Bogleheads® Conference 2023 - Michelle Singletary and Family on Finding Financial Well-Being

00:00:00.000 | (applause)

00:00:05.880 | Take your seats, get comfy.

00:00:08.180 | I am so happy to introduce the McIntyre family to you today.

00:00:13.420 | Many of you were at the 2022 conference

00:00:16.360 | where we had Michelle "Single Terry" McIntyre with us,

00:00:20.520 | and that was the one that we did in the Chicago area.

00:00:23.960 | And we knew she would be great,

00:00:26.100 | but I don't think-- I had not expected how great she would be.

00:00:29.300 | I was literally doubled over laughing

00:00:31.800 | at certain points in time.

00:00:33.140 | I was crying real tears at other points in time.

00:00:37.240 | And when we knew we were doing this conference

00:00:40.980 | in the D.C. area, I reached out to Michelle and said,

00:00:43.580 | "Hey, would you be interested in joining us again?"

00:00:46.580 | And she said, "Well, yeah, I'd love to do it."

00:00:48.420 | And she said, "I'd love to bring my family

00:00:51.420 | "and we can talk about our financial affairs a little bit

00:00:55.720 | "and talk about how we've found harmony

00:00:59.560 | "around financial matters,

00:01:01.260 | "because those of us who are married and have families

00:01:04.000 | "know that it's a process."

00:01:06.400 | So that's what they're gonna talk about today.

00:01:09.600 | Michelle is here in the striped jacket,

00:01:12.480 | and many of you know Michelle "Single Terry,"

00:01:15.780 | but I'll introduce her just in case.

00:01:17.780 | She's the longtime Washington Post financial columnist.

00:01:21.680 | She's nationally syndicated.

00:01:23.160 | We ran into someone yesterday

00:01:24.620 | who said that she is his go-to resource wherever he lives,

00:01:28.720 | I think somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.

00:01:30.560 | So she's everywhere.

00:01:31.860 | She's the author of numerous valuable books,

00:01:34.460 | and she's also won some of the biggest awards

00:01:38.240 | in journalism for her work at the Post.

00:01:41.540 | So in 2021, she won the Gerald Loeb Award for Commentary,

00:01:46.180 | and then in 2022, she won what is widely considered

00:01:50.080 | the biggest award you can win as a journalist,

00:01:53.120 | the Gerald Loeb Lifetime Achievement Award.

00:01:55.980 | So we are really thrilled to have Michelle here.

00:01:59.060 | Her husband Kevin is here, and we know Kevin less well,

00:02:02.160 | but we're very happy that he has volunteered his time

00:02:05.620 | to be with us.

00:02:06.620 | Kevin, I'm hoping you can share

00:02:08.960 | a little bit about your personal story.

00:02:12.400 | It sounds like you've recently retired,

00:02:14.700 | so maybe you can talk about that,

00:02:16.040 | and then we'll hear from daughter Monique, who is 28,

00:02:20.940 | and daughter Jillian, who's 23.

00:02:23.000 | But let's start with you, Kevin.

00:02:24.780 | - Great.

00:02:25.740 | Good afternoon, everyone.

00:02:26.580 | Good evening.

00:02:27.400 | I'm Kevin McIntyre.

00:02:30.420 | I am, let's see, I'm 62 years old.

00:02:33.320 | I am a former federal employee.

00:02:35.340 | I've recently retired at the end of June of this year,

00:02:38.580 | after 30-plus years in the Commerce Department

00:02:43.300 | and the Treasury Department, which is unusual

00:02:45.920 | because my degree is in mechanical engineering,

00:02:48.000 | so how I ended up there is a long story.

00:02:51.000 | And so, like I said, I've just recently retired,

00:02:55.540 | and a lot of, if you've been reading Michelle's columns,

00:02:57.500 | there's a little bit in there about me

00:02:59.000 | and that journey and the stage that we're in right now

00:03:02.240 | in terms of making decisions

00:03:05.280 | to set ourselves up for the future.

00:03:06.980 | So we'll probably get into that a little bit.

00:03:09.580 | - Sounds good.

00:03:10.680 | So, Olivia, maybe you can go next.

00:03:14.620 | - Hi, I'm Olivia.

00:03:15.960 | Like she said, I'm 28.

00:03:18.120 | So right now, I'm working at a group practice

00:03:21.260 | in College Park, Maryland, as a mental health therapist.

00:03:24.500 | I graduated undergrad in 2013,

00:03:28.000 | and then I went and got my, or no, sorry, in 2017,

00:03:31.000 | and then I got my master's in 2019,

00:03:33.740 | and then I spent a year in Texas

00:03:35.740 | working and living with foster children,

00:03:38.040 | and then I came back and started at the practice

00:03:39.780 | that I'm at, and then I just, this past August,

00:03:43.180 | passed my license exam and have my independent license,

00:03:46.160 | so I'm very excited about that, thank you.

00:03:48.220 | (audience applauding)

00:03:50.520 | So now I'm kind of looking into what I wanna do next

00:03:53.800 | with that license, so.

00:03:55.000 | - Hello, hi, I'm Jillian.

00:04:01.700 | I graduated from Towson in 2022,

00:04:05.000 | so last year with a degree in early childhood

00:04:07.240 | and special education.

00:04:09.080 | I'm currently in my second year teaching kindergarten,

00:04:11.440 | and then over the summer,

00:04:12.720 | I taught special needs three-year-olds.

00:04:15.280 | (audience applauding)

00:04:18.440 | Kevin, I'm gonna put you on the spot,

00:04:23.220 | but one of the things we were laughing so hard about

00:04:25.420 | last year was Michelle's thriftiness,

00:04:28.300 | which she described to us in great detail

00:04:30.660 | and made us all laugh.

00:04:32.400 | So would you say you're on the same page with her

00:04:35.200 | with respect to thrift?

00:04:37.300 | - Hmm. (audience laughing)

00:04:43.740 | Ooh, starting off with the tough ones.

00:04:45.880 | So we are of a similar mind.

00:04:48.020 | She is probably more conservative than I am,

00:04:51.980 | but I am also thrifty.

00:04:53.460 | I mean, I think we both came from humble beginnings.

00:04:56.060 | And so we both have a similar mindset about money.

00:05:00.560 | We're both, we both live rather modestly

00:05:03.960 | or believe that that's how we should live,

00:05:05.660 | and so we live below our means.

00:05:07.300 | We both are good savers and investors,

00:05:11.340 | and so, and in terms of the kids,

00:05:15.080 | I think we do agree in terms of what we,

00:05:17.820 | how we would like to talk with them

00:05:20.320 | about their financial futures and that sort of thing,

00:05:22.520 | what we explain to them about our situation.

00:05:24.220 | So yeah, I'd say we're pretty much in sync,

00:05:27.660 | not in lockstep, but in sync.

00:05:29.960 | (audience laughing)

00:05:31.560 | - Can you discuss, have there been any areas

00:05:34.700 | in recent memory where there was a little bit

00:05:36.940 | of a disconnect where one of you wanted to go one way

00:05:39.240 | and the other wanted to go another way?

00:05:41.980 | - From a financial standpoint?

00:05:43.180 | - Yeah.

00:05:44.020 | - Okay.

00:05:44.840 | (audience laughing)

00:05:47.240 | How much time have we got?

00:05:48.680 | (audience laughing)

00:05:51.820 | Well, the thing that comes to mind

00:05:56.200 | most immediately is my retirement.

00:05:57.860 | So I actually retired in June,

00:06:00.160 | and it was a little bit sooner than I was planning to.

00:06:03.200 | I was planning to retire probably at the end of the year,

00:06:05.800 | but there was a difficult situation.

00:06:07.540 | I was in at work, and it was to the point

00:06:10.100 | where I had to do something, either change or retire.

00:06:14.440 | And I didn't really want to, at this stage of my career,

00:06:16.980 | start over into something else.

00:06:19.220 | And so we talked about retirement.

00:06:20.620 | So we went back and forth about,

00:06:22.680 | can you hang on to the end of the year?

00:06:25.280 | And so it was a good conversation

00:06:31.460 | to have leading up to my retirement,

00:06:34.560 | and it's one that we've even continued going forward

00:06:36.740 | because it brought to the surface a lot of things

00:06:39.160 | that we have to think about

00:06:40.800 | for our long-term future in retirement.

00:06:42.980 | So one of the decisions that we made along the way

00:06:46.780 | was that we paid off our mortgage,

00:06:49.420 | because we agreed early on

00:06:51.320 | that we were not gonna retire with a mortgage.

00:06:53.940 | And there's been some discussion around that.

00:06:55.620 | We had a good discussion the other night at dinner,

00:06:57.920 | last night at dinner, about it.

00:06:59.880 | But that was a decision that we made personally.

00:07:02.360 | But even as we agreed on that,

00:07:04.500 | there were other things that we didn't agree on

00:07:07.160 | in terms of, can I afford to leave yet?

00:07:11.040 | Should I hang on to the end of the year,

00:07:12.900 | even after we paid off the mortgage?

00:07:14.940 | Should I hang on and then take the mortgage payments

00:07:17.080 | and put that into a savings account

00:07:18.700 | so we have a little bit of cushion by the time I retire?

00:07:21.140 | And obviously, I retired sooner than that.

00:07:24.680 | (laughs)

00:07:26.920 | So yeah, that was probably the most recent thing

00:07:29.020 | where we had a little bit of intense discussion.

00:07:32.860 | - Yeah, so I wanted to ask about that.

00:07:35.780 | And Michelle and I talked about this separately,

00:07:38.500 | this idea of when you retire,

00:07:41.100 | if you've been a saver your whole life,

00:07:44.560 | your whole career, transitioning into spending mode

00:07:48.560 | or having to tap that portfolio, it feels bad.

00:07:52.340 | So Michelle, maybe you can talk about

00:07:56.340 | kind of making peace with that,

00:07:58.080 | which we all must do eventually.

00:08:00.020 | We're gonna have to, that was the point, right?

00:08:02.740 | That we saved to retire at some point.

00:08:05.860 | So talk about that. - In theory, yeah, in theory.

00:08:09.120 | I love the last panel was Mike said, "Get therapy."

00:08:11.820 | Yes, I'm getting therapy.

00:08:13.360 | (audience laughs)

00:08:15.100 | Kevin was actually kind, because for those of you here,

00:08:19.060 | last year I talked about how I grew up.

00:08:20.900 | And so I grew up with my grandmother who was very frugal.

00:08:24.080 | And I've always had this fear

00:08:26.640 | that I'm not gonna have enough.

00:08:28.600 | And so I actually did write a column

00:08:29.920 | about my husband's gonna retire

00:08:31.080 | and I'm scared we're gonna run out of money

00:08:32.840 | and we're not gonna run out of money.

00:08:34.520 | But it's so hard when you spend your entire life,

00:08:39.520 | your entire existence saving, saving, saving,

00:08:44.960 | denying, denying, denying.

00:08:47.880 | They can tell you some things.

00:08:49.480 | And then all of a sudden people are like,

00:08:51.920 | "Well, you can spend."

00:08:53.120 | And that's actually where we had the most intense fellowship

00:08:56.120 | because he wants to spend the money.

00:08:58.240 | (audience laughs)

00:09:00.880 | I don't wanna spend.

00:09:02.080 | And so he wants to buy something and I'm like, "What, no."

00:09:05.960 | And he'll put something in the Amazon box

00:09:09.160 | and I'll take it out of the Amazon box.

00:09:11.140 | (audience laughs)

00:09:12.480 | And so he says, "Well, honey,

00:09:13.880 | "we spent all this time saving this.

00:09:17.240 | "Let's enjoy it, 'cause we don't wanna leave it to."

00:09:20.960 | (audience laughs)

00:09:23.800 | 'Cause he said, "If we don't enjoy it,

00:09:27.840 | "they're gonna enjoy it."

00:09:30.400 | And so I can't get there.

00:09:32.880 | And I'm not gonna lie, I'm not there yet.

00:09:35.520 | And the only way he is allowed to put stuff

00:09:38.320 | back into the Amazon box is he'll say,

00:09:41.760 | we have phrases that we say in our marriage

00:09:43.760 | to help us not fuss and cuss.

00:09:45.920 | And so he'll say, "Well, let's go to the net worth statement."

00:09:49.600 | I hate that.

00:09:50.920 | (audience laughs)

00:09:52.880 | Because a personal net worth statement,

00:09:55.800 | all the assets and all the liabilities,

00:09:58.060 | and at the bottom half, it's zero, zero, zero,

00:10:00.640 | zero, zero, zero, zero.

00:10:02.120 | And then the net worth, which is,

00:10:05.140 | shh, don't tell him, is considerable.

00:10:08.720 | And so he'll say, "Look at that."

00:10:11.000 | And I just get mad, because then I have to let him

00:10:13.780 | put something back in the Amazon box.

00:10:15.400 | (audience laughs)

00:10:17.680 | But it's very difficult.

00:10:19.200 | And I think Mike was right.

00:10:20.480 | I think those of us who are the aunt,

00:10:23.920 | and that example of the aunt and the grasshopper,

00:10:26.760 | we do have to come to the point where it's okay

00:10:30.840 | to spend some of it and live a life

00:10:34.280 | that you've spent your whole life trying to do.

00:10:37.520 | And what I loved about this conference this whole weekend

00:10:40.080 | is strategies to do that, to make yourself more comfortable.

00:10:44.300 | And I have to say that you really have relieved me.

00:10:49.240 | You've helped me this weekend.

00:10:50.920 | I'm not saying he could buy everything in the Amazon box,

00:10:54.900 | but a couple of more things, because we have a good plan.

00:10:59.640 | - So Michelle, like in addition to getting therapy

00:11:03.140 | or something, what strategies will you use

00:11:06.160 | to help you over this hurdle when you eventually retire

00:11:09.200 | and your income stops altogether?

00:11:11.280 | - Ooh, see that right there?

00:11:12.760 | (audience laughs)

00:11:14.240 | My heart started palpitating.

00:11:15.860 | So I think the whole weekend was like plan, plan, plan.

00:11:22.200 | And so we started retirement planning like 20 years ago,

00:11:27.200 | and I'm not exaggerating.

00:11:29.380 | So one of the big things was to pay the house off.

00:11:32.060 | And I wrote a column about that, and oh my gosh,

00:11:34.220 | people lost their everlasting mind.

00:11:36.940 | Because we used some funds, we did a mortgage recast,

00:11:41.500 | we made extra mortgage payments.

00:11:43.340 | For the entire time we had a mortgage,

00:11:45.740 | we had, now some of you will probably cringe,

00:11:47.700 | we had like a 2.75% mortgage, and people were like,

00:11:50.500 | "How could you give that cheap money?"

00:11:54.040 | And I was like, "Mind your business."

00:11:56.280 | (audience laughs)

00:11:58.040 | So that was one thing to pay off the mortgage.

00:12:00.560 | I like pots.

00:12:02.440 | I'm a pot person, not that kind of pot.

00:12:04.820 | (audience laughs)

00:12:07.360 | Pots, plural.

00:12:08.760 | So we have a travel fund, we've set them up,

00:12:12.560 | we saved enough that none of them have education debt.

00:12:17.320 | They actually even have money to go to grad school.

00:12:20.320 | So we made sure that was okay.

00:12:21.920 | We have a cash fund.

00:12:23.240 | So we have set things to the point

00:12:25.600 | where we know how to pull stuff out.

00:12:28.080 | And so now the next thing

00:12:29.920 | is to do some more tax management, things like that.

00:12:32.360 | So we made sure we keep our expenses in check.

00:12:36.320 | And we just made sure that the groundwork was there

00:12:41.320 | to allow us to spend.

00:12:43.480 | Now I just gotta get the mental thing together.

00:12:46.480 | And I'm not, I'm just not gonna lie.

00:12:48.480 | I'm just not there yet.

00:12:49.600 | He is.

00:12:51.080 | So I don't know.

00:12:53.000 | (laughs)

00:12:55.080 | - So Olivia and Jillian, I wanna bring you into this.

00:12:59.680 | Michelle said that when you were growing up,

00:13:02.080 | there was a lot of like, no, we are saving for,

00:13:06.480 | I want you to graduate college debt-free.

00:13:09.160 | Can you talk about sort of that?

00:13:10.940 | Like you wanted this and your mom and dad

00:13:13.180 | were sort of telling you that you needed

00:13:15.780 | to delay that gratification into the future.

00:13:19.520 | (laughs)

00:13:21.480 | - Yeah, there's lots of stories.

00:13:22.960 | I actually, I don't know what age I was,

00:13:25.500 | but for Christmas or your birthday or something,

00:13:27.980 | we made like a booklet of all the like sayings

00:13:30.340 | that she would say to us like over and over again.

00:13:33.320 | Like, is it a need or a want?

00:13:35.280 | Do you have McDonald's money?

00:13:36.840 | Like, it's a lot of, you know, college fund, college fund.

00:13:41.040 | Like, do you can't have that

00:13:42.120 | 'cause we're paying for your college fund.

00:13:43.240 | Like it was like a lot of stuff

00:13:45.160 | whenever we would ask for things

00:13:47.000 | or just lots of money conversations.

00:13:49.700 | It was pretty intense.

00:13:52.560 | (laughs)

00:13:53.400 | I'm not gonna lie.

00:13:54.240 | It was pretty intense.

00:13:55.800 | It was quite a lot of like money conversations

00:13:58.880 | and a lot of, like she was saying,

00:13:59.720 | like a lot of denying, you know,

00:14:01.360 | like we would get things after it was like not cool

00:14:03.800 | to have them anymore and they were like on sale

00:14:06.700 | or nobody cared about having that thing anymore.

00:14:08.560 | Then we got it and it was like, well, thank you.

00:14:11.240 | And also like, this is maybe three years behind

00:14:15.140 | like what everyone else is doing.

00:14:17.200 | So then we just kind of learned to stop

00:14:19.120 | like paying attention or caring, you know,

00:14:21.440 | about what people were having.

00:14:22.720 | 'Cause we were like, well, we're just not gonna get it.

00:14:24.160 | So you kind of have to like self-soothe

00:14:26.920 | and say that it's fine, you know.

00:14:29.720 | We'll focus on other things, I guess.

00:14:32.400 | - Yeah, I think that I remember

00:14:34.480 | a lot of the rules the most.

00:14:36.240 | Like, I first remember I asked for like

00:14:38.280 | some really elaborate payment

00:14:39.840 | and she got me one that had like a saving,

00:14:42.280 | a spending, an investing, a charity, little spots in them.

00:14:46.240 | So of course I put all of the ones in the savings.

00:14:48.840 | What a 10 year old has to invest, I don't know.

00:14:51.880 | But you know, then I was like,

00:14:52.720 | if you went to the grocery store

00:14:54.520 | and I picked something up and I didn't know the price of it,

00:14:56.880 | what it was, I automatically had to put it back.

00:14:59.160 | So when you started, you had to remember the price

00:15:01.480 | and be like, let me get this, this is 3.25,

00:15:03.840 | I promise I'll open it up.

00:15:05.320 | And then sort of like that kind of stuff, yeah.

00:15:09.960 | - What was sort of the light bulb moment for you?

00:15:12.800 | Like, oh, here's why we're doing this.

00:15:15.320 | Like, when did you feel like

00:15:17.400 | you really got the method to the madness?

00:15:20.300 | - Ooh, it was late, I would say.

00:15:24.180 | I would probably say after graduating college

00:15:29.440 | or maybe sometime in college

00:15:31.260 | and hearing people talk about kind of the loans

00:15:34.000 | and being stressed out about, you know, repayments

00:15:37.200 | and being able to graduate and not have to worry about that,

00:15:40.680 | it really started to click for me

00:15:42.960 | and I could make different decisions

00:15:44.680 | than my friends were making.

00:15:46.680 | And I was like, oh, okay, this has a really big impact.

00:15:49.160 | And especially when I went and got my master's

00:15:51.040 | and that was also debt-free,

00:15:52.200 | like that was like a huge game changer

00:15:54.160 | 'cause I was talking to people in my program

00:15:56.160 | who had undergrad debt and then also had master's debt.

00:16:00.600 | And I went into social work,

00:16:02.600 | which depending on what you do

00:16:04.080 | is not like a super high paying career.

00:16:07.040 | And so a lot of the people in the program

00:16:08.600 | were talking about that and kind of the stress of that

00:16:12.920 | and saying like, well, I have this passion to serve

00:16:15.400 | and I have to go to school and get all of this debt

00:16:18.400 | and then my earning potential when I graduate,

00:16:20.700 | it's a really stressful circumstance for them.

00:16:22.620 | And I just felt so like grateful

00:16:25.440 | that I didn't have to worry about that.

00:16:27.920 | And I think that's when it really started to click like,

00:16:30.480 | oh, okay, maybe, you know,

00:16:32.000 | like all of the silent like resentment,

00:16:34.120 | like, you know, not having the things

00:16:36.960 | like it actually really mattered

00:16:39.280 | and like all of that stuff is kind of irrelevant now

00:16:41.760 | because I'm in a position to have so much more flexibility

00:16:45.080 | and freedom than a lot of my peers.

00:16:47.160 | - Yeah, I would say mine was my experience was similar.

00:16:52.120 | Like I think maybe after my first year in college,

00:16:54.880 | just talking to my peers and like realizing like how much

00:16:58.120 | like they actually had to take out already

00:17:00.120 | just in the first year.

00:17:01.480 | And that was actually when I started thinking like,

00:17:03.700 | oh, what about my master's degree?

00:17:05.360 | So I started applying to scholarships

00:17:07.400 | and then I got full ride in my last three years of school

00:17:10.640 | and I was like, okay, now I can have my master's degree.

00:17:13.560 | So it really just made it like,

00:17:15.320 | I was just thinking much more ahead

00:17:17.400 | just because of like the foundation that we had.

00:17:19.800 | - Yeah, so Kevin and Michelle,

00:17:21.280 | I wanna back up and talk about how it was such a pride,

00:17:24.880 | why it was such a priority for you

00:17:27.680 | to not have your kids emerge from college

00:17:30.560 | with a bunch of debt.

00:17:32.120 | - Yeah, I will have to say we're,

00:17:35.720 | I don't wanna say 'cause we're with our people.

00:17:38.640 | So y'all acquired too.

00:17:39.840 | So, but out there, the abnormal people,

00:17:43.640 | they'll say things like,

00:17:46.040 | well, I'm not gonna pay for them to go to college

00:17:47.920 | 'cause they have to learn how to do it on their own

00:17:49.980 | or those kinds of things.

00:17:51.400 | But my husband and I have to say

00:17:52.920 | from the beginning of our marriage,

00:17:54.220 | we're very intentional about a lot of things,

00:17:56.640 | paying off our mortgage, living below our means

00:17:59.080 | and making sure our kids had the choices

00:18:02.160 | when they graduated from college.

00:18:03.800 | We didn't know obviously what they wanted to do for a living

00:18:06.760 | but we wanted them to operate in their God-given gift.

00:18:11.760 | And that meant we did not push them

00:18:13.840 | into one career or another.

00:18:16.080 | You know, lots of parents, you gotta be a doctor,

00:18:17.360 | gotta be a lawyer, you gotta be this, gotta be that,

00:18:19.200 | you know, or your kid is in sports,

00:18:22.560 | you gotta play all these sports

00:18:23.920 | 'cause you gotta get a scholarship,

00:18:25.000 | you gotta get in the NFL.

00:18:26.240 | And there's so much pressure on that.

00:18:28.400 | And so we wanted them whatever it was

00:18:31.640 | that they wanted to do.

00:18:33.160 | And I think it's a blessing that that one is a teacher,

00:18:36.480 | that she was born to be a teacher.

00:18:39.240 | This one, she tries to tell me what to do.

00:18:42.240 | She is born to be a therapist.

00:18:44.280 | And with the mother she had, she needed to do that, right?

00:18:49.640 | And my son, our son is on the autism spectrum.

00:18:54.840 | And so we didn't of course know that when he was born

00:18:57.640 | but because we were so frugal,

00:18:59.200 | we had the money to be able to help him as well.

00:19:03.320 | And so we wanted them to have the freedom

00:19:06.600 | to do what they wanted to do.

00:19:09.720 | So this one, they're all living with us by choice.

00:19:13.640 | Well, okay, I did kind of force them, we forced them

00:19:16.240 | so that they could save money.

00:19:18.840 | But you know, she now,

00:19:20.280 | she's gonna transition to another job.

00:19:22.880 | So she's gonna take two months to travel.

00:19:25.040 | She's gonna go to Australia, New Zealand.

00:19:27.120 | She wouldn't be able to do that if she had a lot of debt.

00:19:29.480 | This is a time that she can do this.

00:19:31.240 | And this one, her job is so stressful.

00:19:34.000 | Being a teacher is so stressful.

00:19:36.080 | It is one of the most amazing careers.

00:19:39.440 | And now she can do that and not have all the stress

00:19:43.080 | of money and we really wanted that for them.

00:19:46.680 | That was our gift to them.

00:19:49.400 | And so that's why we did that.

00:19:51.360 | We wanted them to be able to not have that.

00:19:54.600 | In order to do that, they had a,

00:19:56.600 | hey, it was not an easy childhood

00:19:59.040 | 'cause they, like she said, they didn't get a lot of stuff.

00:20:01.840 | And we put a lock on our door with a deadbolt

00:20:06.200 | so they don't smother us in our sleep.

00:20:08.800 | (audience laughing)

00:20:11.800 | You know, you can imagine it was not easy living with us

00:20:17.240 | to say no all the time because we have a culture of yes.

00:20:21.200 | And we have a culture of raising entitled children.

00:20:24.080 | And a lot of people in our position, in your position,

00:20:27.280 | maybe not your adult children,

00:20:29.040 | are not very good with money

00:20:31.320 | because they were given everything.

00:20:33.600 | And I think my husband and I can say,

00:20:37.120 | these kids are so good money managers

00:20:40.800 | and they know how to save.

00:20:42.200 | But I'm so glad they're here at this conference

00:20:44.360 | because the next step is to get them to be as enthusiastic

00:20:48.800 | about investing as they are about saving.

00:20:52.280 | And so I'm thanking y'all, talk to them,

00:20:55.320 | especially that one on the end.

00:20:57.160 | (audience laughing)

00:20:58.840 | 'Cause she still, get this,

00:21:00.560 | she still hasn't signed up for her World 3B plan.

00:21:04.480 | So can y'all like, yes, right, right.

00:21:09.480 | Get her, get her.

00:21:13.840 | She's gonna do it, but we, you know,

00:21:17.080 | she's looking through the offerings,

00:21:18.320 | but y'all still get her.

00:21:19.600 | But so that's why, you know,

00:21:22.120 | I mean, you know, we don't come from money.

00:21:25.440 | None of our families has a lot of money

00:21:28.280 | and we wanted our wealth to be worth something for them.

00:21:33.280 | And so, you know, like they will never have a car note.

00:21:38.400 | They don't know what it's like to have debt.

00:21:40.960 | This one is still driving the car that we gave her

00:21:43.480 | when she was 16 years old.

00:21:45.840 | She's 28 and she's gonna, her next car,

00:21:49.400 | she's saving up in a Vanguard non-retirement account

00:21:53.120 | to pay cash for it.

00:21:55.440 | That's amazing.

00:21:56.800 | (audience applauding)

00:21:59.960 | - So I just wanna mention Rick Ferry is walking around,

00:22:07.000 | looks like he's collecting questions

00:22:09.040 | for the McIntyre family, which we will take.

00:22:12.440 | But I just wanna ask Olivia about your savings habits.

00:22:17.680 | Sounds like you're in really good shape,

00:22:19.440 | that you're a discipline saver

00:22:20.920 | and probably doing that not on a high salary.

00:22:23.720 | So let's talk about your tricks of the trade there.

00:22:26.100 | What are you doing?

00:22:27.520 | - I mean, I'm just kind of doing what I was raised to do.

00:22:30.560 | It's actually, it's gotten to the point

00:22:32.280 | where now she's trying to convince me

00:22:33.960 | to spend money on things.

00:22:35.320 | Like if I wanna go on a trip, like for, you know,

00:22:38.280 | my birthday and I was like, oh, like maybe we'll go here.

00:22:40.640 | And they're like, no, like you can go and get the massage.

00:22:42.960 | And I'm like, but the massage is like a hundred dollars.

00:22:45.400 | Like, I don't know.

00:22:46.640 | So I think it's just a lot of the, you know,

00:22:49.540 | like a lot of the no's that I heard in childhood

00:22:52.800 | are now like my own voice.

00:22:54.200 | Like I'm walking around, I'm like, no,

00:22:56.140 | you don't really need that.

00:22:57.480 | Or like, it's fine.

00:22:58.520 | Like, you know, like don't go out to eat.

00:23:00.520 | Like there's stuff in the fridge that you can eat.

00:23:02.840 | And so I think it's just a lot of those little choices.

00:23:06.760 | And then also I've like figured out what it is

00:23:10.800 | that is like really important to me to spend on.

00:23:12.900 | And so I really do enjoy, like she mentioned,

00:23:14.760 | I enjoy traveling a lot.

00:23:16.800 | And so, you know, traveling is really expensive.

00:23:19.560 | And as I get older, I'm less inclined

00:23:22.040 | to like stay in sketchier places.

00:23:24.560 | And so I want to stay in nicer places now.

00:23:26.520 | And so I need to, you know, make sacrifices in other areas

00:23:31.160 | in order to spend on the things

00:23:32.960 | that are really important to me.

00:23:34.520 | And so a lot of those no's are just kind of ingrained

00:23:37.960 | in my head now.

00:23:40.520 | And so it's not like anything extravagant.

00:23:43.600 | I just kind of live on less, I guess,

00:23:46.520 | 'cause that's how I was raised.

00:23:47.840 | What?

00:23:48.680 | How stressed out I am about it?

00:23:54.960 | Yes, it's very stressful.

00:23:58.080 | So I guess two, maybe two years ago,

00:24:01.760 | I was talking to my dad and I was like,

00:24:03.640 | okay, I have like a relatively large,

00:24:06.080 | like lump sum of money that I have saved.

00:24:08.640 | And I was like, oh, like what kind of like savings account

00:24:11.520 | should I put it in?

00:24:12.360 | Like some of them, like you get like a higher investment

00:24:14.680 | or whatever.

00:24:15.520 | And he was like, well, they're all going to be

00:24:16.800 | like really little.

00:24:17.640 | You know, like what you really should do is put it in

00:24:19.760 | like a Vanguard account that we have.

00:24:21.960 | And I was like, okay.

00:24:22.800 | So, I mean, I, you know, to a certain extent,

00:24:24.600 | I trust their judgment.

00:24:25.600 | And so I was like, okay, like, what are you doing?

00:24:28.280 | You know, like tell me what it is that you're doing.

00:24:30.960 | And so he was like, okay, this is what we're doing.

00:24:33.000 | And he was like, okay, these are the, you know,

00:24:34.600 | the funds that you can put the money in.

00:24:36.040 | And I was like, okay.

00:24:38.360 | And so I did it.

00:24:39.680 | And then shortly thereafter, I just started losing money.

00:24:43.560 | And I have been maybe like in the positive for like two

00:24:47.920 | weeks over like the two and a half years, I guess.

00:24:51.880 | And I hate it.

00:24:53.440 | Like, it's really, I hate it a lot.

00:24:56.440 | And they keep, every time I go and I'm like, see,

00:24:58.440 | like, it's like, I'm losing money.

00:25:00.480 | Like if I had just put it in a savings account,

00:25:02.120 | like I would still have all of my money.

00:25:03.520 | And they're like, no, this is the best time.

00:25:05.360 | Like put more money in.

00:25:06.360 | I'm like, this is a scam.

00:25:07.480 | They're scamming me.

00:25:09.200 | Like, I feel like I'm getting robbed.

00:25:11.320 | Like they had me set up automatic payments.

00:25:13.200 | So like every month Vanguard like robs my bank account.

00:25:15.920 | And then they just like, it's really stressful.

00:25:19.560 | And they're like, no, no, no.

00:25:20.400 | Like put more in.

00:25:21.480 | I'm like, this is like a snake oil, like salesman pitch.

00:25:24.560 | Like when things are bad,

00:25:25.680 | that's the best time to put more money in.

00:25:27.520 | Like what kind of logic is that?

00:25:29.680 | It's so backwards.

00:25:32.360 | But because I trust them and like my mom was saying,

00:25:35.240 | like my dad is like the calm one.

00:25:37.440 | Like he's a little more like even keeled.

00:25:39.840 | And so he's like, no, like it's gonna be fine.

00:25:41.720 | Like, just stop looking at it.

00:25:42.960 | Just stop looking at it.

00:25:44.080 | Like you can stop showing us, we know.

00:25:46.760 | And so, because I trust them, I'm like, okay,

00:25:49.280 | I'm not gonna move it.

00:25:50.480 | Like I'm gonna leave it alone.

00:25:52.360 | And then being here and like listening to the talks

00:25:54.840 | and going to the dinner, I'm like, okay,

00:25:56.320 | well there's more people who are bought into this.

00:25:58.520 | And so I'm like, okay, maybe it's okay.

00:26:02.840 | Like maybe it's not just them.

00:26:04.400 | Like there's some other really smart people here

00:26:06.400 | who are also doing the same thing.

00:26:09.360 | So I'm like, all right, it should be fine.

00:26:11.160 | And then, you know, my dad like showed me

00:26:13.360 | kind of the graphs like over time.

00:26:15.000 | 'Cause one of the things I wanna do is retire early.

00:26:17.600 | And so he was kind of putting it in into the projections.

00:26:20.920 | And I was like, oh, that looks really nice.

00:26:22.920 | Like, you know, like, 'cause there's like a calculator

00:26:24.840 | that you can do and like depending on how much you put in,

00:26:27.280 | you can retire at a certain time.

00:26:28.880 | And so after we did that graph, I was like,

00:26:30.240 | okay, let's put a lot in.

00:26:31.320 | Like, you know, like let's put as much

00:26:33.640 | as we possibly can in.

00:26:34.840 | 'Cause I do wanna retire early so I can travel a lot more.

00:26:37.880 | So even though it's like really painful for me emotionally,

00:26:41.400 | like they've been like really good support,

00:26:43.680 | emotional support systems of like,

00:26:45.880 | just leave the money where it is.

00:26:48.280 | And so I'm hoping that they're right.

00:26:50.560 | And when I get older, I will be very happy.

00:26:52.840 | I'm not happy now, but I trust them

00:26:56.240 | that I will be happy later.

00:26:57.720 | And if I'm not, I'm coming for all of you.

00:26:59.680 | (laughing)

00:27:02.640 | So that is where I am in my investment journey.

00:27:06.400 | - So Jillian, how about you?

00:27:07.840 | It sounds like you are, have some reservations too

00:27:11.480 | and you can contribute to a 403(b)

00:27:14.600 | but haven't done so yet.

00:27:17.240 | Is Olivia's attitude rubbing off on you

00:27:20.200 | or what's your hesitation?

00:27:22.960 | - Yes, I think I was more of the notorious one

00:27:26.120 | for like dragging my feet.

00:27:27.800 | I think that I was reflecting on it this weekend

00:27:30.560 | in the past couple of months.

00:27:31.800 | I think part of it is my perspective of like

00:27:34.640 | my future goals and my perspective of time.

00:27:38.400 | Like if somebody asked me, what are your long-term goals?

00:27:42.040 | I would say, oh, well, two years from now,

00:27:44.000 | five years from now, I'm gonna be,

00:27:45.600 | and I think of that as long-term

00:27:47.760 | because if you think of that, that's a quarter of my life.

00:27:51.400 | So I had to shift my perspective

00:27:53.520 | from thinking of like five years from now

00:27:55.360 | as like a short term goal.

00:27:57.200 | I would like my retirement as being a long-term goal

00:28:00.200 | 'cause there's things that I wanna do now.

00:28:02.040 | And then I think kind of, again,

00:28:03.800 | realizing what it is important to me

00:28:05.680 | and what I'm gonna wanna be able to do.

00:28:07.480 | And it's mostly in the lean,

00:28:09.200 | but my parents have been traveling so much

00:28:12.760 | since they retired, so I would like to be able to do that.

00:28:15.760 | So just watching my dad enjoy the fruits of all of it

00:28:19.280 | has kind of like influenced me

00:28:20.960 | into like making the decision to invest.

00:28:23.880 | - What are your, you have like shorter term financial goals

00:28:27.040 | as we all do.

00:28:27.880 | What are the things that you wanna achieve

00:28:29.800 | well before retirement?

00:28:31.400 | - Yeah, so I would like to move out.

00:28:33.360 | Love them, but I would like to move out.

00:28:35.860 | You know, and I would like to maybe not rent

00:28:40.480 | and just buy outright.

00:28:42.200 | And then just be able to support myself like independently

00:28:46.520 | and like have my own growth

00:28:48.360 | would be like my short-term goal right now.

00:28:50.520 | - So Olivia mentioned that Kevin is really calm

00:28:56.220 | with respect to investments.

00:28:58.080 | Are you two on the same page, Michelle,

00:28:59.760 | and Kevin with respect to taking investment risk,

00:29:02.440 | or is one of you more nervous when the market is going down?

00:29:06.060 | - We are on the same page in terms of long-term investing

00:29:12.920 | and have been for a long time.

00:29:14.460 | But in terms of investment risk,

00:29:18.680 | I have a much higher risk tolerance than she does.

00:29:23.040 | And that's probably reflected in our portfolio.

00:29:26.880 | What she brings to the, I think we work well as a team.

00:29:30.080 | What she brings to the table in terms of our investing

00:29:33.760 | is the discipline, the starting early,

00:29:36.680 | the maxing out on the 401(k),

00:29:38.800 | maxing out on the TSP, being consistent over time.

00:29:43.800 | And that's what she brought.

00:29:45.560 | What I brought was, hey,

00:29:47.840 | let's put the pedal to the metal and go.

00:29:49.560 | Let's find those equity investments

00:29:52.360 | that are really gonna do well for us,

00:29:54.040 | put it there and stop looking at it.

00:29:56.040 | Now, I'm okay putting it someplace and not looking at it,

00:29:59.280 | maybe periodically, six months, a year, whatever,

00:30:02.600 | considering that it's long-term.

00:30:04.080 | And I'm thinking back now, 20 years or so

00:30:05.960 | when we first started this.

00:30:07.740 | So she watches it much more frequently than I do.

00:30:11.240 | She watches it probably, I don't know what, monthly or?

00:30:13.980 | So. (laughing)

00:30:17.440 | And yeah, let's go with that, okay.

00:30:19.480 | And so she watches it and she sees it go up and down

00:30:23.200 | and up and down, and it does take a toll

00:30:26.360 | on her mental, on her peace.

00:30:29.120 | And I say, look, set it aside, don't worry about it,

00:30:31.120 | we don't need it right now.

00:30:32.080 | Look, it's down 5%, particularly during 2008.

00:30:36.560 | Oh my goodness, that was really.

00:30:38.920 | But I think one thing that we did

00:30:41.480 | that I'm proud of that we did was we left it alone.

00:30:43.960 | We didn't move anything.

00:30:46.800 | I have friends in the federal government,

00:30:49.280 | we all, TSP, we would talk about

00:30:51.880 | what we're doing with our accounts.

00:30:53.560 | And many of them got out at the bottom,

00:30:57.600 | and they never recovered those losses.

00:31:00.760 | And so I'm really glad that we stayed in,

00:31:03.520 | market recovered and then some.

00:31:05.040 | So I think, but that was a very stressful time

00:31:08.400 | looking at those, we lost probably 30 or 35%

00:31:11.280 | of our portfolio value at that time.

00:31:13.480 | - Yeah, Kevin, I wanted to ask, you mentioned TSP,

00:31:16.840 | and I would imagine there are some

00:31:18.400 | federal government employees here with us.

00:31:20.360 | And a question is like, TSP, I think we would agree

00:31:24.160 | is through a savings plan is really a stellar plan

00:31:28.160 | in so many respects.

00:31:29.560 | Is it something that you think you will continue

00:31:31.640 | to hang on to through retirement?

00:31:33.720 | Or what's your plan there?

00:31:35.840 | - Yeah, at this point, I don't have any plans

00:31:37.800 | to move the money out of TSP.

00:31:39.920 | I think that because TSP has some of the lowest fees,

00:31:45.440 | some of the lowest expenses associated with it,

00:31:48.520 | and there were some changes made recently

00:31:50.680 | that improved some of the flexibilities

00:31:52.640 | in terms of when you can take withdrawals

00:31:55.320 | and that sort of thing.

00:31:56.400 | So right now, it suits our needs.

00:31:59.960 | We don't have a need right now to go in

00:32:01.760 | and start pulling any of it out

00:32:03.040 | because Michelle's still working.

00:32:04.600 | And I get a small federal pension.

00:32:07.960 | And at some point, we're gonna start

00:32:10.120 | taking Social Security, that's been part of,

00:32:12.400 | what's interesting about this weekend

00:32:15.000 | is there's been a fair amount of discussion

00:32:16.560 | about when is the right time to take Social Security.

00:32:19.960 | I'm inclined to take it sooner.

00:32:21.560 | Michelle's inclined to wait until 70 to take it.

00:32:24.600 | And so we're probably gonna compromise

00:32:27.320 | in there somewhere in the middle.

00:32:28.960 | But yeah, I think that's, so far,

00:32:31.320 | I think as far as TSP's concerned,

00:32:33.360 | I'm gonna hang on to it.

00:32:35.240 | - So we've been getting questions.

00:32:37.160 | Here's one for Michelle, which is,

00:32:39.800 | can you summarize the most important financial lessons

00:32:42.640 | you learned from Big Mama

00:32:44.280 | that you passed on to your daughters?

00:32:47.120 | - Well, they can probably answer,

00:32:49.160 | but I will, you wanna answer that?

00:32:50.760 | No?

00:32:51.600 | - Say who Big Mama is for people who don't know.

00:32:54.000 | - I went to go live with my grandmother when I was four.

00:32:58.080 | My oldest sister was eight.

00:32:59.320 | I had a sister who was three

00:33:00.680 | and twin brothers who were just under two years old.

00:33:03.040 | So we went to live with my grandmother.

00:33:05.480 | And my grandfather was in the home, but not in the home.

00:33:09.400 | He was an alcoholic.

00:33:10.880 | So a lot of times his money didn't make it home.

00:33:13.480 | And I don't know, I always tear up at this.

00:33:16.280 | But this woman with an alcoholic husband,

00:33:19.800 | five grandchildren,

00:33:21.680 | a job where she didn't make very much money

00:33:24.920 | as a nursing assistant, was able to save.

00:33:28.400 | And she paid off her house before she retired.

00:33:30.960 | And she just was a masterful money manager.

00:33:35.160 | And I think the one lesson that she taught me

00:33:38.000 | that has just been the root of our wealth

00:33:43.040 | is to save a percentage of every dollar

00:33:48.040 | that crosses your palm.

00:33:49.800 | And I remember,

00:33:51.880 | I don't know if I told you all this story last time,

00:33:54.040 | but when my first week at the Baltimore Evening Sun

00:33:58.280 | as a full-fledged reporter, I covered a major fire.

00:34:03.280 | I got on the front page, that's a big deal in our business.

00:34:06.840 | And I called my grandmother, who do you call first?

00:34:09.560 | And I said, Big Mama, oh my gosh, I'm on the front page

00:34:12.080 | and I'm trying to tell her.

00:34:13.160 | And she said, "Did you go up to HR

00:34:16.880 | "and make sure they took money out of your paycheck

00:34:19.080 | "to put into a savings account?"

00:34:20.920 | (audience laughing)

00:34:23.520 | Uh, no.

00:34:25.040 | And click up.

00:34:27.040 | And I thought she dropped the phone.

00:34:29.520 | So I called her back and I said, "Oh, the phone dropped."

00:34:32.680 | And so I started to tell her again.

00:34:34.240 | I have front page, byline.

00:34:36.120 | And she said, "Did you go up to HR

00:34:41.600 | "and make sure you put money in a savings account?

00:34:44.200 | "You know, you split the deposit."

00:34:45.960 | I said, "Nah, I haven't gotten to that."

00:34:47.440 | Click up.

00:34:48.280 | And so, because I knew my grandmother

00:34:52.360 | would never listen to me, I left that moment,

00:34:56.120 | went up to HR, put money aside,

00:35:01.120 | went back, called her again.

00:35:04.000 | She asked the same question, "Did you?"

00:35:06.160 | I said, "I sure did."

00:35:07.600 | (audience laughing)

00:35:09.880 | And then she said, "Tell me about your day."

00:35:12.080 | (audience laughing)

00:35:15.120 | And that was the beginning of making sure

00:35:18.760 | that every time I got a money from,

00:35:21.240 | you know, we took, I got a buyout from the Evening Sun.

00:35:24.240 | We took all of that money and put it down,

00:35:25.960 | paid for our house.

00:35:27.000 | You know, every time I get anything, we put money aside.

00:35:30.240 | We taught them to do that.

00:35:32.000 | In fact, you know, they used to have an allowance.

00:35:34.240 | They never got the money, 'cause we would make a point.

00:35:37.040 | (audience laughing)

00:35:40.040 | It's rude, right?

00:35:44.360 | I think.

00:35:45.200 | (audience laughing)

00:35:46.400 | Right?

00:35:47.240 | To say like, oh, you're getting whatever,

00:35:48.920 | like $6 or whatever it is, like at a certain interval.

00:35:51.920 | - It was your age.

00:35:52.800 | - Oh, it was your age.

00:35:53.640 | Okay, whatever.

00:35:54.480 | So I was like, you know, okay, you're getting it.

00:35:56.080 | And I'm like, okay, like, where is it?

00:35:58.680 | And they're like, oh, like it's in this account.

00:36:00.640 | I'm like, how do I access the account?

00:36:02.880 | Like, oh, well, you know, we'll talk about it later.

00:36:04.800 | Like, I'm just like, this is technically my money, right?

00:36:08.680 | And so like, I really actually never saw that money.

00:36:11.640 | And then I was like, in college.

00:36:13.280 | And I was like, oh, I need something.

00:36:14.520 | And they're like, oh, your like allowance account.

00:36:16.280 | You can.

00:36:17.120 | I was like, oh, now I can like have the allowance account

00:36:19.040 | for my school.

00:36:20.000 | I was like, okay.

00:36:20.960 | Rude.

00:36:23.200 | - No, yeah, same thing.

00:36:25.200 | I like never saw any of that money, for sure.

00:36:29.440 | I think the biggest thing was just like realizing

00:36:32.240 | like the value of saving.

00:36:33.720 | And again, like using that money for things

00:36:35.920 | that really matter to you later on.

00:36:37.840 | Like I'm not, I don't miss like the McDonald's

00:36:40.680 | that I never got.

00:36:41.520 | Or like this really important like pink Barbie toy

00:36:43.960 | when I was a kid.

00:36:44.800 | But I do still remember like all the really nice vacations

00:36:47.800 | we used to take and like all the Christmas stuff.

00:36:50.720 | So the stuff that was really important,

00:36:52.400 | I never missed out on.

00:36:53.440 | So I just realized that like, you know,

00:36:55.760 | just save it until you have something

00:36:57.760 | that you really truly value that you want.

00:36:59.920 | - Yeah, so I have a question for Olivia and Jillian

00:37:02.880 | that came in and you kind of just answered it,

00:37:04.640 | but maybe you have a different answer.

00:37:06.040 | What was the best or most relevant advice,

00:37:09.320 | financial, I would assume,

00:37:10.760 | or maybe anything that your parents have given you?

00:37:13.400 | - She's looking at me like you go first.

00:37:19.560 | I mean, I guess what Jillian just said

00:37:23.320 | about figuring out what's really important

00:37:25.920 | to spend your money on.

00:37:27.160 | 'Cause I think for a while, like I didn't realize

00:37:31.480 | kind of like where we sat in terms of like middle class

00:37:35.080 | or like upper middle class, whatever.

00:37:36.160 | Like I kind of assumed that we were like not poor,

00:37:39.080 | but I was like, oh, we just must not have money.

00:37:40.600 | Like we must not have a lot.

00:37:43.360 | And then people would be like,

00:37:44.560 | you just said that you went on a two week vacation.

00:37:46.600 | Like, what are you talking about?

00:37:47.560 | Like, your family must be well off.

00:37:48.960 | And I was like, do you see my shoes?

00:37:50.320 | Like, can you see like the pants that I'm wearing?

00:37:53.320 | Like, I don't understand.

00:37:55.080 | And then I guess the older I got, I started to realize like,

00:37:57.440 | oh, well that was, we went on these like

00:37:59.480 | really nice vacations or we had like a nice house,

00:38:02.320 | even though we had a terrible car.

00:38:04.680 | Like the purple van was like, it was really bad, guys.

00:38:08.640 | It was actually really bad.

00:38:10.240 | But like we would have the nice things

00:38:12.320 | 'cause those were the things that were important to spend on.

00:38:14.880 | Like I said, I still have my car.

00:38:16.760 | Her name is Charlotte and I love her to death.

00:38:18.920 | And I will have Charlotte until she like sadly dies on me.

00:38:23.040 | And however long that is, is however long I'll have her.

00:38:25.600 | Because I don't necessarily care about

00:38:27.760 | what kind of car I have.

00:38:29.040 | People laugh 'cause they get in my car

00:38:30.440 | and it doesn't have a backup camera.

00:38:31.760 | And people are like, what's going on?

00:38:32.880 | Like your car doesn't have a, like how do I,

00:38:35.200 | like how do I, you know, like back into the spot?

00:38:37.280 | Like you have to turn around.

00:38:38.360 | Like it's not, like it's not that hard.

00:38:42.440 | But you know, I will have Charlotte, you know, for forever.

00:38:46.400 | But like Jillian said, I'm still living at home as well.

00:38:48.800 | And one of the reasons I made that choice

00:38:50.120 | is because I also want to move out and not have to rent.

00:38:53.400 | And so one of the things that the investment account

00:38:56.080 | that I have that is not doing so well right now

00:38:58.760 | is for is so that I can put a down payment on a house.

00:39:02.160 | I don't have to move out and rent.

00:39:04.640 | And so I think that lesson was really important

00:39:07.120 | in terms of save the money and then spend it

00:39:10.520 | on the things that really matter to you.

00:39:12.600 | - Jillian, how about you?

00:39:15.640 | - Ditto.

00:39:16.480 | Yeah, same thing.

00:39:18.760 | Like the foundation of like that being debt-free

00:39:22.560 | and saving provides you to be able to like

00:39:25.120 | have more opportunities and do things you want

00:39:27.440 | is really important, would be like the biggest lesson.

00:39:30.480 | - So question for Kevin and Michelle.

00:39:33.640 | Were you comfortable sharing what you make

00:39:35.320 | with your children?

00:39:36.840 | If so, at what age?

00:39:38.600 | - I'm not telling them what we make, no.

00:39:43.000 | - That's actually, it's a good question.

00:39:45.000 | So we did not share how much we made for them

00:39:48.720 | for a very long time.

00:39:49.640 | First of all, it wasn't in their business.

00:39:51.360 | And we didn't want them, I mean, in the beginning

00:39:55.000 | of our career, we weren't making that much.

00:39:56.840 | But you know, now we make some good ducats.

00:39:59.120 | And we did not want them to feel as if

00:40:02.400 | they could live a certain way because of what we earned.

00:40:06.200 | So we actually wanted to keep them in the dark

00:40:09.400 | about our wealth.

00:40:11.440 | And they don't, I mean, she will know soon

00:40:14.160 | the totality of it 'cause she's gonna run our estate.

00:40:17.440 | Can I tell y'all something really quick?

00:40:19.480 | I know this is crazy.

00:40:21.000 | So she's gonna be ahead of us.

00:40:23.360 | We have a will, but now we're gonna update it

00:40:25.320 | now that she is 28.

00:40:27.640 | And so we sat down at the table

00:40:30.400 | and we have paid off our home.

00:40:32.400 | And my desire was to have a house

00:40:35.920 | that someone could always live in

00:40:38.280 | and not have to pay rent, right?

00:40:41.000 | And so there's three of them.

00:40:42.560 | So I said, well, all three of y'all could live here,

00:40:44.560 | one of you.

00:40:45.400 | And so this one, go ahead and tell me what you see.

00:40:47.320 | Go ahead, go ahead.

00:40:48.160 | - You want this one?

00:40:49.400 | - So she says, I say, you're not gonna ever sell this house.

00:40:53.080 | You're just gonna use it for the,

00:40:54.280 | and so she said, no, we're gonna sell.

00:40:56.200 | (audience laughs)

00:40:57.040 | I said, you're not gonna sell my house.

00:40:58.400 | She said, no, we're gonna sell.

00:40:59.560 | And so they get along really well.

00:41:01.120 | The siblings are really close.

00:41:02.480 | And so she said, well, but mommy,

00:41:04.120 | we grew up in this house, it's too big for us.

00:41:06.840 | We really don't want it.

00:41:08.560 | If one of us had it for free,

00:41:10.720 | the other two of us might feel some kind of way about that.

00:41:14.480 | And wouldn't it be better to sell it

00:41:16.440 | and divide the proceeds so that we each,

00:41:18.560 | and because we live in this area,

00:41:21.080 | they really could almost buy a house

00:41:22.960 | with the value of our house now,

00:41:24.480 | 'cause we've been in it for a long time.

00:41:26.160 | And she just laid it out like that.

00:41:28.600 | Like, that's what we're gonna do.

00:41:30.080 | And I'm like, you're not gonna sell my house.

00:41:33.320 | Because especially in our community as African-American,

00:41:37.120 | home ownership is just such a prize.

00:41:39.600 | And the idea that she wanted to sell this house

00:41:41.800 | that took us so long to pay off, it just hurt my heart.

00:41:45.520 | But then I realized she was absolutely right.

00:41:47.600 | They can make a different way.

00:41:49.000 | That money can go a long way

00:41:50.760 | for them to be mortgage-free

00:41:54.200 | long before we were mortgage-free.

00:41:56.440 | And it took me a while to understand

00:41:58.880 | that that was okay to let the house go.

00:42:01.360 | So a lot of you all, and maybe not you, but others,

00:42:03.800 | they wanna keep this house that the kids don't want.

00:42:07.400 | And so we said, okay, finally, it's okay.

00:42:09.920 | So then I said, well, okay, you're gonna,

00:42:11.960 | we both wanna be cremated.

00:42:13.480 | I said, well, you're gonna at least have my ashes, right?

00:42:16.200 | Like, you're gonna, you know.

00:42:18.400 | She wants me to wear her ashes in a necklace.

00:42:22.680 | (audience laughing)

00:42:25.760 | I'm not carrying you around like that.

00:42:28.600 | That is so bizarre.

00:42:31.120 | It's not, it's not happening.

00:42:33.440 | - You don't want my house or my ashes.

00:42:35.720 | (audience laughing)

00:42:38.720 | - Just real quickly to add to that.

00:42:47.640 | So, you know, I will repeat what Michelle said

00:42:50.120 | about how much we make,

00:42:51.040 | but how much we have is also a question.

00:42:54.240 | When do we reveal to our children how much we have, right?

00:42:57.160 | And we didn't talk to them about it very much

00:42:59.880 | as they were growing up,

00:43:00.840 | because again, for the same reasons, you know.

00:43:03.240 | But I think at this point, now that they're adults,

00:43:07.120 | we're starting to do that.

00:43:09.000 | And so Olivia knows more probably

00:43:11.280 | than Jillian does at this point.

00:43:12.280 | - Which is like 2%.

00:43:13.960 | - They're making it sound like we have a lot of knowledge.

00:43:16.800 | - We do not know very much.

00:43:19.320 | So like when we have that little conversation,

00:43:21.720 | I'm like very excited.

00:43:22.680 | 'Cause I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get the real information

00:43:25.160 | on like what's going on, yes.

00:43:28.360 | - But I think it's important that we do that,

00:43:30.080 | because I think back to my own situation with my dad.

00:43:32.520 | And this is going back maybe 10 or 11 years.

00:43:34.600 | He lived with us just before he passed away.

00:43:38.480 | And during that time,

00:43:39.840 | we were doing some estate planning for him.

00:43:42.200 | And he was not willing at all to talk about how much he had

00:43:46.480 | and where his assets were and that sort of thing.

00:43:48.600 | So it made it rather difficult for us.

00:43:50.880 | So I resolved in my mind that our kids would know

00:43:55.400 | as we get closer to that time,

00:43:57.160 | so that it's less complicated and easier for them.

00:44:01.200 | So, you know, by his standard, I'm doing pretty well.

00:44:04.080 | You know, that's not really the standard I know

00:44:06.280 | that we want to use for our kids.

00:44:08.120 | But we are now in the stage where I think

00:44:10.920 | we're more willing to talk about what we have,

00:44:14.200 | where it is, what our wishes are and that sort of thing.

00:44:17.480 | So I think it's a process, it's a process.

00:44:20.760 | - A question came in for Olivia and Jillian.

00:44:23.600 | This is a fun one.

00:44:24.800 | When and how have you been able to convince your mother

00:44:27.600 | to spend money she didn't want to spend?

00:44:29.600 | - Have we been able to do that?

00:44:34.640 | - Certainly not, no.

00:44:38.880 | - I don't know.

00:44:40.880 | I think actually, like I said earlier,

00:44:43.560 | I think it's more so that now she's trying to convince us

00:44:46.360 | to spend money on things.

00:44:48.200 | Like I remember, well, I don't know,

00:44:50.360 | I don't know if you have like seen her talk or whatever,

00:44:52.720 | but I wanted a North Face jacket.

00:44:54.480 | And she thinks it's very funny because she said,

00:44:56.280 | "Can I get you a jacket and face you North?"

00:44:58.800 | And ha ha ha, right?

00:45:00.560 | So I really, really wanted a North Face jacket.

00:45:02.440 | And so she's like, "I'm not going to get it for you.

00:45:04.520 | Like you have to save up for it for yourself."

00:45:06.120 | And I remember it was $180.

00:45:08.120 | And I saved up for it and we went into the Nordstrom

00:45:11.320 | and I like got the jacket and I put it on.

00:45:13.360 | I was like, "Yes."

00:45:14.200 | And I was like, "Okay, I have the jacket."

00:45:15.640 | And then we like got closer to the register

00:45:18.000 | and I was like, "Do I really want this jacket?

00:45:20.720 | Like, I don't know."

00:45:22.360 | And she was like, "What do you mean?

00:45:23.400 | Like you saved for it, we drove all this way,

00:45:25.160 | like you like it, it fits, like buy the jacket."

00:45:27.120 | And I was like, "Ah, well, you know,

00:45:29.240 | like I have other jackets, like it'll be fine."

00:45:31.800 | And so I was about to put it back and she was like,

00:45:33.240 | "No, like this is how money works.

00:45:35.360 | Like you saved, you worked for it, like get the jacket."

00:45:39.000 | And so I did, I ultimately got the jacket

00:45:40.880 | and I wore it for a very long time

00:45:42.400 | and then she gave it to Jillian, but it's fine.

00:45:44.840 | (audience laughing)

00:45:46.680 | It's fine, I came home from college

00:45:48.520 | and I was like, "Where's my jacket?"

00:45:49.680 | She's like, "Oh, Jillian has it at Towson."

00:45:51.360 | I'm like, "That is my $180 jacket."

00:45:54.560 | (audience laughing)

00:45:55.560 | But whatever, so I don't necessarily know

00:45:56.960 | if I have any memories of like trying to get her

00:46:01.080 | to like spend something and then she would say no

00:46:02.680 | and then she said yes because she's very determined

00:46:06.400 | when she makes up her mind to like say no,

00:46:10.200 | that there's not a lot of wiggle room on that.

00:46:13.520 | So it's probably the other way around.

00:46:15.320 | - I think that's probably the answer

00:46:17.920 | to why they don't tell me how much they have.

00:46:21.040 | I think my sister gives up, but I think I'm still,

00:46:24.360 | I still have hope that one day I'll ask for something

00:46:26.760 | and it'll be a yes, but maybe not.

00:46:28.600 | But I have very early memories of asking for stuff

00:46:30.720 | and the answer being no,

00:46:32.160 | and I would be trying to try to be very creative.

00:46:34.160 | I think she told the story last year

00:46:35.840 | about the rule with commercials,

00:46:37.560 | where like we were never allowed to buy anything

00:46:40.240 | or she was never gonna get us anything

00:46:41.640 | that we saw on a commercial.

00:46:43.240 | And so I went to her and I really wanted something

00:46:45.880 | and she was like, "Where did you see it?"

00:46:47.520 | And I said, "Oh, you know, I saw it in a dream

00:46:49.920 | "and you know, I want it really bad, you know?"

00:46:53.040 | But I think that if I stop asking for things

00:46:56.280 | then maybe they'll tell me how much they have

00:46:58.360 | and then, you know, we can go from there.

00:47:00.360 | But no, I still have never been able to convince her

00:47:02.520 | to buy anything for us.

00:47:04.360 | - What do we, this is really true.

00:47:06.080 | So we, there is an appropriate time to tell them

00:47:09.440 | and the time is now.

00:47:10.680 | So we are gonna sit down and lay everything out

00:47:13.240 | till we're comfortable because they're ready now.

00:47:15.600 | But a couple of years ago, I think you were in college,

00:47:19.200 | we were sitting at the table, you know,

00:47:20.560 | talking about estate planning.

00:47:21.800 | This is, I know, it's like crazy, right?

00:47:24.120 | This is what we talk at the table.

00:47:25.280 | And so what I was saying, you know,

00:47:27.160 | "Well, your dad and I have some money, you know?"

00:47:29.400 | And she was like, "How much, this one, how much?"

00:47:31.320 | I said, "Well, I'm not gonna tell you."

00:47:32.160 | She said, "Is it a lot?

00:47:33.160 | "Are you rich?"

00:47:34.080 | I said, "Well, you know, some people will say

00:47:35.760 | "that we, you know, do okay, we're well off."

00:47:38.000 | She said, "So when I get the money?"

00:47:39.880 | (audience laughing)

00:47:41.920 | I said, "Well, you know, we're gonna spend it,

00:47:43.280 | "but we're gonna leave you some, you know, money

00:47:45.080 | "when we die."

00:47:46.360 | And she got this look.

00:47:47.960 | And she said, "Oh, when you die."

00:47:51.600 | And I said, "Okay, so I'm telling all of y'all now,

00:47:54.000 | "if I, something happens to me mysteriously, you know,

00:47:58.840 | "send the police that way."

00:48:00.360 | (laughing)

00:48:02.600 | But we try to, we don't, we, they really didn't know.

00:48:06.520 | They thought we were, like, we didn't want them to know

00:48:10.120 | how well off.

00:48:11.920 | And I think one of them did say, "Oh, you're rich."

00:48:14.680 | I said, "No."

00:48:15.680 | She said, "We are rich."

00:48:16.800 | That's what you said.

00:48:17.640 | "We are rich."

00:48:18.480 | I said, "No, you mistaken, we rich."

00:48:20.560 | (audience laughing)

00:48:23.560 | - So there's another question here

00:48:26.280 | that I think is a good one.

00:48:27.480 | "What can I do to educate my college son

00:48:29.880 | "about the realities of money without squashing

00:48:33.440 | "his dream job, keeping him from pursuing his dream job

00:48:37.520 | "of being a zoologist?"

00:48:39.280 | - So are they, do they not want them to be a zoologist?

00:48:43.840 | Is that the-- - Well, maybe it's not

00:48:44.880 | the highest paying job.

00:48:46.400 | They want him to be aware of money,

00:48:49.600 | but still reach for that job

00:48:52.120 | that isn't the highest paying job.

00:48:54.320 | - Well, you might wanna ask them, but I wouldn't do that.

00:48:57.880 | I think you have to let people operate

00:49:02.520 | in the gifting that they were.

00:49:05.240 | I mean, in our culture, it's like STEM, STEM, STEM,

00:49:08.760 | and this, this, this.

00:49:10.840 | But you all have worked a lot your whole life.

00:49:13.720 | I love what I do.

00:49:16.120 | I love being a journalist.

00:49:17.960 | I love writing.

00:49:18.920 | My husband loved being an engineer and then a manager,

00:49:22.200 | and we want that for our children.

00:49:24.760 | Now, what we have taught them is how to live

00:49:27.720 | on a teacher's salary.

00:49:29.280 | What we have taught them is how to live as a therapist.

00:49:32.400 | And maybe they might not make six-figure salaries,

00:49:35.400 | but trust me on that.

00:49:36.400 | They will retire with more money than people

00:49:38.480 | who make six-figure salaries.

00:49:40.400 | And so I, we never steered them.

00:49:43.000 | (audience applauding)

00:49:46.160 | I don't think we ever steered them in a particular.

00:49:50.320 | When she said she wanted to be a teacher,

00:49:52.680 | it was like, it was the proudest moment

00:49:55.400 | because I don't know about you all,

00:49:58.280 | but it was a teacher who changed my life,

00:50:02.000 | and I would not want to rob another child of that.

00:50:05.280 | (audience applauding)

00:50:08.440 | Because it was a teacher who, I won a scholarship

00:50:14.040 | to the University of Maryland at College Park,

00:50:16.160 | and when the scholarship came out because of my background,

00:50:19.040 | I didn't want to apply for it because I thought,

00:50:21.480 | first of all, how are they gonna give it to me?

00:50:23.480 | I come from this broken home.

00:50:25.480 | My grandfather's an alcoholic.

00:50:27.280 | We, you know, we ate, but we didn't have a lot.

00:50:30.760 | I had like a couple of outfits to wear to school.

00:50:32.960 | They're not gonna give this to this little poor kid

00:50:34.840 | from West Baltimore.

00:50:36.440 | And I wouldn't apply for the scholarship.

00:50:38.160 | And she ran me down and hunted me down for weeks.

00:50:42.360 | And finally, she just like took me by the shoulder.

00:50:44.800 | She said, listen, if you apply,

00:50:47.320 | you already have a no if you don't apply.

00:50:49.880 | Imagine if you apply and you get a yes.

00:50:53.160 | And so I applied for the scholarship, 10 finalists.

00:50:56.520 | I was one of 10, two from my school,

00:50:59.000 | and the other person who won from my school

00:51:01.280 | was in a fashion ed club.

00:51:02.920 | She came from a wealthy family,

00:51:04.720 | and it's like, oh, she's gonna get it for real.

00:51:06.600 | And I went down to the son for the interview,

00:51:10.320 | and I just told him, you know, what my life was like,

00:51:12.680 | and I won that scholarship.

00:51:14.720 | And I would have never won that

00:51:16.420 | if it hadn't been for that educator.

00:51:18.480 | So I don't think you discourage your kids.

00:51:20.560 | You just show them how to make money for where they are.

00:51:24.140 | And eventually, if they're good money managers

00:51:26.420 | and they can't quite make it,

00:51:27.800 | they will figure out how to get a second job,

00:51:30.320 | or maybe in their case, all three of our kids living at home.

00:51:33.280 | And everyone is like, oh, you just don't wanna let 'em go,

00:51:35.880 | and you just gotta let 'em be out there.

00:51:38.020 | But my God, they can, she can save, you know,

00:51:41.600 | nearly $1,000 in a non-retirement account, and she's 15%.

00:51:46.000 | She saved, I think this past year,

00:51:48.560 | probably 80% of her salary.

00:51:50.840 | And if I could just get her to sign up

00:51:52.760 | for her 401, 312 rebate.

00:51:55.240 | (audience laughing)

00:51:58.520 | Their brother is the same way.

00:52:00.480 | And so they, you know, it is,

00:52:02.560 | it was intentional for them to live at home.

00:52:04.820 | So instead of, and we don't have anything,

00:52:06.720 | a problem with renting,

00:52:07.920 | but we know that they wanna be homeowners.

00:52:09.600 | So if they stay home long enough

00:52:11.120 | and save 80% of their salary,

00:52:13.280 | when they walk into the door of their house,

00:52:14.960 | their house will be almost half paid off.

00:52:17.560 | What a legacy, if they could be homeowners,

00:52:20.300 | true homeowners, without a mortgage.

00:52:22.800 | By the time they hit their 40s or 50s,

00:52:25.160 | my God, that's life-changing.

00:52:27.320 | And they won't have to worry so much

00:52:29.440 | about spending down their retirement account,

00:52:31.340 | because they removed the most expensive thing

00:52:33.520 | on their budget.

00:52:34.440 | And so don't discourage your kids.

00:52:36.520 | Encourage them, show them, say no.

00:52:39.500 | Say no to your grandkids.

00:52:41.480 | It's not, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a legacy.

00:52:46.480 | You know, this didn't happen by accident.

00:52:49.480 | I am so, we are so proud of these girls.

00:52:53.320 | It didn't happen by accident.

00:52:55.680 | And it wasn't easy.

00:52:57.360 | They are nice and loving and look at them smiling,

00:53:00.080 | but trust me on this, they hated us.

00:53:02.480 | (audience laughing)

00:53:05.000 | Or me, I should say, 'cause their dad is like,

00:53:07.140 | really like, "No, baby."

00:53:08.560 | And I'm like, "Nope."

00:53:09.840 | (audience laughing)

00:53:12.920 | I don't know, did you want to?

00:53:14.480 | - We didn't hate you, that's really intense.

00:53:17.240 | There was a lot of like, what's going on over there?

00:53:19.260 | Like, why are there being, you know,

00:53:20.720 | so annoying about things?

00:53:22.720 | But we didn't like hate them,

00:53:24.120 | 'cause eventually we adjusted, right?

00:53:25.280 | Like kids are really adaptable.

00:53:26.960 | And so I think when they are living under a certain,

00:53:29.800 | you know, rule system or parent household

00:53:32.040 | or like money management system, like they, we adapted.

00:53:34.300 | And so it got to the point where then I started

00:53:36.880 | to look at other people funny when they were judging me

00:53:39.040 | for not having things.

00:53:40.520 | And so then, you know, my mindset shifted over time.

00:53:44.820 | And so like, yes, there were a lot of times

00:53:46.720 | where I was very angry or I didn't understand,

00:53:49.040 | or it was really annoying to be told over and over again,

00:53:51.800 | is that a need or a want, is that a need or a want?

00:53:53.920 | I'm like, I just want it, like, why can't I like just,

00:53:55.960 | I just want it, like, you know,

00:53:57.440 | like I'm not allowed to want things.

00:53:59.240 | But over time, you know, like we came around to it

00:54:03.400 | or it just stopped being something that we,

00:54:04.960 | well, maybe not for Jillian, but I just stopped asking.

00:54:07.000 | So I was like, well, after so many no's,

00:54:08.760 | it's like, okay, fine, I just won't have the thing.

00:54:11.320 | And that's fine.

00:54:12.480 | And so I think it's, you know, just about like trusting

00:54:16.000 | that your kids will adapt to it and then they'll grow up

00:54:18.120 | and eventually, hopefully they'll come around to it.

00:54:21.080 | - Well, McIntyre family,

00:54:23.480 | we are so grateful for you to have come here.

00:54:26.280 | We knew you loved Michelle, but thank you all so much.

00:54:29.840 | (audience applauding)

00:54:33.000 | (audience cheering)

00:54:36.000 | (audience applauding)

00:54:39.160 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Bogleheads® Conference 2023 - Michelle Singletary and Family on Finding Financial Well-Being

Chapters