back to indexAn LSB discussion: NT use of the OT, Bible software, and more
Chapters
0:0 Temple v. Sanctuary.
4:43 The change of brethren to brothers.
8:20 The NT use of the OT.
15:4 Translation decisions in 1 John.
19:23 James 3:1, a breakdown.
20:25 "Of one accord".
22:28 Resources and software used in translating the LSB.
27:2 Messiah v. Christ.
00:00:00.000 |
Well, thank you all for joining us to talk once again about the Legacy Standard Bible. 00:00:09.720 |
The whole translation is in, and as a result of even the Psalms, New Testament, and Proverbs 00:00:16.060 |
coming out, there have been quite a few questions that have come across my desk, so I'm going 00:00:19.920 |
to ask for your help right now to help me answer some of these questions. 00:00:24.440 |
One of them is about the issue of translating the word "temple" in the New Testament, and 00:00:31.160 |
sometimes we have "sanctuary" as opposed to "temple" in some very familiar passages. 00:00:35.200 |
Dr. Varner, can you help us to think through why we did that and why is that important? 00:00:41.680 |
There are actually two words in Greek that render "temple" or "sanctuary," which of course 00:00:49.240 |
refers in the New Testament to what we call the second temple or Herod's temple, the temple 00:00:57.600 |
One is "eiron," which we have tried to consistently translate as "temple," and the other one is 00:01:02.960 |
"naas," which we've tried to consistently translate as "sanctuary." 00:01:11.600 |
"Temple" is a word that describes the entire structure, including an outer courtyard, which 00:01:23.720 |
"Sanctuary" refers to the inner section of the temple, what we call the holy place and 00:01:29.440 |
the holy of holies, the priest's place, and that word "sanctuary" seems to be, at least 00:01:36.640 |
in the New Testament, applying to that inner part of the temple complex. 00:01:41.960 |
A couple of illustrations that might help in that regard is when the Gospels say that 00:01:48.640 |
Jesus cleansed the temple, he did not cleanse the sanctuary. 00:01:54.000 |
He cleansed the outer part of the temple, really the court of the Gentiles. 00:02:02.980 |
So that's where the sellers of animals, that's where the money changers had set up shop, 00:02:13.080 |
So he cleansed that temple from that, from those activities. 00:02:20.200 |
They couldn't have gotten any further into the sanctuary, but they were in the temple 00:02:27.200 |
The sanctuary was where the priests did their work. 00:02:30.720 |
The closest that a layman would come would be to bring a sacrifice to the fence that 00:02:36.520 |
separated the temple of Israel from the temple of the priests, or the sanctuary of the people 00:02:44.600 |
from the sanctuary of the priests, and he would hand the animal over. 00:02:52.560 |
Then Judas betrayed our Lord for the pieces of silver, and then things didn't go as 00:03:00.840 |
he had planned, I believe, and in the garden Jesus was arrested. 00:03:07.900 |
And so it says that he took that money, which had become blood money, and he cast it into 00:03:17.720 |
But actually the Greek says he cast it into the sanctuary, which makes it even more I 00:03:24.880 |
He had gone through the court of the Gentiles with the money. 00:03:29.280 |
He had gone through Nicanor's gate and right up to the fence where a layman could go no 00:03:35.080 |
further and he tossed it over the fence right into the sanctuary of the priests. 00:03:41.800 |
So we've tried to consistently translate and show a distinction between the outer part 00:03:48.080 |
of the temple and the inner part called the sanctuary. 00:03:53.080 |
And I think in later on in the epistles, the word sanctuary is used to even describe us 00:04:01.680 |
And that has particular theological meaning because the Shekinah glory, the presence of 00:04:07.520 |
God was in the sanctuary, and so when we are called the "temple," we're really called the 00:04:13.720 |
sanctuary of the Holy Spirit because in us the Holy Spirit dwells even as he dwelt in 00:04:22.600 |
So there's this deliberate word choice and word distinction between two different terms 00:04:29.000 |
that describe the "temple," but really the temple complex versus the very structure of 00:04:35.520 |
the temple itself, the sanctuary, and by bringing that out, there is a theological significance 00:04:44.720 |
- But while I have you here, let me ask another question, and people have asked me this. 00:04:48.360 |
Why did you guys change brethren to brothers? 00:04:53.640 |
- This was a mini crusade of mine, but you guys got on board with it very, very early. 00:05:02.600 |
There are certain words that I call "church words" that we only use them in church. 00:05:09.960 |
We don't even use them outside church when we're talking with each other, and one of 00:05:17.280 |
Now you tell me, do you ever refer to your male siblings as your brethren? 00:05:25.400 |
But in church, sometimes we refer to our spiritual brothers as "brethren," but the Greek word 00:05:32.080 |
is the same for physical brothers and also for spiritual brothers. 00:05:37.400 |
And if the Greek word is the same, when Paul addresses the brothers in Philippi, the brothers 00:05:45.720 |
in Thessalonica, he's talking about the spiritual brothers, and there's no difference in the 00:05:51.640 |
Greek word, so why don't we keep it as "brothers." 00:05:58.680 |
I don't think we lose any theological or gain anything theologically from it, but we I think 00:06:09.200 |
Now there's something else, Abner, and that is some of modern translations, when they 00:06:15.440 |
come to brothers, because they don't want to eliminate the ladies, they will automatically, 00:06:24.680 |
even though the Greek just says "brothers," say "brothers and sisters." 00:06:28.520 |
We have refused to do that because we know that "brothers" can be collective. 00:06:36.240 |
It's not just referring to male believers in those times when brothers are addressed 00:06:44.460 |
It is "brothers and sisters," but it's just one word. 00:06:49.600 |
But in James chapter 2, when James wants to specifically address brothers and sisters, 00:06:58.600 |
If you see a brother or a sister in need, but he adds the Greek word "sister." 00:07:06.140 |
So when the New Testament writers wanted to include sisters, they included the word "sister." 00:07:15.640 |
So I think it's not only getting away from just a churchy word, brethren, but it's also 00:07:25.560 |
And also, can we leave something to the preacher and teacher, who should come to the word "brothers" 00:07:32.640 |
and remind the congregation that these spiritual brothers include male and female believers 00:07:42.280 |
So let's leave some choice to the preacher or teacher to bring that out. 00:07:49.760 |
So I think, well, I think we did the right thing in keeping it to "brothers." 00:07:55.560 |
Yeah, that's what the text says, and that actually by keeping it not only with the translation 00:08:01.560 |
of "brothers," but not including "and sisters" as a gloss on top of that brings out when 00:08:11.120 |
There's a deliberateness to that that is lost if you always just translate the gloss with 00:08:17.480 |
So this is, I think this is a very important observation. 00:08:20.340 |
One of the other questions that have popped across my desk is the New Testament's use 00:08:23.760 |
of the old and how we signify that in the legacy standard, following the NASB with some 00:08:31.200 |
But people have been wondering, "Where have you done more? 00:08:34.880 |
So Jason, why don't you begin by helping us identify some of those, and then Paul, you 00:08:42.600 |
One that sticks out, I think, for me is Luke chapter 12, verse 35. 00:08:49.280 |
This one actually hits a couple different points that we wanted to draw out, in particular 00:08:55.720 |
the Old Testament and the New, but several others even just having a window into the 00:09:00.000 |
text that we've been kind of encouraging to do that. 00:09:03.560 |
"Gird up your loins" seems like an old expression. 00:09:07.600 |
Most people don't talk about girding up your loins, and in fact, some of the translations 00:09:12.360 |
just simply render it ready for service, ready for action. 00:09:17.160 |
But we translated it "gird up your loins" in particular because it was a quotation from 00:09:25.280 |
And both contexts have this idea of being prepared and ready to act when God will deliver 00:09:32.880 |
So in Luke 12, 35 through 40, Christ is talking about His return, and when the Son of Man 00:09:41.000 |
comes at an hour that you don't expect, and He uses terms like "waiting" and "ready" and 00:09:48.080 |
And so we translated that, what other translations would simply try to help the reader understand 00:09:58.840 |
We wanted to go back because there's not only a connection back to the Old Testament in 00:10:04.040 |
which the Israelites were being told to be ready and prepared and waiting for the deliverance 00:10:11.920 |
that Yahweh would bring, Christ points back to that in the same context of His second 00:10:19.280 |
coming and His disciples being ready for that deliverance. 00:10:24.720 |
And then there's also a wordplay on that that you lose if you don't translate that. 00:10:29.200 |
Not only do you lose that Old Testament quotation, which we rendered in small caps, but you have 00:10:34.800 |
this idea of where Christ is saying, "Gird up your loins and keep your lamps lit." 00:10:40.920 |
And waiting for the Master to return, and when He comes you open up the door and then 00:10:46.120 |
it says in verse 37, "Blessed are those slaves whom the Master will find awake when He comes 00:10:51.440 |
truly I say to you that He will gird Himself to serve and to have them recline at the table." 00:10:57.040 |
And so the expectation is the servants are ready and they're girded, meaning their robes 00:11:02.480 |
are wrapped up and ready for service, ready for work. 00:11:05.420 |
And when the Master comes, you would anticipate that it would be the servants who are serving, 00:11:11.680 |
and yet it's the Master when He returns, the one who will serve. 00:11:15.720 |
And this eschatological banquet of this dinner table. 00:11:20.200 |
So there's just a lot of, I think, nuances there that by simply having a window into 00:11:25.520 |
the text of girding up your loins, connecting it back into Exodus, there's a lot of, I think, 00:11:32.160 |
depth that the average reader might miss that I think we're trying to help give some insight 00:11:40.040 |
Yeah, if you honor the text, the text is so sophisticated, the text is so rich. 00:11:47.240 |
All these implications, not just like you just pointed out of connecting back with the 00:11:51.000 |
Old Testament, but connecting within the passage itself, there's so much theology that comes 00:12:01.200 |
Another one that comes to mind, sticking with Luke, the author, now in the book of Acts, 00:12:07.640 |
in chapter 1, verse 8, Jesus gives the disciples their blueprint, their mission. 00:12:13.960 |
And He says that you're to preach the gospel, you're to be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea 00:12:22.200 |
And we've capitalized that last phrase, "to the end of the earth," believing it to be 00:12:26.280 |
an intentional quotation of the Old Testament scriptures. 00:12:35.720 |
As you read through the book of Acts, what you start to see is a theology where Luke 00:12:40.560 |
is intentionally portraying the apostles' ministry in the likeness of the servant. 00:12:47.000 |
So he's not only drawing arcs back to his gospel, he's doing that, and showing these 00:12:52.560 |
apostles are simply carrying on the ministry of the Lord Jesus. 00:12:56.600 |
A lot of things that happens to them happen to Christ, a lot of things they do are similar 00:13:02.840 |
He's drawing those arcs, but in addition, he's drawing arcs all the way back to Isaiah. 00:13:08.760 |
And he's trying to stress, I think, that this mission, this gospel mission, is one that 00:13:16.000 |
is advanced through suffering, the suffering that we see in Isaiah. 00:13:21.560 |
And so that term, "the end of the earth," it's found in a number of places in the Old 00:13:24.520 |
Testament, but it is found in one of the servant songs. 00:13:27.720 |
And so as Jesus gives the blueprint to the apostles, "This is what you're going to do," 00:13:32.760 |
he's not simply giving them geographical locations. 00:13:36.920 |
We tend to think of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and the end of the earth as just a geographical 00:13:47.320 |
I mean, think about the fact Jerusalem's a city, Judea and Samaria's a region with certain 00:13:52.680 |
connotations because of the Samaritans and their relationship with the Jews. 00:13:57.080 |
And then you get the end of the earth, not simply the extremity, but to the Gentiles. 00:14:04.240 |
And as we know from the book of Isaiah, that was the servant's ministry. 00:14:08.520 |
The glory of the Lord is too great to be contained within Israel. 00:14:11.880 |
It's to go out to the Gentiles, and we understand from Isaiah 53 that the means by which that 00:14:20.480 |
And so it is a hint, and it gets developed as you read through the book of Acts. 00:14:25.480 |
That theology gets developed, but we believe that in that first chapter there's just the 00:14:30.680 |
first subtle hint that this book, the book of Acts, is going to be one that portrays 00:14:37.520 |
the apostles in the likeness of the servant, particularly with reference to his suffering. 00:14:43.520 |
And so it's in capitals as an indication that it's drawing from Old Testament theology there. 00:14:49.560 |
And that's so rich because that indication draws from the Old Testament the way you just 00:14:54.760 |
said, and it draws a very deep and rich and broad theology into and incorporate into the 00:15:03.840 |
Paul, while I have you, you have talked about and we've talked about some other translational 00:15:10.100 |
decisions that kind of bring out some nuance in 1 John. 00:15:16.600 |
So if we jump over then to 1 John, and I think what we're talking about here is a more literal 00:15:24.020 |
rendering of something that John says, which I remember we kind of deliberated over this 00:15:30.460 |
for some time because it's difficult to bring out in the English, and the tendency would 00:15:35.880 |
be to find a synonym, but when you do that you lose what John is doing. 00:15:40.680 |
So I'm in 1 John chapter 5 here, and John says, verse 1, "Everyone who believes that 00:15:49.120 |
Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the one who gives new 00:15:54.800 |
birth loves also the one who has been born of him." 00:15:59.680 |
And it sounds maybe a little bit convoluted, and I think if you check other translations 00:16:04.400 |
that second half of the verse will make reference to the Father and to those who have been born 00:16:09.080 |
of him, which is a good translation, and it captures the essence. 00:16:14.360 |
The problem is you miss the play that John makes on the verb to beget, to give birth. 00:16:22.640 |
So the verse would read, perhaps even more literally, "Everyone who loves the one who 00:16:27.640 |
begets, the begetting one, God the Father, also loves the one who has been begotten, 00:16:38.600 |
And I think what our translation does, it draws out that subtle play that John is making 00:16:46.980 |
on this concept of the new birth, which again plays into the theology of this letter. 00:16:54.480 |
When we understand who we are, we're those that have been privileged, we've received 00:16:59.640 |
the new birth, and when I understand that about myself and about you, you're one that's 00:17:04.560 |
received the new birth and so am I, how can I not love you? 00:17:09.080 |
How can I not love you as an expression of my love for the one who gave me the new birth? 00:17:16.440 |
We're caught up in this theology of the new birth, and John brings that out by refusing 00:17:23.440 |
to simply say "Father" and "Children of God," but just to keep using that one verb, "genao," 00:17:30.460 |
to give birth in this one verse, and so we tried to do that. 00:17:34.700 |
And then just a few verses later, another one that we really tried hard to bring out 00:17:40.520 |
what John's doing, in verse four, he says, "For everything that has been born of God 00:17:45.240 |
overcomes the world, and this is the overcoming that has overcome the world, our faith." 00:17:51.320 |
Again, it sounds convoluted, and perhaps the more straightforward path is to find synonyms. 00:17:59.520 |
But John is intentionally using this one verb, "genao," to overcome, to conquer, and he's 00:18:20.200 |
And when you see that intentional persistence with this one verb, "to conquer," you understand 00:18:32.420 |
When you've received the new birth, you are no longer enslaved to sin, period. 00:18:38.800 |
Sin is not going to triumph in your life, ultimately. 00:18:42.140 |
And he wants to communicate that as a great encouragement to his readers, and we tried 00:18:45.360 |
to bring that out by also persisting with one English verb here, "to overcome." 00:18:52.840 |
That's really helpful, and I think when we bring out what is already there, I think that's 00:19:00.660 |
We areā¦there is a reason for it, not just on a translation philosophy side, but really 00:19:05.000 |
on a bibliology side, because we believe that the Bible is inspired and that we don't improve 00:19:13.200 |
We just deliver what it is, and it in and of itself has it, and there is significance 00:19:18.100 |
in every word choice, every decision that the Scriptures make. 00:19:21.640 |
Along that line, people sometimes wonder about James 3.1, and they say, "Oh, you kind of 00:19:30.120 |
Let not many of you brothers or brethren or whatnot become teachers," but we translate 00:19:36.160 |
it with a more direct imperative, "Do not become teachers, many of you." 00:19:43.880 |
Well, "Let someone not become this" is a more indirect imperative. 00:19:49.000 |
It would be more of a third-person kind of imperative, but James is not trying to skirt 00:19:55.500 |
He is making a demand directly to his readers that many of them, many of you, you may never 00:20:05.120 |
You do not become this way, and we didn't want to lose that force because that's James's 00:20:12.200 |
And so these are the kinds of decisions where I almost describe it like Simon says. 00:20:18.220 |
The author says it this way, so we do it that way, but we don't really have an option, 00:20:24.880 |
Dr. Varner, help us think through another one of these kind of consistency word issues, 00:20:35.160 |
Well, you know, I like to use silly puns to keep my students' attention, and here's one 00:20:41.240 |
The King James, and we do too, say that all the believers were in one accord, and the 00:20:47.360 |
silly thing is there are Hondas in the Bible, a Honda accord. 00:20:52.420 |
And well, apart from the silliness, accord is a good word. 00:20:56.720 |
It means together, one accord, one mind, one purpose. 00:21:02.320 |
We've tried to consistently translate that word, hamathumadon, and one accord. 00:21:07.360 |
Actually, we do it more often with one accord, same meaning. 00:21:12.740 |
It appears 10 times in the book of Acts, six times a positive statement. 00:21:17.720 |
All the believers were together with one accord. 00:21:21.120 |
Four times in a negative way, the enemies of Stephen rose up against him with one accord. 00:21:28.440 |
So 10 times it appears in the book of Acts, and we've tried to consistently translate 00:21:34.440 |
it with one accord, while other versions will mix with one mind, with one purpose. 00:21:41.580 |
But Luke used the same word, and I think we should translate it that way. 00:21:47.620 |
It does appear one time out of the book of Acts, Paul uses it, that with one accord, 00:21:54.800 |
Jews and Gentiles might glorify God, Romans 15, 6. 00:22:02.740 |
So I think in translating it with one accord, we've done honor to Luke and to Paul, and 00:22:10.300 |
brought out that it can be with one bad accord or evil accord, and it can be with one good 00:22:19.480 |
- And the reader will know that's the same word. 00:22:29.800 |
Are there any materials, this is another question people have, are there any materials, new 00:22:34.120 |
kinds of research that really helped you all, us all in the process of translating and updating 00:22:42.360 |
the New American Standard to the Legacy Standard Bible, were there specific resources that 00:22:53.120 |
This might be a little bit of a repetition, but in Textual Criticism, we are the first 00:22:58.000 |
English translation to have access to not just one Greek New Testament, but three editions 00:23:05.700 |
of the Greek New Testament, the Nestle-Alan, the SBL Greek New Testament, and the Tyndale 00:23:11.060 |
House Greek New Testament, that was done in a city called Cambridge, so we have access 00:23:21.560 |
Now, Textual Criticism can be boring to a lot of people, I understand that, but we are 00:23:27.880 |
not just depending on one group, say, of German Text Critics, we have an American Text Critic 00:23:35.080 |
and British Text Critics to compare and see, and I think while we have stayed with the 00:23:42.220 |
Nestle-Alan reading most of the time, we've been able to benefit from the scholarship 00:23:48.400 |
I just heard an American Text Critic say yesterday in Mark 1-1, the beginning of the Gospel of 00:23:55.840 |
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, there are some manuscripts that don't have Son of God. 00:24:02.920 |
We retain that, and not only do manuscripts support it, but internally that's supported 00:24:10.040 |
because Son of God is a major theme in the Gospel of Mark. 00:24:15.740 |
At the beginning, and then towards the end, the Centurion says, "Certainly this was 00:24:24.580 |
So at the beginning and the end of the Gospel of Mark. 00:24:28.080 |
So not only do the manuscripts support the inclusion of these words, but internally, 00:24:35.560 |
what's called internal evidence, supports the inclusion of those words as well. 00:24:40.360 |
Yeah, I'm thinking from a Hebrew side, we had access to at least part of things of like 00:24:46.560 |
BHQ, Biblia Hebraica Quinta, and did you guys, and this is just me asking off the cuff, did 00:24:56.320 |
We, I mean, our meetings were on Logos, and then I would always have my accordance as 00:25:03.040 |
And yeah, I just always ponder what it would have been like to undertake such a project 00:25:14.440 |
And so I was very, very thankful for the resources that we had, but also just the quick and ready 00:25:21.240 |
- And I think we're also drawing on just a wealth of research that we've done in the 00:25:26.720 |
I'm thinking of issues in Romans, and Luke, I had read some articles by Gathercol, and 00:25:33.040 |
we incorporated that research in our commentary on John by Carson and certain lexical issues 00:25:39.080 |
that he raised there, and we tried to wrestle through and how to process that. 00:25:43.600 |
And I know both of you are in the process of dissertation work, and so you guys brought 00:25:50.220 |
a lot of those insights into the mix as well. 00:25:53.080 |
So yeah, there, I think there was a lot, a lot of just a wealth of research that comes 00:25:57.960 |
in a lifetime study that comes into Bible translation, and that's important to note. 00:26:04.440 |
We're just thankful for a lot of people who have done a lot of hard work and invested 00:26:08.320 |
- And the quick access that we have to all of that at the fingertips, that is, you know, 00:26:13.360 |
you could potentially have to stop and go and go to libraries and things like that, 00:26:18.200 |
but with us and the ability, the benefit of having COVID shut down where we were really 00:26:24.160 |
isolated in our homes, the software was really helpful, Logos, and I still am an old user 00:26:31.820 |
It's still working for me, as well as Accordance and those things. 00:26:37.280 |
- Yeah, I had BibleWorks and Accordance on my screen, and every verse I was comparing. 00:26:43.520 |
I could see the Greek, I could see three or four or five translations that we could compare 00:26:49.240 |
It was very, very helpful, and I'm glad to see that Accordance, and I use Accordance 00:26:55.480 |
every day now with the LSB being part of the Accordance modules. 00:27:01.960 |
- And I think this just kind of brings us full circle back to the whole idea of why 00:27:13.000 |
It's based upon the author's decision, and that kind of even ties into a question that 00:27:18.080 |
people have, which is, "Why did you translate Messiah in some places, even in the New Testament 00:27:23.960 |
at times, but Christ predominantly in the New Testament, and yet in the Old Testament, 00:27:32.600 |
And it goes back to the same principle, which is, we say what the text says. 00:27:38.520 |
John sometimes has the word Messiah transliterated, and when he does that, we say it. 00:27:44.120 |
And when Christ is used, the Greek word there, we reflect that. 00:27:48.000 |
And that's kind of the overriding principle there. 00:27:53.920 |
We're trying to do as much research as we can into them so that what comes forth is 00:27:59.040 |
not our opinion, but rather a window into what exactly was going on, represented correctly 00:28:07.440 |
from the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic of the Scriptures. 00:28:12.840 |
Thank you guys for your great work on this, and thank you for answering these questions.