Michael Malice: Freedom, Hope, and Happiness Amidst Chaos

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his second time on the podcast.

00:00:04.560 | He's an anarchist, political thinker, podcaster and author.

00:00:09.560 | He wrote Dear Reader, which is a book on North Korea, and The New Right,

00:00:15.440 | a book on the various ideological movements at the fringe of American politics.

00:00:20.360 | He hosts the podcast called You're Welcome, spelled Y-O-U-R.

00:00:25.560 | And in general, there's a lot of live shows on YouTube

00:00:29.080 | that are at times profoundly absurd and at other times absurdly profound

00:00:34.920 | and always full of humor and wisdom.

00:00:37.800 | He is the Joker to my Batman and the caviar to my vodka.

00:00:43.040 | His masterful dance between dark humor and difficult, even dangerous ideas

00:00:49.560 | challenges me to think deeply about this world.

00:00:52.240 | And when that fails, at least smile and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all.

00:00:58.400 | This episode has much of that.

00:01:00.200 | His outfit, for example, the exact inverse of mine

00:01:05.720 | with a white suit and a black shirt is just one example of that,

00:01:12.120 | of the humor, trolling and brilliance that is Michael Malice.

00:01:17.200 | Quick mention of our sponsors, NetSuite, business management software,

00:01:24.120 | Athletic Greens, all in one nutrition drink, Sun Basket, meal delivery service and Cash App.

00:01:31.360 | So the choice is success, health, food or money.

00:01:37.720 | Choose wisely, my friends.

00:01:39.760 | And if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount and to support this podcast.

00:01:45.080 | As a side note, let me say that Michael is in many ways a man of radical ideas,

00:01:52.000 | but also a man with kindness in his heart.

00:01:54.600 | Those two things are great ingredients for a fascinating conversation.

00:01:59.200 | I hope to have several such people on this podcast this upcoming year

00:02:03.120 | who also have radical ideas about politics, science, technology and life.

00:02:08.760 | At times, often perhaps, I might fail at asking the challenging questions

00:02:14.200 | that should be asked, but I will try my best to do so

00:02:17.400 | and hope to keep improving every time.

00:02:20.400 | Mostly, I come to these conversations with an open mind and with love.

00:02:24.760 | Unfortunately, that kind of approach can be taken advantage of in many ways.

00:02:28.760 | It can be used by reporters or just people online later to highlight how or why

00:02:34.520 | I'm ignorant or worse, I'm generally not a good human being.

00:02:38.960 | In the context of this, I have two options.

00:02:41.720 | I could either be cautious and afraid or second, be kind, thoughtful and fearless.

00:02:48.440 | I choose the latter, hopefully while still being open, fragile and empathetic.

00:02:53.480 | Again, I strive to be like the main character of The Idiot by Dostoevsky.

00:02:58.480 | That's my New Year's resolution.

00:03:01.280 | Be kind and do difficult things, difficult conversations,

00:03:05.080 | difficult research projects and difficult entrepreneurial adventures.

00:03:09.800 | If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts,

00:03:14.680 | follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon or connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman.

00:03:19.920 | And now here's my conversation with Michael Malice.

00:03:24.160 | Knock, knock.

00:03:26.000 | You're stealing my bed?

00:03:28.880 | I'll kill your family.

00:03:30.000 | That's not how a knock-knock joke works.

00:03:34.480 | Knock, knock, Michael.

00:03:35.920 | You don't do knock-knock jokes with Russians.

00:03:37.800 | Because if we have to knock at the door,

00:03:39.640 | turn down the TV, you got to sit quiet.

00:03:44.040 | We hope they go away.

00:03:45.320 | You don't do that back in the Netherlands.

00:03:48.120 | You know this.

00:03:48.960 | It's triggering.

00:03:49.560 | Who's there?

00:03:50.160 | I can't even do it now.

00:03:52.920 | Knock, knock.

00:03:54.440 | Who's there?

00:03:55.320 | Leon.

00:03:56.920 | Leon who?

00:03:58.000 | Leon me when you're not strong, Michael.

00:04:00.520 | Well, that will never happen.

00:04:02.440 | I stole elegantly, eloquently that joke from you.

00:04:07.280 | The lie detector term.

00:04:09.200 | That was a lie.

00:04:10.040 | Elegantly and eloquently.

00:04:11.320 | Well.

00:04:11.840 | Yeah, you crossed it on a sheet of paper.

00:04:17.200 | That means it's real.

00:04:18.480 | The reason I bring it up is because you had the guts,

00:04:21.560 | the brilliance to do a knock-knock joke.

00:04:25.240 | Not once, but three times with Alex Jones.

00:04:28.160 | I think it was like six.

00:04:29.160 | I had a runner.

00:04:29.880 | OK.

00:04:30.880 | Maybe they started to sort of melt together in this beautiful

00:04:35.000 | art form that you've created, which is like these kind,

00:04:38.680 | loving knock-knock jokes with Alex Jones.

00:04:41.120 | So you got a chance to meet him and talk to them twice with

00:04:44.440 | Tim Pool.

00:04:45.280 | Yeah.

00:04:45.720 | In a long form conversation.

00:04:48.400 | What was it like talking to Alex Jones, both on the deep

00:04:54.560 | philosophical, intellectual level and staring the man in his eyes

00:05:00.160 | and doing a knock-knock joke about Olive.

00:05:04.000 | Knock, knock.

00:05:04.720 | Who's there?

00:05:05.320 | Olive.

00:05:05.880 | I love you, Alex.

00:05:07.040 | Well, there's a lot to explain.

00:05:10.880 | Where do you start?

00:05:12.160 | I've been on his show, InfoWars, a few times when I was

00:05:15.240 | researching my book, Then You Write.

00:05:16.920 | So I had had conversations with him before.

00:05:20.000 | One of the things that I appreciate about Alex is he is a

00:05:23.480 | lot more self-aware than people think and has a good sense of

00:05:27.040 | humor.

00:05:27.440 | And I also like a good twist ending.

00:05:31.640 | So if you set people up and all these jokes are these kind of

00:05:35.680 | vapid, you know, all of you jokes, and the last one's about

00:05:38.960 | building seven, they're not going to see that one coming, nor

00:05:42.120 | will he see that one coming.

00:05:43.320 | I even had another one about Sandy Hook, which I didn't do on

00:05:45.800 | the air because he was being like a good sport.

00:05:48.240 | So I didn't, but that was the dagger that was kind of behind

00:05:51.000 | my back if necessary.

00:05:52.160 | But it was a good mechanism toward, I like it when things

00:05:56.200 | work on several levels.

00:05:57.160 | It was also a good mechanism to keep kind of the conversation

00:06:01.840 | guarded.

00:06:02.480 | And this every so often, this is kind of hitting the control,

00:06:05.040 | delete and bring it down to a certain point of calmness.

00:06:10.800 | What about the love thing?

00:06:12.200 | I mean, you're saying that that was a buildup to the dagger,

00:06:16.200 | but it was also somehow really refreshing to get that little

00:06:21.480 | jolt, like that pause.

00:06:23.440 | You don't get that in conversations often.

00:06:25.520 | Like I'm a huge fan of Rogan and he'll have a three hour

00:06:28.560 | conversation, but at some point just pause and be like, I love

00:06:34.320 | you, man.

00:06:35.480 | Like it's in the cheesiest way possible because that seems

00:06:39.960 | to be, it somehow hits the hardest then.

00:06:42.880 | I don't know.

00:06:43.680 | I don't know you didn't intend it that way, but with Alex

00:06:46.400 | Jones to sit there and to say, I love you.

00:06:49.720 | That was like that.

00:06:52.280 | I just haven't never heard that before.

00:06:54.640 | And so it struck me as like, not just funny for what you're

00:06:57.960 | doing, but just like, whoa, we just took, because conversations

00:07:02.440 | are all about like this ranting, especially with Alex Jones,

00:07:05.000 | just like ranting about this or that, this part of the world.

00:07:08.240 | Like, can you believe this shit?

00:07:09.400 | That kind of thing.

00:07:10.080 | But like to pause and be like, this is awesome.

00:07:12.840 | I don't know if you felt that way, but.

00:07:14.800 | Oh, I definitely felt that way.

00:07:16.160 | So it was actually very fun.

00:07:17.040 | I'll give you the backstory of how that happened.

00:07:18.760 | It was, it was, it was silly because Tim calls me up and

00:07:24.400 | there's this expression in marketing, don't go past the sale.

00:07:27.080 | Right.

00:07:27.400 | So if you're trying to sell someone a car and you're like,

00:07:29.960 | it's got this feature, this feature, that feature.

00:07:32.160 | And they're like, you know what?

00:07:33.040 | I'm going to buy the car.

00:07:34.040 | If you keep talking, you can only make them lose the sale.

00:07:37.800 | You just get them to sign and get, get out of Dodge.

00:07:40.280 | So Tim calls me up and he goes, okay, uh, here's what we're thinking.

00:07:46.000 | This is top secret.

00:07:47.960 | Alex is going to be on the show.

00:07:49.520 | We want you on as well.

00:07:51.080 | And I've never said yes to anything as quickly in my life.

00:07:53.680 | Um, and then he keeps talking and I'm like, Tim, this, you

00:07:57.520 | don't have to sell it.

00:07:58.160 | I interrupted him.

00:07:58.960 | I go, you don't have to sell it.

00:07:59.960 | Why are you by the way?

00:08:01.520 | I think because, um, I am kind of an agent of chaos and Alex is in his own way, an

00:08:08.800 | agent of chaos and what is provides an opportunity in this kind of news media

00:08:14.240 | space that you and I travel in.

00:08:15.640 | It's the kind of things where none of us three, you know, as we said on the

00:08:20.000 | show, knew what it would be like.

00:08:21.880 | If you, you know, to certain within certain parameters, what, you know,

00:08:27.080 | Megan Kelly or Wolf Blitzer or any of these corporate figures are going to be

00:08:31.240 | like in a conversation to some extent, none of us had any idea that I knew they

00:08:35.920 | didn't know I was bringing knock knock jokes.

00:08:37.800 | Yeah.

00:08:38.200 | Um, so that was kind of what was so excited.

00:08:42.440 | I said at one point, I'm kind of envious of the audience because this is, there's

00:08:46.720 | so many exciting things that are happening and that the internet and podcasting

00:08:51.200 | provides people an opportunity to do that.

00:08:53.160 | It was great.

00:08:55.000 | Yeah.

00:08:55.520 | That, that was the greatest pairing.

00:08:59.160 | With Alex Jones that I've ever seen by far.

00:09:01.920 | So like, so I immediately knew now this isn't a knock on Tim, but I don't

00:09:08.040 | even know if Tim was prepared.

00:09:09.840 | Tim was not prepared for this.

00:09:11.720 | How could he be prepared?

00:09:12.800 | Well, so I mean, I don't know if Tim is used to that.

00:09:16.360 | I think Joe Rogan is more equipped, prepared for the chaos, just

00:09:20.560 | the years he's been in it.

00:09:21.840 | Like I immediately thought this is the right pairing for Joe Rogan.

00:09:26.440 | Cause Alex Jones has been on Joe Rogan a few times, three times.

00:09:30.880 | My favorite so far was with Tim Dillon.

00:09:33.440 | Right.

00:09:33.600 | For Jan, yeah.

00:09:34.520 | But Tim was clearly, uh, Tim Dillon was also kind of, uh, uh, a genius in his own

00:09:43.040 | right, but he was kind of a fan and he was back and he was stepping away.

00:09:47.440 | He was almost like in awe of Alex Jones where, uh, you were both, you were

00:09:56.280 | in awe of the experience that's being created and at the same time,

00:10:00.760 | fearlessly just trolling the situation.

00:10:03.600 | I mean, to do a knock knock joke to stop me, that just shows that

00:10:07.480 | you're in control of the experience.

00:10:09.160 | No, you're like riding the experience.

00:10:10.960 | That immediately was like, this needs to be on Rogan.

00:10:14.280 | So I hope that happens as well.

00:10:17.800 | You're on your own, of course, on Rogan, but just you, that's an experience.

00:10:22.160 | That's the, whatever, this gotta be a good name for it.

00:10:24.600 | Like Jimi Hendrix experience, there's no Michael and Alex.

00:10:27.400 | It's taken.

00:10:29.480 | Well, I don't know how many years you can, you can restart the experience.

00:10:34.240 | Because I feel, sorry to interrupt you.

00:10:36.680 | I feel a very big responsibility, especially in 2020 to provide fun and

00:10:44.800 | something cool and something unique that hasn't been done before for the audience.

00:10:50.480 | I think this has been a very rough year on our audiences psychologically

00:10:55.120 | and in other aspects of their lives.

00:10:56.800 | So I feel if I'm going to be there, I'm going to put on a show and it's also

00:11:02.560 | going to be great because it also alienates the people you don't want.

00:11:05.480 | Right.

00:11:06.000 | So there's a lot of people who sit there and be like, oh, he's telling

00:11:08.680 | knock people who are too cool for school.

00:11:10.680 | Uh, where they're like, oh, he's telling knock, knock jokes.

00:11:13.480 | This is stupid.

00:11:14.120 | I'm like, good.

00:11:15.040 | If you have an issue with having eaten cotton candy or doing a puzzle with a

00:11:22.480 | kid or with, without, you know, by yourself, that's on you and it's something

00:11:27.040 | very, something I think is the enemy of cynicism and this idea that like, oh,

00:11:31.240 | this is too silly and amethyst.

00:11:33.280 | Like we need that kind of childlike aspect in our lives.

00:11:36.440 | I think it's something we could use more of.

00:11:37.920 | It's very much an aspect of our media culture that to kind of have

00:11:41.720 | be condemnatory about that or to do it in a certain very corporate fake way.

00:11:45.880 | So it is something I encourage a lot, something I enjoy doing.

00:11:50.000 | Um, and again, I like with the first time I was on Tim, I had a propeller

00:11:55.440 | beanie on, you know, with the motorized and a lot of people were like, I can't

00:11:59.360 | take anyone seriously who dresses like this.

00:12:01.320 | I go good.

00:12:01.880 | If you judge someone's ideas by how they appear instead of the ideas themselves,

00:12:07.440 | you're not someone I want on my team.

00:12:10.200 | Are we going to address the outfit you're wearing?

00:12:14.600 | We can address it.

00:12:15.680 | Sure.

00:12:15.960 | You know, for those who are colorblind, Michael's wearing the, or just listening

00:12:22.720 | to this, Michael's wearing the exact opposite, the inverse from, uh, from

00:12:29.520 | another dimension outfit, which is a white suit and black shirt.

00:12:33.280 | Uh, so genius.

00:12:34.840 | Okay.

00:12:35.120 | So, uh, you just see the next two looks I've planned.

00:12:37.880 | Oh no.

00:12:39.040 | Yeah.

00:12:39.240 | They're great.

00:12:40.720 | Well, obviously this relationship is going to end today.

00:12:42.400 | So it's over.

00:12:44.560 | Okay.

00:12:47.560 | Is there some deep philosophy to the humor is, uh, this

00:12:52.360 | goes to our trolling discussion.

00:12:53.960 | Is there some, is there like chapters to this genius or is this just, uh,

00:13:01.080 | what makes you smile in the morning?

00:13:02.880 | Well, I mean, I think you're honestly, in this case, using

00:13:06.200 | the word genius a little loosely.

00:13:07.520 | I don't think this is particularly genius, but I do think it is fun.

00:13:11.360 | It is exuberant.

00:13:13.040 | It is joyous.

00:13:14.160 | Um, I think the, the bigger my audience has gotten, um, and the more I actually

00:13:21.200 | communicate with, you know, fans, I do feel it kind of kicks in these paternal,

00:13:27.400 | maternal instincts.

00:13:28.320 | It's, which is very, very odd.

00:13:29.800 | I did not expect to have them.

00:13:30.760 | What do you mean?

00:13:31.200 | Who's the dad?

00:13:32.480 | I'm the dad and the mom.

00:13:33.680 | I remember, and it may have been similar for you.

00:13:36.040 | I'm curious to hear it for young, smart, like, um, ambitious men, like 24 to 27

00:13:41.600 | for me was a very rough period because that's the window where a lot of people

00:13:45.320 | get married and they kind of check out.

00:13:47.000 | And if you're very much kind of finding your own road, um, you don't know what's

00:13:52.120 | happening.

00:13:52.520 | No, one's in a position to really guide you or help you.

00:13:55.040 | And it's, it's, it's tough.

00:13:56.440 | It's a very tough window.

00:13:57.840 | And what I'm finding now is having these kids who are in that position, but now

00:14:04.680 | instead of them stumbling along for some of them, I'm the one who could be like,

00:14:08.160 | no, no, no, no.

00:14:08.880 | It's not you.

00:14:09.960 | It's everybody else.

00:14:11.080 | And to be able to give them that semblance of feeling seen to use a

00:14:17.280 | cliched expression, to feel normal and that no, no, you're the, you're the,

00:14:21.560 | you're the heroes here.

00:14:22.800 | They're the background noise.

00:14:24.400 | Um, it's just really very, uh, flattering and humbling to be in that position.

00:14:30.120 | You have many minds, right?

00:14:31.800 | There's the thoughtful kind.

00:14:33.840 | Uh, Michael, there's like, I'm going to burn down the powerful.

00:14:38.560 | Yeah.

00:14:38.960 | Michael.

00:14:39.520 | And then there's like, I'm going to have this just lighthearted trolling of the

00:14:46.760 | world, which, and which of those are most important to the 24 to the 27 demographic.

00:14:54.960 | I think it's, it is the combination.

00:14:57.280 | You know, it's like if you're making a meal, you know, chicken Kiev, you need the

00:15:02.600 | chicken, you need the ham, you need the butter sauce.

00:15:05.960 | Um, because I think people, when you're young, you need to see someone who's

00:15:12.400 | fought the fight for you and who's won.

00:15:15.160 | So it's very easy to be defeatist.

00:15:18.320 | So this is what winning looks like.

00:15:20.480 | No, this is not, this is most assuredly what winning does not look like, but in

00:15:26.240 | my normal clothes, a little bit more.

00:15:28.840 | Uh, this is a good time to mention that clothes wise you're, you're wearing

00:15:32.960 | sheath underwear and people should buy sheath underwear, use code malice20.

00:15:38.400 | If you go to sheathunderwear.com use promo code malice20.

00:15:41.520 | What I love about the, why I'm glad to promote the product and wear it.

00:15:45.240 | It's the most comfortable underwear I've ever worn.

00:15:47.480 | And you have a separate pouch for both parts of your genitals.

00:15:50.440 | That's, that's what you, I thought there was like a punchline coming.

00:15:53.960 | No, it's a very nice aspect of the product.

00:15:56.160 | Yeah.

00:15:56.480 | But I think what, here's something else just as it goes back to, we're just

00:15:59.280 | talking about, there are so many, and this is going to segue into this.

00:16:02.280 | There are so many small companies who've been devastated this year.

00:16:06.800 | We have not seen a sustained attack on mom and pop shops.

00:16:10.680 | Uh, like we've seen in 2020 who are innovators and making something happen.

00:16:16.520 | And when you're just like one dude, who's producing a product,

00:16:20.920 | they're a sponsor of mine.

00:16:22.720 | I'm happy to, first of all, it's funny that I'm pitching underwear,

00:16:25.600 | but pitching, but it's also.

00:16:27.680 | Something I enjoy.

00:16:28.960 | She says small business.

00:16:30.080 | Yeah.

00:16:30.520 | Yeah.

00:16:30.760 | It's microscopic like a thimble.

00:16:32.440 | So this isn't a sponsor of mine, but this is a good segue.

00:16:35.720 | So this is Russians.

00:16:37.320 | We celebrate new years.

00:16:38.320 | Yeah.

00:16:38.520 | It's November.

00:16:38.960 | We have dead motor was, he comes down, puts a present under your pillow.

00:16:42.760 | So this is a company called JL Lawson.

00:16:45.200 | He's a fan of yours.

00:16:46.560 | He's a metal worker.

00:16:47.520 | And he said, can I give you something to give to Lex?

00:16:50.520 | I have one of his worry coins.

00:16:52.520 | I'll tell you what it is.

00:16:53.560 | He's not a sponsor.

00:16:54.600 | This is not, I'm not getting paid for this.

00:16:56.120 | So what a worry coin is, I carry around in my butt.

00:16:58.640 | If you have raw denim, it's great.

00:16:59.920 | Cause it brings you fades.

00:17:00.920 | So you carry it around with you all the time.

00:17:02.880 | It says worrying.

00:17:04.440 | It's like paying a debt.

00:17:05.680 | You don't owe.

00:17:06.520 | Right.

00:17:07.920 | And I carry this around and for now, it's been like a year.

00:17:11.920 | Next time you're worrying, and this is good advice.

00:17:13.920 | If you don't have a worry coin, go think about 10 years ago.

00:17:17.720 | Yes.

00:17:18.280 | And what you were worried about then.

00:17:19.760 | And then think about, did any of those things pan out?

00:17:22.840 | And some of them did, but you were able to handle it.

00:17:25.200 | And that's a good way to maintain perspective.

00:17:28.440 | So JL Lawson's the company.

00:17:29.920 | He sent me this present.

00:17:31.280 | I said, let me give it to Lex on air.

00:17:32.720 | So enjoy.

00:17:34.680 | So I also open it up.

00:17:36.400 | Yeah.

00:17:36.720 | JL Lawson and co to Lex from Anthony.

00:17:40.840 | Yeah.

00:17:41.320 | And I said, make something mathematical for Lex.

00:17:43.400 | I don't even know what's in there.

00:17:44.360 | You don't know what's in there.

00:17:45.360 | No.

00:17:45.640 | And it got through a TSA.

00:17:47.240 | Could be a bomb.

00:17:48.720 | It could be just like this episode.

00:17:52.240 | Make sure you unwrap it close to the mic because it drives you for crazy.

00:17:54.680 | That's really the best part.

00:17:56.240 | Or is this what unboxing video looks like?

00:18:02.240 | This conversation is going to be a big hit on the internet.

00:18:07.240 | With the unboxing community.

00:18:08.480 | I need to have an excited look on my face to make sure that the reaction

00:18:13.480 | video is be an unboxing and a reaction video.

00:18:16.240 | Lex screaming reacts.

00:18:18.440 | and a reaction video.

00:18:19.760 | - Like screaming react.

00:18:21.080 | It's another box.

00:18:23.320 | It's just a series of boxes.

00:18:25.560 | - Lex, big fan since hearing you on Rogan months ago.

00:18:30.240 | Most of your guests are over my head,

00:18:32.360 | but still enjoyable.

00:18:33.760 | - Aw.

00:18:34.720 | - Like this episode, Michael was kind enough

00:18:37.760 | to want to share my work with you.

00:18:40.280 | Keep doing what you do.

00:18:41.620 | Anthony Lawson.

00:18:43.300 | Thanks Anthony.

00:18:45.320 | - There's a lot in there.

00:18:47.520 | - What is in there?

00:18:48.340 | - I'll open some.

00:18:49.180 | - Okay.

00:18:50.000 | - All right.

00:18:50.840 | (speaking in foreign language)

00:18:52.640 | - Show it to the camera

00:18:53.720 | and then make sure you look excited or not or disappointed.

00:18:56.680 | - No, this is cool.

00:18:57.520 | This is a worry coin like I was showing you.

00:18:59.200 | - Oh, nice.

00:19:00.040 | - So you hold it in your hand

00:19:00.860 | and when you can do this with your thumb,

00:19:02.480 | if people have anxiety or whatever.

00:19:05.000 | - Oh, there's a lot of cool stuff in here.

00:19:06.480 | Fibonacci coin.

00:19:08.080 | - Oh, see, yeah, that's the math stuff.

00:19:10.080 | - That's really awesome.

00:19:11.640 | This is really cool.

00:19:13.120 | - Wait, you got a big one in there too.

00:19:15.080 | - That's what she said.

00:19:18.460 | (laughing)

00:19:19.540 | - I'm telling you,

00:19:20.620 | last time you offended me saying I don't have humor.

00:19:23.700 | - So I...

00:19:24.540 | (laughing)

00:19:26.780 | - The spin tray, micro brass and copper bronze.

00:19:33.260 | By the way, the packaging is epic.

00:19:35.300 | - I think that's his top.

00:19:37.380 | He makes tops.

00:19:38.600 | - Cool.

00:19:41.420 | - Yeah, you spin it in there.

00:19:44.840 | - It's the two different bronze and copper.

00:19:47.680 | - I think he's the only one who makes these machined tops.

00:19:53.320 | - And then he's sitting here, I guess.

00:19:55.280 | - Yeah, but you could spin him in that section.

00:19:58.160 | - Got it, cool.

00:19:59.000 | Where's the worry thing?

00:20:02.760 | - Here's the worry coin.

00:20:04.280 | - Anyway, I wasn't listening.

00:20:05.240 | What were you worried about 10 years ago?

00:20:07.280 | - 10 years ago, 2010.

00:20:09.720 | What would I have been worried about then?

00:20:11.280 | - The government?

00:20:12.360 | - No, that's not a worry.

00:20:13.920 | - What was the North Korea book?

00:20:17.060 | - That came out in 2014.

00:20:19.820 | I went there in 2012.

00:20:22.580 | Came out in January 2014.

00:20:24.700 | It still pays my rent with the royalties.

00:20:28.220 | - The North Korea book?

00:20:29.060 | - Yeah.

00:20:30.020 | This is why it's so much better.

00:20:31.740 | - I gotta talk to you about self-publishing

00:20:34.300 | 'cause you brought that up.

00:20:36.380 | - I'm doing the next book's also gonna be self-published.

00:20:39.260 | - Can we talk about self-publishing?

00:20:40.700 | - What's the whole idea of publishing,

00:20:45.160 | like having a publisher and an agent?

00:20:47.600 | 'Cause there's a bunch of people

00:20:48.600 | who've been reaching out to me

00:20:49.880 | trying to get me to write a book, which is ridiculous.

00:20:52.240 | - Why?

00:20:53.160 | - There's people who are brilliant folks like you,

00:20:56.100 | like Jordan Peterson, that I think have a lot of knowledge

00:20:59.320 | to share with the world.

00:21:00.860 | I think what I feel I can contribute to the world

00:21:04.520 | in terms of impact is to build something.

00:21:10.140 | Meaning like engineering stuff.

00:21:12.000 | - Okay.

00:21:12.840 | - Like a book.

00:21:13.680 | - A book has to be engineered,

00:21:14.760 | and I'm not using it loosely.

00:21:16.320 | You have to engineer a book.

00:21:17.720 | - No, for sure.

00:21:18.560 | What I mean is like literally a product

00:21:20.400 | with programming and artificial intelligence.

00:21:23.000 | I wanna build a company, I want to,

00:21:25.080 | 'cause I have a few ideas that I feel I'm equipped.

00:21:28.640 | And it has to do with your intuition

00:21:31.680 | about the way you can build a better world, you individually.

00:21:35.320 | Like what can you add to the world that's a positive thing?

00:21:38.480 | And for me, I feel like the maximal thing

00:21:42.380 | I can add to the world is at least to attempt

00:21:45.460 | to build products that would add more love in the world.

00:21:49.420 | And like, so I wanna focus on that.

00:21:50.860 | The danger of the book for me, or any kind of writing,

00:21:55.460 | and even this podcast is a little bit dangerous for me,

00:21:57.980 | is like, it's fun.

00:21:59.420 | - That's for sure.

00:22:00.260 | (laughing)

00:22:03.100 | - It's fun.

00:22:03.920 | It's like it takes you into this place

00:22:05.500 | where you start thinking about the world,

00:22:06.980 | you start enjoying and playing with ideas,

00:22:08.980 | you start, and like just your book on,

00:22:12.700 | Hey Dear Reader, but also the new right,

00:22:16.420 | like clearly you and I probably think similarly

00:22:19.900 | in the sense that you did a lot of work.

00:22:22.940 | - Yes, this next book is killing me.

00:22:25.580 | - Yeah, as you mentioned often,

00:22:27.580 | it's clear like on your YouTube channel,

00:22:32.020 | which I'm a fan of, you often, it just comes out like,

00:22:35.180 | you mentioned all of these books that you're reading,

00:22:37.580 | it just comes through you, that you're suffering

00:22:40.860 | through this and it changes you.

00:22:43.580 | And it's clear that you're thinking deeply

00:22:47.580 | about the world because of this book.

00:22:48.980 | And I feel like if you do that, that's like,

00:22:51.720 | when I first came to this country,

00:22:54.820 | I read the book, The Giver, I need to read it again.

00:22:57.500 | It's like, the red pill thing, it changes you

00:23:02.060 | in where you can never be the same person again.

00:23:04.820 | And I feel about a book in that same way.

00:23:07.700 | The moment you write a book,

00:23:09.700 | of course it depends on the book.

00:23:11.060 | I could also just write like in my field,

00:23:14.540 | a very technical book.

00:23:15.940 | - No, that's a terrible idea.

00:23:17.940 | - Yes, but that's okay, that doesn't really change you.

00:23:20.540 | That's just like sharing information.

00:23:22.460 | But like something where you're like,

00:23:24.460 | how do I think about this world?

00:23:26.680 | Can you just leave that behind you?

00:23:28.700 | - I get it, dude, it's being pregnant.

00:23:31.060 | It never escapes your brain, I'm telling you.

00:23:33.140 | You're absolutely right.

00:23:34.180 | - Yeah, I don't know.

00:23:35.020 | It does seem to change you.

00:23:36.740 | But the reason I bring that up

00:23:37.860 | is 'cause there's this whole industry of people

00:23:41.380 | that seem to not really contribute much

00:23:44.460 | to the publication process,

00:23:46.300 | but they make themselves seem necessary

00:23:49.140 | for like if you wanna be in the New York Times

00:23:51.620 | bestseller list kind of thing.

00:23:53.380 | But also just being like reputable,

00:23:57.220 | which I'm allergic to that whole concept.

00:23:59.500 | But do you think it's possible to be

00:24:02.060 | on the New York Times bestseller list

00:24:04.140 | and be a reputable author and still be self-published?

00:24:09.140 | - Not what you would wanna do.

00:24:11.060 | Like people like Mark Sisson, I think is his name.

00:24:12.820 | He wrote like "The Primal Blueprint."

00:24:14.060 | So like if I'm getting the names correct,

00:24:16.500 | he's the first paleo guy, right?

00:24:18.100 | So he self-published it, it sold gangbusters,

00:24:21.780 | but that would be on their health chart, I believe.

00:24:23.620 | And it's a little bit of a different situation.

00:24:27.460 | You would be reaching much more for the mainstream.

00:24:30.660 | You'd be giving up a lot if you go through a publisher,

00:24:34.380 | especially financially.

00:24:35.940 | But yeah, you are not going to have the cred

00:24:38.740 | because the publishing is a cartel.

00:24:41.820 | The New York Times is part of this cartel.

00:24:43.980 | And if you don't publish within this cartel,

00:24:47.940 | they will do what they can, as any cartel has to,

00:24:51.820 | by necessity of being cartel, to pretend you don't exist.

00:24:55.680 | So they will, I was, I think, the first one

00:24:58.420 | to have an hour on Book TV for Dear Reader,

00:25:01.060 | 'cause that was a Kickstarter book.

00:25:03.460 | But this is something that people--

00:25:05.460 | - Dear Reader was a Kickstarter book.

00:25:06.780 | - Yeah.

00:25:08.340 | This is something people would have to be aware of.

00:25:12.220 | So you would be giving up a lot,

00:25:14.380 | but you'd also be giving a lot to work with a publisher

00:25:17.500 | 'cause you're losing like a year and a half of your life

00:25:19.980 | because they're glacial and they don't care.

00:25:21.940 | - Well, that's my problem, it's not the money.

00:25:23.900 | I mean, the money is whatever percent they take,

00:25:25.900 | 10, 20, 30, 50%--

00:25:27.900 | - They're taking a huge chunk.

00:25:29.820 | So if I sell a book through St. Martin's, it's a dollar.

00:25:33.740 | If I sell a book through Amazon, which is Dear Reader,

00:25:36.140 | that's $6.

00:25:37.380 | So that's what, 87%, it's something crazy.

00:25:40.020 | - But for me, what bothers me isn't the money,

00:25:43.580 | for me personally, for me, what bothers me is incompetence.

00:25:47.940 | Like whenever I go to the DMV or something like that--

00:25:50.260 | - Can I interrupt you?

00:25:51.100 | - Yeah.

00:25:51.920 | - Let's talk incompetence.

00:25:52.760 | - Yeah.

00:25:54.020 | - New Right comes out last year.

00:25:55.700 | - Yes.

00:25:56.540 | - I get on Rogan, get on Rubin,

00:25:59.220 | I call them and I said, "I got on these shows,

00:26:04.500 | "is there money in the budget for travel?"

00:26:06.720 | And they say, "We don't have that budget."

00:26:10.900 | Fine.

00:26:11.740 | - By the way, you got on those shows with no help from them.

00:26:14.780 | - Correct, oh yeah, that's not even a question.

00:26:17.060 | The reason they would want you to do a book

00:26:18.580 | is 'cause they know you could get,

00:26:19.860 | the only reason people get book deals nowadays, literally,

00:26:23.380 | is 'cause they know that person can market their own book.

00:26:25.460 | That's the only way.

00:26:27.100 | And I got on Rubin, I got on Rogan,

00:26:29.420 | and they go, "We don't have the money for travel,"

00:26:31.380 | which is fair, "they can do Skype."

00:26:33.420 | They told me this in writing.

00:26:36.420 | And I'm like, "Okay."

00:26:37.980 | - They can financially cover Skype?

00:26:40.260 | (laughs)

00:26:41.220 | - No, but it's like, "Hey, Joe, yeah,

00:26:43.740 | "we don't have the budget, but you're gonna do Skype,

00:26:45.500 | "hello, hello?"

00:26:46.980 | (laughs)

00:26:48.060 | So there is, another friend of mine

00:26:51.860 | was on a show on CNBC with Nassim Taleb.

00:26:55.580 | And they said, "Nassim wants a copy of the book."

00:26:59.660 | And they're like, "Oh yeah, it's like four o'clock on Friday,

00:27:03.620 | "so we're closed, so."

00:27:05.740 | And he's like, he went there, picked it up,

00:27:08.740 | and walked it the two blocks.

00:27:10.740 | So there is, it's almost cartoonish.

00:27:14.420 | And it's not incompetence, it's past that.

00:27:20.060 | It's something almost, you can't really believe it.

00:27:23.740 | I've had two friends who have been

00:27:25.260 | literally rendered suicidal

00:27:26.860 | because this was such a huge opportunity for them.

00:27:30.780 | And it was like watching their kid

00:27:32.380 | get beaten in front of them.

00:27:33.660 | And I had to talk them off the ledge.

00:27:35.020 | So it's, people do not appreciate how bad,

00:27:38.420 | here's another example.

00:27:39.340 | - The apathy of bureaucracy, something like that.

00:27:42.020 | - I did this book, "Concierge Confidential."

00:27:44.460 | There's a typo in the first chapter,

00:27:46.180 | it ends with, "I'm about to, T-O-O."

00:27:49.620 | They didn't fix it for the paperback.

00:27:52.260 | Who cared?

00:27:53.100 | It's just like, well, okay.

00:27:54.300 | Yeah, great book, by the way.

00:27:56.740 | It got NPR, gave it one of the books of the year.

00:27:59.340 | So that was cool.

00:28:00.660 | - So why participate in this?

00:28:03.300 | - Because otherwise, New York Times

00:28:04.860 | is gonna pretend you don't exist.

00:28:07.300 | Getting booked on some shows might be more difficult,

00:28:10.740 | although I think that's collapsing in real time.

00:28:13.340 | You're not gonna get reviewed necessarily

00:28:17.940 | on places like PW or some others.

00:28:21.260 | - So the new book you're working on,

00:28:23.820 | do you have a title yet or no?

00:28:24.660 | - "The White Pill."

00:28:25.500 | - "The White Pill."

00:28:26.320 | Are you self-publishing that?

00:28:29.700 | - Oh yeah, for sure.

00:28:31.060 | - And what's the thinking behind that?

00:28:32.980 | Just because you already have a huge following

00:28:35.100 | and a big platform and--

00:28:36.780 | - It's six times the cash.

00:28:38.220 | If I finish the book in December,

00:28:41.620 | I could have it out in February.

00:28:43.620 | If I finish the book in December with a publisher,

00:28:45.740 | it's gonna be out in December at the earliest, 2021.

00:28:50.220 | Why am I giving up 10 months of my life?

00:28:52.500 | - Well, this is the big one.

00:28:53.340 | Do you have any leverage?

00:28:55.260 | Do authors have leverage to say, "F you"?

00:28:58.700 | Can you just say, "Can you?"

00:29:00.820 | - What do you mean?

00:29:01.740 | - Meaning like, "I wanna release this book in two months."

00:29:06.420 | - Oh, no, no.

00:29:07.300 | I mean, you'll have a contract

00:29:08.540 | and then your agent can fight it,

00:29:09.660 | but they don't have the capacity to rush things through.

00:29:14.580 | - Yeah, I guess if the, 'cause I've heard big authors,

00:29:18.380 | I don't know, Sam Harris, all those folks,

00:29:20.260 | talk about like, they've accepted it, actually.

00:29:23.640 | They've accepted, they're like,

00:29:24.660 | "Yeah, it takes a long time to--"

00:29:26.060 | - I'm not accepting it.

00:29:27.220 | - But you're kind of implying

00:29:30.180 | that a human being like me should.

00:29:32.860 | - I'm saying these are your options.

00:29:36.140 | - Right.

00:29:36.980 | - So--

00:29:37.980 | - I just hate it.

00:29:38.820 | I hate the waiting because it's incompetence.

00:29:41.660 | It's not necessarily the wait.

00:29:44.580 | If I knew it wasn't, you know,

00:29:47.340 | if it was the kind of people that are up at 2 a.m. at night

00:29:51.540 | on a Friday and they love what you're doing

00:29:54.540 | and they're helping create something special,

00:29:56.860 | that's the sense I get with some of the Netflix folks,

00:29:59.060 | for example, that work with people.

00:30:01.860 | I just, I don't know anything about this world,

00:30:03.420 | but you get like Netflix folks who help with shows.

00:30:08.380 | You could tell that they're obsessed with those shows.

00:30:10.940 | - Yeah, you're not gonna get that publishing.

00:30:12.980 | If you hand, like I handed the book in,

00:30:14.940 | I think it was July.

00:30:16.140 | I didn't hear anything from my editor until December.

00:30:20.220 | - Well, can we actually talk about the suffering?

00:30:24.500 | - Sure.

00:30:25.340 | - The darkest parts of writing a book.

00:30:27.620 | So let's go to the full Michael Malice, Stephen King mode

00:30:32.020 | of what are the darkest moments of writing this book?

00:30:35.420 | And what is it, maybe start with the white pill.

00:30:38.240 | What's the idea, what's the hope,

00:30:40.580 | and what are your darkest moments around writing this book?

00:30:43.100 | - So people are familiar with the red pill and the blue pill,

00:30:46.700 | the red, therefore the matrix.

00:30:48.580 | The red pill is the idea that what is presented as fact

00:30:52.500 | by the corporate press entertainment industry

00:30:54.780 | is in fact a carefully constructed narrative

00:30:56.540 | designed to keep some very unpleasant people in power

00:30:58.860 | and everyone else under control.

00:31:01.220 | And I guess one of my expressions is you take one red pill,

00:31:04.300 | not the whole bottle.

00:31:05.860 | Because at a certain point you think everything's a lie

00:31:07.780 | and you're kind of no capacity for distinguishing truths.

00:31:11.580 | - You're full of good one-liners.

00:31:13.180 | - Well, thank you.

00:31:14.340 | I'm full of something, that's for sure.

00:31:16.500 | And what I saw in this space

00:31:20.460 | is a lot of these red-pilled people

00:31:22.700 | got very disheartened and cynical.

00:31:27.060 | And one of my big heroes is Albert Camus,

00:31:29.860 | and he said the worst thing is cynicism.

00:31:32.980 | And that's something called the black pill,

00:31:35.500 | which is the idea that it's just,

00:31:39.420 | we're waiting for the end, it's hopeless.

00:31:42.580 | And I don't see it that way at all.

00:31:46.820 | And I'm like, all right, I have to address this

00:31:50.980 | and not just with some kind of cheerleading,

00:31:53.300 | everything's gonna be great, guys.

00:31:54.860 | Here is why I am positive.

00:31:58.820 | And not that I'm positive the good guys are gonna win,

00:32:02.140 | but I'm positive the good guys can win.

00:32:05.340 | And that's all you need,

00:32:06.660 | because if your, God forbid, kid is kidnapped,

00:32:10.960 | and there's a 10% chance that you can save them,

00:32:14.340 | you're not gonna be like, well, I don't like those odds.

00:32:17.900 | This is your country, this is your values,

00:32:20.380 | this is your family.

00:32:22.340 | I don't think it's much more than 10%.

00:32:24.340 | And even if you lose, you will take pride

00:32:28.220 | in that you did everything in your power to win.

00:32:31.940 | - Is there a good definition of good guys

00:32:35.040 | in the sense that-- - The ones who wear white.

00:32:37.340 | - There's layers to this.

00:32:39.940 | You're like modern day Shakespeare.

00:32:41.880 | Is there a danger in thinking Adolf Hitler

00:32:48.300 | was probably pretty confident

00:32:52.020 | that he led a group of good guys?

00:32:54.380 | - Listen, if Hitler did anything wrong, why isn't he in jail?

00:32:57.220 | My Czech friend thought of that joke.

00:33:02.540 | Actually, he says it in his accent, he goes,

00:33:04.260 | if Hitler's so bad, why isn't he in the jail?

00:33:06.540 | - That's a good point.

00:33:09.720 | He's probably still alive, right?

00:33:11.140 | - And look, yeah, hopefully.

00:33:13.620 | - Oh boy, two of the three people listening to this

00:33:18.200 | are very upset right now.

00:33:19.500 | What were you even talking about?

00:33:22.860 | Oh, how do you know what is good?

00:33:26.020 | - There's lots of standards of good.

00:33:27.660 | But if you're, for me, to be a good guy is

00:33:31.640 | if you want to leave the world

00:33:33.680 | a little bit better than you found it.

00:33:35.680 | That, to me, is the definition of a good guy.

00:33:38.320 | And I think there are many people

00:33:41.040 | that that's not their motivation at all.

00:33:43.720 | - It's about your motivation.

00:33:45.320 | - Well, it's also about if your motivation

00:33:47.060 | is at all correlated to reality.

00:33:49.920 | No one thinks we're the bad guys, that's correct.

00:33:53.360 | But are you taking steps to check your motivations

00:33:57.680 | and also take a certain amount of humility?

00:34:00.680 | Because if you're going to start

00:34:01.960 | interfering with other people's lives,

00:34:03.600 | you really better be sure you know

00:34:06.440 | what you're talking about.

00:34:08.480 | - The control of others,

00:34:10.600 | if you do have centralized control

00:34:12.480 | or then you kind of, you become a leader of a group,

00:34:16.840 | you better know, you better do so humbly and cautiously.

00:34:21.520 | - And also have steam valves, right?

00:34:25.080 | So in case things go wrong, let's have,

00:34:28.440 | I'm sure this is a lot happening with AI,

00:34:29.960 | or whatever, or computers.

00:34:31.480 | Like, okay, if something goes wrong here,

00:34:33.040 | how do we have a workaround

00:34:35.320 | to make sure it doesn't cause everything to collapse?

00:34:37.480 | - Yeah, the going wrong thing,

00:34:39.200 | I mean, the whole, the feedback mechanism.

00:34:42.240 | Like, I wonder if people in Congress

00:34:46.240 | think that things are really wrong.

00:34:50.040 | - It's working for them.

00:34:51.480 | - Are you sure?

00:34:53.320 | Because-- - No, I'm not sure.

00:34:54.520 | - Because I'd like to believe that the people

00:34:59.280 | that at least when they got into politics

00:35:02.680 | actually wanted, some of it is ego,

00:35:04.480 | but some of it is wanting to be the kind of person

00:35:08.560 | that builds a better world.

00:35:09.880 | - Sure, I also think it's diverse.

00:35:12.440 | Some are gonna have different motivations than others.

00:35:15.520 | - But once you're in the system

00:35:18.240 | and trying to build a better world,

00:35:20.280 | how do you know that it's not working?

00:35:22.640 | How do you take the basic feedback mechanisms

00:35:28.280 | and actually productively change?

00:35:30.680 | I mean, that's what it means to be a good guy,

00:35:32.120 | is like, hmm, something is wrong here.

00:35:34.280 | And that's why I like the Elon Musk,

00:35:36.160 | think from first principles.

00:35:38.120 | Like, wait, wait, wait, okay.

00:35:39.920 | Let's ask the big question.

00:35:41.960 | Can this be, one, is this working at all?

00:35:45.120 | Like, the way we're solving this particular problem

00:35:47.400 | of government, is this working at all?

00:35:50.080 | And then stepping away and saying,

00:35:52.720 | as opposed to modifying this bill or that bill

00:35:55.800 | or this little strategy, like increase the tax by this much

00:35:59.120 | or decrease the tax by this much,

00:36:00.840 | why do we have a democracy at all?

00:36:05.840 | Or why do we have any kind of representative democracy?

00:36:10.840 | Shouldn't it be a pure democracy?

00:36:13.040 | Or why do we have states,

00:36:16.520 | like representation of states and federal government

00:36:19.800 | and so on?

00:36:20.640 | Why do we have this kind of separation of powers?

00:36:23.040 | Is this different?

00:36:23.920 | Why do we have term limits or not?

00:36:26.200 | Like big things.

00:36:28.440 | Like, how do you actually make that happen?

00:36:31.280 | And is that what it means to be a good guy?

00:36:33.480 | It's like taking big revolutionary steps

00:36:38.200 | as opposed to incremental steps.

00:36:39.800 | - Well, I don't know that you could be a politician

00:36:41.400 | to be a good guy, to be honest.

00:36:42.840 | And let me give you a counterexample,

00:36:44.280 | someone who you could tell is not being a good guy.

00:36:47.080 | Joe Biden said he was,

00:36:48.400 | he regards the Iraq war as a mistake, okay?

00:36:50.720 | You and I have made mistakes in our lives, I'm sure.

00:36:52.960 | None of our mistakes have caused

00:36:54.200 | tens of thousands of people to die.

00:36:56.720 | If, let's suppose I'm, for yourself.

00:36:58.520 | That's fair, okay, I'll take that.

00:37:00.920 | I don't build the kill bots.

00:37:02.560 | If I were a chef, let's take it out of politics,

00:37:08.120 | and in my restaurant, somehow, accidentally,

00:37:10.960 | someone ate something and they died.

00:37:12.840 | A, I would feel horrible.

00:37:15.560 | But more importantly, I would be like,

00:37:18.240 | we need to look through this system

00:37:20.600 | and figure out how it got to the point

00:37:22.640 | where someone lost their life,

00:37:24.160 | because that can never happen again.

00:37:26.200 | And we need to figure out step by step.

00:37:28.960 | I'm not a gun person, but there's this checklist

00:37:33.160 | of if you're holding a gun, there's five things to do.

00:37:35.560 | And if you get too wrong, you're gonna be,

00:37:37.360 | it's like, assume every gun is loaded,

00:37:39.280 | only point it at something that you wanna kill,

00:37:42.440 | and there's three other things.

00:37:43.840 | And it's to make sure that nothing goes wrong.

00:37:48.000 | So if I made, if I'm that chef,

00:37:51.600 | and I would have to not only feel guilt,

00:37:54.080 | but take preventative action to make sure,

00:37:56.680 | this has no possibility of happening again.

00:38:00.520 | If you look at the staff he's putting in,

00:38:03.060 | it's the same warmongers that would have advised him

00:38:06.240 | to get into the Iraq War on the first time.

00:38:09.680 | That is, to me, is not a good guy.

00:38:12.400 | That, to me, is someone who does not feel remorse

00:38:15.040 | for their responsibility in killing not only many Americans,

00:38:18.540 | but some of us think that dead Iraqis

00:38:21.160 | isn't necessarily ideal either.

00:38:22.760 | - Okay, let's talk a bit about war.

00:38:27.040 | Maybe you can also correct me on something.

00:38:29.560 | The first time I found myself into Barack Obama

00:38:34.560 | was, I don't know how many years ago this was,

00:38:37.860 | but when I maybe heard a speech of his

00:38:42.200 | about him speaking out against the war.

00:38:44.960 | - Yeah.

00:38:45.800 | - And him, I think it's on record

00:38:48.960 | saying he was against the war,

00:38:51.040 | before it was happening.

00:38:52.640 | - But he wasn't in Senate at the time,

00:38:54.240 | so it was very easy for him to say this.

00:38:55.600 | - But see, people say that.

00:38:57.520 | People say that.

00:38:58.720 | People say it was easy,

00:39:00.720 | and some people say it's strategically the wise thing to do,

00:39:04.800 | given some kind of calculus, whatever.

00:39:07.200 | But I, to this day, give him,

00:39:10.100 | that's the reason I've always given him props,

00:39:12.800 | in my mind, this is a man of character.

00:39:15.600 | I also personally really value great speeches.

00:39:19.840 | I think speeches are really important for leaders,

00:39:22.320 | 'cause they inspire the world.

00:39:23.520 | It's like, one of the most,

00:39:25.240 | best things you can contribute to the world is great,

00:39:27.840 | like, through intellect,

00:39:31.180 | mold ideas in a way that's communicable

00:39:33.480 | to a huge number of people.

00:39:34.920 | - Yeah, it's better to persuade than to force,

00:39:36.680 | in every instance.

00:39:37.680 | - That's where I disagree with Chomsky.

00:39:39.280 | He said, if you're,

00:39:41.120 | Chomsky's whole idea was that,

00:39:42.880 | if you're a really eloquent speaker,

00:39:45.440 | that means your ideas aren't that good.

00:39:48.160 | - That's nonsense.

00:39:49.000 | - Yeah, so, I think that's a way for him to describe,

00:39:52.160 | like, I speak in a very boring way.

00:39:55.000 | Maybe that's the pitch for this podcast.

00:39:56.880 | I speak boring so that the ideas are the things you value,

00:40:00.800 | and it's also useful to go to sleep.

00:40:02.400 | But the, that's why I really liked Obama

00:40:06.560 | throughout his life, and still do.

00:40:09.520 | But when I first, like, saw this as,

00:40:11.960 | for some reason, you can disagree,

00:40:13.840 | I thought he's a man of character,

00:40:15.320 | is to, when most politicians,

00:40:18.340 | most people who are trying to calculate and rise in power,

00:40:21.800 | I think were for the war,

00:40:23.280 | or too afraid to be against the war.

00:40:25.440 | That's why I liked Bernie Sanders,

00:40:28.920 | and that's why I liked, like, in the early days,

00:40:32.360 | Obama, for speaking out against the war.

00:40:34.880 | And not, like, in this weird activist way,

00:40:37.040 | not weird, but not saying I'm an activist,

00:40:40.520 | this is, but, like, just saying the common sense thing,

00:40:44.440 | and being brave enough to say the common sense thing,

00:40:46.920 | without, like, having a big sign,

00:40:49.620 | and saying I'm going to be the anti-war candidate,

00:40:52.020 | or something like that.

00:40:52.900 | But just saying this is not a good idea.

00:40:56.100 | - Yeah, and I think it's, for those of us

00:40:58.780 | who are old enough to remember,

00:40:59.740 | it's pretty despicable what happened with Tulsi in 2020.

00:41:04.260 | She was the biggest anti-war candidate,

00:41:06.700 | and she was marginalized within her own party,

00:41:09.320 | which I guess you can make sense,

00:41:10.460 | she's just a congresswoman from Hawaii.

00:41:12.540 | But the corporate press did everything in their power

00:41:16.140 | to diminish her and pretend she didn't existed.

00:41:19.220 | And for those of us who remember where 12 years prior,

00:41:23.220 | when George W. Bush had

00:41:25.660 | the Republican National Convention in New York,

00:41:27.220 | and it was, like, the biggest protest in history,

00:41:29.420 | and the Iraq War led to democratic landslides

00:41:34.100 | in 2006 and 2008, to have that completely not part

00:41:37.340 | of the Democratic Party in 2020

00:41:39.900 | is both shocking and reprehensible.

00:41:42.200 | - Hey, Michael.

00:41:45.820 | - Is it?

00:41:46.660 | (laughing)

00:41:48.140 | You don't have to say, "Hey, Michael,"

00:41:49.300 | you just say, "Knock, knock."

00:41:50.500 | - No, it's not a knock-knock joke.

00:41:51.700 | - Oh, okay, hey, Lusha.

00:41:52.900 | (laughing)

00:41:54.500 | - What did the volcano say to its true love?

00:41:57.820 | - What?

00:41:59.260 | - I love you.

00:42:00.220 | (laughing)

00:42:04.100 | - These jokes work better

00:42:06.780 | when you know how to speak English.

00:42:08.660 | - It was actually in Russian, I did Google Translate.

00:42:11.700 | Okay.

00:42:13.260 | Back to your book, "In the Suffering."

00:42:15.180 | You somehow turned it positive,

00:42:18.380 | and as one who's wearing,

00:42:20.980 | who's the representative of the black pill

00:42:22.540 | in this conversation, what are some of the darker moments,

00:42:25.580 | what are some of the hardest challenges

00:42:27.220 | of putting together this book, the white pill?

00:42:30.580 | - Content, content, content.

00:42:32.660 | So if I'm having a page about Reagan taking on Gerald Ford

00:42:37.660 | in the 1976 presidential primaries,

00:42:41.300 | I'm gonna have to read, like, 20.

00:42:43.540 | So, and it's the thing, like,

00:42:45.460 | if there'll be sometimes I'll remember some quote somewhere,

00:42:48.500 | and then I have to spend an hour trying to find it,

00:42:51.060 | because I want it to be as dense

00:42:53.060 | with information as possible.

00:42:56.100 | - Like, how do you structure

00:42:57.460 | the main philosophical ideas you wanna convey?

00:43:01.780 | Is that already planned out?

00:43:03.140 | - No, the book changed entirely from its conception.

00:43:06.500 | So my buddy Ryan Holiday had a series of books,

00:43:10.020 | still does, where he takes the ideas of the Stoics,

00:43:13.060 | and he applies them to contemporary terms.

00:43:16.100 | He has this whole cottage industry

00:43:17.380 | that he's doing very well with.

00:43:18.700 | And I'd asked him years ago if I could do that with Camus,

00:43:21.860 | and he's like, "Sure, go for it."

00:43:23.420 | And I was going to rework Camus' "The Myth of Sisyphus,"

00:43:27.700 | and I read it recently, I reread it,

00:43:30.620 | and this wasn't the book I remembered at all.

00:43:32.780 | And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna write the book

00:43:34.220 | that I remembered.

00:43:35.660 | But the more I was writing it,

00:43:38.740 | one of the things I always yell at conservatives about,

00:43:41.140 | there's a long list, is they don't talk about

00:43:44.900 | the great victory of conservatism,

00:43:47.220 | which was the winning of the Cold War without firing a shot.

00:43:50.820 | And I said, "You can't expect the New York Times

00:43:52.340 | "to tell this story because the blood is on their hands."

00:43:55.220 | And I'm like, "Well, Michael,

00:43:58.820 | "instead of complaining about it, why don't you do it?

00:44:01.340 | "Why don't you talk?"

00:44:02.220 | That is a great example of the good guys

00:44:03.940 | winning over the bad guys.

00:44:05.500 | And that's become, A, the victory is beautiful,

00:44:11.140 | but also pointing out to people,

00:44:12.540 | when people are like, "Oh, things are worse

00:44:13.740 | "than they've ever been,"

00:44:15.260 | they don't appreciate how bad things were in the '30s,

00:44:18.420 | what Stalin was doing overseas,

00:44:20.860 | and how people in the West were advocating

00:44:23.420 | to bring that here.

00:44:24.800 | So that's kind of pointing out how bad things were

00:44:29.100 | and how good they became.

00:44:30.700 | And you don't have to be a Republican or conservative

00:44:34.000 | to be delighted at the collapse of totalitarianism

00:44:37.300 | and the peaceful liberation of half the world.

00:44:39.140 | - So that's a picture of the good guys winning.

00:44:40.940 | - Oh, yeah.

00:44:41.780 | - Well, how does that connect to Sisyphus?

00:44:42.900 | And maybe to speak deeper to life

00:44:47.900 | and whatever the hell this thing is,

00:44:51.460 | which is what I remember the myth of Sisyphus being about.

00:44:55.440 | So where does the threat of Camus

00:44:58.860 | sort of lie in the work that you're doing?

00:45:02.300 | - So the myth of Sisyphus,

00:45:04.980 | which I had remembered incorrectly,

00:45:06.300 | is actually just a five to seven page coda

00:45:11.300 | to the whole book at the very end.

00:45:12.580 | Like you only need to read that little essay

00:45:14.060 | called "The Myth of Sisyphus."

00:45:15.340 | The broader work is about Camus' concept of the absurd

00:45:19.060 | and the absurd man within literature.

00:45:20.860 | And it's just like, I don't really care

00:45:22.780 | about this character in Dostoevsky

00:45:24.460 | and all this other stuff that you're talking about.

00:45:25.620 | It's of no relevance.

00:45:27.220 | But the myth of Sisyphus, the myth itself, not the book,

00:45:30.700 | or the essay of his, is this Greek character,

00:45:34.260 | and Sisyphus is forced in hell to roll a rock up a hill.

00:45:39.260 | For eternity, at the very last moment, the rock falls away.

00:45:42.620 | And Camus' takeaway from the story

00:45:44.780 | is that we must imagine Sisyphus happy.

00:45:48.420 | And there's several interpretations of this,

00:45:50.180 | but one is once you accept

00:45:52.260 | that you are living an absurdist existence,

00:45:56.780 | once you own your reality, it loses its bite.

00:46:02.320 | And you can start with that as your kind of baseline.

00:46:06.880 | - And bite is suffering.

00:46:08.800 | - And hopelessness.

00:46:11.160 | So I think when people look at how much ridiculousness

00:46:16.160 | is happening in America and it's escalating,

00:46:19.520 | you can either think, oh, all is lost,

00:46:22.240 | or you can, and I think you and I

00:46:24.320 | have lived our lives like this,

00:46:25.520 | you can live life more like a surfer,

00:46:27.680 | whereas you're never gonna control the ocean.

00:46:30.360 | But you can sure enjoy that ride and stop,

00:46:33.440 | if you're trying to control the waves, yeah, you're done.

00:46:36.740 | But if you're like, all right, I've got my board,

00:46:39.200 | I'm gonna see where this takes me,

00:46:41.080 | surfing, from what I understand, is a pretty fun activity.

00:46:44.240 | And also sometimes dangerous,

00:46:45.920 | but you'd have to ask Tulsi about that.

00:46:48.280 | - So we were offline talking about Stalin

00:46:53.280 | and the evils of the Soviet regime.

00:46:57.400 | - Yeah.

00:46:58.800 | - One of the things I mentioned,

00:47:00.040 | I watched the movie "Mr. Jones,"

00:47:02.700 | but it's about the 1930s, called the more,

00:47:06.480 | what would you say, the torture of the Ukrainian people

00:47:11.320 | by Stalin.

00:47:13.140 | One interesting thing to me,

00:47:15.280 | that I'd love to hear your opinion about,

00:47:17.560 | is the role of journalism in all of this.

00:47:20.040 | And also about 1930s Germany.

00:47:25.580 | So what's the role of journalists and intellectuals

00:47:30.580 | in a time when trouble is brewing,

00:47:34.340 | but it requires a really sort of brave and deep thinking

00:47:39.340 | to understand that trouble is brewing.

00:47:43.060 | Like if you were a journalist,

00:47:44.660 | or if you were just like an intellectual, a thinker,

00:47:47.700 | but also a voice in the space of public discourse,

00:47:52.380 | what would you do in 1930s about Stalin, about Haldemar?

00:47:57.380 | And what would you do about Nazi Germany in 1937, 1938?

00:48:02.580 | - So that's really funny that you asked that,

00:48:05.120 | because currently how the book is structured,

00:48:07.580 | it's like, books often follow three act structure, right?

00:48:10.980 | So act three is the 80s, act one is the 30s,

00:48:14.660 | and act two is gonna be like,

00:48:16.620 | all right, let's suppose you were in the 30s.

00:48:18.980 | Are you just gonna give up?

00:48:20.180 | Like, are you just gonna be like,

00:48:21.340 | well, we're screwed, and you'd be right to say,

00:48:23.580 | things are gonna be very bad for a long time.

00:48:25.620 | Or are you going to be one of those few who are like,

00:48:28.780 | we're gonna do something about this,

00:48:30.220 | and we're gonna go down swinging.

00:48:32.140 | There are two books I can recommend,

00:48:33.660 | which are just masterpieces that are written by women,

00:48:38.660 | that just are historians that are just superb.

00:48:41.120 | There's a book called "Beyond Belief" by Deborah Lippstadt.

00:48:43.380 | She talks about the rise of Nazi Germany

00:48:45.640 | as seen through the press.

00:48:47.520 | And what was amazing,

00:48:49.140 | and she does a great job empathizing with the press

00:48:51.580 | and understand their perspective,

00:48:53.360 | is we remember, and Chamberlain gets a bad rap,

00:48:55.740 | Neville Chamberlain, for kind of appeasing Hitler,

00:48:58.240 | because not that long ago, they had the Great War.

00:49:00.760 | They had World War I,

00:49:02.440 | and they had the carnage

00:49:04.680 | that the earth had never seen before.

00:49:06.740 | And when you had people made out of meat,

00:49:08.740 | meeting industrial machines,

00:49:09.980 | and plastic surgery was invented as a consequence of this,

00:49:12.580 | they're coming back mangled and disfigured, and for what?

00:49:16.000 | And this was a world where the Kaiser

00:49:18.620 | was the most evil person who ever lived.

00:49:20.660 | And we all had the Western propaganda about the Han,

00:49:23.580 | and all the rapes, and all this barbarism,

00:49:25.840 | and blah, blah, blah.

00:49:27.140 | So not that long later,

00:49:30.100 | when you're hearing all this propaganda,

00:49:32.300 | which was factual, about Hitler,

00:49:34.180 | it's like, we heard this.

00:49:36.020 | We heard this 20 years ago.

00:49:37.800 | This was all lies.

00:49:39.620 | Give us a break.

00:49:41.660 | And she has all the quotes from the different agencies

00:49:46.540 | and how they addressed it.

00:49:47.540 | Plus, they had very limited information.

00:49:49.140 | It's not like Nazi Germany was an open society

00:49:51.780 | where reporters can walk around,

00:49:53.020 | and they were under a lot of pressure as well

00:49:55.780 | in those areas.

00:49:56.700 | - And Hitler himself was pretty good at,

00:49:59.860 | he let some stuff slip,

00:50:01.180 | but usually he made it seem like he wants peace.

00:50:04.580 | He wants world peace.

00:50:05.620 | - This was amazing.

00:50:06.540 | They were making the argument that

00:50:07.980 | because all these Jews were being beaten up on the street,

00:50:11.260 | this proved, this was the hot take of the day,

00:50:13.900 | that Hitler was weak,

00:50:15.980 | because since Hitler's a statesman,

00:50:18.020 | and he can't control these hooligans,

00:50:20.080 | that shows his control and power is tenuous,

00:50:22.940 | and this is all gonna go away.

00:50:24.340 | - By the way, I mean, Hitler thought that too.

00:50:26.860 | He was kind of afraid of the branchers, whatever.

00:50:29.780 | He was afraid of these hooligans a little bit.

00:50:32.380 | They were useful to him,

00:50:34.140 | but at a certain point, yeah, they can get in the way.

00:50:37.840 | That's why he wanted to get control of the military,

00:50:40.260 | the army, their regiment.

00:50:42.100 | If you wanna take over the world,

00:50:43.500 | you can't do it with hooligans.

00:50:45.200 | You have to do it with an actual army.

00:50:47.100 | - And then you had Kristallnacht,

00:50:48.460 | which was a nationwide pogrom,

00:50:50.540 | and then all the news agencies universally were like,

00:50:54.860 | "Oh, crap, we got this wrong,"

00:50:57.340 | and the condemnation was universal.

00:50:59.220 | So that book traces the West's reaction

00:51:02.500 | to what's going on there,

00:51:03.700 | and including the reaction to the incipient Holocaust,

00:51:08.100 | as people being, you know, what they knew,

00:51:10.380 | when did they know.

00:51:11.620 | There was not ambiguity about people.

00:51:14.780 | I think there's this myth that she dispels

00:51:17.960 | that they didn't know the Holocaust was happening

00:51:20.760 | or they didn't care.

00:51:22.000 | They were aware,

00:51:23.400 | but they were already at war with Nazi Germany.

00:51:25.160 | Like, literally, what else could they do at that point,

00:51:29.040 | you know, to rescue all these Jews?

00:51:31.280 | So that's a superb book, and Ann Appelbaum,

00:51:34.360 | I think the book is called "Red Famine,"

00:51:36.360 | came out fairly recently, and she brings the receipts.

00:51:41.720 | And she's a, you know, this is something I really hate

00:51:44.940 | with the binary thinkers, where people think,

00:51:47.500 | "Oh, you know, if you're a Democrat,

00:51:48.740 | "you're basically a communist."

00:51:49.860 | They call Joe Biden a Marxist.

00:51:51.180 | It's just like, you know, she's a hard lefty.

00:51:53.060 | She has TDS, but this book just systemically

00:51:57.300 | lays out what Stalin did.

00:51:59.380 | - By the way, I'm triggered by the binary thinkers,

00:52:01.700 | and for those who don't know,

00:52:02.900 | TDS0011 is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

00:52:06.620 | - Yes, so they, you know, forced the starvation

00:52:10.500 | of this entire population, and they, it's not only that,

00:52:15.020 | it's like they knew if you weren't starving

00:52:18.400 | by looking at you, that you were hiding food.

00:52:21.460 | So they'd come back to your house at night

00:52:23.220 | and break your fingers in the door,

00:52:25.180 | or take, burn down your house,

00:52:26.900 | and now you're on the street without food,

00:52:28.400 | because you lied, 'cause this is the people's food.

00:52:30.780 | You're a kulak, you're a landowner.

00:52:32.260 | And very quickly, a kulak, which meant, like,

00:52:33.860 | peasant landowner, became anyone who had a piece of bread.

00:52:37.560 | And it was systemic and ongoing,

00:52:40.380 | and many people in the press did not believe it.

00:52:45.260 | There was a British journalist, I believe,

00:52:47.700 | who got out of the train, Ukraine,

00:52:50.260 | like one town earlier, and walked,

00:52:51.820 | and he described all this, and he was mocked and derided,

00:52:55.700 | and this is just anti-Russian propaganda,

00:52:58.060 | because at the time, in the '30s,

00:52:59.540 | this was, socialism had come to fruition.

00:53:02.080 | This was a noble experiment.

00:53:03.460 | I'd seen the future, and it works,

00:53:04.900 | as I think Sidney Webb was the guy who said that.

00:53:08.220 | And the premise was, let's see what happens.

00:53:11.940 | We've never tried something like that.

00:53:13.700 | And they were perfectly happy

00:53:15.820 | to have this experiment happen overseas

00:53:17.900 | at the price of the Russian people,

00:53:19.920 | because it's like, you know what?

00:53:21.140 | Maybe this'll be paradise on Earth.

00:53:23.140 | And there's a, I address this in my book as well,

00:53:26.660 | there's a superb essay, I think, by Eugene Genovese,

00:53:30.060 | and he talks about the question,

00:53:32.060 | the question being, what did you know,

00:53:34.820 | and when did you know it?

00:53:36.220 | What did you know about the concentration camps?

00:53:38.140 | What did you know about the starvation?

00:53:39.800 | What did you know about children being taught at school

00:53:41.860 | to turn in their parents for having some extra bread?

00:53:45.060 | And his conclusion is, we all knew,

00:53:47.540 | and we all knew from the beginning, every bit of it,

00:53:49.780 | and we didn't care, because we were more interested

00:53:52.380 | in promoting this ideology.

00:53:54.120 | So when people are kind of thinking

00:53:56.900 | the worst thing on Earth is like Robert E. Lee's statue

00:54:00.300 | being taken down to Washington, D.C.,

00:54:02.520 | we were being told,

00:54:05.140 | and especially in a much more limited news information world

00:54:09.300 | where now you have literally anyone can have a Twitter,

00:54:11.740 | but how many outlets were there,

00:54:13.500 | that this is, we're backwards, they're the future,

00:54:16.940 | they're scientific, we have the vagaries of the market,

00:54:19.620 | which led to the Great Depression,

00:54:21.340 | and when you see what was being put over

00:54:24.020 | on the American public at the time,

00:54:26.220 | anyone who thinks things are as bad now

00:54:28.820 | as they've ever been is simply delusional or ignorant.

00:54:31.860 | - Yeah, I would say just as a small aside,

00:54:35.140 | that's why reading, as I'm almost done

00:54:37.380 | with "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,"

00:54:39.940 | - Oh, yeah.

00:54:40.780 | - Is, it's a, refreshes, resets the palette

00:54:45.780 | of your understanding of what is good and evil in the world

00:54:49.340 | that I think is really useful now.

00:54:52.900 | Like, you know, what helps me be really positive

00:54:56.900 | and almost naive on Twitter and in the world

00:55:01.340 | is by just studying history.

00:55:03.620 | - Yeah.

00:55:04.460 | - And comparing it to how amazing things are today,

00:55:09.460 | but in that time, what would you do?

00:55:15.100 | What does a brave mind do?

00:55:21.060 | And not just acts of bravery,

00:55:26.060 | but how do you be effective in that?

00:55:30.020 | And that's something I often think about.

00:55:31.300 | It's sometimes easy to be an activist

00:55:33.540 | in terms of just saying stuff.

00:55:37.260 | It's hard to be effective at your activism.

00:55:40.380 | - One of the big questions historians have constantly

00:55:43.660 | is how did this happen?

00:55:45.260 | A, is to make sure it doesn't happen again,

00:55:46.700 | but this is Germany.

00:55:48.060 | This is not some kind of weirdo cult nation.

00:55:51.540 | They're very advanced, very,

00:55:53.580 | in the land of poets and philosophers.

00:55:55.660 | How did it get to that point

00:55:57.620 | that they're just shooting children

00:56:00.220 | and everyone's cheering for this?

00:56:02.060 | - Specifically on the antisemitism and the Holocaust.

00:56:04.620 | - No, totalitarianism, the cult of Hitler

00:56:07.060 | and just this whole kind of thing.

00:56:09.020 | - Sorry to interrupt, but there's two sides.

00:56:11.700 | I don't know if you want to separate them.

00:56:13.100 | One is the totalitarianism and the entirety

00:56:17.500 | of the Nazi regime, and then there's the Holocaust,

00:56:20.300 | which is like, you know, going, I would say,

00:56:25.740 | like very specifically, as I think you're about to describe,

00:56:30.740 | is like, you know, targeting Jews very much so.

00:56:34.860 | I don't know if you see those as two separate things.

00:56:36.780 | - I think they're very interconnected,

00:56:37.940 | but I think if you look at it,

00:56:40.900 | everyone thinks that they'd be the ones putting up Anne Frank,

00:56:44.980 | but if you look at the numbers,

00:56:46.020 | they'd be the ones calling the Stasi on her

00:56:48.860 | or whoever the people were at the time,

00:56:50.660 | and not the Stasi, obviously,

00:56:52.540 | and patting themselves on the back for it.

00:56:54.460 | - So sorry to pause on that.

00:56:55.300 | That's a really important thing.

00:56:57.060 | If you're listening to this,

00:56:58.660 | that, and you were in Germany at the time,

00:57:03.940 | you would have likely been willing to commit

00:57:07.740 | or at least keep a blind eye to the violence against Jews.

00:57:10.620 | Like, you have to really sit with that idea,

00:57:14.020 | that it would have been somebody who just sees this

00:57:17.700 | and is not bothered by it,

00:57:19.300 | and also very likely kind of understand this

00:57:22.700 | as a necessary evil or even a necessary good.

00:57:26.620 | - Yeah, and I think people think

00:57:30.020 | that they would be the abolitionists marching on Selma.

00:57:32.780 | The numbers don't add up to that at all,

00:57:36.100 | and I think the question would be,

00:57:37.660 | what social, my friend was on Tinder, my friend Matt,

00:57:40.820 | who's a great dude, and the question was,

00:57:43.860 | what's the most controversial opinion you have?

00:57:46.260 | This is in New York, and the girl wrote, "I hate Trump."

00:57:49.980 | And what people perceive themselves

00:57:52.140 | as being courageous in saying and doing,

00:57:55.340 | and what is the actual social costs of you saying

00:57:58.220 | or doing this are two very disconnected things.

00:58:00.900 | And we're also trained by corporate media

00:58:04.300 | to have completely vapid, uninteresting, banal ideas,

00:58:09.300 | and yet regard ourselves as revolutionaries.

00:58:11.940 | There are people who still in New York will take pride

00:58:16.380 | 'cause they have a gay friend.

00:58:18.220 | And it's like, first of all, who cares?

00:58:21.700 | But second of all, you are not a hero.

00:58:23.900 | And that person's not your prop, by the way.

00:58:26.780 | That's another big problem.

00:58:28.140 | - Which is why I'd like to give Richard Wolff a shout out

00:58:30.820 | for being an intellectual who talks about communism.

00:58:34.460 | I think it takes kind of a heroic intellectual right now

00:58:38.300 | to speak about communism seriously.

00:58:41.620 | There's difficult waters to tread, is that the expression?

00:58:45.700 | There's difficult paths to walk.

00:58:47.340 | I love watching a robot try to use idiom

00:58:49.460 | in a language he doesn't know.

00:58:50.300 | - Zero, zero, one, one.

00:58:52.860 | I'm quite deeply hurt by the binary comment.

00:58:57.340 | - Are you?

00:58:58.220 | Your feeling has gone from one to zero.

00:59:00.220 | (laughing)

00:59:02.420 | - Yeah.

00:59:03.260 | - What is love?

00:59:04.100 | - My buffers have overflown.

00:59:05.700 | No, but there's difficult, I feel like communism

00:59:10.500 | is universally seen as a bad thing currently

00:59:14.340 | in intellectual circles.

00:59:15.420 | - Yes.

00:59:16.260 | - And I think maybe some people disagree with that.

00:59:17.820 | People say like far left people are trying to,

00:59:21.980 | there's some people who argue the BLM movement

00:59:25.540 | is some kind of harm of a Marxist.

00:59:28.260 | I mean, I don't really follow the deep logic in that,

00:59:31.860 | whatever, but it's just--

00:59:34.500 | - Well, they said they were formed by Marxism,

00:59:35.860 | the founder, co-founder.

00:59:37.180 | - Yeah, but stating that is different than--

00:59:41.180 | - There's Marx the totalitarian,

00:59:43.500 | there's also Marx the revolutionary.

00:59:44.740 | I think they're talking more like we're revolutionaries,

00:59:47.020 | we're gonna overthrow the status quo.

00:59:48.540 | - Yeah, right, but we can have that further discussion,

00:59:51.620 | but I just don't think they speak deeply

00:59:54.060 | about political systems and saying communism

00:59:57.460 | is going to be the righteous system.

01:00:01.340 | There's not a deep intellectual discourse, what I mean.

01:00:03.740 | But if you were to try to be on stage

01:00:05.980 | with the Jordan Peterson,

01:00:07.380 | like to me the brave thing now,

01:00:10.540 | it would be to argue for communism.

01:00:13.620 | It'd be interesting to see, not many people do it.

01:00:16.900 | I certainly wouldn't be willing to do it.

01:00:18.300 | I don't have enough, first of all, I don't believe it,

01:00:20.780 | but second of all, it's a very difficult argument to make

01:00:23.740 | because you would get so much fire,

01:00:25.580 | which is why I like Richard Wolff,

01:00:27.180 | he's one of the people who is quite rigorously showing

01:00:31.300 | that there's some good ideas within the system of communism,

01:00:35.140 | specifically saying that attacking more

01:00:38.540 | the negative sides of capitalism.

01:00:42.260 | So saying that there is,

01:00:43.860 | that capitalism potentially is more dangerous than communism.

01:00:48.020 | I mean, I disagree with that, but I think it's a--

01:00:51.060 | - I love how something is like,

01:00:52.380 | we've got a body count of 60 million,

01:00:54.740 | but this, everything is, and potentially,

01:00:57.540 | like water can drown everyone on earth.

01:00:59.700 | So this is incoherent.

01:01:01.260 | - Well, I think nuclear weapons are bad,

01:01:03.340 | but nuclear energy is good.

01:01:04.980 | - Sure, well, nuclear weapons also can be good.

01:01:07.580 | You can easily make the argument,

01:01:08.820 | which I don't know that I subscribe to,

01:01:10.580 | that nuclear weapons prevented boots on the ground war,

01:01:15.580 | and it would cause them to be much more contained.

01:01:17.380 | - And they're also quite effective

01:01:19.300 | at changing the direction of an asteroid

01:01:21.580 | that's about to hit earth,

01:01:22.900 | as I've learned from a movie. - Armageddon.

01:01:24.740 | - Yeah, Armageddon.

01:01:25.900 | And they're actually useful, as Elon Musk has claimed

01:01:28.620 | for application for, prior to colonizing Mars,

01:01:33.620 | making it more habitable.

01:01:35.380 | - Oh, okay.

01:01:36.340 | - So it should change. - Gotta do something.

01:01:38.260 | (both laughing)

01:01:40.300 | - But, but, but, yes, but I guess what I'm saying

01:01:43.860 | is there's place for nuance,

01:01:46.380 | and there's some topics so hot, like communism,

01:01:49.540 | where nuance is very difficult to have.

01:01:53.100 | And I feel like with Nazi Germany,

01:01:55.980 | it was a similar thing at the time.

01:01:59.060 | - Let me tell, you wanna talk about Jeanette Rankin,

01:02:01.660 | who was one of my favorite people?

01:02:03.380 | So Jeanette Rankin was the first woman elected to Congress.

01:02:06.220 | She was elected before women's suffrage

01:02:08.740 | was passed the constitutional amendment for Montana.

01:02:12.100 | She was elected in 1916.

01:02:15.580 | She was one of a handful of people

01:02:18.940 | to vote against the US going into the Great War,

01:02:21.900 | which was the right call at the time.

01:02:23.420 | She was a pacifist, Republican as well, coincidentally.

01:02:26.780 | She lost her seat, ran again in, was it 1940?

01:02:31.780 | Got the seat again, and was the only person to vote

01:02:36.460 | against getting into World War II.

01:02:38.600 | It was not a unanimous choice.

01:02:40.740 | Jeanette Rankin was the one person,

01:02:42.340 | and she said, "You can no more win a war

01:02:44.260 | "than you can win a hurricane."

01:02:46.220 | So she's one of these interesting, and talk about bravery.

01:02:50.300 | You're the one vote after Pearl Harbor to say,

01:02:54.500 | "We're not doing this."

01:02:55.700 | And I mean, the pressure she must've been under at the time

01:02:58.820 | is, and of course, many people are not interested

01:03:01.580 | in hearing her perspective.

01:03:02.460 | She's crazy, she's evil, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:03.940 | It's also funny, someone on my Twitter,

01:03:05.580 | when I talked about her, goes,

01:03:06.620 | "Maybe she had Hitler's sympathies."

01:03:08.140 | Like, yeah, Ms. Rankin was a big fan of Hitler.

01:03:12.160 | That's, you figured it out, guys.

01:03:14.120 | - Do you think there's an argument to be made

01:03:16.520 | that United States should not have gotten involved

01:03:19.360 | in World War II?

01:03:20.280 | - Oh, easy, an easy argument.

01:03:21.700 | The argument, there's, I talk about this in The New Right.

01:03:24.980 | So on internet circles, there's something called

01:03:27.660 | Godwin's Law, which means the longer

01:03:30.000 | an internet conversation goes on,

01:03:32.720 | the probability someone gets compared to Hitler becomes one.

01:03:37.520 | In certain New Right circles,

01:03:40.080 | the longer the conversation goes on,

01:03:41.920 | the more likelihood that the argument will become,

01:03:43.720 | we should have been in World War II also becomes one.

01:03:45.960 | And the argument is, at the very least,

01:03:48.160 | stay back, let Hitler and Stalin kill each other off,

01:03:52.600 | and then go in and knock off the weaker one.

01:03:54.780 | And you're gonna be saving, destroying two nightmare systems.

01:03:59.120 | And I think that's an easy argument to make.

01:04:00.760 | Now, it's hard to pull off after Pearl Harbor,

01:04:02.840 | but in terms of strategy, I don't think that's a tough sell.

01:04:07.320 | - What about after Pearl Harbor?

01:04:08.960 | - I mean, that's what I'm saying, after Pearl Harbor,

01:04:10.480 | how are you gonna sell that to the people?

01:04:11.920 | The argument is blah, blah, the Holocaust.

01:04:13.600 | The Holocaust, there's no scenario

01:04:15.280 | where that doesn't happen, really,

01:04:16.800 | if you're, unless you're going in way earlier.

01:04:19.560 | But even so, Hitler had said,

01:04:21.040 | if the Jews launch another war,

01:04:23.480 | we're gonna wipe them from the face of the earth.

01:04:24.760 | So the Jews are being held hostage by Hitler

01:04:26.600 | as an argument for this.

01:04:27.640 | Another thing he did, which was diabolical,

01:04:31.560 | is in order to make it that people could not accept Jews

01:04:35.080 | as refugees, if they were gonna leave Germany,

01:04:37.680 | they had to be penniless.

01:04:39.560 | So now you have, it's not like they're coming over

01:04:41.400 | with money and they can take care of themselves.

01:04:43.300 | No, no, they're gonna be completely destitute.

01:04:45.560 | - Makes it harder to accept them, yeah.

01:04:47.040 | - Millions of destitute people who don't speak the language,

01:04:49.040 | it's a tough sell.

01:04:50.680 | - So speaking of Goodwin's Law,

01:04:53.200 | what do you make of this condition,

01:04:56.060 | Trump derangement syndrome?

01:04:58.920 | - Yeah.

01:04:59.760 | - And the idea of comparing Trump to Hitler?

01:05:05.000 | - I think it's despicable.

01:05:06.800 | And I'll give you an example, something parallel

01:05:08.920 | that I think more people should be regarding as despicable.

01:05:12.080 | Earlier in 2020, we were all told

01:05:15.680 | that unless we were in Syria immediately,

01:05:18.560 | the Kurds were gonna be exterminated.

01:05:20.860 | They invoked the Holocaust.

01:05:22.560 | This is gonna be another genocide.

01:05:24.680 | And if you're not for this, you should,

01:05:26.560 | you're basically forcing another Holocaust.

01:05:29.600 | None of the people who use this argument,

01:05:31.880 | we didn't go to Syria, the Kurds were not exterminated,

01:05:33.960 | just vanished from the news, had any consequences

01:05:36.800 | for using this kind of a comparison.

01:05:39.660 | So I think it's really kind of fatuous.

01:05:44.520 | And I think it's amazing that people think Hitler's

01:05:46.880 | the only tyrant who ever lived.

01:05:49.200 | Like everyone who's bad is specifically Hitler.

01:05:52.220 | You know how you know he's not Hitler?

01:05:54.060 | Because you can tweet at him,

01:05:56.160 | and no one comes to your house to kill your family.

01:05:58.520 | Like that's kind of a big difference.

01:06:00.960 | Also the difference between Trump and many of his critics

01:06:04.080 | is that his grandchildren will be raised as Jews.

01:06:06.680 | So that's also kind of a,

01:06:08.800 | and Deborah Lipschitz talks about this a lot.

01:06:11.520 | The New York Times at the time,

01:06:13.160 | there's another book called "Buried by the Times"

01:06:16.440 | which talks about the New York Times in the World War II.

01:06:18.680 | Because the idea that Jews weren't white was a Hitler idea.

01:06:23.680 | The New York Times at the time,

01:06:26.340 | Salzburger, wanted to be against this idea.

01:06:30.600 | So they specifically downplayed the antisemitism

01:06:34.440 | as opposed to the Nazis are being oppressive.

01:06:37.240 | So the argument that you can separate Nazism

01:06:40.600 | from antisemitism is a historical debate people have.

01:06:43.920 | And my perspective is, I think it's,

01:06:46.560 | I do not find it convincing that you can separate those two.

01:06:51.160 | I think antisemitism was essential to Nazism.

01:06:54.320 | I think Nazism and Mussolini's fascism

01:06:57.040 | have very big differences.

01:06:59.880 | - Do you think antisemitism is fundamental

01:07:03.040 | to who Hitler was?

01:07:04.520 | Or was it just the,

01:07:05.720 | so this is the interesting thing is like,

01:07:07.520 | it was a tool that he saw as being effective?

01:07:12.520 | - No, he believed it.

01:07:13.840 | - So why do you see those as intricately connected?

01:07:17.680 | Could Hitler have accomplished the same amount

01:07:21.240 | or more without the Holocaust?

01:07:23.680 | - Yeah, 'cause think about how many resources

01:07:25.320 | you got to divert at a time

01:07:27.280 | where you have Operation Barbarossa with Stalin.

01:07:29.400 | So why are they so connected?

01:07:32.200 | Is it because Hitler was insane?

01:07:36.200 | Or was he a bad strategist?

01:07:38.040 | - He was obviously a bad strategist.

01:07:39.480 | He took, he had no need to open a second front.

01:07:42.280 | His generals, my understanding, told him this is crazy.

01:07:45.320 | It didn't work out for him at all.

01:07:47.240 | I mean, to draw Russia and her resources into that war,

01:07:52.240 | it makes absolutely no sense in retrospect.

01:07:55.060 | There's a book about, I forget what it's called,

01:07:56.560 | where it talked about him at that point

01:07:57.960 | was just high all the time on amphetamines

01:08:00.000 | and that could have affected his thinking.

01:08:01.480 | - Yeah, there's a really good book on drugs.

01:08:03.280 | I mean, I forget what it's called,

01:08:05.160 | but yeah, it's a really good one.

01:08:06.840 | - But it was, I mean, scapegoating is a big part and parcel

01:08:11.840 | of the Nazi mythology.

01:08:15.400 | And this kind of one universal figure

01:08:17.480 | to explain this kind of skeleton key.

01:08:20.640 | - But it could have been the communists.

01:08:22.120 | I mean, that could have been the source of the hatred.

01:08:24.400 | So like-- - But the communists

01:08:25.320 | didn't get Germany into World War I,

01:08:26.980 | like he said the Jews did.

01:08:28.600 | - It seems to me that the atrocity of the Holocaust

01:08:33.600 | is the reason we see Hitler as evil.

01:08:37.040 | - No, the reason we see Hitler as evil

01:08:38.440 | is 'cause of World War II propaganda still.

01:08:40.420 | Because we don't see Stalin as evil.

01:08:42.160 | - Right, that's my main point. - We don't see Mao as evil

01:08:44.020 | to that extent.

01:08:45.520 | I think that-- - Why?

01:08:46.760 | Like, why would you say that?

01:08:47.600 | - You know why? - The nature

01:08:48.760 | of that propaganda.

01:08:49.840 | - Because I think a lot of the problem

01:08:51.920 | for the certain type of mentality

01:08:53.920 | is Hitler didn't mass murder equally.

01:08:56.400 | So as long as you're killing just one group,

01:08:58.780 | it's a problem.

01:08:59.620 | But if you're murdering everyone equally,

01:09:00.800 | all of a sudden it's like, eh, what are you gonna do?

01:09:02.880 | So the fact, like you were saying,

01:09:04.200 | the Haldimard is not common knowledge,

01:09:06.200 | the fact that Mao's 50 million dead

01:09:09.520 | are not common knowledge,

01:09:10.500 | and Richard Nixon can be raising a glass to him in China,

01:09:14.200 | these are things that I think the West

01:09:16.000 | has not done a good job reconciling.

01:09:18.020 | - Knock, knock. - Who's there?

01:09:21.400 | - Frank. - Frank who?

01:09:23.480 | - Frank, you for being my friend, Michael.

01:09:26.440 | - And the heart attacks will say,

01:09:28.120 | Frank, you for being my friend.

01:09:29.680 | - Is it, is it, is it?

01:09:31.880 | - You gotta do it like this.

01:09:32.880 | - Okay, all right. - Yeah.

01:09:34.480 | - Okay.

01:09:35.320 | Now back to Hitler.

01:09:38.680 | (laughing)

01:09:40.920 | Do you think Hitler could have been stopped?

01:09:45.920 | We kind of talked about it a little bit

01:09:48.960 | in terms of how to, what is the brave thing to do

01:09:52.560 | in the time of Nazi Germany, but do you think,

01:09:56.240 | I mean, I'm not even gonna ask about Stalin

01:09:58.000 | in terms of could Stalin have been stopped,

01:10:00.080 | 'cause probably the answer is there's no,

01:10:02.440 | but on the Hitler side, could Hitler have been stopped?

01:10:05.480 | - I think a lot of these things,

01:10:07.520 | a lot of luck has to play with it.

01:10:09.160 | He was almost assassinated.

01:10:10.600 | If you mean by like the West, it's very hard.

01:10:14.480 | I mean, yeah.

01:10:16.160 | - By the German people too, I mean, could,

01:10:18.480 | like if politically speaking, there was a rise to power

01:10:23.240 | through the '30s, through the '20s really,

01:10:25.960 | I mean, like can whoever, it's not about Hitler,

01:10:28.960 | it's about that kind of way of thinking,

01:10:32.880 | that totalitarian control that always leads to trouble,

01:10:37.760 | and sometimes on a mass scale,

01:10:40.000 | could that have been stopped in Germany

01:10:41.760 | or maybe in the Soviet Union?

01:10:44.200 | - Well, I think this is one of the best arguments

01:10:46.160 | against radicalization in the States,

01:10:48.120 | which is how do you engage when you have like 30%

01:10:52.600 | of the population who are members of a party,

01:10:55.760 | which is dedicated to systemically overthrowing

01:10:59.040 | the existing democracy?

01:11:00.480 | Stalin gave orders that the communists

01:11:04.800 | who had a pretty sizable population, the Reichstag,

01:11:09.160 | that their target shouldn't be the Nazis,

01:11:11.160 | but the liberals and the social Democrats,

01:11:14.200 | and they invented the term social fascist for them.

01:11:16.680 | So instead of, they're just like jihadis,

01:11:19.360 | instead of taking their sights on Nazism,

01:11:21.800 | they set their sights on the moderates,

01:11:24.000 | because they figured the choice between Hitler and us,

01:11:27.360 | we're gonna win, and this was a huge gamble,

01:11:29.840 | and they were all killed or had to flee,

01:11:32.400 | and the ones who fled were killed also by Stalin,

01:11:34.760 | so that's my understanding.

01:11:36.040 | So this is an easy way where he could have been

01:11:39.720 | certainly heavily mitigated.

01:11:41.000 | - What about France and England,

01:11:43.360 | that it was obvious that Hitler was lying,

01:11:45.920 | and they wanted peace so bad

01:11:48.880 | that they were willing to put up with it,

01:11:50.960 | even after Czechoslovakia?

01:11:52.480 | This is the anti-pacifist argument,

01:11:58.080 | which is like they should have

01:12:01.000 | threatened military force more.

01:12:04.720 | - But then the other anti-pacifist argument is,

01:12:07.520 | if you're gonna, remember Barack Obama had the red line,

01:12:11.280 | if you cross this red line in Syria, we're gonna go in,

01:12:13.720 | and Assad or whatever's like, yeah, cool,

01:12:15.520 | and he's like, oh, okay, well, sorry.

01:12:17.880 | So if you're a threatening force,

01:12:20.200 | there's the great song lyric,

01:12:21.640 | don't show your guns unless you intend to fight, right?

01:12:25.640 | So it's very clear with free countries

01:12:29.600 | through what's in the press,

01:12:31.040 | whether the institutional will is there

01:12:33.240 | to follow through on these threats,

01:12:35.240 | so I think it would have been very hard for Chamberlain

01:12:38.760 | to rally the British people to take on Hitler

01:12:42.400 | just after the great, I mean,

01:12:44.160 | the suffering that Britons took on the Great War,

01:12:46.840 | they still, obviously, it means so much more to them

01:12:49.040 | than it does to us in the West.

01:12:50.600 | - What about, what do you make of Churchill then?

01:12:52.960 | Like why was Churchill able to rally the British people?

01:12:56.760 | Why was he, like, do you give much credit to Churchill

01:13:01.680 | for being one of the great forces

01:13:06.240 | in stopping Hitler in World War II?

01:13:08.280 | - I don't think that's really in dispute.

01:13:10.560 | I think he was very much regarded

01:13:12.640 | as this kind of the right man at the right time,

01:13:15.840 | and I think Chamberlain took a gamble.

01:13:19.160 | The expression peace in our time was Neville Chamberlain

01:13:23.440 | when he signed the appeasement with Hitler,

01:13:25.360 | and he goes, "We now have peace in our time,

01:13:27.520 | "now go home and get a good night's sleep."

01:13:29.200 | That's what he said, 'cause he's like,

01:13:30.800 | "All right, he's gonna stop here."

01:13:33.520 | And it's not impossible that if you just gave,

01:13:37.840 | like if you gave Saddam Hussein Kuwait,

01:13:40.280 | it's not impossible that he's not gonna invade Saudi Arabia

01:13:44.080 | next, something like that.

01:13:45.080 | - Let's see, okay, but everything I've read,

01:13:48.440 | it's like, of course, there's, it's not impossible,

01:13:54.280 | but when you're in the room with Hitler,

01:13:58.920 | you should be able to see like man to man,

01:14:01.480 | like to me, a great leader should be able to see

01:14:06.600 | past the facade and see like, yes,

01:14:10.680 | everything in life is a risk,

01:14:12.560 | but it seems like the right risk to take with Hitler.

01:14:15.280 | Like it's surprising to me, I know there's charisma,

01:14:19.440 | but it's surprising to me people did not see

01:14:21.720 | through this facade.

01:14:23.360 | - I really hate the idea of hindsight

01:14:26.080 | in everything being 2020,

01:14:27.720 | and I think it's a very good idea generally,

01:14:30.240 | not most thinking generally, not in this specific instance,

01:14:32.800 | to give our ancestors more credit

01:14:34.880 | than we tend to give them,

01:14:37.080 | 'cause people often, here's a great example

01:14:39.120 | from another context, which is lightning rods.

01:14:42.040 | People always talk about religious people being stupid

01:14:44.120 | and superstitious, and they weren't,

01:14:46.800 | they often were very well reasoned.

01:14:48.920 | An example of this is lightning rods,

01:14:50.600 | which is every year, whatever town,

01:14:54.280 | the church was the tallest building,

01:14:56.160 | and that's the one that always got hit by lightning

01:14:57.960 | and got caught on fire.

01:14:59.520 | Now, what, it's a coincidence that it's always the church?

01:15:04.120 | Like that makes logical sense.

01:15:06.320 | Now, they didn't realize, well, it's because it's the tallest

01:15:09.360 | and therefore that attracts the electricity,

01:15:11.320 | and in fact, when they invented lighting rods,

01:15:13.120 | this was a controversy 'cause it's like,

01:15:14.840 | well, how is God going to show his displeasure

01:15:17.800 | if now it's striking this lightning rod

01:15:19.120 | and not burning down the church?

01:15:20.400 | So a lot of times, things are a lot more coherent

01:15:24.680 | than we give them credit for,

01:15:26.600 | and again, Chamberlain, he's the head of a parliamentary

01:15:30.720 | party, so he does not have the freedom, in a sense,

01:15:34.880 | that a Hitler would to be like, all right,

01:15:36.880 | we're doing this again, boys.

01:15:38.760 | We don't know what it's like in the room with Hitler.

01:15:40.360 | Come on, that's, we really have no idea.

01:15:43.400 | - But I think you have to think about that, right?

01:15:45.160 | - Yeah, but you can, I can very easily see him in the room

01:15:49.240 | being very calm and charming, and then you think,

01:15:52.440 | okay, the guy with the speeches is the act,

01:15:55.320 | and he's putting on a show for his people,

01:15:57.520 | and this is the real one.

01:15:59.360 | - Okay, so let's take somebody as an example.

01:16:02.800 | Let's take our mutual friend, Vladimir Putin.

01:16:06.560 | - Yes.

01:16:07.400 | - Okay.

01:16:08.240 | I don't know why saying his name makes my voice crack.

01:16:11.720 | (both laugh)

01:16:12.560 | - 'Cause you're scared he could hear you.

01:16:14.120 | It's like Beetlejuice.

01:16:15.200 | Vlad, yeah.

01:16:17.040 | - So there's a lot of people that--

01:16:21.760 | - Was he the one who built you?

01:16:23.080 | (both laugh)

01:16:24.680 | - No, that was a collaboration.

01:16:29.100 | What's, it's a double-blind engineering effort

01:16:33.280 | where I was not told of who my maker was.

01:16:39.600 | There's a backstory, but--

01:16:41.880 | - There's a talking cricket, Pinocchio.

01:16:45.680 | You'll be a real voice.

01:16:50.240 | - I talk about him quite a bit

01:16:54.720 | because I find him fascinating.

01:16:57.960 | Now, there's a really important line that people say,

01:17:01.660 | like, why does Lex admire Putin?

01:17:05.140 | I do not admire Putin.

01:17:07.340 | I find the man fascinating.

01:17:08.860 | I find Hitler fascinating.

01:17:10.940 | I find a lot of figures in history fascinating,

01:17:14.220 | both good and bad.

01:17:16.880 | And the figures, just as you said,

01:17:20.420 | that are with us today, like Vladimir Putin,

01:17:22.940 | like Donald Trump, like Barack Obama,

01:17:25.660 | it's difficult to place them

01:17:26.900 | on the spectrum of good and evil

01:17:28.600 | because that's only really applies

01:17:30.720 | to when you see the consequences of their action

01:17:33.560 | in a historical context.

01:17:35.460 | So there's some people who say that Vladimir Putin is evil.

01:17:39.900 | And based on our discussion about Hitler,

01:17:45.120 | that's something I think about a lot,

01:17:46.560 | which is in the room with Putin,

01:17:49.640 | and there's also a lot of historical descriptions

01:17:52.720 | of what it's like to be in the room

01:17:55.180 | with Hitler in the 1930s.

01:17:57.120 | There is a lot of charisma.

01:17:58.860 | In the same way, I find Putin to be very charismatic

01:18:03.860 | in his own way.

01:18:05.680 | The humor, the wit, the brilliance,

01:18:07.560 | there's a simplicity of the way he thinks

01:18:14.460 | that really, if taken at face value,

01:18:19.240 | looks like a very intelligent, honest man,

01:18:24.120 | thinking practically about how to build a better Russia,

01:18:29.120 | constantly, almost like an executive.

01:18:33.360 | He looks like a man who loves his job

01:18:39.060 | in a way that Trump, for example, doesn't,

01:18:42.280 | meaning he loves laws and rules and how to--

01:18:46.060 | - He has no adversarial press, so that's gonna help.

01:18:48.940 | - Yes.

01:18:49.780 | - And he's popular with his people.

01:18:50.600 | That's also gonna help enormously.

01:18:51.980 | - I'm talking about strictly the man,

01:18:55.560 | directly the words coming out of his mouth.

01:18:57.880 | Like all the videos and interviews I watch,

01:19:00.260 | based on that, not the press, not the reporting.

01:19:02.920 | You can just see that here's a man

01:19:05.280 | who's able to display a charisma that's not,

01:19:10.280 | like I can see, that's why I love Joe Rogan,

01:19:12.680 | is like you could tell the guy is genuine

01:19:17.180 | and is a good person.

01:19:18.480 | And you could tell immediately that

01:19:20.920 | once you meet Joe that he's going to be offline,

01:19:23.520 | also a good person.

01:19:24.500 | You could tell there's like signals that we send

01:19:26.980 | that are like difficult to kind of describe.

01:19:29.120 | In the same way, you could tell Putin is like,

01:19:33.680 | he genuinely loves his job

01:19:36.620 | and wants to build a better Russia.

01:19:37.960 | There's the argument that he is actually

01:19:42.040 | an evil man behind that charisma,

01:19:44.480 | or is able to assassinate people,

01:19:50.800 | limit free press, all those kinds of things.

01:19:53.040 | Like that's, what do we do with that?

01:19:59.480 | So what do human beings like journalists

01:20:03.280 | or what do other leaders,

01:20:05.880 | when they're in the room with Putin,

01:20:07.560 | do with those kinds of notions

01:20:09.200 | in deciding how to act in this world,

01:20:13.220 | in deciding what policy to enact,

01:20:15.200 | all those kinds of things.

01:20:16.040 | Just like with Hitler,

01:20:17.200 | when Chairman is in the room with Hitler,

01:20:19.920 | how does he decide how to act?

01:20:23.000 | - Well, let's go back to like my wheelhouse,

01:20:25.520 | which is North Korea, right?

01:20:27.200 | So when your entire world is based on being against Trump

01:20:32.200 | and everything Trump does is buffoonery

01:20:35.120 | or kind of productive,

01:20:36.980 | the conclusion of your reporting

01:20:38.640 | is gonna be pretty much given.

01:20:41.160 | I was very hopeful that there would be

01:20:44.160 | some positive outlooks or outcomes rather

01:20:46.560 | of Trump's meeting with Kim Jong-un.

01:20:49.760 | It looked like there was a space

01:20:51.240 | for things to go a bit better.

01:20:53.160 | I talked about it a lot at the time.

01:20:54.960 | And Trump was under no illusions

01:21:01.840 | about who he was dealing with.

01:21:03.920 | People pretend that, oh, he was kind of naive.

01:21:08.520 | He had one of the refugees at his State of the Union,

01:21:10.960 | you know, lifting up his crutch.

01:21:13.040 | The first thing he sat down and talked to Xi Jinping about

01:21:16.200 | in Mar-a-Lago right after he became inaugurated

01:21:18.340 | was North Korea.

01:21:19.480 | Barack Obama said that when he sat down Trump

01:21:22.640 | in the White House during the transfer of power,

01:21:24.840 | he said North Korea is the biggest issue.

01:21:26.960 | So I think a good leader,

01:21:30.580 | whether or not you consider Trump a good leader,

01:21:32.920 | has to be aware of, all right,

01:21:34.940 | I'm gonna have to have relationships of some kind,

01:21:39.400 | even if it's adversarial,

01:21:41.400 | with some really evil, evil, horrible people,

01:21:45.320 | which Kim Jong-un clearly is.

01:21:47.800 | - Well, I don't think there's anybody

01:21:50.160 | that has a perspective that North Korean,

01:21:53.240 | Kim Jong-un or Il are not evil, right?

01:21:57.560 | - Correct.

01:21:58.400 | - But with, in 1930s Germany,

01:22:03.800 | isn't it a little bit more nuanced?

01:22:06.240 | - Yeah, because Hitler hasn't done anything yet,

01:22:07.920 | and he's just a blowhard, and he's an anti-Semite, sure.

01:22:11.320 | But he's-- - What about, like,

01:22:12.760 | before the war breaks out,

01:22:15.000 | like, what about the basic, actionable anti-Semitism

01:22:20.000 | when you're, like, just attacking, hurting--

01:22:23.040 | - We're talking Kristallnacht,

01:22:23.960 | or we're talking about the Night of Long Knives?

01:22:26.040 | - Kristallnacht, so it's the Night of the Broken Glass.

01:22:28.520 | - Yeah, yeah, no, Long Knives is when he assassinated

01:22:30.360 | a bunch of his people, that was something different.

01:22:32.840 | - Yeah, so like, when you're actually attacking

01:22:36.440 | your own citizenry.

01:22:37.680 | - Yeah, that was universally condemned, Kristallnacht,

01:22:41.200 | and that was very shocking, its level of barbarism

01:22:45.400 | to the West, because I think we still want to believe,

01:22:51.560 | understandably, that things aren't as bad as they seem.

01:22:57.200 | We would rather, this is why, you know,

01:23:00.360 | the North Korea book I did, "Dear Reader,"

01:23:02.520 | is used in a humorous framework,

01:23:06.680 | because if you have to look, it's like looking to the sun.

01:23:09.520 | If you stare at it straight on, it's very hard to do,

01:23:12.520 | so you have to kind of look at it obliquely,

01:23:14.840 | and then you're kind of realizing

01:23:17.720 | the enormity of the depravity.

01:23:19.560 | And again, pogroms in Russia had been a thing

01:23:24.240 | for a very long time, and there's a difference between,

01:23:27.760 | okay, you know, we're gonna sack these villages

01:23:30.320 | and persecute people, and we're gonna systematically

01:23:33.240 | exterminate them, there's still levels

01:23:36.400 | of evil and depravity.

01:23:38.640 | - So you did write the book, "Dear Reader,"

01:23:40.480 | on Kim Jong-il, "Dear Reader,"

01:23:43.200 | the unauthorized autobiography of Kim Jong-il.

01:23:48.200 | So that's the previous leader of North Korea,

01:23:50.880 | current one is the un-- - Jong-un.

01:23:53.720 | - No creativity on the naming.

01:23:56.320 | - Well, no, this is intentional,

01:23:57.840 | 'cause it's a throwback to the dad.

01:24:01.840 | - So there's been only three leaders in North Korea?

01:24:06.000 | So we've talked about the history of Hitler and Stalin,

01:24:08.400 | and unlike these, I think it's important to understand

01:24:10.520 | that the history of those kinds of humans,

01:24:13.320 | the history of North Korea is not well written about

01:24:17.240 | or understood, which is why your book

01:24:18.760 | is exceptionally powerful and important.

01:24:21.120 | So maybe in a big, broad way,

01:24:26.000 | can you say who was, who is Kim Jong-il

01:24:31.000 | as a man, as a leader, as a historical figure

01:24:36.720 | that we should understand and why should we understand them?

01:24:39.000 | - So I wrote "Dear Reader" by going to North Korea

01:24:41.720 | and getting all their propaganda,

01:24:44.120 | which is translated into several languages,

01:24:45.840 | 'cause the conceit is everyone on Earth

01:24:47.200 | is interested in them and wants to mirror their ideology.

01:24:51.200 | - And he died in 2011. - 2011, yeah.

01:24:53.280 | - And you wrote the book in 2012.

01:24:55.640 | - I went there in 2012, I wrote the book, came out in 2014.

01:24:58.520 | So Kim Jong-il is, though not an intellect,

01:25:02.480 | North Korea's version of Forrest Gump,

01:25:04.600 | in that when they write their history,

01:25:05.840 | whenever something happens, he's there.

01:25:08.520 | And by telling his life story, it's in the first person,

01:25:12.280 | he's telling the history of North Korea.

01:25:14.400 | So I wanted to write the kind of book where in one book,

01:25:18.320 | and it's the kind of reading you could do

01:25:19.520 | in the beach or the bathroom,

01:25:21.080 | you're gonna get the entire history

01:25:22.320 | and know everything you need to know about North Korea

01:25:23.800 | in one accessible outlet.

01:25:26.280 | And it's, what people don't appreciate about North Korea,

01:25:30.880 | there's several things, how bad it is.

01:25:33.320 | And this didn't happen overnight.

01:25:35.260 | This was very systemic,

01:25:37.080 | that what this family did to that country,

01:25:39.320 | where piece by piece, they did everything in their power

01:25:43.000 | to hermetically seal it from the rest of the world,

01:25:46.200 | ramp up the oppression, keep any information from coming in.

01:25:50.360 | And they're very creative and innovative

01:25:54.120 | in their style of manipulation and control.

01:25:58.820 | So there is a farcical element.

01:26:03.080 | Let me give you an example.

01:26:04.120 | So people in the West kind of get it wrong.

01:26:05.740 | They talk about, oh, they talk about when Kim Jong-il

01:26:08.560 | played golf for the first time, he gets 17 holes in one.

01:26:11.580 | There's this one story about Kim Jong-il shrinking time.

01:26:15.620 | And this is a story, it sounds supernatural, but it's not.

01:26:20.220 | So Kim Jong-il is at a conference, the Dear Leader,

01:26:23.380 | and someone is giving a talk.

01:26:25.220 | And while that person is giving a talk,

01:26:27.340 | Kim Jong-il is taking notes and working on his work.

01:26:31.100 | And he has an aide who keeps interrupting him

01:26:32.700 | with questions and the speaker keeps stopping.

01:26:35.000 | And Kim Jong-il says, "Why are you stopping?"

01:26:37.880 | Goes, "I see you're doing these other things."

01:26:39.760 | And he goes, "No, no, I can do all these things at once."

01:26:42.400 | Everyone's shocked.

01:26:43.800 | And they said, "This is why Kim Jong-il looks at time

01:26:47.120 | "not like a plane, but like a cube, and he can shrink time."

01:26:51.520 | And my friend goes, "Do they mean multitasking?"

01:26:54.440 | And yes, Kim Jong-il is the only person in North Korea

01:26:57.520 | who's capable of multitasking.

01:26:59.940 | So in order to elevate him,

01:27:02.720 | they basically make everyone else in North Korea

01:27:05.360 | completely incompetent.

01:27:07.880 | And that has a purpose because should the leader go away,

01:27:14.320 | this country is gonna collapse overnight.

01:27:16.560 | So they laugh in the West

01:27:19.080 | about all these newspapers show him at the factory

01:27:22.320 | and he's at the fish hatchery, at the paper plant.

01:27:24.960 | They say the difference in North Korea

01:27:27.620 | is that the leader goes among the people

01:27:29.840 | and does what he calls field guidance.

01:27:31.820 | So he will go in that farm and be like,

01:27:33.460 | "This is what you need to do."

01:27:34.380 | And he'll go here and he's so smart, he's good at everything

01:27:37.740 | and thanks to him for sharing his wisdom with us.

01:27:39.840 | And he's not removed from the people

01:27:42.080 | like in every other country.

01:27:43.620 | - Why does that seem to go wrong with humans, do you think?

01:27:47.760 | That this kind of, the structure

01:27:50.120 | where there's this one figure, this authoritarian,

01:27:53.520 | this totalitarian structure where there's one figure

01:27:58.380 | that's a source of comfort and knowledge.

01:28:00.500 | - Kim Jong-il is not good at farming.

01:28:03.100 | Kim Jong-il is not good at the machinery.

01:28:05.960 | It's all a complete lie.

01:28:07.680 | Or the things he'll point out

01:28:08.760 | will be things that are completely obvious.

01:28:10.020 | So here's another example that they use.

01:28:12.840 | In North Korea, they have something called

01:28:14.300 | the Tower of the Juche Idea, which is an obelisk,

01:28:16.660 | which looks like the Washington Monument,

01:28:18.340 | but it's completely different

01:28:19.780 | 'cause it's got this like plastic torch at the top.

01:28:22.900 | And they talk about in their propaganda

01:28:25.420 | how all the architects got together and they said,

01:28:29.920 | "Oh, we should make this the second tallest

01:28:33.920 | "stone obelisk in the world."

01:28:35.380 | And Kim Jong-il says, "No, let's make it the tallest."

01:28:39.260 | They're like, "Oh, we never thought of this before."

01:28:41.560 | And the way it's presented as it,

01:28:43.540 | and like he's the first person to think of this,

01:28:45.980 | like these architects are having a brainstorming session

01:28:48.420 | at the Tower of the Juche Idea.

01:28:49.460 | They're like, "All right, we gotta do something innovative

01:28:52.360 | "to put North Korea on the map.

01:28:53.540 | "What can we do?

01:28:54.620 | "How about second biggest?"

01:28:56.380 | He's gonna go for this.

01:28:58.100 | And then he's like, "Oh, we never thought of this."

01:28:59.940 | It's so, because I present it at face value,

01:29:04.780 | people sometimes say the book's a satire.

01:29:06.700 | It's not a satire.

01:29:07.560 | I downplayed all this stuff.

01:29:09.340 | It's a farce.

01:29:10.180 | Here's another example.

01:29:11.240 | North Korea is very big,

01:29:12.580 | and I think Russia is to some extent too,

01:29:14.220 | on amusement parks, fun fairs, they call them,

01:29:16.100 | in the British style,

01:29:17.700 | because this is a chance for the people

01:29:19.260 | to all get together.

01:29:20.820 | And there was this amusement park.

01:29:22.780 | It's almost like South Park, Cartman,

01:29:24.980 | where there's all these rides.

01:29:27.660 | And Kim Jong-il's like, "I'm not gonna let any elderly

01:29:32.380 | "or children take these rides

01:29:34.380 | "until I put myself in danger and ride them myself."

01:29:39.380 | And they go, "But dear leader, it's drizzling."

01:29:42.700 | And he goes, "No, I have to make sure these rides

01:29:46.480 | "are gonna be safe for everyone,

01:29:47.980 | "even during the light rain."

01:29:49.260 | They go, "Well, can we go on these rides with you?"

01:29:51.140 | "No, no, no, I have to be the courageous one."

01:29:54.300 | And he's riding all the rides,

01:29:55.500 | and they're standing there crying at his courage.

01:29:58.020 | But that's what's,

01:29:58.980 | and you ask all the thing in one power,

01:30:00.880 | it's like, listen, I'm quite confident

01:30:02.940 | that those fun fair engineers are in a position

01:30:06.200 | to ride Modest Mouse, whatever it's called, by themselves,

01:30:09.180 | and be like, "Yeah, okay, this is good for the kids."

01:30:12.100 | Although to be fair, some of those amusement parks

01:30:14.380 | are pretty rusty and dangerous.

01:30:16.420 | - Yeah, but that kind of propaganda,

01:30:19.780 | I guess what I'm playing a devil's advocate,

01:30:22.220 | is like, it's comforting and it's useful,

01:30:25.260 | but it does seem that that naturally leads

01:30:28.740 | to an abuse of power.

01:30:32.060 | - No, it's not, how can it be used correctly?

01:30:34.180 | No one person has the intellect or the mind

01:30:37.620 | to understand the entirety of an economy,

01:30:40.700 | let alone every individual field of interest.

01:30:43.420 | - Well, for example,

01:30:44.240 | you can have an artificial intelligence system

01:30:45.860 | that understands the entirety of it.

01:30:48.540 | - Did your affect just completely change?

01:30:50.500 | The mask slipped?

01:30:52.180 | I guess you could have an artificial intelligence system.

01:30:54.100 | (both laughing)

01:30:55.580 | - But the question is, can that,

01:31:00.180 | I mean, the human version of that is like,

01:31:03.340 | you can hire a lot of experts, right?

01:31:05.180 | You can be an extremely good manager.

01:31:07.380 | - Yeah, and since everything's dynamic,

01:31:09.780 | they're not gonna have the data to kind of manage it well.

01:31:13.500 | - It seems that there's a,

01:31:14.700 | like what George Washington allegedly did,

01:31:17.900 | it seems like most humans are not able to fire themselves.

01:31:21.380 | You're not able to like,

01:31:23.900 | - Yeah, you're right.

01:31:24.740 | - Ultimately be a check on your own power,

01:31:25.940 | but that's not, if I was like,

01:31:28.460 | if I was creating a human,

01:31:30.020 | it's like, that's not an obvious bug of the system

01:31:34.980 | that we would not be able to fire ourselves

01:31:39.980 | to know when we have,

01:31:42.700 | I mean, it seems like that's something

01:31:44.140 | you have to know always.

01:31:45.420 | Like that's something I often wonder is like,

01:31:47.780 | am I wrong about this?

01:31:49.500 | - Well, this is what we talked about earlier.

01:31:50.900 | What are the safety valves to make sure that, okay,

01:31:54.140 | if I am incorrect or my knowledge is finite,

01:31:57.420 | Plato's cave kind of thing,

01:31:59.220 | what mechanisms are in place that my mistake

01:32:02.140 | or limited information isn't gonna have

01:32:04.420 | deleterious consequences?

01:32:06.660 | And North Korea does not really have that.

01:32:07.940 | And as a result, they had polio in the '90s.

01:32:10.580 | - So there is a, you write about it straight,

01:32:14.780 | but there's a humor to it

01:32:16.180 | because it's an absurdly evil place, I suppose.

01:32:20.380 | - Yeah.

01:32:21.940 | - A bunch of people, I asked,

01:32:25.700 | I said that I'm talking to you

01:32:27.020 | and a bunch of people asked questions.

01:32:28.820 | - Oh, I gotta hear from the plebs.

01:32:31.340 | You asked me before we started recording,

01:32:32.820 | I specifically said no, it was in my contract.

01:32:35.060 | - Yeah, and I gave you all the pink Skittles or whatever.

01:32:39.460 | But they--

01:32:41.100 | - So pink, you don't think.

01:32:43.580 | - I'm trolling, Michael.

01:32:44.540 | Let me explain to you how that works.

01:32:46.460 | If people should go at malice.locals.com

01:32:50.860 | and sign up and pay,

01:32:53.940 | I think the membership fee is several thousand dollars.

01:32:56.180 | It's very, it's not--

01:32:58.660 | - It's not for the layman.

01:32:59.860 | - Yeah, but the service is excellent.

01:33:02.300 | You get a coat with it.

01:33:05.300 | But yeah, I went there,

01:33:06.620 | posted a lot of really brilliant people there.

01:33:08.580 | People should join that community

01:33:10.460 | if you find Michael interesting

01:33:13.420 | or if you just wanna go and say,

01:33:14.940 | well, he's wrong, it's a great place to have that--

01:33:17.340 | - It's not a great place for that, I assure you.

01:33:19.740 | - Yeah, a lot of really kind people.

01:33:23.060 | So anyway, there's a bunch of people

01:33:26.460 | asked that we should talk about humor.

01:33:28.500 | - Okay.

01:33:29.780 | - So pretend, hypothetically speaking,

01:33:32.180 | that I'm a robot

01:33:33.220 | asking you to explain humor to me.

01:33:38.220 | So dear reader, I mean, there's a humor,

01:33:42.820 | there's just so wonderfully dance

01:33:47.060 | between serious dark topics

01:33:49.980 | and then seriously dark humor.

01:33:54.940 | Can you try to, if you were to write like a,

01:33:59.420 | I don't know, a Wikipedia article,

01:34:00.740 | maybe a book about your philosophy of humor,

01:34:03.540 | what do you think is the role of humor in all of this?

01:34:05.660 | - A joke is like a baby.

01:34:06.900 | You can't dissect it and then put it back together

01:34:09.500 | and expect it to work.

01:34:10.660 | Trust me on this one.

01:34:12.060 | Despite, no matter how you carve that thing up,

01:34:14.980 | it's not gonna be working the next day

01:34:17.900 | and you need it to sew those little sneakers

01:34:20.180 | with those hands.

01:34:21.020 | - Oh.

01:34:22.340 | - I don't know that humor is something

01:34:24.540 | that is very explainable.

01:34:26.180 | People, there's something called claptor

01:34:28.420 | where this is like the worst kind of humor

01:34:30.540 | where people applaud 'cause they agree

01:34:32.340 | with what you're saying as opposed to laptor.

01:34:35.180 | Well, that's the kind of--

01:34:37.020 | - That's the poetry reading?

01:34:37.900 | - Yeah, and the drag queens do that too.

01:34:41.340 | I think 'cause they have the nails.

01:34:43.540 | This, you laugh, it's a visceral reaction.

01:34:45.860 | When someone on Twitter is insisting,

01:34:48.060 | you know, that's not funny,

01:34:49.660 | you're not in a position to make that claim.

01:34:52.300 | And let's go back to North Korea.

01:34:54.900 | I had a refugee I knew and he went to high school here

01:34:59.420 | and he was talking to his buddies and they said,

01:35:02.000 | "Hey, remember when we were kids, we had Pokemon?"

01:35:05.260 | And he goes, "Oh yeah, except instead of Pokemon,

01:35:06.860 | "I watched my dad starve to death," which is the truth.

01:35:09.580 | Now, who are any of us to tell him not to make that joke?

01:35:14.580 | I don't know what it's like watching anyone,

01:35:17.100 | including my dad, starve to death.

01:35:19.300 | And my dad's fatty so he's not going hungry anytime soon.

01:35:22.400 | So it's very bizarre to me

01:35:27.940 | when people feel comfortable precluding others

01:35:32.060 | from making jokes, especially,

01:35:35.220 | and I think this is a very Jewish thing,

01:35:36.440 | like this kind of gallows humor,

01:35:38.300 | especially when it's laughing about a personal loss

01:35:42.580 | or experience that they've had.

01:35:44.100 | Humor is a great way to mitigate pain and suffering.

01:35:49.100 | But it's also, I think this is why it's a Jewish thing,

01:35:52.700 | it's a black thing,

01:35:53.660 | when you are a marginalized community or poorer, it's free.

01:35:56.920 | Telling stories, telling jokes or songs,

01:36:01.220 | you don't have to have money,

01:36:03.140 | but you can have joy and happiness.

01:36:05.600 | And I think that's why you find it so much more

01:36:07.680 | in kind of lower status communities

01:36:09.960 | than you find in wasps who are notoriously humorless.

01:36:14.180 | - Which is strange because people pay you a lot of money

01:36:16.480 | for the jokes you do, so it's not really free.

01:36:20.340 | - Yeah, well, no, they don't have to pay me.

01:36:22.420 | It's appreciated but not expected.

01:36:25.900 | - I find my voice cracking every time

01:36:27.460 | I try to make a joke.

01:36:28.300 | Like I fail miserably at this.

01:36:30.360 | Some people--

01:36:32.660 | - You're still in beta, that's why.

01:36:34.740 | - Alpha.

01:36:35.580 | - Sure.

01:36:36.780 | - Being an alpha's like being a lady.

01:36:38.140 | If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.

01:36:40.220 | - No, I meant alpha version, not alpha male.

01:36:42.740 | - Okay.

01:36:43.580 | I don't know if you're a robot gobbledygook.

01:36:46.460 | - I'm not going there, okay.

01:36:49.220 | - Who are you talking to?

01:36:51.260 | - In my own head, I'm talking to myself in my own head.

01:36:54.360 | Okay, speaking of North Korea,

01:36:56.500 | some people say that, you know,

01:37:00.800 | I've read that comedy is about timing.

01:37:05.180 | Well, first of all, do you agree?

01:37:06.540 | And second of all--

01:37:07.780 | (laughing)

01:37:08.980 | - No, I'm serious.

01:37:09.820 | It's very much about timing.

01:37:10.660 | - You're saying yes, that timing, yeah, it's funny.

01:37:13.260 | Okay.

01:37:14.100 | - Isn't it comedy is tragedy plus timing?

01:37:16.060 | Isn't that the full reference?

01:37:18.260 | - What is it, the interrupting cow knock-knock joke?

01:37:20.720 | I'm not gonna do it, but--

01:37:22.420 | - That's not a timing thing.

01:37:23.780 | It's more of a repetition and then the twist ending.

01:37:27.580 | - No, the moo.

01:37:28.420 | - Oh, the moo, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:37:29.740 | - Interrupting cow.

01:37:30.780 | You're thinking of the banana one.

01:37:33.260 | - Anyway, I'm not going there.

01:37:37.060 | Yet, you're--

01:37:37.900 | - Who are you talking to?

01:37:39.460 | - In my own head.

01:37:40.300 | - You have a thick floor.

01:37:41.580 | Do you have any earpiece?

01:37:42.780 | Are you small wonder?

01:37:43.780 | Do you stand sleeping in a wardrobe?

01:37:46.100 | - Yeah, God, that's so British.

01:37:49.360 | But yet, you're very--

01:37:51.180 | - I don't wanna say in a closet

01:37:52.740 | 'cause that has connotations.

01:37:54.260 | - Let's both come out of the closet for a second.

01:37:57.580 | - I love you. - And let's talk about--

01:37:58.900 | - I love you, Lex.

01:38:01.100 | I wasn't saying I love you, Alex.

01:38:02.820 | I was saying I love you, Lex.

01:38:04.860 | - Oh, you're talking to me.

01:38:06.020 | - Yes, through the screen.

01:38:07.820 | - So, you think about me when you're with another man.

01:38:11.740 | - I watch you when you're sleeping.

01:38:13.500 | - Okay, so you're--

01:38:15.540 | - Like the Vengal song, "Eternal Flame."

01:38:16.380 | - You're really active on Twitter.

01:38:18.300 | - Yeah.

01:38:19.380 | - And somebody else asked

01:38:21.020 | on your overly expensive membership site.

01:38:24.080 | - My grift site.

01:38:28.300 | - How do you find humor different in writing on Twitter

01:38:33.300 | versus spoken humor?

01:38:34.700 | So, if-- - Oh, that's a great question.

01:38:36.260 | - If humor is about timing,

01:38:38.100 | how do you capture the timing and the brilliance

01:38:41.180 | of the whatever is underlying humor

01:38:44.060 | in a context of Twitter?

01:38:45.260 | Like, another way to say it is,

01:38:47.640 | how do you be funny and yet thoughtful on Twitter?

01:38:53.540 | - So, with Twitter, you have to be the first one

01:38:57.780 | to the punchline.

01:38:58.740 | So, when Ron Paul had his stroke,

01:39:00.380 | I was immediately being like,

01:39:01.780 | he's still the most articulate libertarian.

01:39:03.700 | He's doing a great Joe Biden impression right now.

01:39:06.020 | All the libertarians got ass-mad.

01:39:08.300 | And people are like, too soon.

01:39:10.200 | Or like when someone dies, you're making the jokes about them.

01:39:12.480 | It's like, when do you wanna make the jokes

01:39:14.780 | about someone just died a week later?

01:39:16.020 | It doesn't make any sense.

01:39:16.920 | Now, you might--

01:39:17.760 | - Too soon is perfect timing.

01:39:18.780 | - Or you could say, it's not appropriate ever.

01:39:21.260 | But too soon does not make sense in this context.

01:39:24.900 | So, that is something that I enjoy doing.

01:39:28.460 | It's also fun ruffling people's feathers,

01:39:31.100 | which is something I enjoy doing.

01:39:32.580 | I think spoken versus writing is very different

01:39:37.580 | because when you are having good banter with someone,

01:39:41.760 | for me as the audience, knowing that it is on the spot

01:39:47.620 | really adds an element of humor

01:39:50.220 | 'cause then it's like, wow, this is fun.

01:39:51.800 | It's like a ping pong match or something.

01:39:54.060 | Whereas in writing, you're losing the tone,

01:39:57.900 | you're losing the relationship of a dynamic conversation.

01:40:02.660 | And a lot of times the joke

01:40:05.500 | is just gonna be a different type of joke.

01:40:07.660 | - Well, it's funny, but Twitter, there's a sense,

01:40:10.580 | especially your Twitter, that you just thought of that

01:40:15.580 | and you just wrote it.

01:40:16.900 | - Yes.

01:40:17.740 | - Like there's a feeling like it's literally you talking

01:40:22.300 | as opposed to what I imagine is there's some editing

01:40:26.460 | or it doesn't look like it.

01:40:27.940 | Whoever your editor is should be fired.

01:40:29.900 | (laughing)

01:40:32.340 | There's an interesting effect actually.

01:40:33.940 | If I want to say something, I don't know,

01:40:36.940 | about something that's bothering me

01:40:41.740 | about the presidential election or something like that.

01:40:44.380 | Like what is the actual central idea

01:40:47.260 | that I'm trying to convey to myself?

01:40:48.780 | Like if say I was having a hypothetical conversation

01:40:51.220 | with myself.

01:40:52.060 | - Okay.

01:40:52.900 | - What?

01:40:53.720 | No, not going there.

01:40:54.560 | (laughing)

01:40:55.540 | Why am I putting my pants back on?

01:40:57.460 | I'm more comfortable this way.

01:40:58.980 | Promo code malice20, sheathunderwear.com.

01:41:04.340 | Okay.

01:41:05.180 | (laughing)

01:41:07.420 | - That's sheath, what's the website?

01:41:12.580 | - Sheathunderwear.com.

01:41:13.620 | - Sheathunderwear.com, promo code malice20.

01:41:17.420 | And I forgot, why is that underwear really nice?

01:41:19.780 | - Because it has a dual pouch technology

01:41:21.980 | to keep your man parts separate.

01:41:23.300 | They've also got woman stuff,

01:41:24.500 | but I don't know how that works.

01:41:25.540 | There's a thing going somewhere.

01:41:27.500 | - And the material's really refreshing.

01:41:29.100 | I mean, it's really a good--

01:41:29.940 | - And it makes your ass look good.

01:41:31.780 | - That's promo code malice20.

01:41:35.380 | - And it's made by a former vet 'cause he was in Iraq.

01:41:39.220 | So that's why I like promoting it.

01:41:40.780 | - Yeah.

01:41:41.620 | But when I'm writing the tweet,

01:41:44.220 | it forces me to think deeply about the core of the message.

01:41:49.540 | - Okay.

01:41:50.380 | - But what I found, this really interesting effect,

01:41:52.900 | I don't really do much editing on the tweet.

01:41:55.020 | I'll just think and then I'll write it.

01:41:57.860 | And then when I post it, like submit,

01:42:01.340 | I immediately see the tweet very differently

01:42:04.920 | than it was in my mind.

01:42:06.620 | I often delete, I delete, I don't know,

01:42:08.820 | some percentage of tweets about two, five seconds after.

01:42:13.380 | - Wow.

01:42:14.220 | - I don't know, it's something, once you send it,

01:42:17.020 | it's why the Gmail send features,

01:42:19.140 | undo send features really nice.

01:42:21.400 | It's like, it just changes the way I see the thing.

01:42:24.200 | So--

01:42:25.040 | - That's very interesting.

01:42:26.300 | - But I really love it that you can delete it

01:42:28.260 | because when I say stuff out in the wild,

01:42:32.900 | like to other humans, like--

01:42:35.020 | - Other humans.

01:42:35.860 | - Spoken word is like, you can't delete what you just said.

01:42:40.740 | And I often regret the things I say, like on the spot.

01:42:44.900 | Like I shouldn't have said that.

01:42:46.220 | - Really?

01:42:47.060 | - Yeah.

01:42:47.880 | - I don't have that.

01:42:48.720 | (laughing)

01:42:49.660 | - Well, again, whoever your editor is,

01:42:52.820 | what is it, Edith Piaf,

01:42:55.540 | Jean-Eric A. Han.

01:42:58.460 | - Wow, your French is as bad as your English.

01:43:01.420 | I don't have any tweets I regret

01:43:04.740 | because if I sent a tweet that I regretted,

01:43:08.980 | I would make amends.

01:43:11.220 | I would make it a point if I was needlessly offensive

01:43:14.820 | to somebody or hurtful or accidentally,

01:43:17.900 | I would make sure to fix it and go out of my way

01:43:21.980 | to make sure that person feels vindicated

01:43:24.860 | and validated by accepting my apology.

01:43:27.140 | That has never happened, had to happen, thankfully.

01:43:30.100 | I'm also someone who is not big on taking the bait.

01:43:35.100 | Recently, some people have come after me pretty hard.

01:43:40.660 | And my perspective is that it's not really about me.

01:43:44.500 | It's either I represent something to them.

01:43:46.900 | I'm just some jackass with a Twitter.

01:43:49.460 | So if you're getting this riled up over me,

01:43:51.880 | it's not really about me.

01:43:53.020 | Maybe I'm delusional, but that's how I look at it.

01:43:55.460 | So if they are trying to provoke me

01:43:57.100 | into this kind of heated exchange, I will never do it

01:44:01.660 | because I'm not interested in it.

01:44:03.300 | And I don't think there's gonna be any,

01:44:04.740 | it's like Jeanette Rankin, you can't win.

01:44:08.220 | It's just gonna be like trying to win a hurricane.

01:44:10.580 | There's no hero here.

01:44:12.300 | - Well, let me ask you about this

01:44:13.460 | 'cause somebody also asked it

01:44:14.820 | on your overly expensive membership site

01:44:17.580 | that they were saying that they're an academic.

01:44:20.580 | They wonder 'cause I'm an, quote unquote,

01:44:22.540 | I'm not an academic,

01:44:23.560 | but I do still have an affiliation with MIT.

01:44:26.020 | The word academic is just dirty.

01:44:28.580 | It's like-- - It is.

01:44:30.400 | - Which is a problem that needs to change.

01:44:32.460 | Just like the word nerd is dirty.

01:44:34.820 | - No, academic needs, is gonna be the next front to open

01:44:37.540 | and they're gonna be very vilified.

01:44:39.060 | We're coming for them and it's gonna be very, very ugly.

01:44:41.980 | And I cannot wait.

01:44:43.420 | - No, but there needs to be a place,

01:44:45.500 | a different term for people who love research

01:44:50.140 | and knowledge and-- - Oh, that's true.

01:44:51.900 | - Like you have to-- - No, you're right, 100%.

01:44:53.740 | - You're right.

01:44:54.580 | So like you have to clarify what you mean by academic.

01:44:58.040 | And right now the word academic means a very,

01:45:00.660 | in the intellectual public discourse, it means the enemy.

01:45:04.280 | And there's a lot of people that perhaps deserve

01:45:07.380 | that targeted vilification, but like a lot that don't.

01:45:12.380 | They're just curious people.

01:45:13.780 | - Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

01:45:15.020 | - Building robots that will one day destroy you.

01:45:18.380 | Voice cracks every time I make a joke.

01:45:20.300 | - You're not, 'cause it's just--

01:45:21.220 | - I can't do this. - 'Cause you're not

01:45:22.060 | making a joke, it's you're telling a joke.

01:45:24.820 | - I'm editing.

01:45:26.420 | Can I delete that joke?

01:45:28.340 | Okay, it's not even a joke.

01:45:30.380 | Building robots that will one day kill us.

01:45:34.060 | Humans-- - Oh, God willing.

01:45:36.660 | - God willing, humans are the joke.

01:45:38.580 | That's why I'm cracking.

01:45:40.020 | My voice is cracking.

01:45:42.060 | (laughing)

01:45:42.900 | - What were even, what was I even fucking saying?

01:45:45.700 | Academics.

01:45:46.540 | But why--

01:45:48.260 | - My local, someone had a question, they're an academic.

01:45:50.300 | - Right, they're an academic.

01:45:51.500 | They're saying like, are you worried that, you know,

01:45:55.340 | in academia, associating yourself with a sort of somebody

01:46:00.340 | who has, who can be misconstrued to have radical ideas,

01:46:05.260 | like the two examples they gave

01:46:06.640 | is Michael Malice and Joe Rogan.

01:46:09.940 | Does Joe have any radical,

01:46:11.700 | I wouldn't consider him radical at all.

01:46:13.260 | - Well, we can talk about it.

01:46:15.220 | - But Joe is, I think, a bad example.

01:46:17.140 | He's quite centrist to me.

01:46:19.620 | - Well, he could have, for example,

01:46:22.060 | like what has Joe been attacked on?

01:46:24.420 | Is, for example, on the topic of like transgender,

01:46:27.860 | - Athletes and sports. - Athletes and sports.

01:46:32.300 | There's, what else?

01:46:34.580 | I mean, he's been pro Bernie Sanders and--

01:46:37.620 | - That's hardly radical.

01:46:38.820 | - Pro Trump or like giving Trump a pass.

01:46:43.300 | - Yeah, not anti-Trump.

01:46:44.620 | - Not anti-Trump. - Yeah.

01:46:46.020 | - What else?

01:46:48.300 | Just--

01:46:49.460 | - But none of these are radical.

01:46:50.700 | - Meat, meat stuff being pro meat versus anti-vegan.

01:46:55.260 | - Yeah.

01:46:56.220 | - You know, all those kinds of things.

01:46:57.340 | But you can be misconstrued and saying,

01:47:00.640 | there's, I think, a highlight,

01:47:01.700 | and my mom actually wrote to me about this,

01:47:03.580 | which is hilarious. - Yoshika.

01:47:05.060 | - Yoshika, thank you.

01:47:07.100 | I like how you jotted it down.

01:47:08.700 | That's when it's important.

01:47:09.860 | - Well, let me see, your mom wrote to you, Yoshika.

01:47:11.580 | - That's a sign, my voice cracks,

01:47:13.620 | a sign when Michael Malice makes a funny joke

01:47:16.460 | is when you jot something down.

01:47:18.020 | (laughing)

01:47:19.060 | - Yoshika.

01:47:19.900 | (speaking in foreign language)

01:47:23.060 | - He writes it, and then the next time he just crosses it out.

01:47:25.940 | (laughing)

01:47:27.100 | It's a good point, yeah.

01:47:28.700 | It's like Joe Biden, the debates.

01:47:30.820 | Okay.

01:47:31.660 | - I did also just crap my pants.

01:47:34.180 | (laughing)

01:47:36.580 | - So--

01:47:37.420 | - It's like a mud slide down here.

01:47:39.300 | - There is a, I mean, he's a comedian.

01:47:42.380 | You have a comedian side to you, right?

01:47:44.580 | I mean, you've talked a lot. - Humorist, yeah.

01:47:46.540 | - Humorist side, yeah, humorist.

01:47:48.780 | So you can misconstrue Joe as being

01:47:51.060 | somehow a radical thinker,

01:47:52.420 | and the same one could be done with you.

01:47:54.500 | And his question was,

01:47:55.900 | are you worried about associating yourself

01:47:58.940 | with folks like that?

01:48:00.300 | - Am I, or are you?

01:48:01.220 | - Me, me.

01:48:02.300 | - Yeah, that's my question.

01:48:03.620 | - And is that something,

01:48:06.160 | do you see yourself as somebody

01:48:09.700 | who's dangerous that I shouldn't be talking to?

01:48:14.260 | And in the same way,

01:48:15.880 | do you ever think about guests on your podcast

01:48:22.620 | or people you talk to publicly,

01:48:24.700 | associate yourself with publicly,

01:48:26.540 | and think that there is somebody that crosses that line

01:48:31.060 | that you shouldn't talk to?

01:48:31.900 | - Yes, so I interviewed, in the new ride,

01:48:35.020 | I interviewed up to full-blown Nazis

01:48:36.880 | in the last chapters of Chris Cantwell,

01:48:38.560 | but that was in the context of that book, right?

01:48:40.800 | So there's lots of people who,

01:48:42.920 | people want me to have on my show,

01:48:44.880 | and the way I look at it is like

01:48:46.840 | you have a table and tablecloth, right?

01:48:48.520 | And let's suppose the table is three feet wide,

01:48:52.120 | the tablecloth is two feet wide.

01:48:54.480 | So if I move the tablecloth to the right,

01:48:56.800 | I'm gonna lose people on the left.

01:48:58.320 | I can only cover so much space.

01:49:00.120 | And the further you go on the fringe in one direction,

01:49:02.740 | the more mainstream you're going to lose

01:49:04.640 | in the other direction.

01:49:05.680 | So I'm very much making a conscious choice

01:49:08.560 | not to talk to, being, people will say I'm cowardly,

01:49:12.620 | and that's absolutely true, I'm being fearful here.

01:49:15.200 | I would prefer not to talk to some of those

01:49:19.180 | who would alienate some of the more mainstream people.

01:49:22.720 | And here's a perfect example of why.

01:49:25.200 | On my birthday last year,

01:49:26.440 | I woke up seven o'clock in the morning to go pee,

01:49:29.080 | and I checked Twitter, it's whatever,

01:49:31.280 | and Jeb Bush had followed me, Jeb.

01:49:34.300 | And I, it's 7 a.m., you're not really awake,

01:49:37.880 | you're like, wait, what?

01:49:38.720 | And then I thought maybe it was a fake account,

01:49:40.080 | but it's in the verified tab.

01:49:41.280 | Oh, you don't have this,

01:49:42.120 | 'cause you're not verified on Twitter, that's a shame.

01:49:44.200 | So people who are mad around Twitter.

01:49:45.600 | - Twitter does not respect robots.

01:49:48.560 | (Lex laughing)

01:49:49.400 | - They ban bots, you're lucky you haven't been banned.

01:49:51.600 | - Zero, one.

01:49:52.920 | - Zero, zero, it's zero, zero, zero.

01:49:55.960 | - Those are my pronouns.

01:49:57.080 | (Lex laughing)

01:50:00.240 | - So it was Jeb, Jeb, Governor Bush,

01:50:03.560 | and I corresponded with him,

01:50:05.580 | and I asked him on the show,

01:50:07.080 | and he decided not to for various reasons.

01:50:09.360 | Very politely, he's like, just politics is so bad right now,

01:50:11.560 | I don't wanna talk about it.

01:50:12.800 | I respect that for him.

01:50:14.640 | If I am in a, if I'm creating my show

01:50:18.960 | where he's going to get heat,

01:50:20.880 | for who, and get canceled,

01:50:24.000 | oh, you can't be on the show, he has these other guests,

01:50:26.240 | I don't wanna lose that opportunity,

01:50:27.640 | because, as we were talking about earlier,

01:50:29.420 | me and Alex Jones and Tim Pool,

01:50:31.240 | I think a lot of people would be very excited

01:50:34.320 | to see me sit down with Jeb Bush.

01:50:36.120 | And I told him in writing, and I meant this,

01:50:38.360 | I wouldn't be clowning him, I wouldn't be disrespectful,

01:50:41.760 | it would be a lot of fun.

01:50:43.160 | There's a goofball side to him that comes out sometimes,

01:50:45.600 | and I would do my best to bring that out,

01:50:47.360 | and talk about what it's like being a blue blood,

01:50:49.240 | to be born into his grandfather,

01:50:50.600 | Prescott Bush was a senator from Connecticut,

01:50:53.360 | marrying a woman who didn't speak English,

01:50:55.840 | how does that work when your family's royalty,

01:50:57.480 | and things like that.

01:50:58.320 | So I had a lot of fun questions for him,

01:51:00.120 | and that's kinda, you're gonna have to choose

01:51:01.400 | one or the other.

01:51:02.440 | - Well, you do a really good job with that,

01:51:04.360 | like Ben Shapiro does a good job with that too,

01:51:06.240 | which is, you can have a trolly side,

01:51:10.840 | a humor side, where you tear down

01:51:12.640 | the power structures and so on,

01:51:14.480 | but you can also have a serious side,

01:51:16.360 | and it's a safe space for people

01:51:18.480 | from all walks of life to walk in,

01:51:20.040 | and you're not adversarial.

01:51:22.640 | - Never, I take the word guests seriously.

01:51:25.920 | If they're gonna be on my show,

01:51:27.640 | I'm not going to have them have negative consequences

01:51:30.840 | as a result of being on my show.

01:51:32.720 | - That said, I mean, maybe in my case,

01:51:36.080 | I'll be honest and say that I find Alex Jones

01:51:41.080 | outside of the conspiracy stuff,

01:51:43.040 | for some reason, maybe you can explain,

01:51:44.920 | maybe you can psychoanalyze me,

01:51:46.280 | but I find him hilarious to listen to.

01:51:49.280 | - He's a performer, he's very performative.

01:51:51.360 | - But there's a lot of people that don't see

01:51:53.280 | the humor of it, and they see the serious consequences

01:51:56.760 | of spreading conspiracy theories of different kinds,

01:52:00.400 | and they see the danger of it.

01:52:04.840 | And I personally, I'm often tempted to talk to Alex

01:52:10.760 | in a podcast format, but I think I'm trying

01:52:15.920 | to convince myself that I never will.

01:52:18.960 | For me, I feel unsafe talking to Alex

01:52:22.040 | because I can't truly be myself, which is like--

01:52:26.640 | - Yeah, you'd have to be on.

01:52:27.560 | - Naive and honest.

01:52:29.520 | And actually, generally, when I talk to humans,

01:52:34.520 | I want to see the best in them.

01:52:36.440 | And I think that's, I often think about

01:52:40.280 | if I talked to Hitler in 1935, 1938--

01:52:44.680 | - You got a list of names to give him?

01:52:46.640 | (laughs)

01:52:47.680 | - Well, yeah, I mean, that's how you get the interview.

01:52:50.640 | Come on, let's be honest.

01:52:51.880 | Who are we kidding?

01:52:56.200 | I would, you have to give away one of your,

01:52:58.560 | I would probably give away my brother, so--

01:53:00.400 | - How many brothers do you have?

01:53:01.600 | - Well, just one.

01:53:02.440 | - Okay.

01:53:03.260 | - Too many.

01:53:04.100 | - What, I wanna be an only child.

01:53:05.880 | - He's the older brother, he used to pick on me, payback.

01:53:09.760 | You know, it's only, he had a good life.

01:53:11.360 | - You should think of it more as Stalin,

01:53:12.640 | I so interrupt you, because Hitler, you're Jewish,

01:53:15.020 | so you're already gonna have very adversarial,

01:53:17.800 | it's not gonna be a normal, he's not gonna perceive you

01:53:19.480 | as a human in a sense, right?

01:53:21.280 | - Right, Stalin, you're right.

01:53:22.920 | - Yeah, that would be much easier,

01:53:24.240 | or Kim Jong-un, or something like that.

01:53:26.480 | - Like, you have to think, like how,

01:53:28.000 | okay, this is a good question, is,

01:53:29.600 | in that spirit, why don't you jot something down?

01:53:33.080 | (laughing)

01:53:35.160 | If you--

01:53:36.000 | - Lutz loves Hitler.

01:53:37.680 | (laughing)

01:53:39.560 | - All right, we'll cross it out in a second.

01:53:41.760 | - Approve.

01:53:43.480 | - I think this is a really good example

01:53:45.760 | of a difficult figure that's controversial

01:53:49.040 | that people bring up to me a lot,

01:53:50.600 | and you've interviewed twice, which is Curtis Yarvin.

01:53:53.920 | - Yeah, Manches Mall Blok.

01:53:54.840 | - Manches Mall, AKA Manches Mall Blok,

01:53:57.040 | which is his pseudonym that he goes by in his blog.

01:54:01.160 | Can you tell me about who he is?

01:54:03.640 | - Sure.

01:54:04.480 | - Why is he interesting, what of his ideas are interesting?

01:54:06.760 | - Well, briefly, he invented the concept of the red pill.

01:54:10.240 | So, Curtis, Manches Mall Blok had a blog

01:54:13.520 | called Unqualified Reservations,

01:54:14.920 | you can still find it online.

01:54:16.880 | It's very verbose, he writes at length, very, very bright.

01:54:22.540 | His perspective is very heretical.

01:54:25.980 | So a lot of things that we take for granted

01:54:28.660 | in our liberal democracy, he regards as not only incorrect,

01:54:32.620 | which is downright absurd, and he does not take

01:54:36.180 | what many people view as the basis of American political

01:54:40.300 | discourse as the basis for his thought.

01:54:43.600 | So, when you're starting with someone

01:54:48.140 | who is basically repudiating kind of the Western worldview,

01:54:52.980 | or not the Western worldview, like the American milieu,

01:54:55.620 | a lot of people are gonna, of course,

01:54:57.900 | regard him as dangerous or someone who is verboten.

01:55:02.420 | He's a very bright person.

01:55:04.880 | - Why is he such a toxic figure?

01:55:08.060 | - Because if you are blue-pilled,

01:55:10.760 | if you are the guardians of what is acceptable discourse,

01:55:17.020 | then you have to make sure your forts are secured,

01:55:20.580 | and that any figure outside of this acceptable discourse

01:55:23.940 | has to be marginalized and regarded

01:55:26.460 | as radioactive as possible.

01:55:28.380 | You don't want to let in these kind of ideas

01:55:32.820 | that would be destructive to your hegemony.

01:55:34.580 | - Well, so, let's dig into it.

01:55:36.540 | So, like, he, I've read a few things by him,

01:55:39.980 | but then I hear that, in a bunch of places,

01:55:43.980 | him being called a racist, a white supremacist,

01:55:47.020 | neo-fascist, so on.

01:55:49.240 | I go to his Wikipedia.

01:55:52.180 | - Yeah.

01:55:53.020 | - There's a view on race section.

01:55:54.700 | Let me read it.

01:55:57.100 | - Okay.

01:55:57.920 | - "Yarvin's opinions have been described as racist,

01:56:00.380 | "with his writings interpreted as supportive of slavery,

01:56:03.480 | "including the belief that whites have higher IQs

01:56:06.180 | "than blacks for genetic reasons.

01:56:08.600 | "Yarvin himself maintains that he's not a racist

01:56:11.720 | "because while he doubts that, quote,

01:56:14.100 | "all races are equally smart, the notion, quote,

01:56:17.680 | "that people who score higher on IQ tests

01:56:19.800 | "are in some sense superior human beings is, quote, creepy.

01:56:23.760 | "He also disputes being an outspoken advocate for slavery,

01:56:27.900 | "though he has argued that some races

01:56:30.340 | "are more suited for slavery than others, quote,

01:56:33.440 | "it should be obvious that,

01:56:34.620 | "although I'm not a white nationalist,

01:56:37.720 | "I am not exactly allergic to the stuff.

01:56:40.400 | "Yarvin wrote in a post that linked approvingly of,"

01:56:44.080 | I don't know these people, "Steve Saylor."

01:56:45.920 | - Steve Saylor, yeah, he's from--

01:56:46.880 | - "Jerry Taylor and other racialists."

01:56:49.600 | - Yeah, so--

01:56:50.660 | - Okay, so one of my questions is--

01:56:53.120 | - Let me just say one sentence.

01:56:56.560 | In the same way that you mentioned that guy earlier

01:56:59.760 | who was defending some aspects of communism,

01:57:02.340 | and that is, in some context, acceptable,

01:57:05.080 | when you think about it, it's like,

01:57:06.320 | this should be radioactive.

01:57:07.800 | - Right.

01:57:08.640 | - The fact that he is engaging with these ideas

01:57:11.120 | in anything other than this has to be reputed at all costs

01:57:15.400 | is what renders him, to a large extent, a racist.

01:57:18.240 | - That's really interesting.

01:57:19.080 | So there are some topics you can be--

01:57:21.800 | - Nuanced.

01:57:22.640 | - Nuanced, and some not.

01:57:24.200 | And communism is still a topic that you can be nuanced about.

01:57:28.360 | - Right.

01:57:29.200 | - It's difficult, but you can be.

01:57:31.160 | Race, and this, like, talking about slavery

01:57:33.720 | and IQ differences based on race

01:57:36.640 | is a topic that, I guess, is radioactive

01:57:40.400 | to a degree where you can't even say anything,

01:57:43.240 | even if it's, like, nuanced,

01:57:46.400 | or not even, like, making a point,

01:57:49.080 | it's like touching it as you make another point.

01:57:52.040 | - And understandably, you can understand that.

01:57:54.480 | I'm gonna steel man their point,

01:57:56.680 | 'cause you can understand the point.

01:57:57.920 | It's like, you're just talking about Hitler.

01:57:59.440 | Once this foot gets in the door

01:58:01.240 | that some people are inherently slaves,

01:58:03.960 | or some people are inherently better than others,

01:58:05.980 | it really quickly, you know, collapses.

01:58:08.360 | So that would be their perspective.

01:58:09.480 | - But that's what, like,

01:58:10.360 | if I were to give criticism of his--

01:58:12.640 | - But let me just say one more thing.

01:58:13.840 | Racist is also used to describe Alex Jones.

01:58:16.800 | Alex doesn't talk about race.

01:58:18.800 | Racist is a shorthand

01:58:20.760 | for a certain percentage of the population

01:58:23.400 | to let you know, do not bother investing

01:58:26.880 | in this person any further.

01:58:28.320 | They are off limits.

01:58:29.560 | - Definitely, racism and sexism is a thing

01:58:31.560 | that's now used to shut down conversation

01:58:33.680 | that's quite absurd by a small percent of the population.

01:58:36.500 | - But Jared Taylor and Steve Saylor,

01:58:38.100 | Jared Taylor interviewed him for my book,

01:58:39.940 | he would be regarded in any sense as a racist.

01:58:43.300 | - What's the difference between racist and racialist?

01:58:45.620 | - So racialists, I mean, this is splitting hairs,

01:58:48.340 | and now I'm gonna be all radioactive.

01:58:50.380 | Jared Taylor runs something called Amren,

01:58:52.500 | and this is, I mean, his perspective

01:58:54.980 | is that there are inherent differences to the races,

01:58:57.260 | and you cannot live side by side well.

01:59:01.060 | Whites and blacks should not be living side by side.

01:59:03.060 | - By the way, for people who don't know,

01:59:04.620 | this is out of context,

01:59:06.620 | you have written a great book

01:59:08.700 | that includes some of these concepts called The New Right,

01:59:11.020 | which not includes these concepts,

01:59:12.540 | but talks about-- - Doesn't, yeah.

01:59:13.660 | - Well, it's more about the growth of the community

01:59:17.340 | around the alt-right and all those kinds of world.

01:59:22.340 | - Right, so, and his point about IQ,

01:59:25.900 | it's like if you had a population, the Dutch, right?

01:59:29.420 | I think they're the tallest people on the Earth.

01:59:31.460 | And if you said, well,

01:59:33.060 | the Dutch are the best people on Earth, why?

01:59:35.060 | 'Cause they're the tallest, it's like you're a crazy person.

01:59:37.980 | So if someone is scoring low,

01:59:39.740 | an individual on an IQ test,

01:59:41.660 | that means they're somehow a lower quality person.

01:59:44.380 | Well, maybe in one very specific aspect,

01:59:46.380 | but I mean, if they're a good human being,

01:59:48.620 | I've got friends who are low IQ,

01:59:49.820 | all my friends are low IQ, frankly, compared to me.

01:59:51.980 | Sounded like Trump there for a second.

01:59:52.820 | - That's how you choose friends.

01:59:53.900 | (both laughing)

01:59:55.100 | - Well, I don't have any other choices.

01:59:56.180 | No one's gonna be at my level.

01:59:57.500 | - You're the smartest person since Abraham Lincoln

02:00:00.380 | that I've ever seen.

02:00:02.100 | - Unlike him, I actually am honest.

02:00:03.940 | So he is someone who very much swims in heretical ideas.

02:00:08.940 | Here's another thing.

02:00:12.620 | Like if you bring up that Aristotle said

02:00:15.220 | that some people are born to be slaves,

02:00:17.060 | he wasn't speaking about race,

02:00:18.140 | he just meant people's souls.

02:00:20.100 | H.L. Mencken, who's a great heretic

02:00:22.460 | and early to 20th century figure,

02:00:26.500 | one of his quotes that I say all the time,

02:00:28.340 | which people have seen a lot in this past year,

02:00:30.500 | that the average man does not want to be free,

02:00:32.300 | he merely wants to be safe.

02:00:34.180 | That I think is, I don't know,

02:00:36.260 | I am not familiar with what Moldau saying about slavery

02:00:40.380 | 'cause his writing is ponderous,

02:00:42.060 | but that certainly is something I think that is undeniable,

02:00:45.000 | that I think more people are realizing

02:00:46.300 | there's a large percent of the population

02:00:48.160 | that is actively disinterested in freedom

02:00:50.420 | and the moral responsibilities it entails.

02:00:52.780 | - Well, I mean, really just the word slavery,

02:00:55.820 | if you wanna make some kind of point

02:00:57.700 | or even think about the topic outside the context

02:01:02.100 | of this is a horrible thing that happened

02:01:03.820 | in the United States history.

02:01:05.220 | - And other countries' histories,

02:01:06.220 | it's not unique to us, let's be clear.

02:01:07.500 | - This is, I mean, very important

02:01:08.980 | and there's slavery going on today

02:01:10.300 | and a lot of people argue that sex trafficking

02:01:13.900 | and all those kinds of things,

02:01:14.740 | I mean, there's atrocities going on today

02:01:17.300 | that talking about it in a way

02:01:22.300 | that's not immediately saying

02:01:24.500 | this is the most horrible thing that happened ever.

02:01:27.260 | It's something I think about a lot

02:01:31.580 | is like if I wanna say something controversial,

02:01:34.060 | I should do so with skill, with care

02:01:38.860 | and only about things I care about.

02:01:40.780 | - Well, here's where I would disagree.

02:01:43.260 | When I say things, I often say things that are controversial

02:01:46.300 | or I will say uncontroversial things

02:01:48.660 | in a controversial way

02:01:50.340 | because it's a useful mechanism to alienate people

02:01:53.380 | you don't want around you

02:01:55.020 | because if there are people who are going to be shocked

02:01:58.520 | by certain topics, like we should have ended World War II,

02:02:01.840 | like even as a hypothesis, they just clutch their pearls,

02:02:04.060 | they're like, oh, you want the Holocaust to happen,

02:02:06.340 | I can't discuss most things with you

02:02:08.520 | because you're not interested in having a conversation,

02:02:10.740 | you're interested in your emotional response.

02:02:12.100 | - Yeah, I think I see things differently.

02:02:13.460 | Maybe this is a bit of a devil's advocate,

02:02:15.420 | but what in at least the modern discourse

02:02:18.260 | of like Twitter and social media and so on,

02:02:20.860 | I find that if you do that,

02:02:22.820 | you're not actually removing the people

02:02:26.700 | that are not thoughtful and kind and so on,

02:02:29.460 | you're actually attracting loud people.

02:02:31.860 | Like a small number of them,

02:02:33.220 | they come over and start yelling at you,

02:02:35.380 | start yelling, they're basically ruin the party

02:02:39.260 | by showing up and just screaming

02:02:42.260 | and so all the thoughtful people leave.

02:02:43.940 | - Well, that's why you have to be a very heavy blocker.

02:02:46.980 | You have to block people on Twitter

02:02:48.180 | 'cause you have to cultivate your audience

02:02:50.000 | and have them, like a lot of times people come at me,

02:02:51.920 | I don't care, then they'll start attacking

02:02:54.140 | members of my audience and then I'm like,

02:02:55.420 | dang, I gotta block them because they've won this one

02:02:57.700 | 'cause I can't have that.

02:02:58.960 | - Yeah, I don't know.

02:03:02.980 | Unnecessarily provoking people feels...

02:03:07.700 | - This is beta testing.

02:03:12.640 | You try to break the system and see what works.

02:03:14.540 | You put up as much pressure as possible.

02:03:17.340 | This is very much computer stuff

02:03:19.220 | that you should be able to appreciate.

02:03:21.060 | - The point being when you have a program,

02:03:22.600 | you're trying to intentionally sit there

02:03:24.160 | and do as many mistakes to see what go wrong, right?

02:03:26.800 | Is that not common practice?

02:03:28.800 | - Yeah, exactly.

02:03:29.640 | So you're saying that's a way to see

02:03:33.480 | communication with the world

02:03:34.760 | is you say something uncontroversial

02:03:37.480 | in a controversial way and that blocks people.

02:03:40.920 | - Or does it trigger them?

02:03:42.000 | Do they roll their eyes?

02:03:43.160 | What is gonna be their emotional response?

02:03:45.580 | Are they gonna start yelling?

02:03:46.840 | - The problem is the reason I can't think like this

02:03:50.440 | or I can't because I'm not sure

02:03:52.720 | about the points I'm trying to make always.

02:03:56.600 | I'm not always 100% sure that I'm right about things.

02:03:59.160 | So in being thoughtful, I'm afraid that I'll turn off

02:04:04.160 | with an ineloquently phrased or even incorrect statement,

02:04:10.560 | I will do damage that can't be undone

02:04:13.120 | in terms of having a good conversation about a topic.

02:04:17.320 | So I wanna be very careful about,

02:04:21.040 | I'm not saying afraid, fear is not what I'm talking about.

02:04:24.640 | I think fear is like not saying something out of fears

02:04:29.640 | at the core of many of the problems of the world today.

02:04:33.120 | But I'm just saying say stuff with care.

02:04:36.360 | If I'm going to touch race as a topic,

02:04:39.200 | it feels like you really should be deeply,

02:04:43.120 | first have a point to make.

02:04:45.240 | Like you really care about a point you wanna make.

02:04:47.840 | And second, think deeply about how to say that point

02:04:51.320 | in a way that communicates it the best.

02:04:54.000 | And touching, I would say, listen,

02:04:59.000 | I've, on your show, which is great,

02:05:03.360 | I'd like to say thank you for having Mencious Molebug.

02:05:07.320 | - You are welcome.

02:05:08.360 | - That's the name of the show.

02:05:13.800 | - Thank you for having me a couple of times.

02:05:15.640 | It's great to sort of get him to, in this loose way,

02:05:18.800 | to talk about different kinds of stuff.

02:05:20.720 | - I don't think we talked about race at all.

02:05:22.040 | - No, no, no, no.

02:05:22.880 | - No, but I'm just bringing it back to what you were asking,

02:05:25.280 | which is if you read the Wikipedia,

02:05:27.440 | the perspective is gonna be

02:05:28.600 | this guy talks about slavery constantly,

02:05:31.000 | where it's completely disproportionate to his work.

02:05:33.360 | - But even on your show, you can tell,

02:05:35.040 | even outside of the race stuff,

02:05:36.600 | that he's not ultra careful about, he's not--

02:05:42.640 | - Nuanced.

02:05:43.800 | - Yeah, he's not afraid to say something just like,

02:05:46.840 | I would say, let me just criticize him,

02:05:48.920 | my face is not you, this is me,

02:05:50.760 | carelessly say something controversial.

02:05:53.260 | - Right.

02:05:54.100 | - I'm not saying, he doesn't go,

02:05:57.320 | that makes him, it's a very different thing

02:05:59.360 | than somebody who on purpose says

02:06:03.080 | something controversial stuff, like Milo Anopoulos,

02:06:07.440 | sorry, I forgot Milo, whatever his name is.

02:06:09.600 | - Anopoulos, yeah.

02:06:10.440 | - Yeah, which is really nice to see

02:06:12.080 | that he's a genuine person who's thoughtful,

02:06:13.800 | he doesn't mean to, but he just carelessly

02:06:17.560 | seems to say things that I feel like

02:06:21.600 | damage the rest of his body of work.

02:06:24.360 | - I can't really speak for him,

02:06:25.640 | but I would guess his point is,

02:06:27.840 | once you're swimming in this kind of worldview,

02:06:31.200 | you're going to be anathema already,

02:06:34.480 | so there's no pleasing these people,

02:06:35.960 | so why bother trying?

02:06:37.040 | - Yeah, I think that's a deeply,

02:06:38.600 | that's a black pill way of seeing the world.

02:06:41.080 | - It's not a black pill at all.

02:06:42.200 | - Because it's a cynical way, like these people,

02:06:44.840 | so it's saying that you're,

02:06:49.320 | it's a very kind of way of thinking,

02:06:51.360 | like I'll say whatever I want,

02:06:53.000 | whoever comes along with me.

02:06:54.360 | - No, you just earlier said yourself

02:06:55.960 | that racism has been weaponized

02:06:58.600 | as a way to shut down conversation,

02:07:00.680 | so I think his perspective would be,

02:07:03.040 | I am so outside the mainstream in my worldview

02:07:06.580 | that I know I'm going to be called racist,

02:07:09.800 | so there's no point in trying to be nuanced

02:07:12.480 | because I'm already going to get the scarlet letter.

02:07:14.560 | - Yeah, I just disagree with that

02:07:15.960 | because, for example, I am one person

02:07:19.680 | that he turned off by his carelessness,

02:07:22.560 | and I think I should be a good target,

02:07:25.160 | I should be somebody-- - I think that's fair.

02:07:26.800 | - And I'm just, like, it's very convenient

02:07:31.280 | to think that there's ridiculous people out there,

02:07:33.320 | which there are, who call everybody racist

02:07:35.640 | and sexist currently, and then you can't please them,

02:07:39.040 | so I'm not even gonna try.

02:07:41.160 | No, but there's this gray area of people

02:07:44.040 | that I don't listen to the outrage culture, whatever.

02:07:47.080 | This Wikipedia article means nothing to me.

02:07:49.360 | Like, I'm not going to-- - Right, I got you.

02:07:52.280 | - What I'm more, I'm just seeing this careless person,

02:07:55.280 | and if he's going to be careless about race like this,

02:08:00.280 | I feel like if I walk along with him long enough,

02:08:03.840 | I'm going to catch the carelessness.

02:08:06.880 | I'm going to lose, like--

02:08:09.520 | - I'll defend your perspective better than you can.

02:08:11.600 | - Yeah, this is good.

02:08:13.600 | I'm taking notes.

02:08:14.680 | - I talked to Eric Weinstein

02:08:15.800 | after you guys talked about me on your show.

02:08:17.600 | - Reynolds Weinstein.

02:08:18.600 | - We had a good conversation.

02:08:19.880 | He invited me on his show.

02:08:21.000 | - That would be an amazing conversation.

02:08:22.440 | - And we got on the phone, and his concern, fairly,

02:08:26.360 | he goes, "I don't want you to come on my show

02:08:28.360 | "for the purposes of clowning me,"

02:08:30.640 | and I would never do that.

02:08:32.960 | - He might not be aware of who you, of--

02:08:36.480 | - That's why he wanted to feel me out.

02:08:37.680 | He's like, when he hears troll,

02:08:39.160 | it can mean a lot of different things,

02:08:40.400 | and we had a very good conversation.

02:08:42.120 | It very much was very clear

02:08:43.600 | that's not where the conversation would go,

02:08:45.600 | but I think when you are going to be on someone's show,

02:08:48.840 | there is a responsibility

02:08:51.080 | that they're not going to have to pay a cost

02:08:53.560 | for having you as their guest,

02:08:54.840 | so if you were put off by how he was

02:08:58.080 | in that live stream or two I did,

02:09:00.080 | I understand where you're coming from.

02:09:01.720 | I think he's very, very bright,

02:09:03.360 | but you have a different audience than I do

02:09:06.080 | and you're going for something different than I am.

02:09:07.800 | - No, no, no, in my sense of--

02:09:11.760 | - You wouldn't feel safe with him.

02:09:12.800 | - Yeah, I wouldn't feel safe with him,

02:09:14.040 | but he's borderline for me.

02:09:15.520 | I would like to actually talk to him one day.

02:09:19.200 | Alex Jones has crossed the other line for me.

02:09:22.120 | - Well, you could do what you could do with me,

02:09:24.000 | tape the episode and then never release it.

02:09:26.160 | - No, it's one of those things where it'll be,

02:09:31.160 | when there's finally,

02:09:32.500 | they'll make a History Channel documentary

02:09:36.000 | about you and I and how it all went wrong,

02:09:38.280 | like the cult that we started

02:09:39.880 | and everybody killed themselves.

02:09:42.040 | And we'll release it then

02:09:46.800 | because it'll be like unseen footage.

02:09:49.280 | This is how it started.

02:09:51.440 | It'll be black and white

02:09:52.800 | in a basement somewhere in New York.

02:09:56.360 | - Yeah, my mother's basement.

02:09:58.240 | - This explains so much.

02:10:01.440 | Okay, so I spoke to Yaron Brook

02:10:05.720 | about objectivism and Ayn Rand,

02:10:09.900 | he kind of argued,

02:10:12.880 | he highlighted the difference between capitalism

02:10:14.960 | and anarchism as around the topic of violence

02:10:19.720 | and that having government

02:10:24.720 | be the sort of,

02:10:28.000 | the negative way to say it is like

02:10:31.200 | having a monopoly on violence,

02:10:33.360 | but basically being the arbiter of,

02:10:36.000 | or the people that making sure

02:10:39.280 | that violence doesn't get out of hand,

02:10:41.840 | that would--

02:10:42.680 | - Yeah, 2020 showed that, yep.

02:10:44.440 | Government's great at that, yep.

02:10:46.080 | - Well, what's, okay, without--

02:10:49.760 | - This is the same with the straight face,

02:10:51.000 | making that argument.

02:10:51.840 | Good work, Yaron.

02:10:52.680 | - All right, well, can you with a straight face argue

02:10:56.280 | for the idea that in anarchism,

02:11:02.080 | violence would not get out of hand?

02:11:04.440 | - Sure, for one thing,

02:11:06.320 | if your worst argument against,

02:11:08.560 | one of my little quotes is,

02:11:10.040 | "What are presented as the strongest arguments

02:11:12.000 | "against anarchism are inevitably descriptions

02:11:14.040 | "of the status quo."

02:11:15.280 | So the argument is under anarchism,

02:11:17.800 | you'd have warlords killing people

02:11:21.080 | and then you'd have whoever's strongest

02:11:24.040 | gets to just take over a neighborhood.

02:11:25.680 | Well, we have that now.

02:11:27.360 | We saw that the police are perfectly comfortable

02:11:31.160 | disarming the population

02:11:33.200 | and then when they try to protect themselves are punished,

02:11:36.400 | we're happy to stand down.

02:11:38.000 | You can only have that happen if you have a monopoly.

02:11:42.160 | If they're, like, let's suppose you had

02:11:44.040 | television stations, right?

02:11:45.640 | And CBS said, "You know what?

02:11:47.640 | "We're not gonna broadcast."

02:11:49.240 | Cool, you don't broadcast,

02:11:51.400 | we're gonna watch any of these other channels.

02:11:53.080 | So the problem with having a monopoly

02:11:55.080 | is everyone has to be dependent on this issue.

02:11:57.680 | What's amazing about minarchism, which objectivists are,

02:12:00.360 | is they will argue that government is really, really bad

02:12:04.680 | at everything it does and it touches.

02:12:06.920 | Therefore, it has to be in charge

02:12:09.720 | of the most important stuff.

02:12:11.000 | - Well, that's not therefore, but,

02:12:13.040 | but there is a thing that's fundamentally different

02:12:16.640 | than all the other things that--

02:12:17.480 | - But Yaron Brook also said that no government has,

02:12:22.080 | this is on your show,

02:12:23.480 | has ever worked in the way he's proposing.

02:12:26.120 | Now, objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy,

02:12:29.240 | is based on objective reality.

02:12:31.480 | And what she posited is,

02:12:33.600 | you look and study the facts of nature,

02:12:35.720 | study the facts of reality,

02:12:36.880 | and deduce things accordingly.

02:12:38.840 | And she very much regards herself

02:12:41.080 | as part of the Aristotelian tradition,

02:12:43.520 | as opposed to the Platonist tradition,

02:12:45.760 | where the idea precedes reality,

02:12:47.840 | and the idea is more real than what we see around us.

02:12:50.640 | So what he's saying is, all the data, according to him,

02:12:55.520 | contradicts his argument,

02:12:58.200 | but still, he's going to make this imaginary government

02:13:01.200 | that has never existed,

02:13:02.680 | and there's no evidence that it can exist.

02:13:06.200 | Let's talk about objective law.

02:13:09.000 | To have access to the legal system,

02:13:11.120 | which is something we want,

02:13:13.000 | even just in terms of selling disputes,

02:13:14.880 | when you have a government monopoly,

02:13:16.720 | it's going to be more expensive,

02:13:18.960 | more difficult for poor people.

02:13:20.640 | The cost of hiring a lawyer is more expensive

02:13:22.800 | than hiring a surgeon.

02:13:24.100 | You can't say with a straight face,

02:13:25.800 | this is the only way or the best way.

02:13:28.060 | Okay, so, and the other thing is,

02:13:31.680 | the argument for objectivism,

02:13:32.960 | they have this, against anarchism,

02:13:35.760 | they have this stupid claim, it's like,

02:13:37.720 | what if, you know, you're a member of one security company,

02:13:41.880 | and I'm a member of another,

02:13:43.360 | and we have a dispute, and one shows up the door,

02:13:45.520 | what happens now?

02:13:47.040 | As if this is some insuperable argument.

02:13:49.160 | Well, we have that on Earth.

02:13:51.120 | Every country is in a state of anarchism

02:13:53.000 | regarding every other country.

02:13:54.200 | We don't have a world government.

02:13:55.520 | So what happens if a Canadian kills an American in Mexico?

02:14:00.520 | I have no idea.

02:14:01.500 | I bet you don't have an idea.

02:14:02.960 | What I'm sure of is that system has been worked out

02:14:06.680 | ahead of time between the three countries,

02:14:08.940 | and it's been worked out in such a way

02:14:11.200 | that you and I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

02:14:13.300 | Same thing with cell phone companies.

02:14:15.160 | If I'm on Sprint, you're on Metro PCS,

02:14:17.480 | and I call you, who pays?

02:14:19.360 | Does Sprint pay you?

02:14:20.840 | Do they split the difference?

02:14:22.300 | First of all, there's no objective way

02:14:23.500 | that one has to work, but the thing is,

02:14:25.800 | companies who have auto accidents,

02:14:29.580 | they have arbitrage all the time.

02:14:30.780 | Like if I run into you, they work it out,

02:14:33.220 | and it never reaches our desk.

02:14:36.280 | So the only thing that cops are good at

02:14:39.600 | is keeping people, at any government monopoly,

02:14:42.000 | is forcing people to be their customers

02:14:43.760 | by keeping them unsafe.

02:14:45.400 | - Okay, there's a few things I'd like to say there

02:14:49.180 | that just explore some of these ideas.

02:14:51.520 | So one, in terms of Canadian and Mexico and so on,

02:14:55.120 | that it does, something has been worked out, perhaps.

02:14:58.800 | - Not perhaps, don't say perhaps.

02:15:00.400 | You know for sure that if you--

02:15:02.920 | - There's a point I'm trying to make.

02:15:03.960 | So let's say for sure it's been worked out.

02:15:06.460 | There was a point in history where it wasn't worked out.

02:15:10.200 | To work, to come to a place of stability,

02:15:15.000 | there has to first be some instability.

02:15:16.960 | So when you first, like for every kind of situation,

02:15:21.260 | it's like dispute over space.

02:15:23.900 | Like who gets to own Mars, that kind of thing.

02:15:26.420 | There's a first for it, and then these different

02:15:29.540 | competing institutions will have to figure it out.

02:15:33.580 | And so there's the concern with anarchism, I think,

02:15:36.420 | or with any kind of interaction.

02:15:38.580 | You said brilliantly that there's an anarchism

02:15:41.820 | relative to the, there's no one world government.

02:15:44.300 | - Right.

02:15:45.140 | - Alex Jones enters the chat, but.

02:15:47.700 | (laughing)

02:15:49.820 | - The, there's, the fear is that there's going to be

02:15:54.220 | an instability that doesn't converge

02:15:57.260 | towards some stable place.

02:15:58.700 | - That is not the fear, that is the goal

02:16:00.940 | under Ayn Rand's philosophy.

02:16:03.060 | Markets have something that they always talk about

02:16:06.100 | as being creatively destructive.

02:16:07.980 | Which means you look at something that's been happening

02:16:10.580 | for a very long time, every generation, every innovator

02:16:14.580 | starts chipping away at it, he finds better ways,

02:16:17.440 | marginal improvement, or it doesn't work,

02:16:19.740 | and he goes broke.

02:16:20.900 | When government tries to implement improvement,

02:16:23.580 | we all have to suffer the consequences.

02:16:25.500 | When an innovator does, it's a huge asymmetry.

02:16:28.100 | If it hurts, it only hurts him.

02:16:30.000 | If it succeeds, he becomes rich,

02:16:32.120 | and we all profit as a consequence.

02:16:34.420 | - But the fear of anarchism, I think,

02:16:35.900 | is that it will be non-creative destruction,

02:16:39.740 | it'll be just destruction.

02:16:41.060 | Right, it's not like the instability.

02:16:45.500 | - Let's give you, there's no, stability is one

02:16:48.220 | of these words that sounds objective

02:16:50.020 | but has no real meaning.

02:16:51.500 | What field has stability?

02:16:54.460 | If you had, let's suppose you want stability--

02:16:56.300 | - Relationships.

02:16:57.620 | - Let's talk about medicine.

02:16:58.860 | Stability means we're not gonna invent new diseases

02:17:01.100 | or new treatments, right?

02:17:02.620 | If you mean stability in terms of a baseline of security,

02:17:06.780 | we have that already.

02:17:08.260 | Very few relationships turn violent.

02:17:11.360 | Under an anarchist system, look at it right now,

02:17:14.860 | if you look at a bar full of drunken young males

02:17:18.780 | full of testosterone, if you look at a hotel

02:17:22.360 | where everyone is not native to the area,

02:17:25.540 | those are both far safer than the places

02:17:29.140 | that the government has taken upon itself to protect you.

02:17:32.320 | The parks, the alleyways, the streets, the subways.

02:17:36.320 | We have right now a comparison of which is better

02:17:39.620 | at keeping people safe, and it's very obvious

02:17:42.840 | that when something is private and under someone's control,

02:17:46.240 | and there would be layers of, there'd be more police,

02:17:48.280 | but they wouldn't be a government monopoly.

02:17:50.400 | The store would have someone, the street would have someone,

02:17:53.120 | and you'd have your own personal security

02:17:54.700 | that would be attached to your phone.

02:17:56.240 | Having security as a function of geography

02:17:59.720 | as opposed to a function of you as an individual

02:18:02.460 | is a landline technology in a post-cellphone world.

02:18:05.640 | - So you think it's possible to have,

02:18:07.720 | psychologically speaking, as an individual

02:18:10.520 | among the masses, to have a sense of security

02:18:13.360 | even though there's not a centralized thing

02:18:16.960 | at the bottom of the whole thing.

02:18:18.120 | So there's not a set of laws

02:18:21.920 | that are enforced based on geography,

02:18:23.840 | like we have nations now.

02:18:24.880 | You can have a set of laws that are enforced

02:18:27.000 | in some kind of emergent, agreed-upon way.

02:18:30.180 | So basically, I wanna go to a hotel

02:18:32.760 | and trust that I'll be able to get a room,

02:18:35.160 | and nobody's gonna break down the door,

02:18:36.920 | and I don't know, take all my vodka.

02:18:40.480 | - Let's take it a different way.

02:18:42.440 | If you were worried about a hotel having bedbugs,

02:18:45.380 | that's not something that government's involved in,

02:18:47.320 | what mechanism, and that's not an unrealistic concern,

02:18:50.620 | are there mechanisms right now that you can undertake

02:18:53.240 | to make sure that's not the case?

02:18:54.680 | - Yes.

02:18:55.520 | - So it would be the same thing with,

02:18:57.080 | I want to make sure I go to a hotel that has security.

02:19:01.480 | It would be exactly the same thing.

02:19:03.080 | And here's another example, kosher food.

02:19:05.320 | People who keep kosher, Jews who keep kosher,

02:19:08.300 | their food has to be prepared in a certain way.

02:19:10.320 | It has to meet higher rabbinical standards, right?

02:19:12.960 | If you look at food, it will have that certification,

02:19:16.360 | the K, and there's even competition there.

02:19:18.400 | There's the K, and there's the stricter U letter.

02:19:20.560 | People don't notice it 'cause they're not looking for it.

02:19:22.480 | You would have companies certifying different locales

02:19:26.880 | for their level of security,

02:19:28.240 | and it would take an hour to have an app

02:19:32.600 | just like when you have toll roads, right?

02:19:34.360 | That would tell you you're approaching an unsafe area,

02:19:37.280 | you're not gonna be covered by us,

02:19:38.800 | and you could have it color-coded very easily.

02:19:41.880 | We could do this today.

02:19:43.800 | - But the thing is, you're exactly correct,

02:19:46.100 | but there's an assumption of you're already in a,

02:19:49.520 | okay, you can give me a different word than stability,

02:19:51.400 | but you're already in a place where the forces

02:19:54.840 | of the market or whatever can operate.

02:19:57.840 | The worry is like, initially,

02:20:00.900 | you might not have enough stability

02:20:04.620 | to where you can choose one place over the other

02:20:07.800 | based on the security that they provide.

02:20:10.120 | - We already have different types of security here

02:20:12.800 | because we have federal government,

02:20:14.320 | we have state governments, and we have local governments,

02:20:17.840 | and these often contradict each other.

02:20:20.460 | So the idea of the implausibility

02:20:22.400 | of having different security companies

02:20:24.920 | and having it be unstable or impossible,

02:20:27.480 | we already have a very rough example

02:20:30.400 | of it happening in real life.

02:20:31.640 | - But all of it started,

02:20:35.000 | the idea of, especially with Yaron,

02:20:38.160 | is it all started with government monopoly of violence

02:20:42.640 | saying, "No, kids, don't let violence get out of hand."

02:20:47.120 | So how do-- - We had a civil war

02:20:49.280 | where half the country was slaughtered.

02:20:51.600 | - That's a display of the government

02:20:53.840 | not having a monopoly on the violence, right?

02:20:56.640 | It's like, that's the split.

02:20:58.240 | - It had such a monopoly on the violence in the North

02:21:00.440 | that it could draft people to fight others

02:21:03.040 | that they didn't even care about.

02:21:03.880 | - There's a South, so it's the government splitting.

02:21:08.880 | It's like a giant iceberg splitting.

02:21:13.080 | The argument is that you would have something

02:21:16.720 | like a civil war much more often under anarchism.

02:21:19.740 | - First of all, if you had a civil war much more often,

02:21:25.040 | we don't have that with car companies, right?

02:21:27.600 | There's no car company that says,

02:21:28.880 | "I refuse to pay you," or whatever.

02:21:32.060 | - That's not violence, sorry to interrupt.

02:21:34.580 | And I'm playing-- - Hold on, let me finish.

02:21:36.460 | It is violence because if I'm a company

02:21:38.960 | and I'm saying that my cars can run over yours

02:21:42.880 | with no consequences, this is a rough analog,

02:21:45.600 | why has that not happened?

02:21:48.080 | Now, in terms of having security system,

02:21:50.980 | if I am free, just like switching cell phone

02:21:53.940 | to go from one provider to another,

02:21:56.100 | and this one company as part of its payment

02:21:58.140 | doesn't want $50 a month, $100 a month,

02:22:00.700 | wants my son, I'm not going to be a member

02:22:03.820 | of this security company unless, in that case,

02:22:07.100 | we're dealing with something like a Pearl Harbor

02:22:08.800 | or foreign invasion where it's all hands on deck.

02:22:12.020 | - Let's go by evidence.

02:22:13.660 | How many places do we have evidence of

02:22:15.780 | that you can have at a large scale?

02:22:18.040 | - Why is that at a large scale?

02:22:20.940 | - Because it feels like once you don't know the person.

02:22:24.260 | - What about eBay?

02:22:25.480 | eBay is an example of anarchist in practice.

02:22:27.580 | I am selling something to someone whose name

02:22:29.480 | I don't even know in a country that is

02:22:31.200 | nowhere approximate to me, and eBay acts as the arbiter.

02:22:34.460 | Sometimes I don't get the money after I get screwed over,

02:22:36.780 | but that's far less than the taxation

02:22:38.800 | that I have to give to the federal government.

02:22:40.520 | - It's a great point, but it's in the space of finance.

02:22:43.580 | If I could, if on eBay, you could also commit violence.

02:22:48.580 | - Theft is violence.

02:22:50.620 | - No.

02:22:51.860 | - Yeah, if you give me 10 grand for a car

02:22:54.940 | and I don't deliver anything,

02:22:56.100 | you've stolen 10 grand from me.

02:22:57.420 | - Yes, but there's something uniquely problematic

02:23:02.420 | to being stabbed or shot.

02:23:06.200 | - The reason you're stabbed or shot is because

02:23:08.600 | the government, despite its contract,

02:23:10.960 | is refusing to allow Second Amendment rights

02:23:13.960 | to be implemented among the citizenry,

02:23:16.120 | and the people who are making that the case are the cops.

02:23:20.040 | They are the ones who are the traitors to the Constitution

02:23:22.480 | and should be regarded as such,

02:23:24.240 | whereas private companies are far more amenable

02:23:27.700 | to market pressures than the state is.

02:23:29.860 | - It's a strong argument,

02:23:32.140 | but let's actually just briefly mention the scale thing.

02:23:37.140 | Why don't you think we should talk about scale?

02:23:40.500 | - Because if you had anarchism just in Vermont

02:23:42.780 | or just in Brooklyn, fine.

02:23:45.460 | The people make the argument you need anarchism

02:23:47.060 | or else China's gonna invade,

02:23:48.660 | but that's like saying, what,

02:23:50.580 | do these little countries don't exist?

02:23:52.060 | Does San Salvador not exist?

02:23:53.460 | Some of them are violent, some of them are not,

02:23:55.140 | but the point is they're not all,

02:23:57.380 | at a moment's notice, about to be invaded.

02:23:59.380 | Kuwait's an example of this.

02:24:00.820 | Kuwait was invaded by Iraq,

02:24:02.500 | and very quickly all the big countries

02:24:04.660 | who were interested in having your stability, safe space,

02:24:08.620 | got involved and kicked them out of Kuwait.

02:24:11.180 | If you had this company

02:24:13.740 | that was waging war on the population,

02:24:15.700 | it seems quite likely that the other organization

02:24:18.180 | would get together and put a stop to this

02:24:19.860 | because they're not in a position

02:24:21.020 | to provide this service of security to their customers.

02:24:23.580 | - Okay, all this is brilliant,

02:24:25.300 | but didn't you just say that we are actually

02:24:28.700 | in a state of anarchism relative to other countries?

02:24:32.260 | - Yes.

02:24:33.100 | - So isn't this what emerges?

02:24:35.260 | This is what, aren't we actually living

02:24:38.080 | in a state of anarchism where we all have agreed?

02:24:41.900 | - I haven't agreed to anything.

02:24:43.020 | - So the basic criticism you have is

02:24:45.740 | you're born on a geographical land,

02:24:49.500 | a geographical area, and you're forced

02:24:52.700 | to have signed a bunch of stuff just by being born

02:24:55.940 | in a particular place.

02:24:57.380 | So really, if you could just much easier choose

02:25:02.380 | which space of ideas you are associated with,

02:25:08.620 | that would be actually a state of anarchism.

02:25:10.740 | - Yes.

02:25:11.580 | - And you could have a military that you sign up with.

02:25:16.620 | - Sure.

02:25:18.260 | - And you're certainly not putting people in prison

02:25:20.180 | to get raped because they're selling drugs.

02:25:22.780 | - Yeah.

02:25:23.620 | - And you're certainly not allowing everyone else

02:25:27.940 | on the street who wants to be there.

02:25:30.300 | - Can we say something nice about Ayn Rand?

02:25:32.620 | - I can talk about nice things about her all day.

02:25:34.740 | I own her copy of The Fountainhead, you know.

02:25:36.420 | - What to you is Ayn Rand's best idea,

02:25:40.380 | one that you find impactful, insightful, useful

02:25:43.820 | for us in modern society that you think about?

02:25:46.700 | - That your life has meaning and productive work

02:25:51.700 | is your highest value, and that you shouldn't apologize,

02:25:56.860 | and this is something I despise,

02:25:58.860 | you shouldn't apologize for saying,

02:26:00.940 | I want to be happy and I'm going to work toward that.

02:26:05.640 | And that, as a few others, that you owe nobody else,

02:26:08.980 | some random stranger, a second of your time.

02:26:12.540 | You see this a lot on Twitter and social media,

02:26:14.940 | people demanding a debate, or demanding you act

02:26:17.660 | a certain way, and engage with them.

02:26:19.740 | You don't owe them anything.

02:26:21.940 | So I think those are some of her best ideas.

02:26:26.140 | And she teaches you how to think.

02:26:27.260 | Ayn Rand does not have all the answers,

02:26:28.500 | but she has all the questions.

02:26:29.820 | - Do you think, what do you think

02:26:31.020 | about the whole selfishness thing?

02:26:32.300 | I mean, are you triggered by the word selfishness?

02:26:37.300 | - It's really unfortunate what she does,

02:26:39.180 | because you were just talking earlier

02:26:40.540 | about mold bug being carelessly.

02:26:43.140 | She, this is indefensible in my opinion.

02:26:47.380 | So she talks about the virtue of selfishness,

02:26:50.500 | and she claims that when people talk about selfishness,

02:26:54.420 | they mean concern primarily with the self.

02:26:57.420 | They don't.

02:26:58.260 | When people talk about selfishness,

02:26:59.500 | they mean in a sociopathic way,

02:27:01.340 | concern exclusively with oneself, right?

02:27:03.620 | They mean like, oh, if someone is dying on the street,

02:27:06.940 | I'm not gonna even waste a second saving them,

02:27:10.180 | because I'm selfish.

02:27:11.380 | So she sets up this complete caricature of the term.

02:27:14.460 | When she's attacking selflessness in her best sense

02:27:19.220 | is when there are people who have no sense of self.

02:27:22.660 | They have no values of their own.

02:27:25.180 | They have no goals of their own.

02:27:26.940 | Everything that's in their mind is gotten secondhand

02:27:29.460 | from the culture at large,

02:27:30.860 | and there's nothing unique or special

02:27:33.700 | from their perspective worth fighting for.

02:27:36.460 | So when she attacks, when she advocates for the self,

02:27:40.940 | she basically means self-development,

02:27:42.940 | self-improvement, and achievement.

02:27:44.860 | So I think that word choice is really false

02:27:48.860 | and needlessly off-putting.

02:27:52.260 | - Yeah.

02:27:53.580 | Controversial, perhaps for the purpose

02:27:55.260 | of being controversial, I don't know.

02:27:56.780 | - But it's just, it's not accurate.

02:27:59.220 | That's not what people mean by selfishness.

02:28:01.660 | - Yeah, I would say it's one of the reasons

02:28:04.580 | probably her philosophy is not as much adopted

02:28:09.340 | or thought about is like, it's funny,

02:28:11.500 | like the use of words means something.

02:28:13.420 | Exactly as you said, that's my criticism,

02:28:15.660 | that's just my bug, which could be incorrect criticism,

02:28:18.180 | by the way, so I'm not exactly sure.

02:28:20.280 | Can we talk about some modern day chaos and politics?

02:28:26.420 | - Yes, please, I hate chaos.

02:28:29.840 | - Speaking of your hatred for chaos,

02:28:32.500 | let's talk about secession.

02:28:34.060 | - Oh yeah, I was the first one on this trip.

02:28:36.340 | - Yeah, you were, well, the Civil War beat you to it,

02:28:39.260 | but-- - Sure,

02:28:40.540 | in contemporary times.

02:28:41.660 | - In contemporary times, you were on this.

02:28:45.380 | Can you talk about what is the idea of secession?

02:28:49.440 | What are the odds that it might happen?

02:28:52.580 | What does it mean for the United States

02:28:56.100 | in some way for different states to secede?

02:28:58.460 | - Sure, America's been one country

02:29:00.060 | with several cultures since the beginning.

02:29:02.620 | There's absolutely no reason for someone,

02:29:05.380 | this goes back to the anarchist idea,

02:29:07.220 | if you despise Donald Trump, which is your prerogative,

02:29:10.380 | if you think Joe Biden is a clown, which is your prerogative,

02:29:13.660 | there's absolutely no reason for you to be governed

02:29:16.940 | by someone you disapprove of.

02:29:18.780 | This is an incoherent, nonsensical concept.

02:29:21.340 | The only reason we even take it as a hypothesis

02:29:23.860 | is that we're trained to the contrary since kindergarten.

02:29:27.020 | A secession, I don't know along what lines,

02:29:30.180 | but increasingly, it's becoming harder and harder

02:29:33.980 | for people to have conversations.

02:29:36.060 | I think social media, and this is something people

02:29:38.380 | despise social media for, I think this is something

02:29:40.420 | that social media has done well, which I'm advocating for,

02:29:43.660 | is it tends to kind of run through ideas

02:29:47.300 | through like an evolutionary process

02:29:48.740 | and drive them to the logical conclusion.

02:29:51.060 | So it's very hard to be a moderate online

02:29:52.640 | 'cause there's gonna be people pushing through your ideas

02:29:55.340 | through several cycles, and then you're gonna end up

02:29:56.980 | at some kind of more pure,

02:29:58.680 | or if you wanna dislike it, extreme perspective.

02:30:01.760 | Having these different pockets,

02:30:04.740 | it's not really governable 'cause people fundamentally

02:30:07.420 | have different worldviews.

02:30:08.980 | So I don't know what secession would look like.

02:30:11.180 | I think the number is really increasing

02:30:15.580 | at an exponential rate.

02:30:17.380 | I do not think-- - The number of supporters.

02:30:19.300 | - Of supporters.

02:30:20.380 | I think the claim that this can only be accomplished

02:30:22.740 | through violence is false, it's a lie.

02:30:25.900 | Just like any divorce doesn't have to involve

02:30:28.020 | beating your ex-husband or ex-wife.

02:30:30.060 | So, and I'm very much looking forward to this

02:30:34.060 | becoming a reality far quicker than I ever expected.

02:30:38.700 | - Well, do you think there's a value

02:30:40.460 | of competing worldviews being forced

02:30:45.460 | to be in the same space? - Yes, but within a context.

02:30:52.140 | So we can agree, if group one thinks A, B, and C

02:30:56.700 | are the fundamental aspects of their worldview

02:30:59.180 | and argue within that, and group two thinks D, E, and F

02:31:03.220 | and argue within that, so you're gonna have

02:31:05.380 | a lot of argument within those space.

02:31:06.980 | But if there's fundamental differences in worldview,

02:31:09.880 | there's no reason to be, especially when each views

02:31:13.620 | the other as completely incoherent and unreasonable.

02:31:15.540 | - Do you think there's a line of fundamentally different

02:31:20.500 | worldviews that, along which a secession will happen

02:31:25.500 | in the United States?

02:31:27.420 | Like is there something that emerges to you

02:31:29.100 | as a set of ideas that are like, what do you call that?

02:31:34.100 | Like you can't come to an agreement over.

02:31:39.500 | - Yeah, I think that's already happening.

02:31:40.780 | Like with the masks, I think there's just two

02:31:44.100 | fundamental perspective, and each one thinks

02:31:46.820 | the other is insane and also deadly and destructive.

02:31:51.680 | And I don't see how there's any discourse on this topic.

02:31:56.460 | - So on the left--

02:31:58.300 | - I wouldn't say it's left versus right.

02:31:59.540 | I think it's people who are pro-risk

02:32:02.300 | versus people who are risk-averse.

02:32:04.000 | - Yeah, so risk-averse, and then there's like a hope

02:32:10.340 | for the comfort of the sort of centralized science,

02:32:15.340 | giving the truth, and then everybody must follow the truth

02:32:21.580 | of the proper way to behave.

02:32:23.100 | And then there's, on the other side, a distrust

02:32:27.100 | of any kind of centralized institutions,

02:32:29.740 | of anybody who might use control to try to gain

02:32:34.740 | greater and greater power, and masks are a symbol of that.

02:32:38.660 | And even if masks are or are not a--

02:32:42.580 | - Efficacious, yeah.

02:32:43.420 | - Yeah, effective way of stopping the virus,

02:32:48.140 | which is really unfortunate to me from a perspective.

02:32:51.100 | I happen to be on a survey paper about masks.

02:32:53.460 | Like people don't seem to care about the data or so on.

02:32:56.380 | - Correct.

02:32:57.740 | - This has become just a nice point on which

02:33:01.460 | to then highlight the difference between the two sides.

02:33:05.940 | Yeah, it's really, I mean, it sounds kind of on the face,

02:33:10.900 | kind of ridiculous that the secession

02:33:12.500 | would occur over a mask.

02:33:13.580 | - It wouldn't, but I'm saying this is an example

02:33:15.500 | of something where there's a clean break.

02:33:16.700 | - Yes.

02:33:17.700 | - And risk-averse versus someone who's risk-seeking,

02:33:22.700 | these are just two fundamentally different perspectives.

02:33:25.460 | Do you want to have an NHS,

02:33:26.860 | or do you have one of a market-based healthcare system?

02:33:29.780 | You can make very valid arguments for both.

02:33:32.220 | There's no reason for everyone to be under one.

02:33:34.420 | - But you think that's not something that's,

02:33:36.800 | you think that's irreconcilable, if that's the word,

02:33:40.420 | - Yeah.

02:33:41.260 | - That that's not in the space of ideas

02:33:44.460 | that you can have in the same room together,

02:33:46.220 | and they fight at each other and ultimately make progress.

02:33:49.260 | That secession is the more effective way

02:33:51.700 | to proceed forward.

02:33:52.780 | - Yes.

02:33:54.140 | - Well, do you see a possible world

02:33:59.140 | where no is the answer?

02:34:01.380 | Meaning, I know you say yes,

02:34:04.060 | because you kind of lean on the side of freedom

02:34:06.420 | and anarchism.

02:34:08.020 | - Yes.

02:34:08.900 | - Like you make, you want to make,

02:34:10.600 | let me make an argument in terms of divorce,

02:34:14.980 | which is in your worldview or your intuition

02:34:19.020 | is you want to make secession as frictionless as possible.

02:34:22.700 | - Of course.

02:34:23.540 | - Along all lines, not just like states or whatever,

02:34:25.740 | just like you want to choose, you want to be free.

02:34:29.140 | - Yeah, and peaceful.

02:34:30.580 | - Let me make my authoritarian Russian,

02:34:34.420 | - Okay, Papa Stalin.

02:34:35.700 | - Papa Stalin argument in terms of relationships.

02:34:39.460 | Like when shit goes wrong in a relationship,

02:34:42.900 | - Watch your language.

02:34:44.000 | - Okay, there's only a place for one Stalin at this table.

02:34:50.620 | Okay?

02:34:51.460 | - Okay, I'll get to be Lenin.

02:34:52.980 | - No, you get to be like Merkel

02:34:55.060 | as our previous discussion with Putin.

02:34:57.060 | Okay, don't let me unleash the hounds.

02:34:59.480 | You know, you want to work through some of the troubles

02:35:04.500 | before you get divorced.

02:35:05.620 | Like you want to do the work in relationships sometimes.

02:35:07.740 | Like it goes up and down.

02:35:09.020 | - It's been 200 plus years.

02:35:11.380 | It's done.

02:35:13.180 | - But in the, listen, okay, so it's not a one night stand,

02:35:16.400 | but you know.

02:35:17.340 | - Look at Trump, this, I don't see the middle ground.

02:35:20.740 | He's either a complete calamity buffoon

02:35:24.100 | or he's been the first great president we've had

02:35:26.740 | in like many, many years.

02:35:29.140 | - So you think that there's something different now

02:35:31.960 | than it was 20 years ago?

02:35:33.300 | - Yes, social media and access to information.

02:35:36.040 | - And the division will only increase, you think?

02:35:39.380 | - Oh, yes.

02:35:40.220 | - So Trump is not an accident of history.

02:35:42.820 | - So they thought Trump was the river, but he was the dam.

02:35:46.540 | Trump was the dam.

02:35:47.960 | They thought he was the river.

02:35:50.860 | So in that analogy, Trump being gone makes things worse.

02:35:55.700 | - Yes, for that perspective.

02:35:57.300 | Because now things are really gonna hit the fan.

02:35:59.960 | - So what are the odds of secession?

02:36:04.620 | - I don't know.

02:36:05.460 | And my desperate hope is that it's peaceful.

02:36:10.260 | But I think the number of people who are becoming

02:36:12.860 | very comfortable with the violence

02:36:14.660 | is making me very unsettled.

02:36:17.220 | - Well, I see words as violence and your Twitter.

02:36:20.820 | - It's like Hiroshima, times a million.

02:36:24.020 | - Sometimes I curl up in the corner crying

02:36:28.700 | after I check your Twitter feed.

02:36:30.340 | But in all seriousness, you think it's possible

02:36:37.740 | to do nonviolent secession?

02:36:39.740 | - It's a good check of Slovakia.

02:36:41.780 | Look at Brexit.

02:36:43.120 | Brexit was a secession.

02:36:46.120 | - Right, right.

02:36:47.500 | So you can have--

02:36:48.820 | - Civil War did not need to be fought.

02:36:50.680 | That would have been a nonviolent secession.

02:36:52.580 | And if you worry about slavery,

02:36:54.020 | you could have bought off all the slaves,

02:36:55.420 | import them to the North.

02:36:56.860 | It still would have been cheaper and less loss of life

02:36:58.740 | and probably better for race relations.

02:37:01.220 | - Yeah, I don't know enough history to wonder about

02:37:03.940 | how the Civil War could have been avoided.

02:37:05.980 | - Well, that's how.

02:37:07.700 | - Is, well, conversation?

02:37:10.060 | So like--

02:37:11.740 | - No, no, if they want to secede,

02:37:12.820 | say, look, here's what we're gonna do.

02:37:14.460 | We're gonna let you secede,

02:37:16.080 | but you have to end slavery.

02:37:18.080 | They seceded because of slavery.

02:37:19.240 | Here's the other thing.

02:37:20.080 | There's like this, some circles of conservatism

02:37:21.580 | have this myth that, oh, it wasn't about slavery,

02:37:23.320 | it was about states' rights.

02:37:24.440 | Well, if you go back, every state,

02:37:26.240 | when they seceded, released a press release,

02:37:28.400 | and they said explicitly, we're doing this 'cause of slavery.

02:37:30.840 | So that is an abomination that needs to be taken care of.

02:37:33.960 | But the way, other countries have ended slavery peacefully.

02:37:37.800 | One of the ways to do it is pay them by all,

02:37:41.000 | and we end up doing this after the war.

02:37:42.400 | I think the South people got reparations,

02:37:45.200 | the slave owners, it was just insane.

02:37:47.440 | Bring them North, wanna go to Canada, whatever,

02:37:50.160 | and you agree, and that's our peace treaty.

02:37:52.360 | Because the people who died weren't the slave owners.

02:37:56.160 | It was white trash.

02:37:57.780 | And it was, that's who always,

02:37:59.920 | and I hate that that's the term.

02:38:01.200 | I can't think of a better one.

02:38:02.360 | But that's who always ends up fighting these wars often,

02:38:04.240 | disproportionately, it's poor people and uneducated people.

02:38:07.320 | And I do not regard them as cannon fodder.

02:38:09.760 | I think it's horrible.

02:38:11.760 | - So what would it look like?

02:38:14.160 | There'll be two founding documents?

02:38:16.480 | - Yeah, they had their constitution.

02:38:18.320 | - Which I don't know the history of that.

02:38:20.640 | - Yeah, they had a constitution,

02:38:21.760 | but it was much more decentralized.

02:38:23.520 | - If secession doesn't happen.

02:38:26.520 | - Yeah.

02:38:27.340 | - You said that Donald Trump was the dam, not the river.

02:38:33.440 | - Yeah.

02:38:34.280 | - That sounds like Walt Whitman or something.

02:38:37.800 | It's poetry, okay.

02:38:40.040 | - Are you flirting with me?

02:38:41.440 | - You know us, we don't flirt.

02:38:45.880 | We just club and drag you to the cave.

02:38:50.440 | - We hammer and sickle.

02:38:51.640 | - And you don't wanna know about the sickle.

02:38:54.560 | It's not good cop, bad cop.

02:38:56.600 | - Bad cop, worse cop.

02:38:57.700 | - Yeah, what do you think 2024 looks like

02:39:04.240 | in terms of the candidates?

02:39:07.400 | - It's gonna be Kamala Harris

02:39:08.880 | as the Democratic candidate.

02:39:11.400 | I'm really looking forward to Ted Cruz versus Mike Pence,

02:39:14.640 | 'cause they're both very good at debate.

02:39:17.160 | That would be interesting to see

02:39:18.000 | how they differentiate themselves.

02:39:19.160 | But honestly, I mean,

02:39:22.760 | things are gonna get really ugly really soon.

02:39:24.560 | - What about Donald Trump coming back?

02:39:26.080 | - He's not gonna do it.

02:39:27.280 | So things, in my opinion,

02:39:30.200 | I think things are gonna be really, really crazy in 2021.

02:39:33.200 | And talking about the dam being gone.

02:39:34.920 | - 2021, so this year coming up?

02:39:37.480 | - Oh yeah, it's gonna be complete mayhem.

02:39:40.000 | - What do you think, prediction-wise,

02:39:43.720 | and this is empirical,

02:39:45.280 | what do you think Donald Trump's Twitter feed

02:39:48.960 | looks like in 2021?

02:39:52.120 | At the end of 2021, we'll look back

02:39:54.320 | and see what was the Obamagate exclamation points,

02:39:59.320 | or we won.

02:40:01.800 | - He is going to be, for the first time in history,

02:40:05.700 | holding the Republican Party accountable to the base.

02:40:09.860 | We've never had that happen before.

02:40:11.640 | I think he's going to be holding their feet to the fire,

02:40:15.440 | radicalizing them.

02:40:17.240 | And given that they have the Senate,

02:40:19.480 | where it's gonna be 50/50,

02:40:20.940 | the Democrats have a three-seat majority in the House.

02:40:24.000 | This is not a governing coalition for either.

02:40:26.800 | It's going to be complete mayhem.

02:40:28.160 | - What does that actually look like?

02:40:29.320 | So what are the key values you think

02:40:31.320 | that he's gonna try to push?

02:40:34.040 | - I think it's just gonna be very contrarian.

02:40:36.540 | He's gonna be holding them accountable

02:40:38.100 | in terms of budgeting,

02:40:38.940 | even though he never did that as president.

02:40:41.140 | I think in terms of some kind of nominations.

02:40:44.020 | Here's the thing, this is the first time since Nixon,

02:40:47.020 | 50 years, and things weren't as politicized then,

02:40:53.780 | where an incoming president

02:40:54.980 | doesn't have control of the Senate.

02:40:57.060 | The Senate has the vote over cabinet positions.

02:41:01.060 | I do not see a possibility of them not trying to pick a fight

02:41:05.360 | on one or two of these nominations.

02:41:07.920 | And that's gonna, and especially as revenge for Kavanaugh,

02:41:10.600 | this is gonna get very bloody very quickly.

02:41:12.680 | And I think Mitch McConnell,

02:41:14.560 | there's a sadistic side to him.

02:41:16.040 | He revels in being the brakes on the car.

02:41:19.160 | And I think the base, it's just gonna be throwing just,

02:41:21.800 | they're gonna want some bone.

02:41:22.960 | It's like, oh yeah, we eliminated this one person.

02:41:25.780 | So that's gonna get really ugly really quickly.

02:41:28.120 | - You see it being quite divisive.

02:41:31.040 | - Oh yeah. - A division increasing,

02:41:32.300 | not stabilizing or decreasing.

02:41:35.540 | - And I'll be doing my part.

02:41:37.380 | - I know you'll be doing my part,

02:41:38.880 | but I'm trying to do my part.

02:41:40.040 | And like trying to be, like to me,

02:41:43.400 | the division is shouting over people like Elon Musk,

02:41:48.400 | people who are actually building stuff

02:41:51.380 | and like accomplishing things in this world

02:41:53.060 | in terms of like--

02:41:53.900 | - Elon said he took the red pill.

02:41:55.440 | - No, see, you're talking about the,

02:41:59.180 | I'm talking about, forget Elon.

02:42:00.700 | SpaceX and Tesla and actually the good sides

02:42:03.820 | of like some of the things that Google is doing,

02:42:06.320 | like actually building things,

02:42:09.420 | like making the world's information searchable,

02:42:11.580 | all that kind of stuff.

02:42:12.660 | Like all the stuff, you know,

02:42:14.220 | making actually the world a better place.

02:42:18.260 | There's a bunch of technologies

02:42:19.400 | that are increasing our quality of life,

02:42:20.880 | all that kind of stuff.

02:42:22.720 | I feel like they get like not much credit

02:42:25.380 | or in our public discourse because of the division.

02:42:29.540 | The division is just like,

02:42:30.880 | it's clouding our ability to concentrate

02:42:34.940 | on what's awesome about this world.

02:42:36.860 | - Well, you know what would eliminate the division, right?

02:42:39.860 | - Secession?

02:42:40.700 | - Yeah.

02:42:41.660 | - See, I don't,

02:42:42.480 | it's hard for me to disagree.

02:42:46.280 | It's hard for me to disagree because,

02:42:50.660 | but at the same time, secession,

02:42:53.680 | I'm a romantic at heart

02:42:57.980 | and to me, divorce breaks my heart.

02:42:59.580 | - Cool, but do you wanna live in a country--

02:43:01.580 | - Cool story, bro.

02:43:02.420 | - Yeah, but do you wanna live in a country

02:43:03.980 | where Joe Rogan is regarded as an example

02:43:07.100 | of someone who's spreading white supremacy?

02:43:09.260 | I don't.

02:43:10.100 | - Well, but see, I feel like that's not the country

02:43:13.220 | we live in, that's just--

02:43:14.980 | - The New York Times did it.

02:43:16.380 | The cathedral does it on a regular basis.

02:43:19.140 | - Well, the cathedral is, okay.

02:43:21.580 | The cathedral, I guess you can maybe define the cathedral,

02:43:24.940 | but it's like the centralized institutions

02:43:27.160 | that have a story that they're trying to sell and so on.

02:43:29.540 | - Yeah, this is Moldvick's concept,

02:43:30.580 | but yeah, they basically set the limits

02:43:32.620 | of permissible discourse and create a narrative

02:43:34.460 | for the population to follow.

02:43:36.020 | - But to me, that's a minority of people.

02:43:37.940 | - Yeah, minority's always controlling everything

02:43:39.940 | in any country.

02:43:40.780 | The vast majority of the masses have no thought.

02:43:42.820 | - Yeah, but minorities can be overthrown.

02:43:44.940 | - Sure, the circulation of the elites, yeah.

02:43:46.500 | - The way the, no, no, no, no,

02:43:48.060 | and that's what progress looks like

02:43:50.820 | is ridiculous people take power

02:43:53.140 | and then they get annoying and new ridiculous people

02:43:57.160 | that are a little bit better overthrow the previous--

02:43:59.820 | - No, I think progress happens

02:44:01.840 | despite the people who are in power, not because of them.

02:44:04.560 | - Right, and so why is this a secession?

02:44:06.620 | So is it always about overthrowing the powerful?

02:44:11.440 | Is that how progress happens?

02:44:12.760 | - No, I think progress happens despite the powerful.

02:44:14.760 | The powerful are gonna do what's in their power

02:44:17.120 | to maintain their power and they're gonna fight innovation

02:44:19.720 | because it's a threat to their control.

02:44:21.840 | - There's always gonna be the New York Times of the world.

02:44:24.360 | There's always gonna be those--

02:44:25.800 | - Sure, and let them have their own country.

02:44:28.000 | - So it's two countries.

02:44:29.940 | One has Joe Rogan, the other one has the New York Times?

02:44:32.960 | - That's basically what's happening right now.

02:44:34.640 | It's just geographically doesn't map out very well,

02:44:37.920 | but culturally, yes.

02:44:39.080 | - But that's just cultural stuff.

02:44:41.680 | There's a layer of public discourse.

02:44:43.760 | - Okay.

02:44:44.600 | - I don't mean, that's what we're operating under now.

02:44:46.960 | But there's actually progress being made,

02:44:48.600 | like roads being built, hospitals being run,

02:44:52.200 | all those kinds of things, different innovations.

02:44:55.120 | That seems like secession is counterproductive to that.

02:44:59.080 | - Right, 'cause one country would have all the roads

02:45:00.760 | and the other would have all the hospitals.

02:45:02.080 | That's a great point.

02:45:03.560 | - No, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

02:45:05.400 | It's just like, it just feels like the division

02:45:08.720 | that we're experiencing in the space of ideas

02:45:11.800 | could be constructive and productive

02:45:14.440 | for building better roads and better hospitals

02:45:17.480 | as opposed to using that division

02:45:20.440 | to separate the countries.

02:45:21.360 | They're all gonna have to solve the same problems,

02:45:23.640 | it feels like.

02:45:24.480 | - Sure, but they can solve them differently

02:45:27.560 | and compete that way.

02:45:28.800 | Mass is a great example, yeah.

02:45:31.040 | We're seeing that right now.

02:45:31.880 | Different countries have different mass mandates

02:45:33.320 | and things like this.

02:45:34.320 | - And the competition within the same structure,

02:45:37.800 | within the same founding documents and same institutions

02:45:40.600 | is not effective, you think, as effective as separating?

02:45:43.560 | - It is effective, but there is a certain point,

02:45:45.840 | which I think we have long passed,

02:45:47.840 | where there is not a governing consensus

02:45:50.680 | ideologically or culturally.

02:45:52.320 | - Let me ask you a fun question, okay?

02:45:54.000 | - Knock, knock. (laughs)

02:45:56.000 | - Who's there?

02:45:56.840 | Mars.

02:46:00.000 | - God of war.

02:46:02.480 | - The other one.

02:46:04.240 | The planet.

02:46:06.840 | So there is a kind of captivating notion that we might,

02:46:14.680 | I'm excited by it, the human being stepping foot on Mars.

02:46:19.400 | That to me is, it's like one of those things that feels

02:46:24.120 | like it's, why do we want to engage in space exploration?

02:46:30.360 | But I'm a bit with Elon Musk on this, which is,

02:46:35.740 | it's obvious that eventually, if human species is to survive,

02:46:42.120 | it's going to have to innovate in ways

02:46:45.120 | that includes the space.

02:46:46.860 | Like there's a lot of things we're not able to predict yet

02:46:50.640 | that if we push ourselves to the limits of space,

02:46:54.880 | like new ideas will come that'll be obvious

02:46:58.080 | a hundred years from now,

02:46:59.120 | and then we're not even imagining now.

02:47:01.360 | And colonizing Mars, that idea that seems ridiculous,

02:47:05.040 | exceptionally difficult, impossibly expensive,

02:47:08.960 | is something that is actually going to be seen

02:47:12.040 | as obvious in retrospect, and that we should engage in.

02:47:15.040 | Okay, that's just to contextualize things.

02:47:18.400 | The fun idea and experiment from a philosophical

02:47:22.320 | and political sense is, what kind of government,

02:47:27.200 | how do you orchestrate a government when you go to Mars?

02:47:31.440 | We don't get too many chances like this,

02:47:33.240 | but how do you build new systems, not in place of old ones,

02:47:38.580 | but in a place where no system previous have existed?

02:47:41.760 | - I think organically.

02:47:42.880 | I hate that word, but that's the correct word.

02:47:45.400 | You would have to figure out,

02:47:46.960 | I mean, that's how America was built.

02:47:48.520 | You had, it was a Jamestown colony,

02:47:49.920 | and they tried to do communism here,

02:47:51.580 | and it completely failed,

02:47:52.680 | and they went to a more free market system

02:47:54.240 | with the second wave of colonists, is my understanding.

02:47:57.280 | For Mars, I mean, it depends on the population,

02:47:59.720 | who the population was, the number of people.

02:48:02.080 | I don't know, these are all kind of hypotheticals

02:48:07.680 | that I don't really have any good insight in whatsoever.

02:48:10.860 | I'm not a space person.

02:48:12.100 | I hate astronomy, like I hate it.

02:48:14.600 | - So a lot of people look up to the stars,

02:48:16.280 | and they're filled with awe and wonder

02:48:17.740 | about the mystery of the universe,

02:48:19.220 | and you look up to the stars, and you feel what?

02:48:22.680 | - I'm not looking up.

02:48:23.560 | I'm looking at the Earth.

02:48:24.800 | If you look at what's, I'd much rather,

02:48:28.460 | given a choice between Mars and the deep sea,

02:48:32.860 | I'd much rather spend a week at the deep sea

02:48:34.780 | and all the life forms that are down there,

02:48:36.540 | 'cause they're literal aliens.

02:48:38.420 | It's like things that are not literal,

02:48:39.500 | but they're unimaginable to us, some of the things down there.

02:48:42.820 | - Yeah, that's true.

02:48:43.740 | To me, it's an interesting thought experiment

02:48:45.580 | to see when you have 10 people, when you have 100 people,

02:48:49.420 | how do you build an effective,

02:48:51.980 | this is actually really useful for a company, right?

02:48:54.260 | How do you build an effective company that does things?

02:48:57.820 | It's not an obvious, despite everybody being

02:49:00.580 | really certain about everything in this modern world,

02:49:03.700 | to me, it's not obvious, like how do you run successfully

02:49:06.500 | as a group of people?

02:49:07.780 | - That's what I'm saying.

02:49:10.860 | Organic means you have to look at who the people are

02:49:13.260 | and tailor the organization to them,

02:49:15.780 | as opposed to try to impose something.

02:49:17.940 | - But you get to also select people.

02:49:19.580 | - Right, 'cause it's not gonna be open borders on Mars.

02:49:23.060 | - Oh, right.

02:49:23.900 | I was gonna say, when you have one country,

02:49:26.300 | it's all open borders.

02:49:27.260 | Yeah, you're right, from outer space.

02:49:29.420 | - Right.

02:49:30.260 | - Some say they're aliens already there,

02:49:33.620 | so you're gonna have to negotiate that.

02:49:35.180 | - Sure, we're aliens, so.

02:49:37.060 | - We're aliens to somebody.

02:49:38.780 | - We're legal aliens.

02:49:40.100 | - Do you think there's alien civilizations out there?

02:49:42.300 | - Yes, of course.

02:49:44.540 | - What do you think is their system of government?

02:49:46.780 | - Anarchism, 'cause they're advanced.

02:49:48.980 | - Do you honestly think there's

02:49:51.980 | intelligent life forms out there?

02:49:53.220 | - Of course, just the math, it's impossible that there isn't.

02:49:55.820 | - So what do you make of all the stories

02:50:00.020 | of UFO sightings, all that kind of stuff?

02:50:02.940 | Do you think they've visited Earth?

02:50:05.300 | - Yes, my grandfather was an air traffic controller

02:50:08.540 | in the Soviet Union, and he said they would often

02:50:11.180 | see these things that were not operating

02:50:15.020 | the way we knew vehicles operate.

02:50:16.940 | So that's good enough for me.

02:50:18.660 | - So, I mean, do you think government

02:50:20.340 | is in possession of some, like,

02:50:23.020 | what do you think government is doing

02:50:24.300 | with this kind of information?

02:50:25.900 | Do you think somebody has any understanding

02:50:29.060 | of UFO sightings or any kind of information

02:50:35.060 | about extraterrestrial life forms

02:50:39.220 | that are not known to the public?

02:50:41.580 | - Yes, that's indisputably true.

02:50:43.260 | I think the fact that so many of these sightings

02:50:45.500 | are from aerodynamic professionals,

02:50:48.220 | like pilots and things of that nature,

02:50:50.460 | they are people who've seen it all, who are reputable.

02:50:53.020 | If they are on record saying,

02:50:54.820 | "I've seen things that don't make sense,"

02:50:57.520 | and both the Russians and the Americans

02:50:59.420 | thought it was the other one, that says something.

02:51:02.960 | - Shouldn't that be a bigger problem?

02:51:04.700 | Shouldn't that be bigger news and a bigger problem

02:51:07.460 | if government is, in fact, hiding it?

02:51:09.620 | - I guess, but what are they gonna do

02:51:11.220 | with that information?

02:51:13.100 | - It's a good question.

02:51:14.380 | If a UFO, if an extraterrestrial spacecraft,

02:51:19.380 | which most likely would be a crappy space,

02:51:22.780 | it wouldn't be the actual aliens,

02:51:24.860 | it would be some drone probe ship.

02:51:28.140 | - AI. - Yeah, AI, yeah.

02:51:29.900 | So what would you do with that information

02:51:33.200 | as somebody that's in charge of,

02:51:35.600 | you see how badly WHO fumbled the discussion of masks.

02:51:40.600 | Masks, yeah, masks is one of them,

02:51:44.640 | but everything really in terms of communicating

02:51:47.080 | with the public honestly about what they know,

02:51:49.000 | what they don't know, and that's a trivial one.

02:51:52.640 | - Right.

02:51:56.540 | - I don't know, they certainly feel incompetent

02:51:59.940 | at being able to communicate effectively with the public

02:52:03.640 | about something much more difficult,

02:52:06.140 | much more full of mystery, like a UFO.

02:52:09.380 | A thing, a piece of material that's out of this Earth,

02:52:13.820 | forget organic material, I don't know.

02:52:18.820 | To me, from a scientist's perspective,

02:52:21.620 | it would be beautiful, it would be inspiring

02:52:23.940 | to reveal this to the world.

02:52:25.380 | Here's a mystery, and make it completely public.

02:52:28.740 | Share it with China, share it with everybody.

02:52:30.480 | - I think there is a domino effect

02:52:33.540 | where the concern would be what else are you hiding from us?

02:52:35.940 | And at that point, if you said,

02:52:36.980 | no, no, no, this is everything,

02:52:38.420 | people wouldn't believe you,

02:52:39.460 | and you can't blame them for not believing them.

02:52:42.020 | - Ah, yeah.

02:52:44.380 | - And then it'd be like, show us the aliens,

02:52:46.980 | they'd be like, we don't have them,

02:52:47.820 | we just have the craft, you're lying.

02:52:50.620 | - Speaking of aliens, offline, you mentioned elves.

02:52:55.620 | - Yeah.

02:52:56.860 | - And psychedelics. - Yeah.

02:52:58.860 | - What do you think about psychedelics

02:53:01.740 | in terms of the kind of places that can take your mind,

02:53:07.980 | the kind of journey it can take you on?

02:53:11.500 | Like, what do you think, what is,

02:53:14.400 | what do you think the psychedelics do to the human mind,

02:53:17.820 | and what does that say about the capacity

02:53:20.020 | of the human mind, and just in general,

02:53:21.980 | like the mysteries of all that's out there?

02:53:23.540 | - I don't know that we understand what they do.

02:53:26.300 | The way I heard it explained to me

02:53:28.740 | is that much of the human mind

02:53:30.780 | isn't about receiving information,

02:53:33.460 | but blocking information, right?

02:53:35.820 | Because there's so much data coming in any moment

02:53:38.380 | that you basically have to train yourself

02:53:39.960 | to see and to hear only what you want to see and to hear.

02:53:42.740 | And that what psychedelics do is they tear that away,

02:53:45.360 | and suddenly you're much more aware of what's out there,

02:53:47.180 | and also you're gonna be noticing patterns

02:53:48.660 | that you hadn't noticed before.

02:53:49.940 | I know you had that researcher on the show,

02:53:51.540 | and he kind of discussed this at some length.

02:53:53.940 | I mean, Rogan is probably the person

02:53:58.540 | who popularized DMT more than,

02:54:00.260 | well, he's obviously the person

02:54:01.260 | who's popularized DMT more than anything.

02:54:03.860 | I don't know anyone who has, even researchers,

02:54:07.140 | who have anything close to a coherent explanation

02:54:10.300 | of why this drug, which exists everywhere,

02:54:13.860 | would have this very specific, very extreme effect

02:54:16.900 | on so many people who are going to be experiencing

02:54:19.780 | such bizarre consequences as a result of it.

02:54:23.020 | I think it's very interesting that,

02:54:25.020 | this is talking about the government,

02:54:26.500 | the CIA started experimenting with LSD.

02:54:29.780 | They killed one of their own people, drove them to suicide.

02:54:33.100 | And there was a lot of research into,

02:54:35.780 | Terrence McKenna talks about this, into this field.

02:54:39.580 | And then very quickly, once it got into the mainstream,

02:54:42.140 | they shut it down, even though it's not addictive,

02:54:44.780 | it doesn't cause you to go crazy or anything like that.

02:54:46.980 | And there was a lot of propaganda against its use,

02:54:49.820 | which I think, thankfully, is now somewhat receding.

02:54:52.620 | I think in Colorado, just legalized mushrooms,

02:54:54.540 | something like that.

02:54:55.660 | And I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens

02:54:57.460 | as a result of this.

02:54:58.700 | - Yeah, and the interesting thing is,

02:55:00.580 | there doesn't seem to be, for certain psychedelics,

02:55:03.460 | like psilocybin, like mushrooms,

02:55:05.660 | there doesn't seem to be a lethal dose,

02:55:08.140 | which is fascinating.

02:55:09.860 | Like Matthew Johnson, the Hopkins professor

02:55:13.740 | that you mentioned, I'm definitely gonna do

02:55:17.420 | one of his studies.

02:55:18.900 | It's a really cool way to do what he calls a heroic dose.

02:55:23.900 | - Oh, I wanna do it.

02:55:26.660 | What do I have to do?

02:55:27.500 | Let's do it. - I'll let you know.

02:55:28.340 | So he is--

02:55:30.340 | - A heroic dose, holy crap.

02:55:32.060 | - Yeah, but it's safe.

02:55:35.020 | - What's a, how many grams are we talking?

02:55:37.940 | - I don't know, but it's just, it's big.

02:55:40.860 | He says that--

02:55:42.780 | - He's gonna have a kick.

02:55:44.380 | - Yeah, so he says that, I mean, he also studies cocaine,

02:55:48.300 | he studies all kinds of drugs,

02:55:49.940 | and he's like, the psilocybin is--

02:55:53.100 | - Heroic dose of cocaine kills you.

02:55:55.100 | - Well, you can't, so you can't even come close.

02:55:58.780 | So he says like, the problem with studying cocaine

02:56:01.220 | is you have like people who are addicted to cocaine,

02:56:05.060 | or war, or so on, you give 'em the kind of doses

02:56:08.620 | that we can in part of the study,

02:56:10.140 | it's like, it's nothing to them.

02:56:13.260 | - Right, yeah, yeah.

02:56:14.100 | - Psilocybin is the only one where like,

02:56:16.020 | even like daily users, or like regular users,

02:56:20.540 | like are blown away by the dose they give them.

02:56:23.500 | - Oh, fuck.

02:56:24.340 | (Lex laughing)

02:56:25.180 | - So.

02:56:26.000 | (Lex laughing)

02:56:26.840 | - Okay, well, we're going back to Russia.

02:56:28.100 | (Lex laughing)

02:56:29.340 | - You can go to Russia in your mind.

02:56:30.940 | - Yeah.

02:56:32.100 | - You can go to outer space, maybe.

02:56:34.540 | Maybe you'll become an astronaut,

02:56:36.100 | or astronomer after all.

02:56:39.140 | - Maybe I'll be Baba Yaga.

02:56:40.500 | (Lex laughing)

02:56:42.660 | - I'll let people look that one up.

02:56:44.420 | - Holy crap, wow.

02:56:45.480 | - What is love?

02:56:48.580 | What do you think this thing is?

02:56:52.180 | Like our attachment to other human beings?

02:56:55.960 | And is it something that we should give

02:56:58.820 | to just a few people?

02:57:00.060 | - Yes, that's for sure.

02:57:01.860 | When I was working with D.L. Hughley in his book,

02:57:04.700 | he didn't use the term, but he was describing

02:57:07.520 | like low-key depression.

02:57:09.900 | And he talked about how he was in the airport,

02:57:12.940 | and he noticed a girl had a red dress,

02:57:15.060 | and he went up and thanked her,

02:57:16.220 | and she was like, "What are you thanking for?"

02:57:17.620 | And he had realized he hadn't registered color in weeks.

02:57:20.640 | And I think love is like that.

02:57:24.260 | When you see someone, and you just like,

02:57:27.340 | "Oh, like your eyes are open.

02:57:29.400 | "Like this is something I've never seen before.

02:57:32.320 | "I want more of this," that kind of thing.

02:57:34.340 | It really disorients and reorients your thinking.

02:57:39.340 | - Don't you find that the world is full of that nonstop?

02:57:45.320 | It's not just like a person either.

02:57:47.120 | - Yes, but when it's in a person,

02:57:50.280 | it's a whole other level, 'cause it's like,

02:57:52.480 | I could have, this is gonna be great for years.

02:57:54.960 | It's like, every day it's something new.

02:57:57.680 | I mean, and that is rare.

02:58:00.520 | - You think it's rare?

02:58:01.980 | Find someone who you could talk to them for years

02:58:04.780 | and not run out of things to talk to.

02:58:06.100 | - Oh, that's true, for years, yes, yes.

02:58:07.740 | - That's rare.

02:58:09.260 | And know that they really, if you leave the room,

02:58:12.140 | they will do right by you.

02:58:14.100 | That's really rare.

02:58:15.540 | - Well, from a Russian perspective,

02:58:19.580 | you just don't give them another choice.

02:58:21.580 | (Lex laughing)

02:58:24.160 | This is (speaking in foreign language)

02:58:28.860 | New Year, New Year's Eve.

02:58:31.460 | - Yeah.

02:58:32.300 | - So you've talked about secession

02:58:36.420 | and the world burning down,

02:58:37.660 | and you holding the match at the end,

02:58:41.940 | standing with a big smile on your face.

02:58:43.980 | - Yes, why so serious?

02:58:45.900 | - But let me ask you,

02:58:49.100 | if it doesn't include flame and secession and destruction

02:58:53.940 | and laughing malice and makeup and a white suit at the end,

02:58:59.540 | how do we bring more kindness and love to the world in 2021?

02:59:03.360 | - Oh, easy.

02:59:04.880 | Be comfortable saying, "I want to be happy."

02:59:09.320 | And if there's someone who interjects

02:59:11.720 | and gives you attitude, arms lengthen.

02:59:15.680 | Surround yourself with people who also want to be happy.

02:59:19.360 | Here's a great example.

02:59:20.840 | My buddy, Chris Williamson, who I've mentioned before,

02:59:22.800 | he's a podcaster, does Modern Wisdom.

02:59:25.200 | He's an awesome dude, and we became friends,

02:59:28.040 | very close friends this past year.

02:59:30.120 | And he was in Dubai recently,

02:59:31.800 | and he sent me pics from Dubai by the pool, just loving life.

02:59:35.560 | And it took me a week, and then it clicked in my head.

02:59:39.100 | And I'm like, "You know what?

02:59:40.640 | "For some other people,

02:59:43.620 | "if they saw him, underwear model, at the pool,

02:59:47.460 | "they would think this is him bragging or humble bragging."

02:59:50.680 | And that never entered my head.

02:59:51.920 | I'm like, "Oh man, I'm so glad my boy

02:59:54.580 | "can be having a good time and is sharing his joy with me."

02:59:59.580 | That's the kind of people you need to surround yourself with

03:00:02.140 | where it never enters their head to be resentful

03:00:05.140 | or anything other than sharing in your bounty.

03:00:09.500 | - What makes you happy?

03:00:12.000 | - I'm happy all the time.

03:00:15.060 | And one of the points I made in my life is,

03:00:17.700 | I really hated, I really did not like to give advice

03:00:20.740 | because I feel, don't give advice

03:00:22.220 | until you know what you're talking about.

03:00:24.260 | And to me, what makes me happy is being self-actualized.

03:00:27.620 | I am in a position with my career

03:00:30.620 | where I could be myself 24/7,

03:00:33.460 | where I never have to engage in small talk,

03:00:36.180 | where I never have to interact with someone I don't want to.

03:00:39.100 | And I'm very blessed to have that.

03:00:41.260 | Very few people have that.

03:00:42.780 | And to have that be not only,

03:00:45.520 | to have that be rewarded,

03:00:49.220 | and having people find that something of value to them

03:00:52.980 | makes me very, very happy.

03:00:55.140 | But also being an uncle.

03:00:57.260 | I have two little nephews.

03:00:58.540 | They make me very, very happy.

03:01:00.220 | Sure, my sister's raised in the Russian

03:01:02.780 | so they talk like immigrants, but that's okay.

03:01:05.100 | We're gonna change that.

03:01:06.860 | We have to dismember her, that's fine.

03:01:08.800 | That makes me happy.

03:01:09.980 | And to be able to finish this book

03:01:14.460 | and know it's gonna give people a sense of hope,

03:01:17.060 | that's really validating.

03:01:20.020 | - What are you most grateful for for our conversation today?

03:01:23.660 | - (laughs) You're stealing my bit.

03:01:27.620 | What am I most grateful for?

03:01:29.900 | I am very grateful that I can come in here

03:01:34.900 | not knowing what we're gonna talk about

03:01:38.340 | and know it's not gonna be something

03:01:41.060 | I have to be on guard about,

03:01:43.220 | or I have to watch my words,

03:01:45.500 | and that neither you or your audience

03:01:47.460 | is going to be responding derisively.

03:01:51.940 | I feel safe here.

03:01:55.140 | - You're welcome.

03:01:55.980 | (laughs)

03:01:57.460 | - Spasibo.

03:01:58.300 | - Thanks for talking to me, Michael.

03:01:59.380 | It was awesome.

03:02:00.220 | Thank you for listening to this conversation

03:02:03.020 | with Michael Malice, and thank you to our sponsors.

03:02:05.980 | NetSuite Business Management Software,

03:02:08.860 | Athletic Greens All-in-One Nutrition Drink,

03:02:11.520 | Sun Basket Meal Delivery Service, and Cash App.

03:02:16.100 | So the choice is success, health, food, or money.

03:02:21.100 | Choose wisely, my friends.

03:02:23.140 | And if you wish, click the sponsor links below

03:02:26.100 | to get a discount to support this podcast.

03:02:29.020 | And now, let me leave you with some words

03:02:31.180 | from Emma Goldman on anarchism.

03:02:34.340 | People have only as much liberty

03:02:36.500 | as they have the intelligence to want

03:02:38.860 | and the courage to take.

03:02:41.140 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

03:02:43.900 | (upbeat music)

03:02:46.480 | (upbeat music)

03:02:49.060 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Michael Malice: Freedom, Hope, and Happiness Amidst Chaos | Lex Fridman Podcast #150

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