Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens,

00:00:03.280 | 2016 Olympic silver medalist in judo

00:00:06.440 | and one of the greatest American judoka ever.

00:00:09.720 | But his story is inspiring,

00:00:11.360 | not because of that Olympic medal,

00:00:13.380 | but because of the decades of injury, hardship,

00:00:16.280 | incredible battles against the best in the world,

00:00:18.840 | wrapping up in close, heartbreaking losses

00:00:21.000 | at the 2008 and 2012 games,

00:00:23.680 | all of which eventually led

00:00:26.000 | to that very silver medal in 2016.

00:00:29.400 | As we talk about in the podcast,

00:00:31.240 | Travis is also someone who's largely responsible

00:00:34.320 | for me getting into judo,

00:00:36.000 | for which I will forever be grateful.

00:00:38.480 | He also happens to be now my judo coach and mentor.

00:00:42.680 | I'll release a video of Travis and I

00:00:44.440 | doing some judo in a few days.

00:00:46.820 | To support this podcast,

00:00:48.140 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

00:00:50.600 | As a side note, let me say a few words

00:00:53.840 | that I've written down about the Olympic Games

00:00:57.200 | and the International Olympics Committee.

00:00:59.560 | I'm visiting family, hence the T-shirt,

00:01:02.380 | but I had to pull away to write and to say these words

00:01:06.680 | because this very video was taken down by YouTube

00:01:10.680 | as per the request of the IOC.

00:01:13.920 | You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away

00:01:16.400 | from family, food, and drink.

00:01:18.400 | I'm heartbroken to see continued incompetence,

00:01:22.000 | greed, and corruption on the part of the IOC

00:01:24.780 | in failing to do as the Olympic Charter states to quote,

00:01:28.720 | "Ensure the fullest coverage

00:01:31.080 | "and the widest possible audience in the world

00:01:33.640 | "for the Olympic Games," end quote.

00:01:36.060 | I want to give you two facts.

00:01:38.880 | First, they do not make most of the videos

00:01:41.560 | of the games available for replay anywhere

00:01:44.300 | that is accessible, searchable, and discoverable,

00:01:47.400 | whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.

00:01:50.060 | For example, on YouTube or their own service.

00:01:53.340 | It is not available anywhere.

00:01:56.440 | Second, in the most absurd violation

00:01:58.860 | of the Olympic Charter, they've uploaded all of the videos

00:02:02.520 | of the 2012, 2016, and the 2020/21 Olympics to YouTube,

00:02:07.520 | and they set all of these videos to private.

00:02:13.160 | This results in a situation like my four-hour conversation

00:02:17.280 | that you're watching now with Travis Stevens

00:02:19.360 | being taken down due to us including a few seconds

00:02:22.820 | of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match

00:02:26.320 | against Ole Bischoff in 2012.

00:02:28.560 | This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.

00:02:32.200 | I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012.

00:02:36.560 | Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist,

00:02:40.660 | someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries,

00:02:43.860 | losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial

00:02:47.600 | or psychological support, culminating

00:02:49.780 | in the biggest heartbreak of his career.

00:02:53.060 | In this one match, and this match is available nowhere

00:02:56.620 | online, not for free, not for $1 million.

00:02:59.540 | Our showing short clips of it results

00:03:03.460 | in the IOC taking it down, not demonetizing it,

00:03:06.680 | taking it down, blocking it.

00:03:09.240 | The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens,

00:03:13.140 | of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph.

00:03:16.740 | And there are thousands of stories like it,

00:03:18.940 | stories that are supposed to inspire the world.

00:03:21.820 | To me and to billions of others,

00:03:24.500 | the Olympic Games give a chance to celebrate

00:03:26.820 | and to be inspired by the greatest stories

00:03:29.420 | of human flourishing in the face of hardship

00:03:32.220 | and incredibly long odds or dominance

00:03:35.020 | in the pursuit of perfection at levels previously thought

00:03:37.680 | to be impossible.

00:03:39.300 | The Olympic Games inspire kids like me to dream

00:03:43.700 | and to work hard to achieve in our own lives,

00:03:46.200 | the same moments of magic and greatness,

00:03:49.140 | small or big, that the Olympic Games reveal.

00:03:53.600 | I believe the members of the IOC are good people,

00:03:57.180 | but people who forgot the dream,

00:04:00.020 | the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts

00:04:03.300 | when they first saw the Olympics as kids.

00:04:06.080 | They've allowed the gradual corruption

00:04:08.460 | of their own human spirit, and thereby have robbed the world

00:04:12.380 | of this very fire, the fire of the Olympic torch,

00:04:16.200 | the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids

00:04:19.400 | watching the Olympics today,

00:04:21.280 | daring to dream, daring to be great.

00:04:24.580 | Please, please do better.

00:04:27.860 | The world needs you.

00:04:28.960 | The world needs the Olympic Games.

00:04:31.380 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast,

00:04:35.680 | and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.

00:04:40.080 | Judo is a martial art, a sport, a set of techniques,

00:04:43.400 | ideas, and philosophies.

00:04:45.120 | Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview

00:04:48.620 | of what is judo to somebody who's like outside

00:04:52.440 | the whole spectrum of grappling sports?

00:04:54.780 | - Yeah, judo was originated in Japan that was used

00:04:58.700 | as a police tactic for self-defense and subduing people.

00:05:03.700 | It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground

00:05:07.960 | and hold and control the situation.

00:05:10.440 | I think it's pretty much evolved since then, though.

00:05:14.320 | It's, as you include the sport aspect of it,

00:05:17.800 | it's grown to be something more and more dynamic,

00:05:22.440 | and it's kind of gotten away from that.

00:05:25.040 | - So the basics is people wear something called a gi,

00:05:29.000 | which I think nicely mimics outdoor clothing, like a jacket.

00:05:34.540 | And they start on the feet,

00:05:37.140 | and they get to grip each other,

00:05:40.820 | and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is,

00:05:45.100 | the more points you get.

00:05:46.460 | And if you throw the person big and hard on their back,

00:05:51.460 | you win the match and it's over, and that's called an ippon.

00:05:55.620 | - Yep, which is equivalent to a knockout.

00:05:58.260 | - So I guess there's no knockdowns in judo.

00:06:01.180 | - We don't count those.

00:06:02.740 | They gotta hit their back,

00:06:03.920 | and they gotta hit it with force.

00:06:05.900 | - And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws.

00:06:08.940 | - Yeah.

00:06:09.780 | - And there's also the drama of somebody catching you

00:06:14.780 | off guard with a surprise big throw and it's over.

00:06:17.940 | - Yep, there's two ways of losing, really.

00:06:21.180 | There's the, I saw this coming, right?

00:06:25.340 | Like you just, you see it, but you can't stop it.

00:06:29.340 | And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with.

00:06:33.020 | The ones that are like really hard to live with

00:06:35.160 | are the ones you never saw coming, right?

00:06:37.320 | 'Cause that just shows that

00:06:39.120 | that person has really outclassed you.

00:06:41.440 | - Right, so there's like a set of, a small set of throws,

00:06:44.760 | maybe we can go through them, that are like,

00:06:47.260 | you saw it coming, but you couldn't do anything about it.

00:06:49.920 | And then there's the set of throws

00:06:51.640 | that are more like surprises.

00:06:53.560 | So first of all, the counters,

00:06:55.360 | or if you fake one thing and go the other way,

00:06:58.440 | then that's a surprise and it's like, oh shit.

00:07:00.600 | You off-balanced the person

00:07:02.780 | because they think you're going one way

00:07:04.260 | and then you go the other way.

00:07:05.200 | And then it's just, oh shit moment, all of a sudden,

00:07:07.740 | your back is just slammed on the ground.

00:07:10.420 | One of the ones, I mean, you're good of many throws,

00:07:12.580 | but one of them is a,

00:07:14.860 | that I think reveals the beauty of judo is the foot sweep.

00:07:18.780 | There's something about the off-balance and the timing

00:07:21.920 | that if you catch him right, all of a sudden,

00:07:24.420 | it's like I had the same feeling when skydiving,

00:07:26.860 | like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.

00:07:29.620 | - Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness

00:07:31.440 | for like a split second

00:07:32.600 | and you realize you've lost like all control of your limbs.

00:07:35.920 | Like it's like zero gravity, right?

00:07:38.520 | Like you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate,

00:07:40.720 | you can't do much of anything.

00:07:42.200 | And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.

00:07:44.120 | - Yeah.

00:07:45.160 | It's a cool feeling when you get thrown

00:07:48.160 | because you hope to do the same thing to another person.

00:07:51.800 | It's like, you just hit the ground hard

00:07:54.720 | because it's not, you didn't see it coming.

00:07:56.480 | It wasn't a big throw that got loaded up.

00:07:58.800 | It's like all of a sudden, surprise.

00:08:01.420 | And then like this like feeling your back just slams

00:08:06.060 | and there's like the air is up.

00:08:07.820 | - Yeah, and the worst is when you get hit twice

00:08:10.000 | with one throw, right?

00:08:11.140 | Because sometimes like the guy throwing you

00:08:14.080 | didn't expect you to leave either.

00:08:15.380 | So you hit and then that guy comes down

00:08:17.800 | like a second and a half later and it's like, boom, boom.

00:08:21.020 | And then the wind is just gone from you.

00:08:22.900 | - Yeah.

00:08:24.180 | - Those are the worst.

00:08:25.100 | - And then there's the disappointment.

00:08:26.780 | Like then the intellectual, the cognitive part comes in

00:08:30.520 | where you're like, oh shit, I just lost.

00:08:32.280 | - Yep, and you don't have like a connection to why, right?

00:08:37.160 | It's almost like you've just,

00:08:38.180 | like you didn't literally get a concussion.

00:08:39.840 | Like you understand and remember everything,

00:08:43.080 | but you can't figure out how this just happened, right?

00:08:46.880 | Those are the tough ones to deal with.

00:08:49.200 | - Actually, have you had moments like that

00:08:51.240 | where you don't understand how it happened?

00:08:53.180 | You have to watch footage to understand what happened?

00:08:55.080 | - Even when you watch it, you're just like,

00:08:57.280 | I don't get it.

00:08:58.980 | Like, why wasn't I in a position to stop this?

00:09:02.320 | It makes zero sense.

00:09:05.080 | Conceptually, when you watch it, you're like,

00:09:08.520 | I understand how to play defense.

00:09:10.560 | I understand, it looks like I'm in a defensive position,

00:09:14.820 | but at the end of the day, I still got thrown.

00:09:18.580 | - Yeah, you were talking about, what is it, a 2008 match?

00:09:22.940 | You have a non-traditional gripping style,

00:09:26.020 | is that accurate to say?

00:09:27.540 | But, and then you were going against

00:09:28.620 | another right-handed player,

00:09:30.780 | and then there was some kind of fake that he did,

00:09:34.020 | and then he caught you.

00:09:35.740 | - Yep.

00:09:36.700 | - Can you describe the throw he caught you with?

00:09:38.660 | - He caught me with a drop sail,

00:09:41.940 | but he kind of like, we were engaged,

00:09:45.580 | we were looking at each other,

00:09:46.820 | and we were kind of at like a stalemate, right?

00:09:50.460 | He couldn't really advance, I couldn't really advance,

00:09:53.060 | and he kind of just let his gaze like,

00:09:55.660 | wander off to the right, like he was looking at something,

00:09:58.380 | and then I kind of like, what's over there?

00:10:00.980 | And then I got thrown.

00:10:02.080 | And it's like.

00:10:04.380 | - So first of all, for people who don't know,

00:10:07.460 | seo is seoi nage, drop means when you drop to your knees,

00:10:11.460 | and seoi nage is one of the fundamental throws of judo,

00:10:14.620 | there's just a handful.

00:10:16.180 | But, does that actually ever work?

00:10:18.700 | I always wondered that about like, boxing or judo,

00:10:22.500 | does the head movement of the person work?

00:10:25.180 | 'Cause we're still like, kind of dogs at heart.

00:10:27.460 | If you look somewhere with a dog,

00:10:29.480 | the dog is gonna look that direction as well.

00:10:31.660 | Does that actually work ever?

00:10:33.020 | - It does.

00:10:33.960 | But on a greater sense, what you try to do

00:10:38.420 | is not necessarily get like, a physical reaction of a look,

00:10:42.940 | but a lull of security where like,

00:10:45.640 | they've almost like, relaxed for that split second

00:10:48.720 | because you've lured them into like, a sense of comfort.

00:10:52.720 | And then that's when you can strike.

00:10:55.380 | - So you have this, speaking of seoi nage,

00:10:57.640 | you have this gigantic standing seoi nage.

00:11:01.280 | - Yep.

00:11:02.160 | - And you have a specific grip.

00:11:05.240 | One of our challenges is, there's a large number of people

00:11:08.080 | that listen to the audio version of this.

00:11:10.280 | So we're gonna have to try to describe some of this stuff.

00:11:13.200 | I'll do my best to try to describe with words.

00:11:15.640 | But you have, you grip with your left hand

00:11:19.260 | on the lapel of the jacket or like, that area.

00:11:23.040 | - Yep.

00:11:23.880 | - And there's kind of a lean into the person.

00:11:27.080 | And I suppose, is there a feeling of a lull there

00:11:29.320 | that you're trying to get to where you're just,

00:11:31.240 | it feels like you're both calmly dancing

00:11:33.640 | before you turn your hips and go in for the throw?

00:11:36.280 | - I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness

00:11:42.280 | for my lead leg, which would be my right leg.

00:11:46.120 | And a sense of resistance from my partner.

00:11:51.120 | - So aren't you both kind of leaning into each other?

00:11:55.440 | - Into each other and it creates like an A-frame.

00:11:58.200 | - Yeah.

00:11:59.040 | - But when the A-frame is held together at the top half,

00:12:00.900 | which would be my left hand and their right hand

00:12:02.920 | posted on each other's chest,

00:12:04.560 | it means our legs are free to move

00:12:06.600 | and our hips are free to move.

00:12:07.640 | - Right.

00:12:08.480 | And they're not gonna feel your leg move.

00:12:10.680 | - Because of the weightlessness.

00:12:12.040 | - And is there a feeling like, for them,

00:12:14.200 | is there a feeling like nothing bad can happen here?

00:12:16.280 | We're all relaxed, everything's fine.

00:12:18.520 | - Yeah.

00:12:19.360 | - And then they're standing off at a funny angle

00:12:21.360 | and before they know it, I've spun

00:12:23.320 | and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere.

00:12:25.760 | - Yeah.

00:12:26.760 | Yeah.

00:12:27.600 | How did you first develop that throw?

00:12:29.040 | So for people, it's called Ippon Seinagi,

00:12:32.280 | which means your right hand goes under their armpit area.

00:12:36.840 | And that's like a vice that connects you to them.

00:12:41.360 | - Yeah.

00:12:42.200 | - And then they go on for the ride.

00:12:43.840 | - Yep.

00:12:44.680 | - The interesting thing with the standing one

00:12:45.880 | is as opposed to drop Seinagi version,

00:12:49.680 | the drop Seinagi, you kind of drop under them.

00:12:54.160 | And because there's a vice,

00:12:55.720 | they're like pulled under and like over.

00:12:59.440 | - Yeah.

00:13:00.400 | - With the standing one,

00:13:02.400 | I suppose there's some similar physics,

00:13:04.760 | but you're kind of loading them onto your hip.

00:13:07.400 | And so they're in the air while you're standing still.

00:13:11.440 | There's a sense in which they're,

00:13:15.240 | like you're lifting them above where they started.

00:13:19.040 | - Yes.

00:13:19.880 | - That's how you get the really big air.

00:13:22.240 | - Yeah.

00:13:23.080 | - Obviously if everything is right.

00:13:27.000 | So how did you first develop that?

00:13:28.720 | How did you first?

00:13:29.880 | - I first learned just learning like the very basics

00:13:32.960 | of the throw, foot placement, all that kind of stuff.

00:13:36.640 | And then like anything, the basics are nice.

00:13:40.240 | But once you get good at the basics,

00:13:43.120 | it's very easy to stop,

00:13:44.920 | but it gives you a good like fundamental platform

00:13:47.400 | to learn off of and to expand off of.

00:13:51.400 | And then I expanded when I first started watching Koga,

00:13:54.800 | the new wind, right?

00:13:56.160 | 'Cause he's the one that first like introduced

00:13:59.240 | that split hip style Seinagi that I do.

00:14:02.960 | Once I learned that one,

00:14:06.280 | I built about eight different variations of Seio

00:14:10.960 | off that one start position.

00:14:13.280 | That way I could, regardless of your defense,

00:14:15.640 | I had an answer for a throw.

00:14:18.000 | - So why that one though?

00:14:19.200 | Why, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?

00:14:22.600 | Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?

00:14:25.280 | - It was really a sense of,

00:14:29.840 | you know, one of my shortcomings as a kid,

00:14:31.880 | like I hate leg day in the gym.

00:14:35.440 | I hate it with a passion.

00:14:36.960 | If you ask me to do a squat, I'll get it done,

00:14:41.240 | but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.

00:14:44.000 | I hate it.

00:14:44.840 | I remember one time I was at the gym with my trainer

00:14:46.840 | and he goes, "Okay, we're gonna do front squats.

00:14:48.680 | "And I want you to put 225 on the bar."

00:14:50.480 | And I was like, "I can't do that."

00:14:52.800 | And he was like, "What do you mean you can't do that?"

00:14:54.920 | And I go, "I physically, I can't do that."

00:14:58.040 | And he was like, "Are you serious?"

00:15:00.400 | And I go, "Yeah."

00:15:01.240 | So he didn't believe me.

00:15:02.680 | We put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.

00:15:05.280 | And then he was like, "Okay, let's go down to 185."

00:15:06.920 | And I was like, "I can't do that.

00:15:08.440 | "I just, it's not happening."

00:15:10.240 | - You probably couldn't strength-wise, you just refused.

00:15:12.840 | - I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around like,

00:15:15.760 | "This ain't happening, I'm not doing it."

00:15:17.800 | So I ended up with like 95 pounds on the bar.

00:15:21.800 | I got you at a front squat, no problem.

00:15:23.920 | - By the way, body weight squats are rough too,

00:15:25.960 | psychologically.

00:15:27.320 | - Yeah, I just, when it comes to my legs,

00:15:29.440 | like I want no part of like leg pressing,

00:15:33.800 | single leg squats, split squat, any of that,

00:15:36.120 | I want no part of it.

00:15:36.960 | - So you think like the more traditional variants

00:15:39.160 | of San Aki require you to-

00:15:40.840 | - Have that leg strength, that mass.

00:15:43.440 | Like when you watch Japanese Judo players,

00:15:45.120 | like their thighs and their hips, they're thick.

00:15:48.120 | Like they got a lot of power there.

00:15:50.080 | - So you're almost like always dropping a little bit

00:15:52.680 | into a squat position.

00:15:54.400 | - For mine, never.

00:15:55.440 | - No, no, no, not you, sorry.

00:15:56.760 | - For them, yeah. - The traditional ones.

00:15:58.160 | - Yeah.

00:15:59.000 | And so the split hip,

00:16:00.720 | the split hip actually allows me to keep my legs straight.

00:16:04.000 | And the farther I split my legs,

00:16:05.480 | the lower my center of gravity goes.

00:16:07.320 | Now I don't need my legs.

00:16:08.800 | - Yeah.

00:16:09.640 | - Perfect, love it, let's do it.

00:16:11.440 | - So that's the way you were thinking about it, okay.

00:16:14.040 | But it's, you know, the interesting thing about it

00:16:16.640 | is because, you know, as I mentioned to you,

00:16:19.480 | I've gotten to Judo after first watching you in the Olympics

00:16:24.360 | and then watching Koga as well.

00:16:26.680 | And so you start imitating the people you foresee

00:16:29.680 | and then you take it to Judo coaches

00:16:31.680 | and they're like, no, no, no, no,

00:16:32.640 | that's the wrong way to do it.

00:16:34.680 | And happens all the time, it drives me nuts, drives me nuts.

00:16:38.600 | I was in Poland one time teaching a camp

00:16:41.920 | and I had two coaches anti-coaching,

00:16:46.480 | telling their kids not to do Seoi the way I do it

00:16:49.080 | because it never works.

00:16:50.280 | - Yeah.

00:16:51.120 | - It's crazy.

00:16:52.000 | - How do you have the fortitude and the guts

00:16:55.520 | to just go on with a throw that's not traditional,

00:16:58.120 | a variant that's not traditional?

00:17:00.120 | - If you think about it, you know,

00:17:04.080 | from a very basic like root of it,

00:17:08.520 | there's a philosophy and a mentality of Judo

00:17:11.200 | of how the throws work, right?

00:17:13.360 | There's a mechanical structure there of like,

00:17:16.120 | this makes sense.

00:17:18.240 | If I follow that principle, I can do anything I want.

00:17:21.000 | Nothing else matters,

00:17:23.320 | as long as we follow those core principles.

00:17:25.560 | - So in the early days,

00:17:27.000 | even then you were able to think on your own.

00:17:29.880 | - Yeah, and I was able to develop a pattern

00:17:33.040 | for my foot placement based on my opponent's height

00:17:36.720 | because the number one thing any Judo coach would tell you

00:17:39.840 | is you need your center of gravity below the others.

00:17:42.720 | Well, now I know exactly where to put my feet

00:17:45.360 | because the shorter you are, the bigger the split

00:17:48.560 | because the lower I need to get.

00:17:49.760 | The taller you are, the less of a split I need.

00:17:52.560 | - Is there something you could say

00:17:53.600 | about fundamental principles of Judo?

00:17:57.200 | Is there, over all that time,

00:18:00.160 | not 20, over 20 years that you've been doing Judo,

00:18:02.760 | it's not approaching 30, is it?

00:18:06.040 | - Yeah, it's getting there.

00:18:09.520 | - Okay.

00:18:10.360 | - We're a couple of years away, but it's getting there.

00:18:13.640 | - Is there some like principles that have emerged?

00:18:17.120 | Like you said, you have to have your center of gravity

00:18:19.920 | below theirs.

00:18:20.760 | - Yep.

00:18:21.600 | - Is there another kind of, both on the gripping side,

00:18:24.080 | the footwork side, leverage, anything you can speak to?

00:18:28.160 | - There's some that have withstood time.

00:18:31.920 | You have to be able to get below their center of gravity

00:18:36.440 | 'cause you have to be able to rotate them

00:18:38.960 | around their center of gravity.

00:18:40.720 | And then the other one is,

00:18:43.040 | that was always a principle when I was growing up

00:18:45.200 | and I didn't change until later on in my career

00:18:47.360 | was you have to be able to pull.

00:18:50.080 | You need to be able to pull to get them off balance.

00:18:53.840 | But when you think about that statement as a whole,

00:18:56.320 | it ended with, they have to be off balance.

00:18:59.560 | I don't need to pull to get you off balance.

00:19:01.920 | I just need you off balance.

00:19:04.040 | And when you think about it that way,

00:19:05.560 | it allows you to open up the doors to,

00:19:08.560 | what do I need to do to get you off balance?

00:19:11.080 | I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake,

00:19:14.360 | and you could put yourself

00:19:15.720 | in your own off balance state, right?

00:19:18.960 | When you think about people who wrestle, right?

00:19:22.200 | If I fake shoot, it causes you to over lean forward,

00:19:25.480 | which means you're off balance.

00:19:27.320 | There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing.

00:19:29.400 | I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity

00:19:32.480 | and the door open for an attack.

00:19:34.680 | - And that off balance could be very subtle.

00:19:36.760 | - Could be very subtle.

00:19:38.240 | And the better you get and the more skills you get,

00:19:41.280 | the less subtle it is.

00:19:42.640 | - So we should also mention

00:19:45.920 | that there is something called forward throws,

00:19:48.520 | where you throw the person,

00:19:51.360 | they're gonna fly facing forward,

00:19:54.840 | they're gonna fly forward.

00:19:56.840 | And then backward throw, they're gonna fly back.

00:20:00.080 | - Yep.

00:20:00.920 | And then there's lateral,

00:20:02.440 | they actually go sideways over, like a cartwheel almost.

00:20:05.680 | - Okay, so the forward throws,

00:20:07.840 | there's the one we've been talking about,

00:20:09.440 | which is a Senagi,

00:20:10.840 | and there's a bunch of different variants,

00:20:12.320 | Ippon, Marote, Senagi.

00:20:14.280 | There's drop and there's standing versions of them.

00:20:16.920 | And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it,

00:20:20.560 | but that's like as clean as getting your center of gravity

00:20:25.160 | under theirs as it gets.

00:20:27.800 | And then the rest is just gripping variations.

00:20:30.120 | - Yep.

00:20:30.960 | - I guess it's all gripping variations

00:20:32.160 | on all of these throws.

00:20:33.320 | And then there is, in terms of forward throws,

00:20:38.960 | there's the other big one in competition is Uchimata,

00:20:44.640 | which is, I don't know, we can try to explain that one,

00:20:49.120 | but it ends up being where one,

00:20:52.880 | you're standing on just one of your feet,

00:20:55.240 | and the other one is up in the air.

00:20:57.000 | And I don't know if you put in that same category,

00:20:59.400 | Hara-Goshi, like those kinds of throws

00:21:02.840 | where you're kind of a little bit single-footed.

00:21:05.920 | - Yeah, so there's two-footed techniques

00:21:07.840 | and then there's single-footed.

00:21:08.960 | - Single-footed, yeah.

00:21:09.800 | Ogoshi, where it's like you're doing a mix

00:21:13.640 | between the Uchimata and the Seinagi.

00:21:16.360 | - Yeah.

00:21:17.200 | - It's a hug.

00:21:18.080 | You hug a person and then you turn your hips around

00:21:21.480 | such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.

00:21:24.480 | - When it comes to forward throw,

00:21:25.840 | there's, regardless of the name of the throw

00:21:29.520 | or the gripping variation that you're using,

00:21:32.760 | the whole principle is how do I get this person

00:21:35.080 | to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back?

00:21:38.960 | The more of a forward roll I can get,

00:21:42.600 | the bigger the score.

00:21:43.520 | If I get a quarter of a turn

00:21:46.120 | where you land on your side

00:21:47.280 | and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.

00:21:50.080 | - Yeah.

00:21:50.920 | - But they all require me to get you

00:21:53.280 | to do that forward rolling action.

00:21:55.160 | - So just if we think of one person,

00:21:56.760 | if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll

00:22:00.840 | and their back nicely rolls over the ground,

00:22:03.080 | you're trying to do the exact same thing

00:22:04.600 | with you connected to them.

00:22:06.000 | - Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth,

00:22:08.480 | it's probably not a full score.

00:22:10.080 | It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact.

00:22:13.960 | Right, so if you think of a drop Seinagi,

00:22:16.920 | if I'm moving too slow and you still roll

00:22:20.840 | over your shoulders and there's no direct impact,

00:22:23.360 | it's only a half score.

00:22:24.840 | - Right.

00:22:25.680 | - They want the force.

00:22:27.080 | - The force, the violence is good.

00:22:30.040 | Okay, so then in terms of backward throws,

00:22:35.040 | the traditional ones,

00:22:37.120 | there's stuff where you trip them from outside their body,

00:22:42.120 | like Osotogari, it's a trip where you hook your leg

00:22:46.720 | onto their leg and you trip them,

00:22:49.040 | but your hook goes outside of their legs.

00:22:52.000 | And then there's the trips from inside their body.

00:22:55.680 | There's one foot is called Kuchigari

00:22:58.960 | and then the other is Oshigari, doesn't matter.

00:23:01.720 | The most important thing is outside and inside.

00:23:05.960 | And then there's like,

00:23:07.280 | I don't even know how you throw them sideways

00:23:08.920 | except foot sweeps.

00:23:09.800 | And then there's the foot sweeps where you can sweep

00:23:13.120 | one of their legs from out of them

00:23:14.920 | or both their legs at the same time.

00:23:17.180 | And like we were talking about this kind of is

00:23:20.440 | when timed perfectly, it's effortless for everybody involved

00:23:24.720 | and the ending, like you said,

00:23:28.040 | is big, dramatic and violent.

00:23:30.000 | - Yeah.

00:23:31.560 | - Is there other kind of, oh yeah.

00:23:33.360 | There's a sacrifice techniques.

00:23:35.120 | - Yep.

00:23:36.560 | - There's a bunch of them and that ultimately

00:23:39.000 | the variations have to do with gripping,

00:23:41.960 | but you're basically you, the attacker fall onto your back,

00:23:46.160 | sticking your legs somewhere onto their body,

00:23:50.000 | which is like this fulcrum over which they fly

00:23:52.720 | and do that same kind of role that you mentioned.

00:23:54.640 | - You basically sacrifice your back to the mat

00:23:56.960 | in order to throw them into that circular pattern

00:24:00.120 | so they hit their back.

00:24:01.640 | Sometimes we use a foot, sometimes we don't.

00:24:04.080 | And so we should probably say,

00:24:06.560 | it's okay for you to go onto your back

00:24:09.480 | as long as you're clearly demonstrating control

00:24:12.280 | over the other person's body.

00:24:14.120 | - Correct, you can't go to your back in the same direction

00:24:18.040 | that your opponent is trying to put you to your back.

00:24:22.200 | You have to go the other way

00:24:23.520 | or you have to initiate you going to your own back.

00:24:28.000 | - Right.

00:24:29.280 | Like clearly.

00:24:30.360 | And then there's all the counters

00:24:33.640 | which almost kind of have a whole group of their own,

00:24:37.480 | even though they have echoes of the same types of techniques,

00:24:41.080 | it seems like they're their own whole thing.

00:24:43.240 | - Yeah, but they follow the same principles.

00:24:45.320 | It's just most counters.

00:24:47.700 | Like if you wanted to counter an uchi mata, for example,

00:24:51.920 | you're trying to throw me in a somersault

00:24:54.560 | over my right shoulder.

00:24:56.600 | Therefore, I would counter you

00:24:58.420 | by throwing you over your left shoulder.

00:25:01.800 | It goes in the opposite shoulder direction,

00:25:03.800 | but in the same somersault idea.

00:25:06.960 | - And there used to be,

00:25:08.400 | I already at this point forget the years,

00:25:10.320 | but it might be before the 2012 Olympics,

00:25:13.600 | where they banned,

00:25:14.960 | you used to be allowed to grab legs

00:25:17.320 | in the same way you do in wrestling.

00:25:19.480 | So you have basically all the techniques

00:25:21.440 | you would have in wrestling available to you

00:25:24.800 | if you would like.

00:25:26.680 | It's just that some of the techniques in wrestling

00:25:28.920 | are not that effective for getting your opponent

00:25:31.480 | to their back.

00:25:32.800 | Wrestlers wanna take the other person down

00:25:34.720 | in any way possible and have control.

00:25:36.880 | Judo wants to take you down, like we said,

00:25:38.760 | in a big fashion where your back slams on the ground.

00:25:41.400 | - Yeah, it has to be to the back.

00:25:42.760 | A lot of wrestling takedowns happen

00:25:44.800 | because they get behind them and then they part their out.

00:25:49.040 | - Yeah, so, but judo banned all touching of the legs,

00:25:54.040 | which is very dramatic change at the sport.

00:25:57.200 | - Right after 2012.

00:25:59.040 | - It was after 2012?

00:25:59.960 | - In 2012, so 2008, I fought the games

00:26:03.120 | and everything was free.

00:26:05.280 | In 2012, we could only touch the legs

00:26:07.920 | as a defensive action or in response to an attack.

00:26:12.920 | So I could try to throw you with a normal throw.

00:26:17.680 | And then when you try to counter, I could grab your leg.

00:26:20.400 | - Right, so there-

00:26:22.520 | - Had to be a secondary technique.

00:26:24.200 | - And didn't they disqualify on a first offense?

00:26:29.200 | First offense was a direct disqualification,

00:26:31.320 | which happened at the 2012 games to the 57 Brazilian

00:26:35.920 | who won in 16.

00:26:37.520 | She was DQ'd in I think the quarters.

00:26:40.160 | And it was like, I wouldn't say it was blatant

00:26:43.960 | as much as I don't think the act changed the outcome

00:26:48.200 | of the match had they not disqualified her.

00:26:50.000 | - So that's not that dramatic.

00:26:51.360 | And by the way, you say 57,

00:26:53.320 | that refers to weight divisions and that's in kilograms.

00:26:56.560 | And kilograms is the measure of weight

00:26:58.760 | that the rest of the world uses and the United States does not.

00:27:01.760 | And there's, we should say the divisions for guys,

00:27:07.280 | I don't know what the 70, I don't know what the lower level.

00:27:11.080 | 60, 66, 73, 81, 90, 100 and heavyweight,

00:27:16.080 | which has no ceiling.

00:27:19.160 | - No ceiling.

00:27:20.000 | - It's an important distinction.

00:27:22.120 | - Yeah, it is an important distinction.

00:27:24.260 | And you competed most of your career

00:27:28.680 | at 81 kilograms.

00:27:30.600 | - All of it.

00:27:31.440 | - You never did 73.

00:27:33.120 | - I never did 73.

00:27:34.640 | - But you had to cut big for 81 anyway,

00:27:36.840 | especially big.

00:27:37.680 | - Towards the end of my career, yeah.

00:27:39.720 | - Okay.

00:27:40.560 | - I overly grew into the division.

00:27:43.200 | - What's, I'm trying to remember,

00:27:45.520 | is it about 180 pounds?

00:27:47.640 | - 178.6, I think.

00:27:49.720 | - And you have to weigh in with the gi.

00:27:52.240 | - No, nothing.

00:27:53.680 | You're not allowed to wear anything

00:27:54.880 | except for your underwear.

00:27:55.880 | - That's right. - Weigh in.

00:27:56.720 | - Confusing you just, that's right.

00:27:58.040 | That's right, that's right.

00:27:58.920 | That's which is very nice.

00:28:00.240 | Okay, so we, would you say we covered

00:28:04.760 | most of the throws or no?

00:28:06.360 | So there's the forward and the backward,

00:28:10.040 | there's the sacrifice throws and the counters.

00:28:12.720 | - Yeah.

00:28:13.560 | - And then there's the leg grabs.

00:28:15.320 | And we should say for the leg grabs

00:28:16.680 | that were effective, it's like the big pickups

00:28:20.520 | where you just kind of pick them up

00:28:21.920 | and try to figure out once they're in the air

00:28:24.160 | what the heck to do with their body

00:28:25.560 | to get them to the ground.

00:28:26.840 | You just kind of figure it out as you go.

00:28:28.760 | - I think the really nice one that was to me heartbreaking

00:28:32.480 | is the fantasy go is, I guess what's called

00:28:35.320 | a fireman's carry, which is, you know,

00:28:39.640 | it does lead to judo-like beautiful throws.

00:28:42.920 | And the fact that that was gone is that one

00:28:46.200 | I missed a little bit, but then a bunch of people,

00:28:48.680 | I guess, came up with the variance

00:28:50.640 | where you don't need to grab the leg.

00:28:52.800 | - It's definitely not as effective

00:28:55.240 | as being able to grab it, but I'm also on the side

00:28:59.320 | of the fence having competed in all three.

00:29:02.120 | It was definitely better for the sport

00:29:04.320 | to remove it as a whole.

00:29:07.280 | - It's probably good to cover sort of the whole spectrum

00:29:09.520 | of rules of judo is there's groundwork.

00:29:12.480 | So there's, you do all this stuff on the feet

00:29:15.200 | where you're trying to murder each other

00:29:16.720 | with a giant throw, but then, you know,

00:29:19.200 | if the throw doesn't succeed, you go to the ground

00:29:22.120 | and you stay on the ground for some amount of time,

00:29:24.320 | like short amount of time, you have to move quickly.

00:29:26.640 | You have to be attacking.

00:29:28.000 | And two of the ways you can win is similar

00:29:31.480 | to people who do jiu-jitsu is you can submit them,

00:29:34.240 | chokes, arm breaks, all that kind of stuff, no foot locks.

00:29:39.360 | And you can also pin them, which is get around their legs.

00:29:44.360 | And this is very, no, this is not like wrestling.

00:29:48.040 | You have to actually get around their legs

00:29:50.400 | and pin them in what in jiu-jitsu is called

00:29:53.520 | side control mount, all kinds of ways

00:29:55.480 | that doesn't involve their legs.

00:29:57.320 | - Yeah, and then you pin them for like,

00:29:58.640 | whatever, 20 seconds, 25 seconds.

00:30:00.360 | - Yeah, 20 seconds now.

00:30:01.920 | I think the distinction is their back

00:30:04.720 | has to be facing the mat.

00:30:06.600 | You have to be past their legs

00:30:08.240 | and your chest has to be on the same plane as theirs.

00:30:11.440 | - Yeah.

00:30:12.280 | - So it doesn't have to necessarily be on top,

00:30:14.200 | but it has to be on the same plane.

00:30:16.000 | - Yeah.

00:30:16.840 | And all of this is, I think, different sports

00:30:20.080 | have different versions of this,

00:30:21.300 | but it's like an approximation

00:30:23.640 | of what dominance looks like.

00:30:25.080 | - Yeah.

00:30:25.920 | - So pin in wrestling is dominating your opponent.

00:30:29.320 | Presumably, if you were in a street fight,

00:30:31.340 | that position allows you to then do a lot of damage.

00:30:34.200 | Obviously, submissions is dominance

00:30:35.880 | 'cause you're breaking their arm

00:30:37.040 | or choking them to unconscious.

00:30:40.520 | And then obviously the throw,

00:30:42.500 | which is not often talked about,

00:30:44.780 | but like if you talk about a street fight situation,

00:30:47.920 | a throw is like the best way to murder somebody.

00:30:51.680 | Like this could end anyone's life.

00:30:54.400 | - Yes.

00:30:55.380 | - It's terrifying, actually.

00:30:56.840 | So, okay, so these are all elements of dominance.

00:30:59.420 | So going back to set of principles,

00:31:03.100 | you were mentioning getting your center of mass under theirs,

00:31:06.900 | which I think applies for type of,

00:31:08.940 | like the forward Senage throws.

00:31:11.620 | Is there other stuff?

00:31:13.280 | Also, you mentioned off-balance.

00:31:16.020 | - Yep, there's the off-balance one,

00:31:17.760 | where you can either pull to get an off-balance

00:31:21.360 | or you can give way to the force,

00:31:24.140 | which can also lead to an off-balance.

00:31:26.080 | You can amplify somebody's force.

00:31:30.640 | So for example, if you push me,

00:31:34.540 | you expect a certain reaction that you're ready for.

00:31:39.540 | But if you push me and I pull you,

00:31:42.260 | now you didn't expect that much force coming out of you.

00:31:44.860 | Therefore, you're off-balance.

00:31:47.520 | - The thing that's distinctly recognizable about judo

00:31:50.580 | is like when done at the highest level,

00:31:53.700 | like it seems effortless when the big throw happens.

00:31:59.680 | - Yeah.

00:32:00.520 | - Like that's just, it doesn't,

00:32:01.700 | there is no other sport like it in the combat sports

00:32:04.560 | where it's like when the timing is right,

00:32:07.740 | everything just is perfect.

00:32:09.280 | I think you get that in MMA and boxing sometimes

00:32:13.320 | when there's a perfect strike.

00:32:15.960 | Just like what they, but it's not just like a hard hit.

00:32:19.760 | It's like, it's almost like the,

00:32:22.000 | with Conor McGregor and Aldo, for example,

00:32:24.200 | when you just catch him just right.

00:32:25.600 | - Just right.

00:32:26.560 | - And that--

00:32:27.400 | - He didn't look like he hit him that hard,

00:32:28.520 | but he hit him just right.

00:32:29.360 | - Yeah, and like you get to see this all the time in judo.

00:32:33.040 | It's fascinating.

00:32:34.160 | And so the beginning part of that

00:32:36.440 | is because there's a jacket,

00:32:38.400 | there's also this whole thing that you're master of,

00:32:40.880 | which is like, which is gripping.

00:32:42.840 | - Yeah.

00:32:43.680 | - Is there something you can say about,

00:32:46.280 | are there some fundamental principles of gripping

00:32:48.920 | that you can speak to?

00:32:50.280 | Like what the hell is gripping?

00:32:52.240 | - Gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent

00:32:56.080 | in such a way where you have the ability to be offensive

00:32:59.640 | and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time.

00:33:03.800 | And it's a distinction because I can hold you

00:33:08.960 | in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive,

00:33:13.320 | but if you can take a purely defensive grip

00:33:16.080 | and then I can't be offensive, we are no longer gripping.

00:33:19.320 | We are holding each other.

00:33:20.640 | - Right.

00:33:22.640 | - Right, so like that would be the act of being able to grip

00:33:26.440 | is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you,

00:33:31.000 | and I can play both offense and defense at the same time

00:33:34.440 | where you can only play defense.

00:33:37.000 | - So Donahart talks about like jiu-jitsu that way,

00:33:40.280 | and not that way,

00:33:41.120 | maybe you can see if there's a distinction.

00:33:43.560 | So you have a set of weapons,

00:33:45.440 | the other person has a set of weapons.

00:33:47.400 | You wanna sort of maximize the use of your weapons

00:33:50.680 | and shut down the set of--

00:33:52.800 | - Weapons that they have.

00:33:53.640 | - That they have.

00:33:54.760 | Do you see gripping the same way on the feet?

00:33:57.720 | - I do if we wanna include body positioning

00:34:00.800 | with our gripping.

00:34:01.760 | - Okay.

00:34:03.880 | - Because I can give you any grip you want

00:34:05.080 | and you still can't throw me

00:34:06.440 | 'cause I can put myself in a position

00:34:08.760 | that nullifies your ability to use those grips

00:34:11.360 | in a successful way.

00:34:13.120 | - And those, would you say the hips are critical to that

00:34:16.200 | or is it everything?

00:34:17.120 | - Hips, shoulders, chin position, head position,

00:34:20.880 | you know, the angle of your foot.

00:34:22.560 | - Yeah.

00:34:23.400 | - Yeah, where you lean.

00:34:24.640 | - Wow, okay.

00:34:25.680 | And so, and there's a bunch of places you can grip,

00:34:28.960 | obviously, if people like kind of think of a jacket,

00:34:31.800 | like there's a bunch of places you can grip

00:34:33.960 | that are interesting.

00:34:35.080 | So you can grip on the collar,

00:34:37.300 | you can grip on the sleeves,

00:34:39.000 | you can grip like the elbow joint.

00:34:41.920 | And then you could do those badass,

00:34:44.240 | like Eastern European, Georgian,

00:34:47.320 | over the back. - Grips over the back,

00:34:48.440 | over the opposite sides of the heads.

00:34:50.080 | - Yeah.

00:34:50.920 | - The Koreans that grab on one side around the head

00:34:53.080 | with their hands together.

00:34:54.220 | - Yeah.

00:34:55.060 | There's something really nice about just those,

00:34:57.520 | like, I mean, especially Georgians.

00:34:59.360 | - Just throwing that hand, yeah.

00:35:00.680 | - Just over the person and just,

00:35:02.760 | if you're not actually gripping a belt or anything,

00:35:05.680 | you're gripping just the entirety of like,

00:35:08.340 | as opposed to being all nice,

00:35:09.660 | I'm gonna grab this part of the jacket,

00:35:11.220 | this part of the jacket.

00:35:12.460 | You're just like taking the whole fucking jacket

00:35:15.780 | and just launching somebody.

00:35:17.900 | - For those people that can't picture judo,

00:35:21.260 | think about it in like,

00:35:23.100 | if you understood like what a boxing match looks like,

00:35:26.300 | and you thought about that as like traditional gripping,

00:35:29.140 | when you throw like a Russian grip over the back,

00:35:31.980 | that's more like a hockey fight.

00:35:33.240 | Like I'm just grabbing you

00:35:34.860 | and we're just gonna be throwing punches left and right.

00:35:38.060 | 'Cause when we have that grip, somebody has to get thrown.

00:35:41.640 | - Yeah.

00:35:42.480 | - There's no, we don't walk around with this grip.

00:35:44.960 | It's go time once somebody throws it.

00:35:47.960 | - To me as a fan and sort of amateur practitioner,

00:35:52.100 | there's two styles of Olympic level judo.

00:35:55.940 | One is where you're trying not to get thrown.

00:35:59.580 | And the other is where you're trying to throw.

00:36:04.140 | More specifically, when you're trying not to get thrown,

00:36:06.780 | there's like the strategy that you're using gripping

00:36:09.180 | to nullify their offense and all those kinds of stuff.

00:36:13.180 | You're being very clever and strategic

00:36:14.980 | and all that maybe using conditioning.

00:36:17.420 | And then there's people who just like step in the pocket

00:36:21.300 | and they almost don't care if they're getting thrown

00:36:23.980 | 'cause they have the confidence

00:36:24.980 | that they're gonna throw first.

00:36:26.600 | - Yeah.

00:36:27.440 | - And those, like there's a clear distinction

00:36:29.100 | between the people that do one or the other.

00:36:31.340 | And I think both can be done extremely successfully

00:36:35.260 | at the highest level.

00:36:36.460 | It's just like, obviously you admire the people

00:36:38.640 | that step in the pocket.

00:36:40.380 | - And I think when you look at the people who do judo

00:36:43.380 | the best, like if we wanna talk about like the top 10%

00:36:49.260 | of the people who would compete at the games,

00:36:52.060 | they do both and they do both really well,

00:36:55.860 | but they favor one.

00:36:58.420 | Because if you look at a player like

00:37:01.220 | Lutep Attiliani of Georgia, for example,

00:37:05.180 | there's a guy that stands in the pocket,

00:37:07.580 | but we can find numerous occasions

00:37:09.580 | where he's hustled some people

00:37:11.820 | for like a short period of time to get out of scenarios,

00:37:15.160 | to elongate the match, to make somebody tired.

00:37:19.060 | So you want both sides of the coin,

00:37:21.340 | but you better pick the one that,

00:37:23.500 | 80% of your strategy is gonna be built around.

00:37:27.140 | - Sorry for the romantic question,

00:37:28.500 | but I talked to Dan Gable and he always looked

00:37:32.500 | to the Russians as the artists in wrestling.

00:37:37.300 | And he always wanted to be an artist,

00:37:39.500 | but I think he's known for being that sort of guts,

00:37:44.180 | aggression, mental toughness guy,

00:37:46.100 | but he always was drawn to the artistry of wrestling.

00:37:49.100 | It's hard to know when you just watch you

00:37:52.440 | 'cause it looks like you're aggressive

00:37:54.020 | and you got the guts and the mental toughness,

00:37:56.340 | but there's also obviously a mastery of technique.

00:37:58.700 | Which would you lean towards in terms of what accounts

00:38:02.460 | for your success and just the way you approach judo?

00:38:05.180 | Is it the guts, the aggression, the mental toughness,

00:38:09.140 | or is it the mastery of technique, the artistry?

00:38:15.020 | - Mine would be my aggressiveness

00:38:17.580 | if I'm gonna pick those two areas.

00:38:20.360 | But I think there's a third area in there

00:38:25.060 | that I would put myself in where I'm more of a strategist.

00:38:28.200 | I look at all of my opponents

00:38:31.380 | and all I ever see is their faults.

00:38:34.860 | And the way I do judo is built around their faults.

00:38:37.920 | And it's just, I put myself in scenarios

00:38:42.980 | where I don't even know how I'm gonna win.

00:38:45.980 | But what I've done in those scenarios is

00:38:48.820 | I've made it very difficult for you to win.

00:38:53.260 | And then I figure out the rest as I go.

00:38:55.260 | - Like how do you study an opponent?

00:38:59.180 | Are there bins you can put them in?

00:39:00.940 | Like there's a lefty and a righty or this kind of stuff.

00:39:04.660 | How many bins are there in judo in your mind

00:39:06.860 | that you put your opponents in?

00:39:09.900 | - Yeah, there's probably about 20.

00:39:11.820 | There's like certain players who you could put

00:39:15.460 | in a category of like, they're only good for the first,

00:39:19.420 | you know, two thirds of the match.

00:39:21.740 | After that, they turn into a different player

00:39:23.860 | where they're either falling into a sense of panic

00:39:27.420 | or uncertainty.

00:39:28.780 | And you can, if you were to take a video clip of,

00:39:32.540 | let's say Church's Philly, right?

00:39:33.820 | They got George and I beat in the Olympic semi.

00:39:37.540 | He's somebody that would beat you

00:39:39.100 | in the first three minutes.

00:39:40.880 | And if you clipped out all of his matches

00:39:43.420 | and you only watched the first three minutes of every match,

00:39:47.740 | you would see one style.

00:39:49.460 | If you found all the matches where he got taken

00:39:51.940 | into the last minute and he wasn't winning by a major score,

00:39:56.940 | you would see a completely different fighter.

00:39:59.220 | And so going into like my Olympic semi,

00:40:02.420 | I put him into that category of like,

00:40:04.900 | I want to get to this guy 'cause this guy is beatable.

00:40:07.700 | The trick is how do you get there?

00:40:10.820 | - How do you get there?

00:40:11.660 | And by the way, we're talking about the 2016 Olympics

00:40:14.620 | where you won the silver medal.

00:40:15.900 | You were part of three different Olympics.

00:40:18.580 | But the cardio aspect of it,

00:40:22.340 | have you faced exhaustion often in your matches

00:40:26.780 | where you have to go deep and go like past?

00:40:29.180 | - Yeah, but that's not from the judo side of it.

00:40:32.940 | That's from like, I did a very bad job of making weight.

00:40:35.940 | - It's always the weight cut?

00:40:37.060 | - Yeah, it's always the weight cut.

00:40:39.500 | And I think people really struggle with that.

00:40:43.500 | They blame cardio and training and everything else.

00:40:46.340 | But when it really comes down to it,

00:40:48.500 | like we train for an hour and a half,

00:40:49.860 | two hours, twice a day.

00:40:51.900 | How are you tired after five minutes?

00:40:54.100 | - Right.

00:40:54.940 | - Right, it becomes into a mental struggle,

00:40:56.580 | your anxiety, your stress, your lack of belief in yourself.

00:41:01.060 | Or in my case, sometimes it's poor nutrition.

00:41:04.660 | Sometimes I had one too many McDonald's meals.

00:41:06.700 | It just, it happens.

00:41:08.740 | - Okay, so let's talk about weight cutting real quick.

00:41:11.780 | So I've seen weight cutting break

00:41:16.740 | some of the toughest fighters, wrestlers, grapplers ever,

00:41:20.380 | like burnout break,

00:41:22.040 | like where they makes you wanna quit the sport.

00:41:25.180 | So this is what people don't often talk about,

00:41:27.820 | but mentally it's one of the hardest things,

00:41:29.980 | especially when you're doing it kind of wrong

00:41:32.820 | because it becomes a mental war.

00:41:35.000 | So you competed, like you said,

00:41:37.500 | your whole career at 81 kilograms.

00:41:40.240 | You walked around at?

00:41:41.640 | - 88, 89.

00:41:44.220 | - So about 15 pounds, sometimes 20 pounds over that.

00:41:49.220 | - Give or take.

00:41:51.500 | - And so what was your process like mentally and physically?

00:41:56.500 | First of all, maybe you can comment on

00:41:58.180 | when the weigh-ins are relative to the matches.

00:42:00.940 | And then what was your process like leading,

00:42:02.720 | like a week ahead, a day ahead, an hour ahead,

00:42:06.580 | minutes ahead of the weigh-in?

00:42:09.580 | - Man, everyone varies tremendously

00:42:13.540 | because we're not like most sports

00:42:16.260 | because you're dropped off in foreign countries

00:42:18.540 | with who knows what, right?

00:42:20.740 | Some places have saunas, some places have treadmills.

00:42:23.660 | I went to a place one time in China in the middle of winter

00:42:28.880 | where the roads were frozen with ice

00:42:31.260 | and we had to use our hotel rooms

00:42:32.980 | because you couldn't sweat outside 'cause it was too cold.

00:42:38.500 | And every one of my Olympics, the weight cut was different

00:42:41.580 | just given my mass.

00:42:42.900 | When I went to 2008, I was probably like 82, 83 kilos

00:42:47.900 | walking around, so weight cutting wasn't a thing for me.

00:42:52.020 | In London, we actually weighed in the morning of.

00:42:56.140 | So weigh-ins were at like 6 a.m.

00:42:58.340 | And the Olympics were always beneficial to me

00:43:00.980 | because they actually don't start until like 10 or 11.

00:43:04.220 | So you actually were able to recover.

00:43:07.260 | Where on the circuit, you would weigh in at 6 a.m.

00:43:10.060 | and the competition started at 8 a.m.

00:43:12.500 | It's like, well, I was cutting weight at 5 a.m.

00:43:15.180 | - And most of it, for people who are not familiar,

00:43:17.500 | but maybe you can also correct me,

00:43:19.340 | most of it, you're really just getting the water

00:43:21.860 | out of your system.

00:43:22.700 | It was water- - At that point, yeah.

00:43:25.220 | - Like 24 hours before even?

00:43:27.700 | So are you- - Like an hour before.

00:43:29.860 | - But yeah, but like leading up to it.

00:43:31.780 | And have you eaten the day before?

00:43:36.140 | Do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system?

00:43:38.580 | - My weight cutting process was a little bit different

00:43:41.300 | than most people because I like to eat.

00:43:46.300 | I'm not the type of person that believes

00:43:51.020 | your athletic career is determined by your nutrition.

00:43:54.340 | - Right. - I don't believe that.

00:43:57.540 | I think some sports are built that way,

00:43:59.900 | but when it comes to combat sports,

00:44:01.860 | like your ability to knock somebody out

00:44:06.140 | has nothing to do with whether you had a cheeseburger

00:44:08.500 | or a salad.

00:44:09.980 | My ability to throw you is not determined by that.

00:44:12.220 | I may be able to perform better

00:44:13.820 | because I've eaten a certain way,

00:44:16.380 | but not enough to justify an entire diet change.

00:44:20.020 | Your body is built and my body is built

00:44:22.580 | to operate with certain things

00:44:24.100 | that I've had in my system for years.

00:44:26.620 | - Yeah, I think I'm with you,

00:44:28.780 | but I also believe that there's a mental aspect.

00:44:32.180 | So if you're surrounded by people

00:44:33.540 | that tell you diet matters,

00:44:35.460 | then if your diet is off,

00:44:37.220 | you're gonna believe you're going to be off

00:44:38.900 | because the people around you

00:44:39.980 | tell you your diet should be good.

00:44:41.660 | So yeah, I think it's the same,

00:44:45.060 | I've had an argument with Matthew Walker,

00:44:47.140 | who's a sleep scientist about sleep.

00:44:51.060 | And it's like, if you believe sleep is essential,

00:44:53.740 | it's essential to get eight hours of sleep

00:44:55.580 | every single night perfectly,

00:44:57.460 | then you're going to be very stressed

00:44:59.340 | when you don't get it.

00:45:00.300 | And then I think you will negatively affect,

00:45:02.540 | the stress will negatively affect your longevity

00:45:04.500 | in all kinds of aspects of your life.

00:45:06.540 | If you actually just learn to truly listen to your body,

00:45:09.380 | become a scientist for your own body with sleep and food,

00:45:12.140 | it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night

00:45:15.180 | or whatever, but it might be something else.

00:45:17.260 | And probably diet, or I remember when I was meeting

00:45:19.940 | with the USOC nutritionist after London,

00:45:23.700 | it was probably around 2014, I think.

00:45:28.700 | And when we had our team meeting

00:45:31.140 | at the beginning of the year and I was talking to him,

00:45:33.660 | he was talking about the nutrition plans

00:45:35.760 | that he could put us on.

00:45:37.100 | And I was like, timeout, I've done the USOC thing,

00:45:40.020 | like I've done the couscous,

00:45:41.380 | I've done the lemon in my water, I go, I'm full of shit.

00:45:45.460 | - The couscous?

00:45:46.580 | - Yeah. - The couscous?

00:45:47.900 | Oh boy.

00:45:48.740 | - Like there was just,

00:45:49.580 | 'cause there's like a cookie cutter plan, right?

00:45:51.580 | And I was like, look, here's what I want you to do.

00:45:54.260 | I go, I'll listen to you, but you're gonna walk

00:45:57.060 | into the 7-Eleven across the street from the USOC.

00:45:59.940 | And if you can't buy it in that 7-Eleven,

00:46:02.340 | it's not on my plan.

00:46:03.580 | - Right.

00:46:04.500 | - I go, because I go to places where the only thing

00:46:07.540 | I can eat is Pringles and a Snickers bar.

00:46:10.540 | I've done that.

00:46:11.380 | Like I've flown to Azerbaijan,

00:46:13.360 | stayed in a hotel where the restaurant is closed,

00:46:16.340 | USA Judo hasn't paid for the meal plan.

00:46:18.900 | And the only thing that's available

00:46:20.500 | is the thing across the street.

00:46:22.020 | - So you were eating Pringles.

00:46:24.460 | - Before fighting a grand slam event while cutting 20 pounds.

00:46:26.940 | - And a Snickers bar.

00:46:28.380 | - Yeah.

00:46:29.780 | - I just, the visual of that, that's some like,

00:46:31.860 | that's some rocky shit.

00:46:33.020 | Okay.

00:46:33.840 | - Build me a nutrition plan, go for it.

00:46:35.220 | 'Cause I'm not paying my own way

00:46:37.380 | to travel with 14 days of food.

00:46:41.400 | - Right.

00:46:42.280 | I mean, that's one of the magic of your whole career

00:46:45.420 | and also Judo.

00:46:46.940 | I mean, I'm sorry to say, of course,

00:46:48.940 | you want athletes to be super rich

00:46:51.220 | and super well-funded from an athlete perspective

00:46:53.820 | and the sport to be popular and managed

00:46:56.660 | in an ultra competent way.

00:46:57.780 | But as a fan-

00:46:58.860 | - That's not reality.

00:46:59.860 | - But as a fan, it's fun to watch somebody like you

00:47:02.740 | who's exceptionally driven have to suffer

00:47:04.780 | in all of these different interesting ways.

00:47:07.340 | - But it's only suffering if you expect the other side.

00:47:12.340 | I don't expect it.

00:47:14.340 | I accept it for what it is,

00:47:16.260 | which is why I write off nutrition for athletes.

00:47:19.140 | 'Cause it can be done without it

00:47:20.540 | as long as, to what you said before,

00:47:22.820 | like you don't believe you need it.

00:47:25.660 | Some people believe they need it.

00:47:27.780 | - Getting your mind right is the most important thing.

00:47:31.340 | - You know what I believe I need?

00:47:32.500 | - What's that?

00:47:33.340 | - A Snickers bar when I'm tired.

00:47:34.980 | I want a little bit of sugar, makes me feel better.

00:47:37.480 | What do you want me to do?

00:47:39.820 | (laughing)

00:47:42.060 | - What are you gonna do?

00:47:43.700 | - Yeah, so I just love the visual

00:47:46.660 | of you eating a Snickers bar before-

00:47:47.500 | - But that's what became,

00:47:48.940 | but that became part of my nutrition plan.

00:47:51.260 | When the USOC guy wrote my nutrition plan,

00:47:54.140 | I was eating a burrito bowl with brown rice,

00:47:58.260 | white meat chicken, black beans, guacamole, cheese,

00:48:02.300 | two chocolate chip cookies, and a Diet Coke.

00:48:05.040 | - This is like Chipotle?

00:48:07.340 | - It was Boloco, but same concept.

00:48:08.980 | - Same concept.

00:48:10.100 | - Because it fed-

00:48:10.940 | - Two chocolate chip cookies.

00:48:12.140 | - 'Cause I needed the sugar.

00:48:13.340 | I was 88 kilos when I stepped on the scale at 6.3% body fat.

00:48:18.340 | Now I gotta make 81.

00:48:24.060 | - Six, what, really?

00:48:27.140 | - Yeah, and the USOC was like,

00:48:30.020 | "Hey, you can't fight 81 anymore, you have to fight 90s."

00:48:35.020 | And I go, "I'm already into the quad, I'm not changing."

00:48:39.980 | I go, "Build me a plan where I can do this,

00:48:42.940 | and now we have to have an acceptable weight cut.

00:48:45.500 | Like, it's just, what do you want me to do?

00:48:47.500 | I'm not the IJF, I can't just change the fact

00:48:50.020 | that it takes two years to qualify.

00:48:51.820 | I know where I'm at, I know what I have to go through,

00:48:54.980 | and I accept the consequences.

00:48:57.060 | It is what it is, what do you want me to do?

00:48:59.220 | - All right, so what was the process?

00:49:00.900 | I mean, can you speak to,

00:49:02.780 | so you wake up early in the morning,

00:49:05.140 | the day of the weigh-ins, a few hours before?

00:49:08.580 | - Technically, my weight cut never started

00:49:11.220 | until I got off a plane and to a hotel.

00:49:15.380 | - And how many hours?

00:49:17.100 | - Three days.

00:49:18.060 | - So it's a three-day cut.

00:49:20.700 | - It's a three-day cut.

00:49:21.540 | - Mentally, you're thinking of it that way.

00:49:23.140 | - Yeah. - And then you're still eating.

00:49:25.020 | - I eat every day.

00:49:26.140 | - And then like, what, do you load up on water maybe

00:49:28.900 | as you start and then? - Nope.

00:49:30.140 | - Or the water stops?

00:49:32.340 | - It is what it is.

00:49:33.340 | - So you just, I mean, it's a slow,

00:49:38.460 | you're not actually like sweating all three days, are you?

00:49:42.100 | But then it's like torture to sleep.

00:49:44.920 | - Part of the process.

00:49:47.720 | - Are you able to sleep?

00:49:50.380 | - Sometimes.

00:49:51.220 | It depends.

00:49:53.220 | - So you're dehydrated, further and further dehydrated

00:49:57.180 | with six, 7% body fat, trying to lose 10 pounds.

00:50:01.060 | - I even developed a way to drink water out of a bottle

00:50:03.940 | where I don't drink anything, but I feel like I have.

00:50:07.380 | - Swishing it, what's the?

00:50:08.580 | - No, so like I take like a bottle of water

00:50:10.660 | and like if we were to like to draw a line on it,

00:50:13.580 | I would tip it and I would go like this, I would go.

00:50:16.140 | And you would draw that line, but like,

00:50:25.300 | I've drank now water for 20 seconds or whatever it is.

00:50:28.000 | And I feel I get the fix. - And your brain was like,

00:50:31.260 | yeah.

00:50:32.100 | - Brain told me I got there, no problem.

00:50:35.860 | - That's amazing, man.

00:50:36.980 | You just, your mind's a very powerful tool.

00:50:40.020 | And the problem a lot of people have is

00:50:44.500 | they don't accept the reality of the situation.

00:50:48.360 | They bitch about the reality of the situation.

00:50:51.620 | I just.

00:50:52.460 | - First of all, you could always quit, right?

00:50:56.900 | - Yep.

00:50:57.740 | - So like you're not.

00:50:58.980 | - Never missed weight, never.

00:51:00.740 | - Never missed weight.

00:51:02.340 | - You can perform poorly, you can't miss weight.

00:51:04.940 | - Don't miss weight.

00:51:05.780 | - Don't miss weight because you can always win

00:51:10.140 | regardless of how bad the weight cut is.

00:51:12.620 | You can never win if you miss weight.

00:51:14.660 | - But your brain is also really good.

00:51:19.220 | Maybe not your brain, but I know my brain,

00:51:23.460 | I think most people's brains are good at generating,

00:51:26.060 | the more desperate things become,

00:51:27.660 | the better at generating excuses.

00:51:30.540 | So what were you doing with your mind

00:51:33.820 | that resulted in you never missing weight?

00:51:37.620 | - The plan.

00:51:39.060 | So like I said, like my weight cut would never start

00:51:43.580 | until I got to the hotel

00:51:45.540 | because I didn't check my weight the morning of,

00:51:48.740 | I didn't check my weight when I got there.

00:51:50.820 | I just, while I'm traveling,

00:51:52.860 | I'm doing things at like a minimal level,

00:51:55.920 | but I'm never not giving myself something I'm craving.

00:52:01.940 | If I'm thirsty, I'm drinking a Diet Coke.

00:52:04.820 | If I'm hungry, I'm buying a Snickers bar,

00:52:07.820 | I'm buying a sandwich, I am.

00:52:10.560 | And I accept the consequences when I get there.

00:52:14.220 | And then when I get there,

00:52:16.100 | if I step on the scale and it says 88 kilos,

00:52:19.060 | I instantaneously know exactly

00:52:21.260 | what it's gonna take to be 81.

00:52:22.940 | - And then you just follow like a robot,

00:52:24.820 | follow a very specific process.

00:52:26.460 | - Yep.

00:52:28.020 | - And then, I mean,

00:52:28.940 | 'cause there's a lot of seconds in three days,

00:52:31.740 | seconds and minutes,

00:52:32.700 | and you just,

00:52:33.780 | - I just know exactly what it takes from my body.

00:52:36.540 | I know exactly what a one hour gym workout

00:52:39.780 | wearing a sauna suit is gonna take.

00:52:43.080 | I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day one.

00:52:45.540 | And I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day three

00:52:48.020 | because they're not the same.

00:52:49.540 | So I can instantly look at a hotel,

00:52:52.280 | decide, is there a bathroom, sauna, gym,

00:52:55.740 | temperature of the gym,

00:52:57.420 | access to the gym and when it is,

00:52:59.900 | access to the judo mats, my training partners,

00:53:03.060 | the roads versus streetlights, the weather outside.

00:53:06.400 | I can take a look at that environment and say,

00:53:08.500 | this is my weight, this is weigh-ins.

00:53:11.060 | And instantaneously in my head,

00:53:12.740 | there's a plan to make weight.

00:53:14.260 | - And you have a sense of how much sweat adds up

00:53:17.100 | to 10 pounds, how much sweat plus time.

00:53:20.580 | - Yeah, and I make sure in my plan,

00:53:24.080 | all of my meals and how much water I need in between

00:53:27.380 | is allocated to still make weight

00:53:29.180 | 'cause you have to eat or drink during that time.

00:53:31.940 | - Are you incorporating like mental exhaustion into this?

00:53:36.740 | - That doesn't exist.

00:53:38.180 | - So it doesn't?

00:53:39.020 | - No, it doesn't.

00:53:39.840 | - Do you like meditate or, like what did the thoughts come,

00:53:42.540 | especially three days,

00:53:43.580 | we're not talking about four hours of suffering.

00:53:45.860 | - I'll tell you this--

00:53:46.700 | - This has broken some of the toughest people in the world.

00:53:48.980 | - The hardest weight cut I ever had, hardest one.

00:53:52.640 | I fought Pan Am games in 2015 in Edmonton, Canada

00:53:58.900 | on a Wednesday and I won.

00:54:03.060 | So I've made weight on Tuesday.

00:54:06.620 | I fought on Wednesday where I had to weigh in 5%

00:54:09.340 | of my weight class, so 84 kilos.

00:54:12.020 | On Wednesday, I was 84 kilos.

00:54:14.020 | I got on a plane on that Wednesday night

00:54:19.020 | and landed Friday morning in Sochi.

00:54:23.300 | Okay, so I've traveled now.

00:54:27.740 | I got on the scale, all my bags got lost, everything.

00:54:32.300 | So somehow I flew from there to here, no bags,

00:54:36.920 | and I threw all of my stuff in my bag.

00:54:40.660 | I wore sandals, one pair of pants,

00:54:43.980 | and a T-shirt on the plane 'cause I was like,

00:54:46.580 | I'm just tired, I just fought,

00:54:47.940 | like I don't even wanna carry it, I don't care.

00:54:50.460 | What are the odds that I get there and my bags are gone?

00:54:52.900 | - Yeah, very low.

00:54:54.380 | - Very low.

00:54:55.960 | Sure enough, it's gone.

00:54:57.700 | I get all the way to Sochi, I check into the hotel,

00:55:00.580 | there's one sauna.

00:55:01.620 | Guess what?

00:55:03.660 | You have to reserve it, and you're only allowed

00:55:06.540 | to reserve it for an X period of time.

00:55:08.540 | - Guess, get a small tangent.

00:55:10.380 | When you found out your bags are gone,

00:55:13.060 | this is something I'll often think about.

00:55:15.260 | There's like people that are helping you, right?

00:55:17.140 | Like there's a person at the airport who goes.

00:55:20.360 | - Yep, oops, just like that.

00:55:21.740 | - And then the person at the hotel who tells you

00:55:24.160 | that you have to reserve the sauna and looks at you

00:55:26.460 | like they don't care that you've been suffering.

00:55:30.860 | - Nope, they don't even understand why you need it.

00:55:33.780 | - Yeah, like why?

00:55:34.900 | Oh, you know, oh, this little kid reserved it

00:55:38.860 | for five hours or something to block it off.

00:55:41.540 | I'm sorry.

00:55:42.380 | Is there a frustration that gets in there?

00:55:45.100 | Are you-- - You just accept reality.

00:55:46.980 | Don't even hinder on like the things you can't change.

00:55:50.640 | 'Cause the second you get frustrated,

00:55:52.320 | the second you think you can change it,

00:55:55.780 | you'll harp on it and that breaks most men.

00:55:58.260 | - Yeah.

00:55:59.180 | - That like little thing in the back of their mind thinking,

00:56:02.500 | oh, like what if, there's no what if,

00:56:04.540 | like there's only right here, right now.

00:56:06.820 | If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

00:56:07.940 | Let's just quickly come up with a solution

00:56:10.100 | to fix the problem.

00:56:11.060 | - By the way, as another small tangent,

00:56:13.380 | all the greatest people I've interacted with

00:56:16.300 | at the highest level think like that.

00:56:19.300 | They don't linger on the, it's like the next thing.

00:56:22.460 | - Yeah.

00:56:23.300 | - Because like if you wanna do something great,

00:56:25.420 | hard stuff is gonna keep happening to you.

00:56:28.300 | And if you're gonna let that affect you,

00:56:30.460 | you're not ever gonna do the great thing.

00:56:32.100 | - Yeah. - It's fascinating actually.

00:56:33.700 | Like that's the one skill you have to learn.

00:56:36.540 | Elon Musk is great at this,

00:56:38.060 | constantly dealing with emergencies.

00:56:39.820 | Okay, this happened, what's the next step?

00:56:42.180 | - Yeah.

00:56:43.260 | Accept.

00:56:44.100 | - It's not that big of a deal.

00:56:44.920 | Every problem has a solution.

00:56:46.100 | - Yeah.

00:56:47.020 | Yeah.

00:56:47.860 | - And if I can't solve it, it's not my problem.

00:56:50.740 | You know what I mean?

00:56:51.580 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:56:52.420 | So what, so--

00:56:53.460 | - How'd you figure it out?

00:56:54.300 | - In sandals.

00:56:55.140 | - Get this, I get to the hotel.

00:56:57.340 | - Yeah.

00:56:58.180 | - I check in.

00:56:59.000 | I don't even know about the sauna yet.

00:57:00.700 | I go, I need to find a clothing store.

00:57:03.260 | I'm in the middle of Russia.

00:57:05.260 | I open up Google Maps and I'm like, sports store.

00:57:08.260 | I find an Adidas sports store

00:57:11.460 | in the middle of Sochi, Russia, right?

00:57:14.380 | I spend like $500 on like average sweats,

00:57:18.180 | no plastics, no nothing, and no running shoes

00:57:21.980 | 'cause they don't have any.

00:57:22.900 | - What's the temperature outside?

00:57:24.420 | Is it cold?

00:57:25.380 | - It was kind of like springish,

00:57:27.020 | so it wasn't cold, but it wasn't hot.

00:57:29.260 | - Yeah, so you still need a lot of layers, preferably.

00:57:32.680 | - You would need a lot of layers just to cut

00:57:34.660 | the amount of weight I'm about to tell you I have to cut

00:57:36.820 | because after I bought that stuff that next morning,

00:57:40.180 | and mind you, it's a Friday.

00:57:41.500 | It's a Friday morning.

00:57:42.860 | I go to the venue where we have the mats open to train

00:57:47.580 | and I step on the scale.

00:57:49.480 | And then Sagan Batar of Mongolia goes,

00:57:52.500 | oh, pretty good, you're almost there.

00:57:54.980 | And I go, no, I'm not.

00:57:59.220 | I stepped on the scale at almost 94 kilos.

00:58:01.580 | And I looked at him and I was like, I'm 81.

00:58:05.780 | And he went, good luck.

00:58:07.780 | - You're almost there.

00:58:10.820 | - Yeah, for the next weight class above.

00:58:15.780 | - This is on a Saturday.

00:58:18.580 | - Friday morning.

00:58:19.420 | - No, no, no, sorry.

00:58:20.260 | Friday morning, the competition is when?

00:58:22.780 | - Sunday.

00:58:23.620 | - Sunday.

00:58:24.440 | - I weigh in Sunday.

00:58:25.740 | - Okay.

00:58:26.580 | - And I'm like, holy crap.

00:58:29.020 | I throw on all my layers and there's one other person

00:58:32.700 | with me there, Kalita, who was my girlfriend at the time,

00:58:35.100 | now my wife, we start doing Judo.

00:58:38.020 | 'Cause I'm like, this will be the easiest way to knock off

00:58:40.780 | like three or four kilos.

00:58:42.940 | Well, it's cold, I have no gi,

00:58:45.780 | and I'm working out with a female.

00:58:48.660 | I can't get like overly physical

00:58:51.460 | to like really get my muscles going

00:58:53.060 | to really break that sweat

00:58:54.260 | because she has to compete in a day or two.

00:58:56.620 | She's not a training partner.

00:58:58.180 | You can't just use this person.

00:59:00.900 | I stepped on the scale, I was 91 kilos.

00:59:03.320 | So I went, well, I was a nice den, but like--

00:59:05.980 | - Have to work out.

00:59:06.820 | - Yeah, I go, that's not gonna fly.

00:59:09.640 | So sure enough, the clothes are now ruined.

00:59:13.020 | They didn't help me lose any extra weight.

00:59:15.980 | So I go back to the hotel and I start reserving the sauna.

00:59:19.740 | Do you know how hard it is to lose that much weight

00:59:21.540 | in a sauna by yourself?

00:59:24.180 | - So it's hard on many levels,

00:59:25.720 | but one of them is just mental.

00:59:27.280 | - Yeah.

00:59:28.340 | - You're sitting in heat.

00:59:29.900 | - Heat, and you're not doing anything.

00:59:32.360 | Like if there had been a bike

00:59:33.900 | or like the sauna was big enough to use a jump rope

00:59:36.540 | or you could do some sort of activity,

00:59:39.860 | but you just sit and you stew and you're there mentally.

00:59:44.340 | At one point during the weight cut,

00:59:46.900 | I actually had my mouth on the bottom part of the door

00:59:49.900 | where there was a little gap and my legs up on the benches

00:59:53.900 | and Kalita holding the door so that it didn't open

00:59:56.920 | so I couldn't open it,

00:59:58.160 | so that I could lean against that thing and have fresh air.

01:00:01.340 | 'Cause I was like, I was struggling.

01:00:03.540 | - And we're talking about, I mean, how many hours is that?

01:00:07.580 | - Hours, and then the thing is,

01:00:09.040 | is because you have to reserve the sauna,

01:00:11.380 | I can't even take like a 30 minute break

01:00:13.340 | because the sauna is not gonna be mine in an hour,

01:00:16.180 | which means you have to use the sauna and the heat

01:00:19.200 | for that allotted time period.

01:00:21.220 | And I hate saunas.

01:00:23.280 | That is always my last resort.

01:00:25.540 | I would use a bath, I will train, I will run,

01:00:28.300 | I will jump rope.

01:00:29.740 | Sauna is like, oh, let me do that for 10 minutes

01:00:32.820 | after all of my gym workouts,

01:00:34.900 | just to keep the sweat going while I stretch and cool down.

01:00:37.860 | That's never like the, hey, I'm gonna do five,

01:00:40.220 | 10 minute sessions because I need to lose two kilos.

01:00:43.500 | That is never the plan.

01:00:44.900 | - Yeah.

01:00:45.740 | But I mean, so I've done plenty of sauna for weight cuts

01:00:51.060 | to know, I can't even imagine what you went through.

01:00:54.100 | - Yeah.

01:00:54.940 | - The second slow down,

01:00:56.980 | that's one way to achieve immortality,

01:00:58.660 | is like the time slows down to like a stop

01:01:02.100 | and you're left alone with your thoughts.

01:01:04.540 | You can't do anything, just like you said, you can't.

01:01:06.500 | - There's nothing worse than sitting in that kind of heat

01:01:09.180 | for 10, 15 minutes.

01:01:11.220 | - Yeah.

01:01:12.060 | - And then you walk out and you're not even sweating.

01:01:15.260 | - Yeah.

01:01:16.100 | - There's nothing worse than that.

01:01:17.140 | - And if you like, and maybe if you weigh yourself,

01:01:19.460 | which you probably shouldn't be doing

01:01:20.860 | 'cause it'll break you.

01:01:21.780 | - Yep.

01:01:22.620 | - You haven't lost anything.

01:01:23.500 | - Yep.

01:01:24.340 | And I was weighing myself every time

01:01:26.900 | 'cause I only get breaks when I was hitting weight allotments

01:01:31.420 | and so if I could lose 0.3 in 10 minutes,

01:01:34.300 | I'd give myself a break, but I had to hit certain numbers

01:01:37.660 | 'cause I only have the sauna for a certain amount of time.

01:01:40.300 | And I remember one time I went downstairs

01:01:42.540 | to get my key to the sauna and the Japanese team

01:01:45.220 | had reserved it and took it from me

01:01:46.980 | because the guy didn't put my name on the list

01:01:49.340 | when I called down to get the sauna.

01:01:51.100 | So I lost an entire session that I had to get made up

01:01:54.100 | towards the later part of the day

01:01:55.540 | 'cause I still had no running shoes.

01:01:57.900 | And then sure enough, my bags show up 30 minutes

01:02:01.380 | after weigh-ins.

01:02:02.280 | Great.

01:02:04.980 | - That's like the universe is kind of giving you

01:02:07.460 | a little wink there.

01:02:08.580 | - Yep.

01:02:09.420 | - I think like, 'cause so few people do this weight cut

01:02:15.060 | at this high of a level, people don't often realize

01:02:18.340 | 'cause people get a sense of how hard it is

01:02:20.020 | to run 200 miles in a desert.

01:02:22.060 | 'Cause they go outside here in Texas,

01:02:25.580 | you can run five miles, oh, it's hard.

01:02:27.620 | But like the weight cut is really,

01:02:30.160 | so you just, like, how did you do it?

01:02:34.980 | Just fucking not refusing to-

01:02:37.980 | - You have to make weight.

01:02:38.980 | - You have to make weight.

01:02:40.460 | - I am astounded when I hear like UFC fighters,

01:02:47.660 | like miss weight, right?

01:02:51.620 | Like when Jaden Cox missed weight at the Olympic trials,

01:02:56.220 | I was like, at least his was understandable

01:02:59.940 | because he missed the actual weigh-ins.

01:03:03.020 | He wasn't like not on weight.

01:03:05.820 | But when UFC fighters like miss weight,

01:03:08.660 | I'm like, how did that happen?

01:03:12.400 | You clearly like gave up a long time ago.

01:03:15.520 | There were times where I was like, I can't do this.

01:03:19.980 | There've been times where I've been in a sauna suit

01:03:23.820 | wrestling with a training partner who's probably 60 kilos

01:03:27.280 | who fought earlier that day to lose 0.3.

01:03:31.380 | - To lose 0.3.

01:03:33.420 | Are you considering your mortality in this moment?

01:03:35.820 | Like, aren't you thinking you're gonna die?

01:03:38.420 | 'Cause like it's severe dehydration.

01:03:41.360 | You could damage your body.

01:03:42.980 | Are you thinking about any of this or is this just?

01:03:47.680 | Man.

01:03:51.780 | Okay, yes.

01:03:52.620 | - But see, I'm on the other level too

01:03:54.460 | where like I've been in Belgium, right?

01:03:57.140 | Belgium, there used to be a B-level tournament

01:03:59.840 | and the tournament used to go on.

01:04:01.860 | And because I was always on the heavier side,

01:04:03.940 | like 81's fights on the second day,

01:04:05.540 | which is the heavyweight day,

01:04:06.980 | weigh-ins were always at like,

01:04:09.980 | let's say 2 p.m. the day before for that tournament.

01:04:12.620 | Well, there was a sauna at the tournament.

01:04:15.180 | I remember like being in the sauna and like,

01:04:17.660 | oh, I'm 80.9 kilos.

01:04:20.820 | Weigh-ins aren't for three hours.

01:04:24.780 | Fuck it, I'm gonna have lunch.

01:04:29.300 | 'Cause I mentally understand that what I eat right now

01:04:33.780 | is gonna fuel me for tomorrow.

01:04:35.940 | So I don't wanna skip it.

01:04:37.620 | I have the time to put it into my system and still lose it.

01:04:40.720 | - It's almost like a computer program.

01:04:43.180 | You're running through the process.

01:04:45.020 | I get it, but like that all relies

01:04:48.220 | on your ability to be, to get it back off.

01:04:51.540 | - Yeah, I mean, but also just like go through this process,

01:04:54.060 | which is painful.

01:04:54.900 | It's like those monks who meditate

01:04:56.100 | while sitting in a fire kind of thing or something.

01:04:58.420 | - Right, like that, yeah, it's really interesting.

01:05:02.500 | Is there other people that are critical to this

01:05:05.620 | or is this all internal to you?

01:05:07.460 | Are there people that, you know--

01:05:09.860 | - Everybody has their own way of doing it.

01:05:14.220 | Some people don't cut that much.

01:05:15.980 | Some people can't weight cut at all, right?

01:05:18.340 | They would rather have been like 83 kilos fighting 90

01:05:22.580 | than be 83 kilos fighting 81.

01:05:26.860 | (sighs)

01:05:29.020 | - So why did you never move up to 90?

01:05:30.900 | What's your sense?

01:05:33.820 | Is it from your deep understanding of your own judo

01:05:36.500 | and like the judo opponents you would face at 90 and 81?

01:05:40.620 | 'Cause 81 is probably the hardest,

01:05:43.040 | if not the second hardest division in the history of judo

01:05:45.860 | compared to 73 and 81.

01:05:49.140 | - You know, when I was a kid,

01:05:50.260 | like I always wanted to be like

01:05:53.020 | the middleweight Olympic champion,

01:05:54.660 | like the 81 kilo Olympic champion.

01:05:57.340 | When I was in high school,

01:05:59.260 | I made a decision when I was trying to make weight for 73.

01:06:02.020 | I was like, dude, this is,

01:06:04.300 | I was cutting weight for 73

01:06:05.900 | like I was cutting weight at the end of my career, right?

01:06:09.060 | And I was like, I'm just gonna bag it.

01:06:11.620 | I'm gonna accept the fact

01:06:12.740 | that I may not make a junior world team.

01:06:14.340 | I may not make this team, but I'll grow into the division.

01:06:18.100 | So when I'm a senior player, like I'm ready to go

01:06:20.580 | and I'll naturally be stronger.

01:06:22.780 | There's an understanding of like a growth process

01:06:25.140 | when you move up a weight class.

01:06:27.300 | Most people can't just, oh, I'm gonna fight 90s

01:06:31.660 | and I'm gonna win because I won in 81.

01:06:33.980 | The style of judo is different.

01:06:35.860 | How you move is different.

01:06:37.380 | How they do things is different.

01:06:38.820 | There's like a learning curve that goes into it.

01:06:42.100 | And because the weight cut didn't really happen

01:06:45.300 | until I was getting ready for Rio,

01:06:47.620 | I wasn't about to have my last Olympic games

01:06:49.940 | be at a different weight class

01:06:51.140 | that I may or may not be able to grow into.

01:06:53.940 | - I mean, this is an awesome story of you kind of decided

01:06:57.980 | that this will be your life's work

01:06:59.900 | in terms of judo competitor is like the 81 division.

01:07:03.620 | I'm going to, I mean, I don't know if you saw it that way,

01:07:05.780 | but you're talking about three Olympics.

01:07:07.740 | And it's like this story of, I would say,

01:07:11.460 | tragedy and triumph of just wars and 81 kilograms

01:07:16.460 | with the usual cast of characters of the top five

01:07:20.700 | in the world kind of thing.

01:07:22.020 | So you just became a scholar of that,

01:07:24.580 | let your body grow into it and then let your body outgrow it

01:07:28.060 | and still suffer through it to keep it in the 81 kilograms.

01:07:31.740 | You never competed at like at the highest levels at 90.

01:07:34.980 | - I entered one tournament at 90 kilos.

01:07:38.020 | And that was because before Rio from 20,

01:07:43.020 | from the end of 2014, all the way up until Rio's,

01:07:48.340 | every time I fought, I got hurt, every time.

01:07:51.960 | There was no time where I made weight and got injured

01:07:55.140 | because my body weight was so high.

01:07:57.320 | My body fat was so low that by the time I dehydrated enough

01:08:01.260 | to get down there and you take the physicality of judo

01:08:04.460 | and throw that into the mix, something broke every time.

01:08:08.060 | It was like nature of the beast.

01:08:10.160 | So the plan was before Rio,

01:08:17.060 | we made an agreement with USA Judo that,

01:08:19.580 | "Travis, you're gonna fight 90 kilos,

01:08:22.020 | but you're not gonna weigh in at 90 kilos.

01:08:23.780 | Like, hey, there's no like you get to be 94 kilos

01:08:27.140 | and cut to 90s.

01:08:28.140 | There's like, you're gonna step on the scale at 84 kilos,

01:08:31.980 | like a little bit of a weight cut, but not a full one,

01:08:34.960 | just so that you feel like you get into like the tournament.

01:08:38.220 | Because when I, around 2012,

01:08:41.380 | when I was talking with the USOC nutritionist,

01:08:44.540 | I actually got my weight down so much

01:08:46.220 | that I didn't really need to cut weight.

01:08:48.380 | The problem is, is I wasn't cutting weight.

01:08:49.820 | I didn't feel like I was competing.

01:08:51.460 | - Got it.

01:08:52.300 | - Right, you have to go through like that mental process.

01:08:55.220 | And I never really reworked that.

01:08:56.660 | It was easier to just cut the weight and be ready to go.

01:08:59.460 | But when I entered into the 90 kilo division,

01:09:03.020 | I was rushed to the hospital the night after

01:09:05.260 | because my body broke out in hives, like full body.

01:09:09.220 | - My.

01:09:10.340 | - They said it was stress induced.

01:09:12.020 | - Fascinating.

01:09:14.540 | - So a month before the games, I was hospitalized and hungry

01:09:17.540 | and filled with steroids to get the hives to drop.

01:09:21.860 | And every couple of days, my body, when I got back home,

01:09:25.620 | I would end up in the hospital

01:09:27.340 | because my whole body would break out again.

01:09:29.100 | - I wonder if it's like deviating from the process

01:09:31.140 | that you saw like perfectly crafted already.

01:09:34.260 | - Or it was stress from my mind thinking,

01:09:36.780 | like even though it's not top of mind,

01:09:39.740 | there's probably a portion of me that like,

01:09:41.340 | the Olympics is coming around and it could be my last.

01:09:45.040 | That like my body just reacted to something chemically.

01:09:49.040 | So I was breaking out in hives.

01:09:50.920 | I actually bought like a 600 Euro Hugo boss suit

01:09:55.760 | because when I was in the Netherlands training at the time,

01:09:59.160 | I thought I had bedbugs

01:10:00.840 | 'cause I was getting bit everywhere.

01:10:02.720 | Then I thought there was something in the detergent

01:10:04.680 | at the local thing, so I threw away all my clothes.

01:10:07.600 | Like I was paying for showers

01:10:09.320 | 'cause I was trying to get the detergent off my body

01:10:11.760 | and buying new clothes at the airport.

01:10:14.600 | - Trying to figure it out.

01:10:16.160 | - Trying to figure it out and just go, yeah.

01:10:18.120 | Accepting the situation.

01:10:19.240 | I mean, but the level of stress is exceptionally high here.

01:10:22.320 | Can we talk about the other side?

01:10:24.600 | People are gonna love this,

01:10:26.760 | but you have a long history of persevering through injuries,

01:10:31.760 | through insane amounts of injuries.

01:10:36.680 | - My ability to tolerate pain

01:10:39.080 | is probably more than most people.

01:10:42.240 | - But see, injuries aren't just pain, right?

01:10:44.760 | It's like, it's also mental, like psychological.

01:10:49.200 | Like again, like the weight cut,

01:10:51.280 | it can make a lot of people quit.

01:10:53.080 | - Yep.

01:10:54.440 | - Can you tell your history of injuries?

01:10:57.920 | What are the biggest injuries,

01:10:59.660 | the toughest injuries in your career?

01:11:01.560 | Starting from what, your early teens?

01:11:05.480 | - My early teens, I actually got out of sports

01:11:09.840 | from 11 to, I wanna say like 15 years old, 16 years old,

01:11:14.840 | because a kid shot a double leg through my kneecap

01:11:18.760 | and I partially tore all the ligaments in my knee,

01:11:21.120 | cartilage, meniscus, the whole nine yards.

01:11:23.640 | And I had to learn how to walk again.

01:11:25.360 | I spent two years in a leg brace, crutches,

01:11:29.480 | you know, hobbling around the schoolyard.

01:11:32.120 | That one was a challenge to come back from.

01:11:34.400 | I've broken most of my ribs.

01:11:39.200 | I won nationals with nine broken ribs.

01:11:42.120 | I was actually getting Novocaine shots into my chest

01:11:45.560 | to avoid feeling the pain and then wrapping them

01:11:48.520 | to try to make sure I didn't pop a lung.

01:11:51.240 | I've broken my collarbone.

01:11:56.000 | I have five herniated disc in my neck.

01:11:58.440 | I fractured my back twice.

01:12:00.760 | I've broken my tailbone.

01:12:02.320 | I tore my SI joints.

01:12:04.840 | I've torn my right hamstring twice, my left one once.

01:12:08.620 | I've broken my ankles a few times.

01:12:13.620 | I spun it once in a 360 that had depth surgery.

01:12:16.540 | Fingers, toes, elbows, shoulders.

01:12:20.180 | - So all of these are, first of all,

01:12:22.540 | you're a tough dude, man.

01:12:28.660 | So each of those have a story behind them.

01:12:32.760 | So if you're talking about the collarbone or the ankles,

01:12:38.420 | or the back, the neck, is there interesting stories here

01:12:43.180 | that are behind these injuries?

01:12:44.780 | Hard training, hard competing, jiu-jitsu, judo.

01:12:49.780 | So ground stuff like sparring in the dojo

01:12:53.820 | or like drilling or all that kind of stuff.

01:12:56.560 | If you were to sort of break it down,

01:12:59.260 | your understanding of the landscape of injuries

01:13:01.540 | you went through.

01:13:03.060 | - I've never had one in jiu-jitsu, ever.

01:13:07.860 | I mean, I might've like torn a fingernail

01:13:09.940 | or like gotten key burned,

01:13:12.880 | but I've never been like seriously injured.

01:13:16.840 | I know when Ponza straight ankle locked me at Copa Podio,

01:13:20.640 | that hurt, but I wasn't injured.

01:13:24.700 | Like it felt sore, but like if I had to run,

01:13:27.540 | like I could run.

01:13:28.780 | - I can now understand probably exactly

01:13:31.180 | where the injuries came from then.

01:13:33.000 | You're very quickly excelled at jiu-jitsu.

01:13:36.380 | You have achieved another level in judo.

01:13:39.020 | And I think that means the intensity

01:13:41.880 | with which you approach judo

01:13:44.260 | to achieve that world-class level

01:13:46.980 | probably is the source of the injuries.

01:13:49.300 | - Yeah, because the mentality

01:13:52.580 | of how I approach judo versus jiu-jitsu,

01:13:57.140 | jiu-jitsu to me is like a game that like we would play.

01:14:02.140 | Like if you wanted to like grab a basketball

01:14:04.740 | and like go play a game of one-on-one,

01:14:07.540 | that's like jiu-jitsu to me.

01:14:09.060 | Like I can't take the sport in its entirety seriously

01:14:13.700 | 'cause I feel like the community of jiu-jitsu

01:14:15.700 | doesn't take it seriously.

01:14:17.340 | - So just for people who don't know,

01:14:19.220 | just to set some context,

01:14:21.380 | you're a black belt in jiu-jitsu,

01:14:24.100 | but more importantly,

01:14:25.640 | you've beaten a lot of world-class jiu-jitsu people.

01:14:29.980 | You've done very well

01:14:31.420 | at the highest levels of competition.

01:14:33.060 | - Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I've beaten them

01:14:35.500 | as much as I've trained with them.

01:14:39.140 | And they understand whoever it is

01:14:43.060 | that through training with me,

01:14:45.580 | that like I'm not just a judo guy.

01:14:48.720 | Like I know how to do jiu-jitsu, right?

01:14:52.100 | And if any one of them were to come to me and like say,

01:14:56.740 | hey, you know, I wanna feel what it feels like

01:15:00.860 | to do judo with me,

01:15:02.860 | they would quickly understand that like

01:15:07.840 | the way I approach one is very different

01:15:10.780 | than the way I approach the other.

01:15:12.060 | Like we probably wouldn't be friends

01:15:14.220 | if they did judo with me versus

01:15:16.020 | if they did jiu-jitsu with me.

01:15:17.500 | - I'm curious asking for a friend

01:15:19.500 | because mostly because I'll do a little judo with you today.

01:15:22.940 | So you clearly, 'cause you're a great instructor and teacher,

01:15:25.660 | you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique.

01:15:28.580 | Do you know how to like spar where you're going like 50%?

01:15:33.580 | - It's hard to put like a percentage to it

01:15:37.100 | because I've never in all of my jiu-jitsu ever gone 100%.

01:15:42.100 | - In jiu-jitsu?

01:15:43.540 | - Yeah, like I had a conversation with Salo one time

01:15:47.580 | where we were talking about like jiu-jitsu and training.

01:15:51.240 | And I was like, well, if I got his arm,

01:15:53.660 | I would just break it.

01:15:55.540 | And he was like, but what if he tapped?

01:15:59.300 | I go, that's not my responsibility.

01:16:01.780 | If he taps and the ref doesn't say anything,

01:16:04.820 | you just break it, you just keep going.

01:16:07.380 | He goes, but the tap means it's over.

01:16:08.980 | And I said, no, the ref tells me when it's over.

01:16:11.340 | I go, I never give you the opportunity to tap

01:16:14.400 | 'cause if you have the opportunity to tap,

01:16:16.380 | that means you had the opportunity to think

01:16:18.340 | about how to get out, make a decision that you can't,

01:16:22.260 | then tap.

01:16:23.260 | I clearly operated too slowly.

01:16:25.420 | - Yeah.

01:16:26.260 | - So there's a, it's either broken or I don't have it.

01:16:28.700 | - You're a terrifying person to go against in Judo.

01:16:33.220 | Like the, on the ground, like everything you did,

01:16:35.580 | that's amazing.

01:16:36.840 | That's really amazing.

01:16:39.060 | That's what made you a really fun person to watch

01:16:42.020 | is you really went to war with these people.

01:16:44.100 | - Yeah.

01:16:45.020 | - So you know what it's like to go 100% in Judo?

01:16:47.580 | - I do, 'cause I know what it's like to train

01:16:51.700 | with somebody under the mentality of,

01:16:54.300 | I'm gonna do everything I want to do.

01:16:56.500 | You're gonna do nothing you want to do

01:16:59.180 | and you're gonna accept that.

01:17:00.620 | - Do you ever train in Judo

01:17:03.260 | where you let people get stuff?

01:17:05.380 | - Of course, all the time.

01:17:08.460 | - Now or like?

01:17:09.900 | - Always.

01:17:10.900 | - Even when you're sort of building up the four years,

01:17:12.940 | building up to the Olympics, like there's smaller guys

01:17:16.100 | that are throwing you in the gym and that kind of stuff.

01:17:18.380 | - No, I never said that.

01:17:19.580 | - Okay.

01:17:20.420 | (laughing)

01:17:21.860 | - That never came out of my mouth.

01:17:24.280 | I said I let people do stuff.

01:17:25.720 | I never said smaller people throw me.

01:17:27.920 | - Oh, you mean you let them get a grip

01:17:29.480 | but then you'll position yourself on such a way

01:17:31.280 | that it's hopeless.

01:17:32.800 | - The number one skill set that Judo is gonna teach you

01:17:37.760 | is the ability to give people false hope.

01:17:41.680 | Right, 'cause I can let--

01:17:44.840 | - I'm really looking forward to the video

01:17:46.240 | we're gonna shoot later today.

01:17:47.720 | - Like I can let you take a grip.

01:17:50.640 | I can let you think that there's opportunity

01:17:52.880 | but what you don't understand is by the position

01:17:55.800 | and angle that I'm in, it's actually false hope.

01:17:58.760 | As long as you don't know that it is,

01:18:02.160 | then now I'm free to operate and do what I want.

01:18:04.880 | - See, I competed in Judo against black belts

01:18:08.520 | where I would go in and it looks like I should be able

01:18:13.000 | to throw them and then you just hit a wall.

01:18:15.360 | And then I also saw you destroy those black belts.

01:18:19.000 | So there's levels to this.

01:18:20.900 | It's the cliche thing of there's black belts

01:18:23.400 | and there's black belts.

01:18:24.920 | You're unique in this.

01:18:26.160 | There may be a couple other Judo in America

01:18:29.440 | but you're really like unique.

01:18:30.680 | I then get to see people that really I felt like

01:18:35.600 | were 10X better than me.

01:18:37.880 | It just feels like that sometimes.

01:18:39.360 | I've learned that madness and it said to be true

01:18:41.240 | that it might only be just a little better

01:18:44.000 | but I saw you destroy them.

01:18:46.720 | And it was like, holy shit.

01:18:49.280 | There's a thing in Judo where,

01:18:52.140 | imagine you as just an adult.

01:18:56.360 | And I hope people can conceptualize this

01:19:01.820 | when they hear this.

01:19:02.660 | But imagine you're a full grown adult,

01:19:04.940 | even male, female, it doesn't matter.

01:19:07.220 | But there's a little kid in front of you,

01:19:08.580 | call him five or six years old and he's acting out.

01:19:12.220 | Do you think you have the physical capability

01:19:15.780 | of with one hand grabbing that person or that kid

01:19:19.380 | and making sure that they freeze?

01:19:22.140 | They feel like they're nervous

01:19:23.540 | and they can't do anything.

01:19:25.000 | When you fight a good Judo player,

01:19:28.420 | when they grab you, that's what it feels like as an adult.

01:19:32.260 | Even I've felt that from certain players in Japan,

01:19:36.780 | when they get a grip, I'm like,

01:19:38.740 | I've now lost the function of this limb.

01:19:41.580 | - That's a really good way to put it.

01:19:43.220 | - I think I could potentially beat some of the people

01:19:46.340 | I've went against, but certain grips they took,

01:19:50.540 | it made me feel powerless.

01:19:53.860 | I was like, I didn't know this was possible.

01:19:56.140 | That kind of power was possible.

01:19:57.900 | - And you don't even know where it originates from.

01:20:00.260 | 'Cause you're like, how does one person's hand do this

01:20:02.700 | where I can't use my whole arm?

01:20:04.940 | Or like, I can't pick up my right foot

01:20:06.860 | because he's holding onto my right sleeve.

01:20:09.300 | - It was kind of on a basic animalistic sense,

01:20:13.140 | kind of terrifying.

01:20:14.420 | Part of this is like ego,

01:20:20.340 | but you realize that there's a food chain

01:20:22.900 | and you're not at the top of it.

01:20:24.540 | That's part of the humbling process,

01:20:28.060 | I think, of martial arts.

01:20:29.300 | I think everybody, like a lot of people,

01:20:35.220 | think they're much higher in the food chain

01:20:37.100 | than they really are.

01:20:38.580 | And then when you realize,

01:20:39.900 | this is why it's a really healthy process for people.

01:20:41.980 | Although they're not even competing in the Olympics,

01:20:45.140 | to practice martial arts.

01:20:46.340 | 'Cause you realize, okay,

01:20:47.580 | that putting yourself more accurately in the food chain

01:20:50.860 | is really good way to sort of place yourself

01:20:54.500 | in the rest of the world.

01:20:55.580 | It humbles you to the reality of the harshness of the world.

01:20:58.620 | - Yeah.

01:20:59.700 | It's kind of like when people look at survival

01:21:01.780 | in the wilderness, it's like, oh, it's not that hard.

01:21:05.020 | No, you'd probably be dying in a couple of days.

01:21:07.580 | Same thing with like Judo and martial arts.

01:21:10.980 | Yeah, it's really not that hard,

01:21:13.180 | but you don't know what to do yet.

01:21:15.420 | And so when you find out that first time

01:21:17.140 | that you don't know what to do,

01:21:18.940 | it's devastating to a lot of people.

01:21:21.120 | But those that stick through it and start to learn,

01:21:24.740 | it's a very powerful feeling

01:21:27.380 | that now you can take care of yourself.

01:21:29.900 | - And I think when I talked to you a few times before,

01:21:34.780 | you talked about that there's the top three,

01:21:37.740 | the top five in the world.

01:21:38.900 | I don't know where you put them,

01:21:40.300 | but they're another level above everybody else.

01:21:43.540 | - They're a whole nother tier, yeah.

01:21:45.020 | - And the fact that you're, I mean, it's so exciting to me,

01:21:48.600 | probably because I just felt all the levels here

01:21:54.100 | and I have seen you and others at that height destroy those.

01:21:59.100 | I've seen the exponential levels to this game.

01:22:03.780 | It's incredible that you didn't quit,

01:22:08.260 | didn't doubt yourself and just persevered

01:22:11.540 | through three Olympics to get to that highest,

01:22:14.980 | always fighting at that very highest of levels,

01:22:18.060 | but just from the top 10 to the top five,

01:22:22.140 | really breaking in through that.

01:22:23.860 | I don't know.

01:22:25.660 | What would you say it took to get to that highest of levels?

01:22:30.860 | Like when you look back at all the weight cuts,

01:22:33.220 | just the insane amount of injuries,

01:22:36.260 | believe it or not,

01:22:37.100 | I didn't really think I was there until 2013.

01:22:41.020 | I thought I was recognized as one of the best

01:22:45.860 | because I was able to fight for Oppensburg,

01:22:48.020 | which was the professional Bundesliga team for Germany,

01:22:50.620 | which is one of the top clubs in all of Europe.

01:22:52.960 | When they asked me to,

01:22:55.020 | I felt like Europe had like accepted me as like,

01:22:59.380 | oh, I'm a top level judo player.

01:23:02.480 | But I don't necessarily think that when I signed on

01:23:05.460 | to compete for them that the division

01:23:08.140 | or the world of judo saw me as a top level judo player.

01:23:11.180 | There's a mental shift that happens along that point.

01:23:18.420 | And for me, my mental shift really came into play

01:23:23.500 | in December of 2015 before Rio.

01:23:28.020 | That was like when I lost in Japan,

01:23:31.900 | that's when I realized like the world respects my abilities

01:23:36.540 | and they compete against them.

01:23:38.040 | They don't compete against me as a person.

01:23:41.900 | They compete against the idea or the persona

01:23:46.900 | that I've been able to establish

01:23:52.060 | over the years of competing in the division.

01:23:54.220 | - Wow, so you're the,

01:23:56.180 | they probably have a nickname for you,

01:23:57.780 | you're the system of ideas and thought that they study.

01:24:02.140 | - But they're studying me as a conceptual whole,

01:24:06.620 | not me as the human.

01:24:07.940 | - Is your style relatively unique

01:24:12.860 | in the 81 kilogram division?

01:24:14.700 | - It was relatively unique for Kayla, I, and Jimmy

01:24:18.580 | up until 2016.

01:24:20.860 | Now, since 2016, you can see a lot of what we used to do

01:24:25.460 | throughout most of Europe and even Asia.

01:24:27.820 | Like you're starting to see some of those techniques

01:24:29.660 | that you didn't see before starting to get implemented.

01:24:32.720 | 'Cause when I was gearing up for 2015,

01:24:38.980 | I had such a slew of injuries that entire calendar year

01:24:42.900 | that I never should have made it to Rio.

01:24:46.420 | I should have called it quits at the end of 2015

01:24:49.500 | because I suffered that major concussion in February.

01:24:54.140 | I stepped on a mat in May for the first time.

01:24:57.700 | I lost five straight tournaments.

01:25:00.020 | I left the national team, went to Japan,

01:25:03.740 | won Pan Am Games, got a bacterial infection at the Worlds,

01:25:07.580 | almost had my leg cut off,

01:25:09.460 | tore my SI joint later on that year,

01:25:12.140 | and then took fifth in Japan.

01:25:14.300 | And when you look at like the calendar year as a whole,

01:25:17.440 | like the world should have treated me like I was washed up.

01:25:22.300 | Like this guy hasn't been training,

01:25:23.700 | he hasn't been doing anything, but I took fifth in Japan.

01:25:26.860 | Now, how does a guy that hasn't trained all year

01:25:30.340 | take fifth at one of the hardest tournaments in the world

01:25:32.640 | on two weeks of training?

01:25:33.980 | Because they were fighting the guy I used to be,

01:25:38.300 | not the guy I was at the tournament,

01:25:42.520 | which means they were competing under the idea of like,

01:25:45.980 | what is he really capable of,

01:25:48.300 | not what have I brought to the table today.

01:25:53.140 | - And that just gave you the confidence.

01:25:54.700 | - And that told me that like,

01:25:56.660 | well, if I can take fifth

01:25:57.900 | and I'm this bad at judo right now,

01:25:59.780 | wait until I'm healthy and I'm back in shape,

01:26:03.140 | then they're not gonna know what hit them.

01:26:04.780 | - One of the essential components

01:26:06.180 | of being the number one in the world

01:26:07.700 | or up in that place is that confidence, the self-belief.

01:26:11.980 | - And the rest of the world believing it.

01:26:14.020 | You can have all the confidence in the world,

01:26:16.540 | but if the rest of the room doesn't buy it, it's nothing.

01:26:20.120 | - That's funny.

01:26:21.060 | It's like there's certain people, right?

01:26:22.620 | Joe Tyson, Mike Tyson.

01:26:24.700 | - They all understand he could not train

01:26:27.780 | and they're still scared.

01:26:28.980 | Right?

01:26:30.720 | Like he doesn't have to work out that hard anymore.

01:26:32.420 | - There's several judo, you know this way better,

01:26:34.900 | but from a spectator perspective,

01:26:36.380 | like Ilias Iliadis is like that.

01:26:38.140 | - He's one of them.

01:26:39.480 | - It's like he-

01:26:41.320 | - He's portrayed over the years.

01:26:42.740 | - Why is everyone so scared of that guy?

01:26:44.720 | It's interesting.

01:26:47.700 | People were scared of you too.

01:26:49.300 | - People just gave a certain level of respect

01:26:52.460 | to my skillset and whether I had a bad weight cut

01:26:56.380 | or didn't have a bad weight cut

01:26:58.180 | or not trained for the last three months,

01:27:00.100 | which never happened, I'm just saying,

01:27:02.380 | they were gonna fight the persona.

01:27:04.300 | And it's an important distinction

01:27:07.460 | when you're looking at the top five

01:27:08.860 | because everybody coming up,

01:27:12.120 | they're training against the persona, not who you are.

01:27:16.860 | Even I did that at a younger age.

01:27:19.860 | That's why I would always go to people's hometowns

01:27:22.660 | 'cause I don't care about the persona.

01:27:25.140 | I wanna know what you do day in and day out.

01:27:27.980 | When I couldn't beat a Russian,

01:27:29.060 | I told Jimmy, send me to Russia.

01:27:30.740 | I need to understand and see it with my own eyes

01:27:34.340 | what they do, outperform so that I can believe

01:27:38.140 | that I can beat them.

01:27:39.860 | - Can I ask you on this, a small tangent.

01:27:41.860 | Dagestan has produced some incredible wrestlers.

01:27:46.380 | I don't know what the story with judo is

01:27:48.620 | where the source of greatness in Russia is for judo,

01:27:53.620 | but what do you make of Dagestan?

01:27:55.620 | What is it in the culture of there or Russia broadly

01:28:00.140 | that produces greatness?

01:28:01.640 | - Specifically in the combat sports.

01:28:05.380 | - I don't know, yeah, specifically in the combat sports,

01:28:07.580 | sorry, but I don't know if you wanna draw a distinction

01:28:09.780 | between wrestling and judo.

01:28:10.820 | I'm almost curious, do you understand the differences there

01:28:13.860 | in the culture?

01:28:15.140 | - Still a combat sport to them.

01:28:17.140 | They're still in that same realm of they're taking

01:28:21.420 | young kids and that's what they do.

01:28:26.260 | - So Khabib speaks very highly of judo.

01:28:29.140 | - Yep.

01:28:29.980 | - Like it's funny, Khabib, Vladimir Putin.

01:28:33.540 | - People don't get it, but judo's like one

01:28:36.220 | of the premier sports in the world.

01:28:38.580 | But we just don't understand it.

01:28:39.940 | - It's not just popularity, so definitely popularity,

01:28:42.460 | but also like this respect.

01:28:44.940 | And there's a certain thing,

01:28:47.100 | which is why I really value judo internationally.

01:28:50.500 | You don't get this in the United States,

01:28:51.820 | but internationally there's an understanding

01:28:55.340 | like later in life when you're a scientist

01:28:58.260 | meeting a businessman, when you both have done judo,

01:29:01.700 | there's this like nod of respect.

01:29:04.380 | - Yeah. - It's so interesting.

01:29:06.380 | There's very few sports like that.

01:29:07.900 | Basketball doesn't have any,

01:29:09.380 | I don't know almost any sport like that.

01:29:11.740 | And it's fascinating.

01:29:12.740 | Wrestling has that in the US, it is the US only.

01:29:16.620 | The rest of the world doesn't do that.

01:29:18.140 | - There's a few, like you could see that in like Iran

01:29:21.060 | or something like that.

01:29:21.900 | - Yeah. - They'll respect wrestling

01:29:23.260 | in that kind of way.

01:29:24.740 | Yeah, but judo on like a global scale

01:29:28.180 | is probably that only one.

01:29:29.820 | Due to its like physicality and the hardships

01:29:34.500 | that you have to go through to reach that upper level.

01:29:38.180 | - So why do you think Dagestan,

01:29:39.580 | why do you think Khabib is as good as he is?

01:29:41.460 | Is this just the raw genetics of the human

01:29:44.900 | or is there something about the system?

01:29:46.860 | - The system, it all has to do with the system.

01:29:50.100 | - So they grow up around fighting in all forms.

01:29:55.620 | - Yep.

01:29:56.460 | - They're also, I mean their technique is exceptionally good.

01:30:00.500 | - Because they grow up in it.

01:30:02.780 | - They grow up in it.

01:30:04.300 | - They don't understand anything else.

01:30:08.340 | - So you don't have to, it's almost like you

01:30:09.620 | with the weight cutting.

01:30:11.180 | It's not like a big dramatic thing for them to fight.

01:30:13.900 | It's like, this is just part of life.

01:30:16.060 | - Yes, and when you're, I don't wanna say bred into it,

01:30:20.300 | but when you've done it for,

01:30:23.380 | I wanna say like 90% of your life

01:30:26.660 | by the time like Khabib probably has,

01:30:29.340 | right from the time he could crawl,

01:30:30.760 | he's probably been grappling in some fashion thereof.

01:30:33.900 | You know, when you as grapplers,

01:30:38.980 | like you can look at a wrestler

01:30:40.940 | and having never seen this person before and go,

01:30:44.740 | you wrestled.

01:30:46.020 | - Yeah.

01:30:47.180 | - Why is that?

01:30:48.340 | It's because he's probably wrestled since he was like six.

01:30:51.620 | So the way he carries himself, the way his body is built,

01:30:55.780 | the way he grew into it was framed around wrestling.

01:30:59.720 | Right, so the people in that culture

01:31:02.780 | are framed around fighting and grappling.

01:31:06.260 | - You're right, it's like, first of all,

01:31:07.940 | philosophically, psychologically,

01:31:10.340 | but also just like the way you move your body.

01:31:12.260 | - Yes.

01:31:13.100 | - That means like when you're young,

01:31:14.740 | the people you admire move their body

01:31:16.620 | in a certain kind of way.

01:31:18.020 | - And then genetically, it just, as they keep doing that,

01:31:22.100 | they're just gonna get better and better every generation.

01:31:25.500 | - Yeah.

01:31:26.620 | - It's just gonna keep improving

01:31:27.860 | because they just keep building into that system

01:31:30.020 | of turning them out.

01:31:31.420 | - And part of it, there's like cultural stuff where,

01:31:34.380 | I mean, it's such an interesting approach

01:31:36.060 | to wrestling, I really wanna travel to Dagestan

01:31:38.220 | and just talk to them 'cause I happen to be able

01:31:40.860 | to speak Russian 'cause there's less value

01:31:45.460 | for this kind of materialistic success

01:31:49.500 | that I think sometimes can get in the way of greatness,

01:31:53.500 | it seems like.

01:31:54.580 | It makes coaching more difficult,

01:31:56.420 | it makes like following orders as an athlete more difficult.

01:31:59.820 | - We struggle with that in USA Judo, yeah.

01:32:02.860 | - 'Cause you want more money,

01:32:05.080 | but then more money, if not applied correctly,

01:32:08.100 | can corrupt the system somehow, can split people up.

01:32:11.180 | It's just, it's same thing with the prestige

01:32:13.220 | around certain medals over others

01:32:15.100 | because athletes start chasing fame instead of development.

01:32:20.100 | - Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean,

01:32:25.180 | the Sateo brothers are famous for this,

01:32:27.220 | like ignoring fame, ignoring all of this,

01:32:30.580 | like focus on the art itself.

01:32:31.980 | Not even, so it's not even the medals,

01:32:34.300 | exactly like you're saying,

01:32:35.340 | just the purity of like when you're in it

01:32:38.060 | and let everybody else figure out their stupid medals

01:32:40.300 | and money and all that.

01:32:41.140 | - 'Cause it comes.

01:32:42.180 | - It comes, right, exactly.

01:32:43.220 | - It's a result.

01:32:44.340 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:32:45.300 | Like it's not that you don't appreciate it,

01:32:46.900 | but you know that it comes if you focus on the art.

01:32:50.340 | - There's a distinction when you're talking

01:32:53.420 | about your athletic career or really any endeavor, right?

01:32:58.420 | The problem with goal setting is nobody teaches the athletes

01:33:03.380 | or the people how to transition from the goal to reality.

01:33:07.760 | Right, so when you look at my career as a whole,

01:33:12.620 | like when I was getting ready for 2008,

01:33:15.220 | I actually forgot to train for it.

01:33:17.300 | I was so happy at such a young age that I became an Olympian

01:33:21.300 | that that in and of itself was a goal

01:33:23.220 | that I thought had to be admired, had to be celebrated,

01:33:27.100 | that the games are right around the corner.

01:33:29.820 | I didn't really come down off that high.

01:33:32.660 | - You're the local optimum of just winning the trials.

01:33:37.100 | - Yeah, it's a big thing.

01:33:39.380 | - It's a huge thing, but then you're just focusing

01:33:41.460 | on the accomplishment, not the-

01:33:43.060 | - Correct, but at some point, right,

01:33:45.700 | when I went into London,

01:33:48.880 | I actually went into London going with,

01:33:51.540 | I'm gonna prove I'm the best in the world

01:33:53.260 | 'cause I believe I'm the best in the world.

01:33:55.420 | And I believe it from like the bottom of my soul

01:33:58.580 | that I'm winning this.

01:34:01.660 | And then you're almost like trying to tell the universe,

01:34:04.340 | like I'm accomplishing this thing because it's a goal.

01:34:07.660 | But when I went into Rio,

01:34:09.120 | I just accepted the fact that I was winning.

01:34:13.900 | It's not a goal, like this is happening.

01:34:16.820 | - You visualize it?

01:34:18.480 | - But I felt it.

01:34:19.580 | - You felt it.

01:34:20.460 | - Right, like this is no longer a goal anymore.

01:34:23.160 | Like I anticipated, like this is happening.

01:34:27.460 | I can see this coming down the path

01:34:30.000 | because I'm anticipating that the games is happening

01:34:33.780 | and I'm gonna win.

01:34:34.620 | It's not a goal, it's an anticipation.

01:34:36.860 | And there's a distinct distinction there between the two.

01:34:39.940 | - Okay, so for people who are just watching the video

01:34:43.860 | of this, there should be an overlay of young Travis.

01:34:48.860 | This is, you still had to make 81.

01:34:52.820 | Is this still a tough cut here?

01:34:54.960 | - No, this one was relatively easy.

01:34:56.720 | This is going all the way back to 2008.

01:34:59.740 | So this is the summer before the games.

01:35:03.500 | This probably happened in June, I would say.

01:35:08.500 | - So this is the Olympic trials.

01:35:11.740 | So in the United States, you have to,

01:35:14.620 | I mean, similar to like wrestling,

01:35:15.980 | you have to win trials to qualify

01:35:18.300 | for that particular division to represent the United States.

01:35:21.700 | So this is, you said June before an August Olympics.

01:35:24.620 | - Yep.

01:35:25.740 | - So here, I just wanted to show this match

01:35:27.940 | 'cause there's another one, I think you do a pin,

01:35:32.300 | you do some nice groundwork in the other one.

01:35:34.420 | But in this one.

01:35:35.740 | - Fighting a teammate.

01:35:39.300 | - Fighting a teammate.

01:35:40.260 | - Former teammate.

01:35:41.100 | Oh, there's an old school double leg.

01:35:42.420 | I forgot about that.

01:35:43.620 | And it's weird to see.

01:35:44.760 | - So there, Travis's opponent,

01:35:49.740 | and Travis is setting up here that Sanagi

01:35:54.600 | posting his left arm and getting it done.

01:35:59.000 | That's a big throw.

01:36:01.400 | You'd have too many of those big throws on video.

01:36:06.040 | 'Cause like you often on video,

01:36:07.840 | you're going against the best people in the world.

01:36:09.680 | It's tough to get like that much air.

01:36:12.240 | - And a lot of times the ones that we do see

01:36:15.040 | and the part that a lot of people don't experience

01:36:19.560 | is a lot of those times

01:36:21.760 | where I threw people with that throw,

01:36:23.800 | it was in training camps.

01:36:25.720 | So by the time I got to the competition with these guys,

01:36:29.080 | they were playing 100% defense to never let me do that.

01:36:33.440 | - Yeah.

01:36:34.480 | So you do this, here, are you kind of pulling him down?

01:36:38.480 | - No, I'm trying to get him to come up.

01:36:41.640 | - But are you pulling him down to get to fake him out?

01:36:43.600 | - I'm not doing anything with my left hand.

01:36:45.760 | - So here the opponent is--

01:36:48.880 | - So what I'm doing right now is his head is like

01:36:51.520 | in my chest, I'm pressing him to get his head to lift

01:36:56.040 | with my chest.

01:36:57.160 | So I'm pressing his hand down so I can use my chest

01:37:01.000 | to like pinch my scaps and roll his head up

01:37:04.200 | so that he wants to pick it up.

01:37:05.760 | - And then he, I mean, doesn't he know what's coming here?

01:37:10.640 | Oh no, he might not.

01:37:12.680 | - Oh no, he knew, he was a former teammate.

01:37:14.440 | He knew exactly what I was trying to do.

01:37:16.600 | - And that was a really big step with your right foot.

01:37:20.240 | - It covers about four feet.

01:37:22.920 | So you step-- - Distance.

01:37:25.280 | - And your left catches up in like perfect position

01:37:31.440 | for the hips. - Yeah, you back it up

01:37:33.600 | a little bit.

01:37:34.440 | Keep going, keep going.

01:37:39.040 | Right there, this is like an important distinction

01:37:42.040 | between mine and everybody else's

01:37:44.280 | is because I split his hip,

01:37:48.480 | I actually, once I'm able to split,

01:37:50.960 | I no longer need his center of gravity below mine.

01:37:54.800 | - Right, and when you say split,

01:37:56.880 | you mean you put your foot in between--

01:37:59.560 | - I do that split, that four foot split.

01:38:01.640 | - Yes.

01:38:02.480 | - And then when I get my feet back together,

01:38:04.720 | it doesn't matter that I'm under his center of gravity

01:38:07.000 | or not.

01:38:07.840 | That's why my chest is right around his like sternum height

01:38:14.000 | for me.

01:38:15.200 | - Yeah, so there, I mean, how does he get,

01:38:17.960 | for people just listening to this,

01:38:19.160 | Travis steps, he does a big, huge step, gets--

01:38:23.920 | - Like my hip is probably right around his nipple

01:38:26.880 | 'cause he sprawled back so much.

01:38:28.920 | - Yeah, that's right.

01:38:30.440 | So like, so you're, how does the physics of this work?

01:38:33.240 | You're violating the principle of your center of mass

01:38:36.360 | being under, oh, I guess somehow it is.

01:38:38.960 | I don't know, but he has nowhere to go.

01:38:40.840 | He's screwed.

01:38:41.960 | - Yes, that's the kicker is the way mine works

01:38:46.360 | is in order for him to play an effective defense,

01:38:50.880 | he needs to have his feet firmly planted on the ground

01:38:54.000 | with friction.

01:38:55.480 | - Yeah.

01:38:56.320 | - Otherwise he can't press into me to stop it.

01:38:59.080 | So when I get him to sprawl back, when I split his legs,

01:39:02.400 | he effectively loses that contact with the floor.

01:39:05.640 | Even though his feet are on the floor,

01:39:07.760 | they're not in a position where he can drive from them.

01:39:10.240 | - Yeah.

01:39:11.080 | - Therefore, when I flip, he flips.

01:39:12.880 | - So there's a natural flailing here.

01:39:17.720 | So he's not falling forward.

01:39:20.320 | You're falling forward.

01:39:21.720 | - Yeah.

01:39:22.560 | - He's just attached to you.

01:39:23.380 | So you can keep him up there

01:39:25.120 | and then legs would be just flailing.

01:39:27.120 | - Yeah.

01:39:27.960 | One of my golden rules when I'm training

01:39:30.800 | and I get really tired,

01:39:32.720 | one of the mantras I would always tell myself is,

01:39:35.680 | I'm gonna put my back on your chest

01:39:37.640 | and then I'm gonna put my back on the floor.

01:39:39.640 | - Yeah.

01:39:40.480 | - 'Cause then you'll be underneath me.

01:39:41.560 | - It's a good principle.

01:39:42.960 | - Very simple.

01:39:43.960 | And it, regardless of like all the chaos

01:39:46.520 | and how quickly things are happening,

01:39:48.400 | it's something I can just dumb everything down to

01:39:50.480 | and focus on.

01:39:51.840 | Regardless of the gripping situation, the footwork,

01:39:54.280 | all of that, get my back to your chest

01:39:56.480 | and then put my back on the floor.

01:39:58.200 | - So this step of getting your back to their chest,

01:40:02.440 | like for people who are sort of more,

01:40:04.920 | like for example, for people like me,

01:40:07.240 | who are just like amateur Judo people,

01:40:09.600 | like there's all kinds of ways to prevent this turn

01:40:12.920 | from happening, the gripping and just everything.

01:40:15.560 | How difficult is it at the highest level

01:40:19.440 | to get into this position?

01:40:21.840 | I mean, you make it look effortless often,

01:40:24.000 | but like to get to a position where you're from facing them

01:40:26.960 | to your back is to them,

01:40:29.680 | is that like strategies, that timing, is that?

01:40:32.560 | - Timing, it's timing.

01:40:34.900 | It's like anything, like if I wanted to punch you

01:40:38.320 | in the face, like how hard is it to really do that

01:40:41.160 | if you know you can just play defense and block it?

01:40:44.280 | The trick is to get them to play defense

01:40:46.280 | to something that never happened.

01:40:48.180 | - And then you go through like another way.

01:40:52.560 | - And then you just go through what would technically

01:40:54.800 | be your first plan if you planned on them playing defense.

01:40:58.240 | So I set the stage from the very beginning for this to work.

01:41:02.200 | - So then this, you're celebrating here,

01:41:07.320 | it's a huge sort of, once a big accomplishment,

01:41:11.680 | big relief to qualify for the Olympics.

01:41:15.000 | And then you go into the Olympics

01:41:16.740 | and this is where I first saw judo.

01:41:19.440 | And I kind of thought of them as the same as judo

01:41:22.360 | and jiu-jitsu.

01:41:23.200 | And I was really impressed by your performance

01:41:26.440 | in that Olympics.

01:41:28.400 | The footage nowhere to be found these days,

01:41:30.580 | but at that time, I think you could still,

01:41:34.280 | you could watch it live on NBC Olympics

01:41:36.940 | or somewhere like that.

01:41:38.880 | And I remember watching several of your matches.

01:41:41.200 | One of them was the match against Ole Bischoff, the German.

01:41:45.200 | And I remember being, it'd be nice if you can talk

01:41:47.640 | to that match because I don't remember it.

01:41:49.400 | All I remember is being frustrated

01:41:52.720 | by him not letting you play judo.

01:41:58.520 | - Yeah.

01:41:59.420 | - So obviously you faced him again four years later

01:42:03.480 | and there's a lot of frustration there as well.

01:42:05.500 | But I remember being extra frustrated in 2008.

01:42:09.160 | What was that match like?

01:42:10.280 | So he might've been number one in the world at the time

01:42:12.920 | or up there.

01:42:13.760 | - He was up there for sure, especially going into 2008.

01:42:18.400 | - He was really high up there.

01:42:19.760 | - Yeah.

01:42:20.600 | - And did he win gold at that Olympics?

01:42:24.080 | - Yes.

01:42:25.760 | - Yeah.

01:42:26.580 | - 'Cause he's silvered in London.

01:42:27.440 | It was the same Olympic final, both in 2008 and London.

01:42:31.400 | - Yeah.

01:42:32.340 | Okay, so you're facing him there.

01:42:35.660 | Were you intimidated?

01:42:36.700 | What was the strategy?

01:42:37.540 | Can you talk to that match?

01:42:39.620 | Because it kind of sets the stage for the rematch in 2012.

01:42:43.840 | - Yeah, he was somebody that I had trained with in the past.

01:42:48.020 | And for some reason, when it comes to him and I,

01:42:51.920 | when we train together,

01:42:53.520 | it's more of a physical altercation

01:42:57.780 | than a judo training session.

01:43:01.000 | It's just like the coaches have had to break us up

01:43:03.440 | a few times.

01:43:04.280 | - Or you guys get almost angry too?

01:43:06.960 | - A little bit.

01:43:07.800 | It always goes farther than it should for,

01:43:11.360 | we're friends, we say hello to each other.

01:43:13.600 | But for some reason, when we train together,

01:43:15.520 | there's something about him and me that just oil and water.

01:43:19.400 | I don't know what it is.

01:43:20.400 | - It could be also the gripping

01:43:21.720 | because he's a great gripping strategist.

01:43:23.600 | - Yeah.

01:43:24.420 | - Does he frustrate you with certain kinds of grips

01:43:26.360 | and then you get pissed off and then you frustrate him?

01:43:28.960 | - And then he gets pissed off

01:43:30.100 | and then before you know it,

01:43:31.020 | somebody's kicked somebody or punched somebody in the mouth

01:43:33.660 | or done something.

01:43:34.740 | - Yeah, so one of the only evidences we have online

01:43:38.100 | of you fighting him is your foot in his groin area

01:43:43.100 | is the only thing we have from that Olympics.

01:43:46.580 | - From 2008.

01:43:47.740 | - From 2008, yeah.

01:43:48.940 | - And to answer everybody's question, yes, it was deliberate.

01:43:52.700 | - Now you can say this.

01:43:53.940 | - Yeah.

01:43:54.780 | - But yeah, I remember there being a lot of frustration.

01:43:58.100 | You're actually going for a lot of stuff

01:43:59.920 | like sacrifice throws.

01:44:00.800 | I mean, maybe you're not going for the highest scoring

01:44:02.960 | and ponds, but you're just trying to shake things up

01:44:05.280 | if I remember correctly.

01:44:06.480 | - Yeah, because when he, I was so young then that,

01:44:09.880 | and he was in his prime really at that time, right?

01:44:13.120 | He must've been 24, 25, 26,

01:44:18.120 | world medalist, European champion at the time.

01:44:22.320 | And when he would grab me,

01:44:24.360 | I had that sense of feeling stuck.

01:44:27.460 | Like I was strong enough if I used all my strength

01:44:30.320 | to not let him do anything,

01:44:32.240 | but then you can't be offensive

01:44:33.640 | when you're using all your strength

01:44:34.880 | to hold onto the situation.

01:44:37.200 | So I was getting really aggravated

01:44:39.920 | because I couldn't generate any offense

01:44:43.360 | with every time I felt like I gained an advantage

01:44:45.680 | in the gripping scenario,

01:44:47.240 | he would take some obscure grip somewhere that was like,

01:44:51.000 | well, now I've got to go address this thing,

01:44:52.680 | give up what I gained and I have to go back.

01:44:54.880 | And if I were to think about watching the match now,

01:44:59.580 | it probably looked like a lot of flailing

01:45:01.820 | because we're just trying to generate enough

01:45:04.500 | to not get a penalty,

01:45:06.020 | but also not enough to where he could counter it.

01:45:08.860 | - Did you think you could beat him?

01:45:11.900 | Like when you were walking into the match?

01:45:14.260 | - Until I gripped him for the first time,

01:45:16.060 | like I had trained with him before,

01:45:19.180 | he felt stronger and more in shape

01:45:22.020 | than I've ever felt him that day.

01:45:24.740 | - At that Olympics?

01:45:25.580 | - At that Olympics.

01:45:26.400 | Which begs a whole nother question, but.

01:45:30.880 | (laughing)

01:45:33.120 | I remember when he grabbed me for that first time,

01:45:37.880 | I went, this is different.

01:45:39.660 | And there was a sense of panic at the time

01:45:42.800 | 'cause I was like, holy crap, where did this come from?

01:45:46.000 | This is not the guy that I've trained with,

01:45:48.960 | that I expected.

01:45:50.000 | 'Cause it was a definite like level change

01:45:53.920 | in like his ability, strength, speed, and stamina.

01:45:57.760 | - Like looking back at that, can you explain that?

01:46:00.440 | Is it just you being more, less confident

01:46:04.360 | because it was the Olympics?

01:46:05.760 | Is there some kind of routine that he followed

01:46:08.640 | to like really level up in intensity

01:46:10.920 | for this particular event?

01:46:12.260 | - I've been told that he only gets to like his prime

01:46:17.260 | for like really big events.

01:46:20.360 | Like he doesn't train like year round like I would train.

01:46:24.000 | But when it comes to like the games,

01:46:25.520 | he doesn't do social media, he doesn't work,

01:46:29.120 | he lives, breathes, eats his training for the games,

01:46:33.480 | which could institute that level.

01:46:36.560 | - What about you?

01:46:37.760 | Is there a, like Dan Gable famously said,

01:46:40.560 | like the one loss he had in college,

01:46:42.520 | he was doing a lot of media and stuff.

01:46:44.200 | Back then there was no social media.

01:46:46.400 | That was a huge mistake for him.

01:46:48.640 | - Do you do social media?

01:46:50.240 | Do you do like--

01:46:51.200 | - At this point?

01:46:52.520 | - Well, at that time it was like AOL.

01:46:53.760 | I don't know, what's 2008?

01:46:55.040 | - I didn't even have a Facebook page,

01:46:57.640 | MySpace, nothing at this point.

01:46:59.620 | I got my first Facebook page from the USOC in 2012.

01:47:04.280 | When I went through the media thing,

01:47:05.440 | the lady was like, "You have to have it."

01:47:07.720 | I go, "I don't want it, I don't like people.

01:47:09.920 | "I want to deal with the people.

01:47:11.920 | "What am I supposed to do?"

01:47:13.240 | - You know, like the social part of the social media.

01:47:15.320 | - No.

01:47:17.240 | - Okay, I have to bring this up

01:47:19.680 | 'cause, and then you went on to face Diego Camilo.

01:47:22.840 | You lost that match, but you went on to win bronze.

01:47:24.960 | That's also an interesting one, but we can skip ahead.

01:47:27.520 | I just remember being really impressed

01:47:29.040 | both by your groundwork.

01:47:30.460 | - That was a match I should have won.

01:47:33.320 | - Yeah.

01:47:34.160 | - I should have won that.

01:47:35.000 | I was, if you don't know judo,

01:47:38.520 | you would visually watch that and be like, "I'm winning."

01:47:40.920 | But he was technically winning on the scoreboard,

01:47:43.280 | so it is what it is.

01:47:44.800 | But the point that he got that solidified his win,

01:47:47.560 | yes, it was a point back in those days

01:47:51.840 | so I can't say anything, but like,

01:47:54.560 | my shoulder nicked the ground.

01:47:56.880 | So it's like, I don't know.

01:47:58.440 | - Yeah, a lot of the stories of your Olympic career

01:48:01.600 | is like, from a fan perspective,

01:48:04.720 | it seems like you should have won

01:48:06.760 | or you very close to could have won.

01:48:09.160 | - Yes.

01:48:10.000 | - And there was a lot of frustration in you

01:48:11.360 | and your game being like shut down in certain ways.

01:48:14.180 | But like the thing that immediately grabbed me in 2008

01:48:19.180 | was how much, something about the way you approached judo,

01:48:23.040 | how much you wanted to win.

01:48:24.960 | - 'Cause I was young then.

01:48:26.520 | I was, when I was at this time in my career,

01:48:31.080 | I was out to like win.

01:48:34.120 | Like there was no like, I'm gonna grab you,

01:48:36.400 | I'm gonna throw you, and if not,

01:48:38.520 | you're gonna go through a battle.

01:48:40.360 | - Yeah.

01:48:41.180 | - You're gonna make sure you earned it.

01:48:42.720 | It so happened that you competing in 2008,

01:48:46.140 | I was, I became a fan of yours at that moment.

01:48:51.240 | And since then, I kind of knew about judo.

01:48:55.040 | My university had a judo club

01:48:57.640 | and I kind of knew about jujitsu from mixed martial arts.

01:49:01.800 | And obviously I wrestled for many years before

01:49:04.280 | and I love wrestling,

01:49:06.020 | but there's something about you competing that made me,

01:49:09.960 | well, there's no other way to say it,

01:49:11.080 | but it like changed the direction of my life.

01:49:12.680 | 'Cause it forced me to say, you know what?

01:49:15.360 | I'm gonna start judo and jujitsu.

01:49:18.040 | And first of all, for that, I'm really grateful,

01:49:20.820 | but it's fascinating to think

01:49:22.120 | because this kid who's 22 years old,

01:49:24.220 | I'm sure I'm not the only one that you've influenced,

01:49:27.720 | like you've changed the direction of my life

01:49:30.080 | and there could be huge number of others like that.

01:49:33.600 | I mean, that's the power of you as an individual

01:49:36.880 | on the Olympic stage.

01:49:38.800 | You ever think about the pressure of that?

01:49:40.640 | Did you think as a 22 year old,

01:49:42.680 | there's a bunch of people,

01:49:44.520 | like I know I'm not the only one who changed.

01:49:46.720 | I just happened to have like a microphone recently.

01:49:49.720 | You know what I mean?

01:49:51.480 | Like, is that, it's fascinating to think about, right?

01:49:54.560 | Like you, perhaps you didn't think about this.

01:49:57.320 | It's just a judo match,

01:49:59.440 | but you're like you influence hundreds of thousands

01:50:02.280 | of people if not millions.

01:50:03.480 | Is that interesting?

01:50:04.880 | - It's not something that really hit me

01:50:09.680 | until 2012 when I lost,

01:50:11.680 | because that's when like,

01:50:18.960 | I would say like the world felt bad for me at that point.

01:50:25.600 | And that's when you knew that like people were watching

01:50:30.600 | and people were inspired by the loss

01:50:34.160 | because of how much went into that match.

01:50:37.600 | Because, you know, the 99% of us who watched it

01:50:41.160 | thought I won, except for the 1% of the people

01:50:44.600 | who were considered judges at that day in the event.

01:50:47.560 | - But I mean, that's the win or lose

01:50:52.320 | that was a really inspiring match.

01:50:54.280 | - And that's when it dinged that like,

01:50:57.080 | because I don't watch something and really get inspired

01:51:02.120 | by like the person and the act.

01:51:05.260 | It's like, it's an accumulative thing.

01:51:07.480 | But for a lot of people,

01:51:10.200 | like when they watch how much goes into it,

01:51:13.880 | and then when I broke down on the match,

01:51:16.120 | like the amount of suffering that happens

01:51:18.880 | when you lose a match like that.

01:51:20.360 | And then, you know, really coming back and winning in Rio,

01:51:25.360 | there's a trend of people who were inspired

01:51:29.320 | that knew about London.

01:51:31.000 | And then when they found out I won in Rio,

01:51:33.600 | that's when like people like in droves felt like

01:51:36.980 | they could overcome their own personal obstacles

01:51:39.500 | to still achieve something

01:51:41.500 | because they've witnessed somebody who's fallen

01:51:44.240 | and gotten back up.

01:51:45.380 | - Yeah.

01:51:47.380 | - But it's not something that you think about like on the day

01:51:51.580 | it's when you look back and you go, oh, cause and effect.

01:51:56.020 | - I wonder if you can comment on that.

01:51:57.740 | I'm trying to realize and live up to the fact

01:52:01.840 | that there's like young people that come up to me

01:52:05.780 | and I'm starting to realize like certain words I say

01:52:09.340 | will have a long lasting impact on them.

01:52:11.500 | - Yep.

01:52:12.340 | Cause you say it as like, you don't even, it doesn't just.

01:52:15.580 | - Yeah.

01:52:16.420 | - The whim.

01:52:17.240 | - Some of them might come back 30 years later

01:52:19.420 | and a word I said was the reason they quit a thing

01:52:22.860 | and started the new thing that led them

01:52:24.740 | to become their true self, like to find success,

01:52:27.980 | all that kind of stuff.

01:52:29.300 | - On the flip side though,

01:52:30.860 | some people based on the actions that we do today,

01:52:33.900 | even with this cast will alter the course

01:52:36.900 | of their lives forever.

01:52:40.180 | I had a guy one time, was it after London?

01:52:44.900 | And it must've been after London.

01:52:46.980 | He actually found me on Instagram,

01:52:50.220 | wrote me what seemed to be like a dissertation on Instagram

01:52:54.000 | about how much he, I disrespected him 14 years earlier

01:53:00.620 | because I didn't step on a podium to take a picture

01:53:04.260 | after winning a tournament where he bronzed.

01:53:06.980 | - Yeah.

01:53:07.820 | - And I'm thinking to myself, like at the time,

01:53:11.700 | like having dinner with my family

01:53:14.220 | because I had to leave the next morning

01:53:15.820 | was more important to me as a person,

01:53:18.660 | not thinking about who you potentially will become

01:53:23.660 | and the actions of whatever you do today,

01:53:29.740 | if you do become quote unquote famous

01:53:32.300 | or somebody in a spotlight

01:53:34.460 | that that could come back to bite you.

01:53:36.660 | - To me, I don't know about you,

01:53:37.780 | that's super motivating,

01:53:40.660 | like not to be a lesser version of myself ever.

01:53:45.660 | - Yeah.

01:53:47.460 | - Just be on top of your game,

01:53:48.500 | whatever that game is, be on top of your game

01:53:50.260 | when you're interacting with people

01:53:51.540 | and when you're just in your own private life.

01:53:54.100 | I'm trying to make sure that I'm the exactly same person

01:53:56.300 | privately as I am publicly

01:53:58.340 | and like making sure I'm on point.

01:54:00.380 | I see like just hanging out with Joe Rogan a lot.

01:54:03.740 | I see how he's, first of all, the exact same person.

01:54:06.900 | And second, he like walks around

01:54:10.300 | and there's like a huge number of fans

01:54:11.900 | and he'll just take pictures and like, it's very cool.

01:54:15.020 | And it's very cognizant of like certain words he says,

01:54:17.620 | especially young people, like they're going to take that

01:54:20.420 | and that's gonna be a memory for them for a couple of years

01:54:23.380 | that might be influential for the rest of their life.

01:54:25.220 | So it's, I don't know.

01:54:26.900 | That's a cool responsibility, not to fuck it up.

01:54:31.740 | But anyway, I bring all that up to just say, thank you.

01:54:36.260 | So even if you like were frustrated

01:54:40.260 | that you didn't win a medal,

01:54:41.660 | at least you influenced one silly Russian kid

01:54:46.660 | to get into the martial arts.

01:54:48.220 | And what happens when you get into martial arts,

01:54:50.140 | it alters the direction of your life.

01:54:52.020 | Mine for the better.

01:54:54.700 | - Okay, so let's go to London, 2012 Olympics.

01:54:59.700 | One of the most dramatic judo battles of all time, rematch.

01:55:05.300 | So you've reached the semifinals once again

01:55:10.620 | to face the German, Oleg Bischoff.

01:55:13.100 | Do you mind if we step through that match a little bit?

01:55:16.820 | - Welcome to by all means.

01:55:19.620 | I've only ever watched the entire thing one time

01:55:23.220 | just because fucking.

01:55:27.820 | - So for context for the listener,

01:55:32.040 | Travis, first of all, you don't like losing.

01:55:36.380 | I think that's fair to say.

01:55:38.700 | - You know, the hard part with this match

01:55:41.740 | is because I went into this Olympics thinking,

01:55:45.420 | I'm going to fucking win the Olympics.

01:55:47.260 | I'm the best in the world.

01:55:50.380 | I never in my right mind thought,

01:55:53.460 | oh, I'm going to win a medal.

01:55:56.940 | Like that never crossed my mind.

01:56:01.300 | So it's like, I would have rather him just fucking beat me.

01:56:06.300 | Because then I lost.

01:56:11.140 | - So here, the referees, as many people thought,

01:56:15.540 | robbed you of a victory,

01:56:16.980 | but it was also a really close battle.

01:56:18.700 | Again, with many of the elements of frustration as 2008

01:56:22.860 | in terms of strategically and gripping wise.

01:56:25.380 | And it was just a fascinating battle that went to overtime.

01:56:28.720 | So can you set the context?

01:56:30.780 | So what did the bracket look like?

01:56:33.420 | Who were the players here?

01:56:34.980 | Who did you beat leading up to this match?

01:56:38.740 | Like, as you walk onto the mat,

01:56:40.620 | what happened the day before, the hours before,

01:56:43.700 | as you're standing there?

01:56:44.700 | By the way, how bad is it

01:56:46.340 | when two people are standing like this?

01:56:48.580 | - And yes, that fucking guy, man.

01:56:51.360 | But this bracket was really interesting

01:56:57.340 | if you look at like the backstory of 81 kilos,

01:57:00.380 | like leading up to the Olympics, right?

01:57:03.020 | Because at this point in time,

01:57:05.820 | I was inside the top 10 at all times,

01:57:09.980 | eight, seven, five, four, sixes.

01:57:14.140 | I fell out of there sometimes due to injuries,

01:57:16.020 | but I always climbed back in.

01:57:18.500 | There was another guy from Azerbaijan

01:57:23.500 | that was the Olympic champion at 73 kilos in 2008.

01:57:27.300 | And the entire division got rocked by match one

01:57:33.340 | because his first match was with Antoine Valas-Fortier

01:57:39.460 | of Canada.

01:57:40.280 | And everybody who saw the draw come out was like,

01:57:45.540 | the Azerbaijan, he's going to win it.

01:57:47.740 | He's the former Olympic champion.

01:57:49.900 | He's pretty much won most of the major events,

01:57:52.460 | including at 90 kilos, 'cause he just had smooth judo.

01:57:55.540 | And match one rolls around, match two rolls around,

01:58:01.980 | Antoine's in the shoot and he's looking around

01:58:05.340 | and he's like, the Azerbaijani is not here.

01:58:09.100 | Well, where is he?

01:58:10.700 | No joke, he runs into the venue a match before,

01:58:16.460 | throws his gi on and runs onto the Olympic platform.

01:58:19.640 | Loses the Canadian in like a three minute

01:58:23.540 | golden score battle.

01:58:24.820 | - So do you think he warmed up?

01:58:28.460 | - Didn't, he ran.

01:58:29.380 | He literally ran into the venue,

01:58:31.940 | threw his gi on and ran out, did no judo.

01:58:34.640 | And there you see Antoine losing in the quarters.

01:58:39.140 | - So how good was Antoine?

01:58:42.940 | - At this point in time, this is, I believe,

01:58:45.800 | his first international medal was the Olympic games.

01:58:49.660 | So I don't think he'd ever medaled in Paris.

01:58:54.020 | He went into this bracket unranked,

01:58:57.280 | beating the ranked guy first round because he,

01:59:00.900 | I don't know if he missed the bus.

01:59:03.020 | I don't know if he was off his cycle and planned on losing

01:59:06.860 | 'cause he didn't want to test positive.

01:59:08.460 | I don't know.

01:59:09.680 | There's a lot of like questionable things out there

01:59:12.860 | that could have potentially caused him to,

01:59:16.000 | run onto the Olympic platform for a match one.

01:59:20.700 | But it catapulted Antoine into like a belief that like,

01:59:26.760 | I beat the seated guy, I'm ready.

01:59:32.000 | And that was like a turning point in the Canadian's career

01:59:34.600 | just as a whole, right?

01:59:37.600 | That's that everybody has a defining moment.

01:59:41.000 | Like mine was when I beat Bischoff in Dusseldorf

01:59:45.040 | at the Grand Prix for Germany after 2008, right?

01:59:49.800 | I beat the Olympic champion on his home soil

01:59:53.220 | to go win the entire tournament.

01:59:55.480 | So we all have like those moments.

01:59:57.960 | It's just when it happens at the games,

02:00:00.120 | it throws the bracket like into a tailspin

02:00:02.920 | 'cause typically you'd know like who's going to beat who,

02:00:05.640 | where it's going to happen.

02:00:07.680 | And when you look at my quarter final against the Brazilian,

02:00:11.640 | what most people don't know is I was so thankful

02:00:15.400 | I had that match.

02:00:16.500 | Most people would never in a million years be like,

02:00:19.920 | I want to fight the world number one at the Olympic games.

02:00:22.280 | That's what I want to do.

02:00:23.680 | I want to be the eighth seed fighting the world number one

02:00:25.880 | 'cause I'm going to win.

02:00:27.080 | I was pissed off at him.

02:00:29.760 | I was so angry 'cause we were at the Pan Ams

02:00:35.880 | I think the year before and there was a team tournament

02:00:39.040 | and I wanted to fight him.

02:00:40.320 | I had lost the quarters to a Cuban I think

02:00:45.320 | in like the first gripping exchange.

02:00:47.880 | He threw me with a drop sale out of nowhere.

02:00:50.320 | I was pissed.

02:00:51.440 | So I wanted my hands on the Brazilian in the team match.

02:00:54.200 | Well, the Brazilian team is warming up.

02:00:57.640 | So I walk up to him, no joke.

02:00:59.120 | I walked up to him and I go, you're fighting?

02:01:01.560 | And he goes, not today.

02:01:03.800 | And I went, are you fucking kidding me?

02:01:06.160 | I warmed up, I taped up.

02:01:07.520 | You're the only fucking guy I want to fight

02:01:09.480 | and you're going to fucking sit in the stands

02:01:10.680 | and read a goddamn book.

02:01:12.720 | I was so angry.

02:01:13.720 | I carried that anger 'cause I never fought him

02:01:15.640 | until this day.

02:01:17.160 | I was fucking pissed.

02:01:18.280 | I was ready to beat him.

02:01:19.820 | - That's right.

02:01:20.660 | I remember, I forgot he was the world number one.

02:01:23.560 | - Yeah.

02:01:24.400 | - How did, 'cause I remember like being really excited

02:01:27.240 | at that match.

02:01:28.080 | How did you beat him?

02:01:28.900 | - I threw him with two hands on the same side collar

02:01:31.920 | like drop sale.

02:01:32.760 | I cross gripped, I yanked him behind me and I threw him.

02:01:35.680 | - Ipan.

02:01:36.520 | - Was Ari and then the match ended 30 seconds later.

02:01:40.520 | - Yeah.

02:01:41.640 | - I was pumped.

02:01:42.840 | - I was, I thought, I think, okay,

02:01:45.080 | if I'm remembering correctly, I thought, okay,

02:01:47.600 | this guy might actually win gold.

02:01:49.920 | That's what made for me as a spectator,

02:01:55.180 | remembering now the next match that much more like painful.

02:02:00.480 | And then the fans of judo that really followed the sport,

02:02:04.600 | the stats, when you look at the games and my draws,

02:02:08.720 | I had the worst possible draw

02:02:09.760 | as you ever could have imagined.

02:02:11.400 | - Yeah.

02:02:12.220 | - At both London and Rio, I fought the world number one

02:02:15.160 | to get to the final or into the semis or past the semis.

02:02:19.140 | And everybody I fought in the draw

02:02:22.460 | either beat me the last time we fought

02:02:24.680 | or I had never fought before.

02:02:26.180 | So I always held a loss going onto the mat

02:02:29.320 | at the Olympic games.

02:02:30.280 | - How'd you feel about that, by the way?

02:02:31.640 | Like, what were your feelings

02:02:32.960 | about facing the Brazilian first?

02:02:35.400 | - I was so excited.

02:02:36.600 | Well, that was match three.

02:02:38.900 | In London, I fought the Slovenian guy first round

02:02:41.400 | who beat me, where'd he beat me?

02:02:44.960 | Was it the worlds?

02:02:46.280 | Might've been the worlds.

02:02:47.640 | And then Church's Ville, I fought in the second round

02:02:50.400 | who threw me for was Ari in Japan.

02:02:54.800 | And then Leandro, who I don't think I ever fought

02:02:58.160 | who was world number one.

02:02:59.400 | That avoided fighting me at the team tournament.

02:03:02.240 | - But I mean, every single Olympics you've fought

02:03:04.760 | and you really stepped up.

02:03:06.040 | - The only tournament I've ever prepped for.

02:03:09.000 | - Mentally and physically and just the whole thing.

02:03:11.080 | - Yeah.

02:03:11.920 | We never trained through this tournament

02:03:14.260 | like we did for the others, or I would go into it injured.

02:03:18.480 | - All right, well, let's talk about you're standing there

02:03:20.560 | next to that, to the German.

02:03:24.120 | He looked always smaller than you,

02:03:26.360 | but you said like strong.

02:03:28.260 | - Yeah.

02:03:29.100 | - So what are you feeling now, Jimmy Pedro behind you?

02:03:33.720 | - I was ready to take his head off.

02:03:35.520 | - Did you have an idea of what you're gonna do?

02:03:38.880 | Did you try to, you're thinking of winning by Ippon?

02:03:41.800 | Were you thinking like going for big throws

02:03:44.400 | or take him in deep waters, grip him?

02:03:46.920 | Or what were you thinking?

02:03:48.160 | - We were about to have a battle

02:03:50.120 | and I wasn't gonna throw him until he broke mentally.

02:03:54.040 | - Okay.

02:03:57.900 | - There was no like, oh, this is gonna be a clean throw.

02:04:00.960 | That was never, that was never the thought process.

02:04:04.180 | - So here, you know there's going to be a lot of gripping.

02:04:10.680 | So we're seeing a shit ton of gripping.

02:04:13.220 | - And right here, he throws it, bang, close fisted.

02:04:18.500 | - You got a lot of adrenaline.

02:04:21.780 | You seem calm.

02:04:22.620 | - I'm pissed.

02:04:23.480 | - You're pissed.

02:04:24.320 | - Like, are you serious? - You don't look pissed.

02:04:25.140 | You just look like.

02:04:26.240 | - I'm looking at the ref like,

02:04:27.820 | 'cause he keeps telling me to get up.

02:04:28.740 | I'm like, I have blood running down my face.

02:04:30.940 | I go, okay, here, see blood.

02:04:36.160 | See, and he's like, oh yeah, go fix it.

02:04:38.020 | - And that's on your eyebrow somewhere.

02:04:40.000 | - Yeah, he split it just underneath it.

02:04:42.280 | - So you split your eyebrow.

02:04:43.400 | And so in judo, they don't, they're allergic to blood

02:04:46.840 | probably for a good reason, but they,

02:04:48.880 | so now you have to try to figure out how to tape that up.

02:04:53.440 | - Yeah.

02:04:54.320 | - Which already sets up one of the most bad-ass

02:04:57.220 | looks in judo history.

02:04:59.780 | - First 15 seconds busted my eye open.

02:05:04.100 | - Was that getting in the way of your eyesight at all or no?

02:05:06.340 | - No.

02:05:07.180 | - Damn, he looks good at gripping.

02:05:10.740 | How difficult is it to get a grip on that guy?

02:05:12.940 | - Very.

02:05:13.780 | See, like I'm struggling just to get my hand in the collar

02:05:16.660 | and he wasn't even blocking it.

02:05:18.260 | - Is he being cagey?

02:05:19.460 | - Yeah.

02:05:20.300 | - Remember like, is he interested in offense?

02:05:22.540 | - Nope, he's a very cagey, you know, methodical player.

02:05:27.320 | Like he never opens himself up.

02:05:30.320 | - Yeah.

02:05:31.920 | There you go, you grab the leg as part of a combination.

02:05:34.520 | - Yeah.

02:05:35.360 | - And people have told me

02:05:37.480 | that he's actually very good at throwing people.

02:05:39.840 | He just doesn't, so, but he just doesn't show it at these.

02:05:43.400 | - Nope, 'cause he doesn't care how he wins,

02:05:46.640 | he cares that he wins.

02:05:48.320 | - Yeah.

02:05:49.160 | - Which makes him very difficult to beat

02:05:51.960 | 'cause he knows when you've strategized to do that,

02:05:55.360 | where you look at the rule set

02:05:56.560 | and you develop a plan to get through the matches,

02:05:59.480 | then you've really got to figure out a way

02:06:01.920 | to get that person off that game plan.

02:06:04.520 | You know, whether you get a head by a penalty or something.

02:06:07.420 | Right there.

02:06:10.220 | Like, he wouldn't give me the sleeve,

02:06:13.800 | so I grabbed all of his fingers.

02:06:15.840 | - Oh, nice.

02:06:17.160 | In which, open like this way or?

02:06:21.160 | - I grabbed them the other way and I started lifting them.

02:06:23.960 | - Ah, yeah.

02:06:24.800 | - Like I start, like reverse playing Mercy.

02:06:26.920 | - Like this, yeah.

02:06:28.320 | (laughing)

02:06:29.160 | Oh, this is great.

02:06:30.560 | - 'Cause he wouldn't give me the sleeve

02:06:31.680 | and I needed an attack.

02:06:33.040 | And I'm like, okay, I can't hold onto this forever

02:06:36.120 | 'cause that judge is gonna see it,

02:06:37.240 | so let me just do a quick throw here

02:06:38.740 | while I'm using the fingers in the Mercy grip.

02:06:40.360 | - He's holding on and you kind of wrist it out.

02:06:43.820 | - Yeah.

02:06:44.660 | And then he goes to get up and I go to get on top

02:06:49.760 | and right here.

02:06:50.800 | - Nice.

02:06:52.640 | - That elbow.

02:06:53.480 | - You get him?

02:06:54.300 | You got him.

02:06:55.140 | - Yeah, it looks like I elbow him.

02:06:57.400 | - Did you do it kind of?

02:06:58.560 | - No, I didn't even, at the time,

02:07:00.720 | I never knew this happened.

02:07:02.240 | - Yeah.

02:07:03.080 | - Until after I watched this like three or four years later.

02:07:06.260 | Didn't even know, I didn't even feel it.

02:07:08.700 | - Look at that.

02:07:09.540 | So he's legitimately angry here.

02:07:11.000 | - Yeah, he's angry.

02:07:11.960 | And of course, you can't, you can't move.

02:07:15.700 | Why would you move?

02:07:16.540 | - Look at this, look at this.

02:07:17.400 | This moment right there is gold.

02:07:19.160 | If you're not watching this on video, you're missing out.

02:07:21.400 | You do, you never get this in Judo.

02:07:23.120 | - No, I don't know if that's ever happened.

02:07:25.440 | - That little face off.

02:07:26.880 | - Especially on a stage like this.

02:07:29.160 | - The reference.

02:07:30.280 | - And then he brings us in to like talk to us

02:07:32.200 | and he's like, "Hey, we're good, right?

02:07:33.760 | Like you guys aren't about to do

02:07:34.880 | what I think you're about to do."

02:07:36.200 | (laughing)

02:07:38.200 | - You put up your hands.

02:07:39.040 | - And he's like, "Hey, shake hands again."

02:07:39.920 | 'Cause the first time we did it, that wasn't good enough.

02:07:41.880 | Well, you got to do it again.

02:07:43.320 | The heartbreaking part about this

02:07:47.380 | and why the IJF switched it to an unlimited golden score,

02:07:51.260 | because we fought five minutes

02:07:53.600 | through the entire normal part of the match.

02:07:57.680 | And then we did the entire overtime period of three minutes.

02:08:02.000 | Not one penalty was given.

02:08:04.340 | No gripping infractions, no false attacks,

02:08:07.080 | like no stalling.

02:08:07.920 | - That's great.

02:08:08.860 | Nobody was really backing up.

02:08:10.360 | - Yep.

02:08:11.200 | - I mean, it was, you know.

02:08:12.020 | So what was Jimmy telling you here?

02:08:13.800 | Or was he talking to you at all?

02:08:16.560 | - He's not allowed to talk during medical things

02:08:19.580 | and my nose is now broken.

02:08:21.940 | - But he's also, oh, the nose is broken.

02:08:23.940 | From what?

02:08:25.140 | - I cut an elbow from him.

02:08:26.620 | Glad his face is clean.

02:08:29.500 | That's fun.

02:08:30.980 | And right here, like I was pissed.

02:08:32.780 | I was so angry at the medic because he's fumbling around

02:08:35.860 | and I'm like, "My whole plan

02:08:37.900 | is to break the German mentally."

02:08:39.660 | - Yeah.

02:08:40.500 | - You got to hurry up with the tape, man.

02:08:41.580 | Like he's supposed to be tired.

02:08:43.460 | Like he's not supposed to be resting.

02:08:46.120 | - And is Jimmy yelling here?

02:08:48.280 | - He can't.

02:08:49.400 | - No, not here, but during the match.

02:08:51.600 | - Yeah.

02:08:52.440 | And you can see, I just take it from him

02:08:53.840 | and I'm like, "Give it to me.

02:08:54.840 | I'm going to do it myself.

02:08:55.780 | Get out of here."

02:08:56.620 | - How scared is the medic?

02:08:59.880 | It's like this guy's going to kill me.

02:09:01.600 | - He can't even tear the tape.

02:09:03.200 | - Look how nervous he is.

02:09:04.540 | (laughing)

02:09:06.600 | - We made fun of him for this so much throughout the years.

02:09:10.940 | Still do to this day.

02:09:12.400 | All right, here we go.

02:09:13.360 | - Oh, you look great.

02:09:14.240 | - Get in here.

02:09:15.840 | Can't really see, don't care.

02:09:17.840 | - Was there some outcome in your mind

02:09:19.820 | that you could possibly beat him on the ground

02:09:21.340 | with a submission or a pin?

02:09:22.660 | You knew you're going to have to throw him.

02:09:24.280 | - I knew I was going to have to,

02:09:26.060 | if I was going to throw him or armbar him or pin him,

02:09:29.940 | whatever the case may be,

02:09:31.900 | it was going to be his mental, like,

02:09:34.960 | "I'm just tired of this."

02:09:36.420 | - Yeah.

02:09:37.260 | - Right?

02:09:38.080 | He's too cagey of a player.

02:09:38.920 | He's too experienced.

02:09:41.160 | You know, he has to mentally make that choice

02:09:43.360 | to give that inch.

02:09:44.860 | And then you just have to be ready to take it.

02:09:47.240 | So I was just waiting for it.

02:09:48.740 | - And so now this is four minutes in, one minute left.

02:09:53.380 | - Yeah.

02:09:54.220 | - Oh, is that in your game plan two potential,

02:09:57.780 | like, assuming he sacrificed throws to him?

02:10:00.360 | - 'Cause the whole point of that technique

02:10:03.460 | and the sacrifice throws wasn't because

02:10:05.360 | I thought I was going to throw him,

02:10:07.220 | but it disrupts the pattern enough to, like,

02:10:11.780 | get him to make a potential mistake.

02:10:13.780 | - Yeah.

02:10:14.620 | - Like, see, he should have gotten a Shido there,

02:10:16.760 | hands in the face.

02:10:18.380 | But again, that's just part of Judo.

02:10:20.300 | - Yeah.

02:10:21.360 | - He poked me in the eyeball.

02:10:22.820 | - This is a rough match.

02:10:25.400 | Does he act at all or no?

02:10:27.740 | Like, was he acting frustrated or anything like that?

02:10:30.100 | Or is it all, like, he's acting for the ref,

02:10:33.400 | you know what I mean?

02:10:34.240 | Like, oh, that, all that kind of stuff.

02:10:35.880 | You're just going in hard, nonstop.

02:10:38.820 | - Yeah.

02:10:39.660 | - Like, angry, aggressive, feeling cardio here at all?

02:10:43.660 | Like-

02:10:44.500 | - Nope, I don't, I didn't get tired during this.

02:10:46.980 | - And then-

02:10:47.820 | - I'm just always pressing forward.

02:10:48.780 | - Time runs out.

02:10:50.260 | - Now we're into golden score.

02:10:51.860 | 12 minutes and 38 seconds later.

02:10:54.620 | Yeah, you think about every Judo exchange, right?

02:10:56.860 | Every time we grip up, every time we attack,

02:10:59.340 | sometimes it can take longer to get back to the line

02:11:01.420 | than the entire exchange.

02:11:02.700 | - Yeah.

02:11:03.740 | So the more aggression, the more exchanges you have,

02:11:06.120 | the longer the time stretches.

02:11:09.620 | And then here, the six seconds left in golden score.

02:11:12.700 | Your tape is now yellow and red.

02:11:18.580 | - Yeah.

02:11:20.300 | - With sweat and blood, literally, and time is out.

02:11:23.240 | Now, what are you thinking here?

02:11:24.380 | Do you think you won the match?

02:11:25.940 | - I thought I won the match a minute ago.

02:11:29.520 | I remember thinking to myself, like,

02:11:32.740 | if this goes to the flags, I won.

02:11:35.700 | No doubt in my mind.

02:11:39.580 | Because I felt like the whole time,

02:11:42.580 | like I was going to him.

02:11:44.860 | - Yeah.

02:11:45.700 | - Right?

02:11:46.520 | He was never coming at me.

02:11:48.020 | - Yeah, that's the way it felt.

02:11:49.980 | I mean, like, that's the way it felt body language wise,

02:11:53.020 | just the intensity, how fast you're moving towards him.

02:11:55.860 | You're constantly going for throws.

02:11:57.620 | - Now, if you want to rewind that,

02:12:02.360 | we can talk about the whole,

02:12:03.700 | 'cause it's a part of this clip.

02:12:05.060 | - So wait, wait a minute.

02:12:07.020 | They all went blue.

02:12:08.460 | - They all did.

02:12:09.300 | - So in judo, there's three referees,

02:12:12.180 | two on the side, one in the center,

02:12:13.820 | and they all vote on--

02:12:14.660 | - And now let's pause it right there.

02:12:16.220 | Now, the way this is supposed to work,

02:12:18.300 | they raise their flags, they do like a one, two count,

02:12:21.920 | and then on three, they all raise it together.

02:12:24.180 | - Yeah.

02:12:25.020 | - Now, as a little pretext to this entire match,

02:12:28.300 | up until this point, not one match at the Olympic Games

02:12:32.420 | has ever been a split decision.

02:12:34.820 | Meaning out of three people,

02:12:37.460 | not one of them voted against the other group members.

02:12:40.400 | So they were all unified blue or all unified white.

02:12:44.580 | - Yeah.

02:12:45.420 | - Right?

02:12:46.240 | - Which is statistically difficult to imagine.

02:12:49.260 | - Yes.

02:12:50.660 | It's almost like they had a referee meeting and said,

02:12:53.940 | "It's better for the Olympics to never have a split."

02:12:57.060 | - Yeah.

02:12:58.340 | - Okay.

02:12:59.180 | - So the question becomes,

02:13:02.900 | if you would click that frame by frame,

02:13:06.520 | right?

02:13:07.360 | So right now we have all the refs with their flags out,

02:13:11.820 | and then click that.

02:13:13.020 | - So the middle--

02:13:14.180 | - Middle guy is, he is all the way up.

02:13:17.100 | - All the way up.

02:13:17.940 | - The other side judges haven't moved.

02:13:20.320 | We now have one side ref all the way up.

02:13:23.700 | Then we have a third side ref all the way up.

02:13:26.680 | - Yeah.

02:13:29.460 | So there's a time point when the middle guy

02:13:32.380 | has the flag all the way up.

02:13:33.780 | - If not 80, 90% of the way there.

02:13:35.940 | - Yeah.

02:13:36.780 | - Then the other one does, and then the third one goes.

02:13:39.500 | So now the question becomes, who really,

02:13:44.820 | like did the outside refs really have an opinion?

02:13:47.320 | Or were they told to wait for the center one to start,

02:13:54.260 | and then lift whatever flag the center ref picked?

02:13:59.420 | - Yeah, this is very unfortunate.

02:14:01.500 | - Because--

02:14:02.340 | - It's very, honestly, it's very possible

02:14:03.700 | that they had this meeting.

02:14:06.060 | This is the problem with the Olympics.

02:14:09.940 | They sometimes, it's also the problem

02:14:12.580 | in the Soviet Union with communism.

02:14:14.220 | You think the committee knows what's good for the people,

02:14:17.900 | and so on, so they decide universally,

02:14:20.740 | as opposed to letting the magic of the Olympics

02:14:23.180 | be what it is.

02:14:25.380 | But nevertheless, in this case,

02:14:28.540 | the center ref decided blue.

02:14:31.240 | Like what do you think, do you think it's just a shitty call,

02:14:34.820 | or like--

02:14:36.580 | - He has the right to pick, but the problem is,

02:14:40.020 | is the other two, I don't think did.

02:14:43.540 | - Yeah, so, and that's the--

02:14:45.460 | - And so, when you do this frame by frame again, right?

02:14:49.940 | Like I can see from my own perspective two of the refs,

02:14:54.340 | and I see them both blue, right?

02:14:57.020 | So when you fast forward that a little bit

02:14:59.400 | to get to like all the flags, I see the two go blue,

02:15:03.100 | and I go, I look over, and I look at the other guy,

02:15:06.220 | and I'm like, really?

02:15:08.500 | - Yeah.

02:15:09.340 | - All three?

02:15:10.740 | I fought for eight minutes, and I can't even get a vote?

02:15:13.620 | I didn't even get a penalty.

02:15:15.860 | I can't even get a vote?

02:15:17.820 | And that's when I broke.

02:15:19.020 | I like, oh, I couldn't believe it.

02:15:24.600 | And I'm not gonna lie, he looked shocked.

02:15:32.700 | - And here you're underneath. - I'm just crying.

02:15:34.820 | - You're crying.

02:15:35.660 | - Literally crying. - You're crying.

02:15:36.740 | This is it. - Yeah.

02:15:38.260 | - But I think it's the end. - That was such

02:15:39.100 | an amazing match.

02:15:39.940 | That was such a war.

02:15:41.160 | I mean, both people can't believe what happened.

02:15:45.500 | - I know, that's the, and like, honestly,

02:15:48.220 | I wish we had the rules that we do today

02:15:50.720 | as far as the unlimited golden score,

02:15:53.020 | because I would have loved to have seen

02:15:56.420 | what would have happened.

02:15:57.580 | - What was Jimmy saying here to you?

02:15:59.460 | I mean, I guess there's nothing to say.

02:16:02.420 | - Yeah, he was kind of apologizing

02:16:06.460 | for the way the scores went.

02:16:11.260 | - 'Cause he knows how badly you want it.

02:16:13.220 | He saw the match.

02:16:14.660 | - And he felt I deserve to win it.

02:16:16.580 | - Yeah. - Based on like,

02:16:18.180 | you know, what happened.

02:16:19.240 | - But he probably, with all his experience,

02:16:21.060 | knows that this is what the Olympics are about.

02:16:24.340 | The refs sometimes. - Yep.

02:16:26.060 | - I mean, that's the magic of it, man.

02:16:27.800 | - Well, and at the same time,

02:16:29.260 | we're at, we're in the Olympic semi-final

02:16:34.140 | in a sport that's dominated by certain continents.

02:16:37.860 | And when you look at the three refs on the mat,

02:16:40.500 | they're all European.

02:16:41.600 | - Yeah.

02:16:43.740 | - You're telling me there couldn't have been one Pan Am,

02:16:45.380 | one African, one Oceania, you know, different,

02:16:49.040 | like why'd they all have to be European?

02:16:51.420 | - But to be fair, it's a back to your sauna story.

02:16:55.620 | - Correct. - Is that you've dealt

02:16:56.460 | with this stuff before.

02:16:57.780 | - And you've won over this stuff before.

02:17:00.420 | - And that's why like I was broken for life.

02:17:02.340 | - And you thought you won here, that was.

02:17:04.420 | - And when I hindered on that for a year and a half,

02:17:09.300 | like I couldn't even stand, I was done.

02:17:11.300 | But I'm pretty sure there's a slow motion replay on this

02:17:15.880 | when I watched it, yeah, he's all excited, that fucking guy.

02:17:18.680 | Yeah, and he's all happy.

02:17:20.580 | - It's relief, right? - Yeah, hey, hi guys.

02:17:23.600 | I did it.

02:17:26.020 | - Yeah, so here's like slow motion replay

02:17:31.020 | of the flag being raised, the heart being broken,

02:17:33.940 | Travis just bending over.

02:17:35.060 | - Right here, watch, watch his reaction.

02:17:37.060 | You could see his mouth like open in awe, like really?

02:17:41.740 | - Yeah.

02:17:42.580 | - And he's looking at two refs just like I am.

02:17:44.620 | He didn't celebrate until he looked at the third one

02:17:46.940 | and said, "Oh, all three."

02:17:49.100 | - So you think he knew he lost?

02:17:50.580 | - I think in his head, like,

02:17:52.360 | I don't think he really believed he was winning.

02:17:55.460 | - He did enough to win, yeah.

02:17:57.180 | - Yeah, because when his mouth draw like,

02:18:00.120 | "Oh yeah, hey, all three,"

02:18:03.900 | like that's not really the reaction you would give.

02:18:07.380 | - Yeah, I mean, that was one of the greatest matches

02:18:12.140 | I've ever seen.

02:18:12.980 | I mean, obviously it's painful for you,

02:18:14.340 | but that pain, first of all, sets the stage for 2016.

02:18:19.340 | But even without that, I think it was just a beautiful story

02:18:24.700 | at the Olympics.

02:18:25.540 | You've still did incredible job at the Olympics.

02:18:28.580 | You stood toe to toe.

02:18:30.300 | - I think in hindsight, having lost that match

02:18:35.300 | did more for me and more for the sport.

02:18:38.640 | - Yeah, absolutely.

02:18:40.460 | - As a whole, me losing that match.

02:18:42.620 | - Yeah, I mean, stories aren't about winning,

02:18:46.100 | stories are about the fighting.

02:18:48.020 | So, and that made one hell of a story.

02:18:50.180 | But it also has to do with,

02:18:54.380 | treachery is probably not the right word to use.

02:18:59.220 | It's probably the wrong word entirely to use.

02:19:02.540 | But because of the conflict in the match

02:19:06.660 | and because of how the refs handled the match

02:19:09.780 | there at the end, it created controversy

02:19:13.100 | that was spoken about for months on world media.

02:19:18.020 | I remember articles being written about the Olympics

02:19:21.260 | and the reffing and how it was corrupt.

02:19:24.140 | And that match was one of them.

02:19:26.980 | There was another one in fencing

02:19:28.540 | where something happened with the timer

02:19:30.980 | where one of the fencers,

02:19:33.840 | I guess what happens in fencing,

02:19:35.200 | the timer resets up a second if it's down.

02:19:39.820 | So, the fencer got one second played out,

02:19:42.620 | I think like 27 or 28 times and then one on like 30.

02:19:48.260 | So, there was like clock fixing for fencing,

02:19:51.380 | there was this match that I think just got publicity,

02:19:54.500 | good or bad, publicity is publicity for judo.

02:19:57.420 | - And then you came back to,

02:20:01.260 | I mean, this is the hard thing after this heartbreak

02:20:03.380 | to step up and continue fighting, right?

02:20:06.060 | - I really, really struggled,

02:20:09.100 | like unbelievably struggled from 2012 to like 2014.

02:20:14.100 | I almost quit numerous times.

02:20:16.100 | I was so angry.

02:20:17.940 | I mean, at one point I got so mad at the IJF

02:20:21.900 | feeling like they were fucking me every step of the way.

02:20:24.820 | I threw a water bottle at a referee after a match.

02:20:28.660 | I cussed out a referee one time on a mat.

02:20:30.660 | I got suspended from the sport

02:20:32.300 | because I was just so angry at that point in time.

02:20:36.060 | - And IJF is the International Judo Federation

02:20:39.100 | and they're, are they the people that supply the referees

02:20:41.640 | basically like the certification?

02:20:42.480 | - They kind of run the sport, they run the sport.

02:20:44.620 | - On a global scale.

02:20:45.620 | - So you sent a few emails, 2014, '15, basically quitting.

02:20:52.620 | One of them said, "I'm mentally and physically broken."

02:20:57.220 | Another said, with a subject line, "I'm done."

02:21:00.460 | - Yep.

02:21:01.300 | - The weight cuts didn't break you.

02:21:02.700 | - No.

02:21:03.540 | - So if this broke you,

02:21:06.780 | you were really going through a hard time.

02:21:09.540 | - I was like, you know what?

02:21:10.980 | We're just gonna like dumb it down a little bit

02:21:13.100 | and get some wins under our belt.

02:21:14.500 | I'm gonna go to a World Cup,

02:21:16.300 | which is like three stages down or four stages down

02:21:20.100 | from like the Olympic games.

02:21:22.860 | Like this should be like a cakewalk,

02:21:24.540 | like making the final of a World Cup

02:21:26.100 | should be a walk in the park.

02:21:27.740 | I show up, I barely beat a 16 year old kid.

02:21:33.700 | - Yeah.

02:21:34.580 | - Barely.

02:21:35.860 | Then I got smoked in the second round.

02:21:37.820 | I got thrown three times.

02:21:39.300 | I was like, I'm fucking done.

02:21:42.420 | They changed all the fucking rules.

02:21:44.340 | They fucked me out of the Olympics.

02:21:46.100 | Like, what am I supposed to do?

02:21:48.500 | And it was at that moment when I wrote the email,

02:21:52.540 | where I remember sitting at a bar,

02:21:55.580 | I don't drink by the way,

02:21:56.420 | but I was sitting at a bar at the hotel, sending this email.

02:22:00.680 | And I got a response back from Jimmy and he goes,

02:22:04.260 | "Well, just stay for the training camp, go to Germany.

02:22:08.500 | "And then whatever happens, don't worry about it.

02:22:10.560 | "We'll talk when you get home."

02:22:12.420 | I was like, fuck that, fuck these people, fuck the rules.

02:22:16.100 | I don't fucking care anymore.

02:22:17.300 | I'm just going to do Judo the way I want to do Judo.

02:22:19.580 | If I fucking get shitoed out, fuck them.

02:22:22.940 | That was my response.

02:22:24.900 | - Can you become an Olympic champion?

02:22:26.940 | Can you become an Olympic medalist?

02:22:28.480 | Would that kind of thing, can you think or no?

02:22:30.100 | Was that, that's counterproductive?

02:22:32.260 | - Yeah.

02:22:33.100 | - Okay.

02:22:33.920 | Just checking because maybe that's also liberating.

02:22:37.740 | - The expectation was no longer that Travis

02:22:40.100 | is going to win this tournament.

02:22:41.260 | The expectation was Travis is going to come home

02:22:43.820 | and be fucking pissed off.

02:22:44.780 | We're going to have to figure out how to manage

02:22:47.220 | a pissed off person that's trying to quit

02:22:49.220 | that shouldn't be quitting.

02:22:50.880 | And--

02:22:51.720 | - Do people still believe that you can be a medalist again?

02:22:54.380 | - Yeah.

02:22:55.220 | - Like who believed that?

02:22:56.060 | - Jimmy believed it, the team managers believed it.

02:22:58.820 | Some of my teammates still believed it.

02:23:00.860 | My training partner still did.

02:23:03.660 | But they're not the ones that are cutting the weight,

02:23:06.880 | flying around, feeling like, you know,

02:23:10.680 | all of your judo is now null and void, right?

02:23:12.940 | Because at this point, they took away leg grabs entirely.

02:23:17.020 | You couldn't break a grip with two hands, right?

02:23:20.100 | The meta of judo has changed again, right?

02:23:23.660 | So I got fucked out of it.

02:23:26.060 | They took away how I did judo again.

02:23:28.180 | And now it just got more difficult.

02:23:30.740 | So when I'm sitting in the hotel and I'm sending this email,

02:23:34.740 | I remember being at the training camp, like,

02:23:36.940 | I was like, I don't even fucking care what the rules are.

02:23:40.300 | I'm just going to fucking throw people.

02:23:41.840 | I don't even care if I'm cheating.

02:23:43.400 | Doesn't matter to me, I'll just play stupid.

02:23:44.960 | - Yeah.

02:23:45.880 | - Right?

02:23:46.720 | So I just started going back and doing judo

02:23:48.680 | without the leg grabs,

02:23:50.080 | but with all the same gripping that I was doing beforehand.

02:23:54.440 | And then when I got to Germany, I was like,

02:23:57.520 | I don't fucking care.

02:23:58.640 | I was like, if I got to cheat to win,

02:24:00.800 | then I got to fucking cheat to win.

02:24:03.060 | If I get cheetoed out, like, then I get cheetoed out.

02:24:06.240 | And I won Germany.

02:24:09.080 | - Ah, which event in Germany?

02:24:10.980 | - The German Grand Prix, which was--

02:24:12.420 | - The German Grand Prix, yeah, yeah.

02:24:13.720 | - A week after losing the world cup,

02:24:16.140 | because I was trying to do judo around the new rule set.

02:24:20.340 | I wasn't just trying to do judo, right?

02:24:23.220 | Because when you get to the highest level,

02:24:25.820 | your game tends to morph around,

02:24:28.680 | you know, what can you can or cannot get away with.

02:24:33.060 | I was more focused on trying to figure out what I can

02:24:35.780 | and can't get away with.

02:24:37.060 | And I stopped actively doing judo.

02:24:39.200 | Once I said, fuck whatever the rule changes are,

02:24:42.600 | I'm just going to keep doing judo

02:24:43.840 | the way I know how to do judo.

02:24:45.360 | And if I get a penalty, then so be it.

02:24:47.260 | - And so that win, that started the road back?

02:24:51.800 | - The road back, yeah.

02:24:52.960 | 'Cause now it's like, I don't care if you penalize me

02:24:57.600 | or not, because I'm going to throw that guy anyways.

02:25:00.880 | I'm going to beat him anyways.

02:25:02.520 | And if I get a cheeto for doing something wrong,

02:25:05.380 | then I'll just stop doing that one thing

02:25:07.680 | and just keep doing all the other things that they told me

02:25:09.680 | I probably shouldn't be doing,

02:25:10.800 | but they're not calling me on it.

02:25:11.880 | So I'm just going to keep doing it.

02:25:13.520 | - Well, you found yourself at the 2016 Olympics.

02:25:20.200 | Was that ever a doubt by the way,

02:25:23.160 | after this, after 2014 in Germany?

02:25:27.040 | - I had a lot of doubt after the concussion in 2015.

02:25:31.880 | I remember when I first came back

02:25:34.820 | after four months of nothingness,

02:25:37.860 | that even trying to train,

02:25:41.540 | the room would start to tilt a whorl on me.

02:25:44.700 | And then when I finally got over that

02:25:46.340 | and I could start doing things again,

02:25:47.700 | I stepped on the mat for the Pan Ams and I was like,

02:25:51.260 | drowning's not the right word,

02:25:54.220 | but everything was being done in such a slow motion.

02:25:57.540 | I had sandbags everywhere that I just couldn't keep up.

02:26:02.240 | - Like mental fog.

02:26:04.460 | - Yeah, I remember fighting the Brazilian

02:26:07.020 | for in the semifinal of Pan Ams.

02:26:10.620 | I was halfway through this match and I'm just like,

02:26:13.780 | eyes roll up, I'm like, I'm just going to fucking wing it.

02:26:16.380 | And I just fucking winged it

02:26:17.220 | and I got countered and thrown free pwn.

02:26:18.980 | And I was like, I don't even know what to do.

02:26:21.940 | And I couldn't even think clearly.

02:26:24.420 | And that's when I was like, I may not come back.

02:26:27.540 | - Yeah, you don't have control

02:26:29.260 | over how to come back from this.

02:26:30.380 | It's just your mind and it's not operating correctly.

02:26:34.480 | - I can like, oh, my right hand's not working

02:26:36.780 | because it's fractured.

02:26:37.760 | Let me figure out a way I can not use that.

02:26:39.360 | Like when your mind's not working,

02:26:40.960 | it's the one thing you need.

02:26:44.320 | Like you gotta have it.

02:26:45.760 | So then I can work through anything else.

02:26:47.520 | I needed that though.

02:26:49.160 | - And so how did you come back from that time?

02:26:51.480 | - That's when I wrote another email

02:26:52.880 | and I was like, I'm fucking off team USA.

02:26:55.080 | I'm not fucking, I'm all done with USA judo.

02:26:57.480 | I'm done with the tour.

02:26:58.600 | I was like, I quit.

02:27:00.160 | I'm gonna go do my own thing.

02:27:01.900 | And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

02:27:03.560 | Can't quit now.

02:27:04.740 | The Olympics is in like a year.

02:27:06.020 | Like, let's talk about this again

02:27:07.340 | 'cause it's the second time I've tried to quit

02:27:08.900 | in like two years, right?

02:27:10.740 | So then we sit down in Jimmy's office and he's like,

02:27:14.940 | whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't quit.

02:27:16.740 | You're gonna kick yourself if you don't go to Rio.

02:27:19.300 | I'm telling you right now, don't do that to yourself.

02:27:22.180 | Let's figure out a way of like doing this.

02:27:23.820 | And I was like, because when we trained before,

02:27:27.060 | we did it at a unit, right?

02:27:29.140 | We all went to the same tournaments.

02:27:30.560 | We all went to the same training camps.

02:27:31.960 | And I'm like, you guys are treating me

02:27:33.840 | like I'm the same player I used to be.

02:27:36.080 | I go, I don't, I'm not operating

02:27:38.420 | at the level you think I'm operating at.

02:27:40.080 | I go, I can't do that.

02:27:41.480 | And he goes, well, what do you wanna do?

02:27:43.840 | And I go, I'll tell you what, Jimmy,

02:27:45.360 | you know I'm being serious

02:27:46.500 | because my answer is something

02:27:48.240 | you'd never would have expected.

02:27:49.680 | I go, why don't you just send me to Japan for three weeks?

02:27:52.600 | And he was like, really?

02:27:54.600 | I hated Japan.

02:27:55.960 | I refused to go there up until this point.

02:27:59.300 | But I was like, I have to get to a point

02:28:01.540 | where I can get so tired and get through it

02:28:05.780 | that like my Judo will come back

02:28:07.940 | and my body will learn again.

02:28:09.460 | - And when you say Japan, you mean the Kodokan?

02:28:12.500 | Like what's-- - Tokai.

02:28:14.060 | - Tokai, is that the highest level of Judo?

02:28:16.700 | - It's one of the top colleges in the world, yeah.

02:28:18.820 | - And that's so you can go with the best people in the world.

02:28:21.320 | You can go to war with them, top level, like strong players.

02:28:24.580 | - Yeah, there's a lot of very strong players.

02:28:27.220 | There's a lot of middle class players

02:28:29.540 | and there's a lot of volume of rounds.

02:28:32.100 | - So you value all of it, the middle class too, like the--

02:28:35.100 | - Because when you're tired,

02:28:35.940 | like you can't just train in areas

02:28:38.360 | where you're battling for every inch.

02:28:41.700 | At some point you have to be successful, right?

02:28:46.020 | So you still under duress and under strain

02:28:49.020 | and through exhaustion,

02:28:51.140 | you still have to have the ability to score.

02:28:53.780 | Well, if you're training with the best people

02:28:55.220 | in the world all the time,

02:28:56.100 | you're not always going to be able to score.

02:28:58.220 | So you still need those B-level players

02:29:00.340 | in order to really develop again.

02:29:02.940 | - What is it like, if you can comment briefly

02:29:06.140 | on the training in Japan,

02:29:08.780 | what's it like to go into a different place?

02:29:11.740 | You probably don't speak the language that well.

02:29:14.100 | Like, is there an isolation aspect to it?

02:29:17.060 | Is it like purely about Judo now?

02:29:19.980 | - I really want it to be isolated,

02:29:22.060 | no training partners, no coaches.

02:29:24.740 | I wanted to get back to my roots

02:29:27.020 | and just learn how to fight again.

02:29:28.720 | I don't want to figure out how to beat the German.

02:29:32.500 | I don't want to figure out

02:29:33.940 | how I can develop a new entry into my SAO

02:29:38.300 | against whoever it may be.

02:29:41.340 | It's not-- - You just want to fight hard.

02:29:43.300 | - I just want to fight.

02:29:44.140 | Let me get back to fighting.

02:29:45.300 | Let me get back to like the root of who I am.

02:29:48.580 | - What were those sessions like?

02:29:49.940 | What were we talking about?

02:29:51.020 | Five minute rounds?

02:29:51.980 | Like what, how many?

02:29:53.300 | - Six minute rounds, 30 minute breaks, 14 rounds a session.

02:29:57.020 | - Sorry, what's the 30 minute break?

02:30:00.300 | - 30 second break.

02:30:01.580 | - 30 second break. - 30 second break.

02:30:03.480 | - Sorry, what, 14?

02:30:06.420 | - 14 rounds.

02:30:07.260 | - 14 rounds.

02:30:08.220 | - Every day.

02:30:09.620 | - Every day.

02:30:10.600 | - Five days a week,

02:30:13.500 | and then 11 or 12 rounds on Saturday,

02:30:17.340 | plus weightlifting, plus running.

02:30:19.780 | - Plus weightlifting, plus running.

02:30:21.560 | So those are hard rounds.

02:30:23.620 | What's it feel like to go through that?

02:30:25.380 | So you have a bunch of, just a sea of black belts,

02:30:29.260 | Japan, I'm sure they're hunting you a little bit.

02:30:33.740 | - Depending on who you are.

02:30:35.340 | I was hunted a little bit.

02:30:36.540 | Like I didn't really struggle because of who I am.

02:30:39.700 | Them as college athletes,

02:30:41.820 | they want to show to their coaches

02:30:44.260 | and their higher players like,

02:30:47.140 | oh, look, I can throw the world number whoever.

02:30:50.160 | But if you're just a guy who shows up,

02:30:52.260 | like them beating you doesn't provide any value

02:30:56.060 | or raise their status.

02:30:57.220 | - No, but you're status raising.

02:30:59.820 | - Yes.

02:31:00.980 | So I was actually like in a situation

02:31:04.420 | where nobody was watching me

02:31:06.620 | and I was free to just battle at my own will.

02:31:09.260 | - Okay.

02:31:10.260 | - Which is what it was about for me.

02:31:12.580 | - And you just push yourself.

02:31:14.380 | - 'Cause I knew how to do that.

02:31:15.660 | I know how to push myself.

02:31:17.980 | - Are you, when you're doing these 14 rounds,

02:31:19.980 | is every single one a standalone thing for you?

02:31:23.600 | - Yep.

02:31:24.440 | - So you're not trying to pace yourself?

02:31:25.800 | - Nope.

02:31:26.640 | Each one is to as much exhaustion as I can get.

02:31:29.680 | - But then there must be ones where like it's like round nine

02:31:33.280 | where you're got nothing left.

02:31:35.160 | - Better figure out how to score.

02:31:36.800 | It's all you gotta do.

02:31:38.320 | You gotta survive and you gotta score.

02:31:40.160 | - What's your memories of that, of those three weeks?

02:31:44.400 | What's like, what stands out to you?

02:31:46.800 | It seems like,

02:31:48.680 | 'cause that's the place where you found the silver medal.

02:31:51.140 | - Yeah.

02:31:51.980 | Because it's the place most people don't want to be.

02:31:56.140 | Everybody's comfortable.

02:31:59.380 | I would rather find out who I am and what I'm made of

02:32:03.940 | and find those end points.

02:32:06.340 | And if I can't find them,

02:32:08.420 | then that means everybody else has given up before me.

02:32:11.740 | - Were there a few people that just kind of,

02:32:17.060 | you returned to battle over and over in those times

02:32:20.020 | and then it was just.

02:32:21.660 | - Yep.

02:32:22.500 | - No social media.

02:32:25.900 | - Nope.

02:32:26.720 | - None of that is just like two men.

02:32:28.460 | - You lock yourself in your room, you come back,

02:32:30.940 | you've thought about it

02:32:32.620 | and you come back with a game plan for that day

02:32:35.500 | against some players here or there.

02:32:37.620 | And I would develop a hit list.

02:32:40.860 | Like I would be like,

02:32:41.800 | oh, that motherfucker grabbed me at like 13

02:32:44.620 | and I watched him sit fucking four rounds

02:32:46.480 | and then come try to kick the shit out of me.

02:32:48.300 | I'm gonna fucking grab that guy early

02:32:49.580 | and I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.

02:32:51.660 | And you just develop that list.

02:32:53.260 | - There's probably some epic battles in that room, right?

02:32:55.620 | - Yeah.

02:32:56.460 | - What's it look like?

02:32:58.740 | Like how crowded is it?

02:33:00.100 | - Very.

02:33:01.140 | - And so you're just like.

02:33:02.700 | - Yeah, it's a sea of people.

02:33:04.100 | - Sea of people.

02:33:05.180 | And you're trying to, are you doing groundwork at all?

02:33:06.940 | Just throws.

02:33:07.780 | - Just throws.

02:33:08.700 | No transitions, no nothing.

02:33:10.060 | But if I get pissed off and like you keep dropping

02:33:12.220 | or like not letting me do what I want to do,

02:33:14.060 | I'll rip a choke right across your face.

02:33:16.060 | Just to let you know that like,

02:33:18.140 | again, if I wanted to.

02:33:18.980 | - You have a really nice style of just like

02:33:21.980 | respectfully bullying the shit out of people.

02:33:26.780 | - 'Cause some people call me a bully

02:33:28.260 | and I have to remind them that like

02:33:30.300 | a bully enjoys like beating up the weak.

02:33:34.660 | - Right.

02:33:35.500 | - I wanna beat the person that fights back.

02:33:38.060 | - Right, exactly.

02:33:38.900 | - It's not fun for me if you don't fight back.

02:33:40.980 | - Right.

02:33:41.820 | Some of the greatest people I've seen like do this,

02:33:44.620 | they basically, you have this in the Iowa wrestling rooms,

02:33:48.620 | they'll push each other into the wall.

02:33:49.940 | Like they get, there's like anger,

02:33:51.720 | but it's ultimately underneath it all,

02:33:53.580 | it's like a deep respect.

02:33:55.220 | - I was training with Colton Brown one time

02:33:57.420 | and I went to San Jose State

02:33:58.920 | 'cause I was in California for something.

02:34:01.460 | And he kept like, he kept circling to the edge.

02:34:04.580 | They had like a cupboard that had like,

02:34:06.580 | when you opened it, it had like all the tape

02:34:08.580 | and like medical supplies.

02:34:09.500 | I was like, we'll fucking put you right through that.

02:34:11.900 | And he kind of giggled.

02:34:13.660 | And then he went by that edge

02:34:14.580 | and I fucking ran him right through it.

02:34:15.820 | - Yeah, see, to me, that's an ultimate sign of respect

02:34:19.060 | that both you and Colton will remember well.

02:34:21.860 | - And we're still friends, we still talk.

02:34:23.340 | It's just, I told him I was gonna do it.

02:34:24.820 | He knew I meant it too.

02:34:26.460 | He did it anyways.

02:34:27.840 | That just tested me.

02:34:28.920 | - Yeah, listen, that's, and that same attitude was,

02:34:35.980 | that was in Japan just day after day, after day, after day.

02:34:39.660 | 14 rounds, that's rough.

02:34:42.140 | - And you didn't sit out rounds?

02:34:44.340 | - And I did it all with a broken hand.

02:34:46.240 | - How?

02:34:48.860 | How did you do it with a broken hand?

02:34:52.500 | - You show up every day.

02:34:53.780 | - You show up, okay.

02:34:54.940 | - I actually did. - Which one, left or right?

02:34:56.340 | - My right.

02:34:57.660 | - Okay, so that's okay.

02:34:58.620 | So you can then focus on gripping with your left.

02:35:01.580 | - It's always a way.

02:35:02.820 | - It's always a way.

02:35:04.100 | But that means you can't,

02:35:04.980 | I guess you don't have to grip with your right sometimes.

02:35:07.100 | - I would palm it with my thumb,

02:35:08.900 | just like hanging out like this, just like this.

02:35:11.540 | So you can do something.

02:35:12.740 | So you can do like a goshi, 'cause you have a,

02:35:15.040 | 'cause I--

02:35:16.940 | - What were your main throws?

02:35:17.820 | It was Seinagi.

02:35:19.100 | - Koshigeruma.

02:35:20.540 | - Okay.

02:35:21.380 | - Sumi, Uchimata.

02:35:23.020 | - Uchimata, but you have this big,

02:35:24.720 | like a goshi type of thing, like a--

02:35:28.460 | - Yeah, but not from like around the waist.

02:35:30.740 | It's from over the shoulder.

02:35:32.220 | - Over the shoulder.

02:35:33.060 | - And I can do it with just the one hand.

02:35:35.500 | - Oh, sorry, which one hand?

02:35:36.980 | - The right one.

02:35:38.180 | I don't need the sleeve hand.

02:35:39.740 | - You don't need the sleeve hand,

02:35:40.680 | but you couldn't do it with the broken hand.

02:35:42.860 | - I could, 'cause I can just put my hand in the gi

02:35:45.900 | so it can't come off.

02:35:47.160 | And then you just, 'cause what happened was

02:35:52.020 | three days before I was leaving for Japan,

02:35:54.100 | a guy, my hand was rested like this on a mat

02:35:57.140 | and the guy, boom, took my whole thumb off

02:35:59.820 | and tore all the tendons in the palm.

02:36:02.460 | So when I went to the doctor, he was like,

02:36:04.560 | "We have to put a cast on it."

02:36:06.620 | And I go, "I'm leaving in three days.

02:36:08.420 | You're not putting a cast on it."

02:36:10.260 | And I go, "This is what I want you to do."

02:36:11.900 | Just like this, I said,

02:36:12.820 | "I want you to build a cast that holds it,

02:36:16.300 | that Velcros around so that when I'm not training,

02:36:19.900 | I can wear it.

02:36:21.260 | But then when I'm training, I'll take it off

02:36:23.820 | and then I'll put the tape on it

02:36:25.220 | and then whatever happens, happens."

02:36:27.100 | - Whatever happens, happens.

02:36:31.420 | All right, so that's epic.

02:36:33.340 | And that led you to the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

02:36:37.300 | - Well, that led me to winning Pan Am gold

02:36:39.740 | when I got back from Japan

02:36:41.300 | and then almost getting my leg cut off in 2015.

02:36:44.360 | That was like, I don't know, maybe a month or two later.

02:36:49.420 | I was hospitalized for seven days.

02:36:51.700 | - The leg being cut off for what?

02:36:53.600 | - I had three different types of bacterial infections

02:36:56.160 | in my right leg.

02:36:57.340 | My whole leg swelled and it was in my blood,

02:37:01.740 | skin and in my bone, in my right leg.

02:37:08.980 | So I got stuck at MGH in a hospital for seven days

02:37:11.940 | until they figured out what the bacteria source was.

02:37:15.940 | - Where was the source of the infection?

02:37:17.780 | As in in the knee?

02:37:19.660 | - Yeah.

02:37:20.500 | - Okay, so obviously there's a danger of like,

02:37:23.420 | that's life threatening.

02:37:24.620 | - Yep, so when I went into the emergency room,

02:37:26.940 | when I got back from the Worlds,

02:37:28.700 | the lady was like, "Hey, you need to call,

02:37:30.900 | you're gonna call 'cause you may lose your leg tonight."

02:37:34.180 | And then they put me in the hospital.

02:37:36.020 | - What do you think in this whole time?

02:37:38.260 | Are you still thinking about Olympics?

02:37:40.460 | - They put me into the room,

02:37:42.020 | like four hours later, the doctor came in.

02:37:44.740 | I was at MGH in Boston.

02:37:49.460 | And he was like, "You have a serious infection in your leg."

02:37:53.100 | I go, he's like, "We have to keep you hospitalized

02:37:56.100 | until we can figure out what it is."

02:37:57.380 | And I was like, "Buddy, I have the Olympic games

02:38:00.420 | in less than a year."

02:38:01.380 | I go, "I don't give a fuck what it is."

02:38:03.620 | I go, "Just fucking take it out

02:38:05.700 | and let me get on with my day."

02:38:06.860 | And he goes, "We can't do that."

02:38:08.980 | Like, I don't understand.

02:38:10.620 | I go, "You told me it's infected,

02:38:12.300 | just cut away that part of the tissue,

02:38:14.620 | drain it, do whatever you gotta do,

02:38:16.060 | and then send me on my way."

02:38:17.380 | He's like, "It doesn't work like that."

02:38:18.980 | He said, "Until we figure out what it is,

02:38:20.700 | we can't figure out how to stop it from growing

02:38:22.900 | or how far it spread."

02:38:24.420 | So it took him seven days to figure out what it was.

02:38:27.700 | Then once they figured out what it was,

02:38:29.500 | I went in for surgery to remove it.

02:38:32.540 | Then I spent, I think it was eight weeks

02:38:35.620 | in in-home care with a PICC line.

02:38:38.460 | And then I came back from that,

02:38:41.580 | on the first week and a half of judo,

02:38:43.380 | I tore my SI joint trying to throw a guy.

02:38:46.860 | And then I came back from that about a month later,

02:38:49.940 | and then fifth at the Cono Cup.

02:38:52.460 | And then the games six months later.

02:38:54.300 | - How quickly do doctors understand

02:38:56.220 | who they're dealing with?

02:38:57.940 | Like, is that difficult for you to explain

02:38:59.940 | who Travis Stevens is when you go to visit a doctor?

02:39:02.780 | - I don't think they understand, you know,

02:39:07.140 | their role is to get me to do my job

02:39:10.620 | to the best of their ability as a doctor.

02:39:13.900 | Meaning it's gonna be less than what they want.

02:39:16.260 | And they struggle conceptually with like,

02:39:22.400 | but the textbook tells me this.

02:39:26.300 | And I go, "But I'm not a textbook."

02:39:28.420 | Right, like when you go to physical therapy,

02:39:30.460 | the first thing they do is they pull out that binder

02:39:32.620 | that says, "Day one, we do this exercise."

02:39:35.500 | I go, "But I have my own goals.

02:39:38.660 | "Your job is to help me meet my goal.

02:39:41.240 | "Let's work a plan to do that,

02:39:43.080 | "or I gotta go find somebody else."

02:39:45.300 | - Did the doctors in general,

02:39:47.140 | people outside of your close-knit group step up?

02:39:50.140 | - If they didn't, I found somebody else.

02:39:52.900 | And typically I could find a person

02:39:55.780 | who knew the right person.

02:39:58.420 | - I always wonder with people,

02:40:00.220 | 'cause I'm constantly surrounded by,

02:40:02.820 | one of the biggest problems in my life has been,

02:40:04.820 | there's a lot of people in my life who love me very much,

02:40:07.980 | but who want me to the equivalent of that situation.

02:40:11.280 | You know, definitely don't go to the Olympics.

02:40:14.580 | And definitely like,

02:40:16.100 | it seems like the world is full of people

02:40:18.080 | that want you to be average and happy.

02:40:21.340 | - Yes. - Which is great.

02:40:22.220 | Which is fine.

02:40:23.060 | I mean, perhaps that's the way it should be.

02:40:25.620 | Like, you know, my parents, people close to you,

02:40:27.360 | that's how love manifests itself often in people.

02:40:31.780 | But then like, I think the ultimate manifestation of love

02:40:35.220 | is understanding who this person is.

02:40:37.220 | Here's a madman who's driven towards a particular thing.

02:40:40.380 | And the best thing for you to do is not to say,

02:40:43.640 | like, rest, it's to say, work harder.

02:40:48.500 | Like, fuck your infection.

02:40:52.740 | You should be training.

02:40:54.060 | Have you ever met anybody as crazy as you

02:40:57.300 | that can help you?

02:40:58.460 | - Most of us who get to this point get there

02:41:02.080 | because we're all a little unstable.

02:41:05.360 | - Yeah.

02:41:06.200 | - Even my wife, Kalita, right?

02:41:07.440 | Like when she was getting ready for 2016,

02:41:11.020 | or when she was getting ready for 2020,

02:41:13.920 | 'cause she moved to Boston to be a coach,

02:41:16.960 | she had a neck problem, right?

02:41:21.960 | And at some point in time, it's like,

02:41:26.960 | what's really important, day-to-day life or judo?

02:41:31.860 | And believe it or not, the doctor in Canada was like,

02:41:35.800 | I am never under any circumstances

02:41:39.520 | doing an MRI of your neck again.

02:41:41.160 | That's what she told her.

02:41:44.120 | She goes, if you have me do an MRI,

02:41:46.160 | you're not doing judo again.

02:41:47.440 | So just know, if you hurt your neck and it requires an MRI,

02:41:51.200 | you're done with judo forever.

02:41:53.580 | - Yeah.

02:41:54.420 | - So decide if you wanna do judo or not.

02:41:56.360 | That was a conversation we actually had to have.

02:41:59.040 | - That's a cool thing for a doctor to say.

02:42:01.820 | I mean, it depends how bad ass they sound when they say it.

02:42:05.320 | So that's a tough conversation, judo one.

02:42:08.080 | What's this with your wife?

02:42:09.920 | What's that relationship like?

02:42:11.160 | So you're both a little crazy.

02:42:13.240 | - A little bit.

02:42:14.080 | - In a good sense, or from my perspective, in a good sense.

02:42:18.040 | - Yeah, it's just, we understand that when it,

02:42:22.560 | when you set a goal to do something,

02:42:26.200 | you're not signing on for the good.

02:42:28.160 | You're signing on for the bad.

02:42:31.440 | And I don't think a lot of people understand that.

02:42:34.160 | - That's like a Valentine's Day card from Travis Stevens.

02:42:37.200 | - You have to like accept everything negative

02:42:40.800 | that could possibly happen.

02:42:42.480 | And until you do, you're never gonna make it

02:42:44.560 | 'cause you'll always sell yourself short.

02:42:46.920 | You'll never go far enough.

02:42:48.280 | - And if you sign up for the whole thing,

02:42:50.760 | then the negative is just like, oh, great.

02:42:53.240 | - I expected that.

02:42:54.560 | - If you're experiencing the negative,

02:42:56.240 | they're also experiencing the negative.

02:42:58.200 | And if you overcome it, maybe they'll get knocked out.

02:43:01.000 | - Yep, maybe they won't deal with it.

02:43:02.760 | Maybe they won't train through it.

02:43:05.200 | Right, when I had my five herniated disc

02:43:06.960 | and I was in a neck brace,

02:43:07.960 | I was still in the gym at 7 a.m.

02:43:09.560 | Doing whatever it is I could do

02:43:12.320 | because my job is to be at the gym.

02:43:15.040 | - David Goggins, I don't know if you know the guy,

02:43:17.200 | he's gone, he's damaged lots of parts of his body like you,

02:43:21.640 | trying to achieve things.

02:43:23.160 | So, unlike you, his achievements are like,

02:43:28.080 | your achievements come with the medal.

02:43:29.880 | He's just running in the darkness

02:43:32.480 | in the middle of nowhere by himself.

02:43:34.400 | It's like, I mean, it's the same probably as with you

02:43:36.960 | if you're able to be introspective about it,

02:43:39.340 | is he's just battling his own inner demons

02:43:41.920 | and working through those

02:43:44.080 | and is breaking his body doing so.

02:43:47.680 | Are you cognizant of the trade-off of the fact

02:43:51.280 | that you're damaging your body

02:43:54.880 | to get to these levels of achievements,

02:43:57.880 | of this level of excellence, of this level of greatness?

02:44:00.760 | - I mean, I guess that depends

02:44:02.560 | on what you consider damage really

02:44:04.360 | 'cause I don't really see that I have damaged my body.

02:44:08.160 | If anything, I think I've strengthened it.

02:44:10.560 | My body can go through more than yours can.

02:44:12.680 | Whose is weaker?

02:44:13.720 | - Yeah.

02:44:14.560 | - Right, it's just like the Thai boxers, right?

02:44:20.000 | In order to strengthen their shins,

02:44:21.280 | they got to break it a few times.

02:44:22.720 | - Yeah.

02:44:23.560 | - It's just nature of the beast.

02:44:24.600 | - You just had to break a bunch of stuff

02:44:26.800 | to find where the weak points are

02:44:28.240 | and then made them stronger.

02:44:29.600 | - Yeah.

02:44:30.440 | - Or strengthen the areas around it to strengthen it

02:44:32.600 | by the sheer relation to it.

02:44:36.120 | - But the problem is like you may not be able to do judo

02:44:38.920 | like for until you're 70.

02:44:43.520 | - Why not?

02:44:45.700 | I may not be able to do judo to the level I used to.

02:44:48.000 | - Yeah. - Don't get me wrong,

02:44:49.020 | but I can still do judo.

02:44:50.400 | - You can still do judo.

02:44:51.240 | - And I think a lot of people struggle with,

02:44:53.980 | they wanna keep doing it like they used to be able to do it.

02:44:57.280 | I don't try to do judo like I used to,

02:44:59.000 | like you're seeing here.

02:45:00.480 | I'm not that guy anymore.

02:45:02.660 | I accept that.

02:45:03.680 | I don't even try to be that guy anymore.

02:45:05.720 | I'm a completely different player today

02:45:08.760 | than I am when I was winning Olympic medals.

02:45:11.340 | And so I guess when you're looking at like my journey

02:45:18.920 | and the trade-off is I never sacrificed anything.

02:45:22.900 | The people around me sacrificed for me.

02:45:26.560 | And I never had a downturn after the Olympics

02:45:30.880 | because I never identified as an Olympian.

02:45:33.420 | - You know, a lot of Olympians suffer from depression

02:45:38.280 | after World Cup and stuff. - Because they identify as it.

02:45:40.280 | Now they don't have who they are.

02:45:42.460 | - Where was your personal moment of greatness?

02:45:46.920 | Like, or do you not experience life that way?

02:45:49.760 | Where you were truly proud to be yourself?

02:45:52.120 | Like- - Every day I wake up.

02:45:53.680 | - You're, uh- - You wake up

02:45:56.680 | and you're not proud of who you are,

02:45:57.840 | then you've really got to seek out some like help.

02:46:01.440 | - So that's, first of all, okay, I'll do that

02:46:03.920 | because I definitely am not proud of who I am.

02:46:07.320 | I just wonder if you didn't identify with the Olympics,

02:46:11.200 | was there times maybe in the training room,

02:46:14.040 | maybe in Japan, like where you were,

02:46:17.080 | you just kind of felt like- - I get more of an emotional,

02:46:22.080 | I guess, trigger, right?

02:46:24.280 | Where like I feel proud of what I've done

02:46:27.480 | when I've set to a task and I've done it.

02:46:32.400 | - So almost any task.

02:46:35.120 | - And the more challenging the task, the more reward.

02:46:40.080 | You fought a lot of amazing battles in 2016 Olympics.

02:46:44.880 | So you got, you beat the, let's see,

02:46:48.000 | the world number four in the quarterfinals.

02:46:51.680 | It's like a replay, every single Olympics,

02:46:53.720 | all the people- - I got terrible draws.

02:46:56.800 | - It's insane. - Terrible draws.

02:46:58.280 | - And then you're facing,

02:46:59.360 | this is where I was like watching this,

02:47:00.640 | I'm like, yeah, he's screwed.

02:47:02.080 | You faced the world number one, the Georgian.

02:47:04.480 | - By the way, for people who don't know,

02:47:07.360 | he beat me five times to my beating him once.

02:47:11.640 | And the one time I beat him was in London.

02:47:13.920 | And all other times he beat me, he beat me by a pwn.

02:47:16.640 | And not by like a little throw,

02:47:19.800 | like he threw me on my head.

02:47:22.020 | At one point we were in Georgia,

02:47:25.460 | I'm fighting him in the final.

02:47:27.080 | I go to my teammate and I go, guess what?

02:47:29.280 | Make sure you watch this fight.

02:47:30.560 | Somebody's getting thrown free pwn.

02:47:32.360 | This match ain't, this ain't match going to distance.

02:47:34.760 | And about a minute in, I tried to take his head off

02:47:37.680 | with a big Koshi Guruma, which is like a head and arm.

02:47:40.540 | He caught me and then threw me on my head

02:47:42.920 | and ended the match.

02:47:44.080 | - So first of all, we're watching the video of you,

02:47:48.400 | again, standing next to the guy

02:47:50.600 | leading up to your semifinal match.

02:47:52.680 | So here, if you win this, you're guaranteed a medal.

02:47:56.600 | But the chances of you winning from my fan perspective,

02:47:59.440 | I was like, goddammit.

02:48:00.540 | - You and the rest of the world except for me.

02:48:03.680 | - Except for you.

02:48:04.520 | - What are you saying?

02:48:05.360 | You're talking to yourself here.

02:48:07.080 | What are you saying?

02:48:08.120 | - My name is Travis Stevens.

02:48:09.760 | I'm Olympic champion.

02:48:10.960 | I will not be denied.

02:48:12.240 | - The Georgia is probably like,

02:48:15.560 | what the hell is this guy saying?

02:48:17.800 | What is he talking to himself?

02:48:19.300 | So he was probably ultra confident.

02:48:22.380 | - Yeah, had to be.

02:48:24.400 | The difference is, is I understood

02:48:26.960 | the last five times he beat me,

02:48:29.240 | I was purposely trying to throw him, not beat him.

02:48:33.400 | I wanted to find out if I could.

02:48:35.080 | Turns out I can't.

02:48:36.900 | But I don't need to throw him to beat him.

02:48:40.680 | I need to know how to not lose.

02:48:42.520 | - But you were still going for stuff here.

02:48:47.880 | - But all of my attacks drag him to the ground.

02:48:51.320 | They're never standing on my feet,

02:48:53.080 | which is a distinction that we talked about

02:48:57.640 | at the very beginning, right?

02:48:59.040 | You have throws where you're standing

02:49:00.260 | and throws where you're dropping.

02:49:01.680 | Every time I try to throw him standing,

02:49:04.280 | he throws me free pony,

02:49:05.400 | picks me up and he throws me on my head, literally.

02:49:08.480 | So what I did is I just needed to get

02:49:10.320 | to that last one minute mark,

02:49:12.000 | which is what he does mentally in his own judo,

02:49:14.720 | where he changes into a panic

02:49:16.840 | and just tries to do things that are uncharacteristic.

02:49:20.540 | - So you knew he's gonna start panicking here

02:49:23.600 | as the match draws to a close

02:49:26.240 | and you both have a shido or penalty.

02:49:29.640 | - Did we pass the point where I went for broke

02:49:31.640 | and I broke my rule?

02:49:32.680 | - Which one?

02:49:34.920 | - I went for a crazy foot sweep,

02:49:38.400 | like Ippon switch thing.

02:49:42.480 | I can't even remember what it's called

02:49:43.800 | 'cause it's not used that often.

02:49:45.480 | And he actually landed on top of me

02:49:47.660 | and some people wanted it to be called Ippon,

02:49:50.480 | but he had actually let go of the gi

02:49:53.240 | and was looking for the mat.

02:49:54.400 | So he didn't have any control.

02:49:55.640 | So they didn't award him a point.

02:49:59.120 | - Yeah, and here we go.

02:49:59.960 | Now we're getting down into the,

02:50:00.960 | see, like he's getting frustrated.

02:50:02.440 | Great.

02:50:03.280 | I love it.

02:50:04.100 | Perfect.

02:50:06.100 | Second penalty, no big deal.

02:50:07.360 | We just got to get to the one minute mark.

02:50:09.440 | That's all we got to do.

02:50:10.640 | - So there's no panic here for you.

02:50:15.520 | - No, I'm right where I need to be and look at,

02:50:18.040 | now, if you go back into this match,

02:50:21.640 | I would love for somebody to go back

02:50:25.440 | and see how many times he did a drop,

02:50:27.720 | right Ippon Seinagi.

02:50:29.880 | Probably never.

02:50:32.320 | - Yeah.

02:50:33.160 | - So why is he doing it now?

02:50:34.320 | 'Cause he panics and he changes his judo

02:50:38.320 | at that one minute mark.

02:50:39.520 | Look how much I kept that grip.

02:50:43.200 | - Yeah, you have that grip this whole time.

02:50:46.760 | You have your left hand--

02:50:48.080 | - Walking him down.

02:50:49.000 | - Walking him down.

02:50:50.040 | You keep the grip as he's throwing.

02:50:56.240 | Were you thinking choke as he drops or no?

02:50:58.800 | It's just kind of natural instinct.

02:51:00.440 | - Yeah, 'cause we drilled it.

02:51:02.120 | I spent two years drilling this transition.

02:51:04.320 | - And then very, so for people that don't do judo,

02:51:07.360 | jiu-jitsu, it's like really nice.

02:51:10.120 | Everything is nicely controlled

02:51:12.560 | to where you're keeping that gi under his chin.

02:51:15.080 | Like it's really tight control.

02:51:16.640 | I guess it's drilling,

02:51:19.240 | but you're cognizant of the position

02:51:20.840 | of your wrist the whole time.

02:51:21.920 | - And you can tell based on just years of doing it,

02:51:25.760 | whether it's under or it's not.

02:51:27.880 | You can just feel the difference.

02:51:29.720 | - And it's probably, even if you wanted to stop that,

02:51:32.200 | it's very difficult 'cause your whole time, it's like--

02:51:34.800 | - Once it's under, it's almost impossible to stop.

02:51:37.300 | - For people who practice jiu-jitsu, don't practice judo,

02:51:41.200 | one of the very annoying things about judo

02:51:44.600 | is in order to do gi chokes,

02:51:47.440 | they have to be under the chin.

02:51:48.840 | - Yes.

02:51:50.220 | - Even though the kind of intense chokes you do

02:51:52.480 | work just fine over the chin.

02:51:54.360 | But--

02:51:55.860 | - And the kicker here and why we practice this choke

02:51:59.400 | was because when you go back

02:52:00.760 | and watch all of the other matches,

02:52:02.720 | he always does this tripod when I try to do arm locks,

02:52:06.220 | which is typically what I would do.

02:52:08.040 | And when I do that, he ends up sliding out

02:52:10.360 | and I end up falling off.

02:52:12.360 | - So you step up here with the choke.

02:52:14.840 | He does a tripod where he sticks his button to the air

02:52:18.160 | and you, dude, what's the name of this choke?

02:52:23.440 | - Bow and arrow.

02:52:24.800 | - No, but okay.

02:52:25.880 | But I mean, when you do from like from that position,

02:52:29.120 | is there a way this entry into the bow and arrow, I guess?

02:52:32.720 | 'Cause you're doing--

02:52:33.560 | - We refer to judo as a British triangle.

02:52:35.880 | - British triangle.

02:52:36.720 | - When they're in that turtle position

02:52:38.240 | and you do that rolling motion.

02:52:39.920 | - Cool.

02:52:41.480 | And here, when you go into that,

02:52:43.880 | you can fall off of him, like you said,

02:52:45.600 | if you're going for an arm bar.

02:52:47.240 | But here, literally,

02:52:49.120 | because you have it under the chin really well,

02:52:51.360 | there's just a nice control.

02:52:53.300 | And I've already planned on it being on his chin.

02:52:56.720 | That's why I've hooked the arm.

02:52:58.240 | - Yeah.

02:52:59.080 | - Right, it's already starting to go straight.

02:53:00.320 | - Probably this choke in the early stages,

02:53:03.620 | like a few frames before,

02:53:04.840 | feels like you're safe.

02:53:09.680 | It's fine.

02:53:11.400 | Like the head will slip out or something like that.

02:53:13.800 | - Yeah, and that's why my left knee is up by his shoulder

02:53:16.960 | to keep that pressure down so that he can't posture it up.

02:53:21.740 | - When did you know you have this?

02:53:25.960 | - Oh, it was right here.

02:53:27.160 | (laughing)

02:53:29.120 | I actually panicked right about here.

02:53:34.120 | - Was maybe his head could come out?

02:53:39.040 | - My hand, I tore the muscle in my palm

02:53:42.080 | because I was pulling so hard that I'm like,

02:53:44.520 | he may not tap.

02:53:47.360 | - Yeah.

02:53:48.420 | - Is my hand just going to give out beforehand?

02:53:52.180 | - And there he is.

02:53:53.020 | - And we're right on this edge, right?

02:53:54.820 | - Yeah.

02:53:55.660 | - So if we roll a little bit outside

02:53:57.060 | and I still don't have it, that ref could stop it.

02:53:59.740 | - Yeah.

02:54:00.580 | - And then I felt him tapping.

02:54:01.900 | - Oh, he's heartbroken.

02:54:08.140 | - I felt--

02:54:08.980 | - Surprised.

02:54:10.260 | There it is.

02:54:11.340 | The relief.

02:54:14.180 | - Olympic final.

02:54:17.360 | And he knew, he knew he lost an Olympic medal right there

02:54:22.040 | because he already knew that the Japanese guy

02:54:24.920 | was going to be his bronze, that he never beats.

02:54:27.740 | - See the, but also he probably in his head

02:54:34.640 | was confident that he would be in the final.

02:54:37.520 | - Correct.

02:54:38.600 | - And so like this, he almost is surprised.

02:54:41.760 | - Yeah.

02:54:42.880 | - It's not supposed to happen this way.

02:54:45.120 | - And it's the second time it's happened.

02:54:48.120 | (inhales deeply)

02:54:51.180 | - And that's how you became an Olympic medalist.

02:54:54.820 | Man, that must be a great feeling.

02:54:56.520 | That must be a great feeling right here.

02:54:59.460 | Just like all the years of injuries, all of it.

02:55:04.340 | As fans that watch this too, it's like,

02:55:10.620 | holy shit, he actually did it.

02:55:11.980 | - It's a packed stadium too.

02:55:13.980 | Not one empty seat.

02:55:16.660 | - Oh man.

02:55:18.100 | So, what were you thinking here?

02:55:21.420 | - I was--

02:55:23.620 | - You just focused on the next match?

02:55:24.440 | - Yeah.

02:55:25.620 | It took me maybe like a minute or so to like decompress

02:55:30.620 | and then like get back to like my normal state

02:55:35.960 | for the final.

02:55:36.800 | - So the final is against the Russian here.

02:55:45.500 | What can you say about your mindset?

02:55:47.340 | (laughs)

02:55:49.260 | You're saying the exact same thing.

02:55:50.420 | - Same thing.

02:55:51.740 | Travis Stevens, Olympic champion.

02:55:54.380 | I will not be denied.

02:55:55.620 | Because I had felt like in London and throughout the years,

02:55:59.420 | I felt like I kept getting robbed.

02:56:02.580 | So I made sure in my mantra to add that little bit

02:56:04.780 | at the end to reassure myself that like,

02:56:07.800 | they are not gonna control the outcome of today.

02:56:10.660 | I'm gonna control the outcome.

02:56:12.360 | - What did you know about the Russian?

02:56:14.280 | - Everything.

02:56:16.120 | And I honestly, I thought I had won the Olympics right now.

02:56:20.480 | And I still do think that today.

02:56:22.560 | Just like mentally when you think about it,

02:56:26.200 | that I've won like, yeah, he threw me.

02:56:31.200 | But it was like a one in a million chance

02:56:35.640 | that that worked for him.

02:56:37.640 | Like, come on.

02:56:38.600 | - So it's not like you feel lucky to be in the final.

02:56:42.480 | It's like--

02:56:44.760 | - Again, remember I'm anticipating the goal.

02:56:47.880 | Like I'm past that.

02:56:49.500 | - There's a confidence in the way you're moving

02:56:52.160 | and the way you're--

02:56:53.000 | - Yeah, like I have his sleeve.

02:56:54.460 | He's not breaking it.

02:56:55.440 | Like still walking him down, still going forward.

02:56:57.880 | Like I knew exactly how I was gonna beat him.

02:57:02.540 | And I developed a plan because when I was getting ready

02:57:06.500 | for Rio, we brought in a lot of the top Japanese players

02:57:10.920 | that weren't invited to the camp for the national team

02:57:13.960 | to Boston.

02:57:14.800 | So I had four people, three of them were on the national

02:57:17.040 | team, one of them had won the universities in Japan,

02:57:20.880 | all at 81 kilos.

02:57:22.180 | I only got thrown once during camp for a month.

02:57:25.520 | - Wow.

02:57:26.480 | - Like I was ready.

02:57:29.120 | I just, I fucking slipped.

02:57:33.920 | - Where does it happen?

02:57:36.720 | - Right when he threw me.

02:57:37.820 | So if you let this play out really quick,

02:57:39.820 | there's a point right here where I'm gonna come around

02:57:42.400 | his back and I'm kind of gonna just yoko suteme,

02:57:46.840 | which means like a lateral drop.

02:57:48.480 | And I'm just gonna bring him down to the floor,

02:57:50.400 | which isn't a throw right here.

02:57:52.400 | It's more of like a takedown, right?

02:57:54.520 | I'm trying to get him to the ground

02:57:55.880 | 'cause I wanna burn him.

02:57:57.180 | He doesn't do any waza.

02:57:58.960 | So I'm just gonna keep burning him.

02:58:00.240 | And you can see that like, I get really close here.

02:58:04.140 | He just went a little too far to his side

02:58:08.320 | during this exchange.

02:58:10.800 | And like, he's running.

02:58:12.400 | I'm like, ah.

02:58:13.240 | He's very wiry for an 81 kg player.

02:58:20.120 | Yeah, there's not much like muscle on him,

02:58:22.500 | but he uses his length and his leverage very well.

02:58:26.080 | And you can see like, I'm really burning the clock here.

02:58:28.160 | Like I'm owning these exchanges more than I'm owning

02:58:31.400 | the tachi waza ones, the ones in our feet.

02:58:33.600 | So you weren't trying to necessarily like submit him here

02:58:36.640 | or like really hard or like pin him.

02:58:40.840 | You were trying to break him a bit.

02:58:43.240 | I'm doing both.

02:58:44.880 | I'm being overly physical.

02:58:46.600 | And to a lot of the BJJ people who are watching this,

02:58:51.240 | like, they're like, oh, I would have done this.

02:58:54.120 | I would have done that.

02:58:55.020 | You've got to think like, if that referee

02:58:58.800 | who's reffing the judo side of it

02:59:00.200 | looks at it for a couple of seconds and is like,

02:59:02.600 | he's not really moving.

02:59:05.120 | They'll stop it.

02:59:06.220 | - Yeah.

02:59:07.060 | So you're like, you understand judo.

02:59:09.960 | - Yeah.

02:59:10.800 | - What's called nae waza groundwork.

02:59:12.040 | Like what you, 'cause you're really showing it to the ref.

02:59:14.920 | - Yes.

02:59:15.760 | You have to show movement and progression.

02:59:17.960 | I hurt the forehead.

02:59:20.600 | Like, see, I threw that hand in there kind of hard,

02:59:23.440 | ripping it across his face just because.

02:59:25.840 | - I gotta tell you, there's a calm, well, no,

02:59:32.440 | he does look a little broken,

02:59:35.120 | but the Russians have like this calmness

02:59:38.340 | they're pretty good at.

02:59:40.860 | - Well, don't forget, they've competed like this

02:59:42.940 | for a long time.

02:59:44.300 | Yeah, it's all he knows.

02:59:45.620 | And this is where I lose it.

02:59:48.700 | See how my knee hit the ground?

02:59:50.220 | - Yeah.

02:59:51.060 | - My knee wasn't supposed to touch the ground.

02:59:52.020 | - Yeah.

02:59:53.100 | - I was supposed to sit to my hip to bring him down.

02:59:55.860 | Something happened where my knee touched

02:59:58.140 | and it didn't happen in the first one.

03:00:00.420 | It just happened there.

03:00:01.580 | So like that, we never should have been

03:00:04.540 | in that predicament.

03:00:05.800 | - Yeah.

03:00:07.160 | - And that's one of the things where

03:00:10.060 | when you're looking at sports for anybody

03:00:13.520 | who's trying to improve,

03:00:15.500 | you have to, when you're trying to improve,

03:00:19.700 | you've really got to ignore the ends of the spectrums.

03:00:23.780 | Right?

03:00:24.620 | The oopsies and the they got lucky.

03:00:28.300 | And you only focus on the middle.

03:00:29.820 | Like the technique I was doing was perfectly sound.

03:00:34.140 | It just happened that the one oopsie happened

03:00:36.180 | on the stage it shouldn't have happened on.

03:00:38.340 | And there's no amount of drilling

03:00:43.260 | that will ever prevent that from happening.

03:00:47.900 | - And that's just the--

03:00:49.380 | - That's sports.

03:00:50.260 | - That's sports, especially the Olympics,

03:00:52.060 | especially Judo when it's like one--

03:00:54.060 | - You get one mistake.

03:00:54.900 | - Quote unquote oopsie can just be your--

03:00:56.860 | - That's it.

03:00:57.940 | - That's it.

03:00:58.780 | - You know, it really requires

03:01:00.220 | and you have to wrap your head around the idea of like,

03:01:02.760 | if you want the ability to beat these people

03:01:04.820 | and throw these people,

03:01:05.740 | like you got to be willing to get thrown yourself.

03:01:08.180 | - Yeah.

03:01:09.020 | - Like this isn't boxing.

03:01:11.660 | There's no like, I'm going to stand in a place

03:01:13.580 | where he can't hit me and I can hit him

03:01:16.180 | because we have the gi and because they can grab it,

03:01:18.860 | they have just as much ability to throw you as you them.

03:01:21.660 | - So how'd you feel here?

03:01:24.340 | How long was the duration of you feeling upset

03:01:26.620 | that you didn't get the gold versus--

03:01:28.260 | - Never felt it.

03:01:29.180 | - Never felt it.

03:01:30.020 | Just--

03:01:32.380 | - Because he didn't beat me.

03:01:34.120 | - Right.

03:01:34.960 | - Right, it's an important distinction

03:01:36.020 | because when I'm training and when I'm competing,

03:01:40.100 | like I understand that I take risk

03:01:43.660 | and I accept those consequences, that's why I take them.

03:01:46.660 | That's a consequence.

03:01:48.540 | That's not him being the better Judo player

03:01:51.100 | that dominated a match and I didn't have an answer

03:01:54.660 | and then he threw me.

03:01:56.140 | Then I would be a little upset.

03:01:58.280 | Like when you're tired and somebody's coming at you

03:02:00.420 | and like you can't do anything about it,

03:02:02.900 | that's a shitty feeling.

03:02:04.100 | - Yeah.

03:02:04.940 | - You know?

03:02:05.780 | - And that wasn't this.

03:02:06.620 | - And that wasn't this.

03:02:08.860 | Like I accept losing when it's my fault.

03:02:13.000 | - Well, that was a hell of a story, man.

03:02:16.100 | So from 2008, 2012, just the sheer number of injuries,

03:02:21.100 | the weight cuts, all of that, the wanting to quit,

03:02:27.300 | the doubts, I'm sure you did not get,

03:02:31.020 | like the fans probably started disappearing

03:02:33.540 | somewhere between the second and the third Olympics,

03:02:35.740 | like the support from--

03:02:37.900 | - It did.

03:02:38.740 | - Judo within the United States and just everybody, you know.

03:02:42.580 | - Just like USOC tried to cut all my funding in 2015

03:02:46.060 | and said, "No, you're too old."

03:02:48.640 | - Yeah.

03:02:49.700 | So through all of that to win the medal,

03:02:52.220 | I mean, that's what the Olympics is about.

03:02:55.140 | Is there some, like when you look back,

03:02:57.860 | does that seem like another person?

03:02:59.620 | Is this like another lifetime ago?

03:03:01.420 | Or like that's a hell of an accomplishment.

03:03:03.540 | How do you feel about the whole thing?

03:03:05.440 | - It's an interesting kind of predicament

03:03:11.260 | because there's like those cookie cutter answers

03:03:13.460 | about how proud you are and how grateful you are,

03:03:15.780 | but at the end of the day, it's not who you are.

03:03:20.260 | So that skill set and that mentality

03:03:23.660 | that it took to accomplish that, that's who you are.

03:03:28.660 | And so this was just a stepping stone in who I am.

03:03:34.220 | So it's in the past to me.

03:03:37.260 | Like there's no shrine in my house

03:03:39.600 | that has like an Olympic medal in it.

03:03:41.780 | I can't remember the last time I looked at it.

03:03:44.740 | - So you're saying like all the stories,

03:03:47.780 | the skills along the way,

03:03:49.740 | that's like you right now sitting here is the shrine.

03:03:53.100 | - Yeah, the who you become along the journey

03:03:56.340 | is really what the prize is, right?

03:03:59.380 | Like when you think about any of them,

03:04:02.900 | most of the people that go through that depression

03:04:06.740 | after the games, it's because that is their shrine.

03:04:10.940 | Like that is who they've identified as.

03:04:13.100 | That is who they've told the world,

03:04:15.540 | the community, their friends, their family.

03:04:18.180 | That's how they've identified.

03:04:20.580 | I've identified as a person who perseveres,

03:04:23.220 | overcomes and accepts challenges.

03:04:26.140 | So like all those things are just like,

03:04:31.260 | putting a suitcase off to the side

03:04:33.900 | and I'm onto the next great chapter thing

03:04:36.620 | that I'm trying to do.

03:04:37.720 | - And it's both sad and cool that very few people

03:04:43.740 | in the world get to experience what it's like to be you.

03:04:47.060 | I mean, this level of having gone through that.

03:04:50.420 | - Yeah. - Journey.

03:04:51.420 | - Everyone has the opportunity to.

03:04:54.260 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:04:58.700 | I mean, I've done a few difficult things in my life,

03:05:03.460 | but I gotta tell you, weight cuts and sauna.

03:05:06.140 | - And I would tell people right now who are listening,

03:05:09.900 | like don't go through that.

03:05:12.120 | And I think a lot of wrestlers,

03:05:13.740 | a lot of young judo players,

03:05:16.340 | a lot of long, young, like just combat sports people

03:05:19.600 | where weight classes are a thing.

03:05:22.180 | They almost take a sense of pride.

03:05:25.620 | Like when I hear them talking about like,

03:05:27.420 | oh, how much weight do you have to cut?

03:05:29.380 | If you have to cut a pound more,

03:05:30.660 | it's like you've accomplished more, like you're tougher.

03:05:33.060 | - Yeah. - Like you're not.

03:05:35.100 | Like there's no trophies for that.

03:05:37.460 | - You, whatever the reason, had a job to do

03:05:41.180 | and you got it done.

03:05:42.060 | And that is truly inspiring, no matter how hard.

03:05:46.340 | That there's a big, deep lesson to learn from that.

03:05:49.960 | Then you start getting to the specifics

03:05:51.600 | of whether you should weight cut or not.

03:05:53.320 | But if we don't, then most of the great things

03:05:56.720 | we have in this world, we wouldn't have.

03:05:58.820 | The reason we have many of the great things

03:06:00.680 | is because people did that weight cut.

03:06:02.920 | The equivalent of the weight cut

03:06:04.500 | for whatever the discipline, man.

03:06:06.500 | - There's a difference between having to do it

03:06:10.040 | because you have to and you get through it,

03:06:12.600 | then setting yourself up to do that

03:06:15.800 | because you think it's the cool thing

03:06:18.640 | or the thing you're supposed to be doing

03:06:20.240 | in order to be successful.

03:06:22.280 | There are plenty of like two-time Olympic medalist.

03:06:25.640 | I probably could have been a two-time Olympic medalist

03:06:28.280 | had I not cut that much weight.

03:06:30.520 | I probably would have multiple world medals

03:06:32.740 | had I not cut that much weight

03:06:33.960 | 'cause my body wouldn't have been that broken.

03:06:36.800 | There's always the other side of it.

03:06:38.120 | So just when you're looking at it,

03:06:40.320 | like I just hear it in like young kids,

03:06:43.720 | even some of my own,

03:06:44.720 | like when you hear them talk about like

03:06:46.360 | where their weight's at,

03:06:47.920 | they almost take a sense of pride

03:06:49.480 | on how much they have to lose

03:06:51.200 | because they hear stories like this.

03:06:53.560 | And it's like, that's not the takeaway.

03:06:56.000 | I did it because I had to.

03:06:59.040 | I was put in a situation where like,

03:07:01.580 | I may not have gone to this game

03:07:03.040 | had I moved up to 90 kilos

03:07:04.440 | 'cause I wouldn't have had time to grow into the division.

03:07:07.800 | - And then you get the job done.

03:07:09.080 | - And then you get the job done.

03:07:10.160 | - You're right.

03:07:11.000 | It's just a very important difference.

03:07:14.240 | And that's also with sleep.

03:07:16.840 | That's what people talk to me about.

03:07:18.560 | There should not be any glorification of not sleeping.

03:07:21.740 | There should not be a glorification of cutting weight.

03:07:24.840 | But if that's on the way to your,

03:07:28.800 | whatever is that fire inside you

03:07:31.560 | that you know needs to get done,

03:07:33.460 | like the job at hand,

03:07:35.160 | if you need to sacrifice in some of those ways,

03:07:37.960 | you get the job done.

03:07:39.560 | Yeah, and the weight cut is an interesting one

03:07:42.760 | because it's different.

03:07:43.800 | I mean, you could speak to this.

03:07:46.280 | There's different sports in which the weight

03:07:48.920 | is more important than others.

03:07:50.360 | And there's different levels to this game.

03:07:52.840 | I think at the level you operated in,

03:07:54.960 | that was probably essential.

03:07:57.160 | Like there's huge games change completely

03:07:59.560 | from 81 kg to 90 kg.

03:08:01.520 | - It's a huge weight jump.

03:08:02.840 | - First of all, it's weight,

03:08:04.680 | but then the strategy,

03:08:05.800 | it's like so much changes the height

03:08:07.600 | and all those kinds of things.

03:08:08.560 | - The physical, like people don't understand it,

03:08:11.060 | but the physical size of a 90 kg Judo player

03:08:14.040 | versus the physical size of an 81 kg Judo player,

03:08:17.320 | it's like putting a human in a human.

03:08:19.160 | Like there's enough space.

03:08:20.680 | It's not like, you could stand next to your friend

03:08:23.820 | who's 180 pounds and you could be 160

03:08:25.800 | and you guys could look identical.

03:08:27.920 | It is different when both the 90 kg, 100 kg and 81 kg

03:08:31.280 | both have 6% body fat and they're cutting into the class.

03:08:35.920 | - And it always feels like there's more variety at 90 kg

03:08:38.680 | 'cause some of them are lanky and tall.

03:08:40.400 | - Yeah, some are short and stocky.

03:08:42.040 | - Stocky, it's like 81 is more uniform,

03:08:44.640 | which I, but then the flip side of that is the,

03:08:48.040 | this is why I like in Jiu Jitsu, again,

03:08:50.040 | amateur competing against bigger guys.

03:08:53.320 | Like I love that more.

03:08:54.280 | I like cutting weight just so I'm slim.

03:08:56.720 | Like that's when I feel the best

03:08:57.760 | with the same thing that you mentioned.

03:08:59.480 | But like, I love going against 200, 220 that-

03:09:03.560 | - Because in Jiu Jitsu,

03:09:05.300 | the weight doesn't get amplified in the sport.

03:09:08.440 | Like the weight is just the weight, right?

03:09:10.840 | If you can leg press 220 and you can bench 220,

03:09:15.840 | then yeah, you can train with a guy who's 220.

03:09:19.720 | That's easy.

03:09:20.660 | They're not gonna hurt you.

03:09:22.040 | - And I mean, there is a truth that,

03:09:25.040 | lightweights and middleweights in Jiu Jitsu

03:09:27.520 | and the same is true for Judo.

03:09:29.580 | It's just like a lot more of them.

03:09:31.200 | That means if you wanna be,

03:09:32.800 | is you're just competing at a higher level.

03:09:37.240 | So like there's much more variety of games.

03:09:40.400 | The level is much higher.

03:09:41.680 | So you're taking on a bigger challenge,

03:09:43.860 | even if you're like have a weight advantage.

03:09:47.400 | So those are all decisions you have to kind of make.

03:09:49.820 | And certainly in Jiu Jitsu,

03:09:51.240 | people that are weight cutting are silly.

03:09:52.720 | I mean, that's the natural beginner thing to do

03:09:55.200 | is to feel the way the nervousness

03:09:58.840 | about competition expresses itself

03:10:01.120 | is through the desire to be as light as possible,

03:10:04.920 | which is the totally wrong desire to have.

03:10:07.840 | - Right, like when you look at me now,

03:10:11.600 | I'm probably like 230, right?

03:10:15.400 | But I probably have the strength of a 70 kilo Judo player.

03:10:20.780 | Right, the weight doesn't really do much.

03:10:24.420 | - I mean, you have the same thing with wrestling.

03:10:27.200 | The skinny guys, the skinny you

03:10:30.200 | that we're looking at there,

03:10:31.620 | just the amount of power in that person is fascinating.

03:10:34.900 | - It doesn't look like you have some muscle,

03:10:36.920 | but it doesn't look,

03:10:38.240 | but I've felt the power of some of those people.

03:10:40.480 | - Yeah.

03:10:41.500 | - It's scary.

03:10:42.340 | - Yeah.

03:10:43.160 | (laughing)

03:10:44.000 | It's different.

03:10:44.840 | - That's the best way I can describe it is like scary.

03:10:46.840 | It's like, oh shit.

03:10:47.840 | Again, it's the food chain.

03:10:49.640 | You're not at the top of the food chain.

03:10:51.240 | - Yeah.

03:10:52.080 | - Well, that's the natural feeling

03:10:54.040 | when you go with some Judo people.

03:10:56.480 | What's your sense about this recent Olympics?

03:10:58.900 | What stands out to you as,

03:11:02.000 | so like Teddy Renner,

03:11:03.460 | who was on a big run for a long time,

03:11:05.980 | many consider him to be one of the greatest Judo players

03:11:08.260 | of all time,

03:11:09.060 | two-time Olympic gold medalist,

03:11:12.900 | and two-time Olympic bronze medalist,

03:11:16.180 | so four Olympics.

03:11:17.020 | - Two closed, yeah.

03:11:18.300 | - Not counting like team stuff, just doing individual.

03:11:21.580 | And then like 10 time world champ.

03:11:24.620 | - Yeah, I'm not sure how they're gonna catalog

03:11:26.340 | that team event.

03:11:27.860 | Like, are they all technically Olympic champions

03:11:29.860 | or is France an Olympic champion?

03:11:32.040 | - No, they're all technically Olympic champions,

03:11:33.860 | but I'm gonna ignore that.

03:11:35.740 | - Is that how they're gonna classify it now?

03:11:37.500 | - According, oh, sorry.

03:11:38.980 | According to Wikipedia,

03:11:40.140 | like according to the internet.

03:11:41.940 | I don't know, according to IGF or whatever.

03:11:43.980 | - 'Cause you know, some of those players never,

03:11:46.260 | you know, won a match.

03:11:47.640 | They just filled a spot.

03:11:49.660 | - Oh, that's even a starker example.

03:11:52.140 | Oh, that's sad.

03:11:53.900 | - You know, they lost in the individual

03:11:55.620 | and then they also lost in the team.

03:11:57.900 | And so.

03:11:59.740 | - Well, it's interesting because in the case of Teddy,

03:12:03.320 | he was important to the win against Japan in this Olympic.

03:12:08.700 | So like in the team event.

03:12:11.220 | So like, I feel like you should put that in the equation

03:12:14.980 | and say who won gold, right?

03:12:16.860 | It does feel like he won gold in the team

03:12:20.300 | because he carried the team.

03:12:21.860 | - Well, you have like Nomura at 60 kilos from Japan,

03:12:25.480 | three time Olympic gold medalist, no team event.

03:12:29.140 | - Yeah.

03:12:29.980 | - Are you gonna weigh Teddy's team event?

03:12:33.780 | - No, no, we're not arguing this, of course not.

03:12:35.820 | - No, I'm just wondering how like the IJF,

03:12:37.940 | like when you look at a player's stat,

03:12:40.340 | is it gonna be like team gold medal for the Olympics

03:12:44.260 | versus like their own personal gold medal?

03:12:47.020 | - Yeah, I think in sports we have to be brutally honest.

03:12:51.580 | And I think, hopefully this doesn't piss off people.

03:12:55.420 | - I hope it does.

03:12:56.260 | - But judo is an individual sport.

03:12:59.140 | It's honestly just that one athlete,

03:13:01.600 | maybe the athlete and coach, right?

03:13:04.160 | If you look at the big, big picture,

03:13:06.100 | but there's no team in judo.

03:13:08.940 | That's the beauty of combat sports.

03:13:10.820 | That's the honesty of it.

03:13:12.580 | That's the brutality of losing to another human being

03:13:16.160 | in a combat sport.

03:13:17.420 | That's why it's so damn embarrassing when you get slammed

03:13:20.500 | is because it's like, there's no team

03:13:23.020 | to like carry some of that responsibility.

03:13:26.860 | It's all on you and you suck.

03:13:29.020 | That's what you lost.

03:13:30.280 | There's that weight.

03:13:31.420 | And that's why it's like magical.

03:13:32.980 | It's not like soccer.

03:13:34.820 | It's not like basketball.

03:13:37.500 | - Yeah, I couldn't play team sports

03:13:38.820 | 'cause if one of my teammates wasn't doing their job

03:13:42.020 | correctly, I would go play their position.

03:13:44.260 | Like I'm gonna do it better than you.

03:13:45.640 | - Yeah, but that, some of the greatest leaders of teams

03:13:48.440 | also do that.

03:13:49.280 | Michael Jordan is like that, right?

03:13:50.400 | I mean, it's like with your actions,

03:13:54.360 | you raise the level for everybody.

03:13:57.880 | Like excellence is expected

03:13:59.400 | and therefore everybody needs to step up.

03:14:01.000 | So some of the greatest, I would say team leaders

03:14:04.940 | are individualists at heart.

03:14:07.360 | But so, okay, so Teddy, I think 10 time world champion,

03:14:10.080 | non-team, regular.

03:14:12.440 | - It's a big number, but I think he has some like

03:14:15.320 | open weight categories in there.

03:14:16.640 | - Open weight, right, right.

03:14:17.800 | I mean, you can count those, right?

03:14:19.600 | I mean, that's interesting.

03:14:20.840 | - It's the same division twice.

03:14:22.920 | - It's the same division twice.

03:14:24.000 | - That's right.

03:14:24.840 | - One day after another.

03:14:25.660 | - Yeah, that's right.

03:14:26.500 | - I don't know if I wanna count that, yeah.

03:14:28.880 | - Well, I mean, that's one of the reasons

03:14:30.880 | people don't usually put heavyweights in judo

03:14:35.200 | as like the greatest of all time,

03:14:37.860 | because the level of competition is lower.

03:14:40.120 | - Yes.

03:14:40.960 | - But anyway, he did lose in this match

03:14:44.680 | to a young Russian, Tamerlan Barsheev.

03:14:51.360 | Match also not on the internet.

03:14:53.840 | Thank you, Olympics.

03:14:55.200 | I am definitely going to go on some rants on the internet.

03:14:58.200 | Because as a fan of Olympics,

03:15:01.480 | I feel like this definitely needs to change moving forward.

03:15:04.920 | The like every single major Olympic event,

03:15:07.440 | I'm also like, I also like random sports,

03:15:09.400 | like weightlifting,

03:15:10.240 | even though I don't do Olympic weightlifting.

03:15:11.800 | - It's fun just to watch.

03:15:12.840 | - Fun to watch such high level of excellence.

03:15:16.840 | And the fact that we can't just fricking watch the full,

03:15:20.620 | like each nicely categorized event is really heartbreaking

03:15:23.920 | in judo, in Olympic weightlifting,

03:15:26.280 | in track and gymnastics, all of that.

03:15:28.640 | Anyway, so Teddy lost.

03:15:32.360 | I mean, does that stand out to you?

03:15:34.000 | If you were to like recap the things

03:15:35.840 | that you remember from this Olympics.

03:15:37.560 | - I picked him losing already, like in my predictions.

03:15:41.240 | - Lose which where?

03:15:42.600 | That match or just in general somewhere?

03:15:44.780 | - In the final.

03:15:45.620 | - In the final, you thought?

03:15:46.640 | - Yeah, final or was it semi?

03:15:48.480 | When I looked at his draw because he decided

03:15:50.740 | not to compete throughout the quad

03:15:52.820 | and do like the bare minimum to go,

03:15:54.820 | because of his age,

03:15:57.600 | I didn't think he would have enough energy

03:16:01.400 | to battle his way through the draw that he had.

03:16:04.860 | And sure enough, he didn't.

03:16:06.420 | He fell earlier than I thought,

03:16:07.860 | but he's not the young athletic person he used to be.

03:16:12.860 | And when they changed the rules to judo,

03:16:16.460 | they allowed people to take people into really,

03:16:19.200 | really deep waters, which you saw at this Olympics,

03:16:22.820 | which, you know, did it ruin the sport or did it not?

03:16:27.820 | Like, I'm not sure,

03:16:30.220 | but it was definitely difficult to watch.

03:16:32.300 | - Would you put him at the greatest of all time

03:16:35.500 | or ask another way,

03:16:36.740 | like who do you think is the greatest judo player

03:16:38.500 | of all time?

03:16:39.860 | - He's definitely not the greatest judo player,

03:16:42.900 | but he's definitely the best competitor.

03:16:45.620 | - What's the difference in judo player and competitor?

03:16:48.180 | - There's an ability to like,

03:16:49.680 | do the act of judo of like throwing, pinning, arm locking

03:16:56.020 | versus can you win a judo match?

03:16:58.760 | Right, like when you look at somebody like Nomura,

03:17:02.660 | who like through everyone he fought,

03:17:05.500 | through three Olympics, multiple world championships,

03:17:09.060 | multiple things, like that's a pure judo player.

03:17:12.980 | In the essence of judo, he can throw, pin or arm lock

03:17:16.540 | just about anybody he steps on the mat with during his time.

03:17:19.540 | Teddy tended to, when you look at his judo,

03:17:25.460 | because of his size,

03:17:27.380 | again, it's just because he's in the heavyweight category,

03:17:30.300 | he was so much bigger, so much stronger,

03:17:33.320 | people just couldn't handle it.

03:17:35.960 | And you would see really good judo players just break.

03:17:39.180 | - Yeah.

03:17:40.020 | - Like they could hang in there for a little bit,

03:17:41.980 | but eventually his size, like you can't control that weight.

03:17:45.180 | Weight moves weight.

03:17:46.140 | And when you have to use all your strength

03:17:48.060 | to keep him upright and off of you,

03:17:51.620 | your muscles just give out

03:17:52.780 | 'cause you don't have somebody of that stature

03:17:55.820 | and that skill like to train with, to train those muscles.

03:17:59.060 | - So what you're thinking more like those 73, 81, 90 kg people

03:18:04.060 | that just stand in the pocket and just give everything.

03:18:08.180 | - Like what comes to my mind is like a Koga.

03:18:11.140 | - Koga.

03:18:11.980 | - You know, a Nomura who's a 60 kilo guy,

03:18:14.220 | but again, like his dynamics

03:18:16.580 | and how long he was dominant for, like it just.

03:18:20.640 | - Do you put value to like epic throws,

03:18:24.860 | like singular moments of greatness?

03:18:28.060 | - If it's against a noteworthy player

03:18:31.780 | in a noteworthy position.

03:18:34.180 | There are a lot of highlights of people

03:18:36.900 | that are good judo players,

03:18:38.480 | but their highlights are of scrubs on the IJF circuit.

03:18:43.480 | It's like, great, the Japanese guy threw the guy

03:18:47.260 | from Senegal free poem.

03:18:51.740 | Great, we kind of expected that.

03:18:53.860 | You took the world number one

03:18:54.940 | against the 330th person in the world.

03:18:57.900 | What'd you think was gonna happen?

03:18:59.420 | Like when I see those highlights

03:19:01.020 | like thrown around like social media,

03:19:02.820 | I'm like, that's not a highlight.

03:19:05.840 | They might as well have just been at the dojo

03:19:07.780 | like practice and throws.

03:19:09.460 | - If you look at the like top 10 list for judo,

03:19:12.540 | Kano always comes up, you know, as.

03:19:15.600 | - But he's not somebody that I don't think

03:19:18.260 | his results are there,

03:19:19.880 | but you don't really know how he got there.

03:19:23.660 | So it's hard for me to like, I can't see his judo.

03:19:27.380 | So I'm not sure.

03:19:28.380 | - Kano, by the way, is the founder of judo

03:19:29.940 | for people who don't,

03:19:30.780 | or considered to be the founder of judo.

03:19:32.520 | - Yeah, the sport evolves.

03:19:35.140 | The players that are like,

03:19:36.260 | if you took champions from the past

03:19:37.980 | and you fought them against the players of today,

03:19:40.580 | they're, it's not happening.

03:19:43.020 | And that goes with anything, right?

03:19:44.900 | So every time you think of like,

03:19:46.240 | who's the best of all time,

03:19:48.060 | it's probably somebody within a generation or two of today.

03:19:52.060 | If I'm gonna pick my top three, let's say top three,

03:19:56.140 | and I would go generationally speaking,

03:19:59.580 | I would pick Ono for today,

03:20:02.800 | probably Iliad is for like my timeframe,

03:20:06.200 | like the, from a developmental standpoint,

03:20:09.840 | and then I'd probably go Koga.

03:20:11.760 | And then before Koga, I'd probably go Nomura.

03:20:14.400 | - Nomura.

03:20:15.240 | - As like the person of that generation that people like,

03:20:18.640 | as a whole in judo respected.

03:20:23.240 | - Yeah, well, in the case of,

03:20:25.200 | I wonder if people feared Koga.

03:20:27.360 | - Yeah.

03:20:28.320 | - Yeah, I hear that little guy's gonna get under you.

03:20:32.360 | - And you're gonna go for a ride.

03:20:33.800 | - You know, he was 78 kilos when he took second

03:20:36.360 | at the All Japan's, which is an open weight class.

03:20:39.000 | - Yeah.

03:20:39.880 | - You know, like he could throw down with anybody,

03:20:43.080 | any weight class and still win.

03:20:45.320 | - He was one of the early people that planted the seed

03:20:48.800 | of judo, love of judo in you.

03:20:50.480 | - Yeah, and when I looked at him,

03:20:52.800 | like that was how like I wanted my judo to be portrayed,

03:20:57.560 | that style.

03:20:59.000 | - Yeah.

03:21:00.040 | And then Ilias Iliadis, you just like,

03:21:02.400 | I mean, you have a similar attitude as him.

03:21:04.600 | So you just like the way he carries himself.

03:21:05.440 | - That's why we get along.

03:21:06.800 | - You guys hang out, I'd love to see that conversation.

03:21:12.200 | - I remember when we were talking about like his coaching,

03:21:15.200 | I was like, why didn't you take this team?

03:21:17.920 | Or like, why'd you pick this team?

03:21:19.320 | And he's like, I can't work with those people.

03:21:21.520 | Like those people are weak, they're children.

03:21:23.960 | Like they don't know how to train hard.

03:21:25.720 | - I love that guy.

03:21:27.720 | What about Ono?

03:21:28.560 | I think he was competing in this Olympics.

03:21:30.080 | He got gold in this Olympics, right?

03:21:32.000 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

03:21:34.400 | - He lost in the team tournament though.

03:21:36.080 | I think he just didn't care.

03:21:37.240 | - Yeah.

03:21:38.080 | - He just really wanted to throw that guy.

03:21:39.240 | - He like throws everybody.

03:21:41.000 | - Yeah.

03:21:41.840 | - So he represents the thing you're mentioning.

03:21:44.960 | I signed up to the judo fanatics, best of Ono.

03:21:49.200 | Is there something that stands out to you about him

03:21:51.480 | that's especially you find beautiful,

03:21:53.720 | like or powerful about his technique?

03:21:57.880 | - His adaptability to the situations

03:22:00.440 | and understanding of like what needs to happen

03:22:05.080 | in order to throw these people.

03:22:07.200 | I specifically watched a match with his

03:22:10.360 | and I was going to do a breakdown video on it

03:22:12.440 | because-

03:22:13.560 | - Is there a match, do you remember what it is?

03:22:15.160 | - It's him versus Garvey of Hungary.

03:22:20.160 | - Is he good at gripping?

03:22:21.880 | So we're watching the match against Hungary.

03:22:24.080 | So at the one minute,

03:22:26.400 | so right here coming up,

03:22:28.240 | I've heard he's freakishly strong.

03:22:29.960 | I've never had the ability to train with him.

03:22:32.640 | So I'm not-

03:22:33.800 | - Obviously he looks super skinny.

03:22:35.480 | - But when you see him without his gi jacket on,

03:22:39.040 | like he's a jack dude,

03:22:40.880 | which is uncharacteristic of a Japanese player

03:22:44.820 | from back in the day,

03:22:46.640 | in a way changed all that.

03:22:47.740 | He was like,

03:22:48.580 | we're going to get physical to compete with the Europeans.

03:22:50.600 | - That's another one of the greats, right?

03:22:52.080 | - Yeah.

03:22:52.920 | - He doesn't get mentioned enough.

03:22:54.560 | (silence)

03:22:56.720 | - And he's a righty here, yeah.

03:23:03.440 | Okay.

03:23:04.360 | - And this is where he started setting it up.

03:23:06.320 | It's like, you can see he was standing

03:23:07.800 | in like a left-handed stance and then he changes.

03:23:09.920 | (laughing)

03:23:11.920 | - So he grips almost like a double,

03:23:14.680 | double sleeve, not a double sleeve,

03:23:17.560 | but the tricep.

03:23:18.400 | - The tricep.

03:23:19.320 | - And the front sleeve standing like a lefty.

03:23:23.120 | - No body grip, just tricep and sleeve.

03:23:27.160 | And that was like the biggest whip

03:23:30.240 | and twist of a Nuchimada.

03:23:32.840 | - Yeah, he doesn't actually lift him off the floor.

03:23:35.480 | And if you look at it in like slow motion, almost,

03:23:39.500 | yeah, let's, yeah, there we go.

03:23:44.040 | The Hungarian player was like a hundred percent defense

03:23:48.980 | and he still did this.

03:23:51.360 | Right, so right here, like press pause.

03:23:55.040 | This is like an identifier if you're trying to like learn

03:24:00.040 | Judo and figure out how to set it up

03:24:02.360 | because knowing how to get to the point

03:24:05.080 | right before you pull the trigger

03:24:06.400 | is probably the most important.

03:24:08.600 | So when we watch this play out,

03:24:10.800 | what Ono's gonna do is he's gonna pivot off

03:24:12.960 | his right leg right here.

03:24:14.600 | He's gonna backstep with his left

03:24:16.280 | and it's gonna pull Ungarvy's front leg

03:24:19.120 | all the way forward into what we would call

03:24:20.840 | like a neutral square stance.

03:24:23.160 | So he plants hard and look at-

03:24:25.640 | - Oh, there's an interesting pull with the tri,

03:24:27.240 | oh no, it's not tricep.

03:24:28.320 | He almost like, it starts with the tricep

03:24:30.960 | and he like collects the gear or something like that.

03:24:32.680 | - But it's still above the elbow

03:24:34.160 | 'cause you can see the bend, right?

03:24:36.320 | And right here, see how he never put,

03:24:38.600 | back it up a little bit.

03:24:39.800 | This is kind of like one of those things,

03:24:43.760 | yeah, pause it right there.

03:24:45.440 | So when he puts his right foot down,

03:24:47.440 | he's pulling so hard with his back

03:24:50.600 | that when Ono goes to put his left foot down,

03:24:53.080 | it never touches the mat.

03:24:55.040 | But by putting his left foot back,

03:24:57.400 | it actually pulls Ungarvy's foot forward.

03:24:59.680 | And so he's able to speed up his throw

03:25:02.440 | by just continuing that motion back,

03:25:04.880 | which what was supposed to have been a step

03:25:07.920 | turned out to just, in the middle of the action,

03:25:11.800 | he makes a split second decision

03:25:13.440 | before putting the foot down to just continue

03:25:16.040 | 'cause he recognizes that feel in his hands.

03:25:18.240 | - Yeah, and so it's like, it never, it's a swing.

03:25:20.960 | Like he never touches the ground with his left foot.

03:25:22.880 | - It never started as like a big swing to a back step.

03:25:26.080 | He changed his mind partway through.

03:25:28.080 | So right there, he wants to take a step.

03:25:30.680 | And then he goes, nope, he's bringing that foot forward.

03:25:32.760 | I'm just gonna go for it.

03:25:34.200 | - Wait, is he full?

03:25:36.280 | - Full air.

03:25:37.800 | - Look at that, boom, boom.

03:25:39.600 | - And look at, if you go a few more steps forward,

03:25:42.400 | right there, his hip is the same height

03:25:45.800 | as Ungarvy's shoulder.

03:25:47.000 | - Yeah, that's crazy.

03:25:48.240 | - Because he's leaning so far into the throw

03:25:51.280 | with his body weight.

03:25:53.040 | And he's allowing that tricep grip to rotate.

03:25:56.280 | That's gonna draw Ungarvy forward.

03:25:58.840 | And now when you pause it right here,

03:26:01.200 | you think about the sheer physics

03:26:03.480 | to like get your body into this position.

03:26:07.080 | Jimmy and I were so like,

03:26:09.200 | when we saw this for the first time,

03:26:10.840 | we tried to just stand like that and we couldn't do it.

03:26:13.680 | His left foot is pointing straight ahead.

03:26:17.200 | His chest is perpendicular to that foot

03:26:19.800 | or parallel with it, right?

03:26:21.360 | And his head is by his foot.

03:26:22.800 | - Yeah, is that only possible in the midst of a throw?

03:26:25.560 | Do you think he works on making like?

03:26:27.560 | - I think he's done this particular throw,

03:26:30.400 | not this style of it, but Uchimata so much

03:26:33.600 | that his body has adapted to be able to do this.

03:26:37.480 | So when people are trying to learn

03:26:38.960 | and like break down videos,

03:26:41.040 | they don't understand like the power he has

03:26:45.080 | and what we call end range motion.

03:26:47.860 | - So like, look at the full range of motion he takes, right?

03:26:52.400 | - Yeah.

03:26:53.240 | - That left foot swings all the way around

03:26:56.440 | and the torso starts like at three o'clock

03:27:00.120 | and it goes all the way around,

03:27:02.640 | like almost back to the three o'clock.

03:27:04.760 | - Yeah.

03:27:08.080 | - And he never lifts his leg above his hip.

03:27:10.240 | And the crazy part is he never fell over during any of it.

03:27:16.440 | - Yeah, look at that.

03:27:17.600 | - Stayed on his feet.

03:27:19.160 | - What's he doing?

03:27:20.080 | Is that a matter of pride or just?

03:27:24.520 | - I think that's just--

03:27:25.440 | - Habit?

03:27:26.560 | - The way the forces work, like he can just stay up.

03:27:29.820 | - That's one of the most beautiful throws I've ever seen.

03:27:35.720 | There's so much wrong with it, but it worked.

03:27:39.680 | - It worked.

03:27:40.520 | - Because when you think about,

03:27:41.340 | remember what we talked about at the very beginning,

03:27:42.680 | like he's got to get his center of gravity under his.

03:27:45.640 | Well, here's one of the top players in the world

03:27:47.240 | throwing another top player in the world

03:27:48.960 | with his hip at that guy's shoulder height

03:27:51.280 | and it's still working.

03:27:52.540 | It's--

03:27:54.520 | - Okay, so he, this generation, he could be the great.

03:27:58.480 | - Yeah.

03:27:59.320 | - And like he switched a lot of those details

03:28:02.480 | of the throw in the middle.

03:28:03.960 | - In the middle.

03:28:04.800 | - Yeah, that only is, that means he's probably what,

03:28:07.160 | like 100,000 times that throw has happened?

03:28:09.600 | - Yeah.

03:28:11.280 | - I saw you were into chess recently.

03:28:12.880 | So you're, like me, a bit of a beginner in chess.

03:28:16.640 | You're part of launching the website Effective Chess.

03:28:20.440 | So I got to ask, maybe it's a personal question,

03:28:23.000 | but do you have advice to yourself and to other beginners

03:28:26.400 | in exploring chess of how to one, have fun

03:28:29.600 | and two, to start getting good?

03:28:31.660 | It's nice to see like Olympic caliber athlete

03:28:35.360 | take on a difficult task with a beginner's mind.

03:28:40.360 | So like, what's that process like?

03:28:42.760 | - I'm a huge fan of just learning new things in general.

03:28:47.760 | Right, like when I left Judo, like I took a job as,

03:28:51.920 | you know, marketing for Fuji Sports

03:28:55.560 | and I was getting frustrated with designers.

03:28:58.280 | So I learned Photoshop.

03:29:00.760 | I also got angry with the photographers.

03:29:02.680 | So now I take all the photos too,

03:29:05.040 | just because I don't mind learning.

03:29:06.920 | You know, I've spent my entire Judo career learning

03:29:11.220 | all the time, like adding new techniques,

03:29:13.160 | finding new ways, practicing, developing.

03:29:16.600 | And so when it comes to chess,

03:29:18.600 | I treat it just like I do anything else.

03:29:20.880 | I just stick to one plan and I learn all the ins and outs

03:29:25.060 | of that one plan.

03:29:26.640 | And then I develop another plan, right?

03:29:29.540 | Like all my practice, like a London opening, for example,

03:29:33.260 | and just, I don't even care if I win or lose.

03:29:35.840 | I just wanna figure out how I'm gonna lose

03:29:39.000 | and then figure out how I'm gonna win.

03:29:40.560 | And once I know, that position is now done.

03:29:43.820 | Then I start with another position.

03:29:46.360 | And then once I figured out how I'm gonna lose

03:29:48.440 | and how I'm gonna win,

03:29:49.720 | the next thing I do is I don't go to a third.

03:29:52.100 | I figure out the bridge between the two.

03:29:54.340 | Like at what point during my openings

03:29:57.080 | can I transition back into this opening?

03:29:59.500 | - Right.

03:30:00.340 | So like you have like some basic openings

03:30:02.940 | and you wanna see how they go wrong, how they go right,

03:30:05.260 | all the different ways.

03:30:06.100 | And then that starts to solidify a higher level concept

03:30:09.420 | of that particular opening.

03:30:10.460 | And you start to stitch together the concepts.

03:30:12.300 | - The concepts together.

03:30:13.420 | 'Cause being able to go from one to another

03:30:15.560 | and then back and forth is part of the reasons

03:30:19.580 | why like I was successful at Judo

03:30:21.380 | is just because everything I do,

03:30:25.220 | at some point it touches that spider web

03:30:27.640 | of like being able to get from one area to another.

03:30:30.700 | We refer to it as like a toolbox, right?

03:30:32.460 | You need more tools in your toolbox.

03:30:34.580 | But if you're always grabbing the wrong tool

03:30:36.220 | for that job, then you're just not gonna have success.

03:30:39.460 | - I actually forgot to ask you,

03:30:41.380 | you mentioned a few greatest chess players of all time.

03:30:44.280 | And I noticed you didn't mention Vladimir Putin.

03:30:46.980 | I gotta ask you about his Judo.

03:30:50.800 | Do you by chance know much about his Judo?

03:30:53.800 | What do you think about a president of a major nation

03:30:58.340 | being a Judo black belt?

03:30:59.680 | And I think from what I've seen, pretty good at it.

03:31:03.080 | - I think it shows if he actually got it,

03:31:09.060 | like let's go with that premise of like he earned it.

03:31:12.040 | Right?

03:31:14.340 | That just shows like a level of like physical persistence

03:31:19.260 | and mental fortitude to be able to like

03:31:23.600 | take those beatings and just keep showing up

03:31:27.280 | until you've overcome and can now give those beatings.

03:31:31.280 | - As you know, in Japan and Russia,

03:31:32.740 | you get it by just like when you're young,

03:31:35.260 | it's easier to get a black belt when you're like

03:31:37.200 | just go through a bunch of beatings

03:31:39.520 | for like 10 years in your teenage years.

03:31:42.840 | But there's also from it springs like a camaraderie.

03:31:47.840 | There's a definitely a brotherhood

03:31:50.200 | and sisterhood in terms of Judo

03:31:53.180 | to where you're connected forever because of that.

03:31:57.540 | For many people, it's their childhood connection.

03:31:59.380 | You sort of leave Judo in your twenties and your thirties,

03:32:03.300 | but that's always there.

03:32:04.260 | And the same is true with wrestling.

03:32:05.480 | So it's interesting to see him pay respect to that,

03:32:10.480 | like by going with the Russian national Judo team.

03:32:15.700 | And I think he did, obviously,

03:32:17.180 | they have to get thrown, right?

03:32:18.940 | But just, you can tell,

03:32:20.780 | and you probably could tell even better,

03:32:22.300 | but you can tell when a person moves

03:32:24.500 | in a way where you're like, okay,

03:32:26.140 | you've had like 10 years of beatings and you can tell

03:32:30.780 | the way they pull, the way they move.

03:32:32.520 | But I also like in contrast to the US national team,

03:32:36.700 | or I don't even think there's a national team for US, right?

03:32:40.860 | It's the Patriot Judo Center, right?

03:32:42.660 | That there is some, it's really cool

03:32:47.540 | when there's a camaraderie like that

03:32:49.100 | amongst the highest level Olympic caliber athletes in Russia.

03:32:52.600 | I suppose Japan might have similar kind of thing.

03:32:54.820 | And then you have,

03:32:56.580 | then you can have the system of people together

03:33:00.660 | and then you can have a strong coaching staff,

03:33:03.020 | not just like a coach, but a coaching staff.

03:33:05.180 | And then you can have the nation backing that staff.

03:33:07.180 | I mean, and then the result is like,

03:33:09.060 | you have some incredible level of Judo emerge.

03:33:12.220 | Is there something you could say,

03:33:15.380 | we didn't talk much about Jimmy.

03:33:17.540 | I mean, he was a critical part of your just,

03:33:20.480 | like of your perseverance through all the,

03:33:25.420 | all that you had to go through.

03:33:27.220 | What did you learn from Jimmy?

03:33:28.820 | What are some impacts that he had on your life,

03:33:32.660 | both on the mat and off the mat?

03:33:34.260 | - You know, if we had to like put it down

03:33:39.660 | to like a very simple thing, he taught me how to win.

03:33:44.900 | Right, it wasn't necessarily like

03:33:47.420 | the technical side of Judo.

03:33:49.380 | Like we went over gripping, we went over this,

03:33:51.820 | we adapted that.

03:33:53.700 | But the real strength to Jimmy was like,

03:33:56.420 | he knows how to win.

03:33:58.420 | And most people think,

03:34:00.700 | well, if I get really good at this technique,

03:34:03.060 | I'll be able to throw people with it and I'll win.

03:34:05.700 | That is not how the world of sports works, right?

03:34:09.500 | Like I remember in one of my YouTube videos,

03:34:13.300 | I was doing a breakdown of a match from the Cuba Grand Prix

03:34:17.540 | where I was fighting a Mongolian guy.

03:34:19.820 | He's kicking the shit out of me, not gonna lie.

03:34:22.220 | Four minutes in, like he just throwing me like left

03:34:26.900 | and right, he was so fast.

03:34:28.780 | I felt like I just couldn't get to him.

03:34:31.180 | In the last 30 seconds, he changed.

03:34:34.580 | He started protecting his lead

03:34:37.580 | instead of continuing the fight

03:34:38.980 | the way the entire match was going in his favor.

03:34:41.900 | He made a mental shift.

03:34:43.020 | And when he made that mental shift, I beat him.

03:34:45.460 | - Yeah.

03:34:46.300 | - 'Cause he didn't know how to win the fight.

03:34:49.280 | He can win exchanges, but he can't win the fight.

03:34:54.260 | So the last thing you wanna do is have to

03:34:56.660 | win every exchange in a match.

03:34:59.900 | You wanna know how to kick it into sixth gear.

03:35:03.900 | Like when to step off the gas,

03:35:06.140 | when to focus on gripping,

03:35:08.020 | when to attack, how often to attack,

03:35:10.500 | all those things like-

03:35:12.700 | - And you've had those conversations with Jimmy,

03:35:14.540 | like this is not like how to stop

03:35:16.460 | trying to win every exchange, that kind of thing.

03:35:18.460 | - Yeah.

03:35:19.300 | - And instead-

03:35:20.120 | - 'Cause I was a brawler before.

03:35:21.040 | I was like, if I threw you once, I'm throwing you again.

03:35:23.620 | - Yeah.

03:35:24.460 | - And sometimes you get caught.

03:35:25.280 | - Yeah.

03:35:26.120 | - Why would I do that?

03:35:27.120 | I'm already winning.

03:35:28.900 | - What about like the mental side of the game,

03:35:30.680 | the preparation, all those things?

03:35:32.860 | - One of the biggest things Jimmy brought to the forefront

03:35:35.900 | when it came to like the mental side

03:35:37.640 | was the visualization, right?

03:35:41.140 | And when I started visualizing myself winning,

03:35:44.380 | I started seeing more success.

03:35:46.700 | But once I started seeing more success

03:35:49.380 | with the visualization also came self-doubt.

03:35:52.780 | Because as I'm starting to picture myself like,

03:35:57.780 | I would picture myself before fighting Church's Villi,

03:36:02.220 | I'm gonna throw him with Koshi Guruma and I can see it.

03:36:05.260 | And if I stand in the chute for too long,

03:36:08.280 | you start to like, but what if he counters?

03:36:11.580 | Then you go, well, if he counters with this,

03:36:14.640 | I'm gonna counter with that.

03:36:15.760 | But you already let that doubt in.

03:36:18.040 | And then you start playing this like five-step scenario,

03:36:20.620 | but you still come out on top.

03:36:22.200 | But all that doubt has like seeped into your mind, right?

03:36:26.400 | And a lot of people don't understand that that's a bad thing.

03:36:31.400 | You're still winning in your mind,

03:36:33.720 | but you're also doubting yourself in your mind.

03:36:35.840 | - Yeah, once you let the, like that little slip in,

03:36:38.920 | it's destructive.

03:36:40.600 | - Yeah, and so I remember I was at the world championships.

03:36:44.680 | I can't remember what year it was, but I was ready.

03:36:47.500 | Like I was healthy, I was ready to go.

03:36:50.440 | And we all thought like,

03:36:52.380 | this is the year Travis wins the worlds.

03:36:55.360 | I go out there in the first round,

03:36:57.900 | I'm in the chute for like 45 minutes.

03:37:00.180 | Like the match went into golden score,

03:37:03.080 | then the next match went into golden score,

03:37:05.120 | and the fucking next match went into golden score.

03:37:07.440 | Then the referee came and told me,

03:37:09.040 | "You can't wear your gi."

03:37:10.620 | Then big Jim goes, "Why can't he wear his gi?"

03:37:12.800 | Any gi that has his name on it,

03:37:14.380 | we're not gonna let him wear.

03:37:15.520 | He has to wear a different gi.

03:37:17.280 | So then I go, "Fuck you, I'm leaving."

03:37:18.800 | And I walked out there and I fought.

03:37:20.520 | I lost in golden score 'cause I did a Kochi

03:37:22.480 | and they called it a false attack.

03:37:23.880 | And I went, "Great, I'm out of the fucking worlds."

03:37:27.360 | But when I was in the chute,

03:37:29.240 | I struggled because I started allowing the like,

03:37:33.200 | Hungarian guy that I was gonna face to do things to me

03:37:37.480 | that I would have to play defense to and then counter.

03:37:40.260 | It's like, great, but now I'm doubting my own ability.

03:37:44.360 | So I went to a sports psychologist

03:37:46.680 | and the big game changer for me was,

03:37:49.920 | I focused more on the emotional, physical response

03:37:54.320 | that happens in matches,

03:37:56.160 | rather than the actual quote unquote,

03:37:59.720 | like Instagram picture that would have happened.

03:38:02.920 | So when I was getting ready for 2016,

03:38:05.480 | you think about like,

03:38:08.360 | how do you feel like standing in the chute?

03:38:10.420 | Like, what does your body feel like?

03:38:11.520 | Is your heart racing?

03:38:12.560 | How's your breath?

03:38:13.400 | Is your mouth dry?

03:38:15.160 | And then you think about like,

03:38:16.280 | okay, the ref just started the match, what happens?

03:38:18.280 | Like, what's the atmosphere like?

03:38:20.240 | How do you emotionally respond to these things?

03:38:23.120 | More so than me trying to beat a specific judo player.

03:38:28.060 | Right, like, oh, the ref just gave you a penalty

03:38:30.500 | at a minute 30, like, how do you feel?

03:38:32.440 | And then you start thinking about the physical responses.

03:38:35.840 | And when you do that really well,

03:38:37.720 | you can actually get the pins and needles

03:38:39.560 | and your body will start to sweat

03:38:41.000 | and your heart will start to race as if you're in it.

03:38:44.720 | 'Cause it's not about the technique,

03:38:47.340 | it's more about the physical,

03:38:49.120 | like, what does it feel like

03:38:50.520 | to have your fingers ripped out of a gi

03:38:52.520 | in the first exchange?

03:38:54.200 | Now my hands can feel that.

03:38:56.240 | - That's fascinating.

03:38:57.080 | - And then on a cellular level,

03:38:59.240 | like I fought the Olympic game so many times

03:39:02.200 | to the point where like, it is no longer a goal,

03:39:05.160 | it's an anticipation.

03:39:06.640 | - Right, so down to the experience of the grip break,

03:39:09.600 | the just the sweat, the heart beating, the yeah.

03:39:13.560 | - What does it feel to have your head smashed into a mat

03:39:15.680 | and driven across the mat with a mat burn?

03:39:17.680 | - Yeah, and then getting back up.

03:39:19.640 | - And getting back up.

03:39:21.160 | - Yeah, like with a bit of a burn, all that kind of stuff,

03:39:24.000 | the actual sensations on the skin.

03:39:25.440 | - The actual sensation of what it takes

03:39:27.880 | to fight a judo match.

03:39:28.720 | - It's not a strategy, like,

03:39:30.200 | but the actual sensations, the experience,

03:39:32.480 | that's fascinating.

03:39:34.280 | - 'Cause then your body's gonna fight hundreds of matches

03:39:36.520 | without the physical damage.

03:39:38.520 | - And you could probably get really far with that

03:39:41.200 | and not also in just judo, but basically anything.

03:39:44.320 | You can simulate if you learn how to simulate well.

03:39:50.680 | - You've lived a very, a hell of a life.

03:39:55.680 | Is there advice you can give to young people?

03:39:58.840 | Sort of a high school, college,

03:40:01.540 | thinking about their career, thinking about life,

03:40:05.280 | how to live one they're proud of?

03:40:06.940 | - I think the number one thing I can tell people is,

03:40:15.760 | and how I've lived my life is,

03:40:18.560 | you've really gotta forget everybody in your life right now,

03:40:21.920 | your mother, your father, your grandparents,

03:40:24.040 | your girlfriend, your boyfriend, whoever it is,

03:40:26.520 | and really decide what is gonna make you happy.

03:40:30.800 | At some point in my career,

03:40:34.020 | the act of pushing my body to the limit

03:40:38.280 | made me happier than winning a Grand Slam medal.

03:40:42.180 | Pushing my body to the limit didn't make me happier

03:40:47.120 | than winning an Olympic medal.

03:40:48.720 | There's a balance there.

03:40:52.920 | And I think a lot of people struggle with living their life

03:40:56.400 | where they're happy and they make other people happy

03:41:00.480 | or take in their feelings into the considerations

03:41:04.680 | of what they need to do in their life.

03:41:06.560 | And I think if they can cut those strings sooner,

03:41:11.760 | it'll allow you to get over it quicker

03:41:13.880 | and get to a happier place sooner.

03:41:16.200 | And then as long as you're focusing

03:41:17.640 | on what's making you happy,

03:41:19.120 | the things you do that make you happy

03:41:22.120 | will attract other people who do those things

03:41:25.040 | that will in turn build stronger, better relationships.

03:41:29.400 | - And then you will also realize the best form of yourself

03:41:34.400 | and inspire many others.

03:41:35.960 | Like you've inspired me to, for whatever the hell I've done,

03:41:40.960 | at least to do a slightly better job

03:41:44.800 | than I otherwise would have by doing martial arts,

03:41:47.440 | by taking that journey.

03:41:49.280 | And I think becoming a better person because of it.

03:41:51.280 | So Travis, I have been,

03:41:53.640 | I continue to be one of your biggest fans.

03:41:56.880 | I love your whole career in the way you pursued happiness.

03:42:01.240 | I love what you and Jimmy have done.

03:42:03.120 | I love the sport of judo as represented by you.

03:42:06.240 | So I deeply appreciate what you've done, man.

03:42:08.920 | - Thank you.

03:42:09.760 | - And I'm honored that you would spend your time

03:42:11.200 | with me today.

03:42:12.040 | Thanks for talking, man.

03:42:13.040 | - Thank you.

03:42:14.880 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

03:42:17.000 | with Travis Stevens.

03:42:18.440 | To support this podcast,

03:42:19.760 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

03:42:22.400 | And now let me leave you with some words

03:42:24.800 | from Napoleon Bonaparte.

03:42:27.080 | Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

03:42:30.360 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

03:42:34.240 | (upbeat music)

03:42:36.840 | (upbeat music)

03:42:39.440 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness | Lex Fridman Podcast #223

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