How To Escape Mediocrity, Achieve Success & Get Ahead of 99% Of People

00:00:00.000 | We often talk about on our show this idea of the deep life

00:00:03.240 | where you intentionally craft an ideal image

00:00:06.200 | of what your life is like,

00:00:08.060 | what all the different attributes are,

00:00:09.760 | the values, your day-to-day experience,

00:00:11.600 | and then you work backwards to get there.

00:00:14.400 | For a lot of people, work is not at the center of that.

00:00:17.580 | So what they're looking for is work that they enjoy

00:00:21.000 | that also gives them financial flexibility,

00:00:23.960 | that gives them the autonomy to help fulfill

00:00:26.800 | maybe a more remarkable vision of their life.

00:00:29.880 | And so what we wanna learn from you today

00:00:31.880 | is we're gonna learn a lot about the reality,

00:00:33.840 | the myths and the reality of trying to create

00:00:36.640 | a flexible, autonomous business that really is successful

00:00:40.100 | but is not the all-consuming,

00:00:41.880 | we have huge venture capital investment

00:00:43.960 | and the lights are on all night.

00:00:45.240 | How do we find that sweet spot

00:00:47.480 | of entrepreneurship unlocking depth?

00:00:49.880 | So first of all, is my premise gonna match,

00:00:53.400 | am I correct in saying that my,

00:00:55.080 | the premise matches what I've read in your book?

00:00:57.040 | Are we gonna be on the same,

00:00:58.920 | we're on the same wavelength here?

00:01:01.060 | - Yeah, the only thing I would call out is

00:01:04.080 | you can build Facebook in a weekend.

00:01:05.920 | It was actually started in a weekend.

00:01:07.760 | And Airbnb, I think you mentioned that too,

00:01:09.800 | that also started in a weekend with just an email.

00:01:13.400 | And it doesn't take people that have PhDs to do that.

00:01:17.040 | There's also a lot of ordinary companies and businesses.

00:01:19.880 | And I think to your original premise,

00:01:21.620 | that's exactly right,

00:01:22.460 | where you can start something really quickly,

00:01:24.200 | which people find surprising and is a common myth you can't,

00:01:27.600 | and create these amazing dream lives.

00:01:30.160 | And really, through entrepreneurship, find out who you are.

00:01:34.080 | And that's been the biggest surprise

00:01:37.000 | and amazement for myself.

00:01:39.940 | - So what, before we get into what works,

00:01:42.400 | what is it that people, people like me get wrong,

00:01:44.840 | but like me, I mean, we're navel gazing,

00:01:48.640 | we over rationalize, we don't take action,

00:01:52.060 | we draw out like a 17 step plan,

00:01:54.240 | like I'm gonna figure out,

00:01:55.520 | when we think about using entrepreneurship

00:01:58.160 | to unlock more options in our life,

00:02:00.720 | what do people like me, what are the traps?

00:02:02.680 | What do we get, what have you seen we get wrong?

00:02:04.920 | - So the first trap is the certificate life.

00:02:09.220 | - I have a lot of those, Noah.

00:02:12.000 | (laughing)

00:02:14.320 | - I only have one.

00:02:15.240 | I'm like so ashamed to even talk to you.

00:02:16.760 | I only went to one college with, I did get two majors,

00:02:19.120 | but my brother's a doctor.

00:02:21.640 | - That's two more than Mark Zuckerberg though, right?

00:02:23.480 | He has no major, so it's all, let's be honest,

00:02:26.040 | it's all relative.

00:02:26.880 | - That's true, that's true.

00:02:28.520 | And I think certificate life, my brother's a doctor

00:02:31.120 | and he graduated and he's got hundreds of thousands of debt

00:02:34.360 | and he's like, damn it, you didn't have any debt

00:02:37.520 | and you like just started stuff and now you're rich

00:02:39.760 | and I'm having to stuck to this nine to five thing

00:02:42.400 | that I don't really care for all the time.

00:02:44.640 | And what's interesting about it

00:02:46.600 | is that you don't need a certificate

00:02:47.840 | to succeed in life anymore.

00:02:49.080 | I think if you wanna do certain things like be a doctor,

00:02:50.760 | probably need a certificate,

00:02:52.400 | but there's just such a cool life

00:02:54.600 | regardless if you follow that path or not.

00:02:56.800 | And I think that's just something

00:02:57.720 | that people think they need permission for

00:03:00.320 | or they need to get certified and you just don't,

00:03:02.300 | which is so amazing.

00:03:03.640 | - Just to jump in real quick,

00:03:06.880 | would you say certificate life also really biases you

00:03:09.840 | towards trading time for money, which can become a trap,

00:03:13.720 | especially for more remarkable things.

00:03:15.040 | So that's just the path there.

00:03:16.820 | I'm a doctor, I'm trading my time for money.

00:03:18.400 | I'm a lawyer, I'm trading my time for money,

00:03:21.360 | which can only get you so far

00:03:24.000 | because you have to up stress up income.

00:03:26.300 | - You can.

00:03:27.140 | I mean, I think that that's also another myth

00:03:28.600 | of trading time for money.

00:03:29.600 | You can trade your money for someone else's time though

00:03:32.120 | at some point.

00:03:33.160 | I think that people don't realize that like,

00:03:35.640 | all right, well, I'm getting paid $1,000 an hour.

00:03:38.140 | Why don't I pay someone 500 bucks an hour

00:03:40.700 | and I'll pay for their time to go do that work

00:03:42.320 | and make 500 bucks on it.

00:03:43.560 | That's entrepreneurship.

00:03:45.200 | And everyone out there, if you haven't hired an assistant,

00:03:48.600 | I recommend a site called hiremymom.com

00:03:51.660 | or if you hire like a house cleaner.

00:03:53.620 | Those are practices of how am I using money

00:03:55.600 | to have time to either make more of it

00:03:57.180 | or frankly just chill and spend time doing the things

00:03:59.840 | you really wanna enjoy.

00:04:00.940 | So a lot of times when you go to college

00:04:04.120 | and you're taught to stay in the lane,

00:04:05.780 | like I grew up in the middle-class lane

00:04:07.560 | and the middle-class lane loves health insurance.

00:04:10.680 | - They're very worried about health insurance.

00:04:13.560 | - Very worried about health insurance.

00:04:15.200 | My parents are terrified.

00:04:16.360 | Like when I was at Intel, I worked at a cubicle,

00:04:19.080 | just very standard, like most people,

00:04:20.720 | like I didn't know how people figured out their careers.

00:04:23.360 | And when I was leaving to go to this little company

00:04:25.300 | called Facebook, they're like,

00:04:26.720 | you're leaving health insurance?

00:04:27.960 | You are crazy, my friend.

00:04:29.120 | I was like, Facebook has health insurance, don't worry.

00:04:31.240 | So number one, I think that just the reality

00:04:32.880 | that you don't need permission to be successful

00:04:35.680 | in these areas, you can do it anywhere.

00:04:37.480 | Like there's no physical discrimination.

00:04:40.360 | Like you can be short and succeed in business.

00:04:42.120 | You could be looking any color, any gender and succeed.

00:04:45.760 | And I think that's really cool.

00:04:47.960 | That's amazing.

00:04:48.800 | Like what other things in this world

00:04:50.560 | can ordinary people succeed like that?

00:04:52.960 | Like you can't do it in no sports, excuse me.

00:04:55.680 | - Yeah, that's for sure, right?

00:04:56.880 | Yeah, you can't be a basketball player

00:04:58.540 | just because you want to.

00:04:59.800 | - But you can be an entrepreneurship if you want to.

00:05:03.200 | And the beauty is that you can start it today.

00:05:06.000 | And that's one of the things I tell people

00:05:06.960 | to do it right now, like today, don't worry how it works.

00:05:09.520 | And I think that sometimes people are too smart, right?

00:05:13.040 | And a lot of non-smart people have a lot of success as well

00:05:15.960 | just 'cause they get started.

00:05:17.400 | - Yeah.

00:05:19.840 | - And so they're realizing like, huh, what could I do today?

00:05:22.700 | Especially if maybe you're an educated,

00:05:24.400 | significantly educated person,

00:05:26.120 | maybe you're good at research.

00:05:27.680 | That's a cool business to do.

00:05:28.680 | Maybe you have expertise in certain areas.

00:05:30.760 | That's a cool business.

00:05:32.280 | And realizing you can actually get those things

00:05:34.360 | going a lot quicker than you realize

00:05:36.500 | and cheaper than you expect

00:05:38.280 | is kind of as an eye-opener for most people

00:05:40.480 | when they think it's supposed to be this hard,

00:05:42.140 | complicated, long process,

00:05:43.480 | similar to the education maybe they've had.

00:05:45.680 | - So if that's the first trap,

00:05:48.900 | that they just don't think it's possible,

00:05:51.300 | what's the, what happens for those,

00:05:53.040 | what goes wrong when someone says, you know what?

00:05:54.600 | I'm convinced and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna jump into it.

00:05:57.280 | And then it goes awry.

00:05:58.960 | So when you see the cases of like,

00:06:02.060 | okay, I'm quitting my job, let's rock and roll.

00:06:03.960 | My business is gonna kill it and it doesn't.

00:06:07.000 | What's tripping people up there as well

00:06:09.640 | for those who like the idea of making the move

00:06:13.100 | but maybe don't think it through

00:06:14.580 | or have the evidence, what goes wrong?

00:06:17.080 | - Well, I always thought risky was having a day job.

00:06:19.560 | And I never think that it has to be this big thing

00:06:22.600 | that you like quit your job and try this thing

00:06:24.060 | and it has to work.

00:06:24.900 | It's gonna take time and it doesn't work.

00:06:26.500 | Like I've tried 20 businesses

00:06:27.900 | to finally get to the one AppSumo over a decade

00:06:30.540 | that eventually worked but you gotta keep trying

00:06:32.220 | and trying and trying and starting.

00:06:34.060 | Like there's a story in college.

00:06:35.820 | I went to Cal and I had a history of economics class

00:06:40.160 | and I was like, you know, I'm smart.

00:06:42.320 | I didn't try very hard on this midterm.

00:06:44.520 | And I got a C plus, I've never got a C plus.

00:06:47.120 | I was like a 3.8 GPA, I was really proud of myself.

00:06:50.420 | And I go to the teacher and I was like,

00:06:51.440 | how did I get a C plus?

00:06:52.280 | She's like, well, you didn't try that hard.

00:06:54.680 | You didn't really put in the work.

00:06:56.720 | And I was like, you're right.

00:06:58.400 | Yeah, I tried to just get by doing minimal work

00:07:00.240 | for maximum return.

00:07:01.560 | That's how I got to Berkeley.

00:07:03.040 | And, but it was great and when you think about that story,

00:07:06.580 | it made me recognize, okay, well, yeah,

00:07:09.380 | I didn't put in the work and that's okay.

00:07:10.940 | Let me go put in the work and see what happens.

00:07:13.140 | And I ended up getting, I think a B plus in that class

00:07:15.220 | and it was just more of the valuable lesson.

00:07:17.300 | And that same thing applies in business.

00:07:18.540 | It's not gonna work right away.

00:07:20.500 | And all of these failures, you're a professor.

00:07:22.740 | You know, when you're doing professing

00:07:25.340 | or you're doing new ideas, you have hypothesis

00:07:28.300 | and then you test them.

00:07:29.580 | So think of yourself as an experimenter or a scientist

00:07:32.620 | and you experiment on these things.

00:07:33.720 | Like I wanted to try a business blogging today

00:07:35.920 | or I wanted to try this weekend doing a research business

00:07:39.160 | or this weekend I wanted to try a consulting business.

00:07:41.760 | Hmm, that's my hypothesis.

00:07:43.760 | It failed.

00:07:44.600 | Okay, what did I learn from that?

00:07:45.680 | And now I'm gonna use that

00:07:46.760 | in my next experiment next weekend.

00:07:49.000 | And all these failures are actually getting you closer

00:07:51.460 | to where you wanna be.

00:07:52.560 | So looking at them as more positives

00:07:54.980 | and what am I growing out of this experience

00:07:56.980 | versus I would say most people,

00:07:58.820 | like look at YouTube or podcasts as a great example,

00:08:00.900 | they do one show and they stop.

00:08:04.100 | And there's really no difference

00:08:05.540 | between the people who win and succeed

00:08:06.660 | except the winners really,

00:08:08.280 | besides finding something people want,

00:08:09.780 | they stick with it.

00:08:10.740 | - Yeah, see, I love this idea

00:08:14.800 | because I think people get this wrong.

00:08:16.340 | I've seen this even myself

00:08:18.380 | is when it comes to doing something

00:08:20.280 | that has an interesting or desirable reward

00:08:22.580 | like a business that takes off and is successful,

00:08:25.300 | they're hard to find.

00:08:26.500 | You have to explore the space of the adjacent possible,

00:08:29.560 | right, so new ideas that are possible

00:08:31.740 | that build on things that exist before,

00:08:34.260 | and it's hard to find what actually works,

00:08:37.720 | but too often, this is what I think about people I know

00:08:40.540 | who have failed at entrepreneurship,

00:08:42.420 | when they're looking at case studies,

00:08:43.880 | they don't realize that you're seeing a sampling

00:08:46.260 | of how many tries it took to succeed.

00:08:48.940 | So a lot of people,

00:08:49.980 | the average might be seven or eight businesses,

00:08:52.400 | but you're like, let's look at the tail.

00:08:54.180 | So like Mark Zuckerberg's first idea or second idea,

00:08:57.080 | that did really well.

00:08:58.900 | Steve Jobs' second idea,

00:09:00.460 | oh, so my first site, that's how it works.

00:09:02.580 | Hey there, I wanna take a quick moment

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00:09:10.520 | Without Burnout."

00:09:13.000 | If you like the type of things I talk about on this channel,

00:09:15.980 | you're really gonna like this book.

00:09:18.360 | It distills all of my ideas into a clear philosophy

00:09:22.260 | combined with step-by-step instructions

00:09:24.800 | for putting it into action.

00:09:27.220 | Now, if you pre-order this book before it comes out

00:09:29.820 | on March 5th,

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00:09:54.880 | check out calnewport.com/slow.

00:09:58.820 | Everything you need, you can find there.

00:10:01.040 | All right, thanks, let's get back to it.

00:10:02.800 | You come up with an idea, and if it's good enough,

00:10:05.320 | it's really successful.

00:10:06.640 | And if it's not, then you shouldn't be an entrepreneur,

00:10:09.280 | so you might as well go all in.

00:10:10.560 | Where you're saying,

00:10:11.400 | which is my experience from academia, by the way,

00:10:13.380 | researchers, you're always exploring this adjacent possibility.

00:10:16.560 | We publish a lot of papers,

00:10:18.280 | 'cause you're trying to seek

00:10:19.400 | what's really going to take off,

00:10:21.200 | what's really gonna change the field.

00:10:22.720 | If you knew it in advance,

00:10:23.540 | you would only need like three researchers.

00:10:25.220 | They could just write, here we go.

00:10:26.440 | This is like the paper we need this year.

00:10:28.660 | So I love this mindset.

00:10:29.620 | But then that means though, if exploration is key,

00:10:32.200 | you probably shouldn't be making the really grandiose,

00:10:35.820 | I'm just gonna quit everything.

00:10:37.360 | This first idea, our mortgage depends on,

00:10:39.880 | it's definitely gonna work tomorrow.

00:10:41.980 | You need to have more of an experimentalist mindset.

00:10:44.140 | That seems like a shift for a lot of people.

00:10:46.480 | - It is, and I've seen this in Million Dollar Weekend,

00:10:48.980 | where people realize it could be fun.

00:10:52.420 | And again, it doesn't have to be this big, scary monster,

00:10:55.440 | like, oh, I've got to make all this money.

00:10:57.500 | It's like, can you get one customer today?

00:11:00.360 | Really, just one, yeah.

00:11:01.560 | Or can you do one thing

00:11:02.820 | that you're maybe a little bit afraid of

00:11:04.100 | and realizing that the life you want to live and engineer

00:11:06.560 | is just on that a little bit

00:11:07.620 | of that other side of discomfort.

00:11:09.920 | And I'm seeing it,

00:11:10.880 | like there's a guy who read Million Dollar Weekend,

00:11:12.680 | and he emailed me and he's like,

00:11:14.260 | yeah, I read the book

00:11:15.600 | and I just went and did stand up this week.

00:11:18.120 | I was like, go you.

00:11:19.800 | And he's like, wow,

00:11:20.640 | I didn't realize there's so much more I can do.

00:11:21.940 | And I think that's been almost the interesting part

00:11:24.680 | of entrepreneurship about it being fun,

00:11:26.560 | but also finding out who you can really become

00:11:29.340 | and who you are

00:11:30.900 | and realizing it's actually accessible to everyone.

00:11:33.420 | I think there's this intimidation that,

00:11:35.700 | oh, I'm not a business person.

00:11:37.340 | I'm not that.

00:11:38.180 | It's like, great, embrace that.

00:11:39.620 | How do we take that?

00:11:40.780 | And what I think,

00:11:42.620 | especially if you're an academic or if you're at a day job,

00:11:45.660 | have you ever been fired, Cal?

00:11:47.940 | - I've never not been in academia.

00:11:49.840 | My entire adult life.

00:11:51.380 | Never not been in academia.

00:11:53.420 | - Out in the non-academic world, we get fired.

00:11:57.180 | I've been fired twice. - I don't know about this.

00:11:58.300 | My ivory tower doesn't have this word.

00:12:00.700 | We just have your tenure case was declined

00:12:03.640 | and then you very quietly leave academia

00:12:05.740 | and get a job in industry.

00:12:06.940 | That's as close as we get to firing people.

00:12:09.160 | - Yeah, when you've been fired,

00:12:11.360 | you kind of realize like,

00:12:12.200 | oh wow, this one person decided my livelihood.

00:12:15.980 | And I think entrepreneurship is a great way

00:12:17.820 | to explore creativity in a lot of different areas.

00:12:20.240 | And if someone ever is saying like,

00:12:22.780 | hey, you're losing your mortgage payments

00:12:24.740 | and your food and all these things,

00:12:26.120 | like you at least have a backup plan

00:12:27.500 | and you can have both.

00:12:28.400 | I think people are surprised.

00:12:29.240 | I'm like, yeah, you can have both.

00:12:30.820 | And it's such a fun outlet.

00:12:32.620 | Like there's a woman who had a day job at Warby Parker.

00:12:35.660 | You know that eyeglass company?

00:12:37.180 | - Sure.

00:12:38.020 | - Yeah, and she was just like, her name is Mary

00:12:39.920 | and she dreamed of having her own business.

00:12:41.980 | She's like, I don't want to wonder what if.

00:12:44.520 | And I will say, if you want to engineer a great life,

00:12:46.460 | be an entrepreneur.

00:12:47.940 | Like you can literally take off forever.

00:12:50.060 | It has you get it going at some point.

00:12:51.620 | You can literally just take off forever

00:12:52.680 | or you can live wherever you want.

00:12:54.460 | Like I spent half the year in Spain.

00:12:57.060 | And so this married woman wanted that life

00:12:59.920 | and it's accessible for her.

00:13:01.700 | And she just sent an email to friends and family.

00:13:05.020 | And I guess people want to make it complicated.

00:13:06.660 | And there is more in the book that I break down

00:13:08.420 | exactly how you can do it with scripts and all these things.

00:13:11.180 | But she sent an email to friends and family and said,

00:13:12.900 | hey, I've got this idea for greeting cards.

00:13:16.580 | Does anyone want greeting cards?

00:13:17.860 | Just hit reply.

00:13:19.220 | Yeah.

00:13:20.980 | Fast forward in 2023, she sold $50,000 of greeting cards.

00:13:24.780 | Wow.

00:13:26.980 | And it's not-- that was not just one rich uncle bought

00:13:29.620 | a lot of greeting cards or I spent $50,000.

00:13:31.880 | It's all-- and then you start realizing there's a process.

00:13:34.800 | Just like there is an academia, you can create--

00:13:36.580 | there is a million dollar weekend process

00:13:38.220 | you can do over and over.

00:13:39.340 | Then eventually you find something

00:13:40.060 | like that that does work.

00:13:41.300 | And now she has $50,000 and I would be surprised this year

00:13:43.540 | if it's not a six figure business.

00:13:45.380 | And now she's able-- she did actually quit her job

00:13:47.540 | and is now doing that full time.

00:13:49.880 | Yeah.

00:13:50.540 | Well, and I'm excited to get into this process.

00:13:52.700 | Let me ask you to confirm something

00:13:56.520 | you changed my mind about.

00:13:57.680 | And I want you to confirm if I got this right.

00:13:59.560 | Your book changed my mind about this.

00:14:01.180 | So something I've always noticed is

00:14:03.020 | that entrepreneurs seem to live cooler lives outside

00:14:06.400 | of their work too.

00:14:07.180 | They tend to have more interesting hobbies

00:14:09.820 | or interest or the travel habits.

00:14:12.580 | I always used to think that's just directly because they

00:14:15.540 | have flexibility and autonomy.

00:14:16.820 | Like, oh, it's just hey, if you have more flexibility

00:14:18.940 | and autonomy, you're your own boss,

00:14:20.700 | you can finally go explore other things.

00:14:23.460 | My new belief on this that I want to check with you,

00:14:25.700 | that's part of it.

00:14:27.100 | But it's also the entrepreneurial mindset

00:14:29.660 | is one that is open to, as you were just saying,

00:14:32.900 | why not try this?

00:14:34.060 | This could be really interesting.

00:14:35.620 | Why don't we take up this sport?

00:14:36.940 | I don't know.

00:14:37.260 | We live near the ocean.

00:14:38.060 | What's surfing like?

00:14:38.940 | It's actually the mindset itself opens you more to--

00:14:43.700 | there's a lot in life.

00:14:44.780 | What if?

00:14:45.340 | Let's try it.

00:14:47.500 | It's a more open mindset.

00:14:48.780 | So did I correctly have my mind changed by you on that one?

00:14:55.180 | Yes.

00:14:56.040 | Yes, professor.

00:14:57.060 | I would say so.

00:14:59.140 | I mean, I think what I've noticed about entrepreneurs

00:15:01.260 | is they're willing to fail and then get feedback.

00:15:04.380 | Just like when you do a paper, you submit a paper and research

00:15:07.140 | and then you get feedback and then you improve it.

00:15:09.180 | And they're more willing to do that.

00:15:11.420 | I'm more willing to do that because it's cool.

00:15:13.300 | I get it better.

00:15:14.020 | And you could do this in all aspects of your life.

00:15:15.460 | And especially in business, that's

00:15:16.700 | how you can keep making your business better

00:15:18.060 | and better and better.

00:15:18.980 | Hey, you didn't buy?

00:15:19.680 | How come?

00:15:20.180 | Hey, you did buy?

00:15:20.860 | How come?

00:15:21.360 | And then you make your product better and better and better.

00:15:24.020 | The other thing I've noticed about entrepreneurs

00:15:25.980 | and successful people I admire is they're very curious.

00:15:29.940 | And they're willing to be wrong with their curiosity, too.

00:15:32.820 | So one of my best friends, Tynan--

00:15:34.380 | I think you're familiar with tynan.com.

00:15:36.100 | He's here.

00:15:36.580 | He's upstairs actually playing pinball right now.

00:15:38.740 | [LAUGHS]

00:15:41.100 | And Tynan's just curious.

00:15:43.860 | He's curious about this.

00:15:45.300 | Yesterday, we were researching yachts

00:15:46.740 | that could cross the Atlantic.

00:15:48.580 | But you don't need staff on them.

00:15:50.020 | And they're solar paneled.

00:15:51.780 | And it was just a fun curiosity to think, what if?

00:15:54.940 | And then I think that's part of the entrepreneurship thing.

00:15:57.240 | You're curious about it.

00:15:58.280 | And then you're like, maybe that can be a reality.

00:16:00.760 | And then if you're wrong, you're OK with being wrong

00:16:03.060 | or change your mind.

00:16:03.660 | If you're right, you're like, wow, that's amazing.

00:16:05.380 | We could actually do that.

00:16:06.660 | And I think that's probably outside of the certificate life

00:16:09.300 | where you're going outside maybe some of the lines that

00:16:12.140 | are set for what other people think.

00:16:14.640 | Right.

00:16:15.140 | And you and I were talking about this offline.

00:16:17.220 | But there's a small group of us who

00:16:19.500 | are full-time just normal professors who also

00:16:22.380 | podcast for large audiences.

00:16:24.500 | And no one understands what we do.

00:16:27.660 | It's a constant-- the certificate world

00:16:29.460 | doesn't understand.

00:16:30.260 | So if you get--

00:16:31.220 | I was just talking to Adam Grant about this yesterday.

00:16:33.460 | He's in that club.

00:16:34.340 | Huberman's in that club.

00:16:35.780 | Our colleagues are like, what?

00:16:37.540 | What's-- is that-- can you publish this?

00:16:41.220 | How does this work?

00:16:42.580 | So you're right.

00:16:43.380 | I think you're absolutely right.

00:16:44.720 | The certificate life is not--

00:16:46.040 | it does close off possibilities instinctually.

00:16:51.100 | But OK, let's get into it now, though.

00:16:52.740 | So now my odds are like, great, I want to now experiment.

00:16:55.540 | And I understand that I don't have to quit my job tomorrow.

00:16:58.060 | Because if I do, I'll lose my health insurance.

00:16:59.760 | And Noah's mom's going to get really mad at me.

00:17:01.760 | And so no, I can have an experimentalist mindset to it.

00:17:07.260 | What I love about the book is it's nuts and bolts,

00:17:09.380 | which I like.

00:17:10.500 | And you build the conceit around roughly a weekend.

00:17:13.300 | So you're trying to make it clear, don't take too long.

00:17:17.380 | Let's go.

00:17:18.220 | Let's get after it.

00:17:18.980 | And you can right away experiment with an idea.

00:17:21.780 | I like early on your idea of a freedom number

00:17:25.180 | as a source of courage or for inspiration.

00:17:27.700 | You want to unpack that a little bit?

00:17:30.020 | Yeah.

00:17:30.700 | Yeah, so the freedom number is the minimum number

00:17:33.140 | you need to actually do the things you want and live

00:17:35.300 | the life you want to live.

00:17:36.420 | And I have a best friend who works at Amazon.

00:17:39.580 | Makes half a million dollars a year.

00:17:41.740 | And it's very hard when you have a day job at that amount

00:17:45.240 | because he's got a wife.

00:17:46.240 | He's got a kid.

00:17:46.940 | He's got obligations.

00:17:47.700 | So that's why also in a weekend, because everyone's

00:17:49.420 | got at least an hour free in a weekend to change their life.

00:17:51.900 | Yeah.

00:17:52.940 | But the reality with the freedom number for him

00:17:54.780 | and for so many people why it's empowering is realizing,

00:17:57.280 | all right, well, how much do I actually

00:17:58.820 | need to make if I start my own business

00:18:01.180 | to be able to go and work on the thing I like?

00:18:03.480 | Which turns out that actually is how you can make a lot of money.

00:18:06.260 | And when you calculate it-- and I generally

00:18:07.980 | think it breaks down to the three areas, which

00:18:09.600 | is your savings, your living, and then entertainment.

00:18:12.500 | And for me, when I was started, it was 3,000.

00:18:14.940 | Now for my best friend, because he's got a family kid,

00:18:17.100 | mortgage is about 10,000.

00:18:19.340 | And what's powerful and empowering about the freedom

00:18:21.900 | number is once you found yours-- and I encourage everyone

00:18:24.220 | to just write theirs down right now in their phone or on paper.

00:18:27.660 | One, it's actually more attainable than people realize.

00:18:30.180 | Like, huh, I only need--

00:18:31.700 | most people I've seen, depending on where

00:18:33.420 | they're at the stage of life, between 5,000.

00:18:36.140 | I'm like, that's actually more reasonable than I thought.

00:18:38.700 | And most people never become millionaires

00:18:40.660 | because they don't even make a dollar.

00:18:43.300 | And now the other part of this is now that you're like, wow,

00:18:46.180 | that's not that hard to actually get to a monthly number.

00:18:48.720 | The second thing is when you start businesses,

00:18:50.580 | it's not going to work right away.

00:18:52.220 | And when it does start, you make your first dollar or $100

00:18:54.780 | in a weekend, you're like, well, dude, I make $20,000 a month

00:18:58.420 | or $10,000 a month or $5,000 a month already in my day job.

00:19:01.020 | Like, this sucks.

00:19:02.660 | It's like, hold on.

00:19:04.700 | Like, this is the success part.

00:19:06.360 | Even if you get one customer, which

00:19:07.820 | everyone can get three customers--

00:19:09.360 | I would recommend three customers or 48 hours.

00:19:11.280 | And when you have this freedom number,

00:19:14.500 | again, you're just realizing, like, wow, OK, so I can get it.

00:19:17.500 | And maybe if I just stick with this for a little bit,

00:19:19.660 | maybe a year, two years, three years,

00:19:21.420 | you will get to that number, I promise you.

00:19:23.500 | And if you see it getting closer, yeah, that motivates.

00:19:26.740 | 100%.

00:19:27.620 | And for me, I am never this entrepreneur.

00:19:29.920 | I know people are like, jump off cliffs

00:19:31.500 | without a parachute, which seems silly.

00:19:33.100 | I don't know anyone who has ever done that.

00:19:37.060 | I think that's like a silly maxim.

00:19:39.020 | I think the reality for me is have your day job

00:19:41.020 | be your investor, create these side hustles,

00:19:43.020 | get to your freedom number, and then make the choice.

00:19:45.140 | I even had someone recently who messaged me and was like,

00:19:48.220 | I have a day job that I like, and I have a freedom number

00:19:50.400 | that I hit.

00:19:51.220 | What do you think I should do?

00:19:52.460 | I was like, keep both.

00:19:54.180 | You don't have to.

00:19:55.740 | You don't have to make it binary.

00:19:57.460 | Yeah.

00:19:58.100 | Well, two points on this.

00:20:01.180 | One is, I assume something people get wrong often

00:20:03.660 | with freedom numbers, 'cause I've seen this,

00:20:05.440 | is they use the wrong heuristic, which is,

00:20:07.560 | okay, what is my current salary?

00:20:09.720 | Right.

00:20:10.560 | And that's missing a lot of, it's missing a lot of options

00:20:14.540 | when you just think, okay, how do I replace

00:20:16.800 | my Amazon salary?

00:20:18.560 | That's the wrong way to do it, right?

00:20:20.020 | Because your freedom number is not just reflecting,

00:20:22.780 | I'm in my exact same circumstance.

00:20:25.000 | Your freedom number is also reflecting,

00:20:26.820 | you can really re-engineer a lot about your life,

00:20:29.040 | including how much your life actually cost.

00:20:32.260 | - And that, I think what's crazy,

00:20:35.040 | and let me just give my own example,

00:20:37.680 | is that my freedom number is $3,000.

00:20:39.240 | So I had a day job, started AppSumo,

00:20:41.800 | got obsessed with the problem, not necessarily the solution,

00:20:45.020 | which is I think most smart people get backwards.

00:20:48.360 | My freedom number is 3,000.

00:20:49.480 | After about, I think it was three months,

00:20:51.280 | I hit my freedom number, quit my job.

00:20:53.580 | So I'm making $3,000 a month,

00:20:54.800 | living my dream life already, which was amazing.

00:20:57.940 | Now here's where it's interesting, fast forward 14 years,

00:21:01.180 | I'm now, I don't know what this is monthly,

00:21:02.920 | but I made around $3 million last year.

00:21:05.620 | And that's not to brag, it's just to show you that,

00:21:07.940 | yeah, just because I got to my $3,000

00:21:09.900 | and I could do what I really wanted,

00:21:10.980 | and then there's ways, like how do I not quit?

00:21:13.700 | How do I stick with things?

00:21:15.020 | 14 years later, it's now, I don't know,

00:21:17.020 | 100, $200,000 a month number.

00:21:19.680 | And doing the thing you want, one,

00:21:21.380 | even if you're not making crazy amounts of money,

00:21:23.180 | at least you're making as much as you need,

00:21:24.940 | and you're living the life you wanna live.

00:21:28.040 | - Yeah, well, and once you're able to go full-time

00:21:31.660 | to what you're doing, now you're amplifying.

00:21:33.340 | You're accelerating, right?

00:21:34.260 | So it's not surprising if you got to the $3,000

00:21:37.720 | while working at Intel,

00:21:39.020 | or whatever the day job was at the time,

00:21:41.800 | what happens when you now get to give

00:21:43.180 | all of your energy to it?

00:21:44.180 | Like, well, obviously it's gonna grow faster.

00:21:46.940 | So you have some sort of acceleration,

00:21:49.020 | which I love about it.

00:21:51.260 | I also just wanna put a pin in something

00:21:52.900 | you just said there as well, problem not solution.

00:21:55.560 | I mean, assuming what you're getting out there

00:21:57.360 | is, again, the experimentalist mindset.

00:21:59.340 | The good problem is great,

00:22:00.500 | because you know if you solve it,

00:22:01.660 | you're gonna have an audience.

00:22:02.920 | Finding solutions is hard.

00:22:04.460 | So if you just fix on a solution,

00:22:06.420 | maybe that's a good solution.

00:22:08.020 | Like, you don't know.

00:22:08.860 | Like, you have to put it on the market and see,

00:22:10.460 | and you don't wanna just be chasing a terrible idea.

00:22:13.920 | I mean, if your original solution for AppSumo was,

00:22:17.240 | for the problem was,

00:22:18.080 | yeah, we're gonna fax people these recommendations.

00:22:21.300 | And if you really stuck to that,

00:22:23.420 | like, well, we gotta make the faxing work.

00:22:25.340 | We just need better advertising.

00:22:26.660 | Like, you know, you're gonna be in trouble.

00:22:28.180 | But if you have the,

00:22:29.020 | no, we're trying to solve this problem.

00:22:30.180 | The technology might change.

00:22:32.060 | - Yeah.

00:22:32.900 | - That wasn't a side,

00:22:33.720 | but I think that's a really smart aside.

00:22:34.860 | A great problem is easier to find than the correct solution.

00:22:37.620 | - Oh, yeah.

00:22:39.080 | So at AppSumo, I was obsessed with the problem

00:22:41.720 | of how do I get software creators, customers?

00:22:44.400 | That's what I just wanted to solve.

00:22:46.340 | And my first two experiments did not work.

00:22:48.960 | One of them was called Software Taco,

00:22:51.300 | which was software reviews.

00:22:52.540 | No one came.

00:22:53.540 | - Yep.

00:22:54.380 | - And then I built another thing called Reward Level,

00:22:56.060 | which I can't even explain what we did.

00:22:58.940 | And then I did AppSumo where I was like,

00:23:00.720 | all right, it's like a group on for software.

00:23:02.400 | And I launched it in a weekend on Reddit

00:23:03.940 | and instantly people bought this deal.

00:23:05.980 | I was like, oh, well, that's cool.

00:23:07.500 | - Yeah.

00:23:08.340 | - The other parts I got a comment on problem versus solution

00:23:11.180 | is that a lot of smart people are solution oriented,

00:23:12.900 | which is great,

00:23:14.200 | but your customers don't care about your solutions.

00:23:16.580 | They care about their problems.

00:23:17.680 | And so the most obvious example

00:23:19.980 | that most people are getting backwards today is AI.

00:23:22.880 | Everyone's like, AI,

00:23:24.220 | it's gonna replace Cal Newport.

00:23:25.560 | Noah Kagan's gone.

00:23:26.660 | All of us are gone.

00:23:28.500 | But people still wake up.

00:23:29.740 | You woke up today, Cal, and you have your family.

00:23:32.020 | You have the show.

00:23:33.180 | You have your book.

00:23:34.220 | Those are problems that are going on in your life.

00:23:35.980 | And everything that's inconveniencing you,

00:23:38.120 | everything that takes your time,

00:23:39.060 | everything that annoys you

00:23:39.900 | are all actually business opportunities

00:23:41.860 | that you can actually create businesses around.

00:23:44.340 | And one of the ways I know your audience

00:23:46.620 | and what you focus on is how do you engineer great lives?

00:23:49.580 | How do you work backwards from this?

00:23:50.700 | And one of the easiest ways is think about your problems

00:23:52.900 | and experiment around it.

00:23:55.380 | When I was experimenting on how to create my dream life,

00:23:59.100 | I don't know, everyone,

00:23:59.940 | I guess when you get rich, they buy Ferraris.

00:24:02.420 | And so I like rented one on Turo and it sucked.

00:24:06.900 | I was like, I'm so stressed out.

00:24:08.900 | So I was like, I'm pretty good with my Tesla and Miata.

00:24:11.540 | And so, and again, just the same thing.

00:24:14.740 | You think about the problem you have,

00:24:15.820 | like, hey, I wanna figure out where I wanna live.

00:24:17.500 | All right, go experiment living different places

00:24:20.840 | and see if there's places that actually solve

00:24:23.080 | that problem for you.

00:24:23.920 | And with AI, coming back to that example,

00:24:26.100 | people are like, how do I fit AI into different stuff?

00:24:29.120 | It's like, no one cares about it,

00:24:31.020 | but they do care about how do you help them

00:24:33.000 | do their travel plans?

00:24:34.680 | Then maybe AI can support it.

00:24:36.280 | And I just, especially with AppSumo,

00:24:37.740 | I'm seeing literally hundreds of thousands of people

00:24:40.160 | build things and then try to go find people

00:24:42.160 | to convince to use it versus the other way around,

00:24:43.880 | which is who else has problems?

00:24:45.600 | What's your problem?

00:24:46.440 | Let me try to solve it and then see if this AI

00:24:47.640 | or technology can then support it.

00:24:50.180 | Yep, yeah, you get the feedback.

00:24:51.800 | Okay, well, let me try this.

00:24:52.820 | Well, let me try this.

00:24:53.920 | I mean, when it comes to courage,

00:24:55.960 | sticking with this a little bit too,

00:24:58.280 | what I've seen with courage is people get,

00:25:03.040 | not addicted to, but what they're really seeking

00:25:05.800 | is the drug hit of the immediate aftermath

00:25:09.080 | of doing something big.

00:25:11.300 | And that becomes a substitute

00:25:12.800 | for actually executing successfully something big.

00:25:16.440 | What they get excited about is not this new life

00:25:19.400 | I could probably create if I had a business

00:25:21.560 | that could support me.

00:25:22.840 | They get excited about if I quit everything,

00:25:25.320 | this could be so dramatic,

00:25:26.540 | that's gonna feel really exciting and I want that hit.

00:25:29.440 | The problem is that hit wears off in about a day

00:25:32.120 | and you still have to create a business.

00:25:35.240 | I wrote about this in 2012 in So Good They Can't Ignore You

00:25:38.760 | where I was saying, oh, you have to be very careful

00:25:42.100 | about courage culture, I called it,

00:25:44.260 | that lionizes the feeling of making a courageous decision.

00:25:49.780 | That that's a trap.

00:25:50.980 | That yeah, that feels good and then it wears off.

00:25:53.560 | So like what you need to focus on is execution.

00:25:56.020 | Entrepreneurship is rife with that, right?

00:25:58.940 | The people that they really just want the hit

00:26:01.500 | of I'm doing my own thing

00:26:03.780 | and just calling themselves entrepreneur, which is fine,

00:26:07.780 | but it blinds them to it.

00:26:08.860 | How do I actually, what do I do day two?

00:26:11.140 | What do I do day three?

00:26:12.380 | How do I actually execute?

00:26:14.100 | So I'm assuming you see a lot of that as well.

00:26:16.020 | Courage feels good for like 24 hours.

00:26:19.200 | And what I believe is that everyone can be an entrepreneur

00:26:22.700 | and everyone is courageous.

00:26:24.700 | And what I found through myself,

00:26:27.120 | putting this book together in the past four years

00:26:29.860 | is how afraid I was of putting the book together.

00:26:32.260 | And then realizing that what's the hard thing we're avoiding

00:26:37.620 | for everyone out there.

00:26:39.180 | And most of us know that reality.

00:26:40.700 | We know that answer.

00:26:41.800 | Like, hey, I don't like my job.

00:26:42.960 | I don't like my partner.

00:26:43.800 | I don't like where I live.

00:26:45.300 | I don't like that I'm not consistent.

00:26:46.840 | I like that I'm too consistent.

00:26:49.100 | And then being mindful, aware that, okay,

00:26:51.060 | if I can face this problem,

00:26:52.040 | what's on the other side of that?

00:26:53.440 | And that was this book experience for me.

00:26:55.140 | And that's what this book to me is for other people.

00:26:57.900 | It's like, what is the life that you want to be engineering

00:27:01.320 | and what are you afraid of that we can face?

00:27:02.940 | And I think you brought up a great point.

00:27:04.460 | I don't think it has to be some,

00:27:06.180 | I got to quit my job today thing.

00:27:07.940 | I think today you could literally right now, not how,

00:27:11.560 | post on social media, hey,

00:27:13.180 | I'm looking for one person to talk about gardening.

00:27:16.300 | You could text your WhatsApp friends or Discord

00:27:19.420 | or Slack or whatever.

00:27:20.820 | Hey, I was thinking about starting a newsletter

00:27:24.080 | about AI for 10 bucks a month.

00:27:25.760 | Does anyone want to join that?

00:27:27.820 | And that's courageous, you know, in the book,

00:27:30.120 | there's so many books about entrepreneurship.

00:27:32.340 | There's only a place called Harvard.

00:27:33.780 | I don't know if you've heard of it

00:27:34.660 | that teaches entrepreneurship.

00:27:36.460 | - I know.

00:27:37.300 | - But then how come everyone's not being entrepreneurs?

00:27:39.060 | - Yeah.

00:27:39.900 | - And it's because they're scared, right?

00:27:41.420 | And they're led to believe it's this thing

00:27:43.460 | that there's a big gap that they can't do it.

00:27:45.380 | And you have to listen to more things or be prepared.

00:27:47.980 | But the reality is that everyone can start today.

00:27:51.820 | And then the other part of it

00:27:52.700 | that we've talked about in courageous

00:27:53.980 | is that you have to practice the fear of asking.

00:27:56.640 | - Yeah.

00:27:57.480 | - And both these things of starting and asking

00:27:58.740 | are really what hold most people back.

00:28:00.740 | And when they do it, they realize like, holy crap,

00:28:02.980 | confidence is built through courage.

00:28:04.880 | And it doesn't have to be a big thing,

00:28:06.500 | but it can be small things that compound

00:28:08.900 | over significant periods of time.

00:28:10.720 | - Yeah.

00:28:11.560 | Well, this is real courage versus fake courage maybe, right?

00:28:14.260 | The real courage is the thing

00:28:16.060 | that people really need courage for

00:28:18.120 | is I'm gonna do something

00:28:19.260 | where I could get negative feedback right away.

00:28:21.020 | I could fail right away.

00:28:21.920 | It could be clear.

00:28:22.760 | I'm gonna ask someone,

00:28:23.580 | would you like to subscribe to my newsletter?

00:28:25.420 | Like that's where you need real courage.

00:28:27.380 | It's almost like fake courage

00:28:28.620 | where it's I'm gonna make a big grandiose gesture,

00:28:31.740 | but I can just do that.

00:28:32.760 | Like I'm not gonna say I'm quitting my job

00:28:35.220 | to start a company.

00:28:36.160 | And then the universe says, you know, you're not allowed.

00:28:38.460 | Like, oh, I failed at it.

00:28:39.500 | There's no real courage in it

00:28:41.020 | in the sense that you're not getting,

00:28:43.940 | it's not something you can fail at in the moment.

00:28:46.060 | So yeah, you're right.

00:28:46.900 | We have the fake courage

00:28:48.700 | of let me make a big declaration on social media

00:28:51.100 | about how I'm quitting my job.

00:28:52.820 | But the real courage is, let me put this out here.

00:28:55.580 | Will you actually buy this?

00:28:58.340 | I get this a lot.

00:28:59.240 | I don't know if you've seen this

00:29:00.500 | when you were thinking about writing a book.

00:29:01.660 | A lot of nonfiction writers come to me like this

00:29:03.980 | where they wanna do the big gesture.

00:29:05.620 | I'm gonna write a book.

00:29:06.780 | But as soon as you give them the real steps you have to do,

00:29:10.260 | which all involve you having to put yourself

00:29:12.700 | or your idea out there and try to get someone

00:29:14.500 | to sign off on it, they do anything they can to avoid that.

00:29:17.800 | It's like, no, I don't wanna try to talk to an agent.

00:29:20.100 | The agent could say no.

00:29:21.380 | I don't wanna like pitch this book to a publisher.

00:29:23.620 | They could say no.

00:29:24.460 | So what I've done is I've invested a lot of money

00:29:26.420 | into this PR firm and I'm gonna build up a following

00:29:29.380 | for my self-published book

00:29:30.580 | and it's gonna become so successful

00:29:32.420 | that the publishers are gonna beg me to sell.

00:29:34.980 | There's a real conversation I had.

00:29:36.420 | I was like, you've just engineered

00:29:38.340 | every point of acute failure out of your plan.

00:29:40.820 | That's what you're doing there.

00:29:42.260 | You've invented a path to publishing a book

00:29:44.300 | that does not really exist so that you never have

00:29:47.040 | to have real courage of an agent saying,

00:29:50.800 | you know what, this idea is not there.

00:29:52.500 | Let's take a quick break to talk about one of the sponsors

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00:33:24.880 | All right, let's get back to it.

00:33:26.260 | Oh, you're not the right person to ride, yeah, keep trying.

00:33:28.180 | Yeah, people go a long way to get away

00:33:29.920 | from that type of real courage.

00:33:33.140 | So maybe we've coined a new term here.

00:33:35.860 | Yeah, real courage requires I might fail right away.

00:33:39.260 | - Yeah, and everyone can do it.

00:33:41.100 | I truly believe that.

00:33:42.480 | And it's really just facing yourself.

00:33:44.260 | And if you think about driving,

00:33:45.940 | like when you went to your office today,

00:33:47.980 | or you're driving somewhere,

00:33:49.020 | you have a destination and you plan a route.

00:33:51.500 | And most people, it's very fun to plan the route,

00:33:53.200 | but when you start driving, the route might change,

00:33:55.320 | but that only happens when you start driving.

00:33:57.220 | And same with swimming, same with cooking,

00:33:58.820 | same with everything in life,

00:33:59.940 | is that you can't learn it not being in the kitchen.

00:34:02.200 | You're not gonna swim sitting outside the pool.

00:34:04.800 | And when people post something today,

00:34:07.040 | or ask one person today,

00:34:08.820 | and realize they can get started today, huh?

00:34:11.560 | Like when you were talking about this fake courage,

00:34:13.620 | it made me think through therapy,

00:34:16.100 | and I found I have a lot of anxiety when I'm home alone.

00:34:20.740 | And my therapist would always kind of say,

00:34:22.160 | "The only way in is through."

00:34:23.860 | And I was just like, "What are you talking about?"

00:34:26.340 | Like, "I don't appreciate your in is through.

00:34:29.420 | I'm trying to go through, man."

00:34:30.660 | So I would do this grandiose things where I'm like,

00:34:32.520 | "I'm gonna go in the woods alone for a week."

00:34:34.720 | And that's what I would do.

00:34:36.100 | And I would just be alone, I turn my phone,

00:34:38.140 | and I come home and I'm like, "Okay, I did it.

00:34:39.760 | I'm not afraid of being alone."

00:34:41.380 | And he was like, "Dude, life still goes on.

00:34:43.780 | What about today?"

00:34:45.340 | And my reality, I don't really share this,

00:34:48.540 | but it's like, yeah, now when I'm home on a Saturday,

00:34:50.820 | there's a moment where it hits and I'm afraid,

00:34:53.460 | and I'm anxious, what am I doing today?

00:34:55.820 | And it's like, "Oh, cool.

00:34:57.260 | This is a chance for me to learn who I can become."

00:35:00.100 | Yes, it's still hard, but it's something that we're now

00:35:02.340 | with positive self-talk and experiencing it,

00:35:04.560 | that is going through it on an ongoing basis.

00:35:06.700 | And it's available worldwide for free

00:35:08.800 | for everyone to face these things and do things.

00:35:11.380 | Again, today, I think that's the myth entrepreneurship.

00:35:14.700 | Like, "Ah, I don't know, I need to wait for my domain.

00:35:16.980 | I need to wait for this patent thing."

00:35:18.700 | No, you need to talk to one person,

00:35:21.340 | put yourself out there just a little bit,

00:35:22.820 | and see what happens.

00:35:23.660 | I think you'll be shocked.

00:35:25.620 | All right, so let's get back now to the nitty-gritty.

00:35:28.260 | So I caught my attention here, I think it's a cool idea.

00:35:31.740 | You recommend getting your first one to three customers

00:35:34.360 | way earlier in the process than people think.

00:35:37.420 | People think, "Customers come after I've perfected

00:35:40.480 | everything and have my idea figured out."

00:35:42.660 | You say you should be getting one to three customers

00:35:44.420 | in the first 48 hours, you get your freedom number,

00:35:46.740 | and almost the next thing you should do

00:35:48.380 | is be trying to get customers.

00:35:49.700 | Walk us through this inversion here.

00:35:53.860 | - Yeah, the inversion here is that most people

00:35:57.460 | are founder first, so they're like, "I got this problem,"

00:35:59.760 | which is good, you should always be your first customer

00:36:01.620 | and make things that you're excited to make.

00:36:03.860 | But then they're like, "I'm gonna go build it,

00:36:05.540 | and then I'm gonna try to find problems

00:36:07.860 | to then eat my solution."

00:36:10.100 | And they're like, "Damn, this is hard."

00:36:11.940 | But the reality, which is actually a lot easier of a path,

00:36:14.600 | if people wanna make it easier on themselves,

00:36:17.140 | is just really thinking customer first.

00:36:18.820 | So what's the expertise you have

00:36:20.380 | or areas you're interested in,

00:36:21.420 | and who are in your zones of influence?

00:36:23.980 | So someone emailed me yesterday, and he said,

00:36:27.760 | "I wanna do stuff in real estate, I know two people,

00:36:30.000 | I wanna do stuff in kidneys, I know one person,

00:36:32.300 | but I think I'm gonna try to do something online

00:36:35.480 | in this area, I know no one."

00:36:36.980 | - Yeah.

00:36:38.260 | - I was like, "Okay, why don't you try both?"

00:36:40.940 | Again, it doesn't have to be binary, and see what happens.

00:36:44.940 | And what I'm encouraging people to do is work backwards

00:36:47.440 | from how to make it easier on yourself.

00:36:49.740 | Like, I've been in tech this world since I was a little kid,

00:36:53.180 | and so it's easier for me to understand it

00:36:55.020 | and succeed in it, doesn't mean you can't.

00:36:57.300 | Well, why would people wanna make it harder on themselves?

00:37:00.200 | - Yeah, okay, so excellent.

00:37:03.200 | So then you have a customer too, or you've learned

00:37:07.980 | in failing to get a customer for this idea,

00:37:09.940 | like, okay, there's like something not going on,

00:37:11.920 | like this general area I'm exploring,

00:37:13.900 | I'm not getting friction.

00:37:16.100 | Over here though, like someone's interested in it.

00:37:18.620 | So you get to a point where you have a few people

00:37:21.140 | buying your greeting cards, right?

00:37:23.560 | Now what's the growth?

00:37:25.140 | Now we're thinking about the growth.

00:37:26.460 | And you talk about zero to one is probably the hardest.

00:37:29.500 | One to 100, 100 to 1,000, 1,000 to a million,

00:37:32.220 | like these steps are no harder than zero to one.

00:37:35.180 | But how do you now that we're at one,

00:37:37.660 | what's the right way to think about those next growth steps?

00:37:40.820 | - Yeah, most people don't become millionaires

00:37:42.840 | 'cause they never make a dollar, is what I've noticed.

00:37:46.540 | As I asked you, I'm like,

00:37:47.380 | "Oh, how much money have you made in your business?"

00:37:48.500 | Zero.

00:37:49.340 | "How long have you been doing it?"

00:37:50.160 | 12 months.

00:37:51.060 | Okay, maybe there's another way to approach it.

00:37:52.800 | And so again, coming back to the customer first approach,

00:37:55.140 | how do we get three customers this weekend?

00:37:57.380 | And guess what?

00:37:58.220 | If you didn't get any, awesome.

00:37:59.940 | You didn't waste money.

00:38:00.780 | You didn't buy Shopify.

00:38:01.940 | You didn't get a domain.

00:38:03.380 | You didn't hire people and spend all this money.

00:38:05.340 | And then all these people that weren't interested

00:38:07.020 | in what you are doing, you can ask them why not.

00:38:10.020 | Hey, how come you weren't interested?

00:38:10.900 | Because I don't care about lawn care.

00:38:13.800 | Because I don't wanna buy a greeting card

00:38:15.340 | because I don't need consulting on this thing.

00:38:16.860 | Okay, well, tell me more what you're doing.

00:38:19.140 | And if you start listening to people,

00:38:20.780 | listen to yourself and listen to others,

00:38:22.180 | they'll just tell you their problems.

00:38:24.300 | And those are all business opportunities.

00:38:25.940 | And so the scale is generally not the harder part.

00:38:29.140 | It's getting going and then practicing

00:38:31.140 | the skills of starting and asking, right?

00:38:34.660 | Because that's what all business is.

00:38:36.020 | It's just like this show.

00:38:36.840 | It's like, you're asking me questions and I'm answering.

00:38:38.620 | And if you wanna ask for a raise,

00:38:40.480 | if you wanna ask for a husband or wife,

00:38:42.660 | and you have to do the same thing in business,

00:38:43.820 | you have to ask for customers.

00:38:45.180 | And that is something that everyone can practice.

00:38:47.580 | And then you've heard me talk about the coffee challenge.

00:38:49.420 | It's in "Million Dollar Weekend."

00:38:51.500 | And it's practicing asking at a coffee shop for a discount.

00:38:54.460 | And then ideally you get rejected.

00:38:56.100 | You ask for 10% off, you get rejected.

00:38:58.300 | And you're like, oh, that's not so scary.

00:39:00.400 | What's next?

00:39:01.980 | And then when you get to a customer,

00:39:03.580 | you can ask them to buy your service.

00:39:04.940 | You're rejected or not.

00:39:05.940 | And then you find out, wow, have you been practicing it?

00:39:07.700 | This is a lot easier.

00:39:09.260 | Now, the two things I would say,

00:39:11.340 | once you've gotten your three customers

00:39:12.700 | is delivering for those three people.

00:39:15.160 | The best businesses are the ones that work.

00:39:17.380 | And people in life stop doing the things

00:39:20.940 | that got them successful.

00:39:22.380 | I don't know if you've noticed that.

00:39:24.180 | A lot of times in life, it's like,

00:39:25.180 | hey, how'd you get to this point?

00:39:26.300 | Well, I did therapy, I worked out.

00:39:29.060 | Maybe I have this morning routine.

00:39:30.220 | Maybe I've read all Cal Newport's books.

00:39:31.960 | I'm good with my technology.

00:39:33.780 | Well, how's it going today?

00:39:34.600 | Yeah, I'm not really doing that much.

00:39:36.140 | Okay, just go back and do more of what works.

00:39:38.220 | And so the two kind of frameworks

00:39:41.520 | that have helped AppSumo and myself,

00:39:44.240 | and I think now tens of thousands of other people.

00:39:47.160 | One is this law of 100 concept.

00:39:49.120 | And literally, we have a website,

00:39:50.740 | we're gonna have a free app around this.

00:39:52.140 | But it's like, do the thing 100 times and then quit.

00:39:55.120 | - Interesting, interesting.

00:39:58.260 | Not before.

00:39:59.100 | - No, so once you've had success,

00:40:01.500 | so let's say, and what I mean by success is customers.

00:40:04.340 | People are like, yeah, this woman, what was her name?

00:40:06.940 | Stephanie, email me.

00:40:07.780 | She's like, yeah, I got my first customer five bucks.

00:40:10.420 | I'm like, hell yeah, you did.

00:40:12.700 | I'm like, you don't think AppSumo first sale, $12?

00:40:15.920 | - Yeah.

00:40:16.760 | - Yesterday sales, $333,000 in a day.

00:40:20.260 | But I started with 12 bucks.

00:40:21.760 | That's how every business starts.

00:40:23.100 | That's how everything starts, just one.

00:40:25.600 | And so the concepts I would say is do this law of 100,

00:40:28.760 | which is like do 100 posts on social media if that's it.

00:40:31.280 | Do 100 calls, do 100 clients, do 100 days,

00:40:34.500 | and then have a checklist just each day.

00:40:36.640 | And then at the end of it, then you quit.

00:40:39.040 | And what happens is people, by the end of the hundreds,

00:40:40.920 | they're like, actually, this is working.

00:40:42.380 | I'm like, I know.

00:40:43.640 | Just keep doing it.

00:40:44.560 | And then the other part that people need to really think

00:40:48.440 | about in business and frankly in life for engineering is

00:40:51.240 | how do you just keep doubling down what's working?

00:40:53.460 | - Yes.

00:40:54.920 | - And that's one of these annoying maxims and cliches

00:40:57.680 | that we all hear but we don't actually embrace.

00:41:00.600 | Let me tell you an example literally from 7 a.m. today.

00:41:03.400 | We built this thing called a business idea generator

00:41:05.600 | at AppSumo.

00:41:06.440 | We spent like two months,

00:41:08.640 | and I don't know, with soft developers and stuff,

00:41:10.640 | it was probably like 30,000, maybe 20 to 40, to build it.

00:41:14.680 | We've never launched it, never finished it.

00:41:17.520 | And someone on the team's like, oh, we should launch it.

00:41:19.720 | And another person's like, yeah, it'll only take 10 hours.

00:41:22.980 | I was like, okay, well, what's already working

00:41:26.440 | in the business?

00:41:27.280 | It's like, oh, we have this product, tidycal.com.

00:41:29.040 | It's a Calendly alternative.

00:41:30.860 | It's growing like a weed.

00:41:32.560 | - I like tidycal, by the way.

00:41:33.680 | It's a great product.

00:41:34.520 | - Oh, yeah, like AppSumo.

00:41:36.120 | We hate subscriptions.

00:41:37.280 | - Yep. - Down with subscriptions

00:41:38.200 | on software.

00:41:39.040 | We built this anti-subscription calendar tool

00:41:41.480 | called TidyCal.

00:41:42.500 | I'm like, all right, well, 10 hours in TidyCal,

00:41:44.240 | I know is working.

00:41:45.960 | Why don't we just keep doing that?

00:41:47.580 | And I just, I used to try all these things.

00:41:50.040 | We're like, okay, this is working,

00:41:51.000 | but I'm gonna go off and play on these other areas.

00:41:53.660 | And I've seen, like, if you just kept doing more

00:41:56.240 | of what works, and that's why we always use that phrase,

00:41:58.080 | just double down, keep doing more of what works,

00:42:00.640 | you keep getting the success that you got.

00:42:02.460 | So in business, really, in life, just look backwards.

00:42:05.280 | How'd you get your first three customers?

00:42:07.040 | Ah, I just DM'd people on Twitter.

00:42:09.400 | How many of you DM'd today?

00:42:11.060 | None, okay, do that.

00:42:12.660 | How'd you get first three customers?

00:42:13.600 | Referrals.

00:42:14.500 | Have you done that?

00:42:15.340 | No, do more of that.

00:42:16.160 | And people get really obsessed,

00:42:17.740 | and I will tell you, we have a two-person

00:42:20.800 | business intelligence team.

00:42:22.120 | We spend a million dollars a year just on data.

00:42:24.120 | At AppSumo, just on data.

00:42:25.860 | Like, we do very complicated stuff.

00:42:27.680 | And people kind of laugh sometimes when I'm telling them,

00:42:29.780 | like, yeah, you just DM, 'cause that's what worked.

00:42:32.720 | Like, no, no, no, tell me the secret stuff.

00:42:34.280 | I'm like, you don't need the secret stuff.

00:42:35.680 | Yeah, that doesn't help for you right now.

00:42:37.480 | - Yeah, I love the double-down idea, by the way,

00:42:39.960 | when I came across that, because it seems like

00:42:41.840 | everyone I know who's doing something entrepreneurial,

00:42:44.160 | very successful, this is a real common thread.

00:42:47.480 | This is working.

00:42:48.800 | Like, we found a fitness peak in the fitness landscape

00:42:52.440 | that we're moving up the slope.

00:42:54.080 | Let's just pick up our pace.

00:42:55.840 | Like, we know this is actually working,

00:42:58.400 | acquiring customers this way,

00:42:59.840 | offering them this type of thing.

00:43:01.560 | Why don't we keep pushing that

00:43:02.760 | till that thing is no longer going?

00:43:05.080 | - You know, I think a weird, and tell me if this is wrong,

00:43:07.720 | but to me, like, an interesting, isolated,

00:43:10.840 | purified example of that is, like, in the YouTube world,

00:43:14.020 | this is what, like, MrBeast did.

00:43:15.880 | He sort of figured out, like, what's working on videos

00:43:19.860 | that the algorithm is recommending on YouTube?

00:43:22.120 | And they just kept doubling down.

00:43:23.480 | Like, let's clarify that.

00:43:24.640 | Let's make that even bigger.

00:43:25.680 | Let's spend more money.

00:43:26.520 | Let's get rid of more of the stuff that's not working.

00:43:28.920 | We don't need to invent a new format.

00:43:30.940 | We don't need to do what we think is gonna work.

00:43:32.560 | This is working.

00:43:33.400 | Let's double the amount of money.

00:43:36.240 | Let's double the stakes.

00:43:37.280 | Let's, you know, it was just this continual doubling down,

00:43:40.480 | and they end up in this interesting place

00:43:42.020 | where you might spend $20 million on a video

00:43:45.480 | and get 200 million views on the video,

00:43:47.520 | just everything scaled up,

00:43:49.440 | but it's probably the same template he had

00:43:52.020 | when it was 100,000 views

00:43:53.400 | and they were spending $10,000 on a video.

00:43:55.520 | They just kept pushing, right?

00:43:57.240 | This, let's keep going.

00:43:59.220 | I see that all the time.

00:44:01.620 | It's weird, though, because people don't wanna do that.

00:44:04.420 | I don't know why you would think that would be our instinct,

00:44:06.560 | but people like the platform you're working on,

00:44:09.720 | they have this idea of there's gonna be some other idea

00:44:14.620 | that's gonna really take things up.

00:44:17.600 | I mean, look, this is Steve Jobs returning to Apple in '97.

00:44:21.520 | What's working?

00:44:22.360 | Like, people like these Macs, so get rid of all the junk.

00:44:26.520 | Let's make it much clearer what we sell.

00:44:29.260 | We have two groups.

00:44:30.260 | Let's just be as clear as possible.

00:44:32.400 | This is what we are doing for you

00:44:34.080 | and just push those things.

00:44:35.400 | You know, it's just clarity.

00:44:36.840 | But I'm also self-assessing here, though, Noah,

00:44:40.200 | because I should be doing this in parts of my life,

00:44:42.420 | and I know, I know I'm not.

00:44:46.080 | I know I should be doing this with my podcast

00:44:48.840 | or there's elements I know that really worked

00:44:51.260 | I really should be doubling down on, but it's hard.

00:44:53.800 | I don't know why that psychology is so hard,

00:44:55.640 | but hey, this is working.

00:44:56.600 | This did better than this.

00:44:57.760 | Do more of this.

00:44:59.200 | It's interesting why that's so hard.

00:45:02.020 | - Yeah, there's a, I don't know which woman said it,

00:45:04.500 | but there's a famous quote that I like,

00:45:06.160 | which is like, if you want variety in dating,

00:45:08.920 | date one person.

00:45:10.040 | And you know, you're married,

00:45:12.860 | and I'm in a committed relationship, about to have a child,

00:45:15.180 | and the idea that people need to consider is like,

00:45:18.220 | how do I find the thing I'm enjoying

00:45:19.600 | and that I can just keep going deeper and deeper

00:45:21.140 | and deeper and on, because success is boring.

00:45:23.340 | 'Cause it's working.

00:45:26.000 | And I remember I went to my business partner, Chad,

00:45:28.060 | who's a CTO, he's one of my best friends.

00:45:30.120 | I'm like, Chad, you like doing all the boring stuff.

00:45:32.760 | And I like starting new stuff.

00:45:34.020 | I'm the new guy.

00:45:35.280 | And he's like, shut up, dude.

00:45:36.780 | I like new stuff too, everyone does.

00:45:38.660 | And you know, in my forties,

00:45:41.540 | I would say what's exciting to me is things that work

00:45:45.140 | and just making them work better.

00:45:46.400 | And I joke about this.

00:45:48.820 | I bought this house from an NFL kicker, the one I live in.

00:45:52.180 | And I just joke, I texted this guy.

00:45:54.620 | I was like, dude, what's your work week like?

00:45:57.300 | (both laughing)

00:45:59.940 | Think about his days, eight to five.

00:46:02.140 | He's like, what'd you do to kick the ball?

00:46:04.280 | And then his job is like 10 seconds on a Sunday

00:46:08.140 | for a few months.

00:46:09.500 | And it's something we've all stuck with things

00:46:13.380 | for long periods of time.

00:46:14.300 | I think people don't give themselves enough credit.

00:46:16.280 | Like you've probably stuck with brushing your teeth,

00:46:17.820 | ideally twice a day.

00:46:19.220 | Or you've stuck with certain habits

00:46:20.780 | and you maybe haven't given yourself enough credit for it.

00:46:23.100 | And then thinking about, okay,

00:46:24.260 | what are these elements in my personal life

00:46:26.980 | as well in professional life,

00:46:28.260 | ideally in entrepreneurship or in your job?

00:46:30.540 | And how can I replicate that?

00:46:32.860 | And in terms of engineering your life,

00:46:34.580 | like you can replicate the ones that generally

00:46:36.620 | haven't been as much work for you.

00:46:39.060 | Right, so with YouTube content,

00:46:40.820 | we found this video where I knock on doors works.

00:46:44.220 | I just go knock on people's doors.

00:46:46.300 | Every one of our videos was me knocking on doors.

00:46:48.640 | Now the reality there is over time,

00:46:50.700 | it's just, it's very stressful for me.

00:46:53.440 | It's very anxiety and it's not sustainable.

00:46:56.240 | And in terms of success,

00:46:58.440 | what I find very sexy is longevity.

00:47:00.580 | And so you have to find the Venn diagram in success,

00:47:05.440 | which is what do you like and what does the world want?

00:47:08.220 | And so now with content, and I'd even say with AppSumo

00:47:10.580 | is how do I do these things for 10 years?

00:47:12.720 | How do I do it for 10 years?

00:47:14.700 | So if I'm doing content like knock on doors,

00:47:16.060 | I cannot do that for 10 years.

00:47:17.640 | - Yep.

00:47:18.480 | - And there's a lot more, I want more glorification.

00:47:20.500 | I want more sexification on sustainability

00:47:23.800 | 'cause there's a lot of glory.

00:47:24.960 | And like you made, you got rich this year off crypto

00:47:27.340 | or you got rich off some,

00:47:28.620 | like this YouTube is big all of a sudden.

00:47:30.040 | It's like be big over 20 years.

00:47:32.300 | - Yeah.

00:47:33.140 | - And you know, I've worked for billionaires

00:47:34.180 | and I've interviewed a lot of them on my channel

00:47:36.400 | and they find things they're excited to work on

00:47:38.720 | and they get rich after 20 years.

00:47:41.140 | And those are really interesting nuances.

00:47:42.960 | It's like, ah, find something that works.

00:47:45.100 | Find something I enjoy that works for me and my lifestyle.

00:47:48.200 | I think that's missed out upon,

00:47:49.780 | especially on Silicon Valley

00:47:51.520 | and then stick with that for a long period of time

00:47:53.100 | and live a great life.

00:47:54.440 | Yeah.

00:47:55.420 | And finally be happy that there's enough with it.

00:47:58.280 | Really, I can do it that way?

00:47:59.240 | Yeah, you can.

00:48:00.760 | - Yep.

00:48:01.600 | Well, you know who I think personifies that often?

00:48:04.200 | Is novelist.

00:48:05.640 | It's something I've studied

00:48:06.920 | and it's actually, there's two categories of novelist

00:48:09.360 | and I call them the Michael Crichton's and the John Grisham's

00:48:11.520 | because they capture the two different mindsets.

00:48:16.520 | Crichton was all about I want to do everything, right?

00:48:20.340 | Oh, my novel's doing well, I want to direct,

00:48:22.380 | I want to screen write,

00:48:23.740 | I want to start my own production company,

00:48:25.720 | I want to do television.

00:48:27.540 | He saw I have my foot in the door,

00:48:30.580 | now I want to do everything.

00:48:32.380 | Grisham on the other hand said, great, The Firm did well,

00:48:35.520 | his second book, The Firm did well, great.

00:48:37.380 | I can quit my job, I can move to some property

00:48:41.900 | and I can just write for six months a year

00:48:43.980 | and then the other six months a year,

00:48:45.580 | I'm going to be the commissioner of my kids' little league.

00:48:47.620 | He bought a bunch of fields

00:48:48.980 | and built a really nice little league complex

00:48:50.680 | and loves baseballs, I want to coach baseball.

00:48:52.900 | And a lot of novelists follow the Grisham approach,

00:48:55.680 | which is this is great.

00:48:57.640 | I hope no one notices but I'm making a living

00:49:00.060 | just writing a book every year and it's all I have to do

00:49:03.200 | and I have to do publicity for like three weeks

00:49:05.340 | because fiction writer publicity, what can you do, right?

00:49:08.760 | I mean, there's only so much you can do

00:49:10.040 | and you have a name and they're just happy with it

00:49:12.600 | and they live in cool places.

00:49:14.180 | They tend to live in cool places

00:49:15.860 | and have really cool offices.

00:49:17.280 | So I think there's a whole cadre of fiction writers

00:49:20.120 | that are great at this.

00:49:21.320 | I can do this well,

00:49:22.420 | I want to do this for the rest of my life.

00:49:24.220 | I hope no one takes away my ability to just write

00:49:26.860 | and I don't do anything else

00:49:28.740 | but you don't see these fiction writers

00:49:32.120 | with seven business ideas

00:49:34.060 | and they own a bunch of car dealerships

00:49:36.120 | and they're just like, I write books, it's great.

00:49:38.420 | Isn't this crazy?

00:49:39.260 | Like people are paying me to do this.

00:49:40.620 | So we can all learn from John Grisham, I guess,

00:49:43.940 | even though our temptations to be Michael Crichton.

00:49:46.900 | - Well, I think your comment here is what I've observed

00:49:49.340 | from tens of thousands of people

00:49:51.260 | and talking with them in Million Dollar Weekend

00:49:53.380 | and meeting them.

00:49:54.900 | Most people don't believe

00:49:55.940 | they can actually live these dream lives

00:49:58.300 | and the dream life, it doesn't have to be

00:50:00.400 | what people imagine.

00:50:01.240 | That's where even the freedom number comes in.

00:50:02.740 | It could be literally, so my buddy Tynan's here,

00:50:04.780 | his dream life is getting up at 10,

00:50:07.500 | drinking tea from 10 to 12.

00:50:10.580 | - Playing pinball for the next three hours, is that what?

00:50:13.220 | - Well, no, no, so pinball's at night.

00:50:14.420 | So he does a pinball tournament with his wife,

00:50:16.900 | but from like 12 to five, he'll do like house projects.

00:50:19.700 | And then he has a cruise site, cruisesheet.com.

00:50:22.340 | And then from like seven to 10,

00:50:24.100 | he'll do a pinball tournament with his wife,

00:50:25.380 | hot tub, steam room, which he built his own steam room

00:50:27.640 | and built his own secret pinball room.

00:50:29.380 | And that's his dream life.

00:50:30.860 | And guess what?

00:50:31.700 | He's living it.

00:50:32.520 | And it's not as expensive as people think, but that's his.

00:50:35.160 | And I don't think people realize

00:50:36.540 | that their dream life is possible

00:50:39.500 | and it's actually not as far away as they imagine.

00:50:41.720 | Like my dream life is not, I get anxiety, I like working.

00:50:45.560 | I like it, I love it.

00:50:46.520 | I was up at 6 a.m. working today.

00:50:48.240 | I'm so excited about this book.

00:50:49.480 | I'm so excited promoting software deals.

00:50:51.900 | I like making content.

00:50:53.520 | Tynan doesn't, and he's okay with that too.

00:50:55.660 | He's okay, he puts out a blog post every month.

00:50:57.760 | That's great.

00:50:58.860 | And I think when people think about

00:51:00.320 | how do they wanna end the year,

00:51:02.140 | that's a really like fixed good timeframe, I think,

00:51:04.240 | for people to have clarity on.

00:51:05.760 | You can write out how that dream life looks like.

00:51:08.400 | And then, huh, maybe like when you talk

00:51:10.140 | about lifestyle engineering,

00:51:10.980 | you can work backwards from that.

00:51:11.880 | Maybe, what can I start today

00:51:13.400 | that actually gets me a little closer to that?

00:51:15.280 | - Yeah.

00:51:16.120 | - And for me, it took me, I don't know, man,

00:51:18.140 | 15 years to finally get it.

00:51:20.280 | It takes time, and so be patient and kind along the way.

00:51:23.040 | And one kind of hack that I've done the past five years,

00:51:28.040 | give or take five years,

00:51:29.400 | is just review my week at the end of each week.

00:51:31.640 | - Yeah.

00:51:32.960 | - And you start doing these things,

00:51:33.880 | you're like, oh, this week sucked because of this meeting.

00:51:35.700 | This week sucked because of this,

00:51:37.040 | or here's what sucked because of me.

00:51:38.880 | And then you say, well, how can I make next week better?

00:51:41.300 | And you start doing that week after week

00:51:42.940 | after week after week.

00:51:44.740 | And like I have it every week.

00:51:45.700 | I have my review later today.

00:51:47.080 | I just have this automatic review on Slack notification.

00:51:49.780 | - Well, this is part of what I liked about your book

00:51:52.980 | and why I wanted you on the show,

00:51:54.260 | is you're almost unique, I think,

00:51:57.020 | among people, especially Silicon Valley people,

00:51:59.700 | talking about entrepreneurship and how congruent you are

00:52:02.880 | with the way we talk about this on the show,

00:52:05.020 | which is we always are emphasizing.

00:52:07.860 | You need to picture your ideal lifestyle holistically.

00:52:11.820 | It's everything about your life.

00:52:13.660 | What does your day look like?

00:52:15.760 | Are you walking outside into the woods

00:52:19.020 | or are you walking down like a cool city street

00:52:21.420 | to like an interesting coffee shop?

00:52:23.920 | Are you like a master of the universe,

00:52:26.660 | making moves and things,

00:52:28.240 | or at least that kind of appeal to you?

00:52:30.140 | Or is it the like, I'm having tea

00:52:32.520 | and there's gonna be like the hot...

00:52:34.820 | Don't get specific about like, this is the specific city

00:52:38.020 | where I live, specific job,

00:52:38.920 | but like what are the attributes of your day?

00:52:41.160 | Do you imagine like sitting outside?

00:52:42.980 | I'm on my back patio and we have cafe lights

00:52:44.900 | and like my family and friends are over

00:52:46.580 | and we're just kind of like shooting the breeze

00:52:48.460 | just out like having something,

00:52:49.360 | just like a real social aspect.

00:52:51.020 | What resonates?

00:52:52.520 | Non-specific in terms of I live exactly here,

00:52:54.820 | I do exactly this, and then figure out how I get there.

00:52:57.980 | And for a lot of people, this leads them to places

00:53:01.600 | that they didn't think about before

00:53:03.600 | because what we tend to do

00:53:04.680 | without that holistic type of assessment,

00:53:06.500 | which your book really pushes,

00:53:07.660 | and I wanna touch here in a second on your last chapter,

00:53:09.640 | which like gets systematic,

00:53:11.260 | let's get into color-coded calendars here.

00:53:14.060 | When people don't do that,

00:53:16.600 | they overprice the feeling of pride

00:53:19.840 | that comes with elite professional accomplishment.

00:53:23.160 | And they say this is the thing that's gonna matter most.

00:53:25.640 | Like so in Silicon Valley,

00:53:26.720 | I'm assuming there's a real pressure for,

00:53:29.360 | yeah, but imagine that feeling

00:53:30.660 | when you're king of the roost,

00:53:31.700 | you just had the billion dollar IPO.

00:53:34.740 | And like that's gonna feel really good.

00:53:36.060 | And I'm sure it does kind of feel good

00:53:37.260 | and you have some pride with that.

00:53:39.500 | But how valuable is that compared to everything else?

00:53:42.180 | How long does, I mean,

00:53:43.300 | versus all of these other things

00:53:44.780 | are important to your life,

00:53:45.860 | don't overprice that

00:53:47.140 | as if that's gonna be the most important thing.

00:53:49.100 | Or if you're a writer,

00:53:50.280 | if my book is like number one

00:53:51.860 | in the New York Times bestseller,

00:53:52.900 | like that'll feel good,

00:53:55.560 | but also then like you're doing the dishes, right?

00:53:58.040 | And the day-to-day of your reality matters.

00:54:01.960 | So I love how you have this holistic approach as well.

00:54:05.180 | You're building a life.

00:54:07.000 | Your work is part of it because you need money

00:54:09.080 | and also you're gonna spend a lot of time on it.

00:54:10.880 | But you're building a life

00:54:12.760 | and there's a lot of different aspects of your life

00:54:14.840 | like pinball tournaments and doing hot tub pie.

00:54:17.840 | - Hot tub tournament.

00:54:19.160 | Well, we're not gonna turn them hot tub,

00:54:20.600 | but we're gonna pinball hot tub sauna,

00:54:22.440 | cold plunge after this.

00:54:23.840 | But the thing I would say

00:54:24.920 | just to kind of give people suggestions is

00:54:26.880 | it's possible and you have to start it

00:54:28.600 | 'cause it's not gonna happen overnight.

00:54:30.080 | It's gonna happen today.

00:54:31.040 | Like when I worked at Intel,

00:54:32.560 | if other people feel this way, let me know.

00:54:36.840 | I remember dreading Sundays.

00:54:39.280 | I was like, oh my God, please no.

00:54:41.640 | Just let me not have to work Monday ever again.

00:54:44.800 | And I think it's such an interesting thing

00:54:46.360 | to reflect on how you're feeling about your week.

00:54:49.400 | And if you have a job,

00:54:50.520 | you can't change your meetings necessarily.

00:54:52.080 | Like it's very hard to get out of that,

00:54:53.140 | but you can start making changes

00:54:54.680 | that can get you out of them over time.

00:54:57.280 | And I left Silicon Valley

00:54:58.640 | 'cause I noticed people were so obsessed

00:55:00.360 | with this external validation.

00:55:02.360 | Oh, you want a lifestyle business?

00:55:03.720 | I'm like, yeah, I want a life and a style and a business.

00:55:06.600 | Oh, you're not changing the world?

00:55:08.540 | Guess what?

00:55:09.380 | Changing the world is by changing yourself

00:55:11.800 | and then maybe just change one person.

00:55:14.880 | And I think a lot of people,

00:55:16.440 | you know, it's this external validation,

00:55:17.760 | how many subs, how much money.

00:55:19.540 | And then when you actually take a step back,

00:55:21.000 | how you wanna live,

00:55:22.560 | like, okay, maybe I don't actually care about all that stuff.

00:55:25.140 | Maybe I can, like for me,

00:55:26.880 | my dream and I wrote it down

00:55:28.380 | is to live half the year in Spain,

00:55:29.620 | half the year in America, in Texas,

00:55:31.840 | have a dog, have some kids,

00:55:33.920 | be able to work on promoting things,

00:55:35.320 | making content, talking to smart people like yourself,

00:55:37.240 | promoting your books.

00:55:38.880 | Like that's my dream, that's my life.

00:55:40.680 | I think most people, like they're one,

00:55:42.200 | our lives are already pretty great.

00:55:43.840 | And I think that's a good way

00:55:44.780 | to already be happy with our lives.

00:55:47.480 | 'Cause it's not like if I finally get there,

00:55:48.880 | I'm gonna be happier or my life will be complete.

00:55:51.160 | You'll still be yourself.

00:55:53.240 | But you can't get to a point,

00:55:54.260 | I promise you everyone out there.

00:55:56.160 | And I think about it, I'm like,

00:55:57.000 | I can't believe this is my life.

00:55:58.840 | And I'm like, wow, you know what?

00:55:59.680 | Everyone else can do this too.

00:56:00.600 | It's not some exclusive club.

00:56:02.760 | And you know, I think about people that are like,

00:56:07.180 | and I know them, they're like, oh, you know, I can't do it.

00:56:09.500 | And I'm like, take your power and do something today.

00:56:12.540 | - Yeah.

00:56:13.380 | - 'Cause maybe you don't like where you live,

00:56:14.280 | maybe you don't like your job, maybe you don't like hate.

00:56:16.040 | But guess what?

00:56:16.860 | If you start today, in five years,

00:56:18.380 | you're gonna thank yourself for listening to Cal Newport,

00:56:20.640 | I know, and then you tried it today, you got going,

00:56:23.040 | maybe didn't work, but you tried again and again and again,

00:56:24.680 | and then it started working.

00:56:26.000 | In five years from now, where could you be?

00:56:28.160 | And even your work could you be?

00:56:29.760 | - So it's something people get paralyzed by is they say,

00:56:33.580 | I don't have the full vision yet.

00:56:36.440 | Okay, I agree.

00:56:37.280 | Like, I don't wanna just get the external validation.

00:56:38.640 | I don't have the full vision yet, so I can't start.

00:56:40.520 | But one of your ideas is your vision for what matters

00:56:44.200 | gets refined as you start paying more attention

00:56:48.080 | and trying to do more that matters.

00:56:50.080 | It's like for you, for example,

00:56:51.160 | and maybe we'll use you as a case study.

00:56:53.020 | What was the path from you're at Intel,

00:56:55.440 | you know you don't like it, to your current situation

00:56:58.720 | where you've engineered, you just explained it to us.

00:57:01.280 | It's an intentional life that has a lot

00:57:03.280 | of very intentional specific aspects to it.

00:57:05.240 | I'm assuming at Intel, you did not write down

00:57:06.840 | on a piece of paper all of these aspects

00:57:09.320 | that you wanted in your life.

00:57:10.620 | So tell us a little bit about how you evolved

00:57:13.440 | from I don't like this to I really have a good sense

00:57:16.720 | of what I like.

00:57:19.080 | - It takes time and I would encourage everyone

00:57:21.280 | positive self-talk, consistent positive self-talk.

00:57:25.080 | Like when you say a negative thing about yourself,

00:57:26.160 | say something positive and be patient with yourself.

00:57:28.920 | Because I made it very hard on myself and very,

00:57:31.100 | and I think if you're an academic,

00:57:32.400 | if you're an entrepreneur, if you're an intelligent person,

00:57:34.040 | I think you have high standards.

00:57:35.980 | And so it's constantly like, kind of for me,

00:57:37.840 | being like the worst, and I'm like the worst coach

00:57:40.360 | of myself for so long.

00:57:42.120 | And I've really worked on how do I just be more positive

00:57:45.520 | about who I am to myself, separate if the book sells well,

00:57:48.520 | separate if I come on a show or not.

00:57:50.340 | And then that's a practice.

00:57:51.640 | And so when I was at Intel,

00:57:54.820 | I think there's categories of our life, right?

00:57:56.680 | So there's your work life, there's your friends,

00:57:59.280 | there's your living, there's your relationships.

00:58:01.440 | And really, I think most people are actually

00:58:03.120 | pretty self-aware of what part of their life

00:58:04.780 | isn't satisfactory.

00:58:06.160 | I don't think there's a secret out there.

00:58:07.680 | I think most people understand it, but it's a little hard.

00:58:10.640 | And so at Intel, I was like, I hate this job.

00:58:13.520 | - Yeah.

00:58:14.360 | - I hate this job.

00:58:16.000 | And that was great motivator.

00:58:17.600 | And then I hated being at Facebook to some of it,

00:58:19.840 | even though it was a great experience.

00:58:21.120 | And over time, I just kept,

00:58:22.820 | then I finally got to start my own business

00:58:25.380 | and I hated my partners, or they probably hated me too.

00:58:27.640 | And I hated making Facebook games.

00:58:29.720 | But each of these things encourage,

00:58:32.080 | you take a little bit of courage,

00:58:33.360 | that builds your confidence,

00:58:34.320 | and that happened through action.

00:58:35.880 | - Yep.

00:58:36.760 | - That happens through action.

00:58:37.600 | Like you can only plan for so long,

00:58:39.600 | but then traffic accidents happen.

00:58:40.880 | You didn't plan for that.

00:58:42.380 | And so you have to adjust.

00:58:43.560 | And so all these steps, Intel, then Facebook, then Mint,

00:58:47.160 | then this gaming company, I hate games.

00:58:49.160 | I only play chess, that's the only game I like.

00:58:51.280 | And then I didn't like these partners.

00:58:52.700 | And then I was like, I also wanted to have a company

00:58:54.880 | that I'd love to do all day for the rest of my life.

00:58:57.720 | That's why I don't care to go IPO or sell this business.

00:59:00.120 | - Yeah.

00:59:00.960 | - And that's what AppSumo started as.

00:59:02.840 | And that was just one aspect.

00:59:04.340 | And I think it took time in each of these categories,

00:59:06.800 | even relationships.

00:59:07.960 | You know, in the book, we talk very deeply

00:59:10.680 | about how the power of asking is so important,

00:59:12.920 | and it's a skill everyone needs to get better at.

00:59:14.980 | Because in relationships, in terms of life intentionality,

00:59:18.600 | having a great partner is the number one life upgrade.

00:59:21.680 | If number one is yourself,

00:59:22.620 | I'd say it's tied for improving yourself

00:59:24.640 | and how you feel about yourself and having a partner,

00:59:26.740 | number one life in the world.

00:59:28.460 | And I would just get what I was getting.

00:59:31.420 | And my business partner is like,

00:59:32.260 | if you got to ask and you can get what you want,

00:59:34.220 | and you have to think about what you want,

00:59:35.060 | and then you have to ask for it.

00:59:37.140 | And I would say that was another really key thing

00:59:39.820 | intentionally where it was like,

00:59:41.400 | well, she doesn't have a job.

00:59:42.980 | I want someone with a job.

00:59:44.860 | She really criticizes me a lot

00:59:46.680 | for doing social media and YouTube.

00:59:48.400 | Okay, that's not really working.

00:59:50.300 | She, you know, each one, you know,

00:59:52.780 | these failures are learning opportunities

00:59:55.140 | where they keep getting better and better and better

00:59:56.420 | until I finally met someone where it's like, oh my God.

00:59:59.960 | And I think I had the misconception though,

01:00:01.760 | you meet someone and then it's over,

01:00:02.860 | you don't have to do anything.

01:00:04.020 | But no, it's like still work every day.

01:00:05.540 | It's still showing up.

01:00:07.940 | And in all these aspects of my life,

01:00:09.740 | I finally got to a part where one,

01:00:12.460 | I think I could have been happier with myself all along.

01:00:14.220 | I think that's an important message.

01:00:16.260 | But then now being at a place

01:00:17.700 | where I'm very content with it,

01:00:18.780 | also just being like, okay, you actually are content.

01:00:21.340 | You don't have to keep chasing.

01:00:22.900 | Just be good with internal.

01:00:24.920 | - All right, let's take another quick break here.

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01:03:34.440 | All right, let's get back to it.

01:03:35.960 | And it's just through recognizing these different areas.

01:03:37.840 | And there's still stuff.

01:03:39.000 | I got super mad at someone this week.

01:03:42.760 | It was just, it was kind of silly.

01:03:44.440 | And I was really frustrated with myself all week about it.

01:03:47.680 | And I was mad that this person I thought cheated me.

01:03:50.000 | And I was talking with my friend and he was like,

01:03:52.880 | "Hmm, you know, what would your daughter think

01:03:55.200 | "about this behavior that you're doing?"

01:03:56.480 | I was like, "Oh, that's a good one."

01:03:58.360 | - That's a good one.

01:03:59.200 | - I was like, "Well, I'd want to show her

01:04:00.020 | "that I could be the better man and let this go

01:04:01.920 | "and then move on to more positive things."

01:04:03.600 | I was like, "Oh, damn, that's good, but I'm still angry."

01:04:06.560 | So I let it go.

01:04:07.680 | And then, yeah, but again, I'm saying that it's still,

01:04:09.920 | there's still problems, there's still different challenges,

01:04:11.660 | but it's just being content across all these different areas

01:04:14.200 | yourself, your work, your relationship,

01:04:16.040 | probably where you're living.

01:04:17.520 | I was living in a shitty house or cheap houses

01:04:19.560 | for, I don't know, 20 years.

01:04:21.400 | I lived on floors.

01:04:23.220 | Like literally, I lived on floors for a year

01:04:24.560 | 'cause it was so cheap.

01:04:25.720 | And then I finally bought like a multimillion dollar house

01:04:29.340 | during COVID 'cause I was like, "I finally, let me try."

01:04:31.920 | I tried it out, I experimented.

01:04:33.400 | I was like, "Yo, this is amazing."

01:04:35.340 | My previous house is 800 square feet, it's cracked.

01:04:38.560 | Floors are literally cracked as well as the walls,

01:04:41.120 | it's got cockroaches, it's pretty bad.

01:04:43.760 | And then during COVID, I tried out nice houses

01:04:45.280 | and I was like, "Oh my God, I can actually,

01:04:47.360 | "I think I can deserve this for myself and I can afford it."

01:04:50.280 | And then as I tested it, I loved it, bought it,

01:04:52.940 | and I'm so blessed.

01:04:54.280 | I love this house.

01:04:55.720 | And that's all the different kind of pieces

01:04:57.480 | and that's your schedule, calendar as well.

01:04:59.740 | I don't think any of these are secret elements,

01:05:02.180 | but it's being mindful across the spectrum

01:05:04.400 | and then making those adjustments

01:05:06.080 | and being patient that it can take some time.

01:05:07.980 | - Well, I like that calendar advice you have because,

01:05:11.160 | so later this last chapter of the book, chapter nine,

01:05:13.820 | where you're talking about integrating this

01:05:15.560 | into a bigger picture of your life,

01:05:17.960 | you're suggesting being pretty systematic

01:05:19.580 | about making sure there's time being invested

01:05:22.980 | to different aspects of your life that's important.

01:05:25.880 | - Yes.

01:05:26.720 | And part of that, I'm assuming, based on this conversation,

01:05:29.280 | is that also makes sure not just that you're spending time

01:05:31.840 | on the different parts of your life that are important,

01:05:33.800 | you're continuing to learn about each of those parts.

01:05:36.160 | So you have a relationship part.

01:05:38.000 | Now you're learning about what you want

01:05:40.000 | or how to succeed in a relationship.

01:05:41.240 | You have a part just for yourself, non-professional.

01:05:43.480 | If you're not regular spending time now,

01:05:45.160 | you don't know what it is that you wanna do

01:05:47.000 | when something else is doing better.

01:05:49.020 | I love that idea of, and you use colors, right?

01:05:52.800 | You said, "Use different colors

01:05:54.120 | "for the events on your calendars."

01:05:55.440 | You can just see, hey, there's no blue

01:05:57.080 | on the calendar this week.

01:05:59.000 | This is out of whack.

01:06:00.760 | But I love thinking about that as a curriculum almost.

01:06:05.000 | It's a self-learning curriculum

01:06:06.680 | as much as it is trying to build a balanced schedule.

01:06:09.360 | - Yeah, so just for the people out there,

01:06:12.960 | if you had, you know, I break it down in the book,

01:06:15.700 | at a high level, it's, you know,

01:06:17.220 | most people have 24 hours in a day.

01:06:19.800 | I don't know, maybe you're a different Cal.

01:06:22.520 | Then why is it that some people seem to get more done

01:06:24.420 | and seem to be more satisfied with what gets done?

01:06:26.860 | And it's because they're working backwards from clarity.

01:06:29.860 | That's the only difference.

01:06:31.160 | It's the only difference.

01:06:32.000 | They're very clear where they're trying to go,

01:06:33.600 | and then they're prioritizing accordingly.

01:06:35.140 | So the way that's worked for me,

01:06:37.260 | I've done this at the same method,

01:06:39.640 | the color coding and stuff is definitely involved

01:06:41.440 | in the past decade.

01:06:42.860 | But have a clear goal where you're gonna end the year.

01:06:45.220 | Have clear weekly outcomes that you wanna do,

01:06:47.920 | and those weekly outcomes,

01:06:48.940 | which should match to your yearly ones,

01:06:50.400 | then break those down on a daily basis.

01:06:53.100 | And I like a lot of,

01:06:54.560 | the best things in my calendar are almost always audio,

01:06:57.380 | or auto, excuse me.

01:06:58.580 | So I mean that they're automatically, they're color coded.

01:07:00.580 | So I can see, hey, I've like, even this week,

01:07:02.720 | I don't have, I hurt myself,

01:07:04.460 | so I'm not doing as much green,

01:07:05.860 | and my green is my workouts.

01:07:07.180 | - Yep.

01:07:08.020 | - Huh, that's interesting, or relationship.

01:07:10.380 | So each week I have a relationship goal,

01:07:11.980 | like things I wanna do with my girlfriend,

01:07:13.440 | then wow, there's relationship activities

01:07:16.140 | that I then scheduled.

01:07:17.340 | So it's intentional about what's gonna happen

01:07:19.720 | versus surprised.

01:07:20.940 | And it doesn't mean that every single second of every day

01:07:23.860 | has to be allocated, but at least in these areas,

01:07:26.180 | you know you're going towards the directions

01:07:27.720 | that you wanna do.

01:07:28.560 | So being on shows, yeah, I'm hanging out with Cal Newport.

01:07:31.420 | And I wanna make sure I have some light green,

01:07:33.640 | which is being and talking about the book,

01:07:35.580 | and being, connecting with people.

01:07:37.660 | And so it's a very quick way

01:07:38.700 | that I can literally just glance right now

01:07:40.300 | and see where am I spending more time,

01:07:41.940 | and where am I spending less.

01:07:44.020 | - I mean, it sounds simple, but people don't do it.

01:07:46.020 | It's, well, I don't know.

01:07:46.840 | I worked a lot, I did a lot of phone time, right?

01:07:50.260 | If you could go back and auto color code people's calendars,

01:07:52.740 | they'd be not very happy by how out of whack that is.

01:07:57.300 | I know we're short on time,

01:07:58.140 | but I just wanted to ask you, just because I have you here,

01:08:01.260 | unrelated to the book, I'm just curious,

01:08:03.340 | Facebook employee 30, what was it like there at that time?

01:08:07.820 | What year was that?

01:08:08.660 | What was it like there?

01:08:09.480 | I'm just curious.

01:08:10.500 | - Man, it was the best.

01:08:12.980 | It was the best.

01:08:13.800 | It was 2005.

01:08:14.820 | - 2005, ooh.

01:08:15.660 | - Right, so just when it got started.

01:08:16.500 | - Early, yeah.

01:08:17.880 | - It's super early.

01:08:19.100 | Even at Million Dollar Weekend, I have the story

01:08:20.300 | about the day I got fired, which was traumatic.

01:08:22.380 | And if you haven't gotten fired,

01:08:23.240 | I recommend it to everyone.

01:08:24.580 | It's a good learning lesson.

01:08:26.580 | And what was beautiful about it though, Cal,

01:08:29.500 | there was a lot of, I feel so lucky

01:08:32.440 | that I got to have so many learnings being at Facebook,

01:08:34.520 | like working directly for Mark

01:08:35.620 | and seeing how big of a vision he had,

01:08:37.980 | that he hired coaches early on,

01:08:39.580 | that his focus is actually a focus.

01:08:41.300 | He's like, we're only trying to grow the site.

01:08:42.700 | I don't care about making money.

01:08:43.780 | And I'd always bring him money-making ideas.

01:08:46.220 | (laughs)

01:08:47.060 | He got really annoyed.

01:08:47.900 | He's like, and he wrote on a whiteboard, billion.

01:08:50.140 | - Yeah.

01:08:51.540 | - And he's like, we're gonna get to a billion people.

01:08:52.660 | That's it.

01:08:53.500 | Don't talk to me if you're not helping me

01:08:54.340 | get to a billion people.

01:08:55.340 | And I was like, oh, that was good.

01:08:57.400 | And he just had a great vision.

01:08:58.940 | Like most people, your vision doesn't have to be,

01:09:02.460 | doesn't have to be anything,

01:09:03.300 | but it has to be exciting for yourself.

01:09:05.220 | And he's like, hey, I'm gonna connect

01:09:06.220 | every single person on this planet.

01:09:08.020 | 24 years old, saying stuff like that?

01:09:11.340 | And let me be clear.

01:09:13.140 | One, he did try two other businesses you've never heard of,

01:09:15.860 | Facemash and Wirehog.

01:09:16.940 | So he's trying.

01:09:18.100 | And by the way, he started a weekend copying someone else.

01:09:20.620 | - Yep.

01:09:21.640 | - So don't innovate, just iterate.

01:09:23.420 | That's what he did.

01:09:25.300 | Look, it's a $2 trillion business, not bad.

01:09:27.380 | - I was gonna say, by the way,

01:09:29.940 | I love this vision of like 2005,

01:09:32.460 | Noah Kagan going up to Mark Zuckerberg

01:09:34.300 | and be like, Mark, if we sold t-shirts,

01:09:37.900 | we could make a million dollars, all right?

01:09:41.560 | So I think this is what we need to focus on.

01:09:43.860 | I just love that idea.

01:09:45.180 | - Do you realize we have 100,000 subscribers on this site?

01:09:48.180 | If we sold t-shirts to just 10% of them.

01:09:50.780 | - Well, I think that was a good teaching moment

01:09:53.940 | from him about focus, but also his strategy at that point,

01:09:58.300 | which I thought was smart, and subsequently,

01:10:01.280 | was that if we get a bigger distribution channel,

01:10:04.740 | then monetization is a lot easier

01:10:06.620 | versus focusing on monetization.

01:10:07.980 | This is all coming back to doubling down.

01:10:09.940 | Like we do monetization,

01:10:11.100 | we're gonna probably be sacrificing the distribution channel.

01:10:14.040 | - Yeah.

01:10:14.880 | - Yeah, okay, that's good.

01:10:16.080 | Being around excellence,

01:10:19.440 | being around people with exceedingly high standards

01:10:22.820 | where everyone had already high standards

01:10:24.160 | and then there's people that have even higher,

01:10:26.580 | and just having that on a regular basis.

01:10:28.820 | And then the level of urgency

01:10:31.180 | and the fact that we're working on something

01:10:33.000 | that was just critical.

01:10:34.580 | And that was special.

01:10:36.340 | I hope everyone gets to experience these hyper growth

01:10:38.280 | kind of, wow, doing something that people really want,

01:10:41.260 | and those are great businesses to be a part of.

01:10:43.620 | And they don't have to be as size of Facebook,

01:10:46.820 | but they can be, like Mint did it, AppSumo did it,

01:10:50.400 | this book seems to be doing it.

01:10:51.720 | You can do it at whatever size you want.

01:10:54.140 | I would say, though, if you can find ways,

01:10:56.160 | either through earbuds, like we're doing with the podcast

01:10:58.960 | and the show, find yourself,

01:11:00.580 | how can you be around other people like this?

01:11:03.000 | People that are saying,

01:11:03.840 | "Hey, I think you could be a little better here."

01:11:05.340 | Or even asking people for that feedback.

01:11:07.020 | Right now, today, there was a lot of great things

01:11:10.720 | that I was fortunate to be able to get there.

01:11:12.920 | Did you also, oh, sorry.

01:11:15.240 | At Mint and Facebook,

01:11:16.080 | did you also learn the negative advice of,

01:11:17.700 | "Oh, hyper growth is not really what I want to do."

01:11:20.180 | Like you also got to see,

01:11:21.960 | this is what hyper growth venture-backed companies are like.

01:11:25.640 | Okay, great, now I know that's not what I want to do.

01:11:28.720 | Like IPO is not what I, which is valuable, right?

01:11:31.160 | Negative insight is also valuable, I assume.

01:11:34.360 | - Yeah, ooh, I like that a lot.

01:11:36.040 | I think people have heard that,

01:11:37.340 | but I don't know if they ever do it.

01:11:38.760 | They're like, "Yeah, try a lot of things

01:11:39.740 | "you don't like to find out what you do."

01:11:42.800 | You know, at Facebook, I've read my old journals,

01:11:46.380 | and I just remember when we got larger,

01:11:49.720 | which sounds ironic, we were only 150 people,

01:11:51.680 | which is almost the size of AppSumo today,

01:11:53.800 | I remember really being frustrated

01:11:55.680 | that we'd have a lot of meetings.

01:11:57.040 | (laughing)

01:11:58.480 | And I was like, "Can we just do work?"

01:12:00.000 | And so I learned that.

01:12:02.720 | I felt very insecure at that time.

01:12:04.040 | I was like, man, these guys are,

01:12:04.980 | there's MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Stanford.

01:12:06.880 | It was like elite of the elite.

01:12:08.720 | And I just, it was a very insecure feeling daily,

01:12:10.980 | which also probably means you're growing.

01:12:13.760 | And yeah, I learned a lot of good things

01:12:16.020 | about how to run a company.

01:12:16.860 | And also, one day there was a guy named Dan

01:12:19.140 | who died on a freak bike accident,

01:12:21.760 | and everyone just went back to work.

01:12:23.720 | And I was like, that's frickin' bullshit.

01:12:26.460 | Like this guy died, and he was special to us,

01:12:28.060 | and he mattered, and he helped,

01:12:28.900 | and we're just going back to work.

01:12:30.800 | There's definitely a lot of negative things

01:12:32.580 | that I didn't admire that I wanted to do better

01:12:35.380 | in my own company, and that was cool.

01:12:36.860 | That's all that you're teaching people, Cal, which is great.

01:12:39.660 | You can create the life you wanna live,

01:12:41.380 | and it's not as hard as you think it is.

01:12:43.340 | - Yeah, and it's also not easy.

01:12:44.940 | It's just take persistent effort.

01:12:48.040 | It's easy, there's no one step that's impossible

01:12:50.740 | that you might not succeed with.

01:12:52.300 | But there's also just no one step

01:12:53.460 | that makes the whole thing happen.

01:12:54.500 | This seems to be the takeaway from this,

01:12:56.380 | is yeah, there's not some impossible obstacle

01:12:58.680 | at some point where you're gonna get stuck,

01:13:00.240 | but there is like 1,000 steps.

01:13:02.340 | So if you're not, like start walking

01:13:04.640 | and have a pretty good map for the trail you're following,

01:13:07.620 | you're not gonna get there.

01:13:08.860 | But you know how to walk, and if you keep walking,

01:13:11.060 | eventually you will get there.

01:13:12.620 | Yeah, so it's no step is hard, but there's a lot.

01:13:15.760 | So you better start racking them up, metaphor time.

01:13:19.860 | - Exactly, man.

01:13:20.700 | I mean, I think you're a great example for writing books.

01:13:22.860 | Like you write a book, and then you write a book,

01:13:24.800 | and then you write a book, and I'm assuming you enjoy it.

01:13:27.940 | And for everyone out there,

01:13:29.500 | what's this first step they can take today?

01:13:32.140 | - Yeah, I mean, I decided when I was 20 years old,

01:13:34.420 | this is what I wanna do, I wanna write books.

01:13:36.120 | And whatever book I could write, I wrote that first.

01:13:39.880 | And then I tried to make the next one better,

01:13:41.140 | and the next one better, and that's all I've done.

01:13:42.520 | 20 years later, this is all I've done.

01:13:44.560 | It's like, I just wanna keep writing books,

01:13:45.880 | just clarity on that.

01:13:47.400 | Keep doing something, you learn about it,

01:13:49.800 | you learn how to direct, and how to avoid the pitfalls,

01:13:52.360 | and it's funny how that unfolds.

01:13:55.480 | Like I was talking to someone, a well-known person,

01:13:57.440 | a lot of subs, a big online personality,

01:13:59.400 | and I was like, oh, that's really cool what you're doing.

01:14:01.000 | And he was like, no, no, my dream is what you're doing.

01:14:03.840 | So you never know, they write books, you know,

01:14:06.720 | like they write books, and people know your ideas,

01:14:09.040 | and you can just sit there, and yeah.

01:14:11.920 | And it was just execute, let me write another.

01:14:13.920 | That was always my thing, write another, sell another,

01:14:17.000 | work it out, sell another, just keep going.

01:14:19.840 | - You know, and I think one of the important lessons

01:14:22.080 | that I looked on lifestyle engineering was,

01:14:25.600 | I was talking with Charlie Hoenn,

01:14:27.120 | he was an editor of this book,

01:14:28.260 | and he's got great stuff out there.

01:14:29.660 | - I know Charlie, yeah.

01:14:31.000 | - Yeah, I love Charlie, he's been a good longtime friend.

01:14:33.520 | One of my guardian angels.

01:14:34.680 | I have a few of these guardian angels in my life.

01:14:37.320 | And I remember talking to him, like, you know,

01:14:39.020 | Jeff Bezos, who I think is so cool,

01:14:41.520 | and he's built this company, he doesn't have a podcast.

01:14:45.000 | And he's like, Noah, you're not Jeff Bezos,

01:14:47.440 | you're Noah Kagan.

01:14:49.000 | And you could do it the Noah Kagan way.

01:14:51.160 | I was like, oh, that's spicy.

01:14:53.680 | And that's for everyone, that's the Cal Newport way,

01:14:56.280 | that's your way, whatever your name is, listening,

01:14:58.940 | and embracing that.

01:15:00.360 | Like you can have a podcast and a YouTube and a family

01:15:02.400 | and all these things, or you can have just one thing,

01:15:03.980 | and that's great too.

01:15:04.820 | And recognizing that that's how it can be

01:15:07.520 | was also very liberating for me,

01:15:09.400 | that I was like, ah, I can have a YouTube and podcast,

01:15:12.320 | and Cal, I'm only writing one book.

01:15:13.960 | I don't know how you did multiple.

01:15:15.920 | I'm one and done, my man.

01:15:17.240 | This is what I'm gonna be talking about

01:15:18.480 | for the next decade.

01:15:20.120 | But that works for me, and I'm very satisfied with that.

01:15:22.920 | - Well, I love it.

01:15:24.860 | Well, Noah, I know I've held you over,

01:15:27.320 | but I just love talking about this.

01:15:29.160 | Thanks for coming on.

01:15:30.800 | Million Dollar Weekend, look, I recommend this book

01:15:33.040 | for all you deep lifers out there.

01:15:34.400 | This is not just about, though it is,

01:15:36.400 | what actually works in making a successful business.

01:15:38.600 | I really do think it is a blueprint

01:15:40.360 | for how do you explore the adjacent possible,

01:15:43.560 | the configurations of what your life could and couldn't be,

01:15:46.640 | and systematically navigate towards something better.

01:15:49.800 | That's the key, systematic.

01:15:51.400 | This is the long game, not the I solve it all

01:15:54.560 | with one big idea that I have tomorrow

01:15:56.960 | or with one big moment of courage.

01:15:58.680 | So no, I'm not surprised your book is doing really well

01:16:00.720 | because I've learned from my listeners, people want this.

01:16:03.840 | So thanks for coming on and talking to us about it.

01:16:06.960 | - Thanks for having me.

01:16:08.760 | - You might also like episode 272,

01:16:12.120 | where I did an interview with the writer David Epstein.

01:16:15.720 | It was a great conversation.

01:16:16.840 | I think you'll enjoy it.

01:16:17.960 | Check it out.

01:16:18.800 | The goal for today's deep dive is to go through

01:16:21.120 | four essential tools that you need to build

01:16:26.040 | your productivity toolkit.

How To Escape Mediocrity, Achieve Success & Get Ahead of 99% Of People | Noah Kagan & Cal Newport

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