How to Parent "Deeply Feeling Kids" | Dr. Becky Kennedy & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.000 | I've sometimes wondered whether or not

00:00:04.780 | parents are either afraid of

00:00:07.060 | or not afraid enough of their kids.

00:00:11.400 | I've known some parents that are afraid of their kids

00:00:15.580 | because, and perhaps as a consequence,

00:00:18.380 | who knows what the chicken egg is there.

00:00:21.260 | All we know is the parent was alive first.

00:00:23.360 | The kids learn to control their parents

00:00:27.180 | through not necessarily emotional outbursts,

00:00:30.340 | but the threat of emotional outbursts.

00:00:33.460 | I've seen this again and again,

00:00:35.180 | and it's a pretty wild thing to observe.

00:00:38.760 | And of course, as an observer,

00:00:41.160 | it's far easier than when you're in it,

00:00:42.960 | but this idea like,

00:00:44.540 | well, like they're like a pot ready to boil over,

00:00:48.440 | you know, like they're gonna pop.

00:00:52.220 | And I've seen this in teachers in the classroom.

00:00:55.060 | I've seen this in so many venues

00:00:58.100 | where whether or not the child understands

00:01:01.940 | that they're somehow controlling the situation or not,

00:01:04.540 | there's just an inherent fear of what could happen.

00:01:08.060 | And then I think kids feel a certain power,

00:01:11.220 | but they don't feel safe, right?

00:01:12.740 | I mean, how could they, right?

00:01:14.140 | They're children.

00:01:15.140 | - Yes.

00:01:16.140 | - So for the parents out there

00:01:18.660 | that are afraid of their kids' potential responses

00:01:21.920 | and/or how bad their kid, quote, unquote,

00:01:24.780 | might turn out if they were to really lay down the law.

00:01:28.220 | Here I'm using kind of old school language.

00:01:30.260 | Listen, I grew up, you know, I'm 48 years old.

00:01:32.180 | So, you know, yeah, I mean,

00:01:35.480 | my parents, you know, didn't physically abuse us,

00:01:37.940 | but there might've been a spanking every once in a while,

00:01:40.140 | or I don't know what the rule is nowadays

00:01:41.900 | or the standard out there.

00:01:44.380 | You know, I think, I won't say which,

00:01:46.180 | but I might've taken a smack here or there, but not many.

00:01:50.260 | And there was also a lot of love.

00:01:53.080 | But clearly, and here I'm not supporting

00:01:57.280 | the use of corporal punishment.

00:01:58.820 | I want to be very clear.

00:02:00.760 | But, you know, kids can be tough.

00:02:03.400 | And then also, you know,

00:02:05.080 | it wasn't long into my high school years

00:02:06.920 | when I was physically larger than both my parents.

00:02:09.320 | I never used that to intimidate them,

00:02:11.040 | but I have to imagine when your kid is larger than you,

00:02:13.000 | if you were already psychologically afraid of them,

00:02:15.760 | now it's clear to both of you

00:02:17.920 | that the tables have turned.

00:02:20.780 | - That's right.

00:02:21.620 | - Right?

00:02:22.440 | I'm talking about the unconscious,

00:02:23.460 | semi-conscious aspects of this.

00:02:25.180 | I'm not talking about who can, you know,

00:02:26.940 | obviously physical fights.

00:02:28.260 | There's not something I ever want to see

00:02:29.580 | or participate in in a household.

00:02:32.040 | - So this is an amazing topic, like walking on eggshells.

00:02:35.120 | This is right?

00:02:36.780 | And this is terrifying to a kid.

00:02:40.400 | Because again, if a kid is trying to figure out,

00:02:42.340 | like, am I real?

00:02:43.420 | And am I safe?

00:02:45.240 | Kids do experience feelings in such an intense way

00:02:49.380 | because they don't have any of those skills

00:02:50.740 | and they're so surprising and they're so visceral

00:02:52.980 | that it is scary to them.

00:02:54.620 | And there are kind of, especially these groups of kids,

00:02:57.120 | I call them deeply feeling kids,

00:02:59.340 | that do feel things more intensely.

00:03:02.040 | And they do have more of these big, massive tantrums.

00:03:04.860 | They even look animalistic often during,

00:03:06.500 | they try to scratch you.

00:03:07.380 | They'll hiss during them.

00:03:08.620 | They'll growl.

00:03:09.460 | - Hiss, really?

00:03:10.300 | - Yes.

00:03:11.180 | - I grew up with some biters.

00:03:13.100 | - Yeah.

00:03:13.940 | - Kids that bite.

00:03:14.760 | Because again, those are just feelings literally uncontained

00:03:17.980 | that are exploding out.

00:03:19.060 | And where do they explode out?

00:03:20.100 | Through your extremities.

00:03:20.940 | So they, that's really what it is.

00:03:23.180 | And so what will happen,

00:03:25.020 | and this is this really unfortunate dance

00:03:26.900 | and one of my favorite things to help people turn around,

00:03:30.340 | is then kids kind of sense from a parent,

00:03:33.620 | like, I really am as toxic as I worried I was.

00:03:37.780 | Right?

00:03:39.780 | And again, if we go back to that pilot thing,

00:03:42.200 | like I think about a pilot,

00:03:43.420 | it's like, we have to make an emergency landing.

00:03:46.640 | We're not gonna be able to go to LA.

00:03:48.680 | And we're all gonna land in Cleveland, whatever it is.

00:03:52.120 | I picture the passenger who's like,

00:03:54.000 | "You are going to take us to LA."

00:03:57.000 | And the pilot's like, "Okay, okay."

00:03:59.160 | Like, can you imagine?

00:04:00.520 | You're like, it doesn't matter that this person is pissed.

00:04:03.560 | Like, you're the pilot.

00:04:05.840 | You don't have to keep us happy.

00:04:08.480 | Please keep us safe.

00:04:10.040 | And if you're on that plane and you're terrified

00:04:11.920 | 'cause you're like, we have to make an emergency landing,

00:04:13.600 | I promise you, you're way more terrified

00:04:15.960 | when you hear this person change the decision

00:04:18.940 | because of the threat that a passenger

00:04:22.320 | is going to be very, very upset.

00:04:25.040 | And that is actually what we do

00:04:27.000 | when we're walking around on eggshells.

00:04:28.660 | Now, the alternative to this, again,

00:04:30.460 | we live in this world in parenting where there's a binary,

00:04:33.360 | where we say, and you said it yourself,

00:04:34.400 | so I'm gonna lay down the law.

00:04:35.440 | Like, I don't recommend that either.

00:04:36.960 | Like, especially with a kid like that,

00:04:38.720 | that's not gonna be the best solution.

00:04:40.560 | These kids have to be seen as good kids.

00:04:43.320 | They are good kids.

00:04:44.440 | And when I meet with parents of these kids,

00:04:46.720 | I hear about them.

00:04:49.160 | And like, I always say, I hear about them.

00:04:50.880 | And I have a kid like this, so I get it.

00:04:52.240 | And I'm just like, I really like your kid.

00:04:54.080 | And they're like, what?

00:04:55.160 | I was like, I do.

00:04:56.160 | And they're like, and then they usually start crying.

00:04:59.600 | And they go, you're literally the first person in 11 years

00:05:03.120 | who's ever said that, including like the parents.

00:05:09.320 | Like, you like our kid, why?

00:05:11.120 | I'm like, they're tenacious.

00:05:13.080 | They know what they want.

00:05:15.400 | They seem like they have 0% people pleasing in them.

00:05:18.600 | These kids will change the world,

00:05:21.440 | but not if they're boundary lists,

00:05:22.880 | then they'll become tyrants.

00:05:24.380 | And that's really terrifying.

00:05:26.300 | And I'm gonna teach you how to be the sturdy leader,

00:05:29.400 | which is equally firm as it is warm.

00:05:32.360 | And that's gonna start today.

00:05:35.600 | And so like, here's an example of these deeply feeling kids.

00:05:38.440 | I think you said something about like watching

00:05:39.680 | like a TV show where these kids,

00:05:42.080 | it feels like they hold the family emotionally hostage.

00:05:45.440 | And because if you don't pick the movie

00:05:47.920 | that they wanna watch on family movie night,

00:05:50.100 | they will scream, they will cry,

00:05:51.360 | and they will do that for three hours.

00:05:54.660 | They will.

00:05:55.500 | Other kids after you're like,

00:05:56.720 | they don't peter out, these kids.

00:05:58.640 | These kids, interestingly enough,

00:06:00.040 | get in an awful cycle with their parents

00:06:01.960 | because they have such intense emotions more often,

00:06:05.440 | which more escalations,

00:06:06.720 | which tend to get met with invalidation.

00:06:08.640 | You're so dramatic.

00:06:10.120 | You ruin everything.

00:06:11.880 | They are that much more desperate to be believed.

00:06:14.500 | They escalate further.

00:06:16.000 | You can understand how that will lead

00:06:17.120 | to more distance and invalidation.

00:06:20.080 | And we're off to the races in a bad direction.

00:06:22.440 | And I would say to the parents,

00:06:23.840 | during family movie night tomorrow night,

00:06:25.280 | this is what you're gonna do.

00:06:26.840 | And you're gonna, by the way,

00:06:27.880 | I would say, this is how concrete I get.

00:06:29.800 | You're gonna write this down

00:06:30.640 | and you're gonna say it to a voice recorder

00:06:32.200 | with your own voice.

00:06:33.020 | And I want you to play it back

00:06:34.000 | and see how sturdy you sound.

00:06:35.640 | And they'll often do it.

00:06:36.480 | They'll be like, wow, I didn't even believe myself

00:06:38.040 | when I said that.

00:06:38.880 | I'm so scared of my child.

00:06:40.120 | You're gonna do it again.

00:06:40.960 | And then you're gonna do it again.

00:06:41.840 | And this is just like any other skill we practice.

00:06:44.120 | And you're gonna say to your kid,

00:06:45.480 | look, I know in this family,

00:06:47.680 | Bobby, usually we let him pick the movie.

00:06:49.240 | He gets really upset.

00:06:50.120 | If not, well, tonight's gonna be different.

00:06:52.140 | Bobby, it is your sister's turn to pick the movie.

00:06:56.440 | And I know you're gonna be upset.

00:06:57.560 | And I just wanna tell you exactly what's gonna happen.

00:06:59.400 | And I'm gonna, in this example,

00:07:00.960 | I'm saying there's a two-family household,

00:07:02.320 | which is an assumption.

00:07:03.160 | But even if there's one,

00:07:05.080 | I'm gonna say, if you're super upset and screaming,

00:07:06.840 | I'm going to bring you to your room.

00:07:09.200 | And this is important.

00:07:10.480 | I'm gonna sit with you and I'm gonna stay there.

00:07:13.920 | And this is a line that I know

00:07:15.920 | from our Deeply Feeling Kid workshop has really,

00:07:18.280 | and you have to believe it to say it.

00:07:20.520 | I am not scared of your feelings.

00:07:25.040 | And I know parents will say to me,

00:07:26.860 | but Dr. Becky, I am scared of their feelings.

00:07:30.320 | I'm like, yeah, you're gonna fake it till you make it.

00:07:32.280 | They need to hear that.

00:07:33.960 | Because if you think about the image of these kids,

00:07:36.600 | their feelings feel so overpowering to them.

00:07:39.140 | They feel more,

00:07:40.100 | but they're actually more porous to the world.

00:07:42.040 | So they both have more coming in

00:07:44.760 | and they're actually always terrified

00:07:46.200 | of how much of them can flow out.

00:07:47.880 | And so they feel their feelings that way.

00:07:49.640 | It's almost like my tantrum in the house

00:07:51.240 | takes up the entire living room.

00:07:52.800 | That's why you actually have to bring them to a smaller room.

00:07:55.160 | And you actually have to contain them in that way

00:07:58.760 | as a way of kind of saying, like, it only goes this far.

00:08:03.440 | Like literally, I will not let you dictate family movie

00:08:07.520 | and always sitting in the front seat

00:08:09.280 | and your favorite chair at dinner.

00:08:11.460 | It only goes this far.

00:08:12.800 | And that is truly an act of love and protection

00:08:16.280 | and safety for those kids.

00:08:18.540 | - How often do you observe that these deeply feeling kids,

00:08:23.400 | is that how they're referred to?

00:08:24.320 | - Yeah, I mean, I made up the term, so, but yeah.

00:08:26.520 | - Great. - Deeply feeling kids, yes.

00:08:28.200 | - You are qualified to, qualified to.

00:08:31.080 | So deeply feeling kids also express these deep feelings

00:08:36.080 | in the positive sense.

00:08:39.280 | I mean, 'cause I can think of some kids I grew up with

00:08:41.480 | and I can look at my own experience of like,

00:08:45.480 | it's hard to know.

00:08:46.320 | We don't have a calibration point.

00:08:47.440 | It's not like body temperature of like how much I feel

00:08:50.320 | versus how much you feel.

00:08:51.240 | We look at the external expression of these things.

00:08:53.080 | Like did the lacrimal glands secrete some tears or not?

00:08:56.480 | Like, you know, as you were talking about this thing

00:08:58.760 | before I'd noticed, I like welled up a little bit

00:09:01.640 | and I'm thinking, yeah, like I can remember seeing things

00:09:03.920 | and feeling things and like, whoa, it's a really big inside.

00:09:07.220 | I don't remember screaming at my parents,

00:09:09.080 | telling them I hate them.

00:09:10.640 | I probably did at some point.

00:09:12.220 | But I have observed other kids, peers that grew up

00:09:19.720 | that clearly fell into this category

00:09:22.000 | and have gone on to do remarkable things.

00:09:26.000 | Remarkable, like extraordinary things.

00:09:28.480 | Because it's a capacity

00:09:30.560 | that doesn't always skew towards a negative expression.

00:09:34.040 | It can also like immense expressions of love.

00:09:37.120 | And, you know, I think these days that there's a tendency

00:09:39.800 | to for unqualified or like truly unqualified people

00:09:44.800 | because they're not trained to do so,

00:09:46.240 | to slap labels like borderline, right?

00:09:48.400 | Splitting, like good object, bad object, splitting.

00:09:50.720 | And indeed that exists as a diagnosis

00:09:54.200 | and symptoms of borderline.

00:09:56.100 | But that we punish rather than believe and observe

00:10:00.760 | that these things exist.

00:10:01.880 | There's range in nervous system tuning and affect.

00:10:04.520 | And so put simply, do deeply feeling kids

00:10:09.200 | also tend to express love and joy and positive emotions

00:10:14.200 | with the same intensity or near same intensity?

00:10:17.000 | - I would say it depends on like,

00:10:18.600 | it depends on kind of their stage of development

00:10:23.560 | and the nature of the interactions

00:10:25.680 | they've kind of received back.

00:10:27.240 | I think deeply feeling kids, I always say are super sensors.

00:10:30.760 | Like if you've won these kids and I've won these kids,

00:10:33.160 | we live in New York City.

00:10:34.000 | She will not go into a New York City garage, okay?

00:10:36.440 | Like where we park our car.

00:10:37.560 | And she's like, "The smell."

00:10:38.680 | And the rest of us are like, "What are you talking about?"

00:10:41.080 | Meanwhile, I have another friend

00:10:42.820 | who lives in totally different area of Manhattan

00:10:44.800 | and she's a deeply feeling kid.

00:10:45.760 | She's like, "My daughter, the same thing."

00:10:48.640 | Like, I actually believe that my daughter smells something

00:10:51.180 | that I don't smell.

00:10:52.860 | Like they are super sensors in that way, right?

00:10:55.040 | And she notices the little detail of something.

00:10:58.440 | Now, in terms of the intense love, I think for these kids,

00:11:02.160 | their vulnerability sits so close to their shame.

00:11:06.000 | This is why they get so explosive.

00:11:07.640 | They almost experience their feelings as attackers,

00:11:09.800 | which is again, why parents can get scared of them.

00:11:12.560 | And they do, because again,

00:11:14.140 | they feel that feeling so intensely

00:11:15.840 | that they have this deep fear of abandonment,

00:11:18.480 | of being too much.

00:11:19.760 | And so that shame tries to shut it down,

00:11:22.360 | although it obviously doesn't work and it explodes.

00:11:24.800 | What I've noticed with deeply feeling kids,

00:11:26.840 | and this to me is actually like

00:11:27.960 | truly my proudest body of work.

00:11:29.720 | And you mentioned borderline, so we'll go there.

00:11:31.520 | People have said like, these sound almost like kids

00:11:34.640 | who are like have some predilection to borderline.

00:11:39.240 | And obviously having gone to a PhD program,

00:11:41.580 | we're told a lot about invalidating environments

00:11:43.860 | and things like that.

00:11:44.700 | I'm not really one for labels either,

00:11:47.060 | but I just got so much insight from my,

00:11:48.560 | honestly, my own kid where I was like,

00:11:50.440 | "Wow, like she is so different in how she processes things

00:11:54.000 | and what she needs and how she responds

00:11:55.680 | to my very same interactions as my other kids."

00:11:58.080 | Like, they're very different.

00:11:59.920 | And that fear of abandonment and being too much,

00:12:02.440 | it was like, it was like there from the start.

00:12:04.520 | It really feels like it was like there.

00:12:06.960 | What's so interesting is I feel like through working

00:12:09.920 | with her, by the way, in a very different way,

00:12:11.320 | 'cause these kids reject almost every typical

00:12:13.720 | parenting strategy.

00:12:14.920 | You go to validate these kids' feelings,

00:12:17.400 | it's like you're trying to intrude on them

00:12:19.200 | and steal their heart.

00:12:20.040 | Because if you think about their porousness,

00:12:22.280 | they're so terrified of being taken over

00:12:24.080 | that when you're like seeing a feeling,

00:12:25.640 | they feel like you're like seeing into them.

00:12:27.280 | And so they reject you.

00:12:28.920 | I always say, you can't go in the front door

00:12:30.260 | with these kids.

00:12:31.100 | You've got to like find these side door approaches.

00:12:33.800 | But now of all my kids, she is by far the cuddliest,

00:12:38.800 | the most loving, the most emphatic about our relationship.

00:12:43.800 | Oh, this trip now, I'm gonna miss you so much.

00:12:45.600 | Like the idea when she was four that any of that,

00:12:49.000 | I would say to someone like, "You are crazy.

00:12:51.640 | You are talking about a different kid."

00:12:53.240 | So I think that, yes, that deep love is there.

00:12:58.040 | And we just have to kind of make it a little safer

00:13:01.000 | for those kids to access it.

00:13:02.800 | - Thank you for tuning into the Huberman Lab Clips channel.

00:13:05.480 | If you enjoyed the clip that you just viewed,

00:13:07.600 | please check out the full length episode by clicking here.

00:13:10.640 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How to Parent "Deeply Feeling Kids" | Dr. Becky Kennedy & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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