Botez Sisters: Chess, Streaming, and Fame

00:00:00.000 | I mean, I've definitely experienced moments

00:00:01.640 | where I didn't want to do anything but chess.

00:00:05.440 | - I'd also say that's pretty universal.

00:00:07.040 | I think if you wanna be the best at anything you do

00:00:09.400 | or any sport, you have to be that level of obsessed.

00:00:12.000 | - The following is a conversation

00:00:15.160 | with Alexandra and Andrea Botez.

00:00:17.480 | They're sisters, professional chess players,

00:00:20.120 | commentators, educators, entertainers, and streamers.

00:00:23.920 | Their channel is called Botez Live on Twitch and YouTube.

00:00:28.120 | I highly recommend you check it out.

00:00:29.960 | A small side note about the currently ongoing controversy

00:00:33.640 | in the chess world, where the 19-year-old grandmaster,

00:00:36.560 | Hans Nieman, beat Magnus Carlsen at the Sinkfield Cup.

00:00:40.960 | After this, Magnus, for the first time ever,

00:00:43.960 | withdrew from the tournament,

00:00:45.480 | implying with a tweet that there may have been cheating

00:00:48.360 | or at least something shady going on.

00:00:50.840 | Folks like the grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura

00:00:53.560 | fanned the flames of cheating accusations

00:00:56.120 | and the internet made a bunch of proposals

00:00:59.320 | on how the cheating could have been done.

00:01:01.400 | And it ranged from the ridiculous to the hilarious,

00:01:05.040 | often both.

00:01:06.000 | Hans himself came out and said that he has cheated before

00:01:10.520 | when he was 12 and 16 on random online games

00:01:14.480 | to jack up his rating.

00:01:16.400 | But he said that he has never cheated

00:01:19.280 | in person over the board.

00:01:21.240 | Danny Wrench from chess.com, who I've spoken with,

00:01:24.240 | may make a statement in response to Hans's claims soon.

00:01:27.660 | Folks like Grandmaster Jakob Luge

00:01:30.800 | spoke to his experience training Hans Nieman

00:01:33.000 | and has said that his memory and intuition

00:01:36.240 | were quite brilliant.

00:01:38.040 | So as you see, there's a lot of perspectives on this.

00:01:40.480 | Chess Base has a good summary of the saga

00:01:42.680 | that I'll link in the description.

00:01:45.140 | Also note that this is so quickly moving

00:01:48.020 | that new stuff might come out between me recording this

00:01:50.620 | and publishing the episode.

00:01:52.320 | But I thought I'd mention this anyway

00:01:53.720 | since the episode with the Botas sisters

00:01:56.400 | is a conversation about chess

00:01:58.440 | and was recorded shortly before the controversy.

00:02:01.240 | So we didn't talk about it.

00:02:02.720 | I'm considering having Hans on this podcast

00:02:06.960 | and also Magnus back on the podcast,

00:02:09.360 | and maybe others like Hikaru

00:02:11.520 | or folks from chess.com's anti-cheat staff

00:02:14.920 | to discuss their really interesting

00:02:16.500 | cheating detection algorithms.

00:02:18.700 | But I may also just stay out of it.

00:02:21.840 | I find chess to be a beautiful game

00:02:24.120 | and the chess community

00:02:25.460 | full of fascinating, brilliant people.

00:02:28.080 | And so I'll keep having conversations

00:02:29.880 | like these about chess.

00:02:31.520 | It's fun.

00:02:32.820 | My goal with this podcast and in general as a human being

00:02:36.920 | is to increase the amount of love in the world.

00:02:40.000 | Sometimes that involves celebrating brilliance and beauty

00:02:43.040 | in science, in art, in chess.

00:02:46.300 | Sometimes it involves empathetic conversations

00:02:48.640 | with controversial figures that seek to understand,

00:02:52.120 | not deride.

00:02:53.880 | Sometimes it involves standing against the internet lynch mob

00:02:57.880 | as the chess base article calls it,

00:03:00.120 | to hear the story of a human being who is under attack,

00:03:03.920 | even if it means I get attacked in the process as well.

00:03:08.000 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:03:09.920 | To support it,

00:03:10.840 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

00:03:13.560 | And now, dear friends,

00:03:14.760 | here's Alexandra and Andrea Botas.

00:03:18.980 | You just got back from Italy.

00:03:20.900 | What's the most memorable thing?

00:03:22.620 | I was just there recently as well.

00:03:24.060 | - It was very chaotic because we went out on a whim

00:03:27.940 | and we only had our first hotel book.

00:03:30.900 | And then we rented a car and drove around all of the cities

00:03:33.900 | and went to like five different cities

00:03:35.540 | in about a week and a bit.

00:03:37.660 | So I think it was just the variety

00:03:39.300 | of seeing so many different places

00:03:40.780 | when we're used to being at home all the time.

00:03:42.660 | And Andrea, is yours your luggage?

00:03:45.340 | - Yeah, I would say it was the most stressful vacation

00:03:48.060 | we've been in in our life.

00:03:49.580 | And it was a valuable learning lesson

00:03:51.620 | because now I know how to be prepared for trips.

00:03:54.780 | But we lost our bags and I never got them back.

00:03:57.620 | And like Alex said,

00:03:58.700 | we didn't know where we'd be sleeping every night

00:04:00.620 | and we're just driving through a new city

00:04:02.980 | with a giant van in the most narrowest streets

00:04:05.660 | and getting in many, many fights with Italian men.

00:04:09.420 | So it wasn't really a vacation.

00:04:10.900 | - I saw this motion so many times.

00:04:14.220 | Wasn't it liberating to lose your baggage?

00:04:16.540 | Is it like silver lining?

00:04:17.700 | - It was liberating.

00:04:18.980 | My entire life, I've always had the issue of overpacking.

00:04:21.780 | - And I told her before the trip,

00:04:23.300 | "Andrea, you're gonna pack light, right?"

00:04:25.100 | "Yeah, Alex, yeah."

00:04:25.940 | And then I see her stuffing her overweight suitcase.

00:04:28.140 | - But you did the same.

00:04:29.300 | We both had giant, big extra baggage that we didn't need.

00:04:33.420 | And I'm actually very glad we lost it

00:04:35.500 | because for Venice, hauling that around on all the boats

00:04:38.500 | and through the tiny streets and there's no Ubers.

00:04:41.100 | And now it's the first time where I can travel

00:04:43.460 | without checking in a bag, which I've never done before.

00:04:46.460 | So now I've learned what it means to pack light

00:04:48.020 | 'cause I saw that I could survive off of just my,

00:04:50.900 | this sounds very dramatic,

00:04:51.980 | but it was really a big learning lesson for me.

00:04:54.380 | - The driving must've been crazy

00:04:55.740 | 'cause driving in Italy is rough.

00:04:57.900 | - The driving was crazy.

00:04:59.580 | I did most of it and it would be really interesting

00:05:03.820 | driving through places like Florence

00:05:06.220 | or even through the beach areas that were super windy

00:05:10.140 | because they're two-way streets

00:05:11.540 | that should really only be one way.

00:05:13.300 | So you'd be driving this huge van

00:05:15.180 | and then another car comes on a cliff

00:05:17.460 | and you're just waiting for it to slowly pass.

00:05:19.500 | So it took all of my focus and concentration

00:05:23.020 | to drive well in Italy,

00:05:24.420 | but it was actually really relaxing

00:05:26.020 | because the hardest thing about making a lot of videos

00:05:30.060 | online is you're always thinking about it,

00:05:32.180 | what's coming next.

00:05:33.460 | And when we were in Italy, it was so chaotic

00:05:36.060 | that I did not think about work for a good week and a bit.

00:05:39.300 | - Oh, 'cause you're just-

00:05:40.460 | - We were stressed.

00:05:41.300 | - I was just trying to keep us alive.

00:05:42.780 | - It just seemed higher priority.

00:05:44.580 | - And that was kind of fun.

00:05:45.660 | - It was kind of fun.

00:05:46.860 | - No planning, nothing.

00:05:48.260 | - I wouldn't recommend it or ever do that again, but.

00:05:51.460 | - It sounds pretty awesome.

00:05:54.420 | - And we even randomly ran into two friends of ours

00:05:57.100 | who were in the same city

00:05:58.260 | and we just traveled with them for about half of the trip.

00:06:01.100 | - Yeah, so you just took on the chaos.

00:06:03.260 | - Exactly, it was an adventure.

00:06:04.900 | - Okay, and I see like,

00:06:05.780 | 'cause you were using your hands a lot,

00:06:06.980 | you picked up some of the Italian hand gestures.

00:06:10.780 | - I did, we did get yelled at by a lot of Italians.

00:06:14.100 | The old Italian grandmas would come to us after breakfast

00:06:17.380 | 'cause we'd leave something on the plate

00:06:18.900 | and she'd be like,

00:06:19.740 | "You could feed an entire village with that.

00:06:21.740 | Tell your friends."

00:06:22.660 | And we'd feel so ashamed.

00:06:24.300 | - Yeah, we got cursed out a lot,

00:06:25.820 | but it really reminded me of where we grew up.

00:06:28.580 | - That's true.

00:06:29.500 | - Yeah, bring back those memorisms.

00:06:30.340 | - Where'd you grow up?

00:06:32.340 | - We're Romanian,

00:06:33.700 | but it was like an immigrant neighborhood.

00:06:35.380 | - In Canada.

00:06:36.380 | - So, you know, same, if you don't finish your plate,

00:06:39.300 | that's disrespectful to the people who made the food.

00:06:42.020 | - How was the food in Italy?

00:06:43.620 | I feel like the carbs thing is too intense.

00:06:46.060 | - Yeah, I think very overrated in my opinion.

00:06:48.300 | - So I'm actually not supposed to eat gluten

00:06:51.100 | 'cause I have an allergy,

00:06:52.700 | but I was in Italy and it's gluten galore.

00:06:56.300 | So I was actually eating a lot of it

00:06:57.820 | and it was very interesting

00:06:58.860 | 'cause I didn't get sick while I was in Italy,

00:07:00.860 | but I do while I'm in the US.

00:07:03.060 | So somehow the food was actually maybe more okay

00:07:08.100 | for me to digest, which I appreciated,

00:07:09.740 | but I didn't like it as much as I thought.

00:07:11.660 | Did you like the food there?

00:07:12.780 | - Yeah, no, I did, I did.

00:07:16.940 | I love carbs, but it feels like Vegas.

00:07:21.580 | When I go there for the food,

00:07:23.940 | it's like if I stay here too long,

00:07:26.820 | I'm gonna do things I regret.

00:07:28.380 | That's what it feels like with the food.

00:07:30.180 | 'Cause I don't know how to moderate

00:07:31.140 | and everybody is pushing very large portions

00:07:33.900 | and while kind of eating things on you.

00:07:37.020 | Pasta, pizza, and bread, so delicious.

00:07:41.700 | So yeah, I love it, but I regret everything.

00:07:45.540 | So it's like, I don't wanna go to a place

00:07:47.860 | where I'm going to regret everything I do

00:07:51.540 | for too long of a time.

00:07:54.460 | - Yeah, surprisingly the people there though

00:07:56.260 | are still very fit and everyone stays in good shape,

00:07:59.100 | but that's probably 'cause you're walking around all day

00:08:00.940 | and you're much more active than in the US.

00:08:02.380 | - And they also just know how to moderate food.

00:08:04.540 | I think I've gotten used to the US way of eating.

00:08:07.300 | - The US portions. - What is that?

00:08:09.060 | - Just a lot, always a lot and more.

00:08:14.060 | - And I feel in the US, food advertisements

00:08:17.580 | are also much more in your face

00:08:19.340 | and you're more often reminded of junk food

00:08:21.540 | than we were in Italy.

00:08:22.900 | So even though we were eating less healthy things,

00:08:25.540 | I think we were getting cravings

00:08:27.340 | and being pushed towards junk food less often.

00:08:29.660 | - All right, I gotta ask you a hard question.

00:08:33.180 | So the romance languages,

00:08:34.940 | so I think French is up there as like number one.

00:08:38.700 | - Number one in terms of?

00:08:40.420 | - I don't know.

00:08:41.260 | - Who's ranking them?

00:08:42.620 | (both laughing)

00:08:43.900 | - Oh, you guys speak Italian or no?

00:08:45.380 | - Not Italian, but we studied French and Spanish in school.

00:08:48.660 | - We speak Romanian, which is--

00:08:49.500 | - And Romanian.

00:08:50.340 | - I feel like every country calls their language

00:08:52.380 | a romance language.

00:08:53.220 | - No, but it's Romanian, French, Spanish, Portuguese.

00:08:57.620 | And I think there was one more that was like this dialect,

00:09:01.020 | but those are considered the romance languages.

00:09:03.460 | - Okay, so where would you put Italian?

00:09:05.500 | - I think we got yelled at so much in Italian

00:09:08.340 | that it's not gonna be a lover.

00:09:10.220 | - Okay, so it wasn't working.

00:09:11.660 | - It's on the bottom of the list

00:09:13.020 | 'cause people did not use it nicely to us.

00:09:15.060 | - But I always really liked how French sounds.

00:09:18.260 | I think something about it where maybe Spanish

00:09:23.060 | actually sounds nicer to the ears,

00:09:24.980 | but French has more character and it feels more sultry.

00:09:28.020 | So I like French.

00:09:29.060 | What about you?

00:09:29.900 | - I think it's nicer too.

00:09:31.140 | - Sultry, okay.

00:09:32.460 | - Yeah.

00:09:34.020 | - I feel like French, in France,

00:09:37.020 | I feel like I'm always being judged.

00:09:39.300 | Like they're better than me.

00:09:40.700 | That's what French--

00:09:41.540 | - They are better than us.

00:09:42.380 | - That's so true.

00:09:43.380 | (laughing)

00:09:44.220 | That's just so true.

00:09:45.740 | Which is why, yeah, I long to belong to that.

00:09:50.380 | I like the British accent.

00:09:51.900 | - The British accent? - Really?

00:09:53.100 | - Yeah.

00:09:53.940 | - Actually, one thing we did on our Italian trip

00:09:55.900 | is we just picked up British accents

00:09:58.380 | for the entire trip for fun.

00:10:00.540 | And we forgot we were doing them to the point

00:10:02.540 | where we talked to British people

00:10:03.860 | and they'd ask us, "Why are you talking like that?"

00:10:05.980 | We just couldn't stop.

00:10:07.740 | - I did feel much more elegant and mature.

00:10:10.540 | - That's true.

00:10:11.380 | - People, I don't know if they felt the same way about us,

00:10:14.140 | but it was more of the confidence.

00:10:16.620 | - You do feel like you're more poised, for sure.

00:10:19.460 | - Yeah.

00:10:20.300 | - So how'd you guys get into chess?

00:10:22.340 | When did you first, let's say,

00:10:24.580 | when did you first fall in love with chess?

00:10:28.340 | - So we both started playing when we were pretty young,

00:10:31.060 | around six years old.

00:10:32.180 | That's when our dad taught us.

00:10:33.860 | And I enjoyed playing chess

00:10:36.260 | because I had good results early on,

00:10:38.780 | but a lot of it was being pushed from my dad to play chess.

00:10:42.060 | And I only really started loving it

00:10:44.380 | when we moved from Canada and we started moving a lot.

00:10:47.340 | And chess was the one stable thing that I had.

00:10:50.540 | And it was also where all of my friends were.

00:10:53.860 | So it was kind of that foundational thing for me.

00:10:57.540 | And that's when I started studying chess very intensely.

00:10:59.660 | And when I started putting in the hours out of my own will,

00:11:02.220 | and not because I was being pushed by my dad,

00:11:04.060 | that's when I started really loving it.

00:11:05.700 | And I even wanted to take time off college

00:11:07.620 | to just focus on chess.

00:11:09.420 | - So training and competing?

00:11:11.460 | - Training and competing, yeah.

00:11:12.940 | It was when I was doing it for myself

00:11:15.140 | that I started getting my best results.

00:11:17.460 | - And actually enjoying the thing.

00:11:19.540 | - And really enjoying it, yeah.

00:11:21.180 | I would spend summer vacation studying for tournaments,

00:11:23.940 | and my mom would come and say,

00:11:25.500 | "You need to make friends, go leave the house."

00:11:27.780 | And I'd be like, "No, I need to play chess."

00:11:29.900 | And I remember those moments.

00:11:31.820 | - That you rebelled by playing chess.

00:11:34.380 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:11:35.380 | - How did you get into it?

00:11:36.620 | - Yeah, my experience with loving in high school

00:11:39.700 | is very opposite from Alex's.

00:11:41.500 | But right, my sister was playing

00:11:43.180 | and my dad taught me when I was also six.

00:11:44.020 | - Andrea was cool in high school, unlike me.

00:11:46.420 | - You were.

00:11:47.260 | - I wouldn't say cool, I'd say more balanced

00:11:49.900 | and I was interested in other hobbies.

00:11:51.860 | In my childhood, if I ever really did love chess,

00:11:54.780 | there's certainly moments about traveling

00:11:56.940 | and being together with my family

00:11:58.380 | and spending those moments together,

00:11:59.700 | but those are more the social and the experiences.

00:12:02.780 | But funny enough, I think my happiest moment

00:12:05.500 | where I really played the game for my own enjoyment

00:12:08.060 | was probably my most recent tournament,

00:12:11.540 | because this was after, obviously, we've been streaming

00:12:15.060 | and I'm no longer in high school,

00:12:16.100 | but when I was in school, I was always playing for college

00:12:20.100 | and for the results, trying to build a resume.

00:12:22.260 | So I was too stressed out about the pressure

00:12:24.060 | to really enjoy the game.

00:12:25.420 | Whereas when I just played my first tournament,

00:12:27.420 | so it was after a two-year break because of the pandemic

00:12:31.740 | and it was also all live on Twitch,

00:12:33.500 | so there was some pressure, but it was the first time

00:12:36.980 | that I was really eager to study for the game,

00:12:39.900 | sitting and focusing since we've been streaming

00:12:42.140 | and not getting distracted by something else in years,

00:12:45.380 | like I said.

00:12:46.220 | And the tournament experience, I hit my highest rating

00:12:48.540 | and it was my best tournament ever.

00:12:50.340 | And I think most of that is

00:12:51.420 | 'cause it came from my own enjoyment.

00:12:54.020 | - So you didn't enjoy the domination,

00:12:56.500 | 'cause I think you did really well, right?

00:12:58.700 | This was a couple months ago?

00:13:00.180 | - Oh yeah, yeah, the tournament.

00:13:01.380 | Well, of course, I think the results came

00:13:03.460 | from enjoying the tournament,

00:13:04.940 | 'cause I would be in high school studying

00:13:07.380 | double, triple the amount of time, six hours every day

00:13:09.820 | compared to this tournament, I didn't even prepare for it.

00:13:12.060 | And for three years, I wouldn't be able to pass one rating,

00:13:15.100 | whereas in this one tournament,

00:13:16.220 | I passed it by 70 points without even any preparation.

00:13:19.700 | So it was, I think, as soon as you stop worrying

00:13:22.460 | about the competitions, when the games get much better.

00:13:24.900 | - What does it mean to pass a rating?

00:13:26.540 | - So I was stuck at 1,900.

00:13:28.340 | - 1,900 is 100 points off of expert.

00:13:31.140 | - Yeah.

00:13:31.980 | - Usually when you reach 2,000, you're considered an expert,

00:13:34.780 | which is the rating Andrea was going for.

00:13:36.740 | - Okay, expert, that's a technical term,

00:13:39.260 | or that's like a talking trash term?

00:13:40.860 | - It's more of a colloquial term,

00:13:42.500 | where if somebody's around a 2,000

00:13:44.300 | and you're playing them in a tournament,

00:13:45.580 | they won't have the actual title next to their name,

00:13:47.700 | but you say, "I'm playing an expert."

00:13:49.500 | - What about the more official things like master?

00:13:52.780 | Does that have to do with the rating or something else?

00:13:53.900 | - Yeah, so national master in the US is when you're 2,200.

00:13:57.900 | - Okay, and what's international master?

00:13:59.820 | - International master is based off of a different system,

00:14:02.660 | the FIDE system, which is international.

00:14:04.980 | To be an international master, it's 2,400,

00:14:09.460 | and you have to have three international master norms.

00:14:12.540 | - Yeah, I think Magnus said he's a 2,800-something.

00:14:16.540 | - That was, yeah.

00:14:17.380 | - And then he said, "That's pretty decent."

00:14:19.660 | - Well, he always talks about it like that.

00:14:21.500 | - But see, the thing is, I think what he meant

00:14:23.500 | is that's a decent rating

00:14:25.780 | because it accurately captures his actual level.

00:14:29.140 | So it's not overinflated or underinflated and so on.

00:14:33.020 | And so the discussion there was,

00:14:34.860 | how do you get to, can a human being get to 2,900?

00:14:38.460 | And then he says, "Because my current rating

00:14:40.340 | "is pretty decent, representing my skill level,

00:14:43.540 | "it's gonna be a long road to actually get there."

00:14:46.340 | - 'Cause it's like, so you have to beat people

00:14:48.460 | your same level, that's how the number increases.

00:14:50.540 | - Exactly, yeah.

00:14:52.300 | - And you beat a bunch of people in the tournament, right?

00:14:54.540 | That are higher than your level.

00:14:55.380 | - I did, I got very lucky.

00:14:56.620 | Oh, I was playing, I was really nervous

00:14:58.140 | 'cause my category was like 200 points above my rating.

00:15:01.700 | And of course, I was very rusty

00:15:04.100 | and I hadn't played a tournament in a while,

00:15:05.580 | but it went pretty well.

00:15:07.740 | - Do you feel the pressure

00:15:08.620 | when you're actually recording it, like the streaming?

00:15:11.620 | - It was definitely, so before every round,

00:15:14.900 | I was vlogging and I was doing meet and greets

00:15:17.300 | and doing other things for the live stream.

00:15:19.020 | - Yeah, I saw you do a meet and greet.

00:15:21.100 | You didn't know what the hell you were doing, it's great.

00:15:23.380 | - Yeah.

00:15:24.220 | - Like, how do I do this?

00:15:25.260 | - Yeah, I see.

00:15:26.500 | - What do I do?

00:15:27.580 | - It was actually really wholesome.

00:15:29.180 | The beginning was very silly

00:15:31.900 | 'cause I was just not expecting

00:15:33.620 | that it was gonna be more of a seminar.

00:15:35.300 | I thought it was like, oh, you pose and take pictures.

00:15:37.580 | But they actually asked really nice, meaningful questions,

00:15:39.500 | but unfortunately, it's bad for YouTube retention

00:15:41.580 | and we cut 'em all out, so.

00:15:43.580 | - Bad for YouTube.

00:15:44.980 | The good long-form conversation.

00:15:46.700 | So it was like questions, Q&A type of thing.

00:15:48.380 | - Exactly.

00:15:49.220 | You have to have very fast-paced for YouTube

00:15:51.420 | and that seminar was not fast-paced.

00:15:54.140 | - Okay, well, not everything in life

00:15:55.820 | needs to be on YouTube, right?

00:15:57.100 | - That's true.

00:15:57.940 | - There's like two parallel things,

00:15:58.940 | stuff that's fun for YouTube.

00:16:00.420 | - Yes, one day we'll post that Q&A on.

00:16:03.380 | - Yeah, when you guys, like,

00:16:04.380 | when you become like ultra famous,

00:16:06.420 | you're currently just regular famous.

00:16:08.180 | - And then they'll appreciate the long, slow content, yes.

00:16:12.620 | - And that, the YouTube aspect, the creation aspect,

00:16:15.420 | does that add to the fun, ultimately, of the chess,

00:16:18.580 | of like your love of chess?

00:16:20.140 | - Oh, for the love of chess in general

00:16:21.620 | or just for competing in that one tournament?

00:16:24.340 | - No, love of chess in general.

00:16:25.380 | I think you said that for competing for that tournament

00:16:28.020 | was adding pressure.

00:16:28.980 | - Yeah, but actually I would say like a good pressure,

00:16:31.620 | but yeah, this is where I differed to Alex

00:16:33.980 | because when I was just competitive and I was younger,

00:16:37.860 | I don't think I loved chess as much

00:16:39.340 | as when I started doing it for content

00:16:41.060 | because unlike her, who a lot of her friends

00:16:43.540 | and social circle were other chess players,

00:16:46.300 | I never really traveled

00:16:47.380 | and built really solid friendships through chess

00:16:50.060 | until I started streaming and meeting other chess streamers

00:16:52.860 | and actually playing and talking to people for fun

00:16:55.940 | rather than just always being alone in the game

00:16:58.220 | and never really meeting other people my age

00:17:00.540 | or people with similar interests.

00:17:02.140 | So I would say Twitch was the thing

00:17:04.220 | that really changed how I approached the game.

00:17:07.300 | - I think with some YouTubers,

00:17:09.220 | there's a pressure to be almost somebody else.

00:17:11.420 | You create a persona and you're stuck in that persona.

00:17:14.340 | I think I'm too much of a boomer

00:17:19.100 | to know what the hell Twitch is anyway,

00:17:20.620 | but it feels like when you're actually live streaming,

00:17:23.820 | you can't help but be who you really are.

00:17:26.180 | - I think it's, oh, well, I think when you're live streaming

00:17:28.860 | and I've talked to a lot of other streamers about this,

00:17:31.340 | you kind of just over-exaggerate one side

00:17:33.820 | of your personality and of course,

00:17:35.780 | it's kind of like being like on all the time.

00:17:37.700 | Like you're trying to be more entertaining

00:17:39.300 | and sometimes you're being sillier at moments

00:17:42.260 | or more, you take what character traits

00:17:45.860 | people know you for.

00:17:46.860 | And for me, one is being like ADHD

00:17:48.740 | and the younger sibling who's very energetic

00:17:52.220 | and causes trouble, even though sometimes it goes quick.

00:17:53.900 | - Yeah, I'm sure you cause trouble just for the camera.

00:17:56.300 | - Yeah, right? (laughs)

00:17:57.740 | - Yeah, I think, and of course,

00:17:59.580 | once you're live streaming for like four or five hours,

00:18:01.660 | there's gonna be moments in the stream where it's more chill

00:18:04.020 | but especially when you're editing that content

00:18:07.140 | or you're doing bigger streams that are shorter,

00:18:10.820 | you are kind of playing up a side of yourself.

00:18:13.180 | Because of course, there's a lot of parts of me

00:18:15.180 | that I don't show to the camera

00:18:16.420 | 'cause they're not as entertaining to watch.

00:18:18.180 | Like the more serious part.

00:18:19.740 | - And also there's things that you are really interested in

00:18:23.460 | about what you do.

00:18:24.500 | Like I love competitive chess where I could sit

00:18:27.100 | and really think about it,

00:18:28.100 | but I know that that is not gonna be

00:18:29.540 | as entertaining for a stream.

00:18:30.780 | I know that's not gonna be as entertaining for YouTube.

00:18:33.220 | So you kind of have to take what you like,

00:18:35.500 | but then really adapt it for whatever the format is.

00:18:38.460 | And sometimes that feels inauthentic,

00:18:41.820 | but other times it just feels like repackaging

00:18:44.500 | what you love for people in a more general audience to enjoy.

00:18:49.060 | - Do you feel like it's a trap a little bit as you evolve?

00:18:51.940 | - Oh, I think social media is, oh, sorry, go ahead.

00:18:56.340 | - Social media in general is a trap of that kind?

00:18:59.620 | - Well, so we've been trying to switch

00:19:01.380 | to learn how to make YouTube videos recently.

00:19:03.780 | And so much of learning YouTube school

00:19:07.380 | is kind of the beastification of content

00:19:09.580 | where you try to get to the point of the video

00:19:12.540 | within like the first 10 seconds to not lose people.

00:19:15.420 | - You mean like Mr. Beast?

00:19:17.180 | - Yeah, where it's so fast paced,

00:19:19.340 | there's a reason to wait, there's high stakes.

00:19:21.700 | And everything is created to keep people watching the video

00:19:24.420 | and keep people on the platform.

00:19:26.060 | And in some ways it is a trap

00:19:28.340 | because it's harder to do the kind of content you like

00:19:32.380 | because you really have to squeeze it to be like,

00:19:34.180 | okay, well, do we have a good thumbnail for this?

00:19:36.460 | Do we have a good title for this?

00:19:38.620 | And that's something that we're trying to figure out

00:19:41.060 | how to keep true to what we wanna do.

00:19:45.820 | - Yeah, see, the way I think about it is,

00:19:47.460 | yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can create

00:19:49.380 | and yeah, the Mr. Beastification process.

00:19:52.620 | But also I think about what are the videos,

00:19:57.180 | conversations or things I will create in this life

00:20:01.140 | that will be the best thing I do.

00:20:04.020 | And I try not to do things in my life

00:20:08.740 | that will prevent me from getting there.

00:20:10.820 | I feel like if you're always focusing on doing kind of,

00:20:14.940 | optimizing the thumbnail and the 10 seconds and so on,

00:20:17.620 | you'll never do the thing that's truly you're known for

00:20:21.420 | and remembered for.

00:20:22.740 | So finding that balance is tricky.

00:20:25.100 | - I get that, but at the same time,

00:20:27.260 | this might be my own copium,

00:20:28.640 | which I know is a word you know now.

00:20:31.200 | - Yeah, I'm slowly learning the full complexity

00:20:33.600 | of the term, yes.

00:20:35.080 | - But the other way I think about it is,

00:20:38.680 | it is a skill to learn how to communicate

00:20:42.600 | with large audiences.

00:20:44.600 | And first I started streaming chess,

00:20:47.240 | which is something I just did and really loved.

00:20:49.480 | But now I have to learn how to translate that format.

00:20:52.440 | And if that's a skillset we could build,

00:20:54.240 | then we could use it to do really important things.

00:20:57.080 | And I've seen a lot of YouTubers

00:20:58.720 | who have done interviews about how,

00:21:01.120 | they didn't love the kind of content they did at first,

00:21:03.640 | but what they're doing right now is really meaningful.

00:21:06.040 | So I like to think of it maybe like skill development,

00:21:08.720 | 'cause not everybody hits off podcasts

00:21:11.280 | where they can talk to super interesting people

00:21:12.960 | right off the bat.

00:21:14.140 | - Yeah, you can be slow and boring in a podcast.

00:21:17.240 | You don't have to worry about the first 10 seconds.

00:21:19.280 | I mean, people like keep pushing me for,

00:21:21.200 | 'cause the first 10 seconds of the videos I do is,

00:21:25.480 | well, I know it's most important for YouTube,

00:21:27.080 | but I don't give a damn.

00:21:28.760 | I wrote a Chrome extension

00:21:30.160 | that hides all the views and likes.

00:21:32.080 | I don't look at the click through.

00:21:34.800 | - I don't look at Twitch views, Andrea does.

00:21:37.040 | So we also can relate.

00:21:39.120 | - I love numbers too, but that's why I don't look at it.

00:21:41.400 | 'Cause you become like,

00:21:42.680 | oh, you'll start to think that a conversation

00:21:45.680 | or I think you did sucks because it doesn't get views.

00:21:48.760 | But that's just not the case.

00:21:50.760 | The YouTube algorithm is this monster

00:21:52.760 | that figures stuff out.

00:21:54.160 | And if you let it control your mind,

00:21:56.480 | I feel like it's gonna destroy you creatively.

00:21:58.680 | So you have to find a nice balance.

00:22:01.120 | - I have to say, I was laughing a little bit

00:22:03.000 | when I was listening to the Magnus episode.

00:22:04.920 | In the first 10 minutes,

00:22:05.840 | you guys are talking about soccer, football.

00:22:08.240 | - Two robots seem human in the conversation.

00:22:11.120 | - I was like, let's have some fun,

00:22:14.560 | make conversation about non-chess related topics.

00:22:17.760 | - Yeah, talk about sports.

00:22:19.200 | - Yeah, it was kind of hilarious.

00:22:20.720 | I was surprised that even at his level,

00:22:24.880 | I wasn't sure, but I was surprised how much he loves chess.

00:22:28.680 | It sounds cliche to say,

00:22:29.920 | but the way he looked at a chess board,

00:22:32.520 | you know those memes,

00:22:33.360 | like I wish somebody looked at me the way,

00:22:35.520 | he's still like the way he glanced down

00:22:39.320 | and he reached for the pieces of excitement

00:22:41.160 | to show me something.

00:22:42.160 | There wasn't like, okay, I'll show you.

00:22:45.960 | It was like, there was still that fire.

00:22:49.240 | - That's something that always shocks me

00:22:50.840 | about some of like super grandmasters.

00:22:53.440 | Like one of my coaches was a person who also,

00:22:57.120 | his name's GM Hammer of Norway.

00:22:58.480 | He also coached Magnus, he was his second.

00:23:01.280 | And he was helping me train for my tournament.

00:23:04.080 | And I was kind of putting off doing the homework.

00:23:06.480 | He's like, if you're putting it off,

00:23:07.560 | that means you're studying the wrong thing.

00:23:08.960 | Like you should be enjoying, even when you're practicing,

00:23:11.480 | which when I grew up, I thought to get to the top level,

00:23:14.320 | like practicing has to be hard and unpleasant.

00:23:17.080 | And when I was listening to your Magnus episode,

00:23:19.040 | he was like, I didn't read books very much.

00:23:20.920 | Or it was one thing that you said

00:23:22.000 | that's like very normal for studying classical chess

00:23:25.240 | that he didn't do just 'cause it didn't interest him.

00:23:27.400 | - He says I suck at puzzles.

00:23:29.200 | I don't like puzzles.

00:23:30.160 | - Yeah, and he doesn't do what he doesn't enjoy.

00:23:32.280 | And that's because it's like purely driven out of passion.

00:23:35.640 | - I think the internet was like, I suck at puzzles too.

00:23:38.360 | - Yeah, they like them.

00:23:39.200 | - Yeah, grandmas. - They're related.

00:23:41.600 | - I don't have to study at all.

00:23:43.040 | It's just, it's fun.

00:23:45.240 | But I think the lesson there that's really powerful

00:23:47.880 | is he spends most of the day thinking about chess

00:23:49.960 | because he wants to.

00:23:51.440 | So do whatever, if you're into getting better at chess,

00:23:54.200 | do whatever it takes. - Exactly.

00:23:56.120 | - To actually just the number of hours

00:23:57.720 | you spend a day thinking about chess, maximize that.

00:24:00.400 | If you're like super serious about it.

00:24:02.080 | - I actually get very addicted

00:24:03.800 | whenever I start studying chess,

00:24:05.720 | which is why I don't do it as seriously

00:24:08.120 | when I'm focused on content.

00:24:10.600 | 'Cause I go through these rabbit holes

00:24:13.160 | where if I'm focusing on chess,

00:24:14.880 | I wanna be as good as I possibly can at the game.

00:24:17.560 | Otherwise it's hard for me to enjoy it

00:24:19.320 | 'cause it's such a competitive thing.

00:24:21.280 | And I remember training for tournaments.

00:24:23.240 | And when you're training for tournaments,

00:24:25.120 | you even start dreaming about chess

00:24:27.480 | and you can't stop thinking about it.

00:24:29.320 | And it's as if you're flipped

00:24:31.200 | into this completely different world,

00:24:33.360 | which is also what I like best about the game,

00:24:35.240 | that it's a completely different living experience.

00:24:38.360 | - And then you take some drugs

00:24:39.360 | and now you start to see things on the ceiling.

00:24:41.520 | Is there some factual hallucination

00:24:44.400 | to the Queen's Gambit, like those scenes?

00:24:48.680 | - I think it's--

00:24:49.840 | - Is that based on your life story?

00:24:51.120 | - From, well, I can't say that on camera.

00:24:53.520 | No, just kidding.

00:24:55.000 | Actually, chess players are very careful to not take drugs.

00:24:58.400 | They drink a lot.

00:25:00.520 | They drink so much.

00:25:01.480 | It's actually crazy for how good

00:25:03.320 | they're able to play chess when they do.

00:25:05.440 | But when it comes to things like psychedelics

00:25:07.800 | or other things, they usually stay away from those

00:25:10.240 | 'cause they don't wanna mess anything up in their brain.

00:25:12.200 | - So this is actually an intervention.

00:25:13.920 | I saw that you mentioned somewhere,

00:25:17.080 | I think it was the lie detector test

00:25:18.360 | where you have a drinking problem.

00:25:20.600 | Is that an actual--

00:25:22.320 | - I think that's actually a meme

00:25:25.400 | that we like to joke about on stream

00:25:27.280 | because occasionally we'd have a white claw on stream

00:25:30.000 | or something like that and then people meme about it.

00:25:32.240 | It goes back to Andrea's point of amplifying

00:25:34.680 | a part of your personality to make yourself

00:25:37.520 | a little bit more entertaining.

00:25:39.520 | - I'm gonna use that as an excuse from now on.

00:25:42.000 | This podcast is just amplifying a part of the personality.

00:25:45.400 | I'm not really like this.

00:25:46.640 | But have you played drunk?

00:25:48.800 | Like Magnus has played drunk.

00:25:50.640 | He says it helps him with the creativity.

00:25:52.520 | Is there any truth to that?

00:25:53.880 | - Well, Andrea is under 21, so she's obviously--

00:25:56.600 | - Would never do this. - Would never do that.

00:25:59.080 | But I have played while drinking.

00:26:01.200 | Actually, I enjoy playing chess and drinking

00:26:05.520 | more than pre-gaming or going out to a club and drinking,

00:26:08.840 | which sounds really silly.

00:26:10.200 | And I'll usually play against opponents

00:26:11.800 | who are also having some beer.

00:26:14.000 | And it does make you feel like you're seeing the game

00:26:17.120 | from a fresher perspective where it can sometimes

00:26:20.600 | make you feel more confident, liquid confidence.

00:26:23.280 | And it does help with creativity.

00:26:24.800 | You just feel like you could pull things off.

00:26:27.440 | But there's also a limit.

00:26:28.400 | It's more like you've had one drink or two drink,

00:26:30.400 | but then it goes beyond that.

00:26:31.800 | And then you just start missing tactics

00:26:33.520 | and it's not worth it.

00:26:34.520 | - Yeah, I think it only helps players

00:26:36.360 | in very short time controls.

00:26:38.000 | One time I was challenging this grandmaster on stream

00:26:40.600 | and we were playing bullet chess,

00:26:42.240 | which is one minute chess.

00:26:43.960 | And I was giving him handicaps and I said,

00:26:45.760 | "Okay, you have to take four shots before the next game."

00:26:48.520 | And he just got like 10 times stronger

00:26:50.640 | and transformed into like the Hulk

00:26:52.360 | and destroyed me more than last game.

00:26:54.680 | So, but of course, if you're playing like a three hour game,

00:26:57.760 | it's gonna get old.

00:26:58.600 | But I think in short time controls, it's amazing.

00:27:00.880 | - Yeah, definitely has to be blitz.

00:27:02.480 | It has to be where it's more intuition

00:27:04.440 | rather than sitting and calculating.

00:27:06.280 | - This is probably like negatively affecting

00:27:08.040 | your ability to calculate.

00:27:09.080 | - Absolutely.

00:27:10.360 | - How much, when you guys play,

00:27:11.640 | when you look at the chess board,

00:27:12.680 | how much of it is calculation?

00:27:14.040 | How much of it is intuition?

00:27:17.440 | How much of it is memorized openings?

00:27:21.440 | - It really depends between short form chess.

00:27:25.600 | So five minutes, three minutes, one minute

00:27:27.640 | and classical chess.

00:27:28.960 | - What's your favorite to play?

00:27:29.960 | - I love playing blitz now because that's most of what I do.

00:27:33.360 | And that's actually how I got into chess streaming

00:27:35.320 | 'cause I couldn't spend entire weekends

00:27:37.160 | or weeks playing tournaments.

00:27:38.320 | So I would just, while I was in college,

00:27:40.400 | log on and play these long blitz or bullet sessions.

00:27:43.640 | And it's very fast.

00:27:44.960 | So you don't have time to go calculate as deeply.

00:27:48.400 | You basically have to calculate short lines pretty quickly.

00:27:51.640 | And a lot of it is pattern recognition and intuition.

00:27:55.240 | - That's three minutes you said?

00:27:56.280 | - Three minutes, yeah.

00:27:57.520 | - Okay, cool.

00:27:58.360 | And so for that, it's just basically intuition.

00:28:00.920 | - A lot of it is intuition, yeah.

00:28:02.760 | - See, I saw on the streams,

00:28:03.800 | you actually keep talking while playing chess.

00:28:05.720 | It seems really difficult.

00:28:06.560 | - Yeah, that helps my result.

00:28:07.400 | That doesn't help my results.

00:28:08.600 | - It doesn't?

00:28:09.440 | - It helps the content, not the game.

00:28:10.480 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:28:11.560 | - But you can still do it.

00:28:12.880 | 'Cause it feels like,

00:28:14.080 | how can you possibly concentrate while talking?

00:28:17.000 | - It's because so much of it is intuition.

00:28:19.160 | You're not, while you're talking,

00:28:20.720 | you're thinking about that topic,

00:28:22.080 | but then you just come to the board

00:28:23.320 | and you just understand what you should be doing here.

00:28:26.160 | And then sometimes you get in trouble 'cause you're talking

00:28:28.800 | and you have now lost half of your time.

00:28:30.480 | You have a minute and a half,

00:28:31.320 | your opponent has three,

00:28:32.480 | and you're kind of at a disadvantage.

00:28:34.320 | But that kind of goes to show

00:28:36.880 | that that's how blitz chess usually works,

00:28:38.720 | whereas classical is very different.

00:28:40.240 | - Which of you is better at chess?

00:28:41.880 | I mean, let's do it this way.

00:28:43.280 | Can you, Andrea, can you say,

00:28:46.480 | in which way is Alex stronger than you?

00:28:49.920 | Which way is she weaker than you?

00:28:51.760 | Not physically in terms of chess.

00:28:54.840 | - Well, yes, of course she is higher rated.

00:28:58.320 | But when we do play,

00:29:00.400 | I think her strengths against me,

00:29:01.840 | where she really gets me, is the end game.

00:29:03.720 | She has stronger end game.

00:29:04.840 | So she can, and I actually have a stronger opening.

00:29:08.360 | But as soon as she's able to simplify-

00:29:09.200 | - I'm supposed to say what is good about you,

00:29:11.480 | not you.

00:29:12.320 | - Yeah, no, I'm getting there.

00:29:13.720 | Well, see, this is what I'm saying,

00:29:14.960 | because don't worry, it's related, okay?

00:29:17.440 | 'Cause I can get an advantage in the beginning of the game,

00:29:20.280 | but as soon as she starts trading pieces down,

00:29:22.240 | like my confidence drops,

00:29:23.520 | because I know that the end game

00:29:25.240 | is the hardest part of the game and the longest,

00:29:27.600 | and that's where she ends up beating me.

00:29:29.320 | So her end game is her,

00:29:31.600 | I think really what makes the difference.

00:29:32.920 | And she has to be a little bit-

00:29:33.760 | - It sounds like her psychological warfare is better too.

00:29:36.640 | - That definitely.

00:29:37.480 | - 'Cause if you're getting nervous.

00:29:38.560 | - That is definitely.

00:29:39.400 | - But it's harder to play against higher rated players,

00:29:41.400 | same how Magnus in former World Championship champions

00:29:44.920 | have that psychological edge.

00:29:46.560 | So I think it's always gonna be different for Andrea,

00:29:48.600 | 'cause she knows statistically,

00:29:50.400 | she should be winning something like one in four games,

00:29:52.960 | but she usually does better than that,

00:29:55.160 | 'cause she's very distracting and talks a lot.

00:29:58.040 | - That does help.

00:29:59.120 | - What does it feel like to play a higher rated player?

00:30:01.960 | What's the experience of that?

00:30:03.720 | Playing somebody like Magnus.

00:30:08.840 | - So it depends on how much higher rated than you they are.

00:30:11.920 | If it's someone who's like between me and Andrea,

00:30:13.840 | let's say it's a 200 point difference,

00:30:16.280 | you know they should win,

00:30:17.320 | but at least you still feel like you have a chance.

00:30:19.760 | I was playing in Title Tuesday,

00:30:21.900 | which is this tournament chess.com has every Tuesday.

00:30:24.560 | And I got really lucky, beat a GM,

00:30:26.840 | drew an international master,

00:30:27.960 | and then I got paired against Hikaru Nakamura.

00:30:30.560 | And my brain just went blank,

00:30:32.520 | 'cause I just know that I'm so unlikely to win

00:30:35.280 | that I couldn't even play the game properly

00:30:37.600 | when it's that much of a difference

00:30:39.080 | where they should be winning like 99% of the time.

00:30:42.520 | - But that's like psychological.

00:30:43.860 | So you're saying that's the biggest experience

00:30:45.600 | is like actually knowing the numbers

00:30:48.280 | and statistically thinking there's no way I can win.

00:30:50.640 | But I meant like, is there a suffocating feeling

00:30:52.760 | like positionally you feel like

00:30:54.900 | you're constantly under attack?

00:30:57.880 | - You just feel like you're slowly getting outsmarted.

00:31:00.680 | And the worst is when you don't even know

00:31:02.660 | what you're doing wrong.

00:31:03.840 | You come out of that and you're like,

00:31:05.600 | I thought I was doing great and I got slowly squeezed.

00:31:08.480 | I didn't understand what was going on.

00:31:10.400 | And you're just kind of baffled.

00:31:11.740 | It's kind of like watching AlphaZero beat up Stockfish.

00:31:15.280 | And you don't really understand

00:31:16.720 | why it's making certain moves

00:31:18.320 | or how it thought of the plan.

00:31:19.760 | You just see it slowly getting the position better.

00:31:22.600 | And that's what it feels like.

00:31:24.280 | - I would add, it's kind of different for me

00:31:26.960 | if they're someone who's significantly higher rated.

00:31:29.240 | So let's say more than like 300 points

00:31:31.000 | or you're playing Magnus.

00:31:32.720 | What I notice is I just feel lost straight.

00:31:35.540 | As soon as I don't know my preparation

00:31:37.560 | because they know so many opening lines

00:31:39.360 | that they're gonna know the best line to beat you

00:31:41.280 | that you haven't studied.

00:31:42.760 | So then on move 10, you're like,

00:31:44.120 | he already has a maybe plus 0.5 advantage

00:31:47.360 | which is really small.

00:31:48.620 | But for someone with such a significant skill level,

00:31:51.720 | you know you're already lost at that point.

00:31:53.240 | And it's like a third of the game.

00:31:55.920 | - What are the strengths and weaknesses of Andrea?

00:32:00.760 | - Andrea is very good at opening preparation.

00:32:04.480 | - As she said.

00:32:05.320 | - As she said, she likes bringing that up.

00:32:07.760 | I mean, she's very meticulous about it

00:32:09.360 | where she'll really go in and learn her lines.

00:32:13.680 | And having that initial starting confidence

00:32:16.020 | isn't just helpful for the opening

00:32:17.640 | but it helps develop your plans for the middle game.

00:32:20.320 | So I think she's very good at that.

00:32:22.180 | I think she's actually pretty good at tactical combinations.

00:32:27.880 | - What is tactics?

00:32:29.800 | - Tactics is like solving puzzles

00:32:33.560 | or basically finding lines that are forced

00:32:36.520 | where if you find them, you're going to win.

00:32:39.120 | - So that's like puzzles within a position.

00:32:41.720 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:32:42.640 | Whereas strategic chess is making slow moves

00:32:45.800 | and over the process of like 20 moves,

00:32:48.240 | you get a slightly better position

00:32:49.920 | based on an understanding of the overall strategy.

00:32:54.020 | - So in my extensive research of you on Wikipedia,

00:32:57.020 | it says your most played opening

00:33:00.560 | is the King's Indian Defense

00:33:02.900 | in which "Black allows white to advance their pawns

00:33:05.800 | "to the center of the board in the first two moves."

00:33:09.340 | Is there any truth to this?

00:33:11.200 | - So the King's Indian-- - And what is it?

00:33:13.440 | - Probably is my most played opening.

00:33:15.620 | And it's one where even when my coach

00:33:19.080 | who was a grandmaster taught me,

00:33:20.320 | he's like, "So you know,

00:33:21.240 | "I've been playing the King's Indian for 10 years

00:33:23.160 | "and I still don't understand it."

00:33:25.200 | And it's one of those openings

00:33:26.580 | that computers really don't like

00:33:28.600 | because you do-- - They hate it.

00:33:29.600 | - Or at least Stockfish doesn't like it.

00:33:31.320 | Maybe AlphaZero would change their mind.

00:33:32.940 | I forgot to look at what--

00:33:34.420 | - Can you show me, by the way, what it is?

00:33:35.880 | - Yeah.

00:33:36.720 | - Is it white's opening or black's opening?

00:33:39.880 | - Black responds to the d4 queen's pawn push

00:33:44.880 | and you take your knight out to f6.

00:33:46.920 | I'll just put in the stereotypical,

00:33:50.480 | classical King's Indian more so to say.

00:33:53.180 | - We actually have a very famous King's Indian game

00:33:57.220 | in the notes that we prepared for hours.

00:34:00.580 | For the record, I asked you guys for some games

00:34:03.180 | that you find pretty cool

00:34:04.480 | and maybe to get a chance to talk about some.

00:34:06.720 | - Yeah.

00:34:07.860 | So this is the King's Indian.

00:34:09.420 | As you can see, white has much more control over the center.

00:34:14.420 | White has three pawns in the center

00:34:16.720 | while black has none past the fifth rank.

00:34:19.580 | And you just have this pawn on d6.

00:34:21.940 | And one of the ideas in chess is

00:34:23.700 | if you're not taking the center,

00:34:25.160 | then your plan revolves around

00:34:27.140 | trying to continually challenge it.

00:34:29.640 | But what is really fun about the King's Indian

00:34:33.180 | is that black sometimes gets these crazy king side attacks

00:34:38.080 | while white gets queen side attacks.

00:34:39.820 | And even though it's a little bit suspicious for black

00:34:43.300 | and the computer could usually break it,

00:34:45.760 | it's hard to defend as a human when you're being attacked.

00:34:49.260 | But if you don't pull off the attack as black,

00:34:51.700 | then you're just gonna end up being lost in the end game.

00:34:54.360 | - So it's like a very asymmetrical position.

00:34:56.520 | - It's very asymmetrical.

00:34:57.920 | Although a lot of people now stop playing

00:35:00.420 | into the classical King's Indian,

00:35:02.060 | even though computers give it a big advantage.

00:35:04.820 | And they play these slower lines in the King's Indian,

00:35:07.960 | which are less fun to play.

00:35:09.700 | - What's slower mean?

00:35:10.620 | It takes a longer time to like do something interesting with?

00:35:14.640 | - They basically don't let you get

00:35:17.740 | as much of a king side attack

00:35:19.660 | because they try opening up the center.

00:35:22.000 | And then you have no weaknesses,

00:35:23.780 | but you're just slowly improving the position of your pieces

00:35:27.000 | instead of being able to go for that king side attack.

00:35:29.300 | - So for people just listening,

00:35:30.580 | there is the white pawns are all on the fourth row

00:35:34.820 | in a row together.

00:35:35.860 | That feels like a bad position.

00:35:37.500 | - For black?

00:35:38.340 | - For white.

00:35:39.460 | - Oh, you don't like taking the center?

00:35:41.380 | - No, I like taking the center.

00:35:43.460 | Now you're talking trash already.

00:35:45.060 | - Oh, sorry.

00:35:45.900 | - But like, they just like, they're like, feel vulnerable.

00:35:49.460 | They're in a row together.

00:35:50.740 | Like it's like, you know,

00:35:53.420 | 'cause they're like, who's gonna defend them?

00:35:54.940 | I guess the nice defend and the queen defends it.

00:35:57.560 | - You're actually talking about a theme

00:35:59.520 | that you do see sometimes, which is called hanging pawns.

00:36:02.400 | And when you have two pawns right next to each other

00:36:04.540 | with no other pawns to defend them.

00:36:06.420 | So it is a valid point.

00:36:10.000 | And actually as black, you're trying to break apart

00:36:11.800 | these pawns or get them to push

00:36:13.520 | and create some holes into the position,

00:36:15.800 | but it's a trade-off.

00:36:17.680 | And that's a lot of what chess openings are about.

00:36:20.920 | You get more space, but you'll also end up having

00:36:23.200 | to protect your pawns potentially or move them forward

00:36:25.660 | to the point where they're overextended.

00:36:27.220 | - And plus the pawns being vulnerable, it's kind of fun.

00:36:29.820 | This is like, there's more stuff in danger.

00:36:31.780 | They're not, 'cause if it's like this,

00:36:34.500 | everything's like trapped.

00:36:36.220 | Like you can't do anything.

00:36:37.300 | - Everything's blocked, yeah.

00:36:38.460 | - Blocked off, yeah.

00:36:40.060 | So you can't have fun.

00:36:41.940 | - Yeah.

00:36:42.780 | One of the most, one of the opening principles for white

00:36:46.140 | is get your pawns in the center.

00:36:47.540 | So I'd say like, this is actually preferable for white.

00:36:51.900 | - Let's go over some opening principles.

00:36:53.480 | I have no clue about opening principles.

00:36:54.320 | - 'Cause this is a very good learning lesson

00:36:56.000 | for any chess beginners in the audience.

00:36:59.020 | Okay, so first thing you wanna do is control the center.

00:37:05.080 | There you go, E4, the more aggressive one.

00:37:07.200 | - Isn't that like the basic vanilla move?

00:37:09.760 | I didn't, somebody told me that's the most popular

00:37:12.920 | opening move in chess.

00:37:14.360 | - It is.

00:37:15.200 | - Why is that considered aggressive?

00:37:16.360 | - So it's E4 and D4, and the king's pawn is known

00:37:20.400 | as being for more tactical players,

00:37:22.660 | whereas D4 is known for more positional players.

00:37:25.860 | So that's why it's considered more aggressive.

00:37:28.420 | - Tactical. - More gambits with E4,

00:37:30.420 | I think.

00:37:31.260 | - So tactical means I'm gonna try to attack you.

00:37:35.580 | - You're gonna try to go for puzzles

00:37:37.680 | and rely more on your combination abilities.

00:37:42.480 | Whereas if it's something positional,

00:37:44.540 | you usually have like three to four moves

00:37:46.820 | that are all good in the position,

00:37:48.020 | whereas tactics, you need to see this one line.

00:37:50.740 | So it's more precise.

00:37:52.260 | - So this one's cool 'cause he can like,

00:37:54.540 | you know, the queen can come out, the bishop can come out.

00:37:57.060 | - Yeah, and that's one of the most popular checkmates,

00:38:00.500 | and usually what you teach new students

00:38:02.300 | to try to cheese their friends,

00:38:03.740 | 'cause then they feel really excited

00:38:04.940 | that they know this new trap where you bring the bishop

00:38:07.340 | and the queen out and you try to checkmate on F7.

00:38:10.020 | - So the trap that queen's gambit,

00:38:12.300 | Beth Harmon falls for in their first game versus the janitor.

00:38:16.260 | She gets all mad 'cause she gets checkmated very early.

00:38:18.700 | - Oh, that's the one she gets checkmated with?

00:38:20.060 | - Yeah.

00:38:20.900 | - Okay, I love how you guys were actually paying attention

00:38:23.100 | to the games carefully, which is pretty cool

00:38:25.940 | that they did a good job of evolving her game

00:38:29.260 | throughout the show to actually represent

00:38:31.740 | an actual growth of a chess player.

00:38:33.420 | - Yeah, they really took every detail into consideration,

00:38:37.580 | which was cool.

00:38:38.460 | - Okay, so what else?

00:38:40.700 | I brought stuff into the center.

00:38:41.540 | - Oh, you wanna do the same?

00:38:42.460 | Okay, so then you wanna develop your pieces.

00:38:45.620 | So in the beginning of the game,

00:38:46.740 | you wanna take out the bishops and knights first,

00:38:49.180 | because you don't wanna start with the most valuable piece,

00:38:51.740 | like the queen, 'cause then it'll become a vulnerability

00:38:54.900 | and it'll get attacked very early on.

00:38:57.140 | And the reason you're taking out these two pieces first

00:39:00.420 | is 'cause you wanna castle your king.

00:39:02.500 | So you can move a knight move or a bishop move,

00:39:04.660 | and that's considered developing.

00:39:06.700 | - Yeah, so at this stage,

00:39:08.300 | not like even before getting a few pawns out?

00:39:11.940 | - You usually wanna start with getting a pawn

00:39:14.940 | because you wanna get space in the center,

00:39:16.980 | but also when you push pawns,

00:39:18.900 | it helps free up some of your pieces.

00:39:21.180 | So usually start with one pawn first,

00:39:24.860 | and then you could start taking out your minor pieces,

00:39:26.900 | which is the bishop and the knight.

00:39:28.220 | - I have anxiety about a pawn just floating out there,

00:39:31.380 | defenseless.

00:39:32.700 | - But it's not attacked yet.

00:39:34.460 | See, those are what you call ghost threats.

00:39:36.100 | So you're scared of something that hasn't happened yet.

00:39:38.500 | So if I were to attack it-

00:39:40.180 | - I feel like there's a deeper thing going on here.

00:39:43.500 | Actually, let's say-

00:39:44.740 | - Yeah, so you're attacking the pawn in the center here,

00:39:47.460 | and it is vulnerable, but as soon as you do that,

00:39:50.580 | I can develop my own knight and defend it as well.

00:39:53.740 | - Okay, and for people just listening,

00:39:55.380 | there's two pawns that just came out to meet each other,

00:39:58.620 | and a couple of knights.

00:40:00.180 | - We love the chess commentary.

00:40:02.060 | (laughing)

00:40:03.020 | - The pawns met after midnight.

00:40:04.940 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:40:06.060 | Well, we gotta romanticize the game a bit.

00:40:08.420 | - Exactly.

00:40:09.260 | - Okay, cool.

00:40:10.100 | So if you bring out the bishops with the knights,

00:40:14.860 | you're matching that with the other,

00:40:16.580 | the black is going to match it.

00:40:18.260 | Whatever you're attacking with-

00:40:19.740 | - Yep, he's developing.

00:40:20.580 | - Is gonna defend it.

00:40:21.420 | - Now you can develop your bishop or your knight,

00:40:24.220 | whatever you'd like.

00:40:25.500 | - Oh no, now you give him options.

00:40:27.300 | - Oh, right, yeah.

00:40:29.140 | There you go.

00:40:29.980 | - Now I am attacking the pawn in the center,

00:40:32.460 | which is what you were afraid about before,

00:40:34.580 | but let's see how you defend it here.

00:40:37.180 | (laughing)

00:40:39.420 | By doing this symmetrical thing,

00:40:43.660 | bringing out the knight on the other side.

00:40:45.660 | - And actually your other move was good as well,

00:40:48.060 | defending with the pawn,

00:40:49.100 | because then you're freeing up space for your bishop.

00:40:51.860 | So you're basically trying to develop your pieces

00:40:54.500 | as quickly as possible, put your pawns in the center,

00:40:57.460 | and then get your king to safety.

00:40:59.340 | And that's usually the basic opening tips that you get.

00:41:03.100 | - And it is kind of counterintuitive

00:41:05.060 | that safety is in the corner of the board for a king.

00:41:08.340 | - It's true.

00:41:09.180 | - That was always confusing to me, but you know.

00:41:11.460 | - Three pawns in front,

00:41:12.780 | though you typically don't push those.

00:41:15.380 | Maybe like one, maybe I'll go one square,

00:41:17.700 | but these will be like the wall of defense,

00:41:21.060 | I keep them safe.

00:41:22.060 | - But another way to also think about it

00:41:24.060 | is your pieces usually wanna point towards the center.

00:41:28.060 | If you have a knight closer to the center

00:41:29.860 | than closer to the side,

00:41:31.420 | it actually has more squares it can go to.

00:41:34.060 | So a huge part of it is just wanting to have flexibility

00:41:37.220 | for where your pieces go.

00:41:38.620 | So more pieces are going to be able

00:41:41.220 | to make threats in the center,

00:41:43.180 | or even open up the position.

00:41:45.180 | So since that's where it's most likely to open,

00:41:48.460 | you want your king somewhere where the position

00:41:50.420 | will stay closed so that you have the pawns to defend.

00:41:52.900 | - You know, there's like rules like this,

00:41:54.660 | but I always wonder, 'cause I build chess engines,

00:41:57.540 | but then you start to wonder like,

00:42:00.380 | why is it that positionally these things are good?

00:42:03.380 | Like you've built up an intuition about it,

00:42:05.380 | but I wish, and that's the thing that would be amazing

00:42:08.340 | if engines could explain,

00:42:10.140 | why is this kind of thing better than this kind of thing?

00:42:13.300 | You start to build up an intuition,

00:42:15.020 | but if I'm just like know nothing about chess,

00:42:17.940 | it feels confusing that cornering your king,

00:42:21.260 | like getting him like trapped here,

00:42:25.140 | like it feels like you could get checkmated easier there.

00:42:27.900 | If I was just using like dumb intuition,

00:42:30.920 | but it seems like that's not the case.

00:42:33.380 | - I imagine maybe, 'cause AlphaZero learned

00:42:36.460 | by playing games against itself, right?

00:42:38.580 | And I imagine if you have a lot of games,

00:42:40.820 | then you do build the intuition,

00:42:42.340 | because if you were to keep your king in the center,

00:42:44.140 | you just see that in those games,

00:42:45.400 | you're dealing with threats a lot more often.

00:42:48.460 | But yeah, there's shortcut rules,

00:42:50.300 | and this doesn't even mean it's the best way to play chess,

00:42:53.100 | as we've seen with AlphaZero

00:42:55.700 | kind of changing the rules of the game a little bit.

00:42:58.020 | But as a human, to learn it from scratch

00:43:00.700 | is a lot more difficult than to start with principles,

00:43:03.280 | so that's why beginners usually learn chess this way.

00:43:07.520 | - Yeah, 'cause you're playing other humans,

00:43:09.940 | and the other humans have also operated

00:43:11.940 | on the different principles,

00:43:12.960 | and that's why people that come up now

00:43:15.940 | that are training with engines

00:43:17.640 | are just going to be much better

00:43:20.360 | than the people of the past,

00:43:21.480 | because they're gonna try out weirder ideas

00:43:24.860 | that go against the principles of old.

00:43:26.940 | And they're gonna do like weird stuff,

00:43:28.980 | including sacrifices and stuff like that.

00:43:30.780 | - Yeah, and I also think that's why AlphaZero

00:43:33.020 | was so shocking,

00:43:33.980 | because Stockfish was using an opening database,

00:43:37.260 | so it was already based off of knowledge

00:43:39.660 | that humans have from playing chess for years

00:43:41.820 | that we just thought is how you're supposed to play,

00:43:43.800 | whereas AlphaZero just learned

00:43:45.260 | from playing the game so many times

00:43:47.200 | and came up with very novel opening ideas.

00:43:49.820 | - Were you impressed by AlphaZero?

00:43:51.940 | Have you seen some of the games?

00:43:53.180 | - I have seen some of the games.

00:43:54.500 | I think impressed, bewildered, and motivated

00:43:59.500 | were the three things I experienced.

00:44:01.380 | - Like I think Magnus said,

00:44:03.660 | he was also impressed that it could easily

00:44:06.980 | be mistaken for creativity.

00:44:08.980 | That's his trash talk towards the AI.

00:44:10.780 | - That was a beautiful sentence.

00:44:12.340 | I was listening to the podcast.

00:44:14.460 | - I mean, as a human, I agree with him,

00:44:17.100 | 'cause you don't wanna give the machine

00:44:18.380 | the power of creativity,

00:44:20.420 | but if it looks creative, give it a compliment.

00:44:25.420 | - That's fair.

00:44:27.340 | I know that you're being nice to the machines

00:44:29.300 | in case they are ever looking back through this.

00:44:32.180 | - What else is there?

00:44:33.180 | What other principles are there for the opening?

00:44:36.940 | - You can go a little bit more forward, let's say.

00:44:39.820 | - Yeah, we can finish full development.

00:44:41.820 | - Positions like this,

00:44:43.260 | let's just say you developed all of your pieces.

00:44:45.820 | - So that's like a really nice,

00:44:49.500 | like nobody took any pieces

00:44:51.660 | and we're just in a nice positional thing.

00:44:53.780 | - Yeah, so it's not actually a very accurate.

00:44:56.540 | - Yeah, it's not too realistic.

00:44:57.740 | - I could put a different one on the board,

00:44:59.100 | but usually after you've developed all of your pieces,

00:45:03.100 | you wanna get your queen out a little bit

00:45:05.420 | to connect your rooks,

00:45:06.660 | and you also start thinking about certain pawn pushes

00:45:09.260 | and getting more space.

00:45:11.140 | But another good tip is just,

00:45:13.180 | can you improve the position of your pieces?

00:45:15.820 | Think about timing.

00:45:16.860 | So if you've already moved a piece once

00:45:18.940 | and there's a piece that hasn't moved at all,

00:45:20.540 | then you wanna focus on the piece that hasn't moved at all

00:45:23.380 | to be able to have it more likely to jump into the game.

00:45:26.660 | - Right, so don't move pieces multiple times.

00:45:28.620 | - Exactly.

00:45:29.460 | - Like try to move it to the most optimal position.

00:45:31.420 | - Yeah.

00:45:32.260 | - Yeah, that makes sense.

00:45:33.420 | So what's the Indian,

00:45:37.420 | I think we kind of went over it,

00:45:38.740 | but did you ever say why you like it so much?

00:45:41.860 | 'Cause it's weird, 'cause it's king side?

00:45:43.420 | - I liked it because it's a very fun, aggressive defense

00:45:48.180 | where you're just throwing your pieces towards white,

00:45:51.940 | and there's so many sacrificing opportunities.

00:45:55.700 | And for some reason, tactical games always feel

00:45:58.300 | like the most beautiful, the most satisfying.

00:46:01.220 | And that's what I liked about the King's Indian.

00:46:03.100 | But I also suffered a lot from this love

00:46:06.340 | because I would play things

00:46:07.540 | that are not necessarily correct,

00:46:09.420 | then my attack wouldn't pan out,

00:46:11.020 | and then I would just struggle the rest of the game

00:46:12.780 | having no play and just trying to defend.

00:46:14.580 | - So if you're always,

00:46:15.460 | Wikipedia also says that,

00:46:16.980 | that you're known for your attacking play.

00:46:19.740 | - It's also known for losses according to Stanford.

00:46:22.620 | - Okay, let's not bring that up.

00:46:23.860 | - Let's see, Wikipedia doesn't talk trash.

00:46:25.860 | It just says nice things.

00:46:26.700 | - Yeah, Wikipedia's a lot nicer.

00:46:29.140 | I actually played a lot of positional chess in classic

00:46:32.660 | 'cause I really like the slow squeeze.

00:46:35.340 | But when I transitioned to playing a lot of online chess,

00:46:38.660 | it's almost as if I was looking

00:46:40.620 | for more instant gratification

00:46:42.340 | 'cause it feels so much better

00:46:44.300 | to beat someone with an attack.

00:46:46.340 | And even if sometimes it doesn't pan out,

00:46:48.340 | I was okay with it 'cause you get so many games in.

00:46:51.300 | So I think my style in online chess

00:46:54.220 | really changed from my classical chess.

00:46:56.340 | - What about you, Andrea?

00:46:57.180 | Do you have a style?

00:46:58.220 | Are you attacking?

00:46:59.180 | Are you more like conservative defensive player?

00:47:02.780 | Are you chaotic?

00:47:03.700 | - Opening-wise, I like to play more positionally.

00:47:06.260 | Like I like to push T4 and just slowly improve my pieces

00:47:09.740 | and slowly get an attack.

00:47:10.780 | But like Alex said, if you're playing bullet chess

00:47:13.460 | or blitz against viewers,

00:47:15.540 | you often like wanna play riskier moves

00:47:19.220 | that may not be as good.

00:47:20.700 | And then that's kind of when I would play more aggressive.

00:47:23.140 | But I do enjoy tournaments for that reason

00:47:25.380 | 'cause then like once you're 15 moves in,

00:47:29.180 | which as soon as you're out of your prep,

00:47:31.460 | I like sitting and thinking in more positional,

00:47:33.860 | yeah, positional middle games.

00:47:37.300 | - One of the games you've found to be pretty cool

00:47:39.900 | is the Hakkar and Nakamura versus Galfond in 2009.

00:47:44.820 | And that one, I think, includes the Kings Indian defense.

00:47:47.700 | - Yes.

00:47:48.540 | - Why is that an interesting one to you?

00:47:52.220 | - I also play the Kings Indian as black

00:47:54.140 | and I love this model game.

00:47:56.220 | But, and as Alex was saying,

00:47:58.140 | like all these advantages for the Kings Indian,

00:48:00.420 | but now there's this one line

00:48:02.140 | that like every higher rated player

00:48:04.340 | just destroys my Kings Indian.

00:48:06.580 | And you see these beautiful games and like,

00:48:08.540 | ah, yes, I wanna play for these ideas,

00:48:10.620 | but now no one plays into it anymore

00:48:12.260 | and you just get demolished.

00:48:13.420 | So this is why I don't play the Kings Indian anymore,

00:48:15.340 | but not to ruin the fun.

00:48:16.420 | - It's a love-hate relationship, truly.

00:48:18.260 | - The reality.

00:48:19.300 | - But that's like the higher level players do

00:48:20.940 | or does everybody?

00:48:21.780 | - Yeah, if you're studying openings

00:48:23.500 | and you know this line as white,

00:48:25.420 | you just, you automatically get the upper edge.

00:48:27.900 | - And that's kind of how openings develop.

00:48:29.700 | You start having players trying new lines

00:48:32.780 | and then you see ones and then everybody adopts it

00:48:35.180 | if they think it's the best one.

00:48:36.540 | But yeah, so Hikaru is really known

00:48:38.460 | for his aggressive style of play.

00:48:40.940 | - Is Hikaru black here or what?

00:48:42.140 | - Yeah, Hikaru is black here.

00:48:43.220 | So he's playing the Kings Indian

00:48:45.220 | and as you can see in this position,

00:48:47.500 | white already has a lot, a huge center advantage,

00:48:51.260 | but what Hikaru is gonna start doing,

00:48:52.820 | even with the next move,

00:48:54.180 | is bringing all of his pieces towards the white king side

00:48:57.580 | because his plan is to start pushing his pawns

00:49:00.460 | towards the white king and ignore the attack

00:49:03.300 | that goes on in the queen side.

00:49:04.140 | - This is a great example of the dream attack

00:49:05.820 | with the Kings Indian.

00:49:06.860 | - So there's a complete asymmetry towards the king side

00:49:09.900 | on the left side of the board is a ton of pieces.

00:49:12.660 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:49:13.740 | - Wow, he moved the knight like three times in a row.

00:49:17.380 | - Yep, and that's what you need to do

00:49:19.100 | 'cause you have to move the knight

00:49:20.620 | in order to make space for your pawn.

00:49:22.620 | So again, this is why it's so counterintuitive

00:49:24.820 | and Stockfish doesn't like it.

00:49:26.380 | You're putting almost most of your pieces on the back rank

00:49:29.820 | and you're pushing your king side pawns

00:49:31.580 | and you're blocking your own dark squared bishop.

00:49:33.540 | So none of it makes sense.

00:49:35.420 | - You're mimicking it, that's awesome.

00:49:37.780 | - Okay, so yeah, here you see white going

00:49:39.660 | for a queen side attack,

00:49:40.900 | black going for the king side attack

00:49:42.660 | and you can keep going a little bit

00:49:43.940 | and I'll wait to where he starts with the pretty sacrifices.

00:49:47.740 | - It's more fun to analyze games in person

00:49:50.300 | than on the computer, I think.

00:49:51.500 | - Yeah.

00:49:52.340 | - Okay, so here Hikaru is preparing the attack

00:49:57.300 | and what I really like about this game

00:49:59.140 | is that he finds these tactics

00:50:01.580 | that are not necessarily what a computer would go for,

00:50:05.220 | but it's very hard to face as a human

00:50:07.740 | and that's why a lot of people play the Kings Indian

00:50:09.860 | because in practice, it's hard to defend against.

00:50:12.140 | So we can keep moving a little bit forward.

00:50:14.340 | Okay.

00:50:17.500 | Yep, so white is just continuing the king side plan.

00:50:21.780 | - Now is that like the first piece,

00:50:23.940 | I think that's taken in the game?

00:50:25.220 | - Yep, that's the first trade.

00:50:26.580 | - So he begins.

00:50:27.900 | - Exactly, Hikaru had to pause his attack for a little bit

00:50:30.740 | to just make sure that white didn't have two dire threats

00:50:34.380 | on the queen side.

00:50:35.300 | - So cool to see the asymmetry of this thing.

00:50:37.540 | - Exactly, that's what's beautiful

00:50:39.300 | about the Kings Indian.

00:50:40.140 | - And just one thing to highlight

00:50:41.340 | 'cause his rook move here is very bizarre

00:50:44.220 | and typically like a computer probably didn't like this,

00:50:47.020 | but the ideas are very interesting

00:50:48.860 | 'cause this is a major weakness for black

00:50:51.100 | that they're coming to attack

00:50:52.700 | and he's also making room for his bishop

00:50:54.620 | to come backwards and challenge.

00:50:56.100 | So this is like a human-like maneuver

00:50:58.140 | that computers wouldn't like.

00:50:58.980 | - I think computers would like this though

00:51:00.460 | 'cause you'd have to move it regardless

00:51:02.460 | 'cause he takes the pawn here

00:51:03.940 | and his rook would be under attack.

00:51:05.700 | - Yeah, well, having looked at it,

00:51:07.820 | when I actually studied this as a line

00:51:09.340 | and this right away isn't the best move

00:51:10.980 | for a current computer.

00:51:11.820 | - So actually, that's just a good question.

00:51:13.180 | So do you guys, when you study games,

00:51:14.700 | use your own mind, but do you also use computers

00:51:17.060 | to build up your intuition?

00:51:19.420 | Of like looking at a position like this

00:51:20.900 | and what would a computer do

00:51:22.380 | and then try to understand why it wants to do that?

00:51:24.820 | - When I was studying seriously,

00:51:26.580 | I would try to use my own mind

00:51:28.580 | because you're never gonna get the exact same position

00:51:31.420 | so you really need to notice trends

00:51:33.540 | and often computers will give you moves

00:51:35.300 | that are only specific to that position

00:51:38.060 | because of a certain tactic.

00:51:40.340 | But I do use computers to check what I did

00:51:43.020 | and make sure I didn't make any obvious blunder

00:51:44.820 | that I might've missed.

00:51:45.980 | - What does a computer tell you?

00:51:47.020 | Just like what is the best move

00:51:49.060 | or does it give you any kind of explanation of why?

00:51:52.580 | - It doesn't tell you why,

00:51:54.100 | but it gives you the different valuations of the position

00:51:57.060 | like black is down a half pawn here or something like that.

00:52:02.060 | But it hints you towards what the right move is

00:52:04.580 | and then it's on you to figure out why.

00:52:06.660 | And you can usually figure out why if not right away

00:52:09.300 | than just by going through a few moves

00:52:10.700 | and being like, "Oh, okay, that makes sense."

00:52:12.900 | - I feel like a computer will take you down

00:52:15.060 | with some weird lines potentially.

00:52:16.980 | - Sometimes. - Like sacrifice,

00:52:18.580 | like why the hell am I sacrificing this?

00:52:21.020 | - Well, we'll get to the pretty sacrifice soon.

00:52:23.380 | So we could just keep playing for a little bit.

00:52:25.900 | - The pawns are being pushed forward?

00:52:27.500 | - Yeah.

00:52:28.340 | And Hikaru is kind of ignoring the queen side attack here.

00:52:33.860 | They basically both only reply to each other's plan

00:52:37.300 | when they have to.

00:52:38.340 | - This is where you convert all the podcast viewers

00:52:41.980 | to YouTube.

00:52:43.220 | - Yeah.

00:52:44.060 | - They have no idea what we're talking about right now.

00:52:46.260 | - There is a Zen experience of just listening and imagining.

00:52:50.300 | - The board.

00:52:51.140 | - Just imagine that- - Imagine the pieces

00:52:52.300 | on the ceiling.

00:52:53.140 | - Yeah, we should be calling them out

00:52:55.260 | and then people will be freaking out even more.

00:52:56.940 | Am I supposed to keep track of what the position is?

00:52:59.540 | - It's too late now, it's too many.

00:53:02.180 | - How hard is blindfold chess?

00:53:03.500 | Have you tried?

00:53:04.340 | Are you able to keep the board-

00:53:05.620 | - I've played blindfold chess before.

00:53:07.500 | For me, it's pretty hard.

00:53:09.700 | It's not a muscle that I've trained as much

00:53:11.380 | and I'm very visual when it comes to chess,

00:53:13.540 | but it is one as a top player

00:53:16.900 | that starts becoming very second nature for you.

00:53:20.100 | - Actually, this is what, I talked to Magnus about this.

00:53:23.100 | Maybe I was, again, influenced by Queen's Gambit.

00:53:26.460 | What do you actually visualize when it's in your head?

00:53:29.220 | So for Magnus, it was a boring 2D board.

00:53:31.420 | - Right.

00:53:32.260 | - Do you have some kind of-

00:53:33.100 | - Does every chess player know?

00:53:34.780 | - You don't have like,

00:53:35.620 | 'cause you know some chess, like computer games,

00:53:38.540 | you can do all kinds of skins and like fancy stuff.

00:53:41.820 | You don't have anything fancy?

00:53:42.660 | - Sadly, I don't have like a cool 3D warrior mode on.

00:53:45.940 | It's just the basic.

00:53:46.780 | - I just have a default chess-based board in my head.

00:53:49.060 | 'Cause you don't, yeah, you can't use your brain power

00:53:51.860 | for adding colors to it

00:53:53.260 | 'cause you already have to keep track of the pieces.

00:53:55.340 | - As one board at a time?

00:53:56.980 | - Yes.

00:53:58.060 | - The current position.

00:53:59.060 | - Yeah, I bet every chess,

00:54:00.260 | I wonder if there's any who-

00:54:01.900 | - There's certain players who are really good

00:54:04.500 | and they can even play blindfold chess

00:54:06.340 | and play multiple games at the same time.

00:54:08.560 | So I would be curious how they do it.

00:54:11.500 | But usually when you're thinking of one game,

00:54:13.180 | that's the only one in your mind.

00:54:15.020 | - Yeah, but you have to do this operation

00:54:16.540 | where you move one piece,

00:54:18.700 | you're doing like the branch analysis.

00:54:22.820 | - Yeah.

00:54:23.700 | - And so you still have to somehow visualize

00:54:27.460 | the branching process and not forget stuff.

00:54:31.380 | Maybe that's like constant memory recall or something.

00:54:34.660 | You're always looking at one board at a time, but-

00:54:36.660 | - And you're also, oh,

00:54:37.500 | 'cause you're also looking in the future?

00:54:38.900 | - Yeah.

00:54:39.740 | - Yeah.

00:54:40.580 | - 'Cause then you have to backtrack to-

00:54:41.400 | - I guess you're keeping the position in your memory.

00:54:44.140 | So you're remembering where all the pieces are

00:54:45.900 | and then you're playing it out on one board

00:54:48.260 | and then you can come back to the initial one

00:54:50.700 | that you started with that you kind of just

00:54:52.300 | keep in your brain.

00:54:53.260 | And it's also easier to come back to it

00:54:55.300 | once you've played a position from it.

00:54:57.580 | - I feel like it's that memory recall

00:55:02.580 | that gets you to blunder.

00:55:04.740 | So I'll like see that I'm being attacked by certain things,

00:55:09.140 | but then because I get so exhausted

00:55:11.540 | thinking about a different thing,

00:55:12.980 | I actually forget about an entire branch of things

00:55:16.500 | that I was supposed to be worried about.

00:55:17.340 | - Yeah, it happens very often.

00:55:18.940 | Yeah, if you spend a bunch of time

00:55:20.940 | calculating in a position, let's say,

00:55:23.120 | like when you're really in trouble

00:55:24.140 | and you're spending 15, 20 minutes calculating,

00:55:26.780 | you'll forget about something that you spotted.

00:55:28.780 | Like, oh, if I do these two, three moves,

00:55:30.660 | I'll walk into a trap

00:55:32.060 | 'cause you've looked at so many lines

00:55:33.300 | and then you play it and then you see it

00:55:34.820 | and you're like, oh, I looked at it and I saw it,

00:55:37.060 | but I forgot about it.

00:55:38.980 | - It's often called tunneling

00:55:40.700 | where you're just looking so deeply on one thing,

00:55:42.880 | you forget about the rest of the board.

00:55:45.100 | - And it's the worst when, at least in a beginner level,

00:55:47.920 | there's like a, I don't know, a bishop just sitting there,

00:55:51.300 | obviously attacking your queen or something.

00:55:54.820 | And then you just forget that bishop exists.

00:55:57.580 | 'Cause if they just sit there for a few moves

00:55:59.420 | and don't move, you just forget their existence.

00:56:02.860 | And then it's just, yeah,

00:56:04.220 | that's definitely very embarrassing.

00:56:05.660 | - Well, it happens to everyone, so.

00:56:07.500 | - Yes.

00:56:09.340 | Okay, cool.

00:56:11.420 | - Okay, so we see a few trades happening on the queen side

00:56:15.980 | where he had to go for those, otherwise he's in trouble.

00:56:18.920 | And this is where the game, oh, sorry.

00:56:22.140 | - This is where it gets exciting.

00:56:23.940 | - Yeah, so knight H4 is really when the sacrifice starts.

00:56:28.860 | And here, the two important pawns

00:56:32.580 | are the ones in front of the king,

00:56:33.820 | 'cause they're helping with the entire defense.

00:56:35.860 | And Hikaru's actually preparing to sacrifice his knight

00:56:38.780 | for a pawn just so that he can continue his attack

00:56:42.460 | and open up the position.

00:56:43.800 | Because if you don't do that, here as black,

00:56:45.760 | and don't get some kind of attack,

00:56:47.020 | you are completely lost on the queen side.

00:56:49.180 | And also, you've pushed all of your own king side pawns,

00:56:51.940 | so you're gonna be in danger.

00:56:53.100 | So it's one of those do or die moments.

00:56:55.780 | - Oh, okay, so that's what makes it all in,

00:56:57.700 | 'cause the king is wide open.

00:56:58.860 | - Yeah, yeah, the king is wide open,

00:57:01.100 | and all of white's pieces are pointed

00:57:03.900 | towards the queen side too, where you're also cramped.

00:57:06.100 | - So it's the attack primarily by black

00:57:07.980 | done by the two pawns and the knight.

00:57:10.300 | - And the light squared bishop

00:57:11.500 | is always extremely important. - Oh, there it is.

00:57:13.140 | - So you don't wanna trade this in the king's Indian,

00:57:15.220 | because it's very helpful for a lot of attacks.

00:57:18.460 | - Even though it's on the other side of the board.

00:57:19.940 | - Yeah. - I guess it can go

00:57:20.780 | all the way across in, like, I'm not sure

00:57:24.460 | what it's doing here, but probably threatening.

00:57:26.100 | - Like, for example, if it was another move

00:57:28.900 | black could have played, would be something like bishop H3,

00:57:32.020 | where if you take the bishop,

00:57:33.220 | you actually get mated on G2.

00:57:35.420 | - With what?

00:57:36.260 | - So let's say you take here,

00:57:37.500 | and then you could push the pawn,

00:57:39.220 | and then it would be checkmate.

00:57:40.940 | So you're kinda using your bishop to sacrifice

00:57:44.460 | against white's king side pawns.

00:57:47.420 | - Yeah, I'll be freaking out if their bishop did that.

00:57:50.540 | - Exactly. - What are they up to?

00:57:51.780 | - Right, and that's the thing,

00:57:53.180 | this position looks very scary as white,

00:57:55.300 | because all of black's pawns

00:57:56.700 | are starting to come towards you,

00:57:58.580 | and it's one of those things where humans do start to worry

00:58:02.220 | in these positions, whereas computers, obviously,

00:58:04.380 | can just calculate the best line,

00:58:05.820 | and maybe the attack doesn't go through.

00:58:07.540 | - So you're saying a computer might say

00:58:09.220 | that the white is actually a slight favorite here.

00:58:12.140 | - Yeah, potentially. - That's possible.

00:58:13.660 | Okay, so then white makes a little bit of room

00:58:17.020 | by moving the rook. - Right.

00:58:18.460 | - And the attack begins.

00:58:19.940 | - I like the commentary here.

00:58:21.820 | (laughing)

00:58:22.660 | - The knight is hugging the king.

00:58:26.220 | - And actually, white can't even take the king here,

00:58:28.820 | because then h4 and h3 is coming in.

00:58:31.420 | - White can't take the knight.

00:58:32.660 | - Yeah, oh, did I say king?

00:58:33.860 | Yes, thank you, the knight.

00:58:35.100 | - White can't take the knight, because why?

00:58:37.460 | - So if white takes the knight here,

00:58:39.420 | then black starts pushing his pawn to h4,

00:58:42.020 | with h3 incoming, and the idea of trying

00:58:45.420 | to defend against this is, it looks very difficult.

00:58:49.820 | So white just chooses.

00:58:51.220 | - It'd be cool to watch a chess game,

00:58:53.220 | to experience watching it without understanding it,

00:58:55.980 | just for a day.

00:58:56.820 | I feel like I could use that to make better content.

00:58:59.460 | - True.

00:59:00.300 | Okay, yeah.

00:59:02.180 | - I mean, that's what getting drunk does.

00:59:03.380 | (laughing)

00:59:04.220 | - Unfortunately for chess players,

00:59:05.740 | it never leaves you for that.

00:59:07.620 | Doesn't matter how.

00:59:08.860 | - But this is actually a very cute move,

00:59:10.860 | because black's queen is under attack,

00:59:13.500 | but the king is so cramped that he can't actually take it,

00:59:16.860 | or he's gonna get checkmated by a pawn,

00:59:18.660 | which is a sad way to go, truly.

00:59:20.900 | - Yeah, those pawns are doing a lot of work here.

00:59:23.220 | - They really are. - That is the king's Indian.

00:59:24.860 | - This is the king's Indian player's dream.

00:59:26.700 | - The attack of the king's side pawns.

00:59:29.100 | - Yeah, these pawns are like, right,

00:59:31.260 | so they're the ones that are doing

00:59:32.380 | a lot of the threatening.

00:59:33.820 | - Right, and they're also opening up the position

00:59:35.980 | to bring more of the pieces in,

00:59:37.660 | but the pawns kind of help break open the king's side,

00:59:41.580 | but they can't checkmate by themselves,

00:59:43.580 | so after the pawns come in,

00:59:44.900 | that's when you need to start bringing in pieces as well,

00:59:46.780 | which you will see.

00:59:47.940 | - Ah, he carded you here.

00:59:49.380 | Okay. - There you go.

00:59:50.220 | He puts-- - One more sacrifice.

00:59:51.580 | - Yes, so this was actually another beautiful sacrifice

00:59:54.300 | in the game.

00:59:55.260 | - But then puts the king in check with a pawn.

00:59:59.100 | - Right, and the pawn is going to be given here for free,

01:00:02.140 | but the idea is you're giving your own piece

01:00:04.220 | because you want to have more space and open up the king,

01:00:07.700 | which is what you're always trying to do

01:00:09.300 | when you have a king's side.

01:00:10.140 | You're trying to remove as many of the king's defenders

01:00:12.220 | as you can without giving up too much of--

01:00:14.620 | - And then you have a ton of pieces on the king's side

01:00:17.700 | for black just waiting to-- - Exactly.

01:00:21.380 | - To do harm, and then--

01:00:23.220 | - And notice how every single move white is getting attacked.

01:00:26.820 | Like, they're just never getting a break.

01:00:28.480 | Black just keeps throwing all their pieces.

01:00:30.020 | - So it's funny that black's queen has been hanging

01:00:32.540 | for like three moves now,

01:00:33.920 | and white still can't do anything about it.

01:00:35.660 | - Yeah, so rook puts the king in check.

01:00:37.900 | - Yep. - The king runs.

01:00:40.220 | - And then, again, we leave the queen hanging,

01:00:44.020 | and you develop a piece,

01:00:45.180 | the slight squared bishop, that's so important,

01:00:46.900 | and you're once again threatening checkmate on G2.

01:00:50.060 | - And then bishops coming to--

01:00:53.180 | - Yeah, once again, the queen hanging.

01:00:55.900 | - I mean, the game is just so beautiful,

01:00:57.520 | the amount of calculation Hikaru put into this position.

01:01:02.520 | - It just feels like so much is in danger.

01:01:04.340 | - Right. - It's so interesting.

01:01:05.940 | And knight takes what, a pawns.

01:01:09.820 | - So now his queen is attacked twice,

01:01:12.180 | and he doesn't care.

01:01:13.940 | He takes the bishop,

01:01:14.860 | and he's still threatening the checkmate on G2.

01:01:17.780 | - And then the queen takes the bishop.

01:01:21.180 | - Yep, so now he's defending against G2,

01:01:24.340 | and black just goes and grabs some material back here.

01:01:29.700 | - So here, black is already winning.

01:01:32.340 | - Well, he ends up winning a knight here,

01:01:34.180 | because black had to be so much on the defensive.

01:01:37.200 | - He's just taking pieces.

01:01:39.380 | - Yeah, I mean, at this point,

01:01:40.420 | you're up two whole pieces,

01:01:41.860 | so you would-- - Yeah, exactly.

01:01:44.260 | - But--

01:01:45.100 | - And queen. - Queen.

01:01:48.320 | And then you take, and then the rook takes,

01:01:53.220 | and there's not as much of an attack on the king anymore,

01:01:56.700 | but Hikaru is up a knight here, which is GG.

01:02:01.700 | - Yeah, what's the correct way of saying that?

01:02:04.780 | 'Cause I played Demis Asabas, I played him in chess,

01:02:08.980 | and then I quickly realized,

01:02:11.820 | like from his facial expressions,

01:02:13.380 | that I should've stopped playing.

01:02:16.500 | - Oh. - It was like,

01:02:17.780 | it's already set. - Yeah, when it's--

01:02:19.940 | - And then he's like, "This is a good time to give up."

01:02:24.660 | - Right. - "You're not gonna get

01:02:25.780 | "the checkmate," where, like, he could see,

01:02:28.980 | the checkmate is five or seven moves away or something.

01:02:32.420 | And what's the play?

01:02:34.780 | - Usually, you have to resign if you're in a position,

01:02:38.700 | or you should, through chess etiquette,

01:02:41.460 | resign when you're in a position where your opponent

01:02:44.820 | is definitely gonna win out of respect,

01:02:46.700 | like if you're a piece down.

01:02:48.540 | And obviously, all top grandmasters do that.

01:02:51.660 | The only people who don't do that is kids,

01:02:53.940 | 'cause their coaches-- - They love to play

01:02:55.020 | 'til the checkmate. - Their coaches always tell

01:02:56.420 | them never resign, and they'll be in hopelessly lost

01:02:59.380 | positions, playing against, like, two rooks, a king,

01:03:02.460 | and they only have their sole king,

01:03:03.980 | but they're still playing on.

01:03:05.820 | So that's a position where it's obvious they can't win.

01:03:08.020 | - 'Cause the kids might make errors.

01:03:09.620 | - Yeah, exactly. - And so might as well,

01:03:11.300 | that was the interesting thing about, I think,

01:03:13.780 | game six of the previous World Championship with Magnus.

01:03:16.780 | - Was it the one where he beat Neb?

01:03:18.420 | - Yeah, the first time he beat him, where it was like,

01:03:22.300 | he said that, I don't know how often you come across

01:03:26.020 | this kind of situation, he said,

01:03:27.020 | "The engines predict a draw, but that doesn't mean

01:03:32.020 | "that it's going to be a draw."

01:03:33.380 | So you play on, hoping that you take a person into,

01:03:38.380 | I mean, this is, I guess, an endgame thing.

01:03:40.500 | You take them into deep water and they make

01:03:42.460 | a positional mistake or something.

01:03:43.860 | I don't know when, like, he, from his gut,

01:03:47.020 | knows that this is supposed to be a draw,

01:03:48.740 | but he still plays on.

01:03:50.060 | - Yeah, I mean, that is one where it could theoretically

01:03:53.980 | be a draw, but it could be very hard to defend,

01:03:56.860 | 'cause it's a hard technique to know as a human.

01:03:59.700 | And especially in that game, I know that Neppo

01:04:02.820 | was also in time pressure, which makes it even harder.

01:04:05.660 | So in situations like that, you should always continue.

01:04:07.940 | It's more where an engine would give you something

01:04:10.220 | like plus 10 or something where it's not just clearly a win,

01:04:14.500 | but anybody would know how to win,

01:04:16.060 | and that's where you're usually supposed to resign.

01:04:18.860 | - So what do you find beautiful about this game?

01:04:20.820 | Is it the attacking chess and just the asymmetry of it?

01:04:25.820 | - It's the asymmetry, and it's the fact that this is

01:04:31.660 | the dream for the King's Indian, where you're able

01:04:34.900 | to get a beautiful attack, and there's also those two

01:04:38.100 | really nice sacrifices where Black just continuously

01:04:42.620 | kept putting pressure on White's King to the point

01:04:45.060 | where he was able to win material.

01:04:47.140 | And the best part of it is that if the attack

01:04:49.700 | didn't work out, Black would have been completely lost.

01:04:52.460 | - How often does that happen, by the way?

01:04:54.980 | Like as an attacking player, how often do you put yourself

01:04:58.060 | in the position of like, I'm screwed unless this works out?

01:05:01.820 | - In online chess, more than I should,

01:05:04.100 | and it's usually when I sacrifice, I know it's either

01:05:06.640 | gonna work or I'm lost.

01:05:08.480 | And those are the most fun positions to play, usually.

01:05:13.540 | - But in tournaments, if you're doing a sacrifice,

01:05:15.940 | you're playing it with 100% confidence,

01:05:18.660 | 'cause you're taking the time to calculate it.

01:05:20.580 | But yeah, when you have three minutes, you don't have time,

01:05:22.940 | so you take a whim and you follow your intuition,

01:05:25.300 | and you find out later.

01:05:27.020 | - Or you're very confident it'll work,

01:05:29.380 | and you haven't calculated all the way until the end,

01:05:31.540 | but you've calculated to the point where you have enough

01:05:34.400 | in exchange for the stack, and you think you could

01:05:36.300 | play that position.

01:05:37.860 | - How do you train chess these days?

01:05:40.820 | Do you practice, do you do deliberate practice?

01:05:45.780 | I mean, you're in this tough position because you're also

01:05:48.020 | a creator, an educator, an entertainer,

01:05:50.620 | so do you try to put in time of like daily practice?

01:05:54.680 | - I don't train chess anymore when I'm focusing on creating.

01:06:00.340 | I do if I'm preparing for a tournament,

01:06:02.920 | but back in the day, I would train very tournament,

01:06:05.580 | very seriously for tournaments,

01:06:07.140 | and the way it would work is I'd do opening preparation

01:06:10.820 | for a specific tournament, because that's when

01:06:12.940 | you really need to have those lines memorized,

01:06:15.460 | and you could also prepare for specific opponents,

01:06:17.740 | and I would do tactics to make sure I stay sharp.

01:06:20.800 | So those are the two things I would do every single day

01:06:23.080 | for a tournament, and then mix up the rest

01:06:25.060 | with like maybe some end games,

01:06:26.380 | maybe some positional chess.

01:06:28.020 | - So what does tactics preparation look like?

01:06:30.660 | Do you do like a puzzle, like a random puzzle thing?

01:06:34.820 | - Yeah, I would just train puzzles

01:06:36.740 | for at least like 30 to 60 minutes, or books,

01:06:39.740 | and sometimes you were, and there's different kinds

01:06:42.160 | of puzzles, one you could train for pattern recognition,

01:06:44.740 | where you're supposed to go through them very quickly,

01:06:46.860 | and that's just so that when you're playing the game,

01:06:48.620 | if your mind is tired, it's still keeping track of things

01:06:51.900 | a little bit more easily, and then there's where

01:06:54.640 | you're practicing your combination,

01:06:56.100 | and those sometimes take like 20 minutes to find,

01:06:58.380 | 'cause you have to just calculate a lot,

01:07:00.540 | and it's more like making sure that you've trained

01:07:02.440 | with that muscle, but Andrea's actually very good

01:07:04.880 | at finding ways to balance and still study

01:07:08.020 | while also doing content.

01:07:09.320 | - Yeah, so what, you're able to do both?

01:07:11.640 | - That's the hard thing.

01:07:12.660 | I was getting very irritated with content,

01:07:14.760 | because I'm very competitive, and I don't like playing chess

01:07:17.840 | if I'm losing, and if you're talking and entertaining,

01:07:20.240 | you're gonna be losing more games than winning.

01:07:22.540 | So then I started doing more training streams,

01:07:24.800 | where I'd bring on my coach, and one of the things

01:07:28.080 | that I wanted to add to Alex's training repertoire,

01:07:30.580 | so I would do daily puzzles every time I'm streaming,

01:07:34.760 | which helped me a lot, even if it's like,

01:07:37.600 | there's this thing on chess.com called Puzzle Rush,

01:07:40.460 | where you have three minutes, and you just do

01:07:42.160 | puzzle after puzzle, where they get incrementally harder,

01:07:45.560 | and it's just a really good way to build

01:07:47.280 | your pattern recognition, especially when you're rusty.

01:07:49.780 | So I would do that 'til I hit a high score,

01:07:51.520 | and I wouldn't play any blitz until I hit the score

01:07:53.840 | that I want, but that's kind of more like

01:07:56.040 | the fun part of chess studying.

01:07:59.000 | The very important one is actually analyzing

01:08:01.820 | your losses in your tournament games,

01:08:04.500 | and first you sit and you look through your mistake yourself

01:08:07.560 | and try to see if you can find the better moves,

01:08:10.120 | and then that's when you would check over

01:08:11.760 | with the computer to see if you're right.

01:08:13.900 | So game analysis is also very important, which I try to do.

01:08:16.800 | - I remember to give a shout out, I listened to a couple

01:08:19.000 | of episodes of the Perpetual Chess podcast,

01:08:22.480 | which is pretty good, but whatever I listened to,

01:08:26.320 | I remember the, it's, I think they really focus on

01:08:30.520 | like teaching people--

01:08:34.120 | - How to train.

01:08:35.080 | - Yeah, how to play, how to train, all that kind of stuff.

01:08:37.960 | They do like, yeah, I'm looking now, adult improver.

01:08:41.640 | So basically, like how do regular noobs get better at chess?

01:08:46.640 | One of the things that, one of the person that said,

01:08:50.060 | I think he was the grandmaster, but he said,

01:08:52.880 | to maximize the amount of time you spend every day

01:08:55.200 | of like, basically, as you were saying, like suffering.

01:08:58.320 | So like, you, it's not about the, like,

01:09:01.560 | you should be thinking, you should be doing calculating.

01:09:04.680 | So it's the opposite of what Magnus said,

01:09:06.280 | like you should be doing a lot of time.

01:09:08.600 | It doesn't matter what the puzzle is

01:09:10.220 | or whatever the hell you're doing,

01:09:11.720 | but you should be like doing that difficult calculation.

01:09:14.740 | That's how you get better.

01:09:15.720 | - Yeah, it really depends what you're training,

01:09:17.480 | 'cause I used to think the same,

01:09:18.800 | but it depends what your weaker at,

01:09:20.360 | 'cause if you're doing the really difficult puzzles,

01:09:22.080 | you're training for like visualization

01:09:24.320 | and calculating more moves ahead than you typically would,

01:09:27.440 | which maybe you wouldn't get into that

01:09:29.280 | as often in a regular game,

01:09:31.040 | because typically you run into like three to four tactics,

01:09:33.800 | which are actually the easier and more fun ones to solve.

01:09:37.720 | So it really depends.

01:09:39.280 | - And on top of that, as a hobbyist,

01:09:41.600 | your motivation is very different

01:09:43.720 | than when you're playing from a young age

01:09:45.560 | and have pretty high competitive ambition.

01:09:48.880 | And a lot of people who are new to chess,

01:09:52.340 | you could basically work on anything

01:09:54.040 | and still improve.

01:09:55.560 | So if you're focusing on something you like,

01:09:58.360 | you're probably gonna stick to it more

01:09:59.920 | and be more consistent,

01:10:01.080 | which I think is more helpful long-term.

01:10:03.520 | - What was the most embarrassing loss of your career?

01:10:08.360 | - I had so many flashbacks,

01:10:09.880 | but I'm so glad it's a question for Andrea.

01:10:12.400 | - I like that you specified.

01:10:14.400 | You know, it's funny 'cause-

01:10:15.640 | (laughing)

01:10:17.520 | - I mean, because you said you're so competitive

01:10:19.480 | and like I could tell just even from the way you said it,

01:10:22.600 | like you hate losing.

01:10:24.280 | - Yeah, I mean, that was the reason I hated chess

01:10:27.560 | in high school 'cause it always be like,

01:10:29.880 | but okay, there's many traumatizing losses

01:10:32.480 | where it's like you're top three,

01:10:33.800 | you're running for first,

01:10:34.880 | and then you throw a game you shouldn't.

01:10:36.360 | But, and this shouldn't hurt my ego as much as it does,

01:10:40.300 | but it's always kids,

01:10:42.280 | or when I was a high school girl,

01:10:44.000 | it's the younger boys who are really cocky.

01:10:46.560 | And when they win, they start rubbing it in your face

01:10:48.720 | and they're yawning and looking around

01:10:50.440 | when like 90% of the game you were destroying them

01:10:53.560 | and you had this one tiny mistake

01:10:55.040 | and now their ego's huge.

01:10:57.000 | But I'll never forget,

01:10:57.980 | I was playing like for a chess scholarship

01:11:01.400 | and it was tiebreaker for first.

01:11:04.280 | And I think I lost to a 12 year old girl

01:11:06.160 | who couldn't even use the scholarship,

01:11:08.160 | but she beat me in one first place

01:11:09.640 | and she got some other prize.

01:11:11.500 | So yeah, I was losing to that little girl

01:11:13.960 | who's literally like 2,300 now, so makes sense.

01:11:17.480 | - Right, you keep telling yourself that.

01:11:18.840 | What do you think,

01:11:20.960 | do you think Gaspar was feeling that

01:11:22.380 | when he was playing 13 year old Magnus?

01:11:24.560 | Like, why?

01:11:26.080 | - As much as it's a beauty of the sport

01:11:28.680 | that any age can be brilliant,

01:11:30.800 | any demographic, anything,

01:11:33.080 | I feel like when you're adults

01:11:34.440 | and you're paired against a kid,

01:11:36.280 | it's just hard not to let it get to you.

01:11:38.760 | And it depends, maybe if they're a really sweet kid,

01:11:40.880 | but most times I play kids, they're just really arrogant.

01:11:43.920 | And I don't think they do it intentionally

01:11:45.840 | 'cause they're kids.

01:11:46.680 | - I mean, there is a certain etiquette thing

01:11:48.640 | like you said, yawning and in general.

01:11:50.920 | - You're kids, there's no etiquette.

01:11:53.600 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:11:54.440 | - They don't care.

01:11:55.840 | - Yeah, the kids traumatized me too.

01:11:57.560 | I was playing in Vegas and it was not even my opponent,

01:12:01.640 | it was the board next to me.

01:12:03.440 | And the kid was at least 10 years old,

01:12:06.760 | 12 max, and he was playing against an adult

01:12:08.640 | and he takes out his hand

01:12:10.160 | and he starts doing a fake phone

01:12:12.240 | to which the kid sitting across diagonally

01:12:15.440 | picks up their banana and starts talking

01:12:17.880 | like it's a phone and they're just mouthing words

01:12:19.920 | while their two adult opponents

01:12:21.680 | are thinking intensely at the game.

01:12:23.400 | And then I see the adult look up, look at the kid

01:12:26.680 | just making banana phone and the despair in his eyes

01:12:29.480 | as he sighs.

01:12:31.120 | - Yeah, and they're not even doing it for trash talk.

01:12:33.320 | - No, no, no, they're just bored kids.

01:12:35.640 | - Yes, exactly.

01:12:36.960 | - Well, what was the, 'cause you play a bunch of people

01:12:39.680 | for your channel, what was the most memorable?

01:12:43.520 | What's the most fun, most intense?

01:12:46.120 | There's a bunch of fun ones.

01:12:47.100 | You've played kids before, some trash talking kids.

01:12:50.680 | - That sounds great.

01:12:52.160 | They trash talk kids.

01:12:53.840 | - Yeah.

01:12:54.680 | - Nothing like losing to a 12 year old

01:12:56.720 | who then starts doing a Fortnite dance.

01:12:59.080 | - Yeah, so that actually happened?

01:13:01.520 | - That did happen.

01:13:02.680 | He is a very young master.

01:13:05.600 | I think he became master when he was like nine years old

01:13:07.680 | or something and he's very good at chess

01:13:10.200 | and doing a lot of training,

01:13:11.520 | but he's also incredibly good at trash talking

01:13:13.720 | and he beat me one game and he stood up

01:13:15.760 | and he started doing the Fortnite dance.

01:13:17.760 | So, you gotta just swallow your pride in those moments.

01:13:22.420 | - What is that culture of street chess players?

01:13:25.300 | It seems pretty interesting.

01:13:27.520 | I don't know, that seems to be celebrating

01:13:30.540 | the beauty of the game.

01:13:31.620 | It's the trash talking, but also having fun with it,

01:13:34.380 | but also taking it seriously.

01:13:36.300 | And you've done a few of those.

01:13:37.940 | Did you go to New York?

01:13:39.620 | - Yeah, in Union Square Park in Washington Square.

01:13:42.300 | - What was that like?

01:13:43.900 | - It's such a unique place.

01:13:46.000 | I haven't seen it anywhere else in the US

01:13:48.760 | where people are just professional chess hustlers,

01:13:52.680 | even if they're not necessarily a top player,

01:13:55.800 | but they play chess every single day.

01:13:58.120 | And so many of them learn chess by themselves

01:14:01.240 | and never had a professional coach,

01:14:03.160 | so they are quite good at it.

01:14:05.000 | They're also very tight knit.

01:14:06.780 | They all know each other and it's a very social thing

01:14:09.360 | where you're not just playing chess,

01:14:11.320 | it's the experience of getting to know this person

01:14:13.540 | who's very much a personality and they talk to you.

01:14:16.400 | They could either give you tips

01:14:18.100 | or they could be really chatty and talk to you during.

01:14:20.320 | So it's a chess experience rather than just playing a game.

01:14:24.040 | - Do you tell them what your rating is

01:14:26.160 | or do you just let people,

01:14:27.560 | both ways, do you discover how good the person actually is?

01:14:32.040 | - Initially I loved going and not telling people my rating

01:14:35.600 | and just surprising them and winning games,

01:14:39.060 | but now we've gone so many times that they just know us,

01:14:41.740 | so we can't get away with it anymore.

01:14:43.360 | - One time, actually I don't know if I should share this,

01:14:46.160 | but one time we dressed up as grandmothers

01:14:49.200 | and we had prosthetics on our face

01:14:51.700 | and I think they still recognized us.

01:14:54.300 | - Yeah, it's probably the, there's other components,

01:14:56.740 | like probably the trash talk and all that kind of stuff.

01:14:58.660 | - Actually, no, it was funny.

01:15:00.260 | We were talking like grandmothers,

01:15:01.600 | but it was the way I held.

01:15:03.560 | It was the way I held.

01:15:04.400 | - Grandmother talk like, back in my day.

01:15:07.040 | - You don't wanna hear that, you know who it is.

01:15:07.880 | Ask Blitz for a bonbon if you want some bonbon.

01:15:10.440 | - We're not bringing this back.

01:15:12.000 | - Okay, what were your names?

01:15:13.160 | - Don't read the code names.

01:15:14.160 | - Oh my God.

01:15:15.000 | - I think it was Edna.

01:15:16.320 | - Edna, and I had a really, I can't remember the other one,

01:15:20.520 | but it was embarrassing because we were walking so slowly

01:15:23.440 | and Andrea dropped her cane or something at one point

01:15:25.680 | and then people in the park came to help her

01:15:27.440 | and we felt so embarrassed.

01:15:28.880 | - And I'm like, my bonbons.

01:15:31.240 | But yeah, it was funny 'cause they didn't know it was us

01:15:33.280 | until he saw the way I reached for my pawn

01:15:35.680 | and he said, "The way you held your pawn,

01:15:37.240 | "I knew it was you."

01:15:38.560 | It was like such a sneak thing.

01:15:40.800 | That was what blew the grandma cover.

01:15:43.480 | - Yeah, do you have a style of how you play physically?

01:15:47.120 | Is that recognizable?

01:15:47.960 | - I didn't think we did until grandma went to play chess.

01:15:51.000 | - Yeah, I've never thought about that.

01:15:53.120 | - Yeah, I think our style is just trash talking now.

01:15:55.720 | If you're talking about style on YouTube and Twitch,

01:16:01.840 | we definitely have a distinctive style.

01:16:03.800 | - What's that?

01:16:04.640 | What's your distinctive?

01:16:05.480 | - Just talking shit.

01:16:06.320 | - Just talking shit?

01:16:07.160 | - Yes, but not going too far.

01:16:09.280 | - No, no, definitely.

01:16:10.240 | That's definitely going to,

01:16:12.240 | if it's us two against each other.

01:16:14.120 | - Oh, we trash talk each other so hard.

01:16:16.760 | - So brutally.

01:16:17.600 | - And I love looking at Andrea

01:16:18.800 | and watching her little nose scrunch up as she's annoyed

01:16:21.880 | and the satisfaction I get when that happens.

01:16:24.840 | - How many times do you play against each other

01:16:26.840 | online publicly?

01:16:28.360 | I think I've seen a couple of games.

01:16:29.960 | - We've played a lot of times.

01:16:31.200 | We try not to do it too often 'cause it's repetitive,

01:16:33.440 | but every now and then when we haven't done it for a while,

01:16:35.920 | we'll go at it again.

01:16:37.000 | - What do you mean repetitive?

01:16:37.840 | Is that implied trash talk right there?

01:16:40.360 | - No, it's just, we play similar openings.

01:16:42.800 | So you just start seeing the same position too often.

01:16:45.640 | - Every time.

01:16:46.480 | - And Andrea's really good at opening.

01:16:48.240 | So I just start playing bad openings

01:16:50.080 | to get her out of her preparation.

01:16:51.880 | 'Cause I don't like opening theory very much.

01:16:53.680 | I just like playing the game

01:16:54.920 | and getting into middle games and end games.

01:16:57.320 | - But yeah, typically the only time we're playing each other

01:16:59.560 | is when we're setting up in the park

01:17:01.040 | and we don't have opponents yet and we need content.

01:17:04.000 | So we just play each other until people show up.

01:17:05.960 | - But we always put stakes on the line,

01:17:07.760 | which makes it very interesting.

01:17:09.200 | 'Cause otherwise it wouldn't be fun to play each other

01:17:10.960 | if there's no stakes.

01:17:12.080 | - Where's the most fun place you've played?

01:17:14.320 | Is it New York?

01:17:15.400 | - I think so.

01:17:16.240 | And it was actually when we set up in Times Square one night,

01:17:19.680 | we just brought a table with us and chess.

01:17:22.680 | And it's not even where people usually play chess,

01:17:25.240 | but it was so lively.

01:17:27.640 | There were all of the lights out

01:17:28.960 | and so many people just kept stopping by to play chess.

01:17:31.560 | And it was really one of my favorite streams.

01:17:33.760 | - Just the opposite of like the classical chess world.

01:17:36.760 | It's super loud.

01:17:37.680 | There's music, there's cars,

01:17:39.000 | there's street dancers,

01:17:40.200 | even some naked people walking around

01:17:42.360 | who we had to be careful not to get banned.

01:17:44.480 | But I honestly really like the chaotic environments

01:17:47.160 | for chess games.

01:17:48.360 | 'Cause I think it's a good way to break more

01:17:49.880 | into the mainstream culture and make it entertaining

01:17:52.200 | and appealing to anyone who doesn't know anything

01:17:53.960 | about chess.

01:17:55.320 | So that's what I really like.

01:17:56.160 | - And also in an authentic way,

01:17:57.600 | because it's what we really like about chess

01:17:59.960 | when you're just enjoying the game,

01:18:01.480 | but also the atmosphere

01:18:03.240 | and the people who you're playing with.

01:18:05.320 | And that's one of the things that I think you see less

01:18:07.800 | when you're just thinking of chess as a competitive thing.

01:18:10.840 | - You've, you mentioned a few other games,

01:18:14.440 | like the Bobby Fischer games,

01:18:16.160 | the Canada's match,

01:18:17.200 | the game of the century,

01:18:19.200 | which I feel like is a weird game

01:18:21.280 | to call the game of the century

01:18:22.440 | when there's still like a few decades left in the century.

01:18:24.880 | But yeah.

01:18:25.720 | - I mean, it wasn't an official thing.

01:18:27.000 | It was just the chess journalist.

01:18:27.840 | - It's just like made on a chess article.

01:18:30.000 | - But it's stuck if you look on Wikipedia.

01:18:32.960 | This is all I do research wise.

01:18:36.120 | - Because there's, so that particular one

01:18:38.640 | was a 13 year old Fischer

01:18:41.520 | and he did a queen sacrifice.

01:18:43.960 | I wonder, there's that movie searching for Bobby Fischer.

01:18:47.240 | Was that related?

01:18:48.240 | 'Cause didn't they have a young,

01:18:50.480 | somebody who's supposed to be kind of like Bobby Fischer

01:18:52.680 | played by Josh Waitzkin.

01:18:54.480 | - Yeah, I think he ended up being an international master.

01:18:57.520 | It wasn't based on Bobby Fischer,

01:18:59.040 | it was based on another player,

01:19:00.240 | but I liked how they told it through the lens

01:19:02.560 | of being inspired by Bobby Fischer.

01:19:04.760 | - Do you remember that game?

01:19:05.880 | Like why do you think it was dubbed the game of the century?

01:19:08.160 | It was just journalists being like.

01:19:10.040 | - I think part of it was the atmosphere

01:19:12.720 | where you have the US junior champion

01:19:15.040 | who's this 13 year old nobody.

01:19:17.200 | And it's the first time he's playing

01:19:19.440 | in a very competitive landscape

01:19:21.200 | against some of the top American players.

01:19:23.800 | And he goes up against an international master.

01:19:26.800 | So somebody who's a lot stronger than he is,

01:19:29.560 | who's played in Olympiads for the American team.

01:19:32.800 | He's having a bad tournament,

01:19:34.520 | but then he has this one game

01:19:36.200 | where he just shows off his tactical prowess

01:19:39.960 | and plays incredibly well.

01:19:41.600 | And I don't know if this is true,

01:19:43.400 | but in the paper clippings of it,

01:19:44.920 | they'd say things like grandmasters were by the board

01:19:47.160 | and they would say things like,

01:19:48.640 | oh, Bobby is lost in this position.

01:19:51.040 | What is he doing?

01:19:51.880 | But there's this 13 year old kid

01:19:53.160 | who's just playing incredibly well.

01:19:55.080 | And then that also happened before

01:19:57.320 | Bobby's started really rapidly improving at chess.

01:20:01.120 | Not that people knew that,

01:20:02.160 | but he kind of seemed like a rising star.

01:20:03.880 | So I think the game was beautiful,

01:20:05.280 | but I also think the idea of a 13 year old kid

01:20:08.440 | coming out from nowhere

01:20:09.520 | and beating a top American player was very fascinating.

01:20:12.400 | - And there was aggressive chess

01:20:13.680 | and it was interesting ideas.

01:20:15.840 | - Yep.

01:20:16.960 | - Yeah, taking big risks.

01:20:18.080 | It's cool to see a 13 year old do that.

01:20:19.920 | - Yeah.

01:20:21.280 | - What about the,

01:20:22.560 | you mentioned that his match against Mark Taimano

01:20:27.280 | from their 71 candidates match was interesting in some way.

01:20:31.000 | Why is it interesting to you?

01:20:33.760 | Move 45.

01:20:35.200 | I'm looking at some notes.

01:20:36.920 | - This is with the Bishop E3.

01:20:38.880 | I think I know which one you're talking about.

01:20:41.160 | It's, I wouldn't say,

01:20:43.760 | a lot of these games on these lists,

01:20:45.640 | I think are really great combinations

01:20:48.080 | that when tactics come into play,

01:20:50.760 | which is what we were talking about,

01:20:52.320 | but they're very good at exemplifying lessons.

01:20:56.000 | This is why you study famous games.

01:20:58.320 | So you can apply these lessons to your own games.

01:21:00.880 | And I think the main takeaway for this one was

01:21:03.400 | they were punishing their opponent from steering away

01:21:05.880 | from opening principles,

01:21:07.560 | which is something that we learned a little earlier,

01:21:11.200 | where he delayed the development of his king

01:21:14.120 | and put his queen out a little bit too exposed.

01:21:17.160 | So Bobby Fischer immediately punished that.

01:21:19.920 | And then there was just like a beautiful combination

01:21:22.320 | where it was like a 12 in a row perfect moves,

01:21:25.840 | which was a tactic, just winning the game.

01:21:27.720 | But it only came from punishing those mistakes.

01:21:30.400 | - The mistake being bringing the queen out?

01:21:32.400 | - Bringing the queen out and yeah,

01:21:33.720 | not castling your king right away.

01:21:35.840 | And these were just like opening principles

01:21:37.920 | that now they're written in books,

01:21:39.320 | but for books you would study these principles

01:21:42.360 | by studying games.

01:21:43.480 | - And also I'm looking at some notes,

01:21:48.120 | his dominance during the candidates' turn

01:21:50.120 | was unprecedented.

01:21:52.160 | He swept two top grandmasters.

01:21:54.560 | I mean, that guy's meteoric rise is incredible.

01:21:57.640 | Sad that I think at whatever, in his 20s,

01:22:01.400 | he then quit chess.

01:22:03.280 | One has to wonder where he could have gone.

01:22:07.200 | - Yeah, it is sad that we lost such a brilliant mind

01:22:11.200 | so early on.

01:22:12.040 | And it's also sad, I think,

01:22:13.360 | kind of what ended up happening in his life

01:22:15.720 | and the slowly going crazier.

01:22:18.120 | - Is there some aspect of chess

01:22:19.520 | that opens the door to crazy?

01:22:22.440 | Like how challenging it is on you,

01:22:26.640 | the stress, the anxiety of it, the--

01:22:29.800 | - Isolation and being alone.

01:22:31.800 | - Yeah, 'cause it's a very lonely sport.

01:22:33.760 | - It is, even to you guys, since you both play it,

01:22:36.800 | it's still lonely, the experience of it?

01:22:38.960 | - It was when I was competing a lot.

01:22:40.960 | I think the crazy part of it for me

01:22:43.480 | was how obsessed you can get about a board game

01:22:47.440 | where you're optimizing your entire life

01:22:50.080 | to beat another person at pushing wooden pieces

01:22:53.120 | across a board and it doesn't necessarily translate

01:22:55.880 | to other things.

01:22:57.080 | And the fact that so many people

01:22:58.920 | spend so much of their life on it,

01:23:01.080 | but you can also spend so much of your life

01:23:02.920 | because it's so deep and so interesting.

01:23:05.660 | And I mean, I've definitely experienced moments

01:23:09.640 | where I didn't want to do anything but chess.

01:23:13.480 | And I had that before I went to college

01:23:16.240 | where I just wanted to take a gap year and focus on chess

01:23:18.640 | because I went to high school, we moved a lot,

01:23:21.760 | there was always other things going on.

01:23:23.160 | So I felt like I could never really focus on chess.

01:23:26.760 | And the one time I could by taking a gap year,

01:23:29.640 | I ended up not doing, because my parents really wanted me

01:23:32.040 | to go to university right away.

01:23:33.760 | But I think maybe if I had taken that gap year,

01:23:36.000 | I don't know if I would have gone back to school.

01:23:37.640 | So maybe it wasn't a bad thing.

01:23:39.240 | - I also say that's pretty universal.

01:23:40.840 | I think if you want to be the best at anything you do

01:23:43.200 | or any sport, you have to be that level of obsessed.

01:23:45.360 | So I don't know if that's only chess.

01:23:47.760 | - Well, some things, some obsessions are more transferable

01:23:50.920 | to a balanced social life.

01:23:53.800 | - That is true. - Like healthy development.

01:23:55.400 | - Yeah, chess is a lot less social than most other sports.

01:23:58.600 | - Yeah, there's something deeply isolating about this game.

01:24:02.040 | I mean, the great chess players I've met,

01:24:03.720 | I mean, it's really competitive too.

01:24:07.960 | And there's something that you're almost nonstop

01:24:12.960 | paranoid about blundering at every level.

01:24:18.880 | And that develops a person who's really anxious

01:24:21.520 | about losing versus someone who deeply enjoys perfection

01:24:26.280 | or winning and so on.

01:24:27.840 | It's just this constant paranoia about losing.

01:24:30.280 | Maybe I'm misinterpreting it,

01:24:31.720 | but that creates a huge amount of stress

01:24:36.720 | over thousands of games, especially in a young person.

01:24:41.960 | - And that blundering is such a painful experience

01:24:45.760 | because you could be playing a game

01:24:47.880 | that you've played for five, six hours,

01:24:49.900 | and you have one lapse in focus and you blunder

01:24:53.960 | and you throw the entire game away.

01:24:55.600 | And sometimes not just the entire game,

01:24:57.240 | but the entire tournament.

01:24:58.240 | Now you can't place or do anything anymore.

01:25:00.520 | So you just feel those mistakes so strongly.

01:25:03.920 | - Yeah, there's no one to blame but yourself.

01:25:07.080 | - Are you guys hard on yourself?

01:25:09.200 | Have you been about losing?

01:25:11.400 | Like before you became super famous for streaming,

01:25:14.600 | where you could be like, well, fuck this, at least I can.

01:25:17.960 | - So I was really hard on myself

01:25:20.200 | and I went to play a tournament in Canada

01:25:22.300 | to try to qualify for the Olympiad team.

01:25:25.420 | And I was like, well, I'm an adult now.

01:25:28.820 | I'm not gonna feel emotional if I lose.

01:25:31.640 | And then I got there on the first day.

01:25:34.140 | I think I was ranked like fourth in Canada for females.

01:25:38.200 | - How long ago was this?

01:25:40.740 | - This was like earlier in the year, actually.

01:25:44.160 | And I go and I lose to somebody lower rated

01:25:47.120 | on the first day.

01:25:48.520 | And I think it was because I had blundered.

01:25:50.520 | And I went back to my room and I was like,

01:25:52.240 | I am not an adult.

01:25:53.400 | I'm not eating, I'm not leaving this room.

01:25:55.440 | I feel terrible and I know I shouldn't,

01:25:57.540 | but it just cuts so deep.

01:26:00.080 | And then I actually ended up qualifying

01:26:02.280 | for the Olympiad team, but I didn't wanna play

01:26:04.780 | 'cause I didn't have enough time to train

01:26:06.400 | and the losses are so painful.

01:26:08.120 | I was like, it's not worth it.

01:26:09.960 | - Yeah, in high school and growing up,

01:26:12.560 | I just remember weekends.

01:26:14.280 | And I think being competitive in any sport,

01:26:16.680 | again, probably people relate to this,

01:26:18.200 | but just spending weekends crying

01:26:20.040 | and even like Alex said, punishing yourself

01:26:22.120 | 'cause you're disappointed in yourself

01:26:23.920 | 'cause you fight so hard and you prepare and you study

01:26:26.360 | and you're like, oh, yeah.

01:26:29.280 | But that's, once again, on the bright side though,

01:26:32.880 | when you're studying so hard and after a four hour game

01:26:37.160 | and you actually are on the opposite end and you win,

01:26:40.200 | you feel such a huge rush of dopamine and serotonin

01:26:43.880 | and you're on a high from the win.

01:26:45.340 | So there's also plus sides or you can turn this around.

01:26:47.720 | But yeah, like Alex said,

01:26:49.440 | like losing after preparing for something

01:26:51.960 | and fighting on hours and hours

01:26:53.440 | is the worst feeling in the world.

01:26:54.800 | - Did you ever get anything like that with martial arts?

01:26:58.240 | - Yeah, so wrestling.

01:27:00.000 | I wrestled all through high school and middle school.

01:27:02.400 | Definitely, so it's an individual sport.

01:27:03.800 | I did a lot of individual sport, tennis,

01:27:05.760 | those kinds of things.

01:27:07.200 | But I think even with wrestling and tennis,

01:27:09.720 | you're still on a team.

01:27:11.500 | You can still like, there's still a camaraderie there.

01:27:14.820 | I feel like with chess,

01:27:15.760 | especially you go on your own with the tournaments,

01:27:18.440 | like you really are alone.

01:27:20.760 | But I mean, I always personally just had

01:27:23.160 | like a very self-critical mind in general.

01:27:25.360 | I would not.

01:27:26.200 | This is one of the reasons I decided not to play chess

01:27:29.640 | because I think when I was really young,

01:27:32.480 | I met somebody who was able to play blindfold chess.

01:27:37.480 | They were teaching me.

01:27:39.200 | They were laying in there on the couch,

01:27:40.160 | trashed, drinking and smoking.

01:27:42.000 | (laughing)

01:27:42.840 | - Sounds like a Russian.

01:27:43.980 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:27:44.960 | They're now a faculty somewhere in the United States.

01:27:48.900 | I forget where, but he making jokes,

01:27:53.140 | talking to others and he would move the pieces.

01:27:55.940 | Like he would yell across the room.

01:27:58.460 | And I remember thinking that if a person is able to do that,

01:28:03.460 | then that kind of world you can live in inside your mind,

01:28:08.020 | that becomes the chessboard.

01:28:09.260 | To me, that meant like the chessboard is not just out here.

01:28:12.540 | It could be in here and you can create

01:28:15.520 | these beautiful patterns in your mind.

01:28:17.840 | I felt like I had such a strong pull towards that

01:28:22.840 | where I had to decide either I'm gonna dedicate everything

01:28:26.520 | to this or not.

01:28:28.420 | You can't do half-assed.

01:28:30.800 | And then that's when I decided to walk away from it

01:28:35.040 | because I had so much other beautiful things in my life.

01:28:37.320 | I love mathematics.

01:28:38.560 | I loved just everything was beautiful to me.

01:28:40.920 | I thought chess would pull me all in.

01:28:44.700 | And there was nothing like it, I think,

01:28:47.540 | in my whole life since then.

01:28:49.600 | I think it's such a dangerous addiction.

01:28:52.400 | It's such a beautiful addiction, but it's a dangerous one,

01:28:54.980 | depending on what your mind is like.

01:28:56.360 | - It reminds me of something I thought of

01:28:58.960 | before I stopped competing as much.

01:29:01.440 | And I'd look at people and think,

01:29:03.400 | imagine being so intelligent

01:29:06.220 | that you could become a grandmaster

01:29:07.840 | and yet only spending the rest of your life

01:29:10.200 | being a grandmaster.

01:29:11.600 | 'Cause it's one of those things

01:29:12.600 | where it does require a lot of mental power,

01:29:15.440 | but by doing chess, you're not gonna be able

01:29:17.740 | to explore other subjects deeply.

01:29:19.800 | - Yeah.

01:29:21.520 | - And not in a way that is bad necessarily,

01:29:24.080 | more an admiration and wondering what else could have been.

01:29:27.460 | Because I've just seen people get to these levels

01:29:29.800 | of obsession where it's all they wanna do.

01:29:31.760 | And they're grandmasters, but they're not even top players.

01:29:34.160 | So they're never gonna make a living out of it.

01:29:36.080 | They'll make like maybe 30, 40K a year max.

01:29:38.760 | They can't even focus on their competitive chess

01:29:40.760 | 'cause they have to supplement it by teaching

01:29:44.280 | and doing things they don't like.

01:29:45.440 | And it's just because of how strong

01:29:47.340 | of an obsession it can be.

01:29:48.840 | Because it truly is very intellectually rewarding.

01:29:52.600 | And I think that's what people are addicted to

01:29:54.400 | in the self-improvement,

01:29:55.360 | but you can get that from a lot of other things as well.

01:29:58.160 | - Well, I think for me,

01:29:59.000 | what I was inspired by that stuck with me

01:30:01.520 | is that a human being could be so good at one thing.

01:30:07.360 | But to me, that person on the college rink and so on,

01:30:11.880 | I assumed he was the best chess player in the world.

01:30:15.000 | Like to be able to play inside your head,

01:30:17.780 | it just felt like a feat that's incredible.

01:30:22.320 | And so I fell in love with the idea

01:30:24.440 | that I hope to be something like that in my life

01:30:26.640 | at something.

01:30:27.960 | It would be pretty cool to be really good at one thing.

01:30:31.320 | And like life in some sense is a search for the things

01:30:35.360 | that you could be that good at.

01:30:36.920 | I didn't even think about like how much money does it make

01:30:39.160 | or any of that.

01:30:40.400 | Is can I fall in love with something

01:30:42.560 | and make it a life pursuit where I can be damn good at it?

01:30:46.840 | And the being damn good at it is the source of enjoyment.

01:30:50.600 | Not to win because you wanna win a tournament

01:30:55.220 | or win because you just wanna be better than somebody else.

01:30:59.320 | No, it's for the beauty of the game itself

01:31:01.440 | or the beauty of the activity itself.

01:31:03.520 | And then you realize that that's one of the compelling

01:31:05.760 | things about chess.

01:31:06.600 | It is a game with rules and you can win.

01:31:10.480 | If you wanna be really damn good in some aspect of life

01:31:13.520 | like that, it's a harder and weirder pursuit.

01:31:18.520 | - Don't you feel like you kind of did that

01:31:21.000 | with computer science or AI related things?

01:31:24.160 | Like getting that level of damn good.

01:31:27.480 | - That's one of the cool things about AI and robotics

01:31:31.760 | or intellectual pursuits or scientific pursuits

01:31:34.120 | is you can spend until you're 80 doing it.

01:31:36.480 | So I'm in the early days of that.

01:31:37.960 | One of the reasons I came to Texas,

01:31:40.800 | one of the reasons I didn't wanna pursue an academic career

01:31:44.520 | at MIT is I wanna build a company.

01:31:49.040 | And so that's, I'm in the early days of that AI company.

01:31:52.760 | And so it's an open world to see if I'm actually

01:31:56.680 | going to be good at it.

01:31:57.640 | But the thing that's there that I've been cognizant

01:32:01.160 | of my whole life is that I have a passion for it.

01:32:03.120 | Something within me draws me to that thing.

01:32:06.600 | And you have to listen to that voice.

01:32:09.120 | So with chess, you're fucked unless you like early on

01:32:13.720 | are really training really hard.

01:32:16.200 | I think life is more forgiving.

01:32:18.020 | You can be world-class at a thing

01:32:22.560 | after making a lot of mistakes.

01:32:25.760 | And after spending the first few decades of your life

01:32:28.920 | doing something completely different.

01:32:30.600 | And chess, it's like an Olympic sport.

01:32:34.400 | There's no perfection is a requirement, is a necessity.

01:32:38.620 | What do you think is that pursuit for you?

01:32:42.400 | Like, why did you decide to stream?

01:32:44.440 | What drew you?

01:32:46.880 | - I like these questions now are really getting deep.

01:32:50.040 | - Yeah, this is like a therapy session.

01:32:51.800 | I mean, isn't it terrifying to be in front of a camera?

01:32:54.840 | - Well, it's terrifying to be in front of five cameras

01:32:58.200 | instead of six. - Corrections, six.

01:33:00.400 | - Six, okay.

01:33:01.240 | - It's more terrifying for me to try to remember

01:33:04.320 | if I actually turn them all.

01:33:06.240 | Like I mentioned to you off mic,

01:33:07.600 | I'm still suffering from a bit of PTSD

01:33:09.880 | after screwing up a recording of Magnus.

01:33:13.540 | He had to console me because that was the thing

01:33:19.120 | is I felt, okay, you wanna build robots.

01:33:23.680 | If you can't get a camera to even run correctly,

01:33:28.320 | how are you gonna do anything else in life?

01:33:30.600 | - Oh no, don't let it spiral like that.

01:33:33.080 | - It was spiraling hard and I was just laying there

01:33:36.240 | and just feeling sorry for myself.

01:33:38.640 | But I think that feeling, by the way,

01:33:40.760 | and the small tangent is really useful.

01:33:43.200 | I feel like a lot of growing happens when you feel shitty,

01:33:48.160 | as long as you can get out of it.

01:33:50.880 | Don't let it spiral indefinitely.

01:33:53.000 | But just feeling really, really shitty

01:33:55.600 | about everything in my life.

01:33:56.880 | I was having an existential crisis.

01:33:58.840 | How will I be able to do anything at all?

01:34:02.400 | You're a giant failure, all those kinds of negative voices.

01:34:05.960 | But I think I made some good decisions

01:34:08.840 | in the week after that.

01:34:11.320 | - Do you think you couldn't have made those decisions

01:34:13.160 | if you were less hard on yourself?

01:34:14.860 | - Me personally, no, I'm too lazy.

01:34:19.600 | - Okay, so you really need to be angry at yourself enough

01:34:23.040 | to go and do what you need to do.

01:34:24.480 | - It's not even angry, it's just upset

01:34:26.240 | of being self-critical.

01:34:27.520 | Also for me personally,

01:34:29.640 | because I don't have proclivities for depression,

01:34:33.420 | I have a lot more room to feel extremely shitty about myself.

01:34:39.720 | So if you're somebody that can get stuck in that place,

01:34:45.780 | like clinically depressed,

01:34:47.320 | you have to be really, really careful.

01:34:48.900 | You have to notice the triggers,

01:34:50.300 | you don't wanna get into that place.

01:34:51.760 | But for me, just looking empirically,

01:34:54.160 | feeling shitty has always been productive.

01:34:58.200 | Like it makes me long-term happier.

01:35:00.920 | Ultimately, it makes me more grateful to be alive,

01:35:04.200 | it helps me grow, all those kinds of things.

01:35:06.120 | So I kinda embrace it.

01:35:10.120 | Otherwise I feel like I will never do anything.

01:35:12.680 | I have to feel shitty,

01:35:13.700 | but that's not a thing I prescribe to others.

01:35:16.600 | There's a famous professor at MIT,

01:35:19.760 | his name is Marvin Minsky.

01:35:22.000 | And when he was giving advice to students,

01:35:25.400 | he said, "The secret to my success

01:35:28.560 | "was that I always hated everything I did in the past."

01:35:33.560 | So always sort of being self-critical

01:35:36.080 | about everything you've accomplished.

01:35:37.080 | Never really take a moment of gratitude.

01:35:39.880 | And I think for a lot of people that hear that,

01:35:41.640 | that's not good.

01:35:42.600 | You should take a pause and be grateful.

01:35:45.640 | But it really worked for him.

01:35:47.360 | So it's a choice you have to make.

01:35:50.600 | - Yeah, it reminds me of the quote,

01:35:51.680 | "Be happy but never satisfied."

01:35:54.480 | Where you can have a positive spin

01:35:57.600 | and still want to improve yourself.

01:35:59.600 | - But yeah, when did you decide

01:36:05.600 | to take a step in the spotlight?

01:36:08.220 | That terrifying spotlight of the internet?

01:36:11.160 | - It was actually my senior year of college,

01:36:14.280 | and I was really busy with work and school.

01:36:17.840 | And chess was kind of like this lost love.

01:36:21.000 | And the interesting thing is that

01:36:22.800 | the longer I don't play chess,

01:36:24.240 | the more I kind of miss playing it casually

01:36:26.320 | and enjoy it more.

01:36:27.360 | 'Cause then I start looking at it with fresh eyes.

01:36:30.040 | But I didn't have time to play tournaments.

01:36:32.000 | So I started streaming online

01:36:34.720 | because it was more social

01:36:35.920 | than just playing strangers on the internet

01:36:38.320 | without knowing anything about who they are.

01:36:41.120 | And I started slowly growing a community

01:36:44.400 | and got in touch with chess.com pretty quickly too.

01:36:47.480 | So then it was this hobby that I would do once a week,

01:36:50.120 | every Thursday at 8 p.m.

01:36:52.400 | And it was one of the things that brought me a lot of joy.

01:36:55.880 | And actually, speaking of depression,

01:36:58.800 | did struggle for at least 10 years of my life.

01:37:02.120 | And it was one of those things where chess and streaming

01:37:06.080 | was such a distraction and it brought me such great joy

01:37:09.840 | that I just kept doing it 'cause I really, really liked it.

01:37:13.760 | And then I was working on something that didn't pan out

01:37:18.120 | and decided to go and take a risk

01:37:20.040 | and just stream full time,

01:37:21.560 | which seemed a little bit weird at the moment.

01:37:26.560 | - Was that terrifying, that leap?

01:37:29.040 | - It was terrifying,

01:37:30.240 | but I had taken so many terrifying leaps in the past.

01:37:33.360 | And the last two hadn't worked out,

01:37:36.600 | but I was like, "Well, I'll get it eventually." (laughs)

01:37:39.480 | So somehow having failed before

01:37:42.120 | and going through failure and knowing that I'll be okay

01:37:45.000 | made me more likely to just try something

01:37:48.360 | that was a very, very weird job.

01:37:50.360 | - Goodbye, camera.

01:37:52.280 | - I saw it die.

01:37:53.160 | - Yeah, the camera, we don't need it.

01:37:55.840 | But one of the cameras died.

01:37:56.680 | - Luckily, we have another five.

01:37:58.640 | - Yeah, I know.

01:37:59.480 | - I was like, "This is where, this triggers the spiral.

01:38:02.040 | "Alexa's gonna go to the aid ofstead now."

01:38:04.200 | - It's still somehow awake.

01:38:09.240 | - Is there advice you can give

01:38:10.440 | about the dark places you've gone in your mind,

01:38:13.920 | the depression you suffered from,

01:38:15.080 | how to get out from your own story?

01:38:18.560 | - Whenever I go to those really dark places,

01:38:21.480 | the scariest thing is that it feels like

01:38:24.720 | I will never get rid of this feeling,

01:38:27.520 | and it is very overwhelming.

01:38:29.600 | And I just have to kind of look back over timespans

01:38:37.160 | and remember that every single time I have got through it

01:38:39.840 | and remind myself that it is just temporary.

01:38:42.680 | And that has been the most helpful thing for me

01:38:45.040 | 'cause I just try to combat the scariest thing about it.

01:38:47.880 | - And then believe, have faith that it's gonna,

01:38:52.600 | like this will go away.

01:38:53.720 | - And take action, obviously, to make sure it goes away.

01:38:57.000 | And I've also tried to spin it as depression

01:38:59.480 | is one of the hardest things I've had to deal with,

01:39:01.240 | but also one of the biggest motivators

01:39:03.480 | because if I just am left with my own brain,

01:39:06.400 | I get very depressed,

01:39:07.800 | then I really like working or focusing on things.

01:39:10.640 | So it actually pushed me to try to focus on school,

01:39:13.520 | try to focus on chess, focus on whatever I'm doing.

01:39:16.200 | And also if I'm feeling really bad,

01:39:18.000 | then there's probably something a little bit off,

01:39:20.680 | and I use it as a signal and try to think of it as,

01:39:23.320 | okay, this is just a sign that there's things

01:39:25.440 | that could be improved for long-term.

01:39:27.720 | - What about you, Andrea?

01:39:28.880 | Have you gone to dark places in your mind?

01:39:31.400 | - I'd say I, my family,

01:39:34.680 | like I see Alex going through this.

01:39:36.400 | My mom also has very serious depression.

01:39:38.880 | Luckily, I got the genes where I don't go through

01:39:41.600 | that serious level of depression that they do.

01:39:44.640 | I'd say mine is much more temporarily.

01:39:47.280 | - So it's more similar to what I was feeling

01:39:50.040 | when I was feeling shitty about it.

01:39:50.880 | - Exactly, you go through periods, yes, exactly,

01:39:53.440 | where like, but I know that it's not something

01:39:55.880 | that's clinical and that's just a genetic thing

01:40:00.320 | or a mental thing,

01:40:01.600 | whereas I know it's more serious for like my family members.

01:40:04.720 | And I did relate a lot with you where you're saying

01:40:06.840 | where that really pushes you.

01:40:08.000 | And I felt that a lot through content

01:40:09.600 | where you're just kind of feel hopeless

01:40:12.320 | and kind of like an existential crisis

01:40:14.720 | where I don't like the content I'm doing.

01:40:16.240 | And that's what pushes me to like, okay,

01:40:18.480 | you have no choice but to try something

01:40:20.320 | that now you're gonna be passionate about

01:40:21.800 | 'cause otherwise you're gonna be stuck

01:40:22.880 | in this never-ending cycle.

01:40:24.920 | So it does, it's short-term,

01:40:26.400 | and then it helps me come up with the things

01:40:29.280 | that I enjoy the most content-wise.

01:40:31.120 | And it also long-term taught me

01:40:32.960 | just how to have a more balanced life,

01:40:34.480 | like doing small things that make me happier

01:40:36.760 | on a daily basis to like working out,

01:40:38.520 | to eating healthier, which I noticed when I don't do

01:40:41.200 | for weeks, I just get a lot more depressed.

01:40:43.560 | - What has playing chess taught you about life?

01:40:48.720 | Has it made you better at life in any kind of way?

01:40:52.880 | Or has it made you worse?

01:40:54.240 | You know, a lot of people kind of romanticize the idea

01:40:56.800 | that chess is kind of like life,

01:40:58.160 | or life is kind of like chess.

01:40:59.880 | And becoming better at making decisions on the chessboard

01:41:03.240 | is gonna make you better at making decisions in life.

01:41:06.120 | Is there some truth to that?

01:41:07.560 | - I always shy away from these comparisons

01:41:11.880 | with chess and life.

01:41:14.120 | 'Cause yeah, it has both positives and negatives.

01:41:17.680 | So one thing it really helps develop from an early age

01:41:21.000 | is having an analytical mind,

01:41:23.160 | but then you could also get like paralysis of analysis

01:41:25.880 | where you've just thought of everything to death

01:41:28.200 | and you're moving too slowly

01:41:29.520 | when you just have to keep going forward

01:41:31.320 | 'cause there's not a great path ahead.

01:41:33.560 | So it's more like exercising your brain and staying sharp,

01:41:38.560 | and then also applying that to other things.

01:41:41.360 | Whereas if instead of playing chess,

01:41:43.000 | you're watching TV or something like that,

01:41:44.520 | you'd probably end up being less sharp.

01:41:47.200 | - Yeah, I used to, in high school, I'd always preach like,

01:41:50.800 | "Ah, chess, transfer school life skills."

01:41:52.960 | - College essays.

01:41:53.800 | - I would teach, I taught chess for juvenile department,

01:41:56.960 | for special education school.

01:41:58.320 | I'd cite studies in prisons where like,

01:42:00.800 | "Oh, playing chess helped them with X,

01:42:02.840 | "and for your kids, it helps with teamwork

01:42:05.160 | "and thinking over life choices."

01:42:07.360 | And now that I'm older, I don't believe in any of that BS.

01:42:09.920 | But I do think that the process of working really hard

01:42:14.920 | at something which takes really long to see results,

01:42:18.640 | and you have to be really dedicated.

01:42:20.320 | And like, I remember in high school and in middle school,

01:42:22.920 | well, all my friends, they were having fun on the weekends

01:42:25.480 | and I have to be there studying to hours of chess a day

01:42:27.920 | and knowing one day it'll pay off,

01:42:29.600 | but for like two, three years, nothing paid off.

01:42:32.600 | Kind of learning that type of patience with anything,

01:42:35.920 | it's like, you know, like getting a real job.

01:42:37.840 | I can't say I ever really worked a real job in my life

01:42:41.280 | since I went straight into streaming

01:42:42.760 | and I got to work for myself,

01:42:44.680 | but I'd say it's what people go to college for.

01:42:47.640 | Like, they learn how to live in the real world.

01:42:49.360 | And I'd say that that's what chess taught me as a kid.

01:42:52.360 | - When you're streaming, when you're doing the creative work,

01:42:57.000 | do you feel lonely?

01:42:58.280 | So a bunch of creators talk about sort of the,

01:43:01.520 | it's counterintuitive 'cause you're famous now.

01:43:03.880 | You know.

01:43:06.320 | - Sort of, not quite, but we're very lucky

01:43:09.680 | to have each other.

01:43:11.040 | - So is that the source of the comfort and the,

01:43:14.080 | like, is there some sense where it's isolating

01:43:18.040 | to have these personalities,

01:43:19.240 | they have to always be having fun, being wild and so on?

01:43:23.100 | Or is it actually the opposite?

01:43:25.560 | Like, is it a source of comfort to know

01:43:27.320 | that there's so many cool people out there

01:43:28.920 | that are giving you their love?

01:43:31.320 | - It started as a source of comfort

01:43:34.240 | because it started with a very small community

01:43:37.000 | who would be something,

01:43:38.640 | it would be around 200 to 300 viewers.

01:43:41.260 | And you know, only like 30 to 40 of them

01:43:43.320 | would actually chat actively.

01:43:45.000 | So you felt like it was a community, not an audience.

01:43:47.960 | - So you like knew them personally almost.

01:43:49.480 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:43:50.320 | And it was people who were interested in chess

01:43:53.040 | and I would really enjoy that.

01:43:55.200 | And then as, you know, we started growing bigger,

01:43:58.140 | the audience kind of changed

01:43:59.860 | where they're not there for you personally,

01:44:03.300 | they're there while you're entertaining.

01:44:05.680 | And it changed for me.

01:44:08.360 | And I ended up being a lot more self-conscious

01:44:11.160 | of things online and started even thinking of myself

01:44:14.280 | more like a product than a human being when I'm online

01:44:17.120 | because I had to--

01:44:17.960 | - Brand.

01:44:18.920 | - Yes, exactly.

01:44:19.880 | Otherwise you just start taking everything personally

01:44:22.080 | that people comment about you

01:44:23.440 | and it's based off a very small clip.

01:44:26.320 | - I see, so it was almost a kind of a defense mechanism.

01:44:28.720 | - Exactly.

01:44:30.400 | And it took time to get enough,

01:44:32.760 | 'cause even if you have tough skin,

01:44:34.620 | eventually it gets to you when you're online

01:44:36.240 | every single day,

01:44:37.080 | listening to thousands of people's feedback on you.

01:44:40.080 | - I think the loneliest part of being a creator

01:44:43.760 | is going through burnout,

01:44:45.100 | which everyone is just bound to happen,

01:44:48.680 | which is why I think we're very lucky

01:44:50.200 | that we have each other because, right,

01:44:52.360 | it's a numbers game and you're viral and trendy at one point

01:44:56.040 | and then you have to fall.

01:44:58.000 | And then there's months where you're just grinding.

01:45:00.080 | - And I just come in 10 minutes,

01:45:00.920 | and I'm like, Andrea, we're irrelevant.

01:45:02.880 | - That's where I'm bad.

01:45:04.280 | That's really the worst part of being a creator

01:45:07.480 | and figuring out how to get over that hump.

01:45:08.840 | But it makes me very grateful that I have my sister

01:45:10.720 | because I know that I'm not the only person

01:45:12.880 | going through it.

01:45:13.840 | And yeah, I know that most of my creator friends

01:45:17.960 | feel very lonely in that process

01:45:19.400 | 'cause they don't have someone who's their family

01:45:21.280 | and their business partner,

01:45:22.240 | and they're working by each other side by side.

01:45:24.080 | - You kind of tie in your self-worth to your job

01:45:27.920 | and your content, and maybe even more extremely

01:45:30.480 | than other jobs because you also are the entire company

01:45:34.640 | and the entire product.

01:45:36.000 | So when things are going well or when things are not,

01:45:38.520 | you just need to be careful to not reflect it like,

01:45:40.560 | oh, I am doing bad.

01:45:41.720 | I am bad rather than the trends have now changed.

01:45:44.240 | There's outside things.

01:45:45.160 | We're gonna keep going.

01:45:46.000 | And this is just the normal waves,

01:45:47.840 | which is how we think about it now.

01:45:49.720 | And also just about, are we enjoying this?

01:45:52.320 | Is this what we wanna make?

01:45:53.440 | But we were stuck in the camp for a while

01:45:56.280 | when we 10Xed our viewership after the pandemic

01:46:00.440 | because people were home and playing chess.

01:46:02.280 | And then of course that dropped by like 70%.

01:46:04.440 | And then you see that and you're trying your best,

01:46:06.640 | and you just kind of have to deal with it and be like,

01:46:09.360 | okay, I'm just gonna keep persevering

01:46:11.000 | and maybe it'll get better.

01:46:13.680 | - That's so fascinating.

01:46:14.560 | I mean, this is a struggle of sorts in the 21st century.

01:46:20.120 | Of like how to be an artist, how to be a creator,

01:46:23.360 | how to be an interesting mind in response to this algorithm.

01:46:27.160 | I'm telling you, turning off views and likes is really good.

01:46:30.440 | - I don't look at Twitch views for that reason.

01:46:32.880 | And I get obsessed with the numbers too.

01:46:34.680 | And I know Andrea does, but for me,

01:46:37.160 | what I try now is to be more focused in the moment,

01:46:39.560 | but Andrea somehow can do it even with the views.

01:46:42.400 | - So you just, you get, you have fun with it.

01:46:44.320 | Like, ooh, number one.

01:46:45.280 | - I'm too much of like a given to the temporary satisfaction.

01:46:48.720 | Like I like seeing, I like knowing

01:46:51.040 | that if something happens right now,

01:46:52.720 | viewership's gonna boost by a couple hundred

01:46:55.120 | and seeing that I'm right, of course.

01:46:57.120 | - But what about when the viewers start dropping it?

01:46:59.200 | - Well, and I always, like you just have this intuition now.

01:47:02.280 | And, but I think also the reason

01:47:04.040 | that it doesn't affect me so much

01:47:05.480 | is when we first started our content journey,

01:47:08.840 | we were only Twitch streamers and we, our livelihood,

01:47:11.800 | were based on Twitch viewers.

01:47:13.280 | But now like I've learned how to recycle that content

01:47:16.400 | into like YouTube and Shorts and other things

01:47:18.800 | where I know like, okay, if this stream does badly,

01:47:21.280 | there's so many more things you can do

01:47:22.720 | that also just have a much larger output.

01:47:24.820 | So it doesn't get to me as much as it did.

01:47:27.800 | - Do you ever feel that with your podcasts

01:47:29.680 | or do you feel like it's been authentic since the start?

01:47:32.360 | - No, so there's a million things to say there.

01:47:35.200 | So one is there's a reason I stopped taking a salary at MIT

01:47:40.200 | and moved to Texas is I wanted my bank account to go to zero

01:47:46.120 | because I do my best with my back against the wall.

01:47:48.680 | So one of the comforts I have is I don't care

01:47:50.600 | if this podcast is popular or not.

01:47:52.720 | I want it to not be popular.

01:47:54.700 | So I don't want it to make money.

01:47:56.200 | - You're failing, Lex.

01:47:57.080 | - Yeah, I wanna, I mean, I just do best

01:47:59.800 | when I'm more desperate.

01:48:03.040 | That's like one thing to say.

01:48:04.400 | - Seems like a reoccurring theme

01:48:06.120 | with how you build up your greatest work,

01:48:08.600 | which is honestly very respectable.

01:48:10.880 | - Yeah, so--

01:48:12.720 | - Don't even tell me.

01:48:13.560 | - I thank you.

01:48:14.400 | This is like--

01:48:15.560 | - I wouldn't recommend.

01:48:17.040 | - Right.

01:48:17.880 | Thank you for finding-- - If you're watching,

01:48:18.720 | just don't try it at home.

01:48:19.540 | - The silver lining for a not healthy mental state.

01:48:23.180 | But the other thing is I was very conscious,

01:48:26.600 | just like with chess and those kinds of things,

01:48:29.740 | that I love numbers.

01:48:31.980 | And I would be, if I paid attention,

01:48:35.040 | if I tried to be somebody at their best,

01:48:38.320 | like Mr. Beast, who really pays attention to numbers,

01:48:42.900 | I would just not, I'd become destroyed by it.

01:48:46.100 | The highs and the lows of it.

01:48:48.880 | And I just don't think I would be creating

01:48:50.700 | the best work possible.

01:48:54.260 | But one of the, I mean,

01:48:56.540 | one of the big benefits of a podcast is listeners.

01:49:00.860 | And there's an intimacy with the voice.

01:49:02.940 | And I think that is much more stable

01:49:06.540 | and a deeper and a more meaningful connection than YouTube.

01:49:10.920 | YouTube is a fickle mistress.

01:49:13.140 | So it's a weird drug that like, it really wants you--

01:49:18.140 | - With very addicting feedback loops.

01:49:20.060 | When you have a video that's number one out of 10,

01:49:23.460 | oh my God, the adrenaline you get.

01:49:25.820 | - And then the thing I really don't like also

01:49:28.680 | is the world will introduce you

01:49:33.500 | as a person that has a video on YouTube

01:49:37.000 | with some X number of views.

01:49:39.080 | Like the world wants you to be addicted to these numbers.

01:49:42.340 | - Because they associate it with having done a good job.

01:49:45.500 | 'Cause that's what people think views are,

01:49:47.260 | even if it's not.

01:49:48.140 | - Right, and primarily because they don't have

01:49:50.420 | any other signal of what's a good job.

01:49:53.700 | I think the much better signal is people

01:49:56.180 | that are close to you, your family, your colleagues,

01:49:59.040 | that say, wow, that was cool.

01:50:00.060 | I listened to that, that was really,

01:50:01.820 | I didn't know this, this was really powerful,

01:50:03.740 | this is really moving and so on.

01:50:05.760 | But definitely I'm terrified of numbers

01:50:08.020 | 'cause I feel like, just like I said,

01:50:10.660 | I'd rather be a Stanley Kubrick.

01:50:15.660 | You'd rather create great art,

01:50:20.340 | not to be pretentious,

01:50:22.580 | but the best possible thing you can create.

01:50:24.740 | Whatever the beauty that's,

01:50:26.040 | the capacity for creating beauty that's in you,

01:50:28.460 | I would like to maximize that.

01:50:29.740 | And I feel like for some people like Mr. Beast,

01:50:32.400 | I think those are perfectly aligned.

01:50:34.140 | 'Cause he just loves the most epic thing possible.

01:50:37.660 | But not for everybody.

01:50:38.660 | I think there's a lot of people

01:50:39.820 | for whom that's not perfectly aligned.

01:50:42.340 | And so I'm definitely one of those.

01:50:44.780 | And I'm still really confused

01:50:46.260 | why anybody listens to this anyway.

01:50:48.060 | But that's also something I guess you're trying to find,

01:50:53.060 | you're trying to figure out.

01:50:54.240 | - I get very afraid of ever becoming someone

01:50:58.140 | who just makes junk food content

01:51:00.060 | where you can't stop while you're in the moment

01:51:03.600 | and it has all of your attention,

01:51:05.340 | but when you're done,

01:51:06.660 | it didn't really bring any value to your life,

01:51:09.740 | which is something that I think the algorithm

01:51:11.940 | still does really reward.

01:51:14.220 | And making sure that as we are learning

01:51:16.760 | how to create better content,

01:51:18.140 | it's still something that is gonna be meaningful long-term.

01:51:21.300 | - Well, ultimately, you inspire a lot of young people.

01:51:25.100 | - Yeah, those are the best.

01:51:27.940 | When I get messages from people who are like,

01:51:30.140 | I played you a year ago and my rating was 1400

01:51:33.140 | and now I'm 1900.

01:51:34.180 | I'd like to challenge you again

01:51:35.460 | and it's a 14 year old writing a former email.

01:51:38.100 | Those things are always very, very fun to get.

01:51:40.740 | - And even just outside of chess,

01:51:42.260 | it's just empowering to see,

01:51:43.860 | and like for young women too,

01:51:45.340 | to see that kind of thing.

01:51:46.740 | I mean, you guys are being yourself

01:51:50.080 | and making money for being yourself

01:51:51.860 | and having fun and like growing as human beings,

01:51:54.860 | which I think is really inspiring for people to see.

01:51:57.680 | So in that sense, it's really rewarding.

01:51:59.300 | And then like the way I think about it is

01:52:03.180 | there is some benefit of doing entertaining type of stuff

01:52:06.420 | so that you get the,

01:52:09.020 | kind of like Mr. Beast does with philanthropy, right?

01:52:13.320 | The bigger Mr. Beast becomes,

01:52:15.060 | the more effective he is

01:52:16.220 | at actually doing positive impact on the world.

01:52:18.380 | So those things are tied together.

01:52:22.320 | But of course, with podcasts,

01:52:25.000 | you guys, well, maybe you have these kinds of tense things,

01:52:28.140 | but what kind of ideas, what kind of people do platform?

01:52:31.960 | What kind of person,

01:52:33.460 | what kind of human being do you wanna be?

01:52:38.140 | Because you actually are becoming a person

01:52:42.140 | and a set of ideas in front of the public eye.

01:52:47.140 | And you have to ask yourself that question really hard,

01:52:49.460 | like really seriously,

01:52:50.900 | because if you're doing stuff in private,

01:52:54.540 | you have the complete luxury to try shit out.

01:52:57.260 | - Right.

01:52:58.260 | - I think you have less of a luxury to try shit out

01:53:01.260 | because the internet can be vicious

01:53:03.040 | in punishing you for trying shit out.

01:53:05.640 | - And do you think that's sometimes a bad thing

01:53:07.640 | where you have less freedom to make mistakes?

01:53:10.040 | - Yeah, you have two choices.

01:53:12.840 | So one, you put up a wall and say,

01:53:15.360 | I don't give a shit what people think.

01:53:17.720 | I don't like doing that

01:53:18.560 | 'cause I like being fragile to the world

01:53:20.200 | and keeping my, sort of wearing my heart on my sleeve.

01:53:23.320 | Or the other one, yeah, you have to be,

01:53:26.080 | you have to actually think through what you're gonna say.

01:53:30.560 | You have to think of like, what do I believe?

01:53:33.760 | You have to be more serious about what you put out there.

01:53:38.640 | It's annoying, but it's also actually,

01:53:41.320 | you should have always been doing that.

01:53:43.600 | You should be deliberate with your actions and your words.

01:53:46.500 | But I don't know, it's a,

01:53:50.560 | but some of it, it's such a balance

01:53:54.000 | because some of my favorite people are brilliant people

01:53:57.720 | that allow themselves to act ridiculous

01:54:00.280 | and be silly.

01:54:01.240 | Elon Musk, who's become a good friend,

01:54:03.760 | is the silliest human of all.

01:54:05.400 | I mean, he's incredibly brilliant and productive and so on,

01:54:09.640 | but allows themselves to be silly.

01:54:11.780 | And that's also inspiring to people.

01:54:13.600 | Like you don't have to be perfect.

01:54:15.440 | You don't have to, you can be a weird,

01:54:18.240 | a giant weird mess and it's okay.

01:54:20.880 | So it's a balance.

01:54:22.560 | I think when you start to delve into political topics,

01:54:25.000 | into topics that really get tense for people,

01:54:28.200 | then you have to be a little bit more careful

01:54:29.720 | and deliberate.

01:54:31.320 | But it's also wise to stay the hell away

01:54:33.360 | from those topics in general.

01:54:35.440 | Like I mentioned to you offline,

01:54:36.840 | somebody I have been debating whether I want to talk to

01:54:39.880 | or not is Karyakin on the chess board

01:54:42.080 | because chess is just a game,

01:54:45.160 | but throughout the history of the 20th century,

01:54:48.480 | it was played between the Russians and the Americans

01:54:51.720 | and so on where they were at war, cold or hot war.

01:54:56.380 | And those are interesting.

01:54:58.280 | Those are interesting conversations to be had

01:55:01.520 | at the Olympics and so on.

01:55:03.280 | It's not just a game in some sense.

01:55:05.840 | It's like a mini war.

01:55:07.120 | And so I have to decide whether I want to talk to him

01:55:11.280 | or not and those kinds of things.

01:55:12.120 | You have to make those kinds of decisions.

01:55:14.440 | For now, you guys are not playing chess

01:55:16.120 | with Donald Trump or Obama or so on.

01:55:18.920 | - We are not right now, no.

01:55:20.920 | - How long is a stream?

01:55:22.200 | Like a few hours, right?

01:55:23.280 | - Now they're two to three hours.

01:55:24.880 | When I was first streaming,

01:55:26.080 | I'd stream for like six hours a day.

01:55:28.520 | - A day.

01:55:29.360 | - At least usually.

01:55:30.480 | Yeah, for like six to seven days a week.

01:55:33.320 | - Are you doing just like a talking one?

01:55:34.880 | - No, I would be playing chess the entire time while talking.

01:55:38.320 | And when I started streaming,

01:55:41.340 | that's kind of how everybody blows up on Twitch.

01:55:44.480 | You're just putting in crazy hours and you're always there.

01:55:47.400 | It's not about making the best content.

01:55:49.240 | It's about letting people feel like

01:55:51.880 | they're hanging out with you

01:55:53.440 | and just being on as much as you can.

01:55:55.840 | But I ended up feeling very burnt out

01:55:58.120 | 'cause it's hard to be your best self

01:56:00.400 | when you're in front of a camera for that long

01:56:02.400 | because you do get scared of going into places

01:56:06.580 | where you wanna learn but you might not be the best in

01:56:09.440 | 'cause it's harder to learn in public

01:56:10.920 | than do something that like, yeah,

01:56:12.360 | we're better than 99% of our viewers at chess.

01:56:14.840 | So that's a lot less scary

01:56:16.440 | than trying to play a game that you're bad at

01:56:19.080 | or discuss topics that you're interested in.

01:56:22.620 | - Yeah, have the beginner's mind and be dumb at something.

01:56:26.740 | - Right.

01:56:27.580 | - Yeah, which is where the fun is

01:56:28.900 | and you get to learn together

01:56:30.100 | but people punish you for it on the internet.

01:56:32.340 | What about you, Andrea?

01:56:35.980 | - Yeah, I think like Alex said at the beginning

01:56:38.340 | when we were grinding a lot,

01:56:39.780 | you don't really even have time for much of a private life

01:56:43.100 | 'cause you're streaming every hour of your life

01:56:45.540 | and people want it, like the appeal of streamers,

01:56:49.180 | it's called like being parasocial

01:56:50.580 | where you feel like they're your friend

01:56:52.060 | and they like it 'cause they want you

01:56:54.580 | to share everything about your life.

01:56:57.100 | Really the main challenge for me at first

01:56:59.860 | when trying to prioritize quantity over quality,

01:57:03.780 | which we're not doing anymore,

01:57:05.420 | was realizing that I can't turn everything I'm interested in

01:57:08.540 | and every passion into content.

01:57:10.740 | Before I'm like, well, I must stream more

01:57:14.080 | but I like music and I like playing piano

01:57:16.900 | and I like reading into these topics and I like fitness

01:57:20.220 | and then I'd try to live stream all of it

01:57:21.940 | and that's just, at some point it's like

01:57:24.660 | just enjoy your time off for those hobbies

01:57:27.500 | and prioritize what you're good at

01:57:28.940 | 'cause that's just gonna be better for the channel overall.

01:57:32.700 | So that was a learning lesson for sure.

01:57:34.340 | It's nice 'cause there are some intersections

01:57:36.500 | when I have tried new things that I really enjoy

01:57:38.940 | and it pays off but that's more less often.

01:57:41.760 | - So it's more like you can be yourself

01:57:43.500 | but only specific parts of yourself online

01:57:46.700 | and the rest, sometimes it's nice to just keep private

01:57:50.780 | and feel that you could just give it your 100% freedom.

01:57:55.780 | - See, I feel like I try to be the exact same person

01:58:01.860 | on podcasts as in private life.

01:58:04.000 | I really don't like hiding anything.

01:58:06.860 | - But you're also a generalist, right?

01:58:08.620 | Where you have people with all topics.

01:58:10.300 | For us, we built our audience off of very specific things.

01:58:13.580 | So people sometimes feel like,

01:58:15.120 | even at the start when we started playing less chess,

01:58:17.020 | they're like, I subbed for chess.

01:58:18.940 | Why are you not playing chess?

01:58:20.980 | - Exactly, people are tuning in

01:58:22.460 | for an interesting conversation on a bunch of topics.

01:58:25.020 | So like the more you are yourself, the better it is.

01:58:26.980 | But it is very hard when you build your brand

01:58:29.060 | on like one type of gaming content.

01:58:31.900 | - Build your brand.

01:58:32.860 | But yeah, the way you become a journalist

01:58:36.460 | is you slowly expand.

01:58:38.940 | It's like expanded checkers.

01:58:42.960 | I guess that's the downward--

01:58:47.540 | - Maybe poker.

01:58:48.580 | - Poker, yeah, exactly, poker.

01:58:50.020 | But also just the ideas, the space of ideas.

01:58:52.940 | And one of the cool things about chess

01:58:54.300 | is when you're talking over the chess board,

01:58:56.500 | it's a kind of podcast.

01:58:58.900 | - That is actually an idea we've had with playing chess

01:59:02.700 | while also doing a podcast and talking with people.

01:59:05.380 | It's kind of like an icebreaker

01:59:06.700 | where you're also focusing on the game at the same time.

01:59:08.940 | But we are slowly evolving and we're doing more things.

01:59:12.480 | Like one thing we wanted to do

01:59:14.020 | is spend less time in front of the computer.

01:59:16.260 | So now we're doing a chess travel show

01:59:18.140 | where we go to different countries

01:59:19.460 | and look at the chess culture.

01:59:20.860 | So it actually feels like we're doing things

01:59:23.100 | that we would wanna do and explore anyway.

01:59:25.980 | And maybe it's not as much in the idea space,

01:59:28.540 | which we both enjoy and do a lot in our own free time,

01:59:31.580 | but in the sharing cool experiences with our audience

01:59:34.780 | that we actually wanna do.

01:59:35.980 | - Where do you look forward to going?

01:59:37.620 | - We're going to Romania on September 9th.

01:59:41.300 | And I think this is the most exciting for me

01:59:44.340 | because we're going back to the country

01:59:46.940 | where our entire family's from,

01:59:48.900 | where our grandmother taught our dad,

01:59:51.340 | who taught us how to play chess.

01:59:52.980 | It has a very strong chess culture.

01:59:54.980 | So it'll be very unique to go back

01:59:57.620 | and see how everything is

01:59:59.700 | when we haven't been back for a very long time.

02:00:01.660 | - And for Romanians, it's very rare

02:00:04.700 | when there's a famous Romanian who accomplishes something,

02:00:07.900 | which is why right now Andrew Tate's

02:00:09.620 | the most famous Romanian.

02:00:10.820 | - But he's banned, so we're at this spot.

02:00:11.660 | - For a bad reason, exactly.

02:00:13.660 | And there's something very special

02:00:15.420 | about Romanian pride.

02:00:17.420 | And when we meet fellow Romanians in the US,

02:00:19.660 | like it's just an amazing connection.

02:00:22.140 | And like, I hear the way my dad talked about,

02:00:24.020 | like, for example, Nadia,

02:00:26.580 | who was a famous Romanian gymnast.

02:00:28.620 | And he's like, "Yeah, like Romania,

02:00:30.100 | we sucked at everything.

02:00:31.220 | But when she won the Olympics for gymnast,

02:00:34.620 | every kid on the street was doing gymnastics."

02:00:36.460 | 'Cause it's very rare

02:00:37.660 | that they make it to that level of success.

02:00:39.500 | And I was saying that we're super successful, super famous,

02:00:41.940 | but it is really cool to meet other Romanians through chess

02:00:44.180 | 'cause it's a very special bond.

02:00:45.940 | - Yeah, you feel like it's a community and like you belong.

02:00:50.420 | - Yeah, you can't get that anywhere else.

02:00:53.340 | - Let me ask your opinion since you mentioned him,

02:00:55.580 | Andrew Tate.

02:00:56.700 | You're both women, successful women.

02:00:59.700 | You're both creators.

02:01:01.220 | So Andrew Tate is an example of somebody

02:01:03.740 | that has become exceptionally successful

02:01:06.180 | at galvanizing public attention.

02:01:10.340 | But he's also, from many perspective, a misogynist.

02:01:13.620 | So let me ask a personal question.

02:01:16.740 | Do you think I should talk to him on this podcast?

02:01:19.180 | How would you feel as a fan,

02:01:22.580 | somebody, I'm talking to the great Alex and Andrea Botez,

02:01:28.580 | and the next episode is with Andrew Tate.

02:01:32.220 | - I think it's a double-edged sword.

02:01:34.540 | And most of these things are not as black and white

02:01:37.840 | as they seem.

02:01:38.880 | 'Cause on one hand, I don't agree with his beliefs.

02:01:43.340 | And I think he's said a lot of things that are very hurtful

02:01:45.940 | and that influence people's opinions.

02:01:49.480 | At the same time, talking to someone through that

02:01:54.860 | and trying to get to the root of it

02:01:57.140 | and how much of it he used just as a social media tactic

02:02:01.060 | to maybe change the opinion of people

02:02:03.620 | who have been so influenced by him

02:02:05.500 | towards something that is maybe more understanding

02:02:08.420 | towards women or things like that could do some good.

02:02:12.500 | But at the same time, platforming someone like that

02:02:15.220 | and giving them more attention also signals to other people

02:02:18.260 | who have a platform that it's okay.

02:02:20.100 | So it's kind of weighing the pluses and the minuses.

02:02:22.580 | And it's a very tough decision 'cause it's not clear.

02:02:26.020 | - And the thing about the internet,

02:02:28.300 | you make the wrong decision, you're gonna pay for it.

02:02:30.500 | - Right.

02:02:31.320 | That's the thing.

02:02:33.420 | Like personally, and it is funny,

02:02:36.260 | like I think the whole way he rose to fame

02:02:38.000 | is just a growth hack.

02:02:39.100 | And I've seen other people do it where like you just say

02:02:41.500 | kind of, I don't, honestly,

02:02:44.220 | I don't really listen to his content

02:02:45.700 | 'cause I just find it so dumb.

02:02:47.020 | But I think he knows that by saying the dumbest,

02:02:49.660 | most controversial things, that's like a quick rise to fame.

02:02:52.860 | And I think surface level, like he can really hold it up,

02:02:56.500 | but that's why I would honestly enjoy tuning

02:02:58.660 | into a conversation where you're really breaking down

02:03:00.820 | to the core of those beliefs.

02:03:02.220 | And I think like the young kids who look up to him

02:03:04.700 | and when you actually hear someone challenging it

02:03:06.940 | could actually be helpful for people.

02:03:09.140 | But at the same time, it's a lot of bad publicity.

02:03:12.340 | People see your podcast, they see, wow, like they don't,

02:03:15.020 | if they don't know you and they don't know

02:03:16.620 | why you're interviewing him and they don't listen,

02:03:18.340 | they'll see that and then 100% think

02:03:20.540 | it's for the other reason.

02:03:22.360 | - But I'm also afraid of a society

02:03:24.260 | where you can't have discourse with people you don't,

02:03:27.180 | with people you disagree with.

02:03:29.020 | And even though I don't like Andrew Tate,

02:03:31.140 | I think the fact that he got banned from all the platforms

02:03:33.860 | is kind of scary because it sets a precedent.

02:03:36.900 | And you always have to ask yourself,

02:03:38.200 | would this be ethical if I was on the other side?

02:03:40.660 | And even things with a president like Trump,

02:03:42.640 | even if let's say you're somebody who was on the left,

02:03:45.740 | if that would have happened to a leftist president,

02:03:47.660 | how would you feel?

02:03:48.500 | Would you think that's morally ethical?

02:03:49.880 | So that is something that I think is important.

02:03:54.100 | We try to find ways to have conversations

02:03:56.420 | and reach some mutual understanding

02:03:59.140 | and try instead of just amplifying the worst

02:04:02.140 | about every human being.

02:04:03.560 | - Well, so one of the major reasons I'm struggling with

02:04:07.580 | is because I really enjoy talking to brilliant women.

02:04:11.560 | I think it's also, a lot of women reached out to me

02:04:14.880 | saying like, it is what it is,

02:04:17.900 | but they're inspired when a female guest is on.

02:04:20.060 | And to me, if I talk to somebody like Andrew Tate,

02:04:23.240 | even if I have a really hard hitting,

02:04:25.440 | I think it could be a very good conversation

02:04:28.320 | that lessens the likelihood that a brilliant,

02:04:34.480 | powerful female will go on the show.

02:04:37.380 | Because they'll never watch it,

02:04:39.820 | but the thing we do in this society

02:04:41.540 | is we put labels on each other.

02:04:42.700 | Well, Lex is the person that platforms misogynists.

02:04:46.740 | I did a thing where Joe Rogan got in trouble

02:04:53.120 | over an N-word controversy earlier in the year.

02:04:56.780 | And Joe's a good friend of mine.

02:04:58.780 | I said that I stand with Joe,

02:05:00.500 | that he's not a racist or something like that.

02:05:02.900 | And within certain communities,

02:05:06.460 | I'm now somebody who's an apologist for racists, right?

02:05:09.840 | Or a racist myself, that kind of thing.

02:05:12.360 | And we put labels without ever listening to the content,

02:05:14.620 | without ever sort of, actually,

02:05:17.660 | just even the very simple step,

02:05:19.540 | or it seems to be difficult, of like,

02:05:21.680 | taking on the best possible interpretation

02:05:27.200 | of what a person said,

02:05:28.560 | and giving them the benefit of the doubt

02:05:30.440 | and having empathy for another person.

02:05:31.880 | So you have to play in this field

02:05:34.320 | where people assign labels to each other,

02:05:36.680 | and it's difficult.

02:05:39.360 | But ultimately, I believe, I hope,

02:05:41.260 | that good conversations is a way,

02:05:45.000 | like a greater understanding of what people

02:05:46.760 | to grow together as a society,

02:05:50.000 | and improve and learn the lessons,

02:05:51.440 | the mistakes of the past.

02:05:52.420 | But you also have to play this game

02:05:54.440 | where people just like putting labels on each other

02:05:56.800 | and canceling each other over those.

02:05:58.520 | Or that guy said one thing nice about Donald Trump,

02:06:01.560 | he must be a far right Nazi,

02:06:04.840 | or the opposite,

02:06:06.260 | that this person said something nice about the vaccine,

02:06:11.000 | he must be a far left whatever,

02:06:13.760 | 'cause apologist for whatever, for Fauci.

02:06:18.760 | Where most of us, I think, are ultimately in the middle.

02:06:23.200 | It's a weird thing.

02:06:25.500 | But I think, and it's also painful on a personal level.

02:06:28.080 | Like people have written to me

02:06:31.960 | about things like single words,

02:06:35.080 | half sentences that I've said about

02:06:37.640 | either Putin or Zelensky,

02:06:39.900 | where they have hate towards me because of what I said.

02:06:42.640 | Both directions.

02:06:45.240 | I've now accumulated very passionate people

02:06:48.600 | that some call me a Putin apologist,

02:06:52.120 | some call me a Zelensky apologist.

02:06:54.440 | And it hurts to, given how much I have family there,

02:06:58.720 | how much I've seen of suffering there,

02:07:00.920 | and to carry that burden over time

02:07:02.640 | and not let it destroy you is tough.

02:07:04.560 | So like, do you wanna take on another thing like that

02:07:07.940 | when you have conversations?

02:07:09.520 | - Right.

02:07:10.360 | - Or can I just talk to awesome people like you two?

02:07:13.120 | Where it's not that burden.

02:07:14.200 | - We're not controversial.

02:07:16.120 | - Or you're interesting, you're fascinating,

02:07:17.680 | you're inspiring, you're like fun, you know?

02:07:21.000 | Not all those difficult things

02:07:23.400 | are gonna come with more difficult conversations.

02:07:25.720 | - Right, but somebody has to be

02:07:27.760 | making those difficult decisions

02:07:30.160 | and challenging the notions that we should cancel someone

02:07:35.160 | just for slightly disagreeing with us.

02:07:37.640 | And it's very hard to take that on personally.

02:07:40.640 | And I think that's a huge part of it.

02:07:42.280 | When you know it's something you're doing

02:07:44.280 | for the right reasons,

02:07:45.400 | and you're getting a lot of people

02:07:46.800 | coming and misinterpreting it, it's very painful.

02:07:52.720 | But I think you have to ask yourself long-term

02:07:56.400 | if when you made that decision,

02:07:57.920 | you ultimately thought it would be better or worse

02:08:00.600 | for your listeners to know that conversation.

02:08:02.800 | And then if you can sleep with it at night, take the risk.

02:08:05.880 | - Yeah, when actually when I talk to people that,

02:08:08.640 | especially like astrophysicists,

02:08:10.000 | and you realize how tiny we are.

02:08:11.760 | - Right.

02:08:12.600 | - How incredible, like how huge the universe is.

02:08:14.680 | Like, it doesn't matter, you can do anything.

02:08:16.960 | You could like, you can walk around naked,

02:08:20.880 | talk shit to people, do whatever the hell.

02:08:23.320 | And actually in modern social media,

02:08:25.600 | people just like forget.

02:08:27.000 | It's like, it's ultimately liberating.

02:08:29.160 | Just try to do, at least from my perspective,

02:08:32.520 | the best possible thing for the world you can.

02:08:34.720 | Take big risks, and it doesn't matter.

02:08:37.280 | - And that's the other thing with being canceled nowadays,

02:08:39.620 | because everyone's attention is much more short-sighted.

02:08:43.400 | You can get canceled,

02:08:44.440 | and then it'll blow over in three days.

02:08:46.160 | And you actually see things like this on Twitch very often,

02:08:48.440 | where people just have bursts of outrage,

02:08:51.240 | and they come into your chat,

02:08:52.360 | and they're all spamming and saying mean things,

02:08:54.080 | and then three days after.

02:08:55.680 | And of course, they're not actually ever serious things.

02:08:57.960 | They're usually like things clipped of any streamers

02:09:00.080 | in like their worst moments,

02:09:01.200 | but then people forget about it pretty soon after.

02:09:03.860 | - So you're able to accept that,

02:09:06.960 | like when somebody's being shitty to you for a day?

02:09:09.900 | - Yeah, I mean, I still get sometimes emotional about it,

02:09:12.800 | especially when I'm like, oh wow,

02:09:14.200 | like these things that are being said are not true,

02:09:16.760 | or like this is clearly taken out of context,

02:09:19.280 | but I've just accepted that it's part of the job.

02:09:22.440 | And if I am trying my best,

02:09:25.080 | and I am trying things with as good intentions as possible,

02:09:29.240 | then I just try to learn every time that happens,

02:09:31.080 | and be like, okay, what could I do better?

02:09:32.840 | And what is just part of the job?

02:09:34.780 | - Well, let's start some controversy.

02:09:37.160 | Who's the greatest chess player of all time?

02:09:39.400 | Is it Magnus Carlsen?

02:09:42.320 | Is it Garry Kasparov?

02:09:43.280 | Is it somebody else, Bobby Fischer?

02:09:46.200 | Do you have a favorite, Alex?

02:09:48.280 | - So whenever I hear this question,

02:09:50.760 | I interpret it in a very specific way,

02:09:53.720 | where it's not who was the most talented chess player,

02:09:57.320 | or who had the most impact on the chess world,

02:09:59.240 | but who is the greatest at playing chess?

02:10:02.860 | Where if you were putting all of these players

02:10:05.400 | at their peak, who would be the best?

02:10:07.960 | And we're kind of living in a world

02:10:11.460 | where obviously humans are becoming more like cyborgs,

02:10:14.120 | and their tools make them a lot more powerful.

02:10:17.320 | - Yes.

02:10:18.480 | - And the computer is the most powerful tool for chess

02:10:22.000 | that we've ever witnessed.

02:10:23.480 | And the top players now, someone like Magnus Carlsen,

02:10:26.540 | or Garry Kasparov, if they were gonna go towards people

02:10:30.080 | like even Lasker, or Bobby Fischer back in the day,

02:10:35.080 | Lasker, he was world champion for 27 years,

02:10:38.060 | he was the best in his field by far,

02:10:40.080 | but would he be able to stand up to someone

02:10:41.640 | like Magnus Carlsen who has had these tools?

02:10:44.240 | I don't think so.

02:10:45.600 | So most chess players have said Garry Kasparov,

02:10:49.680 | and I think even Magnus has said that in the past,

02:10:52.480 | but I like to think of it as Magnus in his peak,

02:10:55.320 | and Garry at his peak, and because Magnus was able

02:10:57.600 | to live more in a computer era,

02:10:59.400 | I feel like so far he's the greatest of all time.

02:11:02.560 | And some studies say things like

02:11:04.000 | how there's rating inflation,

02:11:05.760 | but I looked into some of them,

02:11:06.980 | and they basically calculated people's play

02:11:11.400 | over the years, and it seems that there hasn't

02:11:13.800 | been inflation, people are just getting better,

02:11:15.360 | and I think it's 'cause you have better tools at chess.

02:11:18.320 | - And also one of the cases, what's your--

02:11:20.960 | - I was gonna say, I actually, I disagree with that.

02:11:24.560 | - Good, make it interesting.

02:11:26.480 | - I think I would judge the greatest player of all time

02:11:31.480 | in relative to the time that they lived in,

02:11:33.680 | and Magnus, although he is technically

02:11:36.680 | the strongest chess player in history,

02:11:38.480 | that is because he had computers to study chess with,

02:11:41.960 | and of course, if you compare him to Garry Kasparov,

02:11:45.640 | he plays most like Stockfish,

02:11:47.840 | but Garry Kasparov, at his time,

02:11:49.640 | he beat more players of his skill level than Magnus did,

02:11:53.680 | and Magnus loses more often.

02:11:55.320 | He also, of course, held the belt for 20 years more,

02:11:57.660 | so I'd say actually, because Garry lacked the help

02:12:01.120 | of computers to study chess,

02:12:03.480 | and overall performed better against players

02:12:06.580 | of his skill level, I think he would be number one.

02:12:09.280 | - Nice, yeah, but I mean, the case that people make

02:12:11.880 | for Magnus, and many, I mean, what Alex said,

02:12:16.360 | but also, Magnus plays a lot, and he doesn't,

02:12:21.080 | he plays a lot of blitz, bullet, and he puts,

02:12:24.960 | he gets drunk, and he's really putting himself out there,

02:12:29.520 | and in all kinds of conditions,

02:12:31.480 | and he's able to dominate in a lot of them.

02:12:33.640 | We get to see many of the losses, or blunders,

02:12:36.280 | and all that kind of stuff,

02:12:37.120 | because he just puts himself out there,

02:12:39.000 | and I think Kasparov was much more like--

02:12:42.520 | - Never saw him play drunk, right?

02:12:44.160 | - Yeah, and it's very focused on the World Championship,

02:12:47.080 | it's very, like, very limited number of games,

02:12:51.120 | and very focused on winning, and so there's some aspect

02:12:55.080 | to the versatility, the aggressive play, the fun,

02:12:58.160 | all of that, that I think you have to give credit to.

02:13:01.800 | - Oh, 100%.

02:13:02.800 | - In terms of just the scope, the scale of the variety

02:13:07.800 | of genius exhibited by Magnus.

02:13:10.760 | - And he might not even be done yet,

02:13:12.280 | I don't know if he'll ever hit 2,900,

02:13:14.680 | but we can't judge yet, 'cause he's not at the peak

02:13:17.580 | of his career, potentially.

02:13:18.960 | - What do you think about him not playing World Championship?

02:13:20.900 | Isn't that wild?

02:13:23.080 | The entirety of the history of chess in the 20th century,

02:13:26.800 | going like, "Meh."

02:13:27.840 | It's walking away from this one tournament

02:13:31.720 | that seems to be at the center of chess.

02:13:34.320 | What do you think about that decision?

02:13:37.400 | - I mean, you can't help but be disappointed,

02:13:40.440 | as a chess fan who wants to see the best player

02:13:43.040 | in the world defend his title, but I also understand it

02:13:46.760 | on a personal level, and not feeling as satisfied

02:13:51.360 | when you're going to the World Championship

02:13:53.800 | and having to defend against people

02:13:55.720 | who are less strong than you.

02:13:57.360 | And also, imagine winning World Championships

02:13:59.540 | and not feeling a joy out of that.

02:14:02.040 | - Yeah.

02:14:02.880 | - So maybe by not doing that and focusing instead

02:14:05.640 | on a goal like 2,900, he'll be more likely to accomplish it,

02:14:09.160 | because he's focusing on what actually motivates him

02:14:12.480 | to play chess, but I do think that it will hurt

02:14:17.480 | how we judge the next World Champion.

02:14:20.440 | - I think it won't change him being the best player

02:14:23.880 | in the world, and for someone to replace him,

02:14:27.320 | even let's say like Nepo versus Ding,

02:14:29.900 | even if one of them win, and right, on some stance,

02:14:32.900 | it does lower the merit, because now,

02:14:35.260 | who has the World Chess Championship title

02:14:37.700 | isn't actually the best player in the world,

02:14:39.620 | and that has happened before in the past,

02:14:41.700 | but still gonna take 'em the same effort to prove

02:14:45.460 | when they would pass him, like 10, 20 years,

02:14:48.100 | to become stronger than Magnus,

02:14:49.460 | so I don't think it changes the skill level

02:14:51.220 | that it takes to become the best chess player in the world.

02:14:54.180 | I think for chess fans, it's very disappointing,

02:14:56.740 | but I think in the overall grand scheme

02:14:58.700 | of the public view to people who don't really,

02:15:01.660 | so what breaks the popular culture,

02:15:04.700 | and you think of what names people know

02:15:08.300 | who don't play chess, like Bobby Fischer did it,

02:15:10.620 | most people know Kasparov or Magnus,

02:15:12.320 | it takes the same ability and talent,

02:15:14.420 | and that doesn't change.

02:15:15.480 | - I think it does change, though,

02:15:16.980 | if you're playing a player who's not as strong,

02:15:20.360 | but I see your point as well, and I know we differ on this.

02:15:23.820 | Like I said, I heard you ask Magnus,

02:15:25.220 | but what is your take on it?

02:15:26.720 | - Well, listen, his answer is kind of brilliant,

02:15:33.940 | which he's not saying he's bored of the World Championship,

02:15:38.940 | he's bored of a process

02:15:41.660 | that doesn't determine the best player.

02:15:43.660 | Like, and it's too anxiety-inducing to him

02:15:47.100 | to have a small number of games.

02:15:49.760 | He doesn't mind losing, which is really fascinating,

02:15:54.780 | to a better player, or somebody who's his level.

02:15:58.620 | He's more anxious about losing to--

02:16:02.060 | - A weaker player.

02:16:04.220 | - The weaker player because of the small sample size.

02:16:07.180 | Now, if poker players had that anxiety,

02:16:09.840 | they would never play at all, right?

02:16:11.620 | That's the World Series of Poker.

02:16:13.340 | You get to lose against weaker players all the time,

02:16:17.580 | that's the throw all the dice,

02:16:19.420 | but that's an interesting perspective

02:16:21.980 | that he would love to play 20, 30, 40 games

02:16:25.140 | in the World Championship,

02:16:26.140 | but then he would enjoy it much more.

02:16:28.180 | And also play shorter games

02:16:29.980 | because they emphasize the pure chess,

02:16:34.620 | actually being able to,

02:16:35.880 | much more variety in the middle game,

02:16:41.220 | just to see a bunch of chaos

02:16:42.760 | and see how you're able to compute, calculate,

02:16:44.460 | and intuition, all that kind of stuff.

02:16:46.500 | I mean, that's beautiful.

02:16:48.180 | I wish the chess world would step up

02:16:50.740 | and meet him in a place that makes sense.

02:16:53.360 | Change the World Championship,

02:16:56.540 | so FIDE changing it somehow that allows for that,

02:17:00.460 | or having other really respected tournaments

02:17:03.620 | that become like an annual thing,

02:17:05.300 | that step up to that.

02:17:06.480 | Or more kind of online YouTube type of competitions,

02:17:12.120 | which I think they're trying to do more and more,

02:17:14.580 | like the Crypto Cup and all those kinds of things.

02:17:16.420 | - Yeah, and the Grand Tour.

02:17:17.860 | - The Grand Tour.

02:17:18.700 | - Where players play in,

02:17:19.520 | which takes a lot of the top players

02:17:21.100 | and they do it online in shorter formats.

02:17:23.740 | - But there's, you know,

02:17:25.060 | so that's his perspective.

02:17:26.260 | My perhaps narrow perspective

02:17:30.320 | is I romanticize the Olympic Games,

02:17:32.340 | and those are every four years,

02:17:33.660 | and the World Championships,

02:17:36.300 | because they're rare,

02:17:38.220 | because the sample size is so small.

02:17:40.420 | That's where the magic happens.

02:17:42.180 | Everything's on the line for, you know,

02:17:45.100 | for people that spend their whole life,

02:17:47.920 | 20 years of dedication,

02:17:50.580 | everything you have,

02:17:51.600 | every minute of the day is spent for that moment.

02:17:54.740 | You know, you think about like gymnastics

02:17:56.300 | at the Olympic Games.

02:17:57.580 | There's certain sports where a single mistake

02:17:59.780 | and you're fucked.

02:18:01.300 | And that stress, that pressure,

02:18:03.940 | it can break people,

02:18:08.940 | or it can create magic.

02:18:11.180 | Like a person that's the underdog

02:18:13.580 | has the best night of their life,

02:18:15.540 | or the person that's been dominating for years,

02:18:18.220 | all of a sudden slips up.

02:18:19.860 | That drama from a human perspective is beautiful.

02:18:22.080 | So I still like the World Championships,

02:18:24.560 | but then again, looking at all the draws,

02:18:28.320 | looking at like, well, the magic isn't quite there.

02:18:33.320 | So to me, when I see faster games of chess,

02:18:36.440 | that's much more beautiful.

02:18:39.360 | But I don't understand the game of chess

02:18:41.520 | deeply enough to know,

02:18:43.220 | like, does it have to be so many draws?

02:18:48.220 | Like, is there a way to create a more dynamic chess?

02:18:51.420 | And he talked about random chess

02:18:53.820 | with a random starting position.

02:18:55.380 | That's really interesting.

02:18:56.220 | But then of course, that's like,

02:18:58.460 | then you do have to play hundreds of games

02:19:00.540 | and that kind of stuff.

02:19:01.820 | - Right.

02:19:03.300 | - But I think it's great that the world number one

02:19:07.300 | is struggling with these questions

02:19:12.420 | because he's in the position,

02:19:13.800 | he has the leverage to actually change the game of chess

02:19:16.800 | as it's publicly seen, as it's publicly played.

02:19:19.480 | So it's interesting.

02:19:21.920 | He's still young enough to dominate

02:19:24.120 | for quite a long time if he wants.

02:19:26.280 | So I don't know.

02:19:27.120 | I, with Kasparov, the fight between nations,

02:19:32.120 | I hope they have the World Championship

02:19:34.760 | and I hope he's still a part of it somehow.

02:19:38.520 | I hope he changes his mind.

02:19:40.400 | - And comes back.

02:19:41.240 | - Comes back, some kind of dramatic thing, I don't know.

02:19:44.640 | But it is, his heart is not in it.

02:19:47.860 | And then,

02:19:48.700 | and then that's not beautiful to see, right?

02:19:54.460 | Yeah, it is beautiful that the thing he wants

02:20:01.980 | is a great game of chess against an opponent

02:20:04.420 | that's his level or better.

02:20:06.120 | And that's great that he's coming from that place.

02:20:10.060 | But I hope he comes back somehow

02:20:11.840 | 'cause the World Championship

02:20:13.340 | is a special thing in any sport.

02:20:16.900 | - So you do wish that the person

02:20:18.500 | who wins the World Championship

02:20:19.980 | is the best player in the world?

02:20:21.700 | - No.

02:20:24.660 | I hope that the best people in the world,

02:20:28.580 | the two best people in the world are the ones that sit down.

02:20:31.660 | But the person that wins is the person that,

02:20:35.780 | that's the magic of it.

02:20:37.140 | Nobody knows who's going to win.

02:20:39.100 | I think Magnus is so,

02:20:41.460 | he really wants the best person to win.

02:20:43.880 | That's why he wants the large sample size.

02:20:48.460 | But to me, there's some magic to it.

02:20:50.420 | The stress of it, the drama of it,

02:20:53.340 | that's all part of the game.

02:20:55.260 | Like it's not just about the purity of the game,

02:20:58.060 | like the calculation, the pure chess of it.

02:21:01.740 | It's also like the drama.

02:21:03.120 | Yeah, the pressure, the drama, all of it.

02:21:07.740 | The shit talking, if it gets to you, the mind games.

02:21:10.740 | - This is the part that's fun to watch,

02:21:12.540 | but less fun to be playing.

02:21:14.460 | - But that's why it's great.

02:21:15.700 | Who can rise under that pressure

02:21:18.620 | and who melts under that pressure.

02:21:20.320 | There's a lot of people that look up to you,

02:21:24.140 | like they're inspired by you

02:21:26.180 | 'cause you've taken a kind of nonlinear path through life.

02:21:28.700 | Is there any advice you have for people

02:21:30.980 | like in high school today

02:21:32.340 | that are trying to figure out what they want to do?

02:21:35.740 | Do they want to go to Stanford?

02:21:36.980 | Do they want to pursue a career in, I don't know,

02:21:41.380 | in industry or go kind of the path you guys have taken,

02:21:45.980 | which is have the ability to do all of that

02:21:48.460 | and still choose to make the thing

02:21:50.620 | that you're passionate about your life?

02:21:52.660 | - I always like the calculated risks approach

02:21:56.740 | where when you're younger, it's okay to take more risks

02:22:00.340 | 'cause you have a lot more time,

02:22:02.300 | but there has to be a reason

02:22:04.000 | why you're doing that particular risk.

02:22:06.060 | Is it something that you've spent a lot of time already

02:22:08.340 | really passionate and working on

02:22:09.860 | or is it just something that's trendy

02:22:11.300 | and you want to do it

02:22:12.140 | 'cause you don't have a better option?

02:22:13.780 | And that's actually similar to what Andrea did

02:22:16.300 | when she decided to go into streaming instead of school.

02:22:19.500 | - Yeah, it was the reason I got into streaming

02:22:21.900 | 'cause I was initially going to go to college,

02:22:24.220 | but the pandemics,

02:22:25.420 | it was right at the beginning of the pandemic

02:22:27.340 | and all my classes were online.

02:22:29.300 | And I never thought, ever since I was 12,

02:22:32.140 | my dream was school

02:22:33.660 | and I saw myself nowhere else than going to university.

02:22:37.900 | And I thought of it and kind of weighed out the risk.

02:22:40.420 | I'm like, "Well, if I take a gap year

02:22:41.700 | and I try streaming with my sister,

02:22:43.940 | what do I have to lose?"

02:22:45.140 | I gained some experience working with someone

02:22:47.340 | who has a lot more experience than I do.

02:22:49.820 | And then I can go back to school after.

02:22:52.300 | And if I go to school right now,

02:22:53.960 | I do online classes for a year

02:22:55.420 | and that's something that I could do at any time.

02:22:57.340 | So that's why it made a lot of sense for me to go into this.

02:23:00.900 | But of course, this is also a very unique opportunity.

02:23:04.220 | So I don't know how applicable,

02:23:05.580 | but I do think overall the calculated risk

02:23:07.700 | is a really good lesson.

02:23:08.540 | - So life is like chess.

02:23:10.340 | (all laughing)

02:23:11.380 | - Exactly. - Maybe sometimes.

02:23:12.860 | - Exactly.

02:23:13.820 | - You also, have you considered a career

02:23:15.940 | in professional fighting?

02:23:16.860 | I saw you did a self-defense class, you did a little jiu-jitsu.

02:23:20.260 | - Did you see the 10-year-old kid who-

02:23:22.860 | - Throwing her? - Threw her?

02:23:24.220 | - Yes, and apparently I could have broken a leg.

02:23:26.500 | But it's actually funny, like chess boxing is a thing

02:23:29.380 | and I have been doing a lot of boxing.

02:23:31.380 | Physical activity is like,

02:23:33.620 | honestly, one of my favorite things to do.

02:23:36.020 | And I have been testing it out on content.

02:23:38.300 | And we have a creator friend

02:23:40.060 | who's hosting a chess boxing tournament,

02:23:42.060 | but there's no woman who's could match me, unfortunately,

02:23:45.820 | 'cause all the opponents are male and I can't fight a guy.

02:23:50.140 | - How does chess boxing work?

02:23:51.700 | - So you do a round of chess and a round of boxing.

02:23:54.180 | And we actually did a training camp for it before.

02:23:56.540 | And of course, like after you go into the ring-

02:23:59.380 | - Is this real?

02:24:00.220 | Is this serious? - Yes, it's amazing.

02:24:01.060 | - We went to a London chess boxing club.

02:24:03.340 | - And like, after you get-

02:24:04.180 | - No, it seemed like videos,

02:24:05.140 | I thought it was something you do in Russia or something.

02:24:07.020 | - No, it's a real sport.

02:24:08.180 | - Yeah, it's a real sport. - Yeah.

02:24:09.420 | No, it's very cool.

02:24:10.460 | - But after you get really tired,

02:24:12.320 | you're more likely to make a mistake

02:24:13.980 | and you call them Jaffers or something.

02:24:16.060 | - Yeah, that's probably a good strategy,

02:24:17.300 | is like, what do you want to,

02:24:19.380 | because some of it is a cardio thing.

02:24:21.340 | Do you wanna work on your chess or your boxing?

02:24:23.740 | - They do both, it's very fun.

02:24:25.580 | But yeah, from a content perspective,

02:24:27.140 | I'm sure there's a lot of people that like-

02:24:28.740 | - And it's also very entertaining.

02:24:30.060 | - Would love to see.

02:24:31.540 | - Yeah, I don't wanna see Andrea getting hit.

02:24:33.820 | That would be- - I would love to-

02:24:35.540 | - Unless she doesn't get hit.

02:24:36.620 | - I would get-

02:24:37.740 | - Our roommate fought in a fight

02:24:39.660 | and she did end up winning, but seeing her get hit,

02:24:42.340 | I thought I was gonna throw up off screen.

02:24:43.740 | - I just think it was so cool.

02:24:44.940 | She had no experience in boxing whatsoever.

02:24:47.140 | And then coming from someone in the content world

02:24:49.540 | where you start like waking up six days a week at 6 a.m.

02:24:52.140 | and she's training every day,

02:24:53.500 | like a real professional athlete,

02:24:55.820 | I think it's such a unique experience

02:24:58.220 | and also a really test of how much

02:25:00.620 | you can really commit to this and progress.

02:25:02.900 | And I think that's really rewarding.

02:25:05.100 | - Did you ever end up doing the marathon

02:25:06.900 | with David Goggins that you were training?

02:25:08.980 | - No, I got injured, but we're gonna do it soon.

02:25:11.820 | That's on my bucket list, just to see what your limits are.

02:25:15.540 | - You're ready to do it?

02:25:16.380 | - What did you do leading up to this?

02:25:18.220 | - Nothing. - You're just gonna go into it.

02:25:21.020 | - It's mental anyway.

02:25:22.580 | But I do run a lot to make sure there's no,

02:25:25.140 | you have to have a base level of fitness

02:25:29.980 | to make sure your body doesn't completely freak out.

02:25:32.300 | But other than that, 50 plus miles is just about

02:25:36.340 | taking it one step at a time

02:25:39.500 | and just being able to deal with the suffering

02:25:42.220 | and all the voices, the little voices

02:25:43.780 | that tell you all the excuses,

02:25:44.900 | like why are you doing this?

02:25:47.380 | This blister is bleeding,

02:25:49.700 | whatever the thing that makes you want to stop,

02:25:53.020 | just shut it off.

02:25:53.860 | - Sometimes it feels like you like pain.

02:25:56.940 | - No, well, no, no.

02:26:00.140 | But the pain does seem to show the way to progress.

02:26:05.140 | So what-- - In your turn.

02:26:07.020 | - In my world.

02:26:08.940 | Something that's really hard and I don't want to do,

02:26:11.660 | that's usually the right thing to do.

02:26:14.140 | And I'm not saying that's a universal truth,

02:26:17.980 | it's just, if there's a few doors to go into,

02:26:22.060 | the one that I want to go into least,

02:26:24.340 | that's the one that usually is the right one.

02:26:27.340 | Afterwards, I will learn something from it.

02:26:29.860 | The David Goggins thing, I don't know.

02:26:31.860 | Listen, we're talking offline,

02:26:34.180 | the conversation with Liv,

02:26:36.020 | she's a very numeric, calculated risk.

02:26:38.700 | Everything is planned.

02:26:39.740 | I go with the heart.

02:26:40.860 | I just go whatever the hell.

02:26:42.900 | I think two years ago, I woke up,

02:26:46.620 | summer, I decided to tweet,

02:26:50.420 | I will do as many pushups.

02:26:53.340 | I don't know why I did this.

02:26:55.660 | But I will do as many pushups and pull-ups

02:26:58.260 | as this tweet gets likes, something like that.

02:27:00.500 | And then it got like 30,000.

02:27:05.860 | - Once you put it out on the internet,

02:27:08.380 | you're held accountable.

02:27:09.220 | - Well, for myself, I mean, in some sense.

02:27:11.580 | And then that's when,

02:27:12.940 | I already was connected to David at that point,

02:27:15.540 | but that's when he called me.

02:27:16.940 | And then I have to do it.

02:27:19.820 | And then I did it,

02:27:20.660 | and it was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

02:27:21.500 | - How long did you take?

02:27:23.100 | - I did it for seven days and I got injured.

02:27:25.980 | So I did about a few thousand.

02:27:27.580 | - Wait, so this is what got you to be injured?

02:27:29.860 | This tweet? - This challenge?

02:27:30.980 | - No, it's different.

02:27:31.820 | I keep getting injured.

02:27:32.660 | I keep getting injured doing some stuff.

02:27:34.340 | But this particular thing, I started doing the,

02:27:36.580 | you don't realize that you have to really ramp up.

02:27:39.140 | So I got like overuse injury tendonitis

02:27:42.500 | on the shoulder all the way down to the elbow.

02:27:46.060 | So I took like eight or nine days off

02:27:49.940 | and then started again.

02:27:51.260 | And then it took about 31 days to do.

02:27:55.100 | The number was like 26, 27,000.

02:28:01.580 | Yeah.

02:28:02.740 | And it took like three, four hours a day.

02:28:06.220 | - Oh God.

02:28:07.220 | - Yeah.

02:28:08.060 | - Sounds like torture.

02:28:08.900 | - And not, you know,

02:28:10.100 | and constantly asking myself, what am I doing with my life?

02:28:13.180 | This is why you're single was the voice in my head.

02:28:16.660 | This is what are you doing?

02:28:18.220 | It's like face down on the carpet.

02:28:19.980 | (laughing)

02:28:21.660 | Like exhausted.

02:28:23.100 | Like what, what?

02:28:24.700 | Because of a tweet?

02:28:25.740 | What is this?

02:28:26.860 | - Did you record it or you just--

02:28:28.500 | - I did, I did record it for myself.

02:28:30.340 | - Okay.

02:28:31.180 | - Now imagine doing this every day

02:28:32.900 | and that's what it's like to be a Twitch streamer.

02:28:34.940 | Just kidding.

02:28:35.780 | - Right. - Doing stupid things.

02:28:37.100 | - Thanks for the content.

02:28:37.940 | - That was really important to me actually

02:28:39.220 | to not make it into content.

02:28:41.100 | You know, I recorded everything.

02:28:43.340 | So maybe one day I could publish it.

02:28:44.980 | I recorded it mostly because it's really hard to count.

02:28:48.380 | - Yeah.

02:28:49.220 | - When you get exhausted.

02:28:50.380 | - Yeah.

02:28:51.220 | - Like I just, so you actually enter the Zen place

02:28:54.660 | where with pushups, where it's just like,

02:28:58.100 | it's almost like, like breathing.

02:28:59.700 | You get into a rhythm and you can do quite a lot.

02:29:02.620 | But I wanted to make sure, like,

02:29:04.100 | if I actually get this done,

02:29:05.580 | I want there to be evidence that I got it done

02:29:08.900 | for myself so I can count it.

02:29:10.500 | I had this idea that I would use machine learning

02:29:12.220 | to like automatically process the video to count it.

02:29:15.100 | But then like after like 10 days,

02:29:17.540 | I didn't even give a shit what anyone thought.

02:29:19.020 | It was about me versus me.

02:29:20.260 | (laughing)

02:29:21.180 | I didn't even care.

02:29:22.020 | - That's the main thing.

02:29:22.860 | - Lex versus Lex.

02:29:23.700 | - Yeah.

02:29:24.540 | And then, yeah.

02:29:25.940 | And David was extremely supportive.

02:29:27.500 | But that's when I realized like,

02:29:28.660 | I really want to go head to head with him.

02:29:31.160 | Yeah, those kinds of people are beautiful.

02:29:34.700 | They really challenge you to your limits,

02:29:35.980 | whatever that is.

02:29:37.140 | It's like, the thing is physical exercise

02:29:40.100 | is such an easy way to push yourself to your limit.

02:29:42.820 | There's in all other walks of life,

02:29:44.620 | it's trickier to configure.

02:29:46.380 | Like how do you push yourself to your limits in chess?

02:29:48.780 | It's hard to figure out.

02:29:50.420 | But like in physical--

02:29:51.260 | - Do you think it's ever dangerous?

02:29:53.180 | - Yeah.

02:29:54.020 | And that's why it's beautiful.

02:29:56.100 | The danger--

02:29:56.940 | - She just likes the pain.

02:29:57.780 | I don't like that your eyes lit up as I said.

02:30:00.020 | - Yeah.

02:30:01.260 | - Like if you don't know how you're gonna get out of it,

02:30:04.780 | you're gonna have to figure out something profound

02:30:07.260 | about yourself.

02:30:09.240 | And I mean, one of the reasons I went to Ukraine

02:30:13.060 | is I really wanted to experience the hardship

02:30:18.060 | and the intensity of war that people are experiencing

02:30:23.980 | so I can understand myself better,

02:30:25.980 | I can understand them better.

02:30:27.440 | So the words that are leaving my mouth are grounded

02:30:30.740 | in a better understanding of who they are.

02:30:32.860 | I mean, the running a lot with David Gong

02:30:36.060 | is a much simpler thing to do,

02:30:39.340 | simpler way to understand something about yourself,

02:30:42.420 | about like the limits of human nature.

02:30:44.460 | I think most growth happens with voluntary suffering

02:30:47.740 | or struggle, involuntary self,

02:30:50.220 | that's where the dark trauma is created.

02:30:52.680 | But I don't know, maybe it is,

02:30:55.860 | maybe I'm just attracted to torture.

02:30:57.500 | - And what is it that your mind does

02:30:59.540 | when you're going through this involuntary suffering?

02:31:03.060 | - I think,

02:31:03.900 | there's like stages.

02:31:15.900 | First, all the excuses start coming,

02:31:17.780 | like, why are you doing this?

02:31:20.380 | And then you start to wonder like,

02:31:23.380 | what kind of person do you want to be?

02:31:26.940 | So all the dreams you had,

02:31:28.420 | all the promises you made to yourself and to others,

02:31:30.440 | all the ambitions you had that haven't come yet realized,

02:31:34.540 | somehow that all becomes really intensely like visceral

02:31:39.540 | as the struggle is happening.

02:31:41.500 | And then when all of that is allowed to pass from your mind,

02:31:46.500 | you have this clear appreciation

02:31:49.300 | of what you really love in life,

02:31:50.800 | which is just like just living,

02:31:53.020 | just the moment, the like, step at a time.

02:31:57.300 | I think what meditation does and it's most effective,

02:32:00.060 | it's just that pain is a catalyst

02:32:02.460 | for the meditative process, I think.

02:32:05.020 | For me, for me, I don't know.

02:32:07.900 | Magnus said there's no meaning to life.

02:32:10.700 | Do you guys agree?

02:32:11.600 | Or no?

02:32:14.420 | Why are we here?

02:32:15.500 | - I do not know why we're here,

02:32:20.500 | but I do know that having some kind of meaning

02:32:26.580 | that I give my own life makes it

02:32:29.180 | a lot more motivating every day.

02:32:32.000 | So I just try to focus on finding meaning within my own life,

02:32:34.980 | even if I know it's just self-imposed.

02:32:37.400 | - And then chess is a part of that?

02:32:40.720 | - Chess is a part of it.

02:32:44.860 | Maybe it was more so when I was younger

02:32:47.780 | 'cause it was easier to just feel like

02:32:50.100 | I want to improve as a person

02:32:52.140 | and to use chess to kind of measure

02:32:55.060 | some kind of self-improvement.

02:32:57.220 | And now it's more different than that.

02:33:00.460 | And I think I need to once again find

02:33:02.860 | what that Northern Star is.

02:33:06.940 | Basically, I need to have a why for why I'm doing things

02:33:09.740 | and then I feel like I could do very hard things.

02:33:12.240 | - What role does love play in the human condition?

02:33:18.500 | Alex and Andrea.

02:33:20.300 | - I'll let Andrea start this one since I took the last.

02:33:23.140 | - Sure, and yeah, just to add my answer for the last one.

02:33:26.820 | I also kind of think, well, life is meaningless,

02:33:30.740 | but I like the stoic idea where that's something

02:33:32.820 | that you live to revolt against.

02:33:35.260 | But for the second question.

02:33:37.440 | - The revolt against the fundamental meaninglessness

02:33:41.180 | of life, I like it. - Yes, exactly.

02:33:43.260 | - Yeah.

02:33:44.300 | - It was what does love play?

02:33:45.780 | What role does love play?

02:33:47.100 | - Yeah, in the human condition.

02:33:48.660 | - The way I see it,

02:33:51.240 | I, love is a reason you want to share experiences

02:33:56.240 | with other people.

02:33:59.200 | That's how I see it.

02:34:00.040 | Like the people you really love,

02:34:01.320 | you wanna share the things you're going through with them.

02:34:04.220 | - The good and the bad.

02:34:06.520 | - Yeah, exactly.

02:34:08.040 | That's my simple take on love.

02:34:09.820 | - My take on it is that part of what it is to be human

02:34:16.820 | is to be somebody who feels things emotionally

02:34:20.600 | and love is one of the most intense feelings you can have.

02:34:25.260 | Obviously there's the opposite of that

02:34:28.480 | and there's things like hate,

02:34:30.060 | but I think the love you feel for people like your parents

02:34:33.200 | and your friends and romantic love in that moment

02:34:35.760 | is much more intense than in other situations.

02:34:40.100 | And I think it's also just very unique to humans

02:34:44.480 | and that's what I appreciate about it.

02:34:46.920 | - Maybe that's the meaning of life.

02:34:49.400 | Maybe that's what the Stoics are searching for.

02:34:52.240 | Andrea, Alex, thank you so much for this

02:34:54.640 | and thank you for an amazing conversation.

02:34:56.680 | Thank you for creating, keep creating

02:34:58.640 | and thank you for putting knowledge and love

02:35:01.480 | out there in the world.

02:35:02.920 | - Thank you for having us, Lex.

02:35:04.520 | - It was a pleasure.

02:35:05.760 | - And we're both big fans of your podcast,

02:35:08.420 | so this was really exciting for us.

02:35:10.260 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:35:12.640 | with Alexandra and Andrea Botez.

02:35:15.000 | To support this podcast,

02:35:16.200 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:35:18.840 | And now let me leave you with some words from Bobby Fisher.

02:35:21.800 | Chess is life.

02:35:24.640 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

02:35:28.440 | (upbeat music)

02:35:31.020 | (upbeat music)

02:35:33.600 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Botez Sisters: Chess, Streaming, and Fame | Lex Fridman Podcast #319

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