The Friendship Recession: Why So Many Young Men Feel Lost, Lonely & Single Today

00:00:00.000 | The friend ship recession.

00:00:03.000 | Are we in a friend ship recession?

00:00:06.860 | If so, is it a problem?

00:00:08.420 | And if it's a problem, what's the right way to solve it?

00:00:11.440 | What's the right way to build from scratch a robust series

00:00:16.100 | of friendships in your life?

00:00:17.120 | This seems really tightly connected to our broader vision and living a

00:00:20.560 | deeper life in a distracted world, especially in a world where we have

00:00:23.460 | these social apps and text messaging tools that give us the illusion

00:00:27.240 | of being connected to people.

00:00:28.980 | But don't trick our brain into thinking that we're actually being social.

00:00:31.860 | Real friends matter now than they ever have before.

00:00:34.160 | So in order to talk about this, I'm going to bring on a special guest.

00:00:37.960 | That's a long time, a friend of mine and a long time friend of the show.

00:00:41.960 | It's a comedian and podcaster, Jamie Kilstein.

00:00:45.160 | I'm bringing him on because he recently went through a process of building up.

00:00:48.960 | A robust group of male friendships in his forties.

00:00:53.680 | So I figured he would have a lot to teach us about what worked and what didn't.

00:00:59.240 | So let's get Jamie on the line now to talk about the friendship recession.

00:01:03.100 | Jamie, I brought you on because, you know, we were actually just

00:01:05.580 | talking about this topic offline and I was thinking, wait a second, save it.

00:01:09.500 | Let's do this in public because I guess that's what we do these days.

00:01:13.700 | Everything is in public.

00:01:14.820 | So anyways, thanks for coming on and helping me figure out this topic.

00:01:18.640 | Now, is that term though, friendship recession, is that one you had heard,

00:01:21.880 | or is that just us being geeky?

00:01:24.780 | Yeah, I was going to say, I haven't heard it because I have friends that I'm

00:01:27.800 | hanging out with and not reading your dorky newspapers.

00:01:30.700 | Uh, no, it, uh, uh, it makes, it's something that I haven't heard that term,

00:01:37.460 | but when you said it, it hit me so hard in my heart that I was like, oh yeah, that.

00:01:43.160 | I mean, I think about, it just automatically made me think about the

00:01:46.640 | years I was just drowning and didn't even think about the fact that I had like.

00:01:53.140 | No male friends and that I was just trying to fill the void with everything else,

00:01:59.480 | you know, girls career, you know, whatever.

00:02:01.780 | Um, and yeah, so I mean, it, it, it makes total sense.

00:02:05.460 | Um, but I also think there's some easy fixes we can get into.

00:02:08.600 | Um, but yeah, I'm here for it.

00:02:10.440 | And I'm also glad you introduced me as your friend, because that would have

00:02:12.720 | been a real sad turn to this segment.

00:02:15.340 | Or, or my, or just my only friend, maybe that would have set the segment up better.

00:02:21.040 | Although dude, I do feel like podcasters, I don't want to get too, uh, too esoteric,

00:02:25.980 | but I do feel like we make our friends.

00:02:28.480 | I mean, this will tie into actually social.

00:02:30.820 | I mean, I think a lot of people have convinced themselves that if they talk to

00:02:34.500 | a lot of people on Twitter or social media, that they're actual friends and it's

00:02:39.160 | like, or I mean, even like girls on only fans and it's like, no, that is not a

00:02:44.220 | real connection, it's artificial.

00:02:45.560 | And even for us, for podcasters, you know, I consider guys friends.

00:02:50.780 | And then I realized I've just podcasted with them.

00:02:53.140 | Right.

00:02:53.940 | Frequent guest on your podcast does not equate to a male, male friendship.

00:03:01.420 | Like I've been on your show like four times, like, come on, we're best friends.

00:03:03.940 | Um, let me show you, I'll show you, let me show you the actual

00:03:07.700 | article that coined this term.

00:03:09.400 | We'll look at a couple of the claims here and see if we're all on the same page.

00:03:14.260 | All right.

00:03:14.700 | So as far as I can tell, this Daniel Cox article from a couple of years ago from

00:03:19.700 | the national review is where the term friendship recession was introduced.

00:03:22.820 | It was then supercharged by Richard Reeves doing a big think interview more

00:03:27.340 | recently, but I think this was the original source.

00:03:30.020 | It just didn't spread as much back then.

00:03:31.460 | I guess we were still thinking about pandemics and such.

00:03:34.380 | Uh, so here's a couple of quotes from this article just to put us on the same

00:03:37.740 | page, um, as Americans try to rebuild and reconnect a new survey conducted by the

00:03:42.820 | survey center on American life finds that the social landscape is far less favorable.

00:03:47.340 | Then it once was over the past three decades, the number of close

00:03:50.100 | friends Americans have has plummeted.

00:03:53.140 | This friendship recession first use of that term in print, I believe

00:03:57.380 | is particularly bad for men.

00:03:58.900 | The percentage of men with at least six close friends fell by half since 1990.

00:04:03.580 | From 55% to 27%.

00:04:05.900 | The study also found the percentage of men without any close friends

00:04:08.700 | jumped from 3% to 15%, a five fold increase.

00:04:13.100 | Single men have fared worse.

00:04:16.460 | Uh, I also heard the author Richard Reeves, when he was talking about this

00:04:19.220 | more recently cite a study that said loneliness is equivalent from a health

00:04:24.300 | perspective to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

00:04:28.580 | All right.

00:04:28.860 | So we've got a couple of things.

00:04:29.780 | When you smoke a cigarette, you look cool when you're just lonely.

00:04:33.300 | What a bummer.

00:04:34.220 | Well, and also you, you're going to get friends if you smoke cigarettes

00:04:36.980 | because they're going to think you're awesome.

00:04:39.620 | Go smoke cigarettes.

00:04:41.060 | What are you doing?

00:04:41.940 | What was that on a podcast?

00:04:44.180 | Um, yeah, man, that, uh, you know, I mean, geez, I'm even thinking about.

00:04:49.580 | I think I have really healthy male friendships now for the first time in my

00:04:54.380 | life, it's helped me a lot, but as you were reading that, I started to think

00:04:59.180 | like how rare it is, so like my brother is still friends with like his best

00:05:04.100 | friends from high school and my reaction to that is like, what's wrong with you

00:05:08.020 | guys when that probably is like, it's so healthy, it's so good.

00:05:13.540 | And yeah, how that ties into loneliness.

00:05:15.900 | I really think that a huge part of it is we're getting these false

00:05:23.980 | senses of friendship from the internet.

00:05:26.180 | You know, Oh, me and all these people are mad at Ted Cruz on Twitter.

00:05:29.860 | That's, that's my posse, right.

00:05:31.820 | Or, or again, I mean, only family I've never, I have girlfriends

00:05:35.700 | who have only fan pages.

00:05:36.940 | I've never talked to them about it, but I've never subscribed, but

00:05:40.820 | apparently it is, uh, you know, you're, you're talking back and forth to them.

00:05:46.780 | Like you're in a relationship or like you're, you know, whatever.

00:05:50.620 | And so if you're already lonely and nervous about the real world or

00:05:55.260 | nervous to date or whatever, and then you just have these tools like, Hey,

00:05:58.660 | here's a sense of it.

00:06:00.460 | Um, I can just see how that would just like spiral into utter despair.

00:06:04.980 | Right, right.

00:06:06.020 | There's a technological element also explaining this.

00:06:08.780 | I cited some of these studies in my book, digital minimalism.

00:06:12.780 | These at the time, they seemed paradoxical, but these studies that

00:06:15.740 | showed when social media use went up, so did loneliness, and then the social

00:06:20.740 | psychologist followed up and said, what's going on here?

00:06:23.100 | And they introduced this term, social snacking, where they said, as you use

00:06:26.500 | social media more, you convince yourself that you're getting your

00:06:29.780 | daily dose of social interaction.

00:06:31.940 | So you do less of the analog social interaction, but our brain does not

00:06:36.340 | recognize digital interaction, especially just text-based interaction, like on a

00:06:40.820 | text message screen or leaving comments on Instagram, our brain doesn't recognize

00:06:45.700 | that as interacting.

00:06:46.580 | So you think you're social deeper in your brain.

00:06:49.060 | They're saying we haven't interacted with a human in weeks and you feel

00:06:51.900 | sort of paradoxically lonely.

00:06:53.340 | So technology, it made this worse is what it, what it sounds.

00:06:57.380 | Well, I mean, you know, you eat a, you eat two buckets of KFC chicken and

00:07:02.060 | you're like, all right, I'm really full and feel sick.

00:07:04.180 | And I guess I got my protein intake, but it's just like, are you actually

00:07:08.180 | getting like substance?

00:07:09.620 | You know, it's that's why, you know, when friends of mine or me even would

00:07:15.260 | like really poor and younger, you just eat a bunch of fast food because you're

00:07:19.300 | like, well, this is cheap and I'm getting so much.

00:07:21.740 | And it's like, yeah, but you're not, you're getting so much like, and you're

00:07:25.220 | getting all these empty calories.

00:07:26.820 | You're not getting real, you know, nutrition.

00:07:29.260 | And so really similar.

00:07:30.740 | Now, let me, before we get to, I want to get to the specifics of your

00:07:33.580 | transformation, because it's very interesting to me, your friend

00:07:36.500 | transformation, but just because you're, you're more in touch with the culture

00:07:40.660 | around us than I am, because, you know, I'm married with a bunch of kids and I'm

00:07:44.500 | too busy and don't know what's going on.

00:07:46.020 | And I'm a nerd.

00:07:46.580 | That was kind of a nice way of being like, you're, uh, you're sad and, uh,

00:07:52.420 | don't have a family.

00:07:53.500 | Yeah.

00:07:54.380 | So when it comes to sad family list people, I think number one person.

00:07:59.420 | Yeah.

00:08:01.140 | You and Jennifer Aniston, like these are the two, um, no, but when you just look

00:08:06.220 | around, you're, you're, you're out in the world more than I am.

00:08:08.980 | Do you buy that?

00:08:10.380 | It's, this is worse in general.

00:08:11.900 | Like when you're talking to other men, when you see other men, uh, you know,

00:08:15.620 | in your social circles, are people, are you seeing this?

00:08:18.500 | Are people lonely?

00:08:19.380 | Are people talking about it?

00:08:20.460 | What's the word from the street, Jamie?

00:08:22.740 | Yeah.

00:08:23.620 | Men are desperate for connection and it is.

00:08:27.580 | You know, it's, it's hard, man.

00:08:29.700 | It's weird.

00:08:30.380 | Uh, because it's hard enough to find a girlfriend, to find someone to date, to

00:08:36.420 | ask someone out, let alone, you're kind of doing the same thing, but like with a

00:08:42.220 | dude, you know what I mean?

00:08:43.740 | Like I even noticed that, and I'm sure the guys listening to this can like cop to

00:08:48.100 | this as I remember, I just became really good friends with my, uh, my trainer, the

00:08:54.940 | dude who trains me at the gym.

00:08:57.020 | And you know, I would come home and I would like light up to my girlfriend

00:09:02.980 | about him just like you would when you met a girl.

00:09:06.500 | I was like, Oh my God, Travis, like he's so sweet.

00:09:09.660 | And like, he's like really pushing me harder.

00:09:11.500 | And like, I felt like I, like I PR today and then we got in the sauna and like,

00:09:14.780 | man, we were talking about like spirituality and suddenly like, as I'm

00:09:18.220 | describing him, I'm like, Oh, this is how I would describe, Oh my God, I just met

00:09:21.540 | this girl.

00:09:21.940 | She's so cute.

00:09:22.620 | Like we vibe on the same things.

00:09:23.940 | We have the same goals, blah, blah, blah.

00:09:25.580 | And, uh, but it, it, it, it takes a little bit of like security, you know?

00:09:33.700 | I mean, Cal, when we grew up, everything was called gay.

00:09:38.740 | It's like, Oh, you're showing emotion.

00:09:41.460 | Oh, you're, you know, in touch with your feelings.

00:09:44.020 | Like, Oh, you're hanging out with that.

00:09:45.300 | And so like, I really do think there's this weird part in men where it's like,

00:09:52.020 | we want so desperately that male connection.

00:09:54.820 | Like jujitsu so popular.

00:09:56.780 | Um, you know, we, we, we, we've, we've gone from handshakes to like bro hug, but

00:10:01.100 | like full hug is only for like really good.

00:10:02.900 | Like there is, uh, we crave that camaraderie, but it's also like, we don't

00:10:09.340 | want to be weird.

00:10:10.260 | Um, especially as you get older, I mean, making friends in general is super hard.

00:10:16.500 | What, I mean, do you think something has changed about that?

00:10:20.260 | So in other words, in 1990, that was the end point of that article that like in

00:10:23.860 | 1990 compared to now there's been this five fold increase in not having close

00:10:28.660 | friends, et cetera.

00:10:29.660 | Was there, I mean, there must be a pathway to male friendships that existed in the

00:10:35.940 | dozen now, because of course it's not that in 1990, we were much more comfortable,

00:10:39.860 | you know, expressing feel that's when we grew up, right.

00:10:42.420 | As you were saying, this was where, uh, yeah, if you were in touch with your

00:10:46.260 | feelings, that was gay.

00:10:47.060 | But if you used a phrase, you're in touch with your feelings, that too was gay.

00:10:49.620 | And so it all sort of recursively piled up on itself.

00:10:51.900 | So what was it?

00:10:53.540 | There must've been, maybe it's just the, the, the, the role of work maybe was more

00:10:57.900 | stability and location.

00:10:59.380 | You didn't move so much.

00:11:00.380 | Maybe it was church.

00:11:01.380 | Maybe it was family earlier.

00:11:03.060 | There's gotta be something that was a cheat code for male friendships.

00:11:06.700 | Then when that was removed, it was suddenly to use a metaphor from our

00:11:10.300 | childhood.

00:11:10.900 | You couldn't beat the boss and Contra because you no longer had the, you no

00:11:14.620 | longer had the super gun or whatever.

00:11:16.080 | I don't really know what that would be.

00:11:17.340 | I don't know if you have any thoughts about 1990 versus now.

00:11:20.580 | No.

00:11:20.940 | So I think that it definitely has to do with the internet and it just has to do

00:11:24.460 | with like less social gatherings in general.

00:11:26.620 | Right.

00:11:27.020 | So I was always a girlfriend guy.

00:11:30.900 | I believe the term is codependent and I would always just, my relationship was

00:11:35.620 | everything.

00:11:36.180 | And when I broke up, that's why this breakup going through now is super weird.

00:11:40.020 | And actually I'm leaning on male friendships for the first time because

00:11:43.860 | usually I lose a girlfriend and I go, ah, I gotta go to the next girlfriend.

00:11:47.980 | Right?

00:11:48.140 | Like that's the only option for connection.

00:11:51.300 | And so I think like, if you look at 1990, there were just more gatherings, right?

00:11:56.860 | More people went to church.

00:11:58.180 | There were, if you were a liberal, you were unions, you, you know, you, you

00:12:02.620 | weren't working from home as much.

00:12:04.380 | Yeah.

00:12:04.500 | You went to an office, you went to an office every day.

00:12:06.820 | The last time I had friends was like my football team in high school.

00:12:10.340 | And I've been like getting out of shape.

00:12:12.260 | It's like, go to a gym, join a CrossFit, do jujitsu.

00:12:16.180 | I mean, if I didn't do jujitsu, I'd probably still have zero male friends.

00:12:20.620 | That was the thing for me.

00:12:22.020 | So you do something cool and challenging with guys who, you know, you.

00:12:29.180 | All like most of my male friends I look up to.

00:12:32.300 | Yeah.

00:12:33.020 | And I don't know if people think, you know, when they're, when, when, when

00:12:37.220 | they're looking for friends that like, they have to be the cool one.

00:12:40.260 | And it's like, no, you don't want a bunch of little like mean girl underlings.

00:12:43.700 | Like you will be good enough.

00:12:46.340 | People love helping other people.

00:12:48.620 | You know?

00:12:49.100 | I mean, the fighters I hang out with are the best fighters in the world.

00:12:52.820 | And they're not like, you can't hang out with us until you become

00:12:55.420 | the best fighter in the world.

00:12:56.340 | I give something else to that circle and then they build me up

00:12:59.380 | and make me a better fighter.

00:13:00.700 | Um, and so literally just like, again, this, it sounds like they

00:13:05.380 | didn't advise shoot your shot.

00:13:06.820 | Yeah.

00:13:07.820 | Well, okay.

00:13:08.820 | And it's like, uh, when you're talking about hanging out with the best fighters

00:13:11.540 | in the world, uh, I can't help, but think about the, the guy from blood sport.

00:13:16.060 | Whose main fighting style was the just boom, the guy with the beard and the,

00:13:21.020 | and the American with the Harley Davidson shirt, but him hanging out with John

00:13:23.860 | Claude Van Damme or David Dukes as the character's name was probably, uh, really

00:13:29.180 | life affirming for him until, uh, he was put into a coma by being too cocky about

00:13:33.820 | knocking out the guy with the giant pecs.

00:13:36.060 | But I think this is, it's very apt, right?

00:13:37.900 | It, it raised his element, but okay.

00:13:39.780 | So this is what I want to get to now.

00:13:41.220 | So we're gonna talk about

00:13:42.820 | be friended, all of those drug locks Jamaican instead of killing them.

00:13:48.060 | Would he have, would he have found a healthier inner life balance?

00:13:52.540 | I think so.

00:13:53.260 | I just read a book about Steven Seagal, by the way, this is a different story, but

00:13:57.700 | okay.

00:13:59.100 | We'll talk about that afterwards.

00:14:00.140 | Cause I became friends with his daughter.

00:14:01.580 | Who's very nice.

00:14:02.460 | Uh, but I have so many questions for her that I'm just like, like sitting on.

00:14:06.500 | Oh my God.

00:14:07.340 | It was such a weird, it was a whole, it was a whole book about

00:14:09.580 | 1980s action films and all of those actors.

00:14:12.820 | Um, weird, interesting, fantastical, terrible.

00:14:17.460 | It's just, okay.

00:14:18.380 | Anyways.

00:14:18.700 | Uh, we'll put that aside.

00:14:20.860 | I mean, I think what we're trying to build towards is we would like

00:14:22.900 | a Steven Seagal to be our friend.

00:14:24.260 | All right, but let's go back to, let's go to your life though.

00:14:27.180 | Right?

00:14:27.340 | Because my, my understanding is, um, you recently added, you made male

00:14:32.460 | friendships really for the first time in a long time, a big part of your life.

00:14:35.940 | My understanding of your timeline, tell me if I have this wrong, but here's my,

00:14:39.020 | here's my Jamie Kilstein timeline.

00:14:40.460 | All right.

00:14:40.820 | This always makes me nervous.

00:14:42.020 | You're living in LA more or less just hanging out with Moby.

00:14:45.780 | Yeah.

00:14:46.660 | Then you move to Arizona.

00:14:50.860 | And as far as I can tell, you were living in a retirement community.

00:14:53.660 | So you're essentially hanging out with, with, uh, um, old ladies.

00:14:57.420 | Yeah.

00:14:57.780 | And like elderly Mexican men, then you moved to Austin and it's somehow, once

00:15:03.140 | you got to Austin, you now seem to have a lot of friends that you do things with.

00:15:06.100 | All right.

00:15:06.380 | So give us the story here.

00:15:08.540 | How did you get friends?

00:15:09.820 | Like what as a 40 year old male at the time in Austin, Texas, what happened?

00:15:14.260 | Okay.

00:15:15.380 | So here's what I think happened.

00:15:17.580 | And again, this is very similar to dating advice that time in Arizona,

00:15:24.780 | when I was like kind of a hermit.

00:15:27.420 | Um, so I moved to Arizona with an ex-girlfriend of mine because we were in

00:15:32.700 | LA and we were clearly settling for each other, but we were both nice enough.

00:15:39.500 | We were just, it was my only dating app, uh, relationship.

00:15:42.420 | And we were just like, she was tired of creepy guys.

00:15:44.860 | I was tired of like LA girls on the internet.

00:15:47.340 | And, um, we just so desperately wanted to make it work that we were like, you

00:15:53.180 | know what, this it's probably LA's fault.

00:15:55.460 | It's probably not us.

00:15:56.220 | We should just leave LA.

00:15:57.460 | And so I end up in, so we go to air, we literally picked a place randomly on the

00:16:02.100 | map and so we were outside of Tucson, Arizona and not surprisingly, um, we

00:16:07.020 | broke up, um, I think probably like a year after living in Arizona, like

00:16:11.620 | right before COVID happened.

00:16:12.940 | So my first time as being a single adult male was over COVID.

00:16:18.740 | Um, which is, Oh boy.

00:16:21.580 | Um, it's a really like a do or die situation, which is like, am I going to

00:16:27.100 | kill myself or am I going to do what I probably should have done a long time ago,

00:16:32.660 | which is like figure out who I am.

00:16:34.140 | The year that I spent by myself was the first time that I figured out who I

00:16:39.260 | really was and I couldn't try to fill that gap with, so now I have this breakup.

00:16:46.340 | It was a loving breakup.

00:16:47.260 | It was a sad breakup.

00:16:48.140 | I had this breakup with, with my girlfriend and I have to fight the urge to be

00:16:56.620 | like, okay, just find a new girlfriend because usually we're so used to kind of

00:17:01.220 | like adapting, um, to whoever, like the next person is COVID did not allow me to

00:17:07.620 | do, there was no other option.

00:17:08.980 | I couldn't date.

00:17:10.180 | I couldn't have friends.

00:17:11.500 | I couldn't do any of this stuff.

00:17:12.700 | And so for your listeners who are really lonely right now and are struggling, I

00:17:17.700 | can say that the first thing you should do before you date, before you even make

00:17:23.260 | male friends is figure out like, who are you?

00:17:26.180 | Because that year I was reading books.

00:17:30.380 | I was finally watching the movies I wanted to watch.

00:17:32.980 | I was like taking walks in nature.

00:17:35.540 | I started meditating.

00:17:36.940 | I was doing all these things on my own.

00:17:38.740 | Yeah.

00:17:39.300 | So, so what you're saying is, so you got, uh, familiar with yourself.

00:17:43.780 | Yep.

00:17:44.460 | Took the time to actually be with yourself.

00:17:46.420 | And I, and I would add the addendum to that, which you're not going to do by

00:17:50.380 | spending more time on screen.

00:17:51.780 | So we'll just add in that caveat.

00:17:53.340 | Notice every example, Jamie gave walks, meditation, getting back into activities

00:17:58.540 | he had enjoyed before reading books, watching movies, none of this was, um,

00:18:02.580 | fight on Twitter with your crew.

00:18:04.820 | Yeah.

00:18:05.540 | Yeah.

00:18:05.980 | Get your Instagram follower.

00:18:07.660 | Yeah.

00:18:07.820 | Yeah.

00:18:08.380 | Bus only fan.

00:18:09.820 | Like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no.

00:18:11.660 | Okay.

00:18:12.220 | Yeah.

00:18:13.100 | All right.

00:18:13.780 | So then you, so you, you got to know yourself and then it sounds like what

00:18:16.420 | happened was you use that to identify meaningful analog activity.

00:18:21.820 | Now that you had the self-reflection, you could identify, uh, like for you, for

00:18:26.220 | example, you got back in the jujitsu, which is something you had done very

00:18:28.780 | seriously, um, earlier in your life.

00:18:30.900 | Yeah.

00:18:31.420 | And then, uh, then church after that, which again was coming out of self-reflection.

00:18:35.140 | You were now very familiar.

00:18:36.060 | You were familiar enough with yourself that when you were sort of looking around

00:18:39.500 | and hanging out with the sort of spiritual, not religious types, like this

00:18:42.660 | isn't quite right, I think a church, but this church that required self.

00:18:46.180 | Knowledge, right.

00:18:47.180 | Yeah.

00:18:47.380 | You actually, I think of the church and was like, do I hate Moby?

00:18:50.500 | Um, but yeah, no, I mean like, dude, the, my superpower and the reason I'm not

00:18:56.580 | dead is like being able to like be self analytical, it started as self hate,

00:19:04.340 | which sometimes can backfire.

00:19:05.740 | Um, but yeah, just being like, why am I here?

00:19:09.100 | What?

00:19:09.300 | Because I also want to add that if you're looking for friends or a girl going to a

00:19:15.260 | bar every night, just like screens also isn't the answer, right?

00:19:19.100 | Because you feel like, well, I'm surrounded by people, but you're numbing yourself

00:19:23.900 | out, you're having vapid conversations.

00:19:26.020 | If you can even have a conversation over the music.

00:19:28.300 | Like, I always joke that I want to meet my next girlfriend, just like at a bookstore.

00:19:32.180 | Yeah.

00:19:32.580 | Um, like, I just want to like, we accidentally both reach for like the

00:19:36.140 | same, the graphic novel, the same Calvin and Hobbes book or something.

00:19:40.180 | Um, and, but I think that, and when we, when we were talking, you know, right

00:19:47.300 | before we went on air, um, about this, I did not think that this is where this was

00:19:52.620 | nowhere in my head that I was going to veer in this direction.

00:19:55.580 | Um, but as I talk about it, I realize, oh my God, this is the most important

00:20:01.380 | thing you can do, which sounds, um, uh, counterintuitive because we're

00:20:05.580 | talking about being lonely.

00:20:07.460 | So it's like, why would you want to spend more time with yourself?

00:20:10.020 | There is such a difference between, you know, if I stayed at home all day and

00:20:16.860 | just scrolled on Instagram and watched porn and, you know, texted my ex like,

00:20:23.260 | yeah, dude, that's a real lonely day by myself.

00:20:25.580 | But if I write and I go to the gym and maybe instead of having coffee here, I go

00:20:30.140 | to Starbucks and I asked the, the, the barista how they're doing, and I have

00:20:34.100 | that interaction and then I meditate and then I journal what I've.

00:20:37.340 | Like I'm waking up early, not sleep at the, I wake up at five 15.

00:20:40.460 | I don't have a job.

00:20:41.220 | I'm an artist.

00:20:41.780 | I'm a comic.

00:20:42.380 | I wake up at five 15 every day so that I can have that time to myself.

00:20:46.260 | Um, man, when I'm around people, that's how I can be my authentic self.

00:20:52.660 | And then when you're being your authentic self, you will attract, um, people who

00:20:57.020 | are like, oh, I like that guy.

00:20:58.220 | And you will also be able to walk away from, um, a circle of friends that

00:21:04.580 | maybe that's just, you know, whatever, whatever the hookup version is of, of

00:21:09.380 | friends.

00:21:09.980 | Yeah.

00:21:10.420 | Yeah.

00:21:10.820 | Okay.

00:21:11.300 | So then there's one final step here to get out the, the, the touch on.

00:21:14.540 | So we have the self-reflection leads to activities that are deeply meaningful.

00:21:17.820 | You're meeting people through those activities.

00:21:20.900 | So you're, you're now surrounded by people who are on the same wavelength.

00:21:24.380 | So this is clearly going to be a source of, uh, high quality friendships.

00:21:27.780 | I guess the final piece then is there's still a little bit of trigger polling

00:21:30.420 | that requires a little strategizing.

00:21:31.980 | We hinted at this earlier, but now it's like, I

00:21:34.420 | really like these guys.

00:21:35.220 | And we're on the same wavelength and, uh, they make me better.

00:21:39.420 | And I really like hanging out with them.

00:21:40.540 | So then there's that final piece, right?

00:21:42.340 | Okay.

00:21:42.660 | Now I have to just have the courage to say, and this is the dating analogy, but.

00:21:46.940 | Hey, you want to come watch the fight or do you want to come do whatever?

00:21:50.540 | So, so what did you discover about that?

00:21:52.140 | Is that as bad as men fear or is it just something you got to just go for?

00:21:56.900 | Yeah.

00:21:57.100 | I'm like, I'm running through because I'm also, um, I'm an introvert and so I'm

00:22:01.580 | not good at it.

00:22:02.380 | I seem very like bubbly and social in social settings.

00:22:06.740 | It's just cause I'm projecting and I'm terrified.

00:22:08.820 | Yeah.

00:22:09.420 | Um, so I definitely haven't been like, you know, Hey, do you want to go get

00:22:16.460 | coffee?

00:22:17.060 | I mean, I have my pastors, but that's like their job.

00:22:19.260 | Um, I feel like when my pastor's hanging out with me, that's like, if I was like,

00:22:22.980 | I had sex, but like I paid an escort, it's like, what is she supposed to do that?

00:22:26.100 | Um, my pastor see him sad, but like, okay.

00:22:29.860 | So be someone you would want to hang out with is number one, right?

00:22:37.180 | So if I go to jujitsu and I sit in the corner and scowl at everybody, um, I'm

00:22:44.660 | probably not going to get an invite to hang out.

00:22:46.460 | But if every time I go to spar with someone, I go, Hey man, what's your name?

00:22:51.300 | Great.

00:22:52.020 | And then we roll and I go, Hey, when you did this, that was really good.

00:22:55.220 | You know, blah, blah, blah.

00:22:55.980 | And then maybe they start coming and asking me for advice, you know, whatever.

00:22:59.060 | Um, maybe everyone, maybe you're the funny person.

00:23:03.420 | Maybe you're the person who just asked people how their day is.

00:23:06.140 | Maybe you just, you know, my, uh, my main jujitsu coach is this guy,

00:23:11.260 | Marcelo Garcia, who is the best in the world.

00:23:13.380 | So his gym was like packed, but every day he would go up and he would walk around

00:23:18.580 | while people were chatting and he would shake everyone's hand.

00:23:20.820 | Um, and so I try to do that when I go to a gym, I try to like, you know, if I'm

00:23:25.260 | teaching the kids class, I'll shake the parents hand, stuff like that.

00:23:28.140 | Um, and then through that, people just feel comfortable around you and maybe

00:23:32.540 | they start asking you questions and maybe they just become your gym buddy.

00:23:35.540 | I have dozens of gym buddies who I've never hung out with, but there are also

00:23:39.900 | people that if I show up and they go, Hey, how are you doing?

00:23:42.540 | I can tell them, Hey man, I'm struggling.

00:23:44.540 | I got this breakup and they will give me amazing advice before class.

00:23:49.220 | Um, then usually in these places, there are like group activities.

00:23:53.540 | So if you're going to a CrossFit gym or a jujitsu place, chances are, yeah,

00:23:57.900 | when there's a big pay-per-view, they're going to watch the fights and.

00:24:01.700 | You know, you can be so likable that they invite you.

00:24:07.820 | There have definitely been times where I'm like, I just have a good enough

00:24:11.820 | sense that I'm like, these guys like me, like they follow me on Instagram.

00:24:15.020 | Even if I don't follow them, like, I think they like me that I'll even be like,

00:24:19.260 | Hey guys, if there's ever room, like I'd love to watch the fights with you.

00:24:22.100 | You don't have to say, can I come and watch Izzy fight this Saturday?

00:24:25.580 | But you can go like, Hey, if there's ever, or if you're ever going out, um,

00:24:28.940 | one of my church friends, uh, this girl, AJ.

00:24:31.740 | The day after the breakup I go, Hey man, I gotta be more social.

00:24:36.420 | I know.

00:24:36.780 | Like, I usually say no when you guys like invite me out, but like, if there's

00:24:40.540 | ever anything going on, can you at least like float it to me?

00:24:43.140 | And she goes, Oh my God, I'm having a birthday dinner tonight.

00:24:46.340 | I was like, didn't want to invite.

00:24:47.940 | I figured you wouldn't want to go.

00:24:49.140 | Do you want to go?

00:24:50.140 | And I went and then I met a bunch of different church friends and now they've

00:24:54.140 | hit me up, um, the one piece of advice I really want to give, cause I know you

00:24:59.540 | won't give it on another piece, uh, on another episode is this is where social

00:25:04.460 | media can actually be kind of good.

00:25:06.620 | Um, and maybe I don't know if it's this, I think it's for normie people.

00:25:12.020 | Cause I have a bit of like an audience.

00:25:13.380 | So people think it's in my real life.

00:25:16.420 | If they don't know what I do, they think it's cool.

00:25:18.180 | And they follow me.

00:25:18.860 | But, um, I have had a couple people that I've met from jujitsu or church or

00:25:24.620 | whatever, that they'll find me on Instagram.

00:25:27.900 | And that kind of tells me, Oh, this person like likes me.

00:25:33.300 | And maybe when they write me on Instagram, you know, I can't write like

00:25:38.180 | every like random person back, but like when they write me, I go, Oh shit.

00:25:42.300 | Nehemiah from church is hitting me up.

00:25:44.540 | Like about my story.

00:25:45.660 | Like maybe I actually have more in common with him than I thought.

00:25:48.380 | And that will kind of like, um, that'll be an icebreaker for, cause I don't want

00:25:53.260 | to just, I have very low self-confidence.

00:25:55.340 | Um, so I don't assume people like me.

00:25:57.660 | Um, but if I see someone's like followed me on Instagram, I'm like, Oh, okay.

00:26:02.820 | But then where you will agree is then it's your job to not keep

00:26:06.620 | that relationship in Instagram.

00:26:08.580 | Right.

00:26:09.060 | I mean, you're describing like 2010 social media where it really was.

00:26:13.220 | Okay.

00:26:13.540 | My, my friends follow this.

00:26:15.300 | We keep up with each other.

00:26:17.020 | And sometimes I get a second order connection, like a friend of a friend

00:26:20.380 | who I sort of know is a way for them to interact with me.

00:26:23.380 | And that was the heyday of social media.

00:26:24.780 | It was just, yeah.

00:26:26.340 | Yes.

00:26:26.700 | That's different than being like, I'm friends with Tucker Carlson because we

00:26:29.820 | both hate the same people on Twitter.

00:26:31.700 | It was like, yeah, yeah.

00:26:32.860 | He liked a tweet of mine.

00:26:33.980 | Uh, all right.

00:26:34.660 | This is excellent.

00:26:35.260 | So I'm going to do what I do, which is try to reduce this all down to, uh,

00:26:38.820 | step-by-step advice for my listeners.

00:26:42.060 | So this is the Jamie Kilstein prescription.

00:26:45.260 | Um, well, first of all, the, the setup here is that especially for males, uh,

00:26:48.860 | friendships are really important, especially, uh, as you're getting to

00:26:52.660 | your thirties and forties, as we, as Jamie was talking about, it is, if

00:26:57.380 | anything, like a buffer against hard things that happen in your life,

00:27:00.180 | a, a, a source of motivation, et cetera.

00:27:02.820 | So you need them.

00:27:03.380 | Don't, don't just have, uh, don't just keep in touch with your high school

00:27:08.060 | buddies or just know like,

00:27:09.420 | I don't want to mess up your list, but I didn't go into nearly as much

00:27:13.460 | detail on that I was trying to get to the how to, but like, it has saved my life.

00:27:18.700 | A hundred percent.

00:27:19.700 | I have been going through so much for the last decade, 15 years of my life.

00:27:25.620 | That having strong male friends who I look up to be able to like, when I'm

00:27:32.340 | struggling, like this sounds so cheesy, but like put a hand on my shoulder and

00:27:36.020 | be like, dude, I see how hard you're working.

00:27:38.620 | You are going to be like, so good.

00:27:40.820 | You have no idea how far you've come since even the first day I met you and

00:27:45.500 | having another man tell you that you just go, Oh, like that's so much different

00:27:51.540 | than even like your wife being like, babe, you got this.

00:27:54.540 | It's just, it's different.

00:27:56.300 | Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's been.

00:27:58.940 | Yeah.

00:27:59.860 | Right.

00:28:00.540 | So, uh, fundamental, it's saved Jamie's life.

00:28:03.180 | Fundamental.

00:28:03.660 | Okay.

00:28:04.020 | Um, so, so how do we do this?

00:28:06.340 | Well, if we're going to, if we're going to make a prescription here, one, I

00:28:08.620 | would say go back to, you know, my digital declutter is a good starting place.

00:28:12.700 | The thing we talk about in digital minimalism, where you take 30 days away

00:28:16.500 | from all this optional technology, do self-reflection experimentation.

00:28:20.180 | We usually talk about the digital declutter just as a way of figuring

00:28:23.900 | out how to update your technology use.

00:28:25.940 | But now let's add that on as the first step towards upgrading your

00:28:30.300 | friendship situation, because during that 30 days of reflection experimentation,

00:28:34.900 | you get to know yourself better.

00:28:37.060 | Now, typically we say at the end of that 30 days, I look at your tech use fine,

00:28:40.500 | but let's add a new obligation here at the end of that 30 days, join something.

00:28:45.260 | Yeah.

00:28:46.140 | Join something based on what you discovered during that 30 day declutter

00:28:50.900 | that is going to surround you with other people who are on the same

00:28:54.460 | wavelength with your values.

00:28:56.140 | Um, and I would add to that.

00:28:57.740 | Being around those people will probably also bring other

00:29:01.340 | things into your radar to join.

00:29:03.340 | I mean, Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's, there's a synergy between

00:29:06.540 | uh, you getting back in the jujitsu and the church because there's,

00:29:09.100 | there's crossovers, right?

00:29:10.140 | Some of the people that the fighters you were meeting were also religious.

00:29:14.420 | And so these things cross pollinate, they weren't two separate thoughts.

00:29:17.260 | It was like, once you're in the world of people you admire and like to be

00:29:20.460 | around other meaningful things emerge.

00:29:22.580 | I mean, I got that right.

00:29:23.580 | Right.

00:29:23.780 | It was all these things sort of mixed together.

00:29:25.620 | Yeah.

00:29:26.420 | And that actually, that, that, that's another great tip, which is like, once

00:29:30.620 | you know yourself and you have these interests and these things that you

00:29:33.620 | love that are kind of different or whatever, you're going to be able to

00:29:36.500 | connect with these people and then you're going to be able to like, you know,

00:29:39.540 | like, you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:41.660 | You know, like, you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:43.780 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:45.820 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:47.580 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:49.420 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:51.020 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:52.300 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:53.340 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:54.940 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:56.100 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:58.020 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:29:59.940 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:01.140 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:02.420 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:03.620 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:05.020 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:06.420 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:07.780 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:09.460 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:11.020 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:12.420 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:13.940 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:16.100 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:17.620 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:18.860 | And then you're going to be able to connect with these people.

00:30:42.860 | And let me know.

00:30:43.860 | I mean, I have like this civilian commando gear.

00:30:50.260 | I've got this bear shaman, you know, mask helmet.

00:30:55.020 | Look, I have it, you know, whatever.

00:30:57.340 | You're raiding a building.

00:30:58.340 | Just let me know.

00:30:59.340 | Just going to collect dust.

00:31:00.340 | Just going to collect.

00:31:01.340 | I'm not using it, you know.

00:31:02.540 | I'm not using it.

00:31:03.700 | Let me know what could go wrong.

00:31:05.660 | I think everyone will forgive us.

00:31:07.140 | Yeah, that's a good turn.

00:31:09.220 | Yeah, good turn.

00:31:10.220 | Okay, so that, but here's what's cool about that advice though.

00:31:12.540 | Is like right now, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, you know what, this

00:31:16.100 | is me, I'm lonely.

00:31:17.460 | I'm online all the time and I'm feeling lonely.

00:31:20.460 | I have no backstop.

00:31:21.500 | This plan we're talking about, this is six months from right now, potentially to a very

00:31:25.980 | upgraded friend relationship.

00:31:27.100 | A month or so of self-reflection, you join things, get involved for a few months.

00:31:31.580 | That's it.

00:31:32.580 | Yeah, you do that.

00:31:34.000 | You're going to have at least a few new friends and then it's going to snowball from there,

00:31:37.460 | you know, and then like, well, this and some, you're going to tighten some friendships and

00:31:40.820 | others will loose.

00:31:41.820 | But that's it like six months from now.

00:31:43.300 | Uh, because it went fast for you, Jamie.

00:31:45.500 | So like give, give our listeners hope like six months from now, you really could be in

00:31:48.700 | a, a very positive social situation.

00:31:52.580 | Friendlines everything else, you know, it's like that builds you up.

00:31:57.140 | Um, so you become a more confident person.

00:31:59.780 | You being a more confident person leads to other things in your life.

00:32:02.960 | You know, I, this is very hard for me to say because I've been flamed by a lot of like

00:32:07.700 | constantly online people.

00:32:09.780 | But what I will say is like, while it is not healthy to only have these relationships online,

00:32:18.620 | clearly you're in, if you're listening to this, like you're intelligent, you're funny,

00:32:25.140 | right?

00:32:26.140 | Like, um, you make people laugh on Twitter or Reddit or whatever.

00:32:30.340 | Um, those skills that you have online, it's going to be nerve wracking at first, but they

00:32:38.340 | do translate, they do tra like if you can make people laugh online, you can make people

00:32:44.500 | laugh, um, in real life.

00:32:47.740 | It's just about building up that confidence and that's going to be a, you know, a step

00:32:51.980 | by step process and then show yourself grace.

00:32:54.840 | You know, um, if you do get nervous and you're like, oh, this is so stupid, you know, ever

00:32:59.840 | since I started reading, they were listening to self development podcasts or even with

00:33:04.060 | religion, um, the worst you can feel sometimes is before the breakthrough where you go, I'm

00:33:10.860 | doing the right stuff.

00:33:12.580 | Like I go to church now, why would I have a breakup?

00:33:16.040 | You know?

00:33:17.040 | Um, or I'm trying to make friends.

00:33:19.740 | I did everything Cal said and I showed up at the fights and I was too nervous and didn't

00:33:24.260 | say anything.

00:33:25.260 | I guess there's no hope.

00:33:26.420 | Nope.

00:33:27.420 | That's just the first step.

00:33:28.420 | And then the next time you're like, I'm going to talk a little more.

00:33:30.700 | And then the next time and you just keep piling on wins.

00:33:34.060 | Yep.

00:33:35.060 | And you look back and say, I'm glad I started right.

00:33:37.060 | Exactly.

00:33:38.060 | We did there.

00:33:39.060 | All right.

00:33:40.060 | Well, excellent.

00:33:41.060 | Well, this was great, Jamie.

00:33:42.060 | Um, just reminder for the audience, your podcast is the back row with Jamie Kilstein.

00:33:46.060 | What's that website, Jamie?

00:33:47.060 | Yeah, you can go to back row pod.com.

00:33:50.060 | Um, and there's the, the YouTube channel and I have a, I have a newsletter I do every week

00:33:55.340 | now where I'm writing about mental health and stuff like that.

00:33:58.460 | And, uh, yeah, we're talking about like the mental health spiritual journey, but also,

00:34:03.020 | um, they're getting a little more into like culture politics and trying to bring people

00:34:07.780 | together and laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.

00:34:11.300 | Yeah.

00:34:12.300 | Sounds, uh, with something to do with friends.

00:34:14.540 | All right, Jamie.

00:34:15.540 | Well, thanks for joining me.

00:34:16.540 | I look forward to talking to you again in four months.

00:34:20.500 | That's the way we do it.

00:34:21.500 | Bye old friend.

00:34:22.500 | Hey, if you liked this video, I think you'll really like this one as well.

The Friendship Recession: Why So Many Young Men Feel Lost, Lonely & Single Today | Cal Newport

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