Should You "Disappear" Before 2025 To Reinvent Yourself?

00:00:00.000 | All right, so several people recently have sent me the same video, which seems to be everywhere at the moment on YouTube.

00:00:09.000 | The video is called, "How to Disappear and Transform."

00:00:14.000 | Last time I checked, it had 2.5 million views and counting.

00:00:18.000 | Here's what I want to do today.

00:00:19.000 | I want to play a clip from this video.

00:00:22.000 | And I want to get into it.

00:00:23.000 | Because when I first watched this video, to be honest, I was a little taken aback.

00:00:28.000 | It seemed sort of Nietzschean in a vaguely unsettling way.

00:00:34.000 | But as I looked beyond its aesthetics, it became clear that there is a deeper issue at play that goes beyond the immediate audience and topic of the video.

00:00:42.000 | One that's probably relevant to you.

00:00:43.000 | So we're going to extract some deep truths from this very trendy video.

00:00:47.000 | All right, so to get started, I want to play the beginning of this video.

00:00:51.000 | If you're watching instead of just listening, we're going to put the video up in the corner here as well.

00:00:55.000 | But we'll have the audio for those who are just listening.

00:00:57.000 | All right, Jesse, let's load this up.

00:01:00.000 | The more you open your life up for display, the more people find a way to drag you down.

00:01:07.000 | It's a natural sociological phenomenon.

00:01:10.000 | There's something powerful about disappearing and working in the shadows.

00:01:15.000 | Becoming unavailable and committing to become the next version of you in secret can be exhilarating, exciting.

00:01:23.000 | Because you know that when you reappear, your transformation will shock the world.

00:01:28.000 | All right, Jesse, we can—

00:01:29.000 | The funny thing is, when you do—

00:01:30.000 | Cut him off there.

00:01:31.000 | First of all, I always love the music in popular videos.

00:01:36.000 | This, I say, I'm thinking Stranger Things.

00:01:39.000 | Yeah, it was really compelling.

00:01:40.000 | Yeah, that music is compelling.

00:01:42.000 | Again, I think we put that music behind anything we say here.

00:01:45.000 | It's going to seem a lot more compelling.

00:01:48.000 | Okay, so let's get into it a little bit.

00:01:50.000 | So the video, we see the main concept.

00:01:52.000 | Disappear.

00:01:54.000 | Beware.

00:01:56.000 | People don't know what you're doing.

00:01:58.000 | You're not talking about what you're doing.

00:01:59.000 | No one really knows what you're up to.

00:02:01.000 | Transform yourself and then reappear.

00:02:03.000 | I want to walk through just the—

00:02:05.000 | These are the chapters of the video.

00:02:07.000 | So these are kind of like the steps of the process.

00:02:09.000 | So disappear was step one.

00:02:10.000 | That's what we just heard about.

00:02:12.000 | Step two was shut it.

00:02:13.000 | Step three was only care.

00:02:16.000 | Step four was hide your plans.

00:02:19.000 | There's a big thing in this about don't talk to anybody about anything you're up to.

00:02:23.000 | They make one exception for if you have a life partner.

00:02:27.000 | Then we get step one, two, three, four, five.

00:02:30.000 | Hide progress.

00:02:32.000 | Hide pain.

00:02:33.000 | Pick targets.

00:02:35.000 | Crush it.

00:02:37.000 | Reprogram.

00:02:38.000 | And then reappear with a question mark, which is actually consequential.

00:02:42.000 | We'll see there in a second.

00:02:43.000 | Now, look, there's a certain feel to this video that is in the vein of like a young man.

00:02:50.000 | Really has that kind of like young man feel.

00:02:52.000 | Young man stepping away from society to grind through pain en route to some dream of becoming an ubermensch in a way that's going to awe all of their foes.

00:02:59.000 | That's why I had that Nietzsche reference from before.

00:03:01.000 | It really kind of has that feel to it.

00:03:03.000 | The examples of the goals that you might crush it in this video are also sort of very kind of young man online examples.

00:03:09.000 | One is getting shredded.

00:03:11.000 | They talk about in the video that you should consider, for example, moving your apartment to be next to the gym so that you can more easily spend more time in the gym.

00:03:20.000 | And then the other example is creating a business that "prints money."

00:03:25.000 | All right.

00:03:26.000 | For those of us who are in other stages of life, we're not sort of like an online young man.

00:03:30.000 | This idea of like retreating to an apartment next to the gym and completely cutting ourselves off from other people, it sounds unappealing.

00:03:36.000 | And it's easy to dismiss as like this is like a bro culture thing.

00:03:39.000 | This is like a very online thing.

00:03:40.000 | But as I was trying to digest this video with an open mind, I'm realizing there's a deeper issue in here that is relevant to many more of us.

00:03:51.000 | Okay.

00:03:52.000 | So for the generation who is the target audience of this video, here's the thing we have to keep in mind.

00:03:57.000 | Their online selves, that is the version of themselves that they present publicly online over various platforms, social platforms, bulletin boards, even like gaming platforms, discord, etc.

00:04:09.000 | Their online selves is a major part of just their overall general identity.

00:04:14.000 | And the problem that they are noticing is that their online selves attracts a lot of crap.

00:04:21.000 | Like this is endemic and unavoidable in almost any major online space that if your online self, so your discussion of yourself, your ideas, what you're up to, your life in any of these online spaces is going to attract trolling, is going to attract people who are telling you to check yourself.

00:04:38.000 | It's going to attract people who are going to put you down, make fun of what you're working on.

00:04:44.000 | I was just noticing this the other day.

00:04:46.000 | I was on a Reddit thread for Peter Attia fans because I met Peter and I read his book and I was looking up some information.

00:04:57.000 | Like you can't post anything on there without like 10% of the people responding.

00:05:01.000 | Why?

00:05:02.000 | However, whatever you're doing, whatever fitness thing you're doing, whatever metric that you're measuring, whatever biomarkers, it's not quite right.

00:05:08.000 | You don't know what's going on.

00:05:09.000 | All right.

00:05:10.000 | So for the generation where this online selves is actually like a major part of their selves, it really gives them this feel as if their social standing is always under threat.

00:05:23.000 | And that they're constantly being judged and they're often being judged poorly.

00:05:27.000 | So this is where you get this very strong push we see in this video, disappear, right?

00:05:32.000 | Because to remove yourself from those spaces for someone whose online self is such an integral part of their identity is a major act.

00:05:39.000 | It is is what requires the stranger things music and those big animations because it's a, it really is a major act in a way that.

00:05:46.000 | For me to like not go onto the Peter Attia Reddit thread is not like a transformative decision in my life.

00:05:53.000 | So rebuilding, uh, so what they're trying to do here, these people who are essentially born online is separate themselves from their online selves.

00:06:04.000 | And this is actually a pretty traumatic to do.

00:06:07.000 | But they are picking up in a very refined sense.

00:06:12.000 | This is like a refined amplified version of a problem that I think is relevant to the rest of us.

00:06:17.000 | So to explain what the general problem is here, uh, I want to clarify like a general framework.

00:06:22.000 | I like to use when thinking about the topics we talked about on this show.

00:06:25.000 | I primarily, I see myself when it, when it comes to a lot of my public facing writing is, uh, you would call it like a digital theorist or technology theorist.

00:06:35.000 | I think a lot about how technology impacts our lives and what we should do about it.

00:06:39.000 | Sometimes this gets obscured because the solutions to digital problems are often analog.

00:06:44.000 | We talk a lot about solutions.

00:06:46.000 | So we talk a lot about analog on here, but so much what I talked about has its roots in the digital.

00:06:51.000 | So the framework I use, we're going to apply it to this particular problem.

00:06:54.000 | The framework I like to use is I imagine that right now in the 21st century, homo sapiens exist in what I call the modern digital environment, the MDE.

00:07:03.000 | Right? We're in this sort of new kind of novel, um, environment as defined by networked digital technologies.

00:07:11.000 | The modern digital environment often conflicts with our paleolithic brains and bodies and our neolithic culture.

00:07:18.000 | In these mismatches, we get what I think of as disorders, which I mean in sort of the literal sense of disorders as, um, ways of living that are notably negative.

00:07:31.000 | So it's in these mismatches between our brains and culture, which are evolved in times long past with the modern digital environment, we get various disorders.

00:07:39.000 | And then we have to figure out how to address them at different levels as individuals, as communities and larger up as like cultures and governments even.

00:07:47.000 | Right? That's kind of my program.

00:07:49.000 | So let's apply that framework here.

00:07:51.000 | The relevant aspect of the modern digital environment that's causing a disorder in this case, I think, is the introduction of large scale conversation platforms.

00:08:00.000 | So any sort of digital platform in which a notably large number of people are brought together to have a conversation, that's what I call a large scale conversation platform.

00:08:12.000 | The most famous examples, of course, would be like Twitter/X or, you know, Instagram, potentially TikTok, et cetera.

00:08:20.000 | You have a huge number of people coming together for a conversation.

00:08:24.000 | What makes it large scale is the fact that any individual user is seen, of course, just a teeny, teeny minuscule fraction of the actual amount of communication that's happening.

00:08:33.000 | So that's very different, for example, than a conversation on like a WhatsApp group with 10 people where you see every message that everyone is sending.

00:08:41.000 | So what is the mismatch between this corner of the modern digital environment and ourselves, our species?

00:08:49.000 | I think it tricks the brain.

00:08:52.000 | So the problem is in a large scale conversation platform, you have a huge number of people saying things, responding back and forth, talking to each other.

00:09:02.000 | The platforms have to curate that down to a very tractable conversation for each individual user.

00:09:09.000 | Twitter/X has 600 million users.

00:09:11.000 | The number of tweets per day is astronomical.

00:09:13.000 | Of course, you're not seeing these all.

00:09:14.000 | You see kind of like a curated feed.

00:09:17.000 | TikTok has hundreds of millions of videos that are being posted.

00:09:21.000 | You can only see a couple hundred in a given day or whatever.

00:09:24.000 | So there's this huge curation that goes on.

00:09:26.000 | The curation brings down what you're seeing to seem very similar to a normal social conversation that you would have in a normal analog social context.

00:09:38.000 | So you're kind of looking for some threads on like Reddit that look interesting.

00:09:41.000 | You're jumping on or you're jumping on to some conversations on Twitter, for example.

00:09:46.000 | The scale of those conversations is recognizable as your brain is like, yeah, we're chatting with people around the fire.

00:09:51.000 | We're chatting with people at the town square because it's not that many people.

00:09:54.000 | They're talking back and forth.

00:09:55.000 | I said this.

00:09:56.000 | Some people talk back.

00:09:57.000 | It feels like you're at a town hall meeting.

00:10:00.000 | But in reality, of course, this is all being super curated.

00:10:04.000 | The real reality is like you say something.

00:10:07.000 | The next store you have Madison Square Garden full of people all like yelling things and responses.

00:10:13.000 | And someone comes through and it's like, hey, over there in section K in the 50th row, that person seems kind of like saying something fun or is catching our attention.

00:10:20.000 | Let's bring them over and put them in front of you to respond to you.

00:10:23.000 | It feels like you're just responding to one person.

00:10:25.000 | But really, there's Madison Square Garden full of people and just the most engaging or interesting or attention catching responses are captured.

00:10:31.000 | So what we get is the simulacrum of like a normal conversation.

00:10:34.000 | We've been evolved to have it, but the conversation is not really real.

00:10:37.000 | It's not with people, you know, there's no social stakes.

00:10:40.000 | There's no tit for tat expectation as this is someone that you have to live with going forward.

00:10:45.000 | So in your interactions, you have to keep that in mind.

00:10:47.000 | You need a sustainable relationship.

00:10:49.000 | It's instead sort of like algorithmically matched rhetorical bomb throwing.

00:10:53.000 | Hey, it's Cal.

00:10:54.000 | I wanted to interrupt briefly to say that if you're enjoying this video, then you need to check out my new book, Slow Productivity, the Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout.

00:11:06.000 | This is like the Bible for most of the ideas we talk about here in these videos.

00:11:11.000 | You can get a free excerpt at calnewport.com/slow.

00:11:16.000 | I know you're going to like it.

00:11:18.000 | Check it out.

00:11:19.000 | Now let's get back to the video.

00:11:22.000 | So the disorder this creates is that these curated pseudo conversations, as I like to call them, when we see them as real, we get very distressed.

00:11:31.000 | You constantly feel like you're in a situation that in the analog world would be very rare and very alarming.

00:11:38.000 | We constantly feel when we're interacting with these curated pseudo conversations on large global conversation platforms, we constantly feel as if we just offended someone at the town hall meeting.

00:11:49.000 | We said the wrong thing around the Paleolithic campfire, and now we're getting cold stares from the tribal chief who's like a real beast and is holding a spear in both hands.

00:11:59.000 | That is like a very alarming circumstance through most of our history.

00:12:03.000 | And our brain doesn't realize that the curated pseudo conversation is different, so we are distressed at a level and a consistency that would have otherwise been a spelling disaster.

00:12:16.000 | This is like you're about to get kicked out of Salem or burned at the stake type of disaster.

00:12:22.000 | So we get really upset.

00:12:24.000 | All right?

00:12:25.000 | That is the trend that for these digital natives, these young men who are watching this YouTube video, is unavoidable because so much of their life is on there.

00:12:33.000 | They have to do something about it.

00:12:34.000 | It seems so drastic.

00:12:35.000 | But the rest of us that maybe use these platforms less frequently but on a semi-consistent basis, we still suffer from this.

00:12:42.000 | The dosage of the disorder is lower, but it is still a steady drip of this type of social distress, which just makes us less happy.

00:12:49.000 | All right.

00:12:50.000 | So we've seen this mismatch between the modern digital environment and our species.

00:12:53.000 | We've identified the disorder it creates.

00:12:55.000 | Now that we know the disorder, we can think about the treatment.

00:12:58.000 | The treatment here is simple.

00:12:59.000 | We can take like what the video is saying, and we can simplify that to not be so hyperbolic.

00:13:04.000 | You don't have to disappear and move next to the gym.

00:13:06.000 | But here is my treatment for this disorder of curated pseudo-conversation-induced distress.

00:13:13.000 | Don't digitally interact with people that you've never previously been in the same room with before.

00:13:20.000 | So what this is saying, this simple heuristic, actually does a lot of work for us.

00:13:26.000 | Right?

00:13:27.000 | It saves us from being too aggressive.

00:13:29.000 | The too aggressive thing to do here would be like don't ever have interactions digitally.

00:13:34.000 | Well, that's going too far.

00:13:36.000 | Actually, like digital communication tools, these are pretty useful.

00:13:40.000 | It's pretty useful if I can like text message a question to a friend of mine or kind of keep up with like what's going on with my family.

00:13:49.000 | We could have like a text thread going back and forth or like the e-mail, some information about an upcoming, like we're going to the game.

00:13:55.000 | Let me e-mail you the tickets over e-mail.

00:13:57.000 | Like there's all sorts of digital conversation.

00:13:59.000 | That's great.

00:14:00.000 | Like Zoom calls.

00:14:01.000 | Remember this like during the pandemic, the ability to see people in your family or friends face to face and how now we like we can still do that with distance relatives.

00:14:08.000 | Like all this stuff is great.

00:14:10.000 | I mean I write about in my book Digital Minimalism.

00:14:13.000 | It's not as good as in-person interaction.

00:14:15.000 | So you want to be careful not to replace all analog interaction with people you care about with digital.

00:14:21.000 | But there's nothing wrong with doing the digital.

00:14:23.000 | It's only a problem with people you know if you let that replace other types of communication.

00:14:28.000 | So there's no negative thing that happens being on a text thread with your friends.

00:14:33.000 | The only negative thing that could come from that is if because of that thread you never actually go and do things with your friends ever again.

00:14:39.000 | But there's no negative harm from the direct activity.

00:14:42.000 | But what this simple heuristic does tell you to take a break from is the strangers online.

00:14:49.000 | The post on whatever it is now Twitter or Blue Sky or threads where you're angrily replying to someone.

00:14:56.000 | The performative posting on Instagram of something that you know whatever it is but you have the hashtag blessed after it.

00:15:02.000 | You're going to get some crap for that because that's kind of annoying.

00:15:05.000 | Like waiting for that that crap to come back in.

00:15:08.000 | Where you're posting for people you don't know.

00:15:11.000 | That's what this heuristic says.

00:15:12.000 | Hey step away from that.

00:15:13.000 | At least see what that feels like.

00:15:15.000 | So again my treatment here and I'll say it one more time.

00:15:17.000 | Don't digitally interact with people that you previously have not been in the same room with before.

00:15:24.000 | Now of course look there's obvious caveats here.

00:15:26.000 | We're talking recreational communication.

00:15:29.000 | This doesn't mean like hey I can't respond.

00:15:32.000 | I'm applying for a job and I can't respond to the new boss because I've never been in the same room with them before.

00:15:36.000 | But just in terms of like casual leisure based interaction.

00:15:40.000 | Give that a try.

00:15:42.000 | That solves this disorder we have.

00:15:45.000 | You're not posting in public places means you're not exposing your brain to curated pseudo conversations.

00:15:50.000 | Which means the digital world is not giving you the steady dose of distress.

00:15:56.000 | Now this is what I would even tell like the young men who are watching this video.

00:15:59.000 | Is like I feel the pain that's driving you to this.

00:16:04.000 | But you don't have to think about this necessarily through the lens of I'm going to temporarily disappear.

00:16:09.000 | And then I'm going to come back.

00:16:10.000 | But really it's this ubermensch idea in this video.

00:16:12.000 | It's like I'm going to come back so shredded.

00:16:14.000 | And with so much money.

00:16:16.000 | That you can't say anything wrong about.

00:16:18.000 | You can't say anything bad about me right.

00:16:20.000 | I'm going to be the king alpha.

00:16:21.000 | I'm saying there's a more consistent solution here.

00:16:23.000 | Just don't make this online self so important anymore.

00:16:28.000 | You know hang out with real people.

00:16:29.000 | Go to the gym but make friends at the gym.

00:16:31.000 | And then like go get wheatgrass shots or whatever people who are in shape do.

00:16:34.000 | Like after the gym or whatever.

00:16:36.000 | You want to start a business great.

00:16:38.000 | Hang out together with some people and start a business.

00:16:40.000 | And go to a co-working space.

00:16:42.000 | Be around people.

00:16:43.000 | Build out your analog life.

00:16:45.000 | Digitally communicate with people you've met in the real world.

00:16:47.000 | Do not have this sort of shadow self who has to exist online.

00:16:53.000 | And you'll realize your problem was not other people.

00:16:56.000 | Your problem was not that you told people about your goals.

00:16:59.000 | Or that people had heard stuff that makes you vulnerable.

00:17:02.000 | The problem is you're telling people who don't know you and don't care.

00:17:05.000 | That's the problem.

00:17:06.000 | It's the audience not what you're saying.

00:17:08.000 | So I think there's an interesting lesson in it.

00:17:11.000 | So I'm going to give a name to it.

00:17:12.000 | I like to give names to things.

00:17:14.000 | Stopping digital interaction with people you have not met before in person.

00:17:18.000 | We'll call this analog mode.

00:17:20.000 | You don't have to disappear but try analog mode out for a while.

00:17:23.000 | This is a particularly good time to do it.

00:17:25.000 | I've been listening to these fights recently Jesse about these online platforms.

00:17:30.000 | Twitter versus Blue Sky versus Threads.

00:17:34.000 | Because someone wrote me and said by the way.

00:17:36.000 | Oh there's a Cal Newport on Blue Sky.

00:17:38.000 | I didn't know what Blue Sky is.

00:17:41.000 | My understanding is it's a Twitter style platform.

00:17:46.000 | But it maintains the style of content moderation that Twitter had in like 2019, 2020.

00:17:55.000 | Like the very sort of strong.

00:17:57.000 | And then Threads is also a Twitter style interface.

00:18:01.000 | But it really downplays politics.

00:18:04.000 | So it's trying to be more of like an Instagrammy type place.

00:18:07.000 | So there's a Cal Newport on Blue Sky.

00:18:09.000 | That's not me.

00:18:10.000 | It's really trying to be me.

00:18:11.000 | It's my picture.

00:18:12.000 | It's my books.

00:18:13.000 | Fortunately whoever this is hasn't posted incendiary things.

00:18:18.000 | But you know who knows.

00:18:21.000 | Anyways the point is I'm looking at this.

00:18:23.000 | It's all these people who the assumption behind this conversation.

00:18:27.000 | It's like well clearly we have to be on a global conversation platform having curated pseudo conversations.

00:18:31.000 | And I'm like no the answer is you don't have to be on any of these things.

00:18:33.000 | I wrote a New Yorker article about this two summers ago called We Don't Need a New Twitter.

00:18:37.000 | That really gets into this argument about why global communication platforms.

00:18:40.000 | Conversation platforms are not intrinsic to the internet.

00:18:44.000 | They're not somehow synonymous with like digital expression and free speech.

00:18:49.000 | It's like a weird business move.

00:18:52.000 | It's the free speech equivalent I guess of like Amazon or Walmart.

00:18:56.000 | I mean it's important that everything you buy comes from one giant company.

00:19:00.000 | That's not that important actually.

00:19:02.000 | Like we liked when there was a Main Street and there was many other smaller shops.

00:19:05.000 | So you don't have to have these digital selves.

00:19:09.000 | I mean it's ironic because I'm very exposed online.

00:19:12.000 | But the places I guess I'm exposed are not places people comment.

00:19:15.000 | It's a podcast and newsletters.

00:19:17.000 | It's like in the people's ears and they read it.

00:19:20.000 | It's not in these conversation platforms where people talk about it.

00:19:24.000 | So there we go, analog mode.

00:19:26.000 | I think this is a great time to give that a try.

00:19:29.000 | Yeah, and I also follow Rogan's advice.

00:19:31.000 | I never read the comments on YouTube.

00:19:34.000 | So I've heard him say post and ghost is his advice.

00:19:38.000 | Meaning like if you post something, don't go back and read like the comments.

00:19:44.000 | I think if I ever went on his show, my pitch to him would be like don't post.

00:19:51.000 | Because it would be so influential, right?

00:19:53.000 | Because I don't really know.

00:19:55.000 | I guess we could check it out.

00:19:56.000 | Can you load up?

00:19:58.000 | I guess he'd be on Twitter probably, right?

00:20:00.000 | He's buddies with Elon.

00:20:01.000 | I'm sure he's on Twitter.

00:20:03.000 | I wonder if he even posts on there that much.

00:20:06.000 | But I think it would be really influential if Joe Rogan said I don't post on social media.

00:20:13.000 | There's just like more important things in lives.

00:20:15.000 | Like be a leader in your community.

00:20:17.000 | Do cool things.

00:20:18.000 | Build things.

00:20:19.000 | Don't waste time posting at all.

00:20:21.000 | I think that would be so powerful.

00:20:23.000 | Don't you think?

00:20:25.000 | Yeah.

00:20:26.000 | So he could do that.

00:20:27.000 | Yeah.

00:20:28.000 | I convinced Sam Harris to leave Twitter.

00:20:29.000 | Maybe that had some influence with some people.

00:20:30.000 | But man, if Joe Rogan did it.

00:20:32.000 | I never heard.

00:20:33.000 | I don't listen to him all the time.

00:20:34.000 | But I never heard him complain about a problem.

00:20:37.000 | I think he barely uses it.

00:20:40.000 | OK.

00:20:41.000 | Not to get into what Joe Rogan should do conversation.

00:20:44.000 | He barely uses it, right?

00:20:47.000 | And I think he is super disciplined.

00:20:50.000 | So to him, he's saying what's the problem?

00:20:53.000 | Right?

00:20:54.000 | I think he barely uses it.

00:20:55.000 | He doesn't check comments.

00:20:56.000 | He's been in the public eye since a young age.

00:21:00.000 | He's very used to it.

00:21:01.000 | So he's like what's the problem?

00:21:02.000 | Like I post and ghost.

00:21:03.000 | Like I put some stuff on there I think is funny.

00:21:06.000 | It's fine.

00:21:07.000 | But the problem is most people can't do what he does.

00:21:10.000 | Like most people can't kind of be on it.

00:21:12.000 | So even though he doesn't have to quit.

00:21:14.000 | Like it's not going to make his life much better to quit because he probably barely looks at it.

00:21:18.000 | Him quitting would probably be a model to other people.

00:21:20.000 | I mean when he started.

00:21:22.000 | It seems like the most arbitrary thing.

00:21:24.000 | When like Cam Haines convinced him that hunting deer with a bow and arrow was like a cool thing to do.

00:21:31.000 | Half the men on the internet started hunting deer with bows and arrows.

00:21:34.000 | Right?

00:21:35.000 | Not that that's a bad thing.

00:21:36.000 | But it's like super, super specific.

00:21:37.000 | When he decided that like Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

00:21:40.000 | Like this very specific martial art was like a cool thing to do.

00:21:44.000 | Half the men on the internet started doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

00:21:46.000 | Which is like a very, very specific thing.

00:21:47.000 | So imagine if he's like yeah just stop using social media.

00:21:49.000 | But I don't think there's any way to do it because he's boys with Elon and he likes going on X.

00:21:53.000 | You know?

00:21:54.000 | He's really good friends with him.

00:21:55.000 | That's the problem.

00:21:56.000 | So he's never going to do it.

00:21:57.000 | All right.

00:21:58.000 | So I got to convince Elon first to shut down X.

00:22:00.000 | My list is getting harder, Jesse.

00:22:03.000 | My to-do list is getting harder.

00:22:04.000 | All right.

00:22:05.000 | We got some good questions.

00:22:06.000 | We got a call.

00:22:07.000 | We got a tech corner coming up.

00:22:08.000 | But first, let's briefly hear from a sponsor.

00:22:11.000 | I want to talk about one of my favorite products of the last couple of years.

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00:22:26.000 | This is coming out near Black Friday.

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00:22:43.000 | This is their highest offer of the year.

00:22:45.000 | It's only going to last so long.

00:22:47.000 | But first, let me tell you what the Pod is and why I think it is a must-have for anyone who wants to sleep better.

00:22:51.000 | The Pod is a high-tech mattress cover that you can easily and quickly add to your existing bed.

00:22:56.000 | So you just, like, put it on top of your mattress.

00:22:58.000 | The cover is packed with advanced technology that allows it to automatically cool, heat, and even elevate.

00:23:04.000 | Here's why this matters.

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00:23:10.000 | That's a massive boost to your recovery time, which can translate to better physical performance,

00:23:14.000 | improved cognitive function, and enhanced overall health.

00:23:17.000 | Having a Pod is like having a sleep coach, personal thermostat, and advanced fitness trainer and tracker,

00:23:23.000 | I mean, all rolled into one.

00:23:25.000 | The Pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles.

00:23:28.000 | It can cool down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm up all the way to 110 degrees,

00:23:33.000 | and it does this separately for each side of the bed.

00:23:36.000 | This means you and your partner can each have your ideal sleep temperature.

00:23:41.000 | The really cool part, the Pod learns your sleep patterns over time

00:23:44.000 | and automatically adjusts the temperature throughout the night to optimize each phase of your sleep.

00:23:49.000 | My wife and I have become complete addicts of having the Pod on our bed.

00:23:54.000 | So you put this cover on your bed, just like a mattress cover,

00:23:59.000 | and then there's a tube that comes out of it,

00:24:02.000 | and then, like, somewhere next to your bed or behind your bed you have,

00:24:05.000 | it looks like an old-fashioned PC, like, you know, the tower, but it's, like, kind of black and sleek.

00:24:10.000 | And that has water in it, and it, like, cools or heats it,

00:24:13.000 | and it goes to these capillaries, and it can cool each side of the bed or heat it separately.

00:24:17.000 | We can't sleep very well without this.

00:24:20.000 | It's a problem now when we travel.

00:24:22.000 | I sleep hot.

00:24:23.000 | So when you have just, like, this little bit of cool below you,

00:24:26.000 | you can have warm blankets on, and you don't overheat because it takes some of that out.

00:24:32.000 | We do the differential temperature.

00:24:35.000 | I think my wife is one or maybe two ticks colder than me, but I don't sleep with a shirt on.

00:24:41.000 | So if I make it too cold, I can feel it.

00:24:45.000 | We know, like, if we forgot to turn it on or forgot unplugged or something,

00:24:48.000 | this is how we know it works.

00:24:50.000 | We'll be in bed, and then one of us will be like, "No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:24:53.000 | Something is—this is not comfortable."

00:24:55.000 | Like, we are now kind of hopelessly addicted to having one of these.

00:24:59.000 | We've been spreading the word because we got the new Ultra Pro—was it 4?—the 4 Pod 4 Ultra,

00:25:07.000 | and so then we gave our other one away, so we're kind of spreading the word here.

00:25:11.000 | This stuff works really well.

00:25:12.000 | I love it.

00:25:14.000 | We're very happy with it.

00:25:15.000 | It's a cool invention.

00:25:16.000 | It's one of these things like, "Okay, this works.

00:25:18.000 | I'm glad this exists."

00:25:20.000 | So get ready to take your sleep and recovery to the next level.

00:25:22.000 | Head over to 8sleep.com/deep and use the code DEEP to get up to $600 off your Pod 4 Ultra purchase when bundled.

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00:25:37.000 | Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep.

00:25:41.000 | It's now shipping to many countries worldwide.

00:25:43.000 | See details at 8sleep.com/deep.

00:25:48.000 | We talked about our body.

00:25:49.000 | I want to talk a little bit about your mind and our longtime sponsors at Blinkist.

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00:26:14.000 | The way Jesse and I use Blinkist is as a triage service for books.

00:26:18.000 | If there's a book one of us is interested in, throw it on your queue.

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00:26:26.000 | It's really easy after reading the summary to figure out, "Hey, do I want to read this whole book, or do I have what I really need to know?"

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00:26:37.000 | I know other people who use it to quickly get the lay of the land on a topic.

00:26:40.000 | You listen to Blinkist on five books related to the same topic.

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00:27:35.000 | Jesse, let's do some questions.

00:27:38.000 | First question is from Tyler.

00:27:40.000 | "I'm from the Asheville area that was recently hit by Helene.

00:27:43.000 | This shakeup made me reflect on how I want to structure my life.

00:27:46.000 | How would you recommend someone spend a week or a long weekend this way?

00:27:50.000 | What documents, systems, and protocols would you recommend somebody put in place

00:27:54.000 | as a good foundation towards a deep life?"

00:27:57.000 | Well, first of all, I hope things are going better for you in Asheville.

00:28:02.000 | A good friend and friend of the show, Brad Stolberg, lives in Asheville.

00:28:06.000 | I've really been able to hear through him kind of like the details of the challenges there.

00:28:11.000 | In fact, that would be my first bit of advice is check out Brad's work at The Growth Equation.

00:28:19.000 | It's a website he runs with Steve Magnus, another friend of the show, great newsletter.

00:28:23.000 | They've got a great podcast as well called Farewell that I've been on a couple times.

00:28:28.000 | He's thinking about these issues because he's going through it as well,

00:28:31.000 | so I'm just going to give a plug to that team over there.

00:28:34.000 | Brad and Steve and Clay, et cetera.

00:28:36.000 | All right, but let's get more general here.

00:28:39.000 | The general question here that's relevant to everyone is there's some sort of disruption

00:28:44.000 | that's happened in your life, and it could be a climate disaster like this,

00:28:49.000 | but it could be medical is another big one.

00:28:51.000 | You get a health scare.

00:28:53.000 | Someone gets really sick.

00:28:54.000 | Someone dies.

00:28:55.000 | It could be professional, like you lose a job.

00:28:59.000 | You have to move suddenly or whatever.

00:29:01.000 | How do you reset, not just reset, but come out of a disruption,

00:29:05.000 | aim towards reconstructing your life to be not just deep as it was before,

00:29:11.000 | but perhaps even deeper?

00:29:12.000 | I got some specific advice here.

00:29:14.000 | First of all, I would spend at least a week or two using a single-purpose journal

00:29:19.000 | dedicated to trying to capture and make sense of your reactions to the disruption.

00:29:24.000 | So a single-purpose journal, we've talked about this in a prior episode,

00:29:27.000 | it's a small journal that you use for one specific purpose.

00:29:30.000 | So you're like, "I'm trying to figure out this one thing,"

00:29:34.000 | like an idea for a book or a life transformation.

00:29:38.000 | I like to use the Field Notes notebooks for these

00:29:40.000 | because they're very small and fit in your pocket.

00:29:42.000 | They're about the right size for dealing with just like a single issue.

00:29:45.000 | You have to make sense of your intimations about your life

00:29:49.000 | that have been inspired, changed, or evolved because of the disruption.

00:29:54.000 | What is it about your life that now, in light of the disruption, is feeling out of whack

00:30:01.000 | or is feeling like it's dragging?

00:30:02.000 | What is it that's feeling like newly valuable in a way you didn't think about before?

00:30:07.000 | What are the insights that are coming up?

00:30:09.000 | What type of media is suddenly appealing to you in a way that it didn't before?

00:30:14.000 | It's like, "Why am I suddenly listening to Surf Podcast?"

00:30:17.000 | Or, "Why is it that I'm being really attracted to hearing about

00:30:21.000 | Netflix documentaries on sports stars?"

00:30:23.000 | It's a time to become attuned to how you're feeling

00:30:26.000 | because—and this is a concept I talk about in the book I'm writing now about the deep life—

00:30:30.000 | these types of disruptions often shake the sand loose

00:30:35.000 | and reveal insights that were previously obscured.

00:30:40.000 | So we want to capture those.

00:30:42.000 | You're just taking notes, right?

00:30:43.000 | Have it with you whenever you're walking the dog or you're just commuting to work.

00:30:47.000 | You feel that like a particular rush of insight

00:30:49.000 | because you had your first cup of coffee of the morning.

00:30:51.000 | Jot down those notes.

00:30:53.000 | All right, once you've done that for a while

00:30:55.000 | and you're sort of refining these intimations into actual insights,

00:31:01.000 | it's time to try to update your lifestyle vision.

00:31:03.000 | I would do this in nature.

00:31:04.000 | I would try to take one big swing at this.

00:31:06.000 | The Asheville area has beautiful hiking up there in those mountains.

00:31:09.000 | Go for a hike that's a couple hours long.

00:31:11.000 | And at the summit, sit there and try to work through

00:31:14.000 | an updated vision of your ideal lifestyle,

00:31:17.000 | integrating these insights you found through your single-purpose journaling.

00:31:20.000 | This will be a different vision, likely,

00:31:23.000 | than whatever vision you had before the disruption.

00:31:26.000 | And maybe you weren't doing lifestyle-centric planning before,

00:31:29.000 | so this might just be your first vision you've ever done.

00:31:32.000 | Now, once you return from that mountain,

00:31:34.000 | which for you, Tyler, is probably literal because you live in Asheville

00:31:38.000 | and for other people might be metaphorical,

00:31:40.000 | now you do the whole lifestyle planning thing

00:31:42.000 | where you work backwards from the vision

00:31:43.000 | to figure out how you can move forward closer to it.

00:31:46.000 | And now you're talking to your partner if you're married.

00:31:49.000 | Now you're thinking through your options.

00:31:51.000 | Now you're getting tactical.

00:31:52.000 | Now you're having those sort of strategic and tactical decisions.

00:31:56.000 | Do we want to really change something about our work situation?

00:31:59.000 | Do we want to change something about where we live, our school situation?

00:32:01.000 | Is there a big change we want to make in our lives?

00:32:04.000 | That's kind of the fun part, also the scary part.

00:32:08.000 | But what I'm sort of arguing for here is don't start there.

00:32:12.000 | That's the TL;DR of this whole advice.

00:32:16.000 | Don't start with sitting down tonight and saying, "Should we move?"

00:32:20.000 | You want to get there after you've clarified your intermissions and the insights

00:32:23.000 | and then use those to try to form a lifestyle vision that really resonates

00:32:26.000 | and then work backwards from that vision.

00:32:28.000 | That's how you'll avoid just falling into the trap

00:32:30.000 | of just trying to do something big for the sake of doing something big.

00:32:34.000 | That's how you'll avoid the trap of slamming your hand in the door

00:32:39.000 | just to feel something.

00:32:40.000 | That's what I sometimes call it where people make major changes in their life

00:32:43.000 | just because they feel stuck and at least there's some emotion in making a major change.

00:32:48.000 | But if that change is aimless or random, when the excitement wears off,

00:32:53.000 | you're not necessarily going to be in a better place.

00:32:55.000 | So I think there's opportunity lurking in here.

00:33:00.000 | Here is a quote.

00:33:02.000 | I'll see if anyone recognizes where this is from.

00:33:06.000 | Here's my quote, Jesse.

00:33:08.000 | One character from this anonymous quote says, "Dad, the Germans have the same word

00:33:15.000 | for crisis and opportunity."

00:33:18.000 | And the father in this quote says, "Yes, Christ-a-tunity."

00:33:22.000 | Do you know where that quote's from?

00:33:23.000 | No, it's The Simpsons.

00:33:25.000 | That's Lisa talking to Homer.

00:33:28.000 | But it's true.

00:33:29.000 | In crisis, there is opportunity.

00:33:31.000 | Actually, speaking of Brad, read his book as well, Masters of Change.

00:33:35.000 | It's all about how to be resilient to change and come out stronger.

00:33:38.000 | So this ends up being a big pitch for Brad.

00:33:40.000 | All right, Tyler, I hope that helps.

00:33:41.000 | I hope you have water back.

00:33:42.000 | I know that's the last thing to come.

00:33:44.000 | Asheville is beautiful.

00:33:46.000 | It'll rise up again.

00:33:48.000 | But thanks for giving us a chance to discuss this topic.

00:33:50.000 | All right, who do we have next?

00:33:51.000 | Next question is from Jack.

00:33:53.000 | "I constantly use my AirPods during gap times throughout the day.

00:33:57.000 | I listen while driving to work, doing chores, around the house,

00:34:00.000 | cooking dinner, eating lunch.

00:34:02.000 | I'm torn as I'm always listening to interesting stuff.

00:34:04.000 | But am I properly embracing boredom?"

00:34:07.000 | Yeah, I listen to my AirPods a lot as well.

00:34:09.000 | Here's what I recommend.

00:34:10.000 | I think the easiest thing to do is to actually schedule the times

00:34:15.000 | that you want to not use the AirPods.

00:34:17.000 | Like schedule the gap times, as you call them,

00:34:21.000 | where you want to be embracing boredom.

00:34:23.000 | And then you don't have to worry about it the other times.

00:34:25.000 | So in other words, you can make listening to podcasts or audio books

00:34:29.000 | a perfectly reasonable default activity.

00:34:31.000 | I'm doing the dishes. I'm, you know, shaving in the morning.

00:34:36.000 | I'm waiting at the car wash.

00:34:37.000 | Just make listening to interesting stuff a default

00:34:40.000 | and just schedule on a regular basis times to be without it.

00:34:43.000 | That's easier than trying to just debate with yourself moment to moment.

00:34:47.000 | Like, "Ooh, I should feel guilty. I've been listening to stuff a lot.

00:34:51.000 | I should have time where I'm not listening to things.

00:34:53.000 | Should it be now? Well, maybe not now."

00:34:55.000 | Don't have this debate with yourself all the time.

00:34:57.000 | Schedule the boredom because that's going to be less often

00:34:59.000 | and the AirPods could be the default.

00:35:01.000 | The key is to have a good mix of stuff you listen to.

00:35:03.000 | It doesn't all have to be incredibly intellectually demanding,

00:35:06.000 | but some of it should be, right?

00:35:09.000 | Expose yourself to interesting ideas, listening to interesting books.

00:35:12.000 | My one piece of advice is that if you have a regular time you listen

00:35:17.000 | that is kind of like time-bounded,

00:35:19.000 | and I'm thinking in particular like a morning commute.

00:35:21.000 | It's what I used to do where you're like, "I'm listening.

00:35:23.000 | I have pretty good energy, and it's a bounded amount of time every day."

00:35:27.000 | Think about using that for listening to like something really advanced

00:35:31.000 | or complicated like a learning company great courses style course

00:35:35.000 | where you can listen to like one lecture per morning on your way to work.

00:35:39.000 | So you have some sort of regular listening session

00:35:42.000 | where you're really trying to push yourself into something smarter.

00:35:46.000 | But yeah, no, I don't mind listening, especially if you're listening to our show.

00:35:48.000 | Schedule the time off instead of scheduling the time when you are listening.

00:35:53.000 | I always lose this. I have – Jesse knows this.

00:35:55.000 | This happens to me all the time.

00:35:56.000 | We have many AirPods boxes because we lose them and then we find them again.

00:35:59.000 | I have an AirPod with me. This case is probably at home.

00:36:03.000 | I guess I just had one in, and so I have a single AirPod with me without a case.

00:36:09.000 | That's kind of like story of my relationship to AirPods.

00:36:11.000 | My wife bought me a true story AirTags.

00:36:15.000 | I lose these things all the time. Lost the AirTags, ironically.

00:36:20.000 | I'm surprised they don't have AirTags for golf balls.

00:36:24.000 | Are they too big?

00:36:26.000 | People are always spending time looking for their golf balls.

00:36:28.000 | I agree. It could be a million-dollar company right there.

00:36:31.000 | Yeah.

00:36:32.000 | Yeah, find your golf balls.

00:36:33.000 | Not relevant for me. I know where to find my golf ball.

00:36:36.000 | Middle of the green, baby.

00:36:38.000 | Look for you duffers out there.

00:36:40.000 | You know I'm a real golfer because I use the term duffer.

00:36:42.000 | All right. Who do we got next?

00:36:43.000 | Next question is from Stuck Canuck.

00:36:45.000 | "As a recovering perfectionist," to use Oliver Berkman's term,

00:36:49.000 | "I'm trying to take a just-start approach to my work

00:36:51.000 | instead of thinking endlessly about the perfect way to get it done.

00:36:54.000 | I used to get hung up on the right way to do it

00:36:57.000 | to the point where I struggle with implementation.

00:36:59.000 | Is there a way to adopt your discipline ladder idea

00:37:02.000 | to incrementally getting better at frameworks like multiscale planning?"

00:37:06.000 | I love the details.

00:37:07.000 | This is a Newportian nerd question, which I love.

00:37:11.000 | Perfectionism, Berkman's perfectionist framework,

00:37:14.000 | discipline ladder, multiscale planning.

00:37:18.000 | You're speaking my language, Stuck Canuck.

00:37:20.000 | Okay. Here's the first key point I want to make.

00:37:24.000 | It's an important point to emphasize.

00:37:26.000 | Frameworks and systems for organizing your work and effort

00:37:30.000 | can't make hard work not hard.

00:37:34.000 | This was like the major trap of the productivity prong movement

00:37:37.000 | from the early 2000s.

00:37:39.000 | This was, we've talked about on the show before,

00:37:41.000 | this is where you got this marriage of sort of sophisticated

00:37:45.000 | time management productivity techniques,

00:37:46.000 | mainly David Allen's Getting Things Done,

00:37:48.000 | which was this very complicated productivity technique,

00:37:52.000 | and software.

00:37:54.000 | We're starting to get powerful personal computer software.

00:37:56.000 | You had these two worlds of people who were in particular

00:38:00.000 | like Mac aficionados and David Allen aficionados

00:38:04.000 | who said, "Wait a second.

00:38:05.000 | If we build custom software tools to implement complicated

00:38:11.000 | time management organization productivity systems,

00:38:14.000 | maybe we could make work less hard.

00:38:16.000 | Like work itself could become like relatively automated

00:38:19.000 | where kind of just tasks will pop up automatically

00:38:22.000 | out of our kinkless GTD setup,

00:38:23.000 | and we just kind of execute small tasks,

00:38:25.000 | and then over time, stuff gets done."

00:38:27.000 | That was the productivity prong promise,

00:38:29.000 | that technology plus sufficiently complicated systems

00:38:32.000 | will make hard work less hard.

00:38:35.000 | The reality and why that movement failed

00:38:38.000 | is that hard work is hard to do,

00:38:40.000 | and a productivity system can't make it unhard.

00:38:42.000 | It's hard to write that book chapter,

00:38:44.000 | and nothing you can do makes you more likely to want to do it

00:38:47.000 | or make it fun.

00:38:48.000 | It's still going to be hard.

00:38:49.000 | Writing code is hard.

00:38:50.000 | Figuring out that business strategy is hard.

00:38:54.000 | The hard things are hard.

00:38:57.000 | All right, so what do frameworks and systems

00:39:00.000 | and the right technologies do?

00:39:02.000 | I think the better analogy is thinking about

00:39:04.000 | fitness routines at the gym, right?

00:39:07.000 | You have a good training program.

00:39:10.000 | It does not make the specific day you're in the gym any easier.

00:39:14.000 | You still have to go to the gym.

00:39:16.000 | Every one of those weights is heavy to lift,

00:39:18.000 | and you still have to convince yourself

00:39:19.000 | to lift every one of those weights.

00:39:21.000 | But over time, having a structure to how you do your exercise

00:39:25.000 | is going to make you stronger,

00:39:26.000 | and you're going to get more results.

00:39:27.000 | So over time, it's better,

00:39:30.000 | but it doesn't make work not hard in the moment.

00:39:32.000 | So first of all, we have to change our expectation.

00:39:35.000 | No system is going to make hard work not hard.

00:39:39.000 | That being said, okay, so we've lowered the stakes.

00:39:41.000 | Then, yeah, I think it's perfectly fine to discipline ladder in

00:39:44.000 | the systems you use to organize your task in time.

00:39:48.000 | So start with something simple.

00:39:50.000 | I do some sort of basic organization,

00:39:52.000 | and that's consistent.

00:39:54.000 | And then I'm going to ladder that up

00:39:55.000 | to a slightly more complicated system.

00:39:57.000 | That's fine.

00:39:58.000 | And then when you're comfortable with that,

00:39:59.000 | so if that's going to help you kind of ease

00:40:01.000 | into full multi-scale planning,

00:40:04.000 | that's going to be more consistent

00:40:05.000 | than just trying to jump into a full system.

00:40:07.000 | I think that's absolutely fine.

00:40:08.000 | But do not have the expectation

00:40:10.000 | that the system, if done right,

00:40:11.000 | is going to make hard work easy.

00:40:14.000 | And don't go too far.

00:40:16.000 | Like a good organizational system

00:40:18.000 | should require very little effort from you.

00:40:19.000 | It should be automatic.

00:40:20.000 | It should be boring.

00:40:21.000 | You barely even think about it.

00:40:22.000 | If you're having a hard time

00:40:25.000 | keeping up with a system,

00:40:27.000 | maybe you laddered up too fast,

00:40:29.000 | but also maybe it's just too complicated.

00:40:31.000 | Again, it's like a gym routine.

00:40:33.000 | If in the gym, you have to spend five minutes

00:40:36.000 | before every set,

00:40:37.000 | like plugging all this information to an app

00:40:39.000 | that's going to tell you

00:40:40.000 | what your now ideal AI-generated

00:40:43.000 | best next set to do,

00:40:45.000 | and it wants to track with diodes on your muscles

00:40:48.000 | exactly what the contraction is or whatever,

00:40:50.000 | you're going to stop working out.

00:40:51.000 | That's too complicated.

00:40:52.000 | What you really want is a piece of paper,

00:40:53.000 | and it says like, "Bench press times three."

00:40:56.000 | You're like, "Great. I know what to do.

00:40:58.000 | It's helping me be structured,

00:40:59.000 | but the system takes very little of my energy."

00:41:02.000 | So yeah, if you want to ladder up a little bit

00:41:05.000 | to a more complicated system, yeah,

00:41:07.000 | but if you're having a hard time

00:41:09.000 | sticking with the system,

00:41:10.000 | keep in mind that system might be too complicated

00:41:13.000 | and keep your expectations reasonable.

00:41:15.000 | We want to structure our effort over time

00:41:17.000 | to keep work sustainable

00:41:18.000 | and keep us working on the things that matter,

00:41:21.000 | but systems can't transform

00:41:24.000 | the actual experience of doing our work.

00:41:27.000 | All right. Who do we got next?

00:41:29.000 | Next question is from Rebecca.

00:41:31.000 | "I struggle with feeling like time

00:41:33.000 | has lost its usual structure,

00:41:35.000 | particularly due to forced isolation

00:41:37.000 | and health challenges.

00:41:38.000 | This has been going on before COVID

00:41:40.000 | so many years now.

00:41:41.000 | How can I build a system that helps re-anchor me

00:41:43.000 | to a more traditional sense of time

00:41:45.000 | while also allowing for the flexibility I need

00:41:47.000 | to do my current life constraints?"

00:41:50.000 | Well, Rebecca, first of all,

00:41:52.000 | I'm empathetic with what you're talking about here.

00:41:55.000 | A lot of people have experienced this in the short term.

00:41:58.000 | So you have some sort of disruption

00:42:01.000 | to your normal rhythm of life,

00:42:02.000 | like a health-related disruption,

00:42:04.000 | and you have this sense of,

00:42:06.000 | I like your term here,

00:42:07.000 | like you're disoriented or unanchored.

00:42:10.000 | Like, "My days are just kind of passing by.

00:42:13.000 | People in the hospital report this,"

00:42:15.000 | or if you're recovering from a really bad flu

00:42:17.000 | or from a surgery or something,

00:42:19.000 | and it really can be disorienting.

00:42:22.000 | The good news is,

00:42:23.000 | when it comes to anchoring ourselves

00:42:26.000 | to a sense of structure and meaning,

00:42:28.000 | there's incredible flexibility.

00:42:30.000 | There's no rule that says,

00:42:32.000 | "You have to be doing this many things."

00:42:35.000 | There's no rule that says,

00:42:37.000 | "Structure and meaning won't work

00:42:39.000 | unless you have a certain type of temporal consistency."

00:42:42.000 | Like, "It always has to be these things at these days."

00:42:45.000 | It can be much more flexible than that.

00:42:48.000 | So you can have some anchors

00:42:50.000 | that are like,

00:42:51.000 | "These are the things that are important to me to do,

00:42:54.000 | and I have some flexibility about how I do them,"

00:42:58.000 | depending on what's going on that day or this or that,

00:43:00.000 | but I don't take my focus off of them.

00:43:03.000 | I'm going to connect to people that matter to me,

00:43:06.000 | and I'm going to do every single day

00:43:08.000 | something along these lines.

00:43:10.000 | I'm going to maybe even check it off

00:43:12.000 | in a metric tracking place.

00:43:13.000 | Now, what that means can vary on the day.

00:43:15.000 | I can make the call on the day.

00:43:16.000 | If I'm feeling really bad that day,

00:43:17.000 | there's a health issue going on,

00:43:19.000 | it really could be texting someone.

00:43:21.000 | On the other hand, if I'm having a good day,

00:43:23.000 | I want to go and see someone,

00:43:24.000 | spend some time with them,

00:43:25.000 | but the key is I'm anchored to this value,

00:43:27.000 | and I do something towards this value every day.

00:43:29.000 | Maybe there's a professional creative project

00:43:31.000 | you're working on that's important to you.

00:43:34.000 | You're like, "I work on this every week or every day.

00:43:37.000 | I'm making progress on this, serious progress."

00:43:39.000 | It can vary day-to-day what that means,

00:43:41.000 | and maybe for the next two weeks,

00:43:43.000 | it's the most minimal thing.

00:43:44.000 | I'm reading a few pages or writing down one idea,

00:43:47.000 | and other days I'm doing more,

00:43:49.000 | but what you're anchoring to is,

00:43:50.000 | "I work on this thing that's important to me every day."

00:43:52.000 | Same thing with physical.

00:43:53.000 | I get this a lot.

00:43:54.000 | I hear about this a lot from people with health issues

00:43:59.000 | that makes their physical capacities

00:44:01.000 | highly variable day-to-day.

00:44:04.000 | They will talk about the importance

00:44:05.000 | of still prioritizing that,

00:44:06.000 | and again, just having flexibility in what that means.

00:44:09.000 | I mean, you can imagine someone in their life

00:44:11.000 | who exercises a lot.

00:44:14.000 | It's really important to them,

00:44:16.000 | and then they get hip surgery or something like this.

00:44:19.000 | Now they're kind of laid up.

00:44:21.000 | They can't go do a hard workout at the gym,

00:44:25.000 | but what they could re-anchor on is,

00:44:27.000 | "In my state of recovery, what can I do physically

00:44:31.000 | that's going to be good for my recovery

00:44:33.000 | and kind of like the best I can do

00:44:34.000 | with my current circumstance?"

00:44:35.000 | That's what they're anchoring out of.

00:44:38.000 | That's what I would say,

00:44:40.000 | and I think this can hold more generally

00:44:41.000 | for people in a lot of situations.

00:44:44.000 | Have the things that matter,

00:44:45.000 | these anchors in your life,

00:44:47.000 | take action towards them.

00:44:49.000 | Classic logotherapy,

00:44:50.000 | have action towards things that matter,

00:44:51.000 | and make these things that really matter.

00:44:53.000 | These relationships really matter.

00:44:54.000 | It's a project I'm working on that really matters.

00:44:56.000 | I think it's important.

00:44:58.000 | It's not arbitrary.

00:45:00.000 | Make progress on them,

00:45:01.000 | anchor to them,

00:45:02.000 | and then just be very flexible

00:45:03.000 | in what that progress is

00:45:05.000 | depending on the state you're in.

00:45:06.000 | The general rule you want to apply probably is,

00:45:10.000 | "I made progress on this thing

00:45:13.000 | to the best of my capabilities

00:45:15.000 | given my specific capabilities to date,"

00:45:17.000 | and that's the thing that you get pride out of,

00:45:19.000 | and that's how you find structure

00:45:23.000 | even when it's highly variable

00:45:24.000 | in terms of what specific activities

00:45:26.000 | you can actually do.

00:45:28.000 | I do this even when I get sick.

00:45:30.000 | I'm like, "Okay, I don't feel well,

00:45:33.000 | but I'm going to walk around the block,"

00:45:35.000 | or, "I'm going to try to read a chapter."

00:45:38.000 | Symbolically almost,

00:45:39.000 | I'll get a text.

00:45:41.000 | I'm going to come down

00:45:42.000 | and see how my kid's day went at school.

00:45:44.000 | It might be very, very minor

00:45:45.000 | what I'm doing with respect to the things

00:45:47.000 | I really anchor to,

00:45:48.000 | but I just completely adjust what that means,

00:45:50.000 | but I don't disanchor from them.

00:45:52.000 | Yep.

00:45:53.000 | All right, what do we got next?

00:45:54.000 | We have our Slow Productivity Corner.

00:45:56.000 | All right, let's hear that theme music.

00:45:58.000 | All right, so Slow Productivity Corner

00:46:08.000 | is where we answer a question

00:46:10.000 | that is related to my most recent book,

00:46:12.000 | Slow Productivity,

00:46:13.000 | The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout.

00:46:14.000 | I now call it, Jesse,

00:46:15.000 | my award-winning book

00:46:17.000 | after winning the S-A-E-B-W-S-B-A-S-A-B-E-W-A-B-E-S.

00:46:24.000 | It won a major award.

00:46:26.000 | I always get the acronym wrong.

00:46:27.000 | Also one of Amazon's best business books of 2024.

00:46:30.000 | A lot of what we talk about on the show

00:46:31.000 | comes from that book,

00:46:32.000 | so if you haven't read it yet, please do.

00:46:34.000 | All right, Jesse,

00:46:35.000 | what is our Slow Productivity Corner

00:46:37.000 | question of the week?

00:46:38.000 | It's from Dilbert.

00:46:39.000 | I'm a full-time journalist with young kids.

00:46:42.000 | I'm also slated to write a book,

00:46:43.000 | and I got a startup.

00:46:45.000 | I've tried to eliminate one of the projects but can't.

00:46:47.000 | Is there a way for me

00:46:48.000 | to pursue these activities in parallel?

00:46:50.000 | Or is there a neurotic element here

00:46:53.000 | and take a let's-see-how-things-line-up approach

00:46:56.000 | in terms of possible book deal,

00:46:58.000 | startup traction, job progress?

00:47:01.000 | Well, it is a lot of things.

00:47:03.000 | Now, of course, I'm speaking as like the king

00:47:06.000 | of doing too many jobs seemingly simultaneously,

00:47:10.000 | so I will tell you from my experience,

00:47:13.000 | raising kids, writing a book,

00:47:16.000 | doing a journalism job,

00:47:17.000 | and starting something new like a startup,

00:47:19.000 | it feels like too much.

00:47:21.000 | You're going to have a hard time

00:47:23.000 | doing all of those at like a reasonable level,

00:47:26.000 | so if it's possible to sort of pause one of those,

00:47:29.000 | I would.

00:47:30.000 | The word "pause" sometimes helps people

00:47:32.000 | so they don't have to think about

00:47:33.000 | quitting something or stopping something.

00:47:35.000 | If you can't,

00:47:37.000 | I'm going to say lean into the slow productivity principle

00:47:40.000 | of work at a natural pace.

00:47:42.000 | Just slow down the pace

00:47:44.000 | at which you expect to make progress

00:47:46.000 | at each of these things.

00:47:48.000 | Double the amount of time

00:47:50.000 | you're going to spend on your book.

00:47:51.000 | We kind of key in on these things sometimes

00:47:53.000 | of like, in theory,

00:47:55.000 | I could have this book done in eight months.

00:47:58.000 | In fact, my publisher would be happy

00:47:59.000 | if I got this book done in eight months.

00:48:01.000 | My friend over there got their book done in eight months,

00:48:03.000 | so I have to get this done in eight months.

00:48:06.000 | But if you say, look,

00:48:07.000 | I have these other things going on,

00:48:08.000 | it's going to be 16 months.

00:48:10.000 | Grumble, grumble, grumble,

00:48:11.000 | people move on with their lives,

00:48:13.000 | and now you've given yourself

00:48:15.000 | the ability to go slower,

00:48:17.000 | take steady progress, but slower progress.

00:48:19.000 | You're guiding a startup, sure,

00:48:22.000 | but maybe you end up having to more limit,

00:48:25.000 | or the startup is going to start much slower.

00:48:27.000 | We're going to just really try to get

00:48:29.000 | just this one product

00:48:30.000 | and just do a few clients,

00:48:31.000 | and we're going to take two years instead of one

00:48:33.000 | to get this thing up and running.

00:48:35.000 | The number of articles I'm running as my journalist,

00:48:38.000 | it's going to be fewer than I was doing before.

00:48:42.000 | During this period,

00:48:43.000 | I can't volunteer for all the things for my kids.

00:48:47.000 | I'll have to say I'm in this busy period,

00:48:48.000 | so I'm saying no to some of these volunteer things,

00:48:50.000 | and later, when I'm less busy,

00:48:53.000 | I'll volunteer for more.

00:48:54.000 | So you could just slow things down.

00:48:56.000 | You don't have to do everything

00:48:57.000 | at what would be the theoretical maximum pace.

00:49:01.000 | That is a strategy that a lot of people use.

00:49:03.000 | It's a strategy I use.

00:49:04.000 | I take time for things.

00:49:05.000 | Also, I'm often interleaving things.

00:49:09.000 | So you should think about it.

00:49:10.000 | I told you maybe to pause a couple things,

00:49:11.000 | so you finish something,

00:49:12.000 | then bring something else back.

00:49:14.000 | There's something called the illusion of concurrency

00:49:17.000 | that you see often when you look at the records

00:49:20.000 | of what seem to be highly accomplished people,

00:49:22.000 | and that's where you do temporal collapse.

00:49:26.000 | You see this long list of things that people did,

00:49:29.000 | and you collapse your understanding of their execution,

00:49:33.000 | how you imagine they were done.

00:49:35.000 | You collapse the time,

00:49:36.000 | so you imagine them all being done at the same time.

00:49:39.000 | I am often subjected to the illusion of concurrency.

00:49:42.000 | There's various things.

00:49:43.000 | I've written eight books.

00:49:45.000 | I have a bunch of papers I've written

00:49:48.000 | and a bunch of citations.

00:49:50.000 | I've written all these articles for The New Yorker.

00:49:52.000 | I have the podcast.

00:49:54.000 | People see that just written next to each other,

00:49:57.000 | and they do temporal collapse

00:49:58.000 | and imagine someone doing all that stuff at the same time.

00:50:01.000 | They're like, wow, that would be impossible.

00:50:03.000 | You must super be hustling or something like that,

00:50:05.000 | but the point is I don't do it all at the same time.

00:50:08.000 | When I'm writing a book,

00:50:09.000 | maybe I'm not working on other things,

00:50:10.000 | and I take years off in between books

00:50:12.000 | where I'm focusing on this.

00:50:13.000 | When I was publishing five papers a year to get tenure,

00:50:16.000 | that was the main professional thing I was doing.

00:50:19.000 | I wasn't podcasting.

00:50:20.000 | I wasn't writing for The New Yorker.

00:50:22.000 | I had one book in that whole period that I wrote,

00:50:25.000 | and I took my time on that book.

00:50:28.000 | It's like slowing down on things,

00:50:29.000 | interleaving between things.

00:50:31.000 | In the moment, it feels like hopeless levels of impedance,

00:50:35.000 | like, oh, my God, I'm going so slow.

00:50:37.000 | But you zoom out to 10 years, and you're like,

00:50:39.000 | wow, there's that startup you did and that book you wrote,

00:50:41.000 | and you have your journalism career going well,

00:50:43.000 | and we're like the room parent for your kid's school,

00:50:46.000 | and it adds up to a lot in the end.

00:50:49.000 | If you have to do these things concurrently, slow down.

00:50:52.000 | Whether you slow down or not, also pause things,

00:50:55.000 | be more sequential, do this and then do that.

00:50:59.000 | Days are short, but life is long,

00:51:01.000 | so there's a lot that can add up.

00:51:03.000 | What you want to avoid is, like,

00:51:05.000 | I want to do each of these things

00:51:06.000 | at the theoretical maximum level I could be doing it

00:51:08.000 | if I was doing it by itself,

00:51:10.000 | and I want to reach that level for all the things I'm doing,

00:51:12.000 | and I'm going to do them all at the same time.

00:51:15.000 | Because this other person had done all these things,

00:51:17.000 | they must have done it, and I could do it too.

00:51:18.000 | But you're forgetting they did that over five years,

00:51:21.000 | and they did this thing before they did that thing,

00:51:22.000 | and this took much longer than you thought.

00:51:24.000 | So slow down, and if possible,

00:51:26.000 | be a little bit more sequential

00:51:28.000 | and a little bit less concurrent.

00:51:31.000 | So Jesse, that illusion of concurrency

00:51:34.000 | is something I studied way back when.

00:51:36.000 | When I was writing student books,

00:51:37.000 | I was studying Rhodes Scholars.

00:51:39.000 | And the phrase I had for it back then

00:51:41.000 | was the paradox of the relaxed Rhodes Scholar.

00:51:43.000 | I interviewed all these Rhodes Scholars

00:51:44.000 | for my first book.

00:51:45.000 | They're not stressed-out grinds.

00:51:46.000 | Some of them are, but a lot of them weren't.

00:51:49.000 | There's a paradox.

00:51:50.000 | So if they're so accomplished,

00:51:52.000 | why aren't they jittery,

00:51:54.000 | I-haven't-slept-in-three-years type of locked in?

00:51:58.000 | It's because it's like,

00:51:59.000 | oh, they tend to aggregate accomplishments.

00:52:03.000 | I did this, and I did that,

00:52:04.000 | and then I kind of took my time on this.

00:52:06.000 | And over time, the list looks long,

00:52:08.000 | and then we have the illusion of concurrency,

00:52:09.000 | and we imagine someone doing

00:52:10.000 | all those things at the same time.

00:52:12.000 | But people are less concurrent than you really imagine.

00:52:16.000 | - How many books do you think you'll have written

00:52:18.000 | by the time you're like 75?

00:52:20.000 | - I don't know.

00:52:22.000 | Let me think here.

00:52:24.000 | I started writing when I,

00:52:28.000 | see, my first book came out when I was, what, 22?

00:52:31.000 | I'm 42.

00:52:32.000 | So that's like four a year, a decade.

00:52:37.000 | I'm gonna write four books a year.

00:52:40.000 | Forget slowing down.

00:52:42.000 | I'm gonna write four concurrently

00:52:44.000 | because I'm gonna disappear and transform myself.

00:52:47.000 | And I'm gonna live in the gym,

00:52:49.000 | and I'm gonna crush preacher curls

00:52:51.000 | while dictating.

00:52:53.000 | Here's what I'm gonna do.

00:52:54.000 | I'm gonna dictate multiple books at the same time,

00:52:56.000 | and I'm gonna have voice recognition software,

00:52:57.000 | and then AI is gonna fill it out,

00:52:59.000 | and I'm gonna crush preacher curls

00:53:00.000 | and write four books a year.

00:53:01.000 | It's gonna be awesome.

00:53:03.000 | So I guess at that pace, though,

00:53:04.000 | okay, 30 years from now, three decades,

00:53:06.000 | I don't know, maybe I've written another 12 to 15 books.

00:53:10.000 | If I keep writing books, we'll see.

00:53:12.000 | I like writing books, though.

00:53:14.000 | It's my favorite.

00:53:15.000 | All right, do we got a call this week?

00:53:16.000 | - We do. - All right, let's hear it.

00:53:18.000 | - Hi, Cal.

00:53:23.000 | I'm Sarah, an associate professor

00:53:25.000 | at the University of Ottawa.

00:53:27.000 | I've been the director of graduate studies

00:53:29.000 | for my department for the past three years,

00:53:32.000 | and I teach many of your deep work

00:53:34.000 | and slow productivity techniques

00:53:36.000 | to my MA and PhD students,

00:53:39.000 | which they have found incredibly helpful,

00:53:41.000 | so thank you.

00:53:43.000 | But now I have a productivity question

00:53:45.000 | of my own.

00:53:46.000 | How should I time block on sabbatical?

00:53:49.000 | I'm about to start a full year sabbatical

00:53:52.000 | and want to make significant progress

00:53:54.000 | on my research and writing.

00:53:56.000 | I'm starting a new book project

00:53:58.000 | and also preparing my application

00:54:00.000 | for full professor.

00:54:02.000 | While I know how to time block

00:54:04.000 | when I'm maxed out on service and teaching,

00:54:08.000 | I'm just not sure how to organize

00:54:10.000 | what feels like vast expanses of time

00:54:12.000 | to dedicate to my writing.

00:54:14.000 | I also have busy school-age kids,

00:54:17.000 | and so I'll need a clear shutdown

00:54:19.000 | complete ritual every day at 4 p.m.

00:54:22.000 | when the after-school activities start.

00:54:24.000 | Any advice would be much appreciated.

00:54:27.000 | Thanks.

00:54:29.000 | - Well, Sarah, first of all,

00:54:31.000 | I can completely understand your situation.

00:54:33.000 | I've been a director of graduate studies before.

00:54:36.000 | I'm currently the director

00:54:37.000 | of undergraduate studies for our department

00:54:39.000 | and just gave a talk about deep work

00:54:40.000 | to our grad students,

00:54:41.000 | so we got some concurrency here.

00:54:44.000 | All right, here's the key for a sabbatical.

00:54:46.000 | I've done one or two sabbaticals at this point.

00:54:50.000 | I've done one sabbatical.

00:54:52.000 | I'm up for a second sabbatical,

00:54:54.000 | but I'm holding off on it for now.

00:54:57.000 | But my summers are kind of like sabbaticals every year

00:55:00.000 | because I don't teach or do research on the summer.

00:55:02.000 | I don't take summer salary.

00:55:04.000 | Here's what I've learned.

00:55:06.000 | You have kind of two goals for this time.

00:55:08.000 | One, you want to make

00:55:09.000 | really good creative progress on your writing.

00:55:11.000 | So you have a writing project,

00:55:13.000 | probably like a book or something,

00:55:15.000 | and your full application,

00:55:16.000 | which I did last year.

00:55:17.000 | So again, like Sarah,

00:55:18.000 | we're really linked here in our timelines.

00:55:20.000 | That's just like another writing project as well.

00:55:22.000 | You want to make good creative progress on those,

00:55:24.000 | much more progress than you would normally make

00:55:26.000 | during a normal school year,

00:55:28.000 | but you also want to reap relaxation

00:55:32.000 | and flexibility and recharging, right?

00:55:35.000 | Like that's a key part of the sabbatical.

00:55:36.000 | So how do you do this?

00:55:38.000 | Here's what I do in my summers,

00:55:40.000 | and I'm going to suggest you consider this

00:55:41.000 | for your sabbatical.

00:55:43.000 | Instead of time blocking,

00:55:46.000 | use an aggressive scheduling template.

00:55:49.000 | So I've talked about on the show before

00:55:50.000 | the idea of like a weekly scheduling template,

00:55:52.000 | where it's like a general set of rules

00:55:55.000 | for what you do on different days of the week.

00:55:59.000 | And I'm going to give you my exact

00:56:00.000 | weekly scheduling template I use during the summer

00:56:02.000 | because it could be perfect for you,

00:56:04.000 | or you could use this as the foundation

00:56:06.000 | for evolving your own.

00:56:08.000 | So my scheduling template was,

00:56:10.000 | all right, Monday through Friday,

00:56:13.000 | first thing I do is write, right?

00:56:16.000 | So I start my day with writing.

00:56:19.000 | On Monday and Fridays,

00:56:22.000 | I'll take that writing until after lunch,

00:56:25.000 | do a very quick admin block,

00:56:27.000 | hey, what's going on with emails

00:56:29.000 | or anything I need to do,

00:56:30.000 | and then shut down my work.

00:56:31.000 | Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

00:56:33.000 | I write till lunch.

00:56:35.000 | I leave like 90 minutes after that

00:56:37.000 | for meetings and phone calls

00:56:39.000 | and the type of interaction with other people

00:56:42.000 | that you still even have to do during sabbatical.

00:56:44.000 | I might have more of this in my life than you

00:56:45.000 | because of my writing career as well,

00:56:48.000 | followed by an admin block

00:56:49.000 | and shut down before school's out.

00:56:53.000 | Like that could be your scheduling template, right?

00:56:55.000 | You don't really need a time block

00:56:56.000 | because you know what to do.

00:56:57.000 | You get the kids to school, you write.

00:56:58.000 | Monday and Fridays, you write longer.

00:57:00.000 | Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays,

00:57:01.000 | you don't write quite as long,

00:57:03.000 | but you have time there for like meetings

00:57:05.000 | and stuff you have to do.

00:57:06.000 | You know when your day is done,

00:57:07.000 | do a clear shutdown,

00:57:09.000 | and then it's all just like family household stuff.

00:57:12.000 | So you don't even really need the time block.

00:57:14.000 | That's more or less what I do in the summer,

00:57:16.000 | the one addition being on one of those days

00:57:18.000 | we have in the afternoon,

00:57:19.000 | the podcast recording.

00:57:22.000 | Just do something like that,

00:57:24.000 | and that's going to make sure

00:57:25.000 | that you're making daily progress on writing

00:57:27.000 | at the best time.

00:57:29.000 | It also gives you,

00:57:30.000 | like I like that template

00:57:31.000 | because it gives you freedom from meetings,

00:57:33.000 | Friday all the way through Monday

00:57:34.000 | if you add the weekends,

00:57:35.000 | and that's really nice.

00:57:36.000 | When you get to Thursday,

00:57:37.000 | you're like,

00:57:38.000 | I don't even have to look at my calendar

00:57:39.000 | for professional stuff

00:57:40.000 | until I get to Tuesday.

00:57:41.000 | That's like really nice.

00:57:42.000 | I really recommend that.

00:57:43.000 | It still keeps you doing just enough admin

00:57:45.000 | that you don't fall off the radar

00:57:47.000 | and stuff that's important,

00:57:48.000 | and you can still have meetings

00:57:49.000 | and stuff like that.

00:57:50.000 | I learned this lesson.

00:57:51.000 | You have to have time put aside for meetings,

00:57:54.000 | or what's going to happen is

00:57:55.000 | you're going to convince yourself

00:57:56.000 | all I'm going to do is write,

00:57:57.000 | and then when the inevitable meetings come up,

00:57:58.000 | you see each of them as like a failure

00:58:00.000 | or a problem,

00:58:01.000 | and that's psychologically not good,

00:58:02.000 | so just put aside time for them.

00:58:04.000 | My other piece of advice is

00:58:05.000 | after you shut down,

00:58:07.000 | this is a cool time

00:58:08.000 | to have a lot of like

00:58:09.000 | household or personal projects

00:58:10.000 | you're working on,

00:58:11.000 | like leaning into stuff around the house

00:58:14.000 | or with your kids,

00:58:15.000 | and we're going to

00:58:16.000 | completely renovate this room,

00:58:18.000 | or we're going to transform this,

00:58:20.000 | or we're going to learn this new thing,

00:58:22.000 | or we're going to go see

00:58:23.000 | all these shows or whatever.

00:58:25.000 | It's easy to tell yourself what you want

00:58:27.000 | because work is so exhausting

00:58:28.000 | until you get to your sabbatical.

00:58:29.000 | It's just to be able

00:58:30.000 | to kick your feet up

00:58:31.000 | and not have to do anything

00:58:33.000 | in the evenings and afternoons,

00:58:34.000 | but actually humans like to do things,

00:58:36.000 | especially if it's stuff

00:58:37.000 | that is self-directed

00:58:38.000 | with no deadlines

00:58:39.000 | and you're in charge of

00:58:40.000 | and you like it,

00:58:41.000 | so be really busy

00:58:42.000 | with your non-work stuff

00:58:43.000 | because it's kind of fun.

00:58:45.000 | I've learned that in my sabbaticals

00:58:46.000 | and my summers.

00:58:47.000 | It helps to have projects,

00:58:48.000 | but use a weekly scheduling template.

00:58:50.000 | Maybe start with mine,

00:58:51.000 | and if that doesn't work,

00:58:52.000 | you can adjust it as fit,

00:58:53.000 | but you don't even need

00:58:55.000 | the time block during your sabbatical.

00:58:56.000 | You have this like automatic schedule.

00:58:57.000 | You do.

00:58:58.000 | You love it.

00:58:59.000 | You don't have to think about it,

00:59:00.000 | and you'll get a lot of writing done.

00:59:02.000 | I can't wait till my next sabbatical.

00:59:05.000 | - When was your last one?

00:59:07.000 | - It was when Josh was born,

00:59:11.000 | so that would have been six years ago.

00:59:14.000 | - Oh, so last year,

00:59:16.000 | you just had a semester off.

00:59:17.000 | Was that it?

00:59:18.000 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:19.000 | So sabbaticals typically is six years,

00:59:23.000 | six years of normal semesters

00:59:26.000 | earns you a sabbatical.

00:59:28.000 | - Which is a year?

00:59:30.000 | - Well, so it depends, right?

00:59:32.000 | Depends on the program.

00:59:33.000 | Georgetown does what a lot of places do,

00:59:34.000 | which is it could be half a year.

00:59:36.000 | It could be one semester full pay,

00:59:38.000 | or it can be a full academic year,

00:59:40.000 | two semesters at half pay.

00:59:43.000 | The idea there being like

00:59:45.000 | if you want to take a full year sabbatical,

00:59:47.000 | it's typically because you're working on a project

00:59:48.000 | that you might have funding for.

00:59:50.000 | Like I have a grant

00:59:51.000 | from the National Institute of Health

00:59:55.000 | to work on this thing,

00:59:56.000 | and that's going to cover my salary.

00:59:58.000 | A lot of computer scientists

00:59:59.000 | will take a full year sabbatical

01:00:00.000 | and kind of work as a research in residence

01:00:02.000 | at like Google or something,

01:00:04.000 | and like Google will pay

01:00:05.000 | the other half of their salary.

01:00:07.000 | I can just, if I'm working on a book,

01:00:09.000 | I will use like the book advance

01:00:10.000 | to fill in the other half of the salary.

01:00:12.000 | So it kind of depends on places,

01:00:15.000 | but this is, it would make sense

01:00:17.000 | because when my youngest was born,

01:00:20.000 | I was on sabbatical.

01:00:22.000 | He's six, and I'm due for a sabbatical next year.

01:00:26.000 | That makes sense.

01:00:27.000 | So I'm in my sixth year.

01:00:28.000 | But I'm not taking it next year

01:00:29.000 | because I have all this stuff I'm doing

01:00:32.000 | for the university

01:00:33.000 | that I'm kind of seeing through.

01:00:35.000 | So I'm taking a little bit more time

01:00:36.000 | before I take it.

01:00:37.000 | But man, when I get to the sabbatical,

01:00:38.000 | I'm going to be coming in here.

01:00:40.000 | I'm going to be in like a tank top.

01:00:42.000 | I'm going to be like crushing a beer.

01:00:44.000 | I'm going to have sunglasses on.

01:00:45.000 | I've got my legs up.

01:00:46.000 | There's going to be some relaxed podcast.

01:00:48.000 | - We're going to move this studio next to a gym.

01:00:50.000 | I'm going to crush it.

01:00:52.000 | Preacher curls while I podcast,

01:00:55.000 | while I dictate.

01:00:56.000 | So my podcast will also be me dictating,

01:00:59.000 | just me dictating chapters in one of my four books.

01:01:01.000 | And we'll just multitask, baby.

01:01:03.000 | It's going to be awesome.

01:01:05.000 | Crush it.

01:01:06.000 | All right, let's see here.

01:01:07.000 | Oh, we got a case study this week,

01:01:09.000 | a case study with visuals.

01:01:10.000 | - Yep.

01:01:11.000 | - So case studies where people write in

01:01:13.000 | to jesse@kallennewport.com

01:01:16.000 | to give their case studies

01:01:17.000 | of using that type of advice

01:01:18.000 | we talked about here on this show

01:01:20.000 | in their own life.

01:01:22.000 | And today's case study is from Zach

01:01:24.000 | who sent some visuals.

01:01:25.000 | So those who are watching,

01:01:26.000 | instead of just listening,

01:01:27.000 | I'll pull some of this up on the screen.

01:01:29.000 | All right, here's what Zach says.

01:01:31.000 | I am 29 and have a full-time job

01:01:33.000 | as a church media specialist.

01:01:35.000 | The job is mostly graphic design work

01:01:37.000 | and people asking me to blast out announcements

01:01:39.000 | on social media.

01:01:40.000 | It's a good job.

01:01:41.000 | For the past decade,

01:01:42.000 | my creative pursuit has been music,

01:01:44.000 | primarily in the pop rock genre.

01:01:46.000 | After spending most of that time

01:01:49.000 | writing, recording,

01:01:50.000 | and performing in a couple of bands,

01:01:52.000 | I recently made the decision

01:01:53.000 | to start a new chapter as a solo artist.

01:01:56.000 | Starting in late 2023,

01:01:58.000 | I began the process of self-recording

01:02:00.000 | my first album

01:02:02.000 | and it was only possible because of deep work.

01:02:05.000 | My wife and I would determine

01:02:06.000 | which evenings would be good for recording

01:02:08.000 | and I would head out after dinner

01:02:09.000 | on those days to record

01:02:10.000 | as much as I could of whichever instrument

01:02:12.000 | I was tracking at the time.

01:02:14.000 | I didn't always feel excited and energized to start

01:02:16.000 | but the work always got done.

01:02:19.000 | Some of those sessions got cancelled or interrupted

01:02:21.000 | but the minutes added up.

01:02:22.000 | I recorded a total of 16 songs

01:02:24.000 | over nearly a year,

01:02:25.000 | 10 of which officially made the album

01:02:28.000 | which is currently in the mixing phase.

01:02:30.000 | The majority of recording for the album

01:02:32.000 | was completed in a 10'x20' indoor storage unit

01:02:36.000 | that was a short drive through town.

01:02:39.000 | Other than always being too hot or too cold,

01:02:41.000 | it served me well as a studio space.

01:02:45.000 | During that time,

01:02:46.000 | my wife and I were blessed

01:02:47.000 | to be able to build a home

01:02:49.000 | as well as a 16'x16' stand-alone shed

01:02:51.000 | that my father-in-law named Studio Z.

01:02:54.000 | Inspired by my productive times in the storage unit

01:02:57.000 | and by hearing about the concept

01:02:58.000 | of the writing shed on the podcast,

01:03:00.000 | I decided to go all in

01:03:01.000 | on setting up the studio shed

01:03:02.000 | in a way that I am hoping

01:03:04.000 | will spark creativity and productivity.

01:03:06.000 | The studio is just for creative work.

01:03:08.000 | It contains every instrument

01:03:09.000 | and piece of equipment I own

01:03:11.000 | as well as some key books

01:03:12.000 | from my library,

01:03:13.000 | my grandfather's Corona typewriter,

01:03:15.000 | cozy brown leather furniture,

01:03:17.000 | and other key items

01:03:18.000 | to make an interesting environment.

01:03:20.000 | The desk was made from a massive hickory tree

01:03:22.000 | that was in the middle of our property

01:03:23.000 | before the build.

01:03:24.000 | I even ordered some Studio Z coasters.

01:03:26.000 | All of this makes the studio feel very official

01:03:29.000 | and it still holds the unique charm

01:03:30.000 | of a writing shed or a small cabin.

01:03:32.000 | In addition, because building materials aren't cheap,

01:03:34.000 | the whole thing feels as weighty

01:03:35.000 | as a high-end lab notebook.

01:03:39.000 | If you don't know that reference,

01:03:41.000 | it's from Slow Productivity.

01:03:42.000 | All right, let's see some pictures

01:03:43.000 | before we get into this.

01:03:44.000 | Up on the screen now,

01:03:45.000 | for those who are watching,

01:03:46.000 | is the storage shed

01:03:48.000 | or storage unit

01:03:50.000 | in which he recorded

01:03:52.000 | the first album.

01:03:54.000 | So what we see here is it's narrow.

01:03:57.000 | You can see on the side

01:03:59.000 | that this is like corrugated metal.

01:04:01.000 | So this is like a storage unit.

01:04:03.000 | There's, I guess,

01:04:04.000 | is there not even carpet on the ground?

01:04:06.000 | Man, that must be echoey in there.

01:04:08.000 | There's a couch and some guitars.

01:04:11.000 | I see some Stratocaster,

01:04:12.000 | so I appreciate that.

01:04:13.000 | There's a piano and there's some drums, right?

01:04:14.000 | So this is a non-conditioned space

01:04:17.000 | in which he would go to record.

01:04:18.000 | Now I'm going to shoot over to the shed.

01:04:21.000 | Ooh, that looks nice.

01:04:22.000 | So here's an exterior shot of the shed.

01:04:25.000 | It's like a nice-looking mini house

01:04:27.000 | with gray siding.

01:04:30.000 | Look inside the shed.

01:04:31.000 | Ooh, very nice space.

01:04:33.000 | Good hardwood floors.

01:04:35.000 | We see a mini split unit,

01:04:37.000 | so he's got heating, he's got conditioning.

01:04:39.000 | And here it is all laid out.

01:04:40.000 | Oh, that looks great, Jesse.

01:04:42.000 | Brown leather chairs, hardwood floors.

01:04:45.000 | Cool stuff up on the walls.

01:04:47.000 | A nice desk.

01:04:49.000 | Some specific Studio Z paraphernalia,

01:04:53.000 | including this logo.

01:04:55.000 | Let's see.

01:04:56.000 | Oh, yeah, there's my books.

01:04:57.000 | All right, this place is awesome.

01:04:58.000 | There's his Studio Z.

01:04:59.000 | There's the Krona typewriter in the corner.

01:05:01.000 | That looks like something like

01:05:02.000 | maybe a Remarkable he has down there.

01:05:05.000 | Zach is speaking my language.

01:05:07.000 | This is awesome, Zach.

01:05:08.000 | All right, so a couple things to say about this.

01:05:11.000 | One, we see in this case study

01:05:13.000 | the slow productivity principle

01:05:14.000 | of working at a natural pace.

01:05:15.000 | We just talked about this earlier as well

01:05:17.000 | in one of our questions.

01:05:19.000 | Doing work consistently,

01:05:22.000 | good work consistently,

01:05:23.000 | sometimes you feel like it,

01:05:24.000 | sometimes it don't, adds up.

01:05:26.000 | And in the end, do you really care

01:05:29.000 | how quickly it adds up?

01:05:31.000 | Right?

01:05:32.000 | Zach wanted to record an album.

01:05:35.000 | Now, you might say,

01:05:36.000 | if I want to record an album,

01:05:37.000 | I have to be able to spend a month

01:05:39.000 | and go to an expensive recording studio

01:05:40.000 | and just do it.

01:05:41.000 | And because I don't have access

01:05:42.000 | to a month to do this,

01:05:43.000 | and I don't have access

01:05:44.000 | to an expensive recording studio,

01:05:45.000 | I can't.

01:05:46.000 | But Zach used a slow productivity approach.

01:05:48.000 | It's like, well, why don't I just record

01:05:50.000 | some nights each week?

01:05:52.000 | I have a space.

01:05:53.000 | It's not perfect, but it's a space

01:05:54.000 | I only dedicate to that.

01:05:55.000 | And I'll record what I can record.

01:05:57.000 | And it might just be laying down

01:05:58.000 | a bass track that I throw out

01:05:59.000 | the next time.

01:06:00.000 | And some of these will be canceled, yes.

01:06:02.000 | We're busy, something comes up,

01:06:03.000 | I'm not feeling well,

01:06:04.000 | but I'll just keep coming back

01:06:06.000 | relentlessly.

01:06:07.000 | A couple nights a week,

01:06:08.000 | let me make time.

01:06:09.000 | And it took a year,

01:06:11.000 | but a whole album came out of it.

01:06:12.000 | So that's number one

01:06:13.000 | I'm going to take out of this story.

01:06:14.000 | Number two is the power of spaces.

01:06:17.000 | Having a space to go,

01:06:19.000 | even if it wasn't a great space,

01:06:21.000 | it was a storage unit,

01:06:22.000 | helped him make that progress.

01:06:24.000 | This is a space I've dedicated to work.

01:06:25.000 | Can you take that seriously?

01:06:27.000 | I love then that once he had the resources,

01:06:29.000 | one of the things he invested in

01:06:30.000 | was a really nice space for creativity.

01:06:33.000 | We undervalue space.

01:06:36.000 | Like I have the Deep Work HQ,

01:06:38.000 | probably don't need it, right?

01:06:41.000 | I could record this podcast at home.

01:06:43.000 | I could record it in just like a small office,

01:06:45.000 | but it's like a fantastic investment.

01:06:47.000 | I come here to write,

01:06:48.000 | I come here to work.

01:06:49.000 | I've got my library here.

01:06:51.000 | We have the studio,

01:06:52.000 | like the nice studio here.

01:06:53.000 | It's a place that just changes my mindset

01:06:55.000 | to get away from it.

01:06:56.000 | The shed that Zach built is fantastic.

01:06:58.000 | He's got Studio Z custom artwork in there

01:07:00.000 | and big leather chairs.

01:07:02.000 | The total amount of sort of like creativity

01:07:04.000 | and peace and just energy

01:07:06.000 | that's going to inject into his life

01:07:07.000 | is a fantastic investment.

01:07:08.000 | So we undervalue space.

01:07:11.000 | We feel like it's a superfluous investment,

01:07:15.000 | but it's often not.

01:07:16.000 | Cool spaces really have cool effects.

01:07:20.000 | So was happy to see those pictures, Zach,

01:07:23.000 | and happy to hear your story.

01:07:24.000 | So our two lessons are work at a natural pace

01:07:27.000 | and space matters.

01:07:29.000 | Build cool spaces.

01:07:31.000 | More people should build cool spaces.

01:07:34.000 | All right, so we have a final segment coming up.

01:07:35.000 | I think we have another tech corner coming up.

01:07:38.000 | But first, I mentioned another sponsor.

01:07:41.000 | I want to talk about our friends at Element, L-M-N-T.

01:07:45.000 | Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix

01:07:48.000 | and sparkling electrolyte water

01:07:51.000 | born from the growing body of research

01:07:53.000 | revealing that optimal health outcomes occur

01:07:55.000 | at sodium levels two to three times

01:07:57.000 | government recommendations.

01:07:59.000 | Each stick, pack, or sparkling can

01:08:02.000 | delivers a meaningful dose of electrolytes

01:08:04.000 | free of sugar, artificial colors,

01:08:06.000 | or other dodgy ingredients.

01:08:07.000 | That's what I like about Element.

01:08:08.000 | No sugar, no weird colors.

01:08:11.000 | You can get those electrolytes you need

01:08:13.000 | when you've been sweating or speaking a lot

01:08:15.000 | and you're a little dehydrated

01:08:17.000 | and you don't have to worry about junk

01:08:18.000 | without having to feel like you're drinking

01:08:19.000 | like a super sugary sports drink.

01:08:22.000 | The stick pack is powder.

01:08:23.000 | She has put that in any water bottle.

01:08:25.000 | And then the can is that you can also get

01:08:27.000 | it already pre-mixed into a sparkling water

01:08:29.000 | that you can take out of your fridge.

01:08:31.000 | You kind of have those two options

01:08:32.000 | for getting to your Element.

01:08:34.000 | I use the stick packs.

01:08:35.000 | We got a whole box of them at home.

01:08:37.000 | I've already gone through a whole pack this morning.

01:08:39.000 | Especially, sometimes I feel dehydrated in the morning,

01:08:41.000 | I'll drink it.

01:08:42.000 | I'll drink it after workouts.

01:08:43.000 | After a long day of lecturing or podcasting,

01:08:45.000 | I'm going to take it as well.

01:08:46.000 | I'm a big Element fan.

01:08:48.000 | There is a kind of a cool list

01:08:50.000 | of the various people who use Element.

01:08:54.000 | U.S. Olympians, professional athletes,

01:08:57.000 | including Bradley Beal,

01:09:00.000 | many different special forces teams,

01:09:02.000 | health experts all use them.

01:09:04.000 | It always makes me wonder.

01:09:05.000 | I wonder if like the Navy SEALs

01:09:06.000 | or professional athletes,

01:09:07.000 | when they're doing their ads for Element,

01:09:09.000 | say like computer scientists,

01:09:11.000 | technology theorists use it.

01:09:13.000 | It somehow feels like less compelling.

01:09:16.000 | After like Cal Newport,

01:09:18.000 | who has written many articles for the New Yorker

01:09:20.000 | about the impact of technology on society uses Element.

01:09:22.000 | That somehow is probably not compelling to their audiences

01:09:24.000 | in the way that me saying that Bradley Beal uses Element

01:09:27.000 | is compelling to our audience.

01:09:28.000 | - You have been doing those preacher curls though.

01:09:30.000 | - I'm hammering out.

01:09:32.000 | This is my new ad read.

01:09:33.000 | Hey, let's say you're crushing hammer curls

01:09:36.000 | at the preacher curls at the gym.

01:09:38.000 | Work up a thirst.

01:09:40.000 | Got to pound some Element.

01:09:42.000 | Me and Bradley Beal agree.

01:09:44.000 | Pounding Element at the gym while doing preacher curls

01:09:46.000 | will help you get through not just two,

01:09:48.000 | but three or four books at the same time.

01:09:50.000 | Now I do use Element every day.

01:09:52.000 | They also have Element hot.

01:09:53.000 | People like the Element chocolate medley.

01:09:55.000 | These are flavors like chocolate mint,

01:09:57.000 | chocolate chai, and chocolate raspberry.

01:09:58.000 | Now we're in winter.

01:09:59.000 | You can enjoy those with hot water.

01:10:01.000 | Also helps when,

01:10:02.000 | I should do that with my throat.

01:10:03.000 | When I'm, you know,

01:10:04.000 | I feel it during allergy season, my throat.

01:10:05.000 | Some hot Element's what I need for the studio.

01:10:07.000 | Let's get some hot Element.

01:10:08.000 | - Yep.

01:10:09.000 | - All right.

01:10:10.000 | Let's talk to,

01:10:11.000 | let's talk to the team about getting us some of the,

01:10:13.000 | the medley there.

01:10:14.000 | It's all right.

01:10:15.000 | I'm a big fan of Element.

01:10:16.000 | It is the way to do your hydration.

01:10:18.000 | We got a good deal here.

01:10:20.000 | Members of our community can receive

01:10:22.000 | a free Element sample pack with any order

01:10:24.000 | if they purchase through drinkelement.com/deep.

01:10:28.000 | That's drinkelementlmnt.com/deep.

01:10:32.000 | And you will get that free sample pack

01:10:35.000 | within your order.

01:10:37.000 | I also want to talk about our friends at Z Biotics

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01:10:43.000 | We're talking like Christmas.

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01:10:48.000 | And if you were like me and Jesse,

01:10:50.000 | which is to say not super young,

01:10:53.000 | that's how I say our age now.

01:10:55.000 | Not super young.

01:10:56.000 | - Yeah.

01:10:57.000 | I have arthritis in my left knee.

01:10:58.000 | So I'm old.

01:10:59.000 | - I know.

01:11:00.000 | And I'm getting a CT scan tomorrow,

01:11:01.000 | but we're still going to hammer preacher curls when we can.

01:11:04.000 | We're not super young anymore.

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01:11:25.000 | in order to help you metabolize those drinks better,

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01:11:31.000 | So it is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

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01:11:42.000 | there's a by-product that's created in your gut.

01:11:46.000 | And it's this by-product that causes

01:11:48.000 | a lot of that rough feeling the next day,

01:11:50.000 | not like people traditionally claim just dehydration.

01:11:54.000 | So pre-alcohol produces an enzyme

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01:12:00.000 | So you drink the Z Biotic,

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01:12:12.000 | So it's a cool idea.

01:12:14.000 | Something that might not have been relevant when we were 21,

01:12:16.000 | but now that we're not super young,

01:12:18.000 | I'm glad that this exists.

01:12:19.000 | So with the holiday season upon us,

01:12:21.000 | when you know you might be consuming

01:12:23.000 | a bit more alcohol than usual,

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01:12:55.000 | All right, Jesse, let's do our final segment.

01:12:58.000 | I don't know if I should call this final segment

01:13:00.000 | Tech Corner or Cal Reacts.

01:13:03.000 | These are like the two things I normally do in this segment.

01:13:05.000 | Either I react to something in the news

01:13:07.000 | or I explain something about technology

01:13:09.000 | with my nerd computer science hat on.

01:13:11.000 | This is kind of a mix of both.

01:13:13.000 | I do have an article to bring up,

01:13:15.000 | but it's from four years ago,

01:13:16.000 | so it's not like it is timely in that sense.

01:13:20.000 | But there is a technology issue

01:13:22.000 | that I want to just briefly dive into

01:13:24.000 | because it's important to know about.

01:13:26.000 | I have a sort of a rogue point to add to the discussion.

01:13:32.000 | So the particular technology issue I want to talk about

01:13:34.000 | is so-called Section 230.

01:13:39.000 | And I have an article up here

01:13:40.000 | that I'm going to use to help explain it.

01:13:42.000 | This is an article from ProMarket,

01:13:43.000 | the journal ProMarket.

01:13:45.000 | Actually, I had an article in ProMarket not long ago

01:13:47.000 | about age restrictions on social media.

01:13:49.000 | This is an article written by Tim Wu about Section 230.

01:13:52.000 | It's up here as like an explainer

01:13:54.000 | because Tim is great,

01:13:56.000 | and he does a good job of explaining it.

01:13:58.000 | It's not that this is a contemporary article.

01:14:00.000 | All right, so if you're unfamiliar with it,

01:14:02.000 | Section 230 refers to Section 230

01:14:04.000 | of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.

01:14:08.000 | It grants an immunity to platforms

01:14:10.000 | that host the content of others.

01:14:13.000 | Critically, what it says is

01:14:15.000 | even if you are moderating on your digital site,

01:14:20.000 | even if you're moderating content,

01:14:22.000 | so you are making decisions about what's on there or not,

01:14:25.000 | you're still not liable for what this content says, right?

01:14:31.000 | So what this was trying to address back in the day

01:14:34.000 | was it was sort of agreed on

01:14:36.000 | or it seemed kind of like obvious

01:14:38.000 | that if you were just like purely a hosting platform,

01:14:41.000 | like I'm an internet service provider,

01:14:43.000 | like I'm not responsible

01:14:45.000 | for what people are doing on the internet through me.

01:14:48.000 | But then we began to get services

01:14:50.000 | that hosted information.

01:14:52.000 | So you had like Prodigy and CompuServe

01:14:54.000 | and then AOL.

01:14:56.000 | And they were worried, like, okay,

01:14:58.000 | but we're actually making decisions here.

01:15:00.000 | Like if you come on here

01:15:02.000 | and post a bunch of credit card numbers,

01:15:04.000 | we're going to take that down.

01:15:06.000 | Are we going to be treated like newspapers

01:15:08.000 | or can we still kind of treat like

01:15:10.000 | we're just like an internet service provider

01:15:12.000 | and we're not responsible for anything that was on there?

01:15:14.000 | This clarified that

01:15:16.000 | and it is now widely

01:15:18.000 | and strongly embraced in particular

01:15:20.000 | by something that did not exist back then,

01:15:22.000 | which is a social media platform.

01:15:24.000 | So it's sort of like the core

01:15:26.000 | of the legal immunity that social media platforms have

01:15:28.000 | for you suing them about stuff that's on there.

01:15:30.000 | Now, this doesn't actually stop

01:15:32.000 | all of those lawsuits.

01:15:34.000 | There has been, especially more recently,

01:15:36.000 | lawsuits aimed at social media companies.

01:15:38.000 | There's been some, for example,

01:15:40.000 | aimed at Meta.

01:15:42.000 | One of them from a couple years ago

01:15:44.000 | I've written some about was about

01:15:46.000 | you helped exacerbate,

01:15:48.000 | your content exacerbated

01:15:50.000 | eating disorder for like our child

01:15:52.000 | and you should be responsible.

01:15:54.000 | There's another lawsuit about our child committed suicide

01:15:56.000 | and we think in part because of

01:15:58.000 | what they're exposed to on your platform

01:16:00.000 | and this is sort of your fault. So there are some lawsuits,

01:16:02.000 | but there would be a lot more

01:16:04.000 | save for section 230.

01:16:06.000 | Today, there's a lot

01:16:08.000 | of discussions today about technology regulation,

01:16:10.000 | a lot of fights,

01:16:12.000 | a lot of agreement as well.

01:16:14.000 | Section 230 reform is one of these

01:16:16.000 | things that's on the table.

01:16:18.000 | Now, it turns out

01:16:20.000 | both the political left and the political

01:16:22.000 | right here in America

01:16:24.000 | have some interest

01:16:26.000 | in reforming 230

01:16:28.000 | or getting rid of section 230

01:16:30.000 | altogether. Donald Trump

01:16:32.000 | has talked about this as well

01:16:34.000 | recently. I think the Biden administration has talked some about it.

01:16:36.000 | But here's the thing, and this is what's

01:16:38.000 | pointed out in this article, they have

01:16:40.000 | different reasons for

01:16:42.000 | wanting to do this same action.

01:16:44.000 | Alright, so Tim Wu

01:16:46.000 | in this article summarizes

01:16:48.000 | how the left and the right

01:16:50.000 | think about

01:16:52.000 | the issue of section 230.

01:16:54.000 | Alright, so here's what the left says

01:16:56.000 | according to Tim Wu.

01:16:58.000 | "We have a huge problem with fascist disinformation

01:17:00.000 | and propaganda and the platforms

01:17:02.000 | are a big part of it because they bear no responsibility

01:17:04.000 | for what appears on their platforms."

01:17:06.000 | So according to Tim, the left

01:17:08.000 | wants to remove section 230 reforms

01:17:10.000 | so that you can

01:17:12.000 | hold platforms responsible for this

01:17:14.000 | "bad information" they're allowing to be on their platform.

01:17:16.000 | The right

01:17:18.000 | has a different reason.

01:17:20.000 | So here is Tim Wu summarizing the right's argument.

01:17:22.000 | "The platforms are grossly

01:17:24.000 | biased against conservative speech

01:17:26.000 | and they should only have immunity

01:17:28.000 | if they don't censor anyone."

01:17:30.000 | So what the right

01:17:32.000 | is upset about is

01:17:34.000 | especially like in the

01:17:36.000 | 2019-2020

01:17:38.000 | the 2015-2020

01:17:40.000 | there was this period in which there was

01:17:42.000 | heavy control

01:17:44.000 | of the information, the moderation

01:17:46.000 | and conservatives felt like

01:17:48.000 | things that are mainstream conservative

01:17:50.000 | points would be censored

01:17:52.000 | but not even like relatively extreme points

01:17:54.000 | from the left. They said this is because these companies

01:17:56.000 | are based in very blue states

01:17:58.000 | and the employees are just

01:18:00.000 | proportionately blue and this is

01:18:02.000 | not just moderating

01:18:04.000 | unsafe information, but it's like bias

01:18:06.000 | against conservatives. So they kind of have this sense that

01:18:08.000 | maybe somehow you could

01:18:10.000 | modify 230. They kind of want

01:18:12.000 | to modify it, not

01:18:14.000 | remove it in such a way that it's like

01:18:16.000 | if you are

01:18:18.000 | censoring us,

01:18:20.000 | if it feels like you're censoring conservatives, it's like

01:18:22.000 | this time bomb

01:18:24.000 | 230 disappears for you and you're going to be sued

01:18:26.000 | about everything, but if you don't censor us

01:18:28.000 | then you're still going to be protected.

01:18:30.000 | Whereas the left just says

01:18:32.000 | if we could just sue then we could stop you

01:18:34.000 | from publishing bad stuff. So they

01:18:36.000 | both want to reform 230 but for different reasons.

01:18:38.000 | Alright, so Tim's

01:18:40.000 | argument here

01:18:42.000 | is that both of them are misguided

01:18:44.000 | both the left and the right because

01:18:46.000 | reforming or removing 230 is

01:18:48.000 | not going to accomplish either of these goals.

01:18:50.000 | Which I think is interesting.

01:18:52.000 | So he

01:18:54.000 | says for example, yes, no one

01:18:56.000 | can deny that Facebook and Twitter, not to mention

01:18:58.000 | 4chan had been the breeding ground for lots of

01:19:00.000 | crazy disinformation and propaganda.

01:19:02.000 | But as Tim points out, so

01:19:04.000 | has Newsmax, Breitbart,

01:19:06.000 | ONI, the Gateway Pundit and dozens of other

01:19:08.000 | sites and broadcasters that are not subject

01:19:10.000 | to 230 protection because they're not

01:19:12.000 | digital information platforms.

01:19:14.000 | So in other words, he's saying

01:19:16.000 | getting rid of that protection is not

01:19:18.000 | going to in some sense make it possible

01:19:20.000 | for you to stop the information you don't like because

01:19:22.000 | there's plenty of news sources that don't have

01:19:24.000 | that protection and you don't like the things

01:19:26.000 | they are saying.

01:19:28.000 | So he says the liberals

01:19:30.000 | have a fantasy that potential civil liability

01:19:32.000 | would finally force platforms to do more

01:19:34.000 | about disinformation on their sites

01:19:36.000 | to take responsibility, but Tim Wu is

01:19:38.000 | skeptical that that would actually work.

01:19:40.000 | Alright.

01:19:42.000 | Then shifting to

01:19:44.000 | the right wing, he says the right wing

01:19:46.000 | fantasies about 230 repeal are

01:19:48.000 | even more off base. For one thing,

01:19:50.000 | without Section 230 immunity,

01:19:52.000 | well this is going to date this,

01:19:54.000 | a figure like Donald Trump would almost certainly

01:19:56.000 | be kicked off Twitter because he constantly defames

01:19:58.000 | people. Alright, he was kicked off soon after that,

01:20:00.000 | but his argument was

01:20:02.000 | you would

01:20:04.000 | have the opposite effect that if

01:20:06.000 | they didn't like things that conservative

01:20:08.000 | figures were saying, they would actually be more

01:20:10.000 | likely to just kick the figures completely off

01:20:12.000 | because they don't want to be sued about the bad things

01:20:14.000 | they say. They'll be more worried about that

01:20:16.000 | than, you know, being sued for

01:20:18.000 | kicking them off. He says you could get the opposite

01:20:20.000 | you could get the opposite

01:20:22.000 | result.

01:20:24.000 | Basically

01:20:26.000 | it would be too expensive to keep anyone controversial

01:20:28.000 | around because of all the lawsuits anyone

01:20:30.000 | controversial would generate. So he's like, no, no, what you're

01:20:32.000 | going to get is massive censorship

01:20:34.000 | and then these platforms are just

01:20:36.000 | going to be people sharing like pie recipes.

01:20:38.000 | As for

01:20:40.000 | erasing anti-conservative bias, repeal

01:20:42.000 | of Section 230 would have no obvious effect

01:20:44.000 | on that at all. The decisions

01:20:46.000 | to remove things like false claims of

01:20:48.000 | election fraud are actually decisions of the platforms,

01:20:50.000 | decisions for which they already

01:20:52.000 | bear liability, if any,

01:20:54.000 | zero effect.

01:20:56.000 | Right? So basically

01:20:58.000 | it's like I'm looking at this from a lawyer's perspective.

01:21:00.000 | Neither of these fantasies is going to be

01:21:02.000 | successful for removing 230.

01:21:04.000 | All right, I want to introduce a third

01:21:06.000 | reason. Not

01:21:08.000 | a lot of people are pushing this reason, but it's interesting

01:21:10.000 | to me. I

01:21:12.000 | call this the poison pill strategy.

01:21:14.000 | What's intriguing

01:21:16.000 | about something like Section 230

01:21:18.000 | reform is not the

01:21:20.000 | idea that it's going to make these global conversation

01:21:22.000 | platforms better,

01:21:24.000 | but that it might

01:21:26.000 | make them financially unviable.

01:21:28.000 | That's interesting to me.

01:21:30.000 | I am interested. I'm not saying I want to do

01:21:32.000 | this if I was in charge of the FTC tomorrow,

01:21:34.000 | but I am interested in this idea

01:21:36.000 | of poison pill regulation, that regulation

01:21:38.000 | that is invented to basically say

01:21:40.000 | certain forms of communication,

01:21:42.000 | which

01:21:44.000 | have been net negative, just

01:21:46.000 | sort of become kind of financially

01:21:48.000 | unviable, better ones will happen before.

01:21:50.000 | I know tinkering in innovation like this is

01:21:52.000 | dangerous, tinkering in the markets like this is dangerous,

01:21:54.000 | but in this particular case,

01:21:56.000 | the argument I made in the deep dive today

01:21:58.000 | and I made in my writing before,

01:22:00.000 | is that global conversation platforms,

01:22:02.000 | trying to build a platform like Twitter/X

01:22:04.000 | in which 600 million people are trying to

01:22:06.000 | talk on the same platform, is

01:22:08.000 | not intrinsic to the Internet, is not

01:22:10.000 | intrinsic to expression, is not intrinsic

01:22:12.000 | to free speech. It is a corporate

01:22:14.000 | play to try to maximize profits that doesn't

01:22:16.000 | work well. It plays

01:22:18.000 | poorly with humans. It is an aspect

01:22:20.000 | of the digital

01:22:22.000 | environment in which we are surrounded, the modern

01:22:24.000 | digital environment, that creates tons

01:22:26.000 | of disorders. The Internet does not

01:22:28.000 | need 600 million

01:22:30.000 | people on the same particular Internet site

01:22:32.000 | or app to give you all the benefits

01:22:34.000 | that the Internet promises.

01:22:36.000 | Much smaller

01:22:38.000 | niche organizations,

01:22:40.000 | people publishing their own information,

01:22:42.000 | accessible to anyone, that they stand

01:22:44.000 | by, small groups

01:22:46.000 | that are self-curated by communities

01:22:48.000 | that actually have stakes in what each other has to

01:22:50.000 | say, plus easy accessibility

01:22:52.000 | of information that's published in ways

01:22:54.000 | where people stand by it, like newspapers

01:22:56.000 | for example, all of this is fantastic

01:22:58.000 | stuff the Internet does.

01:23:00.000 | The problem is the mobile revolution

01:23:02.000 | and the shift of our experience

01:23:04.000 | with the Internet through our phones and the domination

01:23:06.000 | of mobile social media apps on our phones

01:23:08.000 | warped a lot of people's

01:23:10.000 | brains into thinking that these small number

01:23:12.000 | of apps that exist on our phone

01:23:14.000 | and have these massive global conversation platforms

01:23:16.000 | are somehow synonymous with the Internet.

01:23:18.000 | But they're not.

01:23:20.000 | And so if something ends up being a

01:23:22.000 | poison pill to these

01:23:24.000 | type of global conversation platforms,

01:23:26.000 | would probably be the medicine that the

01:23:28.000 | Internet needs.

01:23:30.000 | We do not need these for the Internet to be

01:23:32.000 | successful. So I'm always secretly

01:23:34.000 | hoping with some of these regulations that they're accidentally

01:23:36.000 | going to be a poison pill that suddenly

01:23:38.000 | makes the business model for something like

01:23:40.000 | Instagram or TikTok

01:23:42.000 | no longer make a lot of sense. I think a smaller,

01:23:44.000 | weirder, more esoteric,

01:23:46.000 | heterogeneous, distributed,

01:23:48.000 | more individual than large corporate

01:23:50.000 | Internet is a good one.

01:23:52.000 | And so there's the poison pill interpretation of

01:23:54.000 | Section 230 reform. I don't think

01:23:56.000 | many people share that, but I'm going to throw that into the

01:23:58.000 | conversation as long as we're going to geek out.

01:24:00.000 | Because I think it's another interesting way to think about

01:24:02.000 | what might be happening with these particular

01:24:04.000 | technological reforms.

01:24:06.000 | All right, Jesse, there we go. That's our

01:24:08.000 | tech policy corner.

01:24:10.000 | And the poison pill is from the Matrix?

01:24:12.000 | No, it actually comes from

01:24:14.000 | corporate takeovers.

01:24:16.000 | So in the '80s, where

01:24:18.000 | corporate raiders would

01:24:20.000 | borrow a ton of money

01:24:22.000 | and then use that to buy enough stock

01:24:24.000 | in a company to take control of it.

01:24:26.000 | So you had corporate raiders in the '80s where you had these brands

01:24:28.000 | whose market capitalization

01:24:30.000 | was less than how much money even just the

01:24:32.000 | stuff they owned is worth.

01:24:34.000 | We have $100 million worth of assets

01:24:36.000 | and our stock,

01:24:38.000 | their full market capitalization

01:24:40.000 | of our stock is $90 million.

01:24:42.000 | So what you could do is, I'm going to borrow

01:24:44.000 | $90 million, buy all the

01:24:46.000 | stock, and then sell

01:24:48.000 | all the stuff from the company and make a $2 million profit.

01:24:50.000 | So what Board started doing,

01:24:52.000 | and business people out here are going to say,

01:24:54.000 | "You got this wrong." But my understanding is what Board started

01:24:56.000 | doing is they changed the bylaws

01:24:58.000 | of their companies that have these rules in it

01:25:00.000 | that basically said things like,

01:25:02.000 | "If a single person owns more than this much

01:25:04.000 | of the stock,

01:25:06.000 | all of our employees

01:25:08.000 | have to be pantsless or

01:25:10.000 | we're going to take the engines off our planes." They call them poison

01:25:12.000 | pills. Things would go into effect

01:25:14.000 | that makes the company not valuable.

01:25:16.000 | If someone

01:25:18.000 | owns 51% of our stock, then

01:25:20.000 | we're going to burn all the printing presses.

01:25:22.000 | So they put these poison pill

01:25:24.000 | provisions into their...

01:25:26.000 | I think that's where it's from.

01:25:28.000 | Anyways, that's all the time we have for today. Thank you for listening.

01:25:30.000 | We're back next week with another episode.

01:25:32.000 | And until then, as always, stay deep.

01:25:35.000 | Hey, so if you liked today's episode,

01:25:37.000 | you might like episode 322

01:25:39.000 | as well. That's about the Discipline

01:25:41.000 | Ladder, which is a concept we got into

01:25:43.000 | in some of the Q&A today. A good way

01:25:45.000 | to brush up on that cool topic.

01:25:47.000 | Check it out. I'll look closer at how

01:25:49.000 | it actually works, then we will leverage

01:25:51.000 | this understanding to explore

01:25:53.000 | a new strategy, something I call

01:25:55.000 | the Discipline Ladder.

Should You "Disappear" Before 2025 To Reinvent Yourself? | Cal Newport

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