When Should Kids Get Smartphones? | Deep Questions with Cal Newport

00:00:00.000 | All right, let's do some questions of our own.

00:00:03.300 | Some deep questions of our own, Jessie.

00:00:05.400 | I have two in a row that are about children.

00:00:08.260 | So I figure we'll do, we'll start off our questions today

00:00:10.760 | with a child question block.

00:00:14.400 | Our first one comes from Sarah.

00:00:17.640 | Sarah says, "I'm particularly fascinated

00:00:21.680 | "in digital minimalism from a parent's perspective.

00:00:25.360 | "I'm really concerned about how my children,

00:00:29.140 | "the oldest of which is currently nine."

00:00:31.520 | Sarah, by the way, my oldest is also nine.

00:00:34.000 | So this is relevant.

00:00:36.280 | "I'm particularly concerned about how my children

00:00:39.080 | "will navigate the digital world as they reach the age

00:00:42.580 | "when they and their peers are likely

00:00:44.240 | "to first obtain smartphones.

00:00:47.000 | "Here in the UK where we live,

00:00:48.320 | "this is generally as they start secondary school at age 11.

00:00:52.300 | "I'm equally concerned how they will navigate adolescence

00:00:56.000 | "in the digital world we live now.

00:00:58.220 | "I'd really appreciate any information or advice

00:01:01.380 | "you may have directed towards parents on this topic."

00:01:06.240 | Well, Sarah, I do have some thoughts.

00:01:08.600 | These are the thoughts that makes me very unpopular

00:01:10.720 | among a lot of young adolescents,

00:01:13.720 | but I will give them to you nonetheless.

00:01:17.120 | Here's my TL;DR summary of digital engagement and kids.

00:01:23.440 | "I would worry about giving unrestricted smartphone access

00:01:28.440 | "to anyone under the age of, let's say, 16 or 17."

00:01:32.460 | In other words, 16 or 17 is probably

00:01:34.860 | the appropriate earliest age

00:01:37.780 | to give unrestricted smartphone access to a kid,

00:01:42.660 | certainly not 11.

00:01:45.140 | There's a couple issues here that are relevant.

00:01:49.220 | "I believe the evidence is becoming increasingly clear

00:01:52.920 | "that social media use during early adolescence

00:01:56.980 | "and during puberty or pre-puberty

00:02:00.500 | "is really potentially psychologically quite damaging."

00:02:03.220 | Now, your kid might be fine,

00:02:04.300 | but there's a big chance that they won't be.

00:02:06.020 | This is a danger zone.

00:02:07.740 | Early adolescent girls in particular

00:02:09.740 | who do heavy social media use,

00:02:12.660 | there's some real scary signals there,

00:02:15.060 | but forget the debates about the research literature.

00:02:18.460 | Social psycho-literature is very difficult.

00:02:20.220 | It's very difficult to get clear signals on anything.

00:02:23.320 | Just look at the target audience itself

00:02:25.360 | and see what they self-report.

00:02:27.680 | I hear this again and again from young adolescents.

00:02:31.600 | This is a source of anxiety.

00:02:34.080 | This is a source of feelings of self-harm.

00:02:37.120 | This is ruining my life.

00:02:40.480 | All occasions pointing towards

00:02:42.800 | heavy social media use on their phone.

00:02:45.520 | There's other issues with unrestricted

00:02:48.800 | smartphone use as well.

00:02:50.500 | Excessive video game playing is a big deal.

00:02:53.540 | These games are very addictive,

00:02:55.060 | especially those that are massively

00:02:56.600 | multiplayer online style games.

00:02:59.340 | Give, for example, a young adolescent male

00:03:02.220 | unrestricted access to games on their phone,

00:03:04.780 | and you might get six, seven plus hours of playing.

00:03:07.460 | They'll play them into the night.

00:03:09.020 | They'll show addictive tendencies

00:03:11.180 | where they can act out with anger or rage

00:03:14.820 | if the screen is trying to be taken away from them.

00:03:17.540 | Their brains are not ready for that.

00:03:19.000 | I think that is really damaging.

00:03:20.900 | The other issue is pornography.

00:03:22.640 | You give unrestricted smartphone use

00:03:24.360 | to a 12 or 13 year old,

00:03:26.600 | you are going to potentially generate

00:03:28.700 | some real issues with their developing sexuality.

00:03:31.760 | You might also develop some real issues

00:03:33.560 | in how they actually relate to or treat

00:03:36.160 | with respect or not the opposite sex.

00:03:38.360 | These are real issues.

00:03:39.680 | And we shrug our shoulders at it and say,

00:03:42.960 | yeah, but the other kids are doing it.

00:03:47.000 | And I don't think that's a strong enough rationale.

00:03:49.540 | I don't think that's a strong enough rationale.

00:03:52.200 | So what should you do instead?

00:03:54.520 | At the appropriate age,

00:03:55.480 | get them a phone with text messaging,

00:03:57.760 | but does not have the standard OS

00:04:00.160 | that can run social media apps

00:04:02.760 | and unrestricted web browsing.

00:04:04.680 | Get them a dumber phone,

00:04:05.780 | a feature phone that has text messaging.

00:04:07.560 | Sure, that's useful.

00:04:09.200 | That's very useful.

00:04:10.760 | Text me when you're done with practice

00:04:12.740 | and you want to be picked up.

00:04:13.580 | Let me text my friend and say, I'm coming over now.

00:04:15.920 | I think that's fine.

00:04:16.760 | I'm completely fine with that modern convenience.

00:04:19.940 | I mean, when I was in high school,

00:04:21.880 | it was all about pay phones

00:04:23.720 | and we had a calling card numbers.

00:04:25.540 | We had memorized and quarters,

00:04:27.160 | and you would try to call

00:04:28.640 | and hope that your parent was there.

00:04:30.360 | And if not, you waited.

00:04:31.440 | And that's not great from a convenience standpoint.

00:04:34.040 | So texting is fine,

00:04:34.960 | but not unrestricted access to the web or standard apps.

00:04:39.840 | What you also have to do instead

00:04:41.360 | is help encourage and guide your child

00:04:43.460 | so that they can find a social community

00:04:47.360 | aimed at some sort of common objective or goal,

00:04:49.460 | whether this is a theater troupe or a sports group

00:04:51.920 | or a band or a small fledgling teenage company,

00:04:56.920 | or they're in the first robotics club

00:04:59.640 | and in some sort of STEM style gathering,

00:05:02.980 | whatever it is,

00:05:03.820 | but something that they can be with other people

00:05:06.100 | and build up their skills

00:05:07.660 | and feel the sting of defeat

00:05:09.380 | and enjoy the camaraderie of success when they do well

00:05:12.540 | and let this be the core of their social experience.

00:05:15.300 | If you have successfully a group like this,

00:05:17.460 | but you don't use social media, you'll be fine.

00:05:20.700 | You're like, yeah, I have my buddies from the track team

00:05:23.100 | and they kind of rag on me

00:05:24.760 | because I'm not on TikTok or whatever,

00:05:27.220 | or I'm not on Snapchat or whatever,

00:05:29.120 | but we have this bond and we do these things

00:05:31.420 | and it's just like a quirk and you will be fine.

00:05:34.320 | What you would want to avoid, of course,

00:05:35.720 | is someone whose entire social identity

00:05:37.980 | is based just off of this digital world.

00:05:39.820 | That's no good.

00:05:40.660 | And if you're in that situation

00:05:41.660 | and take away that digital world, you're isolated.

00:05:43.300 | Yes, so we need alternatives.

00:05:44.900 | And I think that's really the key

00:05:48.340 | to making it palatable for a 12, 13, 14, 15,

00:05:51.540 | maybe 16 year old not to have access to these phones

00:05:54.060 | is that they are entrenched in things that matter to them,

00:05:56.300 | that connect them to other people

00:05:57.580 | and give them meaning and forward drive.

00:06:00.140 | That's what we're wired for.

00:06:01.420 | That can satisfy it.

00:06:03.240 | They will survive without it.

00:06:04.940 | The only other point I want to say, Sarah,

00:06:06.620 | is I picked up a strong current

00:06:09.220 | during my digital minimalism book tour.

00:06:11.900 | I picked up a strong current from contemporary adolescents

00:06:16.900 | of a backlash against these companies.

00:06:20.780 | In the last few years,

00:06:22.860 | I've seen this major social media backlash.

00:06:25.680 | This is media backlash against social media.

00:06:28.380 | Mark Zuckerberg has been transformed

00:06:30.240 | into a devil style character.

00:06:33.960 | Twitter is raked through the coals.

00:06:35.820 | This is all out there in the zeitgeist.

00:06:37.620 | I don't think these apps have the same atmosphere

00:06:40.500 | of countercultural cool that they used to.

00:06:42.500 | Now the countercultural move is perhaps to say,

00:06:44.740 | I don't use any of these things.

00:06:46.920 | Forget you, Mark Zuckerberg.

00:06:48.340 | I'm not going to use your app.

00:06:50.140 | Forget you, ByteDance.

00:06:51.660 | Good for you for getting a billion users

00:06:54.860 | to TikTok in only four years.

00:06:56.140 | I don't want to be a part of your attention mining factory.

00:06:59.940 | There is a growing countercultural street cred

00:07:02.300 | in being someone who knows what you're about

00:07:04.540 | and you're 14 and you're not on those things

00:07:06.580 | and you're killing it somewhere else and people like you.

00:07:08.980 | That thread was definitely one that was growing.

00:07:12.240 | And I think it's getting easier and easier

00:07:14.900 | to be one of those younger people

00:07:16.860 | who doesn't use these services.

00:07:18.420 | It's not seen as square,

00:07:20.060 | I think as much as it might be seen as forward looking.

00:07:23.900 | So this is all going to get easier, Sarah.

00:07:26.240 | So resist getting them a phone for now.

00:07:28.180 | Hopefully by the time your nine-year-old is 11,

00:07:30.940 | it'll be considered quite standard

00:07:32.820 | the fact that you are not giving them a smartphone.

00:07:35.740 | And even if it's not, you should resist.

00:07:38.900 | - I have a quick two questions actually.

00:07:41.580 | So in terms of getting the appropriate phone

00:07:43.780 | for just text messaging, when do you think that should be?

00:07:47.660 | - I mean, I guess it's regional.

00:07:49.260 | So around here, I don't know, it could be pretty early.

00:07:53.620 | Like around here, I know nine and 10-year-olds

00:07:57.820 | where they don't give them a phone yet,

00:07:59.900 | but they give them these watches

00:08:02.200 | and the watches allows them,

00:08:04.780 | there's three numbers programmed into it

00:08:07.460 | that they can call.

00:08:08.820 | So like this is typically their parents, right?

00:08:11.180 | And then you can do text messaging on the phone,

00:08:16.460 | but I think it's pre-programmed text,

00:08:19.300 | like a mom, my wife, or you're talking to it

00:08:20.900 | or something like this.

00:08:21.740 | But again, you can only talk

00:08:22.560 | to a small number of people on it.

00:08:24.060 | And it can also be a GPS tracker

00:08:26.580 | that your parents can use.

00:08:29.140 | And like around here,

00:08:31.140 | these watches will sometimes be used to allow,

00:08:33.440 | like to give more freedom to like a nine and 10-year-old.

00:08:35.460 | Like you can walk to school and back or go to the stores

00:08:37.580 | because like if you have some issue,

00:08:38.620 | you can just like press the button and it'll call me

00:08:40.580 | and I can come get you or something like that.

00:08:41.900 | So there's these transitional things

00:08:44.380 | that I think are good in these close in city environments

00:08:47.340 | where people are otherwise worried

00:08:48.540 | to have their kids be completely free.

00:08:50.380 | I don't know, I mean, to me, text message available phone,

00:08:53.740 | I mean, I'm thinking middle school.

00:08:55.460 | I don't know if that sounds reasonable to you.

00:08:58.700 | I mean, the kids you coach are older, right?

00:09:00.740 | They're high school.

00:09:01.580 | - Yeah, they are.

00:09:02.400 | - They're all plugged into the matrix, right?

00:09:05.140 | - One other question though, in terms of computers,

00:09:08.700 | like getting kids on computers and doing that sort of thing,

00:09:12.380 | is there a crossover or?

00:09:13.860 | - Yeah, but I think,

00:09:14.900 | the next question is gonna be relevant to this.

00:09:17.500 | I think it's good for kids to have access to computers

00:09:20.460 | but it should be in public.

00:09:25.340 | Here is the family computer.

00:09:27.300 | It's in the middle of everything.

00:09:28.920 | As we go about our business, preparing dinner,

00:09:31.540 | this or that, we see what you're doing.

00:09:33.560 | Don't have a computer in the room, at least until,

00:09:36.920 | - In their room.

00:09:37.760 | - Yeah, you're 17 and you're a hacker

00:09:39.440 | and you're gonna go to MIT the next year and like, fine.

00:09:43.640 | You can go do your computer hacking

00:09:45.440 | but you're 12, 13, 14 years old.

00:09:47.720 | Hey, you wanna go on like the Minecraft forum or whatever

00:09:51.280 | and that's fine, but I'm gonna, it's out here

00:09:55.160 | and we're gonna see what you're up to.

00:09:56.240 | - Yeah, that's a good idea.

00:09:57.360 | (upbeat music)

00:09:59.940 | (upbeat music)

When Should Kids Get Smartphones? | Deep Questions with Cal Newport

Chapters