Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love

00:00:00.000 | So contempt is criticism on steroids.

00:00:02.400 | This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love.

00:00:07.360 | Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt.

00:00:10.720 | Contempt is when you are looking at your partner

00:00:13.220 | from a superior position.

00:00:15.120 | So you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling.

00:00:18.860 | There's a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery,

00:00:23.740 | imitating them, imitating their voice.

00:00:26.440 | Contempt is meant to just take the legs out

00:00:28.620 | from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous.

00:00:31.820 | And it can be abusive,

00:00:35.180 | but most people have engaged in contempt

00:00:38.600 | at some point in their relationship.

00:00:40.000 | Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling,

00:00:42.280 | but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

00:00:44.640 | - The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry,

00:00:49.600 | a clinical and forensic psychologist

00:00:51.600 | who conducts research, therapy,

00:00:53.640 | and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma,

00:00:56.580 | violence, and relationships.

00:00:59.240 | She received worldwide attention in April of last year

00:01:03.080 | by giving a lengthy televised testimony

00:01:05.380 | on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard

00:01:08.800 | during the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial.

00:01:11.640 | I found her testimony to be an eloquent description

00:01:14.880 | of complex psychological concepts

00:01:16.800 | and evaluations procedures.

00:01:19.060 | So I reached out for a chat.

00:01:21.800 | In person, she was brilliant, funny,

00:01:23.840 | thoughtful, and truly kind.

00:01:26.400 | I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

00:01:29.000 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:01:30.920 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:01:32.960 | in the description.

00:01:34.160 | And now, dear friends, here's Shannon Curry.

00:01:37.420 | Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog

00:01:41.360 | that burns away with the first daylight of reality.

00:01:43.820 | I love that quote.

00:01:45.200 | Do you think romantic love fades away in this way?

00:01:47.920 | - Bukowski.

00:01:48.760 | - Does it have to fade?

00:01:50.780 | - The truth is that you have all of these chemicals

00:01:53.160 | pumping through your body.

00:01:54.320 | You're essentially high on heroin

00:01:55.860 | in the beginning of a romance.

00:01:57.720 | And you're going to have these rose-colored glasses on.

00:02:00.960 | Everything your partner does is magical.

00:02:03.700 | But really, it's the novelty.

00:02:05.200 | It's just like going on a vacation.

00:02:06.580 | You're fully present.

00:02:07.780 | You're just attuned to the magic

00:02:09.440 | of another human being moment to moment.

00:02:11.840 | And then on top of that, you're just flooded with dopamine.

00:02:15.200 | So you're high on drugs.

00:02:16.760 | And we can't go on like that.

00:02:18.600 | You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals

00:02:22.120 | all the time, all day long.

00:02:24.040 | So eventually, our bodies are sort of made

00:02:27.340 | to dial it down.

00:02:28.500 | We've made it.

00:02:29.340 | I mean, we're evolutionary beings.

00:02:31.700 | We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago

00:02:34.820 | to find a mate, procreate,

00:02:36.400 | spend enough time with each other that we have sex

00:02:38.320 | a whole bunch of times and make babies.

00:02:41.060 | Now we've changed the rules of the game.

00:02:42.960 | We're living almost till we're 100 years old.

00:02:45.860 | In some cases, we're making these marriage commitments

00:02:48.820 | that last half a century.

00:02:51.900 | And we're expecting it to be all because of love.

00:02:56.780 | And we're signing these contracts based on how we feel

00:02:59.340 | when we're high on these drugs.

00:03:00.420 | So the reality is we know based on the...

00:03:04.220 | And I'm also talking about

00:03:05.580 | certain Western civilizations here,

00:03:07.420 | because as you know, there are range marriages.

00:03:10.460 | And a lot of times, those marriages,

00:03:12.780 | if we're looking at longevity,

00:03:14.460 | are actually way more satisfied

00:03:16.660 | than people who are marrying for love,

00:03:18.620 | which logically makes sense.

00:03:20.840 | If you're making a decision based on a feeling

00:03:23.680 | that is basically based on endorphins

00:03:26.080 | and dopamine and oxytocin,

00:03:28.700 | I wouldn't sign a contract just because of a feeling

00:03:31.940 | necessarily for 50 years.

00:03:33.880 | Whereas an arranged marriage,

00:03:35.320 | if you have your elders kind of deciding for you

00:03:37.700 | that this partner has a bunch of traits

00:03:39.960 | that you're going to appreciate more and more over time,

00:03:43.580 | I think there's some wisdom there.

00:03:45.540 | - So you don't think that feeling could be a foundation

00:03:47.540 | for a 50-year relationship?

00:03:50.020 | - Well, I don't think that specific feeling

00:03:52.740 | you're having based on drugs

00:03:55.460 | is going to be the same feeling you have

00:03:58.540 | 20, 30, 40 years down the line.

00:04:00.780 | If you're gonna wake up and turn to your partner

00:04:02.980 | when you're 70 and think,

00:04:05.020 | "Oh my God, I'm so glad you're hot.

00:04:06.940 | "You are so hot,"

00:04:08.600 | then sure, marry for hotness.

00:04:10.700 | But if you've been through life a little bit,

00:04:13.660 | and I think most people who are on a second marriage know,

00:04:16.820 | shit happens in life.

00:04:18.300 | It is hard.

00:04:19.740 | You're gonna have maybe a kid with special needs,

00:04:22.580 | or your dad gets dementia,

00:04:25.540 | or you get diagnosed with cancer.

00:04:28.140 | Who are you gonna wanna come home to?

00:04:30.800 | Who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor

00:04:34.420 | and tell you, "We're gonna get through it together"?

00:04:36.580 | Who's gonna know the names of your kid's special ed teacher

00:04:39.740 | and the process for getting a 504 plan?

00:04:42.340 | Or is it gonna be you on your own?

00:04:43.940 | I think those things matter.

00:04:45.180 | - But doesn't that hotness,

00:04:47.300 | don't those drugs kind of solidify

00:04:49.900 | into a deeper appreciation of the other person,

00:04:52.540 | into something you could call beauty?

00:04:56.220 | - Yes, they can.

00:04:58.380 | - But isn't that the same thing?

00:05:00.740 | When you notice the beauty of another human being,

00:05:03.260 | aren't you high on drugs still?

00:05:05.660 | You're making it sound like there's a brief rockstar period

00:05:09.380 | of going on heroin and then it's over,

00:05:12.300 | but can't you be on heroin your whole life?

00:05:14.660 | - I have some good news.

00:05:15.700 | I have some good news.

00:05:16.740 | That was something, I think one of the reasons

00:05:18.900 | I got into studying relationships

00:05:21.140 | was because I wanted that, right?

00:05:23.140 | So I'm a scientist, but I also love art

00:05:25.580 | and I love writing and I love literature.

00:05:27.780 | I wanted to know that true love could be real,

00:05:31.560 | but as a scientist, I am cynical.

00:05:34.300 | I just need some data.

00:05:36.100 | And so I practice a type of therapy

00:05:39.180 | called the Gottman Method.

00:05:40.500 | And I love that because it tends to be,

00:05:43.860 | well, it is one of the most evidence-based therapies

00:05:47.020 | we have based on John and Julie Gottman,

00:05:50.020 | two psychologists who have been researching relationships

00:05:53.100 | for now about 50 years.

00:05:55.100 | And this therapy happens to be for couples.

00:05:58.300 | They found that you absolutely

00:06:01.380 | can make longevity work in a relationship.

00:06:04.340 | You can build, you are not just settling for companionship,

00:06:07.700 | but you can have passion and intimacy

00:06:10.300 | and growing love and appreciation.

00:06:12.700 | But there is a blueprint, a set of skills

00:06:14.900 | that we were never given.

00:06:15.940 | We're not taught it in school.

00:06:17.580 | We changed the rules of the game

00:06:18.940 | and we haven't learned the rules yet.

00:06:21.260 | - And the Gottman Method for couples therapy

00:06:24.060 | kind of gives you a few guidelines,

00:06:25.820 | the rules for longevity in a relationship.

00:06:28.100 | - Yeah, they did a beautiful job

00:06:29.700 | at taking these findings they had

00:06:32.540 | through decades of research,

00:06:35.060 | quantifying it and then codifying it into a therapy method.

00:06:39.900 | It's really skills-based.

00:06:41.340 | I tell couples when they're starting out with me

00:06:43.540 | that they're essentially gonna be starting a class.

00:06:46.180 | - So what's the five to one golden rule?

00:06:48.420 | What I read is there's a kind of balance you can achieve

00:06:51.780 | of how many interactions you have in a relationship

00:06:56.780 | that are positive versus negative.

00:06:58.540 | And I think that's what the five to one means.

00:07:00.700 | But basically there should be kind of an empirical,

00:07:04.620 | if you just look back over a month,

00:07:07.860 | how many of the interactions are positive,

00:07:09.500 | how many are negative? - Or the day.

00:07:10.860 | - Or the day, right?

00:07:12.620 | So the idea of this ratio, well, it's not an idea.

00:07:17.260 | It was a finding.

00:07:18.220 | It is a research finding that the Gottmans got

00:07:21.500 | after looking at thousands of couples

00:07:23.580 | and codifying these interactions that they were observing.

00:07:27.820 | Couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships

00:07:32.820 | that are happier, they have better health, et cetera,

00:07:35.940 | they are having approximately five positive interactions

00:07:40.860 | to each negative.

00:07:42.460 | And I wanna be clear about what I'm defining

00:07:44.580 | as positive and negative here.

00:07:45.980 | So this doesn't necessarily mean that you're,

00:07:49.020 | these don't need to be big sweeping romantic gestures,

00:07:51.660 | buying flowers, having sex.

00:07:53.860 | These are things like paying attention

00:07:56.020 | to what we call your partner's bids.

00:07:59.260 | We make these bids for affection, for connection

00:08:03.060 | all the time in our relationships,

00:08:04.740 | not just with our partners, but with our friends,

00:08:06.620 | our coworkers.

00:08:08.020 | And we may not even know what our style of bid is,

00:08:10.140 | but if you see them on a sheet,

00:08:11.460 | you can pretty quickly identify them.

00:08:13.420 | Bids could be wanting to show your partner

00:08:16.060 | or tell your partner something

00:08:17.300 | and have them be proud of you.

00:08:19.020 | It could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner,

00:08:22.700 | doing things together.

00:08:23.620 | Hey, you wanna come with me?

00:08:24.940 | It could be telling a joke and hoping that your wife

00:08:28.580 | looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it.

00:08:32.580 | If she laughs, then you've got a positive.

00:08:35.220 | But if I don't even look up, that's a negative, right?

00:08:38.980 | So it's not necessarily that I'm calling my husband

00:08:41.100 | an asshole, it's just, am I connecting with him?

00:08:44.380 | Am I meeting those bids for connection and vice versa?

00:08:48.380 | - But do those also give you a guide

00:08:49.940 | of how you should behave?

00:08:51.180 | - Well, I think what's really important

00:08:54.260 | is actually asking your partner

00:08:56.580 | or paying attention to what your partner's bids are,

00:08:59.180 | because what matters to Ty, my husband,

00:09:02.060 | may not matter to you.

00:09:03.300 | For instance, I mean, Ty's bar is so low with me.

00:09:06.220 | I thank God for him.

00:09:07.540 | - In terms of what defines a positive interaction?

00:09:09.740 | - Right, like he just wants me to ask him

00:09:13.380 | if he wants a water when I get up to get myself one.

00:09:17.140 | Just be a basic, decent, considerate person

00:09:19.900 | is all he asks of me.

00:09:22.020 | Whereas mine might be sort of like,

00:09:23.700 | stay up later with me, watch a show,

00:09:26.580 | go to bed at the same time as me,

00:09:28.300 | or know about the people in my life,

00:09:31.220 | that sort of a thing.

00:09:32.620 | - I should highlight this, and I hope hopefully it's okay,

00:09:34.660 | that you were running a little bit late,

00:09:36.580 | and you sent me this text,

00:09:38.300 | which people do really rarely,

00:09:40.660 | and there's a subtle act of kindness within that text.

00:09:44.100 | So the text you sent was that I just decreased

00:09:49.100 | the amount of stress in your life or something like this

00:09:51.100 | by saying it's cool.

00:09:52.500 | But that means that you're signaling that you were stressed

00:09:58.100 | because you care enough to be there on time.

00:10:01.620 | And that made me feel really special.

00:10:03.500 | I was like, oh, people don't always do that,

00:10:08.500 | because that makes you vulnerable.

00:10:11.500 | - Vulnerable.

00:10:12.340 | I actually thought that after I sent it,

00:10:15.380 | but I feel that most of the day.

00:10:17.100 | Any interaction, like, God, I just expose myself.

00:10:20.700 | But absolutely, I was excited to be here,

00:10:22.780 | and I didn't want you to think that I didn't care.

00:10:27.020 | I think being a therapist has shown me

00:10:29.620 | that it's so lucky to be in that position,

00:10:33.620 | because you meet people that you would have thought

00:10:36.380 | are cooler than you or smarter than you

00:10:38.420 | or just somehow impervious to life,

00:10:41.940 | and you realize that we are all in it together.

00:10:44.140 | We all want to be cared about and liked.

00:10:47.540 | We all would wanna be liked as a baseline.

00:10:50.380 | Some people will say they don't care,

00:10:52.300 | but everybody does.

00:10:53.460 | It's human.

00:10:55.180 | And I have gotten much better being a therapist,

00:10:57.820 | much more comfortable showing caring, showing love,

00:11:00.900 | and genuineness and vulnerability

00:11:02.860 | than I think I ever would have been otherwise.

00:11:04.700 | - And that kind of vulnerability is what's required

00:11:06.740 | to do a positive interaction in a relationship?

00:11:09.580 | - I think so.

00:11:10.500 | And people have different levels of comfort, right?

00:11:13.060 | So, but as long as it's working for both partners,

00:11:16.420 | and typically you have to communicate

00:11:18.540 | to figure out what your partner,

00:11:20.660 | what makes your partner feel cared about.

00:11:22.300 | However, you might be working, for instance,

00:11:24.620 | with an older couple,

00:11:25.700 | and I have a couple that's perfectly happy,

00:11:28.420 | and they sort of have a system.

00:11:29.820 | It works for them.

00:11:31.180 | If there's some sort of a rupture,

00:11:33.180 | if they get in some sort of a disagreement,

00:11:35.060 | they don't talk it out.

00:11:36.420 | She might go to the store, run an errand,

00:11:38.740 | do a little shopping.

00:11:40.020 | He'll work in the wood shop,

00:11:41.660 | and then they'll come back,

00:11:43.020 | and there is a repair attempt, though,

00:11:45.260 | but it's maybe she'll say,

00:11:46.940 | "Hey, do you wanna have dinner?

00:11:49.340 | "I made your favorite dinner."

00:11:50.860 | Or he'll say, "Hey, I recorded your favorite show.

00:11:52.940 | "You wanna watch it tonight?"

00:11:54.300 | So they don't need to process it,

00:11:55.940 | but there is an understanding between them

00:11:57.860 | that we're still in this together,

00:11:59.220 | we care about each other,

00:12:00.660 | and there's a repair attempt.

00:12:02.740 | Most people need to be able to process it verbally

00:12:05.420 | and talk about what happened, but not all.

00:12:07.620 | - So for most people, if there's a conflict,

00:12:09.700 | you should talk about it and resolve it and repair it,

00:12:12.460 | versus just put it behind you?

00:12:15.180 | - I don't wanna say should.

00:12:16.820 | I guess it depends on the couple.

00:12:19.020 | Everybody processes emotions differently.

00:12:21.340 | Everybody handles emotional expression differently.

00:12:23.980 | I mean, I have couples where I have one person

00:12:26.820 | in the partnership who has autism and the other doesn't,

00:12:30.420 | and so they're obviously going to have different ways

00:12:33.340 | of communicating or processing what happened.

00:12:36.060 | We all have different perspectives.

00:12:38.180 | It really depends on what makes a person

00:12:41.260 | feel like it's been repaired.

00:12:42.980 | What makes a person feel understood?

00:12:44.980 | Does that need to be verbal?

00:12:46.340 | Or in the case of that older couple I have

00:12:48.660 | where they know they understand one another

00:12:51.180 | because there's a gentleness toward one another after.

00:12:53.900 | - What are some common ways relationships fail

00:12:57.180 | that you've observed in all the therapy you've done?

00:12:59.860 | - Well, the Gommons identified what they call

00:13:02.540 | the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

00:13:04.540 | So--

00:13:05.380 | - Okay, what are the four horsemen?

00:13:07.460 | - I mean, I could just keep it simple

00:13:09.180 | and go off their research.

00:13:10.700 | So those are four different behaviors

00:13:14.140 | that they identify in couples,

00:13:15.980 | or that you can identify in couples

00:13:17.980 | that are really highly predictive of a divorce,

00:13:20.140 | some more than others,

00:13:21.180 | but I'll start with the lower ones.

00:13:23.700 | So one thing that we, by the way, actually,

00:13:26.780 | we all do these things.

00:13:28.780 | These would be in that five to one ratio.

00:13:31.740 | You'd wanna stay away from some of these.

00:13:33.580 | These are the ones.

00:13:34.420 | So as they pile up, now that ratio is gonna get imbalanced

00:13:38.180 | and then you are headed for a split, okay?

00:13:40.860 | So the first is criticism.

00:13:43.140 | So criticism is when we have a complaint,

00:13:45.700 | complaints are normal,

00:13:46.820 | but instead of owning our own problems, our own feelings,

00:13:51.180 | we assume that our perspective

00:13:52.700 | is the only valid, accurate perspective.

00:13:56.180 | And so we take it upon ourselves

00:13:58.660 | to tell our partner what is wrong with them, okay?

00:14:01.820 | So there's essentially no real belief

00:14:05.620 | that they might have a valid perspective too.

00:14:08.100 | So this could look like,

00:14:11.140 | you never helped me out with the house,

00:14:13.620 | or even you're so lazy,

00:14:16.700 | like can't I just get you for five seconds

00:14:18.660 | to help with the kids or something like that?

00:14:21.100 | And then what happens is horseman number two, defensiveness.

00:14:25.460 | So not everybody is defensive

00:14:28.340 | just because they were criticized.

00:14:29.860 | Some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others.

00:14:33.060 | None of us really like admitting our faults.

00:14:35.900 | So it's pretty natural,

00:14:37.940 | but defensiveness is essentially making excuses or worse,

00:14:41.300 | turning it around on your partner,

00:14:43.000 | not accepting any responsibility

00:14:45.860 | and definitely not validating what they're feeling.

00:14:48.620 | Now, if you get criticized enough,

00:14:52.060 | or if you get really flooded,

00:14:53.820 | the flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up

00:14:56.540 | kind of around 100 beats per minute,

00:14:58.620 | our frontal lobe shuts down.

00:15:00.160 | That's our thoughtful brain, our logical brain,

00:15:03.300 | and our reptilian kind of hind brain takes over our thinking

00:15:07.260 | and we just go into fight or flight in a way.

00:15:09.580 | We just wanna annihilate our partner

00:15:11.420 | instead of say anything

00:15:13.580 | that would be helpful to the relationship.

00:15:15.700 | So if you're getting flooded,

00:15:18.220 | you could do a couple of things.

00:15:19.300 | You could get super critical, you could get contemptuous,

00:15:21.900 | which I'll talk about in a second, it's the last horseman,

00:15:24.380 | or you do the third horseman, which is stonewalling.

00:15:28.160 | And in their research, the Gottmans found

00:15:30.140 | that men are actually more likely to stonewall.

00:15:33.040 | I also am someone who stonewalls,

00:15:35.300 | but it's where you just sort of disconnect

00:15:40.300 | from the conversation.

00:15:41.880 | You shut down, you turn away,

00:15:44.420 | you can physically even turn away, kind of arms crossed,

00:15:47.940 | but you're just, you're shut off.

00:15:49.860 | And stonewalling happens usually because you get flooded,

00:15:53.220 | you feel like you can't win,

00:15:54.500 | you don't know what to do to make the situation better.

00:15:56.500 | It feels pretty hopeless and talking feels unproductive.

00:16:01.340 | So you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship,

00:16:05.380 | the gender dynamic, we know that women

00:16:07.700 | tend to use criticism more often

00:16:09.780 | because they're the ones

00:16:10.620 | that typically raise issues verbally.

00:16:13.260 | And then if men are feeling more criticized,

00:16:16.420 | that they tend to stonewall,

00:16:18.220 | and it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism,

00:16:21.820 | but the criticism is really just a plea to be loved

00:16:24.860 | and get your partner to show you they care.

00:16:27.300 | And then the man tends to feel

00:16:30.180 | like he can't do anything right.

00:16:31.840 | This isn't even productive.

00:16:32.920 | If I say anything, I'm just gonna make it worse.

00:16:35.660 | And they don't have any real,

00:16:37.300 | you haven't given them a specific need, a solution,

00:16:40.140 | something they can do to shine for you.

00:16:42.100 | So they turn away.

00:16:43.420 | - And where does the contempt come in?

00:16:45.420 | - All right, so contempt is criticism on steroids.

00:16:48.080 | This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love.

00:16:53.020 | Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt.

00:16:56.380 | Contempt is when you are looking at your partner

00:16:58.900 | from a superior position.

00:17:00.780 | So you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling.

00:17:04.520 | There's a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery,

00:17:09.420 | imitating them, imitating their voice.

00:17:12.140 | Contempt is meant to just take the legs out

00:17:14.320 | from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous.

00:17:17.520 | And it can be abusive,

00:17:20.880 | but most people have engaged in contempt

00:17:24.300 | at some point in their relationship.

00:17:25.700 | Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling,

00:17:27.980 | but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

00:17:30.700 | - If you allow yourself to think,

00:17:32.700 | yeah, that mockery or contempt just a little bit,

00:17:36.660 | it's like this weird, slippery slope.

00:17:38.700 | - It sure is.

00:17:39.580 | - And the opposite is true,

00:17:41.980 | where I just look at a person and think,

00:17:45.020 | wow, isn't that the most wonderful creature

00:17:47.740 | I've ever seen in my life?

00:17:49.060 | Like, just think that.

00:17:50.100 | And you notice the little details about who they are.

00:17:52.620 | That's why I just observe them the way you observe

00:17:55.220 | a weird peacock at a zoo or something like that.

00:17:57.340 | - Intention is powerful, isn't it?

00:17:58.940 | - Yeah, and it changes.

00:18:00.500 | You start to notice beautiful things

00:18:02.260 | and then let the things that annoy you--

00:18:05.900 | - Yes.

00:18:07.180 | You're exactly right.

00:18:08.100 | You're touching on some really important things.

00:18:10.700 | So in relationships, we actually know

00:18:13.380 | that wearing rose-colored glasses is important.

00:18:16.380 | It's healthy.

00:18:17.220 | We need it.

00:18:18.860 | And it's a choice you're making, right?

00:18:20.820 | So there is a saying that getting married

00:18:25.540 | is just choosing one person's faults over another.

00:18:28.940 | And the reality is that we may become infatuated

00:18:32.940 | with somebody else as human beings.

00:18:34.500 | Love is an emotion.

00:18:35.500 | Attraction is an emotion.

00:18:37.300 | And as you go through life,

00:18:38.540 | even if you're in a committed relationship,

00:18:40.700 | you might see beauty in another.

00:18:42.580 | And that person who is novel might seem attractive to you.

00:18:46.340 | But if you can remember that they too have a set of problems

00:18:50.960 | that you would be marrying,

00:18:52.860 | it really helps you to see the beauty in your partner again

00:18:57.580 | and recognize all of their incredible strengths

00:19:00.220 | and all the ways we meld with a person

00:19:02.020 | and become our own family, almost become...

00:19:05.780 | I mean, our lives intertwine and we grow those oak trees.

00:19:09.940 | - So to you, by the way,

00:19:10.780 | there's a line I read somewhere

00:19:12.260 | that when you're wearing rose-colored glasses,

00:19:15.860 | all the red flags look just like flags.

00:19:18.740 | (Bridget laughs)

00:19:20.420 | I think it's a good line. - I love that.

00:19:22.420 | - So you think that humans are fundamentally,

00:19:26.340 | all of us are fundamentally flawed or have flaws.

00:19:29.860 | They're unique flaws.

00:19:31.060 | And basically, relationships is just a way to,

00:19:35.660 | figure out how the two can fit together.

00:19:37.420 | - Right, and we're different.

00:19:38.620 | So no matter what, we're going to have differences.

00:19:41.420 | We are raised differently than our partner.

00:19:43.420 | We have different stories,

00:19:44.820 | different experiences that shaped our value systems,

00:19:48.020 | especially when it comes to the big ones

00:19:49.980 | like parenting, love, money,

00:19:52.040 | these principles that are based in our history.

00:19:56.220 | We're gonna have differences.

00:19:58.300 | So is this a set of differences

00:20:00.860 | you can accept from somebody and work with?

00:20:02.940 | Do the benefits and do their strengths,

00:20:05.820 | do they make it worth it?

00:20:07.900 | Or are they deal-breaker differences?

00:20:11.620 | - Tricky question. - Sure.

00:20:12.580 | - But in the couples you've worked with,

00:20:15.300 | is there, like the feminine and the masculine,

00:20:18.820 | is there different dynamics that come into play,

00:20:21.900 | like dominant and submissive?

00:20:23.460 | Is it like a dance where it just changes

00:20:25.700 | from minute to minute?

00:20:26.900 | Is there dynamics that you observe

00:20:29.980 | that both limit and enable successful relationships?

00:20:34.980 | - Yes, so there are,

00:20:37.100 | if we're talking about masculine/feminine,

00:20:40.500 | then how also we could get into,

00:20:42.460 | are we talking about actual gender, identified gender,

00:20:45.580 | or are we just talking about these traits?

00:20:47.300 | Because like I said, I stonewall,

00:20:48.820 | which is typically in couples,

00:20:50.860 | something that is more associated with straight men.

00:20:53.640 | But that's my style of coping when I get overwhelmed.

00:20:59.380 | That is not tied to any sort of success

00:21:02.140 | or non-success of a relationship.

00:21:04.180 | But what we do know is that gay couples,

00:21:07.820 | so lesbians and gay men,

00:21:10.260 | tend to be gentler with one another

00:21:12.140 | when they are having conflict discussions.

00:21:14.440 | So that's actually been identified in the research,

00:21:17.260 | and it's something I've witnessed,

00:21:18.540 | and it's just fascinating.

00:21:20.380 | So with my straight couples,

00:21:22.500 | I'll be going through one of these,

00:21:24.420 | if we're processing a conflict that occurred,

00:21:26.500 | I'll be going through the sheet,

00:21:27.980 | and it's very, very structured,

00:21:29.420 | because you don't want couples doing more damage

00:21:31.700 | when they're there with you.

00:21:32.540 | You want them practicing skills

00:21:34.580 | that protect them from criticism,

00:21:37.100 | that protect them from contempt.

00:21:40.040 | And when I'm working with a straight couple,

00:21:42.620 | I am like a referee,

00:21:44.700 | or sometimes I'll relate it to being like a ski coach

00:21:47.860 | and keeping people on a bunny hill,

00:21:49.660 | and you let them make like two turns,

00:21:52.500 | and then you stop them,

00:21:53.780 | and you meet up again

00:21:54.780 | because you don't want them to veer off.

00:21:56.680 | With straight couples, you are doing very short turns

00:21:59.420 | before you need to kind of intervene and rescaffold.

00:22:02.500 | I had a lesbian couple recently,

00:22:04.580 | and they were so lovely with each other.

00:22:06.440 | They skipped like seven steps

00:22:08.620 | to the advanced final portion

00:22:10.540 | where they were already coming up with solutions

00:22:12.460 | and suggesting things

00:22:13.860 | that they might be able to do differently next time

00:22:16.120 | to make it better for their partner.

00:22:17.720 | They were asking each other questions

00:22:19.660 | about how their partner felt with no agenda,

00:22:22.220 | no attempt to sort of be like,

00:22:24.340 | well, do you think you're feeling that way

00:22:25.780 | because, which straight couples do all the time,

00:22:28.440 | you just see this humility and openness.

00:22:32.220 | It's lovely.

00:22:33.140 | - Yeah, it's lovely,

00:22:34.380 | but I wonder if maybe watching too many Hollywood films,

00:22:38.500 | if some of the drama,

00:22:40.300 | some of the tension is required

00:22:42.660 | for a passionate, lifelong romance.

00:22:45.100 | - No, it's not, and that's great news.

00:22:48.060 | So we actually know

00:22:50.500 | that the closer you feel to your partner,

00:22:53.660 | so if, I mean, you've talked a lot about beauty,

00:22:57.220 | and you can ignite that beauty, that interest, right?

00:23:02.220 | So when you're falling in love,

00:23:04.820 | it's usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you,

00:23:07.380 | and you're uncovering these layers

00:23:08.860 | that you find really appealing.

00:23:10.400 | There are continual layers

00:23:13.660 | that you can uncover with your partner over time.

00:23:15.820 | I don't think we realize that.

00:23:17.300 | I think we get complacent,

00:23:18.780 | and we think we've had every conversation imaginable.

00:23:21.140 | What else are they gonna do to surprise me?

00:23:24.180 | But we don't know the questions to be asking.

00:23:26.420 | One of my favorite questions,

00:23:29.240 | I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz

00:23:33.020 | because I get bored easily.

00:23:35.020 | So rather than just asking an open-ended question,

00:23:38.300 | there's a way you can do this with your partner

00:23:41.280 | where it's sort of like the dating game.

00:23:43.420 | Like, what is my as of yet fondest,

00:23:47.220 | but unrealized life dream?

00:23:49.580 | And see if your partner knows.

00:23:50.720 | You might not even know.

00:23:52.140 | They might know you better than you know yourself.

00:23:54.180 | That in and of itself is a beautiful reminder

00:23:57.460 | of the relationship and how special it is.

00:24:01.260 | But then also, when they say it,

00:24:06.260 | or when you realize or have to think critically,

00:24:08.580 | like, what is my husband's as of yet unrealized,

00:24:11.740 | but fondest life dream?

00:24:12.960 | And then you can talk about it.

00:24:14.580 | You just, I don't know,

00:24:16.620 | you just kind of transcend into this new area,

00:24:19.660 | and you feel tight again.

00:24:21.140 | You feel like, you feel close.

00:24:23.220 | - Well, you really talk to each other.

00:24:25.900 | Like, I've recorded,

00:24:28.460 | and without intending to publish,

00:24:31.700 | podcasts like this with microphones,

00:24:34.540 | with friends, with people close to me.

00:24:37.340 | 'Cause it's literally that.

00:24:39.020 | You get to ask questions, like as if it's an interview.

00:24:41.340 | - Right.

00:24:42.180 | - And we don't do that-- - That's exactly it.

00:24:44.340 | The way you're talking with me.

00:24:46.420 | Sit down with your partner, have that conversation.

00:24:48.860 | - Like years later.

00:24:50.020 | - Right, show interest, actually be curious.

00:24:52.940 | See what they surprise you with.

00:24:54.940 | - And actually, what you learn

00:24:57.140 | is you don't know the answers to most of these questions.

00:24:59.180 | - 100%, exactly.

00:25:01.460 | - Like, what's your favorite movie from the '80s?

00:25:04.620 | You might not know the answer to that.

00:25:06.180 | It's like those first date questions or whatever.

00:25:08.340 | - Or what's your favorite movie this year, and why?

00:25:10.740 | - And why, yeah.

00:25:12.140 | It's fascinating.

00:25:13.300 | - It is.

00:25:14.140 | - It's hard to do that,

00:25:14.960 | because I think that you'll probably be offended at first,

00:25:17.260 | how little the other person knows.

00:25:19.340 | So I think you have to work through that.

00:25:21.300 | - You know, I actually find that there's this rekindling,

00:25:25.420 | because partners are shocked

00:25:27.960 | that their partner does know so much about them.

00:25:31.240 | Especially if they've been feeling

00:25:32.660 | dissatisfied or disconnected,

00:25:34.700 | it's a reminder of all the good that's still there.

00:25:37.340 | - What, I know we've said some of those things,

00:25:41.340 | but what's on the opposite side?

00:25:43.080 | What's the key to a successful relationship?

00:25:44.820 | What's like, what are the things you see time and time again

00:25:48.500 | that you designate that they're on a good path?

00:25:51.020 | - Yeah, there's a real attunement, honestly.

00:25:53.940 | Just, it's sort of an us against the world feeling.

00:25:57.700 | Nobody, neither partner's gonna talk shit on the other.

00:26:01.740 | There's a loyalty.

00:26:02.860 | They handle each other in the relationship with care.

00:26:07.620 | You can tell that they've worked some things.

00:26:10.300 | To me, it usually indicates that these are some people

00:26:13.900 | who have figured, they've had to work some things out.

00:26:16.700 | They know that this is delicate.

00:26:18.500 | They know that you're on thin ice.

00:26:22.740 | You take a wrong step and you can be back

00:26:24.580 | in a tough place in your relationship.

00:26:26.180 | Or you treat it with care and it can be amazing.

00:26:29.140 | So they're careful with one another.

00:26:31.380 | They give each other compliments.

00:26:33.440 | They are considerate.

00:26:35.460 | So you'll see, he'll bring the car around for her

00:26:39.700 | because it's raining.

00:26:40.660 | Or she'll bring him home some takeout.

00:26:45.540 | She'll order for him too at the restaurant.

00:26:47.740 | They keep each other in each other's minds.

00:26:49.740 | - But that us against the world thing,

00:26:51.760 | that definitely is there.

00:26:54.660 | - 100%, you've seen that, right?

00:26:56.220 | - Yeah, you've seen it.

00:26:57.380 | And you've seen it, I like it when couples

00:27:00.220 | have been together for a long time

00:27:01.580 | and when one is talking, the other one looks at them.

00:27:05.580 | If you don't do that, that's not a bad sign,

00:27:07.340 | but it's a good sign when you do that.

00:27:09.340 | And I think it's actually a really good exercise to do

00:27:14.340 | because I enjoy when I see in others.

00:27:17.420 | It's a way to show that you don't take him for granted

00:27:25.020 | and that you still find them this mysterious,

00:27:27.960 | wonderful creature to observe.

00:27:29.520 | I think too often, we have that with our parents,

00:27:33.140 | we have that with people close to us.

00:27:36.980 | You think, yeah, I've heard what they're about to say.

00:27:39.060 | I know, I know, you can complete that sentence.

00:27:40.700 | - Yeah, take him for granted.

00:27:41.540 | - And then if you just look at them and say,

00:27:43.460 | wow, this is the most brilliant person

00:27:45.980 | I've ever seen in my life.

00:27:47.900 | I can't just appreciate every word that comes out of them

00:27:52.900 | and look at them in that way,

00:27:54.260 | you actually begin to believe it

00:27:56.020 | and you actually begin to see the beauty

00:27:58.860 | of what they're saying.

00:27:59.680 | - You are exactly right, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:28:02.660 | - And they feel really good. - And it's caring, yeah.

00:28:04.940 | It's very caring.

00:28:07.880 | I mean, that's, I think, the beauty

00:28:09.520 | of what the Gottman research showed us,

00:28:12.800 | taught us, provided us,

00:28:14.120 | is that we can do these things that become cyclic

00:28:18.040 | and just keep growing this relationship,

00:28:20.000 | making it stronger, more powerful, more loving.

00:28:22.120 | You would never want to cut it down.

00:28:24.440 | - Well, you were talking about the sheet

00:28:26.400 | for conflict processing.

00:28:28.500 | What are we talking about?

00:28:29.340 | So like a couple will come and say,

00:28:31.320 | like there was this conflict and you put it on the table

00:28:34.040 | and then what does it mean to process it?

00:28:35.360 | - Well, so in that Gottman method of therapy,

00:28:37.760 | there are all these different,

00:28:39.220 | I mean, hundreds of different interventions

00:28:41.120 | and based on what the issue is in that session,

00:28:44.560 | you can decide the most appropriate intervention.

00:28:47.400 | And so this is a specific intervention

00:28:49.720 | for if it is a conflict that occurred

00:28:52.900 | and there are different types of conflicts.

00:28:54.240 | So this would be more like an incident.

00:28:56.740 | It's not a perpetual recurring problem,

00:28:59.920 | which has actually a different intervention

00:29:01.960 | where you kind of look at the underlying

00:29:04.360 | belief systems values and there's,

00:29:06.960 | the goal is not to solve that problem.

00:29:09.520 | The goal in that situation is to actually

00:29:11.680 | just get a better understanding of each other

00:29:13.720 | and your positions and just,

00:29:16.160 | you stop seeing your partner as the adversary

00:29:19.160 | and you start seeing them as a person who makes sense.

00:29:22.080 | But if there's been a specific event,

00:29:25.560 | a specific fight that's just sort of situational,

00:29:28.440 | but it's left bad blood,

00:29:31.000 | things were said or you didn't feel understood,

00:29:34.280 | this intervention I was talking about

00:29:36.400 | is one that you would go through a series of steps

00:29:38.920 | where first you identify the emotions that you were feeling.

00:29:42.140 | Then you describe play by play your movie, your perspective.

00:29:47.140 | If your partner were looking through your eyes,

00:29:50.320 | this is what they heard, saw, thought,

00:29:54.220 | then they saw this, then they heard this.

00:29:57.040 | So you're not saying, yeah,

00:29:58.960 | then you came in and were yelling and acting crazy.

00:30:01.120 | You're saying, so then I saw you come in,

00:30:04.000 | I heard you say, and I thought to myself,

00:30:07.920 | well, great, now everything's ruined, right?

00:30:10.760 | So you're showing them your movie.

00:30:12.440 | Then they have to summarize the movie for you

00:30:15.880 | and then vice versa.

00:30:17.960 | And then there's this step where each person

00:30:21.000 | validates some part that they can understand.

00:30:23.960 | Like based on what you saw, heard,

00:30:26.280 | I can actually understand how you felt

00:30:28.640 | one of those feelings that you said.

00:30:30.960 | Then my favorite part is you rewind sort of the movie

00:30:34.280 | from that day back through into childhood

00:30:38.240 | and you land on a time, a memory,

00:30:39.920 | when you felt a similar set of feelings.

00:30:42.520 | And this is like the most beautiful part ever

00:30:44.800 | because let's say the feeling was I felt misunderstood,

00:30:48.680 | I felt misjudged, uncared about, unloved,

00:30:53.680 | like you didn't even like me.

00:30:55.400 | And I'll say, when did you feel that way?

00:30:58.200 | Land on a time and they're like, my whole childhood.

00:31:01.160 | My parents were, my mom was always accusing me

00:31:03.200 | of doing things I wasn't doing and it would set me up

00:31:05.560 | and my dad would come home, he'd hear about it,

00:31:07.440 | he would just believe her.

00:31:09.000 | And then you have like a partner climbing up on the couch,

00:31:12.400 | like give their partner a hug

00:31:13.760 | while they're sharing the story.

00:31:14.760 | It's beautiful.

00:31:15.600 | And it changes the way you interact in future disagreements.

00:31:20.160 | - So you have those moments.

00:31:21.080 | - Yeah, you can't unlearn.

00:31:22.840 | Now you know this about your partner,

00:31:24.320 | you know what they're sensitive to.

00:31:27.920 | - Yeah, and again, you kind of see the beauty

00:31:30.000 | in the flaws then.

00:31:31.120 | - Right.

00:31:31.960 | - And you--

00:31:33.000 | - It all makes sense, right?

00:31:34.600 | - It all kind of makes sense.

00:31:35.560 | - Yeah, so you maybe were in this dumpster dive

00:31:38.120 | in your head of how your partner sucks

00:31:39.760 | and all the things that are wrong with them

00:31:41.160 | and it's so hopeless.

00:31:42.400 | And then you get this light shining through

00:31:44.440 | and you realize, oh my God,

00:31:45.960 | of course they would be sensitive to that.

00:31:48.160 | And suddenly it's not about all the ways

00:31:50.840 | your partner is wrong and proving that they're wrong,

00:31:53.040 | it's just how can I in the future make sure

00:31:55.400 | they do not feel this again?

00:31:56.960 | I would never want this person I love

00:31:59.800 | to misunderstand me and feel so unloved.

00:32:03.240 | - What are you, the early days of that,

00:32:05.080 | what do you think about the whole dating,

00:32:07.280 | modern dating process?

00:32:09.440 | How do you find a partner that you can

00:32:11.920 | stay with for the rest of your life?

00:32:15.720 | - So we are absolutely doing it wrong.

00:32:18.080 | But there is a way you can do it.

00:32:21.360 | And I am such a fan of the psychologist Ty Tashiro.

00:32:24.280 | I adore him.

00:32:25.320 | He's brilliant, he's lovely,

00:32:26.760 | he's also very humble,

00:32:28.920 | just a wonderful salt of the earth guy.

00:32:31.640 | I'm gonna tell you a very true story here, okay?

00:32:34.800 | I was in a bad relationship

00:32:36.160 | and I was at a psychology conference

00:32:39.680 | with my partner at the time.

00:32:42.200 | We were both at this conference

00:32:43.960 | and we were sitting in a lecture hall

00:32:46.920 | there for Ty Tashiro to do his talk that day

00:32:49.960 | on his phenomenal research

00:32:52.100 | on relationship satisfaction and dating.

00:32:55.960 | And I was sitting next to him and we'd been,

00:32:58.800 | it was just always unpleasant on trips,

00:33:01.440 | there were always fights.

00:33:02.760 | We're sitting there and Ty Tashiro starts talking about

00:33:05.720 | his research and how he found that most people

00:33:08.560 | are signing this agreement, getting married,

00:33:11.800 | and doing it based on the love endorphins.

00:33:14.720 | And really only about 35% of anybody who's married

00:33:18.000 | is actually happy.

00:33:19.400 | And he said, so then, you know--

00:33:24.200 | - That's a pretty low number.

00:33:25.120 | - Exactly, but here's what I love about Ty Tashiro

00:33:27.520 | is he didn't stop there.

00:33:28.760 | He wanted to know what those people who were happy

00:33:32.160 | had in common.

00:33:34.080 | And then same thing with the people who were unhappy.

00:33:37.080 | He found a couple fascinating patterns.

00:33:39.720 | So the couples who were happy

00:33:44.480 | tended to rate their partners higher

00:33:47.200 | in three different traits.

00:33:48.920 | And I love talking about this

00:33:50.440 | because if you are somebody who can follow instructions,

00:33:54.400 | you can find this, I mean, very easily.

00:33:57.960 | Those three traits tend to be conscientiousness, okay?

00:34:02.720 | And I love the word conscientiousness

00:34:05.080 | because it's not just kindness.

00:34:07.480 | Kindness is a good way to think of it,

00:34:09.160 | but you can be kind and kind of be a pushover

00:34:12.320 | and that's not attractive.

00:34:13.720 | Conscientiousness is smart, attentive.

00:34:17.640 | It's somebody who reads into a text message and thinks,

00:34:20.680 | wow, she was making herself very vulnerable there.

00:34:24.040 | That's conscientiousness.

00:34:25.320 | - I like how you just threw in a compliment.

00:34:26.880 | I appreciate it. - It's true.

00:34:28.160 | It's a certain intelligence, awareness, and attunement.

00:34:32.200 | And then on top of that, conscientiousness is motivated.

00:34:35.680 | So you can't be on your ass all day and be conscientious

00:34:38.280 | 'cause then you can't meet the needs

00:34:41.400 | that you anticipate about the person.

00:34:43.240 | So conscientious is that guy who drives the car around

00:34:46.000 | in the rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get met.

00:34:48.400 | It's my husband who checks my alarm for me every morning

00:34:51.160 | 'cause he knows I'm terrible at time management

00:34:53.080 | and he makes sure that I set it a reasonable amount of time

00:34:56.400 | before my first meeting

00:34:57.800 | and not the 20 minutes I think I need.

00:35:00.120 | And then he'll come wake me up with a cup of coffee.

00:35:02.960 | That is ultimate conscientiousness.

00:35:05.720 | And it is true.

00:35:06.800 | I mean, I will tell you,

00:35:08.400 | as somebody who's with a conscientious partner,

00:35:10.080 | your love increases over time

00:35:12.840 | as you continue to feel grateful

00:35:14.880 | and admiring of that person.

00:35:16.520 | The second one, you want somebody who is low

00:35:21.320 | in a big five personality trait called neuroticism.

00:35:25.560 | You want somebody emotionally stable in a way.

00:35:28.520 | Now this doesn't mean you can't have somebody

00:35:29.920 | who doesn't get the blues

00:35:31.080 | or struggle with mental health issues.

00:35:32.560 | Trust me, Ty is with somebody who,

00:35:34.680 | you know, I'm all over the place.

00:35:36.480 | But you want somebody who kind of owns their shit

00:35:41.400 | and isn't going to just be emotionally unstable all over.

00:35:48.600 | You know, you want somebody who is generally happy

00:35:52.240 | and has some life satisfaction.

00:35:54.000 | Having a partner who has serious,

00:35:57.440 | not mental health issues,

00:35:58.840 | but unmitigated emotional distress and instability

00:36:03.760 | is really hard on the partner.

00:36:06.240 | And it's really hard on other family members,

00:36:07.920 | including children, if you have children.

00:36:10.040 | So it's just a predictor of happiness.

00:36:12.880 | - There's a certain threshold of chaos

00:36:15.520 | that if you exceed it,

00:36:16.680 | it's going to be destructive to a long-term relationship.

00:36:19.720 | - A perfect description.

00:36:21.200 | - But then again-- - About chaos.

00:36:22.920 | Not the mystery chaos you love

00:36:24.680 | with your little poet brain.

00:36:27.160 | I'm talking more like just somebody who,

00:36:30.400 | there's just no peace.

00:36:32.240 | There's no peace.

00:36:33.080 | There's a problem with everything.

00:36:35.320 | Everything becomes more difficult.

00:36:36.960 | Going to a party is a chore.

00:36:39.360 | You don't know if they're gonna have a meltdown at the party

00:36:41.680 | or how many complaints about your friends

00:36:44.160 | or everything is a problem.

00:36:48.000 | So you want somebody who has just some resiliency,

00:36:51.600 | I think is a good term for it, some flexibility.

00:36:53.800 | - Some spice is okay, but not too much.

00:36:55.760 | - Right, flexibility, resiliency, easygoing.

00:36:58.520 | The third is really interesting, I think.

00:37:04.480 | So he found that having a partner

00:37:08.280 | with sort of moderate adventurousness,

00:37:10.440 | not high adventurousness,

00:37:12.720 | actually leads to greater satisfaction.

00:37:15.240 | And the reason for that is high adventurousness

00:37:18.120 | equals novelty seeking, shiny new things.

00:37:21.960 | And so if you're in a monogamous relationship,

00:37:25.000 | if that is what's important to you,

00:37:27.240 | it's going to be very hard for a partner

00:37:29.680 | who is novelty seeking to be faithful.

00:37:32.320 | So that will cause a lot of pain.

00:37:34.920 | But also, novelty seeking people

00:37:37.920 | tend to always have new projects, new interesting things,

00:37:41.640 | and so their attention is drawn away from the relationship.

00:37:45.440 | And so you can just feel pretty neglected or unimportant.

00:37:48.840 | - But a little bit.

00:37:51.080 | - But you want a little bit of adventurousness.

00:37:52.720 | So you want your person to be sort of self-motivated,

00:37:56.920 | individuated, have their own interests,

00:37:58.680 | not completely dependent on you.

00:38:00.320 | But also, I mean, low adventurousness is not a bad thing.

00:38:03.400 | Ultimately, what you're getting

00:38:04.440 | with low to moderate adventurousness is that rock,

00:38:06.960 | that feeling of stability, that home.

00:38:09.040 | And I made some references earlier,

00:38:11.040 | like when you're 70 and you turn to your partner,

00:38:13.280 | do you want him to be hot?

00:38:14.760 | Or, for instance, my dad has dementia right now.

00:38:18.400 | And my husband turned to me on the plane,

00:38:20.040 | we were all coming back from a trip

00:38:21.480 | and where we really saw how severe it's getting.

00:38:24.640 | And he just turned to me,

00:38:26.520 | he knew how much pain I was in,

00:38:28.480 | even though I wasn't showing it.

00:38:30.080 | And he said, "I want you to know

00:38:31.920 | that if it comes to a point

00:38:33.040 | where we need to take care of your dad,

00:38:34.720 | he needs to live with us, you don't even need to ask.

00:38:37.560 | It is, I am 100% on board and will help."

00:38:40.920 | And those are the things that matter, that home feeling.

00:38:45.920 | And technically, that's a trait that's usually,

00:38:48.240 | that's sort of a, my husband caring so much about family

00:38:52.400 | and home and taking care of things that matter,

00:38:54.960 | those are things that tend to be associated

00:38:57.040 | with that low to moderate adventurousness.

00:38:58.840 | Somebody who really cares about simple things and family.

00:39:02.800 | - I wonder if those things,

00:39:04.040 | those three things are something you can work on.

00:39:07.400 | You know, conscientiousness, you can probably-

00:39:09.400 | - You can.

00:39:10.600 | - Proactively observe yourself and do it more regularly.

00:39:15.600 | - Right.

00:39:16.960 | - Neuroticism might be the hardest one, probably.

00:39:18.960 | - I think so.

00:39:19.800 | Well, I mean, I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s.

00:39:24.680 | - And when you wake up to it, maybe you,

00:39:26.840 | if you're self-aware about it,

00:39:28.040 | maybe you'll be able to control it.

00:39:29.320 | - Yeah, I think self-awareness is key.

00:39:31.160 | I think that's why I love therapy so much.

00:39:33.760 | I think life is about growth and our potential for growth

00:39:36.920 | and to make our own lives better,

00:39:39.600 | to make the lives of others better,

00:39:41.240 | to serve others, to heal.

00:39:42.760 | All of us are this collective healing.

00:39:44.480 | And I think we're all capable of growth.

00:39:47.240 | - And the same with adventurousness.

00:39:49.360 | I'm somebody that's pretty low on adventure,

00:39:53.480 | but I keep throwing myself out there

00:39:55.560 | just for the extra adventure.

00:39:57.160 | So you can grow in that way.

00:39:58.360 | - Yes, and I am high in adventurousness

00:40:00.480 | and I was not really ready to settle down.

00:40:03.400 | I was married earlier in my 20s,

00:40:05.960 | but I would say that I am much more prepared

00:40:08.680 | to be in a committed long-term relationship now in my 40s

00:40:11.800 | than I was when I was younger.

00:40:13.400 | - But in that same way for me,

00:40:14.560 | I like to connect myself to high adventure people

00:40:17.440 | so that it brings me out.

00:40:20.160 | It's like they're a horse and I get to ride them.

00:40:22.800 | - Yeah, and that's the thing.

00:40:23.960 | So high adventure people are attractive,

00:40:25.840 | they're interesting, exciting,

00:40:27.560 | but it can be a world of heartbreak

00:40:29.680 | because you're only under that spotlight for a few minutes

00:40:32.760 | and then they're onto the next shiny thing.

00:40:34.480 | - Yeah, but heartbreak is part of love.

00:40:36.960 | But that might be the drug thing

00:40:38.080 | that you were talking about.

00:40:39.400 | Speaking of adventurousness, what about sex?

00:40:42.120 | - Oh, sex is important.

00:40:42.960 | - What role does sex play in a successful relationship?

00:40:45.400 | - Well, okay, so I'm saying it's important,

00:40:48.400 | but I wanna qualify that.

00:40:49.800 | Everybody has different levels of sex

00:40:52.720 | that are satisfying to them.

00:40:54.360 | Sex can definitely bond you to your partner.

00:40:56.600 | Orgasms are amazing.

00:40:58.000 | They de-stress us, they're healthy.

00:40:59.960 | I mean, you can have an orgasm

00:41:02.880 | and have a lower level of stress for 48 hours.

00:41:06.720 | I think that's pretty incredible.

00:41:08.360 | If you have, I mean,

00:41:12.560 | just that kind of physical contact with your partner,

00:41:14.800 | even a 20-second hug with your partner

00:41:17.200 | has similar benefits to an orgasm.

00:41:19.560 | You're gonna have a lower stress level,

00:41:21.000 | you're gonna feel immediately close to your partner,

00:41:22.960 | you're gonna get a rush of oxytocin,

00:41:25.480 | which is gonna make you feel happier,

00:41:27.640 | more grounded throughout the day.

00:41:29.480 | So that's a 20-second hug.

00:41:31.520 | You extrapolate that to sex and things are gonna be great.

00:41:35.080 | - So it's just physiological.

00:41:37.000 | But I wonder, there's probably metrics

00:41:38.400 | about how often you have sex,

00:41:40.400 | how that correlates to successful relationships and so on.

00:41:43.040 | - Well, there are, but it really has more to do,

00:41:45.840 | it's sort of like, remember I was talking

00:41:47.240 | about processing conflict and what matters is

00:41:50.960 | do people feel like it's been resolved?

00:41:53.200 | Do they feel like there's been a repair?

00:41:54.800 | Not necessarily how they go about doing it.

00:41:56.960 | Same with sex.

00:41:58.600 | Does each partner feel sexually satisfying?

00:42:01.120 | So that could be once a month for one couple,

00:42:04.880 | it could be five times a week for another couple,

00:42:06.920 | it could be never for other couples, truly.

00:42:10.400 | I mean, so sex has a ton of benefits,

00:42:13.480 | but its absence isn't necessarily detrimental, I guess,

00:42:17.040 | would be the qualifier, depending on who you are.

00:42:19.600 | - And I know couples that use sex

00:42:23.120 | as part of the conflict resolution process.

00:42:25.440 | - It's hugely effective for that,

00:42:27.120 | if it works for both parties.

00:42:29.360 | All parties, not just both, all.

00:42:31.640 | - That's true.

00:42:33.120 | - What do you think about infidelity?

00:42:35.680 | What's the cause of infidelity?

00:42:39.920 | Why do men and women cheat?

00:42:41.600 | - It's different for everybody,

00:42:43.320 | but I mean, even earlier I was saying with adventurousness,

00:42:46.920 | like if monogamy is something you're doing.

00:42:49.360 | I've seen in my own practice,

00:42:53.600 | I've seen the entire range of couples

00:42:56.120 | who are open about having sexual relationships

00:42:59.040 | with other people and fine with it.

00:43:01.640 | Couples who wanna be fine with it,

00:43:03.400 | but find out they're not.

00:43:04.680 | Couples who aren't just couples,

00:43:07.720 | couples with multiple people,

00:43:09.720 | multiple romantic relationships.

00:43:12.160 | I've had couples where affairs are tolerated

00:43:15.760 | and not talked about.

00:43:17.200 | They're not enjoyed, but they are not the type of betrayal

00:43:22.200 | that will destroy the relationship.

00:43:24.200 | A sort of a understanding and keep it out of my face.

00:43:27.840 | And then also we won't talk about it.

00:43:29.440 | - So an affair that happened without getting permission first

00:43:33.320 | and as long as you don't talk about it,

00:43:35.360 | it's not going to do a damage to the relationship.

00:43:37.560 | - Right, but we can't even talk about it like that.

00:43:40.280 | So nobody's going to admit that the affair is happening.

00:43:44.080 | There can't be any evidence of it.

00:43:47.280 | It's sort of a just look the other way type of a situation.

00:43:50.680 | But the partner who is not having the affair,

00:43:55.160 | they typically know,

00:43:57.480 | they certainly know that their partner is capable of that.

00:44:00.640 | They just kind of know,

00:44:02.680 | but they don't want it in their face.

00:44:04.480 | It would become a problem if it was in their face.

00:44:06.980 | As long as certain needs are met

00:44:10.420 | and everything else is okay at home,

00:44:12.560 | it's just one of those things where don't ask, don't tell.

00:44:15.800 | - Well, that's an interesting point

00:44:17.200 | 'cause I've had a bunch of arguments with people.

00:44:19.920 | I tend to hang out with, especially in the tech sector,

00:44:24.960 | people who really value honesty and radical honesty.

00:44:28.440 | And I keep arguing with people about this

00:44:30.480 | because to me, it's not that simple.

00:44:33.720 | That's an example right there

00:44:35.080 | that honesty can be really destructive.

00:44:38.520 | Honesty is also a really complicated thing

00:44:42.240 | to get to the bottom of 'cause what is really honest?

00:44:44.600 | - Yes.

00:44:45.440 | - And how do I look in this dress?

00:44:47.820 | Like there's a million ways to answer that.

00:44:50.560 | - It's perspective.

00:44:51.400 | - It's perspective, yeah.

00:44:52.240 | - A lot of it.

00:44:53.060 | - It can be a cesspool in my mind.

00:44:53.900 | If I'm in a bad place or my partner and I haven't,

00:44:56.120 | like if Tayem and I haven't been connected lately,

00:44:58.840 | my honesty of what I actually think about him

00:45:02.080 | would be horrifically damaging and completely unfounded also

00:45:06.920 | but, and it can change on a dime.

00:45:09.160 | - And that's also not actual honesty

00:45:11.760 | to the big picture of how you feel about him.

00:45:14.540 | I have interacted with a few folks

00:45:16.760 | who talk about their previous sexual partners, for example,

00:45:19.200 | on the numbers of sexual partners they've had

00:45:22.280 | and they feel like that kind of honesty

00:45:26.880 | is actually empowering and enriching to the relationship

00:45:30.040 | because all the sexual experiences you've had in the past

00:45:33.920 | make you a better sexual partner,

00:45:35.640 | a better partner in the present.

00:45:38.040 | And to me, from the culture I've come from,

00:45:40.620 | that's like anti-romantic.

00:45:42.240 | - Yep, yep.

00:45:43.080 | - You kind of throw the past kind of away.

00:45:47.440 | You don't really talk about it.

00:45:49.320 | It's kind of there in this amorphous shape

00:45:51.880 | but it's almost as if you've met together for the first time

00:45:56.360 | and this is a beautiful new thing,

00:45:58.960 | like you're creatures that have woken up

00:46:01.960 | from a long slumber.

00:46:03.480 | - Right, you're starting anew.

00:46:05.240 | - You're starting anew.

00:46:06.080 | - Right, and you went some mystery there.

00:46:08.800 | - Right, I think the mystery,

00:46:10.160 | and you have to figure that out about each other

00:46:12.080 | so I'm not exactly sure that honesty is always--

00:46:15.520 | - Stigma for everyone.

00:46:16.360 | And then also is honesty harmful or helpful

00:46:18.800 | at certain points too?

00:46:19.720 | - Yeah.

00:46:20.560 | So you're talking about sort of like

00:46:22.480 | disclosing prior sexual history.

00:46:24.960 | I thought you were going to go to,

00:46:26.640 | so if you've had an affair,

00:46:28.760 | do you hold, do you keep that under your hat?

00:46:31.000 | - Oh yeah, that's a really tough question.

00:46:32.520 | - Or are you obligated to disclose it?

00:46:35.680 | - It's a really, that's a really nice--

00:46:36.520 | - It is a very tough question, very tough.

00:46:40.160 | - Well, what do you think is the right answer?

00:46:41.640 | - I have my own personal beliefs.

00:46:43.160 | I also then, like I have my therapeutic beliefs.

00:46:46.280 | I think, frankly, and this is just me as a human being,

00:46:50.480 | not Shannon the psychologist,

00:46:52.880 | I believe that if you have fucked up,

00:46:55.240 | and again, I'm coming from a framework right now

00:46:58.120 | of monogamy, if you are committed to somebody you love

00:47:01.960 | and you have fucked up,

00:47:03.600 | you don't get to shed your guilt onto them.

00:47:07.880 | You need to carry that burden.

00:47:09.680 | It's not necessarily, I think it's simplistic

00:47:12.480 | and unsophisticated to be like,

00:47:14.640 | but then you're being dishonest.

00:47:16.900 | I think it's actually selfish

00:47:19.080 | to unload it on somebody else

00:47:20.680 | and give them the trauma of imagining.

00:47:23.860 | What we do know about infidelity

00:47:25.220 | is that it can create an actual post-traumatic stress-like

00:47:30.120 | experience for the betrayed partner

00:47:32.520 | where they are having intrusive thoughts about it.

00:47:35.360 | Those are unwanted thoughts and it's uncontrolled.

00:47:38.840 | It comes in at multiple times a day.

00:47:40.440 | They'll have depressed mood.

00:47:41.600 | They'll have nightmares about it.

00:47:43.500 | Their entire sense of security, safety,

00:47:46.000 | self-esteem gets shattered because of your actions.

00:47:50.600 | I think it's kind of yet moralistic and naive to think,

00:47:55.600 | well, they deserve to know the truth

00:47:58.280 | if you actually know the harm

00:47:59.800 | that that sort of betrayal does,

00:48:01.500 | especially if you truly mean to stop it, right?

00:48:08.000 | So if it was a one and done,

00:48:10.440 | or if it happened and you've stopped it

00:48:12.760 | and you do not intend to do it again,

00:48:15.000 | frankly, I think you live with that burden.

00:48:17.880 | You live with that discomfort.

00:48:19.320 | - Thank you for saying that 'cause I totally agree,

00:48:21.720 | but it's like logically,

00:48:24.080 | it doesn't quite make sense to give that advice,

00:48:28.960 | but psychologically it makes complete sense

00:48:31.520 | because you really are destroying another person's mind,

00:48:34.880 | their faith and love in relationships,

00:48:37.960 | their trust, everything.

00:48:40.200 | And then you're imprisoning them to be stuck with you

00:48:43.560 | for months or years if you're trying to work through it,

00:48:46.160 | through that torture.

00:48:47.720 | So you should be carrying that burden

00:48:49.240 | and working through it, I think.

00:48:50.720 | Why do you say that that's your personal opinion

00:48:53.120 | versus your therapeutic?

00:48:54.880 | - Well, I think everybody has different values.

00:48:57.280 | So I think that's a value-based decision

00:49:00.160 | because to me, the hierarchy is kindness

00:49:03.040 | and do no further harm,

00:49:05.900 | over, in that case, over truth, right?

00:49:12.600 | Whereas other people, my husband, for instance,

00:49:16.080 | he is like truth above all else.

00:49:18.080 | You don't get to decide what I know

00:49:21.040 | or you don't get to decide whether or not

00:49:23.040 | I can handle that knowledge.

00:49:24.220 | So he would even see my determination

00:49:26.960 | of that I should carry the burden sort of arrogant.

00:49:30.680 | Like, well, why don't you let your partner decide

00:49:33.120 | whether or not they, why do you get to choose?

00:49:35.720 | I don't know.

00:49:36.560 | I think there's value to both arguments.

00:49:38.840 | I absolutely see his point. - It's fascinating.

00:49:40.800 | - I absolutely see his point.

00:49:42.840 | And his, I think, is like a very humble sort of option.

00:49:45.840 | Like, you don't get to choose what's better.

00:49:48.920 | You just need to give them the information

00:49:51.400 | and they can choose.

00:49:53.240 | But I think, I don't know, I think it's kinder to hold.

00:49:56.280 | I think it's going to cause your conscience

00:49:58.280 | more discomfort to hold it.

00:50:00.240 | And I think there's sort of a cleansing we do

00:50:02.720 | when we share that information.

00:50:04.220 | I think in real life, most people disclose it

00:50:06.760 | because they can't stand the secret anymore themselves.

00:50:10.200 | That, to me, is a selfish act.

00:50:11.960 | - I have unemployment applications and so on,

00:50:14.680 | and just with friends, would ask people,

00:50:17.760 | what do you care more about, truth or loyalty?

00:50:20.640 | Just to get to see how they think

00:50:22.200 | about those different questions.

00:50:24.920 | And yeah, I was surprised how much variance

00:50:29.720 | there is on that.

00:50:30.560 | - And also, conceptually, I bet,

00:50:32.600 | conceptually, I don't think we actually know where we stand

00:50:36.240 | until we're faced with a situation like that.

00:50:38.520 | - Yeah, I think people, a lot of people,

00:50:41.240 | especially when they're younger, say,

00:50:43.360 | especially if they're kind of intellectual,

00:50:45.400 | they'll say truth above all else.

00:50:47.460 | - Yeah.

00:50:48.300 | - It's like, all right.

00:50:49.120 | - You're exactly right.

00:50:50.040 | - All right.

00:50:50.880 | (laughing)

00:50:52.960 | - It's a platitude.

00:50:54.320 | - Until you get to hear a truth that truly breaks you,

00:50:57.360 | truly hurts you, or causes suffering to you,

00:51:00.240 | and then you realize, or a truth you give to somebody else

00:51:03.200 | will cause them suffering.

00:51:04.840 | And then you get to see that suffering destroy their life

00:51:08.360 | and maybe your relationship and so on.

00:51:10.000 | And then you're like, oh.

00:51:10.840 | - Yeah, like, should I sit my dad down right now

00:51:12.720 | and be like, dad, you have dementia again today.

00:51:16.080 | I'm gonna tell you, dad, you're not making sense.

00:51:18.040 | No, it's not going to be discussed.

00:51:20.960 | We're gonna make him uncomfortable.

00:51:22.160 | And I mean, yeah, I think truth can be

00:51:24.720 | a little bit of a platitude sometimes.

00:51:26.400 | - Some of those complexities are all the things involved

00:51:28.880 | in the challenges of what makes a relationship work, right?

00:51:33.880 | What do you think about open relationships in general?

00:51:37.440 | My worldview is such that I see the beauty

00:51:40.360 | and value in monogamous relationships just for me,

00:51:43.320 | but I'm also open to the possibility

00:51:46.800 | of what works for other people.

00:51:48.520 | Have you done any kind of work

00:51:49.800 | with people in open relationships?

00:51:51.920 | - As clients or research?

00:51:53.040 | - As clients.

00:51:53.880 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:51:55.160 | - Is there some interesting differences

00:51:56.920 | between open relationships and monogamous relationships?

00:52:00.640 | - You know, I think that may have been actually

00:52:03.040 | what was behind my question about the satisfaction

00:52:07.080 | with them being on the extremes.

00:52:08.160 | My hypothesis essentially was, is it because they,

00:52:11.600 | if you are really all in,

00:52:13.520 | you've worked out some of the kinks.

00:52:15.000 | I think I've seen couples who are trying it out,

00:52:20.000 | like for the first time, it tends to get a little haywire.

00:52:24.760 | There's some excitement in the beginning.

00:52:26.400 | Everybody's really excited about it.

00:52:28.240 | I think the philosophy makes sense to a lot of people.

00:52:31.840 | The science of it makes sense to a lot of people.

00:52:35.960 | But we have been raised in a society

00:52:38.280 | that is pretty monogamous.

00:52:39.720 | So there isn't a lot of scaffolding around it.

00:52:42.800 | And there's a lot of inner conflict, I think,

00:52:45.800 | for people to go away from the values

00:52:47.360 | that they've been taught since they were kids.

00:52:49.560 | And so jealousy arises a lot.

00:52:52.000 | And also it's very difficult to be, I think,

00:52:56.920 | as truthful and direct as you need to be,

00:52:59.400 | which you're describing in these polyamorous situations

00:53:02.440 | where everybody is laid out on the table.

00:53:06.000 | So I think that's something that may be practiced.

00:53:08.200 | In my own work with clients,

00:53:10.480 | I've just noticed that the partners

00:53:15.240 | who are happier in these situations who I've worked with,

00:53:20.080 | they are more experienced at it.

00:53:21.920 | They seem to have it down.

00:53:24.480 | - You testified in the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial

00:53:29.560 | based on your role as a clinical and forensic psychologist.

00:53:32.720 | It was watched by, I don't know how many people,

00:53:34.760 | maybe tens, maybe hundreds of millions of people.

00:53:37.480 | What was that experience like?

00:53:38.800 | - Thank God I didn't know that at the time.

00:53:41.480 | - Were you scared?

00:53:43.200 | - Oh yeah.

00:53:44.080 | - Given the size of the platform,

00:53:45.360 | how many people are watching?

00:53:47.160 | - Scared typically isn't the word when I testify.

00:53:49.480 | I'm always excited and a little trepidatious

00:53:54.080 | before I testify because the stakes are so high

00:53:57.680 | for everybody's life in that room.

00:53:59.720 | This was different.

00:54:02.600 | I, anxiety isn't usually my brand.

00:54:06.360 | (Dave laughs)

00:54:07.400 | And I just skipped anxiety that morning

00:54:09.760 | and went straight to terror.

00:54:10.960 | And I was mad, I was mad at the legal team.

00:54:13.280 | I was funny, like I was having all these strong emotions.

00:54:15.520 | I couldn't find my bobby pins.

00:54:17.440 | I almost started crying 'cause I couldn't find them.

00:54:20.000 | I was pretty unhinged that morning

00:54:22.640 | and in a way that was really unfamiliar to me.

00:54:25.380 | And it was right when I cried

00:54:27.840 | 'cause I couldn't find my bobby pins

00:54:29.860 | that I realized I needed to get a grip

00:54:32.640 | and that I was a professional

00:54:33.800 | and that my hair didn't matter

00:54:35.320 | even though it ended up mattering.

00:54:36.760 | People noticed that it was crazy.

00:54:38.480 | But I got a grip and I went in and I just did my job.

00:54:43.240 | - So the terror in the end helped you focus

00:54:47.480 | and do your job well.

00:54:48.840 | - I think it does.

00:54:49.820 | And it's a little scary though

00:54:51.080 | 'cause I know what fear does cognitively.

00:54:53.940 | And there is a sweet spot where you want some stress

00:54:58.580 | and then you can be really acutely focused and attuned.

00:55:02.320 | But then if you go over this threshold,

00:55:05.160 | you get sort of that frontal lobe shutdown

00:55:08.360 | where you're not thinking clearly.

00:55:09.640 | And everybody knows that experience

00:55:10.940 | from taking a really stressful test at some point,

00:55:13.000 | like in high school.

00:55:14.160 | And then they're going over the answers

00:55:15.600 | with the teacher in class later.

00:55:17.140 | And they're like, how did I miss that question?

00:55:18.860 | I know that.

00:55:20.440 | You're just in a different state.

00:55:21.760 | That's when you have too much stress.

00:55:24.280 | I think this day I actually was bordering on too much stress

00:55:27.920 | if not clearly in that threshold.

00:55:29.880 | But once you're sitting there for a little bit

00:55:34.040 | and you're asked the questions,

00:55:35.040 | you can kind of go into a routine

00:55:36.600 | of just wanting to talk about your work.

00:55:39.480 | - So what is the work, the job of a forensic psychologist

00:55:44.480 | in that context?

00:55:46.420 | - In the DEP HURD trial,

00:55:48.600 | I was serving as an expert witness

00:55:52.560 | based on a psychological evaluation of one of the parties.

00:55:57.020 | So forensic psychologists can serve the court

00:56:00.480 | or in legal matters in a number of ways.

00:56:02.700 | They can act as a confidential consultant

00:56:04.680 | for an attorney on a case,

00:56:07.600 | or they can even assist with jury selection.

00:56:10.840 | They might testify without doing an evaluation

00:56:13.420 | if they're just coming to testify

00:56:14.880 | about sort of a subject matter.

00:56:17.840 | And then they wouldn't be answering specific questions

00:56:20.480 | to either of the parties,

00:56:21.460 | but just talking more hypothetically about a field area.

00:56:25.640 | In this case, because I was ordered

00:56:28.820 | to conduct an evaluation,

00:56:31.140 | I evaluated one of the parties

00:56:32.940 | and then you provide a report to the court

00:56:36.220 | with your findings,

00:56:37.100 | and then you testify as to what your findings were.

00:56:41.900 | - But from my perspective, just watching you,

00:56:43.660 | you seem to have held it together really well.

00:56:46.100 | So what do you attribute that to?

00:56:48.420 | So you said like it calmed down

00:56:50.100 | after you were able to ask the questions.

00:56:52.000 | So to me, if I were just to put myself in your place,

00:56:55.520 | it seems like the internet and the world

00:57:00.260 | would be very nitpicky about individual words.

00:57:03.520 | You're speaking from a place of scientific rigor,

00:57:08.520 | and so you have to be very precise with your wording.

00:57:12.220 | - Precise.

00:57:13.060 | - I would feel like so much pressure

00:57:15.060 | about each single word I choose.

00:57:17.400 | Did you feel that pressure

00:57:18.440 | that you had to be extremely precise with the words?

00:57:21.800 | - Always.

00:57:23.100 | The pressure is so high going in to testifying.

00:57:26.340 | I think that's where I feel the most pressure is preparing,

00:57:29.680 | and literally the moment until I start having to answer.

00:57:34.220 | And then I don't even have the luxury

00:57:37.560 | of thinking about myself

00:57:39.180 | because it is so important that that answer be clarified

00:57:44.180 | and understandable to the court,

00:57:46.360 | that that becomes my focus.

00:57:48.020 | And that's the godsend,

00:57:49.500 | is that I can stop thinking about how scary it all is

00:57:53.500 | because I need to pay attention to explaining something.

00:57:57.260 | - So if it's okay, I would love to talk to you

00:57:59.300 | about the personality assessment test

00:58:02.100 | 'cause I think it's actually super fascinating.

00:58:04.700 | - The personality assessment inventory or the MMPI-2?

00:58:07.340 | You're probably referring to the MMPI-2,

00:58:09.020 | which is one I talked a lot about.

00:58:10.700 | - MMPI-2, yeah.

00:58:12.140 | So maybe can you explain the MMPI-2?

00:58:15.940 | Seems fascinating.

00:58:17.580 | It has its output, the results,

00:58:20.420 | has some basic scales, has code types.

00:58:23.100 | It's just reading through the different--

00:58:24.700 | - It's so complex.

00:58:25.540 | It's the thing of beauty.

00:58:26.540 | - Because the human mind is really complicated.

00:58:29.580 | Even depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder,

00:58:34.580 | all of these things are really complicated.

00:58:37.980 | There's like, many of them we don't understand well.

00:58:41.660 | There seems to be a huge amount of variance,

00:58:43.460 | and yet you have to be able to stitch together

00:58:47.020 | a bunch of characteristics that give you intuition

00:58:49.620 | about the unique aspects of each person.

00:58:53.860 | You want to be able to have tests

00:58:55.380 | that get you closer to identifying the peculiar flaws

00:59:00.380 | or beauties of a particular mind.

00:59:03.640 | So this seems to do a good job.

00:59:05.740 | Just reading through the different descriptions

00:59:08.020 | of the code types. - Can I borrow that

00:59:08.860 | until I testify? - No, I don't know.

00:59:09.680 | - That was the best description.

00:59:11.500 | - I don't know, I'm being poetic, I apologize.

00:59:13.420 | - No, that was a beautiful description.

00:59:15.340 | You have to be in part poetic about the human mind.

00:59:17.380 | It's not math, it's psychology.

00:59:19.660 | Okay, so what is the MMPI-2?

00:59:22.900 | Like, what are we talking about here?

00:59:25.540 | Like, it's a questionnaire?

00:59:28.440 | - Yes, that's a great start.

00:59:29.900 | So it is a questionnaire, yet 567 yes/no questions.

00:59:34.900 | I'm gonna tell you what's most beautiful about this test.

00:59:39.300 | So they used an empirical keying method to develop it.

00:59:42.800 | What that means is that they didn't have a bunch

00:59:46.240 | of psychologists get together and say,

00:59:48.120 | let's ask them, let's make sure that we identify people

00:59:52.640 | who have somatic complaints or physical complaints

00:59:55.360 | by asking them questions about like numbness in their hands,

00:59:59.360 | nothing like that.

01:00:00.320 | What they did instead was they threw,

01:00:02.880 | you know, like take 1,000 questions at a group of people

01:00:05.600 | who they know had a certain mental illness

01:00:07.440 | and a group of people who didn't have that mental illness.

01:00:10.080 | And then they looked for patterns in what the people

01:00:14.480 | with the mental illness endorsed as yes and no

01:00:18.740 | of those random questions.

01:00:21.080 | So it would be, for instance,

01:00:22.760 | there's a bronze light fixture right there.

01:00:24.920 | One of the questions out of the 1,000 might be,

01:00:27.480 | I like light fixtures that are bronze, true or false.

01:00:32.240 | And they looked for correlations in the way people

01:00:35.200 | would answer to these completely innocuous,

01:00:37.680 | just boring questions.

01:00:39.780 | So there was no real way that a test taker

01:00:43.480 | could foresee the point of answering.

01:00:46.700 | - And so because they can't foresee,

01:00:50.520 | it's very difficult to cheat to get to a conclusion

01:00:52.840 | that you're about to-- - Very difficult.

01:00:53.680 | And not only that, but you can imagine using that approach,

01:00:57.640 | you can then look for patterns for almost any type

01:01:02.300 | of response style, for any type of personality trait,

01:01:06.680 | any type of mental illness, you just get a comparison group.

01:01:10.260 | And then a group who's using that specific strategy

01:01:12.940 | or has that specific mental illness

01:01:15.020 | or has that personality trait,

01:01:16.740 | and you just look for patterns.

01:01:21.020 | - And there's a scale output of different kinds.

01:01:25.780 | - So I think-- - And there's code types.

01:01:27.420 | - Yep, so you've got validity scales,

01:01:30.640 | and those are just fascinating and often one

01:01:34.380 | of the most useful parts of this test in forensic context

01:01:37.560 | because they show you how a person is approaching the test,

01:01:42.440 | how they're answering questions about themselves.

01:01:45.160 | So for instance, you can see if they are tired,

01:01:49.160 | you can see if they're kind of responding randomly,

01:01:52.080 | you can see if they are in an unsophisticated manner

01:01:55.500 | trying to make themselves look perfect,

01:01:57.880 | but not very nuanced.

01:01:59.280 | You can see if they may be deceiving themselves

01:02:02.500 | and truly believe that they are perfect,

01:02:05.600 | whereas others don't see it that way.

01:02:07.540 | You can see if they're exaggerating,

01:02:09.160 | you can see if they're exaggerating

01:02:10.400 | because they're truly, it's a cry for help,

01:02:13.760 | they are in extreme distress,

01:02:15.140 | but they feel as though they need to really punctuate it

01:02:18.280 | to get people to notice.

01:02:19.680 | Or you can see if they're exaggerating in a way

01:02:21.520 | that is driven for a specific outcome or gain.

01:02:26.520 | It's just fascinating,

01:02:28.480 | and it's the most well-developed assessment we have

01:02:32.080 | for a person's approach

01:02:35.080 | to answering questions about themselves.

01:02:38.200 | - So it gives you the context of--

01:02:39.520 | - How honest they're being.

01:02:40.680 | - The state of the person as they're answering them.

01:02:43.360 | - Yeah, yeah, their honesty,

01:02:45.360 | how forthcoming they're being and how accurate they're being.

01:02:48.120 | - And then the result of the classification

01:02:50.580 | based on the test are these code types.

01:02:53.000 | - Right, well, so you have these clinical scales as well.

01:02:56.520 | You have 10 clinical scales that look for different

01:03:00.120 | kind of primary clinical pathology issues.

01:03:03.720 | This test doesn't tell you anything good about yourself.

01:03:06.240 | At best, it just tells you that you're not responding

01:03:08.800 | in a way that is dishonest

01:03:11.280 | and that you are not hugely problematic,

01:03:15.960 | but it's not looking for strength.

01:03:18.280 | So you have these 10 clinical scales

01:03:19.880 | that look for variations above the mean of the population

01:03:24.140 | in certain areas, anywhere from depressive symptoms,

01:03:28.940 | manic symptoms, physical complaints,

01:03:32.000 | anxiety, nervousness, aggression, social engagement,

01:03:36.200 | whole scope of human experience.

01:03:38.160 | And then there are much more nuanced scales from those,

01:03:42.600 | so little subscales.

01:03:44.520 | And then the real power though of the MMPI-2 is in,

01:03:48.440 | as you said, these code types.

01:03:50.040 | And these code types are additional patterns

01:03:53.440 | that have been detected

01:03:54.800 | that really can be more defining of a personality.

01:03:58.880 | So you look for peaks.

01:04:00.680 | There can be either two extreme peaks or three typically

01:04:04.640 | that make a code type.

01:04:05.920 | And those peaks are higher scores

01:04:09.520 | on these personality traits.

01:04:10.800 | And specific code types can give you a very nuanced picture

01:04:14.240 | of a person's general approach to life

01:04:16.680 | and their personal relationships, just their personality.

01:04:20.560 | - So you can build on top of those code types

01:04:23.640 | an understanding, yeah,

01:04:24.840 | how that person's going to deal

01:04:26.280 | with different kinds of situation.

01:04:27.600 | And then there's, by the way, a lot of code types.

01:04:29.560 | - There are a lot of code types.

01:04:30.400 | - I was looking at them.

01:04:31.220 | They're pretty interesting.

01:04:32.060 | - It is truly fascinating. - I want to take this test.

01:04:34.760 | I wanted to see which one I would--

01:04:36.400 | - I have given it to some people in my life.

01:04:38.320 | It's just phenomenal.

01:04:39.840 | - How hard is it on your side of the table to give the test?

01:04:42.880 | - Oh, it's easy.

01:04:44.080 | You just proctor it.

01:04:44.920 | You just make sure that somebody,

01:04:46.300 | there's no distraction, that they're well-rested,

01:04:48.640 | they are sitting there

01:04:49.600 | and they can just take it in front of you.

01:04:51.920 | - So I guess the question is

01:04:53.280 | because the questions are well-designed

01:04:54.940 | and that it's hard to mess with them.

01:04:57.400 | So you just give the--

01:04:58.240 | - It's very hard to beat it.

01:04:59.560 | You just hand it to them.

01:05:00.800 | - And it's yes and no.

01:05:03.100 | - It's yes and no.

01:05:04.040 | - Okay.

01:05:06.160 | - But I should also add to this

01:05:08.700 | that this test, as much as I love it,

01:05:11.060 | and it is the most researched

01:05:13.200 | and widely used personality assessment in the world,

01:05:16.080 | it is not in and of itself definitive.

01:05:20.280 | So you use it like you already have sort of a hypothesis

01:05:24.140 | and you use this for clarification.

01:05:27.080 | And it has a ton of value

01:05:29.600 | for showing somebody's response or their approach,

01:05:32.860 | how forthcoming they're being.

01:05:35.040 | But other than that,

01:05:35.960 | you really need to consider it as a piece of the puzzle.

01:05:39.040 | You had said stitch together earlier

01:05:40.800 | and that was just one of those points you made

01:05:42.580 | that was perfect for describing this.

01:05:45.500 | - There's probably no one perfect test, right,

01:05:48.840 | for personality?

01:05:50.000 | - No.

01:05:50.840 | - I wonder, especially with advancements of AI,

01:05:56.880 | there could be more and more sophisticated ways

01:06:00.800 | of measuring, of collecting data about your behavior.

01:06:04.120 | - Absolutely, there could be.

01:06:04.960 | - And being able to measure some kind of more productive,

01:06:07.720 | especially not in a forensic context,

01:06:10.680 | but more in trying to figure out

01:06:13.800 | how to improve your lifestyle,

01:06:15.280 | improve your relationships, all that kind of stuff.

01:06:17.800 | So the results of the test with Amber Heard,

01:06:22.860 | if you can speak to the public stuff,

01:06:25.940 | you said that the results of Ms. Heard's evaluation

01:06:31.900 | supported two diagnoses, borderline personality disorder

01:06:35.480 | and histrionic personality disorder.

01:06:38.780 | Can you speak to each one of those?

01:06:42.180 | What are they?

01:06:43.260 | What are the basic characteristics

01:06:44.620 | of borderline personality disorder?

01:06:46.660 | - Sure, well, so right now, the DSM-5,

01:06:50.900 | which is sort of the Bible for mental disorders,

01:06:53.860 | it's what we go to our diagnostic manual,

01:06:56.620 | it classifies personality disorders according to clusters.

01:07:00.360 | And cluster B is one that involves

01:07:04.340 | the emotionally erratic, interpersonally erratic

01:07:07.780 | emotional disorders.

01:07:09.740 | And those include histrionic personality disorder,

01:07:12.620 | borderline personality disorder,

01:07:14.980 | narcissistic personality disorder,

01:07:17.300 | and antisocial personality disorder.

01:07:20.240 | Eventually, there's been some research on this

01:07:23.060 | and a lot of support for us eventually moving

01:07:25.860 | into a more spectrum type approach

01:07:28.980 | to considering personality disorders

01:07:30.900 | where you'd essentially be looking at dysfunction

01:07:34.840 | in different domains of somebody's functioning

01:07:37.180 | that has persisted over time.

01:07:39.740 | And again, the really important part is

01:07:42.140 | it seems to be a stable trait, part of their personality,

01:07:46.260 | that it's in their interpersonal relationships,

01:07:49.220 | it's in how they handle their own life,

01:07:51.600 | their own functioning, their mood,

01:07:53.240 | and it's not just situation-based,

01:07:55.140 | it seems to be all areas.

01:07:56.580 | I don't love the title histrionic personality disorder.

01:08:02.360 | I think its history is, it's pretty controversial

01:08:07.260 | and there's some misogyny in it.

01:08:09.860 | But that all being said, as a servant to the court

01:08:13.820 | and somebody who is there to just provide the science

01:08:17.040 | as it exists today, my job is to relay,

01:08:20.600 | and in this specific case, I was ordered

01:08:22.240 | to provide my diagnostic impressions, a diagnosis,

01:08:26.280 | and I don't get to decide which diagnosis,

01:08:29.880 | whether I like a certain diagnosis or not.

01:08:32.360 | Ultimately, if the criteria are met,

01:08:35.180 | that diagnosis is given.

01:08:36.960 | So as we have it right now

01:08:39.120 | with the current personality disorder categories,

01:08:41.680 | histrionic personality disorder

01:08:43.120 | is probably the most controversial.

01:08:44.600 | Some people believe that it is

01:08:47.280 | narcissistic personality disorder lite,

01:08:50.120 | so sort of a less obvious,

01:08:53.880 | a less malicious version

01:08:56.320 | of narcissistic personality disorder.

01:08:58.520 | And I think that will probably get sussed out

01:09:02.840 | if we do move to a more spectrum-based approach

01:09:05.200 | 'cause then you would be describing

01:09:06.760 | sort of a personality disorder

01:09:08.160 | and then you would add the traits to it.

01:09:10.200 | So with issues in interpersonal functioning

01:09:13.800 | and et cetera, so you could be a little bit more specific

01:09:18.080 | rather than having to just put somebody in a category.

01:09:20.600 | - So that's where things are moving, you're saying?

01:09:22.840 | - That's where things are moving.

01:09:24.440 | - From a clusters-based view of NPD,

01:09:26.840 | antisocial personality disorder.

01:09:29.240 | - To more of a spectrum with personality dysfunction,

01:09:32.360 | then you list the traits that are there.

01:09:35.360 | And I think that'll be more accurate,

01:09:37.520 | especially there's so much overlap

01:09:39.480 | between these personality disorders right now,

01:09:41.360 | especially cluster B, it is not uncommon for people

01:09:44.240 | to have two or three personality disorders

01:09:47.040 | to meet criteria for two or three at the same time.

01:09:50.760 | So speaking about borderline personality disorder

01:09:53.680 | and histrionic personality disorder,

01:09:55.600 | borderline personality disorder can best be thought of

01:09:59.520 | as a disorder of instability and impulsiveness,

01:10:03.920 | emotional instability, instability in a person's

01:10:07.240 | self-identity, sense of self,

01:10:10.000 | instability in a person's relationships,

01:10:12.640 | and then underlying all of this

01:10:14.720 | is an intense fear of abandonment.

01:10:17.440 | Histrionic personality disorder is more of a disorder

01:10:22.000 | of emotionality, dramatics, and attention-seeking.

01:10:26.160 | This histrionic disorder typically is known

01:10:32.240 | for the dramatics and people who are observing

01:10:35.560 | or interacting with somebody with this disorder

01:10:37.280 | may even feel themselves almost kind of

01:10:39.760 | wanting to turn away.

01:10:41.200 | There's a sense of play acting as the person is speaking

01:10:44.360 | or engaging with you.

01:10:45.520 | Something just feels a little bit disingenuous.

01:10:49.800 | And a lot of attention-seeking,

01:10:52.520 | similar to borderline personality disorder,

01:10:54.360 | you might see with histrionic personality disorder,

01:10:57.280 | attempts to manipulate.

01:10:58.760 | However, the motivation with histrionic personality disorder

01:11:01.680 | is that attention, whereas with borderline

01:11:04.000 | personality disorder, the underlying motivation

01:11:06.160 | for almost everything is to avoid abandonment.

01:11:08.920 | So you'll see frantic attempts to avoid abandonment,

01:11:12.960 | frantic attempts to keep people close,

01:11:15.720 | and those frantic attempts can be really harmful

01:11:18.040 | to the person and to others.

01:11:20.520 | - To the person themselves.

01:11:21.880 | So the fear of abandonment can result

01:11:27.440 | in the very thing you're afraid of.

01:11:28.960 | - Right.

01:11:29.800 | There has been some research also to suggest

01:11:34.360 | that borderline personality disorder

01:11:37.200 | has different types as well.

01:11:39.600 | And I think this is really important

01:11:43.320 | because in my own work, I have encountered many people

01:11:46.360 | with borderline personality disorder in my own life.

01:11:48.960 | And there are different types.

01:11:53.720 | I'm thinking specifically of a girl I really love

01:11:56.880 | who I've worked with for years,

01:11:58.200 | who is so self-aware about this and endearing.

01:12:04.080 | She owns her shit.

01:12:06.440 | I can forgive almost anything

01:12:08.200 | if somebody just owns their shit.

01:12:10.320 | She might lose her temper, she might lash out,

01:12:16.440 | she can be erratic, but she will come back and apologize,

01:12:21.000 | own it, and accept full responsibility.

01:12:23.200 | And not only that, but identify it and make changes.

01:12:27.560 | She doesn't want to be harmful.

01:12:29.760 | I adore that about her.

01:12:30.920 | I think it's an admirable quality

01:12:32.760 | that more of us could have.

01:12:34.640 | That's very different than, when you think about it,

01:12:39.120 | there are nine different symptoms

01:12:41.200 | and you only need five to meet criteria.

01:12:43.120 | So depending on which symptoms you have,

01:12:45.600 | you might be far more calculated, conniving, manipulative,

01:12:50.400 | or you may just be more of the impulsive,

01:12:52.760 | kind of messy, emotionally erratic type.

01:12:55.080 | And so there's some new research also coming out

01:12:57.480 | that's even suggested that among women,

01:13:01.200 | those that score higher in some of these

01:13:03.560 | more calculated traits of the disorder,

01:13:06.280 | may actually be, it may be a certain presentation

01:13:09.840 | of female psychopathy.

01:13:11.480 | Yeah.

01:13:14.160 | - Are some of these personality disorders,

01:13:16.760 | again, probably impossible question to answer,

01:13:18.680 | but how much of it is nature, how much of it is nurture?

01:13:23.120 | Or how much of it is in the genetics

01:13:25.480 | and you just can't do much with?

01:13:27.120 | Maybe another question, a different way to ask that

01:13:31.160 | is how much can you help that?

01:13:33.600 | How much can you become better?

01:13:36.600 | - That is a tough question.

01:13:37.760 | So there's been a ton of change

01:13:40.760 | in the way we've thought about the etiology

01:13:43.040 | of these personality disorders,

01:13:45.360 | specific to borderline personality disorder.

01:13:47.920 | I think in general, the view is that most people believe

01:13:52.760 | that it was associated with neglect or trauma in childhood.

01:13:57.400 | While there is a correlation there,

01:13:59.320 | there's a correlation between that

01:14:00.880 | and many mental health issues,

01:14:02.760 | not just borderline personality disorder.

01:14:05.160 | We also, there is evidence to support a genetic basis

01:14:09.000 | for this personality disorder.

01:14:10.720 | And there are people who have borderline personality disorder

01:14:14.120 | that report no childhood trauma or difficulty.

01:14:18.360 | And I have seen, sometimes things just happen.

01:14:23.120 | So I think it's a mix.

01:14:25.640 | I think we need to think of it as biopsychosocial,

01:14:28.120 | which is generally the answer to most things

01:14:30.320 | when you're talking about

01:14:31.240 | how a mental health issue comes to be.

01:14:33.720 | I certainly think that in most cases,

01:14:38.880 | and here's just me speaking personally again,

01:14:41.960 | I think in my own work, in most cases,

01:14:44.480 | what I see is that somebody may have

01:14:47.800 | some sort of predisposition.

01:14:49.800 | Then they go through certain life events

01:14:51.880 | and learn patterns of behaving that may serve them well

01:14:56.680 | as a child in a dysfunctional situation,

01:14:58.640 | but end up being very problematic later on.

01:15:01.840 | Or they just have enough hardship that that gene,

01:15:04.440 | whatever it was, lying dormant,

01:15:06.320 | that little borderline personality disorder gene

01:15:08.840 | expresses itself.

01:15:09.880 | And you'll see that with things like schizophrenia,

01:15:12.280 | depression, anxiety disorders.

01:15:14.400 | There tend to be certain ages

01:15:15.920 | where you'll just see that expression happen.

01:15:18.840 | - All right, for the record, it got cold in here,

01:15:23.440 | so we upgraded with a blanket.

01:15:25.840 | (both laughing)

01:15:28.080 | You look cozy.

01:15:28.920 | Just as a question for me, just observing the trial,

01:15:33.360 | it was interesting that, first of all,

01:15:37.440 | it was a really raw and honest exploration

01:15:41.360 | of an intimate relationship between two people.

01:15:45.200 | It was interesting to watch.

01:15:46.560 | I suppose I haven't watched that kind of thing.

01:15:49.560 | It made me think about what makes for a good relationship.

01:15:52.760 | All the many things we've already talked about

01:15:55.600 | in this conversation, it was useful for that.

01:16:00.040 | But also there was raw recordings of two humans' interaction.

01:16:05.040 | What did you think about that, that there's recordings?

01:16:08.080 | It's kind of interesting.

01:16:08.920 | - The act of recording your partner?

01:16:10.560 | - Yeah, and not the ethics of that or so on,

01:16:14.080 | but the fact that you have this data.

01:16:15.840 | It made me wonder, if I recorded myself, how would I sound?

01:16:20.080 | Like in my private-- - Well, you do record yourself.

01:16:21.640 | - No, but here with microphones,

01:16:23.040 | but when you're in private,

01:16:25.080 | you wonder, like I had a bit of a fight

01:16:30.080 | with a friend last week,

01:16:33.280 | and I wondered which one of us was the asshole.

01:16:38.040 | I would love to hear the recording,

01:16:40.040 | 'cause we were a little bit,

01:16:41.600 | I think we were a little bit rude to each other,

01:16:43.640 | and I wonder how it went wrong.

01:16:45.720 | - I love that you asked yourself that question.

01:16:47.960 | That's so useful.

01:16:49.000 | - We made up the next day,

01:16:50.120 | and I think we both agreed to not ever talk about it.

01:16:53.080 | (both laughing)

01:16:54.200 | - But I want the data. - Just bury it deep.

01:16:56.120 | You know, I record my couple sessions,

01:16:58.640 | and one of the primary purposes of that

01:17:01.360 | is so that if they start to get nasty with each other

01:17:05.840 | in the session, I can stop it,

01:17:08.720 | and I can say, "What was that?"

01:17:11.080 | And most of the time, what you're describing is so useful

01:17:15.000 | because we don't see ourselves,

01:17:16.520 | we have no idea that we just came off as critical.

01:17:19.320 | We think we're being completely reasonable and thoughtful.

01:17:23.120 | Whenever somebody is sort of retelling an argument

01:17:26.440 | they got, and they said, "And then, you know,

01:17:28.080 | "I was just caring and just asked.

01:17:30.300 | "I mean, why, is there a reason you didn't?"

01:17:32.920 | You know, something like that.

01:17:34.240 | If they can actually see themselves,

01:17:35.760 | they realize, no, their jaw was clenched,

01:17:38.000 | their voice was raised, they actually called a name.

01:17:41.320 | Sometimes they're shocked.

01:17:42.720 | - So just a quick, just to linger on it,

01:17:46.480 | you labeled Amber Heard as a 3/6 code type,

01:17:52.600 | going back to our discussion,

01:17:54.400 | which can mean that, quote,

01:17:55.520 | "She's heavily concerned with image,

01:17:57.000 | "prone to treating others with cruelty,

01:17:58.780 | "unable to admit responsibility for wrongdoing,

01:18:01.780 | "and prone to externalizing blame."

01:18:05.080 | And then I also went into the MMPI-2 list.

01:18:10.080 | 3/6 includes anxiety, tension, rigidity, fear of criticism,

01:18:15.600 | suppressed hostility, merging impassive

01:18:18.400 | or episodic aggression, suspiciousness,

01:18:22.360 | egocentricity, what else, projection.

01:18:25.760 | What can you say about that code

01:18:27.800 | that is not captured in the different personality disorders?

01:18:30.800 | What are we supposed to do that

01:18:33.440 | from a forensic psychology perspective?

01:18:35.440 | And what are we supposed to do that in general,

01:18:38.480 | forget the 3/6, in general, these kinds of code types

01:18:41.600 | in that context, in the context of a trial?

01:18:43.880 | - If I'm understanding you correctly,

01:18:45.280 | it's sort of what's the point of these code types?

01:18:47.600 | - Yeah, thank you for asking the question better.

01:18:50.100 | (both laughing)

01:18:52.120 | I don't know what I'm doing.

01:18:54.280 | I just actually honestly really find MMPI-2 fascinating.

01:18:57.840 | - I love that you do.

01:18:59.280 | I love that you get it, because I just,

01:19:01.880 | to me, it's almost unbelievable that humans created it,

01:19:06.880 | but I think that goes back to that empirical key method

01:19:10.080 | of creating something that enabled it

01:19:12.880 | to be as robust as it is,

01:19:14.400 | and something that is very difficult to beat,

01:19:17.280 | if not impossible.

01:19:18.540 | But the code types really,

01:19:22.160 | so it depends on, in any forensic case,

01:19:25.960 | what really matters is the legal, psycho-legal questions.

01:19:29.720 | So what is the legal question?

01:19:31.280 | And then what is the psychologist's responsibility

01:19:34.800 | in assisting with whatever question they're being asked?

01:19:37.040 | And there's some questions we can't answer,

01:19:38.800 | some that we can.

01:19:39.900 | You don't always need to provide a diagnosis

01:19:43.380 | when you're asked to provide a report.

01:19:45.860 | It depends on the jurisdiction,

01:19:47.280 | it depends on the statute.

01:19:48.320 | Some jurisdictions actually require a diagnosis.

01:19:51.000 | In this case, I was asked to provide a diagnosis.

01:19:53.920 | So when I'm considering a diagnosis,

01:19:56.720 | you're integrating multiple different sources

01:19:59.720 | of information.

01:20:00.560 | You're integrating an examinee's self-report,

01:20:03.800 | you are adding collateral data.

01:20:06.740 | Usually, I wasn't able to obtain collateral interviews

01:20:10.480 | in this case, and that was a decision of the court.

01:20:13.380 | They said no collateral interviews.

01:20:16.380 | But typically, that would be something that you would add.

01:20:19.300 | You're looking at records, ideally,

01:20:21.260 | from birth up until the date

01:20:23.540 | that the alleged injury occurred.

01:20:26.260 | And I'm speaking now specifically

01:20:27.760 | to a personal injury evaluation

01:20:29.460 | or something where somebody is claiming

01:20:31.280 | that they were harmed psychologically.

01:20:34.020 | But you want as many records as possible

01:20:35.980 | to show how a person functioned before that event occurred

01:20:39.940 | and how they functioned after.

01:20:41.800 | And you want it to show financial functioning,

01:20:44.300 | physical functioning, academic functioning.

01:20:46.900 | Basically, where is there evidence

01:20:48.900 | that something in their life changed?

01:20:51.900 | Where is there evidence that harm occurred

01:20:53.980 | other than from what they're telling you?

01:20:56.580 | And in addition to all of those records

01:21:00.780 | that you're reviewing, in addition to their self-report,

01:21:03.480 | then you're also going to give some of these tests

01:21:05.940 | like the MMPI.

01:21:07.300 | So the code types are really that strength of the MMPI-2.

01:21:12.300 | It gives you really nuanced information

01:21:14.160 | about a person's personality.

01:21:15.840 | Now, again, you're not gonna use MMPI-2

01:21:18.480 | or any other test by itself to diagnose someone

01:21:22.700 | or decide that the person is telling the truth,

01:21:25.680 | not telling the truth.

01:21:26.520 | It is just another piece of data.

01:21:28.800 | And when it's working the way it's supposed to,

01:21:32.160 | it lines up really nicely

01:21:34.540 | with all of the other data you're getting,

01:21:36.360 | including what you've observed from the person

01:21:38.800 | during your interview with them,

01:21:40.240 | the information they're giving you,

01:21:41.800 | or inconsistencies with the information they're giving you,

01:21:44.880 | the consistency or inconsistency

01:21:47.040 | of their self-report from the records,

01:21:49.680 | what the records themselves say, et cetera, et cetera.

01:21:52.640 | - So it's adding, it's helping you clarify

01:21:54.720 | and clarify and clarify the picture you have of the person.

01:21:56.720 | - Yep, just dialing it down more and more.

01:21:59.200 | You're just making sure that it is as accurate as possible.

01:22:02.760 | - Okay, so given how huge this trial was,

01:22:05.280 | given how eloquent you are,

01:22:08.080 | I know you don't think of it that way,

01:22:09.600 | but from a public perspective,

01:22:11.840 | you are like the star because of how well you did.

01:22:15.080 | - That's insane.

01:22:15.920 | I'm pretty sure Camille's the star.

01:22:20.280 | - Camille is also incredible.

01:22:21.400 | I've gotten a chance to interact with her.

01:22:23.340 | She's somebody that really inspires me

01:22:28.340 | by how good she is at her job,

01:22:30.160 | how much she loves her job,

01:22:31.560 | and how much the fame, the money, whatever,

01:22:34.580 | has not affected the basic core integrity

01:22:37.680 | of who she is as a human being.

01:22:40.040 | So she's also incredible.

01:22:42.920 | Okay, what's the takeaway for you personally from the trial?

01:22:47.920 | How has it made you a better person?

01:22:50.720 | How has it changed or solidified who you are

01:22:55.280 | as a psychologist, as a forensic psychologist,

01:22:58.480 | clinical psychologist, and so on?

01:23:01.740 | - Wow.

01:23:02.580 | A lot happened in my life around that trial,

01:23:06.860 | leading up to the trial, after the trial.

01:23:09.180 | So let's tackle forensic psychologists first.

01:23:13.580 | - Sure. - Okay.

01:23:14.820 | So in terms of forensic psychology,

01:23:18.100 | I am grateful to that trial

01:23:19.700 | for really strengthening my abilities.

01:23:22.200 | The stakes were so high that I took,

01:23:26.620 | I was retained about two years prior to the trial.

01:23:30.300 | So I really delved deep into the academic side

01:23:35.300 | of forensic psychology and making sure

01:23:38.100 | that I was adhering as closely as possible

01:23:42.100 | to standard practices, best practice recommendations

01:23:45.580 | for this specific type of an examination.

01:23:48.760 | It was intellectually awesome and challenging.

01:23:51.700 | I felt like my brain was on fire for a full year

01:23:55.100 | leading up to the trial,

01:23:56.440 | and that can be really, really fun.

01:23:58.620 | It was just challenging, but I am really proud

01:24:01.100 | of the work I did.

01:24:02.100 | I think the stakes were really high.

01:24:04.180 | It's serious work.

01:24:05.980 | It's important that it's done well and accurately,

01:24:09.940 | and I felt really good about it.

01:24:12.700 | - So have some of those lessons carried through

01:24:14.620 | to your practice now, to both research

01:24:17.140 | and some of the things you're doing

01:24:19.980 | in terms of helping couples?

01:24:21.440 | - No, I mean, my practice hasn't changed that much.

01:24:28.420 | This was more just something that was more,

01:24:32.540 | it demanded so much more of my time

01:24:34.340 | than my typical forensic work does.

01:24:36.540 | And personal injury cases,

01:24:37.860 | or in cases where there is an allegation of trauma

01:24:40.660 | or psychological harm, tend to be super labor-intensive.

01:24:44.300 | This, given the magnitude and how long it had been going on

01:24:48.340 | in the back and forth, required a ton of work

01:24:51.200 | before the trial as well.

01:24:52.480 | So it pulled me away from the practice.

01:24:54.620 | I think it's been nice to go back a bit.

01:24:58.260 | Okay, so now personally, I've learned some things.

01:25:01.580 | I've learned that I need to slow down a little bit.

01:25:04.560 | - So this took a lot from you.

01:25:07.380 | - It took a lot, but it was really the culmination.

01:25:10.180 | I feel like there are these hoops we jump through

01:25:13.100 | again and again, academic challenges

01:25:15.940 | that we continue to meet, and then there's a next one

01:25:20.020 | and a next one and a next one.

01:25:21.500 | And in the beginning, when you're getting into college

01:25:25.060 | or applying to grad schools,

01:25:27.540 | you don't really realize this is going to be

01:25:29.380 | a never-ending thing, especially if I continue

01:25:31.820 | with research or forensic work.

01:25:33.780 | I love it because it is so academic.

01:25:35.900 | You're writing these 75-page reports with citations,

01:25:40.060 | and you have to be accurate.

01:25:42.740 | It feels like I'm doing giant board exams

01:25:46.240 | again and again and again.

01:25:48.120 | It never ends, but that feeling,

01:25:52.900 | I think you and I were talking about

01:25:54.340 | how it's fun to doubt yourself

01:25:56.100 | because it pushes you to do better work.

01:25:58.720 | But so if you keep having high stakes,

01:26:02.500 | you're going to work all the time,

01:26:04.540 | work yourself into the ground, constantly be thinking

01:26:07.380 | about, oh, this question, I'm not sure

01:26:09.140 | if I fully know the answer and all the research behind that,

01:26:11.860 | so I should go there.

01:26:13.700 | And again, super fun,

01:26:16.540 | but I don't just do forensic psychology all day.

01:26:20.820 | I also own a clinic.

01:26:24.460 | I provide therapy.

01:26:26.140 | I've been providing therapy for 15 years.

01:26:28.500 | So what happens is you have clients

01:26:30.740 | who maybe you've stopped seeing,

01:26:32.580 | but when they have a crisis in their lives,

01:26:34.460 | they reach out to you again, even if it's seven years later.

01:26:37.480 | So you've accumulated hundreds of clients

01:26:40.820 | who at any given time are going to reach out

01:26:43.500 | when they're in crisis, whether or not

01:26:46.160 | you're working on a federal case or in Virginia for this,

01:26:49.660 | and that is never going to be something easy to grapple with

01:26:54.460 | because I feel that I am letting somebody down.

01:26:57.260 | I know I am because these are people I genuinely care about

01:27:00.700 | and they care about me and they trust me,

01:27:03.180 | and I wanna be able to be there for them.

01:27:05.620 | I know that it's disappointing if I can't be,

01:27:08.140 | and it's also very difficult to separate out

01:27:12.300 | the professional therapy relationship from loving someone

01:27:16.460 | who you've seen through some of the most difficult parts

01:27:19.380 | of their lives.

01:27:20.540 | And I can explain that to people all day long,

01:27:23.340 | but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be easy

01:27:26.300 | for someone to accept when I can't talk to them

01:27:29.460 | and they just found out their husband

01:27:31.160 | was leading a double life or their sister just died,

01:27:35.120 | and I can't even get on a call

01:27:36.820 | because I'm getting maybe 15 messages like that a day

01:27:40.760 | and have to testify and have to run my practice.

01:27:46.420 | So I think that was why I need to slow down.

01:27:49.340 | This case, I was doing all of that,

01:27:52.160 | and then the academic load or the work involved

01:27:57.260 | was just tremendous.

01:27:58.620 | And some stuff happened, like my dad,

01:28:01.960 | he started having his cognitive decline.

01:28:03.900 | I got a medical diagnosis that is stress-induced.

01:28:06.820 | I really thought I was getting away with it.

01:28:09.660 | I really believed that people who talk a lot about self-care

01:28:13.540 | were kind of full of shit

01:28:15.620 | and just didn't know how to push themselves.

01:28:17.900 | I still believe in pushing ourselves,

01:28:20.420 | but I think I kind of traversed into an area

01:28:25.420 | without realizing it where I was no longer pushing myself

01:28:28.980 | to challenge myself or see what I was capable of.

01:28:31.580 | I was almost pushing myself like as a necessity

01:28:34.820 | 'cause I didn't know what else to do anymore,

01:28:37.580 | just an obligation.

01:28:38.780 | It wasn't even, yeah, I wasn't pushing myself

01:28:42.260 | to do, the Deb Hurd case reminded me of that feeling

01:28:46.020 | of pushing myself to do something

01:28:47.300 | I wasn't sure I was capable of

01:28:49.060 | and overcoming that challenge.

01:28:50.580 | That was rewarding.

01:28:52.440 | But when you're piling that on with running a business

01:28:55.200 | and all these other things

01:28:56.380 | and trying to be perfect at all of them,

01:28:59.120 | that just starts to become like a feeling of necessity,

01:29:02.480 | and it's not healthy.

01:29:04.180 | - That said, you somehow managed to hold it all together,

01:29:08.820 | to put forward a masterful performance.

01:29:11.040 | And like you said, still take care of all these clients

01:29:14.300 | 'cause you're the most important person in their lives

01:29:16.520 | for many of them.

01:29:17.420 | Is there a secret to that?

01:29:21.820 | Was there any hacks?

01:29:23.180 | Is there a--

01:29:24.980 | - I don't sleep a lot.

01:29:25.980 | I don't get a, no, and honestly, it's not,

01:29:29.940 | it's a work in progress, right?

01:29:34.500 | I don't have an answer for,

01:29:36.480 | I wouldn't want my life to be any other way.

01:29:40.720 | I wouldn't have had the opportunity to work on this case

01:29:43.720 | if I hadn't established my practice and had outreach.

01:29:46.960 | So I can't figure out which piece you take it out

01:29:52.620 | without it all crumbling,

01:29:54.020 | but I would love to have a little more downtime.

01:29:56.400 | - So it all kind of works together

01:29:58.000 | and there's passion is the fuel that's behind all of it.

01:30:03.000 | That's probably the reason

01:30:04.600 | you haven't lost your mind quite yet.

01:30:06.800 | - Maybe, yeah, maybe.

01:30:09.500 | Unless, I mean, it depends who you ask.

01:30:11.580 | - What about the stress of just being in the public eye?

01:30:16.960 | Has that been difficult for you?

01:30:19.000 | - That's a lovely question.

01:30:20.040 | Thank you for asking it 'cause I'm,

01:30:21.840 | it is nice to talk to you about this

01:30:24.720 | 'cause I feel like you probably understand it a little bit.

01:30:27.640 | That was something I was absolutely unprepared for.

01:30:32.320 | Like I said, I had no idea how many people were watching

01:30:34.680 | when I testified.

01:30:37.360 | I had no idea and I got off the stand,

01:30:40.780 | I kind of staggered to the back room

01:30:43.820 | and truly thought about lying down on the floor

01:30:46.740 | 'cause I was so exhausted.

01:30:49.660 | And I'd been up studying all my stuff,

01:30:52.820 | terrified that I was gonna forget some statistic

01:30:55.620 | about the MMPI-2.

01:30:57.260 | - It's gonna be so great.

01:30:58.340 | It's great for me, it's gonna be great for people

01:31:00.020 | to hear this, that you're human.

01:31:02.020 | You're two flaws.

01:31:03.540 | (Bridget laughing)

01:31:05.740 | That's extremely stressful for many, many hours.

01:31:08.560 | I wondered how you could sit there for so many hours

01:31:11.320 | and stay so focused and listen so well.

01:31:13.920 | It's so difficult.

01:31:14.840 | - Well, I mean, I could talk about that too.

01:31:16.680 | The moment I came to, almost like came back to my body

01:31:19.680 | and realized where I was and just wanted it to stop

01:31:21.880 | and felt like I was burning alive.

01:31:23.760 | I just was thinking, I don't wanna do this anymore.

01:31:26.800 | I don't wanna do this anymore.

01:31:28.040 | Is this gonna stop?

01:31:29.000 | And then another question came

01:31:30.200 | and I just had to get back to it.

01:31:32.640 | But, so after I testified,

01:31:35.260 | the first time I went in that back room,

01:31:37.220 | I might've laid down on the ground.

01:31:38.880 | It's kind of a blur.

01:31:39.940 | I mean, I might have.

01:31:41.240 | I do remember that Wayne Dennison,

01:31:43.660 | one of the senior managing partners at Brown Rudnick,

01:31:46.040 | who is a phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant.

01:31:49.160 | I will be indebted to him for life because I trusted him.

01:31:53.540 | I trusted him and that made all the difference

01:31:55.460 | in probably how I testified.

01:31:57.140 | But he came in the back and he was looking at his phone

01:31:59.900 | and he said, "You're on the cover of Time,"

01:32:02.220 | something on Apple News.

01:32:04.600 | And I thought, I mean, I really,

01:32:06.840 | I thought he was messing with me.

01:32:09.140 | I thought it was his joke way of saying, "I did great."

01:32:12.900 | - You've worked with veterans.

01:32:15.580 | What is PTSD in that context?

01:32:19.660 | What's the landscape of psychological suffering

01:32:22.620 | that veteran soldiers go through?

01:32:25.720 | (sighs)

01:32:27.720 | - Well, if we're talking about combat exposure,

01:32:35.760 | you're seeing things you're not meant to see.

01:32:40.440 | You're seeing the worst of humanity,

01:32:42.560 | people harming other people.

01:32:43.700 | It's not natural for others to intend to harm us.

01:32:48.700 | It's not natural for us to harm others.

01:32:51.940 | And this dehumanization can occur

01:32:55.280 | that's so troubling and disturbing

01:32:57.240 | that people have a hard time living with it later,

01:32:59.680 | or they just feel this ongoing anger.

01:33:04.080 | It depends.

01:33:08.000 | It depends on the trauma they're exposed to.

01:33:09.520 | It depends on whether their convoy was ambushed

01:33:14.460 | by weapons that were purchased from money

01:33:16.800 | that was given to this village from the US government.

01:33:20.800 | It depends on whether they did something

01:33:25.800 | that they have a hard time reconciling outside of war

01:33:29.400 | now that they're back home in civilization.

01:33:31.840 | Depends on whether they lost a lot of their comrades

01:33:36.780 | and feel that guilt of being a survivor.

01:33:39.080 | And again, not everybody develops PTSD.

01:33:42.360 | It really, it's a mental disorder.

01:33:44.000 | It's serious.

01:33:45.500 | We talk so much about trauma

01:33:47.240 | and PTSD gets thrown around lightly

01:33:50.120 | when actually it's very difficult

01:33:52.040 | to meet the full criteria for that diagnosis.

01:33:55.320 | And many people experience severe trauma in their lives

01:33:59.080 | and only about 14% are likely to actually develop PTSD.

01:34:03.520 | It's an exception, not the norm.

01:34:06.120 | Traumatic stress is absolutely normal

01:34:08.520 | after something traumatic happens.

01:34:11.080 | You'll likely have nightmares.

01:34:12.480 | You'll likely have anxiety.

01:34:13.640 | You'll feel depressed because you're a human being

01:34:16.560 | and something abnormal happened.

01:34:18.480 | But PTSD is a longer standing condition

01:34:23.480 | that is significantly impairing in a person's life.

01:34:28.420 | And I think we've lost that

01:34:30.160 | in some of the sort of narrative in society.

01:34:32.320 | It just, everybody has PTSD.

01:34:35.120 | But no, you can have traumatic stress.

01:34:37.000 | You can be distressed.

01:34:38.160 | You can be affected by trauma

01:34:39.560 | and not have that particular diagnosis.

01:34:42.000 | PTSD significantly impairs people's lives.

01:34:47.240 | - How do veterans, how do soldiers who suffer from PTSD

01:34:50.320 | or are close to that kind of diagnosis begin to heal?

01:34:54.200 | What's the path for healing?

01:34:56.560 | - Well, I will hand it to the military

01:34:58.720 | because I think in terms of working

01:35:00.800 | with their active duty service members,

01:35:02.480 | they really invest heavily in mental health.

01:35:05.700 | The US Department of Defense was one of the first

01:35:09.320 | to bring animal assisted therapy

01:35:12.160 | into any type of treatment in the early 1900s

01:35:15.080 | with bringing farming into certain hospitals

01:35:19.260 | and letting veterans help with the farms

01:35:21.600 | and brush the horses, which is so advanced

01:35:25.860 | because now we have all this research

01:35:27.600 | on animal assisted therapy and how beneficial it is.

01:35:31.560 | And just looking in the eyes of a dog

01:35:33.040 | can increase your pain threshold

01:35:34.640 | and speed healing after a cardiac arrest,

01:35:38.060 | help people with dementia to ambulate more freely.

01:35:40.660 | It's incredible stuff, simple.

01:35:43.160 | And the military was ahead of the game on that.

01:35:45.200 | And I don't think that's changed.

01:35:46.500 | I did my training at a military hospital in Hawaii,

01:35:50.460 | Tripler Army Medical Center.

01:35:51.960 | It was phenomenal training.

01:35:54.660 | And our psych department,

01:35:57.440 | there was so much interesting research going on.

01:36:00.080 | And it was so integrated.

01:36:02.740 | So you might not imagine that the military

01:36:06.400 | would be doing this, but we had an acupuncture department.

01:36:09.540 | We had a chiropractic department.

01:36:12.200 | We had a yoga section.

01:36:14.040 | We were doing yoga sessions there.

01:36:16.040 | I mean, anything that has evidence to support its efficacy

01:36:21.940 | was being utilized.

01:36:23.240 | And I think that's pretty cool about our government.

01:36:26.840 | They have a lot of funding,

01:36:27.880 | so I'm glad they're using it on that.

01:36:30.480 | The real challenge I think comes with the large scale need

01:36:34.720 | of the veteran population.

01:36:36.160 | And they slipped through the cracks.

01:36:39.800 | I know that the DOD had a campaign going

01:36:42.140 | where they were doing outreach to anybody who served,

01:36:44.240 | for instance, in the Vietnam War.

01:36:46.680 | The problem is they were trying to get

01:36:49.400 | all of these people assessed for PTSD, and it was great.

01:36:52.280 | Like they were getting phone calls, mail.

01:36:54.660 | It was sort of saying, "Hey, we know that you serve.

01:36:57.120 | Come on in, or let's schedule you an exam

01:36:59.720 | with a psychologist and just see if you're owed benefits."

01:37:03.080 | The idea of it's great.

01:37:04.520 | The problem is that they outsource

01:37:06.920 | to this third-party company.

01:37:08.640 | They're paying really low rates

01:37:10.700 | for a one-hour meeting with a vet.

01:37:13.900 | And you don't need to be specifically trained

01:37:17.020 | in assessing PTSD.

01:37:18.580 | And so you're getting these variations and opinions

01:37:23.040 | that are coming through.

01:37:24.080 | And I've had clients who, to me,

01:37:27.020 | who I've worked with for years

01:37:28.460 | who have clear combat-related PTSD,

01:37:30.940 | according to gold standard measures,

01:37:32.980 | according to my knowing them and observing their symptoms

01:37:36.060 | and how impaired they are.

01:37:37.320 | And it is clearly associated with combat,

01:37:39.380 | the content of their intrusive thoughts,

01:37:41.220 | their nightmares, et cetera.

01:37:42.620 | And they are having a one-hour meeting,

01:37:46.780 | sometimes by phone, with one of these psychologists

01:37:50.180 | who's been contracted by this third-party organization.

01:37:53.920 | That's not even enough for me to get through

01:37:55.540 | the first few symptom questions

01:37:57.660 | on the CAHPS-5 assessment for PTSD.

01:38:00.420 | But in that hour, the psychologist is saying,

01:38:03.580 | definitively, "No PTSD."

01:38:06.060 | And it's been a travesty for some people,

01:38:08.360 | especially for those who need an advocate the most.

01:38:11.600 | It tends to happen to my veterans

01:38:14.080 | who are maybe a little bit less sophisticated

01:38:16.520 | in presenting or advocating for themselves,

01:38:18.680 | more humble, less...

01:38:20.360 | The guys who deserve it the most, right?

01:38:24.400 | They're just getting passed over, and it's a maze.

01:38:28.480 | I'm not quite sure what the solution is, though, before.

01:38:30.600 | I mean, I've worked for government agencies.

01:38:33.040 | It's a massive population.

01:38:35.480 | I love that the outreach is even happening

01:38:37.500 | and trying to get these guys in for assessment.

01:38:39.840 | I think we can criticize any system.

01:38:42.680 | I'm glad that system is even happening,

01:38:45.000 | but it still needs to be better.

01:38:47.520 | - So I've got a chance to interact with a lot of soldiers

01:38:51.040 | that served in Iraq and Afghanistan,

01:38:52.880 | and now a lot of soldiers from all different kinds

01:38:55.680 | of nations in Ukraine went to the front.

01:38:58.640 | There's a bond between soldiers unlike any other.

01:39:02.960 | I don't know if you can speak to why do you think that is.

01:39:06.840 | On the opposite side of PTSD,

01:39:10.160 | there's a deep human connection.

01:39:12.760 | There's a love for each other.

01:39:14.160 | What is that?

01:39:15.000 | What is that about war and combat

01:39:18.260 | that creates that kind of bond?

01:39:21.560 | - We talked earlier about that vulnerability, right?

01:39:23.960 | So I believe that combat,

01:39:27.800 | I believe that most survival situations strip away all ego,

01:39:32.840 | and I mean, there are a couple of different layers to this,

01:39:37.840 | but I have not served in war,

01:39:40.680 | so I wanna be cautious here.

01:39:43.400 | But from what I know just about psychology

01:39:47.120 | and also from my own experience

01:39:48.400 | of survival-type experiences,

01:39:51.400 | when you're with a group of people

01:39:52.840 | and all the ego's stripped away, nothing else matters.

01:39:57.840 | The focus is on the here and now

01:39:59.480 | and a specific mission or your day-to-day.

01:40:02.720 | You can get really close.

01:40:05.040 | You're very, very vulnerable.

01:40:07.480 | And also, in my experience,

01:40:12.280 | the guys I work with who have served,

01:40:15.040 | there aren't a lot of people

01:40:16.120 | who understand what they've been through,

01:40:18.480 | not only some of the unspeakable things

01:40:20.600 | they've been through in combat,

01:40:21.760 | but some of the things that they feel

01:40:23.520 | are unspeakable about returning,

01:40:25.720 | especially if they are experiencing trauma.

01:40:28.840 | A lot of them, some of the things

01:40:31.440 | that service members with PTSD

01:40:34.720 | are the most reluctant to disclose

01:40:36.760 | is the feeling like they may not know

01:40:38.720 | if they love their children anymore or their wife,

01:40:41.600 | that they don't even know if they can love anymore,

01:40:44.040 | that they feel emotionally numb,

01:40:46.260 | that they wanna kill someone,

01:40:49.840 | that they have a whole lot of racist beliefs and thoughts.

01:40:53.480 | There are a lot of things that can be associated with PTSD

01:40:57.960 | that aren't as clear or expected,

01:41:00.440 | and these guys don't have many people who understand it

01:41:04.720 | or they don't think they would,

01:41:07.160 | but a lot of their fellow service members do.

01:41:09.820 | - Man, so I'm going back to Ukraine,

01:41:16.200 | and boy, nothing makes,

01:41:24.600 | nothing makes, reveals the human condition

01:41:28.640 | in a more pure form than war,

01:41:30.640 | especially the kind of war you get

01:41:36.640 | in that part of the world,

01:41:38.240 | especially the war in Ukraine,

01:41:39.480 | which is a very 20th century kind of war.

01:41:42.380 | - Brutal.

01:41:44.880 | - Well, like I mentioned in a few different ways,

01:41:50.640 | you're exceptionally successful

01:41:53.280 | by, I think, the best definition of success.

01:41:56.360 | You're doing what you love,

01:41:58.320 | and you're one of the best people in the world

01:42:01.920 | at doing it.

01:42:02.760 | - Thank you.

01:42:03.600 | - And so what advice would you give to young people

01:42:06.520 | that look up to you, that saw you in the trial,

01:42:09.360 | which is your most public-facing thing,

01:42:11.360 | and are just looking,

01:42:14.880 | young people that are looking to find

01:42:16.560 | what they wanna do with their life, career-wise?

01:42:19.080 | - I love that question.

01:42:20.400 | - What would you tell them?

01:42:21.240 | - I'm gonna tell them something my dad told me.

01:42:23.440 | He said to me, "Shani, just pick anything.

01:42:27.340 | "Pick anything.

01:42:30.340 | "If you like it at all, studying it, just pick it."

01:42:34.200 | He was like, "Look, don't worry about the job.

01:42:37.720 | "You don't even know all the jobs that exist.

01:42:40.460 | "Pick something you like.

01:42:42.520 | "You will make it your own."

01:42:43.880 | And that is exactly what happened.

01:42:46.400 | I like psychology.

01:42:48.000 | I was reading some self-help books.

01:42:50.000 | It's not like I had this calling where I,

01:42:54.320 | looking back, I can actually create that story

01:42:57.600 | 'cause I think now it makes a lot of sense

01:42:59.960 | that I do what I do.

01:43:01.380 | But I was lost and scared.

01:43:03.720 | I started studying psychology.

01:43:06.560 | I met a professor who was really inspiring,

01:43:08.920 | who wasn't even a psychology professor,

01:43:11.360 | but he was public policy.

01:43:13.620 | I stayed in touch with that professor.

01:43:15.720 | He is a dear friend still to this day.

01:43:17.900 | That was 20 years ago.

01:43:19.680 | We do research together in Mexico, integrative research,

01:43:22.640 | with public policy officials and environmental engineers,

01:43:26.520 | and I get to be the psychologist on the trip.

01:43:28.760 | I never, ever dreamed that that sort of stuff could happen.

01:43:32.000 | I didn't know about forensic psychology.

01:43:34.400 | I also wanna warn anybody who's interested

01:43:36.320 | in forensic psychology that it's not like

01:43:37.840 | you're solving crimes all day and getting calls by the FBI.

01:43:42.000 | You are going to be sitting alone in your home office

01:43:45.300 | with your husband bringing you bowls of cereal

01:43:48.200 | and reminding you to go to the bathroom

01:43:49.880 | 'cause you haven't gotten up in like 24 hours

01:43:52.800 | from the computer,

01:43:54.240 | and you're gonna have papers all around you,

01:43:57.660 | and you're just gonna write 75 dense pages

01:44:02.440 | with citations of science.

01:44:05.560 | It's brutal, it's academic.

01:44:07.580 | But you're gonna love it. But it's fulfilling.

01:44:10.880 | My friend Franny posted a meme of one of the girls

01:44:15.080 | from Glee or something crying and saying,

01:44:17.760 | I'm the happiest I've ever been.

01:44:19.840 | And she said it reminds her of when I try to convince her

01:44:22.040 | to do forensic psych 'cause I think her mind

01:44:24.440 | is perfect for it.

01:44:25.280 | You have to be strategic and thorough,

01:44:27.240 | but it's a slog.

01:44:29.380 | But it's wonderful. It's wonderful.

01:44:31.240 | - The image of your husband bringing you cereal

01:44:33.640 | while you work on the 75 pages

01:44:35.440 | is maybe the most romantic thing I've ever heard.

01:44:38.680 | So we started on love.

01:44:40.480 | Let me ask one last question about the same topic.

01:44:43.920 | What's the role of love in this whole thing,

01:44:46.600 | in the human condition,

01:44:48.080 | in this whole experiment we've got going on on earth?

01:44:51.520 | - I think it's all there is, like that "Jewel" song.

01:44:54.080 | (Bridget laughs)

01:44:55.560 | - How's that go?

01:44:56.400 | - God, I don't, don't sing it, don't sing it,

01:44:58.040 | don't get it in my head.

01:44:58.880 | - Please don't sing it.

01:44:59.720 | (Lex laughs)

01:45:01.400 | - There have been some profound moments in my life

01:45:03.520 | where I feel like I am closest to kind of the truth of life

01:45:08.520 | or what it's all about.

01:45:11.300 | And usually there's this resonating sense of love and ease

01:45:15.560 | and love for myself, love for other people,

01:45:19.680 | sort of like it's all okay, we're all okay,

01:45:21.600 | we're gonna get through this.

01:45:23.040 | I liked what you said about the harm caused

01:45:28.440 | by the misinformation or negative things being said about you

01:45:33.440 | because you're right, it harms that bigger picture.

01:45:36.760 | I think it holds us back, takes us back from that truth.

01:45:41.760 | - That there's a love that connects all of us

01:45:43.920 | and that if you remember about that love,

01:45:46.880 | it's all going to be okay.

01:45:48.520 | I really hope it's going to be okay.

01:45:50.520 | - Me too.

01:45:51.920 | - I believe it will be.

01:45:53.160 | Thank you so much for talking today, Shannon.

01:45:55.160 | You're an incredible person.

01:45:56.440 | Thank you for everything you do.

01:45:57.280 | - You are too.

01:45:58.100 | - And for everything you stand for

01:45:59.520 | and from everything from your text message

01:46:02.240 | to just who you are and for this amazing conversation.

01:46:05.760 | - Thank you.

01:46:06.600 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:46:08.960 | with Shannon Curry.

01:46:10.160 | To support this podcast,

01:46:11.320 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

01:46:13.960 | And now let me leave you with some more words

01:46:16.960 | from Charles Bukowski.

01:46:18.460 | Sometimes you climb out of bed in the morning

01:46:21.680 | and you think, I'm not going to make it,

01:46:24.960 | but you laugh inside,

01:46:26.560 | remembering all the times you felt that way.

01:46:29.060 | Thank you for listening.

01:46:31.440 | I hope to see you next time.

01:46:33.400 | (upbeat music)

01:46:35.980 | (upbeat music)

01:46:38.560 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366

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