Dr. Becky Kennedy: Overcoming Guilt & Building Tenacity in Kids & Adults

00:00:00.000 | Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:00:02.260 | where we discuss science

00:00:03.680 | and science-based tools for everyday life.

00:00:05.840 | [upbeat music]

00:00:08.420 | I'm Andrew Huberman,

00:00:10.440 | and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

00:00:13.520 | at Stanford School of Medicine.

00:00:15.480 | My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy.

00:00:18.000 | Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist

00:00:20.380 | and one of the world's foremost experts

00:00:22.240 | in parent-child relationships.

00:00:24.160 | Now, you may or may not have children.

00:00:26.200 | If you do, today's episode is absolutely for you.

00:00:29.320 | If you don't, well, you were once a child.

00:00:32.080 | Perhaps you're even still a child.

00:00:33.960 | Today's episode also will have valuable knowledge

00:00:36.360 | and tools that you can apply to your life.

00:00:38.840 | Today, Dr. Becky Kennedy teaches us an immense number

00:00:41.640 | of extremely valuable tools for the workplace,

00:00:44.920 | for romantic relationships,

00:00:46.460 | for family relationships of all types,

00:00:48.400 | not just parent-child relationships,

00:00:50.080 | and of course, also for parent-child relationships.

00:00:53.340 | We discuss themes that have not been discussed previously

00:00:55.880 | on the Huberman Lab Podcast, topics such as guilt,

00:00:58.920 | which Dr. Becky Kennedy offers

00:01:00.260 | a completely unique perspective on,

00:01:01.940 | one that I've never heard before,

00:01:03.280 | and that, frankly, I don't think anyone has heard before.

00:01:05.880 | In fact, she distinguishes

00:01:06.920 | between what most people think is guilt

00:01:09.180 | and an entirely different set of emotions,

00:01:11.480 | and offers you very useful practical tools

00:01:13.960 | for when you experience guilt and how to work with guilt.

00:01:16.720 | We also extensively discuss frustration,

00:01:19.040 | or what she calls frustration tolerance.

00:01:21.580 | Frustration tolerance is an extremely important theme

00:01:24.520 | for everybody to understand and apply in their lives,

00:01:26.960 | because frustration tolerance,

00:01:28.440 | as Dr. Becky Kennedy so aptly points out,

00:01:31.040 | is central to the learning process of anything at every age.

00:01:35.240 | If you can understand this concept

00:01:36.840 | and you apply some of the very simple rules and tools

00:01:39.040 | that Dr. Kennedy explains during the podcast,

00:01:41.440 | I assure you, you can learn many more things

00:01:44.160 | much more quickly and with much greater satisfaction,

00:01:47.440 | if not during the process,

00:01:48.800 | certainly at the end when you master that learning.

00:01:51.740 | And those are just a few of the themes

00:01:53.160 | that we discussed during today's episode.

00:01:54.660 | Again, whether or not you have children,

00:01:56.680 | I assure you that today's episode

00:01:58.320 | is going to be immensely beneficial

00:02:00.080 | for all of your relationships.

00:02:02.160 | You will notice during today's episode

00:02:04.080 | that our studio backdrop is different.

00:02:06.480 | You will notice that for once,

00:02:08.320 | I was not wearing this particular style of shirt.

00:02:10.840 | The reason for that is that this episode was recorded

00:02:13.120 | during the LA fires,

00:02:14.660 | what was initially called the Palisades fire,

00:02:17.360 | and then spread to multiple fires throughout LA County.

00:02:20.460 | So we were not able to access our normal studio.

00:02:23.280 | So I want to express extreme gratitude to Rich Roll,

00:02:26.840 | our good friend in the podcasting space,

00:02:28.820 | who allowed us to use his podcast studio,

00:02:31.060 | which is where I'm seated now,

00:02:32.640 | and where I held the discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

00:02:35.300 | First off, our entire team,

00:02:37.000 | our homes and our studio are fine.

00:02:39.660 | I can assure you of that.

00:02:40.680 | But most importantly,

00:02:42.280 | our thoughts and our prayers go out to the people

00:02:44.440 | who have lost their homes, lost pets,

00:02:46.580 | and sadly there have been fatalities during the LA fires.

00:02:49.840 | So our thoughts and prayers are with them

00:02:51.480 | and their families, and we hope everyone remains safe.

00:02:55.040 | Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

00:02:57.680 | is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

00:03:00.340 | It is however, part of my desire and effort

00:03:02.240 | to bring zero cost to consumer information

00:03:04.040 | about science and science-related tools

00:03:05.920 | to the general public.

00:03:07.120 | In keeping with that theme,

00:03:08.320 | today's episode does include sponsors.

00:03:10.760 | And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

00:03:13.900 | Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome back.

00:03:16.620 | - I'm so happy to be here.

00:03:18.400 | Grateful to Rich Roll for lending us his studio

00:03:21.960 | under the duress of fires in Los Angeles.

00:03:25.000 | I'm praying that his home is okay.

00:03:26.700 | It's unclear at this moment, but in any event,

00:03:30.640 | let's talk about emotions, both theory and practice.

00:03:36.820 | And if we can place it in the context of parenting,

00:03:39.580 | that would be great,

00:03:40.420 | but I'm certain that this has a broader theme

00:03:43.220 | that pertains to everybody.

00:03:44.940 | So I love the theory of emotions

00:03:47.680 | or how we would theoretically respond to something,

00:03:50.340 | but then there's the reality.

00:03:51.840 | So as a parent, let's say you have a stance in your home

00:03:56.840 | and in your family that it's okay to be sad.

00:04:00.800 | Like sadness is normal, it happens, it passes, et cetera.

00:04:05.480 | Let's say you're feeling particularly sad about something.

00:04:08.700 | Do you express that and show that in front of your kids?

00:04:13.120 | Because I've also heard that young kids in particular,

00:04:16.800 | younger than eight or nine,

00:04:18.480 | perhaps shouldn't be aware that their parents

00:04:21.440 | are experiencing say extreme sadness

00:04:24.480 | because it can be scary to them

00:04:26.280 | or they might feel like their world is destabilizing.

00:04:28.380 | And then we also hear a lot about kids feeling

00:04:31.080 | like they had to parent the parents

00:04:32.840 | and then this whole thing becomes pretty complicated.

00:04:34.520 | So while there's no perfect world

00:04:37.000 | where one knows what to do every single time,

00:04:40.420 | how do you look at this business of modeling emotions

00:04:44.260 | and also encouraging kids to be able to experience

00:04:47.440 | and express their emotions?

00:04:49.240 | - Yeah, and I think everything I'm about to share

00:04:51.480 | applies in the workplace, right?

00:04:53.400 | Like can a boss be really upset

00:04:56.340 | in front of the person they manage, management, right?

00:04:58.240 | So it's all the same stuff.

00:04:59.780 | So I guess zooming out as a start,

00:05:02.580 | emotions are normal, emotions are unstoppable.

00:05:08.860 | You can't not feel sad just because you have

00:05:11.660 | your five-year-old in the room, right?

00:05:14.180 | And I think the other thing that kind of forms

00:05:17.000 | my perspective is it's really hard

00:05:20.260 | to not show someone that you're sad.

00:05:22.900 | Like you might think you're doing that well,

00:05:25.280 | but kids are extra perceptive.

00:05:27.960 | They are actually built to be more perceptive than we are

00:05:30.860 | because their survival depends on adults.

00:05:33.740 | So they have to always notice, is my adult around?

00:05:36.940 | Is my adult okay?

00:05:37.900 | So they really attune to what's going on for us, right?

00:05:42.780 | And so I think the kind of question is less,

00:05:46.300 | do I show my emotions to my kid or not?

00:05:49.260 | And it's more, okay, if I'm sad, my kid is gonna notice.

00:05:53.520 | What do I do then?

00:05:55.560 | And as a principal, one of the things I think about often

00:05:58.960 | is information doesn't scare kids

00:06:01.940 | as much as the absence of information scares kids.

00:06:05.220 | So let's say there's something really awful.

00:06:09.240 | I don't know, as a parent, you're a family member,

00:06:12.540 | someone died of cancer.

00:06:13.860 | I don't know, there's something really horrible

00:06:15.660 | that you just found out, right?

00:06:18.180 | There's wildfires right now.

00:06:19.580 | Let's say you evacuated and you found out

00:06:22.260 | your house burned down, you're sad.

00:06:25.680 | Your child is going to notice that

00:06:28.120 | and you want your child to notice that.

00:06:31.020 | You don't want your kid to be a teenager, an adult,

00:06:34.940 | who goes around the world unable to pick up

00:06:39.060 | on emotional cues from other people.

00:06:41.060 | That's not adaptive.

00:06:42.760 | And so the patterns we set with our kids when they're young

00:06:46.700 | inform their view of the world when they're older.

00:06:50.860 | And so here I am, let's say it's the situation

00:06:53.820 | of somebody dying and I'm upset.

00:06:55.700 | First of all, as a parent, tell yourself,

00:06:57.860 | it's not my kid seeing me sad

00:07:01.480 | that's going to destabilize them.

00:07:03.940 | It's seeing me sad and me making up a bogus story

00:07:08.800 | or denying it because then my kid goes,

00:07:11.740 | pretty sure my mom was upset.

00:07:13.020 | Oh, she's not?

00:07:13.980 | Oh, she's pretending like nothing happened?

00:07:15.780 | Oh, she looks sad, but she's saying she's not sad.

00:07:19.140 | That is really upsetting.

00:07:20.940 | It would be like hearing your boss say,

00:07:24.340 | oh yeah, 20% layoffs, what are we doing?

00:07:26.740 | I don't know.

00:07:27.580 | Oh, hi, everything's great, how are you?

00:07:29.780 | Like, what is happening?

00:07:31.100 | - Scary.

00:07:31.940 | - What you'd want is your boss say,

00:07:32.980 | you just heard something.

00:07:34.340 | You were right to hear that.

00:07:36.980 | We are about to go through a really tough time.

00:07:40.100 | I'm stressed about it, that's why I yelled.

00:07:42.020 | You might be stressed, here's what I know.

00:07:44.760 | This is going to be hard

00:07:45.600 | and we're going to get through it together.

00:07:47.200 | Now, all of a sudden,

00:07:48.980 | that emotional experience has a container.

00:07:52.120 | It has a story.

00:07:53.360 | Humans need stories, we like stories.

00:07:56.600 | And so often we think it's the emotions

00:07:59.200 | that dysregulate a kid.

00:08:00.840 | It's the lack of a story to explain it.

00:08:03.960 | So let's say this really did happen.

00:08:06.360 | People always say to me,

00:08:07.200 | okay, but Dr. Becky, like my kid is four.

00:08:09.800 | I'm going to say that their aunt died.

00:08:11.680 | They don't even know cancer, right?

00:08:14.200 | We don't have a better alternative.

00:08:15.640 | I can't even tell you how many parents I've seen

00:08:17.320 | whose kids have all of these issues

00:08:19.400 | because of the made up stories.

00:08:20.800 | I just said she went to sleep for a while.

00:08:23.000 | Six months later,

00:08:23.840 | my kid has a lot of trouble sleeping through the night.

00:08:25.820 | Yeah, they haven't seen their aunt

00:08:27.400 | who went to sleep one time.

00:08:28.780 | Creates a huge issue,

00:08:30.880 | no matter what bogus story you make up.

00:08:33.640 | Kids can handle the truth

00:08:35.680 | and they can handle the truth when it's told to them

00:08:38.920 | from a loving, trusted adult.

00:08:40.400 | It's kind of like me and you.

00:08:42.000 | Someone can tell us a hard truth,

00:08:43.320 | but it's from someone you feel safe with

00:08:45.680 | and that you feel like also believes in you

00:08:48.040 | and says it honestly.

00:08:49.500 | It might be hard, but it doesn't feel awful.

00:08:52.560 | So it's about saying to your kid, you saw me crying.

00:08:57.560 | One of my favorite kind of sentences

00:09:00.000 | to say to kids around this,

00:09:01.240 | 'cause I think it really builds their confidence,

00:09:02.960 | is just, you were right to notice that I was crying

00:09:07.760 | and I'm feeling sad.

00:09:08.800 | And look, you saw that.

00:09:10.200 | I'm gonna tell you why.

00:09:11.440 | Making this up.

00:09:13.920 | Aunt Sally died.

00:09:16.600 | Do you know what dying means?

00:09:18.460 | Dying is when someone's body stops working.

00:09:22.600 | Then I pause.

00:09:23.700 | Right, so it'll just be a monologue.

00:09:24.760 | I'll see how my kid responds.

00:09:26.160 | I might add, I'm not dying.

00:09:29.840 | Kids actually really need to hear that in hard times.

00:09:32.840 | I'm not dying.

00:09:34.560 | No one else is dying.

00:09:36.840 | I'm safe.

00:09:37.920 | And you know what?

00:09:39.280 | I'm sad.

00:09:41.000 | And I'm still your strong mom who can take care of you.

00:09:44.900 | That sets the stage for such resilience

00:09:47.980 | and is kind of the opposite of everything's fine.

00:09:52.180 | My kid keeps seeing me crying.

00:09:54.040 | They keep hearing words they're not used to hearing,

00:09:56.160 | die, cancer, Aunt Sally, funeral, whatever it is.

00:09:59.520 | That situation is what makes kids feel really,

00:10:02.880 | really uncomfortable and unsafe.

00:10:04.620 | So it's the absence of information that causes the harm.

00:10:10.680 | Yeah.

00:10:11.520 | And it's the lack of coherence

00:10:13.500 | between what they're observing and feeling

00:10:15.920 | and kind of this like open loop.

00:10:19.080 | If I kind of place it in neuroscience-y terms,

00:10:22.660 | I feel like the brain does think in terms of stories.

00:10:26.560 | Stories have a beginning, middle, and an end,

00:10:28.440 | and they kind of want to know where they are in that story.

00:10:31.280 | That's exactly right.

00:10:32.240 | And the terms I would use to match your terms

00:10:34.640 | are coherent narrative.

00:10:37.760 | What is therapy?

00:10:38.600 | Why does therapy help people?

00:10:39.640 | It's interesting.

00:10:40.480 | Therapy doesn't change what happened to you.

00:10:42.200 | Therapy doesn't change your past.

00:10:43.560 | Therapy does not take away the pain,

00:10:46.200 | but the pain was never the thing that really got in our way.

00:10:50.920 | It was the pain plus a lack

00:10:52.760 | of a coherent narrative and support.

00:10:55.320 | And so early on, when kids have painful experiences

00:10:57.960 | from witnessing you or something else,

00:11:00.240 | giving them a coherent narrative is what they need.

00:11:03.240 | And without that, the way I think about it is

00:11:05.680 | they have what I call unformulated experience.

00:11:08.780 | It's just affect and experience

00:11:11.240 | that kind of free floats in their body, unformulated,

00:11:15.400 | that tends to later show up as triggers, right?

00:11:18.640 | And kind of other things in adulthood.

00:11:20.760 | And so, yeah,

00:11:21.600 | that's what we want to try to avoid when we can.

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00:14:26.120 | I can't help but put this neuroscience lens on this

00:14:29.120 | 'cause I find it so interesting

00:14:31.680 | that what you're basically saying,

00:14:34.160 | if I understand correctly,

00:14:35.160 | is that until we can place things into a story,

00:14:37.960 | which is really a sense of beginning, middle and end,

00:14:40.400 | a sense of time,

00:14:42.280 | it just reverberates in us.

00:14:44.480 | I mean, I think I can't help myself.

00:14:46.720 | You know, I don't wanna give the impression

00:14:49.040 | we've got fires burning all around us

00:14:51.000 | in terms of this building,

00:14:51.880 | but with some distance between us and the fires,

00:14:54.040 | that's actually true.

00:14:54.880 | And I think one of the things that's so destabilizing

00:14:57.940 | for kids and adults in this kind of circumstance

00:15:00.080 | is that we don't know how this is gonna work out.

00:15:02.800 | We just don't.

00:15:03.640 | And of course, none of us have a crystal ball.

00:15:05.880 | We can't peer into the future,

00:15:07.440 | but it's the not knowing

00:15:08.600 | that really extends our brain resources.

00:15:11.400 | And I can imagine that for a kid,

00:15:13.200 | seeing their parent upset and then hearing,

00:15:15.680 | well, no, I'm okay, I'm okay,

00:15:18.160 | would create this kind of open loop

00:15:20.560 | where then the kid has to worry about it.

00:15:23.200 | Like, when will this come to an end?

00:15:25.000 | One question about expressing sadness in front of a child,

00:15:31.120 | and if, let's say, somebody expresses why they're sad,

00:15:34.420 | is it okay to accept consolation from the kid?

00:15:38.920 | Because we hear so much that we shouldn't have to parent.

00:15:42.280 | As children, we shouldn't have to parent our parents.

00:15:44.640 | And this is a big theme,

00:15:45.880 | especially on social media nowadays.

00:15:48.040 | Were you the parent to your parent?

00:15:49.960 | Were you the one that took out the trash

00:15:51.720 | when someone else should have done it

00:15:52.800 | and therefore you took on more responsibilities?

00:15:55.300 | I don't want kids to think

00:15:56.140 | they shouldn't take out the trash,

00:15:56.980 | but you know what I mean?

00:15:58.400 | But if you're consoling a parent about a lost job,

00:16:01.640 | if you're the kid, rather,

00:16:03.480 | that is sort of the go-between between the parents,

00:16:05.920 | is sort of acting as therapist,

00:16:07.160 | we hear about this a lot, a lot.

00:16:09.760 | And I think a lot of people peer into their past

00:16:11.520 | and say, yeah, I grew up way too fast.

00:16:14.600 | - Right, yeah.

00:16:15.440 | - So on the other hand, I think we would all agree

00:16:18.120 | that being a empathic person,

00:16:22.120 | teaching our kids that if somebody's crying,

00:16:24.440 | you can walk over to that person, perhaps,

00:16:26.520 | and just say, you know, do you want me to sit with you?

00:16:28.880 | Or maybe do nothing at all.

00:16:30.280 | Maybe offer a solution, maybe not.

00:16:32.320 | But at least, you know, provide some sort of support.

00:16:34.560 | That seems healthy.

00:16:36.360 | But the basic question is,

00:16:37.400 | should parents accept consolation from children

00:16:41.480 | when the parent is sad

00:16:43.000 | or experiencing some other negative emotion?

00:16:45.560 | - I think this is a great question.

00:16:47.160 | There's a couple things that are coming to mind.

00:16:48.640 | So first of all,

00:16:49.480 | all of this is a matter of extent and patterning.

00:16:52.840 | Yes, we do not want our kids to feel like it is their job

00:16:57.040 | to take care of our emotions.

00:16:59.280 | It's not a good situation.

00:17:00.760 | And I think the difference here actually comes down

00:17:04.280 | to what the true definition of empathy is.

00:17:07.640 | To me, empathy is noticing someone's feelings

00:17:10.280 | and caring about them.

00:17:12.520 | It's not taking care of them.

00:17:16.240 | That's a big difference.

00:17:17.320 | So let's say I'm crying and my kid comes over

00:17:19.960 | and this whole situation, maybe somebody died.

00:17:22.960 | And they're like, oh my goodness, mom,

00:17:24.560 | can I give you a hug?

00:17:25.920 | And do you want me to get you a cup of water?

00:17:29.200 | Okay, I just want parents to know,

00:17:30.040 | you don't have to say, no, no,

00:17:31.480 | I do not want you to be a parentified child.

00:17:33.680 | Like, be like, that is so, that is so kind.

00:17:37.720 | Yes, that would feel great.

00:17:39.040 | Okay, that's totally fine.

00:17:41.080 | I think the line is, and every parent

00:17:42.960 | just knows this for themselves,

00:17:44.840 | where it might get to, oh, you know what?

00:17:46.880 | I love that you're noticing I'm sad.

00:17:50.000 | And I love that you care about that.

00:17:51.760 | And I also want to let you know,

00:17:53.520 | those are my feelings, not yours.

00:17:57.760 | And I am really able to take care of them myself

00:18:01.680 | with whoever is a friend.

00:18:04.400 | And you're still really allowed to be a kid

00:18:06.600 | who can go play, who can go have fun,

00:18:09.760 | who can even not listen to me once in a while

00:18:11.480 | when I say it's bath time.

00:18:13.000 | That's actually your job.

00:18:14.760 | So let's go do our jobs well.

00:18:17.080 | And to me, that comes down to what empathy is,

00:18:19.840 | the delineation of like, what is a parent's job

00:18:22.160 | and what is a kid's job?

00:18:24.360 | But also, I think all of this can get misrepresented

00:18:27.400 | in social media.

00:18:28.880 | And I don't want parents to think

00:18:30.240 | that they always have to chastise their kid

00:18:32.120 | for acting in a caring way.

00:18:33.480 | - I feel like kids are, as you said before,

00:18:36.920 | kids are so perceptive about what their parents

00:18:39.160 | are experiencing and they'll create

00:18:42.120 | or move towards all sorts of emotional gymnastics

00:18:46.000 | in order to work with that.

00:18:47.240 | Years ago, I saw, I think it was a YouTube video

00:18:49.840 | with Jim Carrey, who basically revealed

00:18:52.200 | that he became funny as a way to make his sick mom laugh,

00:18:57.200 | that he grew up with a very sick mom,

00:18:59.840 | which is chronically ill.

00:19:01.280 | And so he would like throw himself down the stairs

00:19:03.680 | and try and make her laugh or do, you know,

00:19:05.080 | and he was an incredible world-class physical comic,

00:19:09.600 | among other aspects of comedy.

00:19:12.280 | But that his whole career was born out

00:19:13.840 | of this childhood tendency to notice

00:19:16.440 | that his mom was really hurting

00:19:18.400 | and try and basically make her laugh,

00:19:20.720 | make her feel something good.

00:19:22.600 | And, you know, now I'm thinking about this

00:19:24.680 | because it's just incredible the way

00:19:27.120 | that kids can pick up on something

00:19:28.560 | and then try and find a solution to it.

00:19:31.720 | You know, I could imagine that for kids

00:19:33.080 | who have a sick parent, it could be mental challenges

00:19:36.880 | or physical challenges that they've got to notice.

00:19:39.840 | - Yes.

00:19:40.680 | - And in the case of Jim Carrey,

00:19:42.040 | one could argue whether or not it was adaptive

00:19:43.520 | or not adaptive.

00:19:44.360 | He had this, you know, meteoric career,

00:19:46.600 | but eventually just left it,

00:19:48.760 | decided that wasn't what he wanted to do.

00:19:50.480 | - Yeah.

00:19:51.840 | - But leaving that extreme example aside,

00:19:54.800 | let's say a parent is sick with the flu

00:19:57.040 | or is grieving the loss of, you know,

00:20:00.000 | God forbid, a spouse or something really major.

00:20:04.240 | - Yeah.

00:20:05.080 | - At what point does the parent need to say,

00:20:09.800 | "Listen, I'm really hurting.

00:20:11.680 | This is bad and I can handle it."

00:20:16.200 | When that might not actually be true.

00:20:18.960 | So the question is, you know,

00:20:20.440 | how much information to give kids.

00:20:24.120 | - Yeah.

00:20:24.960 | - Because you don't want to lie to them.

00:20:26.120 | On the other hand, you don't want them

00:20:27.960 | to feel the burden of needing to worry about a circumstance.

00:20:32.120 | And I'm framing this in the context of sick parent,

00:20:34.320 | but I'm also raising this thing of financial worries.

00:20:38.280 | - Yeah.

00:20:39.120 | - I have a close friend who told me that growing up,

00:20:42.640 | their parent was constantly dealing with, you know,

00:20:47.600 | moving from one job to the next.

00:20:48.800 | It was like this issue of whether or not

00:20:50.200 | we're going to have enough resources

00:20:51.840 | to get through the next year was a constant question.

00:20:55.320 | And this person is now in their mid thirties

00:20:58.440 | and you can tell it still haunts them.

00:21:00.200 | And it's completely shaped their relationship

00:21:01.800 | to work and finances.

00:21:02.760 | - Yeah.

00:21:03.600 | - Yeah.

00:21:04.440 | - I mean, I think we can think about this compared to,

00:21:06.720 | like, what would I want for my boss?

00:21:08.800 | I have a boss who's, I don't know,

00:21:10.280 | going through a really hard time

00:21:11.840 | or having a really hard time at home.

00:21:13.680 | And I kind of notice it.

00:21:15.160 | I'd probably want my boss to level with me and say,

00:21:17.400 | kind of again, "You're right to notice

00:21:18.840 | I'm going through a hard time."

00:21:20.400 | But at what point would it feel like,

00:21:23.960 | "Ooh, am I safe in this organization?"

00:21:27.560 | Right?

00:21:28.400 | I think we probably all have a point there.

00:21:29.920 | And I think it's the same thing with kids.

00:21:32.240 | Kids really do need to feel like they have sturdy parents.

00:21:37.160 | Again, I always go back to pilots

00:21:38.640 | because I think airplane examples are so powerful

00:21:41.160 | because there's very few times in adulthood

00:21:43.640 | that we actually feel like our safety is truly dependent

00:21:46.800 | on another adult, like a hundred percent.

00:21:49.520 | When you're a passenger in an airplane,

00:21:51.520 | you are 100% dependent.

00:21:53.280 | So it's kind of the closest dynamic.

00:21:55.280 | And you can imagine what it would be like

00:21:58.240 | if the pilot was saying,

00:21:59.080 | "I'm going through a really hard time.

00:22:00.400 | Who wants to come in and give me, you know,

00:22:02.680 | I don't know, you know, tell me a nice story."

00:22:05.040 | You'd be like, "Oh my goodness.

00:22:06.200 | Like, I get you're going through a hard time,

00:22:08.120 | but this is really not feeling great."

00:22:10.080 | Right?

00:22:11.280 | And what that means and which is, you know,

00:22:13.400 | kind of even a larger point is if you're a pilot,

00:22:16.280 | you need to make sure you're really doing a lot of self-care

00:22:19.600 | more than the average person

00:22:20.760 | because of this outsized responsibility you have.

00:22:23.840 | This is what I think about parenting.

00:22:26.240 | And it's why from, you know,

00:22:28.320 | the bigger theme here is this is what gets me out of bed,

00:22:31.240 | you know, every morning so motivated

00:22:33.120 | is not just to help parents understand tantrums or emotions

00:22:36.400 | or, you know, the latest struggle in their house.

00:22:38.760 | Although I actually love that.

00:22:40.760 | It's to say, "Hold on.

00:22:41.600 | Like, we've been really sold an awful story

00:22:44.920 | about what it really means to be a parent

00:22:46.640 | and how parenting really, first and foremost,

00:22:50.360 | is a journey of self-care.

00:22:52.200 | How can I be the sturdiest person possible?

00:22:54.520 | Who do I need in my life when things go poorly

00:22:58.320 | so I don't lean on my young children

00:23:01.600 | and give them a responsibility that is not theirs?"

00:23:05.360 | You know, I was just saying to someone the other day

00:23:07.400 | that when you have kids,

00:23:09.320 | all of the unhealed parts of your childhood

00:23:12.800 | come right before your eyes.

00:23:15.440 | They are just triggered over and over and over

00:23:18.320 | with your own children.

00:23:19.640 | Like, you know, "Oh, my kid's whining.

00:23:21.520 | I can't deal with that."

00:23:22.640 | Oh, well, whining is probably triggering

00:23:25.480 | 'cause it's kind of representative of helplessness.

00:23:28.440 | What was it like in my family if I kind of felt helpless?

00:23:30.640 | Was that allowed?

00:23:31.480 | Did I grow up in a, you know,

00:23:33.880 | "If you don't stop crying,

00:23:34.800 | I'll give you something to cry about," family?

00:23:36.880 | Okay, if I don't resolve that,

00:23:38.800 | I'm going to act that all out on my children

00:23:41.800 | and pass that along.

00:23:43.400 | So all of kind of these situations

00:23:47.560 | where parents are feeling all these different emotions

00:23:49.840 | from a trigger, from something in their life,

00:23:52.520 | I think it goes to what I always tell parents.

00:23:54.520 | You know, you have a first and foremost job

00:23:58.840 | of self-care and taking care of yourself.

00:24:01.200 | That doesn't mean traveling to Europe for the year

00:24:03.160 | and leaving your kids alone.

00:24:04.480 | It means what is going on inside you.

00:24:06.640 | What skills do you need?

00:24:07.920 | What networks of support do you need?

00:24:10.280 | What do you have around you to help you

00:24:12.600 | on the hardest journey of your life

00:24:14.240 | and the most rewarding one of being a parent

00:24:17.240 | so that you don't have to say to your kids,

00:24:20.000 | you know, "Oh, you know, can you kind of take care of me?"

00:24:23.360 | - Paul Conti, who came on this podcast

00:24:27.000 | to do a series about mental health,

00:24:29.600 | not just mental challenges, but also mental health,

00:24:32.680 | which is an interesting concept in its own right,

00:24:35.120 | has been quoted as saying that, you know,

00:24:38.440 | that if you were to list out the 100 most important things

00:24:41.400 | for romantic relationships,

00:24:43.400 | it would be self-care and communication repeated 50 times.

00:24:48.400 | And I'm thinking about that now

00:24:50.160 | because it sounds like a pretty good model

00:24:52.120 | for pretty much every relationship.

00:24:54.240 | - Yes.

00:24:55.080 | - Self-care, communication.

00:24:56.120 | And I must say, the first time I heard him say that,

00:24:57.920 | it wasn't on my podcast, it was on a different podcast,

00:25:01.520 | sort of surprised.

00:25:02.360 | I thought, self-care first?

00:25:04.360 | But the way you're framing it,

00:25:06.600 | it seems to me that if self-care comes first,

00:25:09.320 | or at least very high on the list of what parents should do,

00:25:12.800 | it frees up the kids to live and experience life

00:25:16.240 | with a lot more ease.

00:25:18.400 | - Yeah.

00:25:19.240 | - A lot more peace.

00:25:20.200 | - Yeah.

00:25:21.040 | - And to basically unburden them of about 50,000 jobs.

00:25:25.480 | - That's exactly right.

00:25:26.320 | And I think self-care has gotten, you know, misrepresented.

00:25:31.160 | It doesn't mean getting a manicure every week.

00:25:33.080 | It could, if that does it for you.

00:25:34.920 | But when I think about self-care,

00:25:36.000 | and I really think about the work we do with parents

00:25:37.920 | at Good Inside, we always say Good Inside,

00:25:40.480 | and like our app, it's not parenting.

00:25:43.040 | It's for parents.

00:25:44.280 | It's for the journey of what it means to be a parent.

00:25:46.440 | It's for your own stuff.

00:25:47.400 | It's for your triggers.

00:25:48.840 | It's for finally learning how to set boundaries.

00:25:51.360 | It's about finally learning

00:25:53.440 | that it's okay to get your needs met,

00:25:55.280 | even when they inconvenience others.

00:25:57.240 | It's learning that your relationships are strong enough,

00:26:00.080 | that they can get through hard moments

00:26:02.840 | where people are upset with you, right?

00:26:05.040 | It's about finally saying to,

00:26:07.760 | if you need to, your mother-in-law,

00:26:09.240 | we can't have any visitors on Saturday.

00:26:11.400 | And the reason I'm finally able to do that

00:26:13.400 | is 'cause I understand my self-value

00:26:15.480 | and all this stuff that has nothing to do

00:26:17.400 | with the fact that your kid isn't sleeping at night.

00:26:19.680 | But that is the foundation for intervening

00:26:23.160 | in the way you're proud of

00:26:24.520 | when your kid is waking you up at two in the morning.

00:26:26.880 | Right, so that is the self-care.

00:26:28.360 | It's really like a, not just self-care,

00:26:30.400 | it's self-establishment.

00:26:32.000 | It's self-growth, really.

00:26:33.720 | - I don't know the psychology literature

00:26:37.280 | or clinical literature around this,

00:26:38.840 | but I'm thinking about speed of emotional shifts.

00:26:43.400 | In my own experience of life,

00:26:46.120 | I've known moody people,

00:26:48.600 | and I've known not as moody people.

00:26:52.600 | I define moody as people whose moods fluctuate quickly

00:26:56.120 | and sometimes spontaneously.

00:26:57.920 | But this idea that some people are steady as a rock

00:27:01.760 | is a great concept,

00:27:03.680 | but we also know that we need to feel our emotions,

00:27:06.120 | express them to some extent.

00:27:08.160 | And yet there are people where if we were to plot this,

00:27:11.040 | it would look like a high-frequency wave

00:27:12.800 | where some people are really upset,

00:27:14.160 | then they're feeling better again.

00:27:15.240 | They're upset, then they're feeling better again.

00:27:16.480 | I'm not talking about extreme pathology here.

00:27:18.640 | I'm talking about someone cuts them off in traffic

00:27:22.160 | and they're pissed, but then they're fine.

00:27:24.280 | They're very, very happy about something they see,

00:27:26.320 | so it doesn't always have to be negative.

00:27:28.080 | But then they're kind of like flat affect,

00:27:29.560 | and then they're into something negative.

00:27:31.320 | I think that experience of emotions

00:27:34.960 | is so far and away different

00:27:36.760 | from the experience of emotions emitted from somebody

00:27:40.120 | who you can kind of see the emotion coming.

00:27:43.240 | It's like a slow swell.

00:27:44.680 | It's like a expansion and then a contraction again

00:27:48.640 | that you have time.

00:27:50.560 | And I feel like I keep coming back

00:27:51.800 | to this theme of time perception,

00:27:53.480 | but anytime we have time

00:27:55.000 | or we hear about like in all the Buddhist traditions,

00:27:57.200 | like space, like you're trying to create mental space

00:27:59.800 | and this gap between stimulus and response,

00:28:02.240 | it all sounds great, but with some people,

00:28:04.560 | you have to really be on your toes

00:28:06.320 | or perhaps you disengage.

00:28:09.200 | And so I've never heard a satisfying answer to this,

00:28:11.960 | probably 'cause I've never asked it out loud.

00:28:14.240 | If you're a kid or if you're a parent

00:28:17.840 | and somebody is experiencing something,

00:28:20.320 | let's say they're really angry or really happy,

00:28:22.680 | you can imagine riding that wave in with them.

00:28:26.760 | You could also imagine sitting back from it.

00:28:28.760 | And some of this is probably what we'd call temperament,

00:28:31.400 | but maybe you could talk about this a little bit

00:28:34.360 | in the context of having one or both parents

00:28:36.200 | that's kind of like a high frequency shifts

00:28:38.800 | between emotions versus kind of a slow expansion

00:28:41.560 | and then settling of emotions.

00:28:44.240 | 'Cause I feel like those are two completely different

00:28:46.960 | experiences of life.

00:28:48.320 | - Yeah.

00:28:49.240 | I mean, I think you're speaking to how differently

00:28:52.240 | we feel emotions.

00:28:53.400 | I mean, I think about one of my kids

00:28:55.480 | who I call a deeply feeling kid, right?

00:28:57.960 | So my image is always, she's just more porous to the world.

00:29:01.400 | And so if you think about someone who's more porous,

00:29:04.040 | that their pores are literally wider,

00:29:06.280 | a lot more is gonna come in.

00:29:08.320 | And guess what?

00:29:09.400 | A lot more is gonna come out, right?

00:29:11.640 | And she's a kid who, by the way,

00:29:15.520 | you're in a certain area in New York City.

00:29:17.520 | She's like, "I can't be here, the smell."

00:29:19.760 | For me, I'm wired differently.

00:29:22.120 | I was like, "I literally don't smell anything different."

00:29:24.400 | Now, does that mean she's wrong?

00:29:25.840 | No, I actually bet knowing her, she smells things.

00:29:29.320 | And then she lets me know how awful it is

00:29:31.400 | and she can't stand on that corner.

00:29:33.120 | And for me, in that moment, at least,

00:29:35.000 | 'cause we're probably all volatile in different ways,

00:29:37.640 | I look steady as a rock, right?

00:29:40.400 | I have another kid who, yeah, is pretty steady

00:29:44.600 | until he feels like his authority and power is threatened

00:29:49.080 | and then he better watch out, you know?

00:29:51.720 | And so in one moment, someone might see him as,

00:29:54.080 | "Oh, wow, that kid's really volatile."

00:29:55.600 | But in probably 90% of other moments,

00:29:58.840 | he's kind of cool as a cucumber.

00:30:00.720 | So I also think it's important to categorize kids

00:30:03.800 | not as always one way or another,

00:30:06.200 | but we all feel emotions differently.

00:30:08.600 | None of them is wrong or right.

00:30:10.240 | To me, the goal is to not be locked into any one thing.

00:30:15.240 | That, to me, rigidity is always the enemy.

00:30:19.760 | That's what holds us back in adulthood.

00:30:21.760 | If we're always one way.

00:30:23.640 | I can never handle someone cutting me off in traffic

00:30:26.520 | because the emotion takes me over and I have road rage.

00:30:28.800 | Yeah, that's not good.

00:30:29.640 | That's a very rigid, limited way of living life.

00:30:32.320 | But it's probably also limiting to say,

00:30:34.760 | "I've never really gotten riled up about anything."

00:30:36.760 | Forget road rage,

00:30:37.600 | but it's kind of amazing to get riled up once in a while

00:30:40.120 | and to feel really passionately about something

00:30:42.000 | and to feel something enough

00:30:43.320 | that you wanna go do something about it, right?

00:30:45.520 | So there's no morality on it.

00:30:47.800 | I think what's tricky,

00:30:48.800 | I can even say as a parent of three kids,

00:30:51.720 | is each of my kids, I always kind of imagine this,

00:30:54.840 | if I have all these different parts of me,

00:30:56.760 | they each need a different part of me to kind of lead.

00:31:01.040 | Like they almost need different lead parents, right?

00:31:04.240 | So my kid who is my deeply feeling kid,

00:31:07.200 | I know what's so important is that I believe her experience

00:31:10.960 | and I better be ready with certain boundaries

00:31:13.040 | because she feels things so intensely,

00:31:15.600 | especially when she was younger.

00:31:16.600 | I have to step in more often.

00:31:17.560 | There's more difficult behavior, right?

00:31:19.880 | My kid who's really, really steady,

00:31:22.960 | I try to sometimes, even though it's convenient

00:31:25.800 | 'cause he's so easy,

00:31:27.200 | there's definitely a lot going on in there.

00:31:28.760 | And sometimes I wonder,

00:31:30.840 | does he almost feel like all the emotional space

00:31:32.840 | is taken up by his siblings

00:31:35.240 | and the only thing left for him is kind of steady as a rock?

00:31:38.280 | And that can lead to rigidity later in life, right?

00:31:40.720 | So I think these are like moving systems.

00:31:43.320 | So much of how we experience emotions growing up

00:31:47.560 | is also dictated by the system

00:31:49.560 | and kind of the roles our siblings play.

00:31:54.200 | - And so I don't know if that kind of gives you

00:31:56.160 | enough of an answer, but I think-

00:31:58.160 | - That's informative.

00:31:59.440 | - Yeah, I think the thing I'd really want parents to know

00:32:01.280 | is I think we place a lot of morality on it.

00:32:03.120 | And if we're honest with ourselves,

00:32:04.400 | we're probably just comparing our kid to how we do things.

00:32:07.040 | So if you're someone who's pretty steady,

00:32:09.360 | you're like, my kid is crazy.

00:32:10.640 | They're dramatic, right?

00:32:12.000 | If you're someone who's a little more out there,

00:32:13.920 | you're not as bothered by that kid.

00:32:15.600 | And then you have another kid,

00:32:16.440 | you're like, that kid's kind of boring, right?

00:32:18.040 | 'Cause they're so flat.

00:32:19.160 | And so, I mean, I think this is true in couples too.

00:32:21.640 | Whenever we're fighting, we're probably just saying,

00:32:23.160 | why can't you be more like me?

00:32:24.520 | When we're triggered by our kid, we're like,

00:32:25.880 | why can't you be more like me, right?

00:32:27.480 | That's probably what we're always saying to each other,

00:32:29.160 | going back to communication.

00:32:30.800 | But if you take a little different perspective of,

00:32:33.480 | hold on a second,

00:32:34.320 | there's no wrong or right way to feel emotions.

00:32:37.480 | Some behaviors are not allowed,

00:32:39.280 | but all the emotions have information.

00:32:41.680 | And what might my kid need right now instead of,

00:32:45.800 | oh my goodness, is my kid messed up?

00:32:47.560 | Or why is my kid not just a little bit more like me?

00:32:51.480 | - How useful is it to talk to kids about emotions

00:32:54.280 | when they're not happening?

00:32:56.200 | - I mean, to me, this is something like,

00:32:58.520 | I always just say, I always phrase it as emotion talk, right?

00:33:01.680 | Just knowing that emotions live within you,

00:33:06.680 | knowing that there's names for them,

00:33:08.920 | that they're normal, that they make sense.

00:33:12.120 | To me, it's like the ultimate leg up in life.

00:33:14.880 | It's like, it gives your kids such resilience

00:33:17.840 | because we can't beat our emotions.

00:33:21.720 | I feel like we've been trying that for generations.

00:33:24.280 | Like if I just only didn't feel so angry

00:33:26.640 | or so jealous or so sad,

00:33:29.440 | our emotions are so primal in our body.

00:33:32.080 | And I really do believe emotions, they're information.

00:33:35.400 | That's what they are.

00:33:37.160 | Why would we ever want to not get the information

00:33:40.480 | our body is giving us?

00:33:42.240 | And sometimes it's almost dramatic what happens

00:33:44.680 | in an amazing way.

00:33:46.000 | So many people, I think about so many times

00:33:47.800 | I have people in a room for therapy, they start crying.

00:33:50.600 | I'm so sorry.

00:33:51.440 | You're feeling something so intensely

00:33:55.040 | that your body is producing water from your eyes

00:33:58.120 | to get your attention.

00:33:59.160 | Like that must be really important information.

00:34:03.080 | Why are we saying sorry?

00:34:04.440 | - And as far as we know, a uniquely human thing,

00:34:07.800 | I could be wrong about this,

00:34:09.000 | but a colleague of mine at Stanford and psychiatrist

00:34:13.200 | Karl Deisseroth talked about this,

00:34:15.440 | that humans are the only species that we are aware of

00:34:20.280 | that sheds tears for sake of emotion.

00:34:23.320 | - Yeah.

00:34:24.160 | - Other animals, they have lacrimal glands,

00:34:25.760 | they produce water, so to speak, salty water

00:34:28.720 | that comes out of their eye region,

00:34:30.680 | but not as it relates to emotions.

00:34:32.960 | At least we don't think so.

00:34:34.600 | - So that's a great example.

00:34:36.120 | Like I even think about a conversation

00:34:37.360 | I have had with my kids,

00:34:38.520 | and I like to just have these moments here and there.

00:34:41.080 | Whenever I talk about good conversations with my kids,

00:34:43.120 | I think people think I have these 45 minute,

00:34:45.440 | no, they're usually 10 seconds.

00:34:47.280 | I say one thing, my kids say, "Can I have a snack now?"

00:34:49.680 | And I think that's a great conversation

00:34:51.080 | 'cause I know it gets in there.

00:34:52.560 | Do you know that tears have really important information

00:34:57.400 | for us?

00:34:58.240 | I can be like, "What, what'd you say?"

00:35:00.040 | I'm just thinking, so many people think tears are bad.

00:35:02.160 | Tears are kind of amazing.

00:35:03.480 | It's like our body is trying to stop us,

00:35:05.280 | and it's like asking us to pay attention

00:35:07.880 | to something really powerful.

00:35:10.120 | I just think it's kind of an amazing thing our body does.

00:35:13.520 | And my kid goes, "Can I have pretzels?"

00:35:15.440 | "Oh, sure, I'll get you pretzels."

00:35:17.240 | That to me is a win.

00:35:18.240 | I just want to tell everyone, that is a 10 out of 10.

00:35:20.960 | I'm bragging to people about that.

00:35:22.720 | I'm like, "I had the best conversation."

00:35:25.600 | Because I know this is seeping in.

00:35:29.920 | Because in the moment my kid is crying,

00:35:32.960 | you think it's going to be helpful

00:35:34.120 | when my seven-year-old is crying,

00:35:35.720 | "Tears are amazing."

00:35:37.200 | Or like, "F you, Mom."

00:35:39.000 | No one wants to hear that.

00:35:40.080 | - My reflex would be to tell them the biology of tears.

00:35:42.600 | Noma Sobel, who was on the podcast,

00:35:44.120 | told us that tears contain hormones

00:35:45.560 | that signal to other people, pheromones, excuse me,

00:35:48.080 | that literally change the biology of the people around you.

00:35:50.800 | We can actually smell tears.

00:35:52.320 | We don't realize we're doing it.

00:35:53.640 | See, here I go.

00:35:54.480 | So I realize I spend enough time with kids

00:35:57.240 | that if you tell them that, they're like, "Whatever."

00:36:00.120 | - But you know when that's a great conversation?

00:36:02.360 | Around the dinner table.

00:36:03.200 | And again, your kids will roll their eyes.

00:36:04.960 | Kids roll their eyes about everything.

00:36:06.040 | I always think rolling their eyes or stop

00:36:08.240 | is kind of a kid's way of saying,

00:36:10.400 | "There's a lot coming at me on my own person.

00:36:12.920 | "I just need to push it away a little

00:36:15.440 | "so that on my own time and under my own control,

00:36:19.280 | "I can take it in."

00:36:20.480 | And we take eye rolls or whatever it is so personally

00:36:23.000 | that then we end up getting into a power struggle,

00:36:24.360 | "Why are you rolling my eyes?"

00:36:25.480 | And we miss this opportunity.

00:36:27.000 | If we just say nothing then,

00:36:28.080 | our kid is going to take in what we just said.

00:36:29.760 | Just walk away.

00:36:30.800 | Let the whole process happen.

00:36:32.400 | You know, it's kind of like if your boss comes in

00:36:34.360 | and says something like,

00:36:35.880 | "Oh, look, that project really wasn't as good as it,

00:36:38.320 | "you know, could have been.

00:36:39.160 | "And I really need these things done."

00:36:41.000 | And you're like, "Oh."

00:36:42.560 | And then imagine, "You're rolling your eyes at me?"

00:36:44.240 | If your boss just leaves the room,

00:36:46.200 | you probably think,

00:36:47.760 | "Oh, I didn't do that as well as I could.

00:36:50.680 | "I'm going to go work on it."

00:36:51.760 | Right?

00:36:52.600 | So I feel like not taking the bait

00:36:54.520 | is a very important parenting tool.

00:36:56.400 | But I think those moments with our kids

00:36:58.120 | to talk about emotions and to talk about our own,

00:37:02.200 | especially when it comes to struggle, right?

00:37:06.040 | One of the things I think a lot about,

00:37:07.800 | I try to be intentional with my kids,

00:37:09.680 | especially when they're younger.

00:37:10.680 | I just think kids are flooded by their parents' capability.

00:37:15.680 | And it is so hard to learn in environments

00:37:19.960 | where someone's capability is so far beyond your own.

00:37:24.960 | Like, I'm not a good cook,

00:37:26.360 | but if I was really learning to cook,

00:37:29.680 | I would want to learn from someone from here or there,

00:37:31.960 | you know, burn some garlic or messed up the broccoli.

00:37:35.440 | And then it was like,

00:37:36.280 | "Okay, well, I guess I could do this next time."

00:37:38.040 | I'd be like, "Okay."

00:37:39.000 | But if I'm learning to cook

00:37:41.360 | from someone who is whatever celebrity chef,

00:37:44.880 | I don't get it.

00:37:45.720 | Like, that person's like way too far from me.

00:37:47.560 | And I almost feel shame.

00:37:49.440 | So I think about this with our kids

00:37:50.920 | and how this relates to emotions,

00:37:52.400 | where when your kids are younger,

00:37:54.160 | especially if you just think about

00:37:55.200 | the first 10 minutes of their day,

00:37:57.520 | like they're trying to figure out

00:37:58.520 | maybe how to brush their teeth,

00:37:59.560 | how to go to the bathroom,

00:38:00.520 | how to turn on the sink,

00:38:01.440 | how to wash their hands.

00:38:02.320 | They always put their shirt on the wrong way.

00:38:04.440 | They can't get on their socks.

00:38:05.680 | There's so many things.

00:38:06.640 | And you come out, dress perfectly.

00:38:08.880 | And then they're like, "I can't get on my socks."

00:38:10.320 | And you go like this.

00:38:11.160 | Okay, one, two.

00:38:12.200 | And kind of in those moments,

00:38:14.320 | I always think that I'm just kind of saying to my kid,

00:38:16.440 | "I can do everything easily."

00:38:17.680 | And they don't know our history.

00:38:19.720 | They don't know.

00:38:21.160 | We struggled to put on socks for five years too.

00:38:23.680 | I put on my shirt backward, you know, until college.

00:38:26.040 | They don't know that.

00:38:27.280 | And so I think again, in these calm moments,

00:38:29.600 | you have this opportunity to say something like,

00:38:33.320 | "I cannot finish this crossword puzzle."

00:38:37.240 | Or like, I love New York Times games, right?

00:38:39.560 | And it's so fun with my kids now that they're older,

00:38:42.360 | but my connections was really hard today.

00:38:44.720 | I just, I really struggled with it.

00:38:46.240 | And then I was like, "Oh, I can't do it.

00:38:47.600 | I can't do it."

00:38:48.440 | And then I took a deep breath and I tried it a little more.

00:38:51.880 | And, you know, maybe I said, "And I did it."

00:38:53.760 | Or, "I didn't do it."

00:38:54.600 | Whatever it is.

00:38:56.000 | And it gives my kid, first of all,

00:38:57.400 | it gives my kid an opportunity to just notice

00:38:59.720 | that I struggled too.

00:39:01.160 | It gives my kid, again, kind of an arc and a story of,

00:39:04.600 | "Oh, someone I admire so much."

00:39:06.800 | Every kid admires their parents.

00:39:08.600 | They've had hard times.

00:39:09.720 | They still have hard times.

00:39:11.200 | They work through things.

00:39:12.280 | They burn garlic.

00:39:13.320 | They can kind of talk themselves through it.

00:39:16.480 | That is such a more powerful kind of lesson

00:39:19.760 | in emotion regulation

00:39:21.360 | than teaching your kid kind of directly.

00:39:25.560 | - It also seems that here,

00:39:28.360 | we're not defining the age of the kids,

00:39:29.880 | but that if one presents themselves as perfect

00:39:33.480 | or close to it in any kind of relationship,

00:39:35.640 | work, romantic, parenting, et cetera,

00:39:39.200 | sooner or later, you're going to fall from grace

00:39:42.200 | because they're either going to be looking for the mistake

00:39:45.480 | or the moment you make a mistake,

00:39:46.480 | it's going to be this fracture in the picture

00:39:48.280 | that people had of you.

00:39:50.320 | And I have to say,

00:39:52.520 | and I think some people might get irritated

00:39:54.560 | or even dare I say triggered

00:39:57.240 | by the language I'm about to use,

00:39:58.800 | but I feel like the real like ninja move in all of this

00:40:03.800 | is to acknowledge that there are power dynamics

00:40:07.600 | between parent and child,

00:40:08.800 | but then to try and dissolve the power dynamics.

00:40:11.520 | And I say this in the context

00:40:12.720 | of having run a lab for a long time,

00:40:14.080 | which is very different than raising small children,

00:40:15.920 | but you have people who are coming into your laboratory,

00:40:18.520 | they are, if they're your graduate student or postdoc,

00:40:21.360 | they're staking their whole career

00:40:22.800 | on your ability to teach and mentor.

00:40:25.560 | And a lot is at stake.

00:40:26.720 | Nothing is for certain.

00:40:27.760 | They might not get a job,

00:40:28.800 | their papers might not work out,

00:40:30.880 | and so there's just so much tension around it.

00:40:33.760 | And so as a PI, as a principal investigator in our lab,

00:40:37.480 | I remember feeling that pressure of like,

00:40:39.320 | it's got to work out.

00:40:40.760 | And one of the best things that ever happened to me

00:40:43.960 | as a graduate student was that my first paper

00:40:45.920 | took forever to get accepted.

00:40:48.400 | And we almost got in and then I didn't get in,

00:40:50.440 | and then finally it got in,

00:40:51.640 | such that every paper after that felt like a breeze

00:40:55.040 | because it took so damn long the first time.

00:40:57.240 | And I got to see that my advisor

00:40:58.960 | couldn't like make magic happen.

00:41:02.640 | And fortunately, that's the way the scientific process

00:41:05.160 | is supposed to work.

00:41:06.240 | And I think about this in the context of parenting,

00:41:08.280 | like if you're seen as invincible,

00:41:11.120 | you know, we hear about this,

00:41:11.960 | like people say, I thought my dad was Superman.

00:41:14.280 | I thought my mom was Superwoman, you know,

00:41:16.880 | and then, but you can imagine how disappointing it must be

00:41:20.480 | when they discover anything about a lack of capacity

00:41:23.680 | or a break in emotional stability, et cetera.

00:41:27.440 | So how does one present themselves

00:41:29.360 | as both powerful in the positive sense of the word,

00:41:33.200 | such a thorny word,

00:41:34.840 | but powerful in the positive sense of the word,

00:41:36.840 | but human and vulnerable to making mistakes

00:41:40.680 | in a way that you don't give up the essential,

00:41:44.600 | let's just call it what it is,

00:41:45.880 | a power dynamic with your kids

00:41:47.120 | so that the kid then doesn't feel they have to parent you.

00:41:49.480 | - I love this topic because it's so interesting.

00:41:51.800 | Right now, it's kind of review season at Good Inside

00:41:54.840 | 'cause I also am the CEO of a company.

00:41:56.840 | And to me, the things I talk about with parenting

00:41:59.840 | and my kids, and for other people parenting their kids,

00:42:03.440 | they are the exact same principles, exact as leading a team.

00:42:08.240 | And so when I think about review season

00:42:10.560 | and the way we get feedback and the, right,

00:42:12.640 | and back and forth, it brings us all together

00:42:15.640 | and I'll explain.

00:42:17.240 | The other day, I said to my kids,

00:42:19.280 | I love resolutions.

00:42:21.720 | I actually do love resolutions, right?

00:42:23.640 | 'Cause I love just the opportunity to say,

00:42:26.080 | what is one small thing?

00:42:27.720 | I'm like, I value,

00:42:29.600 | and I'm gonna hold myself accountable to do.

00:42:31.920 | What I said to my kids was,

00:42:34.080 | I want you to come up with one thing,

00:42:36.960 | just one thing for now.

00:42:38.280 | And it has to be something like manageable and real

00:42:41.760 | that I could do that would really make me a better mom to you

00:42:46.480 | - You asked your kids this.

00:42:47.320 | - I asked my kids this.

00:42:48.160 | I actually asked my kids this relatively frequently.

00:42:50.560 | It's like a review, right?

00:42:52.160 | Because it's something I do at work all the time.

00:42:54.600 | And what I say at work is,

00:42:56.120 | 'cause often my direct reports say nothing.

00:42:58.600 | I said, I just wanna tell you something.

00:43:00.800 | I need one thing from you by the end of the day.

00:43:03.480 | I need it.

00:43:05.560 | Because like, I know, I know I can get hot.

00:43:09.000 | I know I can get a little reactive, right?

00:43:12.080 | I know I'm always go, go, go.

00:43:13.880 | And there probably is a moment that, you know,

00:43:15.680 | I need to pause.

00:43:16.680 | I know, I know I have a lot of issues.

00:43:18.840 | So if you don't tell me one thing,

00:43:20.520 | I don't trust you as much.

00:43:22.440 | So here's what happened with my kids.

00:43:23.640 | At that point, it was only two of them.

00:43:25.080 | It just happened the other day.

00:43:26.560 | My son says, my seven-year-old son,

00:43:29.500 | sometimes when you're trying to get some work done at home,

00:43:34.080 | and I wanna get your attention for something,

00:43:35.920 | this is what you do, mom.

00:43:37.920 | One minute, one minute, one minute,

00:43:41.040 | and then you still don't give me attention.

00:43:42.680 | - He's clocking, he's clocking.

00:43:44.560 | - I'd rather you tell me five minutes

00:43:47.800 | and then give me your full attention.

00:43:49.800 | That's literally what, and I was just like,

00:43:53.360 | that is a really good suggestion.

00:43:55.720 | And I really needed to hear that.

00:43:57.360 | I can do that.

00:43:59.400 | This was a couple of days ago.

00:44:01.840 | Okay, I have to admit, two days ago,

00:44:05.400 | he was trying to show me something.

00:44:08.920 | And he just goes, you're doing it.

00:44:11.120 | You're not really giving me your attention.

00:44:13.480 | And I said, you're right.

00:44:14.920 | Thank you.

00:44:15.920 | Change is hard.

00:44:17.320 | I actually do need about two minutes.

00:44:20.080 | Is that okay?

00:44:20.920 | And then I'll put my computer down

00:44:22.480 | 'cause I'll sometimes look at him

00:44:23.400 | and like kind of look at, you know?

00:44:24.600 | And he goes, okay.

00:44:25.720 | It was kind of, it was so beautiful.

00:44:27.720 | My daughter said, at night, she goes,

00:44:32.040 | it's so interesting when you give people this opportunity,

00:44:33.960 | how generous they can be with you.

00:44:36.000 | I think it's been true at work and home.

00:44:37.560 | My daughter goes, I know when it's my bedtime at night,

00:44:40.520 | I always want to do one or two extra things.

00:44:42.400 | I know.

00:44:43.320 | I always have to get my water.

00:44:44.920 | Mom, it's just how I am.

00:44:46.360 | That's what she said.

00:44:47.640 | And you get this rushing voice and you go, come on,

00:44:51.280 | it's bedtime.

00:44:52.200 | And that's like the last voice I hear before bed.

00:44:56.440 | And I really don't like that voice.

00:44:58.520 | And so can you just know that I always need to do those one

00:45:01.120 | or two extra things and not use that voice?

00:45:03.560 | And again, I said, you know what?

00:45:07.800 | I wouldn't want to hear that as the last voice.

00:45:10.240 | You know, and I think at night, especially,

00:45:11.600 | it's a little digression.

00:45:13.200 | I always feel like I'm in a rush.

00:45:16.080 | I don't know, an extra two minutes with my kids.

00:45:18.520 | Like, my kids are getting older.

00:45:19.640 | They're not even in my house for that much longer.

00:45:21.640 | I just have to remind myself, I'm not in a rush.

00:45:23.640 | Like, this is the best use of my time.

00:45:25.160 | So I said, and that one I've been really good at.

00:45:27.880 | And so how do we show our kids that we're fallible?

00:45:32.360 | One way is actually like asking for feedback,

00:45:36.640 | especially when you have older kids.

00:45:38.320 | When you have a teenager, this is the number one thing

00:45:42.160 | that can change things around.

00:45:43.720 | You know what I'm thinking about?

00:45:45.720 | It's hard to be a teen.

00:45:47.440 | And I'm definitely not a perfect parent of a teen.

00:45:51.080 | I'm sure you have a long list.

00:45:53.480 | But for right now, can you name one thing that I could do

00:45:58.240 | that would make me a better parent to you?

00:46:00.080 | And I want to follow this through,

00:46:01.040 | 'cause what a lot of teens will do,

00:46:02.080 | or parents will say,

00:46:03.120 | my teenager tells me something ridiculous.

00:46:06.960 | They'll say, well, you know how you make me

00:46:09.680 | charge my phone at nine or 10 p.m. out of the room?

00:46:12.800 | You could let me sleep with my phone,

00:46:14.200 | which may be apparent, like, I'm just not gonna do that.

00:46:15.880 | Or they'll say, you know what you could do?

00:46:17.600 | You could give me $1,000 every week for an allowance, right?

00:46:20.840 | And so parents will say, my kid doesn't take it seriously.

00:46:23.200 | This is where, like to me,

00:46:24.400 | one of the most important life skills,

00:46:26.480 | parenting, management, friendships, it doesn't matter,

00:46:29.520 | is differentiating someone's words on the surface

00:46:33.640 | from their needs or their feelings or their fears,

00:46:37.080 | whatever it is, underneath,

00:46:39.120 | and not responding to the words,

00:46:41.280 | but kind of cutting under them.

00:46:43.280 | Let's even say I can said the phone thing.

00:46:45.680 | What would be so great about having your phone?

00:46:49.400 | Just help me understand it.

00:46:50.600 | I know in my head I'm never gonna do it,

00:46:52.120 | but we don't realize,

00:46:54.040 | just 'cause we're not gonna do something someone asks,

00:46:56.120 | it doesn't mean we don't owe that person the right

00:46:58.400 | to try to understand why they want it, right?

00:47:01.280 | So I might just ask questions.

00:47:02.440 | I might probably end with, look,

00:47:03.640 | I actually hear what you're saying.

00:47:04.720 | All of your friends are on Instagram until midnight.

00:47:07.800 | It sounds like you legitimately do miss out

00:47:09.880 | on conversations by the time you get to school.

00:47:11.680 | You feel out of them.

00:47:12.600 | Like, I'm not even joking.

00:47:14.240 | I feel like if I was your age,

00:47:15.280 | I'd be like, that's like basically the worst thing ever.

00:47:17.000 | I believe you.

00:47:17.840 | Having your phone after X time,

00:47:20.520 | it's just one of my non-negotiables.

00:47:22.600 | It's actually just 'cause I love you so much

00:47:24.400 | that I feel like my job is to protect you.

00:47:26.720 | I wonder if there is some other way

00:47:28.240 | that we can figure that out.

00:47:29.440 | Or my kid says $1,000, I might say,

00:47:31.600 | what would you do with $1,000?

00:47:33.080 | Oh, you'd go, oh, you wanna go to more concerts.

00:47:34.720 | Oh, your friends all get more allowance.

00:47:36.120 | Tell me more.

00:47:36.960 | No matter what your kid says to you, there's information.

00:47:39.480 | So I think feedback is one.

00:47:42.200 | I think repair is another way.

00:47:45.000 | Repair is the most important relationship strategy

00:47:48.000 | to get good at.

00:47:49.400 | And I just hope everyone hears the duality in that

00:47:52.360 | and realizes what that means,

00:47:53.880 | because if you're gonna get good at repair,

00:47:57.280 | you have to mess up.

00:47:59.000 | The only way to repair is to mess up.

00:48:02.160 | And so if I'm telling you, get good at repair,

00:48:05.040 | I am telling you, you have to accomplish step one,

00:48:07.960 | which is yelling at your kid.

00:48:09.800 | You have to, and you're gonna do it anyway.

00:48:11.640 | I do it.

00:48:12.680 | But if you then tell yourself, wait,

00:48:14.440 | I'm getting good at repair.

00:48:15.760 | Step one is messing up.

00:48:17.680 | I crushed it.

00:48:18.520 | Amazing, I'm half the way there.

00:48:20.000 | Then when you repair, which is when you take ownership,

00:48:22.720 | hey, I'm sorry I yelled, just like you.

00:48:26.760 | I'm managing my emotions.

00:48:28.120 | Emotions are really tricky.

00:48:29.880 | Emotions are really hard.

00:48:31.400 | And do you know what?

00:48:32.960 | Even though you're gonna have a leg up on this

00:48:34.880 | compared to most people when they're adults,

00:48:36.600 | 'cause you're learning how to regulate emotions,

00:48:38.600 | you're still gonna be practicing that when you're my age.

00:48:41.560 | That is my responsibility to work on.

00:48:43.840 | It's not your fault.

00:48:45.480 | And I love you.

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00:51:38.640 | I love, love, love this thing about asking for a request.

00:51:44.680 | It's different than asking for feedback,

00:51:47.120 | which could quickly lead to a list of all the things

00:51:49.680 | that one does wrong as opposed to a request

00:51:52.140 | for how one could do better.

00:51:53.760 | So I think there's an important distinction there.

00:51:55.760 | And then it seems that the question that the parent

00:51:58.360 | or who knows, the boss or whatever,

00:52:00.600 | maybe it's with a romantic partner,

00:52:02.160 | needs to ask themselves is,

00:52:03.860 | what is this request really about?

00:52:08.520 | Like what's underneath it?

00:52:10.220 | I'm just paraphrasing essentially what you said.

00:52:12.920 | And what's it really about?

00:52:13.880 | Is it a request for more autonomy,

00:52:16.740 | for more social connection with other people?

00:52:18.680 | And then when it starts to realize it,

00:52:20.680 | certainly in this example that you gave

00:52:23.480 | of a child asking for more time with their phone

00:52:26.400 | late at night,

00:52:27.240 | is that it actually has nothing to do

00:52:28.680 | with your relationship to them.

00:52:30.040 | It's really about their relationship to their friends.

00:52:31.920 | - Yeah, could be.

00:52:32.760 | - And the fact that they might feel

00:52:34.160 | as if they're missing out.

00:52:35.480 | - Yeah.

00:52:36.320 | - And that leads me to another question,

00:52:38.600 | which is what if you as the parent, partner, boss, et cetera,

00:52:44.600 | keep your phone close to you until midnight?

00:52:47.220 | And they know that.

00:52:48.260 | - Yeah.

00:52:49.100 | - So one of the worst things that I believe anyone can say

00:52:51.980 | is do as I say, not as I do.

00:52:54.060 | It's just such a blatantly arrogant stance

00:52:57.700 | of you're supposed to do what I say because I say so,

00:53:01.660 | but I'm not gonna do it because I don't want to.

00:53:04.340 | And yet there are times like in parent-child relationships

00:53:07.140 | or boss-employee relationships

00:53:09.020 | where you're telling somebody to do something

00:53:11.860 | and you yourself are not going to do it

00:53:13.900 | or no longer do it or choose not to do it.

00:53:15.880 | And in reality, you don't have to.

00:53:19.040 | - Yeah.

00:53:19.880 | - And maybe there's a good reason why you don't

00:53:21.080 | or don't have to.

00:53:21.920 | - Yeah.

00:53:22.760 | - That's the nature of, that's why I use these words,

00:53:25.520 | power dynamics.

00:53:26.360 | - Power, yes.

00:53:27.180 | - Which everyone hears and goes, oh boy, here we go.

00:53:29.120 | But it is an issue of power dynamics.

00:53:30.920 | You have more power than the kid.

00:53:33.560 | - Yes.

00:53:34.400 | - So what you're doing is you're giving the kid power

00:53:36.080 | to express where they want more agency.

00:53:39.040 | I like the word maybe agency more than power.

00:53:41.160 | - Yeah.

00:53:43.120 | - Did you grant your son the right to use his phone

00:53:46.820 | later into the evening?

00:53:47.720 | - My son, my son has--

00:53:48.560 | - Not to pry into your personal--

00:53:49.840 | - My son did not ask me that.

00:53:50.680 | - Oh, okay, sorry.

00:53:51.500 | - And he knows that our phone rules are non-negotiable.

00:53:53.400 | - No, I didn't mean to pry into your family dynamics, but--

00:53:55.540 | - No, but that kid, if that's a rule,

00:53:57.160 | you would never give it to them.

00:53:58.440 | But I think so many times, and then I'll go back to power,

00:54:01.340 | we shouldn't be afraid to learn more.

00:54:05.920 | I actually just think that's what it is.

00:54:08.100 | Our kid says, oh, my friends get this.

00:54:10.280 | That's not true.

00:54:11.120 | Why don't you just learn more?

00:54:11.940 | They do, it's like learning more about what someone says

00:54:16.640 | doesn't mean you ever have to change your boundary.

00:54:19.560 | Most of conflict is about a lack of understanding anyway.

00:54:22.240 | When you learn more, you're trying to understand.

00:54:25.360 | You understand your kid, understand someone wants to raise

00:54:28.680 | and you think it's ridiculous.

00:54:29.840 | You can learn more.

00:54:31.560 | Tell me what's been going on.

00:54:32.560 | What have you been doing?

00:54:34.320 | Learning more about someone's position

00:54:36.480 | does not weaken your position.

00:54:39.040 | And I think that's really, really important

00:54:40.720 | in any form of leadership.

00:54:42.980 | Now, in terms of the power dynamics,

00:54:45.620 | there is something about the word power that like, you know.

00:54:47.540 | - Is that weird?

00:54:48.380 | - Yeah, I mean, I think the way I think about it

00:54:51.100 | and what we do at Good Insight a lot

00:54:52.340 | in terms of our leadership and parenting style,

00:54:54.660 | I don't use the word power,

00:54:56.240 | but I think it's about embodying your authority.

00:54:59.580 | Parents have authority.

00:55:01.460 | Pilots have authority.

00:55:03.820 | Bosses have authority because they're the ones

00:55:06.300 | kind of who have the job of setting up the whole system

00:55:09.740 | for success.

00:55:10.800 | That's their job, right?

00:55:12.920 | My job isn't to make my kid happy.

00:55:15.240 | My job is to help create the conditions for my kid

00:55:19.000 | to be like a real functioning, confident adult.

00:55:22.280 | That's what I believe, right?

00:55:23.440 | A pilot's job is definitely not to keep passengers happy.

00:55:25.880 | It's to get everyone safely on the ground.

00:55:28.040 | A boss's job is not to keep everyone happy.

00:55:30.440 | It's to set up the conditions for health and success

00:55:32.640 | of the business, right?

00:55:34.120 | Now, if you know that's your job,

00:55:35.080 | it's no one else's job but the CEO.

00:55:37.260 | I mean, to some degree, all the management,

00:55:38.600 | but that is their job.

00:55:40.460 | And so there's a difference where if the CEO believes

00:55:43.660 | a job needs to be done a certain way,

00:55:46.380 | it's not that they have power.

00:55:47.860 | It's just their role involves having that authority.

00:55:51.260 | And if someone else disagrees,

00:55:52.700 | it's up to them to say you can keep the job or not.

00:55:54.900 | It's just you have different roles.

00:55:57.780 | So, and I actually think owning that very outright,

00:56:00.900 | it's actually something I recently said at work

00:56:03.780 | in a review around something I really wanted

00:56:06.700 | and kind of owned, like in my role as a CEO,

00:56:09.940 | like that is under my role to decide this is important.

00:56:15.040 | And now we have to figure it out.

00:56:16.120 | Let's see, I would love some input

00:56:17.600 | on how we're gonna get this done.

00:56:19.160 | Same thing for a kid.

00:56:20.820 | One of the lines I said over and over and over

00:56:25.560 | to my kid when they were younger,

00:56:27.120 | and I see so many good inside parents

00:56:28.920 | tell me that their kids reflect this back to them later,

00:56:31.400 | is my number one job is to keep you safe.

00:56:33.560 | So what does that mean?

00:56:35.540 | It kind of relates to power.

00:56:36.860 | It can mean, why am I not letting my kid,

00:56:40.920 | I don't know, jump up and down on our kitchen counter?

00:56:43.780 | It's not 'cause I'm pissed that my kid isn't listening.

00:56:46.300 | I'm not letting them jump up and down

00:56:48.220 | on my kitchen counter where there's a light

00:56:49.580 | above their head because my number one job

00:56:51.180 | is to keep my kid safe.

00:56:54.860 | Is that power?

00:56:55.700 | I mean, I guess, I think it's authority.

00:56:57.020 | How would I embody that authority?

00:56:58.600 | I would say, it looks hard for you to get down.

00:57:00.780 | I'm about to pick you up and put you on the floor

00:57:03.500 | because I have authority, right?

00:57:06.960 | We get to this phone discussion, let's say,

00:57:09.580 | and I really do believe that the phone

00:57:11.740 | has to be charged out of the room at a certain time.

00:57:14.380 | I'm gonna understand, I'm gonna understand,

00:57:15.740 | I'm gonna listen, hopefully I'm connected to my kid

00:57:18.220 | and they feel respected by me in a million ways,

00:57:20.420 | and it might lead to me saying,

00:57:22.140 | look, my number one job still is to keep you safe,

00:57:26.220 | and that really means making decisions

00:57:27.620 | that I really believe are good for you,

00:57:29.660 | short-term and long-term, even if you're upset with me.

00:57:32.640 | This is one of those times.

00:57:35.060 | And so, I love you, this might be a point of conflict,

00:57:38.540 | I know we're gonna get through this,

00:57:40.480 | and that is my role as a parent,

00:57:43.480 | and it comes from a place of wanting to protect you.

00:57:46.520 | And I think when you embody your authority in that way,

00:57:50.220 | kids never say thank you, and they will roll their eyes,

00:57:53.580 | and kids always feel loved and protected.

00:57:56.780 | They really do.

00:57:57.700 | I hear it from my kids.

00:57:59.100 | Maybe this is so true.

00:58:02.240 | Sometimes things happen with my kids,

00:58:03.460 | and I'm like, no one's gonna even believe this,

00:58:04.840 | but I was walking with my seven-year-old the other day,

00:58:07.820 | and I said, what does it mean to be a good parent?

00:58:10.580 | What does it really mean?

00:58:11.420 | I'm curious.

00:58:12.380 | He really thought it means you're kind of strict,

00:58:17.380 | and I said, what do you mean strict?

00:58:21.020 | He goes, you have certain rules that you think matter.

00:58:26.020 | And he goes, but it also means

00:58:29.720 | you also have to be loving and fun.

00:58:32.360 | And my heart hurts hearing myself say this

00:58:35.600 | in a good way hurting.

00:58:37.400 | They know.

00:58:38.280 | I think kids know, and maybe he says that

00:58:39.800 | 'cause that's what we are, but I think kids know,

00:58:41.600 | and I can't even tell you how many kids I used to work with,

00:58:45.000 | and teens especially, the pain of their parents

00:58:49.640 | not embodying their authority was so clear.

00:58:54.520 | They knew that they shouldn't be out at a certain time.

00:58:58.760 | They knew that they were hanging out with kids

00:59:00.600 | who were like bad news, and their parents had no idea,

00:59:03.700 | and they felt unanchored.

00:59:06.100 | Like they really, really knew,

00:59:07.740 | not that their parents weren't exerting power.

00:59:09.660 | That word isn't, their parents weren't embodying

00:59:11.580 | their appropriate authority to protect their kids.

00:59:15.100 | - I had something come to mind,

00:59:17.060 | which is not a phrase that I've ever used before

00:59:19.820 | or heard before, but what comes to mind

00:59:23.100 | is kind of statements of stance.

00:59:26.740 | - Yes.

00:59:27.580 | - And I feel like statements of stance

00:59:29.600 | in parent-child relationships, families, workplace,

00:59:32.640 | romantic relationships, et cetera,

00:59:34.080 | are great when they're about actions

00:59:36.680 | or about sort of overriding themes.

00:59:39.180 | Like no matter what, I'm trying to keep you safe.

00:59:43.000 | I might not get everything right,

00:59:44.400 | but like that is like non-negotiable internally,

00:59:47.760 | and I'm gonna try and make it non-negotiable externally.

00:59:50.520 | Like it's a statement of stance about actions.

00:59:53.560 | Or, you know, keeping you healthy and safe

00:59:56.580 | is my number one priority.

00:59:58.060 | Those are facts.

00:59:58.940 | Those are things that one can really say and believe,

01:00:01.180 | and you know, until the end of time,

01:00:03.700 | be trying to incorporate into one's behavior.

01:00:06.900 | But I feel like statements of stance

01:00:08.540 | about emotions are very dangerous.

01:00:11.180 | Like we don't yell in this house.

01:00:14.900 | You know, it's okay to cry, right?

01:00:20.220 | There's always a caveat.

01:00:21.380 | Of course it's okay to cry, right?

01:00:23.460 | But there are times when crying is less appropriate.

01:00:25.460 | There's times when yelling might be appropriate.

01:00:29.920 | There's times when emotions need to be expressed

01:00:33.080 | or not expressed in a particular way,

01:00:35.500 | because look, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that,

01:00:39.200 | you know, the kid tantruming in a public environment

01:00:43.680 | is an embarrassing thing for them,

01:00:45.800 | for their parent, for people around,

01:00:47.360 | and it's not the end of the world, right?

01:00:48.860 | That's a tantrum, for goodness sake, right?

01:00:50.840 | Like people will survive.

01:00:52.780 | But I feel like statements of stance about emotions

01:00:55.800 | kind of hold us to this standard

01:00:57.180 | that we'll never be able to meet.

01:00:59.080 | But that statements of stance about action

01:01:01.360 | are, you know, until we fail and, you know, hope we don't,

01:01:07.100 | we can say things like, you know,

01:01:11.000 | my job is always to keep you safe.

01:01:12.640 | I'm always going to try and make the best decision

01:01:14.920 | for you and for your sister, for instance.

01:01:18.200 | But I think that many people,

01:01:20.220 | I'm not just speaking from my own experience,

01:01:21.780 | but in talking to friends and others

01:01:24.580 | that they grew up in homes

01:01:25.840 | where like there were these philosophies,

01:01:27.420 | these like statements of stance.

01:01:29.380 | And the moment that things didn't match

01:01:30.900 | that statement of stance,

01:01:32.460 | like the whole concept of what parents and children

01:01:35.240 | are supposed to be about

01:01:36.080 | just kind of started to dissolve.

01:01:38.300 | And it creates that underlying fear,

01:01:39.980 | like, do they even really know what they're doing?

01:01:42.660 | Or maybe they don't know what they're doing,

01:01:45.100 | but maybe they're trying.

01:01:46.220 | So in any case, it's just something

01:01:48.460 | that maybe we could talk about for a moment.

01:01:50.820 | - I have some reactions to that.

01:01:51.880 | I think, I mean,

01:01:52.720 | I kind of think you're talking about values and principles.

01:01:55.500 | Right?

01:01:56.340 | And so I think there are, in my house, to be honest,

01:01:59.660 | it's not like we have some wall of like,

01:02:01.060 | these are our family values.

01:02:02.260 | That's, I mean-

01:02:03.100 | - I've seen those in people's homes.

01:02:03.940 | - Yeah, that's not-

01:02:05.380 | - Yeah, on the refrigerator.

01:02:06.220 | - Not organized enough to do that.

01:02:08.140 | But if I thought about a couple that come to mind,

01:02:10.780 | like my job is to keep my kids safe.

01:02:13.060 | By the way, safe does not mean

01:02:15.180 | they're never in a situation without risk.

01:02:17.980 | That's not what I mean, you know,

01:02:19.180 | but in general-

01:02:20.020 | - That's its own form of danger.

01:02:21.340 | - Exactly.

01:02:22.180 | The minimization of risk is also not safe, right?

01:02:25.300 | So, but in general, my job is to keep you safe.

01:02:27.060 | I'm not gonna let you do things that, you know,

01:02:29.300 | endanger yourself or others.

01:02:30.660 | So that's one.

01:02:31.980 | Another principle I think about is,

01:02:33.840 | I will always tell you the truth,

01:02:37.140 | even if it's uncomfortable.

01:02:38.980 | Like you can always count on me for that.

01:02:40.900 | We call that kind of,

01:02:41.860 | I call that truth over comfort, right?

01:02:44.020 | So if my kid says to me,

01:02:45.340 | "How are babies made?"

01:02:46.500 | That value is useful, right?

01:02:49.660 | Another thing is like all feelings are allowed.

01:02:53.460 | Not all behaviors are okay, right?

01:02:55.420 | Stuff like that.

01:02:56.260 | - What about we don't swear in this house?

01:02:58.300 | - So what I was about to say-

01:02:59.140 | - And then you're on the phone and then you screw up

01:03:01.300 | and then the kid goes, "You swore."

01:03:02.900 | - To me, what's very different

01:03:05.060 | is these kind of rigidities around behavior.

01:03:09.060 | We don't swear.

01:03:09.900 | Swearing is a behavior.

01:03:11.020 | We don't cry in public.

01:03:12.340 | Behavior.

01:03:13.180 | We don't tantrum here.

01:03:14.020 | That's a behavior.

01:03:15.100 | Behaviors all the time are a manifestation

01:03:18.700 | of feelings that overpower skills.

01:03:22.340 | So saying we don't do certain behaviors,

01:03:24.380 | to me, it doesn't even make logical sense.

01:03:26.300 | Well, what if I'm in a situation

01:03:28.060 | where I have a really intense emotion

01:03:29.820 | and don't have the skill to manage it?

01:03:31.540 | We don't, the behavior's gonna happen.

01:03:34.000 | And then I feel like a bad person.

01:03:36.300 | That's very different than values around intention.

01:03:39.300 | I want to be truthful with my kids,

01:03:41.860 | even if things are uncomfortable.

01:03:43.540 | I might fumble around with the words, right?

01:03:46.180 | I might even sometimes lie

01:03:47.460 | because I didn't do that value in action.

01:03:49.540 | But what I can come back to is,

01:03:50.540 | okay, nobody lives their values 100% of the time.

01:03:54.980 | So I think we're talking about actually something core

01:03:57.900 | to what we think about a good inside,

01:03:59.260 | which is I'm a good person with values

01:04:02.940 | who is totally imperfect

01:04:04.980 | and sometimes acts in ways I'm not proud of.

01:04:07.500 | Both are true.

01:04:08.420 | When families have values that are very behavior-based,

01:04:12.060 | what ends up happening in the kids

01:04:13.420 | is they start to equate certain behaviors with morality.

01:04:17.540 | These are good behaviors that make me loved in my family.

01:04:21.220 | And these are bad behaviors

01:04:23.300 | that kind of make me feel like

01:04:24.300 | I'm not the right part of my family.

01:04:26.280 | And they even make me wonder, am I lovable?

01:04:28.980 | Am I good inside after all, right?

01:04:31.140 | Am I worthy?

01:04:32.380 | That's not good.

01:04:33.420 | Because whenever we tie behavior to identity, that's shame.

01:04:37.760 | And we've tried to motivate kids

01:04:40.540 | with shame for hundreds and hundreds of years,

01:04:43.100 | and it does not work and causes a lot of problems.

01:04:46.180 | I think another one, which is interesting,

01:04:47.460 | especially as my kids get older,

01:04:48.540 | I said this to my teen recently,

01:04:50.580 | is that this is really tricky.

01:04:52.700 | One of my jobs, as always,

01:04:54.540 | has been to create guidelines and rules with you.

01:04:58.180 | It's always gonna be kind of collaborative.

01:04:59.620 | Some, because of my authority, will be directive

01:05:01.980 | that I believe are gonna keep you safe.

01:05:04.300 | And I think this really relates to a phone.

01:05:05.540 | I wanna tell you another part of my job

01:05:07.140 | that might sound contradictory,

01:05:09.260 | but I actually think we just need to hold them both at once.

01:05:11.580 | Another part of my job is to be there for you

01:05:14.720 | when you inevitably go against those guidelines.

01:05:18.080 | And I want you to know that.

01:05:20.620 | We have rules around what can and cannot be done online.

01:05:23.740 | And, and I'll say this here,

01:05:25.380 | and if you do kind of become part

01:05:29.100 | of a really inappropriate text conversation,

01:05:32.180 | if there is bullying,

01:05:33.780 | if you do come across some images online

01:05:36.100 | that make you feel really uncomfortable

01:05:37.500 | and you're like, "I shouldn't have seen that,"

01:05:39.740 | you're not getting in trouble with me.

01:05:41.260 | I'm not gonna throw you a party.

01:05:43.580 | I will be there for you to help you through those moments.

01:05:46.340 | Those things sound contradictory,

01:05:47.940 | and in our family, we know two things can be true,

01:05:50.340 | and those are both true, right?

01:05:51.900 | To me, that's a really important thing

01:05:54.860 | for a teenager to know.

01:05:56.020 | - Let's talk about guilt and shame.

01:05:58.920 | - Yes.

01:05:59.760 | - I've heard some kind of catchphrase-y stuff,

01:06:01.540 | not from you, but like,

01:06:02.660 | "Oh, you know, guilt is about the thing you did,

01:06:05.300 | and shame is a feeling about who we are,

01:06:07.400 | and, you know, while I'm not against

01:06:09.980 | those sort of 1990s, early 2000s kind of psychology-isms,

01:06:14.980 | I feel like they're not very useful,

01:06:17.780 | in the same way that hearing that there's a gap

01:06:20.180 | between stimulus and response,

01:06:21.660 | and if you identify that gap, well, then, goodness,

01:06:23.660 | you're gonna be the kind of person

01:06:24.740 | that can feel stressed but not be reactive.

01:06:27.020 | You're gonna be responsive, not reactive.

01:06:29.100 | That's just a bunch of words that doesn't,

01:06:32.020 | here, I'm a biologist, so I'll just say,

01:06:33.460 | doesn't take into account the fact

01:06:34.740 | that the biology of stress changes your perception of time,

01:06:39.060 | and a whole bunch of other things

01:06:40.180 | that basically make that gap between stimulus and response

01:06:43.580 | much, much smaller, and I think once people understand that,

01:06:47.020 | they go, "Oh, so like the kitchen refrigerator magnet,

01:06:51.220 | or the poster on the wall that says, you know,

01:06:53.180 | like there's a gap between stimulus and response,

01:06:55.580 | it was supposed to save me, but it didn't?"

01:06:57.100 | Of course not.

01:06:58.140 | Like, we're just in different states of mind

01:06:59.880 | at different times. - Yes.

01:07:00.720 | - So, how do you define, no pressure here,

01:07:04.880 | but how do you define guilt versus shame?

01:07:08.920 | - Great.

01:07:09.760 | - And what about guilt and shame?

01:07:12.960 | - Great, two of my favorite topics.

01:07:14.340 | I have a couple different ways of defining things.

01:07:16.320 | I'm like you, to me, I like defining things

01:07:19.720 | in ways that are very concrete and very usable, that's all,

01:07:22.980 | and if there's multiple ways of doing that, that's great.

01:07:25.000 | So, the way I think about guilt,

01:07:27.040 | and this will probably set us off in a direction

01:07:28.600 | about what is not guilt also,

01:07:30.920 | is guilt is a feeling I have

01:07:33.080 | when I act out of alignment with my values.

01:07:37.040 | And in that way, guilt is a really useful feeling,

01:07:41.800 | real useful, because it makes me reflect on,

01:07:45.120 | "Wait, I didn't act in line with my values, I wonder why?

01:07:49.400 | What would I have had to do differently?

01:07:50.720 | What got in my way?

01:07:52.160 | Wow, I'm so glad I have that information from my body

01:07:54.480 | to have this deeply uncomfortable feeling

01:07:56.740 | to set in that process," right?

01:07:58.280 | So, if I yell at my kid, I'm gonna feel guilty, right?

01:08:02.680 | I think about a time when my kid told me,

01:08:05.240 | "You know, I lied to you.

01:08:07.280 | I did take that eraser from that kid in school,

01:08:10.000 | and I feel really guilty," and I said,

01:08:12.000 | "First of all, I'm so glad you told me that.

01:08:15.480 | I'm so glad you're feeling guilty.

01:08:16.960 | That's the right way to feel.

01:08:18.800 | Now, there must have been something so hard

01:08:20.720 | about seeing something so shiny and fun that you don't have.

01:08:24.060 | I totally get that," and you're right.

01:08:26.720 | That's not in your values to take it.

01:08:28.640 | So, that's a useful feeling.

01:08:30.280 | That feeling's gonna help you not do something like that.

01:08:32.640 | Again, let's figure out what you can do,

01:08:34.740 | not just to say, "Sorry, this is what parents miss."

01:08:37.200 | You know what's gonna happen another time?

01:08:39.160 | They're gonna see something else pretty cool.

01:08:41.280 | Someone's cubby, and you know what most people think?

01:08:44.800 | "I'm gonna take that."

01:08:45.620 | You're gonna have the thought again.

01:08:46.720 | I would, too.

01:08:47.920 | What can you do the next time you have that thought, right?

01:08:49.960 | All of this comes because of guilt, useful feeling.

01:08:53.080 | Guilt is a feeling you have

01:08:54.960 | when you act out of alignment with your values.

01:08:57.120 | Now, to me, guilt is one of the most misunderstood feelings

01:09:01.400 | because what you hear all the time,

01:09:03.300 | and you'll hear how much it kind of conflicts

01:09:05.420 | with this definition, is something like this.

01:09:07.680 | "I haven't seen my friends in years.

01:09:11.800 | There's finally a dinner,

01:09:13.880 | but it would require me not to put my kid down to sleep."

01:09:18.280 | You know, and I'm talking to someone, I'd say,

01:09:20.920 | "Okay, well, I'm guessing you're not leaving your kid alone."

01:09:23.400 | You know, again, my husband or my mom,

01:09:25.320 | someone who's a totally safe adult.

01:09:27.080 | "But, Becky, I told my kid, and she was clinging to me,

01:09:32.560 | like, 'No, Mommy, I needed to be you, I needed to be you,

01:09:34.840 | and so I'm not going to dinner.'"

01:09:37.560 | Do you know what I'm gonna say, Andrew?

01:09:38.400 | "Because I feel so guilty."

01:09:41.960 | This is, right, "Ugh, someone asked me

01:09:44.440 | to be in the PTA meeting, and I'm so busy.

01:09:46.860 | I can't, but I can't do it because I feel so guilty."

01:09:51.640 | Okay, again, I'm just curious.

01:09:55.760 | I say, "Well, it sounds like you really want

01:09:57.400 | to go to dinner with your friends."

01:09:59.200 | She's like, "Oh, I do.

01:10:00.360 | All I do is parent these days.

01:10:01.640 | I literally haven't seen these friends in years.

01:10:03.000 | They're in town."

01:10:03.840 | And I said, "Tell me about your friendships.

01:10:05.200 | That's when you value my..."

01:10:06.680 | Yes, I know that I'm kind of more than just someone

01:10:10.880 | who puts down my kid for bed, and I love doing that,

01:10:12.800 | but this matters, too.

01:10:13.840 | So I said, "This is really interesting.

01:10:15.040 | You really value your friendships.

01:10:17.680 | Your life right now feels out of balance

01:10:21.320 | in that your friendships,

01:10:22.800 | that part of your burner of your stove is really low.

01:10:25.160 | Okay, and you're not going because you feel guilty.

01:10:27.800 | I just want to share an idea.

01:10:28.680 | Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment

01:10:30.720 | with your values.

01:10:31.880 | It seems like going to dinner would be in line

01:10:35.440 | with your values."

01:10:36.400 | And almost, it's like, "Yeah, that's true."

01:10:37.920 | So what is this feeling?

01:10:39.760 | And here's what I think the feeling is.

01:10:42.760 | I call it not guilt just 'cause I haven't figured out

01:10:45.240 | a more sophisticated term,

01:10:46.300 | but here's what I think is happening.

01:10:48.120 | A lot of us, especially women,

01:10:51.440 | when we were growing up,

01:10:53.320 | we learned to notice everyone's feelings around us,

01:10:57.920 | and we learned that our value, really,

01:11:01.720 | and our worth, really,

01:11:02.920 | and we were kind of best and good girls

01:11:07.320 | when we took care of everyone else's feelings

01:11:11.760 | except for our own.

01:11:13.720 | I think so many young girls, especially,

01:11:16.200 | become expert at what people need of them

01:11:21.200 | by becoming distant from what they need for themselves.

01:11:25.640 | The picture I get in my mind is sort of like

01:11:27.040 | having antennae cast in every direction,

01:11:30.280 | except perhaps at the exclusion of paying attention

01:11:34.000 | to the antennae that are inward.

01:11:36.600 | Exactly.

01:11:37.440 | And we are, you know, attentional resources are finite.

01:11:40.440 | I mean, we just don't have the capacity to,

01:11:42.640 | like, respond to other people's emotions

01:11:45.680 | and feel at the same time to the same degree

01:11:47.580 | that we would if we just concentrated

01:11:49.040 | on theirs or our emotions.

01:11:49.880 | I mean, that's just a fact of how humans work.

01:11:51.760 | Yeah, and kids are oriented by attachment.

01:11:53.740 | They have to learn with their families,

01:11:55.560 | how do I become the most lovable, safest version of myself?

01:11:58.840 | So I have a friend who, it's true, I remember her.

01:12:01.560 | Even in middle school, I can't come.

01:12:03.900 | My dad's traveling, and my mom really needs me

01:12:06.280 | to stay home and watch a movie with her, right?

01:12:08.400 | And I know this mom well.

01:12:09.640 | It's like, "Oh, you don't love me, you don't," right?

01:12:12.000 | I mean, this was, so she became expert

01:12:14.520 | at always noticing other people's emotions,

01:12:18.240 | and not only noticing them, taking the emotions from them,

01:12:22.560 | kind of like taking them into their body

01:12:25.240 | and almost metabolizing them for them.

01:12:28.360 | That's not guilt.

01:12:31.360 | That is taking someone else's emotions

01:12:35.780 | and taking them into your body

01:12:37.320 | at the expense of taking care of your own needs.

01:12:41.400 | And so I have a visual for this,

01:12:42.580 | 'cause I think it's really powerful,

01:12:43.760 | where let's say it's the situation where a mom is saying,

01:12:46.640 | "I really wanna go out to dinner, but I feel so guilty."

01:12:49.000 | First thing's just powerful to say, "That is not guilt.

01:12:51.360 | "It is something else, and it is real, and it is powerful,

01:12:53.400 | "but it is not guilt."

01:12:54.880 | What is happening?

01:12:57.160 | I'm on one side of a tennis court, like me and you, Andrew,

01:12:59.800 | but let's say it's a tennis court,

01:13:01.080 | and you're on the other side, or even,

01:13:02.840 | and in between, instead of a net, it's like a glass table.

01:13:06.440 | Over here, I am here in my desire to go out with my friends

01:13:11.280 | because I do value my friendships.

01:13:12.960 | Okay, over there is you're upset about it.

01:13:17.040 | And let's say instead you're my daughter.

01:13:18.640 | You're like, "No, no, don't go.

01:13:21.300 | "No one else can put me to bed."

01:13:22.720 | That is definitely hard to deal with,

01:13:24.000 | but that is your daughter's feelings.

01:13:26.960 | Those are not your feelings.

01:13:28.060 | Those are your daughter's feelings.

01:13:29.280 | And some of us/a lot of us have developed this tendency

01:13:32.960 | where we're on this court, and all of a sudden,

01:13:34.800 | all those feelings from your side

01:13:36.680 | somehow go through that wall,

01:13:38.520 | and they come to your side, and you call it guilt.

01:13:41.680 | It is not guilt.

01:13:43.440 | And to me, one of the most liberating things,

01:13:45.280 | and this actually relates to empathy, as I always say,

01:13:48.920 | is to give that feeling back to its rightful owner.

01:13:51.460 | Because what that means is if I really give it back,

01:13:55.000 | now I have a boundary.

01:13:57.400 | That's my kid's feeling.

01:13:58.840 | That's not mine.

01:14:00.520 | And I can now actually empathize.

01:14:03.160 | People said, "No, I was empathizing.

01:14:04.400 | "I wasn't going out."

01:14:05.600 | No, no, no, no, no.

01:14:06.920 | That's not empathy.

01:14:08.360 | You weren't going out with your friends

01:14:09.840 | because you couldn't handle the distress in your body.

01:14:12.000 | You just made your daughter's feelings your own.

01:14:14.360 | You just engaged in something almost selfish.

01:14:16.460 | This has nothing to do with your daughter.

01:14:18.160 | In those situations,

01:14:19.040 | that's why we say weird things to our four-year-old.

01:14:21.000 | Like, "Don't you want mommy to have friends?"

01:14:23.160 | I feel like four-year-old's like,

01:14:24.000 | "Why are you asking me that question?"

01:14:25.840 | It's like a pilot being like,

01:14:26.680 | "Don't you want me to make an emergency landing?"

01:14:28.860 | Like, if you need to make an emergency landing,

01:14:31.680 | don't ask me for permission.

01:14:33.840 | Because once I give it back to my daughter, I can do this.

01:14:36.320 | I can say, "You really wish I would put you to bed tonight.

01:14:39.540 | "You're right, it feels so different when grandma does it.

01:14:42.500 | "Oh, it does.

01:14:44.200 | "I'm going out.

01:14:45.580 | "It's okay if you're upset.

01:14:48.000 | "I'll be back and I'll kiss you

01:14:49.840 | "and I'll see you in the morning."

01:14:51.600 | And then this next part's so important.

01:14:53.380 | When you walk out,

01:14:54.220 | I don't want any person having any illusion

01:14:57.240 | that the daughter's gonna be like,

01:14:58.900 | "Yes, you go, girl.

01:15:01.860 | "No, she is going to scream.

01:15:04.700 | "That's okay."

01:15:05.680 | Going back to the boundary.

01:15:07.600 | You're allowed to take care of your needs

01:15:10.400 | and other people are allowed to be inconvenienced

01:15:14.940 | and upset by it.

01:15:16.560 | It doesn't mean your needs are wrong.

01:15:19.440 | It doesn't mean their feelings are wrong

01:15:21.560 | and it definitely doesn't mean you feel guilty.

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01:18:21.540 | - Wow.

01:18:24.100 | I say wow because I think the lens

01:18:27.380 | that you're looking at guilt through

01:18:28.780 | and the way you're defining it is so very different

01:18:31.060 | than the way it's been discussed ever.

01:18:32.760 | And I think this is a super, super important topic.

01:18:36.260 | So I'd like to lathe into it a little bit more.

01:18:39.160 | In some ways, the way that I think

01:18:44.820 | many people experience guilt,

01:18:46.900 | at least according to your definition,

01:18:48.060 | which, by the way, I love,

01:18:50.540 | it's when we act out of alignment with our values.

01:18:54.060 | Versus feeling pressure.

01:18:56.420 | Like, I think about, you know, I mean,

01:18:59.180 | Lord knows I don't have the best reputation

01:19:00.780 | as having a short text response latency.

01:19:04.340 | It's variable.

01:19:06.320 | Sometimes I'm quick on the draw,

01:19:07.660 | and other times I'm like, oh goodness,

01:19:09.200 | it'll be days or weeks.

01:19:10.220 | I mean, over the holidays, I was spooling through it.

01:19:11.940 | I would respond to people like a week later.

01:19:14.400 | And, you know, I do my best,

01:19:17.180 | but I do often feel quote-unquote guilty

01:19:22.500 | about not being as responsive in text to a number of people,

01:19:25.820 | because I care about them.

01:19:27.380 | I value them.

01:19:29.060 | But I get overwhelmed by text messaging very easily,

01:19:31.980 | to the point where I have to put my phones out of the room

01:19:34.180 | when I work, et cetera.

01:19:36.260 | So the way I experience a bunch of text messages coming in

01:19:40.660 | is as pressure, that then I feel guilty.

01:19:44.220 | I'm not trying to make this about me, but--

01:19:45.540 | - No, I want to.

01:19:46.380 | Let's go into this.

01:19:47.200 | I have a lot to say.

01:19:48.040 | - I feel quote-unquote guilty, but do I really feel,

01:19:50.260 | but what's interesting is, you know,

01:19:51.580 | I believe in cognitive dissonance.

01:19:53.220 | And then what I notice is that

01:19:54.820 | then my brain tries to bridge that gap.

01:19:57.220 | I come up with these like justifications with like,

01:19:59.660 | well, when I text people

01:20:00.780 | and they don't respond for like two weeks,

01:20:02.020 | I don't get upset, which is true,

01:20:03.420 | unless it's in a particular sort of category of circumstances.

01:20:06.480 | So how come the way they view this whole dynamic

01:20:09.940 | is not the same as the way I view this dynamic?

01:20:11.820 | Okay, maybe this is a more male-centric view

01:20:13.740 | as opposed to feeling porous,

01:20:15.300 | like I feel they're upset.

01:20:17.420 | But I will say, you know, in fairness to all the chromosomes

01:20:20.740 | in their arrangements, I do feel bad.

01:20:23.760 | - Yeah.

01:20:24.600 | - Like it sucks.

01:20:25.420 | Like I love these people and they're reaching out

01:20:27.300 | to say whatever, happy new year or something.

01:20:29.580 | And I'm feeling pressure as opposed to feeling

01:20:33.940 | how wonderful it is to have people in my life.

01:20:35.620 | - So here, this is such a beautiful example

01:20:37.940 | where I'd ask myself, or I'd ask you to ask yourself,

01:20:40.460 | okay, you already named one of your values,

01:20:43.980 | which is interesting.

01:20:45.180 | I really value my relationships.

01:20:46.620 | You said that.

01:20:47.460 | Okay, that's one value.

01:20:49.580 | And I think this is, I'm gonna ask this question.

01:20:51.380 | Do you value quick responses all the time

01:20:56.180 | from you on text message?

01:20:57.780 | Is that a value of yours?

01:20:59.020 | - From me or to me?

01:21:00.340 | - From you.

01:21:01.180 | Do I value always responding to people on text right away?

01:21:04.700 | - The truth is, if I'm really honest,

01:21:07.180 | I hate shallow exchange of any kind,

01:21:11.700 | except maybe a fist bump to somebody

01:21:14.100 | you just kind of feel some kinship with on the street

01:21:15.980 | and you have that connect

01:21:16.820 | and you just give them the fist bump, great.

01:21:19.220 | But I like more in-depth, lengthy connection.

01:21:22.700 | - Like three-hour long conversations?

01:21:24.060 | - Three-hour long conversations or drop,

01:21:26.620 | a friend came by the other day for New Year's.

01:21:29.180 | He was on my list of people that,

01:21:30.540 | and yes, I made a list of people that I want to

01:21:32.700 | deepen my friendship with in the new year.

01:21:34.860 | He came by, we had a two-hour lunch.

01:21:37.300 | We chatted and I feel like it was awesome

01:21:41.220 | and worth a million single line text messages.

01:21:44.180 | And I'm also the kind of person where like,

01:21:45.820 | I'm good to not see him for a while,

01:21:47.940 | not because I'm tired of him,

01:21:49.100 | but because I also have other friends and things to do.

01:21:51.820 | So I'm more of a depth, not breadth kind of guy.

01:21:54.820 | - This is, to me, this is such a powerful process.

01:21:57.140 | And then after this, I kind of want to link it back

01:21:58.740 | to how I've actually told my kids

01:22:00.940 | about why I do go out to dinner with friends, right?

01:22:05.060 | So I value deep relationships.

01:22:06.940 | I value relationships.

01:22:07.780 | I value deep relationship.

01:22:09.220 | And if I'm honest with myself,

01:22:11.540 | responding to someone right away,

01:22:12.940 | that's actually not my value.

01:22:14.260 | But again, we can hold multiple things at once.

01:22:16.060 | That doesn't mean I don't care about those people.

01:22:18.020 | And I just laid out all my values.

01:22:20.580 | What I think is so powerful as a not guilt diffuser

01:22:24.940 | is naming this directly to the people.

01:22:27.980 | So it doesn't have to be on text,

01:22:29.620 | but you're seeing person X and you know,

01:22:30.980 | I'm never that good.

01:22:32.020 | I just want to tell you, I really value our friendship.

01:22:34.780 | I really value these times we have together.

01:22:37.380 | Something I just also want to get off my chest

01:22:39.020 | is going back and forth quickly on text.

01:22:42.020 | That's not something that's easy for me that I do very often.

01:22:46.060 | And so you might text me and it might take me a while.

01:22:49.220 | And I just wanted to name that to you, right?

01:22:51.740 | Now look, someone else always has the right to say,

01:22:54.460 | well, that's interesting.

01:22:55.340 | That doesn't work for me.

01:22:56.180 | One of my top values with friends

01:22:58.220 | is someone who's always getting back and forth.

01:23:00.780 | To me, that's actually great, great.

01:23:02.020 | Now we know, okay, what are we going to do about that?

01:23:03.580 | That's fine.

01:23:04.420 | You know where someone stands.

01:23:05.540 | And the reason I relate this to the situation

01:23:08.140 | with going to dinner is I remember early on

01:23:11.900 | when my daughter said,

01:23:12.860 | why do you have to go to dinner with friends?

01:23:14.380 | Or why do you and dad, this is it.

01:23:16.420 | Why do you and dad go to dinner without us?

01:23:18.300 | I know the couple you're going out with,

01:23:19.980 | you both have kids.

01:23:20.900 | Why can't you bring us, right?

01:23:22.700 | And this is where we say we feel guilt, but we don't.

01:23:25.620 | 'Cause I'm like, time out.

01:23:27.300 | She's feeling this feeling, not me.

01:23:30.580 | And also I don't need her permission or approval.

01:23:33.940 | That's the real parentified thing.

01:23:35.580 | We like go to our seven-year-old and we're like,

01:23:37.100 | don't you want me to have adult conversations?

01:23:39.780 | Again, not-

01:23:40.620 | - It's not an atypical response.

01:23:42.020 | I've heard parents do that.

01:23:42.980 | - Say that.

01:23:43.820 | - Don't you want me to have a social life?

01:23:45.180 | - But you know what it is?

01:23:46.500 | Is asking your kid to do your job for you.

01:23:50.660 | Again, can you imagine a pilot say,

01:23:53.420 | do you think we should make an emergency landing?

01:23:55.940 | You'd be, that's how a kid feels when they're asked that.

01:23:58.900 | They're like, why are you asking me that?

01:24:01.660 | Here's what I said to my daughter in that situation.

01:24:03.820 | I really did.

01:24:04.900 | I want to tell you something.

01:24:06.740 | I love being your mom.

01:24:07.900 | I really do.

01:24:08.940 | It's one of the most important things in my life.

01:24:12.380 | I also really like being married to dad.

01:24:16.220 | And I really like the times we have

01:24:18.340 | when it's just us and other adults.

01:24:20.620 | That's really important.

01:24:22.100 | I remember saying this,

01:24:22.940 | maybe I was really trying to double down.

01:24:24.540 | We actually, we had that before you guys were here.

01:24:28.620 | - And they're like, what?

01:24:29.460 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:24:31.060 | And so one of the reasons, I want to be honest with you.

01:24:34.140 | Why do we go to dinner without you?

01:24:36.620 | It's not so much we go to dinner without you.

01:24:37.940 | We think of it as going to dinner with each other

01:24:40.700 | and just adults.

01:24:41.700 | Is that something we really enjoy?

01:24:43.500 | It's really important to us.

01:24:45.020 | It's a really important part of us.

01:24:47.260 | And that's why, like being really vocal about your values,

01:24:52.260 | as opposed to looking to your child unconsciously

01:24:58.780 | to give you permission to have those values.

01:25:01.540 | If you want to use power, that's a power move.

01:25:05.260 | And it's amazing.

01:25:06.380 | This is true in any time in life.

01:25:08.660 | The more you can locate someone,

01:25:11.340 | the more you respect their boundaries.

01:25:13.540 | I use that word a lot.

01:25:14.620 | I know it's like locate.

01:25:16.260 | I'm sure you know people in your life,

01:25:17.580 | like, can I locate them?

01:25:18.700 | You kind of know who they are.

01:25:19.620 | You know what they value and you respect them, right?

01:25:24.340 | When you can't locate someone,

01:25:26.180 | you feel very uneasy around them.

01:25:29.380 | You're kind of like, where are you?

01:25:30.460 | Who are you?

01:25:31.300 | What do you stand for?

01:25:32.140 | And as you can see with my daughter,

01:25:34.140 | I wasn't saying something mean.

01:25:36.620 | I was saying something true.

01:25:38.660 | And so I think with the friendships

01:25:40.140 | and when you say, is this guilty?

01:25:41.580 | It's like, well, maybe my step and my action

01:25:44.300 | is just actually being honest with this person.

01:25:46.780 | I'm not very good at responding right away.

01:25:48.420 | I want to let you know,

01:25:49.260 | I deeply care about our friendship.

01:25:51.460 | I'm not very good at responding

01:25:53.020 | to kind of small talk over text.

01:25:55.940 | And I just wanted to let you know that

01:25:57.380 | so you didn't misinterpret it.

01:25:58.660 | Like, I wonder what would happen.

01:25:59.860 | I wonder if people would kind of respond really positively.

01:26:03.180 | - I love it.

01:26:05.140 | And I can't help but recall when I was a kid,

01:26:08.940 | after dinner, my dad would sometimes take a walk by himself.

01:26:12.740 | Now, granted he's a physicist

01:26:14.500 | and he's a theoretical physicist.

01:26:16.420 | So he's like, all his experiments were in his head

01:26:18.220 | and he did work on paper too.

01:26:19.660 | But so he would take these walks

01:26:22.340 | and occasionally I'd see him coming back from these walks

01:26:24.460 | and he'd be smoking a cigar,

01:26:26.300 | something he doesn't do anymore, fortunately.

01:26:28.420 | I'm grateful that he's very robust.

01:26:30.020 | He was actually a guest on the podcast recently,

01:26:32.100 | talked about science and life, et cetera.

01:26:35.180 | And one of the things that I remember thinking

01:26:38.100 | and still to this day think and feel

01:26:40.420 | is it's kind of awesome how he takes this walk

01:26:43.500 | and he looked like so happy

01:26:45.580 | with the cigar and his thoughts and he'd walk.

01:26:48.140 | And I wanted to be on those walks with him.

01:26:50.140 | He was very, very busy.

01:26:51.260 | In fact, I wanted a lot more time from him than I got.

01:26:53.860 | It's kind of interesting 'cause now it's oftentimes

01:26:55.900 | that I'm the busier one, the table's turned, kids.

01:26:59.620 | But in all seriousness, I didn't think of it as self-care,

01:27:03.460 | but it was so clear that that was his time.

01:27:06.260 | That was absolutely his time.

01:27:08.540 | And I knew when I could and should join for things

01:27:13.540 | and when I didn't.

01:27:14.380 | And so when you say the more you can locate someone,

01:27:16.980 | the more you respect their values,

01:27:18.860 | I feel like bells go off.

01:27:20.980 | - Yeah. - It's like exactly that.

01:27:22.140 | And there are other examples of my mom, et cetera.

01:27:24.020 | But it's kind of interesting when we see somebody,

01:27:27.740 | adult or child, like really in their element

01:27:30.900 | of their thing. - Yes.

01:27:32.820 | - It's almost like we love them for it and through it.

01:27:36.820 | And it fills us, I think, with a healthy sense of safety.

01:27:40.620 | Like they're right there.

01:27:41.820 | Kind of like the pilot flying the plane really well.

01:27:43.460 | - Yeah, that's right. - We're like,

01:27:44.300 | "Actually, we don't really wanna know about the pilot.

01:27:45.980 | "I wanna hear the thing at the beginning.

01:27:47.420 | "We're about ready to take off."

01:27:48.940 | I actually don't like it when we're landing

01:27:50.300 | and they say, "We'll be on the ground in just a few moments."

01:27:52.620 | I'm like, "We're at 10,000 feet.

01:27:53.780 | "Can we make it a little bit longer than that?"

01:27:55.740 | But you get the point,

01:27:57.900 | which is that I don't wanna hear from the pilot.

01:28:00.700 | I just want the pilot to fly the plane.

01:28:02.460 | You want the pilot to do their job.

01:28:04.620 | And again, I think I have so many pilot metaphors

01:28:07.580 | around sturdy leadership.

01:28:08.620 | And I think it really is such a metaphor

01:28:09.940 | for how we teach people the skills they need to parent.

01:28:13.820 | Because again, no one becomes a pilot overnight.

01:28:16.740 | No one becomes a CEO overnight. - Sure hope not.

01:28:19.120 | - No one becomes a lawyer overnight

01:28:20.380 | or a professional basketball player.

01:28:22.500 | I think we actually laud CEOs these days who say,

01:28:25.620 | "I don't know how to do leadership as well as I'd want to.

01:28:27.600 | "I'm getting executive coach."

01:28:29.160 | You all wanna work for that person, right?

01:28:31.820 | The amazing athletes in the world get amazing coaches

01:28:35.700 | and they go to amazing training camps

01:28:37.300 | because they're amazing, right?

01:28:38.620 | And so I just, somehow with parenting,

01:28:42.100 | it's like the last area where people think

01:28:44.060 | I should become an amazing parent overnight.

01:28:46.060 | I shouldn't have to invest in skills or education.

01:28:49.180 | Even people who invest in skills and education

01:28:50.860 | for every other area of their life

01:28:52.220 | that they probably care about less.

01:28:53.500 | There's so much shame we've internalized

01:28:55.700 | that we should be able to do it naturally.

01:28:57.980 | - And you do become a parent overnight.

01:28:59.740 | - You become a parent overnight, you do.

01:29:01.700 | - Yes.

01:29:02.540 | - I'll remember my graduate advisor who had two kids

01:29:03.940 | while I was working in the lab saying

01:29:06.100 | that there were all these books back then about pregnancy.

01:29:10.220 | And she was like, "It's wild.

01:29:11.140 | "There are all these things of what you should eat

01:29:12.420 | "and shouldn't eat and how you should,

01:29:13.660 | "you and your partner and how you should prepare

01:29:15.140 | "for the birth and all this."

01:29:16.380 | And then at the hospital, they're like, "Here."

01:29:18.980 | And you're like, "Ah."

01:29:20.580 | Now granted that was in the early 2000s.

01:29:22.740 | - That's still what it is.

01:29:23.780 | And they're like, "What do you need?"

01:29:24.700 | And they go, "You need a car seat to leave the hospital."

01:29:26.540 | Which by the way, you definitely need, that's all?

01:29:30.220 | Just a car seat?

01:29:31.500 | How am I supposed to manage this?

01:29:32.980 | Because the thing I want parents to know,

01:29:35.180 | 'cause again, there's just so much shame

01:29:36.740 | and maybe we should talk about shame, right?

01:29:38.860 | Is the only thing that comes naturally

01:29:42.380 | when it comes to parenting is how you were parented.

01:29:45.820 | That comes naturally, that lives in your bones,

01:29:47.620 | that lives in your circuits.

01:29:49.060 | And there might be some people who say,

01:29:51.620 | "Amazing, I have the greatest privilege in the world

01:29:53.700 | "then what will come naturally is exactly what I value

01:29:57.000 | "and what I wanna do."

01:29:58.540 | I would say more often, people would say some version

01:30:01.300 | of definitely not what I wanna do

01:30:03.020 | or parts I'll take, parts I wanna do differently.

01:30:06.780 | And to me, it's kind of like

01:30:07.740 | if you were brought up speaking English

01:30:10.220 | and you really wanna speak Mandarin

01:30:11.980 | or you wanna speak Mandarin half the time to your kid

01:30:14.300 | and someone said, "Are you gonna learn Mandarin naturally?"

01:30:17.260 | I feel like someone would say like,

01:30:18.740 | "How does one learn Mandarin naturally?"

01:30:20.980 | You would, I don't know, you'd probably sign up

01:30:23.580 | for Duolingo, you'd find an app or something or a course

01:30:27.700 | and you'd then practice and practice

01:30:29.980 | and you'd be able to make progress

01:30:33.300 | because you actually learned something new.

01:30:36.620 | And so I just think big picture,

01:30:39.300 | like parents are, they're so under-equipped

01:30:42.860 | and set up to feel, and this is I think has to do with shame,

01:30:47.020 | that when my kids are struggling or when I'm yelling a lot,

01:30:50.740 | it means something is wrong with me

01:30:52.580 | or something is wrong with my kid.

01:30:54.300 | I feel like these days in almost every area,

01:30:57.620 | if a CEO is saying, "I feel like I'm struggling,

01:31:01.500 | "is it my fault or my employee's fault?"

01:31:04.140 | They probably say, "I don't know,

01:31:06.100 | "there's probably people around.

01:31:06.980 | "Who can help me?

01:31:07.820 | "Who can teach me?

01:31:08.660 | "Why do I keep yelling?"

01:31:09.940 | And same thing with almost every other field.

01:31:12.540 | And to me more than like if there's any legacy

01:31:15.820 | I get to leave in this world,

01:31:17.500 | it's not even the approach itself,

01:31:19.340 | even though I think our approach to parenting

01:31:20.860 | is very different, I just want parents to know

01:31:24.260 | like there is no shame in investing in learning

01:31:28.020 | and growing in parenting.

01:31:30.860 | And to look at that,

01:31:31.700 | like they probably look at every other area of their life.

01:31:34.700 | - I assure you that your legacy extends far beyond that,

01:31:38.500 | but includes it as well.

01:31:39.620 | You've had a tremendous impact and continue to.

01:31:41.700 | I mean, it wasn't long ago that the power dynamics

01:31:46.260 | of parent-child relationships where you do what I say

01:31:48.900 | and I'm the parent, you're the kid

01:31:50.060 | and like that kind of thing.

01:31:51.100 | And I grew up in a different era, I'm 49 now,

01:31:53.060 | and I've been wanting to say I'm 49 now

01:31:54.860 | so that I can actually say something

01:31:56.300 | with having had some experience

01:31:58.140 | when things were truly very different.

01:31:59.940 | They were just so different.

01:32:01.060 | - Yeah.

01:32:01.900 | - It was like you took what you got and you worked with it

01:32:03.620 | and things are so different thanks to your part

01:32:08.020 | in all of this.

01:32:08.860 | And one thing I do wanna return to

01:32:11.540 | because I realized I took us off track with it

01:32:15.540 | is this idea of kids, but perhaps adults as well feeling

01:32:22.300 | or thinking they feel someone else's feelings,

01:32:24.300 | taking that on, this difference between real guilt

01:32:28.220 | and gosh, it's really hard to come up with a word for it.

01:32:30.900 | At one moment I thought, well, maybe it's faux guilt,

01:32:32.660 | but no, you're not pretending,

01:32:33.780 | you're actually feeling something which feels like guilt,

01:32:37.620 | smells like guilt, tastes like guilt.

01:32:38.460 | - Someone said codependence.

01:32:40.260 | I don't know that much about that word,

01:32:41.900 | but something like that.

01:32:43.020 | - Well, it's a whole landscape.

01:32:45.380 | - Yes, exactly.

01:32:46.380 | - It's a whole landscape.

01:32:48.140 | But one practice that I'm familiar with

01:32:52.140 | that I know exists in a couple of different realms

01:32:55.020 | of let's call it modern psychology tools

01:32:57.860 | is this idea of creating a frame separation.

01:33:01.060 | So like after you come together with somebody

01:33:03.060 | to say to like do therapy or something,

01:33:06.140 | or you've had sort of an emotional bind or entanglement,

01:33:10.460 | doesn't have to be negative,

01:33:12.260 | that one way that you can learn over time

01:33:15.740 | to differentiate their needs and wants

01:33:18.620 | from your needs and wants is this idea of in your head,

01:33:22.140 | I know it sounds kind of corny,

01:33:23.140 | but there's a clear neuroscientific basis for this,

01:33:25.260 | at least to my understanding,

01:33:27.220 | of in your head you say, for instance,

01:33:28.540 | like if we had just done this,

01:33:29.380 | like we had some resonance around something,

01:33:30.660 | maybe an argument, okay?

01:33:32.020 | Like Dr. Becky and I got into a fight

01:33:34.460 | that in order to really be able to move away from that

01:33:37.140 | and see it clearly, how much of that was yours?

01:33:39.020 | How much of that was mine?

01:33:40.500 | There's this idea that you tell yourself, okay,

01:33:42.740 | what are five ways in which you and I

01:33:44.060 | are clearly distinct entities?

01:33:46.380 | So you say, and I know this folks might chuckle at this

01:33:48.540 | but you say like, okay, I'm a man, you're a woman.

01:33:50.740 | I live in California.

01:33:52.500 | Dr. Becky lives in New York.

01:33:54.020 | Could even make it like first person,

01:33:56.460 | you say like a third person rather,

01:33:57.860 | you could say I, Andrew Huberman,

01:33:58.980 | am wearing a black shirt and a black over shirt

01:34:02.660 | and Dr. Becky is wearing black and white.

01:34:05.340 | Okay, so some people might think like,

01:34:07.740 | what's the use of that?

01:34:08.820 | But to me as a neuroscientist,

01:34:10.540 | whoever came up with that and it wasn't me

01:34:12.580 | is nothing short of brilliant

01:34:14.420 | because the brain organizes emotions

01:34:16.700 | in these broader schemas of physical objects

01:34:19.140 | and physical distance and distance in time.

01:34:22.380 | And that's the way that we can differentiate

01:34:24.020 | between ourselves and everything around us.

01:34:25.740 | And there's a whole discussion to be had about this.

01:34:27.420 | But so it's something that I've been playing

01:34:31.300 | with a little bit because I don't claim

01:34:33.620 | to be this ultra empath or anything,

01:34:37.580 | but I think it's clear that sometimes

01:34:42.580 | we take in our thoughts and feelings

01:34:46.460 | about what other people are feeling,

01:34:47.580 | sometimes accurate, sometimes not.

01:34:48.900 | And it can become very difficult.

01:34:51.140 | Whether or not someone's a, one of these,

01:34:53.260 | I guess you call it deeply feeling,

01:34:55.300 | deeply feeling kids or not.

01:34:58.740 | I mean, anytime you get into an emotional resonance,

01:35:00.900 | good or bad, I think it's we're porous.

01:35:04.940 | We're porous and that's part of

01:35:06.100 | what makes humans so beautiful.

01:35:07.460 | But I've found that practice to be very useful.

01:35:10.740 | Even if it's just in my own head,

01:35:11.940 | like they're over there and I'm over here,

01:35:14.340 | but not even necessarily pushing off them,

01:35:16.660 | but thinking like, oh, like I'm me and you're you.

01:35:19.660 | And there are a bunch of ways

01:35:21.140 | in which we differ in time and space.

01:35:22.860 | And I think the nervous system comes to understand that

01:35:27.260 | as a felt thing, as opposed to just a statement,

01:35:30.980 | like, hey, like you own your emotions, I'll own mine.

01:35:33.540 | That's just a statement.

01:35:34.780 | Is this any of this?

01:35:36.780 | - I've never heard of that, but I love that.

01:35:38.060 | And it is in parallel, I think,

01:35:40.380 | with so many of the things I teach parents.

01:35:42.300 | So even the idea of locating someone,

01:35:45.140 | to me, like my version of people in my life

01:35:47.620 | that I know and love,

01:35:48.500 | even if I don't agree with anything they say

01:35:50.620 | that I can locate.

01:35:51.940 | They're like an egg with a shell.

01:35:54.940 | They have a shell.

01:35:56.140 | There's like a, there's a boundary.

01:35:57.540 | We're really talking about boundaries.

01:36:00.060 | We all have different levels of porousness

01:36:02.420 | to the external world.

01:36:04.180 | And I think if you know,

01:36:05.460 | and there's pros and cons of both,

01:36:07.180 | like I really mean this,

01:36:08.740 | I am not terribly porous to other people's experiences.

01:36:12.940 | I really have solid boundaries.

01:36:14.980 | There are definitely moments in my closest relationships

01:36:17.340 | because where people will say to me,

01:36:19.260 | okay, like, I know these are my feelings and not yours.

01:36:22.140 | Like, we're in a close relationship.

01:36:23.820 | Like, can you be here a little bit more with me?

01:36:26.060 | And that is true.

01:36:26.940 | Like, that is what I want to do, right?

01:36:29.860 | And sometimes it can be a little distancing, right?

01:36:32.540 | And a little separate.

01:36:33.980 | People on the other end of that spectrum,

01:36:37.220 | if they know I'm very porous, I tend to,

01:36:39.580 | to me, one of the ways of also thinking about it,

01:36:41.260 | I think I gaze in before I gaze out.

01:36:44.580 | And I think a lot of people gaze out before they gaze in.

01:36:48.260 | Right, they spend a lot of time in other people's brains

01:36:50.780 | and less time in their own, right?

01:36:52.540 | What do they think of me?

01:36:53.380 | What do they think, right?

01:36:55.220 | If that's what's going on for you,

01:36:58.100 | then the shell to your egg isn't always intact.

01:37:03.100 | And so there's a spillover.

01:37:04.660 | It's like, whose feelings are whose?

01:37:06.460 | Whose thoughts are whose?

01:37:08.100 | I'm spending so much time worried

01:37:09.900 | about what that person thinks of me.

01:37:11.500 | I almost like, what am I, what do I, what do I think?

01:37:13.860 | Right?

01:37:14.700 | And so the exercise you're naming

01:37:16.900 | is actually just a resetting of a boundary, right?

01:37:19.860 | Is, and things that are absurdly concrete

01:37:23.700 | are necessary for the most primal parts of our brain

01:37:27.220 | to actually understand.

01:37:28.820 | My name is Becky Kennedy.

01:37:31.380 | To me, what I say, I don't usually say that.

01:37:32.740 | I'll say, my feet are on the ground.

01:37:36.340 | When I do a grounding exercise,

01:37:39.620 | everyone in our community knows this,

01:37:41.700 | my hand is always on my heart.

01:37:43.340 | I think there's some amount of having contact

01:37:45.260 | with your body.

01:37:46.220 | My hand is on my heart.

01:37:48.260 | Sometimes I used to do this with clients,

01:37:51.380 | especially after an emotional experience,

01:37:52.900 | going like this, name five things in the room

01:37:55.620 | is probably another way.

01:37:56.940 | There's a red clock.

01:37:58.340 | I'm wearing a white shirt.

01:38:00.060 | They're very, very, very basic

01:38:02.940 | as a way of kind of coming back into your body.

01:38:06.820 | Two mantras that I find help parents a lot

01:38:10.420 | actually make me think about this exercise.

01:38:13.020 | One is, I am the pilot, not the turbulence.

01:38:16.140 | In our kids' turbulent moments,

01:38:19.100 | when they are that turbulence,

01:38:20.700 | what so easily happens is we merge into that with them.

01:38:25.460 | And then it's no wonder our kids can't calm down

01:38:29.860 | and our episodes last forever

01:38:31.180 | 'cause we're just turbulence and turbulence together.

01:38:34.100 | So I'm the pilot, not the turbulence.

01:38:35.740 | Also, one day I'm gonna do a partnership

01:38:38.340 | with some airplane company

01:38:42.140 | 'cause I feel like airplanes are just so beautiful

01:38:44.380 | because the pilot gets a cockpit.

01:38:46.660 | They get a boundary.

01:38:47.820 | That's what parents need.

01:38:50.620 | So that's one.

01:38:51.460 | And the other one, when your kids are upset

01:38:53.460 | or after there's an argument,

01:38:55.060 | some people get very dysregulated

01:38:56.700 | just knowing someone's upset with them,

01:38:58.580 | which is, again, kind of whose feelings are whose.

01:39:01.580 | I find one of the most effective mantras,

01:39:03.260 | and again, these sound cheesy, is just, I'm safe.

01:39:06.580 | This isn't an emergency.

01:39:09.740 | I can cope with this.

01:39:10.940 | Because our body, if you tend to be porous,

01:39:13.780 | you get activated just by other people being activated,

01:39:17.660 | even though it wasn't your feeling in the first place.

01:39:20.060 | And your body actually needs the reminder

01:39:22.700 | that you're safe to not kind of add to that turbulence.

01:39:28.300 | - Love it.

01:39:29.140 | Can we talk about projection for a second?

01:39:33.020 | One of the things that drives me insane,

01:39:37.100 | people close to me know this,

01:39:39.020 | because of this issue of porousness versus non-porousness

01:39:43.540 | is when people tell me how I feel.

01:39:46.340 | And so I've talked to a few

01:39:47.980 | very qualified psychiatrists about this,

01:39:49.780 | and it's called projection.

01:39:51.380 | Sometimes it's, if in anger, it's evacuative projection.

01:39:54.180 | Like, you think I'm crazy.

01:39:56.020 | Someone will say, like, you think I'm crazy.

01:39:58.020 | Or you're upset with me or something like that.

01:40:01.460 | I feel like projection is one of the kind of litmus tests

01:40:06.460 | of how porous we are.

01:40:08.460 | Because in theory, somebody should be able to tell us

01:40:11.300 | that we feel whatever.

01:40:13.460 | And if we first look inside,

01:40:15.940 | and by the way, I love this concept of,

01:40:17.500 | do you first look inside or outside?

01:40:19.980 | Do you listen to what's inside or outside first

01:40:22.420 | when something kind of arises emotionally outside you?

01:40:26.860 | Love, love, love that.

01:40:27.860 | It's something I'll have to explore.

01:40:29.700 | But if we don't do that,

01:40:34.700 | then you could see how projection would be very effective.

01:40:37.660 | And I'm not accusing anyone of using this

01:40:39.620 | in any kind of diabolical way.

01:40:40.900 | I think people just do it 'cause it worked

01:40:42.340 | and they're doing it 'cause they've always done it.

01:40:44.900 | But if somebody says, you know,

01:40:46.140 | like, you don't care about me as a friend,

01:40:48.300 | or, you know, telling someone how they feel

01:40:51.980 | is so very different than telling someone how we feel, duh.

01:40:56.380 | All right, it's kind of an obvious.

01:40:57.300 | And yet, once you start watching for projection,

01:40:59.580 | you see it all the time.

01:41:00.820 | - Yeah.

01:41:01.660 | - But not just at you, but like in between people.

01:41:04.780 | - Right.

01:41:05.620 | - Like, you know, like I know this stresses you out,

01:41:07.020 | but, you know, people start doing it all the time.

01:41:09.020 | And it's very interesting to see how people

01:41:10.420 | kind of divide into a couple of different groups on this,

01:41:12.540 | maybe two or more groups in terms of whether or not

01:41:15.740 | it affects them and if it gets in their head,

01:41:17.780 | or somehow they're like, no, no, it's ridiculous.

01:41:20.580 | I don't feel that way.

01:41:21.780 | And for me, it's very context specific.

01:41:23.980 | But I'd love your thoughts on projection,

01:41:27.860 | both towards kids and from kids.

01:41:31.820 | - So, all right, I'm gonna respond to that.

01:41:34.820 | And you just cut me off.

01:41:35.740 | You're like, Becky, that's not the direction

01:41:36.940 | I want you to go in.

01:41:37.780 | Because I guess MGI,

01:41:40.860 | which is I call most generous interpretation,

01:41:43.780 | is to me the embodiment of not what I do all the time.

01:41:47.300 | Definitely not, 'cause I'm imperfect.

01:41:49.140 | But what I think is just a useful framework

01:41:51.100 | to try to employ as much as possible.

01:41:53.260 | Because the idea of what is the most generous interpretation

01:41:57.060 | of someone's behavior, like projection,

01:41:59.460 | counteracts our very natural human tendency,

01:42:01.940 | which is just what is the least generous interpretation.

01:42:05.060 | Right, we all come up with the least generous interpretation

01:42:07.660 | of people's behavior all the time.

01:42:09.540 | And it's just quick, it's easy.

01:42:11.220 | And I think it's 'cause in our brain,

01:42:12.380 | if we see something bad or annoying,

01:42:13.900 | it's just easy to think that that's the whole, right?

01:42:16.780 | So I can't even tell you how many times

01:42:18.180 | every parent I know will say, my kid doesn't listen.

01:42:21.380 | They hit all the elevator buttons.

01:42:22.900 | They hit other people.

01:42:24.420 | And then I said, and I know what you're thinking,

01:42:25.700 | they're a sociopath.

01:42:26.540 | They're like, that's literally what I'm thinking.

01:42:27.860 | I was like, I know, I have that thought too.

01:42:29.180 | - You know, when I was a kid,

01:42:30.020 | I used to put every button in the elevator.

01:42:32.380 | - Right.

01:42:33.220 | - Does that mean I'm a sociopath?

01:42:34.380 | - No, it means you are a good kid

01:42:36.460 | who has not yet learned the skills to regulate urges.

01:42:40.500 | That's all it means.

01:42:41.340 | That would be the most generous interpretation.

01:42:43.340 | - They're there, you just wanna, no, I'm kidding.

01:42:44.740 | You just wanna push 'em.

01:42:45.740 | I'm joking. - You do.

01:42:46.580 | - I'm joking.

01:42:47.420 | - I have a kid like that too.

01:42:48.260 | He wants things for himself

01:42:49.580 | and he derives a lot of joy from things.

01:42:52.060 | Those types of kids are gonna do things.

01:42:53.420 | Okay, that's my resilient revel.

01:42:56.260 | Okay, but projection.

01:42:58.820 | Why am I bringing that up?

01:42:59.900 | So what's my most generous interpretation

01:43:02.820 | of why this projection would happen?

01:43:05.260 | Why would a kid say, you're mad at me?

01:43:07.900 | Or, you know, I can see how mad you are at me.

01:43:10.740 | Or why would someone even say in adulthood,

01:43:13.740 | you seem really, really stressed out, right?

01:43:16.220 | Again, the gazing in versus gazing out.

01:43:19.140 | I think it comes back to, in our childhoods,

01:43:21.740 | I mean, that's what often a lot comes back to,

01:43:24.540 | were we taught that we have an emotional life

01:43:30.060 | that lives inside of us?

01:43:32.700 | Then were we taught how to understand that emotional life?

01:43:36.700 | Then were we taught how to manage

01:43:38.980 | and cope with that whole emotional life?

01:43:41.420 | Most people were not.

01:43:43.020 | So it becomes this very, very complicated conundrum.

01:43:47.060 | The emotional life is happening inside me.

01:43:48.740 | Again, like you can't beat it.

01:43:50.100 | It's happening, our feelings, we can't get rid of them.

01:43:53.140 | And they're very powerful, they're sensations.

01:43:55.780 | But if your framework was always, you're getting punished,

01:43:58.660 | you're getting ridiculed, you're being a baby,

01:44:00.820 | then you develop a very conflictual relationship

01:44:03.420 | with your feelings.

01:44:04.260 | Like, they can't be real.

01:44:05.860 | They almost can't be mine.

01:44:07.860 | That's really what, they can't be mine.

01:44:10.540 | People like this often blame other people a lot

01:44:13.900 | for things they never did

01:44:15.340 | when they're really frustrated and upset.

01:44:17.020 | 'Cause it's almost like, this can't be mine,

01:44:18.860 | so like, who did this feeling to me?

01:44:23.500 | You know?

01:44:24.340 | There's a lot of that in the world.

01:44:25.500 | A lot of that in the world.

01:44:26.740 | Who did this feeling to me?

01:44:28.820 | Who put this in me?

01:44:31.140 | Right?

01:44:32.300 | It's so fragile and so sad almost.

01:44:36.380 | And so, you know, toxic.

01:44:38.940 | But projection, in a way, is the only way

01:44:42.980 | that I can understand my emotional life.

01:44:46.420 | Is by imagining you having an emotional life.

01:44:51.220 | I don't know.

01:44:53.020 | Like, a lot of these things, I hear myself say this,

01:44:55.220 | I like, Mel, I was like, oh, that's,

01:44:57.620 | what a vulnerable way to go about the world.

01:44:59.180 | What an awful way to live in your body.

01:45:01.780 | That you're so overwhelmed

01:45:04.020 | and almost so self-abandoning

01:45:10.100 | of the information in your body

01:45:13.420 | that it must be someone else's.

01:45:16.180 | You know?

01:45:17.020 | So, that's what projection is, right?

01:45:20.140 | So, what do we do when we see it, right?

01:45:23.700 | I don't know, what's an example, right?

01:45:24.980 | Like, you're so stressed out.

01:45:26.700 | You've been so stressed and you're thinking,

01:45:29.140 | maybe you're thinking of partnership,

01:45:30.140 | like, I feel like you're the one who's stressed, right?

01:45:34.220 | Never helps in the heat of the moment to be right.

01:45:37.100 | I've tried it a million times.

01:45:38.700 | I don't know about you.

01:45:39.540 | - To be right in an argument?

01:45:40.980 | - To be right in a heated moment

01:45:42.340 | when you're like, I'm gonna be right.

01:45:44.220 | Not if you want an effective outcome, no.

01:45:46.700 | - No, but it's a very hard urge to resist.

01:45:49.340 | - It took me many years to learn,

01:45:50.780 | but someone taught it to me in one hour.

01:45:54.740 | I feel very grateful that she taught me this,

01:45:57.020 | that she didn't tell me to do it,

01:45:58.740 | but I just realized if you just, like,

01:46:01.540 | I don't have any word other than just, like, soften.

01:46:04.620 | If you just kind of, like,

01:46:06.180 | imagine becoming more like a noodle

01:46:11.060 | than, like, a rigid bar of iron.

01:46:14.740 | I just, like, go.

01:46:16.380 | And I actually, I think of the way that, like, my,

01:46:20.260 | he always comes up, but my,

01:46:21.340 | I had this bulldog mastiff, Costello,

01:46:22.860 | and he was, like, super lazy.

01:46:23.780 | The contract with him was he would protect me

01:46:25.580 | with his entire life, but if my life wasn't on the line,

01:46:29.540 | noodle.

01:46:31.140 | And I remember just thinking, like, if I just go there,

01:46:34.860 | then the basic contract of, like, I care about you,

01:46:37.940 | I'll protect you with my life is still there.

01:46:40.100 | So I guess I learned it from my bulldog,

01:46:41.620 | but it sort of played out in a romantic relationship.

01:46:43.980 | And it was just really beautiful.

01:46:45.020 | It was one of the best things I learned

01:46:47.020 | from the two of them.

01:46:49.180 | - Yeah.

01:46:50.700 | - Is how I just, like, literally, like, physically soften.

01:46:54.060 | Then, like, everything becomes apparent.

01:46:56.140 | Somehow, for me, it allows me

01:46:57.380 | to get back into my own eggshell.

01:46:59.940 | - Yep.

01:47:00.780 | - But still have optics out.

01:47:02.100 | Now, that's me.

01:47:02.940 | I realize it's, you know,

01:47:03.860 | and that doesn't mean in the heat of the moment,

01:47:05.380 | I'm not, like, feeling like I want to be reactive.

01:47:07.580 | - Right.

01:47:08.420 | - The physical change to my body.

01:47:11.300 | - Yeah.

01:47:12.140 | - Self-directed physical change to my body

01:47:13.780 | is what just kind of, like, changed everything.

01:47:16.340 | - Yeah, and I think, you know, this is so true

01:47:18.460 | in relationships, definitely at work,

01:47:20.300 | and definitely in parenting,

01:47:22.380 | is you don't have to represent everything you believe in

01:47:27.380 | in, like, a given moment.

01:47:29.940 | Like, we're not so fragile, like, to be like,

01:47:32.180 | no, and you're projecting, like, I have time.

01:47:34.860 | Like, this is a heated moment.

01:47:37.260 | I can kind of chill out.

01:47:38.900 | You're so stressed, and I think I'm not.

01:47:40.380 | I think there's projection.

01:47:41.220 | I might say, like, oh, I am?

01:47:43.980 | Well, who cares?

01:47:46.140 | Just, like, get through the moment, right?

01:47:47.860 | And then maybe after, if it feels important,

01:47:49.780 | I say, I feel like this thing happens sometimes

01:47:51.860 | where when you're stressed, you say, I'm stressed.

01:47:53.580 | I don't know.

01:47:54.420 | Like, let's talk about this.

01:47:56.020 | That's when that happens.

01:47:57.940 | I think this is really true with kids, too, right?

01:48:01.980 | This happened the other day.

01:48:03.260 | And in some ways, it's the same strategy,

01:48:05.300 | which I jokingly on Instagram called do nothing

01:48:08.380 | with a capital D and a capital N,

01:48:10.620 | because so many times in hard situations,

01:48:12.660 | especially when you're accused of something

01:48:14.300 | that's not true, people will say to parents,

01:48:16.900 | oh, so you're just gonna do nothing?

01:48:19.620 | Well, I'm like, take away the just.

01:48:21.820 | Like, doing nothing in a heated moment

01:48:23.940 | is a very sophisticated technique,

01:48:26.460 | because really what you're saying

01:48:27.580 | is you're doing nothing on the outside,

01:48:29.700 | and you're being an adult

01:48:31.820 | and managing your feelings on the inside.

01:48:34.180 | - Amen to that.

01:48:35.020 | - Versus doing nothing on the inside

01:48:39.060 | and just yelling or reacting on the outside.

01:48:41.700 | So the other day, my son came to me

01:48:44.100 | before school, my youngest,

01:48:45.180 | and he goes, my sweatshirt's still dirty.

01:48:47.380 | And I was like, oh, man.

01:48:49.100 | He goes, you promised me

01:48:51.140 | you would wash my sweatshirt before school.

01:48:53.300 | Between us, he never asked me that, okay?

01:48:57.540 | And here's my fork in the road.

01:48:59.780 | It's like, we all know what it would be easier.

01:49:02.380 | What I, by the way, I wanted to say back to him,

01:49:05.060 | 99% of me was about to go, you never asked me.

01:49:10.060 | And then he's like, I did.

01:49:11.580 | No, you didn't.

01:49:12.420 | And now you're lying to me.

01:49:13.620 | And all of a sudden, it's like, okay.

01:49:15.460 | You know what he was saying to me?

01:49:17.380 | I wish my sweatshirt was clean.

01:49:20.700 | That's what he was saying.

01:49:22.020 | That's what we're all saying.

01:49:23.540 | And I'm so upset about it.

01:49:25.820 | The feeling is so big that it's like too overwhelming

01:49:29.140 | in this moment as a seven-year-old to be mine.

01:49:32.060 | So, like, I kind of have to make it your fault

01:49:35.180 | to try to make sense of it.

01:49:37.260 | So what did I do in the moment?

01:49:38.940 | I literally did nothing.

01:49:41.100 | What'd I do?

01:49:42.180 | You promised me you'd wash my sweatshirt.

01:49:44.540 | And I went like this.

01:49:45.580 | I kind of was just like looking at him

01:49:49.660 | like I knew what it was like to want something

01:49:51.340 | and not be able to have it.

01:49:53.260 | And he's like, you did.

01:49:55.100 | In the moment, I go, I did.

01:49:56.940 | Oh, that sweatshirt is dirty.

01:50:01.460 | You really wanted it to be clean.

01:50:03.220 | Just kind of, and he's like, I really did.

01:50:06.700 | I was like, oh, that's the worst.

01:50:08.340 | Not joking.

01:50:10.220 | And then he, at the end, like five minutes later,

01:50:12.780 | I didn't say anything.

01:50:13.780 | He got another sweatshirt.

01:50:14.820 | We moved on.

01:50:15.660 | I didn't say, I wasn't going to like ruin the moment

01:50:17.900 | by being like, see, you could cope or you never asked me.

01:50:21.220 | But I think in both these moments,

01:50:23.580 | whether someone's saying you're stressed

01:50:25.020 | or my kid's accusing me,

01:50:27.340 | I think about this a lot in parenting.

01:50:29.380 | I don't have to prove my parenting in a moment.

01:50:32.340 | I don't have to prove it to my kid.

01:50:33.860 | I don't have to prove it

01:50:34.700 | 'cause my mother-in-law is watching.

01:50:36.060 | Like I trust myself way more than I trust one single moment

01:50:41.060 | to represent everything about me.

01:50:44.140 | And I think when we can gain a little bit of that confidence

01:50:47.060 | we have a lot more freedom to just be effective

01:50:49.660 | and to also know there's a moment to do nothing.

01:50:54.100 | And then if something's a chronic issue,

01:50:55.460 | if my son's chronically blaming me,

01:50:57.700 | when things are less heated, I'm going to say to him,

01:51:00.260 | you know, something and, you know, a calm moment.

01:51:03.060 | - Those are super important and novel approaches

01:51:06.700 | to things that I think everybody deals with,

01:51:10.500 | kids in the picture or not.

01:51:11.980 | My audience sometimes gets angry with me

01:51:16.140 | when I ask very long extended questions,

01:51:19.520 | but could I just share with you

01:51:22.300 | something I learned about an experiment?

01:51:24.860 | 'Cause I think it blew my mind.

01:51:28.140 | I won't take long.

01:51:29.040 | There's a imaging experiment.

01:51:32.540 | So you put people in a scanner, they image their brain,

01:51:35.140 | see which areas are active, fMRI.

01:51:37.180 | There's a really wild experiment

01:51:39.940 | where they bring people in for the scan.

01:51:41.780 | They don't tell them why they're there

01:51:43.700 | and they tell them they're going to be paid $30

01:51:45.980 | and they set out three $10 bills.

01:51:48.940 | Maybe you know this experiment, I don't know.

01:51:50.900 | Then they go into the scanner and then they come out

01:51:53.740 | and then the researcher leaves

01:51:54.900 | and there's a discussion, et cetera, et cetera.

01:51:56.500 | And at some point, one of the $10 bills

01:51:58.620 | is removed by the researcher.

01:52:00.940 | And people are told at the end of the experiment,

01:52:04.220 | you took one of the $10 bills.

01:52:07.860 | And they're like, no, I didn't because they didn't.

01:52:11.580 | Nobody says you're right.

01:52:13.780 | But then they re-image them

01:52:18.540 | and they compare that to a condition in other subjects

01:52:21.740 | where people actually did a little sneaky steal

01:52:24.420 | during a money game.

01:52:25.860 | And the same areas of the brain light up

01:52:28.660 | that we think are associated with guilt.

01:52:33.420 | In other words, if somebody is told that they did something,

01:52:37.300 | even if they know they didn't,

01:52:39.100 | there are aspects of brain circuitry

01:52:41.900 | that reflect a "feeling of guilt."

01:52:45.060 | It's like it introduces this question about reality.

01:52:47.740 | And so they can know with 100% certainty,

01:52:50.020 | you can know with 100% certainty

01:52:51.860 | that you did not do something.

01:52:53.820 | And yet it starts to introduce these questions

01:52:55.700 | about how you gauge reality.

01:52:57.980 | Simply because somebody you just met a few minutes earlier,

01:53:00.620 | yes, in a position of authority,

01:53:02.580 | they're the researcher, you're the subject, et cetera,

01:53:05.420 | told you that you did it.

01:53:06.940 | I think this has huge implications

01:53:09.100 | for parent-child relationships,

01:53:10.580 | for romantic relationships, workplace relationships,

01:53:12.740 | for real bias in the outside world.

01:53:15.900 | You can imagine if you're told your whole life

01:53:17.460 | that you're a piece of garbage

01:53:18.620 | or that you're part of a bad group or something like this.

01:53:21.100 | I'm not trying to get political here.

01:53:22.500 | You could come to believe that

01:53:24.180 | at a level that is biological,

01:53:26.340 | even if cognitively doesn't make sense.

01:53:29.220 | So this is where I think about this challenging boundary

01:53:34.140 | between knowing what we know, being a container,

01:53:36.980 | staying in our frame,

01:53:38.260 | pick your favorite lingo around this,

01:53:40.340 | and the fact that words and the emotions of other people

01:53:44.980 | really do have the capacity to rewire us on the inside.

01:53:49.980 | - You know, a question I'd have about that study,

01:53:53.620 | I'd be really curious if there was variation among subjects

01:53:57.900 | where some people that guilt part lit up a lot more.

01:54:00.780 | - Okay, so you reminded me, so this is the wild part.

01:54:03.460 | The distribution of kind of like people who have this,

01:54:08.220 | by the way, folks,

01:54:10.220 | there aren't single brain areas for whole emotions,

01:54:11.940 | but let's just, for sake of simplicity here,

01:54:14.700 | that have the guilt area activated

01:54:16.860 | even when they didn't take the money.

01:54:18.700 | The entire population of subjects

01:54:20.220 | doesn't experience that to the same degree.

01:54:21.700 | You have these people for whom

01:54:24.020 | it's very high amplitude response and others who aren't.

01:54:27.140 | Now I don't recall,

01:54:28.140 | and I need to go back and look at the study,

01:54:29.500 | if it divided according to male, female,

01:54:31.660 | because earlier you said that this tendency-

01:54:34.300 | - I would bet a million dollars

01:54:36.500 | that if I got to know those people,

01:54:37.860 | the people who really light up

01:54:40.660 | have a lot of focus on gazing out

01:54:43.100 | and determining their inner reality

01:54:44.820 | by what other people think about them.

01:54:46.980 | And the people who did not light up as much

01:54:49.340 | are the people who gaze in

01:54:50.820 | and have a deep sense of themselves,

01:54:54.140 | even in the face of kind of a lack of validation

01:54:58.380 | or even in the face of criticism.

01:55:00.060 | I would bet my money on that psychological kind of,

01:55:03.500 | is that a moderator or a mediator?

01:55:05.180 | I don't know, you tell me.

01:55:06.380 | So I'd be very curious about that.

01:55:08.060 | - Great, well, I have no skin in the game.

01:55:09.980 | Like I didn't run this study and I'll go back

01:55:12.140 | and check it out. - I want to know.

01:55:12.980 | - And it's a collection of studies.

01:55:14.460 | And I hadn't known about this.

01:55:15.700 | I mean, I read the neuroscience literature,

01:55:17.620 | but I hadn't known about this.

01:55:18.460 | I find it like a complete yes, of course, on the one hand,

01:55:23.460 | and also super surprising on the other.

01:55:25.900 | - Yeah. - And just oh, so cool.

01:55:27.660 | - Yeah.

01:55:28.500 | - In the sense that it's informative.

01:55:30.180 | And it's making me think that some people

01:55:32.740 | really need to do the work of paying more attention

01:55:35.100 | to other people's emotions

01:55:36.620 | and feeling them a little bit more.

01:55:38.100 | And other people probably need to do the exact opposite.

01:55:41.380 | - That's exactly right.

01:55:42.620 | And to me, like I always, I say this to people I manage,

01:55:45.740 | I say like, I think about this in general with adults.

01:55:48.420 | I think such an empowering thing as an adult

01:55:52.380 | is just to know where you are in any given scale.

01:55:55.940 | So for me, as a leader, I'm always gas.

01:55:58.660 | I'm like, go, go, go.

01:55:59.620 | We can do this, we can get this accomplished.

01:56:01.100 | I'm probably like pretty far in that.

01:56:03.980 | And given that, I know it's really important for me

01:56:06.820 | to have people around me who sometimes say like,

01:56:09.060 | whoa, let's look at this first, right?

01:56:11.100 | I also know that sometimes if I do have a like,

01:56:16.380 | maybe I should slow this down.

01:56:17.700 | I should like really listen to that

01:56:19.220 | 'cause that's like not, right?

01:56:20.660 | But knowing where I am on a scale is important.

01:56:23.940 | I talk about someone that I manage

01:56:26.380 | who she really needs to be more direct

01:56:28.180 | with the people she manages.

01:56:29.180 | Just like, you know, like sometimes ask questions

01:56:31.660 | when she really wants statements

01:56:33.020 | and can have a little higher standard.

01:56:35.580 | And I think it's helpful to know where she is in that scale

01:56:38.460 | because I remember saying like,

01:56:39.940 | I want you to go as far as you can toward the other direction

01:56:42.180 | without being disrespectful

01:56:43.460 | because it's almost impossible to do that, right?

01:56:47.020 | And so I think for adults to know,

01:56:49.220 | let's say I gaze in or I more gaze out,

01:56:51.460 | neither is better or worse.

01:56:53.260 | Probably again, mental health and resilience

01:56:56.300 | is about having just a lack of rigidity.

01:56:58.860 | And so to say, what is my starting point?

01:57:00.860 | Like anyone listening, what is my starting point?

01:57:02.820 | There's no morality.

01:57:04.140 | It's literally not better or worse.

01:57:06.420 | It just gives me information

01:57:08.020 | about which direction to experiment with.

01:57:11.380 | And I like to make this a concrete experiment, right?

01:57:14.060 | So let's say you are someone

01:57:16.700 | who tends to gaze out before you gaze in.

01:57:19.060 | And you're always like, I can't do this thing I want to do

01:57:21.500 | because it would inconvenience someone.

01:57:23.100 | I told this story the other day on my Instagram

01:57:24.820 | and people went bananas about it.

01:57:27.100 | I was at the airport

01:57:29.580 | and I got a cup of coffee in the morning.

01:57:32.060 | And I like my coffee with just like

01:57:33.340 | a really little bit of milk, right?

01:57:35.100 | And I know to specify it if I'm asking someone else.

01:57:37.900 | So I went to the counter and I said,

01:57:38.940 | hey, can I get a medium coffee?

01:57:40.980 | Not black, just a little, little bit of milk,

01:57:43.180 | pretty close to black.

01:57:44.060 | Sure, no problem.

01:57:45.100 | I go, I wait in line, then it's on the counter.

01:57:47.060 | I pick it up, Becky, and it's like light as can be.

01:57:51.020 | I got back on line.

01:57:56.340 | I brought the coffee.

01:57:57.860 | And I said, hey, I asked for this.

01:57:59.900 | I know there's a lot of people probably got lost.

01:58:02.020 | I asked for this, you know, darker.

01:58:03.740 | Could you pour out a good amount of this

01:58:05.500 | and then refill it with coffee?

01:58:07.300 | The person, you know, who knows if it could have gone

01:58:09.460 | differently a different day, should, oh, right, no problem.

01:58:12.220 | Here you go.

01:58:13.060 | This happens with things that are so much bigger than coffee,

01:58:16.780 | but the coffee example is such a good one

01:58:19.100 | because what I'm doing in that moment is I'm saying,

01:58:22.780 | I'm allowed to have my coffee the way I wanted it

01:58:25.900 | and asked for it, even if it's awkward

01:58:29.940 | or inconveniences the other person.

01:58:32.820 | Now, can people be on the opposite extreme?

01:58:35.060 | And can someone hear this and be like,

01:58:37.140 | I probably need to do a little bit less of my own needs.

01:58:41.580 | That's what I'm saying.

01:58:42.420 | You have to know who you are.

01:58:43.300 | But what I have found at least with moms

01:58:46.380 | is the idea of, ooh, you know, I asked for almond milk

01:58:52.420 | and this is whole milk.

01:58:54.420 | Or I used to give my clients this experiment

01:58:57.220 | who had this struggle.

01:58:58.140 | I said, I want you at the grocery store.

01:59:01.980 | After you're basically done checking out,

01:59:04.340 | to say, oh, you know what?

01:59:06.860 | I actually don't need those paper towels.

01:59:08.900 | I can't even tell you.

01:59:10.180 | People are like, I can't do that.

01:59:11.620 | I can't like return it.

01:59:12.700 | Like, oh my goodness.

01:59:14.100 | It was like a panic attack.

01:59:15.140 | And the panic, the panic feeling is

01:59:18.580 | that would be a completely new circuit.

01:59:20.580 | That would be me saying, I'm willing to do something

01:59:24.060 | to meet my own needs.

01:59:25.060 | I actually don't need that paper towel.

01:59:28.020 | Even though it could get an eye roll

01:59:31.580 | or inconvenience temporarily someone else.

01:59:35.540 | Those little experiments.

01:59:36.980 | And it might be the opposite.

01:59:38.340 | It might be saying to my partner tonight, you know what?

01:59:41.660 | We always sit down and talk about my work.

01:59:44.020 | And I actually did have a stressful day, but you know what?

01:59:46.820 | I wanna hear about your day.

01:59:49.180 | You go first.

01:59:50.020 | That's also an experiment.

01:59:51.060 | And for someone who's on that extreme,

01:59:53.100 | they're gonna also have a panic attack.

01:59:54.420 | They're gonna be like, this is deeply uncomfortable.

01:59:56.860 | But just knowing where you are in the spectrum

01:59:58.900 | gives you the information you need

02:00:01.020 | to get a little bit of balance.

02:00:02.580 | - Yeah, I think there's clearly a distribution

02:00:05.220 | and whether or not it's a binary distribution

02:00:08.740 | or it's kind of like a normal distribution, I don't know.

02:00:11.540 | But there's clearly variance here

02:00:13.660 | from one person to the next.

02:00:14.860 | And probably even depending on how well rested we are

02:00:17.740 | and all the rest.

02:00:18.580 | But I do think that we do kind of fall into phenotypes

02:00:21.520 | of prone to reacting to other people's emotions

02:00:25.620 | without hearing and listening to

02:00:28.140 | and responding to ours first, like truly ours first

02:00:31.740 | versus people who are just really out there.

02:00:34.540 | I realize it's very different

02:00:36.220 | than any other kind of relationship.

02:00:37.460 | But when I first went from being a postdoc

02:00:39.220 | to having my own laboratory,

02:00:40.660 | the chair in my department,

02:00:41.700 | my chairman in one department anyway, he said,

02:00:43.980 | you know, you should get a great big desk

02:00:46.020 | that's like really thick.

02:00:47.900 | I was like, yeah, like why?

02:00:50.140 | I mean, I get it.

02:00:50.960 | You don't wanna be sitting like right next

02:00:52.060 | to your employees or something, but like why?

02:00:54.100 | So that, and he goes, so that when they cry,

02:00:56.180 | you won't feel like you need to cry or take care of them.

02:00:59.260 | You'll just slide the Kleenex across the desk.

02:01:02.620 | And I was like, are you kidding?

02:01:04.540 | And he's like, no.

02:01:05.380 | And then years later, I looked back and I realized,

02:01:10.380 | I understood what he was saying.

02:01:12.020 | I mean, he didn't know me at all,

02:01:13.120 | but he was just saying probably something about himself,

02:01:15.120 | which is people are gonna come into your office.

02:01:17.820 | They're gonna cry.

02:01:19.140 | It does happen.

02:01:20.380 | And you're going to need to be the boss,

02:01:23.620 | which is to be supportive and empathic,

02:01:26.180 | but like you can't get pulled into it

02:01:27.500 | because they might be crying about something

02:01:29.460 | they don't like about the lab

02:01:30.700 | or about something not happening the way they want it.

02:01:32.740 | I mean, who could imagine any other reason to cry

02:01:35.340 | in your boss's office, but maybe they have a family issue

02:01:37.860 | and, you know, so you have to remember you're the boss.

02:01:41.140 | And I thought, oh, that's interesting.

02:01:43.900 | I ended up with a desk that was kind of medium in width,

02:01:46.940 | but I think that nowadays there's a lot more

02:01:50.660 | kind of bleeding of roles.

02:01:52.300 | And, you know, it used to be that everyone

02:01:56.140 | got really dressed up for work.

02:01:57.820 | Now dressing down is like common in certain circumstances

02:02:01.220 | and not others.

02:02:02.060 | I think that there's a lot of kind of lack of clarity

02:02:05.800 | about, here we go again, you know, power and authority,

02:02:10.800 | but also kind of staying in our own frame

02:02:13.980 | versus taking on someone else's frame.

02:02:15.740 | - Yeah.

02:02:16.580 | - You know, I have a friend who runs a pretty large business

02:02:18.720 | and he did the same experiment that you did

02:02:20.420 | of asking people, you know, how he could do better.

02:02:23.580 | But first he unfortunately made the mistake

02:02:26.540 | of asking people how they felt about being there.

02:02:29.260 | And they ended up making one of these emotion clouds

02:02:32.000 | where they took, everyone filled out a thing

02:02:33.900 | and wrote what the most dominant emotions were.

02:02:36.160 | And then he told this story, like, call me late at night.

02:02:39.300 | He sits down and they're gonna present this as data

02:02:42.060 | in front of everybody.

02:02:43.380 | And this emotion cloud comes up

02:02:45.100 | and the biggest bubble in the middle just says stress.

02:02:49.060 | And he was mortified, right?

02:02:51.380 | But he learned that they all feel

02:02:52.700 | really, really, really stressed.

02:02:54.400 | That sort of exercise would never have happened

02:02:58.620 | 10, 15 years ago.

02:03:00.160 | - Yeah.

02:03:01.000 | - It's like, yeah, like I won't say what profession

02:03:03.260 | he's in for sake of privacy, but like,

02:03:04.860 | it's a profession where stress is part of the process

02:03:08.180 | and you don't kind of get the certificate at the end,

02:03:10.900 | so to speak, if you don't experience stress.

02:03:12.900 | - But this actually relates to what we started with

02:03:14.460 | in a way, I'm gonna circle it back there, which is,

02:03:18.380 | and 'cause I hear this a lot, you know,

02:03:20.580 | ugh, kind of some kids these days,

02:03:23.140 | they don't know how to tolerate stress

02:03:26.340 | or they're always overwhelmed.

02:03:28.020 | But part of it is, again, maybe this is my MGI,

02:03:31.000 | maybe they haven't been told the right story

02:03:32.500 | about stress or anxiety.

02:03:35.860 | This came up with my kids the other day.

02:03:37.980 | My older son had his first basketball game of the season

02:03:41.380 | and he goes, oh, I'm really nervous,

02:03:42.860 | feeling a little anxious.

02:03:43.980 | And it's just so interesting, like,

02:03:45.300 | the way we respond in little ways to our kids

02:03:47.740 | in these moments form, like,

02:03:50.660 | the way they end up thinking about those feelings later on.

02:03:53.600 | I said, well, of course you're nervous.

02:03:55.780 | Being nervous means you care.

02:03:57.080 | You really care about basketball, right?

02:03:59.580 | And obviously we've had many conversations

02:04:00.960 | about what feelings mean, but it was so interesting.

02:04:02.900 | I watch him go, yeah, I do care.

02:04:06.180 | Kind of in that little sentence,

02:04:08.300 | being nervous means you care.

02:04:10.780 | I mean, think about it, you're never nervous

02:04:12.040 | about anything you don't care about, right?

02:04:14.980 | If being nervous means I care,

02:04:17.900 | I have a story to understand it.

02:04:20.100 | I now inherently feel like the feeling is normal.

02:04:22.780 | I'm almost, I'm almost like proud, you know?

02:04:25.540 | Like, yeah, I do care, right?

02:04:27.220 | My relationship with that feeling

02:04:30.000 | is going to be so different than if my parents are like,

02:04:32.420 | why are you nervous?

02:04:33.260 | There's nothing to be nervous about.

02:04:34.220 | Or, oh, you're nervous?

02:04:35.500 | Oh, does that mean you're not gonna play well?

02:04:36.860 | Oh my goodness, are you gonna miss your foul shots?

02:04:38.380 | Like, I mean, so in the first, right,

02:04:40.700 | my kid feels like being nervous is wrong.

02:04:42.860 | So I just set them up to feel like

02:04:45.080 | they're feeling the wrong feeling

02:04:46.420 | when they're feeling nervous going on.

02:04:47.980 | In the second, I'm lingering on my anxiety

02:04:50.220 | to their nervousness, not a great combo.

02:04:52.740 | But the stories we tell matter.

02:04:54.460 | So in the workplace, you're stressed.

02:04:56.060 | Yeah, you know, actually this makes me think,

02:04:58.120 | maybe not right now, we need more time.

02:05:00.660 | It'd be really helpful to talk about what is stress?

02:05:03.860 | Why do we feel stress?

02:05:05.940 | How do we talk to ourselves when we feel stressed?

02:05:08.180 | Does anyone here know the way you talk to yourself

02:05:11.220 | when you're stressed?

02:05:12.860 | Has the power to make stress feel a little smaller

02:05:16.940 | or a little bigger?

02:05:18.620 | That's really interesting.

02:05:19.820 | I wonder, does anyone here use a session?

02:05:21.740 | Should we do something in the workplace

02:05:23.180 | about how to deal with stress?

02:05:24.860 | Because you're right, this is a stressful job.

02:05:28.940 | And this is where I don't think about power, but authority.

02:05:32.020 | And I wanna own that and let you know that.

02:05:34.620 | Stress comes along with this type of job.

02:05:37.540 | I'm making this up.

02:05:38.380 | And this is why you get paid pretty well.

02:05:40.620 | And this is why, you know, whatever else could be true.

02:05:43.420 | But one of my jobs is not just being honest,

02:05:45.980 | but actually helping everyone develop the best skills

02:05:48.460 | that maybe no one ever taught them before to manage stress.

02:05:51.060 | Let me know if that's of interest.

02:05:52.460 | I just think about the whole mood just changed.

02:05:55.180 | You kind of own your authority and you own the story.

02:05:59.540 | And I think whether you're talking about being a CEO

02:06:01.420 | or being a parent, it's actually all the same.

02:06:04.380 | That makes sense.

02:06:06.860 | I have a rule, which is if my pulse rate

02:06:08.940 | goes above a certain limit, my thumbs stop working.

02:06:12.260 | Meaning I won't allow myself to text.

02:06:14.620 | I don't talk on the phone.

02:06:16.740 | I'll just, I'll go in the bathroom

02:06:18.740 | and just sit for a second if I have to.

02:06:20.060 | But that's rare.

02:06:20.900 | Typically I just, I'm like, I have a rule.

02:06:22.420 | My heart rate goes up, my thumbs don't work.

02:06:24.700 | What do you do?

02:06:25.780 | I just do nothing.

02:06:26.860 | I follow the do nothing thing.

02:06:28.100 | I just wait.

02:06:28.980 | I mean, I also have a rule,

02:06:30.180 | which is unless somebody's hemorrhaging

02:06:31.580 | right in front of me, it usually can wait.

02:06:34.940 | Drives people crazy, but they thank me later.

02:06:37.940 | Like unless somebody is literally hemorrhaging,

02:06:39.580 | like I can pause my response.

02:06:41.180 | Because I'm a kind of like move fast,

02:06:45.740 | get things done kind of person.

02:06:48.500 | And actually it was taught to me by a chairman

02:06:51.540 | of a major university in your home city of New York City.

02:06:54.580 | He said, there's always more time.

02:06:56.940 | And I said, that's ridiculous.

02:06:57.820 | He said, unless somebody is hemorrhaging

02:06:59.100 | right in front of you, there's always more time.

02:07:01.340 | Going back to my daughter, it's one of the mantras

02:07:03.180 | that's been really helpful for me as someone who, again,

02:07:05.340 | just knowing myself, I always like to go, go, go.

02:07:08.900 | I get so much pleasure, probably identity value

02:07:12.980 | from doing things.

02:07:14.540 | And so a by-product of that

02:07:16.900 | is I always kind of feel like I'm in a rush

02:07:18.500 | because my body craves movement and checking things off.

02:07:22.660 | But being in a rush is never terribly helpful

02:07:26.180 | in close relationships.

02:07:27.580 | No one likes to feel like,

02:07:28.700 | Mike, you get to the end of the story or it's not good.

02:07:31.460 | - So sometimes I think efficiency

02:07:33.940 | and relationship building are like antithetical.

02:07:37.020 | - I, amen, a thousand times over.

02:07:40.180 | No, I don't think we can be efficient in relationships.

02:07:44.140 | It's like efficiency in other things is beautiful.

02:07:47.420 | - Well, it's a unitary experience being efficient

02:07:50.060 | in relation.

02:07:50.900 | And so like when I can be in efficiency mode a lot,

02:07:54.220 | and it's something that I have to really think

02:07:56.380 | when I'm going home to my closest relationships.

02:07:58.620 | And it's interesting now that I work

02:07:59.780 | so much more than I used to,

02:08:01.340 | it's almost reinforcing the efficiency mode.

02:08:03.860 | So I really know I have to, you know,

02:08:06.020 | my own therapy, like really work on,

02:08:07.740 | like that's not a value of mine all the time.

02:08:11.140 | At work, maybe sometimes, even there,

02:08:12.740 | sometimes you gotta get out of it

02:08:13.740 | to connect to people, right?

02:08:15.860 | And so that is something again,

02:08:19.100 | where like knowing where I am on that scale,

02:08:22.660 | asking people to call me out.

02:08:24.700 | Oh, mom, you're rushing me at night.

02:08:26.540 | Becky, I wanna tell you the whole story.

02:08:28.660 | I'm not just trying to give you the TLDR.

02:08:30.980 | I want the experience of telling the story.

02:08:33.260 | I'm like, right, I'm doing that thing.

02:08:35.260 | - Yeah, slowing down is rarely a mistake.

02:08:38.980 | I guess occasionally, but rarely a mistake.

02:08:42.140 | - Really true.

02:08:42.980 | - I'd like to talk a little bit about technology.

02:08:46.260 | I know this is a growing interest of yours.

02:08:48.860 | I've been thinking a little bit

02:08:50.420 | based on our earlier discussion

02:08:53.620 | about sort of people who are in their own container

02:08:55.900 | or sensing what's going on inside them

02:08:57.900 | prior to paying attention to

02:09:00.180 | and sensing what's going on in other people,

02:09:01.620 | because clearly both are important.

02:09:03.900 | I don't like this idea that it's like one or the other.

02:09:06.660 | But with the advent of text messaging,

02:09:10.580 | so here I'm not gonna talk about social media.

02:09:12.540 | This is not about social media.

02:09:14.540 | With text messaging, first of all,

02:09:17.340 | this is the first time in human evolution

02:09:18.740 | that humans have written with their thumbs.

02:09:21.460 | That's weird, been kind of quirky reflection.

02:09:24.380 | But the other one is this is the first time

02:09:26.180 | in human evolution, meaning very recently,

02:09:28.060 | that we are aware of what's going on

02:09:30.420 | with so many other people

02:09:31.500 | and we're expected to at least know it

02:09:34.540 | and perhaps even respond to it.

02:09:36.100 | I mean, it's just, I know people younger than 30

02:09:39.860 | are probably going, wait, no, it's always been this way,

02:09:41.580 | but it wasn't always this way.

02:09:42.820 | Clearly our brain has adapted to this new format,

02:09:45.300 | but it did not evolve in this format,

02:09:47.980 | whereby you're getting on a plane and you look at your phone

02:09:51.260 | and you are aware of the movements and requests

02:09:54.300 | and maybe kind statements, et cetera, from other people.

02:09:58.140 | We are tethered in so many ways,

02:10:01.020 | and that means that our brain is really tethered

02:10:03.660 | to the states of others, their emotional states,

02:10:06.820 | their physical states, where they are.

02:10:08.460 | You said, and I'll keep repeating it

02:10:09.980 | 'cause I love it so much,

02:10:10.820 | the more you can locate somebody,

02:10:12.420 | the more it reflects their values.

02:10:15.020 | So being able to locate somebody in space and time

02:10:17.740 | and understand how bounded they are

02:10:19.380 | or not to their own emotions or yours is fantastic,

02:10:22.560 | but the fact that you have 10 people in your phone

02:10:24.820 | that you're aware of,

02:10:27.140 | you're not even supposed to be aware of 10 people at once,

02:10:29.540 | except the 10 people perhaps around you

02:10:31.060 | on the, you know, boarding a plane.

02:10:33.180 | - Yeah.

02:10:34.120 | - So we're being forced to navigate a new landscape

02:10:37.620 | with all this.

02:10:38.460 | - Yes.

02:10:39.700 | - After this conversation folds, we'll look at our phones.

02:10:42.840 | You couldn't have that many, I guarantee you one thing,

02:10:45.940 | no matter how many text messages

02:10:47.240 | or few text messages you have,

02:10:48.900 | it's far more conversations, if you will,

02:10:51.940 | than you could possibly have by phone at once.

02:10:54.740 | - Yep.

02:10:55.580 | - So in the old days, you left messages

02:10:58.020 | and you'd get on the phone when you could.

02:11:00.020 | Not saying we go back to that,

02:11:01.220 | but I think we might be asking ourselves to do something

02:11:04.320 | that is impossibly hard and maybe even bad for us.

02:11:09.320 | - Yeah, I don't know how apocalyptic

02:11:14.640 | you want me to get about this,

02:11:16.420 | but I think I actually,

02:11:18.580 | you know, my husband and I were talking about phones

02:11:20.780 | and text and social media and AI.

02:11:25.120 | And I brought up something to him,

02:11:27.260 | he's like, "I don't think I,

02:11:28.100 | "in all the arguments I've heard, I haven't heard that."

02:11:29.820 | Where I feel like we're changing in a dramatic way

02:11:34.820 | our basic evolutionary drive around attachment

02:11:39.300 | in a way where attachment has always been

02:11:43.540 | the primary evolutionary drive of humans.

02:11:46.540 | And with all the different technological shifts

02:11:49.460 | there have been, 'cause people always say,

02:11:50.740 | "Oh, there's been this, there's been this."

02:11:53.020 | What's never been shifted is kind of the nature really

02:11:57.580 | of one-to-one human attachment.

02:12:00.360 | We're entering into something really new

02:12:04.500 | where let's even say text messages, 20 at once, 10 at once.

02:12:07.780 | Our bodies will always crave what's immediately gratifying

02:12:13.980 | over what is long-term good for us.

02:12:16.140 | It's just, another way I think about it is

02:12:19.140 | our bodies will always choose convenience

02:12:21.420 | and ease and gratification

02:12:22.740 | over what's good for us long-term.

02:12:24.540 | So you think about all these pings coming in.

02:12:26.420 | It's a lot of information, this text, that text,

02:12:28.460 | this text, this text.

02:12:29.900 | And what you're doing in your circuitry

02:12:32.180 | and over time evolutionarily

02:12:33.660 | is getting used to the multiplicity of relationships,

02:12:36.160 | the multiplicity of information.

02:12:37.740 | It's just more gratifying than one-on-one

02:12:41.100 | to the point that one-on-one conversation

02:12:43.980 | over text or even in person

02:12:47.460 | is gonna have so much more of a gap

02:12:49.380 | than it ever has been in terms of how slow,

02:12:53.780 | how low stim and how boring and awkward it is

02:12:58.780 | compared to, especially for kids who get this early,

02:13:03.440 | the constant information flow

02:13:05.320 | and gratification and stimulation.

02:13:08.060 | I think that's gonna have a profound impact,

02:13:10.260 | not right away, but over time.

02:13:12.380 | And if you add in social media and then if you add in AI,

02:13:15.340 | I mean, on the way humans just are even able

02:13:19.180 | to relate to each other.

02:13:20.700 | So yes, I think like this advancement in technology

02:13:25.500 | and what's happening,

02:13:27.100 | I think there's always been a trade-off, always,

02:13:29.500 | between how short-term gratifying something is

02:13:32.180 | and how long-term good something is for us.

02:13:34.380 | Because the things that are really good

02:13:35.960 | for humans long-term

02:13:37.340 | are the things that involve humans to tolerate frustration.

02:13:40.580 | I would say that is the most important skill,

02:13:41.980 | I think, for kids to learn.

02:13:44.100 | But the world more than ever is built now

02:13:48.420 | with insanely low frustration tolerance

02:13:50.500 | 'cause we're built for so much information,

02:13:52.940 | so much consumption and so much media gratification.

02:13:55.800 | This is actually, I think,

02:13:56.640 | the thing that isn't talked about with technology.

02:13:58.140 | It's why parenting has changed.

02:13:59.300 | It's why so much of parenting is about making kids happy

02:14:01.860 | and their lives easy

02:14:03.120 | because there's never been a generation of parents

02:14:05.700 | like my generation where our lives are just so much easier.

02:14:09.980 | We have so much less tolerance for our kids' tantrums

02:14:13.700 | because we're on our phones wanting our life to be easier.

02:14:16.580 | So we stop the tantrum.

02:14:18.060 | We make their life easier.

02:14:19.140 | We make them anxious.

02:14:19.980 | We make them fragile

02:14:21.220 | 'cause of our lowered frustration tolerance.

02:14:23.540 | So I don't know where we're landing here,

02:14:25.700 | but, and by the way, I text.

02:14:28.100 | Like, I'm not like a purist here.

02:14:29.700 | You know, I am a realist.

02:14:30.960 | I live in the world, you know?

02:14:32.600 | But I think it's profound how it's changing,

02:14:37.220 | human interaction and expectations and gratification.

02:14:40.860 | And my colleague, Anna Lembke, who wrote "Dopamine Nation,"

02:14:44.460 | cited some data that humans have more free time now

02:14:48.420 | across socioeconomic groups,

02:14:50.980 | more free time for everybody than ever before,

02:14:54.420 | more expectation of immediate gratification.

02:14:57.560 | And it's not just the texts that we're getting.

02:15:00.440 | It's, for some people, the texts that they're not getting.

02:15:03.380 | They're thinking about the people

02:15:04.360 | that they haven't heard back from, et cetera.

02:15:05.900 | I mean, the number of tethers, right, exactly.

02:15:08.660 | Like, the number of tethers is just astonishing.

02:15:13.360 | I had a conversation with somebody recently

02:15:17.020 | that popped to mind where it was a little bit,

02:15:20.100 | it was like a low friction one

02:15:21.980 | that ended in a really good place where I said,

02:15:24.620 | you know, the problem is, you know, I was talking about,

02:15:27.820 | there's a little bit of an age gap.

02:15:28.860 | And I said, you know, the problem is you think slow is low.

02:15:31.860 | Like, what I was saying was I like to just chill.

02:15:34.800 | This is something I haven't done enough of in my life

02:15:36.620 | 'cause I'm pretty ambitious person and always have been

02:15:39.300 | since I was little about everything.

02:15:42.340 | But I've learned that like slow isn't low.

02:15:46.180 | Like I love just like sitting down

02:15:47.860 | and like hanging out with the dog

02:15:50.220 | or just like slowing down.

02:15:53.940 | And it used to feel like slow was low.

02:15:56.260 | It used to feel like, oh, nothing's happening

02:15:57.860 | or this is depressing or it's boring.

02:16:00.740 | And I think in recent years

02:16:02.260 | that became more and more the case

02:16:03.700 | as I got more and more pulled into technology.

02:16:06.060 | And then I did a little bit

02:16:07.060 | of a technology distancing experiment, if you will.

02:16:09.820 | I have this wooden box that someone made for me

02:16:11.540 | and I put my phones in there.

02:16:12.820 | And it's so amazing how once you put the phone

02:16:15.380 | in a different container,

02:16:17.340 | it like completely changes the relationship to it.

02:16:19.460 | I don't get it, but anyway, again,

02:16:21.420 | physical barriers to take emotional steps,

02:16:24.060 | always a good idea.

02:16:25.060 | And I just realized like slow isn't low,

02:16:29.660 | like slow is awesome.

02:16:31.060 | So I totally agree that the circuits of our brain

02:16:33.840 | have now adapted to expect immediate gratification.

02:16:36.540 | I like to think, and maybe this is a false wish,

02:16:40.540 | but I like to think that there are components

02:16:44.540 | of our brain that are hardwired enough

02:16:46.420 | through tens or hundreds of thousands of years of evolution

02:16:50.260 | that might be able to recognize

02:16:52.820 | and appreciate the slow moments

02:16:54.820 | and not feel like slow is low,

02:16:56.860 | meaning slow is depressing.

02:16:58.220 | But I do think that if one is weaned in,

02:17:02.540 | raised in an environment where you expect things quickly,

02:17:06.060 | well then, it's gonna feel like the horse and cart

02:17:09.180 | compared to the car at some level.

02:17:11.660 | I do, I agree. - I think that's right.

02:17:12.720 | And I think for parents who have young kids,

02:17:15.740 | I think these are such powerful and empowering things

02:17:19.220 | to think about when your kids are young,

02:17:20.620 | because I think it's easy to think,

02:17:22.420 | oh, okay, so I'll deal with this when my kid gets a phone.

02:17:25.220 | It's the circuits around

02:17:29.100 | even how your kid will use the phone,

02:17:30.660 | how much you're gonna be able to set boundaries

02:17:32.460 | with your kid when they get a phone,

02:17:34.300 | all these have to do with the patterns early on, right?

02:17:37.060 | So if we go back to slow is good,

02:17:41.300 | frustration and frustration tolerance

02:17:44.060 | is the name of the game.

02:17:45.260 | It requires a lot of inconvenient moments

02:17:49.180 | that matter so much for how not only your kid learns

02:17:54.180 | to tolerate the frustration inherent in life,

02:17:57.180 | but I think this is really important,

02:17:58.640 | how your kid learns to feel capable.

02:18:01.680 | Kids only develop capability

02:18:04.520 | from watching themselves get through hard things.

02:18:07.220 | They don't develop capability by being successful ever.

02:18:09.940 | In some ways, it builds up this pressure and a fragility

02:18:13.340 | if that's been the only thing they have.

02:18:15.500 | And when we think about this whole generation

02:18:17.380 | who's so anxious, kind of so fragile,

02:18:20.140 | I really believe the antidote to anxiety is capability.

02:18:24.460 | And we, I'll give an example,

02:18:26.540 | like we steal our kids' capability

02:18:28.980 | all the time when they're young

02:18:30.860 | in the name of short-term convenience for everyone.

02:18:33.640 | So here's an example, like I remember this day,

02:18:36.100 | my oldest who's now 13, he was like three

02:18:38.460 | and he was really into puzzles when he was three.

02:18:41.060 | But puzzles are like really hard, right?

02:18:43.620 | He was working on it, something like I can't do it,

02:18:46.900 | you know, the classic whine,

02:18:48.660 | which I just want everyone to know,

02:18:49.780 | like no part of me is like, I love that sound.

02:18:52.620 | No, like nobody likes whining, okay?

02:18:57.340 | But to me, those are our like bang for our buck moments.

02:19:01.220 | You know, they're not our easy moments,

02:19:02.500 | they're our bang for our buck.

02:19:03.420 | My kid is gonna learn something

02:19:04.740 | about how to deal with situations

02:19:07.300 | they don't think they're capable of completing.

02:19:10.300 | That is such an important lesson.

02:19:13.380 | And I have a fork in the road,

02:19:14.420 | I can either do the puzzle for him,

02:19:16.500 | which gives me short-term convenience, stops the meltdown.

02:19:20.060 | But beyond frustration tolerance,

02:19:23.820 | like one of the things I really remember thinking

02:19:25.500 | when my kid was young is, if I do it for him,

02:19:29.340 | I'm stealing his capability.

02:19:33.180 | Because if he can get through this

02:19:37.140 | and kind of get to the point where he says,

02:19:39.460 | I did a puzzle I didn't think I could do, that's incredible.

02:19:43.700 | So I remember this 'cause it felt so, he's still whining,

02:19:48.660 | but there are these moments as a parent,

02:19:50.100 | and this is what I like to help parents with,

02:19:51.900 | our wins are not based on our kids' reactions.

02:19:54.340 | Our wins happen when you just know

02:19:56.140 | there's this amazing feeling you have as a parent,

02:19:58.460 | I know that was important, I know it.

02:20:01.060 | And I remember saying to him with this puzzle situation,

02:20:04.140 | sweetie, I'm not gonna do the puzzle for you.

02:20:06.980 | And I wanna tell you why.

02:20:08.300 | The feeling you get when you think you can't do something,

02:20:14.500 | kind of take a deep breath, maybe take a break,

02:20:17.220 | maybe even the next day, watch yourself do that thing

02:20:22.180 | is literally the best feeling in the world.

02:20:24.660 | It is the best feeling, it becomes addictive,

02:20:27.340 | and I will not take that feeling away from you

02:20:31.260 | because I believe you're gonna get it.

02:20:33.380 | I could cry.

02:20:34.220 | And one of the things, I feel like people hear the story,

02:20:38.300 | like, "Riley, Riley, okay, Becky, great."

02:20:40.380 | I do not do that all the time.

02:20:41.380 | Sometimes I finish the puzzle.

02:20:43.100 | But when we think about what we want

02:20:44.940 | for our kids later in life,

02:20:47.260 | it might be, no, I'm not getting you a phone yet.

02:20:49.580 | How a kid reacts to that situation,

02:20:52.340 | it's not just about a phone.

02:20:54.140 | It's kind of, well,

02:20:54.980 | have you always just done the thing for me?

02:20:57.100 | Have you always just given me what I want?

02:20:59.020 | Do I have any ability to feel like I can tolerate

02:21:02.340 | frustration and wait and figure things out?

02:21:05.700 | That all layers into how kids react to not getting a phone,

02:21:10.060 | how kids approach hard math problems,

02:21:12.340 | how kids do or do not sit down to start their English essay.

02:21:15.500 | That is difficult to do.

02:21:17.340 | And all that stuff, you can start building those skills

02:21:20.420 | in the teenage years, don't get me wrong.

02:21:22.540 | But the leg up your kid has at 14,

02:21:26.060 | when they've been basically building those life

02:21:28.500 | and academic skills from the start,

02:21:30.220 | and they've built their identity around capability,

02:21:33.980 | like, that's what I wanna give every parent

02:21:37.260 | and every kid in the world.

02:21:39.420 | - Yeah, it's awesome.

02:21:40.820 | I said it last time we spoke, I'll say it again.

02:21:42.900 | If you're thinking of adopting,

02:21:44.260 | I'd be happy to put myself up for adoption.

02:21:46.940 | It's such a beautiful philosophy and stance to take

02:21:50.500 | around effort and frustration.

02:21:51.900 | I mean, again, this isn't about my life,

02:21:54.060 | but I feel so blessed that came up in science

02:21:56.580 | where things take forever.

02:21:58.420 | You can work two years on a project

02:21:59.980 | and then discover you do the right control experiment,

02:22:02.380 | and you're like, we got nothing.

02:22:04.660 | Like, literally, we have nothing.

02:22:06.020 | - Yeah.

02:22:07.540 | - There wasn't, and there still isn't a tendency

02:22:09.740 | to publish what are called negative results,

02:22:11.340 | which aren't bad results,

02:22:12.300 | but where you basically got nothing.

02:22:13.700 | You can find a flaw in the reagents you're using,

02:22:16.140 | you get nothing, you're starting again.

02:22:18.060 | And to have that a few times,

02:22:21.140 | and to have some papers take two, three, four years

02:22:23.940 | to get accepted, other papers, six months.

02:22:25.620 | I'll tell you, the six months feels really short.

02:22:27.940 | These days we get so much immediate gratification.

02:22:31.700 | The other day I was staying at a hotel

02:22:33.020 | and I ordered food in.

02:22:36.460 | I don't do it that often.

02:22:37.900 | I was like, I really want like a poke bowl.

02:22:40.140 | There's that poke bowl place.

02:22:41.060 | I ordered, it was there in 11 minutes.

02:22:43.660 | I was like, whoa, like, this is so wild.

02:22:45.820 | I was like, I gotta be careful.

02:22:47.420 | Not 'cause I'll overeat poke bowls,

02:22:48.900 | you can only have so many poke bowls,

02:22:50.700 | but it's like, you just, it's there.

02:22:53.620 | - Convenience.

02:22:54.460 | - Yeah.

02:22:55.300 | - It's so, you know.

02:22:56.140 | - It's incredible.

02:22:56.980 | - I remember.

02:22:57.820 | - And sad and scary and exciting and all the things,

02:23:00.700 | you know, so I think having variable durations

02:23:04.380 | of effort reward in one's life

02:23:08.140 | and being able to see where like the latency is very short.

02:23:11.220 | Yes, social media, but you know, other things

02:23:13.980 | that where you have longer duration effort

02:23:15.860 | to reward contingencies.

02:23:17.620 | I'm sounding kind of, this is like nerd speak,

02:23:19.220 | but I've gone on record saying before,

02:23:20.820 | and I'll say again that, you know,

02:23:21.660 | dopamine that is achieved without effort preceding it

02:23:25.420 | is just be really careful.

02:23:27.700 | It doesn't matter if it's amphetamine, cocaine,

02:23:30.100 | social media, or anything else.

02:23:32.600 | You get used to the schedule.

02:23:36.460 | - That's right.

02:23:37.300 | - And I think we need to be able to tolerate and enjoy

02:23:40.300 | and lean into and savor variable schedules

02:23:43.820 | of effort and reward.

02:23:45.340 | - It's so interesting you say that.

02:23:46.500 | I have two thoughts that, number one,

02:23:47.580 | when I think about the puzzle situation,

02:23:49.660 | that's like effort, 'cause effort, effort, effort,

02:23:52.900 | struggle, deep breath, effort, effort, nope,

02:23:55.420 | that's not it, effort, effort,

02:23:56.500 | and then you get the dopamine.

02:23:57.940 | That circuit, I just always think,

02:24:00.140 | that is such a benefit to my kid later in life.

02:24:04.580 | It's kind of the opposite of, you know,

02:24:06.660 | which we all do sometimes, but if it's the only circuit,

02:24:10.180 | being on your iPad all the time as a little kid

02:24:12.500 | and the no effort, all the dopamine.

02:24:15.020 | - Well, I think about it as a friend

02:24:16.620 | used to call it years ago, birthday money.

02:24:18.340 | There's one time each year,

02:24:19.780 | okay, maybe a couple because of the holidays,

02:24:21.660 | when you're supposed to get presents just for being you.

02:24:24.960 | It's called your birthday, right?

02:24:27.300 | Or if you're a kid, you know, or whatever,

02:24:29.180 | holidays are where we celebrate kids by giving presents

02:24:31.760 | or we celebrate each other.

02:24:32.600 | But every other day, you're not supposed to get rewards

02:24:35.340 | necessarily just because, not just for being you.

02:24:37.960 | The rewards are out there in life and appreciating things.

02:24:40.360 | I'm not trying to be too stoic here,

02:24:42.220 | but there's only one day each year

02:24:44.060 | where you get literally presents just for being you.

02:24:46.820 | The other stuff is supposed to require effort.

02:24:49.100 | - Yeah, and struggle.

02:24:50.380 | I think, you know, it's really interesting.

02:24:52.180 | My second had a lot of speech issues when she was younger

02:24:56.540 | and I kind of noticed it, like at a certain age,

02:24:58.380 | you're supposed to be building sounds and words

02:25:00.180 | and she was replacing, like as soon as she had a new sound,

02:25:02.900 | she lost one and had a sense something was going on.

02:25:05.420 | She had a pretty serious speech apraxia.

02:25:07.940 | She had to go to speech therapy three days a week, right?

02:25:11.360 | For probably a year.

02:25:12.440 | She now, you wouldn't know.

02:25:14.240 | But it was interesting, I remember at that time,

02:25:15.820 | my older one, probably five,

02:25:17.500 | maybe she was two or three and six.

02:25:19.500 | And I remember someone saying to me like,

02:25:21.660 | oh, about my daughter, like, oh, poor her kind of,

02:25:23.820 | you know, it's like a lot.

02:25:25.260 | And I don't think I said this, but it's so interesting.

02:25:28.540 | I remember thinking, she's way better off than my son.

02:25:32.300 | If I'm gonna worry about one of my kids right now,

02:25:33.980 | which I'm not worried about either, I'd worry about my son.

02:25:37.780 | His early years were so linear, so without struggle.

02:25:42.480 | Like she's gonna have an early experience

02:25:44.660 | of struggling, working hard.

02:25:48.220 | She won't remember it with her words,

02:25:50.380 | but that circuitry, which are important memories,

02:25:53.080 | ones we don't remember with our words,

02:25:54.700 | ones that our bodies remember,

02:25:56.420 | she has such an early experience

02:25:58.860 | with watching herself struggle and get to the other side.

02:26:02.160 | Like I would wish that for every child.

02:26:05.860 | And so I also think, I wanna also share that story

02:26:08.900 | because I think parents who have kids

02:26:10.460 | who have those early issues, it's so easy.

02:26:13.460 | Oh, I actually think it's really empowering

02:26:15.620 | to do a complete 180, to be like, wait,

02:26:17.620 | I'm not gonna fix this right away.

02:26:19.260 | I'm gonna support my child.

02:26:20.380 | I'm gonna let them know I believe in them.

02:26:22.220 | I'm gonna let them know I see a version of them

02:26:23.900 | that's gonna get through this.

02:26:24.880 | They're gonna still struggle.

02:26:26.180 | And that is actually gonna be like the best foundation

02:26:29.340 | and almost like the best leg up.

02:26:31.420 | - Now, I have a friend, very, very successful,

02:26:34.820 | who told me that he wasn't until he was in his forties,

02:26:38.500 | that he had like kind of a major difficult life,

02:26:42.540 | a major business disappointment, and it almost crushed him.

02:26:45.980 | But he had never had that before.

02:26:49.340 | He had been so successful over and over again.

02:26:52.300 | It was fun for me to talk to my dad recently on the podcast

02:26:55.660 | because we haven't had a conversation like that ever.

02:26:59.060 | And we were talking about sort of mistakes that one makes

02:27:01.540 | and in the context of work and et cetera.

02:27:05.180 | And he said, it's still ringing in my ears.

02:27:07.260 | He said, well, you know,

02:27:08.100 | those humiliations are actually good for us.

02:27:10.380 | He called them humiliations.

02:27:12.380 | I was like, really?

02:27:13.220 | And he was like, yeah, you know, they humble us

02:27:15.300 | and they keep us thoughtful about what we're doing next.

02:27:18.340 | And I was like, yeah, but it was kind of wild to hear that.

02:27:21.420 | I don't know why I need to hear it externally

02:27:23.120 | because I know it's true.

02:27:24.060 | I knew it was true, but yeah, it's not just making mistakes.

02:27:27.580 | Like sometimes, listen, I'm fully against bullying

02:27:31.340 | where I understand how that can be very destructive,

02:27:34.020 | but like there are gonna be times

02:27:35.740 | when we're gonna feel humiliated.

02:27:38.180 | And to be able to bounce back from that is pretty awesome.

02:27:42.180 | I actually think that builds character strength, I do.

02:27:45.460 | - Yeah, and I think, you know,

02:27:46.580 | this is like a great lead into parenting.

02:27:49.160 | I hear this all the time where someone will say,

02:27:51.620 | I don't know if my kid's being bullied,

02:27:52.920 | but like they're, you know, they were told,

02:27:55.620 | you can't play basketball with us.

02:27:56.860 | You're the worst basketball player in the grade,

02:27:58.580 | something like that, right?

02:28:00.220 | Where the way I work with parents, right,

02:28:02.460 | is again, assuming this isn't chronic,

02:28:05.700 | I don't think step one is calling the school.

02:28:07.780 | I don't think step one is calling the other parent, right?

02:28:11.400 | If you zoom out, you're right.

02:28:12.740 | Like, I don't think a kid's gonna be called

02:28:14.340 | the worst basketball player, you know,

02:28:16.300 | over and over in the course of the next couple of decades,

02:28:18.600 | but they will be called something, they'll be left out.

02:28:21.800 | Or even if nothing happens, you know what's gonna happen?

02:28:24.180 | They're gonna feel less than in a group,

02:28:26.260 | like probably a million times, I do, right, still.

02:28:29.880 | So we have this almost opportunity of like, okay,

02:28:32.580 | well, what skills would be useful when my kid is 18 and 30?

02:28:36.740 | And actually the struggle, again, is my opportunity.

02:28:40.300 | I was thinking, my kids are in my home for 18 years.

02:28:43.860 | I, this sounds like sick,

02:28:45.740 | and I don't know if I really mean this,

02:28:47.260 | but I'm gonna say it.

02:28:48.180 | I almost hope they have all the variations

02:28:51.140 | of struggles they're gonna have later on.

02:28:54.140 | 'Cause then at least I can kind of get in it with them

02:28:57.860 | and like build some skills

02:28:59.620 | and help them see that they can manage.

02:29:02.360 | And then I feel like those bumps are gonna happen, right?

02:29:04.940 | I guess it's like pilots, don't they?

02:29:06.940 | When they have simulations,

02:29:08.400 | there's no way they simulate perfect flights

02:29:10.920 | and say, you're ready to fly.

02:29:12.760 | They simulate all the issues

02:29:15.320 | so that a pilot can learn the right controls,

02:29:18.980 | and then they're really prepared.

02:29:20.240 | They don't take away the issues.

02:29:22.480 | - Right.

02:29:23.320 | No, I love the analogy of flying.

02:29:25.480 | 'Cause I'll never forget driving in really thick fog

02:29:28.700 | for the first time.

02:29:29.540 | This happens if you grow up in the Bay Area.

02:29:31.640 | Just being able to see one reflector at a time

02:29:33.480 | and being terrified.

02:29:34.700 | Now, like driving in fog never feels great,

02:29:38.660 | but I've been there.

02:29:39.760 | It's like, it's a familiar feeling.

02:29:41.800 | And yeah, I've been thinking a lot these days

02:29:44.460 | about this whole thing about proficiency

02:29:46.620 | and our expectation of kids nowadays,

02:29:50.920 | that we have been told for a long time

02:29:53.500 | that we need to guard against kids

02:29:55.740 | feeling terrible about themselves.

02:29:57.460 | On the other hand, we want them to be proficient.

02:29:59.700 | And what you're really talking about here,

02:30:00.780 | if I understand correctly, is proficiency at being human,

02:30:04.380 | at being really good at certain things,

02:30:05.620 | less good at others.

02:30:07.060 | I can also tell any kid, 'cause I was this kid,

02:30:10.260 | like in a group of musicians, I'm the least proficient.

02:30:12.860 | I mean, you really just don't.

02:30:14.260 | Talk about wanting someone to do nothing.

02:30:16.160 | I'm best off not even playing the triangle, okay?

02:30:18.540 | Like just doing nothing would be the best thing

02:30:20.380 | I could do to any musical effort.

02:30:22.700 | It's just, but I realized that at some point,

02:30:25.220 | even though every kid in my school played an instrument

02:30:28.460 | and they had like the youth symphony

02:30:29.700 | and all that kind of stuff,

02:30:31.420 | because it was also a time when I could just kind of relax.

02:30:34.260 | Like you don't have to be, certainly best at everything,

02:30:38.580 | but I also believe that in order to really find

02:30:40.500 | what you're kind of quote unquote meant for,

02:30:42.660 | you have to try a bunch of things

02:30:43.900 | and find out what you're never going to even approach

02:30:47.740 | partially skilled at, but you still have to try.

02:30:50.180 | I guess that's the point.

02:30:51.020 | So on the one hand, I guess I'm saying do nothing.

02:30:53.180 | On the other hand, I'm saying you still have to try.

02:30:54.540 | I guess you have to try to find out

02:30:55.640 | that you're really as bad at music as I found out I am.

02:30:58.100 | - Maybe, or I think we're also talking--

02:30:58.940 | - I'm good with it, I'm good with it.

02:31:00.580 | I love music, but I don't need to play it.

02:31:02.260 | - But I think then what you're saying

02:31:03.300 | is you're able to separate your identity from any behavior.

02:31:08.020 | Being bad at music doesn't mean you're a bad person.

02:31:10.740 | And I think anyone hears that and they're like, obviously,

02:31:12.900 | but we conflate those two things 90% of the time, right?

02:31:17.900 | That's why we really care about winning at Scrabble

02:31:20.940 | is like to some degree, we think it means we're smart

02:31:23.100 | and everyone's like, you know,

02:31:24.540 | versus I'm probably the same level of smart

02:31:27.040 | whether I win at Scrabble or lose at Scrabble, right?

02:31:29.540 | And to me, that's what confidence is.

02:31:31.300 | It's not feeling like you're the best at something.

02:31:33.900 | It's feeling like it's okay to be you

02:31:36.380 | when you're not the best at something, right?

02:31:38.660 | It's feeling at home with yourself.

02:31:40.660 | And to me, feeling at home with yourself is,

02:31:43.980 | first of all, it's an amazing internal motivator

02:31:45.820 | 'cause you get to also figure out

02:31:46.660 | what you're really passionate about, right?

02:31:49.900 | And yeah, learning to participate in things

02:31:52.900 | and even have joy in things that you're not great at.

02:31:55.620 | Again, these are things I think our kids really can learn,

02:31:58.380 | not from lessons, not from a textbook,

02:32:01.520 | not really from a teacher.

02:32:02.940 | They learn it from what we model.

02:32:04.500 | It's actually interesting.

02:32:05.320 | We play a ton of board games, my family.

02:32:07.340 | And I'm just, I think they're like the antidote

02:32:09.380 | to everything on a screen.

02:32:10.700 | So we have a million board games.

02:32:12.340 | I'm the resident.

02:32:13.180 | If anyone ever needs a recommendation

02:32:14.820 | for a good board game. - What's your favorite

02:32:15.660 | board game to play as a family?

02:32:17.180 | - Okay, I love Sushi Go.

02:32:19.700 | I don't know it, but I'll check it out.

02:32:20.540 | - Sushi Go Party is the better version.

02:32:22.220 | It's actually a really great adult game too.

02:32:23.700 | It's very strategic.

02:32:24.780 | We play code names.

02:32:26.820 | We play a lot of board games.

02:32:28.100 | We play Boggle.

02:32:28.980 | We play Ghost.

02:32:29.820 | We play Scrabble.

02:32:31.700 | We play Rummikub.

02:32:33.820 | But the game I was gonna say that we also play a lot of

02:32:36.300 | that I love is Scattergories, okay?

02:32:38.740 | So have you ever played that?

02:32:39.580 | - Yeah, that's a fun game.

02:32:41.420 | - Whatever part of the brain is good at generating

02:32:43.820 | a lot of different things from a single letter

02:32:45.780 | must be very small in my brain.

02:32:47.260 | I am so bad at Scattergories.

02:32:50.020 | I mean, my kids are all pretty quick.

02:32:51.740 | I lose to everyone, my seven-year-old included.

02:32:53.780 | I'm horrible.

02:32:54.620 | It actually is a game I suggest often.

02:32:57.060 | I'm like, let's play Scattergories.

02:32:59.220 | And I think that's actually so powerful for our kids.

02:33:03.820 | I mean, I think a lot of us, if we look back,

02:33:06.260 | we think like, it's one of the reasons my parents

02:33:07.980 | didn't really play with me or do things.

02:33:10.020 | They felt like they weren't good at it.

02:33:11.500 | You know, like probably, right?

02:33:13.860 | To demonstrate to your kid, I can choose something.

02:33:16.980 | I can have joy in something.

02:33:18.780 | I can want to do something that I'm not good at.

02:33:22.980 | That is, again, gonna be more powerful to your kid

02:33:25.260 | than sitting down and saying,

02:33:27.140 | this is what we think is gonna help kids.

02:33:28.460 | It's okay to do things that you're not good at.

02:33:31.020 | You and I know, that's like logical words in the brain.

02:33:34.140 | That's not an experience they're building or internalizing.

02:33:37.740 | Kids learn from stories, from experiences.

02:33:40.700 | And so I think that's one way in terms of

02:33:44.260 | how do I help my kids be confident,

02:33:46.300 | but also just be at home with themselves

02:33:48.740 | and do things they're not best at.

02:33:50.900 | Probably the best way to do that

02:33:52.780 | is to model it over and over to your kids.

02:33:55.940 | - I love it.

02:33:56.780 | We're back to theory versus practice.

02:33:58.700 | - Yes, I'm big on practice, maybe on both.

02:34:01.980 | - I feel like as long as there are kids and adults

02:34:04.980 | that seem, I want to emphasize seem, to do everything well,

02:34:09.740 | you know, the athlete, academic, you know, musician,

02:34:15.020 | you know, good dancer, like as long as, you know,

02:34:18.420 | charming with other people,

02:34:19.580 | as long as those people exist or seem to exist,

02:34:22.980 | we're going to have to all overcome our sense that,

02:34:27.660 | you know, we should be at least partially good

02:34:30.100 | at a wide variety of things, maybe not everything.

02:34:34.140 | - Do you think those people exist?

02:34:35.460 | - No, I know they don't exist.

02:34:36.680 | I know that there are people that apparently are like that.

02:34:40.140 | - They're fakers.

02:34:41.220 | - Well, I don't know, you know, I will say that,

02:34:44.540 | you know, and this is, I don't get paid to say

02:34:48.100 | positive things about the university I work for or not,

02:34:52.340 | but the, I will say occasionally I'll meet a student

02:34:56.140 | from Stanford and I'm like, goodness gracious,

02:35:00.100 | like these, this kid, right, can apparently do everything.

02:35:04.460 | Like they're an athlete and they're a musician.

02:35:06.260 | They have all these things that there are those people.

02:35:09.700 | And I will say, but this is important,

02:35:13.740 | the pressure that the perception of those people

02:35:17.220 | creates on them without fail brings them to immense

02:35:23.100 | challenge in their life, if not then later.

02:35:26.380 | I've seen it every single time.

02:35:27.740 | I know because I grew up in the town

02:35:29.900 | where I'm now a professor and I went to school

02:35:32.420 | with many people who ended up there or, you know,

02:35:34.980 | other places like that.

02:35:36.660 | And of course there are people like that

02:35:37.920 | in every environment.

02:35:39.260 | They are outliers.

02:35:40.340 | They tend to be very salient.

02:35:41.980 | We tend to notice them and they create this, you know,

02:35:46.780 | false internal pressure.

02:35:48.860 | This is the reason I raise it.

02:35:49.940 | And I want to say it's not like they eventually, you know,

02:35:52.820 | fail and dissolve into a puddle of their own tears.

02:35:54.900 | Like hopefully they're resilient

02:35:56.700 | and they push forward in life.

02:35:57.820 | And some of them do amazing things

02:35:59.260 | and some of them do less amazing things.

02:36:01.380 | But the point is that there are people among our species

02:36:04.420 | that seem to do many, many things very, very well.

02:36:07.260 | And I think when we hold ourselves to that standard,

02:36:10.900 | we suffer and we hold ourselves back.

02:36:14.780 | I think that, I believe, I just have a central belief

02:36:17.220 | that we all do have some unique gifts

02:36:19.360 | that we're meant to bring to our life and to the world.

02:36:22.340 | And it shows up in different forms.

02:36:23.820 | And one of the worst things we can do

02:36:25.620 | in trying to find that and express it

02:36:27.580 | is trying to be really good at everything.

02:36:29.660 | I just think that's the most poisonous idea

02:36:34.340 | in the American mindset

02:36:36.580 | that we're supposed to be really good at everything.

02:36:38.140 | On the other end, I personally believe

02:36:40.120 | that we should try a variety of things

02:36:42.460 | so that we experience frustration and fail

02:36:44.780 | and eventually find what it is

02:36:45.980 | that is we're "meant to do."

02:36:49.140 | I do, but I feel also very fortunate

02:36:51.260 | that I was never really pushed

02:36:52.540 | to be excellent at everything.

02:36:54.100 | I have terrible hand-eye coordination,

02:36:56.100 | but I'm pretty good at sports with my feet.

02:36:57.460 | But when I say pretty good, I mean passable.

02:37:00.140 | So I gave up on the idea

02:37:01.140 | of becoming a professional athlete very, very young.

02:37:03.740 | So I think we have to know that we have to play games

02:37:05.460 | with our hands and our feet in order to figure that out.

02:37:08.260 | - Yeah, and I guess, you know,

02:37:11.320 | we were talking about this maybe before we started,

02:37:13.280 | but I don't know, I'm trying to think why this is,

02:37:15.920 | but I tend not to put anyone on a pedestal.

02:37:20.260 | I feel like, and maybe part of it is,

02:37:22.920 | in part of my private practice for years,

02:37:25.160 | I saw, maybe I saw the Stanford grads

02:37:27.720 | who were then living in New York.

02:37:29.040 | And they weren't literally from Stanford,

02:37:32.520 | but I'd have all these late 20-year-olds

02:37:35.040 | and their pedigree all looked the same.

02:37:37.920 | Top of their class, Ivy League,

02:37:40.560 | Goldman Sachs, this, MBA.

02:37:43.480 | And so many of them had the same

02:37:47.920 | insane anxiety and emptiness.

02:37:52.600 | I still remember the way one of them

02:37:54.000 | described how they felt,

02:37:55.120 | and she was brilliant with her words.

02:37:57.600 | And she said, "I walk around and it's like,

02:38:01.360 | "when I'm with people and doing things and at work,

02:38:03.840 | "it's like there's a ton of color.

02:38:05.680 | "When I'm alone, I feel like I am

02:38:08.600 | "an empty room with white walls."

02:38:10.840 | - Oh goodness, that's very sad.

02:38:13.000 | - Very sad. - Very sad.

02:38:14.280 | - It actually has a happy ending,

02:38:15.800 | which is really, or has a nuanced ending,

02:38:18.400 | but a happy ending where

02:38:19.560 | she feel like, it's actually,

02:38:25.760 | I was actually saying this to a friend,

02:38:27.000 | 'cause it actually relates to my own childhood.

02:38:28.380 | I feel like I've grown a lot, had my therapy,

02:38:32.780 | and I feel like when I was younger,

02:38:35.320 | I was really hard-driving

02:38:38.200 | and really somewhat people-pleasing.

02:38:41.960 | And me and my friend who are both like that,

02:38:44.920 | were like that, have kids who aren't really like that,

02:38:47.800 | and they're amazing kids, and they do so well,

02:38:50.120 | and they have this internal confidence.

02:38:51.360 | But sometimes we joke, we're like,

02:38:53.640 | but there's nothing that will drive you

02:38:55.900 | like feeling not good enough.

02:38:57.900 | There's nothing that drives you

02:38:59.120 | like feeling like every test score defines yourself more.

02:39:04.120 | And it's so sick, right?

02:39:06.000 | Because we're almost like conflicted with our kids,

02:39:07.860 | like they're all great kids, they're responsible,

02:39:10.800 | but they almost have a little bit more inner contentment.

02:39:13.840 | But I think about that young woman I saw

02:39:19.020 | and how at work she felt amazing until,

02:39:23.580 | didn't happen until she was 28.

02:39:27.180 | She didn't get the promotion

02:39:28.300 | she thought she was getting.

02:39:30.020 | And then, I mean.

02:39:32.260 | - She never failed before.

02:39:34.740 | - And it's not only the never failure,

02:39:36.780 | when your internal sense of self is built outside in,

02:39:41.780 | which you actually can do

02:39:44.400 | if you have a lot of accomplishments.

02:39:46.660 | It works for a while.

02:39:48.780 | But as soon as that stops working,

02:39:51.940 | if you have nothing,

02:39:54.600 | you feel like in an empty room with white walls.

02:39:58.460 | What's really compelling about the therapy

02:40:01.280 | over the course of a number of years is I still remember

02:40:04.560 | over COVID, we were then Zooming

02:40:06.800 | and she'd had her own place

02:40:09.080 | and she actually went through this process

02:40:11.520 | and she was very artistic of painting the walls

02:40:14.460 | in her actual room,

02:40:15.520 | talking about making something concrete.

02:40:17.820 | And like kind of in the way that she was feeling

02:40:19.820 | a lot more lit up inside out instead of outside in.

02:40:24.040 | - That's great.

02:40:25.200 | - But I just think,

02:40:26.480 | I guess I know myself too.

02:40:27.680 | And maybe this is part of why I try

02:40:28.960 | not to put people on a pedestal.

02:40:30.400 | Maybe it's as I'm talking,

02:40:31.440 | people are like, oh, Becky gets it right with her kids

02:40:33.200 | and she's doing this.

02:40:34.040 | And like, whatever I can share,

02:40:36.280 | like that is part of my story.

02:40:38.480 | I also yell at my kids.

02:40:39.840 | I also feel like sometimes I'm on my phone too much.

02:40:42.000 | I feel like my life is out of balance.

02:40:44.020 | I don't get to see my friends nearly the way I used to.

02:40:46.080 | They probably often are like, where's Becky?

02:40:48.040 | Why is she not, you know, not only responding to texts

02:40:50.160 | but remembering my birthday or whatever I forget.

02:40:52.960 | And that doesn't feel good to me

02:40:54.160 | because I used to do more of that.

02:40:55.880 | And so no one has it all figured out.

02:40:59.360 | Like humans, I think it's a remarkably complicated,

02:41:02.940 | remarkably imperfect.

02:41:04.280 | We all have parts of us that feel really good.

02:41:07.120 | And we, maybe some of us play up those parts

02:41:09.520 | more than others.

02:41:10.840 | And we all have parts of us that feel confusing,

02:41:15.840 | maybe have some shame, feel, you know,

02:41:20.600 | I don't know, just more complicated.

02:41:23.440 | And so at least want to get that out there about myself.

02:41:27.400 | - Oh, I really appreciate you sharing.

02:41:29.040 | And I want to be clear if I was at all unclear

02:41:32.640 | that I certainly don't hold up these ultra performers

02:41:36.920 | in all domains on a pedestal.

02:41:38.280 | I think they're in a very precarious place

02:41:41.040 | inside and outside.

02:41:42.440 | They've essentially given up all their power and agency

02:41:44.760 | to one incoming failure.

02:41:46.880 | And maybe they never experienced it

02:41:48.160 | and they get to the end without having done,

02:41:49.400 | but what a terrible way to live anyway.

02:41:51.560 | I've always looked up since I was little

02:41:53.600 | to people that really took a unique path.

02:41:56.760 | I've always found that they, yes,

02:42:00.040 | accomplished tremendous things and they have interesting,

02:42:03.620 | sometimes painful flaws.

02:42:04.920 | Like I'm a huge fan of the late neurologist

02:42:08.040 | and writer Oliver Sacks.

02:42:09.280 | Very, very incredible man, very complicated life.

02:42:11.920 | - Incredible.

02:42:12.760 | - You know, if you read his books, his autobiography,

02:42:14.680 | which I highly recommend everybody do

02:42:17.400 | if you're interested in science and just animals

02:42:20.900 | and a life uniquely lived.

02:42:23.800 | He's a really good example.

02:42:24.640 | And there are a bunch of other examples

02:42:25.640 | that are meaningful to me.

02:42:27.240 | Certainly not somebody who, you know,

02:42:28.720 | he couldn't do an experiment to save his life.

02:42:31.100 | He was moved out of multiple universities and places,

02:42:34.720 | you know, a very, very complicated character.

02:42:37.520 | Had a methamphetamine addiction,

02:42:39.100 | was a closet homosexual, came out later in life

02:42:42.400 | and was then at long periods of time on his own.

02:42:45.160 | And anyway, I've had a great relationship later in life.

02:42:49.160 | Very interesting person.

02:42:51.880 | Became that way and found his passion

02:42:55.380 | by realizing how terrible he was at certain things,

02:42:58.620 | including certain branches of medicine.

02:43:00.840 | So I think that trying many things

02:43:03.040 | and being really realistic about whether or not

02:43:06.040 | something's for us or not is the key.

02:43:09.000 | But then I guess the question becomes,

02:43:11.000 | and this must be so hard from the perspective of parenting,

02:43:13.000 | but also just in terms of guiding ourselves

02:43:14.680 | through life is, you know,

02:43:16.200 | how much friction do we experience before we say,

02:43:18.320 | you know what?

02:43:19.160 | Like, I'm not a musician and I'm cool with that.

02:43:22.340 | I love music, but I'm going to put my efforts

02:43:25.080 | into these other things.

02:43:25.960 | And, you know, this thing comes more easily for me.

02:43:28.080 | There, you know, I do think we have a lot

02:43:29.360 | of natural tendencies and I feel like,

02:43:30.840 | especially in the United States,

02:43:32.040 | there's been this complicated relationship

02:43:34.120 | with parenting and education,

02:43:35.500 | whereby we don't want to push people to their own,

02:43:39.360 | you know, like suffering and demise,

02:43:41.320 | but we also have to avoid not pushing them

02:43:43.560 | because then they don't ever find

02:43:45.440 | what they are proficient in

02:43:46.960 | and they don't learn that overcoming friction thing.

02:43:50.280 | So it's tricky.

02:43:52.000 | I do believe everyone has a unique expression

02:43:54.200 | of themselves in life, whatever that is.

02:43:56.040 | It doesn't have to be in professional life,

02:43:57.360 | but you have to try a lot of different things.

02:43:59.600 | And, you know, how, at what point you bail out.

02:44:03.320 | I mean, I've had few in my lab,

02:44:05.400 | but I've spoken to graduate students and postdocs

02:44:07.080 | where I had to say, you know what?

02:44:08.920 | I actually had this conversation with a postdoc.

02:44:10.400 | I was like, you know what?

02:44:11.240 | You're a really good scientist.

02:44:12.520 | You're never going to be a professor.

02:44:14.160 | Let's get you a job in biotech.

02:44:16.080 | And they were like, oh, they thought their whole life

02:44:18.080 | they were going to be a professor.

02:44:18.960 | I'm like, you're not.

02:44:20.320 | And the data are the following, which point to that.

02:44:23.280 | And it's kind of devastating,

02:44:24.360 | but then years later they thanked me

02:44:26.440 | or they thanked me in that case.

02:44:27.800 | - Yeah.

02:44:28.640 | - A few others probably cursed me, but.

02:44:30.640 | So how do you know when to keep pushing your kid

02:44:35.040 | to even engage in something?

02:44:38.120 | Like maybe they're the kid that always

02:44:41.520 | is picked last for the team,

02:44:42.640 | but you know, they should play sports.

02:44:44.600 | - So I guess my first reaction is I'm reacting

02:44:47.800 | to the word pushing.

02:44:48.680 | 'Cause I'm not sure that's the,

02:44:50.920 | like the verb I would think about.

02:44:54.360 | Because I think the idea of pushing your kid,

02:44:56.080 | even like how much do I push?

02:44:57.640 | There's a lot about us there is like, is that my desire?

02:45:01.520 | - I guess I grew up in a town where a lot of kids got pushed.

02:45:03.600 | - Oh, I mean, I grew up in a town where every kid got pushed.

02:45:06.120 | So maybe that's why I know something about it, right?

02:45:08.800 | I mean, I think we see this all the time

02:45:10.080 | and it goes back to actually what side of the tennis court,

02:45:12.400 | like whose feelings are whose?

02:45:13.640 | Like, is this my unlived dreams as a athlete in my youth?

02:45:18.640 | Or is this actually about my kids' soccer skills?

02:45:22.120 | You know, I think parents watching their kids playing sports

02:45:25.520 | is a prime example of am I living out my unfulfilled dreams

02:45:30.520 | and projecting that onto my daughter?

02:45:34.400 | Or does my daughter like soccer?

02:45:36.520 | And like, how can I really differentiate those, right?

02:45:40.080 | I think actually though, making it back to that,

02:45:42.320 | a lot of this actually goes back to frustration tolerance

02:45:45.240 | and why it matters so much to me.

02:45:48.280 | Like my approach to teaching frustration tolerance,

02:45:51.560 | which is like a hidden gem we have here at "Couldn't Decide",

02:45:54.920 | I really want, I want it to be in every school.

02:45:58.120 | I think it needs to be in every school

02:45:59.440 | and I want to describe it to you, okay?

02:46:02.200 | So I literally have this graph, it's helpful.

02:46:04.160 | And I know you like to write things down too

02:46:05.280 | to make it concrete.

02:46:06.200 | We're like, point one is not knowing how to do something.

02:46:10.560 | Okay?

02:46:11.400 | And point two, which is very far away,

02:46:13.760 | is let's say knowing how to do it or being very proficient.

02:46:16.960 | This could be soccer.

02:46:18.720 | I think a good example is reading.

02:46:20.800 | Okay?

02:46:21.640 | Like you, everybody starts out not knowing how to read.

02:46:24.720 | And let's say not everybody,

02:46:26.240 | but a lot of people learn how to read.

02:46:28.840 | The space between not knowing and knowing,

02:46:34.080 | I call the learning space.

02:46:36.640 | It has a name and it's helpful to know

02:46:38.200 | where you are in a map.

02:46:39.320 | And the learning space has one feeling

02:46:43.160 | that you're supposed to have, frustration.

02:46:45.800 | That is the feeling you're supposed to have.

02:46:50.160 | And we have this idea that we get from not knowing

02:46:54.160 | to knowing like this.

02:46:57.160 | - It's because of those damn "Star Wars" movies.

02:46:59.560 | And, oh no, actually "Star Wars"

02:47:00.760 | incorporated some frustration, but it's because of movies.

02:47:03.840 | Boom, you're supposed to just have the skill

02:47:05.640 | 'cause you picked up the rock or the sword

02:47:07.440 | or the pen or the wand.

02:47:09.560 | - And now it's because if you think about the circuitry

02:47:12.400 | that kids get used to with dopamine

02:47:14.800 | and the space between wanting and having in general is low.

02:47:19.800 | Because when you don't know something, you want to know it.

02:47:23.360 | Here, you do know it.

02:47:24.880 | Our tolerance and our kids' tolerance

02:47:28.600 | for wanting and not having is so low

02:47:32.120 | that what's so sad is the learning space

02:47:35.640 | has gotten massively compressed and people fear frustration.

02:47:39.400 | This image, when I've gone over this with kids

02:47:41.320 | and even teachers, I know teachers

02:47:42.560 | who teach this in their class.

02:47:43.720 | Okay, today we're gonna learn this new thing.

02:47:45.560 | We're gonna learn whatever it is,

02:47:47.960 | how to read a short word.

02:47:49.720 | Everybody in this class is here, not knowing.

02:47:53.440 | Everybody in this class is going to get here.

02:47:56.640 | And probably today, most of us,

02:47:59.600 | and you can actually do it in a map,

02:48:00.520 | are gonna be right here.

02:48:01.640 | What does this say?

02:48:02.720 | The learning space.

02:48:03.760 | How are we supposed to feel

02:48:06.080 | when we're in the learning space?

02:48:07.360 | The class can say, frustrated.

02:48:09.640 | Okay, here's an interesting assignment,

02:48:11.960 | different than you think.

02:48:13.000 | The goal today is not to tell me

02:48:15.040 | if you can read the letters that are in front of you.

02:48:18.200 | I want you to raise your hand when you feel frustrated,

02:48:21.640 | which feels like this.

02:48:22.480 | Oh, I can't do it.

02:48:23.720 | Because I'm gonna come up to you

02:48:25.040 | and I'm gonna give you a high five.

02:48:26.280 | And I'm gonna say, you are in the learning space.

02:48:28.360 | You are learning.

02:48:29.280 | How amazing is that?

02:48:30.520 | Like, Andrew, I really believe

02:48:31.640 | this has the power to change learning.

02:48:34.760 | Because then when we talk about proficiency,

02:48:36.640 | or when we talk about years from now,

02:48:39.240 | my kid is saying, this happens all the time.

02:48:40.680 | I get questions about this all the time.

02:48:42.520 | My kid says they want to do whatever it is.

02:48:44.760 | It could be a coding class.

02:48:46.520 | It could be a lacrosse class.

02:48:48.440 | And they do it once.

02:48:49.480 | And then they always come home and they say,

02:48:51.240 | I want to do it, I quit.

02:48:52.600 | Or maybe they're on a swim team and they want to quit.

02:48:55.200 | Do I let my kid quit?

02:48:56.520 | Right?

02:48:58.080 | To me, the question is actually like,

02:49:00.600 | most likely none of our kids are gonna be Olympic swimmers

02:49:05.040 | or like professional basketball players.

02:49:06.520 | I think about this a lot with youth sports.

02:49:08.160 | The whole goal in my mind for most people with youth sports,

02:49:11.000 | not everyone, but most,

02:49:12.840 | is learning how to deal with frustration,

02:49:15.160 | learning how to do things you thought you couldn't do,

02:49:17.720 | character, sharing, being a good teammate,

02:49:20.880 | sportsmanship, right?

02:49:22.320 | All those things are hard skills to learn.

02:49:23.800 | So the reason I'm signing my kid up for basketball

02:49:25.840 | is actually just 'cause it's like a good medium

02:49:27.560 | for all those things.

02:49:29.120 | And so I want to be sure that if my kid is quitting,

02:49:33.560 | it's not because they're escaping

02:49:35.320 | the very, very natural learning space

02:49:38.040 | that is so important to being in life.

02:49:42.000 | And this happened actually,

02:49:42.840 | my oldest wanted to quit baseball.

02:49:44.760 | He'd played for years and he wanted to quit.

02:49:47.440 | And the conversation we ended up having was,

02:49:51.280 | look, let's wait to the end of the season.

02:49:54.240 | Like, and this goes back to values.

02:49:56.000 | It's not we don't quit, but like in our family,

02:49:59.440 | we really value and try as much as we can

02:50:01.960 | to keep our commitments

02:50:04.320 | and not just to ourselves, to each other.

02:50:06.640 | And so the rest of the season,

02:50:08.400 | you might be thinking all the time,

02:50:09.840 | I don't want to be doing this.

02:50:11.080 | And again, in my head, I'm thinking,

02:50:12.920 | good, that's like a good life experience

02:50:14.600 | to watch yourself go through that

02:50:15.640 | as long as it's not toxic.

02:50:16.880 | And at the end, you know, we'll talk about it.

02:50:19.120 | Interestingly enough,

02:50:20.120 | he had the best baseball season he'd ever had.

02:50:22.480 | He had a grand slam, which no shade to baseball,

02:50:25.200 | that's as exciting as youth baseball ever gets, right?

02:50:28.360 | And still, he was like, I think I'm done.

02:50:31.880 | Like, I just want to, and I felt really good about that.

02:50:34.640 | I was like, look, you ended on like,

02:50:36.920 | you were playing really well.

02:50:38.280 | It wasn't just 'cause you got moved down

02:50:40.040 | in the batting order.

02:50:41.280 | Like, if that's the reason why

02:50:42.960 | Mike could get moved down to the batting order,

02:50:44.560 | they're not starting on basketball.

02:50:46.040 | I hear this all the time.

02:50:46.880 | Now they want to quit.

02:50:48.320 | I don't have any rigid rules,

02:50:49.960 | but if that becomes a pattern,

02:50:52.840 | that worries me, or not worries me,

02:50:55.360 | but forget youth sports.

02:50:58.360 | That's just not a great circuitry

02:51:00.640 | that would be conducive with kind of resilience

02:51:03.760 | and confidence in adulthood.

02:51:05.920 | - Look, I love, love, love this concept,

02:51:10.720 | which I believe to be entirely true

02:51:12.960 | that the learning space between unskilled and skilled,

02:51:16.520 | if you will. - Yes, that's what it is.

02:51:17.600 | - Is characterized by the feeling of frustration

02:51:20.800 | in mind and body. - Yes.

02:51:22.720 | - I don't want to rattle off another experiment,

02:51:24.560 | but there is just oh so much data.

02:51:26.840 | I'll share this with you offline.

02:51:29.280 | The papers that is showing that brain plasticity,

02:51:32.560 | changes in neural circuitry,

02:51:34.000 | only occur when the chemical milieu of the brain

02:51:37.000 | is different than it normally is.

02:51:38.480 | Otherwise, how would the brain know it should change?

02:51:41.200 | So what sets the context for massive change

02:51:44.920 | in our neural circuitry

02:51:46.240 | is when there's a lot of adrenaline in the body.

02:51:49.000 | Sorry, folks, it's true.

02:51:50.200 | Adrenaline, also called epinephrine,

02:51:51.800 | and norepinephrine released in the brain.

02:51:53.920 | Now, you don't want to be in a state of panic

02:51:55.440 | or stress to the point where you're debilitated,

02:51:58.760 | but that shift in the chemical milieu

02:52:02.240 | sets the stage for rewiring of connections between neurons.

02:52:07.120 | I mean, this is known at the molecular level,

02:52:08.840 | it's known at the cellular level,

02:52:10.000 | it's known at the circuit level,

02:52:11.000 | and I'm excited to share that literature with you

02:52:13.000 | because it just basically is a bunch of nerd speak

02:52:16.160 | and numbers to support the fact

02:52:18.760 | that you're nailing it right in the bullseye,

02:52:22.080 | which is without frustration,

02:52:23.960 | there is no rewiring of the neural circuits.

02:52:26.320 | And if you think about it, it had to be that way.

02:52:28.320 | Otherwise, why would the circuits change?

02:52:30.680 | So that the error signal is what sets plasticity in motion.

02:52:35.120 | Now, the actual rewiring occurs during sleep.

02:52:37.120 | So this is my reminder to make sure

02:52:38.400 | that your kids get enough sleep

02:52:39.400 | 'cause that's when the actual,

02:52:40.360 | this is the phenomenon of not being able to do something,

02:52:42.280 | coming back a few days or weeks later,

02:52:43.800 | and you're like, "Can do it."

02:52:44.760 | Well, 'cause it happened in sleep,

02:52:46.160 | the final portion of the rewiring.

02:52:47.960 | - That's why phones shouldn't be in the bedroom for kids.

02:52:50.320 | - I think 75% of people between the age of seven and 18

02:52:55.320 | are massively sleep deprived.

02:52:58.520 | And there's the neural rewiring deficits

02:53:01.680 | associated with that are serious.

02:53:03.880 | And these are what we call sensitive periods.

02:53:06.160 | I like sensitive periods more than critical periods

02:53:08.120 | because critical periods imply an open and shut.

02:53:10.200 | Sensitive is there's a tapering, but it does taper.

02:53:13.760 | - So this unskilled to skilled

02:53:17.600 | and frustration in the learning space model,

02:53:20.160 | this is part of something that you're putting together now.

02:53:22.000 | Could you expand on that? - I already have it.

02:53:23.440 | I mean, our Frustration Tolerance Program,

02:53:25.560 | it's a workshop, it's within our membership, right?

02:53:29.720 | So it's one of 30 workshops.

02:53:32.600 | To me, it's one where, the thing is no parents say,

02:53:36.200 | "Dr. Becky, what I'm really dealing with

02:53:37.440 | "is low frustration tolerance."

02:53:39.040 | They'll say, "My kid is having tantrums,"

02:53:41.440 | or, "They won't do their homework."

02:53:42.960 | Or, "Kids with ADHD

02:53:44.880 | "tend to have low frustration tolerance," right?

02:53:47.040 | So to me, it's like one of the first things

02:53:50.080 | I recommend to new members where I say,

02:53:51.960 | "Okay, you might, like, this is the thing.

02:53:53.960 | "This is like the key thing

02:53:55.760 | "that underlies a lot of tantrums.

02:53:58.000 | "It underlies entitlement.

02:54:00.320 | "It underlies not sharing.

02:54:02.240 | "It underlies why you throw the board game

02:54:03.800 | "when you're about to lose.

02:54:04.840 | "It underlies quitting.

02:54:06.120 | "It's not homework."

02:54:07.120 | And again, the MGI, the Most Generous Interpretation

02:54:10.120 | is wait, right, the commonality in all those situations

02:54:14.160 | is my kid is frustrated.

02:54:16.360 | And if what they're learning or what they've practiced

02:54:19.520 | is when I feel frustrated, it's so intense

02:54:23.560 | that sometimes I think, like, do our kids learn

02:54:25.520 | that their emotions operate on a dimmer switch

02:54:28.640 | or an on/off switch?

02:54:30.240 | We want our kids to operate on a dimmer.

02:54:32.440 | Like you said, if you're at a 10 out of 10,

02:54:34.640 | nothing, you can't operate.

02:54:36.400 | But if every time, and I'm so interested

02:54:38.280 | in this literature you mentioned, 'cause I was thinking,

02:54:40.640 | what would happen in the first number of years

02:54:42.320 | of a kid's life if every time they're frustrated,

02:54:45.360 | well-intentioned, but again, just under-resourced parents,

02:54:48.560 | turn it off?

02:54:49.400 | Then what I think would happen, and I'm wondering,

02:54:52.640 | is then something that could be like a five out of 10,

02:54:57.080 | I feel like would feel like a 10 out of 10,

02:54:59.800 | because you never had a dimmer, right?

02:55:02.680 | Because if you only operated when a light went on

02:55:05.000 | with always going off, then even if over time,

02:55:08.000 | years later, the light was at a five,

02:55:09.960 | it still could feel blinding, right?

02:55:13.360 | And so this idea of a dimmer,

02:55:15.360 | you want your kids when they're frustrated,

02:55:17.480 | that's what frustration tolerance is.

02:55:20.200 | Nobody says, "I'm frustrated, I can't read, yay!"

02:55:23.120 | No one says that.

02:55:24.520 | But if it kind of comes up, "Oh, there's that light,"

02:55:27.880 | we want their bodies to think, "Okay, all I need to do,

02:55:31.160 | "and I have skills to get my nine out of 10 to an eight,

02:55:34.560 | "an eight to a seven, and when I'm at a seven,

02:55:38.160 | "that's where learning happens."

02:55:40.040 | That's very different than it's at a nine,

02:55:43.280 | and kind of like, "Who's gonna turn it off for me?"

02:55:46.440 | Or the reason in those situations,

02:55:48.200 | kids say, "I'm not doing my homework,"

02:55:49.960 | is they don't have the skills to bring it to a seven.

02:55:52.400 | And so their choice is to stay at a nine or 10 out of 10,

02:55:54.720 | which no human can do, or walk away and bring it to a zero.

02:55:58.240 | And so what I'm saying

02:55:59.080 | is our frustration tolerance workshop,

02:56:00.440 | which I want every parent to take,

02:56:02.080 | but I also just want to get into schools,

02:56:04.080 | is literally the thing that helps you teach your kids

02:56:09.000 | how to get frustration tolerance, how to...

02:56:12.240 | You really can do this.

02:56:13.080 | It sounds sick, but like, you can get your kids

02:56:15.920 | to like being in the learning space,

02:56:18.080 | to be like, "I'm gonna thrive here.

02:56:20.880 | "The good feeling is eventually gonna come.

02:56:23.240 | "I'm relatively comfortable here

02:56:25.560 | "because I just have watched myself

02:56:27.560 | "survive it that many times."

02:56:29.280 | And so the benefits of that workshop,

02:56:32.360 | and it just, the program is not only tantrums,

02:56:35.680 | but actually it is a lot in academics.

02:56:38.120 | 'Cause that, so many times when kids have issues in school,

02:56:42.160 | I'm not, ADHD is real, dyslexia is real.

02:56:45.040 | That definitely can be a component.

02:56:47.000 | But so many times,

02:56:49.200 | it's actually an issue of frustration tolerance.

02:56:52.440 | And that's often not kind of labeled for parents.

02:56:57.240 | - I'm realizing as you're saying this,

02:57:00.200 | that the literature that I'm aware of about stress

02:57:02.840 | and trauma is actually relevant here

02:57:05.280 | in an interesting and perhaps surprising way,

02:57:07.400 | whereby, this thing I said earlier,

02:57:09.800 | the brain only changes under conditions

02:57:11.400 | where norepinephrine and epinephrine are released.

02:57:14.440 | There is such a thing as one trial learning

02:57:17.240 | and it's associated with negative experiences.

02:57:20.040 | And the reason negative experiences

02:57:21.920 | create such robust learning in only one trial

02:57:24.640 | is because there's a massive amount of epinephrine

02:57:26.840 | and norepinephrine and other neurochemicals released.

02:57:28.880 | So it's stamped into the nervous system.

02:57:31.160 | But learning of things we want to learn

02:57:33.520 | relies on the same neurochemicals.

02:57:36.600 | I mean, there's a wild and really cool literature

02:57:39.480 | from a guy named James McGaugh who showed that like,

02:57:42.480 | if you spike adrenaline before learning,

02:57:44.440 | the learning is much faster and much more durable.

02:57:46.680 | If you spike adrenaline after learning,

02:57:49.080 | turns out the learning is more durable.

02:57:51.040 | Now we can't start getting into kind of,

02:57:54.760 | biohacking experiments on kids or themselves,

02:57:57.200 | but that the adrenaline is supposed to come

02:58:00.280 | during the learning itself, which is what you're saying.

02:58:02.480 | But the problem is if we stop once we're frustrated,

02:58:07.480 | we get the increase in adrenaline and norepinephrine,

02:58:10.920 | and again, other neurochemicals as well.

02:58:13.240 | But then the perception is

02:58:15.640 | that the plasticity loop is closed there.

02:58:17.520 | So what did you learn?

02:58:18.360 | When I do hard things, I get frustrated.

02:58:20.000 | When I stop, the frustration goes away.

02:58:23.240 | That's all you learn.

02:58:24.080 | In the same way that somebody exposed to trauma,

02:58:25.840 | this underlies the basis

02:58:26.880 | of almost all modern trauma therapies.

02:58:28.840 | It's in the right setting,

02:58:30.640 | take people back through it sequentially,

02:58:34.240 | let them experience that and start to desensitize to it

02:58:37.600 | so they can complete that loop.

02:58:39.200 | - Yeah, that's exactly right.

02:58:40.040 | - And so I think it's so important

02:58:42.480 | to push through frustration.

02:58:44.400 | And I think it's so important as you,

02:58:46.360 | I'm disagreeing with you here clearly,

02:58:48.840 | but that oftentimes that frustration can last

02:58:52.400 | more than just the learning session.

02:58:53.840 | It can be weeks or months, or in some cases,

02:58:56.800 | a year of a really challenging course

02:58:59.040 | or a sports participation.

02:59:01.640 | And so that's where it gets tough

02:59:02.960 | because as empathic creatures, one hopes,

02:59:05.520 | we hate to see members of our own species suffer,

02:59:08.960 | especially our kids.

02:59:10.280 | And so it becomes this thing of like,

02:59:12.480 | do you let them opt out?

02:59:14.320 | Like, what did they learn by opting out?

02:59:15.880 | And that's where it gets really complicated

02:59:17.720 | 'cause we also got a forebrain

02:59:18.880 | which can set all these different rules.

02:59:20.640 | And so-

02:59:22.240 | - But can I, I don't know about frustration for a year.

02:59:24.640 | I guess I always think how we experience a feeling

02:59:28.440 | is the feeling plus the story we tell ourselves

02:59:31.280 | about the feeling.

02:59:32.160 | And the feeling kind of is at a certain level,

02:59:37.240 | but the story we tell ourself about the feeling

02:59:39.720 | and what it means about us

02:59:41.560 | or how capable we are of coping with it,

02:59:44.240 | that can make a feeling that was here go to here.

02:59:47.600 | Something about frustration of a year,

02:59:49.160 | like it's interesting, we're talking so much about stories,

02:59:52.880 | but again, if one of the things I try as a parent

02:59:56.640 | is when my kid is saying,

02:59:58.880 | I don't know what would it be to quit?

03:00:00.320 | You know, I hate gymnastics, right?

03:00:05.320 | And you're thinking, okay, like, first of all,

03:00:08.480 | quitting is not always weak or wrong.

03:00:10.280 | Sometimes quitting is a very brave,

03:00:11.440 | awesome, great thing to do.

03:00:12.680 | - Definitely sometimes the absolute best thing to do.

03:00:15.360 | - A hundred percent.

03:00:16.480 | But as a parent sometimes, and I get this a lot,

03:00:18.120 | like I'm conflicted, like I don't know what's right.

03:00:20.160 | First of all, there's probably not a right.

03:00:22.120 | And again, our parenting never hangs on one decision.

03:00:25.000 | So just let that go.

03:00:26.600 | But I think what I would be curious to just experiment with,

03:00:31.200 | again, maybe it's because I'm so obsessed

03:00:33.200 | with frustration tolerance, especially in this world

03:00:36.600 | that is so working against frustration tolerance.

03:00:39.480 | I feel like it's like even more my duty

03:00:41.080 | as a parent to help.

03:00:42.360 | So I'm like, okay, let's just have an experiment

03:00:44.520 | where I would say, okay, talk to me about

03:00:46.600 | why you want to quit gymnastics.

03:00:47.800 | And I might know in the back of my head,

03:00:49.960 | maybe they're not as good as everyone anymore, right?

03:00:52.560 | Or maybe they just don't like it, who knows.

03:00:55.000 | But I might say, you know, look, maybe this isn't relevant.

03:00:58.480 | I'm thinking about when I did, you know,

03:01:02.200 | I'm thinking about a different sport.

03:01:04.000 | When I did track growing up.

03:01:06.840 | And there were like whole years where I was like,

03:01:08.840 | I love track, I love track.

03:01:11.120 | And I don't know if I ever told you this,

03:01:12.480 | but when I was 11, I hated track.

03:01:15.600 | I went from love to hate it.

03:01:18.560 | And part of it was, and again,

03:01:21.560 | say something kind of relevant to your kid.

03:01:22.880 | Part of it was there was a new kid at school

03:01:24.960 | and I was kind of the track star until she came in.

03:01:27.520 | And then I was like second and that just kind of stunk

03:01:30.160 | and no, I didn't tell myself it's okay.

03:01:32.440 | I kind of told myself this stinks every day.

03:01:34.400 | And part of it was all my friends were doing soccer

03:01:37.160 | and I kind of felt left out.

03:01:38.560 | But I finished the year and the next year

03:01:41.840 | something interesting happened.

03:01:43.360 | And this is what a kid will say.

03:01:44.560 | I'll go, "Oh, what, you love track again?"

03:01:47.320 | You know, and it's this amazing moment

03:01:49.520 | 'cause they're always gonna say that to be like,

03:01:52.360 | no, no, I ended up deciding that next year

03:01:56.560 | was my last year at track.

03:01:57.760 | And I stopped after that, but can't explain it.

03:02:00.720 | It just, it felt like it came from like a different place.

03:02:04.160 | And almost like I felt more settled, I think after,

03:02:06.160 | like I really knew.

03:02:08.200 | And I don't know if that's relevant to gymnastics.

03:02:10.960 | I do know you've loved it for a while.

03:02:12.440 | It's kind of new to not like it.

03:02:14.840 | And sometimes when something's new and you don't like it,

03:02:17.320 | you just gotta go.

03:02:18.840 | But other times when something's new and you don't like it,

03:02:21.120 | you wanna like figure it out.

03:02:23.160 | And I don't know, I'm wondering if we should give it

03:02:26.040 | a few more weeks to try the figuring it out thing.

03:02:28.600 | And again, maybe your kid says,

03:02:31.280 | "No, I wanna quit."

03:02:32.120 | And you're like, "Fine."

03:02:33.600 | And in some ways you've already had the experience

03:02:35.480 | no matter what they do.

03:02:37.360 | But I think that's what I think about playing around with

03:02:41.000 | with kids way more than, I think what parents say is,

03:02:44.520 | "So should they quit or not?"

03:02:46.120 | It's so binary, it's so rigid.

03:02:49.400 | And I think we're missing the nuance of the story

03:02:52.000 | and the process that matters more

03:02:53.920 | than the eventual decision.

03:02:55.680 | - I love your use of story in narrative with your kids.

03:03:02.240 | It seems like you use that a lot.

03:03:04.760 | - I do.

03:03:05.600 | - Instead of saying, you know, and forgive me for,

03:03:08.680 | I'm not an analyst, but I feel like it starts

03:03:11.040 | with an observation.

03:03:12.280 | Like, okay, you're behaving this way,

03:03:14.040 | maybe what's behind the behavior or you're expressing this,

03:03:16.280 | what's maybe deeper to that.

03:03:17.560 | But when talking about your own experiences

03:03:20.960 | towards your kids as you've been doing here

03:03:22.800 | in these pseudo hypotheticals,

03:03:24.280 | I'm sure some of them is,

03:03:25.120 | this we'll interview your kids later and find out.

03:03:26.920 | No, I'm kidding.

03:03:27.760 | It's clear that you use story as a way

03:03:32.200 | to kind of share genuinely,

03:03:34.960 | but also probe for what might be going on with them.

03:03:38.200 | And I have to say, I find it really delightful

03:03:42.480 | because it raises lots of questions

03:03:47.400 | that I think anyone would have.

03:03:49.880 | And I think it's part of your gift, clearly,

03:03:53.600 | because so many people follow your advice.

03:03:58.600 | But the advice you give is also, it's interesting,

03:04:01.000 | it's like an observation, like frustration is key.

03:04:03.320 | I want to increase frustration tolerance,

03:04:05.480 | but then you're not like, okay,

03:04:07.480 | you're going to hammer down their throats,

03:04:09.640 | frustration tolerance in the following way.

03:04:11.400 | It sort of becomes a question,

03:04:12.800 | like where's their frustration in your life?

03:04:14.680 | And then you put it into your own narrative

03:04:17.680 | as opposed to necessarily asking them questions.

03:04:20.680 | I think asking kids questions

03:04:21.920 | or asking people questions generally is great.

03:04:23.680 | Like, hey, how can I do better?

03:04:24.880 | As you pointed out earlier.

03:04:26.240 | But it's really, I don't know if the word is disarming,

03:04:29.640 | but it's really in an entirely positive way,

03:04:34.440 | the way like you use your own narrative

03:04:36.280 | to allow people to start going,

03:04:37.920 | oh yeah, like, where am I experiencing frustration?

03:04:40.040 | Where can I tolerate that better?

03:04:41.880 | And so I think that there's this incredible triad of like,

03:04:45.880 | or tripartite thing of like observe,

03:04:50.360 | consider like the deeper layer,

03:04:53.280 | and then offering a narrative

03:04:54.760 | that's really a bunch of questions

03:04:56.560 | where you're speaking from your real truth.

03:05:00.320 | It's really elegant, I have to say, it's spectacular.

03:05:03.440 | I hadn't realized it until right now.

03:05:04.880 | I don't know if I realized those parts,

03:05:06.360 | but you know what is interesting

03:05:08.520 | is it brings up the word we kind of mentioned before,

03:05:10.720 | but didn't talk about,

03:05:11.800 | and maybe it'll be surprising that I say this, is shame.

03:05:14.880 | And I think shame is the biggest blocker to learning.

03:05:19.880 | And shame, I think, can be defined

03:05:21.960 | like a lot of things in many ways,

03:05:24.080 | but it's the experience of aloneness.

03:05:26.240 | I think shame is the feeling you have

03:05:28.280 | when you kind of feel like a part of you is not attachable.

03:05:31.040 | So for a kid, that's an existential threat

03:05:33.720 | to not be in attachment with someone.

03:05:36.320 | And in that way, when you're not attachable, you're alone.

03:05:38.960 | You're alone.

03:05:40.640 | And so, so many of the things that happen with our kids,

03:05:42.760 | 'cause I'll model another story,

03:05:44.480 | and maybe I'll get some flack for this,

03:05:47.120 | because it's probably counterintuitive.

03:05:49.760 | But I think about like one of my kids,

03:05:52.400 | my resilient rebel,

03:05:53.920 | who was in a hitting stage when he was younger.

03:05:56.320 | Hitting, and he was in like a couple of weeks.

03:05:59.600 | He was hitting, and then there was this one,

03:06:03.640 | there was this one time where we were doing a family puzzle,

03:06:06.000 | and he was younger.

03:06:06.960 | He was probably like three.

03:06:08.400 | It was really hard.

03:06:09.480 | It was more for my older kids.

03:06:11.160 | He was kind of doing his own thing.

03:06:12.320 | I think he was playing with blocks on the side.

03:06:13.760 | We leave, we come back,

03:06:14.760 | and like a couple of the puzzle pieces

03:06:17.280 | were missing that we're in.

03:06:18.720 | And I just knew, I knew it.

03:06:21.640 | He saw it.

03:06:22.920 | I know most generous interpretation.

03:06:24.480 | He felt like, "Oh my God, I can't participate

03:06:27.880 | "in what the rest of the family is doing.

03:06:29.760 | "And so you know what I'm gonna do?

03:06:30.840 | "'Cause I'm a smart kid.

03:06:31.680 | "I'm just gonna stop them from participating.

03:06:34.200 | "And so I'm gonna take the puzzle pieces and hide them."

03:06:37.600 | I just, I knew it.

03:06:38.440 | I know him.

03:06:39.280 | So we come back and we worked really hard on this puzzle.

03:06:42.080 | Of course you're angry, but again,

03:06:43.720 | I can either do nothing on the outside

03:06:45.600 | or do nothing on the inside.

03:06:47.080 | In that moment, not always, but chose to be an adult.

03:06:50.440 | And I was just like, "I know you took the puzzle pieces.

03:06:52.440 | "I just want you to know."

03:06:53.400 | And he's like, "What are you talking?"

03:06:54.240 | "No, I didn't."

03:06:55.080 | You know, maybe he's four.

03:06:55.900 | "No, I didn't."

03:06:56.740 | And I was like, "We're working on this puzzle.

03:06:58.920 | "I get that it's probably frustrating,

03:07:01.480 | "but like, you need...

03:07:02.880 | "I'm not...

03:07:03.720 | "I didn't have the puzzle pieces."

03:07:05.280 | That was not working.

03:07:06.380 | And then this is truly going back to stories

03:07:09.640 | and going back to shame.

03:07:11.520 | If you feel like you're the bad kid who's doing bad things,

03:07:15.960 | and you're the only one who's like that,

03:07:19.600 | you are shut down from learning.

03:07:22.440 | So I went up to him on the couch

03:07:25.240 | and my husband, I remember watching me being like,

03:07:26.860 | "What are you doing?"

03:07:28.560 | And this is how I started.

03:07:29.400 | I go, "I don't know if I can tell you this."

03:07:32.880 | Which any kid's like,

03:07:34.380 | "I don't know if I can tell you this.

03:07:36.280 | "When I was probably about seven,

03:07:41.540 | "I did something really bad."

03:07:44.840 | That's what I said.

03:07:45.680 | And he was like, "I can't even tell you."

03:07:47.040 | He was like...

03:07:48.120 | He like, every part of his anger, like, diffused.

03:07:51.120 | And you can really draw a kid in by just saying to them,

03:07:54.980 | "I can't tell you.

03:07:55.800 | "I've never told anyone."

03:07:56.640 | And I go, "Okay."

03:07:57.480 | And this is true.

03:07:59.040 | I go, "My sister was two,

03:08:02.280 | "and she had these like oily stickers,

03:08:05.280 | "and I really wanted them.

03:08:07.320 | "And I asked my mom,

03:08:08.440 | "and she said, 'No, we couldn't go to the store.

03:08:11.000 | "'No, those are, you know, my sister's stickers.'

03:08:14.200 | "And you're never gonna guess what I did."

03:08:17.500 | And he was like, "I don't know.

03:08:22.180 | "You asked her for them.

03:08:23.340 | "You waited."

03:08:24.400 | You know?

03:08:25.240 | And I was like, "No, I took them."

03:08:29.320 | "But that's not the worst part."

03:08:31.760 | He's like, "What?"

03:08:33.520 | And I go, "My mom asked me if I took them.

03:08:36.640 | "I knew I did, so you know what I told her."

03:08:40.520 | And he said, "You told her yes?"

03:08:41.960 | And I go, "No.

03:08:43.580 | "I told her no."

03:08:45.820 | And he literally goes.

03:08:49.920 | - And I feel like in that moment,

03:08:54.500 | what's happening is he's saying like so many things

03:08:57.560 | that you can never say didactically.

03:08:59.240 | Like, "Mom, like, you're my mom.

03:09:01.280 | "I love you.

03:09:02.200 | "I hold you on a pedestal."

03:09:04.080 | And like, "Even you did something that wasn't so great."

03:09:09.080 | There's like so much hope and goodness.

03:09:12.600 | And then I didn't, in that moment,

03:09:14.680 | I did not say, and you cannot say in these situations,

03:09:17.520 | "So now you can tell me that."

03:09:19.200 | You just have to like trust.

03:09:20.980 | Because I think the shame of the badness,

03:09:25.840 | shame freezes you, right, as an animal defense state,

03:09:28.800 | right, shame freezes you.

03:09:30.080 | So a kid who's lying to you is always in shame.

03:09:34.720 | And you can't get a kid to unfreeze

03:09:38.320 | and move to a different place of telling you the truth

03:09:41.240 | if you're adding more shame through fear.

03:09:43.600 | Like, the math doesn't work.

03:09:45.600 | But you can through stories.

03:09:47.140 | Now, true story, he did not right after that say, you know.

03:09:53.640 | I was just like, I remember my husband who,

03:09:56.440 | okay, I won't be saying this.

03:09:57.880 | He was like, "We have to punish him.

03:09:58.900 | "We have to, you know, we have to punish him."

03:10:00.480 | I was like, "In the moment,

03:10:01.480 | "that's gonna feel very cathartic to us.

03:10:02.920 | "That's what punishment does.

03:10:03.840 | "It makes you feel very powerful.

03:10:05.320 | "It makes you feel very cathartic.

03:10:07.240 | "It doesn't work.

03:10:08.460 | "It just doesn't,

03:10:09.300 | "especially not with kids who are strong-willed."

03:10:11.880 | I was like, "Just give it a couple days."

03:10:13.920 | It was probably a good three days later.

03:10:17.600 | And he brought me the puzzle pieces in a bag.

03:10:21.920 | And he just said, "I took them."

03:10:24.820 | And he truly started crying.

03:10:27.720 | And I did not lecture him.

03:10:30.960 | I feel like the whole arc,

03:10:32.720 | the whole lesson had basically already happened.

03:10:36.800 | Honestly, like the day after or so,

03:10:38.960 | again, and this is what I think we miss as parents.

03:10:40.680 | And like, we're almost afraid

03:10:42.460 | to like just name the humanness of it.

03:10:44.440 | And I kind of gave an example earlier.

03:10:46.560 | He's gonna wanna do something bad again.

03:10:48.160 | We all want to do bad things.

03:10:50.640 | That's not a bad urge.

03:10:51.720 | It's just about having the skills

03:10:53.480 | to do something differently when you have the urge.

03:10:55.320 | So I think a couple of days later, and I do this.

03:10:57.740 | I do these little like role-plays.

03:10:59.040 | They take like 20 seconds.

03:11:00.280 | I was like, "Oh my goodness.

03:11:01.680 | "Look at the puzzle."

03:11:03.880 | 'Cause we'd still been working on it.

03:11:05.200 | "What if you wanna take it again?"

03:11:06.440 | He goes, "I won't."

03:11:07.280 | I go, "I know, but I think you might want to.

03:11:09.720 | "Remember how I took the oilies."

03:11:12.920 | - So you're acknowledging that inside him,

03:11:14.680 | there might be a piece

03:11:15.520 | that still wants to do the wrong thing.

03:11:17.560 | - Feelings, and that's an urge.

03:11:19.240 | I teach my kids.

03:11:20.080 | An urge means you want to do something.

03:11:21.760 | My kids will say, "An urge is not a behavior.

03:11:23.800 | "Behavior is doing the thing."

03:11:25.480 | That's not okay.

03:11:26.720 | But the only reason your urge doesn't convert into behavior

03:11:29.600 | is 'cause you have a skill to manage the urge.

03:11:31.880 | And you can't build skills if no one teaches you them.

03:11:34.880 | So I said, "What could you do instead?

03:11:37.320 | "Could you run to me and say,

03:11:38.400 | "'I really wanna take the pieces.'

03:11:40.100 | "Could you say, 'I need time with you.'"

03:11:41.560 | Because at the end of the day, I think he felt left out.

03:11:43.880 | And we did.

03:11:44.720 | And by the way, this kid, is he like perfect now?

03:11:46.440 | No, he, you know.

03:11:47.400 | But like, it brings together so many things.

03:11:52.400 | When number one, when we trust ourself that we have time,

03:11:57.040 | when we realize shame, the fear of being the only one,

03:12:00.200 | being bad, being unlovable, being alone,

03:12:02.360 | is often the biggest blocker for kids.

03:12:04.780 | When you really realize that,

03:12:06.440 | punishment and sending your kid away makes no sense at all.

03:12:11.440 | And you can kind of give yourself freedom to tell stories.

03:12:16.220 | Right, because when we're really struggling with something,

03:12:19.360 | you don't wanna look at someone,

03:12:20.760 | especially someone who's perfect, right?

03:12:23.120 | It's like when you really have a bad experience as an adult,

03:12:25.680 | the only thing you wanna hear is your friend who had,

03:12:27.480 | like, you know, "I'm mortified.

03:12:29.780 | "I sent this email to my boss.

03:12:32.400 | "The only thing that would make me feel better

03:12:34.140 | "is someone like, 'Let me show you the email I sent.'"

03:12:36.520 | I'm like, "Oh, wow, that's worse."

03:12:37.920 | That's the only thing that makes you feel better.

03:12:39.360 | Not because I wish bad upon other people,

03:12:41.080 | but because you wanna know you're not alone.

03:12:43.680 | And other people's stories do that, like vulnerability.

03:12:46.980 | It's kind of like, it's like this magic trick.

03:12:52.620 | - I mean, is pretty far away from the parenting dynamic,

03:12:56.060 | but the understanding and actual data

03:13:00.700 | from, like, 12-step programs and group therapy generally,

03:13:04.620 | including trauma therapy that is of a group therapy nature,

03:13:09.300 | fully supports everything you said.

03:13:12.100 | Hearing the terrible and/or humiliating things

03:13:17.020 | that people have done or have done to them,

03:13:19.020 | as awful as that sounds, you know,

03:13:20.380 | is often what underlies people's willingness to recover,

03:13:24.020 | ability to recover, and then they become the teachers

03:13:27.500 | over time. - That's right.

03:13:28.340 | - Like you said, I think you said

03:13:29.820 | so many incredible things there,

03:13:31.380 | but right at the end, you said something

03:13:33.380 | that I hope everyone internalizes,

03:13:35.180 | that when you do something embarrassing,

03:13:37.580 | maybe even humiliating, the last thing you wanna hear

03:13:41.260 | is, "Look, it's all gonna be fine."

03:13:43.520 | The thing that actually helps is somebody

03:13:45.320 | who has experienced something similar and is doing fine.

03:13:49.740 | - Yeah, and I use that at management.

03:13:51.460 | Like, we had someone do a presentation at work,

03:13:53.700 | and it was for a bunch of people, and it did not go well.

03:13:56.620 | And I met with her, and she knew it kinda didn't go well.

03:13:59.040 | And honestly, the only thing I said to her,

03:14:00.500 | I don't even manage her directly, she's more junior.

03:14:03.060 | And I really mean this, we had,

03:14:04.560 | in clinical psychology grad school, it gets intense.

03:14:06.900 | You do a session when you're first doing sessions,

03:14:09.620 | and everyone's watching you.

03:14:11.500 | They're watching you do therapy, which is helpful.

03:14:14.420 | But I remember my first one,

03:14:16.420 | and I felt pretty okay about it.

03:14:18.080 | I was like, "This is my first one, I was okay."

03:14:19.860 | I got torn to shreds.

03:14:22.460 | They were like, "That was not good."

03:14:24.900 | And now, obviously, I feel good about my clinical abilities,

03:14:29.380 | but the only thing I said to her is I was like,

03:14:32.380 | "Look," and I shared it with her.

03:14:34.460 | And I said, "I've been there."

03:14:38.460 | Eventually, I look back on that, it helped me learn.

03:14:42.260 | That day, I just felt awful.

03:14:43.860 | I wasn't like, "This is my learning space moment."

03:14:46.620 | And so, if you're feeling like that,

03:14:47.820 | I just wanna let you know, I've been there, too.

03:14:50.900 | This is the starting point to getting better.

03:14:53.020 | This is gonna make you stronger.

03:14:54.540 | I know that I've lived that.

03:14:56.380 | And I think storytelling in that way

03:14:58.900 | is probably a really underutilized quote tool,

03:15:02.140 | almost dehumanizes it to call it that,

03:15:04.540 | in management, in any relationship.

03:15:08.060 | - Love it, and I feel like the story of your son

03:15:11.020 | bringing those puzzle pieces back is like,

03:15:13.300 | there's so much there.

03:15:15.580 | - So much.

03:15:16.420 | - And the fact that there was a delay,

03:15:17.860 | and then he brought it back on his own accord,

03:15:20.980 | and that you had already kinda let it go,

03:15:24.060 | that's, I feel like, a really interesting piece.

03:15:26.380 | It wasn't to appease you,

03:15:28.660 | it was really something internal for him.

03:15:30.420 | He got the lesson for him.

03:15:33.940 | It wasn't just about making mom feel okay about him.

03:15:37.300 | He clearly understood you still love him,

03:15:38.860 | but it wasn't about fixing something externally

03:15:42.340 | as much as it was about fixing something internally,

03:15:44.340 | which I think is the addressing

03:15:46.840 | and overcoming the shame piece.

03:15:48.440 | - I think that's right, and that's the thing,

03:15:50.300 | I think sometimes, it's like,

03:15:52.140 | are we teaching kids what to think or how to think?

03:15:55.660 | After they're gone from our house, it's the how to think.

03:15:59.160 | And you said questions.

03:16:00.980 | I love kind of Socratic questions for kids.

03:16:04.260 | Like, oh, if, again, a different version of a story

03:16:06.960 | would be like, oh, okay,

03:16:08.980 | I know you didn't take the puzzle pieces,

03:16:10.580 | but I'm just thinking for me,

03:16:11.520 | like, what would make me take puzzle pieces?

03:16:15.740 | Oh, I wonder if I felt left out,

03:16:17.980 | or I wonder if I was just really trying

03:16:20.100 | to get my parents' attention for a while,

03:16:21.460 | and this was the only way to do it,

03:16:22.620 | and what would I do after, and what would I need,

03:16:26.620 | now I'm gonna get emotional,

03:16:28.500 | what would I need to know about myself or from my parent

03:16:32.100 | for me to share that I did take it?

03:16:36.260 | Maybe I would need to know

03:16:37.240 | that my parents knew I was a good kid.

03:16:40.780 | Anyway, sorry, what were we talking about?

03:16:42.440 | Like, 'cause your kids eventually make good decisions.

03:16:46.600 | Adults make good decisions for themselves

03:16:48.520 | because they ask themselves the right questions.

03:16:50.920 | And not because they've heard their parents'

03:16:54.200 | specific lesson, right?

03:16:56.000 | Because they're able to say to themselves,

03:16:57.480 | like, what am I feeling right now?

03:16:58.800 | What am I really looking for?

03:16:59.840 | Why did I do that?

03:17:01.040 | So, like, asking questions, telling stories,

03:17:03.160 | asking questions without even answering them

03:17:05.880 | actually provokes a much more sophisticated

03:17:08.580 | developmental process in your kid

03:17:10.940 | than the lectures we all, me included.

03:17:14.460 | Trust me, plenty of times at my kid

03:17:15.860 | that I've just lectured them.

03:17:17.420 | But again, they're just catharsis.

03:17:18.660 | They're not actually terribly effective.

03:17:21.420 | - Yeah, if ever there was some core truths

03:17:24.980 | about brain plasticity, it's that frustration

03:17:28.820 | is associated with the chemicals that foster brain change.

03:17:32.660 | We know that.

03:17:33.680 | And that questions have a really interesting impact

03:17:37.240 | on learning, which sounds kind of like a duh.

03:17:39.680 | Well, of course they do.

03:17:40.520 | But when we ask questions,

03:17:41.480 | it creates this open loop in the brain

03:17:42.920 | that the brain wants to solve,

03:17:44.520 | as opposed to hearing a statement.

03:17:46.400 | This is why I always felt like those pictures

03:17:49.120 | on office walls, like motivation, when you blah, blah, blah.

03:17:52.360 | Like, motivational statements don't mean much

03:17:56.080 | in terms of, because they're not about verb states.

03:17:59.320 | When we ask questions, we put our brain

03:18:01.040 | into kind of a process of verb states,

03:18:03.280 | of asking what behaviors are gonna lead to which outcomes.

03:18:06.140 | There's an interesting literature about this

03:18:08.020 | that probably isn't fully relevant here,

03:18:10.180 | but it gets back to trying to learn basic motor tasks.

03:18:12.820 | And the same things are applied to basic cognitive tasks

03:18:15.060 | of like, how do I solve this?

03:18:16.540 | And a puzzle is a great example

03:18:19.480 | because it's both cognitive and motor.

03:18:21.460 | Like you're fixing these pieces in different ways.

03:18:23.900 | I have to get back to doing some puzzles, I'm realizing.

03:18:26.260 | - And emotional.

03:18:27.460 | You know, I can really embarrass myself,

03:18:28.940 | but one of my favorite things that I, again,

03:18:30.680 | I've just noticed my kids extending for puzzles,

03:18:33.240 | 'cause they all did a lot of puzzles when they're young,

03:18:34.780 | is, it's so funny, I remember my kid doing like this puzzle

03:18:37.860 | and getting some frustration.

03:18:39.820 | What I did is I did a puzzle to the side of him.

03:18:42.880 | And instead of doing it perfectly, I kind of like mimicked.

03:18:46.380 | I was like, oh, this doesn't fit.

03:18:48.260 | Oh, it's not that piece, okay?

03:18:50.300 | And one of the things I noticed,

03:18:51.220 | this is when my kid was really young,

03:18:52.620 | is kids have a really hard time with puzzles,

03:18:55.620 | and it's kind of a metaphor for life,

03:18:57.500 | for when a piece doesn't fit, they keep trying it.

03:19:01.500 | When what they really need to do, it's such a metaphor,

03:19:03.960 | is put it down and pick up another piece, right?

03:19:08.960 | But I could tell my kid that, but I'm not,

03:19:10.720 | I always feel like just telling doesn't really work.

03:19:12.320 | So this is what I did, I'm not joking.

03:19:14.640 | I'm gonna sing, get ready, okay?

03:19:16.480 | So I was doing it over here, and I just go,

03:19:18.360 | oh, it's not fitting, it's not fitting here,

03:19:19.800 | it's not fitting here.

03:19:20.960 | And I go, ♪ If it doesn't fit ♪

03:19:25.640 | ♪ Put it to the side and try another piece ♪

03:19:31.580 | And then I was like, oh, right, I can put it to the side.

03:19:36.220 | Okay, I'll get this one, and I didn't make it perfect,

03:19:37.940 | I was like, oh, oh, oh, that one fits there, right?

03:19:42.940 | I have heard, not anymore, my kids are too old,

03:19:47.900 | but there was a time, I remember me and my husband

03:19:49.700 | were like outside the playroom,

03:19:50.660 | and we heard our son like singing this song.

03:19:55.460 | It's just, it's a mantra, it's self-regulation,

03:19:58.900 | because is it cognitive, is it physical?

03:20:01.520 | It's also emotional, it goes back to frustration tolerance,

03:20:04.800 | where our kids need, they need mantras, they need skills,

03:20:07.360 | they need songs to actually up-level their skills

03:20:11.840 | to regulate the emotions that get in their way

03:20:15.520 | of doing great things, right?

03:20:17.560 | And that kid is interesting, like not really anymore,

03:20:21.720 | now that I think about it, I wanna revive it.

03:20:23.240 | He makes up songs through situations,

03:20:26.280 | what an amazing skill, right?

03:20:28.680 | But the stuff can like, and if anyone's hearing this,

03:20:31.820 | they're like, oh, that's unrealistic,

03:20:32.800 | like it's amazing you do it one time, one time,

03:20:36.000 | make up a silly song, model the frustration yourself,

03:20:39.620 | make up a song, struggle again, and then get success,

03:20:43.280 | whatever it is, it could be with reading,

03:20:45.360 | with a puzzle, with putting on your sock,

03:20:47.400 | it could be, oh, it doesn't fit,

03:20:50.600 | I'm taking a deep breath and trying it again,

03:20:54.400 | it could literally be anything,

03:20:56.160 | 'cause it adds a little play and joy,

03:20:57.600 | and you probably know what song does in the brain

03:20:59.000 | better than I do, but probably regulating.

03:21:01.300 | I would put money, a parent's gonna be like,

03:21:05.280 | that's so weird, Becky, you're right,

03:21:06.480 | didn't take that much time, I did it one time

03:21:07.880 | and my kids started singing the song

03:21:09.560 | and now they put their socks on by themselves.

03:21:12.000 | - I love it, you taught a process through song

03:21:14.320 | and there actually is a lot of data on music in the brain

03:21:17.920 | and how it organizes things, mostly in the form of a story

03:21:20.560 | of a beginning, middle, and end,

03:21:21.680 | and just the quickest example I can give

03:21:23.460 | is when we learn our ABCs, we learn them in song.

03:21:27.780 | - Right, it's A, B, C, D, E, F, G,

03:21:29.220 | you never forget that, right?

03:21:31.520 | It's much easier to learn things through rhythmic song,

03:21:36.060 | little motifs, than it is through a list

03:21:39.740 | of letters or numbers.

03:21:41.060 | - Does our brain encode it differently?

03:21:42.740 | - Yeah, so it fragments it into a beginning,

03:21:45.020 | middle, and end, and then there's an underlying

03:21:46.780 | repetitive sort of wave, A, B, C, D, E, F, G,

03:21:50.300 | okay, here I am now, I'm singing,

03:21:51.500 | so at risk of inducing-- - Embarrassing both of us.

03:21:54.660 | - Inducing all sorts of bad neural responses in listeners,

03:21:58.620 | but you get the point, it's a wave form

03:22:01.580 | that the brain can recognize.

03:22:03.340 | I actually have a friend who's a very accomplished musician

03:22:05.980 | and I know the lyrics to his songs very well,

03:22:07.820 | and I said, "Remember that song?"

03:22:09.260 | He goes, "Well, I have to hear the underlying melody,"

03:22:11.860 | and then he can remember all the words, he's a singer,

03:22:14.140 | he's a lead singer in a very well-known band,

03:22:16.820 | he doesn't even know the words to his own songs

03:22:18.340 | if you just ask them for 'em, but you give him the music

03:22:21.260 | and he's just out the gate, and he can do this

03:22:23.220 | in front of tens of thousands of people.

03:22:25.060 | - So then it is a cheat code for coping skills

03:22:27.380 | if you put it to song. - It is.

03:22:28.460 | It becomes a verb process.

03:22:30.540 | Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there.

03:22:31.700 | It's almost like saying like,

03:22:32.540 | oh, the mechanics of writing are you pick up,

03:22:34.260 | you put the pen between, there's a whole rhythm to writing,

03:22:39.060 | there's a whole sequence of, a motor sequence

03:22:41.380 | that we learn, or eating, or anything for that matter.

03:22:44.300 | No one who's an expert piano player

03:22:46.980 | thinks about playing the individual keys

03:22:48.620 | at the point where they've learned it,

03:22:49.980 | they've batched it into, it's sort of like chunking,

03:22:52.860 | but it has an underlying rhythm

03:22:54.700 | that's carried by a neural circuit

03:22:56.420 | that allows the expression of the movements of the fingers

03:22:59.180 | or the words out the mouth, or in this case,

03:23:01.220 | overcoming frustration to just kind of

03:23:03.060 | ride on top of all of it.

03:23:04.900 | So there's an unconscious genius to what you did,

03:23:09.020 | and I love it, and maybe as long as nobody hears me sing,

03:23:12.500 | I'll need to sing more to get through frustration.

03:23:15.340 | I have a question about Miss Edson.

03:23:22.140 | - Yes.

03:23:22.980 | - People are gonna be like, what?

03:23:24.980 | Before we started recording, you shared with us

03:23:27.780 | something I think is entirely appropriate

03:23:29.300 | to what we're talking about now,

03:23:30.260 | which is learning, and learning hard things,

03:23:33.260 | and frustration tolerance,

03:23:35.100 | and you've evolved these concepts in the course of your work

03:23:40.100 | and through your own parenting child relationships,

03:23:43.660 | clearly your own, and then yours with your kids.

03:23:46.500 | Who was Miss Edson, and what did she teach you?

03:23:48.220 | Because when you told me this, I was like,

03:23:50.060 | whoa, that's super valuable, we all need to know about this.

03:23:53.420 | - Yes, so Miss Edson was my second grade teacher,

03:23:56.580 | and I remember writing in her class,

03:24:00.220 | and I remember something she told us,

03:24:02.780 | and it's truly something that shapes me every day,

03:24:05.260 | and she said, "If something feels too hard to start,

03:24:10.100 | "it just means that the first step isn't small enough."

03:24:14.980 | And then she really kind of made this even more concrete,

03:24:19.340 | because what I remember in her class writing,

03:24:22.100 | and I still use this in writing today,

03:24:23.860 | is, okay, so if something feels too hard to do,

03:24:27.260 | the implication is, it doesn't mean it's my fault,

03:24:29.660 | it doesn't mean I can't, it doesn't mean I'm stupid,

03:24:32.020 | it literally just means the first step isn't small enough,

03:24:34.940 | that's very actionable.

03:24:37.260 | And so the way I play around with it now,

03:24:41.020 | even in my own writing, is,

03:24:42.860 | okay, I have to write a new article,

03:24:44.420 | and I'm like, I can't do that.

03:24:46.340 | Okay, so I'm in I can't mode.

03:24:47.540 | Okay, if something is, and I can't mode,

03:24:49.700 | if it feels too hard, I hear her voice,

03:24:51.540 | it just means the first step isn't small enough,

03:24:53.340 | so I'll make it, literally, I'll just make it smaller.

03:24:56.100 | I'm gonna write a page today,

03:24:57.380 | and then often I'm like, I can't do that.

03:24:59.300 | Okay, smaller, a paragraph, no.

03:25:02.620 | And I literally do it until, and some days it's a word,

03:25:05.460 | and I go, you know what, I can write a word.

03:25:09.540 | Okay, now I'm not, okay, right?

03:25:12.380 | And I really think Ms. Edson was ahead of her time.

03:25:16.380 | I mean, obviously now we talk a lot

03:25:17.460 | about frustration tolerance, growth mindset,

03:25:19.940 | but this really is a way of saying,

03:25:23.500 | when things are hard, it's not your fault,

03:25:25.980 | and there's something you can do

03:25:27.860 | to build the circuit of capability.

03:25:30.220 | Because I think when we're trying to do something hard,

03:25:32.740 | there are, like if you think about it,

03:25:34.020 | I don't know, you're on the top of a ski mountain,

03:25:36.820 | and on the one side is the I can't, it's too hard,

03:25:40.060 | and the other side is I can.

03:25:42.900 | We all have natural capability.

03:25:45.940 | I really believe this, every person.

03:25:48.500 | But it's just about figuring out how to get your skis,

03:25:51.940 | like to the beginning of the ski slope.

03:25:53.740 | And then maybe if we've practiced

03:25:55.620 | being on the I can't do hard things slope,

03:25:58.420 | our skis keep trying to turn,

03:25:59.780 | but we just have to keep getting them back.

03:26:02.300 | And so if we tell ourselves, I can't do this,

03:26:04.900 | and we just stay there, stagnant,

03:26:07.820 | but if you say, wait, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller,

03:26:11.940 | like I used this with a client a while ago,

03:26:14.100 | I can't ask my boss for a raise.

03:26:15.540 | I know I deserve it.

03:26:16.860 | Cool, no problem.

03:26:18.100 | Let's make it smaller.

03:26:19.420 | Okay, what would be smaller?

03:26:21.100 | I don't know, let's get creative.

03:26:22.700 | Could you write down what you would say?

03:26:25.300 | Okay, no.

03:26:26.660 | Could you say the word to me five times out loud?

03:26:30.700 | Raise, raise, raise, raise, raise.

03:26:32.700 | I remember she laughed, she goes, I can do that.

03:26:34.020 | Cool, let's start there.

03:26:35.140 | Okay, she literally did that.

03:26:37.140 | What I think is so powerful about Ms. Edson's advice

03:26:40.900 | is as soon as we get even our skis a tiny bit

03:26:44.300 | into the I can circuit, the I can slope,

03:26:47.860 | we're actually just a lot more likely to stay there,

03:26:50.340 | or at least that becomes a bigger part of our identity.

03:26:54.580 | Right?

03:26:55.420 | So with this woman that I was working on this with,

03:26:57.740 | one of the things we were working on,

03:26:59.340 | it was just, okay, so you did that, amazing.

03:27:02.180 | The next thing, I even just had her play around things

03:27:03.900 | saying to me, can you say to me, I deserve a raise?

03:27:06.340 | It was very interesting.

03:27:07.340 | She had, I think this was one of the reasons

03:27:09.300 | she had trouble speaking up for it.

03:27:11.460 | It was really hard for her to embody that.

03:27:13.700 | We said that.

03:27:14.860 | She couldn't, I remember a week she said,

03:27:16.340 | I'm gonna write it down and bring it.

03:27:17.620 | She didn't.

03:27:18.980 | Again, I like parenting.

03:27:20.340 | I didn't punish her.

03:27:21.540 | I didn't send her to her room.

03:27:22.700 | I said, okay, that was just too big.

03:27:24.260 | Let's make it smaller.

03:27:25.100 | Let's write it together.

03:27:26.260 | Wrote some things down there, right?

03:27:28.380 | I then had her write it as an email and send it to me.

03:27:32.740 | And I then had her practice it with her best friend.

03:27:35.660 | And then she asked her boss for a raise.

03:27:39.620 | Like, I mean, like, I don't even,

03:27:40.860 | this, like, probably no one's surprised.

03:27:42.260 | Yeah, like, that makes sense.

03:27:43.260 | She'd gotten through a lot of steps,

03:27:45.060 | but it's just applicable in every area of your life.

03:27:47.700 | So even anyone listening,

03:27:49.180 | we all have something in our I can't category.

03:27:51.380 | This is too hard or I can't.

03:27:53.420 | And we just stay there.

03:27:54.460 | And if you hear Ms. Edson saying,

03:27:58.180 | wait, if something feels too hard to do,

03:28:01.460 | it only means that the first step isn't small enough.

03:28:04.460 | And if then the next smallest step feels too hard,

03:28:07.100 | no biggie, like no judgment,

03:28:09.220 | make it smaller, make it smaller, make it smaller.

03:28:12.140 | And then allow yourself to eventually build up from there.

03:28:15.540 | - Love it.

03:28:16.380 | - Love Ms. Edson.

03:28:17.580 | - I'm gonna thank you and Ms. Edson.

03:28:19.900 | Yes, thank you, Ms. Edson.

03:28:22.100 | I think the idea of lowering the stakes

03:28:25.860 | to be able to move forward is just spectacular.

03:28:28.740 | - Yeah.

03:28:29.580 | - And in everything.

03:28:31.220 | And I noticed you do that,

03:28:33.980 | by the way, I'm not like analyzing,

03:28:35.460 | I'm just saying you do that with parenting.

03:28:37.980 | I think there's so much tension around this notion

03:28:40.740 | of like creating healthy, productive, functional kids.

03:28:44.580 | And I think there is a lot of shame for parents

03:28:47.100 | when things aren't going great and people know it

03:28:49.980 | or they know it.

03:28:51.100 | And the idea of creating lower stakes

03:28:54.420 | in order to be able to make pretty big moves over time

03:28:59.260 | where they're required or just do nothing

03:29:02.180 | when sometimes that's what's required.

03:29:03.940 | - Yeah, and the similarity is so interesting.

03:29:06.060 | What I think that the powerful thing

03:29:07.580 | about Ms. Edson's advice is she's almost saying,

03:29:11.140 | make something small enough so you can get your first win.

03:29:14.300 | Having a win is really powerful.

03:29:16.540 | It's kind of addicting.

03:29:17.460 | You're like, what's my next win?

03:29:18.620 | Right, you're on the win circuit.

03:29:20.460 | You know, one of the reasons we wanna create

03:29:24.460 | so many more resources for parents

03:29:26.100 | and when parents come to us and even say,

03:29:28.740 | this is a problem, this is a problem, this is a problem,

03:29:31.100 | I often just start, I would say, okay,

03:29:33.820 | like what is the smallest thing would change

03:29:35.780 | that would make you, when you go to bed at night,

03:29:37.420 | you're like, today was a better day.

03:29:39.340 | Like, there's some bigger stuff, I hear you.

03:29:41.340 | Probably not gonna tackle that.

03:29:42.420 | We'll tackle that in time,

03:29:43.300 | but like, I wanna get you a win today.

03:29:45.980 | And then all of a sudden when a parent starts to build,

03:29:50.340 | it's kind of their own self-efficacy,

03:29:52.140 | their own like, oh, wait,

03:29:53.660 | I did feel good about that one moment.

03:29:55.580 | I did feel more connected to my kid.

03:29:57.100 | I said this one thing.

03:29:59.100 | It's, I mean, it's momentum, you know?

03:30:02.300 | And we have to give ourselves the opportunity

03:30:03.980 | to build momentum, which really usually only starts

03:30:08.220 | by taking the smallest step anyway.

03:30:10.780 | - I think it's spectacular, right?

03:30:14.180 | I was going to ask you, and I never do this,

03:30:16.980 | but I was gonna ask you, you know,

03:30:18.140 | if there were one thing that people could start

03:30:20.380 | the process of trying to be a better parent,

03:30:22.620 | better to themselves, you know,

03:30:24.020 | if it's more about, you know,

03:30:25.020 | more about emotional containment, et cetera.

03:30:27.460 | Maybe it's this thing of, you know, asking, you know,

03:30:29.820 | at the end of today, like, what would be one thing

03:30:31.980 | that would allow me to have said it was a better day?

03:30:33.860 | Would that be it?

03:30:35.100 | Certainly that's powerful.

03:30:35.940 | - I'm gonna give you two things.

03:30:37.140 | One is kind of a one small thing,

03:30:39.460 | but it's kind of a bigger theoretical thing.

03:30:41.660 | And one thing is very, very, very concrete.

03:30:44.580 | So the bigger thing.

03:30:47.700 | I really believe that the single biggest thing

03:30:49.860 | that gets in our way of feeling more empowered

03:30:53.620 | and capable as parents is that as much as we say

03:30:57.380 | we value parenting, and I think parents,

03:30:59.220 | people do, or parents are like, yeah,

03:31:00.620 | what do I care about more than parenting?

03:31:02.620 | It's kind of the lowest on our list

03:31:04.660 | in terms of what we invest in.

03:31:06.180 | You know, people invest in all types of things.

03:31:09.540 | And I wanna be clear, yes, like,

03:31:12.140 | we have an offering at Good Insight and our membership,

03:31:14.940 | but that's not what I mean.

03:31:15.980 | For someone listening, they might be like,

03:31:17.500 | there is that parent coach in my town

03:31:19.460 | who I've been like saying I'm gonna call,

03:31:21.900 | or maybe it's a therapist,

03:31:22.900 | or maybe it's a parenting group at your school,

03:31:24.780 | or maybe someone listens to me

03:31:26.580 | and they're like, no offense, Dr. Becky,

03:31:28.260 | there's someone else I follow on Instagram

03:31:29.860 | and they have a course and I like them better.

03:31:32.700 | I'd be like, do that today.

03:31:35.380 | Like align your even purchasing decisions with your values.

03:31:40.380 | Like that, and because we're not expected

03:31:44.260 | to know this naturally, we're not.

03:31:46.260 | And as long as we don't have the resources around us,

03:31:49.420 | a little kind of, someone described it to me

03:31:51.340 | as like a onesie, twosie thing.

03:31:53.380 | Like it's just not giving ourself what we deserve.

03:31:57.220 | It is like a surgeon saying they're not good at surgery

03:32:00.380 | when you find out they never went

03:32:01.500 | to medical school or residency.

03:32:03.420 | You'd be like, well, I just didn't really get resourced

03:32:06.060 | in the way you deserve for this very challenging job.

03:32:08.540 | So that would really be the thing if I'm really honest,

03:32:10.700 | 'cause I'm not, as much as I'm about a quick win,

03:32:13.000 | I'm not about a quick fix.

03:32:14.440 | I think that just sets us up for more like a bandaid.

03:32:17.160 | Having said that, I love a quick thing.

03:32:20.800 | So a couple of things I think people can do with their kids.

03:32:23.540 | Telling your kid at night,

03:32:25.500 | and I'll model how I would say it.

03:32:27.540 | I think most people, it's not just me,

03:32:28.780 | when you put your kid to bed,

03:32:30.540 | it's like, oh, I just want to be on the couch,

03:32:32.180 | but it's when your kid's willing

03:32:33.220 | to spend five extra minutes with you,

03:32:34.940 | because it's the cruel irony at night.

03:32:36.940 | You want time without your kids

03:32:37.980 | and they just want a little bit more time with you.

03:32:40.220 | If you allow yourself to lean in

03:32:42.260 | and you can just say to your kid,

03:32:43.860 | almost like in a whisper,

03:32:44.780 | I think whispering to your kid

03:32:47.020 | is one of the most underutilized, simplest strategies.

03:32:49.140 | Whispers are so sacred.

03:32:50.420 | They feel sacred.

03:32:51.340 | They feel like they know they're just for you.

03:32:53.300 | Whispering to your kid, like,

03:32:56.140 | I just want to tell you there's nothing you could ever do

03:33:00.180 | that would make me stop loving you.

03:33:01.940 | Or, I just want to tell you you're a really good kid.

03:33:07.900 | We're in a hard stage, but I will never, ever,

03:33:12.260 | ever think of you as anything but a really good kid.

03:33:16.900 | Don't expect your kid to say anything.

03:33:21.340 | That takes 10 seconds.

03:33:24.700 | And if you're like, whispering feels awkward,

03:33:26.340 | don't whisper, just say it.

03:33:27.180 | It doesn't matter.

03:33:28.020 | If you're thinking, you don't know my kid,

03:33:30.340 | they're a teenager, text them.

03:33:32.540 | Text them.

03:33:33.780 | Sometimes a text to a teen can feel

03:33:35.260 | like an unexpected whisper from a parent, you know?

03:33:38.460 | And that's it.

03:33:40.060 | And that's the single thing today.

03:33:42.780 | And then maybe I'm gonna add a third.

03:33:44.820 | Just do something like that for yourself.

03:33:46.060 | Give yourself credit.

03:33:46.900 | Put your hand on your heart.

03:33:47.740 | Tell yourself, this parenting thing's really hard.

03:33:50.300 | Like, I'm doing enough.

03:33:54.060 | I'm not messing up my kid forever.

03:33:55.540 | That's not a thing.

03:33:57.220 | I'm like, and I've got this.

03:33:58.620 | - Awesome.

03:34:01.140 | Well, this whole thing that you've attempted to take on

03:34:06.500 | is also really hard, and you're doing incredible work

03:34:10.020 | educating people on how to parent.

03:34:11.860 | There's so many things that you've said today.

03:34:13.180 | I'm not gonna recap them all.

03:34:14.860 | You know, we do timestamps and all that

03:34:16.500 | so people can find them, but in no particular order.

03:34:19.620 | I mean, you know, this concept of telling a kid

03:34:24.020 | you're right to notice when they notice something important

03:34:27.340 | in you or in others or in themselves,

03:34:29.620 | that rigidity is the enemy.

03:34:32.540 | Asking, like, what's this really about

03:34:37.420 | when they're doing or saying something

03:34:39.460 | or expressing themselves in a way that feels confusing

03:34:41.500 | or maybe, especially when it's irritating.

03:34:44.580 | - Mm-hmm.

03:34:45.420 | - Encouraging frustration as a route to learning,

03:34:49.820 | like, incredible.

03:34:52.420 | And then you said the more that you can locate somebody,

03:34:55.740 | the more you respect their values,

03:34:58.300 | which I think is incredible, and on and on.

03:35:02.020 | I mean, there's just so many gems in today's conversation

03:35:04.860 | and so many actionable gems that you provide on social media

03:35:10.260 | through your courses, through conversations like this

03:35:14.420 | and others that you're holding in other podcasts.

03:35:16.780 | And I just wanna thank you so much.

03:35:19.380 | You know, you're teaching people how to parent others,

03:35:23.740 | how to think about their own parenting.

03:35:25.460 | Oh yes, that's the other one.

03:35:26.780 | You said the only kind of parenting that we do reflexively

03:35:29.220 | is the one that was done for us,

03:35:31.660 | which will evoke, you know, feelings of relaxation

03:35:35.620 | in some people and feelings of dread in others.

03:35:38.420 | But it all just speaks to the importance

03:35:39.820 | of paying attention to this thing that we call parenting.

03:35:42.780 | And I think the way that you're merging this

03:35:45.860 | with a thoughtful eye on technology,

03:35:48.460 | where it's taking us and where there are concerns,

03:35:50.460 | as well as, you know, where it can be utilized,

03:35:53.460 | it's just fantastic.

03:35:54.500 | I can't say enough good things

03:35:55.980 | about the work that you're doing,

03:35:57.740 | and I'm just so grateful that you're doing it.

03:36:00.300 | And I'm saying that on behalf of myself and everyone else.

03:36:02.740 | You're making the world a better place.

03:36:04.700 | So thank you so much for joining today

03:36:07.580 | and for sharing so much.

03:36:09.460 | We'll of course point out where people can find you,

03:36:12.540 | but just keep going.

03:36:14.220 | It's awesome.

03:36:15.180 | I've learned a ton.

03:36:16.020 | I know everyone else has as well.

03:36:17.780 | - Thank you.

03:36:18.620 | I'm honored to be back here a second time.

03:36:20.220 | I love speaking with you

03:36:21.060 | and look forward to the next time.

03:36:22.860 | - Likewise, we'll do it again.

03:36:24.900 | Thank you for listening to today's episode

03:36:26.660 | with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

03:36:28.140 | I hope you found it to be as informative

03:36:30.020 | and as actionable as I did.

03:36:31.980 | Right now, Dr. Becky has a 20% promotion going

03:36:34.700 | for her fantastic online program on parenting.

03:36:37.420 | Becky was kind enough to extend this discount

03:36:39.500 | until this Friday, January 17th, 2025

03:36:42.580 | for Huberman Lab listeners.

03:36:44.140 | You can find more on that

03:36:45.340 | along with links to Dr. Becky's book,

03:36:47.260 | her terrific social media handles,

03:36:48.860 | and more through the links in our show note captions.

03:36:51.460 | If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast,

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03:38:15.820 | Thank you once again for joining me

03:38:17.020 | for today's discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

03:38:19.340 | I hope you found it to be as informative

03:38:21.100 | and as actionable as I did.

03:38:23.100 | And last, but certainly not least,

03:38:25.200 | thank you for your interest in science.

03:38:27.160 | [upbeat music]

03:38:29.740 | (upbeat music)

Dr. Becky Kennedy: Overcoming Guilt & Building Tenacity in Kids & Adults

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