Stop Pursuing Greatness & Do This Instead (Change Your Life In 2025)

00:00:00.000 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is In Depth, a semi-regular series where I interview interesting people

00:00:08.840 | about the quest to cultivate a deep life.

00:00:13.040 | Today's episode is presented by Defender, a vehicle designed for those of us seeking

00:00:17.400 | adventure in a distracted world.

00:00:20.920 | I'm excited about today's show because I'll be talking with Kendra Adachi.

00:00:25.120 | I've known Kendra for a while, and she's a leader in a movement that she calls Compassionate

00:00:29.640 | Time Management.

00:00:32.280 | You might know her from her Lazy Genius podcast or from her book, The Lazy Genius, but she

00:00:39.180 | has a new title out, that's what we're gonna be talking about today, a new book that is

00:00:43.320 | called The Plan, Manage Your Time Like a Lazy Genius.

00:00:48.280 | So Kendra and I are exploring similar spaces that I explored in my prior episode with Oliver

00:00:55.360 | Berkman, but we come at it from different angles that I think are fascinating and useful

00:01:00.780 | for our quest on this show to understand depth, how to build a life that matters without getting

00:01:06.960 | obsessed about the process of the building.

00:01:09.600 | I think Kendra's fantastic on it.

00:01:11.440 | Here's some of the issues we get into in today's episode.

00:01:14.720 | Why being a genius in one thing means you might have to be lazy in many other things,

00:01:20.040 | and that that's okay.

00:01:22.400 | We talk about why the unceasing pursuit of greatness, which is the focus of a lot of

00:01:27.400 | time management productivity advice, this idea that everything you're doing now is about

00:01:31.200 | achieving some greatness in the future, we get into why that can be self-defeating and

00:01:36.280 | exhausting, and how the alternative, which Kendra calls integration, which involves living

00:01:42.320 | wholly with your current situation, can in the end be so much more fulfilling.

00:01:47.720 | We get into my own recovery from greatness pursuit addiction.

00:01:54.000 | We get some free therapy here from Kendra about my own middle-age evolution of what

00:01:58.800 | I think is important in my life.

00:02:00.440 | And I think this is critical.

00:02:02.480 | We get into why time management and productivity writing tends to neglect the reality of women,

00:02:07.160 | and how Kendra is trying to remedy that with this book and her podcast and writings in

00:02:11.840 | general.

00:02:12.840 | Now, I gave a cover blurb for the plan.

00:02:16.840 | In fact, I think I'm the only male blurber of this book, something that I'm very proud

00:02:22.200 | about.

00:02:23.200 | Here's what I wrote on the cover of Kendra's book.

00:02:26.520 | Strikingly original and compassionate, Kendra offers a vision of time management that embraces

00:02:31.520 | the unique messiness of your life instead of trying to optimize it away.

00:02:37.120 | I very much agree with that sentiment, and I think you might too after you hear our conversation.

00:02:44.560 | But first, I want to say a word about today's presenting sponsor, Defender.

00:02:48.320 | Let's start with the idea of a presenting sponsor altogether.

00:02:50.660 | This is new, but it was what I have said from the beginning of this series.

00:02:55.000 | My goal is to try to find for each episode a single presenting sponsor, a high-quality

00:03:01.920 | brand I actually like, that would then allow us to present the interview without interruption.

00:03:10.380 | So that once we get to the interview, we can really get lost in the conversation without

00:03:14.640 | ad breaks.

00:03:15.640 | Well, I couldn't be more excited that our very first such presenting sponsor we have

00:03:20.100 | found for this series is Defender.

00:03:23.740 | The iconic Defender line of vehicles has been reimagined for a new generation of explorers.

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00:04:02.260 | What I really like about Defender, however, is that psychologically speaking, it keeps

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00:04:12.060 | So even as you're enjoying all those technologies on your smooth driving commute to work, you

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00:04:25.580 | there's more to life than just the pragmatic through the motions chores that you might

00:04:31.220 | be looking at today.

00:04:32.720 | It's a mindset that I think at our current age of email and Zoom meetings is important

00:04:36.100 | to keep in mind, that sometimes you want to just get out there and get after it, whether

00:04:41.120 | that be physically or metaphorically.

00:04:45.040 | So I'm glad that Defender is our sponsor.

00:04:47.980 | You can visit LandRoverUSA.com to learn more about Defender.

00:04:55.380 | And with that, let us now get to our interview with Kendra Adachi, presented without any

00:05:01.060 | interruption.

00:05:02.060 | All right.

00:05:03.060 | Well, Kendra, it's great to see you again.

00:05:04.880 | Thanks for coming on the podcast.

00:05:06.900 | I've been looking forward to this one.

00:05:09.760 | You've done something very interesting with this book that I'm looking forward to getting

00:05:12.480 | into.

00:05:13.480 | So we'll start with it.

00:05:14.980 | Let's start with the book.

00:05:16.140 | It's called The Plan, Plan Capitalized, because it's an acronym.

00:05:20.060 | We'll get to that in a second.

00:05:22.020 | Manage Your Time Like a Lazy Genius, a certified New York Times bestseller, I should say.

00:05:28.620 | For a lot of people who know you, the phrase "lazy genius" is like a course.

00:05:32.220 | This is like what you're associated with.

00:05:33.820 | But for the part of my audience that's new to the world of Kendra, maybe bring us up

00:05:39.980 | to speed on this term "lazy genius" was not chosen at the last minute as you're writing

00:05:45.420 | this particular subtitle.

00:05:46.620 | This is a long existing concept in your universe.

00:05:49.580 | So what do we mean by that?

00:05:50.780 | Yeah, that's right.

00:05:51.780 | So a lazy genius is someone who is a genius about the things that matter, and lazy about

00:05:57.380 | the things that don't.

00:05:59.020 | And the key here is that you get to decide what matters to you and whatever season of

00:06:03.500 | life that you're in.

00:06:06.300 | Most of the rhetoric I heard for so long, years ago, over a decade ago, was either you're

00:06:11.980 | just amazing at everything, like she can do it all, or you are like messy hair don't care.

00:06:18.900 | Like there was these two extremes of either you're amazing at everything or you just care

00:06:23.140 | about nothing and you've given up, and even that giving up is like a badge of honor.

00:06:27.540 | Now that's definitely something that is in, I would say, the female space a lot more,

00:06:33.420 | but it's a really tough spectrum to kind of swing between those two ends.

00:06:39.220 | And I think most people, not just women, most people live in a very wide middle where there

00:06:45.080 | are things that they want to be excellent at.

00:06:47.340 | You want to give your genius energy and your time to these things that matter to you.

00:06:51.360 | But if you do that, you do have to be lazy about other things.

00:06:54.380 | You do have to sort of let things slide or be happy with C-level work or delegate them

00:06:57.860 | a lot or whatever.

00:06:59.220 | So what I try to teach people is not just, it's not necessarily about like hacks and

00:07:06.300 | specific tips.

00:07:07.780 | It's more this almost lifestyle of paying attention to where you are in the season of

00:07:14.260 | life you're in and naming what matters there so that you can actually make wise decisions

00:07:19.260 | about your time.

00:07:20.260 | I mean, I learned that phrase for the first time, "Lazy hair don't care."

00:07:24.460 | In your interview with Sharon McManus, who also has a cool new book out, and I was like,

00:07:28.740 | that is a cool phrase.

00:07:29.740 | Well, and there's also an interesting sort of niche in the market out there of, I guess,

00:07:36.100 | people who are in that camp but aren't really because they're spending a lot of very focused

00:07:41.140 | time trying to market that message and writing books about that message or whatever.

00:07:46.140 | The performative laziness is an interesting thing.

00:07:48.340 | It is.

00:07:49.340 | It really is.

00:07:50.340 | And that's why I found such resonance with this message because a lot of people, we sort

00:07:56.220 | of already know intuitively that trying to do it all doesn't really work.

00:07:59.840 | Sometimes we keep going, but there are actually more resources out there for people who are

00:08:04.180 | trying to do more.

00:08:05.720 | So it's easier to find a path sort of to feel like you're making some headway in this direction,

00:08:13.300 | even though I'm not sure a lot of us do, at least with not some expense that we pay on

00:08:18.720 | the back end with our health and our time and our family and whatever.

00:08:21.520 | But this other side, yeah, the performative laziness, it's just as unfulfilling and is

00:08:30.120 | just as unsustainable as trying to do it all because it's not authentic to most people.

00:08:35.400 | We actually do want to care about things like life is fulfilling because we feel a purpose

00:08:41.420 | in certain directions.

00:08:42.420 | You just can't feel a purpose in every single one.

00:08:45.120 | This is an odd connection to make, but stick with me here.

00:08:47.360 | I want to connect that to college admissions.

00:08:50.440 | Let's do it.

00:08:51.760 | Okay.

00:08:52.760 | When I was younger and I was writing books for students, I got very into giving talks

00:08:57.720 | and even wrote a book about this, about college admissions and the stress surrounding it.

00:09:02.520 | And this was this very interesting dynamic that arose in the early 2000s when there was

00:09:06.800 | a huge stress as the echo boom sort of squeezed into a smaller number of spots and colleges

00:09:11.880 | got more competitive.

00:09:13.220 | What I found was there was a whole industry whose response to the stress of college admissions

00:09:20.160 | was just to preach the message, there's more to life than Harvard, right?

00:09:25.720 | Just chill out.

00:09:26.720 | Like you shouldn't be so stressed about college.

00:09:29.240 | Life is long.

00:09:30.240 | It doesn't matter that much.

00:09:31.640 | And most of these people were Ivy League educated and there was a sort of like pull the ladder

00:09:35.680 | up behind you.

00:09:36.880 | And so this wasn't resonating with the people who are suffering the most stress because

00:09:41.400 | they were the most locked in on like, it really matters where I go to college.

00:09:44.840 | So they were just completely tuning out that message.

00:09:46.480 | So then I came in, I was giving these talks around the country where my whole approach

00:09:51.160 | was validating, okay, this is a valid, you know, ambition.

00:09:57.040 | You care about the college you go into, but the stress of the way that people are doing

00:10:00.800 | this is not worth it.

00:10:02.320 | So maybe we can find a way, this is like lazy genius ahead of time, maybe we can find a

00:10:06.600 | way to keep interesting options open for colleges, but you're not going to burn yourself out

00:10:10.920 | at the age of 17.

00:10:11.920 | And it was a really hard path to go because there was the crew of like, no, no, no, just

00:10:16.600 | there's more to life than college and parents are bad because their kids want to get into

00:10:19.560 | it.

00:10:20.560 | And then on the other end it was, you know, pipe till your, study till your eyes bleed.

00:10:24.240 | That's right.

00:10:25.240 | That's all that matters.

00:10:26.240 | Yeah.

00:10:27.240 | Yeah.

00:10:28.240 | And that in between resonated because people say, yeah, I have this ambition, but also

00:10:29.760 | I don't want to sleep three hours a day when I'm, when I'm 16.

00:10:33.640 | So there's that, I love that sweet spot.

00:10:36.440 | So, so, okay, here's the terminology from your book that I thought was profound.

00:10:41.080 | Talk about integration versus greatness as this spoke to me in a lot of ways.

00:10:48.160 | I love hearing that.

00:10:49.560 | So I have read so many time management productivity books over the years, like I, for the purpose

00:10:59.040 | of trying to do it all, like that was my original reason.

00:11:03.040 | And as I was researching this book and trying to think about what this was going to be,

00:11:08.720 | I just had this like light bulb moment where I realized, wait a minute, almost every single

00:11:13.520 | book I've ever read and every episode, podcast episode that I listened to, like everything

00:11:18.400 | in the space in general is trying to make me better.

00:11:23.200 | It's trying to make me amazing.

00:11:24.960 | It's trying to level up and 10X.

00:11:27.880 | Everything is just this upward movement.

00:11:30.520 | And I went, I don't want that though.

00:11:33.560 | Like that's not what I want the goal of my day to day life to be.

00:11:37.440 | It's not greatness because if that is the goal, I will always be behind.

00:11:43.160 | I will always feel like a day is a failure because what does great even mean?

00:11:48.040 | Like what's the, what's the measurement for that?

00:11:49.920 | There's no universal gauge for what that's going to be like.

00:11:53.100 | And when you talk about a female experience in particular where you're kind of holding

00:11:58.840 | like you're holding the domestic tasks of the home, it's like the invisible scaffolding

00:12:04.120 | of your household management, all those things, it's just, it feels so debilitating to feel

00:12:12.840 | like you have to be great all the time.

00:12:15.320 | And but our, even our country in many ways is built on that.

00:12:21.040 | It's built on potential and chasing your dreams and you hustle your way to the top and anybody

00:12:26.360 | can get what they want.

00:12:27.560 | And I think that in many ways that's really beautiful.

00:12:30.440 | Like that's a hopeful, beautiful thing that we can have as part of our DNA.

00:12:36.100 | But this expectation that everyone wants to be great and has the capacity and interest

00:12:45.200 | to be great in every element of their lives is just like false.

00:12:49.360 | I just think we've been, we've been sold a lie.

00:12:52.600 | Right.

00:12:53.600 | So instead, what if we have a different goal?

00:12:56.360 | What if instead of greatness being our goal at every turn, what if it's integration?

00:13:01.040 | What if it is being a grounded whole person right where we are, where we do not, it's

00:13:06.880 | like you just said about those college kids, where we are not sacrificing our humanity

00:13:13.040 | on the altar of productivity, on the altar of optimization, on getting more done in less

00:13:17.560 | time.

00:13:18.560 | What if integration is where we began?

00:13:20.840 | So what that, what that, it honestly changes everything.

00:13:24.320 | If that is your lens, if you're looking through a lens of integration, you stop asking questions

00:13:31.320 | like, well, how can I make the most of this day off that I have?

00:13:35.720 | How can I make the most of the, everything no longer becomes about making the most of.

00:13:41.080 | How can I be here right now and honor who I am and who's in front of me and my season

00:13:46.400 | of life?

00:13:47.600 | It's just a very like, um, it's a very present perspective.

00:13:53.440 | And I will say it's a bit of a hard sell though, because it's not, it's not very like you can't

00:14:00.040 | make a list out of it.

00:14:01.360 | It's not a very sexy sell.

00:14:03.280 | And yet it's the most sustainable fulfilling sale I think that there is for most people.

00:14:08.880 | What's the role, because I can't help like connecting to this.

00:14:11.840 | I'm thinking about the role of technology in this, right?

00:14:16.000 | Because I went back, it was like a hobby horse of mine.

00:14:19.200 | I'm very interested in like the state of book publishing on these topics versus other discussions

00:14:25.040 | on these topics.

00:14:26.040 | And I actually think book publishing has gotten to like a, an interesting place.

00:14:30.080 | I have it here somewhere.

00:14:31.080 | I went through and actually got the top 10, top 10 bestsellers on Amazon right now in

00:14:38.080 | time management.

00:14:40.240 | And I went through them and like, right now in this moment, um, very few of the books

00:14:45.640 | that are big right now are about chart 10 X scene or doing more.

00:14:50.880 | There's almost like we're in like a back flat, a backlash.

00:14:53.720 | Some of these I don't know as well.

00:14:54.720 | Number one right now is buy back your time.

00:14:56.000 | I think that's like one of these entrepreneur books where it's basically saying, um, you

00:15:01.760 | outsource stuff.

00:15:02.760 | If you're an entrepreneur, like you see that as a business investment like any other, uh,

00:15:06.680 | that book seems really popular.

00:15:07.680 | Slow productivity is up there, which is, you know, the opposite of that four hour work

00:15:10.800 | week was like the original, uh, complete dismissal.

00:15:14.920 | I mean, it's interesting.

00:15:15.920 | Ferris is seen as the optimization man, but that book was like the original work is so

00:15:19.460 | unimportant that you should just figure out a way to take advantage of the internet to

00:15:23.120 | automate something that makes you just enough money that you can learn tango.

00:15:26.200 | It's like nihilistic, almost like anarchist book.

00:15:29.320 | The organized mind is up there right now, which is just, that's actually a neuroscience

00:15:32.400 | book.

00:15:33.400 | It's a 12 week year, which is about like, Hey, business is not as valuable as we think.

00:15:36.600 | Right.

00:15:37.600 | 12 week year is, is I think a traditional corporate get more done, right?

00:15:42.160 | Because it's like compress your timeframe, so you'll be more urgent.

00:15:44.720 | Yeah.

00:15:45.720 | Yeah.

00:15:46.720 | It's kind of like if you rename what a year is, you have more years available to you.

00:15:49.720 | So you can hustle harder because you have the pressure.

00:15:52.200 | Yeah.

00:15:53.200 | Um, and then we have essentialism, your book, art of laziness, getting things done.

00:15:57.320 | So it's like the, and getting things done also, I have this long argument about is that's

00:16:01.280 | like a cry to cure.

00:16:02.880 | This is like David Allen.

00:16:03.880 | Like, how do you like maintain your sanity when we have so much damn stuff we have to

00:16:07.480 | do all day.

00:16:08.480 | It was like this weird sort of nihilistic, um, but online the conversation is much different.

00:16:15.880 | Everything you're talking about feels like it is in lights on the marquee online, the,

00:16:22.800 | the morning routine stuff, the, the fitness stuff is crazy.

00:16:26.920 | I mean, men and women, every man doing fitness stuff online is like a superhero and muscle

00:16:32.660 | body.

00:16:33.660 | And it's like, well, why aren't you like this at 44?

00:16:34.660 | Like, what are you doing with your time?

00:16:35.780 | This is only three hours a day and weighing all your food or whatever.

00:16:39.800 | Why can't you do this as well?

00:16:41.160 | Um, the, the connection, the optimization, the hustle culture.

00:16:44.160 | And so this is all, it's like the, the heart of productivity discourse had moved online

00:16:47.960 | and it seems like it's for the worst.

00:16:49.280 | And I'm wondering if because of algorithms, because of what works, it's the, the discourse

00:16:55.780 | around productivity because it has shifted online has shifted towards extremes.

00:17:01.020 | And that is why like a book like yours is resonating with so many people because we're

00:17:06.080 | tired of that online, that online space is treatment of this is really trying to exhaust

00:17:11.120 | us.

00:17:12.120 | Well, it's because contentment does not drive the social media marketplace.

00:17:19.080 | You know, the messages of contentment are not going to keep people on line, you know,

00:17:23.360 | so it's, it is a, there's always a deficit, you know, we have to be told where the bucket

00:17:28.800 | is emptying or where we can do better so that we'll stay on and we're like, Oh wait, is

00:17:33.120 | that a problem?

00:17:34.120 | I guess I, okay, well let me see how this guy can do his burpees when he's doing it.

00:17:38.240 | You know, like it's, it is kind of silly.

00:17:41.360 | And I think to a point we are, I think most people are intuitive and wise enough to sort

00:17:49.200 | of see, you know, you know, they take kind of the, the, is it like the blue pill or the

00:17:54.880 | red pill?

00:17:55.880 | It's like the machinery of it all.

00:17:58.760 | And yet we're so easily influenced by it because contentment is not something that is highly

00:18:06.800 | valued for a lot of people in Western capitalistic culture.

00:18:12.440 | Like it's just not something, it doesn't, it doesn't drive anything forward.

00:18:16.460 | It doesn't make money.

00:18:17.680 | If you're happy with your life, if you're happy with what you have, if you're like,

00:18:21.000 | you know what, this is enough, that's not great for the industry.

00:18:25.980 | And so it's, it makes sense to me that the online messaging doesn't align as much as

00:18:35.040 | the publishing world because it's not going to, you know, it's not going to keep the internet

00:18:41.400 | moving anyway.

00:18:42.400 | But I also think it just, it just speaks to our, I don't know, it's like there's this,

00:18:50.600 | there's this deep need that we have to feel like that our lives mean something, you know,

00:18:56.840 | that they matter, that we want our lives to have purpose.

00:19:00.120 | And if we don't already have an answer to that question for our own lives, we're going

00:19:04.680 | to fill in the blank with what the internet is telling us we should do because we don't

00:19:09.280 | have anything there.

00:19:10.440 | So that's why really the ultimate work that I want to do is to help people name that.

00:19:15.240 | To where are you right now?

00:19:17.120 | What matters to you right now?

00:19:19.200 | What makes you feel like yourself?

00:19:20.880 | How do you feel like you're contributing?

00:19:22.600 | Are you resting?

00:19:24.080 | Like you are a, like a tree planted by the water, right?

00:19:28.620 | You are not a balloon floating in the air.

00:19:30.800 | Like let's be planted where we are.

00:19:33.360 | And I think that that, the more that people are that way individually, the more that contentment

00:19:40.960 | and just things being enough as they are.

00:19:46.300 | It feels like you're not being counterintuitive.

00:19:49.360 | It feels like you're not being countercultural.

00:19:51.080 | It's like, again, back to your college admission thing that you were trying to convince these

00:19:54.560 | people there is a third way to think about this, but they didn't know because the only

00:19:59.160 | things that were filling in the blanks were these two extremes.

00:20:01.400 | So it's like, we're trying, we're trying to like widen, widen that gap and help people

00:20:06.840 | see it through a completely new paradigm.

00:20:09.320 | Well, so maybe you can help me because, you know, I'm a recovering greatness addict.

00:20:13.680 | This is a, like a recurrent theme in my own life is moving beyond that narrative, which

00:20:20.180 | has been a driving narrative for my life for a while.

00:20:23.220 | And now I'm kind of at the limits of the various things I've been doing for 20 years.

00:20:26.660 | Yeah.

00:20:27.660 | You've done a good job.

00:20:28.660 | You have a lot of things that you've been great at.

00:20:30.700 | Yeah.

00:20:31.700 | But I'll tell you, it's a, it's Sisyphean, right?

00:20:34.600 | Because no matter where, this is what, this is what I found.

00:20:36.900 | It's my book is number two on the New York Times bestseller list.

00:20:40.780 | So what's the thought?

00:20:41.880 | What does it take to get the number one?

00:20:43.680 | Exactly.

00:20:44.680 | You know, that's the, it's Sisyphean.

00:20:45.680 | The finish line is always moving.

00:20:46.880 | It's always moving.

00:20:48.020 | But there is a satisfaction, right, in the hatching of the plan.

00:20:51.680 | I think this is a lot of what sort of that hustle oriented productivity is leveraging.

00:20:58.180 | There's a satisfaction in I have a plan.

00:21:01.200 | Imagining the reward of the plan allows you to get a down payment on feeling good about

00:21:07.320 | it.

00:21:08.320 | Yep.

00:21:09.320 | And so there's that kind of fulfillment you have.

00:21:10.320 | I don't know if it's distracting from life or orienting life or whatever when you have

00:21:14.100 | some sort of plans in place.

00:21:15.480 | So I'm trying to figure out with your help, how does a integration mindset sort of replace

00:21:22.520 | that need to have too much, have your focus on a future state that like, oh, I have this

00:21:27.520 | plan and this exciting, I can daydream about the plan.

00:21:30.600 | How do we get more satisfaction out of being more present with our life as it is now and

00:21:37.920 | what's good about it and what we're doing with it?

00:21:39.080 | Like help me walk through as recovering greatness addict, how to move more towards like an integration

00:21:44.040 | mindset.

00:21:45.040 | I think that you are and I'm the same way.

00:21:48.680 | People who are really good planners in the normative way, people who are really good

00:21:55.320 | at organization and the way that the narrow way that we've all been taught it should look,

00:22:00.120 | it's harder for us to actually disengage it because we are rewarded by it because we're

00:22:05.640 | good at it.

00:22:06.640 | We can get that dopamine hit when we make the plan and when it might come true.

00:22:12.280 | And so it's actually, I think, harder work for people who are naturally gifted at preparation

00:22:17.600 | and organization and even optimization.

00:22:21.080 | And if your actual work, if your career trajectory is one that people would envy, people see

00:22:29.000 | you, I know people see you as somebody that they want to follow.

00:22:35.000 | Like I like, Cal has done it.

00:22:38.080 | What did Cal do?

00:22:39.080 | How can I do it like Cal did?

00:22:40.920 | So it's actually a lot harder for people who are good at the thing to disengage from the

00:22:46.040 | thing.

00:22:47.040 | And I will say, you had mentioned it before, that plan is capitalized because it's an acronym.

00:22:52.880 | So the three of the letters of that acronym, the P, A, and the N, prepare, adjust, and

00:23:01.040 | notice.

00:23:02.480 | Those three words work in harmony with one another.

00:23:08.000 | They work equally with one another.

00:23:10.160 | And what has happened is that we have been given this very narrow view of what it means

00:23:17.760 | to be a planner.

00:23:19.640 | And I think a way that we can disengage from this idea of greatness and looking at our

00:23:26.240 | lives through a lens of integration and almost in this state of recovery almost is to look

00:23:31.960 | to the people in our lives who are actually really, really good, maybe not at preparation,

00:23:36.320 | but at making adjustments in the moment, who are really good at noticing what's happening

00:23:40.640 | in the room, that they know what's happening with the people that we walk in and we're

00:23:44.680 | like, "Okay, here's our checklist.

00:23:45.680 | Let's go."

00:23:46.680 | And they walk in and they go, "The vibe in here.

00:23:50.160 | Somebody's worried about their job."

00:23:51.680 | Or there are people who are really gifted at these other just as important elements,

00:23:58.520 | in my opinion, of planning.

00:24:00.120 | And so if we can expand our definition of what it means to be a good planner into someone

00:24:08.560 | who is also really good at pivoting, really good at immediate problem solving, that they

00:24:13.480 | don't have to have the color-coded list, that they don't have to have the Google calendar

00:24:18.120 | that's set up in such a way that every single minute is accounted for, that there are people

00:24:23.360 | who can, again, they're intuitive and they walk in a room and they're relational or they're

00:24:27.080 | quiet or they just know what's going on under the surface for people.

00:24:33.880 | People like that have been left out of the conversation of what it means to be a good

00:24:39.880 | planner and therefore they don't have a problem with what I'm saying.

00:24:43.080 | They're like, "Oh, I'm on board because you're leaving space for me."

00:24:47.440 | For people like you and I, it's like, "Oh, wait a minute, but I'm really good at this

00:24:51.800 | though.

00:24:52.800 | Why do I have to stop?"

00:24:55.920 | And I would say that for people like both of us who have this addiction, have had this

00:25:04.480 | addiction to greatness and optimization and leveling up all the time, for us to look back

00:25:11.160 | and go, "What is it done?

00:25:15.600 | What is it good for?"

00:25:17.640 | It has gotten me things, of course.

00:25:21.600 | It's gotten us career success or whatever.

00:25:23.780 | But if you stop and go, "If that's where I begin, if I open my eyes in the morning and

00:25:32.840 | I put on a pair of glasses and that lens is a lens of greatness, how much am I going to

00:25:37.240 | get done today?

00:25:38.440 | How impressive am I going to be?

00:25:40.640 | How organized am I going to be?"

00:25:42.320 | In this very normative sense that I'm already good at and have been affirmed in, listen,

00:25:46.920 | it is really hard to switch those glasses to glasses of integration because it's smaller.

00:25:55.200 | It makes people smaller in a way at first that's really scary, I think.

00:26:01.120 | I think moving to a place of integration, you take yourself off the pedestal in a way

00:26:08.280 | that's like, "Oh."

00:26:10.120 | It's uncomfortable because for many of us, I will not speak for you in this.

00:26:15.560 | My success, I was valedictorian of my high school class.

00:26:20.120 | I was voted most dependable by my senior class.

00:26:25.000 | In second grade, teachers were like, starting then, I was always the room monitor when the

00:26:30.600 | teacher left the room.

00:26:32.360 | I do things well.

00:26:34.040 | I can be depended on and I'm going to be excellent at them.

00:26:37.900 | If that has been your trajectory for a long time, it's really hard to separate that from

00:26:41.520 | your value as a person.

00:26:44.240 | It's really scary and this doesn't have to become like a therapy session or whatever.

00:26:49.520 | I think that's why it's hard because when you're rewarded for being great and you're

00:26:54.400 | great at being great, why would you want to let that go?

00:26:57.960 | But it's also exhausting on the inside and you think if you don't, like if I didn't make

00:27:02.120 | the New York Times for this book, I've written three books.

00:27:04.720 | The first two made all four lists and this one I'm like, "Well, if I don't make this

00:27:08.640 | one, everybody in the industry is going to think I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm

00:27:10.760 | talking about," even though the book came out in a really competitive month.

00:27:15.160 | Greatness becomes this, it's like the core of your identity in a way that takes you out

00:27:22.560 | of your own life.

00:27:25.480 | It's kind of like you have to choose.

00:27:27.080 | I have to choose.

00:27:28.240 | I would rather be a person who is okay with the disappointment of not being great at a

00:27:34.240 | thing and being with myself in that, than being great and feel like a husk of a person.

00:27:41.280 | It's a very soul-level choice.

00:27:45.140 | Let's stick with it then.

00:27:46.140 | You mentioned, from a practical perspective, you mentioned the pyramid.

00:27:49.560 | So it's prepare, notice, adjust, and they're supposed to be in balance, right?

00:27:53.960 | So it's sort of like an equilateral triangle, if we're going to be nerdy about it.

00:27:57.040 | Yeah, a tetrahedron I think is what the real word is.

00:28:00.960 | Even tetrahedron doesn't sound as good as a planned pyramid, so we had to go with planned

00:28:04.120 | pyramids.

00:28:05.120 | Now you're speaking my language.

00:28:06.120 | Like, let's get into the right polygon references.

00:28:08.080 | Yeah, that's right.

00:28:09.080 | Yeah, let's talk about.

00:28:10.080 | If there's no trigonometry in your time management book, what are you doing?

00:28:14.800 | What are we doing?

00:28:15.800 | Yeah, what are we doing?

00:28:16.800 | What are we doing here?

00:28:17.800 | Absolutely.

00:28:18.800 | All right, so walk us through that, though.

00:28:19.800 | Okay, so prepare, adjust, notice, trying to keep these three things in balance.

00:28:23.000 | And then you have live, I've heard it both described as the foundation and also as the

00:28:27.440 | point.

00:28:28.440 | It's the point.

00:28:29.440 | Yeah, the point.

00:28:30.440 | So the foundation of the pyramid itself is what matters to you in the season that you're

00:28:35.120 | in.

00:28:36.120 | Okay.

00:28:37.120 | All right, so walk us through this.

00:28:38.120 | Yeah.

00:28:39.120 | Yeah, we're going to make.

00:28:40.120 | So let's throw a triangle on the ground.

00:28:41.120 | Okay?

00:28:42.120 | That's the foundation of our pyramid here.

00:28:43.120 | The triangle on the ground is what matters to you in the season that you're in.

00:28:45.960 | What matters to you right now, if you think back, Cal, to when you were 23, what mattered

00:28:50.720 | to you at the age of 23 probably does not matter now.

00:28:54.520 | And it shouldn't.

00:28:55.520 | And I think a lot of times what matters to us is going to change as we grow and we evolve

00:29:00.600 | as people and our families change and all of that.

00:29:03.480 | So it's wise, it is so wise to not lock in on something that matters to you 15 years

00:29:11.560 | ago.

00:29:12.560 | You're allowed to change your mind.

00:29:13.640 | You're allowed to change your mind.

00:29:15.320 | So name what matters to you right now in the season you're in.

00:29:17.240 | And then you have those three.

00:29:18.240 | And you're saying, by the way, that that scale of season can also be very variable, right?

00:29:22.680 | Like this could change throughout the year as well as change throughout your life.

00:29:26.440 | It could change over the decades, but it also could change within the month.

00:29:29.240 | Like you have these different scales, which I think is an important concept.

00:29:32.360 | Yeah.

00:29:33.360 | Like my, we are recording this the week after Thanksgiving.

00:29:37.880 | My daughter has had pneumonia for the last 10 days.

00:29:41.080 | We have been in, that's been the season that we're in.

00:29:43.400 | What matters right now with the kids sick at home and we're moving into like family

00:29:47.000 | coming in and I have to cook a big meal and all the things, your priorities have to change

00:29:52.640 | based on what matters right now.

00:29:54.640 | It is a deeply, deeply wise thing to do.

00:29:57.180 | And the reason that it feels strange to do that, just to, you know, go down a rabbit

00:30:01.800 | trail really quickly is because most of the traditional productivity books historically

00:30:08.680 | have been like, make a plan, you know, figure out your idea life 30 years down the road,

00:30:14.800 | reverse engineer it and stick with the plan.

00:30:16.880 | And if you don't, you're an undisciplined person.

00:30:19.620 | Like that's sort of the vibe.

00:30:21.240 | Yeah.

00:30:22.240 | Like that's not sustainable or realistic for anyone really.

00:30:26.480 | So yeah, name what matters in your season.

00:30:28.680 | Your season can be whatever boundary you need it to be.

00:30:35.640 | And then the three sides of the pyramid are prepare, adjust and notice.

00:30:39.920 | And just for like the sake of under, I won't go through all of them, but just to kind of

00:30:43.980 | get a vibe, there are principles for each one of these letters to help you sort of know

00:30:48.600 | like, how am I, where, where am I in this?

00:30:51.960 | Just reminders for us.

00:30:53.160 | So like prepare, some of the mindsets for prepare are not everything can matter.

00:30:57.320 | As you're preparing, you have to believe that not every single thing in your life can matter

00:31:03.400 | in an equal way.

00:31:04.840 | A plan that you make, a plan is an intention.

00:31:06.920 | It is not a pass fail.

00:31:08.600 | If you, if you prepare something and it doesn't go to plan, it doesn't mean it failed or that

00:31:11.920 | you failed.

00:31:12.920 | It just means the intention didn't happen.

00:31:15.060 | It's life.

00:31:16.060 | It's the way it goes.

00:31:17.520 | For adjust, match your expectations to the energy that you're willing and able to give.

00:31:23.200 | If you have, so often if we decide that we're going to do something, we have expectations

00:31:28.840 | for something and it doesn't happen.

00:31:31.040 | We try to hack our energy rather than adjust our expectations, right?

00:31:35.980 | So as that's a way that we adjust.

00:31:37.880 | For notice, staying grounded is better than staying on task.

00:31:43.040 | That's a weird one for people to get behind.

00:31:44.320 | They're like, wait a minute.

00:31:45.640 | The task is all the things.

00:31:46.800 | I'm like, I think you need to start by being with yourself and in that moment going, what

00:31:52.120 | matters most right now?

00:31:53.240 | Like if for me, the times that take me out of that, the quickest are my children.

00:31:59.840 | And so if I, if a kid is like still lying on the couch and his ride is picking him up

00:32:05.480 | for school in five minutes and he has not brushed his teeth and he doesn't have shoes

00:32:08.040 | on and he's 15 years old and I start to go, he can legally drive a car in a year and he

00:32:13.240 | still forgets to brush his teeth.

00:32:14.920 | What are we doing?

00:32:15.920 | I will come, I will turn into a rage mother, a Hulk monster.

00:32:20.640 | But if I go, okay, hold on, notice what matters right now actually is that I stay connected

00:32:25.760 | with my kid.

00:32:27.000 | Not that I force him to be this compliant person that I want him to be.

00:32:30.280 | For me, that's my goal.

00:32:31.920 | So I'm going to go, what matters right now?

00:32:33.960 | I'm going to stay grounded rather than getting him on task.

00:32:36.840 | I'm going to be kind so that I can go to him and stay kind and preserve this relationship

00:32:41.600 | and then also be like, get off the couch and go brush your teeth.

00:32:43.920 | You know, it's like we're not, it's really important when I talk about this, it's really

00:32:49.320 | important to make sure that people understand, I'm not saying don't do your stuff.

00:32:56.920 | Don't be good at your stuff.

00:32:58.480 | Don't try to even be great.

00:33:00.000 | But if you begin with this far out future view, with this lens of I've got to do all

00:33:06.720 | of it perfectly well and I cannot deviate off course, rather than this fluid, very human,

00:33:13.120 | wise responsiveness to your life, you will burn out so fast.

00:33:17.360 | But you can, I believe you still, you get your things done better and in a way that

00:33:24.880 | brings you more fulfillment when you are a tree by the water.

00:33:30.640 | You know, when those roots keep going deep and then back to the pyramid, the L is the

00:33:34.760 | point.

00:33:35.760 | It's the top.

00:33:36.760 | It's pulling it all up.

00:33:37.760 | It's pulling it all up to the point of it all.

00:33:38.760 | The 2D shape into a 3D.

00:33:40.960 | Yes.

00:33:41.960 | To live our lives, to be where we are, to enjoy our people, to go outside and do the

00:33:47.240 | fun things we like to do.

00:33:50.680 | I don't want to live only when I'm 70 years old and I've done all of these things to get

00:33:57.640 | me to this future ideal place.

00:33:59.560 | I want to live today.

00:34:00.560 | I want to live my life right now.

00:34:02.120 | Well, I mean, first I'll say to my audience, partially why this is important is we don't

00:34:09.080 | cover this well.

00:34:10.960 | I don't do a ton of time management advice.

00:34:14.680 | I'm known for it.

00:34:15.680 | But what I do talk about tends to be very narrowly focused.

00:34:19.160 | I think this is another issue.

00:34:21.400 | Very narrowly focused on the modern knowledge work, digital office, and it's like a survival

00:34:27.000 | game.

00:34:28.000 | It's this, "Oh my God, I'm getting 150 emails a day.

00:34:32.400 | I'm feeling murderous towards the inventor of Zoom.

00:34:37.000 | And we got to fix this, but how do I survive that eight hours in the office without going

00:34:43.600 | insane and actually getting things done?"

00:34:46.160 | But what I've learned, and I have to argue with my audience a lot, is the mindset that

00:34:50.160 | you would use for, "How do I manage this weird, terrible, busy period at the beginning

00:34:55.040 | of COVID where everything's moving online in a particular job, and I have 10 bosses

00:34:58.720 | yelling at me?"

00:34:59.840 | It doesn't translate to other things.

00:35:02.120 | It doesn't translate to all the other parts of your life.

00:35:04.240 | It's not a good way to go about almost anything else that's happening in your life.

00:35:07.520 | It is very artificial.

00:35:08.760 | I had this, actually we agreed in the end, I had this conversation with Oliver Berkman

00:35:12.680 | about it, where I was basically, he was talking about his ideal way to plan, and I think there's

00:35:18.120 | a lot of similarities with your book.

00:35:19.960 | And I was like, "Yeah, that is right.

00:35:22.560 | And the stuff I'm talking about is some unfortunate reality of particular jobs, and you want to

00:35:28.960 | get away from it as quickly as you can throughout your day."

00:35:31.080 | So I want to first give that disclaimer to my audience.

00:35:33.160 | This is great because I don't cover well, "How do you deal with all of your life?"

00:35:37.840 | And not just, "How do I deal with my email inbox?"

00:35:39.960 | Which is much more boring.

00:35:40.960 | How do you deal with all of your life?

00:35:42.240 | But guess what?

00:35:43.240 | How do you deal with your inbox is essential to how you deal with your life.

00:35:47.000 | I mean, it is.

00:35:48.920 | It's all connected.

00:35:49.920 | It's a lot harder to talk about how to deal with your whole life because it's so big.

00:35:55.000 | The email problem is something that feels, "Okay, well, this is manageable.

00:35:58.040 | I can figure this out.

00:35:59.040 | I can focus my energy on this and solve this problem, that this is a huge problem in my

00:36:03.520 | work."

00:36:04.520 | And for a lot of people, it is.

00:36:05.520 | So it's deeply valuable.

00:36:06.520 | But you're right, most of those approaches, you're right, they don't translate as well

00:36:13.680 | to the rest of life very easily, very seamlessly.

00:36:16.180 | And something that's interesting about the book is in the prepare leg of that base, the

00:36:20.960 | edge of that triangle that builds up into the pyramid, you have advice for systems,

00:36:27.720 | right?

00:36:28.720 | When you're preparing, trying to figure out what makes sense to do, you talk about what's

00:36:31.840 | a good way to think about a to-do list, for example, and you have a nice model there for

00:36:36.440 | something that's less strict than specific days.

00:36:40.280 | You talk about a planning rhythm, how you're kind of planning out what you want to get

00:36:43.440 | done at different timescales.

00:36:45.000 | But the vibe is, these systems aren't the hard part.

00:36:48.720 | Yes, you need to write down what you need to do somewhere so you don't have to keep

00:36:52.720 | track of it in your head.

00:36:53.720 | Yeah, you need to think ahead.

00:36:55.720 | Someone's coming and you want to know that, like, I need to start preparing a week in

00:36:59.000 | advance or whatever.

00:37:00.720 | But it's de-centered in your book.

00:37:03.440 | It's actually the psychology is what's more important.

00:37:06.920 | The systems are kind of the easy part, like, yeah, be organized and make some reasonable

00:37:11.560 | decisions.

00:37:12.560 | But you have to adjust and you have to notice and you can't fall away.

00:37:15.840 | The adjustment is a fantastic point.

00:37:17.560 | I mean, I often talk about fairytale planning.

00:37:20.040 | It's like when we're sitting down and trying to plan our day or our week, we write like

00:37:23.520 | a fairytale about, in theory, if you are taking Felix Felicitas or whatever the potion is

00:37:28.960 | from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, I definitely don't have three boys who read

00:37:31.800 | that book recently.

00:37:33.800 | In the perfect day, like we often plan, like, wouldn't it be great if I was able to get

00:37:39.200 | like three hours of riding in plus this plus this workout.

00:37:42.240 | But during the workout, I'm going to do my conference scheduling for my kids on the Peloton

00:37:46.320 | bike.

00:37:47.320 | And then, like, as I move and you lay out this day and then you fall in love with it.

00:37:50.760 | What a great fairytale.

00:37:51.760 | I'm really comforted by the idea of a world in which all of this works out like this and

00:37:56.120 | you feel great about that fairytale world you built.

00:37:58.980 | And then, like, 12 minutes into that day, of course, the Peloton bike is on fire and,

00:38:04.200 | you know, you've missed your kid has to come home sick or whatever.

00:38:07.240 | And you're like, oh, this wasn't a realistic plan.

00:38:09.920 | It was a fairytale plan.

00:38:11.240 | So that ability that like adjustments the whole game, it's like a rough intention and

00:38:15.840 | then you start to roll with it.

00:38:17.840 | It's like I think of mission control in Apollo 13.

00:38:22.680 | You're rolling with the oxygen tanks exploded.

00:38:25.000 | Like that's your skill is like rolling with and making reasonable decisions, not making

00:38:30.120 | a fairytale come true.

00:38:31.120 | Yeah, that room was that room was full of problem solvers.

00:38:33.840 | Yeah.

00:38:34.840 | It wasn't full of planners.

00:38:35.840 | It was full of problem solvers.

00:38:37.680 | I say I say this in my work a lot.

00:38:40.040 | Learning to pivot is more important than learning to plan.

00:38:44.320 | I think we are better served as people in cultivating the skill or maybe just the comfort.

00:38:56.040 | Maybe it's not even a skill.

00:38:58.040 | Maybe for some of us, it's just like I am not going to freak out because this fairytale

00:39:03.000 | plan didn't work or even just a basic non fairytale plan.

00:39:06.960 | I'm going to be OK that not everything is OK.

00:39:10.760 | Yeah.

00:39:11.760 | Like I'm going to be here.

00:39:12.760 | That's that's what it is.

00:39:13.760 | That's the psychology of it is because we are required.

00:39:17.560 | Our lives require us to pivot far more than they require us to plan.

00:39:23.440 | But we don't recognize that really, because so much of what we have been taught, especially

00:39:30.760 | in the early 2000s, was it was all about preparation.

00:39:36.160 | That was the whole thing.

00:39:37.960 | So it makes sense that people of this generation, so to speak, are like, well, what am I if

00:39:45.760 | I don't have my list ready to go?

00:39:48.040 | Like if I don't know what my day is going to look like, if I don't have, you know, theme

00:39:51.120 | work days, if I don't if everything doesn't fit into this category or bucket or whatever.

00:39:55.920 | And it makes me think of recently I did an interview on another show that's hosted by

00:39:59.880 | two women and one of them, she's like I have she held up her she held up her planner and

00:40:06.800 | like she had post-it notes.

00:40:07.800 | She had lists everywhere.

00:40:08.800 | Right.

00:40:09.800 | And then the other host, she said, I've never made a list of my life.

00:40:13.200 | And and they said, what do we do?

00:40:15.000 | Like how do we how do we meld these?

00:40:16.960 | Like what do we need to do to get to the middle?

00:40:18.520 | And I said, y'all, you don't have to make a middle.

00:40:20.960 | Like do what works for you.

00:40:22.160 | You don't have to fall into this normative way of planning that we've been taught because

00:40:27.200 | it really only works well for a small sliver of people who are naturally wired to do that.

00:40:33.560 | And so there's this we have to give ourselves permission to be okay that the things fall

00:40:42.640 | apart 12 minutes in, that that's expected, that we really that us expecting our plan

00:40:48.860 | to not work is not fatalistic.

00:40:51.480 | It's not even it doesn't keep us from getting our stuff done.

00:40:56.680 | I just think it's realistic.

00:40:57.680 | Yeah.

00:40:58.680 | And we go, it's probably it's probably not going to work.

00:41:01.840 | If it does, that's so rad.

00:41:03.600 | But at least to have a baseline to work from rather than nothing, or that it's so rigid

00:41:12.360 | that it's not flexible, right, because most of our lives are deeply flexible, especially

00:41:17.800 | a woman's life if she's at home taking care of her kids and she's doing you know, like,

00:41:22.520 | I have spoken to so many people over the last couple of years about this book and the number

00:41:28.160 | of women especially who are like, I feel so seen because like 93% of the time management

00:41:37.240 | books are written by men and 70 to 90% of them are read by women.

00:41:44.320 | And so we need a broader definition of what it means to not necessarily just plan or organize

00:41:53.440 | but to really live and these ideas of contentment and pivoting that these things are valued

00:42:01.200 | at a very high level above greatness, that we value those things more than we value the

00:42:07.560 | greatness.

00:42:08.560 | It doesn't mean we dismiss the greatness.

00:42:09.560 | But you're right.

00:42:10.560 | It's like they're decentered.

00:42:11.800 | The greatness and the task fulfillment is decentered.

00:42:16.480 | The humanity is in the center where I think it needs to be.

00:42:20.520 | Well, I want to talk about the audience point because I think this is also a fascinating

00:42:24.360 | point about the genre in general.

00:42:26.360 | So I mean, this book, though, has a broad audience, you're very specific in the book

00:42:31.040 | that you have women in mind, in particular, yes, as an underserved, as you said, 93% of

00:42:37.040 | time management productivity books are written by men, I probably wrote 25% of those.

00:42:42.380 | And they're all real good.

00:42:43.380 | I've read every single one of them.

00:42:44.940 | But they're not.

00:42:46.700 | But the readership is not only split halfway, but even you said 70% Yeah.

00:42:52.700 | And I've come to realize this later in my career that they're the people writing these

00:42:57.660 | books, we don't necessarily think how specific our voices, because there's really only been

00:43:02.580 | two major there's been two dominant voices as far as I can tell in time management productivity.

00:43:07.660 | We have the corporate voice, which was like the dominant voice from like Stephen Covey

00:43:11.180 | on through the 90s, which was very much to like, this comes out of helping people in

00:43:15.940 | like a large company, like manage and be a manager, this goes all the way back, right.

00:43:21.020 | And then we got the kind of the wave that I was a part of, which I think of as like,

00:43:24.740 | I don't know, the, the blogging bro voice, this was like the more entrepreneurial coming

00:43:31.260 | out of like new media online spaces coming out of like the blog revolution in the 2000s.

00:43:35.600 | And there's like Tim Ferriss, and there's me, etc, whatever.

00:43:39.260 | Those are two very, those are perfectly fine voices, like they're speaking to particular

00:43:42.260 | audiences, but they're very specific.

00:43:44.660 | And I learned this one, because, you know, some of my books have sold enough copy now

00:43:47.500 | as I hear from a lot of people, and man, I learned quick, the way I think and talk about

00:43:52.000 | things is not universal.

00:43:53.860 | And it took me a while to understand this, because I'd be like, I don't understand these

00:43:56.340 | complaints.

00:43:57.340 | Like, I'm, I'm very engineering and logical, I guess this not I am delivering information

00:44:02.780 | that is like an optimal way of thinking about how the brain functions.

00:44:06.820 | And so now I've really come to appreciate this idea that there needs to be many different

00:44:10.780 | flavors of talking about these issues.

00:44:14.100 | So talk about so with women audiences in particular, this has been very ill served.

00:44:19.680 | So in what way is like, what is it?

00:44:22.580 | What is it that you're noticing was missing that you're able to fill in?

00:44:27.860 | Yeah, it's, I think an important word here is that what we have been given is just incomplete.

00:44:36.580 | None of it's wrong.

00:44:37.900 | You know, I mean, there are definitely things that I don't align with that I don't, I'm

00:44:40.780 | like, I don't really want to live my life that way.

00:44:43.420 | But it's not that it's like fundamentally wrong.

00:44:46.880 | It's just we all get to choose, right?

00:44:48.660 | But the, the advice has been incomplete, especially for women.

00:44:51.880 | And this is, this is a pretty broad, this is a pretty broad thing.

00:44:56.260 | But we live, we live in a patriarchal society, it was built for men by men.

00:45:01.820 | And women have not had a whole lot of time where their voice has been loud enough for

00:45:08.060 | the changes and adjustments that they are, that we are wanting on a on a cultural level,

00:45:15.780 | on a systemic level.

00:45:17.220 | There's just not been a lot of time where those things are now so part of the culture

00:45:24.260 | that we can feel it.

00:45:26.200 | But I still feel, I still feel like more is expected of me than is expected of my husband.

00:45:41.080 | Like women are not allowed to be mediocre.

00:45:44.600 | We can't be mediocre mothers, mediocre spouses or partners.

00:45:48.200 | We can't be mediocre to our jobs.

00:45:49.680 | Like we have to be excellent at everything.

00:45:53.640 | Kids can be mediocre in places and they don't really get a lot of flack for it.

00:45:58.440 | And so when you are in a position where you are holding almost, it's a generality here,

00:46:07.280 | but it's a generality for a reason.

00:46:09.200 | It is something that is very true for a lot of women.

00:46:12.300 | Women are expected to hold more than their male counterparts are in the home and in work.

00:46:17.120 | And we're the ones probably getting the Christmas gifts and figuring out like the logistics

00:46:22.880 | of getting the kid their thing for this, you know, field trip that they're doing.

00:46:26.040 | And they're just all of these invisible pieces that are floating around all the time.

00:46:30.240 | My husband doesn't know the names of my kids, friends, parents.

00:46:34.920 | He doesn't have their numbers.

00:46:35.920 | I do.

00:46:36.920 | Yeah.

00:46:37.920 | Right.

00:46:38.920 | Because I'm the one who's home.

00:46:39.920 | I work from home.

00:46:40.920 | He doesn't.

00:46:41.920 | And so it makes sense that I would have them.

00:46:42.920 | But also it's too accepted that women are holding so much more, but women are also not

00:46:48.200 | given as much support to do those things.

00:46:50.280 | And one of the ways that that shows up is in the books that are available to women,

00:46:55.280 | that they are written not with their own life experience in mind.

00:47:00.720 | And we're also not paying attention to like, you can, you can read the plan to be a dude.

00:47:04.160 | I don't come after you.

00:47:05.400 | Like it's, I don't come after you hard because I think that this is actually a way of viewing

00:47:12.560 | our lives that is attractive to a lot of people, men and women.

00:47:18.200 | Because we, a lot of us are like, man, trying to be great at everything really is exhausting.

00:47:22.280 | Let's find a, let's find a new paradigm.

00:47:23.980 | So it's not, it's not exclusively for women, but there is also, there's a, there's a chapter

00:47:28.560 | in the book about periods, because listen, if you're a lady and your energy is changing,

00:47:33.520 | if you're in your forties and you're going through perimenopause right now, and you have

00:47:36.160 | a part-time job of having to eat protein now, it's a whole thing that dudes just don't understand.

00:47:42.480 | And they're, it's okay that they don't, but we need wider resources for the lived experience

00:47:49.600 | and the cultural pressures and the relational expectations and all of these things that

00:47:54.240 | women hold.

00:47:55.640 | And so if you say, yeah, you need to prioritize getting eight to 10 hours of sleep every night.

00:48:01.520 | And I'm like, well, are you, my kid, my kid wakes me up in the middle of the night.

00:48:05.920 | What are you talking about?

00:48:06.920 | That's not a thing.

00:48:07.920 | Like they're just, it feels unrealistic, but what, this is the last thing I'll say about

00:48:12.640 | this because I can get a little heated because I care so much about women having their, their,

00:48:20.680 | their lives honored in this way.

00:48:24.680 | But what, what I think happens is that if all of the resources say, here's how it's done

00:48:34.680 | and a woman cannot do it, she thinks she's the problem.

00:48:40.340 | It's not the system.

00:48:41.840 | It's not that that book's not for me or this part or this part might work, but not the

00:48:45.700 | whole thing.

00:48:46.700 | Like it becomes an identity thing.

00:48:48.600 | It's like, the problem is me.

00:48:50.880 | And so the very beginning of the plan is to show us all the problem is not you.

00:48:58.200 | The problem is not you.

00:48:59.200 | The problem is that this industry of time management and productivity is built on a

00:49:02.640 | lens and a, and a centering of greatness and optimization and leveling up.

00:49:08.280 | It has been historically, it is starting to shift, which I am so glad that we're part

00:49:11.840 | of that.

00:49:13.560 | But if you are, all you're hearing is be great, do great.

00:49:17.320 | It's possible.

00:49:18.320 | See, everyone else is doing it.

00:49:20.000 | And you're just over here struggling day to day and you're like, I can't even take a nap.

00:49:24.960 | Like what are you talking about?

00:49:27.520 | It's, it feels really devastating on like a soul level and because we think the problem

00:49:33.840 | is us and the problem is not you.

00:49:36.120 | It's not you.

00:49:37.120 | Well, I think it's much needed.

00:49:40.960 | I think my, my impression of male centric time management productivity is that it's

00:49:47.360 | sort of a psychological vacuum.

00:49:49.720 | So like there's, there's very little psychological reality in it because it's men are more simplistic

00:49:57.080 | about it.

00:49:58.080 | It's all kind of optional.

00:49:59.080 | Like, Oh, wouldn't it be cool?

00:50:01.200 | It'd be cool to get in really good shape, but like, I don't, I'm also, if that's not

00:50:06.640 | me and I've got the, the, the belly and the, that's fine.

00:50:10.040 | Like a high five, like you do you, like you don't feel, it all feels optional.

00:50:13.600 | It might be really cool to get super organized and make my, my web business like take over

00:50:18.800 | whatever.

00:50:19.800 | It would be cool to pursue that, but like, I don't care if I don't.

00:50:22.560 | And like, you know, no one's going to judge me if I don't.

00:50:24.480 | And so there's a lack of a lack of psychological language, I would say.

00:50:29.640 | So I mean, I, I can imagine there's multiple groups that we need specialization in this

00:50:35.720 | topic.

00:50:36.720 | Yeah.

00:50:37.720 | Because I mean, everyone has to deal with the issue of just life, organizing life, figuring

00:50:43.320 | out what to do or what not to do, how to, you know, make sure the electric bill gets

00:50:47.060 | paid or figure out.

00:50:48.740 | And there's so many different relevant ways of receiving that.

00:50:52.240 | So I really love this idea and this is the obvious big missing one because it's half

00:50:56.240 | the population.

00:50:57.240 | So like, let's start with women.

00:50:59.560 | This is half the population and the majority of actually the readers of these books.

00:51:03.680 | But you could imagine other, age stratified is something I've been thinking about recently.

00:51:09.120 | Absolutely.

00:51:10.120 | If you're 24, maybe more of like this, the more like online, you know, I don't know,

00:51:15.320 | get after it, like whatever, like actually maybe that's like keeping you out of trouble.

00:51:18.800 | And maybe that's good when you're in your 20s and you have all this time and you're,

00:51:22.040 | you're laying a base of whatever that'll be, so then you can like, as you have kids and

00:51:25.480 | you have no time, you can, you'll be okay or say, I don't know, maybe that's better.

00:51:29.040 | I hear a lot from people who are nearing retirement as another group and like, well, wait, I'm

00:51:33.560 | thinking about things completely differently.

00:51:35.320 | Like how do I, so I love this movement and I, and I, and I love what you're doing with

00:51:39.960 | it.

00:51:40.960 | So I'm a, and you say the response has been strong.

00:51:41.960 | I'm not surprised that you're, yeah, it has been.

00:51:45.320 | It's definitely been stronger from women than from men.

00:51:48.480 | I, I've most of the rooms I speak to are majority women, but I spoke at a conference a few weeks

00:51:55.080 | ago and it was, it was half and half and it was, it was really interesting that I had

00:51:59.840 | to, I had to kind of get the, get the guys on board a little bit because it was a room

00:52:05.240 | full of entrepreneurs.

00:52:06.880 | They were very successful people.

00:52:08.640 | Again, their greatness is honored and, and, and that's not bad, like that's morally neutral,

00:52:13.640 | right?

00:52:14.640 | It's a great thing.

00:52:15.640 | It's a great thing to have a life experience, this, this psychological language.

00:52:21.240 | You're right.

00:52:22.240 | It's not something that we're hearing enough across the board.

00:52:24.840 | Women are hearing it and they're resonating with it very quickly because they're like,

00:52:27.760 | oh, I know that's my life.

00:52:29.120 | I see that.

00:52:30.120 | But we, I, I want, it's why I'm so grateful that you even asked me to be on your show

00:52:35.160 | because this is not a message for women.

00:52:37.840 | This is a message for all people.

00:52:39.520 | Like it makes, I told the men in this room, I said, you might not, you might not align

00:52:43.560 | with this.

00:52:44.560 | This might not, this might not be how you want to see your own life, but I guarantee

00:52:48.280 | that there are people on your team, it's how they would want to see theirs.

00:52:51.600 | And so it makes you a better leader for you to understand and widen the perspectives of

00:52:58.160 | the people that you work with, that not everybody wants to be accessible 24 hours a day.

00:53:04.400 | They don't want that kind of job.

00:53:05.760 | They don't, they don't want that kind of, um, the, the hustle and the, and the greatness

00:53:10.360 | that they may, that you think that they aspire to, they actually don't.

00:53:14.680 | And so let's honor people's humanity more than you, you know, prize their productivity.

00:53:20.160 | Let's start there and, and see them in that.

00:53:23.760 | And so it's, it's a really important message for all of us to just be exposed to.

00:53:30.600 | It's exposure therapy right now.

00:53:32.160 | Like I just want, I just want more people and men to hear that women, we feel like we're

00:53:40.120 | whining that we're like, it's just so hard to take care of the kids and to do the thing,

00:53:46.200 | you know, dah, dah, dah, because it's not your lived experience.

00:53:48.640 | It's very easy to say, well, maybe they just need to figure out a different system.

00:53:53.160 | You know, we're, we are all under the umbrella of thinking, well, maybe you just need a different

00:53:57.120 | system rather than recognizing that the system could be broken in some ways.

00:54:02.000 | You're in a different system.

00:54:03.000 | We're in a different system.

00:54:04.000 | Yeah.

00:54:05.000 | We're swimming in different water.

00:54:06.000 | Yeah.

00:54:07.000 | Yeah.

00:54:08.000 | And so I, as a man, re-knit two different ways that I found that really useful.

00:54:11.360 | Right.

00:54:12.360 | So one was, as you were just talking about being able to better understand other people,

00:54:17.760 | especially women's experience.

00:54:19.000 | And two, just a straight up advice I found really useful because there is not a lot of

00:54:24.800 | advice out there in that space that says, okay, when you're, when you're not just focusing,

00:54:29.240 | focusing exclusively on greatness on a particular goal is like everything.

00:54:34.400 | How do you structure your life?

00:54:36.320 | Like what do you do?

00:54:37.600 | That is a huge void.

00:54:38.600 | I mean, just speaking more like, you know, across all audiences, that's a big void that

00:54:43.560 | they're now is starting to be more of these sort of humanistic productivity books that

00:54:48.080 | are, that are coming at it.

00:54:49.080 | But it's, it is a new thing and it is a huge void for when you're stepping away from, I'm

00:54:56.080 | just all in on like crushing my 10 X business, what you step into.

00:55:01.400 | And I think for a lot of people, a lot of men, when they step, when they, they, it's

00:55:04.200 | not that they even step out of it, they just, it's not going well for them.

00:55:06.960 | It's too easy to fall into various addictions, for example, to just get lost, be it in substances

00:55:12.880 | or be it in, you know, digital distraction or just anger.

00:55:16.520 | And like, it's, it's difficult to, how do you structure an integrated life?

00:55:20.480 | And that space I think is a, is a critical space.

00:55:22.640 | And so I loved it yet the period chapter was a little less relevant to me, but if you are,

00:55:29.400 | if you are around or live with a woman who has a menstrual cycle, it's actually, it makes

00:55:36.640 | you compassionate.

00:55:38.040 | Like my, I call my whole thing, compassionate time management.

00:55:42.800 | I want us to be more compassionate towards ourselves and towards other people, however

00:55:47.200 | they choose to run their lives and spend their time.

00:55:51.500 | We all get to choose, but we just haven't had tools that align with this very different

00:55:58.120 | choice of contentment and integration versus the future and greatness and all of that.

00:56:03.760 | We needed a new lens and that lens is being expanded by a lot of people right now.

00:56:09.240 | And it really is a beautiful thing.

00:56:10.560 | I give our generation credit for that.

00:56:12.120 | Can we, can we take credit for this?

00:56:13.720 | Right.

00:56:14.720 | Can we, can we millennials take, take credit for, I mean, I feel like we are the generation

00:56:20.320 | who figures these things out.

00:56:21.320 | I had this whole gloss before that, like we were the generation that was raised on follow

00:56:24.800 | your passion and then went through the financial crises, 9/11, these various things and realized

00:56:30.320 | like, wait a second, your job's not going to be the source of all of your meaning in

00:56:33.200 | life.

00:56:34.200 | And then we were the ones who got really interested in the 2000s and lifestyle design and life

00:56:39.720 | hacking and trying to figure out like, well, how do we, how do we like rebuild things?

00:56:44.680 | And we're very self-reflective in that way.

00:56:46.380 | So I think it makes sense that our generation is starting to free time management and productivity,

00:56:52.840 | I guess, from the Stephen Covey generation.

00:56:55.640 | I know, I think so.

00:56:56.960 | We're like curious problem solvers on a very soulful human level.

00:57:01.880 | Like, okay, let's, I want to, I think it has, there has to be something to that of not growing

00:57:08.180 | up with technology at your fingertips either, you know, like being skeptical of it.

00:57:13.080 | Like I was taught to like, don't trust Wikipedia, anybody, like all of those things, like, but

00:57:19.760 | I agree with you.

00:57:20.760 | I think there's a, we can make jokes about it, but it is really fulfilling to see this

00:57:27.040 | wave happening where people feel lighter about their own lives in a way they haven't before.

00:57:34.120 | I think our generation having kids change things like I say, this has been my big revelation

00:57:41.360 | was when my three boys all got to basically elementary school age, there was this huge

00:57:47.640 | shift where it was, oh, we need every minute of that time possible, which felt very different

00:57:54.240 | than before, where it's more sort of a survival mode, all hands on deck is this kid like physically

00:58:00.200 | and safely being taken from here to here and has like food or whatever, you know.

00:58:03.500 | It's all logistics.

00:58:04.500 | For a while, it's just logistics.

00:58:05.500 | It's logistics.

00:58:06.500 | And then that very much, I was like three boys, she wants to spend as much time with

00:58:08.680 | that as possible.

00:58:09.680 | And it completely changes the way you think about, for example, work, you're like, okay,

00:58:12.480 | well, so like, how does work serve to help set up a lifestyle that has like as much time

00:58:18.720 | as possible for this?

00:58:19.720 | Because there's like an eight year window or something like that, where that's really

00:58:21.600 | important.

00:58:22.600 | And I think a lot of this, at least for me, is parenthood has been a big driver of these

00:58:26.920 | evolutions, these evolutions of productivity thinking.

00:58:31.000 | And we hit various limits as we, you know, as we get to certain ages, as we get into

00:58:36.440 | our forties, it's like, okay, I kind of am as far as I'm going to be able to go in this

00:58:40.880 | pursuit or that pursuit.

00:58:42.660 | And it turns out I'm not going to play professional baseball.

00:58:44.480 | Okay.

00:58:45.480 | I'm finally able to say like, that ship has sailed, like this is how successful of a person

00:58:49.300 | I'm going to be in my job and I'm, it's good.

00:58:52.380 | I there's, I don't see there being a big jump after this.

00:58:55.320 | There's a big sort of shift, like, okay, so how do we organize life?

00:58:58.460 | It just seems like the right conversation to be having right now.

00:59:02.640 | I agree.

00:59:03.640 | Yeah.

00:59:04.640 | Yeah.

00:59:05.640 | And your book does it beautifully.

00:59:06.640 | Thank you.

00:59:07.640 | Thank you.

00:59:08.640 | It means, it means the world that you read it and are, yeah, talking about it.

00:59:12.640 | And I'm just, I'm excited.

00:59:15.280 | I sometimes call myself Pollyanna with a clipboard.

00:59:18.480 | I'm so idealistic and I'm like everything, you guys, we can make this world so beautiful.

00:59:23.700 | And here's the list of how to do it.

00:59:26.140 | I just feel really excited about this message getting, getting spread out there that people

00:59:31.860 | start to feel like themselves in their own lives rather than machines and something of

00:59:38.180 | their own manufacturing.

00:59:39.180 | That's not the way any of us want to live.

00:59:42.460 | So thanks for giving it a platform.

00:59:44.140 | Of course.

00:59:45.140 | And one of the platforms, we only have a minute left here.

00:59:46.780 | You have a sort of well-known extensive platform online.

00:59:51.220 | Maybe can you help explain for my listeners how to get all things Kendra?

00:59:56.060 | Yeah.

00:59:57.060 | All Things Kendra is at thelazygeniuscollective.com.

01:00:00.060 | I have a podcast, The Lazy Genius Podcast, comes out every Monday.

01:00:04.100 | We're coming up on 400 episodes, so that's, we've been doing this a long time.

01:00:07.660 | And yeah, The Plan is my third book.

01:00:09.740 | The first two, The Lazy Genius Way and The Lazy Genius Kitchen are, you know, kind of

01:00:14.580 | foundational books.

01:00:15.580 | I reference a lot in the episodes, but everything is meant to help you name what matters to

01:00:21.240 | you and feel permission to live your life in a way that makes you feel like a person.

01:00:26.340 | Okay.

01:00:27.340 | So go to that website, go to that podcast.

01:00:28.340 | You have a great newsletter, big Instagram presence as well.

01:00:32.300 | Yeah.

01:00:33.300 | Yeah.

01:00:34.300 | Or so I hear.

01:00:35.300 | It's like, it's big-ish and I'm not there very often to make it bigger because I just

01:00:38.660 | choose to be lazy about Instagram and that's okay.

01:00:40.900 | I like it.

01:00:41.900 | Yeah.

01:00:42.900 | Yeah.

01:00:43.900 | Okay.

01:00:44.900 | All right, Kendra.

01:00:45.900 | Well, always a pleasure to talk with you.

01:00:47.740 | Thanks for joining us.

01:00:48.740 | Thanks for helping to share the word.

01:00:49.740 | The book is The Plan.

01:00:50.900 | Check out The Lazy Genius Collective as well to find out more.

01:00:54.420 | And thanks for coming on.

01:00:56.260 | Thanks Cal.

01:00:57.260 | All right.

01:00:58.260 | So that was my interview with Kendra Adachi, brought to you by Defender, a vehicle designed

01:01:04.500 | for those seeking adventure in a distracted world.

01:01:06.780 | So thank you Defender for sponsoring today's interview.

01:01:08.860 | Well, I really liked that discussion.

01:01:10.820 | We covered a lot of ground.

01:01:13.300 | There's one point in particular that I want to underscore here.

01:01:15.780 | I really liked early on in the interview where Kendra set up this dichotomy, which she says

01:01:23.500 | is very common in the communities and spaces where she often exists.

01:01:28.700 | And she says there's often this dichotomy, especially among women in productivity discourse,

01:01:32.820 | where you have two choices.

01:01:35.360 | You can be the super achiever, your eating year, whatever they ask for you to do now,

01:01:41.820 | eating grams of protein an hour while working out two hours a day at the gym and crushing

01:01:48.180 | it with your Instagram photos and working 50 hours a day and all this sort of craziness.

01:01:54.820 | Or you have to be, and I believe her term was something like, have the wild hair energy,

01:01:59.620 | the messy hair energy, which is you have to lean into.

01:02:02.540 | Your only other option is to lean into, oh my God, look how messy my life is and my act

01:02:06.380 | isn't together.

01:02:07.740 | You know, this is just how it is.

01:02:12.460 | Everything is completely chaotic.

01:02:13.460 | And she's saying it doesn't have to be either of those things.

01:02:15.540 | Neither of those are very good options.

01:02:18.340 | But there's an option in the middle, and I think we often forget this option because

01:02:22.340 | that first option, the sort of super achiever option for all of us, when it becomes unattainable,

01:02:29.260 | we know we need to do something different.

01:02:31.320 | But if our only other option is just let everything go to chaos, that's just as bad.

01:02:37.340 | So I think of compassionate time management as one way of describing an approach to that

01:02:42.500 | space in between.

01:02:44.940 | It's a way of saying, yeah, you got to care about things, you need to plan your to-do

01:02:50.140 | list, you need to look ahead of what's coming up, you need to make decisions and pivot when

01:02:54.740 | something doesn't work and make priority decisions about what should I do instead and how are

01:02:58.140 | we going to pull this off.

01:02:59.140 | And if this kid's going to be homesick for school, there's a complicated logistical chain

01:03:03.440 | that makes the rescue of the Apollo 13 capsule seem somewhat simplistic by comparison.

01:03:06.980 | I got to get on the ball, I got to make this happen.

01:03:09.400 | You need to do those things, but also have compassion for yourself, not try to do too

01:03:13.780 | many of those things.

01:03:16.020 | Recognize that some seasons of life, it's just this is what's going on, is trying to

01:03:19.620 | keep up with details, and other seasons of life, you have some freedom to actually push

01:03:23.120 | on something or to push harder on an optional project, and that can shift over time, and

01:03:28.140 | that's okay.

01:03:29.140 | And then things can go slower.

01:03:30.140 | I talk about this in my book, Slow Productivity, work at a natural pace.

01:03:33.340 | We don't know, looking back historically, when we see people who did great things, we

01:03:36.820 | don't know how long it took them, and if they took twice as long or half as long, we wouldn't

01:03:41.020 | know the difference.

01:03:42.020 | We would just say that was a cool book you wrote, it was a cool impact you had, so be

01:03:45.700 | able to let things take more time, to be lazy about more things so you can be a genius on

01:03:50.260 | other, to not have to be the very best at X, Y, and Z, but to be good at something that

01:03:54.980 | matters on your own terms, and that's good enough.

01:03:58.900 | That middle space between the messy hair energy and the superachiever is a space that we don't

01:04:04.500 | explore enough.

01:04:05.500 | I'm going to explore that more with my deep life philosophy, by saying the goal is a lifestyle,

01:04:12.020 | not a grand accomplishment, not a specific thing you can point to and impress other people

01:04:15.980 | by, not a particular number in your bank account, but a holistic view of your lifestyle, opens

01:04:19.740 | up a lot of freedom for how you get there.

01:04:21.460 | And in particular, if a particular path you're taking is not working well, it's stressing

01:04:25.580 | you out, it's unsustainable, you can switch to something else.

01:04:28.180 | You can give yourself that grace.

01:04:29.380 | So I really love this type of thinking.

01:04:31.060 | I have been using the term humanistic or humane productivity in some of my recent conversations.

01:04:38.340 | Kendra has this idea of compassionate time management.

01:04:41.060 | We have Oliver Berkman is in on this space, too.

01:04:43.260 | He's kind of approaching this space from a related direction.

01:04:45.580 | I guess Oliver is saying something sort of similar to Kendra, at least in the part of

01:04:49.740 | be organized enough to make progress on the thing that matters and not to let too many

01:04:54.980 | things fall through the cracks and then be okay with that, not having to optimize everything

01:05:01.200 | else.

01:05:02.200 | Enough.

01:05:03.200 | You got enough time towards something.

01:05:04.420 | You have your arms around enough things.

01:05:05.700 | I think Oliver, I think Kendra, I think me, we're all kind of surrounding similar topics.

01:05:10.860 | And it's a great one.

01:05:11.860 | So Kendra added a great voice to this conversation.

01:05:16.020 | And so I was glad to have her on the show.

01:05:17.700 | So thank you for that, Kendra.

01:05:18.700 | We'll have another one of these episodes coming up pretty soon, you know, again, semi-regular.

01:05:22.420 | I do these as I have interesting people to talk to.

01:05:25.260 | And there's a person I've wanted to talk to who agreed to talk to me recently.

01:05:28.460 | No spoilers.

01:05:29.460 | I'm going to try to get that up, you know, maybe in a couple of weeks or so.

01:05:33.220 | And we'll continue.

01:05:34.220 | Do you have any feedback about the show?

01:05:36.140 | Your best bets to send that to producer Jesse at jesse@calnewport.com.

01:05:38.920 | He makes sure I see what I need to see.

01:05:41.260 | Be back on Monday, of course, with our normal episode of the show.

01:05:44.660 | Until then, stay deep.

01:05:47.340 | Hey, if you like this video, I think you'll really like this one as well.

Stop Pursuing Greatness & Do This Instead (Change Your Life In 2025) | Cal Newport & Kendra Adachi

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