Current State of Credit Cards Points and Predictions for 2024 with Sebastian Fung

00:00:00.000 | It's fashion. Thank you for being here in person.

00:00:02.640 | Thank you for having me.

00:00:04.280 | Yeah. So for people who don't know you, I gave a little bit of an intro,

00:00:07.280 | but tell me about how you got into this game.

00:00:09.640 | Yeah, I kind of started my career in finance, moved into tech,

00:00:13.320 | did a bunch of startup stuff and then got very obsessed of points,

00:00:16.860 | mostly because my player to Mandy wanted to travel a ton.

00:00:20.220 | And I was like, how do I do all this stuff about paying an arm and a leg?

00:00:24.400 | I think one big trip that really pushed it was a last minute Japan trip.

00:00:29.060 | And we paid something like twelve or thirteen hundred dollars for economy.

00:00:31.840 | And I'm like, wait, why am I paying so much money for economy?

00:00:34.700 | And then I found to this whole points rabbit hole.

00:00:37.280 | I knew about credit cards before, but I was always on team cashback

00:00:40.520 | back in the day where I was like, oh, just optimize your categories.

00:00:43.540 | And that makes the most sense.

00:00:44.920 | But then I realized you can get so much more value from points

00:00:47.720 | and that actually moves the needle the most compared to cashback.

00:00:51.060 | Like I like cashback.

00:00:52.480 | I think a lot of people can benefit from it, especially if you have a family

00:00:55.860 | and you're not traveling as much or you just don't care about that.

00:00:59.120 | But I think especially when you're young, points drive so much value

00:01:02.360 | and just open so many doors.

00:01:03.800 | Is there a type of travel you think is necessary for points to be worth it?

00:01:07.500 | I think it does lean more towards aspirational business

00:01:11.240 | and like first class type of trips are just like more expensive trips

00:01:14.200 | for economy stuff.

00:01:15.500 | I still pay out of pocket generally because the value is not there

00:01:18.880 | or I get OK value, like maybe one point five to two cents per point.

00:01:22.180 | But it's not like the astronomical 10 cents per point.

00:01:25.220 | So for me, a lot of it is like, how do I as a P get the VIP experience

00:01:30.580 | and unlock this whole thing that I didn't think I could do?

00:01:34.660 | Like growing up, like pretty lower middle class.

00:01:37.660 | I never thought I'd be able to fly business, let alone first.

00:01:40.700 | So the fact that I can actually like even even if it's just for a few hours,

00:01:44.740 | like see what it's like to be on the other side and experience that

00:01:48.140 | and see these other people who are like dropping 20K on these flights.

00:01:52.280 | It's I don't know if it's nice.

00:01:54.120 | It feels really good to sit next to someone be like, how much do you pay?

00:01:56.720 | I haven't actually asked.

00:01:57.920 | I don't know if you ever asked, but I've always wanted to ask.

00:02:00.260 | How much did you pay for that?

00:02:01.220 | I've done that in Bora Bora,

00:02:02.760 | where we were just hanging out and talking to other people.

00:02:05.460 | And then some people were like, oh, I pay 30.

00:02:07.800 | And then someone else was like, oh, you guys are losers.

00:02:09.940 | We did it through Costco and we paid twenty five thousand.

00:02:12.960 | And I was like, oh, I didn't pay that much money at all.

00:02:15.480 | But I didn't want to like burst their bubble.

00:02:17.480 | But you kind of did you kind of just to open them.

00:02:19.840 | But next time, here's the tricks.

00:02:22.240 | Yeah, I think a lot of people like the idea of points.

00:02:24.840 | But then like it's one of those things that you keep in mind,

00:02:27.580 | but you never really act on it.

00:02:28.780 | I like a lot of people will be like, oh, you can get a lot of value.

00:02:31.580 | That's nice. Whatever.

00:02:33.480 | Yeah. So it is tough, I think, to like make that switch.

00:02:35.760 | And like that first step is always harder.

00:02:38.020 | So I want to come back to these aspirational trips at the end.

00:02:42.220 | But first.

00:02:43.060 | I feel like there are very few people that are as in tune

00:02:46.800 | with everything that's going on with the points, miles, status world.

00:02:50.760 | So I wanted to just bring up the topic of where we're at right now.

00:02:54.140 | We're recording this in September 2023.

00:02:56.600 | Delta has just kind of told everyone that loves flying Delta

00:03:01.080 | that it's going to be a lot harder to get status

00:03:03.280 | unless you spend a ridiculous amount of money.

00:03:05.640 | By this point, we probably already will have covered the major news there.

00:03:09.320 | But at the high level, status is changing

00:03:12.480 | and it has on other airlines over the past few years.

00:03:15.080 | Where do you feel like things are in the world of points and miles?

00:03:18.500 | What's happening now?

00:03:19.660 | So I feel like most of the airlines have told people that

00:03:23.060 | either intentionally or unintentionally, that they actually don't care

00:03:27.300 | if you fly them a lot.

00:03:28.500 | They care more so how much money you spend with them.

00:03:30.940 | So even if you look at your net, it's changed from like the old system

00:03:34.080 | to the current one.

00:03:35.180 | It's very much contingent on you spending either a crap ton of money

00:03:38.340 | on your credit cards or flying a lot of them.

00:03:40.960 | But then it's not even economy flying that you want, like premium

00:03:43.680 | last minute business class type flying where you might be going to the airport

00:03:47.420 | and paying $1,000 for like SFO to LAX.

00:03:50.460 | So Delta's kind of in that same realm.

00:03:52.920 | They have simplified the whole process a lot more,

00:03:55.160 | but it's still very much targeted towards businesses.

00:03:58.100 | Like even back in the day, you could get two Delta Reserve cards.

00:04:00.560 | Spending your way there was about $240K, but it was a complicated.

00:04:04.140 | You were like learning about MQT waivers, MQM boosts and stuff like that.

00:04:08.040 | And now it's like just spend $400K, spend $400K and you get status or $350K.

00:04:12.980 | Yeah. A lot of money for most businesses.

00:04:17.240 | And do you care about status?

00:04:20.080 | Is it something that at least let's start with airlines?

00:04:22.520 | Is that something you're even trying to get anymore?

00:04:25.280 | So I think a lot of people don't rightfully don't like status

00:04:29.400 | for a lot of good reasons because they don't get upgrades.

00:04:32.620 | So back in the day, we were chasing United status.

00:04:34.960 | And then I think the most we ever got up to was platinum.

00:04:38.800 | And then we realized that out of SFO, because like 43 or 50%

00:04:43.280 | of people flying through SFO like planes are United.

00:04:46.940 | So you're never going to get upgraded because there's too many people

00:04:49.340 | that have one K and global services that you can chase it.

00:04:53.020 | But you're not it's not going to help you as much as you think it is.

00:04:55.860 | So you pretty much want to get status with the second or third

00:04:59.980 | most like busiest airline from that airport.

00:05:02.860 | And for us as a fellow, it was Delta.

00:05:05.460 | And then if you're in Atlanta, obviously you wouldn't want Delta

00:05:07.900 | because there's too many Delta members

00:05:10.100 | and people who like just have unlimited corporate account money.

00:05:13.240 | So for us, we got Delta status.

00:05:15.300 | We liked it a lot because we were getting upgraded for our cross-country flights.

00:05:19.180 | We also fly during weird times.

00:05:21.140 | So that kind of helps.

00:05:21.980 | But like being able to get a decent business class seat

00:05:25.620 | for five or six hours is nice with the new change.

00:05:29.580 | I think we're kind of on the fence about how to play it.

00:05:32.280 | So next year, we're still going to be Delta Diamond.

00:05:34.760 | The year after that, I think unless we have some like weird

00:05:38.860 | astronomical business spend, it just doesn't make sense.

00:05:41.960 | And then even then it's like, well, there's an opportunity cost of like

00:05:45.100 | should I spend all this money on this card when I can just use a city

00:05:48.260 | double cash or like a lot of other cards where you get more value, right?

00:05:51.700 | I think we might chase American status mostly because the spend amount

00:05:56.580 | seems pretty reasonable for what we for the level that we want.

00:05:59.440 | And then for that level, pretty much the one below

00:06:04.180 | EXP, so I think it's platinum platinum pro.

00:06:07.780 | Yeah, that one gets you one world emerald status,

00:06:11.780 | which gets you in the first class lounges when you're flying abroad.

00:06:15.000 | So we go to Hong Kong like three to four times a year.

00:06:17.200 | And if I can scroll up into like the cafe Pacific first class lounge

00:06:22.260 | while flying economy or premium economy, that's not bad at all. No.

00:06:25.840 | It's funny, my adventures with status started with

00:06:29.580 | let's try to chase the highest status on United because we lived in

00:06:32.940 | San Francisco.

00:06:34.840 | And then it was, well, we're really only taking short haul trips

00:06:38.780 | where I just don't care or really long haul trips or using our points.

00:06:42.120 | Forget it. No status.

00:06:43.760 | So for the last four or five years, no status.

00:06:46.420 | And the one place where it started to bite us back was now we have two kids

00:06:51.260 | and we have an au pair.

00:06:53.360 | And sometimes we're traveling with four people or four, five people, four seats.

00:06:57.100 | And the reality, we just did a trip with no check bags.

00:07:00.780 | But the reality is when you're traveling with four, you got to check bags.

00:07:03.780 | And it was just like an added fee.

00:07:06.580 | So it's like, do I want to get a credit card to cover the cost?

00:07:09.440 | Or there was a challenge for United, which was like just in reach.

00:07:14.000 | It was like spend $1,200 in in three or four months on United.

00:07:17.840 | And we had a couple trips planned.

00:07:19.420 | So I went for it.

00:07:20.280 | And now I'm worried that I'm like kind of getting caught up in this silver.

00:07:23.680 | For anyone listening who knows United status, silver basically is like

00:07:27.180 | free checkbacks, like economy plus a check in if it happens to be available.

00:07:31.600 | So it's not special, but I'm finally back on that train.

00:07:35.460 | And now I find myself doing what I wanted to not do, which was

00:07:39.660 | I just want to take the easiest, most convenient flight.

00:07:41.840 | Now I find myself like, oh, can I take the United flights?

00:07:44.640 | I'm going to get free check bags.

00:07:46.640 | I will just get a credit card then.

00:07:48.040 | I feel like that makes so much more sense.

00:07:49.440 | You get like all the perks of silver or like even cold status

00:07:52.540 | without having to worry about that.

00:07:54.580 | Yeah, I don't know why.

00:07:55.540 | I think it's because I had a United card for so long.

00:07:57.780 | And then I just forgot to put a transaction on it and they closed it.

00:08:01.120 | And I was like, oh, do I have to really go back and get another new United card?

00:08:05.460 | But yes, it's another intro bonus.

00:08:07.360 | Well, OK, so we'll come to that.

00:08:09.880 | But yeah, so it seemed like it fit in.

00:08:11.640 | So I did it.

00:08:12.340 | We're going to get some free checked bags out of it.

00:08:15.140 | But at the end of the day, I feel like it's just the credit card

00:08:18.940 | can give you the low tier of status, which is like checked bags.

00:08:21.520 | You're probably not going to get preferred seats with any cards.

00:08:25.380 | Not with the United cards.

00:08:27.860 | Delta does get you upgrades even if you don't have status.

00:08:30.920 | But you're not going to like you're not going to get business or first

00:08:33.400 | and even first is domestic first, which isn't that exciting.

00:08:36.460 | But like you'll probably get like the premium comfort plus equivalent.

00:08:39.360 | So I'll probably play the play the cards through that.

00:08:42.460 | What about hotels?

00:08:44.740 | We don't talk a lot about hotel status.

00:08:46.280 | It feels like in the points and miles world, it's Hyatt Globalist or forget it.

00:08:49.880 | I think a big part of it, too, is because airline status is so hard

00:08:53.820 | to get with credit cards while they're kind of given out willy nilly

00:08:58.180 | with credit cards, hotel status is given out willy nilly.

00:09:00.920 | So you have like all these cards that give you either like mid level

00:09:03.720 | or even like higher level status.

00:09:05.720 | Hilton Diamond being one of the prime examples, right?

00:09:08.400 | Like you're getting a top level status by getting a credit card that runs you 450.

00:09:12.160 | And then I would argue that the card actually is a net positive

00:09:15.240 | because of all the credits and the free night.

00:09:17.400 | So you have all these people that have status because the math makes sense.

00:09:21.900 | And like I think people that watch YouTube are like, oh, yeah,

00:09:24.700 | if you run the numbers, it's logical.

00:09:27.680 | So I think the reason people like Hyatt is because that's the one

00:09:30.480 | you actually had to chase and had to do, meaning that there's less people

00:09:34.320 | that have it, meaning that it's more beneficial because upgrades

00:09:37.620 | actually come to you.

00:09:38.660 | If you have like 10,000 people that have status compared to 1000,

00:09:41.500 | that's up, especially in the US.

00:09:44.000 | Internationally, though, it doesn't really matter

00:09:46.160 | because everyone else doesn't have status.

00:09:48.560 | So like we'll go to like these like other like Southeast Asia,

00:09:52.000 | like the name or something, and they'll be like, oh, thank you for being like

00:09:55.140 | diamond and and for your two stays this year.

00:09:58.240 | And I was like, yeah, thank you.

00:10:00.180 | Thank you for having me, because they don't see that many business travelers

00:10:03.080 | and their credit cards don't come with status like ours do.

00:10:05.720 | Yeah, I think we've had that experience in Southeast Asia

00:10:10.020 | also with Marriott or the former Starwood.

00:10:12.660 | Any status was great.

00:10:15.500 | And I think Marriott, you can also get platinum with one card.

00:10:19.640 | Mary, you can get it with the Bonvoy Brilliant now

00:10:23.140 | before you had to spend 50 K before you had to spend 75 K to get it.

00:10:27.180 | And now you get it, which I think is good

00:10:29.180 | because a lot of hotels can be free breakfast as well

00:10:31.520 | and then upgrades up to like standard suites.

00:10:33.520 | Is there a hotel chain that if you were building loyalty, is it is it Hyatt?

00:10:37.760 | I found recently on Hilton, I dug into the terms.

00:10:41.460 | It was like, even if there's a nice room, they don't have to give it to you.

00:10:44.860 | Yeah, I think a lot of Hilton's are kind of annoying in that way

00:10:48.500 | because they'll lean into the terms

00:10:49.940 | and then it depends on who owns the hotel and the upgrade policies.

00:10:52.900 | But it's they lean very literally on the can give you an upgrade

00:10:57.440 | versus will give an upgrade.

00:10:59.400 | But theoretically, it just depends on the person.

00:11:02.200 | And then sometimes if you're nicer to them, I find that they are more likely

00:11:06.240 | to give you upgrades in the US.

00:11:08.040 | They just don't like I'll point out sometimes I'll open up the app and be like,

00:11:11.420 | hey, there is like a junior suite available.

00:11:14.680 | There's like three of them tonight.

00:11:16.260 | It's like, can I get upgraded to this?

00:11:17.880 | It's like, oh, it's not available in my system.

00:11:19.660 | Like, OK, like I get that they maybe have sales quotas,

00:11:23.020 | but still, it's annoying on that end.

00:11:25.200 | Are there are there any chains where you feel like you haven't had that problem?

00:11:29.000 | Because I imagine you probably have hotel status on all of them.

00:11:31.200 | Yeah, I feel like Hyatt is one of the best ones for that.

00:11:34.540 | That's why I like Hyatt.

00:11:35.740 | But their footprint is so much smaller.

00:11:37.540 | IHG is probably the worst with it, where even if you have like ambassador

00:11:41.780 | or like the top level status, they'll try to upsell you.

00:11:44.440 | Like we stayed at like an intercontinental and it was like empty.

00:11:48.120 | It was like during Christmas in Houston, and they were just trying to upsell us

00:11:52.860 | rooms, we're like, oh, can we get a tour of it?

00:11:54.720 | And I was filming the room.

00:11:55.600 | So I'm like, still get a free review of the room out of it.

00:11:57.860 | But then it's like, yeah, that'll be an extra two hundred.

00:11:59.960 | It's like, isn't this nice?

00:12:00.900 | I'm like, I think your hotel is not that busy.

00:12:02.540 | It's like it's Christmas Eve.

00:12:04.440 | Like, why are you trying to upsell me?

00:12:06.600 | And so if we look ahead, because I feel like you have a pretty good sense of this.

00:12:10.500 | Where do you think we'll start with status and then we'll move into credit cards?

00:12:14.280 | But where do you think 2024, what are we going to see?

00:12:16.480 | Are we going to see lots of big changes to programs?

00:12:18.520 | Do you think they've kind of all made their changes recently?

00:12:21.460 | Focusing airlines on spend and hotels, I guess, haven't really made too many changes.

00:12:25.760 | Is anything changing?

00:12:27.400 | I think American can be really smart here and like they could actually even do

00:12:32.000 | campaigns where they like bring Delta people over and convert them really well.

00:12:35.640 | So I think they should do that, but they're not doing it.

00:12:38.400 | I think United's in a good spot where they're like, we don't really care.

00:12:41.880 | Delta.

00:12:43.480 | I wonder if Delta will backstep the decision, but I kind of feel like they won't.

00:12:47.120 | So some people pointed to the fact that like they did make some changes

00:12:50.220 | because people complained and petitioned and it took like two years or something.

00:12:53.880 | But I'm like, is it really worth your effort doing it?

00:12:57.020 | Number one.

00:12:57.960 | And number two, is it like even if they do make a change,

00:13:01.760 | it's probably still going to be like a mid-step

00:13:04.960 | where it's just not going to be good for you anyways.

00:13:07.360 | So I think there are a lot of people pushing for change

00:13:09.600 | and like telling people to call the board of directors.

00:13:11.680 | But it feels like a fiduciary move.

00:13:13.900 | Like they make they made a decision that makes sense for the company.

00:13:16.980 | I've heard the argument that Delta has the best product,

00:13:20.880 | like the best hard product on the plane, seats, service amenities, everything.

00:13:25.020 | And so they can kind of afford to do this, because if you live in Atlanta,

00:13:28.260 | are you really going to change what you do like or not?

00:13:31.460 | And then American doesn't have the best product.

00:13:34.300 | And so they're like, we're going to make our program work for anyone.

00:13:37.660 | And Delta is kind of like, look, we're really good.

00:13:41.240 | We don't need as easy of a program and it might work.

00:13:46.040 | And I think it will actually attract the people they want,

00:13:48.540 | because even within the diamond rings, there are a lot of people that have status.

00:13:52.320 | So by moving the bar higher up, that means there's less diamonds,

00:13:55.680 | but probably more people that are higher off, like with businesses

00:13:59.020 | that spend more money that want to buy these tickets

00:14:01.960 | or like who spend a lot on their credit cards.

00:14:03.860 | So it kind of just works out for them where like they have a better experience

00:14:06.960 | within the diamond rank.

00:14:08.460 | So not everyone here is focused on status on hotels or airlines,

00:14:12.600 | but I think a lot of people here are focused on credit cards.

00:14:15.140 | What do you think is changing?

00:14:16.760 | The only big changes recently, and I say big, like if I look back over 2023,

00:14:22.240 | I don't feel like there was a lot that changed in the credit card game.

00:14:26.140 | But what do you think?

00:14:27.340 | I feel like it's mostly the Venture X coming into the ecosystem

00:14:30.380 | and then like disrupting everything.

00:14:31.720 | And now the Venture X business can disrupting on the business side.

00:14:34.920 | I would argue that even that card is actually the best business card out there.

00:14:39.020 | If you can use the credits and points and stuff.

00:14:42.560 | I think we probably at some point we'll see a bit more devaluation over there

00:14:46.620 | because it's kind of the Chase Sapphire Reserve strategy where you come in,

00:14:49.760 | you like break down doors, but then like you have to take a few steps back

00:14:52.420 | afterwards and like either increase the annual fee or like decrease in benefits

00:14:56.140 | after you get the market share.

00:14:58.160 | I think Citi is the big question mark that a lot of people have

00:15:01.540 | because they got rid of the prestige card and they haven't really been

00:15:04.900 | in this travel ecosystem.

00:15:06.500 | So like for a long time, they were in that for a long time.

00:15:08.880 | They were actually in first place and the platinum kind of like pushed past it.

00:15:12.440 | But I think back in like 2017,

00:15:15.720 | all the consultants had the Citi prestige because it was like an amazing card

00:15:19.280 | where they had this fourth night free perk.

00:15:21.220 | And if you were traveling for four nights every week,

00:15:23.560 | you would actually just get a ton of like statement credits

00:15:26.020 | and like kind of free money through your credit card.

00:15:28.800 | So the question is whether they're going to try to like come back

00:15:32.540 | into the top three or whether they'll try to go for the top again

00:15:35.240 | and how they play that.

00:15:36.680 | Well, it seems like Citi has there's rumors that a new card is coming.

00:15:40.500 | Yeah, the Strata Elite and Strata.

00:15:42.500 | Yeah, but we don't know what it is.

00:15:44.680 | We have no clue what it looks like or what it's going to do

00:15:46.980 | or whether it's going to be competitive, right?

00:15:48.880 | Like for the most for all we know, like they could come into the ecosystem

00:15:52.220 | and then if it's just like the luxury black card that is expensive

00:15:56.520 | but isn't good, then it's going to lose.

00:15:58.620 | I also think I've heard someone make very, very edge cases for Citi points.

00:16:03.160 | But if you already have some Amex points or Chase and Capital One,

00:16:07.840 | adding Citi doesn't get you much new,

00:16:10.340 | many new options other than I think Eva Air.

00:16:13.440 | Yeah, and then Eva Air is not even that good of an option.

00:16:16.780 | No, I'm not making a case for for like, go get a Citi card.

00:16:20.260 | So you get some points.

00:16:20.960 | I just think I think that was the only one that stood out as the unique option.

00:16:25.000 | And I know I'm a phony there.

00:16:27.560 | It's great business class, and it is great.

00:16:30.340 | And the economy is great.

00:16:31.300 | Like they're just very friendly. Yeah.

00:16:33.200 | And and I think they make some of their space available just to their program.

00:16:37.140 | So maybe that's a chase point or a Citi point benefit.

00:16:40.200 | I think for most people, the reason they go for Citi

00:16:42.440 | is because you've depleted all your chase options and then Amex is once

00:16:46.620 | in a lifetime, and then it's easy to deplete those options as well,

00:16:49.180 | because there's only so many MR earning cards.

00:16:51.160 | So you run and then you do Capital One generally early on.

00:16:54.860 | So Citi is that next logical step.

00:16:57.300 | And the fact that they do have

00:16:58.700 | some pretty good cards of like catch all options as multipliers,

00:17:02.460 | double cash being the good like two X equivalent.

00:17:05.540 | And then the Citi Premier is also surprisingly good, like as a workhorse,

00:17:08.900 | because it earns three X on so many categories.

00:17:11.500 | Gas is a big one that a lot of other like banks just don't focus on

00:17:15.780 | or they know that it's going to be like a money loser.

00:17:18.520 | So they just don't really focus on it at all.

00:17:20.620 | And the fact that Citi Premier earns a three X on it and it's uncapped

00:17:23.880 | is pretty good.

00:17:24.820 | And on Citi cards, I'll just you know, for any cards we talk about,

00:17:27.920 | if you go to all the hacks dot com slash cards, you can find the links

00:17:30.860 | for all the cards we're talking about, except Citi.

00:17:33.660 | We don't have any partners there, but you do.

00:17:35.760 | So if anyone here wants to get any of the cards that we're talking about,

00:17:38.860 | obviously support me.

00:17:39.900 | But also, if it's a Citi card, I'll send them your way.

00:17:42.560 | Yeah. Asksebi.com again.

00:17:44.460 | Asksebi.com A S K S E B B Y dot com.

00:17:48.160 | We'll put the link to that in the show notes.

00:17:49.900 | And what do you think's coming?

00:17:50.840 | So the only big change.

00:17:52.200 | So Venture X is a big thing.

00:17:54.240 | I think we have two of them in our house.

00:17:56.340 | Venture X business, I'm torn on.

00:17:57.940 | It's a massive sign up bonus.

00:18:00.040 | I think it's one hundred fifty thousand.

00:18:01.180 | But you have to spend thirty grand in three months.

00:18:03.580 | But I already have the spark cash plus, which is effectively equivalent.

00:18:09.680 | But I would argue that the annual fee there is a bit higher

00:18:12.420 | because you don't have that many credits offsetting.

00:18:14.560 | I think there's one where if you spend like one hundred or one fifty K,

00:18:18.420 | you get like one hundred back or something.

00:18:20.300 | One fifty back.

00:18:21.200 | I don't know if I put that much on it.

00:18:23.240 | But basically, there's nothing to help you offset it.

00:18:25.360 | While the Venture X business has the same three hundred dollars

00:18:28.280 | and ten thousand points.

00:18:29.480 | So for me, that's already like, OK,

00:18:30.980 | that covers annual fee more or less.

00:18:33.220 | Or you get five dollars in value.

00:18:34.820 | So that's cheaper on a net basis.

00:18:37.280 | And then you also have a priority pass card that works for restaurants.

00:18:41.420 | So if you don't want to run Chase Sapphire Reserve or JP Morgan Reserve,

00:18:45.320 | then that's an option.

00:18:46.960 | OK. And does the Venture X?

00:18:49.300 | The Venture X one works for only lounges.

00:18:52.700 | But the business is.

00:18:53.860 | The business as a filming works for restaurants as well.

00:18:56.600 | Oh, interesting. I didn't know that.

00:18:58.200 | And then I think one of the other big changes was Amex

00:19:01.400 | pulling back on Delta lounges.

00:19:04.040 | And I guess maybe I think it was it was it this year

00:19:06.540 | where they also cut back on guest policies.

00:19:08.640 | So I don't know if you spend 75 K.

00:19:10.600 | So I think for them, they're just trying to figure out

00:19:13.240 | how to make the lounge experience better, because if you have to wait

00:19:15.920 | 30 minutes to one hour to go into the lounge, then it's like a lose

00:19:19.380 | lose for that because people start canceling cards.

00:19:21.380 | People post on social media that the line sucks and that this is terrible.

00:19:25.560 | So how do you make it accessible to people,

00:19:28.220 | but also like make it a good experience?

00:19:31.160 | So I think for them, they've toyed around with increasing the annual fee.

00:19:36.000 | And I think that is something that we're probably bound to see in 2025.

00:19:39.240 | But then the platinum has done so well in the last two years

00:19:44.380 | because people have started doing the math and realize that it makes sense

00:19:47.740 | that there's just so many like the platinum numbers have doubled

00:19:50.220 | in the last like four or five years, which is a lot of people.

00:19:53.260 | And then the lounges have not kept up to it to that.

00:19:55.720 | Yeah. And then also a lot more people are traveling now.

00:19:58.120 | And I think there's also like younger people who might be getting it

00:20:01.860 | because of the perks or the flex on people and stuff.

00:20:05.100 | So it's just a lot of people have the cards and the lounge side has not kept up.

00:20:09.780 | Aside from lounge changes, what do you think happens with cards next year?

00:20:14.120 | Like, what do you think the you know, in a year from now when we're catching up,

00:20:16.920 | what is going to be the Venture X thing we talked about?

00:20:19.540 | I think a lot of people don't like high annual fees for exchange of credits,

00:20:25.200 | but I think that's the most logical move for like issuers and like everyone.

00:20:28.940 | Like it feels like the most win, win, win.

00:20:31.080 | So what I mean by that is, let's say you have a card that has an 850 annual fee,

00:20:34.680 | but you have like twelve hundred credits.

00:20:36.820 | So some people hate that because they're like, well, I can't use all these credits

00:20:40.060 | because I think we're conditioned to want to maximize everything.

00:20:42.960 | But the goal is necessarily to use every single credit to get enough value

00:20:46.900 | that you maybe break even for the credit card that way, like it's 815 credits.

00:20:50.120 | So all the other perks and the multipliers of the card

00:20:52.700 | and of just being value on top.

00:20:54.040 | So like positive expected value from it.

00:20:56.400 | So I think we're going to see more of that.

00:20:58.860 | Probably Citi's going to push that.

00:21:00.700 | But I think that's the most logical move because issuers make money.

00:21:04.080 | They probably have a bit more room to give you better multipliers, too.

00:21:07.340 | And then for the people that would benefit from those credits,

00:21:11.680 | it's also a win because you might come out ahead.

00:21:14.320 | Like for the platinum card, if you live in certain cities,

00:21:17.340 | if you don't use certain products, you might actually be losing money

00:21:20.560 | or you might be paying that two or three hundred dollars

00:21:22.680 | in order to get the card for lounge access and other perks.

00:21:25.320 | But there are people that live in New York and the Bay Area

00:21:27.780 | who already pay for Equinox where like they come out ahead.

00:21:30.900 | They're like, wait, I use all these services.

00:21:33.020 | I use Uber. I use Equinox.

00:21:34.860 | I like, yeah, I shop at Saks enough that I can use the credit.

00:21:39.400 | So it's I think we're going to see more of that,

00:21:42.460 | which might end up pissing some people off, but it's probably a net positive move.

00:21:46.500 | Yeah, I think.

00:21:49.340 | I probably come out.

00:21:50.300 | I wish I used Equinox so that I could get the value, but I'm pretty confident

00:21:53.680 | that just starting to use Equinox is going to not be a net net savings.

00:21:57.320 | So one tactic you can actually do is if you have a friend that uses Equinox,

00:22:02.360 | you could just let them swap your card in for a month and I'll use up the credit

00:22:07.060 | and then they can just treat you to dinner or something.

00:22:08.960 | That's what kind of I'm doing right now.

00:22:10.720 | I have like a lot of Platinum cards and then I'm just like, hey,

00:22:14.340 | Humphrey, you pay for Equinox already.

00:22:17.760 | Anyways, I have these like eight Platinum cards.

00:22:21.100 | Do you want to swap them in every single month

00:22:24.160 | to use up the credit and then you can pay for sushi?

00:22:26.240 | I'm just going to stand outside of the Equinox in in the Bay Area.

00:22:29.500 | So it's a portal every month. So it's easier.

00:22:31.180 | And I feel like there's bound to be a lot of tech people, you know, that have it.

00:22:34.240 | But it's just a weird conversation.

00:22:36.040 | Yeah, probably not worth the brain cells.

00:22:37.940 | Yeah. If I only have one.

00:22:39.580 | So if I had eight, maybe it would be worth finding that person.

00:22:42.820 | What do you think happens on the earning side?

00:22:44.580 | I know there was a big scare, I guess, when we thought this legislation

00:22:48.860 | was going to pass and cause all these challenges.

00:22:50.760 | It looks like it's not.

00:22:52.200 | Do you think credit card companies in the next year?

00:22:54.260 | Do you think that comes back?

00:22:55.240 | Do you think we see kind of legislation to try to limit the interchange

00:22:59.940 | that card companies can make?

00:23:02.040 | I think people are still going to try to push for it,

00:23:04.280 | whether it goes through or not is the big question.

00:23:06.680 | If it does go through, I think it actually kind of destroys

00:23:09.040 | their credit card space in a lot of ways.

00:23:11.480 | I think in the short term,

00:23:13.320 | we will see issuers just keep doing the same thing

00:23:16.660 | and maybe increasing the multipliers.

00:23:18.620 | It's really hard to do the opposite of like, like if you if someone told you

00:23:22.460 | we're going from 4x to 3x, that's going to piss off so many people

00:23:26.540 | and get so much churn from it that you're probably better off

00:23:28.840 | keeping the numbers and then trying to make money back somewhere else,

00:23:31.940 | whether that's like decreasing perks or increasing annual fees,

00:23:35.780 | because I think people are used to like that cycle of upgrades.

00:23:38.340 | And then you can always argue inflation like, hey, technically 250

00:23:42.580 | two years ago is now like 350 or 300.

00:23:45.220 | Yeah, I think one of the hardest parts for cards is all the transfer ratios

00:23:49.360 | for the most part are all one to one.

00:23:51.300 | And it seems so simple to keep it one to one

00:23:53.700 | that they can't really pull that lever easily so they can pull perks.

00:23:57.560 | Do you think we'll ever see cards where it's like here are four perks.

00:24:00.340 | You get to pick two of them.

00:24:01.800 | I kind of wish Citi would do that or like any other issuer.

00:24:04.440 | I think that's like an interesting play and like gamifies it a lot more.

00:24:07.080 | But I'm not sure if the normal card user that's not a super user

00:24:11.680 | would like that because it might sound too confusing.

00:24:13.920 | I think right now you probably have at least eight

00:24:16.820 | priority pass memberships and you don't need them.

00:24:20.120 | No, not at all.

00:24:21.420 | Yeah, if I could even take like a $50 credit or something per year,

00:24:25.300 | that would be nice.

00:24:26.260 | And I think or maybe a $50 credit for something else

00:24:29.660 | for like Barry's Bootcamp or something.

00:24:31.460 | So I think that would be cool.

00:24:33.840 | Yeah, but I think it just brings up a different conversation now

00:24:37.480 | because for the platinum.

00:24:39.800 | The whole draw is that, oh, I can get $1,400 in value.

00:24:44.080 | I might not, but I can.

00:24:46.020 | So there's that potential of getting outsized value

00:24:48.080 | that I think people like latch on to.

00:24:49.860 | And they love to market that. Yes.

00:24:51.880 | And I like even for my like calculations and stuff, I'm like,

00:24:54.660 | you need to knock it down for your own case.

00:24:57.060 | Like we have calculators on asksebi.com for this.

00:24:59.900 | But for I think the moment you're like, OK, cool.

00:25:03.560 | That's a 900 annual fee, but you have 800 credits, but you have to pick the ones.

00:25:07.360 | It ends up like not being the best for them,

00:25:10.400 | for the company or for people that are signing up.

00:25:13.000 | It's only good for us.

00:25:14.040 | And I'm pretty sure they're not optimizing for us.

00:25:16.140 | Do you think the car like the credit card companies

00:25:19.740 | like power users because they tell their friends and their friends aren't?

00:25:24.380 | Or do they like secretly wish that they could put a red flag

00:25:27.920 | on all of our accounts and close us all down?

00:25:29.920 | I think we represent such a small number that they probably don't care.

00:25:34.460 | I think it's kind of like reminiscent of the casinos where there's people

00:25:38.460 | that can't count cards, right?

00:25:39.860 | Like you actually want people to think that they can go in and count cards

00:25:43.540 | and like movies like that to like propagate.

00:25:45.540 | But like the average person, just even if they mentally can't do it,

00:25:48.780 | they're not going to spend the time to learn how to do it

00:25:50.940 | or they'll think about how to do the process.

00:25:53.040 | So by having this whole thing, like, oh, you can get money,

00:25:55.440 | but maybe they don't do enough research, then they end up losing.

00:25:59.220 | But the people that watch videos and like read blogs

00:26:02.560 | are probably already a lot ahead of everyone else.

00:26:04.760 | So we talked about how you have eight platinum cards, which is a little crazy.

00:26:07.820 | And I think one of the things that people often miss about the game

00:26:12.140 | is we get so caught up in, OK, well, which card is going to give me

00:26:16.800 | the most number of points for how I spend my money?

00:26:19.180 | And don't get me wrong.

00:26:20.140 | Like I am, you know, I've created a tool where people can actually go in

00:26:23.640 | and put their spend in and figure out the right optimal use of cards,

00:26:26.280 | because at the end of the day, no one wants to leave points on the table.

00:26:29.280 | However, when I think about it and I just start doing the math,

00:26:33.620 | even with the best card, if you could have a 5X points on everything card

00:26:37.420 | and your return was 5X, welcome bonuses seem to be better than that.

00:26:41.260 | Almost always.

00:26:42.940 | Is there an argument that all you should be ever chasing is welcome bonuses

00:26:46.700 | and you should not be focused on any multipliers and bonuses?

00:26:49.740 | So I think it's kind of interesting where a lot of people who spend less money

00:26:55.400 | focus more on multipliers when they should be focusing on intro bonuses,

00:26:58.980 | because that drives more money if you're spending only 500 a month.

00:27:02.440 | Getting 200 back for that 500 just makes a lot more sense.

00:27:05.600 | And you can actually repeat that so many times because there's so many cards.

00:27:08.440 | But like that 5% on 500 is not material at all.

00:27:12.200 | So ironically, the people that should be focused on multipliers

00:27:15.820 | are the high spenders, the ones that are spending five or ten thousand dollars

00:27:19.240 | a month eating out.

00:27:20.540 | And like, I think some people look at them and be like, that's absurd.

00:27:22.840 | Who does that?

00:27:23.440 | But like there are people that spend a ton of money.

00:27:25.440 | Like for those people, the multipliers start to matter a lot more

00:27:28.480 | because that's already 25,000 points in one month, potentially, depending on the card.

00:27:32.700 | So for most people, especially when you're starting out, focus on intro bonuses.

00:27:38.080 | That drives the needle.

00:27:39.080 | That's like 20% return on spend to 40%, depending on the card.

00:27:42.620 | But I think once you ramp up, once you have a business at some point,

00:27:47.260 | like you just run out of bonuses.

00:27:48.620 | Like if you're if you have an ad business that if you have a business

00:27:51.600 | that runs a lot of Facebook ads, you're spending 200k a month.

00:27:54.860 | It's like there's not enough intro bonuses for you to go for.

00:27:58.140 | So you do start to focus on multipliers or maybe getting hotel status

00:28:01.560 | or airline status with that spend.

00:28:03.820 | Yeah. But if you're someone who has dabbled, right, you've opened two or three cards

00:28:08.240 | and maybe you're spending, I don't know, five, seven grand a month.

00:28:11.920 | So you're kind of on that high end, but you haven't opened up a ton of cards.

00:28:15.080 | Even if you're a high spender, if you've only opened up a few cards in your time,

00:28:19.580 | it probably makes sense to focus on intro bonuses.

00:28:22.200 | I think so.

00:28:23.420 | I think you can argue that one a lot more because like you're in that weird mid spot.

00:28:26.800 | But for me, intro bonuses, especially travel ones, just drive so much value.

00:28:30.720 | And it's like, would you rather spend maybe three or four months

00:28:33.880 | of spending to get the same bonus or maybe one month?

00:28:37.060 | And especially if you are trying to time towards like a honeymoon

00:28:39.680 | or any other like big endeavor where you need a lot of points,

00:28:42.600 | it just makes more sense.

00:28:43.980 | So to me, I think intro bonuses are the focus,

00:28:47.560 | especially when you're young and you like have time to manage stuff.

00:28:52.100 | Anyways, like we have kids, then obviously maybe that's not worth your time.

00:28:55.860 | I don't know. I would.

00:28:57.480 | I would push back and say, even if you're going to spend the time

00:29:00.240 | to figure out what card earns the most points,

00:29:02.400 | you'd probably be better off just getting another card

00:29:04.860 | unless you've played the game so heavily that you're out of cards.

00:29:08.420 | Yeah. So again, which you probably are.

00:29:11.200 | So my view is you should probably like work your way to like 10,

00:29:15.340 | 20 or like 50 cards, but obviously like that's not everyone.

00:29:19.580 | And I want to be cognizant that like some people do have like lives.

00:29:22.340 | Like I like researching stuff like on a Friday night.

00:29:25.760 | I think we'll like watch Netflix, hang out, have dinner.

00:29:27.960 | But then like at night, I'm like just randomly researching stuff

00:29:30.640 | and going down rabbit holes.

00:29:31.840 | Sometimes it's not credit card related.

00:29:33.220 | Sometimes it's like travel.

00:29:34.060 | Sometimes it's something completely different, like mechanical keyboards.

00:29:36.820 | But like I like researching stuff.

00:29:38.940 | I enjoy learning.

00:29:40.240 | But like I know some people who are like, no, I'd rather

00:29:43.280 | be spending more time with my kids or like partying or clubbing or whatever else.

00:29:47.200 | So I think it just depends on you.

00:29:49.280 | And so you said potentially 50.

00:29:51.740 | Let's pretend someone listening is like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:29:54.200 | I was doing this game wrong.

00:29:56.580 | What is I want to address a few things.

00:29:59.500 | So one I've noticed from people that have published.

00:30:02.420 | Here's me opening up a high velocity of cards over a short period of time.

00:30:06.000 | The impact on your credit is surprisingly positive.

00:30:08.840 | So I think that's a misconception a lot of people have is, oh,

00:30:11.800 | if I opened up five, six, seven, eight cards in a year, it would destroy my credit.

00:30:15.760 | I'm pretty sure my experience from people that have reported it

00:30:19.400 | and from the few times where I did that is the exact opposite is true.

00:30:23.020 | Is that what you've seen?

00:30:24.280 | For the most part? Yes.

00:30:25.320 | I think short term, you might see a dip.

00:30:27.060 | And then especially if you're a student, you'll see a bigger dip.

00:30:30.020 | And I think that's when they get like spooked by it.

00:30:32.020 | But I think especially if you're like in the twenty five to thirty and like

00:30:35.080 | especially later on range where you already have these older cards

00:30:38.080 | anyways to like be your anchor and your foundation, the impact is so minimal.

00:30:42.740 | And unless you're like shopping for a mortgage or like something like that,

00:30:45.880 | it doesn't really matter.

00:30:47.080 | Like, oh, no, my credit score dropped from 800 to 750.

00:30:51.220 | Like that plays no role.

00:30:53.500 | And that and a 50 point drop like that would not be one card.

00:30:56.500 | That would be over a series.

00:30:58.220 | That would probably be over a series unless you had a very thin file.

00:31:01.300 | Like if you only had like one card and then this is your second card, then yeah,

00:31:05.020 | you might see a 50 point drop.

00:31:06.480 | OK, and so how would you think about that sequence if you were someone

00:31:09.640 | that's like, OK, let's get a card, a quarter this year?

00:31:12.480 | I think earlier you referenced like, you know, Capital One might be early.

00:31:16.680 | Is there a high level version of how you would think about where to start?

00:31:20.480 | Yeah, I generally think of it as stages.

00:31:22.900 | So Chase being kind of the first off set of stuff because of Chase 524

00:31:27.520 | and how they like limit cards and then also their business cards

00:31:31.320 | are pretty lucrative and you can like get a lot of them while you're under 524.

00:31:36.580 | And we've talked about this at length, but I'll just just for anyone

00:31:40.160 | who's who's new to 524 when Chase looks to approve you for a card,

00:31:44.460 | they look and if you've opened and it's not a published rule,

00:31:47.340 | but it's kind of everyone has seen it work.

00:31:49.460 | If you open more than five cards in the last 24 months across all issuers

00:31:53.920 | on your personal, on your personal report, they're going to stop you.

00:31:58.020 | So if you've opened five and you try to open a business card,

00:32:01.380 | they're going to say no.

00:32:02.680 | But if you open a business card, it doesn't show up on your personal report

00:32:06.320 | on Chase.

00:32:07.320 | And so you can you could open up five business cards

00:32:09.900 | and then open up a personal card and be OK, because the business card

00:32:13.440 | is not going to show up from Chase.

00:32:14.400 | It will from Capital One.

00:32:15.780 | Yes. And yeah, some other issuers, but most issuers don't.

00:32:19.400 | And then that's why a lot of people end up just kind of going.

00:32:21.700 | Once you're at 424, you kind of go down the ink list.

00:32:24.620 | And then especially if you have an EIN and like different options there,

00:32:29.220 | you can technically get a lot of ink bonuses from each of your businesses.

00:32:32.840 | And we have you have a whole business channel on YouTube

00:32:35.760 | that I bet people can go deep, deep down a rabbit hole.

00:32:38.600 | Ask Sebby business.

00:32:39.940 | Yeah. And so I think a lot of people would be surprised

00:32:42.640 | that they probably do something in their life

00:32:44.940 | that would qualify them for a business card,

00:32:46.820 | even if they're not running a business with employees.

00:32:49.480 | So that's definitely something to look at.

00:32:52.160 | And OK, so Chase is kind of where you start

00:32:54.320 | because of their kind of application rules is there.

00:32:56.700 | So application rules and also number of intra bonuses

00:32:59.380 | and then the value of intra bonuses.

00:33:01.120 | And then the fact that a lot of their cards have downgrade paths

00:33:03.580 | and a no annual fee options.

00:33:05.000 | And also a lot of the ones that don't are just keeper cards.

00:33:07.380 | So once where you get value every year by keeping it.

00:33:09.840 | Hotel cards being one of the best examples of this.

00:33:12.140 | After that, I would do Capital One mostly because they can be pretty hard

00:33:16.440 | to get approved for if you have very high velocity and you have a lot of cards.

00:33:20.220 | So like there are people out there who have an 800 credit score,

00:33:23.640 | who make like two, 300 K, but who will not get approved for the Venture X

00:33:27.340 | because Capital One knows that you're not profitable.

00:33:30.060 | So you generally want to like get your foot in that door early on.

00:33:33.220 | Saver, Saver One, Venture, Venture X are all pretty good cards for that.

00:33:37.940 | And they also just make sense, like they're good cards by themselves.

00:33:41.480 | If you hadn't opened a lot of Chase cards and you're sitting at zero 24 or 124,

00:33:46.400 | would you make a case to maybe start with a big bonus on a Venture X up front?

00:33:51.800 | I think that's one of the few issuers

00:33:54.140 | I would consider like burning a 524 slot for, but.

00:33:57.720 | Yeah, I would probably I'd probably still go through Chase personally,

00:34:02.060 | but depends on you. OK.

00:34:04.160 | And is it as simple as.

00:34:07.480 | You know, Chase 524, if I'm at 124, can I just go open up

00:34:11.200 | four cards in the next 90 days or you generally want to get a new card?

00:34:16.160 | I would say every one to three months and then for business cards

00:34:18.540 | every two to three months.

00:34:19.740 | So you kind of want to just like path it out based off what you're trying to do.

00:34:22.880 | iXG Premier World of Hyatt are all pretty good cards.

00:34:27.160 | Boundless is interesting, especially if you want to like in the future

00:34:30.420 | upgrade to the Ritz card, which is another rabbit hole.

00:34:33.120 | United cards are good for the bonuses and downgrade paths and perks.

00:34:36.880 | If you want free checked bags.

00:34:39.000 | Aeroplanes just a really good bonus, but doesn't have a downgrade path.

00:34:42.060 | But yeah, there's like a lot of cards you can get that just provide a lot of value.

00:34:45.140 | Yeah, I think Chase is probably if you made a list of the

00:34:47.760 | the issuer with the most six figure bonuses, it's like always chase.

00:34:52.400 | Yeah. And then if you look at bonuses across the board, it's like

00:34:55.560 | who really has a lot of bonuses, it's American Express and Chase.

00:35:00.020 | And that's why it's like you want to focus on Chase early on

00:35:03.320 | because you want to get those bonuses.

00:35:05.080 | And then a lot of the bonuses are also on like a 24 month clock, where if you

00:35:09.700 | don't currently have the card and you haven't got the bonus in 24 months,

00:35:13.240 | you would actually be eligible for that bonus again.

00:35:15.100 | So a lot of people start off chase, kind of go through everything else,

00:35:17.660 | and then you can circle back to chase.

00:35:19.400 | Yeah. One thing that I think you'll find if you get to your fourth

00:35:23.240 | or fifth chase card is you might get denied right away.

00:35:26.780 | And you can often, at least in my experience, call up.

00:35:29.540 | And the denial isn't that they don't want to give you the card.

00:35:32.080 | It's they just don't want to give you any more credit.

00:35:33.880 | And you could say, oh, well, can you move some credit over from this other card

00:35:37.000 | I have that has a twenty five thousand dollar limit?

00:35:39.460 | You just put 10 there and bring 15 over.

00:35:41.880 | Yeah. So chase generally wants to give you about 50 percent of your income

00:35:44.980 | as your total credit limit for them.

00:35:47.220 | That's kind of like what they're willing to risk.

00:35:49.220 | So if you make 100, then among all your chase cards,

00:35:52.440 | total limit should be around 50 K.

00:35:54.560 | So you can also carve room, which is what I call it,

00:35:57.200 | where you like intentionally decrease credit limits

00:35:59.820 | to just make it easier to get approved.

00:36:02.040 | So like, let's say if you have a 200 K salary, you know that your cap is 100 K.

00:36:06.580 | If you already have 100 K and you're not using all your credit limit anyways,

00:36:10.380 | it's like, why not just decrease one of these cards by five K?

00:36:13.460 | Can you do that?

00:36:14.260 | Can you just ask them for a credit decrease?

00:36:16.520 | Yes, you can.

00:36:17.380 | And then that makes it easier to get approved.

00:36:18.980 | And like, obviously, some people will be like, I'd rather call in.

00:36:21.720 | I don't owe getting credit limit decreases are as dumb.

00:36:24.220 | Why would anyone do that?

00:36:25.440 | But like as someone who doesn't like calling in and waiting on the phone

00:36:28.860 | and stuff like I'd rather just send a message saying decrease my credit limit

00:36:32.600 | by five K, that's immaterial to me.

00:36:34.660 | And like if it makes the approval process easier, then that's a win.

00:36:37.200 | Do you think there's an argument of like that actually working more often?

00:36:40.940 | Like, is there a situation where I think that's easier?

00:36:43.900 | And I think my rationale is that it's lower risk

00:36:46.540 | because I think any time you have more eyes on your account,

00:36:51.120 | it's a negative thing.

00:36:52.500 | So I don't want to have to call in and then ask them to move limits around

00:36:57.220 | and then have someone be like, why does this guy have 12 chase cards?

00:37:00.600 | Right. Like maybe that's another risk flag versus like by me

00:37:04.220 | decreasing the limit, then it's the algorithm approving me.

00:37:06.980 | And like to me, that's just lower risk.

00:37:08.860 | OK. OK. So you go chase to Amex, I'm guessing.

00:37:11.680 | No. So you do chase to Capital One.

00:37:13.940 | Capital One.

00:37:15.100 | And then I would say Citibank of America.

00:37:17.820 | Barclays are all kind of in the same zone.

00:37:19.940 | U.S. Bank, you'd probably want to kind of do after Capital One.

00:37:23.240 | But I feel like the value of their cards are not as good

00:37:25.900 | unless you're on Team Cashback, like the U.S.

00:37:27.860 | Bank Altitude Reserve Plus.

00:37:29.620 | I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:37:31.200 | So I think after Capital One, you can make the argument for U.S.

00:37:36.040 | Bank and then the only card.

00:37:38.160 | There's not that many cards unless you're in Team Cashback, basically.

00:37:40.460 | Yeah. And all the ones you mentioned, Bank of America, Barclays, U.S.

00:37:44.540 | Bank, are they all cash back?

00:37:46.880 | Bank of America would be for Alaska points, OK?

00:37:49.120 | Because that like is super valuable and they have a lot of first

00:37:52.300 | business class options with their partners.

00:37:54.220 | Yeah, we flew Alaska a lot for a few years.

00:37:56.920 | We had some status and I collected all these Alaska points

00:37:59.260 | and I never want to spend them because I feel like they're the one currency

00:38:03.480 | that's like there's just no way to get more Alaska points that I know of.

00:38:07.140 | Maybe Bonvoy transfer.

00:38:08.760 | It's not really a good transfer, though, right?

00:38:10.360 | It's pretty bad value to transfer.

00:38:12.020 | But yeah, you could.

00:38:14.440 | There is a case for Bank of America if you're on Team Cashback,

00:38:17.020 | if you want to have 100K with their brokerage or something.

00:38:20.660 | But yeah, that's let's come back to cash back. OK.

00:38:23.740 | And then and then Amex after, basically.

00:38:27.780 | Yeah. And any nuance with Amex that that I think would be helpful.

00:38:31.460 | You generally want to start with the platinum card to the like

00:38:33.880 | how they use the platinum offers to entice people to come in.

00:38:38.000 | So generally speaking, if you're not a customer of them,

00:38:41.040 | you can get the most value, generally like 125, the 150K as an intro bonus.

00:38:45.680 | And like they dangle that carrot, because when you're not a customer,

00:38:48.720 | they want to bring you in.

00:38:50.680 | But then the moment you become a customer, it becomes a lot harder

00:38:53.100 | to get that offer.

00:38:54.140 | You can still pull it up by using something like card match.

00:38:56.600 | And like we have a whole blog post on assets.

00:38:58.720 | I'd be walking through a card match.

00:39:00.140 | But I think a lot of people just don't realize that they get like

00:39:02.860 | they see the gold card and they're like, that card makes a lot of sense for me.

00:39:05.820 | And then you get that card and then you potentially lose out on 75K.

00:39:10.540 | So like 25K in MRF bonus from the platinum that you otherwise could have gotten.

00:39:15.500 | I just got an email today that 150K on platinum

00:39:18.960 | through card match is kind of a very open option.

00:39:22.140 | Like sometimes it's you're lucky if you get it.

00:39:24.000 | Right now, it seems pretty pervasive for new customers.

00:39:27.060 | So I'll find a link to card match for the 150K and I'll put it in the show notes.

00:39:30.680 | Yeah. So 150K tends to be if you're not a customer with them,

00:39:34.940 | that's generally the easiest way to get the 150K.

00:39:38.060 | If you are a customer, you still can get the 150K,

00:39:40.520 | but it's just a lot less common.

00:39:42.940 | Yeah. And sometimes you have to literally wait for the flyers to come in the mail

00:39:46.240 | like physical paper.

00:39:48.540 | And after, how do you think about the strategy of going through Amex

00:39:53.080 | membership rewards cards or MR as you've been saying or all their airline hotel cards?

00:39:58.360 | I would do the other cards first just because they have so many other rules around it.

00:40:03.500 | So there's something called the 4, 5, 6 rule.

00:40:05.740 | So for their credit cards, you can only have four or five or six of them.

00:40:08.540 | Their charge card, you can't say charge card anymore.

00:40:12.420 | Their MR cards don't have that rule.

00:40:16.300 | So you can actually kind of get as many of them as you want at any time.

00:40:20.260 | So you generally want to start with the credit cards first,

00:40:22.400 | because that just makes more sense, like to start those clocks,

00:40:25.320 | because that's going to be like your bottleneck.

00:40:27.740 | OK, and that's all the Marriott.

00:40:30.160 | Delta, Marriott, Hilton. Yeah.

00:40:32.200 | And I mean, there's other cards.

00:40:33.540 | I think there's like a Cole, not a Cole's.

00:40:35.500 | There's like a Lowe's card, but like I haven't gone that one

00:40:38.380 | because like that doesn't matter to me, but there's cards.

00:40:41.080 | Would it be there on your quest to 50?

00:40:42.660 | Is there an intro bonus?

00:40:44.580 | There is an intro bonus,

00:40:45.720 | but I don't think it matters for me because I don't shop there.

00:40:49.420 | But yeah, yeah,

00:40:51.380 | I got my total toilet at Lowe's, so, you know, there's always value there.

00:40:54.720 | And then what's after that?

00:40:56.260 | That's it, right?

00:40:56.920 | Is there you circle back to chase or you get into the business game?

00:41:00.640 | But I feel like that's it.

00:41:02.560 | We didn't talk about built at all because as great as I think built points are.

00:41:07.140 | There's no welcome bonus.

00:41:08.740 | There's like a secret welcome bonus that exists if you like technically,

00:41:12.400 | if you sign up and then oftentimes in the first five days

00:41:15.520 | to like let you earn up to 50 points.

00:41:17.700 | Yeah, you get five X points.

00:41:19.500 | And it's now it's first day announced that it's official

00:41:22.740 | and then they announced that it's random and it's not official.

00:41:25.700 | So I don't want to promise it.

00:41:27.620 | But I think if you want a card to earn three X points on on travel

00:41:32.660 | and or three X points on dining, great.

00:41:35.240 | But if you pay rent, it makes sense.

00:41:37.380 | I would still put it in the back burner after American Express, though,

00:41:40.160 | or maybe like at the same time as American Express, the rationale being that

00:41:43.500 | the intro bonus, like the multiplier sounds nice on the surface.

00:41:47.260 | But if you're someone that's a low spender,

00:41:49.440 | you're better off using that rent to help hit intra bonuses.

00:41:52.860 | So like if you're someone who doesn't spend that much on everything else,

00:41:55.680 | but you're paying New York or Bay Area or anywhere, rent

00:41:58.680 | that 500 or 1000 or 2000 and spends like you can earn one X.

00:42:04.320 | That sounds great.

00:42:05.520 | But like you're better off just literally hitting a full on intro bonus

00:42:08.780 | and paying like maybe 2% fees.

00:42:11.900 | OK, so you're arguing that because the intro bonus is so big,

00:42:15.960 | let's use a practical example.

00:42:17.240 | You get a card spend.

00:42:19.620 | Let's say you live in New York.

00:42:20.740 | Your rent is 4K.

00:42:22.780 | You could easily use that 4K to hit the CSP intra bonus of 60K points.

00:42:27.460 | Maybe put on the belts are getting 4000 points.

00:42:29.960 | So you're looking at 60000 points versus 4000 points.

00:42:32.800 | And the fact that most intro bonuses are repeatable, you're kind of better off

00:42:36.800 | like you're better off going down the intro bonus list.

00:42:39.100 | That makes sense.

00:42:39.560 | And going for an intro bonus each month, even if you have to pay $80 in fees

00:42:44.140 | on one card, you're paying 4000.

00:42:46.240 | You're getting a 60000 point bonus and spending $80 in fees.

00:42:49.240 | And on the other, you're spending 4000.

00:42:50.860 | You're getting 4000 points, but no fees.

00:42:52.560 | Yeah, because the net amount is positive.

00:42:54.740 | So like even if you use enough credits to offset the fees you're paying,

00:42:58.900 | it just makes financial sense.

00:43:00.240 | Like the math works out.

00:43:01.620 | Yeah, it's almost what do you what would you say?

00:43:03.920 | Have you done the math?

00:43:04.780 | What is a average kind of percent back in points or intro bonuses?

00:43:10.220 | I'd say for cashback equivalent, probably about 20 to 30%

00:43:13.680 | for travel stuff, 30 to like 80%, like Southwest ones.

00:43:17.860 | Like we've seen some pretty crazy offers there

00:43:20.440 | because they also have just like lower minimum spends.

00:43:22.440 | Oftentimes business tends to be about 11.1%, give or take.

00:43:28.240 | Yeah. OK, so when you say 2025, you mean it's kind of like

00:43:32.160 | if your Amex gold card earns four points per dollar on groceries

00:43:35.500 | for the amount of money you spend on the intro bonus,

00:43:38.880 | you're earning effectively 25 points per dollar.

00:43:42.340 | You could say that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:44.000 | I mean, it's it's different per card.

00:43:45.260 | And if you spend money past the intro bonus, it's not the same.

00:43:47.580 | But the argument for so for dining, I feel like that's

00:43:51.180 | it still makes sense that introduces are better, but that's still for X.

00:43:55.140 | We've built you're only looking at one X.

00:43:56.680 | So like that, that is a pretty big difference to me.

00:43:58.940 | OK, I think that makes sense.

00:44:01.400 | OK, that was a lot.

00:44:02.900 | I think people have probably been convinced at least to look into

00:44:07.400 | the intro bonus game a little bit more if they haven't.

00:44:10.020 | And what's the cap? How many cards are you at?

00:44:12.440 | North of 50.

00:44:15.480 | But yeah. And no problems.

00:44:17.480 | Like, do you feel like when you were in that home stretch

00:44:20.440 | doing the last from 40 to 50, you were still getting approvals?

00:44:23.820 | That's why American Express was towards them.

00:44:26.900 | So like, I think if you actually map out things properly,

00:44:29.700 | you can easily do that. It's not a problem in terms of managing.

00:44:32.660 | I think some people will be like, oh, that's a lot of work.

00:44:34.780 | You can automate a lot of it using either code or just like building your own stuff.

00:44:38.660 | Or even if you don't want if you want to keep it very manual,

00:44:41.120 | you can set a lot of the dates around the same time.

00:44:44.200 | So, for example, like all my chase cards close on the first of each month

00:44:48.080 | or like almost as close as I could make it to like the end of the month

00:44:52.260 | because like everything just closes there.

00:44:54.300 | And then all my Amex cards like close mid month.

00:44:57.040 | That way, you can. Why does that matter?

00:44:59.220 | Mostly just to make your life simpler.

00:45:00.640 | Like if you are trying to like, hey, like if someone's like 50 cards,

00:45:04.640 | like how do I deal with paying these off?

00:45:06.300 | And but you're not using all 50 regularly.

00:45:08.920 | Yeah, I'm not using all 50, but I'm saying I think just even like if mentally,

00:45:12.380 | if like it's weird for you to be like,

00:45:14.260 | I don't want to look at my cards every single day of a month,

00:45:17.420 | potentially for some weird fraud charge or something.

00:45:19.560 | It's just easier to like maybe set like one or two dates in a month

00:45:23.020 | as like dates that you like even look at stuff.

00:45:25.860 | But yeah, I don't you don't need to use most of the cards.

00:45:28.560 | I just link all my cards to I use Copilot, but you can use any other tool,

00:45:32.980 | link all your cards, you'll see all the transactions come up.

00:45:35.520 | So, you know, I don't I don't think I've reviewed my transactions

00:45:39.880 | on the card issuer sites for a while.

00:45:42.420 | Yeah. So I think that also works if you have like an aggregator.

00:45:44.800 | But yeah, for the most part, you don't really.

00:45:46.720 | I think it's a lot less stressful than you think it is.

00:45:49.300 | I think if you're coming from zero cards or like three cards to 50,

00:45:52.480 | that sounds very intense.

00:45:53.760 | But if you're someone who's already at like eight to 10,

00:45:55.800 | it's you're used to it.

00:45:57.600 | Like at this point, it's like going to the gym, like, oh, cool. Yeah.

00:46:00.480 | And so 50 cards, that's easily.

00:46:03.860 | I've got to assume at least 75,000 points per bonus, give or take.

00:46:07.960 | Yeah. And I think to be fair, a lot of the bonuses were easier

00:46:11.120 | to get back in the day as well.

00:46:12.460 | Like Bank of America was substantially more lax with their bonuses

00:46:16.840 | and like how many cards you could get. Yeah.

00:46:19.720 | OK. Any any other things to keep in mind,

00:46:23.640 | especially on Amex, when it comes to how many times you can get a bonus?

00:46:26.820 | So it's technically once in a lifetime.

00:46:29.220 | I think there are some like a form

00:46:32.360 | inkling saying that maybe it's like once every 10 years.

00:46:35.020 | But like, I just don't want to rely on an exception.

00:46:37.780 | Yeah, for most people, I would lean towards American Express

00:46:42.480 | towards the end, unless, you know, that you don't want to get that many cards

00:46:46.460 | because not everyone does or you're just a very high spender.

00:46:49.740 | Like if you are somewhat if you're a food reviewer in New York

00:46:53.080 | and you spend like 10K a month, then yeah, the gold card probably works out for you.

00:46:57.160 | Yeah. And and so we said we would talk about cash back briefly.

00:47:01.420 | If someone's thinking, this is great, I want to earn a lot of value.

00:47:05.100 | I want to open cards.

00:47:06.600 | But when it comes to using my points, I just find that I don't get the value I want.

00:47:10.540 | And if you're ending up using your points to just book in the travel portal

00:47:15.300 | on Amex or Citi, is it even worth playing the points game

00:47:19.840 | or is it worth considering cash back cards?

00:47:22.180 | I think you still can go for intro bonuses because that's still

00:47:25.420 | it's the same math that drives the needle the most set up wise.

00:47:29.480 | You might be looking at different cards.

00:47:31.020 | So I think Chase still kind of works pretty well for cash back.

00:47:33.600 | Bank of America is another consideration now because they have like

00:47:37.600 | these really good cards that you like earn up to five point

00:47:40.600 | two five percent on a lot of transactions and like two point two six.

00:47:44.780 | I think on like six to five.

00:47:46.400 | Yeah. Two point six to five on everything else. Yeah.

00:47:48.900 | So I think there is a play for that,

00:47:51.280 | especially if you just want something super simple.

00:47:53.620 | And I think a lot of people get pissed off because they're like, wait,

00:47:57.780 | I only get zero point six cents in value for my points.

00:48:01.080 | And that's not very good.

00:48:02.680 | You can get the Schwab card in order to get like one point one cents.

00:48:06.000 | So that's a bit better.

00:48:07.300 | But the Schwab Platinum.

00:48:09.520 | But then at the same time, you're like, well, if you don't.

00:48:12.640 | If you're someone that's focused on cash back, you tend not to travel,

00:48:16.180 | in which case the Platinum card becomes a lot harder to like recommend and use.

00:48:21.100 | So it's that weird dilemma where you're like,

00:48:23.320 | technically, a Platinum card might make financial sense because I spend so much

00:48:26.020 | and that increases my earn rate, but I don't travel.

00:48:29.660 | So this card is not useful other than for that earn rate bonus.

00:48:32.620 | Yeah, I think if you want to earn points and you want to use them

00:48:35.840 | without having to go to the hassle of transferring,

00:48:37.680 | Chase is probably going to be best.

00:48:39.580 | Cap one city.

00:48:41.300 | Cap one, I think it's really tough because you only get zero point

00:48:44.720 | five cents per point unless you use like the saver.

00:48:46.920 | But the Venture X kind of becomes like out of the equation.

00:48:49.340 | OK, even if you're bringing in their portal.

00:48:51.840 | If you book through their portal, then you.

00:48:53.220 | Oh, yeah.

00:48:53.680 | If you're doing some form of travel, then you actually have one side, sorry.

00:48:56.140 | But if you're like purely, purely cashback, then I would say capital one.

00:48:59.600 | Other than the saver, a safer one would not be on my list.

00:49:02.220 | City's also not bad.

00:49:04.280 | Portal's still only one cent, but you can also cash out at one cent per point,

00:49:08.480 | which is pretty nice.

00:49:10.060 | OK, and then for people, we talked about rent, right?

00:49:12.600 | One way that you could hit these intro bonuses because some of them,

00:49:16.020 | you know, spend a few thousand dollars if you don't have that spend

00:49:18.560 | or if you want to do it, do a lot of them, even run some in tandem.

00:49:22.080 | You know, you could just pay fees.

00:49:25.120 | Are there other ways you've seen people get successful?

00:49:27.960 | Are there other good ways to.

00:49:31.000 | Kind of increase your spend to hit these bonuses

00:49:33.540 | without necessarily adding to your expenses for the year?

00:49:37.120 | Yeah, I think you can speak to this pretty well.

00:49:39.660 | If you're the group trip planner, that works out very well,

00:49:43.120 | especially if you have like more wealthy friends for like a bachelor party

00:49:47.140 | or something.

00:49:47.920 | If everyone's paying you a ton of money and then you're booking up hotels,

00:49:50.600 | meals are obviously another one.

00:49:53.260 | I think a lot of people also end up starting businesses

00:49:55.600 | as a means of earning more points and then eventually, ironically,

00:49:59.400 | that ends up becoming like a profit center and say, oh, I can make a lot of money

00:50:03.020 | here.

00:50:03.520 | So I've seen people like flip things or like more do more like drop shipping

00:50:06.740 | style stuff where you can get a lot of points and also get money.

00:50:10.240 | Like I run into people who are like, yeah, I run 100K in ads.

00:50:13.080 | I like make a crap ton of money.

00:50:15.740 | But it's like I started this because I was trying to figure out

00:50:18.380 | how to get more points.

00:50:19.500 | Yeah, I met someone recently who I think he said makes

00:50:24.000 | spent $4 million a month for his business on.

00:50:27.200 | I can't remember which Amex it was.

00:50:29.620 | I would be so sad if it was like a platinum card

00:50:31.920 | because he could just be earning twice as much.

00:50:33.960 | But at that point, I'm like, if you're earning four million, four million.

00:50:37.300 | Yeah, I was going to say I was going to guess the business gold for ads,

00:50:40.100 | but then it's all formulas a lot. That's a lot.

00:50:42.140 | Yeah, I guess Amex might be the only card that would give you a limit to do that.

00:50:45.220 | Capital One Venture X business is also like a charge card where it's uncapped.

00:50:49.680 | OK, yeah.

00:50:51.100 | And two weeks back and everything.

00:50:52.300 | I know that's what that's what this person should have.

00:50:54.400 | That's why I think it's like the best new card right now

00:50:57.560 | or like the best business card, arguably the same with the Sparkash Plus.

00:51:00.660 | Yeah, Sparkash Plus had the best intro bonus.

00:51:04.080 | When I got it, it was 250,000.

00:51:06.400 | But it's just the fact that it's uncapped because like Amex,

00:51:09.160 | unless you're doing like five K plus purchases,

00:51:11.540 | then you get one point five X on the platinum business.

00:51:14.740 | But like everything else is like capped off, like the blue business.

00:51:17.460 | Plus, that's only 50 K.

00:51:18.920 | Like you're going to burn through that.

00:51:20.460 | Yeah, if you're a high spender, Amex doesn't have a great everything card.

00:51:23.720 | OK, so we talked a lot about earning points.

00:51:26.380 | We talked a lot about what's coming.

00:51:28.140 | Let's talk a little bit about how do we how we use them.

00:51:30.060 | We I think the two of us have gotten a chance to do a lot of exciting

00:51:34.320 | international, maybe some domestic kind of these aspirational trips.

00:51:38.440 | If people are sitting on points and thinking,

00:51:41.540 | what are some amazing ways to use them, what are some of your favorites

00:51:44.620 | and your highlights, whether it's airline cabins, destinations

00:51:48.460 | or specific properties?

00:51:50.620 | I think if you have a player to you should probably ask them where they want to go.

00:51:53.800 | That's a good starting point,

00:51:55.040 | because for a lot of people, that's how they actually convert

00:51:57.720 | their partner to get into credit cards, because they're like,

00:52:00.840 | why are you focused on these points?

00:52:02.140 | This sounds dumb.

00:52:03.140 | But when you take them to the place they want to go, they're like,

00:52:04.840 | oh, this is really nice.

00:52:06.760 | Wow. Why were we flying economy before when we can fly business?

00:52:10.520 | I think in terms of I lean more towards hotel still in terms of value,

00:52:15.200 | because I think you get so much more time there.

00:52:17.160 | And also you can have two people.

00:52:19.120 | Flights are fun, but they feel so much more finite.

00:52:22.040 | I think Bora Bora Maldives are obviously the go to ones.

00:52:25.880 | And I think some people argue it's a bit overrated as someone

00:52:28.960 | that likes to snorkel and like enjoy the water.

00:52:31.720 | I really like it.

00:52:33.340 | And I think the fact that I can check it off the bucket list is fun as well.

00:52:35.760 | Yeah. No Seychelles yet.

00:52:37.880 | That's on the list for 2024.

00:52:40.020 | OK, yeah. Yeah.

00:52:41.060 | There's the new the new Waldorf.

00:52:42.760 | Oh, we did two Hilton's there.

00:52:44.940 | I don't know if they're both still there.

00:52:47.360 | Yeah, I think we were looking to that initially.

00:52:49.100 | And then when we heard that the water was opening 2024, I was like,

00:52:51.860 | oh, OK, let's just do that instead.

00:52:53.280 | Yeah. Some of those aspirational stays have been great.

00:52:55.360 | But even domestically, I feel like you've been done Ventana,

00:52:59.000 | which is one of the best values of high points out there,

00:53:03.240 | despite being a lot of high points.

00:53:05.240 | Yeah, I think that one's an interesting one.

00:53:07.000 | It's not for everyone like I've heard.

00:53:08.920 | You either love it or you hate it.

00:53:10.500 | So I like it because it's a means for me to like reconnect with environment

00:53:14.540 | and kind of like get away from everything as someone who's like

00:53:17.720 | constantly connected to like technology.

00:53:19.960 | So as someone like I grew up like camping and doing a lot of that stuff.

00:53:23.840 | So it was the closest I could get to that while still keeping Mandy happy

00:53:28.100 | because Mandy just does not like outdoors stuff for whatever reason.

00:53:31.900 | She's also sitting there right now.

00:53:34.440 | So, yeah, I think that was like the closest she got to glamping,

00:53:36.820 | which is kind of funny and also sad.

00:53:39.660 | Yeah, I I've been there for a wedding and we were too cheap

00:53:43.360 | to book a room at the wedding rate and there was nothing with points.

00:53:46.120 | So we booked over like a room at a hotel down the street.

00:53:48.620 | And I have not been back yet.

00:53:51.240 | Yeah, I think it's nice.

00:53:53.160 | It's probably worth at least like one weekend.

00:53:55.160 | It's just a nice little escape.

00:53:56.580 | That's nearby. Yeah.

00:53:58.040 | So we hit the most obvious spots.

00:53:59.620 | Are there a few properties that aren't quite as wild as,

00:54:04.960 | you know, these honeymoon destinations

00:54:06.800 | that you think are interesting spots to check out around the world

00:54:10.180 | or even domestically?

00:54:11.260 | So not really a points one, but you can use points to like it.

00:54:14.180 | They're booking through portals.

00:54:15.720 | Faroe Islands is like still our favorite vacation

00:54:18.480 | that like we pretty much paid out of pocket for.

00:54:20.760 | So it's like this little islands that is owned by Denmark, I believe.

00:54:24.820 | That's like between like London,

00:54:27.320 | Iceland and like.

00:54:31.820 | Yeah, like basically up there.

00:54:33.700 | It's like a tiny islands.

00:54:34.820 | They have these puffins there. It's beautiful.

00:54:36.620 | That's kind of what you imagine Iceland to be, but like even nicer

00:54:39.740 | in a lot of ways, just super picturesque. Awesome.

00:54:42.160 | OK, then last, what have been your top airline cabin experiences?

00:54:47.580 | If someone's like I'm saving some points up

00:54:49.740 | and I just want to have a wild experience in the sky,

00:54:52.420 | where do you think your points can take you right now?

00:54:56.760 | Because I know a lot of the past, like getting Emirates first

00:54:59.880 | used to be a little bit more accessible.

00:55:01.500 | Fees can get pretty high.

00:55:03.100 | What do you think is the best bang?

00:55:04.600 | The best bang for buck would probably be A&A,

00:55:07.340 | given just the ways you can book it and like the value of the cabin

00:55:11.180 | and also the fact that it's like one of the best first and also business class.

00:55:13.940 | If anything, it's the best business class cabin right now.

00:55:16.320 | So I think that's like where the value is.

00:55:18.320 | I think in terms of like crazy experience,

00:55:22.280 | I mean, Etihad first apartments is still nice.

00:55:25.240 | I don't like their soft product.

00:55:27.120 | They were kind of mean, but it's fine.

00:55:29.500 | But the hard product is nice.

00:55:31.460 | It's like very big.

00:55:32.120 | And where can you get what's the way to get Etihad?

00:55:35.000 | Etihad, you could book through American.

00:55:38.160 | Americans, probably the best way.

00:55:40.120 | OK, or you can book through, I think, their points,

00:55:42.680 | but it might not be that advantageous.

00:55:44.680 | They used to have a lot of more routes.

00:55:46.340 | But then since the shutdowns and stuff, the routes only recently opened back up.

00:55:50.640 | So I think London to Abu Dhabi or is it France?

00:55:54.020 | The Abu Dhabi is the main one right now that has the new cabin. OK.

00:55:57.640 | And so American points pretty hard to get.

00:56:01.660 | Is it just is your stash of American points, just American cards,

00:56:05.580 | or how did you build up an American balance enough to do it?

00:56:07.800 | It's mostly American cards and like we don't have that many anymore.

00:56:11.500 | So sometimes we actually even like buy it if the math makes sense.

00:56:14.880 | So they'll have like promotions where they'll be like,

00:56:17.940 | we'll give you an extra 40% points.

00:56:19.760 | So for us, I'm like, OK, cool.

00:56:21.060 | So that means I can book first class for about like twenty two hundred dollars.

00:56:25.740 | I'm like, that still makes sense.

00:56:27.400 | So like, I think there is a stage where if you're comfortable,

00:56:29.700 | especially for like reviewing stuff, there is a case of buying points

00:56:33.120 | because like at a certain point you do run out of points.

00:56:35.460 | Yeah, I actually I watched someone do the math on Wyndham points.

00:56:39.660 | And so Wyndham points using the book of a Casa, you can get some good deals.

00:56:43.960 | But at times, and I think recently there was one of those times

00:56:47.180 | where you could book Wyndham points for less than a penny a point.

00:56:49.600 | And so to transfer your points to Wyndham was actually a worse deal

00:56:53.760 | than to redeem them for statement credits and just buy the Wyndham points.

00:56:57.280 | Yeah. Same thing with IG, where like their points are terrible value wise.

00:57:01.360 | And like there's almost no use case.

00:57:02.700 | We're getting at least one time per point.

00:57:04.280 | So you're better off either just booking through the portal

00:57:06.000 | or just like cashing it out.

00:57:08.080 | But that's also why I'm kind of like wanting to switch from Delta,

00:57:11.380 | because I have a lot of business spent anyways.

00:57:14.040 | And I'm going towards status.

00:57:15.840 | I'm like, do I like for my end result, do I want to have,

00:57:19.420 | let's say, 200000 Delta miles or do I want 200000 American?

00:57:23.840 | And American has so much more value while I'm sitting on like one point two.

00:57:27.200 | I'm sitting on an astronomical amount of Delta miles

00:57:29.540 | because I haven't had a good use case.

00:57:31.340 | Like I've been waiting for Delta flash sales to come back and they just did.

00:57:34.040 | But like other than that, like I don't want to spend 400K

00:57:37.040 | for a business class one way flight.

00:57:39.000 | So if someone's listening and they have half a million Delta points,

00:57:42.140 | how do you use Delta points to get good value?

00:57:44.340 | It's either Delta flash sales or kind of treating them like cash

00:57:48.520 | and like Southwest miles where you like get fixed value.

00:57:51.940 | And if you're fine with that, that's great.

00:57:53.280 | Like for cashback focused or like economy travel, it's not bad.

00:57:57.280 | But like if you're looking for outsized value, it's tough.

00:57:59.740 | Is there ever a way that you'd find?

00:58:02.200 | I remember we took our honeymoon to the Seychelles

00:58:04.040 | and it was 120000 Delta points on Air France partner awards on Delta.

00:58:08.540 | Are there deals ever to be had?

00:58:10.540 | So there used to be a lot more and it was a lot easier back in the day

00:58:13.760 | of partner awards, and it's not really the case anymore.

00:58:16.260 | So Delta flash sales is like the main thing

00:58:19.720 | that they discontinued for like three years during the shutdowns.

00:58:23.220 | And it just brought back in August.

00:58:25.140 | That's generally when they have either Delta or partner flights

00:58:29.060 | that just have a lot of availability that like people aren't flying.

00:58:33.020 | So they end up having a sale for it.

00:58:34.980 | And it's better value. Yeah.

00:58:37.320 | I've been getting a lot of value from Delta points on just short domestic flights.

00:58:41.240 | But it's it's like fixed value.

00:58:43.040 | Like for that, you're getting like one point three to one point five.

00:58:45.500 | Like you're not getting crazy value.

00:58:47.080 | You close to two cent values on Delta

00:58:51.760 | to Mexico booking on Delta through Aeromexico.

00:58:56.180 | And it was actually like a two, two and a half cent value, even in business.

00:59:01.480 | So there is also another trick that I think I haven't talked a lot about

00:59:05.680 | because I wasn't sure if it was a good idea.

00:59:07.360 | But if you actually don't fly from the U.S., if you leave from Mexico,

00:59:11.060 | you can still get good value from business class on Delta, on Delta

00:59:15.360 | and through partners.

00:59:17.780 | So like if you flew to like Mexico City to fly some other airline,

00:59:21.860 | it's like Korea or something, then it's not going to cost you 400,000.

00:59:25.600 | It's about only cost you like 100,000 points.

00:59:27.740 | OK, so if you live in Texas, it might be a good deal.

00:59:31.580 | Get to Mexico City and go.

00:59:33.540 | If you live on the West Coast and have kids, it might sound like them.

00:59:36.460 | Yeah, I don't think I would do that if you had kids.

00:59:38.880 | Yeah, it's not on the table.

00:59:41.260 | Awesome.

00:59:41.920 | Any any other cool deals, hacks like that,

00:59:45.720 | you know, in the miles world that you want to share before we take off?

00:59:49.260 | Um, nothing I can think of too much right now.

00:59:52.740 | Yeah, I think for the most part, that's it.

00:59:54.460 | This is so awesome.

00:59:55.540 | If you want any links to any of the cards we talked about,

00:59:57.880 | you can go to all the hacks dot com slash cards, except a few.

01:00:00.580 | Sebastian, let people know where to find those and everything else you're working

01:00:03.880 | on for city cards or for other cards where you want to run the numbers

01:00:08.060 | and play off the calculator.

01:00:09.020 | We have that on AskSebi.com.

01:00:11.220 | You can find me on YouTube and AskSebi and then AskSebi Business.

01:00:14.600 | Yep. We'll link to everything in the show notes.

01:00:16.780 | Sebastian, thank you so much for being here.

Current State of Credit Cards Points and Predictions for 2024 with Sebastian Fung

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