How to Avoid Plastic, BPA & Chemicals | Dr. Shanna Swan & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.000 | - What are the top three to five sources

00:00:05.000 | of endocrine disruptors that we have agency over?

00:00:11.260 | And let's forget about pregnancy for the moment

00:00:14.080 | since we're all out of the womb if we're listening to this.

00:00:17.560 | Some people will be pregnant as they listen to it,

00:00:19.920 | but would you say it's, you know,

00:00:23.400 | drinking out of plastic bottles?

00:00:25.240 | Is it laundry detergent?

00:00:27.760 | Is it, you know, rubber tires that are cascading down on us

00:00:31.720 | through the air and we're inhaling them?

00:00:33.400 | I mean, presumably all of the above,

00:00:34.960 | but which ones that we have agency over

00:00:37.840 | do you think are the most, let's just say,

00:00:40.320 | concerning where people could make better choices?

00:00:43.680 | - I would say foodborne exposures.

00:00:49.160 | Exposures in the food, in the food packaging,

00:00:52.560 | in the food storage, in the cooking utensils.

00:00:58.040 | We can go through the various things,

00:01:01.480 | but we're doing that all the time.

00:01:06.480 | We're eating all the time, we're getting food into us,

00:01:10.560 | and these are bringing in a very, you know,

00:01:14.920 | in a way that we have some control over,

00:01:16.480 | some agency over, you know, we can make changes in our foods.

00:01:20.680 | Very close to that is drink, you know, food and beverage.

00:01:26.240 | Don't use any product with fragrance, for example.

00:01:30.160 | That's a major source of exposure to phthalates.

00:01:32.960 | - Any product.

00:01:33.800 | - Any fragrance product.

00:01:35.160 | If fragrance is added-

00:01:36.000 | - So no perfume, no lotions, soap with fragrance,

00:01:40.320 | even essential oil fragrances like lavender.

00:01:41.920 | - Essential oil is a tricky-

00:01:43.640 | - Right, it's a mix.

00:01:44.640 | - It's a mix, yeah.

00:01:45.560 | So I'm gonna, that's guarded, but anything, you know-

00:01:50.560 | - Spray deodorants, roll-on deodorants.

00:01:52.760 | - Laundry detergent with-

00:01:53.760 | - Shampoo?

00:01:54.600 | - Yep, in shampoo.

00:01:55.440 | In any, if you can smell it,

00:01:57.400 | it's probably affecting your hormones.

00:01:59.300 | - I'm so happy about this answer.

00:02:01.440 | Not because I have any stake in any company

00:02:03.360 | related to fragrance-free stuff,

00:02:04.760 | but I have a very strong sense of smell,

00:02:07.120 | and I either love or hate smells,

00:02:09.660 | and I hate synthetic smells.

00:02:12.320 | Like going through the duty-free,

00:02:13.840 | especially in a European airport with all the perfumes,

00:02:16.560 | and I'm just, "Oh, I'm gonna hold my breath."

00:02:18.720 | It feels like I'm breathing poison.

00:02:21.480 | - I know.

00:02:24.000 | - Well-

00:02:24.840 | - Well, you are, actually.

00:02:25.760 | - Yeah.

00:02:26.600 | - Yeah.

00:02:27.420 | - Yeah.

00:02:28.260 | - In some sense.

00:02:29.100 | - And most soaps, right.

00:02:29.920 | - Yeah.

00:02:30.760 | - Super interesting.

00:02:31.600 | So that's your primary intervention,

00:02:32.960 | is to tell them to get rid of anything with fragrances.

00:02:35.000 | - No, that's only one thing we get rid of.

00:02:37.120 | So then we talk about how the plastics

00:02:40.120 | that they use to store their food,

00:02:41.640 | food storage containers,

00:02:43.420 | try to get them to get rid of those

00:02:44.840 | if they're made of plastic.

00:02:46.240 | We try to get them to get rid of their nonstick pans

00:02:50.520 | because of the PFAS chemicals that are in those,

00:02:52.880 | and so on and so forth.

00:02:54.280 | So we go through all steps of their life

00:02:56.480 | and try to tell them how to make changes

00:02:59.480 | that will reduce their exposure.

00:03:02.180 | - If somebody listening were having trouble conceiving

00:03:05.920 | for 12 months or more,

00:03:09.480 | are the sorts of replacement interventions,

00:03:13.680 | product interventions that you're talking about here,

00:03:16.120 | things that you would at least feel comfortable saying

00:03:20.160 | might be a good place to start or to explore?

00:03:22.800 | - Absolutely, absolutely.

00:03:24.080 | There's no harm.

00:03:25.120 | None of the changes are putting people at risk

00:03:28.880 | or doing anything that could be harmful to them.

00:03:30.960 | I'm sure of that.

00:03:32.040 | We're very careful.

00:03:33.260 | - And some are going to be cost-saving.

00:03:35.900 | - Yes.

00:03:36.740 | - And I think that's where like drinking

00:03:38.480 | out of plastic bottles far less, if at all.

00:03:41.520 | Just for reasons related to wanting to reduce waste,

00:03:45.720 | I use a Mason jar or I use these or ceramic.

00:03:48.980 | Although you'll probably tell me that the lining

00:03:50.760 | on the ceramic mug might have endocrine disruptors.

00:03:53.400 | No, I don't.

00:03:54.240 | Okay, great.

00:03:55.080 | Okay, well then I'll keep drinking.

00:03:57.360 | But it's very reassuring to me that there are things

00:04:00.980 | that we can do in terms of cost-saving elimination

00:04:03.160 | or replacement of consumables.

00:04:05.160 | - Buying in bulk.

00:04:06.000 | - That can improve endocrine status,

00:04:07.640 | maybe fertility also.

00:04:08.480 | - If you can buy in bulk, bring a container to the store

00:04:12.000 | and fill it up, a glass jar,

00:04:13.680 | instead of buying something in plastic,

00:04:15.920 | you're winning on both ends

00:04:17.340 | because those bulk products are cheaper.

00:04:19.360 | One of the things I did with the couples

00:04:22.260 | was go shop with them.

00:04:23.580 | And we went around and we looked at various products.

00:04:25.940 | And for example, we looked at the produce

00:04:28.180 | and there was the option to buy freestanding

00:04:32.700 | bunches of lettuce, heads of lettuce,

00:04:34.340 | or wrapped up in plastic bunches of lettuce.

00:04:37.580 | And I said, let's compare the price.

00:04:39.460 | I actually didn't know until we did it.

00:04:41.800 | But that freestanding unwrapped lettuce was cheaper.

00:04:45.660 | And I think that's, you know, because that makes sense

00:04:48.520 | 'cause there's a work involved in wrapping it up

00:04:51.080 | and in the container and so on.

00:04:53.040 | And so not only are you getting something that's more toxic,

00:04:56.960 | but it's more expensive.

00:04:59.080 | - When it comes to reducing BPA exposure

00:05:01.480 | and some of these forever chemicals that you mentioned,

00:05:04.480 | seems like reducing fluid intake from plastic vessels

00:05:10.280 | is gonna be number one.

00:05:12.720 | The primary source of BPA is in the lining of cans.

00:05:15.860 | So any drink or soup or anything that comes in a can

00:05:20.860 | is going to be--

00:05:23.580 | - Any can, all cans. - Any can.

00:05:27.060 | Unless it's a high end, you know, elite company

00:05:32.060 | that's made the change from BPA to an alternative lining.

00:05:35.940 | And they'll say that.

00:05:37.300 | So, and by the way, BPA has some bad relatives

00:05:43.200 | such as BPS and BPF.

00:05:45.240 | And maybe you'd be interested in this story.

00:05:47.600 | So when it came out that BPA was estrogenic,

00:05:51.040 | which is what it is.

00:05:52.080 | And by the way, it's kind of the evil twin of phthalates

00:05:57.520 | because phthalates are androgenic and BPA is estrogenic

00:06:01.480 | and phthalates make plastic soft and BPA makes plastic hard.

00:06:05.320 | You don't want either.

00:06:07.520 | Okay, so when this came out that this was a bad thing,

00:06:12.000 | the manufacturers started selling things that say BPA free.

00:06:16.480 | I'm sure you've seen that.

00:06:18.560 | The trick is that instead of BPA, they use BPS.

00:06:22.360 | - Sneaky rats. - And BPF.

00:06:24.920 | And these are chemicals, these are lookalikes,

00:06:27.400 | they're analogs and they're just as harmful.

00:06:29.760 | - Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky.

00:06:32.480 | I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it's just so dirty.

00:06:35.600 | It's so dirty.

00:06:36.600 | It's like, you know, right now is a really important time

00:06:40.680 | to be having this discussion

00:06:41.960 | because there's been a lot of movement on Capitol Hill

00:06:44.680 | and there's been a lot of movement on social media

00:06:46.560 | about trying to call attention to metabolic syndromes

00:06:49.640 | and highly processed foods and issues like this.

00:06:52.300 | And it's become unfortunately politicized.

00:06:54.480 | I mean, I hear this stuff and I just think to myself,

00:06:58.440 | the only good faith that we can really trust

00:07:01.900 | is our own desire to be healthier

00:07:06.160 | and to have our families and friends be healthier

00:07:09.420 | and to try and consume and not consume things

00:07:11.500 | on the basis of that.

00:07:12.780 | My belief is that we can't trust any larger agency

00:07:17.780 | to either protect or harm us.

00:07:20.180 | It's like, they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

00:07:23.020 | We just have to be informed.

00:07:24.480 | As opposed to trying to dismantle the systems

00:07:27.460 | that led to this,

00:07:28.300 | which just seems like infinitely complicated.

00:07:30.400 | Maybe you can do that, but I'm far less optimistic.

00:07:33.840 | And now that I'm 49 years old,

00:07:35.180 | I can say things like, now that I'm 49, I feel like...

00:07:38.580 | - But what you're saying is really important.

00:07:40.500 | If I look at a can, it says BPA-free.

00:07:42.820 | Doesn't mean anything.

00:07:43.660 | It could have BPSs or other endocrine disruptors.

00:07:47.540 | - Right.

00:07:48.380 | - So drinking out of glass vessels,

00:07:51.440 | drinking out of ceramic vessels.

00:07:53.600 | - Metal.

00:07:55.280 | - Metal, but not cans, not metal cans, not aluminum cans.

00:07:58.900 | - Right, not cans, no.

00:08:00.120 | - Goodness, okay.

00:08:01.380 | - You know, you can get a metal water bottle.

00:08:04.420 | It's not lined with BPA.

00:08:06.180 | - Steel. - Steel, yeah.

00:08:07.460 | - Steel.

00:08:08.300 | - And is it true that microwave safe means,

00:08:12.060 | it just means that the plastic won't melt in the microwave,

00:08:14.820 | but it's-

00:08:15.660 | - You never, never put plastic in a microwave.

00:08:19.800 | So here's the story.

00:08:22.080 | The BPA, phthalates, plasticizers are added to the plastic,

00:08:27.080 | but they're not chemically bound to it, okay?

00:08:33.020 | So if you put anything in a container

00:08:36.720 | that has these chemicals in it,

00:08:39.520 | they will, and then put it in a hot environment,

00:08:43.680 | they will come out of the plastic and go into the food.

00:08:47.240 | So if you, in a microwave,

00:08:50.160 | or you put your bottle in the car and the sun comes in,

00:08:53.920 | it warms up the bottle,

00:08:55.020 | and then the stuff goes into your water.

00:08:57.960 | You don't want to mix these chemicals and your food,

00:09:01.000 | but if you do,

00:09:02.240 | the worst thing is to do it in a heated environment.

00:09:04.840 | - I think about all the food that was consumed in college

00:09:07.760 | in the '90s and 2000s,

00:09:09.680 | like the cup of noodles with the styrofoam,

00:09:13.140 | the, you know, things in packaging,

00:09:16.980 | stuff like that is pretty straightforward to eliminate

00:09:19.320 | once one understands and decides.

00:09:22.120 | Then we start getting into the more nuanced thing of like,

00:09:25.520 | okay, you can buy a really nice tasting anyway,

00:09:28.880 | grass-fed, grass-finished steak, but it's wrapped in plastic.

00:09:33.520 | Well, or you can go to the butcher,

00:09:35.760 | but most people don't have time to go to the butcher.

00:09:38.360 | Or you can get strawberries at the farmer's market,

00:09:41.000 | blueberries at the farmer's market,

00:09:42.200 | which is what I try to do.

00:09:43.880 | But sometimes I buy strawberries at the market

00:09:45.920 | and they have those plastic flip-top things.

00:09:47.680 | And of course I recycle the plastic.

00:09:49.240 | How bad is it if, you know,

00:09:51.320 | you rinse the strawberries off with good clean water

00:09:55.640 | that were in the plastic container?

00:09:57.960 | - We have to do that experiment, I don't know.

00:09:59.920 | - Yeah.

00:10:00.760 | - So I guess, so it sounds to me like

00:10:03.680 | not drinking out of cans, not drinking out of plastic bottles

00:10:06.600 | it's going to be not microwaving plastic ever.

00:10:09.680 | And in general, just avoiding, avoiding plastic intake.

00:10:13.280 | - If you can afford it, buy organic.

00:10:15.960 | So you're going to avoid the pesticides

00:10:18.320 | and then phthalates are actually added to pesticides.

00:10:22.000 | And they're added because they increase absorption.

00:10:24.920 | So, you know, the, you want your pesticides

00:10:27.320 | to get into the plant, right?

00:10:29.040 | And to kill the bad stuff and insects.

00:10:32.680 | And so the same property of phthalates

00:10:37.680 | that makes them good for pesticides

00:10:40.720 | also makes them good for our hand cream.

00:10:43.080 | Just mentioning, absorption, absorption.

00:10:45.240 | Anything that's absorbed in the body

00:10:47.560 | is going to have phthalates in it.

00:10:49.560 | And it also holds scent and color.

00:10:53.160 | So it's added to those scents

00:10:55.080 | and it's also added to your lipstick

00:10:56.800 | and to your colored, you know,

00:10:59.360 | whatever you put on your face and so on.

00:11:01.440 | Anything that holds scent and color,

00:11:03.240 | that's going to be phthalates.

00:11:04.800 | - I've been accused online of being a sunscreen truther.

00:11:10.960 | I'm not a sunscreen truther.

00:11:12.640 | I'm going to keep repeating this as many times as I can.

00:11:14.560 | I understand that UV damage to the skin

00:11:19.560 | can cause certain cancers.

00:11:21.280 | I get that.

00:11:22.160 | I agree with that.

00:11:25.680 | The data are pretty clear to me

00:11:27.600 | based on having researched this pretty extensively

00:11:29.680 | and talked to many, many people,

00:11:30.760 | including dermal oncologists,

00:11:32.040 | that mineral-based sunscreens like zinc oxide

00:11:34.960 | and titanium dioxide,

00:11:36.440 | but certainly zinc oxide

00:11:37.720 | are safer than the chemical sunscreens.

00:11:40.560 | A lot of people get upset when I say that.

00:11:42.240 | And they say, well, in Europe,

00:11:43.200 | there's tons of evidence

00:11:44.080 | that the chemicals-based sunscreens are safe.

00:11:45.880 | Okay, fine.

00:11:46.720 | You use them.

00:11:47.540 | I'm not going to.

00:11:48.620 | The point being that UV damage is bad.

00:11:53.140 | There are ways to protect ourselves from the sun,

00:11:57.180 | including physical barriers like clothing, hats, et cetera.

00:12:01.460 | But pretty much all sunscreen that I'm aware of

00:12:06.800 | is designed to be absorbed.

00:12:08.420 | So what do we do if we want to get some UV protection

00:12:11.200 | from whatever kind of sunscreen we deem safe for ourselves,

00:12:14.720 | but we want to avoid these exposures to these other things?

00:12:17.420 | What do we do?

00:12:18.580 | Do we have to hunt really carefully

00:12:19.980 | for the right sunscreen?

00:12:22.380 | - Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

00:12:25.420 | Are you familiar with Environmental Working Group?

00:12:28.560 | - Is another one out of the Bay Area?

00:12:30.300 | - No. - Oh, okay.

00:12:31.140 | - I don't know actually where they are.

00:12:32.500 | They're pretty big.

00:12:33.340 | - Sounds familiar, but I can't say I'm familiar with them.

00:12:35.940 | - They have consumer guides.

00:12:37.900 | And in those consumer,

00:12:39.220 | so Environmental Working Group,

00:12:41.220 | I'm not part of them,

00:12:42.660 | but I like their work.

00:12:44.740 | And in these consumer guides,

00:12:46.340 | you can put in the product and they have categories.

00:12:48.720 | You can put sunscreen.

00:12:50.200 | If we had time, we could do it right now.

00:12:51.940 | And then you can put the name of your sunscreen

00:12:53.820 | and it'll give you a number.

00:12:55.160 | And then if the number is less than 10,

00:12:57.540 | it'll tell you why.

00:12:58.600 | (upbeat music)

00:13:01.180 | (upbeat music)

00:13:03.760 | [MUSIC PLAYING]

How to Avoid Plastic, BPA & Chemicals | Dr. Shanna Swan & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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