Devon Larratt: Arm Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #265

00:00:00.000 | "I get so passionate about it, I get so angry."

00:00:03.280 | You know?

00:00:04.120 | Because there's this saying like,

00:00:05.080 | "Oh, can you beat him at a hook?

00:00:06.480 | "Can you beat him?"

00:00:07.320 | Man, win, win.

00:00:09.920 | That's it.

00:00:10.760 | Just win and don't talk to me about anything else.

00:00:13.460 | - You believe the match is finished.

00:00:16.540 | And I wonder if that gets in the head of the other person.

00:00:19.600 | - You see this?

00:00:20.440 | - Yeah.

00:00:21.260 | Quit.

00:00:24.020 | The following is a conversation with Devon Larratt.

00:00:29.360 | Considered by many to be one of the greatest

00:00:32.240 | arm wrestlers in history.

00:00:34.800 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:00:37.100 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:39.220 | in the description.

00:00:40.400 | And now, dear friends, here's Devon Larratt.

00:00:44.460 | You are considered to be one of the greatest

00:00:48.080 | arm wrestlers in history.

00:00:49.960 | Plus, are one of the most charismatic

00:00:52.480 | and fun people to watch in arm wrestling.

00:00:54.880 | But let me first start with the ridiculous,

00:00:57.320 | the controversial opinion.

00:00:59.100 | I actually really enjoy "Over the Top,"

00:01:01.840 | the movie with Sylvester Stallone,

00:01:04.440 | where he's a trucker.

00:01:06.040 | It's like a father-son movie.

00:01:08.480 | It's, you know, like a bunch of sports

00:01:10.560 | have the definitive movie.

00:01:12.280 | Boxing has Rocky, maybe folk style.

00:01:15.920 | Collegiate wrestling has Vision Quest.

00:01:18.680 | What else is there?

00:01:20.800 | Billiards has "Color of Money."

00:01:22.520 | This is the sort of movie for arm wrestling.

00:01:26.620 | So what did "Over the Top" get right?

00:01:28.760 | What did it get wrong about arm wrestling?

00:01:31.600 | - That was actually based off of a real story.

00:01:34.200 | A lot of people don't know that.

00:01:35.600 | Yeah, the "Over the Top" movie,

00:01:37.920 | I mean, to a certain degree,

00:01:40.640 | that's actually real life.

00:01:41.880 | Like that tournament, "Over the Top," was real.

00:01:44.240 | - It was literally named "Over the Top."

00:01:45.880 | - Yes, yes.

00:01:46.720 | There was a trucker division,

00:01:48.480 | and the guy actually won a truck for real.

00:01:50.120 | His name's John Brzenk.

00:01:51.000 | You know who that is, right?

00:01:52.440 | So the actual "Over the Top" tournament,

00:01:54.080 | the trucker division was won by John.

00:01:55.720 | - Who is John Brzenk?

00:01:57.480 | He is, a lot of people talk about him

00:02:00.160 | as like a legend and one of, if not the greatest,

00:02:03.080 | arm wrestlers of all time.

00:02:04.680 | - John Brzenk is every arm wrestler's father

00:02:09.680 | to a certain degree, all of us.

00:02:14.600 | The entire sport looks up to him.

00:02:16.380 | It's incredible what he's done.

00:02:21.620 | I mean, at 18, he won "Over the Top."

00:02:24.840 | At 57, he just competed with me a couple months ago.

00:02:29.480 | Still at the world level, 18, that's 40 years

00:02:33.720 | of being at the top of the sport.

00:02:35.720 | It's incredible.

00:02:37.080 | He's hailed as the greatest of all time

00:02:39.120 | in the sport of arm wrestling, yeah.

00:02:41.480 | - And he doesn't, he's beaten some monsters.

00:02:44.080 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:02:45.280 | - And he doesn't.

00:02:46.680 | - I mean, when you talk about like the evolution

00:02:52.280 | of the sport, he's responsible for so much of it.

00:02:56.600 | Like when you talk about, like a lot of times

00:03:00.000 | when you go back like 20 years, 30 years,

00:03:03.320 | a lot of us looked at arm wrestling, I think,

00:03:06.280 | I mean, as something you could kind of do.

00:03:09.400 | And he's the first guy who's like,

00:03:11.040 | if you want to get better at arm wrestling,

00:03:12.080 | you got to arm wrestle.

00:03:13.400 | And it seems so simple, but he answered so many questions

00:03:19.440 | that all of us had about techniques in the sport,

00:03:22.360 | back pre-video internet.

00:03:26.660 | Yeah, he's been everybody's target for like 40 years.

00:03:31.480 | - So in terms of strength, in terms of power,

00:03:33.120 | in terms of skill, what did he teach

00:03:34.960 | the sport of arm wrestling?

00:03:35.920 | So if you look, how did the sport change

00:03:38.040 | from 80s, 90s to the aughts?

00:03:41.280 | You were at the top of the world for many years.

00:03:43.840 | Many argue you're still at the very top of the world,

00:03:48.000 | but like you were very dominant, both left and right hand

00:03:51.120 | in, I don't know, 2008 to 2013, something like that.

00:03:56.120 | So how did that sport evolve to today?

00:04:00.000 | - So it's hard for me to comment prior to,

00:04:05.000 | when I came to the sport was kind of mid 90s.

00:04:08.800 | Like I've been arm wrestling my whole life,

00:04:10.440 | but I wasn't really involved in the sport

00:04:13.640 | to a major degree until probably mid 90s.

00:04:17.520 | But I'll say that before the mid 90s,

00:04:22.560 | it was really hard to get good at arm wrestling,

00:04:25.520 | very difficult.

00:04:26.700 | Everybody was doing it wrong, really.

00:04:30.360 | Like it was really rare to find people

00:04:32.960 | who were technically good arm wrestlers.

00:04:34.960 | It was very underground.

00:04:37.920 | When I got into sport, it was a flyer that came in the mail.

00:04:41.880 | You had to know somebody who knew somebody

00:04:43.720 | who knew somebody, and then you go to a club

00:04:46.480 | and you can't do anything with these people.

00:04:49.000 | And they knew how to arm wrestle, they did,

00:04:53.080 | but real masters were rare.

00:04:56.040 | And then internet, internet helped everybody.

00:05:00.880 | Communication, the transfer of knowledge

00:05:04.460 | became so much faster.

00:05:06.700 | People became technically invested.

00:05:10.960 | People started train, sharing ideas.

00:05:14.760 | By I'd say 2000,

00:05:18.240 | well, probably around the turn of the millennia,

00:05:23.080 | I'd say that professional leagues started to slowly pick up

00:05:27.160 | more organized, bigger productions

00:05:31.240 | started to attract more athletes.

00:05:33.720 | More people took it seriously.

00:05:35.520 | By 2010, I'd say there was another jump,

00:05:40.460 | more serious leagues, a little bit more money.

00:05:42.800 | By 2015, more major media,

00:05:47.360 | like people were investing a lot of money,

00:05:49.520 | like millionaires, billionaires type of people

00:05:53.240 | were organizing events, setting up leagues.

00:05:55.580 | And yeah, I mean, the past five years,

00:05:59.360 | it's just blown up.

00:06:01.040 | The techniques, I mean, if I was to go back

00:06:04.000 | to when I started, what took me 10 or 15 years to learn,

00:06:10.320 | I mean, new guys are showing up

00:06:11.760 | and they've got it down in like a year.

00:06:13.600 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:06:15.280 | - Well, the thing about it, the development of the sport

00:06:18.340 | is it's, like I was telling you off mic,

00:06:21.460 | it's a battle of one versus one.

00:06:26.460 | And then that can turn into battle of nations,

00:06:30.360 | which there is, there's Canada, there's the United States,

00:06:34.840 | there's all the Eastern Europe, Russia, Georgia,

00:06:39.860 | all of that.

00:06:40.700 | That's what makes some of the greatest sports

00:06:43.760 | in Olympics great, like weightlifting.

00:06:46.120 | It's a battle of nations,

00:06:47.440 | not just the battle of individuals.

00:06:48.920 | And it's almost like these two humans

00:06:50.800 | represent the two nations.

00:06:52.600 | And I see that very much,

00:06:53.960 | we'll talk about your matches coming up,

00:06:55.460 | but there is that battle between North America

00:06:59.740 | and that other part of the world.

00:07:01.480 | - Yeah, yeah, North America is very prized.

00:07:04.520 | The North American champion is always highly sought after

00:07:09.160 | because they're typically the most famous.

00:07:12.400 | Even still when, quite arguably,

00:07:16.000 | there's always somebody in Eastern Europe

00:07:18.560 | who's just monstrous.

00:07:20.880 | It's typically the North American athlete

00:07:23.180 | who's more recognized.

00:07:24.780 | - By the way. - Oh yeah.

00:07:26.200 | - We'll have a cup here with some maple syrup.

00:07:28.400 | - Cheers, Lex. - Cheers.

00:07:29.600 | Which should probably show,

00:07:31.460 | you just downed that whole thing.

00:07:34.560 | - No, no, no, I'm gonna sip it, I'm gonna sip it.

00:07:37.760 | But by all means.

00:07:39.400 | - It's really good, right? - That is delicious.

00:07:42.400 | - Yeah, that is-- - Canadian maple syrup.

00:07:45.720 | - Yeah, that's a perfect July day

00:07:49.920 | from Canada in a bottle, yeah.

00:07:52.240 | - So you're on a total tangent,

00:07:56.640 | you are known for appreciating food in all kinds of ways,

00:07:59.960 | but one of the things you're known for is pancakes.

00:08:02.920 | - That is, yeah, that's gone to a crazy place in the sport,

00:08:06.920 | but yeah. - Where did that originate?

00:08:09.640 | - So where that originated--

00:08:12.760 | - When it went from your actual love for pancakes

00:08:15.360 | to the meme. - Yeah.

00:08:16.520 | Yeah, so I think what happened was,

00:08:19.960 | so I had a match with Michael Todd, big match.

00:08:26.520 | Michael, great champion.

00:08:29.220 | He's another guy who's,

00:08:31.720 | he's never gonna get off the horse.

00:08:36.320 | His elbow is a complete disaster.

00:08:38.800 | Probably one of the most loved and hated guys

00:08:42.920 | in the sport right now.

00:08:44.240 | - Is it because of the King's move?

00:08:46.680 | - Yeah. - One of the--

00:08:47.880 | - Yeah, the King's move brings him a lot of hate.

00:08:50.560 | Not from me, not from a lot of people,

00:08:52.800 | but a lot of observers have a big problem

00:08:56.200 | with the King's move.

00:08:57.560 | - What's wrong with being a little bit controversial?

00:09:00.000 | That's fun.

00:09:01.600 | - I get so passionate about it.

00:09:03.360 | I get so angry, you know?

00:09:05.600 | 'Cause there's this saying like,

00:09:06.640 | "Oh, can you beat him at a hook?

00:09:08.000 | "Can you beat him?"

00:09:08.840 | Man, win.

00:09:09.920 | - Yeah. - Win.

00:09:10.880 | - That's all that matters. - That's it.

00:09:12.160 | Just win and don't talk to me about anything else.

00:09:15.400 | If you can win with style, win with style.

00:09:18.400 | But don't talk to me about anything but winning.

00:09:21.960 | That's the priority.

00:09:23.200 | - So you had this match with Michael Todd.

00:09:24.800 | - Yeah, so I was in a terrible place.

00:09:28.400 | I guess it was, I get so screwed up with the years.

00:09:31.480 | It's 2022 now, right?

00:09:33.340 | - No, it's 2030.

00:09:34.400 | What are you talking about?

00:09:35.680 | - That's right.

00:09:36.520 | I think it is actually 2030.

00:09:38.280 | We're way ahead of schedule.

00:09:40.360 | Oh, man.

00:09:41.200 | - That's right.

00:09:42.020 | So when was this?

00:09:42.860 | This was like a decade ago or no?

00:09:43.680 | - No, this is like a year and a bit ago.

00:09:47.120 | - Oh, this is very recent.

00:09:48.200 | - Very recent, yeah.

00:09:49.600 | So I got really sick.

00:09:52.120 | - Is that the match?

00:09:52.960 | - Yeah, this is the match, right?

00:09:54.760 | Awesome match.

00:09:55.760 | So this match is for the Legacy Hammer.

00:09:59.600 | So we invented this thing called the Legacy Hammer

00:10:02.160 | and Michael took it from me in, I think, 2018.

00:10:05.720 | And then COVID shut everything down

00:10:08.360 | and Michael went overseas to try and set up,

00:10:11.600 | 'cause at that time, Michael was a North American champion.

00:10:15.100 | He beat me and he went to Dubai

00:10:18.640 | and he organized this great big match with Levan.

00:10:21.560 | And the whole thing fell apart.

00:10:23.040 | Organizers, leagues, wouldn't let it happen,

00:10:25.800 | but there was still an ability to have a match

00:10:28.940 | of significance happen.

00:10:30.500 | So Michael's like, "Who do you want?"

00:10:31.800 | And I'm like, "Let's give Devin a rematch."

00:10:33.640 | And I'm like, "Yeah, yes!"

00:10:36.360 | And I was really sick at the time.

00:10:38.880 | I had DVT, I had pulmonary embolism,

00:10:41.960 | I was mentally in a terrible place

00:10:45.280 | and I got offered the match

00:10:47.000 | and I just totally turned my life around.

00:10:50.300 | And I committed really hard.

00:10:55.300 | - Yeah.

00:10:56.400 | What happened in this match, by the way?

00:10:59.880 | - Oh, I just totally destroyed him.

00:11:01.800 | (laughing)

00:11:02.640 | Yeah, I just beat the piss out of him.

00:11:04.800 | Yeah.

00:11:06.640 | Michael's a good friend of mine, but--

00:11:11.040 | - Yeah, there's a lot of camaraderie

00:11:12.600 | you guys talked afterwards, it's great.

00:11:14.480 | - But we fight like brothers, you know?

00:11:17.240 | So we let each other really fight hard against each other.

00:11:20.400 | But so I was, I knew, I mean,

00:11:23.240 | strength and mass, they go hand in hand.

00:11:26.360 | And I committed to just getting as big

00:11:29.800 | and as strong as I could.

00:11:30.800 | And literally I was eating pancakes every day.

00:11:34.000 | Bacon, pancakes, every sloppy bit of garbage food

00:11:38.120 | I could eat.

00:11:38.960 | I was trying to eat healthy also,

00:11:40.440 | but if there was garbage food, I'd eat it.

00:11:42.000 | - What do you mean bacon and pancakes isn't healthy?

00:11:44.340 | What are you talking about?

00:11:45.180 | - Exactly.

00:11:46.020 | - People should go watch, there's a video

00:11:48.680 | where you make the Canadian meal of bacon

00:11:54.160 | with some bacon cooking tips, water,

00:11:56.400 | that was interesting.

00:11:57.240 | - Yeah.

00:11:58.080 | - And then obviously pancakes and maple syrup

00:12:01.360 | all over the whole thing.

00:12:02.200 | - Yeah.

00:12:03.480 | You're making me very hungry, Lex.

00:12:05.080 | I've caused more diabetes than, you know,

00:12:08.360 | probably gonna get in trouble karmically

00:12:10.600 | for making the world obese.

00:12:12.680 | - You should probably write like a book,

00:12:14.680 | "The Pancake Diet" with Devin Laird.

00:12:16.640 | - Yeah, I think I will do that one day.

00:12:18.760 | - So you said mass and strength go hand in hand,

00:12:21.680 | just at a big level about arm wrestling.

00:12:24.240 | What's more important, strength, power, endurance,

00:12:29.120 | skill, strategy, or mental toughness?

00:12:31.760 | Like how do these components all come into play

00:12:35.520 | in arm wrestling?

00:12:36.680 | - They're all important.

00:12:38.280 | You can use everything and you can adjust your strategy

00:12:41.920 | based off of the tools that you have.

00:12:43.840 | I would say if I could pick ever just one thing

00:12:48.280 | to have more of, I would say that it would be strength

00:12:53.280 | gained while fighting.

00:12:56.240 | - While actually arm wrestling, so not off the top.

00:12:59.080 | - No, no, no.

00:12:59.920 | So you get stronger from arm wrestling.

00:13:02.120 | - How do you get stronger from arm wrestling?

00:13:03.640 | Like in jiu-jitsu and grappling, you can get good

00:13:06.080 | by training with people much technically worse than you.

00:13:11.000 | So with white belts and blue belts.

00:13:12.640 | - Yeah.

00:13:13.480 | - It's actually beneficial.

00:13:14.320 | - Agree.

00:13:15.160 | - 'Cause you get to work stuff out.

00:13:16.000 | - Right.

00:13:16.840 | - But I wouldn't say it develops like that intensity

00:13:21.840 | and power required to go against people at your level.

00:13:27.960 | So how do you balance that?

00:13:30.080 | Is it okay to go against people that are much weaker

00:13:32.160 | than you or do you really have to go against people

00:13:36.440 | at the same level?

00:13:38.040 | - I think that a blended strategy is probably the best.

00:13:44.680 | I'd say kind of a rule is whatever you do,

00:13:48.520 | you get better at, right?

00:13:49.880 | So you wanna be kind of as precise as possible.

00:13:54.200 | You don't wanna get hurt.

00:13:55.520 | And it's just about investment.

00:13:58.680 | And the answer is not always the same.

00:14:02.240 | Things are gonna change.

00:14:04.280 | I am currently a big believer in what I call tower building.

00:14:09.280 | Right, so you have to do a lot of volume

00:14:14.240 | to build a great tower.

00:14:15.720 | You need to have a ton, a ton of volume.

00:14:19.760 | So when you look at how to best build volume,

00:14:23.200 | you want to do workouts that aren't particularly challenging

00:14:27.480 | that make you feel good and do them so that

00:14:30.720 | when you add them all together, you get the biggest number.

00:14:35.160 | So many easy workouts a day that are as specific as possible

00:14:41.360 | in my opinion is the best way to lay the foundation

00:14:45.480 | for an extreme peak.

00:14:47.040 | And precision, right?

00:14:49.920 | Like there's no more precise way to get strong

00:14:53.680 | at arm wrestling than arm wrestle.

00:14:55.440 | - So how often can you arm wrestle?

00:15:00.600 | What's your training regimen?

00:15:03.160 | You've talked about this as the climb.

00:15:07.800 | What is the training process to get great at arm wrestling?

00:15:12.800 | - Well, again, it's gonna depend on what level you're at.

00:15:16.320 | The answer at the beginning might not be the same.

00:15:21.600 | For me, a guy who's been doing it almost 30 years,

00:15:25.120 | I have to harvest.

00:15:27.520 | I have to harvest energy from clubs.

00:15:29.380 | I call it cosmic punch.

00:15:32.400 | - Sorry to interrupt, you were here in Austin, Texas.

00:15:34.360 | You are in Austin, Texas, but you were at the,

00:15:37.440 | what was it called?

00:15:38.280 | The water tank. - The water tank, yeah.

00:15:39.960 | - And you had an awesome crowd.

00:15:41.280 | - It was great.

00:15:42.200 | - I get to watch, I got to interact with a lot of those guys.

00:15:45.200 | Just amazing community, amazing human beings.

00:15:49.160 | I got to talk to Dmitry in Russian and in English.

00:15:52.960 | He's an engineer, his wife is an engineer,

00:15:56.080 | so he's a brilliant dude, but also one of the toughest,

00:15:59.820 | I guess, guys you faced there.

00:16:01.560 | But you faced, I don't know how many people.

00:16:03.800 | It must have been hundreds of matches.

00:16:05.640 | - So the bar was full.

00:16:07.360 | Yeah, and that for me is a perfect training scenario.

00:16:10.880 | So if I go in and just kind of be,

00:16:13.680 | I'm like a lightning rod, and I just absorb

00:16:17.320 | everything that I can get from people, all their effort,

00:16:21.600 | that's perfect, that's perfect.

00:16:25.040 | But I'm lucky because I'm in a place that I can handle it.

00:16:28.680 | If I was losing or failing, this would not be optimal.

00:16:35.040 | But because I'm strong enough, I've been doing it long

00:16:37.840 | enough that I can kind of absorb it without damaging me,

00:16:41.400 | this is perfect, this is perfect.

00:16:43.840 | I typically, when I'm training up for a very serious match,

00:16:47.920 | I'll try and do that three or four times a week.

00:16:51.880 | And then the days in between, I will just do

00:16:55.720 | blood flow rehab, blood flow rehab.

00:16:58.560 | I will never hit a PR, a record, I'll never do it anymore.

00:17:03.040 | I don't do it.

00:17:04.320 | I used to, a lot of things change, and that's why I say

00:17:06.880 | there's a lot of ways to do it.

00:17:08.760 | This is currently a system that's working very well for me.

00:17:12.520 | - So when you say PR, you're not aggressively chasing a peak,

00:17:16.960 | you're just building and building and building.

00:17:19.000 | - Yeah, my only peak that I care about is for this cycle,

00:17:24.000 | the 25th of June, that's my only PR.

00:17:26.960 | - Let's talk about the 25th of June.

00:17:29.600 | - Oh yeah.

00:17:30.780 | - Let's talk about Levon Siganishvili, the Georgian Hulk.

00:17:35.780 | Question number one, is it possible to beat him?

00:17:42.500 | He is widely acknowledged as the most powerful person

00:17:47.500 | in arm wrestling today.

00:17:51.640 | Is he beatable?

00:17:52.880 | And if so, how?

00:17:54.940 | - Everybody's beatable, everybody's beatable.

00:17:57.280 | Levon is incredible.

00:17:58.800 | He is what this modern peak of arm wrestling represents.

00:18:03.800 | - So for people who are just listening,

00:18:08.760 | we also have an overlay of a video of Levon going

00:18:12.800 | against Vitaly Leletin, another top three person

00:18:17.160 | in the world, perhaps, in arm wrestling.

00:18:20.400 | And Levon is the guy on the right, just big.

00:18:24.560 | - I love it.

00:18:25.560 | - And the aggression, I mean, actually,

00:18:28.760 | sort of underneath it all, he seems to be a teddy bear,

00:18:31.300 | but when he turns it on, it's raw power.

00:18:36.300 | - He's the full package.

00:18:38.000 | Levon is, he represents the pinnacle.

00:18:40.980 | There's Dennis in the background.

00:18:44.000 | He's like, I wanna be back in there.

00:18:46.080 | Levon has a lot of bases covered.

00:18:49.120 | I mean, he's curling 300 pounds with one arm.

00:18:54.160 | I mean, the strength that he shows for arm wrestling

00:18:58.040 | is so far ahead of the field, is very, very strong.

00:19:04.820 | But it's absolutely possible, it's absolutely possible.

00:19:11.520 | The one thing that I'm confident about,

00:19:14.120 | well, I'd say there's two things.

00:19:16.080 | The two things I'm confident about is that I have

00:19:18.800 | more experience than he does.

00:19:21.160 | And experience counts for a lot.

00:19:24.160 | The other thing is my ability to breathe and recover.

00:19:30.280 | So if ever there's an opportunity for the tide to turn,

00:19:36.840 | that's, I think, where he'll never get it back.

00:19:40.120 | So I think if I can somehow find a hole in his game,

00:19:45.120 | then yeah.

00:19:46.880 | - So you want to hold off the initial assault of power

00:19:51.360 | and then wear him out to find the hole and then,

00:19:56.360 | how much of that is mental, how much of it is just

00:20:01.280 | the physical ability to do, for your muscles

00:20:04.360 | to have the endurance to hold off?

00:20:06.260 | - I like to make the sport bigger.

00:20:12.760 | And a lot of things that most arm wrestlers

00:20:16.160 | believe the sport is, I always try and push

00:20:20.120 | those boundaries.

00:20:21.060 | So there is definitely a mental aspect to it

00:20:26.440 | when you're faced with something that you've never

00:20:28.160 | seen before, that's when things like experience comes in.

00:20:33.160 | He can become surprised, where what's a surprise for him

00:20:38.800 | is routine for me.

00:20:40.520 | So my adjustments will be more precise, more accurate.

00:20:43.980 | Yeah, that's how I get in, that's how I get in.

00:20:48.920 | Yeah, I play a dirty game.

00:20:50.740 | - So some of it, how important is confidence

00:20:55.240 | in the progression of the match?

00:20:58.400 | Is there ups and downs of confidence?

00:21:03.200 | Like, holy shit, I actually have a chance to win this.

00:21:06.360 | Holy shit, I'm winning this, you're done.

00:21:08.360 | There's some of my favorite moments,

00:21:10.280 | I don't know if those are fake or not

00:21:11.960 | in terms of your expressions, if it's fake

00:21:14.240 | until you make it, but whenever you shake your head

00:21:17.160 | or whatever, you make it apparent that you believe

00:21:21.880 | the match is finished.

00:21:23.600 | And I wonder if that gets in the head of the other person.

00:21:26.700 | When you start to actually, so I'm sure you're doing

00:21:31.440 | things, like precise, detailed things with your hands

00:21:35.380 | to also indicate that you believe they're finished.

00:21:38.320 | But you're facially just--

00:21:40.000 | - See this? - Yeah.

00:21:41.100 | Quit.

00:21:44.440 | Oh, that's right, 'cause it's facing the other--

00:21:47.160 | (laughing)

00:21:49.400 | So that's ultimately what the battle is about.

00:21:51.120 | It's like, you're done, you might as well give up.

00:21:55.800 | - Commitment is so important in anything that you do, right?

00:21:59.840 | Like, I always kind of try and bring things

00:22:04.680 | to a level of commitment that's uncommon.

00:22:08.320 | I think that that's a lot of reasons why I do well,

00:22:11.800 | is 'cause I just get so committed in the whole process.

00:22:15.640 | And by the time that I actually show up to fight,

00:22:19.400 | I sometimes just wish that they would kill me.

00:22:22.240 | I wish that they would, because that's how far I wanna go.

00:22:27.040 | People talk about how committed are you to the match.

00:22:30.560 | If you're committed to the match and you lose,

00:22:32.360 | you should be hurt.

00:22:34.160 | That's, I'm often unhappy when I lose a match

00:22:39.160 | and I don't have an injury.

00:22:40.400 | I'm like, damn, what the fuck, I shoulda,

00:22:42.680 | I feel like I didn't commit.

00:22:45.500 | - I don't know if you know Dan Gable is the wrestler.

00:22:50.320 | - Oh yeah, he was on--

00:22:51.680 | - He was on the podcast? - Yeah.

00:22:52.840 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:22:53.680 | He talked about his whole career.

00:22:56.920 | He dreamed of working so hard that he gets,

00:23:00.160 | he can't get off the mat by himself.

00:23:03.600 | And he's disappointed ultimately at the end of his career

00:23:08.140 | because he was always able to get off the mat

00:23:10.160 | on his own accord.

00:23:11.540 | So he wants to, yeah, leave it all on the mat

00:23:15.200 | just from exhaustion.

00:23:17.000 | So that's what commitment looks like.

00:23:19.160 | - Yeah.

00:23:20.000 | - What is this process, what is this climb

00:23:21.460 | for probably the toughest match of your career?

00:23:26.460 | I would say the most epic match in arm wrestling history.

00:23:31.600 | I mean, it's really building up.

00:23:33.800 | You are, you said North America, that's,

00:23:36.840 | I mean, I think by accounts of many,

00:23:41.760 | you're one of the greatest arm wrestlers ever.

00:23:43.760 | He is one of the scariest arm wrestlers ever.

00:23:47.280 | And so this match, by the way, where is it happening?

00:23:50.200 | - It'll be in Dubai.

00:23:51.040 | - In Dubai. - Yeah.

00:23:51.920 | - June, so what does the climb look like?

00:23:55.480 | - The climb for me, what I have to change in my life

00:23:59.800 | always, people talk about being a professional.

00:24:04.040 | I've always loved the sport.

00:24:06.040 | I've loved it like crazy.

00:24:08.180 | But to me, the path is about simplicity

00:24:14.280 | and removal of distractions.

00:24:16.840 | I do better and better the more I get rid of everything,

00:24:23.680 | nothing else.

00:24:26.800 | So that my life is just the goal, just the target

00:24:31.800 | and everything else is off the table.

00:24:33.160 | And that's where I need to get to,

00:24:35.820 | where there's nothing, there's nothing between me and him.

00:24:39.920 | - And every single day you're putting in the volume.

00:24:42.600 | - Every day, all day.

00:24:44.600 | - Now you said you worked out.

00:24:45.640 | So yesterday you did hundreds of arm wrestling matches.

00:24:49.360 | And then today you said in the morning you still worked out.

00:24:51.560 | So what was that workout?

00:24:52.680 | So you're mixing up stuff where you're doing weights also?

00:24:56.600 | - This morning, I try to really focus on

00:25:01.000 | what's administratively easy.

00:25:03.520 | That's a big part of me, everything I do.

00:25:06.480 | So I just travel with bands.

00:25:08.920 | Yeah, I got bands with me.

00:25:10.760 | And it's rehabilitative in nature.

00:25:13.360 | So I'm really focusing on blood flow,

00:25:16.480 | feeling good, doing proper movements.

00:25:20.680 | But yeah, just a band workout in the hotel room.

00:25:22.920 | - What does a band workout look like?

00:25:24.440 | So are you doing the arm wrestling movement?

00:25:26.800 | Are you doing more curls? - Oh, see that?

00:25:27.640 | See what you did there?

00:25:28.760 | - What's that?

00:25:29.600 | - Yeah, it's--

00:25:31.560 | - Bet you wanna bring him in.

00:25:32.680 | - Yeah, up, up.

00:25:34.920 | Oh, the up thing?

00:25:35.760 | - Up, up, up.

00:25:36.600 | - Up into your center, right?

00:25:38.360 | You think, what can you control out here?

00:25:40.960 | No, you bring everything close.

00:25:42.760 | You want every, just that's it.

00:25:43.880 | Don't worry about pinning.

00:25:44.720 | Pinning happens once it's close to you.

00:25:46.560 | Yeah, pinning is, people always think about pinning.

00:25:50.280 | Don't think about pinning.

00:25:51.200 | - How much of the body is a part of this too?

00:25:53.040 | Like the core, the torso?

00:25:56.640 | 'Cause it feels like there's that

00:25:58.480 | almost like Mike Tyson punch power, right?

00:26:01.680 | Does it come from the hips too and the legs?

00:26:05.680 | Is it the whole body? - It's definitely

00:26:07.680 | the whole body.

00:26:08.600 | It's definitely the whole body.

00:26:10.120 | Like everything is working.

00:26:12.560 | You're connected to the table at times,

00:26:14.560 | as far as your base.

00:26:15.400 | Sometimes your base is your feet.

00:26:17.360 | But a lot of times you can base off the table.

00:26:19.600 | So you can base off your hips.

00:26:21.960 | But I'll tell you, no arm wrestler

00:26:24.760 | cares about doing squats.

00:26:26.040 | No arm wrestler's doing planks.

00:26:29.320 | Okay, it's all about the forearm

00:26:32.400 | and the actions of the hand.

00:26:34.000 | That's always the limiting factor.

00:26:36.200 | You look at a guy like Oleg Zok.

00:26:38.320 | Okay, do you know this guy?

00:26:39.720 | Oleg Zok, marvelous.

00:26:42.160 | He's a total hell boy.

00:26:43.400 | He's my inspiration to what I call pumpkin training.

00:26:47.320 | But. - What's pumpkin training?

00:26:49.160 | - Probably we'll get into that.

00:26:51.720 | But I only train my right arm, that's it.

00:26:54.680 | Yeah, with homework.

00:26:56.080 | But back to full body, it is full body.

00:27:00.520 | My good friend Matt Mask, when he arm wrestled me,

00:27:04.000 | he actually blew his internal abductor in his leg.

00:27:09.000 | So yeah, people walk away from tournament,

00:27:11.120 | their calves can be sore sometimes.

00:27:13.480 | You know, it happens.

00:27:14.760 | But no, oh, there he is right there.

00:27:16.880 | Yeah, Oleg, he is a real life hell boy.

00:27:21.400 | He's like 170 pounds there.

00:27:23.440 | Look at his arm, look at his arm.

00:27:25.440 | - It's crazy.

00:27:26.680 | - Yeah, yeah, he's totally crazy.

00:27:29.600 | - That's you doing left right there.

00:27:31.000 | So by the way, Levan, you're going right.

00:27:33.640 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:27:35.160 | So can you say more about the mental side?

00:27:39.560 | Are you visualizing what it takes to beat him?

00:27:42.280 | Are you trying to get in his head?

00:27:44.280 | All of these things.

00:27:45.840 | So do you think it's possible to get in his head?

00:27:50.720 | - There's definitely strategies that you can do

00:27:52.760 | depending on who it is you're facing.

00:27:55.400 | It's very good to know who it is you're fighting

00:27:58.040 | and choose the correct strategy mentally.

00:28:00.620 | But I always follow a process

00:28:06.480 | when it comes to my mental preparation.

00:28:09.120 | When I'm far away from an event,

00:28:11.680 | I just always build up my opponent.

00:28:15.440 | Build them, I build them, I respect them.

00:28:18.200 | To a point where I almost start to fear them

00:28:21.520 | and start to believe that they'll beat me.

00:28:23.520 | And this is a very vital part of my preparation.

00:28:27.160 | And that's where I am right now with Levan.

00:28:29.520 | I just build them up,

00:28:30.400 | build them up into this thing that scares me.

00:28:32.600 | And it forces me to be responsible,

00:28:35.880 | 'cause I don't wanna lose, I wanna win.

00:28:39.800 | So the greater my opponent,

00:28:42.920 | the greater I can build their worth in my mind,

00:28:46.080 | the more motivation it gives me.

00:28:48.480 | Then there comes a point when it changes.

00:28:52.840 | And then I start to degrade them.

00:28:56.840 | And yeah, that's when it normally starts to get fun.

00:29:00.020 | And normally by the time I face them,

00:29:04.660 | I just try and completely dominate

00:29:07.880 | from every interaction from start to finish.

00:29:10.700 | Yeah.

00:29:13.680 | - When in the actual moment of the match,

00:29:17.200 | like in the moments leading up to it,

00:29:19.640 | what's the feeling?

00:29:21.080 | Is it fear?

00:29:23.400 | Is it confidence, anxiety?

00:29:27.000 | What's going through your mind?

00:29:28.560 | - I love to fight.

00:29:31.000 | I love it.

00:29:31.840 | I always have.

00:29:33.640 | There's every day where you have the distractions of life,

00:29:41.360 | and then there's really living in the moment, right?

00:29:45.000 | It's whatever you love to do.

00:29:46.480 | And that's when you can really be free.

00:29:48.600 | I'm free when I'm fighting, right?

00:29:52.080 | So you put me in a good fight, and I just love it.

00:29:56.040 | And I don't think about the past,

00:29:57.240 | I don't think about the future.

00:29:58.360 | I just think about killing that dude in front of me,

00:30:00.640 | and I enjoy that.

00:30:02.720 | - And just being intensely in the moment.

00:30:04.800 | - That's it.

00:30:05.640 | Just right there, just fighting as hard as I can.

00:30:08.380 | - Do you study the opponent?

00:30:10.040 | Have you for this particular match,

00:30:12.440 | do you study videos of LeVon?

00:30:14.720 | - I've seen everything.

00:30:17.640 | I've read everything.

00:30:20.020 | I get opinions from other people.

00:30:22.000 | I watch very closely, yeah.

00:30:25.360 | - What do you make of his evolution?

00:30:27.160 | So he's grown in size,

00:30:30.560 | but also you've talked about his evolution

00:30:35.360 | technically as well.

00:30:36.460 | In studying him, since we're in the build your opponent

00:30:43.240 | to beat terrifying stage, what makes him great?

00:30:48.240 | - He's very impressive.

00:30:51.000 | The greatest thing about him is his strength.

00:30:54.660 | That's the thing that sets him apart from everyone.

00:30:58.680 | His strength, specialized strength,

00:31:01.960 | exact strength for arm wrestling.

00:31:03.840 | I believe it's unmatched.

00:31:06.960 | - Can we just linger on that word strength?

00:31:12.120 | What does strength mean?

00:31:13.840 | What does it feel like?

00:31:15.120 | Are we talking about bicep, like shoulder?

00:31:20.120 | Are we talking about whatever controls, the wrist?

00:31:25.240 | Is it the, how does strength manifest?

00:31:28.800 | You know, when I touch your hand, when we grab arms,

00:31:32.740 | I feel like, fuck, that's strong.

00:31:36.120 | - There's control, right?

00:31:36.960 | - What is that feeling?

00:31:37.840 | Where does that come from in arm wrestling?

00:31:40.080 | When you're at the top of the world,

00:31:41.720 | where does that come from?

00:31:42.920 | - So it's chains.

00:31:44.840 | There's chains of strength.

00:31:46.560 | And in arm wrestling, this is like technical strength.

00:31:50.480 | And we use these technical chains to fight each other.

00:31:53.460 | The chains that I'll talk about is,

00:31:58.440 | so you'll talk, remember how we talked about the post,

00:32:01.000 | this upwards drive, this ability to close this angle?

00:32:05.000 | This is a chain.

00:32:06.020 | It can be used, it's a technical attack.

00:32:09.940 | It's also an attack that can be built with training.

00:32:12.600 | Just the ability to just drive upwards.

00:32:15.600 | There's a chain where you cup, right?

00:32:17.740 | Cup your wrist in.

00:32:18.920 | Cup your wrist in, and the anchor in the chain

00:32:22.000 | brings you right to your heart, right to your center.

00:32:25.160 | This chain, and this can be done at any time.

00:32:27.920 | There's a pronation chain,

00:32:29.040 | and that's to turn your thumb over.

00:32:32.320 | Turn your thumb over,

00:32:33.360 | and you attack the person's cupping chain.

00:32:36.320 | - And there's a huge number of muscles

00:32:37.840 | involved in each of those chains.

00:32:39.160 | - And that's why I say it's a chain, right?

00:32:41.240 | But they're movements, and these movements,

00:32:45.060 | you can develop in the gym or through practice.

00:32:48.360 | - So you don't mean,

00:32:49.680 | so it's easy to sort of interpret strength

00:32:51.840 | to mean how much you curl, essentially.

00:32:54.960 | - Yeah.

00:32:55.800 | - But you mean the chain.

00:32:56.760 | It all has to do with the--

00:32:57.600 | - Right, and that's, I mean, people talk, is it a bicep?

00:32:59.800 | I mean, yes, there's bicep for sure involved,

00:33:01.860 | but I'll always be inaccurate

00:33:04.360 | if I try and tell you what muscles are the,

00:33:07.120 | so I prefer to explain it in a movement,

00:33:09.800 | and then everything that's involved to do that movement.

00:33:12.720 | Right?

00:33:13.720 | Yeah, and LeVon's movements for arm wrestling

00:33:17.360 | are incredibly impressive.

00:33:19.320 | - What do you attribute to, how much of that is genetics,

00:33:22.320 | how much of it is some training thing he's doing?

00:33:27.320 | - I think that LeVon is very special

00:33:31.920 | in terms of his genetics.

00:33:33.960 | Like, not everybody can be LeVon, you know?

00:33:37.100 | - Yeah.

00:33:37.940 | - There's not many LeVons out there.

00:33:39.320 | But what I've encountered in the bias that I always see,

00:33:44.960 | like when people talk about people like LeVon,

00:33:48.040 | they discount the other side so very quickly.

00:33:51.440 | And the thing is, LeVon rarely has to show the other side

00:33:54.480 | because he's so far ahead.

00:33:56.540 | You talk about the technical application of the sport,

00:33:59.280 | he so rarely needs to show it, but he's clearly incredible.

00:34:03.460 | If you watch his progression, he came up

00:34:07.820 | having very difficult technical struggles to overcome.

00:34:11.080 | Georgia is a great country for arm wrestling.

00:34:13.880 | Like, there's this guy Gennady Kvikvinia,

00:34:15.360 | who no one would ever say is not technical.

00:34:18.980 | And, you know, it took him years to defeat him,

00:34:23.680 | to a point where now it's not even a discussion.

00:34:26.960 | - Yeah, you talk about the progression,

00:34:28.240 | they had a lot of battles together over the years.

00:34:30.360 | - Yeah.

00:34:31.200 | - It's fascinating to see the tides turn.

00:34:33.000 | - Oh yeah, and once they've turned,

00:34:34.740 | it's like completely, completely different level.

00:34:38.880 | Yeah, I mean, he's got strength, he's got technique.

00:34:43.740 | Some people will argue that his technique is flawed.

00:34:48.660 | At times, they've shown matches where

00:34:51.780 | he hasn't shown the best technique, but he's still won.

00:34:54.940 | And I think sometimes he just plays with people, you know.

00:34:58.700 | Like, there's a famous match that he had with,

00:35:02.700 | oh, they call him the Bruce Lee of arm wrestling,

00:35:05.580 | a guy called Ongarbaev, Kyrgyzstan Ongarbaev.

00:35:08.620 | They had a match in the top eight, great match.

00:35:11.660 | Kyrgyzstan is like 220 pound guy from Kazakhstan,

00:35:15.580 | brilliant technician, but power-wise,

00:35:19.900 | you know, not in the same world.

00:35:22.580 | And Kyrgyzstan did well, even though he lost six nothing.

00:35:26.700 | He still did well.

00:35:28.780 | But in my opinion, Levon didn't care.

00:35:31.940 | Levon was like grabbing him low and just like, whatever.

00:35:34.840 | I will show him things that he's not seen before, I will.

00:35:39.180 | He hasn't competed often in this rule set,

00:35:42.980 | which will be a challenge for him.

00:35:44.680 | But yeah, what can I say?

00:35:48.020 | Like, Levon, he's Everest.

00:35:50.460 | - Yeah. - Yeah?

00:35:51.820 | - Yeah, you are seen by, basically,

00:35:54.180 | everybody is the big, big underdog.

00:35:56.220 | But you're also, even in the Eastern,

00:35:58.820 | even, I mean, I talk to Russians a lot.

00:36:01.500 | You know that moment in "Rocky"

00:36:05.260 | when they start cheering for Rocky?

00:36:06.700 | - Yeah, yeah. (laughing)

00:36:07.980 | - You're kind of the, they love you, they want you to win.

00:36:11.020 | And just, you know, it's not even,

00:36:12.720 | just the battle itself is inspiring.

00:36:16.500 | And it's like the culmination of your career,

00:36:19.780 | because you're at the top for a long time,

00:36:23.980 | but it's like, it's almost like it should be over for you.

00:36:26.860 | But no, you're returning.

00:36:28.140 | It is like this big moment.

00:36:31.620 | - Yeah. - The big climb.

00:36:34.060 | - I will be the pointy end of the spear for North America.

00:36:37.580 | (laughing)

00:36:38.900 | Yeah.

00:36:40.140 | - Beautiful, well, let's,

00:36:41.780 | thanks for bringing that match up.

00:36:43.700 | Let's talk about just

00:36:45.340 | the match against Dennis, your left-hand match.

00:36:51.620 | - Yeah. - He's also terrifying,

00:36:53.660 | and seen as one of the strongest,

00:36:54.940 | probably the one of, if not the strongest,

00:36:58.140 | left-hand arm wrestler.

00:36:59.820 | - Yeah.

00:37:00.660 | - There's a lot to be said there.

00:37:03.820 | Maybe you could talk about this match at a high level.

00:37:06.340 | Why did you take on this match?

00:37:08.060 | Why did you do the left hand versus the right hand?

00:37:10.900 | Can you tell the story?

00:37:12.340 | - Okay, Dennis Zaplankov.

00:37:15.060 | There's so much about this match.

00:37:17.100 | I love Dennis.

00:37:18.260 | - Russian guy.

00:37:19.340 | - Yeah, Russian guy.

00:37:20.540 | Russian, I used to call him Dennis Chernobyl.

00:37:23.380 | (laughing)

00:37:25.620 | What a monster.

00:37:27.500 | He kind of led, I'd say, this new era of arm wrestling,

00:37:32.500 | where the super heavyweight strength level

00:37:37.660 | has just gone through the roof.

00:37:40.260 | I wanted the match for such a long time.

00:37:42.220 | We tried to get the match.

00:37:44.300 | We couldn't get it organized.

00:37:45.500 | This is back in 2008 to 2012.

00:37:48.660 | Couldn't get the match, couldn't get the match.

00:37:50.500 | I've always been more of a one-on-one puller.

00:37:52.380 | He was doing the tournament format.

00:37:55.140 | I was ranked number one in the world.

00:37:57.220 | And towards the end, it kind of was very undecided.

00:38:00.580 | I ended up getting surgery.

00:38:02.260 | I ended up abandoning the super heavyweight division.

00:38:05.220 | I went down to 225s for a few years.

00:38:07.380 | WAL failed temporarily.

00:38:11.960 | So the 225 pound division was scrapped.

00:38:15.820 | And I said, okay, I'm gonna go for the big crown once again.

00:38:21.060 | And I started to go after super heavyweights.

00:38:23.700 | The 2018 season was right hand.

00:38:31.020 | I started to enter negotiations to have the match with him.

00:38:38.100 | We'd been chasing the match for 10 years.

00:38:41.060 | They wanted to do it left hand.

00:38:42.320 | I wanted to do it right hand.

00:38:44.380 | I just wanted to do the match.

00:38:46.340 | I wanted to do the match with Dennis.

00:38:47.600 | I wanted to meet Dennis.

00:38:48.820 | - So people should know that the right hand

00:38:51.660 | has always been your strongest.

00:38:53.620 | - It has been.

00:38:55.220 | I mean, I had surgery in 2016.

00:38:57.580 | I hate to make excuses.

00:38:59.260 | I hate to do it.

00:39:00.360 | Dennis was better than me that day, even on my best day.

00:39:05.100 | If you had gone back my entire career,

00:39:07.880 | at no single day do I beat Dennis Zaplankov in 2018.

00:39:11.660 | I would like to think that I could maybe do it now.

00:39:14.380 | But at that point, there would be no version

00:39:16.820 | that could have beat him.

00:39:18.700 | - Left or right?

00:39:20.500 | - Right hand, no.

00:39:21.900 | I'm curious about the right.

00:39:23.660 | But left hand.

00:39:25.500 | - So is the world.

00:39:27.400 | - Well, it might still happen.

00:39:28.580 | It might.

00:39:29.460 | But Dennis completely destroyed me.

00:39:34.460 | And I learned a lot from it.

00:39:39.860 | I think before the Dennis match,

00:39:45.460 | I think I was, I don't know.

00:39:47.020 | I don't know exactly what words to use.

00:39:49.860 | Maybe I felt like my thinking was a little bit elitist.

00:39:53.960 | And I really learned a lot.

00:39:57.100 | I was really humbled that day

00:39:58.900 | by how far and how professional

00:40:03.620 | and how prepared Dennis was.

00:40:06.100 | And how seriously he took the sport.

00:40:09.460 | - There's a mental, a slightly terrifying calmness to him,

00:40:14.980 | which only comes with extreme preparation, I think.

00:40:17.900 | - Yeah, his level of dedication

00:40:21.100 | was extremely inspiring to me.

00:40:23.460 | I used to do a job where it was serious enough

00:40:31.300 | that the price could be death, right?

00:40:37.740 | And I arm wrestled throughout that entire period.

00:40:41.660 | And I always kind of looked at the cost

00:40:46.660 | of doing an activity being death, limited to soldiering.

00:40:53.260 | And I kind of changed my mind a lot after that match.

00:41:00.340 | I realized that anything that you're in love with,

00:41:03.660 | once you get far enough down the road

00:41:06.700 | and professional enough at it, it's gonna kill you.

00:41:09.980 | Doesn't matter what you're doing.

00:41:11.420 | If you're crazy enough about anything,

00:41:13.780 | it's probably gonna take your life from you in some way.

00:41:16.620 | And that doesn't mean you rush towards death.

00:41:21.340 | It's just your level of investment and level of risk

00:41:24.140 | can have some catastrophic effects.

00:41:27.580 | - Bukowski, Charles Bukowski, I think has the quote,

00:41:31.100 | "Do what you love and let it kill you."

00:41:32.980 | - Right. - Like that.

00:41:33.940 | - Right.

00:41:35.420 | And I understood that Dennis's level of professionalism

00:41:40.660 | far exceeded mine in what we were doing at the time.

00:41:44.780 | And I realized that I was no longer employed.

00:41:50.380 | I was now in the world of professional arm wrestling.

00:41:54.340 | And I realized that what was I doing?

00:41:58.700 | Like how serious was I?

00:42:00.580 | So Dennis is an incredible guy.

00:42:02.820 | - Is there moments in that match,

00:42:04.540 | there's this humility there too from him.

00:42:07.740 | That was a fascinating sort of,

00:42:11.660 | it seemed like you realized that you just hit a wall

00:42:14.540 | and you were not ready enough for it.

00:42:16.180 | - It was incredible.

00:42:17.860 | There was so many things that I remember

00:42:19.620 | about the Dennis match.

00:42:21.020 | I mean, I remember seeing video of somebody

00:42:25.180 | and then meeting them in person, it's different.

00:42:28.140 | I remember in the weigh-ins, sorry, not the weigh-ins,

00:42:30.260 | in the standoff that we did before the match,

00:42:32.900 | I'm looking at him, I'm close, I'm looking at his arms.

00:42:36.620 | And his bicep, it looked like an ass.

00:42:41.620 | Like it was like a fricking glute muscle.

00:42:44.500 | Like his entire structure was so sinewy

00:42:48.100 | and just so strong.

00:42:51.620 | I was like, wow, physically so impressive.

00:42:55.140 | And I remember when I arm wrestled him

00:42:58.460 | at a certain time, he allowed me to kind of set my position.

00:43:04.620 | You can't really tell 'cause it happens very quickly,

00:43:09.260 | but he let me set my position,

00:43:10.740 | which means I kind of got my locks in

00:43:13.460 | where you can kind of really do a great hold.

00:43:17.200 | And he just ripped through me.

00:43:20.340 | - So you were able to get this great position.

00:43:23.900 | So it was-- - Tore right through me.

00:43:27.220 | Yeah, and the first time I ever thought

00:43:30.700 | that I had torn something,

00:43:33.220 | I thought like after the match,

00:43:34.540 | I'm like, "Jeez, did he rip my chest right in half?"

00:43:37.100 | - What, did it?

00:43:40.420 | - No, I think-- - It was 100% chest?

00:43:42.140 | - Yeah, no, I didn't actually,

00:43:43.860 | nothing went purple or anything,

00:43:45.940 | but yeah, the strength gap was very significant with Dennis.

00:43:50.940 | - So could he, what would it take to beat him on that day?

00:43:56.140 | - It would take me just being a little bit stronger,

00:44:03.120 | - More focused. - and more healthy, yeah.

00:44:06.600 | My left was not as healthy as it should be.

00:44:10.000 | Like I didn't have a full rounded technical arsenal.

00:44:13.840 | It takes a time after surgery, it really does.

00:44:16.480 | Like, I mean, you can be good,

00:44:18.800 | but after a surgery like what I had,

00:44:21.960 | you're probably looking at three or four years

00:44:24.160 | before you're starting to hit technical proficiency

00:44:26.800 | the way you should be.

00:44:27.900 | And yeah, just a bit stronger.

00:44:31.240 | - How do you interpret the calmness on his face?

00:44:33.720 | What is that about?

00:44:35.200 | Is he actually that calm? - It's very Russian, isn't it?

00:44:37.040 | - It's a Russian thing? - It's a Russian thing,

00:44:38.280 | I think, I don't know.

00:44:39.320 | I see a lot of Russians like that,

00:44:40.800 | you know, they're so like stoic.

00:44:42.680 | And I'm such a fan of Russia,

00:44:44.800 | I really wanna go to Moscow, I've been saying it forever.

00:44:47.520 | - You've never been? - Not yet, not yet.

00:44:49.280 | I wanna go, I wanna just go and live there

00:44:51.960 | for like a month and just train.

00:44:53.440 | Moscow's got such a crazy arm wrestling scene.

00:44:56.600 | They've got, from what I understand,

00:44:57.680 | they just have so many clubs,

00:44:58.720 | there's so many strong athletes.

00:45:00.600 | Just go and just lightning rod, yeah.

00:45:04.000 | - Have you considered doing something of that sort,

00:45:08.000 | it's like Rocky IV again?

00:45:09.840 | - Oh yeah.

00:45:10.680 | - Like, and lead up to June?

00:45:12.960 | - I would certainly consider it.

00:45:14.580 | I've got only one trip planned at the moment.

00:45:18.100 | Administration is very important.

00:45:22.880 | - What do you mean by administration?

00:45:24.080 | So like managing your time?

00:45:25.360 | - Management, yeah, the management has to be very efficient.

00:45:28.960 | You know, when I'm a tourist, when I'm a visitor,

00:45:31.900 | a little bit of that goes down.

00:45:33.400 | You know, when I'm at my home and things are familiar,

00:45:37.160 | I've got a really great grasp on my time.

00:45:39.880 | You know, everything's in place, everything's perfect.

00:45:42.960 | You know, if I could magically transport Moscow

00:45:46.320 | into my hometown and just go out and visit them, yeah.

00:45:50.120 | - So it's very difficult when you're traveling,

00:45:51.480 | you have to keep all the,

00:45:53.160 | you have to figure out what are you eating,

00:45:55.840 | how are you getting the food, all the socializing,

00:45:58.520 | plus you're more and more a celebrity,

00:46:01.000 | so there's social interaction,

00:46:02.760 | which I don't know how draining that could be on you

00:46:05.520 | outside of the arm wrestling table.

00:46:07.600 | So you have to manage all of that

00:46:09.640 | 'cause ultimately you have to focus on the fight ahead.

00:46:13.960 | - Yeah, yeah, a lot of my strength comes

00:46:17.520 | from just being in a familiar place, doing my routine.

00:46:22.320 | I love to travel.

00:46:23.760 | I love to get out there and meet people and new experiences,

00:46:28.760 | but when I just wanna really prepare for a big match,

00:46:32.400 | yeah, home is where I get strong.

00:46:35.640 | - So that loss against Dennis

00:46:37.360 | was one of the few losses in your career.

00:46:40.920 | How did that feel in the moments after,

00:46:45.200 | in the days after, in the months after,

00:46:47.400 | in the years after, how has it changed you

00:46:50.600 | as an arm wrestler, as a human being?

00:46:53.360 | - Well, it's tough to lose.

00:46:57.240 | - Still haunt you?

00:46:59.300 | - I don't think so.

00:47:02.720 | I actually was really happy to lose to Dennis

00:47:05.240 | because sometimes when you lose a match,

00:47:08.520 | there's a lot of matches that I've lost

00:47:10.360 | where they upset me because I know I made a mistake.

00:47:14.120 | I didn't make a mistake with Dennis.

00:47:15.360 | He was just way better.

00:47:17.280 | There's nothing I could have done that day.

00:47:19.760 | I'm really at peace with it.

00:47:22.800 | Dennis, to me, was just a big inspiration.

00:47:25.280 | I think that me arm wrestling Dennis left-handed that day

00:47:28.240 | just let me touch probably one of the strongest

00:47:31.600 | human beings on the arm wrestling table that's ever lived,

00:47:34.320 | left-handed.

00:47:35.160 | - So knowing that's possible is almost like

00:47:40.000 | inspiration to you that I can be at that level too.

00:47:43.400 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:45.320 | Seeing what Dennis did,

00:47:46.800 | just trying to absorb a little bit of his knowledge,

00:47:51.840 | planted seeds in me.

00:47:53.720 | Yeah, I mean, when I look at my career,

00:47:56.960 | it's a bit like the stock market,

00:47:59.040 | but for sure I'm trending upwards.

00:48:02.080 | And since really kind of wrapping my mind around

00:48:07.080 | some of the Russian philosophies,

00:48:09.200 | they really changed my training systems.

00:48:12.240 | There was some base philosophies

00:48:14.400 | that they talked to me about over there

00:48:16.520 | that massively impacted my training.

00:48:19.640 | - Is it possible to convert some of those philosophies

00:48:21.960 | into words?

00:48:22.800 | Can you describe some of the ideas they taught you?

00:48:25.400 | - So-- - Never smile.

00:48:26.880 | - Ah, right?

00:48:28.520 | Man, it's so, like, it takes a while to break the ice

00:48:32.400 | with a lot of these guys.

00:48:33.640 | - Well, once you do, I mean,

00:48:35.760 | that's as deep as Bonsi can form there.

00:48:37.840 | - Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:48:39.640 | I think that I was raised under,

00:48:43.320 | I believe it's a flawed, I mean, it's not flawed

00:48:47.440 | because it has its value as well,

00:48:49.500 | but it's best if you understand both philosophies.

00:48:54.680 | I think a North American thing that's just so ingrained

00:48:59.640 | in our fitness society is no pain, no gain, you know?

00:49:04.640 | And just pushing and, like, sweating and going harder

00:49:09.400 | and, like, fighting through, like, and grit and tough,

00:49:13.760 | but, and then you talk to the Russians

00:49:16.240 | and they're like, yeah, never fail.

00:49:18.200 | You never fail.

00:49:19.080 | Never go to failure.

00:49:21.440 | Always feel good.

00:49:23.120 | Always feel good.

00:49:23.960 | It should always feel good.

00:49:24.780 | Don't, and those two philosophies

00:49:28.480 | express themselves very differently.

00:49:30.620 | And if you wanna get strong, yeah, don't fail.

00:49:36.360 | Don't fail.

00:49:37.520 | - So that's how you, they also are believers of volume.

00:49:41.640 | - Yeah, there's a lot of strategies,

00:49:44.880 | but, you know, volume is a massive principle.

00:49:47.320 | And volume is very hard to achieve

00:49:50.560 | when you're believing in no pain, no gain, right?

00:49:53.760 | They don't really go together.

00:49:55.320 | No pain, no gain, more injuries.

00:49:57.580 | - So the, is there parallels?

00:50:00.360 | 'Cause in wrestling, some of the greatest wrestlers

00:50:03.040 | of all time are Russian, and they were big,

00:50:06.400 | Dan Gable talks about it, they were big on play,

00:50:10.000 | like lighter wrestling, 'cause probably,

00:50:12.760 | ultimately, actually, it boils down to

00:50:15.480 | that's how you achieve higher volume.

00:50:17.320 | - Right.

00:50:18.160 | - Like over the stretch of years,

00:50:20.240 | the way to reduce injury,

00:50:22.240 | I mean, in wrestling, also, technique might

00:50:28.240 | have greater value than it does in arm wrestling.

00:50:32.200 | Obviously, technique, extremely important in arm wrestling,

00:50:34.760 | but power is, like, can defeat technique, it seems like.

00:50:39.760 | In wrestling, you can get away,

00:50:42.560 | there's a lot of ways you can really do sneak attacks,

00:50:46.640 | sort of use leverage, all those kinds of things.

00:50:49.000 | So there's even more incentive to do play

00:50:51.880 | and all that kind of stuff.

00:50:53.400 | But do you see the parallels between the two worlds?

00:50:56.800 | - Oh, yeah.

00:50:57.640 | - Wrestling and arm wrestling?

00:50:58.460 | - 100%.

00:50:59.300 | You saw what I did the other night, right?

00:51:01.480 | So I'm playing on the table for hours, right?

00:51:04.220 | So that's my number one training thing that I do,

00:51:09.160 | is I go on the table for hours and I play.

00:51:13.080 | - Yeah.

00:51:14.000 | Yeah, when you did, Sergey, can you pull up that video?

00:51:16.800 | It's on Devin's channel, the water tank one.

00:51:20.320 | - Oh, it's like 180p.

00:51:22.120 | It's like the wifi in there was so bad.

00:51:25.200 | - Yeah.

00:51:26.040 | - It's great, I love it.

00:51:26.880 | It's maybe, I don't know if it was fisheye,

00:51:29.720 | but it had a fisheye feel.

00:51:31.320 | - Yeah.

00:51:32.160 | - Crowded, I mean, so much camaraderie.

00:51:33.560 | It was amazing.

00:51:34.880 | But maybe just a brief mention of Dmitry,

00:51:39.240 | the Russian guy.

00:51:42.480 | In that play, what are some memorable things here?

00:51:48.880 | Like when you go against a bunch of different people,

00:51:51.240 | a bunch of strangers, what are all the differences?

00:51:54.000 | And how do you grow from them?

00:51:55.440 | How do you learn from them?

00:51:56.460 | - Well, everybody's a bit different.

00:51:58.000 | So I love to go to new clubs

00:52:02.120 | 'cause the energy's always high.

00:52:04.280 | Like the first time you go to a club,

00:52:06.120 | everybody's trying to kill you.

00:52:07.480 | - Yeah.

00:52:08.320 | - Yeah, so they're gonna--

00:52:09.140 | - There's excitement and there's this,

00:52:09.980 | and so you feed off of that.

00:52:11.080 | - Yeah, you do.

00:52:11.920 | You can, if you're able to be strong enough

00:52:14.420 | to absorb it without injury, it's awesome.

00:52:17.040 | It's awesome.

00:52:17.880 | - 'Cause they're giving you everything they can.

00:52:20.480 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:52:22.480 | Yeah, right.

00:52:23.760 | So it's very specific, right?

00:52:26.040 | Like I'm gonna get way stronger at arm wrestling.

00:52:28.120 | And what I try and do when I go to these places

00:52:31.360 | is I make an assumption.

00:52:33.160 | I make an assumption that I'm the best guy there.

00:52:36.120 | And so I'll arm wrestle in a way that kind of protects them

00:52:41.120 | 'cause the more I can protect them

00:52:43.400 | and kind of keep them kind of in a good position,

00:52:47.320 | they can actually give me more, right?

00:52:49.720 | So I kind of give them little pieces

00:52:52.760 | that I think will put them in a place

00:52:55.480 | that they can really give me more.

00:52:58.280 | And so yeah, that's what I'm doing.

00:53:00.420 | And then when I see somebody like Dimitri,

00:53:03.040 | I pull that in a little bit, right?

00:53:06.200 | So, okay, so I know Dimitri's the number one guy in Texas.

00:53:09.660 | Lots of respect to the guy.

00:53:12.320 | I won't give him all the pieces

00:53:15.000 | until I really kind of gauge where he's at

00:53:17.800 | because I certainly in training don't wanna fail.

00:53:21.420 | I don't want that.

00:53:22.320 | I don't want to, when you fail in arm wrestling,

00:53:25.880 | it's just, imagine it's just bad technique.

00:53:28.480 | And you're trying and bad technique,

00:53:30.080 | you're gonna get hurt.

00:53:31.360 | Yeah.

00:53:32.200 | - You always wanna be in a strong position here.

00:53:34.000 | What about, how does endurance come into play here?

00:53:37.040 | And here's video of you strapping up with Dimitri.

00:53:39.960 | - Yeah.

00:53:40.800 | - How do you, I mean, you went for like,

00:53:42.800 | I don't know, two hours?

00:53:43.920 | - Yeah, it was long.

00:53:44.880 | So this first run of the video,

00:53:47.340 | I think was a little over an hour.

00:53:49.120 | Then I took a break

00:53:50.280 | and I probably did another 45 minutes or so.

00:53:52.600 | But I mean, do you, how can,

00:53:56.440 | are you okay with the endurance aspect of this?

00:53:58.880 | - Yeah, that's probably like,

00:54:00.320 | when you talk to the arm wrestling world,

00:54:01.720 | that's probably what I'm best known for is my endurance.

00:54:05.040 | - So this helps build that.

00:54:07.120 | - It does, but that's not why I'm doing it.

00:54:08.840 | I'm doing it to get strong.

00:54:11.040 | In my opinion, this is one of the best ways to get strong,

00:54:14.760 | especially far away from a tournament

00:54:17.960 | or any kind of an event.

00:54:19.380 | I wouldn't wanna do this, you know,

00:54:24.080 | even a month or even six weeks

00:54:27.000 | or even maybe even eight weeks before a big event.

00:54:29.760 | I'd wanna already be kind of shrinking my volume.

00:54:33.320 | But far away from an event, yeah,

00:54:35.720 | as much volume as your body can handle,

00:54:37.480 | and you'll feel it, you'll feel it.

00:54:39.360 | Like I felt it at times, like, you know,

00:54:41.580 | after the hour mark, I'm like, okay,

00:54:43.120 | I can feel my blood sugar kind of diminishing.

00:54:45.600 | I can feel like the blood that's going to my muscles

00:54:48.700 | is kind of like, it's not really pushing more good stuff in,

00:54:53.340 | it's, I'm starting to break down.

00:54:55.160 | And you don't want that, you don't want that.

00:54:57.960 | - Quick pause, bathroom break?

00:54:59.880 | - I'm good, I'm good.

00:55:00.720 | - Okay, I kind of need one.

00:55:02.600 | - I'll maybe get a sweater, it's a bit.

00:55:04.400 | - Is it cold?

00:55:05.380 | Does that matter, does that care for chemical?

00:55:07.520 | - No, no, no, no.

00:55:08.360 | - I can make it warmer.

00:55:09.360 | - No, no, no, I'll just put a sweater on,

00:55:10.440 | it's fine, that doesn't matter.

00:55:12.200 | - And I still love the idea of you going to Russia.

00:55:14.400 | - Yeah.

00:55:15.240 | - And training there.

00:55:16.360 | - Yeah.

00:55:17.180 | - I'm also making a trip out to Russia.

00:55:18.880 | - Oh yeah, when?

00:55:19.720 | - For different, well, it's hard with the current conflict.

00:55:22.680 | - Oh yeah.

00:55:23.520 | - The tension's there,

00:55:24.340 | but I'm hoping before your match, actually, so May.

00:55:27.720 | - Okay.

00:55:28.560 | - For a couple of interviews with a couple of folks,

00:55:31.320 | some of which people know.

00:55:32.800 | Maybe I could ask you about,

00:55:36.000 | to comment on some matches that stand out to you

00:55:40.040 | in your career.

00:55:42.840 | - Sure.

00:55:43.680 | - Is there something, is there a particular,

00:55:48.400 | I have a bunch that I really enjoy,

00:55:50.040 | but is there something that stands out to you as memorable?

00:55:54.280 | We talked about sort of a defining loss, perhaps, to Dennis.

00:55:59.280 | Then you faced Michael Tyler, who mentioned John Brzenk.

00:56:05.680 | You faced Matt.

00:56:08.740 | Is there something that stands out to you

00:56:11.720 | that technically or psychologically

00:56:14.600 | you've learned a lot from?

00:56:16.660 | - I feel like I try and learn something from every match,

00:56:20.320 | but there is a very special match to me

00:56:22.640 | that to this day I can't explain.

00:56:25.020 | Very weird phenomena.

00:56:30.320 | So I think it was 2005,

00:56:33.520 | was my first combat tour overseas.

00:56:38.720 | So it was a active tour,

00:56:42.560 | among other things, I got shot during that tour,

00:56:47.680 | like we got blown, a long tour, rough tour.

00:56:51.000 | And I trained the whole time through

00:56:53.560 | knowing that at the end of this,

00:56:55.200 | I was gonna have a big match.

00:56:56.960 | So there's a champion, a guy called Ron Bath.

00:57:01.280 | He's kind of, if there was no John Brzenk,

00:57:05.040 | there would be Ron Bath.

00:57:06.640 | Okay, so extremely decorated,

00:57:10.200 | unbelievable arm wrestler from the United States.

00:57:13.200 | And this is kind of when I was just

00:57:15.280 | kind of coming up in the sport still.

00:57:17.580 | I was fairly well established.

00:57:18.960 | I was definitely the best guy in Canada.

00:57:21.040 | And I had been for a few years,

00:57:23.040 | but I hadn't really expanded internationally too much.

00:57:27.640 | So I had a one-on-one match with Ron Bath,

00:57:32.400 | and that's the one, yeah.

00:57:36.360 | Extremely hard fought battle.

00:57:39.360 | Was three-one, I think, three-one,

00:57:41.600 | but every match was really close.

00:57:44.000 | And he won the first one,

00:57:45.940 | and I had to kind of dig my way out of the trenches

00:57:49.140 | and ended up coming back and winning.

00:57:51.420 | But it was a match that was probably,

00:57:55.260 | it was probably one of my closest matches ever.

00:57:58.260 | And it was--

00:58:00.740 | - It seems like there's frustration on you.

00:58:02.340 | What is that?

00:58:03.180 | What was going through your mind here with these?

00:58:06.720 | Was it, first of all, going in,

00:58:07.980 | did you think you could beat him?

00:58:09.860 | What was the level of confidence?

00:58:10.700 | - I always think I can win.

00:58:12.140 | Like I always do.

00:58:14.500 | But a lot of respect to the guy.

00:58:16.900 | But yeah, I mean, I always think I can do it.

00:58:20.180 | - So what lessons did you take away from it?

00:58:24.660 | Why is it so meaningful to you?

00:58:26.400 | - Well, it's what happened afterwards.

00:58:29.580 | So I had some kind of a release afterwards,

00:58:32.920 | and that was the strange thing to me.

00:58:36.300 | So match ended,

00:58:41.020 | and I felt like so relaxed afterwards,

00:58:44.820 | so calm, so satisfied,

00:58:49.620 | because it was one of those matches

00:58:51.740 | that kind of takes everything from you, but you win it.

00:58:54.740 | And I was relaxing in the chair,

00:58:58.880 | and I've never had this sensation before.

00:59:03.500 | I've never had it afterwards,

00:59:05.340 | but it's like the center of my backbone just exploded.

00:59:10.680 | And it was like, so weird, right?

00:59:14.640 | 'Cause I'm not really spiritual that much or religious even,

00:59:17.860 | but it's like a fire just ripped through me.

00:59:20.820 | And it only lasted an instant,

00:59:22.700 | just exploded through my whole body,

00:59:24.960 | out the top, through my feet, and then it was gone.

00:59:29.980 | That was it.

00:59:31.620 | Weirdest thing I've ever felt in my entire life.

00:59:34.020 | Yeah, but it was as a result of what happened in the match

00:59:39.780 | and leading up to it, I had some kind of a release.

00:59:42.720 | - How did you interpret it psychologically?

00:59:48.340 | Was it like some kind of,

00:59:51.660 | I mean, not to be spiritual or whatever,

00:59:53.620 | but some kind of superpower that was

00:59:55.460 | like a lingering feeling like, holy shit,

01:00:01.240 | - I can't explain it.

01:00:06.540 | And I haven't really tried hard enough to try to.

01:00:10.420 | - But something changed.

01:00:11.420 | - Something happened there, yeah.

01:00:13.380 | Something happened to me,

01:00:14.300 | I was sore for about three or four months afterwards.

01:00:16.660 | It's like it smoked out my entire body.

01:00:19.420 | Yeah, that whole summer I was kind of sore.

01:00:22.140 | And yeah, and then after that,

01:00:24.420 | like two or three years later,

01:00:25.940 | that's when I won the world championships.

01:00:28.060 | Yeah, I mean, all the matches are,

01:00:31.660 | you get something from people,

01:00:34.220 | you study them, you take something from them.

01:00:37.860 | People have an invisible crown and he had one.

01:00:42.660 | And I think I took it from him.

01:00:44.220 | - Maybe that was the feeling of wearing the crown.

01:00:48.940 | - Yeah, maybe.

01:00:49.800 | - What about all the trash talk?

01:00:52.140 | How much of that did you learn?

01:00:53.620 | Does that come naturally to you?

01:00:54.900 | You're one of the most charismatic, fun.

01:00:56.980 | I mean, there's always like respect behind it.

01:01:00.060 | I would say to me, and I'm a fan of a lot of sports,

01:01:03.180 | you're one of the greatest trash talkers

01:01:05.460 | in all of sports that I've ever seen

01:01:07.820 | because you're able to talk shit,

01:01:10.220 | but there's so much love and respect behind it.

01:01:13.700 | It's just masterful.

01:01:14.900 | But you also get into people's heads in the moment.

01:01:17.820 | It's beautiful to watch 'cause it really gets,

01:01:20.780 | it gets to some people.

01:01:22.240 | So where does that come from?

01:01:23.460 | - It's a powerful weapon, right?

01:01:25.180 | - Yeah.

01:01:26.020 | - Your voice is a powerful, powerful weapon.

01:01:28.820 | And it's underutilized by so many athletes

01:01:31.460 | because they think that it's not sportsmanlike

01:01:34.900 | or something like that.

01:01:37.220 | But the truth is, I mean, you can be a weak person,

01:01:42.220 | but with your voice, you can influence

01:01:46.660 | and change any number of things.

01:01:48.820 | And the same thing happens in a fight between two people.

01:01:52.380 | If you can just be a never ending flow

01:01:56.700 | of negative encouragement to someone,

01:01:59.980 | or suggestion, anything can happen.

01:02:04.980 | It's a tool.

01:02:06.940 | And when you're fighting a person,

01:02:11.320 | you're not just fighting them.

01:02:13.380 | You're fighting everyone who's watching.

01:02:15.860 | You're fighting the crowd, the referees.

01:02:19.260 | And to get in the most ideal positions, situations,

01:02:24.260 | you need to use your voice.

01:02:27.140 | Yeah.

01:02:27.980 | - There's a, for people who haven't seen,

01:02:30.500 | I definitely recommend you watch

01:02:32.020 | a bunch of arm wrestling matches

01:02:33.300 | 'cause there's a crowd really gets into it.

01:02:36.020 | And it feels like there's a really intimate connection

01:02:38.940 | with the crowd, I suppose,

01:02:40.340 | because the crowd is allowed to be very close to you.

01:02:42.220 | - Yeah, I love it.

01:02:43.980 | I want the crowd right up on me.

01:02:47.500 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:02:48.660 | - So sometimes, oh yeah.

01:02:52.820 | So who are you, whenever you talk to somebody,

01:02:56.460 | do you literally pick somebody from the crowd?

01:02:58.260 | - Oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:02:59.460 | I'll start fucking off his fans.

01:03:03.340 | I'll start talking to their wives or whatever.

01:03:08.280 | Yeah, there's Jody.

01:03:11.780 | She's pretty dangerous to listen to also.

01:03:16.140 | But yeah, one of his buddies, Mike Solaris,

01:03:18.340 | who's a really good arm wrestler, was cheering for him.

01:03:23.340 | So I started to go after him.

01:03:25.380 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:03:26.740 | - Smiling the whole time.

01:03:27.780 | - Yeah, it's fun, right?

01:03:29.060 | It's fun.

01:03:29.900 | - It's a fan, it's fun to listen to.

01:03:31.780 | But it's also, what's fun is how much it actually affects

01:03:35.340 | some of the people you're facing.

01:03:36.660 | They get frustrated.

01:03:37.740 | - Yeah. - It's great to see.

01:03:39.140 | - Well, you have to fight, right?

01:03:40.880 | Like a lot of people think things will be given to them.

01:03:43.980 | And the thing that I've always believed

01:03:47.140 | from the time I was very young,

01:03:48.700 | I was convinced that our inevitable death

01:03:54.860 | was gonna come from aliens, right?

01:03:57.140 | Like some super aggressive, super violent species

01:04:01.340 | was gonna come and smoke us all.

01:04:02.940 | And I'm like, I'm not like that.

01:04:06.660 | I'm like, but as soon as one person is,

01:04:09.180 | then you're forced to have to accept it as reality, right?

01:04:12.940 | So I like to fight for every single thing.

01:04:17.940 | I like to try and be more and more aggressive.

01:04:20.460 | And if someone matches me,

01:04:22.360 | that's when I can use my endurance.

01:04:24.140 | And if they don't, then I have the tactical advantage.

01:04:27.560 | So that's kind of my balance point.

01:04:29.300 | - And then, by the way, you also yell at the ref.

01:04:31.820 | - Yeah. - I mean, the games,

01:04:33.420 | there's like levels to this game.

01:04:35.540 | But the feeling sometimes when people get frustrated

01:04:38.540 | is like, okay, this person's cheating.

01:04:40.500 | Or like you're trying to get a good grip

01:04:43.620 | before it goes.

01:04:47.460 | And I think some of the frustration

01:04:50.160 | in combination with the trash talk

01:04:51.700 | is, well, this person is cheating.

01:04:53.580 | - Right. - But everybody is like

01:04:55.420 | kind of trying to cheat, get an edge within the rules.

01:04:58.860 | - Yeah.

01:04:59.780 | So I try and just ramp it, ramp it, ramp it.

01:05:03.000 | But everybody's different.

01:05:06.740 | I've learned how to play the game

01:05:08.840 | based off of the tools that I have physically.

01:05:11.300 | And for me, this works because my genetic makeup

01:05:16.300 | is more of a persistence hunter, right?

01:05:19.420 | So like I need to extend things.

01:05:21.540 | And that works well for me.

01:05:23.940 | If I was more explosive,

01:05:28.940 | I probably wouldn't have the same strategies, yeah.

01:05:31.960 | - By the way, for people who are watching,

01:05:36.260 | you're wearing a No Limits hoodie,

01:05:37.700 | which is one of your nicknames.

01:05:40.260 | - I don't wash this thing too much.

01:05:42.340 | It's my bacterial shield to the world, yeah.

01:05:45.940 | - Awesome, so you mentioned Jodi.

01:05:48.780 | She's often in your corner

01:05:51.140 | and does perhaps more trash talking than even you.

01:05:54.780 | So I mean, if we could step away,

01:05:58.420 | she's an incredible human being.

01:06:00.020 | As sort of as a fan, it's fun to watch the two of you,

01:06:04.100 | both when you're arm wrestling and just as people.

01:06:07.340 | You just see so much, I don't know,

01:06:11.660 | kindness and love radiating from the two of you

01:06:14.860 | whenever you're trash talking or talking about

01:06:18.060 | just random things or just talking about life.

01:06:20.620 | It's just a beautiful thing to watch.

01:06:22.020 | And thank you for sharing that with the world.

01:06:23.460 | But maybe, can you, she paid me to ask you this,

01:06:28.460 | but what are the things you love about Jodi,

01:06:32.220 | your wife, Jodi Lark?

01:06:33.500 | What are the ways she's affected your life?

01:06:37.620 | - Yeah, Jodi and I go way back, right?

01:06:42.660 | We were in high school together.

01:06:46.700 | The thing that I admire most in people is bravery.

01:06:51.700 | To me, it's the most admirable quality.

01:06:56.780 | And Jodi always has inspired me 'cause she's such a fighter.

01:07:02.780 | If she believes that something's true,

01:07:07.820 | she does not back down.

01:07:10.820 | She will not.

01:07:11.900 | And not to say that she can't change her mind

01:07:15.060 | 'cause she can, but while she is convicted,

01:07:18.700 | she'll not stop fighting.

01:07:21.360 | She's pulled me out of the fire repeatedly.

01:07:25.380 | We've lived through so many things.

01:07:28.580 | Very lucky.

01:07:29.620 | - How has she made you a better arm wrestler?

01:07:32.220 | - She's fed me.

01:07:33.140 | - Yeah, I could see your videos of your house

01:07:38.300 | basically coming apart when she's not there.

01:07:42.940 | - Yeah, without Jodi, I'm on the street living in a tent

01:07:46.780 | and yeah, eating dog food.

01:07:50.100 | - Bravery.

01:07:54.980 | What about love?

01:07:56.020 | How has love made you stronger?

01:07:57.660 | Now we're gonna make Devin uncomfortable.

01:08:00.160 | - Love is difficult to accept.

01:08:03.220 | Love is one of those things that a lot of times,

01:08:09.260 | you don't feel worthy of it.

01:08:12.660 | And so it's hard sometimes to accept someone's love.

01:08:15.900 | And someone who really loves you,

01:08:18.900 | they'll love you even when you don't.

01:08:20.860 | And here you go, you're gonna make me cry, Lex.

01:08:25.020 | Yeah, Jodi and I have been through so much.

01:08:28.580 | And she's shown me how, she's supported me

01:08:35.500 | just repeatedly, repeatedly.

01:08:37.660 | - Some of that is loyalty and patience and perseverance

01:08:40.660 | and all those things.

01:08:41.860 | That's like when love really shows itself.

01:08:46.220 | - Yeah.

01:08:47.060 | - It's like sticking through together for years,

01:08:49.420 | even when you're through the shitty times.

01:08:52.660 | - Love and faith are powerful forces in this universe.

01:08:57.020 | Without them, we can descend into darkness very quickly.

01:09:02.020 | As a world, even between people,

01:09:04.620 | when love and faith is destroyed, then we fall apart.

01:09:10.980 | And I've been graced by the love that Jodi's given me.

01:09:15.980 | It's allowed me to continue to build.

01:09:19.820 | When you have love between people, then you build together.

01:09:22.780 | I love my family, I love Canada,

01:09:27.780 | I love the arm wrestling community.

01:09:29.420 | I have a love for what we're trying to achieve

01:09:31.580 | as a human species.

01:09:32.780 | When that falls apart, we don't have much.

01:09:38.740 | - Yeah, just with my boy there, yeah.

01:09:42.500 | - Yeah.

01:09:43.340 | You also mentioned you were,

01:09:46.460 | you once had a job where your death was a real possibility.

01:09:53.860 | So you were in the Canadian Special Forces.

01:09:56.980 | What did you take away from that experience,

01:10:00.520 | that time in your life?

01:10:02.260 | - Yeah, it was such a great life.

01:10:05.820 | Really, really loved it.

01:10:07.100 | Honestly, I never wanted to leave.

01:10:09.620 | I never thought I would leave.

01:10:10.820 | I thought I'd be there my whole life.

01:10:12.660 | Real honor to get to serve.

01:10:18.300 | - What did you get to do?

01:10:19.460 | What was the things you loved craftsmanship-wise,

01:10:22.440 | like fun things you get to do, learn and challenge yourself?

01:10:25.940 | And you mentioned sort of honor

01:10:28.780 | in terms of the serving part.

01:10:31.340 | - Yeah.

01:10:34.140 | My favorite thing about serving in the Special Forces

01:10:38.940 | was for sure the people that I worked with.

01:10:41.540 | That's probably the first thing I could say.

01:10:43.740 | I never, I always felt totally comfortable

01:10:49.420 | in putting my life in the other guy's hands.

01:10:52.500 | I was so happy to be in a place where I felt I could follow.

01:10:57.280 | Didn't matter.

01:11:00.900 | I knew that the people ahead of me were incredible.

01:11:04.380 | I knew the people beside me were incredible.

01:11:07.100 | So just having that faith in your team, it's very special.

01:11:10.860 | And to know that they're there for a reason

01:11:13.620 | that has nothing to do with money.

01:11:15.260 | You know, and that's what kind of brings everybody together,

01:11:18.600 | is you're there for a higher purpose.

01:11:20.540 | And in terms of being an adrenaline junkie,

01:11:24.500 | there's nothing like it.

01:11:26.500 | I mean, there's nothing like going out at night and fighting.

01:11:30.620 | And when I say fighting,

01:11:31.940 | like my whole life I wanted to fight.

01:11:34.560 | And to me, there's a lot of,

01:11:39.820 | and look it, I've said this in the past,

01:11:42.420 | and I think it's been a personal failure of mine,

01:11:44.840 | because I've said things like,

01:11:46.580 | it's the highest level that you can do.

01:11:48.060 | And I don't believe that to be true anymore.

01:11:49.900 | But at the time, I thought it was the best way

01:11:54.540 | I could express my drives that I had, you know,

01:11:58.380 | to be a fighter.

01:12:00.500 | - So your sense in the past, and maybe in part now,

01:12:03.740 | is that fighting is when humans get a chance

01:12:07.460 | to express themselves deeply.

01:12:09.460 | Like that mix of the bravery, the integrity,

01:12:14.460 | whatever that is that makes us human,

01:12:19.260 | that human spirit can really shine.

01:12:21.100 | - And I don't believe that anymore.

01:12:22.700 | I believe that you can do that in any field,

01:12:25.900 | in any discipline.

01:12:27.220 | You know, if you go hard enough,

01:12:28.500 | it all kind of starts to feel the same.

01:12:30.660 | But at the time, that expression to me

01:12:35.820 | was really, really awesome.

01:12:37.340 | I loved close quarter battle.

01:12:39.660 | That was my favorite thing.

01:12:40.860 | That's really the whole reason I was there.

01:12:43.020 | - Can you describe close quarter battle?

01:12:46.300 | - Close quarter battle is team fighting.

01:12:50.100 | So, and it can look a lot of different ways,

01:12:53.580 | but basically it's ground troops

01:12:57.380 | doing some kind of a mission.

01:13:00.420 | And it's the orchestrated movement that is the skill.

01:13:04.180 | The orchestrated movement and the drills

01:13:07.340 | done quickly and accurately, it's very difficult.

01:13:10.140 | - With communication?

01:13:11.700 | - With communication.

01:13:12.540 | - Yeah, so it's basically cooperating together,

01:13:16.260 | communicating, there's some strategy,

01:13:18.140 | there's some adapting to the changing environment.

01:13:20.860 | - And the more the team works together,

01:13:22.420 | the less communication there is.

01:13:24.060 | Yeah, yeah.

01:13:26.180 | And that's an amazing thing to do,

01:13:28.140 | to be part of a machine, well, machine,

01:13:30.740 | a team of people who can fight together like that.

01:13:35.740 | I think it's, we're really designed to do it.

01:13:39.900 | Like, as good as we can fight as individuals,

01:13:42.580 | the thing that makes us really good

01:13:43.940 | is our ability to fight as a team, yeah.

01:13:46.820 | - Yeah, that's one of the things that makes us really human

01:13:50.500 | is that collective intelligence and the social aspect.

01:13:52.940 | And fighting is the highest of stakes.

01:13:56.620 | So that social interaction under the highest of stakes

01:13:59.260 | is, really does bring out something that's deeply human.

01:14:04.260 | I mean, war in general brings out something deeply human.

01:14:10.340 | - It does.

01:14:11.580 | - It's, I mean, obvious to say that it's tragic

01:14:15.380 | that it results in so much loss of life and well-being.

01:14:21.380 | Let me, if it's okay for a brief moment

01:14:25.340 | to take us back to arm wrestling.

01:14:28.660 | We did this like offline, we talked about,

01:14:31.660 | you gave me some advice about arm wrestling.

01:14:34.020 | But maybe do a high-level overview

01:14:35.820 | of like the different styles and strategies

01:14:40.820 | that we've talked about.

01:14:43.420 | We talked about the importance of strength and power,

01:14:46.620 | but is there like offensive, defensive styles?

01:14:49.940 | Is there, we mentioned King's move.

01:14:52.740 | What would you classify your style as?

01:14:55.780 | It's nice for people that don't know,

01:14:58.300 | maybe even zoom back out.

01:14:59.700 | So arm wrestling is a sport where two people have to,

01:15:04.700 | when we talk about strictly the sport,

01:15:09.820 | put their elbow on a particular pad,

01:15:12.180 | means they have to keep that elbow on that pad.

01:15:15.620 | And they win when the back of one of their hands

01:15:20.620 | crosses some kind of, or basically touches the table.

01:15:23.740 | And when you actually lock up,

01:15:28.100 | you do so depending on the organization,

01:15:32.380 | without straps, meaning there's just you, agree.

01:15:36.700 | It's like mutual agreement that you're going to

01:15:39.060 | clasp your hands in a way that's fair.

01:15:43.100 | And there's a referee that helps ensure that it's fair,

01:15:45.540 | but of course there's these little games going on.

01:15:47.900 | And then when you actually go all out with this battle,

01:15:51.300 | if there's no straps, you can slip out.

01:15:53.780 | So often you'll put the straps,

01:15:55.900 | which means you're, it's like marriage.

01:15:58.060 | - Yeah. - You're committed.

01:15:59.860 | - Yeah.

01:16:00.980 | - For like somebody will have to lose essentially.

01:16:04.260 | There's no pulling out.

01:16:05.540 | So that's sort of the battle.

01:16:09.500 | Within that, what are the different styles

01:16:12.580 | that you can speak to that people that don't know

01:16:14.740 | arm wrestling could understand?

01:16:17.500 | - Yeah, we can start to kind of just dance

01:16:19.260 | around the subject a bit.

01:16:21.120 | I'd say there's a lot of different types.

01:16:25.860 | There's specialists, and there's kind of blenders

01:16:30.860 | and people who are very versatile.

01:16:33.060 | A lot of guys win world championships on one singular move.

01:16:38.300 | They get just extremely crisp at say a hook or a top roll.

01:16:43.700 | And their style is very kind of focused.

01:16:46.900 | And you'll see it with a lot of athletes.

01:16:49.620 | Like kind of a talk guy, but guy who's very active,

01:16:54.140 | a guy called Jerry Catarat.

01:16:55.740 | Okay, as soon as you think Jerry Catarat,

01:16:57.740 | he's got a very unique style.

01:16:58.980 | He's got a flop wrist press.

01:17:00.620 | Okay, so most of his technique

01:17:02.940 | is built around this one system.

01:17:04.660 | - Flop wrist means you're-- - Yes.

01:17:08.380 | - What it sounds like. - Yeah.

01:17:09.700 | - So your wrist is flopped, so it looks like you're pushing.

01:17:12.780 | So he is pushing from a losing position.

01:17:15.500 | - No, he will be offensive.

01:17:18.060 | So he will be in a press, so offensively,

01:17:20.380 | so he'll give his hand away

01:17:22.500 | so that he can get his shoulder behind it properly.

01:17:24.740 | - So he doesn't, wow.

01:17:27.100 | - Right. - So you can press,

01:17:28.420 | press means like push. - Push.

01:17:31.660 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:17:33.420 | - Without having that hook position.

01:17:36.260 | - Right, which is what most people are always looking for.

01:17:40.300 | And Jerry's looking for it as well.

01:17:41.820 | And then, so example, there's another one.

01:17:43.740 | There's another specialist, Matt Mask.

01:17:45.380 | - Yeah. - He's a top roller, right?

01:17:47.780 | Basically, that's his great move, is a top roll.

01:17:51.740 | And his other weapons aren't nearly as powerful.

01:17:54.740 | Just incredible top roll.

01:17:57.820 | And then you have a lot of athletes that are more blended.

01:18:00.420 | Okay, they have a lot of good options.

01:18:02.340 | I think that I probably fall more into that category.

01:18:07.140 | You have people who are more speed guys, okay?

01:18:10.780 | So they try and do very little, I'd call it attrition.

01:18:15.780 | Right, so a lot of people are very willing to trade energy.

01:18:21.060 | - Mm-hmm. - Right, 'cause they have faith

01:18:22.620 | that their gas tank or their pool

01:18:25.300 | eventually will tire the other person out.

01:18:27.260 | So anytime there's a trade, they'll trade.

01:18:30.300 | Whereas a guy like Travis Bajan,

01:18:32.540 | he was very, very well known

01:18:35.820 | as being extremely explosive, right?

01:18:38.580 | But if the match stops, typically he's gonna lose.

01:18:42.260 | All right, so based off of your genetics, your hand,

01:18:48.140 | there's a lot of ways to skin it.

01:18:50.580 | So I think you said something like you're a 20-second guy.

01:18:55.580 | - That's right, I'm a 20-second guy.

01:19:00.300 | - So what are the seconds we're talking about?

01:19:03.220 | So a lot of the power people,

01:19:04.740 | they wanna win in the first maybe five seconds.

01:19:06.860 | - Even shorter.

01:19:08.180 | - Just that first push, that first press.

01:19:10.900 | - Absolutely. - And that's it.

01:19:12.740 | - Right to the pad, yeah.

01:19:14.660 | - And so you're trying to hold off that attack.

01:19:17.380 | - Yeah, if I beat you in a second,

01:19:19.440 | we're not in the same world, yeah.

01:19:21.720 | When I'm with my peer group,

01:19:25.540 | I will typically win 20 seconds and beyond.

01:19:28.860 | That's a typical win for me when I'm with a peer.

01:19:31.780 | Whereas other guys, when they're with their peers,

01:19:35.740 | they'll win in a second, right?

01:19:37.340 | That's how they do it.

01:19:38.180 | That's the way they're built, that's the way they train.

01:19:41.660 | Yeah, most guys at a higher level,

01:19:45.620 | it all starts to kind of,

01:19:47.020 | it starts to get more and more difficult

01:19:49.380 | to be a specialist at the high level now.

01:19:51.860 | Some people just have little holes in their games.

01:19:54.360 | It's rare to get someone who can really do all the moves.

01:20:00.380 | It's very rare.

01:20:01.460 | - Where would you put Levon?

01:20:06.740 | - I would not say he's a specialist.

01:20:08.740 | I'd say his top roll is the strongest move.

01:20:11.700 | - Top roll.

01:20:12.540 | - Top roll is the strongest move, yeah.

01:20:14.780 | And the interesting thing about the specialist

01:20:18.700 | versus the blender, there's a counter, right?

01:20:23.700 | Every move has a move that theoretically

01:20:27.380 | should be the right choice.

01:20:29.420 | So if you're a single move guy,

01:20:31.700 | there's gonna be a guy out there who will get you.

01:20:35.660 | Yeah, it'll be very difficult for you to beat that guy.

01:20:38.460 | But when you come to a tournament,

01:20:43.180 | typically specialists do much better in tournament scenarios

01:20:47.780 | because their singular move can get them

01:20:50.060 | through a tournament very quickly and efficiently.

01:20:53.100 | Whereas you get a blender in a tournament,

01:20:55.300 | they typically will have longer and more difficult matches.

01:20:58.860 | - It buys you out.

01:20:59.940 | - Right, yeah.

01:21:00.940 | But in supermatch format, typically blenders do better.

01:21:05.820 | - So we offline also talked about arm sumo

01:21:09.700 | or freedom arm wrestling.

01:21:11.500 | I don't know how you wanna call it.

01:21:12.660 | - Oh, I love freedom.

01:21:13.700 | (laughing)

01:21:15.940 | - Exactly, North American way.

01:21:19.180 | So this is this idea, and I watched a few videos,

01:21:25.420 | and it looks fun, is basically removing the restriction

01:21:29.020 | of having to keep your elbow on the pad

01:21:32.100 | and just being able to arm wrestle over the whole table.

01:21:35.380 | I think you've mentioned that the criticism that gets

01:21:38.020 | is it might be injury prone or something like that.

01:21:40.820 | So can you describe this arm sumo,

01:21:43.060 | freedom arm wrestling idea?

01:21:45.500 | - When you come to freedom arm wrestling,

01:21:47.500 | basically it removes the limitation

01:21:50.580 | of a standard arm wrestling table.

01:21:52.780 | So basically every single thing

01:21:54.420 | is a freedom arm wrestling table.

01:21:56.020 | Some are better than others.

01:21:57.900 | So looking for that nice table where we can kind

01:22:00.660 | of stand apart from each other and we're anatomically

01:22:04.420 | in a fairly safe position.

01:22:06.980 | And the rules in freedom, the way you win is like

01:22:10.580 | the knuckles must either touch the tabletop

01:22:14.100 | or you hold it off the edge for a three count.

01:22:17.980 | So this is the main way to win.

01:22:20.180 | Yes, you can foul, like if you lift your elbow up,

01:22:22.020 | it's still a foul, but you have the entire playing surface.

01:22:25.180 | So your elbow is no longer limited to your seven by seven

01:22:28.100 | or seven by nine pad.

01:22:29.580 | So you can move it all over the table.

01:22:31.020 | You can move your body around the table a bit too.

01:22:34.060 | - And if it's a big table,

01:22:35.340 | your body could largely be on the table.

01:22:38.260 | - Yeah, so it basically it's like adjusting your ring size.

01:22:41.140 | So arm wrestling, you're fighting in a phone booth.

01:22:44.700 | So you're fighting in a field,

01:22:46.380 | you're fighting just bigger.

01:22:47.940 | So it just makes the sport bigger.

01:22:50.260 | Yeah, this is Japan.

01:22:51.500 | - But even on a small table,

01:22:54.500 | even in a slightly larger phone booth,

01:22:56.420 | you can get a lot more fun and variety.

01:22:59.500 | - Way more, I love it.

01:23:01.420 | I think it makes the sport bigger.

01:23:02.820 | I actually believe that it's the future of the sport.

01:23:05.460 | I really do.

01:23:06.820 | - Because it makes it more accessible.

01:23:08.100 | Like you don't need the equipment,

01:23:09.220 | you can do it at a bar, all that kind of stuff.

01:23:11.260 | - Yeah, less equipment requirements.

01:23:14.300 | Most kids start freedom.

01:23:16.980 | Like most kids arm wrestle on school desks.

01:23:19.380 | Yeah, and like if you see a guy on the street,

01:23:21.700 | you're like, whatever, like you can arm wrestle anywhere.

01:23:23.660 | You don't need to bring your table around with you.

01:23:26.380 | - If we talked about the elite level,

01:23:29.780 | if somebody was interested in starting in arm wrestling

01:23:34.780 | or like going from just like, you know,

01:23:39.820 | go to the gym, you kind of lift,

01:23:42.180 | you've arm wrestled a few times,

01:23:43.780 | trying to get better at it, trying to learn.

01:23:45.660 | How would you advise like getting better

01:23:48.940 | to where you can beat your closest buddies?

01:23:51.380 | - Yeah. - That first step.

01:23:53.220 | - First step, I'd say find people.

01:23:56.660 | Find people, find good people.

01:23:58.980 | - Volume.

01:24:01.500 | - Well, get with a club,

01:24:02.340 | get with people who know what they're doing,

01:24:03.540 | who can mentor you.

01:24:04.980 | - And that's really cool.

01:24:05.820 | I realized there's a club in Austin.

01:24:08.620 | - Yeah. - I'm sure there's

01:24:09.460 | in a lot of places. - Oh, they're everywhere.

01:24:11.180 | We got this app called Armbet.

01:24:14.220 | Yeah.

01:24:15.060 | - Which is a app that helps you find other people there.

01:24:18.020 | - Yeah, very easy.

01:24:19.300 | But I mean, they're all over social networks.

01:24:21.460 | I mean, it's kind of widespread now.

01:24:24.500 | But yeah, find people, find people.

01:24:27.860 | And it's just much easier to learn with another person

01:24:31.820 | and you'll get stronger that way.

01:24:33.740 | But I mean, do the lifts.

01:24:36.380 | I mean, if you go to the gym, just start doing the lifts.

01:24:39.580 | And right away, those will technically prepare you.

01:24:42.940 | - What are the lifts?

01:24:44.420 | Can we describe?

01:24:45.260 | - Yeah, so I'd say if you wanna just keep it

01:24:48.140 | very, very simple, let's just talk about three.

01:24:50.820 | There's much more than three.

01:24:52.820 | But when you talk about energy allocation,

01:24:56.140 | these three lifts, in my opinion,

01:24:58.660 | should be like 90% of your investment.

01:25:02.900 | It's very big, these three lifts.

01:25:05.040 | And the exact percentages, you can argue about it,

01:25:10.580 | but we'll start off with the cupping of the wrist.

01:25:14.180 | Just this, it's a simple thing.

01:25:16.220 | And do it with a cable.

01:25:19.340 | You can get a thicker diameter,

01:25:20.980 | so it kind of is more out on your fingers

01:25:24.260 | where an armrest is gonna attack you.

01:25:26.340 | Because any good armrest is gonna attack your fingers.

01:25:28.500 | - So like open hand?

01:25:30.060 | - No, no.

01:25:31.300 | Well, I mean, for health, yes, you could.

01:25:33.880 | But if you wanna be really specific,

01:25:35.980 | you train exactly the way you would at a table,

01:25:38.700 | in the position that you actually start the match.

01:25:40.980 | - And then you're just doing this kind of--

01:25:43.500 | - Yes, to your center.

01:25:47.820 | One of the big misconceptions in arm wrestling

01:25:50.340 | is that you're aiming for that pin pad.

01:25:52.780 | - No, the chest up here.

01:25:57.020 | - Bring it close to you.

01:25:58.220 | Make it come close to you.

01:25:59.780 | You see, whenever I do my exercises,

01:26:02.060 | the vector is always pulling straight towards me.

01:26:05.280 | So just cupping close to you.

01:26:10.020 | The most dangerous thing that a person can do to me

01:26:12.500 | on an arm wrestling match is just pull me away from my body.

01:26:15.420 | That's a terrible thing for me.

01:26:17.460 | Yeah, so that cupping,

01:26:19.900 | that's a massive part of the sport.

01:26:22.820 | So now when you think,

01:26:25.860 | what does the cup do to the other person?

01:26:28.380 | If I cup, they get turned over, right?

01:26:33.100 | So this has to get really strong.

01:26:35.120 | This pronation.

01:26:37.720 | - To fight that rolling.

01:26:42.940 | - Exactly, yeah.

01:26:44.260 | So that's through the thumb.

01:26:47.260 | - Yeah, oh, so you put, got it.

01:26:50.220 | You put on the thumb and you put this motion.

01:26:52.820 | - Yeah.

01:26:53.700 | - Got it.

01:26:54.540 | - Yeah, and those two things,

01:26:56.040 | those two things together, this cupping and rolling,

01:26:59.340 | this is what's gonna make the person's hand bend back.

01:27:02.220 | And once a person's hand is bent back,

01:27:05.100 | just their whole game gets cut to pieces.

01:27:07.980 | They have very little good options.

01:27:09.900 | It's all like nasty stuff.

01:27:12.140 | - Wow. - Yeah.

01:27:13.100 | So those two things, that's a huge part

01:27:16.020 | of your investment.

01:27:18.040 | Rise, always be climbing.

01:27:22.900 | Yeah, exactly.

01:27:24.740 | Yeah, those three simple things,

01:27:27.740 | that's what I would tell anybody to spend

01:27:29.940 | most of their time on if you wanna become an art wrestler.

01:27:32.380 | - So, and to use bands would be good for this.

01:27:35.660 | - Bands are great because they're easy to transport.

01:27:38.060 | The only problem I have with bands is like,

01:27:40.980 | if you like to measure, you know,

01:27:42.740 | and if you like to be precise,

01:27:43.740 | bands just aren't that precise.

01:27:45.220 | - Right, to have growth.

01:27:46.780 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:27:47.780 | - I mean, it's just like, you know,

01:27:48.940 | you know exactly what you need.

01:27:50.620 | The prescription is kind of, a band is kind of like,

01:27:53.500 | and a lot of people, myself included,

01:27:55.660 | I like to know exactly my outputs.

01:27:59.660 | So weights.

01:28:01.180 | - So it would be like cables?

01:28:04.220 | - Yep, cables are nice.

01:28:06.140 | Bands are great too.

01:28:07.100 | I mix the two.

01:28:08.700 | Bands are when I kind of don't need to,

01:28:13.460 | they're more like easy for me.

01:28:15.780 | When I train bands, bands are dangerous

01:28:18.340 | 'cause the acceleration is so high on them.

01:28:20.180 | Like when you screw up with band training,

01:28:21.980 | the acceleration is way faster than gravity, right?

01:28:25.340 | So if you do something bad,

01:28:26.660 | it can make it go really much worse.

01:28:29.540 | - Yeah, it's funny that you didn't mention bicep curls or--

01:28:34.540 | - Well, it's a chain.

01:28:36.700 | It's a chain.

01:28:37.540 | - Right, I mean, the idea, if you focus on these three,

01:28:40.540 | the other stuff catches up.

01:28:41.700 | Like it's all involved.

01:28:43.340 | This whole thing is involved.

01:28:45.020 | - So if you have an ax, right, the blade of the ax,

01:28:50.020 | that's these things, right?

01:28:54.220 | Like you need the pointy end of all your attacks

01:28:57.420 | to be awesome, right?

01:28:59.500 | - If you have a super sharp ax,

01:29:01.500 | you could have a shitty hand.

01:29:02.740 | - Exactly, yeah, right?

01:29:05.100 | - Yeah, so focus on that.

01:29:06.540 | - The pointy, the tip of the ax.

01:29:08.860 | - Yeah, the tip of the ax is so important, right?

01:29:11.140 | Like if I have an awesome bicep and I can't quite use it,

01:29:15.100 | what's it good for, right?

01:29:16.660 | - Yeah, I think a lot of the motions

01:29:18.580 | with the wrist that you mentioned

01:29:19.700 | are just thinking about jujitsu, especially in the gi.

01:29:23.620 | There's a lot of, I mean, there's so much importance to this

01:29:27.660 | and people don't often work it explicitly.

01:29:32.660 | So many of the chokes require ability to,

01:29:35.380 | it's almost like exactly like arm wrestling.

01:29:37.460 | - Very close.

01:29:38.300 | - Because you're weak here, what's that called, flop wrist,

01:29:42.140 | and you're strong with the cup, yeah.

01:29:45.420 | And so just getting the muscle, whatever that's involved,

01:29:49.700 | the muscle, the turning, the pressure,

01:29:51.340 | 'cause that's where also the choke comes.

01:29:54.120 | That little, the thing that makes you win in arm wrestling

01:29:57.700 | is also the thing that finishes the person

01:30:00.300 | when you have them grabbed.

01:30:02.140 | - The strength is very similar.

01:30:03.700 | - Yeah, it's fascinating actually.

01:30:05.460 | Of course, like you said, if you wanna be very good,

01:30:08.300 | you should be doing the very specific exact motion.

01:30:12.060 | - Yeah, so if I was gonna do jujitsu,

01:30:13.620 | I'd be like working out with the gi.

01:30:15.560 | - Yeah, the problem is, you know,

01:30:18.500 | it's difficult to construct the exact,

01:30:23.500 | so you have to actually go with people

01:30:25.660 | and then they don't like being choked on, right?

01:30:28.940 | So like it's hard to, I'm actually a big,

01:30:31.620 | we have these kinds of debates all the time,

01:30:33.780 | is I'm a big believer in drilling.

01:30:38.420 | I love doing something thousands of times.

01:30:40.740 | Like John Donahue, somebody I mentioned to you

01:30:43.140 | about the jujitsu folks here,

01:30:45.980 | they're less believers in drilling.

01:30:47.980 | They see the value of almost like the mind

01:30:52.260 | of going live and exploring ideas, it's that play.

01:30:56.580 | You don't need to do the thing a thousand times.

01:30:58.920 | You just need to always be thinking

01:31:01.660 | about the little details that make you better.

01:31:05.220 | And then in action practicing, like developing the strength,

01:31:09.380 | the power, the explosive of the agility in action.

01:31:12.360 | So actually rolling.

01:31:14.060 | I don't, you know, I agree with this,

01:31:16.860 | but I just believe in volume more.

01:31:20.100 | - Yeah, so you can accomplish it through volume.

01:31:22.180 | You can play a lot.

01:31:24.780 | - Yes, exactly.

01:31:25.700 | Well, that's the, if you really wanna get good,

01:31:28.420 | is you're talking about, I mean,

01:31:30.740 | that's why a lot of these folks

01:31:33.300 | are training three times a day.

01:31:34.380 | They're doing, you know, they're putting in the hours,

01:31:36.980 | eight hours, nine hours, just--

01:31:40.060 | - Whoa, that's tough, oh my God.

01:31:41.860 | - Well, so there are a lot of them are not going hard.

01:31:44.020 | It's just being on the mat.

01:31:45.380 | Some of it is just sitting there talking through ideas,

01:31:47.980 | watching others or teaching, explaining stuff.

01:31:50.740 | It's just, it's like, it's not just physical.

01:31:53.780 | It's mental too, 'cause you're keeping in your mind.

01:31:56.840 | And some of the greatest, this is what they talk about,

01:31:59.660 | the wrestlers I've talked with, the fighters,

01:32:03.820 | at the top of their career, they basically,

01:32:06.940 | George St. Pierre is like this, another fellow Canadian,

01:32:11.900 | is like, has stick figures in his head that he can't help.

01:32:16.900 | They're like in there, 'cause if you train enough hours,

01:32:20.580 | it's just gonna be in your head

01:32:23.420 | and they're all going to be playing around in your head.

01:32:25.780 | And some little detail over time,

01:32:27.840 | it's almost like computing or something like that.

01:32:29.740 | And that ends up having a result,

01:32:32.520 | even though you're not physically doing anything.

01:32:34.720 | It's always in there.

01:32:36.660 | I do have to return to diet real quick.

01:32:41.280 | I know we're talking about pancakes.

01:32:42.840 | Let me, quite seriously, you are one of the,

01:32:47.840 | I mean, strongest athletes in the world for your sport.

01:32:54.120 | So you have to get big, you have to get powerful,

01:32:56.360 | you have to get strong.

01:32:57.740 | What is the right diet for you for that?

01:33:02.080 | Like, what do you eat?

01:33:04.380 | How often do you eat?

01:33:06.960 | Yeah, from the highest detail to the smallest,

01:33:11.340 | or the things that make you happy and feel good.

01:33:13.800 | - Yeah, I've experimented with every diet.

01:33:17.800 | I've done it all.

01:33:19.040 | I've been a vegan.

01:33:20.920 | I've done raw.

01:33:22.080 | I've eaten only meat.

01:33:24.020 | I've eaten balanced.

01:33:26.240 | I've eaten like a bodybuilder.

01:33:28.580 | You name it, I've probably tried it.

01:33:32.520 | I don't believe that it's as important

01:33:38.740 | in the sport of arm wrestling

01:33:40.360 | as it is perhaps in other sports.

01:33:42.560 | I believe that, I mean, just to be very basic,

01:33:47.400 | I mean, if you're eating enough food,

01:33:49.160 | you're probably gonna be okay.

01:33:51.680 | - So it's just calories?

01:33:53.560 | - It's a lot, I mean, really, I mean,

01:33:55.680 | not to overcomplicate it,

01:33:57.000 | but I mean, that's where the conversation starts.

01:33:59.040 | Are you eating enough food?

01:34:00.400 | And it can come in any number of ways.

01:34:04.520 | And I don't think it's as important

01:34:08.360 | as a lot of other people do.

01:34:11.080 | I'm certainly irresponsible in a lot,

01:34:13.600 | but the thing is, back to like volume, right?

01:34:17.360 | Like you need to, like if you wanna be a super heavyweight,

01:34:21.640 | it's very different

01:34:23.680 | than if you wanna be a weight category guy.

01:34:26.040 | If you wanna be a weight category guy,

01:34:27.720 | I'd say that you need to be more responsible,

01:34:30.200 | make better choices.

01:34:32.040 | If you wanna be a super heavyweight, everything.

01:34:36.080 | - Just so we're watching a delicious looking omelet.

01:34:38.340 | So eggs, bacon, syrup, so you don't care carbs.

01:34:42.160 | So in all the things you've tried,

01:34:43.640 | so I mostly eat meat now.

01:34:46.460 | And I landed on that.

01:34:48.000 | There's several things, obviously I'm not,

01:34:51.720 | but I do a lot of sport.

01:34:53.520 | And I was very surprised how my particular,

01:34:55.640 | very specific body can perform better with only meat.

01:35:00.640 | Why better?

01:35:01.480 | The sports I do, the mind matters.

01:35:03.280 | And so for some reason, my mind is just clear.

01:35:06.160 | And I don't think, 'cause it feels unhealthy.

01:35:09.040 | It just makes me feel really good.

01:35:10.840 | I don't think I would recommend it to anybody else.

01:35:13.760 | So it's interesting that that journey of just exploring

01:35:18.760 | can take you to figure out something about your own self.

01:35:22.980 | - One of the most interesting things

01:35:25.000 | that I heard about nutrition was,

01:35:28.340 | I heard there was--

01:35:29.180 | - You actually put Doritos on, I forgot about that.

01:35:31.220 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm an idiot.

01:35:33.120 | Now I'd say over the last couple years,

01:35:38.100 | I've really gone into carbs a lot,

01:35:40.780 | and high glycemic carbs.

01:35:42.720 | Just to, I feel like it's one of the best things you can do

01:35:44.880 | if you're working out really hard.

01:35:46.000 | Just add carbs. - Cheers.

01:35:47.840 | - Exactly.

01:35:48.680 | But, oh, where was I?

01:35:55.200 | - So you've added-- (laughs)

01:35:56.960 | - Distracted. - The syrup is--

01:35:58.120 | - I forget everything. - So delicious,

01:35:58.960 | it's distracting.

01:35:59.980 | No, so you've added the high glycemic carbs into the mix.

01:36:03.560 | So that, those help, but that's for mass building.

01:36:06.600 | - Right, so there was a study that I heard about

01:36:10.120 | by somebody who's trying to identify heart attacks.

01:36:12.940 | They did this great big study, and at the end of it,

01:36:15.960 | I mean, didn't matter what the people ate,

01:36:18.900 | the most important thing was how they felt

01:36:21.620 | about the food that they were eating.

01:36:23.700 | Yeah, so if you believe in the food,

01:36:27.580 | if you believe that it's gonna do good things for you,

01:36:30.660 | and if you allocate it the right way,

01:36:32.780 | it's gonna have a positive impact.

01:36:35.420 | And I try and do that, no matter what it is.

01:36:37.620 | I have my foods that I think do certain things,

01:36:40.140 | and so, for me, I know that, actually, I mean,

01:36:45.140 | I learned about corn-fed pumps when I was overseas.

01:36:49.920 | I realized that if I, I never used to eat crap,

01:36:54.600 | really didn't, I ate super clean all the time.

01:36:57.700 | And when I was faced with imminent death more,

01:37:05.040 | I would be like, okay, I'm going out tonight,

01:37:07.920 | let's have a couple ice cream bars.

01:37:10.600 | You know, like, whatever.

01:37:12.080 | And what I realized is if I eat an entire bag of chips,

01:37:17.080 | or a bunch of chocolate bars,

01:37:21.720 | and then I go and have a workout,

01:37:25.000 | my workout will be incredible.

01:37:27.440 | It'll be incredible.

01:37:30.320 | There's something about easily processed carbohydrates

01:37:35.240 | that will continue to quickly get into your blood

01:37:40.240 | as fast as you can burn it.

01:37:42.840 | And there's something about that that,

01:37:46.020 | well, it gives you incredible blood flow, yeah.

01:37:50.580 | - And also your mind plugging in, enjoying that.

01:37:54.040 | - Right.

01:37:54.920 | - And then believing it works,

01:37:56.380 | and that's how it makes it work better.

01:37:58.600 | - Exactly.

01:37:59.440 | I mean, I feel that way.

01:38:01.160 | I think this is really not,

01:38:03.280 | this has been frustrating to me about the health culture

01:38:05.780 | in the United States, in the studies that are done.

01:38:09.900 | You know, you look at like the importance of sleep,

01:38:12.120 | the importance of X diet, all those kinds of things.

01:38:16.080 | I wish incorporated into that would be

01:38:19.380 | your mental relationship with all these things.

01:38:22.460 | So for example, people that tell me,

01:38:23.880 | "Well, your sleep schedule is insane."

01:38:26.520 | Yes, perhaps, but also it's insane

01:38:31.280 | because I'm doing what I love

01:38:32.680 | and I don't see it as a problem.

01:38:34.360 | - Right.

01:38:35.200 | - And I think that's really important to understand.

01:38:38.840 | If you're, if you sleeping crazy hours

01:38:43.200 | is not affecting your stress

01:38:47.000 | and is actually making you happy

01:38:48.960 | or you're drawing some kind of source of happiness

01:38:51.920 | and pleasure and satisfaction,

01:38:53.120 | like being awake when others aren't.

01:38:54.900 | It's like the Mike Tyson thing or something,

01:38:57.560 | like training when you've convinced yourself

01:39:00.200 | everybody's sleeping and therefore

01:39:01.680 | you're somehow training much better.

01:39:03.920 | - Right.

01:39:04.760 | - That's powerful even if you look statistically

01:39:07.780 | six hours may be worse than eight hours

01:39:10.120 | or four hours may be worse than six hours.

01:39:12.360 | So the mind is a powerful thing.

01:39:14.480 | - Super powerful.

01:39:16.240 | But if you wanna be a super heavyweight, eat.

01:39:18.520 | You gotta eat like stupid amounts all the time.

01:39:22.860 | - Yeah, you have to test your digestive system.

01:39:25.360 | - What's your favorite meal, by the way?

01:39:26.560 | Just if you had to, you know, it's your last meal.

01:39:29.800 | - I am, I do, oh geez, I like so much food, it's tough.

01:39:34.800 | But I'd say the food that I rely on a lot

01:39:37.720 | when I'm getting ready to compete is sushi.

01:39:41.040 | Just because it normally comes in an all you can eat format.

01:39:43.840 | (laughing)

01:39:44.680 | You know, so, you know, I love to go and just binge

01:39:48.520 | all you can eat, all you can eat buffets.

01:39:50.720 | Sushi is just super convenient.

01:39:52.440 | - Yeah.

01:39:53.760 | - If I was a sushi all you can eat buffet place,

01:39:56.200 | I'd be terrified when I saw you.

01:39:57.800 | Have you had barbecue at Texas?

01:40:01.080 | - Yeah, I love it, I love it, yeah.

01:40:03.640 | - So you, just a small tangent on this,

01:40:06.060 | you faced the mountain, how for,

01:40:09.760 | be honest, well first of all, you arm wrestled them.

01:40:12.520 | It's interesting to ask, so this is the mountain

01:40:15.360 | from the Game of Thrones, strong man,

01:40:18.580 | one of the strongest people in the world,

01:40:20.000 | for a time, the strongest person in the world.

01:40:22.000 | What was it like, I know sort of,

01:40:24.560 | you guys maybe weren't going 1000%, but what's it like?

01:40:28.520 | - Well he probably wasn't going 1000%.

01:40:30.840 | (laughing)

01:40:31.680 | - Yeah, but like what, it's interesting to think,

01:40:34.960 | what does that strength feel like?

01:40:36.840 | So it's a specialized strength in another sport.

01:40:41.120 | - Yeah.

01:40:41.960 | - What did it feel like?

01:40:42.880 | What, how strong was he?

01:40:46.120 | What are some kind of deep insights

01:40:48.600 | you've drawn from that battle?

01:40:50.660 | - I feel like if we were to go back 1000 years,

01:40:55.400 | and if you give him armor and a two-handed sword,

01:41:00.400 | he will just rip across the landscape.

01:41:03.960 | (laughing)

01:41:04.920 | And no one will stop him.

01:41:06.520 | - So this is the boxing match you came to,

01:41:08.100 | but there's also a video of them arm wrestling.

01:41:10.820 | - Yeah, what a titan though, what a titan.

01:41:14.800 | You know, a guy like that, tall,

01:41:18.780 | strong, fit, disciplined.

01:41:21.420 | I mean, he is quite a warrior.

01:41:24.180 | - 419 pounds.

01:41:25.980 | - Yeah, yeah, he's incredibly impressive.

01:41:29.820 | I really like Hap Thor, and I like Eddie Hall too.

01:41:34.220 | And I was just so, I'm just so caught up with the drama.

01:41:38.580 | Okay, so Eddie Hall and Hap Thor Bjornsson,

01:41:42.860 | two of the strongest, legendary strongmen that we have.

01:41:48.220 | And they were the coolest,

01:41:49.680 | they were the top when strongman was really super cool.

01:41:52.540 | I don't know all the details,

01:41:56.680 | but they legit hit each other.

01:41:58.480 | (laughing)

01:41:59.380 | Like legit.

01:42:00.560 | So I think it kind of stems, I don't know,

01:42:02.920 | like I say, I'm not right there with them,

01:42:05.520 | but Eddie won the World's Strongest Man event

01:42:10.520 | or something one year.

01:42:12.240 | And the thing is, it was one of those victories

01:42:15.400 | where Hap Thor was not accepting of his defeat.

01:42:20.080 | Okay, and there was a little bit of back and forth.

01:42:22.000 | Basically, from what I understand,

01:42:23.120 | they were gonna fight like the knight

01:42:25.060 | of the World's Strongest Man.

01:42:27.220 | And they got kind of got pulled apart.

01:42:29.180 | And this heat between them got translated

01:42:33.460 | into a potential boxing match.

01:42:35.660 | So it's very real.

01:42:37.140 | It's a very real fight.

01:42:38.280 | So you have the two strongest dudes on the planet

01:42:41.540 | are gonna fight each other.

01:42:43.460 | So I've been like, 'cause arm wrestling and strongman,

01:42:47.000 | it's kind of similar communities.

01:42:48.640 | - Who do you got?

01:42:50.600 | If you were giving me financial advice--

01:42:53.920 | - Oh, Jesus.

01:42:55.360 | I am so bad.

01:42:56.560 | I always call it wrong.

01:42:57.760 | They're very different.

01:42:59.520 | I see Hap Thor as being--

01:43:03.440 | - More Eddie Hall slimming down?

01:43:04.840 | Is that what you mean as well?

01:43:06.320 | - I see Hap Thor as a bit more regimented,

01:43:10.000 | but I see Eddie Hall as like way more barbaric.

01:43:13.740 | And like, I think he's a little bit more athletic,

01:43:17.700 | but Hap Thor is bigger.

01:43:19.460 | And, you know, they've chosen slightly different

01:43:22.460 | paths to prepare for the match.

01:43:24.300 | But what happened was like, they were about to fight

01:43:27.340 | and Eddie Hall blew his bicep.

01:43:30.060 | So me, I was getting ready for LaVon in December.

01:43:34.300 | We were supposed to arm wrestle in December,

01:43:36.260 | but he's got his movie.

01:43:38.640 | And so I was like, okay, I can kind of get away

01:43:40.680 | from the sport just a little bit, broaden my base.

01:43:43.640 | That happened and I was like, oh, an opportunity.

01:43:47.160 | - You stepped in.

01:43:48.000 | - An opportunity to fight.

01:43:49.400 | I'm like, I'll do it.

01:43:50.920 | - How much training?

01:43:51.760 | You trained a little bit.

01:43:54.100 | So can you tell about your own decision to do that?

01:43:56.740 | What was the training like?

01:43:57.700 | What was the experience like?

01:43:58.540 | - Yeah, oh, it was so much fun.

01:44:00.000 | It was so much fun.

01:44:01.660 | So basically I made a funny video

01:44:05.580 | and I sent it to the organizers of Core Sports

01:44:08.700 | that I would do it.

01:44:09.720 | I'm like, I'll do it.

01:44:10.560 | I'm sure they got a thousand people who wanted to do it.

01:44:13.840 | But I'm like, listen, I'm an old man.

01:44:16.920 | Like I'm gimped up like everywhere

01:44:18.960 | outside the arm wrestling lanes.

01:44:20.540 | I said, but I will 100%, like if you let me fight him,

01:44:25.160 | I'll give it my all.

01:44:26.660 | And whatever, they didn't get back to me.

01:44:29.560 | They're like, yeah, whatever, okay.

01:44:30.640 | So then they call me on a Friday,

01:44:33.540 | like five weeks before the event.

01:44:37.040 | And they're like, hey, Davin, were you serious?

01:44:40.000 | And I'm like, oh shit.

01:44:41.260 | (laughing)

01:44:43.840 | And I'm like, yes, I was serious.

01:44:46.480 | Yeah, I'll do it.

01:44:47.580 | And they're like, okay.

01:44:48.720 | They're like, it's down to you and like two other people.

01:44:54.400 | We'll get back to you in a day or two.

01:44:56.280 | But you would do it.

01:44:57.480 | And I'm like, okay.

01:44:58.300 | So they got back to me on Sunday.

01:44:59.800 | So right away I'm like skipping rope

01:45:03.200 | and I'm like, I only arm wrestle legs.

01:45:06.560 | That's all I do.

01:45:07.640 | - So what was your, you did some striking training.

01:45:10.560 | - Yeah, so I went to this guy that,

01:45:13.480 | he was awesome, Zach Ben Bushida there.

01:45:17.420 | That was it, from TriStar.

01:45:19.560 | Do you know Firas Tahabi?

01:45:21.120 | - And yes, people in the comments,

01:45:23.960 | I will interview him on this podcast.

01:45:26.680 | - He's brilliant, right?

01:45:28.320 | He's an incredible guy.

01:45:29.720 | So right away, like I had no idea

01:45:31.440 | about the fight community across Canada really.

01:45:33.880 | And I got like, by the fifth message that said,

01:45:37.920 | you must train with Firas.

01:45:40.360 | I was like, okay, called him up.

01:45:42.240 | He was incredible right away.

01:45:43.480 | He's like, yeah, you can come and we'll just work with you.

01:45:46.120 | So I got the call.

01:45:48.540 | I called him on like Monday at two o'clock.

01:45:52.040 | By like seven o'clock, I had my things packed

01:45:54.800 | and I went to Montreal and I spent four weeks

01:45:58.520 | in the fighter dorms.

01:46:00.160 | - Just humbling yourself.

01:46:01.280 | - Yeah, every day, just getting punched in the face,

01:46:04.840 | over and over, going for runs with all,

01:46:10.320 | like they're all like Olympians and pro fighters

01:46:12.120 | living in the dorms, super cool dudes.

01:46:14.000 | They were so good to me.

01:46:15.240 | - Yeah, there's a good video of you and Firas just talking.

01:46:19.240 | Yeah, I don't remember which stage this was,

01:46:21.640 | but basically-- - This is early.

01:46:23.200 | - But you were already beginning to get humbled.

01:46:25.480 | - Oh man, I knew, I mean, I knew what I was getting into.

01:46:28.720 | Like I knew it was gonna be a losing battle,

01:46:32.040 | but I felt like the opportunity to fight Thor,

01:46:35.360 | like how cool is that?

01:46:37.160 | Like I had to say, I had to do it.

01:46:40.400 | I love the process and I learned a lot from doing it.

01:46:46.560 | Like the dorms, I wanna do something like that

01:46:49.240 | with arm wrestling.

01:46:50.080 | I think we're big enough now that we can have these kind of

01:46:53.120 | dorms, frat houses, whatever you wanna call it.

01:46:56.680 | - What's the dorm like?

01:46:57.860 | So you're basically staying there, food is there.

01:47:00.720 | So you mentioned, what was the word you used,

01:47:03.760 | administration?

01:47:04.600 | - Yeah, exactly, that's it.

01:47:06.240 | - So it removes all of that.

01:47:07.440 | - Makes it so simple.

01:47:08.480 | - You can just focus.

01:47:09.320 | - You know, the gym is here, you live here.

01:47:12.000 | That your life becomes simple.

01:47:15.260 | - So there's a guy named Jimmy Pedro here in America.

01:47:19.000 | He's a famous coach, there's a place up in Boston.

01:47:21.720 | He has kind of a dorm like that too.

01:47:24.700 | That becomes essential when the community is small

01:47:28.740 | but you're trying to do epic things

01:47:31.300 | like win an Olympic gold.

01:47:33.140 | So you have to really put the people together

01:47:35.940 | in these kind of minimalist conditions

01:47:37.780 | when they just focus on the training, focus, focus, focus.

01:47:40.740 | - Yeah, it wasn't enough time.

01:47:43.820 | I mean, I trained for about three or four weeks.

01:47:46.760 | But I love the journey.

01:47:49.500 | - What are some of the fun things you enjoyed?

01:47:52.060 | So you did mostly striking.

01:47:53.180 | Did you, yeah, I guess it was--

01:47:55.060 | - Yeah, it was boxing.

01:47:55.900 | - It was straight up boxing.

01:47:57.980 | What are some things that were transferable?

01:47:59.900 | What are some cool things you learned from that?

01:48:02.300 | So from the world of armor, have you taken anything back?

01:48:05.220 | Like some training regimens, ideas about training,

01:48:09.020 | even just movements?

01:48:11.240 | 'Cause for us it's a unique mind as well for training.

01:48:17.420 | - Yeah, I don't know.

01:48:19.580 | I mean, I've gone very far down the path of arm wrestling.

01:48:23.860 | Boxing and arm wrestling are very different.

01:48:27.860 | They're very different sports.

01:48:30.080 | The physicality required is very different.

01:48:35.500 | The mentality, I mean, it's fighting.

01:48:39.060 | So it's another form of fighting, which is cool.

01:48:41.180 | The big things that I took back from it,

01:48:44.420 | the things that I loved about it was I had to run again.

01:48:48.780 | - So really work on endurance.

01:48:51.220 | - Yeah, yeah, I was going for runs with guys in the dorms

01:48:54.540 | and they would just destroy me.

01:48:57.940 | Just like, it was so bad.

01:49:00.940 | - Did you, like how did you feel in the actual boxing

01:49:06.340 | in terms of endurance?

01:49:08.420 | Were you able to--

01:49:09.260 | - No, no.

01:49:11.220 | - It's just torture.

01:49:12.060 | - It was terrible.

01:49:13.540 | And the thing is, is it was so crazy for me

01:49:16.340 | because I really was good once upon a time.

01:49:19.700 | I really was, like physically,

01:49:21.260 | like I had incredible full body endurance,

01:49:24.500 | but being so specialized, I realized how much I had slipped.

01:49:30.740 | And yeah, it was fun to try and regain.

01:49:34.380 | I think it's affected my body composition.

01:49:37.060 | I think since that training, I've become much more lean.

01:49:39.820 | I think it was a very healthy thing for me to do,

01:49:43.300 | like health-wise.

01:49:44.780 | I always think that when you're far away from competition,

01:49:47.620 | it's really good to kind of spread out, really good.

01:49:50.340 | So I think that in that way--

01:49:51.900 | - Also for your mind too.

01:49:52.940 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:49:53.780 | - Just like, yeah.

01:49:56.860 | Yeah, so something about clearing your,

01:49:59.520 | I think you've talked about this,

01:50:02.100 | it's like you're basically taking steps back

01:50:06.300 | before you take steps forward.

01:50:07.580 | It's, I forget how you call it.

01:50:09.020 | - Yeah, the wave.

01:50:09.860 | - Yeah.

01:50:10.700 | - Yeah, under, you have to go under.

01:50:13.180 | You got to.

01:50:14.620 | If you want to go above the line,

01:50:16.260 | you have to spend some time beneath it.

01:50:18.540 | And yeah, I was definitely beneath the line

01:50:20.260 | for a long time.

01:50:21.100 | (laughing)

01:50:22.620 | But Mountain, I mean, the interesting thing was

01:50:26.900 | as incredible as he is,

01:50:29.140 | what a monster.

01:50:32.940 | And I think if you had had him training in boxing

01:50:37.620 | for a long time and from his youth,

01:50:40.220 | I think the guy could be world champion.

01:50:42.980 | But to be so specialized and then to switch,

01:50:46.500 | you're at a disadvantage.

01:50:48.260 | And also, I know from just fighting guys

01:50:52.940 | in the gym in TriStar,

01:50:55.540 | some of those guys were way scarier.

01:50:57.860 | For real.

01:50:58.700 | Like as scary as Thor is,

01:51:01.460 | there's guys in that TriStar gym

01:51:03.700 | that don't look like anything,

01:51:05.820 | that would murder me, much worse.

01:51:09.340 | Much worse.

01:51:10.340 | - Yeah, but also, that's the difference

01:51:12.660 | between being in the gym and under the lights too.

01:51:15.060 | I mean, GSB is an example,

01:51:17.180 | George St. Pierre is an example,

01:51:18.360 | somebody that maybe doesn't look terrifying.

01:51:21.780 | - He's at a TriStar.

01:51:22.620 | - Yep, he trains at TriStar,

01:51:24.380 | but he's super nice, super humble,

01:51:29.200 | but is terrifying when he's fighting.

01:51:31.260 | - Right.

01:51:32.100 | - Is dominating people.

01:51:33.580 | You mentioned death.

01:51:36.460 | - Yeah.

01:51:37.300 | - And your Canadian special forces,

01:51:39.700 | and in general, thinking about mortality.

01:51:42.260 | - Yeah.

01:51:43.100 | - Do you think about your death?

01:51:44.380 | Do you contemplate the end,

01:51:48.260 | that this thing, that this ride ends?

01:51:50.620 | - All the time, yeah.

01:51:52.020 | From, I've thought about death from a young age.

01:51:55.420 | - Are you afraid of it?

01:51:56.780 | - Yeah, I hate it.

01:51:58.060 | Yeah, I don't wanna die.

01:51:59.380 | Yeah, definitely don't wanna die,

01:52:01.420 | but there's times when I can rid myself of it, yeah.

01:52:06.120 | But for sure, I mean, I'm not happy

01:52:10.540 | that death is inevitable,

01:52:13.540 | and I'm not happy that potentially

01:52:16.300 | it's inevitable for all of us.

01:52:18.100 | But it does, I like to fight against it.

01:52:24.260 | - Does it?

01:52:26.220 | - Yeah, death is--

01:52:27.060 | - If you could be immortal, would you choose to?

01:52:28.980 | - That's my only wish.

01:52:30.760 | - Oh, see, but here's the thing.

01:52:32.780 | But the point is to have that wish.

01:52:35.220 | It's like the all-you-can-eat buffet at sushi.

01:52:40.260 | It's that sushi's more delicious if you have a limit.

01:52:44.020 | - Do you have a, oh, well.

01:52:45.940 | - I don't know.

01:52:47.260 | (laughing)

01:52:48.100 | - I mean, I don't think I get sick of stuff.

01:52:49.540 | I'm very simple.

01:52:50.860 | Yeah, I don't think I would get tired of it.

01:52:52.540 | I really don't.

01:52:53.980 | I mean, if someone would pose it to you,

01:52:56.220 | do you wanna live forever, you would choose no?

01:52:59.340 | - Yeah, I would choose no.

01:53:00.440 | - Choose no.

01:53:01.280 | - Well, my answer's probably yes.

01:53:03.280 | Like, no, I would, it's more like the snooze button.

01:53:09.780 | - Do you wanna?

01:53:10.620 | - Well, you could go to sleep.

01:53:12.460 | - But it's very difficult in the moment to go to sleep.

01:53:16.020 | But if I'm allowed to live forever,

01:53:20.200 | I'm going to delay all the crazy,

01:53:26.140 | like all the ambitious goals, all the,

01:53:29.960 | because there's always time.

01:53:31.540 | - That's fine, but there is tomorrow then.

01:53:33.340 | - But there is tomorrow.

01:53:34.200 | But see, I think that takes away from the richness of,

01:53:37.740 | like the richness of the lived experience

01:53:41.380 | of just each moment.

01:53:42.700 | I think the richness of each moment comes from saying,

01:53:46.140 | like, I could die tonight.

01:53:48.380 | Like, it tastes delicious because you're going to die.

01:53:51.860 | I'm afraid if you're not, I'm afraid all of that goes away.

01:53:55.820 | All of that magic goes away if you can live forever.

01:53:58.860 | I don't know.

01:53:59.700 | (laughing)

01:54:00.940 | But I'll tell you, every time I have a near-death experience

01:54:05.180 | or think I'm gonna die,

01:54:06.220 | I definitely live better afterwards.

01:54:08.300 | Yeah.

01:54:09.140 | Like, it's always been that way, but yeah, no.

01:54:14.140 | - That's why the Stoics, you know,

01:54:15.820 | they really preach contemplating your mortality often.

01:54:19.180 | It kind of reminds you,

01:54:21.580 | this whole thing could just end any moment

01:54:23.580 | and it makes you really appreciate.

01:54:25.860 | Yeah, I don't know.

01:54:27.820 | I don't know.

01:54:28.980 | Certainly improving the quality of life is important,

01:54:34.500 | but part of me thinks that immortality

01:54:39.300 | is not as fun as we would like to imagine.

01:54:43.500 | - Do you think that maybe you're,

01:54:45.780 | in what you're building, potentially is immortal?

01:54:50.100 | - Well, that's what I definitely think about with robots.

01:54:54.600 | If they were to have a human-like experience

01:55:00.020 | and be able to interact with humans

01:55:01.660 | in a deep, meaningful way,

01:55:03.420 | I think they too have to be mortal

01:55:05.540 | in some fundamental way that means mortal.

01:55:08.380 | Like, their ride has to end as well

01:55:10.940 | because they won't be able to interact with humans deeply

01:55:15.260 | unless that's the case.

01:55:16.980 | Like, to have fear, to have love,

01:55:23.340 | the ability to suffer, the ability to miss somebody,

01:55:28.680 | I think scarcity is important.

01:55:32.780 | You have to be able to truly lose somebody.

01:55:36.620 | You have to be, to fear things,

01:55:38.420 | you have to truly have the risk of destroying yourself.

01:55:43.140 | And to have a sense of what it means to be a self,

01:55:46.400 | you have to be able to lose it.

01:55:51.060 | So if you're immortal, you're just going to be,

01:55:53.900 | I feel like you're going to be like a toaster,

01:55:57.980 | an intelligent toaster that just serves.

01:56:00.740 | - Such a negative perspective on it.

01:56:03.140 | - On immortality?

01:56:04.060 | - Yeah, just think, well, now you can get

01:56:06.780 | all those things done that you want to do.

01:56:08.500 | - I hope you're right, I hope you're right.

01:56:10.700 | - Yeah, I mean, potentially, you could invest even harder

01:56:14.260 | because you're like, wow, I'm actually gonna be able

01:56:16.060 | to get all this stuff done.

01:56:17.500 | - I think about this a lot.

01:56:19.460 | I hope you're right, but I fear that the drive to create,

01:56:24.460 | I can even do more, all of that disappears

01:56:29.580 | if you have all the time in the world.

01:56:31.420 | I just know how lazy I am.

01:56:33.500 | And if I have all the time in the world,

01:56:35.260 | I'm just gonna sit there and just watch

01:56:39.180 | the stupidest YouTube videos for the rest of all eternity.

01:56:43.380 | - Now, eternity's a long time.

01:56:46.320 | - Eat Doritos and Cheetos and just get fatter and fatter.

01:56:50.400 | I can get in shape later, there's always time.

01:56:53.660 | - That's like a long period of contemplation.

01:56:56.140 | - Yeah. (laughs)

01:56:57.740 | So for the first thousand years,

01:56:59.540 | it'll be the Dorito period of the Lex life.

01:57:02.540 | - Yeah, you could be like Jabba the Hutt for a thousand years.

01:57:06.620 | - You mentioned aliens, very important topic.

01:57:09.140 | Do you actually think about this?

01:57:11.260 | There's been an increased interest,

01:57:13.900 | there's been increased UFO sightings and encounters,

01:57:18.380 | all that kind of stuff, the US government

01:57:20.500 | at least releasing data, releasing videos of pilots,

01:57:26.980 | pilot observations and from airplanes of UFOs.

01:57:30.220 | Do you think about this kind of stuff?

01:57:31.900 | 'Cause you mentioned in the following context,

01:57:33.940 | you mentioned like us humans will get our shit together

01:57:37.660 | when the aliens eventually come.

01:57:39.400 | What do you make of all the sightings?

01:57:43.900 | Is that something you think about?

01:57:45.780 | - I thought about it a lot when I was younger.

01:57:48.900 | And I've just, I made my conclusions and yeah,

01:57:52.180 | I don't think that there's a possibility

01:57:54.180 | that there aren't aliens.

01:57:55.440 | I would think it would be impossible

01:57:57.180 | for there not to be aliens.

01:57:58.580 | I feel like this is pretty good real estate.

01:58:03.900 | So, you probably want it, but we already might be,

01:58:08.900 | well, I don't even think might.

01:58:10.180 | I mean, it's probably quite likely

01:58:11.700 | that we are to some degree aliens.

01:58:13.660 | I mean, all life is probably to some degree alien.

01:58:16.940 | - I like the real estate, so the resources,

01:58:18.960 | but we're also kind of interesting.

01:58:20.860 | - Yeah.

01:58:21.700 | - Whatever this ant colony of living organisms

01:58:24.240 | that we've created, it's kind of interesting to study.

01:58:27.180 | I tend to believe that the alien civilizations

01:58:29.580 | that are going to reach us or have reached us

01:58:33.700 | are far more intelligent,

01:58:35.240 | just orders of magnitude more intelligent than us.

01:58:39.220 | And so it's going to be very difficult,

01:58:40.700 | both ways actually, for us to understand them

01:58:43.140 | and for them to dumb themselves down enough

01:58:46.340 | to understand us.

01:58:47.540 | - Yeah, probably.

01:58:48.380 | - So, they might even just miss our existence altogether

01:58:52.980 | just 'cause I tend to believe, I don't know what you think,

01:58:57.040 | that we're not that special

01:58:59.320 | in terms of all the life forms in the universe.

01:59:02.800 | There's a lot of cool stuff out there.

01:59:04.560 | - Has to be, has to be.

01:59:06.880 | - But to us, we're special.

01:59:08.520 | - Yeah, well, that's all that matters, right?

01:59:10.480 | - Yeah.

01:59:11.360 | Even the human species is the most special to us humans.

01:59:14.680 | There could be much more special species here on Earth

01:59:18.360 | that we're just totally oblivious to,

01:59:20.160 | like trees on a scale of thousands of years.

01:59:23.120 | Maybe they're onto something.

01:59:25.600 | - Lex, you know, I think that so much

01:59:31.660 | of what makes a person special is what they pass on,

01:59:36.580 | your kids, but I think that you are quite special

01:59:39.760 | because you're part of this thing

01:59:42.420 | that's potentially giving birth to the next thing.

01:59:45.720 | - The robots.

01:59:48.580 | - The robots.

01:59:49.400 | - I should say, the funny thing is,

01:59:50.960 | while talking to Devin, during this podcast,

01:59:53.860 | I wear the doorbell ring, had to go downstairs,

01:59:57.600 | and there was a big box, (laughs)

02:00:01.540 | medicine box with a new-legged robot.

02:00:04.420 | So the hilarity of you saying that is,

02:00:07.580 | 'cause that robot is actually going to likely be

02:00:11.100 | the main robot that I show to the world

02:00:14.300 | in the coming months, 'cause that has the,

02:00:17.580 | that's the highest compute level in that robot.

02:00:19.980 | So I've been playing a lot with legged robots,

02:00:22.720 | the four legs, like a dog.

02:00:26.620 | I like all robots, but there's something about

02:00:32.100 | when a robot has legs, it's able to communicate,

02:00:34.920 | it's able to connect with humans in some kind of deep way,

02:00:38.320 | in the way a dog can, just show affection.

02:00:40.900 | Something about step, step, step, step,

02:00:43.740 | and then the robot realizes you're here,

02:00:46.220 | and then it steps and then notices you

02:00:48.500 | in the way the dog does and raises its head.

02:00:51.340 | It makes me feel noticed and heard

02:00:56.500 | in the same way I do when a dog notices me.

02:00:59.740 | That excitement, that stupid excitement of like,

02:01:02.500 | yes, fellow living organism.

02:01:05.700 | And what excites me about legged robots

02:01:09.340 | is that holy shit, it's possible to engineer this.

02:01:13.260 | It's possible to create that feeling.

02:01:15.460 | And I wonder where that can go.

02:01:17.220 | There's a lot of negative possible trajectories,

02:01:20.280 | but I have a sense that there's positive ones too.

02:01:23.020 | - You think that they'll take us with them?

02:01:25.500 | - Yeah, I think so, because I,

02:01:29.940 | so there's this fear of robots

02:01:33.120 | that they become super intelligent

02:01:34.880 | and run away from us humans,

02:01:36.200 | and basically become so intelligent,

02:01:38.840 | and then they almost, just not giving a damn,

02:01:42.300 | will destroy us.

02:01:44.540 | But I think in order for robots to become intelligent,

02:01:48.180 | they have to integrate themselves with society.

02:01:51.300 | So they, by the very nature of how they become intelligent,

02:01:56.300 | have to bring us along.

02:01:58.940 | So it's not that there'll be this separate thing.

02:02:02.620 | They have to, like we'll have robots in the home,

02:02:05.900 | where they'll be interacting with us.

02:02:07.440 | You have human kids, and you have a bunch of robots,

02:02:10.700 | you have robot friends, you have human friends.

02:02:12.940 | And the robots make your human to human relationships

02:02:16.340 | much more meaningful and richer.

02:02:18.160 | They bring more love to the world, but it's integrated.

02:02:20.980 | It's not like they'll be developing smarter and smarter

02:02:24.460 | as sentient beings by themselves.

02:02:30.420 | I think that's very difficult to do.

02:02:32.420 | You have to be doing that together with humans,

02:02:34.500 | and so we'll come for the ride.

02:02:35.880 | There's technical things,

02:02:37.680 | like we might merge like cyborgs more and more.

02:02:41.500 | - Well, we already saw our cyborgs, right?

02:02:43.400 | - With the phones and so on, but more and more.

02:02:46.420 | So with Elon and Neuralink, deeper integration of robots

02:02:50.860 | and AI into, increasing the bandwidth

02:02:55.380 | at which they can communicate.

02:02:56.940 | So if we do implants in the brain,

02:02:58.700 | I think, again, a lot of people are really nervous

02:03:04.580 | about this as am I, but I think there's a lot

02:03:07.620 | of trajectories that are positive there.

02:03:10.780 | That to me is exciting.

02:03:11.700 | And also, I just don't think it's possible

02:03:13.580 | to stop this development, so we should steer it.

02:03:18.060 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:03:20.060 | - For good.

02:03:20.900 | - Did you, I mean, you must've watched

02:03:22.460 | the movie "Terminator," right?

02:03:23.660 | - Yeah, of course, I love "Terminator."

02:03:25.220 | - Yeah.

02:03:26.060 | - I love Schwarzenegger.

02:03:26.880 | - My favorite movie of all time.

02:03:28.720 | Yeah, yeah.

02:03:30.220 | I mean, that's the big fear, right?

02:03:32.180 | - Yeah, what's the conclusion with "Terminator?"

02:03:37.060 | Isn't ultimately humanity wins?

02:03:39.260 | - I think they're at like "Terminator 8" now.

02:03:41.220 | - Yeah.

02:03:42.060 | - You know, I don't know.

02:03:43.180 | - Yeah, so it's interesting, actually,

02:03:48.300 | I was gonna bring this up as you were talking about it,

02:03:50.200 | but China and the United States,

02:03:53.820 | I actually don't know where Canada is on this,

02:03:56.340 | but they both have agreed that they're not going

02:04:00.160 | to put limits on autonomous weapon system development.

02:04:04.540 | - They're not going to.

02:04:05.380 | - They're not going to.

02:04:06.620 | So because China said we're not going to,

02:04:08.500 | and now US officially announced that we're not, we can't.

02:04:12.820 | - Well, you can't.

02:04:14.020 | It's like, you never could, right?

02:04:16.940 | As soon as it exists and it's better, people will use it.

02:04:20.780 | - Well, but there's been a global ban on bioweapons.

02:04:25.780 | So you were able to come to an agreement there

02:04:28.860 | that we're not going to use biological weapons in war.

02:04:32.340 | So a lot of people are really upset

02:04:34.980 | that in the case of AI-driven weapons,

02:04:39.540 | the world said, nope, that's okay.

02:04:42.300 | And so now you have this potential

02:04:45.140 | for greater and greater automation in drones,

02:04:48.100 | for example, in picking bombing locations,

02:04:51.380 | and so the area at which they attack.

02:04:54.540 | And so you get some of that stuff that you mentioned

02:04:57.580 | that drew you to the military

02:05:02.500 | is that teamwork between humans,

02:05:04.700 | that decision-making.

02:05:05.860 | So there's strategy, but built into that team

02:05:10.220 | is a deep humanity.

02:05:12.460 | Even when there's an enemy,

02:05:16.140 | there's lines that you are aware of,

02:05:18.980 | of what is ethical and what is not,

02:05:20.780 | what is just and what is not.

02:05:23.060 | And it's so easy for a machine to miss all of that,

02:05:28.060 | plow through it and do deeply inhumane acts,

02:05:33.260 | commit atrocities.

02:05:34.820 | That's something that worries a lot of people.

02:05:38.780 | 'Cause, yeah, an AI-based war is just, it's terrifying,

02:05:45.780 | especially with cybersecurity,

02:05:47.460 | which is becoming more and more of an issue,

02:05:49.660 | which is hacking.

02:05:50.740 | Sort of people that look a lot like me

02:05:56.900 | being the warriors of the future,

02:05:59.980 | which is meaning people behind a keyboard

02:06:03.420 | versus the traditional warriors.

02:06:07.460 | - Probably inevitable.

02:06:09.540 | Yeah.

02:06:12.100 | - And terrifying.

02:06:13.020 | - It is, it is.

02:06:14.660 | But I think if you believe that it's possible,

02:06:18.020 | it's certainly gonna happen.

02:06:19.540 | Like, at some point, it's just when, right?

02:06:22.460 | When does it happen?

02:06:24.380 | - So that, I mean, to me,

02:06:25.660 | I'm ultimately optimistic about the future,

02:06:29.100 | and to me, I'm excited about the world with AI.

02:06:31.700 | I'm even excited about the metaverse

02:06:34.980 | and all these kinds of things,

02:06:36.500 | living more and more in the digital space,

02:06:38.700 | in the virtual reality.

02:06:39.960 | I think, so it's a part of me that grew up

02:06:43.260 | in the non-internet world, non-computer world.

02:06:45.540 | It says, "Oh, kids these days with their video games."

02:06:49.740 | There's part of me that's like that.

02:06:52.340 | But I think what's, technology at its best

02:06:56.940 | can bring out the best of humanity.

02:06:59.860 | And so I think virtual reality, all of these things,

02:07:03.140 | over time, we'll figure out how to fix it

02:07:06.740 | to bring out the humanity.

02:07:08.100 | Social networks, the first generation social networks,

02:07:12.100 | now Facebook, Twitter, and so on,

02:07:13.660 | they have so many problems.

02:07:15.020 | They're bringing out the worst in people.

02:07:17.100 | But I think we're learning from that,

02:07:18.620 | and I think the next generation of social networks

02:07:20.580 | will be better and better and better.

02:07:22.380 | And so I'm optimistic.

02:07:26.020 | But of course, one reason we may have not seen aliens yet,

02:07:30.940 | obviously, like in a way that's obvious,

02:07:34.180 | is because once you get clever and smart

02:07:36.980 | and have all this cool technology, you destroy yourself.

02:07:40.220 | And we sure as humans are pretty close to that.

02:07:42.980 | - Yeah, yeah, there might be that limit

02:07:45.060 | that is hard to get right.

02:07:46.940 | - I'm hoping we get all our aggression between nations out

02:07:49.860 | through arm wrestling competition.

02:07:52.380 | - Right?

02:07:53.340 | - Just all of that.

02:07:54.740 | - Oh my God, wouldn't that be great if it was that simple?

02:07:58.620 | Yeah.

02:07:59.460 | - Do you know if there's another over-the-top type movie

02:08:01.540 | to be made?

02:08:02.380 | - Oh yeah, yeah, there's always stuff in the works.

02:08:04.820 | There's actually a tournament called Over the Top

02:08:07.740 | in Australia that's a couple months away.

02:08:09.860 | I think they're doing an all-the-over-top scene.

02:08:11.700 | But there are arm wrestling movies

02:08:13.940 | that are being made right now.

02:08:14.980 | Actually, there's a documentary that's filming me

02:08:17.900 | for this whole LaVon thing.

02:08:19.620 | But yeah, we're probably due for another big one.

02:08:23.900 | - But you're also, just with your YouTube channel,

02:08:26.340 | you're doing a lot for the sport.

02:08:27.540 | That's really cool to see.

02:08:28.540 | Just being genuine, but just being like,

02:08:31.400 | looking not like you're looking today,

02:08:33.820 | but just like--

02:08:34.660 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:08:35.500 | - Just a beard.

02:08:36.340 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, normally I'm not--

02:08:37.820 | - Just like sleepy, you know,

02:08:39.780 | and just putting yourself out there completely as you are.

02:08:42.860 | That's a beautiful thing.

02:08:44.260 | - The best thing about the sport

02:08:45.460 | is it brings people together.

02:08:47.100 | That's it.

02:08:47.940 | - Yeah, the community, the folks I got to interact with,

02:08:50.220 | just so awesome.

02:08:51.820 | So excited, so full of kindness.

02:08:54.300 | I'm definitely gonna find the club here

02:08:55.940 | and start working on my arm wrestling game.

02:09:00.940 | Devin, this is such a huge honor

02:09:03.900 | that you would spend your valuable time.

02:09:07.220 | You would come down to Austin.

02:09:09.020 | You would hang out with me and do this conversation.

02:09:14.020 | - Super cool to talk to you, Lex, yeah.

02:09:16.140 | - As I mentioned, in case people, you know,

02:09:18.940 | people I'm sure will tell me.

02:09:20.940 | So I hang out with Joe Rogan all the time.

02:09:23.380 | He's a friend.

02:09:24.380 | I told him that he should talk to Devin.

02:09:25.980 | He's going through some stuff currently, you know,

02:09:29.100 | but I'm sure, I hope the conversation

02:09:31.180 | between you, Devin, and Joe happens eventually.

02:09:33.820 | That would be epic as well 'cause he's a--

02:09:37.820 | - Yeah, he loves fighting.

02:09:39.780 | - He loves fighting, he loves wrestling, he loves strength,

02:09:43.380 | and I think all of those are like so perfectly encapsulated

02:09:49.580 | in the sport of arm wrestling.

02:09:50.980 | So thank you so much for talking to me, brother.

02:09:52.620 | - Hey, thanks so much, Lex.

02:09:54.020 | (laughing)

02:09:55.820 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:09:57.340 | with Devin Larratt.

02:09:58.660 | To support this podcast,

02:09:59.980 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:10:02.860 | And now let me leave you with some words

02:10:05.060 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

02:10:07.660 | "The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight.

02:10:11.860 | And the only reason a warrior fights is to win."

02:10:16.660 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

02:10:19.780 | (upbeat music)

02:10:22.380 | (upbeat music)

02:10:24.980 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Devon Larratt: Arm Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #265

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