When Sin Fractures a Church
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | - Very perceptive question has come in
00:00:07.400 | from a podcast listener named Matt.
00:00:09.120 | He asks this, "In episode 313, Pastor John,
00:00:12.840 | "you said that there was one period
00:00:14.580 | "when 230 people left your church
00:00:17.300 | "and the church didn't grow for years after that.
00:00:20.280 | "What happened there
00:00:21.180 | "and what did you learn from the experience?"
00:00:23.480 | - Yeah, I often make clouded reference
00:00:28.920 | to that season in our church's life
00:00:30.920 | and it might be helpful to say a little more about it here
00:00:34.760 | and then just a few lessons at the end.
00:00:36.760 | This is very delicate and I must be careful
00:00:42.640 | because I suspect that people who were deeply wounded
00:00:49.160 | and deeply complicit in those events
00:00:54.900 | will listen to this podcast.
00:00:58.680 | And so I wanna start by saying,
00:01:01.640 | I don't speak out of any remnants of anger
00:01:06.240 | or vengeance that I know of.
00:01:09.600 | I mean, the heart is corrupt
00:01:10.860 | and I'm deceived often about myself,
00:01:13.280 | but as much as I know myself,
00:01:16.680 | my heart is right about this
00:01:19.340 | and I bear no one any lurking grudges.
00:01:24.300 | As much anger has there has been in the past,
00:01:27.400 | I want those who listen to this to hear that.
00:01:30.960 | I want to say to the people who listen,
00:01:33.520 | who know what I'm talking about
00:01:35.800 | and were there and were involved,
00:01:37.920 | I don't want to go to my grave
00:01:41.320 | with any bitterness or unforgiveness in my heart.
00:01:45.740 | Here's what happened.
00:01:47.580 | Two of our staff members committed adultery together
00:01:51.980 | and I was the person who discovered it.
00:01:55.860 | Only that discovery was circumstantial for several weeks.
00:02:00.860 | In other words, I couldn't prove it.
00:02:03.160 | This is a horrible position to be in.
00:02:08.880 | I was profoundly convinced it was happening.
00:02:13.880 | The close friends of the couple were horrified
00:02:20.040 | that such an accusation would be made.
00:02:24.080 | They saw it as unjust and they saw the beauty
00:02:28.360 | of our staff unity being destroyed by me.
00:02:32.480 | And even if it never would be proved
00:02:38.080 | or never could be validated,
00:02:39.900 | the staff unity would be destroyed.
00:02:41.600 | I mean, I had ruined it and believe me,
00:02:43.960 | I can understand their perspective.
00:02:47.080 | We had enjoyed something so wonderful together
00:02:50.240 | and here was John Piper making these accusations
00:02:54.440 | and undermining the very essence
00:02:58.080 | of what we had all loved for so long.
00:03:00.680 | Now that went on for several weeks
00:03:03.400 | while tensions increased, not publicly,
00:03:05.680 | the church as a whole didn't know at this moment,
00:03:07.560 | but dozens did behind the scenes.
00:03:12.560 | And then in mercy to everyone, they confessed
00:03:19.440 | to an extended season of adultery.
00:03:22.640 | And you might think that this would reverse
00:03:25.180 | everyone's feelings toward me,
00:03:28.260 | but things never worked that way.
00:03:30.760 | And for some, I was seen not as now being truthful,
00:03:35.760 | but as gloating in my vindication.
00:03:39.300 | Then the process of discipline set in,
00:03:41.820 | the elders had long and careful prayerful meetings
00:03:45.640 | and I believe we handled it in a right and biblical way.
00:03:50.440 | But whenever anything like this happens,
00:03:52.760 | there are people who are always unhappy with the process
00:03:57.760 | and the attitudes of those involved.
00:04:02.600 | And so it was disapproved in many ways.
00:04:07.080 | And from a distance of 20 years now,
00:04:12.080 | I am profoundly thankful for God's grace
00:04:16.400 | in getting us through because the two who were involved
00:04:21.040 | did not destroy their marriages.
00:04:23.480 | Their spouses were unbelievably gracious.
00:04:28.040 | There was restoration, neither couple divorced.
00:04:32.560 | They are with their original spouse.
00:04:35.260 | And to me, that is not owing to me,
00:04:38.640 | it's owing to God in his great grace
00:04:41.480 | towards all of us and I thank him for it.
00:04:44.480 | But the hurt that was caused was simply profound
00:04:49.480 | and it came from many different angles.
00:04:53.240 | Some felt the discipline wasn't handled lovingly enough.
00:04:56.840 | Some were simply crushed by a man
00:05:00.280 | that they had been helped by for so long.
00:05:03.640 | Some were angered that in the process,
00:05:07.880 | we decided not to purchase an organ
00:05:10.000 | that we were going to purchase
00:05:12.320 | and they felt that was an unnecessary fallout of this.
00:05:16.760 | They felt my attitude wasn't what it should be
00:05:20.520 | and on and on, the wounds were many.
00:05:25.120 | And that's the reason you had this 230 or so people
00:05:29.560 | who left the church.
00:05:32.400 | And as I look back,
00:05:34.520 | I don't want to claim sinlessness in my attitudes.
00:05:39.280 | I did my best.
00:05:41.600 | I feel in general that we followed the biblical guidelines
00:05:46.000 | with the right spirit, but the heart is deceitful
00:05:49.440 | and I don't want to bring about any barriers
00:05:54.440 | by claiming more than I should for myself.
00:05:58.560 | Lots of good reconciliation has happened.
00:06:01.360 | People should be encouraged.
00:06:02.800 | I mean, I have been with the people.
00:06:05.760 | Lots of counseling happened,
00:06:07.320 | lots of redemptive work happened.
00:06:10.160 | And even more recently, I have had meetings
00:06:14.040 | even to reaffirm that the air is cleared
00:06:17.920 | and we're able to face each other on the last day
00:06:22.480 | without any sense that we didn't make this right
00:06:26.440 | while we were on the earth.
00:06:28.480 | So what did I come away with?
00:06:30.560 | Let me just mention one,
00:06:35.640 | tend your heart, I'm speaking to pastors I suppose now,
00:06:38.760 | tend your heart and know the souls
00:06:41.680 | of your partners in ministry.
00:06:43.720 | Pursue anything that looks like a cooling or distancing,
00:06:48.520 | go after it.
00:06:49.840 | Number two, care for the wives of your staff
00:06:54.560 | and listen to them.
00:06:56.000 | Sometimes their intuitions are better
00:06:59.040 | than our discernments as to what might be happening
00:07:02.280 | in their spouses on staff.
00:07:04.280 | Number three, follow the Bible in discipline lovingly
00:07:09.280 | and know that the devil will distort everything.
00:07:13.560 | Number four, don't walk away in the season of winnowing.
00:07:18.440 | We didn't grow for four, well, three years.
00:07:22.880 | The fourth year became the year of turnaround.
00:07:24.640 | We didn't grow at all.
00:07:25.720 | One was a year of weeping while we just did damage control.
00:07:29.840 | One was, and healing.
00:07:33.040 | One was, two were, I would say, two years of who are we,
00:07:37.760 | identification efforts.
00:07:39.960 | And then a fourth year where God in great mercy
00:07:44.040 | lifted the hand of discipline and we took off again.
00:07:49.040 | So if I had walked away during that time,
00:07:52.080 | I have no idea what might become of Bethlehem.
00:07:55.320 | It just would not have been a thing for a father to do
00:07:58.160 | or a husband to do or a shepherd to do.
00:08:00.520 | It's not what to do when your church is wounded
00:08:03.160 | to walk away from them.
00:08:04.960 | And so don't walk away.
00:08:07.000 | - Thank you, Pastor John, for that.
00:08:08.160 | And thank you for not walking away
00:08:09.360 | from the church during that season.
00:08:11.640 | This episode was based on a question
00:08:13.640 | from podcast listener, Matt,
00:08:15.080 | after hearing episode number 313,
00:08:17.040 | marriage challenges and Christian ministry.
00:08:19.320 | That was episode number 313.
00:08:20.800 | Be sure to check that out.
00:08:22.280 | Thank you listeners for your attentiveness
00:08:24.080 | and excellent email questions like this one from Matt.
00:08:26.360 | Please continue to send those questions to us via email
00:08:29.760 | at askpastorjohn@desiringgod.org.
00:08:32.600 | Tomorrow we're back to talk about
00:08:33.880 | what a Christian couple is to do
00:08:35.640 | when the memories of past sexual mistakes
00:08:38.480 | haunt their wedding.
00:08:39.880 | Until then, I'm your host, Tony Reinke.
00:08:41.320 | Thanks for listening to the Ask Pastor John podcast.
00:08:43.920 | (upbeat music)
00:08:46.500 | (upbeat music)
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