Cal Newport's Harsh Advice For An Instant Messaging Addict

00:00:00.000 | Okay, next call is about checking her phone way too much.

00:00:06.000 | Hi, my name is Lucia.

00:00:07.640 | I'm a Spanish law student and I'm

00:00:09.940 | very thankful for your student help books.

00:00:11.980 | They have helped me a lot.

00:00:13.720 | My question is the following.

00:00:15.620 | I have gone through a digital minimalism process and deleted all my social media,

00:00:20.140 | including three Twitter accounts,

00:00:22.360 | which now sounds crazy even to me.

00:00:24.880 | But I still use instant messaging apps,

00:00:27.920 | and although I don't use them when I'm with other people,

00:00:30.920 | whenever I'm alone, I check them a lot.

00:00:33.640 | More specifically, I check them every time I pick up my phone,

00:00:37.400 | be it for meditation,

00:00:38.740 | for checking my uni scheduling,

00:00:40.680 | or time in my exercise,

00:00:42.320 | or any other reason.

00:00:43.600 | This has come to the point where I often forget what I have picked my phone for

00:00:48.120 | originally because I get too swallowed by the messaging.

00:00:53.160 | I feel like Narcissus who keeps returning to

00:00:55.940 | his reflection again and again regardless of what's better for him.

00:00:59.460 | Do you have any tips regarding this?

00:01:01.520 | Thank you so much. Rachel.

00:01:03.920 | >> Well, first of all, it's been a while since we've had a good Greek reference.

00:01:07.520 | So I appreciate that.

00:01:09.360 | That's old school deep questions, Jessie.

00:01:11.600 | Like back in the day when I would record in here,

00:01:15.520 | like in the summer, and we had no video,

00:01:18.220 | and I had the AC off.

00:01:19.500 | Even though it turns out having the AC on is not a problem

00:01:21.660 | because we have gated microphones and I'd just be in here sweating,

00:01:24.200 | just by myself during the pandemic recording podcast episodes.

00:01:27.920 | We got a little crazy with the Greek references.

00:01:30.480 | So maybe you've been a moderating influence,

00:01:32.640 | like people have emerged back into the world.

00:01:34.700 | It's a little more reasonable, but I do appreciate the Greek reference.

00:01:39.140 | So I want to apply here the digital minimalism philosophy.

00:01:43.860 | Everything you talked about was things you quit or things you got rid of.

00:01:47.880 | I'm glad you quit things and got rid of things,

00:01:49.600 | but in some sense,

00:01:50.760 | that's not what I'm mainly interested in.

00:01:52.860 | If you want to become a digital minimalist,

00:01:55.240 | what I'm interested in is your vision of the life well-lived.

00:01:58.320 | What was it that you discovered when you did

00:02:00.560 | your 30-day digital declutter that really mattered to you?

00:02:03.800 | What were the things that are important to you and your life?

00:02:07.280 | Because that should be the foundation of reconstructing your digital interactions.

00:02:12.460 | When you know what you want to spend your time on, what matters to you?

00:02:14.640 | What satisfies, we're going to use some more Greek references here,

00:02:18.840 | your Aristotelian notion of the virtuous life, of the ethical life.

00:02:25.620 | Then you can work backwards and say,

00:02:27.800 | what tech helps these things?

00:02:29.740 | If I know why I'm using these texts,

00:02:31.020 | what's the right rules to put around them?

00:02:32.900 | Now, I suspect if you go through this exercise,

00:02:37.460 | you will find because you're using these instant messenger apps a lot,

00:02:41.140 | that there's people in your life that being connected to matters to you,

00:02:44.180 | that the relationships in your life matter to you,

00:02:46.140 | that you want to be a good friend,

00:02:47.500 | you want to be a good daughter,

00:02:49.100 | you want to be a good aunt,

00:02:50.580 | like whoever these people are that you're connecting to.

00:02:52.780 | You want to sacrifice non-trivial time and attention on their behalf,

00:02:57.320 | as that is what we as humans are wired to do as social beings.

00:03:00.980 | If we're not doing that, we get unhappy, we get anxious.

00:03:04.700 | We start to worry about ourselves,

00:03:08.420 | we start to worry about our lives.

00:03:09.620 | That's probably what you would identify.

00:03:11.060 | If you identify that, you say, "Great.

00:03:12.700 | I want to build a life when I'm doing that.

00:03:14.580 | Great. What's a good way to throw tech into that picture?"

00:03:19.340 | When you ask that question,

00:03:21.780 | your answer is not going to be,

00:03:23.260 | obviously, the right use of tech to satisfy this goal is going to

00:03:26.620 | be checking instant messengers every single time I pick up my phone.

00:03:30.100 | How could that possibly be the right thing there?

00:03:32.580 | No. What's the right thing going to be?

00:03:33.940 | Well, if you're really thinking this through,

00:03:35.100 | you say, "Okay. Well, first of all,

00:03:37.060 | these five people, I want to whatever,

00:03:39.460 | I want to talk to them every single week and here's when I call them,

00:03:42.140 | and I put aside a lot of time for that, and that's important.

00:03:44.300 | These people, we go out and we get coffee

00:03:47.340 | every weekend because very important people to me,

00:03:49.500 | and I go once a quarter to go see this relative of mine."

00:03:52.500 | Some of this has nothing to do with technology,

00:03:54.540 | but you're actively saying, "This is important to me.

00:03:56.420 | What do I want to do in this?"

00:03:58.020 | Then you might be saying, "Okay.

00:04:00.180 | Instant messenger might be useful for talking to

00:04:02.700 | these people in other times or

00:04:04.100 | these relatives that are overseas who I can't see as much, and that's great.

00:04:06.740 | But if you know that's why you're using it,

00:04:08.260 | then you can say, "What rules do I want to put around that so that I can,

00:04:11.260 | in true digital minimalist fashion,

00:04:13.180 | preserve the benefit here while avoiding most of the unnecessary harms?"

00:04:16.580 | When you go through that exercise,

00:04:17.900 | you're probably going to learn, "Oh,

00:04:19.380 | I got to retrain people's expectations about how I use these services.

00:04:24.660 | I probably need to step away from,

00:04:27.300 | I will be involved in ad hoc threads that are happening throughout the day."

00:04:30.940 | Now, I just got to step away from that.

00:04:32.780 | It'll take people a week to adjust and then they'll get it.

00:04:34.940 | I want to put aside time,

00:04:36.540 | and maybe it's at the beginning of each day over

00:04:38.220 | a lunch break where I do check in on things to see what people are talking about.

00:04:41.900 | What I do there is not so much try to just jump into those conversations,

00:04:45.620 | but use the Instant Messenger to maybe set up or arrange a call or a meeting,

00:04:49.700 | use it logistically so I can see what's going on in people's lives.

00:04:52.420 | But I don't think just back and forth asynchronous conversations on there,

00:04:55.500 | that doesn't count for much.

00:04:56.680 | I don't feel like that's that significant.

00:04:58.180 | I'm not going to spend that much time doing it.

00:04:59.460 | You could just completely rethink how you use

00:05:01.020 | those tools once you know what your goal is.

00:05:03.700 | If your goal is having deep, meaningful connections,

00:05:06.540 | you're not going to come away with an answer that says,

00:05:08.820 | "I should be on this all the time."

00:05:10.580 | Now, why is this important?

00:05:12.540 | Well, when you come at tool usage from the perspective of how do I

00:05:16.740 | support a vision of a life well-lived that I seriously believe in,

00:05:19.940 | changes are sustainable, and you stop using it the way you did before.

00:05:24.500 | You stop checking in on all these threads,

00:05:26.260 | you stop using it as a distraction.

00:05:27.420 | Why? Because you have a new way of using it that aligns with something you believe in,

00:05:31.420 | deep in your bones to be the right way to live.

00:05:33.380 | That is very compelling.

00:05:35.460 | Now, suddenly when you're like, "Oh,

00:05:37.260 | maybe I should pick up this phone when I have to look up a schedule,

00:05:40.340 | at uni and go to Instant Messenger."

00:05:42.660 | You're like, "If I do that,

00:05:44.500 | then I'm repudiating this whole vision I'm so excited about,

00:05:47.460 | about a life well-lived, and I don't want to repudiate that.

00:05:49.300 | I want to live that life. I'm excited about it."

00:05:51.140 | So you don't check.

00:05:52.460 | That is the power of coming at digital usage from

00:05:55.100 | the perspective of supporting the positive,

00:05:56.860 | not just trying to reduce or eliminate the negative.

00:06:00.020 | That is what I'm going to suggest.

00:06:01.380 | Let's give this the full digital minimalism treatment.

00:06:04.500 | Solidify that picture of what matters to you,

00:06:08.340 | come up with a plan that really supports that.

00:06:10.500 | Be radical about it.

00:06:11.580 | Like, "Hey, I'm going to every other month

00:06:13.580 | fly to go visit this relative or whatever."

00:06:15.620 | The more radical you are,

00:06:16.780 | the more you signal to yourself you take that seriously.

00:06:19.740 | But then have very specific rules about your tech inside of that picture.

00:06:23.260 | I think you'll find that your digital usage is going to be greatly reduced.

00:06:27.220 | I mean, the hardest thing about this,

00:06:28.980 | and Jesse, I have this in my own family,

00:06:31.100 | is the transition of not being someone who participates in threats.

00:06:37.100 | Because it's basically like a binary categorization.

00:06:40.220 | There's like the people you know that for whatever reason,

00:06:43.540 | will reliably participate in text or instant messenger threads.

00:06:47.540 | Like if you say something, they'll come back to it.

00:06:49.180 | They're always there.

00:06:50.220 | It's nice because you can be in touch with that person all the time.

00:06:54.540 | But it's not sustainable.

00:06:56.460 | People get used to it.

00:06:57.820 | Like, "Okay, Jesse probably is not going to just answer back a random text right when I sent it."

00:07:03.140 | I mean, unless he happens to be doing other text messages.

00:07:06.460 | People completely adjust to it.

00:07:08.020 | And you know what?

00:07:08.620 | It does not hurt your relationships with people because all of that doesn't do much anyways.

00:07:12.780 | If you're instead prioritizing,

00:07:14.580 | like, "How do I really talk to this person?

00:07:16.540 | I'm going to call this person every week.

00:07:17.620 | I'm going to go see these people once a month."

00:07:19.140 | Then the fact that you're not at three in the afternoon

00:07:21.700 | answering the random back and forth doesn't matter.

00:07:24.900 | So-

00:07:26.060 | >> You can always talk about how texting is a little bit

00:07:28.700 | different than social media too as well, right?

00:07:31.540 | >> Yeah. Yeah, because it's not the mechanics there are not someone's

00:07:34.860 | trying to steal your time.

00:07:37.060 | It's not engineered to be addictive.

00:07:39.020 | The pressures there are social.

00:07:40.740 | So it's a social engineering problem,

00:07:42.500 | not an attention engineering problem.

00:07:44.100 | The reason why people have a hard time getting away from the texting is

00:07:48.180 | because they have configured their expectations with the people they

00:07:52.060 | know in such a way that they expect them to be reachable.

00:07:54.620 | And that is very convenient.

00:07:56.060 | But once you've configured those expectations,

00:07:58.060 | you're going to have to be answering texts back and forth all the time.

00:08:00.900 | So like you have to completely rebuild those expectations

00:08:03.980 | of I'm not just randomly available,

00:08:07.580 | but I do see you and spend time with you a lot.

00:08:09.580 | And if you need to get in touch with me,

00:08:10.540 | I'll see it at some point today and I'm reliable.

00:08:13.940 | But I'm also not on my phone most of the time.

00:08:16.580 | >> But no matter what social media and

00:08:18.260 | texting are still context switching if you're in deep work.

00:08:20.980 | >> Well, yeah, that's the problem. It has the same cost.

00:08:22.820 | Yeah. So the social media is bringing in you because there's

00:08:25.260 | a neural net app that is

00:08:26.900 | selecting things to show you the press your brain stem.

00:08:28.700 | You're like, "Man, I got to look at that."

00:08:30.140 | Context switch, you're in trouble.

00:08:31.660 | Texting has none of that,

00:08:32.780 | but it's still very powerful because if there's

00:08:36.060 | a social expectation that you have established that I will answer.

00:08:39.580 | And now the person you know is sending you a quick question.

00:08:43.300 | Like, "Well, I got to keep checking because it's a problem if I don't answer."

00:08:46.620 | And then you have the same cost.

00:08:48.620 | >> Yeah. Actually, I want to ask you this question about texting.

00:08:51.980 | Because a lot of times, like say,

00:08:53.540 | you have a note or something that you want to text somebody,

00:08:55.700 | you might write that down when you're in like a deep work session or whatever.

00:08:58.540 | >> Yeah.

00:08:58.860 | >> Then like say that that session's over,

00:09:00.700 | you go to text the person,

00:09:01.860 | then you read another text and you forget about it.

00:09:04.660 | There's really no way to,

00:09:08.180 | well, I've figured out one way.

00:09:09.900 | If you just close your texting interface and you pull everybody up by

00:09:13.020 | the contacts and you can text them directly.

00:09:15.060 | >> Right.

00:09:15.340 | >> But otherwise, like you can't,

00:09:16.660 | you're always going to see the main page of the texting.

00:09:18.740 | Have you ever thought about that?

00:09:20.540 | >> So then what, you're saying the issue is if you want to like hold on to-

00:09:24.140 | >> You get distracted because like you say you go,

00:09:26.900 | you want to text Elon Musk about coming on your podcast.

00:09:29.740 | >> Right.

00:09:29.900 | >> Then you're going to go there and you see

00:09:32.060 | Mark Zuckerberg asked you to go to get drinks for happy hours.

00:09:34.860 | >> You sigh like, "Oh, Mark."

00:09:37.300 | >> Such expectations for accessibility.

00:09:39.060 | >> Then you forget to invite Elon on the thing

00:09:42.140 | because you sent Mark the response or whatever.

00:09:44.780 | >> Yeah.

00:09:45.420 | >> Do you ever think about that or do you have a way around that?

00:09:49.380 | >> I mean, yeah. I mean, I think it's the problem.

00:09:52.580 | Like text messages are very convenient,

00:09:54.620 | but it's the problem of using that as like the primary way.

00:09:57.220 | Or like where they're useful is I'm meeting you.

00:10:01.940 | I'm coming to meet you and we have to,

00:10:03.740 | "Hey, I'm five minutes late."

00:10:04.980 | Or like I'll text you if I'm coming over here and like every single week I'm late.

00:10:09.060 | I'll be like, "I'm late or here's what's going on."

00:10:10.900 | It's logistical, it's helping us like coordinate.

00:10:14.140 | We're about to get together.

00:10:15.860 | It works fine for that or you're like,

00:10:17.340 | "Hey, why aren't you here? I'm at the bar."

00:10:18.460 | Or something like that. But when it's,

00:10:20.500 | I get these type of things a lot and I don't like it where it says like,

00:10:22.860 | "Someone randomly texted me during the day."

00:10:24.700 | Yeah, and there's like an obligation in it and like,

00:10:26.620 | "What about this?" Or, "Can you let me know when you're available for whatever?"

00:10:29.500 | I'm like, "Exactly this issue."

00:10:30.980 | How am I going to, this is going to be lost in

00:10:33.740 | the string full of all these other texts from all these other people.

00:10:35.940 | How am I going to remember?

00:10:37.220 | Like typically what I try to do is immediately if I

00:10:39.500 | see something like that get into my capture system.

00:10:42.100 | Like right away, I get them like, "Yeah,

00:10:44.180 | I think it's a huge problem."

00:10:45.300 | >> Yeah.

00:10:45.820 | >> Like texting, text interfaces are not invented for a world in

00:10:49.340 | which there could be dozens of people spontaneously,

00:10:52.860 | like that you're engaged in conversations with anyone of

00:10:55.420 | which could involve obligations being introduced for you.

00:10:58.340 | >> Yeah.

00:10:58.820 | >> Completely asynchronous and outside of your control.

00:11:01.220 | >> I found a workaway, I use an Android.

00:11:03.460 | So if you go to the contacts page on the Android and you pull up like Mark's cell phone.

00:11:08.020 | >> It will show only their text?

00:11:09.340 | >> You can text them through that interface.

00:11:11.660 | >> That's smart.

00:11:12.380 | >> And then, so if you're disciplined about it,

00:11:15.420 | you go to the texting page but you're beyond

00:11:17.820 | Mark's individual profile where you're texting him.

00:11:21.300 | And then as long as you do that.

00:11:22.220 | >> Yeah, that's interesting. That's smart.

00:11:23.580 | Okay, so you pull up the contact and then it can just be.

00:11:26.460 | >> Yeah.

00:11:26.980 | >> So like if you and I are talking like right before a recording session,

00:11:30.660 | we could be just seeing each other.

00:11:33.540 | Like I could just be seeing you.

00:11:35.020 | >> It brings it over to the other one.

00:11:36.380 | But if I just know that I needed to text you,

00:11:38.620 | then I could just go into the contact,

00:11:40.020 | grab you and text you and I wouldn't be distracted by other texts.

00:11:42.620 | >> Right. If you need to send something. Oh, so outbound.

00:11:44.580 | >> Yeah.

00:11:44.940 | >> Yeah. It's a good fix.

00:11:48.300 | Yeah. I mean, that's a hard one. People have a hard time with that.

00:11:50.740 | And again, I think it's all just,

00:11:52.340 | it's expectations because it's a problem.

00:11:55.140 | Once the expectation is set, it's true.

00:11:56.500 | You can't just stop using it.

00:11:57.900 | Like I think that is harder than people leaving social media.

00:12:01.500 | People think it's going to be hard to leave social media because people

00:12:04.260 | imagine there's these big audiences that care but they don't.

00:12:06.820 | And no one notices when you leave and it's kind of embarrassing.

00:12:09.300 | Text messaging people notice when you change your habit.

00:12:11.900 | Right? So like, if you're on Twitter and you quit Twitter, no one cares.

00:12:17.100 | Like no one, because you were just being

00:12:19.180 | algorithmically thrown in the feeds with other stuff and no one knows.

00:12:21.740 | It's all dehumanized and depersonalized and who cares.

00:12:24.100 | But if like your brother stops responding to text,

00:12:27.300 | but he always had reliably been doing that,

00:12:28.980 | then that's like, oh my God, like people you know.

00:12:30.660 | Like it's way more.

00:12:31.940 | I learned that working on digital minimalism and working with

00:12:34.780 | people that are going through the process of the declutter.

00:12:37.660 | It's way more like personal and fraught changing your text habits or

00:12:41.380 | instant messenger habits than it is changing your social media habits.

00:12:46.740 | Maybe I should just get my text,

00:12:48.700 | my phone number out to our listeners.

00:12:51.540 | So they can just text you?

00:12:52.860 | Just text me.

00:12:53.500 | Yeah.

00:12:54.140 | That would go well. I don't mind.

00:12:57.500 | All right. Where are we at?

00:12:59.180 | Oh no. I'm going to speed up now.

00:13:00.900 | I always say 45 minutes and we've never been under like 57 minutes.

00:13:06.060 | Well, I think there's always value in the episode.

00:13:08.220 | That's true.

00:13:08.980 | Your audience wants to hear you.

00:13:10.180 | That's true.

00:13:10.620 | Jive on stuff.

00:13:11.460 | I hear you.

00:13:11.900 | [MUSIC PLAYING]

Cal Newport's Harsh Advice For An Instant Messaging Addict | Deep Questions Podcast

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