Minimalism Hacks - Maximize Your Life with Minimal Possessions

00:00:00.000 | I'm glad that I had done the work of creating a home that was calm and peaceful, a home

00:00:08.840 | that I wanted to be in, a home that wasn't adding stress to my life.

00:00:14.480 | Not to mention, I felt like I had saved a lot of money by pursuing minimalism and buying

00:00:21.280 | less stuff.

00:00:22.440 | I felt freer, I felt less tied down to the place that I was confined to be in.

00:00:31.640 | I think some people early on were like, "Boy, I bet you're regretting becoming a minimalist

00:00:37.480 | now that you're stuck inside your home."

00:00:39.800 | And I'm like, "No, just the opposite.

00:00:42.720 | I feel free, I feel like we could get up and move if we needed to."

00:00:48.480 | I felt like I had saved up some money along the way.

00:00:52.960 | It's not that my home is empty.

00:00:54.560 | There's still things to do in my home and I thought I brought a lot of intentionality

00:00:58.920 | into my life.

00:00:59.920 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life,

00:01:05.600 | money and travel.

00:01:07.040 | I'm Chris Hutchins, and I am excited you're here today.

00:01:10.200 | I've always known I wanted to do an episode on minimalism because I'm fascinated by it.

00:01:15.560 | I'm not anywhere close to a hoarder, but I certainly struggle myself with getting rid

00:01:20.400 | of things that I might need or want to use one day.

00:01:23.800 | Well, a few weeks ago, I got connected with Joshua Becker and I knew that our conversation

00:01:29.240 | would make for a great episode.

00:01:31.540 | For those of you who don't know him, he's the founder of Becoming Minimalist, a website

00:01:36.000 | that's inspired millions of visitors around the world.

00:01:39.620 | He's also the best-selling author of The More of Less, The Minimalist Home, and most

00:01:44.960 | recently, Things That Matter, Overcoming Distractions to Pursue a More Meaningful Life.

00:01:51.180 | It just came out last week and it's a fantastic read.

00:01:54.960 | In our conversation, we'll talk about what most people get wrong about minimalism, why

00:01:59.740 | owning less can bring more meaning to life, ways to get started without jumping straight

00:02:05.720 | into the deep end, and the big distractions outside of just stuff that get in the way

00:02:11.400 | of focusing on the things that matter in life.

00:02:14.500 | So let's jump in.

00:02:15.500 | Joshua, thank you for being here.

00:02:23.260 | Well, thank you for having me here.

00:02:25.440 | It's a pleasure.

00:02:26.440 | Yeah.

00:02:27.440 | I'm going to jump right in.

00:02:28.720 | What do you think most people get wrong when they think about minimalism?

00:02:33.040 | Well, I've been writing about minimalism for 13 years or so and I think when I first started,

00:02:40.640 | the misconceptions were this was going to be a barren, empty home.

00:02:48.100 | And I think we kind of shaken that misconception quite a bit.

00:02:52.120 | The misconception that I fight against the most is that minimalism is about checking

00:03:01.360 | out of life, that minimalism is about quitting my job as soon as I possibly can, not contributing

00:03:11.000 | anything to the world and just laying out a beach for the rest of my life.

00:03:16.560 | In my mind, minimalism is about removing physical distractions, removing possessions so that

00:03:23.800 | I can live a bigger life that accomplishes more good for the world than if I was carrying

00:03:29.700 | around a bunch of stuff that I didn't need.

00:03:32.740 | Why is it so important, especially right now, for people to think this way and give it a

00:03:38.600 | consider?

00:03:39.600 | Yeah, because never at any point in human history have human beings owned as much stuff

00:03:45.420 | as we do now.

00:03:47.700 | Things are cheaper than ever.

00:03:49.940 | Things are more accessible and more available.

00:03:53.000 | I mean, with the click of a button, I can get things delivered to my home in an hour.

00:04:01.200 | The stats are pretty fascinating.

00:04:02.680 | The average American home has tripled in size in the last 50 years and still 10% of Americans

00:04:08.720 | rent offsite storage.

00:04:10.960 | The LA Times one time printed that the average American home has 300,000 items inside of

00:04:16.320 | it.

00:04:17.320 | And I think the more you accumulate, then the more of a physical burden, the more of

00:04:25.040 | a mental burden, just the more time all of our things take from us.

00:04:29.800 | So yeah, I think it's probably more important than ever to be intentional about the things

00:04:34.760 | we're allowing into our homes and lives.

00:04:38.640 | I'm thinking as you say that, "Gosh, how many things are in my house?"

00:04:41.200 | And I don't even know if I want to know the answer, but you write a lot about the how

00:04:45.400 | of decluttering and minimization and all of that stuff.

00:04:49.080 | But it seems like the why, kind of the internal work you have to do is almost more or maybe

00:04:55.200 | as much as important.

00:04:56.480 | Is that true?

00:04:57.480 | Yeah.

00:04:58.480 | I mean, certainly the how.

00:05:04.760 | Owning less is better than thinking about owning less.

00:05:08.360 | So it's one thing to be introduced to the idea, to be drawn to the idea of removing

00:05:16.080 | distractions.

00:05:18.040 | It's something completely different to actually begin walking down that road.

00:05:22.800 | Whenever I help people go through this process, the first thing that I always have people

00:05:28.560 | do is sit down and answer this question.

00:05:33.400 | I desire to own less so that I can blank.

00:05:39.200 | You fill in the blank however you want.

00:05:42.400 | What is the goal?

00:05:44.480 | What is the purpose?

00:05:45.480 | For me, it was a Saturday morning, cleaning out my garage while I wish I was playing with

00:05:50.240 | my son.

00:05:51.360 | And I could just see how all the things I owned were distracting me and taking me away

00:05:56.640 | from spending time with my family.

00:05:58.560 | And so, I literally just want to spend more time with my family.

00:06:02.520 | But other people, they want to own less so you can travel more or you can retire early

00:06:08.320 | or get out of debt or there's environmental reasons behind your pursuit.

00:06:14.240 | But nailing the why, I think is pretty important because the goal of minimalism is never just

00:06:23.080 | to own the fewest amount of things as possible.

00:06:27.560 | Minimalism is always just a means to an end of some sort.

00:06:32.240 | And so, knowing that, number one, I think provides the motivation and the momentum.

00:06:39.040 | For most people, decluttering their possessions is hard work, requires physical work and emotional

00:06:44.960 | work and mental work.

00:06:46.800 | And so, I think having that goal, knowing why they want to do it is helpful.

00:06:53.200 | When I wrote my first book, The More of Less, I learned a little bit about publishing pretty

00:06:58.520 | early on.

00:06:59.520 | It was one of our early - we met in the Denver airport for lunch with some of the vice presidents

00:07:06.720 | and publishers and editors, and they asked me the question, "What do you want to name

00:07:11.600 | the book?"

00:07:13.220 | And I said, "Well, I thought I'd name the book Becoming Minimalist."

00:07:17.760 | And she said, "Well, you can't name the book Becoming Minimalist."

00:07:23.720 | And I said, "Oh, I can't?"

00:07:28.080 | And she said, "No.

00:07:30.620 | Becoming Minimalist is the process that gets you somewhere.

00:07:34.720 | Like, what is the promise of minimalism?

00:07:38.440 | That's the title of your book, not the process.

00:07:42.240 | Make it the promise."

00:07:43.240 | So, that was my first introduction to publishing.

00:07:48.000 | I like it.

00:07:49.000 | The promise of The More of Less.

00:07:51.160 | The More of Less, Finding the Life You Want Under Everything You Own was the first book

00:07:55.200 | and that then became the title, which I think that's the promise, right?

00:07:59.120 | I don't think anyone's desire in life is just to own as much stuff as they possibly can.

00:08:04.500 | We certainly have bigger dreams for our lives than that.

00:08:06.840 | When it comes to the how, what are the hacks to actually do that?

00:08:10.600 | So, let's say I've decided, "Okay, now I don't want a lot of stuff."

00:08:15.320 | It's surely not as easy as just, "Well, just get rid of it all."

00:08:18.900 | Do you start with a room?

00:08:20.040 | Do you start with a category?

00:08:21.600 | Do you have any advice to someone who's gone through the process to find their why?

00:08:26.440 | Do they do it gradually or all at once?

00:08:28.560 | There are some people who can do it all in a weekend.

00:08:32.320 | I know a friend who, as soon as he heard about minimalism, rented a dumpster and was like

00:08:37.360 | done by the end of the day.

00:08:39.280 | But that's a pretty small percentage of people, although if you can pull it off and if that's

00:08:44.240 | your type of personality, then it's certainly better than taking six or nine months to declutter

00:08:49.980 | your home.

00:08:51.720 | But if you're married and you got two kids and you got 15 years of stuff in your home,

00:08:58.320 | then it probably takes a little more time and a little more effort.

00:09:03.040 | The strategy that I use, the method that I have found to be the most helpful for the

00:09:08.480 | most number of people is to work through your home, easiest to hardest, starting with the

00:09:16.600 | most lived in areas first.

00:09:20.180 | So some folks would say category by category, but I think room by room and don't fall into

00:09:28.080 | the trap of starting minimizing possessions by going to the hardest room that you'll ever

00:09:37.880 | have to complete.

00:09:39.240 | Because a lot of people hear about decluttering and they're like that's right, I got to go

00:09:42.660 | through my garage, I got to go through my attic or the basement.

00:09:46.940 | And then you go spend an hour and a half in the basement and you don't see any progress

00:09:52.060 | at the end of the day and you feel frustrated, kind of throw up your hands and give up this

00:09:56.460 | is never going to work for me.

00:09:58.540 | But you could go spend 15 minutes in your car and like totally change the inside of

00:10:06.300 | your car the very next time you get in it.

00:10:08.460 | Or you could spend an hour and a half in your living room or your bedroom or your bathroom

00:10:13.280 | and you could notice a change by the end of the day and that just - that mental movement

00:10:23.240 | of seeing progress and seeing that you're making changes then motivates you to go tackle

00:10:29.460 | the next space and the next space and the next space.

00:10:32.620 | So, easiest to hardest, most lived in areas first and by that I mean don't - like maybe

00:10:38.380 | the guest bedroom is the easiest thing for you to declutter in your home but you're never

00:10:43.060 | in the guest bedroom, so you never see the progress, you never feel like you're making

00:10:47.900 | any changes.

00:10:48.900 | So, I would tell people to go start in their car, just take everything out of your car

00:10:52.380 | that you don't need and the next time you get in your car, see how it makes you feel.

00:10:56.660 | I can guarantee you'll love it a lot more than having the empty water bottle rolling

00:11:01.420 | around in the back seat the whole time.

00:11:03.820 | Has any of the changes in the last few years from the pandemic and working from home changed

00:11:10.580 | any perspectives you had on, you know, your home and what you should do and how you should

00:11:14.580 | think about it now that lots of people ended up working from home and maybe some will forever?

00:11:19.740 | My overriding thought of going into the pandemic back two years ago now was I'm glad I found

00:11:31.400 | minimalism 12 years ago.

00:11:34.660 | Like I'm glad that I had done the work of creating a home that was calm and peaceful,

00:11:43.040 | a home that I wanted to be in, a home that wasn't adding stress to my life.

00:11:49.220 | Not to mention, I felt like I had saved a lot of money by pursuing minimalism and buying

00:11:56.020 | less stuff, I felt freer, I felt less tied down to the place that I was confined to be

00:12:05.580 | in.

00:12:06.580 | And I think some people early on were like "Boy, I bet you're regretting becoming a minimalist

00:12:12.260 | now that you're stuck inside your home" and I'm like "No, just the opposite".

00:12:17.380 | Like I feel free, like I feel like we could get up and move if we needed to.

00:12:23.220 | I felt like I had saved up some money along the ways.

00:12:27.700 | It's not that my home is empty, there's still things to do in my home and I thought I brought

00:12:32.420 | a lot of intentionality into my life over the last 10 years about how I spent my time

00:12:37.100 | and certainly, I think the pandemic upended a lot of that in a lot of ways and a lot of

00:12:42.580 | unhealthy habits that emerged, but I thought that I was in a much better place to handle

00:12:48.260 | those and overcome them once the world slowly opened back up again.

00:12:55.820 | You mentioned you started this a little over a decade ago.

00:12:58.580 | So, were you always just the kind of person who didn't care about stuff and had your garage

00:13:05.020 | was empty, you didn't buy stuff all the time and that this was easy or how was the transition

00:13:09.740 | for you at the kind of genesis of your approach to minimalism?

00:13:14.440 | It wasn't something that I started out doing, I've been married 10 years, my son was five

00:13:20.980 | and my daughter was two at the time where I was introduced to minimalism.

00:13:27.940 | Pretty typical middle-class suburban lifestyle.

00:13:34.020 | I always tell the story how we had gotten three pretty significant pay increases over

00:13:39.180 | those first 10 years of marriage and yet, for some reason, we're never able to get ahead

00:13:44.540 | financially.

00:13:46.460 | It always seemed like, well, now that I got that pay raise, I should be able to save everything

00:13:52.420 | new that was coming into my life, but it just had never worked out that way.

00:13:57.460 | It seemed like the more money came in, the more money went out.

00:14:02.180 | And then it wasn't until - yeah, my son was five, my daughter was two and literally on

00:14:07.460 | a Saturday morning, we were living in Vermont at the time and just our typical spring cleaning,

00:14:14.300 | I went out to clean the garage and it ended up just taking hours of organizing stuff and

00:14:20.740 | getting rid of stuff and cleaning things out and my son was in the backyard asking me to

00:14:26.660 | come play and I kept pushing him off.

00:14:31.220 | It's like just this constant "no, no, one more minute, I'm almost done, I'm almost done,

00:14:35.100 | we'll play, we'll play as soon as I'm done" and it was my neighbor who introduced me to

00:14:40.060 | minimalism as I think I was complaining a little bit about how much effort had gone

00:14:44.220 | into the garage and she says "you know, that's why my daughter's a minimalist, she keeps

00:14:48.980 | telling me I don't need to own all this stuff" and yeah, looking at the pile of things in

00:14:55.340 | my driveway and there's my son swinging alone on the swing set in the backyard and suddenly

00:15:01.340 | realized all the things I owned weren't making me happy which we would all say but even more,

00:15:09.500 | all those things were distracting me and taking me away from the thing that did bring me happiness

00:15:13.720 | and joy and meaning and life and so, that was it and as far as the - like was it difficult

00:15:21.780 | for me?

00:15:23.060 | No, it wasn't.

00:15:25.420 | Like I saw the bigger picture right away, I could see pretty clearly how owning less

00:15:30.820 | stuff would free me up to invest my life in things that actually matter so, certainly

00:15:37.980 | there were - it took about six or nine months so, there was certainly effort that had to

00:15:43.220 | go into it and tough decisions that needed to be made but I certainly wasn't drug into

00:15:49.580 | the lifestyle kicking and screaming, I was pretty excited about the opportunity right

00:15:53.660 | away.

00:15:54.660 | I imagine most people listening are thinking "I'm on board, you know, I've already thought

00:16:00.020 | for the last 10 minutes about what my why is" but I feel like when the rubber hits the

00:16:05.400 | road and you're like "Okay, now I got to start getting rid of things", I can already run

00:16:08.700 | through my head the story I'd have for almost everything that I probably should get rid

00:16:13.580 | of and haven't and in my particular life, there's one thing that between my wife and

00:16:19.780 | I is like this.

00:16:20.780 | She's much more the "Throw everything away" or "Give it away" or "We don't need this"

00:16:26.920 | and I have maybe a common attitude of like "Well, one day, what if we want this thing?"

00:16:32.320 | And the one that comes to mind every time is someone gave us a raclette, just like a

00:16:38.500 | little grill on the top and it heats up cheese and you'd use it when you have your friends

00:16:42.000 | over for dinner and we have this thing and in 10 years, we've maybe used it once and

00:16:49.340 | she would make the argument "If we don't use this more than that, it's got to go" and I'm

00:16:53.140 | like "Well, like we have the room in the house and maybe one day we'll need it".

00:16:57.260 | I'm going to be really bummed when I say "We should do this one time and we don't have

00:17:00.620 | it, then what do I do?

00:17:01.620 | Do I buy it?

00:17:02.620 | You can't really rent it".

00:17:03.620 | What do you do when you have a conversation with someone and they bring - I imagine I'm

00:17:07.680 | not the only person that has this challenge of like "Ah, I might want this thing one day,

00:17:11.460 | so I shouldn't get rid of it".

00:17:12.580 | Well, this specific one, heating up cheese, you are the first one ever, by the way.

00:17:19.340 | I don't even know what this is.

00:17:20.740 | There's no other way to heat up cheese except for this one little tool.

00:17:24.920 | It's a device you would put on the table to eat with people and cook food together versus

00:17:30.000 | something you'd use in the pantry, but it could very easily be a fondue set.

00:17:35.300 | So we can pretend it's a fondue set.

00:17:37.780 | Got it.

00:17:38.780 | Got it.

00:17:39.780 | Got it.

00:17:40.780 | So this would be a classic example of "I'm in for owning less and my mind races to the

00:17:56.820 | hardest thing in my home that I would ever have to get rid of".

00:18:02.420 | And I don't want to shirk the responsibility of this question here, but honestly, what

00:18:08.460 | I would tell you, what I would tell anyone else is I would say "Don't start by getting

00:18:13.900 | rid of the hardest thing in your home that you would ever have to get rid of".

00:18:19.660 | Like I just did an interview earlier with someone who had like a Pringles can that they

00:18:26.820 | got from their grandfather who taught them how to invest money and this was where he

00:18:31.560 | saved his money.

00:18:32.560 | And I'm like "Well, you don't start by getting rid of the Pringles can, like let's just find

00:18:37.940 | some things in your home that you know you don't need, you know you don't use.

00:18:44.100 | Maybe you have duplicates of the item, maybe you have something else that could accomplish

00:18:48.860 | the exact same thing, maybe it's something that was from a different season of life that

00:18:52.880 | you no longer use anymore.

00:18:55.340 | Let's find easier wins, let's make quicker progress and then start noticing how owning

00:19:03.220 | less frees up your life for bigger and better things.

00:19:08.300 | And just notice the change that's taking place in what happens when you walk in your home,

00:19:15.420 | how much less time you have to spend cleaning or organizing, how much money you're saving

00:19:20.740 | by not buying stuff that you don't need, how much more life is enjoyable when everything

00:19:28.260 | you own is your favorite of something rather than you know, a closet full of clothes that

00:19:34.500 | you only wear 20% of them anyway.

00:19:37.700 | Like start noticing some of those benefits and then when you get to the fondue set, like

00:19:46.220 | you'll be in a better place and maybe you've decluttered a lot more and now having people

00:19:53.620 | over is something that's becoming more important to you and your home is cleaner and so, it's

00:19:58.540 | easier to do and you're like "no, this is something that's going to be - you know, this

00:20:02.980 | is something that showing hospitality and having people over is an important value to

00:20:07.100 | us and this fondue set allows us to do that".

00:20:10.420 | And so, you're going to keep it or maybe you're going to be like "you know what?

00:20:13.820 | This is kind of stupid that I was holding on to this thing and now that I think about

00:20:18.900 | it, I do have a friend and I could borrow his if I desperately needed it at some point

00:20:23.140 | in the future".

00:20:24.660 | What you just said about borrowing something comes to mind with the most common objection

00:20:29.320 | I would think of going through my house.

00:20:31.100 | There are a lot of things that I don't actually have like an attachment to, but I think in

00:20:37.540 | the back of my mind, "Well, one day what if I need this thing?

00:20:40.460 | Basketball.

00:20:41.460 | I own a basketball.

00:20:42.460 | I don't play basketball a lot, but I know there's a park down the street with a basketball.

00:20:46.180 | If I wanted to play basketball one day, I don't really want to go buy a basketball.

00:20:49.660 | So, what about when it's not that it's an emotional attachment, it's not a hard thing

00:20:53.980 | to get rid of, but it's just something that you think "Well, one day I might need this

00:20:59.180 | and I don't want to buy it then, so I want to keep it".

00:21:02.260 | One option you just gave, which is maybe someone you know has one to borrow.

00:21:05.880 | Is there anything else to help people get over that hurdle of "I might need this someday"?

00:21:10.940 | Yeah.

00:21:11.940 | I mean, there's just some math that we can do in our heads.

00:21:16.060 | What are the probabilities of me needing a basketball?

00:21:20.060 | How hard would it be to replace?

00:21:22.460 | How much really would it cost if I needed to replace it?

00:21:26.380 | What is my financial situation if that was required?

00:21:31.620 | I often think that there's - the question we typically ask ourselves is "Yeah, but what

00:21:37.740 | if I need it someday?"

00:21:41.100 | And I always think there's another side to that question, and the other side of that

00:21:47.420 | question is "What if I hold on to everything for the rest of my life and never end up using

00:21:54.660 | it?"

00:21:55.660 | Like there's more than just a financial cost to the things that we buy and the things that

00:22:02.980 | we own.

00:22:03.980 | Like everything we own takes up physical space in our home and it takes up mental space in

00:22:08.960 | our mind and it's - Randy Alcorn says "Every increased possession adds increased anxiety

00:22:14.540 | onto our lives".

00:22:15.540 | Even it's just like a little bit in the back of your head "Oh yeah, I've got that basketball.

00:22:20.060 | I got to decide what I'm going to do with it at some point".

00:22:25.300 | You know, once we start making these changes, maybe there's some kid down the street who

00:22:34.340 | could be using that basketball every single day if he just knew that there was one out

00:22:39.740 | there.

00:22:41.100 | And so, there's a cost to holding on to things that we don't always consider.

00:22:46.740 | I'll share a story that goes in the positive for my clutter lifestyle, which I wouldn't

00:22:52.580 | say I have necessarily, but we got rid of a lot of stuff when we moved.

00:22:57.480 | And we moved into a house that had a lot of storage in the garage and we realized we maybe

00:23:00.380 | didn't need all of it.

00:23:02.160 | And so, by getting rid of a lot of the storage in the garage, we thought "Wow, we actually

00:23:05.740 | have enough room here that we could put a spin bike in the garage and now we could exercise

00:23:10.540 | more".

00:23:11.540 | And so, for us, getting rid of some stuff enabled us to use the space differently.

00:23:16.300 | We could actually have a - in a weird way, it almost gave us an extra room in our house.

00:23:21.660 | So I'll just share that as something that, for us, worked to our advantage to getting

00:23:26.880 | rid of stuff.

00:23:27.880 | Now, do I have a ways to go, I'm sure.

00:23:31.660 | I think another struggle I come to and I know you have a perspective on this is "Gosh, I

00:23:36.820 | have this thing.

00:23:38.480 | I could probably sell this thing on eBay and it's worth more than zero.

00:23:43.300 | So I should probably make sure that I sell it, but the overhead and actually selling

00:23:47.000 | something is really high and I don't want to go hire someone at a sell it again store

00:23:52.460 | because now they're going to take 20% and I'm perfectly capable.

00:23:56.100 | And so 6 years later, I still have this iPhone that used to be worth $50 more, I guess now

00:24:03.940 | is worth $50.

00:24:04.940 | It used to be worth a few hundred dollars and had I just either given it away or sold

00:24:08.820 | it at the time, it would have been a better outcome.

00:24:11.140 | But the overhead of dealing with it meant that it just piled up.

00:24:16.940 | So the desire to sell something and make a little bit of extra money seems to always

00:24:21.180 | hold me back from just giving it away or getting rid of it.

00:24:24.020 | How do you think about that decision to give something away versus try to sell it?

00:24:29.100 | Generosity brings benefits into our lives that money doesn't.

00:24:36.500 | And if the question is, should I be donating all these things or should I be trying to

00:24:43.020 | sell everything?

00:24:45.380 | My advice is unless you desperately need the money, just donate the stuff.

00:24:54.900 | Find a local charity that you believe in.

00:24:57.580 | Find a local charity that's supporting a problem that you want to solve in the world, if it's

00:25:03.380 | homelessness or refugee resettlement or a battered women's clinic or foster care, foster

00:25:11.820 | children in the system.

00:25:15.860 | I think that there's a benefit that comes to just donating some of that stuff.

00:25:20.820 | Not personally, not even to mention how much - if you're trying to declutter a lot of stuff,

00:25:27.340 | then selling everything just adds time and energy and stress to an already pretty difficult

00:25:35.760 | process and we don't typically make nearly as much money as we think we're going to.

00:25:43.500 | And so, you know, there's a time and a space if you're getting rid of something really

00:25:47.420 | valuable or something really big and you don't have a truck to haul it away, like there's

00:25:53.280 | a time and a space I suppose for trying to resell some things on a selective basis.

00:26:00.100 | But most people, if you don't desperately need the money already, I think it's better

00:26:05.420 | just to donate.

00:26:06.420 | I actually find that when you start donating things, it tends to almost prompt more and

00:26:16.160 | more minimizing of things as opposed to trying to sell it.

00:26:21.780 | So, like when we started, my son was five, my daughter was two, we were done having children

00:26:26.740 | and so - but we had a basement full of maternity clothes and like baby things and crib and

00:26:35.780 | a high chair, like stuff that my daughter had just outgrown.

00:26:40.500 | And I remember we tried to sell it at a garage sale and like hardly any of it sold.

00:26:47.380 | And so, I called my neighbor who I knew worked at the Care Net Pregnancy Center in Burlington,

00:26:53.860 | Vermont, just down the road from us.

00:26:57.020 | And I'm like, "Hey, we have all this baby stuff, I was just going to take it to Goodwill,

00:27:01.980 | but like, is this stuff that you could use?"

00:27:06.260 | And I remember, like I'll never forget it, she's like, "Yeah, we can use that, that's

00:27:10.980 | exactly what we do.

00:27:12.700 | Like we work with families in poverty, we work with single mothers and we give them

00:27:18.340 | maternity clothes, baby clothes, high chairs, cribs, bottles, blankets, like the whole deal".

00:27:25.660 | And I was like, "Man, I don't - I guess I never knew what you did or I never knew how

00:27:30.700 | much of a need there was in the community".

00:27:33.820 | And like we went into our basement and we found more boxes of stuff that we didn't need.

00:27:39.220 | And we're like, "Man, if there's someone in the community that can be using this stuff

00:27:42.780 | like right now, why in the world would we let it just collect dust in our basement?"

00:27:47.820 | So, I think generosity and donating can even prompt - help us to get rid of even more and

00:27:54.620 | more.

00:27:55.620 | If anyone listening has probably already heard me talk about the book Happy Money, which

00:27:59.820 | it now turns out I learned there are two.

00:28:01.260 | So, the one by Elizabeth Dunn, one of the five things that I guess science has shown

00:28:06.100 | that at least this is spending money on, but I think the principles apply is spending money

00:28:11.820 | on others and giving money away.

00:28:13.700 | So, certainly the same principle I think would apply to things.

00:28:17.020 | What are the other four?

00:28:18.880 | Because I always just list three things that science says we can spend our money on to

00:28:22.820 | make us happy.

00:28:23.820 | But do you remember?

00:28:24.820 | I shouldn't be putting you on the spot.

00:28:26.380 | No, no.

00:28:27.380 | So, one is making something a treat.

00:28:30.140 | So, these aren't necessarily - there are ways that you can spend money.

00:28:33.940 | So, one is making things a treat.

00:28:36.420 | So, if you buy a latte every day, maybe consider buying the latte once a month or buying it

00:28:42.300 | once a week to make it a surprise.

00:28:44.580 | One is pre-paying for things.

00:28:47.300 | It's kind of like pay now, consume later.

00:28:48.780 | If you're going on a vacation, see if you can call the hotel and pay for the entire

00:28:53.300 | stay in advance so that when you end your hotel stay, your final experience isn't looking

00:28:59.580 | at this bill that was a few thousand dollars.

00:29:02.340 | I said invest in others.

00:29:03.340 | This is fun.

00:29:04.340 | I love being put on the spot.

00:29:06.180 | One is buying time.

00:29:07.180 | So, if there's a thing you don't love, if you hate cleaning your house, spend money.

00:29:10.140 | Imagine that's one that you've done.

00:29:11.540 | And then the last is probably one we've all heard, which is buying experiences.

00:29:15.060 | I had the bottom three.

00:29:16.300 | Whenever I talk about the three ways you can spend money that increase happiness, experiences

00:29:21.780 | over possessions, buying time, and being generous with our money, but I hadn't heard the first

00:29:27.420 | two.

00:29:28.420 | Yeah, the other two.

00:29:29.420 | Pay now, consume later, and make it a treat.

00:29:31.060 | Alright.

00:29:32.060 | Got it.

00:29:33.060 | So, those are a lot of the roadblocks.

00:29:34.860 | And I appreciate talking through them because I imagine a lot of people have come to this

00:29:39.660 | conclusion.

00:29:40.660 | There's one thing I want to ask about, which is interesting because we're having another

00:29:43.540 | child in a few months.

00:29:45.300 | And we were thinking about a trade-off here, which is time is of the essence, right?

00:29:50.700 | We just talked about spending money on time is a good use of money.

00:29:54.780 | But one of the things that takes up a lot of time when you have a child is there's just

00:29:58.260 | all these...

00:29:59.500 | Things get dirty all the time.

00:30:01.380 | Burp claws, bibs.

00:30:02.940 | So we went through this conversation at lunch today in advance of having this conversation.

00:30:07.620 | And we're like, "Gosh, our instinct was let's overbuy the bibs so we can underspend time

00:30:14.220 | on laundry.

00:30:16.100 | But you could make a case that we could buy three or four bibs and wash them.

00:30:20.720 | Or we could buy 20 and do laundry once a week.

00:30:24.020 | How do you juxtapose...

00:30:26.160 | You just said you recommend spending money on things to buy time, but you also like owning

00:30:29.980 | fewer things.

00:30:32.420 | Does the temporal nature of something like a burp cloth that you might only need for

00:30:36.020 | a year have a carve-out in the need for owning fewer possessions?

00:30:40.820 | Oh, that would be an interesting one.

00:30:43.340 | I don't know.

00:30:45.420 | I don't know how you'll know until you're actually in it.

00:30:50.580 | It's something...

00:30:53.580 | What is enough?

00:30:54.700 | I get asked everything.

00:30:56.060 | How much underwear should I own?

00:30:57.860 | How many pairs of shoes should I own?

00:30:59.940 | How many towels should I have in my home?

00:31:02.020 | I get asked how many square footage should I have in my home?

00:31:06.620 | I get asked everything.

00:31:09.380 | And the answer is, you really just need to experiment in your home to find out what is

00:31:18.620 | going to work best for you.

00:31:22.060 | My hope with possessions or my goal with possessions is that my possessions are not a burden to

00:31:29.020 | me, whether in too few or in too many.

00:31:33.980 | And most of us live with more possessions than we need.

00:31:38.500 | And so, it has become a burden to us and a distraction from things that matter.

00:31:43.780 | But there is the case that you could have too few of something and it also becomes burdensome

00:31:49.420 | if I have to visit a laundromat and I got to go there every two days, then at that point,

00:31:56.620 | it's becoming more of a burden to have fewer burp claws or fewer clothes than it would

00:32:01.620 | be to have a week's worth that fit into one wash.

00:32:05.780 | So I suppose I could make the case that, yeah, we're not going to use burp claws for that

00:32:13.100 | long and I don't know, can you donate burp claws?

00:32:18.260 | Probably I suppose if they're clean.

00:32:19.780 | So I don't know, I love the - what is the normal laundry routine in your family?

00:32:29.380 | How often do you do laundry?

00:32:31.380 | Is it once a week?

00:32:32.460 | Then what's going up once you add a new human into the family?

00:32:38.380 | But or at least there's going to be more of it.

00:32:40.620 | But you know, what makes sense?

00:32:42.660 | What gets us through one cycle?

00:32:46.420 | I know there are a lot of trends in kind of minimalism and everything, you know, a lot

00:32:50.860 | of people in the past few years have talked about Marie Kondo, you know, only keep things

00:32:54.500 | that spark joy.

00:32:56.220 | Are a lot of these different things, do they work together?

00:32:59.780 | Are they different paths, different sex you have to pick one to follow?

00:33:03.420 | Can you mix and match?

00:33:04.420 | Do you have favorites?

00:33:05.420 | How do you think about all that's going on in the kind of broader space?

00:33:08.900 | I think we're all having a similar conversation, but getting there a different way.

00:33:19.060 | I tend to like the questions that I have people ask and the approach that I have people go.

00:33:27.460 | I tend to think, you know, what is my purpose in life and do these possessions help me do

00:33:33.540 | that?

00:33:34.540 | Or are they distracting me from it?

00:33:36.060 | I tend to think that's a better long-term question than does this item spark joy in

00:33:42.940 | the present moment or not?

00:33:44.980 | But that being said, I'm for, like I've said this before, I'm for anyone who can help people

00:33:52.520 | own less stuff.

00:33:53.940 | And if does it spark joy is the question that allows me to start making progress in my home

00:34:00.380 | or Marie is very much category by category as opposed to room by room.

00:34:05.940 | And if that works for you, then I think go for it.

00:34:08.940 | I tend to think that the way I encourage people to do it tends to work a little bit better,

00:34:14.120 | but I think different people can do it in different ways.

00:34:17.980 | And there's different - I think generally we're all talking about owning just the things

00:34:23.180 | you need to own to live your life the best way that you possibly can.

00:34:27.620 | Clearly what that looks like in the end differs from person to person, but that's fine.

00:34:34.180 | We're all coming at it from different viewpoints and we're all different people trying to do

00:34:38.900 | it anyway.

00:34:39.900 | Are there a few examples of the question you like to ask and particular items that you've

00:34:45.740 | talked to people about that kind of might bring an example to light for people?

00:34:50.060 | The questions that I have people ask, number one, do I need it?

00:34:54.300 | Which is pretty common.

00:34:55.660 | Number two, why do I have it?

00:34:59.460 | Number three, do I have - what would I use if I didn't have it?

00:35:04.300 | Tends to be very helpful.

00:35:05.980 | The overarching philosophy for me is, does this item help me fulfill my purpose?

00:35:14.200 | Like what are my greatest goals in life?

00:35:18.900 | Who do I want to be?

00:35:20.100 | What do I want to do?

00:35:21.240 | What are my values?

00:35:23.000 | And then what things do I need to own to help me accomplish those values and accomplish

00:35:29.740 | those goals?

00:35:31.460 | And what are the things that are keeping me from it?

00:35:34.260 | And I learned it really early on.

00:35:38.240 | There's a couple up in Portland called - named Logan and Tammy Strobel, and they had moved

00:35:44.300 | out of their home into a tiny home and there were two of them and they just had two plates

00:35:49.780 | and they had two cups and two forks and like a hundred things between them.

00:35:54.220 | Meanwhile, we were a family of four and we lived in the suburbs of Vermont.

00:35:59.740 | I was working at a church at the time and like we loved having people over for dinner.

00:36:07.060 | I was doing like weddings and so, we'd have like the future newlyweds over, not just to

00:36:12.540 | plan the wedding but to talk about marriage and how to make it successful and we would

00:36:17.380 | always have dinner.

00:36:18.800 | And so, I remember looking at the plates and the cups and the forks and remembering Logan

00:36:25.160 | and Tammy just owned two, I'm like "well, we're a family of four, we need four".

00:36:31.100 | But also having people over is pretty important to us and something that we want to do even

00:36:37.760 | more of, not less of and so, it became "well, let's keep eight plates and let's keep eight

00:36:43.940 | forks and let's keep eight coffee mugs".

00:36:46.220 | You don't need three or four sets of eight plates and eight coffee mugs but if this is

00:36:50.860 | something that we're going to do more of, then certainly we need to have the things

00:36:55.500 | in place to accomplish that more.

00:36:57.980 | Were there a few hard items where you kind of got on the fence about "gosh, this one

00:37:02.460 | I don't know" that maybe went the other way?

00:37:04.540 | I learned a lot about clothes, like really changed the way I dress.

00:37:10.220 | I tend to wear the same thing every single day now, V-neck t-shirt and pants and I never

00:37:18.660 | imagined going into this that I would wear the same thing every single day.

00:37:22.980 | But now that I do, I love it and would never go back to having to decide every morning

00:37:28.220 | what to wear because it's just one less decision that I have to make.

00:37:33.260 | I feel like I could do that and probably do, I think my wife would struggle with that a

00:37:36.740 | lot more.

00:37:37.740 | I think that's - you know, I learned it from a lady, Courtney Carver.

00:37:45.540 | She writes at bemorewithless.com and she lives in Salt Lake City and I learned that whole

00:37:50.900 | idea from her.

00:37:52.540 | So, I hear a lot of "well, that's easy for you because you're a guy" and I always respond

00:37:58.420 | "yeah, but I learned it from a woman".

00:38:00.820 | So, that's always my approach.

00:38:03.860 | Different personalities look at it different ways.

00:38:08.460 | So I want to move on to your new book, you know, which came out, I think by the time

00:38:13.340 | this comes out will be last week, "Things That Matter" and you wrote it to help people

00:38:19.020 | overcome distractions.

00:38:21.420 | How do you think all of the work you did in minimalism and all the learnings you had kind

00:38:26.260 | of brought you to this moment?

00:38:27.980 | Yeah, that's great.

00:38:30.020 | That's a super helpful question because that - minimizing possessions was what sparked

00:38:37.700 | this thinking of "hey, how did - like how did my home fill up with all these things?

00:38:44.700 | Like why did I have boxes full of stuff that I didn't need?

00:38:47.900 | Why did I have minivan loads full of things that I could take to Goodwill or the pregnancy

00:38:53.980 | center?"

00:38:54.980 | I certainly never set out to just spend my life buying a bunch of stuff that I didn't

00:39:01.700 | need.

00:39:02.700 | So, how did this happen?

00:39:04.420 | And like it just struck me that I was just living a pretty unintentional life.

00:39:09.380 | I never would have said my goal was to own a whole bunch of stuff, but that's how I was

00:39:13.260 | living and that's what I was thinking about and that's what I was doing.

00:39:17.340 | And so, I started owning less stuff and seeing how that freed me up to focus more on things

00:39:23.460 | that actually mattered and it occurred to me that possessions, that physical things

00:39:29.820 | aren't the only distraction that can slowly creep into our lives and things that very

00:39:36.600 | subtly begin to shape the way we live or become the things that motivate us rather than longer

00:39:45.660 | lasting pursuits.

00:39:47.100 | And so, the book lists out eight distractions that keep people from things that matter.

00:39:53.760 | And ultimately, I think that we get to the end of our lives and kind of regret some of

00:39:58.940 | the decisions that we made.

00:40:00.540 | So, how do we overcome that regret?

00:40:03.600 | How do we get to the end of our lives feeling the most satisfied and the most fulfilled?

00:40:07.860 | And I think we do that by identifying what is most important and then by daily removing

00:40:14.080 | any distractions that keep us from it.

00:40:17.160 | You highlight eight distractions.

00:40:19.400 | I don't think...

00:40:20.400 | There's an entire book that I would highly recommend anyone listening go and read to

00:40:24.560 | dig into those eight distractions.

00:40:27.200 | But could we kind of run through at a high level what they are so people can get a sense

00:40:30.460 | of kind of ones that might resonate with them and kind of inspire them to want to go pick

00:40:34.760 | up the book and start with the chapter there?

00:40:36.520 | Let me give you the eight distractions that I cover in the book.

00:40:40.720 | Each is a listing of the distraction and then how we begin to overcome them.

00:40:46.480 | Not that there's a three-step approach to overcoming all these things.

00:40:50.880 | These are lifelong pursuits in a lot of ways, but let me give you the eight and then I'm

00:40:54.140 | happy to talk about any one that you want as in-depth as you want.

00:40:58.640 | So, the distractions are fear, past mistakes, happiness, money, possessions, accolades,

00:41:11.440 | leisure and tech.

00:41:14.440 | Those are the eight.

00:41:15.440 | Or trivial.

00:41:16.440 | I like to say trivial more than tech, but same thing.

00:41:22.720 | And is there one that's, you know, maybe it's the most important one to think about or if

00:41:28.000 | you looked at them and said, "God, I have a little bit of all of these I should tackle

00:41:31.880 | first as one to try to kind of overcome"?

00:41:33.920 | I think that probably we all have each of these some degree or another.

00:41:40.720 | We did a survey, a nationwide survey for the book and probably the most, I would say the

00:41:48.840 | most heartbreaking response that we got back was 60% of people say that they are held back

00:42:00.920 | from the future they want because of past mistakes they've committed in their life and

00:42:07.640 | 56% of people say that they are held back from the future they want because of a past

00:42:14.400 | mistake committed against them.

00:42:18.720 | And yeah, that was like almost - it really shook me.

00:42:23.880 | I was pretty emotional when I saw that.

00:42:27.440 | And that's just the people who wouldn't recognize it and articulate it, but like that is a lot

00:42:33.280 | of potential that is being bottled up because of a mistake.

00:42:39.480 | And for someone to live their whole life, like 60% of us would like - we'd say it out

00:42:45.640 | loud that "I can't live the future I want because of something that I did in the past

00:42:50.800 | or something that was done to me in the past".

00:42:54.240 | And so, that's always a big one that I think comes to mind.

00:42:59.640 | Money is a huge one, 80%.

00:43:04.680 | Over 80% of us think we'll be happier if we have more money and 77% of us say that our

00:43:10.640 | desire for money affects our decisions every single day.

00:43:15.040 | And not that - you know, money has a role in our lives but when the desire for money

00:43:24.560 | becomes the thing that dictates our decisions, this is when I think we get to the end and

00:43:32.000 | we're like "What did I waste my life for?"

00:43:34.200 | Like I spent my whole life always needing more and more money all the time when in reality,

00:43:40.120 | I had enough to live the life that I needed and could have been living instead.

00:43:46.260 | We talk a lot about money on the show, so I'd love to dig in a little bit there and

00:43:49.480 | say I imagine a lot of people resonate with that.

00:43:53.700 | My wife and I have this conversation all the time.

00:43:55.640 | It's like "Oh, you know, we got to get to this milestone or this milestone".

00:43:59.780 | And as we think about it, we reflect and say "Well, maybe we don't".

00:44:03.620 | And it's easier to say "You know what?

00:44:05.960 | Maybe money's not going to actually make us happier and maybe we don't need that milestone".

00:44:10.380 | But that doesn't always change how you feel in the moment of seeing something or wanting

00:44:15.120 | something or hearing your friends talk in a certain way.

00:44:19.160 | So how do you go to that next step of "I've acknowledged that maybe money isn't the end

00:44:23.880 | all most important thing to my happiness, but it still kind of gives me angst or kind

00:44:29.920 | of distracts me"?

00:44:31.160 | 90% of Americans say that they have financial-related stress.

00:44:35.920 | This is probably the stat that like really sent me down this road when I read that 90%

00:44:42.880 | of us have financial-related stress and I'm like "We're the wealthiest nation in the history

00:44:49.200 | of the world.

00:44:50.200 | Why are 90% of us stressed about money?

00:44:54.240 | It's not because we don't have food, it's not because we don't have shelter, it's not

00:44:59.760 | because we don't have clothing".

00:45:01.320 | Like certainly some of us don't have those things, but not 90% of us.

00:45:07.040 | And so, I started wondering like "Why is it that we're constantly stressed about money?"

00:45:14.120 | And I've just come to the conclusion that it's because we keep expecting money to provide

00:45:22.240 | something that it's never going to provide.

00:45:26.160 | If we think more money is going to make us happy or that we're finally going to feel

00:45:32.080 | secure with how much money we have and we get this number in our head of "Okay, once

00:45:40.040 | I reach a million dollars or once I start making $60,000 a year or $100,000".

00:45:45.920 | Like we get this picture in our head of how much we need, how much we think people who

00:45:50.620 | make that money are happy or feel secure and then we get there and we don't feel secure

00:45:58.240 | and we don't feel happier, then the thinking never becomes "Hey, maybe I'm just not going

00:46:06.940 | to find security and happiness in money".

00:46:10.800 | Instead the thinking becomes "I just had the wrong number and actually I need this much

00:46:18.200 | money or I need to be making that much money and then I'll finally feel satisfied or secure

00:46:24.680 | or happy".

00:46:26.280 | 87% of millionaires say that they are not wealthy.

00:46:33.580 | And so, the reality is that we need to realize that we're not going to find those things

00:46:41.100 | in money.

00:46:43.160 | And then man, Harvard did this just fascinating study, 100,000 people I think they did in

00:46:49.280 | this study and they were like trying to figure out finally does money bring happiness.

00:46:54.120 | Like there's all these debates of "Oh, $50,000 a year or $75,000 a year or money never really

00:47:00.520 | brings happiness", like what - how do we solve this whole thing?

00:47:04.120 | And they came to the conclusion after interviewing 100,000 people that really the thing that

00:47:14.200 | trips us up is when money becomes the priority in our lives.

00:47:20.960 | Or more specifically, when we start sacrificing time for money or when we start sacrificing

00:47:28.480 | other things that are important to us for the sake of making more money, that this is

00:47:33.800 | when life satisfaction really begins to drop.

00:47:39.540 | And so, coming to the conclusion that "Hey, I have enough money coming in to support my

00:47:47.960 | needs, I don't have to spend every day or I don't have to spend my entire life constantly

00:47:52.920 | wanting or pursuing more and more and more, but I have enough to meet my needs and my

00:47:59.960 | life would be much better served investing my time into other things that actually matter".

00:48:07.680 | I'm not sure if that answered your question, but I got to say a lot of the things that

00:48:10.360 | I like to say.

00:48:11.360 | No, no, I think it's helpful because it's not - if you had just a magical thing that

00:48:16.920 | said, "Oh, you know, if you've decided you don't want to keep up with the Joneses and

00:48:20.320 | you're struggling, drink three Diet Cokes and you'll be fine."

00:48:26.680 | There's not a magical thing you can just start doing all of a sudden to make it go away.

00:48:31.120 | And it sounds like it's really more a process of having a conversation, whether it's with

00:48:35.880 | yourself, your partner, your family, but there's no magic bullet to stop wanting more money

00:48:41.840 | as much as there is a conversation you need to keep thinking about.

00:48:45.160 | I can give you a bullet, give some money away, start giving money away.

00:48:50.320 | Give away $100, give away $50, give away $10, I don't know whatever it is.

00:48:57.920 | Give something away or give away a little bit more than you already do and do it every

00:49:04.040 | single week and find out if you still have food and you still have shelter and you still

00:49:12.140 | have clothing and you will.

00:49:15.560 | And the greatest benefit of generosity, I think, to ourselves is that we realize that

00:49:23.080 | we already have enough, that I can give away $50 a week, I don't know, we're all indifferent.

00:49:32.000 | If someone's really struggling, just $5 a week, like just give away $5 a week.

00:49:37.320 | And when you realize that you've given away $5 a week, every week for two months and you

00:49:42.360 | still have food and you still have shelter, then we realize, okay, not only do I have

00:49:51.100 | enough money coming in, but I have so much money that I can actually give some away to

00:49:58.100 | someone else who needs it.

00:50:00.700 | And I think this then begins to reframe not just how much money we need, but just the

00:50:09.440 | joy that comes from helping someone that's in need, from finding a problem in the world

00:50:17.860 | that we want to solve and not just thinking about it, but actually being a part of the

00:50:22.020 | solution, even if it's just to a small degree.

00:50:25.180 | I think this is how we begin to reshape this constant need for money all the time.

00:50:32.660 | We recently had Adam Nash, who started a company called Daffy, which is a donor advised fund.

00:50:38.980 | But one of the coolest things is they allow you to...

00:50:41.220 | You could just basically give money on a recurring basis.

00:50:44.940 | And you can give it...

00:50:46.500 | They try to separate the idea of where you're giving it from just giving it so you can get

00:50:49.580 | in the habit of being charitable, which I personally really, really like.

00:50:54.020 | You talked a lot about in the book about being generous and how generosity helps and how

00:51:00.340 | acts of service help towards focusing on things that matter.

00:51:03.700 | Are there things other than giving that can kind of help focus less on yourself and more

00:51:10.580 | on others?

00:51:11.580 | Yeah.

00:51:12.580 | Getting out and doing something.

00:51:13.860 | Getting dirt under your fingernails is what I say in the book.

00:51:19.880 | Stop just reading about problems in the world and give something to it or get out and do

00:51:25.860 | something concerning it.

00:51:29.100 | Really, it's a whole - but you could even take it beyond this.

00:51:34.960 | It's just a whole mindset of even going to work on any given day.

00:51:44.600 | What is my goal for the day ahead of me?

00:51:47.360 | If my goal for the day ahead of me is I need to earn the raise or I need to get noticed

00:51:58.040 | by the boss so that I can receive the praise or the accolades.

00:52:02.960 | If every day at work is all about what can I get out of this, that's a completely different

00:52:08.400 | way to approach work than "Hey, how can I just bring benefit to the people around me?

00:52:16.420 | Who can I help today?

00:52:17.920 | Who could I serve today?

00:52:21.340 | Who could I invest into today?"

00:52:23.800 | Not because of something that I'm going to get out of it, but just because it makes the

00:52:27.600 | world a better place by giving or serving or helping.

00:52:33.860 | It's just a very different way to approach life.

00:52:38.800 | I love it.

00:52:39.800 | So, I want to get to the last distraction you had which was around technology or I think

00:52:44.420 | you said earlier, "Trivial things" is that your rephrase of it.

00:52:48.920 | Yeah.

00:52:49.920 | Let's talk about that a little because I think technology and the internet and our phones

00:52:55.400 | have really become a distraction.

00:52:58.000 | I did a whole episode with Nir Eyal, who wrote this book about becoming indistractable.

00:53:04.000 | So we don't necessarily need to go down the "How do you notice in the moment that you're

00:53:07.240 | about to use your phone?" and maybe not do that so you can spend time with your family.

00:53:12.840 | But how is technology preventing us from finding our purpose, from finding the things we care

00:53:18.540 | about and/or as you say, the things that matter?

00:53:21.980 | I like to use the word "the trivial" because we're here today because of technology.

00:53:28.300 | Technology in and of itself isn't the distraction.

00:53:31.460 | I get to do what I do every single day because of technology and we get to be talking to

00:53:36.060 | people all around the world because of technology.

00:53:38.260 | So there's plenty of good to it.

00:53:41.420 | It's just when we become mindless, when we're not - I try to separate like "Am I using technology

00:53:49.140 | to create good into the world or am I just being used by technology for whatever the

00:53:56.500 | platform or app is trying to do?"

00:53:59.820 | So am I creating something or am I scrolling mindlessly or playing a video game or binging

00:54:06.420 | another season of whatever it might be?

00:54:08.740 | That's like - I think that's what becomes the distraction.

00:54:12.100 | So I think it's important to remember that this distraction of the trivial isn't necessarily

00:54:18.340 | new.

00:54:20.100 | I can remember even reading from ancient Rome, like the arguments of not going to the Colosseum

00:54:27.500 | because it was a waste of time from things that actually matter and things that are more

00:54:32.700 | important.

00:54:33.700 | I remember we had the same conversation when television started or radio or even books

00:54:39.380 | probably to some extent.

00:54:41.100 | Like there's always been that distraction of less important things, the urgent tyranny

00:54:50.300 | of the urgent, I think as someone once called it.

00:54:55.180 | But yeah, our tech is certainly much more available than it was ever before and certainly

00:55:03.980 | around us all the time and I just think the way we think about technology and trying to

00:55:11.900 | recognize that "Hey, I can use this for good or I can be used by it" and to separate creation

00:55:20.660 | from consumption online and start to notice "Am I using this to serve my purpose or am

00:55:27.420 | I being used by it?"

00:55:29.980 | You do mention the concept of taking a digital detox if you feel technology is kind of coming

00:55:35.780 | on strong.

00:55:37.700 | Are there things people should think about when that's kind of relevant or when it might

00:55:41.420 | make sense and what is it?

00:55:42.900 | I recommend it for everybody.

00:55:44.300 | I think everybody, certainly anyone who's around technology and feels like it's becoming

00:55:51.060 | a distraction in their life to take some time away.

00:55:55.100 | Take 30 days, take 29 days.

00:55:57.940 | For me, I've done 40 days different times or a couple of weeks.

00:56:01.900 | But pretty much every year, I try to get away because it just helps us understand, I think,

00:56:13.900 | how much time we were wasting on some of that stuff and then when we return it back to our

00:56:21.460 | lives and re-engage it, we do it in a much more intentional way.

00:56:25.180 | Like what did I really miss about being away from social media or what did I really miss

00:56:31.620 | about what apps actually were helpful on my phone and which ones were just distractions

00:56:38.060 | and so, I really think it's the way to reorient.

00:56:42.260 | It's certainly the - I think a pretty important first step for people.

00:56:46.020 | I'm all for, you know, take all the apps off your home screen or wrap a rubber band around

00:56:53.940 | your phone.

00:56:54.940 | Like I'm all in for different hacks and stuff, but really the work that we need to do is

00:57:00.520 | reorient entirely and I think taking a month away.

00:57:06.180 | The summer I think is the best time that you can do that, unless you live in Phoenix like

00:57:11.060 | I do everywhere else.

00:57:12.340 | It's pretty nice.

00:57:14.660 | Take a month and don't watch any television for a month.

00:57:18.180 | Don't use your phone except for anything but phone and text and your email when you're

00:57:22.900 | at work and just do it for a month and see how it makes you feel and what you notice

00:57:29.020 | and what you missed and what was actually essential and what wasn't.

00:57:33.220 | Wow.

00:57:34.220 | For someone who kind of lives multiple jobs on the internet, it seems impossible.

00:57:37.460 | But I will - I sometimes commit to on the spot to things.

00:57:42.420 | I committed to a month of cold showers in an interview.

00:57:45.180 | I am not going to commit to 21 days on the spot, but I will commit to thinking about

00:57:49.780 | it.

00:57:50.780 | There you go.

00:57:51.780 | There you go.

00:57:52.780 | So one thing before we wrap that I'm going to ask is I try to ask everyone for wherever

00:57:57.200 | they are in the world or a city they know well to give everyone some recommendations,

00:58:01.980 | maybe for their summer travels if they end up in that place for, you know, where you

00:58:06.420 | think they should get a bite to eat or have dinner, meet a friend for a drink or a coffee

00:58:11.980 | and something they should do.

00:58:14.100 | You can pick any city you want and I'd love to hear those three things.

00:58:19.220 | I forget the three things, but because the whole time I was thinking we probably shouldn't

00:58:22.880 | come to Phoenix in the summer, but no, if you're in Phoenix, which you should totally

00:58:29.780 | come to, but maybe just not in June, July or August.

00:58:34.420 | There's a little Mexican place called Barrio Cafe and I would send people there.

00:58:41.220 | It's a great little Mexican place.

00:58:44.500 | Probably going to be a long line to get a seat at the table, but it's well worth it.

00:58:49.820 | Barrio Cafe.

00:58:50.860 | You got to go hiking when you're in Phoenix.

00:58:54.140 | Hike up Camelback Mountain and there's two routes up Camelback Mountain.

00:58:58.940 | There's a really strenuous one that literally has you climbing up boulders and then there's

00:59:05.540 | a much more peaceful one.

00:59:07.260 | But that's the hike to do if you're going to be in Phoenix.

00:59:11.820 | That's great.

00:59:12.820 | I will put that on the list.

00:59:15.000 | And before we wrap, we've talked about the book a few times, Things That Matter.

00:59:18.060 | I definitely think people listening should check it out.

00:59:20.860 | Where can people stay on top of everything you're up to online and get in touch?

00:59:25.860 | It's Things That Matter, Overcoming Distraction to Pursue a More Meaningful Life.

00:59:29.900 | You can find it everywhere.

00:59:31.240 | My home base is BecomingMinimalist.com and so you can - anything and everything I do

00:59:38.280 | runs through there.

00:59:39.500 | I should be doing a speaking tour through what I'm calling the Midwest from Omaha and

00:59:46.520 | Chicago, Nashville, Louisville, Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, all the way over to Austin.

00:59:53.600 | So I'll be doing that this summer so people can come join me in July.

00:59:58.780 | Sounds great.

00:59:59.780 | Thank you so much for being here.

01:00:00.780 | Wonderful.

01:00:01.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:02.780 | This has been great.

01:00:02.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:07.780 | Thanks for being here.

01:00:08.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:09.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:10.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:11.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:12.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:13.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:14.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:15.780 | Thanks for having me.

01:00:15.780 | (upbeat music)

01:00:18.360 | (upbeat music)

Minimalism Hacks - Maximize Your Life with Minimal Possessions

Chapters