John Danaher: Grappling, Jiu Jitsu, ADCC, and Animal Combat

00:00:00.000 | A male chimp is more than enough to kill any human

00:00:02.440 | on the planet, including Gordon Ryan.

00:00:04.320 | - So Gordon Ryan fighting a chimp, a good size--

00:00:08.280 | - Did.

00:00:09.120 | - No, a thousand times, how many times does he win?

00:00:11.360 | - He loses a thousand times.

00:00:13.680 | It's not even competitive.

00:00:14.800 | It's not even remotely competitive.

00:00:15.880 | - Do you think he will disagree?

00:00:17.960 | - No.

00:00:19.240 | - Okay.

00:00:20.080 | Do you think anyone will disagree?

00:00:21.560 | Anyone?

00:00:22.400 | - Yeah, morons.

00:00:23.360 | (laughing)

00:00:27.400 | - The following is a conversation with Jon Donaher,

00:00:30.360 | his third time on this podcast.

00:00:32.520 | He's widely considered to be one of the greatest minds

00:00:35.960 | in martial arts history.

00:00:38.040 | This is a Lex Friedman podcast.

00:00:40.360 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:42.400 | in the description.

00:00:43.680 | And now, dear friends, here's Jon Donaher.

00:00:47.600 | The ADCC is the premier submission grappling tournament

00:00:52.040 | in the world.

00:00:53.040 | We just had it a couple of weeks ago.

00:00:55.880 | We saw many demonstrations of greatness

00:00:58.320 | from athletes you coached.

00:01:01.000 | But a year ago, the team and you were at a very low point.

00:01:05.440 | Take me through that journey.

00:01:07.680 | What was the lowest point?

00:01:09.360 | - We had a very, very tight team for many years,

00:01:13.640 | which began in New York City.

00:01:16.480 | During the peak of COVID, training in New York

00:01:19.440 | became very difficult to sustain.

00:01:22.240 | So most of the team despised the city of New York.

00:01:27.240 | I was the only person in the group

00:01:29.640 | that liked living in New York.

00:01:32.040 | I think part of the problem was that I was the only one

00:01:35.040 | who actually lived in Manhattan.

00:01:36.640 | The others had to commute to New York.

00:01:38.880 | And there's a world of difference between living in New York

00:01:41.600 | and commuting to New York.

00:01:43.440 | So most of them had a very negative view of New York City.

00:01:47.200 | That was compounded by COVID,

00:01:49.800 | when even the basic act of training

00:01:51.960 | became very, very difficult.

00:01:54.160 | And so everyone decided they want to leave.

00:01:58.480 | So there was a prospect of a complete breakup

00:02:02.320 | between myself and the team,

00:02:03.920 | or I would have to leave New York.

00:02:05.800 | It was a difficult decision for me to make,

00:02:07.320 | 'cause I'd lived in New York for 30 years.

00:02:10.200 | I'd built my life there

00:02:11.280 | and had most of my friends and associates

00:02:14.160 | that I know here in America were New Yorkers.

00:02:18.360 | So I thought, you know,

00:02:20.080 | these guys have been incredibly loyal to me as students.

00:02:24.440 | So I should also be loyal to them, of course.

00:02:27.240 | So I decided that if they wanted to leave,

00:02:29.440 | I would go with them.

00:02:30.800 | We decided to go to Puerto Rico

00:02:34.040 | because there was a private gym

00:02:36.840 | where we could train through the COVID period.

00:02:39.440 | I personally wanted to go to Texas.

00:02:42.400 | I thought that Texas was a better place for the team to go.

00:02:45.720 | But many of the students,

00:02:48.400 | including senior students like Gordon Ryan, Craig Jones,

00:02:52.360 | had been to Puerto Rico

00:02:53.840 | and stayed with one of the head officials of ADCC, Mo Jassim.

00:02:58.840 | So they loved their experience in Puerto Rico

00:03:03.400 | and almost everyone wanted to go down there.

00:03:07.720 | So I tried to explain to them

00:03:08.920 | there's a world of difference

00:03:09.960 | between going to a place for vacation versus living there.

00:03:13.440 | But that didn't have any effect.

00:03:16.160 | So the decision was made,

00:03:18.200 | a majority decision was made to go to Puerto Rico.

00:03:20.720 | In Puerto Rico,

00:03:25.320 | the conditions in which the team lived

00:03:29.840 | changed significantly.

00:03:31.880 | When you're in New York,

00:03:32.720 | New York is such a big city

00:03:34.620 | that if there's any tension between team members,

00:03:38.720 | and inevitably there will be in a competitive sport

00:03:40.920 | where everyone's fighting each other,

00:03:43.080 | you can kind of bury them in the size of the city

00:03:45.640 | because there's so many distractions in New York.

00:03:47.480 | You come in, you do your workout,

00:03:48.840 | you go outside and it's New York City.

00:03:50.920 | In Puerto Rico,

00:03:53.280 | we lived in a very small local town, Dorado.

00:03:57.800 | And most of the athletes were living with each other.

00:04:01.640 | And so unlike New York where there was always a break,

00:04:05.120 | you trained together,

00:04:06.120 | but when training was over,

00:04:07.440 | you went about your life in New York and New Jersey.

00:04:11.340 | With everyone living in very close proximity to each other,

00:04:15.020 | any tensions got magnified

00:04:18.380 | because there was no relief from them.

00:04:19.740 | You didn't get to get away from people.

00:04:21.860 | If you had a problem with someone on the mat,

00:04:23.740 | well now you had to live with them

00:04:26.020 | for the rest of the day and the night.

00:04:28.980 | And this goes on for long periods of time.

00:04:31.600 | So I believe it had the effect of magnifying

00:04:34.460 | whatever tensions there were.

00:04:36.600 | In particular, there was a family tension

00:04:39.260 | between two brothers, which magnified over time.

00:04:42.480 | And so often as the case,

00:04:47.900 | you get two brothers growing up,

00:04:50.820 | one older, one younger,

00:04:53.020 | and the younger one wants to grow

00:04:56.740 | and feel somewhat like a young tree

00:05:00.180 | underneath a bigger tree.

00:05:01.900 | And sometimes people just need their space.

00:05:05.540 | So there was some unhappiness.

00:05:08.460 | - As a younger brother, I can understand.

00:05:10.500 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:05:11.340 | - As a little tree that had to grow up under a bigger tree.

00:05:14.980 | - Yeah, so--

00:05:16.420 | - Fuck the big tree.

00:05:18.060 | - My God.

00:05:18.900 | - There's a lot of aggression I have to work on, I'm sorry.

00:05:20.780 | - Unresolved family issues coming out here.

00:05:22.900 | - I'm just kidding, I love you.

00:05:24.100 | - He doesn't, he's lying.

00:05:25.360 | So as time went by, these tensions started increasing.

00:05:30.620 | They came to a point where it was difficult

00:05:35.220 | for them even to be in the training room together.

00:05:37.260 | At that point, you're starting to,

00:05:39.020 | once training takes a hit,

00:05:41.580 | then you gotta start to address these.

00:05:43.640 | The attempts at reconciliation fell through

00:05:50.140 | and a decision was made to move to Texas.

00:05:55.140 | I wanted everyone to move as a team.

00:05:58.180 | What I wanted to do was keep the team together

00:06:01.460 | as long as the period leading up to ADCC

00:06:06.020 | so that everyone could train together.

00:06:08.380 | So I said, okay, there's problems,

00:06:09.940 | but let's just tough it out one year.

00:06:11.620 | We move to Texas, let's just go there and keep unity.

00:06:16.620 | If some people don't wanna train with other people,

00:06:18.260 | that's fine, but I believe that the team

00:06:21.300 | would be weakened by breaking apart.

00:06:24.980 | I believe that they had an excellent rapport

00:06:27.020 | as training partners.

00:06:28.060 | Their technical level was increasing dramatically.

00:06:30.540 | Many of the younger athletes

00:06:32.860 | are really starting to come into their own

00:06:34.360 | and really develop well.

00:06:35.900 | And so my take on it was, okay, if there's problems,

00:06:39.540 | so be it, but let's all just stay together

00:06:42.820 | until ADCC 2022 as a unified team.

00:06:46.260 | Go out, prepare yourselves as best you can.

00:06:49.360 | And then after that, we can make a decision

00:06:53.340 | as to whether we break up or not.

00:06:55.620 | But that was rejected and the team split.

00:07:03.500 | They moved to Austin.

00:07:05.860 | We'd made prior arrangements to go to a local gym

00:07:09.980 | and they took that gym and we were left with no gym

00:07:14.980 | and more or less homeless in Austin.

00:07:19.580 | - A year out from ADCC.

00:07:22.020 | - Yes, this is one year out.

00:07:23.220 | So roughly three quarters of the competitive athletes

00:07:26.780 | left in one week.

00:07:30.560 | So at that point, that was probably the lowest point

00:07:33.880 | because at that point,

00:07:35.560 | not only did we not have a place to train,

00:07:38.360 | we had very few training partners

00:07:41.400 | for the few that had remained.

00:07:43.020 | And the main athlete in the team, Gordon Ryan,

00:07:48.920 | was going through a particularly bad spell

00:07:52.000 | with his unresolved stomach issues.

00:07:54.880 | And there was doubt as to whether or not

00:07:56.280 | he could compete at all

00:07:57.800 | and was actively thinking about retiring from the sport.

00:08:01.640 | - So maybe not compete ever again, potentially.

00:08:04.400 | - Yeah, so that was a time when it was like,

00:08:06.120 | man, the whole program seems to be dead in the water

00:08:09.680 | at this point.

00:08:10.520 | Most of the competitive athletes were gone.

00:08:13.240 | There were very few training partners

00:08:14.880 | for the few that remained.

00:08:15.840 | And the main athlete around whom the group

00:08:18.920 | had initially bonded was seemingly out of action,

00:08:23.640 | possibly permanently.

00:08:25.560 | - Where was your mind?

00:08:26.680 | Where were you mentally?

00:08:27.880 | - My thinking is everything bad passes in time.

00:08:33.720 | I've had a lot of bad points in my life.

00:08:36.560 | So my life experience is whenever things seem dark,

00:08:41.560 | have patience.

00:08:44.200 | Time will ultimately cure most ills.

00:08:46.520 | Not all of them, but most of them.

00:08:48.440 | And I'm confident that if you give me

00:08:52.840 | a new crop of students, I can produce magic,

00:08:57.560 | but it's gonna take time.

00:09:00.040 | - So that confidence was in part a source of strength.

00:09:03.120 | - Yes, it's just like, I wasn't confident

00:09:05.800 | that ADCC 2022 would go well

00:09:08.880 | because we only had one year without a gym

00:09:11.920 | and with a team that was completely broken up

00:09:16.480 | to even attempt to get into ADCC.

00:09:22.560 | So things looked a little grim,

00:09:24.920 | but I was confident given enough time,

00:09:26.680 | I'd get in a new group of students and work.

00:09:30.720 | As it turns out, one of the demonstration partners

00:09:37.160 | that I used during filming for instructional videos

00:09:42.200 | who lives in Boston, Giancarlo Badoni,

00:09:45.640 | was interested in the idea of coming down and training,

00:09:49.400 | but he'd always felt like it would be difficult

00:09:51.640 | because there were people in his weight class

00:09:54.440 | who were already there and he felt it would be awkward.

00:09:58.000 | But now that they had left, that opened up an area for him.

00:10:00.800 | So he was the first one to come down.

00:10:02.200 | He moved from Boston to Austin, Texas.

00:10:07.000 | I began teaching at a local school.

00:10:09.160 | It was rather like going back

00:10:10.360 | into my earliest days in Jiu-Jitsu.

00:10:12.040 | I went from teaching at the big Henzo Gracie Academy

00:10:14.920 | to a tiny school in Puerto Rico

00:10:16.560 | and now an even smaller school in Austin, Texas.

00:10:19.360 | And locals would come in and train

00:10:21.360 | and I would watch every day,

00:10:23.600 | teaching there twice a day, seven days a week.

00:10:26.160 | And I would see people come in and train

00:10:28.760 | and I would say, "This guy has some potential

00:10:30.720 | "or this guy has some potential."

00:10:32.600 | And I would recruit people and bring them to another gym

00:10:36.760 | where they would train with the professionals.

00:10:38.360 | And if they proved adept and hardworking

00:10:41.120 | and someone who can work well in a team,

00:10:44.000 | they would stay and build their skills.

00:10:46.600 | As time went by,

00:10:49.240 | more and more such people started coming in.

00:10:51.400 | And we had some remarkable people

00:10:53.320 | like a young South African purple belt, Luke Griffith,

00:10:56.440 | came in.

00:10:57.560 | He had lost in the European trials for ADCC

00:11:02.440 | and he was down on his luck.

00:11:03.720 | He came into Austin.

00:11:04.600 | He did a show against a local purple belt and lost again.

00:11:08.360 | So he was feeling bad about his performance and his future.

00:11:13.040 | He came in and I thought he was a lovely kid

00:11:15.720 | who worked hard and trained well.

00:11:18.080 | So he became one of the main training partners.

00:11:19.800 | He was similar size to Gordon.

00:11:21.720 | So I encouraged him to train with Gordon whenever he could.

00:11:25.080 | And more and more people started coming in to train

00:11:28.680 | under that kind of basis.

00:11:30.160 | One day I got a text from Gordon

00:11:35.480 | who was filming an instructional video in Boston.

00:11:37.680 | He said, "Hey, Nicholas Miragali was training at this.

00:11:41.160 | "He was shooting video at the same time as me

00:11:43.760 | "and we just did some grappling.

00:11:45.680 | "He's a really nice guy

00:11:46.600 | "and he's literally never trained without a gi before."

00:11:50.560 | For those of you who don't know,

00:11:51.520 | Nicholas Miragali is one of the outstanding

00:11:54.440 | gi jiu-jitsu competitors of his generation.

00:11:57.200 | Has an amazing game and is a superstar

00:12:01.760 | with the gi side of the sport.

00:12:04.200 | But had never even trained without a gi once in his life.

00:12:07.840 | So his first ever no-gi training session

00:12:10.800 | is with Gordon Ryan, the best no-gi competitor of all time.

00:12:14.320 | And I remember Gordon texting me saying,

00:12:16.320 | "Hey, he's really talented, he's a nice guy

00:12:17.960 | "and he wants to come down to Texas and train."

00:12:20.760 | So I was like, "Yeah, sounds great."

00:12:23.000 | So over time, just more and more people started coming in.

00:12:26.920 | And I told everyone,

00:12:30.120 | "You guys are at a severe disadvantage.

00:12:33.200 | "You've got very little time to get ready for ADCC."

00:12:36.800 | Luke wasn't even in ADCC, he had to win trials.

00:12:40.080 | Same for Dan Manasoyo, he failed at trials

00:12:43.640 | and needed to get a win to even get into ADCC.

00:12:47.320 | So around this time, a doctor suggested by Mo Jassum,

00:12:53.160 | who himself had stomach issues earlier in his life,

00:12:57.200 | began working with Gordon Ryan.

00:12:59.760 | - And Mo's the organizer of ADCC.

00:13:02.680 | - Yes.

00:13:03.520 | - For people who don't know.

00:13:04.360 | - Yeah, he's the head organizer.

00:13:06.120 | He was able to get Gordon Ryan not cured,

00:13:12.040 | but significantly better than he was before.

00:13:15.160 | And to a level where Gordon could train

00:13:19.880 | up to five to six days a week.

00:13:22.720 | And that was a big improvement on what was going on

00:13:25.400 | during the end of the time in Puerto Rico.

00:13:28.320 | So things started moving.

00:13:30.440 | We had a core group of athletes training at a local gym,

00:13:35.440 | which was very, very generously offered to us

00:13:40.560 | by the head manager of Roka Sunglasses,

00:13:45.560 | a company here in Austin, Texas.

00:13:49.120 | They have a private corporate gym,

00:13:50.960 | which we were able to train in.

00:13:53.320 | And these talented youngsters from around the globe,

00:13:56.520 | essentially, came together and I said,

00:13:58.960 | "You guys are gonna have to train harder

00:14:00.640 | "than you've ever trained in your lives,

00:14:01.840 | "'cause you've got less time to get ready for this

00:14:04.160 | "than anyone, and you're gonna be going up against people

00:14:08.960 | "potentially who know exactly what I teach,

00:14:12.160 | "'cause I've been teaching them a lot longer

00:14:13.520 | "than I've been teaching you."

00:14:15.440 | In addition to the other best people in the world.

00:14:18.520 | So it was an incredible challenge for them.

00:14:22.640 | And I must say, all of them gave

00:14:25.800 | literally everything they had.

00:14:27.400 | Everything I asked for, they gave twice as much.

00:14:30.320 | And we had a crazy training schedule,

00:14:33.040 | as many as three classes per day.

00:14:35.600 | I know that sounds easy, three classes a day,

00:14:38.600 | but try doing it sometime.

00:14:40.520 | These classes are not your average classes.

00:14:42.240 | These are preparation for ADCC.

00:14:44.560 | - So they're both mentally and physically draining.

00:14:47.840 | - Very, very hard.

00:14:49.080 | And we had many people come in

00:14:53.840 | and try to train alongside us,

00:14:56.160 | and they fell off by the side of the road within days.

00:15:00.120 | Forget about weeks, months, or a full year of this.

00:15:05.840 | I gave a very abbreviated set of skills for the athletes.

00:15:10.840 | I chopped everything down to what I believe

00:15:13.640 | were the most essential skills.

00:15:16.560 | Anything that wasn't essential to ADCC preparation

00:15:20.120 | was just pushed aside.

00:15:21.680 | And they had to focus almost entirely on ADCC,

00:15:26.680 | with one exception, I'll come to that soon,

00:15:29.080 | over the period of their training here in Austin.

00:15:33.120 | So it was compacted by time

00:15:36.280 | and also by the breadth of skill that I taught.

00:15:41.040 | Everything was just purely for ADCC preparation.

00:15:44.440 | In a very short period of time,

00:15:46.040 | Dan Manasoyo and Luke Griffith and Oliver Tarza

00:15:50.520 | all won European trials and got into ADCC.

00:15:54.920 | Nicholas Miragalli was already a superstar,

00:15:56.920 | so he was invited, but he had to show himself.

00:15:59.480 | So we enrolled him in local shows here in Austin

00:16:02.880 | where he had his first three no-gi matches.

00:16:06.500 | And with each match, you could see progress being made.

00:16:10.800 | And so that convinced the ADCC people,

00:16:13.640 | okay, he's good enough to compete.

00:16:15.840 | He ended up winning decisively a match

00:16:18.600 | against one of the greatest American grapplers of all time,

00:16:20.960 | Rafael Lovato.

00:16:22.600 | And this was a clear sign that his skill level in no-gi

00:16:26.360 | was sufficient to justify an invite.

00:16:29.920 | And by the way, Lovato had an incredible

00:16:31.920 | set of matches in this ADCC.

00:16:35.440 | - Yes, that was actually very impressive.

00:16:36.760 | - And retired.

00:16:37.840 | - Yeah.

00:16:38.960 | - Which is really impressive and heartbreaking as well.

00:16:43.200 | But if you go out, that's a good way to go out.

00:16:45.720 | - Indeed.

00:16:47.200 | So there was this long and tough preparation,

00:16:51.400 | and it was compounded by the fact

00:16:52.760 | that as Gordon felt better,

00:16:54.080 | he felt a need to build up his own competitive record

00:16:59.760 | prior to ADCC,

00:17:02.440 | because he'd been inactive for so long

00:17:04.200 | with his stomach issue.

00:17:05.680 | So he proposed one of the most ambitious fight camps

00:17:10.680 | that I've ever heard of in grappling,

00:17:12.520 | which was he would take on the current WNO champion,

00:17:16.600 | Pedro Mourinho.

00:17:18.320 | - Who's number one is WNO, yeah.

00:17:20.620 | - And also, I believe, the current no-gi world champion

00:17:24.800 | in IBJJF as a tune-up match, as a warm-up match.

00:17:29.120 | Then he would fight his old nemesis, Felipe Pena,

00:17:33.800 | the only man who submitted Gordon at black belt

00:17:36.480 | and had defeated Gordon in an ADCC match in 2017.

00:17:41.480 | And then ADCC itself.

00:17:43.680 | So there was gonna be three big high-profile matches

00:17:47.120 | back to back,

00:17:48.520 | and very different rule sets.

00:17:52.680 | So WNO was a 15-minute match.

00:17:55.600 | The fight with Felipe Pena was no time limit,

00:17:58.220 | which is a very different format to compete in,

00:18:01.760 | and then ADCC.

00:18:03.280 | So we had to drag out a 14-week camp

00:18:06.120 | covering three matches with three different rule sets,

00:18:08.480 | which went in diametrically opposite directions.

00:18:11.680 | And the entire team had to go through all of this

00:18:16.240 | over this 14-week period,

00:18:18.400 | in addition to the previous year

00:18:20.820 | that they had been working hard.

00:18:22.640 | There was a further complication in the midst of all this.

00:18:26.600 | Nicholas Miragalli had to go to the Ghee World Championships,

00:18:29.920 | and we had to throw an extra morning class for that

00:18:33.260 | to help him get ready.

00:18:35.300 | Nicholas went on to win the openweight gold medal

00:18:38.280 | in the Ghee competition,

00:18:39.740 | and then the next day had to come back to Texas

00:18:42.100 | and begin his ADCC preparation.

00:18:43.760 | It was a crazy, crazy time.

00:18:45.840 | But they all came through it so well.

00:18:49.340 | I'm immensely proud of what they did.

00:18:51.620 | And shockingly, in the space of less than 12 months,

00:18:56.500 | we went from rock bottom

00:18:58.400 | to having a more successful ADCC team performance

00:19:03.400 | than we did the previous ADCC.

00:19:06.260 | It was, in fact,

00:19:09.080 | the most successful team performance of the event,

00:19:11.560 | and as testimony to how hard those young men worked

00:19:16.200 | in the course of less than a year to prepare themselves.

00:19:20.000 | - If we could just linger on the low point,

00:19:25.340 | is it heartbreaking to you

00:19:26.640 | that the so-called Donahoe Death Squad split,

00:19:31.480 | or the team as it was originally called split?

00:19:34.160 | You know, we live a short life on this earth,

00:19:38.560 | and you put so much of your love and work into this team,

00:19:41.600 | and everybody put in the work.

00:19:43.200 | Does it break your heart?

00:19:44.560 | - It was a sad time, yeah, it was.

00:19:46.660 | It was, you know, I'm not a particularly emotional person,

00:19:52.560 | but it was an emotional time for everyone.

00:19:54.960 | It was, it had an element of tragedy insofar as,

00:19:58.080 | not only was it a team breakup,

00:19:59.720 | it was also a family breakup, which is much more serious.

00:20:02.560 | I do believe that in time,

00:20:08.040 | even the most intense family breakups can be reconciled.

00:20:16.880 | And I also believe that once dialogue begins,

00:20:20.920 | people will remember just how easy it was

00:20:24.960 | for us to get along and how tight we were

00:20:27.200 | for many, many years.

00:20:28.620 | It's so easy to let a minute of anger

00:20:33.640 | destroy 10 years of friendship.

00:20:38.640 | So, but there's also the weight of those 10 years.

00:20:43.400 | Like when I ran into the old squad members at ADCC,

00:20:48.120 | we got along like a house on fire.

00:20:49.680 | It's like we never had a problem.

00:20:51.840 | - A house on fire is a good thing.

00:20:54.040 | - Yes, yes, sorry, that's a New Zealand expression, yeah.

00:20:56.880 | Yeah, that definitely could have gone the other way, right?

00:21:02.440 | So-- - Only a New Zealander

00:21:03.880 | would say that is a good thing, yeah.

00:21:05.720 | - So there's, I still believe, you know,

00:21:10.080 | in time things will be fine,

00:21:11.800 | but there was an element where youngsters need to grow.

00:21:17.640 | And sometimes, think about it this way,

00:21:22.640 | from the athlete's perspective,

00:21:25.800 | there's definitely a generational problem.

00:21:29.400 | I'm much older than my students, okay?

00:21:31.520 | And the years and the viewpoint that I have

00:21:34.800 | is a reflection of the time in which I grew up.

00:21:37.600 | And they're from a completely different generation

00:21:41.920 | with a completely different worldview.

00:21:45.560 | It's gotta be hard from the athlete's perspective

00:21:48.680 | when you're training seven days a week

00:21:51.600 | and you're getting very, very good.

00:21:54.120 | You're beating everyone that's getting put in front of you.

00:21:58.080 | You're losing very, very rarely,

00:21:59.800 | and it's always a tough competitive match when you do.

00:22:02.640 | Everyone around you is calling you a superstar.

00:22:05.120 | And you look phenomenal.

00:22:07.680 | You check social media,

00:22:10.640 | everyone's saying you're a god on the mat.

00:22:13.400 | And then you come into the gym

00:22:14.480 | and there's some old guy telling you you're not good enough.

00:22:17.240 | And every day it's like,

00:22:21.120 | well, what does this guy want from me?

00:22:22.880 | How hard do I have to work?

00:22:24.720 | Like, you're not good enough.

00:22:26.080 | Like, I want you to be the best in the world.

00:22:28.040 | I want you to be good, I want you to be great.

00:22:30.840 | And all of your friends are telling you all day,

00:22:32.280 | man, you're incredible, you submit me so easily to do this.

00:22:35.000 | And then this old guy's just saying,

00:22:36.280 | nah, you gotta get better, you gotta work more.

00:22:39.600 | You're not working hard enough.

00:22:43.280 | At some point, you're gonna be like,

00:22:44.480 | you know what, fuck this old guy.

00:22:46.080 | Like, it's tough.

00:22:48.040 | You know, mentally, I get why they left.

00:22:51.680 | When I was 20 years old,

00:22:53.320 | I didn't get along with the authority figures at all.

00:22:56.240 | And to have someone telling you,

00:22:59.560 | you've always gotta work that little bit harder,

00:23:01.520 | though your skillset's not complete,

00:23:03.040 | you still need this, this, and this,

00:23:04.720 | when you're already doing very, very well,

00:23:08.040 | and far better than all but a tiny, tiny percentage

00:23:11.640 | of people, and then you've got this guy

00:23:14.600 | just constantly telling you, no, more has to be done.

00:23:17.840 | You're not there yet.

00:23:18.920 | I can, you know, of course I understand.

00:23:22.440 | Let me just enjoy this more.

00:23:25.080 | Like, it's always a choice in life.

00:23:28.200 | You can be the best you possibly can,

00:23:30.800 | or you can go a route where you just get

00:23:33.880 | to enjoy life a little more.

00:23:35.080 | You do other things, you know,

00:23:36.280 | like there's more to life than just the inside of a gym

00:23:39.080 | and learning how to do a better heel hook

00:23:41.000 | or a better double leg.

00:23:42.240 | So of course, you know, years go by,

00:23:46.240 | you wanna try other things,

00:23:47.560 | and you have to make this choice in life

00:23:51.320 | between extreme excellence versus being incredibly good,

00:23:55.900 | but maybe just enjoying my life a little more.

00:23:58.200 | - It's so interesting that incredibly good

00:24:00.000 | is a hard thing to deal with.

00:24:01.640 | I saw, like, when Kayla Harrison won her first gold medal

00:24:05.680 | at the Olympics, you know, to go back to the gym

00:24:09.680 | and to trust, again, maybe the old man,

00:24:12.600 | you're being too harsh on yourself,

00:24:15.560 | but to trust the old man.

00:24:17.160 | So Jimmy Page, you're on Jimmy Page,

00:24:18.920 | you're senior in that case, to say,

00:24:21.280 | "Okay, we're gonna go back to this grind."

00:24:24.400 | And there's still a path to improvement.

00:24:27.380 | There's still a lot to grow and still have the humility,

00:24:30.600 | even though you've just demonstrated greatness.

00:24:33.280 | So really good is just a stepping stone to greatness.

00:24:39.280 | That's really tough for athletes.

00:24:41.840 | Like, winning is actually very difficult.

00:24:44.320 | Gold medals are very difficult.

00:24:45.880 | Plus there's the personal stuff of depression

00:24:47.960 | that comes with that, which is you give so much of yourself

00:24:51.320 | to trying to win that.

00:24:52.960 | And once you do, there's a lot of personal stuff

00:24:56.280 | you have to deal with, which is like,

00:24:59.000 | what do I want from life?

00:25:01.300 | To understand what is exactly what am I chasing?

00:25:04.560 | Is it just winning,

00:25:05.740 | or is it some bigger picture of excellence

00:25:08.680 | that's beyond just winning?

00:25:10.560 | So all of that mixed up together.

00:25:12.920 | And then when you have to be, as a team,

00:25:14.840 | really close together, there's the personal relationships,

00:25:18.080 | all of that gets exacerbated.

00:25:20.560 | Do you think the team ever gets back together?

00:25:22.860 | - I think there's definitely a chance of that.

00:25:27.120 | Right now, I think they have an excellent team themselves,

00:25:30.440 | and they're doing very well.

00:25:32.480 | They had an excellent performance at ADCC.

00:25:34.680 | So there's not a need for them to come to us.

00:25:39.300 | It's not like they lack anything.

00:25:40.660 | They still remember everything I taught them.

00:25:42.080 | They still coach and teach

00:25:43.660 | with the same methodology that I taught them.

00:25:46.080 | So I don't think they have any need to do so.

00:25:50.040 | If they did, it would be because they wanted to.

00:25:53.220 | I still think many of the same personality conflicts

00:25:56.880 | that originated the conflict would reemerge currently

00:26:00.380 | if they started training together.

00:26:03.120 | - By the way, to pile on the compliments,

00:26:04.860 | they have really nice merch too.

00:26:06.220 | The t-shirts are just excellent.

00:26:07.820 | What have you learned from that process

00:26:11.500 | about how to have a team with personal conflicts?

00:26:14.700 | Do you have to deal with these giant egos as well?

00:26:17.340 | - Yeah.

00:26:18.180 | - 'Cause the ego is in part a superpower too,

00:26:20.140 | so you don't wanna-

00:26:21.260 | - Yeah, you don't wanna suppress egos.

00:26:23.780 | I always laugh when people say,

00:26:25.020 | "Leave your ego at the door."

00:26:26.580 | It's like, what do you think drives competition?

00:26:30.340 | If you wanna be good at anything in life,

00:26:31.580 | you gotta have an ego.

00:26:33.620 | No, I don't believe it's good or even a healthy thing

00:26:38.620 | to suppress egos.

00:26:40.540 | I'm a realist and I understand that this is a sport

00:26:43.460 | where they make one gold medal per weight division.

00:26:46.340 | As guys get better, they're gonna be looking

00:26:48.820 | at their training partners and thinking like,

00:26:51.660 | I'm gonna have to fight this guy one day.

00:26:53.780 | And they're training next to each other.

00:26:56.300 | Of course, there's gonna be tension.

00:26:58.740 | There's always gonna be disagreements

00:27:01.620 | about what's the right way to act around certain people,

00:27:06.620 | certain issues, and people are gonna come into conflict.

00:27:09.820 | Everyone's being programmed to be an alpha competitor.

00:27:14.820 | You get a room full of people like that,

00:27:16.500 | there's gonna be conflict.

00:27:18.140 | Now, your question was,

00:27:19.300 | well, is there a way to resolve this?

00:27:21.180 | Yeah, there was.

00:27:22.020 | And for eight to nine years,

00:27:24.420 | I was very successful with this.

00:27:26.420 | But there's also a tipping point

00:27:28.600 | where things can flare out of control

00:27:31.100 | and there will be periodic breakups.

00:27:33.180 | You're not the first students I had that left.

00:27:35.380 | I've been coaching a lot longer

00:27:36.500 | than I've been coaching the squad.

00:27:38.540 | And I'm sure in the future,

00:27:42.580 | there'll be other students who leave me.

00:27:44.980 | That's just the nature of the beast.

00:27:47.100 | It's sad when it happens, but life goes on.

00:27:49.800 | - Like Bukowski said, love is a fog that fades

00:27:54.980 | with the first daylight of reality or something like that.

00:27:59.100 | So even love is temporary.

00:28:02.040 | Let me ask you about leading up the preparation

00:28:07.500 | for the athletes.

00:28:09.340 | I mean, this is such, given the darkness from a year ago

00:28:14.100 | from which you had to find glimmers of light

00:28:16.280 | and try to get greatness out of athletes,

00:28:19.240 | what was the mental preparation like?

00:28:21.380 | For Gordon, for Nicholas, for Giancarlo,

00:28:25.580 | for the other athletes,

00:28:26.780 | what was the mental side of things like?

00:28:29.420 | Is there some key insights you can give

00:28:31.820 | to their mental preparation?

00:28:33.220 | - I really think that people,

00:28:35.500 | when they talk about mental preparation,

00:28:38.400 | need to take a step back and realize

00:28:40.060 | that almost every element of what people describe

00:28:43.460 | as mental preparation has physical underpinnings.

00:28:46.440 | Literally 95% of what I teach the athletes

00:28:52.980 | is physical skills.

00:28:55.460 | And it's my belief that every mental aspect of competition,

00:29:00.460 | the most important, which will be confidence on stage,

00:29:04.220 | is a direct result of the accumulation of physical skills.

00:29:09.220 | People tend to see things like confidence

00:29:14.140 | as a mental state.

00:29:16.280 | It is, but it comes out of the performance

00:29:22.100 | of physical skills.

00:29:24.100 | All my life, I've seen sports psychologists

00:29:29.100 | try to create confidence in athletes

00:29:33.260 | through non-physical means.

00:29:35.540 | And it always ends up being the same kind

00:29:37.540 | of cheesy motivational speeches,

00:29:39.500 | highlight video reels where they try

00:29:43.260 | to pump artificial confidence into people.

00:29:47.460 | And I've never been impressed by this,

00:29:51.060 | nor have I seen it have any kind of positive effect

00:29:53.540 | on athlete performance.

00:29:55.940 | What I do see build confidence is the sense

00:29:59.420 | that athletes are developing skills

00:30:02.780 | and using them successfully under conditions

00:30:05.860 | that closely mirror the event they're preparing for.

00:30:09.220 | Once they get this down,

00:30:12.040 | that's where true confidence comes from.

00:30:14.740 | Confidence doesn't come from words,

00:30:16.660 | it comes from accumulated skills,

00:30:18.860 | which experience shows you have been responsible

00:30:23.860 | for successful performances in the past.

00:30:27.060 | And if you accumulate enough of these,

00:30:28.660 | your confidence rises.

00:30:30.820 | So when it comes to the mental aspects of competition,

00:30:34.940 | I created a program where everyone was given a set

00:30:38.660 | of skills that they had to work on,

00:30:40.700 | skills directly related to what I believe

00:30:42.540 | is the most important elements of success

00:30:44.740 | in ADCC competition.

00:30:46.940 | In the gym, they accumulated those skills over time.

00:30:51.100 | I do it in two different ways,

00:30:53.140 | depending on whether these are offensive skills

00:30:55.100 | or defensive skills.

00:30:56.900 | For the accumulation of offensive skills,

00:30:59.100 | I like to have my athletes work with athletes

00:31:01.340 | who are lesser than themselves in ability,

00:31:04.740 | so that they start to gain confidence over time.

00:31:08.700 | Just as you would never send a beginner

00:31:10.300 | into a weightlifting gym and put 500 pounds on the bar

00:31:12.940 | and tell them to lift it.

00:31:14.220 | Rather you would start with a wooden bar,

00:31:16.980 | then the metal bar,

00:31:17.900 | and then gradually accumulate weight over time

00:31:19.660 | so you get a progression in weightlifting.

00:31:22.460 | So too in jiu-jitsu, you don't take a brand new move

00:31:25.700 | and say, "Okay, do it on Gordon Ryan."

00:31:27.940 | Never gonna succeed.

00:31:29.140 | I have the athletes practice their offense on blue belts

00:31:33.740 | and work their way up.

00:31:34.860 | Defense, on the other hand,

00:31:38.140 | you've got to start them in the deep end of the pool

00:31:41.020 | so that they start to see what are their vulnerabilities.

00:31:44.620 | So I put them with highly competitive athletes

00:31:46.500 | at the start so they can see,

00:31:47.780 | "Okay, there is a problem here."

00:31:49.460 | And then even in defense,

00:31:51.020 | they start off with lower belts

00:31:53.460 | and build up their confidence over time.

00:31:56.380 | So just as a weightlifter builds up his ability

00:31:59.700 | to build weight, sorry, to lift weight over time,

00:32:02.900 | so too a jiu-jitsu player does it

00:32:05.340 | by gradually increasing resistance.

00:32:08.540 | Now in jiu-jitsu, resistance is not done by weight,

00:32:10.820 | it's done by skill level.

00:32:12.500 | And so over time,

00:32:14.300 | they started to accumulate this experience.

00:32:16.460 | In time, we were able to switch off

00:32:22.900 | and have them go against very, very tough athletes,

00:32:26.460 | each other.

00:32:27.380 | So Luke Griffith will do a full power match

00:32:31.180 | with Gordon Ryan.

00:32:32.340 | Now they're fully aware that there's no one better

00:32:35.540 | in the world than Gordon Ryan.

00:32:37.660 | So if you have a competitive match with Gordon Ryan,

00:32:40.780 | that's a very, very healthy sign.

00:32:43.660 | So they went from the start

00:32:45.380 | where they were being programmed

00:32:46.940 | going against relatively mild resistance

00:32:49.340 | and building up over time,

00:32:50.780 | and then building up to the greatest resistance possible

00:32:53.580 | in the sport of jiu-jitsu.

00:32:55.500 | And their goal is not to win, obviously,

00:32:57.700 | but their goal is to provide a competitive match.

00:33:01.260 | Now, Gordon doesn't have any confidence issues.

00:33:03.380 | So for him, it's just good, hard competitive training

00:33:06.540 | against people that are in some ways better than those

00:33:10.940 | you'll be facing in competition.

00:33:12.860 | For the other guys, it's getting a clear assessment

00:33:15.940 | of what their current skill level is

00:33:18.180 | by going against the best there is.

00:33:20.700 | Then we add to this a competitive schedule

00:33:23.020 | where the athletes have to go out into competition

00:33:25.180 | so they get used to the idea of performing

00:33:26.860 | in front of strangers on stage,

00:33:29.900 | getting used to the strange elements of going out,

00:33:34.140 | being observed and judged by people you don't know

00:33:37.260 | in a performance atmosphere.

00:33:39.540 | And so they were all given matches

00:33:41.580 | and WNO competition leading up to the event,

00:33:45.300 | ADCC trials, local grappling events here in Austin,

00:33:49.660 | and given a competitive schedule to fight

00:33:51.740 | and prepare them for ADCC.

00:33:53.660 | Obviously, as ADCC got closer and closer,

00:33:55.860 | this was pulled back because of the danger of injury.

00:33:58.620 | So within about three weeks out

00:34:00.780 | was the last time we had a competition.

00:34:03.380 | And by this method, confidence starts to grow.

00:34:06.660 | And so the mental preparation

00:34:10.220 | came out of those physical underpinnings,

00:34:12.020 | the idea of progressive resistance increasing over time

00:34:15.300 | for both offense and defense,

00:34:18.140 | building up to a peak where they go in

00:34:19.780 | against the best athlete in the world

00:34:21.660 | so they can get an accurate assessment of where they stand.

00:34:24.580 | Once you're given a competitive match

00:34:26.140 | to the best guy in the world,

00:34:27.620 | you know damn well that when you go out in ADCC,

00:34:30.140 | you're ready to fight anybody.

00:34:32.260 | - And defense is broadly defined.

00:34:34.460 | So defense in symmetrical positions,

00:34:38.460 | like positions like guard,

00:34:40.860 | and then defense also includes

00:34:42.700 | escaping from horrible positions.

00:34:44.420 | - Yes, we're big believers in the idea of depth of defense.

00:34:47.980 | The idea that you should be able to mount defense

00:34:50.980 | all the way through from early stages

00:34:52.580 | based mostly around anticipation

00:34:54.860 | of identifying danger visually before it emerges,

00:34:58.380 | and all the way through to the deepest levels of defense

00:35:00.740 | where you are 100% defensive in terrible positions,

00:35:04.900 | and you have to claw your way out over time

00:35:08.420 | and get back to a neutral position,

00:35:10.060 | or even better, back to an attacking position.

00:35:12.620 | - You have an Instagram post on this topic.

00:35:15.020 | When you get ready to step out

00:35:18.740 | for the biggest moment of your life,

00:35:20.900 | ask yourself one question.

00:35:23.020 | How different is this really from what I do every day?

00:35:26.500 | If the answer's not very different at all,

00:35:28.980 | then step forward with confidence,

00:35:31.460 | and do what you do every day in the same manner,

00:35:33.860 | and ignore the hype and distraction.

00:35:35.860 | You're ready for action.

00:35:37.220 | By the way, for people who don't know,

00:35:38.460 | you need to follow @donahardjohn on Instagram,

00:35:42.620 | 'cause you have nuggets,

00:35:46.260 | or large buckets of nuggets of wisdom, often,

00:35:50.180 | which is quite profound, even bigger than jiu-jitsu.

00:35:52.980 | But anyway, so there's some aspect

00:35:55.380 | where you want to mimic the conditions

00:35:57.540 | of your daily training in intensity,

00:36:02.100 | and in what force, or physical,

00:36:04.860 | to that of the actual matches.

00:36:08.500 | - You asked a question about mental training.

00:36:10.260 | For me, the central focus of whatever small amount

00:36:14.700 | of mental training I give my students

00:36:16.100 | comes down to a very, very simple concept to understand.

00:36:19.680 | This is the idea of identifying competition

00:36:24.340 | in terms of its normalcy.

00:36:27.100 | Most people see training and competition

00:36:30.700 | as two different things.

00:36:31.540 | Training is normal activity that you do every day,

00:36:34.420 | and competition is the exception.

00:36:36.540 | Okay, it's different.

00:36:37.460 | You're going out, there's people watching you.

00:36:39.340 | There's a big crowd, they're making lots of noise.

00:36:41.840 | In fact, the promoters of shows

00:36:46.940 | go out of their way to reinforce this.

00:36:50.140 | Look at, for example, ADCC,

00:36:52.000 | when Gordon Ryan went to fight Andre Galvan.

00:36:54.420 | Okay, do they just come out on the mat and fight each other?

00:36:57.420 | Absolutely not.

00:36:58.260 | There's music, there's pageantry, there's fireballs.

00:37:02.060 | They're literally shooting fireballs.

00:37:03.820 | - Yeah, some dude in a tie sitting with Joe Rogan.

00:37:07.340 | - I heard about that guy.

00:37:08.180 | - Some meathead podcaster, comedian, whatever.

00:37:12.380 | - Which one was the meathead?

00:37:14.340 | - Well played, John Donahue, well played.

00:37:17.300 | - But you see what they're trying to do.

00:37:18.440 | They're trying to create theater and pageantry,

00:37:20.880 | when in fact, it's just a grappling match.

00:37:22.700 | It's just two athletes, a referee and a rule set.

00:37:26.460 | That's the reality.

00:37:28.300 | Now what they try to sell you is something

00:37:30.580 | which is not reality,

00:37:31.900 | which is this is somehow bigger and different.

00:37:34.200 | And they reinforce this with pageantry and theater

00:37:38.800 | so that it becomes not just a grappling match,

00:37:40.860 | but a grappling performance,

00:37:42.500 | the same way you have a theater performance.

00:37:45.180 | And my goal as a coach is to dispel that

00:37:48.700 | and say when you go out there,

00:37:51.500 | there's only one reality,

00:37:53.500 | you, him and the referee reinforcing a rule set, that's it.

00:37:58.500 | Everything else you see, the smoke, the fire,

00:38:01.620 | the music is an illusion.

00:38:03.600 | And it's put there intentionally

00:38:05.980 | to make you feel a certain kind of way.

00:38:08.660 | And your whole goal is to see this as an illusion

00:38:11.780 | and walk out and see only the reality,

00:38:14.060 | which is that this is the same damn thing

00:38:16.300 | you do every day in the gym.

00:38:18.580 | The only difference is you're going with a guy

00:38:21.020 | you've never grappled before.

00:38:22.740 | - So the actual act of removing the illusion

00:38:25.460 | or realizing that it is an illusion,

00:38:28.180 | how do you practice that?

00:38:29.500 | So when you step on the mat--

00:38:30.620 | - Once you're aware of it, I always have them,

00:38:33.180 | it's like when you see a magician

00:38:37.900 | and you have his tricks explained to you,

00:38:40.140 | you never see the magic again.

00:38:44.260 | The first time you see a good card trick

00:38:45.860 | from a good magician, it's oh my God.

00:38:48.500 | Then when they explain it to you,

00:38:49.820 | I did this, this, and this, step one, step two,

00:38:52.820 | then you look at it like, it's not that special.

00:38:55.220 | And when you explain to people

00:38:59.780 | this idea of the pageantry as an illusion,

00:39:02.120 | then just as when you watch the magician

00:39:05.980 | and you learn the trick, all the magic flies out the window,

00:39:10.180 | so too with the nervous response.

00:39:12.580 | - So that's for the pageantry,

00:39:13.660 | but what about maybe the physical intensity of competition?

00:39:18.340 | Isn't there an extra--

00:39:21.740 | - No, it's the same in every competition.

00:39:23.900 | It's not like they're twice as strong

00:39:26.500 | in ADCC as they are in the IBJF World Championships.

00:39:30.820 | The physical intensity is always pretty much the same.

00:39:33.060 | They experience it every day in the gym.

00:39:35.300 | If you go out and you grapple Gordon Ryan,

00:39:40.740 | it's not like the next guy you grapple

00:39:41.980 | is gonna be twice as strong as him or twice as fast.

00:39:44.740 | He's gonna be a little stronger, a little faster,

00:39:47.180 | but not so much so that it completely changes

00:39:49.820 | your approach to the game.

00:39:51.120 | There's not that much difference

00:39:53.940 | between the human bodies out there on the stage.

00:39:56.060 | So if you've felt intensity before,

00:39:58.260 | you're not gonna be shocked by ADCC.

00:40:00.020 | - But in terms of in training,

00:40:02.580 | do you have to try to match the intensity of competition?

00:40:05.020 | - No, that would be foolish.

00:40:07.220 | Every athlete in the gym would be injured.

00:40:09.180 | You can do it for short periods of time,

00:40:11.180 | but the training has to be carefully monitored

00:40:15.180 | in terms of intensity levels.

00:40:17.100 | We're training seven days a week,

00:40:18.980 | a minimum of twice a day.

00:40:20.460 | You've gotta keep things under wraps.

00:40:25.300 | Every other workout, you can have one of the five rounds

00:40:29.420 | can be full power, but not seven days a week,

00:40:32.980 | three times a day.

00:40:33.820 | That's just gonna break bodies.

00:40:35.660 | - And the full power is just a reminder of--

00:40:38.980 | - It's more about skill development.

00:40:40.660 | For us, it always comes back to skill development.

00:40:42.780 | - But what about matching the feeling

00:40:46.900 | of the intensity of competition?

00:40:48.820 | - Yeah, periodically.

00:40:50.980 | - Periodically, rarely. - But it can't be

00:40:52.300 | every single time.

00:40:53.500 | Not really, it's not rare.

00:40:54.940 | - Meaning like one--

00:40:58.180 | - Out of three hours of hard sparring per day,

00:41:02.860 | 15 minutes might be 100% full power.

00:41:06.780 | That way, that's more than enough

00:41:09.420 | to get psychologically ready for the intensity of conflict,

00:41:12.620 | but won't break your body over time.

00:41:16.540 | - Intensity of conflict, that's well put.

00:41:18.540 | Competition, doesn't it have that extra level of animosity?

00:41:23.220 | It's a little bit more conflict than it is--

00:41:26.940 | - It can.

00:41:27.780 | Sometimes there's personality differences.

00:41:29.420 | For example, like Gordon Ryan and Felipe Pena,

00:41:31.980 | they admire each other a lot.

00:41:33.100 | They respect each other's skills,

00:41:34.300 | but they certainly don't love each other, that's for sure.

00:41:39.940 | So there can be certain matchup

00:41:41.980 | where there's more intensity.

00:41:43.780 | But then there's other matchups

00:41:46.380 | where the two athletes come out

00:41:48.420 | and it's no more intense than a hard sparring session.

00:41:52.460 | - So first of all, 'cause I would love to look

00:41:56.140 | at a couple of matches with you.

00:41:57.500 | And before that, let me say big thank you to Flow Grappling

00:42:02.180 | for first of all, helping the sport of grappling

00:42:06.700 | and jujitsu in general by having organized footage

00:42:10.700 | and tournaments that sort of show the sport

00:42:17.140 | in its best light to the world.

00:42:18.580 | And they do an incredible job of that.

00:42:20.260 | So if you're interested in supporting grappling

00:42:22.780 | as a sport, helping it grow,

00:42:24.740 | you should definitely support Flow Grappling.

00:42:26.380 | Go to their website, sign up.

00:42:27.940 | Also Flow Wrestling, I'm a huge fan of wrestling.

00:42:30.900 | So maybe there'll be a Flow Judo at some point.

00:42:34.700 | They don't currently, I don't think,

00:42:36.100 | do any major judo stuff.

00:42:38.340 | So anyway, I'm a big supporter of theirs

00:42:41.100 | and I do have criticism that they know about,

00:42:46.060 | which is I hope they continue to improve

00:42:48.980 | on the aspect of making the footage discoverable

00:42:52.060 | and accessible, making it easy for you to do search

00:42:55.340 | through Google and on their website to find matches,

00:42:58.340 | to get excited.

00:43:00.180 | Like if me and Joe Rogan are getting excited

00:43:02.540 | about a particular match,

00:43:03.420 | we wanna be able to pull it up super quickly.

00:43:05.420 | Wanna be able to pull up Gordon Ryan's matches

00:43:08.460 | super quickly from ADCC, make it super easy to show

00:43:11.620 | and share if we have to pay for it, fine,

00:43:14.340 | but make it easy.

00:43:15.740 | And when you sign up for Flow, it should be one click,

00:43:20.140 | not five clicks.

00:43:21.260 | It should be one click.

00:43:22.260 | It should be easy.

00:43:23.340 | I think it's inexpensive.

00:43:26.140 | If you care about grappling,

00:43:27.300 | it's definitely worth it, you should sign up.

00:43:28.900 | Anyway, my love goes out to Flow Grappling

00:43:31.740 | and also my love goes out to Moe Jassim, as we said.

00:43:35.660 | He's the organizer of ADCC.

00:43:38.580 | The next one is in 2024.

00:43:40.660 | - It should be 2024.

00:43:42.140 | - Well, you should follow ADCC_official on Instagram

00:43:46.500 | and just send as much love towards Moe and ADCC in general.

00:43:50.020 | It's the, like I said, the most prestigious,

00:43:53.500 | it's like where the best grapplers in the world show up.

00:43:55.660 | And the magic happens.

00:43:57.460 | It's like some of the most historic matches

00:44:00.260 | in grappling and jiu-jitsu ever happened on that stage.

00:44:04.660 | Anyway, if I could talk about some

00:44:08.220 | of the interesting performances for the athletes you coach,

00:44:12.140 | you post on Instagram, let's start with Gordon Ryan.

00:44:15.300 | Gordon Ryan, ADCC 2022.

00:44:19.180 | The greatest event in grappling history is over.

00:44:21.860 | New stars emerged, established stars shone bright again,

00:44:25.740 | but one man stood above all like a colossus,

00:44:29.060 | Gordon Ryan.

00:44:30.340 | You have a way with words, John Donner.

00:44:32.780 | I have seen many incredible feats of grappling,

00:44:35.340 | but I've never saw a performance like this.

00:44:37.500 | For many, Mr. Ryan is a polarizing figure in the sport.

00:44:40.540 | For many others, an inspiration to look up to.

00:44:43.060 | But after this weekend, there was no disagreement

00:44:45.500 | amongst haters and fans about his merit.

00:44:48.260 | He is the best ever.

00:44:51.060 | It was a long and difficult journey to ADCC 2022.

00:44:54.700 | Just one year ago, and so on as you told the story,

00:44:58.540 | it was a virtuoso performance of unmatched technique,

00:45:01.580 | preparation, and confidence.

00:45:03.220 | No one else can claim credit for this achievement.

00:45:05.940 | This was his and his alone.

00:45:07.780 | No one else today brings together technical depth,

00:45:10.260 | tactical insight, and confidence to use them

00:45:13.300 | on stage as he does.

00:45:15.020 | I had many students, but I only one Gordon Ryan.

00:45:18.140 | And I think Gordon responded,

00:45:19.820 | "All this is true besides the credit that sits with you."

00:45:23.020 | Thank you, and a heart emoji, very nice.

00:45:26.500 | So anyway, that's as a way of introduction to Gordon Ryan.

00:45:29.900 | Can you take me through his set of performances

00:45:32.260 | and maybe any matches that stand out?

00:45:35.300 | So he competed in his division,

00:45:40.180 | which is the plus 99 kilos,

00:45:43.220 | and in the Superfight against Andre Gauvard.

00:45:45.500 | - That's correct.

00:45:46.460 | This was in fact the first time in history

00:45:48.540 | that this was allowed.

00:45:51.100 | For your listeners who don't follow grappling,

00:45:55.140 | we may have been very rude

00:45:56.420 | and just throwing a lot of stuff at you

00:45:57.900 | without explaining ourselves.

00:45:59.060 | First of all, ADCC is like the Olympics of grappling.

00:46:02.300 | It occurs every two years.

00:46:03.740 | You can either qualify for the event

00:46:07.740 | through winning matches in a qualification process,

00:46:11.260 | or you can be invited.

00:46:12.740 | The only people who get invited are either former winners

00:46:15.340 | or people in the sport who are just

00:46:18.300 | widely recognized superstars

00:46:20.020 | who bring some kind of brand value,

00:46:21.620 | who have proven in the past

00:46:23.860 | that they have what it takes to compete at that level.

00:46:27.100 | In this format, there are two kinds of matches.

00:46:31.700 | There are weight division matches

00:46:37.540 | in which you compete against people

00:46:39.340 | roughly your own size and weight.

00:46:43.100 | There is an open weight where anyone of any size can enter.

00:46:50.180 | So you can have very small people

00:46:51.540 | fighting very large people.

00:46:53.940 | And there is a second category called a super fight

00:46:57.620 | where established champions

00:46:59.620 | who have won previous open weight tournaments

00:47:02.620 | fight each other in one-off battles,

00:47:07.820 | one athlete against another.

00:47:09.500 | So in most of the matches,

00:47:11.580 | you will fight repetitively over time

00:47:14.260 | towards a gold medal.

00:47:15.980 | But in one category, you fight one fight,

00:47:18.420 | the so-called super fight,

00:47:19.580 | which is usually the headline fight of the event.

00:47:23.260 | Traditionally, if you were in the super fight,

00:47:26.300 | you could not compete in the weight categories.

00:47:30.140 | It was seen as too risky

00:47:31.940 | because you might get injured during the weight category,

00:47:35.740 | or you might have to fight four very tough fights in a row

00:47:39.260 | and get exhausted so that you're ineffective

00:47:41.300 | during the main event of the show, the super fight.

00:47:45.500 | So throughout its history,

00:47:46.940 | ADCC has always resisted the idea

00:47:49.100 | of an athlete being allowed to do both weight category

00:47:52.140 | and a super fight.

00:47:54.300 | It's never happened before.

00:47:56.220 | Gordon Ryan requested to be able to do this

00:47:58.860 | because of his extraordinary stature in the sport,

00:48:03.340 | the ADCC organization granted his request.

00:48:06.420 | That was the first time ever.

00:48:08.900 | In addition, Gordon Ryan would be fighting

00:48:11.540 | to be the first person to win three gold medals

00:48:15.140 | in three different weight categories.

00:48:16.540 | This has never been done before.

00:48:19.540 | So it was a huge event on Gordon's part.

00:48:22.620 | And bear in mind also that prior to this event,

00:48:25.180 | he had fought just a month and a half earlier

00:48:28.820 | against a former ADCC open weight champion, Felipe Pena,

00:48:32.980 | who had defeated him in the past

00:48:34.180 | in a completely different rule set.

00:48:35.540 | And then previous to that,

00:48:36.780 | against the current world champion.

00:48:38.420 | So there'd been a buildup to this.

00:48:40.660 | So he'd been very active coming up to the event.

00:48:45.420 | And then he went in to fight arguably

00:48:47.660 | the greatest ADCC champion of all time, Andre Galvan,

00:48:51.380 | which would occur late on Sunday

00:48:53.540 | and would have to fight the toughest people,

00:48:57.740 | including the possibility of fighting his nemesis,

00:49:01.780 | Felipe Pena in the weight division

00:49:04.420 | prior to getting to the super fight.

00:49:06.500 | So there was genuine concern here

00:49:08.060 | that he may have completely overstepped himself.

00:49:10.940 | The biggest concern I had as a coach,

00:49:14.540 | and I'm sure the organizers, Mojaz,

00:49:16.700 | must've had the same concern,

00:49:18.060 | is that he would get injured or exhausted

00:49:20.780 | fighting in his weight division.

00:49:22.380 | There were two athletes in particular, Felipe Pena,

00:49:27.660 | who had given Gordon a very tough 40 minute match

00:49:30.780 | in a no rules setting shortly before ADCC.

00:49:35.780 | And his former training partner, Nick Rodriguez,

00:49:39.380 | who were expected to give Gordon very, very tough matches

00:49:43.740 | if they came up against each other.

00:49:46.060 | So there was a genuine concern

00:49:48.940 | that Gordon may burn himself out

00:49:50.780 | before he even got to fight the guy

00:49:52.540 | who most people believe

00:49:53.380 | is the greatest ADCC champion of all time.

00:49:55.560 | So our concern was how do we manage this?

00:49:59.940 | So what we looked for is extremely efficient methods

00:50:04.700 | of reducing the time of the matches,

00:50:07.340 | making the matches as short as possible.

00:50:09.340 | Our favorite way to fight bigger, stronger athletes,

00:50:14.420 | and I think Gordon was the lightest athlete

00:50:17.900 | in his weight division.

00:50:20.140 | Everyone goes, "Oh, Gordon's so big and strong."

00:50:21.900 | He's actually quite light.

00:50:23.220 | I think he was outweighed by almost all of his opponents.

00:50:28.660 | - It's nice to see Gordon looking small

00:50:31.260 | relative to his opponents, which is absurd to say,

00:50:33.460 | but it is the open division, plus 99 kilos.

00:50:36.660 | - It was plus 99 kilos.

00:50:37.980 | - Right, that's what I mean, sorry, by open, plus 99 kilos.

00:50:41.060 | - Everyone looks like the Incredible Hulk, yeah, yeah.

00:50:44.220 | - So our big thing is when we fight bigger,

00:50:46.740 | stronger opponents, we always go in two directions.

00:50:49.100 | You either go for the legs or you go for the back.

00:50:51.580 | And so we constructed strategies

00:50:55.220 | based around those two methods.

00:50:56.740 | - So going for submissions.

00:50:57.740 | And we should also mention that ADCC rule set

00:51:00.940 | is for regular matches, I think it's five minutes

00:51:04.860 | and five minutes, total is 10 minutes,

00:51:06.500 | and then for finals matches, it's 20 minutes.

00:51:08.940 | And half the time is spent with no points.

00:51:12.500 | - So these can be very, very long matches.

00:51:14.260 | I mean, to put this into perspective,

00:51:15.820 | a modern judo match is five minutes.

00:51:18.180 | A modern wrestling match, I believe,

00:51:19.780 | is six minutes in international freestyle.

00:51:22.660 | So these matches can be 40 minutes long.

00:51:25.620 | Now that's a long, long grappling match.

00:51:28.500 | - And depending on how you compete in it,

00:51:31.300 | that can have a huge toll on you.

00:51:32.660 | - Absolutely, you can get to the finals

00:51:34.820 | and just be absolutely spent.

00:51:37.140 | So our whole thing is, okay, Gordon's gotta

00:51:38.780 | not only get to the finals, then he's gotta fight

00:51:40.420 | the toughest ADCC grappler of all time,

00:51:42.420 | after that.

00:51:43.460 | So we were looking for quick and energy efficient matches.

00:51:48.300 | And that meant going to the back or going to the legs.

00:51:51.900 | And in the overwhelming majority of cases,

00:51:53.980 | that's exactly what he did.

00:51:54.900 | He was able to get some very, very quick matches,

00:51:58.260 | courtesy of leg lock finishes.

00:52:00.220 | And in the few cases where he didn't finish on legs,

00:52:03.980 | then he would simply take his opponents back.

00:52:06.260 | And that's a very low stress position to occupy.

00:52:11.700 | In one case, his opponent deliberately kept his back

00:52:14.460 | on the ground to prevent the back take,

00:52:15.980 | and he just chose mounted position instead.

00:52:18.980 | And so he was able to go through his weight division

00:52:21.300 | with extremely low energy expenditure,

00:52:24.020 | which set him up well to go into the finals.

00:52:27.700 | No injuries, very little energy expenditure.

00:52:30.500 | Now it sounds easy to say that,

00:52:32.660 | okay, the strategy worked.

00:52:34.860 | But in order to get that strategy to work,

00:52:36.620 | you have to have one hell of a set of skills.

00:52:40.180 | And we can see those now.

00:52:44.500 | Would you like to?

00:52:45.340 | - Yeah, I would love to go through them.

00:52:47.460 | And I should also mention,

00:52:49.420 | for people just listening to this,

00:52:51.060 | I'll try to commentate on different things we'll look at.

00:52:53.180 | But the thing that was made clear is,

00:52:57.340 | maybe you can speak to that.

00:53:00.940 | Maybe to you it looks like efficiency,

00:53:04.180 | but to me it looked like Gordon was not even trying.

00:53:08.540 | There was a relaxed aspect to the whole thing.

00:53:13.340 | So maybe it had to do with saving energy,

00:53:15.100 | but he made it look very easy.

00:53:17.340 | And he made the path to submission look very easy.

00:53:20.980 | So here the first match against an opponent

00:53:24.260 | that again looks bigger than him.

00:53:25.940 | - Okay, I'll just give an initial comment here.

00:53:29.860 | First, you'll see that Gordon elected

00:53:31.580 | to sit to the bottom position.

00:53:33.660 | The hardest work in submission grappling

00:53:37.140 | is when two athletes take the standing position

00:53:39.900 | and joust for takedowns.

00:53:41.860 | That's where most of the energy gets burned up.

00:53:44.300 | So working on the idea of energy efficiency,

00:53:46.580 | let's go out and we chose to sit into guard position

00:53:50.100 | and then start looking to access our opponent's back.

00:53:52.780 | Because of our opponent's head position,

00:53:54.380 | a far side arm drag makes a lot of sense.

00:53:56.220 | Gordon's able to beat the arm

00:53:57.300 | and quickly get behind his opponent.

00:53:59.180 | Now the question is gonna be

00:54:00.300 | getting into a scoring position.

00:54:01.780 | It's too early to score at this point,

00:54:03.740 | but we're just concerned at this stage

00:54:05.740 | of just energy expenditure

00:54:06.980 | and make the other guy work harder than us.

00:54:08.460 | - So Gordon did arm drag to the back

00:54:10.940 | and now is working on the hooks.

00:54:12.740 | - The hooks are not particularly important here.

00:54:15.700 | He'll use it just to get stability on his opponent.

00:54:17.980 | But interestingly, his opponent here

00:54:20.460 | had an interesting strategy too,

00:54:21.900 | which was to occupy bottom turtle position

00:54:25.460 | and look to get to the critical five point,

00:54:31.100 | sorry, five minute demarcation point

00:54:33.380 | where points begin to get scored.

00:54:35.620 | His idea, I believe, I'm speculating here

00:54:37.580 | based on his actions,

00:54:38.940 | was to keep Gordon at bay in a defensive turtle position

00:54:42.500 | until a five minute mark occurred.

00:54:44.500 | In which case he would shake Gordon off,

00:54:46.980 | walk away and force a takedown battle.

00:54:49.900 | - How many people are comfortable in that?

00:54:52.220 | And what do you think about the defensive turtle position

00:54:54.740 | versus always trying to come back to guard?

00:54:57.140 | - Turtle position is the second bottom position of Jiu Jitsu.

00:54:59.460 | Many people only associate guard position

00:55:02.060 | with bottom position in Jiu Jitsu.

00:55:03.380 | That's naive.

00:55:04.860 | There's two, there's guard position and turtle position.

00:55:08.540 | Now, as a general rule,

00:55:10.380 | guard position offers a much, much greater variety

00:55:14.460 | of attacking options than turtle position does.

00:55:18.020 | But that's not to say turtle position

00:55:22.060 | absolutely can be an effective bottom position.

00:55:25.980 | You can work effectively from there.

00:55:27.900 | - So there's some case to be made that

00:55:29.980 | to wait out five minutes, turtle might be-

00:55:32.300 | - I mean, I personally think against Gordon Ryan,

00:55:36.020 | I mean, I admire the fellow's courage.

00:55:37.940 | It's not easy.

00:55:41.060 | But there was a logic to what he was doing.

00:55:43.580 | People think, oh, he just got his back taken so easily,

00:55:45.700 | but he did have a strategy.

00:55:48.180 | Now, did he pick the right person

00:55:49.900 | to use that strategy against?

00:55:51.060 | Probably not.

00:55:51.940 | - So Gordon's able to break the turtle down,

00:55:56.580 | get one hook in.

00:55:59.980 | At which point is this becoming

00:56:03.380 | an extremely controlling position with Gordon in the back?

00:56:07.140 | At which point is there, are you happy with where it is?

00:56:10.940 | - At this point, it just started to dawn on me at this point

00:56:13.740 | that this guy actually had a strategy,

00:56:15.380 | which was to maintain a prone position that he's in now

00:56:18.980 | and then shake Gordon off after the five minute mark.

00:56:22.420 | So once that became obvious,

00:56:25.820 | then I was now starting to look at the clock

00:56:28.780 | and how close we are.

00:56:29.660 | If we can take it up to five minutes.

00:56:31.500 | Right now, this guy's only intention

00:56:37.020 | is to stop Gordon from strangling him and finish.

00:56:39.500 | Okay, now the guy's trying to go up in vertical,

00:56:50.300 | freeze it there.

00:56:51.140 | Now, do you see how he's taking his elbows off the mat

00:56:53.780 | in turtle position?

00:56:55.180 | In jiu-jitsu, there's only one reason

00:56:56.460 | you take your elbows off the mat from turtle position,

00:56:58.260 | that's to stand up.

00:56:59.220 | So now it's clear at this point what his actual strategy is.

00:57:02.500 | It's to get up, force a standing confrontation,

00:57:05.180 | win a takedown battle and beat Gordon by points.

00:57:07.500 | So he did have a strategy.

00:57:09.220 | Now, our counter strategy is always based

00:57:11.260 | around the power half Nelson.

00:57:12.900 | This is a common move in the sport of wrestling

00:57:14.940 | and it's a great way to break people down

00:57:16.740 | as they try to stand up.

00:57:18.380 | - That looks so heavy.

00:57:19.460 | - Yeah, I mean, Gordon is a master of it.

00:57:22.020 | - So there's a power half Nelson that Gordon has on him

00:57:24.740 | as the elbows are off the ground

00:57:27.900 | and knees are off the ground.

00:57:28.940 | - He's going to return his opponent to the mat.

00:57:31.180 | And as you can see, he's successful in doing so.

00:57:33.580 | And now it's clear what the man's strategy is.

00:57:36.060 | So I'm calling to Gordon to break him down to a hip.

00:57:38.140 | You put a man on a hip, he can't stand up.

00:57:40.660 | Gordon successfully does it, traps the shoulder

00:57:42.940 | using that one-on-one grip with his right hand,

00:57:44.860 | puts him down to a shoulder and a hip.

00:57:46.420 | That means standing up is no longer an option

00:57:48.460 | for his opponent.

00:57:49.660 | Now Gordon goes in, he's already scoring

00:57:52.060 | because of the turtle position that he's in.

00:57:54.380 | His opponent stays down on his shoulder.

00:57:56.700 | Now Gordon's responsibility is to start looking

00:57:58.820 | for the stranglehold.

00:58:00.140 | His opponent has basic defensive structures,

00:58:02.580 | discipline with his chin, keeps the chin down.

00:58:04.860 | Gordon is a master of tying up defensive arms

00:58:07.220 | and penetrating under the chin to get to a strangle.

00:58:09.700 | And you'll see that shortly.

00:58:11.100 | There's the trapping of the arm.

00:58:14.260 | Notice that no advanced grips were required.

00:58:19.860 | It was just a spontaneous trap.

00:58:21.260 | There's the penetration of the neck.

00:58:23.860 | - So the arm was trapped with the leg.

00:58:25.500 | - Yeah, so now he's only got one defensive arm

00:58:28.300 | and he's just taking that away with his left hand

00:58:30.340 | and he gets a one-handed strangle for the finish.

00:58:32.740 | - And it looks like not much energy was expanded

00:58:38.860 | during that process. - Very little, yeah.

00:58:40.220 | So that's, the tournament got off to a very smooth start.

00:58:43.900 | Very little energy expenditure, no injuries,

00:58:46.340 | and a submission win.

00:58:48.580 | - Does that, there's a kind of certain look to Gordon

00:58:53.220 | of, that could be interpreted as nervousness.

00:58:56.180 | That was an incorrect interpretation?

00:58:58.180 | - Yes. - Okay.

00:58:59.580 | - So there's a,

00:59:00.820 | - What do you interpret as nervous behavior?

00:59:05.700 | - Well, this is, part of me is trolling,

00:59:08.420 | but sometimes on the surface,

00:59:12.740 | confident behavior can look like, almost like anger.

00:59:17.740 | And there's,

00:59:20.600 | Gordon's face had like a vulnerability to it.

00:59:27.580 | - Almost like a,

00:59:29.020 | - When you go to judge confidence, don't look at the face.

00:59:32.180 | Look at the extremities of the body.

00:59:34.900 | - Yeah.

00:59:35.780 | - That's where the truth comes out.

00:59:37.460 | You see it in body language.

00:59:38.780 | And the further from the face and chest,

00:59:40.500 | the more honest the body becomes.

00:59:42.900 | Look at the feet and the hands.

00:59:44.480 | - Well, there were, I mean,

00:59:46.900 | - That's when you see if people are nervous or not.

00:59:49.020 | - He was very relaxed in the extremities, that's true.

00:59:53.660 | - See, you look more confident in this than anything.

00:59:57.660 | What are you thinking about?

00:59:59.060 | What's going through your head here?

01:00:02.580 | Is this the same stuff?

01:00:04.620 | Are you intimidated by the two meat heads,

01:00:07.420 | one in a suit and tie?

01:00:08.960 | Or are you not thinking about that at all?

01:00:10.540 | - I know.

01:00:11.620 | For me, it's just about, okay,

01:00:13.060 | what's the most efficient path to victory

01:00:15.820 | against this particular opponent?

01:00:18.080 | It's just, okay, I've done my job.

01:00:20.300 | I've taken them through an extensive fight camp

01:00:23.740 | to prepare them for every conceivable situation

01:00:26.500 | that they're in.

01:00:28.020 | I've run an efficient warmup.

01:00:29.620 | Their body temperature is perfect.

01:00:31.060 | The elasticity in the muscles is perfect.

01:00:33.260 | My main role when I corner is I avoid

01:00:40.340 | what most people do when they corner,

01:00:41.980 | which is to be a cheerleader.

01:00:43.200 | Most cornermen, they're not cornermen, they're cheerleaders.

01:00:45.680 | They're there to express some kind of emotional support

01:00:48.940 | to their training partners or their student.

01:00:51.980 | Sometimes they're even worse than cheerleaders.

01:00:54.140 | They express their own emotional fears

01:00:56.860 | as the match goes on.

01:00:59.960 | I always believe that 99.5% of the job of the trainer

01:01:07.260 | is done, the coach is done,

01:01:09.860 | when the athlete steps their foot on the mat.

01:01:12.500 | At that point, you shouldn't need me at all.

01:01:16.940 | Everything I needed to tell you should have been

01:01:18.900 | not just told to you, but imprinted into you.

01:01:22.140 | Remember, there's 15,000 people in that crowd.

01:01:25.900 | For half of the match, you're not gonna hear a word

01:01:27.860 | that I can say.

01:01:28.700 | There's too much noise.

01:01:30.020 | But you'll hear my voice inside your head

01:01:32.260 | because you've heard it so many times

01:01:36.100 | over the last 14 weeks.

01:01:38.300 | You're sick of hearing it at that point.

01:01:40.300 | And they're programmed, know what to do.

01:01:45.100 | So I'm usually pretty confident.

01:01:48.660 | I'm also very confident that even in worst case scenarios,

01:01:52.300 | they can have effective solutions

01:01:54.220 | because they train those worst case scenarios

01:01:56.300 | every single day in the gym.

01:01:58.340 | - And so in part, you're there to have a front row seat

01:02:02.940 | to analyze what happened

01:02:05.100 | so that you can take that to the next match.

01:02:07.140 | - The biggest danger an athlete faces is tunnel vision.

01:02:10.300 | Sometimes they will hit upon a certain move or strategy

01:02:14.860 | and just say, "I'm gonna go with this,"

01:02:16.500 | when there's much easier alternatives.

01:02:19.620 | But because they're so focused on the alternative

01:02:21.900 | they've chosen, they get this tunnel vision

01:02:23.980 | and just focus only on that.

01:02:25.660 | The most constructive thing the corner man can do

01:02:28.380 | is alert them to the presence of time,

01:02:30.500 | which is very important in an ADCC match

01:02:32.220 | 'cause all the scoring is structured by time,

01:02:34.900 | and to alleviate problems associated with tunnel vision.

01:02:39.020 | That, okay, you're doing this,

01:02:41.460 | but if you just did this, it'd be so much easier.

01:02:43.700 | So that's the main goal.

01:02:45.820 | - So here, this was one of several anticipated matches

01:02:50.460 | against, second one against Victor Hugo,

01:02:53.460 | which is a very tough opponent.

01:02:56.180 | And--

01:02:58.380 | - Again, this was a situation where Gordon

01:03:00.620 | was considerably outweighed by his opponent,

01:03:03.060 | so the main thing here was efficiency.

01:03:05.220 | His opponent elected to avoid the standing position

01:03:08.580 | by jumping into guard, so now--

01:03:10.060 | - Close guard, yeah.

01:03:10.900 | - Gordon would be in top position this time.

01:03:13.220 | - He has a very good close guard.

01:03:15.020 | - But unfortunately, Gordon has very good guard passing.

01:03:18.180 | So he's an excellent guard player, very talented,

01:03:21.860 | but Gordon is renowned as the eminent guard passer

01:03:26.460 | in the world today.

01:03:27.420 | So it's a tall order to hold Gordon off

01:03:30.500 | for a 10-minute match.

01:03:32.260 | - Is there something you can say about this guard passing?

01:03:34.300 | Gordon is making it look very easy.

01:03:35.860 | It's middle distance guard passing here.

01:03:40.700 | He eventually passes to mount, I believe,

01:03:43.420 | in a very, again--

01:03:46.980 | - Why don't you run through the sequence

01:03:48.220 | where he gets mounted?

01:03:49.060 | There's a couple, I believe he gets mounted twice.

01:03:51.660 | There's some, back just a little bit further.

01:03:53.940 | - Yeah.

01:03:55.140 | So he's trying one arm under--

01:03:58.620 | - Yeah, this is a stacking position.

01:04:00.380 | Now, normally, we always insist on the idea

01:04:02.660 | of getting advantageous angle first,

01:04:04.420 | controlling the feet and getting angle.

01:04:06.980 | But there's a height advantage that Victor Hugo has here,

01:04:10.100 | and the length of his legs means that he can play

01:04:14.780 | very, very wide with his legs.

01:04:16.260 | So getting an advantageous angle might be difficult.

01:04:18.580 | In these circumstances, it often makes sense

01:04:20.540 | to go right up the middle.

01:04:21.860 | Now, Gordon could just go back for legs

01:04:26.260 | because the legs, Victor Hugo's legs

01:04:28.860 | are so far apart at this point

01:04:30.180 | that you could easily isolate a leg and attack that.

01:04:33.020 | But Gordon wanted to show off his passing prowess.

01:04:37.420 | Very often, he'll go into a match and just say,

01:04:39.260 | "Okay, I'm gonna show this skill."

01:04:41.140 | And he'll often use it as a demonstration

01:04:43.860 | of techniques he teaches in instructional videos.

01:04:48.180 | So he wanted to show that he could pass to mount readily

01:04:51.300 | on a world champion.

01:04:52.140 | - Like this part here, this little step.

01:04:55.260 | - Okay, just freeze it right there.

01:04:56.780 | Go back one step.

01:04:58.260 | Okay, you can clearly see that all of his opponent's

01:05:02.020 | defensive frames are built on his opponent's left-hand side.

01:05:06.020 | So everything is defense on the left,

01:05:09.060 | but you can see this comes at a price

01:05:10.660 | and that price is back exposure on the right-hand side.

01:05:13.460 | You can literally see his opponent's back on that side.

01:05:16.340 | So Gordon's whole game is to place sufficient pressure

01:05:20.780 | that the opponent overcompensates on the side of pressure

01:05:24.460 | just to set up a quick switch across to the other side.

01:05:27.460 | There's the vulnerability, there's the back exposure.

01:05:30.420 | His opponent has to put his back on the ground,

01:05:32.140 | switch his back.

01:05:33.140 | That's a world champion right there on bottom

01:05:35.140 | who does a good job of recovering from the first danger,

01:05:38.540 | but unfortunately Gordon has been here a thousand times

01:05:41.380 | and just switches his hips and kicks out.

01:05:43.100 | - Little step.

01:05:44.100 | - And so you see there's two changes in direction,

01:05:46.940 | left, right, in a very short period of time

01:05:48.700 | that people find very, very hard to keep up with.

01:05:51.780 | Now his opponent builds up to an elbow.

01:05:54.260 | He's looking to create more and more space from here,

01:05:56.860 | but Gordon counters by just stepping over the hips.

01:05:59.300 | It's just when you feel like every move,

01:06:02.980 | he's doing the right things.

01:06:04.540 | The man on bottom is doing well.

01:06:05.900 | He's doing the right things,

01:06:07.340 | but the other guy's just been here too many times

01:06:10.140 | and is just a half second ahead of every decision being made.

01:06:14.780 | - Going up on the elbow.

01:06:16.340 | Gordon makes it look so easy here.

01:06:21.380 | It almost seems like Victor's out,

01:06:25.980 | but this turning of the hips

01:06:29.300 | with the arm over the opponent's back,

01:06:32.220 | he's able to bring him back down and Gordon takes mount.

01:06:36.580 | (silence)

01:06:38.740 | - Notice how Gordon is never satisfied

01:06:41.420 | with the mounted position itself.

01:06:43.140 | He's only satisfied with an extended mounted position

01:06:45.580 | where the elbow comes up over the shoulder line.

01:06:48.340 | - Yeah, only then does he show,

01:06:50.100 | there's a little bit of relief right there, right?

01:06:53.540 | Right?

01:06:54.580 | There's a little bit of relief.

01:06:55.660 | - No, that's the look of a man who's just proved a point.

01:06:58.860 | - I, this is very Michael Jordan,

01:07:02.780 | like sticks his tongue out.

01:07:04.020 | So yeah, I mean, there's no points at this stage.

01:07:06.540 | He really is going for submission.

01:07:08.260 | And then this happens again.

01:07:14.140 | Is this the match that wasn't Gordon's?

01:07:26.780 | - This was the only match where Gordon didn't finish

01:07:29.260 | his opponent by submission.

01:07:33.060 | - Was this very frustrating for him?

01:07:35.260 | Was there a--

01:07:36.100 | - It's actually interesting that when he came off the mat,

01:07:38.860 | he was visibly frustrated.

01:07:42.220 | He wanted to get a finish.

01:07:44.980 | And I think he was more upset about not finishing

01:07:49.700 | Victor Hugo than he was delighted

01:07:52.100 | by winning his two gold medals.

01:07:53.820 | So I think that says a lot about the perfectionism

01:07:59.500 | of Gordon Ryan.

01:08:00.380 | Most people would be thrilled to beat one of the great

01:08:04.340 | grapplers of this generation decisively in this fashion,

01:08:08.620 | but he was not happy.

01:08:11.780 | - And so this is Gordon's third match against Sousa,

01:08:16.140 | Roosevelt Sousa, another guy who's very big.

01:08:18.660 | - Yeah, this is different because now we're onto

01:08:20.700 | the second day.

01:08:22.300 | Your listeners should be aware that the event occurs

01:08:25.140 | over a two day period.

01:08:26.580 | So the previous two matches occurred on Saturday.

01:08:28.660 | Now we're into Sunday.

01:08:30.060 | Now this puts a different context on things.

01:08:31.780 | If we could just freeze it right there,

01:08:33.460 | maybe go back one step.

01:08:34.780 | Now we're on Sunday morning.

01:08:38.060 | And the idea is that Gordon will be fighting

01:08:40.660 | the biggest fight of his life late that afternoon.

01:08:43.820 | So now we're into the idea of energy conservation.

01:08:46.900 | It's okay to have two hard matches on Saturday

01:08:50.340 | 'cause you get to rest on Saturday night.

01:08:52.380 | But now Gordon has to beat two people back to back

01:08:56.500 | and save energy for the biggest fight of his life

01:08:59.100 | on Sunday, late Sunday afternoon.

01:09:02.260 | So now the emphasis is on a quick win

01:09:04.860 | and you can see Gordon Ryan certainly delivers on this.

01:09:09.540 | Now, when you go to entangle your opponent's legs,

01:09:12.580 | the basic choice you have is between straight Ashigarami

01:09:15.500 | and cross Ashigarami.

01:09:17.060 | In the last five years, cross Ashigarami has proven

01:09:21.900 | to be statistically the more important of the two.

01:09:26.100 | And as a result, many people have forgotten the value

01:09:30.420 | of straight Ashigarami leg based leg locks

01:09:33.820 | and undervalued them.

01:09:37.260 | Gordon has outstanding heel hooks

01:09:39.340 | from both straight and cross positions.

01:09:42.140 | And his opponent was probably more concerned

01:09:45.620 | about the danger of a cross Ashigarami

01:09:48.180 | left the right leg undefended for far too long.

01:09:53.020 | And as a result, Gordon goes into a very classical Ashigarami

01:09:58.020 | you would normally expect to see from five or six years ago

01:10:01.660 | and gets a very, very quick finish.

01:10:03.940 | - So lifts his opponent.

01:10:06.020 | - There's the Ashigarami, the entanglement

01:10:08.900 | of one of his opponent's legs with two of his.

01:10:11.380 | Now he's got to turn and expose his opponent's heel.

01:10:13.940 | So there's an initial off balance to the left

01:10:16.220 | to get a defensive reaction.

01:10:17.700 | The opponent overcompensates, exposes his heel

01:10:20.860 | and then there's the submission.

01:10:23.660 | There's a danger of a leg being broken here.

01:10:26.780 | Gordon has a absolutely ferocious outside heel hook

01:10:30.740 | until you felt it, it's quite different.

01:10:34.260 | - So the opponent probably before he even felt the heel hook

01:10:38.340 | felt the control and that it's screwed.

01:10:40.300 | - Yeah, it's--

01:10:41.140 | - That he's screwed there.

01:10:42.580 | He doesn't even want to--

01:10:44.660 | - When someone who knows what they're doing

01:10:47.460 | gets a bite on your leg like that,

01:10:49.700 | you feel it deep inside your knee

01:10:52.100 | and ankle tendons immediately.

01:10:54.180 | And it's--

01:10:59.060 | - There's a sense in which you almost tap,

01:11:02.020 | he got a couple of taps, almost like as if they're early.

01:11:06.300 | Because the opponent knows--

01:11:07.140 | - Yeah, people came up to us,

01:11:07.980 | obviously this guy tapped early, it's like--

01:11:10.140 | - No, he knew.

01:11:10.980 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:11:12.420 | - He knew that late would be a big problem.

01:11:15.980 | Got it.

01:11:16.900 | So this is within like 30 seconds, within 10 seconds.

01:11:20.780 | - I think it was within 10 seconds.

01:11:22.020 | So this was an excellent example of someone saying,

01:11:24.940 | "Okay, I'm gonna conserve energy with a short match.

01:11:27.780 | "I'm not just gonna go down into a neutral position,

01:11:30.380 | "I'm gonna directly pull into a leg lock attack

01:11:33.260 | "from standing position."

01:11:34.820 | You don't see that much in heavyweight divisions,

01:11:36.420 | that's something you see more in the lightweight divisions.

01:11:39.540 | - So we gotta go to the final match of Gordon's

01:11:43.140 | within his division, which I think,

01:11:46.900 | as opposed to facing Felipe Pena, who lost to Nicky Rod.

01:11:51.900 | - Nicky Rod had a great match against Felipe Pena

01:11:55.140 | and passed Felipe Pena's guard.

01:11:59.300 | I think only the second person in ADCC competition

01:12:02.540 | to accomplish that.

01:12:03.380 | - I believe with a body lock.

01:12:05.380 | - It started as a body lock,

01:12:06.500 | but he converted to half guard, top head and arm,

01:12:09.420 | and passed out of half guard, top, chest to chest.

01:12:12.300 | - I think I listened to Craig Jones sort of interview

01:12:15.780 | summarizing what happened in ADCC,

01:12:17.780 | and he briefly mentioned that Nicky Rod

01:12:21.100 | might have the best body lock pass that he's ever felt.

01:12:25.260 | So like--

01:12:26.100 | - He's very, very good with the body lock.

01:12:27.540 | - The way to face Nicky Rod is don't let him

01:12:31.220 | get the body lock.

01:12:32.340 | - But there's a problem, if you stand up,

01:12:34.300 | he's a good wrestler, so there's a dilemma there.

01:12:37.380 | Like you have to sit down to guard,

01:12:38.980 | but that goes into his body lock.

01:12:40.660 | But then if you stand up,

01:12:42.060 | now you go into his wrestling skill.

01:12:43.580 | So it's a great dilemma that he has.

01:12:45.340 | - And that's what,

01:12:46.900 | in facing Nicky Rod, going Ryan here, chooses to,

01:12:55.500 | (laughs)

01:13:00.620 | yeah, if you look at the limbs, there's a relaxation there.

01:13:04.420 | - We should also explain some things here.

01:13:06.700 | This is a finals match.

01:13:07.940 | So instead of being 10 minutes long,

01:13:10.020 | it's 20 minutes long with the option

01:13:12.020 | of a 20 minute overtime.

01:13:13.940 | So this could potentially be a 40 minute match.

01:13:16.580 | So you can see why the ADCC people were very concerned

01:13:19.700 | about Gordon doing this match,

01:13:21.500 | because what if this match had gone 40 minutes

01:13:23.780 | and then an exhausted Gordon Ryan has to go out

01:13:25.740 | to fight Andre Galvan, who's fresh and ready to maul him.

01:13:29.980 | - And on top of that is two former teammates--

01:13:32.900 | - Who know each other's game very well.

01:13:34.500 | So there was a high likelihood in most people's minds

01:13:36.580 | that this would go the distance.

01:13:38.420 | 'Cause when you train with each other for years,

01:13:40.580 | every single day in the gym, seven days a week,

01:13:43.260 | you get to know each other's tricks.

01:13:45.060 | One big problem here for Nicky Rod is that

01:13:48.820 | his body lock guard passing game,

01:13:52.340 | which is his main weapon on the ground

01:13:54.500 | was taught to him by us.

01:13:57.420 | So it's not like we're gonna be taken by surprise by it.

01:14:01.220 | So that must've been figuring in his mind.

01:14:04.180 | - Do you think psychologically for Gordon

01:14:06.180 | and psychologically for Nicky Rod, it's tough?

01:14:09.260 | So for him with that body lock, for example,

01:14:11.620 | do you think it's tough for him to know what to do here?

01:14:15.540 | - It's tough because he would have remembered

01:14:18.500 | the outcome of the training sessions.

01:14:20.660 | It's hard to go up against a guy

01:14:23.340 | who used to dominate you in training

01:14:26.740 | and then say, "Okay, I'm gonna beat him in competition."

01:14:29.300 | - Can you shut all of that off?

01:14:30.860 | Because-- - It's tough, man.

01:14:32.460 | Memory is memory.

01:14:33.660 | You can't lie to yourself.

01:14:35.460 | - What do you think about competition?

01:14:36.900 | Sort of there's been a lot of, Olympics bring this out.

01:14:40.140 | There's been a lot of big upsets at the Olympics.

01:14:42.660 | There's something where people find something in them.

01:14:46.260 | I mean, judo is a different sport than grappling.

01:14:50.620 | - In judo, there's much more room for upset

01:14:54.260 | because a mistake in judo

01:14:57.140 | will have ramifications that will be felt

01:15:01.780 | within half a second.

01:15:03.620 | Like if you take the wrong grip in judo,

01:15:05.780 | you can be thrown in half a second and there's no recovery.

01:15:08.660 | If your two shoulders hit the mat with momentum,

01:15:10.740 | it's over, it's done.

01:15:11.780 | In jiu-jitsu, you could, especially in ADCC

01:15:16.900 | where there's no points in the first five minutes,

01:15:18.540 | you could get taken down and mounted by your opponent

01:15:21.300 | and still win.

01:15:22.500 | Like you can recover from a bad start.

01:15:24.740 | In judo, boxing, kickboxing, MMA, you get hit,

01:15:29.460 | there's no recovery time.

01:15:30.540 | You just get swarmed on.

01:15:31.820 | And jiu-jitsu is a much more forgiving sport

01:15:34.700 | where you can make a series of blunders

01:15:37.300 | and you just recover from them.

01:15:38.860 | You don't make a series of blunders in boxing,

01:15:40.460 | you're unconscious.

01:15:41.300 | - So there's the blunder case,

01:15:42.900 | but there's also been just people where it's their day.

01:15:46.900 | I mean, again, maybe it's romanticizing the notion,

01:15:50.140 | but there's been some epic performances

01:15:53.100 | in Olympic wrestling, in Olympic judo.

01:15:56.620 | As an example, Satoshi Ishii, he had a 2008 performance.

01:16:00.260 | We talked about all Japan and all that kind of stuff,

01:16:02.180 | but the Olympics, he destroyed everybody out there.

01:16:07.180 | Everybody on this path to the Olympic gold medal.

01:16:10.340 | And that's when Teddy Rene was also competing,

01:16:12.660 | he got the bronze.

01:16:14.100 | So, I mean, that,

01:16:15.980 | and you could say he was at that time

01:16:18.820 | the best in the world also, but he,

01:16:21.220 | I mean, some people have a say.

01:16:22.940 | - Yeah, but I think it would be very fair to say

01:16:25.860 | he was the best in the world.

01:16:27.420 | Think about the people he beat

01:16:28.460 | to win three all Japan championships.

01:16:30.940 | Like he beat Kosei Inoue, he beat Keiji Suzuki,

01:16:34.940 | they were Olympic champions.

01:16:36.540 | Like he was already--

01:16:38.500 | - So you don't believe on free will?

01:16:39.940 | That this is all written--

01:16:41.700 | - I don't believe that a person can walk on stage

01:16:45.180 | and be better than what they are supposed to be.

01:16:47.940 | You have a skill level, it's set in stone.

01:16:50.380 | This is your skill level.

01:16:51.620 | You don't just go on stage

01:16:52.900 | and suddenly your skill level gets here.

01:16:54.540 | What you do have is a situation

01:16:57.100 | where you have a skill level, okay?

01:16:59.980 | Another opponent has a higher skill level,

01:17:02.340 | but he runs into confidence issues.

01:17:04.760 | So that he only uses a small percentage of his actual skills

01:17:08.500 | and then he will fall below someone

01:17:10.900 | who is technically lower on the skill scale than he is.

01:17:14.940 | That can happen,

01:17:16.580 | but you can't just magically acquire skills--

01:17:19.740 | - Yeah, but all of us are able to fall in confidence.

01:17:23.500 | - Yes, so the question becomes who manages that fall best?

01:17:26.980 | And that can create upsets, absolutely.

01:17:29.500 | - So you don't think Gordon could have fallen in confidence

01:17:32.140 | against a former teammate

01:17:33.620 | when the pressure is so high?

01:17:34.940 | - There was just no basis for a fall to occur.

01:17:37.940 | - You said he doesn't have confidence issues.

01:17:40.520 | What do you attribute that to?

01:17:42.980 | - That's because he never loses in the gym.

01:17:45.620 | There's no experience in his head

01:17:48.580 | that would make him say, "I shouldn't be this confident."

01:17:51.460 | - So it's the physical,

01:17:52.860 | it's like we talked about mental preparation--

01:17:56.420 | - Hey, don't get me wrong.

01:17:57.260 | If Gordon lost 20 matches in a row,

01:17:59.100 | of course his confidence would drop

01:18:00.900 | because experience is now,

01:18:03.320 | there's gonna be a psychological dissonance

01:18:06.560 | between his experience, his recent experience,

01:18:10.600 | and what he believes.

01:18:12.240 | Okay, if you believe you're the best in the world,

01:18:13.600 | you just lost 20 matches,

01:18:14.840 | at some point reality's gonna break in.

01:18:17.040 | But if you're just never losing in competition,

01:18:21.400 | dominating people in the gym,

01:18:23.240 | then there's nothing in your experience

01:18:26.580 | that would shake your confidence.

01:18:28.240 | - Can I ask you this just in a small tangent?

01:18:30.560 | Why is Gordon Ryan so good?

01:18:33.240 | So we're looking at,

01:18:34.960 | you've trained a lot of special athletes,

01:18:36.600 | you're a special human being yourself.

01:18:39.000 | I could just look at human history.

01:18:42.220 | There's a lot of, not a lot,

01:18:44.520 | there's some special humans.

01:18:46.680 | It seems like Gordon Ryan is one of them.

01:18:48.840 | - I totally agree with that.

01:18:50.120 | - Can you try to dissect--

01:18:51.680 | - That's what I meant when I said

01:18:53.840 | I had many students but only one Gordon Ryan.

01:18:56.120 | I've taught many, many people,

01:18:58.440 | but they don't all have his skill level.

01:19:00.120 | So there's an obvious elephant in the room here.

01:19:02.760 | What distinguishes him from other athletes?

01:19:05.400 | Great question, I'll try and give an answer.

01:19:08.600 | More than anyone else that I've ever taught,

01:19:14.720 | he has a memory for things that were taught to him.

01:19:19.160 | He has an ability to recall information

01:19:22.360 | that is extraordinary compared with other people

01:19:24.960 | in the room.

01:19:25.800 | So that's definitely a big part of it.

01:19:28.580 | (inhales)

01:19:30.740 | Secondly, he has a pride in technique and technical prowess

01:19:35.740 | that will not allow him to settle

01:19:41.820 | for anything less than perfection.

01:19:44.180 | And he will hate himself when there is imperfection.

01:19:47.660 | So there is a love of excellence

01:19:50.140 | and a hatred of anything less than excellence.

01:19:52.900 | (inhales)

01:19:57.640 | He has an ability to pull the trigger

01:20:02.640 | when opportunity arises, which is truly extraordinary.

01:20:10.760 | Many people know what to do,

01:20:13.080 | but when the moment comes, they back off

01:20:16.160 | and they'll doubt themselves.

01:20:19.400 | If Gordon sees the opportunity,

01:20:21.400 | the trigger pulls every time.

01:20:22.960 | - So can I just link on that briefly?

01:20:26.360 | There's a few times where he gets

01:20:28.520 | a little bit of an advantage

01:20:29.840 | and he just chases it to get a big,

01:20:31.840 | like with Andre Galvao, you get,

01:20:36.140 | it's like there's a dance and you get one step ahead

01:20:39.360 | and he's able to chase that,

01:20:41.960 | get a little glimmer of the back

01:20:43.560 | and he's able to chase that all the way to back control.

01:20:46.360 | So is that kind of the trigger that you're referring to?

01:20:49.280 | - Yes, it runs deeper than that too.

01:20:51.440 | It's the idea that good athletes are greedy athletes.

01:20:55.960 | When they see a small opportunity,

01:20:57.600 | they try and get as big a bite of it as possible.

01:21:01.560 | So that a mantra that we always have in training,

01:21:03.600 | if you can see the back, you can take the back.

01:21:06.040 | And if Gordon sees an inch of your back,

01:21:09.880 | you know that's the direction he's gonna be going.

01:21:12.380 | If your far shoulder is within an inch of the floor,

01:21:15.040 | he's gonna be mounting you.

01:21:16.880 | If your shoulder comes off the floor,

01:21:18.160 | he'd be on your back on the other side.

01:21:20.120 | He's a maximalist with opportunity.

01:21:24.120 | He's not satisfied with,

01:21:26.000 | oh, let me get a good enough outcome.

01:21:28.280 | It's like, I want the maximal outcome.

01:21:30.800 | So when you combine all these things together,

01:21:32.640 | an ability to recall information,

01:21:34.600 | which is just far superior to anyone else I've ever coached,

01:21:39.440 | an ability to work in the training room

01:21:44.840 | towards not just good technique, but excellent technique,

01:21:48.760 | the confidence to pull the trigger

01:21:53.160 | whenever the opportunity arises,

01:21:55.840 | a maximalist mindset where it's never enough

01:22:00.840 | to have a good enough outcome.

01:22:02.320 | It's always gotta be the best possible outcome.

01:22:04.720 | And the fifth element,

01:22:11.720 | which I believe is very, very important,

01:22:13.720 | is extraordinary depth in his technical prowess.

01:22:23.120 | In particular, with regards his defensive acumen.

01:22:27.400 | Everyone looks at Gordon and focuses

01:22:29.680 | on his offensive prowess

01:22:31.240 | 'cause they see him dominate other athletes.

01:22:33.760 | But what they don't see is what I see every day in the gym,

01:22:39.520 | where he works from impossibly bad defensive position.

01:22:43.360 | Someone locked in on a full heel hook on his body,

01:22:47.440 | on a full judogitame armbar,

01:22:51.480 | in a complete pin mounted with Gordon's two arms

01:22:54.600 | stretched out over his head

01:22:55.680 | in what looks like a hopeless position.

01:22:58.280 | And Gordon will work in these positions.

01:23:00.960 | And of course, because it's such a bad position,

01:23:02.680 | sometimes he'll have to tap.

01:23:04.080 | But he just works so relentlessly in these bad positions

01:23:10.040 | that when he steps on stage, he's like,

01:23:12.960 | if this guy got the worst possible position on me,

01:23:17.680 | there's nothing he could do with it.

01:23:19.400 | And within 30 seconds, I could turn it around on him

01:23:22.160 | and win this match.

01:23:23.400 | That gives his game an overall breadth and depth,

01:23:30.760 | which is very, very hard to deal with.

01:23:34.440 | It means there's no obvious weak point

01:23:36.680 | where you can just say, okay, I'm gonna attack him here

01:23:39.480 | and use this strategy to beat him.

01:23:45.160 | And that goes back to his confidence.

01:23:49.720 | The reason why most people lack confidence

01:23:53.800 | is 'cause they fear bad outcomes.

01:23:56.080 | If you're a strong guard player,

01:24:00.080 | you've got an excellent guard,

01:24:02.480 | but you're terrified of leg locks

01:24:04.080 | and your opponent has strong leg locks,

01:24:05.720 | you will shut down your own guard

01:24:07.600 | and won't play as freely and well as you normally do

01:24:12.040 | 'cause you're afraid of the leg lock danger.

01:24:13.440 | You'll pull your feet in,

01:24:14.280 | you'll play a very conservative guard game.

01:24:17.040 | But if you had extremely adept leg lock defense,

01:24:23.760 | then you just play with all the confidence

01:24:27.600 | you normally do from guard position.

01:24:29.840 | Gordon puts himself in that situation.

01:24:33.080 | He's so defensively sound

01:24:35.960 | that it translates into his offensive confidence.

01:24:40.040 | - When you talk about memory recall, which is interesting,

01:24:43.520 | I can't help but see parallels

01:24:44.760 | between him and Magnus Carlsen, who's a chess player,

01:24:47.840 | who's the number one in the world,

01:24:49.600 | arguably the best ever, certainly the best ever

01:24:53.720 | if you just look at absolute numbers.

01:24:55.880 | The chess has the luxury of having a rating,

01:24:58.500 | which you cannot have in jiu-jitsu

01:25:01.960 | because it's a game of human chess.

01:25:03.680 | Chess is just a board game,

01:25:05.160 | so you can actually calculate the probability

01:25:07.520 | that you could win.

01:25:08.360 | So he has the highest ELO rating ever,

01:25:11.200 | and he's maintained that rating.

01:25:12.760 | He can, without competing against

01:25:16.080 | the number two in the world,

01:25:17.120 | he can just prove that he's the number one

01:25:19.040 | in the world for many years.

01:25:20.960 | Anyway, there's certain similarities.

01:25:23.440 | One is ability to recall.

01:25:26.460 | So memory recall of information is fascinatingly good.

01:25:31.280 | And the other one is not so much a love for perfection,

01:25:34.520 | which is something you mentioned,

01:25:35.840 | but the flip side of that,

01:25:37.200 | which is what you also mentioned,

01:25:38.560 | is the hate of imperfection.

01:25:41.760 | Now, in the case of Magnus,

01:25:43.600 | it almost creates a level of anxiety for him

01:25:49.840 | that's almost destructive.

01:25:52.780 | So the thing he seems to hate the most

01:25:56.760 | is imperfection against people he knows are worse than him.

01:26:01.480 | So the thing he loves is competing against people

01:26:04.200 | that are close to his skill level,

01:26:06.700 | or the favorite is people who are,

01:26:10.000 | might actually be better than him,

01:26:11.840 | especially in certain positions.

01:26:13.520 | He loves competing against them.

01:26:16.160 | He hates competing against people that are,

01:26:18.820 | still, from the perspective of everyone else,

01:26:23.400 | what are called super grandmasters,

01:26:25.080 | so top three in the world,

01:26:26.920 | but he knows he's much better than them.

01:26:28.880 | And the anxiety of being not perfect against those people,

01:26:33.380 | that's why he, I don't know if you're paying attention,

01:26:36.340 | but he stepped away.

01:26:37.340 | He's not gonna defend his world championship.

01:26:40.440 | Because he hates the anxiety

01:26:42.160 | of playing people worse than him.

01:26:43.960 | - Interesting.

01:26:45.240 | He figures they would somehow make him look bad, or?

01:26:48.680 | - No, he just, for him, at least the language he uses,

01:26:52.840 | it's just not fun.

01:26:54.160 | And he likes having fun.

01:26:57.440 | To him, it was fun to win, no matter the skill level,

01:27:00.880 | the world championship the first time.

01:27:03.400 | But then defending it is a very grueling process.

01:27:08.160 | It's, with classical chess, you play these many hour,

01:27:12.920 | it could be seven hour long games.

01:27:15.360 | And on top of that, he really hates the fact that it's only,

01:27:20.360 | I forget what it is, but it's single digit number of games.

01:27:24.000 | He says it's low sample.

01:27:26.840 | So I can't, I would like to play 20, 30, 40, 50 games

01:27:31.840 | if we're gonna do it this way.

01:27:36.160 | But then they're too long.

01:27:37.880 | It's gonna take too long.

01:27:39.480 | So he really emphasizes the fun of it

01:27:43.600 | and the clear demonstration of who's the best.

01:27:46.240 | Now, chess is an interesting game.

01:27:49.800 | It's probably different than grappling

01:27:51.240 | because it's been played for centuries.

01:27:53.960 | So there's this giant body of people that are playing it.

01:27:57.400 | Like, there's other Gordon Ryans out there.

01:28:00.320 | Imagine a world where there's multiple Gordon Ryans

01:28:02.960 | or something like that, different dimensions.

01:28:04.800 | But you have sharks everywhere.

01:28:09.720 | And so there, there is fun to be had

01:28:11.840 | even at the very, very, very, very top.

01:28:14.880 | But the memory recall is the thing that stands out

01:28:18.080 | and the hate of imperfection.

01:28:20.760 | More intense than anybody else in the game.

01:28:23.800 | - Fascinating.

01:28:24.720 | - That takes us back to the final.

01:28:28.000 | - Ah, yes.

01:28:29.200 | - So here, Gordon is facing Nicky Rod,

01:28:34.040 | former training partner.

01:28:35.800 | And again, the intention here is,

01:28:38.560 | this has to be put in the context

01:28:40.240 | that Gordon will be fighting

01:28:41.720 | the greatest ACC grappler of all time

01:28:44.240 | in a few hours after this.

01:28:46.080 | So what we're looking for is a quick resolution.

01:28:51.080 | Still the shortest possible match.

01:28:54.920 | Now, there's a complicating factor here.

01:28:57.760 | Nicky Rod was a wrestler before he was a jiu-jitsu player.

01:29:03.520 | On paper, the way his route to win is via wrestling.

01:29:08.520 | He's not gonna be able to submit Gordon Ryan

01:29:14.320 | and he's not gonna be able to pass his guard.

01:29:16.360 | So he has to win by wrestling.

01:29:17.880 | In the ADCC finals, you cannot sit to guard.

01:29:23.600 | So the approach that Gordon used earlier

01:29:26.240 | that we saw on video cannot be used in the finals.

01:29:28.840 | Gordon must wrestle his opponent.

01:29:31.880 | So on the way out,

01:29:34.680 | Gordon and I were talking

01:29:39.880 | and we'd had discussions obviously during the cam,

01:29:41.920 | what's the appropriate thing to do here?

01:29:44.520 | And there had been some

01:29:47.160 | matches earlier in the event

01:29:52.200 | where it was becoming obvious that stalling

01:29:55.280 | was being heavily punished by referees.

01:30:00.120 | So I said to Gordon on the way out,

01:30:04.600 | just give him your leg, let him take you down.

01:30:08.120 | Because in the first 10 minutes of the finals,

01:30:10.400 | takedowns don't score anything.

01:30:11.960 | There are no means of scoring the first 10 minutes,

01:30:15.400 | but you can't sit to guard.

01:30:16.480 | That will award you a negative point.

01:30:18.840 | So I said, just let Nicky Rod take you down.

01:30:21.240 | And he's like, Nicky Rod's not gonna take the bait.

01:30:23.600 | And I said, if he doesn't, I'll call him for stalling.

01:30:26.920 | And so--

01:30:28.240 | - And then Craig Jones also commented after the fact,

01:30:31.800 | is I don't know why Nicky Rod took the bait.

01:30:34.000 | - So if we see the start of the match,

01:30:38.040 | you see Gordon comes out and offers a leg.

01:30:40.080 | Now it's not that, you know, Nicky Rod is smart.

01:30:43.160 | He knows what's happening here.

01:30:44.400 | And what's he gonna do?

01:30:46.400 | Stall for 10 minutes

01:30:47.400 | and get like five stalling calls put against him?

01:30:50.760 | So Gordon gives him the takedown.

01:30:52.240 | That way they go to the ground immediately with no effort.

01:30:55.720 | And the match now favors Gordon

01:30:58.480 | 'cause Gordon is significantly more skilled on the ground.

01:31:03.480 | The question is,

01:31:06.520 | how can we make this match as short as possible?

01:31:08.760 | And as is so often the case, the answer comes back to legs.

01:31:12.120 | - So for people just listening to this,

01:31:16.200 | Gordon's in an open guard

01:31:18.040 | and Nicky Rod appears to be trying to keep his hips away

01:31:20.920 | from Gordon's legs.

01:31:21.800 | - Yes, the big, now Nicky Rod knows there's a danger here.

01:31:24.920 | So he's elected to go to his knees

01:31:27.200 | that will set up his favorite body lock passes.

01:31:30.560 | And it will in some ways mitigate

01:31:33.840 | some of the dangers associated with leg locks.

01:31:36.480 | So Gordon's whole thing is,

01:31:37.520 | how am I gonna get my body weight underneath him?

01:31:39.640 | He has a choice between linear entries

01:31:41.760 | where he enters between his opponent's knees

01:31:43.640 | and circular entries where he inverts

01:31:45.720 | and spins underneath his opponent

01:31:47.160 | to get under a center of gravity.

01:31:48.880 | - Is there a way for somebody to try to get a body lock

01:31:52.520 | without giving Gordon an opportunity to get under them?

01:31:56.120 | - Well, the body lock is an excellent way

01:31:57.480 | to shut down leg lock entries,

01:31:59.400 | if you can get to the body lock.

01:32:01.200 | But you can see Gordon's very, very disciplined

01:32:03.320 | with his elbow and knee position.

01:32:04.640 | Elbows and knees work in a position

01:32:07.560 | where it's very, very hard for his opponent

01:32:08.920 | to access his waist.

01:32:10.240 | That shoulder's always either across the hip

01:32:15.040 | or in front of the shoulder.

01:32:16.400 | Sorry, his knee is either in front of the shoulder

01:32:18.320 | or in front of the hip.

01:32:19.440 | - And we're one minute into the match.

01:32:21.240 | And just if I were to look at the video player here,

01:32:25.320 | it appears that the match is over soon.

01:32:27.360 | So I guess Nikki Rod is facing this.

01:32:32.360 | I need to get close in order to do the body lock.

01:32:35.920 | And the closer you get, the more danger there is

01:32:38.320 | to let Gordon get under you and get the leg control.

01:32:45.760 | (silence)

01:32:47.920 | Now they're starting to get close here.

01:33:04.360 | Gordon's gonna try and get his head underneath his opponent,

01:33:06.440 | make a circular entry into the legs.

01:33:08.440 | He's clearing his opponent's head out of the way

01:33:11.840 | by faking the arm drag on the far side.

01:33:13.760 | The first move that he used against his first opponent

01:33:16.840 | earlier in the tournament.

01:33:18.040 | And there's the leg.

01:33:19.040 | Spins underneath it.

01:33:20.160 | Goes circular, rotates through,

01:33:23.600 | gets his body weight underneath his opponent.

01:33:25.720 | - Okay.

01:33:26.560 | - And now he's gonna trip him down to the mat.

01:33:27.880 | - Now, I believe Nikki Rod tries to pull out his foot here.

01:33:32.880 | And Craig also said that Nikki Rod has gotten used

01:33:37.960 | to being able to pull that foot out from anybody.

01:33:40.520 | And that he was very surprised at the grip

01:33:43.200 | that Gordon was able to actually hold on.

01:33:48.280 | So I just wanna comment.

01:33:49.320 | I'm just parroting commentary.

01:33:52.720 | - If you look at what's happening here.

01:33:54.640 | - From the internet.

01:33:55.680 | - If you just freeze it, you'll see that Gordon,

01:33:59.880 | like any good leg locker, will always treat

01:34:02.640 | his opponent's foot like a knot at the end of the rope.

01:34:06.480 | Just as you slide down a rope,

01:34:08.600 | if there's a knot at the end, your hand will catch.

01:34:11.080 | So too with the human leg.

01:34:13.440 | When they go to extract by pulling,

01:34:15.600 | you just keep your fist as close to your shoulder as possible

01:34:19.480 | and narrow the gap.

01:34:20.560 | The foot will always catch.

01:34:22.200 | The failure that many people have

01:34:23.400 | is they let their hand drift away from their own shoulder.

01:34:25.560 | And so there's room for the foot to extract.

01:34:27.640 | But you'll see Gordon's extremely disciplined

01:34:29.440 | with thumb close to his own shoulder,

01:34:31.640 | which creates a situation that's very, very hard

01:34:34.080 | just to simply pull your foot out.

01:34:35.840 | - You're focusing on the knot of the foot.

01:34:38.440 | - Yeah, also it's very early in the match.

01:34:40.280 | There's very little sweat.

01:34:41.760 | Both athletes are still pretty dry.

01:34:43.520 | Now Gordon has to climb the leg.

01:34:49.240 | And now he's already captured his opponent's shoelace.

01:34:51.360 | There's the heel exposure coming up.

01:34:52.800 | Nicky Rod already knows things are getting bad.

01:34:55.320 | And there's the win.

01:34:57.320 | - Actually, the comment I made, I guess,

01:34:58.640 | was from a little bit earlier.

01:34:59.760 | There was an earlier time

01:35:01.240 | where Nicky Rod was trying to pull out the foot

01:35:03.560 | and Gordon was able to hold onto the knot,

01:35:07.640 | which is interesting.

01:35:08.880 | - Now that was a brilliant day's work by Gordon Ryan.

01:35:14.600 | He's had two matches against opponents

01:35:17.240 | considerably bigger and stronger than himself.

01:35:19.940 | And the time of the two matches can be measured

01:35:23.520 | in I think less than two minutes.

01:35:26.480 | So he's done what he set out to do.

01:35:29.000 | No injuries, no exhaustion.

01:35:31.320 | He's beaten four guys back to back,

01:35:33.520 | all of whom are excellent athletes

01:35:35.960 | with minimal energy expenditure.

01:35:37.880 | And he's ready to go on to his super fight.

01:35:40.440 | - So, and that's against one of the greatest,

01:35:44.200 | arguably for a long time,

01:35:46.560 | really, really up there,

01:35:49.840 | jujitsu practitioners, competitors,

01:35:51.960 | grappling no-gi competitors of all time,

01:35:54.160 | which is Andre Gavar.

01:35:55.000 | - Yes, Andre Gavar is almost certainly at this point

01:35:58.480 | the greatest ADCC competitor of all time.

01:36:01.440 | He won more super fights than anyone else by a landslide.

01:36:04.920 | - So if I may just read a few words

01:36:07.960 | you've written on Instagram about this match,

01:36:10.240 | about Andre Gavar on greatness.

01:36:12.720 | "How great you become in any given endeavor

01:36:15.600 | will always be assessed by the degree of difficulty

01:36:18.160 | of the barriers you had to overcome to get to the top.

01:36:21.440 | Just as the lion became king of the jungle,

01:36:23.780 | not by living among sheep,

01:36:26.100 | but by dominating a world of elephants, hyenas,

01:36:29.160 | buffalo, leopards, crocodiles.

01:36:32.040 | So too, the greatness of an athlete will be determined,

01:36:35.120 | not just by his own ability,

01:36:36.720 | but by the greatness of the athletes he faces.

01:36:39.440 | Thus, in his quest for greatness,

01:36:41.760 | Gordon Ryan owes a debt to the greatness

01:36:44.460 | of his toughest opponent, Andre Gavar."

01:36:47.480 | And you go on to sing him praises.

01:36:49.540 | So, and that introduces this match.

01:36:52.160 | You know, there was an interesting moment.

01:36:54.960 | I didn't even listen to the words exchanged,

01:37:00.600 | but because I had the great fortune

01:37:02.200 | of sitting next to Hodger Gracie,

01:37:04.500 | there was this fascinating moment before the match.

01:37:08.960 | And I can't believe Gordon is sufficiently relaxed

01:37:11.920 | to do this, but he walked up to Hodger Gracie

01:37:16.680 | and had a discussion.

01:37:18.000 | What do you think?

01:37:19.000 | You've faced Hodger Gavar before.

01:37:20.640 | What are your suggestions?

01:37:22.000 | And they've talked to back and forth.

01:37:23.520 | They brainstormed ideas, like minutes before the match.

01:37:27.160 | And it was just a beautiful moment of like, I don't know,

01:37:30.440 | like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan talking to each other,

01:37:34.000 | something like that.

01:37:35.000 | I mean, I wonder how much brainstorming there really was

01:37:39.400 | and how much was it just kind of like spiritual inspiration

01:37:44.400 | or something like that.

01:37:46.600 | - Yeah, I think it's more spiritual inspiration.

01:37:49.400 | He looks up to Hodger as a very close friend

01:37:54.240 | and mentor of mine.

01:37:55.080 | So, I always tell my athletes,

01:37:57.200 | "Look to Hodger as your example."

01:37:58.640 | This is a guy who always fought for the finish.

01:38:02.280 | He tried to express the highest ideal of Jiu-Jitsu,

01:38:05.200 | which is control leading to submission

01:38:06.960 | in every match he was ever in.

01:38:08.200 | He even lost matches on tactics against people

01:38:11.960 | that he could easily have defeated

01:38:13.380 | if he adopted a different tactic.

01:38:15.780 | But he always insisted on victory by submission.

01:38:19.160 | It defined his career, it made him who he was.

01:38:21.920 | And I always try to have my athletes emulate him.

01:38:24.880 | - So, what was the strategy going into this match?

01:38:27.400 | What were you thinking?

01:38:28.240 | - Okay, for Andre Galvant,

01:38:30.640 | there's a sense in which Andre Galvant had to fight

01:38:36.080 | literally the perfect match to win this.

01:38:39.160 | Okay, this is a match that's gonna be 20 minutes long

01:38:42.280 | and potentially 40 minutes long.

01:38:45.600 | Andre Galvant cannot win by submission.

01:38:50.680 | Gordon's submission dominance here is just too great.

01:38:56.120 | It would be exceedingly difficult

01:38:58.800 | for him to win on the ground.

01:39:01.080 | Gordon's ground positional game is just too advanced.

01:39:05.760 | And so, for Andre Galvant, he had to win.

01:39:08.860 | If he was going to win,

01:39:09.880 | it was going to be in a standing wrestling exchange

01:39:13.760 | where most people assessed him

01:39:15.360 | as having a measure of superiority over Gordon Ryan.

01:39:19.260 | The problem is that it's hard to get a win

01:39:26.000 | to just keep a potentially 40 minute match on the ground,

01:39:31.000 | sorry, off the ground that whole time.

01:39:32.780 | It's very, very difficult indeed.

01:39:34.800 | So, he would have had to fight

01:39:36.000 | literally the perfect tactical match to make it happen.

01:39:38.960 | And he would have to do it

01:39:40.080 | without getting called for stalling points.

01:39:42.240 | Gordon has the luxury that if at any point

01:39:46.400 | they go to the ground, he has complete dominance.

01:39:49.360 | But Gordon too has a problem

01:39:51.140 | that he can't pull guard without being penalized.

01:39:54.340 | And if Andre Galvant can play this tactical game

01:39:58.640 | of forcing Gordon to pull guard

01:40:01.440 | and then staying at a distance where he doesn't,

01:40:04.680 | he's doing enough action not to get called for stalling,

01:40:07.720 | but not so much to engage

01:40:09.460 | with the dangerous Gordon Ryan on the ground,

01:40:11.900 | then it's feasible he could have won.

01:40:14.460 | But it would have been, as I said,

01:40:17.640 | it would have required the most perfect application

01:40:21.120 | and integration of technique and tactics

01:40:23.800 | that he's capable of.

01:40:25.920 | - How much intimidation was there?

01:40:27.620 | Or are these assets already beyond that?

01:40:31.680 | - When you say intimidation, be more precise.

01:40:34.380 | - Do you think there was some degree,

01:40:36.440 | if you were just to empathize with Andre Galvant,

01:40:40.120 | do you think there's some degree

01:40:41.240 | in which Gordon was in his head?

01:40:42.880 | Because of the trash talk leading up to certain events,

01:40:47.320 | because of the level of dominance

01:40:49.240 | that Gordon has shown in this competition

01:40:51.840 | and in the months and years leading up to it.

01:40:56.400 | Also the fact that Andre Galvant is also a coach

01:40:59.360 | of a large team, so there's some pressure

01:41:03.880 | to demonstrate to the team that the old lion still got it.

01:41:08.360 | - Yeah, I can't speak for Andre,

01:41:10.800 | but I know for Gordon, it's hard to be intimidated

01:41:15.800 | when you know the other guy has no method of finishing you.

01:41:21.680 | It just takes so much pressure off.

01:41:24.240 | When you just go in there saying,

01:41:25.400 | there's literally no way this guy can finish me.

01:41:27.760 | And there's no way this guy can pin and control me.

01:41:32.080 | I can't be finished, I can't be pinned and controlled.

01:41:35.800 | The only way I can lose this

01:41:39.600 | is if this guy plays a tactical game.

01:41:42.240 | So in his best case scenario,

01:41:44.220 | I lose by a tactical game.

01:41:48.960 | But from Andre's perspective, it's like,

01:41:50.520 | if I make one screw up, this kid could finish me.

01:41:53.300 | You can see which way the intimidation game goes.

01:41:58.000 | Now, for the start, things get interesting here.

01:42:00.820 | We've already said, if you could just freeze it right there,

01:42:04.160 | Andre's only realistic path to victory

01:42:07.280 | is standing grappling, okay?

01:42:09.160 | That would require him to take Gordon down

01:42:12.560 | presumably multiple times after the first 10 minutes

01:42:16.160 | and not be taken down at all by Gordon.

01:42:18.900 | So it's a tall order, it's possible, but difficult.

01:42:22.320 | And here's where things get interesting.

01:42:24.840 | I told Gordon before the match,

01:42:27.240 | just go out and offer him the leg.

01:42:29.020 | Same way you do with Nicky Rod.

01:42:30.560 | And that's where things get interesting.

01:42:34.360 | I must say that I loved what Andre Galvan

01:42:37.600 | did at the start of this match.

01:42:38.600 | He's a little crazy here.

01:42:39.900 | There was just so much energy in the room at this point

01:42:42.980 | that his hand finding got--

01:42:44.080 | - For people just listening,

01:42:44.920 | there's a bit of hard slapping.

01:42:47.400 | - Yeah, that's fine.

01:42:48.240 | - That should be considered a strike.

01:42:50.120 | - It's fine.

01:42:50.960 | There was just a lot of electric atmosphere in the room.

01:42:54.280 | So now things settle down a little bit.

01:42:56.240 | But here's where things get interesting.

01:42:58.860 | Andre throws the whole tactical game out the window

01:43:03.440 | right from the start.

01:43:05.320 | He goes for the takedown.

01:43:06.420 | Gordon doesn't try to fight the takedown

01:43:08.080 | 'cause it's in his interests to go to the ground.

01:43:10.720 | But I love this about Andre.

01:43:12.400 | He's literally like, "Fuck you, kid.

01:43:14.500 | "Let's see how good your ground game is."

01:43:18.040 | So he shoots the takedown.

01:43:19.680 | And Gordon accepts it, obviously,

01:43:22.760 | because it's to his advantage to accept it.

01:43:25.280 | But I love the fact that Andre was like,

01:43:26.760 | "I'm not even gonna try and stall this out.

01:43:30.240 | "I'm just gonna bang, there it is."

01:43:32.520 | So he's like, "Okay, let's see what you got, kid.

01:43:34.760 | "They say you're good on the ground.

01:43:35.720 | "Let's see what you fucking got."

01:43:37.720 | And I love that about Andre.

01:43:40.120 | Unfortunately, he's entered the hornet's nest now.

01:43:43.560 | - What happened there real quick?

01:43:45.280 | 'Cause that was very--

01:43:46.400 | - Gordon immediately went into ashigurami.

01:43:48.760 | Not just any ashigurami,

01:43:49.840 | but ashigurami where he's holding both legs.

01:43:52.120 | - He's in open guard and he's scooted forward.

01:43:54.880 | Oh, wow, that's really nice.

01:43:57.080 | - So he splits the legs. - Against Andre Galvao's.

01:43:58.200 | - Now he dominates the space between the knees.

01:43:59.920 | So there's a guaranteed straight ashigurami here.

01:44:02.360 | - He split the knees against Andre Galvao,

01:44:06.300 | like effortlessly right there.

01:44:08.760 | Wow.

01:44:09.960 | - So already, Gordon's in his preferred domain now.

01:44:13.380 | So he's starting to off-balance his opponent.

01:44:15.080 | He's looking for a reaction to get heel exposure.

01:44:17.560 | He does get heel exposure.

01:44:19.200 | Andre does a good job of monitoring the feet

01:44:22.400 | to try and reduce the breaking pressure.

01:44:24.340 | But the brute fact is it's in Gordon's realm now.

01:44:28.680 | This is where he has all the advantage.

01:44:31.740 | So, and the match is gonna be 20 minutes in Gordon's realm.

01:44:36.740 | That's gonna be a very, very tall order.

01:44:43.720 | - Was there a moment here, again, Gordon's on the legs.

01:44:48.720 | Are you impressed that Andre's able to get out

01:44:51.960 | from this corner?

01:44:52.800 | - I would expect this.

01:44:53.640 | Andre's been preparing for this for two years.

01:44:56.240 | And remember, Andre has gone against

01:44:58.920 | some of the greatest leg lockers in grappling before

01:45:01.600 | and prevailed.

01:45:02.480 | So he's not naive.

01:45:04.400 | He knows how to defend himself.

01:45:06.560 | The big problem is that he's gonna create

01:45:08.680 | defensive reactions, which lead into other aspects

01:45:12.020 | of Gordon's game, in particular, back exposure.

01:45:14.660 | - So here, Ashi Garami goes to a single leg type

01:45:18.840 | of position where Gordon runs to Andre's back.

01:45:22.680 | - Now he has to return him to the mat.

01:45:29.000 | The most efficient way to do so is always

01:45:30.640 | courtesy of foot sweeping.

01:45:31.840 | So he pulls out a de-ashi hirai from the back

01:45:34.080 | to sweep him down to the mat.

01:45:35.540 | And now Gordon's on top.

01:45:38.040 | And this is a serious problem for any grappler in the world.

01:45:41.960 | Once Gordon gets top position, he's just relentless.

01:45:45.120 | - But just getting Andre Gavar's good,

01:45:51.200 | just getting the guard back, all of that, it's great.

01:45:54.480 | - There's also a sense here in which Gordon

01:45:55.960 | is pacing it too, just to physically fatigue an opponent.

01:45:59.320 | - So he's passing the guard, but not rushing it.

01:46:04.600 | - Now what Gordon's looking for here

01:46:09.000 | is complete chest-to-chest contact.

01:46:12.600 | He's getting very close to it now.

01:46:14.600 | And once he gets chest-to-chest on an opponent

01:46:17.400 | in top position, past one of his opponent's knees,

01:46:20.120 | it's gonna be awfully, awfully difficult

01:46:21.960 | for an opponent to recover.

01:46:23.320 | - What is he waiting for here?

01:46:29.760 | Is there pressure here?

01:46:32.240 | Over time, he just wears you out.

01:46:33.480 | - Yeah, it's part of a campaign of attrition,

01:46:36.240 | of pressure over time.

01:46:37.720 | Now he's creating a situation where he's either

01:46:39.840 | gonna get back exposure or mount exposure,

01:46:43.600 | and either way is pretty much fatal

01:46:45.320 | when you're dealing with Gordon.

01:46:47.160 | Andre elected to go the route of back exposure.

01:46:50.320 | - Now Gordon got the body triangle, is on his back.

01:46:59.960 | And now it's a--

01:47:02.920 | - Now there's one physical problem here,

01:47:04.760 | that Andre Gavar has a neck like a bull,

01:47:08.440 | and he has a very short and very thick neck.

01:47:11.760 | So penetrating under the chin for a strangle

01:47:14.160 | can be a real problem.

01:47:15.800 | He also has extremely well-developed shoulders

01:47:18.160 | and upper arms, so when the head comes down

01:47:20.160 | and the shoulders go up, there's very little

01:47:22.360 | real estate to work with, with regards to your strangleholds.

01:47:25.560 | So Gordon in time will trap one of his opponent's arms

01:47:29.320 | with his legs in order to take away

01:47:31.040 | one of those strong defensive arms.

01:47:32.520 | There you can see the arm has been trapped,

01:47:34.640 | and now he can start--

01:47:35.480 | - Heating the body triangle.

01:47:36.320 | - Heating towards the strangle.

01:47:38.000 | - And now here is still difficult.

01:47:39.960 | - It's still difficult, but things are looking good.

01:47:42.880 | There's still considerable amount of time left on the clock.

01:47:45.200 | Gordon is well ahead on points,

01:47:46.880 | so all the pressure, all the tactical pressure

01:47:48.800 | now is on Andre.

01:47:49.640 | You'll see the critical penetration of the jaw.

01:48:03.680 | - With the wrist, yeah, wow, yeah.

01:48:06.480 | - Now Gordon elects for a one-handed strangle.

01:48:08.840 | - Wow.

01:48:15.560 | - Andre fought very bravely,

01:48:17.000 | but a strangle, it doesn't matter how brave you are.

01:48:22.920 | - And where does the strangle actually happen

01:48:26.280 | in terms of, it felt like the strangle was at the blade

01:48:31.280 | of the, it wasn't even fully sunk in.

01:48:35.320 | So where does, is that like a full,

01:48:36.720 | almost like a one-handed choke?

01:48:39.640 | - There's a sense in which once you get underneath,

01:48:42.320 | you know the inevitable follow-up is coming.

01:48:44.680 | - So it's again, the inevitable,

01:48:45.800 | you're feeling the inevitable.

01:48:47.000 | - It's like a, to go back to your chess analogy,

01:48:49.400 | it's like resigning in chess.

01:48:51.120 | - Yeah, in chess it's considered almost like impolite

01:48:54.440 | to let it run out when you understand,

01:48:57.960 | when you understand that death is on the horizon.

01:49:03.560 | And there's a lot of respect.

01:49:07.320 | That was the beautiful thing,

01:49:08.280 | with all the trash talk and everything like that,

01:49:10.200 | Gordon always shows respect.

01:49:11.480 | I love that about the drama of combat.

01:49:15.600 | It's trash talk in the beginning and respect at the end.

01:49:18.560 | - I think it's, you know, when you feel someone,

01:49:21.320 | Andre has great skills, and when you grapple someone,

01:49:25.400 | you feel just how skilled they are.

01:49:27.200 | And whatever issues you had prior to the match evaporate,

01:49:33.200 | when you feel, okay, they're just like you,

01:49:36.400 | they do the same moves and same kind of concepts,

01:49:39.560 | and you see that there's more that bonds you together

01:49:43.080 | than separates you.

01:49:44.080 | And that's the feeling at the end of most grappling matches.

01:49:47.800 | - So if we could talk about Giancarlo,

01:49:51.840 | who had an incredible performance.

01:49:53.680 | And I mean, there's a lot of things we can say,

01:49:55.480 | we can probably go through his matches,

01:49:56.880 | but if we could just talk without that,

01:49:59.000 | about some of the most impressive things he saw about him.

01:50:02.120 | One of the things I think you mentioned elsewhere in here

01:50:05.840 | is about confidence.

01:50:06.800 | So one of the things you saw that could really benefit him

01:50:10.080 | as an athlete and competitor is to build up his confidence.

01:50:13.320 | Is there, can you speak to that?

01:50:15.200 | - First of all, I should give you some background.

01:50:17.280 | Giancarlo Badoni was a strong local black belt in Boston,

01:50:22.280 | teaching at Benard Faria School.

01:50:27.880 | When I would film instructional videos,

01:50:29.560 | I would often talk to him

01:50:30.840 | and talk to him about his competitions and training.

01:50:34.040 | And he would do local competitions.

01:50:36.200 | He was trying to go from Gi training,

01:50:38.680 | which was the majority of his competitive background

01:50:41.480 | into no Gi.

01:50:42.800 | And he was struggling in local competitions,

01:50:46.280 | especially with things like leg locking,

01:50:47.840 | where he had no background in leg locking

01:50:50.000 | and would often get submitted.

01:50:52.760 | So as we worked together in instructional videos,

01:50:55.120 | we would talk and discuss,

01:50:57.320 | he would periodically come to the gym in New York City

01:51:00.120 | and come into work out with the guys.

01:51:01.680 | And he often struggled in the training room.

01:51:04.400 | He had no experience with things

01:51:05.800 | like body lock guard passing.

01:51:07.120 | And this used to mean that he was,

01:51:10.280 | many of the training sessions didn't go well for him.

01:51:13.720 | So he was always like a very polite,

01:51:18.520 | well-spoken young man and worked hard.

01:51:21.520 | When we went to Puerto Rico

01:51:25.400 | and the team ended up drifting apart,

01:51:28.520 | when we moved into Austin,

01:51:32.240 | he said, "Now that many of your athletes have left,

01:51:38.200 | "could I come down and train with you guys full time?"

01:51:40.440 | And I was like, "Yeah, I'd love to."

01:51:42.320 | I thought it'd be a great training partner

01:51:43.560 | for Gordon and Gary.

01:51:45.040 | We didn't really have any training partners at that point.

01:51:48.200 | And sure enough, he literally just picked up

01:51:52.040 | everything he had and moved down to Austin.

01:51:54.240 | Now, anyone who just moves halfway across the country

01:51:58.040 | to begin training, that already gets my respect right there.

01:52:00.440 | That's a big commitment.

01:52:01.960 | And he began training.

01:52:04.640 | We put him on a training schedule

01:52:08.320 | where first he had to cover up his big weaknesses.

01:52:11.200 | He had limited attacks from bottom position.

01:52:15.840 | He had poor leg lock defense,

01:52:18.400 | and he was very, very vulnerable

01:52:20.200 | to certain kinds of guard passing,

01:52:23.120 | which weren't part of his experience.

01:52:25.840 | - This is all a year out from AGCC.

01:52:27.760 | - Yes.

01:52:28.600 | - And we should also maybe give the spoiler,

01:52:32.800 | which is he wins his division in a dominant fashion.

01:52:37.520 | He also does incredibly well at the absolute.

01:52:40.400 | - It was an amazing thing.

01:52:43.200 | To give you an idea, when he first moved to Austin,

01:52:45.080 | he competed in a WNO event,

01:52:48.520 | and I don't think he scored a single point,

01:52:51.000 | lost a couple of matches,

01:52:55.360 | including matches to people who were in this ADCC.

01:52:59.040 | So he came out of that looking very depressed,

01:53:03.040 | and he lost to Kenan Duarte, he lost to Mason Fowler.

01:53:08.040 | So John Cutler always struck me

01:53:10.640 | as someone who was positionally sound.

01:53:12.640 | He had good guard retention, things like this,

01:53:15.640 | but he had no offense, he had no leg lock defense,

01:53:18.320 | and he just wasn't able to assert authority on matches.

01:53:21.640 | He was a guy who was always gonna be tough to beat

01:53:23.640 | 'cause it's hard to pass his guard, that kind of thing,

01:53:26.120 | but he wasn't dangerous.

01:53:27.520 | - Can I ask you a question on that?

01:53:28.480 | - Yeah.

01:53:29.320 | - 'Cause my interaction with him early on

01:53:31.160 | when he came to Austin,

01:53:33.000 | I remember he interacted with me a bunch on the mat,

01:53:35.760 | showing me stuff, but I wonder if that kindness

01:53:39.360 | is a detriment to the confidence?

01:53:41.000 | Is there some connection?

01:53:43.440 | - Again, confidence--

01:53:44.880 | - Killers can be nice too.

01:53:46.000 | - Absolutely, confidence comes from skill level,

01:53:48.760 | and confidence is a much more rational thing

01:53:53.760 | than most people ascribe it.

01:53:56.120 | People think of confidence as like this esoteric,

01:53:59.040 | ethereal element that you either have or you don't,

01:54:02.080 | when in fact, confidence is much more a reflection,

01:54:05.120 | a rational reflection on your past experience.

01:54:08.120 | And if you're successful with your past experience

01:54:10.200 | and you're expecting to compete in a situation

01:54:15.200 | which is similar to your past experience,

01:54:18.440 | and that past experience has mostly been successful,

01:54:20.880 | you'll be confident.

01:54:22.240 | Are you pretty confident that the sun will rise tomorrow?

01:54:25.240 | Of course you are,

01:54:26.160 | because it's done so every time in the past.

01:54:27.840 | Now, there's no, as people like Hume pointed out,

01:54:31.120 | there's no supreme rational reason for believing this,

01:54:34.720 | but nonetheless, your confidence is high,

01:54:36.680 | and it's the same thing in jiu-jitsu.

01:54:39.240 | If you're performing well and skills are the reason for that,

01:54:44.240 | your confidence will be high in the future,

01:54:46.080 | regardless of what your mindset is.

01:54:48.000 | So it's not a question of this personality

01:54:50.600 | does better in competition or that personality.

01:54:53.360 | Ultimately, it's gonna come down to your skills,

01:54:55.840 | and your confidence will be a reflection

01:54:58.320 | of your accumulation of skills.

01:55:00.960 | - So what was his journey like to a person who lost,

01:55:05.960 | to a person who dominated the competition?

01:55:08.480 | - Yeah, first things first, we had to say,

01:55:10.200 | okay, you've got an obvious weakness, leg lock defense.

01:55:13.680 | So every day in the gym, he would be taught,

01:55:17.720 | okay, this is where you put your feet.

01:55:19.560 | This is where you position your knees.

01:55:21.200 | You point your knee this way, not this way.

01:55:23.360 | Then he would have to start sparring situations in leg locks

01:55:29.160 | and have to work his way out.

01:55:30.880 | Initially, these were like heartbreaking sessions for him.

01:55:36.040 | I mean, I've got to give that kid full credit.

01:55:40.360 | Like he just worked his way through it patiently,

01:55:43.200 | dealt with frustration, initial failures,

01:55:45.920 | and just said, I'm going to get better.

01:55:47.960 | - Can we just linger on that?

01:55:49.040 | So what's the experience of those early training sessions

01:55:51.600 | like from an athlete perspective?

01:55:53.600 | - It's daunting.

01:55:54.440 | - It's daunting.

01:55:55.280 | Are you basically dealing with the rational thought

01:55:58.360 | that you're not going to ever be good?

01:56:01.560 | - Yeah, you're wondering, have I even got what it takes?

01:56:04.520 | Like, you know, think about it.

01:56:06.320 | He's an established player who's been in IBJF competition.

01:56:09.680 | I believe he's a brown belt world champion in the Gi.

01:56:13.280 | And suddenly a group of kids

01:56:16.160 | that he's never even seen before

01:56:17.480 | repeatedly submitting him with leg locks in the gym.

01:56:20.520 | And he's like, man, this is terrible.

01:56:23.560 | Like a year from now, I'm supposed to fight ADCC

01:56:26.520 | against people like Craig Jones,

01:56:28.920 | like some of the best leg lockers in the world.

01:56:31.080 | Like it must've been hard, you know?

01:56:33.820 | But he just stayed in there

01:56:37.360 | and no one worked harder than him.

01:56:39.880 | He just was in the gym three times a day,

01:56:42.720 | studying every day.

01:56:44.200 | And unlike so many other people,

01:56:45.860 | every time he was shown something,

01:56:47.240 | he consciously and deliberately tried to enact it,

01:56:50.600 | even at the price of initial failure.

01:56:53.560 | - Do you advise that that's a good way to go?

01:56:56.080 | - It's the only way to go.

01:56:57.440 | Like if you can't wrap your head around the idea

01:57:01.080 | that trying to acquire new skills

01:57:05.440 | will create a temporary time

01:57:08.080 | where your effectiveness diminishes

01:57:11.120 | as you're trying to bring on new skills,

01:57:12.760 | you're never gonna make it

01:57:14.160 | 'cause you'll always stay at whatever skill set you are.

01:57:17.400 | The whole mental trick is to

01:57:20.600 | imbue this idea of delayed gratification

01:57:25.360 | that you have to accept that when I bring on new moves,

01:57:30.880 | my overall effectiveness will diminish.

01:57:33.140 | But there's the belief that in time,

01:57:37.520 | as my skill performance increases,

01:57:39.640 | it will increase over time,

01:57:41.720 | but it will come at the price

01:57:43.120 | of initial frustration and failure.

01:57:45.860 | And Giancarlo made that mental switch

01:57:50.520 | early on in his time in Austin.

01:57:52.520 | And to his credit, just stuck through.

01:57:55.280 | Within a very short period of time,

01:57:56.620 | he became very hard to leg lock.

01:57:58.400 | And even the best leg lockers in the room

01:58:01.420 | had a hard time with him.

01:58:03.080 | And that was the first step in confidence.

01:58:05.560 | He said, "Okay, I'm not getting finished quickly anymore."

01:58:08.700 | Then he had to bring in a whole new set

01:58:10.720 | of upper body submissions.

01:58:13.000 | He neglected upper body submissions.

01:58:15.500 | - When you say upper body submissions,

01:58:17.160 | do you mean the arm lock?

01:58:18.000 | - Strangleholds, arm locks, things like this.

01:58:19.920 | And in particular, he put very, very hard work

01:58:23.240 | on his strangleholds.

01:58:25.040 | He had always been someone who was positionally strong.

01:58:27.080 | He could get to the back,

01:58:28.080 | but he could never finish from the back.

01:58:29.960 | And then suddenly in the gym,

01:58:31.960 | he started finishing from the back.

01:58:33.520 | And then as gym performance

01:58:35.780 | against the lesser students increased,

01:58:37.960 | then you bump them up against better students.

01:58:40.120 | And then this goes on all the way up

01:58:42.160 | to the best guys in the room.

01:58:43.600 | And in time, in a relatively short period of time,

01:58:48.720 | there was significant increases in performance

01:58:51.660 | and success begets success.

01:58:55.160 | And this kept going.

01:58:56.760 | We started to get a hint of his developing confidence

01:59:02.920 | in local competitions.

01:59:04.120 | I remember putting, seeing John Carlo compete

01:59:07.280 | in a local fight to win competition

01:59:09.000 | against a tough Brazilian kid.

01:59:11.200 | John Carlo just came out,

01:59:12.720 | dominated and finished with a leg lock.

01:59:14.380 | Now that was interesting.

01:59:16.400 | It's like, okay,

01:59:17.240 | you're the guy that used to get finished by leg locks,

01:59:20.680 | and now you're beating tough opponents with leg locks.

01:59:22.880 | And that was an important psychological step

01:59:24.960 | for John Carlo Badoni.

01:59:27.320 | And with each little step as we went further and further,

01:59:32.120 | then he got to ADCC trials

01:59:34.800 | and had one of the great performances.

01:59:37.660 | I believe he submitted all of his opponents in ADCC trials

01:59:41.140 | and put on a fantastic display of grappling.

01:59:45.620 | Shockingly, no one paid attention to it.

01:59:49.460 | They were just like, "Oh yeah, he won."

01:59:51.260 | And John Carlo flew into ADCC completely under the radar.

01:59:55.820 | They just saw him as,

01:59:56.660 | "Oh, he's the guy that won American trials."

01:59:59.460 | And no one really paid much attention.

02:00:04.260 | In his first match,

02:00:05.180 | he took on a great Brazilian champion,

02:00:08.900 | Izaki, and won in dominant fashion.

02:00:12.460 | He was about to strangle him

02:00:13.420 | with just a few seconds left on the clock.

02:00:15.580 | And I remember John Carlo being furious

02:00:17.260 | at the end of the match,

02:00:18.460 | thinking like, "I was so close to finishing."

02:00:22.140 | He wanted a perfect finish.

02:00:23.620 | - Up on points, six to nothing.

02:00:26.180 | - Yeah.

02:00:27.020 | - And still chasing.

02:00:28.420 | - Still chasing.

02:00:29.260 | I mean, he could have just coasted at this point,

02:00:30.980 | but he wanted to finish every one of his opponents.

02:00:33.480 | And he got very, very close, but not quite there.

02:00:36.260 | And then in his next match,

02:00:39.820 | he had to take on the defending gold medalist

02:00:42.260 | from the previous ADCC.

02:00:45.740 | - Yeah, Mateo Diniz.

02:00:46.700 | - This was the guy who was the favorite to win.

02:00:48.860 | So you have a relatively unknown John Carlo

02:00:51.580 | fighting the man who defeated Craig Jones

02:00:54.140 | in the previous ADCC.

02:00:56.080 | - Do you remember what stood out to you about this match?

02:01:01.860 | Mateo Diniz is good wrestling,

02:01:03.180 | he's good at everything.

02:01:04.020 | - Yes.

02:01:04.840 | - He's got all the wrong ground.

02:01:05.680 | - He's got, by judicial standards,

02:01:07.680 | he's a very strong wrestler.

02:01:08.820 | So our intention was to match his wrestling

02:01:11.140 | with John Carlo's judo skills.

02:01:14.620 | So you will see, if we could perhaps go back,

02:01:19.620 | you'll see the first takedown.

02:01:24.380 | - Arm drag.

02:01:31.620 | - And took him down with a simple drag and pick.

02:01:33.660 | So that was John Carlo's first takedown,

02:01:36.360 | that was more wrestling oriented,

02:01:37.860 | and good for his confidence to see

02:01:39.260 | that he could score a nice takedown.

02:01:42.060 | But Mateo Diniz is very, very good at standing up

02:01:46.180 | from bottom position.

02:01:47.100 | If we just go back just a step.

02:01:48.780 | Okay, now here we have something interesting.

02:01:50.580 | Mateo comes up from bottom,

02:01:52.280 | seizes a leg and John Carlo defends the wrestling move

02:01:55.460 | and then goes immediately into-

02:01:56.660 | - With a foot.

02:01:57.500 | - It's kind of a mix of Sasai and Diyashi Hirai.

02:02:01.260 | - Wow, that was beautiful, I didn't even notice that.

02:02:03.660 | That's really nice, look at that.

02:02:05.420 | From defending a single, threatening a guillotine.

02:02:13.140 | - One of the big themes of our ADCC camp

02:02:17.020 | was that most of our opponents now

02:02:18.820 | are getting very strong in hand fighting.

02:02:20.660 | - Look at that.

02:02:21.500 | - But they are not strong in foot fighting.

02:02:23.900 | And so we put a very heavy emphasis on foot sweeping attacks.

02:02:28.140 | You remember Gordon Ryan took down Andre Galvant

02:02:30.660 | with a foot sweep.

02:02:31.580 | And here you have John Carlo using the same technique,

02:02:35.140 | not from the back, but from the front.

02:02:37.180 | - And an overhook.

02:02:38.340 | - Left hand post.

02:02:41.200 | Catches the foot midair.

02:02:44.540 | - Look at.

02:02:45.700 | - And that's just a beautiful, beautiful takedown.

02:02:48.180 | - That's beautiful Judo.

02:02:49.480 | And then-

02:02:52.820 | - And then later in the match, you'll use a Kusarigake,

02:02:55.540 | another classical Judo takedown to get top position.

02:03:00.740 | - Now at one point, John Carlo was in trouble.

02:03:04.340 | He got his back exposed.

02:03:07.900 | - With this situation.

02:03:09.380 | - Good.

02:03:10.220 | - Double leg to-

02:03:14.620 | - To a knee pick.

02:03:15.580 | - Knee pick.

02:03:16.720 | - So he has to expose his back in order to avoid

02:03:20.000 | giving up takedown points.

02:03:21.780 | But here's a defensive training that we work on

02:03:24.180 | is coming through.

02:03:25.620 | He's defensively sound, shuts out the hook,

02:03:28.860 | prevents the score,

02:03:29.960 | keeps his body at the right angle

02:03:33.260 | to prevent a power half Nelson.

02:03:34.900 | Staying calm.

02:03:41.020 | Now he's got to turn this around.

02:03:43.900 | It's one of the hardest things to do in grappling.

02:03:47.500 | - How dangerous is it to put your,

02:03:50.860 | in this position to put your hands on the ground?

02:03:53.940 | - It's ordinarily, it could be dangerous

02:03:56.340 | because your opponent could switch to an armbar.

02:03:58.180 | Whoops, and there's the body lock.

02:04:00.060 | Now there's some controversy here,

02:04:01.980 | but you can clearly see it.

02:04:03.700 | The hands were locked,

02:04:05.860 | so it shouldn't really be as controversial

02:04:07.500 | as people are saying.

02:04:08.460 | Now watch for the right leg kosori gake here.

02:04:11.060 | Pulls in the hips, exposes the leg, boom, and down.

02:04:14.580 | Beautiful kosori gake.

02:04:16.100 | - Also probably a lesson that

02:04:26.420 | complaining to a ref does not protect you

02:04:28.460 | from a good takedown.

02:04:30.180 | - Yeah, that's why they're saying combat sports,

02:04:32.460 | defend yourself at all times.

02:04:33.980 | But now the great advantage of judo takedowns

02:04:38.900 | over wrestling leg tackles

02:04:40.220 | is they confer upper body connection after the takedown,

02:04:43.020 | which is very, very important for ADCC.

02:04:45.500 | That's why we put such a heavy emphasis on them.

02:04:47.980 | And now Giancarlo is absolutely in the driver's seat.

02:04:52.340 | He just scored four points for that takedown,

02:04:54.300 | so he's well ahead at this point.

02:04:56.300 | Against the established favorite

02:04:58.100 | for the entire weight division.

02:05:00.420 | So now Mateus Denis has to start taking some risks.

02:05:03.260 | He's staring down the barrel of defeat,

02:05:05.500 | and there's not that much time left.

02:05:07.260 | And that's what's gonna set up the pressure.

02:05:09.420 | Now it's tactical pressure.

02:05:10.660 | It's not physical pressure, it's tactical.

02:05:12.980 | Mateus has to turn away,

02:05:14.460 | and that's gonna create back exposure.

02:05:17.300 | The most dangerous kind of exposure in ADCC.

02:05:20.340 | Oh, there it is.

02:05:21.900 | Mount to back.

02:05:25.700 | And Giancarlo capitalizes.

02:05:30.700 | Mateus is smart, he's keeping on his side

02:05:35.100 | so that less than 75% of his back is on the floor

02:05:38.300 | to deny the mount points.

02:05:40.420 | But that comes at a price,

02:05:41.940 | and that price is back exposure.

02:05:43.820 | So the thing we talked about with Gordon,

02:05:46.020 | the circumstance of fate,

02:05:50.300 | which is he has a lot of grueling tough matches,

02:05:53.460 | and still chooses to do absolute.

02:05:55.260 | And he seems to just power through all of it.

02:05:58.540 | How much of the calculation is how to survive the cardio,

02:06:04.340 | the grueling cardio aspect of all of this?

02:06:07.020 | - It's a great question, and the truth of the matter is

02:06:09.460 | you can't afford to pace yourself.

02:06:13.660 | Because if you say,

02:06:16.060 | "I'm gonna hold myself back for this match,"

02:06:18.860 | in expectation of the others,

02:06:19.980 | you could end up losing your first match.

02:06:21.900 | - So he didn't pace himself--

02:06:23.540 | - At all. - For any of the matches.

02:06:25.460 | - You have to just be in good shape,

02:06:27.540 | and that's what the camp is for.

02:06:28.860 | - Is someone mental or no?

02:06:31.140 | - No, it's mostly physical.

02:06:32.580 | That's what the camp is for.

02:06:34.940 | Like he's felt more pressure in the training room

02:06:37.140 | than he felt in any of his matches.

02:06:38.940 | - But still sort of attacking.

02:06:43.260 | Look at this.

02:06:44.260 | - That was a beautiful transition.

02:06:46.380 | - From back, or from whatever the heck that position was,

02:06:50.980 | right, from looking for the back, transitioning here.

02:06:55.460 | What the heck is this transition?

02:06:57.220 | - So Mateus is engaging in a very good tactic,

02:07:00.020 | which is to get most of his back off the ground

02:07:01.900 | to deny the mount points.

02:07:03.380 | So as back exposure starts, okay, he turns in--

02:07:06.300 | - Threatening an arm lock.

02:07:07.220 | - Yeah, but you can see what's happening here.

02:07:09.060 | As the left foot goes under,

02:07:10.220 | it's gonna create a beautiful triangle entry.

02:07:12.460 | Right foot penetrates through underneath the neck,

02:07:16.940 | and now he's locking a triangle, a sankaku,

02:07:19.540 | but not just any triangle, a triangle with the figure four

02:07:23.260 | locked on the back of the opponent's head,

02:07:24.820 | which makes any kind of stacking defense

02:07:27.140 | very, very difficult.

02:07:28.100 | It makes it very, very hard for an opponent to pull away,

02:07:30.540 | and creates a much tighter strangle than average.

02:07:33.060 | And as a result, it's a quick submission.

02:07:37.120 | - Beautifully done.

02:07:39.380 | Still chasing the submission.

02:07:41.380 | - Yes.

02:07:42.420 | - With a minute left up on points.

02:07:44.060 | - Against the former champion.

02:07:45.680 | - Against the former champion.

02:07:47.620 | That's match number two.

02:07:49.460 | Now, that's the first day, that's Saturday.

02:07:52.180 | So John Culler goes to sleep that night thinking,

02:07:55.020 | okay, I just beat a world champion in my first match

02:07:57.780 | and almost submitted him,

02:07:58.940 | and I just submitted the defending champion.

02:08:01.200 | So of course he wakes up on Sunday morning

02:08:03.020 | feeling pretty damn good.

02:08:04.500 | Now, there's an interesting twist here.

02:08:06.200 | His opponent is a talented young Irishman

02:08:10.140 | who won European trials, I believe,

02:08:12.120 | almost entirely with leg locks,

02:08:14.060 | and almost all of his major attacks in the tournament

02:08:16.380 | so far have been leg locks.

02:08:17.440 | Now, bear in mind that a year ago,

02:08:19.300 | John Culler was losing to local blue belt competitors

02:08:21.740 | via leg lock.

02:08:22.940 | So in my mind, I'm thinking, okay,

02:08:25.100 | how's he gonna handle this?

02:08:26.540 | Will the leg lock training kick in?

02:08:28.740 | And you'll see the result.

02:08:30.060 | John Culler is on top, passing an open guard.

02:08:40.700 | - So you can see--

02:08:41.540 | - Keeping his legs away from any attacks.

02:08:43.660 | - Yes.

02:08:44.500 | His opponent, Owen, from Ireland,

02:08:46.020 | is employing the same tactics

02:08:47.580 | that we made famous years ago,

02:08:50.380 | the idea of sitting to butterfly guard

02:08:51.860 | and looking to entangle the legs.

02:08:53.640 | He's kind of playing that game.

02:08:56.180 | So John Culler's obviously used to this

02:08:57.820 | from training in the gym.

02:08:59.560 | So he's doing a good job of preventing entanglement,

02:09:02.140 | controlling his opponent's shoelaces,

02:09:04.060 | and moving out to an angle

02:09:05.140 | which limits his opponent's entry options.

02:09:07.100 | - So hands on the shoelaces and angles

02:09:09.860 | is a good defense here.

02:09:12.700 | - It's an initial defense.

02:09:14.340 | Now, his opponent wants to get

02:09:15.420 | underneath the center of gravity.

02:09:17.060 | So John Culler wants to get outside the line of his legs.

02:09:21.180 | At some point, your opponent's going to entangle.

02:09:23.420 | If he's determined to entangle,

02:09:24.820 | at some point it's going to happen.

02:09:26.520 | So John Culler decides, okay, let's let it happen,

02:09:30.180 | and let's see where his feet go,

02:09:31.420 | and let's see how disciplined he is with his feet.

02:09:33.940 | And the opponent's inverted.

02:09:38.540 | Here, he does a good job getting behind John Culler's knee.

02:09:46.420 | So now they're fully locked in.

02:09:48.060 | So John Culler moves away to protect the heel,

02:09:51.020 | rotates out, controls his shoelace.

02:09:53.540 | Now, at this point, the Irishman's starting to lose

02:09:56.260 | discipline with his own foot position.

02:09:59.140 | He's so focused on his own attack

02:10:01.540 | that he's starting to get a little sloppy

02:10:03.780 | with his own foot position.

02:10:05.260 | He's assuming, oh, I'm the guy who's attacking,

02:10:07.860 | so my opponent will be afraid of my leg locks,

02:10:10.940 | and is starting to make some small tactical errors

02:10:14.660 | that John Culler will be able to take advantage of.

02:10:16.580 | - So he's threatening the sort of the north-south passer.

02:10:19.420 | - Yeah, he's not putting too much pressure on the pass,

02:10:26.060 | 'cause we're still pretty early in the match,

02:10:27.900 | and he's not ready to score yet.

02:10:30.700 | So here again, he turns away his heel.

02:10:32.860 | Now his opponent's starting to get more and more cavalier

02:10:35.860 | with his foot positioning,

02:10:37.620 | to a point where now it's just downright sloppy.

02:10:43.020 | So John Culler sees it, identifies it,

02:10:45.260 | locks up a wrist-to-wrist toehold, and breaks his foot.

02:10:49.400 | - Where's the, dumb question, where's the control here?

02:10:58.300 | How is he?

02:10:59.260 | - The control comes from his opponent.

02:11:01.500 | The entanglement is his opponent's.

02:11:03.980 | - Ah.

02:11:04.900 | - His opponent is holding his own body in place

02:11:07.820 | with his own legs.

02:11:09.100 | So he's the root of his own problem here.

02:11:13.320 | - So he got sloppy, well done, well done.

02:11:16.440 | And a little smile from John Culler, that's very nice.

02:11:19.440 | - The reason for that smile, you can probably guess,

02:11:21.600 | is because a year ago, this would have been a disaster.

02:11:26.600 | And now instead, it's a guaranteed ticket to the finals

02:11:30.560 | in either a gold or a silver medal.

02:11:32.320 | And so you can see in that compressed moment,

02:11:35.160 | that's the look of a man who's made,

02:11:37.400 | who's just recognized just how much progress he's made,

02:11:39.840 | and what was once a weakness in roughly 10 months

02:11:43.600 | was the time it took.

02:11:45.120 | - And so he faces Lucas Hulk Barbosa in the final here.

02:11:50.120 | - Now these two have a history.

02:11:52.680 | Hulk has beaten John Culler many times.

02:11:56.480 | And so for John Culler, it's a question of,

02:12:00.520 | okay, here I'm matched up against a guy

02:12:03.200 | who's repeatedly beaten me.

02:12:05.300 | How am I gonna turn this around now?

02:12:09.280 | And in terms of, we talked earlier about confidence.

02:12:13.600 | If confidence was just a mental thing,

02:12:15.840 | John Culler never would have won this fight.

02:12:18.960 | When you've lost all those times to an athlete,

02:12:22.080 | words aren't gonna change anything.

02:12:25.400 | But you can see right from the start,

02:12:27.120 | when they get into the hand fight,

02:12:28.400 | John Culler is much more tactically adept

02:12:31.440 | with his hand fighting.

02:12:32.440 | He's doing a good job of controlling his opponent's hands,

02:12:35.040 | preventing any kind of prolonged pressure on the head.

02:12:38.440 | And Hulk gets a sense here in which he realized

02:12:42.160 | he's fighting a very different person.

02:12:44.060 | - And this goes a long time.

02:12:49.680 | Again, another super grueling match.

02:12:54.960 | Wrestling that eventually leads to a back take here,

02:12:59.960 | back triangle, body triangle, I apologize.

02:13:08.120 | Here you can see the same tactics utilized by Gordon Ryan.

02:13:12.480 | Back control based around the body triangle.

02:13:15.840 | Many attempts to try and trap his opponent's arm

02:13:18.400 | and take away those defensive arms.

02:13:20.560 | The main difference here is, again,

02:13:22.120 | you have an athlete with a very powerful, compact neck,

02:13:24.880 | so neck penetration is difficult.

02:13:27.200 | And so John Culler will switch to a palm-to-palm strangle

02:13:31.000 | instead of the conventional figure four.

02:13:36.920 | And now there's eight minutes left,

02:13:39.480 | so all the time in the world.

02:13:42.640 | Is it only just a matter of time at this point

02:13:45.760 | in situations like this?

02:13:47.040 | - Yeah, John Culler has a massive tactical lead in points.

02:13:50.440 | There's literally no way he could lose this match

02:13:52.460 | at this point.

02:13:54.040 | Even if his opponent did get out of here and take him down,

02:13:57.120 | John Culler would still be ahead on points.

02:13:59.280 | So this question, the question now is not whether

02:14:04.960 | John Culler will get the gold medal,

02:14:06.440 | but whether John Culler will get it by submission.

02:14:08.960 | And there it is, there's the penetration of the neck.

02:14:11.680 | And he can't get the figure four,

02:14:13.440 | so he opts for palm-to-palm instead,

02:14:15.160 | and there's the submission.

02:14:16.520 | Now-- - What a journey.

02:14:23.520 | What a-- - John Culler's

02:14:24.720 | a relatively unemotional man,

02:14:26.360 | but you can see there's emotion.

02:14:28.760 | That's not fake, that's genuine.

02:14:30.320 | And that's the emotions of a man who,

02:14:32.420 | 10 months ago, couldn't have done that.

02:14:35.520 | And then 10 months later, by dint of his own hard work

02:14:38.520 | and dedication and his ability to actively attack

02:14:43.520 | his weaknesses and turn them into strengths,

02:14:46.760 | and then develop an ability to finish,

02:14:51.760 | that was a truly, truly remarkable achievement.

02:14:54.940 | - Let me ask you about Gary Tonin.

02:14:58.480 | So he is one of the, at least in my opinion,

02:15:05.560 | greatest submission grapplers of all time.

02:15:07.560 | There's a lot of components to that.

02:15:09.520 | But he lost in his first match.

02:15:12.240 | - Not only did Gary lose,

02:15:13.920 | he lost to the bottom seed of his division.

02:15:17.440 | And that in itself says something pretty remarkable

02:15:20.040 | about what's happening in ADCC,

02:15:21.800 | how there's a sense in which the days of

02:15:26.240 | the invited athletes being far superior

02:15:30.920 | to the trials winners are over.

02:15:32.720 | It was a clear signal that anyone who makes it to ADCC

02:15:36.720 | can beat the best people.

02:15:38.320 | Sam McNally is a very talented submission grappler

02:15:43.320 | from Ireland.

02:15:44.160 | He specializes mostly in armbars,

02:15:46.680 | but he has a good positional game as well.

02:15:48.400 | Has a very modern look to his jiu-jitsu.

02:15:51.840 | And he did a fantastic job against Gary Tonin.

02:15:55.960 | I think tactically, Gary perhaps got a little far away

02:16:01.060 | from his true nature in grappling,

02:16:05.520 | which is relentless submission attack.

02:16:07.840 | And perhaps I should be given blame for this

02:16:12.440 | because I put such a heavy emphasis

02:16:13.880 | on the training camp overall on positional pressure.

02:16:18.320 | And I feel that worked very well for all of the athletes

02:16:20.640 | except Gary Tonin.

02:16:21.800 | - Interesting, so you have to acknowledge

02:16:26.000 | the nature of the athlete's part.

02:16:27.720 | And I think I was coaching so hard to the new people

02:16:31.180 | in the room on positional pressure

02:16:33.220 | that I neglected Gary's innate ability to,

02:16:37.540 | the fact that he does best when he attacks exclusively

02:16:40.780 | by submission.

02:16:42.020 | So I think if anyone should get blamed for the failure here,

02:16:45.020 | it should be me.

02:16:46.660 | - There's another comment as maybe I'm over,

02:16:49.960 | overvaluing the sort of just the physical aspect of this,

02:16:57.160 | but it seemed like Gary looks skinny.

02:17:00.340 | Is the weight cut difficult?

02:17:02.820 | - This is the first time he ever went down to the 66 kilos.

02:17:07.020 | So it wasn't critical.

02:17:10.140 | There's other guys who are bigger than him

02:17:12.100 | who made the weight.

02:17:13.100 | - But the weight cut, if you can just comment on,

02:17:15.900 | is that, does that ever play a part in the athletes,

02:17:19.220 | the physical and the mental aspect of the weight cut?

02:17:22.940 | It is a thing, wrestling, that could break

02:17:26.020 | given some of the toughest minds.

02:17:27.640 | - Yeah, but no, it wasn't a weight cut

02:17:29.960 | that would break someone like Gary Turner.

02:17:31.860 | And it was, it's more physical.

02:17:34.160 | You train lighter and weaker.

02:17:36.520 | You tend to get injured more in camp 'cause you're lighter.

02:17:39.280 | We have a team now after the breakout

02:17:42.840 | that's mostly comprised of people over 215 pounds.

02:17:46.760 | So there's very few small people left in the gym.

02:17:50.440 | Most of the smaller athletes went to B team.

02:17:54.280 | So Gary's been struggling a little bit

02:17:57.220 | with training partners.

02:17:58.760 | But here I think the chief problem was that

02:18:04.160 | Gary focused perhaps a little too much

02:18:07.400 | on the positional tactical game

02:18:09.560 | and got away from his true gift,

02:18:11.720 | which is relentless hunting for submissions.

02:18:15.840 | And as I said, I think the person to blame for that is me

02:18:18.080 | because I had to put so much emphasis

02:18:20.400 | on the positional game for the developing athletes

02:18:24.440 | that I didn't pay enough attention

02:18:26.540 | to Gary's unique attributes.

02:18:28.960 | - So this, I mentioned I posted some stuff on Reddit.

02:18:31.720 | So there's a relevant question here.

02:18:33.520 | Somebody on Reddit asked, Gordon has said,

02:18:38.000 | and perhaps you have said as well,

02:18:39.880 | that there are two types of jiu-jitsu practitioners,

02:18:43.240 | ones who move themselves around like Marcel Garcia

02:18:46.640 | and ones that control the motion of their opponents

02:18:49.480 | like Gordon.

02:18:50.560 | What are the strengths and weaknesses of each approach?

02:18:54.040 | And how do those different approaches apply

02:18:57.480 | depending on which weight class you're in?

02:18:59.600 | - That's a great set of questions.

02:19:01.520 | Yes, I'm the person who promulgates this idea

02:19:06.080 | that there's two broad ways you can go in jiu-jitsu.

02:19:08.280 | You can either focus on promoting your own movement

02:19:13.280 | to create opportunity

02:19:15.540 | or by restricting the other person's movement.

02:19:19.080 | If you're a slower, less athletic opponent,

02:19:23.700 | then you should definitely focus on the idea

02:19:26.080 | of restricting the other fellow's movement.

02:19:27.960 | That's how slow, unathletic people win in jiu-jitsu.

02:19:31.760 | If you're quick with the ability to change direction,

02:19:35.400 | stand up quickly, go down quickly,

02:19:38.040 | and move like a leopard,

02:19:41.380 | then you're almost always better off generating movement

02:19:45.200 | in order to create opportunity.

02:19:48.300 | So one is based more on movement as the source

02:19:51.560 | of opportunity, one is based more upon pressure

02:19:54.120 | as the source of opportunity.

02:19:56.240 | So you'll get someone like Gary Tonin

02:19:58.000 | or the Rua Tolo brothers.

02:19:59.600 | Their game is based around the idea

02:20:01.320 | of promoting their own movement to create opportunity.

02:20:05.340 | Whereas someone like Gordon Ryan or Hodri Gracie

02:20:07.280 | is about restricting movement

02:20:08.880 | and using that pressure to create reactive opportunity.

02:20:13.200 | Those are the two paths you can take in jiu-jitsu.

02:20:15.760 | Because our team now has become mostly associated

02:20:18.580 | with people over 200 pounds,

02:20:19.960 | and because most of them were beginners,

02:20:21.220 | I took the more high percentage approach of,

02:20:24.020 | okay, let's focus primarily on controlling

02:20:28.020 | the other fellow's movement.

02:20:29.420 | But Gary's a unique individual,

02:20:32.860 | and I feel like I let him down

02:20:34.220 | by not giving him special attention

02:20:37.820 | in regards to what he does.

02:20:40.780 | - The fact that you've mentioned this now

02:20:42.220 | like four times in the span of a few minutes,

02:20:45.500 | just, I love that,

02:20:47.160 | that all of this stuff weighs so heavy on you.

02:20:49.520 | And he is a truly special person,

02:20:52.760 | and it is truly interesting to see

02:20:55.080 | what is the nature of a particular athlete

02:20:57.480 | that if you highlight makes them shine.

02:21:00.560 | Let's go to the part where Gary actually loses the match.

02:21:03.560 | Okay, so the match is pretty innocuous at this point.

02:21:06.160 | The guy does a good job of turning into the arm,

02:21:08.960 | and Gary gets caught reaching from the knees.

02:21:14.040 | Okay, that's always a mistake.

02:21:15.680 | And the guy does, I think,

02:21:17.240 | does a great job capitalizing on it.

02:21:19.480 | Now, there's limited time left on the clock.

02:21:21.600 | This guy realizes, oh, this is my opportunity.

02:21:23.920 | He's got good flexibility, and he gets the hook.

02:21:25.680 | So if he just frees it right there.

02:21:27.500 | So there's a minute and a half left,

02:21:29.400 | and typically in ADCC, if you get the bag,

02:21:32.640 | you score three points, so this is a huge score.

02:21:36.160 | For Gary to win here, it's gotta be by submission, okay?

02:21:41.000 | So Gary's made one mistake.

02:21:43.320 | Now, this talented young fellow from Ireland

02:21:47.280 | does a great job, not only of getting the bag,

02:21:49.080 | but he really attacks well from the bag.

02:21:51.000 | And let's look at the depth

02:21:53.000 | of Gary Tonin's defensive acumen here.

02:21:55.040 | - And we should say, leading up to this,

02:21:57.000 | his defense is incredible.

02:21:58.440 | - Yes.

02:21:59.260 | - He keeps escaping every position.

02:22:00.680 | - Our nickname for Gary is the Slippery Salmon,

02:22:02.820 | because it's like trying to hold a goddamn salmon

02:22:04.780 | on the riverbank, trying to hold onto this kid.

02:22:06.960 | So he gets into a position

02:22:08.260 | which looks absolutely hopeless here.

02:22:09.960 | It gets worse.

02:22:10.780 | This is already bad.

02:22:12.200 | But-- - It's one of the most fun things

02:22:16.040 | to watch about Gary is the skill and the escapes.

02:22:18.560 | It's incredible.

02:22:20.040 | It's beautiful to watch.

02:22:21.560 | - So the guy has an excellent opportunity

02:22:23.200 | to transition off here into a rear triangle,

02:22:25.000 | which is one of the hardest things

02:22:26.040 | in the world to get out of.

02:22:27.480 | And from here, if this was anyone but Gary Tonin,

02:22:30.480 | I think it would have been curtains.

02:22:32.280 | But you see, Gary just extends, keeps his arm,

02:22:36.520 | but just the right angle to pop out and gets out.

02:22:38.480 | So now Gary's like, oh, crap,

02:22:40.520 | I'm gonna lose to this fucking guy.

02:22:42.280 | So he's got a minute left to do something.

02:22:43.800 | So he goes back into his submission mode.

02:22:45.560 | He goes back to who Gary Tonin is

02:22:47.720 | and immediately goes into leg lock action.

02:22:51.040 | Now, the young man from Ireland realizes,

02:22:56.040 | hey, I'm gonna win this match against the number one seed.

02:22:59.360 | So Gary goes into the legs,

02:23:01.060 | gets to one of his favorite techniques, the heel hook.

02:23:05.360 | Now Gary has a brutal heel hook as heck

02:23:09.040 | and gets real pressure on the kid's leg.

02:23:12.080 | - Oh, I can't, oh, that's hard to watch.

02:23:15.800 | - Yeah, but to his credit, the kid is smart.

02:23:17.840 | He's like, you know what, let me take some pain.

02:23:22.240 | - Is there a weakness to that?

02:23:24.160 | Like, where he turned his hips.

02:23:26.560 | - Yeah, it's unclear from the video

02:23:28.120 | whether Gary's arm slipped up.

02:23:31.600 | There's considerable breaking pressure.

02:23:33.360 | - Oh, it slipped, I see.

02:23:35.080 | - Yeah, it's unclear.

02:23:35.920 | - Even before the slip.

02:23:36.760 | - Sometimes the heel can slip because something's popped.

02:23:41.480 | So it's unclear what happened there.

02:23:43.240 | There seems to be a reaction from the part of the opponent.

02:23:45.200 | Like, it definitely did some damage.

02:23:47.920 | So Gary goes back for a second one.

02:23:49.640 | - Oh, no.

02:23:51.080 | - And again, you get that same kind of pressure.

02:23:53.560 | - Oh, no.

02:23:54.840 | - Oh, right.

02:23:55.680 | - But I like the Irish kid's reaction though.

02:23:58.160 | He's just like, you know what, let me eat this

02:24:00.020 | 'cause I'm gonna win this match

02:24:01.240 | and I'm gonna be a legend for beating Gary Tonin.

02:24:03.040 | So I admired his internal fortitude.

02:24:05.800 | And, but now Gary knows he's lost it.

02:24:08.800 | So there's a sense there in which you see

02:24:12.060 | how close it gets in these situations,

02:24:14.720 | how little there is between winner and loser.

02:24:16.520 | And sometimes you just get these heartbreaking situations

02:24:20.560 | where someone who ordinarily you would probably

02:24:23.120 | do very well against and you make one mistake

02:24:26.300 | and it's an unrewarding, uncompromising sport.

02:24:30.160 | One mistake can be fatal.

02:24:31.440 | - In class, you talked about escapes for arm locks

02:24:34.000 | and it applies here as well.

02:24:35.580 | So you were teaching arm lock escapes

02:24:38.200 | and I think choke escapes.

02:24:41.200 | And the question came up of when should an athlete not tap

02:24:45.320 | and risk their arm being broken.

02:24:47.120 | And you quoted George Patton as of course you would,

02:24:50.360 | that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.

02:24:53.120 | He won it by making some other bastard die for his country.

02:24:56.560 | So what's your view on when to tap

02:24:58.320 | and when not to tap in competition?

02:25:00.560 | - First off, in training,

02:25:01.780 | you should be tapping very early

02:25:04.480 | because you're not getting paid to fight in the gym.

02:25:08.400 | You're getting paid to fight on stage.

02:25:09.840 | So be a professional in the gym, tap early, tap fast.

02:25:14.560 | That way you'll last a lot longer.

02:25:16.960 | In competition, things are a little different.

02:25:18.820 | We also have to specify what is the situation.

02:25:21.520 | Okay, if you're in the first round of ADCC,

02:25:24.000 | your first match, you get caught,

02:25:25.760 | I would always expect my students to tap

02:25:30.020 | because if you get your leg broken

02:25:33.300 | or your arm broken in the first round,

02:25:35.380 | you still got three more matches before you get to the final.

02:25:37.500 | - There is a escape clause there

02:25:39.800 | is if you're a guy from Ireland

02:25:42.180 | and you're fighting the number one seed.

02:25:44.100 | - There is always an escape clause, yeah.

02:25:46.540 | - Like let it snap.

02:25:47.900 | - Yeah, let it go.

02:25:48.940 | But--

02:25:50.500 | - Your students, yes.

02:25:51.780 | - Yeah, I would expect them to tap.

02:25:53.700 | I also think that if you're in a stranglehold,

02:25:57.460 | it doesn't make a lot of sense in not tapping

02:25:59.940 | 'cause you're gonna pass out.

02:26:01.600 | It's like you said in chess,

02:26:06.520 | it's kind of impolite to make the guy

02:26:09.300 | take it through to his conclusion.

02:26:10.720 | So I don't see any heroism

02:26:13.720 | and just letting yourself pass out.

02:26:16.100 | Now, things change when you get into a final.

02:26:20.320 | If you're in a final and you're ahead on points

02:26:24.080 | and you're willing to,

02:26:28.280 | most people at that point are gonna be willing

02:26:30.280 | to let something break in order to win a gold medal.

02:26:32.880 | At that point, I leave it up to the student.

02:26:36.800 | It's a deeply personal decision.

02:26:38.400 | I would never say to a student,

02:26:40.000 | "I expect you to let your body break

02:26:42.440 | "in order to win a gold medal."

02:26:44.580 | I think my students are more than mature enough

02:26:47.760 | to make up their own minds.

02:26:49.440 | I would be angry if they let their bodies break

02:26:53.400 | in a meaningless fashion in some random tournament

02:26:58.120 | or in a first round match where there's no way

02:27:00.320 | you could have go on to the second, third and fourth matches

02:27:04.240 | with a broken limb.

02:27:05.620 | But in a final, in a gold medal match in ADCC,

02:27:11.760 | I would leave the decision to them,

02:27:13.440 | a spontaneous decision in the moment.

02:27:15.060 | I would be confident that I had prepared them

02:27:17.160 | to do their very best to defend themselves.

02:27:19.500 | But what ultimately they do is their decision.

02:27:24.160 | And winning ADCC is, for a grappler at least, life-changing.

02:27:29.080 | You're a world champion forever

02:27:30.880 | and no one can ever take that moment away from you.

02:27:33.520 | So I would understand if they took a decision

02:27:38.160 | to take damage.

02:27:39.440 | Hopefully it will never come to that

02:27:40.720 | because I do a good job of preparing people

02:27:42.480 | to get out of situations as you saw with Gary Turner.

02:27:45.160 | He was in a dreadful situation

02:27:47.040 | and got out within five seconds.

02:27:48.520 | - I saw that.

02:27:49.360 | - Gary's been in arm locks that looked like

02:27:53.120 | even I was in the corner going like,

02:27:54.520 | "Oh my God, what is happening here?"

02:27:56.080 | And still got out.

02:27:57.280 | So it comes down to training preparation.

02:28:00.020 | But if they did make that decision,

02:28:02.960 | I would understand provided it was a situation

02:28:06.000 | that would make their lives better.

02:28:08.240 | And they made a calculation, it's not an emotional thing.

02:28:11.560 | Now, sometimes you get emotional,

02:28:13.400 | you fight a guy you just don't like

02:28:14.920 | and you just don't wanna tap to him.

02:28:16.720 | Then things get a little more interesting.

02:28:21.400 | Then again, it's a personal decision.

02:28:24.720 | If you hate someone so much

02:28:25.920 | that you literally can't even conceive of yourself

02:28:28.240 | submitting to them,

02:28:29.200 | probably best you don't get into matches

02:28:31.960 | with them in the first place.

02:28:33.960 | But if it should happen, again, it comes down to the student.

02:28:37.980 | I teach technique, not morals.

02:28:40.680 | So I let people make their own decisions on that.

02:28:43.480 | My thing is, look, don't get injured

02:28:45.080 | 'cause if you're injured, you can't train.

02:28:46.400 | You can't train, you can't get better.

02:28:48.180 | So stay away from injury as much as you can.

02:28:51.480 | - So one of the other incredible stories here is,

02:28:54.560 | as you mentioned, Nicholas Meragali,

02:28:56.840 | one of the incredible gi athletes in jiu-jitsu world,

02:29:01.840 | not ever having done no gi training or competition

02:29:06.920 | and so on in a period of a year.

02:29:09.280 | - Actually, it's significantly less than a year.

02:29:11.160 | Nicholas only came about six months, I believe,

02:29:15.200 | before ADCC as a phone call came from Gordon.

02:29:18.120 | He was just like, okay, Nicholas wants to come down

02:29:20.640 | and train, wants to move to Austin.

02:29:22.800 | So he came down, it was funny.

02:29:25.000 | I remember the first day Nicholas came in,

02:29:28.040 | Nicholas Meragali, as you can see,

02:29:29.400 | he's this tall, handsome Brazilian guy

02:29:32.680 | with a great personality and a wonderful smile.

02:29:35.440 | - Yeah, also a super nice guy.

02:29:37.240 | - So he comes in, he sits down on the mat,

02:29:38.960 | and we're all kind of looking at the new guy

02:29:40.720 | and introducing ourselves.

02:29:42.800 | And I look at him, I go,

02:29:44.520 | buddy, what the fuck are you doing here?

02:29:47.160 | And he's like, what do you mean?

02:29:48.480 | And I go, look at you, you're tall and good looking.

02:29:53.040 | You should be a fucking model, not a jiu-jitsu guy.

02:29:54.840 | Look at us, we're all fucked up

02:29:56.000 | with horrible bodies and bad personalities.

02:29:58.960 | You're like a happy, good-looking guy.

02:30:01.200 | You should be surrounded by supermodels.

02:30:02.880 | What are you doing jiu-jitsu for?

02:30:04.080 | And he just laughed and he started training with us.

02:30:07.120 | So he came in.

02:30:10.360 | Now, historically, he has been an athlete

02:30:13.800 | who always pulled guard.

02:30:16.400 | In jiu-jitsu parlance for your viewers,

02:30:18.880 | in jiu-jitsu, you have the option

02:30:21.520 | of sitting down to the ground.

02:30:22.800 | Jiu-jitsu was mostly performed on the ground.

02:30:25.800 | And many athletes take advantage of this.

02:30:27.320 | They just come out and sit to the ground position

02:30:29.920 | and completely forego takedowns.

02:30:32.160 | Nicholas did this his entire career.

02:30:35.480 | Jiu-jitsu also is practiced both gi and no-gi.

02:30:38.080 | Nicholas was a shining light in the gi side of jiu-jitsu.

02:30:43.600 | He was one of the great champions of his era.

02:30:46.000 | But he had not only never competed without a gi,

02:30:49.120 | he'd never even trained without a gi.

02:30:51.520 | So there's significant differences between the two.

02:30:54.840 | There's a lot of overlap,

02:30:55.760 | but there's also some very significant differences.

02:30:58.760 | We're talking about a sport where even small differences

02:31:01.400 | can make a difference between a guy

02:31:02.920 | who gets the gold medal

02:31:04.480 | versus a guy who loses his first match.

02:31:07.440 | It doesn't take a lot.

02:31:08.920 | So this was a very, very tall order.

02:31:13.920 | - Yeah, a lot of his attacks involve the gi from guard.

02:31:17.200 | - Absolutely.

02:31:18.040 | - He's in a very dangerous attack.

02:31:19.560 | - He doesn't just wear the gi, he really uses the gi.

02:31:22.240 | Like 90% of what he's based around

02:31:24.600 | is based around a combination of cross

02:31:26.400 | and straight collar controls

02:31:27.520 | with the control of the sleeve cuff.

02:31:29.960 | And so he really actively uses the gi.

02:31:32.760 | So when it came off, his first training decisions were like,

02:31:35.200 | oh, he looked like a fish out of water.

02:31:38.800 | In addition, he had no experience of leg locking.

02:31:41.600 | So one of the most significant parts of the modern game,

02:31:44.320 | he just had nothing.

02:31:45.400 | - Plus the wrestling.

02:31:47.960 | - He had literally zero wrestling,

02:31:49.880 | which is half of ADCC is based around this.

02:31:53.880 | So ADCC is like six months away

02:31:56.600 | and he has to get ready for the gi world championships.

02:32:00.160 | Nicholas had won many accolades in gi judo,

02:32:03.240 | but he had never won the open weight division of gi world.

02:32:08.360 | So he's like, the first day he's there, he's like,

02:32:10.680 | "John, I wanna be the first guy to win gi open weight

02:32:15.680 | and ADCC open weight in the same year."

02:32:21.120 | - Yeah.

02:32:21.960 | - I'm like, yeah.

02:32:25.520 | Now in my mind, I'm thinking like,

02:32:32.840 | yeah, that's never gonna fucking happen, you fucking weirdo.

02:32:35.440 | - Do you think there was a degree

02:32:37.200 | to which he actually believed that?

02:32:39.000 | - A degree.

02:32:41.480 | He thought it was like a certainty.

02:32:43.760 | So he's looking at me like, yeah, I'm gonna do this.

02:32:46.400 | So I'm like, well, Nicholas, this is very laudable

02:32:50.560 | and I approve of your confidence,

02:32:53.840 | but this is a difficult goal you've set yourself.

02:32:56.080 | But perhaps maybe like 2024 would be a more realistic.

02:32:59.840 | He's like, no, no, I'm gonna do it.

02:33:01.680 | - In all seriousness, it is incredible

02:33:04.120 | that Nicholas Meragali had the guts

02:33:07.240 | to set such a nearly impossible goal.

02:33:09.880 | So what do you learn from this experience

02:33:13.280 | of setting a goal that most people would say

02:33:16.400 | is just unachievable and him actually almost doing it?

02:33:20.480 | - It's on the surface, just absolutely crazy.

02:33:22.560 | Like when he mentioned the goal to me,

02:33:24.920 | I was, as I said, just looking at him

02:33:27.040 | in almost like disbelief.

02:33:28.120 | I didn't wanna show it on my face.

02:33:29.820 | And yet he came within inches of actually doing it.

02:33:33.360 | He won his first ever gold in the open weight with the Gi

02:33:37.520 | and got to the finals and lost a tight decision

02:33:42.520 | in the finals to take a silver medal.

02:33:45.480 | He wanted two golds, he got a gold and a silver.

02:33:48.000 | And there's a sense in which the sheer audaciousness

02:33:52.200 | of the goal set seemed ludicrous when it first happened.

02:33:57.200 | This is insanity.

02:33:59.640 | And yet he came at it with a plan.

02:34:01.520 | He came at it with his characteristic passion and hard work

02:34:04.960 | and came within inches of doing so.

02:34:07.040 | And there's a sense in which you could look at it as,

02:34:10.200 | oh, he had a plan and it failed.

02:34:12.700 | And yet, of course, no one in their right mind

02:34:15.120 | would look at it that way.

02:34:15.960 | So he set an audacious goal so high

02:34:18.600 | that it seemed impossible.

02:34:19.960 | And it pulled his entire performance up to a level

02:34:23.040 | where even failure creates something truly memorable.

02:34:26.280 | - Do you encourage athletes

02:34:30.280 | or do you not get in their way when they set such a goal?

02:34:34.240 | Maybe even just, forget athletes, human nature.

02:34:37.080 | - Yeah, that's a great question.

02:34:38.860 | There's a sense in which, you know,

02:34:42.040 | you don't wanna make people delusional, that's sad.

02:34:45.720 | But I do believe that if people are sufficiently embedded

02:34:50.720 | in a given project, if they're committed to it

02:34:53.920 | to a certain degree, then you can skimp on many things

02:34:57.780 | in life, but don't skimp on your goals, okay?

02:35:00.600 | Because the bigger your goals,

02:35:02.240 | the bigger your achievements will be.

02:35:03.560 | And even failure, as we saw in the case

02:35:05.760 | of Nicholas Miragalli, I almost frowned,

02:35:09.560 | used the word failure, because if this is failure,

02:35:11.960 | give me more of it, you know?

02:35:13.640 | - Falling slightly short of perfection.

02:35:16.720 | - Falling short of what would otherwise be a perfect year.

02:35:20.500 | Even that still creates such a massive uptick

02:35:27.360 | in your performance that it's absolutely

02:35:30.480 | the right way to go.

02:35:31.980 | But there is a danger to this where people aren't committed

02:35:35.180 | and simply aren't working from a framework

02:35:37.940 | where they can realistically achieve these things,

02:35:40.860 | then it descends into delusion,

02:35:42.820 | and that direction goes towards madness.

02:35:45.120 | You can't have that.

02:35:46.340 | So there has to be some kind of reality check here

02:35:49.820 | where you have to be physically and mentally capable

02:35:55.780 | to some degree of moving towards these goals.

02:35:58.300 | You can't just, you know, a random blue belt

02:36:01.460 | can't make audacious goals like that.

02:36:03.420 | It's just ludicrous.

02:36:04.800 | But with that in mind, if you're committed

02:36:09.800 | and there's a sense in which this is a definite possibility,

02:36:14.680 | set your goals high, okay?

02:36:16.780 | Make big demands.

02:36:18.020 | Yes, there'll be times of frustration.

02:36:19.560 | There'll be more failure in your lives than otherwise,

02:36:21.920 | but even your failures will be something great,

02:36:24.600 | something memorable.

02:36:25.820 | - See, but in the near term,

02:36:28.240 | you would be hard pressed to find any data

02:36:31.400 | that justifies that goal.

02:36:33.320 | Because in his case, he probably wasn't very good at Nogi

02:36:37.320 | even in the training room.

02:36:39.120 | So it's like, where do you look for even inklings of hope?

02:36:44.120 | - We saw an incremental progress

02:36:46.960 | with each successive competition that he was in.

02:36:50.520 | His first competition, he looked good, but not great.

02:36:55.520 | Second competition, a little better.

02:36:57.760 | Third competition, took on one of the legends

02:37:00.200 | of American grappling and won decisively.

02:37:04.080 | So there was a sense in which it was becoming

02:37:05.740 | more realistic with each outing.

02:37:07.780 | - So now putting that inspiring philosophy aside,

02:37:12.120 | what was the actual plan on how to make it happen?

02:37:15.120 | - So-- - So the leg locks.

02:37:16.920 | - First, same thing with John Carle.

02:37:18.720 | First, you gotta learn how to defend a leg lock.

02:37:20.400 | So initially, just as John Carle struggled, he struggled.

02:37:25.400 | Then he had to learn not just takedowns,

02:37:30.520 | but just how to set up a takedown.

02:37:31.920 | He had to learn basics like stance and motion

02:37:34.400 | and how to fight with the hands, et cetera, et cetera.

02:37:37.360 | So he had to learn from the ground up.

02:37:39.760 | And then he had to improve.

02:37:44.080 | He always had a very good triangle,

02:37:46.200 | always had very good arm bar.

02:37:47.360 | Those were his two strengths coming into the no-gi training.

02:37:50.360 | And those translate pretty well between gi and no-gi.

02:37:53.060 | But he had no guillotine.

02:37:55.200 | He had no, his strangles from the back were,

02:37:58.680 | his great collar strangles from the back,

02:38:00.240 | but he really, really struggled

02:38:01.920 | with finishing people from the back.

02:38:03.720 | So he's learning all this.

02:38:06.440 | And then he's like, "Well, now I gotta get ready

02:38:09.080 | "for the gi."

02:38:10.200 | So we had to switch his training to gi training.

02:38:13.320 | And that took out a couple of months.

02:38:15.560 | Then he went back briefly to Brazil

02:38:18.000 | and got a terrible rib injury

02:38:19.320 | right before the world championships

02:38:21.600 | and came back more or less unable to move.

02:38:24.660 | So the world championships is a week away.

02:38:26.880 | And he's like, "John, I can't move."

02:38:28.960 | So I'm like, "What are you gonna do?"

02:38:31.200 | He said, "I'm gonna compete."

02:38:33.360 | So I'm like, "Are you sure?"

02:38:35.600 | So we fly to California.

02:38:37.160 | He goes out and competes.

02:38:38.040 | His first opponent is literally the biggest man

02:38:41.960 | who competes in jiu-jitsu.

02:38:44.960 | This man is almost like 400 pounds.

02:38:47.080 | Nicholas has got completely broken ribs.

02:38:48.800 | We're taping up his ribs backstage

02:38:50.560 | before he goes out to compete.

02:38:52.240 | He beats everyone by submission

02:38:55.140 | and wins for the first time the open weight,

02:38:58.380 | a title he had never won before.

02:39:02.520 | He steps off the mat, looks at me, he goes,

02:39:05.620 | "Well, I got the first of them."

02:39:06.960 | He won it, gi, open weight, and now ADCC.

02:39:10.840 | And now he can barely move.

02:39:12.600 | He's still gone through two days of brutal competition.

02:39:14.800 | And his ribs are completely screwed up.

02:39:16.740 | Takes a week off to try and get his ribs

02:39:19.920 | somewhere back in order,

02:39:21.320 | and then begins light training, building up to ADCC.

02:39:24.640 | We start putting him in no-gi competition.

02:39:27.160 | He fights two opponents of good quality,

02:39:33.240 | but not like world-beating quality.

02:39:35.800 | And then as his game starts improving,

02:39:39.000 | we're getting closer and closer,

02:39:40.000 | he's starting to develop a sense

02:39:41.920 | where he can wrestle confidently on his feet.

02:39:44.520 | He's no longer easy to leg lock at all,

02:39:49.160 | and is starting to leg lock people.

02:39:51.520 | And is starting to get his very strong guard passing,

02:39:55.320 | which was based mostly around pant grips and the gi,

02:39:59.960 | to adapt to leg no-gi grips.

02:40:03.260 | In addition, he's starting to develop

02:40:05.880 | strong chest-to-chest positioning,

02:40:07.760 | which was never really part of his game,

02:40:09.320 | a pressure top game.

02:40:11.320 | And so things are looking good.

02:40:16.280 | He's matched against Rafael Lovato,

02:40:19.000 | one of the great competitors of ADCC,

02:40:22.080 | and wins a convincing victory,

02:40:24.920 | featuring a lot of takedowns and a lot of pressure passing.

02:40:27.720 | And people were just absolutely shocked.

02:40:29.960 | I remember the staff of Flow Grappling

02:40:32.400 | coming and going like, "Who is this guy?

02:40:34.960 | He's literally transforming, he's like a different person."

02:40:38.320 | So he goes into the World Championships.

02:40:40.800 | In his weight division,

02:40:43.000 | he was matched with a fellow Brazilian in the first match,

02:40:47.560 | and they had an absolute barn burning battle,

02:40:50.880 | where at one point, Nicholas was picked up and slammed,

02:40:53.440 | and then ended up winning by Kimura, beautiful Kimura.

02:40:56.340 | Then he took on the man who ultimately wins

02:41:01.560 | ADCC open weight division, and defeats him.

02:41:04.460 | - And again, grueling matches.

02:41:07.080 | - Yeah, tough, tough match.

02:41:08.400 | Now, Yuri Samoi at that stage

02:41:09.840 | was two-time gold medalist in ADCC.

02:41:12.360 | Nicholas wins a very, very close match against him,

02:41:16.040 | and then fights Craig Jones,

02:41:17.480 | who's one of the best leg lockers in the world.

02:41:20.960 | So I think most people were expecting Nicholas

02:41:23.080 | to get leg locked very easily by Craig.

02:41:25.200 | Nicholas showed the degree to which he had improved

02:41:29.960 | his leg lock defense in a six-month period.

02:41:33.200 | Craig never really got close to the legs,

02:41:35.720 | and ended up becoming a takedown battle.

02:41:37.560 | Could have gone either way.

02:41:39.200 | Craig, I thought, did a really good job of pacing himself.

02:41:42.680 | Both athletes were very tired,

02:41:44.680 | but Nicholas was ahead on points,

02:41:48.000 | and then Craig hit one last takedown,

02:41:50.080 | which set Nicholas down to a hip.

02:41:52.280 | Didn't score, but it was the most aggressive takedown

02:41:55.760 | of that last period, and so Nicholas got the nod,

02:41:58.800 | and won a narrow victory.

02:42:00.760 | - Yeah, Craig commented afterwards.

02:42:02.920 | He said that, "I really wanted the submission,"

02:42:06.020 | and he said Nicholas seemed to have

02:42:08.080 | really wanted the submission,

02:42:09.600 | but it ended up being a grueling match.

02:42:11.880 | He took everything, like exhaustion-wise, everything he had.

02:42:16.480 | - It was a tough, tough match,

02:42:18.280 | and they were very well matched.

02:42:20.080 | Once they figured out they couldn't submit each other,

02:42:21.760 | it came down to their wrestling ability.

02:42:24.240 | Neither one of them was a wrestling specialist,

02:42:26.240 | but they're both competent in wrestling,

02:42:31.020 | and it became physically very, very tough.

02:42:35.160 | Then Nicholas went on to win the bronze medal

02:42:37.420 | in his weight division.

02:42:39.020 | So the next day, when we get called for the open weight,

02:42:42.460 | obviously Giancarlo had won a gold medal.

02:42:44.820 | Everyone agreed that he should go into open weight.

02:42:49.900 | - Did Giancarlo agree?

02:42:51.500 | - Of course, he was--

02:42:53.760 | - I mean, 'cause he didn't have an easy format.

02:42:57.100 | - You don't order people until you ask them.

02:42:59.380 | - No, no, I know.

02:43:00.220 | - But he was delighted.

02:43:01.100 | - I guess the question I'm asking is,

02:43:03.620 | how do you find the strength to then go on to absolutely,

02:43:06.560 | after, because you've done a 14-week training camp

02:43:11.200 | where every day was just as intense as any ADCC day,

02:43:14.520 | so you're used to it at that point.

02:43:16.600 | - But he had very, very long, tough matches.

02:43:19.480 | - But he's used to it.

02:43:21.080 | He's a good athlete.

02:43:22.080 | So Nicholas and Giancarlo went out,

02:43:25.920 | and Giancarlo had a spectacular submission victory

02:43:29.480 | against his first opponent.

02:43:32.520 | Nicholas had some firework matches,

02:43:36.460 | and one of the toughest opponents he came up against

02:43:39.660 | was the brilliant Tai Ruatolo.

02:43:43.260 | They had an absolute barn burner.

02:43:44.900 | It was a very, very close match.

02:43:47.340 | And Tai had an incredible first two matches.

02:43:52.340 | He'd beaten Pedro Mourinho by submission,

02:43:54.860 | and he'd beaten the great Felipe Pena

02:43:57.220 | in a very narrow match, very, very tight.

02:44:00.260 | Felipe lost on a guard pull.

02:44:02.960 | But Felipe is considerably bigger and stronger than Tai.

02:44:06.560 | So for Tai to win that match, even by a guard pull,

02:44:10.080 | was deeply impressive.

02:44:12.040 | It was an action-packed match that went back and forth.

02:44:15.320 | Very, very impressive.

02:44:16.160 | - Can I ask you a small tangent?

02:44:18.040 | Both the Ruatolo brothers had an incredible performance.

02:44:21.000 | What do you think makes them so good,

02:44:23.440 | if you were to analyze their game,

02:44:24.880 | sort of outside of just this specific match?

02:44:26.880 | - Yeah, absolutely.

02:44:28.320 | There's a range of factors.

02:44:29.540 | One is that they started the sport very, very young.

02:44:32.440 | They're probably the first example in American grappling

02:44:37.440 | of American students who started at age four or five.

02:44:43.380 | Most people, when I began jiu-jitsu,

02:44:47.040 | started jiu-jitsu as adults.

02:44:48.920 | I was 28 years old when I had my first lesson

02:44:51.320 | as a white belt.

02:44:52.640 | So in time, people got a little younger.

02:44:56.520 | For example, Nicky Ryan started when I think he was 12.

02:44:59.940 | But the Ruatolo started when they were literally children.

02:45:04.940 | They had excellent coaching,

02:45:06.140 | going all the way up through into their teenage years.

02:45:08.920 | So they had the advantage of starting

02:45:13.300 | the way so many successful athletes do, as children,

02:45:16.540 | and going up through adulthood

02:45:20.060 | and with strong coaching all along the way.

02:45:22.940 | Excellent parental support.

02:45:24.660 | So they had a great history where their youth

02:45:29.660 | didn't show off just how long they'd been in the sport.

02:45:34.480 | - Right.

02:45:35.320 | - So you're dealing with a kid who's 19 years old,

02:45:37.880 | but he's been grappling for 15 years.

02:45:40.320 | And what counts is not your age, but your mat age.

02:45:45.320 | - Quality mat age.

02:45:47.720 | - Yeah, now they were very young in years,

02:45:50.480 | but they were very old in mat age.

02:45:54.040 | - But there's a lot of athletes that have now,

02:45:56.320 | as you correctly said,

02:45:58.200 | have spent from a very early age on the mat,

02:46:01.680 | but still these particular ones stand out.

02:46:04.320 | It's interesting.

02:46:05.160 | - Yeah, no, there's a lot more to it than that.

02:46:06.520 | This is just the first setting the scene.

02:46:09.320 | But what really makes them stand out

02:46:11.720 | is that they've mastered this idea of covering up

02:46:16.720 | and improving initial weaknesses

02:46:20.660 | while building upon strengths.

02:46:22.500 | When the Rua Tolas first encountered my students,

02:46:24.960 | they were relatively easy to leg lock

02:46:27.440 | because none of their training experience

02:46:29.320 | had prepared them for that.

02:46:30.680 | Now, they were young at that time,

02:46:36.000 | I believe like 16 or 17,

02:46:38.400 | and it was an obvious problem for them.

02:46:41.680 | They both got heel hooked by my youngsters also,

02:46:46.680 | Nicky Ryan and Ethan Cralenston.

02:46:51.320 | And you could clearly see that they identified

02:46:56.320 | their current weakness and made prodigious steps

02:47:02.440 | to improve upon it to a point now

02:47:04.180 | where they're winning championships with their own leg locks.

02:47:08.400 | I love the fact that even as teenagers,

02:47:11.060 | they had the maturity to say,

02:47:12.480 | okay, here's an obvious weakness, let's get around this,

02:47:14.880 | let's turn it into a strength.

02:47:16.380 | I love the way they did that.

02:47:18.920 | - And focusing on the weakness

02:47:20.360 | and let that guide you to the thing you're working on.

02:47:22.400 | - But they also, they covered up their weaknesses,

02:47:25.660 | but they also understood what are our actual strengths.

02:47:29.660 | Now, physically, both of the brothers

02:47:32.280 | have extraordinary reach for their height.

02:47:35.400 | They both have extraordinarily long arms for their height.

02:47:39.520 | That means that variations of Karikatama,

02:47:42.480 | in particular, Dastas, Anacondas,

02:47:44.680 | are gonna be much easier for them

02:47:47.680 | and their weight division than for most people.

02:47:49.400 | - These are all chokes.

02:47:50.400 | - Yes, strangleholds.

02:47:51.960 | So they specialize in those.

02:47:54.520 | They adapted a game based around movement

02:47:57.440 | which forces opponents, not with physical pressure,

02:48:02.540 | but with tactical pressure into positions

02:48:05.160 | which expose them to those specialized strangleholds

02:48:08.560 | that they use.

02:48:09.400 | Traditionally, when we looked at the Rutoas

02:48:15.360 | when they were young, we saw that there was a disparity

02:48:17.500 | between their top game and their bottom game.

02:48:19.260 | They were generally much better in top position

02:48:21.520 | than they were in bottom position.

02:48:23.440 | Again, they saw that as a potential weakness

02:48:26.640 | and they turned it around using, again,

02:48:28.880 | their unique long limbs relative to their height.

02:48:33.560 | And they make use of a buggy strangle.

02:48:36.720 | I'm not sure why it's referred to as a buggy strangle,

02:48:38.880 | but basically it's a variation of Karikatama

02:48:41.280 | using the legs done from disadvantageous positions

02:48:43.720 | on bottom.

02:48:45.040 | And they both make brilliant use of that,

02:48:47.680 | not so much as a strangle weapon.

02:48:49.620 | Occasionally they'll strangle someone with it,

02:48:51.100 | but they mostly use it to create pressure

02:48:53.100 | to make people back off.

02:48:54.900 | And as a result, they're able to,

02:48:56.820 | they overcame the disparity between their top game

02:49:00.900 | and their bottom game.

02:49:01.900 | Now their bottom game is part of their offense

02:49:04.260 | and they're very, very successful from there.

02:49:06.380 | And so again, you had that really impressive sense

02:49:09.860 | in which they identified their weaknesses in leg locks

02:49:12.380 | and bottom position, turned it around

02:49:14.300 | and made it into strengths.

02:49:16.220 | And at the same time, they identified,

02:49:18.000 | okay, what are our physical gifts

02:49:20.360 | and how can we maximize their use?

02:49:22.480 | And they created a program of initiating movement

02:49:24.560 | that created tactical rather than physical pressure

02:49:27.040 | to set up their best strangle holds.

02:49:28.840 | I deeply admire what they've done.

02:49:31.320 | Those two young men have a huge future ahead of them.

02:49:34.520 | - And so here, one of the brothers faces

02:49:37.720 | in the absolute, Nicholas Meragali.

02:49:40.480 | - Now bear in mind, Tai has just fought

02:49:43.120 | two very tough matches against guys bigger

02:49:46.580 | and stronger than himself.

02:49:48.020 | So he's coming into a third match

02:49:49.300 | against a third guy who's also bigger than he is.

02:49:52.580 | So hats off to Tai fighting open weight

02:49:55.700 | against three monsters in a row.

02:49:57.640 | Now Tai and Cade, one of their best attributes

02:50:02.860 | is they're two of the best scramblers

02:50:04.600 | in the sport of Jiu Jitsu.

02:50:06.140 | So whenever you go to shoot on the legs with them,

02:50:09.980 | there's a danger of running straight into

02:50:11.860 | a da strangle hold.

02:50:12.860 | They're very competent at counterattacking

02:50:14.860 | single legs with da strangles.

02:50:16.500 | It's also very hard to control them after a takedown.

02:50:21.040 | They do a very good job of springing back up to the feet.

02:50:24.340 | So I told Nicholas to favor upper body Judo based takedowns

02:50:28.500 | rather than wrestling takedowns.

02:50:29.840 | And you see here a fine example of Nicholas's

02:50:32.460 | gathering skill in Uchimata,

02:50:33.940 | one of the great throws of Judo.

02:50:36.540 | - Set up with a, there's a bit of a foot sweep.

02:50:42.120 | (chuckles)

02:50:44.300 | Like a...

02:50:45.140 | - Good.

02:50:45.960 | The nice thing is he starts off with what it looks like.

02:50:50.000 | It's actually a two directional Uchimata.

02:50:51.840 | He threatens Uchigari to the back.

02:50:54.900 | That's a throw that throws your opponent to the back.

02:50:57.080 | His opponent pushes into him,

02:50:58.440 | then he changes direction with a support foot

02:51:00.760 | and takes him over with Uchimata.

02:51:03.040 | As we said earlier, the great advantage of Judo

02:51:06.140 | over wrestling is that because there's upper body connection

02:51:09.260 | during the throw and after the throw,

02:51:11.660 | it's much harder for an opponent to scramble away from you.

02:51:14.280 | And even Tai Ryutaro is one of the best scramblers

02:51:16.640 | in the sport, has to stop scrambling here

02:51:20.760 | and just go back to guard position

02:51:22.960 | and enable Nicholas to hold top position.

02:51:25.920 | - I mean, some of it is also the surprise.

02:51:28.300 | There is something less understandable about Judo techniques

02:51:31.320 | because there's less data, it feels like.

02:51:35.680 | - The Ryutaro's also have a good Uchimata.

02:51:37.480 | I think they're very familiar with it.

02:51:39.960 | How often do you think are they

02:51:41.460 | on the receiving end of an Uchimata?

02:51:43.500 | - That's a good point, yeah.

02:51:44.340 | - So I just feel like they have more data

02:51:46.380 | in terms of defending.

02:51:47.600 | I mean, of course, there is fundamentals to the Uchimata

02:51:50.980 | that make it difficult to scramble around, but.

02:51:53.740 | - This is a good example of someone

02:51:56.380 | who literally didn't have a single takedown six months ago.

02:51:59.380 | Now he's throwing one of the toughest guys in the sport

02:52:02.020 | with one of the more difficult throws of Judo.

02:52:04.100 | Now you're a Judo man.

02:52:05.940 | You'll back me up on this.

02:52:07.260 | Uchimata's not an easy throw to learn.

02:52:09.180 | It takes some time.

02:52:10.120 | You're hopping on one foot with both of your body weight.

02:52:12.600 | - It's very counterintuitive.

02:52:14.240 | - Yeah, it's one of the more difficult throws.

02:52:17.680 | - Let go of your understanding of takedowns,

02:52:21.400 | of maybe wrestling style takedowns,

02:52:23.200 | or more intuitive kind of takedowns to understand it.

02:52:26.880 | There's many throws like this.

02:52:28.200 | Uchigari is like this, Sotogari is like this,

02:52:31.560 | Uchimata is like this, it's weird.

02:52:33.840 | What, I'm on one foot, I'm hopping around?

02:52:36.280 | This makes no sense.

02:52:37.800 | But it works.

02:52:38.720 | Foot sweeps are also weird in that way.

02:52:40.660 | They're a little bit more intuitive,

02:52:41.720 | but to get very good at foot sweeps,

02:52:44.860 | you have to understand timing, weight distribution.

02:52:48.100 | It's a dynamic thing that's weird.

02:52:51.880 | - I always laugh when I talk to Nicholas.

02:52:54.440 | I say, you know, I try to teach him a single leg,

02:52:58.140 | which is traditionally most,

02:53:00.320 | you know, like a high single leg

02:53:01.400 | is one of the easier takedowns to perform

02:53:03.320 | in terms of mechanical difficulty.

02:53:05.480 | And Nicholas always struggles with it.

02:53:08.400 | And then I teach him one of the more difficult takedowns,

02:53:10.920 | Uchimata, and he does it flawlessly.

02:53:14.280 | - You never know, certain things get attached.

02:53:16.360 | I mean, you see this in judo.

02:53:17.480 | It's kind of interesting to see

02:53:19.080 | there's classes of takedowns,

02:53:22.520 | and certain people just gravitate

02:53:25.720 | in their philosophical, intuitive understanding

02:53:28.400 | of body mechanics or something like this.

02:53:30.520 | It's like Seinagi versus Uchimata.

02:53:32.440 | You very clearly see there's some people that understand,

02:53:36.680 | they like to have both their feet planted on the ground,

02:53:40.160 | and there's some people that are okay

02:53:42.840 | with this one foot on the ground

02:53:45.240 | and the other one is doing something else.

02:53:47.360 | And I think that, I don't know what that,

02:53:49.600 | what is that, I don't know.

02:53:50.600 | It's what makes you fall in love

02:53:51.680 | with one field versus another.

02:53:53.220 | So what, can you speak to that,

02:53:56.240 | that you've released a new instructional

02:53:59.080 | on takedowns and standing skills for jiu-jitsu,

02:54:02.280 | just at a high level,

02:54:04.600 | using Nicholas as an example,

02:54:08.520 | what are some key ideas about takedowns?

02:54:12.720 | - Okay, first, whenever people talk

02:54:15.400 | about standing position in jiu-jitsu,

02:54:17.800 | they always say, oh, I need to learn some takedowns.

02:54:20.800 | But it's never a question of just learning the takedowns.

02:54:24.880 | It's learning the prerequisites to the takedowns.

02:54:28.080 | The takedowns are more or less like an afterthought.

02:54:31.640 | You've got to begin with stance, motion,

02:54:36.000 | the ability to engage in grip and contact,

02:54:38.840 | get your opponent out of balance,

02:54:40.400 | and then comes the takedowns.

02:54:43.320 | The takedowns in jiu-jitsu are mostly divided

02:54:45.660 | into lower body takedowns, tackles to the legs,

02:54:47.840 | single legs, double legs,

02:54:50.080 | to a lesser degree, high crotch in jiu-jitsu.

02:54:52.280 | And then upper body takedowns,

02:54:55.680 | which are mostly judo derived.

02:54:58.720 | Nicholas had to start more or less at the ground.

02:55:03.360 | I didn't even know how to come out

02:55:04.920 | and make grips or hold a stance.

02:55:06.600 | So he had to learn every element of it.

02:55:09.680 | And the fact he was able to do so in six months

02:55:12.400 | was just incredible.

02:55:14.240 | - Can you comment on the upward posture

02:55:19.240 | that seems to work for jiu-jitsu?

02:55:21.200 | - The matches in jiu-jitsu are much longer

02:55:23.160 | than the matches in wrestling.

02:55:25.080 | In addition, there are many kinds of submission threat,

02:55:27.440 | which are not there in wrestling.

02:55:29.280 | So the stance has to be significantly changed.

02:55:31.960 | In wrestling, they favor generally a very low crouch,

02:55:35.000 | because the vast majority of attacks

02:55:37.120 | are tackles to the legs.

02:55:38.780 | So anyone who stands upright in wrestling

02:55:41.120 | tends to get heavily punished

02:55:42.520 | by being taken down immediately with a leg tackle.

02:55:45.340 | In jiu-jitsu, the matches are so much longer,

02:55:49.760 | it would be difficult in a 40 minute match, for example,

02:55:52.160 | to maintain a bent over crouch, you'd be exhausted.

02:55:56.320 | There's also problems associated with submission holds.

02:55:58.920 | There are many forms of submission hold,

02:56:00.960 | guillotines, dasas, et cetera,

02:56:02.200 | where if your head comes down too low,

02:56:03.600 | you become a little vulnerable to this.

02:56:05.920 | And so the stances in jiu-jitsu competition

02:56:09.560 | tend to be much more upright, more like judo and greco.

02:56:12.760 | So right off the bat, you see the stance is different.

02:56:15.160 | The motion tends to be much slower and more evenly paced,

02:56:18.400 | because you've got to be able to do this

02:56:19.340 | for long periods of time.

02:56:21.040 | So the number of fakes per minute,

02:56:23.560 | the number of shots attempted per minute

02:56:25.960 | is usually much lower.

02:56:27.760 | So these are obvious differences.

02:56:32.320 | The biggest difference, however,

02:56:34.680 | has nothing to do with that, it has to do with tactics.

02:56:37.480 | In jiu-jitsu, the scores will be judged

02:56:42.480 | by what happens after the takedown.

02:56:45.840 | In the case of ADCC, you can take someone down

02:56:51.640 | in ways that would score in both wrestling and judo,

02:56:55.400 | and possibly even win the match in the case of judo,

02:56:58.620 | and it would score zero in ADCC

02:57:01.360 | because of the nature of the rules.

02:57:04.080 | The whole idea of ADCC scoring

02:57:06.720 | is to demonstrate control after the takedown.

02:57:10.360 | It's what happens in the critical three seconds

02:57:12.320 | after the takedown that creates the score.

02:57:15.520 | In judo and in wrestling,

02:57:20.040 | the emphasis is placed on the takedown itself.

02:57:23.160 | In jiu-jitsu, the emphasis is placed

02:57:25.480 | on the aftermath of the takedown.

02:57:27.520 | That's where the score is allocated.

02:57:29.320 | And that can be a period of up to three seconds.

02:57:33.040 | Now, three seconds doesn't sound like much,

02:57:34.680 | but in a scramble after a takedown,

02:57:36.560 | three seconds is a fucking eternity.

02:57:38.780 | It goes on forever.

02:57:40.120 | And so you will see many examples of takedowns

02:57:43.920 | that, as I said, would score very well

02:57:47.360 | in judo and wrestling,

02:57:49.360 | but don't score at all on ADCC.

02:57:52.160 | And so the whole skill becomes

02:57:54.520 | packaging the standing position

02:57:56.060 | in terms of the takedowns themselves,

02:57:59.280 | but in particular, preparing the athletes

02:58:01.600 | for that critical three seconds after the takedown.

02:58:04.880 | That's why many people who are very fine wrestlers

02:58:08.200 | struggle in ADCC.

02:58:09.700 | They take people down by wrestling metric all the time,

02:58:13.680 | but don't score under ADCC rules.

02:58:16.720 | - What makes GSB so good at takedowns?

02:58:19.200 | I've gotten a chance to even recently

02:58:20.960 | watch him do takedowns.

02:58:22.320 | Is it within this framework that you're teaching,

02:58:26.840 | what stands out to you about him

02:58:28.480 | that you draw lessons from?

02:58:29.640 | - Yeah, that's another example

02:58:31.760 | of someone who's performing takedowns

02:58:34.680 | in a rule set radically different from wrestling.

02:58:37.600 | Just as the ADCC rule set is so different

02:58:41.680 | from conventional wrestling rule sets

02:58:44.580 | that the whole manner in which you approach takedowns

02:58:48.120 | and even your understanding of takedowns

02:58:50.200 | has to be quite strongly modified.

02:58:54.320 | So to an MMA, it's even more extreme.

02:58:56.500 | People always think, "Oh, this guy's a good wrestler.

02:58:59.520 | He should be able to get takedowns in MMA easily."

02:59:02.840 | What you find is that the wrestling skills in MMA

02:59:05.920 | enable you to finish takedowns.

02:59:08.320 | If you get in on your opponent

02:59:10.200 | and get to the legs or the waist or what have you,

02:59:13.080 | your wrestling skill will enable you

02:59:14.840 | to finish the takedown.

02:59:16.860 | But getting to the takedown is massively different

02:59:21.440 | in the context of MMA than it is in wrestling.

02:59:23.840 | The entire stance is different.

02:59:25.680 | The entire set of distancing is different.

02:59:29.960 | There's the idea of positioning within a cage,

02:59:32.560 | like how close you are to the perimeter of the cage

02:59:36.600 | changes radically how you approach the takedown.

02:59:39.000 | The setups are literally night and day different.

02:59:43.400 | The setups are almost entirely composed of striking setups

02:59:47.700 | rather than grappling setups.

02:59:49.500 | And so the act of getting to the takedown

02:59:53.860 | is like a completely different sport.

02:59:57.060 | Now, George studied wrestling

02:59:59.740 | and used to go to wrestling practice twice a week.

03:00:03.220 | In Canada, they do freestyle wrestling.

03:00:05.180 | They don't use the American college style of wrestling.

03:00:07.780 | Now, George's main emphasis in wrestling training

03:00:10.420 | was takedowns.

03:00:12.020 | Obviously, the whole ground element of freestyle wrestling

03:00:16.560 | was of no interest to him,

03:00:17.680 | like learning how to put people's back on the ground

03:00:20.380 | and turn them with leg laces and gut wrenches

03:00:23.800 | was of no value in MMA.

03:00:25.760 | So he devoted almost all of his study

03:00:27.760 | to just the act of taking someone down.

03:00:30.040 | So in pure wrestling, George is not bad.

03:00:34.680 | I think he'd be a very competitive match

03:00:39.000 | even for a highly ranked American freestyle wrestler.

03:00:43.000 | Obviously, he would lose easily on the ground

03:00:45.240 | 'cause he's not used to the part here.

03:00:46.640 | He'd probably be leg laced or gut wrenched quite easily

03:00:49.760 | by a skilled opponent.

03:00:51.480 | But in just a pure takedown battle,

03:00:53.000 | he'd be a competitive training partner

03:00:55.200 | for even a good wrestler.

03:00:57.640 | But in actual MMA competition,

03:01:00.080 | he could take down even the most highly credentialed

03:01:02.800 | wrestlers and in some cases,

03:01:05.080 | make it look almost effortless.

03:01:08.400 | And that came from his unification

03:01:11.840 | of striking skill with wrestling.

03:01:13.560 | So he used wrestling skills to finish the takedown

03:01:16.080 | and his karate and kickboxing pedigree

03:01:20.280 | to enter into the takedown.

03:01:22.640 | Now, when he initiated the study of this,

03:01:25.400 | this was at a time when MMA was pretty much in its infancy.

03:01:29.200 | And he was one of the most impressive people

03:01:34.200 | I've ever seen in this regard.

03:01:37.520 | He was a true innovator.

03:01:39.120 | He innovated this specialized area of striking to a takedown

03:01:44.120 | to a greater degree than anyone else I'm aware of.

03:01:48.040 | - Well, let me ask you about this innovation

03:01:49.680 | because you're one of the most innovative people

03:01:51.840 | in martial arts.

03:01:54.880 | There's several major categories of innovation

03:01:57.600 | that you have led.

03:01:59.600 | Obviously, leg locks, body lock, now wrestling.

03:02:06.520 | What's your process of innovation?

03:02:11.520 | So seeing the problems in a particular system,

03:02:17.840 | the gaps, how do you identify them?

03:02:23.440 | And how do you figure out systems

03:02:24.920 | of how to fill those gaps?

03:02:27.680 | - First thing I look for is what are the current weaknesses

03:02:33.440 | in a given combat sport?

03:02:36.200 | So in the case of jiu-jitsu,

03:02:38.880 | it was very obvious that historically,

03:02:41.320 | jiu-jitsu had always been weak in leg locking.

03:02:43.560 | Jiu-jitsu had always been weak

03:02:44.920 | in standing position overall.

03:02:48.680 | And these were things that needed

03:02:52.760 | to be sorted out immediately.

03:02:56.040 | In its infancy, mixed martial arts was divided

03:02:58.640 | between grapplers and strikers.

03:03:01.480 | And most of the emphasis in early mixed martial arts

03:03:06.480 | was on the idea of specialists in a given domain

03:03:12.200 | forcing the fight into their domain.

03:03:14.760 | And that my early work with Georges St-Pierre

03:03:20.680 | convinced me that the right approach

03:03:23.400 | wasn't increased specialization

03:03:25.960 | and learning to force your athlete

03:03:29.840 | into that area of specialization

03:03:31.720 | at the expense of the opponent,

03:03:33.520 | but rather the real battles of the future

03:03:36.280 | would be won and lost not with techniques per se,

03:03:41.280 | specialized techniques,

03:03:43.080 | but rather the integration of techniques

03:03:45.880 | and the overlap between the various grappling

03:03:49.480 | and striking skills.

03:03:51.200 | So that someone who was an inferior grappler

03:03:56.200 | would have just enough grappling skills

03:03:58.240 | to be able to hold a grappler off

03:03:59.680 | and then defeat them with striking.

03:04:03.880 | And a striker who was,

03:04:05.800 | if you went to fight someone

03:04:08.680 | who's superior to you in striking,

03:04:10.600 | you would have just enough striking skill

03:04:12.120 | to be able to hold them at bay

03:04:13.840 | and then enter into grappling.

03:04:15.720 | This went further and further until it got clear

03:04:18.480 | that there were whole areas of the sport

03:04:21.040 | that you needed to change your entire mindset about them.

03:04:26.000 | So that people went into early MMA

03:04:29.120 | thinking in terms of grappler and striker.

03:04:31.200 | What I started to think is in terms of,

03:04:35.440 | okay, there are four fundamental skill areas

03:04:39.240 | of mixed martial arts.

03:04:41.080 | There is shoot boxing,

03:04:42.600 | which is the integration of takedowns and striking.

03:04:47.600 | There is clinch boxing,

03:04:50.880 | which is the integration of upper body clinch skills

03:04:54.000 | combined with striking.

03:04:55.360 | There is fence boxing,

03:04:56.800 | which the two athletes are locked up with each other

03:04:59.800 | on the fence and they have to integrate

03:05:03.320 | takedown defense and striking skills.

03:05:06.080 | And there is grapple boxing,

03:05:07.400 | which is the merging of ground grappling with striking.

03:05:10.920 | And when you broke MMA down into those four categories,

03:05:14.800 | you saw that each one of those four domains

03:05:18.400 | transcends the specialized martial arts

03:05:23.840 | that form their components.

03:05:26.440 | So for example, in clinch boxing,

03:05:29.380 | you would incorporate things from judo,

03:05:31.120 | Greco-Roman, freestyle, jiu-jitsu submissions,

03:05:34.400 | Muay Thai, clinching techniques.

03:05:36.600 | But even if you took all five of those,

03:05:41.640 | the rule set that you're operating in

03:05:46.020 | required such extensive modification

03:05:48.660 | that the final product of clinch boxing

03:05:50.960 | transcended all five of its component martial arts

03:05:55.280 | and became its own autonomous skill,

03:05:57.240 | needed to be worked autonomously.

03:05:59.520 | And when we broke George's training

03:06:04.280 | down into those four areas,

03:06:06.060 | that's when real progress started to be made.

03:06:07.840 | That's when you started to see the integration

03:06:11.920 | of those four phases and the striking and grappling

03:06:16.120 | within each of them was where victory was being won

03:06:20.340 | and lost.

03:06:21.180 | - So once you reframe how you see a particular combat sport,

03:06:26.180 | then you could start doing these detailed development

03:06:30.440 | of ideas that actually, like, they fit.

03:06:34.520 | - There's a sense in which it had to start

03:06:36.760 | with a paradigm shift,

03:06:38.160 | and then a research program began after that.

03:06:40.760 | You don't start with research,

03:06:42.160 | you start with a paradigm shift and then went to research.

03:06:45.040 | - Well, let me ask you,

03:06:46.000 | I got a chance to hang out with you and Hanzo Gracie

03:06:49.680 | at ADCC.

03:06:51.240 | He keeps messaging me saying he's gonna call me

03:06:53.680 | and not calling me.

03:06:55.120 | I think aside from being hilarious, charismatic,

03:06:58.200 | and handsome, he is also,

03:07:03.200 | and wise for his young age.

03:07:06.620 | He's also one of the greatest coaches

03:07:08.540 | and athletes of all time in martial arts.

03:07:11.160 | So let me ask, what have you learned about life

03:07:14.200 | from Hanzo Gracie?

03:07:16.660 | - The degree of difficulty that Hanzo must have encountered,

03:07:21.420 | he never talked to us about it,

03:07:23.560 | but I figured this out as the years went by.

03:07:27.980 | The degree of difficulty that he must have experienced

03:07:31.020 | when he first came to Manhattan and started teaching,

03:07:34.220 | it must have just been incredible.

03:07:35.980 | You gotta remember, Hanzo came from Brazil,

03:07:38.960 | training with the best people in the world at that time,

03:07:42.900 | you know, Hickson, all the machados.

03:07:47.900 | All of them were located around Gracie Baja

03:07:52.580 | and that Rio de Janeiro set.

03:07:57.580 | They all knew each other and they all trained together.

03:08:02.260 | They had internal problems, of course,

03:08:04.360 | but they all knew each other well

03:08:07.340 | and knew each other's games.

03:08:08.820 | So all of them had beautiful and highly developed jiu-jitsu.

03:08:13.060 | So all Hanzo knew from childhood on

03:08:16.160 | was perfect, beautiful jiu-jitsu

03:08:18.620 | and communicating with other people

03:08:20.740 | who also knew perfect, beautiful jiu-jitsu.

03:08:23.700 | Then he comes to New York where he has to teach

03:08:29.460 | in a language that he, at that stage, barely spoke

03:08:34.500 | to a bunch of fucking morons

03:08:37.220 | who didn't even, on my first day in jiu-jitsu,

03:08:40.500 | they had to explain to me the difference

03:08:41.740 | between the mount and the guard

03:08:43.460 | 'cause as far as I was concerned,

03:08:44.740 | yeah, you're on top, it's the same thing.

03:08:47.260 | And they're like, no, no, no,

03:08:48.980 | mounted is different from guard.

03:08:50.340 | And I'm like, no, it's not.

03:08:51.180 | Like, you're on top of the guy.

03:08:52.880 | You just hit him.

03:08:53.720 | - So he has to argue with you about this.

03:08:55.580 | - Imagine going from training with Hicks and Gracie

03:08:59.580 | to having to tell some moron

03:09:02.220 | that guard is different from mount.

03:09:04.440 | And we were so primitive back then.

03:09:08.320 | He went from the best training culture in the world

03:09:12.400 | to literally the worst.

03:09:13.920 | Just a bunch of guys in their mid-20s

03:09:17.160 | who knew nothing about the ground, just--

03:09:20.980 | - Well, luckily he's known for his patience.

03:09:23.480 | (laughing)

03:09:25.740 | - Out of that, he molded one of the greatest gyms ever

03:09:30.200 | in New York.

03:09:31.040 | - Yes, he did a fantastic job.

03:09:34.680 | And most of it was based around the idea

03:09:36.980 | that he gave us complete freedom.

03:09:39.080 | We came in, we trained all day,

03:09:40.960 | and I started teaching beginners classes.

03:09:44.300 | And then some of his senior students,

03:09:48.640 | Hikaru, Hodrigo, Gracie, and Matt, Sarah,

03:09:51.600 | opened their own schools around the tri-state area.

03:09:54.840 | So they left.

03:09:56.520 | There was a vacuum of teachers

03:09:57.860 | and he asked me to start teaching.

03:09:59.800 | I taught for many, many years there.

03:10:04.520 | And he always gave us complete freedom.

03:10:06.440 | His only thing was to say, "Okay, do whatever you want.

03:10:09.160 | "Just make sure it's effective.

03:10:11.460 | "Prove to me it's effective."

03:10:12.920 | And that's the best research program you can ever have.

03:10:16.600 | Show me proof.

03:10:17.720 | So many times, especially in those days in jujitsu,

03:10:24.440 | there were so many things that were just off limits.

03:10:26.920 | You couldn't study Legos.

03:10:28.360 | You couldn't do this, you couldn't do that.

03:10:30.200 | This kind of game was for cowards.

03:10:32.400 | This is the only kind of game we accept.

03:10:34.280 | And Hinsa was never like that.

03:10:35.760 | He was just like, "Okay, just do what you want.

03:10:38.360 | "Prove to me it works."

03:10:40.040 | And if you give people that simple structure,

03:10:43.200 | you give them some time, some ingenuity,

03:10:45.880 | a lot of things can happen.

03:10:47.480 | - I gotta ask you, and by the way,

03:10:49.100 | he'll come on this podcast,

03:10:50.920 | and I do feel like it's a little bit like

03:10:52.920 | riding a dragon or a bull of some kind.

03:10:54.920 | It'll be a fun journey.

03:10:56.960 | I can't, at least from my perspective,

03:10:59.680 | having interacted with him, having met him,

03:11:02.280 | it's hard not to smile from his stories.

03:11:05.280 | - He's easily one of the most charismatic people in jujitsu.

03:11:07.480 | - It's kind of fun to watch that humans can be like this too.

03:11:12.040 | It's just the love that radiates from him is incredible.

03:11:15.640 | I gotta ask you, this is from Reddit.

03:11:17.520 | There's a few legends that come from that gym,

03:11:21.080 | but people on Reddit kept asking about some guy named Boris.

03:11:25.080 | Apparently you coached him at Hensos,

03:11:26.840 | and he was a legend, and he was terrifyingly good.

03:11:31.320 | What made him a legend?

03:11:32.600 | Who is this Boris character?

03:11:34.280 | - Boris is one of my early students.

03:11:36.000 | I think he was either my first or second black belt.

03:11:38.840 | Boris came from Long Island.

03:11:40.160 | He was a wrestler.

03:11:41.640 | He was of Russian Jewish descent,

03:11:45.680 | and highly intelligent.

03:11:47.440 | Now he was short of stature,

03:11:50.040 | but very powerfully built and compact.

03:11:56.080 | Very nice, polite young man,

03:11:59.800 | but also slightly eccentric,

03:12:02.960 | which I always liked about him.

03:12:05.680 | He would always come dressed with glasses on,

03:12:10.600 | and he would leave the gym dressed like,

03:12:15.520 | to use the American phrase, a complete nerd,

03:12:18.840 | with his pocket protector.

03:12:21.280 | And now he was heavily muscled,

03:12:23.800 | but he would dress in such a way that it didn't appear so

03:12:26.120 | when he left.

03:12:27.320 | And we always used to laugh.

03:12:28.640 | Like, you imagine some guy tried to mug Boris.

03:12:31.520 | They would see him with his nerdy glasses on

03:12:33.480 | and his pocket protector,

03:12:34.600 | and they would literally run into

03:12:37.040 | like one of the most formidable human beings

03:12:39.160 | in the entire New York area.

03:12:40.880 | Boris started training jujitsu, I believe, in Long Island.

03:12:44.120 | And then when he got a tech job in Manhattan,

03:12:48.400 | started training with us in a morning class.

03:12:51.060 | Now, these were relatively early days in Manhattan

03:12:54.160 | and in my teaching career.

03:12:56.040 | And he and a group of others, a very small group,

03:13:00.000 | used to train early in the morning,

03:13:01.560 | around 6 a.m. before work.

03:13:04.160 | And Boris was a legend in those days.

03:13:08.060 | Now, a very young George St. Pierre

03:13:10.280 | came to train with us at that time,

03:13:15.760 | and he would come in at 6 a.m. to do his morning class.

03:13:18.960 | And he was one of the main training partners for Boris.

03:13:23.960 | And Boris being a wrestler,

03:13:26.700 | he used to generally prefer top position.

03:13:28.860 | And I would always encourage George

03:13:30.700 | to play bottom position.

03:13:32.220 | I'd say, "You gotta get good in bottom position.

03:13:33.720 | "You never know.

03:13:34.560 | "I know you're good at takedowns,

03:13:35.380 | "but one day someone's gonna put you down,

03:13:37.120 | "so you gotta work bottom position."

03:13:38.920 | And Boris had very strong guard passing.

03:13:41.820 | I remember one of George's happiest days

03:13:44.020 | is finally after like two years,

03:13:46.060 | one day he swept Boris, got on top and finished him.

03:13:50.280 | And I remember that was one of his biggest thrills

03:13:55.280 | in all of his training career.

03:13:57.640 | - That was the last time that ever happened for him.

03:14:00.360 | (Luke laughs)

03:14:01.380 | - No, Boris was, he was a very formidable man for that time.

03:14:04.820 | The funny thing about Boris is,

03:14:06.420 | every time we would have a conversation,

03:14:10.520 | he would say, "I'm only gonna do this sport

03:14:12.920 | "until I'm 40 years old,

03:14:14.720 | "and then I'm gonna stop."

03:14:16.120 | And I was like, "Why?

03:14:18.760 | "Why not be like a lifelong martial artist?

03:14:20.700 | "You got so good.

03:14:22.040 | "You're good at jiu-jitsu.

03:14:22.960 | "You've got great skills.

03:14:23.800 | "You've worked hard.

03:14:25.160 | "Why not just keep going?"

03:14:26.860 | He's like, "It's ridiculous for a man to train after 40.

03:14:29.580 | "There's no need."

03:14:31.060 | He never gave any reason for this.

03:14:32.620 | It was just ridiculous.

03:14:34.660 | So one day, now this is a guy who came in literally every day,

03:14:39.460 | 6 a.m. every day.

03:14:42.340 | One day, he comes in, he comes up to me at the end of training

03:14:45.300 | and goes, "Hey, John, I just turned 40,

03:14:47.060 | "so I won't be seeing you again."

03:14:48.760 | And I thought, he's joking.

03:14:52.200 | So I'm like, "I'll see you tomorrow, Boris."

03:14:53.940 | He's like, "No, you won't," and walks off.

03:14:56.280 | - How gangster is that?

03:14:57.460 | - And then he never came back.

03:14:58.860 | I've never seen Boris since.

03:15:00.260 | He came in, was one of the best grapplers I ever saw,

03:15:04.260 | and that's it, buddy, I'm out.

03:15:08.620 | And to this day--

03:15:09.980 | - No one to walk away.

03:15:11.340 | - Yeah.

03:15:12.780 | I also got to hang out, got to meet,

03:15:14.840 | hang out with Ali Abdelaziz.

03:15:16.960 | He's a Hanzo Gracie black belt,

03:15:18.520 | fourth degree judo black belt,

03:15:20.480 | and friend and manager of Khabib Nurmagomedov,

03:15:23.400 | who's coming down to Austin soon,

03:15:28.080 | will do a podcast.

03:15:29.240 | Hopefully, he'll get on the mat

03:15:30.480 | and have a bit of brainstorm.

03:15:33.700 | Also, he's a manager and friend

03:15:36.440 | of many other amazing fighters.

03:15:40.600 | I really love the guy.

03:15:42.640 | The loyalty, the fact that he looks for loyalty

03:15:47.600 | and has that close inner circle,

03:15:49.880 | and integrity and character in people,

03:15:52.120 | I really like them.

03:15:52.960 | I connect to them really quickly.

03:15:54.520 | But any fun stories about Ali?

03:15:57.400 | Did you train together?

03:15:58.400 | - Yes, he trained for many years

03:15:59.840 | in the basement of my classes.

03:16:06.760 | His story is one of the most unlikely stories.

03:16:10.960 | Like if someone wrote a movie plot

03:16:12.860 | about his life, it'd be like,

03:16:14.280 | it's absurd, it'd be thrown out the door in a second,

03:16:16.840 | and yet it all happened.

03:16:18.040 | You're absolutely correct.

03:16:22.320 | From the unlikeliest possible starts,

03:16:26.800 | created a situation where he's,

03:16:28.720 | I think it's incontestable now to say

03:16:30.400 | he's the most successful manager

03:16:32.360 | in mixed martial arts history.

03:16:33.720 | He has more champions under his care

03:16:36.480 | than anyone else I'm aware of.

03:16:39.680 | - And respected, and influential,

03:16:42.360 | so on all dimensions, yes.

03:16:44.280 | - Now, many people aren't aware of the fact

03:16:46.560 | that he was actually a very good Judo player.

03:16:48.080 | He had--

03:16:49.360 | - Jidoka first, yeah.

03:16:50.200 | - Yes, yeah, he had very good Nogi Judo.

03:16:52.720 | He had an excellent Harai Koshi,

03:16:57.160 | very good Tani Itoshi.

03:16:58.600 | And he threw many people

03:17:01.880 | who were highly credentialed wrestlers

03:17:04.800 | back in the basement, back in the glory days of MMA training.

03:17:08.120 | He was a good example of a guy

03:17:11.440 | who had very, very good Judo hips,

03:17:14.360 | and often used it to counter wrestling,

03:17:18.080 | and was a fine demonstrator of the idea that

03:17:22.640 | when Judo is adapted to Nogi gripping,

03:17:27.680 | it can provide a very effective foil

03:17:29.880 | to many of the standard forms of wrestling attack.

03:17:32.720 | And he would often use Uchimada to counter leg tackles,

03:17:35.640 | and do so in very, very spectacular fashion.

03:17:38.680 | - Well, what do you think about Khabib?

03:17:41.120 | Is there something from just watching him,

03:17:45.280 | or is there something you can imagine

03:17:47.480 | if he comes down to the gym

03:17:49.120 | that you might learn from the way he moves,

03:17:51.680 | the way he approaches wrestling?

03:17:53.320 | - Oh, absolutely.

03:17:54.160 | He's one of the greatest combat athletes of all time.

03:17:56.080 | If you can't learn from someone like that,

03:17:57.680 | there's something wrong with you.

03:17:58.800 | - So he emphasizes control.

03:18:01.200 | - Yes, he does.

03:18:02.040 | And he's absolutely a master of exerting control.

03:18:04.840 | The amount of grappling control he was able to put over

03:18:11.640 | some of the most difficult people in the world to control

03:18:14.520 | was truly astounding.

03:18:16.000 | He beat people from every style.

03:18:18.120 | He beat wrestlers, he beat Jujutsu players,

03:18:19.960 | he beat kickboxers,

03:18:21.420 | and he controlled them all in more or less the same way.

03:18:24.220 | He has a very underrated bottom game.

03:18:27.800 | People think, "Oh, he's just about stifling top control."

03:18:30.800 | But people forget he was taken down on several occasions

03:18:33.920 | and ended up in bottom position.

03:18:35.480 | And he showed excellent guard work from bottom.

03:18:38.600 | He was able to get into submission holds readily

03:18:41.360 | on opponents from bottom position.

03:18:42.800 | He's got an excellent bottom game.

03:18:44.460 | People say, "Oh, he's just a positional guy."

03:18:48.840 | No, he's not.

03:18:49.680 | He's got great submissions.

03:18:50.800 | The application of his triangle from both top and bottom

03:18:53.680 | was top class.

03:18:54.880 | He had a sharp arm lock from bottom position.

03:18:58.400 | Excellent Kimura.

03:18:59.240 | If you look at his Kimura finishes in MMA,

03:19:02.800 | they were technically very, very well set.

03:19:06.000 | Excellent breaking mechanics.

03:19:07.560 | He's a very, very fine grappler

03:19:11.800 | in both submission grappling and MMA grappling.

03:19:15.040 | I think we'd probably learn a ton

03:19:16.600 | from moving around with him.

03:19:18.680 | - Is it possible to learn something about him

03:19:23.440 | or about Haja Gracie or about Gordon

03:19:26.240 | by watching them or rolling around them for a little bit?

03:19:31.240 | So maybe Haja and Khabib are good examples

03:19:35.560 | because they're able to do seemingly very basic things

03:19:41.000 | on everybody and dominate them with that.

03:19:44.840 | I think Gordon is as well,

03:19:46.960 | but Gordon seems to have more preference

03:19:49.280 | and range of what he's able to do.

03:19:51.240 | It's just, it's almost miraculous how much Haja can do

03:19:55.320 | by just the same exact thing on everybody.

03:20:00.320 | Is that, is it possible to understand

03:20:04.700 | why Haja or Khabib are so good at very basic positions?

03:20:08.560 | Or do you have to feel it or do you have to,

03:20:11.440 | or is it just something that's developed

03:20:13.400 | over years and years and years?

03:20:15.840 | - I think for most people,

03:20:17.360 | for the vast majority of people,

03:20:19.440 | it would have to be explained to them.

03:20:21.880 | For a smaller group of people,

03:20:24.280 | if they felt it, they could try to replicate it.

03:20:27.360 | And there are a few people who could look at it

03:20:29.440 | and have enough knowledge and say,

03:20:31.120 | "Okay, I can see what he's doing."

03:20:33.240 | Like for example, Haja could probably look at video footage

03:20:37.120 | of Khabib grappling and say,

03:20:38.400 | "Okay, I understand what he's doing."

03:20:40.240 | But the average person would probably go over their heads.

03:20:44.920 | - You sometimes think of like these great athletes,

03:20:48.100 | like maybe they're too narrow.

03:20:51.200 | Like you might imagine they're kinda so focused

03:20:54.520 | on a particular thing,

03:20:56.000 | they don't develop in interesting ways.

03:20:58.120 | He's just a sweetheart.

03:20:59.240 | - Yeah, he's a wonderful person to be around.

03:21:01.600 | (laughing)

03:21:04.040 | - Yeah, he's also visiting Austin.

03:21:06.640 | But just, I was so, I mean, first of all,

03:21:08.360 | I'm honored just drinking a little bit too much

03:21:12.160 | in Vegas with Haja Gracie and just,

03:21:14.200 | and talking about love and relationships and life

03:21:20.120 | and death and all those philosophical topics

03:21:23.040 | as one does in Vegas.

03:21:24.920 | I'm a little bit too much to drink.

03:21:26.640 | Anyway, after ADCC, it was beautiful.

03:21:30.040 | And on top of that, hanging out with Rogan many days

03:21:34.240 | for UFC and then ADCC.

03:21:36.240 | You know, one thing,

03:21:37.120 | I don't know if you've gotten a chance to hang out

03:21:38.720 | with Joe when he plays pool.

03:21:40.720 | So I spent a lot of time with him when he was playing pool,

03:21:45.800 | like recently on that trip to Vegas.

03:21:47.880 | And there's something zen-like about,

03:21:51.920 | first of all, just watching him.

03:21:53.600 | But I've never seen the focus the guys got on the game

03:21:58.600 | for hours, just deep focus, unshakable focus.

03:22:04.000 | That was so interesting to watch,

03:22:07.320 | that this human being, he's a celebrity,

03:22:09.880 | he does all kinds of stuff,

03:22:11.800 | that he's able to allocate as close to 100% of his mind

03:22:17.800 | as I can imagine to a particular task

03:22:20.840 | and nothing can distract him.

03:22:22.760 | That was really inspiring,

03:22:23.800 | that you could still do that on any task.

03:22:27.560 | - Well, pool is a game of physics.

03:22:29.520 | That should be your domain.

03:22:31.120 | - Oh, it is, but that wasn't just physics.

03:22:33.440 | Yeah, I would think you understand the game,

03:22:36.440 | you understand the physics of it.

03:22:38.920 | You also understand the fun of it

03:22:40.720 | 'cause there's friends and laughter and so on.

03:22:42.960 | I would be distracted by that a little bit.

03:22:46.160 | I wouldn't be as focused.

03:22:48.160 | He literally, the closer you get to the table,

03:22:52.400 | the more everything zooms in.

03:22:54.600 | The jokes, there's funny things,

03:22:56.360 | you can't get his attention on anything.

03:22:58.280 | It's that focus.

03:22:59.360 | I don't know, that really stayed with me.

03:23:02.920 | That those memes, like,

03:23:07.420 | I wanna find somebody that looks at me

03:23:10.360 | the way X looks at Y.

03:23:12.680 | I wanna find somebody that looks at me

03:23:14.240 | the way Joe looks at a pool cue or whatever.

03:23:16.600 | The focus there, I wanna find something in my life.

03:23:19.720 | Rather, I want to attain the level of focus he has

03:23:26.440 | for pool on a task that I care about.

03:23:29.800 | And that focus, like, fuck everything else.

03:23:33.000 | This is, now it's time to do work.

03:23:35.620 | I don't know, that was really inspiring.

03:23:38.520 | I haven't seen that kind of focus

03:23:42.200 | for prolonged periods of time on a task.

03:23:45.240 | You should see it sometime.

03:23:46.600 | I mean, part of it is just being competitive with himself.

03:23:51.420 | It's the hatred of imperfection,

03:23:53.080 | all of those kinds of elements,

03:23:54.400 | but embodied in a singular focus.

03:23:57.400 | - I had no idea he even played pool.

03:23:59.120 | It's interesting.

03:24:00.680 | - You should watch him.

03:24:01.800 | I think it could be one of his greatest obsessions.

03:24:05.760 | Like, there was deep,

03:24:09.000 | see, I thought pool is for, like, degenerates.

03:24:11.920 | Like gamblers and, like, hustlers, right?

03:24:14.640 | Like, the same way I see poker.

03:24:18.040 | But, like, I saw, like, a wolf slash, like,

03:24:23.040 | elite athlete in Joe.

03:24:25.360 | I said, I didn't know this.

03:24:26.280 | I don't know much about pool.

03:24:27.640 | I didn't know that you could have that level of focus

03:24:30.240 | while still drunk at your ass, but extremely focused.

03:24:33.800 | It was beautiful to see.

03:24:34.960 | I don't know, inspiring, inspiring for me

03:24:38.840 | as a person who highly values singular focus on a task.

03:24:43.840 | Let me ask you from a perspective of a hobbyist,

03:24:46.280 | what major practical changes can a hobbyist

03:24:51.280 | who works regular nine-to-five job

03:24:53.240 | do to improve their jiu-jitsu?

03:24:54.920 | So, they're in a gym.

03:24:56.640 | There's a lot of excellent gyms

03:24:58.080 | throughout the United States.

03:24:59.080 | What can they do to improve their jiu-jitsu?

03:25:02.240 | About the way they think about jiu-jitsu,

03:25:04.760 | about the way they approach,

03:25:06.120 | their actual schedule, those kinds of things.

03:25:08.000 | - That's a great question.

03:25:09.320 | Okay, the less training time you've got,

03:25:14.480 | the more you wanna maximize its effect.

03:25:17.120 | So, a question becomes, okay,

03:25:19.640 | if I'm training, say, twice a week,

03:25:22.680 | and sometimes even once a week,

03:25:25.120 | what can I do to make sure that

03:25:27.160 | that two-hour period is used maximally?

03:25:30.780 | The less training time you've got,

03:25:36.240 | the more the onus is on you

03:25:38.120 | to have a plan before you walk in the door.

03:25:40.960 | If you go in just saying,

03:25:43.960 | I'm gonna roll around and see what happens,

03:25:46.800 | or I'll just follow what the instructor says,

03:25:49.560 | you'll get a certain amount out of each class,

03:25:52.960 | but it will never be what it could have been.

03:25:56.040 | Go in with a plan and enact it.

03:26:00.600 | Many people go in with a plan and don't follow it.

03:26:05.480 | Let's say, for example,

03:26:06.860 | we start with a program that goes like this.

03:26:13.480 | First, try to create the most honest assessment

03:26:18.480 | of yourself as a jiu-jitsu player.

03:26:21.320 | It's tough to make an honest assessment of yourself

03:26:25.560 | because you never actually get to see your game.

03:26:29.400 | So, what I would recommend is to start

03:26:32.120 | by videotaping yourself in sparring with your peers.

03:26:37.120 | - That's fascinating 'cause we don't even have

03:26:41.120 | that level of introspection ability to reflect

03:26:44.240 | of what we actually look like in grappling.

03:26:47.120 | - Start with an assessment of yourself.

03:26:49.000 | And the most honest one comes not from you,

03:26:51.320 | it comes from the camera.

03:26:52.520 | Have a look at what you see and start to say,

03:26:57.920 | okay, many of the weaknesses in your game

03:27:02.920 | are made much more apparent by looking from the outside in

03:27:06.560 | rather than feeling them during the heat of a match.

03:27:09.160 | Identify four or five of the biggest weaknesses that you see

03:27:15.360 | and start actively attacking those weaknesses.

03:27:19.640 | Ask yourself, let's say, for example,

03:27:22.020 | in the course of watching the videotape of yourself,

03:27:26.460 | you observe yourself losing three triangles.

03:27:30.120 | You attempted three triangle strangleholds,

03:27:31.880 | you failed all three.

03:27:33.040 | You could start by saying, okay, let me ask myself,

03:27:40.560 | who are the people I look up to the most

03:27:44.520 | with regards a triangle strangle?

03:27:46.920 | Who are the guys who have the best

03:27:48.760 | triangle strangles out there?

03:27:50.920 | Then ask yourselves, of those people,

03:27:54.720 | who are the ones whose body type and personality

03:27:57.320 | most closely mirrors my own?

03:27:59.960 | And that would be a good example

03:28:01.560 | of taking a problem in your game,

03:28:06.080 | contrasting it with elite level performance

03:28:09.360 | in people whose body type roughly matches your own,

03:28:12.120 | and then try to take lessons you learn

03:28:15.080 | by observing the best people

03:28:17.120 | and bringing them into your own game in one specific area.

03:28:21.080 | As time goes by, you do this with more and more elements

03:28:23.840 | of your game, you will undoubtedly improve.

03:28:27.560 | You will also have to make sure that you take time

03:28:31.160 | during class to actively work on these things.

03:28:35.120 | Now, sometimes in class, you don't get a choice.

03:28:37.220 | The instructor sometimes says, okay,

03:28:38.880 | today we're working this, this, and this,

03:28:41.020 | but there's always time after and before class

03:28:44.120 | where you can do your own drilling,

03:28:45.680 | where you can make your own inquiries.

03:28:47.440 | And during sparring, there's no rigorous control

03:28:51.640 | over what you do, you can try to work the game

03:28:54.240 | into the area of focus.

03:28:56.320 | So for example, if you want to work on front triangles,

03:28:59.360 | it would be wise for you to do most of your sparring

03:29:01.280 | from bottom guard positions,

03:29:03.960 | that'll give you the most opportunity.

03:29:05.860 | And in this sense, it always begins with

03:29:10.760 | an accurate assessment of your current skill level.

03:29:15.560 | You gotta start there.

03:29:16.720 | Then, I always encourage people to use video camera

03:29:21.180 | to make the most--

03:29:22.440 | - Honest.

03:29:23.280 | - Honest appraisal you can,

03:29:25.400 | because your own mind is not dishonest,

03:29:28.440 | but it's understandably inaccurate.

03:29:32.200 | You tend to feel things rather than see them

03:29:34.320 | when you're performing jiu-jitsu.

03:29:35.960 | Then make a program for yourself

03:29:41.720 | based around what you see as excellence.

03:29:44.540 | Look at the people in the sport who's,

03:29:49.580 | in the area you wanna work on,

03:29:51.320 | people who are renowned for skill in that area.

03:29:53.840 | If possible, narrow it down to people

03:29:57.120 | who have excellence in that area

03:29:59.120 | and their body type corresponds with your own.

03:30:02.880 | And then try to take lessons learned

03:30:05.360 | from observing the excellence in these elite athletes

03:30:08.480 | and bring elements of them into your game.

03:30:11.440 | Never try to bring an elite athlete's entire game

03:30:16.080 | to your game.

03:30:17.160 | That will create an inauthentic game on your part,

03:30:19.820 | which will always be a poor copy

03:30:21.860 | of what you're trying to watch.

03:30:23.480 | Rather, bring very specific areas and skills that you see

03:30:27.900 | and import them from different people

03:30:30.820 | until eventually you find something for yourself.

03:30:34.240 | Experiment a lot, okay?

03:30:37.320 | Everyone's different.

03:30:38.480 | And so, you will, don't see the video research

03:30:42.540 | as the final word.

03:30:44.340 | See video research the way a writer will see a muse,

03:30:49.340 | as someone who initiates discussion,

03:30:53.220 | opens inquiries for your own research.

03:30:56.280 | The most powerful moments you will have on the mat

03:31:01.700 | come from making discoveries for yourself,

03:31:04.560 | not being told what to do,

03:31:06.220 | not observing someone else doing something,

03:31:08.440 | but self-discoveries.

03:31:11.820 | Those are the ones that will last inside you.

03:31:14.780 | So, use video research not as the definitive answer

03:31:19.780 | to your problems, but as initiating research

03:31:23.300 | for yourself on the mat.

03:31:25.300 | And as time goes by and you do this more and more often

03:31:28.020 | in more and more areas of the sport,

03:31:29.780 | I promise you, you'll improve.

03:31:32.040 | - Yeah, and I guess when you have the plan,

03:31:35.400 | have a plan that carries across many training sessions.

03:31:38.620 | So, I just remember, I know this is perhaps dumb,

03:31:43.620 | but I saw in my own game early on a lot of growth

03:31:47.740 | is by self-identifying a problem

03:31:51.860 | and coming up by myself with a solution

03:31:54.860 | by watching, in that case, Marcel Garcia.

03:31:58.060 | I just thought my butterfly guard was very weak.

03:32:01.860 | And so, I thought, okay, what's the solution here?

03:32:04.660 | I thought maybe this X guard thing, double X guard.

03:32:09.540 | Okay, so I watched a bunch of video.

03:32:11.100 | Let me try to work on this.

03:32:12.300 | And then all I did, just this is self,

03:32:15.340 | but when I could get down by myself,

03:32:19.580 | meaning not instructor-guided classes,

03:32:22.360 | but in training, I would just,

03:32:24.100 | everything I would put myself into butterfly and X guard.

03:32:28.460 | - That's good.

03:32:29.300 | - And then just let go.

03:32:30.900 | Don't progress.

03:32:32.180 | Sweep and figure out a way to get swept,

03:32:34.640 | to get right back to it, back to, and everything.

03:32:37.100 | It was annoying probably to train with me

03:32:39.140 | 'cause that's all I did.

03:32:40.180 | And it's all I thought about.

03:32:41.460 | - I bet you learned quickly.

03:32:42.540 | - Yeah, I learned it's the most progress I've ever made.

03:32:45.100 | Now, you could say that X guard

03:32:48.100 | wasn't the right solution for me,

03:32:50.240 | that maybe that wasn't the weakest point for me to work on.

03:32:54.580 | If I were to look back now, it's still to this day, sadly,

03:32:57.460 | the obvious weakest point for me

03:33:01.260 | is escapes from much worse positions.

03:33:04.720 | That should be worked on.

03:33:06.120 | That should have been worked on from the very beginning.

03:33:08.160 | That's still, today, if I were to say

03:33:09.760 | what's the weakest thing that I should work on, absolutely,

03:33:12.840 | is even with one day a week is escapes.

03:33:17.840 | But yeah, a lot of that has to do with just

03:33:21.080 | carrying, focusing on the one thing

03:33:24.840 | over and over and over and over across training sessions.

03:33:27.820 | Now, it also, I would write down on a sheet of paper

03:33:32.000 | the number of times I would get an X guard sweep.

03:33:34.680 | And I would set a rule that I have to get

03:33:39.260 | whatever it was, like 500 sweeps a week.

03:33:42.580 | So I have to, and then the closer you get

03:33:44.980 | to the end of the week, the more you just pick up

03:33:47.740 | a small white belt. - 500 in a week?

03:33:49.820 | - Yeah, sometimes. - Your training partners

03:33:51.180 | must suck, bro.

03:33:52.700 | - No, you start with good ones,

03:33:55.460 | and then you get more and more desperate.

03:33:58.020 | You start finding the kid, right?

03:34:01.700 | You can just sweep over and over.

03:34:03.360 | But that number, for me, the numbers, for some reason,

03:34:07.560 | it set a goal to pull off a technique.

03:34:10.420 | It enforced, we're staying with this for a while.

03:34:16.200 | This is a journey we're doing.

03:34:17.360 | And for some reason, for me, that helped me focus the study

03:34:21.840 | to understand the deep complexities of this thing.

03:34:24.540 | At least for me, other people, nobody at the gym

03:34:28.080 | was doing X guard or anything of that,

03:34:30.160 | so you had to kind of figure everything out yourself.

03:34:32.940 | I'm sure there's better ways to do that,

03:34:35.340 | but at least that focus helps from a hobbyist perspective.

03:34:40.000 | What's the day, what's the perfect day

03:34:42.540 | in the life of John Donner?

03:34:44.820 | If we're talking about a basic non-ADCC,

03:34:47.560 | now, I'm really grateful that you sit down with me

03:34:53.180 | on a Sunday, late at night,

03:34:57.220 | but it all starts again for you tomorrow.

03:35:00.640 | So three training sessions a day.

03:35:04.040 | What time do you wake up?

03:35:06.680 | Do you do a mantra in the morning?

03:35:08.440 | Do you listen to some Zen music?

03:35:14.160 | What do you eat in the morning?

03:35:15.840 | What's the perfect day look like?

03:35:17.800 | You sacrifice a small animal.

03:35:21.000 | - To the gods.

03:35:26.580 | Usually, when you say a perfect day,

03:35:30.700 | what I think you really mean is an average day.

03:35:33.260 | - Perfectly productive average day.

03:35:35.020 | - Yeah.

03:35:36.060 | So let's take Monday morning.

03:35:38.300 | For you watching this video,

03:35:41.460 | we're filming this late on a Sunday night,

03:35:43.500 | so after this, I'll drive home.

03:35:46.580 | We just had ADCC.

03:35:50.340 | It was two weeks ago.

03:35:52.380 | It was one of the longest training camps.

03:35:55.740 | It was the longest training camp I've ever run

03:35:57.640 | because of the fact that we had to go through

03:35:59.400 | three different matches for Gordon-Ryan leading up to it.

03:36:02.200 | So immediately after ADCC,

03:36:07.020 | I cut the training down for the competitive athletes

03:36:09.640 | to one session per day for the first week after ADCC

03:36:14.100 | to give their bodies a bit of a break.

03:36:16.480 | I still have to teach two classes in addition to that,

03:36:20.040 | two recreational classes,

03:36:22.080 | so my teaching schedule went down to three classes per day.

03:36:26.840 | After one week of relative break,

03:36:31.080 | we go back to two competition classes per day

03:36:35.120 | plus two recreational classes

03:36:37.200 | plus an MMA class for Gary Tonin and his friends.

03:36:41.200 | The first class requires me to get up around 6 a.m.

03:36:49.680 | to drive.

03:36:51.840 | I'm still a student driver,

03:36:53.640 | so I'm not very good at driving,

03:36:55.840 | so I have to spend a little extra time

03:36:57.640 | to get to the destination on time.

03:36:59.880 | Just for the record,

03:37:00.840 | John pulled in in a red Lamborghini with a, no.

03:37:05.840 | You're the worst liar I've ever met.

03:37:08.720 | My day typically starts pretty early.

03:37:12.160 | I don't eat in the morning.

03:37:13.840 | I just get up and go to work,

03:37:16.120 | and I teach through the day.

03:37:19.120 | My last class finishes usually around 8 p.m.

03:37:21.880 | During that time,

03:37:24.400 | I coach jujitsu.

03:37:29.200 | I try to find time for one Instagram post per day,

03:37:32.960 | which usually describes some basic theme of jujitsu

03:37:37.200 | in most cases,

03:37:38.480 | unless we've just had a competition,

03:37:40.360 | in which case I'll talk about upcoming competitions

03:37:42.560 | or what happens after a competition,

03:37:44.680 | but most of them just express a simple jujitsu theme.

03:37:48.880 | I try to do a short workout for myself,

03:37:52.380 | and then I go home.

03:37:56.960 | At the end of the day,

03:37:57.840 | I always start by asking myself,

03:38:00.040 | what do my students need from me tomorrow,

03:38:02.240 | based on what I've seen today?

03:38:03.920 | What do the recreational students need,

03:38:05.920 | and what do the competitive students need?

03:38:08.040 | This is always done in the light of

03:38:11.840 | what are the upcoming competitions.

03:38:15.400 | But throughout the day,

03:38:16.220 | you're doing a lot of really in-depth classes.

03:38:20.560 | So how do you either prepare for them

03:38:22.540 | or think through them as they're happening?

03:38:24.620 | Think through the material that you're teaching.

03:38:29.180 | - I can look at a class.

03:38:30.620 | I've been doing this a long time,

03:38:31.680 | so I can just look at a class and be like,

03:38:33.460 | okay, these guys need this, this, and this.

03:38:35.540 | And then I make reflections at the end of the day.

03:38:38.220 | Then I'll take care of things that we all do,

03:38:41.740 | talk to family,

03:38:43.180 | occasionally go out for dinner with friends,

03:38:46.680 | dates, things like that.

03:38:50.380 | - Yeah, Hanzo had to really harass you,

03:38:52.020 | to drag you out and to hang out,

03:38:54.900 | and he was very convincing.

03:38:56.940 | And food-wise?

03:38:58.340 | - I eat once a day.

03:38:59.340 | - Eat once a day.

03:39:00.180 | - Yeah, at the end of the day,

03:39:01.020 | I usually stop off at a place like a supermarket,

03:39:04.220 | like Whole Foods or some equivalent to that,

03:39:06.860 | and buy something simple and eat.

03:39:11.100 | - The internet wants to know the details.

03:39:13.700 | Did you end up getting wifi for your apartment?

03:39:16.700 | - No.

03:39:18.260 | I'm still thinking about it.

03:39:19.660 | - So, yeah.

03:39:20.500 | - Yeah, so what are the pros and cons?

03:39:23.380 | - There's no cons, lots of pros,

03:39:26.420 | but I just don't put much importance to it.

03:39:30.500 | Things that are unimportant, I just ignore.

03:39:32.340 | - Yeah, there's a lot of things in life

03:39:33.540 | that have a lot of pros,

03:39:34.460 | but they're lower on the priority list.

03:39:36.300 | Why?

03:39:37.340 | Why, 'cause the 5G already--

03:39:39.380 | - 5G's got it covered.

03:39:41.680 | Do you watch much video?

03:39:43.040 | Do you watch video?

03:39:44.360 | Do you watch footage?

03:39:46.120 | - Video footage, quite often, yeah.

03:39:48.240 | Especially things from freestyle wrestling,

03:39:51.560 | Greco-Roman wrestling, judo, and mixed martial arts.

03:39:56.360 | Also, subsidiary sports to mixed martial arts,

03:39:59.880 | like boxing, Muay Thai, and European kickboxing.

03:40:03.560 | - Just for long-term idea generation?

03:40:05.880 | - Yes.

03:40:07.080 | - Like a plant, a seed, an idea?

03:40:09.520 | - Yeah, this is an interesting thing.

03:40:10.720 | How could this be incorporated in the context

03:40:12.560 | in which we use it, MMA or Jiu-Jitsu?

03:40:14.520 | - Maybe it's immediately obvious,

03:40:18.200 | or it might become obvious in a few weeks or months.

03:40:21.880 | Is there some aspect to the way you approach life

03:40:26.720 | and training and martial arts

03:40:28.880 | that amends itself to minimalism?

03:40:31.360 | It seems like you live a pretty stoic life.

03:40:34.600 | Or is that just a symptom of a focused existence?

03:40:37.800 | - My life wasn't always like this.

03:40:39.320 | I've gone through different phases in my life.

03:40:41.400 | I was a university student and teacher at university.

03:40:44.960 | I was a nightclub bouncer for more than a decade.

03:40:48.840 | I've been through different areas of life.

03:40:51.520 | I've seen most things, I've experienced a lot.

03:40:54.120 | I've traveled the world.

03:40:55.360 | At this point in my life,

03:40:58.440 | people think I live some kind of monk-like existence.

03:41:01.120 | I have a private life.

03:41:05.680 | I like to go out and have fun like everyone else.

03:41:09.560 | I'm not some kind of monk who just sits under a waterfall

03:41:14.560 | and meditates or anything crazy like that.

03:41:16.400 | - Well, that's why I'm currently going

03:41:18.360 | through that stage of my life, the monk-like existence.

03:41:21.280 | So I would be amiss not to ask you

03:41:24.160 | one of the most important questions

03:41:26.480 | one can possibly ask John Donaher,

03:41:30.000 | which is on the topic of animal combat.

03:41:32.640 | Who wins in a fight to the death?

03:41:37.560 | Or maybe in a sport competition setting,

03:41:40.200 | but let's go with a fight to the death.

03:41:42.080 | A grizzly bear, a silverback gorilla,

03:41:46.480 | and maybe a lion or a tiger, an African lion,

03:41:50.360 | or one of the flavors of tiger.

03:41:53.880 | I don't know who you think is more ferocious.

03:41:56.000 | What are the parameters to consider here?

03:41:57.960 | Maybe I can throw a few out.

03:41:59.560 | Maybe you can give me some thoughts

03:42:02.760 | about how much of these parameters matter.

03:42:05.320 | So first of all, intelligence.

03:42:07.720 | I do believe the gorilla is the most intelligent.

03:42:12.200 | I did research for this, as you could imagine.

03:42:15.240 | - Solo or with Joe Rogan?

03:42:20.000 | - The expert advisor to this very podcast

03:42:25.920 | on this very topic is indeed Joe Rogan, yes.

03:42:29.160 | So in captivity, gorillas have been documented

03:42:32.200 | to show complex emotions, form family bonds,

03:42:35.880 | the ability to use tools,

03:42:39.000 | and to be able to reason about the past and the future.

03:42:43.120 | - That's impressive.

03:42:43.940 | - So that's something that, at least in captivity,

03:42:46.780 | the other animals have not been able to do.

03:42:48.760 | - They already sound much more advanced than I am.

03:42:51.240 | (Lex laughing)

03:42:54.520 | - Yeah, so that's intelligence.

03:42:58.040 | Then there is weight.

03:43:00.680 | I think that's something that you think of at first.

03:43:04.320 | The lion, let's go with the big ones.

03:43:06.400 | I took notes here, 550 pounds for a big lion.

03:43:09.440 | - That's exceptionally large.

03:43:11.040 | Most male lions are around 450 pounds.

03:43:13.440 | That's an exceptional beast then.

03:43:15.040 | (Lex laughing)

03:43:17.160 | - Thank you.

03:43:18.000 | The tiger can be larger than that.

03:43:20.600 | - Yeah, much, much larger.

03:43:22.800 | - So we got the grizzly bear,

03:43:24.120 | which is probably the biggest of the bunch.

03:43:26.960 | The large ones get to 1,500 pounds.

03:43:30.120 | Correct me if some of this numbers--

03:43:31.560 | - I believe most grizzlies are around 1,000 pound mark.

03:43:35.160 | It's a big, big beast.

03:43:36.560 | - Well, I was looking up the biggest,

03:43:38.280 | but I didn't wanna do the biggest ever.

03:43:40.800 | Just what are the big, like the top of the range,

03:43:43.760 | 'cause there's always a range.

03:43:45.240 | - You can put it in at roughly double

03:43:47.200 | that of even a very big lion.

03:43:49.680 | - Of course, how that weight is used is very important.

03:43:53.200 | So there's also things which I find as interesting

03:43:55.680 | as anaconda, which just, let me throw that in there,

03:43:57.960 | because it's 200 pounds.

03:44:00.680 | What I really like about that is it's not just the weight,

03:44:03.960 | it's the form factor.

03:44:05.440 | And I think out of all of these,

03:44:07.480 | the anaconda is the most non-standard form factor.

03:44:12.040 | - I totally agree with that.

03:44:13.440 | It's like the knight on the chessboard.

03:44:17.000 | It comes in from a completely different angle.

03:44:19.160 | - So we got that.

03:44:20.000 | We got also strength, which could be measured

03:44:25.000 | in ability to carry stuff.

03:44:27.520 | So this was surprising to me.

03:44:29.620 | I did look into this carefully.

03:44:31.520 | The grizzly bear at 1,000 or 1,500 pounds

03:44:34.440 | can only carry at most its body weight, which is a lot.

03:44:38.600 | But a gorilla can carry 10 times its body weight.

03:44:43.040 | A gorilla can lift over 2,000 kilograms,

03:44:46.000 | so that's over 4,000 pounds.

03:44:48.680 | - And gorillas themselves, an adult male,

03:44:50.680 | weighs in around 350 to 400.

03:44:52.880 | - 400 pounds, yes.

03:44:54.720 | So I like how in this particular place

03:44:57.220 | where I found this, 2,000 kilograms

03:44:59.920 | is as heavy as 30 average humans.

03:45:02.800 | So a gorilla can carry 30 humans.

03:45:05.640 | So that's carrying strength.

03:45:07.040 | And then of course, bite force,

03:45:10.120 | 'cause that's one of the weapons in question here.

03:45:12.880 | So now this is really surprising to me.

03:45:15.400 | The gorilla has won me over through this, by the way.

03:45:19.260 | Intelligence, I'm a sucker for intelligence,

03:45:21.200 | but the gorilla bite force is the highest of all these,

03:45:24.380 | with 1,300 PSI, bear is second with 1,200 PSI,

03:45:28.300 | tiger is a third, I think tiger and lion

03:45:33.280 | is third with 1,000 PSI, it's comparable.

03:45:35.840 | And a bear is anywhere from 900 to 1,000 PSI.

03:45:40.500 | They're close, but gorilla, I would not have expected.

03:45:42.880 | Now, gorilla is not a carnivore,

03:45:45.320 | but apparently it chews, it mostly eats grassy stuff.

03:45:49.820 | But like--

03:45:52.080 | - It's difficult to explain

03:45:53.200 | why it has such a powerful bite.

03:45:54.960 | And it also, of course, has very large incisor teeth,

03:45:57.680 | as well as chewing teeth.

03:45:59.480 | So--

03:46:00.440 | - Also, no neck.

03:46:02.400 | - Yeah. (laughs)

03:46:03.960 | - So--

03:46:04.800 | - Its neck begins at the top of its head

03:46:06.240 | and this goes down to the shoulders.

03:46:07.520 | - Well, a lot of the way they use their teeth,

03:46:10.280 | all of these animals, the ultimate kill

03:46:14.100 | is to go for the neck, the bite on the neck.

03:46:16.160 | I don't know exactly why that is, probably has to do,

03:46:21.160 | why is that?

03:46:22.020 | - It's a very strong, controlled position,

03:46:23.440 | not just that it's a,

03:46:24.640 | is it the same as jiu-jitsu, you think?

03:46:27.320 | 'Cause they get to also choke 'em out?

03:46:28.560 | - It's very much in line with jiu-jitsu.

03:46:30.880 | Lions are famous for using strangulation

03:46:32.720 | as their primary method of killing.

03:46:34.040 | They get a hold of the neck

03:46:35.760 | and hold it until the animal drops.

03:46:38.480 | - Plus, claws.

03:46:41.320 | I believe the tiger and the bear use their claws.

03:46:44.920 | - And the lion, too.

03:46:45.960 | - The lion, right, and the lion.

03:46:49.420 | This is something that the gorilla doesn't do

03:46:53.420 | and a conda, obviously, doesn't do.

03:46:56.340 | It's a different approach.

03:46:57.500 | So what do you think, how do we think about this?

03:47:00.180 | Also, there is, I'm just not letting you talk, apparently,

03:47:02.900 | there's levels of aggression in terms of--

03:47:06.900 | - These are also very important considerations.

03:47:09.740 | - What is important to you?

03:47:11.020 | - All the considerations you've raised are very important

03:47:13.860 | and we would have to address them

03:47:16.140 | if we're gonna go through this topic.

03:47:18.580 | First things first,

03:47:19.860 | whenever you go into a discussion of this kind,

03:47:24.380 | there's a kind of natural impression that we all have

03:47:29.380 | as to which one would be the most formidable.

03:47:32.700 | And it's important that you become rather skeptical

03:47:38.980 | of your first intuitions

03:47:41.280 | because they're often very misleading.

03:47:43.180 | Just as every boy thinks his father

03:47:47.060 | is the strongest man in the world

03:47:49.340 | and then when he grows up into adulthood,

03:47:50.780 | he realizes his father was not even close

03:47:54.140 | to being the strongest man in the world.

03:47:55.780 | It's not because of anything other than inexperience.

03:47:59.580 | To a boy, his father seems overwhelmingly strong.

03:48:01.780 | He literally can't even imagine

03:48:03.340 | anyone else being stronger than that.

03:48:06.140 | So naively, he thinks his father

03:48:08.900 | is the strongest man in the world.

03:48:10.860 | So too in our relationship with animals.

03:48:14.220 | When we look at a silverback gorilla,

03:48:16.740 | it just looks overwhelmingly strong to us

03:48:21.180 | to a degree which is almost absurd.

03:48:22.940 | You picture the greatest combat athletes

03:48:27.420 | that humanity has ever produced.

03:48:29.740 | Prime Mike Tyson, Gordon Ryan for grappling.

03:48:33.100 | They would literally be torn limb from limb

03:48:35.780 | by an angry gorilla.

03:48:36.780 | It wouldn't even be remotely competitive.

03:48:39.820 | And so there's a sense in which we look at them in awe

03:48:42.100 | because of what they could do to us.

03:48:44.460 | But that can be very misleading.

03:48:46.940 | And just as a boy looks at his father

03:48:50.580 | as like the pinnacle of strength,

03:48:52.980 | you can't necessarily from a position

03:48:55.260 | of inexperience and weakness look at a given animal

03:48:57.620 | and say, "Oh, that must be the toughest animal

03:48:59.540 | "in the animal kingdom."

03:49:00.740 | There's levels to this game.

03:49:02.660 | And I think we can point out that the gorilla

03:49:06.500 | ultimately would be pretty low on those levels

03:49:09.860 | despite the fearsome appearance.

03:49:10.700 | - I have some pushback to this analysis

03:49:13.700 | because the data, we don't have much data on this.

03:49:16.940 | We don't have--

03:49:17.780 | - We actually have slightly more than you think, I believe.

03:49:19.780 | - Oh boy.

03:49:21.140 | Well, it's anecdotal.

03:49:22.540 | I feel like it's out of context.

03:49:23.700 | So these species don't use, this is not MMA.

03:49:26.620 | They don't do interspecies fighting often.

03:49:29.740 | - Yeah, but there are some ways of looking at this

03:49:31.740 | which can take this already interesting question

03:49:34.900 | and make it a lot more interesting.

03:49:36.660 | First, we've seen that intuitions aren't to be trusted.

03:49:42.660 | So if intuitions aren't to be trusted,

03:49:44.540 | well, what is to be trusted here?

03:49:46.460 | Well, I've always believed that there are three

03:49:49.260 | general elements that determine what level of success

03:49:55.700 | or failure anyone will experience in combat.

03:50:00.660 | And this is true both for individuals and for groups

03:50:04.020 | and even all the way up to nations.

03:50:05.860 | The first is what are your skills?

03:50:12.380 | The second is what are your physical and mental attributes?

03:50:15.780 | So it's skills, attributes.

03:50:17.780 | Those are the two primary ones.

03:50:19.660 | And there's the third, which is your experience

03:50:23.620 | in using those skills and attributes

03:50:26.180 | in real world scenarios.

03:50:27.780 | So whenever two, we'll start with two humans.

03:50:31.260 | When two humans get into a fight, ask yourself,

03:50:33.660 | what is their skill set?

03:50:35.300 | What are their physical and mental attributes?

03:50:38.820 | And what is their experience

03:50:41.180 | in using those in real world applications?

03:50:44.060 | And that will give you your first look at,

03:50:48.420 | okay, who's gonna be the more successful?

03:50:50.500 | Then in addition to those three general elements,

03:50:55.700 | there's also four more specific elements.

03:50:58.580 | What is the ability of the combatants to initiate combat?

03:51:06.620 | Because initiation is a big deal in fighting.

03:51:10.420 | The one who sees the enemy first

03:51:12.900 | and can create ambush conditions

03:51:15.380 | or initiate combat in an area or a terrain

03:51:20.380 | which is favorable to them,

03:51:22.220 | this is huge in determining the outcome of battles.

03:51:26.180 | Second, not only is initiation important,

03:51:30.780 | but disengagement is important.

03:51:32.500 | A lot of battles don't go according to plan.

03:51:34.500 | And so your ability to disengage at will

03:51:37.180 | and break off and away from a battle is key to success.

03:51:42.100 | So initiation and disengagement are big.

03:51:45.620 | The third big element,

03:51:48.820 | what is your ability to end a fight?

03:51:52.300 | Okay, do you have an efficient method of ending conflict?

03:51:55.800 | Without that, the conflict could go on to a point

03:52:00.100 | where you no longer have the ability to continue it.

03:52:04.500 | If you have some succinct method of finishing,

03:52:08.420 | this is huge in combat in determining winner or loser.

03:52:12.100 | - So both from a winning and a losing position?

03:52:14.020 | - Yes, if you don't have one,

03:52:15.020 | there's a much higher chance you'll lose.

03:52:16.860 | But if you have an ability to finish an opponent

03:52:19.180 | in the conflict reliably,

03:52:21.900 | this is very, very important

03:52:24.540 | in determining success or failure.

03:52:26.940 | And third is your ability to endure a conflict

03:52:30.060 | longer than the person you're engaged in,

03:52:33.020 | okay, engaged with, sorry.

03:52:35.180 | And so you get these four more specific elements now.

03:52:38.660 | Do you have the ability to initiate contact at will?

03:52:42.180 | Do you have the ability to break contact

03:52:44.440 | and disengage at will?

03:52:45.820 | Do you have the ability to finish your opponent efficiently?

03:52:50.980 | And do you have the ability to endure

03:52:52.820 | longer than your opponent does?

03:52:54.260 | If you have all four of those, that's huge for combat.

03:52:59.140 | - That probably applies to human on human.

03:53:02.060 | - Everything.

03:53:02.900 | - Very conflict. - Across everything.

03:53:04.220 | Even all the way up to nations.

03:53:05.780 | Also ask yourself,

03:53:09.060 | what are the most efficient

03:53:13.020 | methods of combat

03:53:17.820 | across the globe, across all species,

03:53:21.700 | all times, et cetera, et cetera.

03:53:23.780 | And you will see that ultimately

03:53:25.860 | they always come down to

03:53:28.300 | three things.

03:53:32.160 | The first is concentration of force.

03:53:35.160 | Okay, one of the most successful combat strategies

03:53:39.840 | of all time is the ability to take concentrated force

03:53:43.720 | against the zone of weakness in your opponent.

03:53:46.520 | And if you can do this,

03:53:47.720 | you will often break through to a point of vulnerability,

03:53:51.440 | attack that vulnerability in a way

03:53:52.960 | where your opponent cannot respond

03:53:54.840 | and cannot recover from that vulnerable point being broken.

03:53:57.600 | - Do a high amount of damage with precision.

03:54:00.160 | - Yes, so this is one of the great combat strategies

03:54:04.120 | across the animal kingdom, across human history, et cetera.

03:54:07.400 | The second would be ambush tactics.

03:54:12.480 | If you can ambush an opponent with the element of surprise,

03:54:18.200 | this is huge for success in combat.

03:54:22.960 | Almost all of the truly successful predators

03:54:25.400 | on this planet are ambush predators.

03:54:28.760 | The ability to get off to a good start

03:54:30.920 | in a way where opponents simply can't recover

03:54:34.280 | is huge for combat.

03:54:35.620 | - Are we allowing ambush in our discussion?

03:54:39.360 | Because humans would call this cheating perhaps.

03:54:43.920 | - Yes, we would.

03:54:44.920 | And humans are pretty damn good at it too.

03:54:48.420 | And then the third is endurance.

03:54:53.040 | Okay, some species, some people,

03:54:59.040 | humans actually are pretty good at this,

03:55:01.640 | use endurance as a weapon.

03:55:03.360 | And they simply wear an opponent down over time

03:55:06.280 | and break them.

03:55:09.000 | Internationally, this can be done economically

03:55:11.600 | through numbers, et cetera, et cetera.

03:55:15.360 | And you can destroy someone with your sheer endurance.

03:55:18.360 | - Yeah, a lot of wars throughout human history

03:55:20.120 | has been siege warfare.

03:55:21.280 | - Yeah, and so when you ask yourself,

03:55:23.800 | okay, which one of these animals

03:55:25.880 | are going to be the most successful in combat?

03:55:29.120 | Ask yourself, well, there's these three elements

03:55:32.280 | which tend to determine successful failure in warfare.

03:55:35.100 | Which animals exhibit these three principles the best?

03:55:39.440 | And we'll discuss this.

03:55:41.760 | But as far as generalities go,

03:55:46.760 | whenever you ask a question,

03:55:48.280 | who will win between A and B,

03:55:50.280 | ask yourself in terms of the light

03:55:52.800 | of what we've just discussed.

03:55:55.240 | What is their skill set?

03:55:58.200 | What are their attributes, both mental and physical?

03:56:01.520 | What is their experience in utilizing these

03:56:04.000 | in real world situations?

03:56:05.360 | And then the four more tactical elements,

03:56:08.400 | who gets to initiate contact?

03:56:10.400 | Can you break off contact at any given time?

03:56:13.240 | What is your endurance?

03:56:14.800 | Can you keep going longer than your opponent does?

03:56:18.880 | - So a skill set, I wonder if a big component of that,

03:56:22.040 | of how much practice there is

03:56:23.600 | off the battlefield. - Yes, exactly.

03:56:25.080 | - So how much, quote unquote,

03:56:26.960 | you would probably call it play, like play fighting.

03:56:30.000 | - Let's start going through our animals, okay?

03:56:32.400 | When you look at the gorilla,

03:56:34.480 | you will see immediately that almost every experience

03:56:37.640 | a gorilla has of combat is theatrical.

03:56:40.800 | - Yes.

03:56:42.560 | - They don't engage in killing things.

03:56:45.800 | They scare rival males away

03:56:50.280 | in order to gain ownership of females.

03:56:53.400 | But there is almost no intraspecies death

03:56:57.600 | in those conflicts.

03:56:58.440 | They're almost entirely theatrical.

03:57:00.400 | They have, for example, enormous canine teeth,

03:57:04.640 | but there is no record of them ever being used in combat.

03:57:07.520 | They appear to be used purely for intimidation purposes.

03:57:14.200 | There's a sense in which they have

03:57:20.880 | this tremendous appearance,

03:57:22.720 | and they have tremendous potential.

03:57:25.360 | They really do have freakish levels of strength

03:57:27.920 | in many different ways.

03:57:31.720 | And yet, the actual track record of using it is negligible.

03:57:36.240 | - So strange that evolution would develop

03:57:38.160 | such a powerful killing machine.

03:57:40.720 | - Like their bite force just makes no sense

03:57:43.160 | with regard to what they actually eat.

03:57:44.960 | - I think, well, no, I think--

03:57:47.200 | - Even the presence of canines doesn't make a lot of sense.

03:57:49.600 | They're not gonna use them, what are they?

03:57:51.480 | - It comes down to this idea

03:57:52.600 | of their big thing is intimidation.

03:57:54.920 | - So as a show, you wanna fake it

03:57:58.600 | and don't care if you ever make it,

03:58:00.040 | 'cause fake it was good enough

03:58:01.400 | given that particular dynamic.

03:58:03.320 | - Now let's contrast that with a male lion.

03:58:06.780 | Lions take on the biggest, meanest, toughest animals

03:58:13.520 | in the most competitive killing war on planet Earth,

03:58:21.240 | which is continental Africa.

03:58:23.360 | And they literally just take,

03:58:27.960 | I mean, occasionally they lose,

03:58:30.080 | but it's rare and they take out everything.

03:58:34.960 | Just in order to eat,

03:58:36.680 | they have to take down wildebeest, Cape buffalo.

03:58:40.200 | Like Cape buffalo are incredibly dangerous beasts

03:58:43.880 | just by themselves.

03:58:45.400 | And yet, lions regularly take them down.

03:58:49.280 | Occasionally, large numbers of lions

03:58:51.160 | will even swarm elephant

03:58:52.680 | and over 12-hour periods take down elephant

03:58:56.160 | on some occasions.

03:58:57.280 | This is all on video, this is not just speculation.

03:59:00.040 | So they just have a level of combat experience

03:59:04.120 | which no other animal can do.

03:59:07.280 | - If I were to also project,

03:59:09.240 | so the Eastern European style of wrestling

03:59:12.160 | where they spend so many hours on the mat,

03:59:13.920 | they really value the number of hours on the mat

03:59:16.520 | at play from childhood.

03:59:18.760 | The lions probably,

03:59:20.920 | from my extensive watching videos on YouTube,

03:59:23.960 | they seem to play with each other for fun a lot.

03:59:27.120 | And I guess with the gorilla--

03:59:27.960 | - Even as cubs you see it.

03:59:29.080 | - You don't interact, you don't play with other gorillas.

03:59:31.920 | Like you're more spending a lot more time

03:59:35.520 | around the opposite sex.

03:59:38.560 | - Yeah.

03:59:39.400 | I mean, even lions, when they fight each other,

03:59:45.480 | the mortality rate when lions fight each other

03:59:48.600 | male lions for ownership of a pride

03:59:51.400 | is very, very high,

03:59:54.000 | much, much higher than I believe any other species on earth.

03:59:57.040 | They almost always fights to the death

04:00:00.640 | for the simple reason that

04:00:02.280 | when a male lion loses control of a pride,

04:00:04.520 | the first act the new lion does

04:00:07.360 | is to kill the genetic offspring of the previous male lion.

04:00:11.120 | So when a lion fights another male lion,

04:00:13.240 | when one male lion fights another,

04:00:15.000 | it's not just a fight for his own life,

04:00:16.800 | it's a fight for his genetic offspring.

04:00:21.360 | And failure means not only does he die,

04:00:24.720 | all his offspring dies.

04:00:26.440 | And so when they fight, the implications are so deep.

04:00:30.120 | It's like a fight for your, not just you, but your DNA.

04:00:34.660 | Most male lions have very short runs at the top.

04:00:40.600 | They get killed or run off by other lions.

04:00:45.400 | Now, this kind of harsh combat experience,

04:00:50.400 | no other animal can claim to have this.

04:00:54.360 | Between what they kill to eat

04:00:56.940 | and what they have to do to defend their stake in a pride,

04:01:01.940 | no other animal fights like that.

04:01:04.620 | They just bring a level of depth to combat

04:01:10.600 | which is unmatched in the animal kingdom.

04:01:13.920 | They also have some other elements too

04:01:16.600 | that they get the luxury because of their social nature

04:01:20.760 | of taking more risks than other animals.

04:01:23.120 | Like a tiger hunts alone.

04:01:25.380 | So if it gets injured, it's a big problem.

04:01:27.800 | It can die if it's injured.

04:01:29.680 | A lion can fight a Cape buffalo, get injured,

04:01:33.680 | and be covered by the other lions for food

04:01:35.680 | until it recovers.

04:01:37.640 | So it learns to take risks

04:01:39.520 | and it's not afraid to go out and fight very, very hard.

04:01:43.300 | Whereas other animals tend to shy away from risk

04:01:45.680 | because they're solitary.

04:01:46.960 | Bears are solitary, tigers are solitary.

04:01:50.720 | So they learn from an early age not to take the big risks,

04:01:53.640 | to go to a certain level and stop.

04:01:55.560 | - If I could push back.

04:01:56.520 | So that's aggression and risk-taking.

04:01:59.840 | That's a plus for the lion.

04:02:01.440 | But to defend the gorilla, 'cause you said skillset,

04:02:05.360 | they are of all of those, the only ones that use tools,

04:02:09.040 | have shown to use tools,

04:02:11.400 | we didn't say anything about weapons.

04:02:14.580 | A gorilla could, in theory, pick up a rock.

04:02:17.500 | And it does have the force, the power,

04:02:23.580 | and the capabilities to do a lot of damage.

04:02:26.620 | It doesn't have the practice.

04:02:28.380 | It doesn't have the experience.

04:02:30.120 | But don't you think if a gorilla's back is to the wall,

04:02:35.120 | so you put them in a situation of it is life and death.

04:02:41.440 | For both the lion and the gorilla.

04:02:43.040 | Don't you value intelligence at least a little bit here?

04:02:47.220 | There's a reason why humans, this is like evidence

04:02:49.960 | that humans have spread all across the world

04:02:54.740 | while being kind of weak.

04:02:57.000 | Why?

04:02:57.840 | - Intelligence is a huge, huge asset.

04:03:00.720 | Humanity is positive proof

04:03:02.480 | that it is the most important asset.

04:03:04.780 | But it takes time in order to work its magic.

04:03:10.140 | It took humans 200,000 years

04:03:13.540 | to go from the bottom of the food chain

04:03:14.860 | to the top of the food chain.

04:03:16.300 | And gorillas have a lot of work to do

04:03:19.080 | before they get to that level.

04:03:20.580 | - I guess humans can pass knowledge.

04:03:22.740 | - You said in theory, gorillas could do this.

04:03:25.140 | But let's talk about practice now.

04:03:27.280 | First off, there are many documented incidents

04:03:30.380 | of leopards killing gorillas.

04:03:32.540 | - That's anecdotal evidence.

04:03:35.580 | - No, it's not anecdotal.

04:03:36.420 | - There's a bunch of bitch ass gorillas walking around.

04:03:38.300 | We know this.

04:03:39.240 | We're asking.

04:03:40.080 | - It's not anecdotal.

04:03:41.220 | It was observed by a group of people

04:03:43.460 | who specialized in observing gorillas

04:03:45.780 | over a 12 year period.

04:03:47.420 | They regularly found gorilla toes in leopard defecation.

04:03:52.420 | They also saw that over a certain period,

04:03:57.820 | some 36 gorillas have been killed.

04:04:00.140 | And evidence strongly suggested

04:04:02.860 | leopard predation was the reason.

04:04:05.020 | Apparently, leopards had figured out

04:04:07.520 | that there was a femoral artery in gorillas' legs.

04:04:11.440 | And were doing a move which, from the sounds of it,

04:04:13.540 | sounds a lot like a Barambolo.

04:04:15.140 | Where they were spinning underneath gorillas

04:04:16.700 | and biting the femoral artery and then disengaging

04:04:19.260 | and watching them bleed out and die and then eating them.

04:04:21.780 | Now, a leopard is no match for a lion.

04:04:26.780 | The only defense it has to a lion is to run up a tree.

04:04:30.580 | It cannot engage with a lion

04:04:32.260 | on anything close to equal terms.

04:04:34.900 | - It may seem like we're going on tangents, but we're not.

04:04:37.280 | Just because of the foot,

04:04:38.420 | the attack of the artery on the foot.

04:04:40.700 | Is there weaknesses that the lion might have of that?

04:04:44.020 | - What I'm saying is, I know it's not equivalent,

04:04:46.740 | but the fact that a leopard does so well

04:04:49.480 | against even fully grown male gorillas

04:04:51.860 | should make you rather suspicious

04:04:55.380 | of a gorilla's ability to fight a lion.

04:04:57.960 | - Fair enough.

04:04:58.800 | - Let's also go further into this.

04:04:59.620 | Let's talk about concentration of force.

04:05:02.300 | A lion has the quintessential concentration of force,

04:05:05.740 | which is fangs and claws.

04:05:07.840 | The gorilla is the exact opposite.

04:05:12.560 | It can't even make a fist.

04:05:14.980 | And so it can only throw open-handed slaps and grab things.

04:05:18.620 | So it has no ability with its arms to concentrate force

04:05:22.760 | in any kind of efficient way.

04:05:24.780 | When a lion or a tiger, or a bear for that matter,

04:05:28.740 | swings at you, it's got four claws

04:05:31.480 | from four to six inches long.

04:05:33.560 | That's like four blades going into you.

04:05:35.880 | They can retract their claws so they're always sharp.

04:05:38.240 | - But the reach is significantly longer for the gorilla.

04:05:42.000 | The length of the--

04:05:42.840 | - The ability to engage with speed

04:05:44.760 | on the part of the cats is far, far greater.

04:05:47.960 | - And also mobility on two feet,

04:05:50.160 | the bipedal nature of a gorilla, the temporary bipedal.

04:05:53.760 | So the bear has the same.

04:05:55.200 | - It has no impact.

04:05:57.040 | Humans are bipedal, and lions kill 240 humans a year

04:06:00.440 | on average.

04:06:03.040 | - So okay, okay, okay, what about bear?

04:06:05.960 | - Now bear, bear is a different--

04:06:07.680 | - Has all the same things that a lion has.

04:06:10.720 | The claws, the teeth, has more weight,

04:06:14.160 | has more strength, has more power.

04:06:18.960 | - Okay, now this is an interesting question.

04:06:21.040 | Okay, you get a fully grown North American grizzly

04:06:24.200 | versus an African lion.

04:06:25.400 | This is an interesting battle.

04:06:26.560 | - I also have questions about polar bears.

04:06:28.240 | It's unclear to me, 'cause they're bigger in every way

04:06:31.520 | than a grizzly, but they probably don't get the experience

04:06:35.040 | in the practice.

04:06:35.880 | - Yeah, also they have a much more limited set of animals

04:06:40.520 | that they prey upon.

04:06:42.400 | So I'm pretty sure grizzly is gonna be tough to beat

04:06:45.680 | as far as top bear goes.

04:06:47.240 | A grizzly bear, I believe, would be a formidable adversary,

04:06:55.320 | even for a male lion.

04:06:57.520 | They're literally twice their size.

04:07:00.320 | They have an ability to get away from strangleholds

04:07:04.200 | by standing up on two legs.

04:07:05.640 | So the lion's primary method of killing,

04:07:07.720 | which is to strangle, would be very difficult

04:07:10.080 | for them to employ upon a bear.

04:07:12.040 | Interestingly, the bear's primary method of killing

04:07:16.640 | is to pin.

04:07:17.680 | It pins animals and then just slowly eats them

04:07:20.160 | while they're still alive.

04:07:21.280 | They have a rather barbaric means of killing.

04:07:24.360 | Lions are much more humane in the way they kill.

04:07:29.800 | What I see as the primary problem is that neither one

04:07:32.560 | would be able to kill the other.

04:07:34.960 | - That finishing thing that you mentioned.

04:07:36.120 | - Yeah, they both fail on the finishing criteria.

04:07:40.080 | The lion would not be able to strangle a bear.

04:07:42.160 | Even in the best case scenario where he got his teeth

04:07:45.100 | into the neck, the bear can stand up

04:07:47.080 | and presumably shake him off.

04:07:48.620 | The bear would never be able to pin a lion

04:07:56.960 | for long enough to be able to hold it down

04:07:58.520 | and slowly maul it over time the way it can

04:08:01.240 | with an elk or a caribou.

04:08:03.200 | So I don't believe either would be able

04:08:05.880 | to finish the other.

04:08:07.160 | - They would just become exhausted.

04:08:08.400 | - It would come down to endurance.

04:08:10.620 | Now that's where things get interesting

04:08:11.960 | because the bear is much more of an endurance hunter

04:08:15.280 | and the lion is much more of an ambush hunter.

04:08:18.020 | Lion's quick, explosive, much higher top speed.

04:08:21.520 | They've got a top speed of 45 to 50 miles an hour.

04:08:24.280 | A bear can do up to 35, but it can run for long periods

04:08:27.920 | up to 25 miles an hour, very long periods.

04:08:30.920 | They're mostly an endurance hunter.

04:08:34.600 | They just run elk and moose down until they're exhausted

04:08:38.560 | and then pin them and kill them.

04:08:40.860 | So if it came down to endurance,

04:08:43.160 | it might go the way of the bear

04:08:44.840 | if they were caged up together.

04:08:47.720 | However, there is very strong evidence

04:08:53.000 | from both hunters and video

04:08:57.000 | which shows on many occasions,

04:08:59.320 | bears being chased off by cougar and wolverines.

04:09:04.320 | Now-

04:09:07.560 | - What's that?

04:09:08.400 | That's fear?

04:09:09.220 | What is that?

04:09:10.060 | What do you mean chased off?

04:09:10.960 | - If they fight over meat,

04:09:14.000 | and say that, for example, a cougar has killed something

04:09:17.740 | and the bear wants the meat,

04:09:19.500 | the cougar will-

04:09:20.340 | - The bear has risk aversion.

04:09:22.360 | - Exactly, exactly.

04:09:23.560 | The bear's a risk averse.

04:09:25.180 | What I would say is this.

04:09:26.080 | The bears are very, very powerful in their domain,

04:09:29.520 | but they don't have the battle experience of a lion.

04:09:32.840 | They don't take on animals as tough as a Cape buffalo.

04:09:35.640 | They don't take on elephant.

04:09:37.480 | The toughest thing it would probably take on

04:09:39.200 | would probably be a bull moose.

04:09:41.400 | And a bull moose is a formidable animal,

04:09:46.080 | but it's nothing like a Cape buffalo.

04:09:48.440 | It's nothing like an elephant or a hippopotamus.

04:09:52.240 | So what I would suggest is this.

04:09:55.680 | In the wild, I don't believe either one

04:09:58.000 | is capable of killing the other,

04:09:59.520 | but I do believe based on video evidence

04:10:01.660 | of cougars and wolverines chasing off bears,

04:10:04.840 | that a lion would provide enough threat

04:10:09.760 | in a brief fight that a bear would back away.

04:10:13.160 | If you put them in a cage, however,

04:10:15.160 | where neither one could back away,

04:10:17.160 | I would slightly favor the bear

04:10:19.360 | based on the fact that neither one can kill each other,

04:10:22.280 | it would come down to endurance.

04:10:23.600 | - You mean like an octagon?

04:10:24.840 | - Yeah, that's gotta be the next UFC, by the way.

04:10:27.320 | Bear versus lion.

04:10:29.160 | - But things change.

04:10:30.000 | Joe Rogan is a big fan of the idea of fighting in a stadium,

04:10:32.920 | for humans fighting in a stadium.

04:10:34.560 | So in a stadium, a bear--

04:10:38.120 | - I would slightly favor a bear.

04:10:39.840 | Now, I still think that the lion would have a chance,

04:10:43.200 | but I would favor the bear in a betting match.

04:10:45.500 | Some of the best evidence we have

04:10:48.280 | for animal versus animal fights

04:10:49.760 | come from the ancient Romans,

04:10:50.880 | who actually used to put animals in gladiatorial combat.

04:10:54.640 | They, for example, had several incidents

04:11:00.280 | where they wrote about tiger versus lion conflict.

04:11:04.880 | And in one famous passage,

04:11:07.640 | they described a lion getting destroyed by a female tiger.

04:11:12.640 | So there's some evidence to suggest

04:11:16.760 | that they had more expertise of this than we do,

04:11:20.320 | because they had a big population of wild animals,

04:11:23.880 | which they just put to fight each other.

04:11:26.060 | Unfortunately, there's nothing that they wrote

04:11:30.200 | about bears versus lion.

04:11:32.960 | They did talk about bears versus bulls.

04:11:36.000 | They did talk about lions versus tigers,

04:11:40.320 | but they never mentioned bear versus lion,

04:11:43.440 | so we don't have any evidence for that.

04:11:45.320 | So we have to be a little bit more speculative.

04:11:47.280 | Now, given that bears do get chased off by cougar,

04:11:49.880 | and cougar is weak compared with a male lion--

04:11:53.600 | - Well, what do you draw from that, by the way?

04:11:55.440 | - I would suggest that--

04:11:56.560 | - Is it about the bears or about the cougar?

04:11:58.320 | - It's more about the bear.

04:11:59.520 | Like, in theory, a bear should be able to crush a cougar,

04:12:02.120 | but it seems to be the bear is just saying,

04:12:04.360 | "Eh, this thing could hurt me,

04:12:06.280 | "so I'm not gonna risk injury," and backs away.

04:12:09.320 | I think it would back away in the wild from a lion,

04:12:12.600 | but put him in a cage,

04:12:14.500 | and I slightly favor the grizzly, based on endurance.

04:12:19.000 | - So the final conclusion,

04:12:21.840 | if you had to just bet everything you own,

04:12:24.960 | so you got, let's say, we got the octagon,

04:12:29.320 | we bring in a bear.

04:12:30.580 | Now, this is, like, legendary bear, okay?

04:12:34.600 | - Full-grown grizzly.

04:12:35.800 | - Full-grown grizzly, but not only that,

04:12:38.560 | that grizzly has seen some shit.

04:12:40.320 | - What's the most it could have seen?

04:12:42.080 | A bull moose?

04:12:43.920 | A caribou?

04:12:44.920 | That's the toughest opponent it's ever had?

04:12:46.560 | - It once, no, no, no, no,

04:12:48.280 | no, this one once ran into a pack of other grizzlies

04:12:52.600 | and had to fend, and he's got scars.

04:12:56.200 | - Pack of grizzlies, isn't there a pack of grizzlies

04:12:57.760 | that's solitary?

04:12:58.920 | - Wolves, wolves, wolves.

04:13:00.520 | Wolves are not practiced for a bear.

04:13:02.120 | Who attacks a bear?

04:13:03.440 | - That's my point.

04:13:04.560 | Bears don't really live in a competitive environment.

04:13:06.480 | Lions do.

04:13:07.320 | - But sometimes it can get desperate,

04:13:09.160 | as it was a pack of wolves.

04:13:11.160 | - But a pack of wolves is nothing.

04:13:13.560 | It's nothing.

04:13:15.400 | - All right, fine.

04:13:16.220 | - Lions deal with packs of hyenas.

04:13:17.680 | - Okay, what was the, just imagine,

04:13:20.280 | over the past hundred years,

04:13:21.520 | what do you think is the hardest fight

04:13:24.000 | that a grizzly bear has been in?

04:13:26.560 | Like somewhere in Alaska, we never heard,

04:13:28.720 | all of a sudden, in the middle of the night,

04:13:30.560 | all you hear is the bear just--

04:13:32.360 | - Yeah, they don't really,

04:13:33.280 | there's nothing that tough.

04:13:34.120 | - No, there's gotta have been something.

04:13:36.200 | Humans have killed tens of millions of people in wars.

04:13:38.280 | - They run away from cougars and wolverines.

04:13:40.680 | - No, that's anecdotal evidence.

04:13:42.360 | There's gotta be one bear.

04:13:44.040 | - There's video footage of it.

04:13:45.240 | You can watch it yourself.

04:13:46.280 | - That's called anecdotal evidence.

04:13:47.720 | There's got, I guarantee you, in the dark of the night,

04:13:51.500 | there was an epic battle of which there's still legend

04:13:55.080 | amongst the bears in that part of Canada.

04:13:56.960 | - Who did it battle in Canada?

04:13:59.480 | - Moose.

04:14:00.480 | - Other bears, you don't think they'd go at it?

04:14:02.560 | - Yeah, bears fight each other,

04:14:03.640 | but it's largely theatrical.

04:14:05.360 | They never kill each other.

04:14:06.200 | When lions fight each other,

04:14:07.040 | they kill each other all the time.

04:14:08.700 | Someone would have seen it by now.

04:14:12.600 | - Interesting.

04:14:13.800 | All right, so you're already saying--

04:14:16.080 | - My point is that bears are just,

04:14:17.400 | they wanna get their feet wet.

04:14:19.640 | - You're giving no credit for gorillas,

04:14:21.600 | so you're saying lion wins.

04:14:23.040 | Your money's on the lion.

04:14:23.880 | - No, I'm saying lion would win in the wild

04:14:26.480 | because they can't kill each other.

04:14:27.840 | They can't end the fight.

04:14:28.920 | That's one of our most important criteria.

04:14:31.520 | But lions can almost always initiate the action

04:14:35.160 | because they have much better ability

04:14:38.600 | to see at night, for example.

04:14:40.160 | Bears have very average night vision.

04:14:42.400 | Lions have superb night vision.

04:14:44.440 | So at nighttime, they can always initiate the fight.

04:14:47.400 | Lions are natural ambush predators,

04:14:49.160 | so it's always gonna have the advantage of ambush.

04:14:52.360 | The great advantage that bears have is endurance.

04:14:56.240 | But bears are very risk-averse,

04:14:57.840 | and they're not used to fighting

04:15:00.000 | like the toughest, toughest animals.

04:15:01.680 | The toughest animal they fight is a moose or a caribou.

04:15:04.920 | These are not even close to the animals

04:15:07.760 | that lions have to go up against on a regular basis.

04:15:10.320 | - So if somebody wins, it's gonna be the lion for you.

04:15:13.440 | - I still think that the size and endurance of the bear,

04:15:17.240 | if they were locked in a cage together,

04:15:18.920 | I would still favor the bear under those circumstances.

04:15:21.200 | But in the wild, I believe the bear will back away

04:15:23.440 | quickly from the lion. - But in the cage,

04:15:24.720 | no time limit, you favor the bear.

04:15:26.320 | What if it's five rounds or five minutes,

04:15:28.080 | championship rounds?

04:15:29.040 | - Then I would go with the lion

04:15:30.080 | because the lion has a huge speed advantage.

04:15:32.200 | - So it's gonna--

04:15:33.040 | - It's gonna injure it, tear it up, and do immediate damage.

04:15:37.480 | Like, I'll put it this way.

04:15:38.480 | If lion and bear fight, first 15 minutes,

04:15:40.680 | I favor the lion 100%.

04:15:42.520 | But then as time goes by, that size and weight is gonna,

04:15:46.640 | and endurance is gonna have an effect.

04:15:48.880 | - I'll bring up shortly somebody

04:15:50.400 | that's gonna probably disagree with you about some things.

04:15:53.440 | - Hopefully it's a grizzly bear

04:15:54.520 | and he comes in and just eats me.

04:15:55.680 | (laughing)

04:15:57.240 | - Oh, that would be so epic.

04:15:58.920 | - Make a hell of a podcast.

04:16:01.000 | - I wonder who he would eat first,

04:16:03.200 | who would look scarier and more delicious, I'm not sure.

04:16:06.280 | The black and white could either piss him off.

04:16:08.440 | - He would think you were a penguin.

04:16:09.640 | (laughing)

04:16:11.880 | - Is that a good thing or not?

04:16:14.080 | - Not good.

04:16:14.920 | - If it was a polar bear, maybe it's different.

04:16:17.480 | Do you care--

04:16:18.320 | - If there's no penguins in the North Pole.

04:16:19.680 | - Deeply about your, about athletes you coached,

04:16:22.920 | about people in your life.

04:16:24.880 | So I have to ask this question.

04:16:27.200 | If one of those athletes, let's say Gordon Ryan,

04:16:31.080 | now I was the dictator of the world

04:16:34.300 | and this would entertain me,

04:16:35.760 | so I force you and Gordon to do this,

04:16:39.520 | to fight a bear or a lion, Gordon has to,

04:16:43.660 | how would you coach him to do it,

04:16:47.080 | to have any chance of winning?

04:16:50.160 | - He goes in empty-handed.

04:16:51.360 | - Empty-handed, you can choose stadium or cage.

04:16:55.640 | - Gordon Ryan, empty-handed versus a lion.

04:17:00.400 | - You get to choose, lion versus bear, it's up to you.

04:17:03.280 | - Okay, my advice would be very simple.

04:17:06.280 | I would say, Gordon, you're fucked.

04:17:08.660 | You're going to die badly.

04:17:12.100 | Choose the lion 'cause it will strangle you to death

04:17:14.840 | rather than pin you down and maul you to death.

04:17:17.760 | - Didn't we just talk about audacious goals?

04:17:20.020 | With Nicholas Mergoff.

04:17:22.400 | - This is not a question of audacious goals,

04:17:24.360 | this is a question of minimizing pain.

04:17:26.200 | - So you coach your athletes to quit

04:17:28.620 | before the battle has been fought.

04:17:30.000 | - 100%, yeah.

04:17:33.160 | - You don't think he has a chance?

04:17:34.480 | You don't think he has a chance?

04:17:35.440 | - How, what's he gonna do?

04:17:37.080 | - You don't think there's a technical,

04:17:38.680 | first of all, intelligence, so technical--

04:17:40.280 | - What's he gonna do, a heel hook?

04:17:41.560 | - No, well, first of all, maybe.

04:17:43.360 | - He can't do a double A, he's got four fucking legs.

04:17:45.640 | - Okay, what if Gordon gets any starting position he wants?

04:17:49.280 | - Ooh, yeah, that's gonna be really useful

04:17:51.480 | on a thousand-pound bear. - You don't think

04:17:52.320 | he can have back control?

04:17:53.680 | - On a thousand-pound bear?

04:17:54.880 | - Yeah.

04:17:55.720 | - What good would back control?

04:17:57.200 | Shaken off, he'll get torn off.

04:17:59.340 | - With what?

04:18:01.240 | - He reaches back, he's got four six-inch claws.

04:18:03.720 | - It's hard to, oh, okay, I wonder what is the reach.

04:18:07.040 | - Whatever he touches, he's gonna destroy it.

04:18:07.880 | - What if it's not a flexible bear?

04:18:10.720 | So you think there's no control?

04:18:12.320 | What about like a low,

04:18:13.480 | like some kind of controlling position from,

04:18:17.280 | yeah, like you said, Brambo, like from underneath?

04:18:20.440 | Nothing?

04:18:21.280 | - This discussion is so insane that

04:18:23.120 | I didn't even know where to begin criticism.

04:18:25.760 | - I don't think you're open-minded enough.

04:18:27.920 | - We could turn this down,

04:18:29.120 | forget about Gordon fighting a lion or a bear,

04:18:32.240 | that's completely impossible.

04:18:34.480 | An adult male chimp will destroy Gordon.

04:18:37.880 | - So not even a gorilla?

04:18:39.760 | - But gorilla. - What about the aggression,

04:18:40.800 | yeah, the aggression?

04:18:42.440 | - A male chimp is more than enough

04:18:44.040 | to kill any human on the planet, including Gordon Ryan.

04:18:46.700 | - So Gordon Ryan fighting a chimp,

04:18:49.560 | a good-sized-- - Did, did.

04:18:50.920 | - No, a thousand times, how many times does he win?

04:18:53.720 | - He loses a thousand times.

04:18:56.080 | It's not even competitive,

04:18:57.200 | it's not even remotely competitive.

04:18:58.040 | - Do you think he will disagree?

04:19:00.320 | - No.

04:19:01.160 | - Do you think anyone will disagree?

04:19:03.920 | Anyone?

04:19:04.760 | - Yeah, morons.

04:19:05.720 | (Lex laughing)

04:19:08.120 | - Okay, somebody that I think you might know

04:19:11.720 | is a famous actor, Tom Hardy,

04:19:14.680 | but he's also doing quite a bit of jiu-jitsu.

04:19:17.240 | The reason this makes sense to bring up now

04:19:20.000 | is he's also, I saw, narrating a new Sky original series

04:19:23.840 | called "Predators" coming out in December

04:19:27.640 | where they follow five different predators

04:19:29.880 | and tell their full story about all the fighting

04:19:32.360 | and the killing and all that kind of stuff.

04:19:33.840 | And he's doing that.

04:19:34.680 | He's like-- - Fascinating.

04:19:35.800 | - It's like Morgan-- - What are the predators?

04:19:38.000 | - It's like Morgan Freeman from "March of the Penguins."

04:19:41.840 | It's Tom Hardy for the predators.

04:19:44.400 | So I don't, I saw a bear and a lion in the trailer,

04:19:49.400 | but they also had something,

04:19:51.760 | I didn't watch it too careful,

04:19:52.760 | but they had something like a hyena.

04:19:54.320 | So I think they were talking about,

04:19:55.920 | I don't know if it's a hyena, but something like that,

04:19:57.680 | like pack animals that attack and--

04:20:00.400 | - Hyenas are formidable, formidable animals.

04:20:03.200 | - So it's not all about size, it's about strategy.

04:20:06.040 | - Yeah, the most important thing in nature is numbers.

04:20:08.740 | A pack of animals will always destroy a single animal.

04:20:12.360 | - And I think that show in particular

04:20:13.720 | is not 100% about who wins or so on.

04:20:16.980 | It's about the fascinating stories

04:20:18.460 | of how these predators

04:20:21.440 | sort of dominate their particular environment.

04:20:24.040 | 'Cause it's not about these like artificial match-ups,

04:20:27.280 | it's about giving your environment,

04:20:28.800 | how do you succeed and all that kind of stuff.

04:20:31.300 | - Maybe we could do Gordon Ryan versus a house cat.

04:20:34.440 | Gordon might have a small chance against a house cat,

04:20:39.240 | maybe, maybe.

04:20:40.600 | - See, now I know you're just trolling me.

04:20:43.400 | I think Gordon has a chance against,

04:20:47.160 | well, definitely against the smaller apes,

04:20:51.400 | but I have no way of proving it.

04:20:52.720 | And the internet will say I'm an idiot, so there you go.

04:20:55.440 | - Yeah, the internet is correct every so often.

04:20:58.440 | - So there's a, oh, it's funny enough,

04:20:59.800 | I'm looking at Tom's Instagram,

04:21:01.640 | he has a picture with Hanzo.

04:21:02.680 | He's competed recently, which is very cool, in jiu-jitsu.

04:21:05.560 | - That's awesome.

04:21:06.400 | - That's tough to do for a celebrity to step up.

04:21:08.000 | - Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.

04:21:09.680 | He used to consult with me a little bit

04:21:12.560 | on moves when he was starting out.

04:21:15.400 | He's a very, very nice person.

04:21:17.680 | - Oh, about jiu-jitsu?

04:21:18.600 | - Yeah, he asked questions about jiu-jitsu.

04:21:20.800 | He struck me as being a very, very nice person.

04:21:22.720 | - I would love to be a fly on that wall,

04:21:24.280 | but he made a post on Instagram,

04:21:27.400 | which I'd love to get your opinion on.

04:21:29.160 | It has very much like a John Donahart style

04:21:31.360 | of digging into the philosophy

04:21:34.360 | of the impact of jiu-jitsu on one's life.

04:21:37.160 | - Is his Instagram post 18 pages long?

04:21:40.120 | - Yes.

04:21:40.960 | - Oh, he's got potential then.

04:21:42.280 | - Yes, with a profound, deep picture

04:21:46.760 | of somebody practicing the art of jiu-jitsu, I think.

04:21:50.720 | - I think he's at least a trainee in this art

04:21:54.240 | of the Donahart style of communication.

04:21:57.200 | If Miyamoto Musashi would be alive today,

04:21:59.120 | he would probably be doing these five-page Instagram posts

04:22:01.640 | like you do.

04:22:02.480 | Addiction, writes Tom Hardy,

04:22:05.320 | addiction is difficult and complex stuff to navigate,

04:22:08.320 | as is mental health,

04:22:09.640 | subjects which are both deeply personal for me

04:22:11.960 | and extremely close to my heart.

04:22:13.720 | It is an honor to be able to represent the charity

04:22:15.960 | and my team, RE-ORG, and the great work they do

04:22:18.960 | supporting the mental health and wellbeing

04:22:20.640 | of veterans of service, military and first responders

04:22:23.520 | through the therapeutic benefits of jiu-jitsu

04:22:25.840 | and fitness training.

04:22:26.920 | He represented them in this competition

04:22:29.200 | that he competed in.

04:22:30.240 | Simple training, for me, as a hobby and a private love,

04:22:34.700 | has been fundamentally key to further develop

04:22:37.040 | a deeper sense of inner resilience, calm, and wellbeing.

04:22:40.680 | I can't stress the importance it has had

04:22:43.040 | and the impact of my life and my fellow teammates.

04:22:46.440 | And he goes on to talk about this organization, RE-ORG,

04:22:49.840 | that uses Brazilian jiu-jitsu to form a therapy

04:22:53.960 | to overcome physical and mental challenges,

04:22:55.840 | strengthen social connections,

04:22:57.100 | and improve overall health and wellbeing.

04:22:59.120 | This is for veterans, for people going through PTSD.

04:23:02.780 | They have saved lives around the world

04:23:05.320 | by not only providing an effective and positive means

04:23:07.740 | for navigating and managing

04:23:09.240 | the challenging psychological aspects

04:23:11.000 | of military and first responder careers,

04:23:13.060 | but also has allowed many to find a renewed sense of purpose,

04:23:16.760 | identity, and community that's often lost

04:23:20.280 | when transitioning to civilian life.

04:23:22.740 | Do you have thoughts about that,

04:23:24.020 | sort of the effects of jiu-jitsu on folks

04:23:28.000 | who've gone through some really difficult

04:23:30.160 | things in their life?

04:23:32.640 | - First off, I think that's just a beautiful statement

04:23:35.440 | by Mr. Hardy.

04:23:36.780 | I must give him a phone call after this and talk to him.

04:23:42.640 | That was beautiful to read.

04:23:44.340 | (Luke chuckles)

04:23:47.020 | One thing that's always struck me

04:23:50.260 | when I train people who either have a military background

04:23:55.060 | or on more than a few occasions,

04:23:58.540 | we have special forces soldiers come in

04:24:01.040 | and train with us for a week or two.

04:24:03.620 | And when you talk to them,

04:24:06.400 | the overwhelming sentiment I get

04:24:12.660 | when the conversation's over and we go our separate ways

04:24:15.260 | is I'm always asking myself,

04:24:17.740 | the transition from military life,

04:24:20.380 | especially the more extreme military lives

04:24:22.460 | of special forces soldiers, back to civilian life,

04:24:27.460 | it must be the craziest experience of all.

04:24:32.300 | You've got people who are fighting and dying

04:24:40.420 | alongside their comrades in the most extreme circumstances

04:24:45.420 | that any human being can go through.

04:24:48.660 | And then they're pulled back into a life

04:24:51.140 | where people are arguing with them over parking spots.

04:24:56.140 | Just like the average person's day-to-day life

04:25:00.240 | is so mundane that imagine what must be going

04:25:04.020 | through a man's head who a few weeks or months ago

04:25:08.540 | was literally fighting for his life

04:25:10.460 | and his comrades' lives,

04:25:12.340 | watching people that he loved die

04:25:14.980 | or get mutilated in front of him.

04:25:17.020 | Things that in a matter of seconds,

04:25:21.340 | people's lives can be torn apart and changed forever.

04:25:24.460 | And then suddenly you get thrown into a life

04:25:26.300 | where people are arguing over who's cut who off,

04:25:30.660 | who in line to buy a coffee.

04:25:32.940 | - The intensity of camaraderie and love

04:25:35.260 | that you have for each other.

04:25:36.420 | - And then you go from incredible intensity in war

04:25:40.100 | to just mundane, boring life.

04:25:45.100 | And going from one to the other

04:25:47.740 | where people are yelling at you or nagging you

04:25:51.540 | over issues that just seem so inconsequential

04:25:54.540 | compared to what you've been through.

04:25:56.920 | And you're supposed to take these people seriously

04:25:59.280 | and listen to them.

04:26:00.300 | - But not only that, you do have trauma visions

04:26:05.360 | of dead brothers and sisters.

04:26:09.700 | And you feel like you can't really talk

04:26:12.560 | to these civilians about it.

04:26:14.680 | - There's nothing in their experience

04:26:17.120 | that would enable you to have a conversation with them.

04:26:19.140 | Like they don't even,

04:26:21.320 | how do you talk to your new girlfriend

04:26:24.120 | about watching one of your friend's legs get taken off?

04:26:27.600 | Like there's no conversation you could have with them.

04:26:31.760 | So I find that typically they do best

04:26:36.760 | when they hang out with each other

04:26:40.160 | 'cause they have shared experience

04:26:41.520 | and they can talk about these things.

04:26:43.360 | But I do find that most judice schools

04:26:48.840 | have something like a kind of military barracks

04:26:53.560 | demeanor to them of like camaraderie,

04:26:58.960 | hard work, shared hard work, teamwork,

04:27:03.960 | building towards a goal over time,

04:27:07.720 | the acquisition of skills.

04:27:09.400 | Usually along with that, a kind of,

04:27:12.060 | for want of a better word,

04:27:14.600 | rustic and primitive sense of humor

04:27:16.560 | and a kind of soldierly way of talking to each other

04:27:20.280 | and disparaging, self-deprecating sense of humor.

04:27:24.520 | And it's something that most people

04:27:26.200 | with military service kind of naturally come into

04:27:29.520 | 'cause it's part of what they were in.

04:27:31.040 | And so it's like a toned down version of it

04:27:33.240 | which enables them to form a stepping stone

04:27:37.240 | between the military life that they were in

04:27:42.240 | all the way down to civilian life.

04:27:45.320 | And jiu-jitsu was kind of like a bridge between those two.

04:27:49.360 | - And also the honesty.

04:27:50.400 | So you said like the skill acquisition,

04:27:52.760 | the honesty of really testing that skill.

04:27:55.700 | There is a deep honesty to war in a distant way,

04:28:00.700 | but in a way there's an honesty to jiu-jitsu

04:28:04.360 | of technique working and not.

04:28:06.040 | And there's a final, there is simulated death.

04:28:08.640 | It's not real death, it's simulated death on the mat.

04:28:11.520 | And there's a similar kind of honesty there.

04:28:13.240 | - And there's also a similar kind of esteem towards skill.

04:28:17.640 | Just as regular soldiers look up to special forces soldiers

04:28:20.800 | 'cause they see them as people who have

04:28:24.680 | a greater skill than themselves, something to aspire to.

04:28:26.980 | So too in jiu-jitsu, the thing that we esteem most

04:28:30.540 | on a jiu-jitsu mat is skill.

04:28:32.300 | No one gives a damn what you look like

04:28:34.380 | or what you think, you're judged mostly by your skill level.

04:28:38.500 | And so they tend to identify with that.

04:28:43.380 | I do think that most people from a military background

04:28:48.100 | kind of find a natural gravitation

04:28:50.660 | towards the atmosphere of jiu-jitsu learning.

04:28:54.620 | And if it proves to be a positive way for them

04:28:58.320 | to rehabilitate and come back into civilian life,

04:29:01.240 | then that's a wonderful, wonderful thing.

04:29:03.800 | I know we're linked with We Defy,

04:29:07.840 | which is an organization which caters to former soldiers

04:29:12.840 | who were badly injured in combat,

04:29:16.040 | and many of whom lost limbs and,

04:29:18.840 | or suffered mental trauma.

04:29:22.660 | And they come in and train,

04:29:25.120 | and they often speak very, very highly

04:29:28.080 | of the degree to which jiu-jitsu has helped them

04:29:31.240 | come back into civilian life.

04:29:32.560 | And for them, it's even worse

04:29:33.920 | because they come back not only mentally,

04:29:36.180 | but physically disadvantaged after war.

04:29:40.360 | And I've always been proud to be associated with We Defy.

04:29:45.360 | And I'm very happy to see Tom

04:29:47.840 | working with this organization.

04:29:49.660 | Is this an organization based in England

04:29:51.500 | for English veterans, or is it international?

04:29:54.360 | - That's a good question.

04:29:55.200 | I'd have to look into it.

04:29:56.200 | It certainly is based in England,

04:30:00.320 | but it could be international.

04:30:02.600 | But it's just nice to see somebody

04:30:05.440 | use that large platform for that kind of message.

04:30:08.080 | And also to step on the mat

04:30:11.600 | and show the kind of jiu-jitsu you would probably

04:30:13.720 | be proud of, which is chasing submissions.

04:30:15.780 | You got an arm lock, you got a straight foot lock.

04:30:19.020 | We're not gonna analyze the techniques

04:30:21.520 | 'cause there could be-

04:30:23.000 | - Doesn't matter.

04:30:23.840 | Different perspectives. - It's the intent that counts.

04:30:25.400 | - The finish is the finish.

04:30:27.160 | - Yeah, no, that's impressive.

04:30:29.160 | He's actually quite an athlete.

04:30:30.320 | He's in great shape and strong and flexible.

04:30:35.320 | And I'm glad he's doing well with his jiu-jitsu.

04:30:38.120 | - And it's good to see Henzo's smiling face next to him.

04:30:40.720 | I can only imagine the conversations.

04:30:42.960 | I have to ask you a deep and important question.

04:30:48.440 | You often, when we text back and forth,

04:30:50.580 | send me two hugging emojis.

04:30:52.880 | Can we psychoanalyze the reason

04:30:56.260 | why that's your favorite emoji of the hugging face?

04:31:00.460 | Is that, it's kind of like sending a heart,

04:31:04.180 | but a little bit more gender neutral.

04:31:08.360 | - When jiu-jitsu players meet each other,

04:31:13.380 | they often shake hands and then give a quick hug.

04:31:15.860 | So I thought it was the most appropriate emoji

04:31:18.100 | for jiu-jitsu players.

04:31:19.940 | - I see.

04:31:20.780 | - It's a pretty simple explanation.

04:31:22.340 | Nothing too fraudy in there.

04:31:23.700 | - Are you sure?

04:31:25.220 | - Quite sure.

04:31:26.060 | - Okay.

04:31:26.880 | Have you really asked yourself deeply?

04:31:28.620 | 'Cause you really lean on that emoji.

04:31:30.060 | Is there something behind it?

04:31:31.460 | - Tomorrow I'm never gonna use that emoji again.

04:31:32.420 | - Why is there two of them?

04:31:33.660 | (laughing)

04:31:34.860 | Walk away.

04:31:36.380 | - I'll shock you tomorrow and hit you with three.

04:31:39.300 | - Three.

04:31:40.140 | It's almost always two.

04:31:42.340 | I think maybe you're a creature of habit in communication.

04:31:46.140 | There's a--

04:31:46.980 | - I'm a creature of habit in almost every aspect of my life.

04:31:49.420 | So even emojis.

04:31:51.080 | - Yeah, you fall into these little pockets

04:31:54.420 | of how you communicate,

04:31:55.360 | how you show affection towards others.

04:31:58.260 | I send, I say love a lot.

04:32:00.300 | I send hearts and don't give a fuck if it's too like,

04:32:05.300 | you know, like in a, you know,

04:32:07.380 | me sending a message to like a CEO I'm about to interview,

04:32:10.260 | I'll send a heart.

04:32:11.140 | I don't give a damn.

04:32:12.760 | They'll probably just like, look, what is this?

04:32:15.540 | But I think people are too afraid

04:32:20.540 | of simple communication of affection.

04:32:24.620 | Like it could be in any form,

04:32:28.140 | but there's a hesitance to that

04:32:31.560 | because I think underneath it,

04:32:33.780 | in order to show affection,

04:32:35.900 | you're taking a risk and you're showing vulnerability

04:32:40.360 | because if you show affection

04:32:42.540 | and the other person rejects that affection,

04:32:45.580 | you've now placed yourself in a hierarchy,

04:32:49.340 | going back to lions of like, oh, this person,

04:32:53.260 | you're just like the silly weak person

04:32:55.040 | and they're the strong person.

04:32:56.460 | I think that's how you might see it, I guess,

04:32:58.940 | but I don't.

04:32:59.900 | To me, the display of vulnerability

04:33:02.940 | is a display of strength, not weakness,

04:33:07.940 | at least in human society, at least at this time.

04:33:11.180 | I don't know.

04:33:12.220 | Let me ask you about love.

04:33:13.560 | I must ask John Donahy about love.

04:33:18.420 | What do you think is the role of love

04:33:19.980 | in the human condition at the highest philosophical level,

04:33:23.060 | let me first ask?

04:33:24.200 | What's--

04:33:25.040 | - Like romantic love?

04:33:28.660 | - Romantic love, let's say romantic love.

04:33:30.660 | - I have one or two areas of apparent expertise in my life.

04:33:35.660 | Romantic love, definitely not one of them.

04:33:39.940 | - So like lions versus bears.

04:33:41.980 | - I'm good.

04:33:42.820 | - Animal combat.

04:33:43.640 | - I'm good.

04:33:44.480 | - Pretty good at, and then different grappling arts,

04:33:46.540 | judo, sambo, jiu-jitsu.

04:33:48.460 | - Decent.

04:33:49.820 | - Wrestling, MMA, so fighting and so on.

04:33:53.260 | - Romantic love.

04:33:54.260 | - You don't see them as similar.

04:33:55.580 | It's a kind of fight.

04:33:56.700 | It's a kind of dance.

04:33:59.780 | By the way, do you--

04:34:00.780 | - There's a sense in which I'm kind of glad

04:34:05.820 | I'm not an expert on that.

04:34:07.860 | Imagine what it would be to be an expert on romantic love.

04:34:12.860 | You would take the one thing in life

04:34:14.340 | that's actually interesting and make it boring

04:34:17.180 | because once you develop an expertise about something,

04:34:20.860 | you can start to predict how things are gonna unfold.

04:34:23.300 | You get answers before events even occur.

04:34:26.500 | You see, you can read into the future of everything.

04:34:30.220 | I think there are certain parts of human life

04:34:32.420 | where you want to be a beginner at all times

04:34:34.900 | and you don't wanna gain expertise.

04:34:36.860 | - So excellence and systematizing something

04:34:39.820 | in order to achieve excellence

04:34:40.940 | might destroy the very magic of the thing.

04:34:41.780 | - Yes, yes.

04:34:42.780 | And I think that the magic of romantic love

04:34:45.300 | is the fact that we're all beginners at it.

04:34:47.460 | And the minute you try to gain expertise in it,

04:34:50.540 | what does that even mean?

04:34:51.700 | What would it mean?

04:34:52.700 | And would it be good?

04:34:53.620 | I don't think it would.

04:34:54.460 | I think you're better off just having fun with it

04:34:58.020 | and plowing through and making dumb mistakes

04:35:00.100 | and looking like a fool.

04:35:03.820 | And then whatever success, whatever that means,

04:35:07.860 | comes in a kind of lighthearted, frivolous kind of way.

04:35:10.820 | And that I think is, over the course of a lifetime,

04:35:15.820 | far more desirable than having expertise

04:35:19.580 | and affairs of love.

04:35:21.060 | So I don't think it's even a good thing to study too much.

04:35:24.220 | And I think if you did,

04:35:25.660 | you would actually take something good out of your life.

04:35:29.140 | - Yeah, there's communities of people called pickup artists

04:35:33.140 | that try to optimize this particular aspect,

04:35:36.580 | which is of dating, of guys picking up girls,

04:35:40.260 | and turning that into a system

04:35:41.780 | and seeing what's the most successful.

04:35:43.100 | - Yeah, I think that would be,

04:35:44.660 | I mean, maybe the first few months would be good.

04:35:48.380 | And then after that, I think it would be a disaster.

04:35:50.900 | I mean, given that humans are fairly easy to study

04:35:59.220 | from the standpoint of psychology,

04:36:03.260 | I'm sure it's not that difficult to gain expertise

04:36:06.220 | in things like picking people up,

04:36:08.980 | the same way advertisers can pick up your attention

04:36:11.360 | to sell a product.

04:36:12.200 | You can do the same thing, presumably, with romance and sex.

04:36:16.140 | But I don't know, I feel like if you became very good at it,

04:36:21.140 | you would end up being very disappointed by the results.

04:36:26.820 | And so as I said, I think there's some things in life

04:36:30.460 | where it's better to be a beginner.

04:36:31.500 | - And this is one of those.

04:36:32.980 | Enjoy the chaos, the push and pull of being a beginner,

04:36:36.740 | and make that a lifelong journey.

04:36:38.020 | That's really inspiring to hear you say that.

04:36:40.540 | And there's a deep truth to that.

04:36:42.060 | - That also justifies the fact that I suck at it.

04:36:44.460 | (both laughing)

04:36:46.820 | - I think it also justifies, and it would sell very well,

04:36:49.540 | that John Donner should write a book on dating.

04:36:51.860 | And that would be chapter one, embrace being a beginner.

04:36:55.240 | Chapter two will be bear versus lion.

04:36:57.180 | - Pivot quickly to violence.

04:36:59.900 | - By the way, we totally skipped over anaconda.

04:37:02.240 | - I assumed the implied--

04:37:06.320 | - I'll put it to you this way.

04:37:10.620 | On video, you can watch Puma and similar-sized cats,

04:37:15.620 | jaguar, destroy anacondas.

04:37:23.940 | Even in water, which is anaconda's preferred domain.

04:37:28.500 | So given that Puma and jaguar are several orders below lion,

04:37:33.500 | you have to go with the idea

04:37:36.980 | that lion would utterly decimate anaconda.

04:37:40.300 | So it's probably good that we did skip over it.

04:37:42.820 | - And I think going back to the original thought

04:37:45.740 | that you had about this, don't trust your first instinct.

04:37:49.660 | - Also, think about the other elements.

04:37:51.940 | An anaconda has no ability to disengage from the fight.

04:37:54.860 | Once the fight's on, it's gotta go until the end.

04:37:58.220 | It has no ability to disengage and get away.

04:38:00.460 | Its only hope would be ambush,

04:38:03.780 | and it's got a tiny, tiny chance

04:38:06.700 | against a truly formidable animal.

04:38:10.220 | And the fact that if we look at actual,

04:38:13.300 | concrete, real-world results,

04:38:14.780 | when Puma and jaguar are kicking your ass,

04:38:18.300 | lion and bear, it's gonna be a lot worse.

04:38:21.620 | Science is not to be found on YouTube,

04:38:25.100 | or rather, YouTube is not science.

04:38:26.780 | I bet you there's a bear somewhere in Canada

04:38:30.500 | that has seen some shit.

04:38:32.180 | I'm just gonna leave it at that.

04:38:33.780 | You're a fan of knives.

04:38:37.220 | There's guys like Miyamoto Musashi,

04:38:43.180 | who instead of doing who's number one type of tournaments,

04:38:48.180 | when both competitors walk away,

04:38:50.860 | only one competitor walks away.

04:38:52.680 | Miyamoto Musashi is known for somebody having

04:38:58.340 | John Donaher-like philosophical skills,

04:39:02.060 | but also is known for having fought 61 duels to the death

04:39:07.060 | and won them, obviously. - Incredible.

04:39:11.220 | - What do you think made him so good?

04:39:13.640 | - I don't feel qualified to talk about him

04:39:15.820 | because I haven't made an in-depth study

04:39:17.460 | of his life and times.

04:39:18.660 | And we also don't know how much truth there is

04:39:23.660 | to his recollections,

04:39:26.240 | and there's a lot of controversy over this.

04:39:28.260 | So I don't feel like you can give a definitive statement.

04:39:32.100 | And certainly I can't give a definitive statement

04:39:35.540 | of his prowess, but his writings are fascinating

04:39:40.540 | and deeply insightful.

04:39:42.860 | But as to what actually happened out there in his duels,

04:39:46.180 | it's unclear.

04:39:47.180 | - But there is, with guys like that,

04:39:49.940 | you almost certainly know that they were people

04:39:53.060 | like the character he projects that have existed.

04:39:58.060 | Whether it's 61, whether it's 20,

04:40:00.540 | but people really put their life on the line

04:40:03.460 | in a different time in human history.

04:40:05.700 | Is there something compelling to you

04:40:06.940 | about fighting to the death?

04:40:08.660 | - I think it's not just compelling to me, but to anyone.

04:40:11.580 | I mean, there's nothing we value more than our lives.

04:40:14.980 | And to be able to say, "I'm prepared to die

04:40:18.220 | for a sense of honor,"

04:40:20.740 | things that are so foreign to our modern society.

04:40:23.880 | Imagine, we criticize people for something as simple

04:40:28.460 | as like road rage, and yet you can imagine someone

04:40:32.460 | who has a sufficiently developed sense of honor,

04:40:35.300 | if you took them out of the 17th century

04:40:37.060 | and put them in a modern car,

04:40:38.820 | they might be killing people on the side of the road

04:40:40.500 | on a regular basis, just over smaller stacks of honor.

04:40:44.900 | To say that your sense of self overwhelms

04:40:49.540 | your sense of self-preservation,

04:40:51.740 | it's a very unusual thing in the modern age,

04:40:53.700 | and yet it appears to have been quite common back then.

04:40:57.060 | - You often wear a fanny pack.

04:40:59.300 | I'm not gonna ask you what's inside the fanny pack,

04:41:02.180 | but if you were to design a perfect killing machine

04:41:05.340 | that also wore a fanny pack,

04:41:07.460 | what would you put in that fanny pack?

04:41:12.660 | Would it be something mundane and practical,

04:41:15.700 | or would it be something surprising and hilarious?

04:41:20.700 | Would it be something of philosophical significance,

04:41:25.860 | or maybe sentimental significance,

04:41:28.140 | or would it be empty as a troll on human civilization?

04:41:31.140 | - But if it was a perfect killing machine,

04:41:32.620 | it would have to be some kind of weapon.

04:41:34.620 | - Put in a fanny pack.

04:41:38.620 | - It has to be a very compact weapon.

04:41:41.720 | (inhales)

04:41:43.880 | - We mentioned offline that there's also things

04:41:48.080 | in the chess world where there is a different kind

04:41:51.440 | of vibrating devices that could be used

04:41:53.640 | to communicate information in communication

04:41:58.640 | with the AI systems that can help you

04:42:00.240 | in your particular pursuit.

04:42:01.480 | I don't think in jiu-jitsu you need,

04:42:03.440 | it's possible for a machine to give you information

04:42:06.800 | that gives you advantage.

04:42:08.640 | You can in chess and in poker,

04:42:10.960 | so you could put one of those vibrating devices

04:42:13.020 | in your fanny pack, but in jiu-jitsu it would not help you.

04:42:15.920 | Any idea what kind of weapon?

04:42:20.200 | - To fit in a fanny pack?

04:42:23.280 | - So you're a fan of knives.

04:42:24.400 | Where's the interest in knives come from, by the way?

04:42:26.680 | - That's more metaphorical.

04:42:28.800 | The truth is that in the modern world,

04:42:32.840 | a knife is not an efficient weapon.

04:42:34.840 | Easily be overwhelmed by firearms.

04:42:38.600 | My fascination with knives comes more in the sense

04:42:41.880 | that they convey a spirit to my students

04:42:45.080 | where a knife is made of steel

04:42:50.080 | and steel begins as ore in the ground.

04:42:53.160 | It's an ugly, unfinished product,

04:42:58.160 | which through the enactment of knowledge,

04:43:03.000 | time, and discipline can be transformed

04:43:05.640 | into beautiful, shining steel.

04:43:08.480 | It can have something which,

04:43:09.600 | it begins as something which has no real function

04:43:12.680 | and becomes one of the most functional

04:43:14.160 | and important tools in all of human history,

04:43:16.900 | without which human civilization

04:43:18.920 | could never have even begun.

04:43:20.480 | It's what separated humans and took us

04:43:23.240 | from the bottom of the food chain

04:43:24.880 | and began our gradual rise towards the top

04:43:27.000 | of the food chain.

04:43:28.220 | So it has immense historical and cultural value,

04:43:32.300 | but it has this metaphorical value

04:43:34.040 | insofar as the martial artist begins

04:43:36.760 | as a white belt like iron ore,

04:43:39.200 | but over time transforms into some beautiful,

04:43:42.480 | shining steel which can have immense value.

04:43:46.720 | In addition, there's a sense of maintenance.

04:43:52.320 | As remarkable as steel is,

04:43:54.340 | it is in need of constant maintenance.

04:43:57.880 | It will fall apart through rust

04:44:00.100 | and neglect will destroy a blade,

04:44:02.560 | both in terms of rust and the edge falling apart.

04:44:06.040 | And so just as the martial artist,

04:44:08.440 | it's not good enough just to learn the techniques,

04:44:10.960 | you need to maintain them over time.

04:44:13.560 | And just as steel is perishable,

04:44:15.400 | so too are the skills of martial arts.

04:44:17.760 | And that when I give a gift of a knife to a student,

04:44:21.040 | these metaphorical elements start to emerge.

04:44:23.560 | They see, okay, I began as iron ore

04:44:26.400 | and I wanna become the finished blade.

04:44:28.400 | There's another sense in which

04:44:34.320 | a knife is morally neutral.

04:44:36.960 | A knife can be used to save a life.

04:44:41.520 | It can be used to cook a meal,

04:44:43.100 | but it can also be used for murder

04:44:45.920 | for the worst possible purposes.

04:44:47.720 | Jiu-Jitsu is the same way.

04:44:51.780 | Jiu-Jitsu can make you a better person,

04:44:53.480 | it can make you a worse person.

04:44:54.720 | Jiu-Jitsu is just a power.

04:44:56.160 | It's not a particularly great power, but it is a power.

04:44:59.540 | And like all power, it can be used for both good and bad.

04:45:02.320 | It's morally neutral in itself

04:45:03.920 | and it's up to us to make sure

04:45:05.840 | that just as the knife gets used

04:45:07.960 | for good purposes rather than bad,

04:45:10.240 | so too that Jiu-Jitsu be used

04:45:12.360 | for good purposes rather than bad.

04:45:14.760 | There's also an element where

04:45:16.360 | the basis of the knife is steel.

04:45:20.820 | And historically, there's always been a riddle of steel,

04:45:25.360 | which is steel has the property of both

04:45:31.520 | hardness and suppleness.

04:45:33.680 | The harder you make steel,

04:45:37.700 | the better its edge retention becomes.

04:45:40.760 | The longer that edge will stay sharp.

04:45:43.200 | This is good, but it comes at a price.

04:45:46.360 | The harder you make steel, the more brittle it becomes.

04:45:50.000 | And now that edge can be damaged easily.

04:45:53.600 | So the solution is to make the steel softer, more malleable.

04:46:00.580 | That will prevent breakage of the blade

04:46:02.480 | and chipping of the edge.

04:46:04.980 | But when you make the steel softer, that comes at a price.

04:46:09.120 | And that price is now the edge loses

04:46:11.360 | its sharpness very easily.

04:46:16.040 | And so the riddle of steel is how to work with these two

04:46:21.040 | to the greatest degree possible and create an edge

04:46:25.240 | which is hard enough to stay sharp for long periods of time,

04:46:28.920 | but without making the steel so brittle

04:46:31.760 | that the blade overall is compromised.

04:46:34.800 | So too in jiu-jitsu.

04:46:36.200 | Your task in training is to make the training

04:46:40.960 | competitive enough that you actually get used

04:46:43.640 | to the rigors of real combat.

04:46:46.280 | But on the other hand, it can't be so brutal

04:46:48.980 | that the athletes get broken down in the gym

04:46:51.840 | to a point where they're no longer effective.

04:46:54.240 | And so this duality of hardness and softness,

04:46:58.820 | which we see in the case of blades,

04:47:02.360 | is there in the training of the jiu-jitsu athlete.

04:47:05.680 | So I often give a gift of a knife to a student

04:47:09.400 | when they've done something significant

04:47:11.360 | because it demonstrates in a metaphorical way

04:47:13.720 | these key themes of the sport.

04:47:16.300 | - Well, I've been honored to be a student of yours.

04:47:20.800 | I've been plagued by injury,

04:47:22.580 | but I hope to one day earn one such knife.

04:47:27.320 | And I think that's a really powerful metaphor.

04:47:30.240 | I'm really honored that you would spend any time with me

04:47:33.960 | in any context, but especially on the mat

04:47:37.240 | and especially today in conversation, John,

04:47:39.440 | you're an incredible person.

04:47:40.520 | Thank you for everything you do.

04:47:41.800 | Congratulations for historic accomplishment.

04:47:45.800 | It's always beautiful and inspiring to see greatness.

04:47:48.520 | And what I saw, what we saw at ADCC was greatness,

04:47:53.520 | rare greatness.

04:47:54.880 | And it's beautiful to see that humans can achieve

04:47:56.800 | that kind of thing.

04:47:57.840 | So thank you for making that happen.

04:48:00.740 | And thank you for talking today.

04:48:02.440 | - Thank you, Lex.

04:48:03.380 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

04:48:06.000 | with John Donahuer.

04:48:07.360 | To support this podcast,

04:48:08.840 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

04:48:12.120 | And now let me leave you with some words

04:48:14.320 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

04:48:15.800 | "The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight.

04:48:21.240 | And the only reason a warrior fights is to win."

04:48:26.040 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

04:48:29.400 | (upbeat music)

04:48:31.980 | (upbeat music)

04:48:34.560 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

John Danaher: Grappling, Jiu Jitsu, ADCC, and Animal Combat | Lex Fridman Podcast #328

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