Dr. Duncan French: How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization

00:00:00.000 | - Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:00:02.260 | where we discuss science and science-based tools

00:00:04.900 | for everyday life.

00:00:05.900 | I'm Andrew Huberman,

00:00:10.340 | and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

00:00:13.260 | at Stanford School of Medicine.

00:00:15.180 | Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Duncan French

00:00:18.140 | as my guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

00:00:21.100 | Dr. French is the vice president of performance

00:00:23.560 | at the UFC Performance Institute,

00:00:25.680 | and he has over 20 years of experience

00:00:27.920 | working with elite professional and Olympic athletes.

00:00:31.280 | Prior to joining the UFC,

00:00:32.600 | French was the director of performance science

00:00:34.680 | at the University of Notre Dame,

00:00:36.480 | and he has many, many quality peer-reviewed studies

00:00:39.840 | to his name, exploring, for instance,

00:00:41.880 | how the particular order of exercise,

00:00:44.240 | whether or not one performs endurance exercise

00:00:46.460 | prior to resistance training or vice versa,

00:00:49.320 | how that impacts performance of various movements

00:00:52.440 | and endurance training protocols,

00:00:54.320 | as well as the impact on hormones,

00:00:56.180 | such as testosterone, estrogen,

00:00:58.360 | and some of the stress hormones, such as cortisol.

00:01:00.920 | He's also done fascinating work

00:01:02.700 | exploring how neurotransmitters,

00:01:04.960 | things like dopamine and epinephrine,

00:01:06.920 | also called adrenaline, can impact hormones,

00:01:09.280 | and how hormones can impact neurotransmitter release.

00:01:13.060 | What's particularly unique about Dr. French's work

00:01:15.720 | is that he's figured out specific training protocols

00:01:19.060 | that can maximize, for instance, testosterone output

00:01:22.240 | or reduce stress hormone output

00:01:24.820 | in order to maximize the effects of training

00:01:27.700 | in the short term and in the long term.

00:01:30.640 | So today you're going to learn a lot of protocols,

00:01:32.980 | whether or not you're into resistance training

00:01:34.600 | or endurance training,

00:01:35.840 | you will learn, for instance,

00:01:36.840 | how to regulate the duration of your training

00:01:40.160 | and the type of training that you do

00:01:42.340 | in order to get the maximum benefit

00:01:44.080 | from that training over time.

00:01:46.180 | So whether or not you are somebody

00:01:47.600 | who just exercises recreationally for your health,

00:01:50.800 | whether or not you're an amateur or professional athlete,

00:01:53.640 | or whether or not you're just trying to maximize your health

00:01:56.160 | through the use of endurance and/or resistance training,

00:01:59.480 | today's discussion will have a wealth of takeaways for you.

00:02:02.840 | There are only a handful of people

00:02:04.120 | working at the intersection of elite performance,

00:02:07.460 | mechanistic science, and that can do so in a way

00:02:10.760 | that leads to direct, immediately applicable protocols

00:02:14.240 | that anybody can benefit from.

00:02:16.020 | Dr. French also provides some incredibly important insights

00:02:19.460 | about the direction that sport and exercise

00:02:22.020 | are taking in the world today

00:02:23.760 | and their applications towards performance and health.

00:02:27.200 | Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

00:02:29.180 | that this podcast is separate

00:02:30.680 | from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

00:02:32.960 | It is, however, part of my desire and effort

00:02:35.120 | to bring zero cost to consumer information

00:02:37.160 | about science and science-related tools

00:02:39.380 | to the general public.

00:02:40.880 | In keeping with that theme,

00:02:42.000 | I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

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00:05:42.400 | And now my conversation with Dr. Duncan French.

00:05:45.900 | Duncan French, great to see you again.

00:05:47.960 | - Flightwise, flightwise, thank you.

00:05:49.680 | I don't often have many Stanford professors

00:05:52.200 | in the Performance Institute, so I'm really excited.

00:05:54.840 | - Oh, well, this place is amazing

00:05:56.240 | and you have a huge role in making it what it is.

00:06:00.760 | The reason I'm so excited to talk with you

00:06:02.920 | is that you're one of these rare beasts

00:06:06.640 | that you have been involved in human performance

00:06:09.820 | and athletic performance at the collegiate level.

00:06:13.820 | You are obviously very involved in MMA now

00:06:16.900 | and the UFC Performance Institute.

00:06:18.820 | And you also had the fortunate experience,

00:06:21.820 | I like to think, of doing a PhD in,

00:06:25.000 | what exactly was the PhD in?

00:06:26.820 | - It was exercise physiology. - Exercise physiology.

00:06:28.700 | So you're familiar also with designing studies,

00:06:31.440 | control groups, all the sorts of things that,

00:06:34.260 | in my opinion anyway, are kind of lacking

00:06:36.220 | from the internet social media version of exercise science,

00:06:41.220 | which is that people throw out all sorts of ideas

00:06:43.660 | about how people should be training,

00:06:44.960 | what they should be doing and eating

00:06:46.520 | and not eating and doing.

00:06:48.200 | And certainly science doesn't have all the answers,

00:06:50.640 | but I just think it's so rare to find somebody

00:06:52.740 | that's at the convergence of all those different fields.

00:06:56.920 | And so I have a lot of questions for you today

00:06:58.880 | that I'm sure the audience

00:07:00.280 | are going to be really interested in it.

00:07:01.680 | - Well, listen, I mean, I appreciate that.

00:07:03.440 | It's very humbling.

00:07:04.280 | And yeah, I've worked hard to get to where I am,

00:07:07.280 | but I've always tried to be authentic.

00:07:08.920 | And I think authenticity comes alongside academic rigor

00:07:13.920 | and objectivity and insight and knowledge base, right?

00:07:18.040 | At the end of the day, it's about having confidence,

00:07:20.840 | having expertise and being able to deliver that expertise

00:07:23.560 | to, in my world, to athletes.

00:07:25.560 | And I think that's what I've always tried to do.

00:07:28.720 | I've tried to have many strings to my bow

00:07:31.800 | so that I can talk with many different hats on.

00:07:34.600 | But one day I'm talking to a coach,

00:07:35.960 | the next day I'm talking to an athlete,

00:07:37.160 | the next day I'm talking to a CEO,

00:07:38.780 | the next day I'm talking to an academic professor.

00:07:42.360 | So I think being able to wear those different hats

00:07:45.520 | is certainly a skillset that I've tried to build

00:07:48.400 | throughout my career.

00:07:49.240 | And like I said, I've been blessed to work with,

00:07:51.840 | I think it was 36 different professional or Olympic sports

00:07:55.020 | last time I counted.

00:07:56.720 | So yeah, it's been a wild ride.

00:07:58.880 | It's been great.

00:07:59.720 | - Which of those sports was the most unusual?

00:08:02.600 | - I've worked with crown green bowling,

00:08:05.560 | which I don't know as an American guy,

00:08:07.060 | I don't know how well you know that.

00:08:09.240 | Basically imagine a 20 foot by 20 foot square of turf

00:08:14.240 | with a small raise in the middle, i.e. the crown.

00:08:18.640 | So it slopes to the edges.

00:08:21.160 | And then you throw out a white jack, a smaller ball,

00:08:25.360 | and then you roll out larger balls

00:08:27.920 | to try and get closest to the jack.

00:08:30.000 | It's a very European thing, let's say.

00:08:33.560 | But yeah, sports performance at crown green bowling.

00:08:35.600 | There you go.

00:08:36.440 | - All right.

00:08:37.720 | Wow, and then to a mixed martial arts fighter,

00:08:41.280 | and everything in between.

00:08:42.760 | So along those lines,

00:08:44.520 | could you give us a little bit of your background?

00:08:46.600 | Where'd you start out?

00:08:47.480 | Where are you from originally?

00:08:49.040 | - Yeah, I'm from the Northeast of England.

00:08:51.280 | So I'm from a town called Harrogate, which is in Yorkshire,

00:08:54.160 | which is a Northern kind of area of the UK.

00:08:56.400 | - Nice sunny weather all year long.

00:08:58.720 | - Yeah, you can imagine, yeah,

00:09:00.440 | with the two weeks of summer that we get, you know?

00:09:03.680 | But yeah, I mean, I did my undergraduate studies there

00:09:06.360 | in sports science.

00:09:07.400 | I did teacher training

00:09:08.800 | to be a physical education teacher after that.

00:09:11.400 | Like most people, I then worked as a high school

00:09:14.120 | physical education teacher.

00:09:15.680 | You know, great experience working with kids,

00:09:17.680 | developing athletic qualities,

00:09:21.120 | but something in the back of my mind always,

00:09:23.560 | I wanted more, I wanted to be at the higher end

00:09:26.960 | of elite sport.

00:09:27.920 | You know, I was a failed athlete like many people.

00:09:30.560 | I represented my country in different sports and things,

00:09:33.160 | but I never made it professionally.

00:09:34.960 | So, you know, that little seed was sown in as much

00:09:40.240 | as I then started to reach out to, you know,

00:09:42.640 | to different areas to do a PhD,

00:09:44.800 | whether it was in the UK or also, you know,

00:09:46.920 | chance my arm took a punt,

00:09:48.160 | see if we could get over to the States.

00:09:49.800 | All my buddies were going on, you know,

00:09:51.520 | gap years after they finished university or whatever,

00:09:54.240 | and going to Bali and hanging out or whatever,

00:09:57.000 | traveling through Thailand.

00:09:58.040 | And I figured, well, you know,

00:09:59.520 | I've always loved the States and can I go

00:10:01.360 | and kill two birds with one stone

00:10:02.640 | and do something academic, continue my studies,

00:10:05.280 | but also do it in a different environment

00:10:06.800 | and get some life experience.

00:10:08.600 | And then many, many rejections,

00:10:11.120 | as I'm sure you're kind of aware from different professors,

00:10:14.400 | whether it was Roger Naranoka or, you know,

00:10:16.400 | William Cramer or whatever.

00:10:17.240 | - So you just wrote to these folks?

00:10:18.200 | - I just cold called and sent out information

00:10:21.360 | and said, yeah, so have you got any opportunities?

00:10:24.600 | Pushed back from them all, but you know,

00:10:26.240 | dogged and kept asking.

00:10:28.200 | And yeah, Dr. William Cramer,

00:10:30.280 | who was at Ball State University in Indiana at the time,

00:10:33.520 | you know, a muscle neuroendocrinologist

00:10:36.040 | and researcher in muscle physiology

00:10:38.000 | using resistance training.

00:10:39.360 | You know, he basically said, listen,

00:10:41.600 | I can guarantee your funding

00:10:42.720 | for the first year of your studies, but not the next three.

00:10:44.960 | - Sounds like a typical academic response.

00:10:47.200 | I can take care of you, but not that well necessarily.

00:10:50.280 | - Yeah, so spoke to my parents and said,

00:10:52.560 | hey, can we take a punt?

00:10:54.480 | And they, you know, they were great in supporting me.

00:10:56.280 | And yeah, long story short,

00:10:57.640 | came out to begin my PhD at Ball State.

00:11:00.960 | After a year, Dr. Cramer transferred to Yukon,

00:11:03.640 | you know, Connecticut in stores in the Northeast there.

00:11:06.440 | And I transferred with him.

00:11:08.280 | And yeah, four great years with my PhD

00:11:11.200 | and getting my PhD with a really prolific research group

00:11:15.920 | that looked at, you know, neuroendocrinology,

00:11:18.280 | hormonal work, but using a resistance training

00:11:21.560 | primarily as an exercise stressor as a major mechanism.

00:11:25.280 | And then looking at all the different physiologies

00:11:27.120 | off the back of resistance training.

00:11:28.720 | - Yeah, you guys were enormously productive.

00:11:30.700 | I found dozens of papers

00:11:33.960 | on how weight training impacts hormones

00:11:36.960 | and your name is on all of them.

00:11:39.160 | And it's remarkable.

00:11:41.840 | I have a question about this.

00:11:43.200 | I'll just inject a question

00:11:44.320 | about weight training and hormones.

00:11:46.580 | You hear this all the time that doing these big,

00:11:48.420 | heavy compound movements or resistance training

00:11:50.760 | increases androgens, things like testosterone,

00:11:53.420 | DHT, DHEA, and so forth.

00:11:55.360 | Does anyone know how that actually happens?

00:11:58.740 | Like what about move, what about in,

00:12:01.180 | what is it about engaging motor neurons under heavy loads

00:12:05.120 | sends a signal to the endocrine system,

00:12:07.700 | hey, release testosterone.

00:12:09.640 | I've never actually been able to find that in a textbook.

00:12:12.920 | - Yeah, well, I mean.

00:12:14.220 | - And how can I do more of that?

00:12:15.520 | - Yeah, as much as I know, and again,

00:12:18.420 | I'm digging out into the annals

00:12:19.560 | of Duncan French's kind of brain now.

00:12:21.400 | But yeah, I mean, I think it's a stress response, right?

00:12:23.960 | It's mechanical stress and it's metabolic stress.

00:12:26.140 | And these are, the downstream regulation

00:12:28.560 | of testosterone release at the gonads

00:12:31.360 | comes from many different areas.

00:12:33.320 | My work primarily looked at catecholamines

00:12:38.900 | and sympathetic arousal.

00:12:41.080 | - So things like epinephrine, adrenalin.

00:12:42.620 | - Correct, yeah, epinephrine, adrenalin, noradrenalin,

00:12:47.240 | how they were signaling,

00:12:49.060 | the signaling cascade using the HPA axis,

00:12:52.140 | releasing cortisol, and then looking at how that also

00:12:56.620 | influenced the adrenal medulla to release androgens,

00:13:00.940 | and then signaling that at the gonads.

00:13:02.980 | - That raises an interesting question.

00:13:04.380 | So in presumably weight training in women,

00:13:07.940 | people who don't have testes, also it increases testosterone.

00:13:12.340 | Is that purely through the adrenals?

00:13:14.020 | When women lift weights,

00:13:15.020 | their adrenal glands release testosterone?

00:13:16.740 | - Absolutely, I mean, that is the only area

00:13:18.860 | of testosterone release for females.

00:13:21.400 | And yes, it's the same downstream cascade.

00:13:23.560 | Obviously the extent to which it happens

00:13:25.340 | is significantly less in females,

00:13:27.260 | but that's how you, there's good data out there

00:13:29.580 | that shows females can increase their anabolic environment,

00:13:33.300 | their internal anabolic milieu

00:13:35.460 | using resistance training as a stressor.

00:13:37.460 | And then they get the consequent muscle tissue growth,

00:13:40.840 | whether it's tendon ligament adaptations,

00:13:43.720 | the beneficial consequences of resistance training,

00:13:46.320 | which is driven by anabolic stimuli.

00:13:48.820 | - Yeah, I have two questions about that.

00:13:50.300 | The first one is something that you mentioned,

00:13:51.780 | which is that the androgens,

00:13:54.540 | the testosterone comes from the adrenals

00:13:56.300 | under resistance loads in women.

00:13:58.360 | Is the same true in men?

00:14:00.040 | I mean, we hear that the testes produce testosterone

00:14:02.340 | when we weight train for men that have testes,

00:14:06.300 | but do we know whether or not it's the adrenals

00:14:10.720 | or the testes in men that are increasing testosterone?

00:14:13.160 | More or both, a little bit from each?

00:14:15.060 | - The field is divided presently

00:14:17.940 | and as much as understanding the acute adrenergic response

00:14:22.940 | in terms of anabolic response to exercise in an acute phase

00:14:28.900 | and the exposure to a stimulus that is stress driven,

00:14:33.100 | which might be partly from the adrenal glands,

00:14:35.380 | partly from the gonads,

00:14:36.620 | versus a longitudinal exposure to anabolic environments,

00:14:41.480 | which is primarily driven by obviously the gonads

00:14:44.880 | and the release of the endocrine environment

00:14:46.340 | from testosterone release at the gonads.

00:14:48.780 | So the field is split in terms of how exercise

00:14:51.820 | is promoting hypertrophy, muscle tissue growth,

00:14:55.700 | and whether that is very much an adrenal stimuli

00:15:00.240 | or if that's significant enough in these acute responses

00:15:02.920 | versus the longitudinal exposure,

00:15:04.920 | just elevated basal levels of anabolic testosterone

00:15:09.420 | at a habitual level.

00:15:10.700 | - So it sounds like with most things, it's probably both.

00:15:13.480 | It's probably the adrenals and the gonads.

00:15:15.640 | And then you mentioned that testosterone

00:15:17.820 | can have enhancing effects or growth effects

00:15:20.960 | on tendon and ligament also.

00:15:22.700 | You don't often hear about that.

00:15:24.160 | People always think testosterone muscle,

00:15:26.820 | but testosterone has a lot of effects on other tissues

00:15:30.000 | that are important for performance, it sounds like.

00:15:32.920 | - Yeah.

00:15:33.760 | - Especially in there. - Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:35.120 | I mean, I think the testosterone hormone is,

00:15:39.000 | I mean, listen, there's androgen receptors

00:15:40.600 | on neural tissue, on neural axons.

00:15:42.800 | - Pretty much everywhere.

00:15:43.780 | - Exactly, so the binding capacity of testosterone

00:15:47.100 | and influence in different tissues within the body

00:15:49.640 | are touched on muscle tissue,

00:15:51.480 | but the ligaments, the tendons, even bone to some extent,

00:15:56.180 | testosterone is potential to influence that

00:15:59.440 | in terms of removing osteopenic kind of characteristics,

00:16:02.360 | et cetera.

00:16:03.200 | So yeah, it's a magic hormone, let's say,

00:16:08.200 | with many, many end impacts in terms of adaptation.

00:16:12.560 | - I definitely want to get back to your trajectory,

00:16:15.160 | but as long as we're on the interactions

00:16:17.440 | between androgens, testosterone and its derivatives,

00:16:20.580 | and different tissues,

00:16:22.400 | you know, from the work that you did as a PhD student

00:16:25.000 | and throughout your career,

00:16:27.440 | could you say that there are some general principles

00:16:30.720 | of training that favor testosterone production

00:16:33.500 | in terms of, that somebody who's not an elite athlete

00:16:36.760 | could use, somebody who's already adapted

00:16:38.920 | to weight training somewhat,

00:16:39.940 | like they know the difference between a dumbbell

00:16:42.580 | and a barbell, and they know the various movements,

00:16:44.780 | they're not going to damage themselves,

00:16:46.000 | but once they're doing that, I mean,

00:16:47.940 | I've heard shorter sessions are better than longer sessions,

00:16:50.900 | but in rep loads, now there's a lot of parameter space,

00:16:54.040 | but if you were going to throw out some of the parameters

00:16:57.800 | that you think are most important to pay attention to

00:17:00.400 | for the typical person who's trying to use weight training

00:17:03.240 | to build or maintain muscle, lose body fat,

00:17:07.080 | so body recomposition, and/or stay strong and healthy

00:17:10.740 | for sport of a different kind.

00:17:12.560 | - Yeah, so the work that we obviously,

00:17:14.280 | you know, I was exposed to back in my PhD,

00:17:17.480 | it was a double-edged sword,

00:17:18.800 | and as much as testosterone is really stimulated

00:17:21.100 | by an intensity factor and also a volume factor.

00:17:24.400 | Now, growth hormone is a little bit different.

00:17:26.080 | That's largely driven by an intensity factor alone.

00:17:28.580 | - Oh, really?

00:17:29.420 | - I just saw that growth hormone was driven by volume,

00:17:31.540 | which just goes to show you, no, no, no, no.

00:17:33.700 | I think you're probably right.

00:17:34.540 | It just goes to show you that most of what's out there

00:17:36.520 | on the internet is completely, not only is it wrong,

00:17:40.380 | it's usually backwards, so no, trust.

00:17:42.260 | No, trust your instinct because I think people

00:17:45.580 | just make this stuff up, right?

00:17:47.940 | Because it's very hard to measure growth hormone

00:17:49.940 | and testosterone, and I can't imagine most of the stuff

00:17:54.300 | that I see out there, they're taking drips

00:17:55.960 | and, you know, measuring free versus bound

00:17:58.920 | and all this kind of stuff,

00:17:59.760 | but that's what you do in laboratories.

00:18:01.140 | - Right, yeah.

00:18:01.980 | You look at total composition and you look at how much

00:18:04.140 | of that is free circulating in the system,

00:18:05.900 | how much is bound and therefore biologically active,

00:18:09.020 | bound to receptor creating an adaptation.

00:18:11.960 | But yeah, coming back to testosterone in terms

00:18:14.020 | of the training strategies, it's largely driven

00:18:16.560 | by both an intensity and a volume factor.

00:18:19.200 | So if you look at many of the exercise interventions

00:18:22.600 | that we use to try and investigate

00:18:24.240 | and interrogate testosterone, it was usually,

00:18:28.280 | you know, a six by 10 protocol.

00:18:30.540 | So you're touching-

00:18:31.880 | - Six by 10 meaning?

00:18:33.040 | - Yeah, six sets of 10 repetitions,

00:18:35.440 | which is quite a large, you know, 60 repetitions

00:18:38.340 | is quite a large volume for a single exercise.

00:18:41.420 | And that was usually pitched at about 80% intense

00:18:43.940 | of a one repetition max intensity.

00:18:45.900 | - Okay, so 80% of the one rep max,

00:18:48.460 | six sets of 10 reps separated by rest of like-

00:18:51.620 | - Two minutes.

00:18:52.460 | - Two minutes, which is actually pretty fast,

00:18:54.260 | at least to me.

00:18:55.260 | Anytime you see these two to three minutes,

00:18:56.660 | when you're actually watching the clock,

00:18:58.420 | those two minute rest periods go by pretty fast.

00:19:00.540 | - By the third, fourth set, you're dying for more.

00:19:03.140 | And I think, you know, we formulated

00:19:05.820 | that kind of exercise protocol to really target,

00:19:09.460 | you know, the release of testosterone

00:19:11.300 | and try and drive up these anabolic environments

00:19:13.420 | to study the endocrine, you know, consequences.

00:19:17.380 | But I think that's the type of protocol

00:19:20.260 | that is most advantageous for driving anabolic environment.

00:19:24.460 | - And that was it for the workout?

00:19:26.260 | - Yeah, I mean, we would do that in a back squat.

00:19:28.180 | So, you know, multi-joint, you know,

00:19:30.820 | challenging exercise, multi-muscle, multi-joint,

00:19:34.020 | 80% loads of your one repetition max, and then six by 10.

00:19:38.080 | We did play around with, you know,

00:19:39.300 | your classic German volume type 10 by 10 kind of protocols,

00:19:44.300 | but they were just unsustainable at that 80%.

00:19:47.700 | The key to what we also did was we always adjusted

00:19:51.180 | the loads to make sure that it was 10 repetitions

00:19:54.580 | that were sustained.

00:19:55.700 | So if the load was too high and an athlete or participant

00:20:00.140 | had to drop the weights on the sixth repetition,

00:20:03.300 | we would unload the bar and make sure

00:20:04.780 | they completed the 10 repetitions.

00:20:06.660 | Bringing me back to the point of it's an intensity

00:20:08.940 | and a volume derivative that is going to be

00:20:11.820 | most advantageous for testosterone release.

00:20:13.900 | - That's really interesting.

00:20:14.860 | And one thing that you mentioned there is,

00:20:16.620 | especially interesting to me, which is you said,

00:20:18.300 | when you go from six sets of 10 repetitions

00:20:21.580 | to 10 sets of 10 repetitions,

00:20:24.580 | it's not as beneficial and might even be counterproductive.

00:20:27.520 | But to me, the difference between six and 10 sets

00:20:30.080 | is only four sets.

00:20:30.980 | It doesn't even sound that much.

00:20:32.260 | So that sort of hints at the possibility

00:20:34.220 | that the thresholds for going from a workout

00:20:37.520 | that increases testosterone to a workout

00:20:39.480 | that diminishes testosterone

00:20:41.280 | is actually a pretty narrow margin.

00:20:43.020 | - Yeah, and I think it comes back

00:20:44.500 | to that intensity factor then.

00:20:45.900 | You know, what we saw with that 10 by 10 protocol

00:20:49.060 | really sees pretty significant drop-offs in the load.

00:20:52.100 | And again, we're trying to stimulate with intensity,

00:20:55.340 | with mechanical strain through intensity,

00:20:57.940 | as well as metabolic strain through volume.

00:21:00.180 | And I think that's the paradigm that you've got to look at

00:21:02.760 | is that the mechanical load has to come

00:21:04.940 | from the actual weight on the bar

00:21:08.160 | and the volume is the metabolic stimulus.

00:21:11.220 | How much are we driving lactate?

00:21:12.660 | How much are we driving glycogenolysis

00:21:15.180 | in terms of that type of energy system

00:21:17.340 | for executing a 10 by 10 protocol?

00:21:21.480 | And what we often saw was just a significant reduction

00:21:24.060 | in the intensity capabilities of an athlete to sustain that.

00:21:27.360 | So we shortened the volume

00:21:29.840 | to try and maintain the intensity.

00:21:32.040 | - Interesting.

00:21:32.880 | And you could imagine just taking very long rest,

00:21:36.260 | keeping the session, being a big lazy bear in training.

00:21:39.380 | I sometimes do this.

00:21:40.220 | I tell myself I'm going to work out for 45 minutes

00:21:42.140 | and then two hours later I'm done.

00:21:43.660 | But not because I was huffing and puffing the whole time,

00:21:46.260 | but because I was training really slowly.

00:21:49.140 | Is there any evidence that training slowly

00:21:51.440 | can offset some of the negative effects

00:21:53.280 | of doing a lot of volume?

00:21:54.580 | - Well, it's an old adage of two responses to your question.

00:21:58.400 | I mean, the first one I would say,

00:21:59.900 | there's a difference between 10 sets of six

00:22:01.820 | and six sets of 10.

00:22:03.160 | And I think that comes back to the volume conversation.

00:22:06.860 | Six sets of 10 is driving up metabolic stimulus.

00:22:10.260 | If you're doing 10 sets of six,

00:22:12.980 | you can probably take it to a higher intensity,

00:22:14.580 | but you're not going to get the same metabolic load.

00:22:16.820 | You're not going to get the same internal metabolic

00:22:19.340 | environment that drives the lactate release

00:22:21.340 | that they will then signal further anabolic

00:22:24.180 | testosterone release because of the lactate in your body.

00:22:27.060 | That's a key consideration.

00:22:30.560 | The rest is often the consideration that's overlooked

00:22:35.180 | out there in general population

00:22:36.700 | and in many sporting environments.

00:22:38.300 | The rest is as important a programming variable

00:22:41.580 | as the load and the intensity of the load,

00:22:44.420 | the volume, et cetera.

00:22:45.860 | And yes, if you extend the volume,

00:22:49.660 | if you extend the duration of your rest periods,

00:22:52.780 | what you're ultimately doing is influencing

00:22:54.940 | that metabolic stimulus again.

00:22:56.540 | You're allowing the flushing of the body,

00:22:58.260 | the removal of waste products,

00:23:00.140 | lactate to be removed from the body,

00:23:03.500 | and then the metabolic environment is reduced.

00:23:06.060 | - So you want, so if I understand correctly,

00:23:09.260 | you want to create a metabolic stress.

00:23:11.420 | - Absolutely.

00:23:12.260 | - So the way that I've been training slow and lazy

00:23:15.380 | is not necessarily the best way to go.

00:23:17.820 | I could, in theory, do a 45 or 60 minute session

00:23:21.700 | where I pack in more work per unit time.

00:23:24.820 | I'm not going to be able to quote unquote perform as well.

00:23:27.440 | I won't be able to lift as much.

00:23:29.240 | I'm going to have to unweight the bar between sets

00:23:31.980 | or maybe even during sets if I have someone

00:23:33.660 | who could do that.

00:23:34.860 | But it sounds like that's the way to go.

00:23:36.940 | So it's got to be, so this,

00:23:38.540 | the old adage of high intensity short duration

00:23:40.980 | is probably the way to go.

00:23:42.100 | - Correct.

00:23:42.940 | And you know, in layman's terms, if the same objective,

00:23:46.900 | the same training goal is just muscle tissue growth,

00:23:49.420 | and we're not talking about maximal strength

00:23:51.480 | or any of those type of parameters.

00:23:52.860 | We're just talking about growing muscle.

00:23:54.780 | If there's an athlete A and they do six sets of 10

00:23:57.780 | with two minutes rest, and there's athlete B

00:23:59.720 | that does six sets of 10 with three minutes rest,

00:24:02.300 | athlete A will likely see the highest muscle gain,

00:24:05.400 | muscle hypertrophy gains because of the metabolic stimulus

00:24:08.400 | that they're driving with the shorter rest periods.

00:24:10.420 | - Interesting.

00:24:11.260 | For all the years that I've spent exploring exercise science

00:24:15.680 | and trying to get this information from the internet

00:24:18.060 | and various places that this is the first time

00:24:19.780 | it's ever been told to me clearly.

00:24:22.140 | So basically I need to put my ego aside

00:24:24.880 | and I need to not focus so much on getting as many reps

00:24:28.940 | with a given weight and keep the rest restricted

00:24:32.740 | to about two minutes, get the work in,

00:24:35.340 | and then I'll derive the benefits.

00:24:37.540 | - I mean, you've absolutely nailed it to be honest.

00:24:39.260 | And again, if you think about human nature

00:24:41.100 | and how we approached, we're inherently lazy, right?

00:24:43.460 | As humans, we want to take that rest.

00:24:47.460 | We want to take the time out to recover and feel refreshed,

00:24:50.820 | but we're trying to create a training stimulus.

00:24:53.560 | We're trying to create a very specific stimulus

00:24:55.540 | internal to the body.

00:24:56.820 | And that is often driven by the metabolic environment

00:24:59.780 | at that moment in time.

00:25:00.900 | Now, if we allow the metabolic environment to change

00:25:03.620 | by extending the rest periods,

00:25:05.740 | we're not going to see as beneficial gains at the end of it.

00:25:08.620 | - Very interesting.

00:25:09.460 | It is very much a motivational and ego thing

00:25:12.980 | rather than saying, okay, I'm going to push my loads

00:25:17.180 | as high as I can and really challenge maximal strength,

00:25:19.780 | do fewer repetitions, take longer periods of time.

00:25:22.340 | It's a completely different approach to training.

00:25:24.580 | It's a different end goal.

00:25:25.820 | - Interesting.

00:25:26.660 | And you mentioned lactate.

00:25:27.480 | So it seems still a bit controversial

00:25:30.300 | as to what actually triggers hypertrophy.

00:25:32.100 | You hear about lactate buildup or people that,

00:25:35.100 | the common language is the muscle gets torn

00:25:37.100 | and then repairs, but I don't know,

00:25:38.340 | does the muscle actually tear?

00:25:40.020 | - I mean, microtrauma.

00:25:40.980 | - Okay, microtrauma.

00:25:41.900 | - Disruption of the mic within the muscle tissue.

00:25:45.100 | - Interesting.

00:25:45.940 | And we're talking now about non-drug assisted,

00:25:48.720 | people who's, let's just say, let's define our terms here,

00:25:53.100 | that whose testosterone levels are within the range

00:25:56.560 | of somewhere between 300 and 1,500 or whatever, 1,200,

00:25:59.860 | because it does seem that athletes who take high levels

00:26:04.940 | of exogenous androgens can do more work

00:26:07.920 | and just get protein synthesis from just doing work.

00:26:11.220 | I've seen these guys in the gym, right?

00:26:13.240 | The hotel signs are not that hard to spot

00:26:15.540 | where they're just doing a ton of volume,

00:26:18.000 | not necessarily moving that much weight.

00:26:19.640 | They're just bringing blood into the tissue.

00:26:22.000 | And then they're loading up on,

00:26:24.480 | they're eating a ton of protein,

00:26:25.620 | presumably 'cause they're basically in puberty part 15.

00:26:28.580 | - Right.

00:26:29.420 | - They got in their 15th round of puberty

00:26:31.040 | where during puberty, you are a protein synthesis machine.

00:26:35.520 | I mean, to me, that's pretty clear about puberty.

00:26:39.160 | Interesting.

00:26:40.000 | So, and then in terms of,

00:26:42.800 | because I know the audience likes to try protocol,

00:26:45.820 | so you described a protocol very nicely.

00:26:48.780 | What about day-to-day recovery?

00:26:51.500 | I mean, the workout that you described is intense but short.

00:26:54.380 | How many days a week can the typical person do that

00:26:57.440 | and sustain progress?

00:26:59.260 | - Yeah, I mean, I think that comes back to your training age

00:27:01.460 | and your training history.

00:27:02.320 | Obviously, there's a resilience and a robustness

00:27:04.500 | with an incremental training age.

00:27:06.680 | So, that's not a protocol that I would advise anyone

00:27:09.900 | to go out and start tomorrow.

00:27:12.120 | - They'll be mopping them off the gym floor.

00:27:14.160 | - But at the same time, it's also relative, right?

00:27:16.240 | So 80%, it'd be a maximum at a young training age,

00:27:20.280 | it's still 80% versus, I've been training 10 years,

00:27:23.280 | it's still 80%.

00:27:24.240 | But yes, the mechanical load is gonna be significant.

00:27:27.280 | It's just more tonnage, right?

00:27:28.820 | But yeah, I think a protocol like that,

00:27:31.720 | we would look at two times a week,

00:27:33.960 | something that's pretty intensive like that,

00:27:36.160 | because again, it comes back to the point you make,

00:27:38.020 | is that you really need to be, for want of better terms,

00:27:41.320 | suffering a little bit through that type of protocol,

00:27:43.980 | both in terms of the challenge of the load,

00:27:46.640 | but also being able to tolerate the metabolic stress

00:27:49.960 | that you're exposed to.

00:27:50.920 | It's a bit of a sicko feeling, right?

00:27:54.800 | Because of the lactate that you're driving up.

00:27:56.540 | So, I wouldn't promote an athlete doing that type

00:27:59.880 | of modality multiple, multiple times,

00:28:02.680 | unless you're from the realms of bodybuilding,

00:28:05.440 | and then you really, that's the sole purpose

00:28:07.660 | of what you're trying to achieve.

00:28:08.860 | Most athletes in most sports have diverse requirements

00:28:13.860 | in terms of outcomes that they're trying to achieve.

00:28:16.060 | They're not just targeting muscle growth.

00:28:18.640 | Muscle growth is a conduit to increase strength,

00:28:22.200 | increase power, increase speed, obviously.

00:28:24.960 | So yes, trying to get bigger cross-sectional area

00:28:27.440 | of a muscle means that we can produce more force

00:28:29.500 | into the ground or wherever it may be,

00:28:31.560 | for a locomotive athlete.

00:28:33.160 | But usually sports men and women

00:28:35.400 | are not just purely seeking muscle growth.

00:28:38.340 | They look for different facets of muscle endurance

00:28:42.020 | or maximal muscle power, muscle strength.

00:28:45.080 | So then you've got to be very creative

00:28:46.800 | in how you build the workout.

00:28:48.240 | If it's a bodybuilder, absolutely.

00:28:49.880 | They're chasing muscle growth,

00:28:51.200 | and they're going to do so with these types of protocols,

00:28:53.480 | which sees high intensities and high volumes of workload

00:28:57.600 | on a pretty regular basis.

00:28:59.520 | If it's just somebody, a weekend warrior

00:29:02.960 | that wants to keep in shape and look good,

00:29:04.880 | I would say two times a week

00:29:06.840 | for a really challenging workout like that,

00:29:08.640 | and then flex the other types of workouts within the week

00:29:11.800 | to have more of a volume emphasis,

00:29:13.840 | where you reduce the intensity

00:29:15.240 | and you might just look at larger rep ranges

00:29:17.840 | from 12 to 15 to 20.

00:29:19.720 | Another workout where you're looking at reducing the volume,

00:29:22.860 | but increasing the intensity

00:29:24.240 | and really trying to drive a different stimulus

00:29:27.380 | to give you more end points of success.

00:29:31.140 | - Great, no, that's really informative.

00:29:34.100 | Along the lines of androgens and intensity,

00:29:38.340 | when I think intensity, I think epinephrine, adrenaline.

00:29:41.340 | And since you have a background

00:29:43.400 | in catecholamines and testosterone,

00:29:45.900 | last time I was here at the USC Performance Institute,

00:29:48.560 | we had a brief conversation,

00:29:49.800 | and I want to make sure I got the details right,

00:29:52.100 | that in the short term,

00:29:54.060 | and a big increase in stress hormone

00:29:56.620 | can lead to an increase in testosterone,

00:29:58.640 | like a parachute jump.

00:30:00.480 | But so stress can promote the release of testosterone.

00:30:06.400 | That was news to me.

00:30:08.880 | We always hear about stress suppressing testosterone,

00:30:11.280 | stress suppressing the immune system,

00:30:12.720 | all these terrible things,

00:30:13.760 | but in the short term,

00:30:15.440 | you're saying it can actually increase

00:30:17.240 | the release of testosterone.

00:30:18.780 | So I have that right?

00:30:21.000 | - Correct. - Okay.

00:30:22.160 | And so then the second question is,

00:30:24.680 | does my cognitive interpretation of the stressor

00:30:29.280 | make a difference?

00:30:30.120 | In other words,

00:30:31.100 | if I voluntarily jump out of a plane with a parachute,

00:30:34.140 | does it have a different effect on my testosterone

00:30:37.520 | than if you shove me out of the plane against my will?

00:30:40.120 | Or presumably with a parachute, too.

00:30:42.580 | - I mean, so this was what all my PhD work was looking at,

00:30:46.640 | was the exposure to a stressor

00:30:53.720 | and the pre-arousal

00:30:55.320 | of how your body essentially prepares for that stressor

00:30:57.560 | and then how it manages it

00:30:58.760 | throughout the exposure to the stress.

00:31:00.480 | And it was actually motivated from parachute jumpers.

00:31:03.680 | There was an older study

00:31:05.380 | looking at parachute jumpers into combat.

00:31:08.680 | And then they were studying the cortisol,

00:31:11.600 | the stress response and the epinephrine response

00:31:13.720 | of these parachute jumpers.

00:31:14.840 | So we got us thinking about,

00:31:16.800 | hold on, there's certain workouts that you do

00:31:18.820 | that are just the daunting.

00:31:20.520 | It's like, okay, it's squat Saturday or whatever it may be.

00:31:24.240 | Oh my gosh, this is gonna destroy me.

00:31:27.480 | - Or I have to talk to this person

00:31:28.800 | I don't want to talk to, right?

00:31:31.160 | I mean, or a PhD dissertation exam or something.

00:31:34.960 | - Giving public speaking or whatever it may be.

00:31:36.720 | Now, we used a resistance training protocol

00:31:41.180 | that these athletes knew

00:31:43.280 | was going to be very, very challenging.

00:31:45.120 | It's gonna be that it's gonna have some anxiety to doing it

00:31:48.360 | then knew there were gonna be some physical distress

00:31:50.480 | from doing it.

00:31:51.520 | And therefore, their mindset

00:31:54.320 | of how they were gonna approach that was already set.

00:31:56.720 | So what we saw prior,

00:31:58.400 | 15 minutes prior to the start of an exposure to the workout,

00:32:03.080 | the epinephrine, the neuro adrenaline,

00:32:05.000 | the adrenaline was already starting

00:32:06.400 | to prepare the body sympathetically

00:32:09.060 | to go into what it knew was going to be

00:32:10.980 | a very, very challenging workout.

00:32:13.040 | So that brings you back to exercise preparation,

00:32:16.520 | competition for certain preparation,

00:32:18.960 | preparation for certain competition, excuse me,

00:32:22.040 | pre-workout routines, the use of music,

00:32:26.200 | all these different things that we know can now,

00:32:29.880 | anecdotally in the gym we put into place,

00:32:32.160 | but the data that I presented showed that

00:32:35.220 | it was the first of its kind to show that this link

00:32:37.480 | between epinephrine and norepinephrine release

00:32:41.560 | and arousal and then consequent performance.

00:32:44.100 | So force output throughout the workout

00:32:46.900 | was intimately linked.

00:32:47.940 | - So what was the takeaway there?

00:32:50.260 | Is it beneficial for people to get a little stressed

00:32:53.600 | about the upcoming impending event,

00:32:55.820 | whether or not it's a lift in the gym

00:32:57.840 | or whether or not it's talking to somebody

00:32:59.980 | that you might be intimidated to talk to or an exam?

00:33:04.560 | Is the stress good for performance or is it harmful?

00:33:07.820 | - Yeah, and I think that's a great question.

00:33:09.840 | And I think I can only talk to physical exertion,

00:33:13.240 | which is what we were exploring.

00:33:15.620 | And I don't want to tread on the toes of the psychologists

00:33:18.660 | with flow state and these types of things,

00:33:20.400 | because clearly-

00:33:21.240 | - I think you're in the position of scientific strength

00:33:24.000 | on this one, I think you have the leverage.

00:33:25.680 | I mean, I have a lot of friends in that community,

00:33:28.640 | as I'll just say, as a buffer

00:33:30.320 | to the answer you're about to give,

00:33:32.360 | that there's very little science around flow

00:33:36.920 | and there's very little neuroscience

00:33:38.380 | related to most psychological states anyway.

00:33:40.460 | So I think we've got a lot of degrees of freedom here.

00:33:42.480 | - All right, I can breathe easy, thank you for that.

00:33:44.680 | - I'll be anything you like, credit Duncan,

00:33:47.920 | anything you dislike, send the mean comments to me.

00:33:52.120 | - Yeah, I think from my data,

00:33:54.000 | certainly the greater the arousal,

00:33:56.180 | the higher the performance was

00:33:57.680 | from a physical exertion perspective.

00:34:00.080 | And I think that was the intriguing part

00:34:01.960 | of some of my findings,

00:34:02.920 | where there's definitely an individual biokinetics

00:34:05.840 | to some of these hormonal kind of releases.

00:34:08.840 | And as much as those guys that had the highest

00:34:12.960 | adrenergic response in terms of epinephrine release,

00:34:15.360 | norepinephrine release, also sustained force output

00:34:19.320 | for a longer period of the workout than those that didn't.

00:34:23.540 | So the individuals that had a lower stimulus

00:34:27.960 | of the sympathetic arousal, let's say,

00:34:30.380 | certainly didn't perform as well throughout the workout.

00:34:32.820 | Now, the intriguing thing then becomes is, okay,

00:34:35.820 | and I think this really segues into what we're doing here

00:34:40.160 | with combat athletes, with mixed martial artists.

00:34:43.100 | You know, there's a philosophy, there's a paradigm now

00:34:45.380 | for myself in terms of the exposure, repeat exposure.

00:34:48.600 | The more you do that challenging workout,

00:34:50.760 | do you get the same psychological stimulus?

00:34:53.980 | Do you still get the same stress response?

00:34:56.060 | And the assumption is unlikely.

00:34:58.620 | You know, you accommodate, you become accustomed

00:35:00.700 | to the stressor, your body will therefore adapt.

00:35:03.200 | And that's the classic overload principle, right?

00:35:05.700 | You then need to take the stressor down a different route.

00:35:08.240 | But I think when you look at the athletes

00:35:11.960 | that we work with here, it's a fist fight

00:35:15.020 | at the end of the day.

00:35:16.060 | There's nothing more stressful than that.

00:35:17.660 | But I think just the exposure to the rigors of training,

00:35:20.940 | to understand the bad positions, the bad situations,

00:35:24.720 | to know that they can get out of certain situations,

00:35:27.100 | out of certain submission holds or whatever it may be,

00:35:31.040 | I think that really ties in with some of my PhD work

00:35:34.180 | in terms of what these guys do to approach

00:35:36.620 | what is a really challenging sport

00:35:38.700 | and arena in mixed martial arts.

00:35:40.060 | - Yeah, it's definitely the extreme of what's possible

00:35:43.460 | in terms of asking does stress favor or hinder performance?

00:35:48.020 | Because yeah, like you said, at the end of the day,

00:35:49.920 | it's someone trying to hurt you as much as they possibly can

00:35:53.900 | within the bounds of the rules

00:35:55.040 | and you're trying to do the same.

00:35:56.540 | So that's, I find that your thesis work fascinating.

00:36:00.580 | Where you never to be at the UFC Performance Institute,

00:36:04.540 | luckily they made the right choice and brought you here.

00:36:07.680 | But where you have never to come here,

00:36:09.460 | I was still fascinated by this because over and over,

00:36:13.260 | we hear that stress is bad, stress is bad, stress is bad.

00:36:16.500 | But everything I read from the scientific literature

00:36:18.820 | is that stress and epinephrine in particular

00:36:22.760 | is coupled to the testosterone response

00:36:24.860 | to performance and to adaptation,

00:36:27.100 | provided it doesn't go on too long.

00:36:29.900 | So unless I'm saying something that violates that,

00:36:33.100 | I mean, that's your work.

00:36:34.420 | So it's a really important and beautiful work

00:36:37.380 | and I refer to it often.

00:36:39.000 | So I'm just glad that we could bolt that down

00:36:42.660 | because I think the people need to know this,

00:36:45.340 | that that discomfort is beneficial.

00:36:48.380 | Now there's another side to this that I want to ask about,

00:36:51.900 | which is the use of cold in particular,

00:36:56.580 | things like ice baths, cold showers,

00:36:58.540 | or any other type of cold temperature exposure.

00:37:03.540 | In theory, that's stress also, it's epinephrine.

00:37:08.580 | And so how should one think about

00:37:11.660 | the use of cold for recovery?

00:37:14.340 | So if it's stress, if cold causes stress,

00:37:18.720 | then how is cold used for recovery?

00:37:21.820 | That's what I don't understand.

00:37:23.140 | And maybe you just want to share your thoughts on that.

00:37:25.940 | - Yeah, no, and I think it's a great question.

00:37:28.980 | And I think the jury is still out there, certainly,

00:37:32.220 | knowing some of the conversations that we've been having.

00:37:34.420 | But I think when we talk about stress,

00:37:36.220 | it's your classic fight, flight, or freeze approach.

00:37:40.180 | And throwing your body into a cold tub,

00:37:43.700 | an ice bath or whatever it may be,

00:37:46.140 | certainly is going to have a physiological stress response.

00:37:49.360 | Now, people are using that for different end goals.

00:37:52.980 | And again, I think that's where the narrative

00:37:54.820 | has to be explained.

00:37:56.820 | If you are using that stress specifically

00:37:59.260 | to manage the mindset,

00:38:02.020 | to use it as a specific stress stimulus,

00:38:04.820 | that's the same as me doing six by 10, 80%.

00:38:08.100 | You're just trying to find something to disrupt the system

00:38:11.200 | to do something that's very, if you want a better term,

00:38:14.620 | painful, discomfort, whatever.

00:38:17.620 | You're just finding a stressor

00:38:19.100 | and then being able to manage the mindset.

00:38:21.380 | But if you're using cold,

00:38:23.500 | specifically from a physiological perspective,

00:38:25.980 | to promote redistribution of vascular,

00:38:30.980 | of blood's flow to different vascular areas of muscle

00:38:35.140 | that you feel have gone through a workout,

00:38:36.820 | that are damaged or whatever it may be,

00:38:38.620 | I think we've got to understand

00:38:40.740 | what that stress mechanism is.

00:38:43.460 | And the data, the literature is certainly still out there

00:38:46.940 | with respect to cryotherapy and cold baths

00:38:50.000 | and some of these high, these cold exposures

00:38:54.220 | in terms of what they do at the level of the muscle tissue.

00:38:57.300 | If that's the target,

00:38:58.820 | if you're trying to promote a flushing mechanism

00:39:02.060 | or you're trying to promote redistribution of the blood flow,

00:39:05.420 | what you've got to understand is that cold

00:39:07.060 | is going to clamp down every part of the vascular system.

00:39:10.420 | And we've really got to understand

00:39:12.500 | how the muscle would be redistributed

00:39:15.980 | to areas of interest.

00:39:17.220 | So, I think the stress response is a real thing

00:39:22.120 | with respect to cold exposure.

00:39:25.300 | But I think the narrative around

00:39:27.280 | what are you using the cold for

00:39:28.840 | has to precede the conversation.

00:39:30.880 | Because yes, it's like putting your hand over a hot cold.

00:39:35.680 | That's a stress the same way as jumping in a cold bath is.

00:39:39.900 | - No, I think most people don't realize that.

00:39:41.340 | You're going to get the epinephrine release

00:39:42.760 | from holding your hand too close to the flame

00:39:45.360 | and you're going to get it from getting in the ice bath.

00:39:47.040 | - Your body doesn't know the difference, right?

00:39:48.800 | Your body does not know the difference.

00:39:50.440 | It has a primordial kind of physiological response

00:39:55.440 | that it's created over millions and millions of years.

00:39:58.800 | And I think that physiology is not changing

00:40:03.000 | and it's fixed in a particular way right now

00:40:05.440 | that it doesn't understand the difference

00:40:07.960 | between whether it's six by 10

00:40:09.480 | doing a challenging workout over here,

00:40:11.140 | whether it's putting my hands on the hot cold,

00:40:13.000 | whether it's a lion stood in front of me or whatever.

00:40:14.920 | That epinephrine response from the level of the brain

00:40:18.200 | down to the whole signaling cascade is the same.

00:40:21.700 | - And cold I've heard can actually prevent

00:40:24.840 | some of the beneficial effects of training

00:40:27.960 | that it can actually get in the way

00:40:30.360 | of muscle growth, et cetera.

00:40:33.040 | - Yeah, there's some pretty robust data out there now

00:40:35.740 | showing that it definitely has an influence

00:40:37.780 | on performance variables like strength and power

00:40:39.960 | in particular, but absolutely

00:40:41.960 | in terms of muscle hypertrophy.

00:40:43.600 | And there's a big kind of theme

00:40:45.640 | in the world of athletic performance right now

00:40:48.360 | in terms of periodization of cold exposure

00:40:52.500 | as a recovery modality.

00:40:54.640 | When do you use cold?

00:40:56.540 | Should you be using cold for recovery

00:40:59.720 | in periods of high training load

00:41:01.320 | when you're actually pursuing

00:41:02.720 | maybe general proprietary work

00:41:05.080 | where you're actually trying to pursue muscle growth?

00:41:06.920 | Well, that's usually where you get the most sore.

00:41:09.600 | It's usually where you feel the most fatigued,

00:41:12.800 | but it's probably not the most beneficial approach

00:41:14.960 | to use an ice bath in that scenario

00:41:17.300 | because you're dampening,

00:41:18.480 | you're dulling the mTOR pathway

00:41:20.980 | and the hypertrophic signaling pathway.

00:41:25.040 | Whereas in a competition phase

00:41:27.120 | where actually quality of exercise

00:41:29.560 | and quality of execution of skill and technical work

00:41:32.720 | has to be maintained,

00:41:34.600 | you want to throw the kitchen sink of recovery capabilities

00:41:38.220 | and recovery interventions in that scenario

00:41:40.040 | because you now, the muscle building activity

00:41:43.680 | should be in the bank.

00:41:44.520 | That should have been done in the general preparatory work.

00:41:47.440 | And now you're focusing on technical execution.

00:41:50.640 | So you're absolutely right.

00:41:52.380 | - No, it's interesting.

00:41:53.220 | So if I understand correctly,

00:41:55.680 | if I want to maximize muscle growth or power

00:41:59.840 | or improvements and adaptations,

00:42:02.980 | then the inflammation response,

00:42:04.580 | the delayed onset muscle soreness,

00:42:06.140 | all this stuff that's uncomfortable

00:42:08.320 | and that we hear is so terrible

00:42:09.360 | is actually the stimulus for adaptation.

00:42:11.920 | And so using cold in that situation

00:42:14.500 | might short circuit my progress.

00:42:16.680 | But if I'm, you know, I don't know that I'll ever do this,

00:42:19.640 | but if I were to do an Ironman or something

00:42:22.180 | or run a marathon under those conditions,

00:42:24.520 | I'm basically coming to the race, so to speak,

00:42:27.960 | with all the power and strength I'm going to have.

00:42:30.660 | And so there, reducing inflammation is good

00:42:32.660 | because it's going to allow me

00:42:33.600 | to perform more work, essentially.

00:42:35.860 | - Absolutely.

00:42:36.700 | Yeah, you have to be strategic

00:42:38.480 | about when you use some of these interventions.

00:42:40.820 | And, you know, the time when you're preparing

00:42:43.200 | for a competition is not the appropriate time, excuse me,

00:42:46.440 | is the appropriate time when you want to drive recovery

00:42:48.680 | and make sure that your body is optimized.

00:42:51.440 | You know, when you're far away from a competition,

00:42:55.280 | you know, date or, you know, out of season

00:42:57.880 | or whatever it may be,

00:42:58.720 | and you're really trying to just tear up the body

00:43:01.320 | a little bit to allow it to, it's natural, you know,

00:43:04.780 | healing and adaptation processes to take place.

00:43:07.520 | Well, you don't want to negate that.

00:43:08.840 | You know, you want the body to optimize

00:43:10.840 | its internal recovery,

00:43:11.960 | and that's how muscle growth is going to happen, so.

00:43:14.000 | - So interesting.

00:43:15.000 | - There's a time kind of consideration

00:43:17.400 | that you need to make with these interventions, for sure.

00:43:19.360 | - At the UFC Performance Center,

00:43:21.200 | are the fighters periodizing their cold exposure

00:43:24.040 | or are they just doing cold at will?

00:43:28.040 | - Well, it's not just the UFC.

00:43:29.600 | And again, I talk about my personal experiences

00:43:32.520 | with different sports.

00:43:33.360 | I think just education around where science is at,

00:43:37.160 | and our understanding of concepts

00:43:39.720 | like the use of cold exposure for recovery, ice bath.

00:43:42.760 | You know, everyone wants to jump in an ice bath.

00:43:44.840 | But I think as we've stepped back

00:43:46.960 | and scientists have started to say,

00:43:49.080 | have started to figure out and look at some of the data,

00:43:51.800 | you know, we're now more intuitive about,

00:43:54.320 | well, actually that might not be the best

00:43:56.240 | or the most optimal approach.

00:43:57.540 | And I think that's any given sport.

00:43:59.700 | So yes, certainly here at the UFC,

00:44:01.760 | we're trying to educate our athletes

00:44:03.840 | around, you know, appropriate timing.

00:44:06.140 | And it's the same with nutrition.

00:44:07.520 | It's the same with an ice bath intervention.

00:44:09.640 | It's the same with lifting weights.

00:44:11.260 | It's the same with going for a run

00:44:12.520 | or working out on the bike.

00:44:13.560 | You know, there's tactics to when you do things

00:44:17.420 | and when you don't do things.

00:44:18.340 | And I think, you know, stress and cold exposure,

00:44:22.360 | we have to have a consideration around that as well.

00:44:24.480 | But it's not just, you know, MMA fighters.

00:44:26.360 | That's any athlete.

00:44:27.860 | And I think it's the best professionals,

00:44:32.160 | the most successful professionals do that really well.

00:44:35.280 | They listen, number one.

00:44:36.980 | They educate themselves and then they build structure.

00:44:40.300 | And I think, you know, at the most elite level,

00:44:42.780 | we always talk about it here at the UFC,

00:44:44.700 | but the most elite level,

00:44:46.220 | you're not necessarily training harder than anybody else.

00:44:49.120 | Everybody in the UFC trains hard.

00:44:51.760 | Like everyone is training super hard.

00:44:54.240 | But the best athletes, the true elite levels

00:44:57.240 | are the ones that can do it again and again and again

00:44:59.560 | on a daily basis and sustain a technical output

00:45:02.520 | for skill development.

00:45:03.680 | Therefore their skills can improve

00:45:05.160 | or physical development,

00:45:06.160 | their physical attributes can improve.

00:45:08.240 | So that ability to reproduce on a day-to-day basis

00:45:11.480 | falls into a recovery conversation.

00:45:14.560 | Now, when is the right time to use

00:45:16.200 | something like an ice bath and when isn't

00:45:17.800 | is part of the high-performance conversation for sure.

00:45:21.640 | - So really they're scientists.

00:45:23.080 | They're building structure.

00:45:24.040 | They're figuring out variables.

00:45:25.720 | But it sounds like the ability to do more quality work

00:45:29.680 | over time is one of the key variables.

00:45:31.640 | - I mean, it's fundamental.

00:45:33.000 | I mean, garbage in, garbage out, quality in, quality out.

00:45:37.080 | But in our sport, I talk about mixed martial arts,

00:45:41.200 | it's truly a decathlon of combat.

00:45:43.360 | So there's so many different attributes,

00:45:45.040 | whether it's a grappling, whether it's a wrestling,

00:45:46.900 | whether it's a transition work,

00:45:48.160 | whether it's a standup striking.

00:45:49.740 | So the different facets of a training program in this sport

00:45:53.900 | are significantly large compared to something like

00:45:57.560 | a wide receiver in football.

00:46:00.120 | And that's no disrespect for wide receivers,

00:46:01.760 | but they run routes.

00:46:02.800 | They're gonna run a route, a passing tree,

00:46:06.200 | and that's all they need to do.

00:46:07.360 | These guys have to be on the ground.

00:46:08.800 | They gotta be great on the ground.

00:46:09.680 | They gotta be great standing up.

00:46:10.760 | They gotta be great with the back against the fence.

00:46:13.420 | There's so many different kind of facets to our sport.

00:46:16.000 | So managing the distribution of all the training components

00:46:19.840 | is one of the biggest challenges of mixed martial arts.

00:46:22.480 | And the best guys get that right.

00:46:24.820 | They allow their body to optimize the training.

00:46:28.560 | And remember, why are we doing training?

00:46:30.320 | We're doing training for technical and tactical improvement.

00:46:34.780 | Now, if your body is fatigued

00:46:37.120 | or you just can't expose yourself

00:46:39.180 | to more tactical development or technical development,

00:46:42.600 | then you're essentially doing yourself a disservice.

00:46:45.660 | You're gonna be behind the curve

00:46:47.380 | with respect to those guys

00:46:48.400 | that can reproduce that day in, day out.

00:46:50.720 | - On the topic of skill development, regardless of sport,

00:46:55.160 | we hear all the time, and it certainly is intuitive to me,

00:47:00.120 | that the person who can focus the best

00:47:02.900 | will progress the fastest.

00:47:05.260 | But it's kind of interesting.

00:47:06.100 | Sometimes I talk to athletes

00:47:07.400 | and they seem a little bit laid back

00:47:12.260 | about their training sometimes,

00:47:14.200 | and yet they obviously know how to flip the switch

00:47:16.800 | and they can really dial in the intensity.

00:47:19.480 | Do you think that there are optimal protocols

00:47:21.560 | for skill learning in terms of physical skill learning?

00:47:24.660 | Like, could it ever be parameterized

00:47:26.400 | like the six sets of 10 reps?

00:47:30.040 | And this gets to the heart of neuroplasticity,

00:47:31.680 | which is still, it's not a black box,

00:47:34.180 | but it's kind of a black box

00:47:36.120 | with portions of it illuminated, I like to say.

00:47:39.500 | But what are your thoughts on skill development?

00:47:41.360 | Is there, for somebody that wants to get better at sport,

00:47:44.780 | do you recommend a particularly long

00:47:48.480 | or short training session?

00:47:50.200 | It does intensity matter, or is it just reps?

00:47:53.780 | - Yeah, I think, no, it's not a volume-driven exercise.

00:47:58.280 | It's a quality-driven exercise.

00:48:00.120 | And listen, my expertise is not in motor learning

00:48:02.720 | and motor skill acquisition.

00:48:04.760 | I tend to default to Dr. Gabrielle Wolf here

00:48:07.760 | at UNLV for that.

00:48:10.400 | She's one of the leading proponents in this area.

00:48:12.420 | But if you look at true skill development,

00:48:17.120 | it is about rehearsal of accurate movement,

00:48:21.380 | accurate movement mechanics.

00:48:23.100 | And as soon as that becomes impacted by fatigue

00:48:27.680 | or inaccurate movement,

00:48:29.360 | you're now losing the motor learning.

00:48:32.520 | You're losing the accuracy of the skill

00:48:34.440 | that people can call it muscle memory

00:48:36.140 | or whatever they want, right?

00:48:37.120 | But essentially, you're grooving neural axons

00:48:40.360 | to create movement patterns,

00:48:42.200 | and they're situational throughout sport, right?

00:48:44.800 | You know, whether it's a cruyff turn in soccer

00:48:46.640 | or a jump shot in basketball or a forehand down the line,

00:48:49.680 | you can carve out that particular posture

00:48:52.800 | and position and skill, and you can isolate it,

00:48:55.420 | and you can drill it again and again and again.

00:48:57.520 | Now, as soon as fatigue is influencing that repetition,

00:49:02.000 | it's time to stop.

00:49:03.940 | And the best coaches understand that.

00:49:05.740 | They understand that it's quality over quantity

00:49:08.360 | when it comes to skill acquisition.

00:49:10.280 | So to answer your question in a roundabout way,

00:49:12.640 | I would say, yes, it's shorter sessions

00:49:15.880 | that are very high quality.

00:49:17.820 | And I think the best athletes, in my experience,

00:49:20.820 | are the ones that consciously and cognitively

00:49:24.560 | are aware of it at every moment of the training session.

00:49:28.080 | They should leave the training session

00:49:30.040 | not necessarily just physically fatigued,

00:49:31.840 | but mentally fatigued because they're completely engaged

00:49:34.440 | in the learning process.

00:49:36.740 | The problem then becomes, okay,

00:49:39.240 | if we just do lots of 30 minute sessions,

00:49:42.480 | we've gotta do a lot of 30 minute sessions

00:49:44.440 | to get the volume exposure of the repetition

00:49:47.760 | and the rehearsal of the skill again and again and again.

00:49:50.640 | So it's a bit of a paradox.

00:49:51.680 | It's a bit of a double-edged sword.

00:49:53.580 | But a three hour session versus a 90 minute session,

00:49:57.260 | we'll take the 90 minute session any day

00:49:59.880 | when it comes to skill acquisition

00:50:01.400 | because that's gonna be driven by quality over quantity.

00:50:04.400 | - Yeah, training and skill learning

00:50:06.420 | is incredibly mentally fatiguing.

00:50:09.700 | I've often wondered why when one works out hard,

00:50:13.000 | whether or not it's with a run or with the weights,

00:50:15.640 | why it's hard to think later in the day.

00:50:17.900 | - Right.

00:50:18.740 | - Yeah, there really does seem to be something to it.

00:50:21.460 | And I've wondered, is it depletion of adrenaline, dopamine?

00:50:26.440 | I sometimes think it might be dopamine.

00:50:28.440 | And here I'm totally speculating.

00:50:29.880 | I don't have any data to support this.

00:50:31.300 | But if you hit a really hard workout or run early in the day

00:50:35.880 | oftentimes the brain just doesn't want

00:50:38.320 | to do hard mental work,

00:50:39.860 | which gives me great admiration for these athletes

00:50:41.980 | that are drilling their mind and body all day every day

00:50:45.160 | with breaks.

00:50:47.120 | But so what are your thoughts?

00:50:48.480 | What leads to the mental fatigue after physical performance?

00:50:53.220 | - Well, again, I don't want to talk out.

00:50:54.760 | You know, I'm talking to the man here, you know, this-

00:50:56.860 | - Well, we're just two scientists speculating on this point.

00:50:59.820 | Up until now, you've been giving us

00:51:01.840 | concrete peer-reviewed study-based feedback on my questions.

00:51:06.300 | But if we were to speculate,

00:51:07.780 | I mean, I think this is a common occurrence.

00:51:09.040 | People think if I get that really good workout

00:51:10.940 | in in the morning, I feel better all day.

00:51:12.780 | That's true, unless that workout is really intense

00:51:16.380 | or really long.

00:51:17.580 | And then you just, the mind just somehow

00:51:20.780 | won't latch on to mental work quite as well.

00:51:25.100 | - I mean, just philosophically,

00:51:27.460 | you know, I think there's a,

00:51:29.780 | coming back to this kind of stress consideration,

00:51:31.960 | you know, like a public speaking or taking an exam.

00:51:34.340 | I mean, if you have an amazing coach

00:51:37.620 | who is setting up training in a particular way,

00:51:39.520 | it's challenging.

00:51:40.620 | There's a strain related to it.

00:51:42.220 | And I'm not talking physical strain.

00:51:43.440 | I'm talking figuring things out, you know,

00:51:45.900 | figuring out the skill.

00:51:47.460 | And I think that can be stressful.

00:51:49.180 | Like the learning process can be stressful.

00:51:51.420 | So, you know, we've touched on stress.

00:51:53.820 | I also think if they hit the right technique,

00:51:58.240 | you know, that reward center in the brain,

00:52:00.060 | that dopamine shot is gonna fly up there.

00:52:03.020 | And there's only so many times that we can get that

00:52:05.540 | before that becomes dampened.

00:52:07.380 | And I think there's an energetic piece to it.

00:52:09.300 | You know, there's the fueling of the brain.

00:52:11.620 | There's the carbohydrate fueling exercise

00:52:15.140 | that actually the strategy around how you fuel for learning

00:52:19.540 | and fuel for physical training is actually pretty similar.

00:52:23.300 | - Glucose.

00:52:24.140 | - Yeah, it's glucose.

00:52:25.340 | It's sugar at the end of the day, right?

00:52:27.420 | So, you know, are you fueling accordingly

00:52:30.260 | around your training sessions?

00:52:31.580 | Be that very physical 'cause everyone thinks,

00:52:33.620 | okay, you know, I'm gonna jump on a treadmill

00:52:35.740 | and I'm gonna bang out, you know, 15 sprints at max effort.

00:52:40.060 | And I'm gonna be dropping off

00:52:41.940 | and lying on the floor at the end of it.

00:52:43.340 | I need to refuel.

00:52:44.660 | - Well, what about the refueling of the brain

00:52:47.140 | in a very demanding exercise or drilling session

00:52:51.340 | where you're looking at technique

00:52:52.700 | that you're trying to figure out

00:52:54.020 | that's very challenging for your mind

00:52:55.580 | to figure out the complexity of it,

00:52:57.780 | but still needs to be fueled or refueled afterwards.

00:53:00.900 | And I think that's obviously, you know,

00:53:02.820 | might be an area where athletes do themselves a disservice

00:53:05.740 | by not appropriately fueling

00:53:07.380 | from what might be considered to be

00:53:08.740 | a lower intensity session,

00:53:10.940 | but the cognitive challenge has been significantly high.

00:53:15.300 | - So they're doing skill work or drill work

00:53:17.420 | and it's taxing the brain.

00:53:19.380 | And they're thinking, oh, you know,

00:53:21.060 | I wasn't, you know, pushing hard lifts or doing sprints.

00:53:24.240 | And so I can just go off the rest of my day,

00:53:26.780 | but then their mind is drifting.

00:53:29.220 | - Yeah, I mean, I speculate.

00:53:30.940 | - Yeah, that seems very reasonable.

00:53:32.940 | I mean, I know that I'm here

00:53:34.580 | and presumably with the other athletes you've worked with,

00:53:36.660 | nutrition is a huge aspect of that.

00:53:40.340 | And I think the general public can learn a lot

00:53:42.300 | from athletic nutrition because at the end of the day,

00:53:45.620 | the general public is trying to attend to their kids,

00:53:47.980 | attend to their work, whether or not they're lawyers

00:53:49.720 | or whatever, they need to focus.

00:53:53.260 | Nutrition is a barbed wire topic.

00:53:55.280 | - Oh yeah.

00:53:56.120 | - But since we're free to do what we would do

00:54:00.100 | if we were just sitting in each other's offices,

00:54:01.740 | which is to just speculate a bit.

00:54:04.660 | For the typical person, right,

00:54:06.900 | do you think these low carbohydrate diets,

00:54:10.460 | typical person who exercises, runs, swims, yoga,

00:54:13.080 | lifts weights, maybe not all those things,

00:54:14.780 | but some collection of those,

00:54:16.820 | pushes themselves to do those things and to do them well,

00:54:19.740 | but isn't necessarily a highly competitive athlete?

00:54:22.580 | Do you think that nutrition

00:54:25.640 | that doesn't include a lot of glucose,

00:54:27.600 | doesn't include a lot of carbohydrates is a problem?

00:54:32.020 | Or is it okay?

00:54:33.380 | What do you recommend for athletes?

00:54:35.420 | What do you recommend for typical people?

00:54:37.140 | - Yeah, again, disclaimer, I'm not a dietician, but I-

00:54:41.140 | - That's okay, the dieticians don't know

00:54:42.540 | what to recommend to athletes either.

00:54:44.300 | And I say that from having to spend a lot of time

00:54:46.780 | with the literature now, it's a complete mess.

00:54:50.160 | It's like, I thought we didn't understand anything

00:54:51.700 | about the brain, the nutrition science stuff

00:54:53.460 | is all over the place.

00:54:55.100 | So I think we have, again, a large degrees of freedom.

00:54:59.540 | - I mean, I think it comes down to metabolic efficiency.

00:55:04.340 | So we would never advocate, I never say never, okay?

00:55:09.020 | But we rarely advocate a high-performance athlete

00:55:11.800 | in a high-intensity intermittent sport, like MMA,

00:55:16.320 | being totally ketogenic or being-

00:55:20.060 | - You do not recommend that?

00:55:21.220 | - No, because at the end of the day,

00:55:22.460 | some of those high-intensity efforts

00:55:24.900 | usually require carbohydrate fueling

00:55:29.140 | for the energy produced at those high intensities.

00:55:34.460 | So we try to navigate around that.

00:55:36.840 | Now, listen, there are fighters in the UFC and elsewhere.

00:55:39.580 | Matt Brown is a great example

00:55:41.540 | who promotes the ketogenic approach and it works for him.

00:55:45.360 | But we look at the science and the nature,

00:55:48.500 | the characteristics of our sport

00:55:49.700 | and we don't necessarily promote that.

00:55:51.040 | - Can I interrupt you real quick?

00:55:52.300 | What about ketones for people

00:55:54.600 | that are ingesting carbohydrates?

00:55:56.620 | This is an interesting area

00:55:57.700 | because people always hear ketones and they think,

00:55:59.600 | oh, I have to be ketogenic to benefit from taking ketones.

00:56:02.820 | But there are a number of athletes

00:56:04.180 | and recreational athletes now as well

00:56:07.340 | taking liquid or powder-based ketones

00:56:11.340 | even though they do eat rice and oatmeal

00:56:13.860 | and bread and other things.

00:56:15.780 | So are there any known benefits of ketones

00:56:19.180 | even if one is not in a state of ketosis?

00:56:21.940 | - So the use of ketones that I'm primarily aware of

00:56:26.940 | is in our sport is after the event,

00:56:31.300 | in terms of the brain health with athletes

00:56:33.620 | that are potentially taking trauma to the brain, et cetera,

00:56:36.500 | and looking to maintain the fueling

00:56:39.100 | and the energy supply to the brain.

00:56:40.900 | But yes, it's probably a little bit out of my remit

00:56:43.120 | so I don't want to talk on that

00:56:45.000 | because I'm not fully familiar with that.

00:56:46.940 | - Well, I've heard that ketones after head injury

00:56:49.820 | can provide a buffering component.

00:56:51.500 | - Correct.

00:56:52.340 | - It's not going to reverse brain damage,

00:56:53.360 | but it might be able to offset some of the micro damage.

00:56:56.020 | - Right, so that's how we use it,

00:56:58.340 | just to sustain the energy supply

00:57:00.900 | to the brain that might be compromised through brain trauma.

00:57:04.940 | So that's why we use ketones.

00:57:07.500 | To come back to the original question,

00:57:08.860 | if it's a general population, then yes,

00:57:11.380 | I think there's a place to argue

00:57:13.180 | that actually being on a ketogenic diet at times,

00:57:15.860 | and maybe it's a cycling exercise,

00:57:17.940 | maybe not, I don't mean cycling a bike,

00:57:19.940 | I mean cycling ketosis is beneficial

00:57:23.840 | because I think it's going to lead

00:57:25.140 | to better metabolic management and metabolic efficiency.

00:57:28.980 | Those lower intensities where we should be fueling

00:57:31.740 | our metabolism with lipids and fats,

00:57:35.700 | clearly the Western diet and the modern day diets

00:57:39.260 | is heavily driven by processed foods and carbohydrates

00:57:42.840 | that people become predisposed to utilization

00:57:45.780 | of that fuel source above lipids use, fat use,

00:57:50.780 | intensities that are very low.

00:57:52.660 | So some of our data with the fighters shows that as well.

00:57:56.380 | But I think the challenge for us

00:57:58.280 | is that we're working with a clientele

00:58:00.160 | that require high intensity bouts of effort.

00:58:03.260 | So fueling appropriately is very important for that.

00:58:07.000 | Now we use tactics here where we essentially have athletes

00:58:11.800 | on what you would say kind of is it a largely

00:58:14.460 | a ketogenic diet, but then we will fuel carbohydrates

00:58:18.520 | around training sessions.

00:58:20.380 | So we'll do very timed exposure to carbohydrates.

00:58:23.580 | So it's not-- - Post training.

00:58:24.920 | - Post training, immediately pre, during,

00:58:27.820 | and then immediately post.

00:58:29.180 | And then the rest of their diets, you know,

00:58:30.720 | breakfast, lunch, and dinner are what would look like

00:58:34.140 | ketogenic type approaches.

00:58:35.760 | So we're trying to be very tactical in the exposure

00:58:38.200 | to maximize the intensity for the training

00:58:41.380 | and then return to a metabolically efficient diet,

00:58:44.880 | which is heavily reduced in carbohydrate

00:58:47.760 | because we've fueled the sessions that need it.

00:58:50.840 | - I'm smiling because once again, this place,

00:58:54.560 | the UFC Performance Center is doing things

00:58:57.140 | scientifically, which, you know, to me, the idea that,

00:59:00.480 | and I'm pleased to hear that because to me,

00:59:02.720 | this idea that the ketogenic diet is the best and only diet

00:59:05.900 | or carbohydrates and low protein diets are the best diet.

00:59:09.520 | It's just, it's ludicrous.

00:59:11.120 | Then you mentioned metabolic efficiency.

00:59:13.320 | I think some people might be familiar with that term,

00:59:16.000 | some perhaps not, but the way I understand

00:59:19.220 | metabolic efficiency is that you teach the body

00:59:23.000 | to use fats by maybe doing long bouts of cardio,

00:59:28.000 | maybe lowering carbohydrates a bit.

00:59:30.180 | So teaching the body to tap into its fat stores

00:59:32.500 | for certain periods of training.

00:59:34.400 | And then you also teach the body to utilize carbohydrates

00:59:37.620 | by supplying carbohydrates immediately after training

00:59:40.220 | and before training.

00:59:41.060 | You teach the body to use ketones

00:59:43.140 | and then you use them at the appropriate time

00:59:44.820 | as opposed to just deciding that one of these fuel sources

00:59:47.260 | is good and all the others are bad or dispensable.

00:59:50.020 | Do I have that correct?

00:59:51.140 | - You nailed it.

00:59:51.980 | I mean, from Bob Seabahar, formerly of USA Triathlon,

00:59:56.980 | is the guy that kind of came up with the concept

01:00:01.200 | of metabolic efficiency, but yes, you're absolutely right.

01:00:04.140 | I mean, at low intensities of exercise

01:00:07.260 | or just day-to-day living, we shouldn't be tapping

01:00:09.800 | into our carbohydrate fuel sources extensively.

01:00:13.980 | That's for higher intensity work or, you know,

01:00:17.300 | the fight or flight needs of stress, you know?

01:00:21.140 | If, you know, athletes or any individual

01:00:24.220 | has a high carbohydrate diet, they're gonna start

01:00:27.960 | to become predisposed to utilizing

01:00:30.420 | that fuel source preferentially.

01:00:32.580 | Now at low intensity, that can be problematic,

01:00:34.860 | certainly for an athlete,

01:00:35.900 | because if they preferentially use carbohydrate

01:00:39.480 | at lower intensities, when the exercise demand

01:00:42.840 | goes to a higher intensity,

01:00:44.100 | they've already exhausted their fuel stores.

01:00:46.140 | You know, they can't draw upon fat

01:00:47.740 | because the oxidization of that fat is just too slow.

01:00:51.040 | So they're essentially now become fatigued

01:00:53.600 | because they've already utilized the carbohydrate stores.

01:00:56.700 | So what we try to do, yes, through diet manipulation

01:00:59.420 | and a little bit of exercise manipulation is, as you say,

01:01:02.260 | teach the body or train the body

01:01:03.780 | to preferentially use a specific fuel source.

01:01:06.540 | Fat, obviously, at lower intensities

01:01:08.220 | and carbohydrate at high intensities.

01:01:09.800 | And we look at specifically the crossover point

01:01:12.300 | between the two tells a lot in terms of how an athlete

01:01:15.340 | is ultimately, you know, how their metabolism is working.

01:01:18.900 | - Well, again, I'm smiling because I love this

01:01:21.320 | because it's grounded in something real and scientific,

01:01:25.080 | which is that we have these different fuel sources.

01:01:26.980 | The body can adapt to use any number of them or one of them.

01:01:30.240 | I think most people are looking for that one pattern

01:01:33.480 | of eating, that one pattern of exercising

01:01:35.440 | that's going to be best for them or sustain them.

01:01:38.160 | And they often look back to the time

01:01:41.320 | when they felt so much better

01:01:42.520 | switching from one thing to the next.

01:01:44.080 | But the adaptation process itself is also key, right?

01:01:47.360 | Teaching the body.

01:01:48.520 | And I, so if we were to just riff on this

01:01:52.900 | just a little bit further, if somebody,

01:01:55.640 | I'll use myself as an example

01:01:57.100 | since I can only speculate

01:01:59.460 | what other people's current nutrition protocols are,

01:02:02.820 | but if somebody is eating in a particular way

01:02:05.540 | and they want to try this kind of periodization of nutrition

01:02:09.600 | could one say, okay, for a few weeks,

01:02:11.820 | I'm going to do more high intensity interval training

01:02:13.960 | and weight training,

01:02:14.800 | and I'm going to eat a bit more carbohydrate

01:02:16.160 | because I'm depleting more glycogen.

01:02:17.780 | Then if I switch to a phase of my training

01:02:20.600 | where I'm doing some longer runs,

01:02:22.720 | maybe I'm training less,

01:02:24.220 | maybe I'm just working at my desk a little bit more,

01:02:26.620 | then I might switch to a lower carbohydrate diet.

01:02:29.020 | Do I have that right?

01:02:29.860 | And then if I'm going to enter a competition of some sort,

01:02:32.900 | certainly not UFC or MMA of any kind to be clear,

01:02:36.580 | not because it isn't a wonderful sport,

01:02:39.640 | but because that wouldn't be good for my other profession.

01:02:42.800 | But if I were going to do that,

01:02:45.080 | then I would think about stacking carbohydrates,

01:02:47.720 | ketones, and fats.

01:02:50.300 | Do I have that more of a strength?

01:02:51.900 | - I think, yeah, you just said it eloquently.

01:02:53.620 | At the end of the day,

01:02:54.540 | you're consciously understanding

01:02:57.060 | what the exposure to physical exertion is,

01:03:01.940 | and you're flexing your diet accordingly.

01:03:04.060 | - So it's need-based eating.

01:03:05.460 | - Exactly, and for one of the better terms,

01:03:07.620 | you can call it whatever fancy terminology

01:03:09.660 | there is out there,

01:03:10.500 | but yes, it's needs-based eating,

01:03:13.660 | but you're very conscious and cognizant

01:03:15.760 | of what is my current exercise status.

01:03:18.520 | If I'm taking some time off,

01:03:20.780 | then don't gorge on the carbohydrates.

01:03:22.960 | We probably need to be cut.

01:03:24.040 | It's going to be lower intensity work

01:03:25.700 | or even just habitual day-to-day walking around,

01:03:28.440 | doing your groceries.

01:03:29.800 | That doesn't require massive amounts of glycogen storage

01:03:33.420 | and carbohydrate fueling.

01:03:36.520 | So you can potentially go more ketogenic in nature,

01:03:39.860 | oxidizing lipids for that fuel.

01:03:43.480 | If you are in a high period of high-intensity training,

01:03:47.020 | then you have to consciously flex your diet to support that.

01:03:50.000 | That's not normal.

01:03:50.840 | You've made a change.

01:03:52.660 | You've elevated the demand.

01:03:54.060 | So the fueling requirements for the regenerative,

01:03:56.660 | not only fueling the exercise,

01:03:58.060 | but the regenerative requirements of your body

01:04:00.140 | after that type of work

01:04:01.340 | is going to be really important as well.

01:04:03.080 | So yes, take on more carbohydrates.

01:04:04.980 | So I think it's consciously interpreting

01:04:08.060 | the nature of your diet against what,

01:04:09.780 | where you are at any moment in time.

01:04:11.980 | Like that, you know, I think the listeners of my podcast

01:04:15.000 | generally are experimenters.

01:04:17.480 | They are scientists of themselves,

01:04:18.980 | which makes me happy, obviously.

01:04:21.640 | And I like to think that they're paying attention

01:04:24.000 | to the changes they're making

01:04:25.560 | and how they're affecting themselves.

01:04:27.660 | And they seem more open to trying things,

01:04:31.040 | provided they can do it safely, you know,

01:04:33.360 | and seeing what works for them.

01:04:35.420 | And I'm certainly going to try some of the change up.

01:04:38.040 | I also am really a creature of habit.

01:04:40.120 | And I think the, talking to you today, I realize

01:04:42.240 | I'm probably doing a number of things truly wrong

01:04:44.320 | in my training, but also that I don't tend to vary

01:04:47.420 | my nutrition with my training quite as much as I should.

01:04:50.080 | I'm just locked into a protocol.

01:04:52.380 | We covered a number of things related to your PhD thesis work

01:04:57.600 | and then, but I cut you off early on

01:04:59.720 | related to your trajectory.

01:05:01.680 | After you finished your thesis,

01:05:04.000 | you, I know you were at Notre Dame for a while.

01:05:06.480 | Was that your first spot after your PhD thesis?

01:05:09.800 | - No, no, I basically finished my PhD

01:05:13.400 | and I dropped into the British Olympic system

01:05:15.640 | for about 14 years.

01:05:17.080 | - Oh my, okay.

01:05:17.920 | - I was with, you know, I've done three full Olympic cycles

01:05:22.300 | with different sports and largely a strength

01:05:24.560 | and conditioning coach as a practitioner.

01:05:27.840 | I was always working in universities and academia

01:05:30.560 | alongside, you know, in terms of continuing to publish

01:05:33.860 | and write and do research and teach as well.

01:05:37.120 | - 'Cause that explains the huge volume of publications.

01:05:40.000 | I don't think people realize the work that goes into

01:05:42.280 | getting a quality peer reviewed publication.

01:05:44.780 | It's not, what do they call it now on Instagram?

01:05:47.320 | Anecdata, where people would do something,

01:05:49.280 | what, you know, they have this experience

01:05:51.240 | and then they put it in the world.

01:05:53.560 | Anecdata are, I don't even know that

01:05:56.040 | we should call it data, but so 14 years

01:05:59.360 | in working with the British Olympic team.

01:06:01.600 | - Yeah, so with, you know, whether it was GB boxing,

01:06:04.800 | primarily with the Rio, excuse me, the Beijing cycle,

01:06:08.740 | but also lightweight rowers and gymnastics.

01:06:11.720 | For the London Olympic games, that cycle I was with,

01:06:14.600 | I was the lead strength and conditioning

01:06:16.120 | and physical performance coach for British basketball,

01:06:18.320 | so GB basketball.

01:06:20.400 | I had about three years in the English Premier League

01:06:24.000 | with Newcastle United and the soccer team.

01:06:26.600 | And then for the Rio Olympic cycle,

01:06:28.380 | I was with Great Britain Taekwondo.

01:06:29.760 | So again, another combat sport.

01:06:32.540 | After I'd finished there, I kind of moved

01:06:35.020 | to the University of Notre Dame,

01:06:37.060 | where I went into more of a managerial position

01:06:40.880 | working across all the different technical services,

01:06:43.660 | medical, nutrition, strength and conditioning,

01:06:45.900 | you know, psychology, whatever, sports science,

01:06:48.440 | whatever it may be, as the director of performance sciences

01:06:53.440 | for Notre Dame athletics.

01:06:55.540 | And then after about 16 months there,

01:06:57.500 | the UFC came knocking and they recruited me out of Notre Dame

01:07:01.040 | so it's been a great ride.

01:07:03.200 | And lots of, you know, I've got, you know,

01:07:05.540 | lots of athletes have taught me a lot along the way,

01:07:08.240 | lots of coaches, you know, every day is a school day.

01:07:10.560 | I still try and keep that mentality.

01:07:12.920 | And, you know, in this world,

01:07:14.200 | we call it white belt mentality, you know,

01:07:16.600 | it's, you know, I'm a PhD.

01:07:18.960 | I've got 25 years of experience in high performance sport,

01:07:22.160 | but I still learn every single day

01:07:25.100 | from these people out on the mats and in the ring

01:07:27.080 | and it's impressive to see what they do.

01:07:28.780 | - Yeah, it certainly is.

01:07:29.740 | I got introduced to MMA just a few years ago.

01:07:32.800 | I think the first time I came out here

01:07:34.240 | was one of the first times I'd heard of MMA

01:07:36.460 | 'cause I was kind of in my laboratory, you know, nose down.

01:07:39.200 | And it's a really interesting sport

01:07:40.780 | because it incorporates so many different types of movement,

01:07:43.960 | as you said, you know, it's not just stand up boxing,

01:07:46.600 | it's just kicking, it's, you know, ground game, everything,

01:07:49.260 | and I'm still learning about it.

01:07:52.000 | But as you mentioned, going in with that beginner's mind,

01:07:55.080 | the white belt mentality,

01:07:59.400 | what has been the most surprising thing for you

01:08:03.220 | in terms of being exposed to MMA in particular,

01:08:05.880 | as opposed to other sports?

01:08:06.940 | Like what's unique about MMA fighters

01:08:09.040 | besides that they have this huge variety

01:08:11.040 | of tactical skills that they have to learn and perfect?

01:08:16.040 | - Yeah, that's a great question.

01:08:19.700 | I would say two things.

01:08:20.540 | I'm going to answer two questions.

01:08:21.560 | One actually reiterates what you've already said.

01:08:23.460 | Like the degrees of freedom in mixed martial arts

01:08:26.520 | are exponential, like no other sports, you know.

01:08:30.040 | We've got 11 different weight classes.

01:08:32.000 | We have men's classes, we have women's classes,

01:08:34.080 | we have, you know, kickboxers, wrestlers,

01:08:37.000 | jiu-jitsu fighters, judokas, you know, like karate fighters.

01:08:40.280 | You know, the stylistic backgrounds are infinite.

01:08:43.360 | We have, we're a weight classification sport.

01:08:46.080 | There's a whole issue relating to making weight

01:08:48.400 | and then rebounding to fight about 24 to 30 hours.

01:08:51.800 | Like just the variability in this sport,

01:08:54.880 | the considerations that you have to make are unprecedented

01:08:59.480 | compared to any other sport that I've worked with.

01:09:02.240 | And a lot of them go against and are the antithesis

01:09:06.320 | of what you would expect for a high performance.

01:09:08.760 | You know, in terms of we don't always have

01:09:12.540 | a very clearly defined competition schedule.

01:09:15.080 | You know, once these guys fight,

01:09:16.280 | they don't necessarily know

01:09:17.580 | when their next fight's going to be.

01:09:18.760 | - What's the closest spacing of a fight?

01:09:20.880 | - I mean, listen, I think the record is around,

01:09:24.780 | it's just over a month, I believe.

01:09:27.260 | - Goodness.

01:09:28.360 | - So, you know, that's a quick turnaround,

01:09:30.080 | but most of these guys are fighting, you know,

01:09:32.260 | three or four times a year.

01:09:33.620 | Three times a year is pretty normal.

01:09:36.300 | The bigger fights, maybe two times a year,

01:09:39.040 | but invariably the guys don't know

01:09:40.900 | when that next date is going to be.

01:09:42.900 | So we're in this gray area of, okay, what do we do?

01:09:45.620 | Like, are we taking some time off?

01:09:47.380 | Are we just going to do some general prep work?

01:09:49.220 | Are we going to try and keep this, you know,

01:09:51.860 | the knife sharpened in case I get-

01:09:53.380 | - I didn't realize this.

01:09:54.220 | In that way, it's a lot like special operations.

01:09:56.880 | - Absolutely.

01:09:57.720 | You don't know when the call's going to happen.

01:09:59.060 | - They have to be ready at all times.

01:10:00.700 | There isn't this like, let's get ready for the season.

01:10:02.700 | - Right.

01:10:03.540 | Yeah, like when I was with the British Olympic Association,

01:10:06.180 | you know, I knew it was the British Open, the Spanish Open,

01:10:09.140 | the French Open, the European Championships,

01:10:11.100 | the Israeli Open, the American Open, the Canadian Open,

01:10:13.600 | the Olympic Games.

01:10:14.440 | You know, I could-

01:10:15.260 | - It's a circuit in your brain.

01:10:16.100 | - Right, you just plan like, you know,

01:10:18.780 | where all the targets are going to be.

01:10:20.000 | Here, it's a moving target

01:10:21.620 | because you might be just hanging out,

01:10:23.300 | doing some general prep work,

01:10:24.460 | and then you might get a short notice fight.

01:10:26.240 | They give you a quick call and it's in six weeks

01:10:28.060 | or five weeks, and okay,

01:10:29.380 | I've got to ramp everything up really quickly.

01:10:31.520 | So that's a real challenge in terms of just managing

01:10:35.500 | all these different components of mixed martial arts alone.

01:10:39.780 | To come back to your question,

01:10:42.140 | the other thing which is truly fascinating

01:10:44.780 | about these individuals is their,

01:10:47.420 | just their mental resilience.

01:10:49.300 | And again, we've touched on it in the talk,

01:10:51.060 | but you know, the ability to do what they do

01:10:53.220 | on a daily basis, to look at all the different skillsets

01:10:57.860 | that they have to try and engage in

01:10:59.460 | and bring into their training,

01:11:01.740 | to do that and embrace the grind,

01:11:04.460 | embrace the process of just learning.

01:11:07.340 | The physical side of our sport is unprecedented,

01:11:10.520 | but the mental side, you know,

01:11:12.480 | we have a funny saying here,

01:11:13.320 | we always say it's 90% mental

01:11:16.380 | apart from the 60% that's physical.

01:11:18.500 | So, you know, it's just more and more and more.

01:11:21.500 | And these guys' ability to just do that on a daily basis

01:11:26.500 | is very impressive.

01:11:28.460 | Like their resilience, their internal drive

01:11:30.900 | and their resilience is really impressive to see.

01:11:34.220 | - You know, all the fighters I've met here

01:11:35.460 | have been really terrific, it's interesting.

01:11:37.980 | Every time I meet a fighter, how often I,

01:11:40.420 | I shouldn't be surprising where they're often

01:11:41.840 | very soft-spoken. - Right.

01:11:43.260 | - Always extremely polite. - Yeah, yeah.

01:11:45.460 | - And fighting is such a, you know,

01:11:47.340 | it comes from a very primitive portion of the brain, right?

01:11:50.740 | But a large portion of the brain nonetheless.

01:11:52.500 | - But I think that's another skill is that switch, you know?

01:11:54.820 | And again, that's the recoverability piece, right?

01:11:57.460 | Like you cannot be type A

01:11:59.340 | or you cannot be like supercharged 24 hours a day

01:12:03.360 | because you're going to just fry your system, right?

01:12:05.700 | And I think that's something else

01:12:06.860 | where we're really trying to manage this whole process,

01:12:08.960 | be it through nutritional interventions,

01:12:11.200 | be it through education around sleep,

01:12:12.940 | be it through training program management,

01:12:16.580 | be it through psychological interventions.

01:12:19.000 | You know, you could look at fights and say like,

01:12:21.500 | these guys are go, like they're red alert

01:12:23.500 | and they'll run through a brick wall.

01:12:24.980 | But actually, again, their ability to turn it on and off

01:12:28.180 | means that they can do what they do.

01:12:30.140 | You know, they can bring it down and be very normal,

01:12:33.180 | very polite, very, you know, accommodating.

01:12:37.160 | - Maybe even better than most people,

01:12:38.620 | because, you know, one of the reasons I'm obsessed

01:12:40.580 | with human performance and high performance

01:12:42.760 | and people like fighters and, you know, elite military

01:12:46.160 | or even bodybuilders for that matter

01:12:48.420 | is that they experiment,

01:12:51.200 | they find the outer limits of what's possible,

01:12:53.700 | but one of the things that they have discovered

01:12:56.360 | as you're describing is this ability to toggle

01:12:58.640 | between high alert states and calm states.

01:13:01.040 | Most typical people can't do this.

01:13:03.660 | They see something that upsets them on the internet

01:13:05.740 | or something on the news

01:13:06.940 | or some external event pressures down on them

01:13:09.400 | and they're stressed for many, many days and weeks

01:13:11.300 | and sometimes it goes pathological, right?

01:13:13.480 | And this, I don't say this as a criticism,

01:13:15.600 | it's just that most human beings within our species,

01:13:19.420 | most members of our species never learn

01:13:21.420 | to either flip the switch

01:13:23.460 | or to just voluntarily toggle between states.

01:13:26.440 | I think athletes learn how to do that extremely well.

01:13:29.700 | And it sounds like MMA fighters do that even better

01:13:33.020 | than perhaps many other athletes.

01:13:35.220 | - I mean, yeah, there's the odd one or two

01:13:37.240 | that we'd struggle with,

01:13:38.080 | but I think in terms of that chronic exposure,

01:13:41.020 | we see that coming from challenges around,

01:13:44.740 | cyclical weight cutting and metabolic disruption

01:13:47.400 | and metabolic injury,

01:13:48.300 | not necessarily from the psychological drive.

01:13:50.620 | They do understand that this is a job for them

01:13:55.200 | and the time on the mats.

01:13:57.300 | Most of them can turn it off a little bit

01:13:59.500 | and downgrade things when they're off the mats.

01:14:01.980 | It's impressive to see.

01:14:03.980 | Because again, as a layman,

01:14:05.660 | just looking at the fight game,

01:14:08.060 | you think it's gonna be crazy chaotic,

01:14:10.620 | 100 miles an hour, every hour of every day,

01:14:13.180 | but that's clearly not the case.

01:14:15.520 | They manage their energy and their efforts pretty well.

01:14:20.200 | - So it's a little bit like science,

01:14:21.460 | although maybe scientists could take a lesson from it.

01:14:23.380 | - Yeah, it's evidence-based practice

01:14:25.300 | or practice-based evidence, right?

01:14:26.700 | - I like that, that's good.

01:14:28.800 | A couple more questions.

01:14:29.680 | I can't help myself.

01:14:31.080 | I know we talked about temperature earlier

01:14:33.080 | when we discussed cold, but I can't help myself.

01:14:36.020 | I have to ask you about heat.

01:14:37.840 | Because earlier we were having a conversation

01:14:40.260 | about heat adaptation,

01:14:41.740 | about how long does it take for the human body

01:14:45.780 | or athlete or typical person

01:14:47.380 | that's maybe exploring sauna or things of that sort

01:14:50.420 | to learn to be a better sweater?

01:14:52.860 | It sounds like something none of us would want to do.

01:14:55.020 | We all want to stay cool, calm, and collected.

01:14:56.780 | But one of the reasons to deliberately expose oneself to heat

01:15:00.100 | is for things like growth hormone release, et cetera.

01:15:03.740 | We can talk about this, but a couple of questions.

01:15:06.460 | One, is heat exposure stress in the same way

01:15:09.180 | that the ice bath or cold exposure is stress?

01:15:13.380 | The second one is,

01:15:14.220 | is there any difference there that's important?

01:15:16.660 | And the other one is,

01:15:18.020 | how does one get better at heat adaptation?

01:15:20.440 | Or at least what are you doing with the fighters

01:15:21.860 | to get them better at dealing with heat?

01:15:24.020 | How long does that take?

01:15:24.860 | So the first question,

01:15:25.940 | just 'cause I threw three questions at you,

01:15:28.220 | is, was, you know, is heat stress like cold is stress?

01:15:33.220 | - Yeah, I think it is.

01:15:34.260 | And I think, you know, heat shock proteins, for example,

01:15:36.460 | are driven by that stressful exposure

01:15:39.260 | to a changing environment.

01:15:41.540 | So I think, you know,

01:15:42.960 | we do graded response in terms of heat acclimation

01:15:47.400 | strategies, but yes,

01:15:50.160 | we've touched on it earlier in the conversation.

01:15:52.040 | For me, heat is still a stressor.

01:15:54.260 | And if it's managed incorrectly,

01:15:56.980 | you can have detrimental responses

01:15:59.580 | rather than beneficial responses.

01:16:01.100 | - So barring like hyperthermia and death,

01:16:03.240 | like, I mean, obviously you heat up the brain too much,

01:16:05.120 | people will have seizures and die, but you lose neurons.

01:16:09.000 | But what's the right way to acclimate heat?

01:16:12.440 | Taking into account that people are, you know,

01:16:14.380 | should check with their doctor, et cetera,

01:16:16.120 | we do all these disclaimers.

01:16:17.400 | But, you know, but let's say I,

01:16:19.160 | let's just say I want to get better at dealing with heat

01:16:21.660 | or I want to extract more benefit from heat.

01:16:24.020 | Is, I mean, how many minutes a day

01:16:25.580 | are people typically exposing themselves to heat?

01:16:27.760 | How often and over what periods of time?

01:16:30.300 | - Yeah, so we normally start

01:16:32.180 | with about 15 minutes of exposure.

01:16:34.000 | Now, if someone's really lacking acclimation to heat,

01:16:37.380 | you know, you can do that in three, five minute efforts.

01:16:40.060 | Do you know what I mean?

01:16:40.900 | And actually take time- - This is hot sauna.

01:16:42.220 | - Yeah, hot sauna, take time to step-

01:16:43.980 | - 200 degrees or something like Fahrenheit.

01:16:45.500 | - Correct, yeah, yeah, 200 Fahrenheit, yes.

01:16:48.100 | And we try to work up to 30 to 40 minutes

01:16:51.320 | to 45 minutes in the sauna continuous.

01:16:53.940 | Now we have to understand, you know,

01:16:56.540 | what's the advantage of heat acclimation for our athletes?

01:16:59.980 | Ultimately their ability to sweat

01:17:02.380 | and to lose, you know, body fluids

01:17:05.180 | is going to be advantageous to their weight cut process,

01:17:08.880 | their ability to make weight.

01:17:10.180 | It is a technique that these guys,

01:17:11.620 | some of these guys adopt.

01:17:12.660 | So if you don't have, you know, high sweat rates,

01:17:16.220 | it means you're going to have to sit in the sauna

01:17:18.120 | for longer and longer and longer

01:17:19.640 | to get the same delta in sweat release.

01:17:23.520 | So the more acclimated you are,

01:17:25.060 | the more your body is thermogenically adapted,

01:17:28.380 | the more sweat glands you have, the smaller pores.

01:17:31.520 | You can sweat more and therefore you'll lose

01:17:33.660 | that fluid quicker and you spend less time in the sauna.

01:17:36.220 | So that's why we do it, to try and promote,

01:17:40.060 | to limit the exposure.

01:17:42.320 | And it comes back to your first question, is it a stressor?

01:17:45.140 | Absolutely, it's a stressor if you've got to spend,

01:17:47.660 | you know, two hours over, you know,

01:17:50.020 | over a four hour period, two hours of it sat in a sauna

01:17:52.660 | because you- - Yeah, where the phone

01:17:53.740 | doesn't work, so you can't, you know,

01:17:56.060 | people will divorce them from their phone

01:17:57.680 | and that's a stressor in itself.

01:17:59.200 | - Right, I mean, yes, I think, you know,

01:18:01.000 | there's a, you know, what we do is we, like anything,

01:18:04.860 | we build up in temperature,

01:18:06.060 | but we build up in volume of exposure.

01:18:08.280 | So, you know, we start with 15 minutes

01:18:09.960 | and then we just try to add on and add on across a time.

01:18:13.020 | And now for us, we kind of found about 14 sauna exposures

01:18:17.780 | starts to really then drive the adaptations

01:18:20.080 | that we're looking for.

01:18:20.920 | So it's not a quick fix, you know,

01:18:22.740 | a heat acclimation strategy has to happen

01:18:25.340 | long before fight week or long before the fights.

01:18:28.160 | You know, this is a process that has to begin, you know,

01:18:31.420 | eight to 10 weeks before the fight

01:18:32.940 | so that we can actually get that adaptation

01:18:35.160 | and that tolerance to the stressor, to the exposure of heat.

01:18:38.620 | - This is interesting, until today,

01:18:40.360 | when we talked about this earlier and again now,

01:18:42.480 | I didn't realize that,

01:18:44.740 | but it makes perfect sense now that I hear it,

01:18:46.900 | that heat adaptation is possible,

01:18:49.980 | that you're basically can train the body

01:18:51.460 | to become better at cooling itself,

01:18:53.480 | which is what sweating is.

01:18:55.020 | I mean, I should have known that before,

01:18:56.740 | but you know, you don't see that in the textbooks.

01:18:58.760 | And so, yeah.

01:18:59.600 | - I mean, listen, it's the same

01:19:03.300 | as the ketogenic conversation.

01:19:04.840 | You know, you're training your body

01:19:06.020 | to be more metabolic efficient.

01:19:07.800 | You're training your body to tolerate heat more.

01:19:10.260 | You're training your body, like the body is, you know,

01:19:13.220 | as an organism, as an organic system,

01:19:15.880 | it's hugely adaptable, it's hugely plastic.

01:19:18.700 | But I think the skill is understanding the whens,

01:19:21.860 | the whys and the where ofs in terms of changing the overload,

01:19:26.120 | changing the stimulus to drive specific adaptation.

01:19:29.360 | And philosophically, that's how we go about our work here.

01:19:32.440 | We talk about adaptation-led programming.

01:19:35.600 | Now, adaptation-led programming

01:19:37.920 | fits into every single category,

01:19:39.740 | not just lifting weights or running track.

01:19:41.920 | It fits into nutrition.

01:19:43.280 | It fits into sitting in the sauna.

01:19:45.220 | It fits into being in a cold bath or not.

01:19:47.140 | It fits into so many different things

01:19:49.000 | because we're driven by scientific insights.

01:19:51.940 | And that's how we really want to go about our business.

01:19:54.440 | - I love it.

01:19:55.280 | I love the concept of adaptation-led programming

01:19:57.360 | and doing that, not just in the context of, you know,

01:19:59.920 | throwing another plate on the bar or something like that,

01:20:02.220 | but in every aspect of one's training and performance.

01:20:06.680 | And I think there's a lot here that's applicable

01:20:08.280 | to the recreational athlete too.

01:20:10.200 | - Yeah.

01:20:11.040 | - Would you say that, you know,

01:20:12.520 | what comes to mind is 12 weeks.

01:20:14.360 | It feels like 12 weeks is a nice block of time

01:20:16.760 | for someone to try something in terms of,

01:20:19.180 | to try something new, see how they adapt, adapt,

01:20:22.320 | and then maybe switch to something new.

01:20:24.120 | I realize that it's very hard to throw a kind of pan

01:20:27.080 | timeframe around something.

01:20:29.640 | But in terms of, if someone wanted to experiment

01:20:32.240 | with heat adaptation or experiment with cold adaptation

01:20:35.160 | or change up their training regimen or diet

01:20:37.960 | and look at metabolic efficiency,

01:20:40.400 | do you think 12 weeks is a good period of time

01:20:43.600 | to really give something a thorough go

01:20:45.460 | and gain an understanding of how well

01:20:48.360 | or how poorly something works for oneself?

01:20:50.320 | Or would you say eight is enough or three?

01:20:52.920 | - I mean, that's the, how long is a piece of string

01:20:55.040 | kind of response, right?

01:20:56.360 | I mean, yes, if we're just talking arbitrary numbers.

01:20:59.720 | - Recreational experimenter, yeah.

01:21:01.320 | - Three months exposure, 12 week training strategy,

01:21:05.040 | 12 week intervention is more than adequate to say,

01:21:08.480 | for 99% of things that change within the body

01:21:12.060 | that physiologically adapt to a training stimulus

01:21:14.760 | or an overload stimulus, you're gonna start to see

01:21:17.060 | either regression or progression, you know,

01:21:20.060 | beneficial or detrimental effects within three months,

01:21:22.800 | absolutely, I would say so.

01:21:24.320 | Now, listen, I say that in as much as we do

01:21:27.000 | training blocks here that are three weeks long, you know?

01:21:29.840 | - That's because of this constraint

01:21:31.120 | that sometimes people suddenly have to,

01:21:32.920 | they get the call to fight.

01:21:34.200 | - Correct, yeah, so it's like super condensed.

01:21:36.980 | And, you know, in that scenario, we're always conscious of,

01:21:41.280 | is there a body or this individual,

01:21:45.520 | do they have the ability to tolerate that super overload,

01:21:48.680 | that like super condensed exposure?

01:21:50.540 | Now, we might be doing that purposefully.

01:21:52.040 | We might be trying to do an overreaching strategy

01:21:54.160 | where we're really trying to damage or flex something,

01:21:57.400 | and I don't mean like negatively damaged,

01:21:59.160 | but like we're trying to damage tissue

01:22:00.440 | to really get an adaptive response versus, you know,

01:22:03.560 | more drawn out 12 week strategy, which is more coherent,

01:22:07.640 | more planned out, more structured in nature.

01:22:10.680 | But yeah, for all your listeners, I would say,

01:22:13.000 | if 12 weeks to engage in a process of, you know,

01:22:17.700 | trying to change and adapt your body

01:22:19.720 | or expose yourself to something is more than sufficient

01:22:22.160 | to see if it's gonna be the right approach for you.

01:22:24.960 | And I think, you know, the individual interpretation

01:22:29.920 | is always has to be considered.

01:22:31.560 | And I think that's where it comes back

01:22:33.400 | to be a thinking man's athlete

01:22:35.400 | or be a thinking man's trainer,

01:22:37.800 | like someone that's going through exercise.

01:22:40.640 | You have to consciously understand

01:22:43.880 | where your body's at any moment in time.

01:22:45.580 | You know, you've gotta be real with yourself.

01:22:47.000 | You can create a journal, create a log of your training,

01:22:49.580 | create a log of your feelings, your subjective feedback

01:22:51.880 | of, you know, how you felt, your mood, your sleep.

01:22:54.720 | - Do your athletes do that?

01:22:55.960 | - Yeah, yeah, we try to promote that

01:22:58.120 | because again, that's part of this process, you know.

01:23:01.520 | Might be 12 weeks for you,

01:23:03.460 | but I might get the same responses in eight weeks, you know.

01:23:06.100 | And I think that's another critical theme here

01:23:10.400 | is that, you know, we could put 15 guys on the mat

01:23:15.280 | and give them the same workout

01:23:17.500 | and there's gonna be 15 different responses

01:23:20.400 | to that same workout

01:23:21.920 | because the human organism is so complex

01:23:24.880 | and in nature that it's gonna adapt differently.

01:23:27.720 | You know, some people will tolerate it.

01:23:29.400 | Some people are gonna be challenged by it.

01:23:31.120 | Some people have got a metabolic makeup

01:23:33.000 | that's gonna promote it.

01:23:34.000 | Some people are metabolically challenged by it.

01:23:36.240 | You know, there's just so many different things

01:23:38.800 | that we have to consider.

01:23:39.780 | And that's what we try to do here.

01:23:41.800 | It's the cross we bear is that we try to understand

01:23:44.320 | on an individual level how to optimize athletic performance.

01:23:47.980 | - No, I think it's terrific.

01:23:48.960 | And, you know, the athletes here are so fortunate

01:23:50.940 | to have this and most people out there,

01:23:53.380 | you know, I've certainly been trying to encourage people

01:23:56.100 | to learn some science and some mechanism

01:23:57.900 | and become scientists of their own pursuits,

01:24:00.060 | whether or not skill learning or athletic pursuit, et cetera.

01:24:03.340 | As a sort of a final question,

01:24:07.400 | what are some things about the UFC

01:24:09.020 | or something about the UFC that perhaps people don't know

01:24:11.700 | in terms of its overall mission

01:24:13.420 | or what you guys are trying to do here?

01:24:14.900 | I mean, I think I've become a fan of MMA

01:24:17.600 | and I am more and more as time moves on.

01:24:20.780 | Some people might be in MMA,

01:24:22.140 | some people not into watching MMA,

01:24:24.500 | but what are some things that the UFC is interested in

01:24:27.340 | and doing that most people might not know about

01:24:30.860 | and certainly I might not know about?

01:24:33.060 | - Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

01:24:36.320 | we try to be cutting edge.

01:24:39.380 | We try to be super progressive.

01:24:41.260 | You know, we think we've got an amazing platform here,

01:24:43.940 | particularly at the Performance Institute

01:24:45.540 | to do some really cool things

01:24:46.720 | that can inform many different people

01:24:48.620 | and that doesn't just mean the 600 or so athletes

01:24:51.900 | that are on our global roster.

01:24:53.980 | What we're trying to do is influence, you know,

01:24:57.060 | global community around optimizing human performance.

01:25:00.800 | So, you know, any moment in time,

01:25:02.600 | we're engaging in different technologies

01:25:04.580 | with different vendors, different partners,

01:25:06.700 | you know, exploring opportunities to, you know,

01:25:09.180 | learn more, share data, understand what's the best mechanisms

01:25:12.580 | for, you know, interpreting your body,

01:25:14.780 | interpreting how your body's responding to training,

01:25:17.020 | interpreting, you know, your nutrition

01:25:19.100 | or whatever it may be.

01:25:19.940 | We get, we're in a really privileged position to do that.

01:25:23.900 | But we've also, you know, hence you've been here today,

01:25:26.580 | you know, we're also trying to venture

01:25:29.040 | into some really cool areas of science and research

01:25:31.860 | that's got applicability that you can take

01:25:34.540 | from high-performance athletes and apply, you know,

01:25:36.980 | to yourself, to, you know, Joe Blow walking down the street,

01:25:39.660 | you know, out there that is really interesting.

01:25:42.740 | And that's everything from, you know,

01:25:45.100 | whether it's CBD and psychedelics

01:25:47.140 | through to different technologies for, you know,

01:25:50.240 | thermal monitoring and Bluetooth heart rate monitoring

01:25:53.060 | or whatever it may be through to data management, et cetera,

01:25:56.600 | and anything in between.

01:25:58.180 | We've got some great partners on the nutrition side,

01:26:01.020 | on the psychology side, on the data side.

01:26:03.460 | And I think, you know, we always try to just push the envelope

01:26:07.300 | a little bit more.

01:26:08.140 | I think we keep our core mission with our athletes,

01:26:10.680 | but I think a lot of what we do, hence your podcast,

01:26:14.380 | and you know, like an amazing platform,

01:26:16.400 | you do such a great job of it,

01:26:17.580 | that, you know, we can all learn and take from, you know,

01:26:21.060 | the elite and interpret how it might help us

01:26:23.420 | and just in the general population.

01:26:25.180 | So I think that's, you know,

01:26:26.540 | that's our North Star is to provide our athletes

01:26:29.560 | the best integrated service of care.

01:26:33.540 | But we also want to influence, you know,

01:26:35.120 | just the global community and put the UFC

01:26:37.660 | at the forefront of that.

01:26:38.700 | - That's great.

01:26:39.520 | Well, you guys are certainly doing it.

01:26:40.440 | We can't let the cat out of the bag just yet,

01:26:43.540 | but the things that we're gearing up to do

01:26:45.580 | with my laboratory and the work together,

01:26:48.700 | hopefully we'll be able to talk about that

01:26:50.140 | and share that in the year to come.

01:26:52.660 | But that's, we're very excited about that.

01:26:55.140 | And Duncan, look, you know, I have this filter that I use

01:27:00.360 | when I talk to people, academics or otherwise,

01:27:03.100 | which is, you know, some people, they open their mouth

01:27:04.680 | and it doesn't make much difference.

01:27:06.720 | But when you speak, I learn so much.

01:27:09.740 | I'm going to take the protocols

01:27:11.800 | that I've heard about today.

01:27:13.120 | I'm going to think about how I'm training

01:27:14.680 | and how I could train differently and better,

01:27:16.140 | how I'm eating, how I could eat differently and better

01:27:19.920 | for sake of performance and just in general.

01:27:23.340 | Thank you so much for your time, your scientific expertise,

01:27:27.720 | the stuff you're doing in the practical realm.

01:27:29.680 | It's immense, so hopefully we can do it again.

01:27:33.280 | - Yes, thank you, this has been a blast.

01:27:34.980 | I appreciate it and yeah, keep doing what you're doing

01:27:37.160 | 'cause I know there's a lot of people out there

01:27:38.640 | that love the platform.

01:27:39.560 | So thanks for the invite, it's been awesome.

01:27:41.840 | - Thank you, thanks so much.

01:27:43.960 | Thank you for joining me for my conversation

01:27:46.060 | with Dr. Duncan French.

01:27:47.800 | I hope you found it as insightful and informative as I did.

01:27:51.680 | If you're enjoying this podcast and or learning from it,

01:27:54.160 | please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

01:27:56.200 | Please also leave us a comment or a suggestion

01:27:58.580 | of a future topic or future guests that you'd like us to have

01:28:01.680 | on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

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01:28:07.800 | And on Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

01:28:11.300 | Please also check out the sponsors that we mentioned

01:28:13.520 | at the beginning of this episode.

01:28:14.920 | That's a terrific way to support this podcast.

01:28:17.460 | We also have a Patreon, it's patreon.com/andrewhuberman.

01:28:21.920 | And there you can support the podcast

01:28:23.760 | at any level that you like.

01:28:25.480 | Many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast,

01:28:28.320 | we discuss supplements.

01:28:29.740 | Supplements for sleep, supplements for focus,

01:28:32.180 | and for other health benefits as well.

01:28:34.320 | While supplements may not be for everybody,

01:28:36.120 | if you're going to use supplements,

01:28:37.420 | you want to make sure that those supplements

01:28:38.860 | are of the very highest quality.

01:28:40.780 | For that reason, we've partnered with Thorne, T-H-O-R-N-E,

01:28:44.420 | because Thorne supplements are of the very highest quality

01:28:47.860 | and the amounts of ingredients listed on the label

01:28:51.100 | of Thorne supplements precisely matches

01:28:53.140 | what is actually contained in those capsules, bottles,

01:28:55.900 | and pills and powders and so forth.

01:28:57.600 | This is extremely important.

01:28:58.740 | A lot of analyses of supplements and supplement companies

01:29:01.500 | have shown that what's listed on the bottle

01:29:04.140 | is often not what's actually contained in the bottle.

01:29:07.460 | Thorne's stringency is unmatched.

01:29:09.360 | They've partnered with all the major sports teams,

01:29:11.820 | with the Mayo Clinic, and so there's a lot of trust

01:29:14.340 | in Thorne supplements for all the right reasons.

01:29:16.700 | If you'd like to try Thorne supplements,

01:29:18.500 | you can see the supplements that I take.

01:29:20.240 | You can go to Thorne, thorne.com/u/huberman.

01:29:25.720 | There, you can see the supplements that I take.

01:29:28.000 | You can get 20% off any of those supplements,

01:29:30.220 | and if you navigate into the Thorne site

01:29:32.220 | through that portal, you can get 20% off

01:29:34.980 | any of the supplements that Thorne makes.

01:29:37.260 | I'd also like to mention that if you're not already

01:29:39.260 | following us on Instagram @hubermanlab,

01:29:42.120 | you might want to do so.

01:29:43.100 | There, I do brief science tutorials

01:29:45.940 | and offer science-based protocols for all sorts of things

01:29:48.960 | that are often separate from the protocols and information

01:29:51.700 | covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

01:29:53.780 | We're also on Twitter as Huberman Lab.

01:29:56.560 | And last and certainly not least,

01:29:58.980 | thank you for your interest in science.

01:30:00.780 | [upbeat music]

01:30:03.360 | (upbeat music)

Dr. Duncan French: How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization | Huberman Lab #45

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