Autism Risk, Vaccine Safety & Inflammation | Dr. Chris Palmer & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.120 | - Is there any evidence that vaccines

00:00:04.160 | or the adjuvants for vaccines

00:00:07.520 | or anything about vaccines and their delivery

00:00:10.080 | can disrupt mitochondrial function?

00:00:12.620 | So often we think that it's like the vaccine

00:00:16.160 | having a specific effect

00:00:17.520 | on what the vaccine was designed to target

00:00:19.860 | that could potentially cause side effects

00:00:21.900 | or something like that.

00:00:22.740 | That's what many of the theories hold.

00:00:24.440 | But given the key role of mitochondria

00:00:29.680 | in all aspects of brain functioning

00:00:31.780 | and given that some people are convinced,

00:00:35.740 | I'm not saying I believe this,

00:00:36.780 | but are convinced that vaccines are tied

00:00:38.660 | to these mental health challenges or to autism,

00:00:41.740 | let's be direct about this.

00:00:43.380 | Is there any evidence that vaccines can,

00:00:45.700 | of any kind can disrupt mitochondrial function

00:00:48.000 | or support mitochondrial function for that matter?

00:00:50.800 | - It is a contentious.

00:00:53.580 | - Maybe it's a different episode.

00:00:54.680 | - No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:00:55.740 | And I definitely, I'm definitely gonna answer it,

00:00:57.600 | but I'm gonna give a long-winded answer if that's okay.

00:00:59.360 | - Great, yeah.

00:01:00.200 | - Because I want to give credible information.

00:01:02.460 | - Yeah, that's the only information we're interested in.

00:01:05.080 | - And I don't want to come down on one side that,

00:01:07.420 | vaccines are 100% safe, there's no question about it.

00:01:10.420 | Or, yes, vaccines cause autism,

00:01:13.460 | and that's why we've got skyrocketing rates of autism,

00:01:15.460 | because I don't think either of those extreme positions is true.

00:01:18.420 | - So, I want to first back up and just ask a slightly different question.

00:01:26.180 | Is there any evidence that high levels of inflammation impair mitochondrial function?

00:01:32.260 | The answer to that is unequivocally yes.

00:01:35.260 | High levels of inflammation, inflammatory cytokines like TNF-alpha, interleukin-6, and others impair mitochondrial function.

00:01:45.140 | We know that. It is clear and unequivocal.

00:01:48.240 | And there are physiological reasons for it.

00:01:52.200 | The organism has to adapt.

00:01:54.200 | So when you have the flu, do you have neuropsychiatric symptoms?

00:02:00.240 | Yes, you do. You're going to feel exhausted.

00:02:03.340 | You're going to be less risk-taking.

00:02:07.340 | You are not going to want to reproduce, more than likely.

00:02:11.340 | You're going to completely lose your libido.

00:02:13.340 | Completely lose it.

00:02:15.340 | Like, zero interest.

00:02:17.340 | And what are you going to want to do?

00:02:19.300 | You're going to want to hide in bed and pull the covers over you and just retreat from the world for safety.

00:02:27.340 | Those are all effects on your mood, your motivation, rewarding behaviors, all sorts of things.

00:02:36.640 | The inflammation, the infection is doing that to you.

00:02:40.580 | And we know that it's inflammation because this happens with cancer.

00:02:43.680 | It happens with treatments that cause inflammation.

00:02:46.880 | If we give treatments that cause high levels of inflammation, people experience these symptoms acutely.

00:02:53.480 | If we give interferon, for example, which can be a treatment for some disorders, people will acutely develop all of these symptoms.

00:03:04.880 | So we know that interferon itself will produce all of these neuropsychiatric symptoms.

00:03:11.880 | We also know from basic cell biology, interferon interferes with mitochondrial function.

00:03:19.380 | We know that it is unequivocal.

00:03:21.180 | We now let's go to autism.

00:03:24.480 | Is there any evidence that inflammation can lead to autism?

00:03:29.880 | We have decades of evidence for this.

00:03:34.180 | We know that over the course of the last century, as there were kind of outbreaks of bacterial or viral infections in the population, we saw higher rates of neuropsychiatric, neurodevelopmental disorders in the offspring of the pregnant women.

00:04:00.680 | So we've long known that.

00:04:03.680 | And that evidence is pretty well established.

00:04:06.680 | For instance, forgive me, but the one that I'm aware of is that flu in pregnant mothers at the first to second trimester transition is correlated with statistically higher incidence of schizophrenia in the offspring.

00:04:22.680 | Do I have that right?

00:04:23.680 | That's correct.

00:04:24.680 | But then there was a rubella outbreak that resulted in much higher rates of autism in the offspring.

00:04:34.680 | I think that was in the 1960s.

00:04:37.680 | And now we have really decades of animal models.

00:04:43.680 | So they take mice and they inject them with lipopolysaccharide, which causes an inflammatory reaction.

00:04:53.680 | And when they do this to pregnant mice, the mice that are born to those women, those female mice, are at much higher risk for showing signs or symptoms of what looks like a neurodevelopmental disorder.

00:05:12.680 | It's different diagnosing or whatever, a neurodevelopmental condition in a mouse.

00:05:19.680 | Sure.

00:05:20.680 | Sure.

00:05:21.680 | Is it 100%?

00:05:22.680 | No.

00:05:23.680 | It's just we increase the risk.

00:05:26.680 | So if you inject a pregnant mouse with lipopolysaccharide, can she, can that mouse still have a normal appearing mouse?

00:05:38.680 | Yes.

00:05:39.680 | But can't, but the probability that the offspring will have a neurodevelopmental, symptoms of a neurodevelopmental condition increase.

00:05:49.680 | That is where so much of the autism research has been focused.

00:05:54.680 | It's trying to understand this, trying to understand what is happening with inflammation.

00:06:00.680 | How does that impact neurodevelopment?

00:06:04.680 | We know that.

00:06:06.680 | So now back to the question that you posed.

00:06:09.680 | Is there any possibility that vaccines could contribute to that process?

00:06:17.680 | Do vaccines increase inflammation?

00:06:21.680 | I think the answer to that is yes.

00:06:24.680 | Is there variation in the inflammatory response between different people?

00:06:30.680 | I think the answer to that is yes.

00:06:34.680 | Can some people have a hyper-exaggerated inflammatory response in response to a vaccine?

00:06:44.680 | In that condition, so in that rare, less common condition where somebody is having a hyper-exaggerated inflammatory response to a vaccination, could that impact neurodevelopment?

00:07:05.680 | The science right now says yes.

00:07:10.680 | We have no reason to think it wouldn't.

00:07:13.680 | There's one case of a young child who already had an existing mitochondrial disorder.

00:07:24.680 | It was already known.

00:07:25.680 | It was already known.

00:07:27.680 | She got vaccines.

00:07:30.680 | And I think within days or weeks of getting the vaccinations, she developed profound neurodevelopmental symptoms.

00:07:40.680 | That case won a lawsuit.

00:07:45.680 | It went to court.

00:07:47.680 | It was tried in court.

00:07:49.680 | And she won.

00:07:50.680 | And the court ruled that the vaccine did, in fact, contribute to this girl's neurodevelopmental condition.

00:07:59.680 | Now, they assumed it was because she had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder.

00:08:05.680 | And I would support that.

00:08:07.680 | It lines up perfectly with what I've been talking about all along.

00:08:12.680 | that people who have vulnerabilities with mitochondria or metabolism, you can only absorb so many hits.

00:08:21.680 | And when you get that final hit that tips kind of the balance to impact neurodevelopment, you can get that.

00:08:31.680 | Now, coming back to the bigger question, so should people get vaccinated or not?

00:08:38.680 | We do have reasonably good evidence that unvaccinated people are more likely to develop autism than vaccinated people.

00:08:52.680 | Is that right?

00:08:53.680 | The problem with that study is that it's a retrospective cohort epidemiological study.

00:09:03.680 | And the biggest critique that I have of that type of research is that the researchers decide what they control for and what they don't control for.

00:09:13.680 | But the existing research right now, as published and as designed, suggests that if you don't get a vaccine, you're more likely to develop autism than if you do get a vaccine.

00:09:29.680 | And how would I understand that?

00:09:31.680 | I just talked about it.

00:09:32.680 | Infections themselves can cause neurodevelopmental disorders.

00:09:37.680 | So if a child gets measles, they're not only at risk of dying of measles, they're also at risk of impacting their mitochondrial function and developing a neurodevelopmental disorder as a result of getting a severe infection.

00:09:52.680 | Assuming there's choice.

00:09:53.680 | Assuming there's choice, there's a risk-benefit analysis.

00:09:55.680 | Do you want the potential inflammation from the vaccine or lack of inflammation?

00:10:02.680 | You run the gamble.

00:10:03.680 | It's hard to predict who's going to have a big inflammatory response and who's not.

00:10:06.680 | It is.

00:10:07.680 | Although I'm thinking in the back of my mind about these lifestyle factors, even though it's a young child or an adolescent in some cases, but young children typically.

00:10:17.680 | There are things that you can do to bolster the health of that kid going into a vaccine if you're choosing to vaccinate your kids, right?

00:10:25.680 | Like proper sleep, proper nutrition, proper everything.

00:10:28.680 | You wouldn't want them even slightly sleep deprived because that would increase the risk of inflammation, right?

00:10:34.680 | I mean, these things compound as I understand it.

00:10:37.680 | So, you know, I think what most all parents really want is a sense of control over what are inevitably a mixture of controllable and uncontrollable factors.

00:10:50.680 | And this is what I hear when I really listen to this debate about vaccines.

00:10:54.680 | I hear my science colleagues inevitably saying, OK, the Wakefield data were BS, et cetera.

00:11:01.680 | Like, no, no, no.

00:11:02.680 | There's no possibility.

00:11:03.680 | And then I hear parents who are having kids whose kids are due for vaccines.

00:11:08.680 | And they're like, I don't know what to do.

00:11:11.680 | They're they're terrified.

00:11:12.680 | And these are smart people.

00:11:14.680 | And they don't know what to believe anymore.

00:11:16.680 | That's the challenge.

00:11:17.680 | I mean, the science that I just laid out is true.

00:11:20.680 | It's clear.

00:11:22.680 | And again, we've got decades of research to support most of what I've just said.

00:11:29.680 | All of what I've just said, I think.

00:11:32.680 | If you understand the biology.

00:11:37.680 | When a child begins to show symptoms of a neurodevelopmental disorder.

00:11:47.680 | Instead of assigning a label.

00:11:50.680 | This is autism.

00:11:52.680 | It's a life sentence.

00:11:55.680 | Good luck.

00:11:58.680 | We should be intervening.

00:12:01.680 | And what could we do to intervene?

00:12:04.680 | What you just said in terms of prevention strategies.

00:12:07.680 | Absolutely.

00:12:08.680 | Let's make sure that even before you're going to the doctor.

00:12:12.680 | Even before you're exposing yourself to any of these vaccines.

00:12:17.680 | That you're healthy.

00:12:18.680 | Why?

00:12:19.680 | Because we want you to be healthy.

00:12:20.680 | Why wouldn't you want to be healthy?

00:12:22.680 | So let's just be healthy.

00:12:24.680 | But I would actually go much further.

00:12:27.680 | And say as soon as a child begins to show signs or symptoms.

00:12:32.680 | Especially when it's an abrupt change.

00:12:35.680 | When they were developing in a neurotypical way.

00:12:39.680 | And then all of a sudden they got an infection.

00:12:41.680 | Or they got a vaccine.

00:12:43.680 | Or something happened.

00:12:44.680 | And now they are falling off the trajectory.

00:12:48.680 | And that's what we hear from these parents who are saying.

00:12:52.680 | No, this is real.

00:12:53.680 | This is.

00:12:54.680 | That's why they believe vaccines cause it.

00:12:57.680 | Do I think it was just the vaccine on its own?

00:13:00.680 | I suspect a lot of them have had other hits.

00:13:03.680 | They probably had other vulnerabilities going into that vaccination.

00:13:08.680 | And that the vaccination.

00:13:11.680 | If we even entertain the possibility that that vaccine.

00:13:15.680 | Did contribute to their autism.

00:13:17.680 | I'm doubtful that it was the sole only cause.

00:13:21.680 | I'm doubtful that it was the sole cause.

00:13:24.680 | But regardless.

00:13:26.680 | Once the kid starts showing signs or symptoms.

00:13:28.680 | We should be doing a full workup.

00:13:32.680 | We should be looking for vitamin and nutrient deficiencies.

00:13:35.680 | We should be looking for this central B12 deficiency.

00:13:38.680 | Did the vaccine somehow cause an autoimmune reaction to CD320.

00:13:43.680 | So that now this kid has central B12 deficiency.

00:13:46.680 | And that is why this kid is falling off the chart.

00:13:50.680 | Should we entertain a ketogenic diet for this child?

00:13:56.680 | I would say yes.

00:13:57.680 | We should.

00:13:58.680 | That should be on the table of options.

00:14:01.680 | We might want to put this child on a ketogenic diet.

00:14:06.680 | Does that ever happen?

00:14:07.680 | It happens all the time in kids with epilepsy.

00:14:09.680 | So why not do it for neurodevelopmental conditions?

00:14:13.680 | But again.

00:14:14.680 | It's not just keto diet is going to save the day.

00:14:16.680 | And we don't have to think about central B12 deficiency.

00:14:19.680 | Or any of these other things.

00:14:20.680 | Like let's put it all together.

00:14:22.680 | And especially with AI now.

00:14:24.680 | We can do this.

00:14:26.680 | This is a solvable puzzle.

00:14:27.680 | It is a complex puzzle.

00:14:29.680 | No doubt.

00:14:30.680 | But it is a solvable puzzle.

00:14:32.680 | And we should start to solve it.

00:14:34.680 | But right now.

00:14:35.680 | Right now.

00:14:36.680 | The state of the field is that we assign a label autism.

00:14:39.680 | And we tell the parents to just prepare for a disabled child.

00:14:47.680 | Just prepare yourself to take care of a disabled child for life.

00:14:52.680 | We're really sorry.

00:14:53.680 | We don't have anything more to offer.

00:14:56.680 | We can do some ABA training.

00:14:58.680 | We can do some basic, you know, we'll try to teach them some social skills.

00:15:02.680 | But the real outcome data on that is pretty bad.

00:15:08.680 | If your brain's not working right, it's hard to teach people how to do the skills that the brain is designed to do.

00:15:18.680 | And that's the challenge is that it's all well and good to recognize a problem.

00:15:24.680 | But now we need to come up with effective treatments.

00:15:26.680 | And we know that a lot of the, you know, people talk about early intervention with autism as though early intervention is going to save the day.

00:15:35.680 | I don't mean to bash the people doing that work.

00:15:40.680 | Let's do anything we can.

00:15:43.680 | It might help a little, but when you look at the outcome data, it's not helping much.

00:15:50.680 | And when you look at the statistics of the prevalence of autism, it's going through the roof.

00:15:55.680 | So those strategies are just not working.

00:15:57.680 | They're not working for prevention.

00:15:59.680 | They're not working to improve long-term outcomes.

00:16:02.680 | They're not.

00:16:03.680 | I mean, we have a lot of work to do.

00:16:05.680 | So I appreciate the thoroughness of your answer.

00:16:08.680 | I can, um, promise you that, uh, anything we put out about that will include the full context.

00:16:14.680 | We were not, we're not, we'll take the sound bite.

00:16:17.680 | Well, if they do, I'm going to get, I'm going to get rabid, um, by posting the preamble because it's very important that people hear the full context.

00:16:25.680 | It's, um, and I, I really appreciate you, uh, embracing that topic with the, the depth and rigor and, uh, sensitivity also that, that you do.

00:16:35.680 | Uh, because I don't think we can, um, duck this vaccine question anymore.

00:16:41.680 | Um, I never thought in my lifetime that vaccines would be a thing.

00:16:46.680 | It's like when I was a kid, everyone got the polio vaccine, the measles vaccine, and then kind of went about our way.

00:16:52.680 | I do understand the number of vaccines that kids are getting now.

00:16:55.680 | Like the vaccine schedule has expanded.

00:16:57.680 | Um, uh, yeah, I've been, um, kind of thrown into the middle of this as different guests have come on this podcast.

00:17:05.680 | Who've said they do get the flu vaccine, others who say they don't.

00:17:08.680 | And, you know, gosh, if ever there was a separator besides Democrat versus Republican, it's this vaccine thing.

00:17:14.680 | Um, it's really like V separator.

00:17:17.680 | Uh, it's sort of, it's, it's so closely tied to, um, believes in science, doesn't believe in science.

00:17:23.680 | Like that's the, those are the stereotypes, right?

00:17:25.680 | Or, um, suspicious of science, NIH and CDC, or believes in science, NIH and the CDC wholeheartedly.

00:17:32.680 | Like the, the divide is very stark and this needs to stop.

00:17:36.680 | Like the, the divide needs to stop.

00:17:38.680 | We, we need to start filling in with answers.

00:17:40.680 | Um, and I think there's soon to be a exploration, uh, a scientific exploration of the relationship between vaccines and autism.

00:17:48.680 | I read this someplace on X, which means, but I think that's the idea.

00:17:53.680 | And I think some people were kind of upset that this, that resources were going to be devoted to this.

00:17:57.680 | Cause they felt like it was, it was a done deal.

00:17:59.680 | And then others are very excited because they feel like, Hey, listen, if, if you don't think there's a, a link, then there, here's an opportunity to, to establish that with, with real rigor.

00:18:09.680 | And I think everyone's just really interested in the studies being done properly.

00:18:13.680 | Um, I look, I think more data is always great.

00:18:16.680 | I don't disagree.

00:18:17.680 | I've, and I've, I've actually talked to some former NIMH directors about this and some other leading people in this field.

00:18:25.680 | And there's no doubt that this topic has been brought up multiple times at the NIH.

00:18:33.680 | So there's this interagency, um, coordinating committee, um, on autism, uh, within, uh, among all of the NIH kind of centers and institutes.

00:18:47.680 | It's existed for decades.

00:18:49.680 | Yeah.

00:18:50.680 | Yeah.

00:18:51.680 | Yeah.

00:18:52.680 | Um, I've talked to some autism advocates who've said, like, I was hoping that vaccines might be the cause.

00:19:01.680 | Like I was really hoping to see the vaccines are the cause because that would then give us a cause and it would lead us to interventions, um, to make vaccines safer or whatever.

00:19:13.680 | Um, and she said, but it's just not there.

00:19:17.680 | It's just not there.

00:19:18.680 | And this former NIMH director that I spoke with, it's just not there.

00:19:23.680 | Chris, it's not there.

00:19:24.680 | Um, it, we looked, we looked high and low.

00:19:27.680 | Um, again, I'm not sure that everybody looked with the same degree of scrutiny.

00:19:37.680 | Again, the study that I saw looked at people who are unvaccinated by choice.

00:19:43.680 | So these are rebellious people who are defying state laws, who are risking not getting their children into schools because they're not getting vaccinations.

00:19:56.680 | That's the cohort of unvaccinated people.

00:20:01.680 | Um, and then they're comparing them to the cohort of vaccinated people.

00:20:06.680 | And they only controlled for like, I like two or three variables.

00:20:13.680 | They did not control for obesity.

00:20:16.680 | They didn't control for diabetes.

00:20:18.680 | And we know that obesity and diabetes play a role in risk for autism.

00:20:22.680 | And we know that people who have existing health conditions might actually be more likely to be worried about vaccines and then not get vaccines.

00:20:35.680 | Perfectly happy, healthy, thriving people usually just go along with status quo.

00:20:41.680 | They usually don't refuse vaccines.

00:20:43.680 | So people who are refusing vaccines probably had some preexisting health condition.

00:20:49.680 | They didn't control for that.

00:20:51.680 | Did that preexisting health condition increase risk for autism?

00:20:56.680 | Probably.

00:20:57.680 | Well, if there's an inflammation link, then yes.

00:21:00.680 | Like, like probably.

00:21:01.680 | I mean, you look at any preexisting health condition and does it increase risk for other health conditions?

00:21:07.680 | Probably the answer is yes.

00:21:08.680 | So we know that like women with obesity, much more likely, twice as likely to have an autistic child.

00:21:15.680 | Is that right?

00:21:16.680 | Yeah.

00:21:17.680 | Meta analysis over 3 million people.

00:21:19.680 | Women with obesity have double the risk of having an autistic child.

00:21:23.680 | Have rates of obesity been skyrocketing in our population?

00:21:28.680 | The answer is yes.

00:21:29.680 | Are pregnant women also in that camp of obese women?

00:21:33.680 | Yes.

00:21:34.680 | Well, that accounts for a doubling of autism.

00:21:37.680 | Same deal with, um, diabetes.

00:21:42.680 | Women who have diabetes, twice as likely to have autistic children as women who don't have diabetes.

00:21:50.680 | When you put the two together, obese and diabetic, quadruple the rate of autism in the offspring.

00:21:58.680 | What about dad?

00:21:59.680 | You know, there, there are these theories about the statistically significant increases in rates of autism for offspring of men who are 50 or older.

00:22:09.680 | My read of the data is that it's still a very small increase.

00:22:15.680 | It's not like the kind of increases you're describing here for diabetes.

00:22:18.680 | It is.

00:22:19.680 | It is.

00:22:20.680 | So men with obesity, twice as likely to have an autistic child as men who are not obese.

00:22:26.680 | Yeah.

00:22:27.680 | Which is, which is, um, something like 25 times greater than the increase due to age of the male.

00:22:34.680 | Yeah.

00:22:35.680 | So this is so important because people hear, oh, you know, uh, older sperm equals higher probability of autism, but yes, still a very low probability of autism compared to dad is obese, but in his twenties or thirties.

00:22:47.680 | Yes.

00:22:48.680 | And so, you know, a lot of people are hyper-focused on vaccines cause autism and they come back to rates of autism are skyrocketing.

00:22:57.680 | There has to be a reason.

00:22:58.680 | Well, I agree.

00:23:00.680 | Rates of autism are skyrocketing.

00:23:02.680 | I agree.

00:23:03.680 | There does have to be a reason.

00:23:04.680 | Maybe we're missing the elephant in the room.

00:23:07.680 | Rates of metabolic poor health are skyrocketing in our population.

00:23:13.680 | Rates of obesity and diabetes are skyrocketing, but rates of poor metabolic health.

00:23:18.680 | So metabolic syndrome has five biomarkers, you know, abdominal obesity, blood pressure, um, uh, glucose, high levels of glucose, and then high triglycerides and low HDL cholesterol.

00:23:35.680 | Those are the five biomarkers.

00:23:36.680 | Those are the five biomarkers of metabolic syndrome.

00:23:38.680 | Only 7% of Americans are healthy in all five biomarkers.

00:23:47.680 | only 7%.

00:23:52.680 | Poor metabolic health influences neurodevelopment in offspring.

00:24:00.680 | We know that.

00:24:01.680 | So we've, we see skyrocketing rates of autism.

00:24:04.680 | It's not just autism.

00:24:05.680 | We see skyrocketing rates of ADHD as well, simultaneously.

00:24:09.680 | And everybody's scratching their heads trying to figure out where's all this autism coming from?

00:24:14.680 | Where's all this ADHD coming from?

00:24:16.680 | Well, look around people.