Ryan Hall: Martial Arts and the Philosophy of Violence, Power, and Grace

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Ryan Hall,

00:00:02.860 | one of the most insightful minds and systems thinkers

00:00:05.460 | in the martial arts world.

00:00:07.000 | He's a black belt in jiu-jitsu, accomplished competitor,

00:00:10.000 | an MMA fighter undefeated in the UFC,

00:00:13.120 | and truly a philosopher who seeks to understand

00:00:16.880 | the underlying principles of the martial arts.

00:00:19.760 | Jiu-jitsu is such an important part of who I am,

00:00:22.280 | and I was hoping to share that with folks

00:00:23.880 | who might know me only as a researcher.

00:00:26.640 | I think there is no better person to do that with

00:00:28.920 | than Ryan, who somehow, remarkably, I can say is a friend,

00:00:33.920 | and also a modern day warrior philosopher

00:00:37.080 | of the Miyamoto Musashi line,

00:00:39.000 | of especially dangerous and brilliant humans.

00:00:41.680 | Also, his amazing wife, Jen Hall, was there as well,

00:00:46.480 | so if you hear a kind of voice of wisdom coming from above,

00:00:50.600 | you know who it is.

00:00:51.780 | Quick summary of the sponsors,

00:00:53.360 | PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App.

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00:01:01.960 | As a side note, let me say that renaming this podcast

00:01:05.520 | to just my name gave me intellectual freedom

00:01:09.320 | that I really didn't anticipate was so empowering,

00:01:12.120 | especially for someone who's trying to find their voice.

00:01:15.240 | I hope you'll allow me the chance to really try and do that,

00:01:18.080 | to step outside of AI, and even science, engineering,

00:01:21.560 | history, and so on, and on occasion,

00:01:24.680 | talk to athletes, musicians, writers,

00:01:28.120 | and maybe even comedians who inspire me,

00:01:31.720 | especially up-and-coming comedians and musicians

00:01:34.400 | like Eric Weinstein,

00:01:35.800 | who, yes, we'll do a third conversation with soon.

00:01:39.280 | I think if I allow myself to expand the range

00:01:41.480 | of these conversations on occasion,

00:01:43.600 | when I do return to science and engineering,

00:01:45.440 | I'll bring a new perspective,

00:01:47.200 | and also a little bit more fun,

00:01:49.720 | and a few extra listeners that may not otherwise realize

00:01:54.080 | how fascinating artificial intelligence, robotics,

00:01:57.320 | mathematics, and engineering truly is.

00:02:00.840 | All that said, please skip the episodes

00:02:03.440 | that don't interest you.

00:02:04.480 | You don't have to listen to all of them.

00:02:06.800 | Trust me, as someone who is a bit or a lot OCD,

00:02:11.120 | that idea is quite unpleasant.

00:02:13.120 | But life, friends, is full of unpleasant things.

00:02:17.600 | But as Hunter S. Thompson suggested,

00:02:19.480 | and I suggest as well,

00:02:21.000 | you should still buy the ticket and take the ride.

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00:02:34.640 | As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now,

00:02:36.720 | and no ads in the middle.

00:02:38.080 | I try to make these interesting,

00:02:39.820 | but I give you the timestamp,

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00:02:43.880 | but it does mean a lot to me when you do.

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00:02:49.620 | It really is the best way to support this podcast.

00:02:52.760 | This show is sponsored by PowerDot.

00:02:55.080 | Get it at PowerDot.com/Lex,

00:02:57.200 | and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off.

00:03:01.440 | I use it for muscle recovery for legs and shoulders,

00:03:04.100 | but you can also use it to build muscle,

00:03:06.760 | endurance, or even just warmup.

00:03:09.240 | In fact, I first heard about this kind of

00:03:11.480 | electrical muscle stimulation device

00:03:13.800 | in reading that Bruce Lee used it.

00:03:16.000 | He was an inspiration to me

00:03:18.120 | as someone who practices first principles thinking,

00:03:21.700 | especially in a discipline

00:03:22.780 | where conventional thinking is everywhere.

00:03:25.140 | He created a martial art called Jeet Kune Do

00:03:27.280 | that is in many ways,

00:03:29.040 | at least philosophically in his hybrid approach,

00:03:31.440 | a precursor to modern day mixed martial arts.

00:03:34.380 | There's a special kind of deep philosophical thinking

00:03:36.860 | that combat athletes or jiu-jitsu practitioners do

00:03:40.100 | that is unlike any other.

00:03:42.480 | I think it's grounded in the humbling process

00:03:45.500 | of getting your ass kicked a lot.

00:03:47.980 | That removes any illusion of intellectual superiority.

00:03:51.100 | I think the journey towards wisdom

00:03:52.840 | starts when you humbly admit to yourself

00:03:55.440 | that you know very little or almost nothing.

00:03:58.920 | Anyway, go to PowerDot.com/Lex

00:04:01.340 | and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off

00:04:04.540 | on top of the 30 day free trial.

00:04:07.300 | This show is also sponsored by Babbel,

00:04:09.660 | an app and website that gets you speaking

00:04:11.860 | in a new language within weeks.

00:04:14.020 | Go to Babbel.com and use code Lex to get three months free.

00:04:17.960 | They offer 14 languages, including Spanish, French,

00:04:21.000 | Italian, German, and yes, Russian.

00:04:24.220 | Let me read a few lines from a Russian song

00:04:26.500 | by Vladimir Vysotsky called "Ona Bala V Parizha."

00:04:30.180 | You'll start to understand if you sign up to Babbel.

00:04:33.320 | (speaking in foreign language)

00:04:37.240 | This song always made me smile

00:04:46.920 | 'cause it resonates with my own life.

00:04:48.940 | It translates loosely to "She's Been to Paris."

00:04:52.460 | Paris for Russian, I suppose, symbolizing a fancy life

00:04:55.940 | and that the guy can never quite fit

00:04:57.500 | into that kind of life.

00:04:58.880 | Expensive things, nice restaurants, cars, all of that.

00:05:02.060 | I was thinking about what song is equivalent in English.

00:05:04.840 | Maybe "Uptown Girl" by Billy Joel is similar in spirit,

00:05:08.780 | but very different in style.

00:05:10.260 | I just watched a video on YouTube for "Uptown Girl"

00:05:13.700 | and it's basically Billy Joel dressed up as a mechanic,

00:05:18.080 | but dancing in a way that I'm pretty sure

00:05:20.220 | no mechanic has ever danced,

00:05:22.520 | turning the old cringe factor up to 11.

00:05:25.320 | Anyway, I always felt like I didn't really fit in

00:05:27.680 | with the fancy people,

00:05:28.720 | and that's what this song represents.

00:05:30.880 | But back to Babbel.

00:05:32.360 | Get started by visiting babbel.com

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00:05:37.460 | This show is presented by the great, the powerful,

00:05:40.000 | the OG sponsor, named unofficially

00:05:42.020 | after one of my favorite musicians,

00:05:43.920 | the man in black, Johnny Cash.

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00:06:00.480 | I've been thinking of doing some kind of little contest

00:06:03.080 | and giving away 42 bucks to a bunch of people who win.

00:06:07.720 | It's not so much about the money,

00:06:08.960 | but the glory and a delicious taste of victory.

00:06:13.500 | If you have ideas for a contest, let me know.

00:06:15.960 | I was thinking of something like asking people

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00:06:29.100 | like different weird places you might be watching

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00:06:34.120 | I'm pretty sure there's somebody out there right now

00:06:37.020 | sitting in a hot tub with some wine, watching me say this.

00:06:41.040 | "I salute you, sir or madam."

00:06:44.120 | I may be opening up some floodgates I deeply regret later,

00:06:47.800 | so please make sure you're wearing clothes

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00:07:14.380 | and STEM education for young people around the world.

00:07:17.900 | And now, here's my conversation with Ryan Hall.

00:07:21.500 | Who, in your view, is the greatest warrior in history,

00:07:25.620 | ancient or modern?

00:07:27.180 | - That's a tough question,

00:07:28.220 | and again, I'm no historian by any measure,

00:07:31.540 | so I'll probably do the worst.

00:07:32.980 | It's like, "What are your best bands ever?"

00:07:34.220 | I'm like, "Metallica," and so I'll pick the--

00:07:37.720 | - Metallica just came out with a new album, by the way,

00:07:39.580 | with an entire orchestra.

00:07:41.760 | - That's kinda cool.

00:07:42.600 | That's important.

00:07:43.420 | - Metallica will always be one of the greatest,

00:07:45.520 | so I agree with you. - Yeah, they were a bad example.

00:07:47.320 | They were a well-known yet awesome band.

00:07:49.040 | Let me say Nickelback or something like that,

00:07:50.960 | but that feels cheap

00:07:52.240 | because everyone makes fun of Nickelback.

00:07:53.920 | I don't know, I guess it depends

00:07:55.240 | on how you wanna define warrior.

00:07:56.800 | Something that I think about

00:07:58.120 | when it comes to trying to evaluate

00:08:00.440 | various people or situations

00:08:02.480 | or things that I've read about or heard about

00:08:04.240 | are the circumstances that they were involved in

00:08:07.800 | because I think a lot of times

00:08:09.400 | it's easy to look at the outcomes,

00:08:11.040 | and obviously we live in an outcome-driven world

00:08:13.000 | and outcomes do matter,

00:08:14.600 | but at the same time, you look at,

00:08:18.680 | let's say what Cuba's been able to pull off

00:08:20.720 | from a combat sports perspective.

00:08:22.160 | It's staggering,

00:08:23.680 | the amount of successful Olympic-level competitors

00:08:26.760 | they have in wrestling, boxing, judo.

00:08:28.600 | I mean, they're a tiny little island

00:08:31.200 | with no money and no people.

00:08:32.680 | That's shocking.

00:08:34.000 | When you think about the Olympics

00:08:35.760 | and the United States doing well,

00:08:36.800 | of course we should do well.

00:08:37.800 | I mean, Russia should do well, China should do well.

00:08:40.560 | India should do better than they do, honestly.

00:08:42.800 | Obviously it means they're not into it as much,

00:08:44.520 | or at least certain sports,

00:08:45.760 | because they have the resources people-wise.

00:08:48.000 | So talent's not gonna be an issue.

00:08:49.940 | - So there's something to where the starting point is.

00:08:54.120 | That's the argument with why people say Maradona.

00:08:57.760 | I don't know if you're into soccer.

00:08:59.520 | - Okay.

00:09:00.720 | - They say Maradona is better than Messi

00:09:03.160 | because he basically carried the team

00:09:05.320 | and won the World Cup

00:09:06.680 | with a team that wouldn't otherwise win the World Cup.

00:09:09.040 | And then Messi was only successful in Barcelona

00:09:12.960 | because he has superstars.

00:09:15.680 | He's playing with other superstars.

00:09:17.360 | - Right.

00:09:18.180 | Yeah, that's fair to say.

00:09:19.320 | I mean, like you know,

00:09:20.160 | there's a lot of factors that go into,

00:09:21.680 | let's say, winning a soccer game.

00:09:23.360 | And obviously Barcelona,

00:09:24.960 | particularly for various points in time,

00:09:26.400 | had a ridiculous all-star squad of world-class players.

00:09:29.680 | But, and let's say for instance,

00:09:32.040 | maybe they didn't have the creative players in Argentina.

00:09:34.160 | They needed to get the ball up to Messi.

00:09:35.760 | You know, they didn't have like the NES,

00:09:37.960 | and again, the backing there in the midfield.

00:09:41.200 | But, because obviously Argentina's always had

00:09:44.000 | ridiculous attacking players,

00:09:45.280 | like even alongside Messi,

00:09:46.320 | but they're like the three killers up front

00:09:48.120 | and then a little less behind.

00:09:50.640 | - So it's interesting you say that,

00:09:52.920 | depends how you define warrior,

00:09:54.160 | 'cause you could probably take like

00:09:55.920 | some of the civil rights leaders.

00:09:57.720 | You can go into that direction,

00:09:59.120 | like leaders in general.

00:10:00.400 | But if we just look at like

00:10:01.680 | the greatest martial artists in history in that direction,

00:10:04.800 | do you have somebody in mind?

00:10:05.720 | - I would say at least three.

00:10:07.200 | Three that pop into my head would be Hannibal,

00:10:11.960 | Alexander the Great,

00:10:12.920 | and then maybe Miyamoto Musashi.

00:10:14.920 | You know, the two commanders and then one guy.

00:10:18.600 | But, so it's interesting.

00:10:21.280 | And then again, you mentioned warriors

00:10:22.760 | being able to make a lot out of a little.

00:10:25.400 | Musashi's famous for winning duels,

00:10:27.640 | you know, that were oftentimes one on one.

00:10:30.840 | You know, the Alexander and Hannibal

00:10:33.440 | were military commanders and one of them faced Rome.

00:10:36.760 | And that was an interesting thing.

00:10:38.280 | Oftentimes, you know, coming up with novel tactics,

00:10:40.600 | different strategies, sometimes under resourced,

00:10:43.680 | doing, having to do novel and crazy things.

00:10:45.520 | There's skin in the game.

00:10:46.760 | That's an interesting thing too.

00:10:47.840 | I think a lot of times, you know, it's a,

00:10:49.840 | if you're playing a video game,

00:10:50.800 | I don't think you can be a warrior

00:10:51.920 | because there's no skin in the game.

00:10:53.760 | You get hurt, you lose, and it's a bummer.

00:10:55.920 | It stings a little bit.

00:10:56.840 | Maybe it makes you feel slightly disappointed,

00:10:58.800 | but you know, Musashi loses, he loses.

00:11:02.760 | Hannibal loses, he loses.

00:11:04.160 | Alexander loses, he loses.

00:11:05.360 | And they lose, I guess the people around them lose.

00:11:08.080 | So that's almost like you could use,

00:11:10.720 | even from a combat sports perspective,

00:11:12.520 | Muhammad Ali, I mean, you consider also

00:11:14.280 | their quality of opposition.

00:11:15.800 | Musashi was fighting high quality opposition.

00:11:17.920 | Obviously Hannibal and Alexander, particularly Hannibal,

00:11:20.320 | were fighting unbelievable opposition.

00:11:22.280 | Muhammad Ali fought phenomenal opposition,

00:11:25.200 | but he had skin in the game, both in the ring and out.

00:11:27.240 | And that actually meshes with, as you mentioned,

00:11:29.320 | like a civil rights type of situation

00:11:31.320 | where you are under-resourced,

00:11:32.960 | you're pushing the stone uphill.

00:11:35.000 | And that was a neat thing, I think,

00:11:36.720 | about Muhammad Ali was how much personal conviction

00:11:40.360 | the man had to have in order to pull off

00:11:41.720 | what he was able to pull off,

00:11:42.560 | both in and outside of the ring.

00:11:44.640 | And that reminds me of, again,

00:11:46.680 | some of the other great leaders

00:11:47.600 | or great fighters throughout history.

00:11:48.880 | - So what do you make of the kind of very difficult idea

00:11:53.400 | that some of these conquerors like Alexander the Great

00:11:56.640 | and somebody that, if you listen to hardcore history,

00:12:00.920 | Oden Carlin, who apparently Elon Musk

00:12:04.000 | is also a big fan of, is the Genghis Khan episode.

00:12:07.440 | A large percent of the world

00:12:14.400 | can call Genghis Khan an ancestor.

00:12:20.160 | So the difficult truth is about some of these conquerors

00:12:24.240 | is that there's a lot of murder and rape and pillage

00:12:28.920 | and stealing of resources and all that kind of stuff.

00:12:32.240 | And yet they're often remembered as quite honorable.

00:12:37.120 | I mean, in the case of Genghis Khan,

00:12:38.600 | there's a lot of people who argue,

00:12:39.960 | if you look at historically the way it's described

00:12:43.120 | in full context, is he was ultimately,

00:12:49.200 | given the time, he was a liberator.

00:12:52.320 | He was a progressive, I should say.

00:12:56.020 | In terms of the violence and the atrocities he committed,

00:13:02.280 | he, at least in the stories,

00:13:04.440 | has always provided the option of not to do that.

00:13:07.840 | It's only if you resist do,

00:13:10.320 | so you basically have the option,

00:13:11.400 | do you wanna join us or do you want to die and die horribly?

00:13:16.480 | - Yeah, so that's the progressive sort of,

00:13:19.840 | that's the Bernie Sanders of the era.

00:13:21.520 | - Nice.

00:13:22.520 | - So what do you make of that?

00:13:24.240 | That there's so much of these great conquerors,

00:13:27.620 | there's so much murder that to us now would just seem insane.

00:13:32.620 | - It's funny you mentioned it.

00:13:34.400 | I think that maybe it's a human nature thing

00:13:37.240 | that we want to, or maybe a misunderstanding thing

00:13:41.000 | that we want to cast all of our characters and ourselves

00:13:44.260 | maybe as entirely good or as entirely negative

00:13:47.520 | when I guess the phrase or the saying,

00:13:50.680 | one man's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist,

00:13:54.140 | is accurate.

00:13:55.400 | And a lot of times I think you can understand

00:13:57.700 | as long as you're able to look

00:13:59.440 | from various people's perspective.

00:14:00.760 | Like if you look at the TV show "The Wire,"

00:14:03.200 | which was obviously widely, everybody loves "The Wire."

00:14:06.520 | I thought that there were, everyone,

00:14:08.040 | I'm not saying anything that's not been said before,

00:14:10.040 | compelling characters from all angles,

00:14:11.400 | whether you like the character, dislike the character,

00:14:13.640 | you were able to understand the motivations

00:14:15.220 | of people doing various things.

00:14:17.300 | Even if they did wrongly, they did rightly.

00:14:20.160 | We want to cast all of the demons throughout history

00:14:23.740 | as completely inhuman when I think that makes it difficult

00:14:27.060 | for us to understand them.

00:14:27.980 | And we want to look back at the people

00:14:30.580 | that we think of as great and entirely great.

00:14:33.940 | And I think that we're experiencing the problems with this,

00:14:37.220 | even right now, socially and politically

00:14:38.820 | is we're trying to look back and decide

00:14:40.180 | the people we thought were good or not good,

00:14:41.620 | or people we thought were bad are now good,

00:14:43.440 | rather than going, "Hey, there's good and bad to all things.

00:14:46.540 | And there are, as you mentioned, the Genghis Khan thing.

00:14:49.740 | You don't have to fight back."

00:14:51.240 | You do, I respect you for it,

00:14:53.560 | but then we're gonna have a conflict

00:14:54.900 | and then we'll see what happens.

00:14:56.300 | And if you lose, you're gonna be sorry that you did

00:14:58.020 | because I have to make it that way

00:14:59.780 | if I want to continue utilizing this kind of MO

00:15:02.580 | because I need to discourage the next guy

00:15:05.300 | from doing what you're doing right now.

00:15:07.320 | And ultimately though,

00:15:09.040 | I guess that's an interesting thing.

00:15:10.220 | Imagine you put every single person

00:15:11.860 | on planet earth in a cage, crime drops.

00:15:14.720 | Also, there are certain positives to that.

00:15:18.540 | And it's just things are as they are, it's difficult,

00:15:23.100 | but that is ultimately more the law of the jungle.

00:15:25.120 | And I think that we're able to supersede some of that now

00:15:27.880 | in modern times, and I think we're fortunate.

00:15:30.140 | But as you mentioned, we look back and say,

00:15:32.180 | "Oh, this is horrible."

00:15:33.460 | Say, "No, that just is what it is.

00:15:35.600 | That's how life is at a base level."

00:15:37.980 | And again, if you're a lion and I'm a gazelle,

00:15:40.420 | I don't really like it very much,

00:15:42.380 | but we don't call the lion the bad guy.

00:15:44.860 | We don't sanctify the gazelle or the other way around.

00:15:47.820 | So it's interesting when you pull back some of the controls

00:15:51.100 | that we put on our behavior and in modern life,

00:15:54.540 | which I think are generally speaking positive,

00:15:57.020 | we get down to how things often are.

00:15:59.140 | And at the same time,

00:16:01.060 | modern life was built by people like Genghis Khan.

00:16:05.620 | So then you get down to the ends justifying the means.

00:16:09.540 | It's a tough question.

00:16:10.380 | These aren't things with easy answers, or at least if they

00:16:12.220 | are, I certainly don't have the smarts to figure out

00:16:14.540 | the answers to them, but it's difficult.

00:16:18.020 | I would just say people in the world are complicated

00:16:20.100 | and layered, and depending upon which side of the line

00:16:22.100 | you're standing on at various times,

00:16:23.900 | you may like or dislike someone.

00:16:26.700 | But I can't remember whose idea it was,

00:16:30.500 | this is killing me, but it's the veil of ignorance,

00:16:32.140 | I guess, the philosophical idea of the veil of ignorance

00:16:36.740 | where I go, "Is sticking everyone in the cage

00:16:39.540 | the right thing to do?"

00:16:40.860 | And I say, or everyone but me, and I say, "Well, no, why?"

00:16:43.660 | "Well, it would make my life easier if I just went over

00:16:45.500 | and took all of your stuff as long as you couldn't stop me."

00:16:48.020 | I mean, of course, that's a great idea.

00:16:49.100 | That's what everyone does in every video game.

00:16:50.780 | But in Skyrim, you steal stuff when people aren't around.

00:16:53.740 | But ultimately you go, "Well, this isn't the right thing

00:16:57.180 | to do because if I were on the other side of it,

00:16:59.300 | I would not appreciate it.

00:17:01.100 | It's inherently not a good thing to do.

00:17:02.900 | I'm only doing it because I think I'm gonna win."

00:17:05.100 | And that's a fine way to be, but you don't have

00:17:07.740 | the white hat on, I guess I would say.

00:17:09.100 | So I think without those philosophical underpinnings

00:17:12.540 | to rein us in, I guess morally speaking,

00:17:15.480 | it's very difficult to say what's right or wrong.

00:17:17.780 | And you'd say certain actions have a reaction,

00:17:20.420 | almost like a physics sense.

00:17:22.040 | If you kill everyone in your way for as long as you're able

00:17:25.280 | to, your life will be easier.

00:17:27.980 | I mean, you're setting the table for someone doing the same

00:17:30.380 | to you when you're no longer the tough guy,

00:17:31.780 | but it is what it is.

00:17:33.040 | - Yeah, if you look at the Instagram channel,

00:17:36.020 | Nature is Metal, it hurts my heart to watch,

00:17:39.940 | to remind me, a comfortable descendant of ape,

00:17:44.700 | how vicious nature is, just unapologetically,

00:17:49.500 | just, I mean, there's a process to it

00:17:55.220 | where the bad guy always wins.

00:17:57.460 | The violence is the solution to most problems

00:18:04.340 | or the flip side of that, running away from violence

00:18:07.660 | is the solution, depending on your skillset.

00:18:10.340 | And it's funny to think of us humans

00:18:12.800 | with our extra little piece of brain

00:18:15.160 | that we're somehow trying to figure out,

00:18:17.360 | like you said, in a philosophical way,

00:18:18.860 | how to supersede that, how to move past the viciousness,

00:18:23.180 | the cruelty, just the cold exchange of nature.

00:18:28.180 | But perhaps it's not so.

00:18:32.660 | Maybe that is nature, maybe that's the way of life.

00:18:34.900 | Maybe we're trying too hard to,

00:18:37.640 | we're being too egotistical

00:18:41.780 | and thinking we're somehow separate from nature,

00:18:44.580 | we're somehow distant from that very thing.

00:18:46.620 | - I couldn't agree with you more.

00:18:47.700 | In fact, I think actually Orson Scott Card,

00:18:49.740 | who's the writer of a great book called "Ender's Game,"

00:18:52.500 | this was a statement that the main character, Ender,

00:18:57.860 | made in the book, his brother was brilliant.

00:19:00.460 | His brother was like kind of sociopathic, brilliant kid

00:19:04.340 | that was ended up kicked out of the school

00:19:05.860 | that they were all into for battle commander.

00:19:08.140 | Dealing with his brother taught him

00:19:09.420 | that ultimately strength, courage,

00:19:11.400 | the ability to do violence,

00:19:12.980 | for all the good and the bad of that,

00:19:14.420 | is one of the fundamental, most important things

00:19:16.980 | to be able to do in life,

00:19:17.940 | because if you can't cause destruction,

00:19:19.520 | if you can't cause pain,

00:19:20.940 | you will be forever subject to those who can.

00:19:23.180 | And I think that you mentioned egotism.

00:19:25.140 | I think that that's a disease

00:19:26.660 | that could obviously strike any of us,

00:19:28.460 | but it's something that we're looking at now.

00:19:29.780 | We're, you know, I think we should be unbelievably thankful

00:19:33.220 | as people that live in the world that we do,

00:19:35.700 | that we can walk down the street

00:19:38.140 | without having to worry that I'm like,

00:19:39.860 | "Well, don't worry, that six foot six,

00:19:41.620 | "270 pound person over there is just gonna leave me alone.

00:19:44.860 | "And I have a Rolex on, but whatever, I'll be fine,

00:19:47.040 | "because that person is deciding to leave me alone,

00:19:49.140 | "because we've all agreed to live in this relatively,

00:19:52.040 | "you know, sane and or, you know, constrained society,

00:19:54.900 | "because it benefits all of us.

00:19:56.000 | "And we're doing it because of a philosophical underpinning,

00:19:59.060 | "not because nature dictates it be that way,

00:20:00.880 | "because nature dictates it go

00:20:02.220 | "in a very, very different direction.

00:20:03.500 | "And the only person, the only thing stopping that person

00:20:05.560 | "from doing something to me is either me, that person,

00:20:09.660 | "or someone else that will stand in between us.

00:20:11.860 | "And if I can't do it,

00:20:13.320 | "and there's no one there to stand in between us,

00:20:14.960 | "then the only thing stopping that person is that person."

00:20:17.980 | And I have to hope that they're either disinterested

00:20:20.460 | or disinclined to do that sort of thing.

00:20:22.700 | And I think that, you know, it's keeping in mind

00:20:26.140 | that that is the fundamental nature of the world,

00:20:29.260 | whether we like it or not, is important.

00:20:31.880 | And I think the quest to fundamentally alter human nature

00:20:36.060 | is gonna be ultimately fruitless.

00:20:37.620 | And then also it's, it is a little bit egotistical.

00:20:40.020 | A lion does what a lion does, you know,

00:20:42.060 | we can try to box it in and we can try to, you know,

00:20:45.100 | guide this direction, that direction,

00:20:46.740 | but, you know, nature is as it is,

00:20:49.620 | and as it always will be,

00:20:50.620 | unless we wanna start to constrain it significantly.

00:20:53.820 | But now I'm starting to get into individual rights,

00:20:56.580 | who put me in charge?

00:20:57.700 | Who says that I should be the one

00:20:58.820 | to make the choices constraining?

00:21:00.000 | Because many of the most awful things

00:21:01.780 | that have happened throughout history,

00:21:03.340 | one group or one person has decided to constrain others.

00:21:06.780 | And we don't like Genghis Khan doing that?

00:21:09.060 | Well, I'll do that on a little level.

00:21:11.240 | Are there gonna be benefits and beneficiaries?

00:21:13.700 | Absolutely, but there'll be losers in that too.

00:21:16.060 | So I guess it's a dangerous game.

00:21:17.500 | It's almost like putting on the one ring.

00:21:18.940 | You know, we remember when Frodo

00:21:20.060 | offered the one ring to Gandalf,

00:21:21.860 | and Gandalf said, "No, no, I would take it away.

00:21:24.220 | "I would put it on.

00:21:25.320 | "I would use it out of the desire to do good.

00:21:27.360 | "But through me, it would wield a power

00:21:29.180 | "so terrible you can't imagine."

00:21:31.020 | I think that's the big question for anyone

00:21:33.220 | that decides that's able to have reach

00:21:36.020 | and able to have power.

00:21:37.140 | I mean, obviously I can't speak to that,

00:21:39.180 | but imagine you did have national level,

00:21:41.860 | global level power.

00:21:43.340 | How would you use it?

00:21:44.300 | Would you try to change the world?

00:21:46.480 | Would you be glad that you did down the line?

00:21:48.420 | I don't know.

00:21:49.820 | - Yeah, there's a, I mean,

00:21:50.980 | that's the thing we're struggling now as a society.

00:21:52.940 | Maybe it'd be nice to get your quick comment on that,

00:21:55.540 | which is the people who have traditionally been powerless

00:22:00.380 | are now, you know, seeking a fairer society,

00:22:04.100 | a more equal society.

00:22:06.640 | And in attaining more power justly,

00:22:11.640 | there's also a realization, at least from my perspective,

00:22:16.900 | that power corrupts everyone.

00:22:19.820 | Even if you're, even if the flag you wave

00:22:24.300 | is that of justice, right?

00:22:28.580 | And so, you know, not to overuse the term,

00:22:32.380 | but it'd be nice if you have thoughts

00:22:34.060 | about the whole idea of cancel culture and the internet

00:22:37.980 | and Twitter and so on,

00:22:41.020 | where there's nuanced, difficult discussions

00:22:44.500 | of race, of gender, of fairness,

00:22:50.020 | equality, justice, all of these kinds of things.

00:22:53.380 | There's a shouting down, oftentimes,

00:22:56.300 | of nuanced discussion of kind of trying to reason

00:23:01.300 | through these very difficult issues,

00:23:04.940 | through our history, through what our future looks like.

00:23:07.580 | Do you have thoughts about the internet discourse

00:23:10.300 | that's going on now?

00:23:11.580 | Is there something positive?

00:23:13.420 | - Yeah, I mean-- - That we can pull out of this?

00:23:15.540 | - It's an interesting thing to see, I guess.

00:23:17.300 | As you mentioned, any time you're wielding power,

00:23:21.980 | whomever you are, doing so carefully is important.

00:23:24.940 | And it's very, very easy to look at the people

00:23:27.420 | that have power and that are using it poorly,

00:23:30.380 | or have used it poorly, and go, "Hey, you're the bad guy."

00:23:33.420 | And then go, "Well, of course, if I had power,

00:23:35.540 | "I'll use it properly, and I may intend to use it properly,

00:23:38.200 | "and maybe I will."

00:23:39.500 | But at the same time, we see a lot of times,

00:23:44.140 | people are people are people.

00:23:45.480 | I think that a lot of the, I think if you believe

00:23:50.480 | that human beings are all one, which I do,

00:23:53.980 | no matter whether you're here or you're there,

00:23:56.020 | you got two arms, two legs, a heart, a brain,

00:23:58.380 | we all live a similar experience.

00:24:00.940 | And obviously, we have variations on a theme.

00:24:03.140 | But you're no less a human being,

00:24:06.240 | if you're a person I've never met from China,

00:24:08.340 | than some person in Virginia.

00:24:11.100 | It's, we're all people.

00:24:12.780 | And I guess, ultimately, if I believe

00:24:14.460 | that human beings are corruptible, and that power corrupts,

00:24:16.980 | and that we're all fallible, and we say and do things

00:24:20.440 | that either intentionally or unintentionally,

00:24:23.420 | that we wish we'd not, I think that I have to allow

00:24:28.420 | for a space, I guess, with the word,

00:24:31.300 | it's almost a religious term,

00:24:32.380 | but I guess I would just say grace.

00:24:33.740 | And that's something that I see disappearing

00:24:35.480 | from discourse in the public, or maybe it wasn't there,

00:24:38.600 | I'm not sure, but it's interesting,

00:24:40.420 | watching this occur on the internet,

00:24:42.180 | because also now, no longer are you and I

00:24:44.660 | just having a talk sitting on a bus stop,

00:24:47.740 | it's now in writing, everything's in writing.

00:24:49.340 | The old saying, like, don't put that in writing.

00:24:51.500 | You're like, don't put anything in writing,

00:24:52.700 | that's how you get in trouble.

00:24:53.680 | And basically, with the degree

00:24:56.700 | to which everything is recorded,

00:24:57.980 | but recorded in tiny little bites,

00:24:59.480 | it's very, very easy for me to waive

00:25:01.220 | every last little foolish, ignorant, incorrect,

00:25:04.020 | or correct thing that someone has ever said or done

00:25:06.580 | in their face to support whatever argument

00:25:08.980 | that I'm trying to make about them, or a situation.

00:25:11.600 | And I think that you mentioned cancel culture,

00:25:14.940 | or as it seems to exist, obviously this is poisonous,

00:25:17.460 | on its face this is poisonous.

00:25:19.740 | It's the sort of thing that doesn't

00:25:21.840 | incentivize proper behavior.

00:25:23.940 | I mean, you look at, let's say,

00:25:25.300 | one of the great monsters of history, Adolf Hitler,

00:25:28.100 | obviously, who's done awful, awful things,

00:25:31.220 | but also for anyone that's even a minor student of history,

00:25:33.800 | did some positive things as well.

00:25:35.780 | We don't have to, I don't have to

00:25:37.900 | embroider this person's crimes,

00:25:39.500 | I don't have to act as if there was nothing good

00:25:42.900 | a monster has ever done, and nothing bad

00:25:44.920 | that a great person throughout history has ever done.

00:25:47.720 | But imagine the ghost of Adolf Hitler were to pop up

00:25:50.340 | and go, "Oh my gosh, guys, I'm so sorry.

00:25:52.580 | "I know what I've done, but I'd like to apologize

00:25:55.260 | "and start to make it right."

00:25:57.020 | Well, I mean, you'd hope that,

00:25:58.460 | if he popped up over here, you'd go,

00:25:59.540 | "Well, I don't really like what you've done,

00:26:01.540 | "and I don't like you, but at the same time,

00:26:03.340 | "I'm glad to hear that you're attempting

00:26:05.020 | "to make this right and push in a positive direction,

00:26:07.120 | "even if you can't make it right."

00:26:08.500 | Because otherwise, what am I doing?

00:26:10.140 | I'm disincentivizing change for the better.

00:26:12.580 | I'm looking to wield whatever power I have

00:26:14.940 | in a punitive fashion, which does not encourage people

00:26:18.820 | to do anything other than double down

00:26:20.660 | on the wrongs that they've made,

00:26:22.340 | knowing that at least they're gonna have some support

00:26:24.520 | from the people that support that.

00:26:26.360 | And I guess I want to, you would hopefully

00:26:29.820 | look at the use of the internet as a tool that can educate,

00:26:33.780 | and I guess, I don't like the word empower,

00:26:35.200 | but empower people to do various things,

00:26:37.320 | extend their reach, but educate and learn,

00:26:39.620 | rather than to further solidify little tribal things

00:26:43.200 | that exist, which I think everyone in humanity

00:26:45.700 | and human history is vulnerable to.

00:26:47.460 | I mean, look at the course of human history.

00:26:49.020 | It's deeply tribal.

00:26:50.340 | And the tribes or the groups that have been on top

00:26:53.140 | at various points in time have done,

00:26:55.100 | a lot of times, bad things to the ones that have not.

00:26:58.000 | And you'd hope that we could learn lessons from the past,

00:27:00.380 | and rather than committing the crimes

00:27:03.100 | that were committed against us,

00:27:05.940 | recommit in them when we slide into the top position,

00:27:09.420 | say, "I could do this now, but I'll not."

00:27:12.220 | I understand the urge to seek vengeance is strong.

00:27:15.220 | Anyone that says differently, I wouldn't trust.

00:27:18.260 | But at the same time, we go,

00:27:20.100 | we have enough experience in history,

00:27:21.980 | enough experience in life, enough, hopefully, wisdom,

00:27:24.960 | time in to go, "This isn't the right answer.

00:27:27.860 | This is only gonna replay the things,

00:27:29.860 | the worst parts of our history, not the best."

00:27:32.020 | And I want to encourage positive behavior.

00:27:34.620 | And if I just, again, further lash out at people,

00:27:37.420 | although understandably, done understandably,

00:27:40.420 | I'm simply just gonna just perpetuate the cycle

00:27:42.820 | that's gone on to this point.

00:27:44.180 | So you hope that even though we're seeing

00:27:46.020 | a lot of turmoil societally at the moment

00:27:48.820 | and globally at the moment,

00:27:50.140 | that I guess our better angels can prevail

00:27:52.780 | at a certain point.

00:27:53.700 | But it's gonna take a great deal of leadership.

00:27:55.500 | And I think that we're sorely missing

00:27:58.080 | like a Martin Luther King-style character at the moment

00:28:00.220 | or a great leader.

00:28:01.100 | And I just, I'm hoping that one will show up.

00:28:05.100 | - For sure.

00:28:05.940 | And by the way, a word I don't hear often,

00:28:08.100 | and I think it's a beautiful one, which is grace.

00:28:10.700 | That's a really interesting word.

00:28:11.820 | I'm gonna have to think about that.

00:28:13.860 | There is a religious component to it,

00:28:15.420 | but it's exactly right.

00:28:17.260 | You have to somehow walk the line between,

00:28:22.420 | you know, you mentioned Hitler.

00:28:25.020 | I've been reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

00:28:28.620 | I'm really thinking about the 1930s

00:28:30.940 | and what it's like to have economic...

00:28:36.980 | My concern is the economic pain

00:28:39.100 | that people are feeling now quietly

00:28:42.360 | is really a suffering that's not being heard.

00:28:46.460 | And there's echoes of that in the '20s and the '30s

00:28:50.620 | with the Great Depression.

00:28:52.420 | And there's a hunger for a charismatic leader.

00:28:55.460 | Like you said, there's a leader

00:28:56.700 | that could walk with grace, could inspire,

00:29:01.340 | could bring people together

00:29:04.900 | with sort of dreams of a better future that's positive.

00:29:09.900 | But Hitler did exactly everything that I just said,

00:29:13.960 | except for the word positive,

00:29:15.740 | which is he did give a dream to the German people

00:29:19.820 | who were great people,

00:29:20.940 | who are great people of a better future.

00:29:25.940 | It's just that a certain point

00:29:29.300 | that quickly turned into the better future

00:29:33.660 | requires literally expansion of more land.

00:29:38.620 | It started with, well, if we wanna build a great Germany,

00:29:43.140 | we need a little bit more land.

00:29:45.340 | And so we need to kind of get Austria,

00:29:48.980 | then we need to kind of get France,

00:29:52.320 | mostly because France doesn't understand

00:29:55.260 | that more land is really useful,

00:29:56.580 | so we need to get rid of them.

00:29:57.700 | - And look what they did to us in Versailles anyway.

00:30:00.200 | - But so the Jewish, the Holocaust is a separate thing.

00:30:07.060 | I don't know.

00:30:11.100 | Well, I don't know.

00:30:13.140 | I don't know what to think of it

00:30:13.980 | because to me being Jewish and having a lot of,

00:30:17.540 | the echoes of the suffering is in my family,

00:30:22.620 | of the people that are lost.

00:30:25.000 | I don't know because Hitler wrote all about it in "Mein Kampf,"

00:30:28.540 | so I don't know if the evil he committed

00:30:30.940 | was there all along.

00:30:32.940 | I mean, and that's where the question of forgiveness,

00:30:36.860 | I mean, Hitler is such a difficult person to talk about,

00:30:39.060 | but it's the question of,

00:30:40.580 | cancel culture, who is deserving of forgiveness

00:30:46.540 | and who is not?

00:30:48.000 | Like the Holocaust survivors that I've read about,

00:30:51.540 | that I've heard the interviews with,

00:30:53.500 | they've often spoken about the fact that

00:30:56.340 | the way for them to let go,

00:30:59.940 | to overcome the atrocities that they've experienced

00:31:04.940 | is to forgive.

00:31:06.360 | Like forgiveness is the way out for them.

00:31:11.540 | It's interesting to think about.

00:31:13.320 | I don't know.

00:31:14.160 | I don't know if we're even as a society

00:31:16.380 | ready to even contemplate an idea of forgiveness for Hitler.

00:31:20.700 | It's an interesting idea though.

00:31:23.300 | It's a good thought exercise at the very least

00:31:27.020 | to think about all these people that are being canceled

00:31:30.500 | for doing bad things of different degrees.

00:31:34.820 | Think of like Louis C.K. or somebody like that

00:31:37.380 | for being not a good person,

00:31:39.540 | but what is the path for forgiveness?

00:31:42.100 | - And also what's a good person?

00:31:43.660 | - What is a good person?

00:31:44.740 | - If that's a sliding scale

00:31:46.340 | that we could all find ourselves looking at

00:31:48.900 | the uncomfortable end of a gun on,

00:31:51.340 | particularly down the line,

00:31:52.460 | I mean, you hope for the best,

00:31:53.460 | but these definitions, I guess, like you said,

00:31:55.740 | are important and who's doing the canceling,

00:31:57.700 | who's being canceled.

00:31:58.780 | I'm not necessarily, as you said,

00:32:00.060 | saying that that's entirely unjustified

00:32:02.660 | or certainly not, it's certainly understandable.

00:32:05.100 | And particularly you mentioned like a monster,

00:32:06.900 | like an Adolf Hitler, but it's also interesting.

00:32:09.020 | I couldn't help but notice, like you mentioned,

00:32:11.140 | as a society, us being able to apply forgiveness

00:32:14.260 | to someone who's done so much horror,

00:32:16.300 | but people who are personal,

00:32:18.620 | I mean, of course, many,

00:32:19.460 | so many people have been personally affected,

00:32:20.600 | but directly personally affected,

00:32:22.060 | someone, a survivor of the Holocaust,

00:32:24.140 | being able to let go on that,

00:32:25.760 | I'm nowhere near big enough a person

00:32:27.420 | for that sort of thing.

00:32:28.620 | But I guess that's an interesting thing,

00:32:31.700 | the person who was physically there

00:32:35.980 | potentially able to let go.

00:32:38.500 | I don't know, that's unbelievably powerful.

00:32:41.300 | It's interesting.

00:32:42.140 | I guess you have to wonder sometimes,

00:32:43.900 | and this isn't obviously in regards to the Holocaust,

00:32:46.540 | but why I'm holding on to various things.

00:32:49.820 | Why, what is it doing for me?

00:32:51.900 | And what is it doing to me?

00:32:53.380 | Is it facilitative?

00:32:54.300 | Is it not?

00:32:55.140 | And I guess that's something else that I really enjoy.

00:32:57.620 | When I was on "Ultimate Fighter,"

00:32:58.940 | they don't let you have any music or any books

00:33:02.220 | other than religious texts.

00:33:03.060 | So I brought a Bible and I brought a Quran,

00:33:04.540 | and I started to read them side by side.

00:33:06.740 | And it was really interesting reading.

00:33:08.500 | The Bible's a little drier,

00:33:09.580 | Quran's more interesting, at least written.

00:33:11.620 | But I think something that was consistently brought up

00:33:16.060 | was the way, most merciful.

00:33:19.940 | People want, I don't think any of us want justice.

00:33:22.460 | We think we want justice,

00:33:24.180 | but I don't think we want justice.

00:33:25.260 | Justice is a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous game,

00:33:27.760 | because maybe this person's wronged me deeply,

00:33:30.180 | and I want justice.

00:33:31.260 | I wanna balance it out,

00:33:32.140 | 'cause what is justice

00:33:32.980 | if not a balancing of the scales?

00:33:34.420 | And sometimes you can understand it,

00:33:35.500 | and on a societal level, I think it's fine.

00:33:36.980 | I mean, there's crime and punishment,

00:33:38.420 | and we can go for the benefits and the drawbacks of that.

00:33:41.140 | But I think what all any of us want is mercy within reason.

00:33:45.660 | You know, grace, as you mentioned,

00:33:47.100 | 'cause justice is a very, very, very dangerous thing,

00:33:50.020 | and it's a valuable and important thing.

00:33:51.740 | But who gets to decide what's just,

00:33:54.060 | what justice is actually meted out?

00:33:55.660 | Maybe I get to mete out justice,

00:33:57.060 | but I don't get my comeuppance.

00:33:58.780 | Well, that sounds great.

00:33:59.980 | But what happens when it's pointed back at me?

00:34:02.180 | And I guess that comes back to the veil of ignorance.

00:34:05.460 | You know, the idea that one day

00:34:07.380 | I will have to live in the world in which I've envisioned,

00:34:09.740 | the world in which I've created.

00:34:11.220 | I think that a lot of times people love the idea

00:34:13.900 | of they're a judge for your crimes and a lawyer for theirs.

00:34:18.340 | And I heard that the other day.

00:34:19.580 | I thought that was great.

00:34:20.740 | And I think that's a dangerous thing,

00:34:23.460 | and hopefully it gives us all pause before,

00:34:25.620 | rightly or wrongly, but always understandably,

00:34:28.180 | you know, wielding serious power.

00:34:31.180 | - Yeah, justice is a kind of drug.

00:34:32.820 | So if you look at history,

00:34:34.580 | also been reading a lot about Stalin.

00:34:36.620 | I mean, all those folks really,

00:34:39.940 | I don't know what was inside Hitler's head, actually,

00:34:43.580 | that he's a tricky one,

00:34:45.100 | because I think he was legitimately insane.

00:34:47.660 | Stalin was not.

00:34:49.420 | And Stalin was like,

00:34:52.100 | he literally thought he's doing a good thing.

00:34:55.180 | He literally thought for the entirety of the time

00:34:58.860 | that communism is going to bring,

00:35:00.940 | like that's the utopia,

00:35:02.580 | and is going to create a happy world.

00:35:06.180 | And in his mind were ideas of justice,

00:35:11.900 | of fairness, of happiness,

00:35:14.780 | of yeah, human flourishing.

00:35:19.460 | And that's a drug.

00:35:21.060 | And it somehow, sadly, pollutes the mind.

00:35:24.340 | When you start thinking like that,

00:35:25.660 | what's good for society,

00:35:27.340 | and believing that you have a good sense

00:35:30.700 | of what's good for society,

00:35:32.840 | that's intoxicating,

00:35:34.340 | especially when others around you are feeling the same way.

00:35:36.780 | And then you start like building up this movement,

00:35:39.980 | and you forget that you are just like,

00:35:43.460 | you're like barely recently evolved from an ape.

00:35:47.060 | Like you don't know what the hell you're doing.

00:35:49.100 | And then you start like killing witches or whatever.

00:35:51.460 | Like you start-

00:35:52.900 | - They did math, let's be honest though.

00:35:54.380 | I mean, sometimes you got a witch has to go.

00:35:56.820 | - Yeah, we can all agree there.

00:35:57.940 | A witch has to go.

00:35:59.660 | If it floats or sinks, which one?

00:36:02.080 | I forget which one it is.

00:36:03.060 | - Whichever one we need at the time, honestly.

00:36:04.660 | Is it floating?

00:36:05.500 | It should have sunk.

00:36:06.320 | - Yeah.

00:36:07.860 | Yeah, but yeah, we can definitely agree

00:36:09.620 | that witches have to go.

00:36:10.820 | Because you brought it up,

00:36:13.540 | I tweeted recently, but also just,

00:36:16.740 | one of the things I'm really ashamed of in my life

00:36:20.220 | is I haven't really read almost any of the sci-fi classics.

00:36:24.940 | - Really?

00:36:25.780 | - Yeah, so like my whole journey through reading

00:36:28.320 | was through like the literary philosophers, I would say,

00:36:33.320 | like Camus, Hesse, Dostoevsky, Kafka,

00:36:38.540 | like that place.

00:36:40.220 | Like that's a kind of sci-fi world in itself,

00:36:43.340 | but it just,

00:36:45.380 | it creates a world in which the deepest questions

00:36:52.260 | about human nature can be explored.

00:36:54.540 | I didn't realize this, but the sci-fi world is the same.

00:37:00.260 | It just puts it in a,

00:37:01.780 | it like removes it from any kind of historical context

00:37:05.020 | to where you can explore those same ideas

00:37:07.160 | in like space somewhere elsewhere

00:37:08.860 | in a different time, a different place.

00:37:10.740 | It allows you almost like more freedom

00:37:12.460 | to like construct these artificial things

00:37:15.100 | where you can just do crazy,

00:37:16.780 | crazy kind of human experiments.

00:37:19.220 | So I'm now working through it.

00:37:22.120 | The books on my list are the "Foundation" series

00:37:25.660 | by Isaac Asimov, "Dune,"

00:37:28.380 | "Snow Crash" by Neil Stevenson,

00:37:32.820 | and "Ender's Game," like you mentioned.

00:37:35.060 | That's just kind of,

00:37:36.180 | and then, so I posted that,

00:37:37.740 | and then of course like Elon Musk, John Carmack,

00:37:41.760 | I don't know if you know him,

00:37:42.600 | creator of "Doom" and "Quake."

00:37:43.900 | - Oh, cool.

00:37:44.820 | - See, they all pitched in.

00:37:46.020 | These nerds, these ultra nerds just started like going,

00:37:48.980 | like, "You need to read this, that," and the other.

00:37:53.440 | So I've like started working out, okay.

00:37:56.640 | But it seems like the list I've mentioned

00:37:58.740 | holds up somewhat.

00:38:00.300 | Is there a book, is there sci-fi books or series

00:38:06.300 | or authors that you find are just amazing?

00:38:11.300 | Maybe another way to ask that is like,

00:38:13.180 | what's the greatest sci-fi book of all time?

00:38:15.380 | - Well, I'd like to start by sharing something

00:38:17.980 | that I'm embarrassed about,

00:38:20.080 | is that I haven't read anything other than, you know,

00:38:23.980 | Orson Scott Card, JR Tolkien, Frank Herbert, Tolkien.

00:38:28.340 | - "Dune." - Yep, yep.

00:38:29.860 | Yeah, I'm aware through Wikipedia

00:38:32.260 | and through surface reading of things

00:38:34.860 | that like a book called "The Republic" was written once.

00:38:37.620 | There were some other, some other good ones.

00:38:40.820 | - You're a prolific reader of Wikipedia articles.

00:38:43.860 | - Well. - Or occasional.

00:38:45.260 | - Occasional, yeah, exactly.

00:38:47.060 | In between whatever else it is that I waste my time on.

00:38:50.860 | - But yeah, so I also, I should say,

00:38:52.700 | I posted on Reddit questions for Ryan Hall

00:38:56.560 | and there's like a million questions,

00:38:58.460 | but like half of them have to do with "Dune."

00:39:01.180 | No, not really, but like people bring up "Dune."

00:39:03.500 | I don't understand why, did you mention "Dune" before?

00:39:06.860 | - Well, actually, we actually have,

00:39:07.820 | Shari Roll actually made us a gi,

00:39:09.700 | a "Dune" themed gi one time,

00:39:11.460 | which I thought was kind of cool.

00:39:12.500 | I'll send you one, I'll give you one, we got extras.

00:39:14.340 | But actually to your point, actually,

00:39:16.900 | this is a Orson Scott Card quote,

00:39:18.700 | actually the writer of "Ender's Game."

00:39:20.700 | Fiction, because it's not about somebody

00:39:22.220 | who actually lived in the real world,

00:39:23.580 | always has the possibility of being about oneself.

00:39:26.860 | And I think that's a neat thing,

00:39:28.660 | because I have heard, you know, other people whom I respect

00:39:32.260 | and very sharp people actually every now and then

00:39:34.380 | dig their heels and go, "I don't like fiction.

00:39:36.020 | "I only like nonfiction, it's more instructive."

00:39:38.220 | And I would go, "I completely disagree with that."

00:39:40.500 | I think we have a hard enough time figuring out

00:39:42.340 | what happened at 7-Eleven three hours ago that,

00:39:45.420 | let me tell you what happened 600 years BC.

00:39:47.940 | I'm like, "Hey, I'm interested,

00:39:48.900 | "but don't tell me this isn't a story too."

00:39:50.900 | There's factual components, I have no doubt,

00:39:54.740 | but we struggle sometimes to,

00:39:57.020 | like I guess what I like about fiction

00:39:59.620 | is that you can tell me a story, it's all about people.

00:40:02.220 | I mean, every now there's more and less believable things.

00:40:04.780 | And I think "Dune" would be an unbelievably well-written,

00:40:07.500 | in my opinion, for what do I know,

00:40:09.700 | but I really like "Dune," I'll say that,

00:40:11.380 | well-written example of human beings

00:40:14.620 | interacting with one another,

00:40:15.700 | the political component to that,

00:40:17.320 | the emotional, the intellectual,

00:40:19.420 | the relationship components to all of that.

00:40:20.980 | And I think that "Dune" is neat because it's a sci-fi novel,

00:40:24.300 | but only in the loosest sense.

00:40:26.700 | It's really a story about religion, about group dynamics,

00:40:31.340 | about human potential, about belief, learning,

00:40:36.340 | politics, governance, ecology.

00:40:40.340 | It's the best stories remind me of history,

00:40:44.060 | the same way history, hopefully,

00:40:45.460 | is not just a list of facts that I try to be able to recall

00:40:49.460 | or factoids that I try to recall,

00:40:51.520 | but a story that I can understand

00:40:54.220 | and see how the threads of time kind of came together

00:40:58.340 | and created certain things.

00:40:59.460 | And a lot of times, like we say, I'm like,

00:41:00.520 | "Oh, how the heck is, what's going on right now

00:41:02.660 | "or 100 years from now or 100 years in the past happened?"

00:41:05.100 | And you can look back far enough,

00:41:06.420 | if we had accurate knowledge,

00:41:08.380 | if we had that hypothetical perfect pool shot,

00:41:11.820 | at the beginning of time,

00:41:12.780 | we would see an unbroken chain of events

00:41:14.740 | that led us to where we are

00:41:16.260 | and where we are will potentially lead us

00:41:18.340 | to where we're going, which is again, why hindsight's helpful.

00:41:20.260 | But I think it's neat.

00:41:21.540 | I guess I really enjoy, for instance, a book like "Dune,"

00:41:24.140 | and they're actually making a movie out of it,

00:41:25.740 | which I'm skeptical of, to be honest,

00:41:27.780 | 'cause it's gonna be difficult

00:41:29.460 | to bring that to the screen for a variety of reasons.

00:41:31.740 | - Yeah, there's at least 100 questions.

00:41:33.740 | Ask Ryan, "What do you think about the new "Dune" movie?"

00:41:36.560 | - I am not enough of an authority

00:41:37.980 | to have any sort of decent opinion,

00:41:39.480 | but I guess what I would say is

00:41:40.380 | so much of it goes on in the character's mind.

00:41:41.940 | Like how much of any of our day,

00:41:44.420 | any lived experience, as it were, is internal?

00:41:47.780 | The majority, how many times are people walking around

00:41:50.780 | and they can, you can be like,

00:41:52.040 | "Hey, what do you see right now?"

00:41:52.880 | I'm like, "Oh, well, I see this picture, I see a wall.

00:41:54.820 | "Hey, there's Lex."

00:41:55.740 | But really, what I was paying attention to

00:41:58.140 | was what was going on inside of my head for a moment,

00:42:00.380 | and almost the rest of the world tuned out and kind of dimmed

00:42:03.620 | and I guess that, I think that's gonna be a struggle

00:42:08.620 | to any time you wanna bring that type of a written story

00:42:11.660 | to a visual medium, I think it's gonna be more difficult,

00:42:15.040 | but it'll be interesting.

00:42:16.700 | It's definitely one of my favorite stories,

00:42:19.340 | and it's been, it's honestly helped me become better at life

00:42:22.540 | in my opinion, better at the martial arts,

00:42:24.340 | and I think the writer, I think Frank Herbert,

00:42:26.340 | was absolutely brilliant,

00:42:27.180 | whether those were all his ideas, which in reality,

00:42:29.380 | none of us are, all of our good ideas aren't ours,

00:42:31.780 | we're a combination, maybe you came up with something,

00:42:33.300 | you're a curator of other good ideas,

00:42:34.680 | and some things you borrowed from somewhere

00:42:36.260 | without even realizing it,

00:42:37.540 | but I think the way, the messages and the themes

00:42:40.780 | and the ideas that were conveyed,

00:42:42.180 | particularly in the original novel

00:42:43.580 | are just absolutely brilliant.

00:42:45.460 | - Is that, is that to you one of the greats?

00:42:49.540 | And the flip side of that, like,

00:42:51.740 | or another way to ask that is like,

00:42:53.820 | if somebody is new to sci-fi,

00:42:55.380 | is that something you would recommend?

00:42:56.900 | That is an entry point?

00:42:58.620 | - I'm not well-read enough in the sci-fi world,

00:43:00.500 | I haven't read a lot of like Isaac Asimov

00:43:02.380 | or anything like that, but I just, I'll recommend Dune,

00:43:05.100 | I'll be an obnoxious like evangelist for Dune

00:43:07.300 | to anyone who'll listen.

00:43:08.660 | - Great. - So yeah,

00:43:09.500 | I would strongly recommend it.

00:43:10.500 | - So the other thing you mentioned,

00:43:12.660 | now I should probably be talking to you

00:43:14.380 | about much more important things,

00:43:15.620 | but the other thing you mentioned is Skyrim.

00:43:18.940 | Do you play video games?

00:43:21.340 | What's your favorite game?

00:43:22.660 | What's, what would you say is the greatest video game

00:43:24.900 | of all time?

00:43:25.740 | I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls.

00:43:26.900 | - Oh, cool. - Skyrim.

00:43:27.740 | - Yeah, I mean, I play a little bit at this point,

00:43:30.740 | you know, a little less, finally moved into a new house,

00:43:34.100 | so I'm-- - So you're like an adult?

00:43:35.660 | - No, no, no, no, I'm like a better funded 12 year old.

00:43:38.500 | Yeah, that's, yeah, that's entirely accurate,

00:43:43.620 | better funded 12 year old,

00:43:44.980 | but somewhat better funded 12 year old,

00:43:47.780 | not as well funded as I wish.

00:43:49.020 | - But historically, did you play video games?

00:43:50.820 | - Oh yeah, I played as a kid and I was, you know,

00:43:52.580 | again, I've always liked playing sports and liked reading

00:43:55.260 | and I always enjoyed video games,

00:43:56.620 | but my favorite video game I think I've ever played

00:43:58.460 | was Knights of the Old Republic.

00:44:01.100 | It was a Star Wars game, I'm a huge Star Wars fan

00:44:02.780 | until it become less so, so recently, Disney.

00:44:06.820 | - You don't like the, I haven't watched it yet.

00:44:09.740 | - Oh. - Mandalorian.

00:44:11.220 | - Oh, oh, actually I like Mandalorian,

00:44:13.340 | that was actually pretty cool, yeah.

00:44:14.180 | - Just like the waving this off, canceled.

00:44:16.860 | - Yeah, I will, if I could cancel one thing,

00:44:19.060 | I would cancel Disney Star Wars.

00:44:20.300 | - I'm gonna edit that part out.

00:44:21.420 | Okay, let's go to the next.

00:44:23.420 | - This is where, if people are wondering,

00:44:25.700 | if you're watching this on YouTube

00:44:27.420 | and like the dislike amount is like 80%,

00:44:30.140 | it's because of that comment, so good job.

00:44:33.060 | Good job for making the internet hate you.

00:44:34.900 | - I regret nothing.

00:44:35.940 | - Now what about Baby Yoda?

00:44:39.180 | - Yeah, I guess, yeah, he's like, he's little,

00:44:41.540 | he's got ears and he uses the force sometimes

00:44:43.420 | and he passes out, I guess, no qualms with Baby Yoda, yeah.

00:44:46.500 | - You don't have a heart, okay.

00:44:48.100 | Let's go to Jiu Jitsu if it's okay.

00:44:53.500 | So the audience of this podcast

00:44:56.380 | may not know much about Jiu Jitsu,

00:44:59.620 | or they do because it's really part of the culture now,

00:45:01.900 | but they don't really know much.

00:45:04.580 | They see that so many people have fallen in love with it,

00:45:07.320 | have been transformed through it,

00:45:08.460 | but they don't know much about like, what is this thing?

00:45:11.300 | Is there a way you could sort of try to explain

00:45:14.780 | the what is Jiu Jitsu,

00:45:15.980 | what is the essence of this martial art

00:45:17.940 | that's captured the minds and hearts

00:45:21.180 | of so many people in the world?

00:45:22.700 | - I think that Jiu Jitsu is a philosophy

00:45:26.780 | that's expressed physically,

00:45:28.660 | and that it's the kind of development

00:45:31.980 | of the mental capacity and physical capacity

00:45:36.420 | working in unison to move efficiently

00:45:41.420 | and almost flowingly, unresistingly,

00:45:47.700 | with a given situation,

00:45:49.780 | with a physically resisting opponent.

00:45:52.380 | Learning how to generate force on your own

00:45:56.380 | and how to steal force from the floor,

00:45:58.060 | how to steal force from the other person,

00:46:00.020 | and move in concert with it, as opposed to clash against,

00:46:02.740 | which if you watch two untrained people fight,

00:46:05.060 | it's almost entirely a clash.

00:46:06.360 | It's a runaway and clash, a runaway and clash.

00:46:08.940 | If you watch Jiu Jitsu done well,

00:46:11.700 | it looks like water moving around a solid structure.

00:46:15.620 | And I think that that is expressed physically,

00:46:18.700 | and I think that all of the things

00:46:20.420 | that anyone has really been able to do very, very well

00:46:23.940 | in Jiu Jitsu end up kind of exemplifying that.

00:46:27.180 | But I think that that's true of martial arts in general.

00:46:29.500 | I think that a lot of times,

00:46:30.420 | like the clashing that we see going on

00:46:32.420 | and working well is just the fact that

00:46:36.060 | you get very, very physically powerful people every now

00:46:39.020 | and then they're able to get away with this.

00:46:40.540 | But I don't think that that's,

00:46:41.980 | and that's fantastic,

00:46:42.980 | 'cause ultimately it's a results-driven thing.

00:46:44.540 | But I think that the essence of the martial arts

00:46:46.740 | is learning how to make more out of less

00:46:48.220 | and how to move with and be yielding,

00:46:50.900 | almost like real-life Aikido.

00:46:52.300 | - So you think of martial arts, Jiu Jitsu,

00:46:56.700 | as like water or flowing, so Aikido,

00:47:01.700 | so moving around the force,

00:47:06.780 | as opposed to sort of maybe the wrestling mindset

00:47:11.100 | is finding a leverage where you can apply

00:47:13.740 | an exceptional amount of force.

00:47:15.180 | So like maximizing the application of force.

00:47:18.700 | - I guess maybe that's a better way to,

00:47:20.100 | I'd like to marry the two ideas,

00:47:21.940 | because I think you flow until the point

00:47:23.780 | at which you are the greater force,

00:47:25.180 | at which point in time you can apply.

00:47:27.260 | But if we look at the best wrestlers,

00:47:29.620 | and then when I say best,

00:47:30.460 | I don't necessarily mean most successful,

00:47:31.780 | although of course, most successful

00:47:33.140 | are always very, very good.

00:47:35.380 | Throughout the course of history in boxing,

00:47:37.660 | in wrestling, in Judo, they're magical.

00:47:41.900 | They disappear and reappear.

00:47:43.660 | It's like fighting a ghost that is like incorporeal

00:47:46.700 | when you wanna find it,

00:47:47.620 | but then when you don't wanna find it,

00:47:50.660 | it finds you.

00:47:51.700 | And I think that we see that

00:47:53.580 | in the like the Buwaisa Saityus of wrestling.

00:47:57.420 | And I guess you could look at Floyd Mayweather

00:48:00.620 | or Willie Pepp or Pernell Whitaker in boxing

00:48:05.140 | as brilliant examples of disappearing and reappearing.

00:48:08.540 | And when you're strong, it's almost like guerrilla warfare.

00:48:11.660 | When you're strong, I'm nowhere to be found.

00:48:13.740 | When you're weak, you can't get rid of me.

00:48:15.820 | And I think that's what we're looking for.

00:48:17.060 | - Yeah, the Satya brothers are incredible at that.

00:48:20.020 | They look like skinny Starbucks baristas,

00:48:24.060 | and they just manhandle everybody effortlessly.

00:48:29.060 | They look like they just kind of woke up,

00:48:31.860 | rolled out of bed,

00:48:33.820 | fighting for the gold medal at the Olympics,

00:48:36.860 | and just effortlessly throw.

00:48:40.100 | Like there's a match against, I guess, Yul Romero.

00:48:43.060 | Yeah, so like if you look at like who is the guy

00:48:47.420 | who's intimidating in this case,

00:48:50.260 | and terrifying looking, it's Yul Romero,

00:48:53.540 | just like a physical specimen,

00:48:56.060 | obviously like a super accomplished wrestler.

00:48:58.260 | I think this is for the gold medal, yeah, in 2000.

00:49:02.340 | - 2000. - Yeah, Sydney.

00:49:04.100 | And then there-

00:49:05.140 | - This is the year you all took silver.

00:49:08.540 | - And what you, just to show you,

00:49:11.860 | like there's a inside trip, effortless.

00:49:15.140 | Oh gee, he does it again.

00:49:17.160 | You know, it's a really creative kind of wrestling where-

00:49:23.220 | - It's organic.

00:49:24.060 | - Yeah, you're throwing all these kinds of things.

00:49:26.340 | There's just a mix of judo,

00:49:27.620 | a mix of like weird kind of moves.

00:49:31.380 | It's not like as funky as Ben Askren.

00:49:34.620 | It's just like legitimate, basic.

00:49:39.020 | - Well, it's not funky for funky's sake.

00:49:40.700 | And I'm not poking Ben Askren to imply

00:49:42.660 | that that's what he's doing, but it's like, it's funny.

00:49:45.020 | It's like a lot of times, it's almost like Musashi

00:49:47.220 | talked a lot about that.

00:49:48.460 | You know, that the only goal of combat is to win,

00:49:51.180 | is the outcome, it's outcome driven,

00:49:53.480 | versus like flourishing, you know, cool looking movements.

00:49:56.660 | It's like, unless that had a utilitarian purpose,

00:49:58.820 | like what are you wasting your time with that,

00:50:00.780 | both in the fight and also, you know, in practice.

00:50:03.780 | But as you mentioned, it's almost like it looks like judo.

00:50:05.980 | It looks like wrestling.

00:50:06.820 | It looks like jujitsu.

00:50:07.640 | It's almost like, I guess,

00:50:08.980 | reminds me all of the martial arts

00:50:10.740 | is again, deeply tribal as well.

00:50:12.660 | I wanna learn Lex Fridman martial arts.

00:50:14.700 | And then I wanna learn another, you know,

00:50:16.900 | I guess transcendent person's martial arts.

00:50:18.820 | And it just happened to be the set of movements

00:50:20.640 | that you tended to do most of the time,

00:50:22.620 | thanks to your body type and your opposition and whatnot.

00:50:25.060 | But then I try to codify that and force those to work

00:50:27.380 | as opposed to going, I wanna understand

00:50:29.640 | how the body works in concert

00:50:31.620 | and in Congress with something else.

00:50:33.660 | And other forces and move appropriately.

00:50:36.140 | And that's why it's like, it always struck me

00:50:37.740 | that the Scythian brothers are great examples

00:50:39.580 | of just moving like water,

00:50:41.340 | but they use Bruce Lee, which is a little trite,

00:50:43.820 | but again, he's brilliant.

00:50:44.660 | It's like water can flow or water can crash.

00:50:47.060 | And they would crash when they needed to crash.

00:50:48.540 | And they would flow when they needed to flow,

00:50:49.760 | but they would flow for the purpose of dissipating

00:50:51.820 | and then crash when they would win.

00:50:53.580 | And at the right moment,

00:50:54.580 | then go back to flowing the second

00:50:55.940 | that the other person found them.

00:50:57.120 | And it's just, it's beautiful to watch.

00:50:58.780 | It's artistic.

00:50:59.860 | And I think that that great expression

00:51:01.260 | of anything physical is ultimately studied as a science,

00:51:04.260 | but expressed as an art.

00:51:05.280 | And I think that that's something that gets lost

00:51:06.700 | in jujitsu a lot of times when it gets a little bit,

00:51:08.940 | a little nerdy, like do this hand here, hand here.

00:51:10.860 | Like the more details I have, the better.

00:51:13.300 | When in reality, that's just not in my experience,

00:51:16.100 | how it's done.

00:51:16.940 | - Might be fun exercise of saying like,

00:51:21.260 | what are the main positions and submissions

00:51:25.700 | in the art of jujitsu?

00:51:27.580 | - You don't have to be complete.

00:51:28.900 | That's a ridiculously, I apologize

00:51:31.180 | for putting you on the spot like this,

00:51:32.340 | but it might be a nice exercise to think through it.

00:51:35.020 | - Sure.

00:51:35.860 | I mean, I would just say that there,

00:51:37.340 | you have your arms bend in various ways.

00:51:39.460 | You have key lock Americana, straight arm locks,

00:51:41.820 | Kimura Omoplata.

00:51:42.900 | Omoplata is a Kimura, Kimura is an Omoplata.

00:51:44.780 | It's just executed-- - Submissions.

00:51:45.900 | - It's just a submission.

00:51:46.740 | - Breaking off your arm in all kinds of ways.

00:51:49.580 | - But ultimately, the question is,

00:51:51.420 | let's say you were a Terminator, like a robot,

00:51:53.540 | which of course you are.

00:51:54.580 | - Go on. - Go on.

00:51:55.420 | (laughing)

00:51:56.260 | It's like, all right, we're being completely literal.

00:51:58.940 | But, and I couldn't harm you with any of these things.

00:52:02.060 | Would I still use these positions?

00:52:03.580 | The answer is yes.

00:52:04.420 | They create leverage, they create control,

00:52:06.620 | they create shapes that I can affect

00:52:08.540 | and that can affect me,

00:52:09.620 | and they can be affected through other forces

00:52:11.660 | and other objects or structures like the ground or the wall.

00:52:14.220 | I really enjoy mixed martial arts

00:52:15.420 | because there's another component

00:52:17.380 | rather than just me and you and the floor,

00:52:18.980 | there's me, you, the floor and the wall.

00:52:20.580 | And it's another player in the game

00:52:21.940 | that doesn't exist in a grappling context

00:52:24.540 | within a non-enclosed, I guess, area of combat.

00:52:28.580 | But you can strangle me or choke me,

00:52:32.140 | what do you call it, without my arms being involved,

00:52:35.940 | or you can use one of my shoulders

00:52:37.800 | to pin one side of my, one carotid artery off

00:52:40.220 | and you can enclose the other.

00:52:41.620 | You can turn my knee in the exact same ways

00:52:43.980 | that you can turn my arm, straight, this way and that way.

00:52:47.440 | You can add a rotation to that

00:52:48.820 | or it can be directly linear against the joint.

00:52:51.140 | So I guess what I would say is

00:52:52.500 | the more that I've been able to understand Jiu-Jitsu,

00:52:55.180 | the more that I've been,

00:52:56.740 | it's given me a look into how we learn language

00:53:00.220 | where rather than learning five bazillion adjectives,

00:53:03.220 | I go, I understand what an adjective is.

00:53:05.220 | And of course, we are all read

00:53:06.220 | into some degree of vocabulary.

00:53:09.060 | I understand what an adverb does

00:53:11.180 | and I understand what an adverb is.

00:53:12.940 | I know what a noun is.

00:53:13.880 | I know what the component parts of a sentence are.

00:53:16.020 | I know what, I guess, a clause, a contraction,

00:53:18.780 | any of these things.

00:53:19.700 | And it allows you to be interesting and artistic

00:53:23.180 | with your language to the extent that you can.

00:53:25.300 | But I can't, like I can speak a degree of Spanish,

00:53:27.500 | but I'm not even slightly artistic in Spanish.

00:53:29.740 | I would be something,

00:53:31.340 | I speak like a child with a head injury.

00:53:33.740 | And anyway, the-

00:53:35.900 | But your basic understanding of the English language

00:53:38.180 | allows you to then be a student of Spanish.

00:53:40.420 | 100%, but I'm limited by my experience.

00:53:43.100 | I'm limited by my understanding of techniques.

00:53:45.580 | I'm limited by my understanding,

00:53:47.180 | almost like let's say techniques are like vocabulary.

00:53:51.020 | So even if I kind of sort of grasp the sentence structure

00:53:54.180 | and the thought process and the thought patterns

00:53:56.620 | of Spanish, which it's interesting

00:53:58.380 | because just even the orientation

00:54:00.500 | and the organization of a language,

00:54:01.740 | and I've thought about this a great deal,

00:54:03.900 | the way that I perceive the world

00:54:05.300 | is affected deeply by the language that I learned.

00:54:07.860 | Again, if I learned,

00:54:09.540 | I have no idea how the Chinese language structures,

00:54:11.700 | but I can only imagine that it would affect,

00:54:14.220 | it's like a different lens.

00:54:15.100 | We're all looking at the same thing,

00:54:16.340 | but I have a different set of sunglasses on than you do.

00:54:19.500 | And that's very, very interesting.

00:54:21.940 | I'll use the Quran as an example.

00:54:23.620 | Apparently it's unbelievably poetic in Arabic.

00:54:26.900 | Still neat and was interesting reading in English,

00:54:29.540 | but I'm told by people that I trust

00:54:32.060 | that it just one doesn't bear a resemblance to the other.

00:54:34.180 | And I think that's a very interesting thing

00:54:35.780 | that you may be able to say the same thing,

00:54:37.940 | but in a more, I guess in a different way,

00:54:41.100 | in a more artistic way that may not translate

00:54:43.900 | on a one-for-one kind of fidelity.

00:54:45.780 | But the more that we're able to understand

00:54:49.020 | about how the body works,

00:54:50.300 | the more examples of the body working this way,

00:54:52.220 | the body working that way,

00:54:53.060 | the body working that way,

00:54:54.300 | the more that I'm able to eventually become an artist,

00:54:56.340 | but it has to be studied as a science first.

00:54:57.980 | And it does start with technique collection,

00:54:59.700 | vocabulary collection, the same way we learn in school,

00:55:02.420 | where you remember how to say quickly 17 different ways.

00:55:06.820 | And let's say I speak Spanish, I only know three.

00:55:10.460 | So you might use quickly,

00:55:12.460 | you might use an adjective like quickly in Spanish,

00:55:14.180 | but use one of the many, many options to describe that,

00:55:16.820 | that I don't understand.

00:55:17.660 | And now I sit there and go like, wait, what?

00:55:20.060 | I can't be artistic.

00:55:21.260 | I can't be as organic with the language as I'd like.

00:55:23.380 | So I believe that jujitsu a lot of times

00:55:24.860 | starts with the acquisition of a lot of,

00:55:27.180 | hey, do this, this drill, this technique.

00:55:29.580 | Here's an Americana, Americana to an arm lock,

00:55:31.500 | arm lock to a triangle.

00:55:33.380 | But the problem with that is oftentimes

00:55:35.740 | we get stuck in that phase.

00:55:37.700 | And people eventually become move collectors

00:55:40.740 | or sequence collectors.

00:55:41.740 | And I noticed this when I'm trying to do DVDs

00:55:43.660 | or I guess like an instructional series now,

00:55:45.660 | or even teaching in class.

00:55:47.180 | I don't believe in that form of learning anymore.

00:55:49.660 | Not that it's not valuable,

00:55:50.900 | but I don't believe,

00:55:52.260 | I don't understand jujitsu on that level anymore.

00:55:53.980 | So what I'm trying to do is get across

00:55:55.500 | the basic ideas to people and say,

00:55:57.060 | hey, you need to fill in the gaps

00:55:59.220 | with going to class all the time.

00:56:01.180 | You need to go, hey, learn this move,

00:56:02.500 | learn that technique, learn that technique,

00:56:03.860 | because otherwise I'm basically just throwing at you

00:56:05.980 | like 75 different words that you could use,

00:56:08.500 | but that hasn't really taught you how to speak a language.

00:56:12.060 | Whereas if you give me a language structure,

00:56:14.020 | you can fill in these pieces on your own

00:56:16.140 | and then eventually speak organically in Lex form,

00:56:19.020 | which will be ultimately unique to you

00:56:20.820 | because otherwise you just end up being

00:56:22.580 | like a weird facsimile of whatever it is that I'm doing

00:56:25.700 | for mostly the worst, I'd say.

00:56:28.300 | But-

00:56:29.140 | - Yeah, that's what people, I mean, people comment,

00:56:30.900 | like, is this, especially people

00:56:32.380 | who haven't listened to me before,

00:56:34.620 | is this guy drunk or high?

00:56:37.140 | Does he, does MIT really allow slow people to be-

00:56:42.140 | - Quotas.

00:56:44.420 | - Quotas, yeah.

00:56:45.540 | Like what's wrong with him?

00:56:47.020 | Is he getting sleep?

00:56:48.060 | Are you okay?

00:56:48.900 | And does he need help?

00:56:50.420 | So that's similar with my jujitsu.

00:56:52.260 | It's like, is this guy really,

00:56:54.900 | whatever rank I was throughout,

00:56:57.180 | I remember just like, is this guy really this rank?

00:57:01.020 | I just have a very kind of certain way of sitting

00:57:03.500 | and being slow and lazy looking

00:57:06.340 | that was ultimately the language that I had to discover.

00:57:09.420 | And it was, yeah, it was a very liberating moment, I think,

00:57:14.300 | of probably a few years of getting my ass kicked,

00:57:19.500 | especially with "Open Guard" and "Butterfly"

00:57:21.420 | to where you really allow yourself

00:57:22.860 | to take in the entirety of the language

00:57:24.940 | and realize that I'm not, I'm a unique,

00:57:29.940 | I'm unique and like, I have a very,

00:57:34.180 | I have a language, I have a set of techniques,

00:57:36.660 | a way I move my body that needs,

00:57:39.620 | that I'm the one to discover.

00:57:41.300 | Like it's, you can only,

00:57:43.380 | you can learn specific techniques and so on,

00:57:45.220 | but you really have to understand your own body.

00:57:47.660 | And that's the beautiful thing about Jiu-Jitsu,

00:57:49.460 | like you said, is like the connection about your philosophy,

00:57:54.460 | your view of the world with the physical

00:57:57.140 | and like connecting those two things,

00:57:59.260 | how you perceive the world,

00:58:00.940 | how you interpret ideas of the world about exhaustion,

00:58:04.780 | about force, about effortlessness,

00:58:07.540 | like what it really means to relax,

00:58:09.100 | all these kinds of loose concepts,

00:58:11.060 | and then actually teach your body to like do those things.

00:58:16.460 | And like, you know, and be able to apply force in spurts,

00:58:20.060 | be able to relax in spurts

00:58:21.300 | and like figure all that stuff out for my individual body.

00:58:26.100 | - But it's, as you mentioned,

00:58:27.100 | that's, I couldn't agree with you more.

00:58:28.140 | It's a discovery process and no one can cheat that process,

00:58:31.260 | which is at the same time,

00:58:32.460 | it's almost like imagine I want to start writing books

00:58:34.260 | in second grade, unless maybe I'm like staggeringly brilliant,

00:58:37.860 | like which I can only conceptualize

00:58:39.220 | someone being able to do that,

00:58:40.300 | but maybe a Mozart of the English language

00:58:42.380 | where you're out there doing it.

00:58:43.780 | But for most of us, we don't have enough knowledge,

00:58:45.980 | enough information, enough experience

00:58:47.500 | to be able to express ourselves.

00:58:51.100 | So we have to basically input, repeat, which is important,

00:58:56.100 | but it's the process, as you say,

00:58:58.100 | of going through that, of getting your ass kicked,

00:58:59.660 | to just like, well, that didn't work,

00:59:00.820 | well, that didn't work, that felt right,

00:59:02.060 | but I don't know, nobody else does that.

00:59:03.180 | I guess I don't believe in that,

00:59:04.480 | versus eventually going, I don't know,

00:59:06.580 | I'll just try going my own way and see what happens.

00:59:08.580 | And now I'll get yelled at and people won't like me.

00:59:10.380 | And if it works, they'll say I got lucky.

00:59:11.780 | And if it doesn't work, they'll say I was dumb,

00:59:13.700 | but which maybe all is right.

00:59:15.420 | But basically, going through that iterative process

00:59:19.300 | that allows you to eventually find your self-expression

00:59:21.860 | and find your voice so that you fight

00:59:23.980 | the same way that you speak, the same way that you write,

00:59:25.940 | the same way that you think in a way that is uniquely you,

00:59:28.620 | that will also ultimately allow you

00:59:31.780 | to understand other people being uniquely them.

00:59:33.740 | Because even if you can only conceptualize,

00:59:35.620 | and I think about this a lot for society stuff,

00:59:37.660 | where I go, well, this is how I feel about this,

00:59:39.660 | but am I objectively right?

00:59:41.500 | Maybe about a couple of things, but that's a small box

00:59:43.660 | that I have to be very, very careful

00:59:44.820 | about what I think is objective versus what's not.

00:59:47.300 | And I have to be open to the possibility

00:59:48.740 | that all the things that I think are objectively correct

00:59:50.900 | may or may not be.

00:59:52.060 | And that should allow me to have some degree

00:59:54.660 | of compassion or consideration for other people,

00:59:57.020 | both in their martial arts journey and in their journey

01:00:00.100 | as people, as human beings,

01:00:01.820 | because I understand that we're all on a path,

01:00:06.620 | it's all, again, an iterative process

01:00:08.780 | of eventual self-expression.

01:00:10.580 | But I think that's one of the things

01:00:11.620 | that we see having trouble when we see tribalism,

01:00:15.140 | which, I mean, racism is expression of that,

01:00:17.380 | political affiliation, expression of that,

01:00:19.180 | all of these things that can go

01:00:20.460 | in really uncomfortable directions.

01:00:21.940 | People are looking for,

01:00:23.340 | hey, where do I plant my feet over here?

01:00:24.700 | Where's the thing that I know is right?

01:00:26.820 | And we can all agree on the following.

01:00:29.060 | And I think that we see that in martial arts.

01:00:31.140 | We're like, oh, I do this style.

01:00:32.300 | Well, I do that style.

01:00:33.140 | I do that style.

01:00:33.980 | It's like, hey, man, we're all just pushing forward

01:00:35.780 | in a certain direction here, trying to do our best.

01:00:37.420 | And I understand why you feel the way you do.

01:00:38.700 | I may have felt like that at one point too,

01:00:40.620 | but I'm just trying to learn and understand

01:00:44.260 | versus I've already acquired enough knowledge.

01:00:47.100 | Let me cross my arms and start to look

01:00:49.180 | who's fucking up around here.

01:00:50.700 | And I think that it's an interesting trap

01:00:55.060 | that I think is a very human trap to fall into,

01:00:57.100 | but it definitely happens early on.

01:00:58.660 | It's, I mean, it's a joke in the jiu-jitsu world, right?

01:01:00.340 | Like, oh, the blue belt that knows everything.

01:01:02.180 | Well, initially it's like, what?

01:01:03.220 | I know nothing, and I at least think I know nothing.

01:01:05.380 | Then I'd learn a little bit, and I think it's a lot bit.

01:01:07.660 | And then the more you learn, the more you go like,

01:01:09.580 | I don't even know what I'm doing.

01:01:10.580 | (laughs)

01:01:11.420 | - Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:01:13.020 | We kind of talked about it a little bit,

01:01:14.940 | but once again, a lot of people that listen to this

01:01:18.140 | have never been on the mat, have never tried jiu-jitsu,

01:01:20.860 | but are really curious about it.

01:01:23.100 | Everybody at all positions, like I think Elon Musk's kids

01:01:26.460 | are now doing jiu-jitsu.

01:01:27.660 | Andrew Yang is, like they're all, you know,

01:01:30.420 | the world is curious.

01:01:31.620 | It's a nice, it seems to be a nice methodology

01:01:36.020 | by which to humble your ego,

01:01:38.060 | which to grow intellectually and physically.

01:01:39.980 | So people are curious about it.

01:01:42.140 | So the natural question is, if they're curious about it,

01:01:44.900 | how would you recommend they get started?

01:01:47.180 | Maybe like, what do you recommend the first day, week,

01:01:51.740 | month, year, first couple of years look like?

01:01:54.540 | Like, how do you ease into it and make sure

01:01:57.140 | that it's a positive experience,

01:01:58.980 | and you progress in the most optimal and positive way?

01:02:03.420 | - The first thing you can do is simply ask yourself why,

01:02:07.020 | why you wanna be involved.

01:02:08.580 | I remember the first day that I walked into Ronin Athletics

01:02:10.980 | in New York City to train under my godfather,

01:02:14.140 | my son now, Christian Montes.

01:02:16.460 | And I didn't know what I was getting myself into.

01:02:19.260 | I played baseball through high school,

01:02:21.180 | and I was at Manhattan College in the Bronx,

01:02:24.660 | and I wanted to go and learn martial arts

01:02:27.380 | because it was always something that was interesting to me,

01:02:29.580 | but it was never something that I knew was accessible,

01:02:33.140 | and it definitely wasn't really around in Northern Virginia

01:02:35.900 | where I grew up, whereas then you stick yourself

01:02:38.140 | in Manhattan and there's stuff everywhere.

01:02:40.100 | So anyway, I guess I didn't know what to expect.

01:02:43.300 | I didn't know if I was gonna get beat up,

01:02:45.220 | if people were gonna be nice,

01:02:46.220 | if people were not gonna be nice.

01:02:48.340 | But what I began with was, I think, expectation management.

01:02:52.980 | And I think that that's something that I would,

01:02:56.900 | that'd be the first thing that I would start

01:02:58.540 | is almost imagining what is it that I'm getting myself into?

01:03:01.620 | Because I love the martial arts.

01:03:03.900 | Martial arts has given me everything in life,

01:03:05.460 | and I'm so thankful I wouldn't be sitting here

01:03:08.620 | without that experience, that journey.

01:03:11.220 | The people that I've met, the places that I've gone,

01:03:12.940 | I could never, ever have ever imagined.

01:03:15.340 | And I'm just unbelievably thankful for that.

01:03:19.060 | But I think that the thing that helped me most of all

01:03:24.060 | was starting with going,

01:03:26.580 | my mom said something to me one time,

01:03:28.300 | and she said, "There's two types of people

01:03:30.700 | "in various situations.

01:03:31.660 | "There's why and there's why not."

01:03:33.460 | And it's understandable to have questions,

01:03:35.660 | concerns, things like that.

01:03:37.700 | But maybe sometimes it's a little bit easier

01:03:39.460 | when you're younger to just trust people

01:03:41.980 | or just say, "I don't know."

01:03:44.180 | But we go, "Hey, you wanna climb that rock?"

01:03:46.660 | I'm like, "Yeah, why not?

01:03:47.500 | "Let's go."

01:03:48.340 | "Hey, you wanna jump in that river?"

01:03:49.180 | "Yeah, why not?"

01:03:50.020 | "Sure."

01:03:50.840 | Versus if I have to reason my way into everything,

01:03:53.220 | if I have to be taught into everything,

01:03:55.100 | a lot of times I'll talk myself out of it.

01:03:56.780 | And I think that a lot of times

01:03:57.820 | this is the thinker's disease.

01:03:59.760 | You wanna figure out what's gonna happen

01:04:01.500 | and what you should expect to have happen

01:04:03.700 | before you get involved

01:04:05.460 | versus going using the old Bruce Lee's

01:04:07.660 | saying, again, it's like no amount of thinking

01:04:09.340 | or training on the side of the river

01:04:10.980 | will teach you how to swim.

01:04:12.340 | You have to jump in.

01:04:13.660 | And there are risks associated with that.

01:04:15.420 | And so, I guess, psychological

01:04:18.540 | are usually the biggest ones.

01:04:19.660 | That's the biggest hurdle.

01:04:20.740 | And physical.

01:04:21.640 | But the biggest thing that I guess

01:04:24.500 | I would suggest to anyone to say,

01:04:25.640 | "Why do you wanna do this?"

01:04:26.580 | You're like, "Well, I wanna challenge myself.

01:04:28.120 | "I wanna learn.

01:04:29.360 | "I would like to learn to fight.

01:04:30.240 | "I want to learn to fight

01:04:31.080 | "so that I could protect myself

01:04:32.400 | "and if anything else, other people,

01:04:33.880 | "if only within arm's reach."

01:04:35.700 | I perceived that if I had some small degree of power,

01:04:40.020 | I generally wouldn't use it,

01:04:41.460 | which is why I was like, "Yeah, I'll give it a try.

01:04:42.780 | "I'll try to be reasonable.

01:04:43.760 | "And hopefully, if I make a mistake,

01:04:45.100 | "I'll apologize to people."

01:04:46.180 | But basically, I said, "Yeah, I'd like to have that.

01:04:49.040 | "And I know this is gonna be challenging

01:04:52.100 | "and we'll see what happens."

01:04:54.100 | And that means that getting beat up,

01:04:55.620 | and I didn't get hurt,

01:04:56.740 | but getting roughed up,

01:04:57.780 | getting my arm bent this way or that way,

01:04:59.860 | getting choked, I was like,

01:05:00.700 | "Well, this is all supposed to happen.

01:05:01.760 | "That's no big deal."

01:05:02.920 | It would be like going and joining the army

01:05:04.740 | during peace time,

01:05:06.100 | and then going, "Oh, I'm just doing this

01:05:07.540 | "for a college education."

01:05:08.580 | You're like, "Okay, that's cool, man."

01:05:09.820 | And then all of a sudden, war breaks out

01:05:11.540 | and they wanna send me somewhere.

01:05:12.500 | And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:05:13.480 | "I didn't sign up for that."

01:05:15.020 | Actually, you did, whether you realize it or not.

01:05:17.380 | You may not have thought that you did, but you did.

01:05:19.820 | So getting your mind right

01:05:21.740 | and just going, "What are my expectations of this activity?

01:05:24.500 | "What is it that I'm looking to do?"

01:05:25.940 | And of course, you're going into a gym,

01:05:28.680 | you're going into a place that you don't know people,

01:05:30.460 | or you probably don't know people,

01:05:31.660 | and you don't know the coach.

01:05:32.580 | And even if you do wanna, "Hey, how you doing?

01:05:34.020 | "Shake your hand," type of level.

01:05:35.940 | 95% of my students don't know me, not really.

01:05:38.860 | I try to be polite and not annoy them too much,

01:05:40.580 | but they don't know me and I don't know them.

01:05:43.100 | I understand if they don't trust me.

01:05:45.260 | I wouldn't trust, trust me either if I were them.

01:05:48.140 | But at the same time, someone has to take that leap.

01:05:50.820 | And one of the things that I've noticed

01:05:52.680 | as a martial arts instructor that's the biggest struggle

01:05:55.840 | with dealing with adults,

01:05:56.940 | which is why a lot of people like to teach kids,

01:05:58.660 | is 'cause kids don't argue.

01:06:01.020 | Now, that also means there's all sorts of pitfalls

01:06:04.080 | with that sort of thing, and that can be an issue.

01:06:05.880 | But I guess a lot of times people get to a point

01:06:08.300 | in their life, in their 20s, early 30s,

01:06:10.700 | where now I'm a manager now, I know what I'm doing.

01:06:13.340 | No one talks to me like that.

01:06:14.860 | First, it's like, "Hey, man, you go join bootcamp.

01:06:16.380 | "I don't care if you are Elon Musk.

01:06:17.580 | "They're gonna tell you to shut up and do pushups."

01:06:19.300 | And that's what's great about it.

01:06:21.300 | So you are taking a leap of faith into a world

01:06:24.880 | that you're gonna be a tiny fish.

01:06:26.460 | And you gotta hope that the people

01:06:28.900 | who are guiding you in that journey are gonna have,

01:06:32.620 | I can't even say your best interest at heart

01:06:34.500 | because they don't even know you,

01:06:35.460 | but they'll try to do no harm.

01:06:36.860 | And they'll try to help you

01:06:37.680 | in the way that they would understand.

01:06:39.140 | And I guess that's, for instance,

01:06:40.540 | that's what I would try to do with anyone

01:06:42.620 | that comes into my gym.

01:06:44.340 | I would try to help them in the way

01:06:45.700 | that I understand they need as best I can,

01:06:48.660 | and as safe and reasonable a way as possible.

01:06:51.400 | But sometimes in a way

01:06:52.240 | that's gonna make them uncomfortable,

01:06:53.220 | particularly if physical combat,

01:06:55.180 | and it's not something they've done before.

01:06:58.260 | If they've, a lot of people go in

01:06:59.700 | without even having played contact sports.

01:07:02.420 | And so that can be a big jump.

01:07:03.700 | And you have to understand

01:07:04.780 | if that's where you're starting from, no worries.

01:07:07.260 | But you're gonna have to kind of work your way to it,

01:07:09.300 | and it's gonna be uncomfortable, and that's okay.

01:07:12.260 | It's part of the process.

01:07:13.220 | And you're gonna have some bumps and bruises,

01:07:14.860 | and you're not gonna wanna roll with that guy in the corner

01:07:16.700 | 'cause that person's rough and they beat you up.

01:07:18.700 | And they're like, "Okay, but is this a big hurt

01:07:20.580 | or is it a little hurt?"

01:07:21.840 | If it's a big hurt, okay.

01:07:23.340 | If it's a little hurt,

01:07:24.420 | it needs you to center up a little bit.

01:07:27.300 | - It's such an interesting balance because to find,

01:07:30.420 | I think one of the most important things,

01:07:32.540 | as in anything, I think, in life,

01:07:34.700 | is the selection of the people that you put around you.

01:07:39.480 | I mean, that's true with getting married.

01:07:42.060 | That's true with, if you go to,

01:07:44.660 | if people ask me, like graduate students,

01:07:46.660 | like your PhD advisor can be the difference.

01:07:51.660 | It's everything.

01:07:52.860 | It's like you spend five years with somebody,

01:07:55.340 | they're going to basically define,

01:07:57.900 | more impact on you than anybody you marry,

01:08:00.620 | anybody you hang out with, there's a huge impact.

01:08:02.460 | And the same with the coach selection,

01:08:05.300 | which is like the school selection,

01:08:08.980 | is it's going to be really important about,

01:08:11.700 | in terms of like who you select,

01:08:14.100 | will define how happy, like the trajectory of your growth

01:08:19.020 | and how happy you are with the entirety of the experience.

01:08:21.180 | And yet, like the flip side of that is,

01:08:26.180 | especially if you have an ego,

01:08:28.420 | especially if you are the manager

01:08:29.940 | that needs to let go of some stuff,

01:08:31.340 | you're going to feel like shit

01:08:33.420 | with the best kind of coach.

01:08:35.860 | That's what you need.

01:08:37.580 | But there's a weird balance there to find.

01:08:40.500 | I mean, and everybody needs a different thing.

01:08:43.540 | Like I'm much more, I enjoy being sort of like,

01:08:48.620 | it sounds weird, but like I'm,

01:08:51.460 | from the wrestling background,

01:08:53.340 | I enjoy feeling like crap in the sense,

01:08:56.540 | like the coach, like getting beat up.

01:09:00.260 | I don't actually enjoy it.

01:09:01.620 | It's not like some masochistic thing or whatever.

01:09:04.100 | - I know exactly what you mean.

01:09:05.460 | - It's the growth.

01:09:06.580 | Like I like the anxiety.

01:09:08.220 | I like feeling like shit when I go home,

01:09:12.860 | like emotionally, physically, it's growth.

01:09:17.420 | - It's a sign of growth, right?

01:09:18.460 | Like if you're not having to feel those things,

01:09:20.260 | you're probably in your comfort zone, which is fine,

01:09:22.620 | but that's not your growth zone, right?

01:09:24.860 | - And everybody has a different threshold for that.

01:09:28.460 | I mean, the beautiful thing about Jiu Jitsu is like,

01:09:31.780 | it's also has like a yoga feel to it.

01:09:34.500 | Like you're learning about your body.

01:09:36.460 | So depending on the gym and depending on,

01:09:38.700 | and in fact, the coaches, the people around you,

01:09:41.660 | within the gym, you can select little groups too,

01:09:43.860 | kind of like the people with who you roll.

01:09:46.860 | Like if you're a smaller person,

01:09:48.420 | it doesn't mean you have to go against big people.

01:09:50.100 | You can go against the people who like smoke a lot of weed

01:09:53.300 | and they're chill, or you can go against like that crazy,

01:09:56.020 | ripped blue belt competitor

01:09:57.540 | who's like out to destroy everybody.

01:09:59.420 | And depending on like what your mindset is,

01:10:02.380 | you can kind of select that.

01:10:03.860 | It's such a fascinating journey

01:10:06.340 | of like basically self-discovery.

01:10:09.620 | - I couldn't agree with you more.

01:10:10.700 | It's been what you need may change over time, right?

01:10:12.900 | Maybe what you need today could change six months from now

01:10:16.140 | or a year from now.

01:10:16.980 | Something that I experienced,

01:10:18.420 | I'll use my first coach, Christian again,

01:10:20.500 | as a great example of someone

01:10:21.740 | who I really look up to and respect

01:10:23.860 | and someone who helped me a lot.

01:10:25.340 | Like at a time when I really needed some guidance

01:10:27.540 | and I needed to learn martial arts, but get into,

01:10:30.180 | Henzo Gracie's gym was right down the street

01:10:31.980 | from where Christian was teaching.

01:10:33.620 | And Christian was a blue belt at the time.

01:10:35.140 | He was teaching at a place called Fight House,

01:10:37.020 | which was this awesome, like 90s, early 2000s,

01:10:41.940 | warehouse area down on Fashion Avenue in Manhattan.

01:10:47.020 | Off of like between 7th and 8th.

01:10:48.340 | And it was like two basketball courts wide,

01:10:50.940 | but like there was the Sambo guys over here.

01:10:52.500 | There was the Kali guys over there.

01:10:53.660 | There was a Wing Chun over there.

01:10:54.500 | There was Jiu-Jitsu in the corner.

01:10:55.660 | And Henzo's was one of the most famous academies

01:10:58.100 | in the world at that time, still is.

01:10:59.740 | And I just didn't know what Henzo Gracie was.

01:11:02.300 | And I mean, it's a great gym

01:11:04.060 | and it's a fantastic place for people to train.

01:11:06.180 | But I think what was right for me at the time

01:11:08.180 | was I stumbled into like a two-person elevator up

01:11:12.620 | and found a place where six people trained at that time.

01:11:15.540 | And I had someone that could give me some,

01:11:18.820 | like in addition to martial arts advice,

01:11:20.460 | like personal guidance.

01:11:22.020 | And that made a big difference.

01:11:23.620 | And then when initially we would have like competitions

01:11:26.340 | or like intra-gym competitions with the Sambo guys,

01:11:30.140 | we would roll with them.

01:11:31.820 | And like, again, it was great

01:11:33.100 | 'cause they were just a bunch of like Russian dudes

01:11:34.980 | from like Brighton Beach and they would come down

01:11:36.940 | and then we would all fight and then everyone would train

01:11:39.300 | and we'd all drink tea and then go home.

01:11:41.060 | And anyway, what was-

01:11:43.340 | - Oh, Russians.

01:11:44.460 | - It was super tough.

01:11:45.980 | And they were like, again, just a tough group of people.

01:11:47.820 | It was great.

01:11:48.660 | And then I remember when I decided

01:11:51.380 | after like four or five months,

01:11:52.420 | I'm like, man, I really wanna try to take this seriously.

01:11:54.140 | And I told Christian about that.

01:11:55.100 | And he's like, well, hey,

01:11:55.940 | I think you need to do the following.

01:11:56.820 | And it was like, hey, there was a guy named Jeff Ruth

01:11:59.940 | who was a Purple Belt at the time,

01:12:01.460 | which was a much bigger deal than it is now,

01:12:03.020 | but it was 10 and O, he was an MMA fighter,

01:12:04.700 | a lot of amateur box experience, super tough dude.

01:12:06.740 | And Jeff was the best person at that time

01:12:09.420 | that I'd ever trained with.

01:12:10.260 | And I just got squashed.

01:12:11.300 | Christian used to beat me up too,

01:12:12.260 | but like Jeff would just absolutely

01:12:14.180 | kick the crap out of me.

01:12:15.100 | And I was like, this is awesome.

01:12:16.620 | And this was back when I was at home.

01:12:18.180 | I went home for the summer for that.

01:12:19.340 | And Chris was like, hey, I think you should stay.

01:12:21.180 | Because I told him that's what I was thinking.

01:12:22.660 | And this was a coach that,

01:12:24.820 | when initially was exactly what I needed.

01:12:27.620 | And then he's like, well, hey,

01:12:28.460 | that's not what I'm doing here.

01:12:29.500 | Maybe they're gonna be able to help you onto a path

01:12:32.100 | that's kind of commensurate

01:12:33.260 | with what your goals are at the moment.

01:12:34.820 | And then that was an interesting thing.

01:12:37.540 | And I really got, I feel that I was fortunate to start

01:12:40.500 | at a place where my coach was able to transition roles

01:12:43.820 | and do so comfortably.

01:12:46.260 | And I think that that also was probably a factor

01:12:48.300 | of the fact that, where he'd done some of his training prior,

01:12:51.480 | like there'd been issues with the coach there.

01:12:54.020 | We're like not supporting, not having the support,

01:12:56.460 | feeling like, hey, I'm gonna hold onto my students.

01:12:58.660 | I'm gonna hold onto my best guy or my best girl,

01:13:00.220 | even if I can't take them where they need to go.

01:13:03.500 | So that was an interesting thing.

01:13:05.380 | And just recognizing also though, that the people,

01:13:08.140 | like the same way you're an individual

01:13:09.860 | going into a gym and you don't know

01:13:11.260 | what you're getting into, your coach is a person too.

01:13:13.460 | And he or she, they may have been doing this activity

01:13:16.820 | longer than you, but they're not some weird little,

01:13:19.620 | all knowing God, they don't know anything.

01:13:22.220 | They may say something that pisses you off.

01:13:23.840 | They may yell at you.

01:13:25.860 | They may help you.

01:13:26.700 | They may inadvertently cause you some sort of issue.

01:13:31.060 | And just being able to recognize that even though,

01:13:33.740 | I say this to people and I've said this to people

01:13:35.300 | in my gym, I'm like, we're in the service industry, man,

01:13:37.820 | but I'm not at your service.

01:13:38.940 | Like don't get it twisted.

01:13:39.980 | Like I will absolutely do my best to help people.

01:13:42.640 | I'm there to do my best as a martial arts coach,

01:13:46.580 | but I'm here to do my best as a martial arts coach.

01:13:48.380 | And I'll do my best and periodically I make mistakes

01:13:50.220 | and I owe an apology or two,

01:13:51.300 | and I'll try to give them out when I can.

01:13:53.060 | But we're not McDonald's.

01:13:54.320 | It's not, oh, you gave me a hundred bucks,

01:13:55.540 | so you do whatever you want in here.

01:13:56.700 | This is my house.

01:13:57.540 | This is my gym.

01:13:58.360 | This is my dojo.

01:13:59.200 | This is a martial arts.

01:14:00.020 | This is not a basketball team.

01:14:01.220 | - Yeah, there's something beautiful about martial arts.

01:14:03.780 | Like exactly as you said, is the coach,

01:14:06.700 | like in wrestling and at least collegiate,

01:14:08.740 | like high level wrestling,

01:14:10.380 | it's like there's a dictatorship aspect to a coach

01:14:14.820 | that is very important to have.

01:14:17.260 | Like this ridiculous sometimes nature of like master

01:14:21.260 | and so on and bowing, all these traditions.

01:14:23.340 | There's something, it seems ridiculous

01:14:25.640 | from the outside perhaps,

01:14:26.900 | but there's something really powerful to that.

01:14:29.020 | Because that process of, you said, why not,

01:14:31.300 | of letting go of the leap of faith

01:14:33.360 | requires you to believe that the coach

01:14:35.380 | has your best interest in mind

01:14:38.020 | and just give yourself over to their ideas

01:14:42.460 | of how you should grow.

01:14:44.740 | And that's an interesting thing.

01:14:45.980 | I mean, I've never been able to really see coaches

01:14:50.460 | I've had as human.

01:14:52.580 | You always, it's like a father figure,

01:14:56.180 | but like you always put them in this position of power.

01:14:59.500 | And I think that's, I think at least for me,

01:15:03.340 | it's been a very useful way to see the coach

01:15:06.900 | because it allows you to not think and let go

01:15:10.260 | and really allow yourself to grow

01:15:12.340 | and emotionally deal with all the beatings.

01:15:14.860 | - They'll push you where past oftentimes

01:15:16.660 | where you would have stopped yourself, right?

01:15:18.380 | Which is great.

01:15:19.220 | And then hopefully they know if they're paying attention

01:15:21.980 | and they're still a person, they can make mistakes,

01:15:24.020 | but they'll push you further than you would have gone,

01:15:25.980 | but not so far that it's not facilitative, right?

01:15:28.620 | That's something that I can say like Faraz Zahabi,

01:15:31.240 | the head coach at TriStar, my head coach for MMA,

01:15:33.420 | Kenny Florin, one of the head coaches for MMA,

01:15:35.420 | have both been phenomenal influences.

01:15:37.260 | Paul Schreiner, who's one of the assistants

01:15:39.300 | at Marcelo Garcia's Academy,

01:15:41.340 | coached me in Jiu-Jitsu for a long time,

01:15:42.780 | brilliant instructor, they've all been able to do that.

01:15:45.420 | And I think what's interesting about all of those guys,

01:15:47.620 | they're very sharp, but they're very intuitive as well.

01:15:50.220 | And I think that Faraz actually told me about some

01:15:53.500 | of the John Wooden said,

01:15:54.660 | John Wooden, the legendary UCLA basketball coach,

01:15:57.660 | just a simple philosophical idea.

01:15:59.540 | Just he said, "Some people's life is a bowl of shit.

01:16:03.220 | It needs some whipped cream in it.

01:16:04.740 | Some people's life is a bowl of whipped cream.

01:16:06.900 | Needs a little bit of shit in it just to balance it out."

01:16:08.860 | And it's an interesting thing,

01:16:09.940 | coaching everyone the same way doesn't work.

01:16:13.060 | That's I think the difference

01:16:13.900 | between a coach and an instructor.

01:16:14.980 | And a lot of times people think they want to coach,

01:16:16.780 | but they really want an instructor.

01:16:17.860 | I'm like, "Hey Lex, tell me what to do, not how to do it."

01:16:20.620 | And then other times people think they want an instructor

01:16:23.800 | and they really want a coach.

01:16:25.220 | And I'm like, "Man, this guy's just giving me information."

01:16:27.220 | A coach is so much more than an instructor.

01:16:28.940 | And that's a huge leap.

01:16:30.140 | And that's something that I think that people need

01:16:31.900 | to understand when they're going into martial arts.

01:16:33.580 | And I can totally grasp why they don't,

01:16:35.340 | because how would they know?

01:16:36.920 | But I think about this a lot.

01:16:38.820 | Like me giving you $150 for a month,

01:16:41.220 | which is not nothing, that's for sure.

01:16:43.260 | That does not, that pays for instructor really.

01:16:45.820 | Coach is a relationship that gets developed.

01:16:47.420 | Because can you imagine,

01:16:48.260 | like just the amount of emotional investment

01:16:50.300 | and time thinking away from like,

01:16:52.420 | "Oh, Lex isn't here anymore, but what can I do to help him?

01:16:54.180 | What does he need?"

01:16:55.220 | Like that's serious.

01:16:56.340 | And that's the difference between,

01:16:58.060 | that's oftentimes the difference

01:16:59.900 | that getting over the hump in various situations.

01:17:03.780 | So it's an interesting bargain that's being made,

01:17:07.100 | like commitment by the instructor who becomes a coach,

01:17:09.620 | commitment by the student.

01:17:11.060 | You know, like there's a financial transaction.

01:17:12.860 | There's a lot of things going on there,

01:17:14.020 | but I feel very fortunate to have had

01:17:16.480 | not just instructors in my time, but coaches.

01:17:18.580 | And that means sometimes we butted heads

01:17:20.300 | and sometimes I look back and I think I was right.

01:17:22.460 | And other times I look back on my own,

01:17:23.660 | no, they were definitely right.

01:17:24.860 | But there was always the trust

01:17:26.780 | with the exception of one time

01:17:28.300 | that I feel that trust was greatly betrayed,

01:17:31.060 | that rightly or wrongly, whether mistakes,

01:17:34.020 | mistakes will be made,

01:17:34.940 | but everyone is attempting to do the right thing.

01:17:38.580 | Under no circumstances

01:17:39.580 | would I intentionally do anything malicious,

01:17:42.180 | you know, versus, "Hey, I might've burnt your house down,

01:17:44.660 | but you can be darn sure it wasn't on purpose."

01:17:46.620 | And I think that as long as there's that mutual understanding

01:17:49.260 | and mutual belief of goodwill,

01:17:51.140 | which again, doesn't just magic up out of nowhere,

01:17:53.180 | I understand.

01:17:54.300 | I think that that's when then great things can happen.

01:17:56.420 | And I look at all the athletes that I know,

01:17:58.660 | the guys and girls that I've watched

01:17:59.860 | become fantastic in various places, almost invariably,

01:18:03.460 | it never happened alone.

01:18:05.260 | - Yeah, I'm really torn about that.

01:18:07.460 | Like maybe you can help.

01:18:09.700 | Have you seen the movie "Whiplash"?

01:18:11.500 | - Mm-mm.

01:18:12.340 | - So it's, I would say from an outsider's perspective,

01:18:16.740 | people should watch it.

01:18:17.580 | It's a, I guess, jazz band,

01:18:20.340 | it's a movie about a drummer and the instructor.

01:18:23.940 | And he is a basically, I would say,

01:18:27.020 | from the outsider's perspective, it's a toxic relationship,

01:18:30.260 | but he's really the coach, whatever we call him,

01:18:33.980 | pushes the musician, the drummer to his limits,

01:18:38.380 | like to where he just feels like shit emotionally.

01:18:43.380 | It looks like a toxic relationship,

01:18:45.900 | but it's one that ultimately is very productive

01:18:49.060 | for the improvement of the musician.

01:18:52.660 | - I have the same, like in my own experience,

01:18:54.900 | I had, I got a chance to train at a couple places regularly.

01:18:59.900 | And so one of my coaches, who is a great human being,

01:19:05.540 | a lot of people love him, but when I was a blue belt,

01:19:08.620 | he was pushing me a lot for competition.

01:19:11.780 | And every time I step on the mat,

01:19:13.900 | I was anxious and almost afraid of training

01:19:20.100 | because of the places I'm gonna have to go.

01:19:23.620 | And then the, I can't, I don't know what's good or bad

01:19:28.620 | because I think I've become a better person

01:19:32.280 | because of that experience.

01:19:33.940 | Like I needed that.

01:19:35.540 | And on the flip side,

01:19:37.020 | like the place I got my black belt from,

01:19:40.100 | Balance Studios, I remember also a blue belt,

01:19:43.820 | the coach sitting down and I was going to competition

01:19:47.280 | and he saw something in me where he said,

01:19:50.660 | good luck, but win or lose, we always love you.

01:19:58.300 | I remember that because I really needed that at that time.

01:20:03.860 | Like I was putting so much pressure on myself.

01:20:06.180 | Like I'm not an actual professional competitor.

01:20:10.400 | I just competed, like I'm a PhD student,

01:20:12.920 | but it was clearly having a psychological effect on me.

01:20:16.860 | And that's what a great coach does.

01:20:19.100 | It's like, you know, it's like life is more important

01:20:22.540 | than jiu-jitsu.

01:20:23.380 | - That's for sure. - It's bigger.

01:20:24.500 | So they find, you use jiu-jitsu when you need it

01:20:28.160 | to grow as a person.

01:20:29.900 | And when it overwhelms you,

01:20:32.580 | you have to pull that person out.

01:20:34.500 | Like look at the bigger picture.

01:20:35.680 | Always look at the bigger picture.

01:20:37.300 | It's fascinating.

01:20:38.140 | And I don't know what to make of it.

01:20:39.900 | I don't think I would have it any other way,

01:20:41.780 | is both the anxiety and the love.

01:20:45.620 | Yeah.

01:20:46.460 | I think that's a really interesting thing

01:20:48.660 | that you're describing that I guess it kind of brings me

01:20:51.900 | back to a lot of the other things we've been discussing

01:20:53.660 | is just almost like the reciprocal nature of everything

01:20:57.220 | where no pressure, that's great.

01:21:00.440 | Everyone's happy all the time.

01:21:01.940 | I mean, let's use an example of sci-fi movies,

01:21:04.780 | let's say "The Matrix,"

01:21:05.600 | which of course the first one was amazing.

01:21:06.980 | And then each subsequent movie made the series worse.

01:21:09.340 | But basically--

01:21:10.940 | - They're working on a new one, by the way.

01:21:12.100 | - Yeah, I've heard.

01:21:12.940 | We'll see.

01:21:13.760 | I was hoping for the best.

01:21:15.120 | But basically, let's say, hey, we started,

01:21:17.440 | our first initial world, Agent Smith says to Neo,

01:21:19.760 | he's like, "Our first world was a utopia

01:21:22.560 | "where everyone was happy and nothing ever went wrong."

01:21:24.800 | It's like your primitive cerebrum rejected it.

01:21:27.480 | And I think that there's obviously,

01:21:29.760 | I mean, what do I think?

01:21:30.920 | But I guess, well, I'm here,

01:21:31.960 | so I might as well say what I think.

01:21:33.720 | I guess great things are fantastic.

01:21:38.720 | A kind, gentle place is fantastic.

01:21:42.360 | And this is, again, why I love "Dune"

01:21:43.800 | because I think "Dune" does such a great job of expressing,

01:21:46.400 | Frank Herbert does such a great job of expressing, again,

01:21:48.680 | the reciprocal nature of these ideas.

01:21:50.680 | Look at "Sparta," for instance,

01:21:52.880 | or at least what I understand of "Sparta"

01:21:54.420 | from reading and also watching "300."

01:21:56.500 | - And reading the Wikipedia article.

01:22:00.000 | - And reading the Wikipedia article about the movie,

01:22:01.920 | not the place.

01:22:03.560 | But that's a hard, brutal place.

01:22:08.360 | And was there a benefit to that?

01:22:10.560 | Like, absolutely.

01:22:11.660 | Was there a drawback to that?

01:22:13.060 | Absolutely.

01:22:13.900 | Is it sustainable?

01:22:14.880 | I would think probably not.

01:22:17.120 | I mean, granted, it hasn't sustained,

01:22:19.340 | but I mean, that type of a thing,

01:22:21.520 | it burns too hot almost,

01:22:23.040 | and it destroys the host at a certain point.

01:22:26.900 | And I guess that type of unforgiving nature,

01:22:29.980 | but entirely permissive has its own issues.

01:22:33.880 | And I guess coming back to what your description

01:22:36.800 | of describing a toxic relationship

01:22:38.880 | is a very dangerous and tricky thing

01:22:40.860 | because it's almost like a bird's eye view.

01:22:43.400 | You see, let's say a husband and a wife arguing.

01:22:46.560 | And you're like, all right,

01:22:47.400 | well, sort of somebody hitting somebody.

01:22:49.360 | I need to keep myself out of this

01:22:51.000 | because I have no idea what, I'm seeing something,

01:22:54.480 | but I don't know what's going on or why specifically.

01:22:57.440 | And again, short of it going to a place

01:22:59.480 | that's just out of bounds, I don't know who's right here.

01:23:03.520 | I don't know who's wrong,

01:23:04.440 | and I don't know what phase of this things are in.

01:23:07.440 | So I guess coming back-

01:23:08.280 | - And long-term what's good for both people.

01:23:12.840 | - Right, it's dangerous.

01:23:13.920 | So if I wanna put my finger on the scale,

01:23:15.520 | I can understand the desire to do them.

01:23:16.960 | I'm like, hey guys, let's break it up.

01:23:18.680 | And that may be the right thing at the time,

01:23:20.100 | but at the same time, I'm not sure.

01:23:21.680 | So I think back to all of the times

01:23:23.720 | that you mentioned your coach pushing you very, very hard.

01:23:28.600 | And then other times going like,

01:23:29.640 | hey, let's put it in perspective here.

01:23:31.760 | I think that's an interesting thing for high performance.

01:23:33.840 | And I think that we're seeing that again societally now,

01:23:36.480 | or at least maybe that's just pops up

01:23:38.040 | on my internet feed periodically.

01:23:40.080 | But coaches shouldn't be allowed to do this

01:23:42.120 | or yell at this person to yell at that person.

01:23:43.960 | Like, well, have you ever been, go to a boxing gym.

01:23:47.720 | It's not a commercial entity, not really.

01:23:49.520 | A real boxing, not LA boxing, not a UFC gym,

01:23:51.960 | like a real place.

01:23:53.080 | You're gonna see what things are like

01:23:56.600 | when it's entirely performance-based.

01:23:58.200 | Go to a wrestling room at a high level.

01:23:59.840 | You know, again, there's left and right limits

01:24:01.600 | and there are such things obviously as abuse, of course,

01:24:03.960 | but, and that should never be tolerated.

01:24:06.320 | But it's not a commercial entity.

01:24:10.360 | I don't need to be sweet to you if you're screwing up,

01:24:13.120 | if you're dropping the ball.

01:24:13.960 | And in fact, recognizing that I'm not doing you a favor

01:24:16.680 | or the team a favor by being permissive

01:24:19.840 | of that type of behavior, I think is important.

01:24:22.480 | Everything in its context and at its time is important.

01:24:25.240 | And I guess I can think again of the times

01:24:26.720 | that I've been put, or had put on me,

01:24:29.800 | like a great deal of pressure to do X, Y, or Z,

01:24:32.640 | or to succeed or to push for success.

01:24:35.320 | And I can't look back fondly enough on those times.

01:24:39.080 | They were tough at the time,

01:24:40.520 | but without that, I'm not sitting here.

01:24:41.840 | Without that, I don't go from growing up

01:24:44.640 | in a very nice family in the suburbs

01:24:47.600 | to fighting at the highest level in jujitsu,

01:24:50.600 | Gi, no Gi, and now in mixed martial arts,

01:24:52.440 | starting a career at age 27.

01:24:54.680 | You know, I don't, it just doesn't happen

01:24:56.600 | because people, generally speaking,

01:24:58.160 | from that background don't get pushed hard enough

01:25:00.760 | physically to be able to make that transition.

01:25:03.740 | And that has benefits and it has drawbacks.

01:25:07.400 | You know, when you stare into the abyss, it stares back.

01:25:09.720 | And I think that that's an important thing to understand.

01:25:12.160 | You know, you stare long enough,

01:25:13.440 | you can become something that you don't,

01:25:15.720 | that you would be sorry that you did.

01:25:17.200 | You don't look enough and you don't have perspective either.

01:25:20.480 | You know, and I think that that's an interesting thing.

01:25:23.080 | I can speak to someone who's relatively,

01:25:25.080 | someone who's relatively articulate and reasonable.

01:25:27.240 | I try to be reasonable, but you know, I'll say inspiring.

01:25:29.960 | If people get crazy with me, they get a warning,

01:25:31.760 | and then I'm gonna crack 'em.

01:25:33.520 | And what did they expect?

01:25:35.660 | Oh, they hear the guy on an interview,

01:25:38.700 | but who did they think they were meeting?

01:25:40.660 | 'Cause there's also the guy in the ring.

01:25:42.420 | - And there's layers there too.

01:25:44.100 | I remember training with you, it's kind of funny.

01:25:47.000 | There's like, there's, well, you didn't know who I was.

01:25:51.820 | I mean, you still like, I-

01:25:53.580 | - You have a really good straight ankle, by the way.

01:25:54.980 | - Yeah, that, so I don't remember what rank I was,

01:25:59.740 | but it might've been purple or something like that.

01:26:02.280 | And I did some, like I, you had this look on your face,

01:26:07.180 | which I've often seen in black belts.

01:26:09.580 | It's like, here he goes again.

01:26:11.920 | Like, here's him trying this thing.

01:26:16.920 | And then when I kind of annoyed you a little bit with it,

01:26:20.420 | now I get that, it was a good, like, I, you know,

01:26:22.820 | I did something somewhat effective,

01:26:24.380 | like some, like maybe a little bit off balance.

01:26:26.860 | - Yeah.

01:26:28.180 | - I just peeled off a little layer of Ryan Hall

01:26:30.340 | to where I was like, okay, let me, let me like,

01:26:34.000 | there's like layers underneath the-

01:26:36.080 | - Ogres are like onions.

01:26:36.920 | - Mike Tyson's somewhere in there.

01:26:38.600 | Like, so it was like, okay, this like new guy rolls in here.

01:26:42.040 | He thinks he can do this stupid thing.

01:26:44.400 | And then you started to beat the hell out of me.

01:26:46.880 | But the point is there's layers here

01:26:49.520 | from the guy who was being interviewed now

01:26:51.760 | to like Genghis Khan.

01:26:54.040 | - But it's funny.

01:26:54.880 | - It's all in the same body.

01:26:55.720 | - Right, but it's like, all of us are like that, right?

01:26:57.520 | In various different directions and recognizing that's okay.

01:27:00.120 | It's just, there are consequences to all,

01:27:01.960 | every choice that we make has a consequence.

01:27:03.760 | Sometimes there's like objectively wrong

01:27:05.500 | or objectively right, but at least in my mind,

01:27:07.160 | that's a pretty small box.

01:27:08.680 | Everything else is just, there's a consequence to that.

01:27:11.040 | Do you like that consequence?

01:27:12.240 | Do you not?

01:27:13.240 | And who do I want to become?

01:27:14.640 | What do I want to try to hone myself or anyone else into?

01:27:18.640 | And also like, but this is something I've screwed up

01:27:20.940 | as a coach plenty of times.

01:27:22.280 | You know, like if someone says, if you're, if like,

01:27:24.760 | I come to them like, Lex, I really, really want to take,

01:27:27.420 | you know, research very seriously.

01:27:28.760 | Like, okay, I believe you.

01:27:29.920 | Now I haven't shown you that, but I believe you.

01:27:32.680 | Like, okay.

01:27:33.520 | And now me not showing up to research or to study

01:27:36.800 | or not being up until three in the morning,

01:27:38.200 | thinking about this is no longer acceptable.

01:27:40.280 | There was a time like five seconds

01:27:42.280 | before me making that statement that if I went to bed

01:27:44.360 | without reading the book that I needed to read, no worries.

01:27:47.480 | But the second that I made that statement,

01:27:49.400 | your expectations for me changed.

01:27:51.440 | And maybe it's something that's something

01:27:52.440 | that I've screwed up a whole bunch of times in my,

01:27:54.840 | as a teacher, 'cause it's an interesting thing,

01:27:56.400 | obviously, you know, being a,

01:27:57.480 | like running a martial arts school

01:27:58.600 | as your principally an athlete,

01:28:00.180 | is sometimes I don't pay enough attention

01:28:03.600 | to what people are doing.

01:28:04.600 | I just go, oh, okay.

01:28:05.560 | You say X, Y, Z.

01:28:06.440 | I'm like, Roger that, I believe you, cool.

01:28:08.240 | I will now put you in category X.

01:28:10.480 | And whether rightly or wrongly,

01:28:12.840 | like maybe this person didn't understand

01:28:14.160 | what they were asking for,

01:28:15.160 | or I didn't express this or the other,

01:28:16.840 | and it just, it caused cross wires.

01:28:18.680 | And then most times you just, you hash it out,

01:28:20.320 | you have a discussion, you figure out,

01:28:21.320 | get to the bottom of what people are trying to do

01:28:22.880 | or what they want.

01:28:23.880 | But if I was paying more attention,

01:28:25.800 | I think I could have been a lot more effective.

01:28:27.220 | Or if I had more experience,

01:28:28.240 | and sometimes maybe I'm not sharp enough,

01:28:29.520 | or I don't, I'm not perceptive enough

01:28:30.920 | to be able to see what's going on.

01:28:32.560 | And maybe with years more down the line,

01:28:33.960 | I'll be able to have a sharper perception.

01:28:36.340 | But I think that's another one of those interesting things

01:28:38.740 | that sometimes I would caution, or not caution,

01:28:41.800 | but just inform a prospective martial arts student,

01:28:44.160 | depending upon where you're going.

01:28:46.200 | You know, both you and also your coach

01:28:48.920 | or other people in the room, they wear many hats.

01:28:50.440 | And sometimes there's a, I had the wrong hat on.

01:28:52.260 | You were talking to me as Lex the guy.

01:28:54.440 | I didn't realize you were talking to me.

01:28:55.800 | I thought you were talking to me as Lex the guy.

01:28:56.920 | I didn't realize you were talking to me

01:28:57.760 | as Lex the martial artist.

01:28:58.640 | I'm like, oh crap, I was talking to the wrong person.

01:29:00.620 | So it's almost like if you had a,

01:29:02.320 | like I run my gym with my wife, she's a black belt.

01:29:05.680 | So she's my wife.

01:29:07.340 | She's my peers as a martial artist in jiu-jitsu.

01:29:11.560 | - She's here by the way in judging, so.

01:29:13.120 | - Exactly, all right, well, all right.

01:29:15.200 | So, but a fellow black belt, and I guess like another thing.

01:29:17.760 | - She doesn't have a microphone,

01:29:18.640 | so you can't hear all the trash she's talking about.

01:29:20.240 | - Exactly, but it can be tough.

01:29:22.080 | And that's something that we've had to work through a lot.

01:29:23.640 | And it's like looking back,

01:29:24.720 | and it's like now being where I'm at now,

01:29:26.400 | and it's easy for me to say that

01:29:27.240 | 'cause she's in the room and I don't want her to stab me,

01:29:29.200 | just continue to slowly poison me over time.

01:29:31.960 | Which frankly, I understand.

01:29:34.200 | You know, it's the sort of thing

01:29:35.520 | that is now way more effective than anything else

01:29:38.520 | I could really reasonably expect to have.

01:29:41.200 | But there were times when both of us, you know,

01:29:43.660 | were justifiably annoyed at the other

01:29:45.880 | because of crossed wires.

01:29:47.800 | And sometimes, you know, you just have a disagreement

01:29:49.240 | anyway or a misunderstanding anyway.

01:29:50.320 | But again, like I coach some of my friends.

01:29:52.920 | I've coached my friend who I've known

01:29:54.920 | since I was four years old.

01:29:56.760 | You know, sometimes I don't go,

01:29:58.080 | hey buddy, how you doing?

01:29:58.920 | Sometimes it's like, what the fuck are you doing?

01:30:00.280 | Put your hand over there.

01:30:01.120 | How many times have we talked about this?

01:30:01.940 | And then you walk away

01:30:03.120 | and you can see him look at you crooked.

01:30:05.240 | And you're like, oh crap.

01:30:06.200 | Oh yeah, he thought I was talking to his friend.

01:30:07.800 | Yeah, well, all right,

01:30:08.640 | we need to talk this one out, hashing out.

01:30:10.000 | And not, he's wrong.

01:30:11.340 | How could he possibly think that way?

01:30:13.000 | Like, oh no, I totally understand that.

01:30:14.520 | But if I was 22, doesn't he know I'm a purple belt?

01:30:17.560 | Some nonsense like that.

01:30:18.640 | And it doesn't come from a bad place,

01:30:20.660 | but it's just, I guess that comes back to society,

01:30:22.860 | to anything.

01:30:23.700 | We only have the perspective that they have

01:30:24.820 | and the awareness that we have.

01:30:26.180 | And so again, going back and going,

01:30:28.200 | hey guys, grace, like I don't expect,

01:30:29.940 | it's not fair for me to go, I fight UFC.

01:30:32.340 | Why doesn't this guy who came in as an attorney

01:30:34.380 | understand how hardcore this needs to be?

01:30:36.260 | I'm like, how could he?

01:30:37.700 | And at the same time though,

01:30:39.180 | if I'm using the language of someone that is interested

01:30:43.860 | in at least performance from a martial arts perspective,

01:30:46.140 | I understand how that could be off-putting.

01:30:48.140 | Let's say for instance, someone that's complete,

01:30:49.860 | like all of that would be out of bounds

01:30:51.220 | in their normal workplace.

01:30:52.560 | But if they think of the gym as my office,

01:30:54.720 | then whether they agree or disagree with what's going on,

01:30:56.800 | they go, okay, I see why that might've happened.

01:30:58.880 | Let's talk about this.

01:31:00.020 | And we can, again, all push forward in a positive direction

01:31:03.100 | that benefits, I guess, everyone's journey

01:31:05.000 | throughout the activity.

01:31:06.040 | - And on top of all that, there's moods.

01:31:08.960 | Like I mean, especially lately,

01:31:12.020 | I think two days ago, maybe yesterday, no, two days ago,

01:31:16.580 | I've never been that cranky in my life.

01:31:21.300 | I think, I don't know what it was,

01:31:23.620 | but I wanted to tell everybody how much they annoyed me.

01:31:28.260 | And it was like, I was just very conscious of this feeling

01:31:31.980 | of like, why is this happening right now?

01:31:35.420 | So I consciously decided, as I usually do in those cases,

01:31:38.660 | to not say anything to anybody.

01:31:40.420 | - How do you do that?

01:31:41.460 | - Well, it's, yeah, meditate because it's not,

01:31:49.120 | I tend to then visualize what's gonna happen in the next,

01:31:53.360 | like how is this gonna make my life better?

01:31:55.860 | Like if I say something that mean to somebody else,

01:32:00.860 | I have just started a conflict that will just escalate,

01:32:08.420 | will continue, will add more conflict to my life.

01:32:14.040 | It'll make things, I just don't like the feeling

01:32:17.380 | it will create, and so you live enough life to know

01:32:20.440 | that it's just like with street fighting.

01:32:25.100 | I would get into a lot of fights when I was younger,

01:32:28.100 | just on the street, but then you realize it's not

01:32:31.920 | like a jiu-jitsu match or something like that.

01:32:33.580 | It's not, it'll escalate.

01:32:36.180 | It might come back at you.

01:32:39.020 | That person might find you again, but more importantly,

01:32:43.420 | the anxiety of it, of having created little enemies

01:32:48.420 | in this world, distorts the way you see the world.

01:32:52.660 | So I've noticed that like, if I'm shitty to people

01:32:56.340 | on the internet, which I haven't been, I think,

01:32:58.700 | in a long time, is like it somehow brings the shittiness

01:33:03.100 | to you more and more, it escalates.

01:33:04.740 | Like the more love you put out there,

01:33:06.860 | the more like the people who put love out like surround you.

01:33:11.860 | - You mentioned forgiveness as well.

01:33:13.320 | Like you said, I guess back to the original,

01:33:16.500 | the Holocaust survivor scenario, where you're like,

01:33:18.460 | oh my God, like you think of the ultimate,

01:33:20.020 | and like I've never experienced one billionth

01:33:23.100 | of that level of pain and horror, and it's like,

01:33:26.180 | and I can't let this little thing go.

01:33:28.740 | I guess that's an interesting thing.

01:33:30.140 | I think you're just making the point in your personal life,

01:33:32.420 | I guess, the same way, right?

01:33:33.820 | - Yeah, and on the internet, it's hard.

01:33:36.500 | I've somehow gotten, I mean, you've had a level

01:33:41.420 | of celebrity for a while, I've recently gotten some level

01:33:44.680 | of like celebrity, and like these people who are just shitty

01:33:49.120 | for no reason come out from all places,

01:33:52.220 | like calling me a fraud or anything else.

01:33:57.220 | - You ever see "Giant Silent Bob" strike back?

01:34:00.120 | They find out a movie's gonna be made about them,

01:34:01.800 | and people are talking shit on the internet,

01:34:03.160 | and they're like, what's the internet?

01:34:04.080 | And then someone shows them, and they're like, what?

01:34:05.920 | And they go to a message board, and they go to Hollywood

01:34:07.880 | to try to stop it from being made,

01:34:09.160 | and they eventually get money for their likeness,

01:34:10.760 | and they use the money to buy plane tickets

01:34:12.300 | and fly around and beat the shit out of all the people

01:34:13.980 | that talk bad about them.

01:34:15.500 | - Yeah, it's tough.

01:34:16.340 | I mean, I'm having trouble with it,

01:34:18.500 | 'cause there's people like, yeah, there's posts and forums

01:34:23.020 | and heated discussions about, is Lex Fabian a fraud?

01:34:26.900 | I don't know, what has he really done?

01:34:28.820 | And then there's people like, well, I think he's an all right

01:34:32.060 | guy, but I'm not sure.

01:34:33.260 | There's literal discussions, and I'm like,

01:34:39.420 | if you increase the level of celebrity,

01:34:41.940 | there's going to be, one of the things that hurts my heart

01:34:45.100 | a little bit is some level of toxicity around Joe Rogan,

01:34:49.020 | for example.

01:34:50.020 | There's communities of people that now talk about him

01:34:54.420 | selling out, for example, all that kind of stuff.

01:34:56.860 | And I don't, and Joe, I've talked to him about it,

01:35:01.860 | is amazing that he says don't read the comments,

01:35:05.740 | he legitimately doesn't read the comments.

01:35:08.020 | His heart and his soul doesn't give a damn

01:35:10.900 | about the comments.

01:35:12.180 | All he gives a damn about is his friends.

01:35:14.740 | Like one of the things that's really inspiring to me,

01:35:18.260 | and that's, I've had a conversation with him offline

01:35:20.480 | about Spotify and the removed episodes.

01:35:24.860 | People are curious for me.

01:35:25.700 | - What's Spotify?

01:35:26.540 | - It's a thing on the internet where I think you can play

01:35:32.380 | Taylor Swift songs on.

01:35:34.460 | - I'll write that down.

01:35:35.780 | - But you can also now play Joe Rogan podcast.

01:35:38.740 | - Oh, cool.

01:35:39.580 | - And they gave him $100 million.

01:35:42.220 | So that's, you know, that's--

01:35:44.900 | - That's awesome, good for Joe.

01:35:46.300 | - Yeah.

01:35:47.540 | But the thing I've had a discussion with him,

01:35:50.220 | and I made a video about it that I took down

01:35:51.980 | because of the toxicity, is like,

01:35:54.420 | it's hard to put into words,

01:35:55.900 | but he will give away the 100 million in a second

01:36:00.580 | if he ever has to compromise who he is.

01:36:04.300 | Like he doesn't, I mean, he already said,

01:36:06.660 | as he talked about, he's made quote unquote,

01:36:09.500 | fuck you money a long time ago.

01:36:11.740 | He doesn't need any more money.

01:36:14.540 | He doesn't care.

01:36:16.060 | It's nice to have money, whatever,

01:36:18.100 | but he'll give it away.

01:36:19.340 | So it's nice to see when people like him

01:36:24.340 | at a level of celebrity, level of success,

01:36:27.500 | and financial success, don't change at all.

01:36:31.580 | They're just the same thing that makes you happy

01:36:34.140 | is talking, in his case, talking shit with his friends,

01:36:37.940 | in the case of most of us, really,

01:36:39.260 | just hanging out with friends, doing the things you love,

01:36:43.540 | in his case, doing the things he loves

01:36:46.180 | without any, like, you know, the Texas way,

01:36:50.700 | the freedom, like without any corporate bureaucracy bullshit

01:36:55.700 | that rolls in and says, well, maybe you shouldn't say fuck,

01:37:00.060 | you know, like more than 20 times a podcast

01:37:02.340 | or something like that.

01:37:03.180 | Those kinds of like rules, like people,

01:37:05.220 | like he says in a suit and tie, they show up and say stuff.

01:37:08.340 | - Oddly enough, people that could never have done

01:37:11.660 | what he's done. - What he does, yeah, exactly.

01:37:13.980 | And it's kind of inspiring to see that.

01:37:16.580 | And I hope people realize how special of a human he is.

01:37:21.580 | He's inspired people like me, like I'm a scientist, right?

01:37:27.580 | So he inspired somebody like me

01:37:30.060 | from a very different walk of life

01:37:32.380 | to be like kind to others, to be open-minded.

01:37:37.140 | I don't know, that is a special dude.

01:37:40.100 | So like people need to support that and treasure that

01:37:42.980 | as opposed to be toxic about it.

01:37:47.980 | I mean, what I, 'cause people really, for a long time,

01:37:53.180 | have told me that it would be awesome

01:37:55.740 | if Ryan Halson goes on Joe Rogan.

01:37:57.860 | I definitely think that would be an awesome thing.

01:38:00.260 | Have you listened to Joe?

01:38:02.340 | Has he been a part of your life in some kind of way?

01:38:05.820 | - Well, Joe's always, I remember watching Joe

01:38:07.980 | on "Fear Factor" when I was a little kid, which is cool.

01:38:09.940 | So I've actually gotten to like from a bird's eye view,

01:38:12.540 | watch his kind of just path through life.

01:38:16.300 | But one of the things that I always appreciate,

01:38:18.900 | and again, I barely know Joe other than to shake his hand.

01:38:20.940 | He interviewed me briefly in the ring

01:38:22.940 | after the BJ Penn fight.

01:38:24.380 | But one of the things that I've always admired about Joe

01:38:27.700 | is that I think he had fucking money from the start.

01:38:30.820 | I think that $0 is fucking money for Joe.

01:38:33.540 | I think, and that's something I respect about him

01:38:35.500 | a great deal because as you say, it's interesting to watch.

01:38:39.500 | It's like you hope that, George St. Pierre's like this.

01:38:43.180 | It's really neat.

01:38:44.020 | I'm not super close to George,

01:38:45.220 | but we're teammates at TriStar

01:38:46.380 | and he's never been anything but a gentleman.

01:38:47.860 | He's one of those people that,

01:38:49.140 | if you didn't know George was famous,

01:38:50.860 | when you walk into the gym, you'd have no idea.

01:38:52.460 | He's not holding court, not doing it.

01:38:54.020 | He's just training and he'll help out an amateur doing this.

01:38:56.940 | If you have a question for him, he'll help me.

01:38:58.380 | Like I'm nobody, man.

01:38:59.580 | He would give me advice and train me.

01:39:01.300 | It was super cool.

01:39:02.420 | And he didn't kill me, which I really appreciated.

01:39:04.220 | He's a gentleman.

01:39:05.220 | But it's like you meet someone and you go,

01:39:08.340 | man, it's so cool that this is the guy who's the best,

01:39:11.620 | that this is the guy who has been successful.

01:39:14.180 | And then you go, well, why are they successful?

01:39:17.020 | Like I said, true to what they're doing,

01:39:18.260 | they haven't changed.

01:39:19.100 | They're the same as they've been.

01:39:19.940 | And I remember I got to TriStar in 2012

01:39:21.700 | and George was already, George St. Pierre.

01:39:24.240 | But I remember watching and talking to people

01:39:25.900 | and they're like, oh man, George is the same

01:39:27.020 | as he's always been.

01:39:27.860 | And it's neat, I see him in the gym training now

01:39:29.500 | and again, giving advice now.

01:39:30.700 | And it seems like Joe has always been consistent.

01:39:33.420 | And it's neat to watch someone not compromise

01:39:36.540 | on their values and not change who they are.

01:39:38.300 | And not, you know, periodically, like, you know, again,

01:39:40.100 | we all make mistakes.

01:39:40.940 | Like you have a bad day or this or that,

01:39:42.580 | and an apology needs to be issued,

01:39:43.900 | or even my bad or this or that.

01:39:45.620 | And you're like, yeah, and they just move on.

01:39:47.140 | They're not afraid to be themselves

01:39:49.100 | and they're not afraid to be wrong.

01:39:50.900 | They're not afraid to make a mistake.

01:39:52.100 | As you mentioned, open-minded.

01:39:53.380 | So I'm like, so what are the correct beliefs

01:39:54.940 | to have about this that I know going in,

01:39:56.780 | everyone's gonna be okay with what I'm saying?

01:39:58.540 | Which is usually the beginning of a conversation

01:40:00.220 | that's gonna go nowhere, right?

01:40:01.640 | And it's neat to see the things, I guess,

01:40:06.100 | that he's created on his own as a result

01:40:08.700 | of the authenticity that's there.

01:40:10.960 | And it reminds me of like Dave Chappelle.

01:40:12.540 | And again, I don't know, I've never met Dave,

01:40:14.680 | but it's neat to see someone that's clearly,

01:40:17.020 | again, authentic in their own way, doing their own thing.

01:40:20.860 | And because of that, they're above the corporate nonsense.

01:40:24.200 | But what's funny, I think the message behind all of it is,

01:40:26.820 | hey guys, we all are.

01:40:28.140 | I can't promise you that I'm gonna have money.

01:40:30.940 | Joe couldn't promise you that he's gonna have money.

01:40:32.700 | Now it ended up working out,

01:40:34.180 | but he was above that nonsense from the jump.

01:40:38.380 | And he just continued to be above it

01:40:39.980 | by never giving it any mind and just going like,

01:40:41.860 | yeah, I'm gonna be a reasonable person.

01:40:43.100 | I'm gonna try to learn.

01:40:44.020 | I'm gonna try to grow.

01:40:45.260 | And if I say something annoying,

01:40:47.740 | you can come and talk to me about it.

01:40:49.020 | We can get to the bottom of it.

01:40:49.980 | And I'm like, if I need to say my bad, thanks, appreciate it.

01:40:52.740 | And I will, and if I don't need to, I'm like,

01:40:54.640 | hey, I still appreciate the talk.

01:40:55.760 | Thanks, man.

01:40:56.600 | I'll shake your hand and we carry on

01:40:57.640 | and we go our separate ways

01:40:58.600 | and hopefully I'll treat you with respect.

01:41:00.040 | You treat me with respect.

01:41:01.440 | And that's about it.

01:41:02.560 | And I guess, I think it's a lesson that it can work out

01:41:05.760 | no matter what.

01:41:06.600 | You don't have to kowtow to like these weird powers that be,

01:41:09.920 | and whether you're at this level or at this level,

01:41:12.680 | but you can live your life the way that you want.

01:41:14.760 | And as you mentioned, talk shit with your friends,

01:41:16.360 | hang out, be happy.

01:41:17.200 | And it just so happens that that resonates with people.

01:41:18.960 | It actually reminds me of like speaking at MIT

01:41:21.360 | and being in Boston is like a good will hunting.

01:41:23.780 | You know, like, again, that's what do you really wanna do?

01:41:26.060 | He could have gone this way, could have gone that way.

01:41:27.740 | And it was an interesting story, but it's like,

01:41:29.980 | this person wants to hang out with his buddies

01:41:32.180 | and wants to do other things.

01:41:33.540 | And again, happens to be brilliant

01:41:34.780 | and happens to be able to do all these other things.

01:41:36.920 | But there was, I guess it's like, at least in my mind,

01:41:40.100 | a story of authenticity as well.

01:41:42.060 | And it was both the same thing

01:41:43.180 | in the Robin Williams character.

01:41:44.620 | And I just think that that's a message

01:41:47.540 | 'cause watching things occur on the internet

01:41:49.780 | as they do now, so many things playing out in the public eye,

01:41:52.840 | I feel like so many private

01:41:54.120 | or otherwise formerly private discussions and disputes

01:41:56.880 | and interactions now become, they all have a,

01:42:00.880 | well, what is this gonna say when it goes public?

01:42:02.920 | So how can I couch what I'm saying?

01:42:04.540 | Or how can I word this in a way

01:42:05.920 | that's gonna get people on my side

01:42:07.160 | to use the right buzzwords and not use the wrong buzzwords?

01:42:09.680 | And it's just neat to see people, you know,

01:42:12.440 | in their own way, flip the bird to the head

01:42:14.160 | because I think that that's just not how a human being

01:42:17.400 | is meant to think or interact.

01:42:19.620 | - I'm curious what you think about the thing

01:42:24.140 | that recently has, you know, me hosting this podcast,

01:42:28.220 | I sometimes think about who should I talk to and not

01:42:32.900 | in terms of like, it's the old Hitler question.

01:42:38.220 | Now, Hitler, I would definitely talk to

01:42:39.980 | because, post-World War II,

01:42:42.300 | because everyone knows he's evil.

01:42:44.100 | The question whether you talk to Hitler in 1937,

01:42:47.860 | like when people who are really students of what's going on

01:42:52.860 | understand that this is a very dangerous human being.

01:42:56.400 | But a large number of part of the world are like,

01:43:01.840 | well, he's a leader who cares for Germany.

01:43:04.340 | So the question I have, it's interesting to me,

01:43:07.700 | it involves a particular person named,

01:43:10.140 | who also lives in Austin, Texas, named Alex Jones.

01:43:13.340 | I don't know if you're familiar with the guy.

01:43:14.740 | - I am familiar with Mr. Jones.

01:43:16.300 | (laughing)

01:43:17.980 | - I've actually recently just listened to Infowars,

01:43:21.300 | like one episode of his show, I guess, that he does every day

01:43:25.940 | and it kind of reminded me of a time in college

01:43:29.460 | when I drank too much tequila.

01:43:31.420 | There's no turning back.

01:43:34.060 | - No.

01:43:34.900 | - It's like, the mistakes you make that,

01:43:37.940 | I mean, you don't know where you're gonna wake up,

01:43:43.120 | you don't know who you're gonna kill or not kill

01:43:46.460 | or steal or rob.

01:43:48.080 | It's unclear.

01:43:49.860 | So it felt like I was getting pulled into a dark place

01:43:54.280 | where pretty much everybody is a pedophile

01:43:58.120 | that's trying to control the world.

01:44:00.900 | So Bill Gates definitely is a pedophile.

01:44:03.480 | Everybody in power, anybody in power,

01:44:06.140 | there's a kind of a deep skepticism about power

01:44:09.940 | and a conspiratorial way to see the world

01:44:12.120 | where everything is like dark forces in all corners.

01:44:17.120 | It's like the way you feel when you're a kid

01:44:19.500 | that there's a monster hiding in the closet.

01:44:22.020 | - Which is also why you leap over the bed

01:44:23.860 | from like four feet away.

01:44:25.140 | - There's a strategy.

01:44:26.260 | - Yes.

01:44:27.100 | - But he says that you're just being weak,

01:44:28.860 | you need to look under the bed.

01:44:30.260 | Under the bed, there's monsters

01:44:32.020 | and we need to be aware of them because they're growing,

01:44:34.260 | they're multiplying, you should be--

01:44:36.420 | - And they're touching children.

01:44:37.500 | - They're touching children, exactly.

01:44:39.540 | So it all connects.

01:44:40.900 | But when I listened to him and I thought about

01:44:45.600 | like do I wanna talk to him on this podcast, for example,

01:44:48.460 | when I listened to his conversation with Joe Rogan,

01:44:54.780 | the two times he talked on there,

01:44:56.300 | to me it was somehow entertaining.

01:44:59.660 | Like it was fun to listen to.

01:45:01.900 | It's fun to listen to a madman go on for four hours

01:45:06.700 | because it's almost like theater.

01:45:10.560 | Like this is what I talked to Joe about

01:45:12.620 | when people try to censor Alex Jones.

01:45:16.140 | Joe says that the people who try to censor him

01:45:20.340 | don't give enough credit to the intelligence

01:45:22.580 | of human beings to like understand

01:45:24.980 | that what a person says on a large platform

01:45:29.780 | does not necessarily, is not the truth.

01:45:32.500 | You can be a madman and say crazy things

01:45:35.360 | and people are intelligent enough to hear certain things

01:45:41.260 | when they're said like the earth is flat,

01:45:43.460 | they can be intelligent enough not to all of a sudden

01:45:47.900 | start believing that the earth is flat.

01:45:49.620 | Like they're intelligent enough to sort of

01:45:52.120 | select different ideas and be able to enjoy

01:45:55.520 | the theater of a particular ridiculous

01:45:57.620 | over-the-top conversation without being sort of influenced

01:46:01.180 | the way they start believing like toxic set of beliefs.

01:46:05.180 | Now there's a lot of sort of

01:46:08.320 | other kinds of people, especially now with cancel culture

01:46:12.920 | that say, well, you don't want to give platform

01:46:14.800 | to crazy people that ultimately whose beliefs

01:46:18.040 | might lead to dangerous consequences.

01:46:21.000 | Like, and I see it very often now with conspiracy theories

01:46:24.740 | that go like way too far.

01:46:28.400 | Like for example, I'm not, I haven't looked into it.

01:46:33.400 | So I'm sorry, I will look into it.

01:46:35.780 | But it hurts my heart to see that on Bill Gates,

01:46:40.780 | in my opinion, the person who has saved

01:46:46.800 | and improved more lives than probably any human in history,

01:46:50.460 | literally, because of the money he's invested in helping,

01:46:54.520 | like just the work he's done on like malaria in Africa,

01:46:58.120 | the number of people he's helped is huge.

01:47:00.960 | And yet every interview, anything you see now on Bill Gates,

01:47:05.400 | everyone is calling him, I believe, haven't looked into it,

01:47:09.360 | but I believe everyone's calling him a pedophile.

01:47:11.460 | I don't know the full structure of it,

01:47:13.320 | but it's just a very, it feels like an army of like,

01:47:17.960 | it feels like it's hundreds of thousands of people.

01:47:20.000 | That's what it feels like.

01:47:20.960 | It might be a much smaller percentage,

01:47:22.940 | but it feels like a huge number of people

01:47:24.840 | are calling him a pedophile.

01:47:25.840 | So that's the flip side.

01:47:27.680 | If you allow, if you give platform

01:47:29.360 | to conspiracy theories like that,

01:47:31.520 | then you start to have bigger and bigger percent

01:47:34.120 | of the population believe in these crazy things.

01:47:36.560 | I just, I wanted to put it out there

01:47:39.200 | 'cause I don't know what to think of that.

01:47:41.880 | If you put yourself in Joe Rogan's shoes,

01:47:44.260 | if you put yourself in my shoes,

01:47:46.400 | if you put yourself just in your own shoes.

01:47:48.480 | - I'm in my shoes right now.

01:47:50.720 | - Great, if you're staying in your shoes,

01:47:52.080 | just stay in your shoes.

01:47:52.920 | - Can I have yours?

01:47:53.760 | (laughing)

01:47:55.040 | - Would you talk, would you give platform

01:47:58.280 | to people like Alex Jones?

01:48:01.880 | Would you talk to somebody like Alex Jones or not?

01:48:06.780 | - Yes, I would.

01:48:08.840 | And I feel very strongly about this, honestly.

01:48:11.000 | Well, I think that it's an interesting thing.

01:48:14.520 | And I would just say a lot of times,

01:48:17.440 | I can understand very, very clearly

01:48:20.000 | why people would take issue with the idea of,

01:48:24.280 | I guess what they proceed to be amplifying,

01:48:26.300 | this man's voice, this man's reach,

01:48:29.920 | as a demonstrable negative.

01:48:32.160 | But I think when you take a step back further,

01:48:35.880 | the cure is more damaging than the disease

01:48:41.240 | and significantly so.

01:48:42.840 | I guess, I think that I'm very, very wary of,

01:48:48.400 | I think being where, you mentioned Alex Jones being wary

01:48:50.960 | of power and people with it.

01:48:52.560 | That's, a lot of times, there's a lot of truth

01:48:55.920 | and validity to crazy things that people say.

01:48:59.480 | It's the conspiracy theories that stick

01:49:01.920 | are the ones that sound credible,

01:49:03.620 | at least quasi-credible in some aspect.

01:49:06.580 | And it's almost like it seems to me

01:49:07.640 | like an anchor in people's mind.

01:49:09.540 | And it is also funny to me, obviously,

01:49:11.520 | that Bill Gates, it's so funny to tar people

01:49:14.200 | with things like pedophile, racist, rapist.

01:49:17.400 | Like these are things that we're basically trying

01:49:19.160 | to pick words that no one can ever support someone

01:49:21.380 | who does these things.

01:49:22.760 | And that's, you know.

01:49:25.280 | - And that changes year by year.

01:49:26.800 | Currently, pedophile is totally in as a thing

01:49:30.160 | to call somebody just as a,

01:49:33.480 | it used to be communist or Marxist.

01:49:35.960 | - Cleveland Browns fan, you know, like, come on.

01:49:38.480 | You know, who would want that?

01:49:39.600 | - Actually, nobody likes the Browns, so I'll agree with you.

01:49:41.440 | - I felt like that was, that's why I picked them.

01:49:42.720 | That's the trick, is you find a group of people

01:49:44.760 | that nobody likes, we're good here.

01:49:46.680 | All right, that's the move.

01:49:47.920 | But yeah, that's a creepy thing, though,

01:49:49.640 | because that is the creepy thing.

01:49:51.960 | It's like, people are always looking for,

01:49:54.400 | groups of people are always looking for,

01:49:55.680 | and I find this really deeply disturbing,

01:49:58.400 | like, hey, so who's the guy that we can all get away with,

01:50:01.040 | you know, just treating like dirt?

01:50:02.800 | Who's the guy that I can be a dick to,

01:50:05.200 | I can just walk up and punch in the face,

01:50:06.840 | and no one's gonna say anything?

01:50:08.360 | And it's, even if, you know, people do that,

01:50:11.800 | whether it's literal Nazis or someone that I called Nazi,

01:50:15.120 | you know, I guess what's the bigger issue?

01:50:16.920 | This person's ridiculous beliefs or what I'm doing?

01:50:20.380 | And you mentioned Hitler before,

01:50:22.240 | and obviously, Mein Kampf being, you know,

01:50:24.360 | like, the outline for some of the things he did later,

01:50:27.000 | and when the evil, was it always there?

01:50:28.920 | Did it take root later on or flourish later on?

01:50:32.360 | But was Adolf Hitler a problem because he had crazy ideas

01:50:37.120 | or because he did things?

01:50:38.920 | I think, it's 'cause, it's not, I think,

01:50:40.800 | I know it's because he did things.

01:50:42.240 | Now, if I'm gonna start punishing thought crime,

01:50:45.360 | I'm gonna have to start punishing thought crime,

01:50:47.480 | and that's a terrifying concept.

01:50:49.280 | Even if I'm right about the certain,

01:50:50.880 | about the objectively correct,

01:50:52.320 | about the things that I decide to call out of bounds,

01:50:55.080 | who put me in charge and made me arbiter of good taste,

01:50:57.800 | and how long until I decide that something else is,

01:51:01.120 | is out of bounds?

01:51:01.960 | It's always a sliding scale,

01:51:03.340 | or it's always a sliding standard,

01:51:05.200 | and I find that, you know, to be more of a concern

01:51:08.900 | than people doing crazy things,

01:51:10.240 | because I guess if you mention Alex Jones, you know,

01:51:12.200 | putting out ridiculous ideas, ridiculous theories,

01:51:15.640 | I think that most people don't look at Alex Jones

01:51:17.560 | as a credible person.

01:51:18.800 | Now, I'm not gonna pretend to be deeply read

01:51:20.600 | into all of his beliefs or the things

01:51:22.280 | that he's trying to peddle,

01:51:24.080 | but there's plenty of things that are quasi-mainstream

01:51:27.600 | that I think on, with this side or that side,

01:51:30.040 | that maybe not comparably ridiculous,

01:51:31.960 | but are, you know, particularly in hindsight,

01:51:34.840 | or, you know, are, were not, or silly,

01:51:37.720 | and I guess the idea of getting a group of people together

01:51:42.720 | to decide what we're not going to tolerate

01:51:44.840 | is a very, very tricky thing,

01:51:46.740 | and I think that, you know, it reminds me of law,

01:51:49.840 | or, you know, even, you know, religion,

01:51:53.000 | when it gets to, like,

01:51:53.840 | what are the things that we don't like?

01:51:54.960 | How do we feel about rape?

01:51:57.000 | It's like, no, under no circumstances

01:51:58.760 | is that an acceptable behavior.

01:52:00.280 | Murder, no, that's not an acceptable behavior.

01:52:02.480 | Killing, I don't know, kind of depends on the situation.

01:52:05.880 | Are you at war?

01:52:06.720 | Were you justified?

01:52:07.600 | Were you acting in self-defense?

01:52:09.640 | Okay, so it's not, now, murder is a specific type of killing

01:52:13.660 | the same way, you know, other things should be

01:52:15.640 | a specific type of something else,

01:52:16.760 | but I guess we draw the line on murder.

01:52:18.280 | We say, if you want to exist in our society,

01:52:20.200 | you can't do this.

01:52:21.280 | This cannot be done, and then we go theft.

01:52:23.820 | If someone said, hey, I murdered that guy,

01:52:25.620 | can you understand where I'm coming from?

01:52:27.040 | I might say, yeah, I'll hear you out.

01:52:28.320 | Doesn't mean that I think you're right,

01:52:29.760 | but I'm like, have you ever been wronged so deeply

01:52:32.080 | that you could imagine that you could kill someone?

01:52:34.200 | I'm like, no, I haven't,

01:52:35.080 | but I could conceptualize someone doing that,

01:52:36.800 | and I'm like, yeah, okay, and you still need to go,

01:52:39.080 | you still need to face, you know, criminal justice

01:52:41.060 | as we have it in our system,

01:52:42.320 | or at least that's how we've decided.

01:52:44.040 | - Yeah, it's interesting.

01:52:45.320 | You have to be able to, like, there's,

01:52:47.040 | if you look at the history of discourse in this country,

01:52:51.040 | I think it's still true, but I'm not sure.

01:52:53.200 | It's changed since 9/11,

01:52:55.360 | is it used to be impossible to criticize a soldier.

01:53:00.360 | It was easier to criticize war.

01:53:05.800 | It was harder to criticize soldiers

01:53:07.760 | for allowing themselves to be the tools of war.

01:53:10.920 | I tend to be, maybe it's the Russian upbringing,

01:53:13.840 | it's the combat thing.

01:53:16.040 | I tend to romanticize war and soldiers.

01:53:20.120 | I see soldiers as heroes,

01:53:22.400 | but I've also heard people that not only say

01:53:25.960 | that soldiers are, war is bad,

01:53:29.520 | they say soldiers are bad.

01:53:32.380 | - What's their argument?

01:53:33.840 | - It's the kind of a libertarian view

01:53:36.440 | that they're basically slaves to evil, right?

01:53:41.440 | War is evil, and they're given,

01:53:45.180 | they are suspending their moral and ethical,

01:53:50.180 | like, duties as a human being to become the tools of evil.

01:53:54.360 | That's sort of the argument, if you see war as evil.

01:53:57.120 | I mean, I think it's useful to hear that,

01:54:01.160 | but there for a long part in history,

01:54:04.160 | that was completely unacceptable.

01:54:06.720 | Same with abortion.

01:54:08.760 | If you see abortion as murder,

01:54:14.480 | I mean, if I classify it in that,

01:54:16.000 | if I put it in that basket.

01:54:17.760 | - It starts, we're living in the midst of a genocide.

01:54:23.660 | - Looked at from that perspective,

01:54:26.680 | could you feel how people could be deeply upset by abortion?

01:54:29.360 | You go, of course.

01:54:30.200 | Looked at from a different perspective,

01:54:31.360 | you say, I don't believe it to be murder.

01:54:33.080 | That's not how I see it.

01:54:34.480 | Then you go, oh, well, if that's the genesis

01:54:36.440 | of your thought process, then you're like, yeah, okay.

01:54:38.440 | Now I see how we can come to a different thing,

01:54:40.840 | but I guess we go, well, abortion is murder, period.

01:54:44.160 | Therefore, if you support it, you support murder.

01:54:47.200 | That's a convenient way for me to tar you, right?

01:54:49.640 | But I guess that's kind of coming back to the Alec Jones.

01:54:52.480 | - It's the nuance.

01:54:55.240 | You have to have the nuance in these kinds of conversations.

01:54:57.360 | - And I have to be willing to have the conversation

01:54:59.280 | and I have to be willing to sit down.

01:55:00.480 | If I can't sit down across from like the most violently,

01:55:03.560 | racist, angry, hypothetical, internet, conceived person

01:55:07.280 | that none of us have ever actually met in real life,

01:55:09.720 | but hopefully not, and go like,

01:55:12.840 | well, of course I believe that this person's wrong,

01:55:15.120 | but allow me to change, do my best.

01:55:17.040 | I'll hear them out and I'll go, no, I can go point by point

01:55:19.200 | and explain why this guy or this girl is wrong

01:55:21.000 | and hopefully bring them over to a more reasonable position

01:55:23.640 | where they will have better beliefs

01:55:25.200 | and they will like objectively better beliefs

01:55:27.240 | and beliefs that will,

01:55:29.040 | and they'll treat other people better.

01:55:30.600 | Why would I wanna marginalize this person?

01:55:32.160 | Now I might not wanna talk,

01:55:33.200 | I might not wanna invite them to my barbecue

01:55:34.640 | if they're acting like a jerk all the time,

01:55:36.320 | but how could I, would it not make the world a better place

01:55:38.840 | if I'd hear them out and they go, look,

01:55:40.160 | if you're gonna sit down and talk with me,

01:55:41.600 | we're gonna have to have a discussion.

01:55:42.920 | I'll hear what you have to say.

01:55:44.200 | And if I can't explain to someone

01:55:47.480 | why their ridiculous belief is wrong,

01:55:50.080 | then I must not be so confident in my position.

01:55:52.720 | And I guess that's where I come back

01:55:53.800 | to the Alex Jones thing, as you mentioned,

01:55:55.600 | with Bill Gates and you're much more familiar

01:55:58.960 | with the specifics of all the good that he's done,

01:56:00.960 | but again, he's been an unbelievable force for good

01:56:04.120 | in this world.

01:56:05.520 | You can list A, B, C, D things that the man has done,

01:56:09.840 | that his foundation has done, and positive things.

01:56:13.320 | And then the other people could speculate

01:56:15.360 | about ridiculous, crazy levels of evil,

01:56:18.920 | but you can't produce any evidence for that sort of thing.

01:56:21.320 | Because if you could,

01:56:22.160 | the man would find himself in some trouble.

01:56:23.880 | And anyway, I guess what I would say is that,

01:56:26.720 | you can't force me to accept the truth,

01:56:30.280 | the same way you could write down two plus two equals four

01:56:32.120 | on a piece of paper and show me how it works,

01:56:34.120 | and I could say, nah, but that doesn't make it not true.

01:56:36.680 | And you've still given yourself an opportunity

01:56:38.360 | to present your case.

01:56:39.200 | You've presented it to me.

01:56:40.440 | And you've also, for anyone listening and watching,

01:56:43.320 | you've been able to critically assess what's gone on,

01:56:46.920 | or critically address back and forth,

01:56:48.800 | kind of the discourse.

01:56:50.240 | And I think that you almost,

01:56:51.360 | you're making your case for the public.

01:56:52.600 | So I guess like, when it comes to just never,

01:56:56.720 | not engaging with these people,

01:56:58.040 | that seems to me to be cowardly.

01:56:59.360 | And I think that that's something

01:57:01.200 | that we're seeing in society right now.

01:57:02.840 | I think we're seeing a crisis of courage in society

01:57:05.440 | all over the place.

01:57:06.880 | And I think that's where we're seeing poor leadership.

01:57:09.240 | I think we're seeing understandable things

01:57:11.800 | happening everywhere, but we need stronger voices

01:57:14.200 | and stronger beliefs that have a conviction

01:57:17.040 | and are willing to engage with others,

01:57:19.080 | not just turning them to a shouting contest and not,

01:57:21.200 | I didn't win because there's more of me.

01:57:22.600 | Oh, I outvoted you.

01:57:24.040 | That's nice too, but that's a stand in for bullets.

01:57:26.400 | That's saying I won because there's more of me.

01:57:28.080 | That doesn't mean that I'm right.

01:57:29.440 | Because plenty of horrible and unpopular now things

01:57:32.240 | have been very, very deeply popular in the past

01:57:34.320 | and would have won a popular vote.

01:57:35.640 | Does that make them right?

01:57:36.840 | I'd say clearly not.

01:57:38.160 | So I guess you'd hope that we engage with these people

01:57:41.400 | and that you can do your best to bring them over

01:57:43.120 | to a more reasonable position

01:57:44.360 | if you believe that you have one.

01:57:45.600 | And if you can't, well, at least you made the effort.

01:57:47.600 | And I think that that's something where martial arts

01:57:49.040 | shows the value.

01:57:50.160 | It's like, do you know if you're gonna go

01:57:51.600 | win your next fight?

01:57:52.440 | I'm like, I have no idea.

01:57:53.560 | I will proceed forward with full effort.

01:57:56.040 | And I will fight with dignity.

01:57:58.480 | I'll fight with honor and I'll fight with courage.

01:58:00.520 | And I'll use everything that I have

01:58:02.560 | and I will play within the bounds of the game.

01:58:04.240 | And that's that.

01:58:05.360 | And the result will be what it'll be,

01:58:06.720 | but I will walk into and out of that ring

01:58:08.120 | with my head held high

01:58:09.080 | because I will know that I did my part.

01:58:10.640 | I did my job.

01:58:11.560 | The outcome, the specific outcome is not in my control.

01:58:14.520 | It's just strongly in my influence.

01:58:16.360 | And I think that that's something that helped me,

01:58:18.880 | that martial arts has taught me

01:58:20.000 | because other times, even when I was successful

01:58:21.880 | or unsuccessful, I would focus on,

01:58:23.960 | if I won, I won, therefore I'm good.

01:58:26.200 | I lost, therefore I'm bad.

01:58:27.560 | This other guy won or lost, therefore,

01:58:29.760 | as opposed to evaluating their method.

01:58:31.440 | And I think it's so easy

01:58:32.560 | when we're taking a bird's eye view of things

01:58:34.160 | to not evaluate how someone's doing things.

01:58:36.360 | You're not evaluating my process.

01:58:38.040 | You're simply evaluating my outcome.

01:58:39.480 | And I could have stumbled into something very, very good

01:58:41.440 | or very, very bad.

01:58:42.720 | And we can look back and I think that's the value of history.

01:58:44.600 | I mean, I don't mean to get on my dang high horse,

01:58:46.640 | but it's like this value of history

01:58:47.720 | is we can see the unbroken chain

01:58:49.240 | or the chain of events that led us somewhere.

01:58:51.640 | And then only with the eyes of history

01:58:53.720 | can we truly evaluate things

01:58:54.960 | unless we're in the room watching it happen.

01:58:57.280 | And I guess that's again,

01:58:59.280 | where we start to go most of the big, bad, scary things

01:59:02.680 | that have happened in history

01:59:04.520 | that are done particularly on an industrial scale,

01:59:07.000 | which implies governmental power and things like that,

01:59:09.560 | or the equivalent,

01:59:10.960 | involve groups of people getting together and going,

01:59:13.280 | "Hey, we're not gonna deal with that guy."

01:59:15.000 | Giant groups of people.

01:59:16.120 | So maybe we're right this time,

01:59:18.600 | but maybe we're wrong next time.

01:59:20.200 | And I guess I would be back to the Gandalf

01:59:22.200 | putting on the one ring.

01:59:23.080 | I would be very, very hesitant

01:59:24.320 | even if we thought we were in the right

01:59:26.080 | to simply try to marginalize just on general principle,

01:59:30.280 | even people like Alex Jones

01:59:31.800 | whom on their face are pretty ridiculous.

01:59:34.040 | Like you said, you should sit down with Adolf Hitler

01:59:35.800 | and talk to the man.

01:59:36.880 | - I agree with you.

01:59:38.240 | To play a little devil's advocate.

01:59:39.840 | - Please.

01:59:40.680 | - Alex Jones might be a bad example,

01:59:44.560 | but if we look at, because he has a face, he is a human.

01:59:47.480 | He's a real person.

01:59:48.820 | There's also trolls on the internet for Chan.

01:59:53.820 | The worry I have with those folks is that,

01:59:59.720 | and there might be parallels to martial arts,

02:00:01.480 | is they practice guerrilla warfare.

02:00:04.000 | Meaning they don't necessarily want to arrive at the truth.

02:00:09.000 | They just always want to cut at the ankles of the powerful.

02:00:14.040 | Like they want to always break down the powerful.

02:00:17.600 | And even if they, I mean, they turn everything into a game.

02:00:22.600 | So they, let's see if we can make the world,

02:00:26.560 | let's see if we can make a trend

02:00:28.120 | that Bill Gates is a pedophile, right?

02:00:30.680 | They make it into a game.

02:00:31.820 | They get excited about this game.

02:00:33.620 | They see the powerful.

02:00:35.000 | Let's see if we can convince that,

02:00:36.600 | like who is the most positive person we can think of?

02:00:39.360 | Let's see if we can turn them into evil.

02:00:41.440 | And they've tried that with like everybody.

02:00:44.800 | And it seems to stick, and they're good at it.

02:00:47.680 | Some would argue,

02:00:50.120 | or whatever you think about our current president,

02:00:52.480 | that he has some elements of that,

02:00:55.080 | which is he's figured out whatever this music

02:00:58.600 | of social discourse that's going on,

02:01:01.000 | he's figured out how to always troll

02:01:03.940 | the mainstream flow of consciousness, the media.

02:01:08.940 | He always kind of says stuff

02:01:11.620 | that annoys a very large number of people,

02:01:14.420 | and he enjoys that.

02:01:16.180 | Because it's like taking the powerful,

02:01:17.860 | taking the way things were before,

02:01:20.140 | and he shakes it up by saying the most inappropriate thing,

02:01:23.580 | almost on purpose or instinctually and so on.

02:01:26.220 | The problem I have with that is that doesn't,

02:01:30.900 | the powerful thing there is it brings

02:01:34.940 | those in power down a notch.

02:01:38.700 | That's a great thing.

02:01:40.020 | The negative thing is it doesn't push us closer

02:01:43.540 | to a nuanced, careful, rigorous discourse towards truth.

02:01:48.540 | It's like showing up to a party and just like starting

02:01:51.300 | to yell, it doesn't create a good conversation.

02:01:55.240 | It just makes everything into a game

02:01:57.260 | where truth doesn't even seem like a thing

02:01:59.900 | we can even hope to achieve.

02:02:02.580 | - That makes sense, and I guess as you mentioned,

02:02:04.260 | we'll come back to another movie,

02:02:05.260 | 'cause I don't do books, I do movies.

02:02:06.500 | Some people just wanna watch the world burn, right?

02:02:08.460 | And I guess that's a creepy, creepy kind of urge

02:02:13.460 | that some people have.

02:02:15.100 | And then also is some people, you're like,

02:02:16.740 | hey, would you like to throw a brick

02:02:17.620 | through that glass window?

02:02:18.580 | You're like, yeah, sure.

02:02:20.100 | Like, no, I'm not gonna do that,

02:02:21.420 | because I think about what's going to occur.

02:02:25.020 | Like something's gonna be hurt, someone's property,

02:02:26.900 | you're not gonna do it, versus, hey,

02:02:28.180 | you wanna see what'll happen?

02:02:29.020 | You're like, yeah, sure.

02:02:30.060 | Kids are always like, I have my son,

02:02:32.260 | he just grabs Spider-Man and drops him on the table.

02:02:34.700 | Spider-Man fell.

02:02:35.620 | Like, Spider-Man didn't fall, Sean.

02:02:36.980 | Like, you dropped him, you knocked him off the table,

02:02:39.980 | and he'll grin.

02:02:41.020 | And basically, it's an interesting thing, like you said,

02:02:45.740 | playing that these people are appealing to,

02:02:48.020 | and also almost like the little dog factor

02:02:51.620 | of like people do wanna watch the powerful

02:02:53.740 | get taken down a notch for all the good

02:02:55.300 | and the not good of that.

02:02:56.500 | There's plenty of people, it seems to me,

02:02:58.460 | that have found their way to incredibly high positions.

02:03:01.380 | Some have just found themselves there,

02:03:03.340 | and many, many, many, many, many people,

02:03:05.220 | you know, men and women of all backgrounds,

02:03:07.860 | are brilliant and have worked hard.

02:03:09.300 | And yeah, of course there's luck,

02:03:10.380 | and there's luck into everything.

02:03:12.500 | There, you know, LeBron James,

02:03:13.580 | in spite of being the best basketball player

02:03:15.140 | on God's green earth, is fortunate

02:03:17.500 | that he didn't get hit by a car.

02:03:18.980 | You know, it's fortunate that he didn't tear his knee,

02:03:21.140 | but thankfully, we get to see all these things.

02:03:23.620 | You know, but I guess it's,

02:03:27.800 | if people don't have any skin in the game,

02:03:31.500 | you never know what they're gonna do.

02:03:32.500 | And I think that's the problem with the internet,

02:03:34.060 | you know, that people get to be nameless, be faceless.

02:03:37.260 | That's why guerrilla fighters are outside

02:03:39.260 | of the bounds of war.

02:03:40.220 | Like you don't have a uniform on.

02:03:41.780 | You're like, I don't know who you're from.

02:03:43.260 | You don't get the same treatment that a soldier gets.

02:03:46.060 | For, and people go, well, that's crazy.

02:03:48.460 | And actually there's reasons for this,

02:03:50.300 | because otherwise people are able to assail things,

02:03:53.220 | and there's no one responsible.

02:03:56.180 | There's no way to go and say,

02:03:57.020 | hey, where did this come from?

02:03:58.500 | What's the root of this?

02:03:59.420 | How can I address this?

02:04:00.700 | And I think that's the problem of the internet,

02:04:02.340 | it's the problem of Twitter,

02:04:03.180 | it's the problem of places like 4chan.

02:04:04.180 | I wouldn't mind seeing that type of stuff go away,

02:04:06.620 | if I'm frank, but that's not the same thing

02:04:08.820 | as people with a face, people who are willing

02:04:11.860 | to stand there and say, hi, my name is so-and-so.

02:04:14.480 | Even if I have ridiculous beliefs,

02:04:15.900 | hopefully, you know, people will hear me out,

02:04:17.460 | and then if I'm wrong, educate me.

02:04:19.300 | But I guess you hope that the real, I guess,

02:04:22.660 | in my mind, antidote to all of this silliness is education.

02:04:26.340 | And I think that that's something that we're,

02:04:29.060 | you know, critical thinking is not necessarily,

02:04:31.540 | I went to school in America,

02:04:32.900 | and I feel very fortunate,

02:04:34.280 | but critical thinking is not something that's focused on.

02:04:37.700 | I mean, and it's tough,

02:04:38.700 | it's almost like talking about jujitsu.

02:04:40.220 | It's tough to teach critical thinking

02:04:41.480 | when I don't know any words.

02:04:42.420 | You have to teach me techniques,

02:04:43.420 | you can't teach me to be an artist.

02:04:45.060 | But recognize that the techniques are the beginning,

02:04:47.420 | not the end.

02:04:48.260 | Ultimately, it's the artistry that we are searching for,

02:04:50.220 | not just the science or the by-rote memorization.

02:04:54.100 | And I guess, you know,

02:04:55.460 | you'd hope that people's ability to think critically

02:04:58.260 | and recognize that majority rule,

02:04:59.940 | or whoever's loudest does not mean that they're right

02:05:01.760 | by any stretch of the imagination.

02:05:03.020 | And we don't appeal to that, and we don't bow to that.

02:05:05.700 | We'll help them to,

02:05:07.460 | help inoculate them against the ridiculous things

02:05:09.580 | that come out of these places, these dark places,

02:05:11.440 | that are objectively not great.

02:05:13.780 | But I guess, all circling back,

02:05:16.300 | if even if we swatted these, you know,

02:05:18.380 | these bad things out of existence right now,

02:05:21.220 | we've got to be very, very careful doing that,

02:05:24.420 | because it's who's doing the swatting.

02:05:26.340 | This political group that's in power right now,

02:05:28.460 | the people that support our current president

02:05:30.140 | would maybe feel a certain way.

02:05:31.340 | The people that support another option

02:05:32.700 | would feel differently as to what exactly defines toxic.

02:05:35.940 | And, you know, I guess that that's what gives me pause.

02:05:40.260 | - Yeah, and but also the grace thing.

02:05:42.540 | I tend to believe that the technology,

02:05:46.860 | you said education, but the platforms we use,

02:05:49.620 | like Twitter and the Reddit and all these platforms,

02:05:52.900 | have a role to play to teach us grace,

02:05:55.340 | meaning they should help us incentivize

02:06:00.340 | the kind of behavior that is incentivized in real life.

02:06:05.500 | Like being a dick in real life is not incentivized.

02:06:08.580 | Like one-on-one interaction.

02:06:10.820 | There's cases where it is,

02:06:12.300 | but usually being kind to each other is incentivized.

02:06:16.400 | On the internet, it's not.

02:06:17.700 | Like you get likes for mocking people

02:06:21.140 | in a funny, in a humorous way.

02:06:23.260 | And it can be dark kind of mocking,

02:06:24.940 | depending on the community.

02:06:25.900 | You can go to the appearance.

02:06:28.540 | If somebody's a little fat or a little too skinny,

02:06:31.780 | you can comment on their appearance,

02:06:33.460 | the hair, the way their hair looks,

02:06:36.260 | like the appearance stuff.

02:06:37.460 | It could be on the people comment all the time,

02:06:41.220 | on the level of eloquence of my speech.

02:06:45.340 | Go fuck yourself.

02:06:46.640 | - I like it.

02:06:47.660 | It's creepy though, watching previously,

02:06:50.060 | like this used to be lowbrow though,

02:06:51.440 | like people doing this type of stuff.

02:06:52.620 | It's creepy watching like our political figures

02:06:54.680 | get into this type of game.

02:06:57.040 | - Yes, but again, it's a little bit refreshing, right?

02:07:01.080 | My hope with Donald Trump was,

02:07:04.820 | is that he would shake up the people who wear suits usually.

02:07:11.240 | Like if you're from DC,

02:07:13.760 | I remember like showing up,

02:07:15.620 | I actually didn't wear what I usually wear in DC

02:07:18.340 | 'cause I was like, everybody's wearing a suit and tie.

02:07:21.780 | When I was like giving talks and stuff.

02:07:23.220 | - Except for Mudge, who wears jeans and a T-shirt.

02:07:25.340 | - Mudge doesn't give a damn.

02:07:26.740 | Mudge is a forever renegade.

02:07:30.080 | But I don't even remember what,

02:07:34.620 | oh yeah, so my hope with Trump

02:07:36.220 | was that he would shake up that system,

02:07:37.900 | to say like, to inject new ideas,

02:07:42.500 | to inject new energy.

02:07:44.100 | Of course, the way it turned out is different,

02:07:46.740 | but like there's,

02:07:48.340 | it turns out that you might wanna have somebody

02:07:50.260 | who's like an Andrew Yang type character,

02:07:52.620 | who is full of ideas that are very different

02:07:56.020 | and inject the energy, new energy into the system

02:07:59.540 | through youthful new ideas versus through the troll

02:08:04.540 | that like, that's very good at sort of mocking

02:08:08.700 | and like playing outside the rules of the game.

02:08:13.700 | But Trump did reveal powerfully,

02:08:16.020 | I don't know what to think of it,

02:08:17.700 | that it's just a game

02:08:20.820 | and you don't have to play by the rules.

02:08:23.120 | That's both inspiring and dark.

02:08:25.980 | - Deeply depressing, right?

02:08:27.540 | - Yeah, and I don't know what to do with it.

02:08:29.680 | I don't, I mean the same,

02:08:31.380 | I'm not drawing parallels,

02:08:32.820 | not drawing parallels between our president

02:08:35.020 | and Adolf Hitler,

02:08:37.360 | but it's certainly, and there's a lot of,

02:08:40.300 | in history, a lot of positive

02:08:42.540 | and a lot of negative things happen

02:08:44.300 | when charismatic leaders realize

02:08:46.900 | they don't have to play by the rules.

02:08:49.260 | You can just flip the table.

02:08:50.700 | It's that Kevin Spacey show.

02:08:55.140 | - Oh, "House of Cards."

02:08:55.960 | - "House of Cards,"

02:08:56.800 | where you just flip the table or whatever.

02:08:58.540 | You don't have to play by the rules of the chess game.

02:09:00.500 | You can flip the table.

02:09:01.980 | - One wonders if that's always been done in private,

02:09:04.220 | you know, I guess, 'cause that's,

02:09:06.060 | I mean, even look, obviously,

02:09:07.320 | the United States is a republic,

02:09:09.200 | but we had Bush, then we had Clinton,

02:09:12.880 | then we had more Bush,

02:09:13.780 | then we had President Obama,

02:09:15.040 | then we were about to have another Clinton.

02:09:17.040 | That's fairly creepy, even on its own.

02:09:20.460 | - But now we added another,

02:09:23.400 | I mean, I'm sure we'll have a generation of Trumps now.

02:09:26.640 | - Gee.

02:09:27.480 | (Lex laughing)

02:09:28.380 | - We, you know, I'm Russian,

02:09:30.420 | so I think we humans like kings still and queens.

02:09:36.300 | There's something,

02:09:37.240 | we're attracted to the thing we talked about, coaches.

02:09:41.200 | There's something in us that longs

02:09:43.300 | towards that authoritarian control.

02:09:45.740 | One of the beautiful things about America,

02:09:48.440 | the Second Amendment,

02:09:50.100 | is we also like individual freedom.

02:09:53.780 | That's one of the unique aspects

02:09:55.940 | at the founding of this country and still,

02:09:58.340 | and for me, is the beacon of hope

02:10:01.020 | that somehow there's the fire of freedom burns,

02:10:05.940 | and like that Texas feel, that gives me hope.

02:10:10.660 | The FU energy that revolts against the power,

02:10:15.660 | which as we discussed, power corrupts

02:10:18.020 | and ultimately leads to sort of degradation

02:10:21.700 | of whoever's ruling the people.

02:10:26.100 | - It's interesting, though.

02:10:27.020 | It seems to me, maybe I'm just,

02:10:28.460 | I don't know if I'm reading this properly when I see it,

02:10:30.580 | but it seems to me that, like you said,

02:10:33.540 | that flip the bird, I'm gonna do me within reason,

02:10:37.780 | as long as I'm not hurting you,

02:10:40.060 | is idea that very much, at least in my mind,

02:10:43.180 | defines the American ideal,

02:10:44.700 | or at least part of the consciousness of the United States,

02:10:47.280 | is under attack to a certain extent.

02:10:49.560 | If only I can think to maybe a generation behind us,

02:10:54.820 | it's becoming more collectivist.

02:10:59.340 | For all the good and also the not good of that.

02:11:01.700 | And it's, not in terms of policy at this point,

02:11:05.820 | but just in terms of consciousness.

02:11:08.740 | And I wonder if that's an internet thing.

02:11:11.060 | People are more in touch with one another

02:11:12.540 | than they've, as far as I can tell,

02:11:14.180 | they've ever been, or at least more than in my lifetime.

02:11:16.600 | And the rest of the world seems much closer than it did.

02:11:20.860 | Living in Virginia, California, seems very far away.

02:11:23.620 | Being on the internet, it's just right there.

02:11:25.220 | I can hear about it, I can see it.

02:11:27.000 | I can interact with people from there.

02:11:29.860 | I remember being in Tennessee at one time

02:11:34.300 | and reading about events taking place in the Middle East.

02:11:38.580 | And that just seemed like a mile away.

02:11:40.780 | It seemed like an unbelievably far distance.

02:11:43.300 | And then another time when you're in DC,

02:11:44.740 | you just feel like, oh, you read about something

02:11:45.940 | happening in Paris, and it just feels like

02:11:47.380 | it's just right around the corner.

02:11:48.720 | Because DC is a seat of power

02:11:51.220 | where things are just occurring all the time.

02:11:52.620 | And I guess you wonder about,

02:11:56.880 | that's where I come back to the group decisions

02:11:59.840 | to not listen to this person, or to cancel this,

02:12:03.240 | or to, we all, the moral majority shall do the following

02:12:06.480 | as opposed to, as long as you're not hurting me,

02:12:09.120 | and as long as you're not hurting anyone else,

02:12:11.140 | I have to let you do, I have to let you be

02:12:13.240 | on general principle.

02:12:14.160 | Even if I don't like you, I'm very free to not like you.

02:12:16.160 | I'm free to speak out against you,

02:12:17.360 | but it is not within my right, and it's not,

02:12:22.160 | I would not be right to attempt to attack you.

02:12:25.680 | And that is an interesting thing, though,

02:12:27.160 | when we see words being redefined, or words being defined,

02:12:30.080 | whether it's toxicity, whether it's violence.

02:12:32.200 | If I think that what you're saying is,

02:12:34.400 | your speech is by itself a violence,

02:12:37.040 | or a precursor to violence, I'm justified

02:12:39.440 | in doing all sorts of things.

02:12:40.960 | You know, and that creeps me out significantly.

02:12:44.960 | Because again, even if it ends up being pointed

02:12:47.080 | in a good direction initially, it's only a matter of time.

02:12:50.060 | And actually, that brings me to another--

02:12:52.920 | Dune quote?

02:12:53.760 | Oh yeah, I got all day.

02:12:56.040 | How much are they paying you?

02:12:57.160 | But, well, yeah, about, say, the Frank Herbert estate.

02:12:59.920 | Not enough, frankly.

02:13:01.060 | (ZDoggMD laughs)

02:13:02.160 | Let's see.

02:13:03.140 | And how many books are there in Dune?

02:13:05.340 | That's a Jen question.

02:13:07.340 | You're also a fan of Dune?

02:13:08.800 | I read the whole series, but not a couple of the,

02:13:13.800 | I read all the prequels as well,

02:13:15.240 | with the exception of a couple.

02:13:16.700 | Is there a book one for Dune?

02:13:18.600 | Dune would be book one, and even the prequels,

02:13:22.040 | it's still all better if you start,

02:13:24.280 | like I read Dune and then read the original,

02:13:26.840 | what is it, six?

02:13:27.680 | And then I went back and started to read some other--

02:13:29.520 | It's like just like watching Star Wars.

02:13:30.960 | You wanna start at episode four or whatever.

02:13:34.120 | Yeah, I think so.

02:13:35.520 | That's the move, and then stop at six,

02:13:38.160 | call it a day, watch The Mandalorian.

02:13:40.640 | Well, I thought you're not walking back here.

02:13:42.680 | No, I like The Mandalorian.

02:13:44.080 | Yeah, it's not--

02:13:44.920 | No, it's not The Mandalorian.

02:13:45.740 | That is what I said.

02:13:46.580 | I was told that I was heartless

02:13:48.220 | for not liking Baby Yoda, who I--

02:13:49.860 | We don't talk about a couple of the movies,

02:13:52.940 | not including The Mandalorian.

02:13:54.380 | The Mandalorian's fine.

02:13:55.620 | It's the more recent movies

02:13:57.180 | that we don't like to talk about.

02:13:58.380 | Oh, the, what's his name?

02:14:00.860 | The goofy guy.

02:14:02.340 | Ryan--

02:14:03.180 | No, no.

02:14:04.460 | No, the creature, the goofy creature with the--

02:14:06.260 | Jar Jar?

02:14:07.100 | Yeah, Jar Jar.

02:14:07.920 | Do you ever see the Jar Jar Binks is actually

02:14:10.920 | like the Dark Lord of the Sith theory?

02:14:12.700 | That fixed the whole initial trilogy,

02:14:14.420 | where like he's like goofing around

02:14:16.140 | and like making it all the way through battles,

02:14:17.780 | and when you're like, wait a minute,

02:14:18.620 | he oopsed his way, walks over to a pool,

02:14:20.660 | does a triple backflip, falls in,

02:14:22.100 | you're like, it's just bizarre that you--

02:14:24.780 | This is the Alex Jones theory of Star Wars.

02:14:27.740 | It's like he's actually running everything.

02:14:29.580 | He was the one that actually was like,

02:14:30.940 | hey, we should vote in Chancellor Palpatine,

02:14:33.860 | or Senator Palpatine, like right before.

02:14:35.900 | They put Jar Jar in charge.

02:14:37.140 | First off, what did they think was gonna happen?

02:14:38.780 | And second off, I just think that'd be great.

02:14:41.540 | You're like, oops, oh man, I guess he's the emperor now.

02:14:44.180 | That would have been great.

02:14:45.020 | But actually, to the cancel and all the other stuff,

02:14:47.620 | again, it's just, you'd hope that it gives pause.

02:14:50.140 | And I think about this for fighting,

02:14:51.100 | because a lot of times, I'll use this example.

02:14:53.100 | People like fight fans and like UFC,

02:14:56.420 | they love people that run out and try to murder each other.

02:14:58.780 | And it's entertaining, and it's super entertaining,

02:15:01.600 | but Floyd Mayweather doesn't resonate with people as much.

02:15:05.340 | It's like people started,

02:15:06.220 | I remember the time when Floyd was not as popular.

02:15:07.980 | Now people think people love Floyd

02:15:09.420 | because he's 50 and 0 Floyd.

02:15:11.500 | And oh man, and finally he had so much success

02:15:13.420 | that we all can't help but recognize

02:15:15.060 | the man's genius and greatness.

02:15:16.780 | But prior to that, oh, he's boring, he's this, he's that.

02:15:19.460 | He fights, he's circumspect, he's cautious, he's pressing.

02:15:24.020 | He's intelligent, deeply intelligent.

02:15:26.720 | And when you watch people go out

02:15:28.940 | and try to murder each other,

02:15:29.780 | you can flip a coin 100 times,

02:15:31.480 | and you could be lucky enough to get 100 heads,

02:15:34.300 | but it's still a coin flip.

02:15:35.820 | And I think that that's what's going on all the time

02:15:38.580 | is people are getting an outcome that they want,

02:15:40.820 | but it wasn't a well thought out situation.

02:15:42.740 | So that's why you'll win by five in a row by knockout

02:15:45.220 | and then lose three in a row.

02:15:46.580 | And then people will go, well, what happened to that guy?

02:15:48.240 | He used to be so great.

02:15:49.220 | And you're like, no, he's doing what he's always been doing.

02:15:51.180 | It's just, it was getting great outcomes

02:15:52.840 | on a coin flip prior,

02:15:54.100 | and it's getting negative outcomes on a coin flip now.

02:15:56.700 | But I guess what I would say is it watches,

02:15:59.460 | it's interesting watching, I guess,

02:16:02.820 | societal beliefs become such a thing

02:16:06.020 | that we're almost adopting on a religious level

02:16:07.940 | if we're not careful.

02:16:08.940 | If when I say religious level, I mean like pan life,

02:16:12.220 | like this is guiding all of my choices

02:16:14.340 | for all the good and the bad of that.

02:16:15.340 | And this is a Dune quote,

02:16:16.420 | is when religion and politics travel in the same car,

02:16:18.660 | the writers believe that nothing can stand in their way.

02:16:21.240 | Their movements become headlong

02:16:22.580 | faster and faster and faster.

02:16:24.500 | They put aside all thoughts of obstacles

02:16:26.340 | and forget that the precipice does not show itself

02:16:28.400 | to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.

02:16:31.300 | And I think that that's, again, the pause.

02:16:33.660 | We go, oh man, thank goodness.

02:16:34.820 | We have this guy that wants to rebuild Germany.

02:16:36.500 | He'll put us back where we need to be.

02:16:38.740 | - And you stop questioning your own judgment,

02:16:41.820 | your own, you stop thinking essentially.

02:16:45.260 | - Right, I'm not allowed to question this.

02:16:46.780 | Oh, well, of course this is correct.

02:16:48.060 | Of course, I'm right.

02:16:49.480 | I intended to do right.

02:16:50.620 | So of course my actions are correct.

02:16:52.300 | I mean, how many times have any of us

02:16:53.620 | intended to do something helpful

02:16:55.100 | and ended up doing something less?

02:16:57.220 | And plenty of people who intend to do harm

02:16:59.580 | could by accident do something decent.

02:17:01.860 | And I guess it's, I'm not saying anything terribly insightful

02:17:06.860 | but it's just one of those where it's hard to say

02:17:09.820 | in the moment and that's where you hopefully caution,

02:17:12.860 | you would counsel some degree of caution.

02:17:14.820 | And that's what worries me with people deciding

02:17:19.060 | that we're all so right about this

02:17:20.580 | or we're all so right about that

02:17:21.900 | and attempting to, rather than win the argument,

02:17:25.260 | silence the counter-argument

02:17:26.740 | no matter how crazy it may seem.

02:17:28.740 | Because I just think that that idea,

02:17:30.040 | even when it's pointed in a good direction initially,

02:17:31.920 | it's only a matter of time.

02:17:33.260 | - You're amongst many things a Jiu-Jitsu black belt.

02:17:39.960 | One of the things that people are really curious about,

02:17:43.320 | white belts and blue belts in Jiu-Jitsu

02:17:45.080 | but also people who haven't tried the art

02:17:47.320 | is what does it take to be a Jiu-Jitsu black belt?

02:17:51.280 | - I think that everyone's journey is a little bit different

02:17:53.880 | but the one thing that the, what is it,

02:17:57.240 | Calvin Coolidge quote, "Determination, persistence

02:18:00.600 | is the only thing that will win in the end."

02:18:03.640 | It will always win in the end.

02:18:05.160 | Not brilliance, not toughness, not education.

02:18:08.720 | It's persistence.

02:18:10.320 | And I think that having the belief

02:18:12.440 | that no matter what happens to me, I will proceed forward

02:18:15.640 | and I will figure out how to make this happen,

02:18:17.680 | hell or high water,

02:18:18.840 | I think is the one thing that ties together

02:18:20.680 | all of the people that I've ever met

02:18:22.240 | that made it through whatever it was

02:18:24.780 | that they were going through.

02:18:25.980 | Because sometimes you can get lucky

02:18:28.960 | and you can have an easy time

02:18:30.520 | or and that luck could be you had a good situation.

02:18:32.880 | It could be, I mean, like in the obvious sense

02:18:34.740 | of like where you're living, where you're training,

02:18:36.120 | what's going on, you had a good situation,

02:18:37.440 | you're unbelievably athletic.

02:18:39.800 | Oh, you're gonna be an astronaut,

02:18:41.400 | you're brilliant and an Olympic athlete,

02:18:43.280 | you know, like, oh, well, that's a fantastic situation.

02:18:45.360 | You know, you won the genetic lottery

02:18:46.760 | and I'm sure you've worked hard as well,

02:18:47.940 | but you also won the genetic lottery.

02:18:49.880 | It's a determination is the one thing though,

02:18:52.800 | because that person could have a very easy go of it

02:18:55.560 | initially and then tear their knee.

02:18:57.380 | And then they're no longer the superhuman

02:19:00.080 | physical specimen that they were.

02:19:01.860 | The only thing that will keep them going is persistence.

02:19:04.600 | And I think that that, I would just say that persistence,

02:19:08.760 | I say, I'll just put one foot in front of the other.

02:19:10.680 | And sometimes I can see the path ahead.

02:19:13.040 | And sometimes it's beyond my vision, but I will not stop.

02:19:16.160 | I may even slow down, but I won't stop.

02:19:18.480 | And that's the only thing that I can say

02:19:20.640 | that I've seen tie everyone together

02:19:22.240 | because there's so many ways to the top of any mountain

02:19:24.560 | and there's so many different personalities

02:19:26.380 | and skills and backgrounds involved,

02:19:28.880 | but everyone carries on.

02:19:31.680 | - So at the core, the foundational advice

02:19:34.200 | is just don't quit, just keep going.

02:19:36.320 | - That's the lesson of martial arts, I think.

02:19:38.400 | We think it's like how to be strong or how to win,

02:19:42.280 | but in reality, it's like how to persist, how to endure,

02:19:44.480 | because all of us have been beaten so many times

02:19:47.760 | and gotten beaten up so many times

02:19:49.120 | and thought about quitting.

02:19:49.960 | Have I ever thought about quitting?

02:19:51.040 | Absolutely.

02:19:51.880 | Have I ever quit?

02:19:52.700 | Never.

02:19:53.540 | I will never, ever quit, ever.

02:19:55.320 | I can say it.

02:19:56.160 | You might knock me out.

02:19:56.980 | I will be damned if I quit.

02:19:58.040 | - What's the darkest moment?

02:19:59.240 | Is it injury related?

02:20:00.480 | (Isaac sighs)

02:20:02.360 | Is it?

02:20:03.480 | - So to me, two possibilities.

02:20:06.040 | I've fortunately never been seriously injured,

02:20:08.840 | but I think that's a dark place to be,

02:20:11.920 | having to be out for many months for,

02:20:16.060 | as Jen was saying, with a head injury especially,

02:20:19.680 | the uncertainty, that's one.

02:20:23.000 | And then the other side is if you have big ambitions

02:20:27.300 | as a competitor, realizing that you're not as good,

02:20:31.900 | like those doubts where like, I kind of suck.

02:20:36.900 | How am I supposed to be a world,

02:20:39.100 | the greatest fighter of all time

02:20:40.860 | if like several people in the gym are kicking my ass?

02:20:46.180 | Those are the two things that paralyze you.

02:20:48.780 | - I think that everyone's darkest moment is maybe different.

02:20:53.780 | Looking from the outside for Ryan,

02:20:55.820 | I wouldn't say that he's had injuries

02:20:57.700 | and he's had bad ones.

02:20:58.540 | I wouldn't say that was his darkest moment.

02:21:00.780 | I think for me, I would say my head injury

02:21:04.260 | was my darkest moment.

02:21:06.260 | Absolutely, and I have torn my ACL twice.

02:21:08.580 | I've torn my shoulders four times.

02:21:09.980 | I've had lots of surgeries.

02:21:12.020 | For me, the orthopedic injuries

02:21:15.060 | were not the most difficult.

02:21:17.660 | It was the brain injury.

02:21:19.020 | For others, that might be the case for them.

02:21:21.140 | Maybe they've never experienced an injury,

02:21:24.060 | and maybe for them, that's their darkest moment.

02:21:26.340 | From the outside, obviously, Ryan can speak to this more,

02:21:29.500 | but for Ryan, I think it was the inability

02:21:32.940 | to perform at certain points,

02:21:35.460 | the missing of opportunities that for him,

02:21:38.740 | from my perspective, watching him go through

02:21:40.500 | and having seen various points of his growth

02:21:43.060 | from early PurpleBot on,

02:21:45.380 | I think the hardest time for him looking in, obviously,

02:21:48.260 | was when he would hit moments

02:21:51.340 | where he wasn't able to perform for various reasons.

02:21:54.380 | He couldn't get fights.

02:21:55.300 | He was having difficulties there.

02:21:57.100 | I think that was the hardest points for him.

02:22:00.100 | - Did you think, with a head injury,

02:22:02.300 | that you might never be able to do jujitsu again?

02:22:05.340 | - Yeah, I mean, mine was really bad,

02:22:09.220 | and it was just the one hit,

02:22:10.420 | but I had a looping memory for seven months.

02:22:13.120 | Didn't know it, because when your brain's messed up,

02:22:14.980 | you're not even aware that you're looping.

02:22:17.060 | - That's great.

02:22:17.900 | - And so, I saw two different neurologists.

02:22:21.820 | I finally, it took a very long time.

02:22:24.380 | I didn't know if I was gonna be able

02:22:26.160 | to have linear thoughts or read a book.

02:22:28.580 | I didn't know, at certain points,

02:22:29.940 | if I could listen to music again,

02:22:32.060 | without it making my head hurt.

02:22:34.340 | And so, it was almost two years

02:22:37.280 | before I woke up in the morning without a headache,

02:22:39.780 | just waking up before I even start my day.

02:22:42.940 | And so that--

02:22:43.780 | - So that's even bigger than jujitsu.

02:22:45.180 | That's just life.

02:22:46.020 | - That's just hard.

02:22:47.820 | And I think that you can experience so many things.

02:22:51.300 | I've had all these injuries.

02:22:53.580 | We lost a baby when I was 15 weeks.

02:22:57.180 | And we've had all these experiences.

02:22:58.920 | And what the hardest point for me,

02:23:01.880 | not saying all those things weren't hard,

02:23:03.760 | but it's kind of like,

02:23:05.080 | when you go through these, you just realize life goes on,

02:23:07.680 | and you have to keep working at it,

02:23:09.200 | and you have to keep going.

02:23:10.120 | And you asked me earlier offline, did I feel depressed?

02:23:13.640 | Not from my head injury.

02:23:16.600 | I don't think that, at least in the moment,

02:23:18.960 | I had any recognition of that.

02:23:21.000 | It's kind of like,

02:23:22.560 | but I think different people's personalities,

02:23:24.180 | I have kind of the like, buckle down and just keep going.

02:23:28.120 | And sometimes it's not until lots of time later

02:23:31.300 | that you realize, wow, that was really hard.

02:23:33.700 | 'Cause you're just struggling to live and function

02:23:36.260 | and do the things that you need to do along the way.

02:23:37.960 | - Do you mind jumping on just like this part

02:23:41.180 | of the conversation just for a few minutes?

02:23:42.020 | - I'm sorry, I need to over.

02:23:43.540 | - Do you mind, no, just sitting together?

02:23:45.720 | - Oh, no, no.

02:23:47.060 | - Just for a little bit.

02:23:47.900 | - Sorry about that, I didn't mean to jump in there.

02:23:48.740 | - It'd be cool if we put a face to it.

02:23:50.840 | - No, no, no.

02:23:51.920 | Is it okay with you?

02:23:54.000 | - Yeah, it's fine with me, it's fine with you.

02:23:56.320 | - By the way, what was the head injury,

02:23:58.240 | if you don't mind sharing?

02:23:59.560 | - Someone had dropped their knee

02:24:00.940 | on the back of my head during training.

02:24:02.520 | It was a lot bigger than me.

02:24:04.280 | So one strike to the back of the head is too much for,

02:24:09.280 | there's a reason that's outlawed in MMA, right?

02:24:11.520 | Someone 50 pounds heavier than you drops their knee

02:24:13.360 | on the back of your head once and it's.

02:24:15.560 | - That's the funny thing about getting hit, right?

02:24:16.960 | You never can really be sure what's gonna happen.

02:24:19.660 | I think that's actually one of the magical parts

02:24:21.080 | about Jiu-Jitsu, where if you choke me,

02:24:23.080 | we know what's gonna occur.

02:24:26.120 | You hit someone, they might be completely unharmed.

02:24:29.240 | You might be punching Tony Ferguson in the face

02:24:31.080 | and you need to hit him with a sledgehammer

02:24:33.200 | to affect this man.

02:24:34.440 | And then other people, they could get really badly hurt,

02:24:36.840 | which I guess, back to your point about street fighting

02:24:39.440 | and things like that and the serious, serious potential,

02:24:42.440 | second, third order consequences of any action that we take.

02:24:45.520 | But yeah, that's a tricky thing about getting hit.

02:24:48.160 | - How does it make you feel that,

02:24:50.140 | like the really shitty thing about injuries to me

02:24:54.220 | was that like, you start thinking like,

02:24:56.780 | well, if I did this one little thing different,

02:24:59.500 | like this wouldn't have happened today.

02:25:01.820 | Like one moment changes your entire life.

02:25:05.340 | Is that, do you think that way

02:25:08.020 | or is that totally counterproductive?

02:25:10.780 | - You can't help but think that way

02:25:12.380 | when you've had the amount of injuries I've had now,

02:25:14.500 | 'cause I've had more than most people's fair share.

02:25:18.280 | As my orthopedic says, you don't wanna win that.

02:25:20.940 | You don't wanna win the contest of who's had the most.

02:25:23.380 | - But since you have, thanks for building me a pool.

02:25:25.380 | - Yeah, but I think you can't help but think that way

02:25:29.820 | sometimes, but I definitely don't think it's,

02:25:32.320 | I think it can be facilitative

02:25:33.700 | if you don't beat yourself up too much.

02:25:36.040 | Because thinking about why have I been subject

02:25:40.420 | to so many injuries and a lot of it comes to just

02:25:45.440 | almost all of mine in particular,

02:25:46.980 | people a lot heavier than me.

02:25:49.020 | But if I've been training martial arts 15 years,

02:25:50.940 | I'm obviously on the much smaller side, I'm a woman.

02:25:53.380 | I've done thousands and thousands of rounds

02:25:56.620 | with people 50 pounds plus heavier than me.

02:25:58.940 | I mean, years not training with anyone less than 50 pounds,

02:26:01.700 | which is 50 pounds is almost half my body weight.

02:26:03.980 | And when you also add testosterone

02:26:05.540 | and the natural physiological advantages of men,

02:26:08.820 | not just are they heavier with more mass,

02:26:10.740 | they're faster and more explosive,

02:26:11.980 | they're stronger if they're the same size.

02:26:14.800 | And so I think that the willingness to be in that environment

02:26:19.800 | over and over and over again creates a lot of strength,

02:26:22.780 | resiliency, willingness to continue.

02:26:24.860 | But it also, in order to do that, you almost have to,

02:26:29.740 | for me, the way I was approaching it was like,

02:26:33.020 | pretend like I wasn't more vulnerable

02:26:36.580 | and just be willing to step in and step in and step in.

02:26:39.260 | - Take it until you make it kind of thing?

02:26:40.100 | - Take it until you make it kind of, yeah,

02:26:42.140 | like I'll just one day I'll be strong enough.

02:26:44.780 | - And you avoided injury for most of it.

02:26:47.620 | - For most of those rounds I would injury.

02:26:49.280 | The problem, as Ryan points out,

02:26:50.640 | is that you could do thousands of rounds,

02:26:52.360 | but if one person that size, that strength,

02:26:54.800 | that hover reacts in a way that you don't expect,

02:26:57.760 | it's not like an oops, it's like always major.

02:27:00.880 | - Do you regret any of it?

02:27:02.700 | - I think that most, no one I know has experienced

02:27:05.480 | the degree of injuries that I've experienced.

02:27:07.840 | And I started just at a time when,

02:27:09.700 | in 2005 it was very different than now,

02:27:12.480 | where you have, the coaches have more control

02:27:14.900 | over what you're doing.

02:27:15.940 | They're more aware in general about a lot of the injuries.

02:27:19.340 | There's a lot more people who are hobbyists

02:27:24.340 | than when I started.

02:27:26.380 | They were hobbyists, but it was different kind of hobbyist,

02:27:28.620 | you know, than now.

02:27:29.640 | Now our girls can train with other girls.

02:27:33.700 | They don't have to do thousands of rounds

02:27:35.540 | with somebody significantly more powerful than them.

02:27:39.220 | And for the drawbacks and the benefits of that,

02:27:43.540 | you know, as with anything.

02:27:44.900 | So I think that I don't think I would go back and change it.

02:27:50.980 | There were times after one of my injuries

02:27:53.140 | where I said to Ryan, I said, "I quit, I'm done.

02:27:56.460 | "I'm not doing this anymore."

02:27:57.300 | I probably said it more than once,

02:27:58.180 | but there was one time I was really serious in 2012.

02:28:01.220 | I was really serious.

02:28:03.520 | I tore my shoulder.

02:28:04.580 | I was looking at missing a big competition again

02:28:07.260 | in the world for my second or third year in a row

02:28:09.620 | after injuries.

02:28:10.460 | And I said, I'd quit my job two years before.

02:28:12.980 | And I'm like, I'm done.

02:28:15.500 | And Ryan, before that had always been, you know,

02:28:18.900 | keep me focused.

02:28:19.740 | And then he kind of said, "Okay, if you want to be done,

02:28:21.580 | "be done, just have a good time."

02:28:24.060 | And I'm like, "No, I'm really done.

02:28:25.580 | "I don't even want to train anymore."

02:28:26.620 | He's like, "Okay, okay."

02:28:27.940 | And then, you know, I think he helped facilitate a moment

02:28:31.700 | for me to go visit a friend, some friends,

02:28:35.100 | some girls that were doing a girls camp

02:28:37.260 | who are close to my size,

02:28:38.340 | who are some friends of mine to go train.

02:28:39.660 | And I was like, "Oh, wait, I do love this thing.

02:28:42.200 | "It's just harder for me on a daily basis,

02:28:44.180 | "but that doesn't mean I don't love this thing."

02:28:46.080 | And it really helped change my mind.

02:28:47.860 | I started to connect with some other people,

02:28:49.300 | travel more myself, 'cause previously he had done that,

02:28:52.980 | but I hadn't really done that.

02:28:54.920 | I think there was a point where,

02:28:57.220 | when I started Jiu-Jitsu, it was just for fun.

02:28:59.060 | I just wanted to sport after college.

02:29:00.620 | I played sports as a kid.

02:29:01.740 | I just wanted to exercise.

02:29:03.340 | I wasn't into the martial arts.

02:29:04.700 | He used to give me a hard time about it

02:29:05.740 | 'cause he was always very,

02:29:06.680 | "How can you not care about martial arts?"

02:29:08.140 | I don't know, I just want to play sports.

02:29:10.180 | And Ryan was really big into kind of the philosophy side

02:29:14.060 | of the martial arts aspect.

02:29:16.100 | He used to give me a hard time.

02:29:17.140 | And I think after that moment,

02:29:18.580 | this moment where I looked at myself and I said,

02:29:20.160 | "Do I want to keep doing this?"

02:29:21.660 | Is when I started to appreciate Jiu-Jitsu.

02:29:24.300 | It took off some of the pressure I'd been feeling,

02:29:26.240 | I think, as Ryan's girlfriend,

02:29:28.260 | but I had a full-time job a long time.

02:29:30.080 | It was never my goal to be a Jiu-Jitsu world champion.

02:29:33.500 | And I think after that moment where I was like,

02:29:36.180 | "You know, I really do like this.

02:29:37.540 | "I really do want to keep this."

02:29:38.700 | I had this moment, like any time where you're like,

02:29:40.660 | "I'm doing this for me.

02:29:41.500 | "I'm not doing this for him."

02:29:42.940 | And I think that that was really lucky for me

02:29:47.940 | because how often in our lives do we have a kind of

02:29:51.340 | a challenge where we have to stop and we have to say,

02:29:54.040 | "Is this really what I want?"

02:29:55.580 | How often in a relationship do you do that?

02:29:57.340 | How often in any type of lifestyle or job do you stop

02:30:01.260 | and do you really ask yourself,

02:30:02.300 | does something really difficult happen that you look

02:30:04.900 | and you go, "Am I just doing this

02:30:06.620 | "because it's convenient and easy

02:30:08.120 | "or is this what I really want to do?"

02:30:09.900 | - Yeah, I've had those moments.

02:30:11.660 | Like this podcast is one of those things.

02:30:14.580 | It's like you stop and think like,

02:30:19.120 | "I actually love this."

02:30:20.740 | And I had that with Jiu-Jitsu too.

02:30:23.780 | I don't think I had sat until like Brown Belt that I stopped.

02:30:28.580 | I mean, yeah, it's when you first face real challenges,

02:30:31.780 | you think like, "Why am I doing this?"

02:30:34.900 | I think most of my progression was, "Why not?"

02:30:38.740 | I think that's the leap of faith.

02:30:40.820 | And then at a certain point you think like,

02:30:42.980 | "Why am I doing this?"

02:30:45.220 | And if you can answer honestly that because I love it,

02:30:49.420 | it's kind of a liberating feeling.

02:30:51.180 | Yeah, it's so powerful.

02:30:54.700 | It's an acceptance. - Well, you feel thankful

02:30:55.620 | for the opportunity to be there, right?

02:30:57.700 | Because you love it and you go, "Man, I..."

02:30:59.180 | - Yeah, it's great gratitude.

02:31:00.740 | - Yeah, it's ultimately gratitude.

02:31:02.900 | Yeah, let me ask you this.

02:31:04.540 | So Ryan said like, what is it?

02:31:06.780 | - I took over your thing.

02:31:07.620 | - Yeah, no, nobody cares about Ryan.

02:31:10.740 | - I wouldn't.

02:31:11.580 | - Yeah, I'll Photoshop him out or whatever.

02:31:13.380 | However you had to do that.

02:31:14.220 | - If you do that, it'd be great.

02:31:15.060 | Just put Sean Connery's head.

02:31:16.420 | - Just like a Dune ad over here.

02:31:19.740 | - Exactly.

02:31:20.580 | (laughing)

02:31:21.420 | - Sean Connery, I can get down that.

02:31:23.660 | - Is that the sexiest man in Sean Connery?

02:31:26.260 | - In the Dune universe, that's my understanding.

02:31:28.940 | - I think in any universe.

02:31:30.660 | - Yeah, well, my gosh, I didn't give him.

02:31:32.460 | - We actually named our son after Sean Connery.

02:31:34.940 | - Oh yeah.

02:31:35.780 | - That's right.

02:31:36.620 | - We did.

02:31:37.440 | - Three, five nos and a yesh, yesh, yesh.

02:31:38.280 | (laughing)

02:31:39.420 | - He was in "The Rock."

02:31:40.620 | I love all those lame,

02:31:42.900 | - Nicolas Cage.

02:31:43.900 | Oh yeah.

02:31:44.740 | - Conair's probably the greatest movie of all time.

02:31:46.860 | - Dude, his accent in Conair was so awesome.

02:31:49.300 | - I don't know where it's from.

02:31:50.220 | Alabama, I guess, or something.

02:31:51.740 | - I love that they got like Steve Buscemi in there.

02:31:53.420 | They're like, "We need Steve Buscemi in this thing."

02:31:54.940 | And we got him.

02:31:55.780 | - Dave Chappelle?

02:31:56.820 | - Yeah, that's right.

02:31:57.660 | - He's a prisoner in there.

02:31:58.980 | - "8 Ball."

02:31:59.820 | - That's right.

02:32:00.660 | - Yep, greatest movie of all time.

02:32:02.700 | Should have won an Oscar.

02:32:03.540 | - Dave Chappelle also in "Blue Street" with Martin Lawrence.

02:32:06.900 | And in, what do you call it, "Robin Hood Men in Tights."

02:32:09.180 | - Oh, "Robin Hood Men in Tights"

02:32:10.020 | was one of my favorites as a kid.

02:32:11.460 | - I've baked, but yeah, that's a good.

02:32:14.640 | Wow, we just listed off some really bad '90s movies, but.

02:32:19.900 | - You take that back.

02:32:20.940 | - For telling our age.

02:32:22.180 | - Yeah, it's all right.

02:32:23.380 | Speak for yourself.

02:32:24.900 | - So what, like, in your view,

02:32:27.440 | I don't mean to, from a smaller person, I guess,

02:32:30.620 | that's an interesting thing about jujitsu is that small,

02:32:34.980 | I don't, hopefully it's not a bad thing.

02:32:38.620 | - Elf.

02:32:39.460 | (laughing)

02:32:40.300 | Elves are taller.

02:32:41.780 | - Like, with all these bigger people,

02:32:46.140 | you can still enjoy the art.

02:32:48.060 | Like, what does it take to get a black belt,

02:32:50.180 | to excel, to quote-unquote master the art?

02:32:54.220 | - Gosh, everyone has such a different path.

02:32:55.940 | Brian's promoted six, seven people.

02:32:59.160 | - Something like that.

02:33:00.000 | - And I think about half of them have had,

02:33:02.580 | have kids, have families, have other careers.

02:33:08.180 | At the time, some of them competed a lot,

02:33:10.480 | some of them have never competed or rarely competed.

02:33:13.480 | Some haven't competed in a long time.

02:33:15.720 | Some had started different places.

02:33:17.680 | Everyone's had different journeys,

02:33:19.680 | even in our own little group of seven.

02:33:22.720 | I think only, maybe only two or three

02:33:25.540 | were high-level competitors of that group

02:33:29.500 | at the higher belts, right?

02:33:30.700 | Like brown, black, maybe.

02:33:33.580 | And so, it's just different for every person.

02:33:36.420 | And that's something that we try to tell our,

02:33:38.400 | since we have 400 students,

02:33:40.220 | and do we have, we don't really have anyone

02:33:43.660 | who's a stated, other than like the coaches, like Adam,

02:33:48.460 | but we don't have anyone that's like a stated

02:33:50.100 | high-level competitor as a student at the moment.

02:33:52.300 | People look at our gym and go,

02:33:53.500 | "Oh, it's lots of competitors."

02:33:54.340 | It's not lots of competitors.

02:33:55.340 | It's never been lots of competitors.

02:33:57.920 | And we've had ones and twos here and there.

02:34:00.840 | But really, everybody's in it for the long-term

02:34:03.780 | if they're in it.

02:34:04.620 | Sometimes the high-level competitors

02:34:06.220 | are the ones that are more likely to drop off

02:34:07.760 | because they have a bit of success,

02:34:09.640 | particularly at blue or purple,

02:34:11.480 | and then they realize how hard it is at brown and black,

02:34:13.820 | and then they have a hard time continuing on that path.

02:34:17.240 | And then they can't look at themselves as a non-competitor.

02:34:19.440 | They have a hard time continuing with jujitsu, I think.

02:34:22.060 | Whereas sometimes it's the guy who comes in

02:34:24.080 | as a white belt and he trains twice a week, every week,

02:34:27.460 | and the next thing you know,

02:34:28.440 | he's been there for two or three years.

02:34:29.940 | Like, "Oh, he's a blue belt.

02:34:30.860 | He's a purple belt.

02:34:31.700 | He's a brown belt."

02:34:32.580 | And he's just consistent over a long period of time

02:34:36.240 | and willing to take the path.

02:34:38.080 | And no two people's path is exactly the same.

02:34:40.480 | No two people's lives are exactly the same.

02:34:42.680 | We have students who started as a white belt,

02:34:45.940 | as a young adult with no responsibilities,

02:34:50.460 | and they train all the time.

02:34:51.460 | And then they have a job,

02:34:53.580 | then they graduate college,

02:34:54.620 | then they have a job,

02:34:55.460 | then they have married,

02:34:56.280 | then they have kids,

02:34:57.120 | then they have different points in their careers.

02:34:58.140 | And at different points in your life,

02:34:59.740 | jujitsu will be there for whatever way

02:35:03.620 | that you're willing to accept it.

02:35:05.180 | It's place, I think.

02:35:06.940 | Well, that's actually kind of what,

02:35:08.100 | back to the initial question we discussed about

02:35:10.580 | what makes a warrior.

02:35:11.760 | And also what makes something or someone

02:35:15.380 | particularly impressive in my mind

02:35:16.940 | is what they make out of what they have.

02:35:20.780 | One of my favorite movies ever is Forrest Gump.

02:35:23.020 | And it's obviously, it's just,

02:35:25.060 | if you can't, 'cause I've heard people,

02:35:26.780 | like, "Oh, Forrest Gump sucks."

02:35:27.700 | I'm like, "I don't like you as a person."

02:35:29.140 | And like, you have no heart at all.

02:35:32.380 | But basically, it's the story of someone that tries hard.

02:35:35.460 | And it's like, yeah, but it's a funny movie.

02:35:37.860 | But it's like, I guess you meet each person where they are.

02:35:42.860 | And obviously, you want, everyone needs to be pushed.

02:35:46.060 | We all need to be pushed.

02:35:47.060 | We need friends and people around us

02:35:48.680 | that push us to be better versions of ourselves

02:35:51.440 | all the time.

02:35:52.280 | And as you mentioned,

02:35:53.100 | the people you spend all of your time around

02:35:54.740 | deeply impact you.

02:35:56.140 | And we have to be willing to be pushed.

02:35:58.740 | It takes a leap of faith for me to trust,

02:36:00.500 | for me to put some of myself in my,

02:36:04.780 | I guess, my ability, my control, my personal agency,

02:36:07.540 | as it were, in the hands of someone else

02:36:09.540 | that I trust and that I respect.

02:36:12.200 | But if I can do that, again,

02:36:15.200 | maybe I never become high-level black belt competitor.

02:36:18.840 | But I had four of the things I was doing in my life.

02:36:21.280 | I also have a family.

02:36:22.220 | I have this, I have that.

02:36:23.380 | What that person was able to accomplish

02:36:24.900 | in the martial arts

02:36:25.740 | relative to what they were able to put in this phenomenal.

02:36:28.320 | Other times, someone could be a very successful black belt

02:36:30.860 | and in my mind, be a bum

02:36:32.180 | because they could have been a lot more.

02:36:33.680 | And they could have done more.

02:36:35.620 | They could have focused more.

02:36:37.100 | And there's no shame in deciding

02:36:39.340 | that you don't wanna do that.

02:36:40.420 | But whatever it is that you're invested in,

02:36:42.820 | I remember the "Take It Uneasy" podcast.

02:36:45.700 | And that I loved because I'll just chill out.

02:36:49.720 | I like resting.

02:36:50.560 | It's like vacation.

02:36:51.380 | Oh, who wants to go on vacation?

02:36:52.220 | Yeah, I'll go on vacation for a day or two.

02:36:53.360 | You wanna spend three weeks on vacation?

02:36:54.560 | Like, I kill myself.

02:36:55.400 | Like, get me out of here.

02:36:56.220 | Like, this is horrible.

02:36:57.060 | This is, I'm a waste of life.

02:36:58.400 | I'm not doing anything useful.

02:36:59.680 | - You're technically on vacation right now.

02:37:01.520 | - Right, well, this is fun though.

02:37:02.360 | - This is like a one-day vacation.

02:37:04.160 | - Exactly, but if you had,

02:37:06.360 | I'm sure you're thinking about jumping off

02:37:08.080 | of the building right now.

02:37:09.000 | But if you had to talk to me for like three days,

02:37:12.080 | I'm sure you'd probably shove me off the building.

02:37:13.760 | I don't blame you.

02:37:14.600 | - I would be dead.

02:37:15.440 | - People, yeah.

02:37:16.260 | - Five hours in.

02:37:17.100 | - But yeah, but you know,

02:37:17.940 | it's like you wanna be pushing towards something.

02:37:20.560 | 'Cause otherwise, what's the purpose of being here?

02:37:22.640 | You know, it's not just a college.

02:37:24.160 | It's doing something useful,

02:37:26.360 | building, growing as a person,

02:37:27.740 | helping others do the same,

02:37:28.840 | if that's within your power at any given time.

02:37:31.360 | But I think that's kind of the neat thing

02:37:32.800 | about martial arts is it can be many,

02:37:34.160 | many different things to many different people.

02:37:36.320 | You know, I finally, for instance,

02:37:37.480 | was able to get a college degree this year.

02:37:40.360 | That which, I mean, it's not a big deal for most people,

02:37:42.480 | but for me, it was a big deal because I was--

02:37:43.960 | - You went back and finished.

02:37:45.080 | - Yeah, and I never envisioned ever going back.

02:37:47.520 | And you know--

02:37:48.360 | - That's a hard step to go back and finish.

02:37:50.680 | That's a, it weighs heavy on you if you don't.

02:37:53.920 | It's interesting.

02:37:54.760 | - Yeah, I was just, I was more proud of that

02:37:56.540 | than most things I've ever done, if I'm honest.

02:37:58.080 | You know, and it was neat and I really enjoyed it.

02:37:59.900 | And it was the process of doing it,

02:38:01.260 | but you know, are my academic credentials impressive?

02:38:05.000 | Like not in the least.

02:38:06.400 | But for me, it's like it was a big deal for me personally

02:38:09.440 | to take that step and to go back and do that.

02:38:11.880 | And I was proud of the direction.

02:38:14.800 | And 'cause it would have been easy.

02:38:15.960 | Like, do I need to do it?

02:38:16.800 | Like, no, I'm, you know, I have business.

02:38:18.000 | I'll do okay.

02:38:18.840 | I'll try, I'll keep fighting.

02:38:19.960 | But I was happy to take the time in between fights

02:38:23.000 | when I was unbooked for an opponent

02:38:25.840 | to do something productive,

02:38:27.200 | rather than just, I'll just hang out.

02:38:28.400 | You know, like I can still train every single day,

02:38:30.000 | but I can also train and go to school.

02:38:31.400 | People go to the Olympics while going to school.

02:38:33.160 | I can do martial arts and go to school.

02:38:37.280 | - One thing I gotta ask is, you know,

02:38:40.520 | a bunch of women listen to this podcast.

02:38:44.240 | If they haven't done jujitsu,

02:38:45.960 | I think it'd be kind of intimidating

02:38:48.360 | to step on the mat with a bunch of bros

02:38:51.000 | that like enjoy somehow killing each other.

02:38:55.540 | Like, how do you succeed in that environment

02:38:58.600 | to where you can learn this art,

02:39:00.360 | learn how to beat all those people up?

02:39:02.480 | - Oh gosh.

02:39:05.040 | - Is there any advice?

02:39:05.960 | I mean, another way to ask that is like,

02:39:07.960 | and you women listening to this

02:39:11.000 | are interested in starting jujitsu,

02:39:12.520 | like is there advice for that journey?

02:39:14.680 | - Honestly, I think it's just walking in the door

02:39:17.040 | and starting.

02:39:18.000 | Sometimes I don't know how to respond to that

02:39:19.480 | 'cause I'm not, I don't view myself as typically anxious,

02:39:22.600 | particularly in interactions with other people

02:39:26.660 | or new people.

02:39:27.500 | Shy is not a word that has been used for me.

02:39:32.640 | But if you ask my family and they joke

02:39:35.920 | 'cause our son talks a lot,

02:39:37.200 | he's advanced verbally and they're always like,

02:39:38.760 | oh, well, let's, we know where he gets that from.

02:39:41.120 | Like, 'cause he just doesn't stop talking.

02:39:42.720 | He narrates everything he does.

02:39:44.400 | And so they always tease 'cause that's

02:39:48.480 | like I'm known for kind of talking a lot.

02:39:51.100 | But so I haven't been typically,

02:39:54.160 | I'm not, I don't consider myself a shy person.

02:39:56.200 | So for me going into a new room,

02:39:59.500 | a new group of people is,

02:40:01.400 | you know, there's always a,

02:40:02.440 | you don't really know who they are,

02:40:04.000 | how they're gonna treat you.

02:40:04.940 | But I don't have a lot of anxiety with that.

02:40:08.440 | So I don't, if that's something

02:40:10.020 | that's gonna put something off,

02:40:11.240 | I don't really know how to address that particular feeling.

02:40:15.960 | But in terms of all of the rooms I've been in,

02:40:17.920 | I have popped into jiu-jitsu gyms

02:40:20.080 | before I knew Ryan in Florida.

02:40:22.800 | Like I traveled for my jobs in Germany and Florida

02:40:25.560 | and California and places where I don't know anyone,

02:40:28.220 | they don't know me.

02:40:29.580 | And I have never once had anyone be anything

02:40:33.600 | other than kind and solicitous and helpful.

02:40:37.520 | And long before when I was a white belt and a blue belt

02:40:40.720 | and didn't know anything and didn't know anyone.

02:40:43.220 | And I just think that it's a community of people

02:40:48.140 | that it's so cool that no matter where you go in the world,

02:40:51.180 | I walked into a gym in Prague one time

02:40:54.740 | where only two people spoke English.

02:40:56.680 | And it was just--

02:40:59.120 | - Yeah, it's weird.

02:40:59.960 | - You know, instantly you're like part of a group

02:41:02.000 | and they're like, "Oh, let me tell you

02:41:02.960 | what a place to go." - So being part of a cult,

02:41:03.920 | right? - Yeah.

02:41:04.760 | - Yeah. - But it's like a positive cult.

02:41:06.400 | Like for sure--

02:41:07.680 | - That's what we would say as cultists.

02:41:09.760 | - Yeah, that's true.

02:41:11.400 | (laughing)

02:41:12.560 | That's true.

02:41:13.400 | I mean, we do need to murder everybody

02:41:14.960 | who practice Aikido.

02:41:16.240 | - I mean, yeah.

02:41:17.920 | - This cult deeply believes in.

02:41:20.520 | No, but there is a, like if you look at different kinds

02:41:22.960 | of games like chess and so on, like there's a skepticism.

02:41:27.320 | I mean, there's not a brotherhood, sisterhood feeling

02:41:29.880 | with jiu-jitsu.

02:41:30.720 | It's like you can roll into most places.

02:41:32.560 | Even like with judo, like I can see the contrast

02:41:35.480 | 'cause I've trained in judo places.

02:41:37.720 | It's more like tribal.

02:41:42.360 | Like you walk in and like, "Who is this?"

02:41:47.040 | Like there's that kind of feeling.

02:41:48.400 | With jiu-jitsu, there's less so.

02:41:50.680 | There is a little bit with like the competitors.

02:41:52.440 | There's always like the competitors feeling each other out,

02:41:55.320 | usually like the blue belts.

02:41:56.720 | But like outside of that, in terms of if you don't get the,

02:42:01.440 | if you walk in with the vibes of just loving the art

02:42:05.440 | and just wanting to have a good time, you're like welcome.

02:42:09.600 | It's really cool.

02:42:10.720 | It's really fascinating.

02:42:12.160 | - It's a really great thing, I think.

02:42:14.240 | And as a woman, I think you think you're walking

02:42:16.560 | into these rooms of these big, strong, tough guys.

02:42:20.480 | And if anything, I would say that they're almost like

02:42:24.520 | much more solicitous when a woman comes in there

02:42:27.280 | and not like they're just like hitting on you all the time.

02:42:29.960 | It's just that you walk in and everyone is like,

02:42:32.440 | "Oh, cool.

02:42:33.760 | "You wanna do this thing that I love.

02:42:35.480 | "Let me make sure you have a good experience

02:42:37.280 | "and take care of you."

02:42:38.400 | And I think that's an experience that I hope people have

02:42:41.960 | when they come into our gym and that I've always felt

02:42:44.680 | when I walked into other gyms.

02:42:45.880 | And so we try our best to make that comfortable.

02:42:49.400 | And it can be a little uncomfortable 'cause there are,

02:42:52.360 | when you walk into a male-dominated environment,

02:42:54.960 | there's conversations and topics.

02:42:57.520 | There's a different style of camaraderie and joking

02:42:59.940 | that a lot of men will do that maybe some women

02:43:03.040 | are more uncomfortable with.

02:43:04.240 | I grew up with four brothers, so I kind of maybe

02:43:06.680 | was a little more desensitized to that.

02:43:09.600 | And I worked for the Department of Defense for a while too.

02:43:12.520 | So before I-

02:43:14.440 | - So you're with the government.

02:43:15.820 | - Yeah, so I did that for a while after college.

02:43:17.720 | - I'm already skeptical.

02:43:18.920 | - Yeah.

02:43:19.760 | I left, I left.

02:43:21.720 | - Oh, you left.

02:43:22.560 | I'm not gonna ask you about UFOs then

02:43:23.920 | because you're not gonna tell me the truth.

02:43:25.440 | - No.

02:43:26.280 | (laughing)

02:43:27.100 | Fix it.

02:43:27.940 | (laughing)

02:43:29.520 | - Yeah, now you just freaked out a lot of people.

02:43:31.480 | Okay.

02:43:32.320 | (laughing)

02:43:34.040 | But yeah, by the way, where's your school?

02:43:35.800 | 'Cause people always ask like where-

02:43:37.600 | - Well, we're outside of Washington, DC

02:43:40.160 | in Northern Virginia in Falls Church.

02:43:42.320 | - You always wanna pick like, what's the best school

02:43:44.000 | if I travel to this place or if I wanna move to this place?

02:43:47.400 | So that's-

02:43:48.220 | - Well, I mean, obviously we're biased,

02:43:49.480 | but yeah, we're in the Washington, DC area.

02:43:51.960 | - The best.

02:43:53.080 | Okay, we just took a little break.

02:43:54.580 | Now we're back.

02:43:55.640 | Let me ask you one thing that a bunch of people

02:43:58.360 | are curious about.

02:43:59.520 | You're one of the innovators.

02:44:01.640 | First of all, you're one of the great innovators

02:44:03.840 | and philosophers and thinkers in jiu-jitsu, right?

02:44:07.520 | But you're also one of the innovators

02:44:09.160 | in terms of leg locks and the 50/50 position

02:44:13.400 | and just like the fact that legs have something to do

02:44:17.200 | in jiu-jitsu.

02:44:18.100 | The other popularizer, innovator in the space

02:44:24.240 | is Jon Donahuer and his whole group of guys.

02:44:26.800 | Do you have thoughts about their whole system of leg locks

02:44:30.480 | and their ideas about jiu-jitsu and so on?

02:44:34.040 | - Sure.

02:44:34.860 | I guess, obviously, Jon and the students at HENSO

02:44:38.440 | who've been able to do fantastic things competitively

02:44:40.820 | in the past number of years.

02:44:42.280 | You mentioned innovators in that kind of section of jiu-jitsu

02:44:48.400 | I would be, I'd love to bring up some guys

02:44:50.960 | like Dean Lister, of course, Masakazu Imanari.

02:44:54.240 | In fact, a lot of what was going on in 90s Japan

02:44:57.040 | like combat submission wrestling,

02:44:58.560 | there was some crazy gnarly stuff

02:45:00.020 | that it's on grainy VHS tape.

02:45:02.880 | But stuff that if people were doing now,

02:45:04.440 | they go, "Oh my God, that's brand new."

02:45:06.440 | I think these are things that have been around for a while

02:45:10.960 | in various places.

02:45:11.880 | I first learned the 50/50 position,

02:45:13.720 | just like the leg entanglement of it, from Brandon Vera,

02:45:17.080 | actually at a seminar at Lord Irvin's Martial Arts,

02:45:19.160 | I think in 2005.

02:45:20.480 | He learned it from Dean Lister

02:45:22.400 | who used it to submit Alexandre Kakareko,

02:45:24.880 | really, really tough no-gi guy at ADCC in the run

02:45:28.280 | that Dean made to the gold medal in the absolute division,

02:45:31.640 | which was a great performance at the time,

02:45:33.220 | first American to do that.

02:45:34.600 | And I actually saw a video,

02:45:38.240 | I mean, first of all, Bas Rutten actually broke,

02:45:40.160 | I think Guy Mezger's foot with a 50/50 heel hook.

02:45:43.480 | He actually grabbed his heel and his toes

02:45:46.000 | and went (imitates cracking)

02:45:46.880 | and in pancreas, it's back when they had like the man panties

02:45:49.280 | and the high boots on.

02:45:51.160 | And dude, that was gnarly.

02:45:52.360 | Bas Rutten is underappreciated.

02:45:54.520 | - He double grabbed and just--

02:45:56.920 | - Oh yeah, his leverage is leverage.

02:45:59.520 | That's like a toehold that goes the other way

02:46:01.800 | and it's like it either doesn't work or breaks in half.

02:46:04.720 | - Well, people don't often think of Bas Rutten

02:46:07.800 | as an innovator, but he is, in a way.

02:46:10.320 | Talk about Elon Musk and first principles thinking

02:46:15.640 | in terms of physics, he just feels like

02:46:18.320 | he just gets the job.

02:46:19.600 | He figures out the simplest way to get the job done

02:46:22.320 | of breaking things and establishing control

02:46:25.040 | and hurting people.

02:46:25.920 | - Remember that was back in the day,

02:46:27.240 | if you listen to Bas Rutten do any commentary

02:46:29.400 | for any of the big MMA shows or any MMA show way back when,

02:46:32.520 | anytime guys were clinching,

02:46:33.480 | he's like, "The guys roll for a knee bar."

02:46:34.680 | He was saying that way back when

02:46:36.000 | and now people are doing it all the time

02:46:37.640 | with varying degrees of success.

02:46:39.440 | It's funny, it's also tough to be,

02:46:41.920 | I think like a breakaway thinker.

02:46:43.240 | I mean, group think is a real thing and group inertia

02:46:46.160 | and it's neat to see, particularly at a time

02:46:50.400 | when maybe that type of stuff was less accepted,

02:46:53.680 | someone going, "Hey, I'm gonna run off

02:46:56.480 | "in this other direction."

02:46:57.480 | I think whoever, the inventor of electricity in my mind

02:47:01.000 | is a lot more impressive than whomever,

02:47:03.480 | not to say that the person down the line isn't impressive,

02:47:05.680 | that comes up with an interesting way to use it.

02:47:08.400 | Both are cool, but when you think about,

02:47:11.160 | just can you imagine we're sitting here,

02:47:12.600 | we're like, "Yeah, people, I'm gonna build an airplane."

02:47:14.320 | You're like, "What are you talking about?"

02:47:15.520 | - Crazy. - People don't fly.

02:47:16.760 | I'm like, "No, I'm gonna do it."

02:47:17.800 | And of course, it's not gonna be as good

02:47:19.200 | as the airplane down the line,

02:47:20.360 | the iterative things that happen later on,

02:47:22.320 | but just being able to go to dream something into existence

02:47:26.400 | that you haven't seen before and then make it happen,

02:47:29.120 | takes an unbelievable strength of character,

02:47:31.640 | almost like a force of will,

02:47:33.160 | because you're blazing a trail

02:47:36.160 | that hasn't been walked before.

02:47:37.880 | That's the BJ Penn factor

02:47:39.280 | in winning the Jiu-Jitsu World Championship,

02:47:42.080 | first non-Brazilian to do that.

02:47:43.520 | That was back in 2001.

02:47:44.960 | And then Rafael Lovato later on,

02:47:46.760 | both of those guys are so unbelievably impressive

02:47:50.000 | in my mind for the same reason,

02:47:51.800 | because they were out there winning at a time

02:47:54.600 | when that wasn't a common thing.

02:47:56.560 | Not that it's easy to win now,

02:47:57.960 | it's just there's not a psychological hurdle

02:48:00.240 | that needs to be left.

02:48:01.480 | I remember when I was early in Jiu-Jitsu,

02:48:03.320 | Americans weren't winning the World Championships

02:48:05.240 | at any belt.

02:48:06.600 | We all knew BJ Penn because BJ Penn did it,

02:48:08.400 | but it was really, really uncommon.

02:48:10.520 | Now it happens on a semi-regular basis.

02:48:12.920 | Of course, the Brazilians are still strong,

02:48:14.160 | Europeans are still strong,

02:48:15.680 | and Australians are coming on as well.

02:48:18.080 | But it's definitely kind of an interesting thing.

02:48:20.800 | So to come back to John Danaher and the HENSO team,

02:48:24.320 | obviously they're doing fantastic things.

02:48:26.240 | John's had some really, really great innovation there.

02:48:28.520 | And the systematization and the methodology

02:48:31.920 | that they're using is great,

02:48:33.920 | and it's neat to see that it's getting out there.

02:48:36.280 | I would just also, I would encourage people

02:48:39.200 | to make sure that they're catching up on their history,

02:48:42.040 | 'cause obviously John's a brilliant instructor

02:48:43.720 | and has done things for the sport that are fantastic

02:48:47.760 | that haven't been done before.

02:48:48.640 | But none of us exist in a vacuum,

02:48:50.520 | and I've learned things from everywhere else.

02:48:51.880 | So John would say the same, I'm sure.

02:48:54.000 | And Dean Lister would say the same.

02:48:56.120 | And it's just neat when you can kind of trace

02:48:58.240 | the history of all of this happening,

02:48:59.760 | because we've had, humanity's had two arms and two legs

02:49:02.120 | for some time, at least as long as I've been alive.

02:49:04.560 | - But you mentioned airplanes.

02:49:06.360 | Do you think there's something totally new

02:49:08.000 | to be invented in Jiu-Jitsu still?

02:49:09.640 | Not totally new, but like the, you know,

02:49:12.880 | flying isn't new, but airplanes nevertheless

02:49:16.240 | made that much more efficient.

02:49:17.560 | Is there like new ideas to be discovered in Jiu-Jitsu still?

02:49:22.400 | - I'd say, the reason I'd say yes

02:49:24.160 | is the same reason I would say I believe in alchemy,

02:49:26.120 | even though I don't.

02:49:27.400 | No, I'm serious.

02:49:28.240 | Like, I've got some backing for this.

02:49:29.960 | - Okay.

02:49:30.800 | - You know, I guess I talk about this

02:49:32.360 | with a buddy of mine a lot, like,

02:49:34.320 | and facilitative versus not facilitative beliefs.

02:49:38.600 | And if I don't believe something is possible

02:49:41.640 | and I do no investigation towards it,

02:49:44.000 | I'll never find something, even if it's there.

02:49:45.840 | It's almost like, it's no different than me walking up

02:49:47.880 | on a group of people and going like,

02:49:49.280 | "Oh man, look at these jerks.

02:49:50.800 | This is gonna suck."

02:49:51.920 | Versus me going, "Oh, I wonder what these guys are up to."

02:49:53.960 | I'm about to have two very different conversations,

02:49:56.020 | even though the players in the game are no different.

02:49:57.840 | My internal constitution has changed

02:49:59.560 | because of how I've decided to approach the situation.

02:50:02.840 | So although I wouldn't personally want to spend all my time

02:50:05.600 | trying to turn lead into gold,

02:50:07.080 | because I don't believe that it's likely to work,

02:50:09.360 | only a person who's willing to spend his or her life

02:50:12.080 | in that pursuit will actually get to the bottom of that.

02:50:14.340 | And also in the pursuit of that,

02:50:16.220 | they're likely to find other things.

02:50:18.280 | So I think a lot of times the idea is that humanity

02:50:20.440 | is pushed forward by, you know,

02:50:21.840 | again, it's another Orson Scott Carbon.

02:50:23.520 | It's like, you know, human beings are in this slog.

02:50:25.720 | It's, I'll paraphrase, just in this slog over time.

02:50:28.280 | And then periodically, humanity gives birth to genius,

02:50:31.200 | like someone that invents the wheel,

02:50:32.680 | invents electricity, pushes us forward, you know,

02:50:35.140 | comes up with the idea of governance that doesn't,

02:50:37.560 | you know, just start and end with the point of a sword,

02:50:40.360 | you know, and, you know, these aren't common things.

02:50:43.480 | These are unbelievable advancements that, you know,

02:50:45.920 | that I'm not just me sitting here.

02:50:47.080 | I didn't come up with them, but I just get the benefit of it.

02:50:49.180 | So I guess what I would say is a lot of times

02:50:50.920 | these ideas are called crazy, you know,

02:50:52.720 | like as we discussed on kind of offline,

02:50:54.400 | it's like, you know, Einstein was brilliant in his twenties

02:50:57.440 | and it was brilliant before that, I would suspect,

02:50:59.800 | but basically, you know,

02:51:01.200 | gets recognized later on in life.

02:51:03.080 | And of course we all thought those were great ideas.

02:51:05.220 | The man was probably roundly mocked

02:51:06.460 | for giant chunks of his life.

02:51:08.340 | And I guess, so it's neat to,

02:51:10.740 | I would say there's definitely in my mind things that,

02:51:13.200 | even if it's just combinations and new to me,

02:51:15.580 | new ways to see things,

02:51:16.780 | new ways to understand different depth of understanding,

02:51:19.280 | possibly new things, new positions, new ideas,

02:51:22.020 | because even if that's not true,

02:51:25.220 | the process of going through and acting as if it is

02:51:28.060 | and believing like that and focusing

02:51:29.700 | and trying to investigate will make any of us,

02:51:32.700 | will push us all forward.

02:51:34.140 | Whereas sitting there, you know,

02:51:35.760 | obsessing over the cult of our current knowledge,

02:51:38.140 | I think is the biggest danger

02:51:41.200 | and the biggest cause of stagnation that exists anywhere.

02:51:44.060 | - Yeah, and it starts with believing the impossible,

02:51:48.580 | which is kind of interesting.

02:51:49.740 | One of the things that's really inspiring to me

02:51:51.240 | is to see people out there, which sadly are rare,

02:51:55.160 | who kind of have a combination of two things.

02:52:00.820 | One is they have a worldview that involves,

02:52:04.500 | that includes a lot of ideas that are crazy.

02:52:07.140 | And the second part is they're exceptionally focused

02:52:10.740 | and competent in bringing that,

02:52:13.380 | whatever the ideas in that worldview to reality.

02:52:16.140 | So there's certainly a lot of people with crazy ideas.

02:52:18.540 | You know, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists.

02:52:20.140 | They have way out there beliefs about things,

02:52:23.060 | but they're not doing much to like make the,

02:52:27.420 | like build stuff grounded in that.

02:52:29.620 | Like they're not engineers or whatever.

02:52:31.540 | They're just like espousing different crazy ideas.

02:52:33.620 | But that's why you get like the Elon Musk type characters.

02:52:36.620 | And the reason I bring him up a lot

02:52:38.180 | is 'cause like there's not many others to bring up.

02:52:41.100 | It's like, there's not many examples of it through history.

02:52:44.580 | The people, I mean, the guy's convinced

02:52:47.380 | that we're going to colonize Mars.

02:52:49.700 | And basically everybody on earth thinks that's insane.

02:52:54.700 | - Everyone except the guy that's gonna do it, right?

02:52:58.340 | - Except that's gonna do it.

02:52:59.500 | And like, you can imagine like a couple of hundred years

02:53:03.540 | from now people will, I mean, first of all,

02:53:07.500 | they won't, certainly won't remember the haters.

02:53:09.900 | They won't remember all the people.

02:53:12.140 | If they do remember them, they'll remember them in a sense

02:53:15.740 | like people were silly to think

02:53:17.220 | that this isn't the obvious path forward.

02:53:20.540 | Like from a perspective, that's what Elon talks about.

02:53:24.900 | Like it's obvious they were going to expand

02:53:27.300 | throughout the universe.

02:53:28.940 | Like so-- - From his perspective.

02:53:30.660 | - From his perspective.

02:53:32.500 | But to me it is also obvious

02:53:34.460 | because like either we destroy ourselves

02:53:37.300 | or we'll expand beyond earth.

02:53:40.500 | Like there's not many, well,

02:53:45.820 | maybe it's not completely obvious.

02:53:47.420 | I guess I share that worldview.

02:53:49.340 | There's the other possibility that we humans find

02:53:52.340 | a sort of an inner peace where the forces of capitalism

02:53:56.460 | will calm down and we'll all just meditate

02:53:58.980 | and do yoga and jujitsu and like relax

02:54:00.980 | with this whole tech thing

02:54:02.540 | where we keep building new technologies.

02:54:04.140 | But it's cool to have those kinds of people

02:54:06.980 | that just believe the big, ambitious, crazy dreams

02:54:11.260 | 'cause that's where it starts.

02:54:12.460 | If you wanna build something special,

02:54:13.740 | you have to first believe that.

02:54:16.060 | - When you also have to believe strongly enough

02:54:17.620 | that you're not vulnerable and I'm speculating,

02:54:20.260 | but it's like, I can only imagine how many people

02:54:21.900 | have told Elon that what he's doing is crazy.

02:54:24.900 | So not only did he dream it up,

02:54:26.380 | he dreamed it up, went with it

02:54:27.780 | and also went with it in the face of being told

02:54:31.100 | that it's not gonna work.

02:54:32.340 | And then also stepped away from the bitterness

02:54:35.260 | 'cause he's done a series of really crazy, impressive things

02:54:38.380 | and that's only those little things that I'm aware of.

02:54:40.900 | And also staying away from the bitterness

02:54:42.500 | of every single time you did something good,

02:54:44.420 | initially all I do is talk down about you

02:54:47.140 | and then eventually I act as, of course, of course,

02:54:49.300 | I never apologize.

02:54:50.820 | And yet you don't let that dampen your spirits

02:54:53.220 | for the next innovation, which is pretty incredible

02:54:55.660 | to me to watch.

02:54:56.780 | - Yeah, it's kinda cool.

02:54:57.780 | I mean, it's contagious to spend time with the guy

02:55:01.020 | because he's not, Rogen has the same look to him,

02:55:04.620 | which is interesting about these people.

02:55:06.660 | There's like a hater shield.

02:55:12.560 | That he's like, he doesn't even like sense them,

02:55:15.980 | it feels like.

02:55:16.940 | He thinks to Elon, it's like, it's obvious.

02:55:22.900 | I mean, he keeps calling it like first principles thinking.

02:55:26.100 | Like physics says it's true, therefore it's true.

02:55:28.380 | Like he's convinced himself that like his beliefs

02:55:31.820 | are grounded in the fundamental fabric

02:55:33.940 | of the way the universe works,

02:55:35.740 | therefore the haters don't matter.

02:55:38.100 | And I mean, that's kind of like a system of thought

02:55:40.100 | he developed himself through all the difficulty,

02:55:42.580 | through all the doubt, he's able to take huge risks

02:55:45.000 | with basically putting everything he owes on the line

02:55:47.940 | multiple times throughout his life.

02:55:49.820 | Amidst all the drama, amidst all the doubts,

02:55:52.180 | amidst all like the, he's still able to make

02:55:55.420 | just clear, clear headed decisions.

02:55:58.740 | I don't know what to make of it, but it's inspiring as hell.

02:56:01.180 | - Well, I think it's something that's funny.

02:56:02.740 | I think like, I can only imagine the, you know,

02:56:05.380 | history will look back on him as a brilliant person,

02:56:07.740 | but that's not the only, there's a lot of,

02:56:09.620 | maybe not statistically speaking,

02:56:11.860 | but a lot numerically on a giant planet

02:56:13.620 | of billions of people, a lot of brilliant people.

02:56:16.520 | Well, you know, time, place, luck, fortune,

02:56:18.620 | all that other stuff, but at the same time,

02:56:20.780 | that clearly isn't the only determining thing

02:56:23.660 | in making Elon Musk, Elon Musk.

02:56:25.340 | And obviously I don't know the guy from Adam,

02:56:27.620 | but it's an interesting thing that it's not just his

02:56:30.620 | intellect, his belief system, his structure,

02:56:33.300 | how he's viewing the world.

02:56:34.420 | Like that's, did he reason his way to that?

02:56:37.580 | Did he not?

02:56:38.400 | What other factors came in?

02:56:39.380 | I'm really curious about that because I guess coming,

02:56:41.980 | it's, again, I feel really strongly about

02:56:45.380 | people's belief structure and this,

02:56:48.140 | how they view the world being more important

02:56:50.500 | than the engine behind it.

02:56:52.500 | You know, it makes someone resilient or not.

02:56:54.900 | It makes someone positive or not,

02:56:56.780 | because you could have 10,000,

02:56:57.860 | I think about this for competitive stuff.

02:56:59.700 | You could have 10,000 things going properly

02:57:01.340 | and one thing going improperly.

02:57:02.500 | If you focus on the improper,

02:57:03.700 | you'll probably fix it at a certain point,

02:57:05.380 | which is good, facilitative for development in the longterm.

02:57:08.380 | But if you had to go and try to perform a task

02:57:10.940 | in the next five minutes,

02:57:12.380 | and you're focusing on the negative,

02:57:13.580 | your confidence and your belief in the positive outcome

02:57:17.140 | of the future is likely to be damaged.

02:57:19.060 | Whereas you could have 25 things going wrong,

02:57:21.180 | but you go, man, I sure am happy to be alive.

02:57:22.860 | How fortunate I am.

02:57:23.700 | This is great.

02:57:24.520 | I have problems to solve.

02:57:25.580 | This is awesome.

02:57:26.700 | Versus I list the problems and I start bitching about them.

02:57:29.700 | Both of them are technically accurate,

02:57:31.660 | but it's, I guess, different lenses.

02:57:32.940 | And I think that's a really neat thing to see,

02:57:35.240 | you know, someone exemplifying that for us.

02:57:37.820 | - So maybe to look at the fighting world,

02:57:42.680 | there's a million questions I can ask here.

02:57:46.060 | Like one, you mentioned B.J. Penn.

02:57:48.420 | You, first of all, you're undefeated in the UFC.

02:57:51.180 | And one of the fights you've had is against B.J. Penn,

02:57:54.340 | which is kind of an incredible fight.

02:57:57.460 | You won performance of the night.

02:57:59.660 | What did it feel like to face B.J. Penn

02:58:04.300 | and to beat him definitively as you did?

02:58:07.380 | Like what's that whole experience like?

02:58:09.340 | - I'll be honest, I didn't know if I was going

02:58:11.300 | to ever be able to fight again

02:58:12.960 | after beating Gray Maynard in 2016.

02:58:15.740 | And I've had a couple of periods of those.

02:58:17.740 | I was about to join the army actually,

02:58:19.660 | and when I was 30, before the UFC,

02:58:23.340 | before Jen sent me over to Ultimate Fighter,

02:58:25.460 | I didn't want to go.

02:58:26.300 | 'Cause I was like, one, they're never going to pick me.

02:58:27.700 | Two, I'd be terrible for TV.

02:58:29.060 | Three, I'll probably say something,

02:58:30.100 | and I'm going to get burned to death in the streets.

02:58:32.780 | You know, I'm like, this isn't a great idea.

02:58:34.940 | And then she said, "Well, go out there, see what happens.

02:58:37.340 | "Do it anyway.

02:58:38.180 | "You'll regret it if you didn't."

02:58:39.780 | And then I ended up doing Ultimate Fighter.

02:58:41.380 | And then, so I fought three times on the show,

02:58:43.580 | and then I fought for the finale.

02:58:47.780 | So that's four times in like five or six months,

02:58:50.380 | which was great.

02:58:51.340 | And then it took me a year to get another opponent.

02:58:54.260 | And that was Gray Maynard.

02:58:55.580 | And then Gray was obviously a very tough guy.

02:58:57.860 | Managed to get a good outcome there.

02:58:59.100 | Then it took two years to fight BJ Penn.

02:59:02.740 | And that was, you know, obviously I'm training

02:59:04.300 | all the time, every single day, and that never stops.

02:59:06.940 | But that was, I'll be honest, like pretty deeply frustrating

02:59:09.340 | 'cause, you know, as a human being, as an athlete,

02:59:11.580 | you know, I think as an athlete, you die twice.

02:59:13.340 | Like you have an athletic peak or area,

02:59:15.860 | and then you go on with the rest of your life.

02:59:17.740 | But it is a microcosm for the rest of your life.

02:59:19.740 | It's like you're seeing the sand tick away

02:59:21.780 | in the hourglass or drop away.

02:59:23.700 | And you're going, "Man, these are the years

02:59:26.300 | "between 31, 32, 33.

02:59:27.860 | "I'll be at my best at this time,

02:59:29.380 | "my absolute best physically.

02:59:30.780 | "Now, not technically, I'm a lot better now

02:59:32.800 | "than I was before in our plan."

02:59:34.220 | But at a certain point, you will,

02:59:36.020 | unless you're Bernard Hopkins,

02:59:37.020 | you will reach diminishing returns.

02:59:38.900 | And I guess that-- - The long wait,

02:59:40.940 | you can feel the clock ticking.

02:59:42.660 | It's frustrating. - Yeah.

02:59:44.020 | - Why did it take two years for BJ?

02:59:46.700 | That's the question people ask a lot.

02:59:49.940 | It's like, "Why does nobody want to fight, Ryan?"

02:59:52.380 | - I don't know.

02:59:53.220 | They probably think they'll get infected

02:59:54.540 | by whatever this is, but I don't blame 'em.

02:59:57.260 | But I wouldn't want to-- - I mean, you're a really

02:59:58.780 | tough opponent is the bottom line.

03:00:00.900 | - I'll say that I'm different.

03:00:02.060 | Maybe they perceive that the threat

03:00:05.020 | is greater than the reward.

03:00:06.300 | I'm hoping that now that we're ranked number 12,

03:00:08.420 | you know, in the UFC rankings, that that will change.

03:00:11.880 | And I know that if we're one more win

03:00:13.820 | and then we're in the top 10,

03:00:15.420 | that now you're there.

03:00:17.780 | But what I've consistently found

03:00:19.500 | is that like randoms wanna fight,

03:00:20.900 | and I'm like, "Go away.

03:00:22.100 | I didn't come here for you."

03:00:23.580 | 'Cause if I wanted to just fight anybody,

03:00:24.920 | I could go down to a Waffle House

03:00:26.260 | and yell until like DMX shows up and we can fight,

03:00:28.860 | 'cause he'll be at the Waffle House too.

03:00:29.860 | Who am I kidding?

03:00:30.700 | I really wanna hang out with DMX.

03:00:31.660 | But it's like, you wanna, when I had the opportunity--

03:00:34.420 | - Brian Hall and DMX at Waffle House.

03:00:35.460 | - Oh my God, that was so cool.

03:00:37.260 | I would never-- - Sounds like a Netflix show

03:00:38.740 | or something. - I would never fight DMX.

03:00:39.900 | We'd be on the same team.

03:00:40.740 | - No. - But anyway,

03:00:42.620 | I guess I accepted fights against,

03:00:47.020 | I got asked about Lamas, I said yes.

03:00:49.340 | I got asked about Dennis Bermudez, I said yes.

03:00:52.380 | Like long periods of time, and at that time,

03:00:55.220 | in between 2016 and 2018,

03:00:57.900 | I was struggling to have opponents who would sign up.

03:01:01.900 | And so I haven't turned down fights.

03:01:04.500 | I've just said, "Hey, keep the,

03:01:06.340 | I don't care about fighting the randoms."

03:01:08.020 | And it's just-- - And you have

03:01:09.100 | a successful school.

03:01:10.220 | You're like, you're running,

03:01:12.700 | you're a martial artist, broadly speaking.

03:01:15.540 | So it doesn't make sense to take fights

03:01:18.140 | that aren't like-- - Right.

03:01:19.580 | - That fit a certain kind of trajectory for your career.

03:01:22.580 | - And that's when BJ apparently said,

03:01:24.020 | "Well, BJ's looking for an opponent."

03:01:25.540 | I was like, "I'm your guy."

03:01:27.020 | And I think that BJ accepted that fight

03:01:29.820 | because I'm another jujitsu guy.

03:01:31.420 | I don't think he perceived that I was much

03:01:33.820 | of a threat on the feet.

03:01:35.780 | And I was able to, it was neat to get it

03:01:39.900 | to compete against someone who's one of my heroes,

03:01:43.220 | one of the people I looked up to in MMA

03:01:44.900 | for the longest time.

03:01:45.900 | - Were you intimidated by that?

03:01:47.180 | - No, no, I love competing.

03:01:48.980 | I don't really get nervous or scared before fights.

03:01:51.860 | I'm not afraid to get hurt.

03:01:52.820 | I'm not afraid to win.

03:01:53.740 | I'm not afraid to lose.

03:01:55.100 | I'm just excited for the,

03:01:57.020 | I feel thankful for the opportunity to compete

03:01:59.020 | and the opportunity to play when it matters.

03:02:01.380 | But that's the only time I'm interested

03:02:04.740 | in playing anymore is when it matters,

03:02:06.500 | when the opposition is, I know that,

03:02:08.940 | it's funny 'cause people pick on a lot of,

03:02:11.660 | some opponents, particularly after the fact.

03:02:13.820 | Like if you get a good outcome,

03:02:15.500 | well then, of course, let's beat that guy.

03:02:17.100 | That guy wasn't that good.

03:02:17.940 | I'm like, well, I wasn't, that's after the fact,

03:02:19.900 | I get to say that.

03:02:20.940 | And also as the person in the ring,

03:02:22.860 | BJ Penn has hurt a lot of people in mixed martial arts cage.

03:02:26.980 | And I could actually absolutely have been on that list.

03:02:30.500 | So it was neat to get to compete against someone

03:02:32.740 | that I really respect,

03:02:33.660 | someone that I looked up to for a long time,

03:02:35.380 | someone who has a great skillset.

03:02:37.660 | And also I went up in weight to fight him

03:02:39.420 | at his weight class.

03:02:40.260 | He didn't have to come down to mine,

03:02:41.340 | which is where he'd take.

03:02:42.180 | Which was lightweight?

03:02:43.020 | It was lightweight, yeah.

03:02:44.100 | Generally a featherweight.

03:02:44.940 | I walk around at like 158 pounds.

03:02:46.900 | So.

03:02:47.740 | What's lightweight and featherweight?

03:02:49.740 | Lightweight is 155 with a day before weigh-in

03:02:52.180 | and featherweight is 145 with a day before weigh-in.

03:02:54.340 | So I'm a little bit more properly sized for featherweight.

03:02:57.380 | But anyway, so I didn't feel like,

03:03:01.220 | obviously he was giving up a couple of years of age,

03:03:03.620 | but I was giving up size and all this other stuff.

03:03:06.420 | And it was, I was just excited to have the opportunity

03:03:08.940 | to step in against someone like BJ.

03:03:11.140 | And we managed to get out of there with a good outcome

03:03:14.660 | without getting too banged up.

03:03:16.420 | But just, it was cool 'cause we tied up on the fence

03:03:19.260 | and just even the second,

03:03:21.260 | is when you're rolling with somebody and you touch

03:03:23.340 | and you can feel what they're doing,

03:03:24.220 | you go, "Oh man, this guy's really good."

03:03:26.060 | You can feel the calm,

03:03:27.060 | you can feel the small minor adjustments

03:03:28.740 | that they're making,

03:03:29.580 | the subtle things that they're doing.

03:03:30.860 | And that was one of those things

03:03:32.380 | that was really neat and gratifying

03:03:33.500 | because you never know,

03:03:35.380 | sometimes people that you've heard of

03:03:36.820 | are a little bit less technically proficient

03:03:38.500 | than you thought.

03:03:39.340 | And other times you'll meet some guy that you're training,

03:03:40.740 | like, "Who the hell is this guy?

03:03:41.740 | "How have I not heard of this person?"

03:03:43.460 | And BJ was exactly, as a jujitsu guy,

03:03:46.620 | what I would have thought.

03:03:47.620 | And another thing, that's another thing that bugged me

03:03:50.060 | about how people reacted after the fight is,

03:03:53.020 | basically going, "Oh, BJ screwed up this,

03:03:54.820 | "screwed up that."

03:03:55.660 | And I'm like, "All right, yeah, tell us."

03:03:57.740 | That's so interesting.

03:03:58.580 | That's sad.

03:04:00.380 | That was one of the, to me, I mean, as a fan of both,

03:04:04.860 | that was a beautiful moment,

03:04:06.100 | is a kind of passing of a torch, in a sense,

03:04:10.860 | of exceptional performance.

03:04:13.220 | Like another one that stands out to me,

03:04:15.980 | maybe you can comment, is I don't understand,

03:04:20.180 | well, maybe I do, why Conor McGregor

03:04:21.980 | gets as much hate as he does.

03:04:23.540 | He probably revels in it.

03:04:26.540 | But I think he doesn't get enough credit for Jose Aldo,

03:04:34.260 | for basically knocking him out

03:04:38.940 | in the first few seconds of a fight.

03:04:43.940 | I mean, Jose is one of the greatest fighters ever.

03:04:48.180 | - That's true.

03:04:49.220 | - Maybe some people could even put him in the top 10.

03:04:51.900 | - No question.

03:04:52.740 | - And I don't understand why it doesn't get as much,

03:04:57.740 | like Conor McGregor doesn't get as much credit

03:05:02.900 | as I think he deserves for that, and for Eddie Alvarez,

03:05:06.620 | and all the fights, for some reason,

03:05:08.780 | whenever Conor McGregor beats somebody,

03:05:12.620 | well, they were not that good then.

03:05:16.060 | Like, it means like they were, something was off.

03:05:19.260 | - Right, that's convenient, isn't it?

03:05:20.860 | - Yeah, it's quite strange to me.

03:05:23.500 | But I mean, what are your thoughts on Conor McGregor?

03:05:26.500 | Maybe one way to ask that, I'm Russian,

03:05:30.980 | so I'm obviously also a Khabib fan,

03:05:33.260 | but I'm also a Conor fan.

03:05:34.620 | It seems like there's not many of us

03:05:36.020 | who are like fans of both.

03:05:37.180 | - Right.

03:05:38.300 | - What are your thoughts?

03:05:39.140 | - You and Artem Lobov.

03:05:40.260 | (Lex laughing)

03:05:41.100 | - Yeah, right?

03:05:41.920 | - Exactly.

03:05:42.760 | - The two of us, which also is a good fight.

03:05:43.900 | - Tough dude.

03:05:46.220 | - Yeah, really, really tough dude.

03:05:48.020 | - He speaks like five languages, really interesting cat.

03:05:49.780 | - Also, oh, wow, I didn't know that side of it.

03:05:52.180 | There's a brain there.

03:05:53.260 | Well, on the Khabib versus Conor,

03:05:56.180 | what do you make of their first fight?

03:05:57.940 | What do you, do you agree with me

03:05:59.260 | that they should fight again?

03:06:01.060 | 'Cause I think it'd be awesome

03:06:02.620 | if they fought again in Moscow.

03:06:04.900 | And do you agree with me,

03:06:07.100 | I'm just gonna say things that piss people off,

03:06:09.880 | but I believe, is that Conor actually

03:06:11.940 | has a chance to beat Khabib.

03:06:13.860 | - One, Conor absolutely has a chance to beat Khabib.

03:06:16.260 | Conor has a chance to beat anyone

03:06:17.500 | that he steps into that ring with,

03:06:18.580 | and not just like a mathematical chance.

03:06:20.100 | You're like, oh, one of the billion,

03:06:21.180 | but like, you know, he absolutely,

03:06:23.820 | it's funny 'cause I won't pretend to know Conor really well,

03:06:26.100 | but I first met Conor in 2010

03:06:27.740 | when I was teaching a seminar

03:06:28.900 | in at Straight Blast Gym Ireland in Dublin.

03:06:31.620 | And that's actually where I first met

03:06:33.740 | all of the coaches that ended up being on Conor's team.

03:06:36.660 | You know, John Kavanaugh, Owen Roddy, Gunnar Nielsen,

03:06:40.740 | you know, so for, I actually,

03:06:42.180 | I enjoyed being on Ultimate Fighter

03:06:43.740 | and being on Uriah Faber's team

03:06:45.700 | and getting to train with all the guys there.

03:06:47.060 | But at the same time, the people that I was actually,

03:06:49.060 | I knew better were actually the European side,

03:06:50.980 | all of Conor's coaches.

03:06:53.060 | And that was a neat thing

03:06:55.880 | because I got to, I met Conor.

03:06:57.620 | I didn't know who Conor,

03:06:58.940 | Conor wasn't Conor at that point.

03:07:00.140 | - Yeah, that was before his UFC debut.

03:07:01.860 | - Oh yeah, well before, yeah.

03:07:03.060 | I think he got in like 2014, maybe something like that.

03:07:05.900 | Yeah, and anyway, but he was doing well in Cage Warriors,

03:07:09.020 | winning the titles there, I think prior to that.

03:07:11.100 | You know, I remember going, seeing him on the show

03:07:13.420 | and also then getting to see him train

03:07:15.900 | 'cause I competed, I was initially slated

03:07:19.020 | to fight David Tamer for the Ultimate Fighter finale

03:07:21.340 | before getting put in to fight Artem

03:07:22.940 | for the title for the show.

03:07:24.660 | So I went over to Ireland to train for a couple of days

03:07:26.800 | and basically it was neat to watch him, watch him work.

03:07:29.560 | I mean, man is focused and trains a lot

03:07:32.200 | and is very, very smart and very, very hardworking.

03:07:34.740 | And I think a lot of times people get stuck in this,

03:07:38.400 | and they almost wanna believe that this was lucky

03:07:43.400 | or that this person, you know,

03:07:45.400 | they're not working that hard, they're just out there.

03:07:47.040 | They got there with their mouth

03:07:48.880 | and that's just not the case.

03:07:50.760 | And, you know, I don't know what it's like.

03:07:52.640 | You know, obviously Conor's very well off right now

03:07:54.520 | and I don't know how hard, how serious he's training,

03:07:56.320 | what he's doing, I can't speak to any of that.

03:07:57.880 | But there's no question that he has skills to be dangerous.

03:08:01.280 | And one of the funny things, obviously,

03:08:02.680 | the Khabib fight went Khabib's way.

03:08:03.880 | Khabib was a great fighter and also has the chance

03:08:06.080 | to beat anyone in that ring at any given time.

03:08:08.720 | But there was, Conor, you know, it's one,

03:08:13.720 | he can put anybody away.

03:08:16.240 | And as you mentioned, I think that he doesn't get the credit

03:08:18.640 | for the Eddie Alvarez fight.

03:08:19.600 | He doesn't get the credit for the Jose Aldo fight

03:08:20.960 | 'cause it was almost so much of a letdown.

03:08:22.260 | I remember that happened the same weekend

03:08:23.580 | at the Ultimate Fighter finale.

03:08:25.520 | And you're like, oh, wait, what?

03:08:27.280 | (laughing)

03:08:28.920 | Yeah.

03:08:29.760 | It almost doesn't feel like a fight happened.

03:08:30.840 | But we mentioned Miyamoto Musashi.

03:08:32.480 | I mean, Musashi was famous for the way he poked

03:08:34.880 | and prodded at people with what he was doing,

03:08:36.620 | whether overtly or not.

03:08:37.640 | It's like, oh, we're supposed to fight to the death

03:08:39.520 | and, you know, at 3 p.m. tomorrow, great.

03:08:41.840 | (sighing)

03:08:43.800 | 4 p.m. rolls around, I'm just not there.

03:08:45.680 | Five, I mean, you remember all the antics and nonsense

03:08:48.200 | that Conor was pulling prior to that.

03:08:49.520 | Like, speaking personally, that's not,

03:08:51.320 | it's not something I would feel comfortable doing,

03:08:52.880 | but it's like, everyone's different.

03:08:54.260 | And the effect that it had on Jose was,

03:08:56.460 | I mean, beyond evident.

03:08:57.500 | When was the last time Jose started the fight

03:08:59.820 | with leaping left hand, leaping right hand?

03:09:02.260 | You're like, wait, what?

03:09:03.500 | And then he was obviously, you know,

03:09:06.140 | living rent-free in Jose's head at that point.

03:09:08.740 | And that was a combination of psychological, you know,

03:09:12.060 | ability and wherewithal and then physical.

03:09:14.820 | And it reminded me of the way Muhammad Ali

03:09:16.500 | would bother people and whatnot.

03:09:18.020 | And the fact that he's a polarizing figure,

03:09:21.880 | I think makes some people not give him his due.

03:09:24.220 | And then at the same time,

03:09:25.340 | sometimes certain fans maybe go overboard.

03:09:28.260 | But they remember the knee that Ben Askren

03:09:30.940 | got knocked out with by Masvidal.

03:09:32.620 | I mean, that was an amazing, unbelievable thing,

03:09:34.460 | but three inches to the right, three inches to the left,

03:09:36.980 | I guess, whichever side his head wasn't.

03:09:38.540 | Now, you know, could have been square,

03:09:40.420 | but, and that fight starts with Ben Askren

03:09:43.380 | on top of you in the first five seconds.

03:09:45.860 | Well, Conor ran him through a knee just like that

03:09:48.460 | at Khabib, and Khabib got right around it.

03:09:50.860 | That could have easily gone the other way.

03:09:52.060 | Can you imagine what would have happened

03:09:53.400 | if after coming back from boxing,

03:09:56.160 | after coming back from the Mayweather fight,

03:09:58.160 | Conor rocks Khabib.

03:09:59.480 | In the first 10 seconds it's over,

03:10:01.000 | and you're like, he would, it would have been intolerable.

03:10:05.520 | But basically, like, you know.

03:10:08.000 | But see, here's the thing.

03:10:08.840 | Let me actually push back slightly.

03:10:10.880 | I mean, to the fans, correct me if I'm wrong,

03:10:15.440 | but Conor seems to, 'cause I've competed a lot,

03:10:19.240 | and like, there's a tension, there's a negativity sometimes

03:10:21.980 | depending on the opponent,

03:10:23.500 | and there's a respect afterwards that happens.

03:10:26.860 | Like, when you understand that there's a deep, like,

03:10:29.700 | respect and almost like a love for each other.

03:10:32.500 | Like, I've always seen that in Conor.

03:10:34.780 | Like, all the trash talk afterwards,

03:10:37.660 | there's a, it's a subtle thing.

03:10:39.620 | You can't always see it, but there's a respect.

03:10:42.180 | - I agree.

03:10:43.020 | - And like, I almost, on the Khabib side,

03:10:47.580 | I almost feel like Khabib really took it personally.

03:10:51.460 | He didn't, he lost the respect for Conor.

03:10:54.380 | I thought the whole time Conor had the respect.

03:10:56.600 | So, what I wanted to say is like,

03:10:58.380 | if Conor won that fight, like rock Khabib,

03:11:01.080 | I could see, like, I wouldn't see trash talking.

03:11:04.660 | I could see, like, trash talking stop right there.

03:11:06.980 | - I think so too, but at the same time,

03:11:08.660 | I'm sure you recall, like, Conor crossed

03:11:10.780 | in some pretty personal territory,

03:11:12.900 | both religiously and also familiarly with Khabib.

03:11:15.740 | And it's, you know, I mean, I think it's the sort of thing

03:11:18.540 | that, I don't know, it's an interesting,

03:11:20.740 | that's one of the reasons.

03:11:21.580 | - It depends, like, you have to know the difference.

03:11:23.300 | So, obviously, I know the Khabib, the Dagestani people,

03:11:28.300 | they don't--

03:11:29.420 | - Play around like that.

03:11:30.260 | - They don't play around like that.

03:11:32.060 | You know, I mean, they take offense to basically,

03:11:34.500 | I mean, you don't do that.

03:11:36.180 | So, like, Conor didn't, maybe he did it on purpose,

03:11:41.180 | or maybe he wasn't even just aware of--

03:11:43.500 | - Totally fair.

03:11:44.340 | - Of--

03:11:45.180 | - It was cultural differences, you know?

03:11:46.020 | - Of the box he opened.

03:11:47.740 | Like, you can talk to Floyd Mayweather,

03:11:50.860 | you can go anywhere with him.

03:11:52.620 | You can say the most offensive things,

03:11:54.460 | but with Khabib--

03:11:57.660 | - There's hard lines.

03:11:58.500 | - Yeah, hard lines.

03:11:59.620 | But you, I mean, a lot of people ask,

03:12:02.540 | I know you're a featherweight,

03:12:03.500 | but if you were to face,

03:12:08.500 | it feels like Khabib was one of the hardest puzzles to solve

03:12:11.500 | in all of mixed martial arts.

03:12:14.060 | If you were to face Khabib,

03:12:15.660 | do you think, how would you go about solving that puzzle?

03:12:19.940 | Like, almost, the question is almost

03:12:21.500 | from a jiu-jitsu perspective, too.

03:12:23.640 | What do you do with a guy that's exceptionally good

03:12:26.620 | at controlling position, especially on top,

03:12:29.300 | very good at wrestling, taking down,

03:12:31.180 | and controlling position?

03:12:32.740 | Like, let's say, so forget maybe striking.

03:12:36.580 | On the ground, how do you solve that guy?

03:12:40.300 | Like, what do you do with your guard

03:12:42.380 | if you get taken down?

03:12:43.340 | Or do you create an entire system

03:12:45.220 | of not getting taken down or escaping?

03:12:47.140 | It's like, what ideas do you have for that?

03:12:49.500 | - Well, I guess I would say, in my mind,

03:12:50.980 | fighting is a game of trading energy.

03:12:52.940 | Kind of, there's two things.

03:12:56.700 | There's damage and there's energy.

03:12:58.140 | So, like, when I say energy, I mean like tired, not tired,

03:13:01.580 | how much gas you've got.

03:13:03.260 | And then damage counts, obviously, as well.

03:13:06.260 | You could be feeling, I could be feeling great,

03:13:08.060 | and then you get to kick me in the head

03:13:09.100 | hard, really hard, three times.

03:13:10.420 | It doesn't matter that I could get up and run a mile.

03:13:12.080 | I can't get up.

03:13:13.060 | So, anyway, I think what Khabib does so well

03:13:17.700 | is he makes the fight look like

03:13:19.220 | a Khabib and a Magomedov fight.

03:13:20.940 | He does a great job of avoiding damage

03:13:23.180 | on the feet, for the most part,

03:13:24.580 | and really sucking the life out of people

03:13:26.900 | with how suffocating and oppressive his control is.

03:13:30.660 | His chain wrestling is as good as anyone

03:13:32.380 | we've ever seen in the UFC.

03:13:33.700 | It's fantastic.

03:13:35.540 | But that poses a really serious threat for people

03:13:38.700 | that need to maintain a certain amount of space

03:13:41.300 | and try to hurt him on the feet,

03:13:42.380 | because unless they're able to inflict

03:13:44.380 | an adequate amount of damage,

03:13:46.180 | they're gonna, each time, let's say, for instance,

03:13:48.300 | let's say him taking them down

03:13:49.260 | as a foregone conclusion at some point.

03:13:51.980 | If every single time Khabib takes you down,

03:13:53.900 | you get right back up, it's not that big a deal,

03:13:56.500 | because it's actually more, we've all experienced this.

03:13:58.580 | Let's say you and I are rolling,

03:13:59.700 | you tap me 15 times in one round.

03:14:01.380 | Who's more tired?

03:14:02.240 | Probably you are.

03:14:03.980 | Yeah.

03:14:04.800 | You whoop my ass so badly

03:14:05.640 | that it's like you're the only one working.

03:14:07.380 | But--

03:14:08.820 | So, if you're comfortable with the up and down of it,

03:14:11.740 | like being taken down.

03:14:13.500 | If you don't get hurt badly or tired on the bottom,

03:14:18.340 | you have a chance.

03:14:19.860 | But that doesn't involve just cracking him on the feet

03:14:22.300 | before he gets a hold of you.

03:14:23.820 | That's a lot.

03:14:24.860 | That's a lot to ask.

03:14:25.700 | That's a lot to ask.

03:14:26.520 | That's difficult to do.

03:14:27.440 | It seemed actually like Conor,

03:14:29.820 | it seemed like it when he was being kind of taken down

03:14:32.620 | or the takedown attempts against Khabib.

03:14:35.300 | He seemed to be somewhat relaxed through the whole thing.

03:14:38.060 | I thought he was doing well, actually.

03:14:39.180 | I think that, particularly for the first round,

03:14:40.740 | I thought he did a very good job.

03:14:42.260 | It's just one of those things that I think like Khabib being,

03:14:46.260 | the fights taking place in Khabib's world in large part.

03:14:49.500 | And I mean, set aside that one giant,

03:14:51.660 | what is it, right hand that Khabib hit Conor with.

03:14:54.140 | By the way, Conor reacted like an absolute champion.

03:14:56.060 | He got crushed by that overhand and then dropped

03:14:59.460 | and his eyes went right back on Khabib.

03:15:01.380 | It was immediate positive, great response.

03:15:03.540 | So even though that was, I think,

03:15:05.140 | that was a bit of a surprising thing,

03:15:06.420 | Conor reacted really, really well.

03:15:07.740 | But if you're gonna be on bottom with Khabib

03:15:10.220 | for four rounds, that's gonna be tough.

03:15:11.820 | And also Conor's a way better grappler

03:15:13.500 | than people like to give him credit for,

03:15:15.540 | but he's not the type of grappler that can do,

03:15:17.940 | that can, that's too tall of an order.

03:15:20.340 | But there are grapplers that could do that,

03:15:22.300 | or at least would have a much, much better shot

03:15:24.100 | at being able to weather that type of a storm.

03:15:26.860 | Do you see yourself being able to be relaxed

03:15:28.740 | through that kind of storm?

03:15:29.780 | Yes.

03:15:30.620 | Well, I guess.

03:15:33.180 | (laughing)

03:15:35.500 | Remember, being savagely beaten is very relaxing.

03:15:39.060 | The timing of that answer was like, okay.

03:15:42.540 | That's a dumb question.

03:15:44.940 | No.

03:15:45.780 | That's ultimately the goal of jujitsu

03:15:49.020 | is to be relaxed through the fire.

03:15:51.780 | For sure, and remember, like every UFC fighter,

03:15:53.660 | I win all hypothetical matchups.

03:15:55.340 | Yeah, for sure.

03:15:56.180 | (laughing)

03:15:58.260 | That's true.

03:15:59.100 | Since I'm one to ask ridiculous questions,

03:16:03.820 | and we've been talking about sci-fi

03:16:05.980 | and all that kind of stuff,

03:16:07.060 | let me ask the kind of big question

03:16:08.780 | that everybody disagrees about, certainly with me,

03:16:11.780 | is who are the top five greatest MMA fighters of all time?

03:16:15.860 | Oh, man.

03:16:16.700 | And why is Fedor number one?

03:16:19.340 | Okay, well, first off, Fedor is number one.

03:16:21.380 | Oh, really?

03:16:22.220 | Oh, yeah.

03:16:23.060 | I agree right there with you.

03:16:23.880 | Really?

03:16:24.720 | Oh, yeah.

03:16:25.560 | Talk about people that just get completely underappreciated.

03:16:27.300 | Even though he's never been in the,

03:16:28.700 | like he's never succeeded in the UFC?

03:16:31.140 | It's not his fault it came along after him.

03:16:32.780 | At the time that Fedor was at his height,

03:16:35.420 | the UFC was not where it was at for heavyweight fighting.

03:16:38.620 | I mean, not that there weren't good heavyweights there,

03:16:40.140 | but Fedor was unbelievable.

03:16:42.740 | You know, I mean, you remember,

03:16:43.700 | I mean, Minotauro Noguera, I was a massive fan of him.

03:16:47.340 | I still remember watching, what is it, Pride 2004,

03:16:50.340 | when Noguera fought Crow Cop

03:16:52.100 | and got blasted with that left kick

03:16:54.120 | and dropped with like seconds left in the first round.

03:16:56.580 | Pride was great 'cause it had a 10-minute first round

03:16:58.140 | and that five-minute second,

03:16:59.300 | which again, materially alters the fight big time.

03:17:02.220 | And you know, just the texture of the fight,

03:17:03.540 | 'cause it's totally, it's borderline a different sport,

03:17:05.420 | you know, than getting a five, a pause and a five.

03:17:08.500 | But anyway, similar sports,

03:17:10.940 | like one of those swimming things

03:17:11.780 | where they have nine gold medals

03:17:12.740 | for different types of swimming, right?

03:17:14.140 | But still swimming, but anyway.

03:17:15.700 | - Well, yeah, they would disagree.

03:17:19.260 | - Yeah, I don't mean, I'm not trying to--

03:17:20.100 | - They specialize in the, but it's totally true.

03:17:22.580 | 10 minutes is different than five minutes.

03:17:24.220 | - Sorry, I'll take, don't drown me, swimmers.

03:17:27.220 | I don't swim very well.

03:17:28.300 | It's easy for me to downplay it.

03:17:30.140 | But anyway, yeah, and then--

03:17:33.180 | - So better than Jon Jones, like the modern era.

03:17:36.380 | - Well, I mean, I guess it's tough to compare across eras.

03:17:39.780 | It would be like going and saying like,

03:17:41.580 | oh man, how would such and such great grappler from today

03:17:45.460 | fare against someone from 1995?

03:17:47.980 | I'm like, well, probably pretty well for them,

03:17:50.420 | depending upon who they are, what's going on.

03:17:53.740 | You know, there's some people that would,

03:17:54.820 | their skill sets might transition across eras,

03:17:56.760 | but a lot of times not, but that's not fair.

03:17:58.940 | We get the, they'll be like comparing Spartans

03:18:01.140 | to modern day, you know, like army guys.

03:18:04.220 | You're like, well, who's gonna win?

03:18:05.140 | I'm like, well, did modern day army guys

03:18:06.500 | get modern day weapons?

03:18:07.460 | Well, yeah, but who's the toughest,

03:18:09.820 | ruggedest group of people at the very least?

03:18:11.820 | So I guess it's tough to say, but at least in my mind,

03:18:13.700 | the people that I think about for great fighters,

03:18:15.860 | their quality of opposition, their level of like lasting,

03:18:20.860 | like success, their level of lasting innovation,

03:18:23.420 | like the courage that they have to demonstrate.

03:18:25.460 | Because again, it's like being a big fish

03:18:27.020 | in a small pond takes no courage.

03:18:28.460 | Doesn't mean that there's nothing there,

03:18:30.140 | but it just requires something a little bit different.

03:18:32.460 | So Kazushi Sakuraba is one of my guys too.

03:18:35.100 | BJ Penn also, I mean, BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida.

03:18:39.020 | That's insane.

03:18:40.260 | You know, it's, that was a time, it was a different sport.

03:18:42.780 | It was a different time in the sport where, you know,

03:18:44.460 | they were, some guys were bouncing around

03:18:46.260 | doing different things, but let's,

03:18:48.020 | so I guess the Gracie family, it's, I mean,

03:18:50.660 | they never had an, like obviously hoist was there,

03:18:53.980 | but they never, and that was a definitely

03:18:55.500 | a different sport, weight classes being open,

03:18:57.380 | things like that.

03:18:58.220 | Yeah, but you have to say that hoist is up there.

03:18:59.820 | Oh, no question.

03:19:00.660 | One of the greatest ever.

03:19:01.500 | I think so too.

03:19:02.380 | And again, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you,

03:19:04.980 | if it weren't for him.

03:19:06.540 | So the Gracie family as a whole, but I mean,

03:19:08.980 | who's the better, I mean, I think hoist would tell you

03:19:12.220 | himself probably that Hickson would have handled business

03:19:14.460 | back then, but they didn't put him in.

03:19:16.140 | So again, he's the greatest fighter, the greatest fighter,

03:19:18.260 | the greatest fighter that we saw do his business.

03:19:19.900 | So hoist up there for sure.

03:19:21.340 | What about, so this is like,

03:19:23.500 | nobody seems to agree with me on this,

03:19:25.140 | but like this connects to soccer again and Messi.

03:19:28.140 | It seems that people value like how long

03:19:31.860 | you've been a champion, how many,

03:19:34.620 | like defenses of the championship that you've had

03:19:38.180 | successfully, to me, I highly value

03:19:41.780 | singular moments of genius.

03:19:43.660 | So like, I don't, like if you look at Conor McGregor,

03:19:47.780 | he hasn't, I guess, held, been a champion

03:19:50.740 | very long, very much.

03:19:51.700 | Well, he didn't defend either title, right?

03:19:53.020 | He didn't defend any other, either of the titles,

03:19:56.220 | but like, if you took, and same with Messi,

03:19:59.020 | if you look at Lionel Messi,

03:20:01.820 | there's just moments of brilliance,

03:20:03.980 | unlike any other in history for both Conor and Messi.

03:20:07.540 | And people don't seem to give credits,

03:20:08.780 | like, well, how many World Cups have you won?

03:20:10.980 | But to me, like, why is it about this arbitrary

03:20:13.740 | World Cup thing or championship thing?

03:20:15.780 | - I think it's easier for people

03:20:16.660 | to wrap their head around, right?

03:20:17.500 | It's like the NFL combine.

03:20:18.980 | When was, I mean, - Numbers.

03:20:20.340 | - Yeah, numbers, it's something,

03:20:21.500 | well, again, if I go and if I pick Tom Brady

03:20:23.540 | in the first round, you know, and it works out,

03:20:26.740 | they call me a genius.

03:20:27.740 | If I pick Tom Brady in the first round

03:20:29.740 | after his combine and it doesn't work out,

03:20:31.620 | I get fired and I'm never hired again,

03:20:32.980 | I have to work somewhere else.

03:20:34.580 | But it's like, I'm insulating myself from criticism,

03:20:37.540 | I think, almost, if I go by the numbers.

03:20:39.420 | Well, he had more bench presses.

03:20:40.660 | It's like, how many times have the guys

03:20:42.820 | that are like the super studs in the NFL combine

03:20:46.500 | ever been on the greatest players in the NFL history,

03:20:49.220 | in NFL history?

03:20:50.060 | Like, zero or close to zero?

03:20:51.900 | And even if there's some,

03:20:53.660 | it's certainly not a one-to-one correlation.

03:20:55.900 | So it's so funny, though.

03:20:57.040 | I think it's just like, how many,

03:20:58.140 | how long, how many days did he hold the title?

03:20:59.940 | Oh, your title reign was X times longer.

03:21:02.540 | That means nothing.

03:21:03.380 | So if we wanna define greatest fighter ever,

03:21:05.020 | like you said, I think individual moments of like,

03:21:07.260 | that was transcendent, that was different,

03:21:09.200 | that was something else.

03:21:10.420 | Because people can win or lose

03:21:11.540 | for any number of different reasons.

03:21:12.820 | And that's an interesting thing.

03:21:14.620 | Again, I don't blame Argentina

03:21:16.500 | not winning the World Cup on Messi.

03:21:18.700 | You know, that's not fair.

03:21:20.640 | You know, how many times has, I mean,

03:21:22.660 | I remember when Trent Dilfer was the quarterback

03:21:25.800 | for the Baltimore Ravens.

03:21:27.980 | And they had such a strong defense.

03:21:29.340 | I'm not trying to pick on Trent Dilfer,

03:21:30.320 | but it's like, they had such a strong defense

03:21:32.560 | that they were able to make it.

03:21:33.680 | That was the Ray Lewis, you know,

03:21:35.480 | Chris McAllister era, you know,

03:21:37.360 | and they won the Super Bowl.

03:21:39.880 | I don't think anyone is going to say that,

03:21:42.960 | you know, Trent Dilfer's a better quarterback than,

03:21:45.880 | you know, or put him in the same category as Dan Marino.

03:21:48.500 | But he got the W, he's got the Super Ring.

03:21:51.680 | How many times, let's use March Madness,

03:21:53.440 | or Super Bowl, I love it.

03:21:54.280 | Like, that guy always makes the finals,

03:21:55.840 | but he just never gets it done.

03:21:57.720 | So let me get this straight.

03:21:58.620 | Getting to the finals nine times doesn't count

03:22:00.680 | because you didn't win the end game.

03:22:02.440 | I'm not saying it wouldn't be better,

03:22:03.900 | but that guy won the game once.

03:22:05.100 | He got over the hump.

03:22:06.040 | Well, how many other times was he in the finals?

03:22:07.360 | Zero?

03:22:08.200 | You're like, all right.

03:22:09.720 | - It's interesting what we, yeah,

03:22:11.360 | that we were obsessed with these numbers.

03:22:13.440 | - Well, 'cause we can't assess their method, right?

03:22:16.760 | I think most of the time,

03:22:17.800 | most of us can't assess the method of anything.

03:22:19.760 | I mean, it's like, oh, look at that guy do X, Y swimming.

03:22:21.840 | I'm like, how do I know Michael Phelps is great?

03:22:23.720 | I don't know, he was faster?

03:22:25.120 | I can't look at his technique and say anything

03:22:27.000 | other than, well, that's way better than anything

03:22:28.980 | I know how to do, but I can't say the difference

03:22:30.900 | between him and the next guy.

03:22:32.780 | So I guess that's, I wonder if it's like,

03:22:34.620 | I need a concrete identifier.

03:22:36.100 | And a lot of times people don't like saying, I don't know.

03:22:38.300 | - And most people won't put like a Ronda Rousey

03:22:40.460 | in the top even 20 or 50 of,

03:22:43.020 | but like she changed more than almost anybody else.

03:22:47.660 | She changed the martial arts history.

03:22:52.100 | I don't know if that even,

03:22:53.380 | I don't think I'm exaggerating that.

03:22:55.300 | She made it okay for women to be fighters

03:23:00.300 | and like changed the way we see,

03:23:05.600 | like she's one of the great feminists of our time.

03:23:08.100 | (laughing)

03:23:08.940 | - In her own way, yeah.

03:23:10.460 | - In a weird kind of way that like, I don't know,

03:23:13.720 | maybe I'm just a Ronda Rousey fan, but yeah.

03:23:17.700 | But she's not in the conversation

03:23:19.060 | 'cause then you start converting into numbers.

03:23:20.860 | Well, how many did she actually win?

03:23:22.140 | - Is she among the greatest fighters

03:23:23.540 | or did she do the greatest things?

03:23:25.180 | I mean, I don't, I think it's something that,

03:23:27.500 | I mean, obviously Ronda is a great judoka

03:23:29.460 | who was competing in MMA at a time

03:23:31.300 | when a lot of the girls like,

03:23:32.580 | where did you get your skills?

03:23:33.740 | In the Olympics.

03:23:34.580 | Oh, where'd you get yours?

03:23:35.400 | High school.

03:23:36.240 | You're like, yeah, you're gonna,

03:23:37.060 | Olympic girls gonna beat you up.

03:23:38.100 | But I guess that that doesn't diminish her.

03:23:41.060 | Just that accomplishment is what it is.

03:23:43.020 | I don't have to, I don't,

03:23:44.260 | Fedor is not diminished by the fact that he would,

03:23:47.700 | like if he were to fight Stephen Miochis right now,

03:23:49.820 | it probably wouldn't go great or that Jon Jones exists.

03:23:52.580 | I don't now have to like knock Fedor's accomplishments down

03:23:55.220 | or say, oh, because BJ Penn or someone,

03:23:57.180 | so let's say has a mixed record at this point

03:23:59.760 | that somehow invalidates the things

03:24:01.300 | that they've done before.

03:24:02.740 | I guess it kind of brings us back

03:24:04.060 | to a lot of the other people we've talked about.

03:24:05.620 | The fact that the brilliant people

03:24:07.380 | throughout history that we love

03:24:08.380 | or some of the monsters throughout history

03:24:09.620 | that we rightly revile in a lot of cases

03:24:12.500 | were complicated people and their legacy

03:24:14.320 | is more than just one thing.

03:24:15.460 | And someone doing something amazing doesn't,

03:24:17.740 | doesn't mean they didn't do anything bad.

03:24:18.980 | And someone doing terrible things doesn't,

03:24:21.180 | doesn't mean that, doesn't invalidate the positives

03:24:23.980 | that they did.

03:24:24.800 | But I guess we're fighting the urge

03:24:26.380 | to put people in one category and same with ourselves.

03:24:29.660 | I think that's why people get depressed.

03:24:31.140 | Oh, I'm good right now.

03:24:32.820 | Oh, I'm bad right now.

03:24:33.980 | Versus hey, we're all a work in progress

03:24:35.580 | and we're trying to do X number of things

03:24:37.360 | and legacy is a tough thing to figure out anyway.

03:24:39.700 | And it's all speculative.

03:24:41.060 | - Last time or no, on Reddit, you said that,

03:24:44.980 | last time too, that you don't experience much fear

03:24:48.620 | before fights.

03:24:50.780 | I'd like to ask you a couple of Mike Tyson things

03:24:52.940 | if it's okay.

03:24:53.780 | It's just interesting to me, maybe I'm just weird.

03:24:55.420 | So there's a, I don't know if you've seen this clip

03:24:58.260 | of Tyson talking about how he feels leading up to a fight,

03:25:03.260 | that he's kind of overtaken with fear,

03:25:07.420 | but as he gets closer and closer and closer to the ring,

03:25:10.180 | his confidence grows.

03:25:12.420 | Have you seen the clip?

03:25:15.420 | - I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen it in a while.

03:25:17.020 | - Here, let me play it for you.

03:25:19.420 | George St. Pierre said something similar to me one time.

03:25:22.820 | - While I'm in the dressing room,

03:25:24.500 | five minutes before I come out, my gloves are laced up.

03:25:28.020 | I'm breaking my gloves down.

03:25:29.620 | I'm pushing the leather of the back of my leg

03:25:31.380 | in the middle of the gloves,

03:25:32.380 | so my knuckle could pierce through the leather,

03:25:34.140 | feel my knuckle piercing against the tight leather gloves

03:25:36.820 | on the Everlast boxing gloves.

03:25:38.940 | When I come out, I have supreme confidence.

03:25:40.700 | I'm scared to death.

03:25:42.380 | I'm totally afraid.

03:25:43.500 | I'm afraid of everything.

03:25:44.500 | I'm afraid of losing.

03:25:45.540 | I'm afraid of being humiliated,

03:25:47.180 | but I'm just totally confident.

03:25:48.420 | The closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get.

03:25:51.140 | The closer, the more confidence I get.

03:25:52.820 | The closer, the more confidence I get.

03:25:54.860 | All during my training, I've been afraid of this man.

03:25:57.140 | I thought this man might be capable of beating me.

03:25:59.420 | I've dreamed of him beating me,

03:26:01.580 | but I always stayed afraid of him.

03:26:04.060 | But the closer I get to the ring, I'm more confident.

03:26:06.380 | Once I'm in the ring, I'm a god.

03:26:08.180 | No one can beat me.

03:26:09.300 | - I'm a god.

03:26:10.500 | I mean, first of all, he's cognizant of both his demons

03:26:14.980 | and whatever the hell ideas he has about violence.

03:26:17.620 | That's so interesting.

03:26:18.660 | Is there something about the tension that he's describing

03:26:23.660 | about being confident and scared that resonates with you?

03:26:26.900 | Or do you hold to this idea

03:26:29.820 | that you've kind of spoken about before

03:26:31.740 | that you're really not afraid?

03:26:33.380 | - No, I can appreciate what he's saying.

03:26:36.500 | I think that I can speak to feeling concerned about,

03:26:40.980 | let's say, for instance, if you feel a certain way,

03:26:43.560 | I think people are a lot more like computers

03:26:45.180 | than we like to admit.

03:26:48.100 | And just because a lot of times I can't parse

03:26:50.380 | what's going on and why,

03:26:52.260 | doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

03:26:54.620 | - I see.

03:26:55.460 | - And I think that at least in the times

03:26:57.660 | of like if I'm concerned about a situation

03:26:59.740 | or about a person or about something happening

03:27:02.060 | prior to the fight, or I'm like, there's a reason.

03:27:05.140 | There was a reason.

03:27:05.980 | I don't have to push that down and bury it.

03:27:07.460 | There's a reason.

03:27:08.300 | Like why?

03:27:09.120 | What have I not thought about?

03:27:09.960 | What have I not done?

03:27:10.780 | What am I missing?

03:27:11.980 | Why am I feeling this way?

03:27:13.140 | As you mentioned for yourself prior,

03:27:15.580 | like you'd be like, why am I feeling like this?

03:27:17.300 | I don't do this very well in certain aspects of my life

03:27:19.300 | if I'm not that I mentioned it or now that I think about it.

03:27:21.700 | But when it comes to competing,

03:27:23.140 | I think I do an all right job

03:27:24.340 | and I'm trying to learn to be better.

03:27:25.420 | And it's going like, well, why do I,

03:27:28.060 | if I feel this way, there's a reason.

03:27:30.060 | Okay, am I thinking about this the wrong way?

03:27:31.860 | Have I not adequately prepared for something?

03:27:33.620 | I have to address it.

03:27:35.420 | And then maybe I'll be up for four hours that night,

03:27:37.980 | like extra hours thinking, what have I not addressed?

03:27:39.900 | Watching sparring, watching this, watching that.

03:27:42.460 | And then when I am thinking about things more accurately

03:27:47.460 | or when I've addressed what that concern was,

03:27:50.720 | I feel any of that concern kind of dissipate.

03:27:53.580 | And I guess if I honestly thought that,

03:27:57.460 | I guess when it comes to,

03:27:58.780 | I know I'm gonna die at a certain point, obviously,

03:28:00.700 | I'm gonna get hurt.

03:28:01.660 | I'm gonna, pain happens,

03:28:03.540 | but the pain of loss would be nothing compared to the,

03:28:07.100 | or the pain of injury would be nothing compared

03:28:08.540 | to the pain of running away.

03:28:12.180 | And so I guess if I think about where's my value,

03:28:16.060 | it's like, I feel like I'm a winner

03:28:18.660 | every single time I step into that ring

03:28:20.260 | and fight with everything that I have.

03:28:21.580 | I can't promise that I'll win my next fight.

03:28:23.700 | I know that I have the skills and the tools

03:28:25.380 | to beat anyone in grappling

03:28:27.020 | or in mixed martial arts at this point.

03:28:28.820 | It's just, I know that for certain,

03:28:32.260 | I've trained with enough people,

03:28:33.340 | I've competed with enough people,

03:28:34.180 | I know where I stand,

03:28:35.940 | but I also know that I'm not perfect.

03:28:37.500 | And also the better fighter,

03:28:38.980 | even if I perceive that I was that thing,

03:28:42.020 | doesn't win on the night.

03:28:43.420 | The man who fights better wins on the night.

03:28:46.640 | And if I give credence in my mind

03:28:49.140 | to only the person that's one has value

03:28:52.620 | versus going, what's your process?

03:28:54.180 | What's your path through this?

03:28:55.980 | How are you going about this?

03:28:57.020 | How are you thinking about this?

03:28:58.040 | How are you behaving?

03:28:59.600 | Then if I can focus on the process,

03:29:02.580 | then I will respect my opponent

03:29:04.980 | and I will respect myself

03:29:05.980 | and I'll respect anyone that behaves

03:29:09.060 | with a certain level of consistency to that.

03:29:12.220 | And they could win.

03:29:13.420 | There's plenty of winners in history

03:29:14.980 | that are shitbags

03:29:16.060 | and there's plenty of losers that are not.

03:29:18.200 | But winning doesn't make you a bad or good person

03:29:20.980 | and losing doesn't make you good by default either

03:29:23.340 | or bad by default.

03:29:24.340 | So, and I think that that can be the truth socially,

03:29:26.700 | that can be the truth athletically and academically.

03:29:29.980 | So I guess-

03:29:31.460 | - Is there a primal fear though,

03:29:33.020 | like a primal fear of getting hurt?

03:29:37.700 | The running away and not facing the threat

03:29:42.700 | long-term is the bigger pain

03:29:46.420 | than any pain you can experience in the fight.

03:29:48.720 | That's pretty powerful.

03:29:51.180 | But what about the violence of,

03:29:52.620 | I mean, you don't have that on your face,

03:29:54.020 | but like, I don't know if you've also seen Tyson talk about,

03:29:57.860 | he was on "Rogan" recently

03:29:59.020 | and he was talking about,

03:30:00.380 | he was trying to psychoanalyze himself

03:30:04.380 | about why he enjoys violence so much.

03:30:08.820 | I mean, he called it orgasmic.

03:30:12.460 | I don't know, have you seen that clip?

03:30:13.980 | - I haven't.

03:30:14.820 | - Okay, we're playing it 'cause I can,

03:30:17.420 | I need to, 'cause Trump also retweeted it,

03:30:19.620 | which is hilarious.

03:30:20.560 | I don't know how to contextualize

03:30:22.700 | that our president retweeted the clip of Tyson saying-

03:30:27.700 | - Maybe he's just doing it like,

03:30:30.500 | they're not gonna, it's like,

03:30:31.340 | I'm gonna throw him a curve ball.

03:30:32.340 | No one's gonna have any idea what that is.

03:30:33.780 | - But yeah, he did no explanation, just, here you go.

03:30:36.300 | - There you go.

03:30:37.780 | Well, I think that's kind of like what you're describing.

03:30:39.540 | It's like, if I give you an answer,

03:30:40.740 | it has to be a good one.

03:30:41.700 | Better to just let your imagination run.

03:30:43.340 | - Exactly.

03:30:44.220 | Yeah, he's like the Kubrick of our time.

03:30:46.820 | (laughing)

03:30:48.700 | - Know what's really interesting?

03:30:50.920 | That sometimes,

03:30:52.160 | period, this is not real,

03:30:57.260 | but sometimes I struggle with the fact

03:30:58.900 | of why is there a possibility I can really hurt somebody?

03:31:02.060 | Like you don't wanna hurt them.

03:31:03.660 | What do you mean, but you struggle with the possibility

03:31:08.620 | that you could hurt them?

03:31:10.620 | - That is sometimes, it's orgasmic sometimes.

03:31:15.620 | Yeah.

03:31:16.980 | - Like some fights, like particularly like Tyrell Biggs

03:31:21.140 | or someone that you had problems with,

03:31:23.160 | someone that you-

03:31:24.000 | - Joe's not getting it.

03:31:24.840 | - You had animosity towards,

03:31:26.880 | so when you finally get your hands on them.

03:31:29.140 | - Hey, what does it mean when fighting gets you erect?

03:31:34.140 | What does that mean?

03:31:37.580 | - It's a good question.

03:31:38.740 | It means you're getting excited.

03:31:41.500 | - Yeah.

03:31:42.820 | - So that's going through your mind right now?

03:31:45.500 | - Well, that's how I get when I was a kid.

03:31:47.420 | And sometimes I get the twinkle.

03:31:50.260 | - The twinkle?

03:31:51.100 | - Yeah.

03:31:51.940 | - Well, that's what I'm saying.

03:31:52.780 | It's like you reached a state as a human being,

03:31:55.660 | as a champion, as a ferocious fighter,

03:31:58.420 | you reached a state of ability and of accomplishment

03:32:02.660 | that very few humans will ever touch and feel.

03:32:06.180 | That's why I'm asking you, when you're running,

03:32:08.740 | when you're hitting the bag, when that heart's beating again

03:32:11.260 | and you know who you are, you're Mike motherfucking Tyson.

03:32:15.020 | So when you're doing all this shit again,

03:32:16.220 | you're still Mike Tyson.

03:32:17.660 | Those thoughts have got to be burning inside you again.

03:32:20.780 | It's got to be pretty wild.

03:32:22.140 | - I don't know.

03:32:26.180 | It's wild, but I believe it's rightfully so to be that way.

03:32:31.180 | And I just know how to, I don't say I'm mastered,

03:32:35.060 | but I just know how to deal with it.

03:32:36.580 | I don't let it overwhelm me.

03:32:38.540 | - I mean, he goes on to try to, they don't ever,

03:32:41.100 | like Joe doesn't bite.

03:32:45.100 | Well, the interesting thing about that conversation

03:32:48.020 | is Mike was trying to figure himself out.

03:32:51.220 | - Yeah.

03:32:52.060 | - Like he's trying on the spot.

03:32:53.300 | Like, why do I feel this way?

03:32:55.820 | To me it was like, to me it's so real and honest

03:33:03.980 | to feel like pleasure from hurting somebody.

03:33:08.980 | Like that, you rarely hear that.

03:33:12.680 | In this society, it's like, you rarely like talk about like,

03:33:18.700 | you feel pleasure from winning.

03:33:22.700 | You feel pleasure from like the relief of overcoming

03:33:27.700 | like all the stress you had to go through.

03:33:30.860 | Pleasure from just like the specifics of the fight,

03:33:35.260 | the techniques he used,

03:33:36.460 | the maybe overcoming being down a couple of rounds.

03:33:39.980 | But like, how often do you hear somebody say,

03:33:42.620 | I just enjoyed, he's not even saying

03:33:45.300 | because I hate the opponent.

03:33:46.620 | He's saying like, I enjoyed purely the violence of it.

03:33:52.060 | It's crazy.

03:33:52.900 | I mean, I don't know, it's honest.

03:33:54.540 | It made me ask like,

03:33:57.220 | I wonder how many of us are cognizant of that.

03:34:00.540 | - I'd say Mike is uncommonly, seemingly honest.

03:34:05.540 | I think athletes make a full-time job out of lying.

03:34:08.580 | You know, I think people make a full-time job out of lying.

03:34:10.420 | - To themselves perhaps too.

03:34:11.380 | - That's fair.

03:34:12.220 | I mean, you tell yourself or you tell others

03:34:15.020 | what you feel you need to,

03:34:16.060 | or maybe whether you even know what you feel you need to,

03:34:18.900 | but why should he not?

03:34:21.180 | I mean, again, did he run up and just hit somebody

03:34:24.300 | that didn't sign up for this?

03:34:26.980 | No, they signed up to be there.

03:34:28.580 | - Well, that's the interesting thing about Dyson

03:34:31.500 | is there's that weird, like non-standard behavior.

03:34:36.500 | I mean, like your fighting style is non-standard.

03:34:40.180 | He's non-standard to another degree of like,

03:34:43.220 | who else has that?

03:34:45.100 | In jiu-jitsu, Paul Ares has this kind of weirdness,

03:34:50.820 | like what's in there?

03:34:54.940 | Like there's a fear that I think most opponents would have,

03:34:59.940 | because it's like, it's no longer about like,

03:35:03.140 | it takes you out of the realm of it's game.

03:35:06.340 | It takes us back to the thing we were talking about

03:35:08.660 | like before is it strips away that like several layers

03:35:12.860 | of Ryan Hall, the podcast guest,

03:35:16.700 | Ryan Hall, the jiu-jitsu instructor,

03:35:18.220 | Ryan Hall, the jiu-jitsu competitor.

03:35:19.940 | It keeps going down to a point where like Ryan Hall,

03:35:22.700 | the murderer of all things that get in his way

03:35:25.420 | that lies underneath all of it seemingly.

03:35:28.860 | Like if we're, like in this society, we put all that aside,

03:35:32.180 | but it makes you wonder,

03:35:33.340 | like now society's being tested in many ways.

03:35:36.260 | It makes you wonder like what's underneath there.

03:35:39.700 | - Well, do we want the answer to that?

03:35:41.740 | 'Cause I guess it's, what is it?

03:35:42.980 | You've seen "Pulp Fiction,"

03:35:44.300 | the best character in the movie

03:35:45.780 | and in the best scene in the movie.

03:35:47.100 | It's like if my questions,

03:35:48.740 | if you're, what do you call it?

03:35:49.580 | If my answer is scary,

03:35:50.400 | you should cease asking scary questions.

03:35:52.700 | And I guess you wonder, I mean, all of us,

03:35:55.700 | that's something that I think it's funny.

03:35:57.140 | We go, oh, that's not okay.

03:35:58.260 | I mean, versus maybe not appropriate for situation X, Y, or Z

03:36:03.260 | but what should make any of us think?

03:36:06.100 | I mean, humanity is a different place now.

03:36:07.860 | And I mean, I'm not saying anything crazy out there,

03:36:09.580 | but humanity is a different place now

03:36:10.780 | than we were 5,000 years ago

03:36:12.820 | where all of us are descended from people

03:36:15.360 | who have killed things with their teeth and fingernails.

03:36:18.600 | In order to be where we are.

03:36:20.260 | And whether it was an animal

03:36:22.780 | or it was in conflict with another person.

03:36:24.660 | I mean, think about the chances of dying by violence now

03:36:27.540 | are so, so slim, at least in most countries,

03:36:29.940 | in most places, like shockingly small, thankfully.

03:36:32.660 | But there was a period of time,

03:36:34.340 | like the most period of time where dying by violence

03:36:36.900 | was mostly how it went down.

03:36:38.660 | And I guess what would be facilitative?

03:36:41.900 | What would allow you to win back to end this game?

03:36:44.740 | What allows you, if you can't do that,

03:36:47.940 | you are forever subject to people who can.

03:36:51.280 | And that's a real thing.

03:36:54.160 | And we're fortunate to find ourselves in a situation

03:36:57.020 | where we don't, where other things matter.

03:36:59.300 | But that is a funny thing periodically where people,

03:37:01.360 | you'll see people like kind of drawing at each other,

03:37:03.320 | like in videos or out in the world

03:37:05.160 | that clearly neither of them expect this to get serious.

03:37:07.600 | Like, I'm just gonna yell at you,

03:37:08.440 | you're gonna yell at me.

03:37:09.260 | And it's like this weird LARPing thing

03:37:10.460 | where we're both gonna go on our own separate way.

03:37:12.580 | All it takes is one person to be like,

03:37:13.920 | well, I wasn't kidding.

03:37:15.520 | And it's like, oh, you'll go to jail.

03:37:16.720 | I'm like, oh, I know.

03:37:18.520 | You're gonna go to the morgue.

03:37:19.680 | And it's, but that can happen like that.

03:37:22.460 | Like society, I mean, obviously,

03:37:23.800 | anyway, you could jump across the table,

03:37:25.080 | stab me in the eye.

03:37:26.300 | I mean, I'd hope if you don't,

03:37:27.740 | and there will be consequences if you do,

03:37:29.400 | but not from me, from the rest of society

03:37:32.920 | will potentially get you at a certain point.

03:37:35.160 | But you can decide to not play by the rules

03:37:37.400 | anytime you want.

03:37:38.680 | - It's fascinating that, yeah, that's,

03:37:40.600 | we've created rules based on which we all behave,

03:37:43.200 | but underneath there, you know,

03:37:45.600 | there's things that doesn't,

03:37:48.040 | there's motivations and forces

03:37:49.880 | that don't play by the rules.

03:37:51.120 | - Oh, for sure. - And it's still there.

03:37:52.080 | Nature as metal is under the surface.

03:37:54.840 | - Seriously, and again, I pull out my phone

03:37:56.700 | and I'm basically saying like, hey,

03:37:58.560 | I'm gonna, you're gonna get caught.

03:38:00.320 | But really I'm further antagonizing you,

03:38:02.560 | rightly or wrongly, you know what I mean?

03:38:03.840 | Like, and that's an interesting thing.

03:38:05.880 | And I feel like just people need to remember,

03:38:07.760 | any of us need to remember,

03:38:09.140 | just for any reason,

03:38:10.740 | just that's one step away at all times.

03:38:14.560 | Do you ever, I've had people say to me before,

03:38:16.360 | like, oh, I don't feel safe.

03:38:17.440 | I'm like, you're not safe.

03:38:18.720 | I'll kill you before you get out of this room.

03:38:20.300 | Nothing you can do to stop that, nothing.

03:38:22.320 | I mean, but don't worry, you can do the same to me,

03:38:24.880 | which means I'm like, oh, oh, thank goodness.

03:38:26.280 | Can you imagine like how many guns

03:38:27.680 | are there are in this country?

03:38:29.480 | Like, I mean, everywhere.

03:38:31.360 | I mean, seriously, everywhere.

03:38:32.580 | But that's a heartening thought, not the other way,

03:38:34.040 | 'cause people usually freak out and go,

03:38:35.440 | oh my God, gun violence, gun violence.

03:38:36.880 | Gun violence is like really not a serious issue

03:38:39.080 | in the United States compared to what it could be,

03:38:41.620 | because it means that, I mean,

03:38:43.080 | with the amount of guns and the amount of bullets

03:38:45.800 | that are out there that are in circulation,

03:38:48.240 | can you imagine if like one in every thousand

03:38:50.800 | was used in anger each day?

03:38:52.640 | I mean, this would be a terrifying place to live.

03:38:54.840 | You couldn't go anywhere.

03:38:55.740 | So I mean, although you could say,

03:38:57.080 | hey, this is more than we'd like, or X, Y, Z,

03:38:59.360 | it actually means that people are much more reasonable

03:39:01.400 | and sane than we're saying,

03:39:03.240 | than or than sometimes I might argue.

03:39:06.200 | So I guess what I mean is like, oh man,

03:39:07.440 | I walked to 7-Eleven and I didn't get stabbed.

03:39:10.000 | I'm like, oh, well, that's good,

03:39:10.920 | because not because I protected myself with my karate,

03:39:13.840 | it's basically no one decided to run over and stab me

03:39:16.400 | because I wasn't protecting myself.

03:39:18.080 | It's, they stopped.

03:39:19.700 | So I guess we're all fortunate to live in a society

03:39:22.440 | that like you said, nature being metal,

03:39:24.440 | doesn't become that big of an issue all the time.

03:39:26.200 | But it is funny when you get people in the ring

03:39:27.760 | and you go, hey, let's peel back from Mr. Tyson,

03:39:31.240 | many layers of that and say, hey, now it's okay.

03:39:34.520 | - And it's cool that, I mean, that's what society's doing.

03:39:37.400 | So I've lived in Harvard Square for a while

03:39:40.160 | and we add extra layers of what safe means.

03:39:44.400 | Like now there's a discourse about safe spaces,

03:39:47.840 | about like ideas being violence or like, yeah.

03:39:52.840 | But ideas or minor slights

03:39:57.040 | against your personality being violence.

03:39:59.500 | But that's all like extra layers

03:40:01.940 | around the nature is metal thing that it's cool.

03:40:05.420 | That's what progress is,

03:40:06.760 | but we can't forget that like underneath it,

03:40:09.800 | it's still the thing that will murder

03:40:13.680 | at the drop of in any, at any moment if aroused.

03:40:18.680 | - One thing that I find funny though,

03:40:20.880 | or ironic maybe about the words of violence,

03:40:24.960 | offense is violence thing is that of course,

03:40:27.500 | that if that the belief in that then justifies my violence.

03:40:32.320 | Like my, and whether maybe not physical violence,

03:40:34.920 | but my response to my aggressive response to things.

03:40:38.880 | And I guess like, which again,

03:40:40.280 | begets a further aggressive response

03:40:42.640 | and like a kind of a tit for tat sort of situation

03:40:46.400 | or it goes to like, well, there's 10 of me

03:40:48.400 | and there's one of you, so we'll get you

03:40:49.800 | and you can't do anything about it.

03:40:51.360 | But that's not morality.

03:40:52.840 | That's just saying that's might makes right.

03:40:55.240 | So I guess, again, you can understand why people do it

03:40:57.240 | and there are certain, there is a progress aspect to it.

03:41:00.060 | But again, I guess without proper examination,

03:41:03.000 | I'm effectively with my 10 friends,

03:41:05.840 | and the force of the law, Mike Tyson-ing people.

03:41:08.720 | But not admitting to myself what I'm doing.

03:41:10.800 | And at least Mike Tyson, again, is honest.

03:41:13.840 | - Are you afraid of death?

03:41:16.400 | - I mean, it's easy for me to say no,

03:41:18.760 | as I sit here probably not about to die, but.

03:41:21.200 | - Is this like the UFC question,

03:41:22.660 | can you defeat any opponent?

03:41:24.200 | - Exactly, the answer is of course, yes.

03:41:26.640 | And I don't have, they're not around,

03:41:28.120 | they're not here, are they?

03:41:29.000 | Yeah, exactly.

03:41:30.280 | But- - I mean, are you,

03:41:31.720 | do you ponder your own mortality?

03:41:33.460 | Maybe another context to that is you mentioned

03:41:36.400 | two deaths for martial artists.

03:41:39.120 | - I think that's actually why, honestly,

03:41:40.840 | even though at a relatively young age,

03:41:42.600 | I think mortality is something that I'm aware of,

03:41:45.240 | maybe more than the average person.

03:41:46.400 | I think probably most athletes can speak to this,

03:41:48.360 | anyone that's had, I've managed to slide out

03:41:51.640 | of a couple near-death experiences personally,

03:41:54.160 | mostly river-related, because I'm an idiot.

03:41:57.700 | But I regret nothing.

03:41:59.480 | But yeah, but thank God we're here.

03:42:02.200 | But yeah, it is an interesting, seeing the end,

03:42:05.800 | and seeing going, well, what's gonna happen.

03:42:10.760 | I guess, I think it comes back to kind of

03:42:13.280 | what we were discussing about belief structure

03:42:14.840 | and belief system.

03:42:16.080 | I think a lot of times, if I recognize that

03:42:18.800 | no matter what I do, it's all gonna end one day,

03:42:22.240 | then you go, well, why were we here?

03:42:23.680 | What would I do?

03:42:24.640 | Am I gonna make it to 40?

03:42:26.320 | I have no idea.

03:42:27.280 | I'd like to hope so.

03:42:28.760 | I had no idea that I was gonna make it

03:42:30.180 | to the age that I am now.

03:42:31.760 | Am I gonna make it to 80?

03:42:33.700 | How much of that is in my control?

03:42:35.460 | Much of it is not.

03:42:37.600 | I mean, it's so funny.

03:42:38.760 | It's an interesting, back to the belief structure,

03:42:40.720 | again, locus of internal and external locus of control,

03:42:44.360 | what's facilitative versus what's true.

03:42:47.360 | And I think accepting personal responsibility

03:42:49.720 | for more than is in my control is probably a positive.

03:42:52.840 | But at the same time, recognizing that

03:42:55.720 | much is not in my control.

03:42:57.880 | I was fortunate enough to be born in the United States,

03:43:00.540 | fortunate enough to not knock on wood,

03:43:03.920 | have a serious disease that I'm not aware of right now.

03:43:07.400 | I didn't do any of that.

03:43:08.360 | I just showed up.

03:43:09.840 | That was really fortunate.

03:43:11.040 | And I guess that doesn't diminish the fact

03:43:13.800 | that I've tried to make decent choices,

03:43:16.620 | but it works in concert with it.

03:43:18.460 | And I guess when you go, is death what I want right now?

03:43:23.460 | No, no, I should think not.

03:43:26.320 | And again, it's easier for me to be relatively calm

03:43:28.360 | about it as I'm not staring it in the face.

03:43:30.320 | But what I would care a lot more about is how you live.

03:43:35.320 | That's what's in my control.

03:43:37.020 | And I can't control if as I walk out of this building,

03:43:39.660 | a helicopter falls on me.

03:43:41.380 | Worrying about that, I can't control.

03:43:42.780 | Maybe I have cancer now and I don't know it.

03:43:44.940 | And I really hope not.

03:43:46.380 | But--

03:43:47.480 | - There's something about meditating on the fact

03:43:49.380 | that it could end today.

03:43:51.200 | Outside of your control, they can clarify your thinking

03:43:54.540 | about the fact that life is amazing.

03:43:58.180 | Like just kind of--

03:43:59.020 | - Some of it.

03:43:59.860 | - Yeah, helping you enjoy this moment.

03:44:01.460 | - Even if life was horrible, let's say for instance,

03:44:03.660 | it was, you live at one of those times or places,

03:44:06.440 | and those places still exist in this world today,

03:44:08.620 | that life is brutal and metal and whatever all,

03:44:12.340 | and short and painful, would you still want it?

03:44:15.860 | And again, as I'm sitting here not on fire physically,

03:44:19.540 | it's easy to say yes, but I would, I'm confident,

03:44:21.660 | I still, I'll plant my feet and say yes.

03:44:24.020 | Any life is amazing and beautiful and a gift,

03:44:27.380 | an unbelievable gift.

03:44:29.620 | But that none of us have earned, for the record.

03:44:31.780 | I hate the word earned.

03:44:32.740 | A lot of times earned, yeah, you earn,

03:44:33.980 | but it's like, there's a lot of good fortune in earning.

03:44:36.940 | And that's back to, do I want justice or do I want grace?

03:44:40.860 | And I guess we're all fortunate to be where we are

03:44:43.420 | no matter where we are.

03:44:44.340 | And hopefully it should give us some sense of perspective,

03:44:47.180 | some sense of compassion for other people,

03:44:48.940 | but also, like you said, a sense of peace.

03:44:51.460 | If it all ended right now, would I be happy

03:44:54.500 | with life to this point?

03:44:56.260 | I'm like, of course.

03:44:57.300 | Would you like to live a little longer?

03:44:58.900 | Yeah, I would try to do more and try to live rightly

03:45:01.980 | to the best that I know how, which over time

03:45:04.060 | will hopefully continue to evolve in a positive direction.

03:45:07.340 | But if the answer to that is no, I guess that's always,

03:45:12.340 | that's a sign that what I'm doing

03:45:15.060 | is not what I'm meant to be doing.

03:45:16.300 | And I mean, you're familiar with Tecumseh before.

03:45:19.220 | So there's a, I've got one, actually,

03:45:21.100 | if you could give me 10 seconds, I'll read this one out.

03:45:23.660 | This is a personal favorite, basically.

03:45:26.500 | And I think it sums up, I mean, again,

03:45:28.340 | it's one of those quotes on the internet,

03:45:29.860 | like when Abraham Lincoln said,

03:45:31.020 | "Don't believe everything you read online."

03:45:33.060 | But this is, it's again, attributed, but it's like,

03:45:37.740 | "So live your life that the fear of death

03:45:39.260 | "can never enter your heart.

03:45:40.780 | "Trouble no one about their religion,

03:45:42.420 | "respect others in their view,

03:45:43.740 | "and demand that they respect yours.

03:45:45.660 | "Love your life, perfect your life,

03:45:47.460 | "beautify all things in your life.

03:45:49.580 | "Seek to make your life long,

03:45:50.860 | "and its purpose in the service of your people.

03:45:53.140 | "Prepare a noble death song for the day

03:45:54.780 | "when you go over the great divide.

03:45:56.820 | "Always give a word or sign, a salute,

03:45:58.580 | "when meeting or passing a friend,

03:45:59.900 | "even a stranger, when in a lonely place.

03:46:02.900 | "Show respect to all people, and grovel to none.

03:46:06.040 | "When you arise in the morning,

03:46:07.180 | "give thanks for the food, and for the joy of living.

03:46:09.920 | "If you see no reason for giving thanks,

03:46:11.440 | "the fault lies only in yourself.

03:46:13.620 | "Abuse no one and no thing,

03:46:14.980 | "for abuse turns the wise ones to fools,

03:46:16.900 | "and robs the spirit of its vision.

03:46:19.100 | "When it comes your time to die,

03:46:20.420 | "be not like those whose hearts

03:46:21.700 | "are filled with the fear of death,

03:46:23.240 | "so that when their time comes,

03:46:24.340 | "they weep and pray for a little more time

03:46:25.920 | "to live their lives over again in a different way.

03:46:28.720 | "Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

03:46:31.840 | - Powerful words.

03:46:32.940 | I don't think there's a better way to end it.

03:46:35.180 | Let me just say, we've spoke maybe five, six years ago.

03:46:40.180 | I don't even remember when,

03:46:41.460 | but I'm not exaggerating saying,

03:46:44.260 | you had a huge impact on my life because of the podcast.

03:46:47.500 | You're the reason I was doing the podcast,

03:46:50.820 | as long as I have.

03:46:52.100 | You're the reason I'm doing this podcast.

03:46:55.140 | And it's a stupid little meeting

03:46:57.560 | that you probably didn't know who I was.

03:46:59.160 | I didn't really know who you are.

03:47:00.960 | It was just like a magical moment.

03:47:02.460 | It's a flap of a butterfly wing kind of situation.

03:47:05.400 | And yeah, I'm forever grateful.

03:47:07.660 | You're one of the most inspiring people in my life.

03:47:11.040 | So Ryan, it's a huge honor that you would come here,

03:47:14.920 | Jen, and talk with me, and waste all this time.

03:47:18.520 | I really appreciate it.

03:47:19.360 | It was amazing.

03:47:20.400 | - Thank you so much, Alex.

03:47:21.240 | It's just been a pleasure.

03:47:22.080 | I really appreciate you having us on.

03:47:23.200 | Thank you.

03:47:24.040 | - Thanks, brother.

03:47:25.380 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ryan Hall.

03:47:27.900 | And thank you to our sponsors,

03:47:29.860 | PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App.

03:47:32.420 | Please check out these sponsors in the description

03:47:34.420 | to get a discount and to support this podcast.

03:47:37.900 | If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

03:47:40.180 | review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcast,

03:47:42.400 | follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

03:47:44.940 | or connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman.

03:47:48.100 | And now let me leave you with some words

03:47:49.700 | from Frank Herbert in Dune.

03:47:52.060 | "Deep in the human unconscious

03:47:53.940 | "is a pervasive need for a logical universe

03:47:56.260 | "that makes sense.

03:47:57.660 | "But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."

03:48:01.700 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

03:48:04.460 | (upbeat music)

03:48:07.040 | (upbeat music)

03:48:09.620 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Ryan Hall: Martial Arts and the Philosophy of Violence, Power, and Grace | Lex Fridman Podcast #125

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