How to Invest Dopamine for Motivation & Drive | Michael Easter & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.000 | And I feel like when people talk about the dopamine hits of social media, the data on

00:00:07.200 | this just don't square with the idea that scrolling our phone gives us dopamine hits.

00:00:12.920 | It gives us low-level expenditure.

00:00:16.000 | You know, I want to, on the basis of your books, I wrote something down a couple days

00:00:23.140 | ago.

00:00:23.400 | I was thinking about our conversation.

00:00:24.860 | I was thinking, I've long believed that, you know, dopamine is a currency.

00:00:30.160 | We, it's the universal currency of motivation, right?

00:00:34.020 | It's what literally allows us to ambulate forward.

00:00:36.820 | It controls movement in the body.

00:00:38.380 | That's why people with Parkinson's who lose dopamine neurons can't move.

00:00:41.100 | But in terms of mental movement, it's motivation, like movement towards something, redirecting

00:00:45.820 | our efforts and so forth.

00:00:46.960 | And I was thinking about this idea that we can either spend our dopamine, right, or we

00:00:56.740 | can invest our dopamine.

00:00:58.600 | And this is purely on the basis of your work.

00:01:00.360 | Awesome.

00:01:00.720 | And it seems like all day long, we can potentially spend dopamine.

00:01:05.760 | Scrolling is spending.

00:01:06.820 | And it's the kind of spending we don't even notice that we're doing.

00:01:09.040 | We're sort of leaking.

00:01:10.420 | It's almost like leaking dopamine.

00:01:11.960 | We're not getting these big, quote unquote, dopamine hits.

00:01:15.560 | This is why I don't like the dopamine hit model.

00:01:17.380 | I don't log on Instagram and go like, wow.

00:01:19.700 | Like, it's no, like, it's not like coming back from a misogy and going, I lived.

00:01:25.460 | It's not transformative for the next month.

00:01:27.300 | It keeps you in the rut of looking for more because it's like mental chewing gum.

00:01:31.660 | It's my dad.

00:01:32.880 | A long time ago, he said, be careful of the internet.

00:01:35.760 | I said, why?

00:01:37.580 | And he said, it's just mental chewing gum.

00:01:39.380 | Wise, wise guy.

00:01:40.420 | Yeah, and he's a very regimented guy.

00:01:43.160 | And so we're always spending.

00:01:46.940 | But then there are these things that require effort that are in – we're still spending

00:01:53.460 | dopamine while we're doing it.

00:01:54.540 | Like, if you go do a workout, you're spending effort to do it, but you get something back

00:01:59.160 | on that investment.

00:01:59.880 | So you're investing it.

00:02:01.280 | You're not just spending it.

00:02:02.340 | Yeah, that's great.

00:02:04.340 | And the other one, based on what you told me today, is reflection in states of boredom

00:02:10.960 | or meditation or, you know, for people that orient this way, prayer, whatever it happens

00:02:16.620 | to be.

00:02:17.040 | Or maybe it's even just leaving a social gathering and keeping your phone in your pocket and walking

00:02:22.100 | back to the car and just really thinking about the richness of that interaction.

00:02:25.340 | Like, these little things that are disappearing in our lives these days, but that are so easy

00:02:29.900 | to recapture, that reflection is another way of investing our dopamine.

00:02:33.560 | And I think when we look at the neurobiological literature on dopamine, we're going to realize

00:02:38.940 | that, yeah, of course, addictions spend out your dopamine.

00:02:43.040 | Drop your baseline.

00:02:44.600 | Your bank account is in the red, deep in the red.

00:02:48.700 | Yeah.

00:02:49.020 | It's a whole other discussion.

00:02:51.600 | But that most of us are spending, and then we reset each night with sleep.

00:02:55.180 | And then we spend the next day, and then we reset.

00:02:56.960 | And it's a life of, it becomes kind of a meaningless life.

00:03:00.120 | And this isn't to demonize the social media platforms.

00:03:03.740 | They're pretty good at letting us numb out when we don't want to feel something or feel

00:03:07.340 | drama when we need to feel that, like, lift.

00:03:09.280 | Like, oh, my God, she did that.

00:03:12.100 | He did that.

00:03:12.880 | Oh, my God, the lawsuit got dismissed about these two people who are arguing about who said

00:03:17.400 | what and who did.

00:03:18.100 | I'm like, how boring is it, really?

00:03:21.320 | Yeah.

00:03:21.760 | And how unimportant is it?

00:03:23.060 | But it's not boring because they've taught us how to make it not boring.

00:03:26.680 | Yeah, totally.

00:03:27.580 | And then you look at the comments, and it's like, blech.

00:03:29.420 | It's just, like, gross.

00:03:30.380 | It's like high school forever.

00:03:31.560 | Yeah.

00:03:32.020 | But the worst part of high school.

00:03:33.240 | It effectively trains us to use it.

00:03:35.500 | So when I think about comfort crisis or scarcity brain, I'm saying it's really about how to

00:03:39.400 | invest your dopamine in effort and reflection as a way to capture more capability to lean

00:03:46.620 | into things.

00:03:47.260 | That's really, to me, what I like is the genius of doing hard things that you brought forward

00:03:54.060 | in the comfort crisis.

00:03:55.380 | As I started today's discussion saying, I mean, it really changed my every day because

00:04:01.200 | I think so intensely now about, like, how can I introduce more pain to bring about more

00:04:07.520 | meaning as opposed to comfort, like, meaning in any case.

00:04:12.640 | So, yeah, I think you're really on to the two things that matter most, which are effort

00:04:20.320 | and reflection.

00:04:21.760 | I love that language of spending versus investing.

00:04:24.640 | It's just, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

00:04:28.040 | And the investing is usually things that are going to be a little more challenging, not as

00:04:34.660 | hyper-stimulating, things you maybe wouldn't necessarily want to do at first.

00:04:38.500 | And then once you've done them enough, you realize, oh, this has really changed me in a

00:04:42.880 | fundamental and positive way.

00:04:44.360 | And hopefully you start to sort of crave them.

00:04:46.660 | Like you said, no, I love exercise, right?

00:04:48.400 | That's where we want people to get with all sorts of things that can enhance their life.

00:04:52.440 | And I think, too, I'll add here.

00:04:54.800 | So if you think about people who pile up money and pile up money and invest and invest and

00:05:00.940 | invest and they never spend it, maybe you also need to learn, okay, now that I'm doing all

00:05:06.640 | this investing, it's also okay to spend it sometimes, right?

00:05:10.540 | And then I can really enjoy that because I've done all these things.

00:05:13.240 | And so I find with my own use, I used to sort of beat myself up if I was on, say, Instagram

00:05:21.340 | or whatever, just looking at nonsense.

00:05:23.180 | I like nonsense on Instagram.

00:05:25.220 | And I would beat myself up.

00:05:26.380 | And then I realized, you've done all these things.

00:05:29.940 | Like you wrote for five hours.

00:05:31.720 | You got a workout in.

00:05:33.080 | You took your dog for a walk.

00:05:35.000 | You helped out around the house.

00:05:37.160 | You did all these things.

00:05:37.880 | Dude, watch a freaking dog video for 20 minutes.

00:05:42.100 | So it's fine.

00:05:42.640 | And then I could actually appreciate that more and like I didn't have the guilt around

00:05:46.800 | that, you know?

00:05:47.440 | And it was like sort of the, all right, you've invested a bunch.

00:05:50.260 | You got all this money.

00:05:51.320 | Yeah, buy that thing you don't necessarily need, but it's a nice little boost, you know?

00:05:55.780 | The idea that we all have to become these sickos that love self-punishment and service to just

00:06:03.580 | building up more dopamine reserves, that's definitely not the goal.

00:06:06.560 | I mean, I think one of the reasons that David Goggins is so popular is, well, there are many

00:06:12.040 | reasons.

00:06:12.520 | A, he is how he appears online.

00:06:15.800 | I mean, I've known David since before he had a book, since before his first book.

00:06:19.400 | He was exactly that way.

00:06:20.640 | He was exactly that way.

00:06:22.480 | He's not playing a role, right?

00:06:24.120 | There's no acting.

00:06:24.880 | This is how he functions.

00:06:26.020 | That's great.

00:06:26.920 | It's a life that most people are not going to embrace.

00:06:29.780 | And if they do embrace it partially, I think it will benefit them tremendously.

00:06:34.100 | But he sort of embodies that.

00:06:35.660 | He, excuse me, he doesn't sort of embody that.

00:06:37.920 | He embodies that.

00:06:39.180 | I think that being able to relax and enjoy things and really savor them is another source of,

00:06:46.240 | I won't say everything's investing, but there are certain things that might look like spending

00:06:51.480 | your dopamine that are actually investing them.

00:06:53.140 | And you described a beautiful one as walking with your wife, these long, these long hikes

00:06:57.500 | and walks, like real relating, in-person relating, I think makes us feel so many things.

00:07:05.420 | I mean, there's so much science and psychology about this.

00:07:07.540 | I mean, we definitely evolved to, to connect to other humans.

00:07:12.240 | Absolutely.

00:07:12.800 | You know, so I, I don't think of it as meaningless relaxation to, to just connect with people

00:07:19.060 | and have a barbecue and just relax or just whatever they call it, like Netflix and

00:07:23.120 | chill can be a great thing if it's not the only thing.

00:07:25.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:26.360 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:26.480 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:26.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:27.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:28.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:29.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:30.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:31.880 | I don't think of it as well.

00:07:32.880 | I don't think of it as well.

How to Invest Dopamine for Motivation & Drive | Michael Easter & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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