Would You Have Supported Prohibition in 1913?

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.580 | - Happy Friday everyone.

00:00:05.640 | If you've listened to the podcast for a while,

00:00:07.520 | you know we don't delve into social and legal

00:00:09.420 | and political issues on the podcast very often

00:00:12.320 | for a variety of reasons that we've explained over the years

00:00:15.500 | and that means attempts by APJ listeners

00:00:17.820 | to get us into that conversation

00:00:19.600 | and whether or not the church should legislate sin

00:00:23.360 | must get pretty creative and they do get creative,

00:00:26.880 | even resorting to hypotheticals

00:00:28.340 | as in the case of today's question,

00:00:30.600 | the most recent creative attempt

00:00:32.920 | and it comes to us from an anonymous man,

00:00:34.640 | a regular listener who writes this,

00:00:36.400 | "Pastor John, hello.

00:00:38.060 | "I often wrestle with the question

00:00:39.420 | "over what role our government should play

00:00:41.760 | "in outlawing sin.

00:00:43.840 | "Specifically, I would like to ask you

00:00:45.240 | "a hypothetical question here.

00:00:46.800 | "If you were an influential pastor theologian

00:00:50.020 | "back in 1913 America,

00:00:52.340 | "would you have supported Christian temperance organizations

00:00:55.980 | "and lent your voice to prohibition?"

00:00:59.600 | Pastor John, what would you say?

00:01:01.960 | - I will try to answer this question honestly

00:01:06.440 | but I confess at the very beginning

00:01:10.960 | that this question leads into

00:01:13.520 | complex issues of church-state relations

00:01:19.840 | where I do not have as many answers

00:01:22.360 | as I would like to have.

00:01:25.760 | But I will take you as far as I can

00:01:29.780 | and then you can go further.

00:01:31.340 | The question whether I would have supported prohibition

00:01:35.940 | in 1913 might mean,

00:01:39.360 | would you have supported it

00:01:40.820 | with all the cultural assumptions

00:01:43.380 | I may have shared as a child of my times in that day

00:01:49.700 | and without any of the hindsight that I now have,

00:01:52.660 | it might mean that,

00:01:54.100 | or the question might mean,

00:01:56.440 | given everything I know now,

00:01:59.180 | would I have supported prohibition

00:02:01.920 | if I could get in a time machine and go back?

00:02:04.280 | Now, the answer to the first question is,

00:02:07.960 | I don't know.

00:02:09.880 | I mean, nobody knows.

00:02:13.200 | You don't know who you are.

00:02:15.440 | What would you be like?

00:02:16.680 | It would have been relatively easy

00:02:19.540 | to see that a world without drunkenness

00:02:24.100 | would be a vastly better world

00:02:26.220 | than the one we live in

00:02:27.660 | or the one they lived in in 1913.

00:02:30.180 | And I can imagine myself being persuaded

00:02:33.920 | that the benefits of sobriety in families and workplaces

00:02:38.920 | would justify taking away some legitimate pleasures

00:02:42.780 | that both the Bible and culture would ordinarily allow.

00:02:45.940 | This is the sort of limitation

00:02:49.580 | on people's pleasures and freedoms that we have embraced.

00:02:53.540 | With regard to smoking, for example,

00:02:56.120 | when I was a boy,

00:02:58.420 | it would have been absolutely unthinkable

00:03:02.060 | to tell a person that he could not smoke in an airplane

00:03:06.500 | or in the office where they work or in a restaurant.

00:03:10.220 | Unthinkable.

00:03:12.180 | Rebellion everywhere.

00:03:13.500 | Mandates, mandates.

00:03:15.420 | But little by little,

00:03:17.100 | society as a whole has become so persuaded

00:03:21.740 | that smoking is dangerous to our health

00:03:24.480 | and so unpleasant to most people

00:03:27.760 | that we are willing for governments, goodnight,

00:03:31.580 | and institutions to mandate the prohibition of smoking

00:03:35.320 | in most workplaces and restaurants

00:03:37.200 | and theaters, transportation.

00:03:40.100 | Now, I like these limitations.

00:03:42.480 | Yeah, me too.

00:03:44.000 | I like them so much,

00:03:45.600 | it's easy for me to imagine supporting something

00:03:48.560 | like prohibition for similar reasons.

00:03:51.820 | So I don't know what I would have done in 1913,

00:03:56.820 | but if the question means,

00:03:59.380 | given everything I know now,

00:04:02.460 | would I have supported prohibition

00:04:04.600 | if a time machine could take me back?

00:04:06.340 | And the answer is no, I wouldn't.

00:04:08.600 | First, because the Bible does not require teetotalism.

00:04:13.600 | It prohibits drunkenness.

00:04:15.800 | It warns about the dangers of alcohol.

00:04:18.720 | In the end, it bites like a serpent

00:04:21.840 | and stings like an adder.

00:04:23.820 | Your eyes will see strange things

00:04:25.660 | and your heart utter perverse things.

00:04:27.760 | You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,

00:04:30.800 | like one who lies on the top of a mast.

00:04:34.240 | That's a great picture.

00:04:36.160 | Proverbs 23, 32.

00:04:38.280 | But there's no prohibition in the Bible.

00:04:41.400 | I think a very strong case can be made

00:04:45.640 | for total abstinence in our world

00:04:48.800 | as a matter of wisdom for oneself,

00:04:51.800 | but not as a requirement for others,

00:04:55.280 | except maybe in some institutional,

00:04:57.560 | limited institutional expectations.

00:05:00.120 | This is mainly a matter of conscience.

00:05:02.880 | But second reason I would not get in my time machine

00:05:06.240 | and go back and vote for prohibition

00:05:10.180 | is that it didn't work.

00:05:13.240 | It had unintended consequences

00:05:15.720 | that may have been as destructive

00:05:17.260 | as the previous abuse of alcohol itself.

00:05:19.920 | And this is because unlike the limitations on smoking

00:05:24.920 | in our day, the long-term societal support

00:05:30.040 | was simply not there.

00:05:31.940 | It seemed like it was there because good night,

00:05:34.120 | it takes a lot of people to get a amendment

00:05:37.680 | to the constitution passed in 1919.

00:05:41.840 | But by 1933, the adequate support had disintegrated

00:05:46.840 | and it was reversed.

00:05:49.600 | Now, here's where the issues are raised

00:05:52.340 | like the one our friend asked in his question,

00:05:56.240 | what role should our government play in outlawing sin?

00:06:01.240 | That's part of his question.

00:06:05.280 | That's where it's all leading,

00:06:07.000 | which gets us into the weeds here.

00:06:09.500 | I think a more precise way to ask the question

00:06:13.720 | is how does the state decide

00:06:18.720 | what actions should be outlawed

00:06:22.760 | which Christians regard as sin?

00:06:27.000 | And you'll see in a minute why

00:06:29.920 | I think that's a better question.

00:06:32.560 | So here are my guidelines.

00:06:33.920 | I got, I don't know what I got here.

00:06:35.440 | Four, I think four guidelines for wrestling

00:06:39.700 | with the question about the relationship

00:06:42.980 | between the revealed will of Christ in scripture

00:06:46.300 | and the lawmaking power of the state

00:06:50.740 | enforceable with the sword.

00:06:53.840 | Number one, the church today, the people of Christ

00:06:59.540 | on this side of the cross, unlike Israel

00:07:02.940 | in the old Testament are not a geopolitical entity.

00:07:07.940 | The church is not a nation state.

00:07:10.820 | Therefore the old Testament legal stipulations

00:07:15.400 | with their punishments like capital punishment

00:07:17.700 | for idolatry or cursing one's parents

00:07:20.020 | are not simply brought over and implemented in the church.

00:07:25.940 | The church excommunicates unrepentant idolaters.

00:07:30.360 | It doesn't execute them.

00:07:32.800 | Second, this does not mean that those sins

00:07:37.800 | are less grievous or less worthy of capital punishment.

00:07:42.960 | It means that the church hands over that judgment

00:07:47.600 | to Christ at his coming.

00:07:50.400 | There will be a perfect reckoning

00:07:54.800 | from the judge of the universe.

00:07:56.420 | Christ will settle all accounts.

00:08:00.940 | That ultimate reckoning is not the job of church leaders.

00:08:05.940 | Third, Christian faith and all the heart obedience of faith,

00:08:11.520 | which flows from it, cannot be coerced by the sword

00:08:18.200 | that is by the state.

00:08:20.300 | The entire history of Christendom by force

00:08:24.260 | from Constantine to the Puritans was misguided.

00:08:28.920 | Any arrangement of church state relations

00:08:32.940 | that sanctions state penalties to promote true heart faith

00:08:37.940 | and the heart obedience of faith

00:08:42.780 | will eventually corrupt the church.

00:08:44.840 | Fourth and finally, Jesus said in John 18, 36,

00:08:51.160 | "My kingdom is not of this world.

00:08:53.960 | If my kingdom were of this world,

00:08:56.480 | my servants would have been fighting

00:09:00.960 | that I might not be delivered over to the Jews,

00:09:03.700 | but my kingdom is not of this world."

00:09:07.220 | Now, the inference I draw from that statement

00:09:12.060 | and other aspects of the New Testament

00:09:15.180 | is that Christ in this age does not sanction

00:09:20.180 | the use of the sword to punish those who disobey him.

00:09:25.960 | Or to say it another way,

00:09:28.940 | Christ does not sanction the use of the sword

00:09:33.100 | to enforce disobedience to him.

00:09:37.840 | This means that the state to whom God has given the sword,

00:09:43.500 | according to Romans 13,

00:09:45.420 | should not seek to compel obedience to Christ.

00:09:50.420 | Now listen carefully,

00:09:53.720 | because I'm gonna make some distinctions here

00:09:56.240 | that are fine.

00:09:58.100 | I'll leave a lot of questions unanswered,

00:10:01.460 | but I think these distinctions really help.

00:10:03.680 | Obeying a law that Christ would approve

00:10:09.080 | is not the same as obeying Christ.

00:10:12.820 | And disobeying a law that Christ would approve

00:10:19.820 | is not the same as disobeying Christ.

00:10:23.700 | A person who doesn't even believe that Christ existed

00:10:28.780 | can obey a law that Christ approves.

00:10:33.420 | Therefore, punishment for disobeying a law

00:10:38.760 | that Christ approves is not the same

00:10:42.840 | as punishment for disobeying Christ.

00:10:46.600 | I don't think the state should ever punish a person

00:10:50.800 | for disobeying Christ.

00:10:52.480 | I think that is the prerogative of church discipline.

00:10:57.260 | And I think the most severe form of church discipline

00:11:01.800 | is excommunication, not death.

00:11:05.040 | There is a difference between saying that Christ wills

00:11:11.120 | that a person be punished by the state

00:11:15.760 | for breaking a law Christ approves

00:11:18.720 | and saying that Christ wills that a person be punished

00:11:23.840 | by the state for disobeying him.

00:11:26.660 | The former is right, the latter is wrong.

00:11:29.300 | Christ does will that a person be punished by the state

00:11:34.300 | for breaking a law that he approves.

00:11:38.280 | But Christ does not will that a person be punished

00:11:42.040 | by the state for disobeying Christ.

00:11:45.880 | All of which implies that Christians should consult Christ

00:11:50.880 | in his word when thinking through what sins

00:11:58.880 | should be prohibited by law.

00:12:01.320 | Because the use of the sword

00:12:05.920 | to enforce Christ-approved laws is not the same

00:12:12.640 | as using the sword to enforce obedience to Christ.

00:12:17.640 | - That is complex.

00:12:20.640 | - They'll have to hit replay.

00:12:22.920 | - Amen, rewind and replay.

00:12:25.640 | Even better, read the full transcript of the episode.

00:12:27.640 | I guess this is as good an opportunity as any

00:12:30.520 | to remind everyone out there that as you listen

00:12:32.840 | to this episode, this podcast is transcribed in its entirety

00:12:36.520 | and published at our online home at askpastorjohn.com.

00:12:40.400 | Go there and read today's transcript or any transcript.

00:12:43.440 | It's all there, askpastorjohn.com.

00:12:46.680 | While some Christians are dramatically saved

00:12:50.340 | out of a life of scandalous sin

00:12:52.040 | and have an amazing testimony of deliverance to share,

00:12:55.620 | other Christians, particularly those saved at a young age,

00:12:58.480 | don't have such a dramatic conversion story.

00:13:01.240 | Should Christians with less dramatic testimonies

00:13:03.500 | be okay with that?

00:13:04.960 | That's next time.

00:13:06.240 | I'm your host Tony Rehnke, we will see you back here

00:13:08.120 | on Monday, have a great weekend.

00:13:09.800 | (upbeat music)

00:13:12.380 | (upbeat music)

00:13:14.960 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Would You Have Supported Prohibition in 1913?

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