Why You Can't Focus - 5 Mistakes Keeping You Distracted

00:00:00.000 | So one of the most common complaints I hear from my listeners and readers is that they feel like they're too distracted.

00:00:06.000 | This is a problem they have at work. It is also a problem that many of you have in your life outside of work as well.

00:00:13.000 | When we study mismatches between the modern digital environment and our current lives,

00:00:18.000 | which is more or less the theme of this show, this distraction issue really is one of the big issues that we're dealing with.

00:00:27.000 | Now we've talked about all sorts of different isolated aspects of distraction,

00:00:32.000 | where it comes from, the value of attention, reclaiming attention.

00:00:35.000 | We've talked about all sorts of isolated aspects about that on this show.

00:00:38.000 | But today I wanted to pull a bunch of those ideas together.

00:00:41.000 | I have five big ideas about why you're probably too distracted,

00:00:48.000 | some of them about your life outside of work, some of them about your life in work.

00:00:52.000 | And then for each of those ideas, we have some concrete responses to it.

00:00:56.000 | So if you recognize that source of distraction, if you recognize its dynamics, what can you do in response?

00:01:02.000 | All right, so that's our plan. Let's start with idea one.

00:01:06.000 | You use your phone as a stress reliever.

00:01:10.000 | So here's something I learned recently when I was going through first the acute recovery for my surgery,

00:01:16.000 | for my core issue, and now as I'm going through the rehab for my back because my back got messed up,

00:01:21.000 | because my core was injured, you know how those fun things unfold.

00:01:25.000 | One of the things I learned is that, oh, your phone can be a very powerful distractor stress reliever, right?

00:01:33.000 | Because the type of content you get delivered through your phone,

00:01:36.000 | if you're a social media user, it'll be through social media.

00:01:38.000 | If it's me, it's going to be like news or baseball rumors.

00:01:41.000 | It distracts you. It pushes emotional buttons.

00:01:44.000 | It's a bit of a sort of like a numbing palliative effect.

00:01:47.000 | In fact, when I was on the gurney waiting for my turn for surgery, which I was nervous about for obvious reasons,

00:01:56.000 | I had my phone still, right? They don't take that till the end.

00:01:59.000 | I was looking up on my phone, on Wikipedia, I was reading the technical details of the MIDI format.

00:02:07.000 | I don't know if you know about this, Jesse, but the MIDI format that you use for digital music transmission,

00:02:11.000 | that was very soothing to me.

00:02:13.000 | I was actually reading about the actual packet headers and payloads that have evolved for capturing digital music.

00:02:20.000 | So I get this, right? I get that power.

00:02:23.000 | So what I learned from this is that for a lot of people,

00:02:26.000 | this just becomes a default response for any stress or any boredom.

00:02:30.000 | Because it sort of works.

00:02:32.000 | It will put your mind somewhere else. It'll probably press an emotional cue.

00:02:35.000 | And it gets you just that relief in the moment.

00:02:39.000 | And again, it's not a bad thing in isolation, but when it becomes your default response to any sort of stress and boredom,

00:02:45.000 | when that becomes ingrained into your habit loops, when that reward system is pumping out the dopamine,

00:02:49.000 | every time it sees that phone nearby and you're a little bit uncomfortable,

00:02:52.000 | your life necessarily becomes very distracted.

00:02:55.000 | You can't watch the television show you were looking forward to watching with your full attention.

00:02:59.000 | The phone pulls you in.

00:03:00.000 | You can't enjoy dinner with your family because the phone is pulling you in.

00:03:03.000 | You can't finish that really hard essay or memo or piece of source code you're trying to write at your job

00:03:08.000 | if that phone continues to pull you in.

00:03:10.000 | So we have a potentially positive use in isolation that when it becomes default,

00:03:15.000 | makes your life by default distracted.

00:03:18.000 | All right, so what is our concrete response to that particular dynamic?

00:03:22.000 | You have to introduce systematically higher quality stress relievers into your life.

00:03:28.000 | Build new habits about when I feel that stress.

00:03:32.000 | I know it's built up. I'm stressed about what's going on at life or work.

00:03:35.000 | I just want to pull out that phone.

00:03:37.000 | You have these other higher quality, more self-contained stress relievers.

00:03:41.000 | It could be exercise.

00:03:42.000 | It could be getting outside and doing a particular type of walk.

00:03:45.000 | It could be making a certain type of tea.

00:03:47.000 | Reading is a good one here.

00:03:48.000 | A particular type of books in particular locations that you like to read.

00:03:51.000 | Hobby or hobby-related projects.

00:03:53.000 | You're retraining your mind, in particular your reward system,

00:03:56.000 | to give you dopamine around those high-quality alternatives.

00:03:59.000 | It will also bust the stress.

00:04:01.000 | It will do so in a more durable way.

00:04:03.000 | And because it's an activity that has its own intrinsic value,

00:04:06.000 | you are actually going to feel better about it,

00:04:08.000 | and it doesn't lead to a behavior loop that's going to affect other parts of your life.

00:04:12.000 | Another thing you can do here is just train your mind to be more comfortable

00:04:15.000 | with boredom or a mild amount of stress.

00:04:17.000 | You're just bored sometimes, and you can kind of just like take a deep breath

00:04:20.000 | and slow down and be present.

00:04:22.000 | That requires training, but it makes your mind more comfortable,

00:04:26.000 | and so your reward system becomes less desperate to have some sort of dissipation

00:04:30.000 | of those bad feelings.

00:04:32.000 | You're going to resist better this idea that I have this ready-made distraction ready to go.

00:04:37.000 | All right, idea number two, why you might be too distracted.

00:04:41.000 | In the context of work, you are playing obligation hot potato.

00:04:47.000 | This is an effect I've talked about before on the show,

00:04:49.000 | but I think it's critical for understanding a lot of the distraction

00:04:52.000 | in the modern knowledge workplace.

00:04:54.000 | When you see a message arrive in your inbox or maybe in a chat window,

00:04:59.000 | but you see an incoming message that is sitting there,

00:05:01.000 | this can be a source of interpersonal stress because we say,

00:05:05.000 | "This is now an obligation on my plate.

00:05:07.000 | Someone is waiting for me."

00:05:09.000 | It kind of makes us a little uncomfortable.

00:05:12.000 | Our instinct--this is the bad habit we've learned--is to want to get those things

00:05:17.000 | out of these inboxes or channels as quickly as possible because that will,

00:05:21.000 | in the moment, relieve you of the cognitive burden of knowing

00:05:24.000 | that this thing is your responsibility.

00:05:26.000 | So what we do is we play obligation hot potato, which is what is the quickest way

00:05:30.000 | that, technically speaking, this message or chat is out of my hands

00:05:34.000 | and on someone else's plate.

00:05:36.000 | And so you send it back with a question you made up.

00:05:41.000 | You know it's going to come back.

00:05:43.000 | You're not getting to the heart of the issue.

00:05:44.000 | But temporarily, that's out of your inbox.

00:05:48.000 | Someone's like, "I think we should meet about this."

00:05:50.000 | You're like, "I don't want to deal with thinking through when I want to meet

00:05:52.000 | or whatever.

00:05:53.000 | I don't want to deal with my schedule, so how about--yeah, sure, we should.

00:05:56.000 | When's good for you?"

00:05:57.000 | Technically, that's out of your inbox for now.

00:06:00.000 | It's coming back, but in the moment, it's out of here.

00:06:02.000 | Or you put thoughts?

00:06:03.000 | Shoot it back.

00:06:04.000 | Or you send a couple of random thoughts.

00:06:06.000 | You know it's insufficient for what they're asking for, but in the moment,

00:06:09.000 | it's not there in your inbox waiting for you to see it.

00:06:13.000 | So it's just that drive, obligation hot potato, as I want to get stuff

00:06:16.000 | out of my channels as quickly as possible.

00:06:19.000 | The problem with obligation hot potato is that these things come right back,

00:06:23.000 | and then you punt them back.

00:06:24.000 | When you're doing the bare minimum to get you out of your inbox,

00:06:27.000 | the total number of times that messages will arrive and command your attention

00:06:33.000 | related to this particular issue goes up.

00:06:36.000 | You're punting it.

00:06:37.000 | They punt it back.

00:06:38.000 | You punt it.

00:06:39.000 | They punt it back.

00:06:40.000 | You're throwing the hot potato over there.

00:06:41.000 | It burns their hands.

00:06:42.000 | They throw it over there.

00:06:43.000 | It comes back to you.

00:06:44.000 | The total amount of time now that you are having to react to something

00:06:47.000 | incoming goes up.

00:06:49.000 | The velocity of these things goes up because the granularity gets smaller,

00:06:52.000 | and, therefore, the responses have to be quicker.

00:06:54.000 | And so, overall, your level of distraction,

00:06:56.000 | as captured by the amount of cognitive context shifting you have to do from

00:06:59.000 | your work back to your communication channels, that skyrockets,

00:07:02.000 | all because in the moment when you are in an inbox,

00:07:04.000 | you just want to get things out of there as quickly as possible.

00:07:07.000 | So once you recognize the obligation hot potato dynamic,

00:07:10.000 | it gives you a concrete idea for solving this.

00:07:14.000 | How do we stop playing obligation hot potato?

00:07:16.000 | Well, we're going to have to spend more time with our messages.

00:07:19.000 | So we're not doing the quickest thing.

00:07:21.000 | We're doing the thing that's going to be most effective.

00:07:23.000 | Now I have a very specific definition of most effective here.

00:07:27.000 | What makes a reply effective?

00:07:29.000 | It minimizes the number of follow-up messages you will have to receive

00:07:34.000 | and respond to.

00:07:35.000 | That's what matters.

00:07:36.000 | That's how you have to retrain your brain.

00:07:38.000 | I don't care if it takes me 10 minutes versus 30 seconds to answer this

00:07:43.000 | message right now.

00:07:44.000 | If the 10-minute response will minimize the number of future messages

00:07:49.000 | just generates by a factor of three or four, it's worth it.

00:07:52.000 | If this 10-minute response means like we're basically done,

00:07:55.000 | that is worth it versus the one-minute response that's going to generate

00:07:58.000 | a 10-message back and forth.

00:08:00.000 | So you want to start prioritizing the reduction of unscheduled messages

00:08:04.000 | that you will have to receive and respond to.

00:08:06.000 | That is the thing you're trying to reduce, not the time in the moment.

00:08:10.000 | This means you're going to have to spend more time on your inbox,

00:08:13.000 | or in the time you do spend in your inbox,

00:08:15.000 | you're not going to get through as many messages,

00:08:17.000 | and maybe you will need even longer sessions or more sessions or stuff

00:08:20.000 | that's just going to take longer for you to get to it.

00:08:22.000 | There is something that has to give when you're no longer playing

00:08:24.000 | Obligation Hot Potato, but it's better to have more frequent,

00:08:28.000 | more drawn-out inbox sessions than to have all this back and forth

00:08:33.000 | communication all day long.

00:08:34.000 | A thing that can help here, this is like a bonus tip,

00:08:37.000 | a thing that can help here is if when you go into your inbox,

00:08:41.000 | you take a particular category of message,

00:08:44.000 | messages that are all of the same type.

00:08:46.000 | Maybe they're all dealing with the same project or event,

00:08:49.000 | or they're all of the same type in the sense of these are all paperwork

00:08:52.000 | or logistical questions, etc.

00:08:54.000 | Take a bunch of questions of the same type,

00:08:56.000 | put them in their own folder or label,

00:08:58.000 | then just load up those messages and deal with those one after another.

00:09:02.000 | It will be easier if the things you are dealing with consecutively,

00:09:07.000 | if they're all in the same cognitive context,

00:09:09.000 | it will be much less mentally exhausting to go through those messages.

00:09:12.000 | Then you get another batch.

00:09:13.000 | It's a mistake people make.

00:09:14.000 | When you're batching email, it's not just,

00:09:17.000 | "I'm going to batch the time in which I answer email."

00:09:20.000 | It's much better if you batch the content as well.

00:09:22.000 | It has much less of a cognitive drag.

00:09:23.000 | That will help.

00:09:25.000 | If you don't play obligation hot potato,

00:09:27.000 | your sessions are longer,

00:09:29.000 | but the times you're checking your inbox get much smaller.

00:09:31.000 | That's going to make your life feel a lot less distracted.

00:09:33.000 | Hey, it's Cal Newport here.

00:09:35.000 | I'm going to briefly interrupt the show to tell you about a website

00:09:38.000 | I'm excited about called Done Daily.

00:09:42.000 | At Done Daily, you are assigned a coach who checks in with you every day

00:09:47.000 | to help you organize all you have to do

00:09:49.000 | and make sure that you're getting the right things done.

00:09:53.000 | People will pay thousands per month for executive coaches

00:09:56.000 | to give them exactly this feature,

00:09:58.000 | and Done Daily will give you those same capabilities

00:10:00.000 | at a fraction of that price.

00:10:02.000 | Now, this isn't my company,

00:10:04.000 | but they use a lot of the planning ideas I talk about here on the show,

00:10:08.000 | and I thought I would share it with you.

00:10:10.000 | DoneDaily.com, I think you'll like it.

00:10:13.000 | Check it out if you get a chance.

00:10:14.000 | All right, let's go back to the show.

00:10:16.000 | All right, idea three.

00:10:19.000 | You're doing too many things at the same time.

00:10:22.000 | There's a core idea from my new--

00:10:25.000 | I guess I should call it new-ish book, Jesse,

00:10:27.000 | because we're coming up on the one-year anniversary.

00:10:29.000 | My new-ish book, Slow Productivity,

00:10:32.000 | The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout.

00:10:34.000 | A key idea from that book is overhead tax.

00:10:37.000 | Every professional obligation you agree to

00:10:39.000 | brings with it logistical overhead.

00:10:42.000 | It's emails, it's meetings, it's back and forth that you have to have,

00:10:44.000 | just to sort of organize and keep that obligation rolling.

00:10:49.000 | The more things you're working on at the same time,

00:10:52.000 | the more overhead tax you're paying at the same time.

00:10:55.000 | But that overhead tax, as it increases,

00:10:57.000 | what doesn't increase?

00:10:58.000 | The amount of time you have in the day.

00:11:00.000 | So now the ratio of your time spent servicing work

00:11:04.000 | versus actually doing work becomes unreasonable.

00:11:09.000 | And this is another big source of feeling distracted all the time

00:11:12.000 | is because if you have 10 ongoing obligations,

00:11:16.000 | that is a lot of overhead tax,

00:11:18.000 | and that overhead tax is pulling at your attention

00:11:19.000 | because you're all generating emails and meetings

00:11:21.000 | you have to jump in and out of and you feel really distracted.

00:11:23.000 | The concrete solution here is what I suggest in the book.

00:11:26.000 | Do fewer things at once.

00:11:29.000 | This doesn't mean you're doing fewer things,

00:11:31.000 | you're accomplishing fewer things over a long timescale.

00:11:33.000 | You probably get more done per month or per year

00:11:36.000 | if you do a few things at a time before you move on to the next.

00:11:39.000 | But in the moment, work on fewer things at once

00:11:41.000 | so they can get more of your attention.

00:11:42.000 | Less of your day is spent on overhead tax.

00:11:44.000 | Those tasks will get completed faster

00:11:47.000 | than you bring in the new ones.

00:11:49.000 | You'll be getting things done in a setting

00:11:51.000 | that feels a lot less distracted and a lot less frustrating.

00:11:55.000 | Idea number four, you're disorganized.

00:11:59.000 | If you have not organized well the obligations in your life,

00:12:04.000 | your life is going to feel distracted.

00:12:07.000 | Because what's going to happen is

00:12:08.000 | you're always discovering at the last minute,

00:12:11.000 | "Oh my God, this thing is due. I got to get this done.

00:12:14.000 | I need to find these people. I'm making these calls.

00:12:16.000 | I'm waiting to hear back. Where does this form go?"

00:12:18.000 | There's going to be a sort of freneticism

00:12:20.000 | that is induced when your life is disorganized.

00:12:23.000 | Work gets consolidated around when it's due.

00:12:26.000 | Often you have deadline conflicts

00:12:29.000 | where multiple things are due around the same time

00:12:30.000 | and you're all doing them at the last minute

00:12:32.000 | and now your day is incredibly back and forth

00:12:34.000 | and you're staying up late

00:12:35.000 | to try to make these things happen.

00:12:37.000 | There's always a sense of,

00:12:38.000 | "I need to be checking in on lots of channels

00:12:40.000 | because God knows what I'm missing."

00:12:42.000 | If you're not organized, reacting to things

00:12:45.000 | becomes your main mode of force for your actual efforts.

00:12:48.000 | You have to constantly be checking things

00:12:49.000 | because who knows what I'm missing.

00:12:51.000 | On the other hand, if you're organized,

00:12:53.000 | you know what you have to do

00:12:54.000 | and you make smart decisions about when you're going to do it,

00:12:57.000 | all of that calms down

00:12:59.000 | because you make better allocation of your available time.

00:13:01.000 | You can spread work out more evenly

00:13:03.000 | so no one day is going to feel so overloaded.

00:13:05.000 | You can be more confident about being done with your workday

00:13:08.000 | or during your workday being confident

00:13:09.000 | when I'm working on this,

00:13:11.000 | I don't need to be checking all the time for these other things

00:13:13.000 | because I know what I'm doing

00:13:14.000 | and I know my plan to do it.

00:13:16.000 | The more organized you are,

00:13:17.000 | the less distracted you're going to feel.

00:13:20.000 | The concrete suggestions here is

00:13:21.000 | you got to get your act together

00:13:22.000 | from an organizational perspective.

00:13:25.000 | At a minimum,

00:13:27.000 | you need some sort of task collection system.

00:13:29.000 | I suggest using status boards

00:13:32.000 | where you have a Trello-style board

00:13:34.000 | for each of the roles

00:13:36.000 | you have in your professional life

00:13:38.000 | and then you divide it up into columns.

00:13:40.000 | You have like backburner,

00:13:41.000 | things you're working on this week,

00:13:42.000 | things you're waiting to hear back from people on, etc.

00:13:45.000 | And then individual obligations

00:13:46.000 | are stored in these columns as cards

00:13:48.000 | on which you can then paste or attach or write

00:13:50.000 | all of the relevant information.

00:13:52.000 | You need one of these type of status boards

00:13:54.000 | and you need to practice a full capture methodology

00:13:56.000 | straight out of David Allen's book,

00:13:57.000 | Getting Things Done,

00:13:58.000 | which means nothing is kept just in your head

00:14:00.000 | at the end of every day as part of your shutdown.

00:14:02.000 | You have to make sure that anything is just in your head

00:14:04.000 | gets onto one of those boards

00:14:06.000 | or gets onto your calendar if it's time-specific,

00:14:08.000 | but it's not just in your head.

00:14:10.000 | You full capture

00:14:12.000 | and you got to review that thing.

00:14:13.000 | At the very least,

00:14:14.000 | you need to be doing a weekly plan

00:14:16.000 | where you grapple with your calendar for the week.

00:14:18.000 | You see what's coming up.

00:14:19.000 | You understand what's coming up.

00:14:20.000 | What deadlines are coming up.

00:14:21.000 | You move things around on your calendar.

00:14:24.000 | Maybe I need to cancel this

00:14:25.000 | or move this over here to make time.

00:14:27.000 | And you begin adding appointments with yourself

00:14:29.000 | on your calendar to make sure

00:14:31.000 | that for the time-sensitive things coming up,

00:14:34.000 | that you have enough time put aside to get it done

00:14:36.000 | and you're protecting that time.

00:14:37.000 | Oh my God, this thing is due on Thursday.

00:14:39.000 | Let me block off Monday afternoon

00:14:40.000 | just to make sure that time doesn't get taken

00:14:42.000 | because that's when I'm going to write this memo.

00:14:45.000 | When you do these weekly plans,

00:14:46.000 | it's when you really check in on those

00:14:47.000 | and update those status boards at the very minimum.

00:14:50.000 | You could be looking at these more frequently,

00:14:52.000 | but at the very minimum.

00:14:53.000 | So capture and planning.

00:14:56.000 | Capture and planning is what you need

00:14:58.000 | to not feel like you're constantly distracted.

00:15:01.000 | Now, if you get more advanced,

00:15:02.000 | we talked about on the show,

00:15:03.000 | a full multi-scale planning methodology

00:15:06.000 | combined with these task boards,

00:15:08.000 | put all this together will be the best.

00:15:09.000 | But the very minimum,

00:15:10.000 | you need to be looking at your calendar once a week

00:15:12.000 | and having some place

00:15:13.000 | where all the things you need to do

00:15:14.000 | that aren't on your calendar can live.

00:15:16.000 | All right, final idea for why you're so distracted.

00:15:20.000 | You lack sufficient foundational pursuits.

00:15:25.000 | So a foundational pursuit

00:15:26.000 | is something that requires an investment of focus time

00:15:29.000 | over a long period of time

00:15:30.000 | and it's something you care about.

00:15:32.000 | You can have these in your work life.

00:15:33.000 | You can have these in your life outside of work.

00:15:36.000 | They're foundational

00:15:37.000 | because you can sort of build your life on top of them

00:15:40.000 | and there will be a certain stately pace to your life

00:15:44.000 | and a certain resistance

00:15:46.000 | to a sort of just random, frenetic distractedness.

00:15:50.000 | When you don't have these,

00:15:52.000 | your mind doesn't know what to do.

00:15:54.000 | So at work, it's like, let's just react to things.

00:15:57.000 | We need something to do.

00:15:59.000 | Otherwise, we have no value to this office, right?

00:16:01.000 | If we're not doing things,

00:16:02.000 | so let me jump on calls and answer emails

00:16:05.000 | and be in the mix

00:16:06.000 | and you lean towards distraction.

00:16:07.000 | And at home, you're like,

00:16:08.000 | I don't know what to do with myself.

00:16:10.000 | I'm on my phone, video games.

00:16:13.000 | I need something to do to fill my time

00:16:16.000 | so that it feels more significant.

00:16:18.000 | So you need to have these foundational pursuits

00:16:20.000 | so you do not fall into that sort of default distraction.

00:16:22.000 | So at work, that means you got to have some sort of project

00:16:25.000 | in which you are regularly dedicating

00:16:27.000 | long, deep work sessions towards.

00:16:29.000 | Unbroken concentration towards something important.

00:16:31.000 | It's building a new skill.

00:16:32.000 | It's a new initiative, a new project.

00:16:34.000 | That's the foundation

00:16:35.000 | on which you can build everything else in your work life.

00:16:38.000 | It's what's going to make you

00:16:40.000 | be more resistant to the distraction and busyness.

00:16:42.000 | It's going to give you the courage

00:16:43.000 | to push back or corral that

00:16:44.000 | and not feel like you have no self-worth as an employee.

00:16:47.000 | At home, this is going to be significant hobbies,

00:16:51.000 | sort of reading challenge you're taking on,

00:16:54.000 | self-education goals, health projects,

00:16:56.000 | community involvement,

00:16:57.000 | something from that type of list.

00:16:58.000 | It's like a really big part of your life.

00:17:00.000 | In fact, I recommend people,

00:17:02.000 | especially the hustle types,

00:17:04.000 | work less to make sure you have

00:17:07.000 | a foundational activity outside of your work.

00:17:09.000 | The counterbalance to work.

00:17:10.000 | It's that valuable.

00:17:11.000 | Even if it means that's a couple more hours,

00:17:14.000 | I could be crushing it.

00:17:15.000 | And I'm not because I'm trying to run this community thing

00:17:18.000 | or I have a really important like athletic physical pursuit

00:17:22.000 | that's an important part of my life

00:17:23.000 | and I want to train for it and do it.

00:17:24.000 | That is worth it.

00:17:25.000 | If you don't have that,

00:17:26.000 | the time that remains in your life

00:17:28.000 | is going to be scattered and reactive.

00:17:31.000 | All right, so those were my four ideas

00:17:34.000 | for why you might be too distracted.

00:17:35.000 | I'll list all five ideas.

00:17:38.000 | I was distracted there.

00:17:40.000 | Five ideas.

00:17:41.000 | Idea one,

00:17:43.000 | it's because you're using your phone as a stress reliever.

00:17:45.000 | Idea two,

00:17:46.000 | it's because you're playing too much Obligation Hot Potato.

00:17:48.000 | Idea three,

00:17:49.000 | it's because you're doing too much at the same time.

00:17:51.000 | Idea four,

00:17:52.000 | it's because you're disorganized.

00:17:53.000 | Idea five,

00:17:54.000 | it's because you lack foundational pursuits

00:17:56.000 | in both work and your life.

00:18:00.000 | So there we go.

00:18:01.000 | I think distraction of the type we're talking about

00:18:04.000 | was less of a problem before the advent

00:18:07.000 | of our modern digital environment,

00:18:08.000 | which to me,

00:18:09.000 | all the pieces that come together

00:18:11.000 | for our modern digital environment

00:18:12.000 | to make it what it is,

00:18:13.000 | it's digital technology plus digital networks.

00:18:16.000 | So we have internet technology

00:18:18.000 | and we have this sort of accessibility

00:18:19.000 | through devices like phones and tablets, etc.

00:18:23.000 | This idea that I'm distracted too much

00:18:24.000 | was less of a problem

00:18:26.000 | 50 years ago or 100 years ago.

00:18:28.000 | It doesn't mean, though,

00:18:29.000 | that we can look at those times nostalgically, right?

00:18:31.000 | They had their own problems.

00:18:32.000 | If you go back 100 years,

00:18:34.000 | if we go back to 1926,

00:18:37.000 | what is the real issue going to be?

00:18:38.000 | It's going to be people

00:18:39.000 | who are in these newly industrialized workforces

00:18:41.000 | where their job is grueling

00:18:43.000 | and is breaking down their body

00:18:44.000 | and there's a sense of nihilism

00:18:45.000 | and they're self-medicating

00:18:46.000 | through excessive alcohol consumption

00:18:49.000 | to the point where we get

00:18:50.000 | the Women's Christian Temperance League

00:18:52.000 | pushing through the prohibition

00:18:54.000 | amendment to the Constitution.

00:18:56.000 | That's not better.

00:18:57.000 | It's just different.

00:18:59.000 | Or we had similar in the '70s,

00:19:01.000 | we were all just watching television all the time,

00:19:04.000 | so it was terrible quality entertainment

00:19:06.000 | with drinking our Schlitz beer.

00:19:08.000 | It's not like things were a panacea before.

00:19:11.000 | And if anything,

00:19:12.000 | I actually see these mismatches

00:19:14.000 | with the modern digital environment

00:19:15.000 | and in particular this one of distraction.

00:19:17.000 | I'll take it.

00:19:18.000 | Here's why.

00:19:19.000 | It's much more easily solvable.

00:19:21.000 | Those type of solutions I gave

00:19:22.000 | are not that hard

00:19:24.000 | and they make your life better.

00:19:26.000 | So I'll just end on this idea

00:19:30.000 | because I'm a technocritic.

00:19:31.000 | I don't like this idea

00:19:33.000 | that everything is always bad,

00:19:36.000 | everything is just making things worse,

00:19:38.000 | or there was a better time

00:19:39.000 | that we're getting away from.

00:19:41.000 | We are always going to have problems

00:19:43.000 | because of mismatches

00:19:44.000 | between our culture

00:19:45.000 | and our Paleolithic brain

00:19:46.000 | and Neolithic way we run our lives.

00:19:49.000 | We're always going to have problems.

00:19:51.000 | The question is,

00:19:52.000 | are those problems getting easier

00:19:54.000 | or harder to solve?

00:19:55.000 | And maybe there's some hope

00:19:56.000 | that these modern digital environment problems

00:19:58.000 | aren't going to be easier to solve.

00:20:01.000 | These jobs aren't particularly bad,

00:20:06.000 | for example.

00:20:07.000 | The people who are distracted

00:20:08.000 | with email at work,

00:20:09.000 | they're going to an air-conditioned box

00:20:11.000 | for like eight hours a day

00:20:12.000 | doing non-physical labor

00:20:14.000 | with a huge amount of autonomy.

00:20:15.000 | If you were in 1926,

00:20:17.000 | you would take that bet all day long.

00:20:19.000 | I will do that.

00:20:20.000 | We're in a pretty good setup.

00:20:22.000 | We're just along the borders.

00:20:24.000 | The emails catch us up.

00:20:25.000 | We're too distracted.

00:20:26.000 | There's some nihilism.

00:20:27.000 | Those are more solvable problems.

00:20:28.000 | I just want to add that coda.

00:20:30.000 | This is a relatively new problem,

00:20:32.000 | and it's a problem I'll take

00:20:33.000 | because it is more solvable,

00:20:36.000 | and where we end up when we solve it

00:20:37.000 | is so much better than where we were before.

00:20:40.000 | I can still see an arc of progress

00:20:42.000 | that we're progressing on.

00:20:44.000 | All right, Jesse, so there we go.

00:20:45.000 | That's why you're too distracted.

00:20:47.000 | - So when you were in the surgery

00:20:48.000 | reading your phone,

00:20:50.000 | even though you were on social media,

00:20:51.000 | is that still technically a distraction

00:20:53.000 | or can you kind of treat it like a book?

00:20:55.000 | - You know, I don't know

00:20:56.000 | because it was random.

00:20:58.000 | I was looking for something

00:21:00.000 | literally distracting.

00:21:02.000 | I wouldn't have had the energy

00:21:04.000 | to really focus on something hard.

00:21:06.000 | We'll see in the book segment we do

00:21:08.000 | at the end of today's episode.

00:21:09.000 | In the aftermath of that,

00:21:11.000 | when I was sort of laid up,

00:21:13.000 | I read a lot of math books,

00:21:14.000 | which we'll talk about at the end,

00:21:15.000 | but I couldn't do that then

00:21:17.000 | because I was really nervous.

00:21:19.000 | Surgery is a weird thing.

00:21:21.000 | So I was just like, I don't know.

00:21:22.000 | It's like a random thing.

00:21:23.000 | That's why it's a distraction.

00:21:24.000 | My distractions are more nerdy,

00:21:26.000 | picking up technical protocols or whatever,

00:21:28.000 | but I felt like it was,

00:21:29.000 | but there it served a purpose.

00:21:31.000 | I didn't need to be thinking about

00:21:33.000 | what was about to happen.

00:21:35.000 | - But if you technically had

00:21:36.000 | the Washington Post app on your phone?

00:21:39.000 | - I would have been distracting myself with it.

00:21:41.000 | I wouldn't be like,

00:21:42.000 | I'm really interested in what's happening

00:21:43.000 | in Congress.

00:21:46.000 | I would have been like,

00:21:47.000 | I don't want to think about,

00:21:48.000 | maybe my stomach cut open.

00:21:50.000 | - Makes sense.

00:21:51.000 | - Yeah.

00:21:52.000 | All right, well,

00:21:53.000 | we got a great show coming up.

00:21:54.000 | We got some good questions,

00:21:55.000 | so let's hear from a sponsor.

00:21:58.000 | So I want to talk first

00:21:59.000 | about our friends at Defender,

00:22:02.000 | particularly the Defender 90,

00:22:03.000 | the Defender 110,

00:22:04.000 | and the Defender 130,

00:22:06.000 | which seats up to eight line of vehicles.

00:22:09.000 | These were on my mind the other day

00:22:10.000 | because friend of the show,

00:22:12.000 | Brad Stolberg,

00:22:13.000 | was down in Miami,

00:22:15.000 | and he texted me a picture of a Defender.

00:22:17.000 | It was a tricked out Defender.

00:22:18.000 | I think it was a 130,

00:22:20.000 | and it looked cool.

00:22:22.000 | And he was saying,

00:22:23.000 | "Hey, when are we going to drive around

00:22:26.000 | in one of these things and podcast?"

00:22:28.000 | And I think that's actually not a bad idea.

00:22:30.000 | - It's not a bad idea.

00:22:31.000 | - Me and Stolberg just driving around

00:22:33.000 | in our Defender.

00:22:34.000 | Anyways, it was a really cool looking car.

00:22:35.000 | This one was tricked out.

00:22:36.000 | I think they had kitted it out with,

00:22:38.000 | I don't know the terminology,

00:22:39.000 | but like the off-road type stuff,

00:22:40.000 | like the tire jack

00:22:41.000 | and kind of the cool stuff.

00:22:43.000 | These are cool looking cars.

00:22:45.000 | You can see them,

00:22:46.000 | if you go to LandRoverUSA.com,

00:22:49.000 | you can see the three Defenders,

00:22:50.000 | and you can decide for yourselves

00:22:52.000 | if Brad and I should tour the country

00:22:55.000 | in one of these.

00:22:56.000 | I think we should.

00:22:57.000 | This one, he sent me a picture of,

00:22:58.000 | they had tinted the windows,

00:23:00.000 | so it was extra Miami cool.

00:23:02.000 | (laughing)

00:23:03.000 | I love it.

00:23:04.000 | We'll just have an arm up,

00:23:05.000 | just podcasting like it's an episode

00:23:07.000 | of Comedian in Cars.

00:23:09.000 | But that would be cool.

00:23:10.000 | So anyways, I appreciated that he was

00:23:12.000 | on the lookout for Defenders,

00:23:14.000 | because I don't know,

00:23:15.000 | it's a great looking car.

00:23:16.000 | It's got that great tech,

00:23:17.000 | but I just love the way it is.

00:23:19.000 | It just has cool lines.

00:23:20.000 | And then like the cool,

00:23:21.000 | comfortable ride,

00:23:22.000 | and it has the great technology,

00:23:23.000 | and you can drive it off road,

00:23:24.000 | and it has the camera that will show you

00:23:26.000 | like what's under your car.

00:23:27.000 | You can avoid obstacles,

00:23:28.000 | and it looks nice in Miami.

00:23:30.000 | But I just love that idea,

00:23:31.000 | me and Brad just cruising,

00:23:33.000 | cruising in our Defender.

00:23:35.000 | So anyways, you can design your Defender

00:23:37.000 | at LandRoverUSA.com.

00:23:40.000 | Go there, check it out.

00:23:41.000 | Let me know if you think

00:23:42.000 | I should be cruising in one of those.

00:23:45.000 | You think maybe it'll be cooler

00:23:46.000 | than my Kia Carnival minivan,

00:23:49.000 | which is black though.

00:23:50.000 | We have a black one.

00:23:51.000 | I think the Defender looks cooler.

00:23:53.000 | I also want to talk about a new sponsor,

00:23:55.000 | a high-tech sponsor for my IT,

00:23:58.000 | computer science folks out there.

00:24:00.000 | We all speak the same language.

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00:24:03.000 | Here's the thing,

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00:24:38.000 | Man, when I first got started out

00:24:40.000 | in computer programming,

00:24:41.000 | things were so simple.

00:24:42.000 | You would just build a program

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00:25:14.000 | All right, I got a deal.

00:25:16.000 | Actually, I got two deals.

00:25:18.000 | Deal number one,

00:25:19.000 | if Jesse can explain to me

00:25:21.000 | what the ISO 27001 standard is,

00:25:24.000 | I will give a visitor,

00:25:25.000 | I'll give a listener $10,000.

00:25:28.000 | - I can't.

00:25:29.000 | - Oh, sorry, listener.

00:25:30.000 | That would have been yours.

00:25:31.000 | I love these ads

00:25:32.000 | that for people like me

00:25:33.000 | who know startups and computer science,

00:25:35.000 | know all these buzzwords

00:25:36.000 | and confuse normal people.

00:25:38.000 | I do have a better deal though.

00:25:40.000 | My listeners will get $1,000 off Vanta

00:25:44.000 | if you go to vanta.com/deepquestions.

00:25:47.000 | So if you know what I'm talking about here,

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00:26:00.000 | to get $1,000 off.

00:26:03.000 | That might be our best promo.

00:26:05.000 | Is that the biggest promo amount

00:26:06.000 | we've ever given for something?

00:26:07.000 | - I think so.

00:26:08.000 | - All right.

00:26:10.000 | Until next week's,

00:26:12.000 | if you go to landriverusa.com/deep,

00:26:16.000 | you get the first Defender for free.

00:26:19.000 | First Defender for free.

00:26:21.000 | But you gotta use the promo code.

00:26:22.000 | That'd be funny

00:26:23.000 | if there's just a promo code

00:26:24.000 | when you're signing your paperwork

00:26:26.000 | to buy a new car.

00:26:27.000 | They just put down a sheet

00:26:28.000 | with a box in the middle

00:26:29.000 | and you write like deep 20.

00:26:31.000 | All right, enough of that.

00:26:32.000 | Let's move on to our questions.

00:26:35.000 | - All right, first question's from Arnaud.

00:26:38.000 | I'm developing a documentary film project

00:26:40.000 | focused on environmental issues.

00:26:42.000 | I don't like social media,

00:26:43.000 | but started setting up Instagram and LinkedIn.

00:26:46.000 | I'd much prefer to have a solid newsletter.

00:26:49.000 | What should I do?

00:26:50.000 | - All right, let me tell you the way,

00:26:52.000 | I've been refining my thinking.

00:26:53.000 | Let me tell you the way

00:26:54.000 | I've been refining my thinking

00:26:56.000 | when it comes to the use of these,

00:26:58.000 | let's call them, I don't know,

00:26:59.000 | digital attention or digital content tools.

00:27:01.000 | Digital content tools is a good term.

00:27:04.000 | There's some points about this

00:27:05.000 | that have been confusing to me

00:27:06.000 | and I think I have a new framework

00:27:07.000 | for thinking about this

00:27:08.000 | that helps with those confusions.

00:27:10.000 | You can let me know if you buy this.

00:27:12.000 | When it comes to digital content tools

00:27:14.000 | like namely social media and newsletters,

00:27:16.000 | maybe we could throw a podcast in there,

00:27:17.000 | but let's just talk about

00:27:18.000 | social media and newsletters primarily.

00:27:21.000 | There are two different roles

00:27:23.000 | these can play in helping you

00:27:26.000 | with like the success of a project

00:27:28.000 | or professional endeavor.

00:27:30.000 | And I think we get confused

00:27:32.000 | when we mix these roles together.

00:27:33.000 | So let me pull these roles apart

00:27:35.000 | and we'll see if this clarify things.

00:27:37.000 | All right, role number one.

00:27:40.000 | Social media and newsletters

00:27:41.000 | can be something that you can deploy

00:27:44.000 | after something you're doing becomes successful

00:27:48.000 | to help you magnify

00:27:50.000 | or make more pervasive that success, right?

00:27:54.000 | So if you're doing something

00:27:55.000 | like you're an author who hits a wave

00:27:58.000 | and is getting a lot of attention,

00:27:59.000 | you have a startup that is buzzy,

00:28:01.000 | it's doing something

00:28:02.000 | that people think is really interesting.

00:28:03.000 | Your movie or your album

00:28:05.000 | is like starting to gather attention

00:28:07.000 | or has got some good reviews

00:28:09.000 | and now suddenly everyone's paying attention.

00:28:11.000 | Social media and newsletters in this circumstance

00:28:13.000 | can be very helpful

00:28:14.000 | for spreading or amplifying that success

00:28:17.000 | and/or solidifying that audience.

00:28:19.000 | So for example,

00:28:20.000 | you might start putting up lots of social clips

00:28:22.000 | that are shareable about your documentary

00:28:24.000 | or relevant to your book.

00:28:25.000 | And if people are really into it,

00:28:26.000 | they're going to share it

00:28:27.000 | and that expands the reach

00:28:29.000 | because you have people organically,

00:28:30.000 | authentically sharing stuff

00:28:31.000 | that's about what you're doing.

00:28:33.000 | If you're an author

00:28:34.000 | whose book is doing really well,

00:28:36.000 | well now you can solidify access

00:28:38.000 | to that audience

00:28:40.000 | by trying to capture them

00:28:41.000 | on an email newsletter

00:28:42.000 | where now you have a way

00:28:43.000 | to actually talk to your audience directly.

00:28:45.000 | So that's a primary role these play.

00:28:47.000 | But that role requires first

00:28:50.000 | that you're doing something that's successful

00:28:52.000 | and then it's about

00:28:53.000 | how do you professionally maximize

00:28:55.000 | the opportunities that that creates.

00:28:57.000 | So in that situation,

00:28:58.000 | if you're working on your documentary

00:29:00.000 | or film project

00:29:01.000 | and it starts to take off,

00:29:02.000 | you want to make sure

00:29:03.000 | you have pros in place

00:29:04.000 | to sort of take advantage

00:29:05.000 | of these possibilities

00:29:06.000 | to help spread the word,

00:29:08.000 | to harness the energy

00:29:09.000 | and harness the audience.

00:29:10.000 | The second role,

00:29:12.000 | technically,

00:29:13.000 | that social media newsletters can play

00:29:15.000 | is as something that

00:29:17.000 | builds an audience

00:29:19.000 | and then deploys that audience

00:29:21.000 | towards the primary project

00:29:23.000 | you're working on

00:29:24.000 | and makes that project more successful

00:29:25.000 | than it otherwise would be.

00:29:26.000 | So it's like what makes

00:29:27.000 | your project successful.

00:29:29.000 | This is where I think

00:29:30.000 | a lot of people think about

00:29:32.000 | using social media and newsletters.

00:29:34.000 | It's almost never successful.

00:29:36.000 | Role two is almost never successful.

00:29:39.000 | So we mix these two things up.

00:29:40.000 | So it's not like

00:29:41.000 | social media newsletters aren't important

00:29:44.000 | and we see really successful projects

00:29:46.000 | that really lean into this.

00:29:47.000 | But there's often

00:29:48.000 | a chicken and egg inversion happening there.

00:29:50.000 | They're professionally

00:29:51.000 | taking advantage of the audience

00:29:52.000 | they've built through other means

00:29:54.000 | as opposed to

00:29:55.000 | they did something first

00:29:56.000 | to build an audience

00:29:57.000 | and then they used that

00:29:58.000 | to make their primary project succeed.

00:30:00.000 | And where you do see that happening,

00:30:02.000 | typically the primary project came later.

00:30:04.000 | This is someone who had success

00:30:07.000 | in one of these realms.

00:30:08.000 | Typically they had success in social media

00:30:10.000 | and then they said,

00:30:11.000 | "Oh, why don't I do a project

00:30:12.000 | to take advantage of that?"

00:30:13.000 | And there there's

00:30:14.000 | a big survivorship bias issue

00:30:15.000 | because like most people

00:30:16.000 | don't have success on these platforms.

00:30:17.000 | And those who do

00:30:18.000 | are more likely to say,

00:30:19.000 | "Maybe I'll do a book."

00:30:21.000 | Like Sahil Bloom

00:30:22.000 | has a book out right now

00:30:23.000 | that's doing very well.

00:30:25.000 | He has a huge presence online.

00:30:27.000 | So the book is doing very well,

00:30:29.000 | but the huge presence online came first.

00:30:31.000 | The reason why that direction is

00:30:33.000 | it's hard to deploy on demand.

00:30:36.000 | It's hard to say,

00:30:37.000 | "I have this primary project.

00:30:38.000 | Let's go build a big newsletter

00:30:39.000 | or social to help it,"

00:30:41.000 | is that it's really hard

00:30:43.000 | when you're not starting

00:30:44.000 | with an already successful

00:30:45.000 | brand name or project

00:30:46.000 | to build a big social presence

00:30:47.000 | or newsletter.

00:30:49.000 | If you look at like Substack,

00:30:50.000 | what's successful on Substack?

00:30:52.000 | I mean, it's almost always

00:30:54.000 | people who already have

00:30:56.000 | earned audience trust painstakingly.

00:30:58.000 | It's journalists.

00:31:00.000 | It's authors with successful books.

00:31:03.000 | I have a big newsletter.

00:31:04.000 | We got 125,000 people on it,

00:31:06.000 | something like that.

00:31:07.000 | That's because I've been writing books

00:31:09.000 | for whatever it is now, 20 years,

00:31:10.000 | and have built trust

00:31:11.000 | with a lot of audience

00:31:12.000 | and then captured it.

00:31:14.000 | Nate Silver makes a lot of money

00:31:15.000 | off of his Substack,

00:31:17.000 | but he had a massively successful

00:31:20.000 | journalistic career,

00:31:22.000 | especially at the New York Times

00:31:23.000 | after his blog got taken up.

00:31:24.000 | People know him and follow him,

00:31:25.000 | so they followed him to Substack.

00:31:27.000 | It's very hard to do this from scratch.

00:31:29.000 | That's because these markets

00:31:30.000 | are attention markets,

00:31:31.000 | and attention markets,

00:31:32.000 | especially when

00:31:34.000 | these attention markets

00:31:35.000 | are pretty efficient

00:31:36.000 | and pretty competitive.

00:31:38.000 | Why should someone

00:31:39.000 | pay attention to you?

00:31:40.000 | That is a hard question to answer.

00:31:43.000 | And so what happens then

00:31:44.000 | is people say,

00:31:45.000 | "Well, I did the stuff

00:31:47.000 | you would do for role one."

00:31:49.000 | On role one,

00:31:50.000 | if you have a successful book

00:31:52.000 | and you want to use

00:31:53.000 | media and newsletters,

00:31:54.000 | you're like,

00:31:55.000 | "I'm going to systematically

00:31:56.000 | make clips about my book,

00:31:57.000 | and I'm going to very carefully

00:31:58.000 | have my web presences

00:32:00.000 | ask for newsletter subscribers,

00:32:02.000 | and because people

00:32:03.000 | are really into me

00:32:04.000 | and what I'm doing,

00:32:05.000 | that will help spread

00:32:06.000 | and will gather a lot of people."

00:32:07.000 | So they'll be like,

00:32:08.000 | "I'll do that,

00:32:09.000 | but for my unknown project,"

00:32:10.000 | and nothing happens

00:32:11.000 | because the clips you're making

00:32:12.000 | about your project,

00:32:13.000 | no one cares about

00:32:14.000 | if they don't already know

00:32:15.000 | about your project.

00:32:16.000 | And your newsletter

00:32:17.000 | that you have all these

00:32:18.000 | sign-up widgets for,

00:32:19.000 | no one wants to sign up for

00:32:20.000 | if they don't know who you are

00:32:21.000 | and they don't care about it.

00:32:22.000 | So I think separating

00:32:23.000 | a lot of the confusions

00:32:24.000 | people have,

00:32:25.000 | they're doing the stuff

00:32:26.000 | you observe for role one

00:32:28.000 | as working,

00:32:29.000 | and they're trying to

00:32:30.000 | use that to succeed

00:32:31.000 | in role two.

00:32:32.000 | But in role two,

00:32:33.000 | almost no one succeeds,

00:32:34.000 | and if you want to succeed there,

00:32:35.000 | you've got to make a huge swing.

00:32:36.000 | Like, if you want to try to

00:32:37.000 | build a social presence

00:32:39.000 | from scratch,

00:32:40.000 | you really have to think about it

00:32:41.000 | like you're a showrunner

00:32:42.000 | for a cable network.

00:32:43.000 | Like, "I've got to try

00:32:44.000 | to make a show

00:32:45.000 | that's going to break through

00:32:46.000 | and get a big audience."

00:32:47.000 | It can't just be random.

00:32:48.000 | It can't just be,

00:32:49.000 | "Let's just film some stuff

00:32:50.000 | and put it on AMC

00:32:51.000 | and hope people watch."

00:32:52.000 | You have to, like,

00:32:53.000 | really think through,

00:32:54.000 | like, "There's a niche

00:32:55.000 | in the market.

00:32:56.000 | I've got to really invest in this.

00:32:57.000 | I think this is different

00:32:58.000 | than what anyone else is doing.

00:32:59.000 | It's very catchy.

00:33:00.000 | It plays on the medium well."

00:33:01.000 | Like, you really would have

00:33:02.000 | to be thinking about this

00:33:03.000 | like a major endeavor.

00:33:04.000 | Newsletters are even harder.

00:33:05.000 | People don't sign up

00:33:06.000 | for newsletters

00:33:07.000 | if they don't have

00:33:08.000 | a reason to do so.

00:33:09.000 | So don't mess up,

00:33:10.000 | don't mix up

00:33:11.000 | role one strategies

00:33:12.000 | for this technology

00:33:13.000 | to try to achieve

00:33:14.000 | a role two goal.

00:33:16.000 | And so I think

00:33:17.000 | making these separations,

00:33:18.000 | hopefully that helps clarify

00:33:19.000 | how people think about this.

00:33:22.000 | I don't know.

00:33:23.000 | I think it helps me.

00:33:24.000 | Because, I don't know, Jesse,

00:33:25.000 | you tell me if you think

00:33:26.000 | that's more clarifying.

00:33:27.000 | But that's basically the way,

00:33:29.000 | that's how I finally realized

00:33:30.000 | what people were doing.

00:33:31.000 | And so, like, well,

00:33:32.000 | I'm doing the same things

00:33:33.000 | Ryan Holiday is doing.

00:33:34.000 | I'm looking at, like,

00:33:35.000 | the clips he's putting

00:33:36.000 | on his Instagram,

00:33:37.000 | and I'm doing that myself,

00:33:38.000 | and why don't I have

00:33:40.000 | the followers?

00:33:41.000 | And it's like, well,

00:33:42.000 | he already has the audience,

00:33:43.000 | and so he's just feeding them

00:33:45.000 | things they can spread.

00:33:46.000 | So if you do that same thing

00:33:48.000 | when you don't yet

00:33:49.000 | have the audience,

00:33:50.000 | it's not going to happen.

00:33:51.000 | So there's got to be

00:33:52.000 | some core,

00:33:53.000 | you have to get the audience

00:33:54.000 | or win the audience

00:33:55.000 | at some point.

00:33:56.000 | And if you don't have something,

00:33:57.000 | to win an audience

00:33:58.000 | from scratch on social media

00:33:59.000 | is really hard.

00:34:00.000 | It's like having your show

00:34:01.000 | be top five in the ratings.

00:34:02.000 | It's just really hard to do.

00:34:04.000 | All right.

00:34:05.000 | What do we got next?

00:34:06.000 | Next question is from Tom.

00:34:08.000 | I'm a software engineer

00:34:09.000 | wanting to take on

00:34:10.000 | more technically advanced

00:34:11.000 | work projects involving

00:34:12.000 | LLMs and 3D computer graphics.

00:34:15.000 | My last formal math class

00:34:16.000 | was in high school,

00:34:17.000 | so I lack the foundational skills

00:34:19.000 | to be good.

00:34:20.000 | To be so good,

00:34:21.000 | I can't be ignored.

00:34:22.000 | I think I need to add

00:34:23.000 | one to two hours of daily study.

00:34:25.000 | How can I do this

00:34:26.000 | on top of a full plate of work,

00:34:27.000 | hobbies, exercise, and young kids?

00:34:30.000 | Well, you know,

00:34:31.000 | I'm going to start my answer

00:34:32.000 | by saying make sure first

00:34:34.000 | you're facing

00:34:35.000 | the productivity dragon.

00:34:37.000 | How much time

00:34:38.000 | do these various things

00:34:39.000 | you care about take?

00:34:41.000 | And if that time

00:34:42.000 | adds up to more time

00:34:43.000 | than you have reasonably available,

00:34:44.000 | you can't do all the things.

00:34:46.000 | The universe,

00:34:47.000 | and in particular

00:34:48.000 | the physics of time,

00:34:50.000 | do not care about

00:34:52.000 | your list of what you want to do.

00:34:55.000 | So the universe

00:34:56.000 | is not going to accommodate

00:34:57.000 | by bending the rules of time

00:35:00.000 | the fact that in addition

00:35:01.000 | to all these things,

00:35:02.000 | you want to do something else as well.

00:35:03.000 | So facing the productivity dragon

00:35:05.000 | can be freeing sometimes, right?

00:35:07.000 | Because it might lead you to say,

00:35:09.000 | I like my full life

00:35:10.000 | outside of work,

00:35:11.000 | and I have young kids,

00:35:12.000 | and I'm into this exercise,

00:35:14.000 | and I don't really have time

00:35:16.000 | to pick up a major new skill.

00:35:17.000 | That time doesn't exist.

00:35:18.000 | And okay, great.

00:35:19.000 | Then I don't feel guilty

00:35:20.000 | about not doing that.

00:35:22.000 | And that might be the answer here.

00:35:24.000 | That you face the productivity dragon

00:35:26.000 | and say we can't do

00:35:27.000 | all of these things,

00:35:28.000 | so maybe I'll put my attention

00:35:29.000 | towards getting better

00:35:31.000 | at the things I'm already doing at work

00:35:32.000 | during work itself.

00:35:34.000 | Through my selection of projects,

00:35:35.000 | for example,

00:35:36.000 | taking on projects

00:35:37.000 | that stretch my skills,

00:35:38.000 | and I can actually act

00:35:40.000 | on those stretches during work.

00:35:41.000 | I'm learning new things

00:35:42.000 | to try to use.

00:35:43.000 | I'm learning this skill

00:35:44.000 | for exactly the feature

00:35:45.000 | I'm trying to add,

00:35:46.000 | the sprint I'm doing right now.

00:35:47.000 | You're integrating the learning

00:35:48.000 | into your work.

00:35:49.000 | You're moving your project skills

00:35:51.000 | towards areas that you think

00:35:52.000 | are going to give you

00:35:53.000 | more career capital that's useful.

00:35:55.000 | Let me just be better

00:35:56.000 | about what I'm doing

00:35:57.000 | during the work day.

00:35:58.000 | That might be the answer.

00:36:00.000 | Or the answer might be,

00:36:01.000 | no, no, no, I'm doing

00:36:02.000 | lifestyle-centric planning,

00:36:03.000 | and if I could do LLM work,

00:36:05.000 | it's going to open up

00:36:06.000 | a lot of things.

00:36:07.000 | Maybe there's a lot of jobs

00:36:08.000 | I could do remote

00:36:09.000 | at 1.5x the salary,

00:36:10.000 | which really would open up

00:36:11.000 | this whole vision I have

00:36:13.000 | for what I want to do with life.

00:36:14.000 | Or maybe if I could do LLM work,

00:36:15.000 | it could be six months on,

00:36:17.000 | six months off.

00:36:18.000 | Maybe it unlocks

00:36:19.000 | something really cool.

00:36:20.000 | I've got to figure this out.

00:36:21.000 | In that case,

00:36:23.000 | again, you have to face reality

00:36:25.000 | and look for some

00:36:26.000 | more extreme options.

00:36:28.000 | For example,

00:36:29.000 | maybe what you need to do

00:36:31.000 | is take vacation time

00:36:32.000 | and be like,

00:36:33.000 | I'm going to take 10 days

00:36:34.000 | and just hammer on this

00:36:36.000 | with a course on this technology

00:36:38.000 | six hours a day,

00:36:39.000 | crash course this,

00:36:41.000 | maybe spend two days

00:36:42.000 | with someone who knows

00:36:43.000 | all about this,

00:36:44.000 | pay someone to come to me

00:36:45.000 | on the weekend

00:36:46.000 | and be like,

00:36:47.000 | teach me how to build this LLM

00:36:49.000 | using whatever particular,

00:36:51.000 | I'm using TensorFlow

00:36:52.000 | or something like this.

00:36:53.000 | I want you to really

00:36:54.000 | walk me through it

00:36:55.000 | and explain that to me,

00:36:56.000 | explain that to me,

00:36:57.000 | explain that to me.

00:36:58.000 | I'm going to just

00:36:59.000 | crash course it.

00:37:00.000 | It might mean you're saying,

00:37:01.000 | okay, here's what I want to do.

00:37:02.000 | I normally work

00:37:03.000 | from nine to five,

00:37:04.000 | but what I'm going to do

00:37:05.000 | is I'm going to start work

00:37:06.000 | at eight so I can get

00:37:07.000 | an hour in every morning

00:37:08.000 | on an online course

00:37:09.000 | and then stretch that out

00:37:10.000 | over six months

00:37:11.000 | to pick up the skills.

00:37:12.000 | Maybe what this is going

00:37:13.000 | to require is like,

00:37:14.000 | I'm going to have to ask

00:37:15.000 | a big sacrifice for my wife

00:37:16.000 | and say, look,

00:37:17.000 | I'm not going to be able

00:37:18.000 | to do my school drop-offs

00:37:19.000 | for four months,

00:37:20.000 | but here's why.

00:37:21.000 | If I could pick up this skill,

00:37:22.000 | I think it's going to get us

00:37:23.000 | closer to X, Y, and Z

00:37:24.000 | or we'll swap back

00:37:25.000 | and I'll take them all

00:37:26.000 | after this is over,

00:37:27.000 | but you might have

00:37:28.000 | to change something,

00:37:29.000 | try to do something

00:37:30.000 | more extreme

00:37:32.000 | or you find a way

00:37:33.000 | to get formal permission.

00:37:35.000 | Okay, I'm doing the math.

00:37:36.000 | It doesn't add up.

00:37:37.000 | My evening doesn't

00:37:38.000 | have this time.

00:37:39.000 | Let me get formal position

00:37:40.000 | from my boss.

00:37:41.000 | I spend one to two every day

00:37:44.000 | working on an online course

00:37:46.000 | on LLMs because I think

00:37:47.000 | I should have that skill

00:37:48.000 | because we might want to,

00:37:49.000 | you know,

00:37:50.000 | I need to be conversant

00:37:51.000 | in that if we want

00:37:52.000 | to add those features

00:37:53.000 | and they're like,

00:37:54.000 | okay, yeah,

00:37:55.000 | if you can work around

00:37:56.000 | and not fall behind

00:37:57.000 | on your whatever.

00:37:58.000 | So you might have,

00:37:59.000 | you could do something,

00:38:00.000 | you have to engineer

00:38:01.000 | something more extreme.

00:38:02.000 | That's not just,

00:38:03.000 | I'll just add this

00:38:04.000 | to what I do after work,

00:38:05.000 | but face the dragon.

00:38:06.000 | Don't try to change

00:38:07.000 | the laws of physics and time

00:38:08.000 | and either settle on,

00:38:09.000 | well, let me build my capital

00:38:10.000 | and what I'm doing

00:38:11.000 | or find something

00:38:13.000 | you can change.

00:38:14.000 | That's going to make

00:38:15.000 | that more possible.

00:38:16.000 | My only other word

00:38:17.000 | of advice is going to be

00:38:18.000 | if you're going to learn

00:38:19.000 | something new,

00:38:20.000 | make sure every minute

00:38:21.000 | you're spending

00:38:22.000 | is actually challenging you

00:38:23.000 | and helping you learn

00:38:24.000 | something new.

00:38:25.000 | Like I want to actually

00:38:26.000 | build a LLM using

00:38:27.000 | open source model

00:38:28.000 | and these libraries.

00:38:29.000 | I have that goal

00:38:30.000 | and everything I'm doing

00:38:31.000 | is like towards that goal.

00:38:32.000 | So I'm not just getting

00:38:33.000 | lost reading

00:38:34.000 | and watching YouTube videos

00:38:35.000 | and like generally exploring

00:38:36.000 | and having ideas

00:38:37.000 | and people are drawing

00:38:38.000 | cute diagrams of transformers.

00:38:39.000 | You don't really know

00:38:40.000 | what's going on.

00:38:41.000 | Like no,

00:38:42.000 | if you need to learn

00:38:43.000 | linear algebra

00:38:44.000 | to understand

00:38:45.000 | what they're talking about

00:38:46.000 | when they're doing,

00:38:47.000 | what's the dot product?

00:38:48.000 | I don't remember

00:38:49.000 | how to do

00:38:50.000 | metrics embeddings

00:38:51.000 | or whatever.

00:38:52.000 | Go learn that

00:38:53.000 | with like a course

00:38:54.000 | you're learning it

00:38:55.000 | and then be like,

00:38:56.000 | I want to then use that

00:38:57.000 | to build something here

00:38:58.000 | and show that I built it.

00:38:59.000 | So be very concrete.

00:39:00.000 | You don't want to waste the time

00:39:01.000 | because you don't have

00:39:02.000 | that much time

00:39:03.000 | to actually spare.

00:39:04.000 | All right,

00:39:05.000 | who do we got next?

00:39:06.000 | Next question is from Ryan.

00:39:07.000 | I'm in the Bay Area.

00:39:08.000 | I'm a Bay Area tech guy

00:39:09.000 | in my fifties

00:39:10.000 | who has spent the last 25 years

00:39:11.000 | pursuing one lifestyle plan

00:39:14.000 | focused on the hustle

00:39:16.000 | of building high growth products

00:39:17.000 | while raising high growth kids.

00:39:19.000 | I'd like to spend

00:39:20.000 | the next 25 years

00:39:21.000 | pursuing a very different

00:39:22.000 | lifestyle plan

00:39:23.000 | anchored in the emerging set

00:39:24.000 | of second mountain core values.

00:39:26.000 | I even took a year off

00:39:27.000 | as a sabbatical

00:39:28.000 | to figure this out

00:39:29.000 | but found myself

00:39:30.000 | coming right back

00:39:31.000 | to my first mountain

00:39:32.000 | at the end.

00:39:33.000 | - Do you think

00:39:34.000 | when he says high growth kids,

00:39:35.000 | he's trying to have his kids be tall?

00:39:37.000 | That's what I'm thinking.

00:39:38.000 | Yeah.

00:39:39.000 | There's lots of milk.

00:39:41.000 | Gets you tall.

00:39:43.000 | I was just watching.

00:39:44.000 | I re-watched

00:39:45.000 | because I have to watch things

00:39:46.000 | while I do my PT.

00:39:48.000 | I was re-watching Last Dance,

00:39:50.000 | the ESPN documentary

00:39:51.000 | about the 98 bulls.

00:39:53.000 | Yeah.

00:39:54.000 | - But it saved a lot of people

00:39:55.000 | during COVID.

00:39:56.000 | - Yeah,

00:39:57.000 | that was early in COVID.

00:39:58.000 | Yeah,

00:39:59.000 | so I'm re-watching that whole thing.

00:40:00.000 | But anyways,

00:40:01.000 | my point is if you're tall,

00:40:02.000 | you can do well.

00:40:03.000 | - Yeah,

00:40:04.000 | you can do well.

00:40:05.000 | Some of those guys,

00:40:06.000 | it's crazy.

00:40:07.000 | Like Scotty Pippen

00:40:08.000 | is playing,

00:40:10.000 | oh God,

00:40:11.000 | was this at the high school level maybe?

00:40:13.000 | Maybe at the college level.

00:40:14.000 | He was like 6'2".

00:40:15.000 | - Yeah,

00:40:16.000 | he grew a ton.

00:40:17.000 | - Yeah,

00:40:18.000 | and they're like,

00:40:19.000 | you're like a fine basketball player

00:40:20.000 | but if you're 6'2",

00:40:21.000 | unless you're Allen Iverson,

00:40:22.000 | right?

00:40:23.000 | It's fine.

00:40:24.000 | And then he came back

00:40:25.000 | and he was like 6'6".

00:40:26.000 | And then he kept growing

00:40:27.000 | but that was over a summer.

00:40:28.000 | - Mm-hmm.

00:40:29.000 | - And it's like,

00:40:30.000 | oh,

00:40:31.000 | if you're a fine basketball player in 6'2",

00:40:32.000 | a fine basketball player in 6'6"

00:40:33.000 | is like a whole different situation.

00:40:34.000 | You're like,

00:40:35.000 | oh,

00:40:36.000 | now this is useful.

00:40:37.000 | Yeah,

00:40:38.000 | same with Jordan.

00:40:39.000 | He grew.

00:40:40.000 | - Yeah.

00:40:41.000 | - He was short

00:40:42.000 | and he didn't make the team

00:40:43.000 | as a freshman in high school

00:40:44.000 | and then he grew.

00:40:45.000 | He also got better

00:40:46.000 | but like he grew.

00:40:47.000 | It makes a big difference.

00:40:48.000 | Ryan,

00:40:49.000 | I don't think that's what you're doing

00:40:50.000 | though with high growth kids

00:40:51.000 | but it's interesting to think about.

00:40:52.000 | So,

00:40:53.000 | this is a common,

00:40:54.000 | it's a common issue,

00:40:55.000 | right?

00:40:56.000 | So,

00:40:57.000 | if you don't know

00:40:58.000 | the first mountain,

00:40:59.000 | second mountain,

00:41:00.000 | that comes from David Brooks' book

00:41:01.000 | The Second Mountain

00:41:02.000 | where part of your adult life

00:41:03.000 | is focused on what he calls

00:41:04.000 | first mountain goals

00:41:05.000 | which are professional aspirations.

00:41:06.000 | It's success.

00:41:07.000 | It's distinction standing out

00:41:09.000 | and he says

00:41:10.000 | there's going to be a point,

00:41:11.000 | at some point,

00:41:12.000 | you're going to move beyond

00:41:13.000 | that first mountain

00:41:14.000 | and Brooks talks about

00:41:15.000 | you fall into a valley

00:41:16.000 | between the first and second mountain

00:41:17.000 | where you're going to have some despair

00:41:20.000 | and then you realize,

00:41:21.000 | oh,

00:41:22.000 | what really matters

00:41:23.000 | are these second mountain values

00:41:24.000 | which as he talks about

00:41:25.000 | are the types of things

00:41:26.000 | people will talk about

00:41:27.000 | in your eulogy.

00:41:28.000 | In your eulogy,

00:41:29.000 | no one is going to say,

00:41:30.000 | hey,

00:41:31.000 | you know,

00:41:32.000 | we delivered quarter over quarter growth,

00:41:33.000 | you know,

00:41:34.000 | for fiscal year 2020

00:41:37.000 | to the fiscal year,

00:41:38.000 | you know,

00:41:39.000 | 2030 or whatever.

00:41:40.000 | Like,

00:41:41.000 | that's not going to be

00:41:42.000 | what they talk about

00:41:43.000 | in your eulogy.

00:41:44.000 | It's going to be

00:41:45.000 | this was a dependable person.

00:41:46.000 | He was there for you.

00:41:47.000 | He was like a leader

00:41:48.000 | in our community

00:41:49.000 | and Brooks says

00:41:50.000 | as you get older,

00:41:51.000 | the second mountain values

00:41:52.000 | become more important

00:41:53.000 | and that you need to sort of

00:41:54.000 | shift more towards them.

00:41:55.000 | You've done,

00:41:56.000 | and Brooks is writing largely

00:41:57.000 | for high achieving upper middle class

00:41:58.000 | knowledge workers

00:41:59.000 | which is like what Brooks is

00:42:00.000 | talking about

00:42:01.000 | when he went through

00:42:02.000 | and Ryan,

00:42:03.000 | it sounds like you as well.

00:42:04.000 | So that's what he's talking about

00:42:05.000 | these second mountain values.

00:42:06.000 | It's hard to make that shift,

00:42:07.000 | right,

00:42:08.000 | in part because

00:42:09.000 | the first round values

00:42:10.000 | give you something

00:42:11.000 | concrete to do

00:42:12.000 | and you can succeed at it

00:42:13.000 | and they give you resources

00:42:14.000 | and they can dominate

00:42:15.000 | your whole life.

00:42:16.000 | Often the people

00:42:17.000 | that Brooks talks about

00:42:18.000 | who make this transition

00:42:19.000 | have some sort of

00:42:20.000 | inciting event.

00:42:21.000 | Like for Brooks,

00:42:22.000 | it was his divorce.

00:42:23.000 | So like often there's like

00:42:24.000 | some inciting event.

00:42:25.000 | Ryan,

00:42:26.000 | you might not have

00:42:27.000 | like had an exterior event yet.

00:42:28.000 | You're just noticing

00:42:29.000 | this is a shift

00:42:30.000 | that you're leaning towards.

00:42:31.000 | So it's going to be

00:42:32.000 | a more gradual transition.

00:42:34.000 | A couple of things

00:42:35.000 | I would recommend.

00:42:37.000 | Do lifestyle centric planning.

00:42:39.000 | Brooks leaves this out

00:42:40.000 | but I'm going to put it in.

00:42:41.000 | Do lifestyle centric planning

00:42:43.000 | with second mountain values

00:42:45.000 | that resonate with you in mind.

00:42:46.000 | So what do I want my life

00:42:47.000 | to actually be like

00:42:48.000 | five years from now

00:42:49.000 | day to day?

00:42:50.000 | Like where am I?

00:42:51.000 | Where am I going?

00:42:52.000 | What type of place do I live?

00:42:53.000 | Am I at an office or not?

00:42:54.000 | Like what's going on

00:42:55.000 | with my older kids at this point?

00:42:56.000 | How is my time spent?

00:42:57.000 | Am I, you know,

00:42:58.000 | walking through the woods

00:42:59.000 | or am I, you know,

00:43:01.000 | in a golf club?

00:43:02.000 | Like I don't know.

00:43:03.000 | You're feeling it.

00:43:04.000 | What is my life

00:43:05.000 | actually feel like?

00:43:07.000 | And make sure

00:43:08.000 | the second mountain values

00:43:09.000 | that resonate

00:43:10.000 | are in this image.

00:43:11.000 | And then do the straight up

00:43:12.000 | lifestyle centric planning work

00:43:14.000 | of let me work backwards

00:43:15.000 | from that.

00:43:16.000 | How do I steer?

00:43:17.000 | Like what are the obstacles

00:43:18.000 | and opportunities

00:43:19.000 | and how do I steer towards that?

00:43:21.000 | So like you have to be

00:43:22.000 | probably more systematic

00:43:23.000 | about this

00:43:24.000 | than you started this.

00:43:25.000 | Like I'm looking at your question.

00:43:26.000 | You started this.

00:43:27.000 | Like you wrote out roles

00:43:29.000 | and you're trying to think

00:43:30.000 | like what you want to do

00:43:31.000 | in your life.

00:43:32.000 | You're adding roles

00:43:33.000 | probably like leader

00:43:34.000 | and community member

00:43:35.000 | that you wanted to make

00:43:36.000 | more important.

00:43:37.000 | But the question is

00:43:38.000 | how you do that.

00:43:39.000 | And that's where lifestyle

00:43:40.000 | centric planning comes in.

00:43:41.000 | Because you're not just saying

00:43:42.000 | I want to be more of a leader.

00:43:43.000 | You have like a specific part

00:43:44.000 | of your image.

00:43:45.000 | You know,

00:43:46.000 | I'm involved

00:43:47.000 | in like the board

00:43:48.000 | at my community

00:43:49.000 | and like really there

00:43:50.000 | and I'm at a meeting

00:43:51.000 | and we're trying to figure

00:43:52.000 | something out

00:43:53.000 | and people turn to me

00:43:54.000 | and I'm like

00:43:55.000 | thickly enmeshed

00:43:56.000 | with, you know,

00:43:57.000 | some organization.

00:43:58.000 | You have a more concrete image

00:43:59.000 | of what that means.

00:44:00.000 | And now you're working backwards

00:44:01.000 | from something more concrete.

00:44:02.000 | The whole lifestyle centric

00:44:03.000 | planning methodology

00:44:04.000 | is all about obstacles

00:44:05.000 | and opportunities.

00:44:06.000 | Leveraging the opportunities

00:44:07.000 | you have

00:44:08.000 | to help you get closer

00:44:09.000 | and really identifying

00:44:10.000 | the obstacles

00:44:11.000 | and saying

00:44:12.000 | how do I get rid of those

00:44:13.000 | or circumvent them.

00:44:14.000 | This is probably

00:44:15.000 | where your current work

00:44:16.000 | which is being driven

00:44:17.000 | by these first mountain values.

00:44:18.000 | This is where your current work

00:44:19.000 | will probably come up

00:44:20.000 | as an obstacle.

00:44:21.000 | And in this exercise

00:44:22.000 | is where you're going to

00:44:23.000 | start thinking about

00:44:24.000 | well how do I reconfigure

00:44:25.000 | this work

00:44:26.000 | in a way that

00:44:27.000 | allows me to

00:44:28.000 | get to these other parts

00:44:29.000 | of my lifestyle vision.

00:44:30.000 | So ultimately

00:44:31.000 | it's going to be changing

00:44:32.000 | some details of your work

00:44:33.000 | in the second half

00:44:34.000 | of your working life.

00:44:35.000 | But you got to work backwards

00:44:36.000 | from that lifestyle centric planning.

00:44:37.000 | You can't just abstractly say

00:44:38.000 | this role or value

00:44:39.000 | is important to me.

00:44:40.000 | Let me just try to do more

00:44:41.000 | of that in my life.

00:44:42.000 | It's much more difficult than that.

00:44:43.000 | You also have to assume

00:44:44.000 | it's going to take a while.

00:44:45.000 | The path between

00:44:46.000 | the mountains is long.

00:44:47.000 | And you might go

00:44:48.000 | into a deep valley

00:44:49.000 | where you have

00:44:50.000 | an inciting event

00:44:51.000 | like a divorce

00:44:52.000 | or a health scare

00:44:53.000 | or maybe it's

00:44:54.000 | just not as nice

00:44:55.000 | through a meadow.

00:44:56.000 | It's not dark

00:44:57.000 | but it's still going to be

00:44:58.000 | meandering and long.

00:44:59.000 | So you have a vision.

00:45:00.000 | You work towards it.

00:45:01.000 | You edit.

00:45:02.000 | You work towards it.

00:45:03.000 | You edit.

00:45:04.000 | You work towards it.

00:45:05.000 | But you're beginning

00:45:06.000 | to turn your eyes

00:45:07.000 | towards that second mountain.

00:45:08.000 | And there will be changes.

00:45:09.000 | The only other thing

00:45:10.000 | I would recommend is

00:45:11.000 | if you've read Brooks's book

00:45:12.000 | also read Richard Rohr's book

00:45:13.000 | Falling Upward.

00:45:14.000 | It's more explicitly religious

00:45:15.000 | but it's the book

00:45:16.000 | that David Brooks

00:45:17.000 | based the second mountain on.

00:45:18.760 | So if you want to get

00:45:19.760 | to the core ideas

00:45:20.760 | but sort of stripped

00:45:21.760 | of a Brooksian

00:45:22.760 | upper middle class

00:45:23.760 | worker veneer

00:45:24.760 | like let me just get

00:45:25.760 | to the core ideas

00:45:26.760 | without that piece.

00:45:27.760 | That's helpful

00:45:28.760 | for a lot of people

00:45:29.760 | to see it in a more

00:45:30.760 | purified form.

00:45:31.760 | So check out

00:45:32.760 | Richard Rohr's book

00:45:33.760 | R-O-H-R

00:45:34.760 | Falling Upward.

00:45:35.760 | All right.

00:45:36.760 | What do we got next?

00:45:37.760 | Next question

00:45:38.760 | is from Rebecca.

00:45:39.760 | I often find myself

00:45:40.760 | unable to make

00:45:41.760 | meaningful progress

00:45:42.760 | with organizing

00:45:43.760 | my thoughts and projects

00:45:44.760 | given the volume

00:45:45.760 | of the past materials

00:45:46.760 | I have.

00:45:47.760 | What strategies

00:45:48.760 | could help me move

00:45:49.760 | past this paralysis

00:45:50.760 | and build momentum

00:45:51.760 | towards fully getting

00:45:52.760 | things moving

00:45:53.760 | smoothly?

00:45:54.760 | Well,

00:45:55.760 | you know,

00:45:56.760 | I'm not a big believer

00:45:57.760 | in complicated

00:45:58.760 | information systems.

00:45:59.760 | I'm not a big believer

00:46:01.760 | in what is holding you

00:46:02.760 | back from a project

00:46:03.760 | is like you can't

00:46:04.760 | quite get the right

00:46:05.760 | information together

00:46:06.760 | to make progress.

00:46:07.760 | I think in general

00:46:08.760 | people should work

00:46:09.760 | on fewer big projects.

00:46:10.760 | They should wait

00:46:11.760 | until they have an idea

00:46:12.760 | that won't leave them alone

00:46:13.760 | and then act on it.

00:46:14.760 | And then once

00:46:15.760 | they're acting on it

00:46:16.760 | put their perfectionism

00:46:17.760 | aside and say great

00:46:18.760 | I'm going to follow this

00:46:19.760 | through to the end

00:46:20.760 | to see what happens

00:46:21.760 | in the end.

00:46:22.760 | So if you're exposing

00:46:23.760 | yourself to a lot

00:46:24.760 | of information,

00:46:25.760 | you're reading things,

00:46:26.760 | you have ideas,

00:46:27.760 | wait to see what

00:46:28.760 | like sticks with you.

00:46:29.760 | Like, yeah,

00:46:30.760 | I keep having this idea

00:46:31.760 | about something we could

00:46:32.760 | do at our business.

00:46:33.760 | It's come up a few times now.

00:46:34.760 | I mentioned this to someone.

00:46:35.760 | They thought it was a good idea.

00:46:36.760 | Okay, great.

00:46:37.760 | Let's go do that.

00:46:38.760 | Or I've got this

00:46:39.760 | like personal project.

00:46:40.760 | I don't know.

00:46:41.760 | I keep seeing these

00:46:42.760 | Instagram stories

00:46:43.760 | about people with

00:46:44.760 | their such and such

00:46:45.760 | like, I don't know,

00:46:46.760 | workshop and it's

00:46:47.760 | really appealing to me.

00:46:48.760 | I keep coming back to that.

00:46:49.760 | Okay, great.

00:46:50.760 | Let's do that.

00:46:51.760 | Let's see what sticks

00:46:52.760 | on that project.

00:46:53.760 | So just wait till something

00:46:54.760 | sticks with you

00:46:55.760 | and then see it through

00:46:56.760 | just because it's interesting

00:46:57.760 | to see it through.

00:46:58.760 | Don't overemphasize

00:46:59.760 | the like I got to

00:47:00.760 | get all my information right.

00:47:01.760 | Don't overemphasize

00:47:02.760 | this idea of there's

00:47:03.760 | a right project to do

00:47:04.760 | and if you choose

00:47:05.760 | the wrong one,

00:47:06.760 | you're in trouble.

00:47:07.760 | Just see what sticks,

00:47:08.760 | take action,

00:47:09.760 | follow it through,

00:47:10.760 | interesting things

00:47:11.760 | will happen, repeat.

00:47:12.760 | Don't overcomplicate it.

00:47:13.760 | Find value in the actual

00:47:14.760 | like execution of things

00:47:15.760 | because it's kind of fun.

00:47:16.760 | If this one doesn't

00:47:17.760 | work out,

00:47:18.760 | the next one will.

00:47:19.760 | All that together

00:47:20.760 | should stop

00:47:21.760 | some of this

00:47:22.760 | sense of paralysis.

00:47:23.760 | I'm like that

00:47:24.760 | with books, Jesse.

00:47:25.760 | I'm like,

00:47:26.760 | I read a lot of stuff.

00:47:27.760 | I think a lot of stuff.

00:47:28.760 | How do I come

00:47:29.760 | with a book idea?

00:47:30.760 | It's just something

00:47:31.760 | sticks with me

00:47:32.760 | for a long time

00:47:33.760 | and I just mull it.

00:47:34.760 | I come back to it.

00:47:35.760 | I have other ideas.

00:47:36.760 | I come back to it

00:47:37.760 | and mull other things.

00:47:38.760 | If something has stuck

00:47:39.760 | with me for a while,

00:47:40.760 | it's very informal.

00:47:41.760 | I'm like, you know what?

00:47:42.760 | That could be a book

00:47:43.760 | and then I start seriously

00:47:44.760 | like talking to my circle

00:47:45.760 | about it.

00:47:46.760 | I don't have complicated

00:47:47.760 | information tracking systems.

00:47:48.760 | I don't have to emerge

00:47:49.760 | from some sort of

00:47:50.760 | like content semantic graph

00:47:51.760 | that's on some

00:47:52.760 | complicated program.

00:47:53.760 | It's just like an idea

00:47:54.760 | that sticks with me

00:47:55.760 | and my gut says

00:47:56.760 | this feels timely.

00:47:57.760 | That's all it is.

00:47:58.760 | All right.

00:47:59.760 | What do we got next?

00:48:00.760 | We have our corner.

00:48:01.760 | Our slow productivity corner.

00:48:02.760 | Let's hear that theme music.

00:48:03.760 | This is the segment

00:48:04.760 | where we tackle a question

00:48:05.760 | relevant to my last book,

00:48:06.760 | Slow Productivity,

00:48:07.760 | The Lost Art of Accomplishment

00:48:08.760 | Without Productivity.

00:48:09.760 | This is a segment

00:48:10.760 | where we tackle

00:48:11.760 | a question relevant

00:48:12.760 | to my last book,

00:48:13.760 | Slow Productivity,

00:48:14.760 | The Lost Art of Accomplishment

00:48:15.760 | Without Productivity.

00:48:16.760 | This is a segment

00:48:17.760 | where we tackle

00:48:18.760 | a question relevant

00:48:19.760 | to my last book,

00:48:20.760 | Slow Productivity,

00:48:21.760 | The Lost Art of Accomplishment

00:48:22.760 | Without Productivity.

00:48:23.760 | All right, Jesse,

00:48:24.760 | what is our

00:48:25.760 | Slow Productivity corner

00:48:26.760 | question of the week?

00:48:27.760 | Without burnout.

00:48:28.760 | What did I say?

00:48:29.760 | Without productivity.

00:48:30.760 | I said the lost

00:48:31.760 | art of accomplishment

00:48:32.760 | without productivity.

00:48:33.760 | That could actually

00:48:34.760 | kind of be

00:48:35.760 | that could be your next book.

00:48:36.760 | That could work.

00:48:37.760 | The first chapter

00:48:38.760 | is like how to steal.

00:48:39.760 | Steal ideas from people

00:48:41.760 | smarter.

00:48:42.760 | I wasn't going

00:48:43.760 | to say anything,

00:48:44.760 | but then I was

00:48:45.760 | the fans were probably

00:48:46.760 | overloaded something

00:48:47.760 | and then we have

00:48:48.760 | to distract them.

00:48:49.760 | We have to distract them.

00:48:50.760 | All right.

00:48:51.760 | Brandon Sanderson

00:48:52.760 | wrote name of the win.

00:48:53.760 | Go.

00:48:54.760 | Somebody emailed me

00:48:55.760 | about that the other day.

00:48:56.760 | He's like,

00:48:57.760 | do you know that?

00:48:58.760 | I was like,

00:48:59.760 | oh, it's actually a joke.

00:49:00.760 | That's how we distract you

00:49:01.760 | when we make other mistakes.

00:49:02.760 | All right.

00:49:03.760 | What is our actual

00:49:04.760 | Slow Productivity

00:49:05.760 | question of the day?

00:49:06.760 | All right.

00:49:07.760 | It's from

00:49:08.760 | Seeking Slow Success.

00:49:09.760 | I work in admin

00:49:10.760 | at a large university.

00:49:11.760 | I'm struggling

00:49:12.760 | with the roles,

00:49:13.760 | many hats,

00:49:14.760 | communications,

00:49:15.760 | advising,

00:49:16.760 | advising,

00:49:17.760 | event planning,

00:49:18.760 | financial,

00:49:19.760 | all sorts of stuff.

00:49:20.760 | It's also in the context

00:49:21.760 | of a thick bureaucratic process.

00:49:23.760 | I have heard

00:49:24.760 | that this type of juggling

00:49:25.760 | is just typical

00:49:26.760 | for this role

00:49:27.760 | and that we're understaffed.

00:49:28.760 | What should I do?

00:49:29.760 | Well,

00:49:30.760 | this is where

00:49:31.760 | the book Slow Productivity

00:49:32.760 | in your circumstance

00:49:34.760 | might be more effective

00:49:35.760 | for understanding

00:49:36.760 | why you're unhappy

00:49:37.760 | than it will be

00:49:38.760 | for helping you become happier.

00:49:39.760 | Let me explain

00:49:40.760 | what I mean by that.

00:49:41.760 | A core idea

00:49:42.760 | in that book,

00:49:43.760 | which really tries

00:49:44.760 | to deconstruct

00:49:45.760 | how the way

00:49:46.760 | we currently work

00:49:47.760 | in knowledge work,

00:49:48.760 | why it doesn't work.

00:49:49.760 | A core idea in that book

00:49:50.760 | is what we talked about

00:49:51.760 | in the deep dive,

00:49:52.760 | which is the notion

00:49:53.760 | of overhead tax, right?

00:49:54.760 | Everything that you're working on,

00:49:56.760 | every process

00:49:57.760 | that you're responsible for,

00:49:58.760 | every task or project

00:49:59.760 | that's undergoing,

00:50:00.760 | generates its own overhead

00:50:01.760 | of emails and meetings

00:50:02.760 | and just cognitive cycles.

00:50:03.760 | I have to think about this.

00:50:05.760 | The more of these you have,

00:50:07.760 | the more of that overhead you have,

00:50:08.760 | the more of your cognitive cycles

00:50:09.760 | are taken up,

00:50:10.760 | the more of your day

00:50:11.760 | then becomes

00:50:12.760 | like servicing projects.

00:50:14.760 | Now, when this gets really bad

00:50:16.760 | is when these various projects

00:50:18.760 | exist in different

00:50:19.760 | cognitive contexts.

00:50:20.760 | So to switch

00:50:21.760 | from one to the other,

00:50:22.760 | you have to completely

00:50:23.760 | switch your mindset.

00:50:24.760 | So when you're switching

00:50:25.760 | from finances and development

00:50:26.760 | to academic and staff

00:50:27.760 | over to facilities,

00:50:28.760 | each of these

00:50:29.760 | is a fully different context.

00:50:30.760 | And so when you have

00:50:31.760 | a lot of things going on

00:50:32.760 | in a lot of topics,

00:50:33.760 | you have all these different

00:50:34.760 | emails and meetings

00:50:35.760 | you have to do.

00:50:36.760 | You're constantly

00:50:37.760 | switching contexts.

00:50:38.760 | That is exhausting.

00:50:39.760 | We're not wired for it.

00:50:40.760 | It makes us miserable.

00:50:41.760 | So I can validate

00:50:42.760 | why you're not feeling good

00:50:44.760 | about this position.

00:50:46.760 | Now, some people

00:50:48.760 | react worse than others

00:50:50.760 | to this overhead taxing

00:50:52.760 | out of control

00:50:53.760 | and to all this

00:50:54.760 | context shifting.

00:50:55.760 | The most successful

00:50:56.760 | high up

00:50:57.760 | university admins

00:50:58.760 | that I know

00:51:00.760 | just are naturally

00:51:02.760 | they're okay with it.

00:51:04.760 | Like, this is what I do.

00:51:05.760 | In fact,

00:51:06.760 | usually it's because

00:51:07.760 | they take pride.

00:51:08.760 | And I switch from this

00:51:10.760 | to here to here.

00:51:11.760 | And I find the right

00:51:12.760 | thing to push

00:51:13.760 | and the right button.

00:51:14.760 | And how do I help

00:51:15.760 | this person here?

00:51:16.760 | How do I move

00:51:17.760 | this information here?

00:51:18.760 | It's like a game.

00:51:19.760 | They see it like

00:51:20.760 | an orchestra conductor

00:51:21.760 | and you're trying to keep

00:51:22.760 | these different things moving.

00:51:23.760 | And some people can

00:51:24.760 | get enough pleasure

00:51:25.760 | out of that challenge

00:51:26.760 | that they can counteract

00:51:27.760 | the cognitive fatigue

00:51:28.760 | of having to do

00:51:29.760 | all that context switching.

00:51:30.760 | Other people just feel

00:51:31.760 | the fatigue

00:51:32.760 | of the context switching.

00:51:33.760 | They're like,

00:51:34.760 | this is terrible.

00:51:35.760 | I'm in that ladder camp.

00:51:36.760 | You put me in a high up

00:51:37.760 | administrative position

00:51:38.760 | at a university.

00:51:39.760 | That university

00:51:40.760 | is going out of business.

00:51:41.760 | This is terrible.

00:51:43.760 | I can't keep

00:51:44.760 | switching between these things.

00:51:45.760 | You know what?

00:51:46.760 | I would rather,

00:51:47.760 | I know this is urgent.

00:51:49.760 | Like, we're not going

00:51:50.760 | to have water

00:51:51.760 | in the east side of campus.

00:51:52.760 | I just think we're not

00:51:53.760 | going to have water

00:51:54.760 | on the east side of campus.

00:51:55.760 | I can't think about

00:51:56.760 | all this stuff anymore.

00:51:57.760 | This is crazy.

00:51:58.760 | I got to go do deep work.

00:51:59.760 | Other people can see

00:52:00.760 | it as a challenge.

00:52:01.760 | So if you're like me,

00:52:02.760 | self productivity will explain

00:52:03.760 | why you're having a challenge.

00:52:04.760 | I think some of these

00:52:05.760 | high level admin positions,

00:52:06.760 | that's the position.

00:52:07.760 | That's what they're hiring for.

00:52:08.760 | That you're someone

00:52:09.760 | who can oversee

00:52:10.760 | a complicated array

00:52:11.760 | of different things

00:52:12.760 | and try to keep

00:52:13.760 | all those plates spinning.

00:52:14.760 | If this doesn't work

00:52:15.760 | well with you,

00:52:16.760 | it might be a time

00:52:17.760 | to think about

00:52:18.760 | how do I take that

00:52:19.760 | career capital

00:52:20.760 | and take it somewhere

00:52:21.760 | that's going to work

00:52:22.760 | better for me.

00:52:23.760 | But the key here,

00:52:24.760 | if you're doing that,

00:52:25.760 | is to figure out

00:52:26.760 | what better means.

00:52:27.760 | And that's why

00:52:28.760 | you need to understand

00:52:29.760 | this overhead tax issue,

00:52:30.760 | too many concurrent projects,

00:52:31.760 | that that is a problem.

00:52:32.760 | That's why you're unhappy.

00:52:33.760 | So you know if you're looking

00:52:34.760 | to do something else

00:52:35.760 | that takes your career capitals

00:52:36.760 | like a horizontal move,

00:52:37.760 | you know what

00:52:38.760 | you're optimizing for.

00:52:40.760 | Minimize the number

00:52:41.760 | of concurrent things happening

00:52:42.760 | so you don't have

00:52:43.760 | so much context shifting

00:52:44.760 | in overhead tax.

00:52:46.760 | We often don't realize

00:52:47.760 | that's what's making us

00:52:48.760 | unhappy about jobs.

00:52:49.760 | And when people are

00:52:50.760 | in that situation,

00:52:51.760 | we don't know that's why

00:52:52.760 | we're so exhausted,

00:52:53.760 | that it's the overhead tax.

00:52:54.760 | And so we start looking

00:52:55.760 | for other reasons

00:52:56.760 | that seem more obvious

00:52:57.760 | or proximate.

00:52:58.760 | It's like, well,

00:52:59.760 | maybe the bosses are bad

00:53:00.760 | or the system is stupid.

00:53:01.760 | And so then you shift

00:53:02.760 | and you make these ineffectual

00:53:03.760 | high overhead shifts

00:53:04.760 | to another job

00:53:05.760 | that has just as much

00:53:06.760 | overhead tax,

00:53:07.760 | but you convince yourself

00:53:08.760 | it was the people

00:53:09.760 | and the broken processes

00:53:10.760 | and that's why you're unhappy.

00:53:11.760 | And you go to the other place

00:53:12.760 | and you're still unhappy

00:53:13.760 | because, no,

00:53:14.760 | the problem was you're doing

00:53:15.760 | 15 things at once

00:53:16.760 | and your brain was melting.

00:53:17.760 | So it's useful to know

00:53:18.760 | that's a real problem.

00:53:19.760 | And I think just pointing out

00:53:20.760 | overhead tax is a problem.

00:53:21.760 | Too many concurrent tasks

00:53:22.760 | is a problem.

00:53:23.760 | And I'm looking for jobs,

00:53:24.760 | I'm evaluating them

00:53:25.760 | on what they're going to do

00:53:26.760 | with that type

00:53:27.760 | of concurrent tasks.

00:53:28.760 | Just recognizing

00:53:29.760 | that's a problem

00:53:30.760 | could improve a lot of jobs.

00:53:31.760 | But when you don't recognize

00:53:32.760 | something is a problem,

00:53:33.760 | you focus on the other stuff.

00:53:35.760 | It's going to be the perks

00:53:36.760 | or the benefits

00:53:37.760 | or the,

00:53:38.760 | I call it faux autonomy.

00:53:39.760 | Like, yeah,

00:53:40.760 | you have a lot of autonomy

00:53:41.760 | in terms of how

00:53:42.760 | you spend your time,

00:53:43.760 | but not in terms

00:53:44.760 | of your workload.

00:53:45.760 | So you really don't have

00:53:46.760 | any autonomy

00:53:47.760 | in how you spend your time

00:53:48.760 | because you're trying

00:53:49.760 | to service 15 projects

00:53:50.760 | so it's all overhead tax

00:53:51.760 | all day.

00:53:52.760 | So, yeah,

00:53:53.760 | we don't clock your hours.

00:53:54.760 | You can work remote

00:53:55.760 | if you want.

00:53:56.760 | But also, who cares?

00:53:57.760 | You have to be in your inbox

00:53:58.760 | 15 hours a day

00:53:59.760 | or things aren't going

00:54:00.760 | to work out.

00:54:01.760 | So I don't think

00:54:02.760 | for your position,

00:54:03.760 | little things will help.

00:54:04.760 | For keeping your overhead lower

00:54:05.760 | and trying to differentiate

00:54:06.760 | active and non-active projects.

00:54:07.760 | But a lot of this,

00:54:08.760 | at that level

00:54:09.760 | for this type of job,

00:54:10.760 | a lot of that advice

00:54:11.760 | isn't going to work

00:54:12.760 | because of the nature

00:54:13.760 | of that job.

00:54:14.760 | So at least knowing

00:54:15.760 | what it is you don't like

00:54:16.760 | about the job

00:54:17.760 | is going to help you

00:54:18.760 | understand how to fix it,

00:54:19.760 | what it is actually

00:54:20.760 | that you want to fix.

00:54:21.760 | You've got to figure out

00:54:22.760 | the problem

00:54:23.760 | before you can really fix it.

00:54:24.760 | So it's,

00:54:25.760 | I don't know,

00:54:26.760 | I believe that, Jesse.

00:54:27.760 | It's like sometimes

00:54:28.760 | knowing why you're unhappy

00:54:29.760 | unless you fix it.

00:54:30.760 | Like, the biggest problem

00:54:31.760 | is knowing

00:54:32.760 | why you're unhappy

00:54:33.760 | unless you fix it.

00:54:34.760 | And like the biggest problem

00:54:35.760 | is unhappy people

00:54:36.760 | who don't know

00:54:37.760 | why they're unhappy

00:54:38.760 | because then you start

00:54:39.760 | just doing random stuff.

00:54:40.760 | Yeah.

00:54:41.760 | And it leaves some problems.

00:54:42.760 | But what we can be happy about

00:54:43.760 | is hearing the theme music

00:54:44.760 | one more time.

00:54:45.760 | All right.

00:54:46.760 | Do we have a call this week?

00:54:47.760 | We do.

00:54:48.760 | All right.

00:54:49.760 | Let's hear it.

00:54:50.760 | Hi, Cal.

00:54:51.760 | My name is Jorge

00:54:52.760 | and I have a question

00:54:53.760 | that really has to deal with

00:54:54.760 | being a good spouse.

00:54:55.760 | Like I said,

00:54:56.760 | being a good spouse

00:54:57.760 | is a lot of work.

00:54:58.760 | It's a lot of work

00:54:59.760 | and a lot of work

00:55:00.760 | and a lot of work

00:55:01.760 | to be a good spouse.

00:55:03.760 | The context is that

00:55:04.760 | my spouse is an interesting part of her life

00:55:07.760 | where one,

00:55:08.760 | she enjoyed most of her corporate life

00:55:10.760 | for the last 15 years.

00:55:12.760 | Two, we have a family

00:55:15.760 | with young kids

00:55:16.760 | where time with them

00:55:17.760 | is very, very precious

00:55:20.760 | before they become teenagers

00:55:21.760 | and start ignoring us.

00:55:23.760 | And three,

00:55:24.760 | she recently got laid off of her job.

00:55:26.760 | She is in the field of DEI,

00:55:29.760 | which is diversity, equity, inclusion,

00:55:30.760 | and navigating it

00:55:31.760 | has been very difficult.

00:55:32.760 | It's been a very hostile environment

00:55:34.760 | for that industry

00:55:35.760 | for the past 24 months or so.

00:55:37.760 | It's not like she works in a coal mine

00:55:40.760 | and all the mines are shutting down,

00:55:42.760 | but it can feel like that at times

00:55:45.760 | and she expresses that.

00:55:47.760 | She's been doing a lot of writing

00:55:49.760 | and starting to explore the idea

00:55:51.760 | of switching out of corporate life

00:55:52.760 | and doing more with crafts,

00:55:54.760 | cooking, general artistic things,

00:55:56.760 | and maybe even writing about those things.

00:55:59.760 | I support her.

00:56:00.760 | Initially, I recommended her the book

00:56:03.760 | "Slow Productivity"

00:56:04.760 | as she faced this hiccup in her career

00:56:06.760 | and ways to explore doing new work.

00:56:08.760 | And then as she started talking

00:56:09.760 | about doing more artistic work

00:56:11.760 | and kind of make a transition,

00:56:13.760 | I suggested, "So good they can't ignore you."

00:56:16.760 | My question is,

00:56:17.760 | is there any approach I should be taking

00:56:19.760 | to support my spouse

00:56:20.760 | as they work through this period

00:56:22.760 | of life-based career planning?

00:56:24.760 | We are a family,

00:56:25.760 | can't do these things in a vacuum,

00:56:27.760 | and I want to be more than

00:56:29.760 | someone who just recommends books to her.

00:56:31.760 | I want to know how to best show up

00:56:33.760 | to be alongside her

00:56:35.760 | as she goes through life-based career planning,

00:56:38.760 | whether she knows it or not.

00:56:40.760 | Thank you.

00:56:42.760 | - Well, first of all,

00:56:43.760 | I like this approach of just give people my books.

00:56:45.760 | That's like a good catch-all strategy.

00:56:48.760 | That's going to be my answer for every question now.

00:56:50.760 | Well, how many of my books have you read

00:56:52.760 | or given the person?

00:56:53.760 | That'll solve the problem.

00:56:54.760 | Now, the actual real first thing is,

00:56:56.760 | first of all,

00:56:57.760 | it really stinks to get laid off.

00:56:58.760 | That's just emotionally hard.

00:57:00.760 | It's psychologically hard.

00:57:02.760 | It's financially hard.

00:57:03.760 | There's a lot of empathy here, right?

00:57:05.760 | None of that's easy,

00:57:07.760 | especially if you feel like your whole industry

00:57:09.760 | in which you have expertise,

00:57:11.760 | the whole industry is struggling.

00:57:12.760 | So it's not just my company had issues,

00:57:15.760 | but there's a bunch of other companies do this.

00:57:17.760 | So we'll start with that.

00:57:18.760 | It's just hard.

00:57:19.760 | So I'm glad you're recognizing that.

00:57:20.760 | That's hard.

00:57:21.760 | It's hard to get laid off,

00:57:22.760 | especially at that phase of life.

00:57:24.760 | So we'll start with that

00:57:25.760 | and not be too cheery optimistic.

00:57:28.760 | Everything's going to be fine immediately.

00:57:30.760 | The next thing I would say,

00:57:32.760 | and you picked this up in your call,

00:57:34.760 | so I'm going to underscore it.

00:57:35.760 | The next thing I would say is that

00:57:37.760 | when you have a family with kids,

00:57:40.760 | lifestyle-centric planning,

00:57:42.760 | the lifestyle you're planning

00:57:43.760 | is the full family's lifestyle.

00:57:46.760 | It's no longer what is my ideal lifestyle,

00:57:49.760 | what is your ideal lifestyle,

00:57:50.760 | and we're both going to try to do

00:57:52.760 | our own planning towards those ideal lifestyles.

00:57:54.760 | Because what's going to happen is

00:57:56.760 | when you're looking for obstacles and opportunities,

00:57:59.760 | the other person's opportunities

00:58:00.760 | might become an obstacle to you and vice versa.

00:58:02.760 | And then you get resentment

00:58:03.760 | or at least you get confusion.

00:58:04.760 | So I like what you said that we're a family.

00:58:06.760 | That is critical here.

00:58:08.760 | This is a good time.

00:58:09.760 | This disruption is a good time to say,

00:58:11.760 | what is our lifestyle-centric plan?

00:58:13.760 | And when you have young kids,

00:58:14.760 | you really should have three plans.

00:58:16.760 | That's the way my wife and I did it.

00:58:18.760 | What is our ideal lifestyle for the pre,

00:58:21.760 | we thought it was like the pre-elementary school period,

00:58:23.760 | the sort of the preschool and nanny period, right?

00:58:26.760 | And that was the period we were in

00:58:27.760 | when we were doing this initial planning.

00:58:29.760 | So, you know, given what we have now.

00:58:31.760 | Then we look ahead to like the elementary school period.

00:58:34.760 | You start to have young kids

00:58:36.760 | that are first, second, third grade or this or that.

00:58:39.760 | And then there's this third phase,

00:58:40.760 | this sort of in high school going off to college phase.

00:58:44.760 | And then there's a phase after that,

00:58:45.760 | but that seems so distant.

00:58:46.760 | You're like, we'll get to that later.

00:58:48.760 | And you say, what do we want our lifestyle to be like

00:58:51.760 | during those periods?

00:58:52.760 | Like, what is it?

00:58:53.760 | What's the vision we have?

00:58:54.760 | And people have all sorts of different visions of this.

00:58:55.760 | Some people envision my kids having like a real city,

00:58:59.760 | like urban upbringing and they're on the subways

00:59:01.760 | and we go, you know,

00:59:02.760 | take the subway to see the baseball game

00:59:04.760 | and going to blah, blah, blah.

00:59:06.760 | Other people see, man, I really want,

00:59:08.760 | when I'm thinking about my kid being in third grade,

00:59:10.760 | like I'm there, we pick him up from the bus stop.

00:59:13.760 | Like they're coming home from the bus stop

00:59:15.760 | and like, I'm there and give them snacks.

00:59:18.760 | And there's like people coming over.

00:59:20.760 | Like, I don't know, you get these visions.

00:59:21.760 | Like, what do I want it to be like?

00:59:24.760 | Then you work backwards from those.

00:59:25.760 | So you should have a vision for pre-elementary school,

00:59:27.760 | during elementary school,

00:59:28.760 | and then sort of like late junior high, high school,

00:59:30.760 | like what you want those to be like.

00:59:31.760 | That's what you're planning backwards from as a family.

00:59:35.760 | So it's not about individuals so much anymore.

00:59:39.760 | It's like, what's going to work with stress,

00:59:42.760 | finances, and the sort of flexibility or time required?

00:59:47.760 | Those are all really important.

00:59:49.760 | And then there's the bigger things like location.

00:59:52.760 | All of those factors matter for family-centric,

00:59:54.760 | lifestyle-centric plans.

00:59:56.760 | Like where do we want our stress?

00:59:58.760 | What's our time or flexibility constraints?

01:00:00.760 | Is it like we're walking the kids to school

01:00:01.760 | and picking them up?

01:00:02.760 | Or is it, you know, there's a nanny,

01:00:04.760 | but we're home in the evenings?

01:00:06.760 | Is it like, how is that?

01:00:07.760 | Are you figuring that out?

01:00:08.760 | The finances, we don't want to be stressed by money.

01:00:10.760 | So where do we want to be financially?

01:00:13.760 | We don't need to be farther than it,

01:00:15.760 | but like where's the place that's going to make us

01:00:16.760 | with the things we want to do with our family?

01:00:18.760 | Like where do we want to be financially?

01:00:19.760 | And like, what do we want the environment to be like?

01:00:21.760 | So location, like where we live.

01:00:23.760 | Schooling comes up too.

01:00:24.760 | Like what type of school do we want them to be going to?

01:00:26.760 | All of these factors go in.

01:00:28.760 | And then you're making a plan as a family,

01:00:29.760 | and then you figure out the right configuration

01:00:31.760 | to get that done.

01:00:32.760 | And this might require doing all sorts of like interesting

01:00:35.760 | hacking or arrangements with careers and jobs.

01:00:39.760 | Like, well, you got this skill.

01:00:40.760 | I have this.

01:00:41.760 | My skill is actually very flexible.

01:00:43.760 | Yours is less, but very high paying.

01:00:44.760 | So I could do mine kind of lesser hours.

01:00:48.760 | It's very flexible.

01:00:49.760 | I'm a writer or something like that.

01:00:51.760 | And that could then cover-- then I could be around

01:00:54.760 | to pick up the kids.

01:00:55.760 | But your job is-- you have to be in the office,

01:00:57.760 | but it makes a lot of money.

01:00:59.760 | And if you did that, but we went this path instead

01:01:01.760 | of that path, it's not going to be too bad.

01:01:02.760 | You begin to figure out these different kind

01:01:04.760 | of configurations.

01:01:05.760 | You have two people, two skill sets,

01:01:07.760 | two sets of career possibilities available,

01:01:09.760 | and you can start mixing and matching

01:01:10.760 | to figure out your vision for the whole family lifestyle.

01:01:14.760 | So that's what I would say is this is a time to start

01:01:16.760 | doing that planning together.

01:01:18.760 | And there are so many different paths that might come out.

01:01:22.760 | Like, OK, I'm going to take-- maybe your spouse takes

01:01:25.760 | a year off and then goes into this type of career over here,

01:01:28.760 | and you switch to this career.

01:01:29.760 | You move over here where it's much cheaper.

01:01:31.760 | And I don't know.

01:01:32.760 | I've seen everything.

01:01:34.760 | But you don't get to the cool, unique configurations

01:01:36.760 | unless you're doing the lifestyle-centric planning.

01:01:38.760 | So that's what I would say, family unit

01:01:40.760 | lifestyle-centric planning, three phases.

01:01:42.760 | It's actually pretty fun to do because you have

01:01:44.760 | a lot of possibilities.

01:01:45.760 | You're two very skilled people.

01:01:47.760 | You probably have a little financial flexibility.

01:01:49.760 | You have young kids, which is fun.

01:01:50.760 | You could figure out something pretty cool.

01:01:52.760 | I love going through this planning process.

01:01:54.760 | And we've been executing our plan pretty well.

01:01:57.760 | And it's unique, I would say.

01:02:00.760 | It's idiosyncratic.

01:02:02.760 | People don't really understand what I do for a living,

01:02:05.760 | and that's on purpose because there's all sorts of factors

01:02:08.760 | I get out of that in terms of flexibility and seasonality,

01:02:11.760 | et cetera.

01:02:12.760 | So it's fun.

01:02:13.760 | But do the planning as a family.

01:02:16.760 | And there might be sacrifices involved.

01:02:18.760 | This is not about making sure both of you

01:02:20.760 | have some sort of individual self-actualization

01:02:22.760 | to the highest extent.

01:02:24.760 | You kind of got off that train when you had a family.

01:02:26.760 | Family happy, that should be the goal.

01:02:29.760 | All right.

01:02:30.760 | We've got here a case study.

01:02:32.760 | These are where people write in to jesse@calnewport.com,

01:02:35.760 | and they share their experience putting the type of advice

01:02:38.760 | we talked about on the show into practice

01:02:40.760 | in their everyday life.

01:02:41.760 | This is a cool one from Erica.

01:02:43.760 | It's about commuting, which we mentioned in last week's show.

01:02:47.760 | We were talking about commuting when we were talking

01:02:49.760 | about remote work, so I thought this was an appropriate

01:02:52.760 | follow-up case study to last week's deep dive.

01:02:55.760 | All right.

01:02:56.760 | Erica says, "On episode 337," that was last week,

01:02:59.760 | "Cal mentioned the benefits of having a commute prior to

01:03:02.760 | and after work.

01:03:04.760 | I have developed a great appreciation for my daily

01:03:06.760 | commute routine to and from the office.

01:03:08.760 | I've also done a little bit of lifestyle-centric planning

01:03:10.760 | with my commute.

01:03:12.760 | I started working for a new company in 2024,

01:03:14.760 | which reduced my daily commute from over an hour each way

01:03:16.760 | to about 20 minutes each way.

01:03:18.760 | Secondly, I love driving as a hobby,

01:03:20.760 | so I found a job where I can drive into the office

01:03:22.760 | and have free parking.

01:03:24.760 | On the way to work, I drink my smoothie

01:03:26.760 | and listen to a podcast,

01:03:27.760 | Monday is always deep questions.

01:03:29.760 | Because I'm driving, I'm not using my phone

01:03:31.760 | and looking at social media,

01:03:32.760 | and so I'm able to get my mind cleared

01:03:34.760 | out of various nonsense and be ready for work.

01:03:37.760 | On the way home, I generally listen to music

01:03:40.760 | and either go to the gym or go window shopping,

01:03:42.760 | like trying out perfumes at various department

01:03:44.760 | and beauty stores.

01:03:45.760 | The commute going home allows me to let work melt away

01:03:48.760 | until the next morning.

01:03:49.760 | Note, I also used a time block planner

01:03:51.760 | and a Kanban board to help me feel set for the next day,

01:03:53.760 | but the commute is a great shutdown routine.

01:03:55.760 | When I work at home, I have in the past

01:03:57.760 | eschewed simulating a commute,

01:03:58.760 | so I feel cranky most of the day.

01:04:00.760 | So I'm trying to use my treadmill

01:04:02.760 | and my bicycle indoor trainer

01:04:03.760 | to do a little bit of exercise in the mornings.

01:04:05.760 | It helps some, but it's not the same as my morning drive.

01:04:09.760 | So I found that I work from home as little as possible

01:04:11.760 | and will even go into the office

01:04:13.760 | even if it's half a day of work.

01:04:15.760 | While changing locations and adjusting my commute

01:04:17.760 | is not the typical big idea

01:04:18.760 | lifestyle-centric planning changes some want,

01:04:20.760 | this small change has been a very large positive outcome.

01:04:23.760 | I feel that this one small change

01:04:25.760 | has helped my general mood and focus in a large way.

01:04:28.760 | Well, I like this idea that you do not need

01:04:31.760 | big ideas for lifestyle-centric career planning

01:04:33.760 | to have a big impact.

01:04:35.760 | In fact, I often make a contrast

01:04:38.760 | between lifestyle-centric planning and the alternative,

01:04:40.760 | which is the grand goal approach.

01:04:41.760 | The grand goal approach is like

01:04:42.760 | I have some big thing I go after

01:04:43.760 | and it makes my life magical from there on out.

01:04:46.760 | It almost never works.

01:04:48.760 | Lifestyle-centric career planning

01:04:49.760 | could lead to some things that in retrospect

01:04:51.760 | kind of look radical or interesting,

01:04:53.760 | but they don't have to.

01:04:55.760 | And a lot of the biggest impacts

01:04:56.760 | come from these smaller changes.

01:04:57.760 | So like in Erica's case,

01:04:59.760 | shifting to a job with a 20-minute commute,

01:05:03.760 | that was a key shift

01:05:06.760 | for the things she valued in her lifestyle-centric plan

01:05:09.760 | because the commute was actually helpful for her,

01:05:12.760 | but an hour-long commute is brutal.

01:05:14.760 | And so now it was like I can do this commute.

01:05:16.760 | It's long enough to be effective as a phase transition,

01:05:20.760 | but not so long that it's brutal.

01:05:22.760 | 20 minutes is not bad at all.

01:05:24.760 | Trust me, in Washington, D.C.,

01:05:26.760 | 20 minutes is roughly what it takes

01:05:27.760 | to get out of your neighborhood

01:05:30.760 | before you can even get to a major road.

01:05:32.760 | So 20 minutes is not bad at all,

01:05:33.760 | just long enough to change your mindset,

01:05:35.760 | but not so long that it's a problem.

01:05:37.760 | So now she could say let me just go to work then.

01:05:38.760 | I'll go to my office.

01:05:39.760 | I'll park.

01:05:40.760 | I have a transition.

01:05:41.760 | Work real hard.

01:05:42.760 | Shut down.

01:05:43.760 | Complete my time block planner.

01:05:44.760 | I've got things stored on my boards.

01:05:46.760 | I can let my mind go

01:05:47.760 | and enjoy that commute back,

01:05:48.760 | and I'm in a better mood.

01:05:49.760 | That's a great configuration.

01:05:51.760 | We forget this in a lot of the discussions

01:05:52.760 | about remote work that early on,

01:05:55.760 | a lot of the people who were arguing for remote work,

01:05:57.760 | it was in part because their commutes were really bad.

01:06:00.760 | It's a really long commute,

01:06:01.760 | and it's kind of grinding on me,

01:06:02.760 | so it'd be nice not to have to do that all the time.

01:06:04.760 | But there was a whole middle group of people

01:06:06.760 | where the commute's not so bad.

01:06:08.760 | They're not worried about ...

01:06:10.760 | They have a plan for the childcare.

01:06:11.760 | That's the other thing.

01:06:12.760 | They have a plan for my work ends two hours after school.

01:06:16.760 | That's figured out.

01:06:17.760 | And they actually like it.

01:06:19.760 | So you do the drive.

01:06:20.760 | You're there.

01:06:21.760 | When you're home, you're home,

01:06:22.760 | and you have some separation.

01:06:23.760 | So that's a great example

01:06:24.760 | of sort of small-scale changes from an LCP

01:06:27.760 | leading to big positive improvements.

01:06:31.760 | All right.

01:06:32.760 | We got our final segment coming up,

01:06:33.760 | where we'll talk about the books I read in January.

01:06:35.760 | But first, let's hear from another sponsor.

01:06:39.760 | So I think one of the harder things about raising a family,

01:06:41.760 | we were just talking about families on the call before,

01:06:44.760 | is food.

01:06:46.760 | It is difficult.

01:06:47.760 | You're trying to find food for your family

01:06:49.760 | that is healthy,

01:06:51.760 | that doesn't have junk in it,

01:06:53.760 | that's not like a bowl of Red Dye No. 5

01:06:56.760 | or whatever the thing is they just banned,

01:06:57.760 | and floating in the middle is a marshmallow,

01:06:59.760 | but also that your family will eat.

01:07:01.760 | I mean, this is so much of what

01:07:03.760 | my life and my wife's life has been about,

01:07:06.760 | is like as each kid goes through this certain age band,

01:07:08.760 | it's like, "We've got to find food they'll eat.

01:07:10.760 | It's got to be healthy."

01:07:11.760 | And then they'll decide that essentially all food is bad.

01:07:13.760 | And so food is something you think about all the time

01:07:15.760 | if you have a family.

01:07:17.760 | This is why I like Thrive Market.

01:07:21.760 | Thrive Market makes it simple to find trusted,

01:07:23.760 | family-friendly brands without spending hours

01:07:25.760 | in the grocery store.

01:07:27.760 | From snacks and school lunches to pantry staples,

01:07:29.760 | everything they offer is 100% non-GMO,

01:07:33.760 | and with their on-site filters,

01:07:35.760 | you can shop based on what matters most to your family.

01:07:37.760 | So maybe it's low sugar, or it's gluten-free,

01:07:39.760 | or it's organic, or it's high-protein options.

01:07:41.760 | All of this is just a click away.

01:07:44.760 | For example, the low-sugar filter is a great one

01:07:47.760 | on Thrive Market, because my kids,

01:07:50.760 | some days of the week, I mean,

01:07:52.760 | essentially their energy level is what you would get

01:07:55.760 | if you gave a lot of PCP to a hyperactive super criminal.

01:08:02.760 | They don't need more sugar.

01:08:04.760 | So you get these low-sugar options.

01:08:05.760 | Let me just look at the low-sugar options,

01:08:07.760 | because one of the things we buy a lot of is snacks,

01:08:09.760 | snacks for school and for when they come home.

01:08:11.760 | Great, I could just filter for those

01:08:12.760 | and select what it is I want.

01:08:14.760 | One feature that's really cool

01:08:16.760 | is the Healthy Swap Scanner in the Thrive Market app.

01:08:19.760 | Here's how it works.

01:08:20.760 | You scan a product that you're used to buying,

01:08:23.760 | like, oh, here's a thing I usually buy,

01:08:25.760 | and it will instantly recommend a cleaner,

01:08:27.760 | healthier alternative.

01:08:29.760 | This is also a game-changer, especially, again,

01:08:33.760 | the snack thing is where this is really a cool game-changer.

01:08:36.760 | All right, pretzels, sticks, or whatever.

01:08:39.760 | We kind of get these, snap it.

01:08:41.760 | Oh, here is, like, a salty snack that's no GMOs,

01:08:45.760 | no, like, less artificial stuff in it.

01:08:47.760 | So, again, it just makes it easy to get family food

01:08:51.760 | for your family that you can trust.

01:08:54.760 | Cool app, easy to use.

01:08:56.760 | It's delivered.

01:08:57.760 | That's great as well.

01:08:58.760 | You're not going to the supermarket and standing there.

01:09:00.760 | So I've become a big fan of Thrive Market.

01:09:03.760 | Thrive Market's Smart Cart feature

01:09:05.760 | takes the guesswork out of healthy shopping.

01:09:07.760 | When you create an account,

01:09:08.760 | they ask you about your family's needs

01:09:09.760 | and automatically build a cart full of cleaner versions

01:09:11.760 | of your favorite brands.

01:09:13.760 | I love this.

01:09:14.760 | So tired of going to the store.

01:09:15.760 | You can tweak it before checking out,

01:09:16.760 | but it's a great way to get started,

01:09:17.760 | especially if you're trying to phase out junk food.

01:09:21.760 | So if you're ready for a junk-free start to 2025,

01:09:24.760 | head to thrivemarket.com/deep

01:09:27.760 | and get 30% off your first order,

01:09:29.760 | plus a free $60 gift.

01:09:32.760 | It's a good promo, actually.

01:09:33.760 | That's T-H-R-I-V-E, market.com/deep,

01:09:37.760 | thrivemarket.com/deep.

01:09:40.760 | Also want to talk about our friends at Shopify.

01:09:44.760 | Look, I'm in the, what do you call it?

01:09:48.760 | Online world, a podcast, I have a newsletter.

01:09:51.760 | So I know a lot of people in the online world

01:09:54.760 | and the people I know who sell stuff online,

01:09:58.760 | they use Shopify.

01:10:00.760 | It is just the industry standard.

01:10:02.760 | It's a fantastic backend experience for you,

01:10:05.760 | the person selling.

01:10:06.760 | It's a fantastic shopping cart experience

01:10:08.760 | for the person buying.

01:10:09.760 | Their shopping carts have an incredible conversion rate.

01:10:12.760 | So you're not going to lose people at that final step.

01:10:16.760 | They go beyond online selling as well.

01:10:19.760 | They have point of sale technology.

01:10:21.760 | So now you have your store that's actually in real life.

01:10:26.760 | You Shopify can integrate and help you right there.

01:10:29.760 | I mean, it is a no brainer.

01:10:32.760 | If you're going to sell things,

01:10:34.760 | you need to be using Shopify.

01:10:37.760 | So you can upgrade your business

01:10:38.760 | and get the same checkout that so many people I know use

01:10:42.760 | when you use Shopify.

01:10:44.760 | Sign up for a $1 per month trial period

01:10:48.760 | at shopify.com/deep.

01:10:51.760 | Now you need to type that in all lowercase,

01:10:54.760 | but you go to shopify.com/deep

01:10:57.760 | to upgrade your selling today.

01:11:00.760 | That's shopify.com/deep.

01:11:04.760 | All right, let's move on to our final segment.

01:11:07.760 | Every month at the beginning of each month,

01:11:09.760 | I talk about the books I read the month before.

01:11:12.760 | As long time listeners know,

01:11:13.760 | my goal is to read five books a month.

01:11:16.760 | So this is our first episode of January or February rather.

01:11:19.760 | So I will talk about the books I read in January 2025.

01:11:23.760 | All right, I started with film appreciation book.

01:11:26.760 | I don't know if it was called "The Film Appreciation Book"

01:11:28.760 | or "Film Appreciation Book" by Jim Piper.

01:11:30.760 | I'm an amateur cinephile,

01:11:31.760 | so I like to randomly read sort of pseudo textbooks

01:11:34.760 | or books about movies.

01:11:35.760 | And this was like a, almost like a textbook, right?

01:11:38.760 | It just went through like a lot of different aspects of film

01:11:42.760 | and talked about how they mattered.

01:11:44.760 | I like this one because it had a lot of pictures and scenes.

01:11:46.760 | You could go on the YouTube and watch the scenes.

01:11:48.760 | They had pictures in the book.

01:11:49.760 | So when they're talking about different types of shots

01:11:51.760 | or different types of compositions,

01:11:52.760 | I really like being able to actually just see it.

01:11:54.760 | So it was fine.

01:11:55.760 | It's one of these like systematic books.

01:11:57.760 | You're just going to learn a lot of terminology

01:12:00.760 | and learn a lot, learn about like a lot of like stuff

01:12:02.760 | you should know if you want to know the lingo for film.

01:12:04.760 | So it was a good one.

01:12:05.760 | - A lot of your fans are interested in,

01:12:08.760 | because it's movie season,

01:12:09.760 | is your take on the films of this year?

01:12:13.760 | - We should do more film stuff.

01:12:15.760 | Last year, my wife and I watched all 10 Best Picture nominees.

01:12:19.760 | I don't know if we're going to do that this year.

01:12:21.760 | I've seen a bunch of them.

01:12:23.760 | - There's been requests.

01:12:25.760 | - I'm not super excited by,

01:12:28.760 | I'm trying to think what in the Best Picture nominations

01:12:31.760 | this year that I've been super excited about.

01:12:33.760 | - Mad Dog saw Dylan like four times.

01:12:35.760 | - Yeah, that was good.

01:12:36.760 | I saw it in the theater.

01:12:37.760 | Yeah, Complete Unknown was,

01:12:38.760 | I thought that was very good.

01:12:39.760 | That move, that for over two hour long movie,

01:12:42.760 | that thing rock and rolled in more ways than one.

01:12:45.760 | So that thing really moved.

01:12:46.760 | Chalamet was great.

01:12:48.760 | I liked the direction was very good.

01:12:51.760 | That director also did the Walk the Line,

01:12:54.760 | Johnny Cash, which was also very good.

01:12:58.760 | That's a favorite.

01:12:59.760 | Dune II I saw last fall, last spring,

01:13:03.760 | doing my book tour.

01:13:04.760 | So I was in Austin doing Ryan Holiday's podcast

01:13:07.760 | and Chris Williamson's podcast.

01:13:10.760 | I think those are the two I was doing.

01:13:11.760 | So I was in Austin and then one of them got canceled.

01:13:14.760 | I had an afternoon free

01:13:15.760 | and walked over to a cool indie theater in Austin

01:13:21.760 | and saw Dune II like right when it came out.

01:13:23.760 | That was cool.

01:13:24.760 | I enjoyed that.

01:13:25.760 | That was fun.

01:13:26.760 | So like that was pretty good.

01:13:27.760 | I saw Conclave recently.

01:13:28.760 | It was okay.

01:13:29.760 | - I saw that.

01:13:30.760 | - Yeah, I thought it was,

01:13:31.760 | I mean, I liked the high contrast cinematography.

01:13:32.760 | I thought it was like kind of beautifully shot.

01:13:33.760 | It was cool.

01:13:34.760 | It's based off a Richard Harris book.

01:13:36.760 | What else is out though?

01:13:38.760 | I've been hearing bad things about Amelia Perez.

01:13:40.760 | Like people just don't like it.

01:13:42.760 | - There's the one--

01:13:43.760 | - I watched it on Netflix though.

01:13:44.760 | So it's easy to see.

01:13:45.760 | I watched Substance with Demi Moore.

01:13:47.760 | My wife was like, I'm done with this.

01:13:49.760 | It's a body horror movie.

01:13:51.760 | She hates that type of stuff.

01:13:52.760 | You know, where it's like, that was good.

01:13:54.760 | I was liking that.

01:13:55.760 | - Who's supposed to win best actor

01:13:56.760 | other than if it's not Chalamet?

01:13:57.760 | - I don't know.

01:13:58.760 | I just read an article that said

01:13:59.760 | it's like everyone could win.

01:14:01.760 | - Yeah, it was the one guy, Brody and the other one.

01:14:04.760 | - Yeah, so Brutalist is still hard to,

01:14:06.760 | it's here in DC.

01:14:07.760 | So I should see it.

01:14:08.760 | It's three hours.

01:14:09.760 | - Yeah, there's an intermission.

01:14:11.760 | - Yeah, I know.

01:14:12.760 | - I haven't seen it.

01:14:13.760 | - I gotta get my back in better shape, I think,

01:14:15.760 | before I see The Brutalist.

01:14:16.760 | Or I have to wait till it comes.

01:14:17.760 | I'd love to see the,

01:14:18.760 | so last year I saw almost everything in the theater.

01:14:21.760 | And I loved it.

01:14:22.760 | I couldn't get everything.

01:14:23.760 | I saw almost everything.

01:14:24.760 | Brutalist I do want to see.

01:14:26.760 | And it is playing in a couple places here in DC.

01:14:28.760 | So I should see it.

01:14:29.760 | I like Brody.

01:14:30.760 | I don't know what else the other nominees were.

01:14:32.760 | - I don't know either.

01:14:33.760 | - Which is like a problem, right?

01:14:34.760 | That means it's not,

01:14:35.760 | it's not a super exciting year.

01:14:37.760 | But this was the year with less movies

01:14:38.760 | because of the strike.

01:14:39.760 | The after effect of the strike two years ago

01:14:41.760 | was the things not going in the pipeline

01:14:43.760 | then meant last year was

01:14:45.760 | just not as many movies were out.

01:14:47.760 | So I don't know.

01:14:48.760 | We'll see.

01:14:49.760 | Maybe I'll end up seeing more of them.

01:14:51.760 | All right, second book I read.

01:14:53.760 | I had originally read this years ago,

01:14:55.760 | but I went back and reread

01:14:56.760 | Rich Roll's memoir, Finding Ultra.

01:14:58.760 | He'd actually updated it.

01:15:00.760 | So I guess this is the newer version of it.

01:15:03.760 | It's just a cool story.

01:15:04.760 | People forget back when Rich Roll,

01:15:07.760 | whose show I've done twice now,

01:15:09.760 | I like Rich a lot.

01:15:10.760 | When he was coming up,

01:15:12.760 | this is what he was really known for.

01:15:14.760 | Like today he's known as like

01:15:16.760 | the wise old man of the podcast.

01:15:18.760 | I don't mean old.

01:15:19.760 | He's not that much older than me,

01:15:20.760 | much better shape.

01:15:21.760 | But you know,

01:15:22.760 | like he seems like an eminence

01:15:23.760 | in the podcasting world.

01:15:24.760 | But he was known for doing

01:15:26.760 | these crazy ultra athletic events.

01:15:28.760 | Like that was his thing was like,

01:15:30.760 | I'm going to do,

01:15:31.760 | he came out of nowhere

01:15:32.760 | and he started at the age of 40.

01:15:35.760 | At the age of 40.

01:15:36.760 | Now it's not quite fair

01:15:37.760 | because he was also like an Olympic hopeful

01:15:40.760 | D1 swimmer for Stanford.

01:15:42.760 | So he's got the genes

01:15:43.760 | and there was a part in his life

01:15:44.760 | where he was a fantastic athlete,

01:15:45.760 | but then he had a alcohol problem.

01:15:47.760 | And then that swimming fell apart,

01:15:49.760 | became a lawyer,

01:15:51.760 | finally had to get sober

01:15:53.760 | because of like the DUI,

01:15:55.760 | like he was going to get sent to jail.

01:15:56.760 | And finally like rehab stuck.

01:15:58.760 | So he put that addictive personality

01:16:01.760 | into eating junk food.

01:16:02.760 | So he was like in bad shape,

01:16:04.760 | which is hard to imagine, right?

01:16:05.760 | So he's in and there's pictures in the book.

01:16:07.760 | You should buy the book

01:16:08.760 | just to see the pictures of Rich Roll.

01:16:11.760 | It's a different person.

01:16:13.760 | Pictures like in his 30s.

01:16:14.760 | I saw the cover.

01:16:15.760 | Yeah.

01:16:16.760 | Yeah.

01:16:17.760 | So look at 10 years before that

01:16:19.760 | and he's, you know.

01:16:21.760 | Oh, yeah.

01:16:22.760 | 50, 75 pounds heavier or whatever.

01:16:24.760 | Yeah.

01:16:25.760 | And he just in his 40s.

01:16:27.760 | So now he's clean,

01:16:28.760 | but he's eating junk food all the time.

01:16:30.760 | Runs out of breath

01:16:32.760 | or walking up the stairs or something.

01:16:34.760 | And it's like I got to change this or whatever.

01:16:36.760 | And so he just gets into it.

01:16:37.760 | He becomes a vegan

01:16:39.760 | and starts like serious athletic training

01:16:41.760 | and ends up

01:16:43.760 | becoming like a very successful

01:16:45.760 | like triathlons

01:16:46.760 | and then ultramarathons.

01:16:47.760 | And then he does this thing

01:16:48.760 | where he does five Ironmans in seven days.

01:16:51.760 | So it's like almost one Ironman per day.

01:16:53.760 | Like he starts doing these crazy challenges.

01:16:54.760 | The frustrating thing about the book

01:16:56.760 | is it's like

01:16:57.760 | I start changing how I eat

01:16:58.760 | and just like all the weight falls away.

01:17:00.760 | You know, his body is like an athlete's body.

01:17:03.760 | He starts training

01:17:04.760 | and he's like really good at these things, you know.

01:17:06.760 | But it's a great book.

01:17:08.760 | And that was his story.

01:17:09.760 | And he was like on the cover of

01:17:10.760 | maybe it was Men's Health

01:17:12.760 | as the fittest man in the world or something.

01:17:15.760 | Like in his mid to late 40s.

01:17:17.760 | So yeah,

01:17:18.760 | he became just like got in super good shape.

01:17:20.760 | A very inspiring story for me.

01:17:22.760 | I find it to be an inspiring guy.

01:17:24.760 | I don't,

01:17:25.760 | I have not heard what happened with his house

01:17:27.760 | in the fires.

01:17:28.760 | I know they evacuated.

01:17:30.760 | He's in Calabasas,

01:17:31.760 | which was in the crosshairs.

01:17:33.760 | I don't know what happened.

01:17:35.760 | When I,

01:17:36.760 | I've been to his house once

01:17:37.760 | when I did his podcast the first time.

01:17:39.760 | And that,

01:17:40.760 | that was after the 2017 fires

01:17:42.760 | had been kind of recently.

01:17:43.760 | And he showed me,

01:17:44.760 | we like went down the road

01:17:45.760 | and he showed me like the burn line.

01:17:47.760 | He's like there it is.

01:17:48.760 | Like this was really close to my house.

01:17:50.760 | And I think this one was much worse.

01:17:52.760 | I hopefully,

01:17:53.760 | hopefully his house survived.

01:17:55.760 | But I know they got out of there.

01:17:56.760 | So anyways,

01:17:57.760 | it's a great book.

01:17:58.760 | People forget that backstory.

01:17:59.760 | Rich Roll has an awesome backstory.

01:18:00.760 | He's an awesome guy.

01:18:01.760 | All right.

01:18:02.760 | Then I got into my,

01:18:03.760 | this is my like I need to learn math

01:18:04.760 | because my,

01:18:05.760 | my back hurts

01:18:06.760 | and I'm in surgery

01:18:07.760 | and my mind still works.

01:18:08.760 | So that's what I'm going to do.

01:18:10.760 | So I read Why Machines Learn

01:18:12.760 | by Anil Anathaswamy,

01:18:15.760 | a well-known science reporter.

01:18:18.760 | It's a book about

01:18:20.760 | the mathematics behind machine learning,

01:18:22.760 | sort of starting with the beginning

01:18:24.760 | with like perceptrons

01:18:26.760 | and then moving all the way up

01:18:27.760 | to what's happening

01:18:28.760 | with like deep learning networks.

01:18:29.760 | And I don't really know

01:18:31.760 | who the book is for

01:18:32.760 | outside of like me.

01:18:34.760 | Right.

01:18:35.760 | Because it's,

01:18:36.760 | it's mathy.

01:18:37.760 | It's not all the math.

01:18:38.760 | It's not a textbook.

01:18:39.760 | Right.

01:18:40.760 | So it's like not,

01:18:41.760 | not all the math you need to know,

01:18:42.760 | but it's also,

01:18:43.760 | you know,

01:18:44.760 | multivariate derivatives are in there.

01:18:46.760 | So there's still math,

01:18:47.760 | like you got to know math

01:18:48.760 | to like follow it.

01:18:49.760 | But he's just giving you enough math

01:18:50.760 | that if you know math,

01:18:52.760 | you're like,

01:18:53.760 | oh,

01:18:54.760 | I get a sense of how this works.

01:18:55.760 | Right.

01:18:56.760 | So it's kind of,

01:18:57.760 | I don't know who the audience is.

01:18:58.760 | But because I'm a computer scientist,

01:18:59.760 | but I'm not a machine learning person.

01:19:00.760 | So it's like,

01:19:01.760 | oh, cool.

01:19:02.760 | This,

01:19:03.760 | I see what you're doing here.

01:19:04.760 | Right.

01:19:05.760 | So like I can come away

01:19:06.760 | and understand better

01:19:07.760 | about like what's happening

01:19:08.760 | with support vector machines.

01:19:09.760 | Right.

01:19:10.760 | Why you might want to take

01:19:11.760 | like a,

01:19:12.760 | a particular vector

01:19:14.760 | and you want to sample it up

01:19:16.760 | into a higher dimensional space

01:19:17.760 | where you have more of a chance

01:19:18.760 | of actually finding a clean margin

01:19:20.760 | on your hyperplane

01:19:21.760 | that you can actually have

01:19:22.760 | like an optimal boundary on.

01:19:23.760 | The problem is

01:19:24.760 | you can't actually do

01:19:26.760 | these optimal hyperplane

01:19:28.760 | boundary algorithms

01:19:29.760 | in these multi,

01:19:30.760 | high multidimensional spaces.

01:19:31.760 | It's too computationally expensive.

01:19:34.760 | But if you use

01:19:35.760 | these special types of functions,

01:19:36.760 | you can actually compute these,

01:19:39.760 | you can compute these planes

01:19:41.760 | and discover them

01:19:42.760 | without using just like

01:19:43.760 | low dimensional computation,

01:19:45.760 | without actually having to leave

01:19:46.760 | from the high dimensions

01:19:47.760 | and therefore find

01:19:48.760 | these really good boundaries

01:19:50.760 | that would otherwise be hard

01:19:51.760 | to separate spaces.

01:19:52.760 | Like that's what

01:19:53.760 | support vector machines are.

01:19:54.760 | Like for me,

01:19:55.760 | it's useful.

01:19:56.760 | I can't tell you exactly

01:19:57.760 | how the math works,

01:19:58.760 | but like I have a sense

01:20:00.760 | of like what type of math

01:20:01.760 | is involved.

01:20:02.760 | So I'm a great market

01:20:05.760 | for this book.

01:20:06.760 | I know more about the math

01:20:08.760 | and it's great too

01:20:09.760 | to understand why

01:20:10.760 | when deep learning came around,

01:20:12.760 | it just

01:20:13.760 | blew the doors off

01:20:14.760 | and frustrated everyone

01:20:15.760 | who had been working on the,

01:20:17.760 | I call it boring machine learning,

01:20:18.760 | but this sort of

01:20:19.760 | theoretically rigorous,

01:20:21.760 | provable,

01:20:22.760 | this is these algorithms

01:20:24.760 | and here's what we're doing

01:20:25.760 | and here's how the math works.

01:20:26.760 | And these guys came along

01:20:27.760 | with these multi-layered

01:20:29.760 | huge number parameter models

01:20:30.760 | and were like,

01:20:31.760 | "I don't know.

01:20:32.760 | Let's just train the hell

01:20:33.760 | out of this thing."

01:20:34.760 | And they were like,

01:20:35.760 | "No, this won't work.

01:20:36.760 | It's going to overfit.

01:20:37.760 | That's not how this works."

01:20:38.760 | And it just worked.

01:20:39.760 | They made it bigger

01:20:40.760 | and it just got better.

01:20:41.760 | So it must have been frustrating

01:20:42.760 | for the mathematicians.

01:20:43.760 | So it's kind of a mathy book,

01:20:44.760 | but I got this right.

01:20:47.760 | This is the part of my recovery

01:20:48.760 | when my back started hurting

01:20:49.760 | and I was like,

01:20:50.760 | "Okay, well,

01:20:51.760 | I can still use my mind."

01:20:52.760 | So I got that book

01:20:53.760 | from one of my labyrinth books

01:20:54.760 | in Princeton

01:20:55.760 | over the Christmas break

01:20:56.760 | and just enjoyed that.

01:20:58.760 | All right.

01:20:59.760 | Then I also read Burn Math Class,

01:21:01.760 | which I actually started this book

01:21:02.760 | right before my surgery

01:21:05.760 | when my mobility was restricted

01:21:07.760 | as I was waiting for the surgery

01:21:08.760 | and then I finished it in January.

01:21:09.760 | And this is a crazy book.

01:21:11.760 | This is Jason Wilkes' book.

01:21:12.760 | I love it.

01:21:13.760 | Jesse stole my copy.

01:21:14.760 | I bought another copy.

01:21:17.760 | I don't think he wrote

01:21:18.760 | everything else about this,

01:21:19.760 | but it's this crazy program

01:21:20.760 | of a book

01:21:21.760 | where he basically just derives

01:21:22.760 | from his own first principles

01:21:23.760 | all of mathematics

01:21:24.760 | up to multidimensional calculus.

01:21:26.760 | And just from scratch,

01:21:28.760 | like why,

01:21:29.760 | it's not here's a chain rule.

01:21:31.760 | It's like let's derive,

01:21:32.760 | like get to like

01:21:33.760 | why the chain rule works.

01:21:35.760 | So I don't know.

01:21:36.760 | I think it's kind of a tour de force.

01:21:38.760 | He formatted the whole thing in LaTeX.

01:21:41.760 | He wrote it in a few months.

01:21:43.760 | It's a little bit crazy.

01:21:44.760 | There's these like long extended diagrams

01:21:45.760 | between like mathematics

01:21:47.760 | and like the author of the book.

01:21:48.760 | It's a little bit strange,

01:21:50.760 | but this mathematical program is fantastic.

01:21:53.760 | So I followed this all the way up.

01:21:55.760 | I lost steam at the very end.

01:21:58.760 | I got through like multidimensional derivatives

01:22:01.760 | for calculus,

01:22:02.760 | like the last 30 pages

01:22:03.760 | I kind of lost steam on,

01:22:04.760 | but I got through basically all of it.

01:22:06.760 | Anyways, this was me,

01:22:07.760 | like my mind works

01:22:08.760 | even if my body doesn't.

01:22:09.760 | And I think that book

01:22:10.760 | should be more well known.

01:22:11.760 | It should have had a better title.

01:22:12.760 | This guy, Jason,

01:22:13.760 | if you're out there,

01:22:14.760 | you're a creative guy.

01:22:16.760 | You're obviously very, very smart.

01:22:17.760 | Write more books about math.

01:22:18.760 | Be the Sean Carroll

01:22:20.760 | or the Brian Green of mathematics.

01:22:22.760 | You could do it.

01:22:23.760 | You should find him and tell him that.

01:22:24.760 | It's a cool book,

01:22:25.760 | but Burn Math Class

01:22:26.760 | is not the right title.

01:22:28.760 | And then I read

01:22:29.760 | The Intentional Father by John Tyson.

01:22:31.760 | It was a book on parenting adolescent boys.

01:22:34.760 | My oldest is 12.

01:22:36.760 | I was like, "Oh, I need that advice."

01:22:37.760 | So I grabbed this book on Kindle.

01:22:39.760 | It was more Christian than I thought.

01:22:40.760 | I didn't realize it was like super Christian.

01:22:42.760 | Not necessarily a bad thing, right?

01:22:43.760 | I mean, religions have good ideas for parenting.

01:22:46.760 | I'm still digesting it.

01:22:47.760 | I think Tyson's approach is very structured.

01:22:51.760 | We are, as a father...

01:22:53.760 | So it's about being a father to adolescent boys.

01:22:56.760 | Right in my wheelhouse.

01:22:57.760 | It's a very structured approach.

01:22:59.760 | We're going to do these initiation routines

01:23:02.760 | and set aside this time

01:23:03.760 | and have these conversations every morning.

01:23:05.760 | It was a lot of structure

01:23:07.760 | that maybe I'd be comfortable with,

01:23:08.760 | but I'm letting the ideas marinate.

01:23:10.760 | But I'm looking for good parenting books.

01:23:12.760 | That's a call-out to the audience.

01:23:15.760 | I'm about to hit adolescence fallout.

01:23:18.760 | So if people have good books for that,

01:23:20.760 | especially like boys, fathers' boys,

01:23:22.760 | send those along to jesse@caldewport.com.

01:23:24.760 | I need to read basically all of those.

01:23:26.760 | I already see it coming.

01:23:28.760 | The emotional, everything.

01:23:31.760 | It's for real, folks.

01:23:33.760 | All right, that's all I got for today.

01:23:35.760 | Thank you for listening.

01:23:36.760 | We'll be back next week with another episode.

01:23:38.760 | And until then, as always, stay deep.

01:23:41.760 | Hey, if you liked today's discussion about distraction,

01:23:44.760 | you might also like episode 321,

01:23:48.760 | which is about escaping your phone.

01:23:51.760 | Check it out. I think you'll like it.

01:23:53.760 | So there was this period, it was less than a week,

01:23:55.760 | but it was a period in which I was constantly using my phone.

01:23:57.760 | It punctuated everything that was going on in my life.

01:23:59.760 | And I'll tell you, here's my review of that period.

01:24:01.760 | It was terrible.

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