financial-samurai-po_john-and-sam_full-length-may-26-2023-001_composer-p7wt0figc_clip_2023-may-26-1636pm-utc-riverside
00:00:00.000 | - Hello everybody, it's Sam from the Financial Samurai podcast.
00:00:04.600 | And in this episode I have a special guest with me, Dr. John Durante, the principal of
00:00:10.600 | Syosset High School.
00:00:12.160 | He recently launched a podcast called the College Admissions Process Podcast, the CAP.
00:00:18.580 | And it's there, its goal is to provide insights straight from college admission professionals
00:00:23.720 | of top national universities and colleges.
00:00:26.040 | So welcome, John.
00:00:27.040 | - Sam, thank you so much for having me.
00:00:29.440 | I've been waiting for this conversation.
00:00:31.160 | I really appreciate it more than you'll ever know.
00:00:33.320 | - Ha ha, no, no, I really appreciate you taking out your time.
00:00:36.680 | So today there's no school today during Memorial Weekend Friday?
00:00:40.440 | - That's right, no school today.
00:00:41.880 | So I have all day, Sam.
00:00:43.320 | Go ahead, you shoot with the questions.
00:00:45.080 | - Well, tell me, John, you know, so I discovered your podcast because I've been listening to
00:00:50.280 | a lot more podcasts since the pandemic, which actually is kind of a contra because most
00:00:55.840 | people, many more people started working from home and they started not listening to as
00:01:00.480 | many podcasts.
00:01:01.480 | But me, on the other hand, I started listening to more and I really enjoyed all your interview
00:01:06.640 | questions with various admissions officers.
00:01:10.280 | I have two young children, six and three, and I'm thinking ahead about how to pay for
00:01:15.360 | college, how to strategically get into college, and whether it matters most.
00:01:19.640 | So I really appreciate all the 120 plus interviews you've done so far.
00:01:24.640 | - Well, I appreciate that, Sam.
00:01:26.640 | And like you, I too became a fan of podcasts throughout the pandemic.
00:01:30.400 | Obviously, we had a lot more time on our hands.
00:01:33.040 | So I was introduced to it and I love the on-demand nature of it.
00:01:36.760 | Whether you're taking a walk, exercising, commuting to work, you could listen anywhere,
00:01:41.240 | basically any time.
00:01:42.320 | So that's what I loved about it.
00:01:44.000 | And I realized that I wanted to actually do a podcast of my own.
00:01:47.840 | When I was much, much younger, I used to DJ.
00:01:50.640 | And so this is something that, you know, it's in my blood, I think.
00:01:54.400 | But I wanted to do a podcast that, you know, frankly was going to work and not fail.
00:01:58.960 | Because 80% of the people, unfortunately, that start a podcast, they actually fail quite
00:02:03.440 | quickly because it's a lot of work with editing, especially if you're a one-man person like
00:02:08.720 | I am.
00:02:10.000 | But the way it came about was that I went through the college admissions process with
00:02:15.240 | both of my daughters.
00:02:16.920 | One of them, who is just finishing her sophomore year up in Connecticut, she had an IEP while
00:02:22.000 | in high school.
00:02:23.000 | So high school was-- - And maybe explain IEP to the listeners.
00:02:26.040 | - Yeah, so she had an IEP while in high school, which means she had an individual education
00:02:32.720 | plan.
00:02:33.720 | So basically she was classified as a special education student, but she got her diploma,
00:02:38.160 | she took all the state exams that she needed to take, and she's thriving and doing fine
00:02:42.320 | today.
00:02:43.320 | However, at the time, it was very stressful because she wasn't your typical student.
00:02:48.560 | So I had to become that parent that really needed to help her, to talk to admissions
00:02:52.760 | representatives, and frankly, ask the question, should she even apply to your school?
00:02:57.900 | And what I found was a few things.
00:03:00.060 | First of all, the admissions representatives are phenomenal.
00:03:03.620 | They are so accessible, they really wanna help, they're happy to respond to your emails.
00:03:08.500 | In my case, every once in a while, we even got on a phone call.
00:03:11.260 | Obviously, I would go to the college fairs like many people do.
00:03:14.880 | But I also recognize that other parents, many of them feel, I guess, a stigma.
00:03:20.820 | Maybe they don't wanna reach out to the rep because they think somehow it's gonna be a
00:03:25.140 | bad mark on their child's application.
00:03:27.940 | And others perhaps don't really know what questions to ask.
00:03:30.660 | So since I had just gone through this, I came up with the idea, I said, if the admissions
00:03:35.380 | reps would sit down with me for a half hour, 45 minutes, whatever it is, and they would
00:03:40.800 | talk about their schools and all the great programs that they have to offer both in their
00:03:44.820 | classrooms and beyond, talk about giving insight into their overall application process, whether
00:03:50.340 | it's the essay, the test optional movement, and so many other things, and ultimately,
00:03:56.140 | asking the question, what are your top three pieces of advice that you would give students
00:04:00.120 | and their parents getting ready for the college admissions process?
00:04:04.100 | And so I reached out to a couple of reps thinking, let me see if this idea could be a reality.
00:04:10.020 | And immediately, I had a lot of people saying yes.
00:04:12.100 | And that's when I panicked, Sam, because at that point in time, I didn't know how do you
00:04:16.180 | record, how do you edit.
00:04:18.040 | And so now with 123 episodes live as of today, I've certainly become, I don't wanna say a
00:04:24.860 | professional, but I'm getting better.
00:04:27.020 | - Well, that's great.
00:04:28.900 | And this is on top of your day job as a principal, high school principal.
00:04:32.580 | - That's correct, yes.
00:04:33.580 | I'm the high school principal, as you mentioned, at Syosset High School.
00:04:36.300 | I've been there for 29 years, only 13 years as the principal, and it's a phenomenal school,
00:04:41.460 | a highly academic place, the community is so supportive, and I've spent my entire career
00:04:46.460 | there and I absolutely love it.
00:04:48.260 | But again, this came about after helping my own daughters.
00:04:52.360 | She helped me to see the need that parents have.
00:04:56.820 | A lot of people are just afraid to even reach out to the reps.
00:05:00.220 | And so the podcast was born, and I'm having so much fun with it.
00:05:03.900 | - No, that's great.
00:05:05.460 | Your episodes are great.
00:05:06.540 | I listened to, most recently, the William & Mary episode because I went to the College
00:05:11.620 | of William & Mary.
00:05:12.620 | - Fantastic.
00:05:13.620 | - And I also listened to the University of San Francisco episode because I'm based here
00:05:17.300 | in San Francisco.
00:05:18.300 | And I really like that admissions fella.
00:05:20.940 | He had a lot of enthusiasm and insights.
00:05:24.420 | So as a principal, I'm curious to know how often are you approached by students and parents
00:05:30.380 | to get a college recommendation letter, and how much waiting does that have?
00:05:34.680 | Because to me, it sounds like, "Oh, if I got a recommendation letter from the principal,
00:05:38.940 | that must be pretty impressive."
00:05:40.180 | - Yes, I probably write about 20 a year.
00:05:43.500 | So I would say I get approached pretty regularly.
00:05:46.220 | And I think that, first of all, I always love to help people, which is why I came up with
00:05:50.620 | this crazy idea of doing this podcast, and here we are.
00:05:53.940 | But I think what's more important about recommendation letters or understanding the overall application
00:05:58.900 | is that you really have to look at it as a marketing package and understand that there
00:06:02.980 | are multiple parts, and the admissions reps will tell you that they take a holistic approach.
00:06:08.020 | So your transcript, that gives a picture of four years of your academic ramps, the challenges,
00:06:14.500 | and how you built those ramps.
00:06:16.380 | The activity sheet, obviously, that's what you've done outside of the classroom.
00:06:21.820 | Your essay is your voice about yourself.
00:06:23.780 | A recommendation letter is someone else's voice about you.
00:06:27.340 | So it's very important to understand the role of each of the parts while building upon each
00:06:33.660 | other and not repeating where the information is found somewhere else.
00:06:38.620 | So I'll give you an example.
00:06:40.220 | If I am a soccer player, and on my activity sheet I talk about playing on the varsity
00:06:45.020 | team and maybe I play on an academy team, and perhaps I help students after school with
00:06:50.180 | homework that are younger than me that play soccer in my club, that's fantastic.
00:06:54.340 | Those are all great things.
00:06:56.440 | If my essay is also about playing soccer, Sam, it's a missed opportunity, right?
00:07:03.140 | Because the activity sheet clearly defines all of those things that you do after school.
00:07:08.800 | So unless the essay, yes, could be related to soccer, but it gives more insight in terms
00:07:13.660 | of something that occurred, your thought process, your reflections, how it made you better,
00:07:18.900 | how you see yourself with those qualities contributing on a college campus, unless the
00:07:24.580 | essay is giving that off, it's a missed opportunity.
00:07:27.700 | So you asked a question about when students come to me for me to ask them, for me to write
00:07:32.560 | a letter of recommendation for them.
00:07:34.780 | I'm very mindful of not repeating what's already on their activity sheet or on their transcript.
00:07:42.260 | The college admissions representatives know whether you're an A, a B+, an A+ student based
00:07:47.180 | on your transcript.
00:07:48.500 | They already know if you're a part of five after school activities.
00:07:52.640 | I don't need to reiterate that in my recommendation letter, otherwise it's a missed opportunity.
00:07:59.140 | So I'm going to give you an example of my favorite recommendation letter for a student.
00:08:02.940 | I was in my office really early, Sam.
00:08:07.340 | In my building, period one begins at 7.30.
00:08:09.740 | Wow.
00:08:10.740 | 7.30?
00:08:11.740 | Yeah, it's really early.
00:08:14.300 | So I was in the office before 7 one morning, checking email, and a student walks into my
00:08:18.980 | office and says, "Hey, I found this and I want to make sure it gets back to the rightful
00:08:22.860 | owner."
00:08:23.860 | I turn around and he puts a $100 bill on my desk.
00:08:26.740 | True story.
00:08:30.300 | We ultimately got it back to the rightful owner, but the point being is that what I
00:08:34.620 | said to that kid, and at the time he was in 10th grade, I said, "When you're ready for
00:08:38.980 | college, I'm going to write a letter for you."
00:08:41.740 | And my letter was the entire story.
00:08:44.620 | And I think that talking about an incident like that, it's not so simple to find that
00:08:49.980 | story on a transcript, on an activity sheet, but his principal was able to talk about his
00:08:55.820 | integrity and how he found the $100 bill and never even thought once to take it, but rather
00:09:01.260 | he wanted to get it back to the rightful owner.
00:09:03.780 | So think about the admissions representative side.
00:09:07.280 | That letter is my voice explaining all the great characteristics of that student.
00:09:13.980 | So that letter builds on all of the other parts.
00:09:16.580 | Right, right.
00:09:17.580 | No, that's a great story.
00:09:19.500 | It's about character.
00:09:20.900 | A lot of it is about character.
00:09:22.100 | I've listened to more than a couple dozen episodes of yours and the admissions officers
00:09:27.220 | continuously kind of highlight about your essay.
00:09:31.660 | It doesn't have to be about how glorious you are.
00:09:33.860 | It can be about the day-to-day things, the simple things, your ride on the bus, what
00:09:38.700 | you eat, discussions with your family.
00:09:42.380 | Because they must be screening over and over again highly qualified, highly tailored, customized
00:09:48.260 | applications.
00:09:49.260 | So I would think that something unique that does stand out does matter.
00:09:55.220 | It does.
00:09:56.220 | And they'll tell you that the most common essays are sports injuries or a story perhaps
00:10:02.020 | of a, or a story about a grandparent, for example.
00:10:06.020 | So in the case of a grandparent, many mistakes that students make is they speak about their
00:10:10.380 | grandparent, many, for example, perhaps a grandparent came here from another country
00:10:14.660 | to find a better life for their family, which is a great story.
00:10:18.860 | But the reps will say, "I want to admit grandpa, but I know nothing new about the student."
00:10:25.540 | So it's very important to write the letter.
00:10:29.340 | It's very important to write the essay, put the pen down, put the computer down, go back
00:10:33.740 | to it a day later, a week later, a month later.
00:10:36.940 | And here's the point of the essay.
00:10:39.440 | When someone reads your essay, did they learn something new about you, who you are, the
00:10:46.740 | way you reflect, your thought process?
00:10:49.700 | And frankly, another thing that the colleges are trying to determine is how are you going
00:10:54.460 | to contribute to their school community?
00:10:57.220 | So those, in general, that's what you're trying to get out of the essay, again, as opposed
00:11:01.500 | to repeating that you're an A+ student or that you've played soccer your entire life.
00:11:08.060 | Each piece of this holistic process, right, that's what they say, they review the application
00:11:12.800 | holistically, each piece has to build upon the next.
00:11:15.800 | So it's very important to understand what each piece means.
00:11:18.760 | Now, another thing, Sam, if I may, many colleges, they'll ask students for a supplemental essay.
00:11:24.720 | And what happens is students, many of them, they spend so much time on their general essay
00:11:29.960 | that when they see a school ask for one or two supplemental essays, they almost get frustrated,
00:11:35.200 | right?
00:11:36.200 | They just want to rush through it and get it done.
00:11:37.880 | Big mistake.
00:11:39.220 | Big mistake.
00:11:40.260 | The point of the supplemental essay is for you to demonstrate your understanding of the
00:11:46.460 | institution.
00:11:48.420 | Why do you want to go there?
00:11:50.460 | Why do you see yourself there?
00:11:52.140 | How do you see yourself contributing to their school community?
00:11:56.660 | A typical supplemental question would be, for example, why NYU?
00:12:00.740 | In other words, why would you want to go to NYU, New York University?
00:12:05.220 | And so some students see that as a simple question, but it has a deeper meaning.
00:12:09.580 | They're testing your demonstrated understanding of their institution and what you're going
00:12:15.500 | to do to make it better and contribute.
00:12:17.940 | Right.
00:12:18.940 | You know, it just seems like getting good grades and standardized test scores for colleges
00:12:24.540 | who accept those scores is standard nowadays.
00:12:28.580 | And I think you're absolutely right.
00:12:31.300 | Getting a unique essay that has a different perspective is very valuable.
00:12:35.380 | So don't shirk on the responsibility of writing and spending time on those essays.
00:12:40.900 | In terms of standardized admissions, I love your consistent questions about what percentage
00:12:46.500 | of the admitted students took standardized test scores.
00:12:50.100 | And it seems to me strategically that if you have a high standardized test score, you submit
00:12:55.060 | it.
00:12:56.060 | If you don't, or it's not, you know, maybe it's 50 percent or it's below the 50 percent
00:12:59.900 | range, you don't submit it.
00:13:02.820 | What are your thoughts in general about the trend towards no standardized test scores?
00:13:08.420 | And what are some good strategies that parents and students should think about?
00:13:12.220 | Sure.
00:13:13.220 | And that's a great question.
00:13:14.220 | Thank you so much, Sam.
00:13:15.220 | So first of all, I absolutely think that every student should prepare for the SAT, ACT.
00:13:21.340 | Frankly, take both of them and see if you do better on one or the other.
00:13:25.980 | With my own daughters, both of them, for whatever reason, did better on the ACT.
00:13:30.700 | And so that's what we followed.
00:13:33.580 | So the reason why I ask that question, and thank you for posing it, it's basically, can
00:13:38.300 | you tell us the percentage of students that applied and who were ultimately admitted,
00:13:42.300 | not only who applied, but who were admitted that did not submit their test scores?
00:13:46.860 | And so I ask that question because a lot of people think that the test optional movement
00:13:51.860 | is a myth.
00:13:53.100 | So clearly, if you listen to the episodes, in most cases, in most cases, it's about a
00:13:58.140 | 50/50 split.
00:14:00.340 | Schools that are more competitive, maybe it's 60/40, 70/30, but clearly the test optional
00:14:06.620 | movement, if the school says that they are test optional, they are test optional.
00:14:10.840 | Another thing to be very mindful of is that many times when you're researching a school,
00:14:15.380 | everyone looks at that mid 50%.
00:14:18.020 | And it's very important to understand that obviously right now, in this era of test optional,
00:14:22.660 | of the test optional movement, only students that score high are submitting.
00:14:28.140 | Therefore, the mid 50% in terms of standardized test is skewed.
00:14:32.540 | It's much higher than it was before.
00:14:34.780 | Don't be discouraged by that, students.
00:14:36.660 | Don't be discouraged.
00:14:38.060 | Know that it's going to be higher for that reason.
00:14:40.520 | Only students that score well are submitting.
00:14:43.420 | And take the test.
00:14:44.900 | If you fall within that middle 50 and you feel it's a great indication of who you are
00:14:48.940 | academically, submit it.
00:14:51.180 | If a school says that they're test optional and they're reporting in my episodes that
00:14:55.700 | it's 50/50 in terms of how many submit or not, trust it.
00:15:00.340 | Trust it.
00:15:01.340 | You want that marketing package, your overall application to be the best that it could be.
00:15:05.660 | If your score falls so much lower, but your transcript shows the rigor, the ramps that
00:15:10.260 | you built over four years, don't submit.
00:15:13.020 | But if that score falls within the 50%, certainly submit that test score.
00:15:17.580 | And there are schools, for example, the UC system, Sam, right where you live, they're
00:15:21.340 | test blind.
00:15:22.340 | So whether you submit the scores or not, they're not looking at it.
00:15:25.460 | And where I think the trend is going to go moving forward, many of the admissions reps,
00:15:29.380 | they're reporting that they're looking at trends over the next couple of years.
00:15:32.620 | And they're trying to determine going test optional, if they're seeing any changes in
00:15:37.460 | terms of the courses that students are taking, if they're seeing any changes in graduation
00:15:42.220 | rates.
00:15:43.300 | And what most are saying is that if they don't see significant changes, the test optional
00:15:49.060 | movement is probably here to stay.
00:15:51.420 | - Okay.
00:15:52.420 | No, that makes a lot of sense.
00:15:54.540 | What would you say to the people who are skeptic regarding the test optional movement so that
00:15:59.260 | colleges can do more to subjectively instead of objectively admit students based on what
00:16:06.820 | they think is the ideal class, what the ideal class looks like?
00:16:13.380 | - Yeah, so that's something really difficult to dig deep into.
00:16:17.100 | I can tell you that all institutions have their institutional needs.
00:16:22.380 | So for example, it was reported that one particular school, they could only accept up to 18% of
00:16:28.860 | the students that are out of state.
00:16:32.180 | Another school might be looking for more students within a certain major.
00:16:36.480 | Another school might only accept a certain amount of students from a particular high
00:16:40.340 | school.
00:16:41.340 | There are so many institutional needs governed by their board of trustees many times that,
00:16:47.780 | you know, I think the best advice that I could give is to control what you could control
00:16:54.460 | and don't worry about the rest.
00:16:55.780 | And what I mean by that is that there's a reason why you might hear of a student that
00:16:59.560 | gets accepted to Stanford and gets rejected to, I don't know, Yale, right?
00:17:05.940 | Both phenomenal schools, and I'm not trying to compare one with the other, both highly
00:17:09.980 | selective, highly academic.
00:17:12.660 | But the reason may be if you have a straight A+ average and you've been part of many activities
00:17:19.540 | and you've taken on leadership roles and you've done so many humanitarian things, you've done
00:17:24.640 | all you can.
00:17:25.680 | You wrote an outstanding essay.
00:17:27.320 | Your supplemental essays were, to the point earlier, really demonstrating your understanding
00:17:31.480 | of the institution.
00:17:33.080 | You have to understand that that's the best that you could do.
00:17:35.660 | You created a marketing package that really represents who you are as a student, both
00:17:40.320 | inside of the classroom and out.
00:17:42.260 | But it's also important to recognize that, yes, many times there's no rhyme or reason
00:17:46.500 | as to why students get accepted or not.
00:17:50.260 | Let me put it in simple terms.
00:17:51.780 | Many schools, for example, they might have 1,000 seats.
00:17:55.020 | They're looking to accept 1,000 students as a freshman class.
00:17:59.840 | But they get 15,000 applications, 10,000 of which are all viable candidates.
00:18:06.160 | So how do they choose?
00:18:07.780 | And so that's why there are so many things that come into play that, frankly, are out
00:18:11.100 | of our control.
00:18:12.540 | So I just think that part of the process is being mindful of all of this.
00:18:16.280 | And of course, what makes it worse now is that if you're mindful of it, you're going
00:18:19.660 | to apply to more schools, which means that schools are getting even more applications.
00:18:24.260 | And so it's a vicious cycle.
00:18:26.480 | But my point in the whole podcast is to just shed light on all of this and really give
00:18:32.380 | people a resource that they could chew on and digest.
00:18:37.140 | You know, as a parent, I have hopes and dreams for my children, as do you.
00:18:42.660 | I think all parents do.
00:18:44.500 | And then we wonder about the future.
00:18:46.780 | And I think one of the stepping stones for many families is for their children to go
00:18:51.060 | to college.
00:18:52.340 | However, it seems that most of the information we can learn online is free or low cost now.
00:18:59.340 | The European model has apprenticeships, which gets the apprentices into decent paying jobs
00:19:05.880 | and it goes up.
00:19:08.020 | What is your thought about the overall future of college, given tuition rates have gone
00:19:12.120 | up way faster than the rate of inflation for so long?
00:19:14.920 | And there seems to be a huge disconnect.
00:19:16.580 | I just recently saw the University of Southern California has a total all-in cost of about
00:19:22.080 | ninety one thousand for the coming year.
00:19:25.960 | And that times four is a lot of money.
00:19:28.900 | And it doesn't seem like it's going to stop or abate.
00:19:31.960 | So what are your thoughts about the disconnect between the cost of college and the median
00:19:38.220 | income post-college?
00:19:40.080 | It doesn't seem like it's keeping up.
00:19:42.820 | It's definitely not keeping up and it's certainly a major problem.
00:19:45.760 | And obviously it's a conversation family to family.
00:19:49.320 | There are many families, I myself went to a state university growing up.
00:19:53.880 | And so it's a very important point to talk about the financial situation early and often
00:20:00.680 | with your student.
00:20:02.460 | Many times the reps talk about the fact that a kid is really excited about a certain school.
00:20:08.360 | He or she gets admitted only to find out that the parents can't afford it because they didn't
00:20:12.900 | get the financial aid package that they had hoped for.
00:20:15.920 | These are conversations that have to start early.
00:20:18.960 | If you're a family, like my family was, where we could only afford a state school growing
00:20:23.560 | up, then make that very clear early.
00:20:28.200 | Another thing to understand is that every school has something called a net price calculator.
00:20:33.000 | They're supposed to make it available to you on their websites.
00:20:37.760 | And if you use the net price calculator, it's really a good indicator in terms of based
00:20:43.440 | on your salary, based on your financial situation, what it is that you're going to be able to
00:20:49.640 | afford or not at each and every school.
00:20:53.000 | So my recommendation would be for people to use the net price calculator.
00:20:56.640 | Sure.
00:20:57.640 | Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I take a lot of views from a personal finance
00:21:02.440 | angle given financialsamurai.com.
00:21:06.240 | And one of the things I didn't realize until listening to many of your episodes and other
00:21:11.320 | podcast episodes is that, you know, I used to think, "Ah, if you make a lot of money,
00:21:17.160 | you're going to get penalized and you're not going to get a lot of financial aid."
00:21:20.600 | So that's fine in the sense that, well, you make a lot of money so you can afford, more
00:21:24.840 | easily afford to pay for college.
00:21:27.080 | But on the positive side is that actually if you make a lot of money, maybe, true or
00:21:33.600 | false, the admissions officers might say, "Oh, okay, well, you make a lot of money.
00:21:38.000 | You can pay the full freight and you can also maybe be a bigger donor in the future."
00:21:44.880 | So what are your thoughts on that situation?
00:21:49.560 | So those are not typical questions that I ask in the episode because the goal with my
00:21:55.120 | podcast is, again, to have them give insight in terms of the programs that they offer inside
00:22:00.160 | of the classroom and beyond, to give insight into the review process, to give insight of
00:22:05.760 | life on campus, and then, of course, the advice that they could give students and parents.
00:22:11.320 | In terms of the financial side, the net price calculator is huge.
00:22:14.840 | The other thing that's huge is to apply early, usually it's within the early action stages
00:22:20.080 | because that's when they have the money that they consider for merit scholarships and things
00:22:25.320 | like that.
00:22:27.640 | But you're absolutely right.
00:22:28.640 | You know, it's a vicious cycle.
00:22:30.320 | You made reference to $91,000 a year times four.
00:22:34.840 | That's a lot of money.
00:22:36.440 | Most people in the United States and beyond cannot afford that.
00:22:40.680 | So something's got to give.
00:22:42.080 | And again, I highlight the fact that it's very important, very important to talk about
00:22:46.760 | the financial ability of a family to afford a school or not, to have those conversations
00:22:53.900 | really early.
00:22:54.900 | Right.
00:22:55.900 | Yeah, my fear is for students and parents to apply to a school.
00:23:01.580 | They love the school.
00:23:02.580 | They get in, but they have to pay a lot more than they expect.
00:23:05.540 | And then they're saddled with a lot of student loan debt, and they don't get that job that
00:23:10.180 | they thought they were going to get.
00:23:12.140 | It's interesting.
00:23:13.140 | I was looking at some statistics at Harvard.
00:23:17.020 | And to apply to these elite universities, you talk about a lot of nonprofit work, helping
00:23:23.100 | society, volunteering and all that.
00:23:26.500 | You look like a great humanitarian on these college applications.
00:23:30.060 | But then I looked at the percentage of graduates who went to tech, finance and consulting,
00:23:38.300 | and it was almost 60%.
00:23:39.300 | 60% of graduates from Harvard went to these fields.
00:23:43.340 | And I wondered, well, what happened to saving the world?
00:23:45.980 | What happened to humanity?
00:23:48.860 | Do you have any thoughts on why this is?
00:23:51.740 | Well, I do think that there's -- let me just take a second.
00:23:57.220 | I'm sorry, Sam.
00:23:58.220 | I'm going to take a sip of water.
00:24:09.780 | So I think there's a reality that students do a lot of humanitarian efforts, a lot of
00:24:13.860 | volunteer work to make sure that their activity sheet is full of diverse activities.
00:24:20.660 | And whether or not they continue with it later on, maybe throughout college, they mature,
00:24:27.180 | if you will, and their -- they mature, if you will, and their interests change.
00:24:34.900 | But I don't know.
00:24:35.900 | That's something that's individual and not something that I necessarily dig deep in in
00:24:40.060 | my podcast.
00:24:41.500 | That's not the focus of my podcast.
00:24:44.220 | My focus is to make sure that I get every single rep from every single college and university
00:24:48.720 | throughout the country.
00:24:50.300 | So I'm not an investigative reporter where I'm trying to pin somebody in a corner, you
00:24:54.500 | know.
00:24:55.780 | But we do have a lot of honest conversations.
00:24:58.420 | And yes, you know, there are institutional needs.
00:25:01.420 | And it's a problem.
00:25:02.420 | And we talk about the fact that if you could take the first 20% of students that are denied
00:25:07.580 | admissions and you compare their profiles to the students that were accepted, many will
00:25:12.460 | tell you that there's no difference.
00:25:14.400 | There's really no difference.
00:25:16.100 | But if all of a sudden you have a donor that gives millions of dollars towards a health
00:25:21.240 | facility on campus and that person tells the board of trustees, by the way, this is something
00:25:26.640 | that was in Rick Clark's book, The Truth About College Admissions is what it's called.
00:25:32.820 | If there's a donor and they build a health building on campus and the donor says, I want
00:25:39.840 | to see more, for example, and this is just an example, I want to see more females in
00:25:44.580 | the STEM fields, then that institution will hire more females in those majors.
00:25:51.140 | And there's multiple examples of that as well.
00:25:53.340 | So that's definitely a reality.
00:25:55.140 | Rick Clark was on one of my episodes.
00:25:57.020 | He's phenomenal.
00:25:58.020 | He's at Georgia Tech.
00:26:00.100 | But when he was on, we spoke about his book, The Truth About College Admission, which I
00:26:04.140 | would recommend because he's excellent.
00:26:06.340 | And if you're going to listen to the podcast, I would listen to that episode because that
00:26:10.140 | was one episode where we dig really deep into exactly that, the different institutional
00:26:15.820 | needs and Rick gave tremendous examples that I think would be helpful in terms of his insight
00:26:20.700 | to your listeners, Sam.
00:26:23.140 | Sounds good.
00:26:24.780 | On the podcast, you speak about the importance of visiting campus and just to get a feel,
00:26:31.060 | I guess how long should you stay to visit campus and what if you can't afford to visit
00:26:37.420 | campus or you can't get to it because of scheduling conflicts?
00:26:41.060 | And what are some questions that students should be asking while they're on campus and
00:26:44.900 | what should they be doing to really get that full immersive experience so they don't have
00:26:48.980 | any kind of head fakes or surprises once they matriculate?
00:26:52.900 | Well, those are great questions and I'll try to break it down different ways.
00:26:57.660 | So first off, many students are not able to visit campus because of financial constraints.
00:27:04.340 | There are many students that may be able to afford it but then there are time constraints.
00:27:07.700 | So it's not easy to visit campuses, especially if you're on the East Coast and you're thinking
00:27:11.700 | about going to school on the West Coast.
00:27:14.020 | So what I would recommend first is wherever you live in the United States or beyond, there's
00:27:20.700 | got to be a college campus near you.
00:27:23.460 | So whether or not you intend to go to the schools that are within an hour from wherever
00:27:28.740 | you live, go and pay them a visit.
00:27:32.020 | You get a feel of the campus.
00:27:35.020 | Do you want to have a campus that is in a city?
00:27:37.380 | Do you want a campus that has an actual campus?
00:27:40.540 | Do you want to be in a big school, a small school?
00:27:43.380 | Do you want to be more than an hour away from your house or do you want to be closer?
00:27:48.100 | These are all things that you should consider and so if you can't afford getting on a plane
00:27:51.700 | and traveling across the country, at least go visit local campuses to get a feel of what
00:27:57.580 | it is that you're looking for in a college, large school, small school, medium school,
00:28:02.180 | and all of that.
00:28:03.540 | The next thing is that the pandemic has taught us that there's a lot that we could do virtually.
00:28:08.380 | So engage in the virtual events.
00:28:11.380 | If you're able to visit campus, certainly do the tour, certainly ask questions of the
00:28:16.620 | student, but take the time to speak to random students on campus.
00:28:22.500 | How accessible are the professors?
00:28:24.580 | Is this a commuter school?
00:28:25.860 | What do students do on the weekend?
00:28:27.300 | Do they go home or is there a lot going on?
00:28:30.780 | If you're interested in the social life, yes.
00:28:32.860 | If you're interested in the party life, ask the random student.
00:28:37.020 | The other advice that I would give to students is to be aware of the full sense of comfort
00:28:42.780 | when you're on a college campus, for example, with your brother or sister or your parents
00:28:47.060 | or whoever it is that's familiar to you, that's visiting with you.
00:28:50.580 | It's very easy to go to a campus, you go on the tour, they show you all the beautiful
00:28:54.020 | things, you usually go and have a nice lunch or a dinner with your family nearby and you
00:28:59.300 | feel comfortable.
00:29:01.020 | And be weary of that false sense of comfort because you're there with your parent.
00:29:06.500 | So my advice to parents here is when you visit, if you're able to, give your child, even if
00:29:12.060 | it's a half hour on their own, let them go sit on a bench, let them go take a walk to
00:29:17.420 | the dining hall, whatever it is, so that they could get a better sense of whether or not
00:29:23.500 | they really see themselves being there, but on their own and not in the comfort of having
00:29:28.100 | their family around them.
00:29:29.340 | Sure.
00:29:30.340 | That makes a lot of sense.
00:29:31.940 | I loved visiting college campuses when my sister was checking it out.
00:29:36.060 | She was four years older than me.
00:29:37.060 | It was so fun.
00:29:38.060 | It was fun to walk around, to imagine the freedom that you'd have once you're there,
00:29:43.580 | no parental supervision.
00:29:47.020 | It's amazing.
00:29:48.020 | I wish I was back in college because I had so much fun.
00:29:50.540 | Me too.
00:29:51.540 | I mean, I hear more and more people are taking five years, six years and longer to go to
00:29:55.740 | college, to graduate.
00:29:59.420 | Speaking of parents, as a parent, I feel there is a level of anxiety, at least here when
00:30:06.860 | I live here in a big city like San Francisco.
00:30:08.900 | There's a lot of type A personalities, real go-getters, people who went to some of the
00:30:13.380 | top 50 universities and are working at some of the highest paying firms.
00:30:18.320 | If you were to rewind time back to when your children were younger, maybe in middle school
00:30:24.500 | or elementary school, what would you do differently, if anything?
00:30:30.260 | Well, we started the college process early, so that's definitely something that I would
00:30:34.540 | repeat, but I probably would have went more frequently and I would have been more mindful
00:30:40.420 | in terms of trying to get them summer internships or summer employment earlier, as opposed to
00:30:50.820 | waiting until much later.
00:30:52.820 | Of course, in retrospect, going through it the second time around would always be better,
00:30:56.700 | but that's, I think, what I would do.
00:30:57.940 | I would have started earlier in terms of the research process, the conversations that families
00:31:02.700 | have regarding finances, regarding interests, regarding whether, again, they want to be
00:31:07.700 | close to home, far from home.
00:31:10.220 | It's very important, I think, that you make good use of your time, whether it's during
00:31:15.140 | after-school activities, during summer activities.
00:31:19.020 | I would be even more mindful of cultivating that for both of my daughters.
00:31:23.500 | No, that's great.
00:31:24.660 | I have a dilemma to make because my daughter is three, so I guess I have 14 years to figure
00:31:32.020 | it out.
00:31:33.020 | I have two paths to take.
00:31:35.060 | One is the easygoing, non-Tiger Dad path, just explore the world, do long travel, enjoy
00:31:42.060 | the next 14 years, or to be more strict and to try to push her to get the best grades,
00:31:48.340 | best test scores, do the most extracurricular activity possible in the 5% hope that she
00:31:54.220 | gets into a top 10 or 20 school.
00:32:00.020 | What do you think is the better path?
00:32:01.500 | If you had that choice to live an amazing next 14, 15 years, you can travel around the
00:32:06.700 | world, live for one or two years at a time, not really stress about the things that you
00:32:12.860 | don't want to learn, because I think a lot of us, when we go to high school, we have
00:32:17.740 | to learn stuff that we don't maybe necessarily all like.
00:32:20.860 | I didn't like chemistry or super high-level math.
00:32:25.340 | What are your thoughts about these two paths to take?
00:32:28.460 | My thoughts are that you have to take a combination of each and understand what you can control
00:32:33.380 | and what you don't control.
00:32:34.780 | What I mean by that is, in terms of test scores, in terms of your grades, I would always encourage
00:32:39.180 | students to do the best that you can.
00:32:41.140 | Immerse yourself in everything your elementary school, middle school, high school has to
00:32:45.060 | offer.
00:32:46.060 | There are some schools that offer multiple advanced placement courses or IB courses,
00:32:50.660 | and others that don't offer any.
00:32:54.140 | Based on wherever you're going to school, I would always advocate for hard work.
00:32:59.540 | Hard work is, you know, anything that's worthwhile in life is not easy, but if it's worthwhile,
00:33:05.100 | it's definitely something that you should do.
00:33:06.820 | And so, absolutely, trying to be involved with various activities to see what you like
00:33:11.340 | and don't like, working hard to get good grades, that's something that you absolutely should
00:33:16.620 | do.
00:33:17.620 | But again, I think what you need to understand is that then there's all of the things that
00:33:20.820 | are not in your control.
00:33:22.500 | I know many students that have a flawless GPA, have been president of their association,
00:33:29.900 | whatever club or activity they're involved with, have done the humanitarian things, and
00:33:34.900 | yet they don't get accepted to every single school that they apply to.
00:33:38.700 | And again, it comes down to institutional needs.
00:33:42.180 | Number of students that get accepted in-state, out-of-state, are they looking for more males,
00:33:46.940 | females, are they looking for more people in a specific major?
00:33:51.340 | Those are all things that are out of our control.
00:33:53.540 | So to answer your question, I think you cultivate both paths, but understand again what you
00:33:59.300 | control and what you don't.
00:34:00.300 | >>Ted: No, I love that.
00:34:02.380 | Control what you can control.
00:34:04.300 | Do you believe, in terms of two variables, nature versus nurture, what is the more dominant
00:34:11.500 | variable?
00:34:12.500 | >>Mike: Well, I definitely think that that, you know, varies, but, you know, you seem
00:34:18.740 | like you're a great parent, Sam, and I think you're doing the right thing.
00:34:21.500 | I mean, you mentioned that your daughter is three years old and, you know, you're already
00:34:24.980 | listening to the podcast, and I think that's good.
00:34:28.940 | I think that's good.
00:34:29.940 | And of course, you know, we also have to be mindful of the fact that five, ten, fifteen
00:34:33.820 | years from now, who knows what it's going to be like.
00:34:36.940 | Hopefully it's going to be better, but who knows, you know?
00:34:40.100 | So that's a tough question to answer.
00:34:42.060 | >>Sam: Yeah, I mean, I'm always trying to think, as an investor in me, I'm always trying to
00:34:45.820 | forecast the future, think about the future.
00:34:47.900 | I try to, you know, hedge against bad outcomes.
00:34:52.140 | And currently, the current hedge is to build wealth, be a present parent, teach the reasons
00:34:59.100 | why education is important, some practical knowledge, and actually have this podcast.
00:35:05.380 | I have a goal to keep it running for the next fifteen years as a recording to see, you know,
00:35:11.860 | what dad and mom were thinking about at this time fifteen years later, and maybe something
00:35:16.900 | that maybe my kids can take over in the future one day.
00:35:21.180 | You don't know.
00:35:22.180 | There's all these, that's why we take insurance, right?
00:35:24.300 | Because there's all these unknown variables.
00:35:26.300 | >>Mike No, it's true.
00:35:28.140 | But what you do know, right, is that you want your child to work hard, whether it's in the
00:35:32.340 | classroom or beyond.
00:35:33.660 | You want them to be good people.
00:35:34.980 | You want them to be, you know, humanitarians.
00:35:38.180 | You want them to invest in their future.
00:35:39.900 | You want all of that.
00:35:41.420 | And so, I think all of those things are very noble things to cultivate.
00:35:46.460 | And you know, you're obviously a great role model for your kids.
00:35:50.180 | But where is college admissions going to be fifteen years from now?
00:35:52.980 | I don't think anyone would know at this point.
00:35:56.860 | >>Adam Yeah, it is interesting.
00:35:59.900 | I just have low expectations.
00:36:01.700 | But you know, just, I mean, five percent acceptance rate literally means, yeah, ninety-five percent
00:36:06.980 | people can't get in, and maybe you have to just shoot at different levels of college.
00:36:11.660 | I went to a state school.
00:36:12.660 | I went to the College of William & Mary.
00:36:14.780 | Right now it has, I think, like a thirty-five percent acceptance rate.
00:36:18.940 | So it's a, I guess, a top fifty school.
00:36:22.960 | I guess for other parents and students out there, how do you help them manage expectations
00:36:30.660 | in terms of, you know, trying to get into the top school possible?
00:36:34.540 | Let's say they don't get into the top school.
00:36:36.060 | What happens next?
00:36:37.060 | Is life over or not?
00:36:38.860 | How do you go about that?
00:36:40.020 | >>Mike Life is definitely not over.
00:36:42.020 | Ironically, I just interviewed Amanda Zuckerman, who happens to be the co-founder of Dormify,
00:36:47.780 | which is a company where if you need to decorate your dorm, it's the leading company.
00:36:53.140 | And I bring her up because what she explained was that her life dream was to go to the University
00:36:58.420 | of Pennsylvania.
00:37:00.660 | And she was rejected eventually.
00:37:03.700 | And what happened was, in doing her tours, she found a place called Wash U, Washington
00:37:10.180 | University in St. Louis.
00:37:11.180 | >>Very tough school to get into, actually.
00:37:12.180 | >>Great school.
00:37:13.180 | Well, so I teased her on the episode to say, "Listen, you know, you were highly academic.
00:37:18.740 | You probably could have gotten into Penn based on your profile.
00:37:21.500 | But, you know, they only accept less than ten percent or whatever it is.
00:37:24.500 | So not everyone's going to get in."
00:37:25.820 | But the moral of the story is that she was disappointed, but she explained how everything
00:37:32.340 | happens for a reason.
00:37:33.820 | And the fact that she went to Wash U, and Wash U had certain programs related to students
00:37:39.140 | and business and finance, that that helped her develop the concept of coming up with
00:37:45.460 | Dormify, which is frankly a multi-million dollar corporation right now.
00:37:50.020 | You know, so yes, she was disappointed at the time.
00:37:54.660 | And she explained how her journey at Wash U wasn't always, you know, sweet, but things
00:38:01.220 | truly happen for a reason.
00:38:02.900 | So I think that you have to move forward with integrity, do the best that you can, save
00:38:08.900 | for your future, cultivate your grades, cultivate your activities, and you have to trust that
00:38:16.300 | you're going to find the right fit.
00:38:17.820 | And it's important to understand that there are over 4,000 colleges and universities throughout
00:38:22.340 | the United States alone, and there is a school for every single student.
00:38:27.660 | In fact, there's more than just one school for every single student.
00:38:31.660 | But not every single school is the right fit for each student.
00:38:36.420 | So it's very important not to worry about where mom and dad went, where your best friends
00:38:41.140 | are going, but to really be mindful of, again, do you want to be far away, do you want to
00:38:46.740 | be close, do you want to be in a rural, urban, suburban environment, is there a particular
00:38:51.840 | major that you're looking for?
00:38:53.700 | These are things that too many times students neglect because they want to go where their
00:38:58.100 | friend is going or they're worried about the sticker on the back of the SUV.
00:39:02.820 | But you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of gems, a lot of
00:39:07.700 | gems out there.
00:39:09.020 | And so you have to have an open mind.
00:39:11.060 | Yeah.
00:39:12.060 | As a high school principal, what are your thoughts on students considering going to
00:39:17.260 | a public high school and a private high school?
00:39:22.480 | I think that varies based on individual needs.
00:39:26.000 | My school happens to be a public school.
00:39:27.940 | It's a highly academic public school.
00:39:30.860 | And frankly, if that's where I lived, I would be extremely happy to have my children go
00:39:36.460 | to that school.
00:39:37.600 | So I think that's a family decision.
00:39:39.680 | If you live in an area where you're happy with the public schools, and there's a lot
00:39:43.560 | of great public schools on Long Island, we're very fortunate, extremely fortunate actually,
00:39:48.100 | then I would absolutely go with the public schools.
00:39:51.180 | There are people that live in certain areas, for example, you know, perhaps in the city
00:39:57.200 | where they prefer to go private as opposed to public or, you know, vice versa.
00:40:03.460 | It's very individualized based on what the family needs are.
00:40:07.380 | Yeah.
00:40:08.380 | And your thoughts, how does that extend to private versus public universities?
00:40:14.020 | And have you noticed any kind of difference when you're interviewing admissions officers
00:40:18.960 | from private or public universities?
00:40:23.480 | The first difference that stands out for me is basically the percentage of students that
00:40:27.160 | they're permitted to accept from out of state.
00:40:31.680 | Private schools, they have less restrictions.
00:40:34.600 | They could kind of do what their board of trustees told them to do.
00:40:38.520 | Whereas many of the state institutions, you know, it's a different governing body, I guess,
00:40:42.720 | from their states that tell them that, you know, you could only accept up to 30% or whatever
00:40:47.440 | the number is from out of state.
00:40:49.480 | So in my conversations, I've seen differences like that.
00:40:52.680 | But I guess, like I said earlier, there's over 4,000 colleges and universities.
00:40:56.920 | So it really comes down to there is no right answer.
00:41:00.720 | It's what is best for a family, you know, what is best for a particular family.
00:41:06.000 | Growing up, I said earlier, I went to a state school, SUNY Stony Brook here in the state
00:41:09.520 | of New York served me well.
00:41:11.560 | I always joke that I probably wouldn't get in at this point because that school too has
00:41:15.080 | become far more competitive.
00:41:17.400 | And both, you know, both of my daughters right now are in private schools.
00:41:20.320 | They're in small private schools up in Connecticut.
00:41:23.320 | And I wouldn't say there's no right or wrong, in my opinion.
00:41:27.280 | It's really what the individual family wants and also the student.
00:41:31.800 | My oldest daughter, initially, Sam, wanted to go to all the RARA schools.
00:41:36.120 | So we visited Penn State, the University of Maryland.
00:41:39.040 | And like you said earlier, I had such a great time visiting.
00:41:42.700 | And my daughter who thought she wanted to go to Penn State because of the RARA feel
00:41:47.320 | and everything was like a fish out of water when we actually visited and they were in
00:41:51.960 | session.
00:41:52.960 | We walked into a building that looked like an auditorium and she said, "Dad, what's this?"
00:41:55.800 | And I said, "Well, you see all these kids laid out in the hallway?
00:41:59.120 | That's because they don't want to go sit in this auditorium that probably has 500 seats
00:42:02.920 | in it, whatever it was, 400 seats."
00:42:04.960 | I said, "That's class.
00:42:06.080 | That's a lecture hall."
00:42:07.600 | And I could tell that my daughter was panicked.
00:42:09.880 | Then she realized that it was whatever, a six and a half hour drive from my house.
00:42:13.440 | P.S.
00:42:14.440 | She ended up in a mid-sized school but on the smaller end up in Connecticut.
00:42:21.640 | And there's no rhyme or reason.
00:42:23.280 | There's no right or wrong.
00:42:24.640 | Personally, if I had to go back, I'd love to go to Penn State.
00:42:27.200 | I would love the big school, the football, the RARA.
00:42:29.960 | I'd love to go to USC, UCLA.
00:42:33.040 | I would love that.
00:42:34.040 | It wasn't for my daughter.
00:42:35.040 | You're a different person now.
00:42:36.040 | You're a different person.
00:42:37.040 | Right.
00:42:38.040 | You're a different person because my daughter grew up in a suburb.
00:42:40.080 | I grew up in an urban area in the city.
00:42:43.640 | So people have different needs and different expectations.
00:42:47.040 | And again, there's no right or wrong.
00:42:48.300 | And that's the beauty of the college process.
00:42:50.400 | Let's focus on the positive.
00:42:52.160 | There's over 4,000 choices.
00:42:54.080 | There is something for everyone.
00:42:55.640 | You just have to have an open mind, do your research, and surely you'll find the right
00:43:01.000 | fit.
00:43:02.000 | Right.
00:43:03.000 | And now I'm wondering, so both of your daughters are in college now?
00:43:06.760 | Yes.
00:43:07.760 | But how has your level of worry changed when they were in high school to try to get into
00:43:14.160 | college and also now that they're in college, hopefully to get a job that they enjoy doing?
00:43:19.520 | Yeah.
00:43:20.520 | I think as a parent, speaking for myself, I feel like I'm maturing as they're growing
00:43:24.920 | up, right?
00:43:25.920 | The things that I was so worried about 10 years ago, five years ago, I'm not as worried
00:43:31.680 | anymore.
00:43:34.760 | As a parent, I'm always there for my children.
00:43:37.320 | One daughter is studying to be a teacher of mathematics.
00:43:40.520 | She just got her bachelor's degree last week, as a matter of fact.
00:43:43.960 | She just graduated.
00:43:44.960 | Congratulations.
00:43:45.960 | Thank you.
00:43:46.960 | And she's staying on one more year to have a four plus one program where you stay on
00:43:49.480 | one more year and she'll have her master's degree.
00:43:51.920 | My youngest, 15 minutes away from her sister, is studying to be a psychologist.
00:43:56.080 | And I'm just there to support what they want to do.
00:43:59.040 | I'm just happy that they're exploring, they're working hard.
00:44:03.920 | I just feel confident that they will find the right fit for them in terms of career.
00:44:09.760 | My little one, there was a moment where I wasn't sure that she was going to go to college.
00:44:13.960 | And here she is.
00:44:14.960 | And ironically, just last week, she told me that this was the best year academically that
00:44:18.680 | I've ever had in my life.
00:44:19.840 | That's awesome.
00:44:20.840 | So it's just being mature about it, being patient, continuing to be a supportive parent,
00:44:26.560 | doing the best that you can, the best that you know how.
00:44:29.640 | And I just believe it.
00:44:31.200 | I believe if you do good things, good things eventually will come back.
00:44:36.040 | You just have to believe in that.
00:44:37.880 | I really appreciate that perspective.
00:44:39.720 | I really appreciate how you said you are maturing as a parent, as your children mature as well.
00:44:46.120 | You know, because I'm 45 now.
00:44:47.840 | How old are you, John?
00:44:48.920 | I'm only 51.
00:44:49.920 | I'm just a little older than you, Sam.
00:44:51.560 | Not by much.
00:44:52.560 | Okay.
00:44:53.560 | No, no.
00:44:54.560 | That's good.
00:44:55.560 | So what I'm saying is when I was in my 20s, I thought, "Oh, when you're 40s, 50s, you're
00:44:58.440 | mature.
00:44:59.440 | You should know a lot of everything."
00:45:02.720 | But what I'm discovering is that we continue to mature.
00:45:05.040 | We continue to get wiser over the years.
00:45:10.120 | Now what's next for the cap?
00:45:12.360 | You told me that you've got 20 plus episodes in the pipeline.
00:45:16.000 | Is your goal to try to interview at least half of the 4,000 out there or the top 500?
00:45:23.040 | What's the goal?
00:45:24.040 | Well, the goal is definitely to continue.
00:45:25.920 | I'm going to definitely continue to interview college admissions representatives.
00:45:30.120 | And again, these are the people that are at the table.
00:45:32.040 | They're the ones who ultimately make the decisions or of course are on the team that make the
00:45:36.720 | decisions in the admissions offices.
00:45:39.480 | And I'm looking to do different things.
00:45:40.880 | There's one rep who is going to bring, for example, a nursing student on and we're going
00:45:44.640 | to have a conversation specific to students that are interested in nursing.
00:45:49.560 | There's a couple of panel discussions that I have with some particular schools, right
00:45:54.680 | in your neighborhood, by the way, out of California.
00:45:57.000 | So I'm going to do more panel discussions.
00:45:58.840 | And the next thing for the cap is that I'm going to be interviewing students that are
00:46:03.320 | actually in college to hear from them what their college journey was like.
00:46:08.520 | Yes, that'd be great.
00:46:10.320 | What was their top three?
00:46:11.500 | How did they get to their top three?
00:46:13.340 | What would they do differently?
00:46:15.120 | So that's going to be the next step as well.
00:46:16.960 | Shortly, I'm going to start more episodes where we're going to talk to students as well.
00:46:21.240 | Oh, I think that'd be fascinating to hear from students directly in the college, in
00:46:26.480 | the university.
00:46:27.480 | That's correct.
00:46:28.480 | Also, parents who were going through that process to help guide them on the way.
00:46:31.240 | I think that'd be fascinating.
00:46:32.960 | I agree.
00:46:33.960 | That's why I'm going to do it.
00:46:35.280 | And again, like I said at the beginning, I came up with this idea and it was funny because
00:46:40.440 | when I reached out to representatives and they said yes, that's when I panicked because
00:46:44.480 | I didn't know how to record virtually, how to edit, how do you get it on Spotify, Apple,
00:46:48.720 | Google, and all of that.
00:46:50.400 | So like any other good person, you go to Google and you learn so much, right?
00:46:53.960 | And so quickly.
00:46:55.440 | But I'm having so much fun.
00:46:57.280 | My analytics have exceeded my every expectation and people are listening and so I'm going
00:47:03.840 | to just keep going.
00:47:05.120 | It's just, I just love it.
00:47:07.440 | I just love helping people and I know how stressed I was as a parent and I'm someone
00:47:13.160 | that's in the field of education.
00:47:15.160 | So I can only imagine the parents out there that, again, they don't know the questions
00:47:19.440 | to ask necessarily.
00:47:20.840 | Maybe they're skeptical about reaching out to the rep.
00:47:22.640 | So that's the point of the podcast.
00:47:24.800 | It's me talking to reps and I don't get every question answered.
00:47:29.380 | But the point is, listen to the episode and hopefully that prompts you to come up with
00:47:34.360 | better follow-up questions so that when you meet with a rep, whether it's at a college
00:47:37.920 | tour or at your local college fair, you're going to be better prepared to ask good follow-up
00:47:45.000 | questions.
00:47:46.000 | Right, right.
00:47:47.000 | I have an interesting scenario analysis for you, John.
00:47:50.680 | That is, let's say there was a different time and 10 years from now, the CAP podcast
00:47:57.320 | has grown massive.
00:47:59.360 | It's got, I don't know, 100,000 downloads per episode or a million listens per month.
00:48:04.920 | It's the top 0.001% podcast in the world and the number one podcast about college admissions
00:48:12.800 | process.
00:48:14.280 | And then you had children, right?
00:48:17.600 | So you had teenage children who are applying to college.
00:48:22.200 | You're world famous.
00:48:23.200 | Every single college admissions officer knows you, parents, students, anybody who wants
00:48:26.360 | to go to college.
00:48:28.280 | How much would that, do you think that would help your daughters get into a top school?
00:48:36.080 | Everybody knows who you are.
00:48:37.080 | They're like, "Wow, if we admit John's daughters, we can get mentioned and have a good experience."
00:48:43.400 | And he knows what it's all about.
00:48:47.120 | So it's funny.
00:48:48.120 | I just interviewed the director of admissions at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
00:48:53.920 | And one of the examples that he gave was that some people think that, you know, obviously
00:49:00.920 | it's in Chicago.
00:49:02.340 | Some people think that getting a letter from Barack Obama, who obviously has a lot of ties
00:49:06.760 | to Chicago or Michael Jordan, right?
00:49:10.000 | Who obviously has ties to Chicago.
00:49:12.600 | So what he said was, all that means is that either they know Michael Jordan or Barack
00:49:18.600 | Obama or they know someone who knows them.
00:49:20.640 | He said, from the admissions perspective, it means nothing.
00:49:23.600 | So he said it.
00:49:25.880 | You got to listen to him.
00:49:26.880 | No way.
00:49:27.880 | Wait, what university is this?
00:49:28.880 | University of Chicago?
00:49:29.880 | University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
00:49:30.880 | Oh, yeah.
00:49:31.880 | Yeah.
00:49:32.880 | Nah, really?
00:49:33.880 | He said that in the episode.
00:49:34.880 | And so, you know, I have no false hopes.
00:49:37.760 | I do want to cultivate the podcast, but thank God my daughters are already in college.
00:49:43.640 | Who knows?
00:49:44.640 | Maybe one day it will help my grandchildren.
00:49:45.640 | Right.
00:49:46.640 | I mean, that's the way to think about it.
00:49:48.440 | You keep extending the future.
00:49:50.240 | I'm going to take the – I'm going to believe that having a letter from Barack Obama or
00:49:54.400 | Michael Jordan will help because let's say you're really good friends with them, one
00:49:58.000 | of them, like, "Hey, Barack, can you come speak to my class?
00:50:01.080 | Can you drop in or give a commencement?"
00:50:03.600 | And the school doesn't have to pay you a hundred grand or whatever that is, right?
00:50:06.320 | I don't know.
00:50:07.320 | But, yes, I would say helping people, being known in a positive way is a positive for
00:50:16.320 | your children.
00:50:18.520 | And so what you're doing I think is definitely a positive for, yeah, maybe your future grandchildren.
00:50:23.280 | Great to think about that because in personal finance, as soon as you start saving and investing
00:50:28.920 | for something and if that something is your child, your most valuable asset, I think you
00:50:33.600 | get much more motivated.
00:50:34.600 | And if you get to the point where you have enough and then you start thinking, "Well,
00:50:38.800 | what's the point?"
00:50:39.800 | Well, if you have grandchildren, you're blessed with them, you might start getting
00:50:43.080 | motivated again.
00:50:44.720 | Absolutely.
00:50:45.720 | Absolutely.
00:50:46.720 | But for me, it's helping people, right?
00:50:49.240 | And I know that we talk about money and saving and it's important.
00:50:52.880 | Yes, you need money to live.
00:50:54.880 | So it's very important, especially the cost of living in California, the cost of living
00:50:59.480 | in New York.
00:51:00.480 | It's very expensive.
00:51:01.800 | For me, I get very excited at the fact that I'm helping people.
00:51:06.520 | The number of downloads, again, far exceeded my every expectation.
00:51:10.720 | And so this is something that I'm never going to stop.
00:51:13.360 | I'm just never going to stop because 100 years from now, Sam, guess what?
00:51:18.400 | You and I and everyone listening, we're probably not going to be here anymore, right?
00:51:22.400 | And so while we're here, in addition to, yes, planning for our futures and being financially
00:51:27.160 | literate and all of that, but we might as well, while we're here, help each other.
00:51:32.000 | And to me, there's nothing more important and that's why I do what I do.
00:51:35.480 | Absolutely.
00:51:36.480 | So if you were a high school student, John, and I was an admissions officer at a top school,
00:51:41.520 | I think I would accept you.
00:51:45.200 | I don't actually care about your grades too much.
00:51:47.080 | If you got a B or higher or 1,000 on the SAT or higher, but because you're doing this,
00:51:52.400 | I would say, "You know what?
00:51:53.640 | You're unique in doing this and I think you're committed.
00:51:56.040 | You're going to gut it out and you're going to help a lot of people as you continue."
00:51:59.480 | So I would definitely accept you.
00:52:01.720 | Well, I appreciate that, Sam.
00:52:03.400 | And Sam, you're doing awesome work as well, by the way.
00:52:05.560 | I have listened to some of your episodes.
00:52:07.600 | You're awesome.
00:52:08.600 | I wish that my family as a whole, I wish we were more financial literate as you seem to
00:52:15.080 | be with the work that you're doing.
00:52:16.800 | So keep going because people need you as well.
00:52:19.320 | I appreciate that.
00:52:20.880 | So in closing, we've covered a lot.
00:52:23.620 | Any final tips for parents or students in the college admissions process with their
00:52:28.680 | children and where can people find you?
00:52:32.440 | So they could find me, my website is collegeadmissionstalk.com.
00:52:37.120 | My email address is collegeadmissionstalk@gmail.com.
00:52:42.520 | And the name of the podcast is The College Admissions Process Podcast, which could be
00:52:47.480 | found anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Google, and what have you.
00:52:52.520 | And so my final advice is start early if you can.
00:52:56.700 | And what I said in the beginning in terms of recognizing what each part of the application
00:53:01.160 | represents and how it's a marketing package where each piece has to build upon the next.
00:53:06.400 | And be mindful, as we said a couple of times throughout the episode, of what you control.
00:53:11.000 | You know, you do control starting early and working hard on your activity sheet, your
00:53:15.480 | transcript, your essay, and all of the other parts.
00:53:18.880 | And then there are institutional needs that we don't control.
00:53:21.680 | So just be mindful of that and start early as a family to talk about the financial needs
00:53:28.960 | of the family and whether or not you want to be far away, close, big, small, you know,
00:53:34.920 | and all of those questions.
00:53:36.560 | And good luck to everybody.
00:53:37.740 | Good luck to everybody.
00:53:38.740 | And I hope to see you on the podcast.
00:53:40.440 | All right.
00:53:41.440 | Well, thanks a lot, John.
00:53:43.000 | And I appreciate your time.
00:53:44.000 | I really, really appreciate all the wisdom you've provided.
00:53:47.280 | Well, thank you so much, Sam.
00:53:48.880 | You're doing great work.
00:53:49.880 | It was an honor and a pleasure to be here today.
00:53:51.960 | Good luck to everybody and all that you're doing out there.
00:53:54.760 | Thank you.
00:53:56.120 | Take care.
00:53:56.400 | [BLANK_AUDIO]