James Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love

00:00:00.000 | we have been encouraged culturally to criticize

00:00:03.400 | people we're in long-term relationships with.

00:00:05.480 | Not new relationships, new relationships,

00:00:07.840 | put the person on a pedestal,

00:00:09.360 | you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful.

00:00:11.520 | But every trope out there in every form of popular media

00:00:15.120 | is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband

00:00:17.680 | and the husband being like,

00:00:18.600 | oh, there's loathsome Harpy that castrated me.

00:00:21.680 | As if like people are just passive players in their lives.

00:00:25.360 | And I think that is an incredibly toxic message

00:00:30.120 | to send to people,

00:00:30.960 | that this is how we should be relating to our partner.

00:00:33.320 | Like we should not,

00:00:34.360 | you don't take the piss out of your partner

00:00:36.360 | in front of people.

00:00:37.360 | Like the successful relationships I've seen

00:00:40.240 | are where people are just cheering for their partner,

00:00:43.280 | where they are thick as thieves,

00:00:44.840 | where there is just this feeling of like,

00:00:46.560 | man, they like each other.

00:00:48.800 | Like they got each other's back,

00:00:50.640 | like you wouldn't believe.

00:00:51.600 | Like man, you could take sides against anybody,

00:00:54.840 | but take sides against their partner, you're going down.

00:00:58.920 | Like, and that, when you see a couple that has that,

00:01:03.280 | you just, you know, that's so hard to break.

00:01:07.040 | But I think that comes from having like a steadfast,

00:01:12.040 | yeah, no, I don't do that.

00:01:15.280 | Like I don't shit talk my partner.

00:01:17.880 | Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me.

00:01:21.000 | You know, like, and that to me is,

00:01:23.600 | because I think we're just so criticized by the world.

00:01:26.120 | The world is so full of criticism.

00:01:27.680 | We criticize ourselves so harshly

00:01:30.000 | that having a partner who no matter what is like,

00:01:34.080 | you've got this, I'm with you.

00:01:36.440 | Like you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up.

00:01:38.240 | I see it.

00:01:39.080 | Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots.

00:01:40.640 | You screwed up, but you know what?

00:01:41.480 | People screw up sometimes.

00:01:42.680 | You got a right to screw up.

00:01:43.520 | A lot of people screw up.

00:01:44.400 | Come on, get up, let's go.

00:01:45.680 | I know you have it in you.

00:01:47.000 | If you have that person, like,

00:01:49.400 | I feel like that's a superpower.

00:01:52.680 | (air whooshing)

00:01:54.720 | - The following is a conversation with James Sexton,

00:01:57.280 | divorce attorney and author of "How to Stay in Love,

00:02:00.240 | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together."

00:02:03.080 | As a trial lawyer, James for over two decades

00:02:06.080 | has negotiated and litigated

00:02:08.320 | a huge number of high conflict divorces.

00:02:10.960 | This has given him a deep understanding

00:02:13.520 | of how relationships fail and how they can succeed.

00:02:17.120 | And bigger than that, the role of love and pain

00:02:20.760 | in this whole messy rollercoaster ride we call life.

00:02:25.040 | This is the Alex Friedman Podcast.

00:02:26.920 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:02:29.080 | in the description.

00:02:30.440 | And now, dear friends, here's James Sexton.

00:02:33.960 | What is the most common reason that marriages fail?

00:02:38.200 | - That's a great question, but it's a question

00:02:40.440 | that everybody wants there to be a simple answer.

00:02:42.480 | Like, they want me to say cheating or money

00:02:46.240 | or, you know, the internet.

00:02:48.720 | But the reality is, I think it's a lot of little things.

00:02:53.720 | It's disconnection, that would be my answer.

00:02:56.440 | The reason marriages fail is disconnection.

00:02:59.000 | What causes disconnection?

00:03:01.600 | That's the bigger and I think more important question

00:03:04.320 | because like Tom Wolfe said about bankruptcy,

00:03:07.600 | it happens very slowly and then all at once.

00:03:09.880 | Disconnection happens very slowly and then all at once.

00:03:13.480 | So most of the time what I think people want

00:03:16.040 | is an answer like cheating.

00:03:20.040 | But cheating is the big all at once thing.

00:03:23.720 | How did we get to the place where cheating

00:03:25.680 | was even something you were thinking about doing

00:03:27.920 | or that you would think about and then cross the line

00:03:30.280 | from thought into action?

00:03:32.160 | And that's, I think, the big question.

00:03:34.400 | So disconnection would be my answer.

00:03:36.000 | - Do you think it's possible to introspect,

00:03:38.320 | like looking backwards for every individual case

00:03:40.840 | where the disconnection began and how it evolved?

00:03:43.360 | - Sure, yeah.

00:03:44.400 | This is such a multivariate equation.

00:03:47.240 | It's a dance, it's a chemistry.

00:03:50.880 | What did you do and what did the other person do?

00:03:54.680 | And see, the interesting thing about being a divorce lawyer

00:03:58.040 | is I'm weaponizing intimacy in a courtroom.

00:04:02.160 | So I'm telling, it's full context storytelling,

00:04:05.280 | what I do for a living.

00:04:06.520 | So what I do is I take my client's story

00:04:10.440 | and I have to present it to a judge

00:04:12.520 | and make my client the hero in every way

00:04:15.560 | and the other side the villain in every way.

00:04:17.640 | Now I have to be careful not to do that

00:04:20.120 | in a manner that loses credibility

00:04:22.360 | because even a judge would know,

00:04:24.120 | even a judge is smart enough to know

00:04:25.640 | that no one's all good or all bad.

00:04:28.520 | But only if you were reverse engineering a relationship

00:04:32.880 | and saying, how did this break?

00:04:34.960 | You really have to look at both people,

00:04:37.160 | the good and the bad, what each of them did

00:04:41.000 | that moved the dial in these different directions.

00:04:43.600 | And I think that that's very hard

00:04:46.440 | for anyone going through a divorce

00:04:48.320 | to do about their own relationship.

00:04:50.320 | We don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish.

00:04:52.800 | Like if you're in it, I don't think you see it clearly.

00:04:55.800 | I think as a divorce lawyer,

00:04:57.480 | whose job is to really drill down on the facts

00:05:01.700 | and figure out what's going on in this story,

00:05:04.000 | I have to look at both sides.

00:05:06.320 | So I have to think a lot about my own arguments,

00:05:08.040 | but I also have to think about

00:05:08.920 | what's the other lawyer's argument going to be,

00:05:11.640 | especially in custody cases.

00:05:12.960 | So I really have been forced to look at both sides

00:05:17.600 | for so many years, so deeply in relationships

00:05:21.880 | that once you do that, it's very,

00:05:24.280 | you realize that the good guy, bad guy thing

00:05:26.080 | just doesn't apply.

00:05:27.040 | - I wonder if it's the little things

00:05:28.400 | or a few big things that caused this connection,

00:05:32.620 | whether it's, I mean, you've talked about

00:05:34.160 | granola and blowjobs, but those seem to be stories

00:05:37.800 | that you can tell to yourself.

00:05:39.880 | Maybe that story should be explained, or maybe not.

00:05:46.160 | - You don't think granola and blowjobs

00:05:47.240 | is self-explanatory?

00:05:48.120 | - Almost.

00:05:49.120 | I think people can construct a good,

00:05:50.760 | like if you ask GPT, what do they mean?

00:05:53.120 | I think the story that would come up is a pretty good one.

00:05:55.380 | But that's a story you tell about when you first knew

00:06:00.280 | it's the disconnection has begun,

00:06:03.040 | is when he stopped buying my favorite granola

00:06:06.440 | or when she stopped giving blowjobs.

00:06:09.200 | - I would say when it's reached like a critical mass.

00:06:12.800 | - Yeah, phase shift.

00:06:14.360 | - Because I think it started before that,

00:06:16.240 | when she said, "Yeah, I used to give him blowjobs."

00:06:19.420 | And when we were in our early relationship,

00:06:21.760 | and then one day I just was like,

00:06:23.080 | "Oh, well, we don't have as much time.

00:06:24.960 | "I'll wait until later and we'll have sex

00:06:26.280 | "and then we both enjoy it."

00:06:27.280 | - Blowjobs are inefficient.

00:06:29.040 | - Yeah, exactly correct.

00:06:30.840 | - You batch it all together.

00:06:31.680 | - Yeah, so she said, "Well, exactly."

00:06:33.040 | And they had kids at that point,

00:06:34.280 | so I think she really was like,

00:06:35.240 | "Hey, we've gotten a certain window,

00:06:37.240 | "so let's have something we both enjoy."

00:06:39.480 | So I don't think she had any negative intentions there.

00:06:43.920 | I think that she was working in good faith

00:06:46.640 | towards the betterment of the relationship,

00:06:48.440 | but it was having this second order effect.

00:06:51.680 | And so I really do think that,

00:06:56.680 | yeah, the blowjobs, granola.

00:06:58.320 | I mean, anyone who's been in a long-term relationship,

00:07:02.640 | I guess it's just worth asking the question,

00:07:05.320 | what does this person do that makes me feel loved?

00:07:11.280 | Because I think it's very interesting

00:07:15.440 | in my own experience in life.

00:07:17.320 | Remember, I had a difficult chapter with one of my sons,

00:07:21.520 | my younger son when he was in his early 20s,

00:07:24.640 | and we were having a heartfelt conversation.

00:07:27.440 | And I said to him, "Do you know I love you?"

00:07:31.160 | And he said, "Well, yeah, of course I do."

00:07:32.280 | I said, "But do you feel my love?

00:07:34.240 | "Like, do you feel it?

00:07:36.120 | "Not just do you know it intellectually, do you feel it?"

00:07:39.280 | And I remember thinking to myself,

00:07:41.600 | when do we feel someone's love, right?

00:07:44.200 | Like, what is it that they do?

00:07:45.640 | And sometimes it's the weirdest, silliest things

00:07:48.520 | that they would never know.

00:07:50.800 | They are the person who's showing us that they love us

00:07:53.520 | and that we're feeling their love.

00:07:54.800 | They would never show us.

00:07:56.400 | Like, if you said, "Why does this person love you?"

00:07:59.800 | They wouldn't say, "Oh, 'cause I always make sure

00:08:02.240 | "that when the paper comes, I bring it

00:08:03.840 | "from the bottom of the driveway to the door

00:08:05.840 | "so they don't have to go out and get it."

00:08:07.880 | Or, "I always hold the door for them."

00:08:09.400 | Or, "I always, like, again, I buy the granola

00:08:12.920 | "that I know this person likes."

00:08:15.040 | Or, "I remembered that they don't like it

00:08:17.960 | "when I put on this particular record,

00:08:20.680 | "so I don't put it on."

00:08:22.120 | Yes, they're small things, but they're not small.

00:08:27.760 | They're kind of everything.

00:08:29.080 | - Do you think it's good to communicate that stuff?

00:08:31.440 | - Well, 100%.

00:08:33.840 | - It takes away some of the power of it, right?

00:08:36.000 | - When you point it out, then the person realizes,

00:08:39.960 | "Oh, okay, he likes this or dislikes this."

00:08:41.840 | So, yes, there becomes a deliberateness to it,

00:08:44.320 | you know, a conscious.

00:08:46.080 | So, I understand not pointing that out

00:08:49.160 | when it's a good thing.

00:08:50.840 | I think when it's a negative thing.

00:08:54.400 | Like, I think in the granola situation,

00:08:58.160 | if she had said to him,

00:09:00.320 | "Hey, you used to do this and you've stopped.

00:09:05.400 | "That feels like something to me."

00:09:07.640 | Like, she said, she didn't say anything about that,

00:09:09.680 | just like he probably didn't say anything

00:09:10.800 | about the blowjobs.

00:09:11.920 | Like, I think if there had been a moment of,

00:09:15.320 | "This is starting, let's talk about it while it's starting."

00:09:19.720 | But people wait, from what I can see,

00:09:21.680 | people wait until the big thing happens,

00:09:24.600 | the financial impropriety, the substance use disorder,

00:09:27.240 | the cheating, they wait for that to happen,

00:09:30.000 | and then they go, "Where did we go wrong?"

00:09:33.120 | And the answer is, "Quite a while ago, with the granola."

00:09:37.280 | - Yeah, yeah, so when you notice something,

00:09:42.000 | like you notice that little something,

00:09:43.960 | talk about it.

00:09:46.400 | 'Cause that little something is probably a kernel

00:09:50.240 | of a deeper truth.

00:09:51.400 | Of course, there's also moods.

00:09:53.120 | We're all like a rollercoaster of emotions,

00:09:55.000 | so you can not bring a granola one day

00:09:58.320 | just because you're in this place

00:10:01.120 | where just nothing is, just cynicism everywhere,

00:10:04.760 | just anger and so on.

00:10:06.400 | But it's a temporary feeling.

00:10:07.800 | But maybe that temporary feeling is grounded

00:10:10.160 | in some other deeper current that's actually building up.

00:10:13.560 | - Yeah, and I think a good partner

00:10:16.280 | wants to understand the currents of their partner.

00:10:19.880 | They wanna understand, like,

00:10:21.200 | "Hey, are you going through something?"

00:10:22.840 | And look, if I'm the one you need to take it out on,

00:10:25.360 | that's okay.

00:10:26.520 | I'm a big boy.

00:10:27.400 | I can take it.

00:10:28.720 | If you're hormonal, if you're frustrated at work,

00:10:32.280 | if you're whatever, we should be able

00:10:33.840 | to have a little bit of that interaction in a relationship.

00:10:38.520 | But I do think it's so easy to just say to people,

00:10:42.720 | "Oh, communication is the key."

00:10:44.680 | But it really is about fearless kinds of communication.

00:10:49.400 | It's about really honestly saying to somebody,

00:10:52.080 | "This feels like something to me.

00:10:56.800 | Am I wrong?

00:10:57.640 | Like, this just feels like something to me."

00:10:59.520 | And also how that's presented.

00:11:01.000 | I mean, one of the things I'm very caught up on

00:11:06.000 | or feel very strongly about

00:11:09.160 | is that we have been encouraged culturally

00:11:12.480 | to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with.

00:11:16.160 | Not new relationships.

00:11:17.120 | New relationships, you put the person on a pedestal,

00:11:20.080 | you're allowed to just, "Oh, they're wonderful."

00:11:22.240 | But every trope out there in every form of popular media

00:11:25.840 | is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband

00:11:28.360 | and the husband being like,

00:11:29.200 | "Oh, this loathsome harpy that castrated me."

00:11:32.400 | As if people are just passive players in their lives.

00:11:36.080 | And I think that is an incredibly toxic message

00:11:40.840 | to send to people,

00:11:41.680 | that this is how we should be relating to our partner.

00:11:44.040 | Like we should not,

00:11:45.080 | you don't take the piss out of your partner

00:11:47.040 | in front of people.

00:11:48.080 | Like the successful relationships I've seen

00:11:50.960 | are where people are just cheering for their partner,

00:11:53.980 | where they are thick as thieves,

00:11:55.560 | where there is just this feeling of like,

00:11:57.200 | "Man, they like each other.

00:11:59.520 | Like they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe.

00:12:02.320 | Like man, you could take sides against anybody,

00:12:05.520 | but take sides against their partner, you're going down."

00:12:09.560 | Like, and that, when you see a couple that has that,

00:12:13.960 | you just, that's so hard to break.

00:12:17.680 | But I think that comes from having like a steadfast,

00:12:22.680 | "Yeah, no, I don't do that.

00:12:25.920 | Like I don't shit talk my partner.

00:12:28.480 | Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me."

00:12:31.480 | You know, like, and that to me is,

00:12:34.200 | because I think we're just so criticized by the world.

00:12:36.720 | The world is so full of criticism.

00:12:38.280 | We criticize ourselves so harshly

00:12:40.600 | that having a partner who no matter what is like,

00:12:44.600 | "You've got this, I'm with you.

00:12:47.040 | Like you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up.

00:12:48.840 | I see it.

00:12:49.680 | Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots.

00:12:51.240 | You screwed up, but you know what?

00:12:52.080 | People screw up sometimes.

00:12:53.280 | You got a right to screw up.

00:12:54.120 | A lot of people screw up.

00:12:55.000 | Come on, get up, let's go.

00:12:56.240 | I know you have it in you."

00:12:57.600 | If you have that person, like that,

00:13:00.000 | I feel like that's a superpower

00:13:02.920 | to have that effect on another person.

00:13:04.920 | - Yeah, one of the things I love seeing,

00:13:07.000 | when you look at a couple and one is talking,

00:13:10.220 | like in an interview, answering a question,

00:13:14.040 | especially like intellectual questions,

00:13:16.520 | like, "What do you think about the war in Ukraine?"

00:13:19.480 | or something, and then the partner is talking,

00:13:22.520 | and the other person is looking at them

00:13:26.200 | as if they're hearing the wisest thing ever.

00:13:29.360 | Like they're still looking at them,

00:13:32.040 | not waiting for their turn to speak,

00:13:33.880 | not thinking about how's the audience going to take that,

00:13:36.160 | but they're looking at them like,

00:13:38.000 | "Goddamn, I'm so lucky to be with this smart motherfucker."

00:13:43.000 | - But there's a scene-

00:13:44.440 | - And they could be saying the dumbest shit ever.

00:13:46.000 | - There's a scene in the movie "True Romance."

00:13:48.080 | - Yes, I love "True Romance."

00:13:48.920 | - I love the movie, great movie.

00:13:50.240 | Gary Oldman scene's like the greatest scene ever done

00:13:52.320 | in a film with Christian Slater.

00:13:55.020 | But there's a scene in it where she holds up a sign

00:13:58.040 | to Christian Slater, and it says, "You're so cool."

00:14:01.200 | And I, like, man, like, that's it.

00:14:04.480 | That's it.

00:14:05.840 | I've always, I think I say it somewhere in the book

00:14:07.640 | that, you know, you go to weddings

00:14:09.800 | and like when the bride walks in, you know,

00:14:12.880 | everybody's looking at the bride, it's her show.

00:14:14.760 | You know, everybody turns around,

00:14:15.800 | it's the first glimpse everybody gets of the bride.

00:14:18.160 | And I never look at the bride.

00:14:20.160 | I always look at the groom looking at the bride.

00:14:22.840 | Because there's this, like, to me, that's every,

00:14:28.160 | like, he has this look, like,

00:14:29.720 | this, 'cause this is the first time he's seeing her

00:14:31.440 | in the dress most of the time.

00:14:32.680 | And also he's seeing her like,

00:14:34.640 | "Holy shit, she's coming down the aisle,

00:14:36.000 | "we're getting married."

00:14:36.840 | Like, but this is it.

00:14:37.680 | And everyone's looking at her.

00:14:39.160 | And I always look at him, 'cause I always think to myself,

00:14:42.640 | like, the look on his face is like,

00:14:45.720 | that's like this feeling of like, "Holy, yeah, wow, okay."

00:14:48.600 | Like, that's, everyone's looking at her and she's mine.

00:14:51.600 | And she's coming up here and we're getting married.

00:14:53.280 | And I feel like, yeah, like that kind of adoration.

00:14:58.280 | Like, I think that's the look we're describing

00:15:00.240 | is like adoration, like that the words coming

00:15:02.400 | out of their mouth, that they're like,

00:15:03.960 | "Yeah, that's mine, that one's mine."

00:15:05.800 | You know, that's such a great thing.

00:15:08.120 | Like, it's such a great feeling.

00:15:09.520 | - Seeing the good stuff, like with "True Romance,"

00:15:12.360 | I mean, you could make fun of the guys,

00:15:15.400 | totally cringe wearing Elvis,

00:15:17.520 | like essentially being a fake Elvis with shades.

00:15:20.320 | And like, what is he doing?

00:15:22.960 | It's like watching these Kung Fu movies.

00:15:25.360 | But from her perspective and from any perspective

00:15:28.320 | you could take on him is this is the baddest motherfucker

00:15:31.440 | who's ever lived.

00:15:33.040 | Like, he's willing to do those things for me,

00:15:35.240 | but not like, it's almost like an epic heroic figure.

00:15:39.800 | And we're living in this epic hero story.

00:15:43.680 | - And what does that do to him though?

00:15:45.960 | That's what, see, that's the point.

00:15:48.120 | Like, if there was a point to this,

00:15:51.400 | to this whole thing, this whole couple thing,

00:15:54.360 | isn't that it?

00:15:56.080 | Like, I don't understand this idea of, you know,

00:16:00.560 | we had a successful marriage.

00:16:02.120 | We were married for 50 something years.

00:16:04.360 | We were miserable for 47 of them, but we hung in there.

00:16:07.120 | Like, this is an endurance event?

00:16:09.680 | Like the primary relationship of your life,

00:16:11.880 | you've decided you're gonna turn

00:16:13.920 | into like a 50 mile trail race.

00:16:17.640 | Like, why?

00:16:18.480 | Why would you do that?

00:16:19.440 | Like, congratulations, you took the concept of monogamy

00:16:23.880 | and made it something that two people

00:16:25.680 | are absolutely not gonna enjoy, but you hung in there.

00:16:28.160 | Like, congratulations.

00:16:29.280 | And I understand there's religious perspectives

00:16:31.320 | that say, well, it's a sacred covenant,

00:16:32.600 | but I have a real chicken or the egg problem with that.

00:16:35.560 | Because I think it was like, well,

00:16:36.480 | how do we sell this incredibly stupid concept

00:16:40.040 | that isn't working to people?

00:16:41.640 | I know, we'll tell them God says you have to.

00:16:43.800 | And we'll sign on for that.

00:16:45.160 | I don't buy it.

00:16:47.000 | I don't buy it anymore.

00:16:48.120 | I really, 'cause when you see a successful marriage

00:16:53.120 | or you see two, even without a marriage,

00:16:54.920 | you see a pair bond, you see a couple

00:16:57.360 | that really love each other and cheer for each other

00:16:59.880 | in that way and like hang on each other's words that way

00:17:03.600 | and like are just in each other's corner that way.

00:17:07.000 | You see the fake shit instantly.

00:17:10.240 | Like you see the difference right away.

00:17:12.920 | It's like, if you, you know, the first time I've,

00:17:14.520 | this is the first time I've come to Austin.

00:17:16.720 | I've thought I'd eaten a lot of barbecue in my life.

00:17:19.680 | I've never had Texas barbecue.

00:17:22.160 | I landed, I went and had barbecue.

00:17:24.280 | I was like, okay, I've never had barbecue before.

00:17:25.800 | Apparently this is a whole different thing.

00:17:28.960 | I think it's the same thing.

00:17:30.000 | I think it's like, once you see real love,

00:17:33.080 | like real love, and I mean romantic love,

00:17:36.080 | like real love like that, real bond, real,

00:17:38.880 | you go, oh yeah, this other thing's not gonna do it.

00:17:41.520 | - Do you think that's a daily deliberate choice

00:17:44.080 | that a couple like that makes?

00:17:46.440 | 'Cause it feels like a very easy to do deliberate step.

00:17:51.080 | Like choose to see the brilliant in it,

00:17:55.400 | the beautiful in it.

00:17:56.520 | And almost immediately everything shifts

00:17:58.880 | and it becomes this momentum

00:18:00.240 | where all you see is the beautiful

00:18:01.880 | and all you see is the brilliant.

00:18:03.440 | - That is a conscious choice.

00:18:04.840 | I think approaching life that way is a conscious choice.

00:18:07.800 | Approaching any relationship that way is a conscious choice.

00:18:10.400 | I mean, looking at someone who hurts you

00:18:14.160 | or does something hurtful to you

00:18:16.560 | and thinking about what's going on in their life,

00:18:19.420 | that they're doing that or what's happening with them.

00:18:21.200 | Yeah, that's a very conscious choice.

00:18:22.880 | And I think a better one,

00:18:25.400 | a better one than seething in animosity

00:18:27.560 | and letting that eat you alive.

00:18:28.880 | But I don't know that it's,

00:18:31.880 | I don't think it should be so difficult.

00:18:35.240 | Like with our children, with our pets,

00:18:38.840 | we don't have this problem.

00:18:40.680 | Like you never have someone look at their dog

00:18:43.560 | who they've had for eight years and go,

00:18:45.920 | I gotta get a new dog.

00:18:47.160 | Like I've had this one for eight years.

00:18:49.220 | Like I gotta get, like puppies are so cute.

00:18:51.800 | What am I doing with this old dog?

00:18:53.480 | Like it's the total opposite.

00:18:55.920 | They're like, oh my God, this is like my dog.

00:18:57.920 | This is my dog.

00:18:58.760 | Like the smell of the dog is like, this is my dog's smell.

00:19:01.720 | The bad habits of the dog.

00:19:02.680 | You're like, that's my stupid dog that does stupid things.

00:19:05.760 | And it's not like that has to be a conscious,

00:19:07.280 | like they wake up every day and go,

00:19:08.100 | I should be grateful for the dog.

00:19:09.320 | Like it's just visceral, it's in them.

00:19:11.800 | You know, and so, and your children, like people's children.

00:19:15.200 | You know, it's why people are like not aware

00:19:17.560 | of how annoying their children are

00:19:19.800 | because they're not annoying to them.

00:19:21.080 | Like I get it.

00:19:21.920 | Like to you, the sound of your kids shrieking is like,

00:19:26.520 | oh, my kid's having a good time.

00:19:28.360 | And you don't get, and see when I hear that,

00:19:33.000 | I try to hear it with those ears.

00:19:34.480 | Like, oh, that, like I'm a parent, I get it.

00:19:36.640 | My kids are adults now, but like, I get it.

00:19:38.440 | Like, so when I hear a kid shrieking,

00:19:39.880 | I just am like, ah, like to that parent,

00:19:42.000 | that's the sound of that kid having a great time and good.

00:19:44.060 | Like, it's so nice that that's in the world.

00:19:46.320 | But it, so for me, it has to be conscious.

00:19:48.560 | For that parent, I don't think it has to be conscious.

00:19:50.520 | So I think it would be great

00:19:53.920 | if it didn't have to be a conscious practice.

00:19:57.000 | But I wonder if like anything in meditation or mindfulness,

00:20:01.120 | it's a matter of exercising that way of seeing.

00:20:05.840 | And then once you've come to that,

00:20:09.020 | it does itself, right?

00:20:12.040 | Like it really does.

00:20:13.400 | Like you're, I think it's,

00:20:15.880 | it initially has to be a conscious practice.

00:20:19.440 | And by the way, it's easier to make it a conscious practice

00:20:24.440 | before it started to fade, right?

00:20:28.680 | Like the, I mean, that's what's so amazing about marriage

00:20:32.360 | is there's like almost 8 billion people in the world

00:20:36.200 | and you're picking this one.

00:20:37.680 | So when you marry, in theory,

00:20:40.520 | like the stock's at its highest,

00:20:42.960 | like you're as crazy about each other

00:20:44.640 | as you could possibly be.

00:20:46.680 | So that's the time to get into this mindfulness,

00:20:49.320 | to get into this practice.

00:20:51.040 | Not once it's like the wheels are starting to come off.

00:20:53.280 | It's much harder.

00:20:54.120 | It's like gaining a bunch of weight and then saying,

00:20:55.440 | okay, how am I gonna lose the weight now?

00:20:57.520 | - Well, I think that even before marriage,

00:20:59.480 | like right away, just see everything is beautiful.

00:21:02.240 | Let me quote BoJack Horseman on this.

00:21:04.520 | When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses,

00:21:06.760 | all the red flags just look like flags.

00:21:09.440 | - That's great.

00:21:10.280 | - There's a certain sense where

00:21:12.840 | if you from the very beginning,

00:21:14.480 | of course you could end up in toxic relationships that way,

00:21:17.480 | but life is short.

00:21:20.200 | You're gonna die eventually.

00:21:22.160 | Might as well really go all in on relationships.

00:21:25.440 | - There's a line in "Drugstore Cowboy,"

00:21:27.760 | it's a great film, where he says,

00:21:29.560 | "We played a game you couldn't win to the utmost."

00:21:32.240 | And I think everything,

00:21:36.160 | I think life is a game you can't win.

00:21:38.680 | And so you play it to the utmost.

00:21:40.640 | Like to love anything is insane

00:21:44.480 | because you are accepting that you're going to lose it.

00:21:47.720 | Like I'm a dog person.

00:21:49.560 | And you get a dog

00:21:52.760 | and you've just resigned yourself to unbelievable pain

00:21:57.400 | because this thing's gonna die

00:21:59.120 | in like 10 years, maybe 15 if you're lucky.

00:22:02.480 | And why would you open your heart to that?

00:22:05.080 | Why would you let,

00:22:06.080 | because the joy is just so wonderful of it,

00:22:08.600 | of the ride up until it.

00:22:10.360 | Same thing with us.

00:22:11.200 | I mean, every marriage, every relationship,

00:22:12.960 | every love is gonna end.

00:22:14.080 | It's gonna end in death or divorce.

00:22:15.720 | So why not just go in?

00:22:19.920 | Like go in.

00:22:20.960 | Like go in and just get weird.

00:22:23.880 | Don't define it the way that's,

00:22:25.720 | I mean, look at, again,

00:22:26.760 | we keep going back to "True Romance,"

00:22:28.000 | but just get weird.

00:22:29.880 | Like, yeah, I love this Elvis pretending to be weirdo.

00:22:33.120 | I love this former sex worker who's like, whatever.

00:22:37.280 | Like just go in.

00:22:38.760 | Love this person, have them love you.

00:22:41.000 | Don't worry about what everybody else is doing

00:22:43.040 | in their relationship.

00:22:44.160 | Like we're in such, I mean, it's not to me surprising

00:22:46.440 | that as the performative aspects of life

00:22:50.400 | on social media increases,

00:22:52.800 | people's satisfaction with their relationships

00:22:54.840 | and the divorce rate is following the same trend

00:22:59.000 | because I think everyone's going,

00:23:01.920 | well, what's everybody else doing?

00:23:03.480 | You know, well, how much sex is everyone else having?

00:23:06.440 | The only two people that should worry

00:23:07.960 | about how much sex you're having are the two people.

00:23:09.840 | If the two people are happy in the relationship, great.

00:23:12.080 | Then what does it matter?

00:23:12.920 | It doesn't matter what everybody else is doing.

00:23:14.640 | - Yeah, there should be an element to great relationships

00:23:17.040 | and great friendships of like, fuck the world.

00:23:19.160 | It's us versus the world. - Yeah, it's us.

00:23:20.680 | It's us.

00:23:21.880 | And that's what I mean when I say that thick as thieves,

00:23:24.040 | like when they're like a unit like that,

00:23:26.560 | 'cause it's, look, it's just us.

00:23:28.560 | It's just what we want, it's what we like.

00:23:30.440 | And that's why I said, like, you know,

00:23:32.440 | even when it comes to sex or things like that,

00:23:34.840 | like if you can't be candid with your partner

00:23:38.400 | about whatever weird shit you're into

00:23:40.800 | or what fantasy you had in any particular,

00:23:43.360 | well, then how can you be candid with?

00:23:45.280 | I mean, because you're gonna either go without

00:23:47.760 | or go elsewhere, and neither of those

00:23:50.000 | is a particularly healthy option or helpful option.

00:23:53.440 | It's the start of that decline.

00:23:56.320 | So why, why open yourself to that decline,

00:23:59.720 | which invariably is just the path

00:24:02.440 | to the chair in front of me in my office?

00:24:04.760 | - Yeah, you have a full section in your book

00:24:07.120 | on foot fetishes.

00:24:09.000 | - I do, I do.

00:24:10.520 | - Yeah, which is funny

00:24:11.360 | because I don't know anything about foot fetishes.

00:24:13.480 | - Me neither. - Yeah, like I can't,

00:24:14.840 | I'm not king shaming anybody,

00:24:16.200 | but like there's nothing sexual about feet to me at all.

00:24:19.120 | Like I just don't get it, I don't,

00:24:21.200 | but I mean, listen, if people like things, it's good.

00:24:23.960 | But yeah, I have had clients that have odd fetishes

00:24:28.960 | or sexual proclivities or things they wanna do,

00:24:33.080 | and they don't share it with their partner at all.

00:24:35.720 | And then they find an outlet for it

00:24:37.400 | because they try to go without it and that doesn't work.

00:24:39.640 | So they try to find some other outlet for it.

00:24:41.960 | And then that's interpreted as a betrayal

00:24:43.840 | and it creates distance and people split up.

00:24:45.880 | And of course, everybody likes to have like a,

00:24:48.320 | you know, a bad guy to blame it on.

00:24:50.120 | So when you say, well, why'd you guys get divorced?

00:24:52.240 | Oh, 'cause he secretly had a foot fetish

00:24:53.680 | and he was on these message boards like meeting people.

00:24:55.480 | But well, it gives you an easy answer

00:24:57.480 | as to why the two of you split up.

00:24:58.960 | But I don't think, you know,

00:24:59.800 | most divorces have such simple answers

00:25:02.000 | as it was a foot thing.

00:25:03.520 | But I also think too, like, listen, if you got a partner,

00:25:06.760 | I mean, we all do stuff that we're not super into

00:25:09.840 | because we're in a relationship.

00:25:11.280 | And that's what part of it is.

00:25:12.560 | Like, do you really wanna go see that chick flick?

00:25:15.080 | Do you really wanna eat at this restaurant?

00:25:17.160 | Do you really wanna go to her cousin's wedding?

00:25:18.760 | No, but you know, part of being in a relationship is,

00:25:21.040 | okay, if you're into this,

00:25:22.080 | I'm gonna pretend this song's a good song, you know,

00:25:25.000 | even though it's not my favorite song.

00:25:26.920 | And I think, I just don't know, we've turned sex,

00:25:30.400 | I mean, sex has been so politicized in recent years.

00:25:33.240 | Maybe it always was.

00:25:34.560 | But I think we've made it into something

00:25:36.680 | where we can't just, I don't know, I'm not into feet,

00:25:39.480 | but if the woman I love was like, you know,

00:25:43.160 | I'm really into feet,

00:25:44.440 | like I really wanna do stuff with your feet,

00:25:46.400 | I'd be like, all right, I can pretend I'm into that.

00:25:48.720 | Like, it's not gonna kill me, you know?

00:25:51.520 | I'm not gonna be able to make it a centerpiece

00:25:53.000 | of our coupling, but you know, like,

00:25:54.840 | yeah, I can pretend I'm into feet if you want.

00:25:56.640 | - I don't personally have any fetishes

00:25:58.360 | that are outside of the normal discourse.

00:26:02.920 | - As a divorce lawyer, I get to experience

00:26:04.880 | the whole spectrum.

00:26:06.480 | - But if I was into like furries, for example,

00:26:09.560 | I don't know how I would initiate the conversation

00:26:12.760 | with my partner about that.

00:26:15.160 | - But frame the question the other direction.

00:26:17.840 | If you were into furries,

00:26:19.920 | how do you prevent your partner

00:26:24.400 | from knowing anything about that?

00:26:26.920 | That feels like a real,

00:26:28.840 | you'd have to make a conscious choice

00:26:31.240 | to not let your partner know that.

00:26:32.800 | - Sure, sure.

00:26:34.200 | So I don't think either of those

00:26:37.080 | is a particularly palatable or easy proposition.

00:26:40.240 | - But a lot of people live life

00:26:42.120 | hiding some part of themselves.

00:26:44.120 | - Yeah, quite unsuccessfully.

00:26:46.440 | Like, the second order effects of that

00:26:48.960 | are very rarely positive.

00:26:50.360 | - Sure.

00:26:51.200 | - I don't think I've ever met someone who went,

00:26:53.160 | yeah, I really hid this huge part of myself

00:26:55.400 | for an extended period of time,

00:26:56.240 | and that's the best thing that happened.

00:26:58.080 | I'm really glad I stayed in the closet as long as I did.

00:27:01.320 | You know, it really worked out.

00:27:03.080 | Like, it rarely does.

00:27:04.240 | It's a question of how long can you hold it off?

00:27:07.040 | - Yeah.

00:27:08.200 | - Like, I know gay men who stayed in the closet

00:27:11.120 | for 40 years, 50 years of their lives,

00:27:13.760 | and then they had a successful second chapter as a gay man.

00:27:18.240 | I've had clients like that.

00:27:20.640 | Do they regret that they were in the closet?

00:27:23.720 | No, because they were married, they had kids,

00:27:25.760 | like, they had experiences they're glad they had.

00:27:28.680 | But would their advice to a young person

00:27:31.720 | in their 20s and 30s who's gay be, stay in the closet,

00:27:34.440 | 'cause then you can have a wife and some kids,

00:27:35.960 | and then you can come out when you're 50 or 60

00:27:38.000 | and have a second chapter?

00:27:38.880 | No.

00:27:39.720 | They would say, you know, be who you are,

00:27:41.760 | don't be afraid, you know?

00:27:43.400 | - As you were talking, I'm trying to think of,

00:27:44.960 | 'cause I'm publicly and privately,

00:27:47.320 | I'm the exact same person,

00:27:48.240 | or try to be the exact same person.

00:27:49.960 | So I usually try to make sure there's nothing to hide,

00:27:52.560 | but I was trying to come up with a counter example for you

00:27:55.320 | for if there's good things to hide.

00:27:59.160 | Well, I mean, there could be, like, past relationships,

00:28:01.600 | like, if I slept with thousands of women

00:28:05.880 | or something like this,

00:28:07.320 | maybe you wanna put that to the side when you're having a--

00:28:10.640 | - Well, you don't wanna be in,

00:28:11.920 | there's a difference between being honest about something

00:28:15.360 | and being indelicate about it.

00:28:18.320 | - Right.

00:28:19.160 | - You know, like, I think we all do this with lovers.

00:28:22.520 | Like, any of us who've been in more than one relationship,

00:28:25.680 | you would not, you know, at the end of sex,

00:28:29.280 | be like, "That was the third best sex I've ever had."

00:28:32.000 | You know, like, that's, it's just indelicate, it's rude.

00:28:35.320 | You know, so I don't think it's a matter

00:28:38.960 | of, like, total candor at all times.

00:28:43.440 | But I think if you were, we're using the furry example,

00:28:46.760 | and I'm not picking on furries.

00:28:48.320 | I just think if that is a proclivity

00:28:52.920 | that is anything other than a passing thought,

00:28:55.320 | like, it's something that you just keep coming back to,

00:28:58.880 | then you're making a conscious decision

00:29:01.160 | to withhold it from your partner.

00:29:03.560 | And what is that out of?

00:29:04.920 | I mean, I would say it's probably out of fear.

00:29:07.120 | I'm not a psychologist, but probably out of fear.

00:29:09.800 | Fear that they would reject you, that they,

00:29:11.960 | okay, well, now, see, I genuinely believe that this,

00:29:16.680 | you know, I'm very conflicted in my religious faith,

00:29:25.440 | but I don't know that I believe in the devil.

00:29:29.520 | But if there was a devil, I think his principal function

00:29:33.320 | would be to convince us that we are so bestial

00:29:35.920 | that God couldn't love us.

00:29:38.320 | It would be to convince us that we're awful,

00:29:41.120 | and that we should just lean into the awfulness.

00:29:43.640 | And I know the greatest low points of my life came

00:29:48.640 | whenever I just went, you know what, I'm just awful,

00:29:53.040 | I might as well just behave awfully.

00:29:55.440 | And I really believe that when you don't,

00:30:00.440 | when you push down parts of yourself, like your sexuality,

00:30:09.240 | like your insecurities, your true feelings

00:30:14.960 | from your romantic partner,

00:30:16.440 | the person who's supposed to be your, you know,

00:30:18.800 | your number one, you are making sure

00:30:22.800 | you will never feel their love.

00:30:24.800 | Because they don't love you,

00:30:28.560 | they love the you you've presented to them,

00:30:30.800 | which you know in your heart

00:30:32.600 | is not the authentic, honest, real you.

00:30:36.560 | And so if you know you're super into furries,

00:30:39.960 | and you don't tell your partner about that,

00:30:42.520 | and your partner says, I love you so much,

00:30:44.320 | and you know what I love?

00:30:45.160 | One of the things I love about us

00:30:46.000 | is we have such great sexual chemistry,

00:30:47.800 | you will never feel that love, because you know,

00:30:50.800 | yeah, that's not true, though, she doesn't know,

00:30:52.720 | she doesn't know that actually I'm not really satisfied,

00:30:55.800 | and there is this thing that I want

00:30:57.160 | that I know I can't even tell her 'cause I'm so ashamed.

00:31:00.000 | Like that doesn't feel like a good option to me.

00:31:02.520 | - Yeah, yeah, so that kind of vulnerability

00:31:07.560 | is essential to intimacy.

00:31:10.400 | - You know, I'm prone to jujitsu metaphors,

00:31:12.120 | and this is one of the first conversations

00:31:13.800 | where I can actually use them,

00:31:15.160 | because the person I'm talking to is a jujitsu person, but--

00:31:18.200 | - And people should know

00:31:19.040 | that you are a quote-unquote jujitsu person.

00:31:22.040 | You have been afflicted with the--

00:31:24.560 | - I am a brown belt under Marcella Garcia,

00:31:26.760 | and I am like a seven-year brown belt now, so--

00:31:30.000 | - Which is the right way to be a brown belt.

00:31:32.200 | - Well, and also I am, you know, late middle-aged,

00:31:36.000 | middleweight, and moderately talented,

00:31:38.040 | so I'm, and training at that academy

00:31:40.960 | with so many incredibly talented people,

00:31:42.920 | and training in New York City

00:31:43.900 | where there's so many unbelievably talented people,

00:31:45.800 | you're constantly humble and feeling like

00:31:47.920 | you should just be wearing a blue belt all the time.

00:31:50.880 | But a lot of, I think, as you know,

00:31:53.640 | and as most people who practice jujitsu know,

00:31:56.260 | you start to sort of see jujitsu in everything.

00:31:58.800 | I genuinely believe that in love,

00:32:03.800 | you have to give something to get something.

00:32:06.880 | You have to, everything you do creates a vulnerability.

00:32:10.400 | You know, every move you make in jujitsu

00:32:14.240 | creates opportunity and creates vulnerability.

00:32:16.800 | And so you have to be willing to create vulnerabilities

00:32:19.440 | in order to get any leverage,

00:32:21.560 | in order to get any progress,

00:32:23.480 | in any way to move the position.

00:32:25.320 | You know, you don't want a marriage

00:32:26.440 | that's just two people both in 50/50.

00:32:29.220 | You know, like you're just sitting in that car

00:32:30.880 | doing nothing, you know?

00:32:32.080 | You want it to actually move along.

00:32:36.120 | - Yeah, I mean, that's the way I see love and relationships,

00:32:38.240 | is you should take that leap of vulnerability,

00:32:41.160 | give the other person the option to destroy you.

00:32:44.080 | - Well, you have to expose.

00:32:45.560 | And that's the part that I think is hard for everyone,

00:32:50.560 | you know, is to expose yourself in that way.

00:32:53.280 | But that's what I mean even when I said about

00:32:55.400 | getting a dog or having a child.

00:32:57.200 | Like, loving anything is tremendously courageous

00:33:02.200 | because it's terrifying.

00:33:04.040 | And it's only brave if you're scared.

00:33:07.680 | If you're not scared, you know, it's not brave,

00:33:11.000 | it's just stupidity.

00:33:12.000 | It's just, you know, it's bravery

00:33:14.920 | when you're afraid and you do the thing anyway.

00:33:17.320 | And so love is like, yeah, it's scary.

00:33:19.640 | Like, I don't care who you are.

00:33:21.960 | Like, you know, being, you know, in the jiu-jitsu community,

00:33:25.000 | like I'm around, you know, as you are,

00:33:27.240 | like incredibly tough people, like physically tough people,

00:33:30.320 | mentally tough people.

00:33:32.320 | But, you know, I've seen some of those people taken down

00:33:36.880 | by 120 pound woman, you know?

00:33:39.760 | Not from a grappling perspective,

00:33:42.640 | but they are taken apart by a woman in their life.

00:33:46.440 | And vice versa, I've seen men, you know,

00:33:48.680 | who like, it really is shocking how much leverage

00:33:53.000 | we give to our romantic partners

00:33:54.880 | and how little discussion we really,

00:33:58.000 | genuine discussion we really have about it,

00:34:00.920 | how much we really are ever trained to think about it.

00:34:04.480 | You know, there's nothing in school

00:34:06.360 | that teaches us about it.

00:34:08.240 | So much of literature and art is an idealized version of it.

00:34:13.240 | So little of it is real.

00:34:16.200 | - And no matter how it evolves,

00:34:18.200 | when it ends in tragedy or drama,

00:34:23.120 | I feel like what people don't do enough

00:34:25.880 | is appreciate the good times.

00:34:27.840 | Like appreciate how beautiful it is

00:34:31.040 | to having taken the risk

00:34:33.040 | and to having experienced that kind of love.

00:34:36.920 | I think when you look at people

00:34:39.080 | that are divorcing each other,

00:34:40.640 | there's a Edgar Allan Poe quote,

00:34:44.840 | "The years of love have been forgot

00:34:46.520 | "in the hatred of a minute."

00:34:48.000 | I always kind of am saddened, like deeply saddened,

00:34:53.000 | how people seem to forget

00:34:54.440 | how many beautiful moments have been shared

00:34:56.440 | when some reason, some drama,

00:34:59.760 | some breakup leads them to part ways.

00:35:02.360 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:35:03.360 | It's interesting that you came to that

00:35:05.040 | not being a divorce lawyer,

00:35:06.520 | because I've felt that way for a long time.

00:35:09.440 | And I really try to say to my clients,

00:35:12.320 | like in the courtroom at the negotiating table,

00:35:14.280 | I have a role to play

00:35:15.960 | where I have to be sort of like a pit bull

00:35:17.680 | or some kind of like a courtroom sociopath.

00:35:20.480 | But behind closed doors,

00:35:22.000 | like I'm very candid with people.

00:35:23.560 | I'm trying to be much more emotionally attuned with them.

00:35:26.080 | - So you're an empath in the sheets

00:35:29.320 | and sociopath in the streets?

00:35:30.920 | - Exactly correct.

00:35:31.760 | That's well said.

00:35:32.600 | I even, boy, I get a new tattoo idea.

00:35:34.560 | That's good, I like that.

00:35:36.440 | I, but I do believe when I'm behind closed doors with people,

00:35:40.800 | I say to them, how you end things

00:35:43.320 | is gonna be how you're gonna remember the whole thing.

00:35:45.840 | And that's unfortunate,

00:35:47.520 | because you watch like a two hour movie,

00:35:50.880 | and if the last 15 minutes of it sucked,

00:35:52.920 | you go, well, that movie sucked.

00:35:54.280 | Like, well, the first hour in 45 was great, you know?

00:35:57.400 | But you walk out with this bad taste in your mouth.

00:36:00.360 | I'm genuinely in awe

00:36:04.880 | of how easily people forget that they loved each other.

00:36:09.280 | And I'm amazed, because by the time I meet them,

00:36:13.440 | and by the time they hire me to be a weapon

00:36:16.600 | against the person they were in love with,

00:36:19.960 | there's nothing but animosity there.

00:36:22.840 | And so I have to try to imagine

00:36:26.320 | what these two people looked like

00:36:27.640 | when they were in love with each other,

00:36:29.240 | and how that even existed.

00:36:31.040 | But I have to tell you, like,

00:36:33.840 | you know, I don't function that way.

00:36:35.640 | Like, every woman I ever had a relationship with,

00:36:39.640 | like, when I think of them,

00:36:41.040 | I don't think of the ending, necessarily.

00:36:43.720 | I think of, I try to think about the greatest hits.

00:36:46.920 | I try to think about the moments that were wonderful,

00:36:49.880 | where I loved them and they loved me,

00:36:51.720 | and like, there was joy and there was connection.

00:36:54.520 | And I don't know why you'd choose not to.

00:36:57.880 | You know, there's that old axiom,

00:36:59.600 | I don't know who said it,

00:37:00.480 | that if you don't learn to find joy in the snow,

00:37:04.200 | you'll have less joy in your life

00:37:06.880 | in precisely the same amount of snow.

00:37:08.960 | And I genuinely believe, like,

00:37:13.800 | okay, the relationship ends.

00:37:15.560 | This is where it ends.

00:37:16.480 | We're done now.

00:37:17.320 | I am making a choice as to how I will remember you.

00:37:22.640 | And we do it in relationships.

00:37:25.080 | Like, I always tell people, you know,

00:37:26.680 | if you ever wanna see a couple light up,

00:37:28.400 | if they're ever like the couple at the table

00:37:30.080 | that's, you know, it seems like they got in a fight

00:37:31.480 | or something, ask them how they met.

00:37:33.600 | And most people, when they talk about how they met,

00:37:35.320 | like, their face softens.

00:37:38.080 | They both, and the other person looking at them,

00:37:39.880 | telling the story, gets that look

00:37:41.240 | you were talking about before.

00:37:43.120 | And 'cause they remember that thing

00:37:44.720 | and how they felt at that moment.

00:37:46.280 | And when this person was a choice, not a default,

00:37:50.720 | not their automatic plus one,

00:37:52.600 | but the person they asked to the wedding,

00:37:54.240 | not the, of course you're bringing her, it's your wife.

00:37:55.960 | You bring your fucking wife places.

00:37:57.480 | Like it was still, hey, there's like, you know,

00:38:02.000 | three and a half billion women and I'm picking you.

00:38:05.240 | You know, like that feeling.

00:38:08.040 | And I don't know why when a relationship ends,

00:38:12.600 | you can't do that.

00:38:14.040 | A lesson I learned when my mother passed away of a very,

00:38:17.760 | she had a two year terrible battle with cancer

00:38:20.280 | and was on hospice and was very, very sick.

00:38:23.520 | And it was a very slow and awful end.

00:38:27.080 | And I remember one of my worst fears

00:38:29.360 | was that this is how I would remember my mother

00:38:32.160 | for the rest of my life.

00:38:33.920 | That I would never be able to think of her,

00:38:36.400 | that I didn't think of what she had become

00:38:39.200 | in the last months where she was withered away to nothing

00:38:42.240 | in this bed, you know.

00:38:43.760 | And I learned over time that memory is very kind,

00:38:48.040 | that like that faded somehow.

00:38:50.840 | And that now, like when I remember her,

00:38:53.120 | I remember her healthy and vibrant.

00:38:55.040 | I remember her laughter.

00:38:56.160 | I remember positive things.

00:38:57.600 | Some of that is I like to look at photos of that.

00:39:00.280 | But some of it is just how I think memory works.

00:39:03.400 | And I don't know why we don't apply that to relationships.

00:39:08.400 | And I think part of it is because we have this binary view

00:39:12.200 | of relationships, that it's either success,

00:39:14.680 | which means you live happily ever after

00:39:16.080 | for the rest of your lives and die together,

00:39:19.000 | or like in short succession, or it was wrong, it was awful.

00:39:23.840 | And I don't understand why that would have to be

00:39:27.440 | how we do it.

00:39:28.280 | I think we could look at relationships like what they are,

00:39:31.040 | which is chapters in a book.

00:39:34.800 | And that book is our life.

00:39:36.760 | And those chapters all have significance.

00:39:39.920 | And none of them would, the later chapters,

00:39:41.840 | none of them would happen without the prior ones.

00:39:44.080 | So there's this beauty in me of that.

00:39:46.400 | And I don't know if that is a choice

00:39:48.560 | or if that is how it is.

00:39:53.600 | And the rest is just narrative

00:39:55.400 | that we've put on top of it culturally for some reason.

00:39:59.040 | - Well, I think to push back a little bit,

00:40:01.040 | I think memory can also, I think it is a deliberate choice

00:40:05.480 | 'cause I think memory can basically,

00:40:08.840 | that's how trauma works.

00:40:09.880 | It can surface the negative stuff.

00:40:12.640 | And the negative stuff completely drowns out

00:40:15.520 | all the positives.

00:40:16.360 | So I think it's a deliberate choice

00:40:20.600 | to make your memory probably work that way.

00:40:23.080 | You know, in relationships, betrayal can do that, right?

00:40:26.760 | Sort of cheating, infidelity,

00:40:29.800 | like one event can almost erase the entirety

00:40:34.800 | of your understanding of the past

00:40:38.480 | and all the memories are sort of shrouded

00:40:40.720 | in this darkness of, okay,

00:40:42.920 | what I believed was true is totally untrue.

00:40:45.480 | And sort of to overcome that

00:40:46.960 | and still appreciate the beautiful moments.

00:40:49.120 | - I'm continually astounded

00:40:53.880 | by how long the hurt and anger of betrayal can reverberate.

00:40:58.880 | I have clients who were four years, five years past

00:41:08.440 | when the divorce ended, the cheating was discovered

00:41:11.240 | and they're as angry as they were the day they found out.

00:41:15.000 | And I don't know what that's about.

00:41:18.960 | Because I also have clients that they like look back on it

00:41:24.800 | and they go, you know, we screwed up.

00:41:27.880 | Like we were, you know, we didn't do the best

00:41:30.280 | but we did the best we could do at the time.

00:41:32.240 | And you know, we like,

00:41:34.560 | there should be stars for wars like ours, you know?

00:41:37.960 | There should be champagne for the survivors.

00:41:40.360 | Like we made it through, you know?

00:41:42.000 | Like we survived it and we were fools

00:41:44.560 | and we were fools for love

00:41:45.800 | and there are worse things in the world to be fools for.

00:41:48.400 | But I also do think that most relationships

00:41:51.720 | where there was infidelity,

00:41:54.120 | and it's not a popular thing to say

00:41:57.200 | and I'll get pilloried for it, but.

00:41:59.560 | - Great.

00:42:00.400 | - You know, I just don't know

00:42:04.680 | and I don't wanna blame the victim of infidelity,

00:42:08.640 | but was the relationship really where it needed to be?

00:42:12.200 | Like were you truly the most just dutiful spouse

00:42:16.800 | who was seeing this person's needs be met?

00:42:19.680 | Again, we've established in the granola story

00:42:22.240 | that people can sometimes with good intentions

00:42:24.960 | not be meeting their partner's needs

00:42:26.680 | or perceiving their partner's needs

00:42:28.520 | or their partner isn't communicating them the right way

00:42:30.480 | or all of the above.

00:42:32.480 | But I've rarely seen very happy, content couples

00:42:37.480 | that cheat on each other.

00:42:40.480 | And so I understand there's a shame

00:42:42.640 | in saying this person cheated on me

00:42:44.680 | or I cheated on this person.

00:42:46.360 | 'Cause I represent the cheater and I represent the cheated.

00:42:51.240 | I represent the victim of domestic violence

00:42:53.560 | and I represent perpetrator of domestic violence.

00:42:55.360 | I represent the person with the substance use disorder,

00:42:57.360 | the person married to the person.

00:42:58.600 | So I don't get to choose the white or the black hat.

00:43:01.200 | Like I have my client and that's my client.

00:43:04.360 | And it forces me to put myself into their story

00:43:08.800 | from their point of view.

00:43:10.440 | And I think that kind of radical empathy

00:43:14.220 | that you need to engage in on a daily basis

00:43:18.000 | to represent people in those kinds of proceedings,

00:43:21.520 | it just, I don't know, it just doesn't seem

00:43:25.220 | like there's good guys and bad guys.

00:43:27.480 | It just seems like it's complicated

00:43:30.120 | and people's intentions

00:43:32.560 | and where they actually end up are different.

00:43:34.800 | - Yeah, I think there's some sense in still remembering

00:43:38.680 | the betrayal as it being a symptom

00:43:42.840 | of taking life a little too seriously.

00:43:44.960 | Too seriously where you don't,

00:43:46.460 | life shouldn't be taken that seriously.

00:43:49.280 | You should be able to laugh at it all.

00:43:50.760 | Like the story you say,

00:43:52.080 | be able to appreciate the battle

00:43:56.280 | that should give stars for those kind of wars

00:43:58.440 | that we fought and just kind of be able to laugh at it all.

00:44:01.440 | - Especially with love.

00:44:02.480 | Like love's just so absurd.

00:44:04.600 | Like it's so-- - It's just crazy.

00:44:05.760 | - It's so crazy.

00:44:06.840 | I mean, like I don't, you know, I think it's funny.

00:44:09.760 | I think, I mean, this is real candor,

00:44:13.120 | but you know, as a man, like there's nothing funnier

00:44:15.840 | than when you finish masturbating, you know?

00:44:18.840 | There's no more humbling moment.

00:44:20.640 | And I like to think about the fact

00:44:21.840 | that like the richest, famous,

00:44:23.520 | most powerful person in the world, they jerk off.

00:44:26.800 | You know, the most powerful man in the world jerks off.

00:44:28.880 | I'm sure, you know, all of them do.

00:44:30.480 | I mean, you probably know them, so you could ask, but.

00:44:32.640 | And that moment where you just, you come and you go,

00:44:36.520 | what am I doing?

00:44:37.360 | Like what the, now I gotta wipe that, like, oh, good Lord.

00:44:40.480 | And there's this feeling of, but a second ago,

00:44:42.800 | this seemed like a great idea.

00:44:44.160 | And it was, by the way, it was a great idea.

00:44:47.040 | But there's this moment, this satori, you know,

00:44:51.040 | where you just go, oh, like, what, this is so silly.

00:44:54.760 | Well, like, that's love, that's sex.

00:44:56.720 | Like, it's crazy.

00:44:58.040 | When you read other people's infidelity,

00:45:02.400 | the text messages, the emails,

00:45:04.440 | 'cause I have to do that all the time.

00:45:06.080 | And I'll tell you how we make the sausage.

00:45:08.960 | In a divorce lawyer's office,

00:45:10.520 | the some of the most entertaining moments

00:45:12.040 | is dramatic readings aloud of people's infidelity exchanges

00:45:15.440 | with their lovers.

00:45:16.440 | The sexts.

00:45:17.280 | Yeah, the sexts and the like, you know,

00:45:20.800 | like, it's just so ridiculous.

00:45:22.600 | 'Cause people have to go through like all kinds of gymnastics

00:45:25.240 | to be able to meet and have sex in weird places.

00:45:27.880 | And, you know, and you're reading this

00:45:31.200 | and you're reading these texts and you kind of go like,

00:45:33.720 | oh my God, these people.

00:45:34.960 | And by the way, like, I've represented

00:45:36.520 | some very powerful people.

00:45:38.680 | And you read their texts with their lover

00:45:42.600 | or even their spouse, like even their spouse, you know,

00:45:46.240 | and they're just pathetic.

00:45:47.560 | I mean, they're just like so not powerful.

00:45:50.040 | They're so like, hey, babe, you know.

00:45:52.400 | I have a, I have a, I'll remain totally nameless.

00:45:55.600 | I have a very powerful, wealthy, famous former client

00:46:00.600 | where there's a whole series of texts about,

00:46:02.840 | is my dick weird?

00:46:04.960 | Which by the way, I think the answer is,

00:46:07.240 | is if you have to ask if you have a weird dick,

00:46:08.800 | the answer is probably yes.

00:46:09.920 | 'Cause I've owned one and I've never thought,

00:46:11.840 | is this weird?

00:46:12.680 | But I, the fact that you're having this discussion,

00:46:18.280 | like it's absurd, it's hilarious.

00:46:19.800 | Like love is hilarious, it's bizarre.

00:46:21.840 | It's such a weird vulnerability.

00:46:23.480 | It's such a basic visceral human need.

00:46:27.240 | You know, it really is something that we just,

00:46:31.160 | you know, it's mysterious.

00:46:33.640 | But it doesn't have to be that complicated.

00:46:36.160 | I don't think that even betrayal, like I said,

00:46:38.840 | it doesn't have to be that complicated.

00:46:41.040 | I think we can frame it differently.

00:46:43.160 | - Yeah, you can laugh at the whole thing.

00:46:44.280 | I mean, I think what we don't often do with ourselves

00:46:48.320 | is look back at texts or look back at emails

00:46:52.240 | or look back at Google search.

00:46:53.800 | I did that recently.

00:46:55.040 | Just looking at what I searched for like 10 years ago, 15.

00:46:59.160 | It's like, forget last week.

00:47:02.040 | Just look at your Google searches last week.

00:47:05.040 | And you're like, wait a minute, what?

00:47:08.280 | Why did you just search for this 50 times?

00:47:12.520 | - Right, why did the Karate Kid 3 pop in my head?

00:47:15.480 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:47:16.320 | Why, and like you're like--

00:47:17.760 | - Where's Ralph Macchio now?

00:47:19.280 | - And who is he dating?

00:47:20.600 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:47:21.440 | - Why is, and then mother, and then you're like--

00:47:23.120 | - And then a restaurant nearby.

00:47:24.560 | Like how did I go from this to that?

00:47:26.760 | But it made sense at the time.

00:47:29.720 | - So when you ask someone,

00:47:31.840 | how did our relationship fall apart?

00:47:35.120 | It's like looking at the Google search history

00:47:38.360 | of yourself from 10 years.

00:47:40.680 | You don't even know why you were thinking

00:47:42.560 | about those things.

00:47:44.280 | And now you wanna understand why you did what you did,

00:47:47.520 | felt what you felt, she felt what she felt,

00:47:49.520 | she did what she did, and why the two of you,

00:47:51.920 | how you impacted each other and interacted with each other.

00:47:54.600 | Really?

00:47:55.560 | You think that's doable?

00:47:58.320 | - So you've, in the courtroom,

00:48:01.280 | does that come up, like text messages

00:48:03.480 | that resulted in whoever you're cheating with?

00:48:08.520 | - Yeah, I mean, you know,

00:48:09.600 | cheating doesn't come up as much

00:48:10.800 | because most states are no-fault states now.

00:48:12.720 | So why someone's getting divorced,

00:48:14.280 | whether it's infidelity or, you know, it doesn't matter.

00:48:16.840 | There's no good spouse bonus or bad spouse penalty.

00:48:19.240 | - Oh, there isn't.

00:48:20.080 | I mean, can you elaborate on that?

00:48:21.720 | - Well, you can have, we've had times

00:48:23.400 | where we have to prove infidelity

00:48:25.440 | because we wanna prove what's called

00:48:27.040 | wasteful dissipation of marital assets,

00:48:28.840 | which means that you were spending money

00:48:30.920 | that was marital money on a paramour.

00:48:34.400 | That's what the legal name for a ex, you know,

00:48:36.400 | for a boyfriend or girlfriend in the marriage.

00:48:38.600 | And usually the person calls it, you know,

00:48:41.280 | that whore or that piece of shit,

00:48:43.640 | but we call the paramour, yeah, the paramour.

00:48:46.320 | And the, you know, sometimes we have to prove

00:48:49.160 | inclination and opportunity.

00:48:50.560 | We have to prove that this person

00:48:52.800 | had the inclination to cheat

00:48:54.320 | and that they had the opportunity to cheat.

00:48:55.960 | And then we wanna show that, okay,

00:48:57.240 | so when they went away,

00:48:58.520 | that should be considered dissipation of marital assets.

00:49:00.560 | So if you go out to dinner with your brother,

00:49:02.920 | you didn't dissipate the marital estate.

00:49:04.880 | But if you bought your paramour a Tiffany bracelet,

00:49:08.240 | that would be a dissipation of marital assets

00:49:09.880 | and the person's entitled to a credit back for that

00:49:12.000 | from what was taken out of the marital estate.

00:49:13.720 | So we do sometimes have to authenticate text messages

00:49:17.320 | on the witness stand or in depositions, you know.

00:49:20.640 | And what's interesting about that

00:49:21.560 | is the way people approach it.

00:49:23.120 | People sometimes try to pretend,

00:49:25.960 | "Oh no, this is just my good friend," you know,

00:49:29.440 | which is just like you kill your credibility.

00:49:32.120 | You know, if you, "Oh no, she's just my very good friend."

00:49:34.960 | She's not, she's not.

00:49:36.280 | That makes no sense whatsoever.

00:49:38.360 | Or, "No, we were just friends at that point."

00:49:40.840 | And then several months later is when we,

00:49:43.120 | once this marriage was over,

00:49:44.560 | that's when we got together as partner.

00:49:46.520 | That's ridiculous.

00:49:48.160 | But sometimes people just own it, just own it.

00:49:51.120 | Like I did a deposition of an executive once

00:49:53.280 | and opposing counsel thought they were gonna really hit 'em.

00:49:57.200 | They were like, "And looking at this credit card receipt,

00:49:59.520 | "what was this charge for, for this hotel?"

00:50:01.400 | He's like, "Oh, that was for a hotel room

00:50:02.960 | "that I got with my girlfriend."

00:50:05.640 | "And you were married?"

00:50:06.480 | "Yes, yes."

00:50:07.320 | "Where did you stay at the hotel?"

00:50:08.720 | It was, we didn't even stay.

00:50:09.720 | We actually just did like an afternoon delight,

00:50:11.320 | rolled around in bed for the day.

00:50:12.960 | - Yeah.

00:50:15.080 | - And it was like, well now, you know,

00:50:16.480 | took all the thunder out of that.

00:50:18.000 | - What's the downside of doing that?

00:50:19.240 | That seems like a really--

00:50:20.080 | - There wasn't.

00:50:20.920 | - That actually I think helped his credibility.

00:50:22.000 | It was my client, so I thought it was the right move.

00:50:23.920 | We hadn't really discussed it in advance,

00:50:25.480 | but he was naturally intelligent enough to go,

00:50:28.840 | "Yeah, my credibility, like I'm not gonna lie under oath.

00:50:32.360 | "I'll admit what it was, but I'll do it in such an,"

00:50:35.720 | you know, we did it like at the end,

00:50:36.920 | like Eminem at the end of "Eight Mile."

00:50:38.960 | Like it was very like,

00:50:40.320 | "Yeah, I cheated on her with this person.

00:50:42.520 | "Now tell these people something

00:50:43.560 | "they don't know about me."

00:50:44.800 | You know?

00:50:45.640 | And that's kind of how I try to,

00:50:49.080 | as a trial lawyer, we actually in my firm

00:50:52.160 | refer to it as the "Eight Mile" strategy,

00:50:53.800 | which is like, we will,

00:50:55.720 | if I know there was a text message sent,

00:50:59.160 | you know, "You piece of shit, I hope you die."

00:51:02.240 | My client sent that text message to his co-parent.

00:51:05.000 | On my examination of my client,

00:51:10.480 | I will say, "I'd like to have this marked

00:51:11.840 | "for identification, shown to the witness."

00:51:13.880 | What is that?

00:51:14.720 | It's a text message.

00:51:16.000 | Who's it to?

00:51:18.680 | A plaintiff.

00:51:20.880 | You sent it?

00:51:21.800 | Yeah.

00:51:22.640 | Read it out loud for the court.

00:51:23.600 | Mm-hmm.

00:51:24.440 | Do I have to?

00:51:27.040 | I think you should.

00:51:28.040 | You're a piece of S.

00:51:31.640 | Does it say S?

00:51:32.680 | No.

00:51:34.240 | What does it say?

00:51:35.080 | Well, it's a profanity.

00:51:35.960 | So you say it's a,

00:51:36.960 | "You piece of shit, I hope that she die."

00:51:40.640 | You sent that to her?

00:51:41.720 | Yes.

00:51:42.560 | Why?

00:51:43.400 | I was really mad.

00:51:45.680 | Do you think that was good?

00:51:47.720 | No.

00:51:48.560 | Do you think it was helpful

00:51:49.400 | for your co-parenting relationship with her?

00:51:51.480 | No.

00:51:52.320 | Why did you send it then?

00:51:54.080 | You know, she sent me like 50 texts exactly like that,

00:51:57.240 | and I never responded, and I pushed it down every time,

00:52:00.240 | and then finally, I just blew up at her.

00:52:03.200 | If you had it to do over again,

00:52:04.120 | would you do it differently?

00:52:05.520 | You know, I wish I could say I would,

00:52:07.240 | but the truth is, I'm human, and I was at my limits,

00:52:10.440 | and I'm watching opposing counsel

00:52:13.360 | cross out entire sheets of their cross-examination,

00:52:16.400 | 'cause it's gone now.

00:52:17.560 | They thought that they had their like Perry Mason moment.

00:52:20.360 | They had their like, "Did you order the code red?" moment,

00:52:23.760 | and it's gone now.

00:52:25.000 | Because if you just own and accept your fault

00:52:28.520 | or your issues in the relationship,

00:52:30.840 | you can take a lot of the power out of that.

00:52:34.440 | And I wish we wouldn't take texts seriously.

00:52:37.480 | I don't think we should have

00:52:38.320 | substantive discussions via text.

00:52:40.240 | I think text was designed for, "Are you here?

00:52:43.000 | "Yes, 15 minutes away."

00:52:45.720 | Or, "I got here safely, love you."

00:52:48.200 | Like that substantive discussions.

00:52:50.520 | People love having arguments via text.

00:52:52.960 | And I have to say,

00:52:53.800 | when you read other people's text messages,

00:52:55.640 | as I am often forced to do, it is amazing,

00:52:59.720 | because just like that Google history

00:53:02.480 | you were talking about,

00:53:03.680 | I don't know how the hell you got

00:53:06.640 | from one thing to another.

00:53:08.040 | Like I was just reading, actually on the way here,

00:53:11.520 | in the car, I was reading through a text exchange

00:53:14.600 | between two co-parents in the middle of a custody thing

00:53:17.280 | that I'm involved in.

00:53:19.400 | And it's like, "You piece of shit.

00:53:23.160 | "You never cared about anything,

00:53:24.560 | "and I'm gonna take,

00:53:25.400 | "you have no right to take the kids from me."

00:53:26.920 | Da, da, da, da.

00:53:27.760 | And then the next day, nothing in between.

00:53:30.320 | The next day,

00:53:31.480 | Maddie got a good grade on her science thing.

00:53:35.920 | "Oh, that's great.

00:53:36.760 | "She's doing so well, it makes me so happy.

00:53:38.640 | "Yeah, her teacher said she's doing really well.

00:53:40.780 | "Yeah, that's really great to see.

00:53:42.240 | "I'll be there about 15 minutes late.

00:53:43.840 | "No problem, see you then."

00:53:45.240 | Wait, like it was a day ago.

00:53:48.960 | I wanna know, was there a phone conversation in between

00:53:53.360 | where one of you went, "Hey man, listen,

00:53:54.520 | "I'm really sorry about that.

00:53:55.440 | "Oh no, look, we were both pissed, whatever."

00:53:57.520 | Or is it just like you did that,

00:53:59.120 | and then we're supposed to pretend that didn't happen,

00:54:00.680 | and now we're just gonna talk about

00:54:01.680 | what Maddie got on her test?

00:54:03.100 | - Yeah, well, sometimes a good nap

00:54:04.560 | or a good night's sleep

00:54:05.520 | can solve a lot of emotional issues.

00:54:07.120 | - I totally get it, but is there some,

00:54:09.960 | if you're looking just at the texts,

00:54:12.720 | like it begs the question,

00:54:14.680 | wouldn't you take the nap and then go,

00:54:17.200 | "Hey, listen, I just woke up from the nap.

00:54:18.720 | "It turns out I was really tired."

00:54:19.960 | Like, does that not happen by text?

00:54:21.880 | - Oh no, that's, 'cause sometimes it's hard

00:54:24.700 | to probably apologize for being an asshole, right?

00:54:27.240 | So I think we use just text.

00:54:28.960 | We humans use all kinds of forms of communication

00:54:32.600 | to kind of vent.

00:54:33.880 | I think it's the wrong thing to do,

00:54:35.720 | but people do do that.

00:54:38.720 | - Text has a permanence, though.

00:54:40.000 | It's writing.

00:54:41.200 | I mean, it's writing.

00:54:42.040 | - You think like a lawyer.

00:54:43.440 | I like it. - You think like a lawyer,

00:54:44.960 | but lawyers think like detail, you know?

00:54:48.480 | And why would you write that down?

00:54:52.000 | Like, you know, writing it down?

00:54:53.840 | Like, would you write it down

00:54:55.040 | and would you put it on a billboard in Times Square?

00:54:57.620 | 'Cause like, everything you say on Facebook or Instagram

00:55:00.800 | can and will be used against you in a court of law.

00:55:03.640 | Like, every photo you post,

00:55:06.280 | I mean, that's going on with, what's his name?

00:55:09.480 | Jake Paul or whatever Paul and Dylan Danis right now.

00:55:12.520 | That guy's girlfriend,

00:55:14.080 | every picture that's ever been put on the internet

00:55:16.040 | of her, by her, is being weaponized right now.

00:55:19.640 | - To reference an earlier part of our discussion,

00:55:21.560 | that's love, you take a big risk,

00:55:23.560 | big risk putting it out there.

00:55:25.300 | Putting it out there on text,

00:55:28.400 | putting it out there on social media.

00:55:30.480 | - But is the reward of doing it via text worthwhile?

00:55:35.480 | Listen, the reward of love, I think,

00:55:37.920 | is worth the risks of love.

00:55:40.600 | But the benefit of communicating by text,

00:55:44.760 | does it merit that risk of that being in writing

00:55:49.760 | that the person can reflect on and review

00:55:53.120 | and scroll back and get heated up again about?

00:55:56.240 | - I don't know, we just take risks

00:55:57.640 | and we're vulnerable with each other.

00:55:59.400 | - There may be something about text

00:56:03.620 | that for whatever reasons inspires a kind of candor.

00:56:07.700 | Because I think it is a new way to communicate, right?

00:56:13.220 | In the scheme of things.

00:56:14.580 | And so sometimes, we don't know the thing

00:56:17.700 | until it's really come into existence.

00:56:19.820 | So I don't know, I think it started as something

00:56:23.620 | that we just communicated

00:56:24.860 | in a very extemporaneous unplanned way.

00:56:27.940 | Like texts were meant to be, I'm here, I'm outside,

00:56:30.900 | whatever it might be.

00:56:33.380 | And so what happens when you start to talk

00:56:37.340 | about more emotional, deeper, bigger things

00:56:40.140 | or visceral things or more emphatic, passionate things

00:56:44.140 | using a technology that was originally

00:56:46.740 | just being used for the other purpose?

00:56:48.380 | I don't know the answer to that.

00:56:49.580 | What I do know is, yeah, as a lawyer,

00:56:51.860 | A, from an evidentiary perspective,

00:56:56.180 | and B, I just know what it looks like on the outside.

00:57:00.740 | Like I know when I read it, what it looks like.

00:57:05.740 | And that's not always accurate.

00:57:08.100 | Like to just see the, it's like when you watch a video

00:57:11.140 | of someone at just their worst moment, you know?

00:57:14.020 | And the person tries to say, but wait, that's not me.

00:57:16.780 | Like that was just me in that moment.

00:57:18.500 | That was me at this incredible low point.

00:57:20.620 | And I think as a lawyer, my job is to weaponize that

00:57:25.620 | and to try to say, okay, this low point

00:57:28.140 | is indicative of who they actually are.

00:57:30.300 | - Yeah.

00:57:31.140 | - And when I'm defending someone, I'm supposed to say,

00:57:33.020 | you know, well, this is their low point

00:57:34.380 | and we've all been to a low point

00:57:35.620 | and this is just a moment in this person

00:57:37.260 | and to judge them by that moment,

00:57:38.860 | would you wanna be judged by your worst moment?

00:57:40.900 | So I have to be able to look at that both directions.

00:57:44.660 | - Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone looks great on text.

00:57:47.020 | - I mean, there's so much of our communication

00:57:48.860 | that is missing, you know, your expression.

00:57:52.380 | Like my sense of humor does not do well via text.

00:57:55.260 | Like I, 'cause I have like sometimes

00:57:58.020 | a sarcastic sense of humor or I have a dry sense of humor

00:58:01.940 | and it does not always translate well to text.

00:58:04.700 | The nuance of things is lost sometimes, you know.

00:58:08.260 | - Yeah, but that's what makes the risk of it hilarious.

00:58:12.340 | I mean, the emojis, the memes, all that,

00:58:14.420 | taking a risk, the dry, there's a risk with a text

00:58:18.140 | if you do some like dark, dry statement, right?

00:58:23.140 | That's a joke and then the pause

00:58:26.260 | and then there's no response for a couple hours.

00:58:27.980 | I mean, that's beautifying, you know.

00:58:30.140 | - It's like a, it's the, you know,

00:58:32.100 | it's the gap between the two trapezes, you know.

00:58:34.940 | Like once you've hit send and you're like,

00:58:37.940 | well, let's see where this goes.

00:58:39.780 | Like, this is coming back now, you know.

00:58:42.460 | And you're waiting and waiting.

00:58:43.900 | It's like that moment of just hang is, yeah, that's a rush.

00:58:47.380 | I mean, that's a rush, that's a beautiful thing.

00:58:49.220 | - Well, I have my friend, Michael Malice living close by

00:58:52.260 | and if the courtroom were ever to see the text between us,

00:58:56.100 | we would be both in jail for many, many years.

00:59:01.100 | - Subpoena, yeah, when this finally comes out,

00:59:03.660 | when I have my Johnny Depp, Amber Heard moment.

00:59:06.500 | - The subpoena's ready.

00:59:07.460 | - We'll get Michael Malice.

00:59:08.820 | - Well, but that was one of, you know,

00:59:09.860 | the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing was a great example of,

00:59:13.340 | in a gunfight between those two,

00:59:14.740 | everyone was cheering for the bullets.

00:59:16.260 | I mean, no one was,

00:59:17.820 | I don't think anybody looked like a hero.

00:59:20.220 | They both looked like what they are, which is humans,

00:59:23.020 | really flawed humans who had, you know,

00:59:26.820 | it really is like that People magazine thing,

00:59:28.980 | stars, they're just like us, you know?

00:59:30.780 | Like we watched that and went like,

00:59:32.580 | oh yeah, they're just like us.

00:59:33.740 | Like they cannot keep it together.

00:59:35.820 | They cannot have, like they just have

00:59:37.900 | these ridiculous toxic moments

00:59:39.820 | where both of them look awful in that trial.

00:59:42.700 | - What do you take away from that trial,

00:59:44.460 | just given all the work you've done?

00:59:47.260 | I mean, for me, I don't know if you can speak to that.

00:59:48.940 | It's probably the first time I've seen

00:59:51.980 | that kind of a complicated relationship,

00:59:56.980 | even just to say a relationship laid out in this raw form,

01:00:02.900 | like the fights of a relationship.

01:00:04.660 | - My feeling about that trial is there is no amount of money

01:00:10.540 | that would be worth laying that kind of stuff bare publicly.

01:00:14.340 | - For you, if you were Johnny Depp.

01:00:15.180 | - For me, yeah.

01:00:16.020 | There's no amount of money.

01:00:17.900 | - Because they both look awful.

01:00:19.540 | - They both look awful.

01:00:20.420 | And I don't think I'm qualified to say

01:00:23.140 | if one or both of them are awful,

01:00:25.660 | but they both had moments in that courtroom

01:00:28.900 | where their behavior and words looked awful.

01:00:32.740 | And I just don't know that exposing that to the world,

01:00:37.740 | I just don't know.

01:00:39.460 | I mean, I understand the point of view

01:00:41.220 | that by bringing that suit, Johnny Depp was saying,

01:00:43.860 | look, yeah, I have to show these awful things

01:00:46.700 | to the world about myself,

01:00:48.300 | but it's not as bad as what she's claimed I've done.

01:00:52.620 | So I get it.

01:00:53.460 | I'm not saying that's incorrect.

01:00:54.300 | And for Amber Heard, I think her response is,

01:00:57.020 | well, for him to say I'm lying, I have to prove my,

01:01:00.580 | but my God, like what an awful thing to watch.

01:01:03.780 | All it really is is just another couple.

01:01:09.500 | You know how banal that is?

01:01:11.940 | You don't met many of those.

01:01:12.780 | - This kind of stuff happens a lot.

01:01:14.340 | - A lot?

01:01:15.580 | It's the norm.

01:01:17.420 | It's not the exception.

01:01:19.460 | They just happen to have like a grand scale

01:01:21.580 | 'cause they have lots of people around them

01:01:23.380 | and lots of money.

01:01:24.620 | But yeah, it's all this, that kind of dysfunction,

01:01:27.020 | that kind of chaos, that kind of he said, she said,

01:01:30.780 | two people with completely differing histories

01:01:33.020 | of what happened in the marriage,

01:01:34.460 | false allegations of domestic violence

01:01:36.580 | or true allegations of domestic violence

01:01:38.420 | that are completely denied by the person.

01:01:40.260 | And you have witnesses that'll say,

01:01:41.340 | oh my God, they never engaged in any kind.

01:01:43.300 | 'Cause again, no one engages in domestic violence

01:01:46.180 | with company over.

01:01:47.860 | You don't like invite friends.

01:01:49.220 | Like people always say, oh no, I saw them.

01:01:50.780 | They seemed so happy.

01:01:51.780 | Like people always do this to me as a divorce lawyer.

01:01:54.140 | They come in and they go, well, here's photos of the kids

01:01:56.940 | smiling with me.

01:01:58.380 | So that's proof that like I'm a good dad.

01:02:00.300 | And I'm like, there's photos of Jeffrey Dahmer

01:02:02.180 | smiling with people he ate later.

01:02:05.620 | And you think these photos prove something?

01:02:08.220 | Like I don't, the lack of,

01:02:10.500 | I'm in the middle of a very complex domestic violence trial.

01:02:13.460 | And the entire defense on the other side is,

01:02:16.060 | well, we have photos of them on vacation

01:02:18.180 | where they look very happy and she never called the cops.

01:02:21.660 | That's no defense at all.

01:02:23.300 | Like most victims of intimate partner abuse

01:02:25.340 | don't call the cops.

01:02:26.940 | They don't identify,

01:02:28.580 | self-identify as victims of domestic violence.

01:02:31.780 | - And they probably have many stretches of time

01:02:34.620 | of intense happiness or happiness.

01:02:36.860 | - Of course.

01:02:37.700 | And by the way, perpetrators of domestic violence

01:02:40.220 | are charismatic.

01:02:41.660 | How else would they get victims?

01:02:44.860 | It's not like if they were ogre-ish,

01:02:47.060 | no one would sign on for that relationship.

01:02:49.060 | It's that when they're good, they're so good

01:02:51.740 | that when they're bad, you go, but wait, no, that's not him.

01:02:54.380 | The really good person's him or her.

01:02:57.340 | We saw that in the public testimony of that Dep Heard thing

01:03:01.340 | is there were moments where you look at her and go,

01:03:04.580 | oh my God, like I want one just like that.

01:03:06.940 | And there are moments where you listen to the testimony

01:03:08.620 | and go, oh my God, she's awful.

01:03:10.940 | Like what, that's just evil.

01:03:13.340 | And the same for him.

01:03:14.580 | So I really, this should teach us something about

01:03:19.580 | how not only are there two sides to every story,

01:03:23.740 | like that there's just so much complexity and nuance

01:03:26.660 | to these relationships.

01:03:27.500 | But I think everyone was asking the question,

01:03:29.940 | whether you were team Dep, team Heard or team,

01:03:32.300 | I could care less about either of these people.

01:03:34.660 | Everybody's looking at it going, why?

01:03:38.060 | Like why, 8 billion people in the world.

01:03:40.460 | Why did you stay together?

01:03:41.740 | Just break up, you're miserable.

01:03:42.940 | It's obvious, it's obvious you're not,

01:03:45.180 | this can't be worth it.

01:03:47.180 | - I've actually become friendly with Camille Vasquez,

01:03:49.940 | who's the lawyer on the Dep side.

01:03:51.740 | She's an incredible woman.

01:03:53.140 | - Great lawyer.

01:03:53.980 | - And just a great human being.

01:03:55.900 | Just how passionate she's about her work.

01:03:57.460 | I mean, you radiate this kind of same passion.

01:04:00.020 | Like she's just truly happy doing what she does.

01:04:02.860 | And, but also where the stress of a case is like,

01:04:07.860 | takes, like it is, becomes her.

01:04:11.940 | She's, you can't sleep, all this kind of stuff.

01:04:14.020 | Which is fascinating.

01:04:15.460 | - I think that's a function of our professions.

01:04:17.420 | We, even after 20 plus years of doing this,

01:04:21.500 | like the night before a trial, I can hardly sleep.

01:04:24.540 | And I--

01:04:25.380 | - Excitement, fear?

01:04:26.220 | - Yes, yes.

01:04:27.820 | All of that, all of that.

01:04:29.820 | And I even have moments as I pull up to the courthouse

01:04:34.420 | and I listen, I wear certain cuff links

01:04:36.580 | that are like my lucky cuff links or something.

01:04:39.060 | And I pull up to the courthouse,

01:04:40.860 | I walk into the courtroom and I have this feeling

01:04:42.940 | in the pit of my stomach.

01:04:44.540 | And then it starts.

01:04:46.180 | And the moment it starts, something in me goes,

01:04:50.340 | oh yeah, I know how to do this.

01:04:52.340 | And it's instantly, like I just, I own it, I love it.

01:04:56.580 | And it's, yeah, it's the people that love this job,

01:04:59.460 | being a trial lawyer,

01:05:02.020 | being a particularly a divorce trial lawyer,

01:05:04.380 | family law trial lawyer.

01:05:06.300 | It's, I love it.

01:05:07.420 | I love, I love it more than I loved it

01:05:10.060 | when I started doing it.

01:05:10.940 | I still, I can't imagine spending five days a week

01:05:14.940 | looking forward to two.

01:05:16.100 | I love what I do.

01:05:18.580 | I don't know that I'll ever love anyone

01:05:20.700 | or anything more than I love the work.

01:05:24.220 | - So I saw you on the talk with Steve Harvey

01:05:28.780 | a bunch of times and I always loved it.

01:05:30.980 | One thing just sticks in my head from something he said

01:05:34.560 | as advice that if you and your partner, your spouse,

01:05:40.020 | are, if there's a fight, there's a difficult thing

01:05:42.780 | you have to deal with, keep that to yourself.

01:05:45.820 | Don't talk to anyone else.

01:05:47.140 | Like that's a little, like what does he say?

01:05:49.380 | Like a two-armed circle or something,

01:05:51.300 | whatever the expression is.

01:05:52.460 | But basically resolve it all internally.

01:05:55.220 | Don't, like when you face the world,

01:05:58.540 | you have a front of like,

01:06:01.220 | don't take sides against the family.

01:06:02.780 | - Yeah.

01:06:03.620 | Yes, like it all boils down to Godfather.

01:06:07.140 | - Everything boils down to Godfather references.

01:06:08.940 | It really does.

01:06:09.780 | - Yeah, you don't take sides against the family.

01:06:11.420 | You don't show that weakness to the world.

01:06:16.420 | I mean, again, I don't know that Steve in candor

01:06:21.420 | would say you shouldn't discuss it

01:06:22.820 | with your own therapist, you know?

01:06:24.740 | But I think what he's saying is don't project it out

01:06:26.700 | to the world, don't share that,

01:06:28.760 | because I think it can change the way people

01:06:32.580 | view your relationship, which then will change

01:06:34.860 | the way you view your relationship, you know?

01:06:37.940 | And so I think don't run reckless

01:06:42.180 | when it comes to that primary relationship.

01:06:46.540 | Don't run your mouth recklessly.

01:06:48.260 | - Yeah, it's one of the things I mentioned to you offline

01:06:51.260 | that my now close friend Joe Rogan,

01:06:55.260 | I've never heard him ever speak negatively of his wife.

01:06:58.660 | It's always like super positive,

01:07:00.380 | how awesome of a person she is.

01:07:02.020 | And that to me has always been an inspiration

01:07:03.780 | to do the same for everybody in my life,

01:07:06.380 | to always speak positively about them.

01:07:09.020 | That has probably a virtuous spiral effect.

01:07:13.620 | - I'm sure.

01:07:14.460 | That's probably because he has a great wife,

01:07:19.100 | and he has a great wife in part because of that.

01:07:22.300 | Like I think it's clear that he's in her corner

01:07:26.580 | and cheering for her, it's clear she's cheering for him.

01:07:29.460 | It's not like Joe Rogan's not a man who has opportunity.

01:07:33.540 | I mean, he's surrounded by UFC ring girls, for God's sakes.

01:07:35.980 | Like this is a guy who has all the opportunity in the world,

01:07:38.020 | and he seems to be quite a fan of his wife.

01:07:40.420 | And that's a superpower, like that's a real thing.

01:07:44.180 | Now the question is, he doesn't seem to talk about it,

01:07:48.540 | like, "Oh, I gotta really work at that."

01:07:51.380 | And that's not a man who's afraid

01:07:52.700 | to talk about what he works at.

01:07:54.740 | He's pretty honest about, "Man, yeah,

01:07:56.340 | "I gotta work really hard to stay in show.

01:07:58.300 | "I gotta work really hard to be able to do this.

01:07:59.780 | "Like, yeah, I'm not good at memorizing that,

01:08:01.540 | "it takes time."

01:08:02.740 | But I've never heard him say like,

01:08:04.220 | "Oh, marriage is a lot of work."

01:08:06.140 | And I think that's to his credit,

01:08:08.380 | because it seems like they're enjoying that.

01:08:11.700 | And it's also not incredibly public.

01:08:14.780 | Like it's not something,

01:08:15.700 | most people couldn't pick her out of a lineup.

01:08:17.540 | - He kept it private for many years,

01:08:19.300 | and just because it's a private joy,

01:08:21.820 | it's a private, deep, meaningful, intimate partnership.

01:08:25.140 | That's interesting, that's also an inspiration.

01:08:27.700 | Not everything about your life has to be this,

01:08:30.620 | like, "Look at me, I'm happy.

01:08:32.940 | "I'm in a happy relationship, everything is wonderful."

01:08:35.420 | Especially that, I think there is something about

01:08:38.660 | the womb-like, cocoon-like joy, you know, of love.

01:08:44.660 | You know, when you're just tucked in, snuggled in,

01:08:50.500 | like just pressed against each other with that.

01:08:53.140 | Like that's such a, you know, like a,

01:08:56.420 | it's just the two of you.

01:08:57.620 | - Yeah. - And that's lovely.

01:08:58.780 | You know, and that's such a good thing.

01:09:01.580 | Like we were just dying for connection, you know?

01:09:04.060 | And that connection is so big, it's so everything.

01:09:08.740 | You know, one of my earliest psychedelic experiences,

01:09:12.620 | probably when I was a teenager,

01:09:14.820 | but a theme that's been persistent

01:09:16.540 | in every psychedelic experience I've ever had,

01:09:19.420 | is this idea of like everything is connection.

01:09:22.780 | Everything is being pressed to someone and with them,

01:09:29.060 | you know, like the warmth of human connection.

01:09:31.460 | Like one of the reasons I enjoy listening to your work

01:09:35.180 | and your perspective has always been

01:09:36.860 | that I think at the core, you see connection and love.

01:09:41.860 | And I think for me, from my earliest experiences

01:09:46.940 | with psychedelics at, you know, 16, 17,

01:09:51.580 | I was very attuned to that.

01:09:54.700 | I was very much, that was put on my radar by psychedelics.

01:09:59.300 | And just stayed part of my consciousness forever.

01:10:02.820 | And I think I had a 30 something year break from psychedelics

01:10:05.900 | but it was like, when I came back to it,

01:10:07.420 | I went, oh yeah, it's still there.

01:10:08.820 | That's still the core of everything, is connection.

01:10:12.500 | - I mean, it's fascinating how deeply you value connection,

01:10:15.340 | how empathic you are,

01:10:17.340 | that you would be doing what you're doing,

01:10:19.940 | which is, or is it not?

01:10:23.020 | It's not counterintuitive. - I think it's the opposite.

01:10:24.580 | No, I think it's actually why I'm well-suited for what I do.

01:10:28.420 | I think what I do is I have to learn the story of my client

01:10:33.420 | and know it and feel it very deeply.

01:10:37.140 | And I have to feel it in a very human way

01:10:40.660 | that's very compassionate to this person.

01:10:43.540 | And then I have to feel it and understand it in a way

01:10:46.540 | that's incredibly antagonistic to it

01:10:48.740 | so I can shore up defenses.

01:10:51.100 | So I have to feel this person's story and feelings

01:10:57.260 | from every possible angle

01:10:59.180 | because every one of them is a vulnerability

01:11:01.260 | and every one of them is a potential strength

01:11:03.140 | and a potential defense.

01:11:04.420 | And so I actually think it's my number one,

01:11:08.660 | other than extemporaneous speaking ability,

01:11:11.580 | it is my number one job tool,

01:11:15.020 | is the ability to radically empathize

01:11:19.420 | and to put myself in the emotional state of someone

01:11:22.220 | in its best possible light and its worst possible light

01:11:26.140 | so that I can see, again, the defense

01:11:28.300 | and I can see the vulnerability.

01:11:30.020 | - But I mean, so that's beautifully put,

01:11:32.780 | but also just to bear witness to this connection

01:11:37.180 | broken in the most dramatic way

01:11:40.220 | over and over and over and over.

01:11:41.740 | - That part is hard,

01:11:43.100 | but I was a hospice volunteer for many, many years

01:11:46.860 | when I first got out of college.

01:11:48.620 | And it really showed me a lot about,

01:11:55.580 | what is sadness?

01:11:59.020 | What is tragic?

01:12:00.540 | And what is just inevitable decay?

01:12:03.140 | What is pain and decay?

01:12:04.900 | Like we all die.

01:12:06.740 | Like we play a game you can't win to the utmost.

01:12:10.220 | And so if we know the answer to all of this

01:12:13.300 | is you're going to die,

01:12:15.580 | then what do we do with the rest of that time?

01:12:17.180 | If all your stuff is just stuff,

01:12:19.260 | it's just gonna go to the,

01:12:20.100 | you know, the money's gonna go,

01:12:21.380 | like everything's, your looks is gonna go,

01:12:23.060 | your everything's gonna go,

01:12:24.180 | love's gonna end one way or the other,

01:12:26.020 | then what are we doing?

01:12:27.340 | You know, and again, I think it's love and connection,

01:12:30.100 | but what I'm doing for a living is helping,

01:12:34.620 | and I don't look at it as what I'm doing

01:12:36.940 | is helping people beat the crap out of each other.

01:12:39.420 | I look at it as I'm trying to help a client

01:12:42.540 | build their post-divorce life

01:12:46.100 | to sort of rise from the ashes

01:12:48.420 | of that which has fallen apart

01:12:50.180 | and move on to the next chapter

01:12:51.700 | and refocus and have the things they need,

01:12:54.420 | financially, emotionally, whatever it might be,

01:12:56.060 | interpersonally, in terms of with their kids.

01:12:58.060 | And so for me, it's actually a job

01:13:00.060 | that is very consistent with my desire

01:13:03.100 | to build connection and to be empathetic.

01:13:05.940 | - And witnessing the ashes doesn't make you cynical

01:13:08.260 | about the whole thing of love.

01:13:10.300 | - No, because again, you know,

01:13:12.820 | 56% of marriages end in divorce,

01:13:15.100 | but 84% are remarried within five years.

01:13:18.420 | Like we keep doing it over and over again.

01:13:21.540 | - And that's a good thing.

01:13:22.380 | - I think it is a good thing.

01:13:23.980 | - The mess of it, the absurdity of it,

01:13:26.180 | the hypocrisy of it, that's something beautiful about that.

01:13:31.020 | - Well, it's just the return is so great on the investment.

01:13:34.020 | Like, listen, man, I've had more than one dog.

01:13:37.460 | Like when my dog died, the first dog I had died,

01:13:42.060 | I remember when I'm never gonna love again.

01:13:44.340 | I'm done, I'm done with this.

01:13:46.380 | I will never expose myself to this kind of pain again.

01:13:50.180 | I'll never have to take the dog bed

01:13:52.900 | and put it in the closet and like, ugh.

01:13:56.180 | And then some friend called me and said,

01:14:01.380 | "We have an adoption event.

01:14:02.620 | Can you just watch this dog for 24 hours

01:14:04.940 | and then we'll take him, you know, we just need to,"

01:14:06.500 | you know, and I went, "Yeah, all right,

01:14:08.100 | I'll watch a dog for the night," you know,

01:14:10.140 | and this dog come in and he said, "Oh, he has mange.

01:14:12.380 | He's not gonna, fuck, I got another dog."

01:14:14.660 | He walked in, my heart went, "Yeah, I got a dog."

01:14:17.660 | And now that dog is 13 years old and his eyes are cloudy

01:14:22.660 | and he doesn't go up the stairs real well

01:14:25.900 | and he's gonna break my heart.

01:14:27.540 | And I wouldn't change that for the world.

01:14:32.140 | I'm still there.

01:14:33.760 | I'm still struggling for the second one.

01:14:35.340 | I've lost a dog and it broke my heart.

01:14:37.860 | Yeah.

01:14:38.900 | But-

01:14:39.900 | And you'll never, you'll never lose that pain.

01:14:44.740 | But I promise you, your heart has an infinite capacity

01:14:49.740 | for the kind of love you felt with that dog.

01:14:53.080 | And you'll never feel a love that replaces the whole,

01:14:57.580 | like there will never be another buster for me.

01:15:00.820 | But there was Cabba.

01:15:04.080 | And like, you know what?

01:15:07.860 | Like, and when he's gone,

01:15:09.260 | there will never be another one of him.

01:15:11.820 | But you know what?

01:15:12.660 | When that stupid puppy that was five months old

01:15:17.460 | stumbled in, I went, "I guess I'm gonna do this again."

01:15:22.020 | And you know what?

01:15:22.860 | I'm so glad.

01:15:23.680 | I'm so glad.

01:15:24.520 | And I know, by the way, I know now,

01:15:25.820 | because and that's where I've said,

01:15:27.380 | like, you know, it's that Joseph Brodsky poem,

01:15:29.420 | you know, a song.

01:15:30.420 | Like, "I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear."

01:15:33.420 | Like, "I wish I didn't know the pain."

01:15:35.500 | But you know what?

01:15:36.320 | Like, I don't care.

01:15:38.540 | I don't care.

01:15:39.360 | And I believe we don't care.

01:15:41.060 | And I think there's something to that.

01:15:42.860 | If something hurts so badly,

01:15:46.020 | and you go, "I'm gonna do it again.

01:15:47.660 | "I'm gonna do it again."

01:15:48.500 | Then it must be of value.

01:15:49.980 | It must be of real value.

01:15:51.540 | - There's also a different perspective on it, that pain.

01:15:55.340 | So there's that from Louis,

01:15:57.700 | the show of this interaction with an old man,

01:15:59.820 | with Louis C.K.

01:16:00.660 | And he says that,

01:16:01.960 | 'cause Louis is mourning the loss of,

01:16:04.980 | got split up, he got dumped or whatever.

01:16:07.820 | He's mourning the loss of that partner of love.

01:16:10.900 | And the old man says that that is the best part.

01:16:15.900 | Like, missing the love is still love.

01:16:19.500 | The real bad part is when you forget it,

01:16:22.860 | when the pain fades, and it's all gone.

01:16:26.580 | But the pain is actually a kind of celebration

01:16:29.180 | of the love you had.

01:16:30.020 | - Of course.

01:16:30.840 | - Well, the opposite of love isn't hate.

01:16:32.420 | The opposite of love is indifference.

01:16:34.860 | There's no question about that.

01:16:36.700 | I mean, hate is a passionate emotion.

01:16:38.860 | Love is a passionate emotion.

01:16:40.340 | But, and there is a school of thought that says

01:16:42.700 | that only unfulfilled love can be truly romantic.

01:16:46.780 | But I believe that,

01:16:49.500 | it's what I think I learned from hospice,

01:16:52.260 | is that I think, for me,

01:16:56.060 | knowing the impermanence is the thing.

01:17:00.940 | You know, it's the key.

01:17:02.100 | - Yeah, it's finite.

01:17:03.180 | Eventually it's gonna be over.

01:17:04.700 | And so, like, that intensifies the feeling,

01:17:07.260 | that that's when you can have pure love without the drama.

01:17:10.980 | - Dogs are, for me, a great example.

01:17:14.500 | And again, I don't know what it all means, right,

01:17:16.620 | existentially, but I just feel like they have,

01:17:20.420 | that kind of love has to be here to teach us something.

01:17:25.340 | And I feel like the fact that they're so amazing

01:17:28.340 | and just so loving and so wonderful,

01:17:30.380 | and the bond we feel is so amazing and deep

01:17:32.940 | and doesn't require a lot of maintenance.

01:17:36.500 | And yet it's so finite.

01:17:38.740 | Like, it's just this short little lifespan.

01:17:41.900 | And I feel like there's just such a lesson there.

01:17:44.780 | You know, there's so much there to unpack

01:17:47.500 | about the nature of connection and loss.

01:17:52.500 | And, you know, that your heart has this infinite capacity.

01:17:57.740 | Like when you're, I'm telling you,

01:17:59.460 | when my dog died, when Buster died,

01:18:02.220 | I remember I'm thinking with certainty,

01:18:05.340 | I will never do this again

01:18:07.340 | because I'll never love that way again.

01:18:09.620 | I'll never love a dog the way I love this dog.

01:18:13.540 | And it's just not true.

01:18:14.780 | That's just not true.

01:18:16.220 | Like you have this infinite capacity.

01:18:19.660 | And that makes it scary, actually,

01:18:22.580 | because like right now,

01:18:24.780 | there's so many people you could love.

01:18:27.460 | There's so many dogs you could love.

01:18:29.060 | Like there's so much out there.

01:18:31.420 | And it requires a certain bravery

01:18:34.380 | and tremendous amount of risk to do it, you know?

01:18:37.540 | - And a commitment.

01:18:39.980 | 'Cause I think to really experience love,

01:18:42.660 | you should just dive in.

01:18:44.620 | 'Cause there is a huge number of people,

01:18:46.660 | but to really like, I mean, you have to like

01:18:50.620 | really dive into the full complexity,

01:18:56.380 | the full range of another human being.

01:18:58.540 | - Yeah, which is hard.

01:19:00.380 | Because we don't even, I don't know that we even

01:19:02.260 | feel comfortable diving into the full range of ourselves.

01:19:05.340 | You know, there's pieces of ourselves

01:19:06.500 | we try to push away or not think about.

01:19:08.780 | - Okay, so speaking of the whole sociopath slash empath

01:19:13.580 | that is all embodied in one human being, that is you,

01:19:16.620 | let's go back to some cases, perhaps,

01:19:19.220 | that you've worked on,

01:19:21.260 | just something that stands out to you.

01:19:23.180 | What's maybe the craziest,

01:19:26.420 | most complicated thing you've worked on?

01:19:28.140 | Is there something that pops to mind?

01:19:29.540 | - Craziest would be different than most complicated.

01:19:31.460 | - Let's go craziest.

01:19:32.300 | - Yeah, so craziest.

01:19:33.900 | Gosh, that's a great question.

01:19:37.860 | So from a chaos standpoint, I mean,

01:19:40.900 | I see so many bizarre fact patterns

01:19:43.140 | and so many variations of people cheating with people,

01:19:46.020 | people sleeping with the nanny,

01:19:47.500 | people sleeping with someone's, a relative of their spouse,

01:19:51.260 | people having same sex or polyamorous relationships

01:19:54.340 | and the other person doesn't even know

01:19:55.540 | they're not monogamous.

01:19:57.100 | So much craziness that you could fill 15 books.

01:20:01.380 | In terms of complexity, I mean,

01:20:05.420 | emotionally complex is any custody case

01:20:08.060 | is emotionally complex

01:20:09.820 | because you're dealing with parenting issues

01:20:12.660 | and what makes a good parent, I think,

01:20:14.860 | is a very tricky question because,

01:20:16.900 | I'm trying to convince a judge who's a better parent

01:20:23.220 | and that is so loaded with subjective value judgments.

01:20:28.220 | - Is there, just to linger on the maternal presumption,

01:20:34.180 | is that a thing you come face to face with often?

01:20:38.500 | - Well, there was, I mean, it was real.

01:20:40.580 | It was the law.

01:20:41.620 | There was something in the law

01:20:42.700 | called the maternal presumption.

01:20:44.180 | It was also known as the tender years doctrine,

01:20:46.380 | which meant that a child under the age of seven

01:20:48.540 | was presumed to be in the custody of the mother

01:20:51.380 | unless you could show she was an unfit mother.

01:20:54.820 | So that's where the idea of like,

01:20:56.860 | someone has to be proven an unfit mother came from.

01:20:59.620 | Now in the '80s, 1980s, that was changed.

01:21:04.620 | But, under my skin is under my sovereignty.

01:21:09.940 | I mean, you can't suggest that there isn't in the world

01:21:14.940 | a suggestion that a mother who births a child

01:21:19.980 | and feeds a child with her body

01:21:22.620 | doesn't have a particular bond with a child

01:21:26.300 | that's different than a father's bond with a child.

01:21:29.980 | So where do we put that?

01:21:32.780 | How much importance do we put on it?

01:21:34.980 | Now that there's better and more research

01:21:38.340 | in the mental health field

01:21:39.580 | about attachment theory and infants,

01:21:42.580 | there's also a lot of research on how is attachment formed?

01:21:48.740 | How should parenting schedules be put together

01:21:51.500 | based on attachment theory?

01:21:54.460 | But, there's conflicting perspectives on that.

01:21:58.020 | - And so as judge to judge,

01:21:59.340 | you see like, is there a lot of variation?

01:22:01.300 | - Yeah, there is because there's lots of kinds of judges.

01:22:03.820 | Like there's judges that are thoughtful, enlightened,

01:22:06.140 | interested in the mental health research.

01:22:08.300 | And there's judges that just want,

01:22:10.620 | were unsuccessful lawyers that were good politically

01:22:13.740 | and got elected and they just wanna,

01:22:16.380 | they just want a job where like they show up at nine o'clock

01:22:18.860 | they have a lunch break from 12 until two o'clock

01:22:21.660 | and that they leave at 4.30

01:22:22.820 | and they get a certain number of weeks vacation

01:22:24.300 | and a pension after 20 years.

01:22:26.140 | - So what is in general the process of these custody battles?

01:22:31.060 | Like what's the landscape?

01:22:34.780 | - Well, most the overwhelming majority of custody cases

01:22:39.660 | don't end up in my office.

01:22:41.980 | They are a negotiation between two people

01:22:46.980 | that love their children more than they dislike

01:22:49.300 | their soon to be ex.

01:22:51.500 | So the overwhelming majority of cases

01:22:54.620 | are just two people going, okay,

01:22:57.700 | how are we gonna make decisions together?

01:23:00.300 | 'Cause there are decisions that have to be made about kids.

01:23:02.700 | Will they go to public or private school?

01:23:04.220 | Can they go on medication if they need it or not?

01:23:06.700 | Should we change pediatricians?

01:23:08.220 | You know, all those kinds of things.

01:23:09.780 | How do we make decisions?

01:23:11.100 | And when will we each spend time with the kids?

01:23:13.860 | And so most custody cases are just that.

01:23:16.340 | Most custody cases are just a discussion,

01:23:18.580 | a negotiation between counsel about those issues.

01:23:22.860 | And they're not ugly and they're not anything.

01:23:26.220 | They're just people.

01:23:27.380 | Again, sometimes people have differing perspectives,

01:23:29.780 | you know, but sometimes people haven't thought

01:23:31.580 | through their perspective.

01:23:32.700 | So as a divorce lawyer,

01:23:33.660 | a lot of what I'm doing is counseling a person

01:23:36.860 | because they come in and say,

01:23:39.300 | well, I've been the person who handles, you know,

01:23:41.700 | all of the homework and all of the everything.

01:23:44.020 | So he should only see the kids on weekends.

01:23:46.500 | And there's a logic to that.

01:23:49.220 | Like I've always done the homework with the kids.

01:23:50.900 | So I'm the parent who's in charge of the homework.

01:23:52.460 | And he's obviously not done that before.

01:23:55.380 | But there's also a logic that you can then say, right,

01:23:59.100 | but then you're doing all the heavy lifting of parenting

01:24:01.700 | and he's doing none of that.

01:24:02.940 | And you were a married couple and living together.

01:24:05.340 | So he was trusting you to do that

01:24:07.020 | because you're good at it and you seem to like it.

01:24:09.740 | So maybe now we want him to have to do

01:24:12.100 | some of the heavy lifting of parenting

01:24:13.980 | because we don't want the child when they're 13 to say,

01:24:17.420 | I love dad.

01:24:18.700 | We have nothing but a good time together.

01:24:20.180 | Whereas you make me do my homework and eat my broccoli.

01:24:22.420 | Dad's the grass on the other side of the fence

01:24:24.100 | that's greener.

01:24:25.140 | So sometimes it's about educating a client

01:24:26.820 | to like change their frame, you know,

01:24:28.620 | to look at this differently.

01:24:30.260 | Yeah, okay, we always go to my mother's for Thanksgiving.

01:24:32.860 | So I need every Thanksgiving.

01:24:34.540 | Okay, well, you were married.

01:24:36.060 | So you went to, now you're gonna have new traditions.

01:24:37.980 | Things are changing for your children.

01:24:39.460 | Things are changing for your family.

01:24:40.580 | You're both gonna have new traditions.

01:24:42.140 | So a lot of times it's just educating people

01:24:44.460 | on looking at things in a different way,

01:24:49.220 | looking at their parenting in a different way.

01:24:51.540 | We're not gonna live in the same house anymore,

01:24:53.260 | but we're still gonna parent these child,

01:24:55.380 | you know, this child or these children together.

01:24:57.380 | What's much more interesting,

01:25:00.620 | 'cause like, you know,

01:25:01.740 | I don't get invited to a lot of parties,

01:25:03.020 | but when I get invited to parties,

01:25:04.300 | if somebody says, what do you do for a living?

01:25:07.140 | And I say, I'm a divorce lawyer.

01:25:08.740 | And they go, oh my God, you must have stories.

01:25:10.380 | That's the way everybody's,

01:25:11.220 | oh my God, you must have so many stories.

01:25:13.860 | And if I said, yeah, there was this couple

01:25:15.860 | and they, you know, slowly grew apart

01:25:18.020 | and then they decided that it would be good

01:25:19.460 | for them to end their relationship as a married couple,

01:25:22.400 | but they wanted to continue

01:25:23.340 | to have an amicable co-parenting relationship.

01:25:25.700 | So they divided their assets

01:25:27.100 | and they figured out a good parenting access schedule

01:25:29.620 | that made sure that they both had both leisure time

01:25:32.380 | and responsibilities with the children.

01:25:34.260 | People would be like, that's the worst fucking story.

01:25:36.020 | Yeah, that's so boring.

01:25:37.260 | - Yeah.

01:25:38.100 | - So what they really want is the like,

01:25:39.380 | and then he was sleeping with the nanny

01:25:41.100 | and then she caught him.

01:25:42.300 | So, you know, the truth is like,

01:25:44.980 | people want to hear about those flame outs.

01:25:48.660 | And by the way, those are super interesting as a lawyer.

01:25:51.580 | Like, it's super interesting.

01:25:53.980 | - It's usually gonna be what, infidelity?

01:25:56.020 | You do have a chapter called, Everybody Fucks the Nanny.

01:25:58.780 | - Everybody's Fucking the Nanny.

01:26:00.180 | Yeah, there's a nanny fascination out there.

01:26:03.300 | I try to explain it in the book, but yeah.

01:26:05.420 | I mean, I've had some great nanny stories.

01:26:08.020 | I mean, people run off with the nanny,

01:26:09.660 | people end up getting married to the nanny.

01:26:12.540 | I had one where he convinced her

01:26:15.820 | that they should have a threesome with the nanny.

01:26:17.500 | They got the nanny drunk.

01:26:18.700 | They had a bunch of threesomes with the nanny

01:26:20.540 | and then the nanny and the wife paired up and left him.

01:26:24.460 | - Oh, nice.

01:26:25.300 | - And they're still quite happy.

01:26:26.540 | - That seems like a happy ending to the whole thing.

01:26:28.420 | - For everyone but him, but it was his idea.

01:26:30.860 | - Well, he's really gonna have a nanny fascination now.

01:26:33.620 | - Now he's, yeah, well, now he's gotta see the nanny

01:26:36.340 | who's now the like step-parents to the kids.

01:26:39.220 | And it was his bright idea

01:26:41.860 | of let's have a threesome with the nanny.

01:26:44.180 | Yeah, I mean, the nanny thing, I think is a function of,

01:26:48.180 | in many circumstances, is the characteristics of the wife

01:26:52.940 | that he remembers fondly

01:26:57.540 | and that have been extinguished by the presence of children.

01:27:01.860 | So my words of wisdom is not don't get a nanny

01:27:07.180 | or make sure you get an ugly nanny.

01:27:09.340 | My thought on it is that a woman should remember,

01:27:13.940 | even when she's a mother, that she's also a woman who a man,

01:27:18.860 | they fell in love with each other

01:27:20.620 | and she should take time to be in touch

01:27:22.820 | with the part of herself that is an independent woman

01:27:26.500 | that's interesting and interested.

01:27:28.900 | And there's a lot to be learned from divorced couples

01:27:32.460 | because divorced couples, if you do it right, it's awesome.

01:27:36.380 | I had a wonderful experience parenting and being divorced

01:27:41.180 | 'cause I divorced when my kids were quite young.

01:27:43.780 | My co-parent, my ex-wife is awesome.

01:27:46.860 | She's a great mom, nice person, we're good friends.

01:27:49.860 | And it was great.

01:27:51.380 | I had half the time I had my kids and I could focus on them.

01:27:54.620 | And the other half of the time,

01:27:55.860 | they were with the other person who loves them

01:27:58.020 | as much as I do.

01:27:59.420 | And I didn't have any of the responsibilities of kids.

01:28:01.740 | And I could just have all of the wonderful fun

01:28:04.980 | that you can have when you don't have the responsibilities

01:28:09.460 | that come with full-time caring for children.

01:28:11.960 | - What would you say now on the flip positive side,

01:28:15.660 | we've been talking about the collapse of things.

01:28:19.020 | What about success?

01:28:20.380 | What's the secret to a successful romantic relationship?

01:28:25.220 | - My mom used to say that it's hard to define intelligence,

01:28:28.240 | but you could spot stupid a mile away.

01:28:30.140 | So I'm much better at pointing out where people fall apart

01:28:37.140 | 'cause I spend a lot of time with people

01:28:40.420 | who have fallen apart in their relationship.

01:28:43.780 | So it's easy to then say, well, just don't do what they do.

01:28:48.780 | But I don't know that that's not an oversimplification.

01:28:55.180 | So again, I think the answer is connection.

01:29:00.180 | I think the answer is affection, presence,

01:29:05.820 | mindfulness and presence.

01:29:11.300 | I do think in my personal and professional experience

01:29:16.300 | that most people want you fully,

01:29:24.940 | more than they just want you in a disconnected way.

01:29:28.540 | So if you were to say to your romantic partner,

01:29:33.100 | you can have me for two hours

01:29:35.940 | where I'm giving you my undivided attention

01:29:38.500 | and I'm really joyful to be with you.

01:29:43.700 | Or you can have me for eight hours

01:29:45.380 | where I'm sort of half paying attention

01:29:47.300 | and I kind of wanna be someplace else for part of the time.

01:29:50.100 | There's just no choice there, it's so obvious.

01:29:52.820 | So I think presence is a big piece.

01:29:56.820 | And I think that the you, the me and the we

01:30:01.820 | I think is important because I think in relationships

01:30:09.260 | there's you and there's me and we meet

01:30:12.100 | and something magical happens and we become we.

01:30:19.740 | And now there's you and there's me and there's we.

01:30:23.020 | And then the we gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

01:30:26.300 | And isn't it great?

01:30:27.260 | 'Cause it's such a nice warm place.

01:30:29.700 | It gets so big, but it gets so big that you get small

01:30:34.660 | and me gets small 'cause we.

01:30:37.620 | And if any of us dares to ask,

01:30:40.060 | well, what about you?

01:30:40.940 | What about me?

01:30:41.780 | No, no, no, the we, what, you don't like the we?

01:30:43.220 | You don't wanna be with the we?

01:30:44.340 | Like, well, no, it's not that.

01:30:46.660 | But the we only exists 'cause there was you

01:30:49.500 | and there was me and I really liked you

01:30:51.740 | and you really liked me.

01:30:53.420 | And so we picked each other out of lots of choices.

01:30:57.260 | And now this we is so fucking big.

01:31:00.660 | Like it threatens to just consume all of it.

01:31:03.860 | And I really think that there's something there

01:31:08.860 | we have to look at more honestly.

01:31:11.300 | - So the we should not consume everything,

01:31:13.340 | but at the same time, not be small.

01:31:17.940 | - Well, the we is the you and the me.

01:31:20.340 | And if you mix it so much that you and me loses

01:31:24.820 | its components that all that's left is we,

01:31:31.220 | like, I don't think that that's the way to do it.

01:31:33.260 | I just think there's a,

01:31:35.460 | the world pulls us in that direction.

01:31:38.260 | Like we get told culturally that,

01:31:40.740 | well, why aren't you going with this person to that?

01:31:42.940 | Why would you do that by yourself?

01:31:45.060 | And why?

01:31:46.660 | Like anyone knows that there's joy

01:31:49.060 | in being away from each other

01:31:50.780 | and there's joy being reunited together.

01:31:52.580 | So why don't we speak very honestly about that?

01:31:57.580 | And I think some of that's our own insecurity.

01:32:01.260 | Well, why don't you wanna be with me 24 hours a day?

01:32:03.780 | Aren't I wonderful?

01:32:04.740 | Aren't I delightful?

01:32:05.740 | It's like, wait, what?

01:32:06.860 | - Well, but also probably people are either afraid

01:32:12.020 | or lazy in developing their individual selves.

01:32:15.340 | I mean, it's still,

01:32:17.020 | it's lonely going out there in the world by yourself

01:32:19.740 | and it's comforting in that little cocoon of we.

01:32:22.180 | - I mean, it can also be incredibly adventurous

01:32:24.540 | going out into the world by yourself

01:32:26.140 | and then coming back to the we with a full report.

01:32:28.740 | - Yeah.

01:32:29.580 | - Coming back and saying like, oh my God, guess what I saw?

01:32:31.540 | Guess what I did?

01:32:32.380 | Oh my God, we have to go there together now.

01:32:34.140 | 'Cause all I could think about was you.

01:32:36.460 | While I was there, I was like, oh my God,

01:32:37.540 | she would love this.

01:32:39.340 | That's magical.

01:32:41.060 | That's amazing.

01:32:42.220 | Like, look what I brought you back.

01:32:44.980 | I went into this and then I got you this present from there.

01:32:47.740 | Like there's something, and we know this.

01:32:50.700 | I always thought it was,

01:32:52.740 | like when you watch the old Westerns,

01:32:54.740 | or like the hero's leaving

01:32:57.660 | and he's walking away from the cabin

01:33:00.780 | 'cause he's gonna go fight the gunfight

01:33:02.260 | and she runs up and she goes,

01:33:03.580 | "Please don't go, don't go, stay here with me."

01:33:06.660 | And he like kisses her and then he goes.

01:33:09.340 | If he goes like, yeah, you're right, I'll just stay here.

01:33:11.020 | It's cool.

01:33:11.860 | Like this is, I didn't wanna deal with that anyway.

01:33:13.980 | Like he's not the hero anymore then.

01:33:15.660 | - Yeah.

01:33:16.500 | (laughs)

01:33:17.340 | Yeah, there's deep truth to that.

01:33:18.980 | And then probably, like you mentioned, sex.

01:33:23.420 | - Sexes.

01:33:24.340 | - Probably a big part of it.

01:33:25.420 | Friendship.

01:33:26.940 | That seems to me like a really important one.

01:33:28.820 | - Depends on how you define friend.

01:33:30.300 | Like, you know, if being a friend

01:33:33.420 | means we have some connection to each other

01:33:35.740 | and we have each other's cell phone numbers,

01:33:37.580 | okay, then we're friends.

01:33:39.180 | But if it's a bigger definition than that,

01:33:40.980 | if it's like you've picked me up at the airport,

01:33:43.260 | you know, or like, you know, you're someone I could call.

01:33:46.380 | Then it's like, dude, I gotta hide a body.

01:33:48.260 | Like you get shovel and lime.

01:33:49.980 | - I like how you escalated from airport pickup to murder.

01:33:54.340 | - Yeah, I tried to go the two directions.

01:33:55.620 | Well, I have to tell you, I define, you know,

01:33:57.900 | the Ben Affleck movie, "The Town," you know,

01:34:00.700 | that scene, that's friendship to me.

01:34:03.420 | I mean, to me, the ideal male friendship is the scene

01:34:06.820 | where he says, "I need you to come with me.

01:34:09.380 | "We're gonna hurt some people

01:34:10.460 | "and you never have to ask me about it again."

01:34:12.620 | And he says, "Whose car are we taking?"

01:34:15.140 | And that's sort of like, to me, that's friendship.

01:34:17.540 | So it's a high bar, you know, to be like a friend.

01:34:20.700 | So when you say like friendship,

01:34:22.820 | I think that's the kind of friendship

01:34:25.500 | you should ideally have with your romantic partner.

01:34:27.580 | If you're getting married,

01:34:28.780 | it should be the like, whose car are we taking?

01:34:30.780 | Like it should be that it's you and me.

01:34:33.780 | - To be fair, that bar's reached with me

01:34:36.500 | with a lot of people.

01:34:38.500 | Like if you called me tomorrow, there's a body.

01:34:40.780 | - But you're a big open heart.

01:34:43.100 | - But it's true.

01:34:43.940 | Like I wonder how many people out there are like that

01:34:48.660 | in terms of hiding the body.

01:34:50.580 | - I mean, my theory on this,

01:34:52.300 | 'cause I think I'm like you in that way.

01:34:56.860 | I think I'm very sensitive.

01:35:00.860 | I feel things really deeply, you know?

01:35:05.500 | And I think it's, that's a,

01:35:09.780 | the world is terrifying when you feel things very deeply

01:35:12.740 | because there's so much pain, there's so much betrayal,

01:35:15.500 | there's so many opportunities to be hurt, you know?

01:35:18.620 | And I think when you are that kind of person,

01:35:23.260 | you go through like stages.

01:35:26.300 | And one of them is that I don't care, I don't feel anything.

01:35:28.260 | It doesn't matter, I don't feel anything.

01:35:29.380 | I don't feel anything, I don't feel anything.

01:35:30.740 | Well, you try to convince yourself, I don't feel anything.

01:35:32.620 | It's fine, I don't feel anything.

01:35:34.540 | And then at some point, like, you know,

01:35:36.180 | you do feel all of it.

01:35:37.860 | And then it's like, oh my God, the weight of this is crap.

01:35:39.700 | I mean, I think it's the whole arc of Pink Floyd, The Wall.

01:35:42.300 | It's literally the entire arc of Pink Floyd, The Wall,

01:35:45.820 | you know, and the song "Stop," you know,

01:35:48.780 | where I wanna go home, take off this uniform

01:35:50.580 | and leave the show.

01:35:51.420 | Like you just, when you feel all of it,

01:35:53.460 | the army of hammers coming at you,

01:35:56.340 | the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

01:35:58.300 | you know, the thousand natural shocks,

01:35:59.660 | the flesh is here too.

01:36:01.420 | When you feel all of that deeply, you know,

01:36:05.900 | it's very hard, but it can also be a superpower.

01:36:10.500 | Because I think when you can bring that to a relationship,

01:36:14.420 | when you can bring that to a profession,

01:36:16.700 | like you've done and I've done,

01:36:18.300 | then there's something very magical about that.

01:36:21.940 | The ability to bring it out in someone,

01:36:25.620 | to feel it in yourself, to understand it, you know,

01:36:28.780 | is a gift, it's a wonderful, wonderful gift.

01:36:30.860 | I'm humbled by what it brought me professionally.

01:36:35.780 | And I'd like to think that you and I

01:36:37.180 | have both found professions that enable us

01:36:41.540 | to use that sensitivity, that empathy

01:36:44.580 | in a productive and good way,

01:36:46.860 | and in a fulfilling, a personally fulfilling way.

01:36:49.620 | And ideally in a way that does good for other people.

01:36:52.820 | - You yourself are incredibly successful and high performer.

01:36:59.060 | You've dealt with a lot of CEOs

01:37:01.540 | and just high performers in all walks of life.

01:37:04.260 | What can you say about successful relationships

01:37:09.260 | with those kinds of folks?

01:37:11.020 | - That's a good question.

01:37:13.460 | I think--

01:37:14.580 | - Is it all the same stuff,

01:37:15.540 | or there's something special when they're busier?

01:37:19.100 | - Well, you know, I think when you represent

01:37:23.820 | high net worth individuals, but also high performing,

01:37:27.180 | I would make a distinction between high net worth

01:37:28.740 | and high performing.

01:37:29.580 | So I've done high net worth divorces

01:37:32.260 | where the person's like a trust fund kid,

01:37:34.580 | even though they're an adult,

01:37:35.860 | but they're like, what they did to achieve

01:37:38.300 | their high net worth status is their great grandfather died.

01:37:41.860 | So that is different than someone who is self-made,

01:37:45.620 | who through discipline, focus, entrepreneurship,

01:37:49.700 | whatever it might be, that they have found success.

01:37:54.700 | And there's also a difference between financial success

01:37:58.740 | and fame, 'cause I've represented famous people

01:38:02.700 | that actually did not have that much money

01:38:05.100 | in the scheme of things or much liquidity.

01:38:08.140 | And I've represented people that were not in any way famous

01:38:11.660 | and were very high performing in their field.

01:38:13.820 | Like in New York, we have a lot of finance people.

01:38:16.580 | And what I find is their divorces are challenging,

01:38:21.580 | one on a technical level, because figuring out

01:38:26.540 | what they have and how to divide it is tricky.

01:38:29.060 | Sure, yeah.

01:38:29.900 | Because when something's moving that quickly,

01:38:31.980 | like when your portfolio's movement affects a market,

01:38:36.980 | that's challenging.

01:38:39.220 | Jeff Bezos' divorce for a time,

01:38:43.220 | when it was in its early stages, could affect Amazon stock.

01:38:47.740 | It did, so that's a real thing.

01:38:51.820 | There are businesses that are affected by a divorce.

01:38:56.020 | But in terms of being in a relationship with someone

01:39:01.020 | who is a high performing person,

01:39:05.820 | most of the high performing people I know

01:39:09.780 | are creatures of discipline and routine.

01:39:13.660 | From Joe Rogan, we've talked about any of these people,

01:39:19.260 | like they have a routine, they have a discipline,

01:39:21.060 | they have a focus, they have a way they like to do things,

01:39:24.260 | they have a type of coffee they like to drink,

01:39:26.900 | they have a way that they like to do.

01:39:28.780 | And divorce is a tremendous disruption.

01:39:31.780 | I mean, divorce is fundamental things in your life

01:39:34.420 | are shifted out of your control.

01:39:37.060 | Like your spouse may be the one who has decided

01:39:39.940 | you are no longer going to live in that house.

01:39:42.540 | You will no longer see your children on these days.

01:39:44.980 | So to take that control away from someone

01:39:47.380 | is very, very hard.

01:39:49.100 | I mean, when someone is a high performing,

01:39:51.940 | high net worth person, they are used to being told yes.

01:39:56.380 | They are used to being able to buy their way

01:39:58.340 | out of a problem.

01:40:00.020 | But just like illness, you can hire the best doctor,

01:40:05.020 | but you can't cure cancer because you have a lot of money.

01:40:10.700 | Like you can hire the best lawyer,

01:40:12.860 | but you can't cure a custody case.

01:40:15.900 | And that's, I mean, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's

01:40:19.420 | seemingly endless custody disputes

01:40:22.100 | that have been going on for years now

01:40:24.060 | with the best lawyers in California working on them

01:40:28.340 | is proof of the fact that you can't just buy a resolution

01:40:31.380 | to those things, that you have to go through it

01:40:34.180 | just like everyone else.

01:40:35.680 | - So that lets me ask the question

01:40:39.180 | of how much does a divorce usually cost?

01:40:41.760 | - It's a great question.

01:40:43.940 | Average divorce, I mean, it's sort of like a,

01:40:47.320 | what I always tell clients in the first consultation

01:40:50.520 | is I tell them that the most reasonable question

01:40:52.400 | a person could ask me sitting in that chair across from me

01:40:54.640 | is two, how long is this gonna take?

01:40:57.080 | And how much is it gonna cost?

01:40:58.480 | And those are the two questions I can't answer.

01:41:01.520 | And then the next thing they say is, give me a range,

01:41:04.480 | which is a bit like calling your doctor and saying,

01:41:09.920 | I have a headache, what is it?

01:41:12.400 | Well, I can't tell you, I'd have to do tests.

01:41:17.580 | Give me a range.

01:41:19.340 | Okay.

01:41:20.180 | It's a reaction to the barometric pressure

01:41:24.320 | and it'll be gone in 15 minutes.

01:41:26.340 | Or it's a brain aneurysm and you'll be dead in five minutes.

01:41:29.500 | There's your range.

01:41:30.520 | And so it didn't really help, right?

01:41:34.140 | So I have the least expensive divorce I've ever seen

01:41:42.540 | is two people who, one of whom comes into my office

01:41:47.060 | and says, we've written down on a yellow pad

01:41:50.460 | what we figured out at the kitchen table.

01:41:52.060 | She's gonna keep the house, I'm gonna keep the 401k.

01:41:55.220 | We have a bank account at this bank,

01:41:56.940 | we're gonna split that 50/50.

01:41:58.620 | I'm gonna pay her this much in child support each month

01:42:01.140 | and we're gonna agree from time to time

01:42:03.020 | on what we're gonna do in terms of the schedule

01:42:04.700 | with the kids, but they're primarily gonna live with her.

01:42:06.840 | Can you write this up and make it legally binding?

01:42:09.620 | Yes, 3,500 bucks.

01:42:11.640 | Just as a side note, I have a friend

01:42:14.420 | who went through a divorce and handled it just masterfully

01:42:19.420 | by giving more than he's supposed to

01:42:23.580 | and having nothing but love in his heart

01:42:26.500 | and happiness with the kids and just,

01:42:28.700 | I don't know, that to me is just an inspiration.

01:42:34.620 | His whole view was like, who cares about money?

01:42:38.820 | - Well, yeah.

01:42:39.660 | - Also, he refused with every ounce of his being

01:42:44.660 | to have anything but complete love for the other person.

01:42:49.240 | - Yeah, I've had clients who, with a straight face,

01:42:52.000 | will say to me, "Well, I'm not gonna quibble

01:42:53.440 | "over a few million dollars," and they mean it

01:42:56.500 | because to them, it's numbers on a page.

01:42:58.640 | So I'll personalize this a bit.

01:43:00.520 | So I have a friendly relationship with my ex-wife

01:43:04.520 | who's the mother of my sons who are adults

01:43:07.000 | and we have maintained a very good relationship.

01:43:10.440 | And so now it's many years divorced later,

01:43:13.680 | 17, 18 years later, and we were able

01:43:16.880 | to sort of post-game that relationship,

01:43:18.760 | even our co-parenting relationship.

01:43:20.520 | We kind of post-game it when we chat with each other.

01:43:22.860 | And I remember once saying to her,

01:43:25.560 | "You never screwed around with me when it came to the kids.

01:43:31.640 | "You were always so cool.

01:43:34.900 | "If I called you, if I was having a really bad day at work

01:43:38.820 | "or seeing just an ugly custody case,

01:43:41.680 | "and I just felt like I would call her and say,

01:43:43.980 | "Hey, can I just pick the boys up

01:43:45.380 | "and take them out for ice cream or something tonight?

01:43:47.060 | "I know it's not my night, but would you mind

01:43:48.600 | "if I just took them out for a couple hours?"

01:43:50.220 | She'd be like, "Yeah, sure, come on by."

01:43:51.660 | She was always flexible like that.

01:43:54.060 | And I said to her, "Was that just goodwill,

01:43:56.180 | "like you're just a good person?

01:43:58.040 | "Or what was that about?"

01:43:59.580 | And she was like, "Yeah, it was partly that,

01:44:00.840 | "but it was partly that you never screwed around with me

01:44:03.140 | "when it came to money.

01:44:04.780 | "If the kids needed something,

01:44:05.780 | "or if I needed something as the mother of the kids,

01:44:08.220 | "you were always like, 'Yeah, sure, of course.'"

01:44:10.340 | Her air conditioning kicked out,

01:44:12.100 | and she needed to replace it,

01:44:13.180 | and she didn't have liquidity at the time.

01:44:14.980 | And I didn't have a lot of money at the time

01:44:16.220 | 'cause it was a long time ago.

01:44:17.340 | And I was like, "All right, no, no, no,

01:44:18.220 | "'cause I don't want you hot and upset,

01:44:19.780 | "and I don't want the boys to be in, of course."

01:44:23.300 | And so I think, yeah, when you approach a conflict with,

01:44:28.180 | it's very hard to argue with someone

01:44:29.580 | who won't argue with you.

01:44:31.900 | If the person approaches the argument

01:44:34.940 | from the point of view of, "I'm not gonna argue with you.

01:44:37.980 | "I'm gonna absorb your aggression.

01:44:40.080 | "I'm gonna just not meet it with that.

01:44:43.100 | "I'm gonna meet it with love.

01:44:44.340 | "I'm gonna meet it with positivity."

01:44:46.020 | It doesn't always work, 'cause sometimes people are so angry

01:44:48.280 | that they just are, they're relentless.

01:44:50.780 | But I have to tell you, the louder you get,

01:44:54.300 | the quieter I get, the more you seem irrational.

01:44:59.540 | And that's what I always try to bring

01:45:02.300 | that to court proceedings.

01:45:03.940 | I always try to bring to court,

01:45:05.060 | like if I know my adversary's coming in hard,

01:45:08.620 | I'll come in quiet, slow, and deliberate,

01:45:12.920 | because I want the volume to be turned up

01:45:15.740 | way too high over there.

01:45:18.140 | And then it looks like, "What's the,

01:45:20.540 | "your honor, what's their problem over there?"

01:45:23.460 | And I think that, I say this to clients.

01:45:26.940 | They got a four-year-old,

01:45:27.860 | they're getting divorced, let's say.

01:45:29.940 | There's gonna be a wedding in like 20-something years.

01:45:34.940 | There's gonna be a wedding.

01:45:37.180 | And it's either gonna be the wedding

01:45:39.680 | where they gotta put these people

01:45:40.580 | on opposite sides of the room,

01:45:42.220 | 'cause if they pass each other by the shrimp boat,

01:45:43.900 | they're gonna kill each other,

01:45:45.100 | or it's the wedding where you stand there,

01:45:46.980 | you take some pictures, you kinda go like,

01:45:48.720 | "Yeah, we fucked up this whole marriage thing,

01:45:50.980 | "but man, we did a good job with this kid, did we?"

01:45:53.860 | And the decisions you make right now,

01:45:56.940 | there's a straight line to that wedding.

01:45:59.700 | And so even if you don't like this person,

01:46:01.340 | even if you're mad at them,

01:46:02.280 | even if you're mad at yourself for the choices you made

01:46:04.180 | in choosing them as a co-parent,

01:46:05.660 | like every single Mother's Day for 27 years,

01:46:10.660 | I have told my now long-time ex-wife,

01:46:14.320 | "Happy Mother's Day.

01:46:15.640 | "I'm so glad that we had kids together.

01:46:18.020 | "I'm so glad you're the mother of my kids,

01:46:20.620 | "'cause they wouldn't be who they are

01:46:21.660 | "if it wasn't that they were part me and part you,

01:46:24.580 | "and I'm so grateful for you,

01:46:26.540 | "and I'm always cheering for you."

01:46:29.020 | Like, how hard is that?

01:46:31.020 | How hard is that?

01:46:32.220 | - Well, it's really hard for some people, but it's--

01:46:33.900 | - I don't understand why it's so hard for some people.

01:46:35.940 | I'll tell you, I do find that hard.

01:46:37.940 | There's not a lot of things that I kinda don't understand,

01:46:41.420 | but that's one that I kinda don't understand.

01:46:43.300 | Like, I put in,

01:46:44.560 | one of the weird things I did as a divorce lawyer

01:46:50.300 | that caused a little stir among my colleagues

01:46:55.040 | for a few years was some years ago,

01:46:58.660 | like, we all steal from each other's work, divorce lawyers.

01:47:01.780 | Like, we're like the matrimonial mafia.

01:47:03.780 | Like, we all know each other,

01:47:04.780 | we all deal with each other over and over again,

01:47:07.860 | but we all have the same job,

01:47:10.140 | and so we're the only people

01:47:11.460 | that really know the unique stresses of that job.

01:47:13.700 | So even though we try to kill each other all day,

01:47:15.100 | it's like boxers, like professional fighters.

01:47:16.820 | Like, yeah, your job's to take each other's head off,

01:47:19.100 | but like, nobody knows what the two of you went through

01:47:21.380 | like the two of you.

01:47:22.660 | You know, that's why, like, I always get,

01:47:24.060 | like, I go like all kinds of rubbery

01:47:25.900 | when I see after the fight,

01:47:27.020 | like the two people hug each other.

01:47:28.660 | 'Cause I'm always like, like, yeah, 'cause you know what?

01:47:30.780 | They relate to each other better than anybody.

01:47:33.220 | They suffered, they bled.

01:47:35.040 | You know, the competitors, they bled, you know?

01:47:37.400 | So I really think divorce lawyers,

01:47:40.020 | we have that same kind of relationship.

01:47:41.500 | Like, we went through this stress, you know,

01:47:43.560 | on opposite sides, trying to take each other apart.

01:47:46.000 | And I find that, you know,

01:47:52.220 | we all steal from each other's material

01:47:55.220 | when it comes to separation agreements,

01:47:56.780 | provisions that we use for agreements.

01:47:58.780 | Like, all the agreements are like

01:47:59.700 | these Frankenstein monsters of,

01:48:01.540 | oh, I like his estate planning provisions.

01:48:03.180 | Oh, I like her, you know,

01:48:04.720 | provisions related to maintaining a life insurance policy

01:48:07.020 | to secure the alimony award.

01:48:09.420 | And I wrote this paragraph or this select, this section,

01:48:14.420 | because what occurred to me is that

01:48:17.940 | when you have a child with someone,

01:48:20.140 | and let's say they're three or four or five,

01:48:23.660 | they're old enough to know what Christmas is,

01:48:26.100 | but they're not old enough to go buy a Christmas present.

01:48:28.940 | But they're old enough to know

01:48:31.840 | that you get presents on Christmas

01:48:33.300 | and you give presents on Christmas,

01:48:35.700 | but they're not old enough to buy one for the parent.

01:48:39.600 | So someone has to do that for them.

01:48:42.340 | So I thought, I'm gonna put in a provision that says

01:48:47.280 | that as long as the children are so young

01:48:50.500 | that they can't independently purchase a Mother's Day

01:48:53.860 | or a birthday present for the co-parent,

01:48:56.980 | that you'll take the children either to buy a small gift

01:49:00.580 | or to make a card, something like that.

01:49:03.920 | This struck me as a no-brainer.

01:49:06.720 | Who could disagree with this?

01:49:09.640 | Like, it's not for the person, it's for the kid.

01:49:13.980 | It's so the kid, happy birthday, Mom,

01:49:16.660 | I don't have a present for you,

01:49:17.660 | I don't have a card for you 'cause I'm fucking five.

01:49:20.560 | Like, I'm five.

01:49:21.540 | Like, the kid can't go do that.

01:49:24.480 | So wouldn't you want your child, not your co-parent,

01:49:28.080 | who cares, maybe you want them

01:49:29.240 | to have the worst birthday ever.

01:49:30.420 | Fine, but you don't want your child to be embarrassed.

01:49:33.660 | And I even put in the provision,

01:49:36.080 | the parties acknowledge that it is the intention

01:49:37.900 | of this provision to ensure that the child is not embarrassed

01:49:42.780 | and feels that they were able to...

01:49:45.460 | I cannot tell you how many people refuse to sign that.

01:49:49.860 | How many lawyers said to me, "We're taking that out."

01:49:52.460 | And I went, "Wait, why?

01:49:54.540 | "Well, why does my client have to buy a present

01:49:56.160 | "for your client?"

01:49:57.140 | I said, "They're not buying a present for my client,

01:49:59.980 | "they're buying a present for the child

01:50:02.200 | "to give to my client.

01:50:03.080 | "It could be one of those little $3 boxes of chocolates

01:50:05.840 | "they sell at the drugstore."

01:50:07.740 | Like, it's a kid, they don't know,

01:50:09.260 | they don't know what anything is.

01:50:11.300 | And people, nope.

01:50:12.780 | And I have to tell you, of the conundrums, of the puzzles

01:50:17.780 | that I can't figure out in existence,

01:50:20.900 | that's when I can't figure,

01:50:21.860 | I do not understand why that's so hard.

01:50:25.780 | - That's basically just an illustration

01:50:28.260 | of their complete inability to do anything nice

01:50:31.740 | for the other person.

01:50:32.660 | - Like the level of hatred, the level of vitriol.

01:50:36.460 | Like maybe this is me.

01:50:39.340 | If you apologize, there's not a lot I won't forgive.

01:50:44.340 | Like I'm not saying I'll forget it,

01:50:47.980 | I'm not saying, "Oh, we're totally good

01:50:49.420 | "like it never happened."

01:50:50.820 | I understand that.

01:50:51.980 | But if someone says what I call a non-bullshit apology,

01:50:56.220 | right, like a bullshit apology is,

01:50:57.860 | "Oh, I'm sorry you got so upset when I did that."

01:51:00.060 | Like that's a bullshit apology.

01:51:01.820 | You know, "I'm sorry that you were offended."

01:51:03.860 | That's a bullshit apology.

01:51:05.540 | Or, "I'm sorry for what I did."

01:51:07.860 | Because what are we talking about?

01:51:09.460 | We might not be talking about the same thing.

01:51:11.340 | Or you might be saying, "I'm sorry that you found out

01:51:13.900 | "about that, not that you did it."

01:51:15.660 | So a real apology is, "I lied to you

01:51:20.420 | "and I realized that that hurt you and I'm really sorry.

01:51:24.540 | "I shouldn't have done that.

01:51:26.020 | "I regret that I did that.

01:51:27.940 | "And I know that it hurt you and I'm really sorry."

01:51:31.220 | That's a real apology, okay?

01:51:32.660 | So someone's willing to give you that

01:51:35.820 | and you still wanna walk around with like

01:51:38.460 | the level of vitriol that you will harm your child

01:51:42.500 | rather than do something nice for them,

01:51:45.700 | I don't have a solution.

01:51:47.500 | And I have to tell you, I see that all the time.

01:51:49.620 | Like parental alienation is a thing.

01:51:52.580 | It is a thing.

01:51:53.940 | Like children can be weaponized.

01:51:57.020 | Like I always tell people,

01:51:57.860 | "If you wanna get married, get married.

01:51:59.940 | "Get a prenup ideally, but if you don't have a prenup,

01:52:01.740 | "okay, you're just risking money.

01:52:02.980 | "Don't worry, you're just risking money."

01:52:04.460 | Money and hassle, you know, of paperwork and of time

01:52:08.180 | and of going through an ugly financial divorce.

01:52:10.900 | But you have a kid with somebody,

01:52:12.540 | that is a missile.

01:52:16.340 | Like that person has a power over you

01:52:20.500 | for a long time, if not forever.

01:52:23.300 | So the child could be used as part of a manipulation.

01:52:26.700 | Routinely.

01:52:29.660 | That's heartbreaking.

01:52:30.500 | People weaponize children all the time.

01:52:32.500 | And they do it with the permission of their own conscience

01:52:36.220 | because they genuinely believe,

01:52:38.660 | I'm gonna protect this person, this child from this person

01:52:42.220 | who by the way, is a bad spouse.

01:52:45.660 | But that doesn't mean they were a bad father or bad mother.

01:52:48.300 | You can be bad at being a spouse,

01:52:51.380 | but the skill set of a spouse and of a parent,

01:52:54.300 | it's not necessarily the same.

01:52:56.620 | And I've seen, you know, people alienate children

01:53:02.620 | from a parent in such subtle ways,

01:53:06.780 | but they're so powerful.

01:53:08.180 | And as a lawyer, you know, it doesn't matter what I know,

01:53:10.780 | it matters what I can prove.

01:53:12.820 | And it's very hard to prove alienation

01:53:16.100 | because it's usually a very subtle process.

01:53:20.500 | And the example I always give to people is,

01:53:22.980 | it's a rare kind of crazy person

01:53:25.060 | that will say to a seven-year-old,

01:53:27.540 | "Your dad is a bad person."

01:53:31.060 | "But this, hello, here's your dad."

01:53:36.060 | You just said, "Your dad's a bad person."

01:53:40.500 | You just did it with your eyes.

01:53:41.820 | You did it with the expression on your face

01:53:44.100 | when you handed the phone to the kid.

01:53:45.740 | You told that kid, "Your dad's a bad person."

01:53:47.780 | You didn't have to say it out loud.

01:53:49.260 | And that is something people are guilty of all the time.

01:53:52.900 | You know, when the kid comes home and says,

01:53:56.500 | you know, there's a divorced couple.

01:53:58.340 | Kid comes home and says, "Oh, I met mom's new boyfriend."

01:54:01.140 | And you go, "Oh yeah, that's nice.

01:54:02.380 | Remember, he's not your dad."

01:54:03.940 | You know, like, "Whoa, whoa."

01:54:05.460 | Like, you just told that kid a whole bunch of information

01:54:08.020 | about how he's supposed to feel about this person.

01:54:10.620 | Whereas if you go, "Oh, that's nice.

01:54:11.980 | He's a nice guy.

01:54:12.820 | Oh, that's great.

01:54:13.640 | I heard nice things.

01:54:14.480 | Yeah, I heard he's really, he likes bicycles.

01:54:16.020 | That's cool.

01:54:16.860 | That's really neat."

01:54:17.680 | Like, you just told this kid, "Okay, it's okay.

01:54:19.800 | You can like this person.

01:54:20.780 | It's okay to like this person.

01:54:22.340 | It's okay that your mom is with this person."

01:54:24.780 | Like, and again, whatever you feel about your ex,

01:54:27.780 | your co-parent, usually you love your kid

01:54:31.060 | more than you hate your ex, ideally.

01:54:33.420 | - Also, I wish people would,

01:54:36.480 | even without an apology, forgive each other.

01:54:38.680 | 'Cause I, it goes back to the earlier discussion we had.

01:54:44.140 | Like, I usually forgive people if there's something in them,

01:54:49.140 | especially if we shared something,

01:54:50.800 | but even just if there's something about them

01:54:52.460 | that's beautiful.

01:54:54.060 | Like, it's great that they exist in the world.

01:54:57.380 | So I'm just grateful for that.

01:54:59.700 | And I use that as the fuel of forgiveness.

01:55:02.920 | - I don't know, to me, like forgiveness is very often,

01:55:05.880 | it's for me, you know?

01:55:07.380 | Like when I let go of anger, I feel lighter, you know?

01:55:11.180 | I think my heart enjoys peace.

01:55:14.820 | I mean, partly it's 'cause I fight for a living.

01:55:17.460 | You know, I work in the world of conflict.

01:55:20.080 | Like, I jokingly used to say to my sons

01:55:22.340 | when they were teenagers, you know,

01:55:23.780 | like, "I can only argue if you've paid."

01:55:26.220 | Like, it's not fair to the paying customers.

01:55:28.460 | If I argue with you for free, that's not fair, you know?

01:55:33.200 | - But I think we were talking about the incredibly

01:55:37.820 | wide range that a divorce can cost.

01:55:41.380 | - Yeah, so--

01:55:42.940 | - And you were saying the cheapest one was the yellow--

01:55:45.780 | - Yeah, yellow pad, two people,

01:55:47.420 | came to an agreement, write it up,

01:55:48.820 | make it legally binding, five grand maybe, you know, tops.

01:55:52.420 | But usually 3,500, five grand, that kind of vibe.

01:55:55.700 | Most expensive, millions, millions in counsel fees.

01:56:00.300 | - And that's because of the duration, the complexity--

01:56:02.660 | - Yeah, the duration, the complexity of issues.

01:56:04.820 | Like, I have clients who've paid

01:56:06.820 | two, three million in counsel fees to me.

01:56:09.940 | - So it's like as a custody or like, what's the--

01:56:13.060 | - Well, it can be complex custody that requires a hearing,

01:56:16.820 | that requires expert testimony,

01:56:19.160 | dueling mental health professionals,

01:56:21.280 | opining on the parenting.

01:56:24.720 | It can be a situation where emergency circumstances occur,

01:56:28.320 | like where an individual tries to abscond

01:56:30.160 | to another country with the children

01:56:31.720 | and you have to bring them back under the Hague Convention

01:56:34.920 | on international child abduction.

01:56:36.560 | - Oh, wow.

01:56:37.400 | - Yeah, we've done some Hague cases.

01:56:38.760 | You know, there are cases where people

01:56:43.120 | have very different facts.

01:56:47.360 | Like before I came here today,

01:56:50.040 | a client of mine's soon to be ex-husband

01:56:54.800 | who she's in the middle of a door,

01:56:55.760 | he tested positive for cocaine on a hair follicle test

01:56:59.720 | where it was said he was definitely

01:57:01.120 | not going to test positive and he tested positive.

01:57:04.400 | So it was like, we were scurrying now with,

01:57:06.200 | okay, we gotta get a motion filed,

01:57:08.720 | we gotta suspend access, we gotta protect the kids,

01:57:11.700 | we gotta get in front of a judge,

01:57:12.800 | we gotta think about what are the implications of this

01:57:14.360 | 'cause he was about to transition

01:57:15.480 | to an unsupervised parenting.

01:57:17.120 | Like this is the kind of stuff that can amp up

01:57:21.360 | the amount of work the lawyer has to do,

01:57:23.080 | which then translates to money.

01:57:24.480 | I mean, I get paid for my time, you know,

01:57:28.120 | and the time of my team, you know,

01:57:29.960 | I have attorneys and paralegals who work for me.

01:57:31.760 | So when you have a team of lawyers working on a case,

01:57:35.700 | you can burn tens of thousands of dollars a day

01:57:39.480 | if it's a big enough case.

01:57:42.060 | There are also very complex financial cases.

01:57:45.240 | You know, people move and hide money.

01:57:48.320 | The high net worth space is a different world.

01:57:53.320 | Like if an average person owns a home,

01:57:58.400 | they own a home in their name

01:58:00.800 | or their name with their spouse.

01:58:03.680 | A high net worth person owns an LLC that owns that home.

01:58:08.680 | That LLC is owned by a trust.

01:58:12.640 | They are a beneficial interested party in that trust.

01:58:16.560 | Like this is how some of my clients who make

01:58:19.480 | tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year

01:58:21.920 | pay less in taxes than a cop or a firefighter

01:58:25.600 | because they have structures.

01:58:28.960 | And the structures that were designed

01:58:31.120 | for tax planning purposes,

01:58:33.240 | then in a divorce become very tricky to unwind

01:58:38.240 | and to figure out, wait, no, what is mine

01:58:41.200 | and what is not, you know.

01:58:44.140 | - Well, then that takes us to the question of prenups.

01:58:47.680 | What's your view on prenups, prenuptial agreements?

01:58:50.840 | - It's not popular to quote Kanye West,

01:58:53.040 | but if you ain't no chump, hollow, we want prenup.

01:58:56.200 | We want prenup.

01:58:57.120 | I mean, that's what he had to say.

01:58:58.820 | - Meaning, so prenup was a good idea.

01:59:01.920 | - Prenup is an excellent idea.

01:59:03.360 | A prenup is a contract between two people

01:59:09.640 | that binds their respective rights and obligations

01:59:12.040 | in the event of a divorce when it comes to financial issues.

01:59:14.920 | That's all it is.

01:59:16.360 | And there's a lot of reasons to have them.

01:59:21.000 | And there really aren't any reasons not to have them

01:59:24.200 | other than the fact it requires

01:59:25.800 | an uncomfortable conversation.

01:59:27.520 | - So, I mean, there's a few questions here.

01:59:31.200 | First, do they work legally in general?

01:59:33.760 | - Yes.

01:59:34.600 | If they are crafted correctly,

01:59:36.580 | which is not that hard to do for a lawyer to do.

01:59:40.320 | I'm saying for a lawyer to do,

01:59:42.080 | because with the internet,

01:59:43.400 | everybody thinks, why would I spend $1,000?

01:59:46.120 | I can just Google prenuptial agreement,

01:59:47.880 | and I can get one, and then it'll be,

01:59:49.160 | that is a bad idea.

01:59:50.440 | Like, it is like a will.

01:59:51.800 | Like, if you're gonna have a document

01:59:53.360 | that binds your rights at that level,

01:59:56.480 | it's worth, like, the most expensive prenup

02:00:00.080 | I've ever done was like three grand.

02:00:02.500 | That's ridiculous.

02:00:04.680 | That's not a lot of money.

02:00:06.440 | Like, so there's no reason you wouldn't do it,

02:00:09.580 | but people still, people will still.

02:00:11.300 | I've had clients that have hundreds of thousands of dollars,

02:00:14.260 | and they did their prenup

02:00:15.900 | downloading something from the internet.

02:00:17.820 | And because of some imperfection,

02:00:20.660 | you know, it doesn't have the right,

02:00:21.740 | what's called acknowledgement,

02:00:22.960 | which is the section where the notary signs,

02:00:24.940 | and it has to say that it was duly sworn

02:00:26.600 | before this person on this date.

02:00:28.140 | And if it doesn't have that, it's invalid.

02:00:29.980 | It's not binding.

02:00:30.820 | So there are weird technicalities,

02:00:32.560 | but yeah, prenups are binding.

02:00:34.080 | As long as there has been some minimal asset disclosure,

02:00:37.880 | which is easily done in a prenup,

02:00:40.000 | and as long as there's not a language deficiency,

02:00:43.040 | meaning that the person who is reading it

02:00:45.400 | understands English to the level

02:00:47.160 | that they understand what they're signing,

02:00:48.720 | and if they don't, that at least they've acknowledged

02:00:51.560 | in their native language that there is some opportunity

02:00:54.900 | for this to be translated for them,

02:00:56.720 | yeah, they're binding.

02:00:57.560 | They're presumptively binding.

02:01:00.000 | You know, we live, thankfully, in a culture

02:01:02.640 | where people are allowed to enter

02:01:05.020 | into contracts about money.

02:01:06.680 | - What are some prenups that you've seen

02:01:10.260 | that can be effective, or that people converge towards

02:01:15.260 | in terms of what does an agreement look like?

02:01:18.300 | Because, you know, the popular conception is

02:01:21.140 | when there's no prenup, both sides get half.

02:01:25.980 | - And that's generally true, that both sides get half.

02:01:30.700 | Equitable distribution, which is what the law is called,

02:01:33.680 | it's the law of equitable distribution,

02:01:35.760 | it's not called the law of equal distribution for a reason,

02:01:38.640 | because it's equitable, not equal.

02:01:40.520 | Now, equal, like equitable is presumed to be equal,

02:01:44.880 | but there are exceptions to that presumption,

02:01:47.120 | and that's where lawyers can get into fun and/or trouble,

02:01:51.400 | depending on how you view it.

02:01:53.280 | It's where we make our money.

02:01:54.380 | We make our money arguing that the fair result

02:01:58.840 | will not be just a 50/50 split.

02:02:00.900 | And so there's the very generic standard prenup,

02:02:05.900 | which is easy, and I call that yours, mine, and ours.

02:02:11.720 | Like, if it's in your name, it's yours,

02:02:14.060 | whether it's an asset or a liability.

02:02:16.480 | My name, it's mine, joint names, we split it 50/50.

02:02:19.280 | Simple, clean.

02:02:20.480 | And you go in to the marriage now

02:02:22.960 | knowing what the rules are.

02:02:24.380 | So if you get a bonus at work,

02:02:26.420 | and you put it in your sole name,

02:02:28.180 | then it's your separate property in the event you divorce.

02:02:31.540 | You go out and buy a boat,

02:02:33.700 | and she doesn't support you buying the boat,

02:02:35.260 | but you got a big loan on this boat.

02:02:37.420 | You're responsible for that loan.

02:02:39.580 | So I like that because I like people having some control,

02:02:44.420 | and I also like people having to have discussions.

02:02:47.280 | Well, why are we putting that bonus just in your bank account?

02:02:50.380 | Why wouldn't we put it in the joint bank account?

02:02:52.180 | We should have that discussion while we're married,

02:02:53.940 | not when we're in a divorce lawyer's office 10 years later,

02:02:56.580 | because we should be able to talk

02:02:57.620 | about those kinds of things.

02:02:59.080 | So, you know, what's interesting about prenups

02:03:03.660 | is that somehow people think there's something,

02:03:08.500 | like, it takes away from the romance of a marriage.

02:03:12.180 | But I've said it before, and I'll say it again,

02:03:15.180 | all marriages end.

02:03:16.720 | They end in death or divorce.

02:03:19.200 | So having life insurance or having a will,

02:03:22.080 | it doesn't mean you can't wait to die.

02:03:23.860 | It doesn't mean you're looking forward to death.

02:03:25.380 | It doesn't mean that you're predicting,

02:03:28.020 | you know, your demise sometime imminently.

02:03:30.660 | It just means that, you know,

02:03:32.140 | you're being realistic and honest.

02:03:33.620 | So when you marry, and I don't mean spiritually marrying,

02:03:37.980 | having a marriage ceremony, I mean legally marrying,

02:03:41.660 | you're making changes to your rights

02:03:46.100 | and obligations under law.

02:03:47.580 | That's what you're doing.

02:03:48.420 | Like marriage, from a legal standpoint,

02:03:51.340 | what we mean when we say I got married,

02:03:53.460 | is a state agency.

02:03:57.000 | It's been created by the state.

02:03:58.860 | Like this is a legal status that most people

02:04:02.960 | who are in it know nothing about.

02:04:05.980 | They just did the most legally significant thing

02:04:10.260 | they're ever going to do other than dying,

02:04:13.460 | and they have no idea what rights and obligations

02:04:17.700 | it created in them.

02:04:19.160 | And the first time they're gonna get an education

02:04:21.260 | about it is in my office.

02:04:22.380 | That's crazy.

02:04:23.220 | - When they get divorced.

02:04:24.060 | - That's crazy.

02:04:24.880 | - And so prenup is an opportunity

02:04:26.260 | to learn something about it at the start.

02:04:28.940 | - So first of all, whenever someone approaches me

02:04:32.060 | about prenups, and that's like four or five times a week,

02:04:35.080 | probably, depending on the season.

02:04:37.260 | Right before wedding season, we get a lot.

02:04:39.340 | - When's wedding season?

02:04:40.420 | - Well, it used to just be the summer.

02:04:42.340 | You know, they say when you marry in June,

02:04:44.100 | you're a bride all your life.

02:04:45.300 | That's from some Rodgers and Hammerstein musical.

02:04:48.460 | Now the fall is very big too.

02:04:49.940 | People love fall content, fall weddings,

02:04:52.140 | pretty pictures and things.

02:04:54.580 | - Content.

02:04:55.420 | - Yeah, fall content.

02:04:56.240 | - It's good on the 'gram.

02:04:57.080 | - Hashtag fall content.

02:04:57.920 | - All right, that's a hashtag.

02:04:58.740 | - Weddings is for the 'gram.

02:05:00.260 | I have to tell you, weddings is performative, man.

02:05:03.040 | See, the problem is though, it's curated.

02:05:05.220 | So here's us picking the cake.

02:05:06.940 | It's not here's us doing the prenup.

02:05:08.580 | You know how many people I've done prenups for

02:05:11.620 | that I've watched on their social media

02:05:13.380 | or them being interviewed by Andy Cohen on Bravo

02:05:16.860 | and saying, "Well, no, we don't have a prenup."

02:05:18.500 | Yeah, you do.

02:05:19.340 | You do, it's in my office, it's in a folder.

02:05:21.700 | - Yeah.

02:05:22.540 | - They have a prenup.

02:05:23.380 | - I didn't even know, that's beautiful.

02:05:24.200 | - But prenups are not published anyplace.

02:05:26.980 | They're not filed with a court.

02:05:28.300 | They're maintained by the two people that signed it

02:05:30.420 | and they're lawyers, that's it.

02:05:32.300 | So nobody has to admit that they have a prenup.

02:05:33.940 | - Beautiful.

02:05:34.780 | - But there's a, yes, but there's a certain problem

02:05:37.620 | with that in so far as a lot of people have prenups

02:05:41.540 | and we need to normalize prenups.

02:05:43.860 | Like there's no reason not to normalize prenups.

02:05:45.900 | There's no reason not for,

02:05:47.860 | until some famous people say, "Yeah, we have a prenup.

02:05:50.780 | "We're crazy about each other.

02:05:52.040 | "It's why we're getting married.

02:05:53.600 | "But yeah, look, we're getting,

02:05:55.540 | "I don't wanna get a car accident, but I got a seatbelt."

02:05:58.500 | Like you have it just in case.

02:06:01.180 | - And I mean, what do you do if you're running a company?

02:06:06.180 | Like what does that have to do with a prenup?

02:06:09.980 | You're running a hundred billion dollar

02:06:12.220 | or trillion dollar company, Jeff Bezos.

02:06:15.820 | I suppose his marriage was before Amazon.

02:06:18.420 | - Yeah, his was before it was anything.

02:06:20.260 | - But like, how does that work in a prenup?

02:06:22.860 | - Well, no, actually it's the same.

02:06:25.020 | I mean, what you're doing with a prenup

02:06:29.660 | is you're identifying how things

02:06:34.420 | will be classified in advance.

02:06:36.580 | So you're creating a set of rules

02:06:39.740 | and then you both can function under those rules

02:06:43.580 | during the marriage.

02:06:44.420 | So like I, for a brief time,

02:06:45.980 | I taught a family law drafting class at a law school.

02:06:50.300 | And when we would do separation agreements

02:06:52.380 | and we would do pleadings, it was lots of fun.

02:06:55.260 | When we would do prenups, I would say to the students,

02:06:57.420 | "What's the main thing you need when you're doing a prenup?"

02:07:00.760 | And they would say, "Well, you need asset disclosure."

02:07:03.060 | And I'd say, "Well, that's not the main thing."

02:07:04.340 | And they'd say, "Well, you need technical languages."

02:07:07.540 | I'd say, "Nope, main thing you need is a crystal ball.

02:07:10.740 | "And the main thing you need is the ability

02:07:12.300 | "to see what's gonna happen in the future.

02:07:13.920 | "Who's gonna have money, who's not,

02:07:15.260 | "who's gonna be successful, who isn't,

02:07:17.220 | "what people will inherit."

02:07:18.820 | Problem is we don't have that.

02:07:20.740 | We don't have that.

02:07:21.560 | So what can we do?

02:07:22.460 | We can create tranches, we can create structures,

02:07:25.180 | we can create systems.

02:07:27.060 | And then people can live with those in mind.

02:07:30.100 | You enter the game knowing the rules, right?

02:07:33.340 | So you know if this is gonna be a submission-only event.

02:07:37.560 | You know if this is gonna be no time limit.

02:07:39.260 | You know if we're after a certain number of minutes,

02:07:40.980 | we're going into points now, okay?

02:07:42.860 | So I can work with that rule set

02:07:44.740 | and I'm gonna amend my game based on that rule set.

02:07:48.100 | Same thing, same thing.

02:07:50.420 | You're just gonna say, "Look, what's the rule set?

02:07:52.700 | "Let's agree on the rule set.

02:07:54.460 | "And then let's conduct ourselves

02:07:57.240 | "with the rule set in mind.

02:07:58.720 | "Let's plan the rule set in mind."

02:08:01.540 | And I think that, you know, and by the way,

02:08:03.700 | and if you're gonna cheat,

02:08:04.540 | you cheat with the rule set in mind.

02:08:05.660 | You know you're cheating, right?

02:08:06.940 | You know you're trying to get around the rule set.

02:08:10.120 | So prenups are, when I do a consult for a prenup,

02:08:15.040 | the first thing I do is,

02:08:16.280 | "Here's what's gonna happen legally

02:08:18.160 | "if you marry without a prenup.

02:08:20.300 | "Here's what happens to your rights and obligations."

02:08:23.520 | Then what we can change with that, there's almost no limit.

02:08:28.400 | You can amend anything you want to.

02:08:31.160 | The example I always give is there was a case

02:08:33.120 | that went up to the appellate court

02:08:36.120 | where a high net worth guy married a very beautiful woman

02:08:39.880 | and there was a provision in the prenuptial agreement

02:08:41.840 | that said for every 10 pounds she gained during the marriage

02:08:45.080 | she would lose $10,000 a month in alimony if they divorced.

02:08:48.760 | And here's her baseline weight

02:08:53.600 | as of the time of execution of this agreement.

02:08:55.560 | And I wondered if she did like what a wrestler does.

02:08:58.400 | Like did she like, you know,

02:08:59.960 | did she like bulk up right before

02:09:01.880 | and then cut when she eventually got divorced?

02:09:04.080 | Like is she in there with sauna, you know, with the suit on?

02:09:07.080 | But, and the appellate court essentially said,

02:09:10.580 | "I don't know why you married this person

02:09:14.160 | "having had them make you sign this, but it's binding."

02:09:17.720 | Yeah. But it's binding.

02:09:18.760 | I wish somebody would do a contract like that.

02:09:20.320 | Like the rent for this place would be more expensive

02:09:23.400 | if I was fatter and cheaper if I was skinnier.

02:09:26.960 | And that way I would have to weigh in.

02:09:28.680 | Yeah, weigh in on it.

02:09:29.760 | Well, it would keep like some motivation on you.

02:09:31.760 | Yeah, exactly.

02:09:32.600 | That kind of prenup is motivating.

02:09:35.400 | Well, I think Tim Ferriss says that

02:09:37.760 | about how he does like,

02:09:39.220 | he said you should make bets with people.

02:09:42.280 | Like, it's like, if you gain this much,

02:09:43.920 | I got to give you this amount of money, you know?

02:09:46.000 | I think he says that in one of his early books.

02:09:47.760 | And try to make it binding somehow, which is tough.

02:09:50.600 | Yeah, I think when we create incentives of that kind,

02:09:54.320 | you know, that's why like there was like the no nut November,

02:09:57.760 | no shave November, you know, sober, like all this.

02:10:00.960 | It was a competition.

02:10:02.280 | When people make a competition of something,

02:10:04.080 | they gamify something.

02:10:05.440 | It makes it something that people

02:10:07.040 | are more likely to stick with.

02:10:08.200 | So, I mean, I guess a prenup be interesting.

02:10:12.000 | The problem is there's also,

02:10:14.280 | people put in prenups what's called fidelity clauses.

02:10:16.760 | Uh-oh.

02:10:17.720 | Yeah.

02:10:18.560 | Yeah, it was, yeah.

02:10:19.380 | Fidelity clauses, people still do these.

02:10:21.280 | I discourage people from doing them.

02:10:22.840 | The two things that people put in prenups

02:10:24.920 | that I discourage people from putting in prenups,

02:10:27.020 | but very often people still put in prenups,

02:10:29.000 | even with my caveat,

02:10:30.360 | is fidelity clauses and sunset clauses.

02:10:33.520 | So, fidelity clauses is,

02:10:35.400 | I'm waving alimony, I'm waving this, I'm waving that,

02:10:38.720 | but if you cheat, I get a million bucks

02:10:42.020 | or I get this much alimony or I get this amount.

02:10:45.180 | And I know the intention is to disincentivize

02:10:49.720 | the person from cheating.

02:10:50.920 | It's a deterrent to have them cheat.

02:10:54.000 | But all it really does is just creates like

02:10:56.280 | an interesting legal battle for lawyers.

02:10:58.600 | Like how did you prove that they cheated or not?

02:11:01.520 | Oh, right, 'cause what, yeah,

02:11:03.400 | what constitutes cheating also.

02:11:04.960 | Right, right.

02:11:05.840 | Is it an emotional affair, an affair?

02:11:07.440 | Is oral sex cheating?

02:11:09.040 | Is, you know, like what is,

02:11:11.640 | and by the way, how do you prove it?

02:11:13.800 | Like, well, I was in a hotel with her,

02:11:15.360 | but how do you prove that I had sex with her?

02:11:16.960 | You know, like, and it's very, very,

02:11:20.680 | you're opening a can of worms with that kind of a thing,

02:11:23.500 | but people sometimes still put them in.

02:11:25.440 | And sunset clauses.

02:11:27.760 | Sunset clauses is if we're married X period of time,

02:11:30.720 | this goes away, is if it never existed.

02:11:33.120 | And why is that a bad idea?

02:11:34.680 | The same reason the community property law

02:11:37.040 | in California is a bad idea.

02:11:38.680 | So the community property law is,

02:11:40.520 | after a certain number of years, I think it's seven,

02:11:43.340 | everything, including your premarital property,

02:11:46.560 | all becomes marital property.

02:11:48.020 | And the idea of that was supposed to be

02:11:51.140 | that if you've been married that number of years,

02:11:53.920 | like you're in enough of a serious relationship now

02:11:57.460 | that everything is one unit, you're one person.

02:12:01.640 | What it actually does is creates

02:12:03.480 | a very uncomfortable thought experiment

02:12:06.160 | that people have to have at the six year mark.

02:12:08.460 | Because you have to, now the honeymoon's kind of over,

02:12:12.760 | you might have a kid or two, and you go,

02:12:15.760 | okay, wait a minute, am I so happy in this relationship

02:12:20.760 | that I'm willing to take all of my premarital assets

02:12:24.320 | and throw them in the pot right now?

02:12:25.560 | 'Cause if not, I got six months to get divorced.

02:12:27.920 | Yeah.

02:12:28.760 | Like, and that's not, so like if you say to someone,

02:12:31.720 | like if you got married tomorrow,

02:12:34.360 | and then you found a company that's worth $100 million,

02:12:37.600 | and under your prenup, that's your separate property,

02:12:43.880 | but there's a sunset clause that says

02:12:47.840 | that your prenup goes out the window in 15 years.

02:12:50.480 | Man, at year 14 in six months,

02:12:53.240 | you gotta ask yourself some serious questions

02:12:55.060 | about where's this relationship gonna be in five, 10 years.

02:12:57.400 | - That's brilliant.

02:12:58.240 | And that's why, kids, you pay for a lawyer.

02:13:00.840 | - That's it.

02:13:01.760 | We get paid to see around corners, you know?

02:13:03.720 | I get paid to be paranoid.

02:13:04.800 | I tell people that all the time.

02:13:06.200 | - Okay, so you just mentioned infidelity.

02:13:08.200 | You write in the book, which everybody should get.

02:13:10.440 | It's a great book, it's a great read.

02:13:11.880 | It's a window into your soul.

02:13:13.920 | You, in this book, write that there's

02:13:16.200 | five kinds of infidelity.

02:13:18.000 | Do you remember, can you explain?

02:13:19.640 | - Yeah, I mean, what I wanted to say

02:13:21.840 | is that all infidelity's not the same,

02:13:23.800 | that there's different kinds.

02:13:25.460 | And some of them are more obvious than others.

02:13:28.220 | Like, there's the soulmate, you know?

02:13:33.220 | That's the one I think I see most often,

02:13:36.540 | which is a person meets another person

02:13:38.700 | or rekindles on social media or elsewhere

02:13:42.940 | a reconnection with another person in their life,

02:13:46.300 | and they go, oh my God, this is the person

02:13:49.300 | I'm supposed to be with.

02:13:50.620 | I'm in love.

02:13:51.540 | The heart wants what the heart wants.

02:13:53.180 | Like, I'm leaving you for this person

02:13:55.480 | 'cause I have found my true love.

02:13:57.340 | That's one type, and it's an incredibly common type.

02:14:00.100 | And there's, you know, there are plenty

02:14:03.700 | of cautionary tales associated with that,

02:14:06.140 | where people thought that they found their someone,

02:14:08.760 | and then it turns out it was, you know,

02:14:11.100 | no, it was just unfair, you know?

02:14:13.660 | And, you know, a man who leaves his wife

02:14:16.260 | for his mistress just leaves a new job opportunity open.

02:14:20.060 | - And we should also mention that you, you know,

02:14:22.300 | talk about Facebook and Instagram.

02:14:24.260 | - Oh, yes.

02:14:25.100 | If we were going to invent an infidelity-generating machine,

02:14:28.100 | it would be called Facebook, which, by the way,

02:14:30.300 | is a function of the fact the book was written in 2019.

02:14:32.840 | I would now change it to Instagram.

02:14:34.620 | - Oh, 'cause you said just Facebook.

02:14:36.060 | - Yes, but now, if I had to rewrite it,

02:14:37.860 | it would be if we were gonna invent

02:14:38.940 | an infidelity-generating machine, it would be called Meta.

02:14:41.500 | That would be what I would have.

02:14:42.340 | - Yeah, there you go.

02:14:43.180 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:14:44.000 | - Very tech forward.

02:14:45.140 | - It was a function of what Facebook

02:14:48.180 | and I think Instagram also are,

02:14:50.200 | which is it is a communication tool

02:14:53.060 | that has people looking into windows

02:14:55.480 | that I think are antagonistic to marriage.

02:14:58.160 | You're looking into the lives of other people.

02:15:00.720 | You're looking into the social lives

02:15:05.120 | of people that you meet casually.

02:15:07.380 | So there was a time where you would be

02:15:09.220 | at your son's soccer practice

02:15:11.300 | and see the attractive mom across the way,

02:15:14.480 | and you wouldn't really talk to her or interact with her.

02:15:17.020 | If you did, it would just be at practice.

02:15:20.020 | But now, we add on social media those people

02:15:23.860 | because for legitimate reasons.

02:15:25.260 | We need to maybe communicate about when practice is

02:15:27.460 | or we wanna message the person.

02:15:29.340 | But now it's sort of an invitation to a connection.

02:15:32.540 | And then it's, you know,

02:15:34.140 | there's a picture of her on vacation in a bikini.

02:15:36.540 | That's very intriguing.

02:15:37.620 | And then you have a benign,

02:15:39.500 | oh, I saw you guys went on vacation.

02:15:40.700 | Where did you stay?

02:15:41.740 | You know, oh, was it good?

02:15:42.780 | Did you like that?

02:15:43.620 | Oh, that's nice.

02:15:44.440 | And now we're talking and now we're having an interaction.

02:15:46.540 | And now this is how the spark of affairs begins.

02:15:50.980 | It's usually, people don't usually meet and go,

02:15:52.740 | would you like to potentially wreck your marriage?

02:15:54.900 | Yes, would you?

02:15:55.740 | Oh my God, let's do this.

02:15:57.060 | Like it's much more, you know, it's slowly happens.

02:15:59.540 | So when I talk about types of infidelity,

02:16:02.400 | the soulmate, the unexpected soulmate, you know,

02:16:05.940 | this connection that you didn't expect.

02:16:08.620 | I didn't expect to fall in love with this person,

02:16:10.940 | but I did and the heart wants what the heart wants

02:16:12.820 | and I'm sorry.

02:16:13.660 | That one's tough.

02:16:16.180 | That one's tough because, you know,

02:16:18.940 | it's an interesting distinction between men and women

02:16:22.140 | to some degree that when a man finds out

02:16:26.800 | his wife was cheating, the question is, did you fuck him?

02:16:30.060 | And when a woman finds out that a man cheated,

02:16:33.300 | the question is, do you love her?

02:16:34.940 | You know, and those are different things, you know.

02:16:39.940 | I feel like there could be many

02:16:41.220 | and have been many books written on that.

02:16:43.140 | Yeah, there have been by much smarter people than me.

02:16:45.620 | Yeah.

02:16:46.460 | But I think that the soulmate thing

02:16:51.460 | is very, very painful for a lot of my female clients.

02:16:57.860 | When a man says, listen, I found the one,

02:17:00.460 | I found the one and it's not you.

02:17:02.180 | That is really, really hard to get past.

02:17:06.500 | Even when it turned out to be true.

02:17:11.740 | I mean, I've seen some people that, you know,

02:17:14.420 | it was an affair that turned into 20 plus year marriages.

02:17:18.580 | You know, so an unhappy marriage and then a happy affair

02:17:23.460 | that turned into a very happy marriage.

02:17:25.260 | Like I've not seen, there's not a formula, you know.

02:17:27.900 | Like I've been doing it long enough now

02:17:30.300 | that I've seen permutations I never would have expected.

02:17:34.400 | So that's one type of infidelity.

02:17:37.380 | The other is what I call the push out of the closet,

02:17:39.900 | which is, and that I think happened more often

02:17:42.740 | earlier in my career.

02:17:43.940 | There have been tremendous strides, I think,

02:17:45.580 | in the lesbian and gay community,

02:17:48.740 | where, including marriage equality, obviously,

02:17:52.300 | where there's a lot of change as to people accepting people

02:17:56.360 | as being gay or lesbian.

02:17:57.660 | And I think that there was a time where, you know,

02:18:03.220 | people were having, being in the closet

02:18:05.900 | was much more important.

02:18:06.860 | You were subject to professional scorn

02:18:09.140 | and, you know, all kinds of things

02:18:10.500 | if you were gay or lesbian.

02:18:11.980 | So people were sneaking around and having affairs

02:18:15.940 | with their same-sex partners, and then they get caught.

02:18:18.860 | And then, you know, it really was a function

02:18:20.980 | of the fact that they were closeted.

02:18:24.540 | And again, that's another kind of complicated dynamic

02:18:27.780 | because, you know, I haven't had that happen to me,

02:18:32.420 | where a woman left me for a woman,

02:18:34.160 | but I'd like to think it would be easier for me.

02:18:40.060 | Because if you left me for a man,

02:18:43.660 | you're saying I want one like you, but better than you.

02:18:46.700 | Whereas if you leave me for a woman,

02:18:50.620 | well, that's a whole different set of equipment.

02:18:52.900 | I don't have that.

02:18:54.100 | So like, I can't, like, okay.

02:18:56.540 | Like, it's not me, it's you.

02:18:58.020 | It's something you want that I can't offer.

02:19:00.220 | We don't serve that at this restaurant,

02:19:01.740 | so, you know, it's okay.

02:19:03.300 | Like, I get it.

02:19:04.980 | I mean, there's a betrayal, there's a sadness, whatever,

02:19:06.980 | but, you know, it's a different thing.

02:19:10.620 | The saddest type of infidelity, in my opinion,

02:19:15.620 | is the mistake, which is someone just makes a mistake.

02:19:18.820 | People do dumb shit when it comes to sex.

02:19:22.860 | Like, people just, in a moment, you know,

02:19:26.900 | they follow temptation, their impulse control is poor,

02:19:31.900 | you know, and they do something

02:19:34.900 | that doesn't reflect their morality

02:19:38.220 | or doesn't reflect the depth of their feelings.

02:19:40.940 | Like, if you spend enough time in a room

02:19:42.580 | with people who've cheated in a relationship

02:19:45.900 | and are speaking candidly to you about it

02:19:47.460 | 'cause you're their lawyer,

02:19:48.860 | they'll say to you very openly,

02:19:52.180 | like, no, I really love my wife.

02:19:54.460 | I really love my wife.

02:19:55.620 | Like, I just, I don't know, I was just an idiot.

02:19:57.500 | Like, I just, you know, I saw this bright, shiny object

02:20:00.420 | and I went for it.

02:20:01.260 | I really wanted to sleep with that woman.

02:20:03.100 | Like, I wanted to fuck her.

02:20:05.940 | I love my wife.

02:20:06.900 | I make love to my wife.

02:20:08.220 | I love my wife, but I just wanna sleep with this one.

02:20:10.980 | You know, and we created a culture

02:20:13.860 | where one of those eradicates the other.

02:20:17.140 | That's a whole 'nother discussion,

02:20:20.420 | is, you know, or is there ethical non-monogamy?

02:20:22.900 | Like, should we, is marriage about who I have sex with

02:20:27.900 | or is marriage a different kind of a partnership?

02:20:32.300 | Is it a pair bond that's about building a life together?

02:20:37.580 | You know, and where does monogamy fit into that?

02:20:39.620 | And people like Esther Perel,

02:20:41.140 | and those are people who are making

02:20:43.420 | very intelligent discussions about that, you know.

02:20:48.100 | - Yeah, that's a complicated one.

02:20:49.060 | Just to actually just linger on that,

02:20:50.780 | a view, how often have people with open marriages

02:20:55.660 | have been in your office?

02:20:57.020 | - Well, let's see, and this is one of those, like,

02:21:00.100 | from a research perspective, this would be flawed.

02:21:03.060 | Because I see the, they're in my office

02:21:06.260 | 'cause their marriage is falling apart.

02:21:08.220 | So there may be lots of people having open relationships

02:21:13.220 | that don't end up in a divorce lawyer's office,

02:21:15.340 | so I'd never meet them.

02:21:16.700 | But I meet a lot of people that that was the Hail Mary pass.

02:21:21.700 | - Sure.

02:21:22.540 | - Like, I meet a lot of people that they tried that,

02:21:24.820 | but in retrospect, it was a Hail Mary pass.

02:21:27.940 | It was like, look, we've just figured, let's try this.

02:21:30.620 | You know, like, maybe this'll keep the glue together

02:21:34.140 | on this thing, you know.

02:21:35.380 | And I've also seen open relationships go wrong,

02:21:40.380 | you know, where we agree we're just gonna have

02:21:44.460 | sexual connections with other people,

02:21:46.620 | or we're gonna bring other people into the bedroom.

02:21:49.900 | But together, like, we're gonna be together

02:21:51.900 | with other people or with another person.

02:21:54.540 | And then that connection of those two people,

02:21:59.020 | like, you think it's a soulmate all of a sudden now,

02:22:02.580 | and it goes in this other,

02:22:03.420 | because, and again, is that novelty?

02:22:05.580 | Is that, like, it's the reason why I don't understand

02:22:07.780 | why people have threesomes.

02:22:09.020 | It's kind of like, you know, when someone sings to you,

02:22:12.220 | I don't know where to look.

02:22:14.140 | Like, I don't know where to look.

02:22:15.020 | Like, if someone's singing to me,

02:22:16.260 | I don't know where to look.

02:22:17.140 | Like, it feels weird, right?

02:22:18.820 | Like, this is a conundrum I have.

02:22:20.940 | No, this.

02:22:21.780 | I'll say this to you, this'll never,

02:22:25.140 | but it's the reason I can't go to strip clubs.

02:22:27.460 | - Yeah.

02:22:28.300 | - I don't know where to look.

02:22:30.140 | Like, if I go to a strip club, you know,

02:22:31.660 | like, you go to a strip club and there's, you know,

02:22:33.780 | the part where the woman's on the stage

02:22:36.060 | and she walks past each person,

02:22:37.620 | just does a little thing, and then next person,

02:22:39.140 | and then this little thing.

02:22:40.700 | So when she's right in front of you,

02:22:42.540 | I like a woman's face and I like a woman's body.

02:22:46.540 | I like both of them.

02:22:47.820 | So I'm looking at the woman's face,

02:22:49.380 | and she's very beautiful, but she's naked.

02:22:51.540 | And I think, oh, she's naked.

02:22:52.940 | I should be looking at her naked body,

02:22:54.340 | because obviously that's like, it's almost rude not to,

02:22:56.860 | because she's naked in front of me, of course.

02:22:59.140 | So then I'm looking at her naked body,

02:23:00.700 | which is lovely to look at.

02:23:02.300 | But then I find myself going, oh my God, you're just,

02:23:05.100 | you should look at her face, for God's sake.

02:23:06.620 | And then I look at her face and find myself

02:23:08.700 | having this whole thing in my head,

02:23:11.060 | where I'm going like, oh my God,

02:23:11.900 | where am I supposed to look?

02:23:13.380 | So I think a threesome with two women

02:23:17.580 | you don't hardly know or you're not, that's different.

02:23:21.020 | But a threesome with a long-term partner

02:23:25.380 | who you're in a relationship with,

02:23:27.380 | and a new person, seems to me a very dangerous ground.

02:23:32.380 | Because you're gonna want to enjoy the novelty

02:23:35.500 | of this new person, but you're gonna have to spend time

02:23:39.580 | with this person after.

02:23:41.820 | So how much attention do you spend

02:23:44.620 | to the new novel, exciting thing,

02:23:46.860 | without creating the impression that you don't,

02:23:49.860 | you're not interested in this?

02:23:51.100 | 'Cause you want, you're my favorite person,

02:23:53.460 | but this is fun, so I wanna just try this for a few.

02:23:55.860 | But then also, I don't wanna forget about that,

02:23:57.900 | like it just seems tricky.

02:23:59.660 | - That analogy, by the way, is brilliant.

02:24:01.420 | And also, I guess it's tricky

02:24:03.020 | because the consequences of mistakes are quite high,

02:24:06.060 | 'cause you're gonna have to talk about it.

02:24:08.660 | - Right, and there's an easy way

02:24:10.300 | to misinterpret the data, right?

02:24:12.180 | Like so if I really like sleeping with my partner,

02:24:16.940 | but I get one chance to sleep with this other person,

02:24:20.660 | like, well, of course I should indulge in that,

02:24:22.780 | because I can do this anytime.

02:24:25.500 | But this person, my partner, might interpret that as,

02:24:30.140 | oh, so you're more interested in her than me,

02:24:32.500 | because that voice in my partner

02:24:34.300 | that would be insecure might hear that.

02:24:37.580 | So I just, why would you even,

02:24:39.220 | why would you open yourself up to that level of chaos?

02:24:42.980 | - You seem to love chess in the courtroom.

02:24:44.580 | So it's a kind of intimate human chess of sorts.

02:24:48.020 | - Yeah, no, that's too high risk.

02:24:50.180 | - How do we get on threesomes?

02:24:51.260 | Oh, open marriages.

02:24:53.140 | - Well, we gotta, how do we get on threesomes?

02:24:54.820 | I don't know, I always wonder

02:24:55.660 | how people get on threesomes.

02:24:57.620 | I think if one is fun, two must be better.

02:25:00.180 | If two is better, three must be better.

02:25:02.180 | Yeah, I think the way that this becomes an issue

02:25:07.180 | is why would you have a non-monogamous relationship?

02:25:12.100 | What is it about your sex life

02:25:15.420 | with this person that's not satisfying?

02:25:17.660 | And I think that that is the question

02:25:19.780 | that's harder to ask yourself

02:25:21.100 | and to try to answer with your partner.

02:25:23.020 | - I mean, you've said that this idea of soulmates

02:25:25.940 | is great for your business,

02:25:29.300 | but so like a human being in a partnership

02:25:34.300 | can't be everything.

02:25:35.980 | Is that true?

02:25:37.060 | - I think it's unrealistic.

02:25:38.340 | - True romance, right?

02:25:40.460 | The document that we keep referencing here.

02:25:44.980 | - I think it's wonderful that we do,

02:25:45.940 | 'cause sometimes now people don't get that reference anymore.

02:25:49.620 | Like I talk to people,

02:25:51.020 | when I try to teach negotiation to young lawyers

02:25:53.660 | who come work for me,

02:25:55.500 | I tell them to watch the Gary Oldman scene

02:25:59.380 | where he offers them the Chinese food.

02:26:01.820 | - Yeah, why is that scene the one that really?

02:26:04.500 | - Because it's the best negotiating lesson

02:26:07.340 | I've ever heard in my life.

02:26:08.820 | Where he comes in and he--

02:26:10.860 | - Oh, so just for the record.

02:26:12.220 | - Yeah, Gary Oldman plays a pimp.

02:26:14.300 | And he owns, his girl is Patricia Arquette, right?

02:26:18.780 | And Christian Slater's character, the protagonist,

02:26:22.060 | is coming in to tell Gary Oldman

02:26:25.060 | that he no longer owns this girl, Alabama is her name.

02:26:29.620 | Alabama is gonna be with him now.

02:26:32.460 | And Gary Oldman is a amazing performance.

02:26:37.860 | And he's sitting in a living room

02:26:40.420 | with a shotgun next to him,

02:26:42.260 | with armed guys around him,

02:26:44.540 | watching television and eating Chinese food.

02:26:48.300 | And he's got Chinese food laid out in front of him.

02:26:50.620 | And Christian Slater comes in and he says,

02:26:52.340 | "I need to talk to you about Alabama."

02:26:56.140 | And Gary Oldman says, "Do you want some Chinese food?"

02:26:59.100 | And Christian Slater's sort of taken aback by the question.

02:27:01.820 | He says, "No, I came to talk about Alabama.

02:27:04.780 | "She's with me now."

02:27:05.900 | She's there and he proceeds to tell him

02:27:07.420 | what his offer essentially is.

02:27:09.420 | And Gary Oldman says, "You know you fucked up, right?"

02:27:13.060 | In some and substance he says,

02:27:14.620 | "You know, if you'd sat down

02:27:17.500 | "and started eating my Chinese food,

02:27:20.220 | "I would have thought, who's this guy?

02:27:23.380 | "He didn't have a care in the world,

02:27:24.740 | "just sitting down eating my egg foo young.

02:27:26.980 | "But instead you tried to be hard

02:27:29.180 | "and now I know you're full of shit."

02:27:31.180 | And so I think that scene summarizes how in negotiation,

02:27:36.180 | the more you enter into it with that,

02:27:40.260 | like anytime I deal with another lawyer

02:27:42.340 | and they're like, "Well, we'll see you in court."

02:27:44.300 | Okay, see you in court.

02:27:46.540 | Like empty barrels make the most noise.

02:27:48.340 | Like you and I as people who've been

02:27:49.820 | in the jujitsu community, I know some dangerous people.

02:27:53.700 | I know FBI SWAT people.

02:27:55.780 | I know people that are,

02:27:58.220 | they know how to do things to people.

02:28:00.460 | And they're the calmest guys you ever meet in your life.

02:28:04.220 | You scuff their sneaker, they,

02:28:06.220 | "Oh, yeah, don't worry about it, man, it's okay."

02:28:07.780 | Like they're quick to apology.

02:28:09.660 | Like they're just chill.

02:28:10.860 | - What were we talking about?

02:28:13.620 | - We were talking about--

02:28:15.540 | - Oh, wait, true romance.

02:28:18.100 | Oh, the soulmate.

02:28:19.100 | - Yeah, soulmate.

02:28:19.940 | Yeah, well, you're saying that this idea,

02:28:21.220 | like with that film underlying,

02:28:22.980 | there's this current of like they were made for each other.

02:28:25.100 | - Yeah.

02:28:26.620 | - I think there's a distinction between the feeling

02:28:30.740 | that someone is your missing puzzle piece,

02:28:32.820 | that you're made for this person.

02:28:34.500 | I think what that just means is there's a lot

02:28:36.420 | of overlapping beautiful connections.

02:28:39.740 | I love them intellectually, I love them sexually,

02:28:43.220 | I love them interpersonally.

02:28:45.260 | We have some shared history,

02:28:47.900 | we have some shared commonalities.

02:28:50.140 | We were raised in the same culture,

02:28:51.500 | raised in the same religion.

02:28:53.020 | Like we view, we have politically similar ideas.

02:28:55.900 | Like these are all, or we have totally opposite ones,

02:28:58.980 | but they're complementary.

02:29:00.300 | Like I've always joked that like finding someone

02:29:01.780 | with complementary pathologies,

02:29:03.500 | like I'm obsessively disciplined.

02:29:07.060 | So having a partner who's like flexible

02:29:09.740 | and like spontaneous is really good for me.

02:29:12.740 | And also me being like, no, no, no, come on, come back,

02:29:16.300 | we're gonna do this now.

02:29:17.340 | No, no, it's time to actually do this now.

02:29:19.460 | Like we're good for each other, it's barefoot in the park.

02:29:21.500 | You know, it's this idea of like, you know,

02:29:23.060 | the yin and the yang.

02:29:24.260 | So what I have an issue with is that the definition

02:29:28.900 | of soulmate that I think is sold to so many people now

02:29:32.940 | is this idea that if your partner is disappointing to you

02:29:37.660 | in any way, meaning they're not the perfect

02:29:40.100 | travel companion, they're not the perfect

02:29:42.140 | vocabulary companion, they're not the perfect roommate,

02:29:45.780 | they're not the perfect lover, they're not the,

02:29:47.620 | like the odds of someone being all of those

02:29:51.020 | seems crazy to me.

02:29:52.580 | Like it's infinitesimally small

02:29:54.780 | and they don't have to be everything.

02:29:57.580 | Like if I go to a restaurant and eat 10 courses

02:30:02.460 | and one of them is kind of subpar

02:30:05.420 | and the other nine are the most amazing

02:30:07.820 | culinary experience I've ever had,

02:30:10.420 | how dare I say, well, that wasn't the right restaurant.

02:30:13.580 | Like, what do you mean?

02:30:14.660 | Like, that's a great restaurant.

02:30:16.180 | What are you talking about?

02:30:17.140 | Like, of course there was one little thing.

02:30:18.740 | So I think it's impossible

02:30:21.500 | to have someone never disappoint you.

02:30:24.620 | It's impossible to have someone who never lets you down

02:30:27.900 | or doesn't say and do the exact right thing

02:30:29.940 | at the exact right time.

02:30:30.980 | And to create the idea or expectation in anyone

02:30:34.580 | that your partner should never let you down,

02:30:36.820 | never disappoint you, never not know what to say

02:30:41.140 | is I think crazy.

02:30:42.220 | I mean, I find for myself,

02:30:44.900 | when someone for example, loses someone,

02:30:46.780 | when someone loses a family member or a pet,

02:30:49.580 | I often say the same thing to the person.

02:30:53.740 | I'll either talk to them or send them a text or call them

02:30:56.140 | and I'll say, I wish I knew the perfect thing to say

02:31:00.860 | because I would say it right now.

02:31:02.620 | Like, but I know there isn't.

02:31:05.580 | Like, I know that, you know, I don't say that part,

02:31:07.420 | but like, I know there isn't.

02:31:08.500 | Like, there isn't a perfect thing to say.

02:31:10.820 | Like, but if there was a perfect thing to say,

02:31:12.540 | I would say it right now.

02:31:13.860 | Like, love to me is not that you never let this person down,

02:31:16.740 | it's that you never wanna let this person down.

02:31:19.180 | You know, it's love is a verb.

02:31:21.100 | You know, like it's this feeling of,

02:31:22.660 | I never want to disappoint you.

02:31:25.220 | I will disappoint you,

02:31:27.540 | but I never want to disappoint you.

02:31:29.420 | I will hurt you, but I never want to hurt you.

02:31:33.660 | When I hurt you, it will be my insecurity, my stupidity,

02:31:37.220 | my humanity that causes me to hurt you,

02:31:40.380 | but I will never intentionally hurt you.

02:31:43.260 | You know, I will betray your trust.

02:31:45.140 | I'll never intentionally betray your trust.

02:31:47.500 | Like, I will, by my stupidity, say the wrong thing

02:31:51.020 | or loose lip say something to someone

02:31:53.580 | that you didn't want me to, but it won't be intentional.

02:31:55.300 | I will always try to be on your team.

02:31:58.500 | That feels to me like a realistic thing.

02:32:00.740 | - Yeah, the intention leads the way,

02:32:02.260 | but there's some aspect of, like, you know,

02:32:06.020 | just like the 10-course meal, that over time,

02:32:08.980 | there's a kind of convergence towards perfection.

02:32:13.140 | And along the way, there's the rose-colored glasses

02:32:15.700 | where you see the beauty and everything.

02:32:17.580 | So it just, it feels,

02:32:20.460 | it's probably destructive just to really internalize

02:32:26.860 | the idea of soulmate because then any imperfections

02:32:30.300 | can make you doubt, can make you step away,

02:32:33.500 | can make you lose the connection.

02:32:34.740 | But it just feels like, I don't know.

02:32:37.620 | - It's too heavy.

02:32:39.060 | It just feels, I feel like when you see a couple

02:32:43.700 | that's 90 years old and they've been together

02:32:46.940 | for 60 years, 70 years, there is, of course,

02:32:51.420 | a temptation to think about all the beauty

02:32:55.100 | that they've seen on that journey together.

02:32:56.840 | The children, the grandchildren,

02:32:58.500 | maybe the great-grandchildren,

02:33:00.460 | all the joy that they've seen,

02:33:02.220 | all the pain they've endured and struggled together.

02:33:05.360 | But they've also disappointed each other

02:33:09.660 | a whole bunch of times, probably let each other down,

02:33:12.540 | they probably lied to each other a bunch.

02:33:14.740 | And to me, that is a beautiful thing.

02:33:18.380 | It's great in spite of that.

02:33:22.380 | It's great because of that.

02:33:23.940 | They still love each other even though

02:33:26.720 | they've been so flawed and imperfect.

02:33:29.200 | And they're human and they still love each other.

02:33:32.000 | They still rode that thing together

02:33:33.900 | because the reasons to do so

02:33:35.960 | were greater than the reasons to not.

02:33:38.000 | - We've mentioned some of this,

02:33:39.880 | but I'd love to get your opinion

02:33:41.880 | on having seen things gone wrong.

02:33:44.920 | How much, and having mentioned Amber Heard and Johnny Depp,

02:33:48.520 | how much fighting do you think is okay in a relationship?

02:33:54.500 | And how to resolve the fights

02:33:57.100 | such that they don't escalate to that disconnection?

02:34:01.380 | Is there some wisdom you have for that?

02:34:03.420 | I imagine you've seen some epic fights.

02:34:05.500 | - Yeah, I've seen some crazy fights.

02:34:08.500 | I have, even on my phone, I have some recordings.

02:34:13.220 | 'Cause now there's cameras everywhere.

02:34:14.980 | It's like Nest cams and Ring cams.

02:34:19.180 | So a lot of this gets recorded.

02:34:21.740 | And people have phones so readily available

02:34:25.340 | that they can record the other person and know it.

02:34:27.500 | And I listen to the way people speak to their,

02:34:30.620 | first of all, I listen to the way people speak

02:34:31.780 | to each other and I'm shocked.

02:34:33.020 | I listen to the way people speak

02:34:33.980 | to their romantic partner, to their spouse,

02:34:35.820 | and I'm blown away.

02:34:38.100 | I'm blown away.

02:34:38.940 | - Disrespect or what?

02:34:39.760 | - Just disrespect, insults, profanity,

02:34:43.900 | just degradation, just brutality.

02:34:47.820 | And then to then kind of go on the next day,

02:34:51.900 | you kind of go on like nothing happened.

02:34:54.460 | I'm shocked by it.

02:34:55.660 | I mean, I listen to it and I think,

02:34:57.660 | if someone ever spoke to me that way,

02:34:59.460 | I don't know that I could ever really feel

02:35:02.740 | deep connection to them freely.

02:35:06.300 | I would feel so betrayed, that they just so brutal.

02:35:10.300 | I can't imagine speaking to someone that way,

02:35:13.860 | like say, you just, such vicious insults to someone.

02:35:18.140 | But I understand that's how some people communicate perhaps.

02:35:22.700 | I guess the question of how much fighting

02:35:26.820 | is too much fighting in the relationship

02:35:30.540 | is for me a bit like the question,

02:35:32.420 | how much sex is enough sex in the relationship?

02:35:36.180 | It depends on the two people and their individual tastes.

02:35:41.980 | But what's problematic is when there is a disconnect

02:35:46.980 | between the two people.

02:35:49.740 | I think it's Annie Hall.

02:35:56.380 | It's one of the Woody Allen films,

02:35:58.100 | where Diane Keaton and Woody Allen

02:36:03.000 | are both talking to their respective therapists

02:36:05.040 | about the relationship, but it's like a split screen.

02:36:09.500 | And she says, "I mean, we have sex all the time.

02:36:12.580 | "We have sex like once a week."

02:36:14.700 | And he goes, "We never have sex.

02:36:16.200 | "We have sex like once a week."

02:36:18.060 | And it's funny because it's true.

02:36:21.580 | It really is this, they both know the same data,

02:36:26.100 | but they're interpreting that data set

02:36:27.760 | completely differently.

02:36:28.680 | And I think the question you have to start asking is,

02:36:33.680 | Steve Harvey actually once said something funny to me.

02:36:36.300 | He said that success is not where you are.

02:36:39.100 | Success is where you are in relation to where you started.

02:36:41.980 | He says, "'Cause if success is where you are,

02:36:44.860 | "Oprah's got us all beat."

02:36:46.580 | Or maybe Ilan's got us all beat, I don't know.

02:36:49.000 | But if it's where you are versus where you started,

02:36:52.300 | 'cause there's a lot of people that started on second

02:36:54.260 | and started on third act like they hit a double.

02:36:56.660 | Well, I was given 10 million,

02:36:58.900 | but then I turned it into 100 million.

02:37:00.540 | Well, the first million is the hardest, so come on.

02:37:04.340 | But I think the question of how much sex were we having

02:37:09.100 | at the beginning of the relationship,

02:37:10.540 | that might be the wrong gauge,

02:37:11.940 | 'cause that's like we couldn't keep our hands off each other

02:37:13.720 | and we just, it's novelty.

02:37:15.600 | But how much sex we're having post-children

02:37:19.660 | versus before the children, that might be worth looking at.

02:37:22.980 | How do we compare it?

02:37:24.060 | Am I overweight compared to what?

02:37:27.140 | When I was 20 and running marathons?

02:37:30.060 | Or most 50-year-old men?

02:37:31.980 | I don't know, I gotta, what do you compare it to?

02:37:35.240 | So I think fighting, there are some people

02:37:37.820 | that I think they enjoy fighting.

02:37:41.140 | Like they enjoy argument.

02:37:42.920 | I know people that enjoy political debate.

02:37:45.800 | I don't particularly enjoy political debate.

02:37:48.020 | Not that I'm not very interested in political concepts,

02:37:51.640 | economic concepts, I just, I argue for a living.

02:37:55.220 | So in my free time, I don't find argument that enjoyable.

02:38:00.220 | When it's intense, I find discussion more interesting.

02:38:04.500 | - That's so interesting.

02:38:05.860 | You just keep the battle to that particular,

02:38:09.540 | to your main profession.

02:38:11.020 | And everyone else, they want peace.

02:38:12.620 | - Well, did you ever, Bob Goldthwait,

02:38:14.540 | Bobcat Goldthwait, the comedian, very, very funny.

02:38:17.060 | And he had a whole second chapter

02:38:18.180 | as like a director and a writer.

02:38:19.980 | But he has this, I saw an interview with him once

02:38:23.060 | where he said, "Yeah," he says, "I'm a comedian.

02:38:25.020 | "I've been a comedian a long time.

02:38:25.980 | "People always come up to me and they're like,

02:38:27.000 | "'Oh, you're a comedian, do you wanna hear a joke?'"

02:38:29.300 | He's like, "And all I can think is,

02:38:30.140 | "'Oh yeah, that'd be a real fucking treat.'"

02:38:32.140 | Like I haven't heard jokes all day, all night,

02:38:35.260 | for years, that would be a real special occasion, yes.

02:38:38.140 | Like I get it, you know?

02:38:39.820 | - Yeah, and I mean, a sadder story,

02:38:42.900 | I've been reading quite a bit about Robin Williams

02:38:45.220 | and his wife would talk about how quiet

02:38:47.500 | and introspective and thoughtful and intellectual he was

02:38:51.060 | and not really that humorous in his private life.

02:38:53.980 | - But that may be a function of,

02:38:56.280 | you know, that it is enjoyable to be the other thing.

02:39:02.180 | One of the things I've always thought was very funny

02:39:05.220 | in relationships, my own relationships,

02:39:09.540 | is most women I know who have a husband

02:39:14.100 | who doesn't wear a suit every day for a living.

02:39:17.640 | When their husband gets dressed up,

02:39:20.940 | like they're going to a wedding or something,

02:39:22.940 | they get like, "Oh my God, look at him," you know?

02:39:25.780 | And I wear a suit every day, you know?

02:39:30.260 | On the weekends I don't, I wear like jeans

02:39:31.780 | and a black t-shirt, but the rest of the time I wear a suit.

02:39:33.980 | And I remember, I think this has been true

02:39:36.820 | in every relationship I've been in since I was a lawyer,

02:39:39.940 | including my ex-wife, it was always like,

02:39:42.420 | if I had on jeans and I wasn't shaven,

02:39:45.260 | it was like, "Look at you."

02:39:46.420 | You know, it's like, "Are you kidding me?"

02:39:49.460 | Like, "Really?"

02:39:51.780 | Like, whereas the suit, they wouldn't even notice.

02:39:53.940 | Wouldn't even notice the suit.

02:39:55.180 | - Sometimes the other thing.

02:39:56.660 | - Well, that's what it is.

02:39:57.500 | It's the novelty of the other thing.

02:39:58.980 | So I think that if you're Robin Williams

02:40:00.660 | and you're like being shot out of a cannon

02:40:02.460 | in terms of your performative style

02:40:04.020 | and your energy and explosive,

02:40:05.580 | yeah, being quiet must be very refreshing.

02:40:08.020 | Like I imagine, you know, incredibly intelligent people

02:40:11.540 | must love just watching stupid humor or having a dumb,

02:40:15.620 | it's why some of the smartest people I know

02:40:18.140 | like really dumb shit, you know?

02:40:21.740 | It's why like Rick and Morty, I think is brilliant

02:40:24.020 | because it's both smart and dumb.

02:40:27.060 | - Yeah, it's the perfect combination.

02:40:28.940 | - It really is, yeah.

02:40:29.900 | I think it's possibly the perfect show.

02:40:32.700 | - Is there advice you can give to somebody like me

02:40:35.780 | on how to interview well, how to do conversations well?

02:40:40.780 | Do you think there's something transferable

02:40:44.220 | from the courtroom to this setting with complicated people?

02:40:49.220 | - Yeah, I think so.

02:40:51.580 | I think what can be learned about interviewing

02:40:54.340 | is the distillation, like what is most important?

02:41:01.420 | When I hear a story that I have to present to a judge,

02:41:04.700 | the totality of someone's parenting,

02:41:07.060 | the good of their parenting, the bad of their parenting,

02:41:09.580 | the good of the other parent, the bad of the other parent,

02:41:12.500 | I have to sort of boil down what are the best examples

02:41:16.380 | 'cause I can't lay it all out.

02:41:17.880 | And then what greater principle do they speak to?

02:41:23.940 | You know, the best jujitsu teacher

02:41:26.940 | that I think I've had is Paul Schreiner.

02:41:29.340 | And Paul doesn't just teach you techniques.

02:41:33.940 | He's teaching you ways of thinking about concepts

02:41:37.300 | in jujitsu and then here are some techniques

02:41:40.220 | that illustrate that.

02:41:41.540 | John Donaher, from what I can see,

02:41:43.420 | does a lot of that as well.

02:41:44.860 | I think they're like soulmates in the jujitsu world.

02:41:47.620 | - Yeah.

02:41:49.060 | And then there's that element that you spoke to,

02:41:51.060 | which is maybe considering the other side.

02:41:55.500 | - Well, always.

02:41:56.500 | - Devil's advocate kind of thing.

02:41:58.140 | - Yeah, I mean, straw man, steel man stuff.

02:42:00.020 | You do a lot of that

02:42:01.140 | and I think all the best interviewers do.

02:42:02.660 | But yeah, I think it's really, really important

02:42:05.340 | to think about, I have to know the other side's case

02:42:09.340 | much better than my own.

02:42:10.740 | I have to know what are their defenses,

02:42:14.140 | what are their strengths.

02:42:16.200 | I have to map out a strategy that keeps those in mind.

02:42:21.200 | And that's hard because early in my career,

02:42:25.640 | I would attribute to the other side

02:42:30.240 | an intelligence and strategy

02:42:33.400 | that sometimes wasn't applicable.

02:42:35.200 | Like I've learned, there's the simplest explanation

02:42:40.200 | is the accurate one, the Occam's razor.

02:42:43.720 | I think sextants would never attribute to strategy

02:42:48.080 | that which could be attributed to stupidity or laziness.

02:42:52.200 | Because I have lots of adversaries

02:42:53.560 | that like they'll not file a motion

02:42:55.880 | I thought they were gonna file.

02:42:57.200 | And I'll go, wait, why didn't they file that?

02:42:59.160 | Like tactically, what are they thinking I'm gonna do?

02:43:01.360 | And what is that about?

02:43:03.480 | And I would go, well, if I didn't file it,

02:43:04.960 | why wouldn't I file?

02:43:05.800 | And the answer is like, they just didn't think to file it

02:43:07.980 | or like they were too lazy to draft it

02:43:09.800 | or they went on vacation last week.

02:43:11.240 | So that's why they didn't.

02:43:12.080 | And I'm driving myself crazy going,

02:43:15.520 | there's some tactical reason, there must be.

02:43:17.880 | So I think you have to look honestly

02:43:21.920 | and don't attribute to the other side, your constitution.

02:43:26.600 | If I said that, I'd be saying it sarcastically.

02:43:29.660 | If you said it, maybe you weren't saying it sarcastically.

02:43:32.240 | Like you have to think about the fact

02:43:33.760 | that we're unique human beings

02:43:35.560 | who express themselves differently.

02:43:38.360 | - And for you, the audience is usually the judge?

02:43:40.560 | Do you do jury? - Yeah, it's the judge.

02:43:41.680 | No, we don't do jury trials.

02:43:42.960 | That's the interesting thing about family law attorneys.

02:43:44.820 | Family law attorneys don't do jury trials.

02:43:46.320 | We do bench trials.

02:43:47.500 | We just persuade there's a person in a black robe.

02:43:49.440 | That's the only person I have to convince.

02:43:51.360 | - Does the person in the black robe,

02:43:52.560 | do they have emotions?

02:43:53.960 | Are they human?

02:43:54.800 | Are they very-- - They are human.

02:43:56.120 | They are all too human.

02:43:57.680 | - Do they impose that humanity on you?

02:43:59.160 | Like, do you feel it?

02:44:00.520 | - Oh yeah, oh yeah.

02:44:01.880 | Oh no, they, do you feel it?

02:44:04.280 | Like, they're human.

02:44:06.400 | They're working their shit out.

02:44:07.960 | They're parents.

02:44:11.200 | They're husbands and wives.

02:44:13.940 | And you're talking about stuff they deal with.

02:44:19.240 | I had a woman on the stand, an expert witness on the stand,

02:44:22.820 | who was talking about the emotional and physical abuse

02:44:29.080 | that was perpetrated on a seven-year-old.

02:44:32.440 | And this person had written a bunch of reports

02:44:37.280 | that were in evidence in this trial,

02:44:38.840 | were on like day six or seven of the trial.

02:44:41.000 | And there's all of this information in the record

02:44:44.840 | about this verbal abuse and mental abuse

02:44:47.920 | and like gaslighting and like really intense stuff

02:44:50.720 | that this woman was doing to this seven-year-old.

02:44:53.260 | And the judge was like vaguely paying attention

02:44:55.240 | for most of the time.

02:44:56.300 | And at some point, the person says,

02:44:59.880 | "Well, when a parent is abusing a child,"

02:45:02.160 | and the judge just interrupts.

02:45:03.080 | She goes, "Well, look, you know,

02:45:04.480 | "do you think like if a person spanks a child,

02:45:06.620 | "that that's abuse?"

02:45:07.820 | She's like, "Well, like a person in general?"

02:45:12.080 | Like, and by the way, if my adversary asked that question,

02:45:14.680 | I could object, but I can't object

02:45:16.320 | when the judge asks a question.

02:45:18.320 | They get to rule on that objection.

02:45:20.440 | So I'm like, "Where's this going?"

02:45:22.600 | She's like, "Well, no, I mean,

02:45:23.580 | "spanking can be a form of abuse."

02:45:25.520 | She's like, "Right, but like, you know,

02:45:26.820 | "are you saying like everybody who spanks child?"

02:45:28.440 | And I'm sitting here going,

02:45:29.280 | "What is going on in your house?"

02:45:30.680 | Yeah.

02:45:31.520 | And she's like, "What went on with your parents?

02:45:33.040 | "Like, 'cause you're bringing some stuff here

02:45:36.380 | "that's not, this is not what you're supposed to be.

02:45:39.080 | "This is not your role, you know?"

02:45:41.280 | But there are good judges and bad judges.

02:45:43.280 | And that's a big, big deal.

02:45:46.600 | - Well, I've noticed that, now, I don't have kids,

02:45:50.080 | so I have a certain perspective on the world.

02:45:53.360 | I really wanna have a family and have kids.

02:45:55.840 | But I've noticed when I talk to people that have kids,

02:45:58.820 | and gender matters also, like fathers are,

02:46:03.200 | like with daughters and so on,

02:46:06.380 | like it changes the landscape of the conversation.

02:46:11.040 | - Sure does.

02:46:12.380 | - It's like, you're no longer this intellectual

02:46:15.440 | that's like, "Well, there's this and there's this."

02:46:18.120 | It's more like, like go fuck yourself.

02:46:22.200 | Anything that fucks with kids can like burn it to the ground.

02:46:27.200 | I don't care what the nuance is

02:46:33.040 | of the little intellectual thing.

02:46:34.440 | - Oh, you wanna learn about this.

02:46:36.560 | Represent someone who's accused of child sexual abuse.

02:46:40.360 | I've had about a dozen of those cases

02:46:42.940 | where I've represented someone who's alleged

02:46:45.100 | to have perpetrated sexual abuse of a child.

02:46:47.380 | You are guilty until proven innocent.

02:46:50.180 | And let me tell you, as a lawyer,

02:46:52.700 | that is the toughest cases,

02:46:55.880 | because you put sex and kids together

02:46:58.600 | and everyone loses their goddamn mind immediately.

02:47:03.180 | There's a rush to judgment.

02:47:04.840 | There is a disregard for procedure.

02:47:08.140 | There is a confirmation bias.

02:47:10.260 | There's a desire to be a protector.

02:47:12.180 | And again, all motivated and informed

02:47:15.020 | by really good things, the desire to protect the innocent,

02:47:18.660 | the desire to protect the vulnerable.

02:47:21.020 | But gang, no.

02:47:23.500 | Like we have these, I like living in a world

02:47:26.340 | that has due process.

02:47:28.500 | I like these rules.

02:47:29.860 | I like the rules of evidence.

02:47:32.020 | I like innocent until proven guilty.

02:47:34.180 | I like that.

02:47:35.920 | I'm not saying it's perfect.

02:47:37.620 | - It's such a, I'm so torn on it,

02:47:39.940 | because I also like living in a world

02:47:42.580 | where people are so emotionally invested

02:47:46.300 | in connection to other like humans.

02:47:51.140 | - Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

02:47:52.820 | They shouldn't be.

02:47:54.220 | - I know, but if you dedicate yourself fully to the law,

02:47:58.220 | you might lose some of the humanity.

02:47:59.900 | - I don't think you have to.

02:48:00.740 | I have to tell you, I once actually went off

02:48:03.660 | on a DA, on a district attorney,

02:48:07.140 | who was very vehemently prosecuting a child sex abuse case

02:48:12.140 | that I was involved in.

02:48:14.620 | And I remember, I came in,

02:48:18.500 | thankfully I came in very early in the case.

02:48:21.220 | So the accusation was made and I came in right away.

02:48:24.860 | 'Cause very often you get this case,

02:48:26.100 | there've been 15 interviews,

02:48:27.700 | this person's been interviewed by police,

02:48:29.500 | by Child Protective Services,

02:48:31.300 | and it's like they're already so far down a hole

02:48:34.740 | they didn't even know they dug themselves into, you know?

02:48:37.620 | So I got in very early on and I just kept saying,

02:48:41.380 | she's like, "Well, we're gonna do this,

02:48:42.220 | "we're gonna do this."

02:48:43.060 | I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't,

02:48:44.780 | "we should both want this to be fair, done properly."

02:48:49.500 | Like there's an expert, a well-respected expert

02:48:54.100 | who's a clinical psychologist

02:48:55.620 | who their job is they're a validation expert.

02:48:57.740 | So their job is to interview a child.

02:48:59.740 | They record the interviews with a hidden camera

02:49:03.380 | so that everyone can see they didn't have

02:49:04.780 | suggestive questioning,

02:49:05.860 | there are very stringent standards that they follow

02:49:09.740 | to prevent like suggestive questioning

02:49:11.700 | or any of those kinds of things.

02:49:12.900 | And I was saying, "Listen, no,

02:49:15.500 | "no one should be interviewing this child

02:49:17.660 | "other than this person,

02:49:19.540 | "who's a neutral, qualified person."

02:49:21.940 | And I kept saying to the other side,

02:49:23.380 | like, "Wait, no, no, you're,

02:49:24.820 | "see, this is the problem, like you wanna win.

02:49:27.120 | "You're a lawyer, you wanna win.

02:49:28.260 | "I wanna win too, right?

02:49:30.920 | "But we wanna win fair."

02:49:33.020 | Like that's like saying,

02:49:34.140 | "I'm going into a boxing match, I wanna win.

02:49:35.940 | "So if the referee's looking to the side,

02:49:37.740 | "I'm gonna kick the guy in the nuts."

02:49:39.180 | Like, okay, then you might've won,

02:49:40.740 | but you didn't win boxing.

02:49:42.620 | You won some other thing.

02:49:44.000 | Like I wanna win a fair fight.

02:49:48.260 | Like I want to go in with the rules set,

02:49:51.600 | the law, the rules of evidence.

02:49:53.260 | I don't want a judge who doesn't understand evidence.

02:49:55.940 | I don't want an adversary

02:49:57.260 | who plays it fast and loose with the rules.

02:49:58.660 | I wanna go in and win a fair fight.

02:50:00.960 | And that's where when it comes,

02:50:02.960 | our passion to protect the innocent,

02:50:06.240 | to emotionally connect,

02:50:08.300 | to feel deeply about children and protecting them,

02:50:12.140 | I don't think that that's antagonistic to,

02:50:14.680 | like we always treat dandruff

02:50:16.160 | with decapitation in this culture,

02:50:17.980 | and I don't understand it.

02:50:19.960 | And that's what I like about the law.

02:50:21.320 | The law, there's rules,

02:50:23.800 | and there's rules about procedure.

02:50:26.440 | And so that's our job,

02:50:27.980 | is to bring out the truth

02:50:29.360 | using the rules and the procedure.

02:50:31.000 | And I love that job.

02:50:32.200 | - But still there's a human being in the judge, right?

02:50:36.800 | - That's the problem.

02:50:37.920 | - It seems like a really hard job.

02:50:39.880 | - It's a real area.

02:50:40.700 | - 'Cause you have to pay attention to the whole thing.

02:50:42.800 | - You have to pay attention to the whole thing,

02:50:44.160 | and everyone is trying to persuade you and lie to you.

02:50:47.800 | - Yeah.

02:50:48.640 | - And everyone can keep their shit together

02:50:52.320 | in a court appearance most of the time.

02:50:54.600 | Like it takes a rare kind of crazy

02:50:55.980 | to blow up in a courtroom.

02:50:57.160 | So most of the time,

02:50:58.000 | everybody looks really put together,

02:50:59.320 | and like, yeah, you gotta have an amazing bullshit detector.

02:51:01.760 | I'm not saying they don't have a really hard job.

02:51:03.320 | They have a really hard job.

02:51:04.600 | They have a way harder job than I have.

02:51:06.280 | - What's their source of ground truth?

02:51:09.120 | Like how do they sharpen the radar for bullshit?

02:51:12.720 | - I think that they're assessing credibility,

02:51:15.440 | which is what you call it in the law,

02:51:17.320 | is something that, you know,

02:51:19.280 | I think you're supposed to develop it on the job.

02:51:22.000 | - Do you have the data of who was lying in the end or not?

02:51:25.680 | - No, not really.

02:51:27.040 | Not really.

02:51:27.880 | I can try to demonstrate a lot.

02:51:30.240 | What I always tell clients,

02:51:31.400 | and this is the art of advocacy, right,

02:51:33.680 | is I want to use examples of misrepresentations

02:51:38.680 | to show that this person's a liar.

02:51:43.320 | Like I'm trying to extrapolate from the small, the large.

02:51:48.200 | Like I'm trying to say, here's three times he lied,

02:51:51.480 | therefore he's a liar.

02:51:53.920 | When in fact, you know,

02:51:54.800 | we know human beings don't really work that way.

02:51:57.360 | But I've seen people submarine,

02:51:59.960 | they're just torpedo their entire case

02:52:03.200 | because they lied about some dumb shit,

02:52:05.960 | some dumb little thing.

02:52:07.880 | And I say to them, why would you lie?

02:52:10.840 | Why did you lie about that?

02:52:12.520 | Like I had a case where a person was accused

02:52:15.600 | of child sexual abuse.

02:52:17.600 | And on cross-examination, they were asked,

02:52:19.520 | did you have an affair with this babysitter?

02:52:21.760 | And they were like, no, no, no, no, no.

02:52:24.520 | And then it was shown through text messages and things.

02:52:26.840 | They clearly had an affair with the babysitter.

02:52:29.320 | And I said, why did you lie?

02:52:31.640 | And they said, well, I didn't want that to come out.

02:52:33.160 | I said, right, but now you're a liar.

02:52:36.000 | Like, did you molest your child?

02:52:39.000 | 'Cause if the answer to that is no,

02:52:42.000 | and now you destroyed your credibility

02:52:44.320 | 'cause you didn't want to admit

02:52:45.880 | that you slept with an adult woman.

02:52:48.160 | By the way, it would have been good for your case.

02:52:50.640 | Would have been good for your case for you to say,

02:52:52.160 | yeah, I slept with her

02:52:53.000 | 'cause I like sleeping with adult women.

02:52:55.280 | That's how I am.

02:52:56.120 | I don't sleep with children, much less my own.

02:52:58.440 | So why would you lie?

02:53:02.720 | And so that concept is incredibly important.

02:53:06.600 | And judges, theoretically,

02:53:08.120 | they have to make very tough calls.

02:53:10.160 | I feel like it's the most impotent place

02:53:13.160 | to just sit there and dispassionately sort of listen

02:53:15.840 | and rule on objections.

02:53:17.040 | Like, I just would be so frustrated

02:53:19.640 | 'cause I'd want to get up and,

02:53:21.280 | you know, I had to do jury duty once.

02:53:23.400 | And it was like a horrific experience for me

02:53:26.600 | because I'm sitting there and I'm-

02:53:27.440 | You have no power.

02:53:28.280 | You're just a taker. Yeah, I'm just watching

02:53:29.400 | these two lawyers.

02:53:30.240 | I'm like, why did you ask that question that way?

02:53:31.240 | I would never have asked it that way.

02:53:32.400 | Why would you object?

02:53:33.840 | When you object, you bring more attention to it.

02:53:35.360 | What are you doing?

02:53:36.240 | Like, I'm watching both of them.

02:53:37.400 | It's like watching like a jujitsu,

02:53:39.400 | but probably what it'd feel like

02:53:41.040 | for like John Donahue to watch two white belts spar.

02:53:44.080 | Like, why are you doing, wow, my God, what are you doing?

02:53:46.560 | Why would you grab that?

02:53:47.560 | What are you thinking?

02:53:48.880 | Like, and, you know, it's frustrating.

02:53:51.360 | It's frustrating to watch.

02:53:52.520 | And as a judge, it must just be unbelievable.

02:53:55.400 | So divorce lawyers sometimes get a bad rap.

02:53:59.640 | Is there a reason for this?

02:54:01.240 | I mean, no one's ever happy to be spending time

02:54:06.600 | with a divorce lawyer.

02:54:08.320 | Like if you have a criminal lawyer,

02:54:09.720 | they're defending you against the maelstrom of injustice

02:54:12.400 | and false allegations.

02:54:13.680 | They're protecting your freedom.

02:54:16.080 | And maybe you're acquitted and then you're like,

02:54:18.120 | oh, that person saved me, you know?

02:54:20.360 | You buy a house, you know,

02:54:22.040 | that lawyer helps you get the house.

02:54:23.760 | You know, you're happy about that.

02:54:24.840 | Sign the paperwork.

02:54:25.680 | You do a will, like you help them make you feel secure.

02:54:28.000 | Like at best, I'm a representative of a chapter

02:54:32.640 | in someone's life that was very unpleasant.

02:54:35.080 | I have a friend who's a Juilliard-trained classical pianist

02:54:38.200 | and he was having a humidification system

02:54:41.640 | installed in his home

02:54:43.440 | because his piano required a certain level of humidity.

02:54:47.040 | And it was very expensive

02:54:48.320 | to install this humidification system.

02:54:50.920 | And we went out to dinner and then we came back to his place

02:54:53.880 | and he said, man, this is the most depressing $15,000

02:54:58.040 | I've ever spent.

02:54:59.040 | And I said, why?

02:54:59.880 | And he said, 'cause there's nothing different.

02:55:02.720 | Like I spent $15,000

02:55:03.960 | and I feel absolutely nothing different.

02:55:06.200 | My piano does, but I don't.

02:55:08.160 | Like I don't have anything to show for it.

02:55:09.760 | Like you finish getting divorced,

02:55:12.000 | you don't really have anything to show for it.

02:55:13.880 | Yeah.

02:55:14.720 | At best.

02:55:15.640 | Yeah.

02:55:16.480 | At best, it's the same.

02:55:17.320 | 'Cause one of the things I think that's interesting

02:55:18.680 | about divorce is in our increasingly performative society,

02:55:22.380 | you can't pretend you meant to get divorced.

02:55:25.840 | You can't.

02:55:27.080 | Like everything everybody does.

02:55:28.360 | Like, well, I wrote that album for me.

02:55:29.680 | It didn't matter that it was not gonna be popular.

02:55:31.600 | No, you wanted that album to be popular.

02:55:33.520 | Like, come on.

02:55:34.440 | Like you're lying.

02:55:35.280 | And that's fine, but you're lying.

02:55:36.600 | Oh, I think my haircut came out great.

02:55:38.480 | I wanted it to look this fucked up.

02:55:39.880 | No, you didn't.

02:55:40.720 | You didn't, you're lying.

02:55:41.760 | And that's fine because we live in a society now

02:55:44.060 | where everybody's just, oh yes, I meant to do that.

02:55:46.040 | Okay, divorce, nope.

02:55:48.440 | You got married.

02:55:49.960 | You wouldn't, you break up in a relationship,

02:55:52.480 | not a marriage.

02:55:53.320 | Okay, well, we were only gonna be together

02:55:54.600 | for a little while.

02:55:55.440 | It was never serious.

02:55:56.260 | We were just like, you know, we were having fun.

02:55:57.680 | That's all it was.

02:55:58.520 | It wasn't, we were never gonna be happily ever after.

02:56:00.720 | No, you got married.

02:56:01.960 | You got married, guys.

02:56:03.720 | You got up there and you said forever.

02:56:06.000 | And it didn't go forever.

02:56:09.640 | So you can't bullshit anybody anymore.

02:56:12.720 | Like you, no, it didn't go the way

02:56:14.360 | you thought it was gonna go.

02:56:15.200 | It didn't go the way you signed on for.

02:56:16.800 | So now that that's undeniable,

02:56:20.720 | like what can we make it?

02:56:22.680 | What can we make it into?

02:56:23.680 | Like it can be beautiful.

02:56:24.520 | You know, the barn's burned down.

02:56:25.360 | Now I can see the moon.

02:56:26.660 | You know, like let's make it something.

02:56:28.520 | And so for me, I think people look at a divorce lawyer

02:56:31.840 | and they just go, yeah, like this is this horrible chapter

02:56:36.160 | and I associate you with it.

02:56:37.640 | Also too, listen, some of the things we do,

02:56:40.940 | it's difficult to simultaneously prevent

02:56:44.200 | and prepare for war.

02:56:45.480 | The things you do to protect your client sometimes

02:56:50.500 | look like acts of aggression,

02:56:52.460 | but really they're just trying to shore up a defense.

02:56:57.320 | And so I get paid to be paranoid

02:56:59.160 | and I have to say to clients sometimes like,

02:57:00.840 | well, are you sure that they're not doing this?

02:57:03.040 | And then they go, well, I don't know.

02:57:04.200 | And I go, well, let me inquire.

02:57:05.560 | Did she accuse me of that?

02:57:06.680 | No, no, I'm not accusing you.

02:57:08.200 | I'm just trying, like we get a reputation, divorce lawyers,

02:57:12.080 | as amping up a conflict 'cause we get paid

02:57:14.760 | for the conflict, right?

02:57:16.520 | So like if you get paid by the bullet,

02:57:18.520 | you're gonna start a lot of gunfights, right?

02:57:22.680 | It doesn't really work that way

02:57:24.400 | with most good divorce lawyers.

02:57:26.680 | Like there are plenty of people that are bad lawyers

02:57:30.000 | and they stoke up conflict because it jacks up fees.

02:57:33.180 | They usually don't do well.

02:57:34.960 | They don't build a successful career

02:57:36.760 | 'cause you live and die by your reputation.

02:57:38.400 | Yes, reputation is everything.

02:57:40.040 | But good lawyers, like good experienced divorce lawyers,

02:57:44.800 | we do the whole, you know, hey, listen,

02:57:49.240 | you're gonna say this, I'm gonna say this.

02:57:50.600 | You're gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.

02:57:52.360 | Let's skip it.

02:57:53.360 | We're gonna end up here.

02:57:54.400 | You know, we got Judge Blavov Law

02:57:55.760 | and you know what he's gonna do.

02:57:56.760 | He's gonna go right here.

02:57:57.640 | So why don't we just agree right now to X, Y, Z?

02:57:59.640 | Sounds good, we're done, we're good.

02:58:01.120 | - So you wanna minimize the number of bullets.

02:58:03.240 | - It's like the two, it's like a "Moyamada Mishashi."

02:58:05.560 | You know, it's like the two swordsmen who see each other

02:58:08.480 | and they just stand there at the edge

02:58:10.280 | and they see the whole fight in their minds

02:58:12.380 | and they know who won and who lost and they walk away.

02:58:14.840 | Like we do a lot of that.

02:58:16.480 | We do a lot of, okay.

02:58:18.280 | You know, it's like when you watch high-level chess

02:58:22.040 | and someone resigns and you go, wait, what happened?

02:58:24.880 | He didn't win and you go, no, no, the other guy won.

02:58:28.000 | It's 15 moves from now, but he won

02:58:31.280 | and the other guy sees it.

02:58:32.760 | So now we're done.

02:58:34.160 | - Can you speak to some recent high-profile divorces?

02:58:38.680 | Like the most recent I saw is Kevin Costner.

02:58:42.760 | - Yeah, Kevin Costner's a great,

02:58:44.400 | I mean, I don't know him, I'm not involved in the case.

02:58:46.080 | - By the way, "Yellowstone" is just so great.

02:58:47.680 | - Oh, it's so good, right?

02:58:48.520 | - And I hope Matthew McConaughey, who I've gotten to know,

02:58:51.200 | I hope he does one of these shows.

02:58:54.840 | It's "Yellowstone" or anything else.

02:58:55.960 | He's just born for the role, frankly, but anyway.

02:58:58.680 | - He'd be amazing in that.

02:58:59.800 | Yeah, your conversation with him was great.

02:59:01.760 | The Kevin Costner divorce is interesting

02:59:03.680 | because Kevin Costner had one of the most expensive,

02:59:07.680 | from a distributive award perspective,

02:59:10.240 | like he gave a huge payout to his first wife.

02:59:13.440 | And then this time he had a prenup.

02:59:17.240 | So it's actually, it's a very public showing

02:59:20.520 | of the fact that one's bitten twice shy.

02:59:22.740 | Like he had a very public divorce

02:59:25.060 | that cost him a lot of assets

02:59:27.900 | in terms of the division of assets.

02:59:30.000 | And now it appears by all acknowledged reports

02:59:32.960 | that he had a prenuptial agreement

02:59:34.680 | that was well-crafted and enforceable.

02:59:37.480 | And the argument now is over what is child support,

02:59:42.480 | what is spousal support,

02:59:45.300 | what's covered in the prenup and what isn't.

02:59:47.200 | - So it seems like the prenup worked, actually.

02:59:49.040 | - The prenup worked.

02:59:49.880 | You know, in Kevin Costner's career,

02:59:51.600 | which has always been a steady career,

02:59:53.900 | I don't know that in the Hollywood stock market

02:59:59.880 | that people would have bet on "Yellowstone."

03:00:02.000 | Like I think you would have said,

03:00:03.560 | "Hey, the best years of that guy's career were behind him."

03:00:06.400 | You know, how do you get better

03:00:07.540 | than dances with wolves and Robin Hood

03:00:10.160 | and like all these big, big, the bodyguard.

03:00:13.680 | And then "Yellowstone."

03:00:15.080 | And it's like, holy cow, did he knock that out of the park?

03:00:17.520 | And he's central to it.

03:00:18.920 | I mean, he knocked the skin off the ball.

03:00:20.600 | So I think that's why prenups are important.

03:00:24.080 | You don't know what your career is gonna do.

03:00:25.600 | You don't know where it's gonna go.

03:00:26.800 | And so he saved himself a lot of money.

03:00:29.440 | He also has a great lawyer.

03:00:31.560 | He has Laura Wasser.

03:00:32.440 | Laura Wasser is, you know, LA, you know,

03:00:35.280 | just a top professional, brilliant lawyer,

03:00:38.040 | even-tempered but intense in the courtroom

03:00:41.940 | and just a smart, smart human being.

03:00:44.160 | - The thing I liked just, you know,

03:00:46.520 | I haven't been following it,

03:00:48.040 | but I saw a few comments he's made

03:00:50.280 | and he like refused to comment negatively

03:00:54.040 | about his spouse and just smart.

03:00:56.200 | But like the way he said it, it wasn't lawyer advice.

03:01:01.400 | It's good lawyer advice probably.

03:01:03.680 | But he said it from the heart,

03:01:04.720 | which I always like, I like seeing that.

03:01:07.240 | - Yeah.

03:01:08.080 | - Like where he refuses even the drama,

03:01:11.240 | even the public nature of it to like throwing jabs or.

03:01:15.280 | - Well, Laura, his lawyer is actually notorious

03:01:17.960 | for like not speaking to the press about cases

03:01:20.920 | in an extended way.

03:01:22.520 | And that's smart move.

03:01:23.680 | Like I don't speak about pending cases

03:01:25.260 | I'm involved in publicly.

03:01:27.520 | And I discourage my clients from doing so.

03:01:29.480 | I can't always stop them.

03:01:31.100 | But I discourage them from doing so.

03:01:33.520 | I don't think there's any good to come of it.

03:01:35.560 | There are lawyers who try to try things

03:01:37.560 | in the court of public opinion.

03:01:39.120 | I think there is a,

03:01:42.920 | to take it to the broader principle you just brought up.

03:01:44.960 | I think there is a lot of value

03:01:47.160 | in talking about your ex in a favorable way.

03:01:50.560 | I have to say, when I first got divorced many years ago,

03:01:55.520 | I went on a date with a young woman.

03:01:57.560 | It's one of my first dates as a divorced man.

03:02:00.680 | And she was a divorced woman.

03:02:02.900 | And she's a beautiful woman.

03:02:04.920 | And we were having dinner and it was going quite well.

03:02:07.520 | And it was one of those things where I was like,

03:02:08.600 | oh, I definitely wanna see this girl again.

03:02:11.200 | And I said something about,

03:02:12.040 | oh, there's gonna be this thing at this museum,

03:02:14.240 | we should go.

03:02:15.080 | And she's like, oh yeah, that'd be a lot of fun.

03:02:16.160 | And I'm like, yeah, we should definitely,

03:02:17.560 | maybe that will be the next thing we do together.

03:02:19.880 | And she was like, yeah, we should go next weekend.

03:02:21.280 | Like the kids are with the asshole, so we can go.

03:02:23.280 | And I just, it was like,

03:02:25.540 | you could hear that record scratch.

03:02:26.880 | Like, (imitates record scratching)

03:02:27.720 | And I just went, oh yeah, no, this isn't good.

03:02:30.760 | Like, I'm not, you're referring to the father of your kids

03:02:32.920 | as the asshole?

03:02:34.540 | Like, we're already, I'm walking into something here

03:02:37.240 | that I don't know that I wanna be involved in.

03:02:38.880 | Matthew McConaughey, before he was married,

03:02:41.920 | if you look at his history,

03:02:44.640 | he dated some of the most beautiful women in Hollywood

03:02:49.640 | in their prime.

03:02:52.840 | And none of them ever talked bad about him in the press.

03:02:57.840 | They all were like, oh my God, he's such a great guy,

03:03:01.400 | such a great guy.

03:03:02.240 | And I always wondered, like, how do you,

03:03:04.840 | he got out of all of those relationships

03:03:07.680 | without a scratch on him.

03:03:09.800 | And when you'd watch an interview with him,

03:03:12.280 | they would say like, so you dated Penelope Cruz.

03:03:17.000 | And he'd go, Penelope, that's just a special lady.

03:03:22.120 | She's just a, what a special lady.

03:03:24.720 | She's just a wonderful, what a wonderful woman.

03:03:27.520 | I'm just so blessed to have the time with her.

03:03:29.820 | What a beautiful, wonderful woman.

03:03:31.680 | And I would think to myself, I'm like, you're a genius.

03:03:34.720 | Like, he's a genius.

03:03:36.120 | Because like, he'd never came off as petty, spiteful, bitter,

03:03:41.120 | any of that.

03:03:42.200 | He just came off as like, just dignified, strong,

03:03:45.360 | smart, self-assured.

03:03:47.160 | And like, it left, you know, it left like,

03:03:50.240 | it left the viewer with the impression that like,

03:03:54.400 | when he was looking off in space,

03:03:55.240 | he's probably like, just thinking about

03:03:57.000 | some wonderful time he had with her.

03:03:59.400 | And you think to yourself, like, God, that guy,

03:04:01.320 | like, he just became cooler and cooler.

03:04:04.440 | Whereas if he got into like, the whole, you know,

03:04:07.440 | oh yeah, that was ugly.

03:04:08.560 | And then, you know, this happened.

03:04:09.800 | And like, nobody wants to hear it.

03:04:11.240 | It's awful.

03:04:12.080 | - The funny thing about him just having interacted

03:04:13.800 | with him a bunch, I don't think,

03:04:15.320 | he's in the Rogan school of thought, I think,

03:04:19.360 | that I don't see him ever having a fight.

03:04:22.040 | Now, his parents were, as he's spoken about a bunch,

03:04:26.000 | nonstop fighting.

03:04:27.120 | They got divorced and remarried and just insane.

03:04:30.640 | - And they were volatile.

03:04:31.640 | - Yeah, very.

03:04:32.480 | And he seems, maybe you kind of,

03:04:35.440 | it's a pendulum swinging the other way.

03:04:36.840 | He just seems cool as a cucumber, like, always.

03:04:39.680 | - Just lets it roll off.

03:04:41.840 | But you know, even if it's internally not rolling off,

03:04:47.720 | there is value in just rising above it in your discourse.

03:04:52.720 | - That's true, yes.

03:04:55.720 | - Like, you lie to your children.

03:04:58.880 | Like, people say this to me all the time, clients.

03:05:00.520 | They're like, you know, why did you tell your child

03:05:03.640 | that dad had an affair?

03:05:05.040 | Well, I'm not gonna lie to my kids.

03:05:07.240 | Fuck you.

03:05:08.160 | Yes, you are.

03:05:09.000 | You lie to your kids all the time.

03:05:11.160 | Mommy, are you gonna die someday?

03:05:12.560 | Yes, babe, I'm gonna die and daddy's gonna die.

03:05:14.840 | And then someday the earth's gonna hurl into the sun

03:05:16.640 | and we're all gonna die.

03:05:17.800 | Sweet dreams.

03:05:18.640 | Like, that's not, you lie to your kids all the time.

03:05:21.240 | You know, what's wrong with me?

03:05:22.600 | We don't know what's wrong with you.

03:05:23.720 | We're gonna take you to the doctor

03:05:24.600 | and hopefully it's nothing serious and you won't die.

03:05:26.720 | Like, you lie to your kids all the time.

03:05:28.360 | You tell them that Santa Claus exists when he does,

03:05:30.240 | whatever.

03:05:31.680 | So to say, I'm not gonna lie to my kids.

03:05:34.400 | Like, you lie to your kids all the time.

03:05:35.880 | You don't like your husband, that's okay.

03:05:38.360 | You don't like your ex-husband, but it's their father.

03:05:40.920 | So just grin, you know.

03:05:42.800 | Oh, daddy took me to meet his new girlfriend, Kiki.

03:05:44.760 | Oh, that's nice.

03:05:45.600 | Did you guys have a good time?

03:05:46.440 | You did, oh, that's, yeah.

03:05:47.280 | And she helped me do my hair and she did my makeup.

03:05:49.280 | Listen, I'm sure that's burning you inside.

03:05:52.560 | But you go, oh, that's great.

03:05:54.360 | 'Cause why?

03:05:55.200 | You love your kids.

03:05:56.080 | - Well, that's what, I mean, again,

03:05:57.880 | Makani has a way bottom with that.

03:06:00.520 | He's like, he basically says never lie,

03:06:02.880 | but a little bullshit is okay.

03:06:04.800 | - Sure, sure, yeah.

03:06:07.080 | - I mean, I'm very, Tom Waits has that song, "Lie to Me."

03:06:11.200 | You gotta lie to me, baby.

03:06:13.440 | You know, honesty is a funny thing.

03:06:15.920 | - But Tom Waits also believes that God's a way on business.

03:06:18.560 | - I think his words, man.

03:06:20.640 | - And who are the ones that we left in charge?

03:06:23.400 | Killers, thieves, and lawyers.

03:06:25.680 | That's a Tom Waits quote.

03:06:27.000 | - Well, it must be true then.

03:06:28.480 | I don't know how many limbs I have,

03:06:32.280 | but I will give all of them to talk to Tom.

03:06:35.320 | And he's a very private person.

03:06:38.080 | - I feel like he's the musical equivalent

03:06:39.400 | of Cormac McCarthy.

03:06:40.800 | - Yeah.

03:06:41.640 | - Even if you get the interview, you're not,

03:06:43.480 | I don't think, gonna get in there.

03:06:45.040 | - No, I don't think you want,

03:06:46.560 | honestly, I don't think you want to.

03:06:48.000 | I think, I've seen his public interviews over the years

03:06:52.160 | with Letterman, and I think he just, he is the poetry.

03:06:57.160 | - I would put Tom Waits, Cormac McCarthy,

03:07:02.880 | Maynard James Keenan, like these are artists that like,

03:07:08.080 | I think they want the art to speak for itself.

03:07:12.760 | They would like to be less in, they don't want you to,

03:07:17.320 | and I remember early, early days of Tool,

03:07:20.160 | that he, like this, he could not have been less interested

03:07:25.120 | in the spotlight.

03:07:26.920 | To the point where I think it was almost to the detriment

03:07:29.840 | of the band early on, you know, and that's,

03:07:32.960 | there's no surprise that those are three artists

03:07:35.280 | that I think are unbelievable,

03:07:38.280 | and in a category of their own,

03:07:40.000 | and that you hear their performance.

03:07:43.960 | Like, you can give me a page of a Cormac McCarthy novel,

03:07:46.840 | and I'll know it's a Cormac McCarthy novel.

03:07:48.680 | You can, a few notes of Maynard James Keenan

03:07:51.640 | or Tom Waits' voice, you know that that's them.

03:07:54.520 | - Yeah, it's genius, genius eyes from the spotlight.

03:07:58.120 | But, you know, it doesn't stop me

03:07:59.760 | from feeling sad about it, but anyway.

03:08:01.600 | - Yeah, that does, I would like to hear that interview.

03:08:03.520 | - She's the girl that got away.

03:08:04.800 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:08:06.200 | - And I'm just standing outside of that girl's house

03:08:09.080 | with a boob box. - You just with a sign,

03:08:10.280 | yeah, just playing in your eyes, Peter Gabriel, yeah.

03:08:13.680 | - Yeah, anyway, what does it lie to me?

03:08:17.240 | This whole idea of honesty in relationships is interesting.

03:08:21.080 | I mean, clerks with the blowjobs.

03:08:22.880 | - Yeah.

03:08:23.720 | - I don't know how to phrase it eloquently,

03:08:27.300 | but like, there's stuff you should be honest about,

03:08:31.760 | and there's stuff maybe you don't need to be honest about.

03:08:35.240 | So in the law, it is illegal to commit fraud.

03:08:40.240 | Fraud is a material misrepresentation of fact.

03:08:43.980 | But the law specifically says you're permitted

03:08:47.360 | to engage in, quote, mere puffery.

03:08:50.220 | - Nice. - Puffery.

03:08:53.000 | So, and that's the term that was used for it, puffery.

03:08:56.680 | And puffery is when you are inflating something,

03:09:01.540 | you're being like hyperbolic.

03:09:03.560 | But people wouldn't necessarily think

03:09:06.600 | you're telling the truth, you know, like it's not,

03:09:09.640 | you know, like if I say to you, this bottle of water,

03:09:12.360 | you know, was held by Elvis,

03:09:15.760 | and that's why you should pay me $50 for it, that's fraud.

03:09:18.840 | But if I say this is the water that has been,

03:09:21.020 | this water is drank by the finest people.

03:09:23.560 | Presidents drink this water.

03:09:25.800 | Now this is puffery, you know.

03:09:28.320 | And so advertising, marketing is based on puffery.

03:09:31.720 | It's not fraud.

03:09:32.560 | It's fraud, it crosses the line.

03:09:33.880 | So I think there's a difference

03:09:35.720 | between honesty and candor, right?

03:09:38.760 | So in relationships, being honest is good.

03:09:43.760 | Being totally candid is probably not a great idea.

03:09:48.280 | Like it's indelicate to be totally candid.

03:09:51.600 | About some things, if a woman you're

03:09:54.400 | in a romantic relationship with says to you,

03:09:57.520 | do I look good in this dress?

03:10:00.280 | And they don't.

03:10:02.360 | Or do I look fat in this?

03:10:05.120 | That's a better way.

03:10:05.960 | Any heterosexual man who's ever been in a relationship

03:10:08.000 | has had that question asked of him.

03:10:09.360 | Do I look fat in this?

03:10:10.440 | Does this make my butt look big?

03:10:11.680 | Or does, whatever, does this, do I look fat in this?

03:10:14.240 | If you go, yes, that's indelicate.

03:10:17.280 | It's honest, but it's indelicate,

03:10:19.280 | and it's almost mean, right?

03:10:21.560 | But there is, and if you say no, but it's true.

03:10:25.240 | She doesn't look good in that.

03:10:26.840 | The concern she sees is a legitimate concern.

03:10:31.600 | Do you lie and go, no, no, you look great in that.

03:10:36.160 | This is great.

03:10:37.000 | That's not a good thing either.

03:10:39.680 | So what do you say?

03:10:40.880 | That blue dress you have really compliments your body

03:10:47.440 | in a way that one doesn't.

03:10:49.360 | The cut of that dress is such that it doesn't flatter you.

03:10:52.960 | I see what you're saying.

03:10:54.440 | Now it's the dress, it's not you, babe.

03:10:57.800 | But I'm telling you the truth.

03:10:59.680 | I'm addressing your concern.

03:11:01.240 | This is what, this is the distinction.

03:11:05.280 | Don't material misrepresent the facts.

03:11:08.160 | Don't steer people down roads that,

03:11:11.240 | you know that that's not how it's gonna go, right?

03:11:13.800 | But so it's like if the woman says, I love you,

03:11:16.920 | and you don't love her, don't say, I love you back.

03:11:19.280 | You do the, oh, I have very strong feelings for you as well.

03:11:23.440 | There has to be some middle ground.

03:11:25.600 | You don't just pretend you didn't hear them.

03:11:27.400 | Yeah, I mean, I guess all of it requires skill

03:11:30.840 | just like you described.

03:11:31.960 | I think just being honest in quotes is not enough.

03:11:36.280 | Well, it's not a specific enough instruction.

03:11:38.800 | I mean, that's the problem.

03:11:40.360 | When you write a relationship book,

03:11:41.920 | which I never intended to do,

03:11:43.600 | people come to you and say,

03:11:47.320 | what are the things I should do to help my relationship?

03:11:52.240 | Or what is the cause of divorce?

03:11:53.880 | And you go, well, disconnection.

03:11:55.200 | But like, what do you mean by that?

03:11:56.760 | Or like, how do I improve my relationship?

03:11:58.920 | Pay more attention.

03:12:00.720 | Make small gestures.

03:12:02.640 | Okay, what does that even mean?

03:12:03.800 | Like, what do you mean?

03:12:05.040 | Like acts of love, you should show your partner

03:12:07.120 | that you love them more often.

03:12:08.160 | What do you mean?

03:12:09.000 | Like what I say, what I do, we should have more sex?

03:12:11.520 | Like, what are you saying?

03:12:13.080 | Like people want measurable, specific things.

03:12:16.560 | So that's why I tried in my book to be like very specific

03:12:19.440 | about like things you can do, things you shouldn't do.

03:12:22.600 | And they're practical suggestions.

03:12:25.840 | Like leaving a note.

03:12:27.760 | I talk a lot about leaving a note.

03:12:29.680 | Like if you're dating someone or you're living with them

03:12:32.520 | or you're in a serious relationship,

03:12:34.000 | send a text, leave a note, just little, every day,

03:12:36.840 | just some little thing that just tells them

03:12:38.800 | how much you like them.

03:12:40.280 | Like this is a low cost, high value move.

03:12:43.640 | Doesn't take much.

03:12:44.960 | And it's a practical thing.

03:12:46.240 | But we speak in these sort of like broader axioms,

03:12:49.600 | these broader concepts that people just don't have any idea

03:12:52.920 | how to practically apply.

03:12:54.600 | - I can't wait to listen to the audio book

03:12:56.680 | where you talk about managing marital finances

03:12:59.360 | is like anal sex.

03:13:00.680 | Your mastery of the metaphor touches one's heart and soul.

03:13:06.800 | You're Shakespeare of the 21st century, really.

03:13:10.880 | - I don't know that Shakespeare would have brought anal up

03:13:12.920 | in that context, but I appreciate it.

03:13:14.680 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:13:16.400 | - My thesis there or my point there was,

03:13:20.080 | you'll proceed carefully and have discussion in advance.

03:13:24.520 | And don't just spring it on someone.

03:13:26.880 | And realize that if this goes wrong,

03:13:30.120 | it will go catastrophically wrong.

03:13:32.480 | So good communication is important.

03:13:36.440 | And yeah, I don't think it's something

03:13:39.480 | you should just dive into unless you're prepared for that

03:13:43.680 | to have potentially a very negative impact.

03:13:47.560 | - And finances is one of the sources

03:13:50.520 | of a huge amount of stress in relationships, which is--

03:13:53.000 | - Tremendous.

03:13:53.840 | Because it's about value, I think.

03:13:57.640 | I mean, it's aside from having painful conversations

03:14:02.480 | about what you tried to do and were able to do

03:14:05.440 | or what your impulse control was

03:14:07.040 | in terms of what you spent money on.

03:14:08.560 | Like there's the conversation

03:14:10.560 | and then there's what's underneath the conversation.

03:14:13.200 | There's gender stuff about men feeling

03:14:15.280 | the need to be a provider.

03:14:17.080 | There's gender stuff of men or women

03:14:20.320 | thinking material goods will fill the void

03:14:22.840 | and buying things and then creating stress on their partner.

03:14:26.820 | There's the very human desire to make things seem effortless

03:14:31.320 | so your spouse doesn't feel any stress

03:14:33.560 | when in fact it's causing tremendous financial stress.

03:14:36.160 | And then when the dam breaks, it breaks hard.

03:14:38.560 | So yeah, there's a lot.

03:14:39.840 | Finance is tricky stuff and you could probably

03:14:44.080 | be wonderful romantic and sexual partners

03:14:47.840 | and have very different styles

03:14:49.720 | of how you handle your finances.

03:14:52.960 | And how you handle your finances is informed by

03:14:55.680 | not only your individual psychology

03:14:58.400 | but also how you were raised

03:14:59.880 | and how your family taught you about finance

03:15:03.000 | and how you should conduct your finances.

03:15:05.240 | - And there's interesting power dynamics in play.

03:15:07.560 | - Tremendously, yeah.

03:15:08.720 | And those are very tricky because

03:15:13.560 | the standard of living of a couple

03:15:16.120 | becomes important in a divorce.

03:15:18.760 | But sometimes the toxic standard of living

03:15:22.160 | that created toxic levels of stress

03:15:25.680 | is one of the causes of the divorce.

03:15:28.680 | And so they're asking the court

03:15:32.000 | to maintain a financial obligation on you

03:15:36.360 | that is the reason why the marriage fell apart.

03:15:39.640 | And that feels like a particularly

03:15:41.160 | insulting form of indignity.

03:15:44.680 | - Well, you're a fascinating human being on many levels

03:15:49.000 | but you're also exceptionally productive

03:15:50.960 | and you've talked to me about waking up early.

03:15:53.160 | For you, we've met today at 11 a.m.

03:15:56.240 | And for you, that's what, late afternoon, I suppose.

03:16:00.200 | We had to negotiate, come to an agreement

03:16:02.840 | because I went to bed at 4 a.m.

03:16:05.120 | And I was up at, I get up at four every day.

03:16:07.200 | - You woke up at four at the--

03:16:08.600 | - Well, I woke, it's three o'clock local time.

03:16:10.520 | So I woke up at three local time.

03:16:12.440 | Yeah, I wake up at four naturally.

03:16:13.720 | Then my body just wakes up.

03:16:15.200 | - Oh, wow, that's fascinating.

03:16:16.040 | - And it wakes up full on this speed.

03:16:18.840 | - Wow.

03:16:19.680 | - Like my most productive writing and speaking

03:16:21.960 | is from 4 a.m. until noon or one.

03:16:26.080 | - So can you take me through a productive,

03:16:29.560 | like a perfectly productive day?

03:16:31.560 | - I wake up at 4 a.m. very naturally.

03:16:34.600 | I wish I didn't, but I do check my phone first thing

03:16:37.920 | 'cause I wanna see if any emergencies came in

03:16:40.000 | from a client overnight.

03:16:41.360 | - So work emergencies.

03:16:42.760 | - Yeah, work-related emergencies.

03:16:43.920 | And as a divorce lawyer,

03:16:45.720 | our definition of emergency can be very serious.

03:16:51.520 | It's people absconding with a child.

03:16:53.320 | It's a police being involved in a domestic violence.

03:16:56.160 | And so they can be like time-sensitive things.

03:16:58.240 | And when someone is hiring a divorce lawyer,

03:17:01.000 | I think they're hiring, they want someone responsive.

03:17:03.640 | My clients have my cell phone number.

03:17:05.800 | And I go to bed early because I get up early.

03:17:09.080 | And so I go to sleep by 8 p.m. latest.

03:17:12.360 | I don't think I've seen 9 p.m. even on New Year's Eve.

03:17:15.060 | So I wake up at four.

03:17:18.200 | I check my phone, check my email.

03:17:19.680 | Usually, even if there's something that's time-sensitive,

03:17:22.340 | it's usually not so time-sensitive

03:17:23.780 | that it needs to be responded to at 4 a.m.

03:17:25.280 | 'cause most other normal people are asleep.

03:17:27.840 | I have espresso, black espresso, which I enjoy very much.

03:17:32.120 | And then I work out.

03:17:33.760 | And that someday is gonna be weights.

03:17:37.160 | A lot of days, it's just gonna be cardio.

03:17:38.640 | I've changed my habits now that I'm in my early 50s.

03:17:42.880 | It used to be much more intensive weight training

03:17:44.720 | and deadlifts and stuff like that.

03:17:46.080 | And then I herniated my L5-S1.

03:17:48.720 | So 485 was my max deadlift.

03:17:51.560 | And now I don't hardly do deadlifts.

03:17:53.440 | - Well, you can still relive the past glory.

03:17:56.000 | - I do, I still have some pictures of videos.

03:17:57.720 | - You have pictures.

03:17:58.560 | - I have videos.

03:17:59.380 | I have videos of me putting 485 for three.

03:18:00.880 | - You can, in stories, when you talk about it,

03:18:02.840 | you can exaggerate how much you've actually lifted.

03:18:04.720 | - That's true, but then you can't back it up.

03:18:06.600 | See, I'm very evidence-based.

03:18:08.120 | So if I don't have a photo or a video of it,

03:18:10.760 | it's just puffing, mere puffery at that point.

03:18:14.080 | But I work out.

03:18:15.920 | And then I try to work out for like a good hour.

03:18:18.480 | And I do that partly because of stress.

03:18:21.420 | I think when I don't work out, it's difficult.

03:18:24.320 | I had a group of guys that I would do jujitsu with

03:18:27.680 | at 5 a.m.

03:18:28.520 | They were mostly law enforcement.

03:18:29.560 | They were cops who would either be starting a shift

03:18:32.440 | or coming off of a night shift.

03:18:34.120 | And we would train together, just do like an open mat.

03:18:36.800 | And it was at 5 a.m. till six, and that was heaven.

03:18:39.120 | I love training jujitsu first thing in the morning if I can.

03:18:42.280 | And then I always do either a sauna or steam

03:18:44.920 | for 20 minutes, half an hour.

03:18:46.880 | And then I do a cold plunge,

03:18:49.160 | or if I don't have access to a cold plunge, a cold shower.

03:18:52.040 | And then I have breakfast.

03:18:54.500 | And it's usually a very uncontroversial, simple breakfast.

03:18:58.240 | I like to eat, I eat like slow carb, Tim Ferriss type style.

03:19:02.600 | And then I get right to work.

03:19:04.680 | I try to do my drafting early in the day,

03:19:07.160 | prenups, motions, things like that,

03:19:10.240 | from let's say six or seven until nine, 9.30,

03:19:15.240 | which is when court begins.

03:19:17.480 | - So drafting is like writing up different documents.

03:19:20.000 | - Right, writing prenups, writing separation agreements,

03:19:23.200 | writing settlement proposals, writing motions

03:19:25.440 | for the court, pretrial memos, which is like research

03:19:28.420 | that I wanna present to a judge that supports my arguments.

03:19:31.780 | I do drafting, I review documents that the attorneys

03:19:34.440 | who work for me have drafted and refine them.

03:19:37.880 | And then court is usually from nine o'clock until noon.

03:19:40.880 | And if we're on trial, then it's a whole different pace

03:19:43.580 | because trials, the lunch break

03:19:45.960 | isn't really a lunch break.

03:19:47.040 | You're preparing the afternoon's witnesses

03:19:48.880 | and you're trying to do damage control

03:19:50.240 | on what happened in the morning.

03:19:52.240 | But if it's just court conferences,

03:19:54.040 | like most cases, there's conferences.

03:19:56.280 | Conferences is you go in, you make oral argument,

03:19:58.320 | but you don't have witnesses on the stand,

03:20:00.080 | you're not taking testimony.

03:20:01.200 | It's like everybody's just shouting allegations

03:20:02.980 | back and forth and making temporary arguments pretrial.

03:20:07.360 | It's kind of the foreplay of the trial, right?

03:20:09.560 | - Is that exhausting, by the way?

03:20:11.400 | - It's exhausting when you're done with it.

03:20:14.360 | Like while you're doing it, it's exhilarating.

03:20:17.560 | I always say that I never sleep as poorly

03:20:20.080 | as the night before a trial, and I never sleep as well

03:20:22.780 | as the night I finished a trial.

03:20:25.000 | Because when I am on trial, I am speaking, listening,

03:20:30.000 | watching the judge closely to see what they're reacting to

03:20:35.720 | and when they're paying attention or not paying attention,

03:20:38.880 | watching opposing counsel and the opposing party,

03:20:41.480 | like when is the opposing party writing a little note

03:20:43.820 | to their lawyer to show it to them?

03:20:45.040 | What is the opposing counsel objecting to?

03:20:47.400 | My client is trying to pass me notes half the time

03:20:49.920 | while I'm speaking and making my arguments.

03:20:52.040 | I'm trying to adjust what I'm doing strategically

03:20:54.920 | based on the objections that the judge is ruling on.

03:20:58.160 | So I'm so hyper-stimulated on trial

03:21:02.120 | that when you finish, you can't even talk.

03:21:04.680 | You're gone, your brain is jello.

03:21:07.400 | Conferences is harder because at least with a trial,

03:21:09.200 | there's a singularity of focus.

03:21:11.720 | Like with a trial, it's just one case

03:21:13.760 | and they have all my attention.

03:21:15.560 | The problem is is then on the lunch break,

03:21:17.520 | all the other cases that I've been ignoring

03:21:20.040 | for the last several hours while I was on trial,

03:21:22.640 | they all have stuff going on.

03:21:25.040 | So it's like, hey, where's that settlement proposal on this?

03:21:26.880 | Hey, she just did this, we need to file a motion.

03:21:29.220 | So now it's like, okay, I have an hour to eat

03:21:32.220 | and to answer all of this in some preliminary way

03:21:34.600 | to delegate some responsibilities

03:21:35.840 | and then I got to go back in and put 100% of my focus

03:21:38.040 | on this other case again.

03:21:39.520 | So you find yourself in a place,

03:21:41.480 | that's why I'm very disciplined,

03:21:42.680 | is you find yourself in a place where I live my whole life

03:21:46.820 | in six minute increments, tenths of an hour,

03:21:49.240 | 'cause we bill in tenths of an hour.

03:21:51.080 | So everything I do, it's like 0.2, 0.4, 0.6

03:21:55.000 | and I'm logging time throughout the day.

03:21:58.160 | And you find yourself at the end of the day,

03:22:00.980 | my son is a lawyer, my older son.

03:22:04.600 | He's a district attorney and I'm very proud of him.

03:22:08.080 | He gets to put bad guys in jail and he's very smart,

03:22:11.800 | he's doing a great job.

03:22:12.960 | He just, about a year ago.

03:22:16.600 | And when he graduated from law school,

03:22:20.680 | we were very close and we were talking and he said,

03:22:23.840 | we were just talking about like the career in the law

03:22:27.240 | that he was about to embark on.

03:22:29.120 | And I said to him, you know the feeling

03:22:31.200 | at the end of the day, when like all your homework

03:22:34.720 | or all your work is done and you just go,

03:22:37.920 | okay, it's all done now and I'm gonna go home.

03:22:41.500 | You'll never have that feeling ever again, ever.

03:22:46.940 | You're just gonna every day go, all right, it's enough,

03:22:51.420 | it's enough, I gotta get out of here.

03:22:53.820 | Because you could, with every one of these cases,

03:22:58.140 | you could stay up 24 hours focusing just on it.

03:23:01.840 | So you have to have the discipline to go,

03:23:04.760 | yeah, no, that's it.

03:23:06.140 | Like I'm done for now, I've done what I could do today

03:23:08.740 | and now I'm going to sit and read for a half an hour.

03:23:11.860 | I'm gonna watch this show for a half an hour.

03:23:13.960 | I'm gonna have this meal.

03:23:16.340 | Because it's never done, you know.

03:23:18.660 | So that's challenging.

03:23:19.700 | That's a hard part of this job.

03:23:23.180 | But I think my discipline helps with that.

03:23:25.300 | And then I, like I said, I finish my day

03:23:27.900 | around 5.30, six o'clock and I have something to eat

03:23:32.900 | and I try to wind down a little

03:23:36.460 | and I'm usually in bed by 7.30 and asleep by eight.

03:23:39.580 | - Now you mentioned jiu-jitsu.

03:23:42.980 | You're a brown belt.

03:23:43.860 | What role has jiu-jitsu played in your life?

03:23:46.780 | - I love jiu-jitsu.

03:23:48.700 | I trained martial arts from the time I was a little kid.

03:23:51.180 | I think I was seven or eight.

03:23:52.100 | I took up Okinawan Goju karate and I did judo.

03:23:56.660 | And it was always part of my life.

03:23:57.940 | And then I got to college and grad school

03:23:59.940 | and I didn't have time for it and I didn't do it so much.

03:24:02.660 | And then I got divorced.

03:24:03.960 | I was quite young still when I got divorced

03:24:05.820 | and I had two young kids.

03:24:07.420 | And I thought, well, I can like, you know,

03:24:10.620 | grow a goatee and buy a convertible

03:24:12.420 | and do like the thing you're supposed to do

03:24:13.780 | when you're a dude with kids close to middle age.

03:24:17.040 | Or I can try to do something more productive.

03:24:20.980 | And so I said, well, maybe I'll go back to martial arts.

03:24:23.340 | So I took up Muay Thai kickboxing

03:24:26.380 | and they had a jiu-jitsu class

03:24:29.500 | at the same school after the Muay Thai class.

03:24:32.100 | And I had been around the orbit of jiu-jitsu,

03:24:35.100 | having been, my kids took karate

03:24:37.200 | and there was jiu-jitsu there.

03:24:38.500 | It was a Gracie Academy.

03:24:40.900 | And I stayed for a jiu-jitsu class

03:24:44.620 | and I had 120 pound girl rag doll me,

03:24:49.620 | 'cause I just knew nothing about grappling.

03:24:52.140 | And I remember just going, well,

03:24:53.460 | I gotta learn what this is.

03:24:55.140 | And that was it.

03:24:56.180 | I just dove into it.

03:24:57.520 | My first professor was Lou Ventolaro in New Jersey.

03:25:00.860 | He's a Hoyler Gracie black belt, great teacher,

03:25:03.740 | taught me amazing fundamentals,

03:25:05.340 | took me all the way up to purple belt.

03:25:07.720 | And then right after I got my purple belt,

03:25:09.380 | I moved to the city, I moved to Manhattan.

03:25:11.660 | I actually chose my apartment

03:25:13.420 | based on its proximity to Marcelo Garcia.

03:25:15.880 | And I moved to West Chelsea

03:25:18.500 | because it was a short walk to Marcelo's Academy.

03:25:22.620 | My core jiu-jitsu was up to purple belt,

03:25:25.460 | it was Lou Ventolaro and then it's been Marcelo.

03:25:28.300 | Marcelo, Paul Schreiner,

03:25:30.940 | who's really phenomenal at his Academy

03:25:32.980 | and all of the people at his Academy,

03:25:34.460 | I mean, are all phenomenal.

03:25:36.060 | I mean, Bernardo Fajao was there

03:25:38.620 | for a period of time that I was there

03:25:40.260 | and before he went to Boston.

03:25:42.140 | Marcos Tinoco was like his lasso guard stuff.

03:25:46.060 | He was at Marcelo's for a long time and what a teacher.

03:25:49.700 | I mean, my lack of skill at jiu-jitsu

03:25:52.660 | is not based on a lack of quality instruction.

03:25:56.100 | It's based on an inability to retain the information

03:25:59.300 | for very long.

03:26:00.140 | - And like for me,

03:26:01.740 | that's one of the most reliable place

03:26:04.060 | I can go to humble myself.

03:26:06.060 | I love jiu-jitsu.

03:26:08.420 | I love the progressive humility

03:26:11.820 | that it drives home constantly.

03:26:14.620 | I love the impossibility of perfecting it,

03:26:18.220 | although Gordon Ryan's probably come close

03:26:20.060 | and Marcelo's probably come close to perfecting it.

03:26:22.780 | - Let me ask you, since you mentioned Gordon Ryan,

03:26:25.420 | so apparently, so I'm close with Gordon

03:26:29.820 | and I'm sure you know in Austin,

03:26:32.460 | just this jiu-jitsu scene, it's incredible.

03:26:34.580 | - It's like a jiu-jitsu mecca.

03:26:36.420 | I'm actually seeing John Donahuer this evening.

03:26:38.820 | - Okay, so he's, I mean, yeah, this is like--

03:26:42.060 | - Yeah, this is amazing.

03:26:42.900 | - A truly special place.

03:26:44.380 | But anyway, apparently long ago, you mentioned Jersey.

03:26:48.740 | There's a bit of a conflict between you and Gordon

03:26:54.020 | and you mentioned to me offline that you love him

03:26:56.460 | and just how much respect you have for him

03:27:00.940 | as an athlete and so on.

03:27:01.940 | But can you explain why there's--

03:27:04.100 | - Yeah, I'm actually glad I have that.

03:27:05.780 | It's funny that you bring it up.

03:27:07.300 | And of all the, we're talking about all these heavy topics

03:27:09.780 | and this is probably the one that I find most,

03:27:12.660 | the most actually emotional.

03:27:14.500 | But Gordon's a very, I think a very young man still.

03:27:18.700 | He's like probably in his 20s or early 30s.

03:27:21.260 | And it's hard to imagine that

03:27:22.740 | 'cause he's accomplished so much as an athlete

03:27:25.060 | and as a business person.

03:27:26.640 | But there was a time not that long ago,

03:27:30.540 | I think it was eight or nine years ago,

03:27:33.660 | where he was just a young guy on his way up.

03:27:36.500 | He's only, I think a couple of years older

03:27:39.060 | than my oldest son.

03:27:41.180 | And I, through a series of circumstances,

03:27:44.740 | jujitsu wasn't, it's really exploded in the last 10 years,

03:27:47.980 | but there were not as many people sponsoring

03:27:51.180 | quote unquote super fights.

03:27:52.540 | There really weren't like jujitsu super fights

03:27:54.580 | being sponsored, Jersey and New York in particular.

03:27:57.820 | And I got involved in sponsoring some jujitsu super fights.

03:28:02.240 | And I also got involved in sponsoring some jujitsu athletes.

03:28:06.700 | And Gordon was a young part of the Donahoe Death Squad.

03:28:11.300 | I was friends with Eddie Cummings.

03:28:12.700 | I'm still friends with Eddie.

03:28:14.260 | I was friends with John, still friends with John.

03:28:17.580 | But I didn't really know Gordon.

03:28:19.260 | I actually don't know that I've still ever met.

03:28:20.760 | I don't think I've ever met Gordon.

03:28:22.620 | I've been in the same room as him.

03:28:24.380 | But there was a fight that I had sponsored

03:28:27.780 | some other fights with this particular promoter.

03:28:31.980 | And they asked me to sponsor one.

03:28:33.960 | And it didn't involve anyone from Marcello's.

03:28:37.000 | But it involved Gordon.

03:28:38.420 | He was one of the people.

03:28:39.260 | And I liked John very much.

03:28:40.540 | And I liked everybody in the Donahoe Death Squad.

03:28:42.440 | I like watching them compete.

03:28:43.620 | I thought, I think John's just brilliant.

03:28:46.020 | I mean, everyone at Marcello's has such respect for John

03:28:48.420 | and for everyone.

03:28:49.260 | And the stuff they were doing,

03:28:50.500 | like when they were the early days

03:28:52.200 | of that Donahoe Death Squad,

03:28:53.260 | like the Eddie Cummings, like his leg locks,

03:28:55.380 | like he just blew the whole game up.

03:28:57.140 | Like it just was a whole nother thing.

03:28:59.740 | It was like insane what they did, such innovation.

03:29:03.440 | And Gordon at the time, he was online.

03:29:09.340 | And I'm much older than that.

03:29:14.380 | I'm in my early 50s.

03:29:16.100 | And that's not, I guess, chronologically that much older.

03:29:18.100 | But generationally, I think it's quite a bit different.

03:29:21.220 | And Gordon was smack talking with a guy who I,

03:29:25.280 | about a guy who I was sponsor of, who I knew.

03:29:28.220 | And who I knew was a very good athlete

03:29:30.180 | and had been through difficult things in his life.

03:29:32.740 | And Gordon just said some nasty things about him.

03:29:36.580 | It falls into the category

03:29:39.700 | of totally appropriate smack talking, looking at it now.

03:29:41.940 | And looking at what Gordon became,

03:29:44.620 | which is he's someone who talks trash.

03:29:46.740 | It's like part of his brand is to talk trash.

03:29:48.980 | And I see now that that's like a Muhammad Ali thing.

03:29:51.540 | At the time, I just didn't see it as what it was.

03:29:54.460 | And although it doesn't excuse it,

03:29:57.480 | my mother was dying.

03:29:59.540 | I was not at my best.

03:30:00.980 | I was having a hard time.

03:30:03.000 | And Gordon had spoken ill of this person.

03:30:06.260 | And I got upset.

03:30:09.100 | And I reached out to John and to Tom DeBlas.

03:30:12.340 | And I said to them, "Hey,

03:30:13.380 | "can you tell this guy to knock it off?

03:30:15.020 | "Don't talk about this person who I sponsor

03:30:17.300 | "if I'm sponsoring his fight.

03:30:18.640 | "I don't even know this Gordon Ryan kid.

03:30:22.020 | "And I'm sponsoring his fight.

03:30:23.660 | "And he should say thank you.

03:30:26.020 | "Don't talk bad about a person who I financially sponsor.

03:30:28.720 | "Like that's not cool."

03:30:30.660 | And I think on Facebook, he like wrote some comments.

03:30:33.720 | And then I wrote some comments back.

03:30:35.060 | And I was incredibly obnoxious.

03:30:39.820 | And very soon after, I felt really gross.

03:30:44.820 | 'Cause I was an adult.

03:30:46.680 | And I was talking to a young person this way,

03:30:48.980 | who's on their way up,

03:30:50.380 | who's like a little older than one of my kids.

03:30:52.700 | And I just said these obnoxious things to him.

03:30:55.960 | And I felt really like, that's gross.

03:31:00.660 | And, but I'd never really thought much about it again.

03:31:05.460 | I watched his star rise and I was very,

03:31:08.300 | I mean, who is not impressed by Gordon Ryan?

03:31:10.780 | And everyone at our academy was always very,

03:31:13.160 | thrilled to see him rise.

03:31:14.420 | And I've stayed friends with John.

03:31:16.420 | And every time Gordon would have a big victory,

03:31:18.260 | I would always text John and be like,

03:31:19.740 | 'cause Gordon's victories are John's victories too.

03:31:22.700 | They have such a great bond.

03:31:24.460 | All the people in his orbit,

03:31:25.680 | like are all people that I respect and like.

03:31:28.600 | And I just would say, "Hey, listen, congratulations.

03:31:30.520 | And please pass on my congratulations to Gordon."

03:31:33.120 | And, but we don't know each other.

03:31:34.960 | I don't have his number.

03:31:35.800 | I have no way to contact him to apologize to him.

03:31:38.720 | But, if Gordon hears this, I am profoundly sorry.

03:31:43.720 | I am not, I don't say that

03:31:46.800 | 'cause I'm trying to get in your good graces.

03:31:48.400 | I don't know that we'll ever meet each other.

03:31:50.960 | But that was an unbelievably wrong,

03:31:53.860 | stupid thing to say to a young person.

03:31:56.820 | - Well, thank you for saying that.

03:31:58.420 | This warms my heart in general.

03:32:01.220 | - See, you talk to a divorce lawyer

03:32:02.260 | and it warms your heart.

03:32:03.100 | Look at that.

03:32:03.940 | - Well, speaking of which, so what,

03:32:06.460 | you're a romantic actually.

03:32:09.500 | What role, you've seen love,

03:32:12.940 | you've seen love break down completely.

03:32:15.240 | What role does love play in the human condition?

03:32:19.040 | - I mean, I think it's kind of everything, right?

03:32:21.740 | Like it's love is, romantic love,

03:32:24.580 | wars are fought for romantic love.

03:32:26.680 | Empires fall because of romantic love.

03:32:29.060 | Like it takes down kings.

03:32:32.820 | It takes down, you know, like it's,

03:32:36.620 | we're all just struggling for it.

03:32:39.740 | We're all just chasing it.

03:32:41.100 | Like we're all chasing the dragon, you know?

03:32:42.900 | It's like the rush we all are.

03:32:44.700 | So it's huge.

03:32:45.540 | You know, it's huge.

03:32:46.360 | I mean, sex and love,

03:32:50.380 | which I like to believe are in some way connected,

03:32:53.260 | and love and romance, which again,

03:32:55.140 | I like to believe are in some way connected.

03:32:57.940 | I think it's huge.

03:32:58.760 | I think it's a,

03:32:59.600 | look, I've always thought most of what men do,

03:33:05.520 | including me, we do to get laid.

03:33:09.020 | Like on some level.

03:33:12.060 | Like you want to be successful.

03:33:14.460 | Why?

03:33:15.300 | So you can have money.

03:33:16.120 | So you can have nice things so that you can attract

03:33:19.620 | attractive members of the opposite sex.

03:33:21.860 | You know, like a lot of things come down to that.

03:33:25.020 | And even for like men, you know, like red pill,

03:33:27.780 | you know, men who are like, yeah, I don't care about women.

03:33:30.380 | Well, you talk about them an awful lot.

03:33:32.460 | Like for someone that's not interested in women,

03:33:35.020 | you sure are like in the orbit of women

03:33:37.140 | who you're telling how much you don't care about women,

03:33:39.220 | which kind of feels like you're doing that

03:33:40.900 | to attract a certain kind of woman, which I get,

03:33:43.620 | you know, like more power to you.

03:33:45.380 | But like that a person who worships an idol

03:33:49.220 | and a person who destroys an idol are both idolaters.

03:33:51.820 | Yes.

03:33:52.660 | So you're, if all you're talking about

03:33:55.580 | is how you don't need women,

03:33:57.220 | you're talking about women an awful lot.

03:33:59.260 | So it's just such a splinter in people's mind,

03:34:03.820 | you know, relationships, breakups.

03:34:07.060 | And like, it's such a great equalizer.

03:34:09.600 | I mean, you're spending some time in the rarefied air now

03:34:12.220 | of like big celebrity people.

03:34:15.220 | And I remember when I started out as a lawyer,

03:34:18.020 | just doing like the regular, like the cop and the teacher

03:34:20.540 | with a 401k and they didn't have any assets.

03:34:23.660 | I remember thinking like, well,

03:34:24.500 | someday if I represent celebrities or wealthy CEOs,

03:34:28.980 | like it'll be different.

03:34:30.460 | They'll be like smarter.

03:34:31.740 | They'll be like different.

03:34:32.900 | It's just the same weird petty shit,

03:34:36.020 | the same infidelity, the same.

03:34:38.460 | The same kind of insecurities, the same kind of jealousy,

03:34:41.860 | the same kind of fights.

03:34:43.500 | It all.

03:34:44.580 | It's all the same.

03:34:46.180 | But it is, it's like,

03:34:47.540 | and it's all the same insecurity, sadness.

03:34:51.940 | It's the same like desire to be validated,

03:34:55.820 | like mommy issues, daddy issues, like intimacy issues,

03:35:00.060 | you know, and it's all the same stuff.

03:35:01.840 | And just because you're really good at other things,

03:35:06.840 | like I've represented professional athletes

03:35:09.460 | who are phenomenal, world-class, you know,

03:35:13.100 | doctors, business people, and they suck at relationships.

03:35:18.060 | No better than like anybody else.

03:35:20.860 | Like there's no, you know,

03:35:22.660 | there's no connection between the skills

03:35:25.020 | that made you a good entrepreneur

03:35:26.500 | and the skills that made you a good, you know,

03:35:28.740 | spouse or partner.

03:35:29.660 | I'm sure there's some overlap,

03:35:30.820 | like patience is good

03:35:32.060 | and thinking strategically is probably good.

03:35:34.620 | But I'm just humbled by how we're called to it still.

03:35:39.300 | Like it's so, and even when we lose

03:35:41.900 | and even when like our greatest pains

03:35:43.780 | were caused by our desire to love

03:35:45.760 | and be loved in a romantic sense,

03:35:47.900 | we just keep putting the money on the table and playing.

03:35:51.700 | Like we won't just quit, we just keep going, you know?

03:35:54.820 | And-- - A little mess of it

03:35:55.700 | is worth it.

03:35:56.660 | - I mean, I guess so.

03:35:58.980 | Like it's calling us.

03:36:01.220 | I don't know if it's worth it or not.

03:36:02.540 | That's a value judgment, right?

03:36:03.720 | But we don't stop.

03:36:07.140 | I don't know a lot of people that they played the hand,

03:36:11.020 | they lost and they went,

03:36:11.860 | "Well, no more of that game for me."

03:36:14.020 | Like, I'm not a good poker player,

03:36:15.580 | I'm not playing poker anymore.

03:36:16.820 | Like I know people who've done that.

03:36:18.580 | I know people that are like, "Listen, I don't drink.

03:36:20.460 | "Like, you know, I'm allergic.

03:36:21.540 | "I break out in handcuffs and hospital bills.

03:36:23.300 | "Like I'm not drinking anymore."

03:36:25.300 | But I don't know people that are like,

03:36:26.760 | "Man, that relationship, I screwed that up

03:36:30.380 | "or I got screwed on that one.

03:36:31.640 | "I'm not doing that anymore."

03:36:33.340 | You can say that, everybody says that.

03:36:35.260 | "I'm through with love, you know, I'm done."

03:36:37.680 | They're not, they keep going.

03:36:39.100 | They'll go up again.

03:36:40.880 | - Never gonna fall in love again.

03:36:43.620 | And then a few weeks later.

03:36:46.220 | - Yeah, I got job security, man.

03:36:48.020 | I got job security.

03:36:49.420 | People are not gonna stop walking down that aisle.

03:36:52.620 | They are not gonna stop having kids

03:36:55.620 | with people that they probably should have thought through

03:36:57.940 | whether they would have kids with that person or not.

03:37:00.300 | - But I'm glad they are.

03:37:01.300 | I'm glad they're taking that leap.

03:37:02.740 | I'm glad they're taking that risk.

03:37:04.840 | It's this whole beautiful mess that we're all a part of.

03:37:07.900 | It's like taking that risk,

03:37:10.420 | taking that leap of vulnerabilities

03:37:12.500 | of what this whole thing is about.

03:37:13.780 | - Yeah, and what a danger if we didn't, you know?

03:37:16.280 | Like every, you hear about people like Alexander Hamilton

03:37:21.280 | or you hear about people who like,

03:37:25.060 | they were born of circumstances that like,

03:37:28.800 | these two people should never have had a kid.

03:37:31.820 | And then they did.

03:37:32.780 | And that kid changes the world, you know?

03:37:35.260 | And like moves the dial forward.

03:37:37.900 | What a great mistake.

03:37:41.300 | Like what a great, you can't ever say it's a mistake.

03:37:44.020 | Like what an amazing thing that happened.

03:37:46.660 | And I think that that's one of the things I like

03:37:49.760 | about divorce as a practice

03:37:51.900 | and as almost looking at it like a spiritual practice.

03:37:54.420 | I think you just don't know what is a blessing,

03:37:59.420 | right, in the world.

03:38:00.740 | Like you just don't know.

03:38:01.820 | Like I, my father, I've spoken about this before publicly

03:38:06.820 | and he does frequently.

03:38:08.460 | My father's an alcoholic.

03:38:09.900 | My father's been in recovery now for seven years, I think.

03:38:12.980 | Yeah, but he was a bad alcoholic,

03:38:15.940 | Vietnam veteran my whole life

03:38:18.100 | and only got sober, you know, when I was in my 40s.

03:38:21.280 | And a lot of the personality characteristics I have

03:38:27.380 | are consistent with those of adult children of alcoholics,

03:38:31.260 | you know, desire for control and control issues,

03:38:34.460 | you know, a lot of those things.

03:38:37.440 | And I love my life.

03:38:40.620 | Like I'm having a great time.

03:38:41.940 | If I died tomorrow, man, I did more, learned more,

03:38:45.180 | earned more, loved more than I ever dreamed.

03:38:49.300 | And so I'm so glad my dad was an alcoholic.

03:38:53.900 | And if you said to me, how do you raise kids?

03:38:56.560 | Like I wouldn't say like,

03:38:57.400 | well, you definitely wanna be an alcoholic

03:38:59.180 | 'cause like your kid's getting a lot of really good

03:39:01.460 | discipline lessons from that experience.

03:39:03.180 | Like, no, like I wouldn't, you know,

03:39:05.300 | I wouldn't want that for, but it's born,

03:39:08.980 | like all these wonderful things

03:39:10.820 | were born of this awful situation.

03:39:13.340 | So I think divorce is the same thing.

03:39:15.460 | Like we make these mistakes, right?

03:39:18.340 | But they're not really, you know,

03:39:20.220 | I often have to say to my clients when they're like,

03:39:22.260 | oh, I wish I'd never married this person.

03:39:23.780 | I'm like, you love your kids, right?

03:39:25.620 | Like your kids are half that person.

03:39:29.100 | They would not be the organism they are

03:39:32.820 | without that person's DNA.

03:39:35.460 | So you can't regret being with that person

03:39:39.800 | if you love your kids.

03:39:41.400 | Like if you love your kids,

03:39:42.540 | those kids don't exist without that person.

03:39:44.940 | And I don't know how we refocus on that.

03:39:49.100 | You know, I don't know, maybe we give anyone

03:39:51.140 | going through a divorce, I've actually had a theory,

03:39:54.340 | which I've not said out loud, but I'll say it to you

03:39:56.780 | 'cause it's just us talking.

03:39:58.740 | I think if we could figure out a way

03:40:03.740 | to take a divorcing couple

03:40:05.940 | that is interested in potentially mediating

03:40:10.740 | and put them in a setting

03:40:13.540 | where we could give them both psilocybin,

03:40:16.500 | like a good dose, like two and a half, three grams,

03:40:19.980 | and have them do individual sessions with, you know,

03:40:24.100 | controlled setting with a guide, right?

03:40:28.760 | And have them sort of do that inner work

03:40:31.720 | and then have them do some kind of a session together

03:40:36.040 | after they've had that experience,

03:40:37.640 | that psychedelic experience.

03:40:39.280 | I actually think you could do transformative divorce work

03:40:42.840 | because I have found myself and certainly the many people

03:40:46.240 | that I've talked to who've had psilocybin experiences

03:40:50.040 | and in particular, but any psychedelic experience,

03:40:52.360 | many of the empathogens, right?

03:40:56.600 | Or even like MDMA, you know, like MDMA,

03:40:59.040 | which is an empathogen.

03:41:01.520 | If we brought that space

03:41:04.280 | and the divorce and conflict resolution space together,

03:41:08.400 | that sort of psychopharmacological intervention on empathy,

03:41:13.400 | one's empathy receptors or one's connectivity,

03:41:17.880 | I think that could be radically transforming.

03:41:21.200 | It would be logistically an absolute nightmare.

03:41:23.280 | It would never get done from a legal standpoint,

03:41:25.840 | but man, like, I think sometimes like that,

03:41:30.360 | because I think the more that you can bring people

03:41:35.360 | to the awareness of connection

03:41:39.360 | that comes from many people's psychedelic experiences,

03:41:44.000 | I think they could then extrapolate that

03:41:46.160 | into their understanding of the conflict

03:41:49.640 | and disconnect they're having with their partner.

03:41:52.440 | - So really lean into the, like use this brink of divorce

03:41:57.440 | as a kind of catalyst for doing a lot of soul searching,

03:42:01.760 | a lot of growth together.

03:42:03.480 | - That was what appealed to me about it.

03:42:05.120 | I mean, before I started doing it,

03:42:07.040 | is it was this idea that this is a opportunity

03:42:10.280 | for radical reinvention.

03:42:14.880 | Like it was an opportunity for people to say,

03:42:18.160 | okay, now what?

03:42:19.520 | Like, I didn't expect that, now what?

03:42:21.720 | And it was to be part of the architecture of that.

03:42:24.440 | Like, I didn't look at it like

03:42:25.920 | I'm helping demolish the building.

03:42:28.520 | It was like, I'm tearing down the building

03:42:30.840 | so we can build the new one,

03:42:33.080 | which I hope is filled with joy and abundance

03:42:35.360 | and peace and love and real love, real satisfaction.

03:42:38.560 | Like my ex-wife is married for over a decade now

03:42:43.560 | to a phenomenal guy who is perfect for her.

03:42:47.960 | And he's nothing like me, by the way.

03:42:50.840 | Like if you met him and you met both of us,

03:42:54.320 | you'd go, well, no one could love both of these guys.

03:42:57.600 | 'Cause like, if you like this flavor,

03:42:59.280 | you wouldn't like this flavor.

03:43:00.480 | Like I am impatient, fast talking, like skip to the end,

03:43:04.200 | we gotta land this plane, come on.

03:43:05.560 | And he's like, he's therapist, he's chill,

03:43:08.960 | he's like patient and they're perfect together.

03:43:12.520 | And I can say that as someone who loves her and loved her,

03:43:15.080 | you know, and knows her or knew her.

03:43:17.520 | And I think if we can, you know,

03:43:22.000 | if we can radically view honestly,

03:43:25.960 | without jealousy, without the sense of like,

03:43:30.640 | look at it and just go, yeah, yeah, okay.

03:43:32.560 | Like this is the love this person needed.

03:43:35.480 | Like that doesn't mean my love sucks,

03:43:37.600 | just means it wasn't the right one for this person.

03:43:39.560 | You know, like there's someone,

03:43:41.000 | there's a lid for every pot, you know?

03:43:43.040 | Like she found her lid, I want her to find her lid,

03:43:45.280 | that's good, you know?

03:43:46.880 | - And there's billions of pots out there

03:43:48.760 | and we just need to match them with the proper lid.

03:43:50.880 | - Yeah, not hit each other over the head

03:43:52.400 | with them all day long.

03:43:53.360 | - Yeah, man, this is such a romantic few hours

03:43:56.720 | we've got to spend together.

03:43:58.120 | And there's even a candle burning over there.

03:44:00.720 | - Is there? Oh, that's lovely.

03:44:02.080 | - All right, brother, thanks so much, James.

03:44:03.280 | - Thank you, thanks for having me.

03:44:05.080 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

03:44:06.520 | with James Sexton.

03:44:07.680 | To support this podcast,

03:44:08.760 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

03:44:11.240 | And now let me leave you with some words from Rumi.

03:44:15.080 | Your task is not to seek for love,

03:44:17.760 | but merely to seek and find all the barriers

03:44:21.120 | within yourself that you have built against it.

03:44:24.920 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

03:44:27.880 | (upbeat music)

03:44:30.460 | (upbeat music)

03:44:33.040 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

James Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #396

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