back to indexJames Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #396
Chapters
0:0 Introduction
2:34 Why marriages fail
24:5 Sex and fetishes
33:22 Breakups
59:9 Johnny Depp and Amber Heard
79:9 Complicated divorce cases
85:55 Cheating with the nanny
88:12 Relationship advice
96:54 Cost of divorce
118:45 Prenups
133:6 Cheating
140:50 Open marriages and threesomes
153:38 Sex and fighting
178:33 Kevin Costner's divorce
188:17 Lying
195:45 Productivity
203:39 Jiu Jitsu
212:11 Sex, love, and marriage
00:00:00.000 |
we have been encouraged culturally to criticize 00:00:03.400 |
people we're in long-term relationships with. 00:00:09.360 |
you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful. 00:00:11.520 |
But every trope out there in every form of popular media 00:00:15.120 |
is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband 00:00:18.600 |
oh, there's loathsome Harpy that castrated me. 00:00:21.680 |
As if like people are just passive players in their lives. 00:00:25.360 |
And I think that is an incredibly toxic message 00:00:30.960 |
that this is how we should be relating to our partner. 00:00:40.240 |
are where people are just cheering for their partner, 00:00:51.600 |
Like man, you could take sides against anybody, 00:00:54.840 |
but take sides against their partner, you're going down. 00:00:58.920 |
Like, and that, when you see a couple that has that, 00:01:07.040 |
But I think that comes from having like a steadfast, 00:01:17.880 |
Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me. 00:01:23.600 |
because I think we're just so criticized by the world. 00:01:30.000 |
that having a partner who no matter what is like, 00:01:39.080 |
Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots. 00:01:54.720 |
- The following is a conversation with James Sexton, 00:01:57.280 |
divorce attorney and author of "How to Stay in Love, 00:02:00.240 |
A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together." 00:02:03.080 |
As a trial lawyer, James for over two decades 00:02:13.520 |
of how relationships fail and how they can succeed. 00:02:17.120 |
And bigger than that, the role of love and pain 00:02:20.760 |
in this whole messy rollercoaster ride we call life. 00:02:33.960 |
What is the most common reason that marriages fail? 00:02:38.200 |
- That's a great question, but it's a question 00:02:40.440 |
that everybody wants there to be a simple answer. 00:02:48.720 |
But the reality is, I think it's a lot of little things. 00:03:01.600 |
That's the bigger and I think more important question 00:03:04.320 |
because like Tom Wolfe said about bankruptcy, 00:03:09.880 |
Disconnection happens very slowly and then all at once. 00:03:25.680 |
was even something you were thinking about doing 00:03:27.920 |
or that you would think about and then cross the line 00:03:38.320 |
like looking backwards for every individual case 00:03:40.840 |
where the disconnection began and how it evolved? 00:03:50.880 |
What did you do and what did the other person do? 00:03:54.680 |
And see, the interesting thing about being a divorce lawyer 00:04:02.160 |
So I'm telling, it's full context storytelling, 00:04:28.520 |
But only if you were reverse engineering a relationship 00:04:41.000 |
that moved the dial in these different directions. 00:04:50.320 |
We don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish. 00:04:52.800 |
Like if you're in it, I don't think you see it clearly. 00:04:57.480 |
whose job is to really drill down on the facts 00:05:01.700 |
and figure out what's going on in this story, 00:05:06.320 |
So I have to think a lot about my own arguments, 00:05:08.920 |
what's the other lawyer's argument going to be, 00:05:12.960 |
So I really have been forced to look at both sides 00:05:17.600 |
for so many years, so deeply in relationships 00:05:28.400 |
or a few big things that caused this connection, 00:05:34.160 |
granola and blowjobs, but those seem to be stories 00:05:39.880 |
Maybe that story should be explained, or maybe not. 00:05:53.120 |
I think the story that would come up is a pretty good one. 00:05:55.380 |
But that's a story you tell about when you first knew 00:06:03.040 |
is when he stopped buying my favorite granola 00:06:09.200 |
- I would say when it's reached like a critical mass. 00:06:16.240 |
when she said, "Yeah, I used to give him blowjobs." 00:06:39.480 |
So I don't think she had any negative intentions there. 00:06:58.320 |
I mean, anyone who's been in a long-term relationship, 00:07:05.320 |
what does this person do that makes me feel loved? 00:07:17.320 |
Remember, I had a difficult chapter with one of my sons, 00:07:36.120 |
"Not just do you know it intellectually, do you feel it?" 00:07:45.640 |
And sometimes it's the weirdest, silliest things 00:07:50.800 |
They are the person who's showing us that they love us 00:07:56.400 |
Like, if you said, "Why does this person love you?" 00:07:59.800 |
They wouldn't say, "Oh, 'cause I always make sure 00:08:09.400 |
Or, "I always, like, again, I buy the granola 00:08:22.120 |
Yes, they're small things, but they're not small. 00:08:29.080 |
- Do you think it's good to communicate that stuff? 00:08:33.840 |
- It takes away some of the power of it, right? 00:08:36.000 |
- When you point it out, then the person realizes, 00:08:41.840 |
So, yes, there becomes a deliberateness to it, 00:09:00.320 |
"Hey, you used to do this and you've stopped. 00:09:07.640 |
Like, she said, she didn't say anything about that, 00:09:15.320 |
"This is starting, let's talk about it while it's starting." 00:09:24.600 |
the financial impropriety, the substance use disorder, 00:09:33.120 |
And the answer is, "Quite a while ago, with the granola." 00:09:46.400 |
'Cause that little something is probably a kernel 00:10:01.120 |
where just nothing is, just cynicism everywhere, 00:10:10.160 |
in some other deeper current that's actually building up. 00:10:16.280 |
wants to understand the currents of their partner. 00:10:22.840 |
And look, if I'm the one you need to take it out on, 00:10:28.720 |
If you're hormonal, if you're frustrated at work, 00:10:33.840 |
to have a little bit of that interaction in a relationship. 00:10:38.520 |
But I do think it's so easy to just say to people, 00:10:44.680 |
But it really is about fearless kinds of communication. 00:10:49.400 |
It's about really honestly saying to somebody, 00:11:01.000 |
I mean, one of the things I'm very caught up on 00:11:12.480 |
to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with. 00:11:17.120 |
New relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, 00:11:20.080 |
you're allowed to just, "Oh, they're wonderful." 00:11:22.240 |
But every trope out there in every form of popular media 00:11:25.840 |
is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband 00:11:29.200 |
"Oh, this loathsome harpy that castrated me." 00:11:32.400 |
As if people are just passive players in their lives. 00:11:36.080 |
And I think that is an incredibly toxic message 00:11:41.680 |
that this is how we should be relating to our partner. 00:11:50.960 |
are where people are just cheering for their partner, 00:11:59.520 |
Like they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe. 00:12:02.320 |
Like man, you could take sides against anybody, 00:12:05.520 |
but take sides against their partner, you're going down." 00:12:09.560 |
Like, and that, when you see a couple that has that, 00:12:17.680 |
But I think that comes from having like a steadfast, 00:12:28.480 |
Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me." 00:12:34.200 |
because I think we're just so criticized by the world. 00:12:40.600 |
that having a partner who no matter what is like, 00:12:49.680 |
Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots. 00:13:07.000 |
when you look at a couple and one is talking, 00:13:16.520 |
like, "What do you think about the war in Ukraine?" 00:13:19.480 |
or something, and then the partner is talking, 00:13:33.880 |
not thinking about how's the audience going to take that, 00:13:38.000 |
"Goddamn, I'm so lucky to be with this smart motherfucker." 00:13:44.440 |
- And they could be saying the dumbest shit ever. 00:13:46.000 |
- There's a scene in the movie "True Romance." 00:13:50.240 |
Gary Oldman scene's like the greatest scene ever done 00:13:55.020 |
But there's a scene in it where she holds up a sign 00:13:58.040 |
to Christian Slater, and it says, "You're so cool." 00:14:05.840 |
I've always, I think I say it somewhere in the book 00:14:12.880 |
everybody's looking at the bride, it's her show. 00:14:15.800 |
it's the first glimpse everybody gets of the bride. 00:14:20.160 |
I always look at the groom looking at the bride. 00:14:22.840 |
Because there's this, like, to me, that's every, 00:14:29.720 |
this, 'cause this is the first time he's seeing her 00:14:39.160 |
And I always look at him, 'cause I always think to myself, 00:14:45.720 |
that's like this feeling of like, "Holy, yeah, wow, okay." 00:14:48.600 |
Like, that's, everyone's looking at her and she's mine. 00:14:51.600 |
And she's coming up here and we're getting married. 00:14:53.280 |
And I feel like, yeah, like that kind of adoration. 00:14:58.280 |
Like, I think that's the look we're describing 00:15:00.240 |
is like adoration, like that the words coming 00:15:09.520 |
- Seeing the good stuff, like with "True Romance," 00:15:17.520 |
like essentially being a fake Elvis with shades. 00:15:25.360 |
But from her perspective and from any perspective 00:15:28.320 |
you could take on him is this is the baddest motherfucker 00:15:33.040 |
Like, he's willing to do those things for me, 00:15:35.240 |
but not like, it's almost like an epic heroic figure. 00:15:51.400 |
to this whole thing, this whole couple thing, 00:15:56.080 |
Like, I don't understand this idea of, you know, 00:16:04.360 |
We were miserable for 47 of them, but we hung in there. 00:16:19.440 |
Like, congratulations, you took the concept of monogamy 00:16:25.680 |
are absolutely not gonna enjoy, but you hung in there. 00:16:29.280 |
And I understand there's religious perspectives 00:16:32.600 |
but I have a real chicken or the egg problem with that. 00:16:36.480 |
how do we sell this incredibly stupid concept 00:16:41.640 |
I know, we'll tell them God says you have to. 00:16:48.120 |
I really, 'cause when you see a successful marriage 00:16:57.360 |
that really love each other and cheer for each other 00:16:59.880 |
in that way and like hang on each other's words that way 00:17:03.600 |
and like are just in each other's corner that way. 00:17:12.920 |
It's like, if you, you know, the first time I've, 00:17:16.720 |
I've thought I'd eaten a lot of barbecue in my life. 00:17:24.280 |
I was like, okay, I've never had barbecue before. 00:17:38.880 |
you go, oh yeah, this other thing's not gonna do it. 00:17:41.520 |
- Do you think that's a daily deliberate choice 00:17:46.440 |
'Cause it feels like a very easy to do deliberate step. 00:18:04.840 |
I think approaching life that way is a conscious choice. 00:18:07.800 |
Approaching any relationship that way is a conscious choice. 00:18:16.560 |
and thinking about what's going on in their life, 00:18:19.420 |
that they're doing that or what's happening with them. 00:18:40.680 |
Like you never have someone look at their dog 00:18:55.920 |
They're like, oh my God, this is like my dog. 00:18:58.760 |
Like the smell of the dog is like, this is my dog's smell. 00:19:02.680 |
You're like, that's my stupid dog that does stupid things. 00:19:05.760 |
And it's not like that has to be a conscious, 00:19:11.800 |
You know, and so, and your children, like people's children. 00:19:21.920 |
Like to you, the sound of your kids shrieking is like, 00:19:42.000 |
that's the sound of that kid having a great time and good. 00:19:48.560 |
For that parent, I don't think it has to be conscious. 00:19:53.920 |
if it didn't have to be a conscious practice. 00:19:57.000 |
But I wonder if like anything in meditation or mindfulness, 00:20:01.120 |
it's a matter of exercising that way of seeing. 00:20:19.440 |
And by the way, it's easier to make it a conscious practice 00:20:28.680 |
Like the, I mean, that's what's so amazing about marriage 00:20:32.360 |
is there's like almost 8 billion people in the world 00:20:46.680 |
So that's the time to get into this mindfulness, 00:20:51.040 |
Not once it's like the wheels are starting to come off. 00:20:54.120 |
It's like gaining a bunch of weight and then saying, 00:20:59.480 |
like right away, just see everything is beautiful. 00:21:04.520 |
When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, 00:21:14.480 |
of course you could end up in toxic relationships that way, 00:21:22.160 |
Might as well really go all in on relationships. 00:21:29.560 |
"We played a game you couldn't win to the utmost." 00:21:44.480 |
because you are accepting that you're going to lose it. 00:21:52.760 |
and you've just resigned yourself to unbelievable pain 00:22:29.880 |
Like, yeah, I love this Elvis pretending to be weirdo. 00:22:33.120 |
I love this former sex worker who's like, whatever. 00:22:41.000 |
Don't worry about what everybody else is doing 00:22:44.160 |
Like we're in such, I mean, it's not to me surprising 00:22:52.800 |
people's satisfaction with their relationships 00:22:54.840 |
and the divorce rate is following the same trend 00:23:03.480 |
You know, well, how much sex is everyone else having? 00:23:07.960 |
about how much sex you're having are the two people. 00:23:09.840 |
If the two people are happy in the relationship, great. 00:23:12.920 |
It doesn't matter what everybody else is doing. 00:23:14.640 |
- Yeah, there should be an element to great relationships 00:23:17.040 |
and great friendships of like, fuck the world. 00:23:21.880 |
And that's what I mean when I say that thick as thieves, 00:23:32.440 |
even when it comes to sex or things like that, 00:23:34.840 |
like if you can't be candid with your partner 00:23:45.280 |
I mean, because you're gonna either go without 00:23:50.000 |
is a particularly healthy option or helpful option. 00:24:11.360 |
because I don't know anything about foot fetishes. 00:24:16.200 |
but like there's nothing sexual about feet to me at all. 00:24:21.200 |
but I mean, listen, if people like things, it's good. 00:24:23.960 |
But yeah, I have had clients that have odd fetishes 00:24:28.960 |
or sexual proclivities or things they wanna do, 00:24:33.080 |
and they don't share it with their partner at all. 00:24:37.400 |
because they try to go without it and that doesn't work. 00:24:39.640 |
So they try to find some other outlet for it. 00:24:45.880 |
And of course, everybody likes to have like a, 00:24:50.120 |
So when you say, well, why'd you guys get divorced? 00:24:53.680 |
and he was on these message boards like meeting people. 00:25:03.520 |
But I also think too, like, listen, if you got a partner, 00:25:06.760 |
I mean, we all do stuff that we're not super into 00:25:12.560 |
Like, do you really wanna go see that chick flick? 00:25:17.160 |
Do you really wanna go to her cousin's wedding? 00:25:18.760 |
No, but you know, part of being in a relationship is, 00:25:22.080 |
I'm gonna pretend this song's a good song, you know, 00:25:26.920 |
And I think, I just don't know, we've turned sex, 00:25:30.400 |
I mean, sex has been so politicized in recent years. 00:25:36.680 |
where we can't just, I don't know, I'm not into feet, 00:25:46.400 |
I'd be like, all right, I can pretend I'm into that. 00:25:51.520 |
I'm not gonna be able to make it a centerpiece 00:25:54.840 |
yeah, I can pretend I'm into feet if you want. 00:26:06.480 |
- But if I was into like furries, for example, 00:26:09.560 |
I don't know how I would initiate the conversation 00:26:15.160 |
- But frame the question the other direction. 00:26:37.080 |
is a particularly palatable or easy proposition. 00:26:51.200 |
- I don't think I've ever met someone who went, 00:26:58.080 |
I'm really glad I stayed in the closet as long as I did. 00:27:04.240 |
It's a question of how long can you hold it off? 00:27:08.200 |
- Like, I know gay men who stayed in the closet 00:27:13.760 |
and then they had a successful second chapter as a gay man. 00:27:23.720 |
No, because they were married, they had kids, 00:27:25.760 |
like, they had experiences they're glad they had. 00:27:31.720 |
in their 20s and 30s who's gay be, stay in the closet, 00:27:34.440 |
'cause then you can have a wife and some kids, 00:27:35.960 |
and then you can come out when you're 50 or 60 00:27:43.400 |
- As you were talking, I'm trying to think of, 00:27:49.960 |
So I usually try to make sure there's nothing to hide, 00:27:52.560 |
but I was trying to come up with a counter example for you 00:27:59.160 |
Well, I mean, there could be, like, past relationships, 00:28:07.320 |
maybe you wanna put that to the side when you're having a-- 00:28:11.920 |
there's a difference between being honest about something 00:28:19.160 |
- You know, like, I think we all do this with lovers. 00:28:22.520 |
Like, any of us who've been in more than one relationship, 00:28:29.280 |
be like, "That was the third best sex I've ever had." 00:28:32.000 |
You know, like, that's, it's just indelicate, it's rude. 00:28:43.440 |
But I think if you were, we're using the furry example, 00:28:52.920 |
that is anything other than a passing thought, 00:28:55.320 |
like, it's something that you just keep coming back to, 00:29:04.920 |
I mean, I would say it's probably out of fear. 00:29:07.120 |
I'm not a psychologist, but probably out of fear. 00:29:11.960 |
okay, well, now, see, I genuinely believe that this, 00:29:16.680 |
you know, I'm very conflicted in my religious faith, 00:29:25.440 |
but I don't know that I believe in the devil. 00:29:29.520 |
But if there was a devil, I think his principal function 00:29:33.320 |
would be to convince us that we are so bestial 00:29:41.120 |
and that we should just lean into the awfulness. 00:29:43.640 |
And I know the greatest low points of my life came 00:29:48.640 |
whenever I just went, you know what, I'm just awful, 00:30:00.440 |
when you push down parts of yourself, like your sexuality, 00:30:16.440 |
the person who's supposed to be your, you know, 00:30:36.560 |
And so if you know you're super into furries, 00:30:47.800 |
you will never feel that love, because you know, 00:30:50.800 |
yeah, that's not true, though, she doesn't know, 00:30:52.720 |
she doesn't know that actually I'm not really satisfied, 00:30:57.160 |
that I know I can't even tell her 'cause I'm so ashamed. 00:31:00.000 |
Like that doesn't feel like a good option to me. 00:31:15.160 |
because the person I'm talking to is a jujitsu person, but-- 00:31:26.760 |
and I am like a seven-year brown belt now, so-- 00:31:32.200 |
- Well, and also I am, you know, late middle-aged, 00:31:43.900 |
where there's so many unbelievably talented people, 00:31:47.920 |
you should just be wearing a blue belt all the time. 00:31:53.640 |
and as most people who practice jujitsu know, 00:31:56.260 |
you start to sort of see jujitsu in everything. 00:32:06.880 |
You have to, everything you do creates a vulnerability. 00:32:14.240 |
creates opportunity and creates vulnerability. 00:32:16.800 |
And so you have to be willing to create vulnerabilities 00:32:29.220 |
You know, like you're just sitting in that car 00:32:36.120 |
- Yeah, I mean, that's the way I see love and relationships, 00:32:38.240 |
is you should take that leap of vulnerability, 00:32:41.160 |
give the other person the option to destroy you. 00:32:45.560 |
And that's the part that I think is hard for everyone, 00:32:53.280 |
But that's what I mean even when I said about 00:32:57.200 |
Like, loving anything is tremendously courageous 00:33:07.680 |
If you're not scared, you know, it's not brave, 00:33:14.920 |
when you're afraid and you do the thing anyway. 00:33:21.960 |
Like, you know, being, you know, in the jiu-jitsu community, 00:33:27.240 |
like incredibly tough people, like physically tough people, 00:33:32.320 |
But, you know, I've seen some of those people taken down 00:33:42.640 |
but they are taken apart by a woman in their life. 00:33:48.680 |
who like, it really is shocking how much leverage 00:34:00.920 |
how much we really are ever trained to think about it. 00:34:08.240 |
So much of literature and art is an idealized version of it. 00:34:48.000 |
I always kind of am saddened, like deeply saddened, 00:35:12.320 |
like in the courtroom at the negotiating table, 00:35:23.560 |
I'm trying to be much more emotionally attuned with them. 00:35:36.440 |
I, but I do believe when I'm behind closed doors with people, 00:35:43.320 |
is gonna be how you're gonna remember the whole thing. 00:35:54.280 |
Like, well, the first hour in 45 was great, you know? 00:35:57.400 |
But you walk out with this bad taste in your mouth. 00:36:04.880 |
of how easily people forget that they loved each other. 00:36:09.280 |
And I'm amazed, because by the time I meet them, 00:36:35.640 |
Like, every woman I ever had a relationship with, 00:36:43.720 |
I think of, I try to think about the greatest hits. 00:36:46.920 |
I try to think about the moments that were wonderful, 00:36:51.720 |
and like, there was joy and there was connection. 00:37:00.480 |
that if you don't learn to find joy in the snow, 00:37:17.320 |
I am making a choice as to how I will remember you. 00:37:30.080 |
that's, you know, it seems like they got in a fight 00:37:33.600 |
And most people, when they talk about how they met, 00:37:38.080 |
They both, and the other person looking at them, 00:37:46.280 |
And when this person was a choice, not a default, 00:37:54.240 |
not the, of course you're bringing her, it's your wife. 00:37:57.480 |
Like it was still, hey, there's like, you know, 00:38:02.000 |
three and a half billion women and I'm picking you. 00:38:08.040 |
And I don't know why when a relationship ends, 00:38:14.040 |
A lesson I learned when my mother passed away of a very, 00:38:17.760 |
she had a two year terrible battle with cancer 00:38:29.360 |
was that this is how I would remember my mother 00:38:39.200 |
in the last months where she was withered away to nothing 00:38:43.760 |
And I learned over time that memory is very kind, 00:38:57.600 |
Some of that is I like to look at photos of that. 00:39:00.280 |
But some of it is just how I think memory works. 00:39:03.400 |
And I don't know why we don't apply that to relationships. 00:39:08.400 |
And I think part of it is because we have this binary view 00:39:19.000 |
or like in short succession, or it was wrong, it was awful. 00:39:23.840 |
And I don't understand why that would have to be 00:39:28.280 |
I think we could look at relationships like what they are, 00:39:41.840 |
none of them would happen without the prior ones. 00:39:55.400 |
that we've put on top of it culturally for some reason. 00:40:01.040 |
I think memory can also, I think it is a deliberate choice 00:40:23.080 |
You know, in relationships, betrayal can do that, right? 00:40:53.880 |
by how long the hurt and anger of betrayal can reverberate. 00:40:58.880 |
I have clients who were four years, five years past 00:41:08.440 |
when the divorce ended, the cheating was discovered 00:41:11.240 |
and they're as angry as they were the day they found out. 00:41:18.960 |
Because I also have clients that they like look back on it 00:41:27.880 |
Like we were, you know, we didn't do the best 00:41:34.560 |
there should be stars for wars like ours, you know? 00:41:45.800 |
and there are worse things in the world to be fools for. 00:42:04.680 |
and I don't wanna blame the victim of infidelity, 00:42:08.640 |
but was the relationship really where it needed to be? 00:42:12.200 |
Like were you truly the most just dutiful spouse 00:42:19.680 |
Again, we've established in the granola story 00:42:22.240 |
that people can sometimes with good intentions 00:42:28.520 |
or their partner isn't communicating them the right way 00:42:32.480 |
But I've rarely seen very happy, content couples 00:42:46.360 |
'Cause I represent the cheater and I represent the cheated. 00:42:53.560 |
and I represent perpetrator of domestic violence. 00:42:55.360 |
I represent the person with the substance use disorder, 00:42:58.600 |
So I don't get to choose the white or the black hat. 00:43:04.360 |
And it forces me to put myself into their story 00:43:18.000 |
to represent people in those kinds of proceedings, 00:43:32.560 |
and where they actually end up are different. 00:43:34.800 |
- Yeah, I think there's some sense in still remembering 00:43:56.280 |
that should give stars for those kind of wars 00:43:58.440 |
that we fought and just kind of be able to laugh at it all. 00:44:06.840 |
I mean, like I don't, you know, I think it's funny. 00:44:13.120 |
but you know, as a man, like there's nothing funnier 00:44:23.520 |
most powerful person in the world, they jerk off. 00:44:26.800 |
You know, the most powerful man in the world jerks off. 00:44:30.480 |
I mean, you probably know them, so you could ask, but. 00:44:32.640 |
And that moment where you just, you come and you go, 00:44:37.360 |
Like what the, now I gotta wipe that, like, oh, good Lord. 00:44:40.480 |
And there's this feeling of, but a second ago, 00:44:47.040 |
But there's this moment, this satori, you know, 00:44:51.040 |
where you just go, oh, like, what, this is so silly. 00:45:12.040 |
is dramatic readings aloud of people's infidelity exchanges 00:45:22.600 |
'Cause people have to go through like all kinds of gymnastics 00:45:25.240 |
to be able to meet and have sex in weird places. 00:45:31.200 |
and you're reading these texts and you kind of go like, 00:45:42.600 |
or even their spouse, like even their spouse, you know, 00:45:52.400 |
I have a, I have a, I'll remain totally nameless. 00:45:55.600 |
I have a very powerful, wealthy, famous former client 00:46:07.240 |
is if you have to ask if you have a weird dick, 00:46:09.920 |
'Cause I've owned one and I've never thought, 00:46:12.680 |
But I, the fact that you're having this discussion, 00:46:27.240 |
You know, it really is something that we just, 00:46:36.160 |
I don't think that even betrayal, like I said, 00:46:44.280 |
I mean, I think what we don't often do with ourselves 00:46:55.040 |
Just looking at what I searched for like 10 years ago, 15. 00:47:12.520 |
- Right, why did the Karate Kid 3 pop in my head? 00:47:21.440 |
- Why is, and then mother, and then you're like-- 00:47:35.120 |
It's like looking at the Google search history 00:47:44.280 |
And now you wanna understand why you did what you did, 00:47:49.520 |
she did what she did, and why the two of you, 00:47:51.920 |
how you impacted each other and interacted with each other. 00:48:03.480 |
that resulted in whoever you're cheating with? 00:48:14.280 |
whether it's infidelity or, you know, it doesn't matter. 00:48:16.840 |
There's no good spouse bonus or bad spouse penalty. 00:48:34.400 |
That's what the legal name for a ex, you know, 00:48:36.400 |
for a boyfriend or girlfriend in the marriage. 00:48:43.640 |
but we call the paramour, yeah, the paramour. 00:48:46.320 |
And the, you know, sometimes we have to prove 00:48:58.520 |
that should be considered dissipation of marital assets. 00:49:00.560 |
So if you go out to dinner with your brother, 00:49:04.880 |
But if you bought your paramour a Tiffany bracelet, 00:49:08.240 |
that would be a dissipation of marital assets 00:49:09.880 |
and the person's entitled to a credit back for that 00:49:12.000 |
from what was taken out of the marital estate. 00:49:13.720 |
So we do sometimes have to authenticate text messages 00:49:17.320 |
on the witness stand or in depositions, you know. 00:49:25.960 |
"Oh no, this is just my good friend," you know, 00:49:29.440 |
which is just like you kill your credibility. 00:49:32.120 |
You know, if you, "Oh no, she's just my very good friend." 00:49:38.360 |
Or, "No, we were just friends at that point." 00:49:48.160 |
But sometimes people just own it, just own it. 00:49:53.280 |
and opposing counsel thought they were gonna really hit 'em. 00:49:57.200 |
They were like, "And looking at this credit card receipt, 00:50:09.720 |
We actually just did like an afternoon delight, 00:50:20.920 |
- That actually I think helped his credibility. 00:50:22.000 |
It was my client, so I thought it was the right move. 00:50:25.480 |
but he was naturally intelligent enough to go, 00:50:28.840 |
"Yeah, my credibility, like I'm not gonna lie under oath. 00:50:32.360 |
"I'll admit what it was, but I'll do it in such an," 00:50:59.160 |
you know, "You piece of shit, I hope you die." 00:51:02.240 |
My client sent that text message to his co-parent. 00:51:54.080 |
You know, she sent me like 50 texts exactly like that, 00:51:57.240 |
and I never responded, and I pushed it down every time, 00:52:07.240 |
but the truth is, I'm human, and I was at my limits, 00:52:13.360 |
cross out entire sheets of their cross-examination, 00:52:17.560 |
They thought that they had their like Perry Mason moment. 00:52:20.360 |
They had their like, "Did you order the code red?" moment, 00:52:25.000 |
Because if you just own and accept your fault 00:52:40.240 |
I think text was designed for, "Are you here? 00:53:08.040 |
Like I was just reading, actually on the way here, 00:53:11.520 |
in the car, I was reading through a text exchange 00:53:14.600 |
between two co-parents in the middle of a custody thing 00:53:25.400 |
"you have no right to take the kids from me." 00:53:31.480 |
Maddie got a good grade on her science thing. 00:53:38.640 |
"Yeah, her teacher said she's doing really well. 00:53:48.960 |
I wanna know, was there a phone conversation in between 00:53:55.440 |
"Oh no, look, we were both pissed, whatever." 00:53:59.120 |
and then we're supposed to pretend that didn't happen, 00:54:24.700 |
to probably apologize for being an asshole, right? 00:54:28.960 |
We humans use all kinds of forms of communication 00:54:55.040 |
and would you put it on a billboard in Times Square? 00:54:57.620 |
'Cause like, everything you say on Facebook or Instagram 00:55:00.800 |
can and will be used against you in a court of law. 00:55:06.280 |
I mean, that's going on with, what's his name? 00:55:09.480 |
Jake Paul or whatever Paul and Dylan Danis right now. 00:55:14.080 |
every picture that's ever been put on the internet 00:55:16.040 |
of her, by her, is being weaponized right now. 00:55:19.640 |
- To reference an earlier part of our discussion, 00:55:30.480 |
- But is the reward of doing it via text worthwhile? 00:55:44.760 |
does it merit that risk of that being in writing 00:55:53.120 |
and scroll back and get heated up again about? 00:56:03.620 |
that for whatever reasons inspires a kind of candor. 00:56:07.700 |
Because I think it is a new way to communicate, right? 00:56:19.820 |
So I don't know, I think it started as something 00:56:27.940 |
Like texts were meant to be, I'm here, I'm outside, 00:56:40.140 |
or visceral things or more emphatic, passionate things 00:56:56.180 |
and B, I just know what it looks like on the outside. 00:57:00.740 |
Like I know when I read it, what it looks like. 00:57:08.100 |
Like to just see the, it's like when you watch a video 00:57:11.140 |
of someone at just their worst moment, you know? 00:57:14.020 |
And the person tries to say, but wait, that's not me. 00:57:20.620 |
And I think as a lawyer, my job is to weaponize that 00:57:31.140 |
- And when I'm defending someone, I'm supposed to say, 00:57:38.860 |
would you wanna be judged by your worst moment? 00:57:40.900 |
So I have to be able to look at that both directions. 00:57:44.660 |
- Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone looks great on text. 00:57:47.020 |
- I mean, there's so much of our communication 00:57:52.380 |
Like my sense of humor does not do well via text. 00:57:58.020 |
a sarcastic sense of humor or I have a dry sense of humor 00:58:01.940 |
and it does not always translate well to text. 00:58:04.700 |
The nuance of things is lost sometimes, you know. 00:58:08.260 |
- Yeah, but that's what makes the risk of it hilarious. 00:58:14.420 |
taking a risk, the dry, there's a risk with a text 00:58:18.140 |
if you do some like dark, dry statement, right? 00:58:26.260 |
and then there's no response for a couple hours. 00:58:32.100 |
it's the gap between the two trapezes, you know. 00:58:43.900 |
It's like that moment of just hang is, yeah, that's a rush. 00:58:47.380 |
I mean, that's a rush, that's a beautiful thing. 00:58:49.220 |
- Well, I have my friend, Michael Malice living close by 00:58:52.260 |
and if the courtroom were ever to see the text between us, 00:58:56.100 |
we would be both in jail for many, many years. 00:59:01.100 |
- Subpoena, yeah, when this finally comes out, 00:59:03.660 |
when I have my Johnny Depp, Amber Heard moment. 00:59:09.860 |
the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing was a great example of, 00:59:20.220 |
They both looked like what they are, which is humans, 00:59:26.820 |
it really is like that People magazine thing, 00:59:47.260 |
I mean, for me, I don't know if you can speak to that. 00:59:56.980 |
even just to say a relationship laid out in this raw form, 01:00:04.660 |
- My feeling about that trial is there is no amount of money 01:00:10.540 |
that would be worth laying that kind of stuff bare publicly. 01:00:32.740 |
And I just don't know that exposing that to the world, 01:00:41.220 |
that by bringing that suit, Johnny Depp was saying, 01:00:43.860 |
look, yeah, I have to show these awful things 01:00:48.300 |
but it's not as bad as what she's claimed I've done. 01:00:54.300 |
And for Amber Heard, I think her response is, 01:00:57.020 |
well, for him to say I'm lying, I have to prove my, 01:01:00.580 |
but my God, like what an awful thing to watch. 01:01:24.620 |
But yeah, it's all this, that kind of dysfunction, 01:01:27.020 |
that kind of chaos, that kind of he said, she said, 01:01:30.780 |
two people with completely differing histories 01:01:43.300 |
'Cause again, no one engages in domestic violence 01:01:51.780 |
Like people always do this to me as a divorce lawyer. 01:01:54.140 |
They come in and they go, well, here's photos of the kids 01:02:00.300 |
And I'm like, there's photos of Jeffrey Dahmer 01:02:10.500 |
I'm in the middle of a very complex domestic violence trial. 01:02:18.180 |
where they look very happy and she never called the cops. 01:02:28.580 |
self-identify as victims of domestic violence. 01:02:31.780 |
- And they probably have many stretches of time 01:02:37.700 |
And by the way, perpetrators of domestic violence 01:02:51.740 |
that when they're bad, you go, but wait, no, that's not him. 01:02:57.340 |
We saw that in the public testimony of that Dep Heard thing 01:03:01.340 |
is there were moments where you look at her and go, 01:03:06.940 |
And there are moments where you listen to the testimony 01:03:14.580 |
So I really, this should teach us something about 01:03:19.580 |
how not only are there two sides to every story, 01:03:23.740 |
like that there's just so much complexity and nuance 01:03:27.500 |
But I think everyone was asking the question, 01:03:29.940 |
whether you were team Dep, team Heard or team, 01:03:32.300 |
I could care less about either of these people. 01:03:47.180 |
- I've actually become friendly with Camille Vasquez, 01:03:57.460 |
I mean, you radiate this kind of same passion. 01:04:00.020 |
Like she's just truly happy doing what she does. 01:04:02.860 |
And, but also where the stress of a case is like, 01:04:11.940 |
She's, you can't sleep, all this kind of stuff. 01:04:15.460 |
- I think that's a function of our professions. 01:04:21.500 |
like the night before a trial, I can hardly sleep. 01:04:29.820 |
And I even have moments as I pull up to the courthouse 01:04:36.580 |
that are like my lucky cuff links or something. 01:04:40.860 |
I walk into the courtroom and I have this feeling 01:04:46.180 |
And the moment it starts, something in me goes, 01:04:52.340 |
And it's instantly, like I just, I own it, I love it. 01:04:56.580 |
And it's, yeah, it's the people that love this job, 01:05:10.940 |
I still, I can't imagine spending five days a week 01:05:30.980 |
One thing just sticks in my head from something he said 01:05:34.560 |
as advice that if you and your partner, your spouse, 01:05:40.020 |
are, if there's a fight, there's a difficult thing 01:05:42.780 |
you have to deal with, keep that to yourself. 01:06:07.140 |
- Everything boils down to Godfather references. 01:06:09.780 |
- Yeah, you don't take sides against the family. 01:06:16.420 |
I mean, again, I don't know that Steve in candor 01:06:24.740 |
But I think what he's saying is don't project it out 01:06:32.580 |
view your relationship, which then will change 01:06:34.860 |
the way you view your relationship, you know? 01:06:48.260 |
- Yeah, it's one of the things I mentioned to you offline 01:06:55.260 |
I've never heard him ever speak negatively of his wife. 01:07:02.020 |
And that to me has always been an inspiration 01:07:19.100 |
and he has a great wife in part because of that. 01:07:22.300 |
Like I think it's clear that he's in her corner 01:07:26.580 |
and cheering for her, it's clear she's cheering for him. 01:07:29.460 |
It's not like Joe Rogan's not a man who has opportunity. 01:07:33.540 |
I mean, he's surrounded by UFC ring girls, for God's sakes. 01:07:35.980 |
Like this is a guy who has all the opportunity in the world, 01:07:40.420 |
And that's a superpower, like that's a real thing. 01:07:44.180 |
Now the question is, he doesn't seem to talk about it, 01:07:58.300 |
"I gotta work really hard to be able to do this. 01:07:59.780 |
"Like, yeah, I'm not good at memorizing that, 01:08:15.700 |
most people couldn't pick her out of a lineup. 01:08:21.820 |
it's a private, deep, meaningful, intimate partnership. 01:08:25.140 |
That's interesting, that's also an inspiration. 01:08:27.700 |
Not everything about your life has to be this, 01:08:32.940 |
"I'm in a happy relationship, everything is wonderful." 01:08:35.420 |
Especially that, I think there is something about 01:08:38.660 |
the womb-like, cocoon-like joy, you know, of love. 01:08:44.660 |
You know, when you're just tucked in, snuggled in, 01:08:50.500 |
like just pressed against each other with that. 01:09:01.580 |
Like we were just dying for connection, you know? 01:09:04.060 |
And that connection is so big, it's so everything. 01:09:08.740 |
You know, one of my earliest psychedelic experiences, 01:09:16.540 |
in every psychedelic experience I've ever had, 01:09:19.420 |
is this idea of like everything is connection. 01:09:22.780 |
Everything is being pressed to someone and with them, 01:09:29.060 |
you know, like the warmth of human connection. 01:09:31.460 |
Like one of the reasons I enjoy listening to your work 01:09:36.860 |
that I think at the core, you see connection and love. 01:09:41.860 |
And I think for me, from my earliest experiences 01:09:54.700 |
I was very much, that was put on my radar by psychedelics. 01:09:59.300 |
And just stayed part of my consciousness forever. 01:10:02.820 |
And I think I had a 30 something year break from psychedelics 01:10:08.820 |
That's still the core of everything, is connection. 01:10:12.500 |
- I mean, it's fascinating how deeply you value connection, 01:10:23.020 |
It's not counterintuitive. - I think it's the opposite. 01:10:24.580 |
No, I think it's actually why I'm well-suited for what I do. 01:10:28.420 |
I think what I do is I have to learn the story of my client 01:10:43.540 |
And then I have to feel it and understand it in a way 01:10:51.100 |
So I have to feel this person's story and feelings 01:11:01.260 |
and every one of them is a potential strength 01:11:19.420 |
and to put myself in the emotional state of someone 01:11:22.220 |
in its best possible light and its worst possible light 01:11:32.780 |
but also just to bear witness to this connection 01:11:43.100 |
but I was a hospice volunteer for many, many years 01:12:06.740 |
Like we play a game you can't win to the utmost. 01:12:15.580 |
then what do we do with the rest of that time? 01:12:27.340 |
You know, and again, I think it's love and connection, 01:12:36.940 |
is helping people beat the crap out of each other. 01:12:54.420 |
financially, emotionally, whatever it might be, 01:12:56.060 |
interpersonally, in terms of with their kids. 01:13:05.940 |
- And witnessing the ashes doesn't make you cynical 01:13:26.180 |
the hypocrisy of it, that's something beautiful about that. 01:13:31.020 |
- Well, it's just the return is so great on the investment. 01:13:34.020 |
Like, listen, man, I've had more than one dog. 01:13:37.460 |
Like when my dog died, the first dog I had died, 01:13:46.380 |
I will never expose myself to this kind of pain again. 01:14:04.940 |
and then we'll take him, you know, we just need to," 01:14:10.140 |
and this dog come in and he said, "Oh, he has mange. 01:14:14.660 |
He walked in, my heart went, "Yeah, I got a dog." 01:14:17.660 |
And now that dog is 13 years old and his eyes are cloudy 01:14:39.900 |
And you'll never, you'll never lose that pain. 01:14:44.740 |
But I promise you, your heart has an infinite capacity 01:14:53.080 |
And you'll never feel a love that replaces the whole, 01:14:57.580 |
like there will never be another buster for me. 01:15:12.660 |
When that stupid puppy that was five months old 01:15:17.460 |
stumbled in, I went, "I guess I'm gonna do this again." 01:15:27.380 |
like, you know, it's that Joseph Brodsky poem, 01:15:30.420 |
Like, "I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear." 01:15:51.540 |
- There's also a different perspective on it, that pain. 01:15:57.700 |
the show of this interaction with an old man, 01:16:07.820 |
He's mourning the loss of that partner of love. 01:16:10.900 |
And the old man says that that is the best part. 01:16:26.580 |
But the pain is actually a kind of celebration 01:16:40.340 |
But, and there is a school of thought that says 01:16:42.700 |
that only unfulfilled love can be truly romantic. 01:17:07.260 |
that that's when you can have pure love without the drama. 01:17:14.500 |
And again, I don't know what it all means, right, 01:17:16.620 |
existentially, but I just feel like they have, 01:17:20.420 |
that kind of love has to be here to teach us something. 01:17:25.340 |
And I feel like the fact that they're so amazing 01:17:41.900 |
And I feel like there's just such a lesson there. 01:17:52.500 |
And, you know, that your heart has this infinite capacity. 01:18:09.620 |
I'll never love a dog the way I love this dog. 01:18:34.380 |
and tremendous amount of risk to do it, you know? 01:19:00.380 |
Because we don't even, I don't know that we even 01:19:02.260 |
feel comfortable diving into the full range of ourselves. 01:19:08.780 |
- Okay, so speaking of the whole sociopath slash empath 01:19:13.580 |
that is all embodied in one human being, that is you, 01:19:29.540 |
- Craziest would be different than most complicated. 01:19:43.140 |
and so many variations of people cheating with people, 01:19:47.500 |
people sleeping with someone's, a relative of their spouse, 01:19:51.260 |
people having same sex or polyamorous relationships 01:19:57.100 |
So much craziness that you could fill 15 books. 01:20:16.900 |
I'm trying to convince a judge who's a better parent 01:20:23.220 |
and that is so loaded with subjective value judgments. 01:20:28.220 |
- Is there, just to linger on the maternal presumption, 01:20:34.180 |
is that a thing you come face to face with often? 01:20:44.180 |
It was also known as the tender years doctrine, 01:20:46.380 |
which meant that a child under the age of seven 01:20:48.540 |
was presumed to be in the custody of the mother 01:20:51.380 |
unless you could show she was an unfit mother. 01:20:56.860 |
someone has to be proven an unfit mother came from. 01:21:09.940 |
I mean, you can't suggest that there isn't in the world 01:21:14.940 |
a suggestion that a mother who births a child 01:21:26.300 |
that's different than a father's bond with a child. 01:21:42.580 |
there's also a lot of research on how is attachment formed? 01:21:48.740 |
How should parenting schedules be put together 01:21:54.460 |
But, there's conflicting perspectives on that. 01:22:01.300 |
- Yeah, there is because there's lots of kinds of judges. 01:22:03.820 |
Like there's judges that are thoughtful, enlightened, 01:22:10.620 |
were unsuccessful lawyers that were good politically 01:22:16.380 |
they just want a job where like they show up at nine o'clock 01:22:18.860 |
they have a lunch break from 12 until two o'clock 01:22:22.820 |
and they get a certain number of weeks vacation 01:22:26.140 |
- So what is in general the process of these custody battles? 01:22:34.780 |
- Well, most the overwhelming majority of custody cases 01:22:46.980 |
that love their children more than they dislike 01:23:00.300 |
'Cause there are decisions that have to be made about kids. 01:23:04.220 |
Can they go on medication if they need it or not? 01:23:11.100 |
And when will we each spend time with the kids? 01:23:18.580 |
a negotiation between counsel about those issues. 01:23:22.860 |
And they're not ugly and they're not anything. 01:23:27.380 |
Again, sometimes people have differing perspectives, 01:23:29.780 |
you know, but sometimes people haven't thought 01:23:33.660 |
a lot of what I'm doing is counseling a person 01:23:39.300 |
well, I've been the person who handles, you know, 01:23:41.700 |
all of the homework and all of the everything. 01:23:49.220 |
Like I've always done the homework with the kids. 01:23:50.900 |
So I'm the parent who's in charge of the homework. 01:23:55.380 |
But there's also a logic that you can then say, right, 01:23:59.100 |
but then you're doing all the heavy lifting of parenting 01:24:02.940 |
And you were a married couple and living together. 01:24:07.020 |
because you're good at it and you seem to like it. 01:24:13.980 |
because we don't want the child when they're 13 to say, 01:24:20.180 |
Whereas you make me do my homework and eat my broccoli. 01:24:22.420 |
Dad's the grass on the other side of the fence 01:24:30.260 |
Yeah, okay, we always go to my mother's for Thanksgiving. 01:24:36.060 |
So you went to, now you're gonna have new traditions. 01:24:49.220 |
looking at their parenting in a different way. 01:24:51.540 |
We're not gonna live in the same house anymore, 01:24:55.380 |
you know, this child or these children together. 01:25:04.300 |
if somebody says, what do you do for a living? 01:25:08.740 |
And they go, oh my God, you must have stories. 01:25:19.460 |
for them to end their relationship as a married couple, 01:25:23.340 |
to have an amicable co-parenting relationship. 01:25:27.100 |
and they figured out a good parenting access schedule 01:25:29.620 |
that made sure that they both had both leisure time 01:25:34.260 |
People would be like, that's the worst fucking story. 01:25:48.660 |
And by the way, those are super interesting as a lawyer. 01:25:56.020 |
You do have a chapter called, Everybody Fucks the Nanny. 01:26:15.820 |
that they should have a threesome with the nanny. 01:26:18.700 |
They had a bunch of threesomes with the nanny 01:26:20.540 |
and then the nanny and the wife paired up and left him. 01:26:26.540 |
- That seems like a happy ending to the whole thing. 01:26:30.860 |
- Well, he's really gonna have a nanny fascination now. 01:26:33.620 |
- Now he's, yeah, well, now he's gotta see the nanny 01:26:44.180 |
Yeah, I mean, the nanny thing, I think is a function of, 01:26:48.180 |
in many circumstances, is the characteristics of the wife 01:26:57.540 |
and that have been extinguished by the presence of children. 01:27:01.860 |
So my words of wisdom is not don't get a nanny 01:27:09.340 |
My thought on it is that a woman should remember, 01:27:13.940 |
even when she's a mother, that she's also a woman who a man, 01:27:22.820 |
with the part of herself that is an independent woman 01:27:28.900 |
And there's a lot to be learned from divorced couples 01:27:32.460 |
because divorced couples, if you do it right, it's awesome. 01:27:36.380 |
I had a wonderful experience parenting and being divorced 01:27:41.180 |
'cause I divorced when my kids were quite young. 01:27:46.860 |
She's a great mom, nice person, we're good friends. 01:27:51.380 |
I had half the time I had my kids and I could focus on them. 01:27:55.860 |
they were with the other person who loves them 01:27:59.420 |
And I didn't have any of the responsibilities of kids. 01:28:01.740 |
And I could just have all of the wonderful fun 01:28:04.980 |
that you can have when you don't have the responsibilities 01:28:09.460 |
that come with full-time caring for children. 01:28:11.960 |
- What would you say now on the flip positive side, 01:28:15.660 |
we've been talking about the collapse of things. 01:28:20.380 |
What's the secret to a successful romantic relationship? 01:28:25.220 |
- My mom used to say that it's hard to define intelligence, 01:28:30.140 |
So I'm much better at pointing out where people fall apart 01:28:43.780 |
So it's easy to then say, well, just don't do what they do. 01:28:48.780 |
But I don't know that that's not an oversimplification. 01:29:11.300 |
I do think in my personal and professional experience 01:29:24.940 |
more than they just want you in a disconnected way. 01:29:28.540 |
So if you were to say to your romantic partner, 01:29:47.300 |
and I kind of wanna be someplace else for part of the time. 01:29:50.100 |
There's just no choice there, it's so obvious. 01:30:01.820 |
I think is important because I think in relationships 01:30:12.100 |
and something magical happens and we become we. 01:30:19.740 |
And now there's you and there's me and there's we. 01:30:23.020 |
And then the we gets bigger and bigger and bigger. 01:30:29.700 |
It gets so big, but it gets so big that you get small 01:30:41.780 |
No, no, no, the we, what, you don't like the we? 01:30:53.420 |
And so we picked each other out of lots of choices. 01:31:03.860 |
And I really think that there's something there 01:31:20.340 |
And if you mix it so much that you and me loses 01:31:31.220 |
like, I don't think that that's the way to do it. 01:31:40.740 |
well, why aren't you going with this person to that? 01:31:52.580 |
So why don't we speak very honestly about that? 01:31:57.580 |
And I think some of that's our own insecurity. 01:32:01.260 |
Well, why don't you wanna be with me 24 hours a day? 01:32:06.860 |
- Well, but also probably people are either afraid 01:32:12.020 |
or lazy in developing their individual selves. 01:32:17.020 |
it's lonely going out there in the world by yourself 01:32:19.740 |
and it's comforting in that little cocoon of we. 01:32:22.180 |
- I mean, it can also be incredibly adventurous 01:32:26.140 |
and then coming back to the we with a full report. 01:32:29.580 |
- Coming back and saying like, oh my God, guess what I saw? 01:32:44.980 |
I went into this and then I got you this present from there. 01:33:03.580 |
"Please don't go, don't go, stay here with me." 01:33:09.340 |
If he goes like, yeah, you're right, I'll just stay here. 01:33:11.860 |
Like this is, I didn't wanna deal with that anyway. 01:33:26.940 |
That seems to me like a really important one. 01:33:40.980 |
if it's like you've picked me up at the airport, 01:33:43.260 |
you know, or like, you know, you're someone I could call. 01:33:49.980 |
- I like how you escalated from airport pickup to murder. 01:33:55.620 |
Well, I have to tell you, I define, you know, 01:34:03.420 |
I mean, to me, the ideal male friendship is the scene 01:34:10.460 |
"and you never have to ask me about it again." 01:34:15.140 |
And that's sort of like, to me, that's friendship. 01:34:17.540 |
So it's a high bar, you know, to be like a friend. 01:34:25.500 |
you should ideally have with your romantic partner. 01:34:28.780 |
it should be the like, whose car are we taking? 01:34:38.500 |
Like if you called me tomorrow, there's a body. 01:34:43.940 |
Like I wonder how many people out there are like that 01:35:09.780 |
the world is terrifying when you feel things very deeply 01:35:12.740 |
because there's so much pain, there's so much betrayal, 01:35:15.500 |
there's so many opportunities to be hurt, you know? 01:35:18.620 |
And I think when you are that kind of person, 01:35:26.300 |
And one of them is that I don't care, I don't feel anything. 01:35:29.380 |
I don't feel anything, I don't feel anything. 01:35:30.740 |
Well, you try to convince yourself, I don't feel anything. 01:35:37.860 |
And then it's like, oh my God, the weight of this is crap. 01:35:39.700 |
I mean, I think it's the whole arc of Pink Floyd, The Wall. 01:35:42.300 |
It's literally the entire arc of Pink Floyd, The Wall, 01:36:05.900 |
it's very hard, but it can also be a superpower. 01:36:10.500 |
Because I think when you can bring that to a relationship, 01:36:18.300 |
then there's something very magical about that. 01:36:25.620 |
to feel it in yourself, to understand it, you know, 01:36:30.860 |
I'm humbled by what it brought me professionally. 01:36:46.860 |
and in a fulfilling, a personally fulfilling way. 01:36:49.620 |
And ideally in a way that does good for other people. 01:36:52.820 |
- You yourself are incredibly successful and high performer. 01:37:01.540 |
and just high performers in all walks of life. 01:37:04.260 |
What can you say about successful relationships 01:37:15.540 |
or there's something special when they're busier? 01:37:23.820 |
high net worth individuals, but also high performing, 01:37:27.180 |
I would make a distinction between high net worth 01:37:38.300 |
their high net worth status is their great grandfather died. 01:37:41.860 |
So that is different than someone who is self-made, 01:37:45.620 |
who through discipline, focus, entrepreneurship, 01:37:49.700 |
whatever it might be, that they have found success. 01:37:54.700 |
And there's also a difference between financial success 01:37:58.740 |
and fame, 'cause I've represented famous people 01:38:08.140 |
And I've represented people that were not in any way famous 01:38:11.660 |
and were very high performing in their field. 01:38:13.820 |
Like in New York, we have a lot of finance people. 01:38:16.580 |
And what I find is their divorces are challenging, 01:38:21.580 |
one on a technical level, because figuring out 01:38:26.540 |
what they have and how to divide it is tricky. 01:38:29.900 |
Because when something's moving that quickly, 01:38:31.980 |
like when your portfolio's movement affects a market, 01:38:43.220 |
when it was in its early stages, could affect Amazon stock. 01:38:51.820 |
There are businesses that are affected by a divorce. 01:38:56.020 |
But in terms of being in a relationship with someone 01:39:13.660 |
From Joe Rogan, we've talked about any of these people, 01:39:19.260 |
like they have a routine, they have a discipline, 01:39:21.060 |
they have a focus, they have a way they like to do things, 01:39:24.260 |
they have a type of coffee they like to drink, 01:39:31.780 |
I mean, divorce is fundamental things in your life 01:39:37.060 |
Like your spouse may be the one who has decided 01:39:39.940 |
you are no longer going to live in that house. 01:39:42.540 |
You will no longer see your children on these days. 01:39:51.940 |
high net worth person, they are used to being told yes. 01:40:00.020 |
But just like illness, you can hire the best doctor, 01:40:05.020 |
but you can't cure cancer because you have a lot of money. 01:40:15.900 |
And that's, I mean, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's 01:40:24.060 |
with the best lawyers in California working on them 01:40:28.340 |
is proof of the fact that you can't just buy a resolution 01:40:31.380 |
to those things, that you have to go through it 01:40:43.940 |
Average divorce, I mean, it's sort of like a, 01:40:47.320 |
what I always tell clients in the first consultation 01:40:50.520 |
is I tell them that the most reasonable question 01:40:52.400 |
a person could ask me sitting in that chair across from me 01:40:58.480 |
And those are the two questions I can't answer. 01:41:01.520 |
And then the next thing they say is, give me a range, 01:41:04.480 |
which is a bit like calling your doctor and saying, 01:41:12.400 |
Well, I can't tell you, I'd have to do tests. 01:41:26.340 |
Or it's a brain aneurysm and you'll be dead in five minutes. 01:41:34.140 |
So I have the least expensive divorce I've ever seen 01:41:42.540 |
is two people who, one of whom comes into my office 01:41:52.060 |
She's gonna keep the house, I'm gonna keep the 401k. 01:41:58.620 |
I'm gonna pay her this much in child support each month 01:42:03.020 |
on what we're gonna do in terms of the schedule 01:42:04.700 |
with the kids, but they're primarily gonna live with her. 01:42:06.840 |
Can you write this up and make it legally binding? 01:42:14.420 |
who went through a divorce and handled it just masterfully 01:42:28.700 |
I don't know, that to me is just an inspiration. 01:42:34.620 |
His whole view was like, who cares about money? 01:42:39.660 |
- Also, he refused with every ounce of his being 01:42:44.660 |
to have anything but complete love for the other person. 01:42:49.240 |
- Yeah, I've had clients who, with a straight face, 01:42:53.440 |
"over a few million dollars," and they mean it 01:43:00.520 |
So I have a friendly relationship with my ex-wife 01:43:07.000 |
and we have maintained a very good relationship. 01:43:20.520 |
We kind of post-game it when we chat with each other. 01:43:25.560 |
"You never screwed around with me when it came to the kids. 01:43:34.900 |
"If I called you, if I was having a really bad day at work 01:43:41.680 |
"and I just felt like I would call her and say, 01:43:45.380 |
"and take them out for ice cream or something tonight? 01:43:47.060 |
"I know it's not my night, but would you mind 01:43:48.600 |
"if I just took them out for a couple hours?" 01:44:00.840 |
"but it was partly that you never screwed around with me 01:44:05.780 |
"or if I needed something as the mother of the kids, 01:44:08.220 |
"you were always like, 'Yeah, sure, of course.'" 01:44:19.780 |
"and I don't want the boys to be in, of course." 01:44:23.300 |
And so I think, yeah, when you approach a conflict with, 01:44:34.940 |
from the point of view of, "I'm not gonna argue with you. 01:44:46.020 |
It doesn't always work, 'cause sometimes people are so angry 01:44:54.300 |
the quieter I get, the more you seem irrational. 01:45:05.060 |
like if I know my adversary's coming in hard, 01:45:20.540 |
"your honor, what's their problem over there?" 01:45:29.940 |
There's gonna be a wedding in like 20-something years. 01:45:42.220 |
'cause if they pass each other by the shrimp boat, 01:45:48.720 |
"Yeah, we fucked up this whole marriage thing, 01:45:50.980 |
"but man, we did a good job with this kid, did we?" 01:46:02.280 |
even if you're mad at yourself for the choices you made 01:46:21.660 |
"if it wasn't that they were part me and part you, 01:46:32.220 |
- Well, it's really hard for some people, but it's-- 01:46:33.900 |
- I don't understand why it's so hard for some people. 01:46:37.940 |
There's not a lot of things that I kinda don't understand, 01:46:41.420 |
but that's one that I kinda don't understand. 01:46:44.560 |
one of the weird things I did as a divorce lawyer 01:46:50.300 |
that caused a little stir among my colleagues 01:46:58.660 |
like, we all steal from each other's work, divorce lawyers. 01:47:04.780 |
we all deal with each other over and over again, 01:47:11.460 |
that really know the unique stresses of that job. 01:47:13.700 |
So even though we try to kill each other all day, 01:47:15.100 |
it's like boxers, like professional fighters. 01:47:16.820 |
Like, yeah, your job's to take each other's head off, 01:47:19.100 |
but like, nobody knows what the two of you went through 01:47:28.660 |
'Cause I'm always like, like, yeah, 'cause you know what? 01:47:30.780 |
They relate to each other better than anybody. 01:47:35.040 |
You know, the competitors, they bled, you know? 01:47:43.560 |
on opposite sides, trying to take each other apart. 01:48:04.720 |
provisions related to maintaining a life insurance policy 01:48:09.420 |
And I wrote this paragraph or this select, this section, 01:48:23.660 |
they're old enough to know what Christmas is, 01:48:26.100 |
but they're not old enough to go buy a Christmas present. 01:48:35.700 |
but they're not old enough to buy one for the parent. 01:48:42.340 |
So I thought, I'm gonna put in a provision that says 01:48:50.500 |
that they can't independently purchase a Mother's Day 01:48:56.980 |
that you'll take the children either to buy a small gift 01:49:09.640 |
Like, it's not for the person, it's for the kid. 01:49:17.660 |
I don't have a card for you 'cause I'm fucking five. 01:49:24.480 |
So wouldn't you want your child, not your co-parent, 01:49:30.420 |
Fine, but you don't want your child to be embarrassed. 01:49:36.080 |
the parties acknowledge that it is the intention 01:49:37.900 |
of this provision to ensure that the child is not embarrassed 01:49:45.460 |
I cannot tell you how many people refuse to sign that. 01:49:49.860 |
How many lawyers said to me, "We're taking that out." 01:49:54.540 |
"Well, why does my client have to buy a present 01:49:57.140 |
I said, "They're not buying a present for my client, 01:50:03.080 |
"It could be one of those little $3 boxes of chocolates 01:50:12.780 |
And I have to tell you, of the conundrums, of the puzzles 01:50:28.260 |
of their complete inability to do anything nice 01:50:32.660 |
- Like the level of hatred, the level of vitriol. 01:50:39.340 |
If you apologize, there's not a lot I won't forgive. 01:50:51.980 |
But if someone says what I call a non-bullshit apology, 01:50:57.860 |
"Oh, I'm sorry you got so upset when I did that." 01:51:01.820 |
You know, "I'm sorry that you were offended." 01:51:09.460 |
We might not be talking about the same thing. 01:51:11.340 |
Or you might be saying, "I'm sorry that you found out 01:51:20.420 |
"and I realized that that hurt you and I'm really sorry. 01:51:27.940 |
"And I know that it hurt you and I'm really sorry." 01:51:38.460 |
the level of vitriol that you will harm your child 01:51:47.500 |
And I have to tell you, I see that all the time. 01:51:59.940 |
"Get a prenup ideally, but if you don't have a prenup, 01:52:04.460 |
Money and hassle, you know, of paperwork and of time 01:52:08.180 |
and of going through an ugly financial divorce. 01:52:23.300 |
So the child could be used as part of a manipulation. 01:52:32.500 |
And they do it with the permission of their own conscience 01:52:38.660 |
I'm gonna protect this person, this child from this person 01:52:45.660 |
But that doesn't mean they were a bad father or bad mother. 01:52:51.380 |
but the skill set of a spouse and of a parent, 01:52:56.620 |
And I've seen, you know, people alienate children 01:53:08.180 |
And as a lawyer, you know, it doesn't matter what I know, 01:53:45.740 |
You told that kid, "Your dad's a bad person." 01:53:49.260 |
And that is something people are guilty of all the time. 01:53:58.340 |
Kid comes home and says, "Oh, I met mom's new boyfriend." 01:54:05.460 |
Like, you just told that kid a whole bunch of information 01:54:08.020 |
about how he's supposed to feel about this person. 01:54:14.480 |
Yeah, I heard he's really, he likes bicycles. 01:54:17.680 |
Like, you just told this kid, "Okay, it's okay. 01:54:22.340 |
It's okay that your mom is with this person." 01:54:24.780 |
Like, and again, whatever you feel about your ex, 01:54:38.680 |
'Cause I, it goes back to the earlier discussion we had. 01:54:44.140 |
Like, I usually forgive people if there's something in them, 01:54:50.800 |
but even just if there's something about them 01:54:54.060 |
Like, it's great that they exist in the world. 01:55:02.920 |
- I don't know, to me, like forgiveness is very often, 01:55:07.380 |
Like when I let go of anger, I feel lighter, you know? 01:55:14.820 |
I mean, partly it's 'cause I fight for a living. 01:55:28.460 |
If I argue with you for free, that's not fair, you know? 01:55:33.200 |
- But I think we were talking about the incredibly 01:55:42.940 |
- And you were saying the cheapest one was the yellow-- 01:55:48.820 |
make it legally binding, five grand maybe, you know, tops. 01:55:52.420 |
But usually 3,500, five grand, that kind of vibe. 01:55:55.700 |
Most expensive, millions, millions in counsel fees. 01:56:00.300 |
- And that's because of the duration, the complexity-- 01:56:02.660 |
- Yeah, the duration, the complexity of issues. 01:56:09.940 |
- So it's like as a custody or like, what's the-- 01:56:13.060 |
- Well, it can be complex custody that requires a hearing, 01:56:24.720 |
It can be a situation where emergency circumstances occur, 01:56:31.720 |
and you have to bring them back under the Hague Convention 01:56:55.760 |
he tested positive for cocaine on a hair follicle test 01:57:01.120 |
not going to test positive and he tested positive. 01:57:08.720 |
we gotta suspend access, we gotta protect the kids, 01:57:12.800 |
we gotta think about what are the implications of this 01:57:17.120 |
Like this is the kind of stuff that can amp up 01:57:29.960 |
I have attorneys and paralegals who work for me. 01:57:31.760 |
So when you have a team of lawyers working on a case, 01:57:35.700 |
you can burn tens of thousands of dollars a day 01:57:48.320 |
The high net worth space is a different world. 01:58:03.680 |
A high net worth person owns an LLC that owns that home. 01:58:12.640 |
They are a beneficial interested party in that trust. 01:58:19.480 |
tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year 01:58:21.920 |
pay less in taxes than a cop or a firefighter 01:58:33.240 |
then in a divorce become very tricky to unwind 01:58:44.140 |
- Well, then that takes us to the question of prenups. 01:58:47.680 |
What's your view on prenups, prenuptial agreements? 01:58:53.040 |
but if you ain't no chump, hollow, we want prenup. 01:59:09.640 |
that binds their respective rights and obligations 01:59:12.040 |
in the event of a divorce when it comes to financial issues. 01:59:21.000 |
And there really aren't any reasons not to have them 01:59:36.580 |
which is not that hard to do for a lawyer to do. 02:00:06.440 |
Like, so there's no reason you wouldn't do it, 02:00:11.300 |
I've had clients that have hundreds of thousands of dollars, 02:00:34.080 |
As long as there has been some minimal asset disclosure, 02:00:40.000 |
and as long as there's not a language deficiency, 02:00:48.720 |
and if they don't, that at least they've acknowledged 02:00:51.560 |
in their native language that there is some opportunity 02:01:10.260 |
that can be effective, or that people converge towards 02:01:15.260 |
in terms of what does an agreement look like? 02:01:25.980 |
- And that's generally true, that both sides get half. 02:01:30.700 |
Equitable distribution, which is what the law is called, 02:01:35.760 |
it's not called the law of equal distribution for a reason, 02:01:40.520 |
Now, equal, like equitable is presumed to be equal, 02:01:44.880 |
but there are exceptions to that presumption, 02:01:47.120 |
and that's where lawyers can get into fun and/or trouble, 02:01:54.380 |
We make our money arguing that the fair result 02:02:00.900 |
And so there's the very generic standard prenup, 02:02:05.900 |
which is easy, and I call that yours, mine, and ours. 02:02:16.480 |
My name, it's mine, joint names, we split it 50/50. 02:02:28.180 |
then it's your separate property in the event you divorce. 02:02:39.580 |
So I like that because I like people having some control, 02:02:44.420 |
and I also like people having to have discussions. 02:02:47.280 |
Well, why are we putting that bonus just in your bank account? 02:02:50.380 |
Why wouldn't we put it in the joint bank account? 02:02:52.180 |
We should have that discussion while we're married, 02:02:53.940 |
not when we're in a divorce lawyer's office 10 years later, 02:02:59.080 |
So, you know, what's interesting about prenups 02:03:03.660 |
is that somehow people think there's something, 02:03:08.500 |
like, it takes away from the romance of a marriage. 02:03:12.180 |
But I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 02:03:23.860 |
It doesn't mean you're looking forward to death. 02:03:33.620 |
So when you marry, and I don't mean spiritually marrying, 02:03:37.980 |
having a marriage ceremony, I mean legally marrying, 02:04:05.980 |
They just did the most legally significant thing 02:04:13.460 |
and they have no idea what rights and obligations 02:04:19.160 |
And the first time they're gonna get an education 02:04:28.940 |
- So first of all, whenever someone approaches me 02:04:32.060 |
about prenups, and that's like four or five times a week, 02:04:45.300 |
That's from some Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. 02:05:00.260 |
I have to tell you, weddings is performative, man. 02:05:08.580 |
You know how many people I've done prenups for 02:05:13.380 |
or them being interviewed by Andy Cohen on Bravo 02:05:16.860 |
and saying, "Well, no, we don't have a prenup." 02:05:28.300 |
They're maintained by the two people that signed it 02:05:32.300 |
So nobody has to admit that they have a prenup. 02:05:34.780 |
- But there's a, yes, but there's a certain problem 02:05:37.620 |
with that in so far as a lot of people have prenups 02:05:43.860 |
Like there's no reason not to normalize prenups. 02:05:47.860 |
until some famous people say, "Yeah, we have a prenup. 02:05:55.540 |
"I don't wanna get a car accident, but I got a seatbelt." 02:06:01.180 |
- And I mean, what do you do if you're running a company? 02:06:06.180 |
Like what does that have to do with a prenup? 02:06:39.740 |
and then you both can function under those rules 02:06:45.980 |
I taught a family law drafting class at a law school. 02:06:52.380 |
and we would do pleadings, it was lots of fun. 02:06:55.260 |
When we would do prenups, I would say to the students, 02:06:57.420 |
"What's the main thing you need when you're doing a prenup?" 02:07:00.760 |
And they would say, "Well, you need asset disclosure." 02:07:03.060 |
And I'd say, "Well, that's not the main thing." 02:07:04.340 |
And they'd say, "Well, you need technical languages." 02:07:07.540 |
I'd say, "Nope, main thing you need is a crystal ball. 02:07:22.460 |
We can create tranches, we can create structures, 02:07:33.340 |
So you know if this is gonna be a submission-only event. 02:07:39.260 |
You know if we're after a certain number of minutes, 02:07:44.740 |
and I'm gonna amend my game based on that rule set. 02:07:50.420 |
You're just gonna say, "Look, what's the rule set? 02:08:06.940 |
You know you're trying to get around the rule set. 02:08:10.120 |
So prenups are, when I do a consult for a prenup, 02:08:20.300 |
"Here's what happens to your rights and obligations." 02:08:23.520 |
Then what we can change with that, there's almost no limit. 02:08:31.160 |
The example I always give is there was a case 02:08:36.120 |
where a high net worth guy married a very beautiful woman 02:08:39.880 |
and there was a provision in the prenuptial agreement 02:08:41.840 |
that said for every 10 pounds she gained during the marriage 02:08:45.080 |
she would lose $10,000 a month in alimony if they divorced. 02:08:53.600 |
as of the time of execution of this agreement. 02:08:55.560 |
And I wondered if she did like what a wrestler does. 02:09:01.880 |
and then cut when she eventually got divorced? 02:09:04.080 |
Like is she in there with sauna, you know, with the suit on? 02:09:07.080 |
But, and the appellate court essentially said, 02:09:14.160 |
"having had them make you sign this, but it's binding." 02:09:18.760 |
I wish somebody would do a contract like that. 02:09:20.320 |
Like the rent for this place would be more expensive 02:09:23.400 |
if I was fatter and cheaper if I was skinnier. 02:09:29.760 |
Well, it would keep like some motivation on you. 02:09:43.920 |
I got to give you this amount of money, you know? 02:09:46.000 |
I think he says that in one of his early books. 02:09:47.760 |
And try to make it binding somehow, which is tough. 02:09:50.600 |
Yeah, I think when we create incentives of that kind, 02:09:54.320 |
you know, that's why like there was like the no nut November, 02:09:57.760 |
no shave November, you know, sober, like all this. 02:10:14.280 |
people put in prenups what's called fidelity clauses. 02:10:24.920 |
that I discourage people from putting in prenups, 02:10:35.400 |
I'm waving alimony, I'm waving this, I'm waving that, 02:10:42.020 |
or I get this much alimony or I get this amount. 02:10:45.180 |
And I know the intention is to disincentivize 02:10:58.600 |
Like how did you prove that they cheated or not? 02:11:15.360 |
but how do you prove that I had sex with her? 02:11:20.680 |
you're opening a can of worms with that kind of a thing, 02:11:27.760 |
Sunset clauses is if we're married X period of time, 02:11:40.520 |
after a certain number of years, I think it's seven, 02:11:43.340 |
everything, including your premarital property, 02:11:51.140 |
that if you've been married that number of years, 02:11:53.920 |
like you're in enough of a serious relationship now 02:11:57.460 |
that everything is one unit, you're one person. 02:12:06.160 |
that people have to have at the six year mark. 02:12:08.460 |
Because you have to, now the honeymoon's kind of over, 02:12:15.760 |
okay, wait a minute, am I so happy in this relationship 02:12:20.760 |
that I'm willing to take all of my premarital assets 02:12:25.560 |
'Cause if not, I got six months to get divorced. 02:12:28.760 |
Like, and that's not, so like if you say to someone, 02:12:34.360 |
and then you found a company that's worth $100 million, 02:12:37.600 |
and under your prenup, that's your separate property, 02:12:47.840 |
that your prenup goes out the window in 15 years. 02:12:53.240 |
you gotta ask yourself some serious questions 02:12:55.060 |
about where's this relationship gonna be in five, 10 years. 02:13:08.200 |
You write in the book, which everybody should get. 02:13:25.460 |
And some of them are more obvious than others. 02:13:42.940 |
a reconnection with another person in their life, 02:13:57.340 |
That's one type, and it's an incredibly common type. 02:14:06.140 |
where people thought that they found their someone, 02:14:16.260 |
for his mistress just leaves a new job opportunity open. 02:14:20.060 |
- And we should also mention that you, you know, 02:14:25.100 |
If we were going to invent an infidelity-generating machine, 02:14:28.100 |
it would be called Facebook, which, by the way, 02:14:30.300 |
is a function of the fact the book was written in 2019. 02:14:38.940 |
an infidelity-generating machine, it would be called Meta. 02:14:58.160 |
You're looking into the lives of other people. 02:15:14.480 |
and you wouldn't really talk to her or interact with her. 02:15:25.260 |
We need to maybe communicate about when practice is 02:15:29.340 |
But now it's sort of an invitation to a connection. 02:15:34.140 |
there's a picture of her on vacation in a bikini. 02:15:44.440 |
And now we're talking and now we're having an interaction. 02:15:46.540 |
And now this is how the spark of affairs begins. 02:15:50.980 |
It's usually, people don't usually meet and go, 02:15:52.740 |
would you like to potentially wreck your marriage? 02:15:57.060 |
Like it's much more, you know, it's slowly happens. 02:16:02.400 |
the soulmate, the unexpected soulmate, you know, 02:16:08.620 |
I didn't expect to fall in love with this person, 02:16:10.940 |
but I did and the heart wants what the heart wants 02:16:18.940 |
it's an interesting distinction between men and women 02:16:26.800 |
his wife was cheating, the question is, did you fuck him? 02:16:30.060 |
And when a woman finds out that a man cheated, 02:16:34.940 |
You know, and those are different things, you know. 02:16:43.140 |
Yeah, there have been by much smarter people than me. 02:16:51.460 |
is very, very painful for a lot of my female clients. 02:17:11.740 |
I mean, I've seen some people that, you know, 02:17:14.420 |
it was an affair that turned into 20 plus year marriages. 02:17:18.580 |
You know, so an unhappy marriage and then a happy affair 02:17:25.260 |
Like I've not seen, there's not a formula, you know. 02:17:30.300 |
that I've seen permutations I never would have expected. 02:17:37.380 |
The other is what I call the push out of the closet, 02:17:39.900 |
which is, and that I think happened more often 02:17:48.740 |
where, including marriage equality, obviously, 02:17:52.300 |
where there's a lot of change as to people accepting people 02:17:57.660 |
And I think that there was a time where, you know, 02:18:11.980 |
So people were sneaking around and having affairs 02:18:15.940 |
with their same-sex partners, and then they get caught. 02:18:24.540 |
And again, that's another kind of complicated dynamic 02:18:27.780 |
because, you know, I haven't had that happen to me, 02:18:34.160 |
but I'd like to think it would be easier for me. 02:18:43.660 |
you're saying I want one like you, but better than you. 02:18:50.620 |
well, that's a whole different set of equipment. 02:19:04.980 |
I mean, there's a betrayal, there's a sadness, whatever, 02:19:10.620 |
The saddest type of infidelity, in my opinion, 02:19:15.620 |
is the mistake, which is someone just makes a mistake. 02:19:26.900 |
they follow temptation, their impulse control is poor, 02:19:38.220 |
or doesn't reflect the depth of their feelings. 02:19:55.620 |
Like, I just, I don't know, I was just an idiot. 02:19:57.500 |
Like, I just, you know, I saw this bright, shiny object 02:20:08.220 |
I love my wife, but I just wanna sleep with this one. 02:20:20.420 |
is, you know, or is there ethical non-monogamy? 02:20:22.900 |
Like, should we, is marriage about who I have sex with 02:20:27.900 |
or is marriage a different kind of a partnership? 02:20:32.300 |
Is it a pair bond that's about building a life together? 02:20:37.580 |
You know, and where does monogamy fit into that? 02:20:43.420 |
very intelligent discussions about that, you know. 02:20:50.780 |
a view, how often have people with open marriages 02:20:57.020 |
- Well, let's see, and this is one of those, like, 02:21:00.100 |
from a research perspective, this would be flawed. 02:21:08.220 |
So there may be lots of people having open relationships 02:21:13.220 |
that don't end up in a divorce lawyer's office, 02:21:16.700 |
But I meet a lot of people that that was the Hail Mary pass. 02:21:22.540 |
- Like, I meet a lot of people that they tried that, 02:21:27.940 |
It was like, look, we've just figured, let's try this. 02:21:30.620 |
You know, like, maybe this'll keep the glue together 02:21:35.380 |
And I've also seen open relationships go wrong, 02:21:40.380 |
you know, where we agree we're just gonna have 02:21:46.620 |
or we're gonna bring other people into the bedroom. 02:21:54.540 |
And then that connection of those two people, 02:21:59.020 |
like, you think it's a soulmate all of a sudden now, 02:22:05.580 |
Is that, like, it's the reason why I don't understand 02:22:09.020 |
It's kind of like, you know, when someone sings to you, 02:22:25.140 |
but it's the reason I can't go to strip clubs. 02:22:31.660 |
like, you go to a strip club and there's, you know, 02:22:37.620 |
just does a little thing, and then next person, 02:22:42.540 |
I like a woman's face and I like a woman's body. 02:22:54.340 |
because obviously that's like, it's almost rude not to, 02:22:56.860 |
because she's naked in front of me, of course. 02:23:02.300 |
But then I find myself going, oh my God, you're just, 02:23:17.580 |
you don't hardly know or you're not, that's different. 02:23:27.380 |
and a new person, seems to me a very dangerous ground. 02:23:32.380 |
Because you're gonna want to enjoy the novelty 02:23:35.500 |
of this new person, but you're gonna have to spend time 02:23:46.860 |
without creating the impression that you don't, 02:23:53.460 |
but this is fun, so I wanna just try this for a few. 02:23:55.860 |
But then also, I don't wanna forget about that, 02:24:03.020 |
because the consequences of mistakes are quite high, 02:24:12.180 |
Like so if I really like sleeping with my partner, 02:24:16.940 |
but I get one chance to sleep with this other person, 02:24:20.660 |
like, well, of course I should indulge in that, 02:24:25.500 |
But this person, my partner, might interpret that as, 02:24:30.140 |
oh, so you're more interested in her than me, 02:24:39.220 |
why would you open yourself up to that level of chaos? 02:24:44.580 |
So it's a kind of intimate human chess of sorts. 02:24:53.140 |
- Well, we gotta, how do we get on threesomes? 02:25:02.180 |
Yeah, I think the way that this becomes an issue 02:25:07.180 |
is why would you have a non-monogamous relationship? 02:25:23.020 |
- I mean, you've said that this idea of soulmates 02:25:45.940 |
'cause sometimes now people don't get that reference anymore. 02:25:51.020 |
when I try to teach negotiation to young lawyers 02:26:01.820 |
- Yeah, why is that scene the one that really? 02:26:14.300 |
And he owns, his girl is Patricia Arquette, right? 02:26:18.780 |
And Christian Slater's character, the protagonist, 02:26:25.060 |
that he no longer owns this girl, Alabama is her name. 02:26:48.300 |
And he's got Chinese food laid out in front of him. 02:26:56.140 |
And Gary Oldman says, "Do you want some Chinese food?" 02:26:59.100 |
And Christian Slater's sort of taken aback by the question. 02:27:09.420 |
And Gary Oldman says, "You know you fucked up, right?" 02:27:31.180 |
And so I think that scene summarizes how in negotiation, 02:27:42.340 |
and they're like, "Well, we'll see you in court." 02:27:49.820 |
in the jujitsu community, I know some dangerous people. 02:28:00.460 |
And they're the calmest guys you ever meet in your life. 02:28:06.220 |
"Oh, yeah, don't worry about it, man, it's okay." 02:28:22.980 |
there's this current of like they were made for each other. 02:28:26.620 |
- I think there's a distinction between the feeling 02:28:34.500 |
I think what that just means is there's a lot 02:28:39.740 |
I love them intellectually, I love them sexually, 02:28:53.020 |
Like we view, we have politically similar ideas. 02:28:55.900 |
Like these are all, or we have totally opposite ones, 02:29:00.300 |
Like I've always joked that like finding someone 02:29:12.740 |
And also me being like, no, no, no, come on, come back, 02:29:19.460 |
Like we're good for each other, it's barefoot in the park. 02:29:24.260 |
So what I have an issue with is that the definition 02:29:28.900 |
of soulmate that I think is sold to so many people now 02:29:32.940 |
is this idea that if your partner is disappointing to you 02:29:42.140 |
vocabulary companion, they're not the perfect roommate, 02:29:45.780 |
they're not the perfect lover, they're not the, 02:29:57.580 |
Like if I go to a restaurant and eat 10 courses 02:30:10.420 |
how dare I say, well, that wasn't the right restaurant. 02:30:24.620 |
It's impossible to have someone who never lets you down 02:30:30.980 |
And to create the idea or expectation in anyone 02:30:36.820 |
never disappoint you, never not know what to say 02:30:53.740 |
I'll either talk to them or send them a text or call them 02:30:56.140 |
and I'll say, I wish I knew the perfect thing to say 02:31:05.580 |
Like, I know that, you know, I don't say that part, 02:31:10.820 |
Like, but if there was a perfect thing to say, 02:31:13.860 |
Like, love to me is not that you never let this person down, 02:31:16.740 |
it's that you never wanna let this person down. 02:31:29.420 |
I will hurt you, but I never want to hurt you. 02:31:33.660 |
When I hurt you, it will be my insecurity, my stupidity, 02:31:47.500 |
Like, I will, by my stupidity, say the wrong thing 02:31:53.580 |
that you didn't want me to, but it won't be intentional. 02:32:06.020 |
just like the 10-course meal, that over time, 02:32:08.980 |
there's a kind of convergence towards perfection. 02:32:13.140 |
And along the way, there's the rose-colored glasses 02:32:20.460 |
it's probably destructive just to really internalize 02:32:26.860 |
the idea of soulmate because then any imperfections 02:32:39.060 |
It just feels, I feel like when you see a couple 02:32:43.700 |
that's 90 years old and they've been together 02:33:02.220 |
all the pain they've endured and struggled together. 02:33:09.660 |
a whole bunch of times, probably let each other down, 02:33:29.200 |
And they're human and they still love each other. 02:33:44.920 |
How much, and having mentioned Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, 02:33:48.520 |
how much fighting do you think is okay in a relationship? 02:33:57.100 |
such that they don't escalate to that disconnection? 02:34:08.500 |
I have, even on my phone, I have some recordings. 02:34:25.340 |
that they can record the other person and know it. 02:34:27.500 |
And I listen to the way people speak to their, 02:34:30.620 |
first of all, I listen to the way people speak 02:35:06.300 |
I would feel so betrayed, that they just so brutal. 02:35:10.300 |
I can't imagine speaking to someone that way, 02:35:13.860 |
like say, you just, such vicious insults to someone. 02:35:18.140 |
But I understand that's how some people communicate perhaps. 02:35:32.420 |
how much sex is enough sex in the relationship? 02:35:36.180 |
It depends on the two people and their individual tastes. 02:35:41.980 |
But what's problematic is when there is a disconnect 02:36:03.000 |
are both talking to their respective therapists 02:36:05.040 |
about the relationship, but it's like a split screen. 02:36:09.500 |
And she says, "I mean, we have sex all the time. 02:36:21.580 |
It really is this, they both know the same data, 02:36:28.680 |
And I think the question you have to start asking is, 02:36:33.680 |
Steve Harvey actually once said something funny to me. 02:36:39.100 |
Success is where you are in relation to where you started. 02:36:41.980 |
He says, "'Cause if success is where you are, 02:36:46.580 |
Or maybe Ilan's got us all beat, I don't know. 02:36:49.000 |
But if it's where you are versus where you started, 02:36:52.300 |
'cause there's a lot of people that started on second 02:36:54.260 |
and started on third act like they hit a double. 02:37:00.540 |
Well, the first million is the hardest, so come on. 02:37:04.340 |
But I think the question of how much sex were we having 02:37:11.940 |
'cause that's like we couldn't keep our hands off each other 02:37:19.660 |
versus before the children, that might be worth looking at. 02:37:31.980 |
I don't know, I gotta, what do you compare it to? 02:37:48.020 |
Not that I'm not very interested in political concepts, 02:37:51.640 |
economic concepts, I just, I argue for a living. 02:37:55.220 |
So in my free time, I don't find argument that enjoyable. 02:38:00.220 |
When it's intense, I find discussion more interesting. 02:38:14.540 |
Bobcat Goldthwait, the comedian, very, very funny. 02:38:19.980 |
But he has this, I saw an interview with him once 02:38:23.060 |
where he said, "Yeah," he says, "I'm a comedian. 02:38:25.980 |
"People always come up to me and they're like, 02:38:27.000 |
"'Oh, you're a comedian, do you wanna hear a joke?'" 02:38:32.140 |
Like I haven't heard jokes all day, all night, 02:38:35.260 |
for years, that would be a real special occasion, yes. 02:38:42.900 |
I've been reading quite a bit about Robin Williams 02:38:47.500 |
and introspective and thoughtful and intellectual he was 02:38:51.060 |
and not really that humorous in his private life. 02:38:56.280 |
you know, that it is enjoyable to be the other thing. 02:39:02.180 |
One of the things I've always thought was very funny 02:39:14.100 |
who doesn't wear a suit every day for a living. 02:39:20.940 |
like they're going to a wedding or something, 02:39:22.940 |
they get like, "Oh my God, look at him," you know? 02:39:31.780 |
and a black t-shirt, but the rest of the time I wear a suit. 02:39:36.820 |
in every relationship I've been in since I was a lawyer, 02:39:51.780 |
Like, whereas the suit, they wouldn't even notice. 02:40:08.020 |
Like I imagine, you know, incredibly intelligent people 02:40:11.540 |
must love just watching stupid humor or having a dumb, 02:40:21.740 |
It's why like Rick and Morty, I think is brilliant 02:40:32.700 |
- Is there advice you can give to somebody like me 02:40:35.780 |
on how to interview well, how to do conversations well? 02:40:44.220 |
from the courtroom to this setting with complicated people? 02:40:51.580 |
I think what can be learned about interviewing 02:40:54.340 |
is the distillation, like what is most important? 02:41:01.420 |
When I hear a story that I have to present to a judge, 02:41:07.060 |
the good of their parenting, the bad of their parenting, 02:41:09.580 |
the good of the other parent, the bad of the other parent, 02:41:12.500 |
I have to sort of boil down what are the best examples 02:41:17.880 |
And then what greater principle do they speak to? 02:41:33.940 |
He's teaching you ways of thinking about concepts 02:41:44.860 |
I think they're like soulmates in the jujitsu world. 02:41:49.060 |
And then there's that element that you spoke to, 02:42:02.660 |
But yeah, I think it's really, really important 02:42:05.340 |
to think about, I have to know the other side's case 02:42:16.200 |
I have to map out a strategy that keeps those in mind. 02:42:35.200 |
Like I've learned, there's the simplest explanation 02:42:43.720 |
I think sextants would never attribute to strategy 02:42:48.080 |
that which could be attributed to stupidity or laziness. 02:42:57.200 |
And I'll go, wait, why didn't they file that? 02:42:59.160 |
Like tactically, what are they thinking I'm gonna do? 02:43:05.800 |
And the answer is like, they just didn't think to file it 02:43:21.920 |
and don't attribute to the other side, your constitution. 02:43:26.600 |
If I said that, I'd be saying it sarcastically. 02:43:29.660 |
If you said it, maybe you weren't saying it sarcastically. 02:43:38.360 |
- And for you, the audience is usually the judge? 02:43:42.960 |
That's the interesting thing about family law attorneys. 02:43:47.500 |
We just persuade there's a person in a black robe. 02:44:13.940 |
And you're talking about stuff they deal with. 02:44:19.240 |
I had a woman on the stand, an expert witness on the stand, 02:44:22.820 |
who was talking about the emotional and physical abuse 02:44:32.440 |
And this person had written a bunch of reports 02:44:41.000 |
And there's all of this information in the record 02:44:47.920 |
and like gaslighting and like really intense stuff 02:44:50.720 |
that this woman was doing to this seven-year-old. 02:44:53.260 |
And the judge was like vaguely paying attention 02:45:04.480 |
"do you think like if a person spanks a child, 02:45:07.820 |
She's like, "Well, like a person in general?" 02:45:12.080 |
Like, and by the way, if my adversary asked that question, 02:45:26.820 |
"are you saying like everybody who spanks child?" 02:45:31.520 |
And she's like, "What went on with your parents? 02:45:33.040 |
"Like, 'cause you're bringing some stuff here 02:45:36.380 |
"that's not, this is not what you're supposed to be. 02:45:46.600 |
- Well, I've noticed that, now, I don't have kids, 02:45:50.080 |
so I have a certain perspective on the world. 02:45:55.840 |
But I've noticed when I talk to people that have kids, 02:46:06.380 |
like it changes the landscape of the conversation. 02:46:12.380 |
- It's like, you're no longer this intellectual 02:46:15.440 |
that's like, "Well, there's this and there's this." 02:46:22.200 |
Anything that fucks with kids can like burn it to the ground. 02:46:36.560 |
Represent someone who's accused of child sexual abuse. 02:46:58.600 |
and everyone loses their goddamn mind immediately. 02:47:15.020 |
by really good things, the desire to protect the innocent, 02:47:51.140 |
- Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. 02:47:54.220 |
- I know, but if you dedicate yourself fully to the law, 02:48:07.140 |
who was very vehemently prosecuting a child sex abuse case 02:48:21.220 |
So the accusation was made and I came in right away. 02:48:31.300 |
and it's like they're already so far down a hole 02:48:34.740 |
they didn't even know they dug themselves into, you know? 02:48:37.620 |
So I got in very early on and I just kept saying, 02:48:43.060 |
I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't, 02:48:44.780 |
"we should both want this to be fair, done properly." 02:48:49.500 |
Like there's an expert, a well-respected expert 02:48:55.620 |
who their job is they're a validation expert. 02:48:59.740 |
They record the interviews with a hidden camera 02:49:05.860 |
there are very stringent standards that they follow 02:49:24.820 |
"see, this is the problem, like you wanna win. 02:49:53.260 |
I don't want a judge who doesn't understand evidence. 02:50:08.300 |
to feel deeply about children and protecting them, 02:50:32.200 |
- But still there's a human being in the judge, right? 02:50:40.700 |
- 'Cause you have to pay attention to the whole thing. 02:50:42.800 |
- You have to pay attention to the whole thing, 02:50:44.160 |
and everyone is trying to persuade you and lie to you. 02:50:59.320 |
and like, yeah, you gotta have an amazing bullshit detector. 02:51:01.760 |
I'm not saying they don't have a really hard job. 02:51:09.120 |
Like how do they sharpen the radar for bullshit? 02:51:12.720 |
- I think that they're assessing credibility, 02:51:19.280 |
I think you're supposed to develop it on the job. 02:51:22.000 |
- Do you have the data of who was lying in the end or not? 02:51:33.680 |
is I want to use examples of misrepresentations 02:51:43.320 |
Like I'm trying to extrapolate from the small, the large. 02:51:48.200 |
Like I'm trying to say, here's three times he lied, 02:51:54.800 |
we know human beings don't really work that way. 02:52:24.520 |
And then it was shown through text messages and things. 02:52:26.840 |
They clearly had an affair with the babysitter. 02:52:31.640 |
And they said, well, I didn't want that to come out. 02:52:48.160 |
By the way, it would have been good for your case. 02:52:50.640 |
Would have been good for your case for you to say, 02:52:56.120 |
I don't sleep with children, much less my own. 02:53:13.160 |
to just sit there and dispassionately sort of listen 02:53:30.240 |
I'm like, why did you ask that question that way? 02:53:33.840 |
When you object, you bring more attention to it. 02:53:41.040 |
for like John Donahue to watch two white belts spar. 02:53:44.080 |
Like, why are you doing, wow, my God, what are you doing? 02:53:52.520 |
And as a judge, it must just be unbelievable. 02:54:01.240 |
I mean, no one's ever happy to be spending time 02:54:09.720 |
they're defending you against the maelstrom of injustice 02:54:16.080 |
And maybe you're acquitted and then you're like, 02:54:25.680 |
You do a will, like you help them make you feel secure. 02:54:28.000 |
Like at best, I'm a representative of a chapter 02:54:35.080 |
I have a friend who's a Juilliard-trained classical pianist 02:54:43.440 |
because his piano required a certain level of humidity. 02:54:50.920 |
And we went out to dinner and then we came back to his place 02:54:53.880 |
and he said, man, this is the most depressing $15,000 02:54:59.880 |
And he said, 'cause there's nothing different. 02:55:12.000 |
you don't really have anything to show for it. 02:55:17.320 |
'Cause one of the things I think that's interesting 02:55:18.680 |
about divorce is in our increasingly performative society, 02:55:29.680 |
It didn't matter that it was not gonna be popular. 02:55:41.760 |
And that's fine because we live in a society now 02:55:44.060 |
where everybody's just, oh yes, I meant to do that. 02:55:49.960 |
You wouldn't, you break up in a relationship, 02:55:56.260 |
We were just like, you know, we were having fun. 02:55:58.520 |
It wasn't, we were never gonna be happily ever after. 02:56:28.520 |
And so for me, I think people look at a divorce lawyer 02:56:31.840 |
and they just go, yeah, like this is this horrible chapter 02:56:45.480 |
The things you do to protect your client sometimes 02:56:52.460 |
but really they're just trying to shore up a defense. 02:57:00.840 |
well, are you sure that they're not doing this? 02:57:08.200 |
I'm just trying, like we get a reputation, divorce lawyers, 02:57:18.520 |
you're gonna start a lot of gunfights, right? 02:57:26.680 |
Like there are plenty of people that are bad lawyers 02:57:30.000 |
and they stoke up conflict because it jacks up fees. 02:57:40.040 |
But good lawyers, like good experienced divorce lawyers, 02:57:57.640 |
So why don't we just agree right now to X, Y, Z? 02:58:01.120 |
- So you wanna minimize the number of bullets. 02:58:03.240 |
- It's like the two, it's like a "Moyamada Mishashi." 02:58:05.560 |
You know, it's like the two swordsmen who see each other 02:58:12.380 |
and they know who won and who lost and they walk away. 02:58:18.280 |
You know, it's like when you watch high-level chess 02:58:22.040 |
and someone resigns and you go, wait, what happened? 02:58:24.880 |
He didn't win and you go, no, no, the other guy won. 02:58:34.160 |
- Can you speak to some recent high-profile divorces? 02:58:44.400 |
I mean, I don't know him, I'm not involved in the case. 02:58:46.080 |
- By the way, "Yellowstone" is just so great. 02:58:48.520 |
- And I hope Matthew McConaughey, who I've gotten to know, 02:58:55.960 |
He's just born for the role, frankly, but anyway. 02:59:03.680 |
because Kevin Costner had one of the most expensive, 02:59:10.240 |
like he gave a huge payout to his first wife. 02:59:30.000 |
And now it appears by all acknowledged reports 02:59:37.480 |
And the argument now is over what is child support, 02:59:47.200 |
- So it seems like the prenup worked, actually. 02:59:53.900 |
I don't know that in the Hollywood stock market 03:00:03.560 |
"Hey, the best years of that guy's career were behind him." 03:00:15.080 |
And it's like, holy cow, did he knock that out of the park? 03:00:56.200 |
But like the way he said it, it wasn't lawyer advice. 03:01:11.240 |
even the public nature of it to like throwing jabs or. 03:01:15.280 |
- Well, Laura, his lawyer is actually notorious 03:01:17.960 |
for like not speaking to the press about cases 03:01:33.520 |
I don't think there's any good to come of it. 03:01:42.920 |
to take it to the broader principle you just brought up. 03:01:50.560 |
I have to say, when I first got divorced many years ago, 03:01:57.560 |
It's one of my first dates as a divorced man. 03:02:04.920 |
And we were having dinner and it was going quite well. 03:02:07.520 |
And it was one of those things where I was like, 03:02:12.040 |
oh, there's gonna be this thing at this museum, 03:02:15.080 |
And she's like, oh yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. 03:02:17.560 |
maybe that will be the next thing we do together. 03:02:19.880 |
And she was like, yeah, we should go next weekend. 03:02:21.280 |
Like the kids are with the asshole, so we can go. 03:02:27.720 |
And I just went, oh yeah, no, this isn't good. 03:02:30.760 |
Like, I'm not, you're referring to the father of your kids 03:02:34.540 |
Like, we're already, I'm walking into something here 03:02:37.240 |
that I don't know that I wanna be involved in. 03:02:44.640 |
he dated some of the most beautiful women in Hollywood 03:02:52.840 |
And none of them ever talked bad about him in the press. 03:02:57.840 |
They all were like, oh my God, he's such a great guy, 03:03:12.280 |
they would say like, so you dated Penelope Cruz. 03:03:17.000 |
And he'd go, Penelope, that's just a special lady. 03:03:24.720 |
She's just a wonderful, what a wonderful woman. 03:03:27.520 |
I'm just so blessed to have the time with her. 03:03:31.680 |
And I would think to myself, I'm like, you're a genius. 03:03:36.120 |
Because like, he'd never came off as petty, spiteful, bitter, 03:03:42.200 |
He just came off as like, just dignified, strong, 03:03:50.240 |
it left the viewer with the impression that like, 03:03:59.400 |
And you think to yourself, like, God, that guy, 03:04:04.440 |
Whereas if he got into like, the whole, you know, 03:04:12.080 |
- The funny thing about him just having interacted 03:04:15.320 |
he's in the Rogan school of thought, I think, 03:04:22.040 |
Now, his parents were, as he's spoken about a bunch, 03:04:27.120 |
They got divorced and remarried and just insane. 03:04:36.840 |
He just seems cool as a cucumber, like, always. 03:04:41.840 |
But you know, even if it's internally not rolling off, 03:04:47.720 |
there is value in just rising above it in your discourse. 03:04:58.880 |
Like, people say this to me all the time, clients. 03:05:00.520 |
They're like, you know, why did you tell your child 03:05:12.560 |
Yes, babe, I'm gonna die and daddy's gonna die. 03:05:14.840 |
And then someday the earth's gonna hurl into the sun 03:05:18.640 |
Like, that's not, you lie to your kids all the time. 03:05:24.600 |
and hopefully it's nothing serious and you won't die. 03:05:28.360 |
You tell them that Santa Claus exists when he does, 03:05:38.360 |
You don't like your ex-husband, but it's their father. 03:05:42.800 |
Oh, daddy took me to meet his new girlfriend, Kiki. 03:05:47.280 |
And she helped me do my hair and she did my makeup. 03:06:07.080 |
- I mean, I'm very, Tom Waits has that song, "Lie to Me." 03:06:15.920 |
- But Tom Waits also believes that God's a way on business. 03:06:20.640 |
- And who are the ones that we left in charge? 03:06:48.000 |
I think, I've seen his public interviews over the years 03:06:52.160 |
with Letterman, and I think he just, he is the poetry. 03:07:02.880 |
Maynard James Keenan, like these are artists that like, 03:07:08.080 |
I think they want the art to speak for itself. 03:07:12.760 |
They would like to be less in, they don't want you to, 03:07:20.160 |
that he, like this, he could not have been less interested 03:07:26.920 |
To the point where I think it was almost to the detriment 03:07:32.960 |
there's no surprise that those are three artists 03:07:43.960 |
Like, you can give me a page of a Cormac McCarthy novel, 03:07:51.640 |
or Tom Waits' voice, you know that that's them. 03:07:54.520 |
- Yeah, it's genius, genius eyes from the spotlight. 03:08:01.600 |
- Yeah, that does, I would like to hear that interview. 03:08:06.200 |
- And I'm just standing outside of that girl's house 03:08:10.280 |
yeah, just playing in your eyes, Peter Gabriel, yeah. 03:08:17.240 |
This whole idea of honesty in relationships is interesting. 03:08:27.300 |
but like, there's stuff you should be honest about, 03:08:31.760 |
and there's stuff maybe you don't need to be honest about. 03:08:35.240 |
So in the law, it is illegal to commit fraud. 03:08:40.240 |
Fraud is a material misrepresentation of fact. 03:08:43.980 |
But the law specifically says you're permitted 03:08:53.000 |
So, and that's the term that was used for it, puffery. 03:08:56.680 |
And puffery is when you are inflating something, 03:09:06.600 |
you're telling the truth, you know, like it's not, 03:09:09.640 |
you know, like if I say to you, this bottle of water, 03:09:15.760 |
and that's why you should pay me $50 for it, that's fraud. 03:09:18.840 |
But if I say this is the water that has been, 03:09:28.320 |
And so advertising, marketing is based on puffery. 03:09:43.760 |
Being totally candid is probably not a great idea. 03:10:05.960 |
Any heterosexual man who's ever been in a relationship 03:10:11.680 |
Or does, whatever, does this, do I look fat in this? 03:10:21.560 |
But there is, and if you say no, but it's true. 03:10:26.840 |
The concern she sees is a legitimate concern. 03:10:31.600 |
Do you lie and go, no, no, you look great in that. 03:10:40.880 |
That blue dress you have really compliments your body 03:10:49.360 |
The cut of that dress is such that it doesn't flatter you. 03:11:11.240 |
you know that that's not how it's gonna go, right? 03:11:13.800 |
But so it's like if the woman says, I love you, 03:11:16.920 |
and you don't love her, don't say, I love you back. 03:11:19.280 |
You do the, oh, I have very strong feelings for you as well. 03:11:27.400 |
Yeah, I mean, I guess all of it requires skill 03:11:31.960 |
I think just being honest in quotes is not enough. 03:11:36.280 |
Well, it's not a specific enough instruction. 03:11:47.320 |
what are the things I should do to help my relationship? 03:12:05.040 |
Like acts of love, you should show your partner 03:12:09.000 |
Like what I say, what I do, we should have more sex? 03:12:13.080 |
Like people want measurable, specific things. 03:12:16.560 |
So that's why I tried in my book to be like very specific 03:12:19.440 |
about like things you can do, things you shouldn't do. 03:12:29.680 |
Like if you're dating someone or you're living with them 03:12:34.000 |
send a text, leave a note, just little, every day, 03:12:46.240 |
But we speak in these sort of like broader axioms, 03:12:49.600 |
these broader concepts that people just don't have any idea 03:12:56.680 |
where you talk about managing marital finances 03:13:00.680 |
Your mastery of the metaphor touches one's heart and soul. 03:13:06.800 |
You're Shakespeare of the 21st century, really. 03:13:10.880 |
- I don't know that Shakespeare would have brought anal up 03:13:20.080 |
you'll proceed carefully and have discussion in advance. 03:13:39.480 |
you should just dive into unless you're prepared for that 03:13:50.520 |
of a huge amount of stress in relationships, which is-- 03:13:57.640 |
I mean, it's aside from having painful conversations 03:14:02.480 |
about what you tried to do and were able to do 03:14:10.560 |
and then there's what's underneath the conversation. 03:14:22.840 |
and buying things and then creating stress on their partner. 03:14:26.820 |
There's the very human desire to make things seem effortless 03:14:33.560 |
when in fact it's causing tremendous financial stress. 03:14:36.160 |
And then when the dam breaks, it breaks hard. 03:14:39.840 |
Finance is tricky stuff and you could probably 03:14:52.960 |
And how you handle your finances is informed by 03:15:05.240 |
- And there's interesting power dynamics in play. 03:15:36.360 |
that is the reason why the marriage fell apart. 03:15:44.680 |
- Well, you're a fascinating human being on many levels 03:15:50.960 |
and you've talked to me about waking up early. 03:15:56.240 |
And for you, that's what, late afternoon, I suppose. 03:16:08.600 |
- Well, I woke, it's three o'clock local time. 03:16:19.680 |
- Like my most productive writing and speaking 03:16:34.600 |
I wish I didn't, but I do check my phone first thing 03:16:37.920 |
'cause I wanna see if any emergencies came in 03:16:45.720 |
our definition of emergency can be very serious. 03:16:53.320 |
It's a police being involved in a domestic violence. 03:16:56.160 |
And so they can be like time-sensitive things. 03:17:01.000 |
I think they're hiring, they want someone responsive. 03:17:05.800 |
And I go to bed early because I get up early. 03:17:12.360 |
I don't think I've seen 9 p.m. even on New Year's Eve. 03:17:19.680 |
Usually, even if there's something that's time-sensitive, 03:17:27.840 |
I have espresso, black espresso, which I enjoy very much. 03:17:38.640 |
I've changed my habits now that I'm in my early 50s. 03:17:42.880 |
It used to be much more intensive weight training 03:17:56.000 |
- I do, I still have some pictures of videos. 03:18:00.880 |
- You can, in stories, when you talk about it, 03:18:02.840 |
you can exaggerate how much you've actually lifted. 03:18:04.720 |
- That's true, but then you can't back it up. 03:18:10.760 |
it's just puffing, mere puffery at that point. 03:18:15.920 |
And then I try to work out for like a good hour. 03:18:21.420 |
I think when I don't work out, it's difficult. 03:18:24.320 |
I had a group of guys that I would do jujitsu with 03:18:29.560 |
They were cops who would either be starting a shift 03:18:34.120 |
And we would train together, just do like an open mat. 03:18:36.800 |
And it was at 5 a.m. till six, and that was heaven. 03:18:39.120 |
I love training jujitsu first thing in the morning if I can. 03:18:49.160 |
or if I don't have access to a cold plunge, a cold shower. 03:18:54.500 |
And it's usually a very uncontroversial, simple breakfast. 03:18:58.240 |
I like to eat, I eat like slow carb, Tim Ferriss type style. 03:19:10.240 |
from let's say six or seven until nine, 9.30, 03:19:17.480 |
- So drafting is like writing up different documents. 03:19:20.000 |
- Right, writing prenups, writing separation agreements, 03:19:23.200 |
writing settlement proposals, writing motions 03:19:25.440 |
for the court, pretrial memos, which is like research 03:19:28.420 |
that I wanna present to a judge that supports my arguments. 03:19:31.780 |
I do drafting, I review documents that the attorneys 03:19:34.440 |
who work for me have drafted and refine them. 03:19:37.880 |
And then court is usually from nine o'clock until noon. 03:19:40.880 |
And if we're on trial, then it's a whole different pace 03:19:56.280 |
Conferences is you go in, you make oral argument, 03:20:01.200 |
It's like everybody's just shouting allegations 03:20:02.980 |
back and forth and making temporary arguments pretrial. 03:20:07.360 |
It's kind of the foreplay of the trial, right? 03:20:14.360 |
Like while you're doing it, it's exhilarating. 03:20:20.080 |
as the night before a trial, and I never sleep as well 03:20:25.000 |
Because when I am on trial, I am speaking, listening, 03:20:30.000 |
watching the judge closely to see what they're reacting to 03:20:35.720 |
and when they're paying attention or not paying attention, 03:20:38.880 |
watching opposing counsel and the opposing party, 03:20:41.480 |
like when is the opposing party writing a little note 03:20:47.400 |
My client is trying to pass me notes half the time 03:20:52.040 |
I'm trying to adjust what I'm doing strategically 03:20:54.920 |
based on the objections that the judge is ruling on. 03:21:07.400 |
Conferences is harder because at least with a trial, 03:21:20.040 |
for the last several hours while I was on trial, 03:21:25.040 |
So it's like, hey, where's that settlement proposal on this? 03:21:26.880 |
Hey, she just did this, we need to file a motion. 03:21:29.220 |
So now it's like, okay, I have an hour to eat 03:21:32.220 |
and to answer all of this in some preliminary way 03:21:35.840 |
and then I got to go back in and put 100% of my focus 03:21:42.680 |
is you find yourself in a place where I live my whole life 03:22:04.600 |
He's a district attorney and I'm very proud of him. 03:22:08.080 |
He gets to put bad guys in jail and he's very smart, 03:22:20.680 |
we were very close and we were talking and he said, 03:22:23.840 |
we were just talking about like the career in the law 03:22:31.200 |
at the end of the day, when like all your homework 03:22:37.920 |
okay, it's all done now and I'm gonna go home. 03:22:41.500 |
You'll never have that feeling ever again, ever. 03:22:46.940 |
You're just gonna every day go, all right, it's enough, 03:22:53.820 |
Because you could, with every one of these cases, 03:22:58.140 |
you could stay up 24 hours focusing just on it. 03:23:06.140 |
Like I'm done for now, I've done what I could do today 03:23:08.740 |
and now I'm going to sit and read for a half an hour. 03:23:11.860 |
I'm gonna watch this show for a half an hour. 03:23:27.900 |
around 5.30, six o'clock and I have something to eat 03:23:36.460 |
and I'm usually in bed by 7.30 and asleep by eight. 03:23:48.700 |
I trained martial arts from the time I was a little kid. 03:23:52.100 |
I took up Okinawan Goju karate and I did judo. 03:23:59.940 |
and I didn't have time for it and I didn't do it so much. 03:24:13.780 |
when you're a dude with kids close to middle age. 03:24:17.040 |
Or I can try to do something more productive. 03:24:20.980 |
And so I said, well, maybe I'll go back to martial arts. 03:24:29.500 |
at the same school after the Muay Thai class. 03:24:32.100 |
And I had been around the orbit of jiu-jitsu, 03:24:57.520 |
My first professor was Lou Ventolaro in New Jersey. 03:25:00.860 |
He's a Hoyler Gracie black belt, great teacher, 03:25:18.500 |
because it was a short walk to Marcelo's Academy. 03:25:25.460 |
it was Lou Ventolaro and then it's been Marcelo. 03:25:42.140 |
Marcos Tinoco was like his lasso guard stuff. 03:25:46.060 |
He was at Marcelo's for a long time and what a teacher. 03:25:52.660 |
is not based on a lack of quality instruction. 03:25:56.100 |
It's based on an inability to retain the information 03:26:20.060 |
and Marcelo's probably come close to perfecting it. 03:26:22.780 |
- Let me ask you, since you mentioned Gordon Ryan, 03:26:36.420 |
I'm actually seeing John Donahuer this evening. 03:26:38.820 |
- Okay, so he's, I mean, yeah, this is like-- 03:26:44.380 |
But anyway, apparently long ago, you mentioned Jersey. 03:26:48.740 |
There's a bit of a conflict between you and Gordon 03:26:54.020 |
and you mentioned to me offline that you love him 03:27:07.300 |
And of all the, we're talking about all these heavy topics 03:27:09.780 |
and this is probably the one that I find most, 03:27:14.500 |
But Gordon's a very, I think a very young man still. 03:27:22.740 |
'cause he's accomplished so much as an athlete 03:27:44.740 |
jujitsu wasn't, it's really exploded in the last 10 years, 03:27:52.540 |
There really weren't like jujitsu super fights 03:27:54.580 |
being sponsored, Jersey and New York in particular. 03:27:57.820 |
And I got involved in sponsoring some jujitsu super fights. 03:28:02.240 |
And I also got involved in sponsoring some jujitsu athletes. 03:28:06.700 |
And Gordon was a young part of the Donahoe Death Squad. 03:28:14.260 |
I was friends with John, still friends with John. 03:28:19.260 |
I actually don't know that I've still ever met. 03:28:27.780 |
some other fights with this particular promoter. 03:28:33.960 |
And it didn't involve anyone from Marcello's. 03:28:40.540 |
And I liked everybody in the Donahoe Death Squad. 03:28:46.020 |
I mean, everyone at Marcello's has such respect for John 03:28:59.740 |
It was like insane what they did, such innovation. 03:29:16.100 |
And that's not, I guess, chronologically that much older. 03:29:18.100 |
But generationally, I think it's quite a bit different. 03:29:21.220 |
And Gordon was smack talking with a guy who I, 03:29:25.280 |
about a guy who I was sponsor of, who I knew. 03:29:30.180 |
and had been through difficult things in his life. 03:29:32.740 |
And Gordon just said some nasty things about him. 03:29:39.700 |
of totally appropriate smack talking, looking at it now. 03:29:46.740 |
It's like part of his brand is to talk trash. 03:29:48.980 |
And I see now that that's like a Muhammad Ali thing. 03:29:51.540 |
At the time, I just didn't see it as what it was. 03:30:26.020 |
"Don't talk bad about a person who I financially sponsor. 03:30:30.660 |
And I think on Facebook, he like wrote some comments. 03:30:46.680 |
And I was talking to a young person this way, 03:30:50.380 |
who's like a little older than one of my kids. 03:30:52.700 |
And I just said these obnoxious things to him. 03:31:00.660 |
And, but I'd never really thought much about it again. 03:31:16.420 |
And every time Gordon would have a big victory, 03:31:19.740 |
'cause Gordon's victories are John's victories too. 03:31:28.600 |
And I just would say, "Hey, listen, congratulations. 03:31:30.520 |
And please pass on my congratulations to Gordon." 03:31:35.800 |
I have no way to contact him to apologize to him. 03:31:38.720 |
But, if Gordon hears this, I am profoundly sorry. 03:31:46.800 |
'cause I'm trying to get in your good graces. 03:31:48.400 |
I don't know that we'll ever meet each other. 03:32:15.240 |
What role does love play in the human condition? 03:32:19.040 |
- I mean, I think it's kind of everything, right? 03:32:50.380 |
which I like to believe are in some way connected, 03:32:59.600 |
look, I've always thought most of what men do, 03:33:16.120 |
So you can have nice things so that you can attract 03:33:21.860 |
You know, like a lot of things come down to that. 03:33:25.020 |
And even for like men, you know, like red pill, 03:33:27.780 |
you know, men who are like, yeah, I don't care about women. 03:33:32.460 |
Like for someone that's not interested in women, 03:33:37.140 |
who you're telling how much you don't care about women, 03:33:40.900 |
to attract a certain kind of woman, which I get, 03:33:49.220 |
and a person who destroys an idol are both idolaters. 03:33:59.260 |
So it's just such a splinter in people's mind, 03:34:09.600 |
I mean, you're spending some time in the rarefied air now 03:34:15.220 |
And I remember when I started out as a lawyer, 03:34:18.020 |
just doing like the regular, like the cop and the teacher 03:34:24.500 |
someday if I represent celebrities or wealthy CEOs, 03:34:38.460 |
The same kind of insecurities, the same kind of jealousy, 03:34:55.820 |
like mommy issues, daddy issues, like intimacy issues, 03:35:01.840 |
And just because you're really good at other things, 03:35:13.100 |
doctors, business people, and they suck at relationships. 03:35:26.500 |
and the skills that made you a good, you know, 03:35:34.620 |
But I'm just humbled by how we're called to it still. 03:35:47.900 |
we just keep putting the money on the table and playing. 03:35:51.700 |
Like we won't just quit, we just keep going, you know? 03:36:07.140 |
I don't know a lot of people that they played the hand, 03:36:18.580 |
I know people that are like, "Listen, I don't drink. 03:36:21.540 |
"I break out in handcuffs and hospital bills. 03:36:49.420 |
People are not gonna stop walking down that aisle. 03:36:55.620 |
with people that they probably should have thought through 03:36:57.940 |
whether they would have kids with that person or not. 03:37:04.840 |
It's this whole beautiful mess that we're all a part of. 03:37:13.780 |
- Yeah, and what a danger if we didn't, you know? 03:37:16.280 |
Like every, you hear about people like Alexander Hamilton 03:37:28.800 |
these two people should never have had a kid. 03:37:41.300 |
Like what a great, you can't ever say it's a mistake. 03:37:46.660 |
And I think that that's one of the things I like 03:37:51.900 |
and as almost looking at it like a spiritual practice. 03:37:54.420 |
I think you just don't know what is a blessing, 03:38:01.820 |
Like I, my father, I've spoken about this before publicly 03:38:09.900 |
My father's been in recovery now for seven years, I think. 03:38:18.100 |
and only got sober, you know, when I was in my 40s. 03:38:21.280 |
And a lot of the personality characteristics I have 03:38:27.380 |
are consistent with those of adult children of alcoholics, 03:38:31.260 |
you know, desire for control and control issues, 03:38:41.940 |
If I died tomorrow, man, I did more, learned more, 03:38:53.900 |
And if you said to me, how do you raise kids? 03:38:59.180 |
'cause like your kid's getting a lot of really good 03:39:20.220 |
I often have to say to my clients when they're like, 03:39:51.140 |
going through a divorce, I've actually had a theory, 03:39:54.340 |
which I've not said out loud, but I'll say it to you 03:40:16.500 |
like a good dose, like two and a half, three grams, 03:40:19.980 |
and have them do individual sessions with, you know, 03:40:31.720 |
and then have them do some kind of a session together 03:40:39.280 |
I actually think you could do transformative divorce work 03:40:42.840 |
because I have found myself and certainly the many people 03:40:46.240 |
that I've talked to who've had psilocybin experiences 03:40:50.040 |
and in particular, but any psychedelic experience, 03:41:04.280 |
and the divorce and conflict resolution space together, 03:41:08.400 |
that sort of psychopharmacological intervention on empathy, 03:41:13.400 |
one's empathy receptors or one's connectivity, 03:41:17.880 |
I think that could be radically transforming. 03:41:21.200 |
It would be logistically an absolute nightmare. 03:41:23.280 |
It would never get done from a legal standpoint, 03:41:30.360 |
because I think the more that you can bring people 03:41:39.360 |
that comes from many people's psychedelic experiences, 03:41:49.640 |
and disconnect they're having with their partner. 03:41:52.440 |
- So really lean into the, like use this brink of divorce 03:41:57.440 |
as a kind of catalyst for doing a lot of soul searching, 03:42:07.040 |
is it was this idea that this is a opportunity 03:42:14.880 |
Like it was an opportunity for people to say, 03:42:21.720 |
And it was to be part of the architecture of that. 03:42:33.080 |
which I hope is filled with joy and abundance 03:42:35.360 |
and peace and love and real love, real satisfaction. 03:42:38.560 |
Like my ex-wife is married for over a decade now 03:42:54.320 |
you'd go, well, no one could love both of these guys. 03:43:00.480 |
Like I am impatient, fast talking, like skip to the end, 03:43:08.960 |
he's like patient and they're perfect together. 03:43:12.520 |
And I can say that as someone who loves her and loved her, 03:43:37.600 |
just means it wasn't the right one for this person. 03:43:43.040 |
Like she found her lid, I want her to find her lid, 03:43:48.760 |
and we just need to match them with the proper lid. 03:43:53.360 |
- Yeah, man, this is such a romantic few hours 03:43:58.120 |
And there's even a candle burning over there. 03:44:08.760 |
please check out our sponsors in the description. 03:44:11.240 |
And now let me leave you with some words from Rumi. 03:44:21.120 |
within yourself that you have built against it. 03:44:24.920 |
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.