Georges St-Pierre: The Science of Fighting

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with George St. Pierre,

00:00:03.000 | considered by many to be the greatest fighter

00:00:05.620 | in the history of UFC and MMA,

00:00:08.240 | but even more than that,

00:00:09.600 | one of the greatest martial artists ever.

00:00:13.360 | Quick mention of our sponsors,

00:00:15.160 | Allform, ExpressVPN, Blinkist, Theragun,

00:00:19.720 | and The Information.

00:00:21.680 | Check them out in the description to support this podcast.

00:00:24.980 | As a side note, let me say that getting the chance

00:00:28.240 | to hang out with George, talk to him on the podcast,

00:00:31.240 | record a quick self-defense video that I'll release soon,

00:00:35.640 | all while both of us wearing suits

00:00:38.320 | was one of the most memorable days of my life.

00:00:41.440 | In setting all this up, I talked to Joe Rogan,

00:00:43.680 | and originally we couldn't schedule a chat

00:00:45.720 | with him and George on the JRE,

00:00:48.320 | which allowed me to pretend for a brief time

00:00:51.520 | that George came down to Austin just to see me.

00:00:54.860 | Who the hell am I?

00:00:57.000 | In truth, him and Joe probably conspired

00:00:59.080 | to make me feel special, but that's the point.

00:01:01.740 | It's inspiring to see George and Joe,

00:01:04.520 | who are at the top of their field,

00:01:06.520 | treat others as equals, as human beings,

00:01:09.320 | no matter who they are, even silly Russians in a suit.

00:01:13.640 | Meeting George was an honor for me beyond words.

00:01:17.760 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast,

00:01:20.320 | and here's my conversation

00:01:22.040 | with my longtime martial arts hero,

00:01:24.840 | and now my friend, Mr. George St-Pierre.

00:01:28.440 | In your fighting career,

00:01:30.720 | were you more motivated by the love of winning

00:01:34.600 | or the fear and hatred of losing?

00:01:37.820 | - I like to win better than I hate to lose,

00:01:41.720 | because if it would not have been the case,

00:01:44.640 | I would never have fought in the first place

00:01:46.760 | because I don't like to fight at all.

00:01:49.360 | - But you talked about the anxiety,

00:01:52.680 | the fear that you experienced leading up to a fight.

00:01:55.240 | So to you, ultimately, the reason to go through

00:01:59.280 | that difficult process is because it feels damn good

00:02:04.000 | to have your hand raised?

00:02:05.260 | - There is that.

00:02:07.920 | There is also the fact that martial art

00:02:12.080 | had been introduced when I was very young,

00:02:14.840 | and it's probably the best thing I can do in my life.

00:02:18.160 | Fighting, that's what I do best.

00:02:21.800 | Also, it provides me of freedom,

00:02:25.960 | of access of things that most of people do not have,

00:02:30.960 | but all that as a price, and a lot of money.

00:02:35.040 | I made a lot of money, of course, with it.

00:02:37.140 | I was maybe predisposed with certain abilities.

00:02:42.280 | I met incredible mentors throughout my life.

00:02:47.300 | I worked really hard,

00:02:50.880 | and of course, I had a lot of chances.

00:02:53.040 | The stars were all aligned.

00:02:54.800 | And in order to keep those advantages of freedom,

00:03:00.840 | money, and glory, and access of things

00:03:05.640 | that most people don't have,

00:03:06.600 | and have this dream life that I have,

00:03:10.860 | I had to sacrifice myself and fight in order to keep it.

00:03:14.440 | It's very hard to understand

00:03:18.520 | because I also believe most fighters are not like me.

00:03:22.280 | A lot of guys, because I corner a lot of guys,

00:03:26.560 | and it seems to me that they love their job.

00:03:28.960 | They enjoyed to go fight in the cage.

00:03:32.960 | I love to train.

00:03:34.040 | I love the science of fighting, the sport,

00:03:37.840 | to be in good shape,

00:03:39.000 | the confidence that training in mixed martial art give me.

00:03:42.480 | However, I do not like the feeling of uncertainty,

00:03:47.520 | the stress that I have,

00:03:50.480 | not knowing if I will be badly injured,

00:03:53.840 | or humiliated, or winning the fight.

00:03:58.840 | It's, to me, unbearable.

00:04:00.760 | And that's what takes the most out of me.

00:04:04.320 | More than brain damage, more than anything,

00:04:06.480 | that's what takes the most out of me.

00:04:08.920 | - But the thing you get from it is the freedom

00:04:11.520 | that you get because of the money,

00:04:15.600 | but because of the celebrity,

00:04:16.920 | because of everything that comes with it.

00:04:18.760 | So you can be the best version of yourself

00:04:20.720 | because of fighting.

00:04:21.640 | But at the same time, you've said that,

00:04:24.600 | quote, "I don't believe there's pleasure in life.

00:04:27.200 | "I believe there's only a relief from pain.

00:04:29.920 | "We have to suffer to be on top."

00:04:32.240 | So isn't there something to just the suffering in itself,

00:04:35.560 | just doing really difficult shit just to get to the top?

00:04:39.800 | - To explain that, and so people can relate to it,

00:04:42.600 | 'cause not everybody's a fighter,

00:04:45.320 | I think the best example I can give is,

00:04:50.320 | let's say you haven't eat for a long time

00:04:53.560 | and you're craving, right?

00:04:56.040 | So you're suffering.

00:04:57.280 | And then when it's time to eat,

00:04:59.880 | finally, you're about to eat your favorite dish.

00:05:02.920 | It's gonna taste so much better.

00:05:06.680 | So that's why I believe there's always

00:05:09.720 | some sort of sacrifice before the pleasure.

00:05:12.480 | And the more sacrifice you do,

00:05:14.760 | like they say in fighting,

00:05:17.320 | the bigger the risk, bigger is the reward.

00:05:20.360 | And I feel that's how it is for me.

00:05:24.160 | - Yeah, I feel that with,

00:05:25.560 | I've started fasting a little bit

00:05:27.240 | in the past couple of years.

00:05:28.880 | And there's nothing as amazing as a delicious meal

00:05:33.040 | or anything, actually anything,

00:05:34.600 | any food when you haven't eaten for several days.

00:05:38.480 | It's kind of incredible.

00:05:40.440 | And it's not incredible in the simple way

00:05:43.080 | of finally I get to eat.

00:05:45.760 | You get to truly experience the beauty

00:05:48.960 | of what it is to be alive.

00:05:51.720 | Like that little piece of food,

00:05:53.480 | you see all the flavors,

00:05:55.760 | you feel just the experience of it

00:05:58.960 | is ultimately of gratitude

00:06:01.840 | of how awesome it is to be alive.

00:06:04.160 | But when you eat many times a day

00:06:05.880 | and you're pigging out,

00:06:07.640 | you don't get to experience that.

00:06:08.920 | And it's fascinating.

00:06:10.040 | It's really like fasting

00:06:12.320 | is one of the most accessible things for people,

00:06:15.480 | I think to experience that kind of

00:06:18.320 | pairing of hardship to pleasure.

00:06:21.440 | - I agree.

00:06:22.280 | And in my case, it changed my life on a good way.

00:06:26.320 | I cannot recommend it to people

00:06:27.960 | because everybody is different.

00:06:30.040 | But after my, to fight Michael Bisping,

00:06:34.360 | my last fight was against the champion

00:06:38.080 | in the heavier weight class that I used to compete at.

00:06:41.320 | So I thought that if I would gain weight,

00:06:46.080 | it would increase my performance.

00:06:47.920 | And I struggled a lot to gain weight.

00:06:50.440 | I gained a little about eight to 10 pounds.

00:06:54.000 | Normally I walk around 185 pounds.

00:06:56.360 | And for that fight, I was walking around 195.

00:06:59.840 | However, I forced myself to eat like six times a day.

00:07:04.120 | I was on a very strict diet.

00:07:07.960 | And it didn't feel right to me

00:07:10.520 | because I feel like I was carrying,

00:07:14.640 | like a little bit like I was carrying a bag on my shoulder.

00:07:18.200 | And I think it was a bad idea for me

00:07:22.240 | because when I did the weigh-in

00:07:26.640 | and I went on a scale at 185,

00:07:29.840 | I couldn't go back to my initial weight that was 195,

00:07:34.200 | that I worked so hard for several months to get there.

00:07:37.680 | So I was 190 pound, but I couldn't get back.

00:07:42.000 | And the morning of the fight, I got sick.

00:07:45.320 | I had like, we didn't know what it was in the beginning

00:07:49.520 | because in order to know, to find out what it was,

00:07:53.840 | I needed to do what they call a colonoscopy.

00:07:55.880 | They put a camera inside of you.

00:07:57.280 | And to do that, they give you something that make,

00:08:02.280 | that empty you.

00:08:03.800 | And I was trying to gain weight, not to lose weight.

00:08:06.920 | So I told myself, I'm gonna wait after the fight,

00:08:10.440 | whatever it is, because it was pretty bad.

00:08:12.880 | It was blood.

00:08:13.720 | And I didn't know what I was.

00:08:15.120 | I was very concerned.

00:08:16.840 | I thought I had maybe cancer.

00:08:18.040 | I was freaking out.

00:08:19.120 | So I said, I'm gonna do that fight.

00:08:22.680 | And then after right away, I'm gonna make a checkup.

00:08:25.120 | So I did the fight.

00:08:26.200 | Everything went well.

00:08:27.240 | I won the fight.

00:08:28.080 | I went back home.

00:08:28.920 | I did a colonoscopy and I got diagnosed with ulcer colitis.

00:08:33.600 | Then I got on very severe medication to get better.

00:08:37.680 | And I'm not a big fan of medication.

00:08:40.040 | I always trying to look for more natural way to get better.

00:08:45.040 | And I found out about fasting and it really changed my life.

00:08:50.640 | I met Dr. Jason Fong, who's one of the,

00:08:55.360 | one of the world authority of fasting.

00:08:59.160 | He treat diabetes patient with fasting.

00:09:02.520 | And he gave me a program of fasting

00:09:04.320 | and it really changed my life.

00:09:08.240 | And right away, what I did is I went in a CAT scan

00:09:13.240 | to see the difference,

00:09:14.560 | because it was right after my fight with Michael Bisping.

00:09:17.240 | And I did the CAT scan.

00:09:19.160 | So I had my muscle mass, bone density,

00:09:24.120 | fat percentage, water retention.

00:09:25.960 | It's pretty amazing.

00:09:26.920 | It can show you which harm has more muscle than the other.

00:09:30.520 | It's very precise.

00:09:32.000 | And I did it like two months after.

00:09:35.440 | So I started doing time restricted eating, 16/8,

00:09:40.440 | but right away when I started, I did three days water fast.

00:09:45.640 | And the Dr. Jason Fong says,

00:09:47.600 | because I like to train during those days,

00:09:49.680 | I consume Himalayan salt to make sure,

00:09:54.320 | because when you sweat, there's a lot of minerals

00:09:56.640 | to make sure you don't depleted your mineral.

00:10:00.000 | And when I compared the two result in the CAT scan,

00:10:04.280 | I found out my biggest concern was to lose muscle mass.

00:10:08.240 | I found out that I did not lose muscle mass.

00:10:10.760 | Instead of losing it, it increased a little bit.

00:10:13.880 | Even though my weight on the scale was lighter,

00:10:18.280 | I kept the same muscle mass, even increases a little bit.

00:10:22.240 | My bone density increases a little bit.

00:10:25.640 | My water retention is the biggest thing that decrease.

00:10:30.160 | So my inflammation and my fat percentage.

00:10:33.600 | So basically by looking at the data,

00:10:36.560 | I found out that by eating so much,

00:10:40.840 | trying to gain weight to fight my cold,

00:10:42.800 | I only increases my water retention, which is not good

00:10:47.280 | because it's like dead weight and inflammation on you.

00:10:50.800 | - So what was the actual process of fasting?

00:10:54.280 | You said 16, eight time restricted,

00:10:57.720 | so intermittent fasting,

00:10:59.520 | but you also mentioned the three day water fast.

00:11:03.680 | What did that feel like?

00:11:05.200 | And you also said training during the three day.

00:11:08.000 | - Yes. - How did that feel?

00:11:09.440 | Can you give me some details of-

00:11:10.720 | - Absolutely. - This is fascinating.

00:11:12.280 | - So I do three days water fast, four time a year.

00:11:17.280 | - Nice. - For me, I do it,

00:11:20.720 | everybody is different,

00:11:21.560 | but for me, I do it after New Year's

00:11:24.480 | because during the holidays,

00:11:25.960 | that's when I eat bad foods and I drink.

00:11:29.320 | I see it more like a cleansing,

00:11:31.600 | like a detox, so to speak.

00:11:34.080 | - Mental too, like psychological.

00:11:35.480 | - Yes.

00:11:36.320 | I do it after the New Year's, right before the summer,

00:11:40.680 | cut for the beach if I have to.

00:11:43.120 | After the summer, because in the summer,

00:11:44.920 | I've been partying a little bit sometime,

00:11:47.400 | let myself go and right before the holidays.

00:11:51.520 | And I've tried, the doctor, Fong, he says to me,

00:11:55.320 | he said, "George, everybody's different

00:11:57.520 | because I'm a very active person

00:11:59.280 | and everybody has a different genetic."

00:12:00.840 | So for me, I feel that three days is the sweet spot

00:12:05.840 | because I still train during those three days.

00:12:08.720 | The first day, the first two days, I don't change nothing.

00:12:11.640 | I train on my regular schedule.

00:12:14.680 | However, on the third day, I modify a little bit.

00:12:19.280 | I do something more easy and that's how I do it.

00:12:24.280 | And I've tried before because when I say three days

00:12:29.600 | is my sweet spot, I've tried to go up to five days.

00:12:33.560 | But the problem is after my third days,

00:12:35.880 | I found out that I had a big problem sleeping.

00:12:39.000 | I get into a hyperactive mode.

00:12:41.800 | They call that the hunter-gatherer mode.

00:12:46.840 | Your brain, I mean, it's amazing.

00:12:48.600 | Your creativity is at its peak,

00:12:51.320 | but you cannot sleep very well.

00:12:53.080 | And sleeping, for me, I think it's very important.

00:12:56.160 | So that's why I do three days.

00:12:57.640 | For me, it's my sweet spot.

00:12:59.240 | - That's interesting.

00:13:00.080 | You're right.

00:13:00.900 | It's the four or five days when you start.

00:13:02.840 | See, sleep is not important for me.

00:13:04.720 | So the creativity is really important.

00:13:07.440 | So it's very interesting the places your mind goes

00:13:10.320 | after a few days.

00:13:11.560 | You're right.

00:13:12.400 | But I mean, what does it do to your mind?

00:13:16.760 | So you mentioned your body likes it.

00:13:18.800 | In terms of training,

00:13:19.960 | do you find that it helps you focus and think?

00:13:23.840 | I mean, you're one of the great strategic thinkers

00:13:27.480 | in terms of martial arts.

00:13:28.480 | Does it help with learning?

00:13:30.000 | Does it help with thinking?

00:13:31.120 | Does it help with strategizing and all that?

00:13:33.540 | - Well, unfortunately, I got into fasting after I retired.

00:13:38.540 | I wish I would have, I really wish people ask me,

00:13:42.840 | "Would you have done it during the time that you competed?"

00:13:45.720 | And the answer is yes.

00:13:47.200 | I think we live in a society

00:13:49.920 | that we're bombarded by publicity.

00:13:52.840 | Oh, buy this, eat protein, this, that.

00:13:55.840 | And fasting, nobody makes money with it

00:13:59.320 | because there's nothing to sell.

00:14:02.320 | I think that's why a lot of people have not heard about it.

00:14:06.200 | And even for myself,

00:14:08.400 | if someone would have talked to me

00:14:09.760 | about the benefits of fasting when I was training,

00:14:14.520 | before I got sick,

00:14:16.360 | I would probably have ignored him

00:14:20.320 | because it's hard to believe.

00:14:24.960 | - Sounds ridiculous.

00:14:25.800 | Don't eat. - It sounds, yes.

00:14:27.280 | - It's gonna help your mind

00:14:28.400 | and you're going to gain muscle potentially.

00:14:30.600 | - Exactly.

00:14:31.440 | And perhaps people have talked to me about it,

00:14:34.040 | but it went in one of my hair

00:14:36.640 | and got out from the other side.

00:14:39.560 | But it really changed my life.

00:14:43.880 | I was diagnosed with ulcer colitis

00:14:45.800 | and it helps me get rid of all my symptoms.

00:14:49.640 | What I do is, I know a lot of people have ulcer colitis.

00:14:52.440 | And for me, I cannot recommend it to other people

00:14:57.040 | because everybody is different.

00:14:58.440 | But for me, I made a lot of research

00:15:02.280 | of how people from ulcer colitis got better.

00:15:05.680 | And I found out that a lot of people that got that condition

00:15:09.800 | get better in a natural way through fasting,

00:15:11.920 | eating fermented food, collagen,

00:15:14.680 | and bone broth and stuff for their gut.

00:15:17.840 | And it made a huge difference in my life.

00:15:20.120 | I just wish I would have known that before.

00:15:22.440 | - So do you have a specific diet wise stuff you like?

00:15:25.920 | So I've recently, another ridiculous sounding thing,

00:15:29.840 | but it makes me feel really good, is very low carbs.

00:15:33.520 | So keto, even carnivore, it sounds ridiculous.

00:15:37.640 | It doesn't make any sense,

00:15:39.320 | but it makes me feel really good even for performance.

00:15:42.440 | - Is Rogan has influenced you?

00:15:44.360 | He's a carnivore diet.

00:15:45.880 | - I was influenced actually by people.

00:15:47.640 | Yeah, well, he, there's, I'll tell you where,

00:15:50.920 | 'cause I was doing it before he was doing it,

00:15:53.360 | is there's, it was popular

00:15:55.480 | in the endurance athlete community

00:15:58.080 | where it was fat adapted athletes.

00:16:00.120 | It was people who, insane people who run 50 miles,

00:16:03.200 | a hundred miles, they figured out

00:16:05.480 | that they could fuel their body by, with fat.

00:16:09.160 | They can go to fat as the source of energy

00:16:11.880 | as opposed to carbs.

00:16:13.040 | So I remember hoping that I'll be able to learn

00:16:18.040 | how to run 50 miles and so on.

00:16:20.560 | I've never done more than 22,

00:16:22.400 | but I just remember switching away from carbs

00:16:27.400 | and feeling really liberated.

00:16:32.200 | Like I wasn't thinking about food as much.

00:16:34.080 | I'm able to eat once a day and feel really good.

00:16:38.000 | I mean, I think everybody's body's different,

00:16:40.840 | but I think carbs make me lazy.

00:16:43.480 | Maybe it's because- - The crash.

00:16:46.520 | - Yeah, it's the crash,

00:16:47.880 | but also just psychologically something,

00:16:50.400 | it forces me to also think about food too much.

00:16:54.480 | Like it starts becoming, you know,

00:16:57.200 | just like you said, our society is so much about food.

00:16:59.440 | There's so many, so much advertisement

00:17:01.200 | and so much of our social life is about food.

00:17:03.520 | And so it's very easy to live life,

00:17:07.160 | like live day to day thinking, when is the next meal?

00:17:10.720 | Like, what am I gonna eat for lunch?

00:17:11.880 | What am I gonna eat for dinner?

00:17:12.800 | What am I gonna eat for breakfast?

00:17:14.840 | And if you're not careful,

00:17:17.240 | that's gonna get in the way of you doing cool shit

00:17:20.560 | for like liberating yourself and thinking like,

00:17:23.840 | what am I actually passionate about in this life?

00:17:26.000 | Like creating and forgetting to eat,

00:17:28.080 | those kinds of things,

00:17:29.120 | and still being able to fuel your body.

00:17:31.760 | I don't know.

00:17:32.600 | It's been fascinating to figure out like later in life

00:17:37.080 | that carbs aren't necessary to function well.

00:17:41.280 | It makes me think like we don't know anything

00:17:43.040 | about nutrition.

00:17:44.040 | - That's right.

00:17:45.200 | Yes.

00:17:46.040 | You know, personally,

00:17:49.040 | I don't think I could have a diet without carbs.

00:17:53.080 | I love chocolate too much.

00:17:54.840 | For me eating, it's a pleasure of life.

00:17:57.200 | I love my carbs.

00:17:58.040 | I love my sugar.

00:17:59.560 | However, if you talk about diet,

00:18:01.200 | I don't have a specific diet,

00:18:03.200 | but recently what I'm trying to do is

00:18:07.840 | the days that I do not work out,

00:18:10.560 | I only eat once.

00:18:12.400 | That's kind of my rules.

00:18:14.800 | Plus I try to respect 16/8

00:18:17.480 | and do my three day fast four time a year.

00:18:22.480 | But the rest of the thing,

00:18:24.160 | I let myself loose

00:18:27.400 | because I don't think I would be happy

00:18:29.520 | if I don't give myself the right to eat.

00:18:34.520 | For me personally, I love to eat so much.

00:18:37.960 | Next.

00:18:38.800 | And you talk about diet, carnivore diet.

00:18:41.960 | It's very interesting because a few years ago,

00:18:45.880 | I went to Africa in Masai Mara

00:18:49.240 | and it's a tribe in East Africa.

00:18:54.240 | And I went to visit them.

00:18:56.960 | I did a safari.

00:18:58.840 | And I talked to them and these guys,

00:19:01.800 | their diet is 99% carnivore.

00:19:05.920 | That's crazy.

00:19:06.880 | And you should see they're very beautiful people.

00:19:09.320 | Shredded like, some people would say,

00:19:11.440 | "Oh, it's genetic."

00:19:12.280 | I'm like, "Yeah, maybe it's genetic."

00:19:13.440 | But I mean, think about the Eskimos also.

00:19:17.680 | Most of their diet is on fish, right?

00:19:21.440 | So I believe it can be done.

00:19:24.880 | I believe it can be done,

00:19:26.120 | like an exclusive carnivore diet.

00:19:27.960 | And I think I'm gonna try it pretty soon

00:19:31.560 | just to have the experience,

00:19:33.560 | to see how it feels like.

00:19:34.640 | - Well, you're gonna hang out with Joe.

00:19:37.080 | Be careful bringing it up

00:19:38.200 | because he'll convince you to forever switch to carnivore.

00:19:41.000 | Definitely, he loves it.

00:19:42.560 | I mean, but just like you, I think he loves food.

00:19:47.160 | So he can't ever stay on carnivore.

00:19:50.640 | It was funny 'cause we went to an Italian restaurant together

00:19:53.320 | and I still only eat meat.

00:19:55.480 | Like I love the constraints of discipline.

00:20:00.480 | That's partially why I like carnivore.

00:20:03.440 | I like saying no to food that is delicious.

00:20:06.400 | But part of the problem is that

00:20:11.720 | I don't know how to moderate.

00:20:12.720 | You said chocolate.

00:20:13.680 | I don't know how to have one chocolate.

00:20:15.240 | Is that something you're able to do?

00:20:17.360 | Have like in moderation?

00:20:19.880 | - No, it's when I have an opportunity, I do it.

00:20:22.600 | I don't have any, I'm an extremist person.

00:20:25.200 | That's the thing.

00:20:27.560 | When I have a chance, I just eat.

00:20:32.200 | I go too much.

00:20:33.040 | And that's what I like about my life.

00:20:34.680 | That's what I like about fasting

00:20:37.000 | because probably if I would not have discovered fasting,

00:20:40.560 | eating chocolate would give me cramps

00:20:42.720 | and all sorts of problems.

00:20:44.800 | 'Cause people on ulcer colitis,

00:20:47.000 | normally they cannot eat chocolate.

00:20:48.400 | They cannot drink alcohol.

00:20:49.520 | But I believe because I'm fasting,

00:20:52.960 | that's the reason why I'm medication free.

00:20:57.840 | I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want.

00:21:00.040 | But I have to do that fasting.

00:21:02.720 | And now it became to a point

00:21:05.120 | that it's no longer hard for me.

00:21:07.120 | It's like normal.

00:21:08.200 | I don't even force myself.

00:21:09.840 | It's easy.

00:21:12.120 | You know what I mean?

00:21:13.240 | Some of my friends think I'm insane.

00:21:16.760 | But I tell them it's like when you get used to it,

00:21:19.760 | it becomes like an habit.

00:21:21.360 | And I know that on Targheta,

00:21:24.400 | like our ancestor did not eat three times a day.

00:21:27.520 | It's not true.

00:21:30.120 | They ate when they could.

00:21:32.400 | And when they eat,

00:21:33.240 | they feed themselves as much as they can

00:21:36.760 | until the next time.

00:21:38.200 | 'Cause they didn't know when they could eat again.

00:21:40.760 | So I think that's how we're built,

00:21:46.080 | to have this similar lifestyle.

00:21:50.720 | - If we could take a step back

00:21:51.800 | to the discussion about fear a little bit.

00:21:54.520 | So Mike Tyson talks about this process

00:21:58.120 | of him walking to the ring.

00:22:00.000 | He sounds similar to you in many ways

00:22:02.160 | of the anxiety and the fear that he experiences.

00:22:05.240 | And he has this sort of story that he tells

00:22:10.000 | about walking to the ring and being supremely afraid.

00:22:14.040 | But as he walks and gets closer and steps in,

00:22:16.440 | he finds the confidence and becomes supremely confident.

00:22:19.800 | I think he calls himself like a god.

00:22:21.520 | I feel like a god in the ring.

00:22:23.040 | Do you go through a similar process

00:22:26.400 | of finding the confidence?

00:22:27.880 | - Well, yes.

00:22:31.520 | And I use a James Lange theory.

00:22:35.820 | So what I do is,

00:22:39.160 | because I'm not afraid to admit that I'm afraid.

00:22:43.200 | And in the beginning of my career,

00:22:48.960 | I really thought, I asked myself,

00:22:51.080 | because I was very good in mixed martial arts,

00:22:53.560 | but I really thought I wasn't made for this

00:22:56.080 | because the idea of fighting didn't make me happy.

00:23:01.080 | It's something like I was forced to do

00:23:06.040 | in order to keep that lifestyle that I have

00:23:09.680 | and achieve my goal,

00:23:11.800 | perhaps one day to make enough money to retire.

00:23:14.680 | And that was my dream.

00:23:16.960 | But when I was looking around the gym where I was training,

00:23:21.240 | most of my training partner, they were happy.

00:23:22.880 | They were excited.

00:23:23.720 | And sometime I corner a lot of guys and they're happy

00:23:26.560 | and they're in the locker room.

00:23:27.600 | They don't react the same way I do.

00:23:30.600 | Some perhaps does,

00:23:32.340 | but if you see me in the locker room,

00:23:34.560 | like when I get like my last fight with Michael Bisping,

00:23:38.840 | just to give you an example,

00:23:40.100 | in my last fight with Michael Bisping,

00:23:42.400 | because it's fresh, it's the one that is the most recent,

00:23:45.680 | but it's always the same thing.

00:23:47.360 | My last fight, Bisping, again in the locker room,

00:23:51.040 | I had like three guys that I trained with,

00:23:55.040 | Mickey Gall, Eamon Zahabi and Joseph Duffy.

00:23:59.560 | They all lost.

00:24:00.400 | It was like my locker room was basically cursed.

00:24:04.100 | When you're in a locker room

00:24:07.320 | and people from your locker room leave for a fight

00:24:10.360 | and then they come back, it's kind of a momentum.

00:24:12.320 | You know, you shake and yeah, good job.

00:24:14.640 | Now it's my turn.

00:24:15.480 | It's kind of a team brotherhood sort of thing.

00:24:19.560 | So the atmosphere in my locker room was pretty bad.

00:24:24.560 | It was like going to a, you know, like a funeral.

00:24:30.540 | So I was very scared.

00:24:34.320 | And before every fight, I asked myself always,

00:24:38.880 | shit, what the hell I'm doing here?

00:24:41.240 | Why did I choose to come back?

00:24:43.100 | Oh my God.

00:24:43.940 | And I'm freaking out.

00:24:45.340 | However, I'm putting on a mask like I'm acting

00:24:51.380 | because if I don't do that, it will reflect on my coaches.

00:24:54.680 | And if my coach, the confidence of my coaches is affected,

00:24:58.700 | it will reflect on me.

00:25:00.300 | So I need to feel strong.

00:25:02.580 | I need to make them believe that I'm excited to be there

00:25:07.580 | and I'm happy to be there.

00:25:08.960 | So this sort of play start when I get,

00:25:13.380 | when I first step in the locker room,

00:25:15.260 | even though I feel completely different,

00:25:17.780 | but that's how I play it.

00:25:20.140 | Normally the fight day, I never feel 100%.

00:25:24.140 | I always feel exhausted, tired.

00:25:26.440 | My highs are hitching because I don't sleep enough

00:25:30.920 | the few nights before, because I'm constantly rehearsing

00:25:34.500 | scenarios that might happen in the fight.

00:25:36.540 | So mentally, it's not that I'm not on top.

00:25:42.660 | - But you keep all that to yourself.

00:25:44.060 | - I keep it to myself and I'm lying to everybody around me.

00:25:48.620 | But everybody knows, you know?

00:25:50.340 | Ferraz, John, they know Freddie Rose,

00:25:54.620 | they've been with me for a long time,

00:25:55.780 | so they know what's going on,

00:25:56.780 | but at least I'm lying to them.

00:25:58.420 | I'm like, "Hey, I'm feeling great."

00:26:00.000 | So, and seeing all my training partner,

00:26:02.900 | like very disappointed because they lost their fight.

00:26:05.620 | Some were badly hurt as well.

00:26:08.800 | It was hard.

00:26:10.420 | So, and I remember I get, I start to warm up and everything.

00:26:15.140 | And as you start to warm up, you become a different person

00:26:19.300 | because, you know, we know that certain posture

00:26:23.420 | and yoga can affect your mental state.

00:26:26.980 | But I would say it's a little bit the same thing

00:26:29.220 | in fighting, you know?

00:26:30.280 | Like when you started hitting the pads,

00:26:32.740 | your muscle memory, your instincts comes back

00:26:36.220 | and you remember that you're good at this, you know?

00:26:39.500 | And your confidence start to grow.

00:26:41.940 | And as seeing your trainers holding the pad

00:26:44.020 | and repeating your moves,

00:26:46.540 | it makes you also remember all the sacrifice

00:26:48.620 | you have done through your training camp.

00:26:50.860 | And confidence come from how you prepared yourself.

00:26:54.980 | And even you're afraid, you can be confident

00:26:59.060 | in the same time.

00:26:59.900 | Being afraid and being confident is two different thing.

00:27:03.340 | And before every fight, just right before I walk in,

00:27:08.220 | it's when I'm scared, I go in the bathroom

00:27:11.500 | and I look at myself in the mirror.

00:27:12.740 | I used to have a bandana and a gi,

00:27:14.900 | but now I didn't have this for my last fight

00:27:18.260 | because of the new Reebok deal they had.

00:27:22.140 | But I did the same rehearsal that I always do.

00:27:24.260 | I look at myself in the mirror

00:27:25.260 | and I start to compliment myself.

00:27:28.020 | Like, even if I don't believe it,

00:27:30.240 | I'm starting to trying to believe it as I am.

00:27:32.660 | I'm finding all the reason why I'm going to win the fight.

00:27:35.980 | And all my trainer knows that before every fight,

00:27:39.260 | when the guy from the UFC goes,

00:27:41.540 | step in my room and says, "St. Pierre, you're up next."

00:27:43.220 | I always take a few minute to do that same rehearsal.

00:27:47.660 | And I tell myself, I'm going to win this fight

00:27:49.460 | because I'm better.

00:27:50.820 | And I'm very cocky about myself.

00:27:52.740 | I'm telling all the reasons that why I'm going to win.

00:27:56.060 | I got a better team, I made more sacrifice.

00:27:58.980 | I'm faster, I'm more powerful, way more athletic.

00:28:01.780 | My fighting IQ is better than him.

00:28:03.500 | I got a strategy on point that he's never going to be able

00:28:06.900 | to keep up with and this and that.

00:28:09.500 | And I was telling myself, I'm going to show these young kids

00:28:13.500 | how things should be done.

00:28:14.740 | You know, I tried to boost myself.

00:28:16.380 | Yeah, try to boost yourself.

00:28:18.300 | And you start to believing it, you become a different person.

00:28:21.500 | So when you walk out the bathroom, now rock and roll.

00:28:25.580 | Now I really believe it for real.

00:28:28.260 | You know, like I'm still scared, but I believe it for real.

00:28:31.260 | And that's the transformation that happened for me

00:28:33.380 | right there.

00:28:34.220 | And from there to the fight, until the fight is over,

00:28:39.220 | I call it cruise control.

00:28:41.900 | Because you don't have time to think in a fight.

00:28:44.300 | If you're trying to think, you're missing the opportunity.

00:28:46.940 | So that's how I see it for myself.

00:28:49.660 | - So at that point, you stop thinking

00:28:50.980 | and you just go cruise control, autopilot.

00:28:53.140 | - Trust yourself, you know, trust yourself

00:28:55.660 | because you repeated all the scenarios, you know.

00:28:58.900 | So everything that you have done, it's inside your computer.

00:29:02.900 | Your brain is programmed to react accordingly

00:29:05.420 | to certain situations.

00:29:07.460 | And it's not the night of the fight that you'll tell yourself

00:29:11.500 | oh, finally, I'm going to do this if you do this now.

00:29:13.700 | No, if you have not practiced it before, you're screwed.

00:29:17.460 | It's the preparation, the repetition that makes it happen.

00:29:22.460 | - What about like the really difficult moments in a fight

00:29:26.340 | where you are tested to your limits, essentially.

00:29:31.340 | Usually it's cardio related exhaustion, right?

00:29:34.220 | Where you have to ask yourself that same question.

00:29:36.420 | It's like, why the hell am I doing this?

00:29:38.580 | - Yeah.

00:29:39.540 | - Do you experience those?

00:29:41.620 | Or are you able to ride through the autopilot?

00:29:43.980 | And if you do, like, what do you do in those moments?

00:29:46.740 | - Never in a fight.

00:29:47.660 | When I'm in a fight, when the fight is on,

00:29:52.260 | I never change my mind.

00:29:53.380 | I go until the end.

00:29:56.260 | However, for example, my first fight with BJ Penn,

00:30:00.460 | I had a terrible first round.

00:30:03.020 | So I had to switch gear.

00:30:05.020 | That happened sometimes.

00:30:06.740 | But it's part of my plan.

00:30:08.380 | I always have a plan B, plan A, plan B, plan C.

00:30:12.900 | You need to have that.

00:30:13.740 | If fighters goes into a fight thinking,

00:30:15.780 | oh, I'm going to do this, this, this,

00:30:17.980 | and they don't have a plan B, if this doesn't work,

00:30:21.060 | that's mean they're not well prepared.

00:30:22.820 | If you talk to me before every fight,

00:30:24.860 | I can, like, in 30 seconds, give you my whole strategy.

00:30:29.020 | You know, for BJ Penn, my first fight with BJ Penn was,

00:30:32.300 | oh, I'm going to keep it standing up,

00:30:34.180 | keep the fight from the outside, you know,

00:30:37.140 | because I'm faster than him.

00:30:38.780 | Then the fight with BJ Penn start.

00:30:40.580 | I found out that I was not faster than him.

00:30:44.060 | And I found out that his reaction time

00:30:47.180 | was better than mine.

00:30:49.420 | So I got beat up the first round.

00:30:52.620 | And I got a bloody nose and everything.

00:30:54.780 | So my plan B was now I'm going to wrestle him.

00:30:58.380 | You know, I'm going to wrestle him and, you know,

00:31:00.700 | make him tired and trying to put him down.

00:31:02.740 | And that's how I beat him, because I switched gear,

00:31:05.540 | you know, but if you can't do that,

00:31:07.700 | if you cannot find a way to become the perfect nemesis

00:31:10.660 | to your opponent, you might win a few fight,

00:31:13.620 | but you're going to find,

00:31:16.140 | you're going to fight someone sooner or later

00:31:19.020 | that will give you a lot of trouble.

00:31:23.420 | - So that's where the anxiety pays off.

00:31:25.140 | You're anticipating all the ways it goes wrong.

00:31:26.900 | So you've developed a plan B and plan C.

00:31:29.260 | Hi, you know, we talked a lot with,

00:31:32.420 | like John Donaher, who you work with.

00:31:36.020 | It's interesting.

00:31:36.860 | I don't think I've heard him talk about plan B and plan C.

00:31:39.660 | He usually has a really clear plan A,

00:31:43.900 | an entire system of plan A.

00:31:45.660 | I don't think I've heard him.

00:31:46.900 | We've had a good discussion about it in,

00:31:53.380 | over some cheeseburgers.

00:31:54.900 | And he was kind of espousing the value of mastering escapes.

00:32:00.900 | So when you find yourself in bad situations,

00:32:05.700 | being exceptionally good at finding ways

00:32:07.900 | out of those bad situations,

00:32:09.460 | and that's a way of dominance.

00:32:11.340 | There's nothing, there's no better way

00:32:14.020 | to dominate your opponent, according to him,

00:32:16.580 | than to show that they can't possibly hurt you

00:32:18.820 | no matter how bad the position is.

00:32:21.340 | It's like, as opposed to a physical dominance,

00:32:24.180 | it's a psychological dominance.

00:32:25.700 | It's very interesting.

00:32:27.100 | But I wonder if he has plan B and plan C in his mind too.

00:32:32.100 | - You know, in mixed martial arts,

00:32:34.660 | sometimes it's like in science,

00:32:36.100 | sometimes you can make a mistake, you know?

00:32:38.460 | Like every human can make mistakes, you know?

00:32:41.820 | There's certain sport or a certain situation that you,

00:32:45.700 | if there's a mistake made, that's it, exactly.

00:32:49.620 | Sometimes it's the case in MMA,

00:32:51.860 | but sometimes you're able to redeem yourself.

00:32:55.180 | And if you look at the fight with BJ Penn one that I had,

00:33:00.180 | which was probably one of the most competitive fight,

00:33:03.860 | and it was probably the,

00:33:05.340 | it was the fight that I got the most damage,

00:33:08.780 | and I was messed up.

00:33:09.740 | It took me three days,

00:33:11.020 | like two, three days to recuperate from that fight.

00:33:13.100 | I was really damaged.

00:33:14.980 | And my first fight versus my second fight,

00:33:17.900 | I made a lot of adjustment

00:33:19.940 | because I have learned from my first fight.

00:33:22.700 | And also I had a guy, one thing people don't know,

00:33:26.220 | like they talk about fighters having secret weapons.

00:33:29.140 | See, for me, my secret weapons was not,

00:33:32.140 | like some is that they use like certain,

00:33:34.180 | like different things.

00:33:35.060 | For me, it was knowledge.

00:33:36.860 | I had a guy in Montreal, he was measuring frames.

00:33:40.420 | He's not a scientist, he's a friend of Ferras and I.

00:33:43.940 | And what he does, he watch fight and he measure frames.

00:33:47.700 | The way he does it is when you watch a fight

00:33:49.900 | and one of the guy throw a punch,

00:33:51.940 | he cut the picture by frame, the video by frame.

00:33:55.100 | Clack, clack, clack, clack.

00:33:56.580 | So he's able to see which fighter

00:33:59.900 | has better reaction time than others.

00:34:01.860 | And BJ Penn, he found out that BJ Penn,

00:34:05.420 | of all the UFC roster at the time when he was in his prime,

00:34:09.340 | he had probably the best reaction time of all.

00:34:11.700 | According to him, Lyoto Mashido was the second one.

00:34:15.980 | But BJ Penn was the first one.

00:34:17.820 | So I knew that if I would try to go first,

00:34:21.500 | because I always been the fastest guy

00:34:23.620 | normally when I fight someone.

00:34:25.660 | But when I fought BJ Penn, I tried to go first

00:34:28.300 | and he was always able to,

00:34:29.780 | like I never, was never able to touch him with my jab

00:34:34.060 | and he came back with a counter punch.

00:34:35.980 | However, because of what he told me,

00:34:40.980 | I knew that BJ Penn has a very fast reaction time,

00:34:43.500 | but had a very poor reset time.

00:34:45.980 | To him, the way he described it to me,

00:34:48.940 | he's like, "Your nervous system is like a muscle."

00:34:51.940 | BJ Penn was so fast, but he's like more like a sprinter.

00:34:55.340 | So what I did the second fight,

00:34:57.140 | when I fought BJ Penn, I made him flinch.

00:34:59.380 | Like I fake a lot, so I make him react and flinch.

00:35:02.180 | So all that reaction time that he used to flinch

00:35:05.780 | was not used properly to avoid my punches.

00:35:10.140 | So I burn, I load up his nervous system

00:35:14.060 | with a lot of information and fake

00:35:16.780 | and to make him flinch and pretending

00:35:19.180 | I was kicking and wrestling.

00:35:21.620 | So he got overwhelmed and he got tired very, very fast.

00:35:25.660 | So that's how I beat him.

00:35:26.900 | People sometimes they don't know really

00:35:28.900 | what's the strategy behind the thing.

00:35:31.020 | They only see the physical part.

00:35:32.500 | But when you fight someone, if I fight you,

00:35:34.260 | I look at you in the eyes,

00:35:35.980 | there's a lot of things that going on between you and I.

00:35:39.020 | I can look down here, bam, jab you in the face.

00:35:42.540 | The audience will not see these little detail,

00:35:45.620 | but you will see it.

00:35:47.060 | And that's what makes the magic during a fight.

00:35:50.500 | The relation that you have with the opponent,

00:35:52.900 | like the mental game, what you make him believe,

00:35:55.660 | those little thing, I use a lot of those.

00:35:58.580 | If you've talked to a lot of my opponent,

00:36:00.620 | they'll tell you like, I use a lot of these little thing.

00:36:02.980 | Like I look down at Banner, I go up

00:36:04.820 | or I am pretending I want to attack you,

00:36:06.820 | so I make you flinch.

00:36:08.780 | But in reality, I'm just doing this

00:36:11.140 | because I want to rest, I want to recuperate and I'm tired.

00:36:14.180 | - How much is, people talk about that with poker,

00:36:17.860 | for example, how much is the value of this?

00:36:21.860 | So like some people argue that poker

00:36:24.100 | is more about the betting, just the money.

00:36:27.100 | It's just how much you bet and so on.

00:36:29.060 | So that would be more like the analogy there

00:36:32.500 | with fighting would be just strictly

00:36:35.460 | the physical movement of your body.

00:36:37.420 | And then a lot of people argue that there's a lot here

00:36:40.100 | in the way you look and the little movements in the face.

00:36:42.620 | So do you think you're communicating

00:36:46.020 | with your opponent when you look at them?

00:36:48.700 | - There's no way to know for sure, 100%.

00:36:51.140 | And I'm by no means psychic, nothing like that.

00:36:54.500 | And I don't believe in that at all.

00:36:56.140 | The only thing is I know through looking

00:36:58.580 | through the eyes of my opponent,

00:37:00.420 | when he's afraid and when he gives up on me.

00:37:03.620 | I've been accused very often in my career

00:37:06.940 | to not take enough risk, to not finish my opponent.

00:37:10.420 | But the reason why I didn't finish my opponent

00:37:12.300 | is because I saw in his eyes that he gave up,

00:37:15.140 | he gave me the fight and I'm winning the fight.

00:37:17.780 | So it's not up to me, it's not to me to make it,

00:37:22.780 | to try to sacrifice myself, trying to finish him.

00:37:25.660 | Perhaps if I do that, I will open up for him

00:37:28.860 | to capitalize on my mistake.

00:37:33.060 | It's up to him to make a risk.

00:37:35.820 | So people, sometimes they don't understand

00:37:38.420 | that this is the art of fighting, my friend.

00:37:41.100 | Like if I'm winning the fight, like in hockey,

00:37:43.260 | in ice hockey, if you're winning the game

00:37:45.980 | and it's the third period,

00:37:47.220 | it's at the end of the third period,

00:37:49.060 | you're not gonna take out your goal

00:37:50.460 | and they're trying to score another goal

00:37:51.980 | because winning five to three or five to four

00:37:56.900 | is the same thing.

00:37:57.900 | Same thing in MMA, we make a living out of this.

00:38:00.700 | And sometimes, as sad as it can be,

00:38:04.820 | you wanna save yourself for another day,

00:38:06.740 | you wanna minimize the damage.

00:38:08.940 | But if he knows he's losing the fight,

00:38:11.700 | it's up to him to take the risk, it's not up to me.

00:38:15.460 | So I'm a good counter fighter,

00:38:17.340 | I use a lot of my attack or counter strike

00:38:20.020 | or reactive takedown or proactive takedown.

00:38:23.780 | That's my specialty.

00:38:25.420 | So I'm not gonna, I'd have no desire to sacrifice myself

00:38:29.420 | trying to finish my opponent if he want to,

00:38:33.700 | if perhaps I might give him the opportunity

00:38:36.260 | to capitalize on me.

00:38:37.980 | It's not smart to do that.

00:38:41.660 | And very often when I fight someone,

00:38:44.380 | I can read him, I see the fear in his eyes.

00:38:46.860 | Now I'm like, I got you now.

00:38:48.500 | He's very desperate, doesn't mean I have to put my guard down

00:38:52.460 | because he's gonna be desperate,

00:38:54.140 | but I know I'm beating you.

00:38:55.780 | And I know I'm beating you,

00:38:56.820 | I'm just gonna do what I need.

00:38:58.380 | If I have a chance, of course, I'll knock him out,

00:39:00.260 | but I'm not gonna try to sacrifice myself to knock him out.

00:39:04.180 | And if you do that,

00:39:05.420 | maybe one day you'll make a mistake and you'll get dropped

00:39:09.900 | and you'll tell yourself, I shoot, I just got brain damage,

00:39:14.260 | maybe I'm never gonna come back the same,

00:39:15.820 | maybe I ruined my career or,

00:39:18.460 | it's a very serious game that we're playing,

00:39:21.820 | it's very dangerous.

00:39:23.500 | - In the face of that risk,

00:39:26.460 | I mean, Mike Tyson talked about,

00:39:29.260 | "When the opponent looks away, he knows he's got them."

00:39:33.140 | That he's broken.

00:39:37.020 | For a person like me who has trouble

00:39:40.940 | making eye contact with people, there's truth to that.

00:39:44.260 | I mean, there's truth to that,

00:39:46.040 | that there's an animal nature to us looking away.

00:39:49.940 | I mean, you could see that the way the body language,

00:39:53.180 | the way the eyes move between two animals going at it

00:39:57.260 | in the wild when two lions fight or two whatever fight,

00:40:01.780 | there's a certain beta move when you've been defeated.

00:40:06.620 | - Yes, or one thing when I know that,

00:40:09.500 | that when it happened, one of the thing

00:40:12.140 | is when I just make a feint and the guy flinch like crazy,

00:40:16.060 | that's mean he's really scared of me.

00:40:17.860 | It's a little bit like you're doing this,

00:40:20.500 | that guy flinch a little bit, or you're doing this,

00:40:22.060 | he's flinch, that's mean you hurt him

00:40:25.500 | and he doesn't wanna get hurt again.

00:40:26.860 | So he's really trying to run away

00:40:29.380 | and not winning the fight anymore, but not losing.

00:40:34.180 | So sort of surviving the five round.

00:40:36.740 | And it's hard to finish a guy who doesn't wanna fight,

00:40:41.420 | a guy who's not fighting anymore to win

00:40:43.700 | and is fighting to not lose.

00:40:45.460 | And the proof of that, if you don't believe me,

00:40:47.220 | just look the reign of all the greatest champion in UFC.

00:40:50.140 | I don't care who they are, John Jones,

00:40:51.940 | like you could clearly see that

00:40:55.420 | in the beginning of their reign,

00:40:56.580 | they could finish a lot of their opponent,

00:40:59.260 | same as me in the beginning,

00:41:00.300 | I was finishing a lot of my opponent.

00:41:02.020 | But there's a time that the entire UFC roster

00:41:04.860 | is studying you and they found a ways to,

00:41:08.460 | perhaps not beating you, but they found a way

00:41:10.620 | to navigate through the fight in a way

00:41:14.500 | that they minimize the damage.

00:41:16.300 | You know what I mean?

00:41:17.140 | So it's a big difference between fighting to win

00:41:19.700 | and fighting to not lose.

00:41:21.140 | - You said that there's a difference

00:41:23.980 | between a fighter and a martial artist.

00:41:25.980 | So now we were talking about fighting,

00:41:28.380 | you're considered by many to be

00:41:30.220 | one of the greatest fighters of all time.

00:41:32.820 | But you've said that there's a difference

00:41:34.820 | between a fighter and a martial artist.

00:41:37.860 | A fighter is training for a purpose, he has a fight.

00:41:40.620 | I'm a martial artist, I don't train for a fight.

00:41:45.100 | I train for myself, I'm training all the time.

00:41:48.100 | My goal is perfection, but I will never reach perfection.

00:41:52.540 | So what to you does it mean to be a martial artist?

00:41:55.960 | - Martial artist is because that lifestyle

00:41:59.940 | that I have has been introduced to me

00:42:03.540 | and the seed has been planted to my mind

00:42:05.780 | a long, long time ago by my father.

00:42:08.580 | I do not train because I have a fight,

00:42:15.100 | I will always train.

00:42:16.220 | Even now it kind of amuse me to see that

00:42:21.800 | a lot of people, because I'm still training,

00:42:23.740 | because I love the science of fighting.

00:42:25.740 | I do not like to fight, but I love the science of it.

00:42:28.180 | And I will always do it as long as I can do it.

00:42:31.300 | People think I'm gonna make a comeback and everything.

00:42:34.100 | I'm about to get to 40 years old, you know?

00:42:37.100 | Like it's, I'm, you know, like.

00:42:40.140 | - Well, Mike Tyson--

00:42:42.860 | - I don't wanna fight in a cage at 40 years old.

00:42:44.820 | I mean, some people have done it, they did it very well,

00:42:47.280 | but I'm not one of them.

00:42:49.540 | I feel a little bit to me that,

00:42:51.240 | and you never say never,

00:42:54.480 | I feel like to me, like it's a little,

00:42:56.760 | like a kid that you play with a string when he's young,

00:42:58.840 | like, (imitates drum roll)

00:43:00.040 | then he's five years old, (imitates drum roll)

00:43:01.400 | six years old, seven years old, eight years old.

00:43:03.640 | And then I'm always like,

00:43:04.840 | what the hell I'm doing here?

00:43:06.960 | And I'm too old for this.

00:43:08.080 | Like, I've done it, you know?

00:43:11.880 | And I got out of it on top and I'm healthy,

00:43:17.920 | which is the most important thing right now,

00:43:20.020 | I'm touching wood and I'm wealthy.

00:43:22.820 | I beat the game, you know what I mean?

00:43:24.420 | In a way, like, that's not to be cocky, but I did it.

00:43:27.300 | And I wish more fighters could do the same thing.

00:43:31.100 | I wish, but it's unfortunate because a lot of them,

00:43:34.860 | they stay there and hang out for too long

00:43:37.620 | and they get badly hurt.

00:43:39.180 | They get beaten and broken, you know?

00:43:44.180 | And they finish broke as well.

00:43:47.380 | Because the lifestyle you have when you're a pro athlete,

00:43:50.180 | it's crazy, you know, it's unbelievable.

00:43:53.780 | However, everything that goes up in life goes down

00:43:57.080 | and you need to plan your future, you know?

00:43:59.460 | So for me, if some guys have the same mentality as me

00:44:04.060 | and they're watching us right now,

00:44:05.180 | I would say if you do it because you're just good at it,

00:44:09.000 | you like the money, the advantage,

00:44:11.060 | the freedom that it gives you,

00:44:12.200 | but you don't necessarily like to fight,

00:44:14.700 | when you're done, you finish on top, you know,

00:44:17.500 | go cash out and get out of here.

00:44:19.580 | - Walk away. - Yes.

00:44:20.420 | - That's really hard to do.

00:44:21.940 | - However, Alex, it's not everybody

00:44:23.660 | that does it for that reason.

00:44:25.380 | Some people generally love to fight, love to compete.

00:44:28.800 | So they do it because they love it, you know,

00:44:30.820 | or they do it because of the money.

00:44:32.380 | But if you don't love it, if you don't like to fight

00:44:34.780 | because it's very stressful and you don't enjoy,

00:44:36.940 | you enjoy the training perhaps,

00:44:38.780 | but you don't like to fight,

00:44:39.700 | you do it because it's part of what you need to do

00:44:42.340 | in order to keep that lifestyle.

00:44:44.220 | And you know, like you don't need the money,

00:44:47.900 | say get out of here, man.

00:44:49.580 | If you're in your prime, get out of here

00:44:51.700 | because if you don't, you'll hurt your own legacy,

00:44:54.540 | you'll damage your health.

00:44:56.420 | It's very sad.

00:44:57.860 | And it's a sad business, you know what I mean?

00:45:02.240 | It's like a lot of,

00:45:04.620 | one of the place where,

00:45:08.500 | is one of the most happiest place for me to go

00:45:12.820 | and the most saddest place for me to go,

00:45:15.260 | it's in the gym, it's in Tristar, Montreal.

00:45:18.380 | Because it's one of the happiest place for me to go

00:45:20.900 | because I can go train and do what I love to do.

00:45:23.640 | But it's also a very sad place for me

00:45:26.460 | because after, when I'm about to leave,

00:45:28.500 | there's always a bunch of young kid that comes

00:45:31.020 | or guys that are around 30, 33 years old.

00:45:35.420 | And they comes to me and say,

00:45:36.260 | "Hey, George, you have some advice for me?"

00:45:38.940 | And I look at them.

00:45:41.500 | And if they're my friend, they're real close friend of mine,

00:45:44.180 | I'll tell them the truth in their face.

00:45:46.260 | And I've done it many time and it was not well received.

00:45:49.580 | But if they're not my friend, I have to,

00:45:51.540 | it's always an advice about fighting

00:45:53.620 | and I answer their question, it's my pleasure.

00:45:56.460 | But the truth, if they want me to tell the truth,

00:46:00.420 | the big majority of them,

00:46:02.740 | I would tell them, I said,

00:46:03.580 | "Listen, man, you're in maybe three,

00:46:07.300 | like on a losing street of three fight.

00:46:10.900 | You're 30, 33 years old.

00:46:14.260 | I think you should think about doing something else

00:46:16.900 | in your life, have other goals,

00:46:19.220 | because you're not gonna make it."

00:46:21.220 | And I've seen that movie before and it's a very sad ending.

00:46:26.220 | And I'm sad to tell you the truth

00:46:29.060 | because you're not gonna make the money.

00:46:31.180 | Just choose something.

00:46:32.460 | But if I tell them that, they're gonna be angry at me

00:46:34.900 | because they're gonna be like,

00:46:35.740 | "Oh, you, you make it and you think I cannot make it.

00:46:37.740 | So it's kind of, they're gonna think I'm cocky."

00:46:40.340 | But I was lucky to make it.

00:46:41.980 | You know what, the star were all aligned,

00:46:43.580 | but at one point you need to be able to have a plan B.

00:46:47.340 | You know, like some parent,

00:46:49.380 | they come to see me with their kids.

00:46:52.340 | "Hey, this is the future world champion in UFC.

00:46:55.940 | And what advice would you give him?"

00:46:57.940 | I always tell the same thing.

00:46:59.420 | And it does not make everybody happy when I say that.

00:47:01.780 | I say, I go to the kid, I say, "Are you good at school?"

00:47:05.620 | Say, "Stay at school.

00:47:06.740 | School is very important for you.

00:47:08.380 | Stay educated."

00:47:09.980 | "Yeah, do boxing, martial arts, a great sport.

00:47:12.900 | Stay in shape,

00:47:14.300 | but don't put your eggs all in the same basket."

00:47:17.180 | And the parents sometimes are angry when I say,

00:47:18.740 | not angry, but I can see in their eyes,

00:47:20.260 | they're like, they kind of surprised.

00:47:24.380 | And it's not because I made it

00:47:27.140 | that I will tell their kid to follow the same path

00:47:30.300 | that I did.

00:47:31.140 | I went to school too.

00:47:32.340 | I've studied.

00:47:34.220 | I dropped out of school

00:47:35.660 | when I had my first world championship fight

00:47:37.580 | against Matt Hughes.

00:47:39.260 | But before that, I was at school.

00:47:41.340 | So I had another, you know,

00:47:42.820 | another way to go if things would not have gone

00:47:46.620 | the same, the way I wanted.

00:47:48.780 | But the problem, and I'm saying that,

00:47:51.060 | it's not only about boxing and MMA.

00:47:52.820 | I'm talking about hockey, basketball, baseball,

00:47:55.100 | same thing.

00:47:56.380 | Maybe it's one on a hundred thousand that make it.

00:47:59.660 | And I'm saying, I'm saying that make it.

00:48:01.820 | When I'm saying make it, that means they can retire

00:48:04.820 | and have enough money for the rest of his life.

00:48:07.020 | Because it's a sad story.

00:48:09.220 | The only people only heard about the people that makes it,

00:48:12.820 | but a lot of fighter, even a UFC champion,

00:48:16.300 | in boxing champion, even in football, basketball,

00:48:18.460 | I don't care, the big names,

00:48:20.420 | when they retire, they have zero.

00:48:21.940 | They're bankrupt, my friend.

00:48:23.780 | And it's a very sad, sad story and a sad reality

00:48:27.500 | that most people are not aware of.

00:48:29.500 | - But having other paths in life actually

00:48:31.620 | can also increase the chance of you dominating

00:48:36.300 | and like reaching the highest peak in your main thing.

00:48:39.700 | I mean, Jimmy Pedro, I don't know if you know who that is.

00:48:41.580 | He's a judo coach in America.

00:48:44.860 | He was, he says that to all of his athletes

00:48:47.860 | is to make sure that you go.

00:48:49.340 | He has a lot of, Kayla Harrison,

00:48:51.460 | two-time Olympic gold medalist.

00:48:52.780 | He has a lot of Olympic medalists.

00:48:55.060 | But basically there's something about going to school,

00:48:57.340 | like having, forget school, any other avenue in life

00:49:01.900 | that gives you the freedom to go all out in your main.

00:49:06.300 | Like that, you know, you're doing it for the right reasons.

00:49:09.300 | You're not stuck.

00:49:10.900 | It clears the mind to where you're free

00:49:13.500 | to be the best in the world.

00:49:15.340 | - Yes.

00:49:16.180 | - As opposed to kind of, you have to.

00:49:18.580 | I mean, different people are motivated by different things.

00:49:21.220 | So sometimes some people like having their back to the wall

00:49:25.220 | and that's the only option they have.

00:49:26.660 | But most people, I think, excel when you have other options.

00:49:30.420 | I think it's a distraction

00:49:31.900 | and I think it's important to have a distraction.

00:49:35.060 | When you say that, I think about one of my coach,

00:49:37.340 | John Danaher.

00:49:38.700 | He put his academic background experience into Jiu-Jitsu.

00:49:43.700 | And that, for me, that's why he's the best teacher

00:49:45.860 | I ever had.

00:49:46.940 | He's incredible.

00:49:48.420 | He start teaching me when I even couldn't speak

00:49:53.700 | much English at the time.

00:49:54.820 | And I was able to communicate and understand, you know,

00:49:58.580 | that's how good he is.

00:50:00.580 | But I truly believe that most of athletes,

00:50:03.460 | especially in sport like mixed martial art,

00:50:06.820 | train way too much.

00:50:08.380 | If I could go back and talk to a young George,

00:50:11.900 | I would tell him, I say, you do way too much volume.

00:50:16.580 | You train way too hard.

00:50:17.940 | Train smarter, it's more important.

00:50:20.660 | And I think sometimes we underestimate

00:50:23.700 | the benefit of recuperation.

00:50:27.220 | Because I think we assimilate the information

00:50:31.020 | that we learn during a training when we recuperate

00:50:35.380 | and not during the training itself.

00:50:37.660 | And this whole mentality of harder, heavier,

00:50:42.020 | you know, like it's good for someone who's lazy.

00:50:47.020 | But if you're an elite athlete, most of the time,

00:50:49.460 | you know, like you're not always, but most of the time

00:50:52.100 | it's because you're not lazy.

00:50:54.500 | And a lot of guys, sometimes they're elite athlete,

00:50:58.900 | champions, and you'll hear people say,

00:51:01.740 | oh, I can't believe he's very gifted, but he doesn't work.

00:51:04.900 | But perhaps it's not really,

00:51:07.180 | because perhaps it's because we don't understand.

00:51:09.420 | Perhaps he's doing the right thing

00:51:10.900 | and it's us who's working too much and too hard.

00:51:14.860 | That's what I think.

00:51:15.860 | There's a guy I train with, he made me think about it.

00:51:21.620 | His name is Mansour Barnawee.

00:51:23.700 | He's going to be a future star.

00:51:25.940 | He's an incredible fighter.

00:51:27.940 | He train once a day.

00:51:28.940 | And he asked me sometime advice when he came to Montreal.

00:51:33.140 | He's from France.

00:51:33.980 | You'll hear about him.

00:51:34.820 | He's very good.

00:51:36.260 | And I saw him in the morning at TriStar

00:51:41.220 | and I said, okay, I'll see you perhaps later

00:51:42.980 | in the other trainings.

00:51:43.820 | Oh no, I only train once a day.

00:51:45.220 | And he kind of wait for me to give him like,

00:51:50.020 | not an approval, but like to see how I react.

00:51:54.940 | Or, you know, I don't know.

00:51:56.860 | It was kind of a strange feeling, but I told myself

00:51:59.460 | at that point, I kind of had an awakening

00:52:01.900 | and I told myself, man, maybe he's doing the right thing.

00:52:06.900 | Because a lot of people would say, for example,

00:52:10.580 | oh, that's a lazy way of doing it.

00:52:13.180 | But perhaps it's the best way to do it.

00:52:15.700 | I'm not saying training once a day

00:52:17.420 | is the best way to do it.

00:52:18.580 | That's what I'm saying.

00:52:19.460 | I'm saying that everybody's different,

00:52:22.820 | but for him, it works beautifully.

00:52:26.020 | And I wouldn't change anything, you know,

00:52:27.900 | like if I would be him, because he's improving like crazy.

00:52:32.780 | - Yeah, and ultimately the bigger picture there

00:52:36.340 | is to do something that everyone else says is stupid.

00:52:40.460 | It's like the fasting thing that a lot of people would say,

00:52:44.140 | a lot of nutritional experts would say

00:52:45.940 | that that's a dumb way.

00:52:48.420 | You know, if you want to be an MMA fighter,

00:52:50.420 | you should be eating like many times a day.

00:52:52.620 | You should be starting every day with oatmeal.

00:52:55.060 | You should be carving up constantly,

00:52:57.460 | but that's not necessarily true for everybody.

00:52:59.740 | And it's possible.

00:53:01.220 | I'm sure there's actually now a few MMA fighters

00:53:03.180 | that are carnivore only.

00:53:04.220 | It's possible.

00:53:05.420 | - I used to eat right before training

00:53:08.660 | and it didn't bother me.

00:53:10.100 | However, now my first training that I do normally

00:53:17.900 | in average around noon, 11 a.m.,

00:53:21.260 | I haven't eaten anything when I do my first training.

00:53:25.860 | And it feels to me that I'm much more clear.

00:53:30.580 | I'm much more clear in my mind.

00:53:32.220 | I'm much more creative.

00:53:33.820 | I feel better.

00:53:35.420 | Yeah, it's a big difference.

00:53:36.980 | I just wish I would have known that before.

00:53:39.420 | - Well, it's fascinating the role of the mind

00:53:41.140 | in all of this.

00:53:41.980 | How important is it for your mind to be clear,

00:53:45.700 | to really think deeply?

00:53:47.460 | There's a Jidoka American named Travis Stevens.

00:53:52.460 | I remember he said something that the right kind

00:53:58.980 | of practice is when your mind is exhausted

00:54:01.860 | at the end of it,

00:54:03.380 | that you were constantly thinking through things.

00:54:07.660 | Like your body shouldn't be exhausted first.

00:54:09.700 | Your mind should be exhausted first.

00:54:11.940 | It's really fascinating.

00:54:13.280 | So people think about training hard.

00:54:17.100 | A successful practice is where you walk away

00:54:20.100 | just overwhelmed how much you had to think.

00:54:23.620 | It's fascinating framing of a successful practice.

00:54:27.260 | - It's true.

00:54:28.300 | Travis Stevens was one of my main training partner

00:54:31.300 | when I got ready for my fight

00:54:32.780 | with Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit.

00:54:36.860 | He drove every Friday from, I believe, Boston.

00:54:43.060 | It's like a six hour drive.

00:54:47.100 | Drive to the gym in Montreal,

00:54:50.620 | train with us an hour and a half, drive back.

00:54:55.620 | (laughs)

00:54:58.220 | He's got such an amazing discipline.

00:55:01.220 | I was so happy for him when he won the medal

00:55:04.500 | at the Olympic game.

00:55:05.780 | Man, what a well-deserved accomplishment.

00:55:09.780 | It's unbelievable.

00:55:13.460 | It paid off.

00:55:15.020 | I was so happy for him.

00:55:16.340 | And every time we got to the gym,

00:55:20.500 | he was waiting for me in the kneeling position

00:55:23.980 | like a soldier.

00:55:24.940 | (laughs)

00:55:26.180 | I was like, my God, this guy is made of steel.

00:55:30.180 | And after training, I always offer him,

00:55:33.620 | I say, hey, Travis, I know you like to train with that

00:55:36.300 | because in Montreal, they have very good judo team,

00:55:38.380 | Nicholas Gill and all those guy.

00:55:40.460 | And I say, if you wanna stay, I'll get you the hotel.

00:55:44.740 | Anything you want, it's like, no, no, I gotta go back.

00:55:46.660 | I gotta have another training later.

00:55:48.060 | I'm like, not only that he trained with us,

00:55:50.580 | he had to go back because he had another training.

00:55:53.220 | I'm like, this is insane.

00:55:55.300 | - And he's gone through a huge number of injuries.

00:55:57.700 | So he's also an innovator because, I mean,

00:56:00.940 | it's difficult to say, but for American judo,

00:56:04.060 | there's not many high level judoka.

00:56:06.660 | So if you want to be the, like,

00:56:09.060 | fight with the best in the world, you have to be alone.

00:56:12.580 | It's a lonely journey, actually.

00:56:14.540 | It's kind of sad.

00:56:15.620 | It's much easier to be in Japan where everybody's a killer.

00:56:19.780 | When you're alone at it, it's a difficult journey.

00:56:23.020 | And it's funny, we talked about kind of,

00:56:27.260 | there's some sports where a mistake is, that's it.

00:56:32.260 | You can't recover from a mistake.

00:56:34.620 | I think judo oftentimes is one of those sports

00:56:37.420 | and added on top of that is the Olympics.

00:56:43.220 | Only every four years.

00:56:45.220 | And Travis's story, he's the reason I,

00:56:47.980 | when I saw him in 2008, is I started martial arts.

00:56:51.660 | I switched from like wrestling and street fighting

00:56:54.700 | to doing jujitsu and judo.

00:56:57.340 | And I just saw so much guts and the, in 2000,

00:57:02.300 | I might be messing up the years here,

00:57:03.860 | but in the next Olympics, he fought

00:57:07.460 | and he lost on just the referee call.

00:57:11.060 | Yeah, and just, he went to war and he just so much guts

00:57:15.820 | and just everything on the line and to lose

00:57:19.540 | and then to still persevere through all the injuries,

00:57:22.100 | through all of that,

00:57:23.060 | through incredibly difficult training sessions

00:57:25.260 | to go another four years and then compete

00:57:28.100 | and then win a medal.

00:57:29.260 | I mean, that guy is just,

00:57:30.620 | and like he clearly could have been very successful.

00:57:35.140 | He's also an incredible jujitsu competitor.

00:57:37.460 | So he could have switched to that, but he's stuck.

00:57:40.780 | - In a lot of sport, when you're in elite,

00:57:45.540 | like for example, in Canada, ice hockey

00:57:48.940 | is the number one sport of the country.

00:57:50.940 | Kids, when they're in elite, when they're young,

00:57:54.460 | they get chosen and they're kind of already

00:57:58.220 | known as a superstar.

00:58:01.540 | You know, the school where they go

00:58:03.820 | and the program they follow,

00:58:05.220 | like I'm sure it's the same thing in US

00:58:06.700 | and basketball, baseball, perhaps American football,

00:58:11.700 | because they already chosen.

00:58:13.940 | So they grew up with that,

00:58:16.020 | that it's a kid that superstar stardom, so to speak.

00:58:21.020 | And it's already glass or glamorous, you know?

00:58:26.260 | However, in MMA, there's no MMA, judo, wrestling,

00:58:31.260 | like in America, because it's not our national sport.

00:58:35.740 | Actually, it's not like, even when I first started,

00:58:38.860 | it was not really well received by the media.

00:58:42.500 | There's no glamor into it.

00:58:44.340 | Now, I don't know, it seems like it's another era now.

00:58:48.660 | And I feel sometimes that some people do it

00:58:53.180 | for the wrong reason.

00:58:54.300 | Some people do it because of the glamor,

00:58:58.420 | because of the money.

00:59:00.020 | But even if you're in elite and very good,

00:59:02.780 | the glamor and the money won't come in the beginning.

00:59:07.540 | It's a very long grind before it start to come in.

00:59:12.540 | And you need to make those sacrifices.

00:59:16.140 | And it's a journey that where you will be tested,

00:59:19.900 | you will be hurt repetitively,

00:59:23.300 | and you're gonna have to reach the down deep

00:59:27.620 | and come back up.

00:59:28.860 | And then once you finally think you made it,

00:59:31.380 | you're gonna go back in the down deep again.

00:59:33.540 | It's a very exhausting and discouraging adventure sometimes.

00:59:38.540 | But if you hold on to your dream and you believe in it,

00:59:43.180 | and you have the stars are aligned, you're gonna make it.

00:59:47.580 | That's why it's only a few people that make it.

00:59:50.180 | And that's why I feel sometimes a lot of people

00:59:55.540 | in the new generation do it for the wrong reason.

00:59:58.140 | In my generation, because of sport,

01:00:00.540 | at first it was, there were no rules.

01:00:02.420 | I felt it was more pure.

01:00:04.860 | The people that did it was really because of the passion.

01:00:07.980 | We didn't seek money and fame.

01:00:11.820 | We did it because we wanted to be,

01:00:14.060 | I did it because I wanted to be the man.

01:00:16.620 | I like to have the confidence that when I walk somewhere,

01:00:20.580 | I have the confidence that it's an illusion

01:00:22.900 | because nobody's faster than a bullet.

01:00:24.740 | But I wanted to achieve it for myself.

01:00:28.860 | And which today now,

01:00:31.420 | because I don't know if it's social media and all that,

01:00:34.220 | the world has changed.

01:00:36.940 | The glamor, I feel it's a different thing right now.

01:00:41.940 | - Yeah, if you get in it for the glamor or the money,

01:00:45.620 | you may not have the right amount of fuel

01:00:48.580 | to persevere through all the ups and downs.

01:00:50.820 | - Yeah. - For sure.

01:00:51.900 | When you talk about motivation of money and glamor,

01:00:57.900 | a guy comes to mind,

01:01:00.260 | and I don't know how many wrestlers you know,

01:01:01.980 | but in Russia, there's a guy named Bovesy Seteev.

01:01:06.980 | The Seteev brothers,

01:01:09.740 | one of the greatest freestyle wrestlers of all time.

01:01:12.980 | But he also has, it's funny,

01:01:15.340 | he doesn't have many interviews.

01:01:17.140 | One of my goals is to go out and talk to him in Russian,

01:01:19.600 | do an interview with him

01:01:20.900 | because he's exceptionally poetic and a deep thinker.

01:01:24.460 | He's the kind of martial artist that you are

01:01:27.300 | in the way that it's not just about the different battles

01:01:30.100 | you've been through or whatever.

01:01:31.680 | It's about the philosophy behind the way he approaches life.

01:01:35.500 | Now he has spoken quite a bit about that the glamor,

01:01:39.520 | the fame, the money are all things that get in the way

01:01:43.340 | of the purity of the experience, the art,

01:01:48.020 | that the way to achieve greatness

01:01:50.060 | is to just lose yourself in the art

01:01:53.020 | of the actual combat.

01:01:56.260 | In his case, it's wrestling.

01:01:58.460 | And then kind of not to worry and actively make sure

01:02:02.740 | that you block out anybody who feeds you the narrative

01:02:07.740 | where you're supposed to be this famous person

01:02:10.380 | and all those kinds of things that he basically says,

01:02:13.420 | let others write your story.

01:02:16.500 | Make sure that you just focus on the art.

01:02:19.140 | And another person from that side of the world

01:02:21.960 | is of course, Khabib.

01:02:24.140 | So he represents that side of the world.

01:02:26.460 | And we were talking about walking away

01:02:28.820 | and most people not being able to walk away

01:02:31.460 | at the top as you have,

01:02:34.140 | but also now Khabib has, it looks like incredibly so.

01:02:39.140 | So, I mean, maybe you can comment about

01:02:42.260 | what your thoughts are about Khabib,

01:02:44.500 | not bringing him out of being able to just walk away.

01:02:47.740 | - You know, we talk about the gold very often.

01:02:50.300 | Khabib is one of, isn't the argument

01:02:53.600 | because he has the most dominant carrier

01:02:58.280 | of all martial art, the guy.

01:03:01.240 | Some guys can be named the gold for different reason,

01:03:03.880 | but Khabib for that reason, and he's undefeated.

01:03:06.800 | I don't even know if he lost, he might have lost round,

01:03:12.320 | but he dominate all his opponent.

01:03:15.360 | It was ridiculous.

01:03:17.360 | And such an incredible carrier that he had.

01:03:20.100 | I love to watch him fight, he's incredible.

01:03:25.040 | And when you talk about the art,

01:03:29.120 | when you say mixed martial art,

01:03:31.000 | the idea of a flawless performance for me,

01:03:37.240 | everybody often when we say flawless performance

01:03:42.800 | thinks about a knockout, a brutal knockout.

01:03:46.920 | But for me, it's to be able to showcase beautiful technique,

01:03:51.920 | like a beautiful takedown, beautiful submission,

01:03:56.760 | like something beautiful that,

01:03:58.740 | you know, when you look at, for example,

01:04:03.120 | Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan or like Stephen Curry,

01:04:09.680 | even if you don't know nothing about basketball

01:04:14.320 | and you watch Michael Jordan,

01:04:16.720 | you'll be like, wow, that's beautiful what he just did.

01:04:19.720 | Like we talk about fighting and trying to say

01:04:23.280 | the word beautiful in fighting for certain people,

01:04:26.160 | it could sound kind of crazy, you know,

01:04:28.320 | but I'm talking about the technique, a beautiful technique.

01:04:33.320 | You know, for me, that's the goal.

01:04:35.280 | You know, when I was fighting,

01:04:36.440 | it's not only to have a brutal knockout

01:04:38.520 | because some people are more gifted than others.

01:04:41.280 | I'm saying gifted, some people are better than others

01:04:43.360 | in certain phase of fighting.

01:04:46.160 | But for me, it was that, it was to showcase,

01:04:48.520 | to win, of course, but to showcase some beautiful technique

01:04:52.440 | that you can watch it and be like,

01:04:55.200 | wow, that was incredible, the timing he did it.

01:04:58.800 | And when I think about Khabib Nurmagomedov,

01:05:03.440 | I see all the detail of his work,

01:05:06.040 | especially when he's got his opponent against the fence,

01:05:08.880 | that's like, that's his area of expertise

01:05:11.680 | where he's, to me, he's the best that ever did it

01:05:15.200 | in terms of that fighting style,

01:05:18.320 | that particular expertise that he has, it's just incredible.

01:05:22.040 | - The flawless execution of that particular set of techniques.

01:05:25.440 | - Yeah, and Conor McGregor at the accuracy.

01:05:29.920 | The Spider, Anderson Silva was like,

01:05:34.280 | was I would say the most flamboyant of all, you know,

01:05:37.600 | like he was moving like the Matrix.

01:05:40.000 | Jon Jones was incredible in terms of creativity,

01:05:43.000 | spinning elbows and that, and he faced incredible adversity.

01:05:48.000 | Dmitriy Ruzhansky was so complete.

01:05:51.680 | You could bring, like he was slamming a guy to an armbar.

01:05:54.920 | It was just unbelievable.

01:05:56.040 | Like, he was like the complete fighter.

01:05:59.680 | BJ Penn was like so flexible.

01:06:02.200 | He did stuff with his body that like nobody could do.

01:06:05.880 | His, the dexterity of his hips was just unbelievable.

01:06:09.080 | Dominic Cruz, to me, it was incredible.

01:06:12.600 | His footwork, his distance control.

01:06:14.800 | So when you talk about like the GOAT,

01:06:18.000 | Royce Gracie, another one,

01:06:19.560 | he did things that I think for me is the number one because-

01:06:22.040 | - Yeah, I gotta, and sorry to interrupt,

01:06:24.000 | the hoist is a fascinating one.

01:06:25.280 | I'd love to hear what you think about him,

01:06:26.760 | but many people consider you,

01:06:30.560 | most people consider you to be the number one

01:06:34.160 | greatest mixed martial arts fighter ever.

01:06:38.160 | So it's fascinating to remove you from that list

01:06:41.560 | and continue this discussion and asking like,

01:06:44.520 | who do you think is the greatest fighter ever?

01:06:46.600 | You listed some amazing ones.

01:06:48.400 | Hoist, you somehow skipped Fedor.

01:06:51.280 | I'm very, as a Russian, I'm very offended.

01:06:53.400 | - No, I was going to, there's so many.

01:06:55.800 | Fedor is one as well.

01:06:57.360 | Fedor, I think in his prime was like,

01:06:59.800 | when you say, when you talk about a name, for example,

01:07:02.640 | like we talk about him when he was in his prime.

01:07:07.160 | Like when I talk, for example, about Anderson Silva,

01:07:09.360 | I'm not talking about the Anderson Silva

01:07:11.320 | who fought his last fight against Uriah Hall.

01:07:14.680 | I'm talking about the Anderson Silva

01:07:16.080 | who knocked out Victor Belfer.

01:07:17.800 | Yes, BJ Penn, same thing.

01:07:21.320 | The problem is when fighters hang on

01:07:23.920 | for too long in the sport.

01:07:25.360 | That's what happened.

01:07:26.200 | They kind of make people forget how good they were.

01:07:31.200 | And it's very sad.

01:07:33.160 | We talk about Fedor and just think about Stipe Miocic.

01:07:37.960 | Miocic is probably the greatest heavyweight of all time.

01:07:41.080 | With Fedor, I would really wonder

01:07:43.680 | who would have won this fight,

01:07:45.480 | the both guys in their prime.

01:07:47.000 | I tend to lean towards Fedor

01:07:49.840 | because my heart was with Fedor,

01:07:51.560 | but he could have gone the other way.

01:07:52.920 | But just because Miocic lose his last fight,

01:07:55.920 | now everybody is like, "Oh yeah."

01:07:57.240 | They forgot about him.

01:07:58.800 | It's crazy, man.

01:08:00.280 | It's one fight.

01:08:01.440 | You zig when you should zag, boom.

01:08:03.360 | That's the reality of mixed martial art.

01:08:06.680 | - Well, that's why the thing is,

01:08:08.240 | the mixed martial arts isn't just the performance,

01:08:12.720 | the strictly who won and who lost.

01:08:14.400 | It's also the stories we tell ourselves.

01:08:16.360 | And so, I mean, there's beautiful stories being weaved.

01:08:20.200 | And that also is part of who is the greatest of all time

01:08:24.360 | is what were the battles?

01:08:27.000 | What had to be overcome?

01:08:29.640 | What was the flavor of the flawless performances?

01:08:35.560 | All of that plays into it.

01:08:37.880 | And you're right, being able to walk away at the top

01:08:40.600 | is also part of that.

01:08:42.360 | - A lot of people ask me about Khabib.

01:08:45.040 | And that fight, I wanted to happen.

01:08:49.960 | Khabib wanted to happen,

01:08:51.320 | but UFC did not want to happen.

01:08:53.680 | - Between you and Khabib.

01:08:54.720 | - Yes.

01:08:55.560 | And we tried to make it like about three years ago

01:08:58.280 | when I retired.

01:08:59.720 | No, it was after two years ago.

01:09:03.280 | And it never came to fruition.

01:09:05.880 | The UFC were clear.

01:09:07.000 | They said they have other plan for Khabib.

01:09:09.440 | And it makes sense for the business standpoint

01:09:12.160 | because they want to keep the ball rolling.

01:09:14.320 | Now Khabib retired.

01:09:16.600 | And like everybody else, after Justin Gaethje,

01:09:20.040 | I was doing the commentator in French for the UFC.

01:09:23.000 | And I had Butterfly.

01:09:24.160 | I thought he was going to call me out.

01:09:25.760 | (laughing)

01:09:26.840 | If there is one guy that I would have said yes,

01:09:28.960 | it would be him because for a fighter,

01:09:30.920 | the most exciting things to do,

01:09:33.800 | it's often the scariest one.

01:09:36.000 | And Khabib was worth-

01:09:38.360 | - He's the scariest matchup?

01:09:40.400 | - Yes, but he was worth the risk

01:09:43.800 | because nobody have ever been able to solve them.

01:09:47.560 | - How would you solve the Khabib,

01:09:49.160 | no matter how many of them out of puzzle?

01:09:50.640 | - Well, Khabib is very good against the fence.

01:09:54.000 | I would have to establish a game plan and everything.

01:09:58.640 | But I think what I would need it to do

01:10:02.960 | is take the center of the octagon right away.

01:10:05.520 | Use a lot of think and faith.

01:10:07.840 | Keep the fight all the way out or all the way in.

01:10:11.960 | And when I say all the way in,

01:10:13.000 | is when you close the gap,

01:10:14.320 | use my proactive and reactive takedown

01:10:16.680 | and perhaps my superior explosivity to put him down.

01:10:20.360 | I like to use those proactive and reactive takedown

01:10:23.960 | because for me, I feel it's more economical.

01:10:27.320 | Khabib is a much better chain wrestler than me.

01:10:30.320 | Chain wrestler is when you got the guys to the fence,

01:10:32.440 | it's pure wrestling.

01:10:34.000 | What makes my takedown very efficient,

01:10:36.840 | it's my karate, it's not my wrestling.

01:10:39.160 | I'm very good at timing my opponent

01:10:43.240 | and getting in with my explosivity.

01:10:47.800 | So if you watch at my takedown,

01:10:49.400 | it does not demand a lot of work.

01:10:52.840 | I call it proactive takedown.

01:10:55.960 | When he's coming to punch me and I react.

01:10:59.320 | So I mean, proactive is when I'm faking it.

01:11:03.200 | So I instigate the takedown by a fake,

01:11:07.280 | then I take him down.

01:11:08.640 | And reactive is when I'm baiting him to throw something,

01:11:12.200 | then I'm going. - As a counter.

01:11:13.640 | Yeah, yeah. - Yes.

01:11:14.800 | But all my takedowns- - In the center of the octagon.

01:11:17.120 | - Yes, my takedowns are more in the center of the octagon.

01:11:20.120 | Like for example, another guy that does it well

01:11:22.120 | is Gleason Thibaud, that did it well in his best days.

01:11:26.600 | Khabib has more a style of chain wrestling,

01:11:28.760 | I would say like Kamaru Usman, so to speak, kind of guy.

01:11:32.360 | It's a different style.

01:11:33.640 | You cannot compare both styles.

01:11:35.320 | And that's the kind of takedown I'm good.

01:11:38.280 | And if I would have fight Khabib,

01:11:40.360 | that's one of the strategy I would have adopted.

01:11:42.520 | I wouldn't have been afraid

01:11:43.840 | because everybody that I fought,

01:11:45.120 | I was able to put them down.

01:11:46.760 | And I have the pedigree to prove it in my fight resume.

01:11:51.760 | So you would have perhaps seen my back

01:11:54.800 | and I would have perhaps be in my back as well.

01:11:57.040 | So it would have been a very interesting fight.

01:11:59.320 | - How hard do you think he is to take down?

01:12:01.280 | I mean, a lot of people speak about his wrestling being-

01:12:04.400 | - It has nothing to do with the wrestling because-

01:12:07.600 | - That's due to the karate.

01:12:08.440 | - If I got the timing and I got my both hand

01:12:10.840 | around his knees, he's going down the other way.

01:12:13.080 | - Everybody goes down, yeah.

01:12:14.360 | - Yes, yes, he goes down.

01:12:16.040 | And I had a lot of that.

01:12:18.280 | That's what I would have adopted.

01:12:19.520 | I would not have been afraid of his wrestling.

01:12:23.200 | I would have be the instigator.

01:12:24.960 | I would have forced the fight forward.

01:12:27.880 | And that's how I would have approached that fight,

01:12:30.760 | which I believe most of his opponent

01:12:33.880 | were afraid of his wrestling

01:12:36.240 | because they didn't have the tools

01:12:37.560 | that I have to put him down.

01:12:40.080 | I would not have forced the wrestling.

01:12:41.760 | I would have, in the clinch,

01:12:43.280 | I would have tried to disengage.

01:12:44.760 | I have many ways to disengage the clinch.

01:12:47.720 | I would have wanted to force the fight

01:12:49.480 | in a fighting distance,

01:12:52.280 | you know, like in a shoot box distance,

01:12:54.720 | not in a wrestling distance.

01:12:57.320 | - Is it possible this fight still happens?

01:13:00.840 | You're young, look great in the suit.

01:13:05.240 | - Well, there's a lot of problems now.

01:13:10.200 | And the thing is, now I made peace with it.

01:13:13.480 | I no longer don't want to fight.

01:13:16.720 | And I don't, it's not going to happen.

01:13:18.080 | UFC was not interested.

01:13:19.440 | And I'm bound by contract with the UFC and by exclusivity.

01:13:24.000 | There's some people says to me,

01:13:25.440 | "Oh, how about if Russians,

01:13:26.960 | a crazy wealthy Russian guy come with the money?"

01:13:31.960 | I said, "I'm going to be in court with UFC."

01:13:36.880 | And also I'm older now.

01:13:39.560 | And when I go home, man, I'm like,

01:13:41.520 | I don't want to do this, you know?

01:13:44.040 | - But you were always like this.

01:13:45.720 | - No, but I don't want to do this.

01:13:46.600 | But like, for example, I was training with Freddie Roach.

01:13:49.360 | A few days ago and I'm hitting pads, you know?

01:13:51.840 | (imitates punching)

01:13:53.160 | And Freddie's looking at me and he's like,

01:13:54.680 | "Hey, you have the hitch back."

01:13:56.280 | I'm like, "Yeah."

01:13:57.240 | If Dana White would walk in the room, in the gym,

01:14:00.680 | at that precise moment with a UFC contract,

01:14:03.800 | I would sign it in the blink of an eye.

01:14:06.880 | But then after I go home, I'm like, "Hell no."

01:14:10.360 | My belly is full, I'm healthy, I'm wealthy.

01:14:15.760 | Why would I want to fight for?

01:14:17.720 | I made peace with it.

01:14:18.960 | But the minute I go back in the gym,

01:14:20.800 | because I still get it inside me,

01:14:22.360 | when I train with the young guys, I still get it.

01:14:25.080 | And a lot of guys think, say,

01:14:27.200 | "Tell me the truth, you're preparing a comeback."

01:14:29.280 | 'Cause I still get it.

01:14:30.120 | You know, I'm a little bit older, but I got more knowledge.

01:14:33.000 | I can compensate.

01:14:34.160 | I become a different animal because it changed you.

01:14:40.560 | But then after you go home and you're like,

01:14:43.360 | "Man, no way I'm doing this."

01:14:45.400 | (both laugh)

01:14:47.000 | It's very hard to explain.

01:14:48.280 | You need to be a fighter to understand that.

01:14:51.000 | It's very, very hard to explain.

01:14:53.280 | - Well, from your perspective, I think,

01:14:55.360 | Khabib is one of the rare,

01:14:57.640 | one of the few fascinating scientific puzzles

01:15:00.400 | yet to be solved.

01:15:01.520 | So from that aspect, as a martial artist,

01:15:04.200 | it's just a fascinating journey

01:15:05.760 | to try to solve that puzzle.

01:15:07.160 | - There is a thing too, like we say,

01:15:09.040 | "Oh, who's the best fighter?"

01:15:10.320 | People, like I realized that later in my life.

01:15:16.680 | And I'm sure a lot of young guy will say,

01:15:18.720 | "Oh, St-Pierre, don't speak for me."

01:15:22.160 | But I'm telling you right now,

01:15:23.920 | what I'm about to say, you will realize it later.

01:15:27.240 | When I was young, I think you can proclaim yourself

01:15:30.480 | the baddest man on the planet.

01:15:33.480 | You know, like nobody can beat you at.

01:15:36.040 | It's an illusion, man.

01:15:37.520 | - That's the sad thing about, for example, DC.

01:15:40.000 | Daniel Kormien is probably one of the greatest,

01:15:43.720 | if not the greatest of all time.

01:15:46.360 | You said Neochish, but like,

01:15:48.600 | it's almost because of that little matchup with Jon Jones,

01:15:51.800 | it's difficult for people to conceive of him

01:15:54.960 | as the greatest of all time.

01:15:56.320 | - It's all about matchup.

01:15:57.640 | It's all about timing.

01:15:59.040 | And also you make a fight,

01:16:01.640 | you make both guys fight 10 times.

01:16:04.760 | The result might be different.

01:16:07.480 | Like every time, you know, I mean,

01:16:11.480 | maybe he's gonna win eight out of 10,

01:16:14.240 | but that night he's gonna lose.

01:16:16.760 | Why?

01:16:17.600 | Because we don't know the universe made it like that.

01:16:19.880 | You know, maybe he got sick,

01:16:20.920 | maybe he had the emotional issues,

01:16:23.000 | he didn't sleep well,

01:16:23.920 | and he makes him lose focus and he got caught.

01:16:28.120 | We don't know, but that's the thing.

01:16:31.800 | People ask me, would you have done it with Khabib?

01:16:34.040 | What would happen?

01:16:34.880 | I don't know, maybe out of 10 times, I don't know.

01:16:37.040 | Maybe as a fighter, I hope I would have win more than him.

01:16:40.960 | He thinks the opposite.

01:16:42.760 | It's only one way to find out,

01:16:43.920 | but that night, if there is a fight,

01:16:47.200 | the guy that gonna win doesn't mean he's the best fighter.

01:16:49.200 | That's mean he's the one that fought the best

01:16:53.360 | the night of the fight.

01:16:54.200 | Same thing in basketball or hockey.

01:16:56.680 | The team that wins the game,

01:16:58.560 | it's not necessarily the best team.

01:17:00.240 | It's the team that play the best the night of the game.

01:17:04.800 | And fighting is no different.

01:17:06.520 | So being the baddest man on the planet, it's an illusion.

01:17:12.000 | - I mean, that's the tragic thing about it

01:17:13.640 | is on any one night, anything can happen.

01:17:16.880 | And then that tells a story for all of human history.

01:17:19.560 | It's sad to think about,

01:17:23.680 | but that's what makes it beautiful

01:17:24.960 | that there's so much at stake, like entire lives,

01:17:29.200 | all the dreams you've had growing up, all the hard work,

01:17:31.960 | all of it is decided in a single night,

01:17:34.320 | even though that means nothing

01:17:35.640 | in terms of who's actually better.

01:17:37.400 | I mean, that's the beauty.

01:17:40.520 | That's why people love the Olympics especially

01:17:42.520 | 'cause it happens so rarely and dreams are broken

01:17:47.000 | or like triumph is achieved by the unlikely hero

01:17:52.000 | all like right there.

01:17:54.920 | I mean, that's why we love it, right?

01:17:56.600 | That's why we love it.

01:17:58.640 | - If we would know always the result

01:18:00.800 | before it would be boring, that's why we do it.

01:18:03.200 | You watch the odds, like sometimes I like to watch the odds

01:18:08.920 | before a fight because there's things,

01:18:13.920 | I believe in causality.

01:18:16.920 | I believe in everybody believe different things,

01:18:20.000 | but I believe everything is because

01:18:22.080 | there's a cause to everything.

01:18:24.560 | That's personally what I believe.

01:18:26.440 | I don't believe that I have like free will.

01:18:29.880 | I think I have the illusion of free will,

01:18:31.440 | but I believe there is a cause for everything.

01:18:34.200 | And if I'm doing something because of something,

01:18:37.000 | because of a cause by definition,

01:18:38.560 | there's no free will in a way.

01:18:40.240 | If there's a cause by definition, there is not.

01:18:43.840 | - How does that make you feel by the way?

01:18:45.240 | Like the idea that if we just look outside

01:18:48.680 | even just human psychology and fighting and so on,

01:18:51.440 | if we look at like physics, if everything's predetermined,

01:18:54.160 | if all of these little molecules interacting,

01:18:56.960 | it's all already like your story is already written.

01:19:00.360 | - I mean, it's written, but I would need to know

01:19:04.160 | all the data and it's impossible, right?

01:19:06.480 | Like it's kind of weird, I gotta say, but I don't,

01:19:11.480 | to me, I don't see any argument to counter that idea.

01:19:16.800 | Maybe I'm ignorant, but I haven't seen nobody

01:19:22.640 | and everything that I've read so far,

01:19:25.200 | there is nothing that counter that idea that,

01:19:28.720 | because in a mechanical world, if your car broke,

01:19:32.280 | or we don't say, oh, the car decided to broke,

01:19:36.120 | or a tree is fall, there's reason why the tree is fall,

01:19:40.840 | if we don't say the tree is decide to fall, right?

01:19:43.360 | So because us human being, I think it's our ego,

01:19:46.520 | we decide, and I'm no different than anybody,

01:19:49.680 | when I make a decision, I decided to do this,

01:19:52.400 | I choose to do this, but I'm aware that there is causes

01:19:57.400 | that make me do certain things.

01:20:03.160 | And by definition, I think if there is a cause,

01:20:05.840 | there is no free will, by definition, right?

01:20:09.480 | - Yes, but the thing is, just like you said,

01:20:11.880 | we understand so little about human intelligence,

01:20:15.040 | the human mind, and especially consciousness,

01:20:17.960 | that this giant mystery, this darkness,

01:20:22.960 | that we don't understand how it feels like to be something,

01:20:29.680 | to be a conscious being, that because of that,

01:20:33.640 | we're not able to really even reason about free will or not.

01:20:38.160 | 'Cause there might be some magic

01:20:40.560 | that comes from consciousness.

01:20:43.000 | The consciousness might be the thing that makes us different

01:20:47.960 | from a car that breaks down.

01:20:49.820 | There might be something totally fascinating,

01:20:54.080 | totally undiscovered yet, that will make us realize

01:20:58.640 | that free will is actually real,

01:21:00.360 | and is somehow fundamental to the human experience.

01:21:03.120 | So, sometimes I think we forget,

01:21:07.640 | when we talk about free will and physics,

01:21:11.360 | and it all seeming to be predetermined,

01:21:14.520 | we forget how little we actually understand about the world.

01:21:18.220 | And I think in that mystery,

01:21:20.600 | that could be totally new ideas

01:21:22.920 | that are yet to be discovered,

01:21:24.280 | and will make us realize that it's not just an illusion.

01:21:28.720 | It is something that is at the core

01:21:31.520 | of how the universe works.

01:21:33.520 | Some people believe that consciousness

01:21:35.920 | is a fundamental property of the universe.

01:21:39.640 | Like it's one of the forces of physics.

01:21:42.320 | Consciousness permeates everything, in everything.

01:21:46.360 | Like this table is conscious,

01:21:47.840 | but it's not as conscious as us,

01:21:50.560 | and we're this little peak of consciousness.

01:21:52.960 | And if that's true, and if we get to understand that,

01:21:56.120 | maybe there's something,

01:21:57.720 | there's an extra bonus we get in terms of free will,

01:22:01.600 | once you become one of those entities

01:22:04.200 | that are super conscious.

01:22:05.760 | So, I tend to be sort of humbled by the mystery of it.

01:22:10.720 | - Do you believe one day,

01:22:13.520 | with the technology that keep improving,

01:22:17.240 | we will make robot that will be able to

01:22:23.240 | be somehow conscious?

01:22:26.040 | - Absolutely.

01:22:27.160 | That's been my dream.

01:22:28.560 | That's been, I hope to do just that.

01:22:31.520 | First of all, I believe that all people are capable

01:22:34.680 | and want to be good to each other.

01:22:37.440 | And I think love is a really powerful thing

01:22:42.440 | that connects us and can create better and better worlds.

01:22:46.280 | Sort of like create better and better societies

01:22:50.800 | that improve both the technology, the quality of life,

01:22:54.360 | and just the basics of human experience.

01:22:56.840 | And I think creating AI systems that are conscious,

01:23:00.320 | that are human-like,

01:23:01.800 | can enable us to be better to each other.

01:23:05.240 | Like they can, it's almost like adding more and more

01:23:09.440 | kindness to the world through the systems we interact with

01:23:13.600 | will inspire us to be better and better to each other.

01:23:16.440 | In terms of them being conscious,

01:23:18.620 | I think that is an absolute requirement

01:23:22.580 | that entities we interact with

01:23:25.380 | communicate some element of consciousness to us.

01:23:29.740 | Like that's how we connect to each other.

01:23:31.540 | The reason you and I connect

01:23:34.060 | is that we believe that each of us are conscious.

01:23:37.620 | And to me, what consciousness means

01:23:39.520 | is the ability to hurt, ability to suffer,

01:23:43.560 | to struggle in this world.

01:23:46.320 | Because just like you said,

01:23:48.760 | without the struggle, you don't have the love,

01:23:52.620 | you don't have the pleasure.

01:23:54.100 | And ultimately consciousness is an entity's ability

01:23:58.500 | to struggle, to suffer.

01:24:00.980 | And from that arises the pleasure.

01:24:03.700 | And us together being able to appreciate

01:24:08.700 | sort of appreciate the highs

01:24:13.900 | and experience together the lows.

01:24:17.140 | That's how we form the deep connections.

01:24:19.440 | I personally think we can create that in robots.

01:24:21.620 | And I personally believe it's a lot easier than we think.

01:24:25.940 | - Does it make you afraid sometimes

01:24:28.740 | about the fact that one day, hey, hi,

01:24:32.660 | like artificial intelligence could hurt us?

01:24:37.660 | Or, you know, like, because of Hollywood, of course,

01:24:41.940 | you know, the movies we watch,

01:24:43.080 | but it seems like when I hear sometimes Elon Musk talking,

01:24:46.900 | you know, like.

01:24:48.180 | - Yeah, so Elon talks about with AI,

01:24:51.420 | we're summoning the demon.

01:24:53.300 | He is very concerned.

01:24:55.420 | And I talked to him about it quite a bit.

01:24:57.580 | He's very concerned about all the different ways

01:24:59.780 | AI could hurt us humans.

01:25:01.680 | I tend to believe that there's a lot more ways

01:25:05.780 | in which AI can make our lives better

01:25:08.500 | and can make life awesome for humans.

01:25:11.180 | I think humans are the ones that can do a lot of evil things.

01:25:16.180 | So I'm less worried about AI, I'm more worried about humans.

01:25:20.140 | If I look at what human have done on the course of history,

01:25:24.940 | you know, for example,

01:25:26.740 | in regards to the planet, to the scale of the universe,

01:25:32.460 | I think what I'm afraid is that we have more

01:25:36.060 | of a destructive force than a beneficial force.

01:25:40.980 | So if AI take that in consideration

01:25:44.220 | in order to protect us against ourself,

01:25:48.620 | it could hurt us.

01:25:50.540 | I don't know if you understand what,

01:25:52.140 | like, what do you think about that?

01:25:54.300 | Does it makes you afraid sometime?

01:25:56.900 | Not because of AI, but because of what humans are doing

01:26:00.900 | that AI could do to us to prevent us

01:26:04.180 | of hurting ourself, you know?

01:26:06.980 | - Yeah, no, I mean, definitely it can bring out

01:26:09.260 | the worst in human nature

01:26:11.220 | and provide tools for evil people

01:26:16.180 | to do evil things at a larger scale.

01:26:19.100 | But I just think,

01:26:20.440 | it depends what you think human beings are.

01:26:24.300 | I tend to believe that as we get more intelligent,

01:26:27.960 | we start to see the value, the evolutionary value,

01:26:35.140 | and the value in terms of happiness

01:26:36.620 | of being good to each other.

01:26:37.940 | And I think AI, if you look at AI

01:26:40.300 | as an optimization problem

01:26:41.820 | of how to create a civilization that works well

01:26:44.100 | and expands throughout the universe,

01:26:46.060 | I think love is much more effective.

01:26:50.020 | So AI will help us maximize that.

01:26:53.420 | I think there's going to be always spikes throughout

01:26:56.420 | as it has been through human history

01:26:58.420 | where charismatic leaders will do evil

01:27:01.780 | onto the world in the name of good.

01:27:03.940 | You have the Stalin and the Hitlers and all of that.

01:27:07.100 | But ultimately, over time,

01:27:11.660 | I think technology will give the good people power

01:27:16.660 | and the evil people less power.

01:27:21.900 | Now, there's a lot of ways in that,

01:27:23.860 | that that won't be the case.

01:27:26.820 | There's a lot of ways for it to go wrong.

01:27:28.420 | And Elon talks about them,

01:27:29.620 | but I honestly think in terms of intelligent AI,

01:27:35.140 | that's going to bring more love to the world.

01:27:37.500 | The thing I'm concerned about is dumb AI.

01:27:40.780 | So there's been a lot of discussion

01:27:43.260 | between China and the United States recently

01:27:45.080 | on autonomous weapons system.

01:27:47.300 | This is something people don't,

01:27:49.140 | they're afraid to talk about.

01:27:50.620 | But there's now a race

01:27:54.020 | where the United States has officially said

01:27:58.500 | that they're not against adding AI to its weapon systems.

01:28:03.340 | So now the US military is adding automation,

01:28:08.340 | adding intelligence to its drones,

01:28:12.060 | to its anything that can create damage.

01:28:15.900 | And so of course,

01:28:17.140 | and they did this so in response to China doing that.

01:28:21.140 | So you can imagine this is Terminator.

01:28:24.540 | You think about Terminator as intelligent systems,

01:28:27.480 | they're not, they're pretty dumb.

01:28:30.340 | The point is they're efficient at doing what they do.

01:28:34.180 | And in the space of war,

01:28:36.380 | efficient at doing what you do means killing.

01:28:39.540 | So that I'm really afraid of, but those are dumb AI.

01:28:42.980 | Those aren't your loving, deep, fulfilling relationships.

01:28:47.980 | That's like efficiently being able to fly,

01:28:53.340 | to plan the trajectory of dropping bombs, of missiles,

01:28:56.980 | of how to do counter attacks,

01:28:59.080 | of how to maximize the destruction of a particular facility

01:29:02.260 | instead of individuals.

01:29:03.900 | And then that can just escalate.

01:29:06.360 | And as opposed to the Cold War with the Soviet Union,

01:29:10.660 | this could be a hot war.

01:29:12.380 | And then the consequences, once you allow,

01:29:17.380 | it's kind of terrifying.

01:29:19.260 | 'Cause currently the drones are operated by humans.

01:29:21.940 | So you have, say you have information,

01:29:27.060 | about intelligence gives you information

01:29:29.860 | about a particular terrorist located in this area.

01:29:32.980 | And then you use drones to maybe,

01:29:36.700 | the automation there is to help you figure out

01:29:39.780 | what is the best trajectory to strike at that location.

01:29:44.220 | So you still have a human that pulls the trigger at the end,

01:29:48.500 | dropping the bomb.

01:29:49.740 | Now, automation and AI and autonomous weapons systems

01:29:54.220 | might be where you say, there's a bad guy over here.

01:29:58.620 | You figure out how to get rid of the bad guy.

01:30:02.300 | So then of course the systems will be very good

01:30:04.780 | at finding the right trajectory and so on.

01:30:07.580 | But there's bugs that can happen, unexpected bugs,

01:30:12.580 | that the system might figure out that there is,

01:30:15.420 | this bad guy might actually be in these other five locations.

01:30:20.040 | So it might make sense to cover the entire area, right?

01:30:24.620 | And so you might drop bombs on the entire area.

01:30:28.540 | And then, that's just, okay, so that's going to lead

01:30:32.020 | to a lot of destruction at the scale of a city.

01:30:34.160 | But then you can immediately take that to nuclear weapons.

01:30:37.540 | If you add automation to responding to counter attacks

01:30:41.400 | to nuclear weapons, you might get information

01:30:44.660 | that somebody's planning a nuclear attack

01:30:46.260 | on the United States.

01:30:47.440 | And the AI system will immediately respond.

01:30:50.380 | And it can respond to the scale

01:30:52.720 | of launching nuclear weapons itself.

01:30:54.760 | And so there's all of these possibilities

01:30:57.160 | that don't require much intelligence.

01:30:59.240 | And that's exceptionally concerning.

01:31:04.240 | - I'm like you, I do not believe there is babies

01:31:08.100 | that are born bad.

01:31:09.240 | I think people do bad things because of their experience.

01:31:15.360 | However, if I look through my experience

01:31:19.720 | and from what I can see, very often,

01:31:22.840 | men of power wants more power.

01:31:26.840 | That's what makes me afraid with-

01:31:31.540 | - Yeah, no, absolutely.

01:31:32.760 | I, listen, I've been, I've come from the Soviet Union.

01:31:36.400 | Stalin is arguably one of the most powerful humans

01:31:39.780 | in history.

01:31:41.120 | He's not talked often enough about by the evils he's done.

01:31:44.040 | Hitler gets all the attention,

01:31:45.800 | but Stalin has done arguably much more evil than Hitler.

01:31:50.080 | Yeah, well, this is human nature.

01:31:52.200 | It wants power.

01:31:53.820 | We see that with institutions.

01:31:55.160 | We see that with governments and nations.

01:31:57.360 | I think you see this with the internet.

01:32:01.000 | People are really hungry for the distribution of power.

01:32:05.800 | Like you see that people are very much distrustful

01:32:09.400 | of centralized places of power, of institutions and so on.

01:32:12.660 | So I think successful organizations, successful companies,

01:32:16.960 | successful governments will be run by people

01:32:20.360 | who distribute the power.

01:32:22.000 | Like I don't trust myself with power at all.

01:32:24.720 | And I think you have to build into the system

01:32:28.520 | that no one person can have power, that you distribute it.

01:32:32.780 | That's where you have, in the financial sector,

01:32:35.040 | you have cryptocurrency right now with Bitcoin

01:32:37.120 | and all those kinds of things.

01:32:38.360 | People are exploring,

01:32:40.000 | how can we avoid the central bank to have the control?

01:32:44.360 | How do you put the power in the hands of people,

01:32:47.120 | thousands of people, millions of people?

01:32:49.160 | And in the same way with military,

01:32:52.420 | with any kind of, with technology,

01:32:57.420 | I think the future looks very distributed.

01:33:00.860 | - What do you think about militarizing space?

01:33:03.600 | - The Space Force.

01:33:07.560 | I don't think about it often

01:33:09.880 | because right now I'm filled with excitement

01:33:12.440 | about space exploration, which is the positive aspect.

01:33:15.680 | So Elon, I was born in an era where it was exciting.

01:33:20.680 | I don't know about you,

01:33:22.900 | but for me it's exciting to look up to the stars

01:33:25.720 | and dream about us humans colonizing Mars,

01:33:30.720 | colonizing other planets,

01:33:32.720 | expanding out to the galaxy, into the universe.

01:33:35.320 | That's really exciting.

01:33:38.040 | So the possibilities there are endless.

01:33:43.040 | I don't think, because also the resources are endless.

01:33:47.440 | And so I think we get into trouble with militarization,

01:33:51.120 | with wars, when the resources are very constrained.

01:33:54.920 | So I think for a while we're not going to be fighting.

01:33:59.520 | The only wars we'll be fighting in space

01:34:02.160 | are the ones that kind of help us.

01:34:05.200 | - Another nation to compete.

01:34:07.240 | Who goes to the moon first, I guess.

01:34:09.000 | - That's those kinds of things.

01:34:11.120 | Or maybe for satellites

01:34:12.600 | and all of those kinds of communication

01:34:14.200 | and maybe in assistance for like cyber warfare,

01:34:17.840 | which is also very dangerous.

01:34:19.040 | But in terms of the wars out in space,

01:34:22.840 | I think everything out in space

01:34:26.280 | will be positive and inspiring.

01:34:28.880 | It's very hard, but all good things are hard, I think.

01:34:33.320 | This is where I've been talking to a bunch of people

01:34:35.600 | about extraterrestrial life.

01:34:38.880 | I'm really excited by, I don't know, it's the other thing.

01:34:43.880 | When I look out to the stars, it's exciting to me.

01:34:48.240 | I know I think you've spoken about it being scary,

01:34:51.520 | but to me it's exciting

01:34:52.880 | that there's intelligent creatures out there

01:34:55.280 | far beyond perhaps the intelligence of our own

01:34:58.560 | that are just too far away to explore yet,

01:35:01.440 | but we might one day come in contact with them.

01:35:04.680 | So that to me is the ultimate motivator,

01:35:07.920 | is to meet other intelligence life forms out there

01:35:11.680 | and connect with them.

01:35:12.920 | - Have you ever meet Jacques Vallée?

01:35:16.040 | - No, but I've been in communication.

01:35:17.640 | I hope to talk to him.

01:35:19.240 | He's amazing.

01:35:20.080 | - He's French, yeah.

01:35:20.920 | I know that there's many theories about,

01:35:25.160 | you know, if they're resilient, we don't know, right?

01:35:27.520 | But some people think it's from another star systems.

01:35:31.800 | Jacques Vallée has a, like to make a long story short,

01:35:35.120 | he has a different theory.

01:35:36.400 | He thinks it's perhaps beings that

01:35:39.520 | could be living in a different dimension than us.

01:35:45.000 | And the reason why he says that is

01:35:46.960 | when he makes an experiment,

01:35:48.680 | when there is a sightings very often of a UFO,

01:35:52.240 | let's say I'm the UFO, you have three guys.

01:35:55.960 | One, they are looking at the UFO.

01:36:00.160 | Very often, one experiment that you can do,

01:36:04.120 | and sometime that is the case,

01:36:06.120 | you ask your two friends to walk on the side

01:36:08.280 | and there's a point that it's like a corridor.

01:36:10.920 | You see the UFO and then you stop seeing it like a corridor.

01:36:14.520 | And that's one of the reason why he's saying that

01:36:17.960 | it's perhaps dimension.

01:36:19.840 | And I found that fascinating, you know?

01:36:21.920 | - This is what, you know,

01:36:24.280 | to the discussion of consciousness and all that,

01:36:26.880 | it feels like we might be just experiencing

01:36:29.000 | a very particular slice of this universe.

01:36:31.760 | We might not be understanding what's at the higher dimensions

01:36:34.680 | or yeah, I mean, higher dimensions

01:36:37.160 | in whatever form that means.

01:36:38.680 | You know, there's all these physical theories now

01:36:41.200 | that describe a world with dimensions

01:36:44.120 | that's much higher than the four dimensions

01:36:45.920 | of the three dimensional space

01:36:47.480 | and the one dimension of time.

01:36:49.640 | So whatever the hell is going on in those other dimensions,

01:36:53.240 | it could be something.

01:36:55.600 | Unfortunately, this is the sad part.

01:36:57.920 | It might be something we can't even comprehend

01:37:00.080 | with our human brains.

01:37:01.960 | That the limitations are just,

01:37:04.040 | I mean, we're just descendants of apes.

01:37:08.240 | So like, it might not be possible to even understand.

01:37:10.720 | - Is there alien?

01:37:11.720 | Is there another dimension?

01:37:12.880 | Are they human from the future?

01:37:14.600 | Is there perhaps Chinese or another,

01:37:17.920 | you know what I mean?

01:37:18.760 | A group of people that are working

01:37:19.840 | with a technology far behind.

01:37:21.800 | But you know what, Lex, I had the chance to meet,

01:37:24.200 | you know, because of the sport I'm doing,

01:37:26.880 | I met a lot of people in military and politics sometimes

01:37:31.080 | that I ask them every time.

01:37:33.200 | I met one this week and I asked him,

01:37:39.360 | I say, "Is it true about the UFO is there?"

01:37:42.120 | And he says to me, he's like,

01:37:44.440 | even before I asked him, I say,

01:37:45.920 | "Hey, sorry, I have to ask you a question."

01:37:48.440 | I was in Los Angeles.

01:37:49.920 | And I said, "Sorry, I have to ask you a question."

01:37:52.960 | He said, "Oh, you want to ask me about UFO?"

01:37:54.520 | Right away, he knew it.

01:37:55.360 | And I say, "Yes."

01:37:56.440 | - He saw it in your eyes.

01:37:57.480 | - He said, "Yeah, there is things that flies

01:37:59.360 | that we don't know."

01:38:00.320 | But he didn't tell me, he doesn't know it.

01:38:03.080 | They don't know if it's cellular or whatever,

01:38:04.280 | but there's things apparently that are detected.

01:38:07.160 | And I know you met Fravor, you know, like-

01:38:10.120 | - Fravor is fascinating.

01:38:11.200 | - It's crazy.

01:38:12.120 | - It makes me sad that-

01:38:13.880 | - We live in a different era now that it's,

01:38:16.080 | it used to be a subject that was ridiculed

01:38:18.960 | and now it's so cool that it's, you know,

01:38:21.720 | I'm very excited to live in to that era, you know?

01:38:25.560 | - Yeah, it's really exciting,

01:38:26.520 | but still the governments are kind of behind the times

01:38:29.440 | on that aspect is they're not transparent

01:38:32.800 | and they don't communicate well.

01:38:35.000 | You know, it saddens me to think the possibility

01:38:37.280 | that, you know, like the US government might be

01:38:41.320 | in possession of something that they don't tell the world

01:38:45.280 | about because they're just scared.

01:38:47.960 | It's because they don't know what the hell it is

01:38:50.320 | and they don't want the Chinese to gain the technology

01:38:52.680 | or all those kinds of things.

01:38:54.440 | - Do you think the president of the United States,

01:38:57.000 | for example, because the president comes and go every,

01:38:59.640 | right, four or eight years,

01:39:00.960 | do you think he would know all the secret

01:39:03.080 | or it would be a guy like, for example,

01:39:05.720 | Vladimir Putin would know much of, you know what I mean?

01:39:09.680 | I don't think the president even know,

01:39:11.520 | like even knows all the secrets, right?

01:39:14.720 | - The US president, yeah.

01:39:15.720 | - I don't think so because he goes,

01:39:18.120 | they go back and forth, you know, every four years,

01:39:20.520 | you know, they have the terms, right?

01:39:22.760 | So I, you know, I wasn't sure before,

01:39:26.080 | but I think I could trust the previous United States

01:39:29.880 | president of Donald Trump that if he knew,

01:39:33.040 | he would probably tweet about it.

01:39:36.440 | So I think from the, you know, I've worked with DARPA,

01:39:41.440 | I worked with DOD at a clearance.

01:39:45.720 | And I think from the perspective,

01:39:48.480 | if you see the world as fundamentally a dangerous world,

01:39:52.720 | where secrets are important to have

01:39:55.440 | from a military perspective,

01:39:57.840 | I think it's very unsafe to tell the president

01:40:02.080 | of the United States that you have this kind of technology.

01:40:05.840 | So if you think of the world in that way,

01:40:08.440 | I hate that that's how that world is viewed

01:40:11.160 | because ultimately I think what's more powerful

01:40:13.840 | than the military secrets,

01:40:15.440 | and I hope that actually is what will happen

01:40:17.240 | in the 21st century,

01:40:19.280 | what's more powerful is inspire people,

01:40:23.080 | inspire the young Elon Musk's of the world

01:40:27.040 | to create cool new things.

01:40:29.040 | If we have technology that we've have come,

01:40:33.480 | have encountered that we don't understand,

01:40:35.840 | that should only be inspiration

01:40:38.000 | to develop that kind of stuff.

01:40:40.640 | It shouldn't be seen as military,

01:40:43.360 | as a military threat, as a secret to hold onto.

01:40:46.760 | - I think secrets,

01:40:48.000 | I hope we more and more let go of the idea

01:40:52.840 | that there are secrets that give us advantage.

01:40:55.400 | You know, like in the tech sector,

01:40:57.560 | people are more and more releasing the software,

01:41:00.800 | they're making it open source.

01:41:03.120 | Like secrets don't make sense.

01:41:05.280 | - They share the knowledge, right?

01:41:07.160 | - Share the knowledge, like being afraid

01:41:09.480 | to share the knowledge, I think, I hope is an old idea.

01:41:13.120 | - It's more, yeah, when you make it,

01:41:14.720 | things more compartmentalize, you know?

01:41:16.720 | - Yes, well, yeah, that's the other thing

01:41:19.320 | is the bureaucracy of government is like,

01:41:22.400 | people only know their own little thing

01:41:24.320 | and they don't spread the information,

01:41:25.800 | it doesn't travel well.

01:41:27.080 | I mean, there's a lot of just inefficiencies there.

01:41:29.640 | It makes me sad, it makes me sad

01:41:31.200 | 'cause the science, the engineering

01:41:35.520 | that happens in governments, like Lockheed Martin,

01:41:38.200 | developing the different airplanes

01:41:40.640 | that they use for military applications,

01:41:42.360 | that's some of the most incredible engineering ever.

01:41:44.880 | And it's secret because they're afraid to share it

01:41:48.360 | with the Russians and the Chinese and so on.

01:41:51.260 | But on that topic, I do think somebody like Vladimir Putin-

01:41:55.320 | - Would know?

01:41:56.160 | - Probably knows some stuff.

01:41:58.200 | - My God, my God.

01:42:00.240 | - I would love to know what he knows.

01:42:01.860 | But then again, you never know because even he is,

01:42:05.520 | people think of him as an exceptionally powerful person,

01:42:08.620 | but he's also just managing a bunch of tribes.

01:42:11.240 | His power is very limited.

01:42:14.000 | He's trying to hold together a bunch of greedy,

01:42:18.800 | power hungry madmen.

01:42:21.400 | - That's right.

01:42:22.240 | - Okay, and he's trying to establish a balance.

01:42:24.480 | He might not know everything.

01:42:25.960 | So I hope this changes

01:42:28.720 | 'cause I think there's nothing more exciting about-

01:42:31.840 | - I don't even know if there is a human that knows,

01:42:35.400 | you know what I mean?

01:42:36.240 | Like this idea that there's some alien civilization

01:42:40.920 | that land on the White House and say,

01:42:42.680 | "Hi, I come to meet the president."

01:42:44.160 | And I, why would they do that?

01:42:46.320 | You know what I mean?

01:42:47.920 | It's kind of absurd.

01:42:49.480 | - Well, I do think that actually,

01:42:51.800 | I mean, that's one possibility, right?

01:42:53.240 | Is LART, you know,

01:42:55.380 | if an alien civilization really wanted to contact us,

01:42:59.480 | I think everybody would know.

01:43:01.400 | So I think what we're,

01:43:03.200 | if there's any kind of interaction between humans and aliens,

01:43:08.200 | I think most likely what we're interacting with

01:43:10.840 | is a crappy like probe drone thing

01:43:15.220 | that kind of just like,

01:43:16.400 | like it's like this-

01:43:17.240 | - Wah, wah.

01:43:18.080 | - Yeah, more, yeah.

01:43:19.520 | It's this dumb thing, you know,

01:43:21.480 | we're not interacting with the aliens.

01:43:22.960 | I think just like for us,

01:43:26.720 | I think humans aren't,

01:43:28.480 | when we venture out into space,

01:43:32.000 | the first thing that's going to meet aliens is our robots.

01:43:35.260 | It's not us humans.

01:43:36.700 | 'Cause we keep sending robots out.

01:43:38.720 | So they're going to like,

01:43:40.600 | they're going to make decisions about humans

01:43:42.960 | by looking at the robots.

01:43:44.240 | (laughs)

01:43:45.160 | - I say the famous grays.

01:43:47.440 | - The grays.

01:43:48.260 | - Maybe they are robots.

01:43:49.700 | Maybe it's all BS too, you know?

01:43:51.280 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:43:52.100 | So I don't know,

01:43:53.960 | I don't know what that interaction actually would look like

01:43:57.400 | if aliens really wanted to reach out, really communicate.

01:44:00.080 | And I don't know if we're able

01:44:01.160 | to actually communicate with them.

01:44:02.520 | That's one of the sad things.

01:44:03.800 | We might not be able to,

01:44:06.240 | we might, the aliens might already be here

01:44:09.080 | and we might just not even know how to see them

01:44:13.880 | or know how to communicate with them.

01:44:15.840 | - There's so much misinformation

01:44:19.000 | and sometimes there is people that are very credible

01:44:22.480 | that made crazy claims, you know?

01:44:27.120 | Like you don't know what to believe, you know?

01:44:29.000 | Like Paul Elyard,

01:44:30.360 | the minister of defense of Canada said like some,

01:44:35.840 | that there is many alien rays that ever,

01:44:37.720 | that's what he said, research it.

01:44:39.600 | And that scientist from, I think Israel recently

01:44:44.640 | have said something about Trump.

01:44:46.600 | He was keeping secret or Medvedev, you're from Russia.

01:44:50.320 | Medvedev have been caught in a,

01:44:52.000 | like during a break in between interviews

01:44:54.600 | to talks about like, oh, it's like men in black,

01:44:56.760 | so to speak.

01:44:57.600 | I don't know, he didn't look like he was joking,

01:44:59.440 | but I don't know if he was saying the truth.

01:45:01.120 | - I didn't know about this.

01:45:01.960 | That's interesting.

01:45:02.800 | - Yeah, you can check on YouTube.

01:45:03.620 | It's, it went viral.

01:45:05.980 | Yeah, there's a lot of things like that sometime.

01:45:07.740 | I'm like, or Bob Lazar, I'm like,

01:45:11.420 | imagine if it's true, man.

01:45:13.500 | - Yeah.

01:45:14.540 | - Imagine if we're like a fish in the water,

01:45:17.300 | we live in our own world

01:45:19.060 | and sometime there's a fisherman that grabbed the fish,

01:45:22.740 | take him out of the water and threw it back in the water

01:45:25.660 | and the fish goes back to the other fish,

01:45:27.020 | it's like, hey, there's someone

01:45:29.700 | that take me out of the water.

01:45:31.020 | Then I've seen things that I did not like,

01:45:33.260 | imagine if it's true.

01:45:34.740 | Like, and one other thing, like,

01:45:39.260 | I wanted to ask you because you were consciousness,

01:45:42.300 | how about dreams?

01:45:43.380 | What is a dream?

01:45:44.620 | - Yeah, well, I more and more,

01:45:46.620 | I don't know if you're paying attention to this.

01:45:48.220 | There's now, it's become more acceptable

01:45:50.460 | in the scientific community

01:45:51.620 | to do large scale studies of psychedelics, for example.

01:45:54.260 | And there's a lot of connection

01:45:55.380 | between psychedelics and dreams.

01:45:57.700 | There's very similar states.

01:45:58.980 | There's a lot our mind does

01:46:01.620 | when it detaches itself from reality,

01:46:03.820 | that it can just explore a lot of different ideas.

01:46:06.260 | It's very possible that dreams is you're traveling somewhere

01:46:09.380 | and the same thing with psychedelics,

01:46:10.780 | you're traveling somewhere.

01:46:12.460 | In a different, not traveling to physical space,

01:46:15.540 | it's the other dimensions that we were talking about.

01:46:17.540 | You're traveling some other,

01:46:19.700 | through some other dimension to meet some other creature.

01:46:22.220 | People talk with DMT that they meet some elves.

01:46:24.940 | I've never done, I'd like to.

01:46:27.220 | I don't know if there's a safe, legal way to do it,

01:46:30.100 | but they all talk about meeting elves

01:46:33.620 | and creatures like entities.

01:46:36.900 | And like, who are they?

01:46:39.260 | What's, what is this?

01:46:41.940 | - Is it because they're high or it's because-

01:46:44.500 | - They're actually meeting something

01:46:45.860 | and maybe there's no difference.

01:46:47.340 | I mean, that, who knows exactly.

01:46:49.740 | And that's takes us right back to us

01:46:51.140 | not being able to really understand how our mind works.

01:46:55.140 | You know, I work in artificial intelligence.

01:46:58.020 | It's clear that we understand so little about intelligence,

01:47:01.620 | some basic things about intelligence.

01:47:04.300 | Just at the very sort of basic first principles level,

01:47:09.300 | we don't understand what it means to reason, to think,

01:47:14.660 | to assimilate pieces of knowledge together

01:47:18.580 | from the basics to the complex.

01:47:21.660 | We don't understand it.

01:47:22.500 | We don't understand how the human mind does it.

01:47:25.120 | We don't understand how the human mind

01:47:26.500 | is able to take incredible waterfall of information

01:47:30.820 | and filter cleanly into just like clean.

01:47:34.340 | You only see the things that are important

01:47:36.220 | and are able to stitch them together

01:47:37.860 | and be able to reason about the world.

01:47:40.140 | And at the same time have moments of like genius,

01:47:43.420 | of creativity, like what is that?

01:47:46.100 | That also, you know, people, writers talk about that,

01:47:49.300 | that they're, you know,

01:47:50.420 | they're almost like communicating with a muse.

01:47:52.140 | Like where do ideas come from?

01:47:53.660 | - Yeah.

01:47:54.500 | - This is the Joe Rogan philosophy.

01:47:55.660 | - But I do know that past civilization

01:47:58.180 | where a lot of them were based on shamanism.

01:48:01.700 | And you know what?

01:48:02.660 | I think it's sad is if someone drink alcohol

01:48:07.660 | and when he's drunk, he's going to commit like murders

01:48:12.580 | or we're gonna blame the person, right?

01:48:14.860 | We're gonna say that's his fault.

01:48:16.260 | It's not the fault of alcohol.

01:48:18.300 | However, if someone does psychedelic

01:48:20.460 | or any things that is illegal and do something crazy,

01:48:24.340 | now we're gonna put the fault on psychedelic.

01:48:28.660 | You know what I mean?

01:48:29.500 | And perhaps the person itself is the reason why,

01:48:34.500 | you know, he's been doing these things.

01:48:36.060 | You know what I mean?

01:48:37.180 | So yeah, it's fascinating how like society,

01:48:40.940 | you know, like in Canada, they just legalize marijuana.

01:48:44.540 | - Oh yeah?

01:48:45.380 | - Yeah, marijuana is legal.

01:48:47.220 | But before that, before they did it,

01:48:49.460 | like if you talk, for example, to my dad,

01:48:51.740 | he's against it like because the whole mentality

01:48:54.460 | is like, it's drug, it's bad.

01:48:56.820 | But drinking a glass, you know, drinking a beer, it's fine.

01:48:59.500 | I mean, what is, you know what I mean?

01:49:02.460 | What is good?

01:49:03.460 | What is bad?

01:49:04.300 | And I guess eating chocolate could be bad as well

01:49:08.100 | for your health or like, I mean,

01:49:09.420 | I'm going to the extreme now, but what is good?

01:49:12.500 | What is bad?

01:49:13.340 | If you use it for recreation,

01:49:15.140 | you use it for an experience to learn about yourself.

01:49:19.580 | It's like, it's the line is very tiny.

01:49:23.140 | You know, there's some countries that drugs are all legal,

01:49:26.820 | you know what I mean?

01:49:27.660 | And I don't know the stats,

01:49:30.100 | but I would be interesting to know

01:49:31.980 | if they have more crimes there than other countries

01:49:36.980 | where it's more strict.

01:49:38.460 | I would be interesting to know about that.

01:49:41.180 | It's fascinating, you know?

01:49:42.860 | - Yeah, and I mean, we humans kind of just come up

01:49:45.300 | with the arbitrary lines of what's good, what's bad,

01:49:48.180 | that applies with drugs, that applies with anything,

01:49:51.500 | that applies with animals, for example.

01:49:53.700 | We talked about carnivore diet.

01:49:56.020 | Maybe the time we live in now will be remembered

01:49:58.580 | for the cruelty to animals, for example.

01:50:02.660 | And I believe this, the 21st century will be remembered

01:50:07.660 | for our cruelties to robots.

01:50:10.080 | That eventually there'll be a civil rights movement

01:50:15.660 | for robots, the ones who choose to be conscious,

01:50:19.860 | the ones who have consciousness will say,

01:50:22.420 | "We deserve rights too.

01:50:24.020 | We deserve to be treated with respect too."

01:50:27.700 | - How about the people we put in jail?

01:50:30.580 | - People put in jail?

01:50:31.980 | - I think in the future we'll look back

01:50:34.380 | and we'll think of ourself being stupid

01:50:37.660 | to put people in jail instead of trying to fix the problem

01:50:45.260 | at the base.

01:50:46.340 | Of course now, I guess it's our ignorance

01:50:49.220 | that made it in a way that we cannot sometimes understand

01:50:52.660 | what makes sometimes a psychopath a psychopath

01:50:55.580 | or a murderer a murderer.

01:50:57.100 | But if we can pinpoint the problem and take care of it

01:51:01.520 | before, you know what I mean?

01:51:03.660 | Or made it in a way that we can reestablish that person

01:51:07.860 | in the society, who knows what was the future is old.

01:51:12.580 | It's interesting, we're living in an interesting time.

01:51:15.740 | - You mentioned your father.

01:51:17.540 | What have you learned from your dad?

01:51:20.340 | You mentioned he was an important part of your childhood.

01:51:22.620 | - My dad is amazing.

01:51:25.180 | I grew up, we didn't have a lot of money,

01:51:26.900 | but it doesn't mean if I'm born in a nice country

01:51:29.620 | that always nice thing happen.

01:51:31.300 | My dad for me is a big role model

01:51:36.140 | because I see him through my life

01:51:39.820 | facing a lot of adversity.

01:51:42.140 | You know, he stopped drinking when I was a teenager.

01:51:45.580 | He was an alcoholic and I seen him struggle through that.

01:51:50.180 | You know, and it was very, very hard.

01:51:52.300 | And I've seen him work like crazy hours,

01:51:57.300 | like come leave in the morning, come home at night,

01:52:04.020 | burned out because of work through almost all his life.

01:52:08.980 | To the point that it became a slave of the system.

01:52:13.980 | It became an habit and a normal way of living.

01:52:17.860 | And it made me realize that I've learned a lot

01:52:21.500 | through my father.

01:52:23.260 | He taught me perseverance, hard work.

01:52:25.980 | You know, when you face adversity,

01:52:28.020 | you know, to never give up until you achieve it.

01:52:30.420 | But also it taught me a lesson that,

01:52:34.820 | in a way that I don't want to be like him,

01:52:38.380 | even if he is happy,

01:52:40.060 | it's because I realized I don't think he knows anything else.

01:52:44.420 | Like he works through all his life

01:52:46.500 | and I don't want to live to work.

01:52:50.340 | I want to work for, you know what I mean?

01:52:52.300 | I want to decide when I work.

01:52:53.780 | You know, I feel like he lived to work

01:52:57.780 | instead of working for a living.

01:53:00.020 | And perhaps it's because he did not have choice.

01:53:03.900 | He was the older of his family.

01:53:06.060 | They were nine kid.

01:53:07.540 | His dad, my grandfather died when he was young.

01:53:10.180 | So he had to become the father of the family

01:53:13.100 | and work to put money on the table.

01:53:16.420 | So perhaps that's what made him that way.

01:53:19.820 | And he became like, like an habit for him.

01:53:23.100 | My dad taught me, when I was at school,

01:53:27.060 | I was bullied at school.

01:53:29.140 | He's the first one who initiate me to martial art.

01:53:32.100 | He taught me karate.

01:53:33.420 | My dad was a black belt in Kyokushin karate as well.

01:53:36.980 | But because he was working too much,

01:53:39.540 | he didn't have time to teach me.

01:53:41.380 | And I needed self-defense in order to defend myself.

01:53:44.500 | I have a winning, a great career in mixed martial art,

01:53:48.940 | but in the schoolyard.

01:53:50.740 | - That's so good.

01:53:52.460 | Mixed record.

01:53:53.580 | - My record is not very good.

01:53:56.260 | When you're a kid and you're about seven, eight years old,

01:54:03.260 | and you're facing bullies that are

01:54:06.620 | two to three years older than yourself,

01:54:12.140 | it's not the same thing than when you're 25

01:54:14.340 | and the guy is 28.

01:54:15.380 | So there was a big discrepancy in terms of maturity.

01:54:19.420 | So my dad taught me, introduced me to karate.

01:54:26.060 | Then he didn't have time to teach me.

01:54:28.980 | Then he put me in a school with a teacher.

01:54:33.980 | It was Jean Couture.

01:54:36.140 | And I grew up with a lot of anger.

01:54:39.260 | And there were two person that was afraid growing up.

01:54:45.100 | It was my dad.

01:54:46.300 | My dad was very severe, very strict with me.

01:54:49.140 | And I'm glad he was because I could have become very bad.

01:54:53.740 | I could have become chosen on a different path.

01:54:56.980 | People see me as a nice guy

01:54:58.260 | and I am a nice guy.

01:55:00.020 | I try to be a good role model,

01:55:01.860 | but I could easily have turned towards a wrong path.

01:55:06.380 | - There's darkness somewhere in there.

01:55:07.860 | - Yes, there are a lot.

01:55:09.220 | And a lot of my friends have choose that path.

01:55:11.460 | And unfortunately, they are not with me today.

01:55:16.460 | Even if I'm from Canada

01:55:20.860 | and Canada seems like the nicest country in the world.

01:55:24.100 | Like I said, even if you live in a nice country,

01:55:26.540 | not always nice thing.

01:55:27.500 | It depends of the situation.

01:55:29.380 | But that's what my dad taught me.

01:55:32.020 | And he gave me that

01:55:34.140 | because I'm very good at learning by observing people.

01:55:40.580 | And by observing him,

01:55:41.660 | I see the struggle he had with alcoholism

01:55:44.980 | and what he did, the pain sometimes that he inflict

01:55:48.260 | to us, to my family.

01:55:50.660 | But how he turn,

01:55:54.780 | he did that 180 degree.

01:55:57.260 | And I really admire that.

01:55:59.380 | And I know it was very, very hard for him and he did it.

01:56:02.740 | And for me, that's a great role model for me.

01:56:07.140 | - So with your dad being an engine of basically hard work

01:56:11.460 | and you finding a balance

01:56:13.500 | of being able to work your ass off,

01:56:15.660 | but also to be able to enjoy a piece of chocolate,

01:56:18.980 | what is a perfect day in the life of George St. Pierre

01:56:23.060 | look like?

01:56:24.300 | So like, if you were to go through a day

01:56:27.340 | that's very productive,

01:56:28.540 | but also one that makes you sit back and enjoy

01:56:31.460 | and say that was a good day,

01:56:33.300 | what's that look like?

01:56:34.740 | What are we talking about?

01:56:35.900 | When do you wake up?

01:56:36.740 | What do you eat?

01:56:37.620 | What do you do?

01:56:39.380 | - It changed over the years.

01:56:41.060 | When I was younger, I have a good day.

01:56:42.940 | It was like a good training session

01:56:44.620 | or achieving good thing in my training.

01:56:48.140 | And that's why I was very good at it

01:56:49.740 | because when I was obsessed,

01:56:52.900 | I think to be good at something,

01:56:54.660 | you need to become obsessed.

01:56:56.260 | And to me, performing in my training was everything.

01:57:00.500 | Like when I had a bad training session,

01:57:03.980 | I didn't tell my training partner,

01:57:05.580 | I was acting like because of my ego,

01:57:08.300 | I didn't tell nobody.

01:57:10.340 | I was like, "Hey, hey, hey."

01:57:11.260 | Then I go in the locker room, I'm like, "Fuck, man."

01:57:14.340 | Then I'm playing the training in my mind,

01:57:19.340 | and I'm saying, "Okay, I should have done this,

01:57:21.420 | I should have done that."

01:57:22.260 | And it haunt me.

01:57:23.580 | It haunt me, man.

01:57:24.980 | It's a training and it haunt me

01:57:26.980 | until the next training session

01:57:29.300 | when I can redeem myself.

01:57:31.700 | That's how it is.

01:57:33.500 | When we used to train all together back in the day,

01:57:38.500 | in Canada, we had David Loiseau,

01:57:42.220 | we had Patrick Côté,

01:57:44.420 | we had Dennis Kang,

01:57:46.380 | Steve Vigneault, Jonathan Goulet.

01:57:49.500 | It was all like the best guy in Canada

01:57:52.140 | that were training with each other.

01:57:53.660 | Before, we were training in different gyms,

01:57:56.340 | but once a week, I made it a note,

01:57:59.620 | I contact everybody that we all joined force

01:58:02.820 | and we exchange ideas and we train with each other.

01:58:06.220 | So I would say friendly competition.

01:58:09.180 | It was not malicious, but it was hard training.

01:58:13.060 | Our goal was to improve, but it wasn't very competitive.

01:58:17.780 | And when that day you used to get out of the training session

01:58:21.700 | with a bad performance, for me,

01:58:23.860 | it used to haunt me until the following week

01:58:27.060 | when I could give it back and perform better

01:58:30.300 | with the guy that I had the most trouble with.

01:58:33.060 | That's how it was.

01:58:34.420 | And that's how you get better.

01:58:35.980 | You know, but it was not a training

01:58:38.860 | where we were trying to do malicious thing to one another.

01:58:43.260 | You know what I mean?

01:58:44.940 | It need to be playful,

01:58:46.340 | but playful, but competitive.

01:58:49.260 | That when I had a good training session

01:58:50.540 | because a sparring was on a Friday,

01:58:53.100 | I had the best weekend in the world.

01:58:54.420 | I was going out with my friend, drinking and partying

01:58:57.220 | and have fun.

01:58:58.060 | That was my ideal day back in the day.

01:59:03.060 | Today has changed.

01:59:06.980 | You know, my life has changed.

01:59:09.540 | You know, like I am not the same person I used to be

01:59:15.740 | when I went on my knees and begged the UFC for title shot.

01:59:19.940 | You know what I mean?

01:59:20.780 | I'm wealthy, I'm healthy, most importantly.

01:59:25.780 | That's the most important thing.

01:59:27.980 | And as, man, I'm gonna tell you the truth,

01:59:31.420 | as good as my career was, man, my private life, man,

01:59:36.060 | is a million time better, man.

01:59:39.780 | I, and people ask me sometimes,

01:59:41.780 | they always wonder, they try to ask me,

01:59:45.180 | and it's normal, a lot of people is curious

01:59:47.220 | and the reporter, and in the sport of mixed martial art,

01:59:52.220 | we say we play basketball, we play soccer,

01:59:56.940 | but you don't play fighting.

01:59:58.780 | So when you expose your private life,

02:00:01.180 | we've seen that happen in the fight

02:00:03.460 | with sometimes Conor McGregor and Khabib.

02:00:05.620 | Your competitor knows that he cannot get to you,

02:00:09.540 | so what he will do,

02:00:10.380 | he will try to get to someone that you love.

02:00:13.620 | So me, I never expose my private life.

02:00:16.580 | I never post Instagram of my family or my stuff.

02:00:20.180 | That's the reason why,

02:00:22.380 | because I'm in a business of fighting,

02:00:25.340 | and people know that they cannot get to me.

02:00:28.620 | And I believe, because I was bullied when I was young,

02:00:34.620 | I didn't realize that when I was young,

02:00:38.900 | but it helps me deal with the mental warfare

02:00:42.980 | that I had to face later on in my life in mixed martial art,

02:00:46.020 | because it's a very egotistic sport,

02:00:48.420 | and there's a lot of intimidation.

02:00:52.620 | And I was used to, I've been used to this thing

02:00:56.540 | when I was young, so it does not get to me.

02:00:59.660 | However, the good way to get to me,

02:01:01.940 | go try to get to someone I love.

02:01:07.380 | Now, man, I'm gonna go crazy, you know what I mean?

02:01:11.180 | And I'm aware of that.

02:01:12.180 | So in order to protect myself, I always,

02:01:15.660 | because I'm aware I'm a public person,

02:01:17.860 | so I try to always keep my surrounding in the private.

02:01:22.700 | - Yeah, one of the ways that your friend of mine, Joe Rogan,

02:01:28.780 | has been an inspiration,

02:01:31.180 | that he's got an incredible family,

02:01:33.900 | and he, for the most part, it started to change recently.

02:01:36.260 | Actually, it's kind of interesting,

02:01:37.180 | but for the most part, throughout his life,

02:01:38.780 | he kept it pretty secret.

02:01:40.900 | Doesn't talk about it in his, he's a comedian.

02:01:43.020 | Comedians talk about everything.

02:01:44.220 | He doesn't really talk about it.

02:01:46.260 | And there's something to that.

02:01:48.180 | It preserves the magic of the silence of the private life.

02:01:51.940 | - And I think it can affect the development of the kid

02:01:56.820 | if the kid grow up being, oh, he's the son of that guy

02:02:01.820 | instead of being his own person, you know what I mean?

02:02:05.700 | So for me, it's very important.

02:02:08.500 | Like, my parents are older, it's fine,

02:02:11.620 | but it taught me a big lesson.

02:02:13.620 | When I'm with my friend at the dinner or anything,

02:02:15.940 | I talk with personal, we share a thing,

02:02:18.340 | but when I'm talking, I'm aware of the audience

02:02:21.660 | who I'm in front.

02:02:23.420 | - Yeah, but oftentimes, those people are just incredible.

02:02:26.300 | It kind of makes me sad that, you know,

02:02:30.060 | there's a lot of people that love you, right?

02:02:31.580 | And there are a lot of really incredible people,

02:02:33.700 | and you'll never get to really know their story.

02:02:36.620 | I mean, I don't know.

02:02:37.460 | For me, it makes me sad.

02:02:38.580 | You see them like at airports and stuff.

02:02:40.220 | People will tell me they listen to this podcast

02:02:42.300 | or something like that.

02:02:43.900 | And I could tell they're incredible people.

02:02:46.140 | And it makes me, it's like a little goodbye

02:02:48.620 | of a possible friend, I don't know.

02:02:50.860 | It makes me sad.

02:02:51.980 | - You're right.

02:02:52.820 | - It makes me, it's lonely.

02:02:55.180 | It's almost like celebrity is a lonely thing.

02:02:57.900 | So the higher the celebrity,

02:02:59.220 | the more lonely you become in some kind of way.

02:03:02.460 | But of course, you have that little gem of a private life

02:03:05.500 | where you can.

02:03:06.380 | - Personally, I believe every relationship,

02:03:08.700 | I don't like to use this term,

02:03:12.460 | but it's always a give and take relationship, you know?

02:03:17.220 | Like you can gain something and the person,

02:03:19.780 | like it could be something like not materialistic,

02:03:23.740 | like something always a good, confident,

02:03:26.220 | like someone that can give me good advice.

02:03:28.540 | Or it's a word I would say like extensional.

02:03:32.580 | Like if a pilot has a co-pilot,

02:03:35.260 | the co-pilot has an extensional relationship with him.

02:03:38.860 | You know, so he knows if he gets sick or he faint,

02:03:41.500 | he's there to make sure, you know, he's there to help.

02:03:45.300 | And I think in every relation, it's about compatibility,

02:03:48.380 | but it's about extensionality, right?

02:03:50.540 | In a way that if that person is extensional,

02:03:54.740 | and sometimes we talk about love, you know,

02:03:57.020 | like sometimes I think is it a BS word or not?

02:04:01.220 | Because I myself, sometimes look at,

02:04:04.140 | I look at myself in the mirror,

02:04:06.180 | and when I do stupid thing,

02:04:09.100 | sometimes I love myself a lot,

02:04:10.740 | and sometimes I don't, you know what I mean?

02:04:13.500 | Because I'm angry at myself, I've done stupid thing.

02:04:17.260 | So that means sometimes love could be fluctuating,

02:04:20.340 | you know what I mean?

02:04:21.420 | How about in relationship?

02:04:22.540 | Sometimes people, they say, oh, they love each other,

02:04:25.140 | but then when they divorce, they go,

02:04:27.100 | oh, I want the house and the dog and the kids stay with me.

02:04:30.180 | And you know what I mean?

02:04:31.980 | If you love, by definition, if you really love someone,

02:04:36.260 | and let's say you're an old man and you love a woman

02:04:40.140 | and she decide to leave you for a younger man,

02:04:42.540 | if you really love her,

02:04:43.940 | you're gonna help her pack and leave.

02:04:47.460 | But in our society, sometimes we want to hone something.

02:04:51.700 | - To me, love includes the missing somebody,

02:04:55.220 | the losing somebody, the anger at somebody.

02:04:57.540 | It's all the passion, feelings towards somebody.

02:05:00.260 | That's all love.

02:05:01.140 | Like, you know, it's all part of the thing.

02:05:03.340 | It's the ups and downs.

02:05:04.820 | The sad thing is when the feelings towards a person,

02:05:09.580 | the ups and downs go away, the forgetting.

02:05:12.380 | That's the opposite of love.

02:05:14.100 | So the opposite of love isn't hate.

02:05:16.100 | To me, the opposite of love is forgetting.

02:05:18.140 | And that's a much bigger,

02:05:21.580 | the depth of human connection, that's how I see love.

02:05:24.700 | - Sometimes I try to stay positive

02:05:26.460 | and I've been asked how I try to,

02:05:30.180 | because I have the image of someone who's positive,

02:05:33.100 | but I go through my own demon as well sometimes.

02:05:36.100 | However, we talk about love.

02:05:39.260 | When I was young, you know,

02:05:42.780 | I didn't love who I was at first.

02:05:47.220 | That's how I learned to kind of love myself.

02:05:50.180 | When I was going through bullying,

02:05:55.580 | I believe I was bullied because I didn't love myself,

02:05:58.660 | because I project a very bad image

02:06:01.460 | of what I think of myself.

02:06:03.980 | I was a kid that lacked a lot of confidence.

02:06:05.980 | I was looking down when I was walking.

02:06:08.380 | I shrugged my shoulder.

02:06:10.180 | When someone was talking to me, I was avoiding eye contact.

02:06:14.060 | So I was a very easy target for bullies.

02:06:17.300 | And I think bullies are like a predatory animal in nature.

02:06:22.300 | They will hunt the easier prey.

02:06:25.460 | They don't go, the lion don't go for the alpha bull.

02:06:29.980 | They go for the one who's hold or who's sick,

02:06:32.340 | the weakest one.

02:06:33.620 | And bullies are the same in society, I believe.

02:06:36.540 | And I didn't like to be bullied, of course,

02:06:39.700 | but I didn't like the person that I was.

02:06:42.780 | But I found out through martial art, the respect.

02:06:47.700 | And my coach was extraordinary to me.

02:06:52.980 | He taught me discipline and self-strength.

02:06:56.420 | And I found out that I needed to,

02:06:58.780 | in order to love myself, I needed to change myself.

02:07:01.820 | Because when I looked at myself in the mirror,

02:07:04.980 | I didn't like what I saw.

02:07:06.980 | So I decided to become like someone that I would love.

02:07:11.980 | So I tried to look people straight up

02:07:16.940 | and trying to showcase a more confident image.

02:07:22.940 | And it was hard in the beginning

02:07:25.580 | because I didn't really believe in it,

02:07:27.180 | but I fake it until kind of I make it.

02:07:31.660 | So when I was walking at school,

02:07:34.700 | more and more I was learning how to become more confident.

02:07:37.700 | And I was like taking charge.

02:07:39.900 | When the teacher was asking question,

02:07:41.900 | at first I was never answering.

02:07:43.660 | It was like this, waiting always to be the last.

02:07:45.860 | Then I was, hey, I know what the answer,

02:07:48.460 | this is the answer.

02:07:49.700 | I got out of my comfort zone, so to speak.

02:07:53.620 | And I wish I would tell you that I got out of bullying

02:07:58.100 | because a Hollywood story,

02:08:01.300 | I use martial art to beat up all the bullies,

02:08:04.020 | but it's not how it happened to me.

02:08:05.980 | It happened because I changed myself from the inside out.

02:08:09.580 | And I learn how to,

02:08:13.980 | because I didn't love myself in the beginning,

02:08:16.420 | I learn how to become like someone that I have loved.

02:08:21.140 | And even now, like I'm by no mean perfect.

02:08:24.020 | I do a lot of stupid thing,

02:08:25.980 | but I learn as a person.

02:08:29.220 | And even I do as something stupid,

02:08:31.140 | I'm like, shoot, I did something stupid.

02:08:33.300 | At least I can apologize to the person if I realize.

02:08:36.940 | And then I know that I'm not the person I was in the past.

02:08:41.940 | I'm the person that I am right now.

02:08:45.220 | So I can learn and become that image

02:08:48.660 | of the person that I love.

02:08:49.900 | So in a way, the reason I'm trying to be positive

02:08:53.340 | and I'm able to stay positive sometime in life

02:08:56.140 | is because I'm always trying to be like that person

02:09:02.060 | that I love.

02:09:03.140 | And I think if you don't look yourself in the mirror

02:09:05.260 | and don't love yourself

02:09:07.060 | or don't see any positive future for yourself,

02:09:10.180 | how can you change your environment

02:09:11.580 | if you cannot change yourself?

02:09:13.260 | You know what I mean?

02:09:14.300 | You will never be happy if you're not happy

02:09:16.820 | when you look at yourself in the mirror.

02:09:18.900 | So change yourself first, then change your...

02:09:21.220 | You know, it's not the environment

02:09:22.420 | that gonna change for yourself.

02:09:24.100 | You have to go from the inside out.

02:09:26.260 | This I learned through martial art.

02:09:30.780 | I had a coach, he was incredible.

02:09:33.700 | He used to drill these ideas in my head

02:09:36.260 | and give me confidence, you know, like this,

02:09:39.140 | telling me all these beautiful things about myself

02:09:43.100 | and how I...

02:09:44.180 | He's dead now, unfortunately, peace to him,

02:09:46.580 | but he was incredible, incredible.

02:09:49.340 | He was very, very strict.

02:09:50.500 | I was afraid of him.

02:09:51.420 | I was afraid of my dad and afraid of him.

02:09:53.580 | He couldn't teach nowadays like he used to teach me

02:09:56.700 | because he would be probably in jail, you know?

02:09:59.540 | But I'm glad he did it because for the time being,

02:10:02.380 | that's what I needed.

02:10:03.740 | And I would never have had that career

02:10:07.340 | I had in mixed martial art without this

02:10:10.540 | because I would never have got out of my comfort zone.

02:10:13.820 | Would have been impossible.

02:10:15.260 | And in order to improve in life,

02:10:17.500 | you need to get out of your comfort zone.

02:10:19.340 | It's hard, it's very hard to do.

02:10:21.980 | - And strive to be the person that you can love.

02:10:24.580 | As beautifully put, George.

02:10:28.060 | If you were to give advice to a young person today

02:10:30.220 | about life, what would you tell them?

02:10:32.700 | - If he takes life with the same,

02:10:39.380 | with the same mentality that I do,

02:10:43.740 | if he has the same taste of things that I have,

02:10:48.740 | I would tell him, you know, for sport,

02:10:54.020 | for life in general, I would say,

02:10:56.700 | if you will have a dream, you know, like,

02:11:01.620 | make everything in your power and work very hard,

02:11:08.460 | you know, never take no for an answer

02:11:11.540 | and go through hell in order to achieve it.

02:11:15.380 | Don't work hard only, but work smart.

02:11:21.940 | That's I think the problems with a lot of people.

02:11:25.860 | They work hard, they can work hard,

02:11:27.460 | they burn themselves, but they don't work smart.

02:11:30.140 | Whether it is in science, in business,

02:11:34.340 | they make bad choices or they're badly informed.

02:11:38.540 | In sport, how many guys I've seen

02:11:41.420 | ruin their career in the gyms?

02:11:43.900 | They spar so hard, they ruin themselves in the gyms.

02:11:47.620 | They leave their career in the gyms.

02:11:49.420 | What I would say to, for example,

02:11:52.340 | because my field of expertise,

02:11:54.180 | it's in sport of mixed martial art.

02:11:56.340 | I would say to a young kid,

02:12:02.860 | make your training playful.

02:12:05.700 | You know, when you get ready for competition,

02:12:09.500 | you need to try to recreate those element

02:12:13.940 | that makes you go outside of your comfort zone.

02:12:17.860 | But in everyday's life in general,

02:12:21.220 | make your training playful.

02:12:23.060 | Don't make it like a hardcore competition

02:12:26.220 | about who's winning, who's losing.

02:12:28.420 | Make it playful.

02:12:29.780 | So it will increase your,

02:12:33.220 | because you will not be afraid of getting hurt or losing.

02:12:38.220 | You will be tempted to try more things

02:12:43.620 | and it will make you become more creative.

02:12:47.540 | - You know, that brings up another question about learning.

02:12:53.100 | So you value knowledge and you're exceptional

02:12:57.180 | at basically being very good at learning

02:13:00.700 | and figuring stuff out,

02:13:01.820 | new things or going deeper on the things you already know.

02:13:05.420 | So what advice would you have for how to learn effectively?

02:13:10.180 | How, you know, you say work smart.

02:13:13.300 | How do you figure this game out?

02:13:16.140 | - I believe the best way to learn

02:13:19.220 | is learning from other people's mistake.

02:13:21.820 | (both laughing)

02:13:24.780 | However, I'm not perfect

02:13:27.860 | and I've learned from my mistakes as well.

02:13:30.420 | And sometimes it took me a few mistake

02:13:35.340 | to learn the same thing.

02:13:37.860 | But especially in the sport of mixed martial art,

02:13:40.460 | because we're talking about the failure

02:13:44.620 | could have very serious outcome

02:13:47.540 | on someone's life and wellbeing.

02:13:51.500 | So it's crucial to trying to learn

02:13:54.580 | from other people mistakes.

02:13:56.220 | - Do you study others?

02:13:57.660 | - Yes, every fight I've studied my opponent

02:14:02.140 | and I've studied myself as well to know

02:14:04.700 | how my strength mix versus my opponent weaknesses.

02:14:12.580 | And how can I make the fight go in a way

02:14:17.260 | that I'm taking my opponent outside of his comfort zone.

02:14:21.580 | Very often people are good at studying their opponent

02:14:25.020 | but they're not good at looking at themselves in the mirror

02:14:27.100 | and knowing what they should do

02:14:28.500 | in order to maximize their odds of success, right?

02:14:32.940 | That's why I always thought for me,

02:14:37.740 | it was important to not be the best at one thing,

02:14:42.020 | but be very good at everything.

02:14:46.940 | That's why I always seek advices

02:14:51.140 | from the best in every discipline.

02:14:53.860 | Like I wrestle with the best wrestler I could be with.

02:14:58.820 | I box with the best boxers.

02:15:00.540 | I practice karate with the best karate fighters.

02:15:04.900 | Same thing in Jiu Jitsu.

02:15:05.900 | I train Jiu Jitsu with the best Jiu Jitsu guys.

02:15:09.300 | However, when I mix everything and mixed martial art,

02:15:16.580 | because I'm very competent in every areas.

02:15:19.180 | So when I'm fighting someone,

02:15:20.980 | I'm very good at identifying where is the less competent.

02:15:26.900 | And I know for a fact that because I'm competent everywhere

02:15:30.780 | if I can bring the fight

02:15:33.100 | where he's outside of his comfort zone,

02:15:35.220 | it increased my odds of winning.

02:15:36.820 | There is no certainty.

02:15:38.460 | It's all about odds, I believe.

02:15:40.500 | Because there is always X factor that you do not control.

02:15:43.700 | - Yeah, it's fascinating to see you actually

02:15:45.180 | 'cause you've been a student of movement.

02:15:47.220 | You've been exploring all kinds,

02:15:51.060 | I mean, gymnastics, all that kind of stuff.

02:15:52.780 | There's something reminiscent to,

02:15:54.620 | like Conor McGregor is one other martial artist

02:15:59.060 | that's kind of explored movement,

02:16:00.660 | been a scholar of movement.

02:16:02.020 | At least from my perspective,

02:16:04.500 | it's very sort of Bruce Lee-like.

02:16:07.140 | It's almost making a study of the human body

02:16:10.500 | and all the possible things you can do.

02:16:12.380 | Is there a philosophy behind that that you have?

02:16:15.780 | - You talk about Bruce Lee, man.

02:16:17.300 | You said it best.

02:16:18.980 | He changes my life too.

02:16:23.620 | He was ahead of his time.

02:16:25.420 | - Yeah, incredible.

02:16:26.580 | - A lot of people talk to me and they ask me,

02:16:28.100 | "Hey, is Bruce Lee, would have been able to fight in UFC?"

02:16:31.020 | I, no.

02:16:32.980 | Look, I don't think so.

02:16:35.020 | I don't know.

02:16:36.340 | I think he was a martial artist.

02:16:38.780 | He could have defend himself,

02:16:39.900 | but to say that he could have compete

02:16:42.300 | amongst the elite of the elite fighter,

02:16:45.300 | perhaps in his time,

02:16:46.340 | but for sure if you put him in UFC right now,

02:16:49.100 | the sport has improved incredibly since then.

02:16:55.060 | But in terms of philosophy, yeah, Bruce Lee was amazing.

02:17:00.060 | One thing that just to prove that he was ahead of his time,

02:17:02.820 | he was talking about using your longest weapon

02:17:05.540 | against your opponent nearest point.

02:17:08.020 | And we see that kick that it got popularized by John Jones,

02:17:13.020 | you know, the side kick to the thigh.

02:17:16.820 | It's longest weapon against your nearest point.

02:17:18.860 | In boxing is the jab,

02:17:20.260 | but in MMA, when you can use all your weapon,

02:17:23.260 | that's the kick to the thigh.

02:17:24.740 | I felt there is like kind of three dimension in martial art.

02:17:32.340 | There is the philosopher like Bruce Lee.

02:17:34.780 | There is the choreography, the choreograph people.

02:17:39.020 | Like for example, you see in movies, the stun people,

02:17:42.140 | they're incredible.

02:17:42.980 | Like the order one that does like forms in karate,

02:17:45.900 | like jumping, spin kick, back kick,

02:17:48.380 | like acrobatic stuff, mixed martial art.

02:17:50.620 | They are unbelievable.

02:17:52.260 | And there's also the one that compete in fighting.

02:17:56.460 | Like that's what I do.

02:17:58.060 | I personally specialize in.

02:18:01.180 | - Well, you also do the philosophy.

02:18:03.220 | - I do a little bit of philosophy,

02:18:04.340 | but that's, you know,

02:18:06.340 | - That's a consequence of the fighting.

02:18:08.020 | - I guess we are all like,

02:18:10.420 | we all practice the three dimension

02:18:12.340 | because martial art is, I would say it's,

02:18:15.700 | whether you want it or not,

02:18:17.820 | you have to touch these three dimension,

02:18:20.180 | but you will specialize in one.

02:18:21.940 | I specialize through my life in fighting,

02:18:24.660 | like the real thing in terms of fighting competition.

02:18:27.580 | Of course, if you do martial art,

02:18:30.220 | you will be able to defend yourself

02:18:31.620 | because it's a self-defense.

02:18:33.580 | However, you might not be able to fight as an elite

02:18:35.860 | and the most prestigious organization.

02:18:39.140 | And you might not be able to perform the stunt that,

02:18:42.860 | for example, the stuntman I've done in the series

02:18:46.540 | I was playing in the Falcon and Winter Soldier.

02:18:49.300 | These guys are incredible.

02:18:50.780 | They're like real life superhero.

02:18:52.740 | Things they do, it's, to me,

02:18:55.460 | like it's fascinating.

02:18:57.300 | It's amazing.

02:18:58.500 | And also Bruce Lee, the philosophy.

02:19:01.140 | How many hours he took thinking about these stuff.

02:19:06.140 | I'm sure he did not just came out of nowhere.

02:19:10.660 | He was thinking, that's mean he slept on this.

02:19:14.380 | How many hours?

02:19:16.900 | It's just unbelievable.

02:19:18.100 | - He's like water, my friend.

02:19:20.020 | How many times has he thought about water going to bed

02:19:23.220 | before he said that?

02:19:24.700 | Oh, let me ask a very important fundamental question

02:19:27.100 | about martial arts.

02:19:27.940 | We're both wearing a suit and tie.

02:19:30.780 | Joe Rogan thinks that wearing a tie is a huge disadvantage.

02:19:34.940 | Is it clip on or is it an actual tie?

02:19:37.340 | - It's an actual tie.

02:19:38.380 | - So do you agree or disagree with Joe Rogan

02:19:42.580 | that wearing a tie is a martial arts

02:19:47.060 | significant disadvantage in terms of combat,

02:19:49.780 | in a combat scenario?

02:19:51.620 | - In a fight, I think it would be a disadvantage.

02:19:55.060 | - Yes.

02:19:55.900 | - Okay, but did this make any sense?

02:19:56.740 | - I work as a security bouncer in nightclubs

02:19:59.340 | and I had to work in a certain event

02:20:02.500 | when I was 18 years old.

02:20:04.020 | - Yes.

02:20:04.860 | - And sometimes I had to work in certain event

02:20:09.140 | that I was in suit and tie.

02:20:11.580 | I never had to use my force to take someone out

02:20:16.580 | when I was in suit and tie.

02:20:19.620 | But if I would have had to,

02:20:21.620 | before going to the table to physically take the guy out,

02:20:25.140 | I would have removed my tie

02:20:27.020 | and I would have called backup for sure.

02:20:29.260 | And I would have probably used the element of surprise

02:20:32.060 | to be first on the guy.

02:20:34.460 | - Yes.

02:20:35.300 | - When you're in a bar, same thing.

02:20:37.740 | You call backup first and you make sure

02:20:41.260 | you ask the waitress before to clean the table

02:20:44.340 | before you go.

02:20:45.180 | - Yeah.

02:20:46.020 | - And when you go, you have to use the element of surprise.

02:20:48.980 | - Yeah.

02:20:49.820 | - Because fighting in mixed martial art

02:20:52.420 | and fighting in the street, it's two different thing.

02:20:55.900 | And yes, I'm a mixed martial art competitor.

02:21:00.140 | That's what I've done all my life.

02:21:01.260 | But I had a lot of street fight in my life.

02:21:03.500 | A lot when I was in--

02:21:04.580 | - What's the difference?

02:21:05.420 | What's like the--

02:21:06.260 | - Oh my God, it's a huge difference.

02:21:08.500 | There is guys that if I would have a choice

02:21:11.940 | to fight, for example, certain guys in UFC

02:21:16.940 | in a street fight and fight other guys that are not in UFC,

02:21:20.140 | I would maybe sometimes pick guys that are not in UFC,

02:21:23.420 | not necessarily.

02:21:24.540 | Because in a street fight, there's no referee that says go.

02:21:28.300 | It's the element of surprise.

02:21:29.620 | And when you're a nice guy, you're not the aggressor.

02:21:32.980 | You always have the element of surprise.

02:21:35.260 | That's what it taught me.

02:21:36.100 | - Oh, interesting.

02:21:37.180 | - Yes, because if--

02:21:39.700 | - Aggression, you're sacrificing the surprise.

02:21:40.540 | - The person will not come punch you without warning.

02:21:43.740 | It needs to trigger some,

02:21:46.580 | it's something need to be triggered before.

02:21:49.320 | So if someone comes because he's looking for trouble,

02:21:53.220 | there is sign that he's looking for trouble.

02:21:56.020 | So I was just talking with Bass Ruthen this weekend about it.

02:21:59.740 | - I saw that.

02:22:00.820 | - Every martial art comes from,

02:22:04.300 | like some martial art are from exclusively for competition.

02:22:08.460 | Like sport karate, like certain martial art.

02:22:12.580 | But traditional martial art are for the street,

02:22:16.180 | are for self-defense.

02:22:17.940 | And I start my background in Kyokushin karate.

02:22:20.180 | So it's for, and I did Japanese Jiu Jitsu.

02:22:22.300 | So my background, before I even start training

02:22:25.900 | for mixed martial art, my background is in self-defense.

02:22:28.700 | And it's very important to understand that

02:22:31.700 | in a street fight, the element of surprise is everything.

02:22:34.620 | And there are no rules.

02:22:36.140 | You can go for the eyes, the neck, the--

02:22:39.140 | - Surprise is everything.

02:22:40.660 | - It's total ball game, you know what I mean?

02:22:43.060 | You have the chair, the beard,

02:22:45.100 | there's so much more thing going on.

02:22:48.180 | So the idea of, because you are a UFC fighter,

02:22:51.740 | you think you're invincible, this is BS.

02:22:54.700 | Anybody can come, like if a big guy who punch very hard,

02:22:58.580 | most people don't know how to punch.

02:22:59.980 | By the way, they don't know how to make a fist

02:23:01.420 | and throw it in a forward direction.

02:23:02.780 | But if someone knows how to do it,

02:23:05.260 | I don't care who you are.

02:23:06.380 | If you could be Francis Ngan,

02:23:08.140 | someone come behind your head and bang.

02:23:10.660 | Or let's say there's an argument

02:23:12.700 | and you get surprised by a punch.

02:23:14.580 | You can be dropped and lose a fight.

02:23:16.260 | That doesn't matter.

02:23:17.900 | The element of surprise is everything.

02:23:20.100 | - So you were saying remove all the sources

02:23:22.060 | of the elements of surprise.

02:23:23.260 | All the, clear the bar, remove the tie.

02:23:26.020 | I still disagree with you about the tie.

02:23:28.020 | (laughing)

02:23:30.540 | - Just for your information,

02:23:32.460 | if someone comes looking for trouble

02:23:35.260 | and you see me do this,

02:23:36.780 | and going sideways a little bit,

02:23:40.140 | that's my position that I'm thinking

02:23:42.460 | that maybe something will happen.

02:23:43.820 | And I'm about--

02:23:44.940 | - That's a good non-threatening--

02:23:45.780 | - I'm about thinking about doing the element.

02:23:47.660 | I'm about to punch you or to do something

02:23:50.860 | to take care of this.

02:23:52.180 | - See, to flip the table on you then,

02:23:54.180 | wearing a tie is communicating the nice guy image.

02:23:58.180 | So it actually gives you the freedom

02:24:00.020 | for more elements of surprise by wearing the tie.

02:24:03.060 | If you take it off, that's more,

02:24:05.940 | you're limiting your options.

02:24:08.020 | 'Cause nobody's gonna expect the guy

02:24:09.340 | in the tie to do anything.

02:24:10.900 | - I'm a big believer that sometimes

02:24:13.980 | it's not only materialism,

02:24:16.700 | it's what you project.

02:24:18.260 | - That's true.

02:24:19.100 | - Let's say I had troubles in a bar

02:24:21.260 | and I was able to deflect,

02:24:23.620 | the guy was looking for trouble talking to me,

02:24:25.420 | and I was able to deflect his whole aggressivity

02:24:28.020 | by saying like, "Hey man, that's a nice shirt.

02:24:30.580 | "Where did you get it?"

02:24:32.380 | Like saying something stupid like this.

02:24:35.300 | Then it kind of break the momentum.

02:24:38.380 | But the guy was looking for trouble.

02:24:41.020 | I don't wanna fight you.

02:24:42.620 | I don't wanna fight you,

02:24:43.460 | but I'm not gonna wait until you pull,

02:24:47.260 | you make the first move.

02:24:48.820 | Because the minute you touch me,

02:24:51.620 | you push me or you touch me,

02:24:53.300 | you declare war.

02:24:54.180 | And the war is unleashed my friend.

02:24:56.420 | And I'm taking you out of order

02:24:58.740 | with the necessary force of course.

02:25:01.380 | You know what I mean?

02:25:02.220 | That's the thing with martial art.

02:25:05.060 | If you use the necessary force to take out a problem,

02:25:08.580 | it's okay.

02:25:09.500 | But if you take advantage of it,

02:25:12.420 | that's when it's not all right,

02:25:13.740 | because it's a weapon.

02:25:15.260 | So if someone comes up to me,

02:25:17.540 | that's my position.

02:25:18.380 | And now I'm assessing the situation.

02:25:21.340 | That's how they teach in self-defense.

02:25:24.580 | Here, never put your hands down.

02:25:26.580 | Always hand there.

02:25:27.980 | 'Cause I'm boom or boom.

02:25:29.860 | Like this is very important.

02:25:33.220 | And you never,

02:25:34.620 | you're always your center line on the side.

02:25:36.340 | Ah yeah, like this.

02:25:38.260 | If someone knows martial art,

02:25:40.460 | he will recognize that pattern.

02:25:42.260 | But if you go like this,

02:25:43.180 | if someone talks to you and you go like this,

02:25:45.420 | that's mean you're telling the guy that you wanna fight,

02:25:47.940 | you don't wanna do that.

02:25:48.780 | You don't wanna, ah yeah.

02:25:49.940 | That's the position.

02:25:54.540 | 'Cause your hands are here.

02:25:55.860 | Whatever you can do, you're here.

02:25:57.700 | - Well, also your ear tells the story.

02:25:59.820 | - It's not everybody that knows that, however.

02:26:03.580 | Some people might think that it's my mom

02:26:05.740 | grabbed me by the ear and pulled me

02:26:07.180 | because I didn't listen to her.

02:26:09.460 | A real fight in the street

02:26:10.860 | and a fight in mixed martial art is a different ball game.

02:26:14.660 | - What do you think is the best martial art

02:26:16.900 | to prepare you for street fighting?

02:26:19.180 | People often kind of have this discussion of jujitsu,

02:26:21.660 | maybe boxing, maybe wrestling.

02:26:24.060 | Do you think,

02:26:25.220 | when you talk about a young person studying martial arts

02:26:27.500 | to prepare themselves.

02:26:28.900 | - For a street fight,

02:26:31.380 | it's often much different than a mixed martial art fight.

02:26:34.220 | And I know there's a lot of BS in the world of martial art,

02:26:38.780 | like self-defense stuff.

02:26:40.460 | But I believe self-defense is very important

02:26:45.460 | in a way to understand the situation,

02:26:49.860 | to understand those situations that might occur,

02:26:54.860 | how to deal with it.

02:26:57.700 | Because not necessarily that we talk about the technicality,

02:27:02.620 | we talk about the tacticality, the tactics.

02:27:06.060 | Like when I'm talking to you about the element of surprise,

02:27:08.900 | it's important, this is not technique.

02:27:10.500 | A technique is a punch or techniques

02:27:13.340 | that I physically will use to enable my opponent,

02:27:18.060 | my aggressor.

02:27:19.900 | Tactic is the tactic I'm telling you about

02:27:21.980 | is in a street fight.

02:27:23.500 | If someone is looking for trouble

02:27:24.820 | and I feel the heat rising as the conversation goes,

02:27:28.100 | that's the position I'm gonna take.

02:27:29.220 | And I have to be first.

02:27:32.340 | I cannot let him go first.

02:27:34.540 | So I have to strike first or do something.

02:27:36.500 | This is the first thing that generally I have to agree on.

02:27:41.500 | After that, of course, there's the knowledge.

02:27:47.020 | If you're a professional fighter,

02:27:48.580 | you have a huge advantage.

02:27:51.300 | Once the fight is started, the war is declared,

02:27:53.700 | now everything goes.

02:27:55.820 | But generally speaking,

02:27:58.180 | the person that will have the first blow

02:28:02.060 | or the first punch

02:28:05.340 | will have a huge advantage.

02:28:08.260 | It's like doing a hundred meter race

02:28:09.940 | and having a headstart.

02:28:11.540 | - And that you can't prepare for with any martial art.

02:28:14.860 | - Yeah, and if I'm a smart guy, I know how to fight.

02:28:17.660 | If a guy like an heavyweight champion comes to me

02:28:21.020 | or like, you know, I know what to do to disable him.

02:28:26.020 | Like boom, or here, or the neck, you know?

02:28:30.420 | Like, and if you blind him, what is he gonna do?

02:28:33.660 | You know what I mean?

02:28:34.820 | So, or a bottle, you know what I mean?

02:28:37.500 | So, the element of surprise is, it's everything.

02:28:40.780 | So, that's why it's always good to be the nice guy

02:28:44.660 | and not looking for trouble,

02:28:45.620 | because if you're not looking for trouble,

02:28:47.460 | you have the headstart,

02:28:48.380 | you have the option of having a headstart.

02:28:50.500 | - So, what you're saying is being a nice guy

02:28:52.500 | is the best form of self-defense,

02:28:54.180 | maybe a little humor too.

02:28:56.740 | - You know, I have learned that.

02:28:58.020 | I've learned that when I was a kid.

02:29:00.020 | I was about maybe seven, six years old.

02:29:04.460 | We used to play, in Montreal, there's a lot of snow.

02:29:06.820 | We used to play King of the Mountain.

02:29:09.620 | That's the first combat lesson that I've learned in my life.

02:29:13.460 | And I managed, somehow, it was a lot of kids,

02:29:15.380 | I managed to get on the top of the mountain.

02:29:17.380 | And another guy came in on top of the mountain,

02:29:20.740 | and he was angry that I was there before him.

02:29:24.660 | When you play King of the Mountain,

02:29:27.180 | it was a mountain of snow,

02:29:29.100 | you don't strike each other, we just wrestle and push.

02:29:31.900 | And I managed to be first.

02:29:33.180 | And when he came, he says to me,

02:29:35.900 | say, "Okay, you wanna fight?"

02:29:38.900 | And I said, "Yeah."

02:29:40.020 | I didn't know what he mean, like, "I wanna fight,

02:29:41.940 | "you wanna wrestle?"

02:29:42.780 | He said, "I say yes."

02:29:45.060 | He punched me right in the face, boom.

02:29:47.580 | And then I fall on the bottom of the mountain.

02:29:51.260 | Then when I fall down,

02:29:53.340 | I remember that vision in my life,

02:29:54.820 | because I will remember that for the rest of my life.

02:29:59.420 | I'm about to stand up,

02:30:00.980 | and I see the blood coming out of my nose.

02:30:02.740 | I see the snow is red because my nose is bleeding.

02:30:06.740 | Now I remember the limit of surprises, everything.

02:30:11.340 | My first street fight, I lost it.

02:30:13.700 | I got, I didn't get knocked out,

02:30:15.020 | but I got dropped on the bottom of the snow mountain.

02:30:19.420 | And I was like, "Ah, he got me,"

02:30:20.780 | because I was not expecting it.

02:30:22.100 | My hand, I was not expecting a punch.

02:30:24.940 | So from there, when I felt the heat during an argument

02:30:29.940 | or something was not right,

02:30:31.460 | I always stroke first.

02:30:33.340 | I didn't win all my fight,

02:30:34.780 | because sometimes there were more than one guys on me,

02:30:37.780 | you know, but I think it's important

02:30:41.620 | to not be the aggressor,

02:30:43.820 | so you have the element of surprise,

02:30:45.860 | and always use that in your favor.

02:30:47.460 | - That's so brilliant.

02:30:48.900 | Let me go from the very practical

02:30:51.180 | to the most impractically huge question

02:30:54.260 | about the meaning of life.

02:30:55.900 | You said that when great depths of unrelenting sorrow

02:31:01.220 | punctuated by great peaks of joy and liberation,

02:31:04.820 | the result is delicious.

02:31:06.700 | So what do you think is the meaning

02:31:09.660 | of this whole journey that we're on, this life?

02:31:13.700 | What makes life delicious?

02:31:16.340 | - To me, you know,

02:31:19.460 | satisfaction is the M for me.

02:31:22.860 | Like I always, if I'm satisfied,

02:31:26.340 | that's mean I have no, nothing to live for.

02:31:29.380 | I'm not talking only about my career,

02:31:31.860 | I'm talking about my life.

02:31:33.340 | What do you want in your life?

02:31:34.580 | You want kids, you want a family,

02:31:36.980 | you want to be champion.

02:31:37.900 | What do you want in your life?

02:31:38.980 | You have like a long-term goal, short-term goal?

02:31:41.700 | In mixed martial art, I achieve what I needed to achieve.

02:31:48.580 | I'm satisfied.

02:31:50.460 | I'm no longer the same Josh St-Pierre

02:31:52.060 | than when I was begging for a title shot on my knees.

02:31:54.900 | I move on from it.

02:31:59.260 | Now I had a chance to go into movies.

02:32:02.340 | Now that same insane,

02:32:06.860 | that same insane drive that I had to be

02:32:10.940 | the champion in the world, now I put it into acting.

02:32:15.020 | Like I'm having a lot of acting class now

02:32:16.860 | and luckily for me, the timing was amazing.

02:32:20.540 | I got cast for "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier"

02:32:24.420 | that is on Disney+ channel.

02:32:27.420 | It's a huge, huge project to be part of for me

02:32:31.460 | because it's like you play basketball,

02:32:34.820 | you have a chance to go for the NBA right away.

02:32:37.100 | I was very lucky.

02:32:38.740 | The timing was just too perfect.

02:32:41.100 | And so you need to constantly challenging yourself

02:32:45.900 | and having goals to achieve.

02:32:48.100 | You know, like keep your brain activated, like keep working.

02:32:52.580 | And the proof of that is that you see sometimes

02:32:56.500 | some old people, like when they retire,

02:33:00.580 | very often, sometime you see that they got sick

02:33:03.340 | and they die or because they...

02:33:05.940 | It's either because sometime we think we...

02:33:09.620 | We make, we benefit, we do something good for them

02:33:16.020 | by making not work and giving them a break.

02:33:20.220 | So in our mind, we're like,

02:33:21.060 | "Oh, he's going to be able to relax."

02:33:23.780 | But in their mind, it's not good

02:33:26.100 | because they're not busy, they have nothing to live for.

02:33:28.060 | Like my dad is used to work all the time

02:33:31.020 | and he has always something to do.

02:33:33.380 | He's retired now.

02:33:35.020 | I myself now call him by force to find him some job.

02:33:39.300 | "Hey, dad, can you come in my house?

02:33:42.380 | I have this thing to repair.

02:33:44.100 | I don't know how to do it."

02:33:44.940 | So it gives him a reason,

02:33:48.300 | not to live because he has other things to do,

02:33:50.260 | but what I mean is also in life,

02:33:53.300 | I think you always don't be afraid to aim high.

02:33:57.860 | Don't be afraid to fix your objective very high

02:34:01.740 | and never be able to reach it.

02:34:04.020 | - Be afraid of reaching your goals, essentially.

02:34:06.020 | I mean, you always have to keep moving it out.

02:34:08.220 | You think there's a...

02:34:09.980 | It's an interesting question

02:34:11.020 | 'cause you've been acting in some really exciting things.

02:34:14.660 | Do you think there's a dramatic role

02:34:17.620 | where it's basically, you go full Robert De Niro in "Taxi"

02:34:23.620 | driver, do you think there'll be a full length feature film

02:34:27.100 | with Georges St-Pierre?

02:34:28.140 | - I liken there's level to this thing.

02:34:31.780 | I'm aware that I have to restart as a white belt.

02:34:35.580 | And for some people, it could be discouraging,

02:34:38.380 | but for me, man, it's great.

02:34:39.820 | I love it.

02:34:41.020 | I freaking love it.

02:34:42.020 | I embrace it because everybody told me

02:34:44.020 | like I would never be able to do it and it's fine.

02:34:47.300 | But, and also the outcome of a failure

02:34:52.380 | in the sport of mixed martial art is much more serious

02:34:57.260 | than the outcome of a failure for a movie, for example.

02:35:00.580 | For if you zig when you should zag in a fight,

02:35:03.220 | you get knocked out.

02:35:04.060 | If you zig when you should zag in on set,

02:35:06.180 | oh, cut, we'll do it again.

02:35:07.660 | And I know that I will be most likely be chosen

02:35:13.860 | for action martial art roles because that's my background.

02:35:19.780 | There is this new trend in Hollywood now

02:35:21.780 | when they want someone to play an Italian guy,

02:35:24.780 | they're gonna choose a real Italian person.

02:35:27.820 | When they want someone to play a Russian guy,

02:35:29.580 | they're gonna choose someone

02:35:30.780 | who has a real Russian background.

02:35:33.220 | Now they want a real martial art fighter.

02:35:36.620 | I've done fighting all my life.

02:35:38.220 | I just need to improve my acting skill.

02:35:40.180 | But when I train in acting,

02:35:43.860 | I get myself out of my comfort zone.

02:35:46.220 | I'm not playing a role of a martial art guy.

02:35:48.420 | I'm playing like romance, comedy, drama.

02:35:52.540 | So when I go on set and playing the role

02:35:56.660 | of a badass martial art guy, it's easier.

02:36:00.260 | So like in training for a fight,

02:36:02.380 | I always make my preparation harder than the actual task.

02:36:07.380 | - I would love to see where,

02:36:10.100 | I don't know if you've seen the "Wrestler"

02:36:11.300 | with Mickey Rourke.

02:36:13.100 | - Oh yeah.

02:36:13.940 | - Those types of films, I would love to,

02:36:16.540 | I would love to you do something like that.

02:36:19.260 | If not now, then in 10, 20 years, I could see that.

02:36:22.820 | That would be amazing.

02:36:23.660 | There's levels to the game, right?

02:36:25.300 | - Yes, it's gradual.

02:36:26.460 | And I'm aware that I don't wanna take something

02:36:29.860 | on my shoulder that I won't be able to deliver.

02:36:32.540 | It's like a fighter who wants to go

02:36:33.820 | for a title shot right away,

02:36:35.500 | it could very well break him.

02:36:38.460 | You know what I mean?

02:36:39.300 | And I don't wanna do that because I know,

02:36:41.300 | I've done some gigs in the past,

02:36:43.500 | but I was not focusing on it

02:36:45.140 | because I was focusing on competing as a martial art,

02:36:48.900 | martial artist in competition in MMA.

02:36:52.020 | But now I take it very seriously.

02:36:53.660 | So I cannot do the same mistake again

02:36:56.020 | because I've done some stuff,

02:36:57.140 | I've done it for the money and it was good.

02:37:00.140 | It was fun to be beat up by Jacques-Claude Van Damme,

02:37:03.140 | Steven Seagal and everything,

02:37:04.340 | but my acting was not on point at that time.

02:37:08.620 | So every time I'm gonna come back from now on, on screen,

02:37:13.740 | I need to be sharp because you cannot mess it up.

02:37:16.380 | If you mess it up, it's like a loss on your record.

02:37:19.220 | You're not taken seriously.

02:37:21.340 | So that's how I see it.

02:37:23.020 | And it's very fun because I had a chance

02:37:27.740 | to talk to a lot of guys.

02:37:28.940 | And on top of all the class that I'm having,

02:37:31.420 | like a few days ago, I was with Danny Trujillo.

02:37:34.820 | And I always seek the advice of actors

02:37:38.740 | when I see some of them that,

02:37:40.580 | because I really admire how they do,

02:37:42.780 | how they project their emotion.

02:37:44.140 | And I asked him, Danny Trujillo, I said to him,

02:37:47.060 | he's an amazing guy, by the way, very nice guy.

02:37:50.460 | And I asked him, I say,

02:37:51.620 | how do you do to be,

02:37:54.380 | because you scared the hell out of me,

02:37:57.820 | how do you do to be so scary?

02:38:00.820 | Like, what is your trick?

02:38:03.020 | And he tells me, he's like,

02:38:03.860 | "George, if you threaten someone and you scream at him,

02:38:08.860 | "I'm gonna kill you."

02:38:12.260 | It's not as scary if you're smiling and you say,

02:38:15.340 | I'm gonna kill you.

02:38:18.260 | And he says also to me that,

02:38:21.100 | another advice he gave me is like,

02:38:22.940 | when you say this,

02:38:25.180 | think about you killing him for real,

02:38:28.420 | that how you hate him and how you're gonna kill him.

02:38:31.100 | So the camera will take the emotion out.

02:38:35.060 | Don't try physically to do that.

02:38:36.860 | That's a mistake I used to do before.

02:38:38.860 | I used to physically show that I'm strong and angry

02:38:42.020 | and to be mean.

02:38:44.180 | So these are just an example of tricks

02:38:47.100 | that I learned sometimes when I met an actor.

02:38:49.940 | I always try to learn from everybody that I met in my life.

02:38:53.180 | - It's a difficult journey

02:38:54.220 | 'cause then you have to go to some dark places as a person,

02:38:57.180 | 'cause you really have to imagine some dark things.

02:39:01.340 | It's fascinating, actually.

02:39:02.780 | - I think a lot of the actor,

02:39:04.380 | they have sometimes problems because of that.

02:39:08.300 | Because now I understand why.

02:39:10.580 | If you work on your bicep,

02:39:12.420 | your bicep will grow, right?

02:39:15.060 | Because it's the stress that you put on it

02:39:18.260 | that will make it grow, right?

02:39:19.980 | Emotions, I believe, are the same way.

02:39:23.140 | If you're used to dig inside of you down deep

02:39:28.140 | to make your negative emotion,

02:39:31.580 | depressive emotion comes out,

02:39:34.380 | if something bad in your life happen,

02:39:37.060 | you will fall into those emotion much more rapidly

02:39:40.340 | that someone who does not that every day.

02:39:43.420 | You know what I mean?

02:39:44.260 | Because it's like a muscle memory.

02:39:45.860 | Like if you program yourself to react a certain way,

02:39:48.660 | you will reach that point very often.

02:39:51.580 | So that's why sometimes you see some guys,

02:39:53.780 | we often blame it on drug,

02:39:56.900 | but I think it's also because of the acting.

02:39:58.820 | They're used to be so on the hop top

02:40:02.020 | and sometimes they go to the down deep.

02:40:04.140 | So they're both extreme, you know?

02:40:08.060 | - You gotta be psychologically tough.

02:40:09.540 | And that's life.

02:40:10.380 | This is, I'm so excited to see you challenge yourself

02:40:12.700 | in that direction.

02:40:14.060 | - That's one thing that I'm a little bit afraid

02:40:16.940 | that happened to me.

02:40:19.180 | I really hope I'll always be, you know,

02:40:23.740 | like having a problem to control my emotion

02:40:26.540 | be too much extreme. - Oh, yeah.

02:40:29.060 | - I hope it does not happen to me.

02:40:30.420 | And if I feel that I'm going towards that,

02:40:35.420 | I'm gonna, you know, give up on my new objective

02:40:40.420 | and find something else to achieve.

02:40:42.780 | - But in your personal life,

02:40:44.660 | you wanna be real with your emotions.

02:40:46.460 | You don't want to, it doesn't, you know,

02:40:49.380 | just like with biceps,

02:40:50.340 | you don't want biceps that are too big.

02:40:52.540 | - You are real, but you are extreme real.

02:40:56.100 | And that's the, that's what I think.

02:41:00.140 | Sometimes it could happen to actors

02:41:01.580 | when they go too much into their emotion.

02:41:04.220 | Like we talk about like sometimes guys

02:41:05.780 | that commit suicide, perhaps, you know,

02:41:09.620 | I don't know, because I don't know their real life,

02:41:12.060 | but it could be something that they get so much

02:41:15.740 | into their character.

02:41:17.180 | I didn't understand it at first

02:41:18.900 | because I never had acting class,

02:41:20.780 | but after a while that you have acting class now,

02:41:23.100 | you start to realize that, yeah,

02:41:24.620 | I understand why some actor get caught up in their emotion,

02:41:28.620 | because that can have an influence on their life, right?

02:41:33.540 | - You're on a fascinating journey, George.

02:41:36.980 | I can't tell you how much it means to me

02:41:39.060 | that you'd be so nice to me,

02:41:40.580 | that you'll give me so much respect.

02:41:42.260 | Just that tells everything I need to know

02:41:44.740 | about you as a human being.

02:41:45.820 | With everything you've accomplished,

02:41:47.620 | you waste all your time and you're so nice to me

02:41:51.180 | just as a fellow human being, man.

02:41:53.100 | I have so much respect, I'm so honored.

02:41:55.660 | And the energy you give me by just even showing up here,

02:41:58.580 | I'll carry that forward for a long time to come.

02:42:00.540 | George, I love it.

02:42:01.380 | Thank you so much for talking to me.

02:42:02.540 | - No, thank you, Lex, for having me on the show.

02:42:05.220 | I've been looking to talk to you for a long time.

02:42:07.780 | For me, talking to a guy like you,

02:42:09.540 | it's a great learning experience because I always learn.

02:42:13.380 | And life is fascinating to me

02:42:16.580 | and all the experience that we have in life,

02:42:20.380 | it's something that can make us grow.

02:42:22.300 | And this experience for me just make me grow as well.

02:42:27.260 | Plus we look pretty damn sharp today.

02:42:29.140 | - Men in black, my friend.

02:42:30.580 | - Men in black.

02:42:31.940 | Thanks, George.

02:42:32.780 | (laughing)

02:42:33.620 | - Nice.

02:42:35.140 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:42:36.820 | with George St. Pierre.

02:42:38.100 | And thank you to Allform, ExpressVPN, Blinkist,

02:42:42.620 | Theragun, and The Information.

02:42:45.420 | Check them out in the description to support this podcast.

02:42:49.060 | And now let me leave you with some words

02:42:51.180 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

02:42:53.420 | Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world.

02:42:57.500 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

02:43:00.460 | (upbeat music)

02:43:03.060 | (upbeat music)

02:43:05.660 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Georges St-Pierre: The Science of Fighting | Lex Fridman Podcast #179

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