Anya Fernald: Regenerative Farming and the Art of Cooking Meat

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Anja Fernald,

00:00:02.720 | co-founder of Belcampo Farms,

00:00:04.760 | that was founded with the purpose to create meat

00:00:07.360 | that's good for people, the planet, and the animals,

00:00:10.560 | specifically treating their animals

00:00:12.840 | as ethically as possible.

00:00:14.900 | In this, she sought to revolutionize the meat industry

00:00:18.120 | from the inside out.

00:00:19.600 | She's also a scholar and practitioner

00:00:22.120 | of regenerative agriculture,

00:00:24.080 | and she's a chef who has appeared many times

00:00:26.960 | as a judge on "Iron Chef."

00:00:28.760 | Plus, she has one of my favorite food-related Instagrams.

00:00:32.920 | On top of that, she's also a longtime friend

00:00:34.940 | of Andrew Huberman, which is how we first got connected.

00:00:38.520 | Quick mention of our sponsors,

00:00:40.320 | Gala Games, Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic, and Fundrise.

00:00:45.320 | Check them out in the description to support this podcast.

00:00:48.820 | As a side note, let me say that I got the chance to visit

00:00:52.040 | and spend a few days with Anja

00:00:53.880 | at Belcampo Farms in Northern California.

00:00:56.840 | I met many animals there, from cows to pigs,

00:00:59.960 | and saw the amazing land on which they grazed.

00:01:03.160 | I butchered meat.

00:01:04.640 | I watched Anja cook many amazing meals.

00:01:07.680 | I ate raw meat and cooked meat,

00:01:10.400 | and spent long hours at the bonfire talking with friends

00:01:14.440 | and listening to the sounds of nature.

00:01:16.800 | I hiked, swam in a cold mountain lake,

00:01:19.640 | and slept in a tent underneath the stars.

00:01:22.820 | It was an amazing, eye-opening experience,

00:01:25.520 | especially in my first ever visit to a slaughterhouse.

00:01:29.960 | The term slaughterhouse is haunting in itself.

00:01:33.600 | The animals I met lived a great life,

00:01:36.560 | but in the end, they were slaughtered

00:01:38.960 | in the most ethical way possible,

00:01:40.720 | but slaughtered nevertheless.

00:01:43.020 | Seeing animals with whom just the day before

00:01:45.200 | I made a connection be converted to meat

00:01:47.960 | that I then consumed was deeply honest to me.

00:01:51.840 | This ethical farm, Belcampo,

00:01:54.480 | represents less than 1% of animals

00:01:56.320 | raised in the United States.

00:01:58.120 | The rest is factory farmed.

00:02:00.560 | I could not escape the thought

00:02:01.960 | of the 40 to 50 billion animals worldwide

00:02:05.000 | raised in terrible conditions on these factory farms.

00:02:08.400 | I've spent most of my life thinking about

00:02:10.680 | and being in contact with human suffering,

00:02:13.880 | but the landscape of suffering

00:02:15.200 | in the minds of conscious beings

00:02:16.800 | is much larger than humans.

00:02:19.000 | I must admit that I still am haunted by human suffering

00:02:22.240 | more than animal suffering.

00:02:24.520 | Perhaps I will one day see the wrong

00:02:26.660 | in me drawing such a line.

00:02:28.720 | Either way, the visit to Belcampo Farms

00:02:31.000 | made me realize that I have not thought deeply enough

00:02:34.240 | about the ethics of my choices

00:02:36.280 | and the choices of human civilization

00:02:38.160 | with respect to animals.

00:02:39.920 | And more importantly, I have not thought or learned enough

00:02:44.060 | about large scale solutions to alleviate animal suffering.

00:02:48.080 | Belcampo is paving the way on this

00:02:50.040 | and is the reason I wanted to show my support

00:02:52.200 | for their and Anja's efforts in regenerative farming

00:02:55.960 | and ethical treatment of animals.

00:02:58.760 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast

00:03:00.760 | and here is my conversation with Anja Vernald.

00:03:03.800 | If you're watching the video version of this

00:03:15.720 | and are asking yourself why we're in nature right now,

00:03:17.980 | there's actually a beautiful mountain in the background.

00:03:21.960 | There's an incredible vast landscape, there's a farm.

00:03:25.320 | We're sitting behind a table and nevertheless,

00:03:28.920 | I'm wearing a suit and tie amidst nature.

00:03:32.400 | We're at the beautiful Belcampo Farms.

00:03:35.440 | We're going to talk about that,

00:03:36.840 | this incredible place you have here,

00:03:38.320 | but you cooked some meat yesterday.

00:03:40.720 | It tasted delicious.

00:03:42.080 | So I'd love to talk about just the science

00:03:44.700 | and art of cooking first.

00:03:46.020 | You as a chef, when you think of cooking,

00:03:49.620 | is it a science or is it an art?

00:03:51.960 | - Art and service together, probably.

00:03:55.600 | Art to me because it's about creating something of beauty

00:04:00.600 | and being responsive and creating something

00:04:03.440 | that's expression of creativity and love.

00:04:06.240 | Cooking also has a very strong element of service

00:04:09.600 | and it doesn't mean necessarily service to another person,

00:04:11.680 | but like service to health, wellness, environment.

00:04:15.080 | There's an element of supporting through food

00:04:17.480 | in how I approach cooking.

00:04:19.000 | So it's bigger than just like how the ingredients

00:04:21.320 | come together to form a taste.

00:04:22.720 | It's the whole pipeline,

00:04:23.800 | like the fact that there's a lot of work

00:04:26.880 | that went into bringing the ingredients together

00:04:30.940 | and then giving you the ability to make the meal

00:04:35.940 | and then who gets to consume the meal and the whole thing.

00:04:39.200 | And you see that as service as opposed to just the taste.

00:04:43.080 | - Yeah, I also think of food as one of the key ways

00:04:46.720 | that we interact with our environment.

00:04:48.780 | It's the part of our environment

00:04:52.600 | that goes inside us most visibly.

00:04:54.600 | Of course, we interact with our environment.

00:04:55.920 | We could have skin creams that have certain things in them

00:04:58.520 | or our clothes can then be absorbed.

00:05:01.040 | There's things in the air, there's our water

00:05:02.960 | and there's food.

00:05:04.000 | It's like how we're engaging in the world physiologically.

00:05:07.520 | It's the most significant way we engage in our environment.

00:05:10.680 | - We're extracting resources, calories, energy

00:05:13.360 | from the environment in various ways

00:05:15.000 | in order to preserve our bodies.

00:05:19.160 | - There's also so many feedback loops

00:05:21.360 | that I don't think we know the beginning of

00:05:23.840 | that our bodies are picking up on around nutrients,

00:05:27.040 | available nutrients, immune response.

00:05:29.640 | Like there's deep levels of sensory evaluation

00:05:33.840 | that lead to health and alertness and wellness.

00:05:38.240 | You hear about this a lot, like with babies,

00:05:40.340 | that if there's a risk of an infection

00:05:43.900 | that a mom's breast milk will help the baby

00:05:46.400 | develop a resistance.

00:05:47.800 | Like there's this way that our bodies can tune into health

00:05:50.360 | and can't extrapolate from that in any specific way.

00:05:52.680 | But think about that as an example of like the many ways

00:05:55.280 | in which our bodies are reading available nutrients and food

00:05:58.440 | to signal other aspects of wellness and health.

00:06:01.720 | - That said, the final product of cooking

00:06:06.200 | is when done well is really delicious.

00:06:08.760 | And what we ate yesterday was really delicious.

00:06:10.560 | So that aspect of it, bringing the ingredients together

00:06:15.560 | in a way that tastes delicious,

00:06:17.520 | do you see that as a science or art?

00:06:19.880 | - That's the art of it.

00:06:21.200 | I mean, the art is like creating temptation and indulgence

00:06:25.520 | and giving people pause, you know,

00:06:27.520 | like creating experience that's like so sensual.

00:06:29.960 | And like, I love that about when I make something

00:06:33.360 | really simple and beautiful and delicious,

00:06:36.640 | the way that like there's that moment of silence

00:06:39.000 | at the table, and that to me is the moment of art,

00:06:42.000 | like of appreciation.

00:06:43.720 | - What about the buildup?

00:06:44.640 | I mean, we got to watch you make the stuff over a fire.

00:06:48.040 | So the calmness of the air, I mean, that's an experience.

00:06:51.080 | We don't often get to see that experience of the preparation.

00:06:54.840 | It's the anticipation, like you said.

00:06:56.560 | Maybe that's the most delicious part of a meal

00:06:58.200 | is the anticipation of it.

00:06:59.840 | - That's something that I'm glad you bring up

00:07:01.560 | 'cause it's an element that with eating so many of our meals

00:07:04.680 | like out of a bag and, you know,

00:07:08.120 | the instance where you start to eat the meals

00:07:09.880 | when the delivery shows up and you might smell something

00:07:12.160 | when you open the bag, right?

00:07:13.120 | And no judgment on that.

00:07:14.600 | That's something I do too, right?

00:07:16.160 | But that does take away a whole element

00:07:18.520 | of surprise and delight.

00:07:20.920 | And also I think of your body's ability to prepare for it.

00:07:23.520 | You know, you think about our most common memories

00:07:25.480 | of childhood for those of us who grew up in homes

00:07:28.200 | with parents who cooked is smell of things cooking.

00:07:31.760 | And it's not the eating of it,

00:07:33.040 | it's the smell of things cooking.

00:07:35.000 | So why is that so memorable?

00:07:37.400 | It's an anticipatory piece of food.

00:07:40.200 | That's what you remember about your experiences of food

00:07:42.520 | is the moment of like sweet anticipation

00:07:44.320 | of this great sensual experience

00:07:46.160 | that's gonna be really gratifying

00:07:47.960 | on these emotional and physical levels.

00:07:49.920 | So I think we're also resonating on those memories

00:07:52.680 | because it's like, it's an experience of food

00:07:55.440 | where the sensuality of it is kind of extended.

00:07:58.040 | So it's a long kind of arc of buildup

00:08:00.080 | and then you're eating it and it's amazing

00:08:01.560 | and then you're enjoying it and your body feels good.

00:08:03.760 | So all those pieces together,

00:08:05.360 | it's a much more memorable experience

00:08:06.880 | than just grabbing the cookie out of a bag, right?

00:08:09.000 | So look at our own and just revisit in your mind,

00:08:12.680 | like the memories of food, the most compelling ones,

00:08:15.480 | it's the smell and then the experience

00:08:18.880 | and then sometimes how one felt, right?

00:08:20.960 | - Yeah, and the people involved with the smell.

00:08:22.960 | So like somehow it's all tied in together,

00:08:25.240 | whether it's family or people close to you,

00:08:27.120 | or even if it's just chefs,

00:08:28.560 | there's something about the personality of the human

00:08:32.680 | involved in making the food

00:08:33.760 | that kind of sticks with you in the memory.

00:08:35.920 | And for me, I recently did a 72 hour fast

00:08:39.000 | and there's a kind of sadness after you eat that it's over.

00:08:43.000 | I think the most delicious part was the,

00:08:45.440 | I went to the grocery store

00:08:46.920 | and just actually walking around

00:08:49.600 | and looking at food with like everything looked delicious,

00:08:52.400 | even like the crappiest stuff looked delicious

00:08:54.520 | and I missed that.

00:08:56.480 | I really enjoyed that anticipation

00:08:58.080 | and then I picked out the meal,

00:08:59.640 | I went home and I cooked it and the whole thing took,

00:09:02.600 | I don't know, maybe two, three hours,

00:09:04.480 | like the whole process.

00:09:05.480 | And that was the most delicious part

00:09:07.520 | and the first taste of course.

00:09:08.720 | And then after it was over, there's a bit of a sadness

00:09:13.640 | 'cause the part I remember is the buildup, the anticipation.

00:09:16.880 | And then once you eat, it's over.

00:09:20.040 | We kind of focus on the destination,

00:09:22.080 | but it's the whole journey.

00:09:23.400 | The whole, like, even if you go to a restaurant,

00:09:25.880 | it's the conversations leading up to the meal

00:09:29.200 | and the first taste of the meal, that's where the joy is.

00:09:32.520 | And if you get to watch the making of that meal,

00:09:34.360 | that's incredible.

00:09:35.400 | That's where the smell, the visual,

00:09:38.240 | how the ingredients come together,

00:09:40.240 | especially as we were looking over the fire,

00:09:43.440 | like watching it, the fire play with the raw meat

00:09:48.440 | and over time bring out the colors, bring out the,

00:09:53.920 | I don't know, like you can visually associate the flavor,

00:09:57.480 | how it becomes a little bit burnt on the outside,

00:10:01.560 | it has a crispiness to it,

00:10:02.760 | it starts to gain that crispiness

00:10:03.960 | and immediately your past memories

00:10:06.240 | of the delicious crispiness of various foods you've eaten

00:10:08.640 | are somehow mapped into your,

00:10:10.480 | immediately you start to taste it visually.

00:10:13.200 | I don't know, yeah, that experience is magical.

00:10:15.160 | And of course, maybe it's the Russian thing,

00:10:17.760 | but I'm almost like saddened when it's over.

00:10:20.680 | - I think fasting is gaining in popularity

00:10:24.720 | because we're having to relearn the importance

00:10:27.320 | of being hungry in anticipation and delight.

00:10:31.960 | We have such a fear of hunger

00:10:34.440 | and that's really functional in evolution, right?

00:10:37.880 | But we have this deep fear of hunger

00:10:39.280 | and part of the great American experience

00:10:41.200 | has been that we don't have to be afraid of hunger at all

00:10:44.480 | 'cause there's food everywhere and it's really cheap.

00:10:47.160 | In all that abundance, we've lost this edge of hunger

00:10:51.960 | and we don't let ourselves get hungry.

00:10:54.280 | And that's one thing that I learned

00:10:56.080 | in part of my journey as a cook

00:10:57.840 | and chef has been moving abroad

00:11:00.280 | was the first time when I lived out of the US

00:11:03.840 | was the first time that I regularly experienced hunger

00:11:06.640 | because the time between meals was really long

00:11:09.960 | and that was just what everybody did.

00:11:12.160 | And so I was hungry for two hours before lunch.

00:11:14.920 | And that was the first time in my life

00:11:16.400 | that there hadn't just been readily available snacks.

00:11:19.240 | So I wonder if the intermittent fasting

00:11:21.760 | and part of the popularity around it,

00:11:23.800 | I'm sure there's all these amazing metabolic things

00:11:26.040 | that are happening, but also people might also feel better

00:11:28.640 | because they're really anticipating and enjoying food.

00:11:32.360 | And then if you look at the feelings of fullness,

00:11:34.840 | there's a really interesting thing that happens

00:11:37.360 | when you cook and your sense of fullness,

00:11:41.240 | which is if you cook and you're hungry,

00:11:45.360 | the experience of being around the food,

00:11:47.280 | smelling it, touching it, sampling it,

00:11:50.280 | you'll take your hunger down by 40%.

00:11:53.680 | And this is my own observation,

00:11:55.680 | but as we've all had the experience of cooking Thanksgiving

00:11:59.400 | and the cook never kind of wants

00:12:00.600 | to eat that much Thanksgiving.

00:12:01.560 | That's an extreme experience.

00:12:03.020 | But when you really dive in and you're cooking

00:12:05.260 | for a few hours and you're smelling and smelling

00:12:07.120 | and smelling, it totally changes your threshold

00:12:09.680 | of satiety and fullness because of other sensory things

00:12:14.200 | that are happening.

00:12:15.560 | And for those of us looking to maintain weight

00:12:18.600 | and something to consider in this is that cooking

00:12:20.780 | is also part of what your appetite when you're hungry,

00:12:25.000 | what are you hungry for?

00:12:27.040 | So we tend to think about calories,

00:12:28.840 | but when you're hungry, you might also be hungrier

00:12:31.120 | for a wider range of things.

00:12:33.520 | And it might be smells, it might be stopping.

00:12:36.840 | There's other elements and that's something,

00:12:38.760 | think as a cook that it's powerful to explore

00:12:43.000 | and be with and observe how your hunger changes

00:12:46.360 | when you're cooking.

00:12:47.960 | - Well, let me ask the romantic question.

00:12:49.600 | When did you first fall in love with cooking?

00:12:53.440 | - Me falling in love with cooking

00:12:55.400 | was about solving a problem in my family.

00:12:58.800 | And it had to do with my mom feeling very anxious

00:13:03.800 | about cooking and overwhelmed frequently

00:13:08.560 | when it came to meals.

00:13:09.680 | And I'm naturally very good at juggling a lot of things.

00:13:13.640 | And it was just something I could dive in and help

00:13:17.120 | and help my dad, who's very, I'm very, very close to.

00:13:21.120 | So it was a very functional role where I would see

00:13:25.360 | this kind of crescendo of anxiety around mealtimes as a kid

00:13:30.120 | and would be able to dive in and solve things.

00:13:35.120 | And I also loved women who cooked.

00:13:38.560 | Like my father's mother is a great cook.

00:13:41.520 | She was, I remember her telling me as a kid,

00:13:44.200 | I was asking her about church and why she went to church.

00:13:46.680 | And she's like, I mostly go to church

00:13:48.120 | because I get to cook for the potlucks.

00:13:52.240 | And so there was an openness around that,

00:13:54.840 | but she just loved to cook for people.

00:13:56.120 | And there was this real tenderness

00:13:57.960 | and expression of that love.

00:13:59.600 | So seeing women in my life who had this real tenderness

00:14:03.360 | and love that they shared through food,

00:14:05.920 | and then also being able in my own home

00:14:08.560 | to kind of pitch in and add value

00:14:10.640 | and help my mom and dad was really powerful for me

00:14:16.120 | 'cause I felt like I had a superpower.

00:14:18.160 | I felt like, oh man,

00:14:19.080 | I just made this stressful thing go away.

00:14:22.440 | That was huge.

00:14:23.520 | - It's kind of interesting.

00:14:24.360 | I don't know if you can comment on,

00:14:25.680 | especially for me growing up in Russia,

00:14:28.440 | it's probably true in a lot of cultures,

00:14:30.840 | maybe every culture that food,

00:14:33.120 | and especially like in a family,

00:14:35.160 | the mother that cooks is the source of love

00:14:38.440 | and like ties the family together,

00:14:40.160 | creates events where everyone comes together.

00:14:42.760 | It's one of the only chances of togetherness,

00:14:47.040 | the thing that bonds a family is like dinner

00:14:50.600 | or food, eating together.

00:14:52.520 | And I don't know what to do with that.

00:14:54.560 | It ties up with like dieting and so on.

00:14:57.160 | When I was on stricter diets,

00:14:58.560 | especially competing and cutting weight and stuff,

00:15:01.120 | it felt like I was almost like losing opportunity

00:15:03.980 | to connect with friends and family.

00:15:05.920 | It's interesting.

00:15:07.220 | It almost like cultures,

00:15:10.080 | we cannot fully experience love and family

00:15:12.480 | without eating.

00:15:13.640 | And on the flip side of that,

00:15:15.200 | eating enables us to experience love and family.

00:15:19.000 | I don't know what to do with that.

00:15:20.540 | - It's a tough one 'cause there's lots of layers

00:15:22.560 | around kind of gender roles and families changing and things.

00:15:27.560 | I'd say I agree around the alienation

00:15:30.720 | and I've done carnivore diet

00:15:32.280 | and I've tried some of these extreme protocols

00:15:34.000 | and I too, I suffered from loneliness.

00:15:36.400 | You know, it was like doing carnivore

00:15:38.240 | and not being able to eat what my kids ate

00:15:41.840 | and talk about it at the same time.

00:15:43.600 | Those pieces are real.

00:15:45.320 | And I wonder with all of these diets,

00:15:47.540 | if that structure is actually helping

00:15:51.320 | or just taking away from people's

00:15:53.280 | kind of sensual understanding.

00:15:55.460 | But I think that there's some rigor around that

00:15:57.120 | that helps people discover what's good for them

00:15:59.720 | by eliminating and then growing towards more intuitive food

00:16:03.340 | is a good evolution from that base.

00:16:06.180 | I love to cook for people.

00:16:09.880 | I love to pay attention to their way of being

00:16:14.560 | and read what they'd like to eat.

00:16:16.680 | And it's my purest way of love.

00:16:19.640 | And that's for everybody in my life.

00:16:21.660 | I actually love to cook for people I love.

00:16:24.080 | You know, I don't, I would struggle to be,

00:16:26.520 | you know, putting out food all the time.

00:16:28.000 | It's like something for me, it's a real act of caretaking.

00:16:30.920 | So I definitely have that in my makeup.

00:16:33.840 | And I definitely notice in times of like,

00:16:40.120 | of real stress, that's the piece that drops off, right?

00:16:43.760 | And then, and it's like, if I'm unable to care for myself,

00:16:45.960 | I have a hard time cooking.

00:16:47.320 | So it's, for me, it's very emotional.

00:16:48.840 | It's very connected to love.

00:16:50.240 | - And individualistic.

00:16:53.320 | So like focused on the particular individual.

00:16:56.060 | It's almost like a journey of understanding

00:16:58.480 | what that person is excited about

00:17:00.640 | in the landscape of flavors.

00:17:03.200 | Like figuring that person out what they like,

00:17:05.480 | what they love to eat.

00:17:07.200 | Yeah.

00:17:08.440 | - I see cooking from, I mostly cook for myself.

00:17:10.800 | So I see that as almost a,

00:17:12.560 | this is gonna be like the worst term,

00:17:15.160 | but like an act of self-love.

00:17:17.800 | This is gonna be clipped out.

00:17:22.000 | That like, it's almost an exploration

00:17:25.680 | of like what brings me joy.

00:17:28.000 | And it's surprising 'cause I usually don't share

00:17:29.800 | 'cause the things that bring me joy

00:17:32.680 | are the simplest ingredients.

00:17:34.160 | Like I'm one of those people,

00:17:36.420 | I don't know if you can psychoanalyze me

00:17:38.120 | 'cause you also like basic ingredients.

00:17:40.860 | I like a single ingredient, two ingredients,

00:17:43.640 | 'cause I feel like I can deeply appreciate

00:17:45.520 | the particular ingredient then.

00:17:47.360 | I get easily distracted.

00:17:49.460 | You know, people who are really good at listening to music,

00:17:51.360 | they can hear a piece of music

00:17:53.000 | and in their mind extract the different layers

00:17:55.720 | and enjoy different layers at a time.

00:17:57.660 | Like the bass, the drums,

00:17:59.560 | the different layering of the piano,

00:18:01.040 | the beats and all that kind of stuff.

00:18:02.780 | That's what it means to truly enjoy music,

00:18:04.880 | to listen to a piece over and over.

00:18:06.680 | Like almost like as a scholar.

00:18:08.600 | In that same way for food,

00:18:09.840 | I just can't do more than like three

00:18:11.600 | 'cause then it's just,

00:18:13.300 | I have to give in to the chaos of it, I guess.

00:18:15.880 | But when it's just the basic ingredients,

00:18:17.600 | like just meat or just the vegetable,

00:18:20.920 | like basic grilled without sauces, without any of that,

00:18:24.320 | that I've discovered is what brings me a lot of joy.

00:18:27.280 | But that's boring to a lot of people.

00:18:29.120 | So I usually have to be kind of private about that joy.

00:18:33.760 | So, but that's mine.

00:18:34.760 | So yeah, I figured that out.

00:18:36.000 | And I guess as a chef,

00:18:37.560 | you have to figure that out

00:18:38.960 | about everybody that you care for.

00:18:41.860 | - Well, also for you,

00:18:43.880 | you're very interested in things

00:18:46.880 | and interested in things being done well

00:18:50.120 | and appreciating them.

00:18:50.960 | So the single ingredient also allows you to control

00:18:53.720 | for perfection and cooking that,

00:18:55.400 | which is probably really appealing to you.

00:18:58.280 | And I think sometimes I see people

00:19:00.760 | also in the beginning of their journey of culinary

00:19:03.440 | trying to do too many things, right?

00:19:05.260 | So there's another piece too,

00:19:07.040 | that you'll notice if you recall last night,

00:19:09.400 | I grilled us a salad, right?

00:19:11.240 | And then I did all those pieces separately.

00:19:13.560 | And that's something in general to be really attentive of

00:19:16.240 | when you're building flavor,

00:19:17.720 | to make sure you pay attention to every piece separately.

00:19:21.680 | The idea that you can,

00:19:24.560 | okay, with a soup or something or a stew,

00:19:26.000 | there's workarounds,

00:19:27.560 | but like to make a great dish

00:19:29.320 | that's got four or five vegetables in it,

00:19:31.520 | cook them all separately to their optimal deliciousness

00:19:35.340 | and then combine them.

00:19:36.660 | So that's another way to approach that

00:19:38.300 | is that you may also be able to look

00:19:39.700 | at the different ingredients separately

00:19:41.380 | and still have that sense of like understanding of it.

00:19:44.540 | But there's too often that we're layering together

00:19:47.300 | like four or five things

00:19:49.300 | and then cooking them all at once

00:19:50.700 | and then surprised that it's not delicious.

00:19:52.540 | 'Cause you can't really optimize on multiple variables

00:19:56.060 | at the same time for peak awesomeness.

00:19:58.740 | And that's actually,

00:19:59.860 | the number one way you see this is roasting a whole chicken,

00:20:02.700 | which is a really difficult,

00:20:03.780 | it's the simplest dish,

00:20:04.620 | but it's very difficult

00:20:05.720 | because you have the breast meat,

00:20:06.900 | which is bigger chunks.

00:20:08.660 | They cook faster.

00:20:09.600 | You have the thighs and drums,

00:20:11.440 | which are smaller and they cook slower.

00:20:14.200 | To optimize that and pay attention to it

00:20:16.120 | and do it all right,

00:20:16.960 | there you're actually solving for different outcomes.

00:20:19.440 | So there's one example,

00:20:21.040 | but oftentimes food is less delicious

00:20:23.560 | with multiple ingredients at the start

00:20:25.360 | because we're not able to pay attention

00:20:27.420 | to how each one needs to end up.

00:20:29.760 | So there's a way to parse that apart

00:20:31.560 | and achieve a better outcome.

00:20:33.840 | - I don't know if you've seen "Jiro Dreams of Sushi."

00:20:36.240 | It's a documentary about, yeah.

00:20:38.240 | So there's an obsession that that particular,

00:20:43.200 | first of all, set of humans,

00:20:45.600 | but also the particular cuisine

00:20:50.360 | that focused on the basics of the ingredients.

00:20:52.620 | What do you think of that kind of trying to achieve mastery

00:20:56.600 | through repeating the making of the same meal

00:21:00.160 | over and over and over for decades?

00:21:02.880 | Like, do you find beauty in that journey towards mastery

00:21:06.240 | or do you think it should be always an exploration

00:21:09.600 | to where you're always trying things,

00:21:11.240 | you're always kind of injecting new flavors,

00:21:14.620 | new experiences, all that kind of stuff?

00:21:16.760 | - I think you have to decide on a palette.

00:21:19.520 | You know, if we're talking about an art,

00:21:21.000 | it's equivalent to saying, am I a sculptor or a painter?

00:21:23.640 | - Yeah.

00:21:24.480 | - And I think that the sushi lexicon thing,

00:21:26.600 | that's a very, very narrow, small canvas

00:21:28.920 | that you're painting on.

00:21:30.140 | And that is a beautiful road, right?

00:21:32.120 | There's a beauty and a perfection to that.

00:21:34.800 | It's like, I mean, there's many things culturally

00:21:36.720 | around that that you could extrapolate

00:21:38.480 | for specifically for Japan.

00:21:40.560 | But I encourage people on the journey in food

00:21:44.440 | to choose like kind of a language

00:21:47.520 | that they're working within.

00:21:49.320 | And if you wanna step out of that occasionally

00:21:51.320 | and have one or two dishes,

00:21:52.980 | but if you wanna get mastery with food,

00:21:55.280 | you probably aren't gonna be able to get more than say,

00:21:58.480 | 20 ingredients that you use regularly

00:22:00.600 | that you really understand.

00:22:02.420 | And so we often see, you know, I see the American pantry,

00:22:06.600 | it's got tons of sauces and tons of spices

00:22:08.720 | and tons of spice blends.

00:22:10.560 | And then really people only use just a couple of things.

00:22:13.880 | And the idea that you can sort of splash out

00:22:15.600 | and do Korean one night and then tacos the next night,

00:22:17.760 | you can absolutely, but to get in a regular cadence

00:22:20.680 | of specific ingredients,

00:22:21.640 | you're probably gonna get more mastery with that sooner.

00:22:24.880 | And I think as much as you can do to get an understanding

00:22:28.380 | of the basics around salt and acid

00:22:30.840 | and understand your palate,

00:22:31.880 | like for me, it's lemon and usually sherry vinegar, right?

00:22:34.540 | So that's my acid palate.

00:22:35.880 | And my fat palates, you know, suet and butter, olive oil.

00:22:39.180 | So you can sort of choose your language,

00:22:40.780 | what you're painting with,

00:22:42.340 | but I wouldn't splash out and say, do I use sesame oil?

00:22:44.380 | Yeah, every once in a while,

00:22:45.560 | but that's not part of my base palate, right?

00:22:48.480 | - Can you say again what your fat palate is?

00:22:50.840 | - It'd be butter, suet and olive oil.

00:22:53.720 | - And olive oil, so not, why olive oil?

00:22:56.680 | Is it your routine?

00:22:58.320 | - I like the flavor for finish

00:22:59.840 | because of the bitterness that it adds.

00:23:02.200 | So I like the bitter and acid contrast on meat

00:23:05.760 | and vegetables, which is mostly what I eat.

00:23:07.680 | And so I love that way that the bitterness

00:23:11.040 | and astringency complements

00:23:12.840 | and allows the flavors to come out.

00:23:14.320 | - What do you think about coconut oil?

00:23:16.240 | I recently discovered that there's a, I don't know,

00:23:19.760 | there's a sweetness or there's something to it

00:23:21.920 | that I really enjoy, maybe because it's new.

00:23:26.920 | It's good with heat.

00:23:28.480 | I really love it for some reason.

00:23:31.040 | As a chef, do you ever try it?

00:23:33.720 | What do you think about it?

00:23:34.560 | - I like it in coffee.

00:23:35.640 | Like I like it as a, like a treat a little bit.

00:23:37.960 | I find the flavor a little bit challenging in foods.

00:23:41.400 | I also find that it's difficult

00:23:45.160 | on the quality of that ingredient.

00:23:48.160 | So I've found often that I buy a high quality coconut oil

00:23:51.280 | and there's rancidity in it.

00:23:53.120 | And I don't totally know why.

00:23:54.160 | I think it's just the cold chain

00:23:55.480 | and how that product's packaged.

00:23:57.280 | So I've had some issues with product quality in that.

00:24:00.080 | But for me, it's a little bit too much sweetness

00:24:03.120 | in my foods.

00:24:04.520 | But then again, I don't cook in like a Southeast Asian palate.

00:24:07.080 | I try to not have much sweetness in my foods in general.

00:24:09.000 | So I, just because of the palate that I like to cook with.

00:24:12.080 | So for me, coconut's got a little bit too much

00:24:14.120 | of those high notes and earthiness,

00:24:15.960 | which is a nice combination, but it's more like a treat.

00:24:18.360 | - Yeah, it is almost like a treat.

00:24:19.680 | It has a flavor of its own that almost stands on its own.

00:24:23.600 | Like I could probably just eat coconut.

00:24:26.080 | (laughs)

00:24:27.360 | That's probably the only oil I could enjoy by itself.

00:24:29.520 | It sounds weird to say, but it feels like fat

00:24:32.440 | is often a thing that enriches the flavor of something else.

00:24:35.560 | Coconut can almost stand on its own.

00:24:37.400 | - You might also be responding to that

00:24:39.040 | it's a complex flavor.

00:24:40.480 | - Right.

00:24:41.320 | - So there's also, there's an analogous,

00:24:44.440 | you know, if you look at butter, for example,

00:24:46.600 | a lot of the butter that we eat in the US

00:24:48.440 | is just sweet cream butter.

00:24:50.320 | It's not cultured.

00:24:51.440 | If you explore like a cultured fermented butter,

00:24:55.480 | maybe a grass milk, grass fed and finished butter,

00:24:58.200 | you're gonna get a ton more complexity.

00:25:00.560 | And so you may also just be responding

00:25:02.800 | to having fats with more flavor,

00:25:05.080 | which is the journey in the US

00:25:09.160 | has been towards refined foods that are very neutral.

00:25:12.840 | And then you have to combine more of them

00:25:14.720 | to make things taste like things.

00:25:16.440 | And so if you're coming from a background

00:25:20.040 | of using mostly just generic butter,

00:25:22.080 | or let's say canola oil to cook with,

00:25:23.680 | those are very neutral oils.

00:25:25.340 | So you can also take some of your favorite fats

00:25:27.760 | and look for versions of them that are more flavorful.

00:25:30.100 | I mean, I love olive oil as a treat in a spoon.

00:25:33.400 | - Really?

00:25:34.240 | - Like a good California extra virgin olive oil.

00:25:35.480 | I'll just like have it as,

00:25:36.320 | I'll eat a piece of butter as a treat.

00:25:37.840 | - Yeah.

00:25:38.680 | - That's like, or butter with salt on it.

00:25:40.040 | Like good fats can, all of them can be,

00:25:43.200 | if they're minimally processed and they're fabulous,

00:25:46.560 | and it's so delicious, right?

00:25:47.800 | But there are things that you have to like look for

00:25:50.040 | a version of them that's got that full palette of flavor.

00:25:53.160 | - Well, for me also,

00:25:54.000 | the flavors are inextricably tied to the memories

00:25:57.720 | I've had with those flavors.

00:25:58.760 | So for better or worse,

00:26:01.000 | back when I used to eat a lot of ice cream,

00:26:04.240 | I, for some reason,

00:26:05.080 | had a lot of pleasant experience with coconut ice cream.

00:26:07.480 | So that particular flavor just permeates throughout my life.

00:26:11.280 | Now, like I'm stuck with it for better or worse

00:26:13.840 | as a flavor that brings up pleasant memories.

00:26:17.480 | And as I have a few such flavors,

00:26:19.640 | I have such relationship with all kinds of meat too.

00:26:22.600 | Like it's just so many pleasant memories and that's it.

00:26:26.160 | Like you're almost tasting the memories.

00:26:28.360 | - Yeah.

00:26:29.200 | - And that there's no way to separate the flavor

00:26:33.200 | from the memories, I suppose.

00:26:34.600 | And that's a powerful thing.

00:26:35.960 | What's your favorite meal to cook?

00:26:37.660 | - I'll roast a couple of chickens

00:26:41.480 | and then I'll poach them, like I'll boil them

00:26:44.800 | and let it cool down.

00:26:45.640 | It's a complicated one.

00:26:47.360 | I'll let them cool down.

00:26:48.840 | I'll pull all the meat off,

00:26:49.800 | put the bones back into the pot

00:26:51.760 | and then cook that for like three or four hours

00:26:55.000 | and then add in like shiitake mushrooms

00:26:57.200 | and all the chicken meat.

00:26:58.840 | And I'll throw in a bottle of white wine

00:27:01.280 | into the stock as well, a bunch of thyme and garlic.

00:27:04.680 | And I love it because it's the way the house smells.

00:27:09.680 | It's very laborious.

00:27:11.000 | It's soothing for me to spend time picking apart meat

00:27:14.040 | and chopping things up.

00:27:14.940 | There's like a lot of manuality around it.

00:27:17.680 | So I'd say from a personal, like, I mean,

00:27:19.400 | I love grilling a steak and doing those things as well,

00:27:21.080 | but there's something about making a stock from scratch

00:27:24.600 | and the way it smells, the way I feel,

00:27:26.800 | the time it takes, the kind of checking in on it

00:27:29.800 | that I really, really love.

00:27:31.400 | There's many things that I love to make

00:27:33.260 | that I don't even love to eat.

00:27:35.440 | I think you see this a lot in like baking and bakers,

00:27:38.200 | people who bake a ton and they love the process of it,

00:27:40.920 | even if they don't eat that many baked goods.

00:27:42.680 | So anything for me that's really like enjoyable

00:27:45.440 | is typically things like making cinnamon buns.

00:27:47.280 | I don't eat very many cinnamon buns,

00:27:48.640 | but I love making them because it takes all the sort

00:27:51.120 | of like futzing around and taking your time

00:27:53.200 | and watching it and the way it smells,

00:27:55.080 | the way the house smells, all of that stuff is like,

00:27:57.920 | it's like almost like a meditative exercise for me.

00:28:01.400 | - Is there a science, is there an art to cooking meat well

00:28:04.500 | and the different kinds of meats?

00:28:06.000 | Is there something you can convert into words

00:28:08.300 | in to say ideas, how to bring out the best of it

00:28:14.520 | out of what particular meat,

00:28:17.460 | whatever steak we're talking about,

00:28:18.500 | whatever beef we're talking about,

00:28:20.400 | is there something that can be said?

00:28:21.840 | - The basic approach to cooking any type of meat

00:28:26.480 | beyond the artistry of it is pretty scientific

00:28:30.540 | and it's what type of muscle is it in the animal

00:28:35.180 | and what's the surface area to volume ratio?

00:28:37.340 | Okay, so let's look at those two questions.

00:28:40.780 | So the first piece is what's the type of muscle

00:28:44.120 | in the animal, what's the functionality?

00:28:46.340 | You don't necessarily need to know that to evaluate it,

00:28:49.200 | but you need to understand, is it a tender muscle

00:28:51.560 | that's not used very frequently in the animal

00:28:53.680 | or is it a big load bearing muscle

00:28:55.240 | that gets a lot of action like the cheek, right?

00:28:57.380 | Or the shin or those pieces.

00:29:00.360 | The muscles like those along the spinal cord

00:29:04.200 | that make up rib eyes and New York steaks and things,

00:29:06.560 | those aren't very exercised.

00:29:08.200 | They're right next to the spinal cord.

00:29:10.160 | Spinal cord's doing most of the work there.

00:29:11.700 | They're kind of like stabilizing muscles

00:29:13.720 | around this big functional piece

00:29:15.440 | of skeletal structure in the animal.

00:29:18.400 | Other muscles like the ones around the diaphragm

00:29:21.680 | with the flat iron steaks and skirt steaks and things,

00:29:23.680 | those are really functional muscles

00:29:25.600 | that are doing a ton and moving.

00:29:27.320 | And if they're moving a lot,

00:29:29.240 | what happens?

00:29:30.360 | Well, functionally, they've got lots of muscle sheaths

00:29:34.060 | because muscles that move frequently

00:29:35.980 | have to do a lot of like complex contraction.

00:29:39.320 | That's why there's, in the cheek, for example,

00:29:42.980 | there's tons of visible fiber

00:29:44.980 | of like collagenous connective tissue.

00:29:47.280 | That connective tissue is everything in how the meat cooks

00:29:53.380 | because connective tissue doesn't respond to high heat

00:29:57.700 | with becoming more tender.

00:29:59.240 | Muscles do, right?

00:30:00.220 | They can get a sear on them.

00:30:01.220 | You can cut them and eat them.

00:30:02.340 | The collagenous tissue will glom up and get really tough.

00:30:05.740 | So you either have to liquefy it

00:30:07.360 | with really low, slow heat with moisture, right?

00:30:11.860 | Or you have to barely cook it.

00:30:13.660 | And so that's the major piece.

00:30:16.060 | So that's the question of like,

00:30:16.880 | why wouldn't you just throw a brisket on the grill?

00:30:19.220 | Okay, it's not about the fat.

00:30:20.420 | You can cut the fat out.

00:30:21.460 | The reason you're not gonna throw a brisket on the grill

00:30:23.300 | and cook it hot and fast

00:30:24.140 | is it's got too much collagenous connective tissue in it.

00:30:26.820 | Those are these giant muscles that have all this collagen

00:30:29.740 | and these fibers and tendons in them effectively.

00:30:32.060 | So you're never gonna be able to just cook that up hot fast.

00:30:35.260 | So that's the first piece.

00:30:36.980 | It's like, where's this muscle

00:30:38.700 | in the architecture of the animal?

00:30:40.480 | And then what does that mean

00:30:42.180 | for what's going on in the muscle?

00:30:43.860 | And that's actually more important than fat content.

00:30:48.580 | We get really kind of,

00:30:49.780 | we pay a lot of attention to fat content in muscles.

00:30:52.460 | You can make a steak tender

00:30:53.620 | if it doesn't have a ton of fat in it.

00:30:54.940 | It actually has more to do

00:30:55.980 | if there's collagenous and connective tissue in it.

00:30:58.760 | That's fascinating.

00:31:00.700 | I never even thought about that.

00:31:01.620 | I just, I thought it kind of universe,

00:31:05.900 | I mean, adds to the texture of the meat,

00:31:08.660 | the chewiness of the meat.

00:31:10.380 | But you're saying it's also adds to how heat,

00:31:14.300 | how it reacts to heat,

00:31:15.320 | how the entirety of the meat reacts to heat.

00:31:17.820 | And the fat is not as important to that

00:31:20.060 | as the collagen.

00:31:21.180 | The fat will make the flavor more delicious, right?

00:31:23.420 | Like it'll add unctuousness and mouthfeel

00:31:25.700 | and things like that.

00:31:26.540 | But all the connective tissue in meat,

00:31:29.200 | and in some of the cuts,

00:31:30.220 | like that we ate a skirt steak last night,

00:31:31.800 | you could see a web of that collagen sheath on the outside.

00:31:35.460 | On a rib eye, that same collagen sheath is this big.

00:31:37.860 | There's only one that goes around the outside.

00:31:39.340 | Okay, 'cause that's just that muscle,

00:31:40.820 | there's one large muscle fiber.

00:31:42.880 | So that specific, it's a myelin sheath, right?

00:31:46.580 | That material needs moisture

00:31:48.860 | and low and slow heat to become tender.

00:31:51.520 | The other side of that is that

00:31:52.820 | when it becomes tender, it liquefies

00:31:54.980 | and it adds all this beautiful gelatinous consistency.

00:31:58.540 | That's what bone broth is.

00:31:59.660 | That's why like a slow cooked pork shoulder is so delicious.

00:32:03.980 | It's not that it's full of all that fat.

00:32:05.780 | That fat's also great,

00:32:06.620 | but a lot of that mouthfeel comes from that really

00:32:09.560 | beautiful dissolved collagen.

00:32:12.580 | So when you're looking at like,

00:32:13.420 | how do I understand how I'm gonna cook a piece of meat?

00:32:15.660 | That first fork in the road is

00:32:17.580 | how is this gonna respond to heat?

00:32:20.180 | And what's the appropriate cooking technique?

00:32:23.300 | Then the second piece is that surface area to volume ratio.

00:32:27.360 | And that's important because the heat is gonna impact

00:32:30.560 | the meat through the surfaces of the meat

00:32:32.960 | that are in contact with the heat.

00:32:34.680 | So if I have a steak that's three inches thick,

00:32:40.780 | I'm gonna cook it extremely differently

00:32:42.660 | from a steak that's a half inch thick

00:32:45.740 | or three quarters of an inch thick.

00:32:47.340 | And that's the major, and that's the truth.

00:32:49.260 | If I have a piece of pork shoulder that's cut into cubes

00:32:52.900 | versus having a whole pork shoulder,

00:32:54.900 | that's surface area to volume ratio.

00:32:56.500 | That's gonna totally change how I cook it.

00:32:59.140 | And same things like pot roast and a beef stew

00:33:02.720 | would be the same cut of meat, right?

00:33:04.700 | But how I cook them is gonna change

00:33:06.480 | based on the surface area to volume.

00:33:07.780 | 'Cause you've gotta let moisture and heat work its way

00:33:10.660 | into the center of the meat.

00:33:12.060 | And that's gonna be determined by the amount of surface

00:33:14.520 | of the meat that's in contact with whatever

00:33:16.380 | cooking liquid or heat you've got.

00:33:18.120 | - Is there different sources of heat to play with?

00:33:20.700 | Like a big flame versus a small,

00:33:24.000 | or maybe even like almost no flame,

00:33:26.780 | like over coals, all that kind of stuff.

00:33:28.340 | Is there some science to the source of heat

00:33:31.840 | in how it plays with the meat?

00:33:33.720 | - Well, there's indirect heat and direct heat.

00:33:36.000 | And that really is mostly about temperature

00:33:40.000 | in more than actual, I mean,

00:33:41.800 | smoke is important as well that can permeate,

00:33:44.360 | but really the smoke doesn't go into the center

00:33:46.160 | of most cuts that you barbecue.

00:33:47.280 | It'll come in like a smoke ring.

00:33:48.840 | It's maximum like half an inch on the outside,

00:33:52.720 | maybe a little bit deeper on a really long, slow cook.

00:33:55.120 | So, but the smoke that does create a ton of flavor

00:33:58.800 | on the surface of the meat.

00:34:00.360 | But that's so the indirect allows you to have

00:34:02.840 | smoke contacting it and then a very,

00:34:04.640 | very low and slow heat.

00:34:06.240 | And what that does is indirect heat

00:34:09.680 | will be low and slow enough that the center of the meat

00:34:14.520 | will get warm at the same time as the exterior of the meat.

00:34:17.560 | And it'll all cook equally and all get equally tender.

00:34:21.300 | If you go very hot and fast,

00:34:23.440 | you risk the interior of the meat, not getting, right?

00:34:26.560 | You kind of create a shell on it

00:34:28.840 | and you slow down the interior of the meat,

00:34:30.680 | which you actually want to do with something like a steak

00:34:32.880 | where you want to keep it rare on the inside.

00:34:35.360 | So it's really indirect versus direct.

00:34:37.360 | Then once you get into direct heat, right?

00:34:39.400 | Look at in that category, there's wood, charcoal, gas,

00:34:43.780 | right? That's about it.

00:34:44.920 | And those are meaningfully different.

00:34:47.400 | They're meaningfully different.

00:34:48.680 | Charcoal and wood, that's more of,

00:34:50.760 | there's more poetry in wood.

00:34:52.360 | There's a little bit more flavor,

00:34:54.280 | not functionally very different,

00:34:56.080 | but gas versus charcoal wood is very different.

00:34:59.220 | And that's because of the actual scent of the cook, right?

00:35:03.200 | The scent of the flavor.

00:35:04.520 | And then there's, I think, an evenness of heat distribution

00:35:09.260 | that comes off of charcoal that's different from gas,

00:35:11.960 | because no matter how awesome your gas grill is,

00:35:13.780 | you do have hotter and cooler spots.

00:35:16.340 | So gas grills are typically,

00:35:17.980 | you can kind of control for that

00:35:19.420 | if you just are going really hot and fast,

00:35:21.580 | which is why gas grills are fine

00:35:22.940 | if you're just like throwing that steak on,

00:35:24.460 | get a hard sear on it, those burgers, put a crust on it.

00:35:26.620 | Gas is fabulous for that.

00:35:27.740 | It's perfect.

00:35:28.740 | When you're doing things that do better

00:35:30.740 | with a low and slow cook,

00:35:33.220 | like let's say a whole tenderloin or chicken thigh,

00:35:36.540 | that's going to be a little bit less elegant on gas

00:35:39.980 | than on charcoal versus wood.

00:35:41.540 | So when you have more kind of nuance in the low, slow cook

00:35:44.960 | over the natural fuels.

00:35:46.600 | - Talking about like smoke and flame

00:35:48.960 | and charcoal versus gas,

00:35:50.700 | it also adds to the experience and the smell

00:35:54.720 | and the whole thing of the cooking

00:35:57.040 | versus just like the taste it creates.

00:36:00.040 | There's a certain experience to like

00:36:01.680 | when there's a bit of smoke,

00:36:03.160 | maybe, I don't know what the chemistry of it is,

00:36:04.680 | but I feel like with smoke,

00:36:05.960 | the smell is distributed more effectively.

00:36:08.000 | I don't know if that's true,

00:36:08.840 | but there's a smell and a visual aspect to the experience

00:36:13.840 | that's almost enriched with a bit of smoke

00:36:16.040 | or like an open flame.

00:36:19.040 | Like if you can see the flame, there's magic to that.

00:36:21.600 | And it goes to the experience piece

00:36:23.400 | that we were talking about.

00:36:24.320 | - We were talking exactly about that,

00:36:26.040 | like the nuance and the beauty of like that long, slow cook

00:36:29.560 | and your house smelling like something.

00:36:31.280 | Why do people freak out about barbecue?

00:36:33.320 | - Yeah. (laughs)

00:36:34.280 | - Why?

00:36:35.120 | 'Cause you go in and it smells bomb.

00:36:36.520 | It smells so good.

00:36:38.200 | It smells like heaven, right?

00:36:39.720 | It smells fatty and delicious and the smells everywhere

00:36:42.960 | and everyone's smelling the same smell.

00:36:44.600 | So there's like this collective experience.

00:36:46.920 | It's incredible.

00:36:48.040 | That's, I mean, I think that's why barbecue

00:36:50.040 | is so sticky for people.

00:36:52.160 | - Yeah. - It's like so yummy

00:36:53.760 | and you get this huge like anticipatory thing about it.

00:36:56.640 | It's like, 'cause it smells incredible.

00:36:58.760 | - What was that incredible grill that we used yesterday?

00:37:00.840 | What is that about?

00:37:01.680 | - That's called a Sea Island Forge.

00:37:03.280 | It's a wood fire grill that's inspired

00:37:05.680 | by like a South American style of cooking.

00:37:07.720 | So it's like, it's big.

00:37:08.840 | It has also the things with the crank

00:37:11.520 | that allows you to control the distance from the flame.

00:37:14.000 | It's awesome.

00:37:14.840 | - That's really key with the wood fire.

00:37:15.880 | So when we evolved from cooking over wood to charcoal,

00:37:20.400 | right, when that became more popular,

00:37:23.000 | the reason that we did that is that allowed us

00:37:25.320 | to skip the whole part of making our own charcoal, right?

00:37:28.680 | So when you're cooking over wood,

00:37:29.960 | all you're doing is making your own charcoal.

00:37:32.120 | You don't ever cook over wood with the red fire.

00:37:34.880 | Like we don't like throw a steak on

00:37:36.760 | when the flames are orange and leaping up

00:37:38.560 | because you're just gonna get, you know,

00:37:40.160 | carbons like char all over your meat.

00:37:42.480 | So when you're cooking over wood,

00:37:44.000 | you first cook down the wood,

00:37:45.520 | you create the coal base, the natural coal base,

00:37:48.240 | and then you cook over that.

00:37:49.400 | So you saw yesterday, I built my fire,

00:37:50.960 | I let it burn down, added some fresh wood

00:37:52.680 | so I could reinforce my coals with new coals coming in,

00:37:56.160 | but then I was actually cooking over the embers.

00:37:59.120 | You shorten that cycle with charcoal.

00:38:02.920 | It's more efficient.

00:38:04.360 | But what you lose is that whole cycle of, you know,

00:38:07.400 | that really beautiful experience of smelling.

00:38:10.520 | Now, if you're cooking on a Traeger,

00:38:12.080 | you're gonna get awesome smoke smell.

00:38:13.480 | You know, like there's plenty of ways to do this.

00:38:15.800 | It doesn't always have to be wood fire.

00:38:17.000 | And I love all the different ways, right?

00:38:19.800 | But I really like the experience of the campfire.

00:38:23.480 | And I love that kind of just like sitting by it,

00:38:25.280 | building it, having to take the time,

00:38:26.760 | I like building the fire, going inside,

00:38:28.600 | preparing all my meats, bringing them out, cooking them.

00:38:31.160 | That whole experience start to finish

00:38:33.080 | is really just like something that it's my favorite.

00:38:36.160 | It's my favorite way to spend time, you know?

00:38:38.640 | So I think, and why is that?

00:38:40.080 | Is the food that different than cooking it

00:38:41.720 | in a more conventional grill?

00:38:43.480 | Probably not, you know, like in a pure experience,

00:38:46.000 | but I think the actual experience is super memorable

00:38:48.880 | because you are outside, you are slowing your roll,

00:38:51.320 | you're enjoying this, you know, you're just taking in,

00:38:54.640 | you're watching, you're anticipating.

00:38:56.680 | I love that whole experience.

00:38:58.760 | - Does the origin of the meat itself make a difference?

00:39:03.600 | So we're here at Balcampo Farms,

00:39:05.600 | and maybe you could talk about what your vision,

00:39:10.200 | your dream is in terms of like food,

00:39:14.560 | in terms of where food comes from,

00:39:16.800 | where meat comes from, but food broadly,

00:39:19.120 | and how that affects the entirety of the culinary journey.

00:39:23.320 | - On the question of where does it come from

00:39:27.360 | and does that matter, I'd say the way that meat is raised

00:39:31.800 | is massively important for flavor and for how it cooks.

00:39:35.560 | I think most cooks who try cooking grass-fed

00:39:41.440 | versus corn-fed, that's the first moment

00:39:44.480 | where they realize that, right?

00:39:45.880 | Where corn-fed meat cooks much more slowly,

00:39:48.920 | it's got bigger veins of fat that slow the heat transfer

00:39:53.040 | throughout the muscle of the animal,

00:39:55.000 | compared to grass-fed, which is leaner,

00:39:56.560 | heat moves through it more quickly,

00:39:58.280 | those steaks will cook much, much faster.

00:40:00.240 | So there's very kind of technical reasons

00:40:02.920 | why how meat is raised that we're aware of.

00:40:07.240 | And there's other things that I've noticed,

00:40:09.600 | like that slower growing poultry

00:40:13.600 | has a very, very different musculature and fiber to it

00:40:16.760 | than fast growing poultry, that's confinement animals.

00:40:19.960 | It's just, it has to do with the way

00:40:21.800 | that the muscles are built.

00:40:22.800 | They tend to be finer and thinner and more tender,

00:40:26.040 | and a little bit more susceptible to heat.

00:40:28.000 | So the character of the meat's radically different.

00:40:32.240 | It's also much more flavorful

00:40:34.000 | when it's grown more naturally.

00:40:35.680 | And I think some of the reliance in the US

00:40:39.240 | on like sugary sauces and lots of salts

00:40:42.200 | and flavors and things, like that's actually based

00:40:45.840 | on having the broadly available meat out there

00:40:50.000 | is pretty low on flavor.

00:40:51.640 | And so we're adding in a lot to compensate for that.

00:40:54.400 | So to your point of like enjoying things very simply

00:40:57.880 | and with like salt and nothing else,

00:41:01.600 | like the more flavorful that product is,

00:41:03.600 | I think the more people will find that enjoyable.

00:41:06.560 | - Let's paint a vision.

00:41:08.280 | I mean, you're a visionary.

00:41:09.440 | You have a vision to have basically meat in every store

00:41:14.440 | that comes from a farm like Belcampo

00:41:19.160 | that's basically doing regenerative farming.

00:41:22.320 | How do we get there?

00:41:24.160 | - It's about a network of smaller producers

00:41:27.400 | working together with shared values.

00:41:31.200 | And it's true that there's a limit on regenerative farming

00:41:36.200 | in that it requires more human knowledge.

00:41:40.920 | So regenerative farming is more difficult to scale

00:41:45.440 | in a single operation.

00:41:46.960 | It'd be really challenging to have a regenerative farm

00:41:48.880 | that was like 200,000 acres

00:41:50.960 | because of the amount of manpower needed to pay attention.

00:41:54.200 | - Can you first, and I apologize to interrupt,

00:41:56.240 | but can you say what is regenerative farming?

00:41:59.520 | - Sure.

00:42:00.560 | So if you're looking at scaling regenerative farming,

00:42:05.560 | it's a traditional system of agriculture.

00:42:09.240 | Regenerative farming is how we used to farm.

00:42:11.440 | We used to farm with an eye towards the longterm.

00:42:16.360 | You might be on the Friedman farm

00:42:19.680 | thinking about your heirs five generations from now

00:42:23.360 | farming that same land.

00:42:25.200 | Are you gonna leave that land nutritionally empty?

00:42:28.640 | - No, it's a longterm thinking.

00:42:31.240 | - Also in traditional ag,

00:42:33.480 | you don't have inputs that are very convenient.

00:42:36.200 | You can put some chicken manure on,

00:42:38.080 | but you can't spray or dump something

00:42:41.320 | that massively increases the growing potential of the land.

00:42:47.640 | That was not available until the past 60 years.

00:42:51.720 | So regenerative agriculture is an approach to farming

00:42:56.720 | where you're increasing soil fertility through your farming.

00:43:00.840 | You increase soil fertility by feeding the soil.

00:43:06.080 | You feed the soil through carbon.

00:43:08.520 | That's why regenerative farming

00:43:11.280 | is better for the environment.

00:43:12.360 | It sequesters carbon and puts carbon into the soil.

00:43:16.520 | Now it's interesting.

00:43:18.200 | Plants need carbon and put it into the soil

00:43:22.120 | when they're going through growth.

00:43:23.880 | So if you have a beautiful field of grass

00:43:27.120 | that's just waving in the wind,

00:43:28.600 | that's not sequestering as much carbon

00:43:30.720 | as plants that have been damaged and are regrowing.

00:43:34.600 | Plants that have been damaged and are regrowing

00:43:36.440 | are repairing and they're doing that by drawing down carbon

00:43:40.360 | as one of the nutrients that feeds them.

00:43:43.120 | To damage the plants effectively,

00:43:45.320 | that's what we're doing with regenerative grazing.

00:43:47.840 | So the cows or lambs or whatever out there,

00:43:53.680 | they're eating and taking the grass down

00:43:57.560 | and that then cause a regrowth cycle that sequesters carbon.

00:44:01.680 | There's a limit to it.

00:44:02.600 | There's an edge.

00:44:03.440 | 'Cause if those plants are so damaged

00:44:05.800 | that they can't regrow, then it turns into a dirt patch

00:44:08.600 | and that doesn't sequester any carbon.

00:44:10.200 | So it's a balance.

00:44:11.200 | How do you find that balance?

00:44:13.280 | That has to do with the frequency and the scale

00:44:16.400 | of the grazing, essentially?

00:44:17.960 | Exactly.

00:44:19.440 | And so you have to find the right balance

00:44:20.840 | and that connects to both the grass.

00:44:24.320 | I mean, is the ultimately, the focus here

00:44:27.080 | is on the life cycle of whatever is grazing,

00:44:30.080 | whether it's cows or lambs or so on?

00:44:32.760 | That's why the scalability question.

00:44:34.520 | So all that stuff that I just talked about,

00:44:37.240 | like think about all the actions that that requires.

00:44:39.760 | Somebody's out there looking and paying attention

00:44:42.520 | and understanding how far the grass is,

00:44:45.560 | remembering what happened in that field last year.

00:44:48.000 | There's a huge human intelligence need

00:44:50.400 | and human kind of availability of attention.

00:44:55.400 | Now, industrial farming has done a great job

00:44:58.840 | at de-skilling agriculture.

00:45:00.860 | Industrial farming has taken agriculture

00:45:05.040 | from being art science to being entry-level employment.

00:45:11.560 | So that's the limiting factor on regen

00:45:13.720 | and that's why I think--

00:45:14.560 | It's a human intelligence piece.

00:45:15.880 | Exactly.

00:45:16.800 | I gotta ask, I don't know if you think

00:45:18.680 | about this kind of stuff.

00:45:19.540 | I mentioned to you offline that I spent a bit of time

00:45:22.200 | with some robots and Boston Dynamics.

00:45:24.120 | Do you think there's a way to use artificial intelligence

00:45:26.720 | to help the data collection?

00:45:29.120 | So automating some of the things that makes humans special,

00:45:33.840 | make some of that decision, some of that memory

00:45:35.760 | that's then utilized, converted into knowledge

00:45:37.680 | to make decisions about the crops and so on.

00:45:40.000 | Is there a way AI can help, do you think?

00:45:42.560 | Totally.

00:45:43.520 | I mean, that would be incredible.

00:45:45.840 | That's one of the ingredients that could help

00:45:47.680 | with the regenerative farming.

00:45:48.520 | There's a number of discrete decision points

00:45:50.940 | that could completely be automated as well

00:45:54.720 | in order to supplement and work with somebody,

00:45:56.700 | like a farmer in managing it,

00:45:58.680 | about the performance on land.

00:46:01.280 | And a bit of that's being done right now

00:46:02.640 | with some aerial mapping,

00:46:04.800 | but that type of AI would be huge in this.

00:46:07.920 | I mean, there's estimates that if the damaged

00:46:11.800 | and underutilized rangeland in the world

00:46:14.120 | was converted to regenerative agriculture

00:46:15.880 | at somewhere between like 20 and 40% of the world's carbon

00:46:19.320 | could be sequestered.

00:46:20.680 | So there's a huge potential.

00:46:22.520 | The problem is cultural.

00:46:24.860 | We've like lost the generational thread of knowledge

00:46:29.700 | about how to do this.

00:46:30.760 | It's kind of been two generations

00:46:31.920 | that haven't farmed this way.

00:46:34.160 | Also, the science around it is limited

00:46:38.040 | by the scale and longevity.

00:46:40.480 | So the data collection around regenerative farming

00:46:43.100 | is also limited by the fact that it's kind of piecemeal.

00:46:46.000 | There's small operations that are doing it.

00:46:48.080 | They're learning and developing as they go,

00:46:50.200 | and they haven't been documenting it

00:46:51.680 | and doing it for too long.

00:46:53.500 | Is the ethical treatment of animals

00:46:55.840 | a part of regenerative farming?

00:46:58.800 | So in the way you do things at Balcampo,

00:47:01.640 | that's a huge part.

00:47:03.880 | Is that necessarily part of the life cycle?

00:47:05.720 | So like the things that you're trying to measure

00:47:08.120 | is like the way, like not damaging the land too much,

00:47:13.120 | make sure that the land is constantly healthy

00:47:17.160 | and is producing, and then the grazing process,

00:47:20.400 | and also the carbon piece,

00:47:22.360 | the fact that it's like carbon neutral

00:47:24.840 | or something like that.

00:47:25.800 | I mean, are all of those pieces of the regenerative farming,

00:47:28.800 | or is this an extra part to your vision

00:47:31.520 | that you're thinking about?

00:47:32.360 | I think all implicit and regenerative.

00:47:34.160 | I call it out separately because we are certified humane,

00:47:37.440 | which is another layer of welfare

00:47:38.880 | that has to do with density and a couple other things.

00:47:41.600 | But regenerative, I mean, think about it.

00:47:44.080 | If you're a cow and you're in a regenerative operation

00:47:46.020 | where the whole life cycle of the pasture

00:47:49.120 | means that you only eat the top six inches of the grass,

00:47:52.520 | and then when there's whatever, a couple inches left,

00:47:54.480 | then that field is left dormant.

00:47:56.360 | That's a better experience, right?

00:47:58.040 | So just think about it kind of functionally that way.

00:48:00.120 | Well, grazing period is a better experience, right?

00:48:02.400 | Yeah.

00:48:03.240 | And that's not what's done in,

00:48:05.560 | I mean, that's the grass-fed piece, right?

00:48:07.160 | That's the other piece with,

00:48:08.560 | certified organic's amazing.

00:48:12.320 | There's plenty of certifications that,

00:48:15.440 | grass-fed and finished is also great,

00:48:17.520 | but there are workarounds for those.

00:48:19.200 | You can have certified organic feedlots.

00:48:21.360 | You can have grass-fed and finished,

00:48:22.800 | which is an animal-fed grass seed pellet.

00:48:25.920 | Those aren't things that we do here, right?

00:48:29.040 | And regenerative captures that,

00:48:30.840 | because if you're, it's like anything,

00:48:32.720 | you're isolating these very specific certifications,

00:48:35.600 | it doesn't have a holistic approach.

00:48:37.640 | Regenerative though, unfortunately, isn't certified yet.

00:48:40.260 | We've gotten USDA approval to use that word

00:48:42.800 | based on our carbon sequestration data,

00:48:45.160 | but it's not a regulated term.

00:48:47.820 | So that's kind of the mix right now

00:48:49.580 | is to figure out how to document it.

00:48:51.680 | And it's not totally clear what it means

00:48:53.800 | like for pigs and chickens, which are omnivores.

00:48:56.740 | It's very clear for ruminants,

00:48:58.200 | which are animals that have a rumen that eat grass.

00:49:01.080 | For omnivores, which is like what we are,

00:49:03.560 | they eat primarily grain in farming operations,

00:49:06.000 | and that's a little bit more complex.

00:49:07.760 | So it's kind of a moving landscape,

00:49:09.400 | but regenerative as a word is the better definition

00:49:13.840 | of the whole lifecycle approach

00:49:15.360 | of letting animals and nature work together.

00:49:18.120 | - Is it true that it's possible to have a farm

00:49:20.920 | that doesn't produce, sort of is carbon neutral?

00:49:25.320 | - We have been third party verified

00:49:28.560 | to be carbon impact negative.

00:49:31.120 | So Belcampo's 25,000 acres and the animals here,

00:49:34.380 | all of the carbon, including from our shipping

00:49:38.680 | on our mail order, is all offset

00:49:40.940 | by the amount of grazing that's happening.

00:49:43.360 | Also that encompasses our partner farms.

00:49:45.160 | We buy a number of live animals in from other partner farms.

00:49:49.120 | That's their impacts also incorporated in that.

00:49:51.120 | - I mean, first of all, that's incredible.

00:49:52.960 | And second of all, is that possible to scale?

00:49:55.160 | - I don't see why it isn't.

00:49:57.520 | I mean, it's complex to scale,

00:50:00.640 | but I mean, we're putting people on the moon

00:50:02.600 | and you have a robotic dog.

00:50:04.840 | I mean-

00:50:05.680 | - But that's less about scale,

00:50:08.640 | that's more about innovation.

00:50:09.960 | So like in many ways, what Belcampo has done

00:50:12.680 | is innovative at a small scale.

00:50:14.480 | The question is whether that innovation could be scaled.

00:50:16.480 | - That's where I feel like we in the industry

00:50:18.520 | need more help.

00:50:20.120 | You know, the AI piece, the intelligence,

00:50:23.160 | the thinking about ways to do things differently

00:50:27.560 | is where we need more support.

00:50:29.240 | And I think it's been a, you know,

00:50:31.520 | kind of a swing in the past couple years

00:50:36.520 | where it's like, meat's a mess, it's terrible.

00:50:40.640 | So let's ditch meat and opt for these hyper-processed,

00:50:44.200 | you know, plant-based solutions.

00:50:46.600 | And I am saying there's a way to make meat

00:50:50.560 | a part of the solution.

00:50:52.480 | And it's gonna mean eating less of it,

00:50:54.600 | it's gonna mean paying more for it,

00:50:56.160 | it's gonna mean that the farming systems

00:50:57.480 | are more complicated.

00:50:59.040 | It's not the easiest path,

00:51:00.600 | but I think in the longterm, it's the better path.

00:51:03.240 | And it's also better for human health.

00:51:05.400 | - Can you comment on the certified humane piece?

00:51:07.880 | So how do you run a farm?

00:51:11.280 | Like, what does it mean to raise an animal

00:51:14.040 | from the beginning of its life to the end of its life

00:51:17.080 | in a way that's ethical, that's humane?

00:51:19.040 | - I think the first piece you need to just be comfortable

00:51:22.640 | with is that making an animal into meat, you know,

00:51:27.080 | is something that you're comfortable with.

00:51:28.680 | 'Cause I think that's the biggest question, right?

00:51:30.880 | And so certified humane actually goes all the way

00:51:33.360 | through the death of the animal,

00:51:35.440 | how it's killed and handled at processing.

00:51:37.600 | So I put that out there just to say,

00:51:39.640 | well, that's, you know,

00:51:40.480 | this is all about producing an animal to die for meat.

00:51:43.760 | And that's not necessarily,

00:51:45.360 | that's something people struggle with with the word humane.

00:51:47.400 | And I understand that.

00:51:48.240 | Like I have space and empathy for that.

00:51:49.840 | It's a complicated decision.

00:51:51.800 | And when you have to be comfortable with at the outset

00:51:53.720 | to say, this is an animal that's gonna die to feed me.

00:51:56.280 | - Yeah, so we should pause on that.

00:51:58.120 | 'Cause I actually just two days ago read a paper

00:52:01.920 | that argued that, you know,

00:52:03.960 | the killing of an animal period cannot be humane.

00:52:06.640 | So it's impossible.

00:52:07.840 | And so, and that's an argument,

00:52:09.400 | just like you're saying we could make.

00:52:11.920 | But if we now on the table kind of take as a starting point,

00:52:17.880 | the idea that it's possible to kill an animal for food

00:52:22.840 | in an ethical way, if we take that as a starting point.

00:52:25.800 | So we won't argue about that.

00:52:27.400 | It is worth arguing about it elsewhere.

00:52:29.520 | And it probably will.

00:52:30.760 | I will probably talk to a few vegan folks

00:52:33.240 | and we'll talk about the vegan diet.

00:52:35.240 | I'm fascinated by it as well.

00:52:36.640 | So I'm torn in the whole thing.

00:52:38.000 | But if we just take that as a starting point,

00:52:41.120 | what then is an ethical humane way to treat an animal?

00:52:45.360 | - I look at ethical humane animal treatment

00:52:48.280 | as the major phases of life.

00:52:51.400 | So conception, birth and mothering, diet.

00:52:56.400 | Those are kind of the major touch points of life.

00:53:01.040 | So what we're looking at is evolutionary approach,

00:53:06.040 | which means is the animal eating

00:53:09.520 | what it evolved to eat primarily?

00:53:12.360 | Is the animal primarily outdoors,

00:53:15.520 | which is how all animals evolved,

00:53:18.160 | given when the climate's appropriate for it.

00:53:20.200 | There are certain times when you can't have animals

00:53:22.560 | fully outdoors, like here on our ranch,

00:53:24.400 | we have had issues with cold weather and things.

00:53:28.360 | But so if you have appropriate weather conditions,

00:53:31.920 | is the animal outdoors?

00:53:33.680 | Is the animal able to nurture and engage with its young?

00:53:37.160 | Those are the kind of key touch points,

00:53:38.760 | but it's really the birth of it.

00:53:40.640 | Let me start this one from the scratch.

00:53:42.640 | - Sure.

00:53:43.600 | - Okay, so when I'm looking at,

00:53:45.400 | or when I consider what's humane,

00:53:47.160 | setting aside the death part,

00:53:48.920 | I look at the evolutionary diet,

00:53:51.500 | access to the outdoors,

00:53:54.160 | and ideally spending the majority of its life outdoors.

00:53:59.520 | Low density, so animals spread out,

00:54:02.300 | and engagement with young, social interactions.

00:54:07.320 | And that's all kind of--

00:54:08.160 | - Social interaction is the cool one.

00:54:09.600 | I mean, I also read an article that like,

00:54:11.520 | there's like cows, for example, have social,

00:54:14.840 | like they have friends.

00:54:16.560 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:54:17.960 | - That's fascinating.

00:54:18.800 | I mean, that piece with the young,

00:54:20.640 | social interaction with young,

00:54:21.680 | social interaction with each other,

00:54:23.600 | that at a basic level,

00:54:25.400 | I'm sure that interaction is not as rich as humans,

00:54:28.080 | but that piece seems to be part of the humane picture.

00:54:31.680 | And you said also just a quick comment,

00:54:34.280 | evolutionary diet,

00:54:35.840 | meaning the diet that they were evolved to have.

00:54:40.120 | - And that's pretty simple.

00:54:41.720 | You can look at the physiology of the animal

00:54:43.960 | and figure that out.

00:54:45.160 | So ruminant species are lamb, goats, and beef,

00:54:48.680 | and they have five stomachs.

00:54:50.960 | They evolved eating really low calorie, high fiber foods.

00:54:55.160 | That's why they've got all the stomachs.

00:54:56.680 | They need a lot of processing.

00:54:57.960 | You or I were to eat grass, we'd die in a week, right?

00:55:00.840 | Our physiology can't handle it.

00:55:02.540 | Cows were built and evolved

00:55:04.320 | to eat this very low calorie, very high fiber,

00:55:06.720 | very low density food.

00:55:08.760 | And they walk around slowly,

00:55:10.720 | they're moving constantly, and they're eating it.

00:55:13.460 | When we put them on a corn fed diet,

00:55:15.720 | that's the opposite of their evolutionary diet

00:55:17.800 | and their systems really struggle with it.

00:55:19.840 | Now, pigs and chickens are different.

00:55:22.220 | Pigs and chickens are omnivores.

00:55:24.680 | And pigs will happily eat chickens, for example.

00:55:29.680 | Our pigs on the farm will hunt and kill rattlesnakes

00:55:33.500 | and eat them.

00:55:34.340 | - And they enjoy all of it.

00:55:39.400 | - They're omnivores.

00:55:40.640 | So you often see, and I've seen people try to raise

00:55:43.680 | like a grass fed chicken that doesn't exist.

00:55:46.880 | I mean, they need a higher, omnivores eat everything.

00:55:50.000 | They're what's called monogastric.

00:55:51.400 | They got one stomach.

00:55:53.060 | And that one stomach needs higher density nutrients.

00:55:56.300 | So in the case of chicken, if you were to do,

00:55:59.640 | look back in American history in the 1950s,

00:56:03.480 | commercial chickens took like 54 weeks

00:56:05.900 | to come to full weight.

00:56:07.660 | Now it's two and a half weeks in confinement farming.

00:56:10.500 | In our systems, it's like eight, 10 weeks typically.

00:56:14.140 | So you have to give them some amount of nutrient density,

00:56:17.660 | but there's the idea that no grain,

00:56:20.580 | 'cause that's a misinformation.

00:56:22.740 | For any type of commercial operation, free range,

00:56:25.700 | regenerative, pastured, everything,

00:56:27.460 | you're gonna have to have a grain feed to get any type of,

00:56:30.420 | it's actually, I think for the case of chickens,

00:56:32.300 | unless you're in a place with like tons of natural seeds

00:56:34.440 | and grubs and worms and stuff to eat,

00:56:36.640 | really challenging for the chicken.

00:56:38.420 | So you gotta give them some high density,

00:56:40.040 | high calorie food different from that.

00:56:41.680 | That's the evolutionary diet is a really key thing.

00:56:44.600 | That's the fundamental thing for health.

00:56:46.680 | And it's also interesting 'cause that,

00:56:48.040 | the evolutionary diet ties to human health.

00:56:51.120 | I've looked at the nutritional analysis

00:56:53.080 | on all of our products and it's,

00:56:55.840 | the evolutionary diet is for the case of beef

00:57:00.520 | and lamb gets their omega three to six ratios

00:57:03.880 | the same as wild game.

00:57:05.160 | So it's not like beef is really radically different

00:57:08.640 | from elk, a ruminant species, right?

00:57:11.500 | If you feed beef an evolutionary diet,

00:57:14.540 | their nutritional profile is the same as wild meat,

00:57:16.680 | has a wild ruminant.

00:57:18.160 | - I got a chance to witness Neuralink,

00:57:20.360 | I don't know if you're familiar with that company,

00:57:21.880 | the brain, brain computer interfaces.

00:57:24.160 | And they have, I got a chance to see it in person,

00:57:27.320 | just a bunch of pigs who had Neuralink chips implanted

00:57:30.720 | and taken out.

00:57:31.760 | Those pigs are so happy with life.

00:57:34.000 | I don't know, I've never seen a happier animal.

00:57:36.400 | (laughs)

00:57:37.880 | I mean, 'cause they get to eat,

00:57:39.320 | 'cause you were mentioning sort of diets and stuff.

00:57:41.800 | They basically, pigs seem to love a lot of stuff.

00:57:44.640 | They're easily made to be happy.

00:57:47.360 | I don't know if you can comment on your thoughts

00:57:53.680 | of exploring the capacity of the pig mind

00:57:58.680 | through some of this testing with Neuralink,

00:58:01.480 | whether that's exciting to you,

00:58:02.800 | whether maybe on the humane side,

00:58:04.120 | it's a little bit concerning,

00:58:05.560 | if there's something to be said on sort of like,

00:58:10.120 | yeah, I don't know if it's even the ethical side,

00:58:14.360 | but just because of your connection to meat

00:58:16.840 | and to nature and understanding these living beings.

00:58:21.120 | - Well, pigs are incredibly intelligent,

00:58:22.840 | so I'm not surprised that they're a subject matter

00:58:24.480 | for Neuralink.

00:58:25.920 | They're smarter than dogs

00:58:26.840 | and they're empathetic and emotional.

00:58:28.640 | And we'll go look at our pigs afterwards and see,

00:58:33.000 | but they're kind of like joyful and exuberant

00:58:36.160 | when they're in good health.

00:58:37.840 | And so that makes sense.

00:58:41.040 | I'm interested and open.

00:58:43.640 | I feel that the kind of bleeding edge agriculture movement

00:58:50.720 | that I'm on the edge of in some ways,

00:58:53.240 | we're a larger operator,

00:58:54.240 | but we as a movement have to,

00:58:56.720 | we have to get into the game.

00:58:59.240 | We have to move forward in a way that allows us to scale

00:59:01.920 | if we wanna be viable.

00:59:03.680 | So I think there has to be openness to how that can happen.

00:59:06.680 | And I also think there needs to be more thoughtful

00:59:09.440 | and noisy data about how regenerative ranching

00:59:13.760 | can sequester carbon.

00:59:15.400 | I mean, thousands of American ranches

00:59:18.600 | are selling carbon credits right now.

00:59:20.640 | The data is that valid.

00:59:21.760 | And they're not selling carbon credits

00:59:23.080 | from like grassland that just got a fence around it.

00:59:26.240 | They're selling carbon credits for verified data

00:59:28.040 | from animals assisting in carbon sequestration.

00:59:30.480 | So there's got to be a way to get the tech community

00:59:34.720 | involved in ways to help regenerative agriculture scale.

00:59:38.400 | - In different creative ways.

00:59:39.760 | And actually, that'd be interesting

00:59:41.160 | if Neuralink somehow has,

00:59:43.480 | especially 'cause Elon Musk is involved

00:59:45.160 | and Kimball Musk has his whole effort

00:59:48.080 | and appreciation of regenerative agriculture,

00:59:51.040 | that I wonder if Neuralink has a role to play.

00:59:54.920 | Like exploring the neurobiology of the animal,

00:59:59.680 | if that somehow will create innovations

01:00:01.600 | that lead to improved scaling of regenerative agriculture.

01:00:06.600 | That'd be interesting.

01:00:09.160 | But you're saying you should be open

01:00:10.200 | to all those possibilities.

01:00:11.040 | - I don't know the landscape to know what.

01:00:13.920 | But my sense is that it's very hard.

01:00:16.040 | It's very hard.

01:00:17.840 | And our farming operation to scale

01:00:19.960 | has been incredibly complex and challenging.

01:00:22.280 | We now work with partner firms.

01:00:24.400 | I see their operations.

01:00:25.560 | They're incredibly complex.

01:00:27.440 | It just seems like there's gotta be a way

01:00:28.960 | to make some of these things simpler

01:00:31.400 | and easier to share information.

01:00:33.040 | I don't know what that answer is.

01:00:36.240 | - What would be cool is if we can understand deeper ways

01:00:39.760 | to measure the happiness of an animal.

01:00:42.920 | 'Cause then we can optimize,

01:00:44.600 | like certified humane could be literally

01:00:47.240 | an optimization problem.

01:00:48.200 | Just make sure, as opposed to kind of using our,

01:00:51.520 | projecting our own human values,

01:00:53.600 | actually measuring what the animal's happy doing.

01:00:56.200 | That could be, so understanding the pig brain

01:00:58.760 | might help us understand pig happiness

01:01:00.920 | and reframe what it means for a happy animal.

01:01:04.560 | And then maybe it's a lot easier to make a happy animal,

01:01:07.120 | to make the animal happy than we think.

01:01:09.920 | And it might have to do with a variety of delicious food

01:01:12.160 | in the case of the pig.

01:01:13.760 | Is there something you could say about grass-fed meat?

01:01:16.440 | Is it all, just out of my own sort of curiosity,

01:01:18.960 | whenever people say,

01:01:20.680 | so grass-fed meat is better for you,

01:01:22.320 | are all grass-fed meat made the same?

01:01:24.920 | Is there a different, like, it's like the word organic.

01:01:29.400 | Is there a lot of variety within that?

01:01:31.640 | Like the way Belcampo does it, others do it.

01:01:34.160 | Just more color, if you could add to this whole word

01:01:38.360 | and what it means.

01:01:39.200 | - Grass-fed beef has been on grass its entire life.

01:01:43.160 | And you wanna look for the words 100% grass-fed

01:01:45.320 | or grass-fed and finished.

01:01:47.320 | Now, the challenge with feeding beef grass its whole life

01:01:52.320 | is that it gains weight more slowly.

01:01:56.980 | Although beef didn't evolve eating corn and things,

01:02:02.840 | it can eat them.

01:02:03.880 | And in eating them, it gains weight more rapidly

01:02:07.280 | and has like a version of like an inflammatory response.

01:02:11.920 | If you actually look inside the rumen

01:02:13.520 | of the animal inside the stomach,

01:02:15.960 | it's like black and shiny inside

01:02:18.580 | compared to grass-fed animals,

01:02:19.760 | like green, smells like compost.

01:02:21.600 | So the animals themselves,

01:02:22.560 | their whole physiology is damaged by that food,

01:02:25.800 | but they also gain weight really quickly.

01:02:27.760 | And they put on a lot of fats.

01:02:28.940 | Like if you or me were to eat a bunch of processed food

01:02:31.700 | compared to eating a bunch of greens,

01:02:33.440 | it's the same impact.

01:02:34.280 | You're gonna blow up.

01:02:35.960 | So the problem for grass-fed

01:02:38.440 | is getting the animals to gain weight.

01:02:41.120 | They're getting a ton of exercise.

01:02:42.800 | They're eating really clean, right?

01:02:44.760 | And they're super chill.

01:02:46.600 | So that's different from the animals that are kept still,

01:02:50.840 | eating really nutrient dense foods

01:02:53.640 | and under a ton of stress, which is a confinement animal.

01:02:56.900 | So are all grass-fed meats created the same?

01:03:00.700 | The diet, yeah, nutritional profile broadly,

01:03:04.120 | but the length of time that the animal lives

01:03:07.000 | is extremely important for the flavor of the meat.

01:03:11.720 | We're taking our beef to 24 to 26 months.

01:03:16.040 | Conventional is around 18 months.

01:03:17.880 | So I'm always looking,

01:03:20.600 | if you're evaluating grass-fed animals,

01:03:22.200 | you wanna get animals

01:03:23.480 | that are typically allowed to live for longer

01:03:25.880 | 'cause their flavor's gonna be better.

01:03:27.120 | There's gonna be a bit more fat.

01:03:28.780 | And their omega ratios also vary very differently.

01:03:33.780 | And I've seen omega ratios,

01:03:36.320 | on our farm, everywhere from one to three to one to one,

01:03:39.800 | ideal is one to one game is typically one to one

01:03:41.920 | or one to two omega three to sixes.

01:03:44.200 | But in operations where you don't have year round grass,

01:03:47.560 | it's more complicated.

01:03:48.400 | You're feeding hay

01:03:49.240 | and you don't get that three to six ratio.

01:03:51.160 | Omega threes come from green grass.

01:03:54.040 | They're the fat in greens.

01:03:56.160 | And so they're scarce and costly, right?

01:03:59.220 | So you can have grass-fed and finished animals

01:04:01.800 | that don't have that perfect ratio

01:04:02.960 | 'cause maybe they're in a climate

01:04:04.120 | or for whatever reasons, we've had to do it too,

01:04:06.500 | during the droughts, do hay finishing.

01:04:08.040 | It's not optimal, it changes the ratio,

01:04:09.680 | but so there's a little bit of variance within it.

01:04:12.600 | I'd say though, the variance within grass-fed

01:04:16.760 | is still small compared to the variance

01:04:19.240 | between conventional and grass-fed, right?

01:04:21.920 | So there's definitely things to look for within it,

01:04:24.600 | but the real difference is between those two.

01:04:27.840 | Also thing to notice is that it's not a verified word, okay?

01:04:32.840 | So grass-fed means animals that have been on grass

01:04:37.360 | at some point in their life.

01:04:38.720 | - Mm-hmm.

01:04:39.560 | - The way the cattle industry is in the US,

01:04:43.980 | there's segmentation.

01:04:46.320 | So there's cow-calf operations.

01:04:48.400 | Then those calves get sold to stocker operations,

01:04:52.120 | which raised animals in their teens basically,

01:04:54.360 | and then those get sold to feed lots.

01:04:56.780 | And so those three phases,

01:04:58.840 | that first phase of the cow-calf is always on grass.

01:05:02.520 | It's mother cows and mom cows are amazing.

01:05:04.720 | They can thrive on anything

01:05:06.620 | and still put all their nutrients into their baby

01:05:08.460 | and their babies will be healthy.

01:05:09.760 | So you never are putting mother cows

01:05:11.160 | on really premium pasture.

01:05:12.760 | So it's usually just kind of like okay pasture,

01:05:15.160 | dirty, if you ever see kind of like scrubby lots

01:05:17.920 | with lots of cows and calves on,

01:05:19.360 | that's a cow-calf operation.

01:05:20.760 | So there's also a loophole, unfortunately,

01:05:24.040 | where people use the term grass-fed

01:05:26.320 | and they're actually referring to animals

01:05:27.720 | that at some point in their life had grass,

01:05:29.200 | but that might be pretty far in the rear view mirror.

01:05:31.480 | - So you need to look at that grass-fed and finished

01:05:34.760 | or grass-fed 100%.

01:05:36.680 | - That ratio of omega-3s to 6s,

01:05:38.500 | it changes in like a week on grain.

01:05:40.660 | - Wow.

01:05:41.500 | - So it's radically different.

01:05:42.320 | Unfortunately, it's the same thing for you and me.

01:05:43.980 | You could eat clean for a month,

01:05:45.340 | you eat junk for three days, you're garbage, right?

01:05:48.060 | It's not like you can just like coast on that, right?

01:05:50.220 | We know what that's like.

01:05:51.060 | Same thing for animals, our physiology changes.

01:05:52.740 | Food's the number one way we interact with our environment

01:05:55.260 | and our body changes really rapidly and dramatically.

01:05:58.220 | - So we know Belcampo and just the way

01:06:01.540 | sort of this regenerative farming approach of Belcampo

01:06:04.540 | and the certified humane is good for the land,

01:06:07.620 | is good for the animal.

01:06:09.820 | Can you comment on ways it's good

01:06:11.920 | for the human that eats the meat?

01:06:14.240 | Is this meat better for you?

01:06:16.720 | - Yes.

01:06:18.160 | And this is where, you know, the kind of focus on the joy

01:06:21.400 | and animals doing yoga and all this sort of like

01:06:23.440 | cynical stuff about this type of agriculture.

01:06:27.800 | Say just like, set that aside.

01:06:29.880 | You know, it really is better for your health.

01:06:32.800 | It's got a better fat ratio.

01:06:34.280 | It's less inflammatory.

01:06:35.720 | It's got higher protein.

01:06:37.000 | It's just better product.

01:06:39.500 | In the case of beef, it's lower in fat

01:06:43.040 | and that fat is a better quality and it's higher

01:06:45.420 | in poultry and pork is also higher in protein.

01:06:47.300 | So all the nutritionals are better.

01:06:49.040 | It's got higher density of vitamins,

01:06:50.540 | got higher density of minerals.

01:06:52.320 | And none of this stuff is radically different than,

01:06:55.180 | you know, it's not like it's the product is black and white,

01:06:59.220 | but every metric meaningfully is better

01:07:02.660 | in the right direction across the board.

01:07:05.060 | So why wouldn't you?

01:07:06.900 | - I hesitate to take anecdotal evidence

01:07:10.980 | as like final scientific conclusions, but it does seem,

01:07:14.420 | I've eaten quite a bit of belcampo meat, for example,

01:07:16.660 | and it just, my body seems to respond,

01:07:19.620 | like is less bothered by it.

01:07:22.500 | Meaning like less inflamed, I just feel better

01:07:25.860 | 'cause I mostly eat a meat diet.

01:07:28.300 | And it does seem to be a little bit of a difference

01:07:30.860 | what kind of meat I eat, where it comes from.

01:07:34.100 | I don't know if that's my own psychology also.

01:07:37.300 | I mean, there is an aspect to like,

01:07:39.220 | when you know that the meat came from a good place

01:07:42.100 | and all the ways we've defined good,

01:07:45.160 | you feel better about it.

01:07:46.900 | And that has an effect, like decreased stress.

01:07:49.520 | So I'm a huge believer in that,

01:07:50.900 | like outside of just nutrition,

01:07:53.260 | how you feel about the whole experience is a huge impact,

01:07:55.780 | but it does feel like the meat itself

01:07:58.760 | is actually just leading to less inflammation for me

01:08:01.340 | or like less, like the bloated feeling

01:08:04.940 | and all those negative effects that could come with me

01:08:07.580 | versus like certain other ground beef that I eat,

01:08:10.500 | like store-bought chicken breast or steak,

01:08:15.380 | all those kinds of things.

01:08:16.460 | My body's a little bit more,

01:08:19.220 | works a little bit harder to process that food,

01:08:21.140 | it feels like.

01:08:21.980 | I don't know if there's science to that,

01:08:23.040 | but sort of anecdotally, that seems to be the case.

01:08:25.380 | - Omega-6s are a big part of that,

01:08:26.980 | for in the case of the beef.

01:08:27.820 | You eat a lot of beef.

01:08:28.640 | - Yes. - You love beef.

01:08:29.860 | And so in a conventional beef product,

01:08:33.020 | it's a one to 30 ratio of omega-3s to sixes,

01:08:36.700 | and it can sometimes one to 20, one to 30,

01:08:39.500 | but that's the wrong direction.

01:08:41.420 | In our beef, it's as low as one to one.

01:08:45.340 | So that and the omega-6s are what's part of inflammation.

01:08:48.740 | Now, the magic in animals

01:08:52.500 | is that they're incredibly efficient processors, right?

01:08:55.040 | And in the same way that the body can protect us from,

01:09:00.040 | can process and take out tons of things

01:09:03.540 | that are toxic out of the environment,

01:09:04.860 | I mean, animals' bodies can do that too.

01:09:06.660 | So the beauty of meat is that it can be pretty clean.

01:09:09.900 | Things like Roundup and stuff don't end up in the meat.

01:09:12.620 | When we have antibiotics in our meat,

01:09:14.820 | we're not worried about getting like tetracycline

01:09:16.900 | from the chicken breast.

01:09:18.460 | What we're worried about is

01:09:20.100 | the workers getting tetracycline,

01:09:21.660 | the chicken growing faster than it should,

01:09:23.300 | the meat being chewier and not as high quality.

01:09:26.340 | But the actual antibiotics don't,

01:09:28.140 | the animals are great at filtering that, right?

01:09:30.300 | They get that out.

01:09:31.140 | So you have to think about meat not as like contamination

01:09:34.740 | of like, oh, there's gonna be some of that garbage

01:09:36.340 | they used in the farming in my meat,

01:09:39.620 | but it's the more subtle things.

01:09:41.120 | It's the fat ratio, it's the protein density.

01:09:43.740 | And there's also just, I think in my experience,

01:09:48.700 | there's just more complex flavor

01:09:50.620 | and things that taste more complex.

01:09:52.540 | This is, science backs this up.

01:09:54.980 | They fill you up faster.

01:09:56.860 | So if you're looking to limit, to eat for fullness

01:10:01.220 | but not eat as many calories,

01:10:03.460 | more complex foods are the way to do that.

01:10:06.420 | And that hit, you hit your satiety,

01:10:08.940 | help you hit that satiety.

01:10:10.180 | So things like, I mean, all the key amino acids

01:10:13.640 | that help you feel full, mostly from meat, right?

01:10:16.460 | So those are, that's part of it,

01:10:17.820 | but all meats have those.

01:10:19.100 | Then there's other kind of micronutrients

01:10:20.820 | and things around that complex flavor

01:10:21.980 | that help you feel full faster.

01:10:23.520 | - Forgive me for this question,

01:10:26.580 | but it is kind of an interesting one

01:10:28.140 | that people are curious about.

01:10:30.060 | What does it feel like to be a,

01:10:33.740 | or what does it take to be a woman CEO of a meat company?

01:10:38.140 | I mean, you're no longer CEO of Belcampo,

01:10:40.020 | but you did, you ran, you co-founded Belcampo,

01:10:42.860 | you ran it for many, many years.

01:10:44.500 | Is there something that you could say

01:10:47.740 | in terms of challenges associated with that?

01:10:51.260 | And how did you personally overcome it?

01:10:54.340 | - So to be a female running a meat and livestock operation,

01:10:58.300 | I felt very alone a lot, you know, for a long time.

01:11:04.500 | I felt very, like everybody waiting for me to fail

01:11:09.700 | or watching and assuming that I was like,

01:11:14.540 | just good at marketing or whatever else.

01:11:16.660 | And so it's taken me a while to not internalize that.

01:11:21.660 | I think the only reason I'm here

01:11:31.180 | is we have our own supply chain in Slaughterhouse.

01:11:34.900 | And I think had I really been playing

01:11:36.340 | in the broader meat industry,

01:11:37.300 | it would have been a shorter journey.

01:11:38.780 | You know, it would have been very hard to make it

01:11:41.140 | even get to this phase.

01:11:44.660 | But I do, you know, I think the mission is my life's work.

01:11:49.660 | The mission of cleaner ingredients that taste so amazing.

01:11:59.540 | You don't need to do too much to them.

01:12:02.340 | You know, I like creating food

01:12:04.700 | that's in support of good health.

01:12:06.700 | - Yeah.

01:12:07.620 | - And then secondary to that, it's the environment,

01:12:10.060 | but I like a want healthy food to be a joy to eat, right?

01:12:13.580 | And that's, you know, creating innovation.

01:12:18.580 | The space for this company has been about building a brand

01:12:23.980 | that people understand and is transparent

01:12:26.260 | and that people believe in,

01:12:27.940 | in an industry that's broadly perceived as pretty corrupt.

01:12:30.780 | So those are the things I feel enormously proud of.

01:12:33.540 | - So you focused on the mission and the pushback,

01:12:37.300 | all the mess of the industry.

01:12:40.900 | You try not to internalize it,

01:12:42.140 | try not to let it affect you and focus on the mission.

01:12:44.220 | - You know, and it's in the joy of it.

01:12:46.220 | And the part where it's gotten fun for me

01:12:49.300 | has been returning to what I love about it.

01:12:51.740 | And I've only had the privilege

01:12:53.100 | of doing that pretty recently.

01:12:54.860 | So I think for me personally, you know, starting,

01:12:59.060 | I host this, these events on the farm called meat camps,

01:13:01.900 | where I cook and teach people to cook and, you know,

01:13:04.980 | taste and talk about flavor and all the like

01:13:07.100 | sensual aspects of it that are my fire.

01:13:10.300 | Like, thank goodness I did that stuff

01:13:12.060 | because otherwise it was just such a beating, you know,

01:13:14.500 | so there were parts of it where I got to feed my fire.

01:13:17.140 | And then now in the, you know, the past year,

01:13:19.580 | since resigning, I've been,

01:13:20.740 | I do all the recipe development, I shoot all the content.

01:13:23.540 | I, you know, taste product,

01:13:24.980 | I'm developing all of our new products.

01:13:26.780 | I launched our meatballs.

01:13:27.780 | I'm just about to launch our chicken meatballs,

01:13:29.620 | doing a high protein bone broth.

01:13:31.460 | Like those are, that's what,

01:13:33.060 | why I did this was to be able to build this great product

01:13:36.660 | that I could build on.

01:13:37.940 | So I'm kind of at that place now,

01:13:40.140 | but it's taken a lot longer.

01:13:41.340 | And I think, you know,

01:13:42.180 | looking at the landscape of what to do in food,

01:13:45.860 | this is definitely,

01:13:47.060 | we tackled the most complicated problem.

01:13:50.920 | - Well, so-

01:13:53.700 | - That I can imagine, you know,

01:13:54.540 | I did it like in the most old fashioned way.

01:13:57.020 | - Yeah.

01:13:57.860 | - Right, so it's been super complex.

01:13:59.500 | And then I also look at it and I'm like, yeah,

01:14:00.860 | and it's been messy and it's gonna continue to be hard,

01:14:03.700 | but I'm proud of having tackled the hard problems.

01:14:07.140 | - So the hard problem here

01:14:08.260 | is not in the space of technologies.

01:14:10.580 | It's in the space of bringing something that we've done

01:14:14.380 | for a long, long time in our human history

01:14:17.420 | and scaling it in the face

01:14:21.180 | of all the other economic pressures,

01:14:23.180 | like doing so successfully,

01:14:26.020 | also communicating to the rest of the world

01:14:27.780 | that this is a powerful solution.

01:14:29.640 | So inspiring the rest of the world that regenerative farming,

01:14:32.380 | like running a company in this kind of way

01:14:34.980 | that's humane for animals, good for the land,

01:14:38.180 | good for people, even if it costs,

01:14:41.140 | like if there's an increased cost to the meat,

01:14:44.100 | even if you have a broader vision

01:14:46.140 | that means eating less meat overall,

01:14:48.980 | that is like inspiring the world

01:14:52.260 | that this is a future we want.

01:14:53.820 | And just taking that on and getting that done.

01:14:57.560 | Got a chance to eat a little bit of cheese,

01:15:01.020 | which is a good opportunity

01:15:03.700 | to talk about your experience in Italy.

01:15:06.460 | You spent some time, or in the South of Europe,

01:15:08.740 | I'm not sure if it was Italy.

01:15:09.940 | Yeah, I lived in Italy, but.

01:15:11.460 | And there's cheese involved, right?

01:15:14.780 | Like what did you take away from that experience,

01:15:18.900 | both as a chef and as a human being?

01:15:21.620 | I moved to Europe right after my early 20s

01:15:25.580 | and I worked as a cheese maker.

01:15:27.580 | And I lived in really small rural farms in the countryside

01:15:34.980 | and I got up early and milked animals, made cheese.

01:15:39.460 | And I got to live in a traditional agricultural society

01:15:44.460 | and learn how they ate.

01:15:47.420 | So it shaped me as a cook

01:15:50.540 | because it was a chance to have incredible ingredients,

01:15:55.540 | learn how to cook very simple food.

01:15:59.460 | I had been immersed and thought

01:16:01.020 | that I wanted to be like a chefy chef, right?

01:16:04.220 | Because I love food and I love cooking

01:16:05.580 | and I was just drawn to that world.

01:16:08.260 | But I don't like the experience

01:16:11.300 | of that sort of like fancy food experience

01:16:12.740 | is not what is exciting for me about it.

01:16:16.860 | So I loved working in that environment

01:16:20.300 | because I got to eat lunches and dinners

01:16:23.300 | and everything with the farm that I lived on

01:16:26.460 | and just very traditional, simple way to eat.

01:16:31.100 | The other piece of it is,

01:16:33.060 | I went to high school in the 90s,

01:16:34.820 | child of like the low fat generation, right?

01:16:37.780 | And it was just really liberating and amazing

01:16:40.540 | to eat tons of super fatty foods

01:16:43.980 | and olive oil all over the place

01:16:46.740 | and bleak slabs of bread and salami

01:16:48.820 | and being this like vibrant health,

01:16:50.620 | like be leaner, happy, no skin stuff,

01:16:55.620 | stop getting split ends.

01:16:57.740 | Like I stopped having flaky nails,

01:16:59.380 | like just stuff that had bothered me my whole life,

01:17:02.260 | including like just moodiness.

01:17:04.460 | And that all just changed.

01:17:06.020 | And granted, I was also like living on a farm in Italy

01:17:08.580 | and getting up with the sunlight.

01:17:10.540 | And like there were lots of great aspects of my life as well

01:17:14.500 | that happened in that time.

01:17:15.660 | But I was just immersed in this diet

01:17:18.340 | that I realized like, man, this is so simple.

01:17:20.580 | And I also loved that I had like,

01:17:23.300 | you know, you'd have dinner

01:17:24.780 | and it was just like some ricotta cheese

01:17:26.540 | with some olive oil, some bread

01:17:27.900 | and like a bowl of fava beans.

01:17:30.980 | I was like, that's dinner.

01:17:32.420 | And it kind of broke down my assumptions too

01:17:34.620 | about like dinner always has to be this,

01:17:36.940 | you know, a protein and a vegetable

01:17:38.260 | and, you know, being more fluid and more seasonal

01:17:41.740 | was exciting for me.

01:17:43.380 | So I just learned kind of a lot about

01:17:46.100 | paying attention to food, simple preparation,

01:17:49.620 | and the vibrancy of health that I personally experienced,

01:17:54.620 | kind of made me double down on that.

01:17:58.100 | - Our mutual friend, Andrew Huberman,

01:18:01.340 | mentioned something offline to me

01:18:02.860 | about something involving the mob.

01:18:05.940 | - Oh yeah.

01:18:07.260 | - Is there something you could share

01:18:08.580 | or are people going to hurt if you share this?

01:18:11.780 | - It's far enough in the rear view mirror.

01:18:13.580 | I mean, I was hired by this group in Sicily on,

01:18:18.580 | and this is, you know, I was all of like 21 years old

01:18:23.700 | and to get a permit to work there,

01:18:26.100 | you have to show that you have a competency

01:18:28.020 | that nobody else in Italy has.

01:18:30.100 | And that competency for Anya Fernald

01:18:32.100 | at the time was cheese expert.

01:18:33.860 | So it was like this stupid American girl

01:18:36.340 | being like going to the consulate.

01:18:37.900 | So I already knew that it was like

01:18:38.940 | there was something wobbly about this organization,

01:18:41.060 | but I went to work for them.

01:18:42.780 | And my boss from that time did end up in federal prison

01:18:47.780 | for corruption many years later, embezzlement primarily.

01:18:52.780 | But so I was definitely in an environment

01:18:56.060 | that was answering to multiple masters.

01:18:59.460 | (laughing)

01:19:00.300 | And--

01:19:01.120 | - It's a nice way to put it.

01:19:01.960 | - It was, I couldn't have asked for a better way

01:19:04.780 | to kind of get with life

01:19:07.100 | and understand how things happen in the world though.

01:19:09.860 | You know, of learning as somebody

01:19:13.540 | who tends to be super direct and not very subtle.

01:19:17.660 | It was amazing to be in this world

01:19:19.180 | where like everybody communicates in multiple levels.

01:19:22.180 | Like my, we're going to lunch with my boss

01:19:24.980 | with somebody we're going to do a business deal with.

01:19:26.620 | And by the, they ordered a glass of wine

01:19:30.500 | and with that order communicated like disappointment.

01:19:34.780 | - Yeah.

01:19:35.620 | - Because that the father, the person who had made that wine

01:19:38.020 | had offended that other guys.

01:19:39.540 | - Yeah.

01:19:40.380 | - I like that level of stuff,

01:19:41.220 | like nothing happened directly.

01:19:42.420 | I'm like, what are we talking about afterwards?

01:19:43.500 | I'm like, what happened at lunch?

01:19:44.460 | It's like, oh, I just, you know,

01:19:45.700 | I told him this by ordering that, whatever,

01:19:47.820 | you know, that kind of thing.

01:19:48.660 | And so understanding that there's different ways

01:19:50.220 | of communicating, but it was also, you know,

01:19:53.740 | it was interesting to see.

01:19:56.940 | And I think I, you know, it's kind of the struggle

01:19:58.740 | that I've lived again and again in my life.

01:20:01.100 | Fundamentally, what we were doing in that operation was

01:20:04.540 | there's a very traditional cheese

01:20:05.980 | called the Ragusa cheese in Southeastern Sicily

01:20:08.780 | where I lived Ragusa.

01:20:09.780 | And it was about scaling that operation.

01:20:12.140 | So it was European union money that my boss was also

01:20:15.220 | unfortunately using for other things, but fundamentally

01:20:18.100 | it was to take that, this type of very small scale cheese,

01:20:21.540 | get them exported, help them scale.

01:20:22.900 | And we did it and it was really challenging.

01:20:24.820 | And I learned a lot about the safety issues

01:20:27.180 | and collaboration issues and creating groups

01:20:29.820 | of farmers for scale.

01:20:31.300 | So it's kind of been doing the same thing again and again.

01:20:34.740 | But Sicily, it, you know, it was also just the first place

01:20:39.300 | where I would regularly forage for food.

01:20:44.300 | - Yeah.

01:20:45.340 | - You know, like there I'd go to friends' houses

01:20:48.380 | and we'd like go out and pick nettles

01:20:50.500 | or go out and pick wild asparagus.

01:20:52.140 | Every season there was stuff that you would be gathering

01:20:54.180 | and that was just part of how you lived.

01:20:55.900 | And it was part of your health.

01:20:57.500 | So that was, I just learned a ton in that time

01:21:00.380 | about like simple eating and really that healthy food,

01:21:05.380 | the simpler it is, the better, right?

01:21:11.340 | Like this sort of sense that healthy food

01:21:13.220 | isn't in a tiny package, granola bar,

01:21:15.020 | lots of labels, lots of powders.

01:21:16.300 | It's like the more simple essential,

01:21:17.700 | closer to the land can actually lead to optimal health.

01:21:20.060 | - You've learned to appreciate the simplicity of food.

01:21:22.580 | The beauty within the simplicity.

01:21:26.020 | - I think it's 'cause it was the first time

01:21:27.060 | that I had amazing food quality.

01:21:31.580 | Okay, 'cause in the, where I grew up,

01:21:34.380 | there wasn't that food quality.

01:21:35.620 | Like I had some stuff from my garden

01:21:36.700 | and things that were great,

01:21:37.740 | but that's the kind of place where when artichokes in season

01:21:39.780 | all of a sudden there's guys selling artichokes

01:21:42.700 | on their bicycles in the street

01:21:44.540 | and they're just fresh picked and you'd get that one thing

01:21:46.980 | or the torpedo onions or the,

01:21:48.580 | like, so there's a seasonality and celebration of things

01:21:50.700 | in their peak moment and you would just have that one thing.

01:21:53.900 | And that was the first time I'd ever eaten in that way.

01:21:56.780 | - You were a judge several times on Iron Chef.

01:22:00.380 | How do you judge a good meal?

01:22:01.820 | Like what your own, other people's,

01:22:06.580 | like what rating system is good?

01:22:09.900 | - I mean, I go on experience and think about

01:22:11.420 | how many of your like most memorable fantastic meals

01:22:13.940 | are like three-star Michelin meals.

01:22:16.340 | It's more about the experience, right?

01:22:17.940 | It's more about that slow down, who are you with?

01:22:20.620 | And some of our best meals are like the most simple things.

01:22:23.660 | So Iron Chef, you know, those were fun experiences.

01:22:27.140 | It's a lot of sous vide though.

01:22:29.580 | It's a lot of sauces.

01:22:31.220 | It's a lot of powders.

01:22:32.620 | I mean, it's kind of like magic food.

01:22:34.300 | So that's not, I mean, it's incredible to watch it

01:22:37.620 | as science, but I don't know

01:22:39.500 | if those are my most memorable meals.

01:22:41.460 | - So the experience is how you judge a good meal

01:22:44.180 | for you personally.

01:22:45.100 | If you were a judge of the entirety of the human experience

01:22:48.540 | in terms of the culinary journey,

01:22:50.700 | that would be like the people you're eating with,

01:22:53.180 | the environment, like how you feel,

01:22:56.580 | the journey, the building up to that meal,

01:22:58.980 | like the whole thing, you can't separate it out.

01:23:00.700 | - When I was learning as an apprentice cheesemaker in Greece,

01:23:05.700 | one of the best meals of my life

01:23:08.180 | is like a bowl of cold sheep milk yogurt

01:23:10.860 | with like a crust of cold fat on top.

01:23:13.060 | So like the way that these fatty,

01:23:14.780 | the sheep milk can have double the percentage of fat

01:23:17.500 | than cow milk.

01:23:18.420 | So like there's the yogurt and then there's this crust

01:23:20.380 | of fat and then they pour the fresh honey over the top

01:23:23.540 | and you just eat like this bowl of yogurt,

01:23:26.580 | probably top five meals of my life.

01:23:28.340 | Right, I mean, that's the simplicity,

01:23:31.100 | it's just the best thing.

01:23:31.940 | And it was the fact that it's in terracotta

01:23:33.500 | and I'd had this amazing day

01:23:34.820 | and all of these things come together,

01:23:36.780 | but I still remember that feeling.

01:23:37.980 | And I think most of us have those like really great

01:23:40.780 | sensual memories of food

01:23:42.660 | and they're not about necessarily

01:23:45.460 | that one fancy over the top restaurant or something,

01:23:49.380 | it's really about the whole context of enjoyment.

01:23:52.660 | - Maybe you can help me with something.

01:23:54.460 | So I think offline said that we're both introverts a bit,

01:23:58.400 | but I certainly find joy in repetition.

01:24:03.400 | So I kind of hide away as an introvert

01:24:07.020 | and eat the same thing over and over and over again.

01:24:09.780 | But at the same time,

01:24:10.860 | I had this conversation with Tyler Cohen,

01:24:12.980 | who's an economist, but he's also a food critic.

01:24:15.940 | He writes these incredible posts about different foods.

01:24:19.540 | And we had this conversation

01:24:23.260 | about what his last meal would be.

01:24:24.900 | If he had to choose,

01:24:25.740 | like what is the best meal he's ever eaten

01:24:27.940 | that he would want to eat?

01:24:29.700 | And he had a good answer about it,

01:24:31.140 | it had to do with experience, I think.

01:24:32.780 | If for him it was a particular Mexican restaurant

01:24:35.340 | and it had in Mexico because of the ingredients,

01:24:37.660 | because of the experience,

01:24:38.940 | because of the work it took to get there

01:24:40.660 | and all those kinds of things.

01:24:42.100 | But also made me realize,

01:24:43.380 | like when I was going home after that conversation,

01:24:45.900 | that I couldn't answer that question myself,

01:24:48.820 | like what is the best meal I've ever eaten?

01:24:51.580 | Because I really haven't experienced much.

01:24:54.660 | And so it almost was like a challenge to myself.

01:24:57.980 | Like I feel like I should journey out a little bit more

01:25:00.860 | in this life and try stuff.

01:25:03.640 | And to try to see like,

01:25:06.580 | what is the best meal for me in the world?

01:25:10.500 | Like both the experience and the taste, right?

01:25:13.420 | So I was kind of wondering first,

01:25:15.100 | I'd love to ask you like what your last meal would be

01:25:18.180 | or what is the greatest meal you've ever eaten?

01:25:20.900 | But also, and you're still very young,

01:25:23.460 | and so there's still more experiences to be had, right?

01:25:27.000 | And for me, like how do you go about

01:25:30.820 | finding the best meal in the world?

01:25:32.840 | Is there a device you could give essentially?

01:25:38.500 | - There's that sense of anticipation, right?

01:25:42.340 | So if it's the best meal, I'd say for you,

01:25:46.940 | it would need to be on the heels of something

01:25:49.700 | where you'd pushed yourself with a fast

01:25:52.240 | or with an athletic event, right?

01:25:54.020 | Or something like you would be coming into it

01:25:56.460 | with a sense of anticipation because of deprivation.

01:25:59.220 | You would be hungry for it in a bigger sense of the word,

01:26:01.580 | like hungry for deep nutrition on your soul level

01:26:03.620 | and as well as your belly.

01:26:05.460 | So I'd say that you'd have to think about it

01:26:06.900 | as a phase of things, like multiple things.

01:26:09.980 | And then I also think, you love meat, you love cheese,

01:26:14.260 | you have to have some things that come together, right?

01:26:16.780 | Like there's gotta be some specific elements

01:26:19.200 | of just your favorite flavors in that.

01:26:21.740 | - But there could be flavors yet to be discovered.

01:26:23.540 | That's a whole other thing because I just

01:26:26.020 | emotionally and physically feel good on meat,

01:26:29.700 | but that doesn't mean like maybe like a rice-based dish,

01:26:34.660 | like sushi or something like that.

01:26:36.780 | Or Indian cuisine where it's like sauces

01:26:39.420 | and the breads and whatever.

01:26:40.900 | I love that stuff too.

01:26:42.180 | So we're not talking about like,

01:26:43.780 | a meal is an experience that could be like a one night stand

01:26:49.700 | but with a piece of food, right?

01:26:52.440 | It could be a totally different

01:26:53.900 | than what actually makes you feel good

01:26:56.100 | when you eat it every day.

01:26:57.420 | - Yeah, absolutely.

01:26:58.560 | Completely, completely analogous.

01:27:00.460 | I get that.

01:27:01.300 | I mean, you also though, there's elements of comfort

01:27:03.220 | and love and those different pieces for you.

01:27:05.440 | But I think you gotta look at like,

01:27:07.780 | where would you go somewhere?

01:27:09.700 | Like, would you go to a place where you could,

01:27:12.060 | you know, hike in Japan and then end up in a little place

01:27:14.500 | where you'd eat something?

01:27:15.740 | That's where I would think you are gonna have

01:27:17.200 | that magic moment.

01:27:18.460 | You know, maybe someplace you go to Mongolia

01:27:20.160 | and you're in a really extreme environment

01:27:22.540 | for three or four days and then you come back

01:27:24.220 | and you're in a farm and you get something on the table

01:27:27.080 | that's a surprise and you're hungry.

01:27:28.300 | Like that's gonna be the moment where you're

01:27:31.220 | it gonna explode in the instance of like the culinary level.

01:27:34.980 | For Alex, it levels up, right?

01:27:36.580 | That's the journey for you.

01:27:37.620 | It has to be, I think from understanding you,

01:27:39.940 | like a combination of that pushing yourself,

01:27:43.100 | anticipation and something about the--

01:27:45.700 | - Approvation of some sorts.

01:27:46.620 | - Exactly, and the environment.

01:27:47.940 | - Well, I definitely, definitely like some fasting

01:27:51.740 | is part of a great meal for me.

01:27:53.400 | So like 24 hours is like the minimum.

01:27:56.640 | You're more sensitive to the richness of any experience

01:28:00.980 | for me when I fast 24 hours.

01:28:04.260 | And so that's a requirement for a good meal

01:28:07.220 | is 24 hour fast, I think.

01:28:09.020 | It's just like, you're able to taste,

01:28:11.680 | I don't know, maybe psychological,

01:28:13.160 | but you're able to disassemble the various flavors

01:28:17.640 | in a meal as simple as like even a chicken breast.

01:28:20.340 | There's all kinds of flavors going on

01:28:22.140 | because like when you cook a chicken breast,

01:28:24.340 | there's like the outside, the inside.

01:28:26.940 | I mean, the volume of the meat tastes different

01:28:29.380 | as you eat like the different fibers.

01:28:31.700 | And you can like tell all those differences

01:28:33.620 | as you're eating when you're fasted

01:28:35.940 | and you can appreciate that.

01:28:37.500 | And of course, you're right,

01:28:38.760 | part of the journey is important.

01:28:40.620 | It makes me think like whether restaurants

01:28:42.860 | is the right place to explore or--

01:28:45.820 | - I'm envisioning it on a farm for you.

01:28:47.980 | I'm envisioning it in a place

01:28:49.300 | that's like really into ag and food.

01:28:51.900 | You know, like even a place like Romania,

01:28:54.020 | you know, like there's incredible farms, right?

01:28:56.300 | Where it's not gonna get any like fancy restaurants there,

01:28:58.860 | but you're probably gonna have

01:28:59.780 | some amazing little cheeses and cured meats.

01:29:03.340 | And you might go to some, you know,

01:29:04.780 | have some experience and end up in a place

01:29:06.340 | with like four things on the plate

01:29:07.540 | and each of them blows your mind.

01:29:09.100 | You know, like or Japan is another place like that.

01:29:11.980 | I think Vietnam, Laos, like, I mean,

01:29:13.820 | those are countries where there's like

01:29:14.980 | these incredible niche ingredients

01:29:16.540 | and this essentialism around food.

01:29:18.940 | - That's fascinating.

01:29:19.780 | Or maybe it's in Russia with Putin.

01:29:21.780 | That might be the best meal in the world.

01:29:22.620 | - Go with him on the farm.

01:29:23.900 | - Yeah, that'd be, it's hard to reproduce that.

01:29:27.620 | If that is in fact a good meal,

01:29:28.940 | it'd be, you know, it's hard to get them out to the farm,

01:29:32.420 | but maybe one time, maybe the best meal.

01:29:34.780 | What about you?

01:29:35.780 | - For me, like it's the ingredients

01:29:38.980 | that I associate with like indulgence,

01:29:41.100 | like be fresh bread with like my favorite culture butter

01:29:44.060 | on it, be food of my childhood.

01:29:46.380 | I grew up in Oregon.

01:29:47.380 | We always had salmon and smoked salmon or salmon eggs,

01:29:50.480 | like really good salmon eggs.

01:29:51.780 | I love cheese.

01:29:52.620 | I love goat cheese.

01:29:53.460 | I love all kinds of cheese.

01:29:54.420 | There'd be cheese.

01:29:55.480 | I love meat, obviously.

01:29:56.580 | I'm imagining it's sort of like an abundance

01:29:59.060 | of like 10 things I love.

01:30:00.220 | It's not a dish, you know, it's like all the yummy things.

01:30:02.100 | - All of your indulgences on the same plate, yeah.

01:30:04.900 | - And there isn't like, for me,

01:30:05.820 | there's not like a big cake or something super like that.

01:30:08.100 | It's like really yummy things that I love,

01:30:10.920 | like really fresh, crusty, delicious bread that's warm.

01:30:13.580 | And it's got a bunch of butter on it.

01:30:14.820 | And I can put some salt on it and eat a big slab of that.

01:30:17.340 | That's just, that's where I'm at.

01:30:19.340 | - That's funny.

01:30:20.180 | And so meat to you is not like one of those indulgences.

01:30:24.500 | - Oh, definitely.

01:30:25.340 | That'd definitely be steak there too.

01:30:26.420 | I'm just imagining not like there isn't a specific dish.

01:30:28.460 | It's like eight or 10 things, right?

01:30:30.500 | It's the fresh bread.

01:30:32.020 | It's something like fishy, yummy.

01:30:34.020 | It'd probably be really good fresh berries too.

01:30:36.940 | There'd be a steak or a pork chop or something like meaty

01:30:39.980 | and delicious and savory.

01:30:42.500 | There'd be some cheese,

01:30:43.660 | just a bunch of different things that I love to eat

01:30:46.220 | that like all kind of check boxes for me

01:30:48.060 | is probably what would make me happiest.

01:30:49.700 | - I'm afraid of variety.

01:30:51.700 | I like the focus when you can just,

01:30:53.660 | this is all you have,

01:30:54.500 | the scarcity of just this is the one ingredient

01:30:57.660 | and really appreciating it.

01:30:59.780 | Or maybe one thing, like one full complex flavor,

01:31:04.020 | whatever the heck that is.

01:31:06.100 | It's like the distraction,

01:31:08.140 | the serial dating nature of having a bunch of things

01:31:11.580 | in a plate is, yeah.

01:31:15.020 | For some reason that prevents me

01:31:16.900 | from fully enjoying any one of them.

01:31:19.300 | I don't know why that is.

01:31:20.860 | The more healthy way to do it is the variety.

01:31:23.940 | Your way is the healthier way to do it.

01:31:25.860 | Is alcohol involved?

01:31:27.660 | - I don't drink very much.

01:31:29.180 | I like red wine, but I just don't really,

01:31:32.820 | I love red wine with good food.

01:31:35.420 | And I also co-founded a rum business.

01:31:40.580 | That's an organic rum, so I love that product.

01:31:42.820 | But that's not, for me,

01:31:44.220 | it's like I'm more interested in the food, I'd say.

01:31:49.220 | - Is there some connection

01:31:50.580 | between your chef life, cooking, and music?

01:31:54.580 | Does this music have a role in the experience?

01:31:57.260 | - I love artistic expression.

01:31:59.460 | And that's always had a role in my life

01:32:02.180 | in the same way I love to paint and draw

01:32:03.540 | and all the different things.

01:32:05.940 | I was a professional musician when I lived in Sicily,

01:32:09.100 | by definition, technicality,

01:32:10.660 | 'cause I played in the municipal band.

01:32:12.620 | So I would march around the town with all the funerals.

01:32:19.460 | I get 50 euro every time I'd march in a funeral

01:32:22.380 | playing my oboe.

01:32:23.220 | So it's given me, I like that because I like to,

01:32:25.740 | like you were talking about going to farms,

01:32:27.260 | what I quested for was experience and connection

01:32:30.820 | in places where I could learn things.

01:32:32.660 | That's been the through line of my learning journey.

01:32:34.700 | I've learned things and sought knowledge

01:32:36.900 | that I can't get in any conventional learning environment.

01:32:40.020 | And so what are the tools that let me do that?

01:32:42.100 | It was like being adaptable and comfortable

01:32:45.620 | in different cultures,

01:32:46.460 | but also having common ground points

01:32:48.420 | that allow you to connect with people.

01:32:51.300 | So music's one of those things.

01:32:52.740 | So I love music, but I also,

01:32:56.420 | there's any number of different, enjoy a food,

01:32:57.820 | being able to pitch in, help in the kitchen,

01:33:00.020 | play cards, like those are when you're dealing

01:33:02.540 | with getting into farming communities and stuff,

01:33:04.740 | that stuff really helps.

01:33:06.380 | So I basically have cultivated tools

01:33:08.420 | that let me drop into places where I can learn.

01:33:11.460 | And so those are all kind of a piece.

01:33:14.180 | - Those are just tools to get in there.

01:33:15.980 | That said, we did listen to some Justin Bieber earlier today.

01:33:18.340 | I need to get more into him.

01:33:20.300 | I need to understand the full complexity of the Biebs.

01:33:23.580 | You're trying to achieve what hunting stands for,

01:33:25.580 | but at a much larger scale,

01:33:27.500 | which is what kind of Bo Campo stands for.

01:33:29.580 | But what are your thoughts on hunting as a source of meat?

01:33:32.500 | - Amazing, 100% pro hunting.

01:33:35.980 | I think the reason that hunting flips the switch

01:33:39.100 | for so many people is because it's the first time

01:33:42.060 | they've had clean meat in their lives.

01:33:46.140 | Okay, so I think that the hunter's journey,

01:33:48.780 | when people get so turned on by hunting,

01:33:51.180 | they're just like, "Oh my God, I'm never going back."

01:33:53.860 | I'm saying that's great if you've got access to that,

01:33:56.220 | or if you know the guy who'll give you the backstrap,

01:33:57.780 | awesome, but that's not achievable for most of us.

01:34:02.620 | And I do think that talking to hunters

01:34:04.980 | about their experiences, what they love about it,

01:34:07.140 | many of them are just outdoorsmen.

01:34:09.140 | I say that 'cause most of them are men,

01:34:10.100 | but most of them love the outdoors aspect of it

01:34:11.780 | and being out in the wild.

01:34:14.140 | But a lot of them, it's 'cause of how they feel

01:34:15.900 | when they eat the meat.

01:34:17.220 | And it's because they're eating,

01:34:18.460 | I mean, 99% of meat in America is made a very specific way.

01:34:22.100 | And it's in a way that is pretty inflammatory,

01:34:25.780 | not incredibly delicious.

01:34:27.120 | And when you're on that extreme,

01:34:30.180 | and then you toggle to having this totally different

01:34:33.060 | style of product, it feels radically different in your body.

01:34:36.140 | So of course you're like, "I'll never go back."

01:34:38.380 | So when I talk about us being on that spectrum,

01:34:40.620 | it's like, well, hunting, I mean,

01:34:43.020 | I can never on any commercial operation

01:34:45.740 | create the variety of the biodiversity of species

01:34:49.500 | that an elk gets when it's wandering around of his own.

01:34:53.100 | I mean, there's no way you can do that on a farm.

01:34:55.300 | So there's always gonna be that extra five or 10%

01:34:58.700 | that those wild animals are gonna have.

01:35:00.820 | And those wild animals also fast for longer.

01:35:02.660 | So they go through periods of starvation

01:35:04.340 | and that creates an even slower growth for musculature

01:35:07.740 | that's gonna create even more unique flavor

01:35:10.780 | and characteristics.

01:35:11.980 | And so that's why there's that extra in the hunted meat,

01:35:15.380 | but you can come a lot closer

01:35:18.040 | with regenerative traditional farming to that flavor

01:35:20.700 | and health than with any other type of farming I know.

01:35:23.980 | So that's where I see it on the spectrum.

01:35:25.540 | I love that people are getting excited about game

01:35:29.660 | because it's better for your health.

01:35:33.660 | It's got all the same characteristics

01:35:35.900 | as regenerative farm meat,

01:35:37.420 | and it gets people turned on to like simple, delicious food.

01:35:41.260 | You shouldn't have to cover food with sauce

01:35:46.220 | that's got corn syrup and soy,

01:35:48.540 | bunch of junk in it to make it palatable.

01:35:51.220 | If you gotta put sauce on your food,

01:35:52.540 | you need to look at your ingredients.

01:35:54.660 | You need to revisit what you're starting from.

01:35:56.980 | Because if you have to put a bunch of things

01:35:59.700 | to mask flavor onto anything you're eating,

01:36:02.820 | you're trying to basically fool your palate

01:36:04.820 | into doing what's not best for your body.

01:36:07.180 | We're trying to tell our palates,

01:36:08.780 | like just make it through this plate

01:36:10.100 | so you can get the calories in,

01:36:12.020 | and we're masking the fact

01:36:13.340 | that we don't actually find it very appetizing.

01:36:15.620 | So we're kind of teaching ourselves

01:36:17.340 | to overcome our instinct with food.

01:36:20.340 | We're saying, here's this kind of bland base substrate,

01:36:24.220 | not very interesting, I'm not like sparking to it.

01:36:27.260 | Awesome, put sugar and salt on it.

01:36:29.380 | This up the hyper-processed flavor profile.

01:36:31.460 | Great, done.

01:36:32.620 | And then you're sparked to it.

01:36:34.380 | That's a very short road,

01:36:35.940 | and that's I think a lot of the health problems we have now

01:36:38.660 | is because we're masking flavors

01:36:41.220 | and basically trying to get ourselves

01:36:43.100 | to move down this path of the same way we behave

01:36:44.980 | around all hyper-processed foods.

01:36:46.900 | And that gets us into a mess with our health.

01:36:49.220 | So if we can get things like game

01:36:51.420 | where people love the flavor out of the gate,

01:36:53.740 | but it's natural, simple, minimally processed,

01:36:55.700 | that's a win.

01:36:56.540 | It reverses that hyper-processing trend

01:37:01.420 | that we're on as a human species.

01:37:03.940 | And that's the promise of regenerative farming,

01:37:07.060 | that's the promise of hunting.

01:37:09.060 | Obviously, the former can be scaled,

01:37:10.740 | the hunting, I think, cannot be scaled.

01:37:14.060 | But in many ways, the hunting inspires the world

01:37:17.700 | that this is the right way to eat.

01:37:19.500 | Yes.

01:37:20.340 | And that naturally leads to then the humane farming,

01:37:27.020 | regenerative farming idea,

01:37:28.700 | which is this idea that hunting represents.

01:37:31.820 | How do you scale that?

01:37:32.980 | Well, if you look at like,

01:37:34.540 | we're talking about people use

01:37:36.140 | the sort of marketing language of like happy cows

01:37:38.260 | or that kind of thing.

01:37:39.620 | If you're talking about the happiest animals,

01:37:40.820 | it's wild animals.

01:37:42.140 | So if you wonder why these practices are good,

01:37:45.380 | talk to hunters.

01:37:46.420 | You're talking about animals

01:37:47.300 | that have lived in their evolutionary capacity,

01:37:50.100 | who have played their role in the ecosystem,

01:37:51.460 | who've lived their meaning of life.

01:37:54.340 | And that's a very powerfully different kind of role

01:37:58.460 | than livestock production.

01:38:00.620 | So I think if we can make our livestock production

01:38:02.940 | as similar to wild as possible,

01:38:05.420 | then we're a lot of steps closer.

01:38:07.500 | So you said the animals are happiest in the wild

01:38:10.420 | and that's where they find meaning.

01:38:12.500 | What about us, the human animal?

01:38:14.940 | What's the meaning for us, do you think?

01:38:16.900 | You've monitored the life cycle of a lot of living beings.

01:38:21.900 | You ever look in the mirror and think like,

01:38:23.900 | why the hell are we humans here?

01:38:25.500 | I mean, thriving, reducing suffering, creating goodness.

01:38:32.300 | I mean, those are the things I see in animals' behavior.

01:38:36.220 | They're mostly interested in reducing suffering

01:38:39.860 | and nurturing, right?

01:38:42.940 | Those are the things that I think evolutionarily.

01:38:45.380 | And we humans are just clever

01:38:46.740 | and we wanna be able to try to do that

01:38:48.700 | at a bigger and bigger scale.

01:38:50.180 | As much as possible, reduce the suffering in the world.

01:38:55.260 | And somehow that alleviates us of our own suffering.

01:38:58.580 | That's the Russian thing.

01:38:59.740 | Life is suffering.

01:39:01.020 | And somehow helping others alleviates it.

01:39:03.940 | And come up with creative solutions to do that.

01:39:07.420 | That's really interesting.

01:39:08.740 | It's almost consciousness is the thing that led to suffering

01:39:16.100 | but it also led to the desire to alleviate the suffering.

01:39:19.900 | It's a feedback loop.

01:39:22.060 | Consciousness creates suffering and the desire

01:39:25.460 | to alleviate it.

01:39:26.380 | Is there yet a pretty non-linear life?

01:39:30.260 | Your parents were professors.

01:39:32.020 | You have done a lot of sort of incredible things

01:39:36.620 | that many would say kinda like,

01:39:38.740 | "How the hell are you gonna get this done?"

01:39:40.620 | Is there advice you can give to young people today?

01:39:44.180 | Like high school, college,

01:39:45.940 | about how to live a similarly non-linear crazy life

01:39:51.340 | and accomplish, be as successful as you have been?

01:39:54.460 | About whether it's just their career or life in general.

01:39:59.300 | The greatest gifts I've been given

01:40:04.020 | have come from pursuing curiosity.

01:40:06.900 | Just trying to understand the thing you're curious about

01:40:13.300 | and allowing yourself to be curious about it

01:40:14.940 | and just going with it.

01:40:16.460 | And also pursuing things that are like deeply joyful for me.

01:40:21.460 | Not what society wants but you just personally.

01:40:25.580 | Just on your own, you're happy that you did it.

01:40:27.020 | And that's something that in the times

01:40:28.580 | when I've strayed from that, my life has been harder.

01:40:32.100 | So it's fundamentally what are we on earth to do?

01:40:37.700 | To live and thrive.

01:40:39.180 | And so pursuing things that are curious

01:40:44.180 | and satisfying and interesting and joyful

01:40:47.900 | and allow me to grow.

01:40:50.380 | So I made a number of choices to do things

01:40:57.620 | that were more complicated

01:40:58.980 | and kind of not considered cool at the time.

01:41:03.820 | Although now it's cool to work on farms.

01:41:05.420 | It wasn't when I started my career in animal agriculture.

01:41:08.460 | And it was like, but just deeply interesting to me.

01:41:11.940 | And I felt like there was just lots to learn.

01:41:14.260 | And so that's been the path for me

01:41:17.300 | is like going for something that's like curious and hard

01:41:19.900 | and kind of sticking with it and being open to it.

01:41:22.620 | And growing elements that give me joy through that.

01:41:27.620 | So I also, for people who are starting out in their careers

01:41:33.780 | and wanna do something different too,

01:41:34.860 | it's like get out of your comfort.

01:41:37.540 | Go to a place that you've got something to learn from

01:41:39.380 | and let it teach you that.

01:41:40.340 | And you'll get beat up.

01:41:42.380 | Like I got beat up by that experience.

01:41:44.300 | Like it was really hard.

01:41:46.140 | I laugh about now working for, insistently for T's and M's.

01:41:50.500 | I mean, like, and the funny experiences I had there,

01:41:52.860 | but it was hard.

01:41:53.700 | I was lonely and I cried a lot.

01:41:55.140 | It was stressful.

01:41:55.980 | It was like, it was hard.

01:41:57.100 | It was really hard.

01:41:57.940 | - When you're inside of it,

01:41:58.760 | you didn't know how it's gonna turn out.

01:41:59.940 | You didn't know it was gonna turn out well.

01:42:00.780 | - And I'm like, why didn't I get a job

01:42:02.820 | doing something that all my friends are doing?

01:42:04.820 | And I didn't speak the language.

01:42:06.660 | I had to learn foreign language and learn how to function.

01:42:09.340 | And it like, it was very lonely and very challenging,

01:42:12.060 | but then that's where my resilience started to grow.

01:42:15.580 | So the things I learned there

01:42:17.180 | ended up just being about resilience

01:42:19.020 | and understanding the language of subtlety in meaning.

01:42:23.380 | So that's something that's carried me through my life.

01:42:25.360 | But it was a curiosity about cheese making

01:42:27.340 | and about like just living in a village that was there.

01:42:29.620 | I'm like, wouldn't it be amazing

01:42:30.460 | just to live in a really rural village?

01:42:32.220 | - And then you just went with it.

01:42:33.060 | - And I just like, this seems incredible

01:42:34.500 | and have a place where you can, you know,

01:42:36.740 | and there's like, the people seem interesting,

01:42:39.820 | the food seems good.

01:42:40.660 | And let's just like try this and see what I can learn.

01:42:43.660 | And that, like putting yourself out of your comfort zone

01:42:47.140 | in a place where you have a chance to learn and grow

01:42:49.900 | is the secret because it's, you grow through discomfort.

01:42:54.900 | You know, people think that you grow

01:42:56.420 | when you get into this environment

01:42:58.340 | where everything's like kind of sailing along,

01:43:00.700 | but like growth actually comes through pain.

01:43:03.660 | You know, it's like, you know,

01:43:05.340 | growth comes from being cut down and beat down

01:43:07.180 | and having to re regrow and double down.

01:43:10.140 | And so that kind of opportunity, you have to seek it out.

01:43:13.860 | You have to put yourself in the line of fire a bit.

01:43:16.140 | If the situation sucks,

01:43:18.260 | it's a sign that you might be doing something right

01:43:21.180 | in the sense that you're on the path

01:43:22.940 | at the end of which you'll be a better person

01:43:26.100 | if you allow yourself to grow in that way,

01:43:27.820 | like as opposed to resisting it,

01:43:29.500 | just going along with the journey and persevering.

01:43:33.420 | And that ended us up in this incredible place.

01:43:37.020 | This whole conversation, I'll probably overlay a video.

01:43:40.420 | I'm looking at a gorgeous mountain

01:43:43.180 | and it's an incredible farm.

01:43:45.420 | Thank you so much for a meal yesterday.

01:43:47.260 | That was incredible.

01:43:48.260 | The cheese, the fish eggs,

01:43:51.340 | just everything about this place.

01:43:53.700 | Looking up, you can see the stars.

01:43:56.180 | The stars at night are beautiful

01:43:58.100 | and there's a peacefulness to it.

01:44:00.100 | I had a pretty hard week actually,

01:44:02.900 | just emotionally in many ways.

01:44:05.540 | And just coming here,

01:44:06.460 | it's immediately so much of it is lifted.

01:44:08.300 | So I really deeply appreciate Anya

01:44:11.380 | that you would invite me here

01:44:12.980 | and that you would have this conversation.

01:44:14.300 | This was really awesome.

01:44:16.220 | So thank you so much.

01:44:17.420 | - Thank you.

01:44:18.260 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:44:21.140 | with Anya Fernald.

01:44:22.300 | And thank you to Gala Games,

01:44:24.420 | Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic and Fundrise.

01:44:28.580 | Check them out in the description to support this podcast.

01:44:32.060 | And now let me leave you with some words

01:44:33.860 | from the ancient Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu.

01:44:36.220 | "Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished."

01:44:41.140 | Thank you for listening.

01:44:43.180 | I hope to see you next time.

01:44:45.220 | (upbeat music)

01:44:47.820 | (upbeat music)

01:44:50.420 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Anya Fernald: Regenerative Farming and the Art of Cooking Meat | Lex Fridman Podcast #203

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