LIVE EVENT Q&A: Dr. Andrew Huberman Question & Answer in Toronto, ON

00:00:00.000 | - Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,

00:00:02.260 | where we discuss science and science-based tools

00:00:04.900 | for everyday life.

00:00:05.900 | Recently, the Huberman Lab hosted a live event

00:00:11.540 | at the Meridian Theater in Toronto, Ontario.

00:00:14.500 | The event consisted of a lecture entitled

00:00:16.140 | The Brain-Body Contract,

00:00:17.380 | followed by a question and answer session.

00:00:19.700 | We wanted to make sure that the question and answer session

00:00:21.980 | was available to everybody,

00:00:23.380 | regardless of who could attend in person.

00:00:25.660 | I also want to make sure to thank the sponsors

00:00:27.620 | at that event, which were AG1 and 8Sleep.

00:00:30.980 | 8Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating,

00:00:33.540 | and sleep tracking capacity.

00:00:35.280 | One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep

00:00:37.440 | is to make sure that the temperature

00:00:38.820 | of your sleeping environment is correct.

00:00:40.540 | And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep,

00:00:43.140 | your body temperature actually has to drop

00:00:44.800 | by about one to three degrees.

00:00:46.500 | And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized,

00:00:49.620 | your body temperature actually has to increase

00:00:51.560 | by about one to three degrees.

00:00:53.260 | With 8Sleep, you can program the temperature

00:00:54.940 | of your sleeping environment in the beginning, middle,

00:00:57.260 | and end of your night.

00:00:58.540 | It has a number of other features

00:00:59.700 | like tracking the amount of rapid eye movement

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00:01:02.940 | things that are essential to really dialing in

00:01:05.140 | the perfect night's sleep for you.

00:01:06.740 | I've been sleeping on an 8Sleep mattress cover

00:01:08.340 | for well over two years now,

00:01:10.020 | and it has greatly improved my sleep.

00:01:11.920 | I fall asleep far more quickly,

00:01:13.700 | I wake up far less often in the middle of the night,

00:01:15.900 | and I wake up feeling far more refreshed than I ever did

00:01:18.740 | prior to using an 8Sleep mattress cover.

00:01:21.340 | If you'd like to try 8Sleep,

00:01:22.620 | you can go to 8sleep.com/huberman

00:01:25.260 | to save $150 off their pod three cover.

00:01:28.140 | 8Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK,

00:01:30.940 | select countries in the EU and Australia.

00:01:33.020 | Again, that's 8sleep.com/huberman.

00:01:35.900 | AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink.

00:01:39.620 | I've been taking AG1 since 2012,

00:01:42.260 | so I'm delighted that they sponsored the live event.

00:01:45.060 | The reason I started taking AG1

00:01:46.800 | and the reason I still drink AG1 once or twice a day

00:01:50.100 | is that it provides all of my foundational nutritional needs.

00:01:52.860 | That is, it provides insurance that I get the proper amounts

00:01:56.420 | of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber

00:01:59.260 | to ensure optimal mental health,

00:02:01.300 | physical health, and performance.

00:02:03.460 | If you'd like to try AG1,

00:02:04.860 | you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman

00:02:08.140 | to claim a special offer.

00:02:09.700 | They're giving away five free travel packs

00:02:11.460 | plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

00:02:14.300 | Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman

00:02:17.620 | to claim that special offer.

00:02:19.440 | And now without further ado,

00:02:20.900 | the question and answer session from our live event

00:02:23.300 | at the Meridian Theater in Toronto, Ontario.

00:02:26.200 | (upbeat music)

00:02:28.780 | Okay, what motivated me to do the guest series

00:02:43.660 | with Paul Conti?

00:02:44.500 | Okay, so first of all, for those of you that don't know,

00:02:46.440 | Paul Conti is a psychiatrist.

00:02:48.100 | He's a Stanford and Harvard trained psychiatrist.

00:02:51.500 | And I wanted to do the series with Paul for several reasons.

00:02:54.980 | And we initiated that series.

00:02:57.880 | First of all, he's incredibly talented as a clinician.

00:03:01.860 | And yet, despite having written an excellent book

00:03:04.820 | about trauma, I felt that two things were true for sure.

00:03:09.440 | One is that most people won't get the opportunity

00:03:11.180 | to work with Paul, sadly, he's time limited.

00:03:14.580 | And second, that his expertise is incredibly vast,

00:03:18.720 | not just restricted to trauma.

00:03:20.700 | Traumas, if understood, can be transmuted

00:03:23.380 | into deep sources of knowledge

00:03:25.980 | that other people can benefit from.

00:03:27.380 | And indeed, what I found in Paul, as I got to know him,

00:03:31.440 | is that he has just profound insight

00:03:34.340 | into the unconscious mind.

00:03:36.400 | And people had long asked me in and around the podcast,

00:03:39.900 | what about the subconscious?

00:03:41.080 | What about the unconscious?

00:03:42.180 | And I was of the mind that the supercomputer

00:03:46.360 | of the human brain is the forebrain.

00:03:48.140 | The thinking, planning, context setting piece

00:03:50.380 | right behind our forehead.

00:03:51.980 | So it's the reason that we're not the house cats.

00:03:55.060 | The house cats are the house cats.

00:03:56.700 | And that's the reason we're the curators of the planet.

00:03:59.140 | But Paul said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:04:01.700 | The unconscious mind is the supercomputer of the mind.

00:04:04.780 | I'm like, well, that sounds great,

00:04:05.820 | but how do we understand the unconscious mind?

00:04:08.520 | And he has a really biological

00:04:10.140 | and psychological and psychiatric understanding

00:04:13.040 | of the unconscious.

00:04:14.000 | And in that series, he talks about these so-called cupboards

00:04:17.160 | that we can look into in order to better understand

00:04:20.120 | our unconscious mind in order to allow our unconscious mind

00:04:23.820 | to teach us things about ourselves that are useful.

00:04:26.780 | And there are three main places where our unconscious

00:04:31.000 | teaches us useful things that allow us to be more conscious

00:04:33.700 | of the way that our brain is working in useful ways.

00:04:36.300 | The first is in these liminal states

00:04:39.700 | between waking and sleep.

00:04:42.080 | It really does seem to be the case that when,

00:04:45.780 | surprise, surprise, we're completely still,

00:04:48.460 | and we're emerging from or we're dropping into states

00:04:52.540 | of reduced autonomic arousal, but our level of thought,

00:04:57.180 | if you will, is still active enough that we are aware,

00:05:00.020 | maybe even lucid dreams, and also in dreams,

00:05:02.900 | our unconscious mind uses, as I think Jung and Freud

00:05:07.140 | pretty well understood, symbols to teach us things,

00:05:10.760 | but everything's flipped in there.

00:05:12.220 | Gender's flipped, like just 'cause you're having a conflict

00:05:16.140 | with somebody in your life who's a man doesn't mean

00:05:19.140 | that that person shows up as a man.

00:05:20.420 | They could show up as an animal, so species are flipped.

00:05:22.980 | The symbols become mish-mashed, but Paul made it very clear

00:05:26.460 | that all this can be parsed if you do a certain kind

00:05:29.540 | of introspective work, and I thought that would mean

00:05:32.020 | a lot of talk therapy that people would,

00:05:33.980 | how are we gonna get people to learn how to do talk therapy

00:05:36.000 | by themselves, we wanna keep things as much independent

00:05:40.660 | of cost and things like that, and the practices

00:05:42.900 | he started talking about were incredibly simple.

00:05:45.780 | Things like mirror work, some of the psychologists

00:05:48.980 | in the room will be familiar with this.

00:05:50.580 | I thought, mirror work, what is that?

00:05:52.300 | And he said literally, people trying to activate

00:05:55.560 | their unconscious, or excuse me, access their unconscious

00:06:00.420 | in sleep by a practice of staring into the mirror

00:06:03.860 | for some period of time while awake and reflecting on self

00:06:07.560 | and aspirations and the idea of the body as a container,

00:06:10.400 | all this stuff, even for a kid from Northern California,

00:06:12.940 | sound really woo new agey, but here it's scripted by Paul

00:06:17.940 | into a formal structure that one can use to parse

00:06:21.480 | your own mental health and enhance mental health.

00:06:24.300 | So that was the reason for doing the series,

00:06:26.400 | and especially the episode on relationships,

00:06:29.200 | not just romantic relationships, I found hasn't come out yet

00:06:32.080 | incredibly interesting because he talked about how

00:06:34.980 | in his clinical experience, virtually all the stuff

00:06:38.540 | that people pay attention to in relational stuff

00:06:42.040 | is are they a narcissist, are they obsessive,

00:06:45.640 | is this person a musician versus whether or not

00:06:48.420 | I'm an accountant, are we compatible,

00:06:50.460 | that none of that stuff predicts anything

00:06:53.340 | as well as the balance of these three drives,

00:06:56.180 | the aggressive drive, the pleasure drive,

00:06:57.940 | and the so-called generative drive.

00:07:00.040 | And I found it to be fascinating and I'm excited

00:07:02.920 | for that episode and the other episodes to come out,

00:07:04.540 | but basically 'cause Paul's brilliant and he makes the,

00:07:07.020 | what I consider pretty obscure and opaque,

00:07:11.120 | very clear and concrete, and there are a bunch

00:07:12.960 | of worksheets, again, all available at zero cost,

00:07:15.260 | and none of them requiring that you do therapy

00:07:18.020 | with anybody if you choose not to.

00:07:19.700 | This is all the kind of work one could do on oneself.

00:07:22.840 | And the last thing I'll say about this is,

00:07:25.060 | and I should have said this first,

00:07:26.180 | is that the primary motivation was we did a series

00:07:28.460 | with Dr. Andy Galpin on physical fitness,

00:07:31.740 | why isn't there a series on mental fitness, right?

00:07:34.540 | Like, what is that?

00:07:35.480 | Why do we talk so much about mental health when we're,

00:07:38.900 | and it's usually a conversation about mental illness,

00:07:41.020 | what people should have tools and practices

00:07:43.020 | that are zero cost, I believe, to be able to introspect

00:07:46.600 | in a structured way and enhance their mental health

00:07:49.460 | independent of their level of income.

00:07:52.300 | And I think Paul was the guy to do it,

00:07:53.840 | and we'll do more of that with other people as well,

00:07:57.200 | because no single episode about any topic or series

00:08:00.180 | can exhaustively cover any topic,

00:08:02.740 | although Lord knows we will try.

00:08:04.860 | Okay, next question.

00:08:07.180 | What are the recommended protocols and best practices

00:08:09.060 | to enhance emotional resilience and develop effective

00:08:11.220 | responses during highly triggering situations?

00:08:13.020 | You're asking the wrong guy.

00:08:15.000 | (audience laughing)

00:08:18.100 | Yeah, I mean, I don't snap, I don't snap.

00:08:22.520 | I was a wild teenager, but I don't snap.

00:08:24.840 | I'm not the aggressor, but I do have a snap button,

00:08:28.240 | and it's been pushed before.

00:08:30.660 | And I have to say, when that happens,

00:08:32.380 | it's really kind of a scary thing, not to me, right?

00:08:35.940 | And it's been many years,

00:08:36.980 | but I think anyone who's hit that threshold

00:08:40.060 | where you just try not to say something, you say it anyway,

00:08:43.780 | you know, that's usually how it shows up for people.

00:08:46.660 | I think we hear the statements like be responsive,

00:08:53.580 | not reactive, okay?

00:08:56.840 | That's why I became a biologist,

00:08:58.880 | 'cause stuff like that makes no sense to me.

00:09:01.940 | In that moment, how are you responsive, not reactive?

00:09:05.040 | So to me, it was like, what are the tools?

00:09:07.080 | Clearly, as you go up that continuum of autonomic arousal,

00:09:10.040 | it becomes much harder to do whatever that means, right?

00:09:14.380 | So that hence the tools for reducing stress in real time.

00:09:18.900 | I think the one that we haven't emphasized so much

00:09:21.360 | on the podcast, and by the way,

00:09:25.400 | thanks to some great therapy that was not voluntary,

00:09:28.400 | I was able to, you know, I was a wild kid,

00:09:31.800 | a wild, wild kid, hung around with wild kids,

00:09:34.300 | and things were pretty different then,

00:09:36.320 | and we worked it out, you know?

00:09:39.360 | But I think nowadays it's wonderful

00:09:40.720 | because I think people are more conscious

00:09:42.120 | of the need to understand their nervous system,

00:09:44.800 | their own psychology.

00:09:45.780 | That wasn't as common back then.

00:09:48.440 | In fact, I hid the fact that I had to do therapy

00:09:51.120 | for a long time, thinking, wow,

00:09:52.720 | like everyone's gonna think I'm crazy.

00:09:54.040 | They did call me crazy.

00:09:55.460 | You know, I think things have really changed.

00:09:56.940 | I think the last 20 years have brought about

00:09:58.540 | a profound shift in the way that we think

00:10:01.200 | about our own species and what are useful tools

00:10:04.400 | and practices, and I think that one of the things

00:10:07.380 | that is abundantly clear is that that threshold

00:10:12.380 | for a stress response really is different

00:10:16.500 | for different people, different in different situations,

00:10:19.380 | but that it is something that can be practiced

00:10:22.500 | and elevated, and in terms of not getting near

00:10:27.140 | that trigger point through the types of practices

00:10:30.260 | I talked about earlier, getting more comfortable

00:10:32.100 | with adrenaline circulating in your system

00:10:34.420 | is what it's really about, frankly.

00:10:36.540 | But of course it all starts with a good night's sleep,

00:10:38.960 | right, it's gonna make you far less reactive,

00:10:41.140 | but of course when you're stressed,

00:10:42.580 | that's often when you're not getting good sleep.

00:10:45.840 | So I think that ultimately that our ability

00:10:48.200 | to, as you know, more emotional resilience

00:10:53.200 | and effective responses during triggering situations

00:10:55.880 | is really the consequence of practices

00:10:58.340 | of taking good care outside of those situations.

00:11:01.480 | And then of course inevitably there will be situations

00:11:03.500 | where people get triggered, and it's actually interesting

00:11:07.320 | to see the way that people behave online

00:11:09.980 | and the fact that many people, in fact in science as well,

00:11:13.000 | have literally lost their jobs for not being able

00:11:16.600 | to control their thumbs.

00:11:18.260 | It's kind of, we're in an odd time

00:11:20.780 | where there's the distancing of doing things online

00:11:23.820 | as opposed to in person where people somehow engage

00:11:27.120 | in saying things and doing things

00:11:28.800 | that they wouldn't in person.

00:11:30.300 | But I think that ultimately it's the consequence

00:11:33.780 | of good self-care, and this gets actually back

00:11:36.700 | to some of the things that are covered in the Conti series.

00:11:38.700 | You know, we hear about self-care as we think

00:11:41.460 | that means massages, which are great by the way,

00:11:43.920 | and we think that that is about exercise

00:11:46.140 | and that's wonderful.

00:11:46.980 | But much of self-care is about really making sure

00:11:51.440 | that our nervous system is in the state

00:11:52.860 | that we need it to be in in order to go about our day.

00:11:55.940 | And I think this is why morning routines

00:11:57.700 | and practices are so vital.

00:11:59.620 | I think that those set the stage

00:12:01.160 | for the emotional resilience.

00:12:03.380 | Those set the stage for avoiding getting triggered,

00:12:06.900 | so to speak.

00:12:07.740 | I don't think there's a lot that one can do in real time

00:12:10.580 | except perhaps physiological size.

00:12:13.100 | So sorry to give you a sort of empty answer.

00:12:15.120 | I'm not a pessimist on this front,

00:12:16.500 | but I think that ultimately it's like saying,

00:12:19.120 | well, what if you have to scale the side of a building

00:12:21.220 | to get in and you locked yourself out?

00:12:22.700 | You know, what can you do to prepare for that?

00:12:24.000 | Well, you can buy a ladder, but if you don't have a ladder,

00:12:27.760 | you know, what you probably should do

00:12:30.280 | is be physically fit enough to climb up a railing

00:12:32.800 | or something like that and know how to pick a lock

00:12:34.620 | or something like that.

00:12:35.460 | So I think ultimately that it's the consequence

00:12:38.420 | of stuff that's done away from those triggering situations.

00:12:41.480 | Next question, please.

00:12:44.760 | How would you describe the brain activity of somebody

00:12:48.460 | when they're suddenly inspired

00:12:49.620 | and hadn't foster inspiration in your life?

00:12:51.360 | Well, I talked a little bit about this,

00:12:53.040 | but I will say that the best way to foster inspiration

00:12:56.960 | is in the words of the great Joe Strummer.

00:13:00.340 | They actually call it Strummer's law, no joke.

00:13:03.860 | No input, no output.

00:13:05.920 | I think one of the things that I've observed

00:13:07.960 | over and over again is that as much as we need

00:13:10.600 | to dedicate ourselves to our craft, to our families,

00:13:13.840 | to our friends, that ultimately our best ideas

00:13:18.380 | come from disparate experiences

00:13:20.960 | when we're not seeking a particular kind of input

00:13:24.440 | to get ideas.

00:13:25.920 | Now, maybe this practice of being completely still

00:13:28.600 | while being alert fosters a lot of,

00:13:32.040 | I think the way I understand it is more of a geysering up

00:13:35.420 | of stored information in the unconscious.

00:13:39.760 | That's how I think Rick would talk about it

00:13:41.960 | or Paul Conte would talk about it

00:13:43.680 | is geysering up from the unconscious

00:13:45.640 | because when we are focused on the outside world,

00:13:48.620 | we're taking in sensory information,

00:13:51.000 | exteroception as opposed to interoception.

00:13:54.280 | And of course that external sensory information

00:13:59.280 | that no input, no output is that those are the raw materials

00:14:03.680 | that our nervous system uses to construct ideas

00:14:06.160 | about anything.

00:14:07.800 | So my belief, and this is a practice I do every week

00:14:11.560 | is I make sure that at least once a week,

00:14:13.560 | I either walk or hike or run without any earphones.

00:14:17.440 | And I'm trying to get into states of wordlessness,

00:14:19.880 | states where I'm not digesting a podcast,

00:14:23.160 | where I'm not reading a book,

00:14:24.240 | where I'm not listening to a lecture,

00:14:25.620 | where I'm not in conversation,

00:14:27.460 | and essentially trying to turn off

00:14:30.280 | the linguistic narrative.

00:14:33.160 | We are a storytelling species.

00:14:36.380 | We tend to take all of our internal and external experience

00:14:40.000 | and construct things around language,

00:14:41.560 | but spoken language is not the language

00:14:45.340 | of the nervous system.

00:14:47.140 | The language of the nervous system

00:14:48.700 | still remains to be identified.

00:14:50.120 | It's something else.

00:14:51.160 | For people that think in feels,

00:14:52.620 | it will certainly incorporate that.

00:14:54.200 | Spoken language, of course, is important.

00:14:57.580 | And we have some core structures to spoken language.

00:15:00.160 | We covered this in the podcast episode

00:15:01.860 | with my friend Eddie Chang.

00:15:03.700 | But ultimately, the way to come up with new ideas

00:15:09.840 | of inspiration is going to be

00:15:11.200 | to collect the raw materials of experience

00:15:14.040 | and then give ourselves these periods,

00:15:16.320 | maybe even just five, 10 minutes.

00:15:17.700 | You have to lay around half the day

00:15:19.120 | doing nothing still, wide awake,

00:15:21.360 | and give those raw materials the opportunity

00:15:24.780 | to marinate and combine in whatever ways

00:15:28.140 | that are unique to you and then to geyser up.

00:15:31.440 | What inspiration looks like in the brain,

00:15:33.600 | we don't really know.

00:15:35.800 | There's awe.

00:15:37.240 | There's some studies about awe.

00:15:38.980 | But that's different.

00:15:40.840 | The word that better comes to mind is delight.

00:15:43.360 | Awe, in my mind, is something that we witness

00:15:47.120 | that sort of overwhelms our attention.

00:15:49.720 | Like, wow.

00:15:51.560 | Delight is when it somehow links up

00:15:54.480 | with our own internal narrative.

00:15:56.400 | I have something to do with what's happening.

00:15:59.000 | I'm not just here to witness it.

00:16:01.000 | Fireworks show, a really impressive fireworks show,

00:16:03.120 | is like awe.

00:16:04.520 | But there's nothing to do about it.

00:16:07.120 | It doesn't relate to anything about you, really.

00:16:10.440 | You're purely a spectator.

00:16:11.900 | Whereas delight is when you see something

00:16:13.660 | and it somehow links to something in your emotional

00:16:16.140 | or personal history or how you're wired,

00:16:19.960 | that now there's something to do about it.

00:16:21.740 | That's inspiration.

00:16:23.360 | And we don't understand where that exists in the brain

00:16:26.440 | or what that looks like.

00:16:27.720 | But I think we all recognize that feeling when it happens,

00:16:31.200 | and it's oh so wonderful.

00:16:33.380 | Okay, next question, please.

00:16:36.840 | How can Canadians fight the seasonal depression?

00:16:39.120 | Winters are too long here, okay.

00:16:42.440 | Okay, well, this gives me an opportunity to share with you

00:16:47.440 | what I think is one of the coolest things about our species.

00:16:51.280 | Notice I say that about many things.

00:16:54.120 | So we've talked about circadian rhythms, right?

00:16:57.560 | Sunrises, sunsets.

00:16:59.440 | And we get that information transmitted

00:17:01.800 | into our nervous system by looking at the sunrise.

00:17:04.920 | By the way, you don't have to watch the sun

00:17:06.320 | cross the horizon.

00:17:07.720 | It just needs to be low solar angle, low in the sky.

00:17:11.080 | Once it's overhead, it's a different signal.

00:17:13.520 | So low solar angle, that's what it's about.

00:17:15.180 | It's not necessarily about seeing the sun

00:17:17.000 | cross the horizon.

00:17:18.160 | By the way, someone the other day on my team said,

00:17:21.040 | "Wait, won't you get cataracts if you look at the sun?"

00:17:23.400 | Low solar angle sunlight is very unlikely to cause cataracts

00:17:27.360 | especially if you're just doing it 10 to 30 minutes.

00:17:29.340 | That solar, the sun overhead is when it's quite bright.

00:17:33.600 | Yes, indeed, some people are going to be

00:17:35.360 | at risk for cataracts.

00:17:36.320 | So ophthalmologists in the audience

00:17:38.460 | can attack me for that one.

00:17:39.420 | But it was our chair of ophthalmology at Stanford

00:17:41.120 | that said it, so I'm going to trust him.

00:17:43.000 | Okay.

00:17:43.840 | That's circadian 24 hour rhythms,

00:17:48.040 | but there's also these circannual rhythms.

00:17:50.200 | So if you're at a fairly Northern location on the planet,

00:17:53.900 | nights get very long, days get short in winter.

00:17:58.800 | What happens then?

00:17:59.660 | Well, melatonin, the hormone of darkness, right?

00:18:02.800 | Is essentially obliterated by light, by sunlight.

00:18:07.320 | So what's happening when days are 12 hours long,

00:18:11.680 | you have very little melatonin,

00:18:14.400 | the duration of the melatonin signal is very short.

00:18:17.100 | Then as you proceed into the fall,

00:18:18.920 | days are getting shorter, nights are getting longer,

00:18:20.640 | the duration of the melatonin signal

00:18:22.040 | is getting longer and longer.

00:18:24.240 | Then is, of course, in winter, there's a lot more darkness,

00:18:28.140 | melatonin signals are very long,

00:18:31.480 | daylight signals are very short because the days are short.

00:18:34.320 | So you can say, okay, well, that's obvious, thank goodness.

00:18:39.320 | But what that means is incredible.

00:18:42.440 | What that means is that you have a hormone, melatonin,

00:18:45.600 | that's secreted from your pineal gland,

00:18:48.280 | which Descartes called the seed of the soul,

00:18:51.200 | 'cause there's only one of them in the brain.

00:18:54.200 | I don't know how he came up with that one,

00:18:55.720 | but the pineal secretes melatonin

00:18:59.440 | and you suppress melatonin secretion with sunlight viewing.

00:19:03.480 | There's a couple of synapses in between the eye

00:19:05.360 | and the pineal, but it gets there up through the neck,

00:19:07.800 | basically cervical ganglion.

00:19:09.200 | What's wild, therefore, is that the location of the earth

00:19:15.440 | around the sun and the tilt of the earth is translated

00:19:19.440 | into a neural and then a hormonal signal in your brain,

00:19:23.260 | which to me is amazing.

00:19:25.760 | That literally means that the position of the earth

00:19:28.880 | around the sun and its tilt are translated

00:19:32.060 | into a physiological signal that's working unconsciously

00:19:35.200 | to tell your brain and body what time of year it is,

00:19:38.720 | but it doesn't care what time of year it is.

00:19:41.120 | It cares about where you are in this orbit about the sun.

00:19:45.320 | So if you think about when days are, say, eight hours long

00:19:50.320 | in the fall versus eight hours long in the spring,

00:19:55.400 | what's different?

00:19:56.920 | What's different is how long the signal was the day before.

00:20:00.720 | So the seasonal depression we now know

00:20:03.480 | is the consequence of the melatonin signal getting longer,

00:20:07.040 | not an absolute duration of the melatonin signal.

00:20:10.460 | In other words, in the spring when a day is eight hours long

00:20:15.460 | but yesterday the day was seven hours and 48 minutes long,

00:20:20.660 | your brain has a memory of how much melatonin

00:20:24.240 | was released the day before, much more,

00:20:27.240 | than that particular day.

00:20:29.240 | So it's a slow integrating clock.

00:20:31.360 | So this is a very roundabout way for me to teach you

00:20:34.280 | about the melatonin seasonal rhythm cycle

00:20:37.020 | and answer the question directly by saying,

00:20:39.320 | if you want to offset seasonal depression,

00:20:42.360 | what you want to do is extend the amount of bright light

00:20:45.360 | that you're getting in the morning slightly

00:20:47.480 | as days get shorter.

00:20:49.420 | But it's the extension of the bright light exposure.

00:20:51.800 | And if you can't do that with sunlight

00:20:53.080 | 'cause there's no sunlight 'cause you live in Toronto,

00:20:55.080 | not Toronto, what you want to do

00:20:58.320 | is find some artificial source that you can look at

00:21:01.320 | in the morning before you leave your home.

00:21:03.760 | And I haven't talked much about this on the podcast

00:21:05.860 | because our listeners are extended around the globe

00:21:08.000 | and not just in northern locations.

00:21:12.460 | But what this essentially means is getting

00:21:14.640 | maybe two to three minutes of bright light exposure

00:21:17.880 | as you're heading from fall into winter,

00:21:20.280 | bright light from an artificial source.

00:21:21.720 | You do not need to purchase a so-called sad lamp,

00:21:24.520 | one of these very expensive seasonal effect depression lamps.

00:21:28.940 | What I did was I purchased,

00:21:30.400 | 'cause I'm very sensitive to seasonal changes in light,

00:21:32.700 | even though I don't live very far north,

00:21:34.740 | is you can get a 900 lux drawing tablet.

00:21:37.880 | These are quite inexpensive.

00:21:39.480 | They're not zero cost, but quite inexpensive.

00:21:41.520 | And just put that on your desk

00:21:43.880 | or wherever you make your coffee in the morning,

00:21:47.020 | 90 minutes after you wake up, this sort of thing,

00:21:50.080 | and just get five or so minutes before you leave the house.

00:21:53.320 | And then as you extend into the winter,

00:21:56.360 | you don't have to be neurotic

00:21:57.400 | about increasing the duration every day.

00:21:59.760 | You could actually,

00:22:00.880 | the way these slow integrating clocks work,

00:22:02.960 | you could actually even just hold it

00:22:04.200 | a little bit closer each day.

00:22:05.600 | Don't burn your eyeballs out a little bit closer each day.

00:22:08.700 | But essentially if you just dose yourself

00:22:10.600 | with a little bit more bright light early in the day

00:22:12.960 | as you extend into winter,

00:22:14.920 | that will essentially trick the melatonin system

00:22:19.540 | into thinking that you're going from eight hours

00:22:22.120 | into 10 hours of light,

00:22:23.400 | as opposed to eight hours into six hours of light, okay?

00:22:27.760 | Very simple.

00:22:28.740 | And if you can't get one of these 900 lux tablets

00:22:31.240 | or something off a website,

00:22:33.100 | then you could do this with any bright incandescent bulb

00:22:37.440 | should work.

00:22:38.560 | Again, just be careful not to put it directly

00:22:41.040 | against your eyeball.

00:22:42.120 | Okay, next question, please.

00:22:44.720 | How do you increase neuroplasticity?

00:22:45.860 | Well, this is an opportunity to talk about something

00:22:48.660 | I should have said earlier,

00:22:49.540 | which is that ultimately whether or not

00:22:51.840 | you are triggering neuroplasticity through elevated focus

00:22:55.320 | or whether or not you're taking high dose psilocybin,

00:22:58.220 | your business, not mine,

00:23:00.000 | and we could talk about psychedelics if you want,

00:23:03.000 | just decriminalized in California

00:23:05.320 | or soon to be decriminalized.

00:23:07.220 | Cool, people are enthusiastic.

00:23:08.760 | Yeah, the one thing that,

00:23:10.720 | I've been pretty vocal about my belief

00:23:13.760 | that the data are really interesting to say the least

00:23:16.680 | about not microdosing.

00:23:19.480 | By the way, there's not a lot of evidence

00:23:21.320 | that microdosing is useful.

00:23:22.560 | I'm not saying it's not,

00:23:23.580 | but there are not a lot of clinical trials showing that,

00:23:26.260 | but the two macro dose with effective therapeutic support

00:23:30.740 | trials are very encouraging,

00:23:33.840 | not just for major depression,

00:23:35.380 | but also for various eating disorders,

00:23:37.720 | alcohol use disorder,

00:23:39.500 | which is by the way,

00:23:40.340 | the term that people are starting to shift to

00:23:42.440 | as opposed to alcoholism or alcoholic

00:23:44.640 | that's not alcohol use disorder,

00:23:47.140 | which is not to be politically correct,

00:23:49.600 | or just so you understand what they're talking about

00:23:51.760 | when they're talking about alcohol use disorder.

00:23:54.000 | Whether or not psilocybin,

00:23:57.000 | whether or not it's MDMA,

00:23:58.060 | whether or not it's frustration brought about

00:24:00.440 | by your inability to play an instrument

00:24:03.040 | and your determination to do so,

00:24:05.640 | it's in the end,

00:24:06.480 | it's all about deployment of these neuromodulators.

00:24:09.360 | Neuromodulators being some combination of dopamine,

00:24:12.880 | serotonin, acetylcholine or epinephrine,

00:24:17.080 | again, usually in combination.

00:24:19.000 | What's very clear is that the neuroplastic effects of MDMA,

00:24:22.340 | the neuroplastic effects of psilocybin

00:24:24.800 | are brought about by huge increases in serotonin.

00:24:27.960 | This is also can help us understand why for some years,

00:24:31.920 | and to some extent still now,

00:24:33.520 | it was thought that the SSRIs,

00:24:35.840 | the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors

00:24:37.700 | would be good treatments for depression.

00:24:39.560 | I think some people by the way,

00:24:40.900 | have experienced tremendous relief from the SSRIs.

00:24:43.620 | We don't want to demonize them.

00:24:45.780 | At the same time,

00:24:46.620 | it's very clear that depression

00:24:48.700 | is not simply low levels of serotonin.

00:24:51.140 | That's also not true.

00:24:52.920 | Hence why there's effective in some people,

00:24:57.240 | antidepressants like bupren that increase dopamine

00:25:02.240 | and epinephrine and not serotonin.

00:25:05.000 | The point here is that these neuromodulators,

00:25:07.660 | as they're called, allow for what?

00:25:09.780 | They allow for modulation of synapses,

00:25:11.860 | which effectively allows for neuroplasticity.

00:25:15.320 | I mean, ultimately, whether or not it's through talk therapy,

00:25:17.600 | Kundalini breathing, high-dose psilocybin, MDMA,

00:25:22.600 | or the combination, which I think is called a hippie flip.

00:25:25.980 | (audience laughing)

00:25:27.680 | Never done them together.

00:25:29.080 | I confess, never done them together.

00:25:30.880 | But have done them.

00:25:35.360 | (audience laughing)

00:25:36.680 | With a clinician, by the way,

00:25:38.320 | in legal circumstances, and not a lot,

00:25:41.300 | not often, that is,

00:25:44.240 | it's very clear that it's opening windows for plasticity.

00:25:47.900 | Now, what's intriguing,

00:25:48.940 | if we're gonna just talk about psychedelics for a second,

00:25:51.280 | is why a drug like MDMA, which increases dopamine,

00:25:54.340 | which, by the way, MDMA is methylenedioxymethamphetamine.

00:25:58.380 | Don't let anybody tell you it's something there.

00:26:00.220 | It's meth.

00:26:01.800 | It's meth.

00:26:02.720 | But it's meth with a lot of serotonin thrown in there, too.

00:26:07.140 | But it's meth.

00:26:08.460 | And it's clear that for the treatment of PTSD,

00:26:11.060 | it holds promise.

00:26:12.200 | It's not absolutely safe,

00:26:14.340 | especially for people with cardiac conditions.

00:26:16.400 | And if you're gonna go down that path,

00:26:18.660 | you want and need a skilled guide.

00:26:21.160 | And this is where I think the laws

00:26:22.280 | are really gonna have to pay careful attention

00:26:24.840 | to who and what is a skilled guide.

00:26:27.000 | And when it comes to psilocybin,

00:26:30.720 | the serotonin increase is what effectively causes

00:26:35.700 | broader connectivity in the brain.

00:26:37.480 | And what's interesting is that both of those drugs

00:26:39.980 | increase plasticity, mainly through increases in serotonin,

00:26:42.520 | but working on very different receptors.

00:26:44.680 | So they have different types and outputs of plasticity.

00:26:47.040 | What's interesting to me is that,

00:26:49.060 | because I'm a strong believer

00:26:50.160 | that children should not be doing psychedelics,

00:26:52.840 | nor should we be giving children psychedelics,

00:26:54.520 | is that the increases in connectivity in the brain

00:26:58.360 | that are the consequence of playing a musical instrument,

00:27:01.940 | or ideally an instrument with others as a child,

00:27:06.080 | mimic a lot of the broader scale connectivity,

00:27:09.040 | so-called resting network connectivity,

00:27:11.960 | that occurs when people take psychedelics as adults.

00:27:15.180 | In other words, and I can't emphasize this enough,

00:27:17.520 | and again, I failed at music, miserably.

00:27:19.660 | I'll tell you a story about that in a second.

00:27:21.340 | But getting kids to play an instrument,

00:27:25.340 | it's very clear improves their ability

00:27:28.880 | to learn all sorts of things for their entire life.

00:27:31.980 | It's just so, so important.

00:27:33.580 | I don't really know what to do about this,

00:27:35.200 | or who to shout out or talk to

00:27:36.640 | about keeping the arts active in schools,

00:27:40.600 | and physical education,

00:27:42.120 | but the idea that we would just train kids in math

00:27:44.240 | is just frightening,

00:27:45.440 | because if you want them to be truly good

00:27:46.940 | at math and science, you'd also have them play instruments.

00:27:50.060 | By the way, when I was a kid, I played the violin.

00:27:52.460 | My parents made me.

00:27:54.440 | It was not the instrument I wanted to play,

00:27:55.280 | and we have only one picture,

00:27:57.220 | and they taught me the Suzuki method.

00:27:59.340 | You're supposed to learn by ear,

00:28:00.420 | and there's one picture,

00:28:01.780 | and all the other kids have their bows up,

00:28:04.580 | and my bow is down,

00:28:06.020 | and I'm standing here on the stage,

00:28:07.300 | and my fly is down.

00:28:08.840 | (audience laughing)

00:28:10.740 | And that, and literally the neighbor's dog howled,

00:28:13.200 | and I quit after that concert.

00:28:15.040 | So I was traumatized,

00:28:16.900 | but they showed me the picture.

00:28:17.900 | My sister teased me relentlessly.

00:28:19.980 | So neuroplasticity, figure out your choice way

00:28:25.540 | to increase a neuromodulator,

00:28:27.660 | like serotonin or epinephrine, acetylcholine, or dopamine.

00:28:30.980 | I honestly would not encourage pharmacologic

00:28:34.540 | or psychedelic approaches as your primary entry point.

00:28:37.180 | I really don't.

00:28:38.060 | I think that there's a place for that

00:28:40.240 | in certain circumstances,

00:28:41.340 | but that would not be the primary entry point.

00:28:43.700 | Next question, please.

00:28:46.100 | What type of movement protocol do you recommend

00:28:48.660 | for somebody who's working from home,

00:28:50.580 | sitting behind the computer from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.?

00:28:53.620 | Oh, okay, well, couple things.

00:28:57.460 | I mean, I can make all sorts of recommendations

00:28:59.860 | like get up early and move,

00:29:03.060 | if you can take breaks and walk, this sort of thing.

00:29:05.340 | But let's assume that all of that is kind of understood,

00:29:09.120 | that there are certain forms of exercise

00:29:10.580 | that we should all be doing.

00:29:12.040 | I think now it's very clear,

00:29:13.220 | based on the beautiful work of Peter Attia,

00:29:15.380 | whose brother is in the audience, by the way, tonight.

00:29:17.760 | Yeah, yeah. (audience cheering)

00:29:19.180 | He's got a younger brother.

00:29:21.180 | He's got a younger brother.

00:29:22.180 | Can you imagine if Peter Attia was your older brother?

00:29:24.820 | Imagine.

00:29:26.140 | It'd be pretty cool.

00:29:27.140 | I sort of adopt people as siblings,

00:29:30.300 | 'cause they don't know it, but I do.

00:29:31.500 | But I just assume Peter was my older brother,

00:29:33.740 | but turns out he has a younger brother already.

00:29:36.620 | And Peter's essentially hammered home the truth,

00:29:39.180 | which is that we should all be getting

00:29:40.540 | somewhere between 150 and 200 minutes

00:29:42.500 | of so-called zone two cardio,

00:29:44.260 | where we're walking a lot and we're moving about,

00:29:46.780 | where we can just barely hold a conversation.

00:29:49.260 | I notice people in Toronto seem to walk a lot,

00:29:51.820 | so that's great.

00:29:52.660 | And then three days a week or so of resistance training,

00:29:56.660 | and there are a bunch of other mobility things

00:29:58.260 | that we should all do so that we don't fall

00:29:59.560 | and break our hips, 'cause that's, we're another bone,

00:30:01.980 | 'cause that's another way that people really limit

00:30:03.980 | their health spin and lifespan, and so on and so forth.

00:30:06.380 | But two things that can make being at a desk,

00:30:09.900 | which I loathe, even though I like to learn,

00:30:11.740 | I hate sitting still, you can do the standing desk thing.

00:30:14.780 | I do that by stacking boxes.

00:30:16.620 | The other thing that was interesting,

00:30:18.140 | did anyone see this study out of the University of Texas?

00:30:20.860 | I think it was in Houston this last year

00:30:22.820 | about the soleus push-up.

00:30:24.460 | Did anyone see this?

00:30:25.480 | This is pretty interesting.

00:30:27.060 | So the soleus, this wider, flat muscle

00:30:30.320 | below the gastrocnemius of the calf

00:30:32.420 | is a really unique muscle in the human body.

00:30:34.360 | It's 1% of the total human musculature,

00:30:36.640 | but it has an ability,

00:30:38.860 | what we'll assume to be for obvious reasons,

00:30:42.200 | to dramatically shift fuel utilization in the body.

00:30:46.740 | What they did in this study was they had people

00:30:49.100 | who were sitting for three or four hours a day

00:30:51.720 | just simply raise their heel.

00:30:53.180 | Seems almost silly, right?

00:30:54.180 | They call it a soleus push-up.

00:30:55.760 | When I called it that online,

00:30:56.940 | I literally got attacked by the gym bros

00:30:59.460 | telling me that's a seated calf raise.

00:31:02.080 | Okay, you know, I mean, like, okay.

00:31:06.180 | No wonder they, you know, this whole bro science thing

00:31:08.640 | gets kind of, you know, people get really aggressive.

00:31:11.820 | They lift their heel and they're pushing their toe down.

00:31:15.540 | And some people think of it as bouncing the knee,

00:31:17.420 | but it's really about pushing the toe down

00:31:18.920 | and lifting the heel.

00:31:19.760 | So they just simply had these sedentary people

00:31:22.300 | do this heel raise.

00:31:23.340 | And what they saw was that there was a dramatic,

00:31:27.100 | highly statistically significant increase

00:31:30.540 | in blood glucose utilization and reduction

00:31:33.060 | in both insulin levels during that activity

00:31:37.220 | and around the clock.

00:31:38.380 | Really interesting.

00:31:39.300 | What they were doing was mimicking some aspect of walking.

00:31:42.300 | Now, is it as good as walking?

00:31:44.180 | No, but if you are stuck behind a, you know,

00:31:47.680 | working from home, sitting behind the computer

00:31:49.260 | from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., what they found

00:31:52.420 | was that people getting into this unconscious pattern

00:31:54.920 | of lifting their heel over and over

00:31:56.240 | and shifting back and forth mimicked a lot of the effects

00:31:59.060 | of walking, it's not a replacement for exercise,

00:32:01.240 | but the shifts in glucose and insulin output

00:32:05.100 | and utilization, excuse me, utilization and output

00:32:07.820 | respectively were very impressive.

00:32:10.780 | And this group down at the University of Texas in Houston

00:32:14.660 | is starting to incorporate this into people

00:32:16.840 | who have limited mobility.

00:32:18.440 | And it doesn't seem like other limb movements can do this.

00:32:22.520 | There's something special about the soleus.

00:32:24.220 | It was designed, in air quotes, to be a muscle

00:32:29.220 | that's used repeatedly over extended hours of time

00:32:33.020 | and that has this unique pathway of fuel utilization.

00:32:35.720 | So is it going to cure obesity?

00:32:37.440 | No, but if you're stuck behind a desk,

00:32:38.740 | that would be something useful.

00:32:40.060 | I have this little fidget thing.

00:32:42.160 | I was too lazy to build one, but I found one online

00:32:45.020 | for a couple bucks where you just, when you stand

00:32:47.060 | at your desk, you just kind of kick it back and forth.

00:32:49.580 | Anyone seen these?

00:32:50.540 | They're kind of cool.

00:32:51.540 | Then you just kind of kick them back and forth

00:32:53.020 | and some people will treadmill at the desk.

00:32:54.560 | I can't do that, I can't do that many things,

00:32:56.300 | but I also am still like working on this one.

00:32:58.540 | I can't quite do that.

00:33:00.620 | Next question, please.

00:33:02.180 | My morning meditation consists of, okay,

00:33:04.500 | and then I think we're about out of time,

00:33:05.940 | but the, yeah, so my morning meditation

00:33:09.440 | is not really a meditation, it's a perceptual exercise.

00:33:12.560 | And that perceptual exercise has a weird name

00:33:17.560 | 'cause I gave it a weird name.

00:33:19.400 | And I didn't intend to sound mystical

00:33:22.460 | and I don't want credit for it,

00:33:24.000 | but I call it space time bridging, but it's not that.

00:33:27.420 | What it really is is to me, one of the most interesting

00:33:30.680 | things about the nervous system is our ability

00:33:32.520 | to orient in different time domains.

00:33:35.640 | This gets a little bit abstract,

00:33:37.360 | but we know from states of high stress

00:33:39.280 | that we start fine slicing time, we know this.

00:33:42.680 | The world becomes like a slow motion video

00:33:44.520 | because frame rate has increased.

00:33:46.640 | As a vision neuroscientist, I can tell you

00:33:49.120 | that in my laboratory, we were doing studies

00:33:50.840 | with virtual reality where we can crank up

00:33:52.540 | people's level of stress by giving them

00:33:54.060 | certain visual stimuli and then their ability

00:33:56.240 | to parse information is clearly increasing

00:34:00.080 | in the time domain, their fine slicing,

00:34:02.180 | much in the same way that when you look

00:34:03.320 | at a slow motion video, somebody dunking a basketball

00:34:05.840 | or something of that sort is because

00:34:06.840 | the frame rate went up, right?

00:34:09.300 | So when we are in high alertness states,

00:34:11.540 | our frame rate increases.

00:34:13.840 | When we're very relaxed, our frame rate decreases.

00:34:17.180 | So if you're Rick Rubin-ing and you're lying there

00:34:19.220 | looking at the sky, your frame rate is probably slower

00:34:23.180 | than if you're hyper focused on oh my goodness,

00:34:25.280 | like you said, imagine a dreadful situation

00:34:29.000 | where somebody sends you a text message.

00:34:30.520 | Well, let's make it positive.

00:34:31.740 | Somebody's having a child in your family

00:34:33.500 | and you're like, is it a healthy, are mom and baby okay?

00:34:37.660 | Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

00:34:40.100 | I mean, seconds feel like minutes.

00:34:42.140 | Minutes feel like hours because you're fine slicing time.

00:34:44.660 | Okay, and then dah, dah, dah, mom and baby are fine.

00:34:46.780 | Okay, great, happy story ending.

00:34:49.020 | Great, so when we're very relaxed,

00:34:51.140 | we tend to bin time more broadly.

00:34:53.220 | Now, it's also true that your visual system

00:34:55.940 | and your perception of time are inextricably linked

00:34:59.800 | such that if you close your eyes and you focused

00:35:02.300 | on your internal state, you are fine slicing time

00:35:07.300 | and the second hand, if you will, is more or less

00:35:10.860 | the metronome rather is your breathing

00:35:13.140 | and your heart rate combined.

00:35:16.660 | When you open your eyes and you look at something

00:35:18.580 | in your immediate environment, when you move

00:35:21.300 | from so-called interoception to exteroception,

00:35:23.900 | you start, your perception of time shifts

00:35:27.100 | fairly dramatically and you now perceive time

00:35:30.620 | according to, believe it or not, the speed of images

00:35:32.740 | moving in your environment relative to you

00:35:35.220 | and then as you look out further onto, say, the horizon,

00:35:37.700 | you extend the time domain even more.

00:35:39.740 | If you then imagine yourself kind of in the whole globe,

00:35:43.060 | you extend your time domain even more.

00:35:45.500 | So my morning meditation, if you will,

00:35:49.500 | it's more of a perceptual exercise,

00:35:51.060 | is to step through these different time domains

00:35:54.260 | to close my eyes and focus on my internal state,

00:35:56.620 | open my eyes and focus on something close by,

00:35:59.620 | look a little bit further, look a bit further,

00:36:01.740 | think about myself on the globe, the whole world moving,

00:36:06.740 | so you're really extending your space domain

00:36:09.540 | and then the time domain expands with it.

00:36:12.420 | And this comes up when you see these little memes

00:36:14.260 | of anytime you're worried, just remember,

00:36:16.340 | you're a little dot on a little blue dot

00:36:18.380 | spinning in the universe, this kind of thing,

00:36:20.060 | but you don't think that way when you're stressed.

00:36:22.100 | You're thinking, I'm the blue dot, you're the problem,

00:36:25.300 | whatever, I want that, you're not thinking.

00:36:27.940 | So this perceptual exercise is a way

00:36:30.180 | of training the nervous system, my nervous system,

00:36:32.880 | to shift deliberately between these different time domains.

00:36:35.900 | And for me, it's been very useful

00:36:37.900 | for improving task switching,

00:36:40.220 | something that, as you probably have noticed,

00:36:42.220 | I'm not very good at.

00:36:43.500 | I go into the trench, I don't leave the trench very easily.

00:36:46.740 | So that's been very useful.

00:36:49.300 | And if you are interested in this in more detail,

00:36:52.600 | there's a wonderful book called

00:36:56.660 | "The Secret Pulse of Time."

00:36:58.780 | And there's a Hitchcock movie that's discussed in that book,

00:37:01.720 | which the movie is about 75 minutes long.

00:37:04.700 | And during the course of that movie,

00:37:06.240 | the background actually includes rising

00:37:08.600 | and setting of the sun and a bunch of different speeds

00:37:11.180 | of movement and interplay between the characters.

00:37:13.500 | And your perception at the end of the movie

00:37:15.420 | is that a much, much longer period of time occurred

00:37:19.780 | because of, unconsciously, your brain was paying attention

00:37:23.860 | to these circadian signals and these other signals

00:37:26.220 | and absolutely fascinating.

00:37:27.340 | I'm in Hitchcock, not a huge Hitchcock fan,

00:37:29.260 | but now, after seeing that, I was like, wow, that's genius.

00:37:32.300 | He captured this space-time thing.

00:37:34.620 | What you see out the window is in one time domain.

00:37:36.900 | In the room is a different time domain.

00:37:38.620 | I won't tell you who killed who.

00:37:40.300 | But it's very, very interesting.

00:37:42.680 | And so the point being that when your visual system

00:37:45.160 | is up close, focusing on things up close or internally,

00:37:48.060 | you're fine slicing.

00:37:49.460 | When you focus on things further away,

00:37:51.860 | you're more broadly focusing and so on and so forth.

00:37:54.840 | So that's a morning meditation I do.

00:37:56.740 | Perceptual exercise only takes about a minute or so.

00:38:00.060 | And the other thing is that on the monitors,

00:38:02.780 | they're flashing now.

00:38:03.680 | That was your last question.

00:38:05.200 | So I wanna just say a couple of things before we go.

00:38:08.020 | First of all, thanks to all of you who stood out the night

00:38:11.620 | for the long duration.

00:38:12.460 | I realize this stuff is nerdy, detailed,

00:38:14.520 | and there are a lot of other things you could be doing

00:38:15.760 | with your evening and your time.

00:38:18.580 | And so I'm very grateful that you all came together tonight

00:38:22.240 | for this, what I like to think was a discussion.

00:38:25.180 | And I also just wanna thank everyone

00:38:27.220 | for your interest in the podcast.

00:38:29.820 | You know, it is a labor of love.

00:38:31.980 | I'm highly dependent on my team for doing all of it.

00:38:34.420 | I don't do it alone by any stretch.

00:38:36.500 | But as much as it might seem like it's me

00:38:38.820 | talking to all of you, it really is about all of you.

00:38:42.460 | That's the reason I do it and I'm ever so grateful.

00:38:46.020 | And I'd certainly be remiss if I didn't say

00:38:48.780 | thank you for your interest in science.

00:38:50.480 | (audience applauding)

00:38:53.640 | (audience cheering)

00:38:56.640 | Thank you.

00:38:58.800 | (upbeat music)

00:39:02.960 | (upbeat music)

00:39:05.540 | (upbeat music)

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