Destiny: Politics, Free Speech, Controversy, Sex, War, and Relationships

00:00:00.000 | If you have a democratic style of governance,

00:00:03.120 | you are entrusting people with one of the most awesome

00:00:06.720 | and radical of responsibilities.

00:00:08.360 | And that's saying that you're going to pick the people

00:00:10.400 | that are gonna make some of the hardest decisions

00:00:11.960 | in all of human history.

00:00:13.220 | If you're gonna trust people to vote correctly,

00:00:15.960 | you have to be able to trust them

00:00:17.200 | to have open and honest dialogue with each other.

00:00:19.020 | Whether that's Nazis or KKK people or whoever talking,

00:00:22.720 | you have to believe that your people

00:00:24.720 | are going to be able to rise above

00:00:26.080 | and make the correct determinations

00:00:27.580 | when they hear these types of speeches.

00:00:29.360 | And if you're so worried that somebody is gonna hear

00:00:32.040 | a certain political figure

00:00:33.120 | and they're gonna be completely radicalized instantly,

00:00:35.280 | then what that tells me

00:00:36.120 | is that you don't have enough faith in humans

00:00:38.120 | for democracy to be a viable institution, which is fine.

00:00:41.000 | You can be anti-democratic,

00:00:42.320 | but I don't think you can be pro-democracy

00:00:44.160 | and anti-free speech.

00:00:45.520 | - The following is a conversation with Stephen Bunnell,

00:00:51.360 | also known online as Destiny.

00:00:53.560 | He's a video game streamer and political commentator,

00:00:56.720 | one of the early pioneers

00:00:58.040 | of both live streaming in general

00:00:59.680 | and live streamed political debate and discourse.

00:01:02.720 | Politically, he is a progressive,

00:01:05.220 | identifying as either left or far left,

00:01:08.040 | depending on your perspective.

00:01:10.020 | There are many reasons I wanted to talk to Stephen.

00:01:12.880 | First, I just talked to Ben Shapiro

00:01:14.920 | and many people have told me

00:01:16.600 | that Stephen is the Ben Shapiro of the left

00:01:20.360 | in terms of political perspective

00:01:22.040 | and exceptional debate skills.

00:01:24.920 | Second reason is he skillfully defends

00:01:28.000 | some nuanced non-standard views,

00:01:31.040 | at the same time being pro-establishment,

00:01:33.360 | pro-institutions and pro-Biden,

00:01:35.640 | while also being pro-capitalism and pro-free speech.

00:01:39.460 | Third reason is he has been there at the beginning

00:01:43.380 | and throughout the meteoric rise

00:01:45.560 | of the video game live streaming community.

00:01:48.080 | In some mainstream circles,

00:01:50.040 | this community is not taken seriously,

00:01:52.700 | perhaps because of its demographic distribution

00:01:55.720 | skewing young,

00:01:56.920 | or perhaps because of the sometimes harsh style

00:01:59.840 | of communication.

00:02:01.600 | But I think this community should be taken seriously

00:02:05.280 | and shown respect.

00:02:07.200 | Millions of young minds tune in

00:02:08.840 | to live streams like Destiny's to question

00:02:11.480 | and to try to understand what is going on with the world,

00:02:14.280 | often exploring challenging, even controversial ideas.

00:02:18.180 | The language is sometimes harsher

00:02:19.940 | and the humor sometimes meaner than I would prefer.

00:02:22.880 | But I, Grandpa Lex, put on my rain boots

00:02:27.380 | and went into the beautiful chaotic muck

00:02:29.540 | of online discourse,

00:02:31.160 | and have so far survived to tell the tale,

00:02:34.120 | with a smile and even more love in my heart than before.

00:02:37.960 | On top of all this,

00:02:40.640 | we were lucky to have Malina Gorinson,

00:02:43.480 | a popular streamer and world traveler,

00:02:45.880 | join us at the end of the conversation.

00:02:48.040 | You can check out her channel on twitch.tv/malina,

00:02:52.100 | and you can check out Stephen's channel

00:02:54.180 | on youtube.com/destiny.

00:02:57.100 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:02:59.140 | To support it,

00:02:59.980 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

00:03:02.460 | And now, dear friends, here's Destiny.

00:03:05.200 | - I don't know if you watched me watching your

00:03:08.020 | yay interview.

00:03:09.300 | - Yeah, thank you so much for-

00:03:10.820 | - I'm so curious,

00:03:11.700 | when you're navigating a conversation like that,

00:03:14.500 | are you, how intentional is the thought process

00:03:16.740 | between building rapport and pushing

00:03:19.520 | and giving a little and letting-

00:03:21.160 | - Zero, zero intention.

00:03:23.180 | I was watching, and thank you so much.

00:03:24.680 | It was very kind for you to review that conversation.

00:03:26.960 | It meant a lot that you were complimentary in parts,

00:03:30.280 | on the technical aspects of the conversation,

00:03:32.240 | but no, zero.

00:03:33.360 | And I'm actually deliberately trying to avoid,

00:03:37.560 | I think you've called it debate brain,

00:03:39.460 | which is just another flavor of thinking about

00:03:45.800 | like the meta conversation,

00:03:47.180 | trying to optimize how should this conversation go?

00:03:50.440 | Because I feel like the more you do that,

00:03:53.620 | the better you get at that,

00:03:55.620 | the less human connection you have.

00:03:57.780 | Like the less genuinely you're actually sitting there

00:03:59.980 | in the moment and listening to the person,

00:04:01.820 | you're more like calculating what's the right thing to say,

00:04:04.300 | versus like feeling what is that person feeling right now?

00:04:08.180 | What are they thinking?

00:04:09.260 | That's what I'm trying to do,

00:04:10.180 | is like putting myself in their mind and thinking,

00:04:13.780 | what does the world look like to them?

00:04:15.580 | What does the world feel like to them?

00:04:17.920 | And so from that, I truly try to listen.

00:04:20.440 | Now I'm also learning,

00:04:22.280 | especially 'cause Rogan and others have been giving me shit

00:04:25.200 | for not pushing back.

00:04:26.960 | It's good sometimes to say,

00:04:28.580 | from a place of care for the other human being,

00:04:32.600 | to say stop.

00:04:33.840 | What did you just say?

00:04:36.160 | I don't think that represents who you are,

00:04:39.400 | and what you really mean.

00:04:40.760 | Or maybe if it does at that time represents who they are,

00:04:45.460 | I can see a better world

00:04:48.560 | if they grow into a different direction,

00:04:50.120 | try to point that direction out to them.

00:04:52.160 | - There's a really complicated dance

00:04:53.640 | between letting somebody share their full story,

00:04:56.620 | versus letting somebody like,

00:04:58.080 | essentially I guess like proselytize your audience.

00:05:00.560 | And it's like, okay, hold on, let's take him in here.

00:05:02.640 | But yeah, I used to be four or five years ago,

00:05:06.200 | it was attack, attack, attack, attack, attack,

00:05:08.040 | whatever you said.

00:05:09.080 | And now I'm leaning way more towards the like,

00:05:10.960 | okay, well, tell me how you feel about everything,

00:05:12.560 | and then we'll go from there.

00:05:13.400 | So a lot of people like my new approach,

00:05:15.360 | some older fans will watch and they're like,

00:05:16.760 | why are you letting this guy just ramble on?

00:05:18.140 | You know he said like five or six wrong things,

00:05:20.020 | and you're only gonna call him out on two of them.

00:05:21.340 | And it's like, it's just different styles of conversation.

00:05:23.720 | But yeah.

00:05:24.560 | - Do you do a lot of research beforehand too?

00:05:26.320 | - Depending on the conversation, yeah.

00:05:27.540 | So if we're gonna talk like vaccines and stuff,

00:05:29.120 | yeah, that's a ton of reading and stuff

00:05:30.940 | that I never thought I'd know going into it.

00:05:33.680 | If it's a more personal,

00:05:34.520 | like political philosophy conversation,

00:05:36.200 | there's not as much you can prepare for,

00:05:37.320 | just it truly depends on the conversation.

00:05:39.320 | - How much are you actually listening to the other person?

00:05:42.080 | - I'm always listening, you have to listen.

00:05:43.440 | 'Cause as soon as you stop listening,

00:05:44.440 | the quality of everything falls apart.

00:05:46.320 | The connection disappears,

00:05:47.200 | the quality of the conversation disappears.

00:05:49.080 | But my natural inclination is to just be way more aggressive

00:05:52.360 | than normal, so I have to constantly remind myself,

00:05:54.520 | I guess you would call it a meta conversation,

00:05:55.960 | where you're like, okay,

00:05:56.800 | he's probably saying this because of that,

00:05:58.160 | or we'll let him go here and then we'll stop later.

00:06:00.220 | But yeah, 'cause my preferred style of conversation

00:06:03.440 | is like, I'm gonna talk,

00:06:04.520 | and the second I say something you disagree with,

00:06:06.280 | then let's iron it out, right?

00:06:08.440 | I got like, I think I'm like syllogisms,

00:06:10.120 | like, okay, here's premise A, good, okay.

00:06:13.200 | Premise B, okay, and then conclusion.

00:06:15.320 | And then as long as we're both deductively sound,

00:06:17.300 | we're not crazy, no psychosis,

00:06:18.680 | then we're gonna agree on everything.

00:06:20.320 | Whereas other people like to,

00:06:21.440 | most people think in stories, like narratives,

00:06:23.480 | like a whole, there's a whole narrative,

00:06:25.060 | and the individual facts don't matter as much,

00:06:27.280 | 'cause they'll pick and choose what they want.

00:06:28.520 | And it's really hard, 'cause everybody thinks narratives

00:06:31.080 | have to function in that world.

00:06:32.680 | But it's frustrating for me sometimes.

00:06:34.800 | - Well, I've seen, you've had a lot of excellent debates.

00:06:37.720 | One of them I just recently, last night,

00:06:39.680 | watched is on systemic racism.

00:06:42.680 | And it's the first time I've seen you

00:06:44.920 | completely lose your shit.

00:06:46.360 | - Oh, shoot, who was that against?

00:06:47.800 | - I'm not sure exactly, but you were just very frustrated.

00:06:50.360 | Sorry, not lose your shit, but you were frustrated,

00:06:52.440 | constantly, because of the thing, let's lay out one, two,

00:06:55.000 | three, and every time you try to lay it out,

00:06:57.880 | it would falter.

00:06:59.300 | I think it had to do with sort of,

00:07:01.160 | can you use data to make an argument,

00:07:03.560 | or do you need to use a study

00:07:04.920 | that does an interpretation of that data?

00:07:07.320 | And then there's like this tension between,

00:07:09.200 | I think this is a behavioral economist

00:07:11.000 | that you were talking to.

00:07:12.360 | The point is, you do this kind of nice layout

00:07:14.800 | that the whole point of behavioral economics,

00:07:16.400 | it says there's more to it than just the data.

00:07:19.080 | You have to give a context and do the rich,

00:07:22.240 | rigorous interpretation in the context

00:07:24.520 | of the full human story.

00:07:26.120 | And then there was like a dance back and forth.

00:07:27.800 | Sometimes you use data, sometimes not,

00:07:29.440 | and you were getting really frustrated and shutting down.

00:07:32.480 | And so that felt like a failure mode.

00:07:34.600 | I've seen Sam Harris have similar sticking points.

00:07:37.560 | Like if we can't agree on the terminology, we can't go on.

00:07:40.880 | To me, I feel like,

00:07:43.000 | the Wittgenstein perspective is like,

00:07:47.760 | I think if you get stuck on any one thing,

00:07:51.240 | you're just not gonna make progress.

00:07:52.480 | You have to, part of the conversation has to be

00:07:55.840 | about doing a good dance together

00:08:00.520 | versus being dogmatically stuck on the path to truth.

00:08:05.840 | - I think the true challenge is identifying

00:08:08.560 | what of those sticking points are important

00:08:10.880 | versus what is not important.

00:08:14.840 | It's like if I'm having an argument with somebody

00:08:16.200 | about Jewish representation in media,

00:08:18.840 | it might be a big conversation

00:08:21.240 | and they might say a couple things.

00:08:23.000 | Like I think Jewish people,

00:08:24.360 | they tend to help their own or whatever.

00:08:25.640 | And it's like, "Yeah, okay."

00:08:26.800 | But for the purpose of the conversation,

00:08:28.280 | we can keep moving.

00:08:29.320 | But if they casually drop, "Yeah,

00:08:31.160 | "and I think that's why the Holocaust numbers

00:08:32.960 | "were blown up from 100,000 to 6 million."

00:08:35.080 | And it's like, "Okay, well, hold on, wait, wait.

00:08:36.280 | "If you think this, we have to stop here

00:08:37.920 | "because this is gonna be,

00:08:39.880 | "it's not just a language game in this part.

00:08:41.440 | "If you really believe this fact,

00:08:42.960 | "then the whole rest of the conversation

00:08:44.360 | "is gonna be informed by that belief."

00:08:46.800 | - And it has to be something

00:08:47.800 | that doesn't bother you personally.

00:08:50.640 | You have to step outside your own ego.

00:08:53.000 | So Holocaust denial is somebody

00:08:54.880 | that would bother a lot of people.

00:08:56.640 | And there's some things, just observing you,

00:08:59.900 | I feel like when you get really good at conversation,

00:09:02.300 | you can become a stickler to,

00:09:05.720 | you might have your favorite terms

00:09:07.560 | that really bothers you if people don't agree

00:09:09.760 | on those terms.

00:09:10.600 | - Begs the question, you mean raising the question.

00:09:12.800 | Yeah, I usually just want,

00:09:13.640 | if people say stuff, I just let it slide, yeah.

00:09:16.280 | 'Cause if you fight,

00:09:17.480 | when you're having a conversation with somebody

00:09:19.000 | and you're talking to their audience at the same time,

00:09:20.560 | 'cause that's really what's happening,

00:09:21.920 | you never wanna come off as overcombative

00:09:23.640 | or overaggressive because it puts people in like,

00:09:26.320 | there's like a trigger in your brain,

00:09:28.000 | and this is true of relationships or friendships

00:09:30.040 | of persuasive rhetoric or whatever,

00:09:31.560 | there's a trigger in the brain.

00:09:32.400 | And as soon as that defensive trigger gets like flipped on,

00:09:34.680 | everything is over, you've lost the ability to persuade

00:09:37.240 | because everything becomes a fight at that point, yeah.

00:09:39.600 | - Well, I wanted to talk to you

00:09:41.080 | 'cause I heard somewhere that you were referred to

00:09:44.280 | as the Ben Shapiro of the left,

00:09:45.520 | and since I'm talking with Ben as well,

00:09:48.440 | I wanted to sort of complete spiritually

00:09:51.360 | this platonic political philosophy puzzle in my head.

00:09:55.160 | You are a progressive,

00:09:57.080 | but a progressive with many nonstandard progressive views,

00:10:00.280 | and you had a heck of a fascinating journey

00:10:02.280 | through all of that.

00:10:03.120 | And like I said, I think you argue with passion sometimes

00:10:07.160 | with excessive amounts of passion, but almost--

00:10:09.400 | - That's a really polite way of saying that.

00:10:11.200 | - Almost always with good faith

00:10:13.920 | and with rigor, with seriousness.

00:10:16.240 | I asked on your subreddit, which is an excellent subreddit,

00:10:18.880 | shout out to the Destiny subreddit,

00:10:22.080 | so much, at least for that particular post.

00:10:25.040 | What I really loved is when I asked for questions for you,

00:10:27.880 | they were like, holy shit, there's adults in there,

00:10:29.680 | let's all behave.

00:10:30.880 | - Yeah. - Like, nobody say incest.

00:10:32.640 | I was like, what?

00:10:33.480 | What's going on here?

00:10:35.160 | But actually, the questions that rose to the top

00:10:37.960 | were really good.

00:10:38.800 | So somebody said that Destiny was,

00:10:40.880 | speaking of your journey,

00:10:43.200 | was a conservative in his early teens,

00:10:45.920 | then he became a libertarian,

00:10:48.120 | then he became a left-wing social justice warrior,

00:10:50.640 | then he flirted with socialism,

00:10:53.000 | and now he is a social democrat liberal.

00:10:55.800 | I've also heard you refer to yourself as a far-left person.

00:10:59.760 | So to the degree there's truth to that journey,

00:11:02.280 | can you take me through your evolution

00:11:04.880 | through the landscape of political ideologies

00:11:07.760 | that you went through?

00:11:08.600 | - So my dad comes from Kentucky,

00:11:11.440 | and my mom is a Cuban immigrant.

00:11:14.800 | Cubans are notorious for being very conservative

00:11:17.520 | in the United States,

00:11:18.920 | for historical reasons and for other reasons,

00:11:21.280 | but my upbringing was a very Republican one.

00:11:24.760 | I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck,

00:11:28.160 | Michael Savage, on the radio, Billy Cunningham,

00:11:32.360 | I think Sean Hannity a little bit later on,

00:11:34.360 | that was my whole upbringing politically.

00:11:36.480 | I remember I was writing,

00:11:38.440 | I'd written articles for the school journal

00:11:40.240 | in favor of defending the war in Iraq

00:11:42.680 | and defending Bush from all the criticism, et cetera.

00:11:45.040 | So that was my upbringing.

00:11:47.600 | I think once I hit high school, college,

00:11:50.120 | I had my edgy libertarian-esque high school phase

00:11:53.340 | of reading Ayn Rand, of figuring out that,

00:11:57.160 | oh my God, nothing in life matters

00:11:58.600 | except for class and money,

00:11:59.680 | that's actually the answer to everything.

00:12:02.000 | I got to college, I became a Ron Paul fan,

00:12:04.600 | very big Ron Paul fan,

00:12:06.200 | and then from there, I kind of work, do life, life happens.

00:12:11.200 | At the kind of the lowest point of my life

00:12:13.560 | in terms of where I'm working,

00:12:14.560 | financially everything is kind of in ruin in my life,

00:12:16.400 | there's just a whole bunch of dumb stuff that's happened.

00:12:18.120 | Probably my most conservative point,

00:12:19.800 | I don't know what it is about being poor

00:12:21.880 | and thinking you can work your way out of it,

00:12:23.480 | you can do whatever,

00:12:24.320 | it's just my upbringing is always just like,

00:12:25.480 | if you're not having financial success,

00:12:28.160 | just work, work, work, work, work.

00:12:30.420 | And then I got into streaming, very, very lucky break,

00:12:32.560 | everything just lined up at the right time.

00:12:33.880 | And then as I've progressed through streaming,

00:12:35.680 | I would say through the years,

00:12:36.640 | I've gradually fallen more and more to the left,

00:12:38.920 | especially once my kid turned four, five, six years old,

00:12:42.280 | and I started to see how much different his life was

00:12:45.440 | just because of the financial opportunities

00:12:47.000 | that I was able to provide for him

00:12:48.240 | through no merit of his own,

00:12:49.720 | and that started to radically change

00:12:51.200 | how I viewed the world in a lot of ways.

00:12:52.600 | - So actually, let's linger on that low point.

00:12:55.840 | You worked at McDonald's, you worked at a casino,

00:12:59.920 | you did carpet cleaning, what was the lowest point?

00:13:03.960 | - Definitely the carpet cleaning.

00:13:05.560 | - Really? - Absolutely.

00:13:07.080 | - Why was it the lowest point?

00:13:08.680 | That's when you were just flirting with starting streaming?

00:13:11.960 | - My whole life has been a series of lucky breaks,

00:13:14.160 | really, truly.

00:13:15.280 | I grew up playing a lot of video games,

00:13:17.520 | but back in my day, our day, you had to read.

00:13:21.240 | There was a lot of text on the screen.

00:13:22.440 | - Back in my day, we used to play--

00:13:24.280 | - They didn't all talk to you.

00:13:25.360 | Yeah, 'cause nowadays everything's voice acted,

00:13:27.160 | but back then you had to read a lot.

00:13:28.700 | I was a really good reader,

00:13:29.840 | I had a really good vocabulary.

00:13:30.880 | - Yeah, I've heard you actually say that.

00:13:32.040 | What games are we talking about?

00:13:33.440 | What do you mean, just reading?

00:13:35.080 | You're talking about RPGs?

00:13:36.080 | - Yeah, JRPGs, so like Final Fantasy games,

00:13:38.000 | Fantasy Stars, like all of these,

00:13:39.480 | like any RPG that would have been on the SNES,

00:13:41.760 | Sega, PlayStation, these are the things that I'm--

00:13:43.840 | - Let's pause on that.

00:13:44.840 | - Okay.

00:13:45.680 | - I just talked to Todd Howard,

00:13:47.200 | who's of the Elder Scrolls fame

00:13:50.840 | and the Fallout fame and beyond.

00:13:54.320 | What's your thoughts on Elder Scrolls?

00:13:56.520 | Why is Skyrim the greatest RPG of all time?

00:13:59.440 | - Man, I really don't like Skyrim or Fallout.

00:14:02.200 | - You don't love it? - Or those types of games.

00:14:03.160 | - Oh, really? - No, not at all.

00:14:04.480 | - Why do you hate Skyrim?

00:14:05.640 | - Yeah, so I really like characters

00:14:07.920 | and like compelling stories and narrators

00:14:09.440 | around those characters.

00:14:10.480 | And I like to see them kind of like grow and change,

00:14:12.280 | kind of like a movie or a story.

00:14:14.000 | So in your like Final Fantasy games, you've got characters.

00:14:17.400 | There are a lot of like classical tropes

00:14:20.600 | of like a character starts off kind of like edgy, angsty,

00:14:23.260 | all on their own.

00:14:24.100 | They develop relationships, friendships.

00:14:25.600 | They realize that the life is more about themselves

00:14:27.880 | and they do that.

00:14:28.720 | So I like that growth.

00:14:29.800 | That's kind of what you see

00:14:30.640 | in all of those old role-playing games.

00:14:32.560 | I didn't like the open world ones as much

00:14:34.200 | 'cause your main character is just like a blank slate,

00:14:35.880 | never talks.

00:14:36.720 | It's for you to like project onto,

00:14:38.200 | but there's not the same like linear narrative

00:14:40.880 | of like growth for the character.

00:14:41.720 | - Oh, that's fascinating.

00:14:42.560 | There's an actual story arc to the character

00:14:45.360 | that's more crafted in a beautiful way

00:14:47.640 | by the designers of the game.

00:14:48.800 | Yeah, that's okay. - I don't think one

00:14:49.640 | is better or worse.

00:14:50.480 | I tend towards like I wanna hear a compelling story

00:14:52.360 | around like a set of characters

00:14:53.600 | that like grow and change as the game goes on.

00:14:54.720 | - Oh, that's beautifully put then.

00:14:55.880 | Yeah, I just really loved being able to leave the town.

00:15:00.040 | You go outside the town and you look outside,

00:15:02.240 | it's nature and the world of possibilities is before you.

00:15:05.160 | You can do whatever the fuck you want.

00:15:07.040 | I mean, that immensity of just being lost in the world

00:15:10.440 | is really immersive for me.

00:15:11.500 | But yeah, you're right.

00:15:12.340 | Whatever attracts you about a world.

00:15:14.640 | So you were just starting to play video games.

00:15:19.120 | You grew up playing video games.

00:15:20.240 | That's one of your lucky breaks.

00:15:22.160 | - There's just like a lot of random skills you pick up

00:15:24.040 | depending on the type of game you play.

00:15:25.720 | I played a lot of text-based games on the computer.

00:15:27.880 | So I was a very fast typer.

00:15:29.600 | I'm still a very fast typer.

00:15:31.000 | Read a lot, learned weird kind of math stuff

00:15:34.600 | for some of the calculations, some of the games.

00:15:36.700 | I think I'm pretty good at getting information,

00:15:39.520 | figuring stuff out, learning patterns, all of that.

00:15:42.240 | And then that plus the reading and everything

00:15:44.400 | with the games meant that I,

00:15:45.960 | I don't wanna say I excelled in school

00:15:47.440 | 'cause my grades were pretty bad,

00:15:48.960 | but I was in like all honors, all AP classes or whatever.

00:15:51.560 | A lot of dual enrollment,

00:15:52.680 | a lot of AP credit going into college.

00:15:54.080 | So I did pretty well in school,

00:15:55.920 | probably better than I should have,

00:15:56.920 | but it was because I had the game stuff

00:15:58.220 | that was like really powering a lot of my brain there

00:16:00.400 | while I was trying to sleep through class.

00:16:02.400 | - So you're able to soak in information,

00:16:04.200 | integrate it, quickly take notes.

00:16:06.640 | - Generally, I think I'm pretty good at that, yeah.

00:16:08.480 | - What, you do this a lot when you stream,

00:16:10.280 | you're typing stuff.

00:16:11.200 | Is there a system in that note-taking?

00:16:13.480 | And what note, what do you use for note-taking?

00:16:16.480 | Does it matter?

00:16:17.320 | - I use a notepad.

00:16:19.240 | - Like notepad.exe notepad?

00:16:20.880 | - Yep, notepad.exe, not the plus plus, not.

00:16:23.440 | - Is there genius to the madness behind that,

00:16:26.320 | or you just don't give a shit?

00:16:27.640 | - No, I mean like, it's gonna depend

00:16:29.480 | on the style of conversation.

00:16:30.820 | If I'm with somebody that is very meticulously organized

00:16:33.400 | their thoughts and they're a,

00:16:35.640 | find a better word here for rambler,

00:16:36.920 | you can edit that in, better word for rambler.

00:16:38.560 | Somebody that talks a lot and a lot,

00:16:39.840 | I'll start like taking notes, bullet points,

00:16:42.280 | like this, this, this, this, this, this, this,

00:16:43.880 | because there's a style of conversation

00:16:45.960 | where I say seven or eight different things,

00:16:47.960 | and then when you go to respond to everything I said,

00:16:49.720 | I cut you off immediately and we argue that point.

00:16:51.960 | But if somebody's gonna do that,

00:16:52.800 | I usually say, "Hold on, you just said these eight things,

00:16:54.960 | "I'm gonna respond to every single one.

00:16:56.520 | "I've written them all down."

00:16:57.560 | And then you can go,

00:16:58.380 | if you wanna go point by point, we can,

00:16:59.700 | but you just said all this and I wrote it down,

00:17:00.960 | so now we're gonna go.

00:17:01.800 | - So what are you actually writing down,

00:17:02.640 | like a couple of words per point they left?

00:17:05.400 | - Honestly, like there are very few

00:17:07.040 | unique conversations in politics.

00:17:08.600 | Like a lot of them are kind of retreading old ground.

00:17:10.280 | So if we're having a debate on abortion,

00:17:12.780 | somebody might say like,

00:17:13.760 | "Oh, well, I believe this thing about viability,

00:17:15.700 | "and I believe this thing about, you know,

00:17:17.000 | "when they're a fetus versus a human."

00:17:18.600 | And I'll just write down like those points

00:17:19.920 | so that when I go to respond,

00:17:20.760 | I kind of have like a, like note cards,

00:17:22.240 | like a guiding thing there

00:17:23.160 | to keep me centered on my response.

00:17:25.440 | - Political discourse is a kind of tree

00:17:26.800 | you're walking down, I got it.

00:17:27.640 | And you're like taking--

00:17:29.120 | - Just to keep my focus guided,

00:17:31.200 | so I'm not like running off on a weird tangent

00:17:32.920 | or responding to something I didn't say or something.

00:17:34.520 | - What about like doing research?

00:17:36.320 | It's just, is there a system to your note taking?

00:17:38.960 | Because mentally you seem to be

00:17:40.960 | one of the most organized people I've listened to.

00:17:43.040 | So is there, is it in your mind,

00:17:45.500 | or is there a system that's on paper?

00:17:47.640 | - A little of both.

00:17:48.840 | I feel like the human mind is a beautiful thing

00:17:51.600 | if you have interest in an area.

00:17:53.720 | So like what I'll tell people is,

00:17:55.760 | let's say there's like a totally new topic

00:17:57.400 | that I'm researching, I don't know anything.

00:17:58.680 | And I'll do a couple of these on stream.

00:18:00.120 | I think they're boring, but people watch it.

00:18:01.760 | I might open a Wikipedia article and I'll read,

00:18:04.000 | and I hit something I don't know,

00:18:05.040 | and then I open the next Wikipedia article

00:18:06.640 | and I'll read it, and then I might have like seven tabs open

00:18:08.860 | and I'll read and I'll read and I'll read.

00:18:11.160 | And I'll read a ton of stuff,

00:18:12.000 | maybe for hour two, three, four hours of stuff.

00:18:14.240 | And then by the end, you know,

00:18:15.080 | someone in chat will ask me like,

00:18:16.040 | "Do you even remember like this particular thing?"

00:18:18.320 | And I'll say, "Not really, no, not too much."

00:18:21.080 | But what happens is, as long as you've seen it once,

00:18:23.380 | what will happen is like the next day, the day after,

00:18:25.160 | we'll read something else and we'll be like,

00:18:26.440 | "Oh, I remember that thing from this thing.

00:18:28.880 | I remember like vaguely that."

00:18:30.080 | And then if you see it like a third time, you're like,

00:18:31.480 | "Oh, this makes sense."

00:18:32.820 | Because especially when it comes to,

00:18:35.280 | oh, here's like a little trick on stuff.

00:18:37.120 | If you're ever reading any news

00:18:38.800 | and there's a place that pops up,

00:18:40.640 | always look at it on a map

00:18:41.920 | because so much of history is like on a map.

00:18:44.280 | It's so important to like know the geography.

00:18:45.920 | It makes things make so much more sense.

00:18:48.560 | But yeah, once I start to see stuff over and over again,

00:18:51.080 | just because I've like read it a few times,

00:18:52.760 | stuff will start to kind of connect to my mind.

00:18:54.400 | And I'm like, "Oh yeah, well, this makes sense.

00:18:55.560 | Of course, these people believe this because of this."

00:18:57.760 | Or of course, like this happened here.

00:18:59.060 | It's because, you know, that happened there.

00:19:01.160 | So yeah, it's a lot of that.

00:19:02.240 | If there's like a topic

00:19:03.080 | that I'm doing specific research for,

00:19:05.760 | so like vaccine-related stuff is a big one.

00:19:08.200 | The Ukrainian-Russian conflict is a big one.

00:19:10.240 | That I'll break out a note.

00:19:12.020 | I'll probably get like a Google doc

00:19:13.300 | and I'll just start like writing like an outline

00:19:14.900 | of kind of the rough points of everything

00:19:16.560 | just to organize my thoughts around different topics, yeah.

00:19:18.960 | - We're just gonna go on tangent upon a tangent

00:19:20.760 | upon a tangent.

00:19:21.600 | We'll return to the low point of your life at some point.

00:19:24.320 | Always returning from the philosophy to the psychology.

00:19:26.480 | So you did the Ukraine topic.

00:19:29.460 | One question is, what role does US play in this war?

00:19:35.360 | Could they have done something to avoid the war?

00:19:40.240 | Did they have a role to play

00:19:42.640 | in forcing Vladimir Putin's hand?

00:19:45.640 | Do they have a role to play

00:19:47.360 | in de-escalating the war towards a peace agreement

00:19:51.840 | and the opposite?

00:19:53.000 | If it does escalate towards something like

00:19:56.400 | the use of a tactical nuclear weapon,

00:19:58.520 | are they to blame?

00:19:59.480 | Are we to blame?

00:20:01.280 | - Oh man, somebody sent me an email a while ago

00:20:03.080 | with great words.

00:20:04.420 | There's a specific way to navigate a conversation

00:20:07.560 | where you can kind of like contribute to a negative event,

00:20:10.840 | but you're not really the one responsible for it.

00:20:13.640 | Like the classic example is,

00:20:15.040 | a woman goes out late at night,

00:20:16.240 | gets a little bit too drunk,

00:20:17.240 | and then something happens.

00:20:18.440 | And it's like, while there might've been steps

00:20:20.100 | she could have taken to mitigate the risk,

00:20:22.300 | it's not her fault of what happened

00:20:24.060 | because the responsibility rests

00:20:26.440 | on the agent making the choice, right?

00:20:28.520 | There's a chooser at some point

00:20:30.260 | that is choosing to do wrong or evil.

00:20:32.840 | I don't believe in any of the arguments

00:20:35.200 | that say the United States has contributed

00:20:36.960 | to Russia's position on Ukraine

00:20:39.140 | or the actions that they've taken on Ukraine.

00:20:41.440 | There are several arguments that some people,

00:20:45.080 | some even political scholars are putting out there

00:20:47.440 | to say that the United States is to blame,

00:20:48.740 | but I find them completely unconvincing.

00:20:50.880 | I think that when you ask the question of like,

00:20:52.720 | what is the United States role or what has our role been?

00:20:55.680 | I think it's really important for us.

00:20:57.000 | I don't think we even agree as a country

00:20:58.120 | on what our role should be,

00:20:59.180 | which I think is a hard one

00:21:00.020 | because you've got this kind of,

00:21:01.340 | there's this growing populist movement in the United States.

00:21:04.400 | It might be the far left and the far right.

00:21:05.960 | And I think populists tend to have

00:21:07.240 | this kind of isolationist view of the world

00:21:09.920 | where the United States should just be our own thing.

00:21:11.920 | We shouldn't be telling anybody what to do.

00:21:13.920 | We shouldn't be the world police.

00:21:15.120 | And then kind of more in these

00:21:16.520 | like center left, center right positions.

00:21:17.960 | And then across a lot of Europe, you've got, well, okay.

00:21:20.280 | The United States is kind of like the big kid on the block.

00:21:22.840 | Like we're looking to them for guidance and leadership

00:21:25.040 | on situations like what's going on in Ukraine.

00:21:27.740 | So insofar as the original question is like,

00:21:31.000 | what is like the United States responsibility?

00:21:32.880 | I think we have a responsibility to ensure

00:21:35.140 | the relative like freedom,

00:21:36.960 | prosperity and stability across Europe.

00:21:39.200 | I think that defending Ukraine's sovereignty

00:21:41.360 | and right to their borders is a part of that.

00:21:43.600 | And I don't believe that prior to the invasion in 2022,

00:21:47.720 | I don't think the United States was contributing

00:21:49.520 | to Russia invading that country.

00:21:51.560 | I know there are arguments given that like

00:21:53.680 | the expansion of NATO,

00:21:55.320 | has something that's been threatening to Russia,

00:21:57.700 | but the Baltics joined

00:21:58.760 | and Russia didn't do anything about it.

00:22:00.660 | The invasion to Crimea was very clearly a response

00:22:02.940 | to the revolution in 2014.

00:22:04.800 | The invasion on the borders is clearly a response

00:22:07.200 | to Ukraine winning that civil war in the Southeast

00:22:10.760 | and the Donbass and Russia becoming more aggressive.

00:22:13.160 | I don't think that you can blame any of that

00:22:14.480 | on NATO expansion.

00:22:15.720 | There's no NATO countries that are threatening Russia

00:22:17.520 | or debating Russia.

00:22:18.780 | - Do you think there is a nuclear threat?

00:22:21.200 | Do you think about this?

00:22:23.160 | Do you worry about this,

00:22:24.080 | that there is a threat of a tactical nuclear weapon

00:22:26.640 | being dropped?

00:22:27.640 | - I think that possibility exists either way.

00:22:29.160 | And I think the responsibility for that is on Russia

00:22:31.640 | because it just can't be the case

00:22:33.640 | that if you have nukes,

00:22:34.520 | you're allowed to invade countries and take their land.

00:22:36.600 | Because if anything,

00:22:37.440 | I think that that down the road also increases

00:22:40.160 | the potential for nuclear problems in the future, right?

00:22:43.040 | Because at that point,

00:22:43.880 | either every single country has to acquire

00:22:45.560 | their own nuclear weapons,

00:22:46.520 | 'cause if you don't,

00:22:47.360 | Russia's gonna mess with you,

00:22:48.440 | or every single country has to join NATO.

00:22:50.480 | And now what?

00:22:51.320 | We're back at square zero, ground zero, square one,

00:22:53.160 | where people are like,

00:22:54.000 | "Oh, well look, all these countries joining NATO

00:22:54.960 | is aggressive towards Russia."

00:22:55.960 | Like, what are you gonna do?

00:22:57.720 | - Yeah, you've mentioned that there's a complicated calculus

00:23:02.120 | going on with the countries that have nuclear weapons.

00:23:06.200 | And what's our responsibility?

00:23:08.440 | Are you allowed to do anything you want

00:23:10.040 | to countries that don't have nuclear weapons?

00:23:13.160 | - That's a really tricky discussion.

00:23:15.360 | - For sure.

00:23:16.200 | - Because what is US supposed to do

00:23:17.640 | if Russia drops a tactical nuclear weapon?

00:23:20.360 | There's a set of options,

00:23:21.880 | none of which are good.

00:23:25.360 | And it's such a tricky moment right now

00:23:29.320 | because the things that Biden and other public figures say,

00:23:34.320 | I feel like has a significant impact

00:23:37.040 | on the way this game turns out.

00:23:38.360 | 'Cause I think mutually assured destruction

00:23:40.040 | is partially a game of words.

00:23:43.720 | - Yeah.

00:23:44.560 | - Like, I mean, I believe in the power of conversation,

00:23:47.560 | of leaders talking to each other.

00:23:50.480 | I feel like you have to have a balance

00:23:53.480 | between threat and compromise,

00:23:57.240 | and like empathy for the needs,

00:24:01.120 | the geopolitical, the economic needs of a nation,

00:24:05.320 | but also sort of respect and represent your own interests.

00:24:10.320 | So it's a tricky one.

00:24:11.880 | Like, how do you play the hand?

00:24:14.960 | - It reminds me of, I don't know if you've ever heard

00:24:17.000 | in like evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology,

00:24:19.000 | there are things called tit for tat strategies.

00:24:21.440 | It kind of reminds me of that,

00:24:22.400 | where it's like if, like,

00:24:23.720 | there are a whole bunch of these little biological mechanisms

00:24:25.720 | where creatures will develop,

00:24:26.720 | like socializing, like tit for tat.

00:24:28.160 | If you do something bad to me,

00:24:29.480 | I'm gonna do something bad for you.

00:24:30.920 | And then more complicated schemes will come out

00:24:32.880 | where it'll be like tit, tit for tat,

00:24:35.240 | where it's like, you can make one mistake,

00:24:36.880 | and then I'm gonna get you if you do a second one,

00:24:38.280 | or it could be tit, tit, tit for tat,

00:24:39.600 | or there could be tit for tat, tat for tit.

00:24:41.280 | There's like all these like back and forths

00:24:43.040 | where creatures kind of optimize themselves.

00:24:44.800 | And yeah, I think something the United States

00:24:47.760 | did really well in terms of that kind

00:24:49.240 | of conversational strategy,

00:24:50.440 | and I approved of this in the beginning,

00:24:52.280 | was Biden was very clear about setting out

00:24:54.640 | like the exact level of US involvement for the war.

00:24:57.560 | We're not gonna do a no fly zone.

00:24:59.120 | There's not gonna be US troops on the ground in Ukraine,

00:25:01.080 | but we are gonna send a whole bunch of money

00:25:02.640 | and a whole bunch of arms and a whole bunch of intel to them.

00:25:04.960 | And I thought he did a good job at laying out

00:25:06.360 | like the limitation of the US involvement

00:25:08.040 | while opening as much as we could

00:25:09.720 | in the ways that we could help.

00:25:11.160 | But yeah, that looming threat

00:25:13.160 | of some sort of tactical nuclear weapon,

00:25:15.200 | I think on the table right now is like,

00:25:16.480 | it's gonna be the annihilation

00:25:17.600 | of like Russian sea forces and everything.

00:25:19.360 | But you know, what happens if it continues to escalate?

00:25:22.720 | That's like a world that nobody wants to be in, yeah.

00:25:26.760 | - So we talked about difficult conversations.

00:25:29.040 | And again, thank you so much

00:25:30.080 | for reviewing the yay conversation.

00:25:32.040 | Let me ask you about Putin.

00:25:34.480 | - Mm-hmm.

00:25:35.320 | - Speaking of difficult conversations.

00:25:37.840 | So if you sit down,

00:25:38.960 | if I sit down with somebody like Vladimir Putin

00:25:41.640 | or Vladimir Zelensky,

00:25:43.800 | what's the right way to have that conversation?

00:25:45.520 | - Oh man. - We can talk about that one

00:25:46.960 | or we could talk about somebody more well understood

00:25:51.960 | through history, like Stalin or Hitler,

00:25:56.800 | something like that.

00:25:57.680 | Maybe that's an easier example to illustrate

00:26:00.520 | how to handle extremely difficult conversations.

00:26:04.200 | - Yeah, I mean, I can handle really difficult conversations

00:26:06.000 | between like two people, leaders of countries though.

00:26:09.440 | There's so much that you are representing

00:26:11.680 | in that conversation.

00:26:13.360 | I guess the thing that would be interesting to me

00:26:16.160 | would be like, what is Vladimir Putin's interest?

00:26:19.520 | Like what is the genuine interest

00:26:21.640 | that he has in the conflict?

00:26:23.640 | 'Cause I think finding out like, what is your buy-in

00:26:25.480 | or what is the driving force keeping you here

00:26:27.840 | is probably the most important thing.

00:26:29.840 | I think for Zelensky,

00:26:30.680 | I think it's quite a bit more simpler

00:26:32.280 | 'cause he's on the defense.

00:26:34.160 | So it's defending his country and his people.

00:26:36.720 | For Putin, I've heard all sorts of things.

00:26:39.120 | Dugin has his writings on like the East versus the West,

00:26:42.520 | the collapse of the West in the face

00:26:44.000 | of like all of the liberalism

00:26:45.640 | and the weird LGBT stuff that they criticize.

00:26:48.080 | You've got the desire to like return

00:26:50.000 | to this like former Soviet Union-esque thing.

00:26:52.040 | You've got Putin's quotes that collapse of the Soviet Union

00:26:54.440 | was the biggest geopolitical disaster of 20th century.

00:26:58.160 | And I guess figuring out like, what is Putin after?

00:27:00.280 | I'm not actually sure.

00:27:01.120 | I don't know the answer to that question.

00:27:01.960 | I know a lot of people write about it, but yeah.

00:27:03.160 | - Well, there's a lot of answers to that question.

00:27:04.880 | There's a lot of answers that he can give to that question.

00:27:07.040 | So say I sit down with him for three hours and talk about it.

00:27:10.960 | I think this is a really interesting distinction

00:27:14.120 | because you do do difficult conversations

00:27:17.140 | in the space of ideas, but also in your stream,

00:27:20.080 | you have, I mean, there's a bunch of drama going on.

00:27:22.040 | There's a human psychology is laid out

00:27:24.480 | in its full richness before you.

00:27:27.640 | So to me with leaders,

00:27:29.440 | I think a part of the conversation has to be

00:27:32.500 | about the human psychology.

00:27:34.240 | Not like a meta conversation,

00:27:36.680 | but like really understand what they feel,

00:27:40.720 | what they fear, who they are as a human being.

00:27:43.560 | Like as a family man, as a person proud of their country,

00:27:48.560 | as a person with an ego, as a person who's been affected,

00:27:53.360 | if not corrupted by powers, all of us can be and likely are.

00:27:58.360 | So all of that, that gives context to then

00:28:01.920 | the answers about what do you want in this war.

00:28:04.480 | Is that the answers about what you want in this war

00:28:07.800 | will be political answers.

00:28:10.040 | It's like a game that's being played again with words

00:28:13.120 | and politicians are incredibly good at playing that game.

00:28:16.160 | I think the deeper truth comes from understanding

00:28:19.540 | the human being from which those words come.

00:28:22.320 | And I think that's what you do.

00:28:24.420 | I don't know if you do those kinds of conversations where--

00:28:26.560 | - Never talked to any country leader, so.

00:28:28.480 | - No, not a country leader,

00:28:29.860 | but say a controversial figure or somebody

00:28:32.440 | that represents a certain idea.

00:28:34.140 | Don't just talk in the space of ideas or challenge the ideas

00:28:37.880 | but understand who is this person,

00:28:39.780 | how did you come to those ideas?

00:28:41.840 | - Oh yeah, when I've had, there've been a couple

00:28:43.480 | of very controversial right-leaning figures.

00:28:47.320 | So the two, obviously the mainstreamers for me

00:28:48.720 | are Lauren Southern and Nick Fuentes.

00:28:51.120 | And those types of conversations initially

00:28:54.260 | aren't very political at all.

00:28:55.600 | Yeah, it's more like, obviously we believe

00:28:57.880 | in very, very, very different things,

00:28:59.600 | but like beliefs don't happen accidentally.

00:29:01.280 | So how did you get to where you are?

00:29:02.860 | Those are way more personal conversations, that's true.

00:29:05.200 | - Is there things you regret about those conversations

00:29:08.480 | where you failed?

00:29:09.520 | Is there things you're proud of where you succeeded?

00:29:12.200 | - For things that I'm proud of,

00:29:13.880 | I feel like I'm really good at attempting

00:29:17.080 | to understand people without judgment.

00:29:19.280 | That I think a lot of people feel like

00:29:20.400 | they can have conversations with me

00:29:21.460 | where they can share a lot

00:29:22.760 | and I'm not gonna jump down their throat

00:29:24.180 | for them having a politically incorrect observation

00:29:27.440 | or for them being judgmental of somebody else

00:29:29.600 | or having like a feeling that's maybe not something

00:29:31.820 | they should have, something they're embarrassed about.

00:29:33.400 | So I think I do a really good job at that.

00:29:35.000 | And then by extension of that,

00:29:36.560 | I've gotten the ability to hear perspectives

00:29:38.360 | from so many different people

00:29:39.400 | that I think I can understand

00:29:40.300 | a lot of different perspectives.

00:29:42.680 | For failures of mine, I mean, it's always gonna be,

00:29:46.600 | on stream it'll be like, I didn't push back hard enough

00:29:48.920 | or I didn't know like a certain fact for a conversation.

00:29:51.900 | These are usually the, they're gonna be on these

00:29:53.640 | like very technical grounds generally.

00:29:55.720 | I'm pretty happy with like the direction

00:29:57.080 | my conversations have gone recently,

00:29:59.360 | especially over like the past six months.

00:30:01.000 | - So your goal is to de-radicalize

00:30:04.120 | the audience of those folks.

00:30:06.680 | - So that used to be my goal.

00:30:08.780 | My goal was de-radicalization.

00:30:10.800 | Now I'm kind of hoping that that's just the by-product.

00:30:13.200 | So the goal I think is to talk to somebody

00:30:15.240 | and to show they believe this because of these reasons.

00:30:18.400 | And if you wanna change people's beliefs,

00:30:19.980 | we have to talk about the underlying reasons

00:30:21.640 | for why they think the things they think.

00:30:23.580 | It's not enough to just say like that belief is bad

00:30:26.000 | 'cause it's like, well, they believe it

00:30:27.120 | for a whole bunch of things that are true and real

00:30:28.660 | to them at least.

00:30:29.760 | So you have to address all of the underlying things

00:30:32.680 | that they believe before you can change

00:30:33.760 | the overlying belief.

00:30:35.360 | So if I'm having a conversation with somebody,

00:30:37.060 | it'll be like, okay, why do you feel this about that,

00:30:39.240 | that and that?

00:30:40.160 | Okay, I understand that.

00:30:41.560 | Maybe like a better way to solve that would be like

00:30:43.840 | this or that instead of this thing.

00:30:45.800 | - So to what degree do you have to empathize

00:30:48.200 | with the person's worldview versus pushback?

00:30:52.000 | - That's always the hard one.

00:30:53.940 | When I'm talking to other people,

00:30:55.940 | it's almost always me stepping as much inside their bubble

00:30:59.260 | as I can.

00:31:00.100 | I have to like live and breathe their worldview

00:31:01.580 | and be able to speak their worldview

00:31:03.380 | in order to like navigate their thoughts

00:31:05.480 | because my worldview is,

00:31:07.780 | I'm not even using this as an insult.

00:31:09.620 | I don't know if I am a little bit autistic or something,

00:31:11.620 | but when I break apart things,

00:31:13.260 | I just wanna see like study, study, study, fact, fact, fact.

00:31:15.460 | That's how my mind works for everything.

00:31:17.140 | That's what I like to see.

00:31:18.180 | Like personal stories don't do much for me.

00:31:20.300 | Narratives don't do much for me.

00:31:21.140 | They show me like the data and the studies or whatever.

00:31:23.060 | But for other people,

00:31:24.100 | I think most brains are more human than that.

00:31:26.040 | And they tend to see things that more kind of like

00:31:28.680 | surreal pictures that are kind of painted

00:31:30.360 | and the brushstrokes are way broader.

00:31:32.080 | And they don't care about the itty bitty tiny fact.

00:31:35.240 | So if I'm talking to somebody else

00:31:36.360 | and I'm trying to get into their head

00:31:38.160 | and I'm trying to change their mind on things,

00:31:40.040 | I'm gonna be stepping into their world

00:31:42.720 | and I'm gonna try to be working through that framework.

00:31:45.000 | Really good example might be,

00:31:46.600 | we'll say like when it comes to trans issues for minors,

00:31:49.960 | okay, 16 or 17 year old needs to get on puberty blockers.

00:31:52.980 | The way that I want that debate to play out

00:31:54.940 | is let's look at all the data.

00:31:57.180 | Let's see what are the outcomes.

00:31:58.940 | Let's see what are the processes for getting a medication.

00:32:00.860 | And then we'll evaluate all of that

00:32:01.980 | and then we'll go in whatever like points more favorably.

00:32:04.820 | But that's wholly unconvincing to most people, right?

00:32:07.020 | So as a parent,

00:32:07.920 | if I'm having that conversation with another parent,

00:32:09.800 | the easiest way for me to have that conversation is like,

00:32:11.580 | hey, we both have kids.

00:32:13.420 | Imagine how horrible it would be

00:32:14.660 | if we felt like our kids needed help

00:32:16.420 | and the government was trying to get between us

00:32:18.540 | and their doctor in that conversation.

00:32:20.560 | That might be how that talk plays out,

00:32:21.760 | which I don't even think that's a really good argument.

00:32:23.880 | 'Cause I think there probably are times

00:32:24.720 | when the government should get in between,

00:32:25.760 | but I'll have that conversation

00:32:26.760 | because now I'm in a world

00:32:28.320 | where they understand what I'm saying.

00:32:29.560 | I am resonating with the way that they feel about things

00:32:32.200 | and then I can make progress

00:32:33.480 | with the way that they're kind of viewing the world

00:32:35.200 | because I'm talking in a language they understand.

00:32:37.240 | - So on this particular topic of trans issues,

00:32:40.440 | is that the reason you were banned from Twitch?

00:32:42.600 | - I'm not sure, I don't know.

00:32:45.000 | They just said hate speech,

00:32:45.920 | but I don't use like slurs or anything.

00:32:47.280 | So it's hard to know exactly.

00:32:48.780 | - So I think you made the claim

00:32:50.360 | that trans women shouldn't compete with cis women

00:32:53.100 | in the women's athletics.

00:32:54.800 | Can you make this case

00:32:58.340 | and can you steel man the case against it?

00:33:00.500 | I think in your community,

00:33:01.740 | there's a lot of trans folks who love you

00:33:04.700 | and there's a lot who hate you.

00:33:06.460 | - Yeah.

00:33:07.300 | - And so if you can walk the tightrope of this conversation

00:33:11.260 | to try to steel man both sides.

00:33:13.220 | - One of the argumentative strategies I say

00:33:14.780 | is that like anytime you have a conversation,

00:33:16.340 | you should be able to argue both sides

00:33:17.520 | better than anybody else.

00:33:19.320 | So for my side, the genuine belief side,

00:33:22.860 | it feels like overwhelmingly,

00:33:26.200 | all of the data is showing that trans,

00:33:28.980 | mostly trans women, even after I think three years

00:33:32.640 | on some sort of like HRT or estrogen stuff,

00:33:37.360 | they're still maintaining these advantages

00:33:39.440 | from their male puberty over cisgender women.

00:33:42.700 | And if that is the case,

00:33:43.920 | if we are gonna draw these distinctions

00:33:45.780 | around our sports between women and men,

00:33:48.380 | it feels unfair to have a category inside the women's sports

00:33:51.840 | that are maintaining advantages

00:33:53.640 | that are coming from a male puberty,

00:33:55.840 | regardless of the amount of time they've spent

00:33:57.480 | on hormone replacement therapy.

00:34:00.280 | So that would be my argument on that side.

00:34:02.320 | - So it's unfair from a performance enhancement aspect.

00:34:06.460 | So the same way we ban performance enhancing drugs

00:34:11.180 | that involve increasing of testosterone

00:34:14.140 | in that same way would be unfair.

00:34:15.760 | - Essentially, yeah.

00:34:16.600 | - So what's the case against?

00:34:20.000 | - Yeah, so the case in favor of them competing together

00:34:22.680 | is that realistically,

00:34:24.400 | there's not gonna be a trans sports category.

00:34:27.940 | Realistically, trans women aren't gonna be competitive

00:34:30.380 | with cis men because they've gone through these huge,

00:34:33.080 | you know, like hormone changes

00:34:34.540 | by the medication they're taking.

00:34:36.640 | And that when we look at how sports are kind of done anyway,

00:34:40.360 | there's a whole bunch of biological differences

00:34:42.760 | between people within sports categories

00:34:44.860 | that are determining their placement

00:34:46.360 | in the professional world.

00:34:48.100 | So for instance, somebody like me

00:34:50.460 | is probably never gonna go far in the NBA

00:34:51.980 | because I'm not tall enough.

00:34:53.420 | I think the average height in the NBA--

00:34:54.740 | - Don't doubt yourself.

00:34:55.620 | - Don't doubt myself, yeah.

00:34:56.460 | I wanna say it's like six or something.

00:34:58.100 | They're huge people.

00:34:59.900 | Or, you know, you look at like Michael Phelps

00:35:02.660 | as a classic example of a guy whose torso is like so long,

00:35:05.620 | his body is built for swimming.

00:35:07.460 | And I think there are some trans people

00:35:09.100 | that will look at that

00:35:09.940 | or somebody advocating for this position,

00:35:11.380 | they'll look at that and they'll go,

00:35:12.220 | "Okay, realistically, the way that Michael Phelps' body

00:35:15.140 | processes lactic acid,

00:35:16.380 | the shape physiologically of his body

00:35:18.280 | is gonna put him in a level of competition

00:35:20.420 | that so many men are never gonna reach

00:35:22.060 | just because of biology.

00:35:23.660 | How is it fair that you can have these biological outliers

00:35:26.300 | competing in these categories,

00:35:27.780 | but then when we come to like sports categories

00:35:29.540 | with trans and cis women,

00:35:30.660 | you're gonna take trans women

00:35:31.740 | and say that they can't compete against cis women.

00:35:33.500 | Can't you also just say that they have

00:35:34.700 | some level of biological difference there?

00:35:37.060 | Like, is it really gonna be that great of a difference

00:35:38.880 | than what Michael Phelps has versus the average swimmer

00:35:41.240 | or an NBA player has versus like the average height male?

00:35:44.040 | - Yeah.

00:35:46.340 | Do you think we're gonna get into

00:35:47.460 | some tricky ethical territory

00:35:49.500 | as we start to be able to,

00:35:51.380 | through biology and genetics, modify the human body?

00:35:54.940 | - Absolutely.

00:35:56.380 | I feel like those things are coming sooner

00:35:58.620 | than we wanted them to.

00:36:00.780 | Oh man, have you seen the AI art?

00:36:03.780 | - Yes.

00:36:04.620 | - That's a--

00:36:05.440 | - Of course, I'm an AI person.

00:36:06.540 | - Oh, okay, then yeah, yeah.

00:36:07.980 | That's always been like,

00:36:09.980 | what's gonna happen when robots can do art

00:36:12.520 | better than humans, LOL?

00:36:13.920 | Like, well, we'll see in 20 years,

00:36:15.360 | in 20 years, in 20 years.

00:36:16.600 | And now you have AI art winning competitions.

00:36:19.360 | And it's funny because robots are essentially--

00:36:24.040 | - There's a robot behind you, by the way.

00:36:25.400 | - A robot behind me.

00:36:26.680 | Oh, nice.

00:36:27.520 | Robots are really good--

00:36:29.800 | - Careful what you say.

00:36:30.640 | - Yeah, oh God, I'll be careful.

00:36:32.360 | That's not like one of the Chinese ones

00:36:33.560 | with a gun on it, right?

00:36:34.400 | Oh, okay.

00:36:35.220 | Hopefully not.

00:36:37.680 | - We'll see, depending on what you say, yeah.

00:36:39.280 | - Okay.

00:36:40.120 | Robots are really good at showing the limitations

00:36:43.360 | of the human mind in categories

00:36:46.120 | that we didn't believe we were limited before.

00:36:48.560 | I think that humans have this idea intrinsically

00:36:51.820 | that we have some type of innovative, creative drive

00:36:56.820 | that is just outside of the bounds of physical understanding.

00:37:00.940 | And with a sophisticated enough program,

00:37:03.480 | we see that maybe that's not actually true.

00:37:05.520 | And that's a really scary thing,

00:37:07.460 | philosophically, to deal with.

00:37:08.900 | Because we feel like we're very special, right?

00:37:10.360 | We own the planet, we make computers,

00:37:12.680 | and the idea that you can start to get these robots

00:37:14.480 | that can do things that's like, okay, you can do math, fine.

00:37:17.280 | Okay, you can do calculations, fine.

00:37:19.240 | But you can't do art.

00:37:20.240 | That's the human stuff.

00:37:21.760 | And then when they start to do that, it's like, oh, shoot.

00:37:23.920 | - And that terrifies you a little bit?

00:37:25.440 | Like the human species losing control

00:37:28.800 | of our dominance over this earth?

00:37:31.040 | - I don't think it's necessarily losing control

00:37:32.200 | of our dominance.

00:37:33.040 | I mean, I guess like a Skynet thing

00:37:34.240 | could come in at some point.

00:37:35.760 | But I think it brings us to this really fundamental level

00:37:39.660 | of like, what does it mean to be human?

00:37:41.500 | What is it that we're good at?

00:37:43.460 | What should we be doing with technology?

00:37:45.100 | We never really ask that question in the Western world.

00:37:47.060 | It's always the technology is like normative

00:37:50.000 | in that technology equals good

00:37:51.940 | and more technology equals better.

00:37:53.380 | That's been like the default assumption.

00:37:54.940 | In fact, if you ask a lot of people,

00:37:56.420 | how do you know if civilization has progressed

00:37:58.060 | over the past 100 or 200 years,

00:37:59.740 | they don't say we have better relationships,

00:38:01.740 | we have longer marriages, blah, blah, blah.

00:38:04.660 | They'll say technology has improved.

00:38:05.700 | We've got crazy phones, we've got crazy computers.

00:38:07.700 | And the idea that more technology might be bad

00:38:10.420 | has never even crossed somebody's mind,

00:38:11.840 | unless it's used for like a really bad thing.

00:38:13.980 | - Well, it's interesting.

00:38:15.080 | We kind of think as more and more automation is happening,

00:38:18.080 | we're going to get more and more meaning

00:38:20.000 | from things like being artists and doing creative pursuits.

00:38:23.740 | And here's like, oh shit, if the art,

00:38:27.220 | if the creative pursuits are also being automated,

00:38:29.460 | then what are we gonna gain meaning from?

00:38:31.300 | What are the activities from which you'll gain meaning?

00:38:33.540 | You know, my whole life I've been working

00:38:35.120 | on artificial intelligence systems.

00:38:36.700 | There's been different revolutions.

00:38:38.260 | One of them is the machine learning revolution.

00:38:40.980 | And it's interesting to build up intuition

00:38:44.220 | and destroy that intuition about what is

00:38:48.340 | and isn't solvable by machines.

00:38:50.580 | I think for the longest time, I grew up thinking

00:38:54.140 | Go is not, the game of Go is not solvable.

00:38:57.100 | Because my understanding of AI systems

00:39:01.180 | is ultimately this, is fundamentally a search mechanism

00:39:06.180 | that is fundamentally going to be brute force.

00:39:09.240 | There's no shortcuts.

00:39:10.400 | - Sure.

00:39:11.240 | Like if it can't solve the traveling salesman problem,

00:39:13.600 | it's not even gonna be able to give you an approximation.

00:39:15.760 | - So most interesting problems

00:39:17.240 | are giant travel salesman problem.

00:39:19.200 | And then, so of course, it's not gonna be able to solve that.

00:39:21.640 | And then you, then the deep learning revolution

00:39:25.160 | made you realize, holy shit, these large neural networks

00:39:27.520 | with a giant number of knobs is able

00:39:29.760 | to actually somehow estimate functions

00:39:34.760 | that can do a pretty good job

00:39:38.160 | of understanding deep representation of a thing.

00:39:41.200 | Whether that's a game of Go,

00:39:42.940 | or whether it's the human natural language,

00:39:46.120 | or if it's images and video or audio,

00:39:50.120 | and even actions in different video games

00:39:52.320 | and actions of robotics and so on.

00:39:54.820 | And then you realize with diffusion models

00:39:57.260 | and different generative models,

00:39:59.840 | you start to realize, holy shit,

00:40:01.100 | it can actually generate not just interesting representations

00:40:06.100 | or interesting manifestations

00:40:10.920 | of the representations of forms,

00:40:12.720 | but it's able to do something

00:40:13.880 | that impresses humans in its creativity.

00:40:16.660 | It's beautiful in the way we think of art as beautiful.

00:40:19.640 | Like it surprises us and makes us chuckle,

00:40:21.640 | it makes us sit back in awe and all those kinds of things.

00:40:25.360 | And yet the thing that it seems to struggle with the most

00:40:28.140 | is the physical world currently.

00:40:30.380 | So that's counterintuitive.

00:40:31.780 | We humans think that it's pretty trivial,

00:40:35.260 | the being able to pick up a cup,

00:40:38.100 | being able to write with a pen,

00:40:40.060 | like in the physical space, we think that's trivial.

00:40:42.940 | We give ourselves respect for being great artists

00:40:45.180 | and great mathematicians and all that kind of stuff,

00:40:47.860 | and that seems to be much easier than the physical space.

00:40:51.100 | - Bodies are really cool.

00:40:52.500 | - Yeah. - There is a, I don't know,

00:40:54.420 | it's probably Asimov or somebody,

00:40:55.440 | there was some science fiction writer

00:40:56.600 | that had a short story and it was like an alien

00:40:58.360 | that had landed on earth and it was describing our bodies

00:41:00.640 | from a totally alien perspective.

00:41:02.480 | And when you think about all the things we can do,

00:41:04.440 | it's pretty cool.

00:41:05.280 | We can climb through a whole multitude of environments,

00:41:08.880 | we can exist in a multitude of temperatures,

00:41:10.860 | we can manipulate things just with our hands

00:41:14.840 | and the way that we can interact with things around us.

00:41:17.160 | And yeah, we're very capable on like a physical level,

00:41:19.440 | even though, like you said, we think about ourselves like,

00:41:21.080 | oh, well, human beings have really big brains and we do,

00:41:23.160 | we're really intelligent as well,

00:41:24.160 | but yeah, our bodies are pretty cool too.

00:41:26.380 | - And it's a fascinating hierarchical biological system.

00:41:30.640 | Like we're made up of a bunch of different

00:41:34.080 | like living organisms that all don't know

00:41:38.000 | about the big picture of our body.

00:41:40.880 | And it's all functioning in its own little local world

00:41:42.920 | and it's doing its thing, but together it has,

00:41:46.400 | it forms a super resilient system.

00:41:48.940 | All of that comes from a very

00:41:53.880 | compressed encoding of what makes a human.

00:41:57.200 | You start with the DNA and it builds up

00:41:59.120 | from a single cell to a giant organism.

00:42:01.700 | I mean, and because of the DNA,

00:42:05.600 | through the evolution process,

00:42:06.780 | you can constantly create new humans

00:42:09.240 | and new living organisms that adapt to the environment.

00:42:12.080 | Like that resilience to the physical world,

00:42:15.120 | it seems like running the whole earth over again,

00:42:19.060 | the whole evolutionary process over again

00:42:22.480 | might be the only way to do it.

00:42:25.240 | So to create a robot that actually adapts,

00:42:27.920 | is as resilient to the dynamic world,

00:42:32.060 | might be a really difficult problem.

00:42:34.360 | - Possibly.

00:42:35.400 | Well, I was gonna say like in a programming environment,

00:42:37.000 | you can do things on timescales

00:42:38.660 | that are impossible in the real world, right?

00:42:41.040 | Like the benefit to AI and computers is computationally,

00:42:43.440 | they can compute so much data so quickly.

00:42:45.960 | Whereas on human timetables, we have to wait.

00:42:48.280 | When you talk about evolution,

00:42:50.000 | you know, it's generation after generation after generation.

00:42:53.160 | Maybe in a virtual environment that could be simulated

00:42:55.720 | and then those changes could happen a lot quicker.

00:42:57.400 | - Well, that's on a human timescale,

00:42:58.720 | but you have to look at earth

00:43:00.960 | as a quantum mechanical system,

00:43:03.260 | the computation is happening super fast.

00:43:05.240 | This is a giant computer doing a giant simulation.

00:43:08.140 | So just 'cause for us humans, it's slow,

00:43:10.720 | there's like trillions of organisms involved in you,

00:43:13.720 | destiny being you.

00:43:15.480 | - Sure, but the next iteration of like from human to human,

00:43:19.480 | even if on the quantum level, there's a lot of stuff

00:43:21.080 | going on, you talk about like changes in DNA,

00:43:23.560 | for instance, right?

00:43:24.680 | Like that's happening from a generation

00:43:26.760 | to generation timescale.

00:43:27.920 | Like in a virtual environment,

00:43:28.880 | that could theoretically happen.

00:43:30.280 | Well, it already is, there's like protein folding,

00:43:32.160 | like huge cloud computing, probably ML stuff

00:43:35.000 | that's like working on doing all of that stuff.

00:43:36.320 | And it'll run like trillions and trillions of simulations,

00:43:38.400 | you know, every second and stuff, maybe not every second,

00:43:40.440 | but-- - Still slower

00:43:41.960 | than the actual protein folding, much slower.

00:43:45.520 | That's for the problem of solving protein folding

00:43:49.680 | to estimate the 3D structure, but the actual body

00:43:52.360 | does the actual protein folding way faster.

00:43:54.960 | So like we're, the question is, can we shortcut

00:43:58.040 | the simulation of human evolution,

00:44:00.840 | try to figure out how to build up an organism

00:44:03.040 | without simulating all the details?

00:44:05.360 | 'Cause we have to simulate all the details of biology

00:44:07.960 | where we're screwed, we don't have--

00:44:09.600 | - Oh, true, we'd have to put something in a pond

00:44:11.200 | and then watch it for a billion years.

00:44:12.280 | - That might be the most efficient way to do it.

00:44:14.040 | - Sure. - That's what the universe

00:44:15.760 | most likely is, is a kind of simulation created

00:44:18.720 | by a teenager in their basement to try to see what happens.

00:44:22.620 | It's a computer game.

00:44:24.480 | That might be the most efficient way

00:44:25.840 | to create interesting organisms.

00:44:28.200 | But within the system, it's perhaps possible

00:44:31.280 | to create other robots that will be of use

00:44:36.280 | and will entertain us in the way

00:44:38.800 | that other humans entertain us.

00:44:40.680 | And that's a really interesting, of course, problem.

00:44:42.920 | But it's surprising how difficult it has been

00:44:46.120 | to create systems that operate in the physical world

00:44:49.920 | and operate in that physical world

00:44:51.240 | in a way that's safe to humans and interesting to humans.

00:44:55.640 | 'Cause there's also the human factor,

00:44:57.160 | the human-robot interaction.

00:44:58.520 | To me, that's the most interesting problem,

00:45:00.680 | to figure out how to do that well.

00:45:02.680 | And so Elon Musk and others, Boston Dynamics

00:45:07.120 | have worked on legged robots,

00:45:08.320 | so I really care about legged robots.

00:45:11.120 | Those are super interesting.

00:45:12.800 | How to make them such that they're able

00:45:16.360 | to operate successfully in a dynamic environment.

00:45:18.840 | It's super tricky.

00:45:20.080 | They're like the dumbest of dogs,

00:45:23.120 | speaking of which, there's a dog barking outside.

00:45:25.520 | It's really tricky to create those kinds of organisms

00:45:29.080 | that live in the human world.

00:45:31.680 | Then again, if more and more of us move

00:45:35.720 | into the digital world, so you stream a lot,

00:45:39.880 | like part of who you are exists in the digital space.

00:45:44.880 | The fact that you have a physical representation also,

00:45:48.520 | maybe more and more will become not important.

00:45:51.580 | - I hope that's the case,

00:45:53.440 | 'cause I bought a lot of stock in Meta,

00:45:54.680 | and man, it's down a lot.

00:45:57.080 | - Meta the company?

00:45:59.000 | Is there some degree, can you look at yourself,

00:46:02.360 | like Steven, the physical meat vehicle,

00:46:05.000 | and then the destiny, this digital space,

00:46:07.820 | like digital avatar, do you sense that in a certain way

00:46:12.780 | you're the digital avatar?

00:46:14.740 | - I've always tried to keep my on-stream personality

00:46:16.740 | as genuine as possible, so they're one and the same to me.

00:46:19.440 | I don't really view them as two separate entities,

00:46:21.740 | but I mean, I always view myself as Steven,

00:46:23.780 | the real-life person.

00:46:25.260 | Destiny's my online name, but--

00:46:26.900 | - No, but because your social network

00:46:29.420 | is established in the digital space,

00:46:31.020 | so many people know you through the digital space.

00:46:33.460 | Can we swap out another person that looks like you?

00:46:37.180 | In like an AI system, and then that entity

00:46:40.100 | known as destiny will continue existing.

00:46:42.140 | - I mean, there must be some level of sophistication

00:46:45.460 | that could emulate a human brain, I would imagine, right?

00:46:48.260 | Probably the tech's not there yet, but--

00:46:50.820 | - Well, the question is, what's the level of sophistication

00:46:53.820 | of the audience that would recognize

00:46:55.580 | that something has changed?

00:46:56.940 | It's the Turing test.

00:47:00.340 | How hard is it to trick your audience,

00:47:03.500 | your large audience of fans that watch your streams,

00:47:07.460 | that when you swap out an AI that emulates you,

00:47:11.220 | that nothing has changed?

00:47:13.180 | And the question is, do you have to really simulate

00:47:16.180 | so much of the human brain for that?

00:47:18.020 | I don't think so.

00:47:19.180 | - Probably not.

00:47:20.940 | - So, I mean, like you said, a lot of political discourse

00:47:25.420 | is just walking down the tree together,

00:47:27.740 | so you can probably emulate a lot of that discussion.

00:47:30.380 | - Yeah, it would depend on if you're doing old data sets

00:47:32.620 | and you're training on that,

00:47:33.500 | and I'm having conversations about abortion

00:47:35.300 | and you're creating vaccines,

00:47:36.300 | I imagine it could do it for quite a while.

00:47:38.060 | The only thing that would be weird

00:47:38.900 | is when novel issues pop up.

00:47:40.420 | Then you probably need a more sophisticated resemblance

00:47:43.380 | of the inner brain, right?

00:47:44.220 | - You have to keep training on the internet,

00:47:46.340 | so how the language models,

00:47:47.500 | and that's the most incredible breakthrough,

00:47:49.140 | is just the language models.

00:47:50.380 | You just have to keep retraining the system on Reddit,

00:47:54.220 | which is actually what a lot of it is trained on,

00:47:56.260 | which is hilarious.

00:47:57.380 | - I do think it's really interesting

00:47:58.580 | that funny problems, like the trolley problem,

00:48:01.140 | that we can kind of work through our

00:48:02.540 | normative ethical systems on,

00:48:03.740 | are now like real questions.

00:48:05.820 | If you're driving a Tesla and it's on autopilot

00:48:07.540 | and you're gonna hit somebody,

00:48:08.380 | but it can swerve and hit somebody else,

00:48:10.100 | what ought the system do?

00:48:11.940 | We went very quickly from fun project in philosophy class

00:48:15.980 | to we need to solve this for insurance purposes

00:48:18.580 | as quickly as possible.

00:48:19.580 | It's kind of interesting to think about.

00:48:21.100 | - Well, I actually have,

00:48:22.700 | I'll bring up the trolley problem with you later.

00:48:25.100 | There's a fascinating version of it that I find hilarious.

00:48:28.260 | Okay, let's return to your low point.

00:48:30.940 | - Oh yeah.

00:48:31.780 | - You started playing video games.

00:48:34.220 | That was a lucky break.

00:48:36.100 | You did text-based ones.

00:48:37.300 | That was a lucky break

00:48:38.140 | 'cause you've gotten to be pretty good at learning.

00:48:40.380 | And then you started thinking about going to college

00:48:43.180 | and so on.

00:48:44.020 | What happened next?

00:48:44.860 | - I mean, I went to like a prep school.

00:48:46.260 | So you kind of have to go to college after.

00:48:47.940 | That's like the point, right?

00:48:48.780 | I was also a millennial.

00:48:50.020 | All of us had to go to college.

00:48:51.020 | That's always what they told us.

00:48:52.060 | So my life was kind of,

00:48:54.820 | it's hard to describe.

00:48:57.300 | I didn't really think much of the future.

00:48:58.780 | I was just kind of enjoying the day-to-day

00:49:00.340 | 'cause everything in my life was pretty weird.

00:49:02.340 | Both my parents had moved to Florida

00:49:04.260 | by the time I was 16, 17.

00:49:05.860 | I was living with my grandma.

00:49:06.700 | I was working.

00:49:07.820 | I had a girlfriend, moved out.

00:49:09.980 | We got a place, did college.

00:49:11.560 | By the time I got into college,

00:49:13.820 | I had transitioned from working at McDonald's

00:49:16.340 | to I was like working in a casino restaurant basically.

00:49:19.260 | And I was really good at that job.

00:49:21.020 | So high level of patience for drunk people and sane people.

00:49:24.700 | And I was doing music in school

00:49:26.700 | 'cause I'd really grown to love music.

00:49:28.140 | And my kind of thought process was,

00:49:30.380 | my thought process was I can do music as a hobby, I guess,

00:49:33.260 | unless I get really good

00:49:34.100 | and maybe I can make money with that.

00:49:35.260 | But otherwise I love music.

00:49:36.420 | I'm okay going to school for music, getting good at it.

00:49:38.220 | And then just doing that on the side.

00:49:39.580 | And then my main job would kind of be

00:49:40.580 | this career I was building at the casino.

00:49:43.420 | And basically the trying to balance personal life

00:49:47.040 | plus graveyard shift, six to eight weeks at a casino,

00:49:49.540 | and then a full-time music degree was not possible for me.

00:49:52.340 | And eventually I had to drop school

00:49:53.840 | after I think it was like three years.

00:49:55.860 | And after I dropped school to maintain my casino job,

00:49:59.220 | after a few months, I got fired from my casino job.

00:50:02.220 | So I'd essentially just thrown away

00:50:03.260 | like the past like three or four years of my life.

00:50:05.900 | - Why'd you get fired from the casino job?

00:50:07.740 | I heard there's a story behind that.

00:50:09.180 | - Yeah, there's a story.

00:50:10.060 | Basically I was just really dumb

00:50:11.420 | when it came to understanding corporate politics.

00:50:13.180 | And this is funny 'cause the same attitude

00:50:14.700 | kind of followed me into the streaming world.

00:50:17.180 | My thought process has kind of always been

00:50:19.220 | that like as long as I'm really good at what I do,

00:50:21.760 | I should be untouchable.

00:50:22.860 | If I'm really good, you can't do anything to me.

00:50:24.420 | I don't have to play any dumb games or whatever.

00:50:26.660 | And at the casino, I think I was the youngest.

00:50:29.660 | It was originally shiftly

00:50:30.740 | than supervisor position at the casino.

00:50:33.340 | And when I started to get my own shifts,

00:50:35.900 | there were problems that I would run into on graveyard shift

00:50:38.160 | because of carryover from the swing shift.

00:50:40.500 | I remember one of these problems

00:50:41.400 | was underneath the soda machine,

00:50:42.700 | they weren't cleaning it properly

00:50:43.780 | and fruit flies were showing up.

00:50:45.500 | And the manager came in one morning and she was like,

00:50:48.700 | "Hey, what's going on with the machine?"

00:50:50.780 | And I told her, I was like,

00:50:51.620 | "I'm done, I can't take everything from swing shift

00:50:54.460 | and do everything at grave shift, I can't do this.

00:50:55.980 | They need to figure out their stuff better

00:50:57.340 | or I need more employees, it's not possible for me."

00:50:59.460 | And she's like, "What did you tell anybody else?"

00:51:00.740 | I was like, "Yeah, I complained to the supervisor

00:51:02.740 | on the swing shift all the time."

00:51:04.340 | And she told me, "If you're not getting the answer

00:51:06.840 | that you like, then it's your responsibility

00:51:08.900 | to email the next person up."

00:51:11.100 | And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's interesting."

00:51:13.220 | And some months went on and I ran into more problems

00:51:16.020 | because on graveyard, here's how,

00:51:18.080 | I don't know if it's everywhere,

00:51:19.020 | but morning shift is the easiest

00:51:20.820 | and that's when you're the most overstaffed

00:51:22.060 | because that's when all the VPs are in

00:51:23.420 | and that's when all the managers are there

00:51:24.660 | and everybody blah, blah, blah.

00:51:25.620 | Swing shift is the most challenging,

00:51:27.460 | that's where your highest flow of customers is.

00:51:29.620 | You're also decently staffed there,

00:51:30.800 | but there's a lot of stuff going on.

00:51:32.020 | And graveyard, nobody cares at all about you.

00:51:34.540 | They don't give you any employees.

00:51:35.900 | You might get swamped, you might not, who cares?

00:51:37.780 | Make sure it's clean for day shift,

00:51:38.860 | that's the only thing that matters.

00:51:39.780 | - A quick question, first of all, clarification.

00:51:41.500 | So this is 24 hour?

00:51:43.740 | - 24 hour diner, yeah, inside the casino, yeah.

00:51:45.420 | - So it's a diner in a casino.

00:51:47.020 | Oh, by the way, I had an amazing moment

00:51:48.820 | at a diner in a casino recently.

00:51:50.580 | It's a special place.

00:51:51.860 | A diner in a casino is a place of magic.

00:51:54.140 | - There's a lot of, I don't know if I'd say magic,

00:51:56.220 | but there's a lot of other worldly stuff going on.

00:51:57.860 | - There's characters, there's,

00:51:59.540 | and I had an interaction with a waitress

00:52:01.980 | that was the sweetest waitress in the world.

00:52:03.980 | And it was just like, I don't know,

00:52:05.580 | made me feel less alone in this cruel world of ours.

00:52:09.620 | So graveyard begins when?

00:52:11.580 | - For me, my shift was 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.

00:52:13.900 | Or sometimes I got called in early,

00:52:15.060 | so it'd be 8 p.m. to 6 a.m.

00:52:16.740 | - That's no love for that shift.

00:52:19.620 | - No, especially not trying to do school at the same time.

00:52:21.380 | Absolutely not.

00:52:22.260 | But yeah, basically, long story short,

00:52:24.600 | I ran into a problem with my,

00:52:25.700 | where I didn't have enough employees on my shift.

00:52:28.020 | VPs were coming in in the morning,

00:52:29.220 | and they're just like, "Hey, the diner's kind of dirty."

00:52:31.020 | And I'm like, "You've cut all my employees past 4 a.m."

00:52:33.100 | Like on some nights, I'm literally cooking

00:52:34.580 | and doing front of house, like all on my own.

00:52:36.500 | Like, I can't do this.

00:52:37.820 | And my manager, Pam, told me,

00:52:39.980 | "Well, you've got to figure it out."

00:52:41.340 | And so I remembered her advice.

00:52:43.260 | So I emailed the VP of food and beverage, and I CC'd her.

00:52:45.940 | And I said, "I'm not getting the help

00:52:46.980 | "I need on my restaurant."

00:52:48.020 | Now, I didn't know at the time

00:52:48.980 | that I was basically completely throwing her under the bus

00:52:51.380 | because of that email.

00:52:52.740 | But retroactively, when I look back on things,

00:52:55.900 | or retrospectively, I see that was the moment

00:52:58.140 | that I got marked for deletion.

00:53:00.140 | And I didn't really understand it,

00:53:01.500 | even though I'd heard terminology

00:53:02.980 | for papering somebody out the door.

00:53:04.340 | But after that point, I started to get written up

00:53:06.140 | for a lot of little, random things.

00:53:07.900 | Like, I'd missed one day of work

00:53:10.140 | in my three years at the casino.

00:53:11.940 | And I started to get written up

00:53:13.220 | for showing up one or two minutes late.

00:53:14.980 | That's kind of weird, I don't know, that's whatever.

00:53:16.900 | Or written up for random ways about filing paperwork.

00:53:19.140 | And then eventually there came a situation

00:53:20.860 | with another employee where they were,

00:53:23.340 | it's complicated, it has to do with call-out stuff.

00:53:24.820 | But basically, they wanted to call out,

00:53:27.460 | and I told them that if they called out,

00:53:28.620 | they were gonna get fired because they were at 10 points.

00:53:31.580 | They were at nine points and 10 points

00:53:32.740 | of the firing, blah, blah, blah.

00:53:33.740 | Pam told me, "You can tell her

00:53:35.220 | "that she's gonna get a point,

00:53:36.060 | "but you can't tell her she's gonna get fired."

00:53:37.460 | I don't know what that meant.

00:53:38.420 | And then I told her that if you call out,

00:53:39.980 | you're fucked, you're gonna get fired,

00:53:42.060 | or you're gonna be at 10 points.

00:53:43.460 | And then I got called in early, like three days later,

00:53:45.740 | and Pam was like, "You inappropriately communicated

00:53:47.900 | "with an employee because you said the F word

00:53:49.540 | "in a text message."

00:53:50.420 | And I'm like, "Really?

00:53:51.260 | "There's no shot."

00:53:52.260 | And she's like, "Well, you also tried to fire the employee."

00:53:53.980 | And I was like, "No, I told her

00:53:54.800 | "she was gonna get 10 points."

00:53:55.940 | She's like, "Well, you used the F word."

00:53:57.060 | I'm like, "This is insane."

00:53:58.580 | And I didn't, just 'cause I was such a high-performing

00:54:01.140 | employee, I was like, "There's no way I'm getting fired."

00:54:02.500 | And then I did, and I was like, "Yeah."

00:54:04.500 | Cashed out my 401(k) and moped for like three months

00:54:07.020 | 'cause I had thrown away school for this casino job.

00:54:09.780 | And then I got fired from this job that, yeah,

00:54:11.860 | nobody believed I got fired.

00:54:13.260 | It was just insane.

00:54:14.460 | - So if you look back, if you were allowed to not just

00:54:16.460 | to look back to your own memory, but actually watch yourself,

00:54:20.020 | like somebody recorded a video that whole time,

00:54:22.660 | do you think you would be surprised,

00:54:24.360 | you would notice some things, like potentially,

00:54:26.860 | of not having a self-awareness, not having social,

00:54:30.620 | like a civility and social etiquette that's played

00:54:33.340 | in the human relations?

00:54:34.860 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:54:35.860 | - So is that at the core of it, essentially?

00:54:39.340 | - Yeah, I think so.

00:54:40.180 | I mean, it follows me even to this day.

00:54:41.780 | There's a lot of, I don't know if you're recording or not,

00:54:44.380 | but when we spoke earlier about like meta conversations,

00:54:46.420 | I have to think a lot sometimes about meta conversations

00:54:48.620 | 'cause the way that I wanna drive a conversation

00:54:50.460 | will sometimes be way different than what is like

00:54:52.620 | the best way to have a conversation.

00:54:54.460 | Whereas I just wanna like go really hard

00:54:56.380 | on like some itty-bitty, like some idiosyncrasy,

00:54:59.020 | some factor, figure, whatever,

00:55:00.420 | but that's not like the human conversation I need to have.

00:55:03.260 | - So you got fired/left that job,

00:55:07.580 | and that took you to the job that would be the lowest point.

00:55:11.300 | - Yeah.

00:55:12.140 | (Lex laughing)

00:55:12.960 | 'Cause there was a huge downgrade in pay.

00:55:15.340 | I went from getting like, I think at the casino,

00:55:17.660 | 'cause I worked so much overtime,

00:55:18.860 | I was getting like 20 to 50 an hour on all my overtime.

00:55:21.140 | And this was back in 2008, 2009, as like a college student.

00:55:25.060 | Like it was amazing pay.

00:55:26.500 | The guy had benefits, like everything was good.

00:55:29.260 | And then the carpet cleaning was like,

00:55:30.940 | I was probably getting my paycheck like every other week

00:55:33.700 | was maybe 1,500 bucks or $1,000.

00:55:36.780 | And I'm working like 13 day stretches.

00:55:39.220 | Like I have every other Sunday off, and it's so many hours.

00:55:42.260 | Like I have to show up at the shop at like seven or six,

00:55:44.620 | and then I go home at like eight or nine,

00:55:46.700 | depending on when my jobs are throughout the day.

00:55:48.340 | - You doing businesses or residential,

00:55:50.620 | or what are you doing?

00:55:51.460 | - Everything.

00:55:52.280 | - Everything.

00:55:53.120 | Are you working for a company that does carpet cleaning?

00:55:55.060 | - Yeah.

00:55:56.100 | - Okay, and so like there's a schedule thing,

00:55:57.940 | you have to go to it and so on.

00:55:59.260 | - Yeah, but so like this is why the schedule would suck.

00:56:01.460 | 'Cause sometimes I'd show up at,

00:56:03.500 | I think we had to be in the shop at,

00:56:04.900 | I think it was 7 a.m.

00:56:06.020 | We show up at the shop at 7 a.m.

00:56:07.540 | First job might be at eight or nine,

00:56:09.140 | but that job might be like a one hour job.

00:56:10.800 | So I might show up at 7 a.m.

00:56:11.780 | and have a job from 8.30 to 9.30.

00:56:13.340 | Then my next job might not be from,

00:56:15.100 | until like say 11.

00:56:16.260 | So from 8.30 to 9.30 I'll do one job.

00:56:18.420 | And then I've got a job from like 11 to 12 or something.

00:56:21.740 | Then I might have like a decent job from like five to eight.

00:56:24.900 | But like my whole day is destroyed.

00:56:26.700 | And I'm doing like three smallest jobs.

00:56:30.340 | So I'm getting like 30 bucks maybe for being in the shop,

00:56:33.300 | or you know, my job for like 10 or 11 hours.

00:56:35.420 | It's just like horrible.

00:56:36.980 | - So you're somebody that seems to be extremely good

00:56:39.580 | at thinking and conversation.

00:56:41.460 | And so have a bit of an ego perhaps,

00:56:44.860 | in both the negative and the positive sense of that word.

00:56:48.300 | Was there some aspect of working at McDonald's

00:56:52.220 | and then working at the casino

00:56:53.900 | and then working as a carpet cleaner that was humbling?

00:56:57.580 | - No, never.

00:56:58.840 | I had a--

00:57:00.780 | - The ego burned bright through it all.

00:57:04.180 | Or no, you can push back on the ego.

00:57:06.020 | - Yeah, no, I understand.

00:57:06.900 | I totally get what you mean.

00:57:08.140 | I had a really close friend growing up whose name was Chris.

00:57:11.020 | And I think we probably met when he was,

00:57:12.460 | we were like four or five, I think.

00:57:13.900 | He lived behind me.

00:57:15.060 | And I grew up with him

00:57:16.260 | and I'd always been kind of an outsider

00:57:18.360 | to the world that I was in

00:57:20.580 | once I got to high school for sure.

00:57:22.540 | Because all of those kids were incredibly wealthy,

00:57:25.020 | you know, Corvettes and Mustangs when they turned 16.

00:57:27.560 | It was a prep school.

00:57:28.660 | And I was doing the,

00:57:29.980 | they had like a work study program there

00:57:31.380 | where you could stay after school from 2.30 to five

00:57:33.820 | every day to kind of like work to pay for your tuition.

00:57:36.340 | So I'd been working like throughout all of high school.

00:57:39.020 | I got another job at McDonald's when I was 18,

00:57:41.220 | worked at the casino.

00:57:42.060 | Like I'd always been doing that kind of work.

00:57:43.620 | I never really viewed it as like beneath me or anything.

00:57:45.580 | It's not like I don't have like a family of doctors

00:57:47.420 | or lawyers or anything.

00:57:48.460 | And then me and my other friend, Chris guy,

00:57:50.140 | we'd always make fun of everybody else

00:57:51.460 | for being kind of like, you know,

00:57:52.840 | like preppy kids and everything, so.

00:57:54.780 | - So there is a,

00:57:56.340 | there's some pride to that sort of hard work.

00:57:59.400 | - Yeah, I guess a little bit, yeah.

00:58:00.580 | 'Cause, you know, looking especially at my dad,

00:58:02.140 | like the solution to every problem

00:58:03.140 | was just throw more hours of work at it basically.

00:58:05.140 | So that was always my, yeah, go-to.

00:58:07.260 | And I never, yeah.

00:58:08.100 | - So what was psychologically the low point?

00:58:10.940 | - I think psychologically the low point was that

00:58:13.460 | as I'm doing this carpet cleaning job,

00:58:15.400 | driving around my city, there's like this feeling of,

00:58:20.120 | I guess for a lot of people it's probably college,

00:58:23.460 | but there's a feeling when you're in high school

00:58:25.820 | that everything is like so exciting

00:58:28.060 | and the whole world is kind of in front of you

00:58:30.460 | and there are a trillion, trillion

00:58:32.980 | different branching paths of possibilities.

00:58:35.320 | And, you know, even through high school,

00:58:36.660 | you're thinking like, am I gonna be a doctor or a lawyer

00:58:39.140 | or can I join the NBA or can I do this or that?

00:58:41.420 | There's all these things in front of you.

00:58:43.660 | And when I especially felt it

00:58:45.980 | when I was doing these carpet cleaning jobs

00:58:47.500 | and I think it was in the fall,

00:58:49.860 | I'd be outside some of these houses

00:58:51.160 | and I just kind of look around

00:58:52.340 | and I'd recognize a lot of these neighborhoods

00:58:53.780 | that I'd drive around with friends in

00:58:55.580 | or I'd, you know, be walking through.

00:58:56.860 | I did, I ran cross country.

00:58:57.940 | Some of them I'd be running through these neighborhoods

00:58:59.860 | and it was just kind of like this feeling of looking around

00:59:01.780 | and it was like, when I was here in the past,

00:59:04.620 | this was like kind of like a transitionary phase of my life

00:59:07.100 | where I'm doing this and it's so fun and exciting

00:59:09.380 | and then I'm gonna move on to something else

00:59:10.660 | and it's gonna be fun and exciting and awesome.

00:59:12.540 | And then like, you know, two years later,

00:59:14.980 | my whole life has collapsed.

00:59:16.940 | Like I'm in a house that I can't afford anymore.

00:59:18.840 | My ex that I hate is pregnant with my kid

00:59:22.100 | and I have no money.

00:59:24.220 | I've got no upward mobility.

00:59:25.700 | I failed college.

00:59:27.500 | My job is horrible.

00:59:28.900 | Like just every single, like this is like my,

00:59:31.900 | all of those, the way function had collapsed into one thing

00:59:35.060 | and that one thing was the worst thing

00:59:36.500 | that it could have possibly been at the time for me.

00:59:38.740 | Yeah, like everything was gone and horrible.

00:59:40.140 | So yeah, that was the feeling I had at the time.

00:59:41.820 | - Do you ever contemplate suicide?

00:59:43.740 | - I thought about thinking about it,

00:59:46.100 | but I've just never been that kind of person, so.

00:59:48.300 | - I mean, basically as a way to escape from the hardship.

00:59:50.900 | - Something that I'm so incredibly lucky,

00:59:53.340 | I don't know why or how,

00:59:54.580 | I'm just gonna chalk it up to biology.

00:59:56.140 | I've always had really high mental baseline.

00:59:59.460 | I've like depression and all of that.

01:00:01.300 | There've been a few short stints I've dealt with it past 30

01:00:03.620 | because I did a lot of drugs.

01:00:04.940 | But other than that, my mental baseline is just so high.

01:00:08.260 | And even in the carpet cleaning days,

01:00:10.380 | like if you, man, the videos might still be there.

01:00:12.820 | I think on my old YouTube channel,

01:00:14.700 | where I'll be like playing StarCraft

01:00:15.900 | when I first started getting into streaming

01:00:17.340 | and I'll be calling up customers like,

01:00:18.580 | this is Steve from Guaranteed Clean.

01:00:19.780 | We had to move your job back one hour.

01:00:21.380 | Is it okay if I show up instead of 2.30?

01:00:22.700 | And then I hang up, it's like, all right guys,

01:00:23.940 | we've got three more games and it's like, let's go.

01:00:25.540 | Like stuff like that.

01:00:26.380 | So my baseline has always been like really high

01:00:28.060 | for mental function.

01:00:28.900 | - So even in low point, you had strength.

01:00:31.260 | Is there anything you can give by way of advice

01:00:34.500 | from people that, for whom the wave function collapses,

01:00:37.900 | as it does for many of us?

01:00:39.820 | Like, holy fuck, the world is not full of opportunity

01:00:43.380 | and you're kind of a failure.

01:00:45.180 | And like, I've been there.

01:00:47.260 | - Yeah, I don't know.

01:00:48.100 | It's rough because like, I usually ask for compassion

01:00:51.580 | from people that have it better off.

01:00:53.660 | Because like, once you're down there,

01:00:55.180 | like the only reason, I say I got lucky,

01:00:57.260 | but it wasn't even really lucky.

01:00:59.980 | Or it was lucky, but it was more lucky.

01:01:01.340 | It wasn't just lucky that I got into streaming.

01:01:03.020 | It was lucky that I was into computers at an early age.

01:01:05.260 | It was lucky that I played video games at an early age.

01:01:07.100 | It was lucky that all the tech came up

01:01:08.540 | at exactly that right point in time.

01:01:10.420 | Like I was a pretty smart guy,

01:01:12.060 | but it was definitely preparation meets opportunity.

01:01:15.180 | And that opportunity was like

01:01:16.340 | at the exact precise moment of my life.

01:01:18.380 | If anything had gone differently,

01:01:19.620 | then I would just be cleaning carpets today, so.

01:01:22.140 | - So in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics,

01:01:25.060 | this is like one out of like.

01:01:27.420 | - There's many, many Stevens

01:01:29.660 | that are just still carpet cleaning

01:01:32.220 | and they're full of pain and resentment.

01:01:34.580 | - Yeah, the one piece of advice that I give,

01:01:37.140 | I hate that I have to push back against

01:01:38.420 | all these crypto bros and everybody online.

01:01:40.180 | For decently intelligent people that are successful,

01:01:42.460 | I've never heard anybody give a contradiction to this.

01:01:45.020 | Maybe you will, you can tell me if you disagree.

01:01:47.540 | I always look at kids in high school

01:01:49.780 | and I'm like, just try a little bit harder.

01:01:51.580 | Like 30 minutes a night, if you don't study,

01:01:53.340 | just do 30 minutes, just do a little bit more.

01:01:56.020 | It is, you're laying the foundation for the rest of your life

01:01:58.660 | and you can't appreciate it in high school and college.

01:02:01.140 | But oh my God, when you get out,

01:02:03.220 | everything in your life is so much easier.

01:02:05.080 | You have probably more responsibility

01:02:07.300 | over the direction of your life

01:02:08.460 | when you're like 13, 14 years old

01:02:10.580 | than you ever will once you're like 25 and older.

01:02:12.860 | Because this is like when you're determining

01:02:14.700 | the foundations that everything's gonna be built on.

01:02:16.180 | - Yeah, 100%.

01:02:17.700 | So first of all, it does seem that

01:02:21.380 | the liberating aspect of being young

01:02:23.740 | is like anything you learn.

01:02:26.940 | So working hard at learning something will pay off

01:02:30.620 | in nonlinear ways, like you said with video games.

01:02:33.140 | I feel like, so people who are like, I hate school.

01:02:36.140 | All right, well, fine, but find something

01:02:39.640 | where you're challenging yourself,

01:02:41.020 | you're growing, you're learning, you're learning a skill,

01:02:43.380 | you're learning about a thing.

01:02:44.880 | Of course, you could push back and say,

01:02:47.860 | well, there's some trajectories that might not be productive

01:02:50.260 | if you spend the entirety of your teen years

01:02:52.940 | playing, I don't know, League of Legends,

01:02:54.780 | your game you have a love and hate relationship with.

01:02:57.980 | - No, just a hate and hate relationship.

01:02:59.100 | - Okay, well, we'll talk about,

01:03:01.020 | I think you have a love-hate relationship

01:03:02.980 | with hate in general.

01:03:03.900 | We'll just talk about it in love.

01:03:06.420 | We'll try to de-complexify that one.

01:03:08.580 | I think in general, just investing yourself

01:03:12.180 | fully with passion really does pay off.

01:03:15.380 | But that said, also school,

01:03:18.380 | I feel like doesn't get enough credit,

01:03:21.740 | like high school in particular,

01:03:23.260 | middle school and high school,

01:03:24.740 | because it's general education.

01:03:26.840 | I think if you're, especially if you're lucky

01:03:31.980 | to have good teachers, but honestly, I haven't mostly.

01:03:35.740 | The textbooks themselves with good teachers,

01:03:38.180 | it's a one chance in life you have to

01:03:40.740 | really explore a subject.

01:03:43.480 | Fuck grades, like getting good grades

01:03:46.860 | is at tension, I would say, with actual learning.

01:03:49.500 | That is true.

01:03:50.520 | But just get a biology textbook

01:03:53.320 | and to explore ideas in biology

01:03:55.340 | and allowing yourself to be inspired

01:03:59.420 | by the beauty of it.

01:04:00.940 | Yeah, I don't know, I think that really, really,

01:04:04.700 | really pays off and you never get a chance

01:04:06.460 | to do that again.

01:04:07.300 | And maybe not even textbooks, like reading,

01:04:10.840 | straight up reading.

01:04:12.020 | I think if you read, this is a one time in life

01:04:14.900 | you get a chance to read.

01:04:16.700 | Really read, like read a book a day, read.

01:04:20.020 | You can really invest, you can really grow by reading.

01:04:24.740 | I mean, Elon Musk, all those guys talk about it.

01:04:27.500 | - It's very, very rare that you meet

01:04:28.820 | like a dumb person who reads a lot.

01:04:30.540 | I don't know if that's ever happened in my life.

01:04:32.620 | Yeah.

01:04:33.460 | - Dumb or not successful.

01:04:34.300 | And the cool thing is, it seems like the reading,

01:04:38.020 | it's like investment, the reading you do early on

01:04:40.880 | in high school pays off way more

01:04:42.900 | than the reading you do later.

01:04:45.100 | So like the really influential reading

01:04:48.700 | is during those high school years.

01:04:52.340 | Because you're basically learning from others

01:04:55.100 | the mistakes they've made, the solutions to problems.

01:04:59.020 | You're basically learning the shortcuts to life.

01:05:02.100 | Like whatever the hell you wanna do,

01:05:03.180 | music, read from the best people,

01:05:05.500 | the music theory, like learn music theory.

01:05:08.500 | Learn, read biographies about jazz musicians,

01:05:11.860 | blues musicians, see all the mistakes,

01:05:14.700 | see what they did, see the shortcuts.

01:05:16.380 | If you wanna do podcasting, read about other podcasts.

01:05:18.380 | If you wanna do streaming, read about other streamers,

01:05:21.140 | physicists and so on.

01:05:22.580 | And I feel like you figure out all the mistakes

01:05:24.740 | and you get to shortcut through life.

01:05:26.620 | Because most people show up to college

01:05:28.380 | without having done that.

01:05:29.820 | And now you get a chance to shortcut your way past them.

01:05:33.180 | Yeah, 100%.

01:05:35.340 | But nobody really teaches you that.

01:05:37.240 | They're like, go to school, from this time to that time.

01:05:42.500 | Shut up, this is just what you do, eat your broccoli.

01:05:46.020 | - I think there's two huge problems.

01:05:47.340 | One is now that I'm older,

01:05:50.100 | 'cause you don't know anything as a kid.

01:05:51.700 | You can't really criticize adults as a kid.

01:05:53.260 | 'Cause you're a kid.

01:05:54.100 | - You're ageist, if I may say so.

01:05:55.740 | - I am, I am super ageist.

01:05:56.580 | And as I get older, I get even more ageist.

01:05:59.940 | There are a lot of people where I argue with them,

01:06:00.780 | I was like, man, dude, you're really 22, aren't you?

01:06:02.980 | I can tell every word you say.

01:06:05.060 | There's seeps of like 22 year old-ness.

01:06:07.220 | But that's okay, I love that for you.

01:06:08.940 | - I could just say, 'cause you mentioned this,

01:06:11.580 | your wife is a fellow streamer, Melina.

01:06:14.020 | You mentioned that this is a source of fights

01:06:16.500 | for the two of you that, and I could just feel that.

01:06:19.940 | There is truth to what you're saying, which is like,

01:06:22.700 | all right, you're saying that because you're 22.

01:06:25.220 | Just wait until you're 25,

01:06:26.860 | and you won't be saying that anymore.

01:06:28.560 | Now, that is the most annoying thing for people to hear.

01:06:31.460 | - Yeah, you can't ever say that, of course.

01:06:32.620 | - Because it's actually usually true.

01:06:35.100 | Because we do go through phases in life.

01:06:39.740 | And you can understand that most things are phases.

01:06:42.260 | So just in general, you can say, just wait, just wait.

01:06:46.500 | You won't feel this way again.

01:06:49.140 | I could say that to you, you could say that to yourself.

01:06:51.460 | Just wait, whatever you're feeling like, just wait.

01:06:53.980 | In five, 10 years, you'll be a different person,

01:06:56.140 | and you will laugh at the things you take seriously now

01:06:59.460 | that are causing you pain now, all that kind of stuff.

01:07:02.080 | But people hate hearing that.

01:07:03.860 | Anyway. - Absolutely.

01:07:05.340 | I think the joke that I always say is that like,

01:07:06.700 | if I could literally step into a time machine,

01:07:09.060 | and I could come back out and see myself as a 17-year-old,

01:07:12.060 | and I could say, "Hey, I am literally you from the future.

01:07:14.500 | "You see the time machine."

01:07:15.740 | And I would look at me, and I would see the time machine.

01:07:17.740 | And I would give myself the best advice in the world,

01:07:20.460 | to be the most successful person.

01:07:21.860 | I would ignore all of it, even knowing it came from myself.

01:07:24.260 | I'd be like, "This guy sold out.

01:07:25.280 | "This dude doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

01:07:26.620 | "Like, nah, I'll figure it out better.

01:07:27.780 | "Like, he must've made some mis..."

01:07:28.800 | That's what I would think as a 17-year-old.

01:07:29.640 | Even if I knew it was myself from the future,

01:07:30.980 | I would just 100% never believe it.

01:07:33.180 | And knowing that is very frustrating.

01:07:34.460 | But I keep that in mind when I deal with younger people.

01:07:36.020 | That's why I never, I always say on stream

01:07:37.740 | when I'm talking to, there's been stuff with Sneako.

01:07:40.500 | There's another girl on my stream called Lab.

01:07:41.860 | Like, when I see the way, I see the mistakes they're making.

01:07:44.260 | Oftentimes, because I've made all of these mistakes,

01:07:46.460 | sometimes in the most public and horrible fashion ever.

01:07:49.480 | But I'm never like a mentor.

01:07:50.500 | I'm not gonna sit there and tell you,

01:07:51.660 | oh, do this or that or that or that.

01:07:52.780 | 'Cause I don't know if you're gonna listen to me,

01:07:54.460 | and I don't wanna condescend to you.

01:07:55.780 | And you figure stuff out,

01:07:56.860 | and I'll be here if you wanna talk about it.

01:07:57.860 | But yeah.

01:07:58.940 | There was one of the stories,

01:08:00.380 | there was a company that didn't work with me,

01:08:02.580 | because I was very adamant on defending

01:08:05.380 | very radical notions about language

01:08:07.300 | and racial slurs and everything

01:08:08.220 | when I was like 22 or whatever.

01:08:09.940 | And there was a company, and they said,

01:08:10.940 | well, we don't wanna work with this guy for an event.

01:08:12.720 | And after they'd said that,

01:08:14.140 | I had written an article on my website

01:08:15.820 | called, the company was Gigabyte, they make motherboards.

01:08:18.000 | I said, fuck Gigabyte in the ass.

01:08:19.320 | That was the title to my article.

01:08:20.940 | And it was like, well, if they don't wanna work with me,

01:08:22.280 | I'm gonna blow them up

01:08:23.120 | and never do anything ever with them again.

01:08:25.180 | And it was just like, looking back on it now,

01:08:27.260 | obviously, as an older person, I'm like,

01:08:28.780 | hey, you need to pump the brakes and chill.

01:08:30.620 | You're destroying yourself.

01:08:32.000 | But yeah, as a young person, it's like,

01:08:33.500 | yeah, you're 22, of course you think

01:08:34.900 | that you can say whatever and do whatever.

01:08:36.420 | And as long as you're good at what you're doing,

01:08:37.620 | you've got the whole world behind you.

01:08:38.660 | And yeah, geez.

01:08:40.380 | - Well, let's go there.

01:08:41.280 | You have a history of using offensive language,

01:08:43.980 | like the R word, the N word,

01:08:47.180 | including the N word with a hard R,

01:08:49.580 | calling women bitches,

01:08:53.100 | talking about rape in a nonchalant way.

01:08:56.640 | What part of that do you regret?

01:09:01.460 | And what part of that do you not?

01:09:03.260 | - Language is very complicated.

01:09:04.860 | When it comes to stuff relating to slurs,

01:09:08.300 | there's been like a whole trajectory of feelings

01:09:11.980 | on everything related to language.

01:09:14.540 | So my--

01:09:15.380 | - For you personally and for the internet as a whole.

01:09:17.100 | - Yeah, I don't care about the internet,

01:09:18.100 | almost for me personally.

01:09:19.500 | In my early 20s, I'll say like 22, 23,

01:09:22.900 | I think probably when I first started streaming,

01:09:24.660 | my feeling is that any word is just a word.

01:09:27.860 | And if it hurts you, that's your fault.

01:09:29.420 | Take responsibility for yourself.

01:09:31.580 | This probably came from my background

01:09:32.780 | of being like a really independent person.

01:09:34.140 | So that's just kind of like the mind

01:09:35.220 | that I had for everything.

01:09:36.780 | And there were basically,

01:09:38.620 | there were like a collection of experiences that I had,

01:09:41.000 | that as I grew, I started to realize like, okay,

01:09:43.820 | well, I feel differently about some of these words,

01:09:45.940 | depending on the context,

01:09:46.980 | and I can see how they can affect other people,

01:09:48.540 | depending on the context.

01:09:49.900 | So as I've kind of like grown,

01:09:51.740 | I think I've developed a more sophisticated understanding

01:09:54.020 | of how different words are used

01:09:55.900 | and how they affect people,

01:09:56.940 | whether they like it or not.

01:09:58.000 | And more importantly, whether I like it or not.

01:09:59.780 | And that words can, even if I don't want it to be,

01:10:02.780 | they can be a vehicle for emboldening certain types of ideas

01:10:05.900 | that I don't wanna embolden.

01:10:07.420 | And yeah, that's kind of been the whole like growth.

01:10:09.780 | I've been lucky that in the time

01:10:11.140 | that I came up on the internet,

01:10:12.260 | I was able to learn these lessons,

01:10:13.840 | because if I was trying to learn those same lessons today,

01:10:15.460 | I would have been completely destroyed

01:10:17.200 | 'cause I had insane views on language like 10 years ago.

01:10:20.120 | - We could talk about the past,

01:10:21.140 | we could talk about the present.

01:10:22.180 | Let's talk about the past first.

01:10:23.220 | So how do you deal with the fact

01:10:25.020 | that there's videos of you in the past saying the N word,

01:10:30.020 | including the N word with a hard R?

01:10:32.120 | - So generally-

01:10:32.960 | - And what's the context?

01:10:34.080 | Can you give me like,

01:10:35.000 | give me a memory, what would be the context usually?

01:10:37.560 | - When I lay out this defense,

01:10:39.560 | it's not because I wouldn't have used the N word.

01:10:42.080 | Generally, whenever I said the N word,

01:10:43.360 | it was usually in an example of like,

01:10:44.800 | this is something that like a racist person would say.

01:10:47.160 | I don't think I've ever on the internet,

01:10:49.200 | I don't think I've ever called anybody

01:10:50.440 | like the N word with a hard R.

01:10:52.360 | Not because I wouldn't have,

01:10:53.360 | but just because it wasn't in my vocabulary.

01:10:55.180 | I played RTS, real-time strategy,

01:10:57.900 | and we used the F slur for gay people.

01:11:00.500 | That's the one, and I use that one a ton.

01:11:01.980 | I've called people that a ton in the past.

01:11:04.420 | - So I should actually just as a small tangent.

01:11:06.780 | - Yeah, go for it.

01:11:07.660 | - And this is what I'd like to explore with you.

01:11:10.360 | There's a ruthlessness to the language in the gaming world.

01:11:16.460 | - Yeah.

01:11:17.340 | - And there's different communities,

01:11:18.740 | they have different flavors of language.

01:11:22.300 | - Of hate speech, yeah.

01:11:23.180 | - Of hate speech, essentially.

01:11:25.140 | And there's also a humor to it,

01:11:27.880 | which really bothers me in a dark way

01:11:34.200 | that I haven't been able to really think through,

01:11:37.280 | because humor seems to be a kind of catalyst for hate.

01:11:41.520 | It seems to normalize hate.

01:11:44.120 | Like you say, basically it's like Louis C.K.

01:11:48.080 | says a lot of edgy things,

01:11:50.120 | but you take something Louis C.K. says

01:11:52.500 | and do it in a non-funny way,

01:11:53.920 | and do it over and over and over,

01:11:55.120 | and keep increasing the hatefulness of it, the vitriol.

01:12:00.120 | And somehow you find yourself like Alice in Wonderland

01:12:04.360 | in a world full of hate, where there's no good and evil,

01:12:07.600 | it's all the same.

01:12:08.600 | In fact, the good is to be mocked,

01:12:11.480 | and the evil is to be celebrated for the humor of it.

01:12:14.800 | Basically not taking the ideas of evil seriously.

01:12:18.560 | And I don't know what it,

01:12:19.720 | it reveals something about human nature

01:12:21.440 | that you can let go.

01:12:22.860 | The moral relativism that can happen

01:12:25.820 | when you do that kind of stuff.

01:12:27.020 | At the same time, I'm a fan of dark humor, when done well.

01:12:32.020 | Anyway, for people who are not familiar,

01:12:34.380 | I just wanted to mention that some of the worst hate speech

01:12:39.380 | that ends in LOL happens in gaming communities.

01:12:44.120 | - Yeah.

01:12:45.080 | - And that's where you come from in a certain part.

01:12:47.320 | - So a lot of people don't remember this,

01:12:48.980 | or don't know this 'cause they're younger,

01:12:50.120 | but way back in the day, in the late 90s,

01:12:54.040 | early mid 2000s of the internet,

01:12:55.840 | the way that online kind of like shit talk worked

01:12:58.440 | was you were just trying to ramp up

01:13:00.320 | to the most insanely edgy, crazy stuff you could say

01:13:04.300 | to like provoke a reaction.

01:13:06.520 | Have you ever heard of something called the aristocrats?

01:13:09.280 | That it's like a joke, the joke?

01:13:11.080 | - Oh yeah, the joke, yeah, there's a movie on it, yeah.

01:13:13.240 | - Okay, basically every single like shit talk

01:13:16.040 | back in the internet was like that.

01:13:17.420 | Like what is the most increasingly depraved,

01:13:19.720 | and back then you didn't get banned for slurs or anything

01:13:22.440 | on any of these chat rooms,

01:13:23.400 | so it was just like insane world to walk into.

01:13:25.880 | And I was fully 100% a part of, a product of,

01:13:29.640 | and a contributor to that world.

01:13:31.320 | - So that probably still goes on on the internet in some way

01:13:34.040 | and that probably still goes on in the internet

01:13:36.200 | in a maybe more pacified way.

01:13:39.280 | - Only in darker parts of the internet.

01:13:40.840 | I'd say for the most part, most,

01:13:42.400 | well compared to back then, compared to 20 years ago,

01:13:44.600 | the internet is way cleaned up now.

01:13:46.160 | There are still gonna be boards you can go on

01:13:47.760 | or parts of the internet where you see that type of humor,

01:13:49.840 | but not, nowhere near as mainstream.

01:13:51.680 | Like back then you could open your mic on Xbox Live

01:13:54.400 | and hear some insane stuff when that first started,

01:13:56.720 | nowhere near what you hear today, although it's, yeah.

01:13:58.720 | - There's still elements of escalation that happen

01:14:01.280 | that just seems to be part of human nature on the internet.

01:14:04.860 | Because we don't get the feedback

01:14:06.040 | of actually hurting people directly.

01:14:08.240 | So the trolling, like for the lulz,

01:14:11.760 | you'll do like whatever, like you will still escalate.

01:14:15.280 | Within the bounds, you're just saying

01:14:17.080 | that there's more bounds now.

01:14:18.200 | On Reddit, there's more bounds and so on.

01:14:20.400 | So there's moderators that kind of yell at you,

01:14:23.800 | that ban you and so on if you cross those bounds.

01:14:26.520 | But overall, that basic human instinct to escalate,

01:14:29.900 | especially under the veil of anonymity is still there.

01:14:34.080 | I don't know, it's dark, it's dark.

01:14:35.480 | - Yeah, just there's a lot of different ways to look at it

01:14:37.560 | and there's different ways you can break that arc.

01:14:39.000 | Like for instance, like you mentioned dark humor

01:14:41.000 | and you say that like, sometimes dark humor is funny

01:14:44.920 | and sometimes it's not.

01:14:46.320 | I think that it's really important to dig into

01:14:48.080 | and figure out like why certain things are funny

01:14:50.320 | and why certain things-- - Can I give you an example?

01:14:51.320 | - Yeah, go. - It's from your subreddit.

01:14:52.860 | - Oh boy. (laughs)

01:14:53.920 | - No, that made me laugh and I felt wrong about it.

01:14:56.080 | - (laughs) Oh no.

01:14:58.280 | - So this is-- (laughs)

01:15:00.360 | - I already know what this is, yeah.

01:15:02.400 | - Yeah, so this is a trolley problem.

01:15:04.680 | To me, it connects because I think about the,

01:15:07.800 | it keeps, 'cause I worked on autonomous vehicles,

01:15:10.040 | the trolley problem, the philosophical thought experiment

01:15:12.840 | keeps brought up a lot.

01:15:14.360 | You know, when AI is part of making the decision,

01:15:16.800 | do I kill three people here or five people here

01:15:19.960 | and AI makes that decision, how do you do that calculus?

01:15:22.760 | And this particular, there's a deep,

01:15:27.320 | so it's satire that reveals some kind of flaw in society.

01:15:31.180 | I feel like that's why-- - That's what dark humor does?

01:15:33.600 | - Successful dark humor does.

01:15:35.200 | And I don't know if this-- - And it reveals a flaw.

01:15:36.960 | I feel like there's a certain brand of dark humor

01:15:39.840 | and I think the reason, I think the reason is why it's good

01:15:43.760 | or why it is good humor, I think it's because it,

01:15:46.000 | I don't think it necessarily reveals a flaw.

01:15:47.240 | Sometimes I feel like it reveals a kind of virtue, I think.

01:15:49.800 | Like, if you look at this particular thing--

01:15:52.520 | - Can I explain what we're-- - Yeah, go for it.

01:15:53.840 | Oh yeah, sure. - We're just listening.

01:15:55.880 | The title of the Reddit post is "You Know What to Pick"

01:15:59.440 | and it says, "Five people are going to die either way,

01:16:03.360 | "but if you flip the lever,

01:16:05.200 | "the trolley will do a sick fucking loop first."

01:16:08.940 | And also the top comment is a question saying,

01:16:13.940 | which I think is also part of the dark humor

01:16:16.500 | that's successful, "Can I get the gender

01:16:18.740 | "and ethnic backgrounds of the groups first?"

01:16:21.560 | And the top answer is, "Both groups are each comprised

01:16:24.700 | "of five white, orphaned, cis male, heavy meth users

01:16:29.700 | "who are consistently in and out of drug rehab,

01:16:34.360 | "all who identify as right-wing extremists."

01:16:37.060 | Humor is such a sophisticated thing that we engage in.

01:16:40.100 | Humor is really complicated.

01:16:42.380 | But I would argue that hopefully the humor here

01:16:45.080 | shows the virtue of this is obviously horrible,

01:16:48.660 | but that's kind of why it's funny.

01:16:50.020 | It's funny because it's such a horrible question to ask.

01:16:52.580 | Do we kill five people in a boring way

01:16:54.180 | or in a really entertaining way?

01:16:55.340 | And it's like, that's really, that's really,

01:16:57.180 | and then when you ask even more,

01:16:58.340 | what are the ethnic backgrounds?

01:16:59.500 | That's even worse to say that.

01:17:01.540 | So I feel like that's the type of,

01:17:03.260 | there's a way that you can engage with dark humor

01:17:04.900 | where it's like, oof.

01:17:06.380 | It's funny because it's so wrong and so taboo.

01:17:08.820 | And we all know that it's wrong and taboo,

01:17:10.220 | and that's kind of where the shared laugh comes from.

01:17:11.940 | - So for me, the question, asking the diversity question

01:17:16.580 | is a sophisticated way of revealing the absurdity

01:17:19.340 | of asking about diversity when it's talking about human life.

01:17:22.500 | - Oh, interesting, 'cause the way that I took that was,

01:17:25.120 | I think it reveals the absurdity

01:17:27.400 | of how people will weigh different ethnic backgrounds

01:17:29.540 | so differently when it comes to value of human life.

01:17:31.900 | Like, I'm actually thinking of that in terms of like

01:17:33.700 | an immigration-related question,

01:17:35.740 | where people are really keen and quick to dehumanize

01:17:38.300 | like black or brown people.

01:17:39.980 | So like the question is like,

01:17:40.820 | well, if five of them are brown and five are white,

01:17:42.460 | well, I know which one I'm gonna pull the lever for.

01:17:44.740 | That's how I read that.

01:17:45.580 | - But it's satirizing that aspect.

01:17:46.740 | - Yeah, exactly, yes, of course, yeah.

01:17:47.580 | - But that's what I mean, that that's the flaw.

01:17:50.060 | To me, at least, it showed that humanity

01:17:55.060 | or social networks that are easy to be outraged

01:17:59.100 | and love the outrage and the chaos,

01:18:02.820 | that Twitter and social networks will pull that lever.

01:18:06.200 | Like they would always try to maximize the fun.

01:18:10.420 | And there's a sick aspect to all the atrocities,

01:18:14.620 | all the tragedies that happen in the world

01:18:16.780 | that we kind of always lean towards

01:18:18.780 | the outrageous narrative weaved around it.

01:18:23.220 | Yeah, the one that leads to sort of the most clicks,

01:18:28.380 | to the most attention, to the most outrage,

01:18:32.140 | to all that kind of stuff.

01:18:33.700 | So that's almost like a satire of society.

01:18:37.740 | When they are faced with tragedy, they will maximize.

01:18:42.580 | I'm trying to think of a word that's not fun, but--

01:18:46.160 | - Entertainment.

01:18:47.060 | - Maximize the entertainment, yeah.

01:18:49.100 | - This is a big criticism I give,

01:18:50.420 | especially to conservative crowds.

01:18:52.420 | Left-leaning people, everybody does it.

01:18:54.660 | I don't like when people blame the media

01:18:56.380 | for the state of the media today.

01:18:58.020 | I very much believe that everything in society

01:19:00.300 | is a feedback loop, and that if you're really unhappy

01:19:02.740 | with the state of the media,

01:19:03.600 | I think that the media is a good reflection

01:19:05.060 | for what people wanna see.

01:19:06.220 | Because there is a room right now in the United States

01:19:08.380 | where somebody could start a company

01:19:09.500 | where all they do is completely factual reporting,

01:19:12.460 | they don't have a political slant,

01:19:13.740 | and they're not giving you these sensationalist narratives

01:19:15.700 | or stories, and that media company would fail in two weeks,

01:19:18.100 | because people don't wanna see that.

01:19:19.140 | Generally, people really wanna see the,

01:19:20.860 | show me the guy that really believes in what I say,

01:19:22.860 | that calls the other guy an idiot,

01:19:24.020 | the guy that are screaming on TV or on the radio,

01:19:25.820 | like this is what I really want.

01:19:27.660 | And people will engage in that,

01:19:29.060 | and that feedback loop will continue for generations,

01:19:32.140 | and then all of a sudden people are like,

01:19:33.140 | why is the media so biased?

01:19:34.580 | Why is the media driving so many narratives?

01:19:36.380 | And it's like, well, what do you mean?

01:19:37.200 | This is exactly what you wanna see.

01:19:39.060 | And that's frustrating for me.

01:19:40.780 | That's one of my big kind of when I defend establishments,

01:19:43.080 | or when I talk about the interplay between citizen

01:19:45.820 | and all these institutions we have,

01:19:48.660 | that the institutions are very much a reflection

01:19:51.180 | of the population, at least in democratic societies.

01:19:54.340 | And I think that people very much try to elude

01:19:56.300 | the personal responsibility

01:19:57.780 | or the country's responsibility

01:19:59.700 | to why some of them look the way that they do.

01:20:02.000 | - But that takes us back to the N word with a hard R.

01:20:05.900 | - Sure. - Why?

01:20:07.700 | - For the particular examples that I was given,

01:20:09.660 | or for the particular conversations that I was having,

01:20:11.900 | if you're gonna have challenging conversations

01:20:13.740 | around certain words,

01:20:14.900 | I think you should probably be able to say them,

01:20:16.540 | otherwise it feels really ridiculous to me.

01:20:18.580 | That's like my-- - Do you still believe that?

01:20:20.780 | - For, yes.

01:20:22.020 | And not like calling people those words,

01:20:23.800 | but in having conversations about those words,

01:20:25.620 | I would say that I still believe that, yeah.

01:20:27.100 | - But don't you think, as you said,

01:20:29.060 | that using those words

01:20:30.620 | actually gives motivation and strength

01:20:35.460 | to people who have hate in their hearts?

01:20:38.100 | - I think depending on the context of what's going on,

01:20:41.820 | I think that that's gonna be a big driver

01:20:43.420 | in terms of how people are going to perceive or take it.

01:20:46.300 | So in a conversation about the N word,

01:20:48.500 | I don't think I would normally say the N word,

01:20:49.900 | we would just talk about the word,

01:20:51.660 | much the same way that, say, like in a movie,

01:20:53.900 | like in "Django," people use the N word.

01:20:55.860 | Should that be censored in that movie?

01:20:57.460 | Or in the context of that movie,

01:20:58.860 | is it being employed in a way where these aren't good people,

01:21:01.100 | you're not supposed to like them,

01:21:02.020 | and that's what the audience walks away with.

01:21:04.340 | - Yeah, but that context is different in the conversation.

01:21:06.380 | It feels like in conversation,

01:21:08.720 | you using that word normalizes it.

01:21:11.900 | And normalizing that word is going to make it easier

01:21:15.340 | for people who use that word in a hateful way to use it.

01:21:19.380 | Same with the F word, the F slur.

01:21:23.460 | If you use that casually and normalize it

01:21:27.640 | in a way that's not hateful,

01:21:30.700 | you use it in a way that's not hateful,

01:21:32.780 | but the side effect is that it normalizes it,

01:21:35.580 | then people who do use it in a hateful way

01:21:38.460 | will be more likely to use it.

01:21:40.260 | Therefore, mathematically looking at the equation

01:21:43.660 | of the number of times the N word or the F word

01:21:46.900 | is used throughout the world,

01:21:48.580 | it increases the number of times it's used in a hateful way.

01:21:51.340 | - Yeah, I think that human beings--

01:21:52.180 | - And you're part of that problem, Steven.

01:21:54.460 | - I don't agree.

01:21:55.340 | I understand the thought process,

01:21:57.980 | but I don't know if using certain words

01:22:00.760 | within different contexts is going to necessarily normalize

01:22:04.780 | the hateful use of that word.

01:22:06.220 | That is an argument that I've heard people use.

01:22:09.700 | Somebody will say, "Okay, well, hold on.

01:22:11.060 | "That should never be used ever,"

01:22:12.500 | because by virtue of you normalizing it,

01:22:14.800 | even in an inoffensive environment,

01:22:16.740 | you increase the proclivity for people to use it

01:22:18.700 | in a potentially more offensive environment.

01:22:20.620 | And my argument is always that,

01:22:21.900 | "No, I don't think that crossover exists."

01:22:23.500 | But if you did wanna take that argument,

01:22:25.100 | and maybe you do feel this way,

01:22:26.460 | I think that you get really problematic

01:22:27.820 | when you run into communities that do use certain words

01:22:30.040 | that people would say, "Well, they should be allowed

01:22:31.100 | "to do it."

01:22:31.940 | So, for instance, if you think that any utterance

01:22:33.500 | of the N word at all is highly problematic

01:22:35.260 | and might increase hatred,

01:22:36.540 | then the entire rap industry has to dramatically change

01:22:38.820 | the way that they engage with the N word.

01:22:40.340 | And obviously, a lot of people that criticize

01:22:42.120 | people's use of the N word are gonna turn to rappers

01:22:44.260 | and say, "Well, you guys can't say it either."

01:22:45.900 | - No, it's who uses the N word.

01:22:48.780 | So, it's not just the word.

01:22:50.980 | It's the, it is context dependent.

01:22:55.760 | But I would say that you, as a white person,

01:23:00.380 | having conversations, the context there is the kind

01:23:05.380 | that would lead to an increase in hate.

01:23:07.300 | - Do you think the N word should be censored

01:23:08.460 | in the dictionary?

01:23:09.460 | - No.

01:23:10.300 | And I believe there's a Wikipedia page on it,

01:23:12.540 | and it's not censored.

01:23:13.700 | Yeah, I think it should be in the dictionary.

01:23:16.300 | I think the context of casual conversation,

01:23:20.120 | like I said, I just believe that on the internet,

01:23:23.060 | having humor, having fun conversations as you have

01:23:28.300 | on your streams, that leads to the normalization

01:23:32.660 | of the word without any educational value.

01:23:35.180 | Without significant educational value.

01:23:36.020 | - Yeah, I would agree with that.

01:23:37.060 | I think I would agree with that.

01:23:37.900 | - No, sorry, so there's a difference between F slur

01:23:41.140 | and N word, and both, I think, should not be used

01:23:45.060 | in a fun way, but the F word was used in a fun way

01:23:48.300 | for the longest time.

01:23:49.180 | - For sure.

01:23:50.020 | - And I'll tell you something that bothers me

01:23:52.360 | about your streams, not your streams,

01:23:55.440 | your streams and basically every other stream,

01:23:58.440 | is the casual use of the R word.

01:24:00.920 | - Oh, the ableism, yeah.

01:24:02.580 | - I don't know if it's about the able,

01:24:04.160 | I don't even know, listen, it's complicated.

01:24:07.280 | I'm not like virtue signaling here.

01:24:08.840 | - No, ableism isn't virtue signaling.

01:24:10.520 | I mean, it's a legitimate, yeah.

01:24:12.320 | Like I get emails from fans that say like,

01:24:13.920 | "Hey, I deal with this particular issue.

01:24:16.660 | "Every time you use this word,

01:24:17.880 | "it kind of feels like you're attacking me."

01:24:19.160 | Like just like, so it's a valid concept, yeah.

01:24:21.980 | - It's just something cuts wrong for me.

01:24:24.180 | Like for example, I'm not bothered by,

01:24:26.660 | I am bothered by the excessive use of the word fuck.

01:24:29.540 | - Okay.

01:24:30.380 | - But not--

01:24:31.660 | - In the same way that--

01:24:32.500 | - Moderate use of the word fuck.

01:24:35.300 | - What is it I'm curious in?

01:24:36.180 | When somebody calls somebody an R word,

01:24:38.420 | what is it that, what is the feeling that you get

01:24:40.180 | that makes you feel bad about it?

01:24:42.440 | - It signals to me that you don't give a damn about,

01:24:47.440 | (sighs)

01:24:49.440 | people who are struggling in ways

01:24:54.480 | that you are not struggling.

01:24:56.080 | Like that signals to me, like about the experience of others.

01:25:01.080 | - Do you think that there are other words also

01:25:04.040 | that could convey like a similar feeling to you?

01:25:06.480 | 'Cause it feels like you've drawn

01:25:07.320 | a pretty special circle around,

01:25:09.360 | 'cause like I imagine, I go, "Oh, this guy's,

01:25:11.000 | "you're an uneducated dumb fuck," or, "You're a nitwicker."

01:25:13.640 | Like, do those words--

01:25:15.440 | - Well, that circle keeps changing.

01:25:17.920 | - Which it can, which is fine, it does.

01:25:18.760 | - And I think that's what the whole point with the culture.

01:25:21.320 | So I'm trying to feel, my feeling is a kind of,

01:25:25.280 | I'm a human being that exists in a social context

01:25:27.560 | that we're all evolving that language together

01:25:30.320 | and just feels wrong.

01:25:31.160 | Like, the word bitch, for example, it really,

01:25:34.840 | like I've heard on your streams and in general,

01:25:37.560 | calling a woman a stupid bitch really bothers me.

01:25:42.560 | But it's not just the word bitch, it's context.

01:25:45.240 | Like, for example, me personally,

01:25:47.440 | I'm speaking to me personally,

01:25:48.800 | like badass bitch is different than stupid bitch.

01:25:53.480 | - Sure, like a bad bitch or something is different than,

01:25:55.280 | yeah, of course. - Way different.

01:25:56.960 | I think it speaks to a bigger sense of civility

01:26:00.840 | and respect for human beings that are not like you.

01:26:04.680 | That's the feeling that I'm bothered.

01:26:07.720 | So I guess what I'm trying to say here is

01:26:12.520 | just because people speak in this kind of way

01:26:16.800 | in the gaming world and in streams

01:26:19.680 | doesn't mean that you, like a lot of people look up to you.

01:26:23.720 | It doesn't mean, young people especially,

01:26:26.920 | doesn't mean that you don't have the responsibility

01:26:28.860 | to sort of stand alone from the crowd.

01:26:31.080 | 'Cause you're somebody that values

01:26:32.640 | the power of effective discourse.

01:26:35.180 | And to be effective discourse,

01:26:40.240 | there's some level of civility.

01:26:41.840 | So you can be the sort of the beacon of civility

01:26:44.520 | in that world versus giving in to the derogatory words.

01:26:49.520 | 'Cause you have to lift people out of that world,

01:26:55.120 | out of the muck of, what I would say is like drama

01:27:00.120 | in effective discourse.

01:27:02.320 | I think that's one of your missions, right?

01:27:04.180 | Is like to inspire the world through conversation,

01:27:07.480 | through debate, through effective discourse.

01:27:09.960 | So I guess I'm just calling you out

01:27:11.640 | that I think using our word, for me personally,

01:27:14.600 | as a fan that believes in your mission,

01:27:18.600 | it just makes you look ineffective and bad

01:27:22.080 | and uninspiring to young people that look up to you.

01:27:24.960 | 'Cause those young people are going to use those words

01:27:27.440 | that you're using and they'll do it much less effectively.

01:27:30.760 | - Sure. - That's the problem.

01:27:32.280 | - Yeah, I guess the challenge is always

01:27:33.320 | just like finding the line.

01:27:34.720 | Like my vocabulary shifted dramatically from,

01:27:38.160 | even from like two or three years ago,

01:27:39.720 | I think my vocabulary shifted quite a bit

01:27:41.760 | as we've like, we've kind of gotten rid of some words

01:27:43.760 | and some things are kind of coming out.

01:27:46.280 | The R word is one that has kind of gone out and come back

01:27:48.400 | and gone out and come back.

01:27:49.760 | That one we've definitely gone back and forth on.

01:27:51.440 | I know there are different thoughts about it

01:27:52.640 | in different communities on the internet.

01:27:54.200 | - This is interesting.

01:27:55.040 | I mean, I'm just telling you, for me, it cuts,

01:27:59.440 | and I'm not a social justice warrior type,

01:28:01.920 | it cuts pretty hard.

01:28:03.760 | - What you're saying is I'm gonna lose a subscriber

01:28:05.440 | if I'm-- - No, it's not a subscriber.

01:28:08.120 | I know what you mean. - I actually have

01:28:09.880 | to empathize harder because I'm like,

01:28:12.280 | maybe this is not a very good person.

01:28:14.100 | That's what I feel.

01:28:15.280 | Like if you're so carelessly using that word,

01:28:18.240 | then maybe you're not actually thinking deeply

01:28:20.080 | about the suffering in the world.

01:28:22.600 | Like to be a student of human nature,

01:28:24.740 | you really have to think about other humans

01:28:26.360 | and other experiences that are unlike your own.

01:28:28.280 | - Yeah, of course.

01:28:29.120 | - And so that's the sense I get.

01:28:30.000 | But at the same time, you're also like the grandpa,

01:28:34.160 | I mean, ageist, who's trying to be cool with the young kids.

01:28:36.880 | A lot of the reason young kids look up to you

01:28:40.200 | is like you also know the language of the internet.

01:28:42.920 | - Yeah, but I mean, that's not an excuse

01:28:44.600 | to use words that we think shouldn't be used.

01:28:46.720 | I guess the question that I would have,

01:28:48.360 | 'cause it's always a struggle,

01:28:49.240 | and to some extent it's kind of happened,

01:28:50.960 | is let's say that like three years ago,

01:28:53.720 | I would have said I'm no longer saying the R word,

01:28:55.840 | that's just, I'm just gonna get rid of that in my vocabulary.

01:28:58.320 | Like is there a chance that today,

01:29:00.240 | we would be having a conversation about like,

01:29:01.840 | why do you call people dumb fucks?

01:29:04.040 | Like is that really appropriate?

01:29:05.160 | Like does this attack at the core of like somebody's like,

01:29:07.640 | level of intelligence, education, opportunities in life,

01:29:10.320 | like is that worthy?

01:29:11.640 | You don't think so?

01:29:12.720 | - I think that's a, as the kids say, cope.

01:29:15.520 | - You really think so?

01:29:16.360 | - I think that's-- - Because the words

01:29:17.560 | have definitely moved in a way where it's like,

01:29:19.600 | this was okay, now it's not, this is okay, now it's not.

01:29:21.440 | - So you're standing your ground by using,

01:29:23.160 | listen, you could, you could, but I think it's better

01:29:28.160 | to use those words, if you want to defend the ground

01:29:32.280 | words stand on, to use them rarely and deliberately,

01:29:36.320 | versus how you currently use them,

01:29:38.760 | which is to express an emotion, like you,

01:29:43.760 | I'm going to be honest, you use R word,

01:29:45.920 | not when you're at your best.

01:29:47.640 | (laughing)

01:29:48.480 | - True.

01:29:49.320 | - And so that's not--

01:29:50.440 | - That's generally, that could be true

01:29:51.400 | for a lot of swearing too, but yeah, I know what you mean.

01:29:53.200 | - No, but like, you know that R word is offensive,

01:29:55.960 | you know, and there's part of it is like,

01:29:59.400 | you tell yourself that like, you're still kind of

01:30:03.600 | fighting political correctness by using it a little bit

01:30:06.640 | when you say it?

01:30:07.580 | - No, I don't think so, I think, I'm trying to think

01:30:09.680 | in terms of like, where is the virtue,

01:30:11.400 | where like, there's a whole bunch of arguments

01:30:12.840 | for why some words are okay, some words aren't okay,

01:30:14.720 | or whatever, and I try to like, think more along

01:30:16.560 | those lines rather than, but like, there's going to be

01:30:19.000 | like a lot of phrases where like, if the R word

01:30:21.680 | has come out, the conversation is over,

01:30:23.600 | like I know that, like things, my brain is shut down,

01:30:25.600 | the person I'm talking to is, but there's like,

01:30:27.240 | there's a lot of words also in terms of like,

01:30:29.440 | if you ever hear me say like, fucking moron in a debate,

01:30:32.000 | it's like, it's done, like this conversation is over,

01:30:33.980 | there's no way that anything productive

01:30:35.600 | is happening past that point.

01:30:37.000 | - I think fucking moron is not, I think it's ineffective,

01:30:40.180 | it's not civil, but it's not, it doesn't bother me

01:30:43.560 | in a way, it's basically when you speak in a way

01:30:47.720 | that I know there's a group that's going to be hurt by that,

01:30:51.360 | not only do I think about the hurt that group experiences,

01:30:54.000 | I think of you as a lesser intellectual,

01:30:57.800 | like as a lesser person who's thinking about the world.

01:31:00.560 | What bothers me the most is just what kind of mindset

01:31:05.560 | that inspires in young people, especially when you're

01:31:08.920 | a public figure and a lot of people look up to you.

01:31:11.440 | So I definitely don't think sort of this idea,

01:31:15.120 | the R word is not the battleground of expanding

01:31:19.100 | the Overton window of discourse, okay?

01:31:22.560 | Like I don't think it'll lead to dumb fuck being canceled

01:31:27.560 | two years later, unless that word is hurting

01:31:33.800 | people's experience, which I don't foresee that happening.

01:31:37.880 | I think legitimately, R word and F slur

01:31:42.000 | and calling women bitches, context matters here too,

01:31:47.000 | like of course, but just the way I've heard you use it,

01:31:50.760 | it is not, it's from emotion and it's from frustration

01:31:54.280 | and it ultimately is rooted in disrespect.

01:31:57.280 | I don't, I think it's ineffective.

01:31:59.440 | And of course, like who gets to say, I don't know,

01:32:02.880 | but I'm saying somebody who, like I admire

01:32:06.880 | effective conversations and I admire great humor,

01:32:11.280 | dark humor, wit.

01:32:13.140 | To me, oftentimes the use of the R word

01:32:18.200 | in the way you've used it and the way I see the community

01:32:20.240 | use it is none of those things.

01:32:22.200 | It contributes not at all to the humor and so on.

01:32:24.920 | Now I could see it might contribute to the camaraderie

01:32:28.920 | of that particular group, especially when they normalize

01:32:32.320 | the use of that word.

01:32:34.040 | You kind of take some of the edge off,

01:32:36.240 | but you forget that there's a large number of other people

01:32:40.960 | that don't have the chemistry, that don't hear the music

01:32:45.360 | of the friendship that you have, the relationship you have,

01:32:47.920 | and instead they hear the normalization of a hateful word

01:32:51.320 | and it ultimately has an impact that's hateful.

01:32:53.880 | And then people like me who show up,

01:32:56.000 | I haven't watched much of your stuff.

01:32:58.160 | It turns me off from, a couple of times your content

01:33:01.840 | came before me and I listened to it a little bit,

01:33:05.440 | it turned me off completely.

01:33:06.340 | I didn't understand how good your heart is.

01:33:09.340 | I didn't understand how your mission of actually

01:33:14.480 | de-radicalize people, help people, and increase the level

01:33:19.000 | of good faith discourse in the world.

01:33:21.440 | I didn't understand any of that,

01:33:22.720 | 'cause what I was hearing is pretty rough,

01:33:25.000 | the R word type of stuff.

01:33:27.080 | And I just feel like the benefit-cost analysis

01:33:29.440 | is heavy on the cost.

01:33:31.000 | - Gotcha.

01:33:31.840 | - So I just have to sort of call this out.

01:33:34.080 | And I straight up think it's wrong.

01:33:37.840 | - Why do you think it's wrong?

01:33:41.360 | - 'Cause it's hurting people without any benefit

01:33:43.760 | to you whatsoever.

01:33:45.040 | - When you say hurting people,

01:33:46.040 | do you mean the person I'm using it at,

01:33:47.120 | or do you think there's like the--

01:33:47.960 | - No, no, no, no, we're listening.

01:33:48.780 | - We're talking about the affected third group.

01:33:49.620 | - The third group.

01:33:51.240 | - It's good feedback, right?

01:33:52.120 | I always consider everything, especially,

01:33:53.600 | I respect you a lot, you're a really smart guy.

01:33:55.640 | Something that I always kind of like,

01:33:58.360 | fight over in terms of like language,

01:34:01.500 | or like who to attack, or what to attack, or what to do,

01:34:03.760 | is that it's very hard to draw like what boxes

01:34:07.840 | are okay to insult people on versus what aren't.

01:34:11.080 | So for instance, if I call somebody like a Nazi

01:34:13.800 | with a lot of vitriol, I'm okay with every single Nazi

01:34:18.120 | being negatively affected by that,

01:34:19.960 | because that category intrinsically calls upon it

01:34:23.960 | some level of more condemnation for me, right?

01:34:26.000 | Whereas like if I'm out there,

01:34:27.560 | I try not to do like image-related jokes, right?

01:34:29.440 | I don't wanna call you like,

01:34:30.280 | oh, you're a fat fucking loser,

01:34:31.520 | because there's a lot of people that are fat,

01:34:33.000 | that are overweight, where I don't want them to feel bad.

01:34:34.800 | I don't want them, I'm not trying to call you out

01:34:36.360 | or like insult you.

01:34:37.560 | So there's like a lot of, you say cost benefit,

01:34:40.400 | I like a lot of collateral damage from a word like that,

01:34:42.720 | where there's no purpose in doing that.

01:34:45.200 | So certain words are easy to get rid of,

01:34:46.920 | they're off the table, right?

01:34:48.120 | F slur, N word, like these are not words you call people,

01:34:51.160 | because there's so much collateral, it's not worth it.

01:34:53.880 | We've got some words where it's like,

01:34:56.200 | if you have some form of like mental thing,

01:34:58.360 | it is a bad thing, you're not a bad person,

01:35:00.200 | but just using that word could feel like

01:35:01.840 | a collateral damage to those people.

01:35:04.480 | And then there's other categories of words.

01:35:05.880 | So like, if I say that like,

01:35:07.720 | this person is like, it's a stupid fucking Republican,

01:35:10.840 | right, there's probably some Republicans that aren't dumb,

01:35:14.360 | that I don't wanna feel called out by that.

01:35:16.100 | Like, are those types of phrases that you think

01:35:17.960 | should be completely removed as well?

01:35:19.240 | Or I'm kind of curious.

01:35:20.760 | - This completely removed, just so we're clear.

01:35:24.040 | - Yeah.

01:35:24.860 | - I'm not referring to censorship.

01:35:26.600 | - Oh no, I'm not even talking about,

01:35:27.440 | I'm just a person like emotionally like--

01:35:29.320 | - Removed is the wrong word though.

01:35:30.680 | Like I care about, like, I'm not trying to listen

01:35:35.040 | to people on the internet saying

01:35:36.240 | like you shouldn't say that word, that's not good.

01:35:38.280 | I mean, I'm trying to look to your mind and heart.

01:35:43.280 | The reason we're talking today

01:35:45.160 | is you're betraying your gift.

01:35:48.260 | You're better than this.

01:35:49.880 | - You think it's indicative of like

01:35:51.040 | a more flippant thought process,

01:35:52.480 | where it's like the only way you can say that word

01:35:54.080 | is if you're ignoring the hurt and suffering of those people.

01:35:56.680 | And if you're somebody that says--

01:35:57.520 | - Not even those people, you're ignoring

01:36:00.400 | the state of language.

01:36:03.380 | 'Cause I think you're getting to the point,

01:36:04.840 | 'cause it's not about a single word.

01:36:06.400 | It's about like, it's music.

01:36:08.960 | And I just feel like there is--

01:36:10.640 | - Very strong note.

01:36:13.280 | - It's a strong note that ruins the melody.

01:36:15.760 | - Gotcha.

01:36:16.600 | - And I don't think I can say, you know,

01:36:17.960 | you shouldn't use the R word or whatever.

01:36:19.920 | I'm just speaking to, I'm just listening to music

01:36:22.560 | and reviewing the final result.

01:36:24.780 | It's not necessarily, 'cause maybe one use of the R word

01:36:28.840 | strategically or part of an actual,

01:36:32.200 | like when you've built up a camaraderie

01:36:35.200 | that's sandwiched in like some love,

01:36:38.960 | but then you try to reveal their,

01:36:40.800 | 'cause you're talking about a lot of,

01:36:42.040 | there's a bunch of drama, you have friends

01:36:44.900 | with whom you're worrying and stuff,

01:36:46.680 | and they're all a little bit beautifully insane.

01:36:50.800 | And you've said that you are becoming more and more insane.

01:36:53.320 | It's beautiful to watch,

01:36:54.200 | it's the human condition laid before us.

01:36:56.200 | Wonderful, and some of that is swearing and so on.

01:36:58.640 | So it's a tricky thing.

01:37:00.320 | But the whole skill of discourse,

01:37:04.840 | just like it is with dark humor, is walking that line.

01:37:07.200 | I just feel like it's overuse of the R word.

01:37:11.680 | And I don't wanna die in that ground,

01:37:13.200 | 'cause I don't think it's that representative.

01:37:15.360 | Like there's certain things like that,

01:37:17.920 | it feels like it ruins the music.

01:37:20.080 | - Gotcha.

01:37:20.920 | - And I don't, you know, it's the same,

01:37:21.740 | like a dumb Republican or a dumb Democrat, I don't,

01:37:24.880 | yeah, that ruins it too a little bit.

01:37:26.680 | Depends on how you use it.

01:37:28.760 | You can be lazy with that.

01:37:30.240 | - Yeah.

01:37:31.080 | - You know, like even overuse of the word,

01:37:32.440 | I think bots is what's used for people

01:37:34.360 | who don't think or something.

01:37:35.600 | I don't actually know the definition.

01:37:37.360 | I'm offended on behalf of robots.

01:37:39.540 | - That might be a compliment soon.

01:37:42.600 | (laughs)

01:37:43.440 | - Right, exactly.

01:37:44.280 | But I guess bot means you don't think.

01:37:46.280 | - Yeah, you're like an NPC, you just copy everybody else.

01:37:48.640 | - Again, I'm offended on behalf of NPCs,

01:37:50.520 | I count myself as one.

01:37:52.000 | But there's a sense if you say bots too much

01:37:55.880 | that you're just dismissing people.

01:37:58.120 | Like everything I say is right,

01:38:01.360 | and anyone that disagrees with me is a bot.

01:38:03.640 | That's lazy too.

01:38:05.720 | Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's effective.

01:38:08.840 | Basically saying a lot of people in the mainstream media

01:38:11.240 | or something like that are bots.

01:38:12.180 | Okay, that's, a little bit of that is effective.

01:38:15.280 | But too much, it becomes ineffective.

01:38:18.240 | And I'm trying to speak to that.

01:38:19.800 | - Yeah, I understand.

01:38:20.640 | - And I'm just, the reason we're highlighting

01:38:22.160 | clear examples, like the N word.

01:38:26.440 | Joe Rogan had to contend with that.

01:38:28.240 | - Oh yeah, the, yeah.

01:38:29.800 | - I think it's ineffective.

01:38:30.960 | It makes you less effective at discourse.

01:38:33.000 | But like you've talked about many times,

01:38:35.760 | language is a tricky one.

01:38:37.640 | - It's always hard 'cause you talk about

01:38:38.840 | constructing a melody.

01:38:40.040 | There's not one melody that sounds good to everyone.

01:38:42.840 | But there are probably certain notes that like,

01:38:44.680 | if you got rid of them,

01:38:46.320 | everybody's still gonna like it about as much,

01:38:48.080 | and you don't really lose anything.

01:38:49.000 | There's a whole other part of an audience

01:38:50.280 | that might be more willing to listen, of course.

01:38:52.520 | - And it's not about losing the magic of that melody.

01:38:55.160 | You don't wanna be vanilla.

01:38:56.620 | I just feel like there's stuff

01:38:58.880 | that doesn't need to be there.

01:39:00.320 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:39:01.160 | - It's fat.

01:39:02.200 | But then again, you're,

01:39:03.440 | the other thing that people should understand

01:39:06.080 | that might be listening to this,

01:39:07.440 | you're streaming many hours a day for many years.

01:39:11.480 | I don't know, it's a--

01:39:12.320 | - 11 or 12, I think, yeah.

01:39:13.520 | Started in 2010.

01:39:14.360 | - And so one of the things that people can do

01:39:16.200 | is just clip out anything.

01:39:18.240 | You're going through the full human experience of emotion.

01:39:21.880 | Anger, fear, frustration, all of it.

01:39:25.640 | So of course, there's going to be moments

01:39:27.600 | when you're not the best version of yourself.

01:39:29.840 | Anything else to say about the language?

01:39:33.160 | - It's complicated.

01:39:34.520 | I'm still always trying to figure it out.

01:39:36.200 | There are opinions that I have

01:39:37.360 | that have changed throughout the years.

01:39:38.920 | It's possible that the R word has always been

01:39:40.880 | the next one on the chopping block

01:39:42.200 | that we're all kinda looking at,

01:39:43.080 | but people are always worried about that treadmill.

01:39:45.120 | But it's possible in a year or two,

01:39:46.080 | I'll have a different view on it,

01:39:47.120 | or I'll have changed away some of the words I use.

01:39:50.360 | Yeah, it's definitely like a,

01:39:51.400 | it's always like a work in progress.

01:39:52.520 | There's always like different communities

01:39:53.680 | that feel different ways about different words, yeah.

01:39:56.120 | - Yeah, but do you acknowledge that there's people out there

01:39:59.040 | that are never gonna talk to you?

01:40:00.680 | They're never gonna think of you as a good man

01:40:05.800 | because you used the N word with a hard R publicly.

01:40:09.200 | - In the past?

01:40:10.200 | I mean, yeah, those people exist,

01:40:11.560 | but I mean, there are some people that are beyond my reach,

01:40:16.160 | which I'm okay with.

01:40:17.260 | Like, there's gonna be some people

01:40:18.160 | because of things that have been involved,

01:40:19.080 | or even ideas that I have now

01:40:20.640 | that might make them beyond my reach.

01:40:23.140 | Something you said earlier was very true.

01:40:25.520 | I think the goal is to identify

01:40:27.160 | what are the elements that you can cut out

01:40:29.120 | that aren't integral to your message,

01:40:30.900 | but could be alienating to more people,

01:40:34.200 | and those are probably the things that you identify.

01:40:35.740 | But I think that you can get lost in yourself,

01:40:38.160 | or lost in the internet,

01:40:39.400 | or lost in the outside of yourself

01:40:42.360 | if you're trying to appeal to every single person.

01:40:44.200 | It's just never gonna be the case.

01:40:45.840 | And for, I actually,

01:40:47.480 | I like that I've had the journey

01:40:49.200 | that I've had on the internet,

01:40:50.200 | that you can find me saying and defending

01:40:52.080 | a lot of insane stuff 10 years ago,

01:40:53.960 | because I think it shows a level of progress.

01:40:55.760 | And I think I do get a lot of respect

01:40:57.240 | and buy-in to certain communities,

01:40:58.800 | where it's like, I'm not just some random dude

01:41:00.800 | telling you that, oh, you shouldn't say

01:41:02.700 | the F word or the N word.

01:41:03.920 | I'm a guy that's been there, that's done it,

01:41:05.480 | that's defended it, and you can see my whole past,

01:41:07.240 | my whole history is laid bare for you

01:41:08.840 | to watch every, thousands of hours of it.

01:41:12.100 | But I can show that there's growth,

01:41:13.360 | and evolution, and change that can happen in a person.

01:41:15.480 | - Yeah, and you're honest about that growth.

01:41:18.340 | It's a tricky thing, 'cause people just call,

01:41:21.080 | bring up stuff from your past.

01:41:23.160 | - For sure.

01:41:24.060 | - I hope we figure out, as a civilization,

01:41:27.000 | a mechanism to clearly say, this was me two years ago,

01:41:31.640 | this was me five years ago, I'm a different person.

01:41:34.780 | Because Twitter doesn't care about that.

01:41:38.640 | These social mechanisms that bring stuff up

01:41:40.680 | doesn't care about that.

01:41:42.200 | It's like, one stupid thing you say,

01:41:44.680 | it becomes like a scarlet letter.

01:41:46.760 | And I don't know how to fight that.

01:41:47.960 | It's tricky to fight that.

01:41:49.240 | - Have you ever seen Men in Black?

01:41:50.960 | - Yes.

01:41:51.800 | - When KJ on the bench, and he says,

01:41:53.240 | a person is smart, but people are stupid,

01:41:55.520 | dumb, finicky animals, or whatever,

01:41:57.480 | there's something that changes for human dynamics

01:41:59.880 | when there is a group of people

01:42:01.880 | that make it so hard to control.

01:42:03.160 | Like, I think one-on-one, anybody can sit across

01:42:05.720 | from somebody and admit to some horrible stuff.

01:42:07.920 | I used to be, I abused my husband when I was 20,

01:42:11.960 | and now I'm 35, and I see it's wrong, or I did this,

01:42:14.000 | I was addicted to whatever, and I made these mistakes.

01:42:16.200 | One-on-one, it's always easy.

01:42:17.680 | But in group environments, that in-group, out-group,

01:42:20.880 | tribalistic thing of identifying one thing

01:42:22.960 | and then coming to destroy a person's life

01:42:24.560 | is such a huge impulse we have.

01:42:27.900 | And I think, probably when we were hunter-gatherers

01:42:30.400 | in the forest, probably good,

01:42:31.920 | 'cause you really wanna push weird people out

01:42:34.080 | or anything like that.

01:42:34.920 | But now on the internet, when we can hunt

01:42:36.760 | for any dissenting opinion, and just,

01:42:38.880 | with ruthless precision, destroy somebody's life over it,

01:42:41.560 | it's a pretty scary dynamic.

01:42:43.400 | - I think one of the mechanisms that could fix it

01:42:45.980 | is make it super easy for each individual person

01:42:49.280 | to analyze all the stupid shit they themselves have said

01:42:51.920 | in the past, like a full recording.

01:42:54.300 | Because I think people are just honestly,

01:42:58.440 | paint a very rosy picture to their own brain

01:43:00.720 | of who they have been in the past.

01:43:03.440 | - Yeah, of course.

01:43:04.280 | - If we can have empathy for the fact

01:43:05.920 | that we've said stupid shit, or we're drunk,

01:43:08.840 | the ridiculous things you say,

01:43:10.480 | the offensive things you might have said,

01:43:12.360 | the offensive things you might have done,

01:43:13.680 | I just feel like that would give us the ammunition

01:43:18.680 | to have empathy for others that are like,

01:43:21.320 | okay, yeah, this guy five years ago said this.

01:43:23.880 | Maybe that doesn't represent who they are

01:43:27.640 | any more than stuff I said five years ago

01:43:30.000 | represents who I am today.

01:43:32.420 | I feel like technology can actually enable that.

01:43:34.800 | - Maybe, although you're talking about more recording

01:43:37.400 | and more stuff, which people are already wary of.

01:43:39.440 | - It's a double-edged sword.

01:43:42.100 | I think there is going to be more and more recording.

01:43:44.480 | We have to figure out how to do that

01:43:45.680 | in the way that respects people's privacy

01:43:47.840 | and gives them ownership of their data and so on.

01:43:49.880 | I've looked at the search history I've done on Google,

01:43:52.840 | which for most people is available,

01:43:54.560 | like your Google search history,

01:43:56.360 | and it's fascinating to watch the evolution

01:43:57.840 | of a human being.

01:43:58.800 | It doesn't seem like the same person.

01:44:01.440 | It's like a different person.

01:44:02.440 | - For sure.

01:44:03.440 | - It's weird.

01:44:04.280 | - It's also hard too with the internet today.

01:44:05.880 | I'm gonna be ageist again,

01:44:07.280 | but now all of the people are thrown together,

01:44:09.920 | whereas I don't want a 27-year-old judging

01:44:13.340 | the image of a 15 or 16-year-old.

01:44:15.540 | Obviously, he's in high school.

01:44:16.980 | There was that story that came out of the,

01:44:18.500 | there was a kid that saved a recording of,

01:44:20.700 | I think it was some white girl.

01:44:22.140 | I think that she got her driver's license

01:44:23.820 | and she was like, "I can drive now, N-words,"

01:44:25.900 | with the A or whatever.

01:44:26.820 | It was dumb, she shouldn't have said it,

01:44:27.820 | but I think she was 15 or 16

01:44:29.220 | when she TikTok'd this or whatever.

01:44:31.020 | And he held onto that recording until she applied

01:44:33.020 | and got accepted to college three years later,

01:44:35.120 | and then he released it to get her kicked out of college.

01:44:37.180 | And I'm like, "Damn."

01:44:39.220 | If everything that I had ever said

01:44:40.840 | as a 15, 16-year-old was immortalized on the internet,

01:44:44.520 | my life wouldn't have even begun. (laughs)

01:44:47.140 | 'Cause those are insanely high standards to hold people to.

01:44:50.400 | Not that, obviously, you shouldn't be saying those,

01:44:53.480 | you shouldn't be saying certain words or whatever,

01:44:54.800 | but you have to be able to make mistakes in adolescence.

01:44:57.840 | Everybody does, we all did.

01:44:59.200 | Everybody did it growing up.

01:45:00.600 | - Why do you think there is so much misogyny

01:45:03.920 | in the streaming community?

01:45:06.120 | And how can you fight it?

01:45:07.680 | 'Cause you've shown a lot of interest in fighting it,

01:45:11.840 | trying to decrease or eliminate misogyny

01:45:14.560 | from your community.

01:45:15.960 | - I think it's really difficult.

01:45:17.640 | I think that eliminating racism

01:45:19.000 | is easier than eliminating misogyny.

01:45:21.520 | - On the internet, you mean?

01:45:22.720 | - On anywhere.

01:45:24.160 | 'Cause I think fundamentally,

01:45:25.400 | I don't think there's that much difference

01:45:26.320 | between white people and black people

01:45:27.960 | and brown people and Asian people or whatever.

01:45:30.280 | We have different cultures and stuff,

01:45:31.320 | but at the end of the day, we're all people.

01:45:33.400 | But I think there are differences between men and women,

01:45:36.360 | like throughout all of history and time,

01:45:38.920 | and then even today in every culture.

01:45:40.800 | And when real differences do exist,

01:45:42.960 | it's harder to account for them in a way

01:45:44.600 | that can we have conversations with each other

01:45:46.560 | without it becoming very gendered in a negative way, right?

01:45:49.680 | Negative way of gendering something

01:45:51.000 | would be like a misogynistic way of doing it.

01:45:52.920 | - Of course, it's unclear to me that it's so difficult

01:45:57.440 | to avoid the negative gendering versus the positive,

01:46:02.360 | 'cause there's a lot of positive to the tension,

01:46:04.640 | the dance between the different genders and so on.

01:46:06.640 | Maybe in this particular moment in history, it's not.

01:46:09.840 | But it's not trivial to me that racism

01:46:12.000 | is easier to eliminate.

01:46:13.080 | It's an interesting hypothesis,

01:46:14.960 | just because there's more biological difference

01:46:17.400 | between men and women.

01:46:18.680 | That means it's harder to eliminate, but.

01:46:20.760 | - I don't know if this is true.

01:46:21.600 | I hear this a lot.

01:46:22.420 | I feel like I read this somewhere,

01:46:23.260 | but I need to get a better source

01:46:24.080 | before I repeat it everywhere.

01:46:24.920 | But I've heard that in the US military, for instance,

01:46:27.160 | they've gotten exceedingly well,

01:46:29.220 | they do an exceedingly good job

01:46:30.640 | at getting different people of different races to integrate.

01:46:33.640 | And it's not a huge problem

01:46:35.200 | once you're through basic training,

01:46:36.800 | all the training, everything.

01:46:38.200 | But for different sexes,

01:46:39.440 | it still represents a significant problem

01:46:41.120 | that the military hasn't figured out.

01:46:42.640 | And I actually looked at like,

01:46:43.480 | well, what's the military doing?

01:46:44.400 | 'Cause if something was solvable,

01:46:45.800 | like can we sleep for four hours a night and be healthy?

01:46:47.800 | If we could, I bet the military would know.

01:46:49.440 | So I kind of look sometimes to them

01:46:50.440 | to see their integration.

01:46:51.280 | But it might be that there are other issues there

01:46:52.980 | that make it kind of--

01:46:53.820 | - Yeah, it feels like the military

01:46:54.880 | is a very particular kind of--

01:46:55.720 | - For sure, yeah, it could be.

01:46:56.640 | - The actual task at hand might bias

01:47:01.600 | the difficulty of the process.

01:47:03.280 | - Potentially, yeah.

01:47:04.440 | There's been a lot of interesting talk

01:47:06.840 | about like women integrating into male groups.

01:47:10.800 | And how do you do this in a way

01:47:12.720 | where everybody is happy with the outcome

01:47:15.240 | and there's not like issues.

01:47:18.080 | I think Jordan Peterson spoke about this a little bit.

01:47:19.960 | And then Workplace Culture speaks about this a bit.

01:47:22.320 | Would you happen to remember,

01:47:24.280 | I wanna say it was like five or 10 years ago,

01:47:26.240 | there was a big tech conference

01:47:27.920 | and there were two guys behind a woman

01:47:29.480 | and they made a joke about like a USB dongle,

01:47:32.200 | like dongle was a dick.

01:47:33.600 | And this woman turned around,

01:47:34.640 | she tweeted pictures of them,

01:47:35.960 | spoke about like misogyny.

01:47:37.240 | And then that blew up into a huge ordeal that like, yeah.

01:47:41.560 | There was this interesting phenomenon

01:47:43.700 | that in a less misogynistic

01:47:47.520 | and more inclusive workplace environment,

01:47:50.080 | some women might end up feeling worse

01:47:53.360 | because in a more misogynistic environment,

01:47:54.920 | you're thinking like, okay, that's a woman,

01:47:56.660 | she doesn't get our humor.

01:47:57.640 | I'm gonna treat her in a very indifferent,

01:48:00.360 | very dispassionate, cold way and whatever.

01:48:02.320 | And then I'm gonna have my boys over here.

01:48:04.160 | And then you've got like these environments

01:48:05.560 | where they're a little bit more warmer

01:48:06.560 | and it's like, oh, cool,

01:48:07.520 | we're gonna bring this woman into our environment

01:48:09.000 | and we're gonna make all the same types

01:48:10.200 | of like crass jokes we did before.

01:48:11.960 | And it's actually worse now.

01:48:13.080 | Now the woman feels even more otherwise

01:48:14.520 | 'cause like, oh my God, why do you talk like this?

01:48:16.600 | I think that internet communities,

01:48:18.000 | especially online ones that do like political debate

01:48:20.480 | and video games are very much like big boys clubs.

01:48:23.600 | So it's not enough to just say,

01:48:25.360 | you can't be misogynistic to get rid of misogyny.

01:48:27.860 | There's always gonna be an othering effect on women.

01:48:30.040 | There's a lot of like behaviors that are unintuitive

01:48:32.560 | that you have to account for

01:48:33.560 | and you've gotta try to like push that back.

01:48:35.520 | And that's just a very, very, very challenging thing to do.

01:48:38.760 | So I like to deal with concrete examples more.

01:48:40.880 | So here's a concrete example.

01:48:42.240 | And this is like a recent initiative in my community

01:48:44.080 | 'cause I'm trying to like be,

01:48:45.200 | 'cause misogyny hasn't been fixed anywhere on the internet.

01:48:47.000 | I'm curious, well, there are ways

01:48:47.840 | that I can push my community to do this.

01:48:50.360 | I don't think you should almost ever make a comment

01:48:52.040 | on a woman's appearance ever,

01:48:53.440 | if they're appearing in like some political

01:48:55.040 | or professional manner.

01:48:56.240 | Even if it's a positive comment,

01:48:57.680 | I think it's equally bad to a negative comment.

01:48:59.600 | It's just never good to do.

01:49:01.160 | And that's kind of an unintuitive thing

01:49:02.440 | 'cause it's like, well, a woman appears,

01:49:04.000 | wow, she's really cute.

01:49:05.320 | It seems like a nice comment.

01:49:06.240 | You're being nice, you know, she looks cute or whatever,

01:49:07.720 | but it's like, it's not at all the point of why she's there.

01:49:09.680 | And just by saying that,

01:49:10.900 | you're kind of like otherizing her as like a person

01:49:12.760 | to like think she looks good

01:49:14.480 | rather than listening to anything she has to say, you know?

01:49:17.120 | - Well, there's a lot of stuff that you're saying

01:49:20.000 | that is a part of misogyny that's almost like obvious.

01:49:26.080 | Like any woman will tell you that.

01:49:27.680 | - Woman will, yeah, but they're not in these spaces

01:49:29.400 | and a lot of the guys don't know.

01:49:30.240 | - But I think what that requires is just empathy.

01:49:34.760 | You need to consider the female experience.

01:49:40.320 | That's it.

01:49:41.160 | Like you have to either read about or talk with women.

01:49:44.120 | You learn, like the low-hanging fruit is very easy to learn.

01:49:47.440 | It feels like just the level of social skill

01:49:49.640 | oftentimes in internet communities is quite low.

01:49:54.240 | - I disagree.

01:49:55.080 | I don't like to say, here's the problem with empathy

01:49:57.600 | is it's very hard to have empathy for experiences

01:50:00.160 | that are so outside of your own.

01:50:02.440 | Well, maybe some people,

01:50:03.500 | there might be some people that can do it, I can't.

01:50:05.260 | There's a lot of stuff that I had to learn.

01:50:07.080 | - Women are half the population.

01:50:08.800 | - But they're women.

01:50:09.800 | They're totally different.

01:50:12.000 | - They're totally different.

01:50:14.520 | We'll talk about it right though.

01:50:16.800 | They're not totally different.

01:50:18.360 | - So here's an example, okay?

01:50:19.640 | So especially for me,

01:50:22.360 | my archetype makes up a lot of the internet, white man.

01:50:27.040 | There's never been a point--

01:50:28.280 | - The name of a beautiful woman.

01:50:29.880 | - Who might be a dancer.

01:50:30.920 | - What's the backstory, from New Orleans or from--

01:50:33.240 | - I haven't thought that through yet.

01:50:35.160 | It's ambiguous, okay?

01:50:36.400 | - Like an open world--

01:50:37.600 | - Open world, I want you to project wherever you want

01:50:39.920 | destiny of the dancer to be from, that's in your mind, okay?

01:50:42.320 | - All right, I'll save that for later tonight.

01:50:44.160 | - Yeah, okay.

01:50:45.000 | As a white guy, I don't know if there's ever been a spot

01:50:49.540 | that I've been in where I've been made to feel like

01:50:51.840 | I don't belong there just by virtue of who I am.

01:50:54.400 | I actually don't, it's impossible for me to empathize that

01:50:57.440 | 'cause I don't even have that experience.

01:50:59.840 | If you go back eight, nine years,

01:51:01.880 | one of the big issues that came up

01:51:03.320 | was harassment in gaming against women.

01:51:05.600 | And I was one of the big debaters against that,

01:51:08.220 | saying that like, sure, women might get harassment,

01:51:10.980 | but everybody gets harassment.

01:51:12.560 | If you're a woman and you're in gaming and you get harassed,

01:51:15.200 | congratulations, you're being treated like a man.

01:51:16.920 | What you're actually asking for

01:51:18.280 | is for us to actually treat you differently.

01:51:19.640 | You don't wanna be insulted.

01:51:21.040 | You don't wanna be treated like a man.

01:51:22.240 | And that's actually misogyny

01:51:23.520 | is women making that argument.

01:51:24.720 | - Do you still stand by that?

01:51:26.280 | - Is that a problem if I do?

01:51:27.980 | No, I'm just kidding.

01:51:29.280 | Okay, hold on.

01:51:30.640 | So a little while after--

01:51:31.480 | - I disagree with it.

01:51:32.600 | - Sure, okay, that's good, you should.

01:51:34.320 | A little while later, I had a friend, Jessica,

01:51:37.240 | super cool girl.

01:51:38.280 | We go to play games.

01:51:39.360 | She was between jobs and she's like,

01:51:40.600 | "I've got like two months and we're gonna grind CSGO."

01:51:42.800 | And I'm like, "Okay, this is awesome, let's do it."

01:51:45.040 | CSGO, Counter-Strike, Global Offensive,

01:51:47.200 | shooter game, FPS, microphones.

01:51:49.740 | First day we start playing, okay?

01:51:50.920 | Hop into our first game.

01:51:52.280 | Obviously she talks, everybody's making,

01:51:53.960 | "Is that a 12 year old boy?

01:51:55.000 | "Why aren't you making sandwiches?"

01:51:56.160 | Blah, blah, blah, yeah, okay, whatever.

01:51:57.520 | Play our first game, play our second game, same jokes.

01:52:00.040 | Third game, fourth game.

01:52:01.240 | By like the fourth or fifth game,

01:52:03.240 | I was actually starting to feel triggered.

01:52:04.720 | Like every time the game started, I was like,

01:52:06.100 | "Can you just like talk so we can get over

01:52:07.720 | "like the stupid fucking jokes, it's so fucking stupid."

01:52:10.560 | And you hear the same fucking joke every single time.

01:52:13.680 | And it took one day of that experience

01:52:16.120 | for me to realize it's not about being insulted.

01:52:19.020 | It's like this othering feeling that you don't belong.

01:52:21.400 | And I've never felt that because I'm a white guy.

01:52:23.760 | Not to be like virtue signaling,

01:52:24.960 | but like there's no places where it's like,

01:52:26.400 | "You're white, you don't belong here.

01:52:27.400 | "You're a guy, you don't belong here."

01:52:29.200 | Like I've never felt that non-inclusion.

01:52:31.040 | And playing with her, there's a different feeling

01:52:34.400 | when it's the same types of jokes

01:52:36.400 | coming from a group of people

01:52:37.480 | to make you feel like you don't belong there.

01:52:39.680 | Where I was like, "Damn, this actually feels really bad."

01:52:42.520 | And it feels bad in a different way

01:52:43.880 | where it's like if you call me like an F slur

01:52:46.480 | or any other type of swear word or insult,

01:52:49.040 | like yeah, you can call me that,

01:52:50.100 | but at the end of the day, we're all kind of the same.

01:52:51.920 | We're all white dudes and we call each other names.

01:52:53.680 | But like, this is a woman and this is not her place

01:52:56.200 | and she doesn't belong here.

01:52:58.160 | Kind of the analogy that I would make,

01:53:00.000 | 'cause after getting these experiences,

01:53:01.560 | I would learn this afterwards.

01:53:03.280 | If I tell you that there's another guy in a room

01:53:05.820 | and you need to think of the worst insults ever

01:53:07.720 | for that person without ever knowing anything about them

01:53:09.760 | or meeting them, if I tell you

01:53:11.280 | that it's like a white straight guy

01:53:12.760 | and you have to write insults, you're fucked.

01:53:15.160 | Maybe you can do like school shooter,

01:53:16.760 | but there's not really much you can say

01:53:18.360 | at the end of the day.

01:53:19.400 | But if I tell you it's a woman,

01:53:21.060 | we could, there are so many different jokes you can write.

01:53:23.040 | If it's a black person,

01:53:24.100 | so many different racist things we can say.

01:53:25.900 | - Are you sure?

01:53:26.740 | I can come up with a lot of stuff for a white guy.

01:53:28.860 | - In terms of stuff that is just intrinsic

01:53:30.420 | to him being a white guy?

01:53:31.780 | - Yeah, like there's--

01:53:33.420 | - Really?

01:53:34.260 | - Wait a minute, what are you talking about?

01:53:36.080 | There's a lot, the internet has sharpened that sword.

01:53:39.520 | - In terms of like jokes that are targeted at his sex--

01:53:42.620 | - Incel, virgin, weak.

01:53:46.620 | - Some of the incel, virgin, maybe.

01:53:48.340 | - Yeah, that's getting there, sure.

01:53:49.580 | That's for sure.

01:53:50.420 | That's recent though, sorry, I'm older on the internet.

01:53:52.980 | We didn't have those words way back then.

01:53:54.420 | - That wasn't--

01:53:55.260 | - When I was making these analogies,

01:53:56.140 | that incel and virgin--

01:53:56.980 | - Back in my day, we didn't have general--

01:53:58.460 | - There were no incels back then.

01:53:59.940 | None of us had sex, we just accepted it.

01:54:01.280 | We were all computer gamers.

01:54:02.420 | Nobody had sex to play video games back then, okay?

01:54:04.500 | People don't remember that.

01:54:05.340 | There wasn't the Big Bang Theory.

01:54:06.460 | You were just a loser that was stuck in--

01:54:07.820 | - You guys didn't even know sex existed

01:54:09.340 | so you could use it as an incel.

01:54:10.180 | - Exactly, yeah.

01:54:11.000 | We had to download sexual pictures and it took two minutes

01:54:12.780 | and you didn't even know if you were gonna get

01:54:13.780 | the right thing by the time it finished loading.

01:54:15.420 | But what I'm saying is that, okay,

01:54:17.180 | I think you agree that if somebody gives you a race,

01:54:19.780 | like a black person who's a woman,

01:54:21.420 | we can write very cutting, scathing insults

01:54:24.340 | for that person that are very otherizing.

01:54:26.220 | - Or words that would really hurt if they're spoken to.

01:54:28.180 | - Yeah, that are very cutting to the person.

01:54:30.100 | But for a white guy, it's kinda hard

01:54:33.120 | because that's the default.

01:54:34.500 | There's not as much otherizing of those people.

01:54:36.460 | Yeah, that's kind of the point.

01:54:37.300 | - So the insults you have from white guy to white guy,

01:54:40.060 | the insults are much harsher.

01:54:41.780 | So when you start to apply the same kind of harshness

01:54:44.060 | to other groups--

01:54:45.300 | - You can make them feel like they really don't belong.

01:54:47.580 | And that otherizing effect is something

01:54:49.460 | that's very hard for me.

01:54:50.420 | I can't really empathize with it 'cause I've never felt it.

01:54:52.380 | So I have to intellectualize it and then sympathize with it.

01:54:54.660 | It's like a whole process I have to go through.

01:54:56.260 | And then I try to walk other people through that

01:54:58.100 | 'cause if you're a white guy on the internet,

01:54:59.640 | which is a lot of the internet,

01:55:00.560 | you really don't know what that feels like.

01:55:01.700 | You've never felt like that before.

01:55:02.980 | - Well, so you're now in a leadership position,

01:55:05.620 | Grandpa Destiny, so that's, a lot of people look up to you

01:55:10.320 | for that, for that sort of pathway to empathy.

01:55:14.260 | - Yeah.

01:55:15.460 | - How not to otherize.

01:55:17.420 | I mean, you have felt otherizing.

01:55:18.940 | You mentioned high school people not being--

01:55:22.460 | - Yeah, but those were always for things that,

01:55:24.380 | it's different to insult somebody

01:55:25.820 | for a non-immutable characteristic.

01:55:27.700 | Like, okay, you think poorly about me

01:55:29.160 | because I'm not enough money or I don't have money,

01:55:31.220 | but I could get more money and I could change that.

01:55:33.020 | But it's different for somebody to really attack you

01:55:34.740 | for your gender or attack you for your race.

01:55:37.940 | - A lot of the attacks that hit the hardest

01:55:39.700 | is not about gender.

01:55:40.900 | I do think that they're,

01:55:44.880 | the way women are attacked on the internet,

01:55:47.920 | it's the same kind of attacks you would do

01:55:50.000 | towards other guys, but you go harsher.

01:55:52.560 | - I feel like they're fundamentally different.

01:55:54.520 | I feel like when we're attacking guys,

01:55:56.420 | I'm not usually attacking you

01:55:58.520 | on the virtue of you being a guy,

01:56:02.720 | but if it's a woman and she's typing something,

01:56:04.600 | like, oh, did your boyfriend type that for you?

01:56:06.400 | Or like, what are you even doing here?

01:56:07.880 | Shouldn't you be trying to find a husband?

01:56:09.700 | Or like, oh, you're like a stupid,

01:56:11.220 | go start an OnlyFans or whatever.

01:56:12.060 | - No, but the stupidity,

01:56:13.180 | the intelligence aspect is what's attacked.

01:56:15.140 | - Yeah, but it's so much different.

01:56:16.260 | Like, you can call a guy stupid,

01:56:17.740 | but that's because he's a guy that's being stupid.

01:56:19.520 | But when you call a woman stupid,

01:56:20.620 | she's stupid because she's a woman.

01:56:21.980 | - Yeah, but I honestly think that women

01:56:24.220 | are called stupid more than men on the internet.

01:56:27.820 | It's nothing to do, like, the attack is not gendered.

01:56:32.300 | It's the gender inspires an increased level of attack.

01:56:37.300 | I feel like it is gendered.

01:56:38.820 | - I wish we had data on this.

01:56:40.740 | - Have you ever heard of the XKCD comics?

01:56:42.680 | - Yes.

01:56:43.520 | - It's a really good comic where,

01:56:44.560 | and this is something that I've dealt

01:56:45.860 | with a lot in my community, okay?

01:56:47.700 | There's a guy at a board and he fucks up a math equation,

01:56:51.060 | and it's like, wow, you suck at math.

01:56:52.940 | And then the next panelist, there's a girl that does it,

01:56:55.100 | and she fucks it up, and it's like, wow,

01:56:56.460 | women suck at math.

01:56:57.940 | And there's like that feeling that happens

01:56:59.540 | where when I bring on, I won't use names,

01:57:02.680 | but there are like YouTube people that I've brought on

01:57:04.160 | that have crazy opinions.

01:57:05.740 | And when they're men, that person is crazy.

01:57:08.180 | Oh my God, he said the crazy stuff.

01:57:09.840 | He's so dumb, he's so crazy, he's so stupid.

01:57:11.940 | But when it's a woman, it's like, oh my God,

01:57:14.100 | why do you always bring dumb women here?

01:57:15.400 | Why do so many women on the internet have crazy opinions?

01:57:17.540 | There's a different minority character

01:57:19.220 | that has to stand it and represent their whole group

01:57:23.300 | where white men don't typically have to.

01:57:25.420 | - Speaking of groups versus individuals, yes.

01:57:27.820 | But then what I feel happens is then another person

01:57:31.820 | from that group comes, another woman comes,

01:57:34.200 | and people before she says anything

01:57:37.120 | will already feel like they're ready with that attack.

01:57:41.100 | - For sure.

01:57:41.940 | But they're ready for the attack 'cause she's a woman.

01:57:43.740 | They're gonna call her, she's stupid because she's a woman,

01:57:45.420 | not because she says something,

01:57:46.260 | but just 'cause she's a woman.

01:57:48.420 | - So like the group in their brain

01:57:52.420 | accumulates all the negative characteristics

01:57:54.820 | of the individuals they've met.

01:57:56.420 | Not the positive, the negative.

01:57:57.820 | And it becomes like this ball of stickiness.

01:58:00.100 | And then that becomes the bias for their judgment

01:58:03.140 | of a new person that comes.

01:58:04.980 | With white men, there's more of a blank slate

01:58:07.420 | in terms of bias of how they analyze the person.

01:58:09.980 | With any of the minority group,

01:58:12.300 | they're basically make a judgment

01:58:14.780 | based on the negative characteristics

01:58:16.540 | of the individuals they've met in the past.

01:58:18.420 | That leads to a system where you're just harsher

01:58:22.100 | towards minority groups and towards women.

01:58:24.700 | How do you solve that?

01:58:26.060 | - The most important thing for any problem ever

01:58:27.840 | is step one is to be aware of it.

01:58:29.420 | If you're not aware of it,

01:58:30.640 | then you're hopelessly lost at sea.

01:58:33.220 | But yeah, the first thing I like to say,

01:58:34.460 | she's like, be aware of it.

01:58:35.300 | Like I've had, there's a girl that I've had on recently

01:58:37.380 | and she says a lot of, in my opinion, kind of crazy things,

01:58:40.080 | but people will use her as like,

01:58:41.400 | this is why women shouldn't be here.

01:58:42.660 | This is like, she's crazy and she's a woman and blah, blah,

01:58:44.640 | blah.

01:58:45.480 | But I can bring on a guy who says similarly dumb things

01:58:47.120 | and he's evaluated on his own merits 'cause it's a guy.

01:58:50.760 | There's never, ever, ever been a case

01:58:52.380 | where I brought a stupid guy on stream

01:58:53.960 | and everybody's been like, this guy makes me hate men.

01:58:56.160 | This guy makes me hate white people.

01:58:57.400 | That has never happened.

01:58:58.640 | But then there's like other women that come on

01:59:00.240 | and it's like, now I know why incels exist

01:59:02.080 | or I totally understand where red pill ideology comes from.

01:59:04.680 | And even if the statements are kind of true,

01:59:06.760 | when you're making these observations over and over

01:59:08.440 | and over and over again,

01:59:09.280 | it damages your ability to individually perceive somebody.

01:59:12.800 | And then two people that make the same statements,

01:59:14.580 | one can be perceived more harshly

01:59:16.240 | just because of that like group bias you've got built up.

01:59:18.360 | - I think there's something about streaming

01:59:19.760 | that just brings that out of people.

01:59:21.120 | Like, 'cause you have to talk for like seven hours.

01:59:23.480 | So you're like, all right,

01:59:24.520 | well, whatever psychological issues and complexities I have,

01:59:28.040 | I'm going to explore them.

01:59:28.880 | - They're gonna be magnified. - Magnified.

01:59:31.240 | And then it's the, as you talked about,

01:59:33.400 | the mimetic theories or Girardian,

01:59:37.320 | like whatever the things that are very similar

01:59:40.360 | and you're going to magnify the conflicts that you have

01:59:43.200 | and you're going to explore all the different perspectives

01:59:46.080 | on those different conflicts.

01:59:47.440 | And I mean, I don't know if it's just anecdotal,

01:59:50.120 | but it's nice to have women on stream.

01:59:52.760 | I think the dynamic that you guys have is wonderful.

01:59:57.520 | It's really interesting.

01:59:58.920 | So it's just the female voice in general.

02:00:01.160 | I love having women on the podcast.

02:00:03.720 | The female voice, I feel like is under heard on the internet.

02:00:07.560 | - For sure.

02:00:08.400 | - And I would love the internet to be a place

02:00:10.360 | where women feel safe to speak.

02:00:12.960 | All right, given that you're,

02:00:15.040 | like we talked about a progressive

02:00:17.120 | with nonstandard progressive views.

02:00:19.760 | So you're very pro-free speech, pro-capitalism.

02:00:24.560 | So given that, it's very interesting

02:00:26.040 | that you're also pro-establishment and pro-institutions.

02:00:30.240 | So right now, if you look at the world,

02:00:32.840 | there's a significant distrust of institutions,

02:00:36.000 | at least in sort of public intellectual discourse.

02:00:39.400 | What is the nature of your support

02:00:41.200 | for government and institutions?

02:00:42.800 | Can you make the case for and against them?

02:00:45.300 | - Broadly speaking, there is a synergistic effect

02:00:51.440 | when two humans come together.

02:00:53.440 | If I can speak very broadly in terms of,

02:00:56.800 | we'll say utility, okay?

02:00:58.680 | My happiness with one person might be 10.

02:01:01.680 | The happiness with another person might be 10.

02:01:03.600 | When they come together, it's like 50

02:01:05.720 | between the two of them.

02:01:06.560 | There's like this synergistic effect

02:01:07.960 | when humans work together that the sum is greater

02:01:11.320 | than all the individual parts or whatever.

02:01:12.720 | There's like an emergent thing that happens there.

02:01:14.640 | - There's a capacity, there's a possibility of that.

02:01:17.200 | - Yeah, a possibility, sure.

02:01:18.320 | Things could go really wrong.

02:01:19.400 | There could be a cannibalistic tribe

02:01:20.600 | that all eats each other, sure.

02:01:21.960 | But for the purpose of this--

02:01:23.120 | - There's other failure modes, but yes.

02:01:25.120 | - Okay, sure, yeah.

02:01:26.680 | But I think broadly speaking,

02:01:28.720 | are you gonna be the well actually guy?

02:01:30.280 | Okay, if you wanna, okay.

02:01:31.320 | - Well actually.

02:01:32.160 | - Well actually, sometimes--

02:01:33.000 | - Sometimes cannibalism is actually good for both.

02:01:36.080 | - True, yeah, sometimes things do go wrong.

02:01:37.960 | But I think broadly speaking,

02:01:39.080 | the fact that you're sitting here in clothing

02:01:40.920 | that you didn't make and I'm sitting here

02:01:42.320 | on an airplane that I don't know how to fly or build.

02:01:45.000 | There's a lot of cool stuff that happens

02:01:46.440 | when people come together and they make civilizations.

02:01:49.800 | And part of that civilization building

02:01:52.620 | is the fact that we can specialize

02:01:54.960 | and it's the fact that we can offload

02:01:57.000 | a bunch of trust onto third parties

02:01:59.520 | that we delegate the power to make important decisions

02:02:02.680 | about our lives, right?

02:02:03.960 | I don't know anything about how to build

02:02:06.880 | like a combustion engine,

02:02:08.320 | but I know that when I push the button on my car,

02:02:09.800 | it's gonna drive around and the fumes aren't gonna kill me

02:02:12.180 | and I can park it in garages

02:02:13.440 | and the building's not gonna collapse.

02:02:14.720 | And the only reason all of this works

02:02:16.440 | is because I've offloaded a lot of trust

02:02:17.880 | onto these third party things.

02:02:19.600 | And I would say that the pillars

02:02:20.820 | of these third party things that society is built on

02:02:22.860 | are roughly speaking institutions.

02:02:25.360 | So that might be the institution of peer review

02:02:27.940 | for scientific articles.

02:02:29.740 | It might be the institution of voting for government, right?

02:02:33.700 | Or the ability for us to vote in that whole process.

02:02:37.020 | It might, yeah, the FDA,

02:02:38.420 | like all of these institutions are things

02:02:39.760 | that they need to exist because we don't have the time

02:02:42.880 | or the capability to individually sort

02:02:44.820 | through all of these things individually.

02:02:47.100 | We have to rely on some third party to do it.

02:02:49.660 | - Okay, so you believe at scale,

02:02:53.800 | when we're together, we're greater

02:02:55.800 | than the sum of our parts.

02:02:57.040 | That's the case for institutions.

02:02:58.680 | - Absolutely.

02:02:59.600 | - What about the inefficiencies of bureaucracy?

02:03:02.800 | Is there some aspect when at scale,

02:03:05.440 | different dynamics come into play

02:03:07.980 | than they do when there's two people together?

02:03:10.160 | Two people that love each other, the birds and the bees.

02:03:13.400 | Is there some aspect that leads more

02:03:15.520 | to cannibalism at scale?

02:03:17.240 | So like corruption, inefficiencies

02:03:19.200 | that due to bureaucracy and so on.

02:03:21.220 | - Bureaucracy, which is not,

02:03:23.500 | I hate it when people try to say bureaucracy is government

02:03:26.020 | because bureaucracy exists a ton

02:03:27.620 | in private environments as well, right?

02:03:29.220 | In businesses and everything.

02:03:30.660 | Bureaucracy introduces its own set of problems,

02:03:33.460 | but I mean, a bureaucracy is necessary

02:03:35.700 | because it's coordinating all of the underlying things

02:03:38.220 | in order to create something that's greater

02:03:40.300 | than the sum of its parts, right?

02:03:42.280 | Like all of the software developers in the world

02:03:44.620 | are useless without being paired with good designers

02:03:46.680 | in order to make their products usable by a person.

02:03:48.660 | And the coordination of those people

02:03:50.300 | and the coordination of increasingly more and more things

02:03:52.180 | necessitate some level of bureaucracy.

02:03:54.500 | I think we always say bureaucracy when it's like a bad,

02:03:57.100 | it's like a slur almost,

02:03:57.980 | like you're a bureaucrat, you're bureaucratic.

02:03:59.900 | The bureaucracy is slowing everything down.

02:04:01.140 | It's like, sure, the bureaucracy slows things down,

02:04:03.320 | but bureaucracy also gives us things like safe medicine

02:04:06.020 | and safe water to drink for most of the US

02:04:08.180 | or safe buildings to live in or safe cars to drive, so.

02:04:11.240 | - So the managers in institution

02:04:13.260 | versus like the software developers and the designers,

02:04:16.100 | the managers is the bureaucracy.

02:04:18.140 | The reason bureaucracy is used as a slur

02:04:21.260 | is that something about human nature

02:04:23.980 | leads to bureaucracy often growing,

02:04:27.420 | growing indefinitely.

02:04:30.300 | - Sometimes. - And becoming

02:04:31.140 | less and less efficient.

02:04:32.340 | Without, I mean, this is where capitalism can come in,

02:04:35.620 | that capitalism puts a pressure on the bureaucracy

02:04:39.620 | not to grow too much because you want the bureaucracy

02:04:43.180 | to be useful, but not large.

02:04:47.180 | - Yeah, to be a certain size, yeah, of course.

02:04:49.300 | - To be the minimum size to get the job done.

02:04:53.100 | And so capitalism provides that mechanism.

02:04:55.840 | Government does not always.

02:05:00.900 | And so that's the criticism of government,

02:05:02.660 | of institutions where it can grow

02:05:04.980 | without a significant mechanism that says,

02:05:07.540 | there's a cost to bureaucracy

02:05:09.340 | that's not being accounted for here.

02:05:11.140 | We're just paying for the increasing size of government

02:05:15.020 | without the benefit.

02:05:16.860 | - Yeah, government is a special institution

02:05:18.700 | because it doesn't have to show itself

02:05:20.500 | to be financially viable.

02:05:22.140 | And we kind of live in a capitalist economy

02:05:23.700 | where that's generally the case.

02:05:25.020 | So government gets its powers from votes from the people,

02:05:27.780 | which introduces a whole new set of possible positives

02:05:30.660 | and possible negatives, right?

02:05:32.180 | Having something, for instance,

02:05:33.340 | that gives food or shelter to homeless people,

02:05:35.900 | maybe you don't want that to have to run at a profit.

02:05:38.740 | But giving an organization that can self-justify

02:05:41.460 | its budgets perpetually and indefinitely growing,

02:05:43.660 | maybe that's not the best thing.

02:05:45.220 | Yeah, we always have to figure out

02:05:46.460 | how to do the constraints there.

02:05:48.220 | - What about the corrupting nature of power?

02:05:52.420 | That comes with institutions as well.

02:05:54.460 | - Absolutely.

02:05:55.300 | So then you better pick your style

02:05:57.300 | of institution very carefully.

02:05:58.780 | I think that the democratic institution

02:06:00.780 | we have in the United States today,

02:06:02.100 | I think works very well.

02:06:03.820 | But I mean, there are other styles of government

02:06:05.100 | that have been tried in the past

02:06:05.940 | that I think lend themselves more to corruption.

02:06:08.140 | Not to say that, by the way,

02:06:08.980 | there's not corruption in the United States.

02:06:10.260 | Of course, there's gonna be varying levels of corruption

02:06:12.420 | at like all levels.

02:06:15.060 | But you ran into this interesting problem

02:06:17.580 | where authoritarian regimes can act

02:06:20.100 | with ruthless precision and swiftness

02:06:22.580 | because they don't have to ask any questions.

02:06:24.060 | They just do, do, do, do, do, and that's it.

02:06:26.660 | But the problem is, it's an authoritarian regime.

02:06:28.820 | They're prone to missteps.

02:06:30.380 | They're slow to respond to changing or evolving needs.

02:06:33.420 | There was an interesting study that was put out a while ago

02:06:35.140 | that showed that every single famine

02:06:37.020 | that happened around the world,

02:06:38.100 | almost like 98% of them happened under authoritarian regimes

02:06:41.900 | where freedom of speech is very limited.

02:06:43.380 | It's very rare for a famine to happen under a democracy

02:06:46.300 | because press and everything

02:06:47.460 | makes the government more responsive

02:06:48.660 | to the needs of the people.

02:06:49.940 | Power can corrupt, there are levels of corruption,

02:06:51.880 | but you have to have like a system of checks and balances

02:06:53.900 | on all of those different levels

02:06:55.180 | to make sure it doesn't run off the rails, I guess,

02:06:57.060 | and do a sick loop-de-loop

02:06:58.180 | and half the population gets.

02:06:59.980 | - Nice callback.

02:07:01.820 | There's a lot of people that will listen to you

02:07:03.860 | say that the democracy in the United States

02:07:06.300 | is working pretty damn well

02:07:07.540 | and they will spit out the drink

02:07:09.540 | if they're drinking a drink and be very upset.

02:07:13.260 | Can you make the case that they're right and you're wrong?

02:07:16.220 | - Can I make the case-- - Can you steel man?

02:07:17.820 | - They're right, yeah.

02:07:18.660 | Well, the steel man for them

02:07:20.140 | is that people have a lot of problems on the day-to-day

02:07:22.660 | and when they look and they see what government is doing,

02:07:25.620 | they might see potholes outside their house,

02:07:29.020 | homeless people all over their downtown,

02:07:31.580 | and the United States just approved

02:07:33.120 | another X billion amount of dollars for Ukraine.

02:07:36.140 | Or they might be living in a city

02:07:37.980 | where half the factories are shut down,

02:07:39.960 | a lot of their people are out of work,

02:07:41.540 | but the president is on the TV talking about

02:07:43.780 | how to find jobs for immigrants coming in from Mexico.

02:07:46.460 | And for these people,

02:07:47.420 | they have problems that exist in their lives.

02:07:49.980 | Some of them are paying taxes to alleviate these problems.

02:07:52.700 | And then when they listen to the government talk,

02:07:55.340 | it feels like the government is not responding

02:07:56.860 | to the needs that they have.

02:07:58.260 | And then that's one problem.

02:07:59.540 | Then on top of that,

02:08:00.620 | you've got all of these people working in alternative media

02:08:02.580 | that can show you, well, look at this politician

02:08:04.180 | wasting this much money,

02:08:05.180 | or look at him double speaking here or there.

02:08:07.140 | Look at Hillary Clinton saying she's got a private position

02:08:09.300 | and a public position.

02:08:10.340 | Look at how all of these politicians have family members

02:08:12.720 | that are getting rich

02:08:13.560 | because of their relationships with people in Congress.

02:08:15.420 | Look at the revolving door

02:08:16.500 | between capitalist companies and the government.

02:08:19.420 | How can you look at all of that,

02:08:21.140 | take into account that the government's

02:08:22.140 | not responding to your needs,

02:08:23.380 | and then really feel like it's a government

02:08:25.000 | by the people and for the people?

02:08:26.260 | - Yeah, this was very good.

02:08:27.660 | Good steel, man, and good question.

02:08:30.360 | How can you?

02:08:31.200 | How can you tell that they're not just politicians

02:08:34.060 | that care more about continuously winning the elections

02:08:37.540 | versus running government effectively?

02:08:40.660 | - They should care about winning the elections.

02:08:41.980 | That's the first misconception.

02:08:43.060 | A lot of people say,

02:08:43.900 | "This guy only cares about getting voted in.

02:08:45.580 | "This guy, he doesn't even believe in fracking or abortion.

02:08:49.220 | "He just changes his opinion to get voted in."

02:08:51.160 | Anytime somebody says that, you should say,

02:08:52.940 | "That's really good."

02:08:53.940 | You want them to change their opinion so they get voted in.

02:08:55.820 | That's the whole point of a democracy.

02:08:57.220 | You don't want them to remain obstinate.

02:08:58.660 | You don't want them to say,

02:08:59.500 | "I'm not changing my opinion no matter what the people want."

02:09:00.860 | You want them to evolve and adopt new opinions

02:09:02.940 | based on what the population,

02:09:04.280 | their constituents are voting for.

02:09:05.500 | - Yeah, but the cynical take is that they're,

02:09:08.260 | on the surface, they're changing their opinion,

02:09:10.220 | but that there's a boys club, or boys means the elite,

02:09:13.420 | that under, in the smoke-filled rooms,

02:09:17.320 | in secret, they actually have their own agenda

02:09:20.540 | and they're following that agenda,

02:09:21.820 | and they're just saying anything publicly

02:09:24.180 | to placate the public based on whatever the new trends are.

02:09:29.180 | So here's-- - It's a cynical take

02:09:31.420 | upon the question. - Yeah, I understand.

02:09:33.100 | Somebody asked me this question and it flipped,

02:09:35.860 | I 180'd completely.

02:09:37.900 | I was a Bernie Sanders supporter in 2016,

02:09:39.580 | and my single issue voting thing was lobbying.

02:09:44.040 | I thought that lobbying, the government was corrupt,

02:09:45.780 | they weren't responding to the needs of people,

02:09:46.700 | it completely destroyed my faith in government and everything

02:09:50.420 | and I had one question posed to me by a conservative

02:09:52.660 | that used to come on my stream and shout at me,

02:09:53.700 | and he said, and then he asked me,

02:09:55.760 | "Can you think of any popular opinion

02:09:59.500 | "that the American public has

02:10:01.020 | "that the government is unresponsive to?

02:10:02.480 | "Is there some big piece of legislation

02:10:03.900 | "or policy or whatever that people want

02:10:05.660 | "that the government isn't doing?"

02:10:08.020 | And he asked me that, I couldn't think

02:10:09.460 | of a single good answer, and I'm like, oh, geez.

02:10:12.060 | - There's a good answer. - There's not.

02:10:13.260 | - Drugs. - There's not.

02:10:15.260 | - Legalization. - And that thing.

02:10:16.100 | - Legalization or drugs, hold on a sec.

02:10:17.740 | - Yeah, go for it. - All right, well--

02:10:18.700 | - Oh, shoot, you're doing the Joe Rogan thing,

02:10:20.140 | you're pushing back 'cause I brought up weed, go ahead.

02:10:23.180 | I'm sorry. - I have become meme.

02:10:25.600 | I don't even, I don't wanna interrupt your--

02:10:30.340 | - No, you're good. - 'Cause there's

02:10:31.180 | memes upon memes upon memes I can go with here.

02:10:33.240 | But no, 'cause people bring up, okay, there's no issues,

02:10:37.160 | there's no issues that the government

02:10:38.480 | is not representing of the public.

02:10:40.880 | - So here's the issue, so somebody will bring up,

02:10:42.480 | like, well, what about the legalization of drugs, okay?

02:10:45.440 | The first issue people have is, one,

02:10:46.960 | they look at national polling.

02:10:48.580 | Very few things are decided on a national level,

02:10:50.920 | so that's the first huge mistake.

02:10:52.760 | Arguably, a lot of BLM made mistakes in this arena

02:10:55.800 | where they're saying, like, why isn't the government

02:10:57.280 | doing anything about policing?

02:10:58.720 | Federal government can't do anything about policing,

02:11:00.040 | that's gonna be your, sometimes it's gonna be your state,

02:11:01.720 | sometimes it's your local city government.

02:11:03.080 | The people that like your chief of police,

02:11:05.140 | your police commissioner, that's coming from your mayor.

02:11:08.260 | So you've got people looking, one,

02:11:09.900 | at the wrong parts of the government

02:11:11.340 | to even figure out the solution to the problem.

02:11:12.760 | Two, oftentimes for polling, the questions are vague enough

02:11:16.980 | that you can poll very high, but when you get into

02:11:18.860 | the weeds on things, no pun intended,

02:11:21.140 | you start to realize, like, oh, shoot,

02:11:23.020 | this is more complicated than I thought.

02:11:24.540 | I don't know the numbers in particular

02:11:25.940 | for legalization of marijuana,

02:11:27.780 | but this is what I'm gonna guess is the case.

02:11:29.220 | If you poll and you say, should we legalize marijuana,

02:11:32.380 | that number might poll at like 65, 70%,

02:11:36.260 | but that's including people

02:11:37.100 | that are in favor of medical marijuana.

02:11:38.500 | If you were to poll, like, should we decriminalize

02:11:42.260 | recreational use of marijuana,

02:11:43.980 | that number might drop to like 52%.

02:11:46.180 | And then if you poll, like, should we completely legalize,

02:11:48.580 | not just decriminalize, but completely legalize

02:11:50.060 | recreational use of marijuana,

02:11:51.260 | that number might drop to like 40%.

02:11:53.020 | There's like all these different ways

02:11:54.140 | you can poll around issues where people are like,

02:11:55.300 | oh no, we broadly agree on this topic,

02:11:57.700 | but when you really figure out, well, do you,

02:11:59.040 | do we really agree, or is there just like broad consensus

02:12:01.260 | around a thing that's never gonna show up,

02:12:02.460 | like in a piece of legislation?

02:12:03.980 | A really good example, one example I do know

02:12:05.500 | was socialized healthcare.

02:12:07.240 | I think if you poll, there was a time a few years ago

02:12:10.020 | where if you poll America,

02:12:11.540 | do you think every American citizen should have access

02:12:14.060 | to like free healthcare?

02:12:15.840 | I think that answer, that poll, like 74% yes.

02:12:19.420 | But when you asked, should the government

02:12:21.340 | be the sole provider of healthcare,

02:12:22.980 | it dropped to like 26%, dropped 50 points.

02:12:26.300 | And you could see it was both asking questions

02:12:28.060 | about single payer, but the way that it was asked

02:12:29.980 | was so different that even if you all,

02:12:31.680 | looks like there's consensus,

02:12:33.080 | there's not nearly as much consensus

02:12:34.480 | as people think around certain ideas.

02:12:36.660 | Yeah, go, we can argue any political--

02:12:37.500 | - You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

02:12:40.920 | That polls, the way you ask the polls really matters.

02:12:44.560 | When you ask, should the government be in charge of a thing,

02:12:47.440 | that also biases the answer, right?

02:12:50.360 | Like, because there's such a negative experience

02:12:54.040 | with government creating a .gov site that runs the thing.

02:12:57.160 | But sometimes.

02:12:58.500 | - Sometimes.

02:12:59.340 | I think if you dig in, if you have a one hour conversation

02:13:02.580 | with each individual citizen,

02:13:04.240 | - Sure.

02:13:05.200 | - I think you will understand that yes,

02:13:07.060 | there is support for socialized medicine.

02:13:09.360 | Like it's not--

02:13:10.460 | - The argument has to be made though, yeah.

02:13:12.660 | - What do you mean, the argument has to be made?

02:13:14.060 | - Like if you just ask a conservative,

02:13:15.520 | like what about single payer?

02:13:16.620 | They're gonna tell you no.

02:13:17.540 | You might be able to build up to an argument for it,

02:13:19.260 | but you're gonna have to make the case for it.

02:13:20.660 | - No, but I thought we're talking about

02:13:23.280 | the feeling deep inside your mind and heart,

02:13:26.380 | does the government represent that?

02:13:28.300 | - Oh.

02:13:29.140 | - So it's not like some shallow,

02:13:31.260 | surface layer public opinion.

02:13:34.300 | Does the government effectively represent

02:13:36.940 | what the people want?

02:13:38.760 | Not a shallow survey, but deeply what they want.

02:13:41.940 | I'm not actually that familiar

02:13:43.340 | with the debates over healthcare,

02:13:45.100 | but let's maybe look at an easier one.

02:13:47.300 | - Sure.

02:13:48.140 | - Maybe you'll say it's harder, war.

02:13:50.420 | - War is a really good example where the government

02:13:52.460 | was very responsive, I think, to the people.

02:13:55.060 | - You think so?

02:13:55.900 | - So Iraq, Afghanistan,

02:13:58.420 | the government didn't manipulate public opinion.

02:14:01.980 | - There's an argument to be made that they did

02:14:04.340 | in terms of like WMD and everything,

02:14:06.180 | but after 9/11, were you in the United States after 9/11?

02:14:09.500 | After 9/11, I legitimately--

02:14:11.180 | - That seems accusatory.

02:14:12.460 | Like where were you on 9/11?

02:14:13.860 | (laughing)

02:14:15.460 | - Just checking, okay?

02:14:16.300 | - All right, cool.

02:14:17.540 | I have evidence and witnesses.

02:14:20.220 | No, okay, all right.

02:14:21.060 | I'm very defensive right now.

02:14:22.820 | It's very strange.

02:14:23.780 | Look into it.

02:14:25.420 | - Al Jones.

02:14:26.260 | - Yeah, but I think after 9/11,

02:14:27.540 | we could have gone to war with any country in the world.

02:14:30.980 | We were ready because all of America was like, oh my God,

02:14:33.900 | and they pointed to Iraq,

02:14:35.180 | and the reasons for the WMDs was kind of dumb,

02:14:37.800 | but I don't think we even needed WMDs to go to Iraq.

02:14:39.940 | We could have just said Saddam Hussein

02:14:41.700 | was giving medical aid to Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Iraq, let's go,

02:14:45.140 | and we would have gone for it.

02:14:46.620 | But post-Iraq, Iraq was for a while popular

02:14:50.140 | and then became obviously deeply unpopular,

02:14:52.060 | Iraq and Afghanistan,

02:14:53.300 | and I think you could see that influence

02:14:54.740 | in other foreign policy that the United States had.

02:14:56.700 | For instance, we opted more towards drone warfare

02:14:59.420 | than troops on the ground for places like Yemen.

02:15:01.900 | We opted more towards sending money and help

02:15:04.180 | instead of boots on the ground for places like Syria,

02:15:06.660 | and I think that a lot of that was kind of in response

02:15:08.860 | to how unpopular the Iraq stuff had became.

02:15:11.380 | And when you looked at a lot of elections afterwards,

02:15:13.220 | even for Obama,

02:15:14.820 | one of the defining characteristics of a lot of campaigns

02:15:17.200 | were like, I'm gonna close Guantanamo Bay,

02:15:19.080 | I'm gonna get us out of foreign wars, even up to Trump.

02:15:21.420 | I'm going into, I'm not gonna stop

02:15:23.340 | doing all this weird stuff in the Middle East.

02:15:25.060 | - But they didn't still withdraw from Afghanistan.

02:15:27.060 | - They didn't withdraw, but they definitely tapered off

02:15:29.420 | and weren't as aggressively pushing those types of conflicts

02:15:31.940 | 'cause they knew it was unpopular.

02:15:33.020 | - But I think if you also consider perfect information

02:15:36.460 | or good information, if you ask a lot of people,

02:15:40.100 | are you okay spending this amount of money for this purpose,

02:15:45.980 | so a military conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan,

02:15:48.420 | I think almost from the very beginning, they would say no.

02:15:51.500 | - After 9/11, I feel like--

02:15:52.700 | - Maybe like a few days after 9/11.

02:15:54.700 | - I remember Freedom Prize.

02:15:56.900 | We were so mad at--

02:15:58.220 | - There's some memes and so on, yes.

02:15:59.820 | But the nature of the public support for the war,

02:16:02.960 | was there public support in 2003,

02:16:06.660 | which is when the invasion happened?

02:16:08.940 | - I feel like initially there was a lot.

02:16:10.300 | I remember seeing it on,

02:16:11.120 | but then I also lived in a Republican household

02:16:12.540 | and I was not very media savvy at the time.

02:16:14.100 | So my parents--

02:16:14.940 | - And I don't know if the nature of that public support

02:16:16.260 | had to do with WMDs or with 9/11.

02:16:19.400 | 'Cause the weird--

02:16:20.240 | - It became about WMDs.

02:16:21.660 | - But I wonder what is the,

02:16:23.060 | if you were to poll people and let's say hypothetically,

02:16:26.360 | there was above 50% support for the war,

02:16:29.300 | what would be the nature of that support?

02:16:31.700 | And to what degree is the government

02:16:34.460 | actually representing the will of the people

02:16:37.240 | versus some complex mechanism

02:16:41.020 | like the military industrial complex

02:16:43.080 | is manipulating the narrative

02:16:44.700 | that's controlling public opinion?

02:16:47.240 | And then there's the media that gets a lot of attention

02:16:51.380 | by being divided in how they're shaping the narrative

02:16:54.820 | through the mechanism of division.

02:16:56.900 | So what--

02:16:58.180 | - There's a lot of complicated things out there.

02:16:59.900 | It's not just like the people and then the government.

02:17:02.040 | And that's, yeah, for sure I agree

02:17:03.700 | that there are gonna be different elements at play.

02:17:05.580 | - And how much of those elements that lead us astray

02:17:10.420 | can be attributed to the largeness

02:17:12.700 | of the different systems and the different institutions,

02:17:16.660 | like the media institutions and government.

02:17:21.180 | The institutions that have a monopoly on violence,

02:17:23.700 | let's put it this way,

02:17:24.780 | which is one way to define government.

02:17:26.940 | - Sure, it's complicated.

02:17:28.860 | There's definitely gonna be different institutions at play.

02:17:30.980 | But I think that like,

02:17:32.580 | all I would say is like in reverence to my original point,

02:17:34.660 | when there becomes like broad consensus around a thing,

02:17:37.300 | I think the government will usually follow.

02:17:38.780 | It's not gonna fight.

02:17:39.620 | It's gonna follow more often than not.

02:17:41.980 | But I think that a lot of times I think Americans

02:17:44.180 | think that there's more consensus around certain issues

02:17:46.660 | than there actually are.

02:17:48.100 | So like a really good example,

02:17:48.940 | we're on that war point too.

02:17:51.340 | What caused like the lowest dip in Biden's approval rating?

02:17:55.420 | I'm pretty sure it was right after

02:17:56.460 | we pulled out of Afghanistan,

02:17:58.060 | which I think if I would have asked people like a year before

02:18:01.580 | like, let's assume that we could pull out of Afghanistan.

02:18:04.780 | The government's probably gonna collapse after we leave

02:18:06.580 | because they just don't have the will to fight.

02:18:08.020 | They don't have the support, they don't, whatever.

02:18:09.220 | That's just not gonna work.

02:18:10.180 | But like no Americans are gonna die.

02:18:12.100 | There might be a couple of other people,

02:18:12.940 | but like no Americans are gonna die

02:18:13.780 | when we get out of Afghanistan.

02:18:14.620 | Would you support that?

02:18:15.460 | I think broadly speaking,

02:18:17.100 | I think like more than 60 or 70% of Americans are like,

02:18:19.900 | "Yeah, that would be fine."

02:18:21.260 | But then when it actually plays on TV,

02:18:22.780 | when we see the people hanging onto the planes,

02:18:24.260 | when we see like helicopter embassies,

02:18:26.100 | some of the courts and politicians,

02:18:27.460 | well now it's like, "Oh my God, this was horrible

02:18:29.180 | and it was so botched and it was so like,

02:18:30.860 | it could have gone so much better."

02:18:31.700 | It's like, "Well, could it have gone better?"

02:18:32.740 | Like maybe, maybe not.

02:18:34.100 | But I mean, it seems like you can have consensus

02:18:36.540 | around a certain opinion,

02:18:37.580 | but the way that things play out

02:18:39.580 | and the way that people actually feel,

02:18:41.060 | it's actually way, way, way more complicated

02:18:43.260 | and there's not usually this broad consensus opinion.

02:18:46.460 | All right, yeah, go ahead.

02:18:47.300 | - I'd like to believe that.

02:18:48.340 | I mean, just to lay my cards on the table,

02:18:52.100 | I have faith in the power of effective government.

02:18:58.900 | I just have a lot of concern about what happens

02:19:05.100 | as institutions grow in size.

02:19:07.540 | - For sure.

02:19:08.380 | - And I just have a lot of worry

02:19:09.420 | about the natural corrupting influence on the individuals

02:19:13.420 | and on the system as a whole,

02:19:15.660 | like the boys club nature of it.

02:19:17.820 | I don't know, there must be a better term,

02:19:19.420 | but basically they agree to the game

02:19:22.420 | and they play the game

02:19:23.460 | and there's a generational aspect, momentum to the game.

02:19:27.940 | And they more and more stop being responsive

02:19:30.300 | to the people that they represent.

02:19:32.860 | I just feel like there is that mechanism.

02:19:35.060 | And I think the nice thing,

02:19:37.740 | democracy elections are resistance

02:19:40.340 | to that natural human mechanism.

02:19:41.980 | Also the balances of power

02:19:44.220 | is a resistance to that mechanism.

02:19:46.020 | In some ways, the media that reveals the bullshit

02:19:48.740 | of politicians is also a resistance to that mechanism.

02:19:52.300 | It's hard to be full of shit as a politician

02:19:54.780 | 'cause people will try to catch you on it.

02:19:56.620 | So there's a honesty method there that keeps you honest.

02:20:00.940 | It's to some degree, but it still feels like,

02:20:04.480 | it still feels like politicians are gonna politician.

02:20:10.380 | - Yeah, they definitely play their games.

02:20:12.020 | That is true.

02:20:13.300 | There's probably always gonna be that meta narrative

02:20:15.620 | over like governance that just develops

02:20:18.500 | as like you have to form relationships and play games

02:20:20.860 | to get legislation passed and everything.

02:20:22.980 | The only reason why I don't like it

02:20:24.860 | when people attack institutions is because one,

02:20:27.240 | institutions are incredibly important, arguably paramount.

02:20:29.860 | No, they are to keeping society running.

02:20:32.020 | And two, I think sometimes when we shift the blame

02:20:34.420 | onto institutions too much,

02:20:36.240 | I think that we lose sight of what the real problems are.

02:20:38.540 | So for instance, in the United States today,

02:20:40.860 | people might be very critical of the government

02:20:42.540 | not getting much done,

02:20:44.060 | but then everybody turns their eyes to the government

02:20:45.780 | for being ineffective.

02:20:47.100 | But what I would argue is I would say the government

02:20:48.860 | is actually incredibly effective

02:20:51.060 | and it's showcasing the will of the American people

02:20:53.180 | really well right now,

02:20:54.140 | which is we are historically more divided

02:20:56.460 | than we have ever been.

02:20:57.900 | And if I were to just look at the people

02:20:59.360 | and I were to say, we have a historic divide

02:21:01.940 | that is getting like rapidly blown apart

02:21:04.220 | by things like the internet and the media, right?

02:21:06.180 | If that exists, well, what would I expect

02:21:07.580 | that government to look like?

02:21:08.700 | I wouldn't expect the government

02:21:09.540 | to be governing very effective.

02:21:10.620 | I would expect that government to show

02:21:12.300 | that legitimate divide in people.

02:21:14.420 | - Do you think that divide,

02:21:15.740 | we have a perception of a large divide

02:21:18.140 | between left and right.

02:21:19.940 | Do you think that's a real divide that's in this country?

02:21:22.220 | - Narrow the language.

02:21:23.140 | What do you mean by real divide?

02:21:25.420 | - Do you think there is that divide in ideology,

02:21:28.420 | that there's a large number of people

02:21:29.500 | that believe a certain set of policies

02:21:30.980 | and the different set of policies?

02:21:32.940 | Or is it just the perception on Twitter?

02:21:35.660 | - No, I think there is a large divide in terms of belief.

02:21:37.660 | I don't think there's very much divide between any people

02:21:39.660 | in terms of like what they,

02:21:40.860 | like on the most fundamental levels want

02:21:43.140 | in terms of like human beings.

02:21:44.500 | But in terms of like Democrat versus Republican right now,

02:21:46.860 | I think there is a huge divide

02:21:48.460 | in terms of the direction they wanna see the country go

02:21:50.460 | and what they believe really

02:21:51.860 | and what they even believe is reality, right?

02:21:53.500 | Unfortunately, that's where we've gotten to.

02:21:55.940 | - Can I just speak about the mechanism

02:21:57.380 | of the left and right here,

02:21:58.980 | maybe on the mimetic rivalry aspect?

02:22:01.780 | Is there some aspect to the left

02:22:03.740 | on which you're a part of that attacks their own

02:22:06.180 | for ideological impurity more than the right does?

02:22:10.560 | Is it the bigotry of small differences?

02:22:12.780 | There's a concept where when you're near somebody

02:22:17.260 | who is very slightly different than you,

02:22:18.620 | you wanna destroy it.

02:22:19.620 | But when you're with somebody

02:22:20.460 | that's way different than you, you don't.

02:22:22.420 | I think the left does it,

02:22:24.460 | but I think the right does it too.

02:22:25.620 | I didn't realize it until I started dipping more

02:22:27.200 | into conservative communities, but oh my God,

02:22:29.420 | the people from the Daily Wire

02:22:30.660 | and the people from Turning Point and the America First,

02:22:33.620 | but all these different groups of people hate each other

02:22:36.100 | and they fight each other so much.

02:22:37.380 | They hire and fire sometimes employees.

02:22:39.540 | They talk smack about each other.

02:22:41.720 | I think there's a lot of political division

02:22:42.920 | between both sides.

02:22:43.760 | I think that the left just kind of gets highlighted more

02:22:45.840 | because it's like the internet

02:22:46.760 | and a lot of the internet spaces

02:22:47.920 | have a lot of left-leaning people.

02:22:48.960 | So you see like the crazy communists

02:22:50.640 | and the crazy progressives

02:22:52.080 | and the crazy center-left liberals

02:22:53.840 | and the crazy blah, blah, blah.

02:22:54.960 | Whereas like a lot of the right-leaning people

02:22:56.240 | have kind of been pushed off of the main areas

02:22:58.160 | of the internet now.

02:22:59.520 | - Interesting.

02:23:00.360 | My sense was that it's hard to exist on the center-left,

02:23:04.000 | but maybe because I just don't have the full spectrum view

02:23:07.600 | of the political divide.

02:23:08.600 | It felt like center-left is a difficult position

02:23:10.660 | to occupy.

02:23:11.500 | - Yeah, I would definitely say so, yeah.

02:23:12.820 | - I don't know if it's that difficult to be center-right.

02:23:15.420 | - It's very difficult to be center-right.

02:23:17.180 | I think actually maybe even more difficult

02:23:19.460 | because a center-right person might be somebody

02:23:21.180 | who's like conservative, but not a fan of Trump.

02:23:24.060 | And you're like over.

02:23:25.940 | Like look at like Liz Cheney, right?

02:23:27.220 | You've had politicians that are just like,

02:23:28.780 | they didn't back the Trump stuff and now they're gone.

02:23:30.540 | Or you might be like center-right,

02:23:32.020 | but like you don't think the election was stolen.

02:23:33.900 | And now you're like half the Republican Party

02:23:36.180 | is looking at you like you're crazy, you know?

02:23:38.380 | - That's true, that's true.

02:23:39.440 | I think there's a Ben Shapiro, who I'm talking with,

02:23:42.920 | I think he publicly spoke against Trump, right?

02:23:46.360 | - He did initially, but I felt like he softened

02:23:47.920 | his language up on him pretty significantly.

02:23:49.760 | - So there's a significant pressure to kind of

02:23:51.960 | cop out a certain kind of messaging.

02:23:53.880 | - Which the whole Republican Party is feeling right now.

02:23:55.960 | Geez, two years from now, that election is gonna be insane.

02:23:59.280 | - It's just hard, okay.

02:24:00.200 | So to generalize, it's hard to be in the center,

02:24:02.360 | it feels like.

02:24:03.200 | - For sure.

02:24:04.020 | - To center and then like do like a random walk

02:24:08.000 | among the policies around that.

02:24:10.400 | I don't know what that mechanism is.

02:24:12.120 | I mean, it makes people like me not feel good

02:24:15.880 | being in the center.

02:24:17.360 | It seems like people are just not nice

02:24:19.480 | to people in the center.

02:24:21.000 | Like the public, the Twitter machine is not nice

02:24:24.960 | to the people who are open-minded in the center.

02:24:27.760 | Is there some truth to that?

02:24:29.420 | - Two reasons for that.

02:24:30.560 | One is because I think a lot of people

02:24:32.080 | that market themselves as center

02:24:33.440 | are legitimately spineless cowards

02:24:35.420 | and deserve to be called out.

02:24:37.880 | I've never killed a man, but today might be my first.

02:24:40.720 | - Oh no.

02:24:41.560 | - Like I told you, I'll take over your stream.

02:24:45.520 | - With AI, we'll see.

02:24:47.280 | Is that guy gonna be streaming in the background?

02:24:48.960 | - Hey fellas.

02:24:49.800 | - Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

02:24:53.720 | Lots of gotchas, lots of gotchas.

02:24:55.160 | Okay, gotcha.

02:24:56.480 | - And decrease the amount,

02:24:57.720 | which already is a pretty low level of emotion.

02:25:01.200 | Just decrease it completely.

02:25:02.700 | When people are screaming at you and accusing stuff,

02:25:05.960 | just remain calm.

02:25:07.320 | - Absolutely.

02:25:08.160 | - Emotionless.

02:25:08.980 | - The gaslighter strategy.

02:25:10.000 | - Yeah.

02:25:10.840 | Okay, so what were we talking about?

02:25:12.400 | So I don't--

02:25:14.600 | - I don't even, I don't ever identify as center anything

02:25:16.720 | because it's got such a bad reputation because--

02:25:18.360 | - Fuck that, I stand center with a spine.

02:25:22.040 | It's called being open-minded.

02:25:23.320 | And it's not center left and right, those are just labels.

02:25:26.280 | - Here's a really good quote my mom said to me

02:25:28.240 | when I was really young.

02:25:29.080 | She said, "Stevie, don't ever let your mind be so open

02:25:31.560 | "that your brain falls out."

02:25:32.960 | And that's what I find that a lot of center people do.

02:25:34.800 | - That's not what she told me last night.

02:25:36.920 | Why are you like this?

02:25:38.080 | (laughing)

02:25:39.480 | - I'm sorry, man.

02:25:40.680 | - Okay, I'm glad I can bring that.

02:25:42.560 | I'm glad you feel like this is a safe space.

02:25:43.760 | Like I said, people, non-judgmental.

02:25:45.360 | If you wanna talk about fucking my mom,

02:25:46.640 | you know what, you're totally within your rights.

02:25:48.040 | - I didn't say that, you said that.

02:25:49.400 | - That's totally great, I support that.

02:25:50.960 | She's a beautiful woman.

02:25:52.240 | Her husband probably wouldn't be too happy about it,

02:25:53.580 | but you know.

02:25:54.560 | - I didn't say there was any sexual relations.

02:25:56.520 | It was just that having a conversation with her.

02:25:59.120 | You projected that, that says more about you than me.

02:26:02.040 | Anyway, go ahead about spineless center.

02:26:04.480 | - Spineless center.

02:26:05.720 | There is some aspect to that which is amorphous.

02:26:09.040 | To me, center means you think freely

02:26:13.080 | about each individual policy without being stuck to a--

02:26:16.320 | - Some ideal, yeah, but a lot of people don't do that.

02:26:18.240 | They call themselves centrist,

02:26:19.320 | but then they're anti-establishment,

02:26:21.020 | essentially, on everything.

02:26:22.320 | I don't know your position on the vaccines or anything,

02:26:25.520 | but I met a lot of free and open thinkers

02:26:27.400 | who were like, you know what, I am open to everything,

02:26:29.640 | and it's an experimental vaccine,

02:26:31.040 | and I'm gonna eat hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin

02:26:33.160 | because that's what the institutions

02:26:34.360 | are telling me not to take,

02:26:35.560 | and I think Fauci got too much money from that company,

02:26:37.960 | and these are, but I'm an open thinker,

02:26:39.560 | and what open thinker becomes--

02:26:41.160 | - I'm at MIT.

02:26:42.000 | What do you think my position on vaccines is exactly?

02:26:44.640 | - I hear a lot of crazy things from a lot of people, okay?

02:26:46.200 | You might be from MIT, but I know you from the internet,

02:26:48.240 | okay, and people from the internet are weird and crazy, so.

02:26:50.560 | - Yeah. (laughs)

02:26:51.880 | Well, I-- - Who knows?

02:26:53.640 | - I don't like arrogance,

02:26:55.000 | and I have criticized scientists during COVID,

02:26:58.480 | a lot of people, but scientists included,

02:27:00.200 | having arrogance. - Which is fair.

02:27:01.960 | - But-- - And I think there's

02:27:03.160 | a lot of good criticism to be made

02:27:05.400 | of different scientific and medical establishments

02:27:08.520 | over a lot of stuff,

02:27:10.460 | but nobody can make those good criticisms

02:27:12.560 | because they're too obsessed

02:27:14.240 | over just trying to have the anti-establishment answer,

02:27:17.360 | and that is what is upsetting me the most.

02:27:19.440 | I think there are good conversations to be had

02:27:22.160 | about a lot of stuff related to

02:27:24.280 | how we handled the coronavirus.

02:27:26.120 | Were lockdowns effective?

02:27:27.240 | Was there enough data to support the huge measures we took?

02:27:30.920 | Why didn't we have the option to show,

02:27:33.040 | I was infected a month ago,

02:27:34.440 | why do I need to be vaccinated?

02:27:35.720 | Why wasn't that option ever a thing in the United States?

02:27:37.320 | I don't think it was.

02:27:38.440 | There are really good questions to be asked there,

02:27:41.120 | but all the people asking the questions

02:27:42.800 | are also trying to tell you that ivermectin

02:27:44.320 | and monoclonal antibodies are the way to go for everything,

02:27:46.600 | and the vaccine is evil,

02:27:47.840 | and it's gonna turn you gay like the frogs,

02:27:49.600 | and it's like, Jesus,

02:27:51.400 | there's no place to reasonably criticize from

02:27:54.240 | because all of the people that are criticizing

02:27:55.940 | aren't doing it with an open mind,

02:27:57.360 | or they're not reading studies or doing anything.

02:27:59.800 | They're saying, "I do my own research,"

02:28:01.060 | which means they listened to

02:28:02.360 | whatever the last guy on Joe Rogan said,

02:28:03.640 | and now they are parroting that opinion 100%.

02:28:05.040 | - Easy now, easy now, bros.

02:28:06.680 | - The last guy on Joe Rogan, not Joe Rogan, okay.

02:28:08.200 | That Robert Malone guy on Joe Rogan

02:28:09.800 | got me real fired up. - That's one guest.

02:28:11.320 | - People see him as the father of mRNA technology.

02:28:14.320 | He published one paper, okay?

02:28:16.080 | - What do you mean people?

02:28:17.200 | Which people think that?

02:28:19.080 | - Joe Rogan fans.

02:28:19.920 | I run into these people.

02:28:21.400 | I start arguing with people,

02:28:22.220 | and they start saying to me, "Well, what about--"

02:28:23.060 | - I'm a Joe Rogan fan, and I appreciate the vaccine.

02:28:26.560 | - That's good, I'm glad you do.

02:28:27.760 | But there's definitely--

02:28:28.600 | - Sorry, but you said there's a type.

02:28:30.960 | What's the type of Joe Rogan fan?

02:28:33.120 | - Anti-establishment.

02:28:34.880 | - I think that's not Joe Rogan.

02:28:36.040 | That's a general public discourse.

02:28:37.960 | There's a default anti-establishment.

02:28:40.680 | On the right and the left,

02:28:42.440 | that's the default easy thing to go to.

02:28:45.160 | - I think Joe Rogan fans are definitely

02:28:46.360 | a certain type of anti-establishment, though.

02:28:48.280 | Like, I could guess the Joe Rogan fan.

02:28:50.280 | Like, if I were to do general population

02:28:52.240 | versus Joe Rogan fan,

02:28:53.080 | who do you think is more likely to be anti-vaccine?

02:28:55.640 | - Do you have data on this?

02:28:57.280 | Or are you just guessing? - You're gonna do that to me?

02:28:58.520 | - Yeah. - Just guessing.

02:28:59.480 | - Yeah, I think you are actually judging.

02:29:01.720 | - I am, yeah.

02:29:02.540 | - You're judging.

02:29:03.380 | 'Cause I think you're also,

02:29:04.920 | the beautiful thing about podcasting,

02:29:08.000 | this could be similar to streaming,

02:29:09.520 | is there's a large number of people that just listen.

02:29:13.000 | Like, what does it mean to be a Joe Rogan fan?

02:29:15.560 | - I don't think you just listen.

02:29:16.600 | I think people listen and absorb the information.

02:29:19.360 | - I would say that the Joe Rogan fan base

02:29:21.640 | is as divided in the vaccine as the general public.

02:29:24.600 | - Gotcha.

02:29:25.440 | Man, I'm gonna look for polling data on that.

02:29:26.800 | I'm sure somebody's gotta have done it out there, but--

02:29:28.760 | - No, but you're basically revealing

02:29:30.720 | the fact they have no data.

02:29:31.760 | You're using your own judgment.

02:29:33.200 | - For sure.

02:29:34.400 | Based on how he's had conversations

02:29:35.880 | about his experience with the coronavirus,

02:29:37.720 | and then based on the guests that have come on

02:29:39.760 | that have talked and echoed a lot of anti-vax talking points

02:29:42.200 | and been completely unchallenged,

02:29:43.720 | and then based on statements he's made

02:29:45.240 | about myocarditis and the vaccine and everything as well.

02:29:47.960 | - So it's the level of challenge or not that he's doing.

02:29:50.840 | - Well, yeah, and then what his true positions are,

02:29:52.560 | and then the types of guests he typically chooses

02:29:54.280 | to bring on to talk about the vaccines, yeah.

02:29:56.080 | - Okay, but that represents somehow

02:29:58.300 | a deep anti-establishment feeling versus--

02:30:01.720 | - Versus just the vaccine.

02:30:02.760 | I mean, I've seen the vaccine and other things

02:30:04.600 | being a thing that broke people.

02:30:07.640 | They seem to-- - I think all the coronavirus,

02:30:08.800 | that whole one or two years broke a lot of people.

02:30:12.080 | - 'Cause there's a lot of emotion,

02:30:13.080 | and that emotion quickly solidified into an opinion

02:30:17.120 | that almost had nothing to do with thinking through

02:30:20.880 | and updating your knowledge and so on.

02:30:22.800 | You just made up your mind.

02:30:24.480 | - Yeah, but I think a lot of it comes

02:30:25.640 | from that anti-establishment place.

02:30:27.200 | The vaccine represents the ultimate of establishment.

02:30:30.340 | It was a huge private company

02:30:33.080 | backed by a huge public government,

02:30:36.200 | and there's Fauci, and there's Biden, and there's Pfizer,

02:30:40.080 | and there's all these countries locking us up in our homes,

02:30:42.480 | telling us to do a thing.

02:30:43.560 | The vaccine was the ultimate submission tool

02:30:47.280 | to show you that the government owns you.

02:30:48.800 | Not only do you have to get injected once, it's a series,

02:30:51.200 | and then you gotta get boosters,

02:30:52.480 | and it's like they're trying to keep you under their thumb,

02:30:54.040 | and that's the control.

02:30:55.800 | I feel like that vaccine

02:30:56.760 | became the ultimate rallying cry between,

02:30:58.440 | do you support, are you a sellout

02:30:59.920 | that is gonna believe whatever the government

02:31:01.520 | tells the sheep to take,

02:31:02.720 | or are you gonna be like the guy

02:31:03.720 | that stands against the crowd and gets fired from his job

02:31:06.600 | and pulls his kids from school

02:31:07.760 | because they're not gonna let the evil Fauci medicine

02:31:09.960 | jab them in the arm?

02:31:11.160 | - And the funny thing is the crowd that stands against

02:31:14.600 | the institution is not larger than the crowd of sheep.

02:31:18.120 | There's like one sheep standing there.

02:31:19.760 | - Sure, yeah, or it feels that way sometimes.

02:31:21.600 | - One vaccinated sheep.

02:31:23.280 | Well, okay, what's the defense of institutions?

02:31:26.080 | How do you regain the trust of institutions?

02:31:28.080 | Like, first of all, do you think that there's ways

02:31:31.200 | in which WHO, CDC failed,

02:31:34.800 | and do you think there's criticism towards Pfizer

02:31:37.600 | and the big pharma companies that's deserved?

02:31:40.080 | - Damn, it's the pharma companies, I'm not sure.

02:31:42.520 | For CDC and WHO, so here's a criticism that I have

02:31:45.640 | of all of academia,

02:31:47.080 | and I feel it stronger and stronger every day.

02:31:49.600 | I don't think it's enough to be a researcher

02:31:52.720 | or to be correct about issues.

02:31:54.440 | Academia needs to increase its ability to communicate.

02:31:58.560 | It is just an unbelievable, unmitigated failure

02:32:03.400 | that academics are unwilling to wade

02:32:06.080 | into the complicated topics that exist today

02:32:09.200 | because other people are, you know?

02:32:10.800 | - First you call me spineless,

02:32:12.320 | and then you call me a bad communicator.

02:32:14.280 | - But no, look, you're here, you're doing it,

02:32:15.360 | so you get props for me, okay?

02:32:16.600 | Good job.

02:32:17.440 | - That motherfucker.

02:32:18.280 | - But there are like so many, but I'm sure you've,

02:32:19.520 | I'm sure that you must have heard another fellow academic,

02:32:24.520 | a fellow colleague express some amount of frustration

02:32:27.680 | about like in their specific discipline,

02:32:30.320 | they know something to be true,

02:32:31.440 | and they know that like a lot of the messaging

02:32:33.320 | is like wrong or bad in the public about it,

02:32:35.120 | but they're never gonna step out and say anything

02:32:36.520 | because either one, they're very measured

02:32:38.400 | and careful with their tech,

02:32:39.280 | which they feel is incompatible

02:32:40.440 | with what people wanna hear,

02:32:41.560 | or two, they're really worried

02:32:43.280 | that they might be incorrect,

02:32:44.240 | so they're gonna be cautious

02:32:45.200 | while everybody else is going out

02:32:46.400 | and like hard-courting their--

02:32:47.360 | - And they also don't have the support of institutions

02:32:49.320 | for them to go out on a limb.

02:32:50.560 | - Yeah, that too.

02:32:51.400 | - So like to take risks, for example,

02:32:52.760 | I've heard that with lab leak theory.

02:32:55.880 | I've had a lot of biologists, virologists, friends

02:32:58.120 | that are like, yeah, it's obviously leaked from a lab.

02:33:01.520 | Like early on.

02:33:02.920 | - Oh, maybe, okay.

02:33:04.040 | We can fight over this one, but sorry, go ahead.

02:33:05.400 | - Let's fight.

02:33:06.240 | - No, no, keep talking.

02:33:07.080 | - We can fight over this.

02:33:07.900 | Well, like they, okay, I should sort of backstep

02:33:11.120 | and say like that's like you talk about shooting the shit,

02:33:13.680 | you haven't really investigated, but it's your gut.

02:33:15.960 | Like this doesn't make any sense.

02:33:17.680 | They would never say that publicly.

02:33:18.960 | - Of course.

02:33:19.920 | - Mostly because you're saying like what they would all say

02:33:23.320 | is like, we want to see data.

02:33:24.960 | - Yeah, which would be good, which is fine.

02:33:26.640 | - So they're going with like,

02:33:27.800 | like this is too many coincidences in the same place.

02:33:30.160 | That's the logic, but they don't want to say anything

02:33:32.860 | because there's no data.

02:33:33.720 | You need to have evidence.

02:33:34.880 | You need to have actual evidence

02:33:36.040 | to say one way or the other.

02:33:37.480 | There's that, but there's also just like you said,

02:33:40.140 | I mean, effective communication.

02:33:42.880 | You're a fan of Sean Carroll.

02:33:44.360 | - Oh, yes.

02:33:45.520 | He's like one of the only people in this whole planet

02:33:47.880 | that I like besides you.

02:33:49.000 | I love Sean Carroll.

02:33:50.480 | - Anytime Sean Carroll is brought up as evidence,

02:33:53.640 | there's a smile that comes over your face.

02:33:56.120 | - I love it.

02:33:56.960 | - Of like joy of like a little kid

02:33:58.800 | thinking about Santa Claus.

02:34:00.320 | Okay, I love Sean Carroll too.

02:34:01.800 | People should listen to this podcast.

02:34:02.920 | - I love Sean Carroll because I hate this divide

02:34:06.160 | between like you're either STEM

02:34:08.200 | or you're like philosophy, arts, and all that other stuff.

02:34:10.200 | And the two worlds kind of across.

02:34:11.200 | And I love that he was so good at physics,

02:34:13.180 | but like explores and pays attention

02:34:14.680 | to all of the like sociological stuff too.

02:34:16.520 | It's so rare to find that quality in a person.

02:34:18.480 | - He's legit one of the really, really, really

02:34:20.500 | special minds, but you don't have to be a Sean Carroll.

02:34:22.360 | You can be just a little better at educating.

02:34:24.720 | Another person in the medical and the health space

02:34:28.000 | is somebody named Andrew Huberman,

02:34:29.720 | a friend of mine from Stanford.

02:34:31.820 | He's an incredible educator.

02:34:33.920 | There's the kind of process in science

02:34:36.220 | they usually call like review or survey papers

02:34:38.720 | where you basically summarize all that's going on,

02:34:42.160 | integrate it, and like draw wisdom from it,

02:34:44.280 | and also project like where's the discipline headed.

02:34:47.080 | And Andrew does that basically on all these subcomponents

02:34:49.880 | of the different stuff going on in neuroscience,

02:34:52.520 | and biology, neurobiology, all of that.

02:34:54.440 | He's able to, he does a podcast called Huberman Lab

02:34:58.140 | where he just summarizes all and is able to explain

02:35:01.000 | like what does that actually mean for your life

02:35:04.240 | in terms of protocols of how to make your life better.

02:35:07.040 | I feel like people should be able to do that more and more.

02:35:09.360 | But with virology, and oh boy, that's a tricky one.

02:35:14.140 | That's a really tricky one.

02:35:15.600 | - I wish that people could have honest conversations.

02:35:18.080 | Like I attack a lot of people

02:35:19.400 | that do the lab leak theory stuff,

02:35:20.880 | but truly we should be able

02:35:22.560 | to have that conversation publicly.

02:35:24.280 | It just, it always feels like

02:35:25.120 | the people that are having the conversation

02:35:26.440 | don't ever really wanna have the conversation.

02:35:28.040 | They're not being honest.

02:35:28.880 | Like I'm a guy that like does his own research,

02:35:32.000 | and it's so boring reading studies,

02:35:34.360 | and a lot of it I can only do abstracts,

02:35:36.200 | and like it's so much work,

02:35:38.400 | but I'll never ever say that about myself.

02:35:40.280 | I'm a guy that does his own research

02:35:41.400 | because every time I hear somebody say that,

02:35:43.320 | they don't do any research.

02:35:44.460 | When they say they do their own research,

02:35:45.540 | what they mean is they've seen one podcast,

02:35:46.900 | and their opinion on it is completely--

02:35:47.740 | - What podcast is that?

02:35:48.900 | - Definitely not mine, 'cause if it was mine,

02:35:50.220 | I wouldn't be criticizing anything they say.

02:35:52.700 | But yeah, so like lab leak is another one,

02:35:54.180 | where it's like, well, how do you know it's lab leak?

02:35:56.100 | How do I know it's lab leak?

02:35:57.600 | Because Fauci lied, and Hunter Biden lapped up,

02:36:00.580 | and it's like, okay, come on,

02:36:01.420 | you haven't engaged with it at all.

02:36:02.300 | There's really interesting research

02:36:03.940 | that shows there's a really strong study

02:36:05.540 | that shows that there's like a high degree of certainty

02:36:08.180 | that it came from the wet markets.

02:36:10.060 | Very, very high degree of certainty.

02:36:11.820 | And there was an article that came out recently

02:36:13.320 | where it's like, Senate concludes that virus

02:36:15.600 | actually came from the Wuhan virology lab or whatever.

02:36:18.880 | And that whole article, if you actually read it,

02:36:20.800 | it never says that in the article.

02:36:21.960 | I don't know why they tweeted it with that headline.

02:36:24.480 | But yeah, to back up, I'm sorry.

02:36:26.480 | I think we should have good--

02:36:27.920 | - You should be sorry.

02:36:28.920 | - Yeah, I'm not sorry, actually.

02:36:31.000 | I get to ramble here, okay?

02:36:32.360 | I'm here for a long time.

02:36:33.420 | I rescind my apology, okay?

02:36:35.360 | I actually rescind my apology.

02:36:36.860 | We should be able to have

02:36:38.720 | challenging conversations about things,

02:36:39.600 | but you gotta, man, be well read on both sides.

02:36:41.440 | Not this like, I do my own research,

02:36:43.380 | so I don't believe anything that Fauci says.

02:36:44.860 | Like, come on, dude.

02:36:45.700 | Dude, you can do better than that.

02:36:46.700 | Not you personally, but.

02:36:48.060 | - Gotcha.

02:36:49.620 | How does that feel?

02:36:50.720 | - Feels great.

02:36:52.820 | - So for people who don't know--

02:36:53.640 | - Feel understood.

02:36:54.480 | - That's the catchphrase.

02:36:55.740 | Gotcha.

02:36:56.580 | Through all tragedy and triumph,

02:36:58.980 | through all the rollercoaster of life,

02:37:01.420 | your response to it is gotcha.

02:37:03.180 | It's, well, actually, let me jump to that

02:37:06.940 | before I continue with political discourse.

02:37:11.900 | Psychologically, you are in a lot of heated debates,

02:37:15.580 | and you're usually super calm under fire until you're not.

02:37:18.380 | Sometimes you lose your temper completely.

02:37:20.580 | - Very rarely, but.

02:37:21.860 | - That's like your opinion, man.

02:37:23.580 | Let me ask about your psychology.

02:37:24.980 | What are psychologically your strengths and weaknesses

02:37:27.460 | that you're self-aware about?

02:37:29.100 | - I think I'm very nonjudgmental,

02:37:30.440 | so I can entertain a lot of different thoughts

02:37:32.620 | without agreeing with them or condoning them.

02:37:34.740 | I think that's a really big benefit to me.

02:37:37.540 | For whatever reason, I seem to be pretty calm

02:37:40.960 | in dealing with annoying people.

02:37:43.440 | It's why I got promoted at the casino so fast.

02:37:45.080 | I could deal with drunks or whatever.

02:37:46.840 | It just didn't affect me that much.

02:37:48.360 | - What percent of the population is annoying?

02:37:51.080 | - Depends on how you're engaging with them.

02:37:53.700 | Most people aren't really annoying ever.

02:37:55.520 | - That's what I mean.

02:37:56.360 | - But if you're doing political debate,

02:37:57.960 | what percentage is annoying?

02:37:59.160 | I guess it depends on who I'm debating

02:38:00.280 | and what the topic is.

02:38:01.120 | - Well, I guess I'm trying to point out the fact

02:38:03.400 | that sometimes you can say that reveals something about you

02:38:08.020 | if you think a large percent of people are annoying.

02:38:10.260 | - Well, I would say working graveyard shift

02:38:11.780 | when alcohol is involved,

02:38:12.940 | that percentage of people goes very, very, very high.

02:38:15.580 | Or to be more fair, actually,

02:38:16.860 | it's not a high percentage, truly,

02:38:18.540 | but if you're a server,

02:38:19.820 | one bad customer can ruin the rest of your shift.

02:38:22.340 | So you only need one or two people acting in that manner

02:38:24.580 | to just totally throw you off.

02:38:26.260 | - And you're able to, at least these days,

02:38:29.380 | not allow that one customer to throw you off,

02:38:32.460 | quote, unquote.

02:38:33.300 | - It's pretty much like a,

02:38:34.240 | I noticed this especially after having a son,

02:38:36.440 | there's something about six-year-old kids or whatever

02:38:39.200 | where it's like, if they get mad,

02:38:40.720 | they're never gonna be mad for that long.

02:38:41.960 | They'll move on.

02:38:42.800 | That's my mentality.

02:38:43.640 | I'm a six-year-old kid.

02:38:44.840 | I might be mad about something,

02:38:45.680 | but I'll get over it in 30 minutes or an hour.

02:38:47.600 | I'm pretty good about not carrying that through.

02:38:50.240 | It's very rare that I'll hold a grudge against anybody

02:38:52.760 | or be angry about something

02:38:54.680 | or really disaffected by something over the long term.

02:38:56.800 | That almost never happens to me.

02:38:58.480 | - What are your weaknesses psychologically, could you say?

02:39:01.240 | - I still have a problem with projecting.

02:39:04.420 | I think we all probably do,

02:39:05.260 | but my mind onto others.

02:39:06.620 | It's like, if I understand this and I've said this,

02:39:08.620 | you should understand it.

02:39:09.500 | And if you're not, you're dumb.

02:39:11.080 | That's an issue that I,

02:39:12.540 | I still have that where I project too much.

02:39:14.660 | - What about holding grudges and stuff like that?

02:39:16.760 | - I never hold grudges.

02:39:17.860 | I'm the least grudgy person ever.

02:39:19.500 | It's kind of a meme in my community

02:39:20.540 | 'cause anybody can always come back

02:39:22.980 | as long as they're acting different.

02:39:24.100 | - What about the,

02:39:24.940 | (laughs)

02:39:25.860 | as long as they're acting different.

02:39:27.220 | - As long as they're acting different.

02:39:28.060 | - See, I mean, all right.

02:39:29.040 | - The reason why I say that is because,

02:39:30.460 | so for instance, nobody likes this,

02:39:31.980 | but I have a strong stance on apologies

02:39:33.740 | and that I hate them.

02:39:34.580 | I don't ever want to hear an apology.

02:39:35.620 | I don't care about them ever.

02:39:36.900 | They don't mean anything to me.

02:39:38.040 | If you did something bad,

02:39:39.340 | as long as you've fixed the behavior

02:39:40.880 | and you're not doing that thing,

02:39:41.780 | then we're generally chill.

02:39:42.740 | So there's been a lot of people

02:39:43.580 | that have been involved in weird stuff with me,

02:39:44.840 | but then they go off to do their thing

02:39:46.620 | and they come back and it's like, okay, cool.

02:39:48.180 | As long as you don't do it again, we're fine.

02:39:49.580 | It's all good.

02:39:50.420 | - I'm sorry you feel that way.

02:39:53.060 | It's not your fault, Steven.

02:39:55.380 | It's not your fault.

02:39:56.340 | - Okay, gotcha.

02:39:57.580 | - You've said plenty of negative stuff.

02:40:00.180 | Positive stuff and negative stuff about Hassan.

02:40:03.180 | This is my podcast.

02:40:04.340 | I get to get you to force you to say positive things.

02:40:07.020 | What do you love?

02:40:08.620 | I'm all about love.

02:40:10.260 | - Let's go back to grilling me on the R word stuff.

02:40:12.140 | You're gonna make me compliment Hassan?

02:40:13.540 | This is gonna be a harder conversation than that.

02:40:15.340 | - All right.

02:40:16.180 | We're gonna get you to feel emotions.

02:40:19.960 | So he's, for people who don't know,

02:40:22.620 | he's another popular political streamer.

02:40:25.100 | I think you had, as the kids call it,

02:40:27.860 | a bridge burning over Bernie Sanders.

02:40:30.140 | I don't know.

02:40:30.980 | My research is very limited on this.

02:40:32.620 | But what do you respect and love most about Hassan?

02:40:37.300 | - He puts in a lot of work.

02:40:38.820 | When he was growing his stream

02:40:40.260 | from 2,000 concurrent viewers to 15,000,

02:40:42.420 | he was streaming, it was like 12 hours a day,

02:40:44.780 | like every single day.

02:40:46.860 | So that was admirable.

02:40:47.700 | He did a lot of work.

02:40:49.100 | He does seem to be pretty good at networking

02:40:51.100 | and socializing and making the correct friends

02:40:53.260 | and connections to continue to build his business.

02:40:55.020 | - What about him as a political thinker?

02:40:56.900 | I know you don't think highly of him on that regard,

02:40:59.780 | but I think that's unfair.

02:41:01.300 | - Oh, man.

02:41:02.140 | - I think that's unfair.

02:41:02.960 | I honestly wanna push back on that because--

02:41:04.940 | - Okay.

02:41:05.860 | I have zero respect for him as a political thinker.

02:41:08.740 | Or there's not gonna be almost anything.

02:41:10.420 | So you can't-- - Oh, I will say,

02:41:11.620 | I admire the fact that through no actual capability

02:41:16.300 | or ability of his own, he manages to wind up

02:41:18.260 | at some of the correct answers

02:41:19.380 | just 'cause he's towing the line.

02:41:20.380 | So good job for him on that.

02:41:22.260 | He's got a lot of correct opinions,

02:41:23.460 | just he has no idea why, so.

02:41:25.140 | - I think that's undeserved.

02:41:26.220 | I think that's too harsh, man.

02:41:27.420 | - Okay.

02:41:28.260 | - The reason I bring that up is I feel like

02:41:29.420 | there is a deep grudge in there somehow.

02:41:33.020 | So you're the father now, so since you're so old,

02:41:36.660 | the grandfather of the political debate on stream,

02:41:41.220 | on livestream political debater.

02:41:43.280 | So there could be some grudge about that split

02:41:47.740 | that happened or not enough credit given

02:41:49.820 | or all that kind of stuff.

02:41:50.900 | I just think he's somebody that has a left-leaning ideology

02:41:56.340 | that's different than yours.

02:41:57.180 | He was a Bernie supporter, right?

02:41:58.740 | And I guess you were not.

02:42:00.620 | Can you explain to me what the division is?

02:42:02.980 | - He exemplifies everything that I absolutely hate

02:42:05.540 | about politics. - Which is what?

02:42:07.100 | - Which is shallow engagement,

02:42:09.700 | heavily ideologically driven.

02:42:11.820 | - And you're not ideologically different, right?

02:42:13.580 | - Absolutely not.

02:42:14.660 | Free of ideology. - That's what we're talking

02:42:16.420 | about, like the free thinker in the real meaning

02:42:18.700 | of that word.

02:42:19.540 | - Yeah, so the way, let me qualify--

02:42:20.860 | - It's your body, it's your thinking.

02:42:21.900 | - Let me qualify what I mean when I say that.

02:42:24.220 | I spent a lot of time, unfortunate time,

02:42:26.220 | delving into the boring world of philosophy.

02:42:28.100 | I spent a lot of time thinking about

02:42:30.020 | what are my ethical positions?

02:42:31.700 | How do I feel about myself, the people around me,

02:42:34.820 | and how that relates to the world around me?

02:42:36.300 | And then from all of these positions,

02:42:38.020 | I think you might have used the phrase

02:42:39.060 | first principles earlier.

02:42:40.860 | From these kind of first principles,

02:42:42.660 | out of that is where all of my political positions

02:42:45.180 | are built out of, like full stop.

02:42:47.300 | So if you ask me a question like,

02:42:48.780 | how do you feel about the right to own a firearm

02:42:50.940 | or how do you feel about social healthcare?

02:42:52.740 | We can walk through, well, this is how I feel about it

02:42:55.100 | as like a thing from the government.

02:42:56.660 | This is where the government gets its power.

02:42:58.360 | This is ethically how groups of people

02:43:00.140 | are supposed to function.

02:43:01.200 | This is morally how we relate to each other.

02:43:02.980 | And personally, this is how I feel about it.

02:43:04.180 | Like I'll be able to do every single

02:43:05.220 | political belief back there.

02:43:06.460 | It's not like I'm telling you,

02:43:07.860 | like if I were to ask Hasan,

02:43:10.180 | what do you feel about this political topic?

02:43:11.640 | He's gonna tell me what progressives are supposed to say.

02:43:13.700 | I don't know what he thinks about it.

02:43:14.580 | I don't know if he thinks about it.

02:43:15.420 | - Don't you think that's a cynical take?

02:43:16.460 | Why is he, just because his views coincide

02:43:19.740 | with the mainstream narrative,

02:43:21.580 | mainstream viewpoints of progressive thinkers,

02:43:24.220 | I mean, why does that mean he's not thinking?

02:43:27.500 | - Because his engagement with every subject

02:43:29.180 | is incredibly shallow, 100% predictable.

02:43:32.060 | Like I could write like a,

02:43:33.940 | I could probably program a script

02:43:35.420 | to like give you every single potential answer

02:43:37.260 | you could have to any single question you could give him.

02:43:39.260 | - Again, I think that's pretty cynical take.

02:43:41.220 | - Okay, it could be the case that his brain

02:43:42.740 | perfectly aligns with every single mainstream--

02:43:44.340 | - No, but I don't know if you know it is perfectly aligns

02:43:47.060 | 'cause I think you're just taking a very select,

02:43:48.900 | just like streamers do of each other,

02:43:51.020 | a very select slice that represents the perfect alignment

02:43:55.940 | as opposed to looking at a person struggling with ideas

02:43:58.340 | and thinking through ideas and then giving them a pass

02:44:01.060 | like a lot of people, like I give you a pass

02:44:03.820 | on just the fact that you say a lot of crazy shit

02:44:07.460 | on stream for drama, like which is--

02:44:09.780 | - I don't say things for drama.

02:44:11.140 | It might be dramatic, but.

02:44:13.100 | - I mean, you've evolved as a fish evolves legs.

02:44:17.020 | You've evolved a mechanism which creates controversy.

02:44:20.540 | - Sure.

02:44:21.380 | - That you could say it's not intention, but it happens.

02:44:24.100 | I think the extremists kind of learn that kind of thing.

02:44:27.420 | And so I'm sure Hasan does the same kind of stuff.

02:44:30.380 | And so like underneath it, there's still a thinking being

02:44:33.180 | that's contending with political ideas.

02:44:36.300 | You don't think so.

02:44:37.140 | - He does a really good job of hiding it.

02:44:38.620 | There are other political figures that I really don't like

02:44:41.180 | that I wouldn't say the same thing about.

02:44:42.300 | So like, I don't know if you have Vosch written in there.

02:44:44.060 | I'm like, okay, that's a person that--

02:44:45.660 | - That's Vosch.

02:44:46.500 | - That also split out of my community

02:44:48.020 | and grew up to something.

02:44:48.860 | And now he hates me and he's an anti-fan community

02:44:50.740 | and they all hate him.

02:44:51.580 | - Okay, tell me something you love about Vosch.

02:44:53.140 | - I can tell you a lot of things about Vosch.

02:44:54.620 | I think Vosch legitimately thinks through a lot

02:44:56.340 | of his political positions.

02:44:58.020 | I admire or did admire that he has like his own like

02:45:01.280 | positions that he would take sometimes contrary

02:45:02.700 | to people further left than him.

02:45:04.460 | He's got some positions that don't fit his ideology

02:45:06.660 | kind of at all.

02:45:07.500 | Like he's his own intimate thinker.

02:45:08.620 | Rhetorically, he's very effective.

02:45:10.220 | He was willing to sit down and do research

02:45:12.300 | for like his debates and everything.

02:45:14.340 | He would spend a lot of time practicing

02:45:15.840 | like his rhetorical effectiveness

02:45:17.260 | and navigating conversations.

02:45:19.140 | He intentionally and purposefully built like a community

02:45:21.300 | that exemplified his values.

02:45:23.260 | Yeah, I've got a lot.

02:45:24.100 | I don't, we are completely split and hate each other now.

02:45:27.020 | But like I have a lot of--

02:45:27.860 | - Why, why, why?

02:45:28.900 | First of all, hate is a strong, why the hate?

02:45:31.580 | - Okay, I don't hate him, but he hates me

02:45:33.460 | because we had a couple of really big debates.

02:45:35.220 | - What happened?

02:45:36.060 | - Well, one had to do with whether or not

02:45:37.500 | you should live your values.

02:45:39.060 | - And can you give me the story

02:45:40.780 | that's a charitable interpretation?

02:45:42.420 | - I always give charitable interpretation.

02:45:43.660 | - You don't.

02:45:44.500 | - I absolutely do.

02:45:45.700 | - You don't.

02:45:46.540 | - Wait, name one time it happened.

02:45:47.640 | - Five minutes ago, you talking about Hasan.

02:45:49.540 | - Everything I said about Hasan is true.

02:45:50.740 | There is no steel man there, okay?

02:45:52.180 | - That's not charitable.

02:45:53.220 | (laughing)

02:45:54.380 | - I'm sorry, if you can prove me wrong,

02:45:56.500 | I would love for you to do it, okay?

02:45:57.860 | - I'm using my gut instinct.

02:45:59.540 | Usually when somebody feels strongly

02:46:02.340 | about another person in that way,

02:46:04.180 | it's not coming from a place of data and reason.

02:46:06.700 | It's coming from a place of emotion.

02:46:09.160 | It's coming from a place of resentment

02:46:11.580 | and grudge and all that kind of stuff.

02:46:13.140 | - Yeah, I understand.

02:46:14.140 | - There's emotions deep in there.

02:46:15.620 | So the gotcha is hiding,

02:46:17.380 | the gotcha is a surface of an iceberg

02:46:21.220 | and there's a deep ocean underneath

02:46:22.900 | that you yourself have not explored.

02:46:24.460 | - I disagree, but I understand what you're saying.

02:46:25.940 | - And love is actually a doorway,

02:46:27.740 | the young love is a doorway for you to explore

02:46:31.260 | the depths of your--

02:46:32.100 | - Yeah, get into that ocean to find my fish,

02:46:33.260 | my pre-evolved form.

02:46:34.460 | - Yeah.

02:46:35.420 | - I understand why you think the way you do,

02:46:36.780 | and you should, you shouldn't believe me.

02:46:38.260 | And I understand that,

02:46:39.520 | because if somebody told me the same thing,

02:46:40.780 | I'd think you probably just really don't like this person

02:46:42.340 | for a reason or two.

02:46:43.300 | I understand why you think that way, okay?

02:46:45.060 | The reality is though,

02:46:46.060 | for any political person that I disagree with,

02:46:47.780 | like I can give them a fair shake.

02:46:49.140 | It's one of the few things I think I do

02:46:50.820 | exceedingly well on my stream.

02:46:52.300 | Even with Hasan, there's been drama

02:46:53.580 | that he's been involved in,

02:46:54.660 | and I've like very, when I'm involved in drama,

02:46:56.780 | he'll always throw me under the bus.

02:46:57.980 | But when he's involved in stuff, I'll always say like,

02:46:59.460 | "Oh, like I think Hasan was right here,"

02:47:01.140 | or "I think that he meant this."

02:47:03.300 | There was a thing that came up once we're on,

02:47:05.740 | livestream fail, he was getting roasted

02:47:07.060 | because he referred to somebody,

02:47:08.820 | he used the expression "shit skin"

02:47:10.740 | to refer to somebody's, like the way they looked.

02:47:13.260 | And I have only ever heard that

02:47:15.820 | in the context of 4chan people

02:47:17.140 | talking about like Indians or like black people.

02:47:19.540 | Like it's a racial thing.

02:47:21.100 | But I could tell the context

02:47:23.300 | and everything that he was saying.

02:47:24.620 | He was insulting some guy,

02:47:25.900 | I think it was kind of like Ensel Virch or whatever.

02:47:27.220 | He was going for like acne skin.

02:47:28.980 | I think that's what he meant when he said it.

02:47:30.300 | And there were a whole bunch of people

02:47:31.220 | that were insulting, like,

02:47:32.060 | "Oh my God, did he just say racist term?"

02:47:33.140 | I was like, "No, I don't think he was racist."

02:47:34.300 | I think he was like, he was just reaching for words,

02:47:35.860 | and that's what came out.

02:47:37.460 | So like that's an example of me being charitable.

02:47:39.820 | - Okay, but didn't you criticize him for something?

02:47:41.940 | I was trying to, I like Googled

02:47:43.820 | why the hell you guys split up,

02:47:45.140 | 'cause I thought your friends,

02:47:46.300 | you should be like-

02:47:47.140 | - It's a little bit of a Kamala Harris video,

02:47:48.620 | but go ahead, what were you-

02:47:49.460 | - Is that why, is that the,

02:47:51.620 | I feel like you criticized him over something.

02:47:54.620 | And I, okay, this is very vague memory,

02:47:56.700 | but you criticized him over something,

02:47:58.660 | and I felt that criticism wasn't charitable.

02:48:00.980 | - Was it Pete Buttigieg's stuff?

02:48:02.220 | - Yeah, Pete Buttigieg, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

02:48:03.940 | - Yeah, so I've said this a million times,

02:48:06.060 | but no amount of context or no amount of nuances

02:48:08.320 | is ever acceptable to people.

02:48:09.460 | I don't think Hasan is homophobic,

02:48:11.980 | but I think the comments made about Pete Buttigieg

02:48:14.580 | were really homophobic.

02:48:15.420 | - That's what he said, right?

02:48:16.380 | - Yeah, and there were a lot of people

02:48:18.260 | making a lot of comments that made me really uncomfortable

02:48:21.660 | about Pete Buttigieg, that was insane to me.

02:48:24.900 | - Spurred by the comments of Hasan?

02:48:27.580 | - No, but it was an environment of progressives,

02:48:30.340 | all the progressives were attacking Pete,

02:48:32.460 | and I felt like his gayness became like the subject

02:48:36.300 | of a lot of attack. - Yeah, but why,

02:48:37.140 | why throw Hasan under the bus for that?

02:48:38.940 | - 'Cause he was jumping along

02:48:39.980 | with all of those types of insults.

02:48:42.180 | - You don't think you've done the same kind of stuff?

02:48:44.020 | - If I do, call me on it,

02:48:44.860 | and I'll probably say I shouldn't have done it.

02:48:46.180 | - That's what the R word was about.

02:48:47.780 | - That's fine, that's a good call-out.

02:48:49.180 | - No, but your friend, you should privately tell him,

02:48:51.660 | right, like, hey-- - Well, no, by then

02:48:53.220 | we were sworn enemies, so.

02:48:54.740 | - So that wasn't the reason you--

02:48:55.860 | - No, no, no, it was over a Kamala Harris video.

02:48:57.380 | - Sworn enemies. - Yeah.

02:48:59.060 | - He hates me, what am I supposed, listen,

02:49:01.140 | for all of these people, I will accept them

02:49:02.820 | back into my life if they ever wanna come back in

02:49:04.540 | at any point in time, but usually they're the ones

02:49:06.020 | that are saying like-- - If they correct

02:49:07.060 | themselves, right?

02:49:08.740 | - No, I'm not expecting anybody to,

02:49:10.540 | so here's the deal with Vosh and Hasan,

02:49:11.860 | these are like the three, we're the three guys online,

02:49:14.420 | none of us will talk to each other.

02:49:16.220 | Hasan because he won't give clout to anybody,

02:49:17.660 | and Vosh because he thinks I'm bad faith,

02:49:20.380 | and then neither of them will talk to me

02:49:21.540 | because they both hate me.

02:49:22.740 | - You guys should go on a camping trip together.

02:49:25.100 | It's like Brokeback Mountain, but three-way,

02:49:27.340 | and just like rejoin, refine--

02:49:29.420 | - Yeah, that could be a thing.

02:49:30.260 | - Refine the patient for each other.

02:49:31.180 | Honestly, just from the internet perspective,

02:49:32.820 | for me as just stepping into this world,

02:49:35.720 | there's some aspect to which you have a responsibility,

02:49:40.440 | I hate that word.

02:49:41.720 | - Good word, don't run from it.

02:49:43.000 | - You have an opportunity, I wish you guys

02:49:45.240 | would kind of be the beacon of forgiveness

02:49:48.760 | and friendship and camaraderie and that kind of stuff.

02:49:50.600 | - Yeah, I agree, and even if we disagree,

02:49:52.280 | it would be really good content for us to argue.

02:49:53.880 | - Yeah, like shit talk, like friends shit talk,

02:49:56.200 | versus not, like the fact that you guys

02:49:58.120 | don't talk to each other.

02:50:00.780 | Like I would love for you to shit talk publicly,

02:50:03.480 | with a camaraderie always there.

02:50:04.840 | Like there's love in the beginning, love in the end,

02:50:07.400 | but you beat the shit out of each other in the middle,

02:50:09.200 | and that's what live streaming is for,

02:50:10.880 | the political discourse, that's great political discourse.

02:50:14.200 | Versus, I think what underlies it,

02:50:16.680 | some jealousy and so on, with this,

02:50:19.180 | you get this many followers.

02:50:20.680 | (laughing)

02:50:22.400 | - I just wanna make sure you're clear to your audience.

02:50:23.360 | - Everybody has, to your audience.

02:50:26.200 | I'm sure you have flaws, and I'm just not,

02:50:28.720 | in this dynamic--

02:50:29.560 | - Hard to find, you know, 'cause I'm--

02:50:30.760 | - Your only flaw is you're too modest, yeah.

02:50:33.520 | - So why did you guys split up?

02:50:34.880 | Because I would love it, honestly,

02:50:36.520 | just let me just put that idea out there,

02:50:38.560 | for you guys to make up.

02:50:41.200 | - Yeah, it's out there, of course,

02:50:42.280 | as everybody talks, me, Vash, and Hasan.

02:50:44.000 | It's crazy that like the three largest,

02:50:45.480 | like political debate, left leaning people online,

02:50:48.600 | like can't do any type of content or collaboration at all.

02:50:51.520 | It's so stupid.

02:50:52.600 | - Yeah, it's strange.

02:50:53.440 | What was the reason you guys split up, the Kamala Harris?

02:50:55.880 | - So, Hasan's entry into kind of like

02:50:58.240 | the Twitch political debate world was in, I think 2018.

02:51:01.800 | And I think he did a debate with Charlie Kirk.

02:51:03.960 | And he reached out to me to kind of like review that debate,

02:51:06.960 | to like go over it on stream.

02:51:08.920 | And he came on, we went over it,

02:51:10.280 | and then we kind of, a friendship developed.

02:51:11.880 | We hung out in real life.

02:51:12.800 | I think when I came to LA, I think I slept on his couch,

02:51:14.720 | we played with his dog, we were like kind of friends.

02:51:17.200 | And as time went on, I think he was a little bit more,

02:51:21.960 | he was farther left than he let on.

02:51:25.120 | So like I was a social Democrat, he was a social Democrat.

02:51:27.480 | But back in those days, like 2018,

02:51:29.520 | when people said they were a social Democrat,

02:51:30.880 | they really meant socialist,

02:51:31.760 | but they just didn't wanna say it.

02:51:32.760 | So he was farther left than me.

02:51:33.840 | And we had a lot of deep divides

02:51:36.280 | in our approach to politics.

02:51:38.440 | Whereas like I was very much like a first principles,

02:51:41.000 | this is my whole political position.

02:51:42.360 | And he was very much kind of like a,

02:51:44.200 | this is like the political ideology I'm involved in.

02:51:46.200 | And this is kind of like the field

02:51:47.200 | that I kind of like navigate in.

02:51:48.680 | So there were a couple instances where these divides

02:51:51.360 | would be laid very bare.

02:51:53.080 | One was when, it was either him or the Young Turks.

02:51:56.680 | I think it was him.

02:51:58.400 | There was a shooting in a neighborhood

02:52:00.080 | where very young black child gets killed by a white shooter.

02:52:03.640 | And they did a video about like hate crimes

02:52:06.000 | and how hate crimes are on the rise

02:52:07.720 | between races and white people are evil and blah, blah, blah.

02:52:09.960 | Not that, but like white people committing hate crimes

02:52:11.720 | against black people.

02:52:12.800 | And I remember saying to him, I was like,

02:52:14.760 | "Hey, we don't have all the data yet for this.

02:52:17.560 | "It feels really bad to make videos about this beforehand

02:52:20.560 | "'cause it's the same type of shit

02:52:21.600 | "that happens at airports.

02:52:23.620 | "Is there a thing going on?

02:52:24.640 | "Was it a brown person?

02:52:25.520 | "Are they Muslim?

02:52:26.360 | "It's Islamic extremism."

02:52:27.360 | We see this played out so many times.

02:52:29.160 | In recent history, probably not a good idea

02:52:31.080 | to jump to conclusions.

02:52:32.120 | And he's like, "Well, no, you don't understand.

02:52:33.560 | "It's not that big a deal, whatever."

02:52:34.920 | And obviously as the story goes,

02:52:36.400 | tale as old as time, the data comes out.

02:52:38.160 | It was just an errant shot.

02:52:39.640 | There was like gang violence,

02:52:40.800 | shot goes out of nowhere, hits a kid in the car.

02:52:42.480 | It wasn't like a hate crime.

02:52:43.400 | The guy was trying to kill a kid.

02:52:44.520 | But yeah, we basically, we bump up against a few

02:52:46.920 | kind of political disagreements like this.

02:52:49.160 | And an annoying thing is happening in my community

02:52:51.320 | where Hasan is like the serious political figure

02:52:53.360 | 'cause he's from the Young Turks.

02:52:54.520 | And I'm just kind of like, I do politics, but I also game.

02:52:56.880 | And anytime I criticize Hasan, people like Destiny,

02:52:59.280 | you need to be more respectful.

02:53:00.240 | He does this full time.

02:53:01.360 | If you're gonna bring criticisms,

02:53:02.400 | you need to be like really well read and researched

02:53:04.000 | because he's got a more serious, whatever,

02:53:06.200 | which I thought was ridiculous.

02:53:07.040 | - So by the way, if people don't know,

02:53:08.580 | he worked at the Young Turks, which is--

02:53:11.240 | - Like the largest left-leaning YouTube channel probably.

02:53:13.080 | - At least at the time, yeah.

02:53:14.520 | - So finally, he did a video on,

02:53:18.320 | we skip ahead to some more minor disagreements.

02:53:19.920 | He does a video on Kamala Harris.

02:53:21.400 | He calls it "Katmala Harris."

02:53:22.880 | And it's like seven or eight horrible things

02:53:24.640 | about Kamala Harris.

02:53:25.480 | And I'm like, okay, I know at least one or two

02:53:27.240 | of these things are not fully accurate.

02:53:28.560 | So I'm gonna do all the research.

02:53:30.520 | I'm gonna have all the sources

02:53:31.560 | and we're gonna have a long conversation about it

02:53:32.920 | so that now when I provide criticism to him,

02:53:34.980 | it's not gonna be like this horrible,

02:53:37.080 | like just me saying something flippantly or whatever.

02:53:39.280 | It's gonna be like substantial criticism.

02:53:41.080 | So I was on a plane ride, JFK to Orlando, whatever,

02:53:45.960 | flying to Sweden to visit my wife.

02:53:48.020 | And on the plane, I review all of the video,

02:53:50.920 | all the data, do all the research and I write everything.

02:53:52.680 | It's like, okay, I get to my wife's dad's house

02:53:57.680 | and I'm at the table.

02:53:59.560 | We're having a conversation like,

02:54:00.560 | hey, we should talk about the Kamala Harris stuff.

02:54:03.600 | And he's like, okay, well, let's do it.

02:54:05.000 | And we go over it and I'll leave to the audience

02:54:09.000 | to watch the video.

02:54:10.080 | Enough people have said this,

02:54:10.900 | I feel pretty confident in saying this.

02:54:12.080 | I was pretty reasonable, pretty measured,

02:54:13.920 | pretty calm the whole time.

02:54:15.040 | And I think he started to get increasingly irritated

02:54:17.180 | that I was levying like more and more serious criticisms

02:54:20.200 | at like the quality of work that he did.

02:54:22.440 | Probably because he felt a little bit intimidated,

02:54:24.260 | I think by my willingness to like dive

02:54:26.440 | through political stuff.

02:54:27.680 | There'd been a couple of awkward blowups where like on,

02:54:30.280 | there's like a show called the Raj Royale

02:54:32.220 | where sometimes politics would come up

02:54:34.400 | and Hassan would kind of try to explain something.

02:54:36.240 | And there was another person one time on the show

02:54:37.720 | that made the joke.

02:54:38.560 | It was like, instead of Hassan taking 10 minutes

02:54:39.840 | to explain this, can Destiny just come here

02:54:41.160 | and explain it in 30 seconds?

02:54:42.320 | And he like exploded at that.

02:54:43.440 | He got so fucking mad at that.

02:54:46.040 | So yeah, I think that when I made that kind of call out

02:54:48.100 | or critique of him over the Kamala Harris stuff,

02:54:49.960 | he's probably feeling like increasingly irritated,

02:54:51.960 | threatened, agitated.

02:54:52.920 | And then that's kind of what began the huge split from ours.

02:54:56.000 | - So you don't think you were a dick at all?

02:54:58.080 | - I don't think so in that conversation.

02:55:00.000 | Especially given that like at that point,

02:55:02.240 | 'cause this is still 2018 or 20, this might be 2019.

02:55:06.000 | I'm still known at that point as being very aggressive

02:55:09.280 | towards conservatives or all writers.

02:55:11.240 | - Oh, gotcha.

02:55:12.080 | - Yeah, so, and with lefties is what I call them.

02:55:14.000 | I think I'm being like very gentle.

02:55:15.680 | Like my conversation I'll start with conservatives

02:55:17.240 | like you're a fuck idiot, you're so dumb.

02:55:18.920 | Like that's how I'm like doing.

02:55:19.960 | So like with him, I'm like,

02:55:20.920 | well, don't you think that like,

02:55:22.000 | this is like a little bit of like an inconsistent

02:55:24.160 | presentation about like, I feel like I'm being nice.

02:55:26.000 | But I always leave to the audience,

02:55:27.200 | they can go and watch that Kamala video,

02:55:29.160 | Kamala Harris video, "Destiny of Son"

02:55:30.560 | if they think that I was being a dick.

02:55:31.920 | But a lot of people watching said

02:55:32.840 | I was being pretty gentle.

02:55:33.840 | - Well, let me say as a new fan of this space,

02:55:37.320 | I hope you guys make up and I hope you guys fight it out

02:55:41.080 | in the space of discourse and ideas.

02:55:43.040 | - Me too.

02:55:43.880 | - And also with empathy, understanding what the strength

02:55:45.680 | of the other person is, what their buttons are.

02:55:48.120 | And there's like an unspoken rule

02:55:51.240 | that you don't press the buttons that you need to,

02:55:54.720 | unless you're doing it mutually and it's fun,

02:55:57.160 | 'cause it's fun to piss each other off.

02:55:58.880 | So that's kind of like what friends do,

02:56:01.000 | you don't cross a certain line.

02:56:03.080 | But then other than that, you fight it out.

02:56:05.400 | Okay, let's step back.

02:56:06.840 | One other super interesting aspect of your worldview

02:56:10.240 | is you're a big supporter of Biden.

02:56:13.560 | Can you explain what you love about Biden?

02:56:15.560 | Do you love Biden more than Sean Carroll or less?

02:56:18.480 | - Sean Carroll is just like in another world of admiration.

02:56:22.640 | - I feel like I'm culturally appropriating you

02:56:24.960 | by saying gotcha now, but it's so convenient.

02:56:27.840 | - It's an easy word, you're just,

02:56:29.520 | we're on the same wavelength, okay?

02:56:30.800 | We're synchronizing, that's good.

02:56:32.280 | - I mean, it is really interesting

02:56:33.640 | because even the people that support Biden

02:56:35.400 | usually don't say they love,

02:56:37.560 | sort of they don't support it strongly.

02:56:39.720 | - Ideologically, philosophically,

02:56:41.920 | the reason why I like Biden is 'cause he's really committed

02:56:44.600 | to this bringing the left and right together,

02:56:46.640 | which is something we so desperately need in the country.

02:56:49.360 | And his statements over and over again of like,

02:56:52.480 | I'm not the Democrat president or the Republican president,

02:56:54.960 | I'm the president of the United States.

02:56:56.520 | His desire to bring Republicans together

02:56:58.920 | to work on things like the infrastructure bill,

02:57:01.440 | that's so incredibly needed.

02:57:03.560 | And I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for him

02:57:06.520 | for trying to push through on that message.

02:57:08.560 | - Do you think then it's unfortunate

02:57:10.400 | that he made that comment about MAGA?

02:57:12.400 | - MAGA Republicans?

02:57:13.240 | - Yeah, I mean, I forget what the comment was,

02:57:15.160 | but MAGA Republicans are not good people kind of thing.

02:57:18.440 | - I watched the full video and he's right.

02:57:21.680 | There is this toxic aspect and it's hard to call out

02:57:24.440 | because they're always gonna spend like,

02:57:25.680 | oh, he hates our Republicans, he's not.

02:57:26.880 | If you watch the quote, he's very specifically calling out

02:57:29.400 | like this group of people

02:57:31.000 | that think that the election was fraudulent.

02:57:33.120 | - Is it clear that's what he meant by--

02:57:35.600 | - We can bring it up.

02:57:36.960 | - All right, this is--

02:57:37.800 | - Oh no, uh-oh.

02:57:39.200 | But I remember watching it on stream,

02:57:40.040 | it was like, if he said it, yeah, that's bad.

02:57:41.360 | You can probably like YouTube MAGA Republicans Biden.

02:57:43.920 | But like, it feels like it's pretty clear

02:57:44.920 | he's talking about the people that are like,

02:57:46.120 | election denying.

02:57:47.840 | - Too much of what's happening in our country today

02:57:50.400 | is not normal.

02:57:52.360 | Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans

02:57:56.600 | represent an extremism that threatens

02:57:59.200 | the very foundations of our republic.

02:58:02.240 | Now I wanna be very clear.

02:58:05.400 | - Listen to this part. - Very clear up front.

02:58:08.960 | - Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans

02:58:11.760 | are MAGA Republicans.

02:58:13.200 | Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology.

02:58:18.040 | I know, 'cause I've been able to work

02:58:20.640 | with these mainstream Republicans.

02:58:22.600 | But there's no question that the Republican Party today

02:58:27.000 | is dominated, driven, and intimidated

02:58:30.320 | by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans.

02:58:32.760 | And that is a threat to this country.

02:58:36.640 | - I disagree with that, man.

02:58:37.600 | He didn't clearly say extremist ideology.

02:58:41.680 | He didn't say the people that doubt

02:58:44.200 | the validity of the election.

02:58:45.560 | - I mean, that's Donald Trump.

02:58:47.040 | - No, but there's--

02:58:48.400 | - That's all the candidates that Donald Trump is supporting.

02:58:50.360 | How many, what is it, like 40, 50,

02:58:51.720 | how many candidates right now that are MAGA candidates

02:58:54.160 | are election deniers?

02:58:55.040 | - No, but there's 80 million or whatever people

02:58:58.120 | voted for Donald Trump.

02:58:59.560 | You could say that's the MAGA Republicans.

02:59:02.320 | So to me, it sounded like he was referring

02:59:06.320 | to not even the majority.

02:59:08.520 | I mean, that's one nice, helpful, clarifying statement.

02:59:12.840 | But it's basically there's the mainstream Republicans,

02:59:15.160 | and then there's those that voted for Donald Trump.

02:59:17.380 | That's the way I heard it.

02:59:18.640 | - Okay.

02:59:19.480 | - And it's like, so--

02:59:20.320 | - Maybe he should've done a better job at clarifying, but.

02:59:22.160 | - Yeah, I--

02:59:23.000 | - I feel like there's like a clear,

02:59:24.040 | there is a huge problem with this group of Americans

02:59:27.280 | that think that the election is stolen.

02:59:28.520 | I feel like that's what he's trying to call it.

02:59:29.360 | - No matter if that's what he meant,

02:59:33.760 | even flirting with that line is not a person

02:59:37.080 | who's bringing people together.

02:59:39.180 | - I feel like the extending a hand to the,

02:59:41.200 | like most, I've worked with Republicans in Congress,

02:59:43.560 | not even a majority of Republicans are like this.

02:59:46.800 | - No, but why say not the majority of Republicans

02:59:49.240 | are like this?

02:59:50.060 | Say like we are, like we're one country.

02:59:53.640 | We believe the same thing.

02:59:54.520 | So like focus on the uniting part versus saying--

02:59:57.280 | - He does before and after.

02:59:58.120 | That was 50 seconds, okay?

02:59:59.080 | - But that, you never,

03:00:00.800 | the point is you never say something like that.

03:00:02.600 | Listen, like that, you've spoken about the Bosnia speech,

03:00:05.560 | which is your favorite of his.

03:00:07.080 | - Yeah.

03:00:07.920 | - I went back to it and listened to it.

03:00:09.200 | - Before I move to that, just on this,

03:00:10.560 | it's really hard for him to call out that group

03:00:12.800 | of like election deniers, I think,

03:00:14.120 | without it always feeling like--

03:00:14.960 | - Well, why call them out?

03:00:16.640 | - Because it's arguably one of the most destructive forces

03:00:19.240 | that exist in this country today.

03:00:21.120 | - Did it destroy anything?

03:00:22.920 | - They were trying to.

03:00:24.280 | - Did it, though?

03:00:25.940 | It didn't, did it?

03:00:27.280 | - So does that mean we don't call it out?

03:00:28.600 | We wait till next time?

03:00:29.640 | - Because calling it out is giving fuel to the division.

03:00:34.200 | Like the people that doubted the validity of the election,

03:00:38.080 | that's anger, that's frustration with the other side.

03:00:40.880 | You heal that as opposed to saying all those people

03:00:44.160 | that believed that at any time are idiots.

03:00:47.640 | They're un-American.

03:00:49.140 | - I mean, they don't think the election was real.

03:00:50.720 | I don't know if Biden has the ears of these people at all.

03:00:52.940 | I don't know what he can do for--

03:00:55.020 | - There's people that believe the same thing in 2016

03:00:57.960 | with the Russian hacking, right?

03:00:59.640 | - Hold on.

03:01:01.360 | - Yes.

03:01:02.600 | - That is a super not fair comparison.

03:01:04.500 | There were definitely, the mainstream Democrat opinion

03:01:08.940 | was that Russian intrusion in terms of like social media

03:01:13.880 | and stuff happened, but there was never a claim

03:01:15.880 | that like the election was stolen.

03:01:17.480 | No main, or at least I don't know of any mainstream Democrat

03:01:19.880 | that supported that.

03:01:20.760 | Donald Trump is not just saying

03:01:22.000 | there was interference, blah, blah, blah.

03:01:23.200 | Donald Trump is literally saying

03:01:24.320 | the election was literally stolen.

03:01:26.360 | Vote boxes were, ballot boxes were hidden,

03:01:28.720 | that vote tallies were manipulated.

03:01:30.640 | I think the claim is there's a huge gulf

03:01:32.640 | of difference between the two.

03:01:33.960 | - So you can attack Donald Trump for that.

03:01:36.480 | - Yeah.

03:01:37.520 | - I believe it's not the words of a uniter

03:01:40.280 | to attack people that believe that.

03:01:43.940 | You could argue maybe it's okay,

03:01:47.200 | but especially not being super clear about that,

03:01:49.980 | about who you're referring to when you say MAGA Republicans.

03:01:52.920 | 'Cause MAGA is a hat and a slogan

03:01:57.920 | that refers to whatever the number is,

03:02:02.720 | 70 million people, whoever, that voted for Donald Trump.

03:02:05.840 | Like--

03:02:06.680 | - Of all the Republicans that consider themselves

03:02:07.520 | MAGA Republicans, what percentage of them do you think

03:02:09.940 | believe the election was stolen?

03:02:12.320 | I feel like that number is, I don't have the poll,

03:02:13.640 | but I feel like that number is like probably more than 70%.

03:02:17.080 | - What's a MAGA Republican?

03:02:18.680 | Maybe I'm not familiar--

03:02:19.520 | - Like a Trump supporting Republican, a MAGA Republican.

03:02:21.480 | They're there for Trump.

03:02:23.200 | - What's the difference between somebody

03:02:24.320 | that voted for Trump and a--

03:02:26.120 | - MAGA Republican?

03:02:26.960 | - And a MAGA Republican.

03:02:27.880 | - So my mom is a MAGA Republican.

03:02:30.680 | If Trump ran independently and DeSantis ran

03:02:33.480 | under the Republican ticket, my mom would vote for Trump.

03:02:36.080 | She'll follow him to the end of the earth.

03:02:37.520 | That's like a MAGA Republican.

03:02:38.880 | - I think it's easy to mistake that distinction

03:02:42.160 | in these kinds of political speeches.

03:02:44.080 | 'Cause to me, anybody who voted for Trump

03:02:46.700 | can easily in the context of the speech

03:02:49.140 | be interpreted as a MAGA Republican.

03:02:51.800 | - Gotcha.

03:02:52.640 | I understand what you're saying.

03:02:56.080 | Maybe you could have been more clear,

03:02:56.960 | but I think in listening to that,

03:02:58.560 | I think it's pretty obvious who he's talking about.

03:03:01.420 | But I guess if you have an emotional response to it,

03:03:03.360 | I can understand the emotional response.

03:03:04.440 | But there's a lot of people that--

03:03:05.280 | - I don't have an emotional response.

03:03:06.640 | I just don't like, I think I'm with, what is it?

03:03:09.880 | Michelle Obama, they go low, we go high.

03:03:13.320 | Meaning like, to me, a uniter doesn't participate

03:03:17.480 | in derision.

03:03:18.480 | - Sure, a uniter might not,

03:03:19.420 | but a leader has to be able to accurately assess

03:03:21.680 | the situation before him

03:03:23.080 | and make people aware of what's going on.

03:03:24.240 | - You mean all the impeachment trials,

03:03:26.120 | all the censoring from social media,

03:03:28.640 | all of that didn't do the job?

03:03:30.360 | - That's not his job.

03:03:31.480 | I don't know about censoring any of that.

03:03:32.320 | - No, but that mechanism,

03:03:33.480 | his job is to inspire a nation to unite a nation.

03:03:36.760 | - How can he do that when half the people

03:03:37.840 | don't believe that he was even legitimately elected?

03:03:40.200 | Like, I think he's done a good job

03:03:41.080 | at working on legislation and doing stuff

03:03:42.800 | that hopefully benefits all Americans.

03:03:44.360 | But I think it's important to recognize

03:03:45.820 | that there is a contingent of Americans

03:03:47.680 | that don't even believe, like, this is really crazy.

03:03:49.760 | - There are plenty of people that recognize that

03:03:51.840 | and are fighting that and are constantly

03:03:53.360 | screaming that from the rooftops.

03:03:55.200 | His job is to be the inspiring figure

03:03:59.520 | that makes the majority of Americans be proud

03:04:02.440 | for him to be a president of the nation they love.

03:04:05.920 | And that's what the uniting aspect is,

03:04:08.680 | is you remind people that we are one

03:04:12.120 | and we love this country,

03:04:13.160 | we love the ideas that it represents.

03:04:14.840 | - He does that in other parts of that speech.

03:04:16.200 | It's like a 20 minute speech, isn't it?

03:04:17.480 | But that's a fuck up.

03:04:19.080 | You just don't participate in that division.

03:04:21.560 | Anyway, I understand, I understand.

03:04:24.460 | I just wanted to push back on the saying,

03:04:26.240 | one of his strengths is that he's uniting.

03:04:30.520 | But yes, that is an ideal, that is a goal, is a great one.

03:04:35.520 | And he is one that espoused that goal for a long time.

03:04:40.120 | Do you think, what else?

03:04:42.320 | So from a policy perspective and so on.

03:04:44.520 | - I thought the way he's handled Ukraine and everything

03:04:45.920 | thus far has been almost perfect.

03:04:47.600 | I think he did a really good job.

03:04:49.280 | And at the political maneuvering

03:04:51.080 | of bringing other countries into the fold,

03:04:52.640 | at establishing clearly what our mission was

03:04:54.720 | in relation to Ukraine, I thought he did a good job there.

03:04:57.240 | I admire him for pulling out of Afghanistan.

03:04:59.040 | Even if it was a little bit rough around the edges,

03:05:01.080 | we got out and we're gone, no American lives were lost.

03:05:03.880 | The domestic policy, he's passed more major legislation

03:05:08.000 | than I think anybody thought possible.

03:05:10.280 | The green energy stuff with the last bill,

03:05:11.880 | the infrastructure bill.

03:05:13.720 | A lot of the coronavirus relief I thought was really good,

03:05:15.640 | especially the expansion of the child tax credit.

03:05:18.160 | So from a policy perspective, foreign and domestic,

03:05:20.520 | I think he's been successful.

03:05:21.640 | Rhetorically, I think he's generally been above board

03:05:24.240 | in terms of not attacking people or being too divisive.

03:05:26.800 | He's trying to bring people together and work on them.

03:05:28.840 | - What do you think about the sort of popular in the media

03:05:32.240 | criticism of his mental decline?

03:05:34.340 | Do you think he's experiencing mental decline?

03:05:35.180 | - You know, he's an old guy.

03:05:37.360 | - But do you think, I mean, do you?

03:05:40.040 | - Yeah, maybe a little bit,

03:05:41.240 | but he's still doing a good job, so you know.

03:05:43.320 | - Not from a speech perspective,

03:05:44.520 | you mean from a policy perspective?

03:05:45.720 | - Yeah, I'm analyzing it as a job, yeah.

03:05:47.440 | From a speech perspective, maybe not the greatest,

03:05:49.400 | but yeah, I mean, he's definitely, what is he, like 80, 81?

03:05:51.800 | How old is he?

03:05:52.640 | - I lose track after so many years.

03:05:54.360 | - Yeah.

03:05:55.200 | - But you did say that he's probably going to run in 2024

03:05:59.600 | and he's probably going to win.

03:06:01.160 | - Did I say that, that he's probably gonna win?

03:06:02.680 | No way did I say that.

03:06:03.520 | - I heard that somewhere.

03:06:04.340 | - He's probably gonna run.

03:06:05.180 | - Okay.

03:06:06.020 | - Who knows who will win?

03:06:06.840 | But I think, I feel like the incumbent advantage

03:06:08.880 | is so strong.

03:06:09.720 | Are you really gonna throw that away?

03:06:10.540 | Like, there's been like one or two times in history

03:06:12.240 | in the US, right, where like the non-incumbent,

03:06:14.440 | the parties put somebody else up?

03:06:16.200 | - Yeah, I mean, the concern is like the,

03:06:18.960 | just the age and the mental decline,

03:06:21.980 | just the wear and tear of the campaign,

03:06:26.040 | all of that kind of stuff.

03:06:26.880 | All of the speech you have to make,

03:06:28.120 | the debates and all that kind of stuff.

03:06:29.600 | - Yeah, I guess we'll see what happens.

03:06:31.040 | (laughing)

03:06:32.480 | What?

03:06:33.320 | - The least excited.

03:06:34.920 | - I mean, two years from now is a long time.

03:06:36.560 | At his current mental state, he could run and do it.

03:06:39.920 | He could do a possible job.

03:06:40.840 | In two years, man, I don't know.

03:06:42.520 | I've seen videos of Bill Clinton recently.

03:06:43.880 | He's looking pretty rough.

03:06:45.180 | You know, if Biden is looking a lot more rough,

03:06:48.280 | worse for wear in two years,

03:06:49.360 | then maybe they actually do have to dig out another person

03:06:53.520 | for running, who knows?

03:06:54.680 | - What do you think about Trump?

03:06:58.920 | When he won in 2016, I think is when you came to fruition,

03:07:03.920 | politically speaking.

03:07:05.720 | So what do you think his winning

03:07:07.320 | the 2016 election represents?

03:07:11.320 | - So for me, the reason why I got into politics

03:07:16.160 | was Trump was like this new epistemic force

03:07:20.160 | in American politics that you kind of have to flirt

03:07:24.540 | with facts before, even if you wanted to be non-factual.

03:07:27.040 | He super didn't care.

03:07:28.880 | Lying was like a first language to him,

03:07:30.560 | just like in speaking in terms of like,

03:07:32.600 | the way that he used language to just say to you

03:07:35.420 | what he felt like you needed to hear to support him

03:07:37.920 | and not care at all about what is going on,

03:07:40.400 | about, yeah, that's what Trump represented to me

03:07:43.840 | in terms of like things that I cared about.

03:07:46.240 | He also represents a lot more, obviously,

03:07:47.680 | that there was this undercurrent of American opinion

03:07:49.760 | that a lot of people didn't know still existed,

03:07:51.720 | and it did, he got elected.

03:07:53.720 | That the Overton window was misidentified

03:07:55.420 | by even a large amount of the Republican Party.

03:07:57.480 | That populism was a lot more popular

03:07:59.280 | than a lot of people figured, you know?

03:08:01.280 | Yeah, there's a lot that I guess he represented.

03:08:03.080 | - Do you think Trump should have been banned from Twitter?

03:08:06.320 | Can you make the case for and against it?

03:08:08.040 | So you're a big supporter of free speech.

03:08:10.240 | - Yeah, so the case in favor of it.

03:08:13.080 | - Do you think he should be brought back as Elon tweeted?

03:08:16.800 | - Yeah, because if he gets brought back,

03:08:17.640 | there's a higher chance that I'll be brought back.

03:08:19.120 | So I'm supporting that all the way.

03:08:20.680 | Thank you, Elon, unban my account.

03:08:22.680 | - So because you called me weak spine,

03:08:26.640 | I'm gonna have to message Elon.

03:08:28.200 | - Okay, @OmniDestiny, it was a verified Twitter account.

03:08:30.760 | - OmniDestiny. - No, no, I'm just kidding.

03:08:32.840 | - Why'd you get banned from Twitter, Destiny?

03:08:34.560 | - I don't know. - I'll add that to Elon.

03:08:37.240 | - I saw that there was a screenshot of you

03:08:40.400 | referring to the rape of somebody.

03:08:43.960 | - Okay, that was on an older Twitter account,

03:08:45.640 | and that was a bad tweet.

03:08:46.680 | - You have multiple Twitter accounts,

03:08:48.520 | so you're trying to go around the bans

03:08:51.360 | that you keep getting.

03:08:52.360 | - Okay, hold on.

03:08:53.520 | You're slandering me a lot right now.

03:08:55.440 | Let's get the facts straight, okay?

03:08:57.000 | I don't even remember why my first account got banned,

03:08:59.000 | but it was a wild account.

03:09:00.280 | I tweeted some wildly inappropriate things.

03:09:02.400 | - You regret? - I don't like that word.

03:09:03.880 | I'm gonna give the answer that most people give.

03:09:05.080 | It's like, I don't regret it 'cause I learned a lot.

03:09:06.760 | So I'm glad I had the bad experiences that I did.

03:09:08.360 | - Why don't you like the word regret?

03:09:10.120 | - I think if we look at where we are,

03:09:13.720 | how do you feel about determinism?

03:09:15.640 | (Lex laughing)

03:09:18.080 | I believe in the hardest of determinism.

03:09:20.320 | That's who I am, okay?

03:09:21.520 | So who I am today is the culmination

03:09:24.120 | of everything that's occurred in the past.

03:09:25.400 | - But I believe you speaking, sorry to interrupt.

03:09:28.240 | I believe in you speaking about regret

03:09:31.360 | is a nice way to communicate

03:09:33.800 | that in this deterministic world,

03:09:35.780 | you've analyzed the acts of the past

03:09:38.160 | and you're no longer that person.

03:09:39.800 | - Yeah, of course, for sure.

03:09:40.880 | - That's what regret usually means.

03:09:43.120 | - Okay, thanks for giving me the human explanation.

03:09:44.800 | Okay, true.

03:09:45.640 | So in that sense, there's a lot of things I've done

03:09:46.880 | that I regret.

03:09:48.000 | - Oh, what are you?

03:09:48.920 | You're not human, you're a bot?

03:09:50.440 | - NPC is my preferred term. - Okay, all right.

03:09:54.040 | - I wish I would have been smart enough at the time

03:09:56.600 | to not have to have had made those mistakes.

03:09:58.840 | - Okay. - There you go.

03:09:59.680 | - Good job.

03:10:00.760 | - But yeah, obviously really dumb,

03:10:02.240 | really crazy off the wall tweets.

03:10:04.400 | But that account got banned.

03:10:05.240 | And then I made another account called,

03:10:08.840 | I can't believe I'm giving you a history

03:10:09.680 | of my Twitter accounts,

03:10:10.520 | but another account called Omni Destiny.

03:10:11.600 | - It's an honor.

03:10:12.440 | - And that was my, I got verified.

03:10:14.560 | I was cool, they let me have that account

03:10:16.280 | 'cause originally they banned it and I said appeal

03:10:17.760 | and I was like, oh, let me have one more.

03:10:18.960 | And back then Twitter was cool

03:10:20.240 | and they're like, okay, go for it.

03:10:21.540 | And that account last for a long time.

03:10:23.040 | And I don't actually know 100% why that account got banned.

03:10:27.580 | I believe that the tweet that showed up in the final,

03:10:31.400 | I got banned for hate speech.

03:10:33.360 | And it was because I was,

03:10:34.920 | there was a picture that I tweeted

03:10:36.480 | with three different alt writers

03:10:38.140 | that are kind of like neo-Nazi people.

03:10:39.520 | And they were all like mixed race people.

03:10:42.020 | And I said like the new alt right looks

03:10:43.360 | like a Disney Channel original movie

03:10:45.200 | in terms of racial composition.

03:10:46.520 | And somehow they got flagged for instigating violence

03:10:50.200 | against minorities I think.

03:10:51.480 | And I think that's the tweet that got me banned

03:10:53.280 | 'cause I think that's what showed up in the final report.

03:10:54.880 | But I don't know, maybe there were other reasons

03:10:56.480 | 'cause nobody ever communicates.

03:10:57.460 | But ever since that account went under,

03:10:59.520 | it's just been ban evading ever since so.

03:11:02.160 | - Oh, ban evading ever since.

03:11:04.120 | - So all my new accounts that I've got banned

03:11:05.240 | just get banned 'cause they finally figured out it's me

03:11:06.800 | and then they ban evade.

03:11:07.640 | There's like one dude at Twitter HQ

03:11:08.920 | who's like constantly looking for my new accounts

03:11:12.160 | and they get me, yeah.

03:11:13.200 | - Yeah.

03:11:14.240 | - Anyway, yeah.

03:11:15.400 | - So post.

03:11:17.200 | - Post Trump world.

03:11:19.080 | - Do you think, okay, I mean this.

03:11:20.560 | - Oh, should he be banned?

03:11:21.400 | Oh, you asked me to make both cases.

03:11:23.120 | Should he be banned?

03:11:25.200 | I mean, damn dude, when you're tweeting out shit

03:11:26.920 | that's arguably leading to stuff like January 6th,

03:11:29.060 | I can understand why.

03:11:30.780 | Because it's like, what else is this wild dude

03:11:32.320 | gonna tweet out?

03:11:33.160 | Like is he gonna start instigating other violent events?

03:11:34.760 | So I'm sympathetic towards the like,

03:11:35.960 | okay, well he can't just be here saying stuff like this.

03:11:38.360 | That's insane, we're gonna ban him.

03:11:40.120 | I'm sympathetic.

03:11:40.960 | - Because it's instigating actual physical violence

03:11:44.320 | in the physical world.

03:11:45.560 | - Yeah, like if I were to tweet stuff like that,

03:11:46.960 | I would get banned probably.

03:11:48.720 | On the flip side, this is the President of the United States.

03:11:51.400 | It seems like he's like doing presidential decree

03:11:53.560 | by social media sometimes.

03:11:55.200 | Like is it really right that one public or private,

03:11:58.120 | I should say, one private company can like erase

03:12:01.620 | the President of the United States words

03:12:03.220 | from the eyes of a lot of Americans

03:12:04.740 | that are using these social media feeds?

03:12:06.940 | - And one big one, which I for sure am against,

03:12:10.860 | is the permanent ban.

03:12:12.660 | - Yeah, I don't like that, I hate that.

03:12:13.960 | Even in my community, if somebody comes back

03:12:15.620 | after like a year, like I mean--

03:12:17.580 | - Did you just compare yourself

03:12:18.580 | to the President of the United States?

03:12:19.940 | - No, I compare myself to Twitter

03:12:20.820 | banning the President of the United States.

03:12:22.140 | Let me put it this way, if I ban Donald Trump

03:12:23.660 | in my chat room, I'd unban him in a year.

03:12:26.100 | - A year? - Yeah.

03:12:27.300 | - What's the process for unbanning Donald Trump?

03:12:29.520 | What would he have to do?

03:12:31.000 | - Usually people send me an email,

03:12:32.120 | and they're like, "Listen, I did this stuff.

03:12:33.420 | "I'm sorry I was dumb.

03:12:34.460 | "I'll give him another chance."

03:12:35.680 | - But a year, what if they send an email a month later?

03:12:38.620 | - Usually I'll unban him.

03:12:39.740 | That's usually my policy.

03:12:40.580 | I ban pretty quickly in my community,

03:12:41.620 | but if you ever ask me to come back--

03:12:42.460 | - You're a big softie.

03:12:43.460 | - Yeah, I usually let him back, yeah.

03:12:45.080 | Well, because I used to be the worst type

03:12:47.160 | of internet person, and I think I'm a little bit better

03:12:49.600 | than I used to be, so.

03:12:50.440 | - Now that you're older.

03:12:51.340 | - Yeah, now that I've matured, yeah, of course.

03:12:53.680 | Age bestows a wisdom that just can't be gotten any other way.

03:12:56.660 | - What's your sense in general?

03:12:57.860 | Is there something interesting you could say

03:12:59.460 | about your view on free speech?

03:13:01.240 | It seems like one of those terms

03:13:02.500 | that's also overused to mean a lot of different things.

03:13:05.780 | What does it mean to you?

03:13:06.860 | - If you have a democratic style of governance,

03:13:09.980 | you are entrusting people with one of the most awesome

03:13:13.540 | and radical of responsibilities,

03:13:15.180 | and that's saying that you're going to pick the people

03:13:17.220 | that are gonna make some of the hardest decisions

03:13:18.820 | in all of human history.

03:13:20.060 | If you're gonna trust people to vote correctly,

03:13:22.780 | you have to be able to trust them

03:13:24.040 | to have open and honest dialogue with each other.

03:13:25.860 | Whether that's Nazis or KKK people or whoever talking,

03:13:29.560 | you have to believe that your people

03:13:31.540 | are going to be able to rise above

03:13:32.920 | and make the correct determinations

03:13:34.420 | when they hear these types of speeches.

03:13:36.180 | And if you're so worried that somebody's gonna hear

03:13:38.840 | a certain political figure,

03:13:39.940 | and they're gonna be completely radicalized instantly,

03:13:42.100 | then what that tells me is that you don't have enough faith

03:13:44.200 | in humans for democracy to be a viable institution,

03:13:46.820 | which is fine.

03:13:47.800 | You can be anti-democratic,

03:13:49.140 | but I don't think you can be pro-democracy

03:13:50.980 | and anti-free speech.

03:13:52.720 | Within reason.

03:13:53.900 | - So what's the within reason?

03:13:55.420 | - So I mean, you can't post like child porn

03:13:57.300 | or something on Twitter

03:13:58.140 | or people try to get you on that stuff.

03:13:59.460 | Or like direct calls to violence are probably not,

03:14:01.540 | you shouldn't be tweeting out like,

03:14:02.380 | "We're gonna meet up tomorrow and go bomb, blah, blah, blah."

03:14:03.940 | Probably not.

03:14:04.780 | - So do you think it's okay to allow racism

03:14:06.300 | and antisemitism and hate speech?

03:14:09.700 | - Hate speech, yes,

03:14:12.660 | because that can be very broadly defined.

03:14:15.300 | I can understand there being some basic rules

03:14:17.700 | of like no slurs on like a platform

03:14:20.300 | that gets into like acceptable forms of moderation

03:14:22.580 | or like excessive harassment and bullying,

03:14:24.440 | I can understand.

03:14:25.860 | But past that, when the moderation becomes ideological,

03:14:29.940 | I get a little bit nervous

03:14:31.080 | because there's a whole other host.

03:14:33.900 | - Yeah, of course it's all a gray area,

03:14:36.080 | but when it feels like ideology

03:14:38.460 | has seeped into the censorship, not good.

03:14:40.880 | Yeah, which it's so fascinating to think,

03:14:43.880 | especially now that Elon bought Twitter,

03:14:45.640 | how do you engineer a system

03:14:48.600 | that prevents ideology from seeping in

03:14:52.200 | and nevertheless is able to create a platform

03:14:55.600 | that has healthy conversations?

03:14:57.480 | 'Cause if you have one guy

03:14:58.360 | who's just screaming nonsense nonstop,

03:15:00.680 | it has this effect where the quiet voices

03:15:04.340 | at the back of the room are silenced.

03:15:06.480 | So like, that's what you usually don't talk about.

03:15:09.040 | Like if you let one annoying, loud person in,

03:15:12.200 | that's actually censoring the voice of a lot of people

03:15:14.360 | that would like to speak, but they don't get a chance.

03:15:16.420 | - That's one of the things,

03:15:17.260 | especially around like trans discourse,

03:15:18.920 | I have to constantly do that like reminder for my audience

03:15:21.800 | is like when I'm dealing with these types of people

03:15:23.560 | on the internet, a lot of them might seem really crazy.

03:15:25.520 | A lot of these types of people might seem insane,

03:15:27.040 | but like in the real world,

03:15:28.160 | outside of like the crazy Twitter activist world,

03:15:30.400 | like the vast majority of people you're meeting

03:15:32.400 | from LGBT communities are like the coolest,

03:15:34.400 | normalest people.

03:15:35.280 | All they want is the like right to live their life

03:15:37.080 | in the way they want to and to be like unobstructed

03:15:39.040 | and like, yeah.

03:15:40.040 | But people will get this impression

03:15:41.440 | of like an online activist,

03:15:42.760 | like a vegan or LGBT person or whatever.

03:15:45.320 | And then they think that every single person

03:15:46.720 | in real life is like that

03:15:47.640 | and it's a really negative stereotype.

03:15:49.920 | And then even the other people in that group.

03:15:52.360 | - Oh, is Melina coming over?

03:15:53.720 | - Oh yeah, I asked her, I don't know if that's her.

03:15:55.400 | - Okay, Melina just joined us.

03:15:57.400 | What were we talking about?

03:15:58.760 | Was it interesting?

03:15:59.680 | - You were saying that you were gonna talk to Elon

03:16:02.400 | about getting @OmniDestiny,

03:16:04.080 | the verified Twitter account unbanned.

03:16:05.360 | I said, that's so-

03:16:06.180 | - That sounds like a lie.

03:16:07.020 | - That's so gracious of you.

03:16:07.840 | I can't even believe you would do that for me.

03:16:09.640 | - And then you admitted that you tried to evade the ban

03:16:12.120 | multiple times, which I'm sure would be very looked upon.

03:16:15.320 | - You know, I heard that in Norway,

03:16:16.600 | in their prison system,

03:16:17.520 | they don't actually punish you for trying to escape jail

03:16:19.320 | 'cause that's like the natural human thing to do.

03:16:20.880 | - They hug you?

03:16:21.720 | What do they do?

03:16:22.540 | - I don't know if they, but they don't punish you

03:16:23.380 | 'cause of course you're trying to be free.

03:16:24.480 | That's all I'm trying to be on Twitter.

03:16:25.680 | I'm just trying to be free.

03:16:26.520 | - Oh, that's the natural humanistic-

03:16:27.960 | - Yeah, that's the natural, of course, it's the banning of it.

03:16:30.120 | - You're not a destructive force, you're just-

03:16:31.560 | - No, I'm a force for good.

03:16:33.200 | That's why all my accounts only get banned

03:16:34.280 | for banning and evading.

03:16:35.120 | I don't get banned for doing bad things.

03:16:36.320 | And I'm a progressive show.

03:16:37.440 | I'm like far left.

03:16:38.740 | I love like progressive causes.

03:16:40.840 | - I thought this is what you criticized Hasan for being.

03:16:43.760 | - I show them from a place of first principles,

03:16:45.640 | not from a mindless AI echoing kind of thing.

03:16:48.640 | - Okay, so you're a free thinking bot.

03:16:50.840 | - Yeah, exactly.

03:16:51.920 | - All right, cool.

03:16:52.920 | Well, I'm sure we'll return to some politics.

03:16:54.560 | That was beautiful.

03:16:55.520 | Malia, can you tell us about yourself?

03:16:59.280 | You're also a fellow streamer.

03:17:00.760 | - Yes. - What's your story?

03:17:01.600 | - I stream and I started streaming

03:17:03.040 | because I met him basically, kind of,

03:17:05.400 | but I don't do the politics.

03:17:06.840 | I do like travels or talk about relationships,

03:17:10.000 | talk to my audience basically.

03:17:12.480 | - You're from that part of the world, right?

03:17:14.040 | Sweden? - Yeah, exactly.

03:17:14.880 | - So did you escape from prison and they didn't?

03:17:17.120 | - That was Norway.

03:17:17.960 | You just went to Norway.

03:17:19.160 | - It's different?

03:17:20.000 | - It's a different.

03:17:20.840 | - I actually really, I've been to Sweden a bunch of times.

03:17:22.840 | I love it.

03:17:23.680 | There's a tech sector there that's really like flourishing.

03:17:26.760 | - Where did you go?

03:17:27.680 | Which city?

03:17:28.520 | - I went to Stockholm.

03:17:29.440 | I think I gave a few lectures there.

03:17:30.860 | There's a vibrant tech sector, it was cool.

03:17:33.040 | And people are super nice.

03:17:34.920 | - Yeah, we're friendly.

03:17:36.640 | We're not like very deep.

03:17:37.960 | Like we don't really have much deep conversation.

03:17:39.720 | It's like a meta conversation.

03:17:40.720 | - Oh, there's not many intellectuals that come from Sweden?

03:17:43.480 | - We don't really speak very highly of ourselves.

03:17:45.120 | We're kind of like just chill all the time.

03:17:46.920 | We don't make a scene.

03:17:47.920 | We don't, we're just like, you know.

03:17:50.560 | - Do you know what the name for that is?

03:17:51.560 | There's a specific name for it.

03:17:52.880 | - Jantelagen.

03:17:53.840 | - Yeah, Jantelagen.

03:17:54.680 | - Yeah, Jantelagen, yeah.

03:17:55.840 | - Oh, there's a philosophy behind it.

03:17:57.320 | - When you're part of like Sweden or Norway,

03:17:58.920 | you don't talk too highly of yourself

03:18:00.720 | 'cause it's seen as kind of like rude.

03:18:01.960 | Like think of like America, except the exact opposite.

03:18:04.240 | - You don't even really wanna like,

03:18:05.160 | you don't wanna make yourself into a victim too much.

03:18:07.120 | You don't wanna be too much of anything.

03:18:08.440 | You're just like sticking to the group.

03:18:10.480 | Don't make big scene about yourself.

03:18:12.880 | - But that said, you came here and you were,

03:18:16.160 | you put yourself in front of a camera and became a streamer.

03:18:18.720 | - Yeah, do you understand how weird that is

03:18:19.880 | for my friends in Sweden?

03:18:21.840 | - Do you have anxiety?

03:18:22.680 | - I just didn't talk about myself

03:18:23.840 | and just like make a big deal about myself

03:18:25.640 | for hours every day.

03:18:26.480 | - Was that like terrifying?

03:18:27.560 | Did you have anxiety about that?

03:18:28.760 | - No, 'cause I don't see them,

03:18:30.000 | but then I come back and I'm like, ooh.

03:18:31.800 | (laughs)

03:18:32.640 | - Also, what do you feel like when you're actually streaming?

03:18:34.720 | You feel like you're just alone in a room?

03:18:37.080 | One-on-one type thing?

03:18:37.920 | - No, I see Chad and I'm thinking,

03:18:40.040 | oh, they're like little fairies.

03:18:41.120 | They're not really real.

03:18:41.960 | They're just like out there.

03:18:42.780 | I don't know what they look like.

03:18:43.620 | I just see little names and they're just cute.

03:18:46.080 | Colors, you know?

03:18:46.920 | - You're talking to little fairies inside your head.

03:18:48.520 | - Yes, I do.

03:18:49.360 | - Is that how you feel about Chad?

03:18:50.680 | - They're demons for me.

03:18:51.640 | - They're demons?

03:18:52.480 | Okay, my Anna fairies.

03:18:54.080 | - Are they, so is Chad a source of stress or happiness?

03:18:56.440 | Like, is there a--

03:18:57.280 | - No, for me, it's a source of happiness.

03:18:58.840 | I've been very intentional with like the construction

03:19:01.080 | of my community, so I'm really happy with where it's at.

03:19:03.360 | - How are you able to actually have deep political discourse

03:19:06.040 | while playing a video game at the same time?

03:19:08.240 | - I have a really good chat room

03:19:10.120 | in terms of like the way

03:19:10.960 | that people engage in conversations.

03:19:12.200 | Like, I was one of the earliest people

03:19:14.100 | to embrace the philosophy of like,

03:19:16.560 | I am in total control of what people watch me think,

03:19:19.620 | that like I have a high level of responsibility

03:19:22.120 | for how they conduct themselves,

03:19:23.520 | and that if I conduct myself in a certain way,

03:19:25.120 | I can expect a certain level of conduct from them.

03:19:26.880 | And for the most part, it's like worked pretty well

03:19:28.240 | for the past, you know, nine or 10 years, yeah.

03:19:30.920 | - What about the actual playing of the game?

03:19:32.760 | Like, you're able to parallelize the brain, like--

03:19:35.640 | - Oh.

03:19:36.480 | - Like it seems, like "Factory" seems

03:19:37.840 | like a super complex game.

03:19:39.120 | - Yeah, I don't actually think that's possible.

03:19:40.560 | I don't think multitasking for a human brain is possible.

03:19:43.320 | If you see me playing a game,

03:19:44.680 | usually what's happening is the conversation is like,

03:19:47.020 | I've had it a million times, so I'm not thinking about it.

03:19:48.880 | I've automated that.

03:19:49.860 | Or if the conversation is very challenging,

03:19:52.360 | then if you watch me,

03:19:53.200 | if you really watch what's happening,

03:19:54.320 | I'm probably just running around in circles

03:19:55.360 | 'cause I have to think about the conversation.

03:19:56.800 | - Okay, because with "Factory,"

03:19:58.320 | it looks like a lot of stuff is going on.

03:19:59.760 | - Sometimes, yeah.

03:20:00.600 | - So it's hard for a person who hasn't played the game

03:20:03.920 | to detect that you're not actually--

03:20:04.760 | - Does that come off as like,

03:20:05.680 | you're super intelligent and multitask?

03:20:07.360 | Or does it come off as like,

03:20:08.520 | he's not interested in this conversation at all?

03:20:10.520 | - Yeah.

03:20:11.360 | - Yeah, there's a coolness to it,

03:20:12.600 | like when you're not paying attention.

03:20:14.160 | Like, if you're looking elsewhere,

03:20:17.120 | like you're checking your phone,

03:20:18.180 | you're too cool for this conversation.

03:20:19.560 | There is a sense like that.

03:20:20.400 | - Yeah, the reality is though, is if you watch,

03:20:22.280 | it was easier to see in "Minecraft,"

03:20:23.760 | 'cause in "Minecraft,"

03:20:24.580 | when there was a challenging conversation,

03:20:25.640 | if you watch me play,

03:20:26.480 | I'm literally just running around and jumping in circles

03:20:28.240 | 'cause I have to think about the conversation 100%.

03:20:30.040 | I can't do a complicated task

03:20:31.280 | and think about the conversation.

03:20:32.780 | Or like, the people always joke in my chat,

03:20:34.420 | like, oh no, the notepad came out.

03:20:35.960 | If it's a really challenging conversation,

03:20:37.440 | I'll get rid of the game and I'll bring out a notepad

03:20:39.280 | and I'll start writing stuff down

03:20:40.200 | to keep track of what's going on, yeah.

03:20:42.160 | - So what kind of stuff do you stream?

03:20:44.080 | So advice, you talk about--

03:20:45.560 | - Yeah, like either I talk to chat

03:20:46.800 | or I travel around, basically.

03:20:48.920 | Like, have conversations or we like, go to countries.

03:20:52.960 | I've been to like Italy.

03:20:54.080 | I was in Italy for like one and a half months,

03:20:56.480 | just like traveling around alone,

03:20:58.320 | going to cities, like having like my camera with me

03:21:01.560 | and like streaming for hours.

03:21:03.740 | - Where's the coolest place you've been to?

03:21:06.080 | - Ever?

03:21:06.920 | It's probably New Zealand.

03:21:08.160 | - New Zealand?

03:21:09.000 | - I think so.

03:21:09.840 | After that, it's probably gonna be Italy, I think.

03:21:11.600 | Because I like history and yeah.

03:21:13.320 | - Oh, so both history, 'cause New Zealand is also beautiful.

03:21:16.640 | So it's both natural beauty and historical beauty.

03:21:19.760 | - Yeah, for sure.

03:21:21.120 | I think I just really like the Polynesian sort of culture.

03:21:23.840 | I think it's very interesting.

03:21:25.120 | Like the ocean people and it's just really beautiful.

03:21:27.720 | People are very relaxed, chill.

03:21:28.880 | They're very far away, which is interesting as well

03:21:31.800 | 'cause whenever they talk about politics

03:21:33.480 | or they talk about just like the world,

03:21:36.720 | it feels really far away.

03:21:38.560 | - So where's home for you?

03:21:39.680 | Is Austin home?

03:21:40.640 | - It's home for me.

03:21:43.160 | - So a human being is home?

03:21:45.080 | - Yeah.

03:21:45.920 | - We've lived in a lot of different places

03:21:47.000 | and traveled around a lot.

03:21:47.840 | So that's what you think of home is like humans?

03:21:50.160 | - I think so, yeah.

03:21:52.000 | I mean, if there's gonna be a place,

03:21:53.840 | it's probably gonna be like my childhood places probably.

03:21:57.200 | - Yeah.

03:21:58.040 | - Like my old country house or something like that.

03:21:59.560 | We don't have it anymore,

03:22:00.400 | but like that's like home for me, I guess.

03:22:03.240 | - So how'd you guys meet each other?

03:22:05.080 | You're currently married.

03:22:06.520 | - Yes.

03:22:07.520 | - To each other, yeah.

03:22:08.360 | - Yeah.

03:22:09.200 | - To each other.

03:22:10.020 | (laughing)

03:22:11.880 | - Just making sure we're on the same page.

03:22:13.560 | - All right, cool.

03:22:14.520 | How'd you guys meet?

03:22:15.880 | - I was watching his YouTube stuff like 2018, I think,

03:22:19.840 | like because it was the Swedish election around that time

03:22:21.940 | and I was interested in politics.

03:22:23.680 | And then I think he said in one of his videos

03:22:27.400 | that he had an Instagram

03:22:28.880 | and that he needed people to stop DMing him

03:22:31.360 | that wasn't PewDiePie's.

03:22:32.640 | And then I messaged him and said,

03:22:34.080 | "Am I PewDiePie?"

03:22:35.360 | And then you replied in like two minutes.

03:22:38.080 | And then that's when I was in New Zealand.

03:22:41.360 | And I guess you wanted to escape America

03:22:44.440 | or like LA for a little bit and then flew to New Zealand.

03:22:48.240 | - Where were you mentally there?

03:22:50.680 | 'Cause we've talked through this timeline.

03:22:52.560 | Where's 2018?

03:22:54.120 | - Was it 18, 19?

03:22:55.800 | - Where was the low point?

03:22:57.520 | Or that was way earlier?

03:22:58.560 | - Low point, carpet cleaning, that was like 2010.

03:23:02.000 | - Oh, okay.

03:23:02.840 | - 2018 was probably your peak.

03:23:04.280 | - Every day now is my peak.

03:23:06.520 | What do you mean?

03:23:07.360 | That was my peak.

03:23:08.180 | Why would you say that?

03:23:09.020 | - You've been through that, okay?

03:23:09.840 | - Nobody ever admits being past their prime.

03:23:11.840 | Just so you know.

03:23:13.040 | - Well, I mean, my prime is still coming up.

03:23:15.000 | - It was probably around the time

03:23:16.240 | where you were getting a lot of lefties through your community

03:23:18.720 | and you were really like thinking about

03:23:20.240 | that they would go too far.

03:23:21.400 | - Maybe.

03:23:22.240 | I think that was still when Hasan and Vosh

03:23:23.480 | were both in my community.

03:23:24.440 | - Exactly.

03:23:25.280 | So I would say it feels like there was not really

03:23:27.360 | like much issues when it comes to your stuff

03:23:30.240 | or like your work stuff back then.

03:23:31.640 | - Oh, something we didn't talk about is that like,

03:23:33.520 | there were no politics on Twitch.

03:23:34.840 | I exclusively inhabited that place for like two years

03:23:37.600 | 'cause nobody else did it.

03:23:38.420 | 'Cause it was a really toxic environment for politics.

03:23:40.160 | So for a couple of years as it grew,

03:23:42.120 | like I kind of grew the whole space

03:23:43.800 | 'cause it wasn't, nobody was doing it yet.

03:23:44.960 | - What did that look like?

03:23:45.800 | You're having like political debates, political discourse.

03:23:49.840 | - Yeah, mainly like going into YouTube people

03:23:51.880 | to try to argue with them or just doing politics on stream,

03:23:54.080 | like reading stories, researching stuff,

03:23:55.560 | talking about stuff.

03:23:56.520 | But there's not like other people on Twitch

03:23:57.960 | to debate about politics 'cause there was no politics.

03:24:00.120 | It was, yeah.

03:24:01.000 | - Was there a debate in the space of communism,

03:24:04.000 | socialism, social Democrats, kind of like this?

03:24:07.360 | Are you trying to outline your own position

03:24:09.000 | during that time?

03:24:09.840 | - I think it was mainly me fighting against conservatives

03:24:11.960 | 'cause it was like Trump stuff.

03:24:13.200 | And then it was coming off the back of like,

03:24:14.860 | there was this movement called Gamergate

03:24:16.400 | and there was all this anti-SJW stuff on the internet.

03:24:18.760 | And I was like the SJW, like the progressive

03:24:21.000 | that was fighting on the progressive side of things.

03:24:22.920 | So I think that's what I was known for.

03:24:24.080 | But I was fighting with people off of Twitch

03:24:25.540 | 'cause on Twitch,

03:24:26.380 | there weren't very many political discussions happening.

03:24:28.240 | - So you were holding the SJW flag.

03:24:30.880 | - Yeah.

03:24:31.720 | - To what degree do you still hold it?

03:24:34.360 | Like what's the best, what's the steel man case for SJW?

03:24:37.240 | - I mean, like I'm still very much that SJW from 2018, 2019,

03:24:40.680 | but the positions have moved so much farther left

03:24:42.880 | that some people might not call me that anymore.

03:24:45.080 | I'm not sure.

03:24:45.900 | It depends on who I'm talking to.

03:24:46.740 | - So it's basically, what is social justice?

03:24:48.800 | Were you like being sensitive to the experience of others?

03:24:51.840 | - Yeah, being sensitive and empathetic

03:24:53.280 | towards the experience of others

03:24:54.220 | and then trying to build a better world

03:24:55.400 | that like suits as many different types of people

03:24:57.000 | as possible while being like aware of like their needs.

03:24:59.840 | - Okay.

03:25:00.680 | So you guys met, what's from your perspective?

03:25:04.200 | Is that, is she telling lies?

03:25:06.440 | Is it accurate?

03:25:07.280 | - No, it's pretty accurate.

03:25:08.880 | - Okay, when'd you guys actually meet?

03:25:11.080 | - I flew out in 2019.

03:25:14.000 | - 19, yeah, in like in February.

03:25:15.400 | - Yeah, basically there was like weird stuff happening in LA.

03:25:17.760 | I just come off of kind of a weird,

03:25:19.160 | not kind of sort of relationship.

03:25:21.080 | And I just wanted to like go away for a while.

03:25:22.960 | Another company reached out to me

03:25:24.360 | and they had like a fun streaming device.

03:25:25.820 | And they said they'd sponsor a trip if I went somewhere.

03:25:27.400 | And I was like, oh, well, I know this person.

03:25:28.600 | I know a couple of people in New Zealand.

03:25:30.120 | Melina's one of them.

03:25:30.960 | It's like, I'll go to New Zealand.

03:25:31.780 | New Zealand, it'll be fun.

03:25:33.000 | And yeah, I did that for two weeks.

03:25:34.600 | - Do you guys believe in love?

03:25:36.320 | I feel like you lack the gotcha got us into this.

03:25:41.400 | I'm not sure to the degree to which you have human emotions.

03:25:44.000 | - I have quite a few.

03:25:45.200 | - Okay.

03:25:46.280 | From your perspective, when did you fall in love with Melina?

03:25:49.600 | - When did you fall in love with Meli Mel?

03:25:52.320 | - The minute I saw her.

03:25:53.600 | I don't know, our first two weeks together

03:25:57.120 | were a lot of fun.

03:25:57.960 | We had a lot of chemistry in person.

03:26:00.440 | - I was kind of shocked that I wasn't thinking about it.

03:26:02.560 | 'Cause it was like, we spent like a week together

03:26:04.440 | and you said, I really want to tell you something.

03:26:06.400 | And you were like stalling that for the longest time.

03:26:09.120 | - I think she was, oh, she said like, I love you?

03:26:12.200 | - No, he basically just said like,

03:26:14.400 | I really like you and it never really happens.

03:26:16.080 | That's what he said.

03:26:16.920 | And I was like, oh, and I thought, hey, I thought.

03:26:19.840 | - So let's still run, we said Trump getting banned

03:26:23.480 | from Twitter, is that what we were talking about before?

03:26:25.820 | - Oh yeah.

03:26:26.660 | - So you agreed to me coming on here.

03:26:28.060 | Of course I'm gonna be doing this to you.

03:26:30.400 | - So how long did that take, two weeks you said?

03:26:32.400 | - That took like a week.

03:26:33.240 | No, I don't know, I think it was just like.

03:26:34.700 | - Thing is my mind processes like information so quickly.

03:26:37.260 | Two weeks to somebody like you is actually like years for me.

03:26:40.260 | - Oh, like me, yeah.

03:26:41.660 | So there was like a lot of like factorial type

03:26:44.420 | of strategic thinking.

03:26:45.260 | - Yeah, going on.

03:26:46.260 | I was seeing like all the events,

03:26:48.220 | like Dr. Strange or whatever in the Avengers

03:26:50.460 | when he's like seeing into all the futures.

03:26:51.300 | - When you saw me, you just saw the future.

03:26:53.580 | - Yeah, I was looking at all of them, yeah.

03:26:55.300 | - So you're doing like some game theoretic simulation

03:26:57.660 | of all the possible outcomes.

03:26:58.940 | - Yeah, exactly.

03:26:59.980 | - Okay.

03:27:01.300 | - But no, yeah, it was probably pretty soon I realized

03:27:02.900 | that we had a lot of chemistry.

03:27:03.740 | I think before I left after my two weeks there,

03:27:05.900 | I was like, we need to make sure you get like a ticket

03:27:07.500 | to come visit me in the United States

03:27:08.700 | 'cause it'll be fun and everything.

03:27:09.540 | - And I kind of decided that last minute too.

03:27:11.860 | It was like really like five hours before your flight back.

03:27:14.620 | We kind of realized because it was kind of like men

03:27:17.100 | is just like a one time thing and then that was it.

03:27:19.540 | But we're like, oh no, this is a lot of fun.

03:27:20.860 | We should probably hang out again.

03:27:21.700 | - Oh, so you realized you would miss each other.

03:27:24.540 | - Yeah.

03:27:25.380 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:27:26.220 | - This was a one time thing.

03:27:27.040 | The melancholy side of love.

03:27:27.880 | Okay, when did you fall in love with Steven?

03:27:29.700 | - I thought he like hated me.

03:27:30.980 | I don't know, I thought, not hated me.

03:27:32.780 | - She still thinks I hate her.

03:27:33.620 | - But no, no, I remember like when he said

03:27:37.420 | that he really liked me, I was a little shocked about that

03:27:39.940 | 'cause I don't know, there was a lot of like random things

03:27:42.900 | happening in New Zealand.

03:27:43.740 | It was a lot of fun, but it was definitely

03:27:45.460 | like very interesting like things that happened

03:27:48.300 | because I was like around a lot of other people as well.

03:27:50.820 | So I thought he might've had like a really bad time.

03:27:53.500 | But when he said that, I was thinking about it more

03:27:55.300 | and then we spent like more time together

03:27:57.540 | like a week after that and then it felt like

03:27:59.460 | that was more like real.

03:28:00.780 | And I think when he was about to leave,

03:28:02.620 | I kind of realized like, no, I really like him.

03:28:04.660 | - Do you guys ever say love to each other?

03:28:07.460 | Like, I love you?

03:28:08.580 | - Yeah, of course, yeah.

03:28:09.420 | - Okay, all right.

03:28:10.660 | I wasn't sure.

03:28:11.500 | - Why would you ask that?

03:28:12.320 | What has he said before?

03:28:13.160 | - 'Cause I haven't, I don't think I've heard you speak.

03:28:16.140 | The only time I've heard Steven talk about love

03:28:18.220 | is when you're like criticizing the Red Pill community

03:28:21.460 | saying they don't ever talk about love in relationships.

03:28:24.220 | - Almost all the time I'm giving criticism to people.

03:28:26.260 | Like I said, I'm kind of stepping in.

03:28:27.580 | I'm very disconnected from my own emotional experience

03:28:29.460 | 'cause I'm trying to talk within there.

03:28:31.340 | So it's pretty rare that I'll talk about my--

03:28:32.700 | - What is your own emotional experience exactly?

03:28:35.300 | - Highly blunted, I guess.

03:28:36.620 | - There's a lot, okay.

03:28:37.460 | - What does that mean?

03:28:39.380 | - I mean, what's deep in there?

03:28:42.260 | Is this just who you are genetically

03:28:43.660 | or are you running from something?

03:28:45.540 | - I think I have a pretty good understanding of myself.

03:28:46.940 | A lot of people make that accusation to me,

03:28:48.460 | but I don't think I am.

03:28:49.620 | - Okay, this is just who you are?

03:28:51.220 | - It's just who I am, yeah.

03:28:52.300 | - Okay, this is not childhood stuff like trauma?

03:28:55.260 | - It's all sort of done.

03:28:57.420 | - You figured it all out?

03:28:58.460 | - Yeah.

03:28:59.300 | - In your old age?

03:29:00.300 | - As I grow every year, I figure out more and more.

03:29:02.220 | - He did mention, I think I heard this somewhere,

03:29:04.180 | that this is a source of fights

03:29:05.820 | for the two of you, the age thing.

03:29:07.540 | I felt the ageism throughout this whole conversation.

03:29:10.180 | - He's basically, he's saying that he gambles with time.

03:29:14.260 | He's just like, "I think she will be good later."

03:29:16.500 | And then just like--

03:29:17.340 | - It's like an investment, yeah.

03:29:18.180 | - Yeah, it's like what he's doing.

03:29:20.380 | When this treasury bond matures,

03:29:22.020 | I'm gonna be able to cash out for a good--

03:29:22.860 | - What do you think so far?

03:29:23.700 | Is the stocks going up or?

03:29:25.980 | - It's tumultuous.

03:29:27.020 | - What's that mean?

03:29:27.860 | - It's like Bitcoin?

03:29:28.700 | - A lot of up and down.

03:29:29.540 | - Oh my God.

03:29:30.380 | - Yeah, like Bitcoin, crypto mill.

03:29:31.900 | - All right, if you guys don't mind,

03:29:34.140 | one interesting aspect of your relationship

03:29:36.100 | is you're in an open relationship.

03:29:38.420 | What's that like?

03:29:39.700 | From a game theoretic simulation perspective,

03:29:41.900 | what went into that calculation?

03:29:43.980 | And how does that--

03:29:45.140 | - Like how that started or?

03:29:46.300 | - Yeah, how did that start, sure.

03:29:47.820 | - The only relationships I've ever done

03:29:49.340 | has been open relationships since I was in high school.

03:29:52.260 | 'Cause I didn't really understand

03:29:53.940 | why wouldn't you be able to do other things

03:29:56.700 | with other people,

03:29:57.540 | but then just have your main partner basically.

03:29:59.580 | - So what is an open relationship, generally speaking?

03:30:02.460 | That means you have one main partner?

03:30:04.140 | - Not a monogamous relationship.

03:30:05.700 | You're somehow allowed in different ways.

03:30:09.100 | You can see other people sexually.

03:30:11.060 | - Sexually, but there's one main station.

03:30:14.580 | - It doesn't have to be there for some people,

03:30:16.140 | but I think it's probably easier

03:30:18.180 | when we probably don't really have time

03:30:19.620 | or the energy for more than one person

03:30:23.180 | to really focus on.

03:30:24.660 | - What about emotional?

03:30:26.820 | - It's really complicated.

03:30:27.660 | There's a lot of complicated stuff going on

03:30:29.260 | under the hood there.

03:30:30.300 | I think broadly speaking,

03:30:33.020 | you've got polyamorous relationships

03:30:35.100 | and you've got open relationships,

03:30:36.540 | where polyamorous is like,

03:30:38.060 | oh, I've got three different girlfriends

03:30:40.020 | and we all hang out or sometimes even live together

03:30:41.900 | or three boyfriends, whatever.

03:30:43.060 | And then you've got open relationships,

03:30:44.340 | which is like, oh, you can basically hook up

03:30:46.220 | with other people.

03:30:47.060 | And then you've got your main relationship and that's it.

03:30:49.340 | I think ours is probably somewhere in the middle of that,

03:30:52.140 | to where we've got long-term friends,

03:30:53.740 | some of them we hook up with,

03:30:54.860 | and that's kind of how we, yeah.

03:30:56.420 | It's a delicate dance that explodes

03:30:59.420 | every six months on itself.

03:31:00.260 | - So it does explode, you guys fight over it?

03:31:02.380 | - We fight over some things, yeah.

03:31:04.380 | It things happen, yeah.

03:31:05.220 | - I think it's mostly because a lot of people can't handle it

03:31:08.180 | and they agree to something

03:31:09.620 | and then they realize that we're way too cool.

03:31:11.420 | And then they get really obsessed

03:31:12.980 | and they think that they can get in there

03:31:14.900 | and then it gets really dramatic.

03:31:16.500 | - Have you figured it out?

03:31:17.860 | - I feel like we figure out things more and more

03:31:22.180 | when it comes to what's a good person for us to hang out

03:31:24.580 | and what's not a good person for us to hang out with.

03:31:27.980 | I probably have more opinions on who he hangs out with

03:31:30.540 | because he likes the fucking psychos.

03:31:32.340 | (laughs)

03:31:33.300 | - Yeah, so you like the surrounding?

03:31:35.060 | - He likes the crazy ones, the baby trap sort of women.

03:31:38.740 | That's the ones.

03:31:39.940 | And I don't like that 'cause that affects me.

03:31:42.140 | (laughs)

03:31:43.660 | - That affects your game theoretical relation.

03:31:45.380 | - Yeah, obviously, yeah.

03:31:46.220 | - Okay, you like to surround yourself,

03:31:48.460 | like in general, you've talked about with crazy people.

03:31:51.700 | - I say crazy and I really shouldn't.

03:31:53.180 | - It's a humorous way.

03:31:54.020 | - It's like, yeah.

03:31:54.860 | - They're very unstable.

03:31:55.780 | - Very, can be unstable, but people that are very unique.

03:31:58.820 | Like when I meet this person, that's like--

03:32:00.780 | - Not boring.

03:32:01.620 | - Yeah, not boring, yeah.

03:32:03.180 | - And you said that you're progressively becoming

03:32:05.940 | not boring yourself.

03:32:07.460 | - No, I think I'm pretty stable.

03:32:08.660 | I don't let them affect me much, but.

03:32:10.220 | - So you don't think they affect your--

03:32:11.780 | - No, if I've said that, I said it jokingly.

03:32:13.460 | I think I've got my stuff really well figured out.

03:32:15.780 | It's what allows me to engage with people like this

03:32:17.540 | so easily because I can engage,

03:32:19.180 | I can make them feel seen and heard.

03:32:20.380 | And then if it gets insane, I can cut off

03:32:22.060 | and I can be chill.

03:32:23.060 | Like very few things affect me in the longterm.

03:32:25.060 | - Do you guys experience jealousy?

03:32:27.540 | - Usually, like whenever I feel like he's not spending

03:32:30.180 | the like the amount of time that I'm asking for

03:32:32.140 | and he spends it on his video games or his stream

03:32:35.100 | or like he sees someone else like more than he sees me

03:32:38.220 | or something like that, that would like not be good.

03:32:40.300 | 'Cause then it affects like our relationship.

03:32:42.540 | - Do you have a good sense of like,

03:32:44.260 | is it literally time or is it the energy put into the--

03:32:49.180 | - It's probably like if he's with me,

03:32:52.340 | that like the attention in the time,

03:32:53.780 | like when he hangs out with me

03:32:54.780 | and then there's also probably the time.

03:32:56.180 | So if I feel like something else is distracting too much,

03:32:58.620 | like it could be work or it could be a friend

03:33:00.380 | or it could be anything.

03:33:01.660 | Like if I feel like it starts to take away from like me,

03:33:04.860 | then I'm having an issue with it.

03:33:06.500 | I don't think he really cares much.

03:33:08.140 | I guess the only jealousy you experience

03:33:09.580 | is probably when you feel like,

03:33:12.140 | like if I get upset about him seeing someone too much

03:33:15.780 | and then I go see someone more and then he's like,

03:33:17.980 | why can't I go see my friend more, like as much as you?

03:33:20.540 | So like, that's the sort of like thing

03:33:22.340 | that we're trying to navigate on, I guess.

03:33:24.440 | - I think we are like diametrically opposed sometimes

03:33:28.700 | in terms of how we view like engagement with people

03:33:30.620 | or engagement with the world sometimes.

03:33:32.300 | So like on her end of the spectrum,

03:33:34.060 | like a perfect week for her might be like being in a cabin,

03:33:39.820 | watching like fireflies at night,

03:33:41.620 | going hiking every morning, going swimming at the beach,

03:33:44.080 | because it's like, you're taking in like

03:33:45.520 | the grandeur of nature.

03:33:46.660 | You're like connected with yourself.

03:33:47.980 | You're like very at peace.

03:33:48.980 | Everything is like chill and cool.

03:33:50.220 | There's the wind, the feeling of nature, everything.

03:33:51.900 | That's like her peak living experience.

03:33:53.620 | - I like being present.

03:33:54.620 | - Yeah, and like my peak experiences are like

03:33:57.060 | people trying to destroy my life,

03:33:58.420 | like the challenge of like navigating

03:33:59.820 | really complicated discussion,

03:34:01.700 | like several different dramatic events unfolding

03:34:04.220 | that might end my career.

03:34:05.060 | Like these things are like very,

03:34:05.940 | I like the stress and the action and the entertainment

03:34:08.260 | and everything's like very cool for me.

03:34:09.900 | So when we're together,

03:34:11.020 | she generally wants me to be like more chill.

03:34:12.980 | But if I don't feel like I'm being like stimulated a lot,

03:34:15.300 | then it's easy for like my mind to wander.

03:34:16.780 | - To wander somewhere else.

03:34:18.420 | - That's kind of the issue.

03:34:19.260 | We have a very different way of like engaging with the world.

03:34:20.740 | - So how can you find happiness in the stillness?

03:34:24.100 | - I feel like if we're just like aware of it

03:34:26.300 | and we're trying our best,

03:34:27.460 | like whenever we like we're supposed to do this one thing.

03:34:29.380 | So let's say that we wanna go to New York

03:34:31.020 | and I'm like, we should just like go out

03:34:32.500 | and do this one specific thing.

03:34:33.780 | We try to find something that he enjoys doing.

03:34:35.860 | Like now that we're in Texas,

03:34:37.700 | we can go shooting or do something fun that he enjoys

03:34:40.260 | then we can do it.

03:34:41.180 | And then I think like,

03:34:44.100 | just like for me also to be aware

03:34:46.540 | that like when he spends a lot of time on crazy people,

03:34:48.620 | it's not because he like loves them or wants to be with them.

03:34:50.820 | It's just because he likes being like,

03:34:52.380 | having his life destroyed.

03:34:54.500 | Like you said, which I don't really do.

03:34:56.380 | It's just a completely different thing.

03:34:57.580 | So like for me to like understand more like how he's thinking

03:35:00.700 | because it's so different from mine

03:35:02.300 | and for him to understand how I'm thinking about things

03:35:04.500 | and like what I prioritize in my life.

03:35:06.700 | I think that's like how we navigate.

03:35:08.300 | But I think it's good.

03:35:09.140 | I think the differences can be good.

03:35:10.660 | Like when we're finding a way, yeah.

03:35:12.420 | - Well, I think you're relatable.

03:35:15.700 | (laughing)

03:35:17.220 | - More of a human, you're an AI.

03:35:18.060 | - No, I'm definitely very difficult to get along with.

03:35:19.740 | Like I always tell people that,

03:35:20.580 | that like if you're dating me for like more than a few years,

03:35:22.580 | like you get like an award for that.

03:35:23.420 | - It's like a war zone that you've survived.

03:35:25.580 | - Did you say that? - Absolutely.

03:35:26.420 | - That you're like a veteran, you get medals and stuff.

03:35:29.300 | - And it's always like,

03:35:30.140 | I think there's probably been like six different,

03:35:31.540 | I don't think she says it anymore,

03:35:32.740 | but there were like six different times in our relationship

03:35:34.180 | where she's like, is it always like this?

03:35:35.700 | Is this actually right?

03:35:36.660 | - Yeah. - And like every next year--

03:35:37.500 | - You lied in the beginning of it.

03:35:39.380 | Like you were lying about that.

03:35:40.700 | - Well, it got worse.

03:35:42.300 | - You were like, no, it's just like right now,

03:35:43.940 | I'm having a huge argument online

03:35:46.140 | about saying the N-word in private.

03:35:47.580 | It's just gonna be like this

03:35:48.540 | and I'm gonna be streaming 24 hours a day.

03:35:51.140 | And I'm like, when are you gonna go to bed?

03:35:52.940 | It's been a week.

03:35:53.780 | - Did playing league come into this?

03:35:58.380 | - A little bit, but I'm clean.

03:35:59.580 | I'm clean of league like six months right now.

03:36:01.140 | - Yeah, what do you hate about legally?

03:36:03.380 | - I never got-- - The humans.

03:36:04.980 | (laughing)

03:36:06.300 | - Well, speaking of which,

03:36:08.180 | my participation in league involved on the robot side.

03:36:10.820 | - Good.

03:36:11.660 | - 'Cause there's--

03:36:12.540 | - That's an improvement.

03:36:13.940 | - 'Cause both with Starcraft II and League of Legends,

03:36:18.180 | 'cause OpenAI and DeepMind both participate

03:36:21.220 | in creating bots in those.

03:36:22.380 | - I was a professional Starcraft II player,

03:36:23.780 | so I remember when the AI started to play.

03:36:25.940 | It's interesting the types of restrictions

03:36:27.740 | that you would have to put on like a gaming robot

03:36:29.580 | to make it like functional

03:36:30.740 | and not totally unfair to the other side.

03:36:33.340 | - Yeah, to make it human-like.

03:36:34.660 | Yeah, was that interesting to you,

03:36:35.940 | to see AI be able to play those video games?

03:36:38.740 | - I think in some ways,

03:36:39.580 | people think things are more complicated

03:36:40.700 | than they actually are.

03:36:41.860 | And I think video games is one of those things

03:36:43.380 | where we're like, oh my God,

03:36:44.220 | there's like a million possibilities at every second

03:36:46.660 | and who knows?

03:36:47.500 | And it's like, no, there's like three or four things

03:36:48.620 | going on at any point in time.

03:36:49.580 | And I'm willing to bet that like an AI

03:36:50.860 | could probably solve some of these games like pretty easily,

03:36:53.740 | especially if there are no constraints

03:36:55.100 | on how they can learn, yeah.

03:36:56.820 | - Can I talk to you about relationships?

03:36:59.060 | - Yeah. - Yeah, we already have.

03:37:00.300 | - Yeah, I know, but more generally speaking,

03:37:02.180 | we didn't get a chance to talk

03:37:03.860 | about the Red Pill community.

03:37:05.820 | - Oh, sure.

03:37:06.660 | - Well, first of all, what is the Red Pill community,

03:37:08.380 | the metasphere in general?

03:37:09.780 | I'd love to get both of your opinions on this.

03:37:11.700 | - Sure.

03:37:12.980 | - I know you're probably not as opinionated on that whole--

03:37:17.380 | - I'd say, do you think I am then?

03:37:19.060 | Like probably not as much as you,

03:37:21.060 | but I do have opinions.

03:37:22.500 | - You do, okay.

03:37:23.340 | - I usually don't like speak out too much on it

03:37:25.420 | because I feel like there's like a language barrier.

03:37:28.020 | That's why I don't really do politics

03:37:29.380 | because this is my second language, yeah.

03:37:31.220 | - That's right, you have to know the--

03:37:33.300 | - A little bit like that, yeah.

03:37:34.140 | - You know how to use derogatory terms every other sentence

03:37:38.700 | so they understand you, right?

03:37:40.020 | - Exactly.

03:37:40.860 | - I don't know anything about that.

03:37:41.700 | - It's the only thing I've talked about.

03:37:42.540 | - You need to be able to speak really well

03:37:45.780 | for people to take you seriously, I think.

03:37:48.300 | And that's the thing, if I don't have the words

03:37:51.260 | and I can't pronounce things correctly,

03:37:54.060 | then people are not gonna say--

03:37:54.900 | - The ESL person searching for words looks stupid,

03:37:56.740 | essentially, that's how people view it, yeah.

03:37:58.300 | - Tell me about it, I have a podcast

03:38:00.260 | that a bunch of people listen to and I mumble and they,

03:38:03.500 | yeah.

03:38:04.340 | - Wait, what's your first language?

03:38:06.220 | - Russian.

03:38:07.060 | - Oh, okay.

03:38:07.880 | - But I speak both languages horribly.

03:38:09.540 | I'm just not, I'm not like,

03:38:12.300 | there is definitely a big disconnect

03:38:14.380 | between my brain and my mouth module.

03:38:17.220 | Like, I'm not able to generate the thoughts efficiently.

03:38:20.740 | Like the things you're able to do,

03:38:21.940 | like the da-da-da-da-da, like speak like that, I'm not.

03:38:25.180 | It's very, very tough.

03:38:26.140 | Plus there's a huge amount of anxiety

03:38:27.900 | and social interaction that I have,

03:38:29.480 | which makes speaking even harder.

03:38:31.340 | - Gotcha.

03:38:32.180 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's tough.

03:38:34.140 | - I understand.

03:38:34.980 | - Gotcha.

03:38:35.800 | - Makes sense.

03:38:37.340 | - Yeah, the gotcha is both a symbol of compassion

03:38:42.340 | and derision at once.

03:38:44.100 | - I'm just letting you know, I understand what you're saying.

03:38:45.540 | I'm just gonna sit there and stare at you in silence.

03:38:46.820 | - No, you can just say like, yeah, I get it.

03:38:48.780 | Like, yeah.

03:38:49.620 | - I get it, gotcha.

03:38:50.820 | - No, no, gotcha sounds, no, it's so short.

03:38:55.060 | It's like, say a longer sentence,

03:38:57.900 | but that means the same thing.

03:38:59.260 | - I understand you.

03:39:00.600 | - Yeah, good, that's good.

03:39:01.600 | That's like, not chills, you know?

03:39:04.200 | You get chills, so you understand me.

03:39:06.360 | - Yeah, it feels good.

03:39:07.240 | - Yeah.

03:39:08.080 | - I hear you.

03:39:08.900 | - I hear you.

03:39:09.740 | - And like, if you just like hold the other person's hand,

03:39:11.320 | that's even better.

03:39:12.160 | - You gotta put in some emotion there, okay?

03:39:13.520 | Show that you have some.

03:39:14.720 | - I understand.

03:39:15.560 | What do you think about, gotcha.

03:39:18.360 | What do you think about Red Pill?

03:39:20.320 | What, sorry, what is it, first of all,

03:39:22.360 | for people who don't know?

03:39:23.440 | - Yeah, the Red Pill community,

03:39:25.000 | obviously it's the Matrix reference.

03:39:26.480 | The Red Pill that you take is when you realize

03:39:28.640 | what dating standards and norms really are in the world.

03:39:31.440 | That men are providers and have to become some great thing

03:39:34.620 | to hunt and attract the woman who are just kind of there

03:39:37.640 | floating around looking for people

03:39:38.860 | to give them the most resources.

03:39:40.160 | And it's like coming to a realization

03:39:42.260 | of what the world of dating really is,

03:39:43.760 | broken away from the Hollywood standards

03:39:45.560 | and the romantic stuff that they try to sell you

03:39:47.160 | in the stores.

03:39:48.220 | - So there was kind of,

03:39:49.800 | maybe you can kind of educate me on this,

03:39:51.880 | but Red Pill used to be associated with just

03:39:57.240 | maybe anti-establishment views, I don't know.

03:39:59.320 | Maybe Republican conservative viewpoints,

03:40:01.400 | maybe alt-right. - People use,

03:40:02.340 | yeah, they use Red Pill a lot in different communities.

03:40:04.800 | When you say the Red Pill community--

03:40:06.480 | - Yeah, that usually means dating.

03:40:07.960 | - The dating thing.

03:40:08.800 | But a lot of people say, "Oh, Trump voters,

03:40:09.640 | "they're Red Pilled."

03:40:10.460 | Are you Red Pilled on politics or whatever?

03:40:11.800 | People will say stuff like that, yeah.

03:40:13.120 | - Okay. - Cool.

03:40:13.960 | - And then there's the Manosphere,

03:40:15.760 | all the similar type of stuff.

03:40:17.160 | And Andrew Tate is somebody that represents

03:40:19.440 | kind of the figurehead.

03:40:21.560 | - Of the Manosphere, of the Red Pill stuff,

03:40:23.320 | yeah, I would say so.

03:40:24.160 | I'm pretty sure, yeah.

03:40:25.000 | - Okay.

03:40:25.820 | All right, cool.

03:40:26.660 | Well, what are some ideas that they represent

03:40:29.560 | and what do you think about them?

03:40:30.680 | - I think they do a good job at speaking

03:40:32.720 | to disaffected young men who feel like

03:40:34.880 | the rest of the world has kind of left them behind

03:40:36.600 | or isn't willing to speak to them.

03:40:38.360 | And they do identify some true and real problems.

03:40:41.520 | Feels like on the left, we have a really hard time

03:40:43.420 | doing self-improvement or telling people

03:40:45.560 | how to better themselves.

03:40:46.460 | We focus too much on structural or systemic issues

03:40:48.880 | rather than what can an individual do

03:40:50.400 | to uplift or empower themselves.

03:40:52.240 | And it also feels like they do a good job

03:40:54.000 | at speaking to some of the positive aspects

03:40:56.220 | of masculinity, that it's okay to be strong

03:40:58.920 | and brave and a soldier and a warrior

03:41:01.440 | and provide for your family and blah, blah, blah.

03:41:03.840 | So I would say those are positive messages,

03:41:05.480 | like self-improvement and everything

03:41:06.760 | that come from the Red Pill community.

03:41:08.640 | - What's the negative?

03:41:09.800 | - I think the analysis on how men and women interact

03:41:13.960 | is way too transactional.

03:41:16.040 | All of the romanticism and love and chemistry

03:41:18.300 | is totally sucked out of it.

03:41:19.740 | Everything is very sex-based,

03:41:22.040 | like how do you basically have sex

03:41:23.440 | with the most amount of women possible

03:41:24.840 | and that's gonna make you happy?

03:41:26.340 | And then I think people's motivations sometimes

03:41:28.660 | are just spoken about in such a shallow derogatory way

03:41:31.620 | that I don't think is always reflective of reality.

03:41:33.620 | Like a woman only wants you

03:41:34.820 | because you make six figures and you're tall

03:41:36.620 | and a guy only wants you

03:41:37.460 | 'cause he wants to have sex with you and blah, blah.

03:41:38.860 | Like it feels like there's a lot of that going on a lot.

03:41:41.420 | - Yeah, and that misses some fundamental aspects

03:41:43.980 | about relationships, about meaningful relationships

03:41:46.420 | and so on.

03:41:47.260 | - I don't think I've never heard Red Pill people

03:41:48.660 | ever, ever talk about meaningful relationships.

03:41:50.980 | It's always just how to get in one

03:41:52.060 | or how to have sex, really.

03:41:53.880 | - Mel, what bothers you about some of that philosophy?

03:41:57.260 | - I feel like the people that are like the Red Pill people,

03:41:59.620 | I feel like their solution is something

03:42:01.580 | that doesn't actually work out.

03:42:03.520 | Or it works out for some people,

03:42:06.700 | people that makes a lot of money

03:42:07.780 | and is really successful in that sort of way,

03:42:10.100 | but it's not gonna help most men out there.

03:42:12.980 | So I feel like it's just a pointless speech

03:42:15.700 | to give to these really lost guys.

03:42:18.060 | And they really do believe that they can become successful,

03:42:21.060 | they can get money and when they get all these things,

03:42:24.680 | they can get girls,

03:42:25.600 | but most of them is not gonna achieve that ever.

03:42:28.440 | - To get the money part or become successful.

03:42:30.440 | - Just become a billionaire, you know?

03:42:31.840 | And you will get all the girls, which is true,

03:42:33.640 | but not everyone can do that.

03:42:34.680 | So I feel like when these guys are speaking to these men

03:42:38.000 | and they're just like,

03:42:38.820 | "We just care about these men out there.

03:42:40.520 | They need to hear this."

03:42:41.720 | It doesn't really help a lot of them.

03:42:43.520 | - And it doesn't inspire them to develop compassion

03:42:48.520 | towards the opposite sex,

03:42:49.920 | which is probably something required

03:42:51.460 | to have a meaningful relationship.

03:42:52.920 | - And also they seem to complain a lot about women,

03:42:56.640 | like only wanting men that have money and that's tall

03:42:59.380 | and that's muscular or whatever, all those things.

03:43:01.880 | But they complain about that,

03:43:04.660 | but that's also kind of what they're trying to make the men

03:43:08.740 | try to do for themselves.

03:43:10.260 | So they kind of fall into the same sort of behavior.

03:43:12.900 | And it seems like they're kind of unaware of that as well.

03:43:16.060 | They're just playing a part of the game

03:43:17.380 | instead of trying to find a woman

03:43:19.280 | that doesn't look for those things

03:43:20.940 | and that are looking for not those things.

03:43:24.260 | - I actually would love to have straight up data

03:43:27.700 | on people in that world versus not in that world,

03:43:31.900 | how often they get laid.

03:43:33.220 | Like literally, so I think for sure people in that world

03:43:39.420 | have fewer meaningful long-term relationships

03:43:44.460 | that are fulfilling,

03:43:45.460 | that actually helped them succeed in life,

03:43:47.540 | that helped them be happy and content

03:43:49.020 | and all that kind of stuff.

03:43:50.300 | But just even the straight up,

03:43:51.620 | the shallow goal of getting laid, I wonder.

03:43:56.540 | Because it's very possible that like just the roughness

03:43:59.460 | with which they treat intellectually women,

03:44:03.420 | that might lead to lower success, not higher success.

03:44:06.660 | - It's very adversarial,

03:44:08.100 | which I think is always disappointing.

03:44:09.220 | Anything that talks about men and women,

03:44:10.500 | I think it's good to acknowledge differences,

03:44:12.340 | but when it becomes like adversarial,

03:44:13.980 | especially when you talk about sex,

03:44:15.340 | sex is something that men are getting

03:44:16.820 | and it's something that women are giving

03:44:18.180 | and that type of like trade off

03:44:19.340 | and the way they talk about it is like,

03:44:20.620 | yeah, it sets people against each other

03:44:22.260 | in a really toxic way, I think.

03:44:23.820 | - How do you talk to people from that world,

03:44:27.180 | from the red pill world?

03:44:28.500 | Like would you ever talk to like somebody like Andrew Tate?

03:44:31.020 | - Oh yeah, if I had the chance to.

03:44:32.220 | I've been on the Fresh and Fit podcast a few times

03:44:34.260 | and then I've got a friend, Sneeko,

03:44:35.580 | who's like very red pill, that stuff.

03:44:37.700 | If I'm trying to talk to them,

03:44:40.460 | usually it's kind of like approaching it like a scared cat.

03:44:44.060 | The first thing you have to do is like be very gentle

03:44:45.820 | and say like, I understand your issues,

03:44:47.180 | I understand your complaints,

03:44:48.060 | I know that I'm scary because you think I'm gonna say

03:44:49.980 | like toxic masculinity and feminism

03:44:51.820 | and all these scary words at you.

03:44:54.020 | So the first thing is always to recognize it.

03:44:55.580 | Like a lot of what they talk about,

03:44:56.980 | there are like true aspects to what they're talking about

03:44:59.340 | that people on the left won't recognize.

03:45:01.140 | So I think it's good to acknowledge those things

03:45:03.900 | that like men and women are kind of different.

03:45:05.820 | We do look for different things in general

03:45:07.220 | when it comes to relationships.

03:45:08.060 | It's okay to say that, there's nothing bad there.

03:45:10.500 | And then it'll usually be like,

03:45:11.500 | once I've got your trust and I'm in your bubble,

03:45:13.700 | like let's talk about the things that you want

03:45:15.780 | and maybe some of the strategies that you're employing

03:45:17.980 | aren't necessarily gonna get you

03:45:19.140 | some of the things that you want.

03:45:20.340 | So for instance, if you're really worried

03:45:21.580 | about like shallow girls ruining your life,

03:45:23.820 | like Melina said, it's probably not best

03:45:26.100 | to build your entire worldview

03:45:27.140 | around trying to get shallow girls

03:45:28.340 | that are gonna ruin your life.

03:45:29.540 | Like if your way of attracting a girl

03:45:30.820 | is to go to the gym, get a whole bunch of money

03:45:32.500 | and try to like flaunt your wealth as much as possible,

03:45:34.740 | you're gonna be attracting the very same type of women

03:45:36.380 | that you're here like decrying on your stream.

03:45:38.660 | - Yeah, I think we talked about that on the podcast.

03:45:40.100 | Like you probably wanna have a woman

03:45:41.660 | that's gonna be there if you lose your job,

03:45:43.420 | it's still there.

03:45:44.260 | Like that cares about the things that's not just your job.

03:45:47.020 | - Yeah.

03:45:47.980 | - It's more stable.

03:45:48.940 | - And also I don't help you become a great man

03:45:52.020 | or a great like grow.

03:45:54.260 | Like I feel like a great friendship and a partnership,

03:45:57.100 | like it helps you make you a better person.

03:45:58.900 | Some of the most successful people I know,

03:46:00.420 | I mean, they have families

03:46:01.500 | and there's clearly a dynamic there

03:46:03.140 | that's like that makes them,

03:46:05.020 | they wouldn't be that without.

03:46:06.460 | - They're not an island, yeah.

03:46:07.500 | - Yeah, and the kids actually a big part of that too.

03:46:10.180 | Like for most people, if you're like a good parent,

03:46:12.860 | they make you step up somehow in life.

03:46:15.260 | You have to take responsibility

03:46:16.500 | for getting your shit together

03:46:18.580 | and excelling in ways that I guess the philosophy

03:46:23.580 | of the Red Bull does not quite get to.

03:46:25.140 | - That's always an interesting,

03:46:26.100 | I think I've asked that a couple of times

03:46:27.220 | where it's like, would you let your daughter

03:46:30.460 | date Andrew Tate?

03:46:31.820 | And it's always funny to watch them

03:46:32.860 | kind of like squirm around those answers sometimes.

03:46:35.260 | - But see if they don't have a daughter,

03:46:37.260 | like I don't have a daughter.

03:46:39.340 | I think your whole philosophy changes

03:46:41.340 | once you have a daughter.

03:46:42.380 | - Sure.

03:46:43.220 | - Like you can feel a solid--

03:46:44.060 | - Well, but even at that,

03:46:44.880 | like they know that what they're answering,

03:46:45.720 | they feel a little bit weird about it.

03:46:46.820 | It's funny to watch them.

03:46:47.660 | Like even they know, it's like, ah, fuck, you know.

03:46:49.900 | - Well, they might say like,

03:46:51.140 | I want my daughter to date like a high value male

03:46:54.540 | to the degree that he's a high value male, yes.

03:46:57.260 | But like, I don't think you'll feel that way.

03:46:59.120 | The definition of high value changes completely.

03:47:01.500 | - For sure.

03:47:02.340 | - Certainly the stereotypical measures of value

03:47:05.220 | contribute to the calculation,

03:47:06.560 | but it's so much more than that.

03:47:07.860 | I think the chemistry of the whole thing is bigger.

03:47:11.140 | You've also mentioned about body count.

03:47:13.780 | You guys both have a high body count.

03:47:16.700 | Does body count matter?

03:47:18.060 | Or it depends, like you said,

03:47:19.780 | it's low in some people's eyes,

03:47:21.620 | it's high in other people's eyes.

03:47:23.160 | Does body count matter in relationships?

03:47:24.900 | Does the past matter?

03:47:26.660 | - Well, the past matters.

03:47:27.900 | I don't think body count, not to me, I don't really care.

03:47:29.900 | - Not just as it is, no.

03:47:31.220 | - I mean, it could be.

03:47:33.220 | - What the past does.

03:47:34.040 | - Yeah.

03:47:34.880 | - Well, the past is who you are, right?

03:47:36.100 | But if somebody tells me they have a 200 body count

03:47:38.220 | and they're 16,

03:47:39.300 | something's probably going on there that's not good.

03:47:41.260 | - I was thinking about that too.

03:47:42.100 | 'Cause it could be really young people

03:47:43.900 | that are having some sort of mental problems going on.

03:47:47.460 | - Or somebody's 45 and they've never had sex before.

03:47:50.340 | There's probably something going on, right?

03:47:51.620 | So it could be indicative.

03:47:52.460 | But if somebody's in their 20s and they've had sex

03:47:54.260 | with 100 people or 50 people, whatever, it's whatever.

03:47:57.140 | - It's more experience, which can be good.

03:47:59.420 | - Sure.

03:48:00.260 | - Okay, so that just represents you're sexually open

03:48:03.420 | and so it doesn't really necessarily mean any kind of,

03:48:06.460 | not necessarily, it could though.

03:48:07.940 | The number alone doesn't mean anything.

03:48:09.940 | - Yeah.

03:48:10.780 | - Okay.

03:48:11.600 | - Well, you could meet a guy that's like,

03:48:12.860 | I just really, really want to fuck a lot of people

03:48:14.900 | because it makes me so cool.

03:48:16.820 | You can meet someone like that, which is like, maybe.

03:48:18.940 | - So the body count doesn't matter,

03:48:19.860 | but where it comes from.

03:48:21.140 | - Yeah, like why have you slept with the people

03:48:23.500 | you slept with?

03:48:24.580 | - Does it hurt the romantic aspect of the relationship,

03:48:26.900 | knowing that there's a lot of people in the past?

03:48:29.380 | - I don't know.

03:48:30.220 | - Not for us, no.

03:48:31.180 | - Is the part of the relationship fundamentally romantic?

03:48:34.060 | - For us, yeah, I'd say so, yeah.

03:48:34.900 | - For us, yeah, pretty soon.

03:48:36.180 | - Okay.

03:48:37.020 | (laughing)

03:48:37.860 | - What?

03:48:39.260 | - You come off as such a cold person.

03:48:40.900 | - No, I was just in my head thinking,

03:48:42.140 | I wanted to just say gotcha right there.

03:48:44.260 | - Oh, nice.

03:48:45.100 | (laughing)

03:48:45.940 | - It's so judgmental.

03:48:47.100 | - I think when it comes to the sex thing,

03:48:48.440 | there's always like, the way that I explain it is,

03:48:50.040 | and I understand, like, I have to say this

03:48:52.460 | 'cause I don't advocate for what I do for everybody

03:48:54.760 | or what she does for everybody,

03:48:55.840 | 'cause obviously there's a whole bunch of natural feelings

03:48:58.160 | of jealousy that pop up for a lot of people.

03:49:00.340 | But when people ask me, it's always like,

03:49:01.880 | oh, isn't this horrible that you guys are doing this

03:49:04.240 | and you don't love each other?

03:49:05.520 | From my perspective, I can have sex with any person

03:49:08.600 | and it can be sex.

03:49:09.480 | That's not a special thing between two people, in my eyes.

03:49:12.040 | It's like anybody can have sex.

03:49:13.440 | But there are certain activities and ways

03:49:15.960 | you can spend time with each other

03:49:17.440 | where you're carving out these precious little moments

03:49:19.440 | in time with a certain person that can do things

03:49:21.280 | that are special to that person.

03:49:22.760 | And those are the kind of events

03:49:24.320 | that I remember more than anything else.

03:49:26.480 | So the idea of like, oh, wow, I had sex with a person

03:49:29.680 | that was so special doesn't mean as much as like,

03:49:31.940 | you know, us traveling to like New Zealand

03:49:34.300 | or sharing some special moment,

03:49:35.500 | doing like some really fun activity or event or whatever.

03:49:37.820 | That's usually how I like it, yeah.

03:49:39.540 | - So a shared intimate moment.

03:49:41.300 | - Yeah.

03:49:42.140 | - I kind of agree,

03:49:42.960 | but I can definitely connect the romance with sex.

03:49:44.900 | - Boring.

03:49:45.740 | (laughing)

03:49:46.580 | - I'm curious why you can't do that.

03:49:47.400 | - That's 'cause she's a woman.

03:49:48.240 | See, that's where the red pill's right.

03:49:49.060 | That's exactly what you can't.

03:49:49.900 | - We also talked about misogyny,

03:49:51.900 | which is clearly the embodiment of that.

03:49:54.380 | What were you saying?

03:49:55.580 | So there's a connection between romance and sex?

03:49:58.020 | - Yeah, I think it is.

03:49:59.380 | Because I think sex could be a lot of things, right?

03:50:02.740 | It's some sort of bonding, I'd say, in some way.

03:50:06.740 | Let's say that you really like BDSM.

03:50:08.900 | You kind of like, you become submissive to someone

03:50:11.360 | or you take control over someone.

03:50:12.620 | It's like a very bonding, like intimate moment, I'd say.

03:50:16.340 | - And that's romantic.

03:50:17.180 | The intimacy is romantic.

03:50:18.020 | - I think it is.

03:50:19.060 | If you can show yourself as really submissive or like weak,

03:50:21.820 | or you have like absolutely no control over yourself

03:50:23.920 | and you let someone else do it,

03:50:25.380 | or you are the one being that,

03:50:27.000 | like you are the dominant force of someone.

03:50:28.620 | I think that's a really like intimate thing.

03:50:30.420 | 'Cause you show like the weakest part of yourself, kind of.

03:50:34.060 | - I just feel like I personally,

03:50:35.740 | to me, some component of romantic,

03:50:39.340 | but to me, this is not judging to others.

03:50:40.960 | To me, maybe it's how I was brought up,

03:50:43.060 | the romance increases if the number of intimate interactions

03:50:49.460 | are limited to one person.

03:50:51.580 | For me, for some reason, spreading it out

03:50:57.700 | decreases exponentially the feeling of romance you feel.

03:51:02.700 | That could be just like sort of having grown up

03:51:07.860 | in the Soviet Union, there's the fairy tale stories

03:51:11.620 | and you're kind of maybe living through them.

03:51:14.660 | - Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying

03:51:15.500 | is like really normal.

03:51:16.460 | Like most people probably feel that way, yeah.

03:51:18.700 | - But because you guys are able to successfully not do that,

03:51:21.220 | I just wanna question my own understanding of it.

03:51:24.320 | - Like why is that?

03:51:26.420 | - Why is that?

03:51:27.260 | - Like am I being very jealous for no reason?

03:51:30.820 | Maybe you can maximize the number of intimate experiences

03:51:33.820 | if you just open up and let go of the jealousy, essentially.

03:51:37.100 | - I feel like in Sweden, like in Scandinavia,

03:51:39.100 | we're extremely just sexually open, in general.

03:51:42.060 | We're not super religious either.

03:51:44.180 | We're very relaxed.

03:51:45.780 | We don't feel bad about ourselves.

03:51:48.740 | It's just like a different sort of thing.

03:51:49.940 | And I would say we're more progressive

03:51:51.980 | when it comes to feminism and stuff.

03:51:53.700 | So it's more common that you will meet women

03:51:55.980 | with a higher body count than like,

03:51:57.660 | when I meet like American girls,

03:51:59.020 | all of them have like vaginismus,

03:52:00.540 | like super suppressed sexually.

03:52:02.220 | And they have like-

03:52:03.060 | - What did you just use?

03:52:04.340 | - They have like issues to like,

03:52:06.360 | they can't relax during sex, which just hurts for them.

03:52:08.700 | - Vaginismus. - So they get really nervous.

03:52:09.860 | Vaginismus, is that what it's called?

03:52:10.940 | Yeah.

03:52:12.380 | So like I meet so many girls

03:52:13.820 | that are having like a lot of issues with sex

03:52:16.660 | and they have like a very low body count

03:52:18.220 | because they just can't relax.

03:52:19.980 | Yeah, and usually they come

03:52:22.620 | from like a very religious background.

03:52:24.720 | So they have just been told like, you cannot wear that.

03:52:26.820 | You cannot be like that.

03:52:27.900 | You can't like, you know.

03:52:29.340 | And like where I grew up, it wasn't like that at all.

03:52:32.540 | We just see it as more like a casual thing.

03:52:35.100 | - So then you can just maximize

03:52:36.980 | the awesomeness of the experience.

03:52:39.900 | - Yeah, I guess.

03:52:40.740 | I don't like how I go. - You don't have to

03:52:41.560 | trauma over it. - Exactly, yeah.

03:52:42.380 | - I think the important thing I think

03:52:43.740 | for everybody to realize

03:52:44.700 | is there's always pros and cons to everything.

03:52:46.740 | Like my lifestyle,

03:52:48.380 | like obviously I get to have a lot of fun experiences.

03:52:50.180 | That's like a huge pro and that's super cool.

03:52:52.180 | And if you're like a more monogamy brain person,

03:52:54.300 | you're not gonna get those experiences.

03:52:55.680 | But if you're a monogamy brain person,

03:52:57.280 | like when you're sharing that special moment

03:52:58.760 | in time with somebody else,

03:52:59.760 | like that moment can be really, really, really special

03:53:01.960 | because now it's the thing that you're showing yourself

03:53:03.920 | and open yourself up to another person

03:53:05.220 | and they're only trusting you to do that.

03:53:06.760 | And that's like a really special thing

03:53:08.000 | that only the two of you are sharing with each other.

03:53:09.980 | So, I mean like there's always like pros and cons

03:53:11.400 | to everything.

03:53:12.240 | - Like I think we both would say like,

03:53:13.600 | like doing an open relationship is probably not,

03:53:15.600 | like we would not recommend it.

03:53:17.600 | - Yeah, no, of course not. - I don't think we would, no.

03:53:20.080 | - Yeah, I recently fasted for three days

03:53:22.240 | and I ate a chicken breast at the end of that.

03:53:24.420 | And it was like the most delicious food I've ever eaten.

03:53:27.180 | - True.

03:53:28.020 | - So like there's some aspect of fasting and scarcity

03:53:30.340 | and so on that like,

03:53:31.180 | and you have to figure out what for your own psyche,

03:53:33.620 | what works the best.

03:53:34.460 | - It's good to be a little bored or like not do something

03:53:36.780 | or like work because you can just enjoy the time

03:53:39.500 | when you're doing something really fun.

03:53:41.020 | It's more fun, otherwise you're just gonna get numb

03:53:42.980 | in general with everything, yeah.

03:53:44.820 | - Yeah, I personally just never get bored.

03:53:46.720 | Like I guess the boring thing is exciting to me.

03:53:49.820 | Though it's just like--

03:53:50.660 | - Are you like me?

03:53:51.700 | 'Cause everything I like is boring.

03:53:54.940 | - I gotta ask you, we talked about massaging

03:53:56.980 | and he's trying to battle it out on the internet.

03:53:59.740 | What's your sense as a woman about the level of massaging

03:54:04.740 | and the internet and the streaming community

03:54:07.180 | and how to fight it?

03:54:08.820 | - For me, 'cause I guess I get it every single day somehow.

03:54:12.860 | Like, because I have an online,

03:54:14.260 | like I have a chat that's live, right?

03:54:16.380 | But I have like mods moderating that all the time

03:54:19.100 | so I don't really need to see much of it.

03:54:20.540 | I think it's just pretty annoying

03:54:22.100 | because you get to like see it all the time.

03:54:25.080 | - So it's become like background noise?

03:54:28.380 | - Yeah, a little bit and it's like the same comms

03:54:30.700 | over and over again.

03:54:31.900 | But it's usually for me, I don't personally care that much.

03:54:34.980 | I understand that other people do,

03:54:36.180 | especially when it comes into like,

03:54:37.900 | when there's like a lot of sexism and stuff

03:54:40.100 | and when there's a lot of like men

03:54:42.340 | not taking women seriously.

03:54:43.420 | Like I definitely get that and I used to get that even more

03:54:45.700 | like a few years ago with my accent and everything

03:54:48.340 | and like I used to be blonde as well like a few months ago.

03:54:50.500 | So I feel like people wouldn't take me seriously

03:54:52.220 | because of that.

03:54:53.460 | That's a bit annoying, but I feel like it's pretty easy

03:54:57.180 | to like see through when someone acts that way.

03:54:59.020 | And for me personally, I don't really care.

03:55:00.620 | But it's a bit annoying, like being online

03:55:03.700 | and like getting stuff every single day.

03:55:05.700 | I would say like probably the worst thing is

03:55:08.560 | when you feel like you put in a lot of effort

03:55:10.500 | into some sort of work, everyone is just gonna say,

03:55:13.500 | you just got that because you're a woman

03:55:15.460 | and you're attractive.

03:55:16.380 | And that's probably like the worst thing.

03:55:18.740 | - Is there a way to fight that you think?

03:55:20.500 | - Yeah, I don't think you can.

03:55:21.460 | I think it just comes up all the time.

03:55:22.820 | It's just like, it is what it is, I guess.

03:55:24.900 | You just gotta keep doing whatever you do

03:55:26.300 | and like not let it like emotionally control you somehow.

03:55:28.980 | - I think having more women in those spaces is always good.

03:55:31.060 | - It's probably good, yeah.

03:55:31.900 | - Like a lot of the guys you can tell online

03:55:33.220 | that they don't ever--

03:55:34.060 | - Don't bring on the worst ones then, Stephen.

03:55:35.860 | - See, she just did it.

03:55:37.740 | She did the misogyny thing.

03:55:39.700 | By having some bad women on, she's saying all women, see?

03:55:42.380 | - Well, you know it's true, right?

03:55:46.060 | - See, I disagree with you and I'm older than both of you.

03:55:48.700 | And therefore wiser, right?

03:55:50.340 | So--

03:55:51.180 | - Well, combined, we're older than you.

03:55:52.020 | - I think we're--

03:55:52.860 | - So, careful.

03:55:53.700 | - We're one only metronomy.

03:55:55.020 | Yeah, we've got combined age.

03:55:56.460 | - Or it could be the same thing as like,

03:55:59.420 | also the age thing and like the woman thing.

03:56:01.300 | A lot of people think that I'm just copying

03:56:02.700 | every single thing that he says,

03:56:04.180 | which I think is a bit annoying as well.

03:56:05.420 | So I can never really like--

03:56:06.580 | - Hassan accused her of that one time.

03:56:07.660 | - Yeah, which is a bit annoying.

03:56:08.980 | - I don't really like so much, you know?

03:56:10.580 | - It was about the defunding police.

03:56:11.980 | Like my dad is a cop.

03:56:12.820 | - I like friendship, camaraderie, and love and respect,

03:56:16.260 | which you both have had for a time and have lost.

03:56:20.100 | And I would like you to regain it.

03:56:22.060 | Let's try to increase, not decrease,

03:56:23.820 | the amount of love in this space.

03:56:25.140 | What do you think about some of the harshness

03:56:26.980 | of his language, which we talked about?

03:56:29.420 | R-word in the past, when you used N-word,

03:56:33.860 | all of that kind of stuff.

03:56:34.700 | - When he, what he used to do?

03:56:36.100 | I mean, I just--

03:56:37.020 | - No, like, what do you think about it?

03:56:37.860 | Like, do you give him advice?

03:56:39.300 | - To not speak a certain way?

03:56:41.220 | - No, like a little more civility?

03:56:43.100 | I was just trying to get a second opinion on this.

03:56:44.980 | - Second opinion about--

03:56:45.820 | - Normie people, non-internet people,

03:56:47.140 | are way more extreme than--

03:56:48.820 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:56:49.660 | - She's way more extreme.

03:56:50.660 | - No, that's not true.

03:56:52.100 | Okay, so here's the thing for me, okay?

03:56:54.500 | I was not online until three years ago, at all.

03:56:57.740 | Like, I would watch YouTube.

03:56:58.980 | That's pretty much all I would do.

03:57:00.580 | I wouldn't do anything else, really.

03:57:02.020 | I didn't grow up playing video games or anything.

03:57:04.740 | So I'm like extremely new to everything.

03:57:06.740 | So when I came into this world

03:57:10.340 | and I started seeing clips from him in the past,

03:57:12.860 | I don't think I really had much of an opinion

03:57:14.420 | because it just sounded like

03:57:15.460 | it was just a different words that we're using,

03:57:17.300 | but it didn't mean anything.

03:57:18.700 | That's what it feels like.

03:57:19.540 | It was just like, if you're saying the R word,

03:57:21.660 | it's because you just want to call someone stupid,

03:57:23.220 | but you want to do it a little bit more.

03:57:25.300 | But it's not like, it didn't feel like it was a,

03:57:27.860 | it's not like racist more like--

03:57:29.060 | - Yeah, but I'm not getting an agreement on this side here.

03:57:32.780 | - So like, if he was saying the F word

03:57:34.500 | because it was just like a word to insult someone

03:57:37.780 | and he wasn't, like, I don't think he was ever,

03:57:39.660 | I don't think you were ever homophobic back in the day

03:57:41.580 | or anything like that.

03:57:42.420 | I think it was just like a way to express yourself

03:57:45.300 | maybe back then.

03:57:46.140 | I don't know, I didn't do it.

03:57:47.020 | There's no videos of me or anything

03:57:48.260 | 'cause I wasn't even online back then.

03:57:49.540 | - Yeah, so my case was,

03:57:51.180 | I definitely don't think Stephen is homophobic,

03:57:54.460 | or racist, or any of those, obviously.

03:57:55.740 | So there's a good heart there and a good mind.

03:57:59.300 | I was just saying--

03:58:00.140 | - He just likes being mean, I think.

03:58:02.220 | - Well, there is some, you lose yourself

03:58:04.300 | and forget the bigger picture

03:58:05.540 | that he's pushing for more effective discourse

03:58:09.180 | on the internet.

03:58:10.020 | He's like an inspiration to a lot of people,

03:58:11.420 | especially now, of how you can use effective conversation

03:58:14.860 | to make for a better world, to radicalize people,

03:58:18.260 | and so on.

03:58:19.080 | And then you lose some of that power

03:58:21.020 | by losing yourself in the language,

03:58:24.940 | just more language of emotion

03:58:26.500 | versus effective communication.

03:58:28.460 | - I would say-- - But it's a gray area.

03:58:30.460 | - I would say something that is probably recently done

03:58:32.420 | in that case, because he's been joking about women a lot.

03:58:35.540 | Like, it's women's fault, they're bad.

03:58:37.820 | It's been a lot of jokes when it comes to misogyny,

03:58:40.380 | I guess, in your community.

03:58:41.700 | And I think it's actually turned people

03:58:43.340 | a little bit that way.

03:58:44.180 | - That's why we've done the recent misogyny.

03:58:45.580 | - Yes, so I guess that's actually true,

03:58:47.980 | because I don't think it was clear enough.

03:58:50.940 | I don't think it actually was.

03:58:51.940 | I think you did that mistake.

03:58:53.580 | But I think back then I was even saying,

03:58:56.100 | like, hey, you should probably not,

03:58:57.300 | like, you probably should not do that.

03:59:00.260 | 'Cause it actually is pretty hard for me,

03:59:01.620 | 'cause whenever I come into his community, like his chat,

03:59:04.200 | people are just gonna spam, it's like a woman moment.

03:59:06.020 | It's a woman moment whenever I say something,

03:59:07.580 | and it's kind of like, yeah, it's getting pretty annoying,

03:59:10.020 | as I said, it's just annoying

03:59:11.180 | when you see it every single day.

03:59:12.820 | - There you go, wisdom from somebody younger than you.

03:59:17.060 | - Wisdom can come from all kind of people.

03:59:19.260 | Yeah, of course, just sometimes in very limited quantities,

03:59:21.580 | depends on the age.

03:59:22.420 | - Oh boy.

03:59:23.260 | - You can learn something from anybody.

03:59:25.220 | - What advice would you give to young people,

03:59:27.540 | the both of you, that you have both audiences

03:59:31.580 | where young people look up to you?

03:59:33.420 | In general, if you were to give advice

03:59:35.260 | to somebody in high school, like how to create a life

03:59:39.560 | they can be proud of, what would you say?

03:59:41.560 | - The most important thing that I've learned

03:59:44.860 | is to view people as different and not better or worse.

03:59:48.620 | And when you view people as different

03:59:49.780 | instead of better or worse,

03:59:50.940 | you learn that there's almost something

03:59:52.900 | that you can learn from anybody.

03:59:54.780 | Like be open and empathetic

03:59:55.900 | towards other people's experiences.

03:59:57.440 | Nobody does anything by random choice.

04:00:00.060 | Like there's always reasons why people act the way they do.

04:00:02.340 | And as long as you're willing to kind of like be open

04:00:04.600 | and receptive to the lived experiences of other people,

04:00:07.280 | you're gonna be able to gather information

04:00:09.020 | and create like a more cohesive and better view of the world

04:00:11.460 | than any of your peers will.

04:00:13.660 | - Do you have any kind of advice

04:00:15.300 | you can give to young folks?

04:00:16.940 | - I feel like something that I see,

04:00:18.200 | especially in America a lot,

04:00:19.540 | is that a lot of people kind of get told what to do

04:00:23.020 | early on, like in high school.

04:00:24.660 | They're supposed to become this thing,

04:00:26.980 | like education-wise, like they're supposed to like

04:00:28.700 | become a doctor or this thing or whatever.

04:00:30.620 | And then they kind of just like give up on things

04:00:32.020 | that they're actually passionate about.

04:00:33.480 | So I think a lot of teenagers get really confused.

04:00:35.880 | They get an education and then they get that job

04:00:38.380 | and they hate everything.

04:00:39.300 | And they think that when they're reaching the job,

04:00:42.260 | when they're reaching like the journey,

04:00:43.340 | they're gonna get happy.

04:00:44.180 | That's like where the happiness is gonna be.

04:00:45.620 | But then when they get to there,

04:00:47.500 | they just hate everything.

04:00:48.660 | And then they become really depressed.

04:00:50.420 | And I've seen this so much.

04:00:51.960 | Like I've seen this all the time.

04:00:53.500 | And it's pretty sad to me to see so many people

04:00:57.040 | that are just wasting time.

04:00:58.260 | And then they just get really confused.

04:01:00.020 | And I don't know, it's the same thing with relationships too.

04:01:03.300 | No one really knows what they want anymore.

04:01:05.060 | I feel like everyone is just kind of doing whatever

04:01:07.100 | like society is saying or the parents are saying

04:01:08.820 | or their friends are saying.

04:01:10.220 | And they're never really doing anything

04:01:12.980 | that's super meaningful anymore.

04:01:14.460 | And like they don't, so what I would say is like,

04:01:17.100 | try to find something that is important to you.

04:01:19.860 | It could be anything really, like some sort of passion,

04:01:22.540 | maybe like your friends, maybe like what matters to you.

04:01:25.940 | Like figuring those things out,

04:01:27.420 | I think is really important.

04:01:28.260 | - And that comes from being able to listen

04:01:30.060 | to like some inner voice.

04:01:31.420 | So it's not gonna come from elsewhere.

04:01:32.260 | - Yeah, I guess.

04:01:33.100 | It's really hard because you're living the life

04:01:34.940 | and like there's things happening around you

04:01:36.460 | and people tell you what to do and what not to do.

04:01:39.060 | No one really has like their own opinions.

04:01:40.660 | Everyone is just kind of like listening

04:01:42.820 | to the cooler thing or, you know.

04:01:45.340 | - Except Steven, he seems to stand on his own.

04:01:47.500 | - True. - Yeah, I guess.

04:01:48.340 | - Free thinking. - Yeah, I'd say so.

04:01:49.340 | - High hashtag.

04:01:50.260 | - Like something I realized too,

04:01:51.700 | 'cause we just went to TwitchCon

04:01:52.940 | and we were talking to a lot of streamers.

04:01:54.700 | - How was that?

04:01:56.100 | - It was interesting.

04:01:56.940 | I thought it was interesting because the few people

04:02:00.020 | that I feel like that seem really cool

04:02:01.900 | and that I look up to like in the streaming world,

04:02:04.300 | all of them wants to quit streaming.

04:02:06.420 | All of them wants to do it.

04:02:07.300 | No one wants, like no one likes it.

04:02:08.780 | And they're so successful.

04:02:10.620 | Like they are around successful people.

04:02:13.220 | They're working every single day.

04:02:15.300 | They're working hard.

04:02:16.140 | They're making so much money.

04:02:17.460 | And everyone is just complaining.

04:02:19.540 | And like, they're complaining about like not being able

04:02:23.140 | to see their partner or, you know,

04:02:25.780 | because they need to live somewhere else.

04:02:27.260 | Because I see these things and they seem extremely unhappy.

04:02:31.220 | But it's so hard for them to just like cut

04:02:33.060 | all this successful stuff off

04:02:35.060 | because that's like what you, you know, learn to do.

04:02:38.500 | And that's like supposed to be like your happiness,

04:02:40.500 | but it isn't.

04:02:41.340 | Everyone is really unhappy.

04:02:42.380 | - Yeah, there's something about,

04:02:43.540 | maybe streaming is different,

04:02:44.980 | but YouTube folks too, I've interacted with a few.

04:02:47.620 | And even in podcasting space,

04:02:50.980 | people become obsessed about the views and numbers

04:02:53.660 | and subscribers and stuff like that.

04:02:55.460 | So I turn, I never talk about that.

04:02:59.020 | I don't pay attention to that.

04:03:02.060 | I feel like that's a drug that destroys your mind.

04:03:06.900 | Your mind as an artist,

04:03:08.460 | ability to create truly unique things.

04:03:12.020 | Also your mind in terms of the anxiety,

04:03:14.020 | the ups and downs of the attention mechanism.

04:03:18.060 | And then also being just,

04:03:20.940 | if something that you make is not popular,

04:03:23.540 | but it meant a lot to you,

04:03:24.940 | you will think of it less because it's not popular.

04:03:28.380 | That's a really dangerous thing.

04:03:29.620 | And because everyone around you is reinforcing,

04:03:32.740 | like I'll get messages like,

04:03:34.700 | "Wow, this thing got this many views or something.

04:03:38.500 | Great job."

04:03:39.660 | It's like, no, you don't get it.

04:03:41.980 | Like that's not, that's not,

04:03:44.140 | everyone is enforcing this,

04:03:45.540 | like this language of views and likes and so on.

04:03:48.980 | And it's correlated of course,

04:03:51.100 | 'cause truly impactful things

04:03:52.340 | will get a lot of attention often,

04:03:55.020 | but it's not on the individual local scale,

04:03:59.300 | like temporarily is,

04:04:00.780 | it can really fuck with your mind.

04:04:03.740 | And I see that in the creators,

04:04:05.620 | they become addicts to the algorithm.

04:04:09.580 | - Lost in chasing views.

04:04:10.900 | Like we know friends that,

04:04:12.140 | we know cool people and then they start streaming

04:04:13.820 | and eventually they're like chasing the dragon of like.

04:04:16.900 | - And they change, yeah.

04:04:18.900 | It's like hard to engage for them anymore.

04:04:19.740 | - They change who they are completely.

04:04:20.580 | And there's like, this is something I've always said

04:04:22.100 | that like one of the biggest blessings

04:04:23.980 | and biggest curses of humanity

04:04:25.340 | is we are very good at acclimating.

04:04:27.060 | Like you can become paralyzed,

04:04:28.340 | you can have all sorts of horrible things happen to you

04:04:29.740 | and you'll get used to it and you'll be okay.

04:04:31.100 | You're gonna have like a good baseline,

04:04:32.500 | but it works the other way too.

04:04:33.500 | And that you can get more and more and more and more

04:04:35.260 | and you acclimate to it almost immediately.

04:04:37.260 | There's like, this is a phenomenon that I bet it happens

04:04:39.540 | in the YouTube world,

04:04:40.380 | but I know what happens in the streaming world

04:04:41.260 | where you're streaming 1000 viewers every day,

04:04:44.100 | huge event happens and you blow up

04:04:45.820 | and you got like 15,000 viewers for a day or two.

04:04:48.420 | And then it starts to go down and down and down

04:04:50.140 | and down and down.

04:04:50.980 | And then after all the drama stayed off,

04:04:52.500 | you're at like 3000 concurrent viewers.

04:04:54.900 | Now in the macro, you went from 1000 to 3000.

04:04:57.660 | That feels awesome.

04:04:58.740 | But you actually feel like shit the whole time

04:05:00.380 | 'cause you're remembering when you had 10 or 15,000

04:05:02.220 | and now everything feels horrible.

04:05:03.780 | And you'll see people climb over time.

04:05:05.420 | They're like, fuck, like, but whatever

04:05:06.420 | that one huge stream I had,

04:05:07.340 | like I've never been able to,

04:05:08.700 | and it's like, dude, you're doing great.

04:05:10.300 | Yeah, that happens a lot.

04:05:11.660 | - There's so many people that we know

04:05:12.740 | that we find super, super cool.

04:05:14.300 | They're passionate about things.

04:05:15.620 | They have so much interest

04:05:17.260 | and then they just get like so addicted to these numbers.

04:05:19.500 | And like all the, everything is just ruined.

04:05:21.900 | Like all the cool things about them is ruined

04:05:23.420 | because they stopped doing the things

04:05:24.580 | that they actually like to do something else

04:05:27.260 | that gives them more viewers and more money.

04:05:28.820 | And it's really sad to see.

04:05:30.660 | - Yeah, that temporary sacrifice that seems temporary

04:05:35.020 | is that it actually destroys you.

04:05:37.620 | Like for one time making a choice,

04:05:39.500 | 'cause I come across those choices often.

04:05:41.420 | Like I can do this.

04:05:42.580 | You can kind of know what's gonna be popular and not.

04:05:46.060 | And you have to ask yourself that question.

04:05:47.740 | Like, is this gonna sacrifice?

04:05:49.860 | - 'Cause if people are sacrificing

04:05:51.460 | like intimate relationships,

04:05:53.340 | they're sacrificing time with their family.

04:05:55.220 | They're sacrificing time with the things

04:05:57.460 | that they feel good about and that they like.

04:06:00.180 | And that's something I kind of realized last year

04:06:03.180 | 'cause I was working so much

04:06:04.460 | and I was just grinding, grinding, grinding

04:06:05.980 | because it was kind of new for me.

04:06:07.340 | And then new years came by and I was like,

04:06:09.580 | wait, what did I even do like the entire year?

04:06:11.980 | Like I traveled to a bunch of places,

04:06:13.820 | but nothing actually really meant anything to me

04:06:15.580 | because I felt like I was just working the entire time.

04:06:17.620 | I felt like I was just numb through the entire year.

04:06:19.780 | And I was really scary.

04:06:23.100 | I rented a super pretty house for a week

04:06:26.380 | with my dad and my sister

04:06:27.740 | 'cause I wanted to spend time with them.

04:06:29.580 | But the entire time I was just streaming

04:06:32.540 | and I actually didn't ever like calm down

04:06:34.780 | and just like chill with them.

04:06:36.220 | And that's like time I'll never get back.

04:06:38.820 | I don't give a shit about the money that I made that week,

04:06:41.100 | but I lost the time.

04:06:43.100 | And like, that is really important to me.

04:06:45.460 | And yeah, and a lot of people are doing that.

04:06:47.860 | And I feel like, as you said,

04:06:49.220 | you can definitely see that in like artists for sure.

04:06:51.860 | I feel like if you look at like artists

04:06:53.500 | like back in the 60s or 70s,

04:06:55.500 | I feel like things were just so much better back then.

04:06:57.740 | And it feels like they were actually making music

04:07:00.220 | that meant something to them.

04:07:01.700 | They were actually making art.

04:07:03.460 | And I feel like today everything is just kind of like

04:07:05.740 | whatever is cool, whatever sells,

04:07:07.340 | whatever sounds in a certain way,

04:07:09.060 | everything is kind of the same thing.

04:07:10.900 | And everything that is very artistic and very cool

04:07:13.460 | is actually not that popular at all.

04:07:16.180 | And that's kind of sad, I think.

04:07:18.100 | - Yeah, of course there's now bigger mechanisms

04:07:20.180 | and platforms to spread stuff, music.

04:07:23.820 | So as long as you can be content with not being popular,

04:07:27.300 | I think you can still create art.

04:07:28.140 | - Yeah, but not like when people get a little popular,

04:07:30.660 | they get addicted to that so fast.

04:07:32.140 | - Yeah, it's weird.

04:07:33.700 | You have been somewhat good,

04:07:35.820 | at least from my outsider perspective,

04:07:37.820 | because I think you, I can at least imagine

04:07:41.060 | you making choices that could make you more popular

04:07:43.620 | and you don't seem to make those choices.

04:07:45.860 | - Like having an orbital problem.

04:07:49.620 | But it is very intentional, like you said.

04:07:51.580 | And I made that choice at every single stage of my life.

04:07:54.420 | One is because from the perspective

04:07:56.060 | of being a carpet cleaner,

04:07:56.900 | my life is way better than that was or ever would have been.

04:07:59.980 | So I'm already doing way better than I ever thought

04:08:01.620 | somebody like me ever could be.

04:08:03.360 | But then two, I super love my job.

04:08:06.400 | Every time I wake up,

04:08:07.300 | every time I fly to a place to do a podcast,

04:08:08.940 | every time I get to talk to really cool people,

04:08:10.180 | every single part about my job, I super like.

04:08:12.060 | If there's something I don't like,

04:08:13.060 | I just cut it off because I don't care.

04:08:14.260 | 'Cause I'm already making plenty of money doing what I do.

04:08:16.060 | And why would I ever wake up and not like what I'm doing

04:08:18.260 | when I can like what I'm doing?

04:08:19.540 | - How do you guys find through that,

04:08:21.300 | given that you love it

04:08:23.580 | and you sometimes maybe lose yourself in the drug of it,

04:08:26.020 | how do you find like work-life balance together

04:08:29.180 | inside a relationship?

04:08:30.940 | Like time for each other?

04:08:32.660 | - I don't at all, so I'm not a good person to ask.

04:08:34.940 | - What do you love more, Mel or Factor?

04:08:38.180 | (laughing)

04:08:39.060 | - Factor is a really good game.

04:08:40.520 | That's like not a fair comparison, okay?

04:08:41.980 | You're talking about one of the best, cleanest games,

04:08:44.060 | best support ever made, cleanest code base.

04:08:46.900 | - I think I'm just saying all this for other reasons.

04:08:48.820 | - Yeah.

04:08:49.660 | - It's more Factor time for me.

04:08:50.700 | (laughing)

04:08:52.020 | - Starting to understand where the misogyny comes from.

04:08:53.900 | By the way, is Factor legit a really good game?

04:08:57.220 | - Yeah, of course, yeah.

04:08:58.060 | - Okay.

04:08:58.900 | - If you're like, do you enjoy programming?

04:09:00.860 | - Of course, that's all I do.

04:09:01.820 | That's all.

04:09:02.660 | - Okay.

04:09:03.500 | - To me, programming is the game in itself

04:09:06.180 | that I enjoy probably more than anything else, but yeah.

04:09:08.340 | - It's very much a game like that.

04:09:09.700 | If you're into stuff like that,

04:09:10.860 | like you can lose hundreds of hours very quickly

04:09:13.180 | to like you have a problem and then you think of a solution

04:09:16.260 | and then you iterate on that over and over and over again

04:09:18.180 | in larger, larger schemes.

04:09:19.260 | Sometimes you gotta redesign stuff.

04:09:20.420 | Sometimes you got like, it's a very much like that kind of game.

04:09:22.140 | - So you're essentially building a factory, like what,

04:09:23.980 | on a foreign planet or something like that?

04:09:26.140 | - Basically, it's like a bunch of,

04:09:27.140 | you're trying to automate different problems

04:09:28.820 | so that you can build bigger things,

04:09:30.260 | so that you can automate bigger problems,

04:09:31.660 | so you can build bigger things

04:09:32.500 | and automate bigger problems, yeah.

04:09:33.340 | - So it's more complicated than like a city building game,

04:09:36.260 | like some city type of thing?

04:09:38.300 | - I wouldn't say it's more complicated.

04:09:39.620 | It's more, like, Factor is like a game of like logic,

04:09:43.120 | like strictly like logic.

04:09:44.620 | - Oh, so you're almost like building a circuit or something.

04:09:46.740 | - Yes, yeah, there's like, there's circuitry

04:09:48.380 | and you've got your N-ORGs, ORG-ATs,

04:09:49.820 | like there's stuff like that.

04:09:50.820 | It's very much like that, like problems.

04:09:51.660 | - What are the enemies in the game?

04:09:53.220 | Like what, what's something attacking?

04:09:54.060 | - They're like bugs that try to bite you

04:09:56.020 | and you can get guns and shoot and kill them, but it's like-

04:09:57.860 | - 'Cause I saw there's like shooting going on.

04:09:59.540 | - Yeah, but that's like a minor,

04:10:00.500 | it's just like another problem to solve

04:10:01.500 | in the game, basically, yeah.

04:10:02.460 | - Okay, all right.

04:10:03.780 | So you see what we did there?

04:10:04.820 | We just started talking about the game as we're trying.

04:10:07.580 | Oh my God, that's like a-

04:10:08.420 | - That's a really good game, okay.

04:10:09.740 | - That's horrible.

04:10:10.620 | Anyway, is there, is that basically the struggle,

04:10:13.500 | not a struggle, how to get human, like intimate human time?

04:10:18.500 | - I feel like it was like that a little bit more

04:10:21.100 | in the past.

04:10:21.940 | I feel like it's been better lately,

04:10:24.800 | but I think it's because when we started dating,

04:10:27.580 | I wasn't streaming and I kind of just like gave up

04:10:30.420 | like my trip in New Zealand.

04:10:32.220 | I give up like, like I left Sweden.

04:10:35.540 | So I was just like in LA, which I hate, I hate LA.

04:10:38.860 | I don't like LA at all.

04:10:40.580 | It's hard to make friends that are like real,

04:10:43.580 | that are into the same stuff as you.

04:10:45.460 | It was just really hard for me to connect with anyone,

04:10:47.660 | especially also like being a European

04:10:49.780 | and like being around Americans was very strange.

04:10:52.180 | So the only thing I had when I came here was him.

04:10:56.140 | And I didn't expect-

04:10:58.380 | - Bad situation.

04:10:59.220 | - Because yeah, because we had like two weeks

04:11:01.940 | of hanging out and like he would be on his computer

04:11:03.640 | sometimes and like do emails and stuff,

04:11:05.280 | but I wasn't thinking that he would stream

04:11:07.220 | like 12 hours a day.

04:11:08.060 | And it was pretty, like it was pretty intense,

04:11:09.600 | like in the beginning of it as well.

04:11:10.780 | And I realized it was really hard to like get attention

04:11:13.740 | or get time because his like love meter would be like full

04:11:18.020 | if I was just in the house.

04:11:19.260 | And that's just kind of like the way he is.

04:11:20.860 | And for me back then when I didn't have anything else to do,

04:11:23.860 | was kind of like a, it was kind of crazy for me.

04:11:28.100 | I feel like right now, because I do work as well

04:11:30.460 | and I have things going for me

04:11:32.900 | and I have other friends now that I made,

04:11:35.880 | I feel like it's a lot easier.

04:11:37.280 | 'Cause, and I can definitely like enjoy

04:11:39.120 | just like being in separate rooms

04:11:40.680 | and just like hearing him in the background is really nice.

04:11:42.520 | So I can sit and paint and like in my room

04:11:45.320 | and I will do that for hours while I'm just like hearing

04:11:47.160 | a scream in the background.

04:11:48.000 | It's kind of like comforting that he's just there.

04:11:50.600 | It feels nice.

04:11:51.420 | I like it.

04:11:52.260 | - 'Cause to you that's the sound of happiness.

04:11:53.800 | - Yes, because I know he's right there.

04:11:55.240 | Yeah, it's nice.

04:11:56.080 | And they'll come in and check on me sometimes.

04:11:57.400 | And it's kind of like, it's actually very comforting.

04:11:59.360 | It's very nice.

04:12:00.200 | I like it.

04:12:01.240 | - Yeah, I think that's kind of what a relationship is.

04:12:03.640 | Like you do fun things together

04:12:04.960 | and you share moments together,

04:12:06.760 | but also just like having someone like around you

04:12:08.880 | is really, really nice.

04:12:10.400 | And I think that's probably, maybe it's me growing up.

04:12:13.780 | Maybe that's what it is.

04:12:15.840 | And like, I start liking like the kind of,

04:12:17.820 | I feel like we're like an old couple,

04:12:19.240 | like we're like 80 and we're just like around.

04:12:21.400 | We don't really have to talk much.

04:12:22.840 | It's nice to just do that.

04:12:23.680 | - And that fills your love meter?

04:12:25.880 | I like this terminology, love meter.

04:12:28.680 | - I need both.

04:12:29.880 | - Okay, you're making it sound like

04:12:32.440 | that I'm like craving like crazy time.

04:12:34.600 | - I'm not saying anything.

04:12:35.440 | I haven't said a single thing at all.

04:12:36.280 | - You're making faces right now.

04:12:37.360 | I know exactly what you're thinking.

04:12:38.200 | - There's so much judging going on.

04:12:40.000 | - There's no judging at all.

04:12:41.120 | - No, but like, I think whenever we do plan something out,

04:12:44.640 | like if we go on a trip like every other month

04:12:47.040 | or once a month, I feel like usually like that's enough

04:12:51.120 | as long as he's not playing Factorio the entire time.

04:12:54.040 | Like if I feel like he's going on these trips for me

04:12:56.560 | and he's not like doing things for me

04:12:58.920 | or he's not interested in like spending time

04:13:01.200 | or like being present with me,

04:13:02.680 | then I'll feel like,

04:13:03.520 | I just feel like I'm just wasting time right now

04:13:05.040 | and then I get kind of disappointed.

04:13:06.640 | But otherwise I think this, like, this is fun.

04:13:08.920 | I think this is like spending time together

04:13:10.760 | 'cause we're like doing something together.

04:13:11.960 | Yeah, it's fun, yeah.

04:13:14.120 | - My love meter is full.

04:13:15.880 | - Your love meter is full.

04:13:17.400 | - It's my social life.

04:13:18.400 | Otherwise it's fine.

04:13:19.240 | - We like to think about it that way,

04:13:20.680 | that like I need like a little bit more of like

04:13:22.400 | this one thing, like quality time.

04:13:24.280 | And he needs like almost zero quality time.

04:13:27.000 | But like, let's say that we took away like physical touch,

04:13:29.360 | you would probably not be very happy.

04:13:31.680 | - So you need physical touch.

04:13:32.880 | So it's not just Factorio, huh?

04:13:34.160 | - No, I'm a very cuddly person.

04:13:35.280 | - Yeah, like cuddly.

04:13:36.520 | And then you're like, I guess like acts of service.

04:13:38.440 | Like if I do something for you, you get really happy.

04:13:40.280 | - Like hot chocolate.

04:13:41.120 | - Yeah, like if I give him hot chocolate in the morning,

04:13:43.280 | he gets really happy, so.

04:13:44.640 | - The actual, it's not the hot chocolate,

04:13:46.720 | it's the giving of the hot chocolate.

04:13:48.080 | - No, it's just the hot chocolate.

04:13:49.720 | But if she gives it to me,

04:13:50.640 | I didn't have to get it myself.

04:13:51.480 | - It's just physical touch that you like.

04:13:52.480 | - That's really nice.

04:13:54.320 | - All right, well, if you have to choose

04:13:55.560 | between Factorio and the drama or political discourse.

04:14:00.120 | - Probably political discourse, probably my calling.

04:14:02.400 | But I am a good Factorio player.

04:14:04.200 | - But what role exactly does Factorio play

04:14:07.840 | in your streaming life?

04:14:10.000 | - Oh, well, right now it's just,

04:14:11.120 | usually there are like these games

04:14:12.360 | that I play in the background as I have conversations,

04:14:14.040 | 'cause it's hard for me to just sit on the computer

04:14:15.320 | and just talk and not like be playing a game

04:14:17.560 | at the same time.

04:14:18.400 | So it's just something to keep me kind of like occupied.

04:14:19.920 | You know, I was gonna be able to buy

04:14:20.760 | like little like widget things, I guess.

04:14:22.000 | - Yeah, that's what yours is.

04:14:22.840 | - Yeah, basically, yeah.

04:14:23.680 | - So I'm just like Minecraft or Factorio for me.

04:14:26.000 | - All right, well, my love meter is full from this.

04:14:30.400 | Mel, thank you so much for joining us.

04:14:32.320 | - Thank you for having me.

04:14:33.240 | - This was really fun.

04:14:34.440 | You guys are fascinating human beings.

04:14:36.880 | Thank you for existing.

04:14:38.560 | I'm glad to live in a world where you exist.

04:14:40.680 | I can't wait to see what kind of beautiful thing

04:14:44.160 | you create next and the crazy kind of art that you create

04:14:48.560 | through the different people you interact with.

04:14:50.640 | Destiny, Steven, you're an amazing human.

04:14:52.440 | Thank you so much for talking to me.

04:14:53.680 | It's an honor.

04:14:54.520 | Hope to talk with you again.

04:14:55.840 | I'm talking to Ben Shapiro.

04:14:57.000 | You've given me a lot of inspiration.

04:14:59.080 | It's an honor to talk to the Ben Shapiro of the left.

04:15:01.760 | - Yeah, well, thanks a lot for having me.

04:15:03.040 | I appreciate it.

04:15:03.880 | - Thank you, guys. - It's been fun.

04:15:04.720 | - Thank you.

04:15:06.040 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Destiny.

04:15:08.720 | To support this podcast,

04:15:09.880 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

04:15:12.600 | And now let me leave you with some words from Lewis Carroll.

04:15:16.000 | "It's no use going back to yesterday

04:15:18.800 | "because I was a different person then."

04:15:22.000 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

04:15:25.400 | (upbeat music)

04:15:28.000 | (upbeat music)

04:15:30.600 | Thanks for watching.

Destiny: Politics, Free Speech, Controversy, Sex, War, and Relationships | Lex Fridman Podcast #337

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