Beware Of "Win-Win" in Negotiations | Chris Voss & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.000 | Let's talk about how to get to a win-win.

00:00:04.780 | Win-win is just great collaboration.

00:00:05.780 | I mean, in point of fact, it should be win-win, which might only be emotional win-win.

00:00:12.500 | Now, the phraseology win-win, I know that if someone opens a negotiation with me and

00:00:19.380 | they say right off the bat, look, I want to do a win-win deal with you, that correlates

00:00:24.960 | extremely highly with someone who's trying to pick my pocket.

00:00:30.680 | So if you use that phrase in the first five minutes, I already know where you're coming

00:00:35.400 | from.

00:00:36.400 | You're trying to get me to drop my guard.

00:00:37.400 | It's you win, I lose.

00:00:40.480 | And this came up on an Instagram post I put up recently, which is essentially watch out

00:00:45.960 | for the person that says win-win.

00:00:47.240 | Now, I didn't say win-win is bad.

00:00:51.600 | I said watch out for the person that says it.

00:00:55.000 | Also, you got to be cautious if you like some of the win-win mindset, then people set themselves

00:01:02.680 | up to just get slaughtered by the person who's expressing a desire for win-win and looking

00:01:08.400 | to pick their pocket.

00:01:09.400 | Like if I feel win-win in my heart, you go, let's do a win-win deal.

00:01:13.120 | If I don't watch it, I'm like, OK, what do you want?

00:01:16.280 | And then I find myself giving away the store.

00:01:18.200 | So there's a lot behind the win-win phraseology that you have to have a complete understanding

00:01:24.040 | of.

00:01:25.040 | In point of fact, both sides should feel good about the outcome.

00:01:28.000 | And isn't that the definition of win-win?

00:01:29.920 | Well, kind of, sort of.

00:01:33.280 | But it's how they feel about it more than really what they got.

00:01:38.440 | So in a benevolent negotiation among friends, where are we going to go to eat?

00:01:43.720 | Where are we going on vacation?

00:01:44.800 | What route are we going to take?

00:01:47.560 | People really just want to be heard out more than anything else, which operationally seems

00:01:53.320 | to be-- I don't understand how it's going to make any difference.

00:01:56.760 | Makes all the difference in the world.

00:01:59.840 | And what's the best way for somebody to feel heard out?

00:02:02.800 | Well, I'm going to start out by telling you-- describing to you, not telling you, but describing

00:02:08.920 | to you what my best guess is on your perspective.

00:02:15.280 | Because it's really calibrating me, actually finding out where your position is.

00:02:21.320 | And the only way I can find out where your position actually is, I'm going to increase

00:02:26.360 | you telling me if I start taking a guess at it first.

00:02:30.160 | Because you're immediately, right away, you're immediately going to tell me either I'm right

00:02:34.040 | or I'm wrong.

00:02:35.040 | You're going to correct me.

00:02:36.120 | Correction is a satisfying thing to do.

00:02:42.480 | And you're going to be much more candid with me.

00:02:44.520 | If you're correcting me than if I'm asking you.

00:02:48.760 | And you'll feel good about correcting me.

00:02:50.240 | So it's going to-- there's all these great emotional lubricants to me getting you to

00:02:54.600 | correct me.

00:02:55.600 | So I'm going to start out by saying like, here's what I think you're thinking.

00:02:58.800 | Here's how I think you're approaching this.

00:03:00.840 | Here's what I think you're wanting out of this.

00:03:04.520 | Not what you should be, but what you probably are based on your perspective.

00:03:09.920 | And that's going to accelerate the conversation exponentially.

00:03:14.000 | Like it's ridiculous how much faster things are going to go.

00:03:16.400 | And then it becomes both an information gathering and a rapport building process simultaneously

00:03:21.520 | instead of separately, which is what makes this approach faster, even though it seems

00:03:26.720 | more indirect.

00:03:28.240 | So if we're getting ready to-- let's say you and I are going to take a car trip to San

00:03:33.400 | Francisco from here.

00:03:34.400 | And I'm going to say, all right, so my guess is you want to take the most direct route

00:03:39.800 | because you hate wasting time.

00:03:42.600 | And you're probably going to say to me, no, no, no, no, I want to go up the Pacific Coast

00:03:45.480 | Highway because it's a beautiful stretch of country.

00:03:48.760 | Like I realize it's going to be a waste of time if we go up the Pacific Coast because

00:03:52.200 | we've got to jump off it at some point, but I really want to see the scenery.

00:03:56.880 | You would have-- I've taken a guess of what you want, and you're going to come back real

00:04:00.400 | quick and correct me.

00:04:02.200 | And then maybe I'm thinking time on the trip, but I've forgotten how beautiful it is to

00:04:08.200 | roll up the coast.

00:04:10.360 | And so when you throw that out, I'll be like, oh, yeah, it is a beautiful ride, and we might

00:04:16.600 | not get another shot.

00:04:18.160 | Who knows what's going to happen?

00:04:19.360 | So yeah, now that we're having a conversation, I'd rather run up the Pacific Coast Highway

00:04:25.100 | before we go inland and make the trip.

00:04:28.840 | And that's how we get to-- we collaborate for a better outcome, maybe a better idea

00:04:35.280 | than what I had in mind in the first place.

00:04:37.520 | I love that because what you just described is hypothesis testing.

00:04:41.920 | It's the way scientists are trained.

00:04:43.960 | Many people don't know this, but they teach us in science not to ask questions, but to

00:04:48.820 | start with a question like how does the brain develop or something.

00:04:54.600 | And then you say a hypothesis, and you test hypotheses, and then you figure out if they're

00:04:58.040 | right or wrong.

00:04:59.040 | And that takes you through a set of decision trees, and you eventually get at what you

00:05:02.400 | hope is some core truth, and then hopefully others arrive there as well, and you get a

00:05:07.280 | consensus.

00:05:08.280 | So I love the idea of hypothesis testing.

00:05:09.680 | In fact, when you said take the most direct route from where we are now in Los Angeles

00:05:14.280 | to San Francisco, I like to take 101, not the 5.

00:05:18.720 | The 5 is faster, so I immediately think-- but I like 101.

00:05:22.520 | First of all, there are a couple of really great taco and hamburger spots along the way

00:05:25.480 | that I used to stop with my bulldog and get.

00:05:27.680 | Also, you get to see the coast, and it makes those extra two hours completely worth it.

00:05:32.600 | And so you're exactly right in that working through the decision tree doesn't necessarily

00:05:40.120 | mean presuming that the hypothesis is right.

00:05:45.360 | It sounds like you'd be equally OK with the hypothesis being wrong, because really what

00:05:49.960 | you're trying to do is just learn.

00:05:52.080 | And in learning, set up this collaboration.

00:05:55.100 | I love that.

00:05:56.100 | It's one of those cool things.

00:05:57.600 | First of all, when you talk about hypothesis, when my son Brandon was involved in a company,

00:06:01.880 | he's out on his own now, but he used to always say hypothesis, test your hypothesis.

00:06:06.120 | He always used that term.

00:06:07.800 | And then even now, if we were talking about it, and you just said you knew some hot dog

00:06:11.520 | and hamburger places, I'd be like, holy cow, I didn't even know that.

00:06:16.000 | Yeah, I want to check those places out.

00:06:18.480 | So that's how you discover new stuff in a conversation.

00:06:20.960 | I love it.

00:06:22.720 | And also, I'm sure people are noting to not say the words win-win when approaching any

00:06:26.560 | kind of negotiation.

00:06:28.380 | What do you think it is about those little catchphrases that signal lack of authenticity

00:06:34.840 | or trustworthiness?

00:06:36.240 | Because you could imagine that somebody-- I come to you and say, hey, Chris, let's do

00:06:41.000 | some collaborative thing for social media, for podcast, and this is going to be a win-win

00:06:45.480 | for both of us.

00:06:46.480 | Now I know to never say that with you.

00:06:48.560 | But you could imagine that somebody really means that.

00:06:51.900 | But for you, it sounds like it's a flag that they're trying to pull one over.

00:06:57.880 | It correlates really strongly with the people that are definitely trying to cut your throat.

00:07:02.680 | And I've had them admit that to me candidly.

00:07:08.360 | I've experienced it.

00:07:10.520 | Like if somebody throws win-win out early to me, I'll say, all right, I think I know

00:07:14.880 | where this is going, but let me explore it.

00:07:17.960 | And they'll say, yeah, this is a great opportunity for you.

00:07:21.000 | It's another top.

00:07:23.320 | And we're going to put you in a room with all these billionaires, and there's going

00:07:26.020 | to be all this opportunity for you if you just come in and speak.

00:07:30.160 | And we don't have a budget.

00:07:31.840 | Well, I've gotten that one before.

00:07:35.880 | The famous the world will just work out in your favor because it's going to work out

00:07:40.200 | in my favor.

00:07:41.200 | Right.

00:07:42.200 | Yeah.

00:07:43.200 | Yeah.

00:07:44.200 | Exactly right.

00:07:45.200 | I've been on the receiving end of those offers many a time.

00:07:48.560 | Fascinating.

00:07:49.560 | Conversely, what sorts of openers do you think establish the best rapport and benevolent

00:07:57.200 | discovery of a topic?

00:07:58.680 | Well, what I'm saying correlates real strongly with people I want to do business with.

00:08:03.880 | If they figured out something that they know is valuable for me and they've just done it,

00:08:08.840 | and they've just offered it, like right off the bat, no strings attached.

00:08:13.760 | They found a way to drop something on me that's valuable.

00:08:17.520 | They didn't approach me with their hand out.

00:08:20.920 | They approached me with some sort of generosity, like a friend of mine, Joe Polish, runs this

00:08:26.960 | outfit called Genius Network.

00:08:28.460 | Joe says, "Life gives to the giver."

00:08:33.000 | Joe did a bunch of favors for me before I ever joined.

00:08:36.960 | And he was trying to help me out and get my book sold, and he asked me to come in and

00:08:40.720 | speak and he'd emphasized my book on his podcast and in different conversations.

00:08:49.000 | And I finally paid the fee to join, because he had done so much for me.

00:08:54.600 | There's not much Joe could ask me for right now, because he's done so much for me that

00:08:59.600 | he gets a blanket pretty much, "Yes, right away.

00:09:01.640 | What do you want?

00:09:02.640 | What do you need?"

00:09:03.640 | Because he's just generous.

00:09:05.400 | And the generosity approach universally, I'm seeing a lot of really successful people that

00:09:11.040 | lead by generosity.

00:09:13.360 | And so if you start out, if you give me a five-star review of the book on Amazon, no

00:09:20.400 | strings attached, or anything like that goes a long, long way to somebody who wants to

00:09:27.260 | establish a long-term relationship, collaboration.

00:09:31.220 | When I first opened my laboratory in 2011, I had a technician at the time who had been

00:09:37.080 | a technician for a lot of years.

00:09:38.680 | And there's this culture in science of people borrowing things from laboratories and not

00:09:44.000 | giving them back or breaking them.

00:09:45.800 | These can be little things like a small instrument or a forceps.

00:09:50.880 | But as a student or postdoc, these are the things that you covet, like a really nice

00:09:54.600 | pair of forceps.

00:09:55.600 | It's like a great thing.

00:09:57.000 | You drop them once, they're not good anymore, by the way.

00:09:59.840 | You have to treat them with respect.

00:10:02.120 | Surgical tools have to be treated with respect.

00:10:03.760 | These are very fine instruments.

00:10:05.740 | And people used to come by our lab all the time and borrow stuff from us.

00:10:10.060 | And he'd always lend it out.

00:10:11.400 | And I was like, "What are you doing?"

00:10:13.360 | But any time I went to go borrow something, he'd say, "Do not borrow anything from anybody

00:10:18.200 | else because then we're going to owe them."

00:10:20.560 | Right now, everybody owes us everything.

00:10:23.040 | And I was like, "You're running up our budget giving away these instruments.

00:10:25.200 | They come back with the forceps, dented and stuff."

00:10:27.300 | And he said, "Just trust me.

00:10:28.960 | This is the way to do it."

00:10:30.260 | And I don't recall ever "cashing in" on any of that, but he was exactly right.

00:10:35.120 | When I eventually decided to move institutions, we'd given away so much and we had asked for

00:10:40.560 | so very little, maybe nothing, that when you leave a place, typically there can be a little

00:10:46.120 | bad blood.

00:10:47.360 | And all we got was, "Sorry to see you go," kind of stuff.

00:10:50.840 | Had it been me, I would have been in a kind of an exchange of, "Oh, we ask for things.

00:10:54.600 | We give things."

00:10:55.600 | It's kind of a neighborhood.

00:10:56.600 | I grew up in a neighborhood where you'd borrow eggs or milk from the neighbor.

00:10:59.400 | Remember those days?

00:11:00.400 | I don't know if people do that any longer.

00:11:03.560 | But I think it falls well into what you're describing, that when you just do things for

00:11:08.000 | people out of goodness, then sure, you sort of have a history where you could return to

00:11:16.500 | that they owe you.

00:11:17.500 | But there's also just something good about just doing things out of goodness and also

00:11:21.060 | not asking for so much and expecting people to provide that.

00:11:26.020 | So I love that.

00:11:27.960 | And I actually-- I love providing good reviews for things I like.

00:11:32.760 | On the phone, when the airline-- we don't do this anymore.

00:11:37.960 | We book our own flights.

00:11:38.960 | But anytime I get help on the phone, and if it's really great help, I'll say, "How can

00:11:43.440 | I help?"

00:11:44.440 | And they'll say, "Oh, it would mean a lot if you would send an email to my business

00:11:47.840 | just saying I did a great job," or something like that.

00:11:50.520 | And I actually really enjoy doing that.

00:11:52.780 | So I love the points you're making, because they're very actionable.

00:11:56.380 | [MUSIC PLAYING]

Beware Of "Win-Win" in Negotiations | Chris Voss & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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