Jocko's Workout Routine | Jocko Willink & Dr. Andrew Huberman

00:00:00.000 | What is the balance for you in terms of structure and lack of structure?

00:00:07.520 | And I'm not going to ask for your daily routine.

00:00:09.080 | We know that you get up early, you train.

00:00:10.720 | But I do have some specific questions that I think would be helpful in putting some meat

00:00:14.320 | on the kind of the notions about you.

00:00:17.320 | And again, this isn't to pick into your life, but more to grab, well, it's to pick into

00:00:20.660 | your life.

00:00:21.660 | The, so a question I asked you in the lobby, because it's one that, you know, having seen

00:00:25.960 | your content for a long time and really benefited from it.

00:00:28.480 | I was curious, you get up early at about 4.30, you train every morning.

00:00:34.280 | How long do you train for?

00:00:36.480 | And is there any global structure to that?

00:00:38.480 | And of course everyone needs different programs, but do you, is it like weight training one

00:00:41.760 | day, cardio training the next day?

00:00:43.560 | Are you combining them?

00:00:44.560 | Is it always an hour?

00:00:45.560 | Is it always half an hour?

00:00:46.560 | I think people would benefit from getting a little bit more understanding of what that

00:00:49.360 | looks like for you with the caveat that everyone has different needs, levels of, you know,

00:00:54.000 | background, et cetera.

00:00:55.400 | I'm intensely curious about this and I'm certain I'm not the only one.

00:00:58.520 | So do you want to talk about weightlifting or rock and roll on the guitar?

00:01:01.520 | I want to talk about, um, let's you're, let's talk about the most structured first part

00:01:06.640 | of your day.

00:01:07.640 | And then let's talk about the least structured part of your day, at least the part that you

00:01:09.840 | can share with the, with the world.

00:01:12.040 | Yeah.

00:01:13.040 | Uh, waking up early and I'm going to work out and depending on what's going on that

00:01:18.640 | day, if I have an early flight, I might work out for eight minutes, right?

00:01:24.240 | I might go in and do 2000 meters on the roller, get, get a sweat going hard as I can.

00:01:29.360 | And then I'm done.

00:01:30.360 | And cause I got to go catch a flight.

00:01:31.640 | So that could be happening.

00:01:33.980 | Maybe I'm supposed to go surfing in the morning.

00:01:36.200 | I wake up, the waves are terrible.

00:01:38.120 | And so now I've got nothing to do.

00:01:39.640 | I've planned out, you know, to be surfing for two or three hours and now I'm not going

00:01:44.040 | to go surfing.

00:01:45.040 | So I'm going to go, I'm going to go lift and I'm going to go play in the gym and do a bunch

00:01:47.400 | of stuff.

00:01:48.400 | I'm gonna spend two or three hours in there.

00:01:49.680 | I love doing that.

00:01:51.700 | So the workout could be anywhere between what I just say eight minutes and three hours and

00:01:56.960 | it could be anything in between.

00:01:58.680 | I fully enjoy the, the physical aspect of working out.

00:02:04.140 | So if I have more time to spend in the gym, I'll spend it.

00:02:08.600 | I remember my dad saying at one point, if I retired, I wouldn't know what to do.

00:02:14.000 | And I, I was thinking to myself, are you serious right now?

00:02:16.400 | You know, if I didn't have anything to do, I'd spend six hours a day in the gym.

00:02:19.900 | That's been four hours doing jujitsu.

00:02:22.000 | Like I could fill my day.

00:02:23.260 | I could fill every day with just physical activity, things that I just like doing.

00:02:28.720 | But that's so wake up early, get a sweat going and do I lift?

00:02:33.920 | Yes.

00:02:34.920 | Do I do cardio?

00:02:35.920 | Yes.

00:02:36.920 | Do I run?

00:02:37.920 | Yes.

00:02:38.920 | Do I sprint?

00:02:39.920 | Yes.

00:02:40.920 | Do I lift heavyweights?

00:02:41.920 | Yes.

00:02:42.920 | Do I swing kettlebells?

00:02:43.920 | Yes.

00:02:44.920 | I, I do everything and, and anything and I enjoy all of it and I'm not really good at

00:02:46.440 | any of it.

00:02:47.440 | You know, I'm not, I'm not really good at any one aspect of physical activity.

00:02:53.520 | I, I'm, there's people that are infinitely better at me in every aspect of, and I'm not

00:02:58.960 | just talking about, oh, this guy's a world-class limp.

00:03:00.880 | No, there's like a guy named Fred down at the gym that can deadlift more than me.

00:03:04.880 | There was a guy when I was at SEAL team two, there was a guy who was probably five, seven

00:03:11.160 | and he looked kind of chubby and he was older than me and he could run faster than me and

00:03:17.680 | he could bench more than me.

00:03:18.680 | Those guys that were out there.

00:03:19.680 | Yeah.

00:03:20.680 | It was just so bothersome.

00:03:21.680 | Yeah.

00:03:22.680 | They're out there.

00:03:23.680 | They, they, they got some engine in there related to something.

00:03:25.960 | I mean, I do think there are genetic differences in terms of people's resilience and workout,

00:03:30.280 | but even just grip strength is highly, highly subjected to like genetic influences, maximum

00:03:35.400 | grip strength.

00:03:36.400 | But of course there's a huge range in what people can develop, but I guarantee your grip

00:03:40.760 | strength is, is greater than mine.

00:03:43.280 | People ask me this all the time.

00:03:44.280 | Who would win in arm wrestling between you and Jocko?

00:03:46.640 | My Jocko.

00:03:47.640 | Who would win in jiu-jitsu?

00:03:48.640 | Jocko.

00:03:49.640 | You know, there's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.

00:03:51.080 | I have to imagine they're putting their body behind it.

00:03:53.360 | They're putting their back in.

00:03:54.360 | It's not just that.

00:03:55.360 | Like there is legitimate technique in arm wrestling.

00:03:57.480 | There's hope for me yet.

00:03:58.880 | Yeah.

00:03:59.880 | There's, no, like if we could bring a female arm wrestler in here that knows how to arm

00:04:03.440 | wrestle, because I don't know how to arm wrestle either.

00:04:05.640 | And she would be both of us because there's a lot of, there's a lot more technique in

00:04:09.800 | arm wrestling than you know.

00:04:11.920 | Then most people recognize there's all these little games that are going on.

00:04:15.360 | There's all this little arm position that you get.

00:04:17.760 | So just like everything else, it's technique.

00:04:20.480 | There's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.

00:04:22.040 | That's good to know.

00:04:23.040 | I didn't know that about arm wrestling.

00:04:24.040 | I think we all start off with some genetic predispositions, both good and bad for different

00:04:28.960 | things.

00:04:29.960 | And then there's, as far as we know, there's a huge range based through neuroplasticity

00:04:33.520 | and muscle adaptation, et cetera, in what we can obtain.

00:04:36.360 | So I never want genetic predisposition to serve as a barrier.

00:04:39.600 | No one knows also what the upper limits of any of these things are.

00:04:43.000 | And some of the best examples we know from sport and certainly from academia are people

00:04:46.600 | who knew they were at a disadvantage and just worked 10 times harder than everybody else

00:04:50.800 | because they had an ax to grind with their genetic disadvantage, which is really cool

00:04:54.600 | at the face of it.

00:04:56.000 | So you get, you get the training and do you track your training in a detailed way?

00:04:59.800 | Are you keeping track of lifts?

00:05:01.120 | And so I write down what I do and I'll write down, I write down what I do every day.

00:05:06.360 | And that way I can go back and say, you know, what was I doing back then?

00:05:09.200 | Because I might go through some phase where I'm trying to do more pull-ups or I'm trying

00:05:12.560 | to deadlift more and I'm trying, or whatever the, whatever the thing is, I'll go back in

00:05:18.240 | because I got bored of deadlifting after a while.

00:05:20.280 | And let's face it, if you just want to be a good deadlifter, you're not going to be

00:05:24.040 | that fast, right?

00:05:25.040 | You're, you're going to be slow on long runs.

00:05:28.720 | So you don't want to go too deep into deadlifting and you don't also don't want to be so good

00:05:31.760 | at long runs that you can't deadlift, you know, a good amount of weight.

00:05:36.140 | So I got to go through phases and I'll get into something for a while and I'll get into

00:05:39.700 | something else.

00:05:40.700 | So I do log down what I'm doing.

00:05:41.740 | So I can look back and say, oh dang, you know, I'm, I'm not even close to as strong as I

00:05:46.180 | used to be.

00:05:47.180 | Need to get back to that.

00:05:48.620 | I'm fascinated by the concept of energy.

00:05:50.220 | I think it's one of the most interesting aspects in all of biology, all of psychology and all

00:05:54.220 | of life.

00:05:55.220 | And what, when I say energy, I mean the distinction between being back on your heels, flat footed

00:06:00.640 | or forward center of mass, you know, and I get the impression.

00:06:04.980 | And I think everyone gets the impression that you're somebody with a lot of energy.

00:06:09.060 | And I wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy and you feel like you have

00:06:13.660 | to burn it off with this physical activity and work and other demands in your life.

00:06:19.160 | Or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral and exercise and physical

00:06:24.400 | activity gives you energy?

00:06:26.180 | Because I think this is one of the key things out there, I think that acts as a barrier

00:06:31.060 | for people doing more with their body because they, maybe they don't want to tire themselves

00:06:35.420 | out or maybe they don't feel like they have enough energy to begin with.

00:06:39.460 | It's also feeds into this idea that, oh, you know, some people just have a lot of energy,

00:06:43.500 | they're really physical and other people aren't.

00:06:45.580 | So on, let's just say on most days, do you wake up feeling like you want to burn off

00:06:51.780 | energy, build energy?

00:06:53.300 | What does exercise mean to you?

00:06:54.540 | And then maybe we can talk about some of the underlying stuff going on there.

00:06:56.820 | Cause I think we both might find it interesting.

00:06:59.260 | I would say it's both, right?

00:07:01.180 | There's no way I can sit here and say, oh yeah, every day that alarm clock goes off

00:07:04.980 | and I'm like, oh yeah, let's rock and roll.

00:07:07.460 | Not certainly.

00:07:08.460 | That's not the case.

00:07:09.460 | It's also certainly not the case that every day I'm like, oh God, not again.

00:07:12.940 | No.

00:07:13.940 | I'd say most of the time the alarm clock goes off and I don't think a bunch.

00:07:17.980 | Like when my alarm clock goes off, I don't, I don't think a bunch, I don't debate with

00:07:22.020 | myself.

00:07:23.020 | I'm not negotiating.

00:07:24.020 | I just, the thing goes off and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

00:07:27.740 | Sort of robotic.

00:07:29.060 | Now this, this much I can say, when you go and work out, you're going to feel better.

00:07:33.380 | You will get energy from working out you.

00:07:35.560 | That is, that is a guarantee.

00:07:38.060 | If you go work out, you're going to feel better.

00:07:39.540 | If you go break a sweat, you're going to feel better.

00:07:41.580 | You're going to get more energy from it.

00:07:43.460 | And look, you got to go really, really hard to where now you feel more tired when you're

00:07:50.900 | done.

00:07:51.900 | And even that, I mean, you got to go psycho.

00:07:53.780 | I'll do that occasionally, but I don't do that on a daily basis.

00:07:57.220 | You know, at the end of a day, if I wake up, lift, run, surf, and then I do jujitsu in

00:08:04.660 | the afternoon, like at the end of that day, I'm tired and I feel tired.

00:08:11.220 | But normal day working out just makes you feel better.

00:08:14.780 | It definitely gives you, it definitely gives me energy I should say, cause I guess I'm

00:08:17.900 | not everybody.

00:08:18.900 | Yeah.

00:08:19.900 | It's, I think it's a very important point because one of the things that we are learning

00:08:23.460 | from circadian biology, you know, time of day effects and sunlight and all that stuff

00:08:27.540 | that we talked about in our podcast that you've done intuitively, right?

00:08:30.380 | This is what we kind of arrived to.

00:08:31.380 | It was kind of crazy.

00:08:32.380 | Last time we had a conversation is that so many of the things that science is telling

00:08:35.660 | us to do and that we emphasize on the podcast, this podcast you've been doing or are built

00:08:40.740 | into military schedules.

00:08:41.740 | And one of them is this notion of waking up early and getting physical early in the day.

00:08:46.500 | And I suppose if we were to just throw one blanket rule on the table to encompass the

00:08:51.460 | broadest number of themes, it's that once every 24 hours we each and all get a big increase

00:08:59.300 | in this release of the hormone cortisol, which everyone says, Oh, cortisol, it's terrible.

00:09:03.020 | You know, he's going to burn you out, adrenal burnout, all that stuff.

00:09:06.640 | But it's a non-negotiable peak and you want it to arrive early in the day and viewing

00:09:12.820 | sunlight, physical activity, caffeine, and in particular intense exercise all amplify

00:09:19.860 | that cortisol peak.

00:09:21.460 | In fact, I think it's the numbers I'm seeing is just sunlight viewing gives you a 50% increase

00:09:26.700 | in that cortisol exercise.

00:09:28.020 | On top of that, another 50 to 75% increase.

00:09:30.380 | So this huge release in this hormone that everyone thinks is terrible, but actually

00:09:34.020 | sets this huge wave in motion for the rest of the day, which gives you more energy, higher

00:09:39.460 | levels of immune function, more focus, et cetera.

00:09:42.700 | And does indeed, as you mentioned in your example of your daily life sets a timer so

00:09:46.300 | that about 14 to 16 hours later you're sleepy, which is what you want 14 to 16 hours later.

00:09:51.620 | Unless of course you're running vampire shifts in the military or you're on shift work, but

00:09:54.940 | most people aren't of course.

00:09:56.740 | So I think the idea that movement and exercise gives us energy, I think is an important idea.

00:10:02.180 | And it's something that I was, frankly, I was hoping your answer would be that as opposed

00:10:06.380 | to that, you know, you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because

00:10:11.940 | you have so much energy getting out of bed, because frankly, I never feel that way, but

00:10:15.420 | I always feel better after I train, always.

00:10:18.500 | And of course there are times when I crash in the early afternoon if I train really,

00:10:23.100 | really hard, but usually that's when I over-caffeinate to an outrageous degree and then I don't nourish

00:10:30.100 | after or I over-nourish.

00:10:32.300 | So this is the other thing that eating, the whole rest and digesting, the digest word

00:10:36.540 | in there is meant to, it's there for a reason, which is that when we eat a really big meal,

00:10:41.200 | we actually need to slow down.

00:10:43.220 | So I hate to get into daily schedules at the level of nitpicking and nutrition is about

00:10:47.380 | the most controversial topic on the internet.

00:10:51.300 | But do you nourish after you train?

00:10:54.480 | And if you do, do you do it to the point where you kind of like, okay, I'm mostly full or

00:10:59.740 | I'm full?

00:11:00.740 | Are you trying to really nourish yourself or do you find that eating slows you down?

00:11:04.620 | I find that eating slows me down.

00:11:06.620 | And I would say, again, it's weird how some of this stuff is like, the main reason I got

00:11:11.860 | in the habit of waking up early and working out is because if you do it before anyone

00:11:15.900 | else is awake, then they can't bother you and you can get stuff done, right?

00:11:18.660 | You go to the SEAL team and you get there before anyone else is there.

00:11:21.460 | No one can say, "Hey, can you help us with this?

00:11:23.140 | Hey."

00:11:24.140 | No one sent you an email.

00:11:25.140 | So you get that time, you get it done and it's yours, right?

00:11:27.980 | I remember when you were on my podcast and I don't wear sunglasses when I run in the

00:11:33.140 | morning because I sweat and it fills my sunglasses.

00:11:35.980 | It's not because I want to let the UV light into my eyes.

00:11:39.700 | That's not what-

00:11:40.700 | Cortisol boost.

00:11:41.700 | Yeah, cortisol boost.

00:11:42.700 | I didn't know that.

00:11:43.700 | It's cool that I know it now, but I just did it because I don't want to sweat and my sunglasses

00:11:48.700 | can't see.

00:11:49.700 | So I just run without and I put a hat on.

00:11:51.820 | As far as eating, I don't like to do physically active things with food in my stomach.

00:11:58.820 | That's just the way it is.

00:11:59.820 | Yeah, me either.

00:12:00.820 | And so I don't want to...

00:12:02.020 | And what really keeps that in line for me is I'm doing jujitsu in the afternoon.

00:12:06.220 | And so if I'm eating a big lunch, by the time the afternoon rolls around, I'm kind of, I

00:12:11.380 | got food in my gut and I just don't like that feeling.

00:12:13.620 | So no, I don't eat a big meal until I'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day,

00:12:18.780 | which is usually at night, six, seven o'clock at night, which I guess there's some bad things

00:12:22.500 | about that.

00:12:23.500 | I eat too late.

00:12:24.500 | Well, the data say, you know, if you're, yeah, we could go down a rabbit hole with this and

00:12:29.060 | then someone's going to pull up some little clinical study and then another one that counters

00:12:32.460 | that.

00:12:33.460 | But the data essentially say that having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep

00:12:38.300 | well at night, whatever that means for you, and that allows you to be active and focused

00:12:42.580 | when you need to be active and focused, that's the ideal schedule.

00:12:45.540 | [Music]

Jocko's Workout Routine | Jocko Willink & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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