Andrew Huberman: Productivity, Controversy, Politics, and Relationships

00:00:00.000 | Hardship will show you who your real friends are,

00:00:02.040 | that's for sure.

00:00:03.440 | Okay, read the quote once more.

00:00:05.640 | "Don't eat with people you wouldn't starve with."

00:00:08.740 | The following is a conversation with Andrew Huberman,

00:00:16.400 | his fifth time on the podcast.

00:00:18.480 | He is the host of the Huberman Lab podcast

00:00:22.440 | and is an amazing scientist, teacher, human being,

00:00:26.480 | and someone I'm grateful

00:00:28.520 | to be able to call a close friend.

00:00:31.000 | Also, he has a book coming out next year

00:00:34.160 | that you should pre-order now called "Protocols,"

00:00:37.980 | an operating manual for the human body.

00:00:40.840 | This is the Lex Huberman Podcast.

00:00:42.720 | To support it,

00:00:43.560 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

00:00:45.960 | And now, dear friends, here's Andrew Huberman.

00:00:49.600 | You think there's ever gonna be a day

00:00:51.760 | when you walk away from podcasting?

00:00:53.760 | Definitely.

00:00:55.200 | I mean, I came up within

00:00:58.600 | and then on the periphery of skateboard culture.

00:01:03.320 | And for the record, I was not a great skateboarder.

00:01:05.400 | I always have to say that

00:01:06.240 | 'cause skateboarders are relentless.

00:01:08.400 | If you call something you didn't do or whatever.

00:01:11.200 | I mean, I could do a few things and I loved the community,

00:01:14.480 | and I still have a lot of friends in that community.

00:01:17.000 | Jim Thiebaud at Deluxe, you can look him up.

00:01:19.440 | He's kind of the man behind the whole scene.

00:01:21.680 | I know Tony Hawk, Danny Whale, these guys.

00:01:24.960 | I got to see them come up and get big

00:01:27.360 | and stay big in many cases, start huge companies

00:01:29.640 | like Danny and Colin McKay's are DC.

00:01:31.960 | Some people have a long life in something, some don't.

00:01:35.920 | But one thing I observed and learned a lot from

00:01:37.900 | in skateboarding at the level of observing the skateboarders

00:01:42.840 | and then the ones that started companies.

00:01:45.080 | And then what I also observed in science

00:01:49.160 | and still observe is you do it for a while,

00:01:53.320 | you do it at the highest possible level for you,

00:01:56.800 | and then at some point you pivot

00:01:59.080 | and you start supporting the young talent coming in.

00:02:03.160 | In fact, the greatest scientists,

00:02:04.680 | people like Richard Axel, Catherine Duloc,

00:02:07.840 | there are many other labs in neuroscience, Karl Deisseroth.

00:02:11.600 | They're not just known for doing great science,

00:02:13.640 | they're known for mentoring some of the best scientists

00:02:16.840 | that then go on to start their own labs.

00:02:18.920 | And I think in podcasting,

00:02:20.880 | I am very fortunate I got in in a fairly early wave,

00:02:23.840 | not the earliest wave,

00:02:25.160 | but thanks to your suggestion of doing a podcast,

00:02:27.560 | fairly early wave.

00:02:28.800 | And I'll continue to go as long as it feels right.

00:02:31.680 | And I feel like I'm doing good in the world

00:02:33.040 | and providing good.

00:02:34.200 | But I'm already starting to scout talent.

00:02:36.880 | My company that I started with Rob Moore,

00:02:40.340 | Sycom Media, there's a couple other guys in there too,

00:02:43.000 | Mike Blayback, our photographer, Ian Mackey,

00:02:45.320 | Chris Ray, Martin Fobes.

00:02:48.700 | We are a company that produces podcasts.

00:02:51.280 | Right now that's Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:02:52.680 | but we're launching a new podcast,

00:02:54.180 | Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin.

00:02:55.980 | - Nice.

00:02:56.940 | - And we wanna do more of that kind of thing,

00:02:58.560 | finding a really great talent,

00:02:59.960 | highly qualified people, credentialed people.

00:03:02.560 | And I've got a new kind of obsession

00:03:05.680 | with scouring the internet,

00:03:07.340 | looking for the young talent in science,

00:03:10.260 | in health and related fields.

00:03:12.900 | And so will there be a final episode of the HLP?

00:03:16.920 | - Yeah, I mean, bullet buster cancer aside,

00:03:21.240 | someday they'll be the very last,

00:03:23.320 | and thank you for your interest in science.

00:03:25.260 | And I'll clip out.

00:03:26.500 | - Yeah, I love the idea of walking away

00:03:29.580 | and not be dramatic about it.

00:03:31.240 | - Right.

00:03:32.080 | - When it feels right, you can leave

00:03:33.260 | and you can come back whenever the fuck you want.

00:03:35.600 | - Right.

00:03:36.440 | - Jon Stewart did this well with "The Daily Show."

00:03:38.780 | I think that was during the 2016 election

00:03:41.020 | when everybody wanted him to stay on

00:03:42.940 | and he just walked away.

00:03:44.440 | Dave Chappelle, for different reasons, walked away.

00:03:48.240 | - Disappeared, came back.

00:03:49.640 | - Gave away so much money.

00:03:51.320 | Didn't care.

00:03:52.160 | And then came back and was doing standup in the park

00:03:55.440 | in the middle of nowhere.

00:03:57.500 | Genius.

00:03:58.460 | You have Habib, who undefeated,

00:04:01.160 | walks away at the very top of a sport.

00:04:03.720 | - Is he coming back?

00:04:04.720 | - No.

00:04:05.840 | - At least we don't know.

00:04:07.040 | - Yeah.

00:04:07.880 | Right, you don't know.

00:04:08.720 | I don't know if you know.

00:04:09.540 | - Bears everywhere are worried.

00:04:10.380 | (laughing)

00:04:12.120 | - Yeah, I think it's always a call.

00:04:15.620 | The last few years have been tremendous growth.

00:04:19.060 | We launched in January, 2021.

00:04:20.660 | And even this last year, 2024, has been huge growth

00:04:24.820 | in all sorts of ways.

00:04:26.840 | It's been wild.

00:04:28.060 | And we have some short-form content planned,

00:04:31.480 | 30-minute shorter episodes that really distill down

00:04:35.160 | the critical elements.

00:04:36.540 | We're also thinking about moving to other venues

00:04:39.940 | besides podcasting.

00:04:41.380 | So there's always the thought and the discussion.

00:04:43.420 | But when it comes to when to hang up your cleats,

00:04:45.820 | there just comes a natural time where you can do more

00:04:49.180 | to mentor the next generation coming in

00:04:51.700 | than focusing on self.

00:04:53.620 | And so there will come a time for that.

00:04:55.660 | And I think it's critical.

00:04:56.900 | I mean, again, I saw this in skateboarding.

00:04:58.500 | Danny and Collin and Danny's brother, Damon,

00:05:01.900 | started DC with Ken Block, the driver who unfortunately

00:05:05.220 | passed away a little while ago, rally car driver.

00:05:08.460 | And they eventually sold it, I think, to Quicksilver

00:05:11.180 | or something like that.

00:05:12.020 | But they're all phenomenal talents

00:05:14.800 | in their respective areas.

00:05:16.540 | But they brought in the next line of amazing riders,

00:05:21.420 | the Plan B thing, you know, Paul Rodriguez.

00:05:23.560 | For skateboarders, they know who this is.

00:05:24.740 | Now, in science, there are scientists

00:05:28.060 | like Feynman, for instance.

00:05:30.020 | I don't know if anyone can name one of his mentor offspring.

00:05:34.100 | So there are scientists who are phenomenal,

00:05:36.660 | like beyond world class, right?

00:05:38.660 | Multi-generational world class,

00:05:40.940 | who don't make good mentors.

00:05:42.820 | I'm not saying he wasn't a good mentor,

00:05:43.980 | but that's not what he's known for.

00:05:45.040 | And then there are scientists who are known

00:05:47.740 | for being excellent scientists and great mentors.

00:05:50.300 | And I think there's no higher celebration

00:05:54.340 | to be had at the end of one's career.

00:05:55.840 | If you can look back and like, hey,

00:05:56.940 | I put some really important knowledge into the world.

00:05:59.680 | People made use of that knowledge.

00:06:01.520 | And guess what?

00:06:02.500 | You spawned all these other scientific offspring

00:06:07.220 | or sport offspring or podcast offspring.

00:06:11.740 | I mean, in some ways we look to Rogan

00:06:13.740 | and to some of the other earlier podcasters,

00:06:16.420 | like they paved the way.

00:06:18.700 | Rhonda Patrick, first science podcast out there.

00:06:22.380 | So, you know, eventually the baton passes,

00:06:26.740 | but fortunately right now everybody's active

00:06:28.940 | and it feels really good.

00:06:31.500 | - Yeah, well, you're talking about the healthy way to do it,

00:06:33.220 | but there's also a different kind of way

00:06:37.860 | where you have somebody like Grisha Grigori Pearlman,

00:06:41.940 | the mathematician who refused to accept the Fields Medal.

00:06:44.820 | So, he's one of the greatest living mathematicians

00:06:46.780 | and he just walked away from mathematics

00:06:48.700 | and rejected the Fields Medal.

00:06:50.220 | - What did he do after he left mathematics?

00:06:52.620 | - Life, private, 100%.

00:06:55.580 | - Yeah, I respect that.

00:06:56.820 | - He's become essentially a recluse.

00:06:58.780 | These photos of him looking very broke,

00:07:02.020 | like he could use the money.

00:07:03.660 | He turned away the money, he turned away everything.

00:07:06.260 | You just have to listen to the inner voice,

00:07:10.740 | you have to listen to yourself

00:07:11.740 | and make the decisions that don't make any sense

00:07:13.860 | for the rest of the world and make sense to you.

00:07:16.380 | - I mean, Bob Dylan didn't show up

00:07:17.500 | to pick up his Nobel Peace Prize.

00:07:19.140 | That's punk.

00:07:19.980 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:07:21.180 | He probably grew in notoriety for that.

00:07:25.580 | Maybe he just doesn't like going to Sweden,

00:07:27.740 | but it seemed like it would be a fun trip.

00:07:29.460 | I think they do it in a nice time of year.

00:07:31.180 | But hey, that's his right, he earned that right.

00:07:33.620 | - I think the best artists aren't doing it for the prize.

00:07:36.220 | They aren't doing it for the fame or the money.

00:07:37.940 | They're doing it because they love the art.

00:07:39.740 | - Yeah, it's the Rick Rubin thing.

00:07:41.780 | You gotta verb it through, download your inner thing.

00:07:46.560 | I don't think we've talked about this,

00:07:47.620 | that this obsession that I have

00:07:50.220 | about how Rick has this way

00:07:54.580 | of being very, very still in his body,

00:07:57.180 | but keeping his mind very active.

00:08:00.920 | As a practice, I went and spent some time with him

00:08:03.620 | in Italy last June, and we would tread water

00:08:06.660 | in his pool in the morning and listen

00:08:08.460 | to a history of rock and roll and 100 songs.

00:08:11.700 | Amazing podcast, by the way.

00:08:14.180 | - It is. - Yeah.

00:08:15.380 | And then he would spend a fair amount of time

00:08:17.580 | during the day in this kind of meditative state

00:08:20.080 | where his mind is very active, body very still.

00:08:22.760 | And then Karl Deisseroth, when he came on my podcast,

00:08:25.540 | talked about how he forces himself to sit still

00:08:27.620 | and think in complete sentences late at night

00:08:29.660 | after his kids go to sleep.

00:08:31.620 | And there's a state of mind, rapid eye movement sleep,

00:08:36.320 | where your body is completely paralyzed

00:08:38.340 | and the mind is extremely active.

00:08:39.700 | And people credit rapid eye movement sleep

00:08:41.340 | with some of the more elaborate emotion-filled dreams

00:08:44.360 | and the source of many ideas.

00:08:47.140 | And there are other examples.

00:08:49.180 | Einstein, people described him as taking walks

00:08:53.860 | around the Princeton campus, then pausing,

00:08:56.600 | and would ask him what was going on.

00:08:58.980 | And the idea that his mind was continuing

00:09:00.780 | to churn forward at a high rate.

00:09:03.120 | So this is far from controlled studies,

00:09:08.500 | but we're talking about some incredible minds

00:09:10.860 | and creatives who have a practice of stilling the body

00:09:14.960 | while keeping the mind deliberately very active,

00:09:17.980 | very similar to rapid eye movement sleep.

00:09:19.480 | And then there are a lot of people who also report

00:09:22.380 | great ideas coming to them in the shower, while running.

00:09:25.860 | So it can be the opposite as well,

00:09:27.140 | where the body is very active and the mind

00:09:29.440 | is perhaps more on kind of like a default mode network,

00:09:34.060 | not really focusing on any one specific thing.

00:09:36.300 | - You know, interesting, there's a bunch of physicists

00:09:38.820 | and mathematicians I've talked to.

00:09:40.700 | They talk about sleep deprivation

00:09:44.060 | and going crazy hours through the night,

00:09:46.180 | obsessively pursuing a thing.

00:09:48.460 | And then the solution to the problem comes

00:09:50.740 | when they finally get rest.

00:09:52.660 | - Right, and we know, we just did this six episode

00:09:56.180 | special series on sleep with Matt Walker.

00:09:59.740 | We know that when you deprive yourself of sleep

00:10:04.300 | and then you get sleep, you get a rebound

00:10:06.540 | in rapid eye movement sleep, you get a higher percentage

00:10:08.540 | of rapid eye movement sleep.

00:10:10.340 | And Matt talks about this in the podcast

00:10:12.420 | and he did an episode on sleep and creativity,

00:10:16.380 | sleep and memory, and rapid eye movement sleep

00:10:18.420 | comes up multiple times in that series.

00:10:21.020 | There's also some very interesting stuff

00:10:23.500 | about cannabis withdrawal and rapid eye movement sleep.

00:10:26.300 | People are coming off cannabis,

00:10:27.500 | often will suffer from insomnia,

00:10:30.580 | but when they finally do start sleeping,

00:10:32.160 | they like dream like crazy.

00:10:34.300 | Cannabis is a very controversial topic right now.

00:10:36.460 | - Oh yeah, I saw that, what happened?

00:10:38.020 | There's a bunch of drama around episode

00:10:40.860 | you did on cannabis.

00:10:42.260 | - Yeah, we did an episode about cannabis,

00:10:44.820 | talked about the health benefits

00:10:46.860 | and the potential risks, right?

00:10:48.500 | It's neither here nor there.

00:10:51.140 | Depends on the person, depends on the age,

00:10:52.860 | depends on genetic background, a number of other things.

00:10:55.920 | We published that episode well over a year ago

00:11:01.340 | and it had no issues online, so to speak.

00:11:04.980 | And then a clip of it was put to X

00:11:07.640 | where the real action occurs, as you know,

00:11:11.600 | your favorite spot.

00:11:12.860 | Yeah, the four ounce gloves

00:11:16.180 | as opposed to the 16 ounce gloves,

00:11:18.620 | that is X versus Instagram or YouTube.

00:11:22.900 | There was kind of an immediate dog pile

00:11:26.780 | from a few people in the cannabis research field.

00:11:30.580 | - The PhDs and MDs, yeah.

00:11:32.380 | - There were people on our side,

00:11:33.800 | there were people not on our side.

00:11:35.000 | I mean, the statement that got things riled up the most

00:11:40.000 | was this notion that for certain individuals,

00:11:45.140 | there's a high potential for inducing psychosis

00:11:49.980 | with high THC-containing cannabis.

00:11:52.980 | For certain individuals, not all.

00:11:54.700 | That sparked some issues.

00:11:57.820 | There was really a split.

00:12:00.820 | You know, you see this in different fields.

00:12:03.380 | There was one person in particular

00:12:05.940 | who came out swinging with language

00:12:08.600 | that in my opinion is not like of the sort

00:12:11.020 | that you would use at a university venue,

00:12:14.460 | especially among colleagues, but that's fine.

00:12:17.100 | You know, we're all grownups.

00:12:18.100 | - Well, for me, from my perspective,

00:12:19.700 | it was strangely rude, and it had an air of like elitism

00:12:24.700 | that to me was at the source of the problem during COVID

00:12:32.100 | that led to the distrust of science

00:12:36.860 | and the popularization of disrespecting science

00:12:40.220 | because so many scientists spoke with an arrogance

00:12:42.500 | and a douchebaggery that I wish we would have

00:12:45.500 | a little bit less of.

00:12:47.060 | - Yeah, it's tough because most academics

00:12:49.860 | don't understand that people outside the university system

00:12:52.760 | they're not familiar with the inner workings of science

00:12:59.220 | and the culture, and so you have to be very careful

00:13:03.700 | how you present when you're a university professor.

00:13:07.260 | And when, yeah, so he came out swinging

00:13:09.480 | in some four-letter word-type language,

00:13:12.300 | and he was obviously upset about it,

00:13:13.500 | so I simply said what I would say anywhere,

00:13:15.700 | which was, hey, come on the podcast, let's chat.

00:13:18.700 | And why don't you give your, tell me where I'm wrong,

00:13:21.700 | and let's discuss, and fortunately, he agreed.

00:13:26.700 | And initially, he said, well, no, how can I be sure

00:13:29.260 | you're not gonna misrepresent me?

00:13:30.740 | And so I said, we got on a DM, then an email,

00:13:35.240 | then eventually a phone call, and just said, hey, listen,

00:13:36.780 | like, you're welcome to record the whole conversation.

00:13:39.060 | We've never done a gotcha on my podcast,

00:13:41.100 | and let's just get to the heart of the matter.

00:13:42.500 | I think this little controversy is perfect kindling

00:13:47.380 | for a really great discussion.

00:13:49.540 | And he had some other conditions that we worked out,

00:13:52.940 | and I felt like, cool, like he's really interested.

00:13:56.460 | You get a very different person on the phone

00:13:58.140 | than you do on Twitter.

00:13:59.540 | I will say he's been very collegial,

00:14:00.860 | and that conversation is on the schedule.

00:14:03.240 | I said, we'll fly you out, we'll put you up.

00:14:04.980 | He said, no, he wants to fly himself.

00:14:06.240 | He really wants to make sure that there's kind of a space

00:14:08.940 | between, I think some of the perception

00:14:12.100 | of science and health podcasts in the academic community

00:14:15.020 | is that it's all designed to sell something.

00:14:17.380 | No, we run ads so it can be free to everyone else.

00:14:20.100 | But I think, look, in the end, he agreed,

00:14:23.420 | and I'm excited for the conversation.

00:14:25.340 | It was interesting because in the wake of that

00:14:28.980 | little exchange, there's been a bunch of press

00:14:33.260 | from traditional press about cannabis

00:14:36.100 | has now surpassed alcohol in many cultures

00:14:39.580 | as within the United States as, when I say cultures,

00:14:43.100 | I mean demographics, the United States

00:14:46.020 | as the drug of choice.

00:14:47.640 | There have been people highlighting the issues

00:14:50.100 | of potential psychosis and high THC containing.

00:14:53.700 | And so it's kind of interesting to see

00:14:55.740 | how traditional media is sort of on board certain elements

00:14:58.420 | that I put forward, and I think there's some controversy

00:15:01.600 | as to whether or not the different strains,

00:15:03.420 | the indicas and sativas are biologically different, et cetera.

00:15:07.020 | So we'll get down into the weeds, pun intended,

00:15:09.980 | during that one, and I'm excited.

00:15:11.340 | It's the first time that we've responded

00:15:14.160 | to a direct criticism online about scientific content

00:15:19.160 | in a way that really promoted like,

00:15:20.820 | oh, here, the idea of inviting a particular guest.

00:15:23.580 | And so it's great, let's get a guest

00:15:24.840 | who is an expert in cannabis.

00:15:26.660 | I believe, I could be wrong about this,

00:15:28.420 | that he's a behavioral neuroscientist.

00:15:30.580 | It's slightly different training.

00:15:31.820 | But look, he seems highly credentialed, it'll be fun.

00:15:34.320 | And we, you know, we welcome that kind of exchange.

00:15:39.020 | - I deeply- - And I'm not being diplomatic.

00:15:41.060 | I'm just saying like, it's cool.

00:15:42.020 | Like he's coming on, you know,

00:15:43.380 | and he was friendly on the phone, right?

00:15:45.020 | Like he literally came out online

00:15:46.420 | and was like basically like, kind of like F you,

00:15:49.340 | like F this and F you.

00:15:50.500 | But you get someone on the phone and it's like,

00:15:51.900 | hey, how's it going?

00:15:52.740 | And they're like, oh yeah, well, you know,

00:15:54.820 | there was an immediate apology of like, hey, listen,

00:15:57.140 | I came out, normally I'm like, not like that, but online,

00:16:00.260 | you know, you get a different-

00:16:01.100 | - Oh yeah, okay, listen.

00:16:02.260 | - So it's a little bit like jujitsu, right?

00:16:04.460 | People say all sorts of things, I guess,

00:16:05.860 | but if you're like, all right, well, let's go,

00:16:08.900 | then it's probably a different story, you know?

00:16:10.700 | - It's not like jujitsu 'cause in jujitsu,

00:16:12.420 | people don't talk shit 'cause they know

00:16:14.020 | what the consequences are.

00:16:15.420 | Let me just say, on mic and off mic,

00:16:17.460 | you have been very respectful towards this person.

00:16:20.140 | And I look up to you and respect you

00:16:23.580 | and admire the fact that you have been.

00:16:25.660 | That said, to me, that guy was being a dick.

00:16:28.580 | And when you graciously, politely,

00:16:31.020 | invited him on the podcast,

00:16:32.260 | he was still talking down to you the whole time.

00:16:34.820 | So I really admire and look forward

00:16:36.500 | to listening to you talk to him,

00:16:38.380 | but I hope others don't do that.

00:16:41.740 | Like, you are a positive, humble voice,

00:16:46.540 | exploring all the interesting aspects of science.

00:16:49.340 | Like, you want to learn.

00:16:51.660 | If you've got anything wrong, you wanna learn about it.

00:16:55.740 | The way he was being a dick, I was just hurt a little bit,

00:17:00.180 | not because of him, but 'cause there's some people

00:17:02.660 | I really, really admire, brilliant scientists,

00:17:05.420 | that are not their best selves on Twitter, on X.

00:17:10.340 | - Definitely.

00:17:11.180 | - I don't understand what happens to their brain.

00:17:13.340 | - Well, they regress.

00:17:14.700 | They regress, and they also are protected, you know?

00:17:18.420 | When you remove the, I mean, no scientific argument

00:17:22.220 | should ever come to physical blows, right?

00:17:24.700 | But when you remove the real-world thing

00:17:26.900 | of being right in front of somebody,

00:17:29.380 | people will throw all sorts of stones at a distance,

00:17:32.700 | you know, and over a wall,

00:17:34.180 | and they've got their wife or their husband

00:17:36.580 | or their boyfriend or their dog or their cat

00:17:38.140 | to go cuddle with them afterwards.

00:17:39.840 | But you get in a room, and it's like, you know,

00:17:44.220 | confrontational people in real life are pretty rare,

00:17:49.060 | but hopefully, if they do it,

00:17:50.660 | they're, like, willing to back it up

00:17:52.540 | with knowledge in this case, right?

00:17:53.940 | We're not talking about physical altercation.

00:17:55.380 | Yeah, he kept coming, and he kept putting on conditions.

00:17:58.360 | How do I know you want this?

00:17:59.340 | And I was like, well, you can record the conversation.

00:18:00.720 | How do I know you want that?

00:18:01.560 | Listen, we'll pay for you to come out.

00:18:02.660 | How do you know?

00:18:03.500 | And eventually, he just kind of relented,

00:18:06.080 | and to his credit, you know, he's agreed to come on.

00:18:09.980 | I mean, he still has to show up,

00:18:11.340 | but once he does, you know, we'll treat him right

00:18:13.860 | like we would any other guest.

00:18:15.100 | - Yeah, you treat people really well,

00:18:16.500 | and I just hope that people are a little bit nicer

00:18:19.420 | on the internet.

00:18:20.260 | - Yeah, well, you know, X is an interesting one

00:18:22.100 | because it thickens your skin, you know,

00:18:25.740 | just to go on there.

00:18:26.800 | I mean, you have to be ready to deal with--

00:18:29.140 | - Sure, but I can still criticize people

00:18:30.900 | for being douchebags because, like,

00:18:33.980 | that's still not good, inspiring behavior,

00:18:36.460 | like, especially for scientists,

00:18:38.780 | that should be sort of symbols of scientific thinking,

00:18:43.360 | which requires intellectual humility.

00:18:45.920 | Humility is a big part of that,

00:18:48.480 | and Twitter is a good place to illustrate that.

00:18:51.400 | - Yeah, years ago, I used to,

00:18:53.620 | I was a student in TA, then instructor,

00:18:56.860 | and then directed a Cold Spring Harbor course

00:18:59.700 | on visual neuroscience.

00:19:00.740 | These are summer courses that explore different topics,

00:19:04.020 | and at night, we would host what we hoped were battles

00:19:08.180 | in front of the students where you'd get two people on a,

00:19:11.100 | you know, would it be neural prosthetics

00:19:13.140 | or molecular tools that would first, you know,

00:19:16.580 | restore vision to the blind kind of arguments.

00:19:18.460 | You know, kind of like, it's kind of a silly argument

00:19:20.020 | 'cause it's gonna be a combination of both, right?

00:19:22.100 | But you'd get these great arguments,

00:19:25.020 | but the arguments were always couched in data,

00:19:28.800 | and occasionally, you'd get somebody would go like,

00:19:31.300 | or would curse or something,

00:19:32.300 | but it was the rare, very well-placed, you know, insult.

00:19:37.300 | It wasn't, you know, coming out swinging.

00:19:40.180 | I think, ultimately, you know,

00:19:41.420 | Twitter's a record of people's behavior,

00:19:43.320 | the internet is a record of people's behavior,

00:19:45.500 | and here, I'm not talking about news reports

00:19:47.800 | about people's behavior.

00:19:48.640 | I'm talking about how people show up online

00:19:51.860 | is really important.

00:19:53.700 | You've always carried yourself

00:19:55.300 | with a ton of composure and respect,

00:19:56.900 | and, you know, you just,

00:19:58.700 | you would hope that people would grow from that example.

00:20:00.820 | Well, I'll tell you that the podcasters that I'm scouting,

00:20:03.500 | it's their energy, but it's also how they treat other people,

00:20:07.020 | how they respond to comments,

00:20:08.320 | and, you know, we're blessed

00:20:10.380 | to have pretty significant reach.

00:20:12.380 | When we put out a podcast like someone else's podcast,

00:20:15.100 | it goes far and wide.

00:20:16.180 | So, like a skateboard team, like a laboratory

00:20:19.560 | where you're selecting people to be in your lab,

00:20:22.240 | you want to pick people that you would enjoy working with

00:20:24.920 | and that are collegial.

00:20:26.020 | Etiquette is lacking nowadays,

00:20:31.320 | but you're in the suit and tie, you're bringing it back.

00:20:33.760 | - Bringing it back.

00:20:35.560 | You said that your conversation with James Hollis,

00:20:38.440 | a Jungian psychoanalyst, had a big impact on you.

00:20:41.120 | What do you mean?

00:20:42.560 | - James Hollis is a 84-year-old Jungian psychoanalyst

00:20:46.920 | who's written 17 books, including "Under Saturn's Shadow,"

00:20:50.540 | which is on the healing and trauma of men,

00:20:52.040 | the Eden Project, excuse me,

00:20:53.880 | which is about relationships and creating a life.

00:20:57.360 | I discovered James Hollis in an online lecture

00:20:59.940 | that was recorded, I think, in San Diego.

00:21:01.560 | It's on YouTube.

00:21:02.400 | The audio is terrible, called "Creating a Life."

00:21:05.340 | And this was somewhere in the 2011 to 2015 span,

00:21:09.140 | I can't remember, and I was on my way to Europe,

00:21:11.180 | and I called my girlfriend at the time.

00:21:13.020 | I was like, I just found the most incredible lecture

00:21:14.800 | I've ever heard.

00:21:16.300 | And he talks about the shadow.

00:21:20.500 | He talks about your developmental upbringing

00:21:24.780 | and how you either align with or go 180 degrees

00:21:29.060 | off your parents' tendencies and values in certain areas.

00:21:33.320 | He talked about the specific questions to ask of oneself

00:21:37.060 | at different stages of life, to live a full life.

00:21:38.860 | So it's always been a dream of mine to meet him

00:21:41.060 | and to record a podcast.

00:21:42.980 | And he wasn't able to travel,

00:21:45.200 | so our team went out to D.C. and sat down with him.

00:21:47.900 | We rarely do that nowadays.

00:21:49.260 | People come to our studio.

00:21:51.000 | And he came in, he had some surgeries recently,

00:21:54.460 | and he kinda came in with some assistance from a cane

00:21:58.660 | and then sat down and just blew my mind.

00:22:03.460 | From start to finish, he didn't miss a syllable.

00:22:07.180 | And every sentence that he spoke was a quotable sentence

00:22:12.180 | with real potency and actionable items.

00:22:16.460 | I think one of the things that was most striking to me

00:22:20.300 | was how he said when we take ourselves out of stimulus

00:22:23.660 | and response and we just force ourselves

00:22:27.220 | to spend some time in the quiet of our thoughts

00:22:31.060 | while walking or while seated or while lying down.

00:22:34.340 | Doesn't have to be meditation, but it could be.

00:22:37.100 | That we access our unconscious mind

00:22:40.340 | in ways that reveals to us who we really are

00:22:42.940 | and what we really want.

00:22:43.940 | And that if we do that practice repeatedly,

00:22:46.220 | 10 minutes a day here, 15 minutes a day there,

00:22:49.180 | that we start to really touch into our unique gifts

00:22:53.460 | and the things that make us each us

00:22:56.040 | and the directions we need to take.

00:22:58.340 | But that so often we just stay in stimulus response.

00:23:01.400 | We just do, do, do, do, do, which is great.

00:23:03.920 | We have to be productive.

00:23:06.060 | But we miss those important messages.

00:23:09.740 | And interestingly, he also put forward this idea

00:23:14.180 | of what is this, like get up, shut up, suit up?

00:23:16.580 | Yeah, something like that.

00:23:17.660 | Like get out of bed, suit up and shut up and get to work.

00:23:21.460 | He also has that in him, kind of a Goggins type mindset.

00:23:25.340 | - So be able to turn off all this self-reflection

00:23:28.140 | and self-analysis and just get shit done.

00:23:29.980 | - Get shit done, but then also take dedicated time

00:23:32.900 | and stop and just let stuff geyser to the surface

00:23:35.600 | from the unconscious mind.

00:23:37.020 | And he quotes Shakespeare and he quotes Jung

00:23:39.100 | and he quotes everybody through history

00:23:41.980 | with incredible accuracy

00:23:43.820 | and in exactly the way needed to drive home a point.

00:23:48.820 | But that conversation to me was one

00:23:51.660 | that I really felt like, okay,

00:23:54.060 | if I don't wake up tomorrow for whatever reason,

00:23:57.180 | that one's in the can and I feel really great about it.

00:24:00.260 | To me, it's the most important guest recording

00:24:03.740 | we've ever done.

00:24:04.820 | In particular, because he has wisdom.

00:24:09.820 | And while I hope he lives to be 204,

00:24:13.540 | chances are he's got another, what, 20, 30 years with us,

00:24:19.260 | hopefully more.

00:24:21.100 | But I really, really wanted to capture that information

00:24:24.900 | and get it out there.

00:24:25.720 | So I'm very, very proud of that one.

00:24:27.520 | And he's the kind of guy that anyone listens to him,

00:24:31.260 | young, old, male, female, whatever,

00:24:33.240 | and you're gonna get something of value.

00:24:35.060 | - What do you think about this idea of the shadow?

00:24:39.180 | That the good and the bad that we repress,

00:24:44.060 | that hides from plain sight

00:24:45.620 | when we analyze ourselves that's there.

00:24:47.980 | You think there's like a ocean

00:24:49.660 | that we don't have direct access to?

00:24:52.340 | - Yes.

00:24:53.620 | Yeah, Jung said it.

00:24:54.900 | We have all things inside of us and we do.

00:24:56.820 | And some people are more in touch with those than others

00:24:59.460 | and some people it's repressed.

00:25:01.500 | I mean, does that mean that we could all be,

00:25:04.080 | you know, horrible people or marvelous people,

00:25:07.880 | benevolent people?

00:25:09.080 | Perhaps.

00:25:09.920 | I think that thankfully more often than not,

00:25:14.440 | people lean away from the like violent

00:25:16.920 | and harmful parts of their shadow.

00:25:19.520 | But I think spending time thinking about,

00:25:24.240 | you know, one's shadow,

00:25:28.040 | shadows is super important.

00:25:30.120 | How else are we going to grow?

00:25:32.500 | Otherwise, you know,

00:25:33.780 | we have these unconscious blind spots of denial

00:25:36.500 | or repression or whatever, you know,

00:25:39.900 | the psychiatrists tell us.

00:25:41.780 | But it clearly exists within all of us.

00:25:43.580 | I mean, we have neural circuits for rage.

00:25:45.540 | We all do.

00:25:46.360 | We have neural circuits for altruism.

00:25:49.780 | And no one's born without these things.

00:25:52.420 | And some people they're atrophied

00:25:53.620 | and some people they're hypertrophied.

00:25:55.140 | But looking inward and recognizing what's there

00:25:59.340 | is key.

00:26:01.320 | - Or positive things like creativity.

00:26:03.160 | Maybe that's what Rick Rubin is accessing

00:26:04.980 | when he goes silent.

00:26:06.520 | Silent body, active mind.

00:26:08.340 | That's interesting.

00:26:10.080 | What is it for you?

00:26:11.940 | What place do you go to that generates ideas,

00:26:15.680 | that helps you generate ideas?

00:26:17.060 | - I have a lot of new practices around this.

00:26:19.480 | I mean, I'm always exploring for protocols.

00:26:21.960 | I have to.

00:26:23.080 | That's like in my nature.

00:26:24.360 | When I went and spent time with Rick,

00:26:27.520 | I tried to adopt his practice of staying very still

00:26:30.560 | and just letting stuff come to the surface

00:26:32.700 | or the Dicerothian way of formulating complete sentences

00:26:37.700 | while being still in the body.

00:26:39.980 | What I have found works better

00:26:42.420 | is what my good friend Tim Armstrong does to write music.

00:26:46.820 | He writes music every day.

00:26:48.160 | He's a music producer.

00:26:49.140 | He's obviously a singer, guitar player for Rancid.

00:26:51.580 | And he's helped dozens and dozens and dozens

00:26:55.420 | of female pop artists and punk rock artists

00:26:58.920 | write great songs.

00:27:01.000 | And many of the famous songs that you've heard

00:27:04.520 | from other artists, Tim helped them write.

00:27:07.040 | Tim wakes up sometimes in the middle of the night,

00:27:11.140 | and what he does is he'll start drawing or painting.

00:27:14.240 | So what he's done, and Joni Mitchell talks about this too,

00:27:17.640 | you find some creative outlet

00:27:19.200 | that's like 15 degrees off center

00:27:23.180 | from your main creative outlet, and you do that thing.

00:27:27.280 | So for me, that's drawing.

00:27:28.380 | I like doing anatomical drawings,

00:27:30.600 | neuroscience-based drawing, drawing neurons,

00:27:32.360 | that kind of thing.

00:27:33.480 | And if I do that for a little while,

00:27:35.740 | my mind starts churning on the nervous system and biology,

00:27:40.080 | and then I come up with areas

00:27:43.080 | I'd like to explore for the podcast,

00:27:45.080 | ways I'd like to address certain topics.

00:27:47.680 | Right now, I'm very interested in autonomic control.

00:27:49.600 | A beautiful paper came out

00:27:50.820 | that shows that anyone can learn

00:27:51.980 | to control their pupil sizes without changing luminance

00:27:55.940 | through a biofeedback mechanism,

00:27:57.540 | and that gives them control

00:28:00.660 | over their so-called automatic autonomic nervous system.

00:28:03.820 | And I've been looking at what the circuitry is,

00:28:05.620 | and it's beautiful, so I'll draw the circuitry

00:28:09.320 | that we know underlies autonomic function.

00:28:11.340 | And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking,

00:28:12.420 | oh, what about autonomic control

00:28:14.020 | and those people that supposedly

00:28:15.220 | can control their pupil size?

00:28:16.340 | Then you go in, and there's a paper

00:28:17.340 | published in Nature Press, one of the nature journals,

00:28:19.860 | and there's a recent paper on this.

00:28:21.060 | Like, oh, cool, and then we talk about this,

00:28:22.600 | and then how could this be put into a kind of a post,

00:28:25.740 | or how could this, you know,

00:28:27.040 | so doing things that are about 15 degrees off-center

00:28:29.460 | from your main thing is a great way to access,

00:28:31.680 | I believe, the circuits for, in Tim's case,

00:28:34.200 | painting goes to songwriting.

00:28:35.840 | I think for Joni Mitchell, that was also the case, right?

00:28:40.620 | I think it was drawing and painting

00:28:42.040 | to singing and songwriting.

00:28:44.000 | For Rick, I don't know what it is.

00:28:45.080 | Maybe it's listening to podcasts.

00:28:47.320 | I don't know, that's his business.

00:28:49.120 | Do you have anything that you like to focus on

00:28:52.020 | that allows you then an easier transition

00:28:54.420 | into your main creative work?

00:28:56.020 | - No, I really like to focus on emptiness and silence,

00:28:59.440 | so I pick the dragon I have to slay,

00:29:02.500 | so whatever the problem I have to work on,

00:29:05.160 | and I just sit there and stare at it.

00:29:08.760 | I love how fucking linear you are.

00:29:10.680 | And if there's no, if you're tired, I'll just sit.

00:29:15.500 | I believe in the power of just waiting,

00:29:18.540 | and usually I'll stop being tired,

00:29:22.000 | or energy rises from somewhere,

00:29:24.520 | or an idea pops from somewhere,

00:29:25.880 | but there needs to be a silence and an emptiness.

00:29:28.420 | It's an empty room, just me and the dragon,

00:29:30.320 | and we wait, that's it.

00:29:32.920 | Like if it's, usually with programming,

00:29:34.520 | you're thinking about a particular design,

00:29:36.040 | like how do I design this thing to solve this problem?

00:29:41.040 | - Any cognitive enhancers?

00:29:42.600 | I've got quite the gallery in front of me.

00:29:44.440 | - Oh, that's right, yeah.

00:29:45.560 | - Should we walk through this?

00:29:47.120 | This is not a sales thing, it's just,

00:29:49.200 | I tend to do this, bounce back and forth.

00:29:52.400 | Your refrigerator just happened

00:29:53.740 | to have a lot of different choices, so water.

00:29:55.880 | - This is all of my refrigerator.

00:29:57.360 | - I know, right?

00:29:58.200 | There's no food in there.

00:29:59.120 | There's water, there's Element, which they now have canned.

00:30:03.640 | And yes, they're a podcast sponsor for both of us,

00:30:05.480 | but that's not why I cracked one of these open.

00:30:06.840 | I like them, provided they're cold.

00:30:08.560 | - And that's, by the way,

00:30:09.400 | my least favorite flavor, as I was saying.

00:30:11.520 | That's the reason it's still left in the fridge.

00:30:13.700 | - The cherry one is really good.

00:30:15.360 | - The black cherry, there's an orange one.

00:30:18.420 | - I pushed the sled this morning

00:30:20.560 | and pulled the sled from my workout at the gym,

00:30:22.600 | and it was hot today here in Austin, so some salt is good.

00:30:26.840 | And then, Matina Yerba Mate, zero sugar.

00:30:29.680 | Full confession, I helped develop this.

00:30:31.480 | I'm a partial owner, but I love Yerba Mate.

00:30:33.680 | Half-Argentine, been drinking mate since I was a little kid.

00:30:36.660 | There's actually a photo somewhere on the internet

00:30:38.200 | when I'm like three, sitting on my grandfather's lap,

00:30:40.680 | sipping mate out the gourd.

00:30:42.480 | And then this, you might find interesting.

00:30:44.120 | This is just a little bit of coffee

00:30:46.160 | with a scoop of, Brian Johnson gave me cocoa,

00:30:50.960 | just like pure unsweetened cocoa.

00:30:52.800 | So I put that in chocolate, and I like it.

00:30:54.560 | - Just for the taste.

00:30:55.440 | - Well, it actually nukes my appetite,

00:30:56.960 | and since we're not going out to dinner tonight until later,

00:30:59.340 | I figure that's good.

00:31:01.360 | Yeah, Brian's an interesting one, right?

00:31:02.640 | He's really pushing this thing.

00:31:04.360 | - The optimization of everything.

00:31:06.000 | - Although he just hurt his ankle.

00:31:07.400 | He posted a photo that he hurt his ankle,

00:31:08.740 | so now he's injecting BPC, Body Protection Compound 157,

00:31:12.240 | which many, many people are taking, by the way.

00:31:14.200 | I did an episode on peptides.

00:31:16.480 | I should just say, you know, BPC 157,

00:31:18.720 | one of the known effects in animal models

00:31:21.240 | is angiogenesis, like development of new vasculature,

00:31:24.960 | which can be great in some context,

00:31:27.720 | but also if you have a tumor,

00:31:28.960 | you don't really wanna vascularize that tumor anymore.

00:31:31.560 | So I worry about people taking BPC 157 continually,

00:31:34.520 | and there's very little human data.

00:31:39.200 | I think there's like one study, and it's a lousy one.

00:31:41.440 | It's a lot of animal data.

00:31:43.200 | Some of the peptides are interesting, however.

00:31:46.280 | There's one that I've experimented with a little bit

00:31:48.160 | called pinelan, which I find,

00:31:51.640 | even if I've just taken it twice a week before sleep,

00:31:54.640 | then it seems to do something

00:31:56.960 | to the circadian timekeeping mechanism,

00:31:59.800 | because then on other days, when I don't take it,

00:32:02.640 | I get unbelievably tired at that time

00:32:05.320 | that normally I would do the injection.

00:32:07.160 | These are things that I'll experiment with

00:32:08.320 | for a couple weeks and then typically stop,

00:32:10.160 | maybe try something else,

00:32:11.240 | but I stay out of things that really stimulate

00:32:14.960 | any of the major hormone pathways when it comes to peptides.

00:32:18.720 | - That's actually a really good question

00:32:19.920 | of how do you experiment?

00:32:22.000 | Like, how long do you try a thing

00:32:23.240 | to figure out if it works for you?

00:32:24.840 | - Well, I'm very sensitive to these things,

00:32:27.040 | and I have been doing a lot of things for a long time,

00:32:29.360 | so if I add something in, it's always one thing at a time,

00:32:31.760 | and I notice right away if it does not make me feel good.

00:32:34.720 | Like, there's a lot of excitement

00:32:35.840 | about some of the so-called growth hormone secretagogues,

00:32:39.680 | iopramerolin, testomerolin, seromerolin.

00:32:42.800 | I've experimented a little bit with those in the past,

00:32:44.960 | and they've nuked my rapid eye movement sleep,

00:32:48.240 | but given me a lot of deep sleep,

00:32:49.400 | which doesn't feel good to me, but other people like them.

00:32:52.920 | I also just generally try and avoid taking peptides

00:32:57.920 | that tap into these hormone pathways,

00:32:59.520 | because you can run into all sorts of issues,

00:33:01.160 | but some people take them safely.

00:33:02.860 | But usually after about four or five days,

00:33:04.600 | I know if I like something or I don't, and then I move on.

00:33:07.420 | But I am not super adventurous with these things.

00:33:10.300 | I know people that will take cocktails of peptides

00:33:12.380 | with multiple things, they'll try anything.

00:33:15.040 | That's not me, and I do blood work.

00:33:17.340 | But also, I'm mainly reading papers and podcasting,

00:33:23.240 | and I'm teaching a course next spring at Stanford.

00:33:27.500 | I'm gonna do a big undergraduate course,

00:33:29.860 | so I'm trying to develop that course and things like that.

00:33:33.020 | So I don't need to lift more weight

00:33:36.620 | or run further than I already do,

00:33:38.460 | which is not that much weight or far as it is.

00:33:40.780 | - All right, you're not going to the Olympics.

00:33:42.100 | You're not trying to truly maximize

00:33:44.220 | some aspect of your performance.

00:33:45.420 | - No, and I'm not trying to get down below whatever,

00:33:48.900 | 7% body fat or something.

00:33:50.260 | I don't have those kinds of goals.

00:33:52.420 | So hydration, electrolytes, caffeine in the form of mate,

00:33:55.940 | and then this coffee thing.

00:33:57.260 | And then here's one that I think I brought out

00:33:59.660 | for discussion, this is a piece of Nicorette.

00:34:01.920 | They're not a sponsor.

00:34:04.380 | Nicotine is an interesting compound.

00:34:06.860 | It will raise blood pressure,

00:34:08.820 | and it is probably not safe for everybody.

00:34:12.620 | But nicotine is gaining in popularity like crazy,

00:34:16.020 | mainly these pouches that people put in the lip.

00:34:19.060 | We're not talking about smoking,

00:34:21.300 | vaping, dipping, or snuffing.

00:34:23.420 | You know, my interest in nicotine started,

00:34:26.320 | this was in 2010, I was visiting Columbia Medical School,

00:34:29.920 | and I was in the office of the great neurobiologist,

00:34:33.220 | Richard Axel, won the Nobel Prize,

00:34:35.660 | co-recipient with Linda Buck

00:34:36.940 | for the discovery of the molecular basis of olfaction.

00:34:40.980 | Brilliant guy.

00:34:41.820 | He's probably in his late 70s now, probably, yeah.

00:34:45.200 | And he kept popping Nicorette in his mouth.

00:34:48.100 | And I was like, "What's this about?"

00:34:49.060 | And he said, "Oh, well, this was just anecdote, right?"

00:34:51.380 | But he said this.

00:34:52.900 | He said, "Oh, well, you know,

00:34:53.740 | "it protects against Parkinson's and Alzheimer's."

00:34:55.860 | I said, "It does?"

00:34:56.680 | And he goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

00:34:57.520 | I don't know if he was kidding or not.

00:34:58.560 | He's known for making jokes.

00:34:59.700 | And then he said that when he used to smoke,

00:35:02.340 | it really helped his focus and creativity,

00:35:04.040 | but then he quit smoking 'cause he didn't want lung cancer.

00:35:06.260 | And he found that he couldn't focus as well,

00:35:07.760 | so he would choose Nicorette.

00:35:09.340 | So occasionally, like right now,

00:35:12.020 | I do a half a piece, but I'm not Russian.

00:35:15.220 | So I'm a little, you know.

00:35:16.780 | You have to just pop the whole thing in your mouth.

00:35:18.880 | So I'll do a couple milligrams every now and again.

00:35:22.300 | And it definitely sharpens the mind,

00:35:24.000 | on an empty stomach in particular, but you fast all day.

00:35:26.380 | You're still doing one meal a day.

00:35:27.540 | - One meal a day.

00:35:28.380 | - Yeah.

00:35:29.220 | - Yeah, I did a nicotine pouch with Rogan at dinner.

00:35:32.220 | And that got high.

00:35:33.580 | - Yeah, that's a lot.

00:35:35.320 | That's like usually six or eight milligrams.

00:35:37.800 | I know people that get a canister of Zyn, take one a day.

00:35:42.220 | Pretty soon, they're taking a canister a day.

00:35:44.340 | So you have to be very careful.

00:35:45.460 | I will only allow myself two pieces

00:35:48.220 | of Nicorette total per week.

00:35:51.380 | And you will notice that, you know,

00:35:53.620 | in the day after you use it, you know,

00:35:55.620 | sometimes your throat will feel a little bit like,

00:35:57.860 | like a little spasmy,

00:35:58.760 | like you might want to cough once or twice.

00:36:00.900 | And so, you know, if you're a singer or you're a podcaster

00:36:04.060 | or something, you have to do long podcasts,

00:36:05.860 | you want to just be mindful of it.

00:36:06.820 | But yeah, you're supposed to kind of like

00:36:08.060 | keep it in your cheek and, you know, here we go.

00:36:10.340 | - But it did make me intensely focused.

00:36:14.140 | In a way, that was a little bit scary 'cause--

00:36:16.740 | - The nucleus basalis is in the, you know,

00:36:19.900 | in basal forebrain, nucleus has cholinergic neurons

00:36:23.500 | that radiate out axons, little wires

00:36:27.180 | that release acetylcholine into the neocortex and elsewhere.

00:36:30.820 | And when you focus on one particular topic matter

00:36:34.220 | or one particular area of your visual field

00:36:36.780 | or listening to something and focusing visually,

00:36:39.500 | we know that there's an elaboration

00:36:41.580 | of the amount of acetylcholine released there

00:36:43.620 | and it binds to nicotinic acetylcholine receptor sites there.

00:36:46.940 | So it's a kind of an attentional modulation

00:36:50.100 | by acetylcholine.

00:36:51.660 | So you're getting with nicotine,

00:36:53.260 | you're getting a exogenous

00:36:55.260 | or artificial heightening of that circuitry.

00:36:58.500 | - And the time I had Tucker Carlson on the podcast,

00:37:00.980 | he told me that apparently it helps him,

00:37:03.620 | as he said publicly, keep his love life vibrant.

00:37:08.620 | - Really?

00:37:11.060 | It causes visual constrictions?

00:37:12.220 | - Well, he literally said it makes his dick very hard.

00:37:14.580 | He said that publicly also.

00:37:16.060 | - Okay, well, as little as I wanna think

00:37:17.820 | about Tucker Carlson's sex life, no disrespect.

00:37:23.840 | The major effect of nicotine on the vasculature,

00:37:28.480 | my understanding is that it causes vasoconstriction,

00:37:31.120 | not vasodilation.

00:37:32.880 | Drugs like Cialis, Tadalafil, Viagra, et cetera,

00:37:36.720 | vasodilators, they allow more blood flow.

00:37:39.160 | Nicotine does the opposite, less blood flow to the periphery,

00:37:44.040 | but provided dosages are kept low.

00:37:46.400 | And I don't recommend people use it frequently or at all.

00:37:50.140 | And I don't recommend young people use it,

00:37:52.240 | you know, 25 and younger.

00:37:56.240 | Brain's very plastic at that time.

00:37:58.080 | And certainly smoking, dipping, vaping, and snuffing

00:38:02.760 | aren't good because you're gonna run into trouble

00:38:06.540 | for other reasons.

00:38:07.840 | But in any case, oh, and even there,

00:38:10.280 | vaping's a controversial topic.

00:38:12.000 | Probably safer than smoking, but has its own issues.

00:38:15.660 | And I said something like that,

00:38:17.520 | and boy, did I catch a lot of heat for that.

00:38:19.320 | You can't say anything as a health science educator

00:38:21.440 | and not piss somebody off.

00:38:23.360 | It just depends on where the center of mass is

00:38:25.640 | and how far outside that you are.

00:38:27.720 | - For me, the caffeine is the main thing.

00:38:30.280 | And actually, it's a really big part of my life.

00:38:34.300 | And one of the things you recommend

00:38:35.400 | that people wait a bit in the morning to consume caffeine.

00:38:38.880 | - If they experience a crash in the afternoon,

00:38:43.480 | this is one of the misconceptions I regret,

00:38:49.080 | maybe even discussing it for people

00:38:50.880 | that crash in the afternoon.

00:38:52.280 | Oftentimes, if they delay their caffeine

00:38:55.960 | by 60 and 90 minutes in the morning,

00:38:57.840 | they will offset some of that.

00:38:59.520 | But if you eat a lunch that's too big

00:39:01.000 | or you didn't sleep well the night before,

00:39:02.220 | you're not gonna avoid that afternoon crash.

00:39:04.840 | But I'll wake up sometimes

00:39:06.440 | and go straight to hydration and caffeine,

00:39:08.040 | especially if I'm gonna work out.

00:39:09.120 | Here's a weird one.

00:39:10.080 | If I exercise before 8.30 a.m.,

00:39:16.280 | especially if I start exercising

00:39:17.760 | when I'm a little bit tired,

00:39:19.200 | I get energy that lasts all day.

00:39:21.880 | If I wait until my peak of energy,

00:39:24.160 | which is mid-morning, 10 a.m., 11 a.m.,

00:39:26.480 | and I start exercising then,

00:39:28.240 | I'm basically exhausted all afternoon.

00:39:30.160 | And I don't understand why.

00:39:31.360 | I mean, it depends on the intensity of the workout.

00:39:33.880 | So I like to be done, showered,

00:39:36.280 | and heading into work by 9 a.m.,

00:39:39.420 | but I don't always meet that mark.

00:39:41.280 | - So you're saying it doesn't affect your energy

00:39:43.080 | if you start with exercising.

00:39:45.320 | - I think you can get energy

00:39:46.720 | and wake yourself up with exercise if you start early,

00:39:49.600 | and then that fuels you all day long.

00:39:52.240 | I think that if you wait

00:39:53.160 | until you're feeling at your best to train,

00:39:56.480 | sometimes that's detrimental

00:39:57.740 | because then in the afternoon when you're doing

00:39:59.960 | the work we get paid for,

00:40:01.640 | like research, podcasting, et cetera,

00:40:04.260 | then oftentimes your brain isn't firing as well.

00:40:08.160 | - That's interesting.

00:40:09.000 | I haven't really rigorously tried that,

00:40:10.720 | wake up and just start running or lifting.

00:40:12.920 | - This is the Jocko thing.

00:40:14.160 | And then there's this phenomenon called entrainment

00:40:17.080 | where if you force yourself to exercise or eat

00:40:21.200 | or socialize or view bright light

00:40:23.960 | at a certain time of day for three to seven days in a row,

00:40:26.680 | pretty soon there's an anticipatory circuit

00:40:29.480 | that gets generated.

00:40:30.320 | This is why anyone in theory can become a morning person

00:40:34.240 | to some degree or another.

00:40:35.680 | And this is also a beautiful example

00:40:39.760 | of why you wake up before your alarm clock goes off.

00:40:42.320 | People wake up and all of a sudden it goes off.

00:40:43.920 | It wasn't 'cause it clicked,

00:40:45.040 | it's because you have this incredible timekeeping mechanism

00:40:47.960 | that exists in sleep.

00:40:49.720 | And there's some papers that have been published

00:40:51.000 | in the last couple of years,

00:40:52.480 | Nature Neuroscience and elsewhere showing

00:40:54.160 | that people can answer math problems in their sleep,

00:40:56.560 | simple math problems, but math problems nonetheless.

00:40:59.960 | (laughing)

00:41:01.480 | This does not mean that if you ask your partner a question

00:41:03.560 | in sleep that they're gonna answer accurately.

00:41:06.720 | - Like they might screw up the whole cumulative probability

00:41:11.320 | of 20% across multiple months.

00:41:13.420 | - All right, listen.

00:41:14.700 | - What happened?

00:41:15.540 | - What happened?

00:41:16.380 | Here's the deal.

00:41:17.360 | A few years back, I did a four and a half hour,

00:41:19.640 | after editing, four and a half hour episode

00:41:21.660 | on male and female fertility.

00:41:23.220 | The entire recording took 11 hours.

00:41:27.880 | And at one point during the,

00:41:30.640 | and by the way, I'm very proud of that episode.

00:41:33.040 | Many couples have written to me and said

00:41:36.680 | they now have children as a consequence of that episode.

00:41:39.040 | And my first question is,

00:41:40.000 | what were you doing during the episode?

00:41:41.960 | But in all seriousness--

00:41:43.860 | - We should say that it's four and a half hours.

00:41:47.320 | And for people, and they should listen to the episode,

00:41:51.460 | it's an extremely technical episode.

00:41:53.340 | Like you're nonstop dropping facts

00:41:55.140 | and referencing a huge number of papers.

00:41:58.360 | It must be exhausting.

00:41:59.500 | I don't understand how you can possibly--

00:42:00.340 | - It talks about sperm health, spermatogenesis.

00:42:02.740 | It talks about the ovulatory cycle.

00:42:04.980 | It talks about things people can do

00:42:06.380 | that are considered absolutely supported by science.

00:42:09.860 | It talks about some of the things

00:42:10.740 | kind of out on the edge a little bit

00:42:12.420 | that are a little bit more experimental.

00:42:13.580 | It talks about IVF.

00:42:14.420 | It talks about ICSI.

00:42:15.240 | It talks about all of that.

00:42:17.580 | It talks about frequency of pregnancy

00:42:19.660 | as a function of age, et cetera.

00:42:22.360 | But there's this one portion there in the podcast

00:42:26.760 | where I'm talking about the probability

00:42:29.500 | of a successful pregnancy as a function of age.

00:42:32.740 | And so there was a clip that was cut

00:42:37.140 | in which I was describing cumulative probability.

00:42:40.860 | And by the way,

00:42:41.700 | we've published cumulative probability histograms

00:42:43.620 | in many of my laboratory's papers,

00:42:45.380 | including one that was a Nature article in 2018.

00:42:47.620 | So we run these all the time.

00:42:48.920 | And yes, I know the difference

00:42:49.900 | between independent and cumulative probability.

00:42:52.340 | That's just like, I do.

00:42:53.640 | The way the clip was cut and what I stated,

00:42:58.980 | unfortunately combined to like a pretty great gaffe

00:43:03.220 | where I say, you're just adding,

00:43:05.860 | I said, you're just adding percentages, 20 to 120%.

00:43:09.540 | And then I made a kind of,

00:43:11.300 | unfortunately my humor isn't always so good.

00:43:13.480 | And I made a joke.

00:43:14.320 | I said, 120%, but that's a different thing altogether.

00:43:18.300 | What I should have said was that's impossible.

00:43:22.900 | And here's how it actually works.

00:43:25.580 | But then it continues where I then describe

00:43:28.380 | the cumulative probability histogram

00:43:30.140 | for successful pregnancy.

00:43:33.500 | But somewhere in the early portion,

00:43:35.620 | I misstated something, right?

00:43:37.480 | I made a math error,

00:43:39.300 | which implied I didn't understand the difference

00:43:40.940 | between independent and cumulative probability,

00:43:43.580 | which I do.

00:43:44.740 | And it got picked up and run,

00:43:46.860 | and people had a really good laugh

00:43:48.780 | with that one at my expense.

00:43:51.140 | And so what I did in response to it was,

00:43:53.600 | rather than just say everything I just said now,

00:43:56.780 | I said, I just came out online and said,

00:43:59.180 | hey folks, in an episode dated this on fertility,

00:44:03.660 | I made a math error.

00:44:04.900 | Here is the formula for cumulative probability,

00:44:08.500 | successful pregnancy at that age.

00:44:10.300 | Here's the graph, here's the, you know,

00:44:11.940 | and I offered it as a teaching moment in two ways.

00:44:14.900 | One, for people to understand cumulative probability.

00:44:17.580 | It was sort of interesting to a number of people

00:44:19.100 | that had come out critiquing the GAF.

00:44:21.380 | Also like biology and folks came out

00:44:24.420 | pointing out that they didn't understand

00:44:26.040 | cumulative probability.

00:44:26.940 | So there was a lot of posturing.

00:44:28.660 | You know, the dog pile,

00:44:29.580 | oftentimes people are quick to dog pile.

00:44:31.300 | They didn't understand,

00:44:32.140 | but a lot of people did understand.

00:44:33.500 | Some smart people out there, obviously.

00:44:35.820 | I called my dad and he was just laughing.

00:44:37.540 | He goes, oh, this is good.

00:44:38.780 | This is like the old school way of hammering academics.

00:44:41.600 | But the point being, it was a teaching moment.

00:44:46.060 | Gave me an opportunity to say, hey, I made a mistake.

00:44:49.540 | I also made a mistake in another podcast

00:44:51.300 | where I did a micron to millimeter conversion

00:44:54.780 | and or centimeter conversion.

00:44:56.500 | And we always correct these in the show note captions.

00:44:58.440 | We correct them in the audio now.

00:45:00.100 | Unfortunately on YouTube, it's harder to correct.

00:45:03.020 | You can't go and edit in segments.

00:45:04.300 | We put it in the captions.

00:45:05.660 | But that was the one teaching moment.

00:45:07.900 | If you make a mistake, it's substantive and relate to data.

00:45:10.420 | You apologize and correct the mistake.

00:45:12.780 | Use it as a teaching moment.

00:45:13.660 | The other one was to say, hey, you know,

00:45:16.340 | in all the thousands of hours of content we've put out,

00:45:19.060 | I'm sure I've made some small errors.

00:45:20.540 | I think I once said serotonin when I meant dopamine

00:45:23.060 | and you know, you're going, you're riffing.

00:45:25.700 | And it's a reminder to be careful, to edit, double-check.

00:45:30.240 | But the internet usually edits for us.

00:45:33.080 | And then we go make corrections.

00:45:34.560 | But it didn't feel good at first, but ultimately,

00:45:37.120 | you know, I can laugh at myself about it.

00:45:39.220 | Long ago at Berkeley, when I was TAing my first class,

00:45:44.280 | it was a biopsychology class, to be 1998 or 1999.

00:45:49.120 | I was drawing the pituitary gland,

00:45:51.880 | which is, you know, it has an anterior

00:45:53.600 | and a posterior lobe, actually it's a medial lobe too.

00:45:56.140 | I had probably 500, 600 students in that lecture hall.

00:45:58.980 | And I drew a chalkboard and I drew the two lobes

00:46:01.820 | of the pituitary and I said, my back was to the audience.

00:46:04.580 | I said, you know, and so they just sort of hang there

00:46:07.980 | and everyone just erupted in laughter

00:46:10.100 | 'cause it looked like a scrotum with two testicles.

00:46:12.560 | And I remember thinking like, oh my God,

00:46:14.940 | I don't think I can turn around, I can face this, you know.

00:46:19.100 | And I'm like, oh, I got to turn around sooner or later.

00:46:21.640 | So I turned around and we just all had a big laugh together.

00:46:24.820 | It was embarrassing.

00:46:26.060 | I'll tell you one thing though,

00:46:27.040 | they never forgot about the two lobes of the pituitary.

00:46:29.820 | - Yeah, and you haven't forgotten about that either.

00:46:32.740 | - Right, there's a high salience for these kinds of things.

00:46:36.260 | And it also was kind of fun to see how excited people get

00:46:41.260 | to see people trip.

00:46:44.260 | It's like an elite sprinter trips and does something stupid,

00:46:47.180 | like, you know, runs the opposite direction

00:46:48.820 | of the blocks or something like that.

00:46:50.240 | And, or, you know, I recall at one World Cup match years ago,

00:46:55.240 | a guy scored against his own team.

00:46:57.280 | I think they killed the guy.

00:46:58.840 | Do you remember that?

00:47:00.220 | Some South American or Central American team.

00:47:02.200 | - Yeah. - And they killed the guy.

00:47:04.040 | But yeah, let's look it up.

00:47:06.340 | I just said World Cup.

00:47:08.440 | Yeah, he was gunned down.

00:47:09.860 | - Andres Escobar. - Yeah.

00:47:13.000 | - Scored against his own team in 1994 World Cup

00:47:15.960 | in the United States.

00:47:17.740 | Just 27 years old, playing for the Columbia national team.

00:47:22.740 | - Yeah, last name Escobar, it's a good name.

00:47:25.760 | - Think it would protect you.

00:47:27.800 | - Listen, you know, so there are some gaffes

00:47:30.880 | that get people killed, right?

00:47:35.380 | So, you know, how forgiving are we for online mistakes?

00:47:40.380 | You know, it's the nature of the mistakes.

00:47:43.080 | People were quite gracious about the gaffe,

00:47:45.960 | and some weren't.

00:47:46.920 | And, you know, it's interesting that we,

00:47:51.540 | as public health science educators,

00:47:55.240 | you know, we'll do long podcasts sometimes,

00:47:58.980 | and you need to be really careful.

00:48:00.580 | What's great is AI allows you to check

00:48:04.260 | these things now more readily.

00:48:07.060 | So that's cool.

00:48:09.340 | And there are ways that it's now gonna

00:48:12.900 | be more self-correcting.

00:48:14.060 | I mean, you know, I think there's a lot of errors

00:48:17.340 | out there on the internet, and people are finding them,

00:48:19.660 | and it's cool, like things are getting cleaned up.

00:48:21.740 | - Yeah, but mistakes nevertheless will happen.

00:48:23.860 | Are you, do you feel the pressure of not making mistakes?

00:48:28.860 | - Sure, I mean, you know, I try and get things right

00:48:32.380 | to the best of, you know, to the best of my ability.

00:48:35.440 | I check with experts.

00:48:36.660 | It's kind of interesting when people really don't like

00:48:39.140 | something that was said in a podcast,

00:48:41.340 | a lot of times I chuckle 'cause I'm, you know,

00:48:43.380 | at Stanford we have some amazing scientists,

00:48:45.740 | but I talk to them else, people elsewhere.

00:48:48.100 | And it's always interesting to me how,

00:48:54.460 | you know, I'll get divergent information,

00:48:59.740 | and then I'll find the overlap in the Venn diagram,

00:49:02.980 | and I have this, like, question.

00:49:04.720 | Do I just stay with the overlap in the Venn diagram?

00:49:07.500 | Like, I did an episode on oral health.

00:49:09.940 | I didn't know this until I researched that episode,

00:49:12.940 | but oral health is critically related

00:49:15.900 | to heart health and brain health.

00:49:17.420 | There's a bacteria that causes cavity streptococcus,

00:49:20.380 | you know, that can make its way

00:49:23.540 | into other parts of the body through the mouth

00:49:25.820 | that can cause serious issues.

00:49:28.140 | There's the idea that some forms of dementia,

00:49:30.460 | some forms of heart disease start in the mouth, basically.

00:49:34.380 | I talked to no fewer than four dentists, dental experts,

00:49:38.540 | and there was a lot of convergence.

00:49:40.520 | I also learned that teeth can demineralize,

00:49:44.480 | that's the formation of cavities.

00:49:45.880 | They can also remineralize.

00:49:47.120 | As long as the cavity isn't too deep,

00:49:48.400 | it can actually fill itself back in,

00:49:50.320 | especially if you provide the right substrates for it.

00:49:53.360 | That saliva is this incredible fluid

00:49:55.640 | that has all this capacity to remineralize teeth,

00:49:58.120 | provided the milieu is right.

00:50:00.000 | Things like alcohol-based mouthwashes,

00:50:02.340 | killing off some of the critical things you need.

00:50:04.560 | It's fascinating, and I put out that episode thinking,

00:50:06.400 | oh, I'm not a dentist, I'm not an oral health episode,

00:50:08.360 | but I talked to a pediatric dentist.

00:50:09.900 | There's a terrific one, Dr. Downscore Stacey,

00:50:13.740 | S-T-A-C-I on Instagram, does great content.

00:50:17.200 | Talked to some others, and then I just waited for the attack.

00:50:22.200 | I was like, here we go, and it didn't come,

00:50:25.200 | and dentists were thanking me.

00:50:26.640 | I was like, whew, you know?

00:50:28.640 | That's a rare thing.

00:50:29.880 | More often than not, if I do an episode about,

00:50:32.080 | say, psilocybin or MDMA, you get some people liking it,

00:50:35.880 | or ADHD and the drugs for ADHD.

00:50:37.800 | We did a whole episode on the Ritalin, Vyvanse,

00:50:40.140 | Adderall stuff.

00:50:41.220 | You get people saying, thank you.

00:50:42.460 | You know, I prescribed this to my kid, and it really helps.

00:50:45.360 | But they're private about the fact that they do it

00:50:48.900 | because they get so much attack from other people.

00:50:52.100 | So I like to find the center of mass, report that,

00:50:57.100 | try and make it as clear as possible,

00:50:59.320 | and then I know that there's some stuff

00:51:01.060 | where I'm gonna catch shit.

00:51:03.200 | What's frustrating for me is when I see claims

00:51:08.140 | that I'm against fluoridization of water, which I'm not.

00:51:11.580 | We talked about the benefits of fluoride.

00:51:13.100 | It builds hyper-strong bonds within the teeth.

00:51:16.100 | I went and looked at some of the,

00:51:18.340 | literally, the crystal, excuse me,

00:51:19.960 | not the crystal structure,

00:51:21.220 | but essentially the micron and submicron structure of teeth.

00:51:26.220 | It's incredible, and where fluoride can get in there

00:51:29.140 | and form these super-strong bonds,

00:51:31.460 | and you can also form them with things

00:51:33.160 | like hydroxyapatite, and why is there fluoride in water?

00:51:35.520 | Well, it's the best.

00:51:36.360 | Okay, you say some things that are interesting,

00:51:39.700 | but then somehow it gets turned into

00:51:41.200 | like you're against fluoridization, which I'm not,

00:51:43.720 | or I've been accused of being against sunscreen.

00:51:46.200 | I wear mineral-based sunscreen on my face.

00:51:49.120 | I don't wanna get skin cancer, or I use a physical barrier.

00:51:52.480 | There is a cohort of people out there

00:51:53.680 | that think that all sunscreens are bad.

00:51:55.120 | I'm not one of them.

00:51:55.960 | I'm not what's called a sunscreen truther,

00:51:57.960 | but then you get attacked for it.

00:52:00.000 | So we're talking about there are certain sunscreens

00:52:01.640 | that are problematic, and Rhonda Patrick's now

00:52:05.680 | starting to get vocal about this,

00:52:07.040 | and so there's certain topics it's interesting for which

00:52:09.840 | you have to listen carefully to what somebody is saying,

00:52:15.760 | but there's a lumping as opposed to splitting

00:52:19.060 | of what health educators say,

00:52:21.880 | and so it just seems like, like with politics,

00:52:24.480 | there's this urgency to just put people into a camp

00:52:27.520 | of expert versus like renegade or something,

00:52:31.480 | and it's not like that.

00:52:32.360 | It's just not like that.

00:52:33.200 | So the short answer is I really strive,

00:52:36.000 | really strive to get things right,

00:52:37.760 | but I know that I'm gonna piss certain people off,

00:52:40.040 | and you've taught me, and Joe's taught me,

00:52:44.600 | and other podcasters have taught me

00:52:47.520 | that if you worry too much about it,

00:52:50.160 | then you aren't gonna get the newest information out there.

00:52:54.280 | Like peptides, there's very little human data

00:52:56.160 | unless you're talking about Vilese or the melanin,

00:52:59.240 | you know, the stuff in the alpha melanocyte

00:53:00.640 | stimulating hormone stuff which are prescribed

00:53:02.620 | for female libido to enhance female libido,

00:53:04.960 | or sermorelin, which is for certain

00:53:07.480 | growth hormone deficiencies.

00:53:08.520 | With rare exception, there's very little human data,

00:53:11.360 | but people are still super interested,

00:53:13.520 | and a lot of people are taking and doing these things,

00:53:15.160 | so you wanna get the information out.

00:53:16.960 | - Do you try to not just look at the science

00:53:20.000 | but research what the communities are talking,

00:53:22.120 | what the various communities are talking about?

00:53:23.780 | Like maybe research what the conspiracy theorists

00:53:26.620 | are talking about, just so you know

00:53:29.580 | all the armies that are going to be attacking your castle.

00:53:34.000 | - Yes, so like for instance,

00:53:35.320 | there is a community of people online

00:53:36.720 | that believe that like if you consume seed oils

00:53:39.460 | or something that like you're setting up your skin

00:53:42.940 | for sunburn, and if you don't, you know,

00:53:44.620 | like there's all these like theories,

00:53:46.620 | but I like to, so I like to know what the theories are.

00:53:48.540 | I like to know what the extremes are,

00:53:50.580 | but I also like to know what the standard conversation is,

00:53:53.440 | but there's generally more agreement than disagreement.

00:53:56.720 | I think where, you know, I've been kind of bullish actually

00:54:01.360 | is, you know, like supplements.

00:54:02.900 | Like people go, "Oh, supplements."

00:54:04.100 | Well, there's food supplements, like a protein powder,

00:54:06.580 | just different than a vitamin, and then there are compounds.

00:54:09.660 | There are compounds that have real benefit,

00:54:11.940 | but people get very nervous about the fact

00:54:13.820 | that they're not regulated,

00:54:15.300 | but some of them are vetted for potency

00:54:18.660 | and for safety with more rigor than others, you know,

00:54:23.060 | and it's interesting to see how people

00:54:27.940 | who take care of themselves and put a lot of work into that

00:54:32.300 | are often attacked.

00:54:33.380 | That's been interesting.

00:54:34.300 | Also, one of the most controversial topics nowadays

00:54:36.460 | is Ozempic, Munjaro.

00:54:38.540 | I'm very middle of the road on this.

00:54:40.200 | I don't understand why the, quote, unquote,

00:54:43.300 | health wellness community is so against these things.

00:54:46.200 | I also don't understand why they have to be looked at

00:54:48.620 | as the only route.

00:54:49.820 | For some people, they've really helped them lose weight,

00:54:52.300 | and yes, there can be some muscle loss

00:54:54.020 | and other lean body loss,

00:54:56.180 | but that can be offset with resistance training.

00:54:58.220 | They've helped a lot of people,

00:54:59.740 | and other people are like, "No, this stuff is terrible."

00:55:02.380 | I think the most interesting thing about Ozempic, Munjaro

00:55:04.540 | is that they are GLP-1.

00:55:06.500 | They're in the GLP-1 pathway, glucagon-like peptide one,

00:55:09.560 | and it was discovered in Gila monsters,

00:55:12.700 | which is a lizard, basically,

00:55:17.100 | and someone, now the entomologist will dive on me.

00:55:20.740 | It's a big lizard-looking thing

00:55:22.460 | that doesn't eat very often,

00:55:24.020 | and they figured out that there's this peptide

00:55:25.660 | that allows it to curb its own appetite

00:55:28.980 | at the level of the brain and the gut,

00:55:32.180 | and it has a lot of homology, sequence homology,

00:55:34.860 | to what we now call GLP-1.

00:55:36.580 | So I love any time there's animal biology

00:55:38.620 | linked to cool human biology,

00:55:40.660 | linked to a drug that's powerful

00:55:42.700 | that can help people with obesity and type 2 diabetes,

00:55:45.100 | and there's evidence that can even curb some addictions.

00:55:49.380 | Those are newer data, but I don't see it as either/or.

00:55:52.740 | In fact, I've been a little bit disappointed

00:55:54.260 | at the way that the, whatever you want to call it,

00:55:57.220 | health, wellness, biohacking community

00:55:58.780 | has slammed on Ozempic, Munjaro.

00:56:00.700 | It's like, they're like, "Just get out and run."

00:56:02.660 | Listen, there are people who are carrying

00:56:04.020 | substantial amounts of weight

00:56:05.620 | that running could injure them.

00:56:07.540 | They get on these drugs and they can improve,

00:56:09.700 | and then hopefully they're also doing resistance training

00:56:11.660 | and eating better,

00:56:12.500 | and then you're bringing all the elements together.

00:56:14.540 | - Well, why do you think the criticism is happening?

00:56:16.420 | Is it that Ozempic became super popular

00:56:18.540 | so people are misusing it or that kind of thing?

00:56:20.500 | - No, I think what it is is that people think

00:56:24.020 | if it's a pharmaceutical, it's bad,

00:56:27.300 | and then, or if it's a supplement, it's bad,

00:56:30.180 | depending on which camp they're in,

00:56:31.300 | and it wouldn't it be wonderful to kind of like

00:56:33.860 | fill in the gap between this divide?

00:56:35.620 | You know, what I would like to see in politics

00:56:38.980 | and in health is neither right nor left,

00:56:41.900 | but what we can just call a league of reasonable people

00:56:44.540 | that looks at things on an issue-by-issue basis

00:56:47.340 | and fills in the center,

00:56:48.620 | 'cause I think most people are in the,

00:56:50.740 | are, I don't wanna say center in a political way,

00:56:52.780 | but I think most people are reasonable.

00:56:54.580 | They want to be reasonable, but that's not what sells clicks.

00:56:58.260 | That's not what drives interest.

00:57:01.260 | But I'm a very, like, I look at issue-by-issue,

00:57:04.660 | person-by-person.

00:57:06.020 | I don't like in-group, out-group stuff.

00:57:07.460 | I never have.

00:57:08.300 | I've got friends from all walks of life.

00:57:10.060 | I said this on another podcast,

00:57:11.180 | and it always sounds like a political statement,

00:57:12.860 | but like the push towards, like, you know,

00:57:17.700 | polarization is, it's so frustrating.

00:57:19.980 | If there's one thing that's discouraging to me

00:57:22.180 | as I get older each year, I'm like,

00:57:24.740 | wow, are we ever gonna get out of this, like, polarization?

00:57:28.420 | Speaking of which, how are you gonna vote

00:57:30.340 | for the presidential election?

00:57:31.700 | (laughing)

00:57:33.140 | - I'm still trying to figure out

00:57:34.380 | how to interview the people involved and do it well.

00:57:37.660 | - What do you think the role of podcasts

00:57:39.380 | is gonna be in this year's election?

00:57:41.980 | - I would love long-form conversations

00:57:44.820 | to happen with the candidates.

00:57:48.260 | I think it's gonna be huge.

00:57:49.820 | I would love Trump to go on,

00:57:51.180 | Rogan, I'm embarrassed to say this,

00:57:54.660 | but I would love to, honestly,

00:57:56.820 | would love to see Joe Biden go on Joe Rogan also.

00:58:00.020 | - I would imagine that both would go on, but separately.

00:58:02.940 | - Separately, I think it's, I think a debate,

00:58:06.500 | Joe does debates, but I think Joe at his best

00:58:09.180 | is one-on-one conversation, really intimate.

00:58:12.380 | I just wish that Joe Biden

00:58:14.500 | would actually do long-form conversations.

00:58:17.300 | - I thought he had done a, it wasn't,

00:58:18.860 | I think it was on Jay Shetty's podcast.

00:58:21.300 | - He did Jay Shetty, he did a few,

00:58:23.180 | but when I mean long-form, I mean really long-form,

00:58:27.620 | like two, three hours, and more relaxed.

00:58:29.540 | It was much more orchestrated,

00:58:31.580 | because what happens when it's,

00:58:32.780 | the interview's a little bit too short,

00:58:34.900 | it becomes into this generic political type

00:58:39.220 | of NBC/CNN type of interview.

00:58:42.740 | You get a set of questions,

00:58:44.180 | and you don't get to really feel the human,

00:58:47.700 | expose the human to the light in the full,

00:58:50.860 | we talked about the shadow, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

00:58:53.460 | So I think there's something magical

00:58:55.340 | about two, three, four hours,

00:58:57.020 | but it doesn't have to be that long,

00:58:59.860 | but it has to have that feeling to it,

00:59:02.460 | where there's not people standing around,

00:59:05.140 | and everybody's nervous,

00:59:06.500 | and you're going to be strictly sticking

00:59:09.860 | to the question/answer type of feel,

00:59:12.060 | but just shooting shit,

00:59:13.100 | which Rogan is the best by far in the world at that.

00:59:17.620 | - I don't think people really appreciate

00:59:19.940 | how skilled he is at what he does,

00:59:25.980 | and the number, I mean the three or four podcasts per week,

00:59:30.420 | plus the UFC announcing, plus comedy tours in stadiums,

00:59:34.340 | plus doing comedy shows in the middle of the week,

00:59:39.180 | plus a husband, and a father, and a friend in jiu-jitsu,

00:59:43.260 | the guy's got superhuman levels of output.

00:59:46.340 | I agree that long form conversation

00:59:49.100 | is a whole other business,

00:59:50.620 | and I think that people want and deserve

00:59:52.940 | to know the people that are running for office

00:59:56.700 | in a different way, and to really get to know them.

01:00:01.260 | - Well, listen, I guess you,

01:00:03.620 | is it clear that he's gonna do jail time,

01:00:06.260 | or maybe he gets away with a fine?

01:00:07.660 | - No, I don't think, I'm--

01:00:08.740 | - Because I was gonna say,

01:00:10.140 | does that mean you're gonna be podcasting from jail?

01:00:11.820 | - In prison, yeah, we're going to,

01:00:13.580 | in fact, I'm going to figure out how to commit a crime

01:00:16.600 | so I can get in prison with him.

01:00:17.860 | - Please don't, please don't.

01:00:18.940 | - Well, that's, I'm sure they have visitors, right?

01:00:22.280 | - That just doesn't feel an authentic way

01:00:23.980 | to get the interview, but yeah, I understand.

01:00:26.580 | - You wouldn't be able to wear that suit,

01:00:28.260 | you'd be wearing a different suit.

01:00:29.720 | - That's true.

01:00:30.560 | - Yeah, it's gonna be interesting,

01:00:32.900 | and you'd do, I'm not just saying this

01:00:34.860 | 'cause you're my friend, but you would do a marvelous job.

01:00:37.220 | I think you should sit down with all of them separately

01:00:40.420 | to keep it civil, and see what happens.

01:00:43.940 | Here's one thing that I found really interesting

01:00:47.500 | in this whole political landscape.

01:00:49.740 | When I'm in Los Angeles, I often get invited to these,

01:00:52.700 | like, they're not dinners, but gatherings where,

01:00:55.660 | you know, a local bunch of podcasters will come together,

01:00:59.900 | but a lot of people from the entertainment industry,

01:01:02.620 | big agencies, big tech, like big, big tech,

01:01:05.420 | many of the people have been on this podcast,

01:01:08.300 | and they'll host a discussion or a debate,

01:01:11.300 | and what you find, if you look around the room

01:01:13.500 | and you talk to people, is that about half the people

01:01:16.460 | in the room are very left-leaning,

01:01:19.420 | and very outspoken about that,

01:01:21.080 | and they'll tell you exactly who they wanna see

01:01:22.660 | in the, win the presidential race,

01:01:24.980 | and the other half will tell you

01:01:26.780 | that they're for the other side.

01:01:28.380 | A lot of people that people assume

01:01:33.140 | are on one side of the aisle or the other

01:01:35.740 | are in the exact opposite side.

01:01:37.660 | Now, some people are very open about who they're for,

01:01:40.180 | but it's been very interesting to see how,

01:01:43.720 | when you get people one-on-one, they're, like, telling you

01:01:46.300 | they want X candidate to win, or Y candidate to win,

01:01:49.180 | and sometimes, like, really?

01:01:50.440 | I can't believe it.

01:01:51.280 | Like, you?

01:01:52.380 | Like, yep.

01:01:53.220 | And so, it's what people think about

01:01:57.540 | people's political leanings is often exactly wrong,

01:02:02.540 | and that's been eye-opening for me.

01:02:06.300 | And I've seen that on university campuses, too.

01:02:09.660 | And so, it's gonna be really, really interesting

01:02:12.100 | to see what happens in November.

01:02:13.860 | - In addition to that, as you said,

01:02:15.560 | most people are close to the center,

01:02:17.540 | despite what Twitter makes it seem like.

01:02:19.940 | Most people, whether they're center-left or center-right,

01:02:22.420 | they're kinda close to the center.

01:02:23.700 | - Yeah, I mean, here's, to me,

01:02:25.500 | the most interesting question.

01:02:26.420 | Who is gonna be the next big candidate in years to come?

01:02:31.140 | Like, who's that going to be?

01:02:32.320 | Right now, I don't see or know of that person.

01:02:36.020 | Who's it gonna be?

01:02:37.140 | - Yeah, the young, promising candidates,

01:02:39.140 | we're not seeing them.

01:02:40.820 | We're not seeing them.

01:02:42.140 | Another way to ask that question, who would want to be?

01:02:45.740 | - Well, that's the issue, right?

01:02:47.900 | Who wants to live in this 12-hour news cycle

01:02:50.320 | where you're just trying to dunk on the other team

01:02:52.920 | so that nobody notices the shit that you fucked up?

01:02:57.000 | That's not only not fun or interesting,

01:03:01.680 | it also is just, it's gotta be

01:03:04.680 | psychosis-inducing at some point.

01:03:07.000 | And I think that,

01:03:09.100 | God willing, we're gonna,

01:03:12.780 | some young guy or woman is on this

01:03:17.400 | and refuses to back down

01:03:21.160 | and was just determined to be president

01:03:23.480 | and will make it happen.

01:03:24.320 | But I don't even know who the viable candidates are.

01:03:29.320 | Maybe you, Lex, you know?

01:03:32.000 | We should ask Sagar.

01:03:33.400 | Sagar would know.

01:03:34.760 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:03:36.440 | - Maybe Sagar himself.

01:03:38.440 | - Sagar's show is awesome.

01:03:40.520 | - Yeah, it is. - He and Crystal

01:03:41.360 | do a great thing. - He's incredible.

01:03:42.520 | - Especially since they have

01:03:43.360 | somewhat divergent opinions on things.

01:03:45.080 | That's what makes it so cool.

01:03:46.080 | - He's great.

01:03:46.920 | He looks great in the suit, looks real sexy.

01:03:48.280 | - He's taking real good care of himself.

01:03:49.520 | - I think he's getting married soon.

01:03:51.360 | Congratulations, Sagar.

01:03:52.600 | Forgive me for not remembering your future wife's name.

01:03:56.160 | - He won my heart by giving me

01:03:57.920 | a biography of Hitler as a present.

01:04:01.400 | - That's what he gave you?

01:04:02.240 | - Yeah. - I gave you a hatchet

01:04:04.080 | with a poem inscribed in it. - That just shows

01:04:07.280 | the fundamental difference

01:04:08.360 | between the two. - With a poem inscribed in it.

01:04:11.080 | - Which was pretty damn good.

01:04:13.360 | - I realize everything we bring up on the screen

01:04:15.320 | is really depressing,

01:04:18.440 | like the soccer player getting killed.

01:04:21.320 | Can we bring up something happy?

01:04:23.480 | - Sure, let's go to Nature's Metal Instagram.

01:04:26.880 | - Those are pretty intense.

01:04:28.480 | We actually did a collaborative post on a shark thing.

01:04:31.480 | - Really? - Yeah.

01:04:32.320 | - What kind of shark thing?

01:04:33.160 | - So to generate the fear VR stimulus for my lab,

01:04:37.560 | in 20, was it, yeah, 2016,

01:04:41.920 | we went down to Guadalupe Island off the coast of Mexico.

01:04:44.720 | Me and a guy named Michael Muller,

01:04:45.920 | who's a very famous portrait photographer,

01:04:48.800 | but also takes photos of sharks,

01:04:51.600 | and we used 360 video to build VR of great white sharks,

01:04:56.600 | brought it back to the lab.

01:05:00.480 | We published that study in Current Biology.

01:05:02.920 | In 2017, went back down there,

01:05:05.200 | and that was the year that I exited the cage.

01:05:12.240 | You lower the cage with a crane,

01:05:13.680 | and that year I exited the cage.

01:05:14.840 | I had a whole mess with an air failure the day before.

01:05:17.320 | I was breathing from a hookah line while in the cage.

01:05:19.280 | I had no scuba on.

01:05:20.520 | Divers were out.

01:05:21.800 | The thing got boa constricted up,

01:05:23.240 | and I had an air failure,

01:05:24.240 | and I had to actually share air,

01:05:25.760 | and it was a whole mess.

01:05:26.760 | Story for another time.

01:05:27.960 | But the next day, because I didn't want to get PTSD,

01:05:30.640 | and it was pretty scary,

01:05:31.480 | the next day I cage exited with some other divers.

01:05:34.840 | And it turns out with these great white sharks,

01:05:37.080 | in Guadalupe, the water's very clear,

01:05:38.960 | and you can swim toward them,

01:05:40.160 | and then they'll veer off you if you swim toward them.

01:05:42.580 | Otherwise, they see you as prey.

01:05:44.320 | Well, in the evening, you've brought all the cages up,

01:05:47.360 | and you're hopefully all alive,

01:05:49.980 | and we were hanging out fishing for tuna.

01:05:54.520 | We had one of the crew on board had a line in the water

01:05:59.520 | and was fishing for tuna for dinner,

01:06:01.640 | and a shark took the tuna off the line.

01:06:04.160 | And it's a very dramatic take,

01:06:07.760 | and you can see the just absolute size

01:06:10.920 | of these great white sharks.

01:06:12.320 | The waters there are filled with them.

01:06:13.920 | That's the one.

01:06:15.160 | So this video, just the Neuralink link,

01:06:18.120 | was shot by Matt McDougall,

01:06:20.880 | who is the head neurosurgeon at Neuralink.

01:06:23.600 | There it is, it takes it.

01:06:24.440 | Now, believe it or not, it looks like it missed,

01:06:25.760 | like it didn't get the fish.

01:06:26.660 | It actually just cut that thing like a band saw.

01:06:29.960 | So I'm up on the deck with Matt.

01:06:32.320 | Yeah, and so when you look at it from the side,

01:06:35.320 | you really get a sense of the girth of this freaking thing.

01:06:40.800 | So as it comes up, if you look at the size of that thing,

01:06:44.680 | and they move through the water with such speed,

01:06:47.400 | just a couple, so when you're in the cage

01:06:49.480 | and the cage is lowered down below the surface,

01:06:52.000 | they're going around.

01:06:53.320 | You're not allowed to chum the water there.

01:06:54.760 | Some people do it, but, and then when you cage exit,

01:06:58.540 | they're like, well, what are you doing out here?

01:06:59.900 | And then, you know, you swim toward them, they veer off.

01:07:03.480 | But what's interesting is that

01:07:05.240 | if you look at how they move through the water,

01:07:07.500 | all it takes for one of these great white sharks,

01:07:09.440 | when it sees a tuna or something it wants to eat,

01:07:11.880 | is like two flicks of the tail and becomes like a missile.

01:07:16.800 | It's just unbelievable economy of effort.

01:07:19.760 | And Ocean Ramsey, who is, in my opinion,

01:07:22.600 | the greatest of all cage exit shark divers,

01:07:24.720 | this woman who dove with enormous great white sharks,

01:07:27.480 | she really understands their behavior

01:07:29.960 | when they're aggressive,

01:07:30.860 | when they're not gonna be aggressive.

01:07:32.080 | She and her husband, Juan, I believe his name is,

01:07:35.200 | they understand how the tiger sharks

01:07:36.800 | differ from the great white sharks.

01:07:38.040 | We were down there basically,

01:07:39.720 | like not understanding any of this.

01:07:41.280 | We never should have been there.

01:07:42.320 | And actually, the air failure the day before,

01:07:45.000 | plus cage exiting the next day,

01:07:47.200 | I told myself after coming up from the cage exit, that's it.

01:07:49.760 | I'm no longer taking risks with my life.

01:07:51.520 | I wanna live.

01:07:52.400 | Got back across the border a couple days later.

01:07:55.400 | I was like, that's it.

01:07:56.240 | I don't take risks with my life any longer.

01:07:58.300 | But yeah, MacDougall, Matt MacDougall shot that video,

01:08:01.160 | and then it went "viral" through "Nature is Metal."

01:08:05.900 | We passed them that video.

01:08:07.360 | - Actually, I saw a video where an instructor

01:08:11.960 | was explaining how to behave with a shark in the water,

01:08:14.960 | and that you don't wanna be swimming away

01:08:16.680 | because then you're acting like a prey.

01:08:18.200 | - That's right.

01:08:19.040 | - And then you wanna be acting like a predator

01:08:20.620 | by looking at it and swimming towards it.

01:08:22.440 | - Right towards them, and they'll bank off.

01:08:23.800 | Now, if you don't see them, they're ambush predators.

01:08:26.080 | You know, you're swimming in the surface.

01:08:27.120 | - And apparently, if they get close,

01:08:28.440 | you should just guide them away

01:08:29.960 | by grabbing them and moving them away.

01:08:32.520 | - Some people will actually roll them,

01:08:34.760 | but if they're coming in full speedy,

01:08:36.080 | you're not gonna roll the shark.

01:08:37.520 | But here we are, back to dark stuff again.

01:08:40.180 | I like the shark attack map,

01:08:41.800 | and the shark attack map shows that, you know,

01:08:44.880 | Northern California, there were a couple.

01:08:46.240 | Actually, a guy's head got taken off.

01:08:48.800 | He was swimming north of San Francisco.

01:08:50.960 | There's been a couple in Northern California.

01:08:52.800 | That was really tragic,

01:08:54.000 | but most of them are in Florida and Australia.

01:08:56.680 | - Florida, same with the alligators, right?

01:08:57.520 | - So the Surfrider Foundation shark attack map,

01:09:00.080 | there it is, they have a great map.

01:09:02.420 | - There you go.

01:09:03.260 | - So they look like, they have all these scars on them.

01:09:05.480 | So if you zoom in on, I mean, look at this.

01:09:09.120 | If you go to North America.

01:09:10.640 | - Look at the skulls, there's a--

01:09:13.680 | - Yeah, where they're deadly attacks.

01:09:16.180 | But in, yeah, Northern California,

01:09:17.840 | sadly, this is really tragic.

01:09:19.400 | If you zoom in on this one, I read about this.

01:09:23.680 | This guy, if you can click the link,

01:09:26.320 | 50-year-old male, he was in chest-high water.

01:09:28.920 | This is just tragic.

01:09:30.040 | I feel so sad for him and his family.

01:09:32.760 | You know, he's just, three members of the party

01:09:35.760 | chose to go in.

01:09:36.600 | He was, you know, nigh, nigh,

01:09:38.800 | was in his chest-high water, 25 to 50 yards from shore.

01:09:43.080 | Great, breached the water, seized his head,

01:09:44.780 | and that was it.

01:09:45.760 | You know, so it does happen.

01:09:47.000 | It's very infrequent.

01:09:48.200 | If you don't go in the ocean,

01:09:51.280 | there's a very, very, very low probability.

01:09:54.160 | But--

01:09:55.040 | - But if it doesn't happen six times in a row,

01:09:59.240 | that's 120% chance.

01:10:01.160 | - Yeah.

01:10:02.000 | - Are penguins a saltwater crocodile or a shark?

01:10:05.280 | - Okay, I do not like saltwater crocodiles.

01:10:07.920 | They scare me to no end.

01:10:09.480 | Muller, Michael Muller, who dove all over the world,

01:10:11.320 | he sent me a picture of him diving with salties,

01:10:16.240 | saltwater crocs in Cuba.

01:10:18.120 | It was a smaller one, but goodness gracious.

01:10:19.840 | Have you seen the size of some of those saltwater crocs?

01:10:21.960 | Yeah.

01:10:22.880 | I'm thinking the sharks are so agile.

01:10:25.900 | They're amazing.

01:10:27.080 | They've head-cammed one or body-cammed one

01:10:30.160 | moving through the kelp bed.

01:10:32.360 | And you look and it's just,

01:10:33.640 | they're so agile moving through the water.

01:10:35.680 | And it's looking up at the surface,

01:10:37.640 | like the camera's looking at the surface,

01:10:38.880 | and you just realize, if you're out there,

01:10:41.760 | you're not, and you're swimming,

01:10:44.560 | and you get hit by a shark, you're not--

01:10:46.280 | - I was gonna talk shit and say that a saltie

01:10:48.560 | has way more bite force, but according to the internet,

01:10:53.120 | recently data indicates that the shark has a stronger bite.

01:10:56.920 | So I was assuming that a crocodile

01:10:59.320 | would have a stronger bite force,

01:11:01.320 | and therefore agility doesn't matter,

01:11:02.800 | but apparently a shark.

01:11:04.680 | - Yeah, and turning one of those big salties

01:11:06.880 | is probably not that, you know, turning around,

01:11:09.480 | it's like a battleship.

01:11:10.400 | I mean, those sharks are unbelievable.

01:11:11.520 | They can hit from all sorts.

01:11:12.760 | Oh, and they do this thing, we saw this,

01:11:15.880 | you're out of the cage or in the cage,

01:11:18.200 | and you'll look at one, and you'll see its eye

01:11:20.040 | kind of like looking at you.

01:11:21.760 | They can't really fovee it, but they'll look at you.

01:11:23.560 | And you're tracking it, and then you'll look down,

01:11:26.480 | and you'll realize that one's coming at you.

01:11:28.000 | They're ambush preys, they're working together.

01:11:30.920 | It's fascinating.

01:11:32.440 | - I like how you know that they can't fovee it.

01:11:36.160 | You're already considering the vision system there.

01:11:38.060 | It's a very primitive vision system.

01:11:39.520 | - Very primitive, eyes on the side of the head.

01:11:41.360 | Vision is decent enough.

01:11:42.640 | They're mostly, obviously, sensing things

01:11:44.640 | with their electro-sensing in the water,

01:11:47.600 | but also olfaction.

01:11:50.040 | Yeah, I spend far too much time thinking about

01:11:53.680 | and learning about the visual systems of different animals.

01:11:56.040 | If you get me going on this, we'll be here all night.

01:11:58.280 | - See, this is why I have the smuggled out tooth.

01:12:00.160 | I saw this in a store, and I got it.

01:12:02.040 | 'Cause this is from a shark.

01:12:05.200 | - Goodness.

01:12:06.040 | Yeah, I can't say I ever saw one with teeth this big,

01:12:08.200 | but it's beautiful. - Imagine that.

01:12:09.640 | - It's beautiful.

01:12:11.080 | Yeah, it's probably, you know,

01:12:13.320 | probably your blood pressure just goes,

01:12:14.680 | and you don't feel a thing.

01:12:16.280 | - Yeah, it's not good.

01:12:17.840 | - Before we went down for the cage exit,

01:12:20.400 | a guy in our crew, Pat Dossett,

01:12:22.920 | who's a very experienced diver,

01:12:26.540 | asked one of the South African divers,

01:12:29.400 | so what's the contingency plan if somebody catches a bite?

01:12:33.080 | And they were like, he was like every man for himself,

01:12:35.840 | and they're like, basically saying,

01:12:37.240 | if somebody catches a bite, that's it, you know?

01:12:39.800 | Anyway, I thought we were gonna bring up something happy.

01:12:43.440 | - Oh, that is happy.

01:12:45.020 | - Well, we lived. - Nature is beautiful.

01:12:46.480 | - Yeah, nature is beautiful.

01:12:48.040 | We lived, but you know, there are happy things.

01:12:52.280 | You brought up nature as metal.

01:12:53.720 | See, this is the difference

01:12:54.640 | between Russian Americans and Americans.

01:12:58.400 | It's like, maybe this is actually a good time

01:13:00.200 | to bring up your ayahuasca journey.

01:13:02.520 | I've never done ayahuasca, but I'm curious about it.

01:13:06.480 | I'm also curious about ibogaine, iboga,

01:13:09.360 | but you told me that you did ayahuasca,

01:13:14.280 | and that for you, it wasn't the dark, scary ride

01:13:17.600 | that it is for everybody else.

01:13:19.080 | - Yeah, it was an incredible experience for me.

01:13:20.760 | I did it twice, actually.

01:13:22.080 | - And have you done high-dose psilocybin?

01:13:24.600 | - Never, no.

01:13:25.440 | I just did small-dose psilocybin a couple times.

01:13:28.880 | So, I was nervous about it.

01:13:30.640 | I was very scared. - Yeah, understandably so.

01:13:32.360 | I've done high-dose psilocybin.

01:13:33.600 | It's terrifying, but I've always gotten

01:13:35.680 | something very useful out of it.

01:13:37.360 | - So, I mean, I was nervous about whatever demons

01:13:40.560 | might hide in the shadow, in the Jungian shadow.

01:13:43.600 | Like, I was nervous, but I think it turns out,

01:13:47.160 | I don't know what the lesson is to draw from that,

01:13:49.280 | but my experience-- - Be born Russian.

01:13:52.200 | - It must be the Russian thing.

01:13:54.040 | I mean, there's also something to the jungle.

01:13:57.020 | It strips away all the bullshit of life,

01:13:59.760 | and you're just there.

01:14:01.200 | I forgot the outside civilization exists.

01:14:04.540 | I forgot time, because when you don't have your phone,

01:14:08.800 | you don't have meetings or calls or whatever,

01:14:10.960 | you lose a sense of time.

01:14:12.400 | The sun comes up, the sun comes down.

01:14:14.480 | - That's the fundamental biological timer.

01:14:17.560 | You know, every mammalian species has a short wavelength.

01:14:21.640 | So you think like blue UV type, but like absorbing cone,

01:14:25.520 | and a longer wavelength absorbing cone,

01:14:27.440 | and it does this interesting subtraction

01:14:30.120 | to designate when it's morning and evening,

01:14:31.920 | because when the sun is low in the sky,

01:14:33.320 | you've got short wavelength and long wavelength light.

01:14:36.000 | Like when you look at a sunrise,

01:14:37.200 | it's got blues and yellows, orange and yellows.

01:14:38.760 | You look in the evening, reds, orange, and blues,

01:14:41.560 | and in the middle of the day, it's like full-spectrum light.

01:14:44.160 | Now, it's always full-spectrum light,

01:14:45.320 | but because of some atmospheric elements,

01:14:49.340 | and because of the low solar angle,

01:14:51.700 | that difference between the different wavelengths of light

01:14:54.960 | is the fundamental signal that the neurons in your eye

01:14:57.680 | pay attention to and signal

01:14:59.160 | to your circadian timekeeping mechanism.

01:15:01.320 | At the core of our brain, in the suprachiasmatic nucleus,

01:15:03.720 | we are wired to be entrained

01:15:08.720 | to the rising and setting of the sun.

01:15:11.080 | That's the biological timer, which makes perfect sense,

01:15:13.360 | because obviously, as the planets spin and revolve.

01:15:18.400 | - I also wonder how that is affected by,

01:15:20.580 | you know, in the rainforest, the sun is not visible often,

01:15:24.060 | so you're under the cover of the trees.

01:15:27.100 | So maybe that affects--

01:15:28.700 | - Well, there are social rhythms.

01:15:30.300 | There are feeding rhythms.

01:15:31.620 | Sometimes, in terms of some species,

01:15:34.100 | will signal the timing of activity of other species.

01:15:37.020 | But yeah, getting out from the canopy is critical.

01:15:41.900 | Of course, even under the canopy during the daytime,

01:15:44.060 | there's far more photons than at night.

01:15:46.980 | You know, this is always when I'm telling people

01:15:48.480 | to get sunlight in their eyes in the morning

01:15:50.260 | and in the evening.

01:15:51.200 | People say, "There's no light, no sunlight this time of year."

01:15:53.760 | Go outside on a really overcast day.

01:15:55.480 | It's far brighter than it is at night, right?

01:15:57.760 | So there's still lots of sunlight,

01:15:59.860 | even if you can't see the sun as an object.

01:16:01.260 | But I love time perception shifts.

01:16:06.260 | And you mentioned that in the jungle,

01:16:08.260 | it's linked to the rising and setting of the sun.

01:16:10.280 | You also mentioned that on Ayahuasca,

01:16:12.160 | you zoomed out from the earth.

01:16:13.960 | These are like, to me, the most interesting aspects

01:16:16.280 | of having a human brain, as opposed to another brain.

01:16:18.920 | Of course, I've only ever had a human brain.

01:16:20.720 | But, which is that you can consciously

01:16:24.100 | set your time domain window.

01:16:27.920 | Like, we can be focused here,

01:16:29.560 | we can be focused on all of Austin,

01:16:30.960 | or we can be focused on the entire planet.

01:16:32.960 | You can make those choices consciously.

01:16:35.520 | But in the time domain, it's hard.

01:16:37.280 | Like, different activities bring us into fine slicing

01:16:39.600 | or more broad bending of time,

01:16:41.860 | depending on what we're doing.

01:16:43.600 | Programming, or exercising, or researching, or podcasting.

01:16:47.280 | But just how unbelievably fluid the human brain is

01:16:52.160 | in terms of the aperture of the time-space window

01:16:56.560 | of our cognition and of our experience.

01:16:59.320 | And I feel like this is perhaps

01:17:01.160 | one of the more valuable tools that we have access to

01:17:04.060 | that we don't really leverage as much as we should,

01:17:06.480 | which is when things are really hard,

01:17:09.280 | you need to zoom out and see it as one element

01:17:12.880 | within your whole lifespan, and that there's more to come.

01:17:15.780 | You know, I mean, people commit suicide

01:17:19.400 | because they can't see beyond the time domain they're in,

01:17:21.760 | or they think it's gonna go on forever.

01:17:24.520 | When we're happy, we rarely think

01:17:26.400 | this is gonna last forever.

01:17:27.920 | But, which is an interesting contrast in its own right.

01:17:31.160 | But, I think that psychedelics,

01:17:35.020 | while I have very little experience with them,

01:17:36.840 | I have some, and it sounds like

01:17:38.480 | they're just a very interesting window

01:17:40.880 | into the different apertures.

01:17:43.600 | - Well, how to surf that wave is probably a skill.

01:17:46.420 | One of the things I was prepared for,

01:17:49.600 | and I think it's important, is not to resist.

01:17:52.220 | I think, I understand what it means to resist a thing,

01:17:56.080 | a powerful wave, and it's not going to be good,

01:17:58.080 | so you have to be able to surf it.

01:17:59.240 | So, I was ready for that, to relax through it.

01:18:00.960 | And maybe because I'm quite good at that,

01:18:04.560 | from knowing how to relax in all kinds of disciplines,

01:18:10.360 | playing piano and guitar when I was super young,

01:18:13.600 | and then through jiu-jitsu, knowing the value of relaxation,

01:18:16.280 | and through all kinds of sports,

01:18:17.960 | to be able to relax the body fully,

01:18:19.760 | just accept whatever happens to you.

01:18:21.600 | That process is probably why

01:18:23.120 | it was a very positive experience for me.

01:18:25.520 | - Do you have any interest in Iboga?

01:18:27.160 | I'm very interested in Ibogaine, Iboga.

01:18:29.640 | There's a colleague of mine and researcher

01:18:31.360 | at Stanford, Nolan Williams,

01:18:32.520 | who's been doing some transcranial magnetic stimulation

01:18:34.920 | and brain imaging on people who have taken Ibogaine.

01:18:38.520 | - Ibogaine, as I understand it,

01:18:41.800 | gives a 22-hour psychedelic journey

01:18:44.640 | where no hallucinations with eyes open,

01:18:46.680 | but you close your eyes and you get a very high-resolution

01:18:50.360 | image of actual events that happened in your life,

01:18:52.680 | but then you have agency within those movies.

01:18:55.160 | I think you have to be of healthy heart to be able to do it.

01:18:58.220 | I think you have to be on a heart rate monitor.

01:18:59.560 | It's not trivial, it's not like these other psychedelics.

01:19:03.040 | But there's a wonderful group called Veteran Solutions,

01:19:08.360 | that has used Iboga combined with some other psychedelics

01:19:13.360 | in the veterans community to great success

01:19:17.620 | for things like PTSD.

01:19:19.640 | And it's a group I've really tried to support

01:19:22.480 | in any way that I can,

01:19:23.980 | mainly by being vocal about the great work they're doing.

01:19:26.540 | But you hear incredible stories of people

01:19:29.880 | who are just like near cratered in their life

01:19:33.080 | or zombied by PTSD and other things post-war,

01:19:37.380 | get back a lightness or achieve a lightness and a clarity

01:19:41.640 | that they didn't feel they had.

01:19:43.640 | So I'm very curious about these compounds.

01:19:46.440 | The state of Kentucky, we should check this,

01:19:48.060 | but I believe it's taken money

01:19:50.320 | from the opioid crisis settlement for Ibogaine research.

01:19:55.240 | So this is like no longer, yeah, so if you look here,

01:19:58.080 | let's see, did they do it?

01:20:00.480 | Oh, no. - No.

01:20:01.320 | - Oh, no, they backed away.

01:20:03.240 | - Kentucky backs away from the plan

01:20:04.640 | to fund opioid treatment research.

01:20:06.440 | - They were going to use the money to treat opioid.

01:20:09.140 | Now officials are backing off.

01:20:10.440 | 50 billion, what, is on its way over the coming years.

01:20:14.080 | $50 billion.

01:20:15.600 | - $50 billion is on its way to state and local government

01:20:18.320 | over the coming years.

01:20:19.320 | The pool of funding comes from multiple legal statements

01:20:21.600 | with pharmaceutical companies that profited

01:20:23.680 | from manufacturing or selling opioid painkillers.

01:20:27.200 | - Kentucky has some of the highest number of deaths

01:20:29.400 | from the opioid.

01:20:30.240 | We're going to do psychedelic research with Ibogaine,

01:20:34.000 | supporting research on illegal, illegal folks,

01:20:38.560 | psychedelic drug called Ibogaine.

01:20:39.780 | Well, I guess they backed away from it.

01:20:41.020 | Well, sooner or later we'll get some happy news

01:20:44.720 | up on the internet during this episode.

01:20:47.920 | - I don't know what you're talking about,

01:20:49.720 | the shark and the crocodile fighting.

01:20:51.280 | - Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true.

01:20:52.840 | And you survived the jungle.

01:20:54.440 | - Well, that's the thing.

01:20:56.160 | - I was writing to you on WhatsApp multiple times

01:20:59.000 | 'cause I was gonna put it on the internet.

01:21:00.120 | Are you okay?

01:21:00.960 | And if you're like alive,

01:21:01.800 | and then I was going to just like put it to Twitter,

01:21:03.720 | just like, he's alive.

01:21:05.120 | But then of course you're far too classy for that.

01:21:07.040 | So you just came back alive.

01:21:08.880 | - Well, jungle or not, one of the lessons is also,

01:21:15.120 | when you hear the call for adventure,

01:21:17.360 | just fucking do it.

01:21:21.040 | - I was going to ask you, it's kind of a silly question,

01:21:22.760 | but like, give me a small fraction of things

01:21:26.120 | on your bucket list.

01:21:27.080 | - Bucket list?

01:21:29.280 | - Yeah.

01:21:30.120 | - Go to Mars.

01:21:32.240 | - Yeah, what's the status of that?

01:21:35.120 | - I don't know, I'm being patient about the whole thing.

01:21:37.920 | - Red Planet ran that cartoon of you guys going to Mars.

01:21:41.720 | That was pretty funny.

01:21:42.560 | - That's true.

01:21:43.440 | - That was pretty funny.

01:21:44.600 | One where Goggins is already up there.

01:21:46.120 | - Yeah.

01:21:46.960 | - That's a great, that's a funny one.

01:21:48.840 | - Probably also true.

01:21:50.240 | I would love to die on Mars.

01:21:53.080 | But I just love humanity reaching onto the stars

01:21:58.680 | and doing this bold adventure

01:22:01.320 | and taking big risks and exploring.

01:22:03.200 | I love exploration.

01:22:04.920 | - What about seeing different animal species?

01:22:06.560 | I'm a huge fan of this guy, Joel Sartori,

01:22:09.480 | where he has this photo arc project

01:22:12.480 | where he takes portraits of all these different animals.

01:22:15.520 | If people aren't already following him on Instagram,

01:22:17.320 | he's doing some really important work.

01:22:19.240 | This guy's Instagram is amazing.

01:22:25.760 | - Like portraits of animals.

01:22:26.600 | - Well, look at it, look at these portraits.

01:22:28.280 | The amount of, I won't say personality,

01:22:31.160 | 'cause we don't want to project anything onto them,

01:22:32.800 | but the amount, like the eyes.

01:22:36.120 | And he'll occasionally put a movie.

01:22:37.760 | Look at that, there's a little owl.

01:22:39.560 | I delight in things like this.

01:22:41.320 | I've got some content coming on animals

01:22:43.800 | and animal neuroscience and eyes.

01:22:46.920 | - Dogs or all kinds?

01:22:48.320 | - All animals.

01:22:49.200 | And I'm very interested in kids content

01:22:55.040 | that incorporates animals.

01:22:57.080 | So we have some things brewing there.

01:22:58.240 | Like I could look at this kind of stuff all day long.

01:23:00.400 | Look at that bat.

01:23:01.440 | Like bats, people think about bats

01:23:02.720 | as kind of like a little flickering,

01:23:03.840 | a little annoying, disease-carrying things,

01:23:05.440 | but look how beautiful that little sucker is.

01:23:07.400 | - How's your podcast with the Cookie Monster coming?

01:23:10.760 | - Oh yeah, we've been in discussions with Cookie.

01:23:13.260 | Can't say too much about that,

01:23:17.120 | but Cookie Monster embodies dopamine, right?

01:23:20.880 | Cookie Monster wants cookie, right?

01:23:22.720 | Wants cookie right now.

01:23:23.640 | You know, like it was that one tweet,

01:23:25.520 | Cookie Monster, I bounce because cookies

01:23:27.280 | come from all directions.

01:23:28.680 | You know, it's like, it's just embodying the desire

01:23:31.560 | for something, which is an incredible aspect of ourselves.

01:23:35.240 | The other one is, you remember a little while ago,

01:23:38.280 | Elmo put out a tweet.

01:23:40.440 | Hey, how's everyone doing out there?

01:23:42.480 | And it went viral.

01:23:43.960 | And you know, the Surgeon General of the United States

01:23:46.160 | had been talking about the loneliness crisis.

01:23:47.880 | He came on the podcast.

01:23:49.000 | And a lot of people have been talking about

01:23:50.920 | problems with loneliness,

01:23:51.840 | mental health issues with loneliness.

01:23:53.640 | Elmo puts out a tweet.

01:23:55.200 | Hey, how's everyone doing out there?

01:23:57.040 | And everyone gravitates toward it.

01:23:59.680 | You know, so the different Sesame Street characters

01:24:02.120 | really embody the different kind of aspects of self

01:24:05.120 | through very like narrow neural circuit perspective.

01:24:08.100 | You know, Snuffleupagus is shy,

01:24:10.680 | and Oscar the Grouch is grouchy, right?

01:24:13.240 | And the Count, one, two.

01:24:15.680 | - The archetypes of, yeah.

01:24:17.080 | - The archetypes.

01:24:17.920 | - This is very Jungian, once again.

01:24:19.040 | - Yeah, and I think that, you know,

01:24:21.440 | the creators of Sesame Street clearly

01:24:23.320 | either understand that

01:24:24.160 | or it's an unconscious genius to that.

01:24:25.840 | So yeah, there are some things brewing

01:24:28.560 | on conversations with Sesame Street characters.

01:24:31.640 | It's not, I know you'd like to talk to Vladimir Putin.

01:24:33.880 | I'd like to talk to Cookie Monster.

01:24:36.120 | It illustrates the differences in our like,

01:24:38.480 | the sophistication or something.

01:24:40.600 | - Well, that's, yeah.

01:24:41.440 | - It illustrates a lot.

01:24:42.400 | Yeah, illustrates a lot.

01:24:44.800 | But yeah, I also, I love animation.

01:24:46.800 | So I'm not anime.

01:24:48.560 | That's not my thing, but animation.

01:24:49.960 | So I'm very interested in the use of animation

01:24:52.120 | to get science content across.

01:24:54.600 | So there are a bunch of things brewing.

01:24:56.320 | But anyway, I delight in Sartori's work

01:24:59.800 | and there's a conservation aspect to it as well.

01:25:03.320 | But I think that, mostly I want to thank you

01:25:05.760 | for finally putting up something that like,

01:25:07.160 | where something's not being killed

01:25:08.480 | or like some sad, sad outcome.

01:25:11.560 | - These are all really positive.

01:25:12.800 | - They're really cool.

01:25:13.880 | They're really cool.

01:25:14.720 | And every once in a while, look at that mountain lion.

01:25:17.220 | But I also like to look at these

01:25:20.320 | and some of them remind me of certain people, right?

01:25:23.760 | So let's just scroll through.

01:25:25.000 | Like for instance, I think when we don't try

01:25:26.560 | and process it too much.

01:25:27.520 | So like, okay, look at this cat, this civic cat.

01:25:31.600 | Amazing.

01:25:32.440 | Like, I feel like that's somebody,

01:25:33.320 | I feel like this is like someone I met once.

01:25:36.760 | As a young kid.

01:25:37.600 | - Curiosity.

01:25:38.420 | - Curiosity and a playfulness.

01:25:40.560 | - Carnivore.

01:25:41.800 | - Carnivore, frontalized eyes.

01:25:43.640 | - Found in forested areas.

01:25:45.640 | - Right.

01:25:46.480 | So then you go down, it's like,

01:25:49.360 | this beautiful fish.

01:25:50.880 | - Neon pink.

01:25:52.060 | - Right.

01:25:52.900 | So it reminds you of some of the,

01:25:53.880 | like the influencers you see on Instagram, right?

01:25:56.320 | Except this one's natural.

01:25:57.660 | Just kidding.

01:25:58.500 | Let's see, no filter.

01:26:01.960 | - No filter.

01:26:02.800 | - Yeah.

01:26:03.640 | Let's see, like, I feel like.

01:26:06.880 | - Bears, I'm a big fan of bears.

01:26:08.360 | - Yeah, bears are beautiful.

01:26:09.200 | This one kind of reminds me of you a little bit.

01:26:10.700 | There's like a stoic nature to it, a curiosity.

01:26:13.720 | So you can kind of feel like the essence of animals.

01:26:16.020 | You don't even have to do psychedelics to get there.

01:26:18.680 | - Oh, look at that.

01:26:19.520 | He's like the behind the scenes of how it's actually.

01:26:21.360 | - Yeah.

01:26:22.560 | And then there's.

01:26:23.400 | - Wow.

01:26:26.200 | - Yeah.

01:26:27.320 | Yeah, in the jungle, the diversity of life was also stark.

01:26:31.480 | From a scientific perspective,

01:26:32.720 | just the fact that most of those species are not identified

01:26:36.000 | was fascinating.

01:26:36.840 | - Right.

01:26:37.680 | - It was like a little,

01:26:38.600 | every little insect is a kind of discovery.

01:26:42.240 | - Right.

01:26:43.080 | I mean, one of the reasons I love New York City so much,

01:26:45.000 | despite its problems at times,

01:26:47.080 | is that everywhere you look, there's life.

01:26:50.120 | It's like a tropical reef.

01:26:51.200 | If you've ever done scuba diving or snorkeling,

01:26:53.480 | you look on a tropical reef and it's like,

01:26:55.320 | there's some little crab working on something.

01:26:56.880 | And like everywhere you look, there's life.

01:26:58.720 | You know, in the Bay Area,

01:26:59.560 | if you go scuba diving or snorkeling,

01:27:01.160 | it's like a kelp bed.

01:27:02.000 | You know, the Bay Area is like a kelp bed.

01:27:03.280 | Every once in a while, some big fish goes by.

01:27:05.040 | It's like a big IPO.

01:27:06.920 | But like most of the time, not a whole lot happens.

01:27:09.500 | Actually, the Bay Area, it's interesting,

01:27:10.920 | as I've been going back there more and more recently,

01:27:14.480 | there are really cool little subcultures

01:27:17.880 | starting to pop up again.

01:27:19.440 | - Nice.

01:27:20.280 | - There's incredible skateboarding.

01:27:22.440 | The GX1000 guys are these guys that bomb down hills.

01:27:26.000 | They're nuts.

01:27:27.320 | Like they're just going like--

01:27:29.400 | - So it's just speed, not tricks.

01:27:31.000 | - You gotta see GX1000.

01:27:32.240 | These guys going down hills in San Francisco.

01:27:34.600 | They are wild.

01:27:36.260 | And unfortunately, occasionally someone will get hit

01:27:38.360 | by a car, but GX1000, look, into intersections.

01:27:42.260 | They have spotters.

01:27:43.100 | You can see someone there.

01:27:44.400 | - Oh, I see.

01:27:46.920 | There's somebody looking out. - Into traffic.

01:27:48.640 | Yeah, into traffic.

01:27:50.080 | - In San Francisco.

01:27:50.900 | - Yeah, this is crazy.

01:27:51.740 | Like this is unbelievable.

01:27:53.000 | And they're just wild.

01:27:57.680 | But in any case.

01:27:59.500 | - What's on your bucket list that you haven't done?

01:28:01.640 | - Well, I'm working on a book.

01:28:02.720 | So I'm actually going to head to a cabin

01:28:06.160 | for a couple of weeks and write, which I've never done.

01:28:09.200 | People talk about doing this, but I'm gonna do that.

01:28:12.100 | I'm excited for that.

01:28:13.040 | Just the mental space of really dropping into writing.

01:28:15.400 | - Like Jack Nicholson in "The Shining" cabin?

01:28:17.480 | - Let's hope not.

01:28:18.600 | Let's hope not.

01:28:19.440 | You know, before, I mean, I only started doing

01:28:21.600 | public-facing anything, posting on Instagram in 2019,

01:28:24.320 | but I used to head up to Walla Walla

01:28:27.000 | on the northern coast of California,

01:28:29.400 | sometimes by myself, to a little cabin there

01:28:33.280 | and spend a weekend by myself and just read

01:28:36.600 | and write papers and things like that.

01:28:38.280 | I used to do that all the time.

01:28:40.480 | I miss that.

01:28:41.500 | So some of that, I'm trying to spend a bit more time

01:28:44.680 | with my relatives in Argentina,

01:28:46.240 | relatives on the East Coast, see my parents more.

01:28:50.080 | They're in good health, thankfully.

01:28:51.760 | I want to get married and have a family.

01:28:53.200 | That's an important priority.

01:28:54.840 | I'm putting a lot of work in there.

01:28:56.760 | - Yeah, that's a big one.

01:28:57.600 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, putting a lot of work

01:28:59.720 | into the runway on that.

01:29:02.200 | - What's your advice for people about that?

01:29:07.480 | Or give advice to yourself about how to find love

01:29:09.820 | in this world, how to build a family and get there.

01:29:14.400 | And then I'll listen to it someday

01:29:15.640 | and see if I hit the marks.

01:29:16.980 | Yeah, well, obviously pick the right partner,

01:29:20.400 | but also do the work on yourself.

01:29:22.520 | Know yourself, the oracle, know thyself.

01:29:26.400 | And I think, listen, I have a friend.

01:29:31.120 | He's a new friend, but he's a friend who I met for a meal.

01:29:36.120 | He's a very, very well-known actor overseas.

01:29:39.760 | And his stuff has made it over here and we become friends.

01:29:42.920 | And we went to lunch and we were talking about work

01:29:45.580 | and being public facing and all this kind of thing.

01:29:48.520 | And then I said, "You have kids, right?"

01:29:51.160 | And he says, "Yes, four kids."

01:29:52.240 | I was like, "Oh yeah, I see your post with the kids.

01:29:54.320 | "You seem really happy."

01:29:55.160 | And he said, he just looked at me, leaned in,

01:29:56.960 | and he said, "It's the best gift you'll ever give yourself."

01:30:01.960 | And he also said, "And pick your partner,

01:30:05.820 | "the mother of your kids, very carefully."

01:30:09.240 | So, you know, that's good advice coming from,

01:30:11.760 | excellent advice coming from somebody who's, you know,

01:30:14.200 | very successful in work and family.

01:30:16.560 | So that's the only thing I can pass along.

01:30:18.640 | We hear this from friends of ours as well,

01:30:20.480 | but kids are amazing and family's amazing.

01:30:24.360 | And, you know, that's the different people,

01:30:28.280 | all these people who wanna like be immortal

01:30:30.160 | and like live to be 200 or something, you know,

01:30:33.520 | there's also the old fashioned way of, you know,

01:30:36.240 | having children that live on and evolve a new legacy,

01:30:40.440 | but they have, you know, half your DNA.

01:30:42.560 | So that's exciting.

01:30:43.680 | - Yeah, I think you would make an amazing dad.

01:30:45.800 | - Thank you.

01:30:46.640 | - It seems like a fun thing.

01:30:48.000 | And, you know, I've also gotten advice from friends

01:30:50.200 | who are super high performing and have a lot of kids.

01:30:55.200 | They'll say, "Just don't overthink it.

01:30:57.880 | "Start having kids.

01:30:59.360 | "Let's go."

01:31:00.200 | - Right, well, the chaos of kids is kind of the,

01:31:02.240 | like it can either bury you or it can give you energy.

01:31:06.880 | But I grew up in a big pack of boys

01:31:08.800 | always doing like wild and crazy things.

01:31:10.600 | And so that kind of energy is great.

01:31:12.480 | And if it's not a big pack of wild boys,

01:31:14.440 | it's, you know, you have daughters

01:31:16.760 | and they can be, you know, different form of chaos,

01:31:19.040 | sometimes same form of chaos.

01:31:20.480 | - How many kids do you think you want?

01:31:22.760 | - Hmm, you know, it's either two or five.

01:31:27.120 | - Yeah.

01:31:29.640 | - Very different dynamics.

01:31:30.460 | You're one of two, right?

01:31:31.300 | - Yep.

01:31:32.140 | - Yeah.

01:31:32.960 | I mean, I'm very close with my sister.

01:31:34.980 | I couldn't imagine having another sibling

01:31:36.560 | 'cause there's so much richness there.

01:31:38.400 | We talk almost every day.

01:31:39.800 | Or, you know, three, four times a week, you know.

01:31:43.480 | Sometimes just briefly, but we're tight.

01:31:45.720 | You know, we're really look out for one another.

01:31:48.820 | She's an amazing person, like truly an amazing person.

01:31:53.360 | And has like raised her daughter in amazing ways.

01:31:56.600 | She's like, you know, my niece is like

01:31:59.800 | gonna head to college in a year or two.

01:32:01.240 | And like, my sister's done an amazing job.

01:32:03.280 | And her dad's done a great job too.

01:32:05.120 | They both really put a lot into the family aspect.

01:32:10.120 | - Had a chance to spend time with a really amazing person

01:32:13.120 | in Peru, in the Amazon jungle.

01:32:15.800 | And he is one of 20 kids.

01:32:18.400 | - Wow.

01:32:19.240 | - So he's got, it's mostly guys.

01:32:22.000 | So it's just a lot of brothers.

01:32:23.480 | And I think two sisters.

01:32:25.200 | - Wow.

01:32:26.040 | I just had Jonathan Haidt on the podcast,

01:32:27.720 | the guy who's talking about "Anxious Generation,"

01:32:29.240 | "Causaling the American Mind."

01:32:30.160 | He's great.

01:32:31.040 | But he was saying that, you know,

01:32:31.880 | in order to keep kids healthy,

01:32:33.160 | they need to not be on social media

01:32:35.200 | or have smartphones until they're 16.

01:32:37.880 | I've actually been thinking a lot

01:32:39.280 | about getting a bunch of friends

01:32:41.600 | onto neighboring properties.

01:32:43.080 | You know, everyone talks about this.

01:32:44.520 | Not creating a commune or anything like that.

01:32:46.380 | But I think he, I think Jonathan's right.

01:32:49.000 | We were more or less, our brain wiring does best

01:32:52.500 | when we are raised in small village type environments

01:32:56.040 | where kids can forage, the whole free range kids idea.

01:32:58.680 | And I grew up skateboarding and building forts

01:33:00.940 | and dirt clod wars and all that stuff.

01:33:03.320 | It would be so strange to have a childhood without that.

01:33:07.400 | - Yeah, and I think more and more,

01:33:10.840 | as we wake up to the negative aspects

01:33:13.000 | of the digital interaction,

01:33:14.360 | it will put more and more value to in-person interaction.

01:33:17.560 | So.

01:33:18.400 | - I mean, it's cool to see, for instance,

01:33:19.600 | kids in New York City.

01:33:21.320 | They're just kind of moving around the city

01:33:22.500 | with so much sense of agency.

01:33:23.800 | It's really, really cool.

01:33:25.000 | The suburbs, like where I grew up,

01:33:27.560 | like as soon as we could get out,

01:33:29.400 | take the 7F bus up to San Francisco

01:33:31.280 | and hang out with wild ones like that.

01:33:34.460 | While there were dangers, I mean,

01:33:35.900 | we couldn't wait to get out of the suburbs.

01:33:37.700 | The moment that forts and dirt clod wars

01:33:40.160 | and stuff didn't cut it,

01:33:41.700 | we just like wanted into the city.

01:33:43.100 | So, bucket list.

01:33:45.060 | I will probably move to a major city,

01:33:48.020 | not Los Angeles or San Francisco,

01:33:49.940 | in the next few years.

01:33:53.780 | New York City, potentially.

01:33:55.900 | - Those are all such different flavors of experiences.

01:33:58.420 | - Yeah.

01:33:59.260 | So, I'd love to live in New York City for a while.

01:34:01.260 | I've always wanted to do that, and I will do that.

01:34:03.660 | I've always wanted to also have a place

01:34:05.940 | in a very rural area.

01:34:08.100 | So, Colorado and Montana are high on my list right now.

01:34:11.580 | And to be able to pivot back and forth

01:34:13.780 | between the two would be great,

01:34:15.420 | just for such different experiences.

01:34:17.300 | And also, I like a very physical life.

01:34:19.140 | So, the idea of getting up with the sun

01:34:22.060 | in a Montana or Colorado type environment.

01:34:24.440 | And I've been putting some effort

01:34:28.460 | towards finding a spot for that.

01:34:31.980 | And New York City, to me, I know it's got its issues,

01:34:34.380 | and people say, "It wasn't what it was."

01:34:35.820 | Okay, I get it, but listen, I've never lived there,

01:34:37.820 | so for me, it'd be entirely new.

01:34:39.540 | And, you know, Schulz seems full of life.

01:34:43.980 | - There is an energy to that city, and he represents that.

01:34:46.780 | I mean, there's-- - Yeah.

01:34:48.140 | - And the full diversity of weird

01:34:50.860 | that is represented in New York City is great.

01:34:53.780 | - Yeah, you walk down the street,

01:34:54.620 | there's a person with a cat on their head,

01:34:56.140 | and no one gives a shit.

01:34:56.960 | - Yeah, that's great.

01:34:58.540 | - San Francisco used to be like that.

01:35:00.380 | The joke was like, you have to be naked and on fire

01:35:03.460 | in San Francisco before someone takes it,

01:35:04.800 | but now it's changed.

01:35:05.920 | But again, recently, I've noticed that San Francisco,

01:35:08.880 | it's not just about the skateboarders,

01:35:10.480 | there's some community houses of people in tech

01:35:13.740 | that are super interesting.

01:35:14.760 | There's some community housing of people not in tech

01:35:17.880 | that I've learned about and known people have lived there,

01:35:22.440 | and it's cool.

01:35:23.960 | Like, there's stuff happening.

01:35:26.440 | In these cities, that's new and different.

01:35:28.300 | I mean, that's what youth is for.

01:35:29.720 | They're supposed to evolve things out.

01:35:31.880 | - So amidst all that, you still have to get shit done.

01:35:36.720 | I've been really obsessed with tracking time recently,

01:35:40.520 | like making sure I have daily activities,

01:35:43.040 | I have habits that I'm maintaining,

01:35:45.840 | and I'm very religious about making sure I get shit done.

01:35:50.840 | - Do you use an app or something like that?

01:35:52.480 | - No, just Google Sheets.

01:35:54.280 | So basically a spreadsheet, and I'm tracking daily,

01:35:57.120 | and I write scripts that whenever I achieve a goal,

01:36:00.840 | it glows green.

01:36:03.180 | - Yeah, do you track your workouts

01:36:05.320 | and all that kind of stuff too?

01:36:06.880 | - No, just the fact that I got the workout done.

01:36:10.360 | So it's a checkmark thing.

01:36:12.000 | So I'm really, really big on making sure I do a thing.

01:36:16.880 | It doesn't matter how long it is.

01:36:18.320 | So I have a rule for myself that I do a set of tasks

01:36:22.900 | for at least five minutes every day.

01:36:24.760 | And it turns out that many of them I do way longer,

01:36:29.100 | but just even just doing it, I have to do it every day.

01:36:33.340 | And there's currently 11 of them.

01:36:36.540 | It's just a thing.

01:36:37.380 | Like one of them is playing guitar, for example.

01:36:39.740 | - So do you do that kind of stuff?

01:36:40.740 | Do you do like daily habits?

01:36:43.340 | - Yeah, I do.

01:36:44.540 | I wake up, if I don't feel I slept enough,

01:36:49.400 | I do this non-sleep deep rest yoga nidra thing

01:36:52.380 | that I've talked about a bunch.

01:36:53.220 | We actually released a few of those tracks

01:36:54.740 | as audio tracks on Spotify, 10 minute, 20 minute ones.

01:36:59.300 | Puts me back into a state that feels like sleep

01:37:02.060 | and I feel very rested.

01:37:03.060 | Actually, Matt Walker and I are gonna run a study.

01:37:04.860 | He's just submitted the IRB to run a study on NSDR

01:37:07.940 | and what it's actually doing to the brain.

01:37:09.780 | There's some evidence of increases in dopamine, et cetera,

01:37:12.340 | but those are older studies, still cool studies.

01:37:14.060 | But so I'll do that, get up, hydrate.

01:37:17.260 | And if I've got my act together, I punch some caffeine down.

01:37:22.400 | Like some Matina, some coffee, maybe another Matina

01:37:24.640 | and resistance train three days a week,

01:37:28.160 | run three days a week and then take one day off.

01:37:30.840 | And like to be done by 8.39.

01:37:34.080 | And then I wanna get into some real work.

01:37:35.880 | I actually have a sticky note on my computer.

01:37:38.960 | It's like, just like reminding me how good it feels

01:37:41.040 | to accomplish some real work.

01:37:42.120 | And then I go into it right now.

01:37:43.760 | It's the book writing, researching a podcast

01:37:46.480 | and just fight tooth and nail to stay off social media,

01:37:50.960 | text message, WhatsApp, YouTube, all that.

01:37:54.840 | Get something done.

01:37:55.760 | - How long can you go?

01:37:56.600 | Can you go like three hours, just deep focus?

01:38:01.120 | - If I hit a groove, yeah, 90 minutes to three hours

01:38:04.380 | if I'm really in a groove.

01:38:05.680 | - For me, I start the day actually.

01:38:09.720 | That's why I'm afraid I'd really prize that,

01:38:12.920 | those morning hours I start with the work.

01:38:15.720 | And it's, I'm trying to hit the four hour mark

01:38:21.200 | of deep focus.

01:38:22.180 | - Great, I love it.

01:38:23.440 | - Then often can't, I'm really, really big believer.

01:38:28.260 | It's often torture actually.

01:38:30.040 | It's really, really difficult.

01:38:31.080 | - Oh yeah, the agitation.

01:38:32.840 | But I've sat across the table from you a couple of years ago

01:38:36.460 | when I was out here in Austin doing some work

01:38:38.040 | and I was working on stuff.

01:38:39.160 | And I noticed you just like stare at your notebook sometimes

01:38:41.600 | just like pen at the same position

01:38:45.200 | and then you'll get back into it.

01:38:46.240 | Like there are those (indistinct)

01:38:48.000 | building that hydraulic pressure and then go.

01:38:50.620 | - Yeah, I try and get something done of value.

01:38:52.580 | Then the communications start

01:38:55.060 | and talking to my podcast producer, my team is everything.

01:38:59.040 | I mean, like the magic potion in the podcast is Rob Moore,

01:39:04.040 | right?

01:39:05.460 | Who's in the, has been in the room with me every single solo.

01:39:08.900 | Costello used to be in there with us, but that's it.

01:39:10.860 | People have asked, journalists have asked,

01:39:12.100 | can they sit in, friends have asked.

01:39:13.980 | Nope, just Rob.

01:39:16.300 | And for guests interviews, he's there as well.

01:39:20.240 | And I talk to Rob all the time, all the time.

01:39:23.260 | We talk multiple times per day.

01:39:25.300 | And in life, I've made some errors

01:39:29.180 | in certain relationship domains in my life

01:39:31.120 | in terms of partner choice and things like that.

01:39:32.860 | And certainly don't blame all of it on them,

01:39:35.540 | but I've played my role.

01:39:36.700 | But in terms of picking business partners and friends,

01:39:41.620 | like to work with, I mean, Rob's just, it's been bullseyes.

01:39:44.940 | And it's just Rob has been amazing.

01:39:46.820 | Mike Blayback, our photographer

01:39:48.060 | and the guys I mentioned earlier.

01:39:49.100 | Like we just communicate as much as we need to.

01:39:53.180 | And we pour over every decision like near neuroticism

01:39:56.820 | before we make, we put anything out there.

01:39:58.820 | And-

01:39:59.920 | - So including like even creative decisions

01:40:01.780 | of like topics to cover, all of that.

01:40:03.380 | - Yeah, like a photo for the book jacket the other day,

01:40:06.020 | Mike shoots photos.

01:40:06.980 | Then, and then we look at them, we pour over them together.

01:40:10.940 | Logo for the perform podcast with Andy Gallop.

01:40:13.060 | And then we're launching like, is that the right contour?

01:40:14.740 | Mike's the real, he's got the aesthetic thing.

01:40:17.060 | 'Cause he was at DC so long as a portrait photographer.

01:40:20.020 | And he's cute, he's close friends with Ken Block,

01:40:23.300 | to Jim Cona, like all the car jumping in the city stuff.

01:40:25.660 | Like, I mean, Mike is a master.

01:40:27.180 | He's a true master of that stuff.

01:40:29.660 | And we just pour over every little decision,

01:40:33.580 | but even which sponsors, you know,

01:40:35.700 | there are dozens of ads now.

01:40:37.280 | By the way, that whole Jawserciser thing of me saying,

01:40:40.140 | oh, a guy went from a two to a seven.

01:40:42.100 | I never said that, that's AI.

01:40:43.900 | Like I would never call it number off somebody,

01:40:45.780 | a two to a seven.

01:40:46.700 | Are you kidding me?

01:40:47.660 | It's crazy.

01:40:48.500 | So it was AI.

01:40:49.320 | If you bought the thing, I'm sorry.

01:40:50.940 | But like our sponsors, we list the sponsors that we have

01:40:53.580 | and why on our website.

01:40:55.020 | And like the decision, do we work with this person or not?

01:40:57.380 | Do we still like the product?

01:40:58.660 | I mean, we've got ways with sponsors

01:41:00.620 | 'cause of like changes in the product or, you know,

01:41:04.180 | most of the time it's amicable, all good.

01:41:06.600 | But you know, like just every detail.

01:41:08.640 | And that just takes a ton of time and energy.

01:41:11.080 | But I try and work mostly on content.

01:41:14.020 | And my team's constantly trying to keep me

01:41:15.420 | out of the other discussions 'cause I obsess.

01:41:20.020 | But yeah, you have to.

01:41:22.220 | You have to have a team of some sort,

01:41:23.740 | someone that you can run things by.

01:41:25.260 | - For sure.

01:41:26.100 | But one of the challenges, the larger the team is,

01:41:28.780 | and I'd like to be involved in a lot of different kinds

01:41:31.400 | of stuff, including engineering stuff, robotics work,

01:41:33.540 | research, all of those interactions, at least for me,

01:41:38.540 | take away from the deep work, the deep focus.

01:41:41.980 | Unfortunately, I get drained by social interaction,

01:41:45.540 | even with the people I love and really respect

01:41:47.540 | and all that kind of stuff.

01:41:48.660 | - You're an introvert.

01:41:49.540 | - Yeah, like fundamentally an introvert.

01:41:51.420 | So to me, it's a trade-off getting shit done

01:41:54.760 | versus collaborating.

01:41:57.100 | And I have to choose wisely because without collaboration,

01:41:59.480 | without a great team, which I'm fortunate enough

01:42:01.980 | to be a part of, like you wouldn't get anything really done.

01:42:04.980 | But as an individual contributor to get stuff done,

01:42:07.800 | like to do the hard work of researching or programming,

01:42:10.860 | all that kind of stuff, you need the hours of deep work.

01:42:14.020 | I used to spend a lot more time alone.

01:42:16.100 | That's on my bucket list, spend a bit more time

01:42:18.580 | dropped into work alone.

01:42:20.000 | I think social media causes our brain

01:42:24.380 | to go the other direction.

01:42:25.780 | I try and answer some comments and then get back to work.

01:42:29.420 | I'm really, after going to the jungle,

01:42:32.340 | I appreciate not using the device.

01:42:35.580 | I play with the idea of spending certainly,

01:42:39.980 | maybe like one week a month not using social media at all.

01:42:44.180 | - I used it, so after that morning block,

01:42:46.060 | I'll eat some lunch and I'll usually do something

01:42:47.980 | while I'm doing lunch or something and then a bit more work

01:42:50.860 | and that real work, deep work.

01:42:52.480 | And then around 2.30, I do a non-sleep deep rest,

01:42:56.320 | take a short nap, wake up, boom,

01:42:58.860 | maybe a little more caffeine and then lean into it again.

01:43:03.300 | And then I find if you really put in the deep work,

01:43:07.420 | two or three bouts per day by about five or 6 p.m.,

01:43:10.340 | it's over.

01:43:11.180 | I was down at Jocko's place not that long ago

01:43:13.380 | and in the evening did a sauna session with him

01:43:15.800 | and some family members of his and some of their friends.

01:43:19.300 | And it's really cool, like they'll work all day

01:43:21.300 | and train all day and then in the evening they get together

01:43:23.340 | and they sauna and cold plunge.

01:43:25.680 | I'm really into this whole thing of gathering

01:43:29.840 | with other people at a specific time of day.

01:43:32.900 | I have a gym at my house and Tim will come over and train

01:43:36.020 | or that we've kind of slowed that down in recent months.

01:43:40.140 | But I think gathering in groups once a day,

01:43:44.280 | being alone for part of the day,

01:43:45.780 | I mean, it's like very fundamental stuff.

01:43:47.300 | We're not saying anything that hasn't been said

01:43:48.980 | millions of times before,

01:43:50.020 | but how often do people actually do that?

01:43:52.380 | And call the party, be the person

01:43:55.060 | to bring people together if it's not happening.

01:43:56.980 | That's something I've really had to learn,

01:43:58.700 | even though I'm an introvert.

01:44:00.260 | Like, hey, I'm like, gather people together.

01:44:02.100 | You came through town the other day

01:44:03.740 | and there's a lot of people at the house, it was rad.

01:44:06.500 | Actually, it was funny 'cause I was getting a massage

01:44:08.300 | when you walked in.

01:44:09.220 | I don't sit around getting massages very often,

01:44:11.900 | but I was getting one that day and then everyone came in

01:44:14.220 | and the dog came in and like everyone was piled in.

01:44:16.300 | It was very sweet.

01:44:18.060 | - Again, no devices.

01:44:19.580 | But choose wisely the people you gather with.

01:44:23.220 | - Right, right, and I was clothed.

01:44:24.920 | - Thank you for clarifying.

01:44:27.260 | I wasn't, which is very weird.

01:44:32.060 | - Yeah, yeah, the friends you surround yourself with.

01:44:35.700 | That's another thing.

01:44:36.700 | It's like I understood that from ayahuasca

01:44:40.220 | and from just the experience in the jungle

01:44:41.780 | is like just select the people.

01:44:45.620 | Just be careful how you allocate your time.

01:44:47.480 | I just saw somewhere, Conor McGregor has this good line.

01:44:52.300 | I wrote it down about loyalty.

01:44:54.780 | He said, "Don't eat with people you wouldn't starve with."

01:44:57.780 | That guy's, I mean, he's big on loyalty.

01:45:01.380 | All the shit talk, all of that, set that aside.

01:45:04.660 | To me, like loyalty's really big.

01:45:06.780 | 'Cause then if you invest in certain people in your life

01:45:08.780 | and they stick by you and you stick by them,

01:45:11.020 | and what else is life about?

01:45:13.980 | - Yeah, well, hardship will show you

01:45:15.260 | who your real friends are, that's for sure.

01:45:17.920 | And we're fortunate to have a lot of them.

01:45:21.580 | It'll also show you who really has put in the time

01:45:26.160 | to try and understand you and understand people.

01:45:29.700 | Like people are complicated.

01:45:31.420 | I love that, so you can read the quote once more.

01:45:35.180 | "Don't eat with people you wouldn't starve with."

01:45:38.280 | Yeah, so in that way, a hardship is a gift.

01:45:43.900 | It shows you.

01:45:48.060 | - Definitely, and it makes you stronger.

01:45:50.420 | It definitely makes you stronger.

01:45:52.060 | - Let's go get some food.

01:45:55.160 | - Yeah, you're a one-meal-a-day guy.

01:45:57.020 | - Yeah.

01:45:57.860 | - I actually ate something earlier,

01:45:58.780 | but it was like a protein shake

01:46:00.180 | and a couple pieces of biltong.

01:46:02.260 | I hope we're eating a steak.

01:46:03.780 | - I hope so, too.

01:46:04.620 | I'm full of nicotine and caffeine.

01:46:06.880 | - Yeah, what do you think?

01:46:07.960 | How do you feel?

01:46:08.800 | - I feel good.

01:46:09.620 | - Yeah, I was thinking you'd probably,

01:46:11.540 | like I only did a half a piece,

01:46:13.420 | and I won't have more for a little while,

01:46:15.100 | but--

01:46:15.940 | - A little too good.

01:46:16.840 | - Yeah.

01:46:17.680 | - Thank you for talking once again, brother.

01:46:20.800 | - Yeah, thanks so much, Lex.

01:46:22.820 | It's been a great ride, this podcast thing,

01:46:24.780 | and you're the reason I started the podcast.

01:46:26.460 | You inspired me to do it, you told me to do it.

01:46:28.660 | You did it, and you've also been an amazing friend.

01:46:32.060 | You showed up in some very challenging times,

01:46:35.860 | and you've shown up for me publicly,

01:46:37.780 | you've shown up for me in my home, in my life,

01:46:41.140 | and it's an honor to have you as a friend.

01:46:46.000 | Thank you.

01:46:47.040 | I love you, brother.

01:46:47.880 | - Love you, too.

01:46:48.700 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:46:51.400 | with Andrew Huberman.

01:46:52.620 | To support this podcast,

01:46:53.740 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

01:46:56.300 | And now, let me leave you with some words

01:46:58.260 | from Carl Jung.

01:46:59.200 | Until you make the unconscious conscious,

01:47:02.340 | it will direct your life, and you will call it fate.

01:47:05.680 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

01:47:09.860 | (upbeat music)

01:47:12.440 | (upbeat music)

01:47:15.020 | you

01:47:17.080 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Andrew Huberman: Productivity, Controversy, Politics, and Relationships | Lex Fridman Podcast #435

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