Can We Speak with Angels?

00:00:00.000 | Welcome back to the Ask Pastor John podcast.

00:00:06.360 | Today we have an email from an anonymous listener.

00:00:08.760 | "Hello, Pastor John.

00:00:10.560 | All throughout the Bible we see angels speaking to believers.

00:00:13.620 | They speak sometimes in person and often in dreams.

00:00:17.740 | In that light, the worship pastor at my church recently mentioned to others that he had regular

00:00:23.460 | talks with one angel.

00:00:25.980 | I don't see that dynamic so evident in scripture of ongoing conversations between believers

00:00:31.980 | and angels themselves.

00:00:33.580 | It tends to be more of a monologue, mostly.

00:00:36.520 | Someone else in my church suggested the worship pastor is likely speaking to a demon.

00:00:42.160 | In APJ 1618, you address the ministry and purpose of angels today, but not how the angels

00:00:48.600 | interact with believers today.

00:00:51.400 | Do they?

00:00:52.480 | Are angels involved in our daily lives to this degree?

00:00:55.800 | Should we expect to hear from an angel, and would it even be possible to have an ongoing

00:01:01.800 | dialogue with an angel himself?

00:01:04.520 | And could a believer claiming to talk with angels actually be talking to a demon?"

00:01:09.400 | Yes, it is possible that a person who claims to be talking to an angel may be talking to

00:01:16.160 | a demon.

00:01:17.160 | The reason I say that is because the apostle Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11.14, "Even

00:01:28.360 | Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

00:01:33.200 | In other words, it's part of Satan's very nature that he's deceptive and would love

00:01:39.420 | to distract the saints at best and delude them and destroy them at worst by drawing

00:01:46.360 | off their focus from Christ to angels.

00:01:50.120 | It is also possible that a person who claims to be conversing with angels is simply conversing

00:01:57.440 | with images or voices in his own head that are not in fact either demons or angels.

00:02:04.480 | But my main concern with persons who claim to be conversing with an angel is not primarily

00:02:13.400 | that they are experiencing demons or hallucinations, but that they are being drawn away from Christ

00:02:22.380 | and his provision of all that we need in our communication with God and are getting help

00:02:29.820 | from God.

00:02:31.520 | So let me give four reasons from Scriptures why I think pursuing conversations with angels

00:02:40.980 | is a mistake.

00:02:42.880 | Number one, the Old Testament gives repeated warnings against turning away from the revelation

00:02:50.940 | of God revealed in Scripture through his appointed prophets to alternative means of communication

00:03:00.000 | with the supernatural.

00:03:01.800 | For example, Deuteronomy 18.10, "There shall not be found among you anyone who practices

00:03:10.940 | divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens or is a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium

00:03:22.000 | or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an

00:03:29.160 | abomination to the Lord."

00:03:33.200 | Now I know that angels are not listed in that group, but the question we should be asking

00:03:41.800 | is this, why is God so resistant to our seeking means of communication with the supernatural

00:03:52.120 | other than himself and his appointed means of discerning his will and his ways and his

00:03:57.840 | character through his Word, by his Spirit?

00:04:01.800 | The question is not simply whether that list in Deuteronomy is exhaustive.

00:04:06.360 | The question is, why is it even there?

00:04:08.840 | And there seem to be at least two answers in the Old Testament context for why it's

00:04:14.440 | there.

00:04:15.440 | One, seeking to communicate with the supernatural in these ways puts us in the category of pagan

00:04:22.960 | nations who are constantly groping around for some medium by which they can find absolute

00:04:29.880 | truth so as to make life worth living.

00:04:33.240 | This is considered an abomination by God because of how badly it reflects upon God and his

00:04:39.400 | having revealed himself to Israel in his appointed ways, which is the other reason why these

00:04:46.120 | mediums are considered an abomination.

00:04:49.280 | They don't just put us in the category of pagan nations, but they give the impression

00:04:54.600 | that God's not real, or that he's begrudging in telling us what we need, or that he's

00:05:01.280 | insufficient in himself to provide the truth we need to live by.

00:05:07.120 | So I would say that there is good indication in the Bible that we should be very, very

00:05:15.280 | cautious about seeking out ways of communicating with the supernatural that give the impression

00:05:23.320 | that God and his provision of Christ and prayer and his Word and Spirit are inadequate.

00:05:30.880 | Here's number two.

00:05:33.080 | I would point out that in all the epistles of the New Testament, which give us guidance

00:05:38.880 | for how the church is to live, there are no instances of ordinary Christians or apostles

00:05:45.600 | conversing with angels.

00:05:49.160 | I know that doesn't amount to a prohibition, but it certainly does amount to a caution

00:05:56.280 | and to an indication that such conversations are not essential for maturity in Christ.

00:06:05.240 | Indeed, they may be a sign of immaturity because it takes a certain measure of maturity to

00:06:12.760 | benefit fully from the beautiful paths of communication God has provided—in his Word,

00:06:19.240 | in prayer, by his Spirit.

00:06:22.040 | Third, listen to Colossians 2, 18 and 19.

00:06:27.760 | Let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail

00:06:36.040 | about visions, puffed up without reason by a sensuous mind, not holding fast to the head

00:06:44.760 | from whom the whole body nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments

00:06:48.800 | grows with the growth that is from God.

00:06:52.880 | Now, I can imagine that one person might respond to this text and say, "Nobody's talking,

00:06:58.640 | Piper, about worshipping angels, just conversing with them."

00:07:02.640 | Well, right.

00:07:03.640 | I know that.

00:07:04.800 | But here's the point of the text.

00:07:07.420 | When people begin to crave visions and to communicate with angels, something has gone

00:07:15.080 | wrong with the way they are holding fast to the head, Jesus Christ, and his all-sufficiency

00:07:23.060 | in nourishing the body of Christ, holding the body of Christ together, growing the body

00:07:29.280 | of Christ.

00:07:30.640 | Paul is concerned not simply with people who are worshipping angels, but they're replacing

00:07:38.680 | Jesus as the head, esteeming angels more significant than the paths of nourishment and strength

00:07:47.280 | and help and encouragement that God has appointed through the head, Jesus Christ.

00:07:53.360 | Now, the fourth pointer away from conversations with angels towards God simply builds on what

00:08:02.840 | I just said in number three, namely, that God has provided such a precious and sure

00:08:11.760 | and solid pathway to mercy and grace and help that it is an insult to him to act as though

00:08:21.520 | we need paths into the supernatural besides what he has taught in his Word.

00:08:27.240 | And I'm thinking here especially of Hebrews 4, 15 and 16, which go like this.

00:08:34.360 | "Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the

00:08:39.480 | Son of God.

00:08:40.480 | Let's hold fast to our confession, for we do not have a high priest who is unable to

00:08:46.280 | sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are

00:08:51.960 | yet without sin.

00:08:54.360 | Let us therefore," and that therefore means in view of this amazing high priest that we

00:08:59.200 | have, in view of his amazing capacities to sympathize with us, "therefore with confidence

00:09:06.340 | draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time

00:09:15.040 | of need."

00:09:16.680 | Now what the writer to the Hebrews is laboring to do here is help us feel the wonder and

00:09:24.680 | the solidity and the sufficiency of the way God has made mercy and grace available to

00:09:33.240 | us, namely, at the throne of grace, this God's throne, not angelic intermediaries.

00:09:42.560 | Through the finished work of the great high priest, Jesus Christ, in prayer, by faith,

00:09:49.080 | with the help of God's Spirit.

00:09:50.640 | So for those reasons, I would strongly discourage anyone from seeking to communicate with angels,

00:10:01.620 | and I would regard the claim that one does such a thing to be a mark not of maturity

00:10:10.340 | but of immaturity in thinking that something more glorious, more satisfying, more amazing,

00:10:20.320 | more helpful could be found through angel conversations than through the glory of God's

00:10:28.560 | Word and prayer by the Spirit in the fellowship of God's church.

00:10:35.360 | So good.

00:10:36.360 | Thank you, Pastor John.

00:10:37.360 | The word "the majesty of Christ" in the Word applies here and touches on several related

00:10:42.180 | topics too.

00:10:43.180 | It helps explain why Scripture forbids conversations with angels, of course, but also why the Bible

00:10:48.300 | forbids seances and necromancy and the use of mediums and fortune tellers and palm readers,

00:10:55.940 | not to mention why we don't need the next best-selling book from someone who claims

00:10:59.180 | to have died and gone to heaven before returning to earth to write a book to tell us all about

00:11:03.340 | it.

00:11:04.340 | You can find out more on all of these themes, these sort of packaged themes represented

00:11:08.540 | in this episode today, episode 1744 is this episode.

00:11:13.620 | You can also see in the archive APJs 302 and 1052, and you can find APJs 302 and 1052 in

00:11:21.380 | the APJ archive at DesiringGod.org/AskPastorJohn.

00:11:29.020 | We have another missions-themed episode coming up on Wednesday looking at how our joy in

00:11:33.220 | delighting God relates to how we serve the nations with the gospel.

00:11:38.460 | Super important connections here.

00:11:39.540 | I'm your host Tony Renke.

00:11:40.780 | We'll see you back here on Wednesday.

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Can We Speak with Angels?

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