Sean Carroll: Mindscape Podcast
00:00:00.000 | You, as we mentioned, have an amazing podcast called Mindscape.
00:00:05.720 | It's as I said, one of my favorite podcasts, sort of both for your explanation of physics,
00:00:14.160 | which a lot of people love, and when you venture out into things that are beyond your expertise.
00:00:20.960 | But it's just a really smart person exploring even questions like, you know, morality, for
00:00:28.400 | example.
00:00:29.400 | It was very interesting.
00:00:30.400 | I think you did a solo episode and so on.
00:00:32.400 | I mean, there's a lot of really interesting conversations that you have.
00:00:36.960 | What are some, from memory, amazing conversations that pop to mind that you've had?
00:00:45.160 | What did you learn from them?
00:00:46.780 | Something that maybe changed your mind or just inspired you or just this whole experience
00:00:51.340 | of having conversations, what stands out to you?
00:00:55.600 | It's an unfair question.
00:00:56.600 | It's totally unfair, but that's okay.
00:00:58.160 | That's all right.
00:00:59.160 | You know, it's often the ones, I feel like the ones I do on physics and closely related
00:01:04.440 | science or even philosophy ones are like, I know this stuff and I'm helping people learn
00:01:11.600 | about it, but I learn more from the ones that have nothing to do with physics or philosophy,
00:01:16.040 | right?
00:01:17.040 | So talking to Wynton Marsalis about jazz or talking to a master sommelier about wine,
00:01:22.680 | talking to Will Wilkinson about partisan polarization and the urban rural divide, talking to psychologists,
00:01:29.120 | like Carol Tavris about cognitive dissonance and how those things work.
00:01:36.760 | Scott Derrickson, who is the director of the movie, Dr. Strange.
00:01:40.240 | I had a wonderful conversation with him where we went through the mechanics of making a
00:01:44.160 | blockbuster superhero movie, right?
00:01:47.120 | And he's also not a naturalist.
00:01:49.520 | He's an evangelical Christian.
00:01:50.880 | So we talked about the nature of reality there.
00:01:53.480 | I want to have a couple more discussions with highly educated theists who know the theology
00:02:03.720 | really well, but I haven't quite arranged those yet.
00:02:06.600 | >>LUIS: I would love to hear that.
00:02:08.120 | I mean, that's how comfortable are you venturing into questions of religion?
00:02:12.840 | >>BEN: Oh, I'm totally comfortable doing it.
00:02:15.440 | I did talk with Alan Lightman, who is also an atheist, but he is trying to rescue the
00:02:21.920 | sort of spiritual side of things for atheism.
00:02:26.600 | I did talk to very vocal atheists like Alex Rosenberg.
00:02:31.960 | So I've talked to some religious believers, but I need to talk to more.
00:02:36.200 | >>LUIS: How have you changed through having all these conversations?
00:02:40.200 | >>BEN: You know, part of the motivation was I had a long stack of books that I hadn't
00:02:45.440 | read and I couldn't find time to read them.
00:02:47.160 | And I figured if I interviewed their authors, it forced me to read them, right?
00:02:50.280 | And that has totally worked, by the way.
00:02:52.560 | Now I'm annoyed that people write such long books.
00:02:56.160 | I think I'm still very much learning how to be a good interviewer.
00:02:59.880 | I think that's a skill.
00:03:02.480 | I think I have good questions, but there's the give and take that is still, I think I
00:03:08.560 | can be better at.
00:03:09.560 | I want to offer something to the conversation, but not too much, right?
00:03:13.240 | I've had conversations where I barely talked at all, and I've had conversations where I
00:03:16.480 | talked half the time, and I think there's a happy medium in between there.
00:03:19.080 | >>LUIS: So I think I remember listening to, without mentioning names, some of your conversations
00:03:24.200 | where I wish you would have disagreed more.
00:03:26.960 | As a listener, it's more fun sometimes.
00:03:30.760 | >>BEN: Well, that's a very good question because everyone has an attitude toward that.
00:03:35.800 | Some people are really there to basically give their point of view and their guest is
00:03:43.200 | supposed to respond accordingly.
00:03:45.960 | I want to get my view on the record, but I don't want to dwell on it when I'm talking
00:03:51.840 | to someone like David Chalmers, who I disagree with a lot.
00:03:54.640 | I want to say, "Here's why I disagree with you, but we're here to listen to you.
00:04:00.680 | I have an episode every week, and you're only on once a week."
00:04:04.480 | I have an upcoming podcast episode with Philip Goff, who is a much more dedicated panpsychist.
00:04:12.320 | There we really get into it.
00:04:13.600 | I probably have disagreed with him more on that episode than I ever have with another
00:04:17.840 | podcast guest, but that's what he wanted, so it worked very well.
00:04:20.760 | >>LUIS: Yeah, yeah.
00:04:21.760 | That kind of debate structure is beautiful when it's done right.
00:04:27.600 | When you can detect that the intent is that you have fundamental respect for the person,
00:04:34.080 | and that's, for some reason, it's super fun to listen to when two really smart people
00:04:39.520 | are just arguing and sometimes lose their shit a little bit, if I may say so.
00:04:43.120 | >>BEN: There's a fine line because I have zero interest in bringing ... Maybe you implied
00:04:50.840 | this.
00:04:51.840 | I have zero interest in bringing on people for whom I don't have any intellectual respect.
00:04:55.400 | I constantly get requests to bring on a flat earther or whatever and really slap them down,
00:05:00.320 | or a creationist.
00:05:01.320 | I have zero interest.
00:05:03.240 | I'm happy to bring on a religious person, a believer, but I want someone who's smart
00:05:07.680 | and can act in good faith and can talk, not a charlatan or a lunatic.
00:05:12.760 | I will happily bring on people with whom I disagree, but only people from whom I think
00:05:19.000 | the audience can learn something interesting.
00:05:20.600 | >>LUIS: Let me ask.
00:05:22.160 | The idea of charlatan is an interesting idea.
00:05:26.240 | You might be more educated on this topic than me, but there's folks, for example, who argue
00:05:35.040 | various aspects of evolution, try to approach and say that evolution, our current theory
00:05:44.040 | of evolution has many holes in it, has many flaws.
00:05:48.120 | They argue that, I think, Cambrian explosion, which is a huge added variability of species,
00:05:59.200 | doesn't make sense under our current description of evolution, theory of evolution.
00:06:04.560 | If you were to have the conversation with people like that, how do you know that the
00:06:11.920 | difference between outside the box thinkers and people who are fundamentally unscientific
00:06:21.120 | and even bordering on charlatans?
00:06:23.600 | >>JOE: That's a great question.
00:06:25.760 | The further you get away from my expertise, the harder it is for me to really judge exactly
00:06:30.520 | those things.
00:06:31.520 | Yeah, I don't have a satisfying answer for that one, because I think the example you
00:06:36.080 | use of someone who believes in the basic structure of natural selection, but thinks that this
00:06:42.640 | particular thing cannot be understood in terms of our current understanding of Darwinism,
00:06:48.760 | that's a perfect edge case where it's hard to tell.
00:06:53.120 | I would try to talk to people who I do respect and who do know things.
00:06:57.840 | Given that I'm a physicist, I know that physicists will sometimes be too dismissive of alternative
00:07:03.120 | points of view.
00:07:04.120 | I have to take into account that biologists can also be too dismissive of alternative
00:07:07.520 | points of view.
00:07:08.520 | So, yeah, that's a tricky one.
00:07:11.120 | >>COREY: Have you gotten heat yet?
00:07:12.360 | >>JOE: I get heat all the time.
00:07:13.600 | There's always something.
00:07:15.640 | It's hilarious, because I try very hard not to have the same topic several times in a
00:07:22.400 | row.
00:07:23.400 | I did have two climate change episodes, but they were from very different perspectives.
00:07:26.760 | But I like to mix it up.
00:07:27.760 | That's the whole point.
00:07:28.760 | That's why I'm having fun.
00:07:29.760 | Every time I do an episode, someone says, "Oh, the person you should really get on to
00:07:33.160 | talk about exactly that is this other person."
00:07:35.160 | I'm like, "But I did that now.
00:07:36.480 | I don't want to do that anymore."
00:07:39.480 | >>COREY: Well, I hope you keep doing it.
00:07:41.320 | You're inspiring millions of people with your books, your podcasts.
00:07:44.520 | Sean, it's an honor to talk to you.
00:07:46.680 | Thank you so much.
00:07:47.680 | >>JOE: Thanks very much, Lex.
00:07:48.440 | [END]
00:07:50.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:51.440 | [END]
00:07:51.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:52.440 | [END]
00:07:52.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:53.440 | [END]
00:07:53.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:54.440 | [END]
00:07:54.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:55.440 | [END]
00:07:55.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:56.440 | [END]
00:07:57.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:58.440 | [END]
00:07:58.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:07:59.440 | [END]
00:08:00.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:08:01.440 | [END]
00:08:01.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:08:02.440 | [END]
00:08:02.440 | >>Lex: Thank you.
00:08:03.440 | [END]
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