Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds

00:00:00.000 | - Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:00:02.280 | where we discuss science and science-based tools

00:00:04.880 | for everyday life.

00:00:05.900 | I'm Andrew Huberman,

00:00:10.400 | and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

00:00:13.520 | at Stanford School of Medicine.

00:00:15.740 | My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy.

00:00:18.440 | Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist

00:00:20.960 | specializing in parent-child relationships.

00:00:24.200 | She received her degrees and did her training

00:00:26.480 | at Duke University and Columbia University in New York.

00:00:30.080 | She is the author of the bestselling book, "Good Inside,"

00:00:33.120 | a guide to becoming the parent you want to be.

00:00:35.700 | She is also the founder and creator

00:00:37.120 | of an online learning platform, also called Good Inside,

00:00:40.800 | at which parents and parents-to-be

00:00:43.360 | can learn the best possible parenting skills

00:00:45.960 | that are grounded in the fields of clinical psychology,

00:00:48.340 | that have been proven to work in the real world,

00:00:50.760 | and that can allow people to navigate common sticking points

00:00:53.800 | in parent-child relationships.

00:00:55.800 | During today's discussion,

00:00:56.860 | you will learn a tremendous amount of actionable knowledge

00:00:59.920 | about what it is to be a good parent.

00:01:02.520 | This is a conversation that pertains not just to parents

00:01:05.240 | and parents-to-be, but also uncles, aunts, grandparents,

00:01:08.680 | and also those of you not planning to

00:01:11.360 | or who do not want children.

00:01:13.600 | I say that because while everything we discussed today

00:01:16.400 | is grounded in the discussion

00:01:18.000 | around parent-child relationships,

00:01:19.920 | it indeed pertains to all of us

00:01:21.880 | and relationships of all kinds,

00:01:23.600 | including romantic relationships, friendships,

00:01:25.960 | workplace relationships, and our relationship to self.

00:01:29.560 | Dr. Kennedy defines for us and makes clear and actionable

00:01:32.920 | what the exact job of good parenting is

00:01:36.320 | and how that relates to other relationships

00:01:38.420 | that we might have.

00:01:39.540 | She explains how to set healthy boundaries,

00:01:41.560 | and in fact, defines exactly what healthy boundaries are.

00:01:44.560 | There's a lot of misconception about that.

00:01:46.600 | We also talk a lot about empathy

00:01:48.480 | and the need to make children and ourselves feel safe

00:01:51.720 | in all kinds of relating.

00:01:53.120 | We discuss how to navigate disagreements and arguments,

00:01:56.280 | apologies and punishments, reward, and on and on,

00:02:00.040 | all framed within a real-world, real-time context.

00:02:03.240 | What I mean by that, and what I think really sets apart

00:02:05.800 | Dr. Becky Kennedy's work from so much else

00:02:08.360 | that you'll see out there on parent-child

00:02:10.040 | and other types of relationships,

00:02:11.560 | is that she makes what to do and say

00:02:13.760 | and what not to do and say

00:02:15.840 | in a variety of real-world contexts very clear,

00:02:18.920 | such that you can access that knowledge

00:02:21.040 | and do those specific things and avoid those specific things

00:02:24.240 | even when things get tense.

00:02:26.280 | In fact, especially when things get difficult or tense.

00:02:29.760 | By the end of today's episode,

00:02:30.880 | you will have learned a dozen or more

00:02:33.160 | very potent clinically-backed tools

00:02:36.260 | to navigate parent-child relating,

00:02:38.380 | including your relationship to your own parents,

00:02:41.020 | alive or dead, and your relationship to self.

00:02:44.240 | Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

00:02:47.080 | is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

00:02:49.800 | It is, however, part of my desire and effort

00:02:51.940 | to bring zero cost to consumer information

00:02:53.840 | about science and science-related tools

00:02:55.860 | to the general public.

00:02:57.320 | In keeping with that theme,

00:02:58.440 | I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

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00:07:32.520 | And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

00:07:35.880 | Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome.

00:07:38.340 | - Thank you, so excited to be here.

00:07:40.720 | I have a lot of questions for you.

00:07:42.400 | And as I mentioned in my introduction,

00:07:44.680 | much of what we are going to discuss today

00:07:46.960 | relates to parent-child relating,

00:07:50.460 | but pertains to relationships generally.

00:07:53.600 | So people with children, without children,

00:07:55.680 | who don't want children,

00:07:56.940 | hopefully there aren't people that hate children,

00:07:59.480 | but for all people out there with children or not,

00:08:04.140 | planning them or not,

00:08:05.200 | relationships are really just fundamental to who we are.

00:08:09.180 | And I actually place relationships,

00:08:11.340 | including relationship to self,

00:08:13.420 | in what we now think of as the six pillars

00:08:16.240 | of mental health, physical health, and performance,

00:08:19.280 | sleep, nutrition, exercise,

00:08:20.900 | relationships clearly vital to all aspects of life.

00:08:24.760 | So I'd like to start off by just asking for all of us,

00:08:29.760 | are there some simple or perhaps not so simple questions

00:08:33.600 | that we can reflect on that give us a sense

00:08:36.640 | of how good a parent we are or would be

00:08:40.900 | based on, I don't know,

00:08:43.380 | our previous parent-child relationships,

00:08:46.180 | our relationship to self.

00:08:47.960 | What kind of things come to bear

00:08:50.740 | when we think about really healthy relationships?

00:08:54.120 | I can start rattling off a list

00:08:56.000 | of what I imagine they could be,

00:08:58.740 | but what are your thoughts?

00:09:00.120 | What's the parameter space, as we say?

00:09:03.700 | How should we think about relationships besides just,

00:09:05.960 | oh, I either like this person or don't,

00:09:07.760 | or I feel good around them or I don't,

00:09:09.240 | or separating how I feel about them

00:09:11.300 | versus how they make me feel.

00:09:12.920 | Maybe we can drill a little deeper

00:09:15.320 | below the kind of more superficial stuff

00:09:18.480 | that we often see out there.

00:09:20.120 | - The first thing that comes to mind when you say that

00:09:21.880 | is this word sturdiness.

00:09:24.000 | And to me, when someone says,

00:09:25.560 | what is good inside as an approach?

00:09:26.960 | And that's always the first word that comes to mind.

00:09:29.120 | And I know that's an odd word.

00:09:30.120 | It's not a word we use a lot.

00:09:31.360 | Although I do think most people,

00:09:32.380 | when you say that person's a really sturdy person,

00:09:34.720 | I think we all have some connotation or feeling,

00:09:36.680 | at least, of what that means.

00:09:37.920 | And I use it a lot, being a sturdy parent,

00:09:40.080 | being a sturdy leader.

00:09:41.080 | I talk a lot about the similarities to parenting

00:09:43.460 | and kind of being a pilot of a plane.

00:09:45.840 | And that word sturdy always comes up.

00:09:47.640 | And so I remember a little while ago,

00:09:48.920 | someone pushed me, they're like,

00:09:49.760 | what's your definition of what that means?

00:09:51.560 | And at that point, I thought, wow,

00:09:52.480 | I should probably have a definition given I use it a lot.

00:09:55.240 | But what I think it really means is inability

00:09:58.780 | to be connected to yourself

00:10:00.660 | and to someone else at the same time.

00:10:03.160 | And I think that is really the definition

00:10:05.680 | of sturdy leadership.

00:10:06.760 | And that is the key thing that's present

00:10:08.520 | in a healthy relationship.

00:10:09.920 | That at once, I kind of know my values,

00:10:14.200 | what I want, what I need.

00:10:15.840 | I feel like I can be true to that.

00:10:17.560 | And at the same time, I can kind of connect to someone else

00:10:23.160 | who probably has different wants and needs

00:10:25.560 | and maybe even slightly different values at the same time.

00:10:27.920 | And the thing that leads me to next

00:10:30.480 | is what I think about is like family jobs and a parent job.

00:10:35.480 | So in almost any other place, you could assume

00:10:41.080 | if I'm getting a new job at this company,

00:10:43.160 | like there's just no way I could do my job well

00:10:46.140 | if I don't know what my job is, right?

00:10:48.480 | If you go to your desk and your boss is like,

00:10:49.960 | have a good day, do a good job,

00:10:51.360 | and there's no job description,

00:10:52.500 | you'd be like, I think that's impossible.

00:10:54.960 | But over and over with parents, if I say to them,

00:10:57.520 | well, what is your job with your kid?

00:10:59.740 | Or when your kid is having a tantrum or they hit

00:11:01.560 | or they're rude or they lie to your face or anything,

00:11:03.480 | what is your job in that moment?

00:11:05.600 | Most people, very well-intentioned, educated people

00:11:08.640 | who would never, ever take a job

00:11:10.220 | if they didn't have a job description,

00:11:12.000 | they look at me, they're like, I have no idea.

00:11:15.240 | So how can we do it well?

00:11:16.680 | How can we then perform it to a place

00:11:18.440 | to get to the outcomes we want

00:11:19.880 | if you don't have the foundation of what your job is?

00:11:21.980 | And to me, I thought a lot about it.

00:11:23.840 | I think parents actually have two jobs

00:11:25.460 | and it relates to sturdiness, so you'll connect it.

00:11:28.200 | Where one of our jobs is boundaries.

00:11:32.880 | And to me, boundaries are things we tell people we will do

00:11:37.880 | and they require the other person to do nothing.

00:11:41.800 | And that's like really important.

00:11:43.220 | 'Cause a lot of times we think we're setting a boundary

00:11:46.320 | when actually we're making a request.

00:11:48.480 | And boundaries keep us connected to ourselves.

00:11:51.640 | They represent our values and our wants and our needs.

00:11:55.380 | And in a parent-child relationship,

00:11:56.700 | they also keep our kids safe.

00:11:58.820 | If I just know in a simple way,

00:12:01.140 | like my kids watched enough TV today

00:12:02.940 | and they really have to get to bed.

00:12:04.240 | And I know that, like, I don't want them to stay up late.

00:12:07.080 | I kind of know what my family needs.

00:12:09.300 | I have to set a boundary.

00:12:11.200 | But the other part of my job is empathy and validation,

00:12:15.540 | which is a way of connecting to someone else

00:12:17.480 | where you see someone else's feelings

00:12:20.600 | and experience as real.

00:12:22.020 | You don't agree with it, probably.

00:12:24.340 | You don't necessarily condone the behavior.

00:12:28.540 | That's the representation of the feelings.

00:12:30.600 | But the feelings themselves, you need to connect to.

00:12:33.660 | And I feel like those are our two jobs as parents.

00:12:35.680 | And that's really the way to be a sturdy leader

00:12:37.740 | and to be in a sturdy, healthy relationship with your kids.

00:12:41.340 | - Wow.

00:12:42.460 | So much there and I love it.

00:12:45.160 | And here's one of the reasons I love it.

00:12:47.600 | This notion of sturdiness,

00:12:49.300 | something that I don't think we hear enough about.

00:12:52.820 | We hear about resilience, grit, also important terms.

00:12:56.760 | But sturdiness, as you've described it,

00:13:01.300 | and the job of parenting really seems

00:13:05.060 | to include a lot of verbs, not just nouns and adjectives.

00:13:10.060 | And I'm a huge fan of verbs because biology

00:13:13.740 | and to some extent psychology, yes, also psychology,

00:13:17.540 | is all about verbs.

00:13:18.620 | And so the labels often are mysterious,

00:13:22.560 | but sturdiness just sends a clear message

00:13:25.620 | of something that doesn't budge easily.

00:13:29.380 | But then as you described the job

00:13:30.880 | of being a parent having boundaries,

00:13:32.760 | and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more

00:13:34.500 | how you view boundaries, but also empathy.

00:13:37.540 | It's not a walled off picture.

00:13:40.760 | It's one that is semi-permeable.

00:13:43.420 | Also, and I confess I'm a bit obsessed

00:13:46.700 | with old school psychoanalytic theory,

00:13:49.380 | not as the be all end all of psychology,

00:13:52.320 | but it also suggests like this other relationship.

00:13:57.320 | Like I'm a person, I have a self,

00:13:59.740 | you're a person, you have a self.

00:14:01.540 | This is the opposite of codependency

00:14:03.580 | where obviously dependency

00:14:05.860 | and two people being quote unquote codependent

00:14:07.820 | can be healthy in the context of relying on one another.

00:14:10.620 | But as I understand it, when one person has a self

00:14:14.120 | and another person doesn't have a self,

00:14:15.540 | or this notion of merging,

00:14:17.300 | not just in romantic relationships,

00:14:18.980 | but child-parent relationships,

00:14:21.900 | I'm best friends with my mom or dad.

00:14:23.980 | Is that a good thing?

00:14:25.040 | I don't know.

00:14:25.880 | But this notion of other other relationships,

00:14:28.040 | it's like I'm a self, you're a self,

00:14:30.320 | and we each see each other as another.

00:14:32.960 | Anyway, I think there's so much to explore here, so valuable.

00:14:38.320 | You mentioned that boundaries are something that we do

00:14:41.560 | and that requires that the other do nothing.

00:14:45.220 | Can we go a little bit further into that?

00:14:46.480 | Because it's a beautiful concept

00:14:49.040 | and this notion of boundaries,

00:14:51.720 | but like a gaslighting narcissism

00:14:53.740 | and all the other things that we hear about nowadays,

00:14:55.400 | I think is often badly misunderstood.

00:14:58.060 | So tell us more about boundaries

00:15:00.540 | and how that looks in the action sense of it.

00:15:04.300 | - And this is all so connected to what you're saying,

00:15:06.040 | that other other relationship.

00:15:07.500 | I'm a person, you're a person.

00:15:08.920 | And so many times that's actually is what gets merged.

00:15:11.600 | And so my kid gets upset that I say

00:15:14.740 | they can't watch another show.

00:15:16.740 | And a parent really in that moment,

00:15:19.040 | it's like whose feelings are whose?

00:15:21.440 | They were upset, was I was upset?

00:15:22.880 | A second ago, I thought I should set the boundary.

00:15:25.020 | And now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind.

00:15:26.600 | There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger,

00:15:30.480 | which is one of the main reasons

00:15:32.260 | that kids get actually really scared

00:15:33.680 | and escalate their behavior

00:15:34.760 | 'cause they don't have a sturdy leader

00:15:35.800 | when they really need one, right?

00:15:36.960 | So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do

00:15:39.960 | and they require the other person to do nothing.

00:15:41.920 | I like this definition for a lot of reasons.

00:15:43.560 | I'm just very practical.

00:15:44.560 | So it allows me after I set a boundary to like assess,

00:15:47.800 | was that a boundary or not, right?

00:15:49.840 | Because let's take the TV example.

00:15:54.120 | It's whatever time at night,

00:15:55.320 | my kid has just watched a show

00:15:56.960 | and they know they're supposed to watch one show

00:15:58.560 | and then turn off the TV.

00:16:00.660 | I hear from parents a lot, my kid doesn't listen

00:16:04.340 | or my kid doesn't respect my boundaries.

00:16:06.280 | And I'll say, okay, that sounds hard, let's get into that.

00:16:08.720 | So then I'll say, so I told my kid to shut off the TV.

00:16:11.440 | They just kept watching, they just kept on.

00:16:14.440 | I told my kid to stop jumping on the couch

00:16:16.720 | and they kept jumping.

00:16:18.200 | They don't respect my boundaries, they don't listen.

00:16:20.800 | To me, this is like a beautiful example

00:16:22.800 | of like this is a problem, I agree,

00:16:25.360 | but this is not a boundary problem.

00:16:27.400 | You made a request of your child.

00:16:29.980 | And frankly, if you have your,

00:16:31.680 | I'm making this up, seven-year-old watching TV,

00:16:33.480 | I'm not so good at putting away TV and a phone at night.

00:16:36.320 | Like it's just hard for me to do.

00:16:37.660 | So your seven-year-old probably is just addicted

00:16:40.080 | to what's ever happening.

00:16:41.280 | And we're kind of asking our kid to do our job for us

00:16:45.020 | because we don't want our kid to be mad at us

00:16:46.540 | or whatever it is.

00:16:47.680 | A boundary in that situation would be saying,

00:16:50.760 | oh, you didn't put off the TV.

00:16:52.180 | Look, by the time I get over there,

00:16:54.040 | if you haven't turned off the TV,

00:16:55.800 | and I don't wanna do this, but I will,

00:16:57.480 | I will take the remote out of your hand and shut it off.

00:17:00.740 | A boundary is saying, oh, after my request doesn't work,

00:17:04.140 | can you get off the couch, you can jump on the floor.

00:17:06.280 | Look, if by the time I get over there,

00:17:07.620 | you haven't gotten off the couch, I will pick you up.

00:17:11.320 | That is, I always say, I'm not gonna put the success

00:17:13.940 | of my intervention in my like seven-year-old's hand.

00:17:16.640 | I care too much about my own needs and my own role

00:17:19.960 | as a leader in my home to do that, right?

00:17:22.960 | Same thing with, let's say, in-laws.

00:17:25.000 | My mother-in-law doesn't respect my boundary.

00:17:26.640 | She always shows up without calling.

00:17:29.360 | Now, I don't wanna get to this point,

00:17:30.520 | and there's a lot of things in a relationship

00:17:32.000 | we can do before we get to this point,

00:17:33.880 | but if that's really a boundary,

00:17:35.560 | and I have a very kind of intrusive mother-in-law,

00:17:38.520 | a boundary would be saying, look,

00:17:39.960 | this is gonna be awkward, and I know you mean well,

00:17:42.140 | but the next time you come unannounced,

00:17:45.480 | I will come to your car and say,

00:17:47.400 | oh, this time doesn't work for us.

00:17:49.520 | You cannot come in, and I will go back into my house

00:17:52.660 | and close the door.

00:17:54.080 | Like, now, there's gonna be lots of feelings around that,

00:17:56.400 | but you are now setting a true boundary,

00:18:00.840 | and when we say our kids don't listen,

00:18:03.380 | those are often situations, not all of them,

00:18:06.640 | but there's a big percentage where I'm actually not setting

00:18:10.040 | a boundary early enough and in a sturdy enough way,

00:18:14.560 | which is what my kid needs, because at that point,

00:18:18.000 | they simply don't have the skills to inhibit and urge,

00:18:21.440 | and they need me to be the boundary for them.

00:18:25.040 | - We hear sometimes that kids are craving rules.

00:18:29.440 | They're craving boundaries.

00:18:31.000 | I don't know, I was kind of a wild adolescent and teenager,

00:18:35.040 | maybe a little more than wild.

00:18:37.920 | I don't recall ever craving rules,

00:18:40.500 | but I do recall paying attention

00:18:42.600 | to their lack of presence.

00:18:45.080 | So what of that?

00:18:48.160 | Is this notion that kids really want

00:18:51.080 | and crave rules and boundaries,

00:18:52.400 | is that sort of, I don't know,

00:18:56.240 | projection that we put onto them?

00:18:58.460 | And I'm not exploring this just for fun.

00:19:00.720 | I'm exploring it because I think that one thing

00:19:03.240 | that's very helpful in setting boundaries,

00:19:05.280 | especially with kids, is the idea that, gosh,

00:19:08.460 | even if it's a bit painful to see them in discomfort,

00:19:12.000 | there's that empathy piece that you talked about before,

00:19:14.160 | that empathic attunement

00:19:16.600 | can get in the way of boundaries.

00:19:19.800 | They're not mutually exclusive,

00:19:21.100 | but these are somewhat competing forces at times.

00:19:25.120 | So if we know, or if we can acknowledge,

00:19:28.260 | or at least explore this idea

00:19:29.560 | that rules are deep down what they really want,

00:19:32.560 | not just what they need, maybe it would help.

00:19:35.800 | - Yes, and I think, by the way,

00:19:37.360 | in my taking the remote away,

00:19:39.800 | or taking my kid off the couch, just to be clear,

00:19:42.360 | if I do that to my kid, they are not gonna say,

00:19:44.840 | "Oh, mom, you are the best mom in the world, thank you."

00:19:47.120 | They are gonna cry and scream.

00:19:48.720 | And that's where boundaries and empathy,

00:19:50.740 | those two parts of our job, actually do always go together.

00:19:53.240 | I think they're actually partners.

00:19:54.440 | They're not actually at odds,

00:19:55.640 | because as soon as my kid is upset,

00:19:57.120 | what I would say to them is,

00:19:59.160 | "Oh, he wanted to jump on the couch.

00:20:01.160 | "It's not as much fun on the floor.

00:20:02.420 | "Oh, he really wanted to watch another show.

00:20:04.580 | "You didn't even want it this big.

00:20:06.060 | "You wanted to watch it this big."

00:20:08.280 | It sounds crazy 'cause you're like,

00:20:09.220 | "Wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling?"

00:20:11.020 | They just kind of disobeyed.

00:20:12.280 | No, they're two different things.

00:20:13.320 | I'm doing my job and setting a boundary.

00:20:15.320 | They're actually doing their job

00:20:16.480 | and feeling their feelings.

00:20:17.600 | That's actually their job.

00:20:18.740 | The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling

00:20:22.640 | is through feeling the feeling.

00:20:24.400 | So they're doing their job.

00:20:26.100 | Now I'm gonna validate.

00:20:27.240 | And this is how kids learn emotion regulation.

00:20:29.280 | Boundaries, they feel, I validate,

00:20:31.200 | I hold the boundary over and over and over.

00:20:33.960 | So do kids crave rules?

00:20:35.920 | And I think one of the issues

00:20:37.840 | is that most parenting approaches have one or the other.

00:20:40.500 | And I think they're both very incomplete strategies.

00:20:43.300 | If you just lead with rules, right?

00:20:45.940 | I don't know who said it, definitely wasn't me.

00:20:47.380 | Like, what is it?

00:20:48.220 | Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.

00:20:50.300 | Yeah, that's what happens, right?

00:20:51.760 | So that's not good.

00:20:53.320 | But I see the stainage, we've swung the other direction.

00:20:56.620 | It is also not a complete parenting strategy

00:20:59.040 | when your kid's jumping on the couch to do nothing

00:21:01.220 | if you think that's dangerous and to say,

00:21:03.060 | "Oh, you really wanna jump, jump, jump

00:21:05.380 | "and such big feelings."

00:21:06.660 | Like that's not what kids need.

00:21:09.300 | I think kids crave boundaries

00:21:11.640 | and they crave feeling seen and understood.

00:21:14.300 | Because as kids are growing up,

00:21:16.720 | like I think the questions they're always asking parents,

00:21:19.640 | even though of course they never say this,

00:21:21.340 | it's just, am I real and am I safe?

00:21:25.220 | Every interaction, that's what they're asking us.

00:21:27.380 | The reason we have to validate their feelings

00:21:29.880 | when they're upset, even though they're so upset

00:21:31.720 | just that their string cheese broke, whatever it is,

00:21:34.580 | is feelings don't have markers like blood

00:21:36.980 | or like they don't know.

00:21:38.340 | And so when we say, "Oh, you wanted your string cheese

00:21:40.540 | "to be together," what we're really saying

00:21:43.240 | is the things you experience inside of you are real.

00:21:48.240 | But kids are also desperate to know like,

00:21:50.500 | how far do things go?

00:21:51.980 | No one likes to feel boundary-less as a kid.

00:21:53.860 | That's terrifying, right?

00:21:55.820 | And so when we set a boundary, we actually say to a kid,

00:22:00.340 | like, "I will always protect you.

00:22:02.640 | "Like, I won't let things get so far out of control."

00:22:06.160 | So I do think, I don't know if it's rules,

00:22:08.380 | but kids crave connection.

00:22:11.080 | And I think boundaries and kind of validation and empathy,

00:22:15.000 | they are the two forms of connection

00:22:17.120 | that kids, yeah, are really desperate for.

00:22:19.260 | - What about rewarding kids?

00:22:23.600 | And here, rather than start off by asking,

00:22:27.080 | what are the best ways to reward kids and healthy ways?

00:22:29.240 | I will ask that in a moment.

00:22:32.080 | How can we evaluate the notion of rewards or incentives

00:22:37.080 | through this lens of sturdiness, boundaries, and empathy?

00:22:43.940 | - Yeah.

00:22:45.140 | - Because I could imagine a reward that's outsized

00:22:50.140 | in comparison to what a kid did.

00:22:52.600 | Okay, great, you took your plate

00:22:54.320 | to the kitchen sink after dinner.

00:22:56.640 | You get $10,000, obviously, out of scale, extreme example,

00:23:01.100 | but just by way of example,

00:23:02.980 | screw up their reward mechanisms for life, if you ask me,

00:23:09.120 | that everything I know about reward in neuroplasticity says

00:23:11.740 | that that would occur.

00:23:13.040 | But this idea that you can incentivize kids,

00:23:15.820 | if you turn off the TV now,

00:23:18.500 | then you definitely can watch tomorrow night.

00:23:21.760 | Whereas if you don't, you can't.

00:23:23.360 | So you're sort of merging reward and potential punishment.

00:23:29.440 | How do we bound rewards?

00:23:31.480 | And how do we take into account

00:23:34.700 | that when we start adding rewards to scenarios

00:23:37.100 | that we're mixing and matching life experience for them?

00:23:41.520 | Okay, so now doing what I'm told,

00:23:43.600 | do I always expect a reward?

00:23:45.940 | If the reward doesn't come next time,

00:23:48.940 | we know based on reward prediction error,

00:23:50.680 | we tend to be worse off emotionally

00:23:52.860 | than had we never received a reward in the first place.

00:23:54.960 | Again, pretty vast parameter space,

00:23:57.000 | but what are your thoughts on best ways

00:23:58.740 | to reward kids for standard good behavior

00:24:02.760 | versus achievement versus elimination of bad behavior?

00:24:07.760 | So three categories.

00:24:09.780 | - I think you're asking a much bigger question,

00:24:12.900 | Ramana, I think you are,

00:24:14.660 | which is like, why do parents think we need to reward kids?

00:24:19.660 | I think that's, why do we think we need to punish kids?

00:24:22.480 | And this is actually where everything I work on started from

00:24:25.240 | because the way I was trained to work with parents,

00:24:27.680 | I went to the best gold standard evidence-based program,

00:24:31.240 | and it was all about timeouts and punishments

00:24:33.580 | and rewards and stickers and ignoring and praise,

00:24:36.340 | and honestly, during the training for the years

00:24:40.460 | after I kind of practiced this way,

00:24:42.600 | I feel like that, you know this better than I am,

00:24:44.620 | so I shouldn't even say this,

00:24:45.540 | but like that left part of my brain,

00:24:46.940 | like logic and linearity, I was just like, this is amazing.

00:24:49.820 | Oh my goodness, we're gonna get more of the good behavior

00:24:51.760 | and we're gonna not get the bad behavior.

00:24:53.920 | And I'd start teaching this

00:24:56.080 | to parents in my private practice,

00:24:57.780 | and there was this little thing in me,

00:25:00.620 | I don't even know, I was like, I don't know about this.

00:25:03.460 | I don't know, and it get louder and louder

00:25:06.180 | to the point that in a session,

00:25:07.220 | I literally said to a parent in front of me,

00:25:11.900 | I was just like telling them how to do a timeout,

00:25:13.820 | and I said, I'm sorry,

00:25:14.660 | I don't believe anything I've been telling you.

00:25:16.620 | That's literally what I said,

00:25:17.740 | 'cause I just, it was so loud,

00:25:19.120 | and it was obviously super awkward,

00:25:21.900 | but it led me to, I feel like

00:25:24.300 | from this first principles way,

00:25:25.600 | be like, there are a million assumptions

00:25:27.500 | that we have about raising kids,

00:25:29.300 | and I think about relationships,

00:25:30.600 | and if I just strip them back,

00:25:31.780 | what do I be left with,

00:25:32.700 | and what would be a new building from there?

00:25:34.820 | And rewards and like punishments to me

00:25:36.860 | are these assumptions that we have somehow converted

00:25:40.140 | from like the fiction shelf of the library in my mind

00:25:44.060 | to like the nonfiction shelf as like truths,

00:25:46.140 | and I kind of rail against all of them.

00:25:49.100 | So I think the question,

00:25:52.460 | if that's okay to go in that direction,

00:25:53.660 | to me is like, why do we think we need to reward kids,

00:25:56.280 | and is there actually a better system,

00:25:59.160 | both short-term and long-term?

00:26:01.040 | I'm incredibly long-term greedy in my parenting approach,

00:26:03.780 | 'cause at the end of the day,

00:26:05.460 | 18 and up is where things really matter.

00:26:07.840 | Not really matter, I mean, they all matter,

00:26:09.320 | but I'd rather, you know,

00:26:10.640 | I wanna help my kids become sturdy, resilient adults,

00:26:13.620 | but I'm short-term greedy too, 'cause I'm a realist.

00:26:15.280 | Like I just can't deal with like

00:26:16.580 | all of these difficult moments.

00:26:18.300 | You get both for sure without rewards and punishments.

00:26:21.120 | So I don't know,

00:26:22.200 | what might someone tell me they give a reward for?

00:26:24.860 | Do you wanna use the like clearing the table or example?

00:26:28.740 | Let's start that there.

00:26:29.840 | It kind of goes back to like,

00:26:33.280 | believing kids are inherently good inside.

00:26:35.420 | I really think it goes back to that.

00:26:36.700 | If you really believe kids are inherently good inside,

00:26:38.680 | which by the way, when I strip back every assumption,

00:26:40.620 | the only thing I was left was that,

00:26:42.440 | literally the only thing.

00:26:44.800 | And then I started to think, okay,

00:26:46.420 | so if they're good inside,

00:26:47.320 | why do they do so many annoying things like all the time?

00:26:51.040 | But that gave me a gap.

00:26:53.040 | And I feel like that is very exciting to have a gap.

00:26:56.800 | Like why do people who are good inside

00:26:58.280 | do such bad things, right?

00:26:59.720 | Adults or kids.

00:27:01.440 | And to me, right, kids are born with all the feelings

00:27:04.400 | and none of the skills to manage those feelings.

00:27:07.220 | Like period.

00:27:08.060 | And we've often thought, therefore, when feelings,

00:27:11.760 | feelings without skills come out in behaviors.

00:27:14.180 | I think that's what bad behaviors are.

00:27:16.040 | Feelings or urges or something without a skill

00:27:18.320 | to manage them or without access to the skill,

00:27:20.800 | might be in that moment, either way.

00:27:22.780 | And then we end up punishing behavior,

00:27:25.080 | but the behavior was just a sign of the lack of skill.

00:27:31.000 | So I can't imagine anyone thinking

00:27:35.200 | I could teach my kid to swim

00:27:36.600 | by punishing them for not swimming.

00:27:38.600 | Like I think someone would say that was crazy.

00:27:40.840 | But that's kind of how we raise kids.

00:27:44.480 | And then we think rewarding them is gonna be effective,

00:27:47.480 | but it actually leads over and over to what you said.

00:27:49.480 | I've seen these parents over and over my private practice.

00:27:51.440 | My 14 year old literally won't pick up their clothes

00:27:54.440 | from the floor unless I give them $5.

00:27:56.240 | Like, how did I get here?

00:27:57.200 | And I'm like, yeah, that's a problem.

00:27:59.760 | But I saw how they got there.

00:28:01.360 | So let's take clearing their plate.

00:28:05.360 | I know this is gonna sound cheesy,

00:28:06.880 | but kids do have something in them

00:28:08.520 | where they wanna feel like a purposeful,

00:28:10.100 | meaningful part of society.

00:28:11.920 | They do.

00:28:12.740 | Impact drives adults and it drives kids.

00:28:15.280 | It's not the same type of rewarding as playing Fortnite.

00:28:18.560 | It's a totally different system.

00:28:20.440 | But I think the question is like,

00:28:21.520 | why do we think we have to bribe kids

00:28:23.200 | or kind of trick them into doing things

00:28:27.000 | that are kind of like basic parts of human life?

00:28:29.480 | And so if we take that and my kid chronically

00:28:32.600 | isn't clearing their plate, I could say to them,

00:28:34.900 | look, every time you clear a plate,

00:28:37.800 | I'm gonna give you a sticker.

00:28:38.640 | After five stickers, you're gonna get,

00:28:40.260 | I don't know, whatever it is.

00:28:41.720 | To me, like a much more just effective way

00:28:44.960 | is I'd say to my kid, hey, I know you know,

00:28:47.480 | like clearing a plate is just one way

00:28:49.240 | of being part of this family and taking care of stuff.

00:28:51.080 | I know you know that, we're on the same team.

00:28:52.960 | I say that phrase, we're on the same team, right, we are.

00:28:56.120 | Something's getting in your way of remembering.

00:28:58.060 | I'm gonna assume I like the most generous interpretation.

00:29:01.460 | That to me allows you to separate someone's bad behavior

00:29:04.680 | from their good identity.

00:29:06.160 | Then I'm gonna say, what would help you remember?

00:29:07.700 | We literally did this with my son

00:29:08.800 | who always had his towel on the floor.

00:29:10.640 | And I was just like, I bet he just doesn't remember.

00:29:12.680 | He literally doesn't see it.

00:29:13.760 | We talked about it and he's like,

00:29:15.440 | we talked about him putting a Post-it, literally.

00:29:17.740 | Something simple like a Post-it on my door

00:29:19.960 | that just says pick up my towel.

00:29:21.280 | He wrote it in his own handwriting, right,

00:29:22.940 | trying to facilitate him like solving his own problems.

00:29:25.720 | And now he has a much higher rate of picking up his towel.

00:29:29.160 | Like I guess I could have said,

00:29:30.400 | every time you pick up your towel,

00:29:31.560 | you'll, I don't know, get a dollar or whatever it is.

00:29:34.760 | But again, it makes me think,

00:29:36.000 | I'm not building the generalizable skill that way.

00:29:40.320 | I'm just kind of offering something at the end,

00:29:42.920 | which sets me on this kind of awful cycle

00:29:46.780 | that I think kind of misses the point.

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00:31:15.960 | I love the idea that kids want purpose.

00:31:18.340 | And am I correct in wondering

00:31:23.040 | if that goes back to this am I real component

00:31:25.560 | of the am I real, am I safe?

00:31:27.240 | - Yes.

00:31:28.060 | - Like one way that we know we are real

00:31:29.520 | is our ability to impart change on the world around us.

00:31:33.440 | I don't want to get too abstract here,

00:31:34.840 | but as a neuroscientist,

00:31:36.520 | I've often sat back and reflected

00:31:37.720 | like all the emotions we feel,

00:31:39.880 | like no one sees that or knows that.

00:31:42.080 | Unless we say something, we write something,

00:31:44.520 | we sing something, we shout something,

00:31:46.240 | all the forms of expression,

00:31:47.560 | just like none of our dreams,

00:31:50.280 | our creative insights or wishes exist,

00:31:55.200 | except inside us, unless we transmute them

00:31:56.920 | into something in the real world.

00:31:58.020 | So there does seem to be something

00:31:59.040 | about having this nervous system

00:32:00.760 | from a time we're really on,

00:32:01.720 | like it's seeing our effect on the world

00:32:04.480 | that really makes us real and on others.

00:32:07.640 | And I love the idea that, well,

00:32:10.160 | and I must say, I absolutely believe in my heart

00:32:12.800 | and I just feel it as a feeling

00:32:14.760 | that kids are inherently good inside.

00:32:17.080 | Like I just, I can't imagine any other version of that,

00:32:20.060 | but does that mean that there are people out there

00:32:22.060 | who believe that kids are inherently bad

00:32:24.120 | or at least not good?

00:32:26.200 | I mean, like how could that be?

00:32:28.760 | But then again, maybe I'm just naive.

00:32:31.720 | - I don't know if anyone consciously believes that,

00:32:33.480 | but when I go back to that system

00:32:34.680 | I was first trained in rewards and punishments,

00:32:38.400 | like it feels like a system of behavioral control.

00:32:42.300 | And to me, like I've always thought about control

00:32:45.400 | and trust as opposites.

00:32:47.340 | So I only control what I don't trust.

00:32:50.280 | So nobody said to me in that program,

00:32:52.240 | by the way, Becky, everything you're learning here,

00:32:53.920 | we believe kids are bad inside and so we do this thing,

00:32:57.200 | but well, if I don't trust my kid

00:33:01.220 | and if I don't trust they inherently have the things in them

00:33:03.500 | to do good, by the way, that's not gonna happen naturally.

00:33:05.880 | That's why we have a big job as a parent to coach our kids

00:33:08.640 | to bring that out, to set boundaries when they can't do it

00:33:11.280 | and so many other things.

00:33:12.460 | But I don't believe anyone would say,

00:33:14.820 | yeah, it's 'cause they're bad inside,

00:33:15.980 | but there is a nature where you're constantly interacting

00:33:19.080 | with your kid from that other system,

00:33:21.660 | looking at them like, I don't trust you.

00:33:24.620 | I don't trust you and when you do bad things,

00:33:27.020 | I cannot hold on to the fact that you have a good identity.

00:33:30.620 | That's why I'm giving you a punishment.

00:33:32.680 | That's why I'm sending you away to your room

00:33:34.560 | and so if I'm reflecting back to you constantly

00:33:37.880 | that you are just your latest behavior,

00:33:39.740 | that I don't trust you, that I kind of have to bribe you

00:33:42.800 | to do very basic human things,

00:33:45.560 | well, our kids form their identity

00:33:48.720 | from our reflection of them

00:33:51.320 | and so then this is what really compelled all of this.

00:33:53.520 | I'm like, we're raising generation after generation of kid

00:33:56.480 | kind of saying to them like,

00:33:57.600 | you're kind of a bad, untrustworthy kid

00:34:00.400 | and then we wonder why we have such high rates

00:34:02.320 | of like massive mental health problems.

00:34:03.760 | Well, there's some linearity there.

00:34:06.800 | - I'm curious about this notion of impingement.

00:34:09.640 | I've heard about this idea that when we're young,

00:34:14.640 | we're forging life deciding,

00:34:17.480 | do I like the way this tastes or not tastes?

00:34:20.120 | By the way, I still hate anchovies.

00:34:22.040 | I don't need to be asked again to know the answer,

00:34:26.280 | but when you're young,

00:34:27.360 | we're encouraged to do things like eat your broccoli,

00:34:30.120 | taste the anchovy and some parents,

00:34:32.600 | it seems are very comfortable with the idea

00:34:34.680 | of allowing their children to have their feelings

00:34:37.480 | and their wishes.

00:34:38.320 | As I always say, the nervous system seems to be divided

00:34:41.400 | into yum, yucks and meh, mez.

00:34:44.200 | I guess the plural will be mez, yum, yucks and mez.

00:34:47.360 | I mean, it's more complicated than that,

00:34:48.740 | but like with people where you're like,

00:34:49.840 | yeah, I really like them or no, something's off.

00:34:52.280 | They're like, meh, you know?

00:34:54.400 | So it's not that much more nuanced than that

00:34:56.240 | and the brain's got to make decisions after all, excuse me.

00:34:59.980 | So kids have their yums, yucks and mez,

00:35:04.300 | and then we've got our ideas about what they need to do

00:35:08.780 | in order to progress through life,

00:35:10.720 | often inherited from our parents

00:35:12.200 | and hopefully modified by the wonderful work

00:35:14.060 | that you're doing and writing about and in your program

00:35:16.920 | that we're talking about here.

00:35:19.060 | But how much space should we allow

00:35:23.520 | for kids to be unimpinged?

00:35:26.500 | Like you don't want to eat what we're eating for dinner,

00:35:29.200 | like, okay, I'm not going to cook you an entire new dinner,

00:35:32.400 | but then I guess like you might go to bed hungry.

00:35:35.220 | Sounds harsh, right?

00:35:36.540 | But the other version is, okay,

00:35:39.580 | what would you like for dinner?

00:35:41.180 | Well, I prefer, let's say they pick a healthy option.

00:35:44.100 | They prefer pasta, not chicken.

00:35:46.900 | Okay, we won't do the ice cream chicken thing.

00:35:50.680 | Do we do it?

00:35:53.540 | Right, like how much impingement?

00:35:54.720 | I don't want to watch a movie with the family.

00:35:56.780 | I want to play in my room.

00:35:58.320 | You know, at some level, I've heard it both ways

00:36:01.120 | that impingement is needed for safety and life progression,

00:36:05.580 | but there's times when it's more subtle than that.

00:36:08.600 | It's not about safety and life progression.

00:36:10.320 | It's not about going to school

00:36:11.300 | or not going to school, homework or no homework.

00:36:12.920 | It's about like, do you want to come with us to the park?

00:36:15.760 | You want to play at home in your room?

00:36:17.660 | How often should we impinge?

00:36:20.300 | How do we know?

00:36:21.420 | This is kind of the tricky areas of parenting

00:36:26.780 | that I think, because it doesn't fall into the extremes.

00:36:30.300 | - Yeah, I love this question.

00:36:32.180 | That's a word I don't often hear actually.

00:36:34.300 | Impingement, like, can you act like what?

00:36:36.500 | Like definition-wise?

00:36:39.000 | - Like impinging on the child's inherent natural desires

00:36:43.740 | or aversion to things.

00:36:45.800 | - Got it, okay.

00:36:46.640 | - Like you say, we're going over so-and-so's house

00:36:48.480 | and they say, you know, I don't like their kids.

00:36:51.520 | You go, listen, you got to learn to play with other kids

00:36:53.340 | and go, no, I don't like their kids.

00:36:54.180 | And you say, did something happen?

00:36:55.860 | And so we're not talking about a dangerous situation.

00:36:57.900 | We're like, no, I don't like them.

00:36:59.560 | I just really want to just stay home.

00:37:01.400 | - Yeah, this is a great.

00:37:03.240 | - So are we going to impinge on there?

00:37:05.200 | I mean, because we're teaching them,

00:37:06.660 | but either way, we're teaching them something.

00:37:08.500 | You got to do stuff you don't want to do,

00:37:10.300 | even if you don't like it.

00:37:11.660 | And we're here again, we're ruling out the possibility

00:37:13.460 | that there's something unsafe about the environment,

00:37:15.700 | psychologically or physically unsafe.

00:37:18.180 | Or, but at the same time, we're teaching them,

00:37:20.980 | hey, I see you, I hear you,

00:37:23.540 | but you know, your desires might not be right.

00:37:26.940 | There's actually a kind of like a tacit message

00:37:30.420 | of the way you feel might not be the best gauge

00:37:33.120 | of what's best for you,

00:37:33.960 | which sends a complicated message to a kid.

00:37:36.280 | - Totally, so this is again, where I think at Good Inside,

00:37:39.020 | like family jobs are so useful.

00:37:40.920 | Family jobs to me, when I used to meet with parents

00:37:43.580 | and like they describe a situation,

00:37:45.060 | I feel like 90% of the time that's where I'd start,

00:37:47.440 | because then that flows from there.

00:37:48.540 | It's like a framework.

00:37:49.360 | So what is my job?

00:37:50.980 | I'm the one who sets boundaries.

00:37:52.160 | Like I am the one who makes key family decisions.

00:37:54.680 | Obviously, as our kids get older,

00:37:55.960 | they should be making some decisions too.

00:37:57.580 | No one likes to feel controlled, but key decisions.

00:38:00.040 | And my job is to validate my kids' experience.

00:38:03.640 | This is actually complicated because again,

00:38:05.580 | over and over, we think that validating my kids' experience

00:38:09.460 | means they're gonna dictate a decision.

00:38:11.380 | My boundaries don't dictate my kids' feelings,

00:38:14.660 | and my kids' feelings should not dictate my boundaries.

00:38:18.120 | They're just two equal things.

00:38:19.280 | So this is a great example.

00:38:20.260 | My kids are like, you know,

00:38:21.260 | I don't like playing with those kids,

00:38:22.460 | and can I just stay home with,

00:38:24.180 | let's just say grandma was home.

00:38:25.660 | Can I just stay home?

00:38:26.740 | And I'm like, I just think it's important to go as a family,

00:38:28.660 | but my kid doesn't wanna go.

00:38:29.980 | There's nothing dangerous.

00:38:30.900 | Okay, to me, this is that exact way

00:38:33.020 | of putting family jobs into action, sweetie.

00:38:35.700 | And to me, this phrase,

00:38:36.840 | I wish every parent could say this to their kid.

00:38:39.740 | I believe you.

00:38:40.860 | If you wanna make a kid feel real and confident for life,

00:38:44.920 | confidence comes from the experience of being believed,

00:38:46.780 | 'cause that's how you, for me, confidence is self-trust.

00:38:49.380 | It's not feeling good about yourself.

00:38:50.540 | It's self-trust.

00:38:52.260 | I really do know the way I feel.

00:38:55.100 | So let's say I say to my son in that situation,

00:38:57.420 | it's, I believe you, I believe you.

00:38:59.740 | Look, I know you want to play football all day,

00:39:03.300 | and the kid around your age hates football.

00:39:05.220 | Like that would probably be lowest on your list

00:39:08.480 | of types of kids you'd wanna hang out with

00:39:10.580 | for the afternoon.

00:39:11.420 | I totally believe you.

00:39:13.000 | And in this family, we know that sometimes we have

00:39:19.460 | to do things we don't love to do.

00:39:21.340 | We do that for a family experience.

00:39:23.180 | I say this to my kid all the time.

00:39:25.360 | You know, also just to end up being a good adult,

00:39:28.020 | you just have to end up practicing as a kid,

00:39:30.160 | doing things you don't wanna do, things that are boring,

00:39:32.220 | things that aren't your preference.

00:39:33.420 | So, you know, you notch in your belt for that.

00:39:35.700 | So you don't have to thank me.

00:39:37.660 | And also, I know you have it in you

00:39:40.260 | to do your best to be polite and engaged.

00:39:42.700 | Like, I just, I know you're a good kid,

00:39:44.620 | and this isn't what you want,

00:39:45.800 | and I know we're gonna get through it.

00:39:47.380 | Now, if it's really hard, maybe, Yong, hey,

00:39:49.100 | let's create a sign.

00:39:50.140 | Like, can you look at me and go,

00:39:51.740 | when you feel like you're kind of at this,

00:39:54.980 | and then me and you, we're gonna go to the bathroom,

00:39:56.820 | I'm gonna give you a hug, and, right,

00:39:58.460 | I'm gonna say, I know this isn't what you want,

00:40:00.380 | and when we get home, we can watch that football game,

00:40:02.420 | whatever it was, right?

00:40:04.280 | Because what we often do is we leave ourselves

00:40:06.140 | with two choices with kids.

00:40:07.580 | We either say, fine, stay home.

00:40:09.820 | Their feelings actually just dictated the decision.

00:40:12.860 | That's not helpful for them.

00:40:14.380 | I don't want my kid to learn in life.

00:40:16.340 | When I don't wanna do something,

00:40:17.800 | people twist and turn to make that thing not happen.

00:40:20.060 | That's disturbing for adulthood expectations.

00:40:22.620 | But then we do the other thing,

00:40:23.700 | which is you are so selfish.

00:40:25.560 | Just because you don't have a friend your age

00:40:28.340 | doesn't mean that you can't come with us.

00:40:30.920 | So we either let their feelings dictate,

00:40:34.860 | or we think our boundaries kind of give us the right

00:40:37.600 | to be mad at our kid, right?

00:40:39.700 | To do both is so important.

00:40:43.100 | And so that's where I think, to me,

00:40:44.420 | when I hear impingement,

00:40:46.060 | I actually think that is the exact space

00:40:48.500 | where you have the most bang for your buck as a parent.

00:40:50.400 | Like, it's not enjoyable.

00:40:51.740 | And again, if I have my beautiful intervention with my son,

00:40:54.240 | do not think my kid will look at me and say,

00:40:56.420 | I love how you explained that.

00:40:57.620 | That was so beautiful.

00:40:58.640 | No, he's gonna roll his eyes.

00:41:00.280 | My job is not to take the bait, 'cause I'm an adult,

00:41:03.520 | and to also hold hope.

00:41:06.200 | I think that's really important, this concept of,

00:41:08.620 | I'm validating my kids' feelings where they are today,

00:41:11.660 | but I need to be the one to hold hope

00:41:14.600 | that they can cope with it.

00:41:16.140 | If I can't name to my kid,

00:41:17.120 | I know you're gonna get through it.

00:41:18.780 | They're not gonna be able to see

00:41:19.900 | that kind of next, more mature version of themselves.

00:41:23.440 | And I actually think it's the same as your best boss.

00:41:25.780 | You know, it was like,

00:41:26.740 | I know you don't wanna go on this trip.

00:41:28.580 | Whatever it is, I know this presentation topic

00:41:30.820 | isn't the one you would have chosen,

00:41:32.420 | and there were 10 things, and this was literally number 10.

00:41:34.980 | I totally get that, and it stinks,

00:41:36.860 | and I'm not taking anything away from that.

00:41:38.860 | And this is the thing I need you to do.

00:41:42.900 | And I know something about you.

00:41:44.640 | When you put your mind to something,

00:41:46.340 | you always do a great job,

00:41:47.760 | and it's probably not gonna be enjoyable,

00:41:49.740 | but I do know you're gonna do a great job on this.

00:41:52.800 | That's the boss you want.

00:41:54.400 | - Amazing.

00:41:55.240 | Are you adopting children, by the way?

00:41:56.960 | 'Cause I actually finished college.

00:42:00.060 | - You, I consider, Andrew, you, adult children.

00:42:04.200 | - What I'm hearing is don't dictate their behavior,

00:42:09.440 | and I'm gonna underline in bold, dictate.

00:42:12.280 | Don't dictate their behavior.

00:42:13.640 | You're going to do this because I said so.

00:42:16.360 | That's dictatorship.

00:42:18.360 | But at the same time,

00:42:19.720 | don't quash the emotion behind the resistance.

00:42:23.000 | Kind of acknowledge it, make them feel real.

00:42:26.240 | I believe you.

00:42:28.280 | I love this phrase.

00:42:29.500 | Amazing.

00:42:30.340 | And I love your definition of confidence.

00:42:32.420 | If people didn't hear that,

00:42:33.400 | we're definitely gonna repeat it again,

00:42:34.780 | and we're gonna etch it into your neural circuitry

00:42:37.900 | 'cause I love that.

00:42:39.420 | It's a self trust, and this notion of giving hope,

00:42:44.420 | you're giving them an incentive that's based on a reward

00:42:49.900 | that's actually good for them

00:42:51.660 | that they can translate to other situations as well.

00:42:54.400 | - Wow.

00:42:56.620 | Can I double click on reward?

00:42:59.060 | Because you know what made me think,

00:43:00.160 | I didn't think until you said that,

00:43:01.140 | like I think in a situation where you'd be tempted to say,

00:43:04.060 | and if you go and you're polite,

00:43:06.380 | I'll give you 20 extra minutes of Roblox, right?

00:43:09.500 | That's like...

00:43:11.100 | And first of all, let me just say something.

00:43:13.780 | Like whatever I say to you, like for listeners,

00:43:15.860 | it's not like I do this stuff all the time

00:43:17.380 | with my actual kids.

00:43:18.220 | I'm the first one sometimes to be like,

00:43:19.460 | here's your thing I have to dangle.

00:43:20.900 | - We'll put out a little section in the comment section

00:43:22.780 | on YouTube where your kids can,

00:43:23.860 | no, I'm just kidding. - Yeah, exactly.

00:43:25.020 | - Your kids are forbidden.

00:43:25.860 | No, ooh, wait, that's, wait, that's dictating.

00:43:28.340 | We understand why you,

00:43:29.660 | I believe that you would want to comment,

00:43:31.860 | but we're gonna trust,

00:43:33.560 | we're gonna let you know why it's good for you if you don't.

00:43:35.980 | Anyway, I'll practice this on someone else's kids.

00:43:37.860 | - But the reward, like the,

00:43:39.420 | when your kid ends up seeing themself

00:43:43.900 | capable of doing something

00:43:45.780 | they didn't previously think they could do,

00:43:48.900 | you know better than me,

00:43:50.020 | but I feel like that is like one of the best rewards,

00:43:53.180 | even if it's getting through a social situation.

00:43:55.780 | Or I think about this a lot with, you know,

00:43:57.460 | my little kid is, I don't know,

00:43:59.640 | like struggling with a puzzle or something,

00:44:01.660 | and I could just do it for them.

00:44:03.300 | Or if I help them kind of regulate,

00:44:05.500 | oh, this is a hard puzzle,

00:44:07.460 | and you can take a break,

00:44:08.520 | I just know you're gonna figure it out.

00:44:11.220 | Today, I just know it.

00:44:13.060 | And then because of that, they get there.

00:44:16.440 | That feels in your body,

00:44:17.940 | like that is the best kind of reward.

00:44:19.820 | And it's the type of reward that works for kids in adulthood.

00:44:23.740 | When they're in a job,

00:44:24.780 | we want them to be motivated

00:44:26.420 | by the feeling they're gonna have of pride.

00:44:29.100 | Not be saying, hey, I finished my thing early.

00:44:31.300 | Do I get a bonus to their boss?

00:44:32.760 | Like that's not gonna play out as well.

00:44:35.140 | - I love it.

00:44:35.980 | I'm just pausing and shaking my head

00:44:39.260 | only 'cause I love it so much.

00:44:41.160 | And I just wanna make sure

00:44:42.040 | that I don't quickly move to the next question

00:44:43.900 | without drilling down even deeper

00:44:45.620 | into some of these concepts.

00:44:47.020 | I believe you as the feedback or response

00:44:53.100 | that can instill real confidence over time.

00:44:55.920 | Not to get too nuanced here,

00:44:59.460 | but how is it different?

00:45:01.900 | Because I sense it is different than I hear you.

00:45:05.340 | I hear you, but you're gonna do this anyway.

00:45:09.100 | Or I hear you, but listen in this family,

00:45:11.740 | I believe you, the word believe is powerful.

00:45:16.340 | And I believe there's real power in specific words

00:45:18.460 | as is like for instance, sturdiness,

00:45:20.620 | again, that's such a powerful and underused word.

00:45:23.860 | I believe you.

00:45:24.800 | You're a psychologist.

00:45:27.460 | What do you think we're hearing

00:45:30.180 | when somebody says I believe you?

00:45:31.960 | That's different than I hear you.

00:45:34.220 | - I haven't listed these out,

00:45:35.180 | but I think we all have these like core needs as humans.

00:45:38.180 | And I think being believed is one of them

00:45:40.540 | because it's someone else kind of saying you're real.

00:45:45.540 | I might not feel what you're feeling,

00:45:49.640 | but that thing that feels strong to you

00:45:52.620 | that nobody can see or measure is real.

00:45:58.260 | And when I think about the most confident people,

00:46:02.180 | like I think about this girl who I went to Duke with

00:46:05.260 | and she was just brilliant, like so smart.

00:46:07.420 | We were in this seminar.

00:46:08.980 | It was one of these small classes where this professor

00:46:10.700 | was like talking about stuff.

00:46:12.420 | And like I, for once, I was like,

00:46:13.420 | I have no idea what this person's talking about.

00:46:14.860 | But like, I was like, no one else was stopping.

00:46:17.240 | And this girl raised her hand and she said,

00:46:19.120 | I'm sorry if everyone else is annoying.

00:46:20.500 | Like I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:46:23.620 | Like, is there any, 'cause I usually do.

00:46:25.140 | And like, is there any way you could say that

00:46:26.820 | in a different way?

00:46:28.580 | That is like, to me, the utmost version of confidence,

00:46:32.580 | that she believed her own experience of confusion

00:46:36.220 | was real confusion.

00:46:38.260 | She didn't think it was a sign.

00:46:39.420 | She was stupid.

00:46:40.300 | She believed it.

00:46:41.700 | She believed herself.

00:46:42.980 | That is so confident.

00:46:45.540 | And I think when someone says, I hear you,

00:46:48.540 | it's like a version of listening.

00:46:52.120 | There's many worse phrases.

00:46:53.140 | No damage is done.

00:46:54.900 | When we follow anything but but, we tend to invalidate.

00:46:57.300 | So that's not good anyway.

00:46:58.220 | I believe you, but is also not gonna.

00:47:00.140 | But there's a million examples of this to me

00:47:02.620 | that build confidence.

00:47:04.060 | And I actually think there's so many situations with kids

00:47:07.620 | where they say situations and we worry,

00:47:09.460 | oh, they have low confidence.

00:47:10.900 | And then we intervene to quote, make them feel better,

00:47:14.180 | which actually is the thing that lowers their confidence.

00:47:16.420 | 'Cause it's like, we say to them, I don't believe you.

00:47:19.060 | You're not really feeling the way you feel.

00:47:21.140 | Where I believe you is the exact opposite.

00:47:23.580 | So I like to give examples just 'cause it makes it concrete.

00:47:26.540 | Like my kid will come home and say,

00:47:28.300 | I don't know, I was picked last for dodge ball today.

00:47:36.380 | I was picked last in something.

00:47:37.660 | And they're clearly very, very sad, right?

00:47:40.820 | And we wanna say to them, like, it's no big deal.

00:47:43.780 | Or everyone's picked last sometimes.

00:47:45.580 | Or remember yesterday you told me

00:47:47.500 | you were picked first for basketball.

00:47:49.180 | And we think like, I need to build up my kid's confidence.

00:47:53.060 | Those are confidence, I won't say destroying us,

00:47:56.700 | reducing interventions.

00:47:58.700 | 'Cause a kid is kind of coming to a parent basically saying,

00:48:01.740 | I'm very, very upset that I was picked last.

00:48:05.020 | And we're saying to a kid, no, you weren't.

00:48:07.980 | And they're like, but I am.

00:48:09.620 | And what they learn is, and this is really terrifying to me,

00:48:13.540 | is other people are better feelers of my feelings than I am.

00:48:21.260 | And it has like a million really scary interpersonal,

00:48:23.900 | I think, relationship kind of consequences later down in life.

00:48:28.900 | But when a kid says, I was picked last

00:48:31.180 | and nobody even wants me

00:48:32.340 | and they all think I'm the worst athlete,

00:48:33.900 | whatever kids say, to sit and say some version of like,

00:48:37.900 | I'm so glad we're talking about this.

00:48:39.780 | And I can tell that was a really hard gym class.

00:48:41.700 | And sweetie, like, I believe you.

00:48:46.060 | You will watch your kid.

00:48:48.540 | It is crazy to me what parents tell me happen

00:48:51.580 | when they say those words to their kids.

00:48:52.980 | They're like, it also just like literally diffused everything

00:48:56.340 | and they were like ready to move on.

00:48:57.740 | Like they are just trying to tell you probably

00:49:00.420 | like I was feeling something, it was a lot,

00:49:02.860 | it was confusing, right?

00:49:04.620 | Our feelings are always hardest when we're alone in them.

00:49:06.460 | So I was alone in it and I bring it to you.

00:49:07.980 | When someone says, I believe you,

00:49:09.860 | not only are they giving you that core need,

00:49:13.180 | they're also just like,

00:49:14.260 | they're like sitting down with you in it.

00:49:16.280 | And that makes everything better.

00:49:18.040 | And then meanwhile, what a kid feels like when we say,

00:49:20.340 | I believe you to a hard experience or hard feelings,

00:49:23.200 | they're like the feelings that overwhelm me

00:49:25.820 | don't overwhelm my parents.

00:49:27.660 | They can tolerate it.

00:49:28.560 | They're not scared of me kind of being a loser

00:49:30.860 | in gym class one day.

00:49:32.420 | And if my parent likes me, when I have that feeling,

00:49:36.900 | like I can start to like myself when I have that feeling.

00:49:39.920 | - It's so great because it sounds like

00:49:42.740 | it accomplishes both things.

00:49:45.260 | It makes kids feel real and safe.

00:49:48.780 | - Yes.

00:49:49.620 | - Real and safe.

00:49:51.900 | And I can't help but ask, say,

00:49:56.660 | because how we started off today

00:49:58.820 | was that this isn't just about parent-child relationships,

00:50:01.800 | but in friendships, in romantic relationships,

00:50:05.140 | in coworker relationships, that the words, I believe you,

00:50:09.040 | I have to presume based on everything I'm hearing now

00:50:12.540 | and feeling inside about it,

00:50:15.080 | that it's equally effective.

00:50:17.420 | - Huge.

00:50:18.260 | Years ago, I was on a podcast early on,

00:50:20.180 | and to me, there are these three lines

00:50:21.720 | that kind of all go together when kids are,

00:50:23.480 | anyone's upset, and it's kind of like you start,

00:50:25.820 | and to me, it's like a beautiful invitation

00:50:27.580 | to have that conversation just to say to someone,

00:50:29.760 | I'm so glad you're talking to me about this, right?

00:50:32.240 | And then kind of, I believe you, tell me more.

00:50:34.340 | And my husband, when he heard it, was like,

00:50:36.460 | you could say those words to me sometimes.

00:50:38.800 | I would like that because,

00:50:40.220 | and I think about the workplace too.

00:50:41.800 | You have someone come in, they're upset about,

00:50:43.840 | I don't know, I got staffed on this,

00:50:45.260 | or I'm not getting a promotion,

00:50:46.760 | and I thought I was, just diffuse it with just,

00:50:49.300 | I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

00:50:51.040 | Yeah, I've been working nonstop for,

00:50:53.320 | and just, if you say to them, I'm like, I believe you.

00:50:57.480 | 'Cause we usually don't say to someone, I don't believe you.

00:51:00.320 | But what we'll say is we defend ourselves in that moment,

00:51:03.920 | and the way the other person receives it

00:51:06.320 | is as if we're saying, I don't believe the intensity

00:51:10.680 | of the experience you're having.

00:51:12.640 | And when you do lead with I believe you,

00:51:14.800 | same thing in a partnership.

00:51:16.880 | Every time I ask you to do something,

00:51:18.320 | you get really hot and bothered.

00:51:20.760 | It doesn't even mean you agree.

00:51:21.960 | You're kind of just believing, I believe you.

00:51:25.360 | Tell me more.

00:51:26.680 | I believe you that that really upset you.

00:51:28.460 | And I'm obviously, I have a whole other story in my head,

00:51:31.520 | but I hear what you're saying,

00:51:35.160 | and I know there's something there,

00:51:36.960 | and I believe it enough to be open to hearing more about it.

00:51:40.360 | I don't know, that's like what's best.

00:51:41.920 | That's what we all want in our partnerships.

00:51:44.880 | - I mean, I'm wide-eyed.

00:51:45.800 | I mean, what a beautiful acknowledgement

00:51:47.720 | that, as you pointed out,

00:51:48.800 | is not agreeing to accept someone else's reality

00:51:53.520 | to the extent that you're going to dismantle

00:51:55.560 | the order of the world or whatever it is.

00:51:59.920 | But it's such an opening as opposed to a closing.

00:52:03.360 | And as you said, it's non-defended,

00:52:05.280 | but it's also boundaried.

00:52:07.360 | I mean, there's just so many things about it

00:52:10.480 | that feel good, seem good, and clearly are good.

00:52:15.480 | I don't want to go down the tragic rabbit hole of trauma,

00:52:20.380 | but previous guests on this podcast,

00:52:23.240 | we should probably define trauma

00:52:26.220 | just because it gets thrown around a lot.

00:52:27.620 | Trauma, an event or set of circumstances

00:52:30.440 | that fundamentally changed the way

00:52:33.520 | that the brain and nervous system works

00:52:34.980 | so that there's a maladaptive response going forward.

00:52:38.080 | It's not every bad thing that happens,

00:52:39.600 | but there are micro-traumas,

00:52:41.320 | sometimes called small t, more macro-traumas.

00:52:44.160 | Big T, again, could be multi-event or single event.

00:52:47.160 | But years ago, a different psychologist, psychiatrist,

00:52:51.240 | who's an adolescent psychiatrist at Stanford,

00:52:53.700 | said something in a seminar that just really struck me,

00:52:56.520 | which was that at its core,

00:52:59.120 | trauma is really about confusion over who's responsible.

00:53:04.120 | And here, we're not just talking about

00:53:06.560 | the more salient examples of sexual assault,

00:53:09.840 | those two, of course, but if we get screamed at,

00:53:14.840 | or we observe something like third-person trauma,

00:53:19.480 | the logical stance is, well, okay, that was them, not me.

00:53:23.760 | But when this happens, especially when we're young,

00:53:26.080 | the nervous system, the brain somehow interprets this

00:53:29.840 | as I was there, I had a role in it just by being there,

00:53:33.800 | so what was my role?

00:53:35.480 | And then somehow the emotional response

00:53:36.920 | becomes one of responsibility,

00:53:38.200 | even if we know like they're clearly

00:53:40.240 | the one that initiated this.

00:53:41.800 | And so the reason I'm bringing this up in this context

00:53:45.200 | is that it's almost like that lack of belief in self

00:53:48.680 | somehow gets rooted in, and then it all feels confusing,

00:53:52.280 | and then we don't feel safe,

00:53:54.280 | because it's a confusion about responsibility.

00:53:56.600 | Again, going back to these words-

00:53:58.760 | - Can we go down that rabbit hole for a second?

00:54:00.480 | - Please, please, that's why I raised it.

00:54:02.200 | - I think that- - I want your thoughts,

00:54:03.720 | not mine. - I always think trauma

00:54:04.600 | is actually not events.

00:54:06.800 | It's the way an event gets processed.

00:54:09.200 | And I love Gabor Matei's definition of trauma,

00:54:11.360 | it's not what happens to you,

00:54:12.400 | it's what happens inside of you, right?

00:54:14.760 | So to me, there's an inherent relationality there,

00:54:17.680 | where events that get, not any event,

00:54:20.720 | events with high emotionality,

00:54:22.120 | let's say that get processed in aloneness become traumatic.

00:54:27.120 | And I think that's where it gets linked to responsibility.

00:54:30.000 | So this is actually what my TED Talk was about

00:54:31.680 | and why repair is so important.

00:54:34.040 | Who said this?

00:54:35.760 | Ronald Fairburn, years ago,

00:54:38.080 | that for kids, it is better to be a sinner

00:54:41.180 | in a world ruled by God,

00:54:43.160 | than to live in a world ruled by the devil.

00:54:45.880 | I think it explains almost everything

00:54:48.000 | about child development right there.

00:54:49.840 | Going back to goodness also.

00:54:51.400 | Your parent just screamed at you.

00:54:54.520 | And by the way, your parent, I scream at my kids.

00:54:56.560 | Everyone's gonna scream at their kids, it's gonna happen.

00:54:58.240 | Okay, that's just the event.

00:54:59.360 | The event's not gonna have the impact.

00:55:01.400 | What is happening for a kid?

00:55:02.660 | Well, we know kids are oriented by attachment.

00:55:04.440 | They literally need us to survive.

00:55:06.800 | They could not survive on their own.

00:55:09.120 | And so what do you do when the person you're dependent on

00:55:12.420 | for safety becomes the source of danger and threat?

00:55:17.220 | That's very confusing for a child in that moment.

00:55:19.680 | So they're super hyper aroused.

00:55:22.200 | They're in this state of terror.

00:55:24.400 | And then usually after in my house,

00:55:25.720 | too, I just yell at my kid.

00:55:26.620 | They're kind of alone in their room.

00:55:28.480 | I'm alone in the kitchen or wherever.

00:55:30.320 | Meanwhile, spinning, 'cause I'm like, I'm such a bad parent.

00:55:32.240 | Like I'm probably, you know, but meanwhile,

00:55:33.780 | because I'm so lost in my own guilt,

00:55:36.180 | I might not be going to my kid.

00:55:38.080 | And so what happens for my kid if I don't repair

00:55:41.520 | after I scream at them or one of these events, right?

00:55:44.840 | Well, a kid cannot say to themselves,

00:55:48.720 | my parent just had a bad day.

00:55:50.400 | Then the badness is in my parent.

00:55:53.020 | My leader, I'm young now, right?

00:55:55.160 | Like I don't understand nuance.

00:55:56.240 | My leader can't be bad.

00:55:58.240 | So I must take on the badness, at least then I have control.

00:56:01.920 | So kids, after they're kind of yelled at,

00:56:05.200 | in the absence of repair,

00:56:07.400 | they really only have two options

00:56:09.200 | for how to regulate and feel safe again.

00:56:11.020 | They can self blame, it's all my fault,

00:56:13.360 | which is why I feel like most adults,

00:56:15.320 | when they have a hard time,

00:56:16.600 | they tell themselves like, it's my fault.

00:56:18.160 | I'm not good enough.

00:56:18.980 | It's like the legacy of that story from childhood.

00:56:22.320 | Or they use self doubt.

00:56:24.360 | Maybe that didn't happen.

00:56:25.240 | Maybe I overreacted.

00:56:26.440 | Maybe I can't trust myself.

00:56:27.740 | Again, it leads to adults who basically say like,

00:56:31.240 | did I overreact?

00:56:32.080 | Or let me call five friends.

00:56:33.780 | Let me see if they think what my boyfriend did

00:56:35.560 | was a big deal 'cause they can't trust themselves.

00:56:39.040 | And so trauma, what I want every parent to know

00:56:41.200 | is they'll say, I left my kid alone

00:56:42.640 | and I didn't pick them up at the soccer field.

00:56:44.040 | Is that gonna traumatize them?

00:56:45.680 | And I'll say, well, that's just the event.

00:56:47.240 | Like, did you say to them, hey, that probably felt scary.

00:56:50.760 | What was that like?

00:56:52.360 | Oh, you're right.

00:56:53.280 | Like you were alone.

00:56:54.800 | Now all of a sudden next to the event that was scary

00:56:58.000 | is my story and my connection.

00:57:00.360 | It got processed in a safe connection.

00:57:02.280 | It didn't get processed in aloneness.

00:57:04.560 | And that's a massive, massive difference.

00:57:07.440 | - The scenario you are describing,

00:57:09.680 | the parent who yelled goes to the child,

00:57:12.440 | having been that child

00:57:15.320 | and perhaps also having been that parent.

00:57:18.240 | How do we deal with the fact that sometimes,

00:57:21.660 | we don't want to be around the person that yelled at us.

00:57:25.560 | It hurts to receive the care.

00:57:29.000 | There's like a textured landscape

00:57:33.120 | as opposed to a smooth landscape there.

00:57:35.000 | Like, okay, now you're ready for everything to be peaceful.

00:57:38.680 | I'm still with my feelings.

00:57:40.000 | I guess that's where the, I believe you comes in.

00:57:42.840 | And that's where the sorting it through process begins.

00:57:45.840 | Is that right?

00:57:46.680 | - I think it's like what version of a parent comes back.

00:57:48.200 | To me, the first thing we have to do in a repair process

00:57:52.980 | is actually repair with ourselves as a parent, really.

00:57:57.080 | Because if you haven't repaired with yourself,

00:57:58.760 | which to me is kind of separating your identity again

00:58:01.680 | from your behavior, like, okay, Becky,

00:58:03.520 | I'll use myself as an example.

00:58:05.040 | I'm a good parent who just screamed at her son.

00:58:08.240 | Like, I did not mess up forever.

00:58:09.760 | And you see when you try to repair with yourself,

00:58:11.280 | those two things get collapsed.

00:58:12.560 | I'm like, I messed him up forever.

00:58:13.600 | I'm a monster.

00:58:14.440 | Wait, like, I'm a good parent

00:58:16.440 | who did something I'm not proud of.

00:58:18.820 | You can't repair with someone

00:58:19.880 | until you've repaired with yourself.

00:58:21.120 | They feel it from you.

00:58:22.120 | They actually, it usually is like,

00:58:24.640 | then you're asking for them.

00:58:25.980 | I'll be like, it's okay, right?

00:58:27.640 | Like, you forgive me, right?

00:58:28.840 | That's not a repair.

00:58:29.880 | That's like using your child to try to do something

00:58:32.720 | we just have to do on our own or with other adults.

00:58:34.840 | But if I've repaired with myself,

00:58:36.760 | I'm gonna show up in a different way.

00:58:38.160 | Might I have a feisty kid?

00:58:39.300 | I might.

00:58:40.140 | It's like, I don't care.

00:58:41.160 | It's not better.

00:58:42.000 | That's okay.

00:58:42.920 | I'm not repairing to get something from my child.

00:58:45.440 | I'm repairing to give an experience to them.

00:58:47.960 | So we can also get creative.

00:58:49.840 | You know, your kid is older, you text them,

00:58:51.600 | you slip a door under the note.

00:58:53.140 | You say, okay, I just have to say this one thing.

00:58:55.580 | To me, this line really matters to like snatch

00:58:57.660 | that self-blame out of a kid's body.

00:58:59.380 | It's just like, I'm sorry I yelled.

00:59:01.220 | It's never your fault when I yell.

00:59:03.260 | And it's not.

00:59:05.360 | And people who argue, like our ability

00:59:07.820 | to regulate our emotions predated our child's existence.

00:59:11.940 | Like that, you know, like they had something,

00:59:14.760 | they did something and we felt frustrated,

00:59:18.660 | but that's very different than yelling, right?

00:59:22.220 | And saying that to your kid is so important.

00:59:25.540 | Meanwhile, the next day you might say, by the way,

00:59:27.900 | let's really figure out how to get out the door

00:59:30.260 | in a smoother way.

00:59:31.100 | You know, you could work on whatever they need to work on.

00:59:33.660 | But the reason I think most kids end up

00:59:35.600 | rejecting parents' apologies is it's not really a repair.

00:59:38.820 | We're asking our kid for permission to be okay again.

00:59:42.180 | Or our repair sounds like, hey, I'm sorry I yelled,

00:59:44.780 | but you know, like if you just got ready in time,

00:59:47.460 | that wouldn't have happened.

00:59:48.420 | Or we say, I'm sorry you felt that way.

00:59:50.860 | I'm sorry you felt that way.

00:59:52.140 | Those are not, like none of those are actually repairs.

00:59:54.380 | And if that's what a kid's been used to,

00:59:56.580 | they're gonna keep a parent more at bay.

00:59:59.140 | - So is it safe to say that we can always come back

01:00:01.880 | to making the kid feel real and safe?

01:00:06.880 | I believe you is a great place to start.

01:00:09.240 | And the reason I keep coming back to these simple things

01:00:11.340 | is that, simple but very, very potent, by the way,

01:00:14.240 | is that in the real world landscape

01:00:17.900 | of parenting family and life,

01:00:19.300 | things are happening really fast and it's very dynamic

01:00:22.900 | and it's multifaceted.

01:00:24.400 | I mean, we haven't even talked yet about how,

01:00:27.180 | when there's two parents, like the one that didn't yell,

01:00:29.940 | when there's multiple siblings,

01:00:32.560 | when I mean, there's human dynamics on one,

01:00:34.860 | in an other landscape is hard enough.

01:00:38.080 | And then when you start introducing

01:00:39.180 | the real world landscape, things happen fast.

01:00:42.380 | So having something that people can reach to really quickly,

01:00:45.320 | what I call in the landscape of stress modulation,

01:00:47.820 | which is something that I'm more familiar with

01:00:49.660 | from my lab's work is, you know, real time tools.

01:00:52.180 | - Yep. - Real time tools.

01:00:53.500 | We're all at our best after meditation,

01:00:55.300 | vacation, massage, and a good night's sleep.

01:00:57.820 | But what about real time tools

01:01:00.020 | when everything's hectic?

01:01:02.340 | So what does a really good apology look like

01:01:07.940 | in the real world? - Yeah.

01:01:11.460 | - Because a really good apology

01:01:12.940 | in the ideal world of Instagram is yeah, I believe you.

01:01:21.560 | I'm so sorry with no buts, no this and that.

01:01:24.700 | But a real apology sometimes is as you're boarding a plane

01:01:28.320 | or when there's a bunch of other things that are going on

01:01:30.740 | and you haven't even dealt with those yet,

01:01:32.640 | or when you're on your way to an event or you, yeah, okay.

01:01:35.220 | So you get it.

01:01:36.820 | What does a really good internal landscape

01:01:40.460 | for apology look like?

01:01:41.540 | Like, how can we touch into where we need to be?

01:01:44.060 | And then what are the words that,

01:01:45.780 | even if we have to try again later

01:01:47.660 | and again and again later with that person,

01:01:50.700 | in this case, kid, but person more generally,

01:01:53.440 | what's the go-to solid apology?

01:01:57.300 | - So yeah, I think you're never gonna go wrong

01:01:59.120 | saying I believe you to your kid.

01:02:00.560 | Like obviously not if you say it randomly,

01:02:01.880 | but if they're really upset, you yelled at me,

01:02:04.380 | I believe you.

01:02:05.220 | Like, if that's all you can remember, you're crushing it.

01:02:07.900 | I think a realistic repair,

01:02:11.460 | you have to do something for yourself.

01:02:13.400 | And like, to me, it can be a very simple mantra.

01:02:16.280 | Like to me, I'm a good parent who is having a hard time

01:02:19.560 | is the one I use, honestly, over and over.

01:02:22.580 | Just, and after I yell at my kid,

01:02:24.480 | before I'll like go to the bathroom sometimes

01:02:26.340 | and I'll say that to myself, Becky,

01:02:27.700 | like I'm a good parent having a hard time.

01:02:30.380 | And I'll kind of say it as many times as I need

01:02:32.220 | until I really do feel something

01:02:33.660 | like shift a little in my body.

01:02:35.100 | It just, 'cause again, I think that phrase separates

01:02:37.900 | what I did from who I am, right?

01:02:41.800 | And then to me, a realistic apology,

01:02:43.860 | it could be super simple.

01:02:44.780 | If you remember nothing else,

01:02:45.620 | it could just be like, I'm sorry, I yelled, that's great.

01:02:49.960 | If you wanna, if you're like, I'm feeling it, Becky,

01:02:52.360 | give me that next step, you know, I'm sorry, I yelled.

01:02:55.980 | Just like you, I'm working on managing my emotions

01:02:59.840 | and you know, next time, even when I'm frustrated,

01:03:04.680 | I'm gonna try to stay calm.

01:03:05.860 | Something about the next time, you know,

01:03:08.080 | if you wanna throw in that it's not your fault.

01:03:10.840 | Kids, it seems an odd thing because parents are like,

01:03:13.800 | why do kids assume it's their fault?

01:03:15.740 | It is their default position.

01:03:19.540 | And so it's never a bad thing to throw in,

01:03:21.920 | but honestly, just simply, hey, I'm sorry, I yelled.

01:03:25.880 | That actually gives them that realness

01:03:28.160 | because without saying anything more,

01:03:29.900 | you're saying that thing you think happened did happen.

01:03:34.100 | So that's powerful.

01:03:36.160 | - I'd like to take a quick break

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01:04:37.580 | How do you suggest parents deal with retorts and rudeness?

01:04:42.580 | And again, let's extend this to all relationships.

01:04:46.040 | So you get in your best mindset.

01:04:48.960 | And by the way, I love this I am thing,

01:04:52.040 | two of the most important words in any language

01:04:57.480 | when translated to other languages.

01:04:59.080 | I am blank, I am a good this, or I am whatever.

01:05:02.480 | Role identity is key to the brain, we know this.

01:05:06.140 | You go in and you say, I'm really sorry.

01:05:11.140 | I struggle to regulate my emotions.

01:05:14.900 | I believe that you're really upset.

01:05:19.700 | And the kid says, I hate you.

01:05:22.420 | Now, earlier you said that good boundaries

01:05:25.300 | are about not expecting a change in behavior

01:05:27.980 | from someone else, they're about our own boundaries.

01:05:29.860 | So, or maybe the I hate you comes from,

01:05:34.780 | listen, we're not going to go to so-and-so's house

01:05:37.200 | for a play date today.

01:05:38.180 | - Great example, I hate you.

01:05:40.220 | - I hate you.

01:05:41.060 | So is there ever a case for no response?

01:05:45.960 | - I mean, to me, the most underutilized parenting strategy

01:05:50.740 | is doing nothing, literally.

01:05:52.460 | It's one of my most used strategies 'cause,

01:05:54.940 | and there's like really good reason for it,

01:05:57.620 | especially in this situation.

01:05:58.880 | So I always, to me, like I always say,

01:06:01.440 | we have to understand before we intervene.

01:06:03.200 | So I know every parent's like,

01:06:04.100 | what do you do in that situation?

01:06:05.420 | But it's like trying to fix someone's tennis swing

01:06:09.260 | before you like look at their tennis swing, right?

01:06:11.340 | Like there could be a lot of problems.

01:06:12.660 | So again, why is a kid saying, I hate you?

01:06:15.420 | And I would ask every parent to just keep this in mind.

01:06:17.720 | It's a tool and you can't use it in real time.

01:06:20.900 | Eventually you can, but we have to say it

01:06:22.760 | at like the end of the night.

01:06:23.640 | When my kid said, I hate you,

01:06:25.420 | what is my most generous interpretation

01:06:29.660 | of why he would say that to me?

01:06:31.580 | And if you're like any human, me included, by the way,

01:06:34.540 | like your least generous interpretation is immediate.

01:06:37.740 | You're like, because he's a sociopath.

01:06:38.980 | Like that's what we say all the time.

01:06:40.460 | We're like, wow, or because he's like a horrible kid

01:06:42.460 | 'cause he's spoiled, 'cause he's nasty.

01:06:44.260 | It comes easily.

01:06:45.180 | So that's fine.

01:06:46.280 | But what is my most generous interpretation?

01:06:48.860 | And when I don't know, I'll push myself to say,

01:06:51.740 | okay, well, like I was in a situation with my husband.

01:06:54.980 | What would lead me to say that?

01:06:57.280 | What would lead you to say that to someone?

01:07:00.540 | - That I hate them?

01:07:01.380 | - Yeah, like they like say something to you like,

01:07:02.820 | hey, Andrew, we're not gonna be able to do this dinner.

01:07:06.540 | - It would have to be some sort of deep betrayal of trust.

01:07:09.780 | And I have to acknowledge that if I said that to somebody

01:07:13.460 | that I really care about or love,

01:07:15.360 | as I'm saying, I hate you,

01:07:16.620 | what I'm really saying is I love you so much.

01:07:19.060 | And that hurts unbelievably,

01:07:22.260 | such an unbelievable intensity

01:07:24.540 | that what's coming out of my mouth is I hate you

01:07:26.380 | because if you didn't love them.

01:07:28.660 | - That's right.

01:07:29.500 | - It would have no effect.

01:07:30.500 | It would be a meh.

01:07:31.740 | It would be a meh, but instead it's a, oh, it hurts.

01:07:36.280 | So we, somehow there's a neural circuit in there that goes,

01:07:40.320 | you know, I whatever insert explicit hate you.

01:07:44.060 | - That's right.

01:07:44.900 | - But what you're really saying is I love you so much.

01:07:47.840 | - Yeah.

01:07:48.680 | - And as a consequence, that thing you did or said

01:07:50.820 | hurts so much.

01:07:52.340 | - That's right.

01:07:53.420 | And so I think that's like exactly what's going on for a kid

01:07:58.700 | or like to me, my most generous interpretation

01:08:01.100 | in a simple way is my kid,

01:08:03.100 | when I said we couldn't go to this friend's house

01:08:05.340 | that he thought we were going to,

01:08:06.740 | his friend he was gonna sleep over,

01:08:09.220 | he had like so built it up in his mind.

01:08:10.900 | He'd like, probably like kids do,

01:08:12.000 | like they have this whole image,

01:08:13.000 | oh, and then we're gonna do this and this.

01:08:14.240 | And like the let down was so intense.

01:08:17.260 | And again, I go back to kids have all the feelings we have

01:08:21.140 | and they're born with none of the skills.

01:08:22.700 | So it takes a lot of,

01:08:24.340 | it takes like a pretty well-developed skill

01:08:26.060 | to be really disappointed by the way.

01:08:28.560 | And surprised, right?

01:08:30.560 | In the moment and like manage it in like a mature way.

01:08:34.880 | I'm sure we both know adults

01:08:36.360 | who aren't really capable of doing that, right?

01:08:38.400 | So the fact that my seven year old is doing that.

01:08:40.120 | So if I think about it that way,

01:08:42.320 | we latch onto our kids' words as if they're the truth.

01:08:46.100 | They're not the truth.

01:08:47.100 | It's not to say they don't matter,

01:08:48.400 | but they're not the truth.

01:08:49.800 | The truth is whatever world is under the words.

01:08:53.120 | Like I'm disappointed and I don't know how to manage that.

01:08:56.060 | So if I think about the outcome,

01:08:57.360 | like where do I wanna be?

01:08:58.840 | What I would love in that situation.

01:09:01.020 | 'Cause the truth is when I say to my kid,

01:09:02.320 | "Sorry, we can't go to Bobby's house."

01:09:04.360 | I wouldn't even want,

01:09:05.200 | it's not normal for my kid to be like,

01:09:06.920 | "Oh, no problem."

01:09:08.640 | Because like I'm just picturing my 25 year old

01:09:11.240 | like trying to get a job and being like,

01:09:12.800 | "Mom, oh, I didn't get it."

01:09:14.200 | And then he's like, "No problem."

01:09:15.480 | I'm like, "That's kind of weird.

01:09:16.680 | Like really like that's weird.

01:09:18.240 | Like I'd want you to be disappointed."

01:09:20.540 | And so what I want my kid to be able to do

01:09:22.680 | is to be like, I don't know what's the best to get.

01:09:24.520 | It's like, "Oh man, I was really looking forward to that."

01:09:28.160 | That's like ultimate maturity.

01:09:29.780 | So how do I get from I hate you to,

01:09:32.420 | "Oh man, I was really like looking forward to that."

01:09:36.780 | The whole, all the things we wanna do

01:09:38.540 | just like don't even make sense.

01:09:39.680 | Like sending my kid to their room saying like,

01:09:41.900 | "You're such a nasty kid.

01:09:43.000 | I've never seen any of your friends

01:09:44.440 | say that to their parents."

01:09:45.560 | And I'm good at acting these things out

01:09:47.120 | 'cause of course I say these things too.

01:09:49.080 | But all I'm doing is basically telling my kid

01:09:51.520 | the version of themselves I don't want them to be.

01:09:53.960 | So now I'm further away from that outcome.

01:09:56.400 | Just not effective.

01:09:57.660 | My kid obviously literally needs to learn

01:10:01.020 | some of those skills and practice them.

01:10:02.940 | We don't think about simulations with kids nearly enough.

01:10:05.000 | We know that in sports.

01:10:06.460 | People practice all the time.

01:10:07.800 | We don't do that with emotion regulation.

01:10:09.520 | So what do I do in the moment?

01:10:10.680 | I think the best question here is,

01:10:12.660 | what do I do outside the moment

01:10:14.260 | to help my kid build the skills

01:10:15.760 | so they actually have more of a skill

01:10:17.600 | the next time that moment comes?

01:10:19.160 | Still, I'm a pragmatist.

01:10:20.320 | What do I do in the moment?

01:10:21.140 | I hate you.

01:10:21.980 | I probably would do nothing first.

01:10:23.700 | When someone is rude to you and they say something nasty,

01:10:27.200 | I don't know, I just like, this is my son, this is me.

01:10:29.600 | My son just hurled, "I hate you."

01:10:31.520 | It's like sitting between us.

01:10:33.120 | When we say back to them, like, you know,

01:10:36.560 | "I hate you," or like, "Go to your room,"

01:10:39.060 | we take all the energy from what they said

01:10:41.080 | and we just like throw it.

01:10:43.240 | And then like we have this ping pong match.

01:10:44.980 | When you do nothing, I always picture

01:10:47.000 | if this is like the "I hate you," it just sits between us.

01:10:50.600 | My kid has a much higher chance of kind of re-owning

01:10:54.420 | what they just said because I'm just kind of sturdy

01:10:58.100 | in that moment because I didn't just take it from them

01:11:00.900 | and say something to them,

01:11:02.020 | which just gives them the opportunity

01:11:03.460 | to like take what I said and have no responsibility

01:11:06.340 | for the first thing they said.

01:11:07.660 | It's always true in adults.

01:11:08.800 | When someone says to you like something nasty,

01:11:10.660 | if you actually just stay there,

01:11:12.560 | they're kind of like, "Oh, shoot.

01:11:14.060 | "Like I shouldn't have said that."

01:11:15.380 | Because like it's right there.

01:11:17.060 | So I'd probably say nothing.

01:11:19.180 | Now a couple, I don't know if I'd really do that,

01:11:21.520 | but I'd want to do that, let me be clear.

01:11:23.720 | Something else you can say in that moment,

01:11:26.220 | which takes a lot of presence,

01:11:27.320 | so it's not gonna happen right away,

01:11:29.360 | is just something like, "Whoa."

01:11:31.560 | Like clearly you're disappointed.

01:11:33.880 | I get that.

01:11:35.080 | I believe you.

01:11:36.560 | And I know there's another way you can say that to me.

01:11:41.200 | That's actually right back to family jobs.

01:11:43.200 | I'm validating and I'm setting kind of a boundary

01:11:46.300 | in some ways.

01:11:47.140 | Like I know maybe there's a hope there too.

01:11:48.560 | Like I know there's another way.

01:11:49.840 | If my kid keeps saying, "I hate you, I hate you,

01:11:51.840 | "you're the worst, you're the worst."

01:11:53.120 | And I'm gonna say, "Listen, I love you.

01:11:54.260 | "You're a good kid, you're having a hard time.

01:11:57.280 | "I really won't stay in your room

01:11:59.100 | "while you keep saying this to me."

01:12:00.240 | And part of that is 'cause it's not good for you either.

01:12:01.960 | Like this isn't a good dynamic.

01:12:03.160 | I'm gonna step outside, I'm gonna come back,

01:12:06.000 | and we can talk about it when we're both in a place

01:12:09.120 | where we can be a little more respectful

01:12:10.320 | or something like that, right?

01:12:11.600 | You don't have to be a punching bag.

01:12:13.420 | But at least now I'm helping my kid see

01:12:16.040 | that he is having a feeling under these words.

01:12:19.800 | If I can't differentiate the feeling from the behavior,

01:12:23.680 | how can I expect my kid to ever learn

01:12:26.800 | to differentiate those two?

01:12:28.460 | Which is how my kid can actually get

01:12:30.620 | to a more regulated place.

01:12:32.560 | - I've sometimes wondered whether or not parents

01:12:35.260 | are either afraid of or not afraid enough of their kids.

01:12:40.260 | I've known some parents that are afraid of their kids

01:12:45.600 | because, and perhaps as a consequence,

01:12:48.360 | who knows what the chicken egg is there.

01:12:51.240 | All we know is the parent was alive first.

01:12:53.280 | The kids learn to control their parents

01:12:57.160 | through not necessarily emotional outbursts,

01:13:00.320 | but the threat of emotional outbursts.

01:13:03.440 | I've seen this again and again,

01:13:05.160 | and it's a pretty wild thing to observe.

01:13:08.740 | And of course, as an observer,

01:13:11.140 | it's far easier than when you're in it.

01:13:12.960 | But this idea like, well, like they're like a pop ready

01:13:16.640 | to boil over, you know, like they're going to pop.

01:13:21.640 | And I've seen this in teachers in the classroom.

01:13:25.040 | I've seen this in so many venues where whether or not

01:13:30.040 | the child understands that they're somehow controlling

01:13:33.360 | the situation or not, that there's just an inherent fear

01:13:36.580 | of what could happen.

01:13:38.120 | And then I think kids feel a certain power,

01:13:41.160 | but they don't feel safe, right?

01:13:42.680 | I mean, how could they, right?

01:13:44.080 | Their children.

01:13:45.080 | - Yes.

01:13:46.080 | - So for the parents out there that are afraid

01:13:49.360 | of their kids' potential responses

01:13:51.860 | and or how bad their kid, quote unquote, might turn out

01:13:55.920 | if they were to really lay down the law.

01:13:58.200 | Here I'm using kind of old school language.

01:14:00.240 | Listen, I grew up, you know, I'm 48 years old.

01:14:02.140 | So, you know, I, yeah, I mean, my parents, you know,

01:14:06.920 | didn't physically abuse it, but there might've been

01:14:08.680 | a spanking every once in a while,

01:14:10.120 | or I don't know what the rule is nowadays

01:14:11.840 | or the standard out there.

01:14:14.360 | You know, I think I won't say which,

01:14:16.160 | but I might've taken a smack here or there, but not many.

01:14:20.680 | And it, there was also a lot of love, but clearly,

01:14:24.940 | and here I'm not supporting the use of corporal punishment.

01:14:28.800 | I want to be very clear, but you know, kids can be tough.

01:14:33.360 | And then also, you know, it wasn't long

01:14:36.100 | into my high school years when I was physically larger

01:14:38.160 | than both my parents, I never used that to intimidate them.

01:14:41.000 | But I have to imagine when your kid is larger than you,

01:14:42.960 | if you were already psychologically afraid of them,

01:14:45.720 | now you, it's clear to both of you

01:14:47.880 | that the tables have turned.

01:14:50.760 | - That's right. - Right?

01:14:51.680 | I'm talking about the unconscious,

01:14:53.440 | semi-conscious aspects of this.

01:14:55.160 | I'm not talking about who can, you know,

01:14:56.920 | obviously physical fights, there's not something

01:14:58.880 | I ever want to see or participate in in a household.

01:15:02.000 | - So this is an amazing topic, like walking on eggshells.

01:15:05.080 | This is right.

01:15:05.920 | And this is terrifying to a kid, because again,

01:15:10.960 | if a kid is trying to figure out like,

01:15:12.680 | am I real and am I safe?

01:15:15.200 | Kids do experience feelings in such an intense way,

01:15:19.320 | because they don't have any of those skills

01:15:20.680 | and they're so surprising and they're so visceral,

01:15:22.920 | that it is scary to them.

01:15:24.540 | And there are kind of, especially these groups of kids,

01:15:27.060 | I call them deeply feeling kids,

01:15:29.280 | that do feel things more intensely.

01:15:31.960 | And they do have more of these big, massive tantrums.

01:15:34.800 | They even look animalistic often during,

01:15:36.440 | they try to scratch you, they'll hiss during them,

01:15:38.540 | they'll growl. - Hiss, really?

01:15:40.120 | - Yes.

01:15:41.160 | - I grew up with some biters, kids that bite.

01:15:44.320 | - Yes, because again, those are just feelings

01:15:46.800 | literally uncontained that are exploding out.

01:15:49.040 | And where do they explode out?

01:15:50.080 | Through your extremities.

01:15:50.920 | So that's really what it is.

01:15:53.120 | And so what will happen,

01:15:55.000 | and this is this really unfortunate dance,

01:15:56.880 | one of my favorite things to help people turn around,

01:16:00.280 | is then kids kind of sense from a parent,

01:16:03.600 | like, I really am as toxic as I worried I was.

01:16:07.740 | Right?

01:16:09.720 | And again, if we go back to that pilot thing,

01:16:12.160 | like I think about a pilot,

01:16:13.400 | it's like, we have to make an emergency landing.

01:16:16.600 | We're not gonna be able to go to LA.

01:16:18.620 | And we're all gonna land in Cleveland, whatever it is.

01:16:22.080 | I picture the passenger who's like,

01:16:24.040 | you are going to take us to LA.

01:16:26.960 | And the pilot's like, okay, okay.

01:16:29.240 | Can you imagine?

01:16:30.480 | You're like, it doesn't matter that this person is pissed.

01:16:33.520 | Like, you're the pilot.

01:16:35.800 | You don't have to keep us happy.

01:16:38.440 | Please keep us safe.

01:16:40.040 | And if you're on that plane and you're terrified

01:16:41.920 | because you're like, we have to make an emergency landing,

01:16:43.640 | I promise you, you're way more terrified

01:16:45.960 | when you hear this person change the decision

01:16:48.960 | because of the threat that a passenger

01:16:52.360 | is going to be very, very upset.

01:16:55.060 | And that is actually what we do

01:16:57.040 | when we're walking around on eggshells.

01:16:58.680 | Now, the alternative to this, again,

01:17:00.480 | we live in this world in parenting

01:17:02.240 | where there's a binary, where we say,

01:17:03.840 | and you said it yourself, so I'm gonna lay down the law.

01:17:05.440 | Like, I don't recommend that either.

01:17:06.960 | Like, especially with a kid like that,

01:17:08.720 | that's not gonna be the best solution.

01:17:10.560 | These kids have to be seen as good kids.

01:17:13.320 | They are good kids.

01:17:14.440 | And when I meet with parents of these kids,

01:17:16.720 | I hear about them.

01:17:19.160 | And like, I always say I hear about them.

01:17:20.880 | And I have a kid like this, so I get it.

01:17:22.240 | And I'm just like, I really like your kid.

01:17:24.080 | And they're like, what?

01:17:25.160 | I was like, I do.

01:17:26.160 | And they're like, and then they usually start crying.

01:17:29.600 | And they go, you're literally the first person

01:17:31.960 | in 11 years who's ever said that.

01:17:36.200 | Including, like, the parents.

01:17:39.360 | Like, you like our kid, why?

01:17:41.160 | I'm like, they're tenacious.

01:17:43.120 | They know what they want.

01:17:45.400 | They seem like they have 0% people pleasing in them.

01:17:48.600 | These kids will change the world.

01:17:51.480 | But not if they're boundaryless.

01:17:52.880 | Then they'll become tyrants.

01:17:54.400 | And that's really terrifying.

01:17:56.320 | And I'm gonna teach you how to be the sturdy leader,

01:17:59.400 | which is equally firm, as it is warm.

01:18:02.360 | And that's gonna start today.

01:18:05.520 | And so, like, here's an example

01:18:06.720 | of these deeply-feeling kids.

01:18:08.400 | I think you said something about, like,

01:18:09.240 | watching, like, a TV show, where these kids,

01:18:12.000 | it feels like they hold the family

01:18:13.200 | emotionally hostage, right?

01:18:15.400 | And because if you don't pick the movie

01:18:17.880 | that they wanna watch on family movie night,

01:18:20.040 | they will scream, they will cry,

01:18:21.280 | and they will do that for three hours.

01:18:24.600 | They will.

01:18:25.440 | Other kids after, you know, like,

01:18:26.640 | they don't peter out, these kids.

01:18:28.600 | These kids, interestingly enough,

01:18:30.000 | get in an awful cycle with their parents,

01:18:31.880 | because they have such intense emotions more often,

01:18:35.360 | which more escalations,

01:18:36.680 | which tend to get met with invalidation.

01:18:38.560 | You're so dramatic.

01:18:40.080 | You ruin everything.

01:18:41.800 | They are that much more desperate to be believed.

01:18:44.440 | They escalate further.

01:18:45.920 | You can understand how that will lead to

01:18:47.600 | more distance and invalidation.

01:18:50.040 | And we're off to the races in a bad direction.

01:18:52.360 | And I would say to the parents,

01:18:53.240 | you're gonna, during family movie night,

01:18:54.760 | tomorrow night, this is what you're gonna do.

01:18:56.760 | And you're gonna, by the way, I would say,

01:18:58.120 | this is how concrete I get.

01:18:59.720 | You're gonna write this down,

01:19:00.560 | and you're gonna say it to a voice recorder

01:19:02.160 | with your own voice.

01:19:03.000 | And I want you to play it back,

01:19:03.960 | and see how sturdy you sound.

01:19:05.640 | And they'll often do it, and they'll be like,

01:19:06.700 | wow, I didn't even believe myself when I said that.

01:19:08.520 | I'm so scared of my child, right?

01:19:10.120 | You're gonna do it again.

01:19:10.960 | And then you're gonna do it again.

01:19:11.800 | And this is just like any other skill we practice.

01:19:14.120 | And you're gonna say to your kid,

01:19:15.460 | look, I know in this family, you know,

01:19:17.680 | Bobby, usually we let him pick the movie.

01:19:19.200 | He gets really upset.

01:19:20.120 | If not, we all, tonight's gonna be different.

01:19:22.120 | Bobby, it is your sister's turn to pick the movie.

01:19:26.420 | And I know you're gonna be upset.

01:19:27.520 | And I just wanna tell you exactly what's gonna happen.

01:19:29.360 | And I'm gonna, in this example,

01:19:30.960 | I'm saying there's a two-family household,

01:19:32.320 | which is an assumption, but even if there's one.

01:19:35.080 | Say, if you're super upset and screaming,

01:19:36.840 | I'm going to bring you to your room.

01:19:39.200 | And this is important.

01:19:40.480 | I'm gonna sit with you, and I'm gonna stay there.

01:19:43.920 | And this is a line that I know

01:19:45.880 | from our Deeply Failing Kid workshop has really,

01:19:48.280 | and you have to believe it to say it.

01:19:50.520 | I am not scared of your feelings.

01:19:55.080 | And I know parents will say to me,

01:19:56.920 | Dr. Becky, I am scared of their feelings.

01:20:00.200 | I'm like, yeah, you're gonna fake it till you make it.

01:20:02.200 | They need to hear that.

01:20:03.920 | Because if you think about the image of these kids,

01:20:06.520 | their feelings feel so overpowering to them.

01:20:09.080 | They feel more, but they're actually more

01:20:10.680 | porous to the world, so they both have more coming in.

01:20:14.680 | And they're actually always terrified

01:20:16.100 | of how much of them can flow out.

01:20:17.840 | And so they feel their feelings in that way.

01:20:19.560 | It's almost like my tantrum in the house

01:20:21.160 | takes up the entire living room.

01:20:22.720 | That's why you actually have to bring them to a smaller room.

01:20:25.080 | And you actually have to contain them in that way

01:20:28.680 | as a way of kind of saying, it only goes this far,

01:20:33.360 | like literally.

01:20:34.480 | I will not let you dictate family movie

01:20:37.440 | and always sitting in the front seat

01:20:39.200 | and your favorite chair at dinner.

01:20:41.400 | It only goes this far.

01:20:42.740 | And that is truly an act of love and protection

01:20:46.200 | and safety for those kids.

01:20:48.480 | - How often do you observe that these Deeply Feeling Kids,

01:20:53.360 | is that how they're referred to?

01:20:55.160 | - I made up the term, so, but yeah, Deeply Feeling Kids.

01:20:58.120 | - You are qualified to, qualified to.

01:21:01.000 | So Deeply Feeling Kids also express these deep feelings

01:21:06.000 | in the positive sense.

01:21:09.240 | I mean, 'cause I can think of some kids I grew up with

01:21:11.440 | and I can look at my own experience of like,

01:21:15.460 | it's hard to know, we don't have a calibration point.

01:21:17.440 | It's not like body temperature of like how much I feel

01:21:20.280 | versus how much you feel.

01:21:21.200 | We look at the external expression of these things,

01:21:23.060 | like did the lacrimal glands secrete some tears or not?

01:21:26.460 | Like, you know, as you were talking about this thing

01:21:28.720 | before I'd noticed, I like weld up a little bit

01:21:31.600 | and I'm thinking, yeah, like I can remember seeing things

01:21:33.900 | and feeling things and like, whoa, it's a really big inside.

01:21:37.200 | I don't remember screaming at my parents,

01:21:39.040 | telling them I hate them.

01:21:40.620 | I probably did at some point.

01:21:42.060 | But I have observed other kids, peers that grew up

01:21:47.060 | that clearly fell into this category.

01:21:52.900 | And have gone on to do remarkable things, remarkable,

01:21:56.680 | like extraordinary things because it's a capacity

01:22:00.520 | that doesn't always skew towards a negative expression.

01:22:04.000 | It can also like immense expressions of love.

01:22:07.080 | And, you know, I think these days that there's a tendency

01:22:09.760 | to, for unqualified or like truly unqualified people

01:22:14.760 | because they're not trained to do so,

01:22:16.200 | to slap labels like borderline, right?

01:22:18.380 | Splitting, like good object, bad object, splitting.

01:22:20.680 | And indeed that exists as a diagnosis

01:22:24.160 | and symptoms of borderline.

01:22:26.080 | But that we punish rather than believe and observe

01:22:30.720 | that these things exist.

01:22:31.840 | There's range in nervous system tuning and affect.

01:22:34.480 | And so put simply, do deeply feeling kids

01:22:39.160 | also tend to express love and joy and positive emotions

01:22:44.160 | with the same intensity or near same intensity?

01:22:46.960 | - I would say it depends on like,

01:22:49.880 | it depends on kind of their stage of development

01:22:53.600 | and the nature of the interactions

01:22:55.720 | they've kind of received back.

01:22:57.280 | I think deeply feeling kids, I always say are super sensors.

01:23:00.800 | Like if you have one of these kids

01:23:02.080 | and I have one of these kids, we live in New York City,

01:23:04.040 | she will not go into New York City garage, okay?

01:23:06.480 | Like where we park our car.

01:23:07.600 | And she's like, the smell.

01:23:08.720 | And the rest of us are like, what are you talking about?

01:23:11.120 | Meanwhile, I have another friend who lives

01:23:13.320 | in totally different area of Manhattan

01:23:14.880 | and she's a deeply feeling kid.

01:23:15.800 | She's like, my daughter, the same thing.

01:23:18.680 | Like I actually believe that my daughter smells something

01:23:21.240 | that I don't smell.

01:23:22.920 | Like they are super sensors in that way, right?

01:23:25.120 | And she notices the little detail of something.

01:23:28.520 | Now, in terms of the intense love,

01:23:30.120 | I think for these kids,

01:23:32.240 | their vulnerability sits so close to their shame.

01:23:36.080 | This is why they get so explosive.

01:23:37.680 | They almost experience their feelings as attackers,

01:23:39.880 | which is again, why parents can get scared of them.

01:23:42.600 | And they do.

01:23:43.680 | Because again, they feel that feeling so intensely

01:23:45.920 | that they have this deep fear of abandonment,

01:23:48.520 | of being too much.

01:23:49.800 | And so that shame tries to shut it down,

01:23:52.400 | although it obviously doesn't work and it explodes.

01:23:54.840 | What I've noticed with deeply feeling kids,

01:23:56.840 | and this to me is actually like,

01:23:57.960 | truly my proudest body of work.

01:23:59.840 | And you mentioned borderline, so I'll go there.

01:24:01.480 | People have said like, these sound almost like kids

01:24:04.640 | who are like, have some predilection to borderline.

01:24:09.240 | And obviously having gone to a PhD program,

01:24:11.560 | we're told a lot about invalidating environments

01:24:13.840 | and things like that.

01:24:14.680 | I'm not really one for labels either.

01:24:17.040 | But I just got so much insight from honestly my own kid

01:24:19.600 | where I was like, wow, like she is so different

01:24:22.640 | in how she processes things and what she needs

01:24:24.840 | and how she responds to my very same interactions

01:24:27.320 | as my other kids.

01:24:28.160 | Like they're very different.

01:24:29.920 | And that fear of abandonment and being too much,

01:24:32.440 | it was like they're from the start.

01:24:34.520 | It really feels like it was like there.

01:24:36.960 | What's so interesting is I feel like through working

01:24:39.920 | with her, by the way, in a very different way,

01:24:41.320 | 'cause these kids reject

01:24:42.800 | almost every typical parenting strategy.

01:24:44.920 | You go to validate these kids' feelings,

01:24:47.400 | it's like you're trying to intrude on them

01:24:49.200 | and steal their heart.

01:24:50.040 | Because if you think about their porousness,

01:24:52.280 | they're so terrified of being taken over

01:24:54.080 | that when you're like seeing a feeling,

01:24:55.640 | they feel like you're like seeing into them.

01:24:57.280 | And so they reject you.

01:24:58.920 | I always say, you can't go in the front door

01:25:00.280 | with these kids.

01:25:01.120 | You've gotta like find these side door approaches.

01:25:03.800 | But now of all my kids, she is by far the cuddliest,

01:25:08.800 | the most loving, the most emphatic about our relationship.

01:25:14.040 | This trip now, I'm gonna miss you so much.

01:25:16.640 | The idea when she was four that any of that,

01:25:18.960 | I would say to someone like, you are crazy.

01:25:21.600 | You are talking about a different kid.

01:25:23.200 | So I think that yes, that deep love is there

01:25:28.000 | and we just have to kind of make it a little safer

01:25:30.960 | for those kids to access it.

01:25:32.400 | - Is there any kind of general statements

01:25:37.040 | that one can still make accurately

01:25:39.000 | about differences in the expression

01:25:41.080 | or perhaps even the experience of deeply feeling kids

01:25:44.280 | in boys versus girls?

01:25:45.960 | - Hmm, great question.

01:25:47.880 | I actually haven't noticed a ton, but there might be.

01:25:55.520 | I'd love to look more into that.

01:25:56.760 | But in terms of, I wanna be accurate,

01:25:58.480 | I haven't noticed that yet.

01:25:59.920 | I think one of the things,

01:26:00.920 | you know you have one of these kids

01:26:02.680 | is if you know the moments when you're a parent

01:26:06.320 | where your kid like needs you.

01:26:08.160 | And in those moments, your kids push you away.

01:26:12.600 | They push you away when they need you the most.

01:26:16.220 | If that's like, I think a really common quality

01:26:20.520 | for those kids.

01:26:22.240 | - And how common is this?

01:26:25.640 | I sound like such a, like a biologist,

01:26:28.600 | this deeply feeling kid phenotype.

01:26:30.960 | I don't wanna, you know,

01:26:33.040 | I don't wanna lessen the importance

01:26:36.120 | of what you're saying by saying it that way,

01:26:39.440 | because actually what I think you're saying

01:26:41.120 | is incredibly important,

01:26:42.600 | resonates with me on a lot of different levels in fact.

01:26:45.560 | So, but as far as I know, it's not a DSM diagnosis

01:26:49.920 | and thank goodness it's not,

01:26:51.400 | because that would pathologize it, right?

01:26:53.660 | - Yup.

01:26:54.760 | - So, but you know, of the, you know, in a classroom,

01:26:58.320 | let's say in a big classroom, a hundred kids.

01:27:01.000 | - Yeah.

01:27:02.160 | - How many of those kids,

01:27:03.880 | and I'm guessing it's a continuum,

01:27:05.240 | but would fall into this category of deeply feeling?

01:27:09.320 | - I think you're right, it's a continuum.

01:27:11.180 | And connecting topics I know you've spoken about,

01:27:15.240 | I've been doing a lot of looking into this overlap

01:27:18.720 | with deeply feeling kids and neurodivergence and ADHD.

01:27:23.320 | And what I think is interesting about that

01:27:25.160 | is we have these workshops,

01:27:26.520 | these deeply feeling kid workshops,

01:27:27.720 | and a lot of them we do live

01:27:29.280 | and there's this whole chat, right?

01:27:31.720 | And I'll say these things, people like that, you know,

01:27:33.800 | and they're definitely ideas they haven't heard,

01:27:35.120 | but what I think is more healing

01:27:37.200 | is thousands of people in the chat and saying,

01:27:40.640 | I thought, when I say the hissing thing,

01:27:43.280 | the chat is like a waterfall.

01:27:45.120 | I thought I was the only one.

01:27:46.140 | I thought, so like, there are so many of these kids.

01:27:49.860 | Why I think there's more and more

01:27:51.360 | is something I need to look more into,

01:27:53.000 | but I think it does really,

01:27:54.760 | if you think about these kids as more porous

01:27:56.520 | and you think about how insanely stimulating the world is

01:28:00.040 | that we bring up kids, what comes into them,

01:28:03.620 | it would make sense that I think this is like a growing type.

01:28:07.040 | I'm guessing it's similar with ADHD too.

01:28:09.460 | I have so many more kids diagnosed than in the past.

01:28:11.860 | The world we bring up kids in, the sensory overload,

01:28:14.980 | if you're kind of that much more porous,

01:28:17.660 | that's going to overload your system.

01:28:21.700 | And, you know, and I think that's also

01:28:24.860 | why more and more kids are.

01:28:25.980 | So what's the percentage?

01:28:27.020 | I don't know, like maybe 20?

01:28:30.700 | But don't call me on that. - That's a fairly

01:28:32.060 | high percentage. - I do.

01:28:32.900 | I think it's a fairly high percentage.

01:28:34.260 | - But that feels right.

01:28:35.740 | It just sort of feels right,

01:28:36.960 | based on my observation of adults also.

01:28:38.940 | - Yeah.

01:28:40.520 | - Feels right.

01:28:41.360 | Might also explain a lot of the apparent conflicts

01:28:44.760 | and misunderstandings in adult relationships.

01:28:48.580 | - That's ex, and we, I mean, so many people,

01:28:51.500 | like they'll say to me, I was, oh my goodness.

01:28:53.660 | Like that was like years of therapy for me watching that.

01:28:56.260 | I thought I would took that for my kid.

01:28:57.500 | Like this was me.

01:28:58.340 | And I finally talk about, I believe you.

01:29:00.460 | That's what, I mean, deeply feeling kids are desperate

01:29:03.620 | to be believed and they're desperate for our attempts

01:29:06.460 | to connect with them because their deep fear

01:29:08.780 | is their unlovability.

01:29:10.260 | And so they do reject typical, you know, it's a stance.

01:29:12.920 | Get out of my room.

01:29:13.760 | Fine, you're so difficult.

01:29:15.020 | And then see, I really am as unlovable and bad

01:29:16.940 | as I worried I was, right?

01:29:18.660 | Unless we kind of reverse that cycle.

01:29:20.880 | - I'd be willing to bet my life

01:29:22.060 | that most of the ultra successful performing artists

01:29:25.020 | that we observe, you know, I'm not gonna name names,

01:29:28.460 | but just think of ultra successful

01:29:29.960 | that the people whose words, music, poetry, writing, acting,

01:29:34.640 | presence evokes immense emotion in other people,

01:29:40.540 | so much that people will pay money

01:29:42.920 | to see these people express their emotions

01:29:45.740 | and what's inside them fall

01:29:47.540 | into this deeply feeling category.

01:29:48.940 | - 100%.

01:29:49.780 | - I mean, it just can't be any other way.

01:29:51.660 | - Right.

01:29:52.500 | - Yeah, the muted performer, unless that's the shtick,

01:29:56.900 | so to speak, is just not compelling.

01:29:59.660 | - Yeah.

01:30:00.580 | - Yeah, and a lot of what we're talking today

01:30:02.660 | is about the kind of tuning fork nature of emotions.

01:30:07.160 | It's a, wow, what a tricky balance.

01:30:10.420 | Speaking of that, I'd like to just return

01:30:12.860 | to something I raised earlier, and then I made the mistake.

01:30:15.220 | It was my fault of shutting the hatch on it.

01:30:17.120 | I'd like to reopen that hatch,

01:30:18.760 | which is when there's two parents.

01:30:21.440 | Maybe they're under the same roof, maybe they're not.

01:30:24.480 | Or let's just say two caretakers.

01:30:27.360 | So kids are pretty darn good

01:30:30.840 | at figuring out who to go to for what

01:30:33.180 | and how to balance out negative experiences

01:30:37.400 | by seeking out the positive reinforcement of the other,

01:30:41.180 | sometimes even pitting parents

01:30:42.580 | and caretakers against one another.

01:30:44.300 | I mean, it makes children sound diabolical,

01:30:46.800 | but adults do it too.

01:30:48.840 | It's called gossip.

01:30:52.560 | What can co-parents, co-caretakers do

01:30:57.560 | to try and align strategies,

01:31:02.380 | or if necessary, to offset some bad stuff

01:31:06.520 | that the other parent might be doing?

01:31:07.600 | And in today's landscape,

01:31:08.740 | where it's about 50% of marriages end in divorce,

01:31:11.920 | at least in the US,

01:31:12.960 | you also have the situation

01:31:14.560 | where then there are new significant others come in,

01:31:17.900 | and now you've extended the landscape

01:31:19.660 | to sometimes five or six different parents.

01:31:22.740 | My family's, my biological family,

01:31:25.540 | starting to look like the UN.

01:31:26.580 | We've got so many countries and religions,

01:31:28.100 | and this thing, it's kind of nice on the one hand,

01:31:30.000 | but lots of divergence of opinion

01:31:32.640 | and emotional stance and background.

01:31:34.460 | So how in the world do we wrap our efforts around this?

01:31:38.580 | - Yeah.

01:31:39.700 | So one of the most common questions I get

01:31:43.340 | from a parent at Good Inside is like,

01:31:45.660 | can you convince my partner

01:31:47.560 | why the way they do things is wrong?

01:31:49.420 | And do things more like Good Inside.

01:31:52.020 | And so essentially I always say like,

01:31:53.340 | yeah, I'm not, for a million reasons,

01:31:54.620 | I'm not too interested in taking that phone call.

01:31:57.020 | But-

01:31:58.760 | - Yeah, I don't get involved in couple disputes either.

01:32:01.700 | - But again, assuming,

01:32:02.640 | and you've said this a couple of times, which I love,

01:32:04.260 | I'm assuming the way you're a kind of partner

01:32:07.140 | or the co-parent does things

01:32:08.820 | is not really damaging your child.

01:32:11.080 | Obviously that's really time for an intervention.

01:32:13.060 | - No hitting, no emotional abuse.

01:32:14.420 | - Exactly.

01:32:15.260 | But even I'm not a believer of saying,

01:32:19.300 | for a timeout, right?

01:32:20.420 | Like I don't believe in timeouts and punishments.

01:32:22.100 | I don't think they feel good to kids or parents.

01:32:24.340 | And I also don't think they're effective.

01:32:26.100 | - No, so timeout's not effective.

01:32:28.660 | - I don't think so.

01:32:29.820 | - Okay.

01:32:30.660 | And we probably should have closed the hatch on.

01:32:32.900 | I have to imagine that the going word

01:32:35.700 | in the profession of psychology and raising kids properly

01:32:39.140 | is you never spank them, you never hit them.

01:32:41.580 | - Yeah, no.

01:32:42.420 | - Okay, all right, for the record.

01:32:43.340 | - So maybe we'll get back there,

01:32:44.420 | but just to go on the record,

01:32:45.580 | and I think you can sense from my style,

01:32:48.300 | not punishing for timeouts,

01:32:50.380 | like doesn't mean you're permissive at all.

01:32:53.140 | There's 0% permissive or even softness, I think.

01:32:57.060 | There's softness, there's 0% permissive in those moments,

01:32:59.460 | but we can get back there.

01:33:00.540 | But let's say your partner does do that,

01:33:02.660 | or the co-parent, right?

01:33:04.300 | Like I would be the first to say to someone like,

01:33:07.140 | do I think that that's like messing up your kid?

01:33:09.620 | I don't, I really don't.

01:33:12.180 | Especially if, for example, in that situation,

01:33:16.100 | let's say I'm divorced and my now ex,

01:33:20.140 | I just know that they do timeouts or this,

01:33:22.060 | and I've tried to talk to them,

01:33:23.660 | but whatever, they're not getting on board with the style.

01:33:26.540 | And to me, what happens is like,

01:33:29.100 | you have a kid, they come back to you,

01:33:30.300 | and they're like, "Papa gave me a timeout,

01:33:33.580 | "and we don't do that in my house."

01:33:34.700 | And my first thing is I call my ex.

01:33:37.500 | That's usually what I do.

01:33:38.420 | Or the school did this, and I called the school.

01:33:39.820 | I called the ex, and I'm like, "Why did you do that?

01:33:41.900 | "We don't do that."

01:33:43.700 | What I think is really important,

01:33:45.180 | and I actually find it very like relieving as a parent,

01:33:48.100 | be like, what's actually most important

01:33:50.140 | is helping my kid understand their experience.

01:33:53.100 | Like we center the other person

01:33:56.020 | and what they're doing wrong,

01:33:58.420 | instead of centering our kid.

01:34:00.940 | We might need to call a parent, the other parent,

01:34:03.380 | and say like, "Hey, it would be really great

01:34:05.220 | "to get on the same page.

01:34:06.300 | "Could we do this course together?

01:34:07.980 | "That would just be great.

01:34:08.820 | "You don't have to agree with anything.

01:34:09.700 | "I think that would be great."

01:34:11.100 | But in that moment, what my kid needs, actually,

01:34:13.660 | is more like, wait, that's kind of hard, confusing.

01:34:18.140 | So like in our house, when you do something,

01:34:20.100 | like you scream, "I hate you,"

01:34:22.420 | I intervene in one way.

01:34:23.780 | And when you go to your dad's house,

01:34:25.620 | he intervenes in a very different way.

01:34:27.020 | It's a lot of like,

01:34:28.420 | that's a lot of switching to make sense of.

01:34:30.620 | Or maybe my kid says,

01:34:33.380 | "Mom never apologizes to me after she yells."

01:34:36.340 | And I would call, or maybe it's my own wife,

01:34:38.980 | and I'm like, "Hey, you know the importance of repair.

01:34:41.400 | "Haven't you listened to all this literature?"

01:34:44.080 | You know, I would like to have some influence on that.

01:34:46.980 | But what I feel like my kid needs in the moment

01:34:49.360 | is more like, "Tell me what happened.

01:34:51.300 | "Oh, oh, she yelled at you."

01:34:53.800 | And yeah, look, something I know mom was,

01:34:57.240 | I know she had a really stressful day at work.

01:34:58.860 | And look, this isn't your responsibility,

01:35:00.980 | but you can just know this.

01:35:01.900 | Mom has a really hard time apologizing to her,

01:35:05.440 | has a really hard time apologizing.

01:35:07.600 | And actually, when people have a hard time apologizing,

01:35:09.620 | they seem cold and they don't care,

01:35:11.900 | they actually usually just feel so ashamed of what they did.

01:35:14.920 | And the reason I'm telling you that

01:35:16.220 | is not because you have to take care of her,

01:35:18.120 | but just so you know, this so wasn't you.

01:35:20.480 | And any time something happens with mom

01:35:22.700 | that doesn't feel good,

01:35:24.140 | and you feel like you can't resolve it,

01:35:25.240 | you can talk to me.

01:35:26.080 | And I'm gonna get out of role play for a sec,

01:35:27.680 | but I think you can see,

01:35:28.520 | I'm not throwing my wife under the bus at all.

01:35:32.540 | But I'm centering what my kid needs.

01:35:35.100 | What my kid needs, going back,

01:35:36.400 | is they need to process that experience with an adult

01:35:40.360 | they feel safe with, rather than being aloneness.

01:35:43.600 | And I often picture this kid on the couch

01:35:45.680 | who tells me a problem at their dad's house or at school,

01:35:48.680 | and I go off to make a call,

01:35:50.320 | and I picture them alone being like,

01:35:52.000 | "Oh, now I'm alone, I didn't really want you to go do that.

01:35:55.720 | I just wanted you to listen to me."

01:35:58.520 | There might then be a step, too,

01:36:00.600 | to kind of get on the same page.

01:36:02.060 | Or when parents say, "Get on the same page,"

01:36:04.000 | I think the problem is that we're not looking

01:36:06.400 | at the same page.

01:36:07.240 | Forget getting on the same page.

01:36:08.480 | We're not even speaking the same language.

01:36:10.840 | People will say to me,

01:36:11.680 | "My partner won't even watch a video with me.

01:36:13.680 | I just wanna, even if they disagree."

01:36:15.400 | That is the problem.

01:36:16.360 | And frankly, that's not a parenting problem.

01:36:18.920 | That's also what I'll say to someone.

01:36:20.440 | If you say to your partner,

01:36:22.220 | "Look, I've been a member of Good Inside

01:36:24.160 | and it's been really helpful and it resonates,

01:36:26.380 | and you don't have to agree with it,

01:36:27.800 | but I would love to watch this four-minute video."

01:36:31.140 | If your partner says no, that has nothing to do

01:36:34.300 | with parenting, that is a core relationship problem,

01:36:37.700 | that they just don't care to do something

01:36:40.060 | that you say is important to you.

01:36:41.460 | That's a marriage problem.

01:36:43.540 | That's all, right?

01:36:44.960 | And I think it's really important.

01:36:46.220 | And we talk about this a lot.

01:36:47.340 | If that was someone I'd coach them to say,

01:36:49.200 | "Hey, and you don't have to agree,

01:36:51.100 | but if you don't commit to watching a four-minute video

01:36:53.980 | with me and just talking about it a little bit,

01:36:55.660 | and I promise I'll try not to be judgy or prove-y,

01:36:58.300 | I'll just listen,

01:37:00.580 | I don't really think we're talking about parenting.

01:37:01.620 | I think you're telling me you don't really respect me enough

01:37:04.620 | to do the things I'm asking you to do."

01:37:06.460 | And that'll stick with me.

01:37:09.320 | That's the way I'd handle it.

01:37:10.820 | - Yeah, this is very helpful.

01:37:13.500 | I'm curious about these ADHD diagnoses/kids,

01:37:20.020 | 'cause there's a lot of loose hand diagnosis these days.

01:37:25.180 | Years ago, I was a camp counselor, took kids backpacking,

01:37:29.420 | and I learned an important concept

01:37:31.300 | of when working with adolescent and teenage boys,

01:37:35.340 | which is be a channel, not a dam.

01:37:39.020 | When they're super energetic, they're not sitting still.

01:37:43.600 | Where it's not nap time, there's just no way.

01:37:46.420 | So this notion of getting it out,

01:37:48.900 | like allowing some place for physical

01:37:51.260 | or emotional catharsis that's safe, obviously,

01:37:53.940 | and that kids have a lot of energy.

01:37:56.940 | I mean, dammit, the adult population

01:37:58.860 | seems to be trying to regress themselves

01:38:01.220 | to have that energy.

01:38:02.480 | So how can we blame them for having so much energy?

01:38:04.900 | And of course, there are children who have,

01:38:07.620 | and adults with clinically diagnosed ADHD

01:38:10.180 | that really struggle.

01:38:11.660 | But for the kid that's more energetic,

01:38:16.660 | maybe even has a hard time sitting still

01:38:18.940 | to the point of discomfort,

01:38:20.380 | and when the rest of the world that we can't control

01:38:23.140 | is telling them, "Hey, your kid needs to be regulated

01:38:27.660 | on the subway, on the bus, in the classroom."

01:38:29.900 | What are some things that we can do

01:38:32.660 | in terms of communication with those kids?

01:38:35.420 | And probably some of those kids are listening as well.

01:38:39.100 | And to just be a channel, not a dam,

01:38:41.500 | to allow their best expression to come forward.

01:38:44.420 | - Yeah.

01:38:45.300 | I mean, I love this idea in general.

01:38:47.140 | It's much more effective to tell anyone what they can do

01:38:52.840 | rather than telling them what they can't do.

01:38:55.380 | Across the board with kids,

01:38:56.420 | because there's usually a can, that is possible.

01:38:59.740 | And then you can work with the urge instead of,

01:39:03.140 | I don't even know, trying to suppress it

01:39:04.740 | or have it not act itself out.

01:39:06.140 | It's like, our urges and feelings, our forces,

01:39:08.700 | they're gonna come out.

01:39:10.660 | And so, yes, I think this idea of me and my kid

01:39:13.560 | are on the same team here.

01:39:14.700 | I think that's so important to start with.

01:39:16.280 | Any kid, definitely, if you have a kid

01:39:17.740 | with some intentional struggles, we're on the same team.

01:39:20.900 | You can so easily get into me against you.

01:39:22.920 | And then you look to shut down everything about them.

01:39:25.440 | But yeah, we're on the same team.

01:39:26.560 | So let's say it's hard to do homework right now.

01:39:28.400 | I see you, okay, let's take an amount of time.

01:39:32.100 | And it seems like you have a lot of energy.

01:39:34.640 | Let's do some heavy work or let's run outside.

01:39:38.180 | And maybe homework always has to start

01:39:40.960 | after a period like that.

01:39:42.660 | Maybe they need a break.

01:39:43.820 | But this idea of, yes, I'm working with my kid

01:39:47.560 | as opposed to against my kid

01:39:49.940 | is always gonna be more successful.

01:39:53.000 | - Do you think that some of the new emerging tools,

01:39:55.620 | some of which I've talked a lot about,

01:39:57.860 | but many, many people have talked a lot about,

01:40:00.640 | things like meditation,

01:40:02.840 | kids doing some long exhale breathing.

01:40:05.080 | In addition to the way I grew up,

01:40:08.500 | it was like pee time or recess time.

01:40:10.060 | You're like running around like crazy.

01:40:11.280 | And do you think that these tools

01:40:14.780 | are helping kids get some self-regulation

01:40:18.200 | or is whatever self-regulation

01:40:21.380 | they're gaining offset by the fact

01:40:23.520 | that there's just so much more input.

01:40:26.800 | We hear so much about the challenges of social media

01:40:29.560 | for adults, but certainly for kids.

01:40:32.200 | Bullying, obviously being one of the more salient ones,

01:40:38.020 | but also just the fact that when they go home at night

01:40:40.100 | and they're in bed,

01:40:40.940 | they're potentially still in interactions

01:40:42.420 | with their friends.

01:40:43.260 | We used to have a phone landline

01:40:44.620 | that we'd sometimes call one another on,

01:40:46.760 | but I wasn't really much of a phone kid with my friends.

01:40:50.760 | So when you're home, you're home.

01:40:53.000 | You were separated from all of that.

01:40:55.200 | I mean, how bad is it?

01:40:57.860 | And what are some things

01:41:00.080 | that parents and kids might consider?

01:41:02.680 | - Yeah, to me, meditation, things like that,

01:41:04.720 | like always like icing on the cake.

01:41:07.200 | Like that's always helpful.

01:41:08.360 | And certainly like teaching kids real tools.

01:41:11.640 | Like those are like literally something I can do.

01:41:14.000 | I've learned this meditation.

01:41:15.160 | I have a mantra, something like that, like huge fan, right?

01:41:17.800 | You have to be able to like touch it in some way.

01:41:20.200 | But to me, I think what's coming up

01:41:21.540 | is you bring up this larger point

01:41:24.000 | and it actually goes back to where we started.

01:41:25.440 | It's like the cost to children

01:41:29.840 | of parents not being able to set boundaries

01:41:32.280 | has never been higher.

01:41:33.480 | And at the same time,

01:41:35.440 | it's never been harder for parents to set boundaries.

01:41:37.760 | And I think this stuff starts way before social media.

01:41:40.920 | Like to me, when I think about the earliest years

01:41:42.460 | of a kid's life,

01:41:43.560 | you get so much bang for your buck in life

01:41:48.520 | from helping kids just learn to tolerate frustration.

01:41:52.160 | And so much of kids' early life right now

01:41:54.560 | in the world we live in

01:41:55.800 | is all about the immediate escape from frustration.

01:41:59.480 | And not only escape from frustration,

01:42:01.640 | but from frustration to gratification in like an instant.

01:42:04.760 | It's like so fast, like how did that just happen?

01:42:06.840 | Like it didn't used to be like that.

01:42:08.040 | There wasn't even an option.

01:42:09.080 | Like me and you, like, I don't know, you wanted a movie.

01:42:11.600 | Like, I don't know,

01:42:12.480 | maybe your parent could drive you to Blockbuster

01:42:14.280 | if you had an account.

01:42:15.340 | And then like, maybe, I don't know,

01:42:17.200 | I remember going and be like, are they going to have it?

01:42:19.560 | Are they going to have it?

01:42:20.760 | And then you see the thing and there's nothing behind it.

01:42:22.520 | And you're like, they don't have it.

01:42:24.280 | That whole thing- - Blockbuster, by the way,

01:42:25.540 | was a video store.

01:42:26.580 | Just kidding, I'm just totally kidding.

01:42:28.120 | I'm totally kidding.

01:42:29.000 | But some are out there,

01:42:29.920 | like I sometimes do this to myself, you know?

01:42:32.340 | Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:33.180 | I used to love going to pick out movies at the VHS store.

01:42:37.560 | - But if you think about that as one tiny thing,

01:42:39.560 | it's obviously tiny,

01:42:40.400 | and you think about like, I remember that in my childhood.

01:42:42.740 | Anything about that tiny moment

01:42:44.120 | compared to some parallel in a kid.

01:42:47.160 | The, there's no frustration.

01:42:49.240 | The want and the gratification, there's zero space.

01:42:53.020 | There is zero space.

01:42:54.820 | And also I have to say our generation of parents,

01:42:57.880 | and me too, 100% me too,

01:43:00.440 | our tolerance for frustration has gone way down

01:43:02.660 | because of the gratification world we live in,

01:43:04.880 | which means our tolerance of our kids' tantrums

01:43:08.760 | is at an all time low.

01:43:10.020 | Because we're like, hey, my life is like pretty easy

01:43:11.940 | in a lot of ways.

01:43:12.780 | This is like a massive inconvenience.

01:43:14.080 | So kids have more gratification than ever.

01:43:17.600 | We have lower tolerances for frustration.

01:43:21.560 | Everyone does.

01:43:22.580 | Which means the way we interact with kids

01:43:24.880 | over and over and over,

01:43:26.160 | plus just the natural things they're exposed to or not,

01:43:29.260 | like Netflix versus Blockbuster,

01:43:32.660 | just means like their circuitry around expectations

01:43:36.960 | and what feels good.

01:43:38.460 | Like to me, that's what really, it scares me.

01:43:42.540 | It does.

01:43:43.380 | And like figuring out how to tolerate

01:43:48.380 | or even insert, like literally insert frustration

01:43:54.760 | into your kid's life as early as possible,

01:43:59.160 | to me is like, is of critical importance.

01:44:02.220 | - I could not agree more.

01:44:05.200 | And I say that with the understanding

01:44:07.120 | that I have also shortened the latency

01:44:09.240 | in my reward prediction errors,

01:44:10.760 | which is nerd speak for when I want to watch a movie,

01:44:13.940 | I go into Netflix and they're like, it's near infinite.

01:44:18.140 | And I can get right then.

01:44:20.240 | The internet's a little slow.

01:44:21.560 | Then I start barking about how slow internet

01:44:23.380 | is worse than no internet.

01:44:24.560 | And that, you know, you start observing yourself

01:44:26.020 | and you just go, oh my goodness, like what's going on?

01:44:28.540 | I mean, the ability to tolerate different wait times

01:44:33.540 | between anticipation and reward is so critical.

01:44:37.020 | And that's what getting a degree is about.

01:44:39.060 | That's what doing anything challenging is about.

01:44:41.800 | I've gone on record saying that too much dopamine

01:44:46.260 | without effort exerted in order to get that dopamine

01:44:50.020 | is very detrimental.

01:44:52.920 | - Well, that to me and all the screen time

01:44:55.240 | kind of discussion, there was so much screen time

01:44:56.960 | in social media and like all the things

01:44:59.020 | that screen time do for kids.

01:45:01.900 | And again, like my kids watch TV and they're young

01:45:03.860 | and they have iPads.

01:45:04.700 | Like I'm so not a purist, I'm a pragmatist.

01:45:06.680 | And whoever's listening to this,

01:45:07.880 | no one messed up their kids forever.

01:45:09.380 | So we can just, like we were talking about before,

01:45:11.460 | use this information to make slightly different decisions

01:45:13.980 | on the margin.

01:45:14.820 | That's the best it gets.

01:45:15.720 | But I think about this a lot.

01:45:17.180 | When our kids are especially young

01:45:18.240 | and they're building this circuitry around like,

01:45:20.620 | what does it mean to get success?

01:45:22.540 | Like what are my expectations there?

01:45:24.580 | How much effort do I have to put in?

01:45:27.100 | And I think about like a young kid, you know,

01:45:29.620 | playing some mindless, just dopamine giving game.

01:45:33.180 | The circuit they learn is like, mindlessness, zero effort,

01:45:38.180 | dopamine.

01:45:39.200 | And then I think, and I find this really interesting,

01:45:43.800 | like how many people say like their kid is six now,

01:45:48.360 | having a really hard time learning how to read.

01:45:50.800 | And they're getting all these learning assessments

01:45:52.160 | and the learning assessments are coming back,

01:45:53.920 | like no dyslexia, right?

01:45:56.080 | And I know some of these families,

01:45:56.920 | and I say this with love, is I literally think

01:45:59.280 | this is the first time in this kid's life

01:46:03.460 | that they kind of have to put like concerted effort

01:46:07.020 | without in the moment success.

01:46:10.140 | And so, yeah, that like, that looks like a lot of things.

01:46:15.640 | It can even present like ADHD, right?

01:46:20.060 | Because you know, it can present like that, it might be.

01:46:23.020 | But it might also just be that these dopamine circuits

01:46:26.380 | have developed in a way that's not conducive

01:46:30.860 | with something like learning how to read, right?

01:46:33.480 | And so when parents ask me now, like I know reading

01:46:36.320 | and academic skills, like what can I do

01:46:37.760 | when my kids are younger, I got them flashcards,

01:46:39.520 | no flashcards, like, I mean, you can get flashcards,

01:46:41.480 | that's fine, it's not like detrimental.

01:46:42.860 | But to me, it's like, well, what is my kid's relationship

01:46:45.740 | with frustration?

01:46:47.280 | Because I think about this thing called like

01:46:49.080 | the learning space, again, I'm visual,

01:46:51.280 | like there's not knowing how to do something

01:46:53.540 | and then there's successfully doing something.

01:46:56.240 | And the space in between is like the learning space,

01:46:58.540 | that's what learning is.

01:46:59.480 | And the learning space inherently is frustrating.

01:47:03.160 | That's like the right feeling to be feeling.

01:47:05.580 | And when kids have learned to collapse those two things,

01:47:09.880 | then like they don't have a lot of space to learn.

01:47:12.920 | Versus, I don't know, even like I'm thinking about my kid

01:47:18.220 | who wants to like draw a rainbow or sun when they're young.

01:47:21.860 | And they're like, that doesn't look like a sun.

01:47:23.680 | It would be easy for me to be like,

01:47:25.040 | let me just do that for you.

01:47:26.100 | And by the way, yes, I give myself permission

01:47:28.480 | to do that sometimes.

01:47:29.320 | And I was like, I can't deal with this.

01:47:30.440 | I've got other things to do.

01:47:31.860 | But sometimes I think like long and that long-term greedy,

01:47:35.240 | like, oh, this is gonna be the same circuit

01:47:38.220 | for learning how to read.

01:47:39.580 | It is, and for learning how to do that project.

01:47:42.400 | And what if my only goal, forget them drawing a sun

01:47:45.960 | and I've got to tolerate the whining.

01:47:47.660 | My only goal was just to lengthen the amount of time

01:47:50.680 | they let themselves be in that learning space.

01:47:53.040 | That's it.

01:47:53.880 | Because I think we know as adults,

01:47:55.820 | it's not about getting to success.

01:47:57.120 | That comes when it comes.

01:47:58.400 | The longer amount of time you let yourself

01:48:01.400 | be in that learning space,

01:48:02.760 | the more successful you can be with hard things.

01:48:04.640 | 'Cause like, it just is right.

01:48:05.880 | You just got to traverse through.

01:48:07.920 | And so to me, that's like, honestly,

01:48:09.240 | one of the things I'm most passionate about teaching parents

01:48:11.160 | is like, literally like,

01:48:12.400 | what do you do during that time then?

01:48:13.880 | How do I change what my goal is?

01:48:15.380 | If my goal is to stop my kid's tantrum,

01:48:17.660 | I'm gonna collapse it.

01:48:18.820 | But if my goal is just to lengthen that,

01:48:20.880 | I might do something very different.

01:48:22.000 | Oh, drawing a circle, that's not your right.

01:48:24.720 | You didn't want to draw that.

01:48:26.360 | Oh, drawing a circle is so hard.

01:48:28.400 | And my kids, can you do it for me?

01:48:29.900 | Can you do that?

01:48:30.740 | Like, of course, sometimes I will.

01:48:32.200 | But I might say like, I'm not gonna do it, sweetie.

01:48:36.280 | I'm not, you know why?

01:48:37.400 | Because I know you can do this a little more.

01:48:40.360 | I have faith in you.

01:48:42.400 | And I think this is so powerful to say to kids,

01:48:45.160 | this is so frustrating.

01:48:47.380 | And that's the exact way you should be feeling.

01:48:51.080 | We don't want our kids to be,

01:48:52.920 | that's the right feeling.

01:48:54.160 | I'll even draw that learning space visual.

01:48:56.760 | This is where you are, you're doing an amazing job.

01:49:01.240 | And it is actually interesting when kids are young,

01:49:03.920 | like they actually do adopt that.

01:49:06.340 | Like someone said to me,

01:49:07.180 | "I've been doing this stuff for a while."

01:49:08.280 | My kid literally says to me,

01:49:10.300 | "I like to do hard things, Mom."

01:49:13.160 | Like they believe it.

01:49:14.360 | Like that's an amazing self-belief

01:49:16.280 | to develop in a kid. - That's awesome.

01:49:17.800 | - Right? - That's awesome.

01:49:18.640 | - So yes, I think this stuff,

01:49:19.960 | especially compared to how easy it is

01:49:23.960 | to get that gratification,

01:49:26.160 | it's like more important than ever to have an offset.

01:49:28.760 | - Yeah, I'm doing my best to get the word out into the world

01:49:33.700 | that the only reason the brain changes at all

01:49:35.780 | is if there is these neuromodulators

01:49:40.620 | like epinephrine, adrenaline in the body and brain,

01:49:43.920 | because that's what signals

01:49:44.880 | that the nervous system needs to change.

01:49:46.900 | If something can be accomplished,

01:49:48.880 | there's no reason for the nervous system to change

01:49:50.760 | by definition.

01:49:51.900 | There's also, I don't want to spin off

01:49:53.040 | into a neuroscience of resilience and willpower lesson here,

01:49:57.680 | but there's some amazing literature

01:49:58.960 | that shows that there's this area of the brain,

01:50:02.380 | the anterior mid-singulate cortex,

01:50:03.920 | which is activated when people do things

01:50:06.760 | they don't want to do.

01:50:08.040 | And it generalizes to other things.

01:50:11.800 | But this is not the, I love to work out,

01:50:13.680 | so I'm going to work out.

01:50:15.380 | This is the, I hate to work out and I do it anyway.

01:50:17.840 | And it translates to success in academic endeavors,

01:50:22.000 | success in all sorts of environments.

01:50:24.360 | And so I think the beauty of it

01:50:26.320 | is that this brain structure is highly plastic

01:50:28.360 | and can be built up through one thing

01:50:30.280 | and that translates to others.

01:50:31.360 | So doing hard things,

01:50:32.840 | experiencing what I call limbic friction,

01:50:35.680 | just as a gateway to learning,

01:50:38.000 | just understanding that it always feels hard,

01:50:41.240 | that that's what learning is.

01:50:43.020 | In fact, I can remember in graduate school,

01:50:44.960 | even as a young adult, my mid-20s,

01:50:47.240 | I was struggling with an analysis

01:50:50.060 | and my graduate advisor, she was wonderful this way.

01:50:52.660 | And I said, she clearly knew how to do it.

01:50:54.140 | And I said, "Can you explain how to do this?"

01:50:57.900 | And she goes, "No."

01:50:59.180 | I was like, "Just get done."

01:51:02.060 | And she's like, "No, it's called learning."

01:51:04.920 | And I just walked out.

01:51:05.760 | She was also a great parent to her children.

01:51:08.500 | And I also tried to get adopted by her and that failed,

01:51:10.940 | so I'm- - Third time's the charm.

01:51:12.740 | - Exactly, my poor parents, they did their best

01:51:16.280 | and I'm grateful to them for many things.

01:51:18.020 | But I think that, including the encouragement

01:51:20.780 | to do hard things, do things that suck,

01:51:23.180 | that are beneficial for us.

01:51:25.460 | So it's a knife edge, right?

01:51:27.220 | Now I'm reflecting, it's like, do things that suck.

01:51:30.520 | I believe you, it sucks.

01:51:32.800 | And then what did my mom used to say a lot?

01:51:35.580 | Hate me now, love me later.

01:51:37.020 | I loved her then and I love her now.

01:51:39.820 | But yeah, there were moments where I was like,

01:51:40.940 | "I hate that you're making me do this."

01:51:43.520 | I don't know about the hate me now, love me later.

01:51:46.820 | Old school.

01:51:47.920 | But- - But I think

01:51:50.060 | what she was trying to say is,

01:51:50.900 | "I have your best interest in mind."

01:51:52.500 | - Definitely. - That's right.

01:51:53.660 | - Definitely, yeah, no, definitely.

01:51:55.980 | - Can I say one thing just 'cause it's loud in my head.

01:51:58.980 | - Please, please.

01:51:59.820 | - One of the things, I think it's easy

01:52:02.220 | and I'm hearing myself, we hear this

01:52:04.340 | and I think it's easy to listen and be like,

01:52:05.720 | "Oh man, I never thought about it that way."

01:52:07.500 | Or, "I didn't know that."

01:52:08.720 | Or again, we just spiral as a parent so fast.

01:52:10.580 | It's like, "I messed up my kid forever."

01:52:11.980 | Nobody messed up their kid forever.

01:52:13.260 | It doesn't matter how old, that is just not true.

01:52:15.140 | And this is where I think we can spiral into like,

01:52:17.900 | "Yeah, what's wrong with me?"

01:52:19.300 | And I kind of asked parents in this situation

01:52:21.860 | to come with me to a different location,

01:52:24.720 | which is kind of anger.

01:52:26.420 | And I have started to feel angry

01:52:28.200 | and I think anger tells us what we need.

01:52:30.860 | So I'm like, "Well, what is that anger telling me?"

01:52:34.060 | It is messed up, the system is stacked against us

01:52:37.100 | that when you become a parent,

01:52:38.680 | it is literally the hardest, most confusing,

01:52:41.820 | most triggering, most important job we have.

01:52:45.080 | And we are given zero resources, right?

01:52:49.900 | Like nobody I know would tell a surgeon

01:52:54.400 | who never went to med school and was struggling at surgery

01:52:57.260 | that they were a bad surgeon.

01:52:58.300 | They'd be like, "Wow, you probably deserve

01:53:02.460 | to go to med school and residency, by the way.

01:53:04.980 | That's an important job you have."

01:53:06.700 | And so I think it's easy to listen to all this

01:53:09.040 | and spiral into like, "Oh no."

01:53:10.940 | But I'd ask you to almost feel a little protective,

01:53:14.060 | helpful anger next to it, which is like,

01:53:16.700 | "Wow, yes, this is an important job I have.

01:53:19.340 | This is complicated.

01:53:20.520 | And maybe there are resources out there that I deserve."

01:53:24.280 | And I think that's the perspective

01:53:26.320 | I would ask parents to listen from.

01:53:28.260 | - Earlier, you described the job of parenting

01:53:30.220 | as boundaries, imparting boundaries,

01:53:33.460 | as well as empathy and validation.

01:53:35.560 | I just want to remind people that your very basic

01:53:38.820 | but very practical job description for parenting

01:53:43.100 | is something that I think we can return to

01:53:44.820 | over and over again.

01:53:46.100 | It also makes me wonder,

01:53:47.360 | in thinking about the generalizability of these concepts

01:53:52.760 | to other forms of relationship,

01:53:54.400 | what about the relationship to self, right?

01:53:57.020 | It's something we don't often talk about.

01:53:59.820 | Relationship to self, we want to have boundaries

01:54:03.340 | and we also want to be able to empathize

01:54:05.580 | and validate ourselves.

01:54:07.340 | - Yeah.

01:54:08.180 | And I think, right, like, I don't know,

01:54:09.620 | my friend didn't invite me.

01:54:11.700 | I don't know, I found out she had five friends for a dinner

01:54:14.140 | and I was like, "Oh, you know, I'm so hurt."

01:54:16.100 | I would say to myself, "I believe myself,

01:54:18.820 | like I'm allowed to feel that way."

01:54:20.700 | I think our feelings love when we tell them they make sense.

01:54:22.900 | I just think there's something magical about that phrase.

01:54:24.580 | It makes sense I'm upset.

01:54:25.740 | I mean, my friends were all there and I wasn't.

01:54:27.940 | That makes sense.

01:54:29.340 | And there's a boundary, 'cause when my feeling tells me,

01:54:32.780 | well, I'm about to plan a dinner party for 200 people

01:54:35.820 | and invite everyone I know but her.

01:54:37.700 | I feel like there's an important,

01:54:38.540 | and I'm like, "You know what feeling,

01:54:39.660 | like I'm not gonna let you go that far."

01:54:42.140 | And the image I always think about is like,

01:54:44.380 | I'm the driver of my car

01:54:45.660 | and all the different feelings and urges,

01:54:47.500 | like they're passengers

01:54:48.980 | and we can't get them out of the car.

01:54:50.340 | You just can't, they're in your body

01:54:51.740 | but you don't wanna let them take over the driver's seat.

01:54:55.220 | That's really what it is.

01:54:56.140 | And as long as they're a passenger,

01:54:57.660 | they actually won't cause you that many problems.

01:54:59.180 | They'll be annoying.

01:55:00.180 | And to me, that's like, "Hey, I see you, like I see you."

01:55:02.540 | And I will often say hi to my feelings for that reason,

01:55:05.100 | like high anxiety that woke me up at four in the morning,

01:55:07.860 | you know, like, yes, there's a lot of my mind, hi.

01:55:11.460 | And then there's like a boundary,

01:55:12.700 | like you're not, like you're a part of me and not all of me.

01:55:15.360 | So I think that phrase for regulating our own feelings,

01:55:17.940 | you're a part of me and not all of me

01:55:19.900 | is the essence of validating and having a boundary.

01:55:24.860 | - What about our need, I think healthy need

01:55:27.860 | to know whether or not the lesson stuck?

01:55:31.220 | So I've observed this before,

01:55:33.220 | kid is catastrophizing about an upcoming event,

01:55:36.020 | maybe a concert or a test or a homework thing

01:55:38.900 | or a social thing.

01:55:40.300 | And like, we're using all our best tools

01:55:43.180 | to try and help them.

01:55:44.420 | And I believe you, I hear you then.

01:55:46.500 | And they go through the experience and they do pretty well,

01:55:49.380 | maybe even great.

01:55:50.940 | And then we say like, "Did you notice?

01:55:53.000 | You were so concerned before and you did it.

01:55:56.540 | You really did it."

01:55:57.380 | Is there something that we can or should do

01:55:59.540 | to try and stamp down that recognition?

01:56:02.020 | Because one thing that's so beautiful about childhood

01:56:04.900 | is the short-term horizon nature of childhood

01:56:08.180 | in which kind of like, I mean, we talk about, you know,

01:56:10.920 | adults trying to take it one day at a time

01:56:12.520 | or even half a day at a time.

01:56:13.460 | And kids are navigating on the basis of like

01:56:15.740 | first period class, second barrier class.

01:56:19.220 | I mean, their horizon is often very close in.

01:56:24.220 | And I do wonder if they're internalizing

01:56:28.760 | these more global lessons on their own

01:56:31.980 | or whether or not we should try and help them internalize

01:56:35.520 | what they just did.

01:56:36.360 | Like, do you get it?

01:56:37.460 | You were super concerned.

01:56:39.340 | You were like almost dissolving

01:56:40.980 | into a puddle of your own tears.

01:56:42.260 | And I believe you, that was the appropriate response then.

01:56:45.340 | And now you did it, like, think about that.

01:56:48.060 | Is it good that we reinforce those wins?

01:56:53.060 | - Yeah, I mean, I think our kids do internalize

01:56:56.460 | kind of the patterns, right?

01:56:58.460 | But I hear you, there are these moments,

01:56:59.920 | it's almost like we wanna like encapsulate it for them.

01:57:02.140 | Like, hey, that was the thing, right?

01:57:03.860 | I think kids pick up on whether our interactions

01:57:06.660 | were doing something for them or for us.

01:57:08.940 | So if it's from a like, hey, that thing I taught you

01:57:10.940 | was really helpful, right?

01:57:12.060 | Like, it would just be like, if my husband was like,

01:57:14.280 | hey, your presentation went well

01:57:15.340 | because I like told you to do that thing.

01:57:17.220 | And I'd be like, stop talking to me, right?

01:57:19.640 | But if he said to me, hey, like, what was it

01:57:22.020 | that led to that?

01:57:22.860 | It's probably like, that's helpful to talk out.

01:57:24.380 | You know, I'd be much more open.

01:57:26.220 | So I love the phrase going back to like just real tools,

01:57:28.980 | I'm noticing.

01:57:30.020 | I think actually often we wanna praise our kids

01:57:31.860 | or tell something, just saying I'm noticing,

01:57:34.320 | 'cause again, we wanna be seen.

01:57:36.540 | We don't wanna feel controlled.

01:57:38.660 | I'm noticing does that.

01:57:39.740 | Like, hey, I'm noticing you were so worried about this test.

01:57:42.420 | We kind of talked about this way

01:57:43.600 | of like talking to your anxiety.

01:57:45.160 | And then I'm just noticing you like felt really good

01:57:48.460 | about how it went.

01:57:49.800 | Like even that, I think,

01:57:50.960 | 'cause that's like the biggest thing now

01:57:52.980 | in our like crazy fast world we live in

01:57:55.060 | is just pausing to notice.

01:57:56.620 | That's already like encapsulating.

01:57:58.680 | Or saying to your kid,

01:57:59.980 | and I think like a question's only a question

01:58:03.220 | when you don't know the answer, right?

01:58:04.720 | Like sometimes we ask, they have question marks,

01:58:07.100 | but it's like a statement or a criticism.

01:58:09.440 | So if we say to our kid,

01:58:11.540 | that thing I taught you was really helpful, right?

01:58:15.820 | Do you think that was helpful?

01:58:17.380 | That's not really a question.

01:58:18.440 | We already have an answer.

01:58:19.280 | But if I say, hey, like I just thought it would be good

01:58:21.760 | for us to talk through for a second,

01:58:22.980 | like what was it you think that like led you

01:58:26.060 | to really feel good that day in the test?

01:58:28.060 | Then like if I really don't know what my kid could say,

01:58:30.480 | I think they'll receive it.

01:58:31.540 | And then they might say like,

01:58:32.760 | oh, is that thing we talked about?

01:58:33.980 | I'm like, that's so great to know.

01:58:35.180 | I'm even thinking about Spanish coming up.

01:58:36.820 | And like I wonder, do you think that would,

01:58:38.740 | I wonder is also a great phrase for parents.

01:58:41.020 | Just wondering, I wonder if that would be helpful there.

01:58:43.320 | Again, they just like lower defensiveness

01:58:45.420 | 'cause there's, maybe there's like movement with wondering.

01:58:48.020 | It doesn't feel controlling.

01:58:49.880 | So yeah, I think there is, like those are nice moments

01:58:52.340 | if it comes from a place of like connection,

01:58:54.520 | not from control.

01:58:55.540 | - That makes sense.

01:58:58.320 | We had a guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett,

01:59:00.980 | who's a world expert in emotions.

01:59:02.860 | And she explained that in cultures

01:59:05.460 | where there's more nuanced language for different emotions,

01:59:08.960 | rather than the, what I call the emojification of emotions,

01:59:13.880 | there's better emotion tolerance.

01:59:16.140 | So understanding that it's not just sad, happy, depressed,

01:59:20.020 | thrilled, but there's a lot of nuance.

01:59:22.300 | It's very context dependent, can be very useful.

01:59:25.880 | Do you think there's something to be gained

01:59:27.260 | from letting kids explore the range of emotions,

01:59:32.260 | not just, you know, how do you feel good or bad?

01:59:36.020 | I mean, most adults need to learn

01:59:37.180 | that good or bad are valuations.

01:59:38.600 | That's not actually an emotion.

01:59:40.640 | It's not actually an expression of how you feel,

01:59:42.420 | but that's what we do over shorthand.

01:59:44.300 | You know, do you think that,

01:59:48.400 | let's just say in the United States,

01:59:50.580 | but elsewhere perhaps as well,

01:59:52.520 | that there's some value to teaching kids to pay attention,

01:59:56.120 | like what is going on inside?

01:59:58.360 | - Yeah.

01:59:59.200 | - Like what is this feeling of what I call anxiety?

02:00:01.800 | Is it excitement and anxiety?

02:00:04.180 | Like being able to better pinpoint what one is coping with,

02:00:08.480 | but also the positive aspects of emotion.

02:00:11.240 | - Yes.

02:00:12.080 | I mean, it's funny, I am the clinical psychologist.

02:00:15.120 | The question, how do you feel?

02:00:16.700 | I always find like very, like a lot of pressure.

02:00:19.660 | I don't know.

02:00:20.500 | Like, I think that's, I tend not to ask my kid that,

02:00:22.960 | but I tend also never to have asked like patients that.

02:00:25.100 | Like, so, you know, I think what we're getting at is we want,

02:00:28.860 | and I think this relates to resilience,

02:00:30.200 | like resilience is our ability in my mind

02:00:32.080 | to tolerate the widest range of emotions as possible.

02:00:35.400 | 'Cause like as humans, we're gonna feel that whole range.

02:00:37.760 | So the more of them you've learned to tolerate,

02:00:40.400 | like the better off you'll be.

02:00:42.560 | And so that's what I want for my kids.

02:00:44.520 | I don't know if that has to explicitly come from naming,

02:00:47.180 | although I think that point is definitely true.

02:00:49.240 | The more things we can name,

02:00:50.680 | the more things we can understand,

02:00:52.640 | to me, just showing up for your kid in a way

02:00:55.280 | that's like with believing, maybe with boundaries,

02:00:58.040 | is probably the best way to help your kid

02:01:02.080 | tolerate the widest range of emotions.

02:01:03.780 | 'Cause they learn that every emotion

02:01:06.300 | like can be held in connection with someone else, right?

02:01:09.580 | Versus held in aloneness and is bad.

02:01:11.800 | So I guess that's the way I think through it.

02:01:15.440 | - Maybe we could talk about adolescents

02:01:17.600 | and teenagers specifically.

02:01:21.460 | Teenage years are wild.

02:01:23.420 | I always say that the single most traumatic aging event

02:01:28.420 | and the most rapid rate of aging

02:01:30.360 | that we ever experience is puberty.

02:01:33.460 | I mean, just fundamentally brain circuits

02:01:35.480 | that were for one thing or that were dormant

02:01:37.720 | change and come alive in ways that the world forever

02:01:43.700 | will look different to us, feel different to us,

02:01:45.720 | and our self-perception changes, period.

02:01:48.660 | It's something that biologists still understand

02:01:51.220 | at the level of hormones and hypothalamic circuitry,

02:01:53.740 | but that has really not been matched

02:01:56.760 | to a psychological understanding and vice versa.

02:01:59.060 | So like nothing is quite like the music you listen to

02:02:03.460 | when you're a teenager.

02:02:04.300 | It like brings you back, the memories you form,

02:02:06.560 | positive and negative, stamp down, boom, now and forever.

02:02:09.420 | The emotional salience can change,

02:02:10.900 | but those are wild years.

02:02:14.040 | What are some of the more critical needs

02:02:17.220 | of late adolescents and teens that are actionable?

02:02:22.220 | - Yeah.

02:02:25.780 | - And yeah, I mean, my teen years were crazy,

02:02:30.780 | but even if they're less crazy, they're always crazy.

02:02:36.660 | - Yes, yes.

02:02:39.700 | So, and one of the reasons I think, at least in America,

02:02:43.260 | that adolescents is seen as such a huge shift,

02:02:46.700 | like my kid is out of control, they're always out,

02:02:49.100 | they're like always rejecting me,

02:02:50.740 | I actually don't think is unrelated

02:02:53.100 | to the behavioral control approaches

02:02:55.280 | that are inherent in American parenting,

02:02:57.340 | 'cause like you referred to, your kid becomes 14,

02:03:01.620 | and they kind of realize like, wait,

02:03:03.820 | I'm bigger than one of my parents.

02:03:06.100 | Like, I literally don't care

02:03:08.500 | about their sticker charts anymore.

02:03:11.340 | And we might've missed 14 years of building a relationship.

02:03:16.540 | And so what that kid's adolescence is going to look like

02:03:20.540 | is markedly different than if for those past 14 years,

02:03:24.820 | you weren't giving in to everything.

02:03:25.900 | No, but you were leading in a sturdier, more connected way.

02:03:29.220 | So I really think this whole idea

02:03:30.500 | that American adolescents like reject everything,

02:03:33.220 | I actually think not all of it,

02:03:34.840 | a part of it is completely developmentally normal,

02:03:36.700 | but a big part of it relates to this tradition

02:03:39.540 | of behavioral control that kids cannot reject

02:03:43.020 | until they're at the age

02:03:43.940 | that they kind of could survive on their own,

02:03:46.260 | which is adolescence.

02:03:47.340 | So I think that's really important.

02:03:49.460 | The things I would tell parents

02:03:50.860 | to really keep in mind that are critical,

02:03:52.340 | number one is related to that,

02:03:54.060 | like a teen's job is to separate

02:03:55.960 | and to start to form their own identity.

02:03:58.320 | And I think there's a couple of things about that

02:03:59.660 | parents need to know.

02:04:00.680 | Number one, like I don't think we prepare parents enough

02:04:04.860 | for the true sense of loss they feel

02:04:08.400 | when their kids are adolescents, because that's very real.

02:04:11.580 | Like you've just spent all these years

02:04:13.100 | and like you've driven them to every soccer

02:04:15.160 | and they kind of talk to you in the back seat

02:04:16.800 | and maybe you have family movie nights

02:04:18.440 | and then all of a sudden they don't want any of that.

02:04:22.220 | And it's just so important for parents to know like,

02:04:24.500 | I'm gonna feel sad, I'm going to feel lost

02:04:26.820 | and if we don't know to expect it.

02:04:29.880 | We often kind of infuse that

02:04:31.700 | into a lot of anger toward our kid.

02:04:33.820 | And so I just think that's normal

02:04:36.940 | and we should talk about that more

02:04:37.980 | and parents of adolescents need to be talking about that

02:04:39.820 | with each other, of course you miss that,

02:04:41.100 | that's totally normal.

02:04:43.600 | Number two, related to that separation.

02:04:46.140 | If you think about identity formation,

02:04:48.180 | like here's a kid and us and we're kind of close

02:04:50.180 | and now we're at the stage where developmentally

02:04:52.120 | their job at that stage is to figure out who they are.

02:04:54.300 | They have to overcorrect.

02:04:55.900 | Like you have to kind of overcorrect

02:04:57.400 | in the amount of space you take

02:04:59.200 | because it's really the only way you can figure out

02:05:01.500 | like wait, maybe I do wanna take parts of that,

02:05:03.280 | that part's okay.

02:05:04.300 | And so I think that's like a powerful image to think about.

02:05:07.040 | Like they are moving far away,

02:05:09.240 | that distance they take from you is not their final point.

02:05:12.940 | They will move closer.

02:05:16.060 | Now going back to loss, not as close as they used to be.

02:05:19.000 | And that is different but that's not,

02:05:21.380 | this is their way of trying to figure out who they are.

02:05:24.820 | Then the last thing I'd say that kind of relates

02:05:26.380 | to that image is like even as they move away,

02:05:28.500 | I think parents massively underestimate

02:05:31.880 | how much they still need us there

02:05:34.340 | making efforts to connect.

02:05:35.880 | And I always think like the difference

02:05:37.220 | in like an explorer and a nomad

02:05:40.300 | is whether or not you have a home base.

02:05:43.300 | And like if our teens feel like nomads,

02:05:45.700 | it's not a good situation.

02:05:48.420 | They're explorers, they try a million different things

02:05:50.620 | but like they really do need us,

02:05:53.140 | they need to know that they have a home.

02:05:55.420 | And I'll never forget my private practice.

02:05:57.940 | I used to work with teens not too long ago,

02:05:59.660 | just the teens, sometimes the parents too.

02:06:01.300 | And this teen came to me and this was extreme.

02:06:03.660 | She'd been really in a bad place with her parents,

02:06:07.860 | like intense, intense conflict.

02:06:10.240 | And they got in this huge fight

02:06:13.480 | and she was really, really upset.

02:06:15.640 | And she was describing this to me, she's like,

02:06:16.800 | "And then," I was like, "Get out of my room.

02:06:19.060 | "Get out, I hate you, get out."

02:06:20.920 | You know, and I was just like sitting there listening

02:06:23.120 | and then she like kinda pushed me out and I slammed the door

02:06:26.160 | and then just a couple minutes later, opened the door.

02:06:31.880 | My heart's racing, "Can you believe they weren't there?

02:06:35.180 | "Can you believe they weren't there?"

02:06:39.780 | And to me, it was just this like,

02:06:42.120 | and again, it's not about being a punchy bag,

02:06:45.120 | but I like under, like her seeming anger

02:06:50.120 | and her like intense pain were so close together

02:06:55.640 | in her own story that it's just over and over the same thing

02:07:00.220 | like they're gonna reject you,

02:07:01.540 | they're gonna say, "Get out of my room."

02:07:03.620 | And yes, it sucks, but they want you to slip a note

02:07:07.500 | under their door after you've taken a couple minutes

02:07:10.800 | that says, "That was really tough."

02:07:13.440 | Her like, "Wow, that got out of control.

02:07:15.660 | "You're a good kid and I love you."

02:07:17.520 | And I wanna just tell parents of teens,

02:07:18.680 | "You're gonna do that, there's gonna be a pause

02:07:20.960 | "and then you will hear them rip up the note, you will."

02:07:24.440 | And like, I swear to any parent that that still resonated

02:07:29.440 | and your kid is again trying to figure out,

02:07:31.620 | how do I stay close with my parents

02:07:32.880 | and I'm figuring out my own, who I am?

02:07:34.400 | So like, they rip up the note because like,

02:07:36.380 | they almost like have to do it to like take in

02:07:39.200 | how much they're still desperate

02:07:41.080 | for those bids for connection.

02:07:43.480 | - Sounds a lot like the dynamics of adult relationships,

02:07:47.640 | although hopefully with a little bit

02:07:51.000 | less dramatic accentuation.

02:07:56.040 | But you know, even if it does, I mean, it's like

02:07:58.280 | these circuits that are laid down in childhood,

02:08:04.180 | early childhood, they persist, right?

02:08:07.080 | I mean, I think if anything has become clear to me

02:08:10.000 | in understanding brain development and brain function,

02:08:11.980 | it's that, you know, we don't discard circuitry

02:08:14.240 | for attachment and go, "Oh, you know, that was for mom

02:08:16.400 | "and this one was for dad and that was for the dog."

02:08:18.540 | And then the romantic relationship is different.

02:08:21.520 | We repurpose the circuits, hence all the beautiful work

02:08:25.200 | on childhood attachment that's now being translated

02:08:27.440 | to adult attachment.

02:08:28.400 | I mean, I realize there's nuance to it,

02:08:30.000 | but you know, I was reflecting a bit on this, again,

02:08:34.660 | incredibly potent phrase or mention of explorers

02:08:39.660 | versus nomads of having a home base

02:08:42.260 | and thinking about these psychology experiments

02:08:45.780 | where children are observed in the presence

02:08:48.980 | of their caretakers.

02:08:49.820 | Sometimes the strange situation task

02:08:51.660 | where people are separate,

02:08:52.500 | kids are separated from their moms and the mom and child,

02:08:55.420 | typically mom, nowadays it's also been done

02:08:57.540 | with other caretakers and dads reunite,

02:08:59.900 | but one doesn't even have to know about those experiments.

02:09:02.800 | All you have to do is go to a park or be out in public

02:09:06.580 | and see a little toddler venturing away from parent.

02:09:09.760 | And then what do they do every once in a while?

02:09:12.340 | They look back.

02:09:13.340 | They're just trying to check to make sure they're there.

02:09:15.140 | Even the kids that are taking off on the tricycle like crazy

02:09:18.720 | will eventually stop and look back.

02:09:21.540 | It's like this fundamental circuit where looking back,

02:09:24.440 | you know, and how far they feel they can go

02:09:26.880 | is in direct relationship to presumably the number of times

02:09:31.460 | that they recharged and were able to see

02:09:35.480 | that verification that the parent was still there.

02:09:39.300 | I think this notion of explorers versus nomads

02:09:41.560 | and being an explorer, obviously being a good thing,

02:09:45.740 | a healthy thing within reason,

02:09:49.100 | and nomads just feeling adrift, untethered.

02:09:52.260 | - Yes.

02:09:53.100 | - You know, one of the scariest words,

02:09:54.540 | at least to me in the English language.

02:09:57.600 | So the note under the door.

02:10:01.580 | - Yeah.

02:10:02.420 | - It included the words, "I love you."

02:10:06.400 | I don't want to get too detailed here,

02:10:09.160 | but those words sometimes are never spoken in a home, sadly.

02:10:14.160 | Sometimes are spoken so often

02:10:17.640 | and under so many circumstances that one wonders,

02:10:19.940 | like, do they lose their potency?

02:10:22.660 | But I noticed that in that note, it finished, "I love you."

02:10:26.460 | It's sort of like stating at the end of the day,

02:10:28.820 | no matter what you say, probably even what you do.

02:10:32.860 | I mean, I've been in the presence of parents of kids

02:10:36.460 | that were criminals that did horrible things.

02:10:38.880 | They still love their kids.

02:10:40.500 | So reminding kids that under any and all circumstances.

02:10:46.420 | - Yeah, and again, and I think what's so critical

02:10:48.340 | 'cause our brain collapses is that doesn't mean

02:10:51.920 | you think their behavior is okay.

02:10:53.620 | And I get the fear.

02:10:55.360 | I would never want to send my kid the message

02:10:57.980 | that it's okay to quote, do certain things, right?

02:11:01.220 | Like that it's okay to just scream at your parents.

02:11:03.540 | Of course it's not okay.

02:11:04.860 | It's just, I think we miss like that happened.

02:11:08.300 | Like that happened already.

02:11:09.900 | Like if I dropped my phone and it broke

02:11:12.620 | and I was trying to understand why it broke,

02:11:15.900 | trying to understand that doesn't mean it's okay

02:11:18.200 | that I dropped it.

02:11:19.140 | Like it just doesn't, it just dropped.

02:11:20.960 | Like it already happened.

02:11:21.800 | Now what?

02:11:23.220 | And yeah, our kids need to know,

02:11:25.500 | they need to know that they're loved.

02:11:26.900 | Again, there's kind of like in that message, I think,

02:11:29.900 | like I still see you're a good kid under that moment.

02:11:32.460 | And I actually think it's a powerful strategy

02:11:34.240 | for every parent to kind of conjure up a good kid image.

02:11:38.240 | Like what is it?

02:11:39.080 | Was that that last time we were playing this game

02:11:41.300 | and it was just so fun?

02:11:42.180 | Or is it a memory of my kid when they were three?

02:11:44.020 | And like, I don't know, they did this really cute thing.

02:11:46.060 | And it kind of like really crystallizes that.

02:11:48.980 | And like even under this bad behavior,

02:11:52.600 | that kid's still there.

02:11:54.360 | And the kids who behave the worst are in the deepest pain.

02:11:59.120 | I mean, the adults too.

02:12:00.160 | And that's not to say it's okay.

02:12:01.940 | But again, we're talking about relationships

02:12:03.520 | we want to be in.

02:12:04.360 | Like if you're in a relationship with your teen

02:12:05.560 | that's not one and you're like, this is toxic.

02:12:07.120 | Like this is my kid.

02:12:07.960 | I'm gonna be in a relationship with them.

02:12:09.240 | So remembering that they're in pain.

02:12:12.400 | Teens are in a lot of pain.

02:12:13.640 | They're exploring a new world.

02:12:15.400 | Frankly, right now, like teens have worlds.

02:12:17.000 | We don't understand it.

02:12:18.000 | That's so helpful for parents to approach your teen

02:12:20.500 | just as a tangible tool and say, you know what?

02:12:22.460 | There's so many things in your world

02:12:23.700 | that I don't understand.

02:12:25.200 | And frankly, probably I might like criticize or judge.

02:12:28.740 | Like, can you take out your phone?

02:12:31.240 | This, you know, whatever it is, this app you're on,

02:12:33.360 | this video game.

02:12:34.200 | Like, can we just even time box this five minutes?

02:12:36.640 | Like, I just want to end this conversation

02:12:38.580 | saying I understand it better.

02:12:40.340 | Like, I promise you that's probably gonna do more

02:12:43.020 | for your relationship with your kid than anything else.

02:12:45.540 | Because yes, they do.

02:12:46.380 | And they might reject you.

02:12:47.580 | And if you do, again, don't take the bait,

02:12:49.740 | but ask again next week.

02:12:51.300 | Like, again, they do, they need us to return.

02:12:54.860 | - Yeah, one thing's for sure.

02:12:55.740 | None of us, except those that are teens,

02:12:58.060 | know what it's like to be a teenager in 2024.

02:13:01.100 | Just like they didn't know what it was like

02:13:02.660 | to be a teenager for me in the late 80s, early 90s.

02:13:05.940 | How could they, right?

02:13:07.360 | So what are your thoughts on like family meetings?

02:13:12.360 | Like once a week, we sit down, we check in.

02:13:14.800 | You know, I hear that people do this.

02:13:17.180 | Maybe participated in these before.

02:13:18.940 | Do you feel like those can be useful

02:13:21.460 | or is it more window dressing?

02:13:24.520 | - I mean, I guess it depends what's happening in there.

02:13:26.700 | I mean, the idea of like,

02:13:27.960 | hey, there's a lot going on in our life

02:13:29.400 | and we have a ritual of coming together

02:13:31.420 | and talking things through, working through problems.

02:13:33.940 | Like if that's what it is, that's a beautiful thing.

02:13:35.700 | Like I hear that.

02:13:36.540 | My first thought is I should do that, you know?

02:13:38.980 | But you're right.

02:13:39.820 | Like life gets messy.

02:13:40.660 | So, but if it's done in a way where it feels,

02:13:43.020 | we end and everyone feels a little bit more understood

02:13:45.780 | and a little bit more purpose and, you know,

02:13:48.220 | making things move forward in a positive direction,

02:13:50.440 | that's amazing.

02:13:51.340 | I think family meetings,

02:13:52.220 | it's funny the way I think about them often,

02:13:53.940 | which is just different, is it's actually a great strategy,

02:13:57.300 | especially when your kids are older

02:13:59.160 | and there's like somewhat of an ongoing conflict.

02:14:02.300 | So maybe there's like an ongoing conflict

02:14:03.780 | about how much video game time or, you know,

02:14:06.060 | how much, you know, how late they can stay out.

02:14:08.740 | And to say to a kid, and again,

02:14:10.460 | this just comes from, again, so important for teens.

02:14:12.880 | We have to approach our kid like we're on the same team.

02:14:15.540 | I always say, me and my kid against a problem,

02:14:18.260 | not me against my kid where they are the problem.

02:14:21.260 | Like, and so to say, hey, you've been late, you know,

02:14:23.820 | or we have to figure out your curfew and like,

02:14:25.940 | look, you're a smart kid, you're a good kid.

02:14:29.060 | My number one job is to keep you safe, but you're old now.

02:14:32.860 | And if I just tell you a time,

02:14:34.540 | it's the same thing that happened last year,

02:14:36.060 | where you get in fights all year, why don't we sit down?

02:14:38.180 | And we will do what I do in my office.

02:14:39.580 | There's two people that each have ideas.

02:14:41.420 | I'm gonna bring a pad of paper

02:14:42.460 | and that's actually super important.

02:14:44.220 | And I'm gonna write down all of your ideas and my ideas.

02:14:46.820 | And then we're just gonna kind of go through

02:14:47.820 | and cross out the ones that feel completely unreasonable.

02:14:50.180 | And I have a feeling when we do that,

02:14:52.020 | we're gonna come to a good place.

02:14:53.420 | So again, you can see there's that like hope I'm giving,

02:14:55.540 | like I hold the positive outcome, the same team.

02:14:58.260 | I'm giving my kid credit in advance.

02:15:00.740 | This is actually like really,

02:15:01.780 | it's usually the opposite of what teens feel,

02:15:03.460 | which is just my parents don't even listen to me or care

02:15:05.540 | and think they have all the answers.

02:15:07.220 | - I've heard this notion of, you know,

02:15:09.060 | couple parents come first and kids come second.

02:15:13.860 | And some people are probably like, what?

02:15:15.660 | You know, well, clearly never parented.

02:15:17.740 | Oh, well, no, actually it's an interesting idea,

02:15:21.800 | perhaps not correct or incorrect,

02:15:24.100 | but maybe dynamic across time where the real question is

02:15:28.680 | if kids know that they are running the family

02:15:31.580 | in terms of what they do or their inability

02:15:34.460 | to not be attended to, et cetera,

02:15:36.960 | is driving the whole relationship that the parents are in

02:15:42.780 | versus, you know, recognizing,

02:15:45.280 | and here I'm imagining two-parent home,

02:15:46.900 | but we can talk about divorced

02:15:48.860 | or people with significant others or single-parent homes.

02:15:51.700 | In all of those, you kind of wonder like,

02:15:58.380 | are kids really paying attention

02:16:00.300 | to how much they are being prioritized to the point where

02:16:03.640 | if they observe their parents tending to their own needs

02:16:05.860 | that they feel deprivation or is it make them feel safer?

02:16:09.760 | Like, hey, mom and/or dad are taking care of themselves

02:16:14.680 | and can show up better.

02:16:16.240 | - Yes, I think that is critically important.

02:16:19.140 | And it kind of goes again to boundaries like of a parent.

02:16:22.040 | Like my relationship with my kid is so important

02:16:25.120 | and I'm not going to let that take over me.

02:16:28.360 | Like that is not all of me.

02:16:29.760 | I am not only a caregiver to my kid.

02:16:32.840 | Like I would stand by that all day long.

02:16:34.920 | Like, is that an important part of me?

02:16:36.240 | And it's still a part of me.

02:16:37.760 | And I think this is really important to own as a parent.

02:16:40.520 | 'Cause again, we tend to get, like we get apologists for it

02:16:43.880 | or we look for our kids' permission.

02:16:45.280 | We'll say, look, I need to go out with dad without you.

02:16:48.400 | Okay, like we have a relationship too.

02:16:51.000 | Like, and we, again, there's that job confusion

02:16:53.620 | and my kid feels that.

02:16:54.880 | And again, it's that kind of giving them too much power.

02:16:57.360 | I've said this to my kids a lot.

02:16:58.720 | So I'll say, why do you go out with dad without me?

02:17:00.680 | I'll say, it's a great question.

02:17:02.280 | You know, first of all,

02:17:03.180 | dad and I were married before we had kids.

02:17:05.760 | Our relationship is really important to us.

02:17:08.720 | And we love being with you.

02:17:10.160 | And being with you is different

02:17:12.240 | than just being the two of us.

02:17:14.320 | And that really, really matters to us.

02:17:16.640 | And so you don't have to be happy about it.

02:17:18.320 | You can, you, and let's say I have a babysitter

02:17:20.400 | I know they're safe with.

02:17:21.640 | You can cry when I leave and the babysitter will hold you

02:17:24.520 | and we're gonna go out to dinner

02:17:26.040 | and we're gonna come back and, you know,

02:17:28.520 | I'll see you in the morning.

02:17:29.480 | Yeah, I think that is so important.

02:17:31.720 | I actually think this is another topic.

02:17:33.240 | Like this topic of like rage in parenthood

02:17:36.720 | is like a big topic.

02:17:37.700 | Like the way, why do I get to these moments of rage so often

02:17:42.700 | that my screaming is not just screaming at my kids.

02:17:44.760 | It's really rageful.

02:17:45.780 | And I think the parents often

02:17:47.480 | who are the most vulnerable to that

02:17:49.180 | are the ones where they're not meeting

02:17:54.360 | like any of their non-caregiving needs,

02:17:57.680 | which makes sense that a part of them is like screaming out.

02:18:00.320 | Like, what about me?

02:18:01.160 | I used to go to dance class.

02:18:02.140 | I used to see friends.

02:18:03.320 | I used to go out with my partner

02:18:05.000 | and talk about things other than, you know, our kids.

02:18:07.240 | And so, again, I think a kids need a sturdy leader, right?

02:18:12.240 | More than anything else.

02:18:13.160 | And sturdiness is not allowing yourself

02:18:15.740 | to be taken over by any one thing,

02:18:17.520 | including your relationship with your kid.

02:18:19.720 | - Is it truly better for there to be two sturdy leaders

02:18:22.000 | than one sturdy leader?

02:18:23.920 | I realize this is a controversial question.

02:18:25.600 | - Yeah, I mean, I know,

02:18:27.840 | and I know there's research to back this up

02:18:29.640 | that like having one kind of sturdy leader in your life

02:18:32.500 | is massively protective.

02:18:34.640 | I really believe that.

02:18:35.740 | And so when parents will say my partner isn't,

02:18:37.980 | I'm like, we have research, this is true.

02:18:40.820 | Is two better than one?

02:18:42.020 | I don't know the research.

02:18:43.380 | Probably, I don't know, you know?

02:18:45.320 | But what I think is important in there too

02:18:47.820 | is what's not great for kids

02:18:50.420 | is having like all the caregivers

02:18:52.540 | be some like perfectly attuned caregiver, right?

02:18:55.780 | Like that actually does not set up your kid for life

02:18:59.180 | at all, right?

02:19:00.500 | Because I don't know anyone who thinks

02:19:01.880 | the partner I'm gonna be with one day

02:19:03.200 | is gonna be perfectly attuned to all my needs.

02:19:05.660 | Let me go find that person.

02:19:07.220 | So, you know, you have one sturdy leader, you have two,

02:19:10.740 | but like being sturdy, part of that is you're gonna rupture.

02:19:13.700 | You're gonna rupture, you're gonna mess up,

02:19:15.360 | you're gonna hopefully repair, you know, after.

02:19:18.960 | But sturdiness, I just wanna make clear,

02:19:20.080 | is so not the same as like perfection.

02:19:22.120 | Perfection is creepy, it's not a thing.

02:19:24.420 | No one needs that.

02:19:25.260 | (laughing)

02:19:26.380 | - I love that.

02:19:28.140 | So for some, I've laughed out loud on this podcast

02:19:30.780 | about a statement like that.

02:19:32.180 | Yeah, the notion of perfection is kind of creepy.

02:19:36.340 | But sturdiness is anything but creepy.

02:19:39.740 | It's just such a beautiful word for all the right reasons.

02:19:43.140 | What about behavioral examples in parents?

02:19:45.280 | So for instance, if children observe parents

02:19:50.280 | being affectionate to one another in appropriate ways,

02:19:53.980 | right, you know, attending to one another in boundary,

02:19:58.860 | but empathically attuned ways,

02:20:00.600 | do you think that projects forward into their notion

02:20:05.740 | of what adult relationships are like and should be like?

02:20:09.100 | Conversely, if parents are yelling at one another,

02:20:11.960 | do you think that projects forward into,

02:20:14.540 | it's okay to yell in adult relationships?

02:20:17.620 | - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think kids are expert noticers.

02:20:22.100 | They notice everything, right,

02:20:23.140 | is part of how they've learned to survive

02:20:24.580 | as such helpless humans.

02:20:26.500 | So they definitely notice, they definitely act like sponges.

02:20:30.200 | So yes, if you're kind of privileged enough in that way

02:20:35.100 | to grow up in a home or you have parents who, in general,

02:20:37.380 | are fairly affectionate,

02:20:38.700 | they take responsibility for their stuff,

02:20:40.820 | they communicate in a healthy way,

02:20:42.740 | I think that is like a true privilege

02:20:44.720 | you go into adulthood with, yes.

02:20:46.840 | The other extreme, right, you grow up with parents who,

02:20:51.700 | you know, they yell or they can even yell in scary voices.

02:20:55.380 | Again, what I think is really important

02:20:57.000 | is the witnessing of that

02:21:00.060 | isn't going to be as impactful to a kid

02:21:03.340 | as the witnessing of it and nobody naming it

02:21:06.820 | and talking to them about it.

02:21:08.740 | So this is why so often kids will be in difficult stages,

02:21:11.540 | intense tantrums, major issues at school,

02:21:13.780 | and someone's like, what do I do?

02:21:15.220 | Like, what do I do with this?

02:21:16.220 | Well, I gave you all the strategies in the world,

02:21:18.940 | but if that is just your kid's way of kind of manifesting

02:21:22.340 | all of their struggles with this like

02:21:24.020 | huge marital conflict that's happening,

02:21:26.620 | it's not gonna work.

02:21:27.880 | So it's all part of the same system.

02:21:29.860 | And so saying to your kid after you fight with your partner,

02:21:32.740 | hey, I think you heard daddy and I screaming,

02:21:34.860 | and I'm sure that felt scary,

02:21:36.460 | 'cause it does feel scary

02:21:37.500 | because they know you're their base.

02:21:39.420 | So if their base is of a house,

02:21:40.820 | it's like, you know, feels like an earthquake,

02:21:42.860 | it feels scary.

02:21:43.920 | And, you know, another line I like is like,

02:21:47.400 | you were right to notice that.

02:21:48.960 | We were using loud voices.

02:21:50.560 | Again, I think that's massively confidence building.

02:21:53.360 | Maybe what was that like for you?

02:21:55.720 | Or if you have a little kid, just that's enough.

02:21:57.200 | You know, and they might look at you and say like,

02:21:58.640 | can I have my snack now?

02:21:59.800 | But it's still really sunk in.

02:22:01.580 | So if there is a lot of conflict, again,

02:22:03.800 | I think it's really important

02:22:04.880 | we talk about that with our kids.

02:22:07.160 | Don't leave them alone.

02:22:08.860 | - What about teens that are really wayward?

02:22:11.400 | And this could be behavioral outbursts.

02:22:14.440 | There's also the whole underside of this thing

02:22:17.060 | where it's also about withdrawal.

02:22:18.940 | Like the kids are withdrawn.

02:22:20.000 | I mean, we were talking about outbursts and yelling.

02:22:21.800 | There's also the example in parents

02:22:23.540 | or the instances in kids that they're just like

02:22:25.960 | really withdrawn.

02:22:26.960 | - Yes.

02:22:27.800 | - They're just like disengaged.

02:22:30.540 | - Depressed.

02:22:31.380 | - Depressed, maybe even dissociative, who knows,

02:22:35.320 | but not good.

02:22:36.600 | And this can show up on one end as violence,

02:22:38.960 | on the other end as isolation.

02:22:40.700 | It can show up as eating disorders.

02:22:42.240 | It can show up as all sorts of things.

02:22:45.740 | You know, intervention before age 18

02:22:49.560 | is "easier" in the sense that one has legal control,

02:22:54.240 | but oftentimes it's hard for parents to know

02:22:56.740 | like how bad is this?

02:22:58.520 | And, you know, I did an entire episode about cannabis

02:23:00.800 | and I spoke to some of the medical benefits of cannabis

02:23:03.360 | for adults who are non addicts,

02:23:04.860 | but I also talked a lot about some of the risks,

02:23:06.680 | but let's take an example that I think is pretty common.

02:23:09.060 | Like kids 15, 16 starts smoking some THC with their friends

02:23:13.600 | and you go, okay, well, everyone does that.

02:23:15.040 | Quote unquote, not as bad as alcohol,

02:23:16.560 | which I think is a lame argument.

02:23:18.400 | This is lame.

02:23:19.520 | It doesn't make any sense.

02:23:20.360 | Again, you're getting hit by a, you know,

02:23:21.900 | cars isn't bad as getting hit by a train, but okay.

02:23:24.520 | But the point is, you know, most all parents are like,

02:23:31.000 | okay, you know, clearly they're self-medicating, you know,

02:23:35.400 | can't, they think they can't stop them,

02:23:37.240 | but you can stop them.

02:23:38.240 | You know, at what point do you then take, you know,

02:23:41.360 | you put them into a residential treatment program

02:23:43.200 | if you could even afford that?

02:23:44.280 | I mean, it's really tough for people to know

02:23:47.100 | how much to intervene in what is clearly not good behavior

02:23:51.120 | and it sometimes can be bad behavior.

02:23:52.740 | And yet the kids are using it to self-medicate

02:23:54.880 | and there's a peer system that sometimes reinforces that.

02:23:58.240 | I mean, this is a huge landscape.

02:24:00.280 | Maybe we have you back to talk just about this,

02:24:02.200 | but maybe we can press it to that discussion,

02:24:05.600 | but by like, what do you tell people in your practice?

02:24:10.840 | Like, get in there now, pull the emergency cord

02:24:15.440 | and get this handled, or do you say, listen,

02:24:17.680 | you just got to work with the, you know,

02:24:19.920 | work with the system and it's a tough problem

02:24:22.000 | I'm throwing at you here, but-

02:24:22.840 | - Yeah, I think the first thing is like,

02:24:24.820 | how do I as a parent, like kind of even assess,

02:24:27.540 | it's like, is this normal?

02:24:28.960 | Is it not normal?

02:24:29.780 | Is it a problem?

02:24:30.620 | Is it not?

02:24:31.460 | So I think there's a couple of like things

02:24:32.280 | we could think about there.

02:24:33.180 | Number one, just seeing like impact on overall functioning

02:24:36.200 | is always like one barometer, right?

02:24:39.100 | So, okay, can my child perform the kind of tasks

02:24:43.620 | of their developmental stage?

02:24:45.280 | Okay, so this is not the only thing,

02:24:46.740 | but like, are they still going to school?

02:24:48.360 | Wow, I noticed since they're smoking a lot of weeds,

02:24:50.720 | their grades went from Bs to Ds.

02:24:52.820 | Like, okay, they don't care about school anymore.

02:24:55.140 | They used to actually go out with friends.

02:24:56.780 | Now, unless they're with this one crew

02:24:58.300 | where they smoke in the park,

02:24:59.820 | like they're not even seeing these kids

02:25:01.560 | they used to be friends with.

02:25:02.720 | They don't want to go to family functions anymore.

02:25:04.740 | They used to play soccer.

02:25:05.780 | Like if I'm answering this, I'd be like, wow,

02:25:07.860 | I'm not really talking just about a marijuana problem.

02:25:11.100 | I'm talking about my kid not engaging

02:25:12.940 | in kind of like the developmental tasks.

02:25:14.980 | That I would say is just like,

02:25:17.220 | it's time to seek additional support, right?

02:25:20.560 | Another sign is just kind of how limited their world

02:25:24.860 | has become because of this, right?

02:25:27.160 | So again, is this kind of taken over everything they do?

02:25:31.040 | My kid is depressed, let's say, or, you know,

02:25:34.060 | and all of a sudden their world has gotten

02:25:36.340 | really, really small and it's not just that,

02:25:38.820 | that's the way they've always lived.

02:25:40.100 | Like there's a big change.

02:25:42.120 | The amount of conflict in the home.

02:25:43.600 | Again, like is there conflict when you have teens?

02:25:45.700 | Of course there is, but like, wow,

02:25:47.720 | like is it really hard to talk to my teen

02:25:49.180 | for more than four minutes?

02:25:50.580 | Walking on eggshells to me is also a sign

02:25:53.600 | that we need additional help.

02:25:54.660 | Am I scared to intervene in a way

02:25:56.540 | that would actually be in line with my values?

02:25:59.220 | That's not a good sign, right?

02:26:01.300 | Then the other thing I just want to make sure everyone knows

02:26:03.540 | is I mean, like seeking additional help

02:26:05.820 | is a sign of every single thing that's right with the family

02:26:08.380 | and I think we think it's a sign of something that's wrong

02:26:10.580 | and it's like also a sign of what's right to your,

02:26:12.780 | in terms of messaging that to your kid.

02:26:14.880 | Again, I think about a kid who I used to see in my practice.

02:26:18.220 | She was probably 16 when she came to me.

02:26:19.540 | She was cutting, serious, right?

02:26:22.460 | And I remember saying just intake,

02:26:23.700 | hey, how long have you been doing this?

02:26:25.140 | She was two years.

02:26:26.500 | Oh, like did you see another therapist before you saw me?

02:26:29.380 | She was like, no.

02:26:30.220 | She was like very like kind of, you know,

02:26:32.020 | kind of quippy and quick and I was just like,

02:26:35.480 | why?

02:26:36.320 | And she's like, well, I told my parents

02:26:38.720 | that if they took me to a therapist,

02:26:40.260 | I would go and I would just waste all their money.

02:26:42.300 | I'd be quiet and then when they left me there,

02:26:44.140 | I would just leave and who's gonna stop a 14 year old

02:26:46.520 | from walking away and they might as well save their money

02:26:48.860 | because they can't meet me, okay?

02:26:50.940 | And again, I just kind of sensed to stay quiet

02:26:54.260 | and she's seriously, one of the next things she said is,

02:26:56.740 | can you believe they let me make that decision?

02:26:59.540 | Literally said that.

02:27:01.020 | - Wow, validates everything you've said up until now.

02:27:03.180 | - And it is, this is why, this is where like,

02:27:04.600 | I feel like I get my best ideas.

02:27:06.040 | Like that's right, like a 14 year old can convince

02:27:09.140 | her parent that she won't go to therapy when she's cutting.

02:27:14.140 | Like that is not okay and again, then we go to,

02:27:17.020 | okay, so I'm gonna say to my kid, you are going.

02:27:19.400 | I'm like, no, there's so much between that.

02:27:20.980 | We're in these binary states.

02:27:22.720 | Your kid's feelings about therapy

02:27:24.660 | cannot dictate your boundary, right?

02:27:27.440 | But we can't just then come down harshly

02:27:29.900 | and so I coach parents in this all the time.

02:27:31.620 | What do you say to a kid?

02:27:32.860 | I love you.

02:27:34.100 | Hear me, I love you.

02:27:37.320 | We're in a tough stage.

02:27:39.100 | I see this problem and I do think even when our kids

02:27:41.980 | get older, we can say this.

02:27:43.380 | My number one job is to keep you safe.

02:27:47.380 | It is not to keep you happy with me

02:27:49.500 | and I actually love you so much that I'm willing

02:27:51.780 | to do things that make you unhappy with me.

02:27:55.280 | That is actually how much I care about you

02:27:58.600 | and so I am gonna be driving you

02:28:00.880 | and if you wanna like curse at me the whole time,

02:28:04.380 | I will sit in that waiting room

02:28:06.480 | and you know what I'm gonna do the next week?

02:28:07.840 | I'm gonna tell you I love you.

02:28:09.200 | I'm gonna do the same thing

02:28:10.600 | and I think adults hearing that on some level,

02:28:13.960 | there's some internal truth.

02:28:15.240 | I'm like, I probably needed that.

02:28:17.120 | Like that feels oddly good

02:28:19.760 | because there's like, you know I'm not messing around

02:28:22.680 | but there's this way where as parents,

02:28:24.560 | we've said like the way to show my kid

02:28:25.700 | I'm not messing around is to be mean to them.

02:28:27.880 | Like there was nothing mean about what I said.

02:28:29.820 | I think it was more loving than saying to a kid,

02:28:32.600 | okay, let me know when you wanna go.

02:28:34.640 | That is not loving.

02:28:36.320 | And so I think like our teens sometimes in those moments,

02:28:39.480 | they need us to do our job and like be the pilot.

02:28:42.240 | Like it is the small amount of time

02:28:43.980 | where they're still a passenger.

02:28:45.140 | When they're 18, they are the pilot

02:28:47.940 | and so we have this window.

02:28:50.160 | - There's nothing I wanna probe more into that.

02:28:52.400 | I think you captured it beautifully

02:28:54.800 | and it gets back to this issue of safety.

02:28:57.120 | Like in letting them make their own decision

02:28:58.960 | when they're clearly in trouble,

02:29:00.080 | like if anything could make a kid feel unsafe,

02:29:03.800 | a teen or younger or adult, it's that.

02:29:06.860 | - Yes, yes.

02:29:08.620 | - It's like laying the passenger on the plane.

02:29:10.440 | Be like, hey, instead of rerouting,

02:29:12.280 | how about you just come up here and fly?

02:29:14.240 | - That's exactly, that's literally what it is.

02:29:16.320 | And they're like, I can't believe you believed

02:29:18.260 | my little protest now I'm in the cockpit.

02:29:20.360 | Like they don't want that.

02:29:22.680 | That's why their words, teens' words,

02:29:25.000 | it's not that we don't believe them.

02:29:26.680 | Like as you see, I'm big on believing.

02:29:28.380 | Their words often are a representation of their fears,

02:29:33.040 | all of us in our worst moments.

02:29:34.760 | Get out.

02:29:35.680 | Like I feel like sometimes like that's their fear

02:29:38.260 | or like they're kind of talking to their emotion.

02:29:40.560 | They're so like, they're not really talking to you

02:29:42.080 | in that moment, they're so dysregulated

02:29:43.640 | and like just learning to like not take it so literally

02:29:46.700 | and be like, what am I really believing?

02:29:48.260 | My kid is in pain, they're cutting.

02:29:49.600 | My kid is in pain, they're smoking weed 30 times a day

02:29:52.580 | and don't go to class.

02:29:53.400 | Like I know that they need help.

02:29:57.400 | And again, any parent who can say that,

02:29:58.940 | like to me is like the strongest parent

02:30:01.620 | and that is such a sign of health.

02:30:03.920 | - I don't think I'd still be alive today

02:30:06.520 | if it wasn't for non-parent mentors

02:30:09.520 | and it just examples in the world.

02:30:11.400 | These aren't always people that were like,

02:30:12.960 | hey, I'm going to take you under my wing

02:30:14.220 | and be your mentor.

02:30:15.060 | Actually, that was rarely the case.

02:30:16.440 | But people in my real life or in my, you know, reading

02:30:21.440 | or, you know, there wasn't YouTube back then.

02:30:24.280 | But sometimes now, you know, people have, I'm a huge fan,

02:30:27.840 | for instance, of these Jungian psychologist, James Hollis,

02:30:30.860 | who has these beautiful lectures on making a life.

02:30:33.640 | And I'm learning so much, like I consider him a mentor.

02:30:37.600 | Sorry, James, you didn't have a choice.

02:30:39.520 | You're a mentor.

02:30:40.360 | But these people that we can internalize

02:30:41.960 | certain healthy aspects that our parents just apparently

02:30:46.640 | can't seem to arrange for themselves

02:30:49.560 | and that we wish they had.

02:30:51.040 | But I think that we, as children of all ages,

02:30:54.760 | like we want perfect parents.

02:30:58.040 | We don't get them.

02:30:59.040 | But it seems appropriate to me.

02:31:02.800 | I'd love your thoughts.

02:31:03.640 | It seems appropriate to me to have, you know,

02:31:05.880 | kind of a foraging for examples of where

02:31:08.720 | we can get certain things that we can internalize

02:31:11.100 | for ourselves so that we can benefit

02:31:13.240 | that maybe our parents just aren't interested in,

02:31:16.000 | capable of, or even alive to provide us anymore.

02:31:18.520 | - Yeah.

02:31:19.440 | Yeah, I mean that like being everything to someone,

02:31:21.920 | like, I don't want my kids to ever say that about me.

02:31:26.440 | My mom was everything.

02:31:27.760 | She fulfilled my every need again.

02:31:29.640 | I do find that creepy whenever, I don't know.

02:31:32.000 | And like, and just setting them up

02:31:35.000 | for so much relationship disappointment.

02:31:38.320 | My mom gave some things and, you know,

02:31:43.140 | now that I also work a lot of funny with my kids,

02:31:44.860 | like, there is this mom,

02:31:46.800 | like when kids have a sleepover at her house,

02:31:48.880 | I mean, it is the best sleepover experience.

02:31:51.680 | Like I see pictures and I'm like,

02:31:53.040 | wow, that was so thoughtful.

02:31:54.080 | That was amazing.

02:31:54.920 | She's like, she puts it, she's creative.

02:31:57.120 | Like, and me and my kids joke.

02:31:58.880 | Like, they're like, yeah, mom,

02:32:00.400 | you're like bottom of the list and that stuff.

02:32:02.180 | And I am, I am.

02:32:04.760 | And like, I know I'm toward the top of the list

02:32:07.120 | and other things.

02:32:07.960 | I don't want to be toward them.

02:32:09.100 | First of all, I don't want to hold myself to that standard.

02:32:10.740 | That's like a great way to implode.

02:32:12.420 | So yeah, being able to say to my kid,

02:32:14.460 | oh, you guys want to have a sleepover?

02:32:15.460 | You'd rather go to her house?

02:32:16.680 | 'Cause that's okay, like that's not an indictment of me.

02:32:20.200 | And so maybe this is some quote mentor-like figure

02:32:22.640 | for someone who can like put these details

02:32:24.540 | and make people feel really taken care of in that way.

02:32:26.880 | That's great.

02:32:27.920 | And I think, yes, giving your kid permission

02:32:30.720 | and encouragement, again,

02:32:32.160 | I think is such a gift to them later on.

02:32:33.740 | Like, yeah, our relationship with our kids

02:32:36.640 | becomes not only the foundation,

02:32:38.600 | their expectations for their relationship

02:32:41.040 | with other adults.

02:32:41.860 | I also think it's literally what they're attracted to.

02:32:45.040 | I think when they're attracted to someone later on,

02:32:46.660 | it's just the activation of that like earliest attachment.

02:32:50.300 | And so if they can get activated around someone

02:32:53.160 | who seems to be pretty attuned and respectful

02:32:55.680 | and validating and boundary,

02:32:58.160 | because they also have other things in their life

02:33:00.120 | and not everything, like that's a privilege to say,

02:33:02.500 | that's what I'm expecting.

02:33:03.960 | So I think those other relationships,

02:33:05.640 | and as a parent to hear your kids say,

02:33:07.340 | my coach taught me this thing.

02:33:08.780 | And sometimes they say it in a catty way,

02:33:11.340 | so much better than what you said to do at lacrosse.

02:33:15.060 | Just to like take a deep breath.

02:33:16.280 | And again, this is where you can say like,

02:33:18.960 | I'm still a good parent, even outside this moment.

02:33:21.520 | I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

02:33:25.360 | I believe you, tell me more about this.

02:33:27.000 | Like such a beautiful example for your kid.

02:33:30.080 | - So being able to validate and embrace the fact

02:33:33.080 | that there are other sources of healthy upbringing

02:33:36.120 | is not just perhaps is clearly a good thing.

02:33:40.860 | Do I have that right?

02:33:41.700 | - I think that's right.

02:33:42.520 | And I think if that's hard for a parent,

02:33:43.820 | what I'd say is like, it's a question without an exact

02:33:46.340 | answer, but like, where did I learn that I'm supposed

02:33:48.700 | to be everything to someone?

02:33:51.580 | Like, and is that, and I think a lot of women,

02:33:55.260 | we learn that in our families of origin to be good girls,

02:33:59.860 | which really just means I have no wants and needs my own.

02:34:03.460 | And I just kind of gaze out and see how I can do things

02:34:06.260 | for you and I can be everything for you.

02:34:08.780 | And then we have kids, we don't realize we put that

02:34:10.420 | onto them, but like you said, those patterns travel with us.

02:34:14.260 | And I find it like very relieving to be like,

02:34:16.900 | maybe if I don't, wow, it just gave me like a good percentage

02:34:19.940 | of energy back.

02:34:20.780 | Like I can do like so many other things now, you know?

02:34:23.660 | It's very, it's like empowering.

02:34:25.980 | - I love it.

02:34:26.800 | Something that it's an unpleasant topic just by,

02:34:32.260 | as soon as people hear the word,

02:34:33.420 | but it's something that I think it comes up on the child

02:34:37.540 | side, the teen side and the parenting side.

02:34:39.900 | And in adult relationships of all kind,

02:34:41.840 | which is the dreaded entitlement.

02:34:45.460 | - Dirty word of parenting.

02:34:46.620 | - Entitlement.

02:34:47.800 | Maybe we could put some definition on entitlement

02:34:51.140 | and talk about when it's bad, is it always bad?

02:34:55.020 | When it's neutral and when it's, I don't know,

02:34:57.700 | is it ever good?

02:34:58.540 | I don't know, entitlement doesn't sound like it's ever good.

02:35:01.260 | - Yeah, there is a healthy entitlement, right?

02:35:05.620 | And I think that is kind of the entitlement to like,

02:35:07.900 | I'm allowed to want things and I'm only allowed to,

02:35:10.260 | at moments in my life, even act on that,

02:35:12.340 | to turn that want into a fulfillment of my want.

02:35:14.580 | I think that actually goes back to what we were just saying,

02:35:16.200 | like versus how can I please you?

02:35:18.420 | Like maybe I want to do something.

02:35:19.840 | So I think that healthy entitlement, that's a good thing.

02:35:22.740 | But when I think, when I hear parents say like,

02:35:24.700 | please, I just don't want an entitled kid.

02:35:27.480 | They're not talking about that, right?

02:35:29.040 | And they're talking about, and to me,

02:35:31.080 | the story from my practice is just the key thing

02:35:33.940 | that makes us parents cringe was this family

02:35:35.780 | I was seeing in New York City and they were,

02:35:38.060 | they were very wealthy and they had the 16-year-old son

02:35:41.780 | and they were flying back from Hawaii or to Hawaii

02:35:44.700 | and they were just getting ready to board

02:35:45.960 | and first class was boarding and the sun goes up

02:35:48.540 | and they're like, oh, so we were not,

02:35:50.380 | like in first class, we have to wait.

02:35:52.900 | He had basically a full tantrum in the airport,

02:35:56.940 | like every parent's first nightmare, literally.

02:36:00.220 | And they came to me afterwards being like,

02:36:01.640 | how did we, like, how did we get here, right?

02:36:04.480 | Now, this is a family, in general, too.

02:36:06.260 | They flew first class, they had private planes,

02:36:08.100 | had a lot of money, but entitlement to me

02:36:10.160 | doesn't always have to be about money.

02:36:12.820 | I'm gonna give you my definition of entitlement.

02:36:14.400 | I think it's very different.

02:36:15.520 | But to me, the definition like boundaries is useful

02:36:18.020 | because it gives you a pathway of what to do.

02:36:20.880 | I think entitlement is the fear of frustration.

02:36:25.360 | - Beautiful.

02:36:27.340 | - Because if we go back, okay,

02:36:31.600 | that thing didn't start at 16.

02:36:33.560 | And if we started, you know,

02:36:34.860 | I started kind of collecting stories and right,

02:36:37.660 | this is a kid who they had, and again,

02:36:40.340 | like they had a driver.

02:36:41.180 | There's nothing wrong with having a driver.

02:36:42.740 | But I'm just thinking about like waiting for a subway.

02:36:45.340 | It's frustrating, you just missed the subway.

02:36:47.780 | We're gonna be late.

02:36:49.100 | Like, no, right?

02:36:50.940 | This was a kid who didn't make,

02:36:53.700 | instead of seeing it older, remember,

02:36:54.660 | like didn't make the soccer team.

02:36:56.100 | Don't worry, we have someone who's gonna take you

02:36:58.300 | to the nearby town in New Jersey

02:36:59.820 | and get on that soccer team, right?

02:37:02.820 | And I think about what this kid started to learn

02:37:05.520 | about being frustrated.

02:37:07.840 | And it was kind of like, frustration comes up.

02:37:11.920 | And what gets layered next to it

02:37:14.880 | is someone else bringing you an exit.

02:37:19.680 | Frustration, exit from frustration.

02:37:21.800 | Maybe even exit to success, right?

02:37:25.860 | And then I started to think like,

02:37:26.820 | well, what would it be like

02:37:28.740 | if there was 16 years of kind of,

02:37:30.960 | of that pattern and that circuit reinforcing?

02:37:34.240 | 'Cause what you're really learning as a kid,

02:37:37.080 | I'm frustrated, and that's very overwhelming for me,

02:37:40.520 | but like the adults around me must be scared

02:37:44.520 | of my frustration because they won't let me sit in it.

02:37:46.700 | They won't let me feel it.

02:37:47.600 | They will actually kind of run in circles

02:37:49.940 | to not have me feel.

02:37:51.760 | So I actually encode my frustration next to fear.

02:37:55.840 | Now I'm 16 and I'm expecting first class

02:37:58.640 | and I get lowly coach, you know?

02:38:01.840 | It's not, people are like, oh, what a spoiled kid.

02:38:05.160 | Like, I actually, I feel like this kid

02:38:07.640 | was like insanely vulnerable in that moment.

02:38:09.600 | This kid was like, I'm frustrated.

02:38:12.300 | And what I expect to happen

02:38:14.200 | and what I know to happen isn't here.

02:38:16.120 | And so it is explosive.

02:38:18.240 | It appears as entitlement on the surface,

02:38:20.800 | but it is a deep intolerance

02:38:23.440 | and almost fear of frustration, which is in your body.

02:38:26.720 | So you're terrified of a feeling

02:38:29.000 | that is living in your body.

02:38:31.440 | And it looks demanding because it kind of is desperate.

02:38:36.080 | Like you can't let this happen.

02:38:39.080 | - Wow.

02:38:41.120 | Fear of frustration as the definition of entitlement

02:38:46.760 | lands like square in the bull's eye for me.

02:38:49.460 | And yes, I think we all default

02:38:52.640 | to the kind of stereotypical example

02:38:55.080 | of the ultra wealthy family kid.

02:38:58.400 | There was that movie, "The Toy" in the '80s.

02:39:00.640 | It was really dreadful concept, actually.

02:39:02.680 | You know, a kid that was just given everything

02:39:05.520 | and then wanted a person.

02:39:06.680 | It was really like, talk about foul.

02:39:08.840 | I mean, it's just bad at every level.

02:39:11.460 | And then they tried to create this narrative

02:39:14.380 | where then, you know, there's a deeper understanding

02:39:16.440 | about humans and stuff that evolves from it.

02:39:18.600 | But the starting point was, you know,

02:39:21.160 | and I've observed this in certainly not my family,

02:39:24.400 | but other families where kids

02:39:27.200 | are given everything they want.

02:39:29.840 | It never feels like enough.

02:39:32.080 | Big surprise, dopamine is a real thing.

02:39:35.560 | The circuits recalibrate to a higher threshold.

02:39:37.560 | They want more and more and more.

02:39:39.240 | It's like that movie, "Wall Street," what's your number?

02:39:41.040 | More, okay, all right.

02:39:43.520 | Nothing wrong with wanting things,

02:39:45.920 | but without a ceiling on any of that

02:39:49.980 | and without a ceiling on pleasure or bounds on experience,

02:39:54.860 | it crushes everybody.

02:39:56.260 | That's also what that movie was about.

02:39:57.800 | It just crushes people.

02:39:59.580 | So to build that into a child's neurology

02:40:02.880 | just seems like the worst possible thing.

02:40:05.740 | Because it's not about the world

02:40:07.460 | being a place of immense possibility.

02:40:09.620 | It's about the world being a place

02:40:11.540 | of like snakes in broken glass everywhere

02:40:13.860 | except this narrow knife edge path that you follow

02:40:18.020 | that is all about infinite resources.

02:40:20.300 | - And ease, that's right.

02:40:21.740 | And what I think is fear is 'cause if you're in fear,

02:40:24.620 | you're in like a threat state,

02:40:25.840 | which is why when kids are in that state or adults,

02:40:28.280 | it seems like nasty and it's mean.

02:40:30.260 | When there's this like narrowing of your eyes, right?

02:40:34.100 | So I think that's really what's happening.

02:40:36.720 | And it's not always tied to money, but the truth is,

02:40:41.180 | and money can easily buy a kid's way out of frustration.

02:40:47.460 | And by the way, it buys the parent

02:40:49.340 | out of having to tolerate their frustration

02:40:51.300 | while the kid is frustrated.

02:40:53.020 | And so it's tricky.

02:40:54.440 | I think I've now like talked to a bunch of parents

02:40:56.700 | who grew up in a very different way, were very successful.

02:41:01.240 | And I get it.

02:41:02.080 | They're like, I feel like I've earned,

02:41:03.420 | I've literally have earned the right

02:41:04.860 | to have certain parts of my life be a lot easier, right?

02:41:09.060 | And like, how do I raise a kid who isn't entitled, right?

02:41:13.600 | And it is a conundrum, right?

02:41:15.540 | Like I don't think like, you know,

02:41:18.700 | we raise our kids in a candy store,

02:41:21.120 | it's hard to expect them to appreciate candy, right?

02:41:23.660 | And so like, how do we balance that gratitude,

02:41:26.160 | the entitlement?

02:41:27.420 | And I do think though, that idea is like,

02:41:30.120 | we just have to, and sometimes like other people hearing

02:41:33.020 | this would be like, yeah, like my life is frustrating

02:41:34.860 | all the time.

02:41:35.700 | And some peoples are, right?

02:41:37.300 | They won't end up with entitlement.

02:41:39.460 | But for other families, they always have to be like,

02:41:41.500 | I have to like dose it.

02:41:43.340 | I have to make sure my kids literally have experiences

02:41:46.540 | and I probably have to go through it too.

02:41:48.280 | Where we are almost like purposefully making sure

02:41:51.700 | they get enough of that, you know,

02:41:54.660 | so they can build different circuits.

02:41:56.560 | - Yeah, so much done back there.

02:42:00.080 | I think it's clear that some of this is tied

02:42:05.080 | to financial means.

02:42:07.560 | I think it's a pretty scary thing

02:42:11.780 | when someone looks out on the landscape of the world

02:42:13.820 | as infinite possibility without any frustration.

02:42:17.580 | As we talked about earlier, the ability to lean

02:42:21.340 | into hard things as a skill that can extend

02:42:24.780 | to other things is so valuable.

02:42:27.680 | Do you think that some of the smaller practices

02:42:29.620 | that any kid, any parent, any family, regardless of means

02:42:33.840 | can lean into can really help there?

02:42:35.260 | Like, you know, some people say grace or a prayer

02:42:39.020 | before a meal, others simply express gratitude,

02:42:41.340 | but, you know, stopping and thinking about, you know,

02:42:43.460 | I mean, being breathing, being ambulatory,

02:42:45.820 | being any number of good things that allow us agency in life,

02:42:50.660 | about to eat food.

02:42:52.260 | I mean, those moments I think are,

02:42:56.140 | I know that our nervous system reflects on those.

02:42:59.980 | How could they not?

02:43:01.300 | And just recognizing that at least something went

02:43:03.120 | into the creation of the meal.

02:43:05.540 | - I think for like the entitlement stuff

02:43:07.060 | and the frustration, like there's all these small moments

02:43:09.620 | that we can start to make a difference.

02:43:10.940 | And I think it's saying to yourself,

02:43:12.220 | just 'cause I can doesn't mean I will.

02:43:14.920 | So like my kid's young and I pick them up from a play date.

02:43:19.160 | And let's say I have a babysitter at home

02:43:21.420 | or my husband at home.

02:43:22.540 | And I'm like, I have to go to a store on some errands.

02:43:24.980 | My kid's like, can you drop me off first?

02:43:27.220 | Maybe I'm like, you know what?

02:43:28.240 | Like, no, like you're gonna come with me.

02:43:31.380 | I'm not gonna say this, I'm boring errands

02:43:33.200 | because you just have to tolerate that.

02:43:35.460 | Like sometimes you have to do things you don't wanna do.

02:43:38.660 | And like, you are not gonna learn that by me telling you that

02:43:41.940 | you're gonna learn that by experiencing that.

02:43:45.500 | You know, something with my kids, you know, the other day

02:43:48.500 | we were at an airport and like there were, you know

02:43:50.900 | in the airport, like it kind of winds around like to get

02:43:53.200 | and there was like no one there.

02:43:54.040 | So they started to like duck under all the like things.

02:43:58.060 | And it just made me think like as a small moment

02:44:00.020 | like entitlement also was like the rules don't apply

02:44:02.620 | to me in some way.

02:44:03.460 | It sounds like, and I just remember you guys

02:44:04.920 | when we're in airports.

02:44:05.760 | - I know that the lines leading up to security.

02:44:08.480 | - Yeah, and you can duck and sometimes you like mess them up

02:44:10.760 | and it wasn't like forever.

02:44:11.760 | But I was like, you guys like these things,

02:44:13.320 | someone put these here for a reason and we're just gonna,

02:44:16.800 | it's like, these things have to be such,

02:44:19.160 | it's a small amount of frustration.

02:44:20.800 | But it's just like, I don't always get to duck the line.

02:44:22.880 | Sometimes I have to like walk a little longer.

02:44:25.040 | I remember my kids saying, and I'm not immune to this.

02:44:27.520 | Like I am in a financial position where I have someone come,

02:44:31.160 | sometimes help me be my housekeeper, right?

02:44:32.960 | And she'll fold the laundry.

02:44:34.280 | I remember on a Sunday, my son said to me when he was

02:44:37.240 | younger, like, why do we have to fold the laundry?

02:44:39.320 | Kind of like, I don't think he said it,

02:44:40.420 | but he was kind of like, don't we have someone, you know,

02:44:42.960 | who could do that?

02:44:44.000 | And I remember being like, this is a moment where I could,

02:44:46.640 | we're gonna fold the laundry on Sundays.

02:44:48.640 | You know who loves folding laundry?

02:44:49.920 | Maybe some people like, I don't,

02:44:51.680 | I don't love undoing the dishwasher.

02:44:53.480 | It is inherently not that enjoyable.

02:44:55.880 | But like, and so frustrating, it's just like not great.

02:44:59.320 | And like, I know I need to make my kids do that.

02:45:02.480 | Like they just have to go through that mundane thing.

02:45:06.340 | And so I think there's all of these moments,

02:45:08.560 | taking your kid with you on errands, you know,

02:45:10.460 | doing the laundry, right?

02:45:12.840 | Before you say to your kid,

02:45:14.920 | let's go to try out on another soccer team.

02:45:17.480 | Just like, oh, you didn't make the team.

02:45:19.400 | Maybe, maybe let it go two days.

02:45:21.380 | That's at least two more days of feeling upset

02:45:23.400 | and frustrated, right?

02:45:24.600 | They don't have to be these big grand things,

02:45:25.960 | but all of those little moments can add up

02:45:28.160 | in a really positive way.

02:45:29.720 | - What's your stance on household chores

02:45:31.360 | and should kids be paid for household chores?

02:45:33.920 | - Yes, I have a whole guide to chores and allowance.

02:45:36.760 | And I actually, you know, I think there's a lot of thought,

02:45:38.840 | like, should they be separate?

02:45:40.160 | I don't know, I think it could be done either way.

02:45:41.960 | But to me, the question for a parent is like,

02:45:44.920 | what is the point for me?

02:45:46.240 | Like, what is my goal for chores?

02:45:48.020 | What is my goal for allowance, right?

02:45:50.200 | And I think that has to then structure how we do it.

02:45:52.600 | So my guess is for chores, part of it is,

02:45:56.000 | I want my kid to, number one,

02:45:58.200 | maybe like help around the house.

02:45:59.500 | I want them to have that purpose.

02:46:00.680 | Also, like, I know for me for chores,

02:46:02.040 | like sometimes your life involves doing boring things.

02:46:06.020 | That is just true.

02:46:07.160 | And like, I want my kids to know that,

02:46:09.160 | which means they have to experience it.

02:46:10.400 | That's one of the reasons we do chores.

02:46:12.320 | So for me, if that's one of the reasons,

02:46:14.320 | I'm not gonna pay my kid.

02:46:16.060 | Because for me and my family,

02:46:17.980 | what I think my kids need to get out of it

02:46:20.000 | is just like knowing that sometimes you do boring things

02:46:22.560 | as part of being a good human.

02:46:23.860 | For someone else, that might be totally different.

02:46:25.680 | So I think we just ask ourselves as parents,

02:46:27.720 | like, what am I trying to accomplish?

02:46:29.520 | And then let me structure it around that.

02:46:31.980 | - Across the course of today's discussion,

02:46:33.600 | I've been feeling both immense gratitude and relief

02:46:37.160 | for certain quote unquote hardships that I experienced

02:46:40.640 | and things that my parents made me do

02:46:42.560 | or ways that they were negligent.

02:46:43.920 | And I was forced to figure things out.

02:46:45.700 | Also, you know, some things where I was like,

02:46:48.000 | huh, like wish they had done this.

02:46:49.440 | I think everyone listening to this will feel that way.

02:46:52.800 | And if you're lucky enough to still be

02:46:54.240 | in the parenting child or being a child process,

02:46:58.080 | then there's still time.

02:46:59.440 | So I guess there's always still time.

02:47:01.280 | In my introduction to this episode,

02:47:04.440 | I touched on a few of these,

02:47:05.680 | but tell us what you're doing these days

02:47:08.880 | to help parents and kids indirectly or directly

02:47:13.560 | to be more effective in their relationships.

02:47:16.360 | And, you know, I know you've written about this in books

02:47:20.840 | and you have a wonderful social media account on Instagram

02:47:23.960 | and elsewhere, I follow it.

02:47:26.200 | And there's oh, so much learning there.

02:47:28.160 | But, you know, how are you translating this knowledge

02:47:32.080 | into actionable programs?

02:47:34.720 | - Yeah, that is my, like,

02:47:37.620 | that is what gets me out of bed every morning

02:47:39.120 | is translating.

02:47:39.940 | I always say deep thoughts, actionable, practical,

02:47:42.720 | can do with today's strategies.

02:47:43.960 | - Yes.

02:47:44.780 | - That's the only way I can work.

02:47:45.680 | I'm like, tell me what to do to put that idea into action.

02:47:47.800 | - Love it.

02:47:48.640 | - So, you know, a couple of years ago,

02:47:52.040 | one of the things that really struck me was just like,

02:47:54.920 | I really did feel angry.

02:47:55.920 | Like, this is so messed up.

02:47:57.480 | We parents have the hardest job

02:47:59.160 | and it's the one that impacts the world the most.

02:48:01.360 | And I don't think any of us think the world

02:48:02.860 | is in like a great place right now, right?

02:48:05.960 | - Nah, it's not.

02:48:06.800 | - Right.

02:48:07.760 | And this is, and I remember someone coming up to me

02:48:10.320 | and saying, parenting is also the only job

02:48:12.400 | you care about on your death bed.

02:48:13.920 | And I think that's probably true if you have kids.

02:48:16.220 | So like, for every reason, this should be the place

02:48:20.280 | that they're, like, that we invest the most

02:48:23.180 | and that the system is like set up to help us, right?

02:48:25.980 | And most people I know, they don't wanna parent

02:48:27.900 | the exact same way as they were parented, maybe take parts.

02:48:30.420 | And that is the way we'll parent,

02:48:32.500 | just kind of the language we use.

02:48:34.520 | And learning a new language we know is totally possible.

02:48:38.020 | Like Duolingo has showed us that.

02:48:39.660 | You can learn a new language.

02:48:41.220 | It's hard.

02:48:42.060 | Sometimes you revert to your language of origin,

02:48:43.820 | especially in stressful moments, same thing in parenting,

02:48:45.640 | and then you go back.

02:48:46.860 | And so I remember saying to some people around me, like,

02:48:49.900 | I wanna create that, like, kind of Duolingo for parents.

02:48:54.660 | It is learning a new language and we should have a product

02:48:58.360 | where we have resources in one place.

02:49:00.620 | We should be able to connect to other parents

02:49:02.540 | around the globe.

02:49:03.380 | We were kind of doing this with us.

02:49:04.620 | We should have access to experts we trust,

02:49:06.240 | not because they always know better,

02:49:07.900 | but they might just help us have a different mindset

02:49:10.060 | and some ideas to help us again.

02:49:11.900 | And me, my mind is just act more in line

02:49:14.460 | with your own values.

02:49:15.340 | That's what it's about.

02:49:16.520 | And so that's what we created and that's what I'm working on

02:49:18.780 | and that's our Good Inside membership.

02:49:20.460 | And so excited about all the ways, you know,

02:49:24.240 | that's already impacting tens and tens of thousands

02:49:27.700 | of parents and that's where the resources are.

02:49:30.260 | It's bite-sized, it's actionable.

02:49:32.120 | We're really known for our scripts.

02:49:33.420 | It's like, what do I say to my kid when?

02:49:35.200 | Like, literally a joke, like, we have a script for that.

02:49:38.740 | And I think in a small way, people like say,

02:49:40.660 | like, I come for the scripts

02:49:41.900 | and then I stay for the revolution.

02:49:44.060 | Like, this is actually a journey of my own sturdiness

02:49:46.460 | and honestly becoming a sturdier, more confident leader

02:49:50.220 | is the only way we can raise sturdy, more confident kids.

02:49:53.060 | - Wow, I've said this again and again

02:49:55.580 | throughout today's discussion, but I love it.

02:49:57.840 | I love the gathering of information,

02:50:02.040 | the organizing it and dispersing it in actionable ways.

02:50:04.860 | And you've done all of that

02:50:06.660 | and you're continuing to do that.

02:50:08.100 | And you also have the clinical background

02:50:09.860 | and you're a parent.

02:50:11.020 | So you're speaking from professional

02:50:13.060 | and immediate experience.

02:50:15.100 | And you put, oh, so much work into it.

02:50:18.560 | I can tell that by the directness and simplicity

02:50:23.500 | of the actionables that you've taught us today.

02:50:26.740 | And also how much resides underneath

02:50:29.580 | those direct, simple actionables, just beautiful.

02:50:34.580 | I've had many conversations on this podcast

02:50:36.900 | with many brilliant people, including yourself.

02:50:40.760 | But this is among the ones that I really say

02:50:43.780 | has really me thinking.

02:50:45.580 | And I don't think I've ever said, wow,

02:50:46.980 | so many times during the discussion here.

02:50:49.480 | And there's just so much knowledge to be gleaned

02:50:52.060 | from today's discussion, thanks to you.

02:50:54.200 | And I just, on behalf of myself and everyone listening,

02:50:57.920 | parents and kids and those who want to be parents

02:51:00.700 | and those who don't and who have made the choice not to

02:51:05.700 | and are certainly engaged in other forms of relationship.

02:51:09.940 | And this is just absolute gold that you've provided us.

02:51:14.180 | So thank you ever so much.

02:51:17.020 | Your generosity, your clarity of communication

02:51:21.140 | and the heart behind it really comes through.

02:51:24.300 | So thank you.

02:51:25.940 | - Thank you so much.

02:51:27.740 | - Thank you for joining me for today's discussion

02:51:29.580 | about parent-child and other types of relationships

02:51:32.240 | with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

02:51:33.820 | To learn more about Dr. Kennedy's work,

02:51:35.780 | please see the links in the show note captions,

02:51:37.760 | including the links to her bestselling book,

02:51:39.700 | Good Inside and to the online learning platform

02:51:43.060 | for better parenting.

02:51:44.340 | You can also find links to her social media accounts.

02:51:46.900 | As I mentioned during today's episode,

02:51:48.700 | she has a terrific Instagram account

02:51:50.820 | in which she regularly posts practical tools

02:51:53.720 | for better parenting and other types of relationships.

02:51:56.380 | If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast,

02:51:58.920 | please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

02:52:00.940 | That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

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02:52:07.660 | And on both Spotify and Apple,

02:52:08.960 | you can leave us up to a five-star review.

02:52:11.420 | Please check out the sponsors mentioned

02:52:12.940 | at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

02:52:15.060 | That's the best way to support this podcast.

02:52:17.620 | If you have questions or comments about the podcast

02:52:20.060 | or topics or guests that you'd like to suggest

02:52:21.960 | for the Huberman Lab Podcast,

02:52:23.460 | please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

02:52:26.060 | I do read all the comments.

02:52:27.980 | Not so much on today's episode,

02:52:29.360 | but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast,

02:52:31.900 | we discuss supplements.

02:52:33.500 | While supplements aren't necessary for everybody,

02:52:35.620 | many people derive tremendous benefit from them

02:52:37.860 | for things like improving sleep,

02:52:39.560 | for improving hormone function, and for improving focus.

02:52:42.500 | To learn more about the supplements discussed

02:52:44.100 | on the Huberman Lab Podcast,

02:52:45.580 | visit Live Momentus, spelled O-U-S,

02:52:47.940 | so that's livemomentus.com/huberman.

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02:52:53.180 | I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

02:52:55.980 | So that's Instagram, Twitter,

02:52:57.380 | now called X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

02:53:00.580 | And on all those platforms,

02:53:01.900 | I discuss science and science-related tools,

02:53:03.980 | some of which overlaps with the content

02:53:05.520 | of the Huberman Lab Podcast,

02:53:06.880 | but much of which is distinct from the content covered

02:53:09.060 | on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

02:53:10.580 | Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

02:53:14.100 | If you haven't already subscribed

02:53:15.420 | to our monthly neural network newsletter,

02:53:17.600 | our neural network newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter

02:53:20.600 | that includes podcast summaries and protocols

02:53:23.220 | as short one- to three-page PDFs.

02:53:25.560 | For instance, we have zero-cost protocols

02:53:27.920 | for improving sleep, for improving dopamine function,

02:53:31.140 | for deliberate cold exposure, for fitness,

02:53:33.140 | for learning and neuroplasticity, and much more.

02:53:35.960 | To sign up for the newsletter,

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02:53:40.500 | scroll down to Newsletter, and supply your email.

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02:53:48.660 | Thank you once again for joining me

02:53:50.120 | for today's discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

02:53:53.100 | And last, but certainly not least,

02:53:55.300 | thank you for your interest in science.

02:53:57.220 | (upbeat music)

02:53:59.800 | (upbeat music)

Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds

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