Our Tumultuous Relationship With Work

00:00:00.000 | Let's get started now with our deep dive, which I am calling "Work vs. Meaning."

00:00:10.000 | So this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, is the history of our, let's

00:00:17.200 | call it, tumultuous, maybe, relationship between work and finding meaning in our lives.

00:00:25.040 | I've been thinking through this history, mainly in the American context, going back to about

00:00:29.560 | the post-war period, so starting in the 1950s.

00:00:32.640 | So what I've done is I've put together a timeline of what I think are the major milestones in

00:00:38.120 | our culture's evolving thinking about work and meaning, starting in the 1950s.

00:00:44.120 | So if you're watching this episode on YouTube, so at youtube.com/calnewportmedia, you're

00:00:50.720 | going to see this timeline on the screen right now.

00:00:53.040 | If you're just listening, don't worry, I'll walk you through what's on here.

00:00:56.880 | So the first element of this timeline is the 1950s.

00:01:00.880 | So in the 1950s, I call this the "Organization Man Period," which I describe as the period

00:01:08.160 | in which work is a substitute for civic life.

00:01:12.200 | So if we look at this immediate post-war period, what you see is a move away post-war from

00:01:18.880 | urban living as well as, let's say, rural, countryside, agriculture-related living, much

00:01:24.040 | more of the rise of suburban living.

00:01:27.960 | So as that occurred, people began looking towards their employers, which at this point

00:01:33.080 | were typically very large.

00:01:35.720 | We had the rise of the very large corporation.

00:01:38.240 | The US had emerged as a superpower.

00:01:40.920 | Our country and economy had not been destroyed by war, so we had this 20-year period of just

00:01:44.680 | basically dominating every sector.

00:01:46.240 | So we have these giant companies rising, these giant headquarters, and people moving to the

00:01:52.080 | suburbs, and the meaning they might have found before being involved in, let's say, civic

00:01:57.560 | leadership of the small town where they had a farm got transferred over to "my work is

00:02:01.680 | my family," "I'm very loyal to the company that I work for," "I will be there for my

00:02:08.000 | entire career."

00:02:09.840 | So I see this period as an expression of civic identity through work.

00:02:13.960 | So that's the way we were thinking about work then.

00:02:16.040 | Then we move to the 1960s, and we get the first backlash.

00:02:20.080 | So we did the 1950s, so now we get to the 1960s, we get the first backlash, which I

00:02:24.760 | call the counterculture backlash.

00:02:26.080 | So this is what we see in the beat movement followed by the hippie movement.

00:02:30.600 | And the way I describe this is work is now conceived as an obstacle to meaning.

00:02:37.080 | So the younger generation, the children of the World War II, the children of the greatest

00:02:42.520 | generation, so what's known as the baby boom generation, sort of had enough of this idea

00:02:47.000 | of the man in the flannel suit or organization man concept of, "I go and work at IBM my whole

00:02:52.160 | life and this is where I get a big sense of my civic meaning."

00:02:57.580 | So we get in the 1960s, a backlash in which work is seen as an obstacle to really figuring

00:03:02.800 | out meaningful lives.

00:03:04.560 | So we had a lot more individualistic, utopian lifestyle experimentation happening.

00:03:10.280 | This is where we had radical changes, let's say, in dress and attire, radical changes

00:03:14.280 | in living arrangements, we had communes, the back to nature movement, the voluntary simplicity

00:03:18.920 | movement.

00:03:19.920 | So everything we associate with that Woodstock generation, I'm conceiving now my sort of

00:03:23.880 | simplified trajectory here as a backlash to the 1950s organization man period.

00:03:28.800 | All right, so we're moving right along.

00:03:31.000 | Now we get to the 1990s.

00:03:34.320 | So this is when the older millennials like me or Jesse are in elementary school and junior

00:03:40.580 | high and high school, so sort of a formidable period for millennials.

00:03:46.280 | And here we get the rise of what I call passion culture.

00:03:50.500 | So I see this in some sense as the compromise that was created by our baby boomer parents.

00:03:57.840 | So our baby boomer parents had rejected the really straight laced organization man model

00:04:03.080 | of their parents.

00:04:04.800 | I get my sense of civic duty through a lifelong connection.

00:04:08.040 | They went very counterculture.

00:04:09.640 | Culture sort of fell apart in the 70s as drugs and sexually transmitted diseases sort of

00:04:15.160 | ripped that apart.

00:04:17.320 | And so they found the compromise to teach to their children, which is this passion culture.

00:04:20.800 | OK, you do have to work.

00:04:23.540 | Don't go live on a commune and just engage in free love and a lot of hardcore drug use.

00:04:29.560 | But your work can be your primary source of meaning.

00:04:34.680 | Follow your passion.

00:04:36.520 | This was the phrase that emerged in this period.

00:04:39.040 | As I document in my 2012 book, So Good They Can't Ignore You.

00:04:43.000 | Follow your passion emerges in this period.

00:04:45.600 | We see its first appearances in the late 1980s and it's really in the 1990s that this idea

00:04:50.820 | that follow your passion is a good piece of career advice.

00:04:53.400 | This emerges in the 1990s.

00:04:55.700 | And so this is how I understand the passion culture period is basically the baby boomers

00:04:59.240 | trying to figure out how to balance between these two extremes of we don't want to be

00:05:03.280 | fully countercultural.

00:05:05.120 | We know a lot of people that just burnt them out and kind of destroyed their lives.

00:05:08.120 | But we don't want just everyone to put back on the flannel suits and commute out to the,

00:05:12.120 | you know, the headquarters and just have this soulless type corporate existence.

00:05:17.520 | So what if work is your passion?

00:05:20.160 | So we got that culture.

00:05:21.160 | I was raised on it.

00:05:22.960 | You probably were you exposed to that a lot, Jesse, with the same age, the follow your

00:05:25.960 | passion, right?

00:05:26.960 | This was our childhood.

00:05:27.960 | Yeah, yeah.

00:05:28.960 | Yeah.

00:05:29.960 | That and the interesting you go back 20 years, you're not seeing that you go back even 10

00:05:33.480 | years before us.

00:05:34.480 | You're not seeing a lot of that.

00:05:35.480 | So that rose in the 1990s.

00:05:36.480 | All right.

00:05:37.560 | So then we get a backlash.

00:05:38.840 | See the cyclical nature of this movement backlash, new movement backlash.

00:05:44.080 | So in the 2000s, we see this emerging in the first decade of the 2000s into the second

00:05:51.880 | decade of the 2000s.

00:05:54.100 | We get a new backlash, which I'm calling the minimalist slash fire slash lifestyle design

00:06:01.120 | backlash.

00:06:03.640 | So I'm grouping together multiple movements that were all trying to do the same thing,

00:06:09.760 | which I describe as seeing work as a means to an end.

00:06:15.200 | So this backlash, I think, got some fuel from various financial crises throughout this period.

00:06:22.900 | You get the minimalist movement really comes out of that first dotcom boom and 9/11 recession

00:06:30.160 | in the early 2000s, and then you get the lifestyle design came at the tail end of that Tim Ferriss,

00:06:36.680 | the fire movement built on both of those.

00:06:38.480 | That was sort of more 2008 financial collapse.

00:06:41.760 | So it sort of emerged out of there.

00:06:43.040 | So there's a series of financial issues in the economy and these issues, these movements

00:06:47.920 | came out of it.

00:06:49.920 | So quick summary of each, I kind of have not quite in the right order here.

00:06:53.960 | I think the minimalist movement was probably first.

00:06:56.200 | We start getting this in the early 2000s and it's a move towards greatly simplifying your

00:07:02.000 | life.

00:07:03.360 | And there was the sense that if you greatly simplify your life, then you don't have to

00:07:06.920 | be working all the time.

00:07:10.320 | One of the best proponents of this movements are friends of the show, the minimalist Ryan

00:07:17.260 | and Joshua, who run the minimalist website and the excellent minimalist podcast.

00:07:23.660 | They were in this early.

00:07:24.800 | I've known them for a long time.

00:07:26.000 | I think they're probably one of the best exemplars of this movement, but they have this great

00:07:30.760 | backstory about how they were, they were, you know, really overloading themselves with

00:07:36.840 | work.

00:07:37.840 | Joshua, I think it was Joshua, maybe it was Ryan at some point had bought this massive

00:07:41.920 | house, even though they lived alone and it was full of boxes of stuff that they had boughten

00:07:47.320 | and they simplified everything.

00:07:49.360 | There's a while there when I knew them where they lived in a cabin, they'd gone through

00:07:52.820 | different living arrangements, but minimalism was about simplifying your lifestyle and that

00:07:56.880 | indirectly connected to simplifying what resources you needed from work.

00:08:02.440 | So simplifying your work life, lifestyle design came in that same milieu.

00:08:07.280 | This is Tim Ferriss saying, let's be more systematic.

00:08:10.680 | What you really want to do.

00:08:11.680 | Why don't you go do these fun, like interesting experiences now in your life.

00:08:15.720 | Don't wait to retire when you're in your sixties.

00:08:18.240 | And you can do that if you're careful about remote work and geo arbitrage, earning money

00:08:24.400 | in euros while living in a South American country with a depressed currency, et cetera.

00:08:30.860 | And then fire arose, financial independence, retire early.

00:08:34.540 | That movement arose in the second decade of the two thousands that really started to pick

00:08:39.020 | up steam.

00:08:40.020 | And that was this idea.

00:08:41.020 | We've talked about it before on the show, where if you have a good salary and live very

00:08:44.860 | cheaply, you can save a lot of money, you're saving most of your salary.

00:08:49.940 | And the amount of money you need to save to be financially independent is also small because

00:08:53.440 | you're living so cheaply.

00:08:54.440 | So if you're willing to continue living so cheaply, it's possible in about 10 years.

00:09:00.060 | And if I remember the math, right, if you have like a hundred thousand dollars, $150,000

00:09:05.420 | your tech job, and you're living on a quarter of it, something like this in 10 years, you're

00:09:11.740 | financially independent as long as you're willing to keep living cheaply.

00:09:16.300 | So all of that was work as a means to an end.

00:09:20.080 | So it's a reaction to the passion, the passion culture, which was saying work is your source

00:09:26.500 | of meaning.

00:09:27.660 | And this backlash that happened in the two thousands was saying, no, I'm going to go

00:09:32.220 | create my own meaningful life work just services that.

00:09:35.020 | And so I'm going to figure out how work can service what I want in my life with a minimal

00:09:38.300 | footprint.

00:09:39.300 | Again, each of these is pretty different.

00:09:43.140 | Now we get more recently, we get to the 2020s, we get to the post pandemic period.

00:09:48.420 | And here I described the current moment as the sort of quiet quitting, anti-capitalist

00:09:54.460 | Twitter moment.

00:09:56.820 | So we talked about quiet quitting in a recent episode.

00:10:01.020 | Anti-capitalism Twitter, this is really popular among the blue check sort of coastal crowd

00:10:04.260 | on Twitter.

00:10:05.540 | Lots of tweets about, you know, we basically have to re-engineer capitalism or get rid

00:10:12.260 | of capitalism.

00:10:13.260 | Work, all workers exploitative.

00:10:16.400 | And why do we even have to work in the first place?

00:10:18.540 | And there's this sort of classic sort of early 20th century sort of leftist tinge to that.

00:10:24.100 | So here I described this move, this final movement as work as a target for online activism.

00:10:28.500 | So it's work really being at the center of a conversation, the sort of online crowd based

00:10:36.060 | heavily in Twitter.

00:10:37.660 | All right.

00:10:39.380 | So that's been the trajectory, 1950s to today.

00:10:42.860 | Movement backlash, movement backlash.

00:10:45.980 | What do I think about our current situation?

00:10:47.660 | Well, here is the bold claim I'm going to make is number one, I am going to call this

00:10:54.660 | current movement with some trepidation, this quiet quitting anti-capitalist Twitter movement

00:11:00.860 | a red herring.

00:11:03.060 | Now I could be wrong about this, but this movement seems to be as much about the acquisition

00:11:09.760 | of social influence as it is a serious, I think, reform in the structure of work.

00:11:19.180 | It really is built around algorithmic reinforcement about what is getting views.

00:11:24.740 | I think this is a lot of what's driving quiet quitting.

00:11:26.980 | We talked about this before.

00:11:28.660 | There's some core frustrations which are very important, but also these TikTok videos are

00:11:33.500 | doing well.

00:11:35.020 | So more and more people are going to do these TikTok videos.

00:11:37.460 | It's going to inflate then the influence of this idea.

00:11:41.180 | Same thing with anti-capitalist Twitter.

00:11:43.860 | There's all these people on Twitter who are, you know, hey, all work is exploitative at

00:11:47.540 | the same time, desperately trying to get you to sign up for their sub stack and make a

00:11:53.140 | living doing online work.

00:11:54.580 | I think a lot of this gets inflated when we throw in the reinforcement loops of algorithmic

00:11:59.900 | content curation.

00:12:01.180 | So I think that those particular movements might be a red herring.

00:12:03.940 | Again, more about what happens to be gaining social credibility online right now than it

00:12:08.780 | is maybe some sort of serious challenge to what work should be.

00:12:13.560 | There's not really a clear, pragmatic, optimistic proposal for where we need to be, which is

00:12:21.700 | what we've seen in the past backlash movement.

00:12:23.980 | So I'm going to put that aside for now again with trepidation, but I don't use Twitter.

00:12:28.180 | So to me, I don't run into this as much.

00:12:31.320 | And I'm going to go back to the 2000s movement, the minimalist fire lifestyle design backlash

00:12:36.120 | movement, because what I think should happen and might happen next is instead of a brand

00:12:41.860 | new movement emerging, we're going to see a reform of what was broken about this work

00:12:48.300 | as a means to an end approach.

00:12:49.700 | Because I think this is probably going to be the dominant approach for career thinking

00:12:53.540 | for the next 10 or 20 years.

00:12:55.500 | There's just some corrections that we have to make.

00:12:58.620 | So here was the issue with the existing work as a means to an end philosophy that emerged

00:13:04.660 | in the 2000s.

00:13:05.660 | It was too technical because it came out of tech circles, which makes sense because it

00:13:11.500 | was being spread in the early days of web 2.0, who was more comfortable with those technologies,

00:13:17.580 | tech savvy people.

00:13:18.880 | So it came out of technical circles so that we get too much fiddly technical engineering

00:13:24.700 | detail.

00:13:26.420 | Minimalism suffered from this.

00:13:28.780 | I think the downfall, like why that movement deflated with the exception of a few exceptions

00:13:33.220 | like Josh and Ryan who are doing well, is that it got so fiddly about things like how

00:13:37.180 | many items you own, how many things can you fit into a backpack, what color do you have

00:13:43.420 | a white kitchen with just three appliances.

00:13:46.060 | It got too obsessive over these technical details.

00:13:50.020 | Fire had this same issue.

00:13:51.500 | Fire arose largely among engineering types because it was the engineering types who had

00:13:56.060 | the income in their 20s to actually put this type of plan into action.

00:14:00.280 | Because the key to fire is you have to survive on a relatively small fraction of your income,

00:14:05.380 | roughly 20 to 30 percent.

00:14:07.820 | For that to really be possible, that first income has to be pretty big.

00:14:11.140 | And so who's in the sweet spot of making a big income but not yet burdened with mortgages

00:14:16.860 | and families and school expenses and everything else that comes later in life is basically

00:14:21.180 | was computer programmers.

00:14:23.300 | So the fire movement arose among computer programmers and it got super technical too.

00:14:27.660 | It got super fiddly about tax loss harvesting and the exact right way to move your money

00:14:34.860 | around.

00:14:36.100 | And it really focused like a laser on the spreadsheets and on the mathematics of how

00:14:41.420 | you achieve this particular goal.

00:14:43.740 | So it got lost in its own specificity.

00:14:46.620 | And I think that was alienating to a broader audience and probably rightly so.

00:14:50.980 | So I think that was the issue with fire.

00:14:52.680 | And then as we talked about last week, it's been destabilized by that.

00:14:57.420 | And now even its proponents are trying to back away from it because it's under attack

00:15:00.900 | from the online crowds.

00:15:02.660 | Like this is elitist, it's all just engineers.

00:15:06.900 | Everyone is just being privileged.

00:15:08.180 | And so now they're kind of retreating and that's why that's losing steam.

00:15:13.100 | Lifestyle design sort of had the same issue.

00:15:15.300 | Tim Ferriss will talk about this.

00:15:16.660 | People got so fiddly in the details of lifestyle design.

00:15:20.740 | I had a friend who knew Tim well, and I remember back then he was getting really into lifestyle

00:15:26.500 | design and it was all about the automation and the tech.

00:15:30.540 | And he had the setup.

00:15:31.540 | I remember this clearly.

00:15:32.540 | He was showing me, here's what's going to support me as I live.

00:15:38.340 | He was living in Brazil, I think at the time.

00:15:41.920 | You would click a button.

00:15:43.580 | There's no reason to automate this other than it was just a cool factor.

00:15:45.820 | You would click a button and it would somehow go through one of these Google AdSense tools

00:15:51.340 | to find keywords that were making a lot of money.

00:15:54.980 | Like people were bidding a lot of money to sell ads with those keywords.

00:15:58.680 | It would then automatically send those keywords to copywriters in the Philippines, because

00:16:04.740 | I guess the Philippines, they have good English, to write a ton of pages for like HubSpot or

00:16:10.740 | one of these online page hosters that was big 10, 15 years ago.

00:16:15.580 | That could then be a good receptacle for ads for those words.

00:16:19.780 | And he was showing me some example of homemade rocking chair.

00:16:23.740 | It was something like this.

00:16:25.540 | That is a word that people were bidding a lot of money on, because I guess there was

00:16:30.220 | particular people that sell plans for homemade rocking chairs and are willing to pay for

00:16:33.380 | those clicks.

00:16:34.380 | So then his copywriters in the Philippines would then write 50 pages of content about

00:16:37.980 | homemade rocking chairs with all these links so that they could get those ads on there

00:16:41.260 | and try to maximize their money.

00:16:42.460 | And it was all this like minor arbitrage of $50 here, $100 there.

00:16:47.820 | That's what had that way down lifestyle design, too fiddly, too narrow, too technical, seemed

00:16:53.360 | too bro-y and it alienated sort of everyone else.

00:16:57.540 | My argument though is that this general approach, work as a means to an end, this general approach

00:17:06.020 | is salvageable.

00:17:08.100 | And what I'm recommending, what I see salvaging this philosophy is introducing values into

00:17:16.700 | it.

00:17:17.700 | What I mean by this is starting before you get to the fiddliness, starting with a vision

00:17:23.820 | of a life well lived.

00:17:26.320 | You cultivate your own understanding of the different aspects of your life, what you want

00:17:30.080 | your life to be like, what's important to you, what's your code, what's your definition

00:17:34.840 | of the deep life buckets, however you want to do this.

00:17:37.000 | But you start with this image, this vision of the life well lived that you feel in your

00:17:41.060 | bones and resonates.

00:17:43.720 | And then you work backwards and say, great, work services, work services this vision.

00:17:49.740 | And then all of these ideas that arose in the early 2000s about if I live simpler or

00:17:55.040 | if I live cheaper and save at an expansive rate, or if I use some like automation or

00:18:00.960 | really leverage remote working like Ferris talked about, all of these tools are in a

00:18:03.900 | toolbox that you can start pulling out of, but you're not pulling out these tools just

00:18:08.400 | for the arbitrary exercise of building something to some specs that have become increasingly

00:18:13.260 | refined online.

00:18:14.440 | You're building towards a life well lived, a vision of a life well lived that is specific

00:18:19.180 | and bespoke to you.

00:18:21.820 | So this is what I think is going to happen.

00:18:24.200 | Value based lifestyle centric career planning.

00:18:28.160 | This is going to be, I think, the big corrective, not whatever this stuff is, is going on online,

00:18:34.480 | not this let's reform capitalism and do TikTok videos about quiet quitting, red herring.

00:18:38.700 | The next big movement, I think, is going to be that shift of what was the minimalist fire

00:18:45.320 | lifestyle design backlash that's going to evolve into look this long acronym I'm writing

00:18:50.040 | here, values based lifestyle centric career planning, VBLCCP.

00:18:56.460 | If I'm anything, I'm a very savvy marketer.

00:18:59.840 | We're going to hear that phrase all the time.

00:19:02.280 | What's he up to, man?

00:19:03.280 | Hey, I'm just VBLCCP.

00:19:04.280 | You know what's going on?

00:19:05.280 | Like, yeah, I hear you, man.

00:19:06.480 | I'm in a VBLCCP life.

00:19:09.220 | We need a better acronym.

00:19:10.220 | But I think that is what Gen Z, I think that is what is going to fuel Gen Z.

00:19:16.380 | I think this is what's compatible with Gen Z.

00:19:19.620 | I think this is going to be the next, I don't know how long it'll last.

00:19:22.300 | I think this is going to be the next big movement.

00:19:24.380 | It's also, of course, the philosophy that we're preaching all the time.

00:19:28.620 | So we'll get more into this.

00:19:29.620 | We have some questions in today's show that will dive into some more technical details.

00:19:32.340 | But I just wanted to do this overview.

00:19:34.820 | Let's place our current discussions in this long trajectory.

00:19:37.380 | And what we see, we see movements, backlashes, movement, backlashes.

00:19:40.480 | And I think we're in this interesting time where we're taking a backlash that emerged

00:19:43.340 | over the last 20 years.

00:19:45.500 | And with perhaps the help of the pandemic and disruptions that caused and the way that

00:19:49.720 | that mainstreamed the idea of lifestyle design and engineering, maybe we're going to see

00:19:54.260 | a refinement of a backlash and finally get one that might actually have some legs.

00:19:57.940 | So VBLCCP, value space, lifestyle centric career planning.

00:20:02.420 | Take my word for it.

00:20:04.220 | That is going to hopefully be one of the dominant ideas in the ongoing debate between work and

00:20:10.460 | meaning in the years ahead.

00:20:13.360 | Was the organization, man, that going on in the 40s and 30s too?

00:20:16.660 | I mean, it was a book.

00:20:19.340 | So I'm taking that from the book that came out in 1956.

00:20:23.300 | And I think it's post-war.

00:20:26.680 | I think really you don't get these large corporations and people subjugating their sense of civic

00:20:34.680 | worth to corporations.

00:20:35.680 | I think that's really like a mid 40s and on type of phenomenon.

00:20:38.280 | Though I could be wrong about that.

00:20:40.360 | So then the counterculture backlash lasted for a good 30 years?

00:20:45.280 | Let's say that picked up steam mid 60s.

00:20:48.360 | I don't know, not really 30 years.

00:20:50.080 | I see the counterculture backlash picked up steam in the mid 60s.

00:20:52.840 | I mean, you had the beat movement emerging in the late 50s.

00:20:56.340 | That doesn't really start to catch on wider until the 60s.

00:20:59.880 | Mid 60s, you get the bigger countercultural backlash.

00:21:02.800 | Vietnam, of course, like explodes the whole thing because now you have this huge sort

00:21:06.360 | of generational divide and protests going on.

00:21:10.760 | But I think by the disco era that had kind of flamed out.

00:21:14.320 | I mean, a few things happened, right?

00:21:16.400 | I mean, sexually transmitted diseases, drugs, like the mind, you know, people started having

00:21:22.680 | LSD freakouts.

00:21:24.880 | Like the things were happening with the drugs that weren't happening before.

00:21:28.480 | So I think that was that became a big part of it.

00:21:30.240 | Like people were burning out and frying out.

00:21:33.080 | And so by the disco era, by the late 70s, that was really dying out.

00:21:36.640 | And then the 80s, you got this sort of rise of let's all go make money.

00:21:42.480 | And that was going on.

00:21:43.560 | And then but it was the same.

00:21:44.560 | It was the same generation.

00:21:45.560 | The yuppies were the same people who were part of the counterculture backlash.

00:21:50.320 | So they kind of ended up going and making money.

00:21:51.840 | And I think they were guilty about this.

00:21:53.280 | So for us, they taught us, well, don't be a hippie, but get a job you love.

00:21:58.320 | And so I really think that was just the compromise.

00:22:00.220 | And I wrote a whole book.

00:22:01.220 | So if you're new to the show or new to me, my book, So Good They Can't Ignore You is

00:22:04.640 | a takedown of the passion culture idea, why it doesn't work, why just telling someone

00:22:10.280 | to follow your passion is not a sound bit of career advice.

00:22:14.760 | It sounded good, but it doesn't work in practice.

00:22:17.960 | We'll see.

00:22:19.440 | And there could be something else new.

00:22:20.600 | But I think there's a lot of power to this work as a means to an end model.

00:22:24.280 | And I haven't really seen a major alternative.

00:22:27.840 | A lot of the stuff I'm seeing that's gaining traction, people resonating with people is

00:22:31.920 | really still in this framework.

00:22:33.240 | I think people are just refining it, trying to understand how to get away from, you know,

00:22:38.120 | computer engineers doing spreadsheets about their admiral shares in Vanguard and what

00:22:42.480 | their overhead fees are and get towards something that the rest of us might actually see as

00:22:46.520 | viable.

00:22:47.520 | Thank you.

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Our Tumultuous Relationship With Work

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