Mark Normand: Comedy! | Lex Fridman Podcast #255

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Mark Normand,

00:00:02.720 | a New York comedian who has a way with words

00:00:05.320 | that is often both dark and hilarious.

00:00:08.400 | Let that be a warning, dear friends,

00:00:10.400 | to proceed with caution and to wear protection.

00:00:13.520 | You may, in fact, need it.

00:00:16.160 | He has a special on his YouTube called "Out to Lunch"

00:00:19.360 | and a new special on Netflix

00:00:21.160 | as part of the "Stand Up" season three series

00:00:23.880 | I recommend you watch.

00:00:26.040 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:00:28.160 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:30.360 | in the description.

00:00:31.520 | And now, here's my conversation with Mark Normand.

00:00:35.440 | I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first,

00:00:38.520 | so let me continue on that tradition

00:00:40.360 | and ask you about something

00:00:42.200 | that Charles Bukowski said about love.

00:00:44.640 | - Wait, are we rolling?

00:00:46.120 | - Yes.

00:00:46.940 | - Oh, geez, no hello, no nothing.

00:00:48.480 | - Nope. - I thought I was robotic.

00:00:50.080 | (laughing)

00:00:51.640 | - Bukowski said, "Love is a fog that burns away

00:00:54.840 | "with the first daylight of reality."

00:00:57.200 | So, Mark Normand, let me first ask you about love.

00:01:00.560 | What are your thoughts about love?

00:01:02.880 | You talk about your relationships quite a bit.

00:01:05.320 | Do you think love can last?

00:01:07.680 | - I do, but I think it's work.

00:01:10.800 | Everybody wants love to be this pre-packaged,

00:01:13.560 | perfect, euphoric thing, but you gotta,

00:01:16.940 | it's like a good body, you know?

00:01:20.200 | We're all born with a good body,

00:01:21.660 | but you gotta keep it in shape,

00:01:23.000 | and it's the same with a loving relationship.

00:01:25.880 | - I think you--

00:01:27.400 | - Nobody wants to do the work, that's the problem.

00:01:30.240 | - You talked about, I think you told a story

00:01:32.480 | about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend

00:01:35.320 | or something like that.

00:01:36.720 | I think the story goes that you were drifting apart.

00:01:41.440 | Who were you talking to, Bert Kreischer maybe

00:01:43.280 | or something like that?

00:01:44.120 | - Oh, yeah, we were high school sweethearts,

00:01:46.080 | dated for 12 years, and then--

00:01:48.780 | - So, that wasn't love anymore.

00:01:50.080 | That was more like relationship, that was like--

00:01:51.640 | - It was comfort, it was routine,

00:01:53.360 | and we just slipped into that married life,

00:01:56.000 | autopilot world, and I tried to break up, I think,

00:02:01.000 | and it didn't take, it was one of those things.

00:02:04.400 | Our lives were just so baked in,

00:02:07.500 | and then I think I cheated, and she caught me,

00:02:10.680 | and it was ugly, and then we went to therapy

00:02:12.760 | to try to work it out, but it's much like a car

00:02:15.520 | that gets into a wreck, the door just never closes the same.

00:02:18.760 | You know what I mean?

00:02:19.680 | - Yeah, so what are your thoughts about then commitment,

00:02:23.480 | like outside of love, marriage?

00:02:25.720 | - I think it's an antiquated idea.

00:02:27.480 | I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic,

00:02:30.640 | and I think we're coming out of that.

00:02:31.880 | As we get all polyamorous and non-binary and queefy

00:02:35.360 | and all this stuff, I think we're slowly moving away

00:02:38.120 | from that, but I think a lot of the ladies,

00:02:41.240 | more majority women like marriage, like the idea of it.

00:02:45.400 | Like, I'm a fiance now, or whatever you call it.

00:02:48.640 | I'm engaged, and I mean, she is just,

00:02:51.920 | woo-wee, going hog wild.

00:02:54.560 | She's loving it.

00:02:55.400 | She's got the dress thing, pick a venue, flower,

00:02:57.720 | and she's deep in, whereas I feel guilty,

00:03:00.560 | 'cause I'm just like, ah, jeez.

00:03:03.180 | - Is it planned already?

00:03:05.600 | When's the wedding?

00:03:06.440 | - You see "Squid Game"?

00:03:07.260 | I'm just living life.

00:03:08.880 | Yeah, it's planned.

00:03:11.560 | It's in New Orleans.

00:03:12.400 | I'm from there, and it's next year.

00:03:14.980 | Are you married?

00:03:16.880 | - No, single.

00:03:17.760 | - Virgin?

00:03:19.320 | - Of course, yeah.

00:03:20.160 | - I can't imagine.

00:03:20.980 | I bet you'd be great in bed.

00:03:21.880 | You're ripped.

00:03:22.720 | You'd be the best hairline in podcasting.

00:03:25.520 | - Yeah, I don't know.

00:03:26.360 | I haven't tried yet, so we'll have to see.

00:03:27.760 | - All right, well, let me know.

00:03:28.840 | Pretty big hog on you?

00:03:30.840 | Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.

00:03:35.840 | - That matters to girls?

00:03:38.280 | - Apparently, yeah.

00:03:39.240 | That's all I hear about.

00:03:40.440 | - Okay, New Orleans.

00:03:42.720 | You grew up in New Orleans?

00:03:43.780 | - Yeah, born and raised.

00:03:45.280 | Treme, outside the French Quarter.

00:03:47.640 | - You ever been?

00:03:48.480 | - Yeah, don't remember it.

00:03:50.520 | - Oh, you drink?

00:03:51.640 | - Yeah, I drink.

00:03:52.480 | Of course I drink.

00:03:53.300 | - I don't know.

00:03:54.140 | I can't tell if you have fun.

00:03:54.960 | - No, not really, but Russian, of course I drink vodka,

00:03:58.480 | all that kind of stuff.

00:03:59.320 | - Oh, you're Russian.

00:04:00.140 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:00.980 | - Yes.

00:04:01.820 | - I don't know.

00:04:02.640 | - Vodka.

00:04:03.480 | Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011.

00:04:05.480 | Fun fact.

00:04:06.440 | - What do you mean?

00:04:07.280 | - In Russia.

00:04:08.400 | It was just drinks.

00:04:09.320 | It was just like apple juice before.

00:04:10.840 | It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.

00:04:16.360 | Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing.

00:04:18.400 | - I guess so.

00:04:19.520 | - Yeah.

00:04:20.360 | - See, that's where your brain goes.

00:04:21.180 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:22.020 | - I just go, oh, these fucking Russkies are--

00:04:22.860 | - I didn't even know there was rules about drinking.

00:04:25.520 | This is good.

00:04:26.360 | I'm learning about Russia from you.

00:04:27.600 | So what's the difficult memory experience from childhood

00:04:31.960 | in New Orleans that made you the man you are today?

00:04:36.960 | - I don't know if it made me the man, but jeez.

00:04:41.840 | I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood.

00:04:45.860 | I was the white kid in the neighborhood.

00:04:47.400 | So I was automatically the odd man out,

00:04:51.000 | the minority, the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky.

00:04:54.840 | So just a lot of memories of getting slapped in the face

00:04:59.400 | by guys and just having to take it

00:05:01.320 | 'cause there's five guys there.

00:05:02.840 | And they'd be like, oh, look, you didn't even fight back.

00:05:04.880 | And you're like, well, what am I gonna do?

00:05:06.240 | Hit you and then get beat up by these guys?

00:05:07.880 | So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up.

00:05:12.160 | Got robbed all the time.

00:05:14.160 | Lost a lot of bicycles.

00:05:16.060 | Had a bicycle taken from under me.

00:05:17.420 | That was pretty brutal.

00:05:19.420 | These kids pulled up.

00:05:21.160 | They're like 17 and I was 13 and I had a face paint on.

00:05:26.160 | Like I had a, not black face, but I was at a summer camp

00:05:30.200 | and I had a rainbow face painted on me.

00:05:32.440 | We were helping kids that day.

00:05:34.040 | So I let them put paint on me.

00:05:36.440 | And so now I'm riding home.

00:05:38.020 | What a mark, what a goober I am.

00:05:40.940 | I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away.

00:05:43.000 | I'm a sitting duck and they go,

00:05:44.080 | we can take his bike.

00:05:44.920 | He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek.

00:05:47.000 | So they just go, hey, like cut in front of you.

00:05:50.720 | They go, let me try your bike.

00:05:51.760 | I go, I'm good, I'm good.

00:05:53.120 | I knew what they wanted.

00:05:54.480 | And they go, let me try the bike.

00:05:56.240 | And then they just pushed me and took the bike.

00:05:58.400 | So stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity,

00:06:02.160 | the self-worth.

00:06:04.000 | - They did, 'cause I've been mugged when I was younger too.

00:06:09.360 | - Really?

00:06:10.400 | - Yeah, it changes your view of human nature a little bit.

00:06:13.680 | - For sure, you go, wow,

00:06:14.760 | I didn't know people could be this mean, this cruel.

00:06:18.240 | Inconsiderate, I'm always worried about it.

00:06:20.280 | Did I fart too much?

00:06:21.400 | Am I annoying?

00:06:22.560 | Am I pissing this guy off?

00:06:23.820 | But what a way to live.

00:06:25.560 | Just I want the bike, I'm taking it.

00:06:28.360 | Fuck his feelings.

00:06:30.040 | - For me, that quickly turned into realizing

00:06:33.600 | that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in.

00:06:36.640 | Like they have a capacity to be good.

00:06:39.960 | - Sure.

00:06:40.800 | - For some reason, for me,

00:06:42.240 | that was a motivation to see can we discover,

00:06:44.800 | can we incentivize them to find a better path in life?

00:06:49.800 | I wasn't all, I don't know, Gandhi about it.

00:06:53.320 | Of course, I was pissed and all those kinds of things,

00:06:55.520 | but I don't know, it seemed like just the kind of thing

00:07:00.520 | you might do when you're younger.

00:07:03.420 | - You hope, but this is adult crime, obviously.

00:07:07.780 | - Yeah, I know, but yeah, exactly.

00:07:09.320 | And then it solidifies,

00:07:10.760 | and then you're beyond saving at some point.

00:07:12.720 | But it's like there's always an opportunity

00:07:16.080 | to make a better life for yourself,

00:07:20.840 | to become a better version of yourself.

00:07:22.920 | - Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike,

00:07:25.600 | and my mom, my parents are like liberal to a fault.

00:07:29.600 | - Yeah.

00:07:30.440 | - Where they were like, oh, well, they need it.

00:07:31.840 | They're poor kids in the neighborhood.

00:07:33.640 | And you're like, all right.

00:07:34.640 | But I also have a bicycle that I ride around,

00:07:38.280 | and I also like to live in an area that's not just riddled

00:07:41.640 | with theft and vandalism, but they were just like,

00:07:45.040 | ah, they need it, and then it was a moot point.

00:07:47.160 | We just moved on.

00:07:48.160 | So I remember very young being like,

00:07:49.600 | all right, I gotta figure my shit out.

00:07:51.740 | - Okay, so you said you were beat up quite a bit,

00:07:56.560 | like bullying and stuff?

00:07:57.620 | - Pushed around, I was never hospitalized or anything,

00:08:00.000 | but you get a black guy here and there,

00:08:02.440 | and a bloody nose, stuff like that.

00:08:04.240 | And it was just the outnumbered thing.

00:08:05.960 | The violence didn't really bother me,

00:08:08.200 | 'cause you're just kids, you're boys.

00:08:10.280 | But it was the predatory, let's get him.

00:08:14.400 | We can take him down.

00:08:15.960 | He's an easy target.

00:08:17.860 | That's what kills you, the mental part.

00:08:20.320 | - Yeah, until you actually said that, I didn't realize.

00:08:25.240 | I've been in, what do you call them, scuffles.

00:08:28.380 | And there's just one that stands out to me where--

00:08:32.200 | - Let's hear it, fatty, bring it on.

00:08:34.640 | And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right?

00:08:36.960 | - Yeah, I can see the guns through the suit,

00:08:38.960 | you're like John Wick.

00:08:40.120 | - All right, well, I used to have,

00:08:42.680 | now you're gonna start making fun of me,

00:08:43.960 | I used to have long hair for a couple years.

00:08:46.360 | I was in a band, playing music and stuff like that.

00:08:48.620 | And there was, most of the fights I've been in

00:08:51.880 | were basically one-on-one, maybe a little bit,

00:08:55.000 | a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered.

00:08:58.760 | And this one particular time,

00:09:00.700 | I've learned a lot of lessons, but one of them was,

00:09:05.080 | there was a fight started between me and this other person,

00:09:08.200 | and then his buddies, I guess, were there.

00:09:12.360 | And they, as opposed to breaking it up

00:09:14.000 | or letting it happen, one of them grabbed my hair.

00:09:19.000 | It's the first time anybody grabbed,

00:09:21.400 | used my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized

00:09:24.800 | that that's actually a really powerful grip

00:09:26.440 | and a powerful weapon.

00:09:27.680 | - Oh, very vulnerable of you.

00:09:29.160 | - And then my head got pulled back

00:09:31.600 | and they pulled me down to the ground.

00:09:32.840 | I couldn't do anything, it was so,

00:09:34.480 | I remember being exceptionally frustrated.

00:09:36.960 | - Yes. - That was the feeling,

00:09:38.400 | like, I can't do anything here, I'm trapped.

00:09:42.360 | And then they were just kicking me and hitting me

00:09:44.800 | and stuff like that.

00:09:45.800 | The outnumbered part of it,

00:09:47.500 | 'cause I always remember the trapped part

00:09:51.480 | because I just hated, from a fighting,

00:09:53.800 | grappling perspective, how, the feeling was,

00:09:57.720 | this isn't fair.

00:09:58.720 | - Yes, that's what it is.

00:09:59.960 | It's a deep, deep unfairness that you just can't win.

00:10:04.200 | The mob wins.

00:10:05.520 | - Yeah, the mob wins.

00:10:06.800 | - Scary stuff, but it makes a man out of you

00:10:09.520 | in a weird way that builds character.

00:10:10.840 | You realize life isn't fair early and you go on from there.

00:10:14.720 | So there's something there.

00:10:15.960 | And look at you today.

00:10:17.020 | They're probably eating out of a dumpster at a Krispy Kreme

00:10:20.080 | and you're here, got eight podcasts,

00:10:22.320 | you're doing great, talking to giant titans of the industry.

00:10:26.720 | - No, I do remember returning home that night.

00:10:29.560 | I mean, that, you said you were crying.

00:10:31.620 | That's really formative.

00:10:33.200 | - Oh yeah. - That's the point

00:10:34.400 | at which you get to decide, what do I make of this moment?

00:10:37.480 | Especially when you're younger,

00:10:38.520 | maybe it's not presented to you that way,

00:10:40.760 | but some of the greatest people in history

00:10:43.520 | were bullied in these kinds of ways.

00:10:47.240 | And they made something of themselves in this moment.

00:10:49.160 | Bullied by life in some kind of way.

00:10:51.560 | It's like an opportunity for growth.

00:10:53.400 | It's weird, but hardship, even in small doses,

00:10:58.160 | is like an opportunity for growth.

00:11:00.080 | - Totally, I mean, look at Richard Pryor.

00:11:01.520 | They say he's labeled as the best comedian of all time.

00:11:03.600 | Grew up in a whorehouse,

00:11:04.720 | watched his mom get plowed by these guys

00:11:06.800 | in the middle of Indiana, I wanna say.

00:11:10.880 | And just, who had a harder life?

00:11:12.720 | Who would suck dick for drugs?

00:11:14.040 | All this stuff growing up, beat up.

00:11:16.520 | And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry,

00:11:20.320 | that's my birth control alarm.

00:11:22.360 | And then the whole world is trying to get rid of bullying,

00:11:25.800 | but we still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying.

00:11:28.640 | It's very strange.

00:11:29.920 | - So you're a proponent of beating kids up,

00:11:33.120 | is that what you're saying?

00:11:33.960 | - Yes, and sex with them.

00:11:35.520 | - All right.

00:11:36.800 | - But no, I just think it's part of life

00:11:40.600 | and it's horrible, it's like rain.

00:11:42.400 | You gotta have it.

00:11:43.240 | Look, a rainy day's a bummer, you know, but you need it.

00:11:45.440 | And I think it's similar to that.

00:11:47.840 | - What was your relationship like with your mom and your dad?

00:11:53.040 | What are some memorable moments with them?

00:11:54.880 | What did you learn from them?

00:11:56.000 | - Good parents.

00:11:57.440 | They're giving, thoughtful.

00:11:59.680 | A little out to lunch, you know, they were workaholics.

00:12:04.680 | So it was hard to get a lot out of them.

00:12:08.600 | And my dad was kind of an angry dad.

00:12:10.520 | I think he just had like a weird childhood

00:12:13.320 | and he's just trying to make it

00:12:14.440 | and he's trying to provide, but it's hard.

00:12:16.800 | And we live in this horrible neighborhood

00:12:18.800 | and we're getting robbed all the time.

00:12:20.700 | So life was kind of coming down on him all the time.

00:12:24.400 | So then he'll take it out on you or whoever, he would snap.

00:12:27.880 | But great parents, they cared, they put us first.

00:12:31.180 | But there wasn't a lot of,

00:12:33.920 | I don't know, you ever go to a friend's house as a kid

00:12:37.240 | and there's like a picture of a ski trip

00:12:39.240 | and you're like, ski trip?

00:12:40.800 | What the hell is that about?

00:12:42.640 | It wasn't a lot of that.

00:12:43.480 | And smart, very smart people,

00:12:46.520 | but I don't know how well they were at socializing.

00:12:49.680 | - So you never like bonded with them

00:12:51.240 | like on a deep human level?

00:12:52.840 | - There was some bonding, but rarely deep.

00:12:54.640 | Yeah, it was just almost coworker.

00:12:57.320 | - Hey, cold out, huh?

00:12:59.360 | - What?

00:13:00.200 | - It's cold out, huh?

00:13:01.320 | - Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff.

00:13:02.320 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

00:13:03.800 | - Get there a little bit, but my parents,

00:13:06.360 | and I hope they never hear this,

00:13:07.720 | but they would do a thing where,

00:13:09.240 | my dad especially would do a thing where he would,

00:13:11.920 | he knew how to cut you down right to the bone.

00:13:14.440 | And so after a while you're like,

00:13:15.980 | I'm not even gonna interact with this guy

00:13:17.240 | 'cause he can get you so well.

00:13:20.020 | One time we were at like a Thanksgiving,

00:13:22.320 | some kind of family event and all the cousins are there.

00:13:25.520 | And I remember I was holding court.

00:13:26.880 | I was a young boy finding my comedic legs

00:13:30.280 | in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family.

00:13:33.720 | And I was killing.

00:13:35.180 | And my dad comes out and he goes,

00:13:38.000 | "What are you holding court?"

00:13:39.640 | And I was like, "Ah."

00:13:41.200 | And I felt like I was this big.

00:13:42.600 | I just shrunk down.

00:13:44.180 | He just nailed it.

00:13:45.100 | 'Cause in my head I'm like,

00:13:45.940 | "I'm holding court, look at me.

00:13:46.880 | "I got the whole room."

00:13:47.720 | And he goes, "What are you holding court here?"

00:13:50.000 | And I'm like, "Who the hell do you think you are?"

00:13:51.560 | And I was like, "He's right.

00:13:53.120 | "I shouldn't be holding court.

00:13:53.960 | "Who the fuck am I?

00:13:54.800 | "I'm nobody."

00:13:55.620 | So stuff like that.

00:13:57.560 | - Was he aware of that you think?

00:13:58.680 | - He wasn't, he wasn't.

00:13:59.720 | I don't think he was, but.

00:14:01.280 | - Do you give parents a pass

00:14:04.240 | when they're unaware of the destructive?

00:14:07.400 | Like is it better when they're unaware?

00:14:09.560 | 'Cause it seems like that's the way.

00:14:11.160 | - That's true.

00:14:12.000 | - That's the way parents often fail

00:14:13.920 | is they're not intentionally malevolent.

00:14:18.260 | They're just like clueless.

00:14:20.160 | - Yeah.

00:14:21.200 | It's a bittersweet thing.

00:14:22.800 | 'Cause you're like, "Well, okay, he's not malicious.

00:14:24.280 | "He's not trying to hurt me,

00:14:25.980 | "but also he doesn't know he hurt me."

00:14:29.940 | I don't know, it's tough.

00:14:31.260 | 'Cause if he was trying to hurt you,

00:14:33.660 | I guess that would be worse.

00:14:35.460 | - So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point.

00:14:39.540 | - Yeah, it's a shitty cake.

00:14:41.880 | - Do you--

00:14:43.820 | - Fruit salad.

00:14:45.380 | - You know, the sense of self-worth you mentioned.

00:14:47.880 | I think in your comedy,

00:14:50.980 | there's a sense like you hate yourself.

00:14:52.900 | - You think?

00:14:53.740 | (laughing)

00:14:54.560 | I didn't know if that came through.

00:14:55.400 | Shit, I was trying to hide that part.

00:14:57.420 | God damn it.

00:14:58.320 | - I mean, when you, in the privacy of your mind,

00:15:01.580 | are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self-hate?

00:15:07.300 | - Jeez, what happened to this podcast?

00:15:09.020 | I didn't know it was on Dr. Phil.

00:15:11.140 | - Dr. Phil.

00:15:11.980 | - I thought we were gonna talk about engineering

00:15:13.620 | and climate change and rockets.

00:15:17.180 | - We'll get there.

00:15:18.020 | - Okay.

00:15:18.840 | - "Stars with Love" goes to rockets.

00:15:20.060 | - All right, I like that.

00:15:21.260 | I like that's a T-shirt.

00:15:23.420 | I mean, like--

00:15:25.540 | - What's the question?

00:15:26.380 | Sorry.

00:15:27.220 | (laughing)

00:15:28.040 | Do I feel love?

00:15:29.100 | - No, no, like--

00:15:29.940 | - I love myself.

00:15:31.180 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:32.020 | So are you, like this engine of being self-critical,

00:15:37.020 | of just being constantly anxious

00:15:40.700 | about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things,

00:15:43.940 | is this something that you just go to for comedy

00:15:47.240 | or is this who you are as a human being?

00:15:50.180 | - I think I don't wanna explore it.

00:15:52.100 | I think I get around it.

00:15:54.140 | You know, I tap dance around it,

00:15:55.360 | but I get it out a little with my act, maybe,

00:15:57.940 | 'cause I can't do it.

00:15:59.380 | I'm not doing it in real life.

00:16:00.580 | So I'll get out this no love, not loving myself.

00:16:04.780 | I don't know, who wants to love themself?

00:16:06.140 | Everybody always, you gotta love yourself,

00:16:07.520 | and then when you meet somebody who does love yourself,

00:16:09.100 | you're like, I fucking hate this guy.

00:16:11.340 | Don't you hate the guy who's upset?

00:16:12.700 | I'm great, I'm awesome, life is good.

00:16:15.220 | You're like, ah, this guy sucks.

00:16:17.140 | I'd rather an insecure guy.

00:16:18.980 | So maybe I wanna stay insecure.

00:16:20.220 | Maybe I don't wanna find this love for myself.

00:16:22.820 | - Well, okay, so self-love,

00:16:25.500 | like just appreciating who you are

00:16:27.900 | or appreciating the moment or being grateful

00:16:30.140 | doesn't have to express itself

00:16:32.140 | by the guy saying, I'm awesome.

00:16:34.820 | - True.

00:16:35.640 | - It's more just like humility.

00:16:36.660 | It's just like walking calmly through the world

00:16:38.460 | and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing.

00:16:40.540 | And just-- - That's good.

00:16:42.260 | - And being appreciative of all the accomplishments

00:16:44.580 | that you made so far.

00:16:45.420 | I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self-critical

00:16:49.220 | in everything I do.

00:16:50.460 | And so, and I kinda enjoy it.

00:16:54.220 | I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun.

00:16:57.180 | It makes life fun 'cause it's like,

00:16:59.140 | if you hate everything you do,

00:17:02.020 | like you've done in the past,

00:17:04.220 | that gives you like, all right, we can do better.

00:17:06.540 | - Yes, but that's the key is making yourself critical.

00:17:09.500 | Always trying to get better.

00:17:10.660 | I could change this, I could tweak this,

00:17:11.980 | I could improve this.

00:17:13.300 | When you just go, I hate that I do this, I suck,

00:17:15.500 | you just shut down.

00:17:16.340 | So that's the key is always being productive

00:17:19.580 | with the criticism.

00:17:21.420 | - Yeah, and the basics of life,

00:17:22.740 | I'm just like grateful for it, to be alive.

00:17:24.780 | That's nice to be a couple of that with--

00:17:27.660 | - Two legs. - Self-criticism.

00:17:28.860 | - Again, the hairline, the hog, the muscles, the world.

00:17:33.020 | You got a good brain on you.

00:17:34.260 | I mean, you're lucky.

00:17:35.780 | You're in the top, you know, most people are fat as shit

00:17:38.580 | at Burger King right now hitting their kids.

00:17:41.020 | You're in a Ramada hotel sitting with, you know,

00:17:46.140 | low-level comedian.

00:17:47.660 | - For the record, I ate McDonald's last night.

00:17:49.620 | - Oh, all right, well, you're human.

00:17:52.180 | - Well, just so you know, this is not me defending,

00:17:54.580 | I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat meat

00:17:57.620 | and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have.

00:18:01.340 | It's actually one of the easiest ways late at night--

00:18:04.020 | - I think it's horse, I don't know if it's actually cow.

00:18:07.020 | - It's actually rats, yeah, you're right.

00:18:09.140 | - But hey, it's just meat.

00:18:10.500 | I'm a meat guy myself.

00:18:11.940 | They say in 20 years we're gonna look back and go,

00:18:15.460 | can you believe people ate meat?

00:18:16.540 | It's gonna look like somebody like slavery.

00:18:18.540 | - Yeah, there's some ethical, difficult things

00:18:21.100 | with factory farming.

00:18:22.660 | - Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it.

00:18:26.180 | - And now it's on record.

00:18:27.580 | Tom Waits said something about New York.

00:18:31.420 | You like Tom Waits?

00:18:32.300 | - I think he's underrated.

00:18:33.460 | I think he's got great, he's got a great,

00:18:35.900 | he's great at quips and quotes.

00:18:38.020 | Check him out on YouTube.

00:18:39.300 | He's got some montages and super cuts of him being hilarious.

00:18:43.460 | - What does he say about,

00:18:44.760 | "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me

00:18:49.060 | "than a frontal lobotomy."

00:18:50.460 | - That was the one, that was the one that sold me.

00:18:52.420 | I was like, this guy's awesome.

00:18:53.580 | - Yeah, but his music, 'cause he's just a genius musician.

00:18:56.900 | - Yeah.

00:18:57.740 | - Anyway, he was talking about New York.

00:18:59.780 | I was walking around these, I'm in New York right now,

00:19:01.980 | we're in New York right now.

00:19:03.420 | It's still a magical city to me.

00:19:04.900 | A lot of people are quite cynical about it,

00:19:06.900 | about the state of things, but--

00:19:08.260 | - Rogan.

00:19:09.100 | (laughing)

00:19:10.220 | - Not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine,

00:19:13.260 | they're just, a lot of folks,

00:19:14.620 | I mean, San Francisco, New York,

00:19:15.900 | there's something about the pandemic

00:19:17.220 | where people have become quite cynical

00:19:19.580 | about the place they are and they try to escape.

00:19:22.140 | It's interesting.

00:19:22.980 | I mean, they're asking some difficult questions

00:19:24.620 | about what they are in life.

00:19:26.060 | They're having like a self-imposed midlife crisis.

00:19:29.140 | It's good, I think, for everybody

00:19:30.820 | to go through this process,

00:19:32.300 | but I think, I hope New York reemerges--

00:19:35.580 | - It will.

00:19:36.420 | - As the flourishing place for the weirdos.

00:19:37.940 | Anyway, Tom Waits said, "New York, of course,

00:19:41.780 | "is to be in endless surreal situations

00:19:45.380 | "where a $50,000 gunmetal Mercedes

00:19:48.420 | "pulls up in a puddle of blood

00:19:50.420 | "and outsteps a 25-carat blonde with a $2 wristwatch."

00:19:54.580 | - Woo!

00:19:55.420 | - And he keeps going on.

00:19:56.820 | So like it's like--

00:19:57.660 | - That's like bars.

00:19:59.700 | He's like a rapper.

00:20:00.540 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's good.

00:20:02.660 | But basically, just the absurdity of it all.

00:20:06.260 | Lots of money, lots of weirdos,

00:20:09.620 | degenerates and dreamers and the whole mix of it.

00:20:14.140 | Do you think that's an accurate description

00:20:17.980 | of what New York is today?

00:20:19.620 | Like is there still place for the weirdos

00:20:22.220 | and just the interesting artists,

00:20:24.940 | the edgy, the comedians, the creators,

00:20:29.380 | the entrepreneurs, as opposed to like Wall Street,

00:20:35.220 | as opposed to like rich folk,

00:20:38.540 | and then like hopeless folk?

00:20:40.900 | - Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot.

00:20:42.700 | There's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists.

00:20:46.180 | New York used to be where you went to make it

00:20:48.300 | as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer,

00:20:51.100 | and there were all these dives and shitboxes

00:20:53.220 | and all these places you could go,

00:20:54.700 | and now it's more Pink Berries

00:20:57.060 | and Subway sandwiches and Chase Banks.

00:20:59.540 | So it's definitely lost a lot of its creative edge.

00:21:03.940 | It's just money.

00:21:04.780 | Money keeps coming in,

00:21:05.600 | and now you see all these comedians move to Nashville,

00:21:07.780 | Austin, Denver, whatever.

00:21:09.740 | So it doesn't have the power it used to have

00:21:13.700 | of like you gotta be here if you wanna make it.

00:21:16.040 | That's definitely gone.

00:21:17.980 | So that hurt the city a lot.

00:21:20.140 | The city is way more soulless.

00:21:22.940 | When I moved here in '07,

00:21:24.660 | I mean, not only did I get mugged three times

00:21:26.220 | in the first year,

00:21:27.540 | but it was a hub of like,

00:21:31.180 | it felt like things were happening here.

00:21:32.780 | You know, it was an energy, it was electricity,

00:21:34.940 | and we still have the electricity,

00:21:35.960 | but it's also maybe just 'cause there's Times Square,

00:21:38.180 | there's Soho, there's Wall Street.

00:21:41.180 | So we got the staples,

00:21:42.500 | but there is a little bit of that,

00:21:44.180 | it's almost like a marriage.

00:21:45.340 | Like, yeah, we're in love,

00:21:46.480 | but it's not as passionate as it once was.

00:21:49.540 | That's how I would equate New York.

00:21:51.740 | - What gives you hope?

00:21:52.660 | You're pretty hopeful about it, though.

00:21:54.700 | - I'm hopeful just 'cause I know it's magical,

00:21:57.140 | and I think it has to be.

00:21:59.540 | I mean, it's the epicenter of America.

00:22:01.100 | Like, this is where the immigrants came,

00:22:03.020 | and this is where the stock market is,

00:22:05.420 | and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here.

00:22:08.260 | So I think it's gonna happen,

00:22:12.100 | but something like the bottom has to fall out,

00:22:14.620 | and then people have to move back here and all that.

00:22:16.640 | So something, the corporations are kind of fucking us.

00:22:19.580 | They're just buying everything.

00:22:20.820 | - Well, that's true for everything.

00:22:22.020 | - That's true for everything.

00:22:22.860 | - It's true for Austin probably as well.

00:22:24.980 | People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.

00:22:27.140 | - You always hear of Hemingway and Dali,

00:22:28.860 | and all these guys went to Paris in the '20s,

00:22:32.360 | or whatever that was.

00:22:33.860 | Yeah, I get it now.

00:22:35.100 | I used to be like, "Why do these guys go to Paris?

00:22:36.740 | "Why do these artists?"

00:22:38.220 | And now I get it 'cause it's freer there.

00:22:41.180 | That's why Austin became like that Paris,

00:22:43.600 | where everybody's like, "I gotta get out of LA.

00:22:44.940 | "I'm going there."

00:22:45.980 | But we came back from that.

00:22:50.620 | The '70s were wild, and '90s were cool.

00:22:53.540 | So maybe it'll come back.

00:22:54.740 | Might just take a decade.

00:22:55.860 | - Well, that's how stories are told.

00:22:57.700 | There's always pockets of Paris within New York.

00:23:02.700 | - True, true.

00:23:03.820 | - There's just an opportunity to let your weird flourish

00:23:08.020 | is there in New York, I'm sure.

00:23:09.700 | - It's there.

00:23:13.580 | You gotta find it.

00:23:14.400 | Before it was front and center.

00:23:16.100 | - What's your favorite thing about New York?

00:23:18.220 | Like what kind of things just like--

00:23:22.060 | - I mean, how long is this pod?

00:23:23.260 | I could go on.

00:23:24.720 | It's too much to put into one hour.

00:23:27.500 | We've got other questions.

00:23:28.460 | But I love that one neighborhood

00:23:31.360 | is wildly different than the next.

00:23:33.260 | I'm in Little Italy, and then you take four steps,

00:23:35.440 | now I'm in Chinatown.

00:23:36.540 | I mean, and then the history there,

00:23:38.140 | and then the stories, and the food,

00:23:40.380 | and the culture, and all that.

00:23:42.460 | And then you go 10 feet over here,

00:23:44.180 | and now you're in Brooklyn, and this is insane.

00:23:46.140 | It's a whole other world.

00:23:47.100 | And it's almost like a little America in one city.

00:23:50.460 | And it's great.

00:23:54.100 | And just the fact that they pulled it off.

00:23:56.740 | Like Fifth Avenue goes way up,

00:23:59.420 | and you're like, "There's a billionaire's house

00:24:00.680 | "next to a hobo, and then this is a black guy

00:24:02.860 | "who's fighting with a Cuban guy,

00:24:04.500 | "and an Asian guy's trying to get in the middle of them,

00:24:07.260 | "and the cabbie's from the Middle East,

00:24:09.280 | "and there's so many beautiful women here,

00:24:11.920 | "and there's so many brilliant minds here."

00:24:13.620 | And the pace is great.

00:24:15.020 | It keeps people moving.

00:24:16.140 | I mean, it just, you can't beat it.

00:24:18.740 | And the city will fuck you in the ass, too.

00:24:20.580 | Don't get me wrong.

00:24:21.420 | You land at JFK, and you're like,

00:24:22.520 | "Oh, God, I got mugged.

00:24:23.820 | "My Uber driver called me a homo.

00:24:27.380 | "I stepped in human shit.

00:24:29.300 | "Where the fuck am I?"

00:24:31.820 | So yeah, it's bad news, but that bad news,

00:24:34.340 | it's almost like the bullying.

00:24:35.940 | It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger,

00:24:38.420 | and you build more layers, and layers, and layers.

00:24:40.580 | That's why some new guy, some hayseed from Milwaukee

00:24:43.140 | shows up, you've been here 10 years,

00:24:45.260 | and you go, "Let me help you out,

00:24:47.340 | "'cause you got addressed.

00:24:50.180 | "You're gonna get your ass kicked for like six months,

00:24:52.760 | "but I know the ropes a little,

00:24:54.060 | "and I think you need a little of that.

00:24:55.880 | "If the treadmill's not on, you're not gonna run.

00:24:59.980 | "New York, the treadmill's on."

00:25:01.340 | So it just makes you run, and it makes you better.

00:25:03.980 | And look, it wears on you.

00:25:04.820 | You probably lose 10 years of your life

00:25:06.260 | living in New York versus Indianapolis,

00:25:09.740 | but it's a better life.

00:25:12.580 | Have you seen "25th Hour" with Ed Norton?

00:25:13.940 | Yeah, it's been a while.

00:25:16.420 | Spike Lee joint?

00:25:17.460 | Yeah, Spike Lee joint.

00:25:18.740 | I mean, Ed Norton, there's a whole monologue there

00:25:23.340 | about New York. Oh, that's right.

00:25:25.140 | But they're talking about just, he has a mix.

00:25:29.900 | There's melancholy music, I think,

00:25:31.940 | or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing,

00:25:34.100 | but there's an anger and a disgust with the city.

00:25:36.940 | Yeah. But through the anger

00:25:38.060 | and the disgust comes out a love for the city.

00:25:40.900 | Same with, was "Taxi Driver" in New York?

00:25:43.020 | Oh, yeah, it's Gordon Raisey.

00:25:45.260 | Yeah, so there's something about, what is that?

00:25:48.620 | What is that grit of the city that pushes you down?

00:25:53.620 | Well, that's the beauty of the city

00:25:57.260 | is it's this tribal human nature,

00:25:59.780 | like the sex shops and fistfights and racism

00:26:04.180 | and all this tension,

00:26:05.500 | but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance

00:26:08.660 | and sophistication on Fifth Avenue.

00:26:10.540 | So you get that juxtaposish.

00:26:13.820 | It's kind of like in Boston.

00:26:14.700 | You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard,

00:26:16.900 | they got all this shit.

00:26:18.300 | And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags,

00:26:21.820 | the Irish guys, the immigrants,

00:26:23.860 | and you get that mix of insanely smart

00:26:26.780 | with wicked piss and these two worlds.

00:26:30.180 | And that's a good thing.

00:26:31.420 | It's like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady,

00:26:33.780 | that's a good looking kid.

00:26:35.420 | You get a mix.

00:26:36.860 | We're mixing two totally different things

00:26:39.460 | that are coming together and it makes it,

00:26:40.780 | it's like peanut butter and chocolate.

00:26:43.140 | Peanut butter and chocolate, I've never tried that.

00:26:45.540 | What?

00:26:46.780 | Maybe I have.

00:26:47.620 | What are you talking about?

00:26:48.460 | I'm talking about Reese's, man.

00:26:49.280 | Like Reese's, yeah.

00:26:50.120 | Oh, it's the best candy.

00:26:52.180 | Yeah.

00:26:53.020 | Without the fakeness of LA,

00:26:55.660 | without the kind of, with the facade.

00:27:00.460 | Yeah, LA's tough.

00:27:01.780 | What's the difference between LA comedy

00:27:05.740 | and New York comedy to you?

00:27:07.140 | I think one place you kind of go to make it

00:27:10.580 | and be discovered and be loved,

00:27:13.460 | and one place you go, you can get all that in New York too,

00:27:16.180 | but I think in New York it's more of a school,

00:27:19.060 | a boot camp of comedy.

00:27:21.060 | Let's make great comedy.

00:27:22.740 | Let's make original comedy.

00:27:23.980 | Let's watch the other guys and gals

00:27:26.300 | who are at the show, at the clubs,

00:27:27.860 | and learn from them and try to hang out with them

00:27:31.740 | and absorb some of them.

00:27:33.220 | And in LA, it's like, when am I on?

00:27:36.100 | I'm next, get out of my way.

00:27:38.120 | I'm the star here.

00:27:39.940 | I'm a bigger star than you.

00:27:41.340 | Oh, this guy's actually a big star.

00:27:42.660 | I gotta outwork, you know, it's a lot of that

00:27:44.700 | instead of like, damn, that was funny.

00:27:46.500 | I gotta be that funny.

00:27:47.900 | Damn, I wish I had a joke.

00:27:49.020 | And look, I don't wanna speak for LA Comics

00:27:51.020 | 'cause there's Bill Burr, Anthony Jelzilek,

00:27:53.940 | these brilliant LA Comics,

00:27:55.300 | but they all cut their teeth in New York, just saying.

00:27:58.540 | Then they moved to LA.

00:28:00.220 | That's a good point.

00:28:01.060 | You know, Ali Wong, all these people, killer comics,

00:28:03.380 | but New York, started in New York, moved to New York.

00:28:07.260 | There is something about comics that stay in New York

00:28:09.340 | for a long time, though, like Dave Vitello.

00:28:11.100 | Ah, you know about Dave?

00:28:12.620 | Yeah, yeah, he wants to do this podcast.

00:28:14.380 | He does?

00:28:15.220 | Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Dave Vitello.

00:28:16.300 | Wow, yeah, he's a king.

00:28:17.140 | But it's like, it's almost like he doesn't want to make it.

00:28:20.940 | I don't know.

00:28:21.780 | I mean, you probably know him,

00:28:22.860 | but it feels like you just,

00:28:25.300 | maybe it's romanticizing it,

00:28:27.900 | but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy,

00:28:31.020 | of becoming funnier, crafting the jokes,

00:28:34.060 | becoming funnier than the other comics,

00:28:35.700 | like competing with each other kind of thing,

00:28:37.580 | not over money or fame or any of that,

00:28:40.900 | just purely the comedy of it.

00:28:43.180 | Totally, that's Dave.

00:28:44.260 | That's him in a nutshell.

00:28:45.100 | He's like that guy in the movies in the '80s,

00:28:46.780 | action movies where they're like,

00:28:48.100 | they go up to a creek in Montana,

00:28:50.620 | and some guy's living in a cabin,

00:28:51.820 | and he's sharpening a stick,

00:28:53.100 | and they go, "The Russians are coming, they're invading.

00:28:56.100 | "We need you, you're the best commando."

00:28:57.860 | And he's like, "I gave that up, man.

00:28:59.500 | "I'm done with that lifestyle."

00:29:00.820 | They're like, "But you're the best, we need you."

00:29:02.620 | And he has to suit up eventually.

00:29:04.780 | He looks at a picture of his dead wife,

00:29:06.180 | and he goes, "Fuck it, I'm going."

00:29:07.460 | And then they fight the Rooskies.

00:29:09.460 | But he's that guy.

00:29:11.220 | He just is gifted.

00:29:12.740 | He's got a gift from Allah, and he's the best.

00:29:16.820 | Yeah, a lot of comics give him props.

00:29:18.660 | It's always surprising to me.

00:29:20.140 | 'Cause it's surprising to me

00:29:21.660 | because he hasn't really made it big.

00:29:25.660 | He did.

00:29:26.500 | In the '90s, he was huge.

00:29:27.380 | He had his own TV show.

00:29:28.580 | He was the boy.

00:29:29.420 | Yeah, yeah, that show was awesome.

00:29:30.940 | But I mean, as big as I think he deserves to be.

00:29:34.260 | Well, that's art.

00:29:35.100 | The mainstream shit is always the worst.

00:29:37.900 | It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall.

00:29:40.500 | I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good.

00:29:43.900 | And certain comics we could name are good,

00:29:46.140 | but the delicacy is gonna be less talked about

00:29:51.140 | and less household namey than the mainstream hacky shit.

00:29:56.940 | Yeah, it's funny 'cause he hasn't,

00:29:59.700 | I think he was on Joe Rogan's show once, maybe.

00:30:04.060 | Yeah, once or twice.

00:30:05.140 | And he was with somebody else.

00:30:07.700 | Jeff Ross?

00:30:08.540 | Yeah, he met him with Jeff Ross.

00:30:10.340 | Oh yeah, 'cause they did that two mics thing, whatever.

00:30:12.500 | Oh, with mics, yeah.

00:30:13.340 | Yeah.

00:30:15.380 | But he's the quickest guy.

00:30:16.660 | There's no one funnier.

00:30:17.780 | Yeah, yeah, him and you, you're super quick.

00:30:22.260 | Your recent appearance on Rogan was hilarious.

00:30:24.660 | Oh, thanks.

00:30:25.500 | Just so fast.

00:30:27.020 | You're on with Ari and-

00:30:29.500 | Shane Gillis.

00:30:30.340 | Shane Gillis.

00:30:31.180 | Yeah, that was fun.

00:30:32.020 | We're going back in January.

00:30:33.500 | Yeah, nice.

00:30:34.340 | This is never come out.

00:30:36.740 | Neither will you.

00:30:38.860 | We're having fun.

00:30:41.340 | Yep.

00:30:42.180 | All right, so what does it feel like,

00:30:45.340 | to bomb in standup comedy, like to fail?

00:30:49.020 | Maybe the psychology of it first,

00:30:50.900 | like just take me through it.

00:30:53.220 | 'Cause we're talking about being outnumbered in a fight,

00:30:57.100 | just being beat up.

00:30:58.060 | Very similar.

00:30:58.900 | By the way, this is like a no eye contact off.

00:31:02.620 | Yeah.

00:31:03.460 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:04.300 | I like catching clips.

00:31:05.140 | We're both uncomfortable with it.

00:31:05.980 | Yeah, it's great, it's kind of nice to be with my people.

00:31:08.620 | But yeah, it's fun.

00:31:10.420 | Do you need to shoot a paper to look at or?

00:31:12.300 | Yeah, I'm going, I got a good sweet spot right there.

00:31:15.300 | Nice.

00:31:16.140 | Yeah, it's a nightmare, but it's part of it.

00:31:18.860 | It's the validation too is the worst part.

00:31:24.300 | 'Cause whenever you do comedy and kill,

00:31:27.220 | you can be a great comic,

00:31:28.220 | but even David Tell, these brilliant guys,

00:31:29.980 | they feel like they're getting,

00:31:30.820 | you feel like you're getting away with something.

00:31:32.220 | I don't have a day job, I'm telling jokes for a living.

00:31:34.340 | I'm talking about my dick up here

00:31:35.580 | and they're fucking loving me

00:31:36.620 | and they call me a genius and all this.

00:31:38.500 | I'm talking about my sack.

00:31:39.700 | Yeah.

00:31:40.620 | And it's great, it makes people happy and it's funny,

00:31:43.340 | but that bombing, when you bomb,

00:31:46.780 | your first thought is like, yeah, you're right.

00:31:48.820 | At first you're like, fuck you guys.

00:31:50.820 | What, you don't like this shit?

00:31:51.780 | And then you just start going in.

00:31:53.020 | You're like, yeah, maybe it isn't that good.

00:31:54.940 | Maybe they're right.

00:31:55.780 | I do suck.

00:31:56.700 | I knew I sucked.

00:31:57.860 | I should become a mailman.

00:31:59.300 | And it stinks and you feel alone.

00:32:03.580 | And you feel like you wasted their time.

00:32:06.180 | And then you're like, what was I thinking?

00:32:07.460 | I could be a comedian.

00:32:08.380 | What the fuck, who am I?

00:32:09.900 | Eddie Murphy, what am I doing here?

00:32:11.740 | So it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts.

00:32:16.340 | But I also love that it hurts so bad.

00:32:18.580 | Bombing fucking hurts because now everybody doesn't do it.

00:32:23.260 | I think a lot more people could do comedy probably

00:32:25.220 | and figure it out.

00:32:26.460 | But the bombing is so brutal that it keeps,

00:32:29.460 | one time I went to Minneapolis.

00:32:31.460 | I was like, this is a great city.

00:32:32.580 | I mean, the sun is shining.

00:32:33.820 | Why isn't this city like packed?

00:32:35.460 | And they're like, 'cause the winters are so bad

00:32:36.900 | and we love it 'cause it keeps everybody out.

00:32:38.700 | And I feel the same about comedy.

00:32:39.820 | The bombs are so brutal.

00:32:41.820 | I've had bombs where I'm in bed.

00:32:43.340 | I'm just staring at the ceiling like,

00:32:44.700 | what the fuck was that?

00:32:45.780 | Like you have PTSD.

00:32:47.420 | I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people.

00:32:49.940 | I did 30 minutes to silence.

00:32:52.700 | - So it's not just like one joke fails.

00:32:54.820 | It's like they start piling on like it's irrecoverable.

00:32:58.620 | - Yes, and one joke failing is very common.

00:33:00.980 | Like a lot of audience don't even notice that bomb.

00:33:03.860 | 'Cause you got so many jokes in a row.

00:33:05.540 | You can sandwich a good one, then a bad one,

00:33:07.140 | then a good one.

00:33:08.140 | But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose,

00:33:10.460 | we don't like you.

00:33:12.140 | Nothing you say will redeem yourself.

00:33:14.500 | And it's hard to get out of.

00:33:16.780 | It's like being pulled down by your hair.

00:33:18.300 | You can't get back.

00:33:19.420 | I can't win this fight no matter what.

00:33:21.940 | - Can you like get him back by acknowledging

00:33:24.620 | like the elephant in the room?

00:33:25.940 | - That helps.

00:33:27.100 | That helps, but they're still gonna go,

00:33:28.540 | that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.

00:33:31.340 | - He still sucks.

00:33:32.180 | - He still sucks.

00:33:33.380 | That's the worst part.

00:33:34.340 | You're going, no, this is good.

00:33:36.100 | You guys just don't like me.

00:33:37.220 | Just 'cause you don't like me doesn't mean I'm bad.

00:33:39.540 | - Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot.

00:33:41.740 | Just listening, because first of all,

00:33:45.540 | I think the audience in the open mic,

00:33:47.180 | at least the ones I've been to,

00:33:49.460 | is most, I guess, other comedians.

00:33:51.900 | Or like at least people who don't seem

00:33:53.540 | to wanna laugh at anything.

00:33:55.300 | And so I just love it 'cause it's human nature

00:33:58.660 | and perseverance at its best.

00:34:00.540 | But here's comedians, like clearly,

00:34:03.660 | this is mostly in Austin, they have a dream.

00:34:06.140 | Like, why would you get up there?

00:34:07.820 | - Right.

00:34:08.660 | Maybe some weird New Year's resolution bullshit,

00:34:13.900 | but for the most part, it's people who wanna be comedians.

00:34:16.300 | - Like a lot of the open micers are people

00:34:18.580 | who clearly have done this for quite a long time already.

00:34:21.180 | Like at least a year or two, maybe five years.

00:34:24.500 | And they're often not very funny.

00:34:28.060 | And just bombing in front of an audience

00:34:35.460 | of like 20, where they're just sitting there,

00:34:38.460 | almost like mocking them with their eyes.

00:34:42.460 | Or maybe, and I don't know, and they still push through.

00:34:45.980 | They still, as if they're doing an arena

00:34:49.380 | and everybody's laughing.

00:34:51.020 | - Yes.

00:34:52.020 | - They still got that energy trying,

00:34:54.260 | almost like to an audience that doesn't exist.

00:34:58.180 | Like an audience of their dreams.

00:35:00.000 | 'Cause I guess you have to do that

00:35:01.900 | to keep the energy of the act going.

00:35:03.740 | And it's just so beautiful to watch them try it.

00:35:07.040 | And also what happens, open mic, I don't know,

00:35:11.700 | five minutes, whatever they do,

00:35:13.860 | they walk off and walk back off stage.

00:35:18.860 | And like, you can't, who do they look at?

00:35:21.860 | Like, what do you look,

00:35:23.060 | do you make eye contact with people?

00:35:24.860 | Do you?

00:35:25.700 | - You look at your phone, you look at your feet,

00:35:27.340 | you just zone out.

00:35:28.660 | You kinda, woo, you kinda go white.

00:35:32.380 | You just hear a white noise and go out.

00:35:34.460 | It's tough.

00:35:35.500 | But you gotta, you need a little delusion

00:35:39.420 | to be a comedian.

00:35:40.400 | To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion.

00:35:42.340 | Like, you think you can do this?

00:35:44.100 | You know, you got 10 years ahead of you of hell

00:35:46.980 | and you're up for this?

00:35:48.660 | And you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd

00:35:50.980 | and we see our friend bomb and we go,

00:35:53.300 | yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him.

00:35:55.060 | I'll get him.

00:35:56.460 | And then you don't get him.

00:35:58.940 | But that's human nature too, is like,

00:36:02.540 | I, they don't like him, but they'll like me.

00:36:04.420 | And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian.

00:36:07.180 | But you don't want too much delusion

00:36:08.340 | 'cause then you're a psycho.

00:36:09.620 | But you need a little.

00:36:11.980 | - Well, a psycho could be good for a comedy.

00:36:13.980 | - That's true too, a lot of psychos.

00:36:15.740 | - I mentioned to you offline that I talked to Elon

00:36:18.740 | and we talked about doing standup.

00:36:20.500 | He's thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup.

00:36:22.900 | - I was gonna say, if you need a coach, Elon, I gotcha.

00:36:27.260 | - Well, maybe you should move to Austin

00:36:28.620 | to coach him full-time.

00:36:30.060 | - Ah, hopefully he can fly me in.

00:36:32.100 | - So what advice would you give to somebody

00:36:36.180 | who wants to try to do five minutes?

00:36:39.180 | Like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic

00:36:44.180 | and say something funny?

00:36:46.460 | - Well, that's the irony of comedy is,

00:36:48.420 | I don't know if it's irony, but it's like,

00:36:50.180 | the beginning is the hardest part.

00:36:51.700 | Usually the beginning is the easy part.

00:36:53.340 | Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario.

00:36:55.260 | I start, I jump over one Koopa Troopa, whatever.

00:36:57.780 | And then the end is like, Jesus Christ,

00:36:59.580 | I got 30 guys coming at me.

00:37:01.140 | Comedy is the opposite.

00:37:02.100 | The beginning is like, it's a gauntlet.

00:37:04.940 | It's just obstacles.

00:37:06.140 | And it's like you said, open mics.

00:37:07.900 | I watch these famous comedians on Netflix and you go,

00:37:10.700 | this would all bomb on an open mic.

00:37:12.060 | They're killing in Radio City.

00:37:14.180 | This would bomb on an open mic.

00:37:15.300 | That's the weird part.

00:37:16.260 | So it's almost like you have to go through hell

00:37:17.980 | just to get to the promised land.

00:37:21.300 | And I would say, rehearse the shit out of it

00:37:25.260 | because you're gonna get frazzled up there.

00:37:26.820 | Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material.

00:37:28.540 | But you also forget about the other part of delivering it,

00:37:31.260 | having confidence, being likable, having timing,

00:37:34.820 | having a cadence, figuring out who you are,

00:37:37.100 | figuring out what the audience thinks you are

00:37:39.300 | or how they perceive you.

00:37:40.820 | 'Cause you can go up there and say all this,

00:37:42.160 | but they go, well, that's the guy, he's clearly gay.

00:37:44.380 | Why is he acting like he's not gay?

00:37:45.860 | You know, that's all, now they're not listening to the joke.

00:37:47.820 | So like, you gotta know how you look.

00:37:50.380 | And it's just repetition, repetition.

00:37:53.180 | And bombing is not failure.

00:37:54.980 | That's what you gotta remember.

00:37:56.140 | I mean, look, if you do a killer hour

00:37:58.620 | and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.

00:38:01.180 | But bombing is not failure, it's just data.

00:38:04.840 | It's going, oh, okay, I gotta retool that.

00:38:07.700 | That didn't work, something's wrong there.

00:38:09.820 | I missed a word there.

00:38:11.180 | So you gotta treat the act almost like ingredients

00:38:17.260 | in a cooking, in a dish, you know, like,

00:38:20.540 | oh, I put too many eggs in, take an egg out.

00:38:22.900 | You gotta treat it like that.

00:38:24.340 | And look, when you pull a bad cake out of an oven,

00:38:26.540 | you go, I fucked up.

00:38:27.860 | But it doesn't hurt your feelings.

00:38:29.540 | But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings.

00:38:32.420 | So you gotta factor that in too.

00:38:33.640 | Your feelings are gonna be hurt.

00:38:35.060 | And just almost be a robot

00:38:36.900 | and just keep going towards that open mic.

00:38:39.260 | You know how scary an open mic is?

00:38:40.860 | Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians

00:38:43.540 | is way worse, 'cause they know what just happened.

00:38:47.140 | And they could have saved you, and they didn't.

00:38:49.460 | So it's way worse.

00:38:51.220 | - And they're gonna be your quote-unquote friends

00:38:53.980 | for this journey.

00:38:56.180 | - Yeah, no, these are evil people, mostly.

00:38:59.060 | Twisted, fucked up people.

00:39:02.860 | - Can you tell, like, in those early days,

00:39:05.260 | let's just talk about that, like, the open mic level,

00:39:08.100 | that a joke is gonna be good on paper?

00:39:11.220 | Like, I'll give you my experience,

00:39:12.700 | 'cause maybe you could be my coach

00:39:16.580 | in this particular moment. - Please.

00:39:18.180 | - So-- - You're like Larry Nassar.

00:39:20.020 | (laughing)

00:39:22.540 | That's fun, huh?

00:39:24.380 | Joking, everybody, I hope nobody takes it seriously.

00:39:26.980 | - I now have an amazing team of folks

00:39:30.980 | who help me with editing,

00:39:31.980 | and they're now currently sweating

00:39:33.460 | as they watch this. - Ah, you gotta leave

00:39:34.860 | that one in, that was quick.

00:39:35.940 | - Yeah, that was pretty good. - I'll eat that one.

00:39:37.700 | - That was good.

00:39:38.540 | (laughing)

00:39:40.300 | All right, so going in front of an audience,

00:39:45.140 | just even to give a lecture terrifies me,

00:39:47.440 | which I've done, but open mic, I mean, that to me,

00:39:53.300 | perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening,

00:39:55.620 | is 'cause I just, it terrifies me so much,

00:39:58.980 | that idea of going up there and bombing.

00:40:02.660 | I mean, it's scary, and to do even, like, one minute,

00:40:06.140 | to be honest, is scary, and five minutes.

00:40:08.580 | I'm also, watched enough open mics

00:40:11.220 | to realize that five minutes is a long time.

00:40:13.100 | I mean, it depends on your comedy,

00:40:15.340 | but if you're doing fast stuff,

00:40:18.860 | five minutes is a really long time.

00:40:20.540 | - Oh, it's eternity.

00:40:22.460 | - I guess with a long story, two is a long time,

00:40:26.340 | because if the story's not,

00:40:27.860 | you're building up to something,

00:40:29.060 | if the story's gonna fail,

00:40:31.020 | you just spent all that time telling the story

00:40:33.460 | that completely went flat.

00:40:35.500 | - Completely. - You got nothing.

00:40:36.620 | I guess if you have a series of jokes,

00:40:38.180 | you can at least try to recover,

00:40:39.740 | and do the Mitch Hedberg thing,

00:40:41.380 | where like, all right, I'll cross that off.

00:40:43.060 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:40:44.020 | - Well, I'm able to, like, I've tried to write a few things,

00:40:48.820 | and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.

00:40:51.740 | - Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, well, that's better than most.

00:40:54.420 | Most people's egos kick in, and go, no, this is good.

00:40:56.860 | - No, see, I'm able to introspect that.

00:40:59.220 | Like, it seems funny.

00:41:00.660 | I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original.

00:41:03.500 | Like, there's easy stuff that you think is funny,

00:41:08.380 | but to me, originality is the thing

00:41:10.900 | you should be looking for.

00:41:11.980 | - I agree. - Because then,

00:41:14.380 | that's what actually becomes funny.

00:41:17.220 | Like, or rather, if it's original, even if it bombs,

00:41:22.220 | that feels like more a beautiful art creation that you did.

00:41:27.860 | Like, at least you swung for it.

00:41:29.740 | Like, you did something unique.

00:41:30.980 | 'Cause like, even with open mic, your first five minutes,

00:41:33.900 | there's so many, just go to enough open mics,

00:41:36.420 | you'll hear like all the, there's like a list of jokes

00:41:39.460 | that you can just go to.

00:41:40.620 | First of all, you can make fun of the fact

00:41:42.280 | that you're at an open mic,

00:41:44.060 | that you're like doing this for the first time, and so on.

00:41:46.900 | You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun

00:41:49.140 | of your appearance in some way, and so on.

00:41:51.620 | But like, yeah, you could do that, you know,

00:41:54.700 | that takes actually, that's way harder than people realize

00:41:57.580 | to do it in an original way.

00:41:59.460 | - Yes. - To present who you are

00:42:02.260 | as a person very quickly, enough to then put that person

00:42:07.260 | down in front of everybody else.

00:42:09.620 | So you have to reveal the--

00:42:11.540 | - The audience is like that, 'cause they go,

00:42:12.700 | he knows what we're thinking.

00:42:13.860 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:42:15.680 | But do it again in an original way.

00:42:17.340 | And so like, when I'm trying to write stuff,

00:42:19.620 | not that I've tried long, it's like 30 minutes.

00:42:23.820 | But as enough to see like, oh shit,

00:42:27.460 | to write something original is really difficult.

00:42:29.980 | - It is, but do you got a bit, anything?

00:42:32.340 | - No, I don't want to do--

00:42:33.180 | - You didn't write any one line or anything?

00:42:34.620 | - For this, no.

00:42:35.540 | - Well, just in general, ever in your life,

00:42:37.380 | ever written a joke?

00:42:38.220 | - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:39.340 | - Oh, okay.

00:42:40.180 | - No, but I don't have anything in my mind popped up.

00:42:42.300 | So the jokes that I've written have more,

00:42:47.300 | like for some reason, my mind goes to like dark places.

00:42:50.900 | So, you know, like, and not actually dark

00:42:55.660 | in the Mark Norman dark, because you go really dark

00:43:00.020 | to where it's like almost absurd.

00:43:02.180 | My natural inclination is to go to like

00:43:05.940 | a dark historical place, like Hitler and Stalin.

00:43:10.940 | And almost, so go to that place

00:43:15.900 | and then talk about something absurd there.

00:43:21.320 | So like, don't go like all the way, I don't know,

00:43:26.320 | I don't want to give examples because it'll be clipped.

00:43:29.920 | But the Mark Norman style, look it up,

00:43:33.360 | he has a special on his YouTube.

00:43:34.960 | That kind, I want to almost explore the dark aspects

00:43:39.360 | of human nature more kind of connected

00:43:42.740 | to actual historical figures.

00:43:44.260 | That's the inclination.

00:43:47.240 | Like, I don't know, Nature's Metal,

00:43:48.940 | the Instagram channel that explores

00:43:51.480 | like the darkness of nature, like something there.

00:43:55.400 | - See, that's good that you already know

00:43:57.140 | that you've kind of gotten to the core

00:43:59.160 | of your comedy already.

00:44:00.400 | And that's interesting.

00:44:01.960 | That's a step ahead.

00:44:03.480 | - Yeah, I can hear, with most things that I do in life,

00:44:05.860 | I can like hear the music from a distance,

00:44:08.160 | like in myself, like, okay, if you have anything,

00:44:12.040 | this is the direction it'll be

00:44:13.920 | without actually knowing exactly all the steps.

00:44:16.240 | And that's a nice motivation to be like,

00:44:17.840 | all right, well, if you do this for a long time,

00:44:19.840 | maybe you'll have a chance to get there.

00:44:21.680 | - Right.

00:44:22.520 | - But you have to, that's where it's a feature

00:44:25.220 | to be super self-critical, I think.

00:44:27.200 | - Yes.

00:44:28.020 | - But then that's why it's fucking terrifying

00:44:30.240 | to walk up to a stage, stand there,

00:44:33.160 | and probably forget everything.

00:44:34.680 | - Yeah, that's the other part nobody thinks about.

00:44:36.480 | Just goes right out of your head.

00:44:37.900 | You go fight or flight, it's ugly.

00:44:39.800 | My first years were horrific bombing,

00:44:42.400 | horrific stammering, horrific not remembering the punchline.

00:44:45.480 | Like, maybe you got a little setup going

00:44:48.040 | and they're kind of on board and you're like,

00:44:49.280 | ah, how's that, camera, out goes.

00:44:52.000 | And you just hate yourself.

00:44:53.720 | It's a nightmare.

00:44:55.500 | But you've already kind of,

00:44:57.020 | maybe if you haven't done standup or whatever,

00:44:58.600 | but you kind of know your voice.

00:44:59.920 | And that's pretty advanced.

00:45:02.760 | - So you're not trying to be somebody else.

00:45:04.320 | I guess, yeah, just for having done like podcasts

00:45:07.600 | and lecture and so on.

00:45:09.160 | - That helps.

00:45:10.000 | - I've already done some of the work of the standups do,

00:45:13.620 | which is embarrass yourself in front of others

00:45:15.880 | for prolonged periods of time.

00:45:17.440 | - Yes.

00:45:18.280 | - Yeah, so I'd done that

00:45:20.520 | without actually developing the funny.

00:45:22.440 | - Right, right, right.

00:45:23.560 | - But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop.

00:45:27.840 | No, it's super difficult, of course,

00:45:30.160 | but I mean, maybe the essential work of a standup comedian

00:45:33.000 | is just the embarrassment of like finding who you are.

00:45:36.080 | - Yeah, that's a part of it for sure.

00:45:37.720 | You know, in the beginning you're like, water bottle.

00:45:39.840 | What's funny about water bottle?

00:45:41.120 | Hmm, I'm a funny guy, I can make this funny,

00:45:42.520 | but that's not it, you know?

00:45:44.380 | It's your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff.

00:45:47.060 | For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark,

00:45:50.140 | but in a weird way where, you know,

00:45:52.260 | people will say like, hey, don't objectify women.

00:45:54.620 | But then they go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful.

00:45:57.500 | And you're like, well, wait, I know something's off here.

00:46:00.860 | Why can you objectify her, but not the supermodel?

00:46:05.540 | So what's going on there?

00:46:06.720 | And I like to play with that.

00:46:08.520 | So I have this joke where I say Caitlyn Jenner,

00:46:12.640 | oh, women go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful, beautiful woman.

00:46:15.200 | I go, well, you look like her.

00:46:16.240 | And they go, fuck you.

00:46:17.880 | And you're like, there's a lot of truth there.

00:46:20.160 | But I like exploring that kind of,

00:46:23.020 | oh, you're trying to get one over on me,

00:46:24.600 | or you're lying to yourself, or what are we doing here?

00:46:27.160 | And I like that kind of comedy.

00:46:28.980 | I don't see color.

00:46:31.080 | Well, I'm black.

00:46:31.900 | No, you're not, ah.

00:46:33.280 | You know, that's fun 'cause you're lying.

00:46:37.800 | Yeah, okay, so like big time comedians,

00:46:41.380 | such as yourself, don't like to think of yourself

00:46:43.540 | in this way.

00:46:44.380 | - I don't know.

00:46:45.200 | Here we go.

00:46:46.040 | - Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy.

00:46:50.700 | - Yeah, definitely.

00:46:51.700 | - It seems like comedians--

00:46:55.300 | - Don't say important.

00:46:56.140 | Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.

00:46:58.060 | - Yeah.

00:46:58.900 | So I was going there, I was trying to find,

00:47:00.180 | as I was trying to say these words,

00:47:01.980 | I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is.

00:47:06.420 | So I'm going to just, but there is something--

00:47:09.640 | - I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting.

00:47:10.960 | I'm like, who cares about comedy?

00:47:12.240 | There's like six comics on the planet.

00:47:13.880 | - Yeah, nobody cares.

00:47:15.000 | - Okay.

00:47:16.220 | I trust you in the pilot seat.

00:47:17.920 | You know what you're doing.

00:47:18.760 | You got listeners.

00:47:20.840 | - They've tuned out long ago.

00:47:22.280 | - Oh, we gotta get Dan Carlin on here, huh?

00:47:24.680 | Is he around?

00:47:25.640 | - Yeah, we're just going back and forth on Twitter just now.

00:47:28.520 | He's a huge fan.

00:47:29.520 | He was on here before, he'll be back.

00:47:31.760 | I've been actually really trying

00:47:34.840 | to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin

00:47:37.800 | for like a Russian episode where I could speak Russian.

00:47:41.760 | There's certain documents,

00:47:44.160 | I talked with Jaco about this too,

00:47:45.760 | certain things, I mean, I just love the challenge

00:47:49.820 | of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian

00:47:52.800 | and then can translate and can try to capture

00:47:55.760 | the depth of the writing in the Russian language

00:48:00.760 | and communicate to an American audience.

00:48:03.600 | So much is lost in translation.

00:48:05.040 | Like there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language.

00:48:09.240 | It's just connected to the culture.

00:48:10.840 | Every language, not every language,

00:48:13.040 | but many languages are uniquely able

00:48:17.400 | to capture the culture of the people.

00:48:19.560 | I mean, in some way they're the representation

00:48:21.440 | of the culture of the people.

00:48:23.120 | And so Russian is definitely that.

00:48:24.760 | It like represents the full history and culture

00:48:26.920 | of the 20th century with all the atrocities,

00:48:28.840 | all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.

00:48:32.120 | - Norm says Russian literature is,

00:48:35.280 | it's the most tapped into human existence

00:48:37.360 | than anything else.

00:48:38.280 | - Norm. - McDonald.

00:48:40.760 | - Yeah. - Big Russian literature guy.

00:48:43.100 | Dostoevsky, all that shit.

00:48:44.600 | - It's funny that there is a gap with comedians too.

00:48:48.240 | There's a culture of Russian comedy,

00:48:50.240 | like standup comedians that are told--

00:48:52.200 | - Is that right? - Yeah, yeah.

00:48:53.880 | - I don't know these Russians.

00:48:55.520 | - I mean, I don't know today.

00:48:57.320 | I mean more from the '80s and '90s.

00:48:59.840 | And there was a-- - Yakov.

00:49:02.720 | That's all I know.

00:49:03.960 | - That's not, so there's like, of course, that's--

00:49:07.000 | - I've never seen you that offended.

00:49:08.640 | - No, no, no, it's not offended.

00:49:10.000 | There's a different,

00:49:11.060 | there's like the kinesins and the, there's the edgy--

00:49:18.520 | - Is that Russian?

00:49:19.520 | - What do you mean?

00:49:21.280 | - Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.

00:49:23.160 | - Yeah, Russian, I mean, I'm comparing--

00:49:24.800 | - Or style.

00:49:25.640 | - I'm giving you like a style of darkness,

00:49:29.080 | like that's the kind of people

00:49:30.640 | that kind of challenge,

00:49:32.320 | they give, again, this is to how important comedians are,

00:49:37.880 | is they give a voice to people where in the Soviet Union

00:49:42.280 | you really can't like express your opposition

00:49:46.480 | to the government.

00:49:47.560 | And so comedians are exceptionally important there

00:49:52.160 | for just, I don't know, channeling the anger,

00:49:55.200 | even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition

00:49:57.280 | to the government.

00:49:58.120 | Just channeling the anger, the frustration

00:50:01.600 | with the absurdity of life.

00:50:02.960 | Like, you know, when there's a shortage of food,

00:50:05.800 | shortage of jobs, the absurdity of the bureaucracy,

00:50:10.440 | like the top-heavy government,

00:50:13.520 | just all of that can only sometimes be expressed

00:50:17.840 | with like dark, absurd humor.

00:50:20.520 | And that actually, why there's a culture

00:50:22.880 | of that kind of humor, you know,

00:50:24.720 | you gather around the table with vodka

00:50:27.520 | and all you can do is just talk shit and just-

00:50:31.920 | - Be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust.

00:50:35.080 | I mean, I make school shooting jokes

00:50:36.880 | and people go, "How do you do that?"

00:50:37.880 | I'm like, "Well, maybe that's how I deal with it."

00:50:39.880 | - Yeah.

00:50:40.720 | - You know, like how come I gotta empathize the way you do?

00:50:45.560 | Maybe we're different.

00:50:46.660 | - All right, so now let's skip the whole open mic thing

00:50:50.840 | and crafting jokes.

00:50:53.760 | - Oh, yeah, that's tough.

00:50:55.400 | - Kerouac said, "One day I will find the right words

00:50:59.360 | "and they will be simple."

00:51:00.920 | When do you know the joke is done, it's perfect?

00:51:05.000 | You're somebody that does like really sharp,

00:51:08.560 | like fast jokes well.

00:51:12.200 | - Oh, thanks.

00:51:13.280 | - So like there's somebody, I don't know,

00:51:15.760 | I don't know who you see yourself in the same school as.

00:51:18.680 | Like, you're darker and faster than Hedberg, I think,

00:51:24.040 | in terms of like, just, I don't know,

00:51:26.800 | the turns you take are very--

00:51:29.200 | - Thanks, I appreciate it.

00:51:30.440 | I think I got some Norm MacDonald and maybe--

00:51:32.560 | - That's right, Norm, yeah.

00:51:34.160 | - Obviously Norm, but Chris Rock was huge for me.

00:51:36.960 | Chris Rock, old, like '90s Chris Rock was like,

00:51:40.440 | I didn't know you could do jokes like that.

00:51:41.840 | I always loved George Carlin and Groucho Marx

00:51:44.040 | and Bill Murray.

00:51:45.160 | There's so many different types of comedy,

00:51:47.280 | but when I saw the bigger and blacker "Bring the Pain,"

00:51:50.440 | I was like, "Oh my God, this is like, it hit me."

00:51:54.020 | So that was big.

00:51:54.860 | And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet.

00:51:57.200 | So him being the smartest guy in the room

00:51:59.440 | but acting dumb was great.

00:52:01.400 | So yeah, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the bullshit,

00:52:06.400 | which I mentioned earlier, I like that cutting

00:52:09.280 | through the bullshit kind of style of comedy.

00:52:11.720 | Because you kind of go, "Oh, I'm not crazy."

00:52:13.820 | That's what I thought too.

00:52:15.080 | I was too scared to say it, but I thought that.

00:52:16.800 | And he's saying it in a room where people are laughing,

00:52:19.520 | maybe I'm not an idiot.

00:52:21.320 | So that helped me.

00:52:22.920 | - So it's observational, but not Jerry Seinfeld.

00:52:27.320 | Observational, it's like going to the darker thing

00:52:30.520 | to like within society.

00:52:32.480 | - But I like him too, but seeing it,

00:52:35.040 | doing it about stuff like in your life, society.

00:52:38.920 | - Yeah, race, gender, government, politics,

00:52:42.720 | all that kind of stuff.

00:52:43.560 | - Exactly, exactly.

00:52:44.440 | Sex, human emotions, jealousy, whatever it is.

00:52:47.480 | That's the good stuff.

00:52:48.840 | - How'd you feel when Norm passed away?

00:52:52.320 | - Ah, that was a bummer because he was, what, 61?

00:52:57.160 | And I just didn't see it coming.

00:53:00.560 | And I just, I've watched so many hours of his stuff

00:53:04.240 | and I've met him and he was like this comedic bar.

00:53:08.440 | Like, "Hey, we got Norm."

00:53:09.680 | There's so much shit comedy.

00:53:11.000 | Then you see Norm and you're like, "This is next level.

00:53:13.400 | "This is savant type shit."

00:53:15.540 | And then to lose him is like, ah.

00:53:18.000 | Norm had 20 more years at least of just content

00:53:21.720 | and content and thoughts and his point of view.

00:53:24.760 | And we'll never get that, and that sucks.

00:53:27.580 | - Yeah, there is something about artists.

00:53:29.380 | Like, Jimi Hendrix dying too early.

00:53:32.040 | It's like, you wonder--

00:53:34.080 | - What was next?

00:53:35.040 | - Yeah, what was next?

00:53:36.240 | But then part of it is like,

00:53:38.080 | it all ends for all of us and it's like walking away early

00:53:43.320 | is kind of admirable.

00:53:47.920 | It's almost like, I did a pretty good job.

00:53:50.840 | - Yeah.

00:53:51.680 | - I'm good with that.

00:53:53.800 | And especially the way he did,

00:53:55.160 | which is not telling anybody.

00:53:56.600 | - I know, nine years his best friends didn't even know.

00:53:59.600 | And in this world of like victimhood and I need clicks

00:54:02.340 | and I need people to love me,

00:54:03.840 | he got canceled and yelled at and in trouble

00:54:06.760 | and he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did.

00:54:09.080 | I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.

00:54:11.800 | - Did you get a chance to interact with him?

00:54:13.240 | Like, how often did you meet him?

00:54:15.200 | - I met him once at the comedy cellar

00:54:17.640 | and we chatted for five minutes and then he went on

00:54:20.160 | and did the Letterman set that he did.

00:54:21.920 | He was running the Letterman set and sweet guy,

00:54:25.400 | nice guy, I didn't know him that well,

00:54:26.920 | but I mean, he's just brilliant.

00:54:29.040 | And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff.

00:54:33.200 | That's a fun little combo there.

00:54:36.480 | Like silly guys who are actually brilliant also.

00:54:40.400 | You know, like Louis CK is a brilliant comic

00:54:42.480 | and he'll do a joke about farting on a kid.

00:54:46.000 | And you're like, that's great that he still finds farts

00:54:49.240 | funny and he's also this comedic genius guy.

00:54:52.160 | I like that.

00:54:53.480 | - And doesn't really acknowledge the genius.

00:54:55.440 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:54:56.280 | - Like that's, yeah.

00:54:58.120 | I like smart people, they're silly.

00:55:00.760 | - Yes, that's a good combo.

00:55:02.880 | Like you said, Elon is silly.

00:55:04.680 | Yeah, that's great.

00:55:06.120 | 'Cause we teach kids like, hey, put that down, stop that,

00:55:10.160 | quit cutting up, quit horsing around.

00:55:12.400 | But maybe that's some kind of sign of brilliance there.

00:55:15.000 | - Yeah, being like childlike and silly

00:55:18.080 | is a kind of wisdom.

00:55:19.800 | I feel like those people are way wiser than the people

00:55:22.320 | that, no offense to me, wear a suit

00:55:24.680 | and take themselves way too seriously.

00:55:26.960 | - No, but you got a spark in you.

00:55:28.600 | - A little bit.

00:55:29.440 | - You got a little, what's the word?

00:55:31.200 | Not elf, imp.

00:55:34.600 | Little imp in you.

00:55:35.720 | Give that a go.

00:55:36.560 | You know what imp?

00:55:37.400 | Little mischievous, it's like a little--

00:55:40.600 | - Is that a Tolkien character, imp?

00:55:43.240 | - Yeah, might be.

00:55:44.080 | - An imp is a European mythological being

00:55:45.960 | similar to a fairy or a demon.

00:55:47.640 | You calling me a fairy?

00:55:48.600 | - Well--

00:55:49.440 | - Frequently, okay, similar to a fairy or a demon.

00:55:53.560 | I feel like that's a big leap.

00:55:55.240 | - Big leap, yeah, that's not a great info bio there.

00:55:58.640 | - Frequently described in folklore and superstition,

00:56:01.320 | the word may perhaps derive from the term imp,

00:56:04.560 | spelled with a Y, used to denote a young grafted tree.

00:56:08.620 | - It's a little mischievous, you got a twinkle.

00:56:12.080 | You're the serious buttoned up guy, but this is a twinkle.

00:56:15.000 | - This is a twinkle, wow.

00:56:16.560 | And the audience can see the twinkle,

00:56:17.960 | and that's why you resonate, I think.

00:56:19.760 | I'm sorry.

00:56:22.560 | - Deep analysis by Mark Norman, psychological analysis.

00:56:25.920 | Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke.

00:56:28.920 | You said Chris Rock and Norm Macdonald, what for you,

00:56:31.740 | how do you know when the joke is done?

00:56:35.440 | Are there some jokes that you are proud of,

00:56:37.840 | wow, that's well done?

00:56:41.000 | - Yeah, the joke is done, it's a tough question

00:56:44.320 | 'cause there's so many different kinds of jokes.

00:56:45.520 | There's what we call a chunk, which is a big idea

00:56:48.360 | with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it,

00:56:50.140 | and then a big crescendo at the end,

00:56:53.200 | or there's a one-liner, or there's a tag of a joke

00:56:56.400 | that's also a joke.

00:56:57.660 | So the jokes come in different,

00:57:01.640 | like I have a joke where I say,

00:57:02.600 | I met my girl on that Jewish app.

00:57:04.520 | What's that Jewish app called?

00:57:06.680 | PayPal.

00:57:08.040 | - Nice.

00:57:08.880 | (laughing)

00:57:10.120 | - That's the hell, that's what the reaction you want

00:57:11.560 | from the crowd.

00:57:12.800 | But it's a fun turn 'cause you say your thing

00:57:17.120 | and then I hit you with a misdirect,

00:57:18.400 | and that's what a joke is.

00:57:19.440 | A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense,

00:57:22.840 | but you didn't see it coming.

00:57:24.520 | And that's a perfect example of that.

00:57:26.200 | So that joke took forever to figure out, by the way.

00:57:28.960 | - You had to go to different services like PayPal,

00:57:32.720 | what's funniest?

00:57:33.600 | - Exactly, and I figured PayPal is funny

00:57:35.800 | 'cause it has the word pay in it.

00:57:37.520 | Venmo, it's also not really a good word, Venmo, PayPal.

00:57:42.080 | It just hits better.

00:57:43.160 | - Yeah, PayPal's funnier somehow.

00:57:44.800 | - It's funnier somehow, and that's the beauty of comedy.

00:57:46.520 | There's a weird little magic into it.

00:57:47.920 | You can get technical all day and formulaic,

00:57:50.120 | but there's still that little bit of fairy dust

00:57:53.640 | that you don't know why this is funnier.

00:57:55.840 | - Or imp dust.

00:57:56.720 | - Imp dust, yes.

00:57:58.840 | - The why, okay.

00:58:00.880 | - So you know a joke is done when it kills,

00:58:02.600 | and there's a roundness to a joke

00:58:04.640 | when you feel like this is buttoned up, this is done here.

00:58:07.840 | - Is simplicity the right word there?

00:58:09.960 | - Yeah.

00:58:10.800 | - Is it like you're chopping stuff away

00:58:12.680 | or you're adding stuff?

00:58:13.600 | Like what does it feel like?

00:58:14.560 | - Simplicity is always the best angle.

00:58:17.200 | I mean, you can get real high concept with a joke

00:58:19.360 | and still make it work, but the simpler the better.

00:58:22.080 | I saw Dave Chappelle on stage once,

00:58:24.880 | and Chris Rock and Demetri Martin were in the back

00:58:28.080 | watching in awe, and Dave Chappelle,

00:58:30.480 | I can't remember the joke,

00:58:31.360 | but he said something about sex or women,

00:58:33.940 | and Demetri Martin goes, "Eh, it's a little easy,"

00:58:37.000 | and Chris Rock goes, "That's why it's good."

00:58:39.360 | And I remember hearing that as a young comic,

00:58:41.160 | like, "Ah, I'm getting this comedy lesson right here

00:58:44.520 | "for these two titans," and so that was fun.

00:58:47.720 | Simple is key.

00:58:49.000 | - So the easy is okay.

00:58:50.160 | That's such a weird, I think I remember reading

00:58:55.080 | or hearing Eminem say something about maybe the song

00:58:58.200 | Slim Shady, one of the songs, he's like,

00:59:00.720 | "I knew it was gonna be good because it got

00:59:04.440 | "really repetitive and annoying very quickly,"

00:59:07.280 | or something like that.

00:59:08.120 | - I mean, that's sort of the music equivalent

00:59:10.480 | of it's too easy.

00:59:12.920 | Like, if it's super catchy, as a musician,

00:59:16.080 | you might get very quickly bored of it.

00:59:19.680 | Or as you're creating it, no, it's too easy.

00:59:23.320 | It's like, there needs to be some more complexity to it.

00:59:26.840 | - I like complexity, but the best guys

00:59:28.960 | who are the ones who make complex shit look simple.

00:59:33.600 | Like, you ever heard that Ben Franklin story

00:59:36.920 | where he's talking to his friend,

00:59:37.760 | he's like, "I'm gonna start a hat store."

00:59:39.600 | So he puts a sign out, it says, "Hats for sale, $12."

00:59:43.520 | And Ben Franklin looks at it, he goes,

00:59:46.240 | "Well, you don't need the $12 'cause all they need to know

00:59:49.000 | "is that you got hats for sale."

00:59:50.080 | He's like, "All right," so he loses the $12,

00:59:51.720 | makes a new sign, "Hats for sale," and he goes,

00:59:53.920 | "You don't really need for sale because it's a business.

00:59:56.980 | "People can put that together."

00:59:58.600 | So he just goes, "All right," he makes a new sign,

01:00:00.120 | it says, "Hats," and then Ben Franklin's like,

01:00:03.000 | "You know, you don't really need the word hat.

01:00:05.280 | "You can just put a picture of a hat."

01:00:07.080 | And he made a new sign, which is a picture of a hat,

01:00:08.840 | and it helped the business or something.

01:00:10.440 | That's like some old wives' tale or whatever,

01:00:12.440 | but I think about that all the time when I'm writing.

01:00:14.920 | I thought this was going to, like, there was no sign.

01:00:17.280 | It went super, like, realistic.

01:00:19.200 | Oh, maybe, maybe, that could work, too.

01:00:21.200 | What, like, as a comedian, so I'm a fan of yours.

01:00:26.600 | I enjoy, I really enjoy you in conversations.

01:00:29.080 | Wow, now?

01:00:30.640 | I'm getting nothing out of you.

01:00:31.840 | No, this is--

01:00:32.880 | All right, I can't tell.

01:00:33.800 | Oh, like emotion?

01:00:35.000 | You're tough not to read.

01:00:36.560 | Cold inside.

01:00:37.720 | I mean, just the quickness you have.

01:00:40.840 | Obviously, you're also a great stand-up comedian.

01:00:43.240 | What's your favorite medium to shine in?

01:00:46.440 | So you have a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast.

01:00:50.120 | Thanks.

01:00:52.080 | You're often the podcast guest.

01:00:53.520 | Yeah.

01:00:55.080 | Which is always fun to listen to,

01:00:56.800 | how you're gonna deal with the different people.

01:00:58.680 | You're great on "Rogan."

01:01:00.280 | Oh, thanks.

01:01:01.120 | What do you enjoy most?

01:01:04.120 | Podcasts are great because you can stretch out

01:01:06.920 | a little more, you can breathe a little.

01:01:08.640 | You know, with a stand-up set,

01:01:09.560 | I like to be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

01:01:11.840 | But podcasts are great 'cause it's conversational.

01:01:14.920 | So you can be, it's almost like you're being funny

01:01:16.800 | with your friends.

01:01:18.120 | Whereas a stage is like a, this is a piece,

01:01:20.400 | this is a presentation.

01:01:21.760 | But I think the podcast is great,

01:01:25.240 | but you don't get the reaction.

01:01:27.000 | Unless the host is laughing, you can't hear the guy

01:01:29.200 | in his car in New Jersey driving to work going, "Ah!"

01:01:32.400 | Every now and then, I'll read a comment like,

01:01:33.520 | "I spit out my coffee when you said this."

01:01:35.160 | And I'm like, but it's not immediate.

01:01:37.600 | You want the immediate.

01:01:38.440 | So stand-up will always be number one,

01:01:40.520 | but there's no better feeling than killing in a room

01:01:44.480 | of people who don't know who you are,

01:01:46.080 | strangers, you're in the middle of nowhere,

01:01:48.240 | you left your wife at home, you left your kids,

01:01:50.560 | you left your house, you're in the middle

01:01:52.520 | of bum-fucked Dickville and murdering

01:01:55.560 | for these hillbilly nobody, whatever it is.

01:01:58.760 | And they're slinging their beers and woo,

01:02:01.200 | cheering you on and they carry you out.

01:02:03.280 | And you fuck some fat lady and you leave

01:02:06.000 | and you get back to your hotel and you go,

01:02:07.440 | "Holy shit, what was that?

01:02:09.320 | "No one will ever know about it, just lost in the ether."

01:02:12.640 | That's the best feeling.

01:02:14.440 | - Yeah, killing in obscurity, as Bill Burr would say.

01:02:17.580 | - Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks

01:02:20.720 | about giving lectures at universities,

01:02:25.720 | or giving lectures in general, is when you look

01:02:28.800 | at the audience, several hundred students,

01:02:33.800 | they all have a bored look on their face.

01:02:36.120 | - Yeah, of course.

01:02:36.960 | - Like my face now probably looks bored,

01:02:40.040 | but I'm actually excited to be talking to you.

01:02:42.360 | But there's something about just,

01:02:44.360 | there's something about a comedy called,

01:02:46.800 | maybe this is the contingent of laughter,

01:02:48.960 | but it gives people the freedom to just laugh,

01:02:51.720 | to remove that facade of you don't have to pretend

01:02:56.720 | like you don't care.

01:02:58.240 | If you care, you can show it.

01:02:59.720 | - Yes.

01:03:00.560 | - And you can have fun with it.

01:03:01.600 | Probably liquor helps a lot too.

01:03:03.800 | - It helps, for sure.

01:03:05.280 | But there is a, especially, and that's why comedy

01:03:07.680 | I think is so popular right now,

01:03:09.400 | because HR is up our ass, we're scared of old tweets

01:03:13.920 | that might come back to haunt us.

01:03:15.400 | What did I say on that interview?

01:03:17.240 | Even people at offices are like,

01:03:18.680 | "I put something on Facebook in 1999

01:03:22.040 | "that was about fat tits that I liked.

01:03:24.280 | "Should I get rid of that?"

01:03:25.860 | Even people say, "There's no cancel," whatever.

01:03:28.820 | There is something in the air right now

01:03:30.940 | that wasn't there before.

01:03:32.420 | It's the video, "I'm a Karen, I got caught at Trader Joe,"

01:03:35.700 | whatever it is, people rat on each other now,

01:03:37.860 | everybody's tattletailing 'cause they want the clicks.

01:03:40.040 | It's a horrible society we've crafted.

01:03:42.580 | But stand-up comedy gets you to come out,

01:03:46.860 | and now people do it at stand-up shows too, sadly,

01:03:49.220 | but it gets you to come out and let that inhibition down.

01:03:52.380 | 'Cause we're all human, we've all had the fucked up thoughts

01:03:54.740 | like, "Man, that guy's fat as shit."

01:03:57.020 | It doesn't mean you hate the guy,

01:03:57.980 | it doesn't mean you hate fat people,

01:03:58.820 | it doesn't mean you're fat-shaming,

01:04:00.260 | but you can't say that at the office.

01:04:01.580 | You can't go, "Bob, you're fat as shit."

01:04:03.040 | You'll get fired for body-shaming.

01:04:04.980 | But at the club, you go, "That guy's fat as shit."

01:04:08.220 | The crowd goes, "He is fat as shit, ah!"

01:04:10.940 | And it's this weird cathartic thing

01:04:12.180 | 'cause all we do is tamp shit down.

01:04:14.180 | It's kind of like you ever meet a girl

01:04:15.380 | who's all prim and proper in the bedroom,

01:04:17.300 | she's like, "Put a lamp up my ass, ah,"

01:04:19.700 | whatever it is.

01:04:20.740 | It's 'cause we gotta get it out.

01:04:22.940 | We're all repressed in some way.

01:04:24.980 | - So I guess what you're saying is comedy's important.

01:04:27.780 | (laughing)

01:04:29.580 | - Yes, callback!

01:04:31.900 | - All right. - Well played, sir.

01:04:33.300 | - Yeah.

01:04:34.340 | What do you think about Austin?

01:04:36.020 | What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin?

01:04:37.500 | We talked about LA and New York.

01:04:39.860 | What do you think about what Joe's trying to create there?

01:04:42.380 | So I should say that the reason I moved to Austin,

01:04:46.700 | I have this dream of,

01:04:48.420 | it wouldn't be funny if I said this dream

01:04:49.740 | of becoming a comedian.

01:04:50.820 | - Oh, God.

01:04:51.660 | (laughing)

01:04:52.980 | - It's an audience, at least.

01:04:53.980 | - Yeah, that's true.

01:04:55.260 | You know, I always said you can hear the music

01:04:56.820 | in the distance.

01:04:57.660 | I have this dream around robotics

01:05:00.020 | and artificial intelligence,

01:05:01.100 | whether it's a company,

01:05:01.940 | whether it's something else,

01:05:03.020 | that was just pulling me to,

01:05:05.220 | I actually wanted to move to San Francisco,

01:05:06.700 | and then all my friends in San Francisco said,

01:05:08.900 | "No, it's the wrong place."

01:05:10.060 | - Yeah.

01:05:10.900 | - At this time, the cynicism there

01:05:16.220 | is just not conducive to taking big leaps

01:05:20.380 | into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing.

01:05:23.580 | And Austin was that,

01:05:24.980 | for me in particular with Elon Musk,

01:05:28.140 | but also just the energy that everybody had,

01:05:30.540 | including Joe, the excitement about the future.

01:05:34.540 | I don't care if Austin burns to the ground

01:05:37.140 | and it actually is a complete failure.

01:05:39.000 | Being excited about the future seems to be,

01:05:43.020 | like, optimism about the future seems to be the thing

01:05:46.260 | that actually makes that future happen,

01:05:48.380 | makes a great future happen.

01:05:49.600 | So it's always cool for me to see Joe super excited

01:05:54.600 | about creating a culture in Austin,

01:05:57.900 | like making it a comedy hub.

01:06:01.460 | I don't wanna overstate it,

01:06:02.740 | but I think he really believes

01:06:04.860 | it'll be a very big place for comedy

01:06:08.340 | in the United States in general, in the world.

01:06:10.500 | And so just even believing that, that's powerful.

01:06:13.540 | - I agree.

01:06:14.380 | - You start to make it happen, that energy is there.

01:06:18.740 | Anyway, so, but that's for me

01:06:20.240 | from just an outsider watching the fun of it.

01:06:23.040 | I should also mention for less of an outsider,

01:06:26.080 | more insider in the martial arts world,

01:06:29.160 | partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure,

01:06:32.120 | like John Donahue, Gordon Ryan, the B team,

01:06:36.240 | all of those folks, those are,

01:06:37.760 | that might be gibberish to you,

01:06:39.360 | but those are like some of the greatest grapplers

01:06:42.600 | and martial artists of all time.

01:06:43.860 | So it's also becoming this hub of martial arts.

01:06:46.960 | So the whole thing is just beautiful.

01:06:49.880 | Anyway, what are your thoughts about that scene?

01:06:52.920 | - Well, there's a lot here, a lot of things to mention.

01:06:55.960 | One, I think Joe did do that to a degree,

01:07:00.960 | all these people, Sagura lives there now,

01:07:03.160 | a lot of comics live there, he's opening clubs,

01:07:05.720 | other clubs are opening.

01:07:07.620 | I think it's happening.

01:07:08.880 | That's the other thing is people go,

01:07:10.360 | everybody's moving to Austin, Austin's the new hub.

01:07:12.440 | And then they look at their watch and they go,

01:07:13.840 | five minutes went by, nothing changed.

01:07:15.360 | It's gonna take years, but everybody wants it now, now, now.

01:07:19.920 | What, Austin, there's no industry there,

01:07:23.880 | there's no Netflix, whatever.

01:07:25.360 | And you're like, yeah, I know, but it needs a minute.

01:07:27.320 | You can't just do this overnight.

01:07:28.600 | So people forget that.

01:07:30.060 | So it could happen huge, just give it some time.

01:07:33.240 | I mean, he's opening a club, I went and saw it.

01:07:35.080 | It's incredible, like it's so perfect for comedy.

01:07:38.000 | It's every detail, it's incredible.

01:07:39.960 | But so it could happen still.

01:07:44.040 | I do think there's a little biting off more

01:07:47.240 | than they can chew with Austin because it's not that big.

01:07:50.880 | So like-- - And it's spread out.

01:07:52.200 | I mean, yeah, it's not big.

01:07:53.280 | And the infrastructure's not quite there to support it.

01:07:57.440 | But it has a lot of, you know,

01:07:59.720 | comparing from the tech side,

01:08:01.900 | it has a lot of land to expand into.

01:08:05.000 | So it might become this-- - True, that helps.

01:08:07.280 | - Like you're basically establishing,

01:08:08.840 | it's kind of like New York,

01:08:10.280 | you're establishing these whole neighborhoods.

01:08:12.800 | And you have the freedom to do that

01:08:14.240 | because there's a lot of space on all sides.

01:08:17.400 | - Yes, okay, so that helps.

01:08:18.720 | So again, maybe some time.

01:08:20.660 | I do agree with this, that new hope,

01:08:24.640 | that's kind of built into human beings of like,

01:08:27.160 | let's go to America, let's go to Utopia.

01:08:29.560 | We even have it with space.

01:08:30.680 | Let's go to Mars, we gotta see what's over there.

01:08:33.280 | And it's just red, dusty bullshit, but you still gotta go.

01:08:37.300 | So I'm with you on that about this new hope, this new land.

01:08:41.280 | And I think that is beautiful.

01:08:42.800 | And I think there's a lot of haters,

01:08:44.000 | I think there's a lot of naysayers who hate change,

01:08:47.000 | who hate anything new.

01:08:48.300 | And then I think you gotta go, hey, that hurts, that sucks,

01:08:51.000 | but blow me, Dickless, I'm trying something, you're a loser.

01:08:55.400 | Stop hating on me.

01:08:57.120 | I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk, you know?

01:08:59.320 | - Yeah, it's hilarious.

01:09:00.640 | I mean, there's some of the criticism on Austin,

01:09:03.640 | it's like a fad.

01:09:04.800 | Like a lot of people are really--

01:09:06.120 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:09:06.960 | - Are really, people are excited about Austin.

01:09:08.920 | And somehow that's like, it's like when Green Day

01:09:11.800 | became famous, you no longer want to be a fan of Green Day.

01:09:15.320 | But to me, like that's--

01:09:17.400 | - Austin was already a cool town.

01:09:19.000 | Like every comic five years ago was like,

01:09:21.360 | ooh, I got Austin this weekend, I can't wait.

01:09:23.960 | So it already had a buzz.

01:09:25.360 | But some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part.

01:09:29.440 | The fact that it was like this off the beaten path city,

01:09:33.120 | and now I get to visit it and then leave.

01:09:35.600 | But I think it could still be this comedy tech booming place.

01:09:40.320 | It just will take some time and people want it right now.

01:09:43.240 | - Well, on the tech side, it's--

01:09:47.000 | - It's already there?

01:09:47.840 | - It's getting there very fast.

01:09:50.160 | So I mean, Elon's really pushing that with the factory.

01:09:53.760 | It's just a huge number of people are moving there with jobs

01:09:58.520 | like you're already starting.

01:10:00.320 | And then the opportunities to launch new companies

01:10:03.000 | is just incredible.

01:10:04.080 | I guess it's not right now, it's like within months,

01:10:06.960 | within a year, that kind of thing.

01:10:09.160 | But like, it's an opportunity to just start to build shit

01:10:13.480 | in a new place.

01:10:14.440 | And it's cool.

01:10:15.280 | It's kind of like, you know, go to Mars.

01:10:17.200 | It's like you get to start over.

01:10:18.560 | - Yeah, and I like the hope aspect.

01:10:20.760 | I think that's huge for people.

01:10:22.720 | And I'm all for it.

01:10:25.400 | I hope it works out.

01:10:26.340 | I don't know if it will.

01:10:27.440 | But I don't know anything about economies

01:10:29.600 | and city planning and all that shit.

01:10:32.080 | So it might be too early to say, but I hope it works.

01:10:35.960 | - Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?

01:10:37.840 | - Austin.

01:10:38.680 | Mars is, there's nothing there.

01:10:41.600 | There's no vagina there.

01:10:42.880 | There's no food there.

01:10:44.120 | There's no water there.

01:10:45.000 | I don't know.

01:10:45.840 | It seems, I get space travel.

01:10:48.160 | I think it's important, but I don't know Mars

01:10:51.080 | is really gonna move the needle.

01:10:53.540 | - So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX

01:10:59.680 | and launching rockets into space?

01:11:01.560 | - I think it's all good because you could say,

01:11:04.240 | hey, we could just feed everybody.

01:11:05.640 | And I was like, yeah, that's true.

01:11:07.240 | By the way, these guys give a ton of money

01:11:08.680 | to like philanthropy shit that nobody cares about.

01:11:11.840 | By the way, you know, it's weird.

01:11:12.920 | Like he can feed the Nigeria and with pocket change of his.

01:11:17.760 | And you're like, well, maybe he has, you know?

01:11:20.000 | Like I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money

01:11:21.840 | he saved 6 million lives.

01:11:23.400 | But that's a reverse Holocaust, by the way.

01:11:26.200 | That's pretty good.

01:11:27.320 | What have you done?

01:11:28.160 | You're a barista.

01:11:29.280 | So, you know, I just think,

01:11:33.280 | I think space travel is good because you learn

01:11:36.200 | about the place you're living in from going to space.

01:11:39.800 | It kind of helps you learn about this more.

01:11:42.720 | You could say, what's the point of going to this other there?

01:11:44.400 | But it does help, I think.

01:11:46.680 | - Yeah, doing difficult things in the engineering space

01:11:49.880 | seems to be a way to develop,

01:11:51.520 | like as almost like an accident,

01:11:54.680 | as a side effect of doing a really difficult thing

01:11:57.160 | in a team of brilliant people.

01:11:58.720 | You develop things like the internet.

01:12:01.040 | And you could argue that the internet

01:12:02.640 | maybe is not so good for society.

01:12:04.160 | No, I'm just kidding.

01:12:05.000 | - It's good and bad.

01:12:06.080 | - Yeah, but--

01:12:07.040 | - But it's like a pull-up.

01:12:08.000 | You're trying to get your bicep going,

01:12:09.240 | but hey, before you know it, you got decent forearms.

01:12:12.160 | But you weren't working on the forearms.

01:12:13.440 | You wanted the bi, but you got the fore.

01:12:15.840 | And I think that's kind of what space travel is.

01:12:18.600 | - I like how this pivoted into a workout routine advice.

01:12:22.440 | - I'm trying to get an analogy going here.

01:12:25.080 | - All right, they work pretty well.

01:12:26.520 | - I'll take it.

01:12:27.360 | - All right, what are your thoughts about,

01:12:30.360 | since I'm a robotics person,

01:12:32.320 | I'd be curious to see like what,

01:12:34.040 | do you think about the space at all?

01:12:37.880 | About, first of all, autonomous vehicles

01:12:39.760 | with Tesla Autopilot and Waymo, self-driving car.

01:12:44.760 | I'm not sure if you're familiar

01:12:46.280 | with all the autonomous vehicles and so on.

01:12:48.680 | So those are robots on wheels.

01:12:51.000 | And then there's also legged robots.

01:12:52.920 | So next time you're in Austin,

01:12:54.840 | you get to meet some of the legged robots.

01:12:56.400 | - I hope to.

01:12:57.240 | - Been working on.

01:13:00.240 | And I find those kind of a fascinating way

01:13:04.640 | to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers,

01:13:09.640 | but also explore our own intelligence

01:13:13.540 | and also explore our own,

01:13:15.240 | like what makes us connect to other living beings,

01:13:20.840 | whether it's dogs, cats, or other humans.

01:13:24.000 | Like there's some magic there

01:13:26.080 | that's beyond just intelligence.

01:13:28.000 | And like when I have the robot dog,

01:13:30.480 | there's some aspect to it that, I don't know,

01:13:34.520 | brings me joy in a way that a dog does,

01:13:37.080 | in a way that a good friend does.

01:13:38.400 | - Really?

01:13:39.240 | Oh, that's interesting.

01:13:40.080 | - And I'm not sure if that's some kind of anthropomorphism,

01:13:43.440 | like where I'm projecting my hopes for what this thing is.

01:13:48.440 | - Maybe a little of that.

01:13:49.680 | - But it's kind of built in.

01:13:50.960 | I mean, it's just a source of joy.

01:13:52.600 | Maybe it's connected to the fact

01:13:54.480 | that there's just like a loneliness within all of us,

01:13:57.960 | within me, and it's just nice to have other things

01:14:02.160 | in your life that move, that recognize you,

01:14:04.960 | that kind of thing.

01:14:05.840 | I mean, I suppose it's nice to even just have a plant.

01:14:09.120 | - Yeah, it is.

01:14:10.120 | Plant goes a long way.

01:14:10.960 | You see a guy with plants in his apartment,

01:14:12.480 | it changes the apartment 'cause they're alive.

01:14:14.240 | You gotta water 'em.

01:14:15.080 | You gotta put sun on 'em.

01:14:16.000 | So yeah, I think there's something there.

01:14:17.600 | And I think you can see people's reactions

01:14:19.720 | when you show them advanced technology,

01:14:22.600 | like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit.

01:14:25.760 | People are like, "What the fuck?"

01:14:27.720 | Like it hits home in some way, whether it's fear

01:14:30.240 | or you wanna fuck 'em, clearly, whatever it is,

01:14:33.800 | but it does connect with you in some way.

01:14:36.480 | So I'm with you.

01:14:38.480 | And I think, this is why I don't think robots will take over.

01:14:41.000 | You always hear that, "Robot, they're making 'em too advanced.

01:14:42.760 | "They're gonna wipe us out, blah, blah, blah."

01:14:45.880 | If robots get at human emotions,

01:14:49.000 | that is scary 'cause they could get mad at us and kill us

01:14:52.160 | and they're stronger and they don't need sleep,

01:14:53.560 | they don't need food, they don't need water,

01:14:55.720 | they don't get jealous, but if they have emotions,

01:14:59.400 | then I think we can dominate them

01:15:01.400 | because who knows emotions better than us?

01:15:04.240 | We've got thousands of years

01:15:05.800 | of evolutionary emotional bullshit.

01:15:08.280 | We can go, "Hey, robot, I heard your wife fucked

01:15:10.480 | "that Black and Decker, huh?"

01:15:12.320 | They're gonna crumble.

01:15:13.840 | We can bully them.

01:15:15.280 | Emotionally manipulated robots.

01:15:16.880 | Yes, that's when we'll win.

01:15:18.640 | Right now, they could kill us.

01:15:21.240 | They could just, (imitates explosion)

01:15:22.400 | We'd all die, then we shoot them back.

01:15:23.960 | Bing, bing, bing, bing, that's no good.

01:15:25.840 | But if they do get emotions, then we can go,

01:15:28.160 | "Hey, you look like hell.

01:15:29.440 | "What is that, a rusty bolt?

01:15:30.520 | "Hey, you're dropping some oil there, you loser."

01:15:32.800 | I think we can win if they do get emotions.

01:15:35.320 | - This goes back to your father being able

01:15:37.320 | to undercut you with a single word.

01:15:38.760 | (laughing)

01:15:39.600 | - You're right.

01:15:40.440 | - Yeah, so we're the creators of the robots

01:15:42.280 | and then the robots will just,

01:15:43.560 | you would say the exact thing where the robot would be like,

01:15:47.960 | "That son of a bitch."

01:15:49.280 | And then he goes back to his hole

01:15:51.320 | and just sits there miserable.

01:15:52.960 | - Right, yeah, hardware looks more like software to me.

01:15:55.880 | He can't get it up, yada, yada, yada.

01:15:59.080 | But I'm not worried about robots and I think self,

01:16:01.540 | what do you think about the self-driving cars?

01:16:03.280 | Is that just wiping out the horse and buggy?

01:16:06.480 | Isn't that just progression of technology?

01:16:09.360 | - Yeah, so I don't know if you've driven in a Tesla,

01:16:11.800 | for example.

01:16:13.240 | - I rode in the passenger, I didn't drive it.

01:16:16.120 | - Yeah, there's several stages in that.

01:16:18.160 | I think the problem is way harder than people realize

01:16:20.880 | and for quite a while, it'll just make driving more pleasant.

01:16:24.320 | It'll make it less stressful,

01:16:26.720 | it'll take over some of the boring bits for you,

01:16:29.680 | it'll make it easier.

01:16:30.520 | Like there's something that happens actually

01:16:31.920 | when the car is driving for you in the following way.

01:16:36.480 | Like it's staying in the lane,

01:16:38.800 | it's keeping distance to the car in front of you,

01:16:40.380 | maybe it's changing lanes.

01:16:42.400 | It allows you to relax a little bit.

01:16:44.480 | - Yes.

01:16:45.320 | - You become, you still have to be alert

01:16:48.080 | but you become like a passenger

01:16:49.520 | and you get to like take in the world.

01:16:51.320 | I mean, somehow that's more relaxing

01:16:53.600 | without making you necessarily like bored more.

01:16:58.480 | It energizes you more.

01:16:59.880 | So I just think it makes the driving experience

01:17:01.600 | more pleasant but when you actually fully automate cars,

01:17:05.200 | when you can just completely tune out

01:17:06.680 | and start reading a book or go to sleep,

01:17:09.040 | that might change society like in ways

01:17:13.920 | we don't even understand

01:17:15.600 | because you'll have, I mean,

01:17:18.500 | it'll probably change the nature of roads

01:17:22.080 | because the cars, 'cause now you can be super productive

01:17:25.720 | and so it no longer quite matters to you as much

01:17:29.320 | how long it takes to get from point A to point B

01:17:31.980 | because you're not wasting that time,

01:17:34.360 | you just continue working.

01:17:36.320 | - Yeah.

01:17:37.160 | - It's like public transit that comes to you.

01:17:38.960 | - Exactly.

01:17:40.060 | - And so there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads

01:17:43.960 | and it will just change the nature

01:17:45.360 | of how we get from point A to point B.

01:17:47.320 | - I think you're right.

01:17:48.160 | - But then couple that also with the fact

01:17:50.400 | that we seem to be more and more comfortable

01:17:53.480 | existing in the digital world.

01:17:55.160 | - Yeah.

01:17:56.040 | - So like maybe we won't wanna go outside more and more,

01:17:59.120 | we'll just interact with each other virtually.

01:18:01.240 | And I don't mean Zoom meetings,

01:18:02.380 | I mean just in other ways that's more fulfilling

01:18:07.380 | than a Zoom meeting.

01:18:10.880 | But then maybe not because like there's something

01:18:12.960 | deeply uncompelling about Zoom meetings.

01:18:16.560 | Like podcasts that are remote,

01:18:18.780 | unless they're super information dense,

01:18:21.600 | at least to me as a podcast fan, kinda suck.

01:18:24.040 | - They suck, there's no connection,

01:18:25.320 | it goes back to the dog thing.

01:18:26.960 | With the Zoom there's no connection.

01:18:28.900 | - Yeah and we're not, I don't understand why,

01:18:31.440 | we're not even making eye contact.

01:18:32.720 | - I know, but it's just something there,

01:18:34.760 | it's in the room, there's pheromones

01:18:36.080 | and that's like out of our understanding probably,

01:18:39.120 | just some kind of weird biological,

01:18:41.480 | you know you ever have Cheerios in a bowl?

01:18:43.560 | The Cheerios tend to, they tend to go together,

01:18:47.200 | you see a cluster of Cheerios.

01:18:48.680 | They're never really hanging out on the other side

01:18:50.320 | and that's kinda how people are in real life.

01:18:53.600 | - I wonder what the physics of that is.

01:18:55.120 | So they come together and they stick.

01:18:57.440 | - It's something with molecules.

01:18:58.880 | - Yeah.

01:18:59.720 | - I don't know, I can't remember what it was,

01:19:00.540 | but it was fascinating and I think that's how people are.

01:19:02.320 | And I think you try to write a TV show

01:19:04.920 | or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, nothing there.

01:19:10.640 | It's like phone sex versus penetration.

01:19:13.860 | One day you'll learn that.

01:19:16.160 | - I know nothing of either of the,

01:19:18.240 | I look forward 'cause I think there's a phone sex

01:19:20.320 | Netflix documentary that, there's a show

01:19:23.120 | or something like that that is really popular

01:19:25.640 | that I wanna go watch, at least I can learn about that.

01:19:28.960 | - Okay, I could send you some links.

01:19:31.120 | - Oh, on the internet?

01:19:32.480 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:19:33.960 | - Yeah.

01:19:34.800 | - But yeah, self-driving car, I think it's just inevitable,

01:19:37.600 | it's coming and these truckers are gonna have

01:19:39.640 | to figure something out.

01:19:41.080 | - Yeah, I mean, that's an under-understood industry,

01:19:44.920 | actually, 'cause there's not,

01:19:46.360 | there's a lot of trucking jobs.

01:19:48.960 | - Oh yeah.

01:19:49.800 | - And people don't wanna, well, people don't wanna

01:19:51.440 | actually take them anymore because it's such a difficult job

01:19:53.800 | so it won't have, or a lot of people believe it won't have

01:19:58.320 | as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate.

01:20:01.160 | - Oh good.

01:20:02.000 | - There'll be other automation I think

01:20:03.160 | that'll have a huge impact.

01:20:04.680 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:20:06.080 | I mean, you already see it in McDonald's,

01:20:07.320 | you go to the beep, beep, beep,

01:20:08.560 | why do you wanna get yelled at by the heavyset woman

01:20:10.800 | of color for making a bad order

01:20:13.480 | when you can just hit the screen?

01:20:15.480 | But those interactions I think are human,

01:20:19.080 | I mean, that's part of life,

01:20:20.040 | so it is scary taking away everything.

01:20:22.260 | How long 'til we're not fucking?

01:20:24.060 | That's coming too.

01:20:25.280 | - Yeah.

01:20:26.120 | - Then there's gonna have two types of people.

01:20:27.880 | Are you a fuck in real life or are you a digital fuck person?

01:20:31.360 | Oh, I'm a digital, oh, I like real fucking,

01:20:33.120 | sorry, we can't date.

01:20:34.440 | That's coming.

01:20:35.540 | - Well, there's also the reproduction side of sex,

01:20:39.940 | which is like with genetic engineering,

01:20:42.420 | you'll be able to specify a little bit of details.

01:20:45.980 | I talked to Jamie Marzo about that,

01:20:47.780 | like where you can specify,

01:20:52.160 | it'll start with like, I want my child not to have

01:20:58.720 | like a high likelihood of diabetes or something like that.

01:21:02.060 | And then you just get to specify like intelligence,

01:21:04.740 | you just get to specify those kinds of parameters

01:21:07.100 | until you're like basically trying to create a perfect human

01:21:10.940 | and you lose some of the magic of the flaws

01:21:12.580 | that make us who we are.

01:21:13.700 | - Yes.

01:21:14.660 | - And I'm pretty sure in the full lineup of humans,

01:21:19.300 | so let me give you some information.

01:21:23.620 | - Lay it off me, buddy.

01:21:24.860 | Break it down.

01:21:25.700 | - I'm sure you researched this thoroughly,

01:21:29.460 | but a male of the human species,

01:21:33.860 | the homo sapien, produces 500 billion sperm cells

01:21:38.860 | in a lifetime.

01:21:41.620 | So that's all, some more than others,

01:21:45.420 | that's all genetically unique humans that you could produce.

01:21:51.500 | So even across those 500 billion, you can select.

01:21:54.640 | - What do you mean, like abort some?

01:21:57.820 | - No, you can choose which of them you want.

01:22:00.380 | I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities

01:22:03.020 | that are there, like all the possible,

01:22:05.020 | like you won the race.

01:22:07.940 | - Yes.

01:22:08.780 | Shocking.

01:22:10.620 | - Yeah, this is a winner.

01:22:11.460 | - You won out of all the 500 billion?

01:22:13.020 | - You have to imagine what the competition was.

01:22:15.620 | - Oh, just tarts all day long, handicap.

01:22:19.940 | - Well, so it's not actually the fastest sperm

01:22:23.100 | or like it's, I think a lot of it is timing and luck.

01:22:26.340 | What it seems like.

01:22:28.040 | There's actual papers on this

01:22:29.180 | and I've actually been reading them.

01:22:30.940 | - I hope so.

01:22:31.940 | - So it's not just like the fastest sperm to the egg.

01:22:34.100 | - Okay.

01:22:34.940 | - There's a timing thing.

01:22:36.300 | So you were just lucky.

01:22:37.980 | - All right, I believe that.

01:22:40.540 | - So it's interesting to think about,

01:22:41.740 | like once you're able to specify

01:22:44.060 | some parameters of what your child is like,

01:22:49.220 | how that changes the nature of,

01:22:51.560 | even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together

01:22:58.840 | and making, creating together a child.

01:23:02.320 | - Yeah.

01:23:03.160 | - I mean, it changes it.

01:23:04.640 | It's almost like, I don't know,

01:23:06.040 | it becomes like a factory line of some kind.

01:23:10.720 | - If you don't meet naturally.

01:23:12.920 | - Yeah, if you don't meet naturally

01:23:14.560 | and then you don't and you get to optimize your child,

01:23:18.640 | then it's--

01:23:19.480 | - Yeah.

01:23:20.320 | - Then it's something like you have to consider

01:23:21.880 | utilitarian type of things, like what's good for society

01:23:25.480 | and it'll probably be regulation

01:23:27.280 | about what kind of children you can have and not.

01:23:29.560 | Like your child cannot have an IQ below this

01:23:32.220 | or above this or something like that.

01:23:34.160 | Or your child cannot--

01:23:35.760 | - We already kind of do that with VIP clubs,

01:23:39.240 | like, "Ah, you're kind of ugly."

01:23:40.960 | Or women go, "Hey, he's not tall enough."

01:23:43.320 | We kind of do it a little.

01:23:44.560 | - Yeah.

01:23:45.400 | - Especially sexually.

01:23:46.600 | - Yeah, we do.

01:23:47.440 | - Can't get on the roller coaster,

01:23:48.720 | if you're this short, whatever it is.

01:23:50.160 | You know, we do it in some capacity.

01:23:52.760 | - But here, this would be like fully transparent

01:23:57.120 | and to a degree that it's hard to imagine.

01:24:00.080 | Like the way we currently do it,

01:24:02.000 | you can at least get around it.

01:24:03.760 | - Yes, yes.

01:24:04.600 | - You can at least trick your way onto the roller coaster,

01:24:07.000 | even if you're short.

01:24:08.200 | - Right, or the fat guy can get rich so he can get laid.

01:24:11.280 | You know, there's other ways.

01:24:12.720 | - At the risk of asking the totally wrong person

01:24:16.600 | this question, what advice would you give

01:24:19.600 | to young people today in high school and college

01:24:23.080 | about how to have a successful career

01:24:26.800 | or career they're proud of

01:24:28.640 | or maybe have a life that they're proud of?

01:24:30.920 | - Ooh.

01:24:32.360 | Well, first of all, you gotta be,

01:24:34.280 | you gotta want a life you're proud of.

01:24:35.800 | Not everybody has any integrity.

01:24:38.400 | A lot of people just want short money.

01:24:40.520 | I wanna feel good, look good right now.

01:24:44.680 | I wanna do Molly, boom, I'll feel good, you know?

01:24:47.360 | But you should space it out.

01:24:50.600 | It's almost like saving money so you can use it later.

01:24:53.200 | Nobody wants to save money.

01:24:54.360 | What do they say, like 11% of America

01:24:56.000 | actually has money saved, $1,000 or some shit?

01:24:59.360 | It's wildly low.

01:25:01.520 | Everybody wants it now, now, what do you call it,

01:25:04.320 | immediate gratification.

01:25:06.200 | I think the key to happiness and satisfaction

01:25:10.320 | is working for something, even if it's, it's like a baby.

01:25:14.960 | If you could have a baby in five minutes,

01:25:16.640 | if a woman, you got her, you jizzed in her

01:25:18.760 | and she had a baby, oh, five minutes, boom,

01:25:21.320 | newborn, healthy, I think you'd be more likely

01:25:24.280 | to throw it away.

01:25:25.840 | If you could make it that quick.

01:25:27.240 | It's the fact that you spent nine months

01:25:29.520 | backbreaking the labor, the lactating,

01:25:32.240 | the ripped placenta and the hymen or whatever the fuck,

01:25:36.080 | that's what makes you love it.

01:25:37.640 | And I think it's the same with comedy

01:25:38.880 | or making money or whatever.

01:25:41.480 | Look at these kids who like child stars.

01:25:43.760 | They all become heroin addicts at like 22

01:25:46.080 | because they've just, their sensors are burned out,

01:25:48.440 | their pleasure sensors, you didn't have to earn it.

01:25:51.400 | I think earning it is a big part of life

01:25:53.760 | and always try to do better, try to do more,

01:25:56.600 | try to learn new things.

01:25:58.160 | Hey, I'm bored, life sucks, play the piano then, you chooch.

01:26:02.600 | But you won't do it because it takes effort

01:26:05.040 | and failure and all that, but that's the good part.

01:26:08.560 | And I know it's hard to see.

01:26:10.280 | So I think that's a good key to life

01:26:13.800 | is work hard at something you care about

01:26:16.040 | and then love the result.

01:26:18.360 | The hard work, the journey is actually way more important

01:26:22.760 | than just getting something.

01:26:23.960 | Everybody wants to go on Amazon, I got a package,

01:26:26.320 | then you feel good for 10 seconds

01:26:27.800 | and all right, let's go on Amazon again.

01:26:29.800 | And then it's just a dumb cycle

01:26:31.760 | of you being disgusting and gluttonous.

01:26:35.520 | So work for it.

01:26:36.960 | Everybody wants to take steroids and just, I'm buff.

01:26:39.920 | Why'd you point at me?

01:26:40.840 | Well, I'm just saying.

01:26:41.680 | 'Cause I'm Russian or what?

01:26:42.520 | Well, I saw the Icarus.

01:26:45.560 | But no, I'm not saying you're on Roids,

01:26:47.320 | I'm just, you'd be way bigger.

01:26:48.800 | But I'm just saying, work for something

01:26:52.520 | and then I would also, young people, eat shit early.

01:26:56.560 | Eat shit early.

01:26:57.800 | I know a guy who kind of got canceled or whatever

01:27:00.760 | and he had an out early, but he tried to get by

01:27:03.320 | and he tried to ride it and it all came crumbling down.

01:27:07.200 | But if he had eaten it early, like yeah, I fucked up,

01:27:09.400 | I did that, whatever it was,

01:27:12.360 | he would have just kind of been shit on for a month

01:27:16.480 | and then it would have gone away.

01:27:17.520 | But now it's his whole identity and that sucks.

01:27:19.920 | So eat shit early and I know it's hard to see.

01:27:22.200 | What do you mean early?

01:27:23.240 | I'm in the present.

01:27:24.520 | But look ahead, look back, this time will pass.

01:27:28.240 | I mean, look at high school.

01:27:29.620 | High school was the biggest thing in our lives.

01:27:31.280 | Oh my God, this exam, Susie Q hates me,

01:27:33.920 | the football player beat me up, oh, I'll never recover.

01:27:36.600 | Now you don't even think about high school,

01:27:37.680 | it's just a blip in your dumb life.

01:27:39.440 | And that's what this is now, this will just be a blip.

01:27:42.520 | So remember that and work towards something

01:27:46.160 | and work hard and care about the result.

01:27:50.480 | If the result isn't good, try it again

01:27:52.160 | and failure is not always bad.

01:27:53.800 | Failure, we look at failure as this end all, be all.

01:27:56.680 | My life's over, I failed.

01:27:58.840 | But failure is really just learning.

01:28:01.080 | So that's something.

01:28:01.920 | - So in summary, eat shit early and eat shit often.

01:28:06.680 | - Yes.

01:28:07.800 | - All right, Mark Norman.

01:28:09.840 | - Eat ass.

01:28:10.960 | - That's escalated quickly.

01:28:13.080 | All right, I have a list of random questions for you.

01:28:16.020 | What activities make you lose track of time?

01:28:19.520 | - Ooh.

01:28:21.920 | - Have that, go into that zone.

01:28:24.280 | You have this happiness, contentment about you

01:28:26.960 | that you just truly enjoy.

01:28:28.820 | - Yeah, I think a good conversation,

01:28:31.240 | like I'll sit at the comedy cellar with friends,

01:28:34.360 | maybe a little whiskey's flowing.

01:28:36.700 | And when you're really just vibing and inhib, inhib,

01:28:40.040 | in, in a biddy?

01:28:41.680 | - You can do it.

01:28:42.520 | - What is it?

01:28:43.360 | Inhibited. - Inhibition.

01:28:44.200 | Inhibited. - Uninhibited.

01:28:45.400 | - Uninhibited.

01:28:46.240 | - When you're just vibing and you're uninhibited

01:28:47.560 | and you're saying crazy shit and you're laughing

01:28:49.520 | and you're not worried, am I seeming cool right now?

01:28:51.480 | Am I seeming likable?

01:28:52.840 | When you're just you, 100%, and it's all coming out of you,

01:28:56.040 | and then they're saying stuff and you go back and forth

01:28:58.080 | and you feel that excitement.

01:28:59.280 | Oh, they're talking, but I wanna say my thing.

01:29:00.840 | And you know, you get all keyed up.

01:29:02.600 | I love that.

01:29:03.440 | And I look at my watch, I'm like,

01:29:04.520 | fuck, it's three in the morning.

01:29:06.000 | We've been talking for five hours.

01:29:07.760 | So I love that.

01:29:09.080 | That makes the time fly by.

01:29:10.860 | Also, I bought a, speaking of self-driving cars,

01:29:13.360 | I bought a 1973 BMW car,

01:29:17.700 | and it's classic and it's stick shift

01:29:19.840 | and it's grizzly and gritty and rusty,

01:29:24.160 | and it's a bucket of bolts, but I love driving it.

01:29:26.520 | - Bucket of bolts.

01:29:27.800 | - Yeah. - You and Tom Waits

01:29:28.880 | are poets.

01:29:29.840 | - Have you taken a long trip anywhere,

01:29:32.400 | like road trip in your life or with this BMW?

01:29:35.960 | - Not with it, it's pretty new, but I will.

01:29:38.400 | - It's a new 1973.

01:29:39.760 | - Yeah, it's new to me.

01:29:42.040 | And it just, it goes in the face

01:29:44.480 | of everything we're doing now.

01:29:45.520 | Everything is digital, everything is automated,

01:29:47.160 | everything is hands-off, everything is delivered.

01:29:50.000 | And this is the most hands-on thing in the world.

01:29:52.720 | And I am dialed in, man.

01:29:54.160 | I got the tachometer, I keep an eye on that.

01:29:56.320 | Oh, I put the wrong gear in, shit.

01:29:58.440 | Oh, it's about to stall, put some gas, put some clutch.

01:30:00.940 | And it's all just brain power

01:30:04.320 | and staying in focus and all that.

01:30:06.780 | And it's the opposite of tweeting and texting

01:30:09.500 | and watching porn or whatever.

01:30:11.840 | So I almost needed that in my life,

01:30:14.160 | so I bought this car just to have this little exercise.

01:30:17.840 | - I hope you don't mind that I'm just trying out

01:30:21.080 | random questions I wrote on you that are completely,

01:30:24.080 | they're like completely insane.

01:30:25.800 | - I'm a guinea pig, jizz in my face.

01:30:27.720 | Bring it on, baby.

01:30:29.080 | - This would be edited down to five minutes.

01:30:32.520 | If everyone on earth disappeared and it was just you left,

01:30:36.920 | what would your days look like?

01:30:39.640 | What would you do?

01:30:40.740 | - That's tough, 'cause I'm already an introvert

01:30:43.480 | and I try to avoid people mostly.

01:30:45.520 | Like I like a one-on-one,

01:30:47.240 | but crowds and all that is tough.

01:30:50.520 | So- - So basically unchanged?

01:30:52.600 | - Yeah, that's what I was gonna say,

01:30:53.920 | but then that's the irony is I would be so sad

01:30:56.320 | to not talk to anybody.

01:30:57.240 | So it's this weird, bittersweet thing,

01:30:59.760 | but I don't know what I would do, man.

01:31:01.980 | I guess it's kind of like when you're hung over,

01:31:04.000 | you just go into the primal survival mode.

01:31:07.380 | I gotta get food, I need water, I'm horny, jerk off.

01:31:12.400 | You just go, you're not like playing the piano

01:31:15.040 | or painting or at the gym.

01:31:17.840 | So I think I would just go into urges, man, primal urges.

01:31:21.360 | Find food, store food.

01:31:24.100 | Am I safe?

01:31:24.940 | Make weapons, build a shelter that I can't get attacked in.

01:31:28.840 | I would go all survival mode.

01:31:30.360 | And then once I maybe realized if I was safe or not,

01:31:33.240 | there's no wild roaming dogs, I would start exploring

01:31:37.080 | and maybe somehow get a vehicle and I would try to expand

01:31:42.120 | and that would be it.

01:31:43.880 | And maybe I'd journal.

01:31:45.200 | - Exploring to what, to try to find new experiences?

01:31:49.280 | - New life, if there's other,

01:31:51.320 | maybe there is another guy out there.

01:31:53.160 | - Oh, so always there's a possibility.

01:31:55.720 | - Yeah, hope.

01:31:56.840 | And then maybe there's a better place I could live.

01:31:58.920 | Let's find that and then moving on.

01:32:01.080 | Maybe there's more food over here.

01:32:02.140 | So yeah, the hope would drive me.

01:32:04.480 | But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also.

01:32:07.200 | - So what you're saying is you really want other people

01:32:09.820 | to be there so you can hide from them.

01:32:11.760 | - Yes, yes, well said.

01:32:15.000 | - All right, what's an item on your bucket list

01:32:17.840 | that you haven't done yet?

01:32:19.200 | Think about something you'd be very upset if you died

01:32:23.600 | and you haven't done.

01:32:24.720 | - Well, I'm terrified of having kids,

01:32:27.240 | just 'cause I'm a child myself

01:32:28.760 | and I'm selfish and lazy in a way.

01:32:31.880 | So kids are like, this is your whole life now, this is it.

01:32:34.560 | You gotta not let this thing die.

01:32:35.880 | You gotta love it, you gotta raise it.

01:32:37.940 | So kids scare the shit out of me,

01:32:39.480 | but I also feel like if I don't have them,

01:32:41.080 | I'll regret it.

01:32:43.840 | - Well, you've seen so many people like you

01:32:46.840 | who are fundamentally changed by kids.

01:32:48.960 | Like it's a source of, like a deep source of happiness,

01:32:53.960 | even though you didn't anticipate it.

01:32:55.880 | - Yeah.

01:32:57.280 | - So you penciled it into your bucket list.

01:32:59.800 | - Yes, yes.

01:33:01.840 | - It might be on there, okay.

01:33:03.640 | - You want kids?

01:33:04.480 | - Yeah, well, I want kids, I wanna get married,

01:33:08.180 | I wanna have kids.

01:33:10.240 | I kinda, I don't like choice, so in the following way,

01:33:15.240 | like I appreciate the value of scarcity

01:33:18.480 | and the power of scarcity.

01:33:19.520 | Like I don't like the modern dating culture.

01:33:22.120 | It's not some religious thing or whatever.

01:33:23.600 | I just like one girl for a long time,

01:33:27.200 | or at least swinging for that always,

01:33:28.640 | like swinging for the fences.

01:33:30.160 | - But you could be swinging right now.

01:33:31.720 | I mean, you're--

01:33:32.560 | - That's a different use of the word swinging.

01:33:34.000 | - Sure, sure.

01:33:34.840 | But I'm saying, you could be, you look great,

01:33:36.680 | you're handsome, muscular. - Yeah, thank you.

01:33:38.960 | Thank you.

01:33:39.800 | - You got a good job done, so I feel like

01:33:40.760 | you wouldn't leave without an orgasm on her.

01:33:42.640 | - Yeah, but I just like to, you know, I bought furries.

01:33:45.480 | I like to dress up as animals,

01:33:47.480 | and I just have trouble finding others who like the same.

01:33:50.040 | - Ah, they're up there.

01:33:50.880 | I could show you some chat rooms.

01:33:52.320 | - You're also my coach for the internet, okay.

01:33:54.620 | What are you most afraid of?

01:33:58.040 | - I guess on unlived life,

01:34:01.960 | I'm always a big fan growing up of like wild guys,

01:34:07.620 | you know, like these Teddy Roosevelt's

01:34:09.600 | who would go out and hunt lions,

01:34:11.240 | and like bar fighting guys.

01:34:14.560 | I was obsessed with Hunter S. Thompson types.

01:34:17.560 | And look, this is what I love about guys like,

01:34:21.960 | who's a good example?

01:34:23.580 | Like Hemingway.

01:34:24.760 | Hemingway was the manliest guy.

01:34:26.400 | He had the rifle, and the elephant gun, and the whiskey,

01:34:28.860 | and the writing, and the women, and the fist fights.

01:34:31.700 | But people forget that the other side of that coin

01:34:33.960 | is I'm sure he was in a lot of hotel rooms weeping.

01:34:36.260 | I'm sure he was lonely as fuck.

01:34:37.800 | I'm sure he had some wicked hangovers.

01:34:39.360 | I mean, he killed himself for Christ's sake.

01:34:40.720 | So obviously he was dealing with something.

01:34:42.960 | So the key to me is having this adventurous life,

01:34:46.760 | living to the fullest, doing crazy shit,

01:34:49.020 | scaring yourself, but also not killing yourself.

01:34:52.560 | Like also not hating, 'cause I used to party a lot hard.

01:34:56.160 | I used to bang a lot of gals.

01:34:58.840 | And the flip side is like, this girl hates you now,

01:35:02.320 | or you got herpes, or you're hungover,

01:35:04.880 | or your mom is like, where are you?

01:35:06.520 | You never call me anymore.

01:35:07.520 | You're like, oh, my mom, I let Ty's go with my mom.

01:35:10.880 | I gotta connect.

01:35:11.840 | So there's a horrible side to the party animal.

01:35:14.720 | The Keith Richards we don't see is not pretty.

01:35:18.440 | I mean, he's already weird looking,

01:35:20.160 | but he's partying, he's smoking, he's living.

01:35:23.140 | But there's another side of that coin.

01:35:25.340 | And I think the key to life is living that fucking crazy,

01:35:28.680 | awesome, badass life, and also having some meaning

01:35:34.880 | and a little bit of, what's the word?

01:35:38.360 | Not just not killing yourself, not going sad,

01:35:40.880 | not being depressed.

01:35:42.160 | There's a medium there, a sweet spot.

01:35:44.160 | Does that make sense?

01:35:45.960 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:46.800 | So taking big leaps and Hemingway grabbing life by the balls

01:35:51.800 | but at the same time not crushing the balls.

01:35:54.800 | Does that metaphor work at all?

01:35:56.640 | Perfect, like Evel Knievel, we all know him.

01:35:59.280 | What a badass, fearless, oh man, what a cool dude.

01:36:02.360 | He's got balls of steel, but he also lived

01:36:04.920 | the back half of his life in a fucking Barca lounger

01:36:08.760 | where his legs were made of steel

01:36:10.240 | and he couldn't see straight and his dick didn't work.

01:36:13.200 | So you know what I mean?

01:36:15.580 | You gotta have a balance, but you still want the balance.

01:36:18.180 | I'm willing to take a little bit of shit

01:36:20.920 | for a little bit of fun, but you don't wanna go too hard.

01:36:25.920 | You gotta still risk it.

01:36:27.160 | I mean, Hunter S. Thompson, it didn't end well.

01:36:30.440 | Yeah.

01:36:31.280 | It was quite a ride.

01:36:32.240 | Quite a ride.

01:36:33.320 | What small act of kindness were you once shown

01:36:36.920 | that you will never forget?

01:36:38.280 | Wow, that's a great question.

01:36:41.480 | I just wrote these for the guinea pig.

01:36:45.040 | You're the guinea pig.

01:36:45.880 | That's great, that's a keeper.

01:36:47.080 | Okay, that's a keeper?

01:36:48.160 | Yeah.

01:36:49.000 | This is where we're like workshopping questions here.

01:36:50.280 | All right, I'll take it.

01:36:51.400 | Now you're open biking.

01:36:52.520 | Yeah.

01:36:53.360 | This is your version.

01:36:54.200 | Let's see, there's a couple of ladies in high school

01:36:57.600 | who were kind enough to hand job me.

01:36:59.960 | That was nice, which I really appreciate.

01:37:01.760 | I don't think women know how much that means to us.

01:37:04.600 | You know, women are like, "Oh, I'm not a piece of meat,"

01:37:06.360 | or whatever, and you're like, "I know,

01:37:07.440 | "but if you'd just give me a hand job,

01:37:10.000 | "it would make my world."

01:37:10.880 | It's like telling a kid he's smart or loved.

01:37:13.560 | See, most people mention a math teacher in middle school

01:37:16.440 | that inspired them to get into science.

01:37:19.000 | Give a shout out to the--

01:37:21.240 | Well, that's part of it.

01:37:22.520 | That's not the nicest,

01:37:23.360 | but I'm just saying that goes a long way.

01:37:25.200 | All right.

01:37:26.160 | Let's see, kindness.

01:37:27.720 | That's a great question.

01:37:30.240 | Ah, I wanna give you a good answer.

01:37:32.240 | I got lost when I was like six.

01:37:35.000 | I was walking around my dad,

01:37:36.720 | and I zoned out and went away.

01:37:38.640 | And next thing you know, I don't know where I am.

01:37:41.440 | I'm in a neighborhood.

01:37:42.320 | This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere,

01:37:45.880 | and he goes, "Come inside,"

01:37:47.840 | and he tried to call my parents, and nothing came of it.

01:37:50.840 | Eventually, they found me.

01:37:52.640 | After like nine hours, cops were there,

01:37:54.560 | the FBI's out there, fucking helicopters.

01:37:57.920 | And I guess that's nice.

01:37:59.160 | This old guy took me in for a couple hours

01:38:01.280 | and just sat me down and kept me safe.

01:38:05.240 | That's something.

01:38:06.120 | Yeah.

01:38:06.960 | Oh, how about Enos, my transvestite nanny?

01:38:10.360 | Very kind.

01:38:12.320 | He, did you hear about this?

01:38:15.360 | No.

01:38:16.200 | Okay, we had this transvestite nanny

01:38:17.960 | who was like a drag queen,

01:38:19.200 | but it was in the '90s, so it was weird.

01:38:20.680 | It was new.

01:38:21.840 | And my bike got stolen, and he,

01:38:25.440 | you know, my parents were like,

01:38:26.280 | "Eh, what are you gonna do?

01:38:27.120 | "You're poor kids," you know?

01:38:28.760 | And he was like, "Fuck it, we're gonna go get that bike."

01:38:31.160 | And I was like, "This guy's in a wig and high heels.

01:38:33.760 | "Big black guy."

01:38:35.000 | And I'm like, "Ah, what are you gonna do?

01:38:38.120 | "You know, it's gone."

01:38:39.040 | And he's like, "No, we're gonna go get it."

01:38:40.360 | So we got in the van and drove around my neighborhood,

01:38:44.040 | saw the kids, fucking with the bike, you know,

01:38:46.240 | five street toughs, and he goes,

01:38:49.200 | "All right, you wanna come out, or should I just do this?"

01:38:52.040 | And I was like, "You do it, I'm terrified.

01:38:53.640 | "What are you, crazy?"

01:38:55.000 | And he got out of the van in full, you know, heels and wig,

01:38:59.920 | and he went up to these guys, and they went off.

01:39:01.840 | "Oh my God, look at this fucking guy, homo, faggot,"

01:39:04.520 | all this shit, you know, it's the '90s.

01:39:06.520 | And he just stared at 'em long enough

01:39:09.560 | to where they were kinda like,

01:39:10.520 | "All right, well, I guess we're gonna fight you now."

01:39:12.640 | And he goes, "That's not your bike."

01:39:14.880 | And they go, "What are you gonna do about it?"

01:39:16.520 | And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike,

01:39:18.760 | and they didn't do anything, and he just picked it up

01:39:21.280 | and said, "That's what I thought."

01:39:22.440 | Put the bike over his shoulder,

01:39:23.880 | slid the van door open, threw the bike in, and we drove off.

01:39:27.120 | - Somebody stuck up for you.

01:39:29.560 | - Yeah, and he coulda got, I mean, they had tools.

01:39:33.040 | They coulda fucking tuned him up, two seconds.

01:39:35.820 | - That actually takes courage.

01:39:38.960 | - Oh yeah, real courage.

01:39:41.200 | - And then the reason you do and act like that

01:39:45.040 | is that makes a kid like you feel like

01:39:48.760 | there's somebody on your side.

01:39:50.040 | That's powerful. - Yes.

01:39:51.200 | Someone on your side is big.

01:39:52.760 | - Is big.

01:39:53.600 | - That goes a long way,

01:39:54.880 | especially when they have the risk

01:39:57.840 | of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away

01:40:00.080 | or whatever it is.

01:40:01.020 | - Now we're gonna get philosophical,

01:40:05.400 | maybe a little bit emotional.

01:40:07.540 | Would you rather lose all your old memories

01:40:12.680 | or never be able to make new ones?

01:40:15.080 | - It's a tough one, but I'd go easy answer, make new ones.

01:40:22.840 | - But don't you think all the shitty things

01:40:24.600 | that happened to you--

01:40:25.960 | - Oh, so my hard drive is wiped clean.

01:40:27.840 | Is it memories or is it how every memory affected me too?

01:40:34.320 | - I mean, this is a very--

01:40:35.760 | - Or do they go hand in hand?

01:40:36.840 | - I think the reality about memories

01:40:39.400 | is you replay them often.

01:40:40.760 | You go back to them, even when you're not aware of it.

01:40:43.560 | You really go back often.

01:40:45.480 | - And they change.

01:40:47.600 | You change 'em too.

01:40:48.420 | - Yeah, you change them to suit

01:40:50.460 | your understanding of the world.

01:40:52.040 | - Yes.

01:40:52.880 | - The dark you you have, both the hope

01:40:58.280 | and the cynicism you have about the world

01:40:59.880 | is so deeply grounded in the memories

01:41:04.360 | that you're basically, I would say,

01:41:05.800 | if you erase all memories,

01:41:07.440 | I think you're really starting over

01:41:10.840 | with maybe the wisdom of how the world works,

01:41:14.800 | but not so much your personality is gone.

01:41:18.440 | You would really,

01:41:21.880 | it'd be interesting how your comedy would change.

01:41:23.840 | Maybe you would have a good sense of timing.

01:41:25.520 | You would have a good sense of the writing process maybe.

01:41:30.520 | But like--

01:41:33.240 | - Now you're making some good points,

01:41:34.440 | but let me ask you this.

01:41:35.280 | Let's say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend.

01:41:37.800 | Now, I wipe the memory, or I keep my old memories.

01:41:43.020 | Let's say I go to the Tuscany with the lady.

01:41:45.640 | I just won't remember that?

01:41:48.080 | - Yeah, but you get to experience it in the moment.

01:41:50.080 | - Okay.

01:41:50.920 | - You get to enjoy it.

01:41:51.740 | - And I look at a photo of it?

01:41:53.200 | - Yes.

01:41:55.840 | - But I was like, what the hell is this?

01:41:56.880 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:41:57.720 | - Oh, fascinating.

01:41:59.960 | - It's exact, the rules are pretty simple.

01:42:01.960 | - Yeah.

01:42:02.800 | - I think everyone knows how the rules go.

01:42:04.320 | So you would, yeah, so what--

01:42:06.640 | - Well, I was gonna say start new ones,

01:42:08.540 | but then I realized I wouldn't be who I was without them.

01:42:11.360 | That's what you're saying.

01:42:12.200 | So I guess I'd keep 'em.

01:42:14.040 | 'Cause I am 38, so I've gotten a good chunk out of life.

01:42:17.800 | - Yeah, and let's be honest, how many years do you have left?

01:42:20.960 | - I know, right?

01:42:21.800 | I got AIDS.

01:42:22.620 | - Is it better to have loved,

01:42:25.420 | okay, this question is ridiculous.

01:42:26.940 | Is it better to have loved and lost

01:42:29.140 | or to have never loved at all?

01:42:31.320 | It sounds cliche, but there's a question.

01:42:34.540 | - Definitely better to loss.

01:42:36.740 | - So you enjoy the ups and downs.

01:42:38.420 | - Yeah, that's life.

01:42:39.920 | Sun and rain, baby.

01:42:42.280 | - I kinda like both, the whole thing.

01:42:45.660 | The loss, every time you lose something,

01:42:49.100 | it really makes you distinctly realize

01:42:52.760 | how much you valued it.

01:42:54.220 | - Yes.

01:42:55.060 | - Like in my, when I'm sad,

01:42:57.540 | like when I'm feeling alone

01:43:00.340 | and I'm sitting there alone at home

01:43:03.220 | and I wish I could hang out with somebody,

01:43:06.700 | that's like a realization how awesome people are.

01:43:10.540 | - Yeah.

01:43:11.660 | - So it's like the missing, the, yeah.

01:43:15.540 | - We don't have a lot of that in life anymore

01:43:17.300 | because we can have anything we want immediately.

01:43:19.340 | So the missing has gone away,

01:43:20.720 | which again drives down the joy of having it.

01:43:25.280 | So I think you're right, you need both.

01:43:28.480 | - So like you said, you have a condition

01:43:31.180 | that a terminal condition, not many years left.

01:43:34.340 | Do you think about your mortality?

01:43:35.700 | You think about that?

01:43:36.540 | - Oh, all day, every day.

01:43:38.740 | - Are you afraid?

01:43:39.580 | - Not afraid 'cause it's inevitable.

01:43:42.400 | So it's more like, how are we gonna handle this?

01:43:46.620 | It's like the winter is coming,

01:43:47.740 | let's stock up on some fucking nuts.

01:43:50.260 | - But the existential nature of it,

01:43:51.660 | like the fact that this ride ends,

01:43:53.500 | like what the hell are you doing any of this for?

01:43:55.460 | Like 'cause it--

01:43:56.300 | - Satisfaction, happiness.

01:43:58.540 | - Short term, but like there is a presumption there

01:44:02.480 | that it kind of goes on forever.

01:44:04.360 | I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends--

01:44:07.380 | - Your brain almost shuts it down.

01:44:10.780 | - Yeah, there's some kind of like protective

01:44:12.500 | like switch that just goes off.

01:44:15.380 | I mean, that's why the Stoics, you know,

01:44:18.500 | encourage people to meditate on death

01:44:20.660 | 'cause it somehow reorganizes your priorities.

01:44:24.100 | It helps you like, holy shit,

01:44:26.220 | this ends, make the most of the day.

01:44:28.340 | - Yes.

01:44:29.180 | - It's just a nice thing,

01:44:30.000 | but still you can't quite comprehend that the thing ends.

01:44:33.200 | - Little things too, you know, people go like,

01:44:36.100 | oh, we got a layover between our flights,

01:44:38.660 | it's an hour, what are we gonna do for an hour?

01:44:40.420 | It's like, what do you mean, what are you gonna do

01:44:41.860 | for an hour?

01:44:42.700 | You're gonna kill an hour.

01:44:44.260 | How are we gonna kill this hour?

01:44:46.380 | This is part of your life.

01:44:47.420 | You're just trying to get rid of it,

01:44:48.260 | you're just trying to kill it.

01:44:49.180 | That always blew my mind.

01:44:50.220 | Like, hey, fuck it, let's hit the airport bar.

01:44:52.860 | Let's get a candy bar or something.

01:44:55.900 | Anything with bar.

01:44:57.180 | But it's just, you gotta live.

01:45:00.500 | I hate this, like, how are we gonna burn,

01:45:01.980 | oh, the bar didn't open for 15 minutes.

01:45:04.220 | What are we gonna do?

01:45:05.040 | Well, we got 15 minutes.

01:45:06.020 | We got the world is our oyster.

01:45:07.620 | - Yeah, make the most of it.

01:45:09.220 | And like you said, in modern day,

01:45:11.900 | actually the boredom is a gift.

01:45:13.780 | Like, when you're waiting for something,

01:45:16.540 | that's a gift.

01:45:18.500 | You get to be with your thoughts.

01:45:20.460 | - Yeah.

01:45:21.380 | - Those are the same thoughts you'll have

01:45:22.780 | when you're on your deathbed.

01:45:24.420 | There won't be a,

01:45:25.800 | you won't be scrolling TikTok on your deathbed.

01:45:29.740 | - I hope not, Jesus.

01:45:30.820 | - You'd be a lot more, actually, maybe you would be.

01:45:33.220 | - What a sad existence.

01:45:34.220 | - 'Cause it would be a good,

01:45:35.940 | like, content creators would be like,

01:45:37.500 | ooh, I'm dying, this would be good content.

01:45:39.180 | (laughing)

01:45:40.620 | - Yeah, I wanna be able to film the exact moment it goes,

01:45:43.580 | beeep.

01:45:44.620 | - Like, last words, I wonder what my last words will be.

01:45:46.420 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:45:47.260 | - It's a good way to end the account with a bang.

01:45:50.900 | - Yep, I like that.

01:45:52.340 | Well, you know, have you ever seen that meme

01:45:53.580 | where the old guy in bed, he goes,

01:45:54.660 | I wish I had tweeted more, you know, and then he dies.

01:45:58.480 | It's so true.

01:45:59.460 | - Could be the future.

01:46:00.660 | What do you think is the meaning of life?

01:46:02.700 | - I don't think there is one.

01:46:06.060 | Everybody always throws that out there.

01:46:07.820 | There isn't a meaning.

01:46:08.660 | I think we're here, we're lucky to be here.

01:46:11.100 | I think there's no afterlife, there's no heaven.

01:46:13.060 | That's all shit we tell ourselves to feel better.

01:46:16.060 | And I think you gotta just, it's like saying,

01:46:18.540 | what is the meaning of this food I made?

01:46:23.300 | Well, it's just, you enjoy the food,

01:46:25.100 | you try to get the most out of it.

01:46:26.540 | You built the food, you prepared it.

01:46:30.060 | So just get what you can out of it.

01:46:33.420 | Don't die.

01:46:35.260 | And try to make it last as long as possible.

01:46:38.580 | - Yeah, but you look at Earth.

01:46:39.860 | It's like four billion years old.

01:46:42.500 | And life started early on, like simple cell bacteria life,

01:46:47.500 | like one billion years in.

01:46:49.860 | And then it started like having lots

01:46:51.860 | of aggressive interaction.

01:46:54.860 | Eventually there's predator and prey,

01:46:56.500 | and then there's sex, lots of sex, lots of sex.

01:46:59.300 | Lots of violence.

01:47:00.260 | - Oh yeah.

01:47:01.460 | - And then, you know, through natural selection,

01:47:03.780 | there's just a whole evolutionary process

01:47:06.500 | of animals that have loved and lost

01:47:09.180 | and murdered and gotten murdered

01:47:11.220 | and all that kind of stuff.

01:47:12.060 | And it's somehow led to human civilization.

01:47:14.380 | We're super busy trying to create things

01:47:17.140 | and creating beautiful art, creating beautiful comedy.

01:47:20.260 | - Yeah.

01:47:21.460 | - Just always creating something new.

01:47:23.660 | It feels like it's tending towards something.

01:47:26.420 | - It's not dying.

01:47:28.580 | If you die tomorrow, you still have all these hours of pots.

01:47:31.780 | So it's kind of, you think you're cheating death

01:47:33.660 | in a subconscious way, I think.

01:47:35.700 | - Right.

01:47:36.540 | You know who Ernest Becker is?

01:47:38.580 | - I've heard the name.

01:47:39.680 | - It's a book called "The Now of Death."

01:47:42.060 | This idea that if you don't acknowledge--

01:47:46.300 | - Book's on my shelf.

01:47:47.300 | - Girls love it.

01:47:49.460 | - Really? - Like Dostoevsky.

01:47:51.140 | No, I'm just saying.

01:47:53.380 | You wanna bring Tolstoy, Dostoevsky.

01:47:54.980 | Russian literature, back to Norm.

01:47:57.140 | It's good to bring to, 'cause no American

01:48:01.140 | has read any Russian literature,

01:48:02.400 | but they all appreciate it if you bring it.

01:48:04.580 | And it's not like they're gonna ask you

01:48:05.860 | any legitimate questions, 'cause they haven't read it.

01:48:08.020 | So you can always pretend like you've read it.

01:48:09.660 | So it's a--

01:48:10.500 | - It's a little dense.

01:48:12.280 | Can we get a shortened version?

01:48:14.340 | - Cliff Notes.

01:48:15.180 | - Yes, or make a movie with Ben Stiller

01:48:18.340 | that I can just go, oh, this is based on,

01:48:21.300 | what is it, "Life and Death"?

01:48:23.260 | No, what's the one?

01:48:24.100 | "War and Peace."

01:48:24.920 | - "War and Peace."

01:48:25.760 | Yeah, so Ernest Becker's theory,

01:48:28.740 | and there's this whole terror management theory

01:48:31.180 | that basically says that our terror of death,

01:48:34.500 | our fear of death is one of the central creative forces

01:48:39.060 | of the human condition.

01:48:40.300 | It's the reason we're trying to, yeah, cheat death.

01:48:43.260 | We're trying to delude ourself

01:48:44.900 | that somehow we can become immortal through our art.

01:48:47.540 | It's why you've uploaded your special to YouTube,

01:48:49.700 | 'cause you think your special will outlive

01:48:53.260 | all of human civilization.

01:48:54.580 | You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization.

01:48:57.340 | - That could go away tomorrow.

01:48:58.580 | - That can go away tomorrow.

01:49:00.260 | All of this can go away, so I'm truly grateful,

01:49:04.340 | Mr. Mark Norman, that you would spend

01:49:06.840 | your very valuable time with me today,

01:49:09.040 | even though it could all go away.

01:49:10.500 | This could be the last day of our lives,

01:49:12.500 | and won't you be quite upset this is how you spent it?

01:49:16.300 | - Ah, yeah, in your hotel room, what am I?

01:49:18.860 | You're like Harvey Weinstein here.

01:49:20.180 | You heard me up, and now I feel fucked.

01:49:22.660 | (laughing)

01:49:23.500 | - Just wait what we have ready for you

01:49:26.060 | after the podcast is over.

01:49:27.460 | (laughing)

01:49:28.300 | All right, brother, thanks so much for talking today.

01:49:29.820 | - Thank you, it was great, comedy.

01:49:32.080 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:49:34.940 | with Mark Norman.

01:49:36.100 | To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors

01:49:38.500 | in the description.

01:49:39.740 | And now, let me leave you with some words

01:49:41.740 | from Mark Norman himself on his Twitter,

01:49:44.660 | which you should definitely follow because it's hilarious.

01:49:47.860 | The worst thing about getting Omicron for Christmas

01:49:51.340 | is you know it was regifted.

01:49:53.360 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

01:49:58.260 | (upbeat music)

01:50:00.840 | (upbeat music)

01:50:03.420 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Mark Normand: Comedy! | Lex Fridman Podcast #255

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