Why_FIRE_is_becoming_obsolete
00:00:00.000 | Hello everybody, it's Sam and Sydney from Financial Samurai and in this episode we want to talk about why early retirement or fire is becoming obsolete
00:00:07.920 | And also I wanted to get some perspective about early retirement from you Sydney from a female's perspective
00:00:14.380 | Hopefully you listened to our previous podcast episode where we talked about the greatest benefit of retiring early
00:00:21.540 | Which is greater happiness for longer and higher peak levels of happiness
00:00:26.100 | But I'm sure some of you might have listened or read the post and thought well gee that's nice
00:00:30.940 | Of course, I want to retire early and you know experience more happiness, but I can't well the good news
00:00:37.220 | The good news is you don't have to actually retire early or early to feel this happiness
00:00:44.300 | Since I kick-started the modern-day fire movement in 2009
00:00:48.260 | I've noticed many changes in the past
00:00:51.940 | The goal was to simply generate enough passive income to cover your living expenses, but that's hard
00:00:57.400 | It took me I would say what since 1999 to 2012
00:01:02.380 | Yeah 13 years to get to a basic level of financial independence
00:01:06.140 | And then another five years after that to earn enough to provide for a family and not stress too much
00:01:11.340 | however
00:01:13.220 | Since 2009 we've had new terms come up right barista fire is one of them
00:01:17.900 | I think it's a smart solution where you work like a part-time job to get health care benefits and supplemental income
00:01:23.300 | To help you in retirement
00:01:25.820 | I was thinking about going back to Hawaii and instead of working at Starbucks because I don't drink coffee to go to
00:01:30.980 | Coldstone Creamery, you know on the strip in Waikiki. I can eat all the ice cream
00:01:35.500 | I wanted maybe cake to probably not really healthy, but they provided health care insurance
00:01:40.700 | Which is huge for any retiree retiree and then a new term popped up called coast fire
00:01:47.100 | Coast fire emerged for those who are still working day jobs, but wanted to feel good about the amount of retirement savings
00:01:54.100 | They already had but it's just weird because coast fire is like, okay
00:01:57.860 | What's the difference between coast fire and a person working a job and then saving for retirement?
00:02:03.500 | It's kind of like well here. Here's a trophy your fire. I'm fire
00:02:07.940 | Everybody's fire
00:02:08.620 | Everybody gets a car like Oprah Winfrey said the reality is coast fire is an illusion just to help make you feel better
00:02:15.220 | About your progress but post pandemic I think early retirement and fire is becoming obsolete
00:02:21.580 | Simply because more and more people are able to work from home
00:02:26.820 | And when you get to work from home, you have way more flexibility
00:02:31.100 | And I know you know
00:02:32.900 | We live in San Francisco
00:02:34.100 | And there are a lot of tech jobs that enable people to work from home
00:02:37.620 | To play while they work from home run errands while they work from home
00:02:41.700 | send their kids and pick them up their kids up early because they're working from home and some people have
00:02:47.220 | Criticized this idea because not everybody can work from home and I totally understand that but you did some research Sydney and
00:02:54.500 | What did you find out just in a quick search?
00:02:58.660 | I found some studies that were highlighted on Forbes
00:03:01.580 | So roughly about 25% of jobs now in the US are being done remotely
00:03:09.060 | But there was a separate study that estimates that about
00:03:12.420 | 40% could be done remotely. So there actually is still room for growth in that but that's gonna ultimately depend on each individual
00:03:21.340 | employers policies and
00:03:23.860 | The employees themselves ultimately some actually prefer to work in the office, but it just depends. There's a lot of variables
00:03:31.580 | Well, the point of that statistic is 25% are
00:03:35.300 | Working from home but up to 40% can work from home. So that is a becoming that is a trend line that we should foresee
00:03:42.380 | And which is why I'm saying
00:03:44.900 | Fire is becoming obsolete. I'm not saying it's obsolete right now
00:03:48.980 | Everybody wants to achieve financial independence no matter what job you're doing, but the trend is towards
00:03:54.360 | Obsolescence and here's the thing folks since I haven't had a traditional day job since 2012
00:04:00.500 | I've been experienced what real-time in real life early retirement is like
00:04:05.680 | So I've been going to the tennis courts in the middle of the day and now to the pickleball courts
00:04:10.740 | And I've been talking to people who are also
00:04:12.820 | retired early or who are also working from home and not really working but playing and
00:04:17.740 | Recently over the past three months. I've gotten to know many many pickleball players on the courts between 10 a.m
00:04:24.940 | And 3 p.m. Between Monday and Friday. I would say
00:04:30.060 | 65 70% of them are over 60 traditional retirees, which leaves 30
00:04:34.580 | 35 percent of them as 20s to 40s 30s 40s 50 year olds who have a lot of free time because they're working from home
00:04:42.320 | And I ran into this one person who we played from
00:04:47.660 | 10 30 to 1 30. She's a single mom, right?
00:04:51.500 | She's an educator at a San Francisco private school
00:04:54.340 | And she was able to have three hours of fun activity and then go teach for five hours in the afternoon
00:05:00.540 | And so if you think about it, you're a single mom in supposedly expensive, San Francisco and you can make it work
00:05:06.980 | Why would you ever want to retire?
00:05:08.820 | Because you've got the best of both worlds and then I met another girl. She's 26 years old works at Google
00:05:14.180 | She also played from about 10 30 to 1 30 p.m. And
00:05:19.980 | She was working she said yeah, I just code at night and my boss really doesn't care
00:05:24.300 | So long as I get things done and that sounds great. I talked to one of our son's
00:05:28.420 | Best friends father who works at Google and he said yeah, I don't care
00:05:32.740 | I don't care if she you know
00:05:35.660 | Go plays pickleball for three hours a day or goes hiking or whatever so long as she gets her work done
00:05:41.500 | That's all that really matters. And so this trend, you know, it's in tech, right?
00:05:47.340 | but I think it can you know bleed to law to banking to consulting because these industries are all
00:05:54.540 | Being for the same talent pool and to attract this talent you have to stay competitive
00:05:59.140 | With the workplace flexibility, you know
00:06:02.100 | Google started it with all these perks and all you know massages in the office and
00:06:07.160 | Free childcare in the office and now working from home and I think to stay competitive
00:06:12.860 | Other companies need to provide these benefits as well. So yes, not all of us can get these
00:06:19.380 | fancy tech jobs at Google Facebook
00:06:21.900 | Apple
00:06:24.100 | Netflix wherever and sure
00:06:26.180 | Plenty of people work very very hard
00:06:28.660 | But I've talked to so many people since 2012 who work from home or reflex hours and they are just ecstatic
00:06:35.580 | So when you're happier at work, you don't feel like you need to retire early or quit your job or leave work
00:06:42.060 | It's very logical. What are your thoughts?
00:06:44.060 | Flexibility and autonomy, I think are two of the most coveted
00:06:48.300 | features of jobs
00:06:50.740 | I definitely know that my happiness went up when I started to get more autonomy in my role and then
00:06:57.420 | flexibility as well when I
00:06:59.940 | Went back to work for my employer
00:07:01.940 | After I left to come back as a consultant when they wanted me to come back
00:07:05.780 | I had so much more flexibility and it was wonderful
00:07:10.500 | it was it was a phenomenal way to
00:07:13.500 | Be able to reconnect with everyone and earn some money
00:07:18.340 | so I definitely can see how
00:07:21.820 | Flexibility can motivate people to stay in the workforce longer
00:07:26.300 | So if you are able to let's say I don't know run errands or exercise for two three hours a day in the middle of day
00:07:34.000 | From Monday through Friday
00:07:36.600 | Do you think you would have left your job as early as you did?
00:07:40.120 | if the
00:07:42.560 | stress was
00:07:44.560 | Manageable I could see that. Yeah
00:07:47.040 | I mean
00:07:47.680 | I I was fortunate that I had the luxury to take
00:07:51.540 | Easily take an hour-long lunch break and sometimes I stretch that to an hour and a half and I was definitely happier on those days
00:07:58.560 | You know or hey, you know one of my favorite buddies is like hey, let's go get let's go take a coffee break
00:08:05.420 | You know and we'd go for 20 minutes and sometimes we stretch it to 30
00:08:08.880 | And we make sure we got all our work done
00:08:11.920 | but definitely being able to have flexibility to step out of the office or to just
00:08:16.560 | You know if you're working from home to be able to control your hours
00:08:20.720 | Some people work really great at night. Other people work super are super productive early in the morning any kind of flexibility
00:08:28.640 | I think can produce. Oh, sorry can increase happiness and productivity
00:08:33.520 | Yeah, I remember when I was 26 years old
00:08:35.560 | I was working 60 hours a week and I couldn't leave the desk for more than 15 minutes because we would have inbound phone calls
00:08:41.280 | Yeah, and you know if I left for more than 15 20 minutes other people would have to pick up my slack pick up my phone
00:08:47.540 | And say hey, we're Sam. I need this what's going on? And if they weren't in the Asian equities department, they didn't know what to do
00:08:53.280 | They just like okay. I'll have them call you back. And so that was like, okay
00:08:57.600 | I had to sit at my desk
00:08:59.520 | Tethered for many many hours a day if I didn't have client meetings or a business trip
00:09:04.760 | Yeah
00:09:05.160 | and so if I could leave for two to three hours a day go play tennis because
00:09:09.680 | Exercise is also very therapeutic right? Yeah, or I go sit in the hot tub for like an hour
00:09:14.280 | I can take phones calls from there, you know after exercise
00:09:16.980 | I would probably work until my ideal retirement age of
00:09:20.960 | 45 and that would be 11 more years of saving and investing and man we would be so much richer. What do you think?
00:09:28.080 | Yeah, I mean being well just being able to have outlets for stress during your workday
00:09:34.560 | Whatever your work hours are is so beneficial and this reminds me of Atlas of the heart
00:09:41.160 | I was rereading chapter one and she talks about how when she was working
00:09:46.360 | Tables as a waitress early on in her life how they had these two
00:09:51.120 | Phrases that they would use in the weeds and what was the other one?
00:09:55.760 | It's like blown out blown out or something. There's a certain phrase and
00:09:59.120 | basically when you use that word
00:10:01.800 | everybody would just take over for you for 10 minutes and
00:10:05.600 | You would be able to just do go outside just blow off
00:10:10.000 | Whatever steam you needed to scream or whatever and know that your your colleagues were gonna cover you for those 10 minutes
00:10:16.600 | Well, you would reset right and what a difference that made, you know
00:10:20.760 | It's not a long time 10 minutes, but just being able to have outlets for stress during a workday is is very valuable
00:10:28.480 | Yeah, and investment banking equities
00:10:31.320 | Whoa, that's one of the highest stress jobs for like I guess white-collar work
00:10:37.000 | it's just there's pressure over and over again and the markets are open and you know clients are losing money and
00:10:42.960 | Demands that was really stressful. So hopefully people can realize
00:10:48.720 | That you know, yeah, you work 60 hours a week
00:10:51.000 | which is 50% longer than the average 40-hour workweek and you work in a more stressful environment that can easily lead to burnout and
00:10:57.840 | With this flexibility Wow one one of the best things to come out of the pandemic from a professional standpoint is the acceptance
00:11:06.280 | of working from home and
00:11:08.280 | Everybody's in cahoots folks. Everybody is in cahoots who are working at home
00:11:13.640 | It is so much better because you don't have to work as much or you can just control your time
00:11:19.040 | Better and here's the funny thing. It's actually not funny. It's very logical
00:11:23.520 | the most
00:11:26.320 | Hungry the go-getters out there. They actually don't want to work from home. They don't want to go into the office
00:11:32.540 | They want face time with their bosses build a network, you know see clients get in front of people because they know
00:11:41.040 | Smartly and wisely and rightly and correctly that the more time they spend with people
00:11:46.640 | The higher up they can potentially go because at the end of the day
00:11:50.840 | People hire and promote and take care of people who they like and who they know
00:11:56.520 | Think about this folks, you know during this mass layoff season
00:12:00.960 | Here in tech how easy it is to lay people off now when you don't have to see someone
00:12:08.280 | Yeah, that's true in a meeting room and say hey your services are no longer needed you get notified by an email
00:12:14.360 | Yeah, that's tough. You just break up through text message or email
00:12:17.520 | Yeah, it's tough for the employee because you feel like wait, what the hell? I mean, I dedicated years of my life
00:12:23.120 | You're just gonna lay me off and lock me out of my account. Yeah
00:12:25.920 | Without any like going away party. I mean that was that is something that's really painful
00:12:31.640 | But from the employers point of view, it's like click click click. I know. See you later
00:12:37.680 | But that is actually something very interesting that has come out of it
00:12:40.960 | Given I wrote a book on severance negotiations, you know
00:12:44.960 | one of the strategies for severance negotiation or getting a severance is to
00:12:49.400 | Alleviate that burden that pain that embarrassment of your manager having to lay someone off
00:12:56.240 | So you say hey look, I know things are going through tough times. Maybe the stock is down 30%
00:13:00.400 | We're doing some cost cutting. I heard that from the grapevine
00:13:03.360 | I will raise my hand to get laid off so you dear boss
00:13:08.280 | Don't have to have that difficult conversation with someone else who might not be as amenable to getting laid off. Yeah
00:13:14.560 | strategies folks strategies for getting ahead
00:13:17.520 | strategies for
00:13:20.280 | Leaving and getting out, you know, it's just got to think smarter and it's a lot about human relationships
00:13:26.680 | So early retirement and fire I think was born out of misery
00:13:31.280 | The reason why I started talking about fire in 2009 was because I started to hate my job
00:13:36.640 | The you know the pressure the global financial crisis made me wonder
00:13:41.720 | What was the point of working so hard when you would just lose money and the decline in merit-based?
00:13:47.720 | Compensation was also very demotivating. Can you imagine working really hard getting ranked very well with all your clients and then not getting paid?
00:13:56.640 | commensurately or at all
00:13:59.080 | You know that that stings and so rational people find rational solutions and my rational solution was to negotiate a severance
00:14:06.600 | Do something entrepreneurial so I had nobody to blame but myself and hopefully the harder I worked the more reward I would get
00:14:14.240 | I just wanted that correlation with effort and reward and we talked about that regarding, you know, this attack on merit or this decline in merit-based
00:14:21.600 | compensation and here's another interesting
00:14:25.240 | Reason why I believe early retirement and fire is
00:14:28.400 | Obsolete or is getting to obsolescence
00:14:31.720 | Fire is an all-gender movement. However when I started talking about fire in 2009
00:14:36.720 | I was a man right and then a lot of
00:14:40.000 | Subsequent people who started talking and writing about fire were also men. However
00:14:45.760 | No stay-at-home mom says she is retired because being a mother a parent is one of the toughest jobs in the world
00:14:54.160 | I worked in banking for 13 years and it is easy in comparison to being a stay-at-home parent for just five or six years
00:15:01.240 | And I think due to stronger egos, you don't see many childless women say they are
00:15:07.280 | fire either
00:15:09.400 | They are just comfortable owning whatever it is. They're doing after traditional work
00:15:15.560 | But due to fragile egos many men are unable to admit they are stay-at-home dads
00:15:22.560 | Especially if they have a working spouse
00:15:25.360 | Rather they opt to label themselves as anything but stay-at-home dads out of pride
00:15:30.720 | You know, they come up with replacement terms such as early retiree
00:15:34.440 | fire entrepreneur author podcaster musician consultant freelancer coach investor gig worker
00:15:40.960 | It just goes on and on and on and anything but admitting
00:15:45.560 | We are stay-at-home dads
00:15:48.160 | So I wanted to get your perspective Cindy on why do you think that is and why do you think you don't hear?
00:15:55.160 | Females saying oh, they're financially independent while they have a working husband making money and you know providing health care insurance
00:16:02.600 | well, I can say that as a working mom that
00:16:06.880 | It is so much work to take care of young children, especially
00:16:11.520 | You know, I can't voice what it's like to take care of older children except from what I've heard from my friends
00:16:18.360 | And they always talk about being so busy having to transport their kids to all these various activities
00:16:24.520 | But yeah having young children, it's it's work. It's I
00:16:29.480 | Don't like to call it work because it's taking care of our our family
00:16:34.280 | But it it's it's hard and it takes a lot of time and energy
00:16:39.040 | patience
00:16:41.160 | and
00:16:42.880 | Yeah, I mean working part-time as well trying to fit it in, you know
00:16:46.960 | It's it's a lot to do and in terms of the dad side
00:16:51.160 | I'm gonna call out Brene Brown again because she's on my on the top of my mind
00:16:56.280 | I've been watching her podcast not her podcast her TED talks and such in her books
00:17:00.600 | She talks a lot about shame and vulnerability and I can totally see that as a reason why a lot of men don't want to
00:17:07.760 | talk about being stay-at-home dads because I think they feel a
00:17:11.120 | sense of
00:17:13.040 | Shame to admit that they're not
00:17:15.880 | providing income
00:17:17.880 | When they used to perhaps I mean, I don't want to
00:17:21.200 | Put you know all these men into a box and label them, but I could see how that might be a reason
00:17:28.320 | You know from an emotional standpoint of why they don't want to call themselves a stay-at-home father
00:17:34.280 | And and so but the other reason might be maybe because mothers spend on average more time with their children
00:17:42.240 | Yeah, and so therefore they definitely feel like they're not retired because they're spending more time
00:17:48.920 | Quote working to take care of their children. Yeah, whereas men spend less time on average
00:17:55.120 | therefore
00:17:57.160 | Maybe they just can't
00:17:59.160 | Own to the fact that they are stay-at-home dads and providers because maybe men feel guilty that they're not doing
00:18:07.840 | Their part or enough work to consider themselves a stay-at-home fathers. Yeah
00:18:13.320 | I'm still curious though because taking care of children vulnerable children who are still learning and who need as much
00:18:19.800 | Help and education and love and support as possible. Why is this considered not an admirable job for men?
00:18:28.520 | I think because it's still rare
00:18:30.320 | I know when you know, our son was still young and his baby and toddler years
00:18:37.120 | You didn't meet very many
00:18:39.120 | Stay-at-home dads. I mean, did you I don't even remember if you met one who was
00:18:43.280 | Doing that as his primary role. I feel like it's still very
00:18:48.720 | Very rare. Yeah, I do remember taking him like when he was two years old to Golden Gate Park to the Botanical Garden with
00:18:56.920 | three or four other mothers and
00:18:59.560 | I think no he was six months to 12 months and then it was kind of awkward because we sat in a circle and then
00:19:07.040 | Three out of the five mothers started breastfeeding. Oh, this was a mom's thing. Oh, it was yeah
00:19:12.360 | it was a mom's meetup that I was going to and you came along because
00:19:17.520 | You had the flexibility. So that's a little bit of a different scenario because it was a scheduled meetup for mom
00:19:25.800 | Yeah, so I mean out of respect and courtesy I walked away, you know just to give
00:19:30.640 | The moms more privacy and comfort, but okay that was specifically but yeah
00:19:35.560 | I didn't meet many stay-at-home dads. There was a Facebook group that you joined
00:19:41.000 | Yeah, or a meetup dad parent. I never like I never meet up with them. Yeah, there weren't that
00:19:46.840 | I just feel like there weren't that many. Yeah, so we're really a minority. Yeah, and so when you're a minority
00:19:51.880 | Let's say you're a minority minority
00:19:54.120 | There's just not a very supportive outlet and I guess when you read articles online a lot of the articles online talk about
00:20:02.280 | The anguish of mother is trying to do it all to have their career and be mothers. You never read about. Oh the
00:20:08.700 | Dad guilt that men are trying to do it all and be fathers and providers as well
00:20:14.740 | it's very unbalanced and I think partly the reason why it's unbalanced is because
00:20:19.280 | You know in the beginning or a while ago. We're trying to help more women
00:20:23.360 | Do it all do more have their careers go to college be successful business people
00:20:28.800 | But I give you props for talking about these topics and your podcast and in your articles because you've talked about fatherhood a lot
00:20:36.200 | Over the years and I think there are a lot of dads out there who have left comments about how appreciative
00:20:42.680 | They are of the feelings that you voice that you have the courage to talk about the uncomfortable things
00:20:49.360 | That you felt in your journey as a father
00:20:53.000 | Yeah
00:20:53.580 | I really really if you're a father out there who wants to spend more time taking care of your children
00:20:58.780 | Don't let society or your buddies or women make you feel bad for spending more time with your children
00:21:06.200 | Nothing is more priceless. Nothing is more valuable than that
00:21:10.580 | I think you're not gonna regret spending more time with your children when you look back when they're older
00:21:16.160 | It's just one of those things where it's just kind of like I don't think you're gonna regret working hard
00:21:21.140 | At your job or doing something because the reward is worth it, please
00:21:26.380 | Don't feel embarrassed for no longer having day jobs feel proud of your partner your
00:21:34.740 | girlfriend your wives
00:21:36.940 | For earning money providing for your family providing health care, you know support their careers
00:21:43.300 | You know, this is something that I really admire
00:21:46.580 | Anybody who you know just goes out there and pursues what they want. We have you know, there's one mother
00:21:52.260 | In our school and she has this she's a chef
00:21:55.900 | right and we watch her show and it's on the food network and it's just so admirable to see her go out there and
00:22:01.740 | Cook and also try to build her business empire. Yeah being able to follow your dreams and pursue what you love is
00:22:08.980 | Is a very valuable thing and not everyone is able to follow their dreams
00:22:16.140 | when they want to and for those of you who have a dream that you're really passionate about
00:22:21.980 | Don't give up, you know, even if you can't do everything that you want right now. Keep going don't give up on
00:22:28.940 | your path to happiness
00:22:32.140 | so with less men ashamed about
00:22:35.860 | Saying they are stay-at-home dads and with society being more accepting of stay-at-home dads
00:22:42.920 | I think fire and early retirement
00:22:45.940 | Therefore is becoming less popular because less men will start
00:22:50.460 | Needing to shout on the internet or in social media or to their friends that they're everything else
00:22:56.580 | but being a stay-at-home dad you can say I'm a stay-at-home dad and
00:23:00.780 | I'm a freelancer. I'm a stay-at-home dad and I'm an author but put that stay-at-home fatherhood up first
00:23:09.100 | You know say it with your chest be proud
00:23:12.320 | yeah, and finally the reason why early retirement is becoming obsolete is because there are
00:23:18.500 | Many many ways to make money now
00:23:21.940 | Thanks to technology and the internet some commentators have said well my thesis
00:23:28.100 | that fire is becoming obsolete is not inclusive of
00:23:31.980 | construction workers or
00:23:34.540 | Secretaries or nonprofit organization people or anybody who has to be in the office
00:23:40.380 | Every single day to help
00:23:42.380 | Society thrive and I say no I say no it is inclusive of
00:23:47.720 | Them because the internet is inclusive of everybody
00:23:51.780 | Everybody has access to the internet now if you can't afford it at home
00:23:55.620 | You can go to the library you can learn anything you want for free on the internet nowadays so to say
00:24:01.900 | You know my thesis is not inclusive
00:24:05.020 | I think is incorrect because anybody can go online to learn and to make money if they have the audacity
00:24:12.300 | To try I'm not talking about instantly replacing your day job income
00:24:17.100 | I'm saying you don't have to retire early from a terrible miserable job
00:24:21.820 | Because there are more opportunities now you can supplement
00:24:26.540 | your day job income
00:24:29.180 | With online income or different ways to make money right there's blogging podcasting youtubing courses
00:24:36.420 | Editing freelancing consulting you can do everything on the internet every single company has an online website where you can
00:24:43.240 | Order or connect with people in addition no college education is required
00:24:49.220 | Yeah, about 65 68 percent of high school students nowadays go to college
00:24:54.140 | 65% of all Americans have college degrees and you know what that's actually another the great thing about the internet
00:24:59.740 | You don't need a college education. You can learn everything for free
00:25:02.580 | You can start your website start your podcast do anything you want if you focus and try alright folks
00:25:10.160 | We would love to hear your thoughts on whether you believe the trend towards early retirement
00:25:15.340 | Fire is becoming obsolete or not one of the reasons why I decided to start this fake retirement movement
00:25:24.420 | Was so that more people can have an outlet to have permission to make money from other than their day jobs
00:25:31.140 | So not have to be pigeonholed to either being retired or working
00:25:36.460 | Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast episode or this entire series, we'd love a awesome 5-star review
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