Senator Kyrsten Sinema | All-In Summit 2024

00:00:00.000 | This is very good news for Sinema, what just happened in the last couple minutes.

00:00:03.440 | Kirsten Sinema has been declared the winner.

00:00:06.120 | This is the first time that a Democrat will have won a Senate seat in Arizona since 1976.

00:00:12.040 | The first woman ever to serve as senator in Arizona.

00:00:15.760 | So it's a very big deal.

00:00:16.840 | Censured by the Arizona Democratic Party, Kirsten Sinema announcing she's leaving the Democratic Party.

00:00:23.920 | She's going to be leaving the Senate.

00:00:25.680 | If you ever meet someone with whom you agree 100 percent, either they're a liar

00:00:29.960 | or you're not thinking for yourself.

00:00:31.640 | Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Senator Sinema.

00:00:35.200 | Thanks for coming.

00:00:37.240 | Absolutely.

00:00:38.080 | Thank you for being here.

00:00:39.440 | How are you?

00:00:41.640 | Hey, it's good to see you.

00:00:43.840 | Alright, well I think you heard J.D.

00:00:50.760 | I listened to some of it.

00:00:52.720 | You listened to some of it?

00:00:53.440 | Yeah, I listened to the whole thing.

00:00:54.880 | What's your take on J.D. and, you know, if he were to be called on to be president,

00:01:01.680 | which is the nature of that job, God forbid, for whatever reason,

00:01:06.680 | how do you think he would do as president?

00:01:08.480 | Well, first let me say J.D. and I have been friends for quite some time.

00:01:11.280 | You know, we served together in the Senate.

00:01:12.560 | We have a great relationship.

00:01:14.000 | We don't agree on everything.

00:01:16.040 | What I really appreciate about J.D. is that it doesn't bother him that we don't agree on everything.

00:01:20.640 | Right?

00:01:21.760 | I know that sounds strange, but...

00:01:23.360 | Not here.

00:01:24.360 | Right.

00:01:25.360 | I mean, yeah, obviously, you guys.

00:01:28.800 | There's this thing that I think is kind of disturbing that's happened in American politics,

00:01:33.560 | and it's this idea that you either have to agree with someone 100% of the time,

00:01:37.120 | or they are your mortal enemy and must be destroyed.

00:01:39.080 | Right.

00:01:39.600 | And the two parties actually talk about each other in this, like, existential threat way, right?

00:01:45.320 | Like the only way the country will be safe is if we completely eliminate the existence of the other party.

00:01:49.840 | But if you think about that, that's actually incredibly dangerous, right?

00:01:53.880 | Yeah.

00:01:54.880 | It's incredibly dangerous.

00:01:55.880 | To have one party?

00:01:56.880 | Yes.

00:01:57.880 | It's called China and Russia.

00:01:58.880 | Exactly.

00:01:59.880 | That's exactly right.

00:02:00.880 | So, what we really want in this country, what I really want, is a robust marketplace of

00:02:05.080 | ideas, and not only the idea that you can tolerate that someone else has an idea different

00:02:09.760 | than your own, but that you can welcome the idea that someone has a different idea than

00:02:13.920 | your own.

00:02:14.920 | Because you might, I know this sounds crazy, learn from that other idea, and over time

00:02:19.400 | change or grow your opinions.

00:02:21.120 | It's an opportunity.

00:02:22.320 | And so, that's one of my favorite things about J.D., is that he and I have areas where we

00:02:27.520 | share opinion very closely, and we have areas where we don't share the same opinion.

00:02:32.240 | And it's not a problem at all.

00:02:33.760 | Like, we're both comfortable with the idea of difference of opinion.

00:02:37.520 | I think that's core to the idea of who you want in a leader.

00:02:41.800 | Why has that happened?

00:02:43.360 | So, why have we found ourselves in a place where we are intolerant of the other party's

00:02:48.880 | ideas and we are intolerant of members of the other party?

00:02:51.560 | Well...

00:02:52.560 | What's driven this change?

00:02:54.320 | I will say that the term "we" doesn't apply to me, obviously, because when people told

00:02:59.440 | me to do that, I was like, "Yeah, no, I'm not going to do that at all," and they were

00:03:02.720 | like, "You're excused."

00:03:03.720 | Right.

00:03:04.720 | Right.

00:03:05.720 | And for those who don't know your background, you left the Democratic Party.

00:03:09.160 | That's right.

00:03:10.160 | And as a sitting senator.

00:03:12.280 | Yes.

00:03:13.280 | Right.

00:03:14.280 | Yes, that's right.

00:03:15.280 | Yeah.

00:03:16.280 | Because I think you should have your own opinion.

00:03:17.280 | I'm...

00:03:18.280 | Pretty straightforward.

00:03:19.280 | Yeah.

00:03:20.280 | And so...

00:03:21.280 | How does that...

00:03:22.280 | How does that phone call go?

00:03:23.680 | Do you call Chuck and say, "I have something to tell you," or actually, more importantly,

00:03:28.720 | joking aside, how did that evolution happen for you?

00:03:31.320 | Ah.

00:03:32.320 | So, you started out...

00:03:33.320 | You're in Arizona.

00:03:34.320 | You start out as a clear Democrat.

00:03:35.320 | That wins you the...

00:03:36.320 | Actually...

00:03:37.320 | So, "Turn Back Time," great song.

00:03:41.740 | When I first ran for office, very young, like in my 20s, I ran as an independent.

00:03:46.040 | Right.

00:03:47.040 | And then I ran dead last.

00:03:48.040 | Yeah.

00:03:49.040 | And then I re-registered as a Democrat, ran for the same office, came in first.

00:03:52.720 | And then you fast forward...

00:03:53.880 | Changed nothing.

00:03:54.880 | It...

00:03:55.880 | Meaning, in terms of what you said?

00:03:56.880 | My hair changes all the time.

00:03:57.880 | But apart from that, nothing changed.

00:03:59.400 | Nothing changed.

00:04:00.400 | Right?

00:04:01.400 | Right.

00:04:02.400 | So, re-registered as a Democrat, came in first.

00:04:03.400 | Served in the state house for six years, served in the state senate for a term, ran

00:04:07.700 | for the US Congress, won a competitive district, slightly more Republican than Democrat.

00:04:12.680 | I won.

00:04:13.680 | I served in that seat for six years, ran for the Senate, became the first woman ever to

00:04:18.080 | win a Senate race in Arizona.

00:04:21.080 | More importantly, I was the first member of, at the time, the Democratic Party in over

00:04:28.000 | 30 years to win a Senate seat in Arizona.

00:04:31.080 | But I was never a traditional Democrat.

00:04:32.800 | And those who've known me for a long time have always known that, that I just am not

00:04:36.640 | interested in fitting into a box and never have been.

00:04:39.480 | And so, I've always been me.

00:04:41.840 | There came a point where me being me no longer fit within the Democratic Party.

00:04:47.440 | And they were really uncomfortable having me in the party.

00:04:50.680 | And so, I made it easier for them by leaving.

00:04:53.140 | And it made everyone happier.

00:04:54.760 | I was a lot happier because I was being more genuine.

00:04:57.840 | But what does that mean?

00:04:59.640 | Can you just double-click into you being you?

00:05:01.200 | What is it that made them so uncomfortable?

00:05:04.280 | Well, I'll give you an example.

00:05:08.240 | My first vote in the United States Senate was a vote on the issue of Israel.

00:05:13.160 | And I got a call from, at the time, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

00:05:18.200 | And he asked me to vote no on the measure.

00:05:23.040 | And I said, "Well, there's zero chance I'm voting no on this measure.

00:05:26.520 | This is a vote to stand with Israel.

00:05:29.480 | The chance I vote no is a hard zero."

00:05:31.120 | He was like, "Ah, this is partisan, and we got to be a unity."

00:05:38.560 | And I'm not going to share the details of that conversation, but it was a partisan conversation.

00:05:43.480 | And for me, I was like, "I'm confused about the nature of this conversation because the

00:05:47.800 | idea that I'm going to change my vote because someone else wants me to is never going to

00:05:52.400 | happen."

00:05:53.400 | Right.

00:05:54.400 | The only thing that would cause me to change my vote is to get new information that changes

00:05:58.080 | the calculus for my decision.

00:05:59.680 | Right?

00:06:00.680 | The only sign of growth and learning is if you get new information, right?

00:06:05.040 | There was no new information.

00:06:06.520 | It was just a party vote.

00:06:07.960 | And I said, "Yeah, well, I don't need to go to the party.

00:06:09.840 | Like, I'm going to vote the way that I believe."

00:06:12.840 | And for me, that didn't seem like a particularly important moment.

00:06:16.360 | It's just how I am.

00:06:18.000 | But that was problematic for other people.

00:06:21.560 | Is there a lot of pressure in the way that politics happens on the ground, which is a

00:06:26.920 | lot of you in the Senate may come to a conclusion or an opinion, but before that vote is cast,

00:06:32.240 | there's just...

00:06:33.240 | On both sides.

00:06:34.240 | Yeah.

00:06:35.240 | Tremendous pressure to reassign whatever you underwrote.

00:06:37.440 | It almost...

00:06:38.440 | Hey, it doesn't matter.

00:06:39.440 | Now, we got to toe the party line.

00:06:40.440 | Is there a lot of that?

00:06:41.440 | Yes.

00:06:42.440 | Yeah.

00:06:43.440 | I mean, the biggest example of that would be what I think is the most important vote

00:06:45.880 | I've ever taken in my entire life.

00:06:47.820 | And that was the vote to protect the filibuster.

00:06:50.620 | The pressure around that vote was severe.

00:06:53.240 | Let me want to explain that to folks just...

00:06:55.800 | Yeah.

00:06:56.800 | So the filibuster is a provision in the United States Senate.

00:06:59.240 | It's a rule.

00:07:00.240 | It's not constitutional, but it's a rule that requires that any major piece of legislation,

00:07:04.480 | any policy-related legislation requires the approval of 60 senators rather than 51, so

00:07:11.000 | a super majority, in order to move forward to debate, discuss, and pass the piece of

00:07:15.400 | legislation.

00:07:16.400 | Now, there's some people who hate the filibuster because they like to have all the power when

00:07:19.800 | they have the power, and I think it's very dangerous to eliminate the filibuster.

00:07:24.000 | The filibuster is like a control mechanism that keeps the Senate from ricocheting back

00:07:28.160 | and forth between the wild edges of the political pressure from either party.

00:07:32.800 | Now, some people will say, "Well, the filibuster's new.

00:07:35.720 | It wasn't always around."

00:07:36.720 | Well, that's true, because when the Senate was founded, it took 100 senators to move

00:07:42.320 | forward on a piece of legislation, right?

00:07:44.680 | 100.

00:07:45.680 | And it's eroded down to 60.

00:07:47.280 | I believe it would be very dangerous to eliminate that and allow it to be a simple majority.

00:07:51.840 | The Senate would become the House, and for God's sake, I served there for six years.

00:07:54.720 | There's a reason I went to the Senate, right?

00:07:58.340 | The idea is that the Senate is a place that represents all of the views of the country,

00:08:03.000 | including areas that are rural or small or had been left behind.

00:08:07.400 | Minority opinions must be protected and celebrated in the United States Senate.

00:08:11.680 | But there was intense pressure, intense pressure, to eliminate the filibuster.

00:08:15.440 | Now, the thing that's interesting is that pressure had zero impact on me, like zero,

00:08:22.000 | none.

00:08:23.000 | And people thought it was going to.

00:08:24.280 | They were like, "Oh, we're going to get her.

00:08:25.520 | We're going to get her."

00:08:26.520 | And I just was like, "Sure, I'll go to every meeting you'd like."

00:08:29.320 | I went to every single meeting.

00:08:30.640 | I listened to everyone.

00:08:31.760 | No one ever gave me any information that led me to think it would be a good idea to get

00:08:37.800 | rid of the last vestige of bipartisanship in the United States Senate.

00:08:42.320 | Is there a...

00:08:46.040 | Knowing what you know now, is there a path out of this?

00:08:50.640 | And how much more toxic has it gotten over the years?

00:08:55.280 | And why?

00:08:56.280 | And why?

00:08:57.280 | We didn't get to the why.

00:08:58.280 | What's driven the extreme partisanship, the inability to have dialogue, the lack of the

00:09:04.880 | idea, the cauldron?

00:09:05.880 | Well, it has gotten a lot worse.

00:09:07.680 | I've been doing this for 20 years and obviously started in elementary school, but I've been

00:09:12.920 | doing it for a long time and it has gotten much more severe, much more partisan.

00:09:18.680 | There are a number of factors for that.

00:09:21.140 | But I think a large part of it is that we as Americans, we, all of us, are choosing

00:09:27.380 | people who agree with us 100% of the time because it feels good.

00:09:32.840 | Even if those individuals don't get shit done, they don't return any results, but they will

00:09:37.420 | make a TikTok telling you how your view is so right.

00:09:41.160 | And it's now become out of favor to support someone with whom you agree with only 60%

00:09:46.080 | of the time.

00:09:47.080 | When the reality is, is that if you find someone with whom you agree with only 60% of the time,

00:09:52.280 | they're thinking for themselves and so are you.

00:09:54.520 | But if you find someone with whom you agree with 100% of the time, either they're lying

00:09:58.480 | to you or you're not thinking for yourself.

00:10:00.880 | And those are two very dangerous things, both very dangerous.

00:10:04.480 | So it has gotten more and more extreme because our political system rewards those who say

00:10:09.760 | the things that are not true in order to get the applause and the likes and the support,

00:10:14.560 | money, et cetera, and punish those who say the things that are true but are not everything

00:10:20.560 | you want.

00:10:21.560 | You know?

00:10:22.560 | Does that mean that democracy eventually dies?

00:10:24.600 | No, I don't think so.

00:10:26.000 | Our country has been through much worse.

00:10:27.160 | I mean, we had a civil war.

00:10:28.960 | I do think it gets worse for a while before it gets better, you know?

00:10:32.480 | And to Jason's question, how does it get better?

00:10:34.360 | Well, I think it gets really bad.

00:10:36.480 | And then when it gets pretty bad, people are like, "Oh, shit, we've got to do something.

00:10:39.600 | Like, this is our only country."

00:10:41.200 | And then, you know, it kind of comes back.

00:10:43.040 | Is that this moment now?

00:10:44.040 | Yeah.

00:10:45.040 | No, I don't think we're there yet.

00:10:47.280 | What play out the scenarios here, Kamala wins, Trump wins, we spend another eight trillion

00:10:53.440 | in debt and how many more cycles can we do that?

00:10:57.280 | Neither party cares about debt.

00:10:58.280 | Tell me about it.

00:10:59.280 | Let's be honest about that.

00:11:00.280 | Well, but-

00:11:01.280 | Big spenders on both sides.

00:11:02.280 | Yeah.

00:11:03.280 | Which means it's going to happen.

00:11:05.160 | So we're sitting here maybe two more cycles from now and we've put another 15 trillion

00:11:10.120 | down, you know, on this.

00:11:11.360 | And then when does it break?

00:11:12.560 | What is the impetus to make that change?

00:11:18.000 | When does it break down?

00:11:19.000 | When do we hit rock bottom?

00:11:20.000 | What concerns you?

00:11:21.000 | I'm not sure I know the answer to that.

00:11:22.000 | And anyone who tells you they do is probably lying.

00:11:23.520 | But what are the possibilities that you see from inside the machine of this really breaking?

00:11:28.080 | Yeah.

00:11:29.080 | There are some challenges ahead, right?

00:11:30.080 | I mean, Congress spends like a drunken sailor with no thought for the future.

00:11:34.320 | We are running to the tape on being able to fund things like social security and Medicare.

00:11:40.080 | And Congress is doing nothing to solve it, right?

00:11:43.120 | There's actually a little coalition of us who are trying to solve those problems.

00:11:47.000 | Cassidy, Senator Cassidy, Senator King, myself.

00:11:51.760 | And when we went to go talk to our colleagues on both sides of the aisle, they were like,

00:11:54.960 | "No, let's wait till after the election."

00:11:56.960 | Yeah, that's totally going to make it better, right?

00:11:59.840 | Things are going to be totally good after the election.

00:12:02.520 | They're just putting off that which is uncomfortable because the solution to those fiscal problems

00:12:08.000 | require sacrifice in the short term.

00:12:10.600 | And elected officials are not willing to sacrifice anything in the short term because it means

00:12:14.260 | that they may not get reelected.

00:12:15.260 | And if their number one goal is to survive, then they're not going to make the hard decisions.

00:12:19.520 | Can we talk about that for a second?

00:12:20.960 | Yeah.

00:12:21.960 | Can you just explain to us the underbelly of politics, the money in politics, the people

00:12:26.480 | that you have to spend time with, how the money cycle works, how did you feel that pressure,

00:12:33.560 | if at all?

00:12:34.560 | Even if...

00:12:35.560 | I'm not saying you responded to it, but maybe just to explain to it.

00:12:37.520 | Well, it does take millions and millions and millions of dollars to run for office.

00:12:40.480 | I mean, a Senate seat in Arizona is like, what, $150 million?

00:12:45.400 | So you do need a lot of help.

00:12:47.040 | Sorry, to win a Senate seat, it's $150 million in Arizona.

00:12:50.240 | Yeah, in Arizona.

00:12:51.640 | But there are some states in which it probably costs way less because it's not competitive.

00:12:56.240 | But in a competitive state, it's going to be very, very expensive.

00:13:00.240 | But look, there is always pressure to raise the money, but you can go about it however

00:13:05.160 | you want to go about it.

00:13:07.040 | Most people go about it the easy way, which is to just kind of follow the line that the

00:13:10.520 | party is given, and then the machine lines it up to give you the money.

00:13:14.740 | If you choose not to follow the line, which is the path that I took, then you have to

00:13:20.320 | find folks who are also unusual and don't fit easily into a party line to help and support

00:13:26.640 | you.

00:13:27.640 | But that's a very important thing you're saying.

00:13:28.640 | So essentially is, if you conform, which means that in those times where you get the phone

00:13:32.400 | call, you have to basically toe the line, otherwise the money spigot stops.

00:13:38.080 | Yeah.

00:13:39.080 | Is that right?

00:13:40.080 | Or no, is it not that drastic?

00:13:41.080 | I mean, it was that drastic for me.

00:13:42.440 | After the filibuster vote, everyone was like, we hate you, clunk.

00:13:46.200 | And I was like, right, but I am protecting democracy, so call me back later, click.

00:13:50.120 | They have not called back.

00:13:54.040 | That day's coming, guys.

00:13:57.600 | So the way you're framing it, though, I think is maybe not exactly correct, because what

00:14:03.040 | you're saying is you have to do the party line thing in order to stay in.

00:14:05.920 | The thing that I think it's important to remember is most people want to do the party line thing.

00:14:10.720 | It's not like they're sitting around going like, oh, I really don't want to vote this

00:14:13.400 | way, but I really feel like I have to, to save my career.

00:14:16.160 | There's this thing about being part of the club.

00:14:19.020 | People want to be part of the club, and so it's not like the thumb is being pushed down

00:14:24.000 | on lots of people to get them to do a certain thing.

00:14:26.400 | They're doing it because they're part of the club.

00:14:28.760 | Does that make sense?

00:14:30.320 | Right.

00:14:31.320 | It makes sense.

00:14:32.320 | I don't understand that.

00:14:33.320 | Me either, obviously.

00:14:34.320 | But I get it.

00:14:35.320 | So, first of all, I want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you about the need to have a free

00:14:40.080 | marketplace of ideas where people can debate these issues without any fear of reprisal.

00:14:44.720 | And I think it's sentiments like that that made me support you as when you were a senator

00:14:51.200 | and a Democrat.

00:14:52.200 | People may be surprised to find out that actually we co-hosted an event with you a few years

00:14:57.400 | ago because I look for opportunities to support Democrats when I can when they're independent

00:15:02.700 | minded.

00:15:03.700 | And look, I wrote that one for you, David.

00:15:04.700 | I've always appreciated that.

00:15:05.700 | I've always appreciated that about you.

00:15:06.920 | So thank you for that.

00:15:07.920 | We had breakfast.

00:15:08.920 | Yeah, exactly.

00:15:09.920 | We had breakfast.

00:15:10.920 | We went back to the first year of the Biden administration, 2021.

00:15:15.640 | And I don't know if people remember, but that whole year, domestic politics was roiled by

00:15:21.600 | a piece of legislation called Build Back Better.

00:15:24.360 | This is a four and a half trillion dollar spending package.

00:15:27.440 | Actually, originally it was six, remember?

00:15:28.440 | Six.

00:15:29.440 | Six trillion.

00:15:30.440 | Six trillion.

00:15:31.440 | Which is like, woohoo!

00:15:32.440 | That's like bonkers.

00:15:33.440 | Yeah, they brought it down to four and a half trillion.

00:15:34.440 | What's the difference?

00:15:35.440 | Four, six?

00:15:36.440 | Whatever.

00:15:37.440 | Whatever.

00:15:38.440 | Yeah.

00:15:39.440 | And it eventually failed because every Republican voted against it, and two Democrats, you and

00:15:46.680 | Senator Manchin, voted against it, as I recall.

00:15:54.640 | The thing that always seemed really crazy to me is, beyond just the sheer amount of

00:15:58.760 | the spending package, which now everyone looks at the deficit and the debt, and they're like,

00:16:02.400 | it's already crazy enough as it is without that having passed.

00:16:06.280 | Imagine if it did pass.

00:16:07.280 | Yeah.

00:16:08.280 | Our economy.

00:16:09.280 | Can you imagine?

00:16:10.280 | Yeah.

00:16:11.280 | It would have been a total disaster, I think.

00:16:16.280 | But the amazing thing to me was that we had this yearlong debate in Washington, and they

00:16:21.560 | never just came to you and Manchin at the beginning of the process and just said, "What

00:16:26.880 | are you guys willing to do?"

00:16:27.880 | Because you were the swing votes, right?

00:16:29.480 | And instead, they spent a year pushing for this thing, and then I guess they expected

00:16:34.160 | to kind of jam it through at the end, put enough pressure on you to vote for this.

00:16:38.680 | I actually had this discussion with Schumer in the White House in the summer of '21.

00:16:43.560 | So I'm sure all of you remember all of this, because this is what you do in your lives,

00:16:47.920 | is think about the work that I'm doing in the United States Senate.

00:16:51.520 | But in February of 2021, after we passed a big COVID package, which we passed a pretty

00:16:59.840 | sizable COVID package, I was worried that it wasn't paid for.

00:17:02.840 | I was worried about the impact this would have on the economy.

00:17:06.000 | Turns out all that was right.

00:17:07.720 | I went to Schumer the day after that and said, "Look, I know that you want to do infrastructure

00:17:12.640 | next, and I want to do infrastructure, because infrastructure is really important for the

00:17:16.080 | future of economic growth and competitiveness in our country.

00:17:18.720 | But I want to do it in a bipartisan way, because that's what we should be doing in the Senate."

00:17:23.960 | And he said something to me along the lines of, "We'd love to have the Republicans with

00:17:27.160 | us.

00:17:28.160 | If they'd like to come, that'd be great."

00:17:29.160 | And I was like, "Well, so my idea of bipartisanship is a little bit different.

00:17:32.360 | It's more about the sit down and work together and create something together, and then have

00:17:35.480 | a product that you put up together, rather than just building it and asking someone to

00:17:38.600 | come and jump on your train."

00:17:40.360 | And so people just kind of patted me on the head.

00:17:44.760 | And I went out and started working with Rob Portman, who has since retired, but let me

00:17:48.240 | tell you what, super smart, very nerdy, great with a spreadsheet.

00:17:52.840 | I was like, "That's my guy right there."

00:17:55.040 | And so Rob and I began working quietly, just the two of us, doing nuts and bolts of how

00:18:00.600 | to build an infrastructure plan.

00:18:02.520 | After we gained some steam, we began inviting others.

00:18:05.800 | So it ended up that we had a really carefully curated group of five Dems and five Republicans,

00:18:11.240 | all moderates and conservatives, working on infrastructure.

00:18:15.400 | And we got to a place where our infrastructure bill was going to go.

00:18:19.000 | You all may recall, we actually got it done, and it was paid for.

00:18:24.580 | But while we were almost at the point of voting on the infrastructure package, that's when

00:18:30.000 | the White House unveiled Build Back Better.

00:18:32.760 | And I actually put out a public statement, which is very rare for me, saying, "There's

00:18:37.200 | no way I'm going to vote for that package, because it cost $8 bazillion, and it was irresponsible."

00:18:42.200 | And, oh, they were so pissed off.

00:18:44.080 | They were like, "Why did you say that?"

00:18:45.360 | I'm like, "Well, I think it's important for everyone to know that there's zero chance

00:18:49.000 | I vote for that.

00:18:50.000 | And I want to say it now so that I don't get jammed later, right?

00:18:53.520 | Because I would rather disappoint people today rather than disappoint them the day of the

00:18:57.080 | vote.

00:18:58.080 | I want them to know I will never vote for this."

00:18:59.400 | And the pressure just grew from there.

00:19:01.640 | Didn't work, obviously, because there was zero chance in which I was going to vote for

00:19:05.440 | $4.5 trillion of new taxes, many of which are being debated right now in the presidential

00:19:09.680 | campaign and which are bonkers.

00:19:12.040 | And so I just, I said no.

00:19:14.200 | I said no early on.

00:19:16.000 | So I did start engaging with the White House after that.

00:19:19.100 | And they said, "Well, what would you vote for?"

00:19:20.240 | And I said, "Here."

00:19:21.920 | And I created a spreadsheet.

00:19:23.120 | And I said, "Here are all the tax policies that you're interested in.

00:19:26.920 | Here are the ones that I'm willing to consider."

00:19:29.720 | It was a small list.

00:19:31.880 | And they just didn't believe me for a long time.

00:19:35.160 | It took a year.

00:19:36.160 | No, it took about 14 months.

00:19:37.820 | Fourteen months later, they believed me when I said, "Here are the policies I will support.

00:19:42.600 | Here are the ones I will not support."

00:19:43.860 | But it took 14 months before people believed that I meant what I said about tax policy.

00:19:49.560 | When J.D. was up here, and thank you for that work, by the way, and that independence.

00:19:55.920 | It just strikes me before you move on, Jason, that we could have avoided so much rancor

00:20:01.000 | over the first one to two years of the Biden administration if they'd just listened to

00:20:04.920 | you.

00:20:05.920 | Except in reality.

00:20:06.920 | Because you were trying to find-

00:20:07.920 | That's what I said.

00:20:08.920 | You were trying to find...

00:20:09.920 | It was close to a 50/50 Senate.

00:20:10.920 | Or I guess it was a 50/50.

00:20:11.920 | It was 50/50.

00:20:12.920 | It was 50/50.

00:20:13.920 | It was 50/50.

00:20:14.920 | Right.

00:20:15.920 | So it's not like President Biden had an LBJ-like mandate to push through massive new tax-spending

00:20:21.000 | programs.

00:20:22.000 | I did point that out a few times.

00:20:23.080 | So in any event, it's always seemed crazy to me that they didn't listen to you, and

00:20:27.000 | they didn't try and find that bipartisan compromise very early on.

00:20:31.680 | We could have avoided so much of this, again, the rancor.

00:20:38.000 | But here's the thing, David, and then I want to get to your point, but look, both parties

00:20:41.680 | do this.

00:20:42.680 | So I don't want it to sound like I'm just shitting all over Biden and Schumer.

00:20:46.960 | Because look, when Trump was president and he controlled all the chambers, he did the

00:20:50.920 | same thing.

00:20:51.920 | So there's no purity here, right?

00:20:55.300 | When one party has total control, they overuse it.

00:20:59.660 | That is what happens.

00:21:01.040 | Because when a party gets power, they think they're going to have it forever, they overreach,

00:21:06.020 | and then the system corrects.

00:21:07.340 | And so one might suggest, just maybe suggest, that a small amount of humility would help

00:21:12.300 | here.

00:21:13.300 | To think that perhaps when you do have power, you may not always have power, and that it

00:21:16.620 | would be good and it would serve you well to always consider other people's positions,

00:21:21.460 | other party positions, even if they're not the same as your own, because there will come

00:21:24.580 | a time when those individuals have the power.

00:21:27.360 | And that perhaps if you're interested in having some stability and predictability in our country,

00:21:32.060 | that finding that more moderate ground is always good, regardless of which party is

00:21:36.700 | in power.

00:21:37.700 | That's very unpopular what I just said.

00:21:40.700 | I'm curious, when we look at this two-party system, if there is a way out of it and to

00:21:49.180 | maybe create a little bit more choice for, and a little bit more competition, and have

00:21:55.500 | a viable third party.

00:21:57.500 | Sachs, you explained in the last panel how Kennedy to Trump and Cheney to Kamala.

00:22:05.940 | It's very strange times we're living in, and most of us don't feel that either party represents

00:22:10.740 | us fully.

00:22:11.740 | Sachs doesn't believe with these neocons, starting wars everywhere, et cetera.

00:22:15.280 | So is it possible for us to have a viable third party, because you seem to be also party-less?

00:22:19.960 | Which I'm fine with.

00:22:23.240 | Party of one is great, guys.

00:22:24.620 | I love it.

00:22:25.620 | Party of one, sit at the bar.

00:22:26.620 | Yeah.

00:22:27.620 | It's perfect.

00:22:28.620 | Yes, I love it.

00:22:29.620 | It's great.

00:22:30.620 | Yeah, me too.

00:22:31.620 | The nice thing about being a party of one is you get to have the entire platform to

00:22:33.940 | yourself.

00:22:34.940 | If people are like, "What's your party platform?"

00:22:36.480 | Well, I made it up because it's all my ideas.

00:22:38.440 | It's wonderful.

00:22:39.440 | Yes.

00:22:40.440 | So there was an attempt this year to try and create a third party option.

00:22:45.200 | The group No Labels, with whom I have a great relationship with and a lot of respect for,

00:22:49.720 | worked on it.

00:22:51.080 | The time is not ripe for that.

00:22:52.640 | That was obvious.

00:22:53.640 | Why is the time not ripe?

00:22:55.260 | I don't know that I can answer that for you.

00:22:58.040 | My assessment is that many people in America are so scared of what the other party represents

00:23:04.480 | and the potential overreach that comes from the other party's positions, and the story

00:23:08.480 | that has been created, that the existence of the other party is an existential threat

00:23:12.760 | to the future of our country.

00:23:14.640 | That's a story that both parties tell.

00:23:16.480 | I think because of that, most Americans, they're dissatisfied with the parties, but they don't

00:23:23.200 | feel confident or comfortable enough to go somewhere else because they're not sure what

00:23:27.080 | it will bring.

00:23:28.320 | The fear of the other is at an all-time high.

00:23:31.760 | I'm curious in this audience, putting this election cycle aside, how many people would

00:23:35.280 | like to see us have a third or fourth option, a third or fourth party?

00:23:38.480 | Raise your hand.

00:23:39.480 | Okay.

00:23:40.480 | That's like everybody in the audience.

00:23:41.480 | I don't...

00:23:42.480 | I mean, this is a unique audience.

00:23:43.480 | A lot of parties have won.

00:23:44.480 | What's that?

00:23:45.480 | A lot of parties have won.

00:23:46.480 | Yeah.

00:23:47.480 | I mean...

00:23:48.480 | I think more Americans...

00:23:49.480 | Ross Perot got 19%.

00:23:50.480 | It looked like Bobby Kennedy had, at the peak, what, 15, 20%?

00:23:53.480 | Peak to 18?

00:23:54.480 | Peak to 18?

00:23:55.480 | Yeah.

00:23:56.480 | Yeah.

00:23:57.480 | I mean, it does seem like...

00:23:58.480 | And people really wanted No Labels to put up Manchin, maybe yourself or somebody.

00:24:00.560 | No, no, no.

00:24:01.560 | I'm overqualified.

00:24:02.560 | Okay.

00:24:03.560 | That's...

00:24:04.560 | Well, what's...

00:24:05.560 | Would you...

00:24:06.560 | Would you...

00:24:07.560 | What's next for you?

00:24:08.560 | Are you going to consider running, or you want to be in the private sector, or you just

00:24:10.920 | want to party on it?

00:24:11.920 | Yeah.

00:24:12.920 | I'm really excited about what's happening in the private sector right now.

00:24:14.920 | I mean, we've got industries in this country that are really pushing the edge on what's

00:24:19.160 | going to ensure that we're globally competitive and innovative for the future.

00:24:22.840 | And I'm really excited about it.

00:24:25.120 | And I believe that, regardless of what's happening in government, because, as I mentioned earlier,

00:24:30.560 | I do think it's going to get worse.

00:24:31.920 | Gridlock's going to get tougher, and blah, blah, blah.

00:24:34.240 | People are not interested in solving problems.

00:24:35.880 | They're just interested in tick-tock.

00:24:37.920 | And so, there's a real opportunity to move our country forward, despite the gridlock

00:24:45.040 | in government, through private industry.

00:24:48.440 | And that's where I want to work.

00:24:50.320 | Why are the Democrats so anti-capitalist?

00:24:51.640 | I don't understand, because that's where the money comes from.

00:24:54.960 | Yeah, I just don't understand Ms. Bent of being so...

00:24:57.920 | I don't either.

00:24:58.920 | I do not either.

00:24:59.920 | Yeah.

00:25:00.920 | And I'm fairly libertarian, I think, just at my base, most Arizonans are.

00:25:10.560 | I struggle with the idea of wanting to eliminate the private industry, because that is where

00:25:16.080 | the ideas come from, that's where the innovation comes from, and that's where the money comes

00:25:19.360 | from to fund the social programs that are important to protect the vulnerable in our

00:25:23.800 | country.

00:25:24.800 | That's what the United States was built on.

00:25:25.800 | Yeah.

00:25:26.800 | That's what the United States was built on, 250 years ago, and the ability to innovate,

00:25:31.200 | the opportunity for entrepreneurs to build, and for people to partake in that created

00:25:35.640 | productivity gains and ultimately prosperity for everyone, and it makes no sense to stall

00:25:40.000 | it.

00:25:41.000 | Yeah.

00:25:42.000 | It just doesn't make any sense.

00:25:43.000 | I don't understand it.

00:25:44.000 | Do you, when you look at the Israel-Palestine conflict, has any of this, is this expected,

00:25:50.560 | the way that there's this fissure that's built in America now, the fissure that's been created

00:25:54.280 | in Western Europe?

00:25:55.280 | It's been growing.

00:25:56.280 | It's been growing.

00:25:57.280 | You know, I'm quite close with the pro-Israel community, not just in Arizona, but nationally,

00:26:00.440 | because Israel is our only democratic partner in the Middle East, and is one of the best

00:26:04.560 | partners to the United States, and has been since its inception.

00:26:12.960 | But anti-Semitism has long been a part of our country's history, and it has been growing.

00:26:17.340 | The difference is, is that it was kind of quietish, you know, it was happening on campuses

00:26:21.160 | with the anti-BDS movement.

00:26:23.440 | It was growing in a number of circles on both the far left and the far right.

00:26:28.480 | And what we've seen, you know, in the last year, is that it's now okay to say the quiet

00:26:34.760 | part out loud.

00:26:36.360 | What's boggling to my mind, and I don't talk about this very often because it makes me

00:26:40.880 | sound really nerdy, but I actually have studied genocide.

00:26:45.180 | Like I did a PhD on the Rwandan genocide, right?

00:26:49.440 | Which is super nerdy, I know, but the narrative that somehow Israel are the oppressors, and

00:26:57.800 | Hamas are the liberators, and then there are folks who are actually using the term genocide

00:27:04.080 | to talk about the Israeli government and the Israeli people is so insane.

00:27:08.640 | Like, that's insane.

00:27:12.720 | I mean, talk about the worst form of gaslighting you can even imagine, right?

00:27:20.040 | Like, it's just insane.

00:27:21.940 | And yet, it's not a surprise because if you've been paying attention, it's been percolating

00:27:26.880 | and growing for years.

00:27:29.120 | And folks in the pro-Israel community know this, and they've been talking about it.

00:27:31.720 | It's just that no one was really listening because it was all whisper, whisper, whisper,

00:27:35.160 | or just, you know, kids on campuses.

00:27:37.400 | But now, what we see happening, especially at these so-called elite universities where

00:27:41.920 | not only has the pro-Hamas movement taken over, but the faculty, the folks who are responsible

00:27:49.560 | for the educational environment, have shown an unwillingness to speak the truth, which

00:27:56.560 | I think is just incredibly disturbing.

00:27:59.200 | Is there a path to find an empathetic solution for the Palestinians while also at the same

00:28:06.840 | time eliminating Hamas and just getting past this problem?

00:28:11.040 | The vast majority of Palestinian people are living in an environment in which they don't

00:28:15.320 | have control over their daily lives.

00:28:17.640 | They don't get access to the food and the water they need.

00:28:20.280 | They're being used as human shields and political weapons and physical weapons by Hamas.

00:28:26.540 | And so, they are in just a horrible, horrible situation.

00:28:30.280 | And so, the work that we've been trying to do to navigate how to get relief or evacuation

00:28:34.720 | for those individuals is really important and should not be eliminated or cut off.

00:28:39.400 | We also need to be much, much more careful about who we're giving the money and the food

00:28:44.280 | and the supplies to, because we know that the majority of it is being siphoned off by

00:28:47.760 | Hamas and used as a weapon of war.

00:28:50.640 | Is there a solution that can protect the innocent lives?

00:28:54.360 | Absolutely.

00:28:55.760 | Is standing with Hamas that solution?

00:28:58.440 | No.

00:28:59.440 | That's like doing a rally for ISIS.

00:29:01.400 | What the hell?

00:29:02.400 | Al-Qaeda's like, "How did we not see this?"

00:29:04.920 | Al-Qaeda's like, "We could have just gone to Harvard."

00:29:07.920 | How are young people at Harvard and Columbia and Yale, how come they don't, all of a sudden

00:29:13.920 | that distinction isn't obvious to them?

00:29:15.720 | It is hard for me to understand this.

00:29:17.240 | Now, I am lucky enough to live in Arizona, and we just don't have this.

00:29:21.700 | There's a very small amount of this, very small, on our campuses.

00:29:25.160 | But the vast majority of students in Arizona, these are like regular kids.

00:29:28.720 | These are not fancy kids.

00:29:30.280 | These are regular kids.

00:29:31.280 | They go to regular schools, they live a regular life, and they go to a regular state school.

00:29:35.920 | And so they don't wake up in the morning and think, "I think I want to support those terrorists

00:29:39.200 | over there in the Middle East."

00:29:42.080 | And so I think there's one of the problems that I see in academia, and full disclosure,

00:29:46.840 | I have been a professor at Arizona State University for 21 years.

00:29:51.040 | So I teach.

00:29:53.160 | I teach this semester.

00:29:54.320 | I've been teaching nonstop for 21 years.

00:29:57.640 | But I teach in a climate where my students are expected to be triggered or whatever that

00:30:03.760 | word is.

00:30:04.760 | I think that's a stupid word.

00:30:05.760 | But the bottom line is this.

00:30:07.160 | There's this whole thing moving across the country where we're like, "Oh, we can't have

00:30:10.040 | any triggering conversations.

00:30:11.040 | We can't have conversations that make you uncomfortable."

00:30:13.440 | That is the whole purpose of college.

00:30:15.040 | The whole idea of the university is to go learn about the universe.

00:30:17.840 | You should be confronted with ideas that are different than your own.

00:30:20.340 | You should interact with people who have views that are different than your own.

00:30:22.920 | You should be open to learning and listening and changing and growing.

00:30:26.400 | That is the reason that you go to university.

00:30:29.960 | And that is being taken away.

00:30:30.960 | Senator Sinema, thank you for being with us.

00:30:37.200 | (applause)

00:30:39.440 | (applause)

Senator Kyrsten Sinema | All-In Summit 2024

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