Does Joy Come After Suffering, Or in It?
00:00:00.000 | Hi, my name is Mary Lynn.
00:00:02.040 | I'm a wife, mother, and grandmother, and Women's Ministries Coordinator in Seattle, Washington.
00:00:07.760 | I've been a ministry partner with Desiring God for 14 years.
00:00:11.900 | You are listening to the Ask Pastor John Podcast with John Piper.
00:00:19.860 | Thank you, Mary Lynn, for that.
00:00:21.380 | We're going to chat with her in just a moment.
00:00:23.300 | But first, today's question comes to us from a listener named Matt, who emailed us this.
00:00:27.300 | "Hello, Pastor John.
00:00:28.300 | Thank you for taking my question.
00:00:29.300 | I know you often talk about joy inside of suffering, like Paul did, and that leads me
00:00:34.900 | to my question.
00:00:36.180 | In Psalm 30, verse 5, the psalmist says joy is found on the other side of suffering, weeping
00:00:40.900 | lasts the night, but joy comes with the morning.
00:00:43.960 | But Paul's testimony in the New Testament claims that he found joy together with his
00:00:48.660 | suffering.
00:00:49.900 | He said this in 2 Corinthians 6, verse 10, talking about being sorrowful, yet always
00:00:54.660 | rejoicing.
00:00:56.440 | So does joy follow suffering, or is there joy inside suffering?
00:01:01.220 | And did something change in the new covenant?"
00:01:04.060 | My mother was killed in a bus accident in Israel in 1974.
00:01:09.880 | I was 28 years old.
00:01:11.820 | My brother-in-law called me and told me that my mother was dead and my father was seriously
00:01:18.340 | injured and might not make it.
00:01:20.460 | That's all he knew.
00:01:22.580 | He would keep me posted.
00:01:24.220 | I hung up the phone.
00:01:25.460 | I told Noel what he told me.
00:01:28.220 | I went to the bedroom, knelt down by the bed, and wept for a long time.
00:01:34.900 | And in my weeping, simultaneous, not sequential, I was rejoicing.
00:01:43.860 | The weeping was owing to, of course, the overwhelming pain of sorrow and loss, massive loss, of
00:01:54.020 | one whom I so, so cherished.
00:01:57.260 | The joy was, "Thank you that I had such an amazing mom.
00:02:02.900 | Thank you that you gave her to me for 28 years.
00:02:06.600 | Thank you that evidently she didn't suffer very much.
00:02:09.940 | Thank you that she is in heaven and not in hell.
00:02:13.780 | Thank you for countless kindnesses she showed me growing up.
00:02:18.780 | Thank you that my father is still alive.
00:02:21.220 | Please save him.
00:02:22.580 | Thank you that I will see her again.
00:02:24.940 | Thank you, Jesus, for dying for us and covering her sin and my sin and his sin.
00:02:33.060 | Every sweet memory that tumbled to my mind made tears flow more and joy taste sweeter.
00:02:42.300 | So beyond any shadow of a doubt in my mind, it is not double talk to say sorrowful yet
00:02:50.740 | always rejoicing, sorrowful yet always in the very sorrow rejoicing.
00:02:56.740 | That's not stupid.
00:02:57.940 | That's not double talk.
00:02:59.460 | That's simultaneous reality.
00:03:01.500 | I've tasted it.
00:03:03.500 | And yet it is just as true that my night of weeping would give way in due time to a tearless
00:03:13.860 | joy.
00:03:15.540 | That's what I think the psalmist means when he says joy follows sorrow.
00:03:22.140 | There are waves of sorrow and pain and loss that break, big waves that break over the
00:03:33.540 | unshakable rock of Christian joy.
00:03:38.380 | And these waves submerge the laughter in the surging, feel it, the surging surf of weeping
00:03:48.460 | that wells up unbidden from your heart.
00:03:52.540 | But they don't dislodge the rock.
00:03:55.540 | And the waves recede in due time and the rock glistens again in the tearless sunlight.
00:04:04.220 | Now nobody should pay any attention to anything I just said, unless there's some good biblical
00:04:11.120 | basis for it.
00:04:14.340 | Experience doesn't settle things for us.
00:04:16.140 | So let me test what I just described as my experience with some scriptures.
00:04:21.060 | So Psalm 30, verse 5 says, "God's anger is but for a moment, his favor is for a lifetime.
00:04:30.420 | Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning."
00:04:36.340 | And Psalm 126, 5 and 6 says, "Those who sow in tears will reap with shouts of joy.
00:04:46.340 | He who goes out weeping, bearing the seed for sowing, shall come home with shouts of
00:04:53.180 | joy, bringing his sheaves with him."
00:04:55.860 | So clearly there is an experience of tears followed, followed, so sequence, by shouts
00:05:05.140 | of joy.
00:05:06.260 | And Matt wonders if there's a conflict between this and 2 Corinthians 6.10, which says, "We
00:05:13.660 | are sorrowful yet always rejoicing."
00:05:17.460 | So tears followed by shouts of joy in the Psalms, sequential, and joy in, always in,
00:05:27.100 | sorrow in 2 Corinthians, simultaneous.
00:05:30.660 | So Matt wonders if the difference is because one is before Christ, before the new covenant,
00:05:38.180 | he asks, and another comes after Christ, after the work on the cross.
00:05:42.260 | Is that why there's a difference between the Psalms and 2 Corinthians?
00:05:46.540 | And the answer is no, that's not why.
00:05:48.740 | We know that because the same sequential reality that the Psalms described is experienced in
00:05:55.700 | the New Testament.
00:05:57.300 | So let's look at a couple of those, because even as we look at the sequence, we find that
00:06:02.180 | even in this sequential description of sorrowful, then joy, there is also joy in the sorrow.
00:06:10.800 | So let's take John 16, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep
00:06:17.900 | and lament, you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy."
00:06:25.300 | So that's sequential, because I die and then live again, and then he makes the comparison,
00:06:31.540 | you're going to have joy.
00:06:33.360 | But here's what he says, "When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour
00:06:39.420 | has come."
00:06:40.420 | This is the analogy he's making.
00:06:42.580 | But when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish for joy that
00:06:50.220 | a human being has been born into the world.
00:06:52.540 | So sorrow in the anguish of labor pains, followed by joy.
00:06:59.340 | Now anguish is not owing to unbelief.
00:07:03.440 | The anguish is owing to pain.
00:07:06.740 | Even the season of pain gives way to the baby in the arms and brings a season of tearless
00:07:13.280 | joy.
00:07:14.620 | But even in the cries of labor pain, there is what Paul calls the joy of hope.
00:07:23.860 | He says in Romans 12, 12, "Rejoice in hope."
00:07:29.380 | And in Romans 5, 2, he says, "Rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
00:07:36.540 | Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings.
00:07:40.020 | So he puts the two right together in verse 2 and verse 3 of Romans 5.
00:07:45.560 | We rejoice in our sufferings, our labor pains, you might say, because all Christian suffering
00:07:51.900 | is like giving birth.
00:07:54.140 | God makes it bring an eternal weight of glory, he says in 2 Corinthians 4.
00:07:59.840 | So there is both sequential and simultaneous sorrow and joy.
00:08:06.140 | Paul gives another example of sequential and simultaneous sorrow and joy.
00:08:11.740 | When Christians had died in Thessalonica, Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4, 13, "We
00:08:19.300 | do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep," that is, those
00:08:24.260 | who have died, "that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope."
00:08:32.900 | So clearly they are grieving.
00:08:35.220 | They're grieving over the loss of the loved one.
00:08:39.500 | But the day will come when those tears no longer flow like that.
00:08:45.140 | That's sequence.
00:08:46.500 | There's the overwhelming grief and loss and weeping, and then the season comes where that's
00:08:53.660 | over.
00:08:54.660 | But even now, until that day of tearlessness, the tears are not like those who have no hope.
00:09:03.500 | And I take that to mean that Paul said in Romans 5, 2, "We rejoice in hope."
00:09:11.420 | The hope of glory does not contradict the tears that are flowing at the very same time
00:09:18.700 | of the joy of hope.
00:09:22.340 | It doesn't even dry the tears, not immediately.
00:09:26.780 | But our joy is unshaken, immovable by the tears.
00:09:31.300 | The rock of joy is submerged in grief, but it is not dislodged, overthrown, or removed.
00:09:42.100 | Here's one other passage that may give the key to how there can be both sequential and
00:09:49.620 | simultaneous experiences of sorrow and joy.
00:09:54.060 | John describes the age to come in Revelation 21, 4 like this, "God will wipe away every
00:10:01.660 | tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor
00:10:08.900 | crying, nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."
00:10:15.980 | So here he says that there's sorrow-joy sequence between this fallen age and that
00:10:25.020 | perfect age.
00:10:26.580 | Here joy—I mean, here suffering and pain, and there joy.
00:10:30.880 | This is the age of tears and mourning and crying.
00:10:35.560 | In that age, all tears wiped away, no more crying, no more pain.
00:10:41.260 | But notice, tears are correlated with death.
00:10:46.820 | God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more.
00:10:51.100 | And crying is correlated with pain, nor crying, nor pain any more.
00:10:57.820 | So I take this to mean that Christian tears and Christian crying are not owing to loss
00:11:05.760 | of hope, nor owing to the dislodging of unshakable joy.
00:11:11.740 | Rather, tears are owing to death, and crying is owing to pain.
00:11:18.980 | We cry because it hurts.
00:11:21.940 | There's real pain in the world, physical pain, emotional pain, and there's no stopping
00:11:27.640 | the tears, right?
00:11:28.920 | When they come, they come.
00:11:29.920 | You don't say, "Oh, I'm not supposed to have these."
00:11:33.020 | No, it hurts.
00:11:34.300 | And hurting and joy are not opposites.
00:11:39.460 | They're not contrary.
00:11:40.620 | They can exist at the same time.
00:11:43.100 | That's what creates the sequential experience of sorrow and joy.
00:11:47.580 | Christian joy doesn't mean we don't feel pain.
00:11:51.520 | And when we feel it, tears come.
00:11:54.740 | We don't decide for them to come.
00:11:56.500 | They just come.
00:11:58.380 | And the psalmist is saying, "They will be wiped away."
00:12:03.740 | And Paul is saying, "They may for a season submerge the shining face and laughter of
00:12:11.540 | the boulder of joy in Christ like surging waves do, but they don't dislodge the rock
00:12:19.860 | of joy."
00:12:20.860 | We are sorrowful, yet always rejoicing.
00:12:24.260 | Yeah, thank you, Pastor John.
00:12:26.740 | I appreciate that clarity.
00:12:28.500 | And before we go, today I want you to meet my friend Mary Lynn in Seattle.
00:12:33.060 | She joins us over the phone.
00:12:34.860 | Mary Lynn, thank you for your time today.
00:12:36.220 | You are a gift to the ministry of DG.
00:12:38.840 | We met in Seattle in March of this year as your city was closing down for the pandemic.
00:12:43.140 | It was surreal.
00:12:44.140 | It was memorable.
00:12:45.740 | It was an unforgettable trip, all made possible by your heroic efforts on the ground to coordinate
00:12:50.460 | some in-person DG events for us so I could teach on technology.
00:12:55.340 | And it only happened because of you and your husband, and DG's own Peter Hedstrom played
00:13:00.980 | a big role in that too.
00:13:02.380 | So it ended up being a pretty amazing trip overall.
00:13:05.640 | So on the one hand, you roll up your sleeves, you physically serve DG in the Seattle region,
00:13:09.500 | but you're also a ministry partner by financially supporting the ministry.
00:13:14.180 | Mary Lynn, talk to us about why.
00:13:15.860 | Why do you support Desiring God?
00:13:19.180 | We truly love the ministry.
00:13:21.060 | All of Desiring God's resources have been the quintessential for all seasons ministry
00:13:25.960 | to us.
00:13:27.540 | And I would start by saying if I'm needing a spiritual or emotional pick me up, it doesn't
00:13:31.780 | take long to scroll through and find an article that's going to redirect my thoughts and even
00:13:36.340 | my emotions toward Christ, toward the gospel and eternal things in a way that refreshes
00:13:41.860 | my soul.
00:13:43.060 | And I think I would say in a way that's so far removed from duty rather that really makes
00:13:48.620 | my returning and rest to a faithful Savior a true delight.
00:13:52.540 | And it has simultaneously met the needs of our whole family.
00:13:55.720 | It's been a unifying force, honestly.
00:13:58.020 | We have a family group chat and every one of us five has at one time or another posted
00:14:02.180 | a DG article with a must read written above it.
00:14:04.980 | And it becomes a shared experience as a family, a shared growth.
00:14:08.340 | And when someone close to us has had questions, we look it up on DG.
00:14:11.860 | Or if we've set up a weekly prayer time with friends, we have chosen to listen to sometimes
00:14:17.260 | an hour sermon if we have the time, sometimes just a quicker look at the book or an APJ.
00:14:22.580 | We actually did look at the book for our small group weekly for a year.
00:14:26.620 | And if we're driving in the car with a 15 or 20 minute drive time, we can fit in a quick
00:14:30.780 | listen and honestly, it just changes the whole day or maybe the conversation that we are
00:14:35.300 | having.
00:14:36.300 | But invariably, there's just the perfect thing and I can find something on point and priceless
00:14:41.700 | in about two and a half minutes.
00:14:43.060 | Well, you clearly make good use of DG resources.
00:14:46.380 | I appreciate that.
00:14:48.300 | And that's one way a lot of people can help DG is getting our resources into the hands
00:14:52.540 | of a lot of people in their lives who need them.
00:14:55.140 | Mary Lynn, what would you say to those who are listening right now to the podcast who
00:14:58.540 | are not donors to the ministry?
00:15:00.780 | Maybe they've been blessed by DG resources for years and now they're beginning to realize
00:15:05.100 | the expense of the ministry and are now starting to consider the part that they could play
00:15:10.860 | in helping us make and spread new resources around the world through a gift, even a small
00:15:15.940 | reoccurring monthly gift.
00:15:17.620 | To them, Mary Lynn, what would you say?
00:15:19.580 | I would say one of the greatest blessings you can give yourself is to support Desiring
00:15:26.060 | God Ministries.
00:15:27.380 | I call it the best kept secret, the ministry that for years, it never occurred to me how
00:15:31.860 | my financial input was needed for them to flourish and add to their resources.
00:15:35.860 | And yet I was being given riches from their work almost daily.
00:15:39.300 | And now the more genuinely godly people at Desiring God, I get to know and love.
00:15:44.260 | And the more I hear about their outreach around the world, the more of a joyful privilege
00:15:49.020 | it is to give abundantly.
00:15:50.860 | Thank you, Mary Lynn, for everything you do for the ministry.
00:15:53.380 | It's a lot.
00:15:54.460 | And if you'd like to join Mary Lynn and join us so that we can make more DG resources and
00:15:59.140 | spread them around the globe, you can join us right now.
00:16:01.340 | Go to DesiringGod.org/donate.
00:16:04.180 | That's DesiringGod.org/donate.
00:16:08.140 | We appreciate it.
00:16:09.140 | I'm Tony Reinke.
00:16:10.140 | We'll see you on Monday.
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