Is the Threat of Eternal Punishment Manipulation?
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | - We have a full week of new episodes scheduled,
00:00:07.240 | so let's dive in Pastor John.
00:00:09.440 | Podcast listener Connor Hodges writes in to ask this,
00:00:12.560 | "Pastor John, it seems odd to me
00:00:14.640 | "that the command of Christ looks like this,
00:00:17.160 | "pursue joy in me or face eternal punishment.
00:00:22.160 | "If that was ever the case in this world,
00:00:24.280 | "it would seem outrageous.
00:00:26.140 | "For example, if a husband says to his wife,
00:00:28.520 | "you better love me above all else or I will cast you out,
00:00:31.960 | "then it wouldn't really be true love from the wife
00:00:34.460 | "if she knew her only other option is to be cast out.
00:00:38.320 | "I know this is wrong thinking,
00:00:39.880 | "but I'm having a hard time wrestling
00:00:41.400 | "with this type of analogy."
00:00:43.280 | What would you say to Connor, Pastor John?
00:00:45.400 | - I would point out that there are three different,
00:00:52.080 | though not separated, issues in what he just said.
00:00:57.280 | Number one, does the Bible teach that the failure
00:01:02.280 | to delight in God results in eternal punishment?
00:01:05.960 | Number two, if it does, does the analogy of a human husband
00:01:10.960 | setting up the same dynamic with his wife
00:01:15.080 | illumine or cloud that reality?
00:01:17.880 | Third, the way you express the connection
00:01:21.560 | between our failure to delight in God
00:01:24.560 | and our eternal loss makes a huge difference
00:01:27.720 | in whether the truth can sound acceptable or not.
00:01:32.560 | So those are three huge issues,
00:01:36.400 | and they got all jumbled together in that question.
00:01:39.920 | So I'm gonna take them one at a time,
00:01:41.280 | 'cause the first one is key.
00:01:43.240 | Number one, does the Bible teach that the failure
00:01:47.180 | to delight in God results in eternal punishment?
00:01:51.680 | So let's start with 1 Corinthians 16, 22.
00:01:54.720 | If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed.
00:01:59.720 | Now, here's the most explicit biblical connection
00:02:04.320 | between the failure to love Christ
00:02:05.940 | and the punishment of a divine curse.
00:02:08.640 | How easy it would have been for Paul to write,
00:02:12.800 | if anyone does not trust the Lord, let him be accursed.
00:02:17.800 | In other words, we all know that salvation is by faith,
00:02:21.240 | and so that would not have been so jarring,
00:02:23.960 | but that's not what he said.
00:02:26.160 | I'm not saying that loving Jesus
00:02:28.760 | only means delighting in him,
00:02:30.780 | but I am saying delighting him, in him,
00:02:33.920 | treasuring him, preferring him over others,
00:02:37.400 | being glad to be with him,
00:02:39.500 | these are essential to what it means to love him.
00:02:44.500 | When Jesus said, "If you love me,
00:02:48.040 | "you will keep my commandments,"
00:02:49.400 | he did not mean that keeping the commandments was the love.
00:02:52.840 | He meant love empowers,
00:02:54.880 | enables the keeping of the commandments.
00:02:56.880 | So love is prior to, it's an internal heart issue
00:03:01.200 | of cleaving to Jesus as your greatest treasure.
00:03:05.080 | So my conclusion from 1 Corinthians 16, 22 is yes,
00:03:10.080 | the Bible does teach that failure to love God,
00:03:15.520 | delight in God, treasure God,
00:03:17.480 | cleave to God, enjoy God,
00:03:19.440 | be satisfied in God, embrace God
00:03:22.080 | as your supreme delight results in eternal punishment.
00:03:27.080 | You can add Deuteronomy 28, 47,
00:03:31.800 | where it makes the connection between joylessness
00:03:35.400 | and punishment explicit,
00:03:37.800 | "Because you did not serve the Lord your God
00:03:39.820 | "with joyfulness and gladness of heart,
00:03:42.840 | "therefore you will serve your enemies."
00:03:45.120 | So here's the connection between the absence of joy in God
00:03:49.160 | as you serve him and the threat of suffering explicitly.
00:03:54.160 | Here's one more text on this main question.
00:03:56.920 | 2 Thessalonians 2.10, Paul describes who will perish
00:04:01.920 | in the end times when the lawless one does his false
00:04:07.480 | and lying signs and wonders.
00:04:10.360 | He comes, it says, with wicked deception
00:04:13.480 | for those who are perishing
00:04:15.680 | because they refuse to love the truth and be saved.
00:04:20.680 | So Paul shows us that in his mind,
00:04:26.860 | a saving embrace of the truth includes cherishing the truth,
00:04:32.360 | loving the truth, treasuring the truth,
00:04:36.160 | delighting in the truth.
00:04:38.000 | And when it's not there, he says, we perish.
00:04:41.680 | And so, yes, the Bible teaches that the failure
00:04:46.680 | to delight in God or Christ or the truth of the gospel
00:04:51.720 | results in eternal punishment.
00:04:53.720 | That's the basic question, and I think the Bible says yes.
00:04:57.640 | Second question, if that's true,
00:05:00.880 | does the analogy of a human husband
00:05:03.880 | setting up the same dynamic with his wife
00:05:07.040 | illumine or cloud that reality?
00:05:10.360 | Is it true that a human husband can set up the terms,
00:05:14.680 | if you don't delight in me, I will cast you out?
00:05:17.400 | Is that a good analogy?
00:05:19.280 | Does it shed light on the truth we just found?
00:05:22.260 | No, it doesn't.
00:05:24.400 | The analogy is not helpful for two reasons.
00:05:28.200 | One, because of the crucial difference
00:05:30.360 | between God and any husband.
00:05:32.040 | God is the source and sum of all that is good and true
00:05:37.520 | and beautiful in the universe,
00:05:40.480 | and God is infinite, infinitely beautiful,
00:05:43.000 | infinitely valuable, and the measure
00:05:45.680 | of all that is desirable.
00:05:47.720 | No husband can talk like that.
00:05:49.000 | No husband can say that to his wife or to anybody.
00:05:52.200 | It's just off the charts.
00:05:53.780 | God is so superior in every way to any husband
00:05:57.240 | that it doesn't click, it doesn't work
00:06:00.200 | to make him the analogy.
00:06:01.440 | And here's the second reason.
00:06:03.120 | God has made other commands about marriage,
00:06:06.960 | namely that divorce is not permitted,
00:06:11.360 | especially on such grounds as that.
00:06:14.720 | Like, she doesn't delight in me anymore, I'm leaving.
00:06:17.920 | I'm done with her.
00:06:19.000 | The Bible says you can't say that, husband.
00:06:21.560 | That's not an option for a wife
00:06:23.600 | who has stopped delighting in you.
00:06:26.440 | Therefore, no husband can make that threat
00:06:29.940 | in a way that is analogous to God.
00:06:33.120 | It doesn't help to set up a husband-wife
00:06:36.600 | as an illustration of God's demand
00:06:38.700 | that the world love him above all things
00:06:42.280 | because he is great above all things.
00:06:45.440 | Husbands can't talk like that.
00:06:47.360 | So here's my last question.
00:06:49.300 | The way you express the connection here
00:06:53.760 | between our failure to delight in God
00:06:56.440 | and our eternal lostness makes a huge difference
00:07:00.480 | as to whether it sounds acceptable.
00:07:03.400 | Words, you know this, Tony, words are wonderful things.
00:07:08.320 | They are emotionally laden and express
00:07:13.100 | and create emotional realities.
00:07:15.040 | They create emotional realities, not only express them.
00:07:19.180 | As they are spoken, sometimes those emotions
00:07:22.960 | are all out of proportion with reality.
00:07:25.840 | For example, what if we create the caricature
00:07:29.880 | of God saying with a sneer, like a pirate ship,
00:07:34.680 | Captain, okay, all you miserable sinners
00:07:38.720 | whom I loathe in my justice,
00:07:41.000 | if you don't this instant feel happy about me,
00:07:43.800 | then I'll stop taking any pleasure in you at all
00:07:46.960 | and throw you overboard.
00:07:48.800 | Well, you can set it up like that, right?
00:07:51.160 | You can use language like that.
00:07:53.800 | I mean, people do this all the time
00:07:55.860 | in theological debates and political debates.
00:07:58.880 | Positions are restated almost all the time
00:08:02.680 | in ways that the person being represented
00:08:05.640 | would never accept, just never accept.
00:08:08.560 | And yet they are used to then make the position
00:08:11.280 | look absolutely ludicrous.
00:08:13.920 | But let's just try it turned around the other way.
00:08:16.460 | Use a different set of language.
00:08:17.680 | What if God said this, from a throne
00:08:21.760 | of highest brightness and beauty,
00:08:24.800 | surrounded by 200 million angels
00:08:29.720 | in a voice of deepest, serious, and manifest patience,
00:08:34.720 | because we are not at this moment
00:08:37.560 | consumed by the fire of his holiness.
00:08:40.800 | What if he said, you are my creature.
00:08:43.520 | I made you to share in and display my glory.
00:08:48.520 | I created you so that your greatest joy
00:08:53.000 | and my greatest glory would be as one.
00:08:57.200 | And you would never have to choose
00:08:59.520 | between honoring me and being eternally happy.
00:09:03.840 | I sent my only son to die in the place of sinners like you
00:09:08.840 | so that if you would turn to me
00:09:11.880 | and repent of your idolatrous love of other things,
00:09:16.260 | I will forgive you.
00:09:19.080 | I command you, therefore, as your creator
00:09:22.120 | and as the redeemer over all the world,
00:09:24.800 | turn and see me for who I really am
00:09:28.280 | and put me in your supreme place of affection.
00:09:33.280 | Receive me in Jesus Christ as your savior and Lord
00:09:38.760 | and the supreme delight of your heart.
00:09:40.320 | If you do, you will have everlasting joy.
00:09:44.680 | And if you don't, you will have everlasting pain.
00:09:49.000 | Now, I just submit, that's not ludicrous.
00:09:52.360 | That's the gospel.
00:09:53.400 | - Thank you, Pastor John, so good.
00:09:56.840 | On this topic of eternal judgment,
00:10:00.120 | there are many hard questions to ask
00:10:02.960 | and hard questions to answer.
00:10:05.120 | And this is one episode of several on the topic
00:10:07.760 | that we have recorded.
00:10:09.000 | And for more, open up the free mobile app
00:10:11.560 | and search for the others, and you'll find them.
00:10:13.400 | Like episode number 450,
00:10:15.080 | Does God Predestine People to Hell?
00:10:17.320 | And episode number 497,
00:10:19.560 | Is God Less Glorified in the Judgment of Sinners?
00:10:23.200 | Well, the questions are hard and they do not get any easier.
00:10:26.480 | Tomorrow, Pastor John will field a question
00:10:28.480 | from a sorrowful couple in North Carolina
00:10:31.400 | who recently lost their septuplets before birth.
00:10:35.000 | And they wanna know if they will one day meet
00:10:36.840 | each of those seven children in heaven.
00:10:39.840 | I'm your host, Tony Ranke.
00:10:40.720 | We'll see you tomorrow.
00:10:42.160 | (gentle music)
00:10:44.760 | (gentle music)
00:10:47.360 | [BLANK_AUDIO]