Bogleheads® Chapter Series – The Mad Fientist Returns!
00:00:00.000 | Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series.
00:00:04.100 | This episode was hosted by the Bogleheads Starting Out Life Stage Chapter and recorded
00:00:08.480 | January 31st, 2024.
00:00:11.420 | It features blogger, The Mad Scientist discussing financial independence while becoming a recent
00:00:16.940 | parent and homeowner.
00:00:19.320 | Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's philosophy for attaining financial independence.
00:00:23.920 | This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as personalized
00:00:28.120 | investment advice.
00:00:31.800 | For folks not familiar with your blog or podcast series, can you just give a brief intro about
00:00:37.800 | yourself?
00:00:38.800 | Sure.
00:00:39.800 | Yeah.
00:00:40.800 | I started The Mad Scientist back in 2012.
00:00:43.480 | Prior to that, I had always been really good with money and always interested in money
00:00:48.880 | and very frugal naturally in saving money.
00:00:52.400 | When I got a good job, I didn't really know what I was going to do with it until I stumbled
00:00:56.120 | upon a blog called Get Rich Slowly and I was like, "Yeah, that's what I want to do."
00:01:01.240 | And then a few years into reading that, I then found Early Retirement Extreme and that
00:01:06.760 | just changed everything because I'm not big into possessions or material things.
00:01:11.960 | So I didn't really know what I was going to do with the money I was saving for all those
00:01:15.840 | years.
00:01:16.840 | And then reading that just blew my mind because I was like, "Oh, retirement's not an age.
00:01:22.680 | It's just a math equation with your expenses and your income in that equation."
00:01:30.080 | So I was just all in on that idea.
00:01:33.200 | I started The Mad Scientist because I'm also naturally a bit lazy, so I sort of needed
00:01:40.120 | external motivation to do the research that I knew I could do to get to FI quicker.
00:01:46.240 | But I knew that I would probably want to do it if it was just me doing it.
00:01:49.400 | So I was like, "Well, I'll start a blog," and then having the need to put out content
00:01:55.560 | would force me to research the stuff that I thought would make me reach FI faster.
00:02:00.680 | And at the time, I thought that I was going to be some master investor.
00:02:04.760 | But pretty quickly into my research, I pretty much fell into the bobo head's way of doing
00:02:09.920 | things and realized, "Well, there's not really too much optimization I'm going to be doing
00:02:14.240 | on that front."
00:02:15.240 | So then that eventually led into sort of like tax optimization for early retirees and people
00:02:23.320 | pursuing early retirement.
00:02:25.520 | And that's sort of what made my blog what it is today, I guess, the popularity in those
00:02:30.640 | early days with a lot of that tax optimization stuff specifically for five people.
00:02:36.080 | And at the same time, I also started a podcast because I wanted an excuse to talk to people
00:02:41.960 | who did what I wanted to do.
00:02:44.360 | So just dumb luck, my very first guest was Mr. Money Mustache because he was a software
00:02:49.760 | developer like me, and I was like, "Well, I want to talk to a software developer who's
00:02:53.040 | done it."
00:02:54.040 | And that happened to be one of his first interviews that he ever did, and it was my very first
00:03:00.000 | interview.
00:03:01.000 | But then obviously he exploded and then brought me up with them because when people would
00:03:07.880 | Google Mr. Money Mustache, my podcast would come up, and then that's sort of how that
00:03:11.560 | took off.
00:03:13.120 | And I started that back in 2012 as well.
00:03:14.920 | So all these things have been going for a while, but I'm not very prolific.
00:03:18.920 | So there's still like less than 100 episodes, even though I've been doing it for 12 years.
00:03:26.120 | But yeah, I think that's probably a good summary for now.
00:03:30.000 | Okay.
00:03:31.000 | Thanks for that.
00:03:32.000 | And I mentioned this earlier, I think in terms of the quality of your stuff, folks would
00:03:36.800 | probably take quality over quantity any day.
00:03:39.680 | So folks who aren't familiar with Brandon's blog or podcast, we highly encourage you to
00:03:45.360 | check it out.
00:03:46.360 | And I'll also add that Brandon's been a guest on other podcasts, so that it's not just him
00:03:52.280 | interviewing, sometimes the tables are turned, and it's not limited to personal finance.
00:03:56.560 | There's a lot of self-improvement in the space.
00:03:58.480 | So James Clear, author of the very popular Atomic Habits, was one of your guests, which
00:04:03.400 | is pretty amazing, right?
00:04:04.960 | He's like a personal hero for a lot of folks.
00:04:08.120 | So fast forward now, Brandon, you've been FI for a long time, and some major life events
00:04:16.920 | very recently that Miriam touched on.
00:04:19.320 | So why don't we start with parenting, how's that been?
00:04:23.400 | And on the blog, you mentioned that years ago, you never envisioned having a kid or
00:04:29.880 | even that you didn't want a kid.
00:04:31.720 | So can you talk a bit about the transition from not wanting a kid to having a kid and
00:04:37.400 | how FI was a part of that decision?
00:04:39.760 | Yeah, it was a huge part of it, actually, because in my 30s, I was very focused on doing
00:04:46.720 | a lot of things that I had always wanted to do.
00:04:49.560 | I'd set out to do big goals, personal goals, and FI being one of them, and just lots of
00:04:57.000 | different fields, really, just things that I thought I'd always wanted to do.
00:05:00.640 | So the thought of having kids, especially when I was still working, was just like, how
00:05:04.600 | could that, I don't know how I would juggle all that.
00:05:07.440 | So it seems, looking back, it was just a selfish thing back then.
00:05:13.440 | But it wasn't just that, because I just never saw myself as having kids.
00:05:19.680 | So it was like, why would I give away all this free time that I really need to do all
00:05:26.440 | these things I really want to do, when I don't even really want the end result?
00:05:31.160 | So it was only since we started having nieces and nephews and started becoming a big part
00:05:35.880 | of their lives and seeing them grow up that I was like, "Whoa, kids are actually really
00:05:39.000 | fun and they're crazy."
00:05:41.120 | And yeah, I started coming around to the idea.
00:05:46.000 | And my wife was always more into it than I was.
00:05:49.760 | And then as we started getting older, she really settled on the fact that, yeah, she
00:05:55.000 | definitely wanted to be a parent.
00:05:56.960 | And so after FI, I was like, "Okay, this is actually doable now, because I do have
00:06:02.960 | time to do all this stuff that I'm wanting to do."
00:06:06.000 | But then I could also, yeah, potentially not have as much free time and still be able to
00:06:12.320 | cope with it.
00:06:14.640 | And then only over the past maybe two or three years, once, thanks to FI, I was able to accomplish
00:06:20.880 | a lot of the things that were on that list of things that I was really wanting to accomplish,
00:06:24.520 | but not only was I okay with the idea, but I really wanted to do it and to have kids
00:06:33.560 | because, yeah, I felt like I'd done all the things I wanted to do, and then I sort of
00:06:39.520 | wanted to start living vicariously through a little person and sharing all these things
00:06:45.960 | with them.
00:06:46.960 | So, yeah, it's been a really great change, and I'm glad we did it the way we did it,
00:06:54.840 | because I think I would have been super stressed out had we had a kid 10 years ago, whereas
00:06:59.480 | now it's just like, yeah, just absolutely loving it even more than I would have expected.
00:07:05.200 | And yeah, FI plays a huge part in that.
00:07:07.920 | I don't know how working parents do it, or single working parents, it just blows my mind.
00:07:12.760 | We're exhausted enough, and our time is consumed enough without having full-time jobs to worry
00:07:19.120 | about as well.
00:07:20.120 | So, yeah, it's been a complete 180 in the best possible way, and yeah, couldn't be more
00:07:30.000 | happy with the decision to go ahead and do it.
00:07:34.000 | Excellent.
00:07:35.000 | So, I'm sure you prepared a lot.
00:07:37.080 | I know that folks say it's impossible to fully prepare for parenting, so can you share some
00:07:43.480 | of the surprises, both good and bad, and some of the things that preparing made so much
00:07:49.360 | easier, and then what would it have been hard to prepare for no matter what?
00:07:54.640 | Yeah, so my normal way of having a spreadsheet for everything and preparing and running all
00:08:01.200 | the different scenarios and numbers, I didn't do that with this, because I really had no
00:08:04.600 | idea what to expect.
00:08:05.600 | So, I've sort of been winging it and just hoping my wife knows better than I do in the
00:08:10.840 | cases where I don't really know what I'm doing, because it was like a week before our son
00:08:17.280 | was due, and I was like, I read books on everything, and I haven't read one parenting book.
00:08:23.080 | I feel so underprepared, and she's like, you'll be fine, we'll just do it, and it'll be great.
00:08:30.080 | And so far, so far it has.
00:08:32.880 | I think I did read one parenting book since then, I can't even remember if I learned anything.
00:08:38.960 | But yeah, it's been weird in the sense that, yeah, my normal method of just overanalyzing
00:08:43.880 | and overpreparing hasn't been the case for this.
00:08:50.160 | I would say we spend less as parents, which was maybe a surprise, since going out to eat
00:08:59.000 | is often more hassle than it's worth these days and things like that, and trips are exhausting.
00:09:03.840 | So when you get done with one trip, you're not immediately planning the second one like
00:09:07.480 | I was when we were single, and not single, but childless in our 20s and 30s, and just
00:09:14.360 | planning the next trip as soon as we landed.
00:09:16.240 | So yeah, it's a little bit more exhausting, which is why home ownership, I guess, is feeling
00:09:23.280 | so great right now, because we have a really nice home to go back to, and we're loving
00:09:28.640 | it, and definitely nesting more than we were at any other point in our lives.
00:09:33.560 | So yeah, I'd say that's maybe the biggest surprise, because you hear how expensive kids
00:09:37.760 | are.
00:09:38.760 | And yeah, I've found the opposite so far.
00:09:41.800 | Well, yeah, we don't have to pay for daycare, which I think is the primary cost for a lot
00:09:46.880 | of working parents.
00:09:47.880 | But yeah, everything else has been, I would say, we're spending less these days, because
00:09:53.480 | we're just homebodies and doing things in our local neighborhood, because it's much
00:09:57.640 | easier to throw them into a stroller and walk around somewhere than it is to do anything
00:10:03.080 | more major than that.
00:10:05.320 | That's so interesting, because I was wondering, let's say a lot of bogleheads are naturally
00:10:10.200 | frugal.
00:10:11.200 | You mentioned you're a natural saver.
00:10:13.040 | But then I was wondering if having a kid, suddenly there's this inherent change, like
00:10:19.240 | you want what's best for your kids, and is there some instinct to shower the kid with
00:10:25.360 | every possible thing?
00:10:26.360 | And do we equate expensive with best, and is there a shift in the FI mindset or the
00:10:33.160 | frugal mindset once you have kids?
00:10:36.240 | There is a little bit, but I know stuff doesn't bring happiness, something I've learned throughout
00:10:42.640 | my entire life.
00:10:43.640 | So we don't shower him with anything really, but that's because we also have crazy grandparents
00:10:48.760 | that don't stop showering him with stuff, no matter how much we ask them to stop.
00:10:54.080 | So we haven't bought him anything.
00:10:56.280 | But it has shifted my mindset as far as having a really nice, safe place to live.
00:11:02.320 | I'm not a car guy.
00:11:03.320 | I hate cars.
00:11:04.320 | We have a Honda Jazz that's a 2012 Honda Jazz that I bought for three grand, and it's been
00:11:09.480 | great since we bought it.
00:11:12.680 | But we're going to need a bigger car, and I think I'll probably spend more than I normally
00:11:19.120 | do, which is $3,000 to $5,000 on some used car, because I think I'll just buy a newer
00:11:25.280 | one with more safety features, and whether or not that actually matters, that's one way
00:11:32.680 | that I feel like I've changed in my mindset, where it's like, "Okay, well, we have the
00:11:36.760 | money I can spend to get a newer car that has a higher safety rating, and that'll make
00:11:43.320 | me feel better when I'm driving it."
00:11:44.780 | But besides that, those are the only two things.
00:11:47.000 | It's like, yeah, a nice place to live and have him grow up, and then yeah, just a safer
00:11:52.160 | car.
00:11:53.160 | But no, no desire to buy him fancy clothes or all these toys or big things for the front
00:12:02.200 | yard or anything like that, so far, anyway.
00:12:04.800 | It's great to hear kids do not have to be super expensive.
00:12:08.000 | I think that challenges a lot of the societal mindset.
00:12:11.560 | So it's a good segue into this other huge life event.
00:12:16.600 | You were, a long time ago, a homeowner, and in a lot of your blogs and podcasts, you talk
00:12:23.200 | about renting, and sometimes there's a strong argument against buying, which is counterculture,
00:12:32.480 | at least in America, a lot of people are encouraged to buy.
00:12:36.000 | So can you share how you went from renting to buying, and if you can recap for folks
00:12:43.320 | who aren't familiar with the case against buying?
00:12:46.440 | Sure.
00:12:47.440 | Yeah.
00:12:48.440 | So we owned a house, we bought a house back in 2004, 2005.
00:12:56.280 | We were right out of college, didn't have any money.
00:12:59.000 | I think we had a 95% mortgage, and we borrowed some money off of my wife's parents, or my
00:13:05.240 | girlfriend at the time, not wife, for some of the down payment and things like that.
00:13:09.840 | So we were totally unprepared for a house at that stage, but we got super lucky.
00:13:14.440 | We did it up a little bit.
00:13:16.120 | So I guess it was a live-in flip before I knew that that was a thing, but we did it
00:13:21.600 | up while we lived there.
00:13:22.600 | And then we sold it in 2007, right as the whole financial world was collapsing.
00:13:27.520 | So we ended up making 50% on that house in two and a half years.
00:13:32.920 | So that was a big thing for us when we were in our early 20s.
00:13:39.000 | So that was a good learning experience.
00:13:43.040 | We did a lot of maintenance and things, and did the fixing up ourselves.
00:13:47.320 | Then we bought another house in Vermont in 2011, I believe, and we only stayed there
00:13:53.400 | until 2014.
00:13:54.840 | We took a little bit of a loss on that.
00:13:56.800 | We thought we would make money because the whole financial real estate market and everything
00:14:01.640 | collapsed, and we figured we were buying on a good price, but still went down a little
00:14:09.360 | bit by the time we sold.
00:14:11.360 | But that was when I was super frugal, super into FI, and I was just like every penny was
00:14:19.440 | just going to my savings investment because I wanted to hit FI as soon as possible.
00:14:23.960 | So as I was saying to Miriam before we started the chat here, I don't think I should have
00:14:30.520 | been a homeowner until now, to be honest, because I was so hyper-focused on FI that
00:14:36.960 | any unexpected expense just stressed me out completely.
00:14:41.860 | So having a home that has loads of unexpected expenses was not probably good.
00:14:46.760 | So this is the actual first time I'm enjoying being a homeowner.
00:14:50.280 | So we just bought a house last year, and I love it.
00:14:57.660 | I still am not good at maintenance and things.
00:14:59.780 | So luckily Jill, my wife, takes care of that.
00:15:03.080 | So I can't handle when unexpected things happen and I need to deal with them.
00:15:10.300 | Like I said before, I like planning, and I like having some sort of structure and stuff.
00:15:15.700 | So if something comes out of left field, then I'm like, "I just can't do anything."
00:15:20.860 | So luckily Jill doesn't mind calling plumbers and things if we need something fixed.
00:15:28.220 | So I'm not handy at all, and I have no desire to learn those skills, to be honest.
00:15:34.560 | Maybe someday I will, but there's a lot of other things I'd much rather be working on.
00:15:41.780 | So I'm not a great homeowner, but I'm enjoying this time way more than the other two times.
00:15:48.100 | And yeah, renting was great.
00:15:49.340 | Renting allowed us to live in Edinburgh for a lot cheaper than we would have had we tried
00:15:54.420 | to buy.
00:15:55.760 | We got to experience lots of different parts of Edinburgh as renters.
00:16:00.440 | We saved a lot of money on our travels because we would just move out of our rental and then
00:16:06.220 | travel for three months.
00:16:07.220 | So travel wasn't an additional expense.
00:16:09.300 | It was just another form of living expenses, which usually was a lot lower than living
00:16:13.780 | in Edinburgh because we were in Southeast Asia or something.
00:16:17.420 | So yeah, I think renting's a fantastic option.
00:16:21.540 | In Scotland, it's great because they're not all furnished rentals, but there's a lot of
00:16:26.380 | furnished rentals.
00:16:27.740 | So we haven't owned furniture since we sold our Vermont house in 2014.
00:16:32.480 | So yeah, all of our assets are pretty much invested, so those have just all been growing
00:16:40.540 | and we're only now accumulating stuff in the house.
00:16:44.500 | So I think, yeah, I think renting is still a great option for a lot of different people
00:16:50.820 | and it certainly was for us, but I am happy to have splurged and that's what I consider
00:16:57.060 | it.
00:16:58.060 | It's not, it's like a splurge.
00:16:59.060 | This is me using the savings I built up to have a splurge on something that I'm really
00:17:04.340 | enjoying and we are really enjoying it, so it's been great.
00:17:08.500 | So should folks who are considering buying reframe this idea of a house as an investment
00:17:14.660 | versus, I mean, the classic line is rent is throwing money away versus building equity.
00:17:20.580 | Are there things people should rethink about that?
00:17:24.220 | Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:26.100 | Rent is not throwing money away.
00:17:27.820 | You're getting shelter.
00:17:28.820 | That's like saying food is throwing money away because you just eventually flush it
00:17:34.140 | all down the toilet at some point and it's like, well, no, you're getting nutrients and
00:17:37.860 | things that you need to live and that's what housing is.
00:17:40.380 | You need shelter to stay warm and safe and yeah, be able to sleep at night comfortably.
00:17:46.460 | So it's not throwing money away.
00:17:48.460 | That's the, that drives me crazy when I see that on, on the internet places.
00:17:53.060 | I'm like, yeah, it's no more throwing money away than buying food.
00:17:59.740 | So I'm sorry, I forget the first part of your question cause I was so, so the, the kind
00:18:07.780 | of trade-off analysis people think they should be building equity and think they minimize
00:18:14.260 | the value of rent or yeah, the cost of maintaining, yeah, and which Corey, you'll know this more
00:18:22.900 | than I will cause you're obviously more, you have more experience in real estate, but yeah,
00:18:30.660 | the cost of maintaining it and then the opportunity costs of the capital that you have locked
00:18:34.060 | up in that now, since I have a house now, I've been keeping track of the spreadsheet
00:18:41.100 | just cause I really want people to understand that.
00:18:43.680 | So hopefully in 10 years, I'll be able to write a post where I'm like, yeah, this house
00:18:47.860 | has been great.
00:18:48.860 | And yeah, it looks like I've made a lot of money cause it went from X to Y, but really
00:18:52.980 | if that money had been where it was before, which is in the markets, I would have this
00:18:57.820 | much money.
00:18:58.820 | I would have actually cost myself probably, you know, multiple six figures for this decision.
00:19:04.140 | So yeah, the opportunity cost of having that capital deployed in something that's not productive
00:19:10.420 | in the sense that it's not making money or growing or compounding it, it is giving it's
00:19:14.220 | productive in the sense that it's giving you shelter, but yeah, I think renting is an amazing
00:19:20.380 | option and yeah, like you look into the, the like average returns of real estate over the
00:19:26.620 | last a hundred years or whatever, and it's fairly above inflation and yeah, you could
00:19:31.540 | get, you could get lucky if you buy into a hot market or you could obviously increase
00:19:36.620 | your return by doing work on the house and extend, extending it or improving it.
00:19:43.220 | So you can do that.
00:19:44.220 | And then if you do enjoy that kind of work, then that's maybe a good use of your time
00:19:47.740 | and effort.
00:19:48.740 | But, but yeah, real estate in general, isn't an amazing investment, especially if you're
00:19:55.020 | living in it, that you're not getting any rent from it.
00:19:58.580 | But it's a fantastic splurge if you're like me and you're in your forties now and you
00:20:02.980 | have a new son and you just want to settle down and have nice things at home cause you're
00:20:07.020 | too tired to go anywhere else then it's fantastic.
00:20:09.980 | Excellent.
00:20:10.980 | So, and how about for the, the more qualitative stuff, whether buying or renting, how's the
00:20:16.020 | community, a lot of Bogleheads who retire or whether FI people talk about, you know,
00:20:21.220 | using the social structure from their work or meaning, do you know your neighbors?
00:20:26.980 | Do you know other parents of toddlers?
00:20:29.180 | How's that been?
00:20:30.180 | Yeah, exactly.
00:20:31.180 | So that's, that's a perfect example of why this has been such a good decision for us.
00:20:35.580 | Yeah.
00:20:36.580 | We're in this nice little village.
00:20:37.580 | There's like a leisure center right up the road with the pool and play soft play and
00:20:43.060 | all this stuff.
00:20:44.060 | And we know all our neighbors where we didn't know anyone in Edinburgh.
00:20:49.220 | Jill knows all the other moms at the mom groups who she goes to and she's constantly meeting
00:20:54.460 | up at the park with people and yeah, so that's, that's a huge part of why we're so happy with
00:21:00.780 | our decision.
00:21:01.780 | And yeah, we can walk to his future primary school and we're getting to know all his classmates
00:21:09.060 | already and they're only like one.
00:21:10.940 | So it's it's fantastic in that sense.
00:21:14.220 | And yeah, and like we were renting in this village before and we were quite happily renting
00:21:20.060 | because we're like, that'll allow us to take our time with buying and it's great for now.
00:21:24.940 | We know we want to live in this village, but we're happy just renting.
00:21:28.700 | And then the owner said she wanted to come back in like three months.
00:21:31.820 | So we were pretty much kicked to the curb.
00:21:34.420 | So rent renting, there's that risk.
00:21:36.860 | And when we were young and we were in Edinburgh, we, we didn't care.
00:21:39.300 | We're like, fine.
00:21:40.300 | We'll find another place in Edinburgh.
00:21:41.300 | Well, it doesn't matter.
00:21:42.420 | But now with a kid, obviously we want to maintain our place in the community here or there.
00:21:48.300 | I'm in the States right now, but maintain our, you know, friendships there.
00:21:53.620 | And yeah, obviously owning allows you to, to lock that in really.
00:22:01.100 | Grow some roots.
00:22:03.700 | So I was considering saving this question for the end, but I feel like I want to transition
00:22:08.260 | to an update on your spending.
00:22:11.820 | So I'll ask you this question now, you know, how you ask your podcast guests, what's the
00:22:15.940 | one piece of advice you'd give to those pursuing FI?
00:22:19.100 | I'll ask you, what's the one piece of advice you'd give to folks considering parenting?
00:22:24.500 | And similarly, the main piece of advice you'd give to homebuyers.
00:22:28.260 | Oh, okay.
00:22:29.780 | Well, yeah, considering parenting yeah, I guess just no, you'll never be ready and you'll
00:22:37.540 | never feel ready even when you're in the midst of it, I think.
00:22:41.260 | I always thought, yeah, I wasn't ready and I needed to wait until I was ready, I guess.
00:22:44.900 | But yeah, you're never fully prepared.
00:22:48.100 | So yeah, just take the plunge and you'll figure it out as you go.
00:22:52.380 | And really all they care about is time and love.
00:22:54.880 | So I don't think you need to worry about like all the fancy stuff and getting all the gear.
00:23:00.220 | Yeah.
00:23:01.220 | I, yeah, I would just say, yeah, you'll never fully be ready.
00:23:06.100 | So just take the plunge if you think that's something you want to do.
00:23:09.740 | And for homeowners, yeah, it's really, that's tough because I would say try it out first.
00:23:21.380 | Like I think renting in the place where you want to buy is a great option if it's not
00:23:25.500 | a huge hassle.
00:23:26.500 | Like in Scotland, we rented a three bed, two bed bath house that was fully furnished in
00:23:31.580 | the same village we wanted to live in.
00:23:33.420 | And then we fell in love with it and then we knew we wanted to live there.
00:23:36.940 | So I think that is a good option.
00:23:40.420 | And like with Airbnbs, like it could be a month and still not be an expensive month,
00:23:45.740 | I guess, compared to a long-term rental.
00:23:48.460 | But that's the beauty of Airbnbs is you can really try it out, which is something that
00:23:54.020 | we're doing on this side of the Atlantic for potentially maybe having a mountain house
00:24:01.140 | somewhere here in the next 10 years or something.
00:24:05.000 | But rather than put that off for 10 years, we're doing Airbnbs and trying it out and
00:24:12.580 | hopefully if we do find somewhere we really love, then we'll know that's where we want
00:24:16.700 | to go.
00:24:17.700 | And if we don't, we'll just keep doing Airbnbs and testing.
00:24:19.700 | So yeah, I think that's a really good option to make sure you want to be there for the
00:24:25.900 | long-term before you take that plunge.
00:24:28.580 | And then the numbers do matter for real estate.
00:24:30.840 | So if I was still on the journey to FI, then I would be running comparative numbers between
00:24:37.400 | renting and buying like crazy.
00:24:40.060 | But for this purchase, this was the first one that it was a splurge and it was a lifestyle
00:24:44.980 | decision, not a financial decision.
00:24:47.420 | Excellent.
00:24:48.420 | Great to hear.
00:24:49.420 | Yeah, it reminds me of a few things.
00:24:51.120 | One is last we spoke with the Bogleheads, you suggested for people considering FI that
00:24:57.580 | they also try out things before they retire.
00:25:00.780 | So it's kind of similar to how you're describing home buying before you do it.
00:25:05.240 | And then when you mentioned all kids care about is time and love, it reminded me of
00:25:10.100 | something your mom said in the Raising Money Smart Kids podcast that you did, which I recommend
00:25:15.820 | to folks if they haven't heard it yet.
00:25:18.140 | She said, you don't have to shower or show love with things, you can show it with time.
00:25:23.360 | So I thought that was really beautiful.
00:25:24.940 | That's funny.
00:25:26.540 | She's right next door and the amount of stuff she's bought my son on this trip is unbelievable.
00:25:31.140 | So I'm going to have to play that for her because she's out of control.
00:25:35.380 | That's funny.
00:25:36.380 | Yeah.
00:25:37.380 | Some things are so much easier said than not done.
00:25:41.380 | So big update.
00:25:43.120 | You've had Ramit on the podcast twice at least, and we've spoken about how he's somewhat of
00:25:50.100 | an anti-mustachian or we can think of him that way to a certain extent.
00:25:54.620 | And you mentioned you were working on spending more.
00:25:57.700 | And I'm excited for us to talk about it because it definitely resonates with a lot of bogal
00:26:01.780 | heads who can't help but save and accumulate these huge nest eggs.
00:26:08.060 | But it's also, I want to hear about it from you holistically because there's this mindset
00:26:14.420 | that people think frugal people are denying themselves of happiness or experiences, which
00:26:20.020 | may be the case, but for a lot of people, they buy whatever they want, they experience
00:26:24.900 | whatever they want, but their needs and wants are so simple, they're not denying themselves
00:26:29.580 | of anything.
00:26:30.580 | So how do you navigate that spectrum?
00:26:32.700 | Yeah, it's been a really interesting transition because I'm so naturally frugal, but I'm also
00:26:39.220 | good enough at math to know that if I don't start spending more than the portfolio will
00:26:45.180 | get pretty much out of control with hitting that exponential curve with the compounding.
00:26:54.300 | So it's been a really interesting journey, I guess, and Ramit's been a huge part of it.
00:27:01.140 | Ramit, and then a book, Die With Zero, which I don't agree with all of that's in there,
00:27:07.300 | but he makes a lot of good points about there's certain phases in your life.
00:27:13.540 | So going back to my ski mountain house example, yeah, I could just save and save and save
00:27:19.700 | for the next 10, 15 years and buy the perfect mountain house, but I'll be in my late 50s
00:27:25.780 | then and maybe I won't want to ski as much as I do now and maybe my son will be too cool
00:27:30.820 | to hang out with me and he won't want to ski, you know what I mean?
00:27:34.500 | So rather than do that, like, yeah, I can focus because I like planning for the future.
00:27:39.980 | That's fun, I like looking forward to something, but I don't want to delay fun until the future
00:27:46.780 | like I did when I was saving for FI, where I was like, okay, yeah, I'll be happy when
00:27:50.300 | I reach FI.
00:27:53.160 | So it's like a nice balance where it's like, okay, yeah, still sort of planning for this
00:27:58.500 | very future, but I'm also living that now in a smaller way.
00:28:03.420 | So tomorrow we're flying to Boston and we're going to have a ski weekend with friends up
00:28:08.220 | at Stowe and we're going to be looking around at mountain towns in Vermont because we used
00:28:14.340 | to live in Vermont and it's like, well, maybe we can maybe have a mountain house there.
00:28:20.460 | Maybe that's where we'll spend winters for the next few years or whatever.
00:28:24.100 | So it's balancing that.
00:28:27.020 | So I agree.
00:28:28.940 | I don't feel like I'm restricting myself or depriving myself of happiness, but I also
00:28:35.140 | can see Ramit's side of it where he thinks I'm not pushing myself enough to even try
00:28:40.140 | things because it is really still hard.
00:28:43.020 | To give you an example, we were planning to do a month ski trip this time and then a few
00:28:49.900 | family things happened.
00:28:50.900 | So we're not going to do the full month, so we're actually just going to do a week in
00:28:55.260 | Vermont and I booked a really splurgy house for the weekend because I have friends coming
00:29:02.220 | up and we're meeting them and it's a fraction of what I had planned to spend for this whole
00:29:07.500 | month.
00:29:08.500 | So the money doesn't matter in that sense, but man, it was hard to pull the trigger and
00:29:13.060 | it's been hard to think about what I'm spending for two nights in a place where I'm always
00:29:21.500 | looking for the best deal.
00:29:23.380 | So I can see Ramit's side of it too, where I'm naturally frugal and I could have an okay
00:29:29.700 | weekend with friends or I could have an amazing weekend with friends and financially it doesn't
00:29:33.340 | really matter because I'm not crazy and I'm not going to go and start getting a private
00:29:38.940 | jet or something and I'm not going to blow through my whole savings because it would
00:29:43.420 | be impossible for my brain to do that.
00:29:46.780 | So financially it doesn't matter, but it's sort of just letting go a little bit.
00:29:52.500 | I feel like I've made a lot of progress in the sense that I don't stress about little
00:29:58.060 | transactions as much and I do spend freely because I realize I'm a middle-class guy and
00:30:04.140 | my most extravagant middle-class life in my head isn't going to be that much money.
00:30:10.860 | So I can live the most extravagant, buy as many burritos when I'm out as I can because
00:30:16.700 | it's a $10 or $15 burrito, it doesn't matter.
00:30:19.780 | It's not like I'm going out and getting a case of caviar and country clubs or anything
00:30:25.420 | because that's a whole other world and I don't particularly want to be in that world.
00:30:29.060 | I'm happy with all my friends are middle-class, my family's middle-class and it's what I'm
00:30:35.580 | comfortable in and it's like, yes, I could maybe spend and start spending like I'm in
00:30:41.140 | the upper echelons of society, but I don't have the desire to do that.
00:30:45.980 | So it's allowed me to just live the most extravagant middle-class life, which has been super fun
00:30:51.900 | because it's like, yeah, I'm out and I'm getting a fancy coffee and then I'm getting a pastry
00:30:56.300 | and then I'll get lunch and then most of the time I'm at home so I'm not spending any money.
00:31:01.540 | So it really hasn't moved the needle too much.
00:31:04.820 | So I can see it from both sides.
00:31:06.660 | So I agree that as a naturally frugal person, I don't feel like I'm really depriving myself
00:31:13.460 | of a lot of things, but I can also see it from Ramit's side of things and be like, there's
00:31:18.100 | a lot more other really interesting experiences you could have if you just push yourself a
00:31:21.900 | little bit.
00:31:22.900 | Excellent.
00:31:23.900 | So great to hear.
00:31:25.460 | Very curious since you've been on this journey for a bit, what has moved the needle?
00:31:30.780 | You're famously passionate about your coffee and so your example of splurging on the house
00:31:37.820 | and having a bunch of friends over, can you talk about the proportionate joy or not from
00:31:43.060 | these sort of outsize expenses, but very interested in, I'm sure a lot of Bogleheads and others
00:31:47.740 | would be curious.
00:31:49.260 | What warrants the spending, even if, what have you experimented on and what's been worth,
00:31:56.380 | I don't want to say overspending because it's worth it if you're spending, but what has
00:32:00.180 | moved the needle?
00:32:02.140 | Quality, definitely, which quality is hard to find.
00:32:06.940 | That's what I was trying to ask Ramit at some point, I was like, how do you judge quality
00:32:10.860 | versus just like brand name, social status?
00:32:16.940 | But to give you an example, like my coffee grinder, which I use every morning, it's just
00:32:20.500 | so beautifully made and everything about it, just sliding the drawer and pressing the button.
00:32:26.540 | It's just the quality that brings me joy every morning just to use it and see it and interact
00:32:31.940 | with it.
00:32:32.940 | So that's something that's really moved the needle, just buying things that I know I'm
00:32:39.580 | going to really enjoy, like obviously a computer, which I'm on all the time, and I love music,
00:32:48.460 | so I bought a good sound system for our living room so I can listen to music when we're not
00:32:52.660 | watching a movie or something.
00:32:55.380 | Things like that, that I know I'm going to get a lot of use out of and enjoy out of have
00:32:58.260 | been great.
00:32:59.260 | And yeah, that's the surprising thing, I was never into stuff before, but now I'm loving
00:33:03.700 | stuff because if you have a few really nice things that you get joy out of every day,
00:33:08.380 | it's fantastic.
00:33:09.380 | And yeah, I've been pretty good, I have experimented, there's been some duds.
00:33:15.860 | I think the Apple Watch, I'm an Apple ecosystem kind of guy, so every time I get an Apple
00:33:25.460 | product, it makes all my other ones better.
00:33:27.740 | So I had no need for the watch, but I was like, it should make everything else better,
00:33:33.140 | but so far it hasn't.
00:33:34.140 | It was good for skiing and keeping track of my runs and stuff, but besides that, that's
00:33:38.580 | been a sort of a dud.
00:33:39.860 | But really, I think just being so frugal and overanalyzing every purchase all my entire
00:33:45.860 | life, I know pretty much what I want and what would be good and what wouldn't be.
00:33:52.700 | So that's why I don't fear that getting out of control either, because it's not like I'm
00:33:56.900 | having an infinite set of stuff I want to buy, I have a very small set and I enjoy researching
00:34:03.440 | to find the best one.
00:34:04.440 | So yeah, I think quality, quality has been good, but again, it's harder to differentiate
00:34:12.060 | quality from just brand name appeal, I guess sometimes, but that's where I guess reviews
00:34:18.620 | come in and stuff, but yeah.
00:34:20.460 | Okay.
00:34:21.460 | It makes perfect sense.
00:34:23.580 | Something you also mentioned you wanted to increase spending on or we're exploring is
00:34:28.020 | charitable giving.
00:34:29.620 | And so I'm wondering, definitely want to hear more about that, but now that you've had a
00:34:36.280 | kid, does that affect your lens on charitable giving?
00:34:41.680 | Do you want to give more to your heirs or family?
00:34:47.360 | That's a very difficult one.
00:34:48.360 | Yeah.
00:34:49.360 | And that's something that I have on my to-do list to go over over the next couple of weeks.
00:34:52.880 | I'm going to sort of project out all of my accounts because you sent me that book by
00:34:57.920 | Mike Piper, More Than Enough, which is fantastic and it's completely changed how I view all
00:35:02.720 | of my different accounts.
00:35:04.160 | So I want to sort of see where those are all going to go.
00:35:09.760 | If I keep adding money to them, if I don't, if I start taking out, if I leave them as
00:35:14.080 | is and things like that, and then that's going to affect everything because that's still
00:35:18.600 | such a difficult question because I don't know how I'm going to handle that with my
00:35:23.320 | son, which also goes back to why I'm doing what I'm doing now, buying a nice house in
00:35:28.840 | a nice village.
00:35:29.840 | It's like, yes, I could leave him a big chunk of money, but I don't want to do that.
00:35:35.720 | But I don't want to not leave him a bunch of money if I have it.
00:35:39.560 | So I'd rather spend the money to give him a better life as we grow up together than
00:35:46.820 | just be super frugal, have an okay life in an okay village or whatever, and then just
00:35:52.960 | leave him a big check when I die, which I don't think that's good either.
00:35:57.280 | So yeah, it's tough.
00:35:58.960 | But more than enough that you gave me so kindly a month or two back, that's really helped
00:36:06.440 | in that sense.
00:36:07.440 | So yeah, I have a bunch of notes from that book that I'm going to go over and I'm going
00:36:10.840 | to start planning that out whenever I get the chance.
00:36:13.480 | But yeah, so for charitable giving, it's still tough for me just because I do just feel like
00:36:19.880 | I'm gripping my money with like bunch of fists.
00:36:24.800 | So my goal was to give more every year.
00:36:27.200 | So I've been doing that the last few years, so I just make sure I give more this year
00:36:32.320 | than I did last year and hopefully as I keep doing that, I'll get more comfortable with
00:36:37.280 | it.
00:36:38.280 | But yeah, it's been good in the sense where it's like, if anyone, any friends have a personal
00:36:45.720 | project or something important to them, like for instance, I just gave to the National
00:36:50.920 | Forestry Foundation, the tree email you sent me and things like that, it's like, that's
00:36:58.880 | really nice because then it's just like a no brainer.
00:37:00.680 | It's like, okay, I definitely want to give more.
00:37:03.760 | So anytime a friend comes with a running a marathon or anything, it's like, okay, definitely
00:37:08.840 | no brainer.
00:37:09.840 | So that's been nice, but yeah, it's still not natural for me.
00:37:15.080 | But hopefully once I run through this exercise and sort of see where all these accounts are
00:37:20.040 | going, then that'll free me up a little bit more to know what I'm doing.
00:37:24.440 | But yeah, currently the only goal is to give more than I did last year.
00:37:28.640 | Okay.
00:37:29.640 | That sounds like a great approach.
00:37:31.880 | Very systematic.
00:37:32.880 | So you mentioned die with zero.
00:37:35.600 | One of the premises of that, and I might oversimplify it, but he talks about if you die with any
00:37:43.880 | money left over, that was time wasted earning it.
00:37:47.600 | And he says, of course you can give to charities and family during your life and often giving
00:37:53.400 | earlier than before you die is more helpful to the recipient.
00:37:59.720 | You mentioned you didn't agree with all of it.
00:38:01.280 | Were there any key takeaways that you remember or strongly disagreed with?
00:38:05.640 | Well, yeah, the key takeaways were definitely just like there's a season for everything.
00:38:10.920 | And that's one of my only regrets with saving for FI.
00:38:15.560 | I don't regret much because we did do a lot.
00:38:17.240 | We traveled a lot and we did a lot of fun stuff in our twenties and thirties and I didn't
00:38:20.960 | feel like I was too big of a scrooge when it came to any sort of spending.
00:38:25.240 | My wife may tell you differently, but yeah, one of my only regrets is like missing a few
00:38:31.520 | bachelor parties because we lived in Scotland.
00:38:33.480 | So it was like, I wasn't going to fly to the States, pay to fly to the States and then
00:38:38.440 | a month later fly back for the wedding, so I would always just pick the wedding.
00:38:42.280 | But I can't get those times back when I'm a 20-year-old idiot getting drunk with my
00:38:48.000 | idiot friends because we're older now.
00:38:51.160 | And I don't think any of us would want to do that, but I missed out on a lot of those
00:38:54.480 | kind of memories just because I was like, I'm not going to fly back to the States twice
00:38:58.080 | in a month.
00:38:59.080 | So that's really my only like FI regret.
00:39:01.600 | So in the book, he talks a lot about that.
00:39:04.120 | He's like, yeah, you could save up a bunch of money like I did and then go on a vacation
00:39:09.960 | every week like we could now.
00:39:12.160 | But you know, I'm 42 and we have a son and I don't want to go on vacation every week.
00:39:20.760 | It would have been better maybe to spend that money to go on a vacation with all my best
00:39:24.640 | friends when we were 21 or something, you know what I mean?
00:39:26.680 | So it's sort of thinking about things, which has been really helpful because now that prompted
00:39:31.280 | us to do these sorts of trips and do the Airbnbs in the mountains rather than just don't ski
00:39:36.000 | for our entire forties and then hope that we have the perfect mountain house to then
00:39:41.000 | ski all the time.
00:39:42.000 | And it's like, well, maybe I'll throw my back out when I'm 50 and then I won't want to ski
00:39:46.600 | as much and things like that.
00:39:47.840 | So that's been really important.
00:39:50.960 | The Dying With Sierra thing, I think that's more just like a good provocative title.
00:39:56.040 | So I'm in no hurry to try to calculate how much I should spend now so that I can get
00:40:04.320 | down to zero by the time I reach 90 or whatever.
00:40:08.240 | So yeah, that wasn't, I didn't take that away from the book, but yeah, it was really good
00:40:14.480 | for just refocusing my mind and being like, okay, yeah, you could buy 10 of these things
00:40:21.880 | if you save for the next 10 years, but maybe you're going to enjoy that one thing now and
00:40:25.960 | that's more, that's a better decision overall.
00:40:30.200 | And he also talks about, I forget what he calls it, but the memory dividend or something.
00:40:35.200 | It's like, yeah, I could, like I said, I could save up for the next 10 years and have this
00:40:40.880 | epic winter at the best mountain resort.
00:40:44.680 | But if I do these 10 little trips, then these little memory dividends of all those 10 trips
00:40:50.520 | are just like things that I can just think back on and love as much as previous memories.
00:40:56.200 | And that's value.
00:40:57.200 | There's value in that.
00:40:58.200 | So those are some of the big takeaways, but it was really good for someone like me, naturally
00:41:03.920 | frugal, but is that a point where you don't really have to be anymore?
00:41:09.080 | Cool.
00:41:10.080 | Yeah.
00:41:11.080 | It's always fun when we're permeable to these different ideas.
00:41:14.680 | I think there's so much that just reinforces who we are already.
00:41:17.920 | It's like what you said about Ramit versus Mr. Money Mustache, there's this echo chamber
00:41:22.440 | aspect to Mr. Money Mustache, whereas Ramit has all these challenging views that challenge
00:41:28.480 | kind of our default settings.
00:41:30.440 | So zooming out a bit, I forget which podcast it was, but you mentioned you attended a self-improvement
00:41:36.760 | conference or something like that.
00:41:38.720 | I'd love to hear more about that and if you remember any conceptual takeaways from it.
00:41:44.200 | And then a second part of this question is so much of the self-help or self-development
00:41:49.800 | stuff gets this candy-like euphoric feeling for us.
00:41:55.880 | It's just like we're basking in this candy-like information that feels really good to consume.
00:42:00.960 | Was there something that affected you to act on things you may have taken away from it?
00:42:07.440 | Yeah.
00:42:08.440 | I'm wondering if that was maybe somebody I talked to because I'm trying to think if I
00:42:12.880 | ever went to any sort of self-help things.
00:42:14.800 | I know Alan Donegan, I interviewed, he was really big into Tony Robbins and stuff.
00:42:20.960 | Me personally, I like reading books and I get that same sort of candy-like experience
00:42:29.160 | where you're like, "Wow, yeah, I can do this and change everything."
00:42:33.360 | The in-person things I've never really been into.
00:42:36.800 | I don't know, it's just not my thing.
00:42:44.260 | I just wonder how much people take away and actually do after feeling good and like, "Yeah,
00:42:49.640 | I can take on the world and walk over the hot coals," and all that sort of stuff.
00:42:53.360 | It's like, "Yeah, but then you're just going to go back to your normal life."
00:42:57.160 | I get more out of just reading books and taking a few things away.
00:43:00.680 | Like we mentioned James Clear, Atomic Habits was really, really impactful for me pursuing
00:43:06.720 | some of my personal goals.
00:43:11.280 | That may have been Alan Donegan who I interviewed too, who had done that.
00:43:17.080 | It's not really my thing, I think.
00:43:20.060 | I think I get enough out of books to then hopefully act on some of the stuff I read
00:43:27.400 | other times, but yeah, it's hard to get past my laziness sometimes.
00:43:31.160 | Got it.
00:43:32.160 | I remember you got a lot out of reading Ultra Learning last time you recommended that.
00:43:38.160 | Yeah, that was good.
00:43:39.160 | Yeah, that was just because I needed some sort of structure to achieve or to try to
00:43:44.080 | work on a very difficult goal that I had a mental block that I just thought I could never
00:43:48.480 | do because I wanted to do it so badly.
00:43:50.880 | I just thought I could never do it, but yeah, I read Ultra Learning and it allowed me to
00:43:56.520 | take something creative and something that you feel like you have to pluck it out of
00:44:01.920 | thin air.
00:44:02.920 | It gave me structure and made my math brain happy, so it allowed me to apply my math brain
00:44:10.480 | to an arts and party side of my brain that I don't feel is just strong.
00:44:16.320 | That was very helpful, but I would say Atomic Habits was more impactful and still is, to
00:44:22.480 | be honest, just getting more things done that I want to do and overriding that natural laziness.
00:44:29.040 | Yeah.
00:44:30.040 | Amazing book.
00:44:31.040 | So practical.
00:44:32.040 | So full of actionable insights.
00:44:33.520 | I saw someone reading it on the train last night and I was just happy that it wasn't
00:44:38.600 | a flash in the pan kind of popular book for a short period of time.
00:44:43.000 | So Ultra Learning, you also mentioned helped you kind of focus on your music and fulfilling
00:44:49.640 | that lifelong dream of putting out your album.
00:44:52.480 | So any updates on the music front?
00:44:55.080 | Are you considering another album?
00:44:56.760 | I know you mentioned you played live.
00:44:58.600 | That must have been tremendous.
00:44:59.840 | Can you tell us more about that?
00:45:01.320 | Yeah, that was literally a childhood dream come true.
00:45:05.800 | So the whole point of wanting to write an album was so I could play my own songs live.
00:45:10.440 | And yeah, I did that, which was fantastic.
00:45:13.520 | So hopefully going to do a lot more of that over the next year and yeah, I want to write
00:45:17.840 | one more album.
00:45:19.040 | So I just the joy of having a home is that I was able to build the studio of my dreams
00:45:24.400 | as well.
00:45:25.400 | So I haven't got into it yet because we just finished it and then came to the States.
00:45:29.560 | So yeah, that's the that is the goal for by the end of 2025.
00:45:36.920 | And then I think that'll finally be that itch scratched and in the meantime, I want to play
00:45:40.920 | as much live as I can and get get my brother to play with me because he's a he's a really
00:45:47.280 | he's a professional percussionist to get him on drums and that is the that's the last tick
00:45:52.880 | tick on that childhood dream of mine is to play play my own songs with my brother on
00:45:58.200 | drums.
00:45:59.200 | So I need to do that at some point but yeah, no, that's been a dream come true.
00:46:04.560 | And yeah, it's been still my proudest accomplishment even even though like, yeah, nobody else cares,
00:46:10.280 | but I just know how hard it was to do it and all the self-doubt I had to break through
00:46:15.720 | to actually accomplish it.
00:46:17.160 | So I want to prove to myself I can do it again just by doing one more one more album by the
00:46:21.680 | end of 2025.
00:46:23.040 | But yeah, so that's that is the that is the main focus for this year besides obviously
00:46:29.360 | taking care of my son.
00:46:30.660 | So yeah, it's a lot to juggle.
00:46:32.480 | Well, we'll stay tuned.
00:46:33.480 | We look forward to that.
00:46:34.480 | That duet.
00:46:35.480 | I don't know if you'd call it a duet.
00:46:37.600 | So I'll ask a question out of left field and then we don't want to keep you too long.
00:46:43.200 | You have a flight tomorrow.
00:46:45.000 | You've already been traveling different time zones.
00:46:48.100 | So the out of left field question for me, my experience of the past everyone says like
00:46:54.000 | time goes so quickly, but the pace of the passage of time continually fascinates me
00:46:59.980 | like no matter how you would expect were desensitized to it, right?
00:47:04.540 | Like January just went by in a in a in a blink.
00:47:08.260 | Is it something you think about like, I don't know, aging or or is it no big deal?
00:47:13.300 | Like how do you how do you make sense out of the accelerated passage, the accelerated
00:47:18.540 | pace of the passage of time?
00:47:20.160 | Yeah.
00:47:21.160 | Yeah, just scary.
00:47:22.160 | It's just Yeah, just turned 42 a couple days ago, and I still feel 20.
00:47:28.420 | So I don't know where this couple of decades went.
00:47:32.300 | But I was talking to my uncle, who's almost 60 now and he's like, Yeah, I still feel 22.
00:47:37.260 | It's just the natural thing.
00:47:38.660 | So I noticed the time slows down when we do more interesting things.
00:47:45.120 | So that pushes me to still do interesting things.
00:47:47.460 | So because now that I have a really comfortable home that I'm making amazing with my home
00:47:51.500 | studio and my coffee grinder and all these, you know, things that I'm kidding it out with.
00:47:56.900 | There is a big draw to just stay home.
00:47:59.180 | But I do find that as you're in that home routine, time fast passes a lot quicker.
00:48:05.020 | So that does push me to do trips like this that I'm on and little side trips here and
00:48:10.300 | there to, you know, it's easy to pop over to mainland Europe and make a lot of really
00:48:14.300 | good memories and just a long weekend and things like that.
00:48:17.180 | So it does push me to do that because I feel like that slows time down a little bit for
00:48:21.620 | me.
00:48:23.000 | But I'm also quite content, you know, watching my son grow up and be like, wow, he's so big
00:48:27.660 | already and yeah, we're having a lot of fun but it is going quick and he's just getting
00:48:33.580 | so big and I'm sort of okay with it.
00:48:36.100 | Like I feel like, yeah, I'm getting older now.
00:48:38.540 | So I think it comes with the territory, just the years start flipping by, which isn't great.
00:48:46.020 | But yeah, I don't know if there's much you can do about it.
00:48:48.460 | But yeah, the only thing that I've found that counteracted is to change it up and get out
00:48:53.460 | of the routine and make a few really interesting memories.
00:48:57.980 | Excellent.
00:48:58.980 | Sound advice.
00:48:59.980 | Well, I can't thank you enough for coming back.
00:49:04.140 | Always love speaking with you.
00:49:05.580 | I'll just check in with Miriam really quickly if there are questions in the chat or via
00:49:11.620 | the RSVP function that we want to pose to Brandon.
00:49:18.260 | Okay.
00:49:20.220 | First question is, what is the name of your coffee grinder?
00:49:24.180 | Oh, Wilfa Uniform.
00:49:26.620 | So it's, I live in the UK, I believe you can get in the States, but Wilfa, W-I-L-F-A, and
00:49:33.620 | then it's Uniform.
00:49:35.840 | And I got the silver one, I think the black one comes with a scale on top, which I don't
00:49:39.620 | think is very useful.
00:49:40.620 | So it's just a stainless steel, just looks cool.
00:49:43.820 | Well, what is so special about this coffee grinder?
00:49:46.740 | It's great.
00:49:47.820 | It feels good.
00:49:49.860 | Everything just feels well-made and pressing the button's fun and pulling out the tray
00:49:55.180 | just feels like nice and nicely engineered.
00:49:58.780 | I don't know.
00:49:59.780 | It's great.
00:50:00.780 | It just feels good to use and the coffee grinds is delicious and what a way to start a morning.
00:50:06.380 | Exactly.
00:50:07.380 | Yeah.
00:50:08.380 | And I do pour over coffee.
00:50:09.380 | So it's not good for espresso.
00:50:10.380 | I don't think it's fine enough for espresso, but I do pour over V60, like a clever dripper,
00:50:15.420 | whatever, mostly just pour over stuff.
00:50:17.820 | And it's perfect for that.
00:50:18.820 | You can really dial it in.
00:50:19.820 | It's got consistent grind size and the burr grinder.
00:50:23.060 | So it's a really good quality grind and yeah, the coffee is delicious and a great part of
00:50:27.800 | my day.
00:50:28.800 | I love it.
00:50:29.800 | Does it double as a kid's toy?
00:50:30.800 | It will.
00:50:31.800 | It will.
00:50:32.800 | At some point it will.
00:50:33.800 | Wait till he puts his Legos in it and grinds them up.
00:50:42.340 | I have a question.
00:50:43.340 | You were mentioning about giving away your wealth before you die.
00:50:50.140 | And that is often talked about in the forum as one way to give to your children over time,
00:50:56.940 | especially when they're younger, you know, in their twenties and thirties when they could
00:51:01.100 | really use the money, you know, to buy a house or to get themselves together rather than
00:51:05.460 | waiting until you pass away in your 60s, 70s, 80s.
00:51:10.820 | The man who started the Vogelheads and the Vanguard Diehards is a man named Taylor Larimore.
00:51:18.620 | He is turned a hundred last week.
00:51:21.820 | He's a hundred years old.
00:51:23.980 | The guy doesn't even use a cane.
00:51:25.540 | He doesn't even walk with a cane, let alone a walker and a wheelchair.
00:51:31.420 | He also has done that.
00:51:33.260 | He has said many times that he can see with his children that what do I need?
00:51:41.140 | What does he need the money for in the future?
00:51:44.380 | He's been giving it away to his children over time rather than, you know, wait until the,
00:51:50.820 | you know, the end.
00:51:52.280 | On the other hand, for example, my husband and myself, we do not have long-term care
00:51:59.180 | insurance, meaning we do not have long-term care insurance that will help us if we have
00:52:06.060 | dementia or when we get old and we need lots of nursing aid help, Medicare does not pay
00:52:14.460 | for that.
00:52:15.820 | Medicaid may pay for some, a little bit.
00:52:20.340 | Who pays for it?
00:52:22.060 | We do.
00:52:23.220 | So that is why we are saving our money more towards the end, because when we are 80 years
00:52:29.860 | old, 90 years old, the medical expenses can get very, very, it can be, you know, out the
00:52:38.420 | roof.
00:52:39.420 | So that is one reason to keep, I would say to keep, you know, to keep things and being
00:52:45.780 | frugal like you are is good, has its good points, and you want to use your money now
00:52:50.540 | for your memories and for those special occasions that you will never regret using the money
00:52:55.860 | for.
00:52:56.860 | You know, those very special occasions.
00:52:58.940 | But on the other hand, you do have to think about the future and what will you do when
00:53:02.820 | you are older?
00:53:03.820 | You are not going to want the burden of your medical care on your son.
00:53:10.300 | So you have to stop.
00:53:11.300 | >> Yeah, no, that is a great point.
00:53:13.180 | Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:53:15.940 | Like well, currently, we are both British citizens, so we do have a bit of a bigger
00:53:21.980 | safety net than I would have had I not become a British citizen, I think.
00:53:26.420 | So there is a little bit to that.
00:53:28.420 | But no, I completely agree.
00:53:29.420 | And yeah, when I said more, when I said like spending and investing and giving it away
00:53:35.140 | till now, it is more like, yeah, like having a nice house that then could be sold if something,
00:53:41.460 | you know what I mean?
00:53:42.460 | Like buying a nice house, and yeah, I still have not figured out how to go about it.
00:53:48.020 | But I think you are absolutely right.
00:53:49.260 | There is no way I would be able to sleep if I was giving it all away, even with the safety
00:53:57.060 | net of having the NHS in the UK and some more free care options.
00:54:03.340 | But yeah, I think that is a great point.
00:54:08.140 | And also the memories, you know, many times my husband and I would not do things because
00:54:16.060 | of the expense.
00:54:18.040 | We would not go to certain family vacations with the rest of the family because it was
00:54:23.340 | too expensive.
00:54:25.260 | We did not want to take the time off from work or whatever.
00:54:28.380 | Well, looking back on it, we should have gone.
00:54:33.860 | We missed a lot.
00:54:36.020 | And then family members pass away.
00:54:38.620 | You are not with them.
00:54:40.700 | And looking back also with my kids, I have a lot of kids, the family vacations we took
00:54:47.380 | were just the high points of their life and my life.
00:54:51.380 | And the memories, the pictures, took lots of pictures and videos of the Grand Canyon,
00:54:57.180 | Yellowstone, hiking in Yellowstone National Park, you know, going out on, just doing little
00:55:04.680 | things that really do not cost a lot of money, even with a lot of people camping.
00:55:09.020 | They love it.
00:55:10.020 | They love the camping.
00:55:11.020 | Yeah.
00:55:12.020 | Those, you know, don't give up that.
00:55:14.680 | I would just say, you know, suggest not to give up those opportunities, even if it may
00:55:19.140 | cost you in particular, you know, airfare back and forth to the U.S. or to Europe.
00:55:25.260 | It's funny you say that, because I just saw my uncle and he had mentioned he was thinking
00:55:31.420 | about doing a big family reunion at the beach in June.
00:55:34.900 | And we had just got off this long nine and a half hour flight.
00:55:37.180 | And the thought of doing that all again with the even older, more rambunctious little guy
00:55:42.620 | in just a few months, I was like, oh, man, I can't even think about it.
00:55:46.660 | And then, yeah, obviously the cost as well.
00:55:48.860 | But then luckily I was like, yeah, let's just do it because, yeah, you're exactly right.
00:55:53.580 | It's like we're not, we don't know how long we have with, you know, that extended family
00:55:58.860 | and all that sort of thing.
00:56:00.100 | So I didn't say yes, but yeah, at first I was a bit overwhelmed with just the thought
00:56:04.260 | of it.
00:56:05.260 | But yeah, no, that's great advice.
00:56:08.260 | Jeff Bezos talks about regret minimization.
00:56:11.260 | That sounds like.
00:56:12.260 | What is that?
00:56:13.260 | What is regret minimization?
00:56:15.500 | So his example is he worked at a hedge fund, he was doing really well, but he had this
00:56:19.500 | idea because he saw the internet growth rates and he said he could start a bookstore on
00:56:25.060 | the internet.
00:56:26.820 | And he spoke with his boss at the hedge fund who said, why do you want to leave such a
00:56:32.380 | great job?
00:56:33.380 | And he said, if I look back when I'm 80 and I didn't take this chance, I will regret it.
00:56:40.140 | And if it fails now, he can always go back to work.
00:56:42.820 | So he categorized that as regret minimization and he took the plunge and started Amazon
00:56:48.740 | in his garage.
00:56:50.420 | Worked out pretty good.
00:56:55.540 | Are you going to open it up for questions?
00:56:59.860 | Yeah, let's do that.
00:57:01.780 | Did you say we had a few questions from the RSVP and then, Brandon, if you need to jump,
00:57:06.740 | I know we just hit the hour mark and I can get a little respectful of your rest.
00:57:12.380 | OK.
00:57:13.380 | So the questions from the RSVP actually involve finance in the FIRE movement.
00:57:21.180 | And one of them was, what, if any place, do alternative investments play in your portfolio?
00:57:32.540 | Now, he doesn't say when, whether it's before you actually retired or after you retired,
00:57:39.500 | but in particular, annuities, I-bonds, real estate type mutual funds, gold and silver.
00:57:48.980 | Or are you, as I recall, you were basically the three funder once you retired.
00:57:54.140 | I don't know what you were.
00:57:55.140 | I don't remember what you were before you retired.
00:57:57.420 | Yeah.
00:57:58.420 | Yeah.
00:57:59.420 | No.
00:58:00.420 | Yeah.
00:58:01.420 | Just total stock market, total international stock market, a little bit of bonds, and that's
00:58:06.120 | it.
00:58:07.120 | So for me, they don't play any role.
00:58:09.580 | I, especially at this stage, like I just buy things for life.
00:58:14.660 | I don't ever intend to sell, especially now that I realized how amazing margin loans are
00:58:21.900 | for things like I have an IBKR account, Interactive Brokers, and was able to just buy my house
00:58:30.340 | against my portfolio, which was amazing.
00:58:32.820 | So yeah, I don't really even consider selling anything in the near term anyway.
00:58:41.760 | So when I buy something, I just want it to be happy with it for life.
00:58:46.400 | So I'm happy with those.
00:58:49.200 | Recently, it was right when they thought inflation was going to be higher for longer.
00:58:56.360 | And I had some money to invest in, I sold a 401k and my Roth, I believe, I forget.
00:59:06.300 | Anyway, I bought TLT, long-term treasuries, because I was like, the risk reward was pretty
00:59:16.420 | skewed at that stage.
00:59:18.140 | So yeah, if like interest rates went up 25 basis points, you would lose, I don't know,
00:59:24.580 | 3% or 4%, but if they went down 25 basis points, you'd make, I don't know, 7% or 8% or something,
00:59:29.980 | something like that.
00:59:30.980 | It was just an asymmetric bet.
00:59:32.500 | So I was like, well, I need some more bonds, and then I can sell those next recession or
00:59:36.740 | whatever.
00:59:37.740 | So I did buy some TLT, and it's done great since then, it was lucky timing, and it wasn't
00:59:46.900 | higher for longer, maybe.
00:59:48.980 | So yeah, that's it.
00:59:50.860 | So really, yeah, it's Vanguard, total stock market, total international stock market,
00:59:56.060 | and then total bond market, and then with a little bit of TLT thrown in, a little bit
01:00:00.660 | of Apple that I bought, I don't even remember when, 2014 or something.
01:00:06.660 | It was back when they were like, Apple stock price, they have more cash on hand than the
01:00:13.300 | stock price thing the company's worth.
01:00:15.780 | So I just had a little bit of money sitting around, so I put some into Apple at that stage,
01:00:21.060 | and then I have a little bit of Google in my Roth from, again, a while ago that I just
01:00:29.660 | thought I'd buy some Google because I was a tech guy.
01:00:32.940 | So yeah, so that, but those are annoying because even if they're winners, then you can't sell,
01:00:38.140 | especially if they're in a taxable account, because you don't want to pay a bunch of tax
01:00:42.100 | on them.
01:00:43.100 | So I got all these little, those just a few individual stocks in my portfolio, but yeah,
01:00:49.180 | simple.
01:00:50.180 | So I don't have any of that stuff that you listed out as the alternative.
01:00:56.220 | And again, I would just have no conviction to hold it for 30 years if I didn't, yeah,
01:01:02.420 | I just don't feel like I would be into it, so I just don't buy it.
01:01:05.940 | All right.
01:01:06.940 | Brandon, another question, since you live out of the United States, are you still investing
01:01:11.780 | in Vanguard?
01:01:12.780 | How is it when you are not living in the U.S. and investing with Vanguard, I know we've
01:01:20.460 | had Bogleheads who have posted on the forum that it is difficult with the U.S. banking
01:01:28.700 | system to have investments like that.
01:01:31.780 | You can have them, but you cannot trade in them or something.
01:01:35.100 | Yeah, no, it's confusing, and I'm not probably the best person to talk to about it because
01:01:40.220 | my business is technically based in Florida, so my solo 401k can then use it and things
01:01:45.900 | like that.
01:01:46.900 | And this is my parents' house in Florida, and so I use that as my mailing address for
01:01:56.220 | everything and where my business is based and where, so yeah, I'm probably not the best
01:02:03.660 | person to ask just because, one, I don't know if I'm doing it right.
01:02:08.500 | And two, yeah, not everyone would have the same sort of setup.
01:02:13.860 | So for me, yeah, everything's still acting as normal, and my business is still putting
01:02:18.180 | money into the solo 401k, and it's still getting invested whenever I invest it.
01:02:24.760 | So yeah, I'm not sure if that would apply to everyone or not.
01:02:30.220 | Right.
01:02:31.220 | I understand.
01:02:32.220 | Okay.
01:02:33.220 | Gauri?
01:02:34.220 | That's it for me.
01:02:35.460 | Brandon, again, thank you so much.
01:02:37.740 | So before we go, we can turn it to the live audience if folks want to raise their hand.
01:02:45.580 | Okay, it's removed.
01:02:57.140 | So I'm not seeing any hands.
01:03:00.300 | Brandon, anything you want to highlight from the blog or podcast that you want to turn
01:03:06.100 | people's attention to or?
01:03:08.540 | No, no, I haven't been doing much recently.
01:03:15.500 | I hope to pick it up again once I get back to Scotland just to start going through some
01:03:20.380 | stuff.
01:03:21.380 | And yeah, I have lots of ideas to talk about regarding the spending stuff because yeah,
01:03:28.620 | I feel like I have made such significant progress.
01:03:30.980 | So yeah, if you're listening to this, you can go to medfinantist.com/advice and you
01:03:39.060 | can enter your email address there and you'll get all the advice from my podcast guests
01:03:43.300 | where I asked them what's one piece of advice you'd give to somebody on the path to financial
01:03:46.580 | independence.
01:03:47.580 | So I put that onto a PDF.
01:03:49.460 | But anyway, the point is you get on the email list, which there's like 100,000 people on
01:03:54.300 | there.
01:03:55.300 | I don't know anybody and I've barely even messaged people to be honest, because I don't
01:04:01.020 | do that much content.
01:04:02.020 | But if you're on that list, then you'll get those posts when I eventually do them, which
01:04:06.420 | I'm hoping once I get back to Scotland, I can actually sit down and start writing out
01:04:10.620 | some of the stuff.
01:04:11.620 | Because like I said, I do feel like I've made a lot of good progress and all the changes
01:04:16.220 | I've made with my spending have been positive.
01:04:20.140 | So I think it is something worth looking into for naturally frugal people like me.
01:04:24.980 | So yeah, you could just go to medfinantist.com/advice and just get on the email list there.
01:04:30.220 | Sounds good.
01:04:31.220 | Lady Geek has her hand up.
01:04:32.860 | Yeah.
01:04:33.860 | Just want to...
01:04:34.860 | I know Brandon, you're running out of gas there, but there were two questions from the
01:04:39.060 | chat was for you.
01:04:41.100 | There were also a couple other questions, but myself and several members were answering
01:04:45.380 | the chat on our own.
01:04:46.620 | Oh, nice.
01:04:47.620 | So sorry.
01:04:48.620 | At a high level, what withdrawal rate have you been able to maintain and do you have
01:04:54.900 | income coming in?
01:04:56.220 | Yeah.
01:04:57.220 | So yeah.
01:04:58.220 | So income coming in.
01:04:59.220 | So withdrawal rate zero since I left.
01:05:01.980 | So that's the ironic part.
01:05:03.940 | I've worked so hard to save all this up.
01:05:06.380 | And then the application, like some of the software that I wrote prior to leaving my
01:05:11.900 | job then took off.
01:05:14.820 | And so I haven't had to withdraw, which is why I'm sort of focusing more on the spending
01:05:19.300 | side now, because I realized that all of my projections and all the math that I did prior
01:05:23.860 | to FI is sort of out the window if I'm not withdrawing from the portfolio.
01:05:29.680 | So it made me rethink of what I'm going to be doing with all those things.
01:05:34.580 | So income could go to zero tomorrow, which I'm obviously prepared for, because I haven't
01:05:38.900 | exceeded...
01:05:40.180 | Our spending hasn't ever exceeded what the portfolio could generate at a safe withdrawal
01:05:44.740 | rate.
01:05:47.100 | But it just hasn't.
01:05:48.100 | I haven't had to tap into it yet.
01:05:49.420 | So I usually start anything I'm talking about with that caveat, because it does change how
01:05:56.420 | I view spending and withdrawal and investments.
01:06:00.860 | And I'm willing to take a little bit more, I guess, more risk in my investments because
01:06:06.460 | I do have that income as a backup.
01:06:08.660 | Okay, one easy question, will you continue with your podcast?
01:06:15.300 | Yes, but probably not in the same format.
01:06:18.540 | I took, I don't even know if anyone noticed last year, because I only usually release
01:06:23.660 | maybe, I don't know, a handful of episodes a year anyway.
01:06:27.340 | And last year, I didn't do any new interviews.
01:06:29.180 | I had a couple of podcast takeovers and I had a couple other things that I did a few
01:06:33.940 | best of episodes and things, but I decided to take a whole year off of interviews.
01:06:39.780 | And that's mainly because I feel like I've talked to everyone I wanted to talk to, and
01:06:43.020 | I've learned everything I wanted to learn.
01:06:45.340 | And that's why Remit was my last interview, because I feel like that was a whole thing,
01:06:49.100 | that was a whole aspect that I haven't really even thought about, but I really needed to
01:06:52.660 | address was that like spending and learning how to spend.
01:06:55.380 | So I was really excited to talk to him, but then I don't want to just interview the same
01:07:01.500 | people and talk about the same things.
01:07:03.220 | I feel like I've covered a lot of the things that I wanted to cover.
01:07:06.940 | The one I may change the format of it, so it will continue in some aspect, but I don't
01:07:12.220 | think it'll be me interviewing people about how they achieve financial independence.
01:07:16.460 | I think maybe it'll be talking more with people after they've achieved five to find out the
01:07:22.100 | interesting things they're doing with their freedom and their money, is that to me right
01:07:26.060 | now is more interesting.
01:07:27.420 | I think the mechanics of five have been covered by me and many others at Ozium at this stage,
01:07:34.140 | so it just doesn't interest me to get another person on to talk about the same things I've
01:07:41.740 | covered.
01:07:42.740 | But the stuff afterwards where you're like actually utilizing it to live in a cool, interesting
01:07:46.580 | life or do interesting things, that does appeal to me, so I think I'm going to try to figure
01:07:51.380 | out a way to do that.
01:07:52.380 | Okay, one more question and a comment, and I think you're out of gas.
01:07:57.300 | Can you talk more about your income from software and is it passive?
01:08:03.020 | Your software income?
01:08:04.020 | Yeah, it is.
01:08:05.020 | Yes.
01:08:06.020 | So the main source of the software income is an application I wrote actually probably
01:08:14.340 | maybe two years before even the Mad Fientes started, so maybe 2010.
01:08:20.380 | It's a credit card search tool for people who are really interested in travel rewards.
01:08:29.380 | So back in the day, I was like it's very confusing in the States where Chase points transfer
01:08:36.740 | to Delta at this ratio, but then Amex points transfer to Delta at this other ratio.
01:08:43.500 | But then you have also Delta cards, and I was like I just want to get the card that's
01:08:47.260 | going to give me the most Delta points, and I don't care if it's a Chase Ultimate Rewards
01:08:50.300 | card, I don't care if it's an Amex Membership Rewards card.
01:08:54.300 | So anyway, so I built this search tool that stores all of those transfer ratios and stores
01:09:00.580 | all the cards so that you can go in and be like okay, I want a no annual fee card, I
01:09:04.980 | want to earn Delta miles, and I want no foreign transaction fees, and you can click all these
01:09:09.980 | buttons and then it will give you the best cards in reverse order of like the biggest
01:09:13.700 | sign-up bonuses.
01:09:14.700 | So I wrote that prior to even starting The Mad Bientist, but now it is a nearly passive
01:09:23.100 | application.
01:09:24.780 | I work with an intermediary company, so I don't work directly with the banks, I work
01:09:29.500 | with a company that works with the banks, so I don't even have to maintain the relationships
01:09:33.380 | with the banks, and they have a database with all the cards, and I have an API.
01:09:38.940 | I just access their API, my application just accesses their API, so it sucks in all the
01:09:43.740 | updated card data automatically, and every so often I'll need to change something manually
01:09:49.300 | or I'll need to add a new card or something like that, but it's less than, yeah, it's
01:09:55.420 | less than 40 hours in a year, not even, like I can, yeah, I would say here and there, like
01:10:02.460 | maybe responding to an email.
01:10:03.940 | So it is relatively passive, but I hate the word, I hate the term passive income because
01:10:09.300 | it's not, it's front-loaded work, front-loaded work with no guarantee of any sort of payoff,
01:10:14.580 | and that's what it was, because for years it just sat there languishing because it was
01:10:18.940 | like a chicken and egg problem, you can't get a relationship with the credit card companies
01:10:22.820 | until you're generating lots of conversions, but you can't generate a lot of conversions
01:10:28.020 | without getting paid for them because how are you going to, you're just going to spend
01:10:32.020 | a bunch of money to generate conversions that don't pay you, so it was just like a chicken
01:10:37.220 | and egg problem, so it sat there for probably, I don't know, six to eight years doing nothing,
01:10:43.380 | and then it just started taking off, yeah, probably six, seven years ago.
01:10:50.220 | Okay, thanks.
01:10:51.220 | Okay, just one comment that what you mentioned earlier on, it resonated with me because I
01:10:56.580 | do that as well, that is spend money on quality products, not, I gave an example of food,
01:11:03.340 | like things with high fructose corn syrup and whatever else they put in that stuff,
01:11:07.980 | I ignore because I can afford to buy the real stuff, and it makes a huge difference in my
01:11:12.300 | lifestyle, eating good food, but also by quality, like you do computers, I build computers,
01:11:18.300 | and I buy the stuff that I want, I say it's not a want, it's not a need, it's a want,
01:11:24.380 | and I want good stuff, also buy like good tools, don't ever buy cheap tools, really,
01:11:30.980 | like client tools, you know, that kind of stuff, not the knockoffs that you see overseas,
01:11:36.500 | so I just say that resonated with me, because people say when you have enough, they talk
01:11:39.860 | about going on cruises and trips, those are like thousands of dollars, guys, wake up,
01:11:46.380 | if you spend another five or 10 bucks in the supermarket, your quality of life goes up
01:11:51.300 | just as well, if even more, so spend another five or 10 bucks instead of thousands, and
01:11:56.620 | it'll make a huge difference, so I couldn't agree more, and that brings up a great point,
01:12:01.100 | so something Ramit said to me during our conversation, which I never got into, only probably over
01:12:06.180 | the last three weeks, he said, why spend less when you could spend more, and I was like,
01:12:11.080 | that makes no sense, that doesn't compute with my frugal, natural, frugal brain, it
01:12:15.500 | makes no sense, but it was only recently with food that it made sense, and I always just
01:12:22.660 | bought the cheapest rice, 'cause I was like, it's rice, who cares, what's the difference,
01:12:27.460 | it doesn't make any difference, it's just rice, but then I was like, all right, why
01:12:33.060 | spend less when I could spend more, I'm gonna buy the fanciest rice, and man, it's so good,
01:12:37.380 | it's so much better, and then I found a big bulk bag of 10 kilogram bulk bag on Amazon,
01:12:44.620 | so it's actually not even that much more expensive when you buy it like that, but it's the first
01:12:49.020 | time I understood why spend less when you can spend more, so now with food, it's always,
01:12:53.860 | I'm trying the most expensive thing, and then I'll work my way down to see where the benefit
01:13:00.580 | actually cuts off, but that was the first time that made sense, and that's when I interviewed
01:13:05.940 | him October of 2022, maybe, so that's the first time it's actually sunk in, it made
01:13:15.220 | sense that phrase, 'cause up until then, it didn't compute.
01:13:19.420 | - Came to fruition, who would have imagined that rice would be a gateway drug?
01:13:24.180 | - Yeah.
01:13:25.180 | - Yeah.
01:13:26.180 | - So good, though.
01:13:27.180 | - It's not just ingredients, also, what you do is I go to the top level name brand, but
01:13:31.580 | look at the quality, the grains, the size, the color, and even look at the olive oil,
01:13:40.100 | I'm a maniac with olive oil, yeah, I could talk all day about olive oil.
01:13:46.420 | - Yeah, okay, so we're resonating here, I'm an engineer, yeah, I'm resonating here, but
01:13:51.620 | yeah, that's--
01:13:52.620 | - She's an engineer, she counts the grains of rice and she puts them in different piles.
01:13:57.100 | - But yeah, I don't look at the price, I look at uniprice, and then I look at how much served,
01:14:02.740 | all right, so I'm going off, I'm done.
01:14:05.260 | - Rice per grain of rice, actually, I have another expression that is buying cheap costs
01:14:15.540 | more or going cheap costs more in the long run.
01:14:23.380 | - Especially for tools and things like that, yeah, absolutely.
01:14:25.380 | - Yeah, well, for me, for example, I'm a homeowner in Florida, and we have lots of beautiful
01:14:30.920 | tropical trees, well, they grow all year round and they need pruning.
01:14:37.020 | So pruning my homestead here, such as it is, is about $4,000, $4,500 every time I prune
01:14:47.540 | the trees, and that is a lot of money for trees, but you have to do it, you cannot put
01:14:55.060 | it aside, because if you do it, then the next time you prune, it's gonna be 5,000 or 6,000,
01:15:00.180 | and also the county and the local government will be after you to prune those trees, and
01:15:05.060 | now the insurance companies drive around and say, well, we're gonna cut your insurance
01:15:08.380 | off if you don't prune those trees, they're on your roof.
01:15:12.020 | So you have to do it, it's part of homeownership.
01:15:15.420 | So I went with a less expensive tree company, a certified arborist, but a less expensive
01:15:22.820 | company than I usually use.
01:15:25.580 | So this time it was $4,000, in the end I spent 5,000, the men were great, however, he had
01:15:33.180 | them booked for one day only, so they were here for 11 hours, by the time they were done,
01:15:39.340 | they were so exhausted, they were making mistakes, cutting off limbs they should not have, cutting
01:15:44.620 | them in the wrong spot, and in addition, I felt so, they work so hard, I gave them double
01:15:50.900 | the tip I normally do, and then their equipment, because it had been raining earlier, sunk
01:15:56.580 | into the soil, so then when they left I had large holes, which will stay there forever
01:16:03.580 | unless I have them filled with sod put over it, by the time it was done I paid well over
01:16:09.220 | $5,000.
01:16:10.220 | Yeah, I used to cheap out on things that were important to me, like musical instruments
01:16:16.880 | and stuff, like synthesizers, I love synthesizers, and I'd buy the cheapest version, but then
01:16:22.900 | I realized you buy the nicest version, because one, you're going to get so much joy using
01:16:27.260 | a really nicely engineered piece of equipment, but then you could sell it, it'll hold its
01:16:31.960 | value more, so you could sell it later and it's actually not as expensive as the cheaper
01:16:36.140 | version because you could maybe even make money from it, let alone spend money on it,
01:16:40.340 | whereas the cheap version it's just going to be thrown in the landfill in two years.
01:16:44.620 | But what you said is you get the joy of using it, it's like the joy of having something,
01:16:51.400 | you know, just a nice thing that you can, a nice coffee mug even, you know, that just
01:16:56.840 | feels nice, or a nice piece of clothing, a nice, you know, a dress or a jacket that you
01:17:02.880 | wear that just feels nice on and the material is so nice, it's the joy of owning it as part
01:17:08.720 | of, you know, spending money on something pleasurable in life.
01:17:14.760 | Excellent.
01:17:16.680 | On that note, Brandon, thanks again.