Jeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools

00:00:00.000 | - Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:00:02.280 | where we discuss science and science-based tools

00:00:04.880 | for everyday life.

00:00:05.900 | I'm Andrew Huberman,

00:00:10.240 | and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

00:00:13.120 | at Stanford School of Medicine.

00:00:14.880 | Today, my guest is Jeff Cavaliere.

00:00:17.140 | Jeff Cavaliere holds a master of science

00:00:19.040 | in physical therapy,

00:00:20.120 | and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist.

00:00:23.000 | He did his training at the University of Connecticut stores,

00:00:25.740 | one of the top five programs in the world

00:00:27.840 | in physical therapy and sports medicine.

00:00:30.480 | I discovered Jeff Cavaliere over 10 years ago

00:00:33.480 | from his online content.

00:00:35.440 | His online content includes information

00:00:37.680 | about how to train for strength,

00:00:39.360 | how to train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth,

00:00:42.000 | how to train for endurance,

00:00:43.580 | as well as how to rehabilitate injuries

00:00:46.000 | to avoid muscular imbalances, nutrition,

00:00:49.120 | and supplementation.

00:00:51.160 | I've always found his content

00:00:52.640 | to be incredibly science-based, incredibly clear,

00:00:56.320 | sometimes surprising, and always incredibly actionable.

00:00:59.880 | It is therefore not surprising

00:01:01.200 | that he has one of the largest online platforms

00:01:03.400 | for fitness, nutrition, supplementation,

00:01:05.440 | and injury rehabilitation.

00:01:07.120 | Jeff has also worked with an enormous number

00:01:09.280 | of professional athletes

00:01:10.640 | and has served as head physical therapist

00:01:12.440 | and assistant strength coach for the New York Mets.

00:01:15.080 | Again, the content that Jeff Cavaliere has posted online

00:01:17.840 | has been so immensely useful to me over the years

00:01:20.720 | that I was absolutely thrilled to get the chance

00:01:23.000 | to sit down with him and ask him about everything

00:01:25.820 | from how to train in terms of how to split up the body parts

00:01:29.960 | that you train across the week,

00:01:31.100 | how to integrate strength training and endurance training,

00:01:34.160 | when to stretch, how to stretch.

00:01:36.440 | Indeed, we talked about nutrition.

00:01:37.980 | We talk a bit about supplementation.

00:01:40.000 | We talk about how to really avoid creating imbalances

00:01:43.460 | in muscle and in neural control over muscle.

00:01:46.580 | So one thing that's really wonderful about Jeff

00:01:48.240 | is he really has an understanding of not just how muscles

00:01:51.200 | and bones and tendons and ligaments work together,

00:01:53.160 | but how the nervous system interfaces with those.

00:01:55.680 | We talked about the mental side of training,

00:01:57.540 | including when to bring specific concentration

00:01:59.940 | to the muscles that you're training

00:02:01.160 | and when to think more about how to move weights

00:02:03.920 | through space and think more about the movements overall.

00:02:07.420 | I'm certain that you'll find the conversation that we held

00:02:09.880 | to be immensely useful and informative

00:02:12.180 | for your fitness practices

00:02:13.640 | and also for how you mentally approach fitness in general

00:02:16.980 | and how to set up a lifelong fitness practice,

00:02:19.600 | one that will give you the strength that you desire,

00:02:21.980 | one that will give you the aesthetic results that you desire,

00:02:24.820 | one that will set you up for endurance

00:02:26.600 | and cardiovascular health,

00:02:28.000 | basically an overall fitness program.

00:02:30.240 | I really feel this is where Jeff Cavaliere shines

00:02:32.400 | above and beyond so many of the other PTs and fitness

00:02:35.300 | so-called influencers that are out there.

00:02:37.420 | Again, everything is grounded in science.

00:02:39.360 | Everything is clear and everything is actionable.

00:02:42.800 | And while we do cover an enormous amount of information

00:02:45.280 | during today's episode,

00:02:46.560 | if you want to dive even deeper into that information,

00:02:49.560 | you can go to athletenext.com

00:02:51.440 | where you'll find some of Jeff's programs.

00:02:53.660 | You can also find him at AthleanX on YouTube.

00:02:57.160 | There you will find videos, for instance,

00:02:58.960 | like the how to repair or heal from lower back pain,

00:03:01.920 | something that I actually followed directly

00:03:03.800 | long before I ever met Jeff, has over 32 million views.

00:03:06.880 | And that is not by accident,

00:03:08.240 | is because the protocols there, again,

00:03:10.080 | are surprising and actionable.

00:03:11.880 | They relieved my back pain very quickly without surgery.

00:03:15.120 | So I'm immensely grateful for that content.

00:03:17.480 | And it extends into everything from, again,

00:03:19.920 | hypertrophy, endurance, and strength training, and so on.

00:03:22.480 | Again, it's athletenext.com as the website,

00:03:24.900 | athletenext on YouTube, and also athletenext on Instagram.

00:03:28.620 | The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to announce

00:03:30.580 | that we've partnered with Momentus Supplements.

00:03:32.820 | We've done that for several reasons.

00:03:34.100 | First of all, the quality of their supplements

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00:03:37.700 | Second of all, we wanted to have a location

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00:03:58.820 | Right now, not all of the supplements

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00:04:16.900 | Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

00:04:18.780 | that this podcast is separate from my teaching

00:04:20.760 | and research roles at Stanford.

00:04:22.500 | It is however, part of my desire and effort

00:04:24.720 | to bring zero cost to consumer information

00:04:26.720 | about science and science related tools

00:04:28.760 | to the general public.

00:04:30.220 | In keeping with that theme,

00:04:31.260 | I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

00:04:34.060 | Our first sponsor is Athletic Greens, now called AG1.

00:04:37.740 | I started taking AG1 way back in 2012.

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00:04:43.440 | The reason that I started taking AG1

00:04:45.180 | and the reason I still take AG1 twice a day

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00:04:50.280 | for mental health, physical health, and performance.

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00:05:12.340 | to our hormone health, to the so-called gut brain axis.

00:05:15.520 | That is our gut and our brain are in direct communication

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00:05:20.620 | our ability to think, and overall brain health.

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00:08:35.180 | And now for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.

00:08:38.420 | Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.

00:08:40.940 | - I'm glad to be here, it's amazing.

00:08:42.680 | - I'm a long time consumer of your content.

00:08:46.420 | I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness,

00:08:50.280 | both in the weight room, cardio, nutrition,

00:08:52.560 | things that I've applied for over a decade.

00:08:55.100 | So for me, this is particularly meaningful.

00:08:57.460 | And my goal here is really to ask a bunch of questions

00:09:01.620 | to which I'm interested in the answers,

00:09:03.580 | but also for which I know the audience

00:09:05.820 | is really curious about.

00:09:07.500 | So one of your mantras is,

00:09:11.180 | if you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete.

00:09:13.180 | And I think that's something really special

00:09:14.900 | that sets aside what you do

00:09:17.040 | from what a lot of other very well qualified people do.

00:09:21.740 | And in terms of the use of weights and resistance,

00:09:26.220 | whether or not it's body weight or weights in the gym

00:09:28.820 | or pulleys versus cardio,

00:09:31.180 | you know, in terms of overall health, aesthetics,

00:09:33.540 | and athleticism, is there a way that you could point to,

00:09:36.800 | you know, the idea that maybe people should be doing,

00:09:40.140 | you know, 50% resistance training and 50% cardio,

00:09:44.420 | maybe it's 70/30, maybe it's 30/70.

00:09:47.400 | And here I'm talking about the typical person

00:09:49.760 | who would like to maintain,

00:09:51.300 | or maybe even add some muscle mass,

00:09:54.540 | probably in particular areas for most people,

00:09:56.860 | as opposed to just overall mass,

00:09:58.260 | although we'll talk about that later.

00:09:59.620 | And people want to maintain a relatively low body fat

00:10:01.900 | percentage and being good cardiovascular health.

00:10:04.340 | What's the sort of contour of a basic program

00:10:07.260 | that anybody could think about as a starting place?

00:10:10.460 | - I think it's like a 60/40 split,

00:10:13.500 | which would be leaning towards weight training,

00:10:16.020 | you know, strength, and then, you know,

00:10:18.740 | the conditioning aspect be about 40%.

00:10:20.620 | So if you look at it over the course of a training week,

00:10:22.900 | I mean, five days in a gym would be a great task.

00:10:25.420 | And obviously not in the gym, it could be done at home,

00:10:27.500 | but three days strength training,

00:10:29.980 | Monday, Wednesday, Friday, conditioning,

00:10:31.900 | Tuesday, Thursday, you know, two days.

00:10:33.340 | It's a pretty easy roundabout way to split that up.

00:10:36.740 | Of course, depending upon training goals,

00:10:38.740 | and as you said, the aesthetic goals,

00:10:40.220 | like that will shift dramatically,

00:10:42.100 | but if you want to see the benefits of both,

00:10:44.940 | that's probably the effective dose for strength training

00:10:48.100 | and the effective dose for conditioning

00:10:49.820 | at the bare minimum level.

00:10:50.980 | Again, being a much better performer condition wise,

00:10:54.020 | you're going to want to do more than that.

00:10:55.420 | - And in terms of the duration of those workouts,

00:10:58.180 | what's your suggestion?

00:10:59.340 | I've been weight training for about 30 years,

00:11:01.460 | running for about 30 years, and mainly for health,

00:11:06.380 | and have found that if I work hard in the gym

00:11:10.500 | or at resistance training for more than 60 minutes or so,

00:11:14.020 | it's very hard for me to recover.

00:11:15.420 | I start getting colds.

00:11:16.340 | I start getting weaker from workout to workout.

00:11:18.460 | But amazingly, at least to me,

00:11:20.260 | if I keep those workouts to about 10 minutes of warmup

00:11:23.540 | and 50 five zero minutes or so of really hard work

00:11:28.020 | for resistance training,

00:11:29.500 | and I keep the cardiovascular work to about 30 to 45 minutes,

00:11:34.380 | I feel great, and I seem to make some progress

00:11:37.060 | at least someplace in the workout from workout to workout.

00:11:39.900 | - Yeah, I mean, those are good numbers

00:11:42.180 | 'cause those are kind of numbers that we usually preach.

00:11:43.780 | We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less if possible.

00:11:46.700 | Now, depending upon the split that you're following,

00:11:49.180 | if you're on a total body split,

00:11:50.980 | there's just going to be more that has to be done

00:11:53.060 | in a given amount of time.

00:11:54.980 | That again, if you're training primarily for strength,

00:11:57.380 | that could prolong the workout

00:11:58.620 | 'cause the longer rest times in between sets.

00:12:00.780 | But in general, when you're not focused on that one aspect

00:12:03.740 | but the overall health picture,

00:12:05.100 | then you can get the job done in under an hour.

00:12:08.820 | And again, I always say,

00:12:10.420 | on top of if you want to look like an athlete,

00:12:12.220 | train like an athlete is you can either train long

00:12:14.140 | or you can train hard, but you can't do both.

00:12:16.020 | And I really believe that the focus for me,

00:12:18.820 | I have a busy life.

00:12:19.660 | I have a lot of other things that I do, believe it or not.

00:12:21.820 | And it's like, I want to go hard and I want to go get out.

00:12:25.020 | And I find that my body also responds to that.

00:12:27.860 | I think a lot of guys' bodies respond to that.

00:12:29.580 | And particularly as you start to get older,

00:12:32.860 | I think it's the length of the workout

00:12:35.740 | that actually causes more problems

00:12:37.860 | than the intensity of what you're doing.

00:12:39.940 | Particularly if you're warmed up properly like you said.

00:12:42.420 | I've found personally that my warmup

00:12:44.340 | has had to become more of an integral part of my workout

00:12:46.820 | than it ever has before.

00:12:48.300 | I could get in the gym when I was 20

00:12:51.040 | and I'm going right over, I'm doing the one set,

00:12:53.100 | two sets, I'm ready to go.

00:12:55.280 | And I never do another workout warmup set

00:12:57.140 | for any of the other exercises I do the rest of the day.

00:13:00.140 | That's not true anymore.

00:13:02.060 | And I found that as long as I'm willing

00:13:03.920 | to sort of give myself a little bit of a warmup,

00:13:06.460 | the intensity is not what bothers me.

00:13:08.380 | I'm very much in control of the weights that I use

00:13:10.940 | and it doesn't bother me.

00:13:12.260 | But if I start to go pretty long,

00:13:14.620 | I start to feel achy or I start to have problems.

00:13:16.620 | So again, depending upon age,

00:13:18.320 | that also plays a factor in the length.

00:13:20.640 | But again, I think everybody can achieve,

00:13:23.580 | on a standard program,

00:13:25.260 | can achieve the results that they want within an hour.

00:13:28.060 | - In terms of splits, you mentioned splits.

00:13:30.100 | And so for those who aren't familiar with this term, splits,

00:13:32.940 | it's really which body parts are you training on which days?

00:13:36.620 | Seems like almost everybody follows

00:13:38.340 | a weekly workout schedule,

00:13:40.300 | although the body of course doesn't care about the week.

00:13:42.860 | There's no reason to think that once every seven days

00:13:44.740 | or twice every seven days makes sense physiologically,

00:13:46.860 | it's just the body doesn't work though.

00:13:48.020 | But that's the way life is structured.

00:13:50.480 | I've seen you discuss three days a week whole body workouts.

00:13:55.480 | I've heard of splits like a pushing one day,

00:14:00.640 | pulling another day, legs another day, a day off, repeat.

00:14:03.680 | I mean, there's so many variations on this.

00:14:05.800 | What are some general themes that we can throw out there

00:14:08.040 | and in order to avoid the huge matrix of possibilities?

00:14:11.780 | You have some wonderful content that points to those.

00:14:13.400 | And we will cap, in our caption show notes,

00:14:15.720 | we will link out to some of those

00:14:17.360 | that are different ways to design splits.

00:14:19.440 | But in terms of giving people a logic

00:14:21.660 | of how to think about splitting up body parts,

00:14:25.220 | what's governing the split?

00:14:27.260 | What are the rules and the logic that dictate a split?

00:14:30.080 | For me, the first rule is will you stick to it, right?

00:14:32.980 | Like if you, 'cause there are split,

00:14:34.240 | I don't particularly like full body splits.

00:14:36.960 | I was actually talking to Jesse about that the other day.

00:14:38.740 | Like I don't necessarily like to have to train everything.

00:14:42.380 | Now, of course the volumes will come down per muscle group.

00:14:45.540 | But if you don't like to do that

00:14:48.340 | and you actually don't look forward to your workout

00:14:50.280 | because you're dreading having to do everything

00:14:52.160 | and feeling maybe too fatigued

00:14:53.920 | by the time your workout's over,

00:14:55.320 | or the fact that those generally do take a little bit longer

00:14:57.700 | and don't fit into your schedule,

00:14:59.460 | I don't care how effective the split is.

00:15:01.440 | A split not done is not effective.

00:15:03.340 | So you need to find one that fits.

00:15:04.920 | So maybe you go into an alternative option

00:15:07.480 | like a push pull legs, like you mentioned.

00:15:09.760 | And that could be done either one cycle through the week

00:15:13.860 | on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday split,

00:15:15.320 | or it could be twice in a week.

00:15:17.200 | So you're actually training six times where you repeat it,

00:15:20.720 | pull push legs, pull push legs,

00:15:22.340 | or however you want to do it

00:15:24.840 | with either a day off in between the three days

00:15:26.960 | or at the end of the six days.

00:15:29.240 | And again, that actually impacts your schedule.

00:15:31.360 | I've broken that down before where it's,

00:15:33.320 | if you put it in between the three days,

00:15:35.440 | it's good because you're giving yourself

00:15:36.640 | an extra rest day in between,

00:15:38.360 | but it starts to shift that day off every week

00:15:41.020 | as we wrap around.

00:15:41.860 | So for those guys that were choosing that seven day schedule

00:15:43.940 | out of convenience in our heads,

00:15:45.880 | it starts to mess with that off day.

00:15:47.480 | So others like to just keep it predictably,

00:15:49.160 | let's say on a Sunday and train six days in a row.

00:15:51.800 | But that's a better way to maybe group

00:15:56.220 | similar muscle actions together,

00:15:59.120 | which I think I definitely prefer that

00:16:01.520 | because if I'm going to be training, pulling movements,

00:16:05.000 | at least there's a synergy between them.

00:16:07.080 | And I feel like I'm looking to achieve one goal that day.

00:16:11.800 | And then, I mean, quite honestly,

00:16:14.000 | you can go back to the bro split days

00:16:16.080 | and those still work effectively.

00:16:18.320 | There's a reason why they worked in the past.

00:16:20.520 | Like, I think that science shows

00:16:22.680 | that there's smarter ways to do them these days.

00:16:24.840 | Like you can come back and hit a related muscle.

00:16:27.800 | So you could do, let's say biceps on one day

00:16:30.440 | and then come back two days later and do back,

00:16:32.900 | realizing again, synergy between the exercises there,

00:16:36.760 | your biceps are going to get restimulated again.

00:16:38.840 | So you could figure out ways to make that work.

00:16:41.040 | But the thing that I think is effective there

00:16:43.080 | is that tends to be one of the ones

00:16:44.200 | that people like the most.

00:16:45.640 | Because they can go in, they get their pump,

00:16:47.520 | they feel good, it's pretty solely focused

00:16:50.840 | on one muscle group.

00:16:51.900 | - Is that the definition of a bro split?

00:16:53.560 | One?

00:16:54.400 | - One muscle group a day, yeah.

00:16:55.480 | - I see.

00:16:56.300 | So it's very much geared towards strength and aesthetics,

00:16:58.280 | really maximizing chest one day.

00:17:00.640 | - Probably more aesthetics than strength, yeah.

00:17:03.040 | - Hence the bro name.

00:17:05.580 | - Yeah, but again, in here I am a science guy

00:17:07.960 | and I can appreciate the benefits of a bro split.

00:17:10.520 | Especially because again, to what end?

00:17:13.240 | Whose goal are we trying to achieve here?

00:17:16.640 | Theirs or ours?

00:17:18.620 | I mean, if I'm applying my standards and my goals

00:17:22.140 | or even athletic ideals, but they just want to get in shape,

00:17:26.340 | then it's perfectly fine to do a bro split in that instance,

00:17:30.500 | if you're sticking to it again,

00:17:32.260 | and you're seeing the results that you want to see from it.

00:17:34.560 | But they're able to really keep their focus on one muscle,

00:17:38.620 | they get to focus on, like look,

00:17:40.600 | a lot of times people struggle with the way

00:17:43.080 | an exercise feels until their second or third set.

00:17:46.100 | Like they don't have that proprioceptive ability

00:17:48.100 | to kind of lock in on an exercise.

00:17:49.760 | So spending a few, not only sets on the same exercise,

00:17:54.440 | but then doing another exercise for the same muscle group

00:17:56.460 | helps them to dial in a little bit better

00:17:57.840 | and get more out of their training.

00:17:59.360 | - Yeah, that raises a really interesting,

00:18:01.280 | I think important question.

00:18:02.380 | Early on when I started resistance training,

00:18:04.680 | which was when I was 16 in high school,

00:18:06.880 | I got in touch with, and I was learning from Mike Mentzer.

00:18:10.880 | - Me too, me too, that's crazy.

00:18:13.600 | - And Mike was very helpful, very, very helpful.

00:18:15.800 | We got to be friendly.

00:18:16.640 | - So if I just read his book,

00:18:17.720 | I didn't get a chance to be him, so I'm jealous right now.

00:18:19.840 | - Well, back then, no internet.

00:18:21.840 | I paid by Western Union type thing to send him some money.

00:18:26.400 | - From the back of the magazine.

00:18:27.240 | - And then he got on the phone with me

00:18:28.980 | and my mother at the time was like,

00:18:30.140 | "Why is this grown man all in the house?"

00:18:32.440 | And he gave me a very straightforward split,

00:18:34.560 | which was shoulders and arms.

00:18:35.520 | One day, he had me taking two days off

00:18:38.040 | and then training legs, and then two days off,

00:18:40.160 | and then chest and back, et cetera.

00:18:41.280 | - And that's a variation of a bro split too,

00:18:43.400 | where you're sort of breaking them down that way,

00:18:45.340 | chest and back, or chest and byes.

00:18:47.360 | - Yeah, and it worked very well for me.

00:18:49.080 | I probably would have, because of my age, I think,

00:18:51.080 | and because I was untrained, largely untrained,

00:18:54.180 | I think it would have grown on many different programs,

00:18:57.020 | but it worked very well for me.

00:18:58.400 | I eventually just made that an every other day thing.

00:19:01.240 | So shoulders and arms, day off, legs, day or two off,

00:19:04.040 | 'cause if you hit legs right, at least for me,

00:19:06.080 | I'm not training the next day.

00:19:08.320 | And then I'm not doing much of anything athletic

00:19:10.760 | the next day, and chest and back, and repeat and so on.

00:19:13.200 | And the reason I found that helpful

00:19:15.280 | is I almost always recovered between workouts.

00:19:19.160 | The six day a week program of push, pull, legs,

00:19:22.280 | push, pull, legs, to me, seems excruciating

00:19:26.040 | from two standpoints.

00:19:27.120 | One is, at least with my recovery abilities,

00:19:30.040 | or lack of recovery abilities,

00:19:31.340 | I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh.

00:19:33.600 | And the other one is, if I'm in the gym

00:19:35.680 | more than four days a week, I really start to fatigue it

00:19:39.220 | about the whole psychological experience of it.

00:19:41.560 | Whereas if I'm in there three or four days a week,

00:19:43.920 | in other words, if I put a day off in between each workout,

00:19:46.540 | I really want to be there,

00:19:48.080 | and I get in there with a lot of fire.

00:19:51.160 | And I'm also doing other things on the off days.

00:19:52.900 | So I think that I love that you mentioned

00:19:55.200 | the split that you'll stick to,

00:19:56.880 | and that you can bring the intensity to,

00:19:59.140 | because I think that that's really important.

00:20:01.200 | I sometimes hear about two a day training.

00:20:03.400 | I've done two a day training twice in my lifetime,

00:20:05.400 | both times I got sick two days later.

00:20:08.000 | That's correlation, not causation, you know?

00:20:10.520 | But is there ever an instance

00:20:13.560 | where two a day weight training makes sense

00:20:16.060 | for the non-drug assisted, typical recovery ability person?

00:20:21.060 | - I actually, I think it makes sense in some scenarios,

00:20:24.680 | but it doesn't make sense practically

00:20:26.240 | for a lot of people's schedules.

00:20:27.360 | So like, if you could break down,

00:20:29.560 | let's say you were gonna do even some version

00:20:34.120 | of a total body session,

00:20:35.200 | or maybe like you're gonna do an upper lower split, right?

00:20:38.400 | You could do an upper workout and do the anterior chain

00:20:42.520 | or the pushing portion of that in one session,

00:20:45.600 | and then come back and do the pulling session later on

00:20:48.760 | at night if you had the opportunity to.

00:20:51.160 | The thing that you benefit from there

00:20:52.520 | is the freshness of focus.

00:20:54.060 | Again, like something in my head is sacrificed

00:20:57.860 | by the time you get towards the latter half

00:20:59.980 | of whatever workout you're in.

00:21:01.400 | To the same point you made before,

00:21:02.580 | like when you start to approach that 50 minutes,

00:21:04.740 | an hour mark, you are either losing focus,

00:21:07.660 | you're losing energy, you're losing contractile ability,

00:21:10.060 | you're losing something.

00:21:11.400 | And if you're relegating whatever it is,

00:21:14.220 | the pulling portion of that to the end of that workout,

00:21:16.700 | something suffers so that, okay,

00:21:18.580 | if they realize that's happening,

00:21:19.940 | then maybe you switch them up

00:21:21.100 | the next time you do the workout

00:21:22.160 | where the pulling portion of the upper workout goes first,

00:21:24.740 | and then the pushing goes later,

00:21:26.100 | so you're at least not just continuing that cycle.

00:21:29.540 | But at the same time,

00:21:30.780 | if you were able to kind of split them up,

00:21:33.180 | you get a chance to kind of take a break,

00:21:34.840 | you could have that freshness of focus again,

00:21:36.820 | and you could actually get a better effort in.

00:21:38.620 | 'Cause again, I think effort drives the results.

00:21:40.740 | So if the effort is not compromised,

00:21:42.620 | then you should be able to do that.

00:21:44.020 | But systemically, is that a problem?

00:21:46.980 | And I think that it is a problem for a lot of people.

00:21:48.860 | It's just hard to,

00:21:50.580 | it's hard to rev the engine up a lot of times during the day.

00:21:53.020 | You know, you warm that thing up once,

00:21:54.460 | it's like that car in the winter,

00:21:55.500 | you get it going once, you're lucky.

00:21:57.000 | Okay, now you got to drive it the rest of the day.

00:21:58.740 | But, you know, you put it in the garage

00:22:01.500 | and try to start the next day, it's a problem.

00:22:04.080 | So, you know, young people can get away

00:22:06.220 | with a lot more than older people could, you know?

00:22:08.860 | - Well, I've never had a strong recovery quotient,

00:22:10.780 | but if I stick to this one day off in between,

00:22:13.180 | every once in a while, two days in a row of training,

00:22:15.480 | maybe because I have to travel

00:22:16.740 | and I want to make sure I get all the workouts

00:22:18.220 | and kind of thing, I seem to be okay.

00:22:20.260 | I like your example of warming up the car,

00:22:21.920 | spoken like a true East Coast,

00:22:24.100 | or those of us from the West Coast took a moment there,

00:22:27.100 | but folks from the East Coast and the Midwest get it,

00:22:31.500 | and certainly from Europe.

00:22:33.080 | In terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training

00:22:38.960 | and resistance training, same day, different day,

00:22:44.020 | which one should come first, which one should come second?

00:22:47.280 | If one's main goals, again,

00:22:49.700 | everyone listening has different goals,

00:22:51.740 | most people would like to either maintain

00:22:53.120 | or gain some muscle.

00:22:54.540 | I don't know many people that want to lose muscle,

00:22:56.460 | but maintain or gain some muscle,

00:22:57.680 | usually in specific locations on their body.

00:23:00.360 | Most people would like to be a bit leaner or a lot leaner.

00:23:03.000 | There are a few people out there

00:23:03.920 | that are either naturally lean

00:23:05.680 | or actually just want to gain weight,

00:23:07.460 | but assuming that people want to get leaner,

00:23:09.180 | put on some muscle, maintain muscle,

00:23:10.820 | and want to have a healthy heart and a healthy brain,

00:23:13.900 | which basically requires a healthy cardiovascular system,

00:23:17.040 | how would you incorporate the cardiovascular work

00:23:20.020 | into the overall weekly regimen?

00:23:23.660 | - So again, I think that the bare minimum

00:23:26.300 | is probably twice a week in terms of cardiovascular,

00:23:28.780 | if you want to have some semblance

00:23:30.300 | of cardiovascular conditioning.

00:23:31.460 | But I think most people who actually need it more

00:23:33.940 | or want to pursue it more than that

00:23:36.020 | are going to need more time to do that.

00:23:37.800 | So at some point it can't just be relegated to a day off

00:23:41.860 | or a day off from the weight training workouts.

00:23:44.780 | So at some point it has to occur on the same day.

00:23:48.260 | And in that case, I just like to put it,

00:23:50.740 | if that is not your primary goal,

00:23:52.940 | but you're looking more for just the overall picture,

00:23:56.060 | the aesthetics you mentioned,

00:23:56.980 | putting muscle on in certain areas,

00:23:58.680 | then I would put it at the end of the workout.

00:24:00.300 | 'Cause you don't want to in any way compromise

00:24:02.740 | the weight training workout.

00:24:04.020 | And as we've sort of referenced a couple of times already,

00:24:06.500 | the intensity of those workouts is important.

00:24:08.700 | And we know there's a strength component to those workouts

00:24:12.180 | also that is going to be a helpful stimulus for growth.

00:24:17.060 | So the conditioning, the cardio,

00:24:19.460 | that stuff done prior to any strength training workout

00:24:23.560 | is likely going to impair your ability

00:24:25.660 | to perform at your best.

00:24:27.140 | So unless it's just done for a quick little warmup

00:24:29.300 | in the beginning, but then it's not sustained long enough

00:24:31.460 | really to be a benefit for cardiovascular conditioning.

00:24:34.100 | So I just like to put that at the end,

00:24:37.800 | realizing that even if my effort level is lower,

00:24:42.360 | my output is lower,

00:24:43.900 | if it's still placing a demand on my cardiac output

00:24:47.820 | to get that conditioning effect because I'm fatigued,

00:24:51.020 | it still has a demand on my cardiac output.

00:24:52.760 | So it's still achieving its goal,

00:24:54.140 | but it didn't interfere with my main goal

00:24:56.340 | of being able to increase my performance in the gym.

00:24:58.780 | - Got it.

00:24:59.620 | And in terms of the form of cardiovascular training,

00:25:02.260 | I've seen you do a number of, I have to say,

00:25:06.180 | very impressive high intensity interval type work.

00:25:09.200 | So burpee type work or pushups with crunches

00:25:13.540 | mixed into them.

00:25:14.380 | Anyway, people can see your videos.

00:25:15.820 | I didn't describe those in the best way,

00:25:17.780 | but rather than on the treadmill

00:25:20.980 | or out jogging for 30, 45 minutes,

00:25:22.980 | is that because you prefer higher intensity,

00:25:26.020 | higher heart rate type training,

00:25:28.260 | or is it because you live in cold Connecticut

00:25:30.420 | and you don't want to be out jogging on the roads

00:25:33.300 | in the middle of winter?

00:25:35.160 | - I think all of the above.

00:25:36.300 | I mean, those are factors from a personal level,

00:25:38.500 | but I think that if you are,

00:25:42.260 | if we could blend function across these realms

00:25:46.620 | and not have such a delineation between

00:25:49.060 | this is my weight training and this is my conditioning,

00:25:51.460 | but figure out a way to blend them together,

00:25:54.300 | I always think that you've got a better opportunity

00:25:56.820 | to get that more well-rounded result.

00:25:59.640 | And I like to kind of mix up that straight conditioning work

00:26:03.460 | and also some of the footwork drills.

00:26:05.740 | Like we have some high expectations

00:26:07.740 | for guys that come into our programs,

00:26:09.340 | like to just do some footwork drills.

00:26:11.620 | - Like ladders.

00:26:12.460 | - Like ladders or line drills or something.

00:26:14.380 | And you know what happens?

00:26:15.220 | People become intrigued and interested.

00:26:16.940 | Like, I never, I haven't tried this since high school,

00:26:19.780 | you know, and they become interested

00:26:22.300 | in just the challenge of it.

00:26:23.580 | And as we become almost distracted by the challenge,

00:26:26.400 | we're now like finding ourselves conditioning, you know?

00:26:28.860 | And I always think that's an important part

00:26:31.340 | that sometimes you got to draw people in

00:26:33.380 | to show them what they might be interested in.

00:26:36.820 | And from the output or the effect of it,

00:26:39.120 | I just think that when you're able to blend

00:26:40.900 | some of, you know, still maintain

00:26:42.420 | some of that strength training into the exercise.

00:26:45.380 | So as you mentioned,

00:26:46.220 | let's say I'm doing some kind of a push-up or a burpee.

00:26:47.780 | I mean, there is an anaerobic component to that

00:26:51.960 | that is going to be helpful

00:26:54.060 | rather than just walking or just jogging.

00:26:56.760 | Not to say that that isn't an effective means

00:27:00.540 | for strict cardiac conditioning.

00:27:03.460 | It's one of the ways that we've had for centuries,

00:27:06.580 | you know, to do it.

00:27:07.660 | But I just think that if we can blend it,

00:27:10.140 | then it becomes maybe a little bit more interesting

00:27:12.460 | and you get some of those crossover benefits

00:27:14.660 | and it doesn't become so segmented

00:27:16.240 | in terms of what we're trying to do.

00:27:17.920 | - I love the idea of bringing some mental challenge

00:27:20.640 | and some desire to improve a skill while conditioning.

00:27:23.500 | That's not something that I've thought of before.

00:27:24.980 | And it's simply because I've overlooked it,

00:27:26.860 | but it makes sense because my sister who's reasonably fit,

00:27:29.820 | although I'm always trying to get her to do a bit more,

00:27:32.540 | she always asks me, you know, what should I take?

00:27:34.360 | And I believe her in supplements

00:27:36.460 | for certain people in certain instances,

00:27:38.120 | but I keep telling her, you know, behaviors are going to,

00:27:41.820 | and nutrition are going to have

00:27:43.300 | the greatest outsized positive effect.

00:27:45.700 | And she loves things like dance classes and things

00:27:50.020 | or kickboxing, these kinds of things.

00:27:52.080 | So it makes sense that if you can hook somebody

00:27:54.600 | on the conditioning aspect or the skill aspect

00:27:56.800 | and kind of trick them into doing more cardio,

00:27:58.920 | so to speak, that's terrific.

00:28:00.600 | Also, the neuroscientist in me just has to say, forgive me,

00:28:04.780 | that anytime you're engaging the, you know, the two sets

00:28:08.020 | of motor neurons, the ones in your brain,

00:28:09.260 | the upper motor neurons, and the ones in your spinal cord,

00:28:11.020 | anytime you're engaging those upper motor neurons,

00:28:12.700 | which are for deliberate, well-controlled action,

00:28:15.860 | you're doing a great thing for your brain

00:28:17.880 | in terms of brain longevity.

00:28:19.080 | So I'm, now I need to incorporate some actual skills

00:28:22.840 | into my training.

00:28:23.740 | Going back to weight training a bit,

00:28:27.220 | one of the most important things I learned from you,

00:28:30.780 | so over the years, was that when training

00:28:34.920 | to increase muscle size, to really think not so much

00:28:38.780 | about moving weights, but more about challenging muscles.

00:28:41.960 | I also heard this from my friend Ben Paculski,

00:28:45.260 | who's a very well-accomplished, he was a bodybuilder,

00:28:47.840 | now he's into other aspects of fitness, teaches fitness,

00:28:50.320 | but don't move weights, challenge muscles,

00:28:52.400 | unless you're trying to power lift or something of that sort,

00:28:54.660 | which I'm not, immensely helpful.

00:28:57.340 | But the other thing that I learned from you

00:28:59.260 | that I combined with that was this idea

00:29:02.820 | that certain muscles will grow better

00:29:06.080 | and get stronger much more easily,

00:29:07.820 | maybe even will recover better because of our ability

00:29:10.860 | to contract them really hard.

00:29:12.580 | And this, what I call the cavalier test,

00:29:14.620 | which is, at least if I could paraphrase the,

00:29:19.060 | so for instance, if I can, it's always the bicep, isn't it?

00:29:23.300 | Let's use the calf or the bicep.

00:29:25.260 | If you can flex your bicep to the point

00:29:27.940 | where it hurts a little bit,

00:29:29.620 | like it almost feels like a cramp or a cramp,

00:29:31.580 | or you can flex your calf to the point

00:29:32.860 | where it really cramps up a little bit,

00:29:34.260 | almost feels like it's nodding up,

00:29:36.000 | that's a pretty good indication

00:29:37.500 | that you're going to be able to stimulate that muscle well

00:29:40.380 | under load if you're doing the movement properly.

00:29:43.800 | And that's the feeling to actually aim for each repetition,

00:29:46.420 | maybe even throughout the repetition.

00:29:48.940 | For me, this completely transformed my results.

00:29:52.460 | And this was, I think it may be five, six years ago

00:29:54.520 | that I first heard this from you,

00:29:55.900 | body parts that for me, lagged behind,

00:29:58.500 | that I thought maybe genetically

00:29:59.820 | weren't going to work for me,

00:30:01.000 | immediately just started growing, right?

00:30:04.180 | And I was getting stronger and stronger.

00:30:06.100 | And I thought, this is really something,

00:30:07.540 | so much so that I've dedicated a portion of my research,

00:30:11.180 | along with in collaboration with another group,

00:30:13.620 | to try and understand what's happening

00:30:15.980 | in these upper motor neurons in the brain

00:30:18.020 | that can engage the muscles even more.

00:30:20.200 | And that it's not just about progressive overload

00:30:22.660 | or putting a pump into the muscle,

00:30:25.180 | that it's really, this mind-muscle connection

00:30:28.080 | is a real thing when it comes to predicting results

00:30:30.620 | and that you can get better at it.

00:30:32.400 | So forgive me for paraphrasing

00:30:34.840 | your incredible content around this.

00:30:36.340 | It made a tremendous difference for me

00:30:38.660 | and a number of other people that I've passed that along to.

00:30:40.980 | But what can you, first of all, how did you arrive at that?

00:30:44.060 | Because we hear about the mind-muscle connection,

00:30:46.780 | but I really heard it first from you.

00:30:48.540 | How did you arrive at this kind of cramp test,

00:30:50.360 | the cavalier test, as I'll call it?

00:30:52.540 | It's always weird when people name things

00:30:53.700 | after themselves in science,

00:30:54.980 | but other scientists can name things.

00:30:56.820 | So there is now officially the cavalier test

00:30:58.860 | is whether or not you can cramp the muscle

00:31:01.140 | in the absence of load, just flexing it

00:31:03.360 | to the point where it hurts a little bit.

00:31:04.660 | That would be a good indication

00:31:06.840 | that you could grow that muscle well.

00:31:08.780 | So how did you come up with this?

00:31:10.860 | - I mean, it just, honestly,

00:31:12.500 | it's something that made sense to me

00:31:14.940 | because during my workouts,

00:31:17.440 | even as a young kid just starting out,

00:31:20.340 | I always wanted to know what is it working?

00:31:22.580 | A lot of people ask that question more so than you think.

00:31:24.740 | What is this supposed to work?

00:31:26.300 | And a lot, and I don't know if you've ever noticed,

00:31:28.740 | but like when people ask that question,

00:31:30.420 | if they're being trained by a trainer

00:31:32.260 | and the trainer is saying, well, just do this,

00:31:34.500 | do this exercise and they'll show you how to do it.

00:31:37.020 | But then they'll say, but what is it supposed to work?

00:31:39.260 | Where am I supposed to feel this, right?

00:31:40.840 | People, they just inherently ask that question.

00:31:43.580 | A lot of people will.

00:31:45.080 | I was one of those that did that.

00:31:46.340 | And I asked that question,

00:31:47.400 | not because I knew what I was doing,

00:31:48.460 | but just because I don't know,

00:31:49.600 | I wanted to know what was supposed to be doing the work.

00:31:53.200 | Once you do that and you start to seek that out

00:31:55.800 | and say, okay, well,

00:31:56.640 | the bicep is what's supposed to be doing the work.

00:31:59.400 | Then I want to make sure the bicep's doing the work, right?

00:32:01.740 | So then I would just sort of really tweak the movement

00:32:05.040 | to make it do more work or feel more uncomfortable

00:32:07.720 | or get a stronger contraction,

00:32:09.040 | knowing if that's supposed to do the job.

00:32:11.040 | It wasn't until PT school that I'm learning,

00:32:13.300 | oh, well, flexion of the elbow is the brachialis

00:32:15.920 | and the biceps and the biceps responsible for supination.

00:32:18.820 | I learned other components of it,

00:32:20.440 | but all I wanted to know was to bring my arm up in a curl,

00:32:23.360 | what is supposed to do the job?

00:32:25.000 | So I would seek out ways to make that happen better.

00:32:30.000 | And when I was able to do that,

00:32:31.720 | I could feel the stronger contraction.

00:32:33.740 | And I just, I don't know what, I just, I was no visionary.

00:32:36.240 | I just felt like I knew that that was going to be better

00:32:38.760 | for me if the muscle I was trying to grow

00:32:40.840 | was being stressed more effectively.

00:32:43.240 | So when I was attempting to do this

00:32:47.120 | across different exercises,

00:32:48.680 | I would notice that what I could do potentially

00:32:51.680 | on a curl where my arm is up,

00:32:54.560 | where you asked me to flex my bicep, that position,

00:32:57.480 | I couldn't do if I was doing a concentration curl

00:33:00.880 | or I couldn't carry over to a cable curl.

00:33:03.800 | And that shouldn't really change, right?

00:33:06.240 | 'Cause the function is still largely the same.

00:33:08.520 | There's still elbow flexion, there's still supination.

00:33:10.920 | Like, why am I not able to do it there?

00:33:13.340 | And that's where it sort of clued into me that like,

00:33:16.160 | your mind muscle connection on not just your mind

00:33:19.880 | with one muscle, but on every exercise matters.

00:33:22.720 | And it varies from exercise to exercise.

00:33:25.160 | And even if you don't gain muscle size from doing that,

00:33:28.480 | although I think it's very hard not to,

00:33:30.360 | especially if you're not used to doing that,

00:33:32.400 | there's a term I like to call muscularity,

00:33:35.160 | you know, which is a difference, right?

00:33:36.760 | It's the level of sort of resting tone in the muscle.

00:33:39.340 | That improves dramatically.

00:33:41.120 | You know, if you can learn how to just start

00:33:43.200 | to engage that muscle better, the muscularity,

00:33:47.680 | the resting tone of that muscle is harder,

00:33:50.320 | it's more at attention, it's more alive, you know?

00:33:55.320 | And that's all driven from being able

00:33:58.000 | to connect better neurologically with the muscle

00:34:00.360 | that you're trying to train.

00:34:02.080 | I've talked about a lot, inefficiency is really

00:34:05.480 | what you're trying to seek in movements

00:34:07.480 | when you're trying to create hypertrophy.

00:34:09.440 | When strength is your goal, efficiency of the movement

00:34:12.080 | is what you're looking for.

00:34:13.040 | You're looking to have muscles tied together

00:34:15.480 | and work well efficiently, the chest, the shoulders,

00:34:18.040 | the triceps, to get a bar off of your chest

00:34:20.280 | during a bench press.

00:34:21.240 | You're not looking to make it a very inefficient,

00:34:24.680 | you know, leverages for your chest

00:34:26.440 | to try to grow your chest in a bench press.

00:34:28.520 | You're trying to let the whole package come together

00:34:31.160 | for a greater output.

00:34:32.340 | But when you're trying to go and create muscle hypertrophy,

00:34:35.040 | or even this muscularity that I talk about,

00:34:37.200 | you need to seek ways to make it feel more uncomfortable.

00:34:40.160 | Right, if you don't feel the discomfort,

00:34:41.960 | then you're doing something wrong.

00:34:43.320 | And I struggle to this day on certain muscle groups

00:34:46.360 | to still do that, even knowing what I'm trying to work

00:34:48.960 | and knowing what the goal of everything I'm preaching here.

00:34:51.760 | It's very difficult for some muscles

00:34:53.480 | and for certain people to do this on certain muscles.

00:34:55.560 | But as you mentioned, practice does help.

00:34:58.860 | And the more you become consistent and deliberate

00:35:02.280 | with what you're trying to do,

00:35:03.440 | the more of a result you actually get.

00:35:05.940 | - It's a couple of really poor boys

00:35:08.520 | I'd like to delve into further.

00:35:12.060 | First of all, my hunch was always that the muscle groups

00:35:15.900 | that grew most easily and that I could contract hardest

00:35:19.740 | without any, the first time I did the Cavalier test

00:35:22.860 | got 10 out of 10, if we give it a 10 out of 10 scale.

00:35:25.100 | You know, it could just like cinch, isolate those muscles,

00:35:27.200 | cinch them, grow them easily.

00:35:28.880 | I mean, there's certain body parts,

00:35:30.180 | I don't want to say which ones

00:35:31.020 | 'cause it doesn't really matter,

00:35:32.520 | that I always felt like if I just did pushups,

00:35:34.600 | they would grow and these muscles are far away

00:35:36.360 | from any of the muscles

00:35:37.200 | that are supposed to be involved in pushups.

00:35:38.500 | Even though I like to think I'm doing pushups correctly.

00:35:41.220 | You'll tell me if I'm not.

00:35:43.740 | But some of that I think is genetic

00:35:46.140 | and some of that has to do with the sports

00:35:48.340 | that I played when I was younger.

00:35:49.780 | So I swam, I played soccer, I skateboard.

00:35:52.060 | And then later I boxed.

00:35:53.100 | And so the muscles involved in those sports

00:35:56.100 | were always very easy to engage

00:35:58.100 | later when I went into the gym.

00:36:00.300 | So I guess perhaps a call to parents,

00:36:03.660 | having kids do a lot of dynamic activity

00:36:06.580 | seems like it might be a good idea.

00:36:08.300 | The other thing is this issue of muscularity,

00:36:11.460 | I am so glad you brought that up.

00:36:12.860 | There are, I have to imagine,

00:36:14.700 | a large number of listeners who don't want to get bigger.

00:36:17.980 | They don't want to take up a larger clothing size.

00:36:21.320 | They don't want to take up more space.

00:36:23.340 | In fact, some of them would like to take up less space,

00:36:25.160 | but they want that quality that you're describing,

00:36:28.440 | which is oftentimes you hear it more in the,

00:36:31.740 | here I'm stereotyping a bit, but with kindness,

00:36:34.740 | you hear from women who are having weight training,

00:36:37.420 | they say, "I don't want to get big," often.

00:36:38.980 | Sometimes they do.

00:36:39.820 | But most women that I've helped weight train

00:36:41.820 | or talked to about weight training say,

00:36:42.720 | "I don't want to get big, I want to get toned."

00:36:44.420 | And I think what they're referring to

00:36:46.060 | is this quality of muscularity.

00:36:48.640 | This idea that at resting or at close to rest,

00:36:52.000 | or anytime someone reaches out and grabs a glass,

00:36:54.080 | that the muscles almost look like

00:36:55.520 | they're kind of twitching underneath the skin,

00:36:57.380 | and yet it's not saran wrap skin, anatomy chart type skin.

00:37:00.560 | So this thing of muscularity or resting tone

00:37:06.340 | has a physiological basis.

00:37:07.620 | I think it's how readily the nerves

00:37:09.700 | are communicating with the muscles.

00:37:11.220 | And you're saying that by learning to engage the muscles

00:37:14.740 | more actively, the resting tone or muscularity can improve.

00:37:18.220 | Have you seen that both in men and women?

00:37:20.420 | - Yeah. - Oh yeah.

00:37:21.260 | - And do you think this is something

00:37:22.740 | that takes upkeep, maintenance,

00:37:25.920 | or that once you develop that in a muscle,

00:37:28.220 | you can just kind of let it coast?

00:37:29.620 | - So I think everything requires upkeep.

00:37:33.140 | Use or lose it, I do believe firmly.

00:37:35.500 | But I think that the development of the connection

00:37:38.900 | is gonna be harder than the maintenance of the connection.

00:37:41.140 | As I said, I still struggle to this day myself

00:37:43.780 | with unnamed muscle groups also.

00:37:47.260 | But there's just certain areas

00:37:51.820 | that are harder for your brain for whatever reason

00:37:54.660 | to just develop that connection at that type of level

00:37:57.820 | to create that extra strong contraction.

00:38:00.660 | But I think that with proper dedication and focus,

00:38:04.900 | I'll go right out and say,

00:38:06.140 | calves is one of the areas

00:38:07.180 | that I don't necessarily have a great connection with.

00:38:09.700 | And I also obviously must not care so much

00:38:12.320 | 'cause I don't put in the time and effort

00:38:14.020 | to create that connection as I could.

00:38:18.300 | So I think what might happen is,

00:38:20.620 | yeah, there could be a struggle there,

00:38:21.880 | but then with struggle comes disinterest.

00:38:24.220 | 'Cause you're like, well, screw it, I'm a calf knot

00:38:26.300 | and I'm not gonna do anything about it.

00:38:27.660 | So I think if you put the required effort in

00:38:31.580 | and the time and repetitions that you will develop that.

00:38:34.020 | And once you do develop it,

00:38:35.100 | it's gonna stick around a lot longer than it would

00:38:37.420 | had you not invested any time into it at all.

00:38:40.500 | Not requiring as much of that.

00:38:41.820 | But I mean, I don't know,

00:38:43.620 | you mentioned now when you train, it's like,

00:38:46.520 | this is just part of how you train now.

00:38:49.720 | Like you're going hard,

00:38:50.740 | you're trying to really forcefully contract.

00:38:53.420 | You're not just moving the weight,

00:38:55.280 | I say from point A to point B,

00:38:57.060 | but you're like trying to contract the weight

00:38:59.420 | through that range.

00:39:01.200 | That is a mindset that I try to put into

00:39:04.300 | what everything I'm doing,

00:39:05.460 | unless of course I'm focused on a strength exercise

00:39:08.240 | where I'm just trying to lift a greater amount

00:39:11.120 | and use all the muscles together.

00:39:12.860 | But when the goal is inefficiency for hypertrophy,

00:39:15.680 | I am really trying to create that contraction

00:39:19.720 | and it's just part of my training.

00:39:21.360 | So I guess that for consistency's sake,

00:39:24.900 | as long as I'm training, it's happening.

00:39:27.360 | If I get away from training, then it's not happening at all.

00:39:29.520 | But even there, I probably,

00:39:31.780 | another embarrassing admission,

00:39:33.000 | probably will mindfully do it throughout the day,

00:39:35.480 | even with the weight in my hand,

00:39:37.180 | in certain muscle groups,

00:39:38.260 | whether it be my abs or my arm or my shoulders or something,

00:39:40.900 | I'm doing something just to sort of engage the muscles.

00:39:42.980 | And I do think that some of that sort of inane practice

00:39:46.620 | actually helps by the time you go back into the gym.

00:39:48.860 | You just kind of keep that connection going.

00:39:52.220 | - Well, it certainly obeys all the rules of neuroplasticity,

00:39:55.900 | the fire together, wire together mantra,

00:39:57.840 | which is the words of my colleague, Carla Schatz,

00:40:01.060 | hold true for all aspects of neural function,

00:40:03.420 | including nerve to muscle.

00:40:05.060 | So these flexing throughout the day

00:40:06.660 | or the deliberate isolation

00:40:09.060 | of contracting a muscle throughout the day

00:40:11.180 | is without question engaging neuroplasticity.

00:40:14.020 | And if you were to do fewer of those repetitions,

00:40:15.820 | you're going to get less engagement

00:40:17.360 | of the nerve to muscle connection.

00:40:18.780 | I can say this with a smile and with confidence,

00:40:22.100 | because one of the first things

00:40:23.540 | all neuroscience students learn

00:40:24.840 | is about the neuromuscular junction,

00:40:26.440 | because it's a really simple example

00:40:28.860 | of where the more times the nerve fires

00:40:30.740 | and gets the muscle to contract,

00:40:32.200 | the stronger that connection gets,

00:40:33.540 | receptors are brought there, et cetera, et cetera.

00:40:35.380 | There's a whole bunch of mechanisms

00:40:36.940 | for the topic of another podcast.

00:40:39.120 | But basically that practice throughout the day

00:40:43.620 | makes total sense and works.

00:40:45.900 | - Yeah, and there's no, believe me,

00:40:47.260 | there's no science behind that

00:40:48.660 | in terms of the application of it.

00:40:50.420 | You do it when, you catch yourself doing it

00:40:53.340 | from time to time, you know?

00:40:54.260 | But it is definitely something that's easily done

00:40:56.900 | discreetly and you wind up doing it.

00:40:59.220 | I actually, I think in a recent video

00:41:01.120 | when I did talk about growing your arms

00:41:05.020 | by just improving the connection,

00:41:07.340 | not that that connection itself is applying any load

00:41:10.240 | or resistance that's significant

00:41:12.540 | to create overload for growth,

00:41:13.940 | but it's the development of that connection

00:41:16.280 | that I then take back with me into the gym

00:41:18.080 | at a more effective level

00:41:19.440 | that takes every exercise I do there

00:41:21.100 | and makes it more effective.

00:41:22.180 | - That's like sharpening the blade.

00:41:24.020 | - So to speak.

00:41:24.860 | Yeah, certainly obeys the laws

00:41:27.420 | of nerve to muscle physiology.

00:41:29.640 | Want to just touch on a couple of things.

00:41:33.200 | If the goal is to challenge muscles

00:41:36.300 | and one is dividing their body into,

00:41:38.300 | let's say, you know, a three or four day a week split or so,

00:41:41.460 | or maybe up to six,

00:41:42.760 | how do you know when a muscle

00:41:46.220 | is ready to be challenged again?

00:41:48.060 | I've heard, okay, every 48 hours

00:41:50.180 | is, you know, protein synthesis increases

00:41:52.260 | and then we'll get into this.

00:41:53.420 | And then it drops off.

00:41:54.700 | But frankly, if I train my legs hard,

00:41:59.500 | I can get stronger from workout to workout,

00:42:01.660 | or at least better in some way,

00:42:03.300 | workout to workout, leg workout to leg workout,

00:42:06.260 | training them once every five to eight days.

00:42:09.460 | If I train them more often, I get worse.

00:42:12.900 | So whatever that 48 hour to 72 hour thing is,

00:42:17.180 | somehow my legs don't obey that,

00:42:18.940 | but you know, or maybe something else is wrong with me,

00:42:21.380 | but I'm sure there are many things else wrong with me,

00:42:23.580 | but how do you assess recovery at the local level,

00:42:27.880 | meaning at the level of the muscles?

00:42:29.420 | So we'll talk about soreness and getting better,

00:42:32.140 | stronger, more repetitions, et cetera.

00:42:33.940 | And then the systemic level,

00:42:35.300 | the level of the nervous system.

00:42:36.820 | And I'd love for you to tell us about the tool that,

00:42:39.980 | again, I learned from you,

00:42:40.940 | which is actually using a physical scale,

00:42:43.180 | because it turns out this is,

00:42:44.940 | that will let you tell what the tool is,

00:42:47.540 | but that tool is also actively being used

00:42:50.620 | for assessing cognitive decline

00:42:52.820 | and cognitive maintenance and cognitive function

00:42:55.320 | in people with Alzheimer's and dementia.

00:42:57.820 | - Makes total sense, makes total sense.

00:42:59.980 | I, all right, so regarding the first part of the question,

00:43:04.980 | like, you know, how do you,

00:43:07.040 | how would you kind of dictate when a muscle's recovered?

00:43:09.540 | So I do think that what you're experiencing is totally real,

00:43:14.460 | that different muscles recover at different rates.

00:43:17.200 | And I've always been so fascinated by this concept

00:43:21.100 | I've talked about internally with my team,

00:43:22.980 | but like, I feel like what we really need,

00:43:25.840 | the holy grail to training is going to be

00:43:29.460 | when we're able to crack the code on an individual basis,

00:43:32.660 | when a muscle is recovered,

00:43:34.700 | and that is going to dictate its training schedule.

00:43:37.540 | And the fact that you might have a bicep

00:43:40.940 | that could be trained, you know, via a pulling workout,

00:43:44.420 | a regular bicep dedicated workout,

00:43:45.780 | forget the split at the moment,

00:43:46.780 | you might have a bicep that's able to be trained

00:43:49.100 | that can be trained again the next day, you know,

00:43:52.900 | and then the next day.

00:43:53.740 | And then maybe you need a day off after that.

00:43:55.220 | But like, you know, in that,

00:43:56.860 | that can vary from person to person for sure.

00:43:59.140 | And it can vary from muscle to muscle in that person

00:44:01.780 | over the course of time, as you mentioned,

00:44:04.260 | 'cause the systemic recovery is going to impact

00:44:06.500 | all those muscles anyway.

00:44:07.680 | But let's say you're systemically recovering,

00:44:10.260 | every muscle itself is going to have a, you know,

00:44:13.420 | a recovery rate.

00:44:14.340 | And I think what's fascinating is that

00:44:16.560 | when you talked about before,

00:44:17.900 | we like to train this week,

00:44:19.340 | or we have like the way our mind looks at training.

00:44:22.220 | Well, if that was the case with the biceps,

00:44:24.700 | that bicep is a slave to the rest of your training split.

00:44:28.620 | You know, where it's like,

00:44:29.440 | why does it have to be also at the end of every eighth day

00:44:33.220 | or, you know, or whatever,

00:44:34.460 | when it might respond better to something

00:44:36.740 | much more frequently.

00:44:37.740 | And your legs are also being thrown into that mix.

00:44:40.980 | There's a Mike Mentzer concept where he's like,

00:44:42.500 | you know, training, you know,

00:44:43.700 | one set and be done for 14 days.

00:44:46.000 | I mean, you know, there's such variability

00:44:50.120 | between muscle groups

00:44:50.960 | and you're linking them all together.

00:44:54.160 | I think that coming back and using muscle soreness

00:44:59.160 | as a guideline for that is one of the only tools we have

00:45:03.600 | in terms of the local level.

00:45:05.260 | You know, we don't really have, you know,

00:45:06.900 | being able to measure, let's say a CPK levels

00:45:09.600 | inside of a muscle would be amazing, you know,

00:45:11.540 | at a local level to see how recovered that muscle is.

00:45:16.120 | But that becomes fairly invasive,

00:45:17.600 | at least to my knowledge, it becomes fairly invasive.

00:45:20.040 | So what are our tools?

00:45:22.000 | I mean, I think that at the basic level,

00:45:23.880 | that's the one that most people can relate to

00:45:25.260 | and easily identify and then use that as a guideline.

00:45:27.760 | And if you're training when you're really sore,

00:45:29.980 | it's probably not a great idea.

00:45:32.260 | And it's probably a good indication

00:45:33.660 | that that muscle is not recovered,

00:45:35.040 | but at least hearing what you and I are saying here

00:45:37.260 | might be a comfort to the person to say,

00:45:38.600 | yeah, it is possible that it's not recovered.

00:45:41.040 | Just because 48 hours is the recommendation

00:45:43.400 | and just because research points to muscle protein synthesis

00:45:46.020 | needing a restimulation, well, maybe not.

00:45:47.980 | Maybe you're not necessarily there yet.

00:45:49.880 | You're in that, and for that muscle, you're not there yet.

00:45:53.400 | So it's all really interesting stuff.

00:45:54.620 | But as far as the systemic, you know, recovery,

00:45:59.080 | I think there's a lot of ways, you know,

00:46:00.280 | people talk about resting heart rate

00:46:01.860 | measured in the morning, all different kinds of,

00:46:05.880 | you know, core temperature and things like that

00:46:08.140 | that might become altered in a state of non-recovery,

00:46:12.420 | but grip strength is very, very much tied

00:46:15.260 | to performance and recovery.

00:46:18.140 | And when I was at the Mets,

00:46:19.520 | we used to actually take grip strength measurements

00:46:22.180 | as a baseline in spring training all the time.

00:46:24.300 | Now, obviously as a baseball player,

00:46:25.620 | you're gripping a bat, you're a pitcher,

00:46:26.960 | you're gripping a ball, like, you know,

00:46:28.300 | having good grip strength is important.

00:46:29.820 | So if we've noticed somebody had a very weak grip,

00:46:32.000 | it's just a good focal point

00:46:33.440 | of a specialized training component for the program.

00:46:35.740 | - Do you do this every day with those guys?

00:46:37.040 | - No, we would do, in spring training,

00:46:38.540 | we do sort of a baseline entry level measurement,

00:46:41.260 | and then we would measure it throughout the season,

00:46:43.220 | maybe once every two weeks or three weeks.

00:46:45.140 | And, you know, the idea there was to manage the recovery,

00:46:50.040 | measure the recovery, but I just gave it away.

00:46:53.380 | You know, to determine overall recovery,

00:46:57.060 | your grip strength is pretty highly correlated.

00:46:59.080 | So we have found that with one of those scales,

00:47:01.980 | those old fashioned bathroom scales

00:47:03.700 | at like Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever you can get,

00:47:05.860 | which by the way, almost impossible.

00:47:07.780 | I believe Jesse and I were searching for the last scale

00:47:09.840 | to put in that video, and we almost couldn't find one

00:47:12.200 | 'cause everything is like digital and everything,

00:47:14.300 | you know, it's like this,

00:47:15.140 | I'm looking at the old fashioned dial controls.

00:47:17.480 | - It's like old Macintosh computers.

00:47:19.120 | There's a huge market for them.

00:47:21.020 | And old phones, kids, keep your phones now.

00:47:23.800 | In 30 years, the lame phone now will be worth a lot of money.

00:47:27.320 | - Will be worth a lot.

00:47:28.160 | So, you know, I wound up, you know, finding one,

00:47:32.180 | and it's a great tool for just squeezing the scale

00:47:37.060 | with your hands and seeing what type of output you could get.

00:47:40.100 | And I think we all can relate to this

00:47:43.540 | when you just visualize, imagine the last time you were sick

00:47:46.940 | or just try this the next time you wake up in the morning.

00:47:49.580 | When you first wake up in the morning, you're still groggy.

00:47:51.900 | Try to squeeze your hand.

00:47:53.140 | Try to make a fist as hard as you can.

00:47:54.940 | You're gonna sit there angry at your fist

00:47:56.780 | because it won't contract as hard as you know it can.

00:47:59.660 | You don't have the ability to just create the output.

00:48:03.340 | And that is because in that state, you're still sleepy.

00:48:06.540 | You're still fatigued.

00:48:07.620 | You know, you're not even awake at the, you know,

00:48:11.180 | the whole level at this point.

00:48:12.860 | Well, that is still an actual phenomenon that happens

00:48:17.860 | that, you know, a lack of recovery or a lack of wakefulness

00:48:22.320 | or whatever you wanna say is gonna lead

00:48:23.980 | to a decreased output there.

00:48:25.460 | So when you start to measure that on a daily basis,

00:48:28.260 | you can get a pretty good sense of where you're at.

00:48:29.820 | And I think when people start to see a drop off of 10% or so

00:48:33.340 | or even greater of their grip output,

00:48:37.220 | you really should skip the gym that day

00:48:39.220 | because I don't think there's much you're gonna do there

00:48:41.400 | that's going to be that beneficial,

00:48:43.340 | even if it is the day to train legs or whatever day it is.

00:48:46.860 | - I love this tool.

00:48:48.140 | It's simple.

00:48:48.980 | It's low cost if you can find such a scale.

00:48:51.260 | I guess you could also find one of those grippers that,

00:48:53.740 | and you can do this in a very non quantitative way,

00:48:56.340 | but better would be a scale

00:48:57.620 | where you could actually measure

00:48:58.940 | how hard you can squeeze this thing at a given time of day.

00:49:02.740 | It draws to mind just a little neuroscience factoid

00:49:05.100 | in the world of circadian neurobiology.

00:49:07.520 | One of the consistent findings

00:49:09.660 | is that in the middle of your nighttime,

00:49:12.040 | you know, they'll wake people up

00:49:12.900 | and they'll say, do this test.

00:49:14.820 | In the laboratory, they use a different apparatus,

00:49:16.960 | but it's essentially the same thing.

00:49:18.620 | And in the middle of the night,

00:49:19.460 | grip strength is very, very low.

00:49:20.860 | And you know, mid morning, grip strength is high.

00:49:23.260 | And as the body temperature goes up into the afternoon,

00:49:25.700 | grip strength goes higher and higher and higher,

00:49:27.100 | and then it drops off.

00:49:27.940 | There's a circadian rhythm and grip temperature.

00:49:29.900 | So you probably want to do this

00:49:30.820 | at more or less the same time each day,

00:49:33.060 | if you're going to use it.

00:49:33.900 | But I think it's brilliant and in its simplicity

00:49:36.840 | and its directness to these upper motor neurons,

00:49:39.060 | 'cause that's really what it's assessing.

00:49:40.540 | Your ability, again,

00:49:41.540 | it's about the ability to contract the muscles hard.

00:49:43.660 | If you can't do that,

00:49:44.500 | you're not going to get an effective workout.

00:49:45.500 | - Yeah, and they also, I mean,

00:49:46.780 | there certainly are more sophisticated tools too,

00:49:48.900 | as a PT, you know, we have hand grip dynamometers,

00:49:52.660 | you know, and we can measure one side at a time too.

00:49:55.660 | You know, I'm not really, I'm getting a little bit blinded

00:49:58.620 | by the fact that both hands are squeezing into that scale

00:50:00.820 | and I don't get really a left-right comparison.

00:50:03.020 | But even at that level,

00:50:03.920 | that could give you a little bit more detail,

00:50:05.220 | but that comes at a cost.

00:50:06.140 | So they're pretty expensive devices.

00:50:07.580 | But if it's, listen, if you were an athlete,

00:50:09.740 | you know, the 200, 300 bucks it costs to have one of those

00:50:13.200 | would be well worth, you know, the added investment, you know.

00:50:16.020 | - And I'm sure some of our listeners will want one too,

00:50:17.960 | 'cause there are a lot of tech geeks out there.

00:50:20.900 | Not tech industry geeks, but people who like tech gear.

00:50:24.320 | What's it called again?

00:50:25.320 | - It's a hand grip dynamometer.

00:50:26.880 | - Hand grip dynamometer.

00:50:29.040 | Said by Jeff with a great East Coast accent

00:50:32.260 | and by me in a terrible botched at a West Coast version.

00:50:36.660 | Thank you.

00:50:37.500 | We'll put that in the show notes also.

00:50:39.540 | No, I think recovery is key.

00:50:41.680 | We always hear about sleep.

00:50:42.980 | You grow when you sleep and incidentally, your brain,

00:50:45.480 | you stimulate learning when you're awake, obviously,

00:50:48.260 | but the reordering of neural connections happens in sleep.

00:50:51.220 | This is why sleep is the way to get smarter,

00:50:53.640 | provided you're also doing the learning part.

00:50:55.560 | This leaves the way to get stronger,

00:50:56.720 | provided you're also doing the training part.

00:50:58.540 | You've had some really,

00:50:59.780 | you've put out interesting content over the years

00:51:01.740 | in terms of even sleep position.

00:51:04.140 | One of the major changes that I made to my sleep behavior

00:51:08.340 | is to not have the sheets tucked in at the end of the bed.

00:51:11.680 | And I'll tell you,

00:51:12.520 | this had a profound impact on several things.

00:51:14.100 | First of all,

00:51:14.940 | my feet have always been the bane of my existence.

00:51:16.600 | Broke them a bunch skateboarding.

00:51:18.940 | And I noticed when I'd run, I'd get shin splints.

00:51:21.380 | And then I started to notice that my feet sort of,

00:51:23.820 | you're the PT, they were kind of floppy

00:51:26.480 | and as if I was pointing my toes slightly all the time

00:51:29.380 | at rest if I was.

00:51:30.600 | And I realized that based on listening to you previously,

00:51:34.500 | that my sheets were wrapped tight, not hotel tight.

00:51:37.060 | - Right, right.

00:51:37.900 | - I don't know what the thing in the hotels.

00:51:39.660 | And I started releasing the sheets at the end of the bed.

00:51:43.620 | And I also started doing some tibialis work,

00:51:46.460 | front shins work, essentially.

00:51:48.620 | Changed everything.

00:51:49.880 | My back pain from running.

00:51:51.440 | My shin splints disappeared.

00:51:52.840 | My posture improved.

00:51:53.860 | Although my audience will tell me

00:51:55.340 | that it still needs improvement.

00:51:56.340 | There are always five or 10 people that want.

00:51:57.840 | - Sit up straight.

00:51:58.680 | - I've actually had chairs sent our mailing address.

00:52:01.540 | Very nice chairs.

00:52:02.780 | So I'm trying there.

00:52:04.440 | But this is fascinating, right?

00:52:06.960 | The position that one sleeps in.

00:52:09.720 | I fortunately have never had any shoulder issues,

00:52:12.080 | knock on wood.

00:52:13.000 | But maybe you could just talk to us a little bit

00:52:15.320 | about sleep and sleep position

00:52:17.840 | for sake of waking position and movement.

00:52:20.180 | Because this, I think, is a very unique

00:52:22.120 | and very powerful way to think about sleep.

00:52:25.060 | This podcast has done a lot of episodes

00:52:27.100 | about keeping the room cool,

00:52:28.660 | getting sunlight in your eyes, et cetera.

00:52:29.940 | How to get into sleep.

00:52:31.580 | But you've talked about, physically,

00:52:34.440 | what positions might be better to sleep in.

00:52:36.500 | So please enrich us.

00:52:39.180 | - Yeah, I mean, first of all,

00:52:41.000 | some people's opinions of that type of content

00:52:44.060 | is that you sleep in the position that's most comfortable.

00:52:47.520 | So you ensure that you're sleeping.

00:52:49.240 | Oh, great.

00:52:50.120 | I understand that.

00:52:51.140 | We all want to sleep.

00:52:52.080 | That's the goal when we put our head on the pillow

00:52:53.460 | is to actually fall asleep and wake up in the morning

00:52:55.140 | and not know what the hell happened unless you had a dream.

00:52:56.920 | But beyond that,

00:52:59.040 | there are certainly physical components to sleep that.

00:53:02.680 | That is why a lot of times people will wake up and say,

00:53:05.120 | like, you can incur pretty serious injuries in sleep.

00:53:08.720 | People will wake up and have like a shoulder

00:53:10.640 | that did not bother them at all,

00:53:12.300 | be humming the next day or even for weeks after,

00:53:15.760 | because of the one sleep position they put themselves in

00:53:18.000 | in a prolonged way.

00:53:19.560 | And they happen to have a deep sleep

00:53:20.800 | even through the discomfort.

00:53:22.440 | That can do actually some damage.

00:53:25.820 | So it's understandable that the body can incur

00:53:28.720 | some strain and stress if you're sleeping in the wrong way.

00:53:31.720 | One of the things I say right off the bat is,

00:53:33.920 | sleeping on your stomach

00:53:34.960 | doesn't really have many benefits.

00:53:36.560 | You're putting yourself into a position

00:53:39.240 | that is depending upon the orientation of your mattress

00:53:45.160 | or how many pillows you're using,

00:53:46.440 | but you're basically putting yourselves

00:53:47.880 | into excessive extension of the lumbar spine,

00:53:51.680 | which for most people isn't very good.

00:53:53.720 | If you're a disc patient,

00:53:56.000 | I guess that might be helpful for relocating the disc.

00:53:59.320 | But I mean, for the most part,

00:54:01.280 | your hands are then usually not at your sides,

00:54:03.520 | but they're up under your arms.

00:54:04.880 | So you've got them into sort of internal rotation

00:54:06.900 | up over elevation in your head.

00:54:08.480 | It's just not a great position.

00:54:10.160 | You also have to crank your neck for one side or the other

00:54:12.160 | in order to breathe,

00:54:13.080 | or you're going to be your face down straight into the pillow.

00:54:15.480 | So I would skip that one.

00:54:17.680 | And there's some people that are total belly sleepers.

00:54:20.480 | And I would just say, listen,

00:54:22.000 | I don't think that is the most healthful,

00:54:25.040 | long-term way for you to sleep.

00:54:26.520 | Try to adopt a different position.

00:54:28.980 | Sleeping on your side oftentimes

00:54:31.800 | is also brought along with that.

00:54:34.320 | The legs, knees coming up towards the chest,

00:54:36.900 | prolonged hip flexion.

00:54:38.040 | Listen, we're doing enough of that during the day.

00:54:40.080 | - That's what we're doing right now.

00:54:41.440 | - We don't need to do another 10 hours or eight hours

00:54:43.800 | or something at night like that.

00:54:45.520 | And it just is reinforcing.

00:54:48.000 | And as we said too, let's say you trained that day.

00:54:51.520 | You're just reinforcing muscle shortening overnight.

00:54:54.560 | Where the body is healing and trying to create

00:54:57.320 | some changes in your body.

00:55:00.660 | One of the reasons why I recommend stretching

00:55:02.440 | or static stretching prior to going to bed.

00:55:04.520 | A lot of people don't really want to do it at that point

00:55:06.360 | 'cause it could take 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes,

00:55:08.640 | depending upon how many muscles you have to stretch.

00:55:10.240 | But it's good to sort of try to establish

00:55:13.220 | just longer length temporarily prior to going into a state

00:55:16.520 | where you're going to be not moving and recovering

00:55:19.420 | and creating new changes in the muscles.

00:55:22.520 | So that kind of, I don't say it doesn't rule out

00:55:27.520 | the side sleeper.

00:55:28.640 | The side sleeper could be very, very helpful

00:55:30.360 | for somebody that has apnea or other conditions.

00:55:34.000 | So again, it's not an all or nothing approach,

00:55:36.720 | but it's something that you need to pay attention to.

00:55:39.860 | When you are on your back, like you were talking about,

00:55:43.140 | and your feet are wedged underneath a tight sheets

00:55:47.420 | at the end of the bed.

00:55:48.260 | And most of us, unless we consciously are pulling them up,

00:55:51.600 | don't prefer our beds to have really loose sheets

00:55:53.620 | at the end of the bed.

00:55:54.460 | - It's hard to make the bed in the morning.

00:55:55.620 | - Right, so it's like you're going to want to have

00:55:58.680 | them tight.

00:55:59.520 | Well, I'm saying, as you experienced,

00:56:01.700 | you're going to have this prolonged plantar flexion

00:56:07.140 | that's going to likely lead to shorter calves over time

00:56:12.140 | because you're lacking all that length

00:56:14.820 | for that long period of time that you could have

00:56:16.940 | if you just loosened up the sheets

00:56:18.700 | and allowed your feet to just hang out where they are.

00:56:21.120 | Now the resting position of the ankle

00:56:23.260 | is not in dorsiflexion.

00:56:24.340 | It's going to be still in some plantar flexion,

00:56:26.020 | but not being driven down and pulled down

00:56:28.160 | into that position.

00:56:29.980 | And I think what happens actually is people

00:56:31.420 | who get uncomfortable that way, even in their sleep,

00:56:34.660 | will shift away from that by turning either onto their side

00:56:37.300 | of their stomach.

00:56:38.140 | So there's definitely an impact of the body position

00:56:41.100 | in sleep and figuring out the best way

00:56:43.580 | that you can still sleep, of course, and get your rest,

00:56:46.580 | but have a mindful eye towards what it's doing to your body

00:56:49.300 | and choose the one that's least abrasive to your body

00:56:53.420 | is the way you should go.

00:56:55.060 | - Terrific, and again, it's really helped me.

00:56:57.100 | And I'm a big believer based on good science

00:57:01.780 | out of Stanford and elsewhere that as much

00:57:05.060 | as we can be nasal breathers in sleep,

00:57:06.780 | we probably should be.

00:57:07.620 | I don't know if you've done any content yet

00:57:09.840 | about taping the mouth shut with some medical tape,

00:57:12.360 | but the benefits of nasal breathing and sleep

00:57:15.300 | are pretty tremendous,

00:57:16.140 | but it takes a little bit of training for people to do.

00:57:18.060 | And the training is very simple.

00:57:19.280 | It's a little piece of medical tape.

00:57:21.020 | So again, a topic for another time.

00:57:24.100 | I'm glad you mentioned stretching.

00:57:25.340 | I was going to ask about stretching a little bit later,

00:57:26.900 | but let's talk about stretching.

00:57:29.220 | When's the best time to stretch for particular

00:57:32.440 | types of results?

00:57:33.340 | And maybe you could define some of the different types

00:57:34.980 | of stretching.

00:57:36.060 | So you just mentioned a little bit of,

00:57:38.820 | would you call it light stretching or, okay,

00:57:41.460 | I'm completely naive here on stretching.

00:57:43.820 | So let me just say, I can think of stretching

00:57:45.300 | where I hold the stretch and really try and lengthen,

00:57:49.560 | in air quotes, folks.

00:57:50.620 | I don't want the PTs jumping all over.

00:57:52.300 | I don't know what it is, but nutrition and the PTs online

00:57:54.780 | are really, they've got pitchforks in both hands.

00:57:57.220 | - That's a recent evolution, I think, for sure.

00:58:00.820 | And not the nutrition as much,

00:58:01.820 | but the PTs have become a little bit angry these days.

00:58:03.980 | - I see.

00:58:04.820 | Well, I always say with feelings of powerlessness

00:58:06.620 | comes aggression.

00:58:08.340 | Remember that, folks.

00:58:09.520 | So in any case, they're stretching where I'm,

00:58:14.520 | you know, trying to consciously lengthen,

00:58:18.340 | again, in air quotes, the muscle.

00:58:20.160 | I'm not yanking on the limb or bobbing up and down.

00:58:23.300 | Maybe you could define the different types of stretching

00:58:24.940 | for people, maybe give us some rough guidelines

00:58:27.340 | about whether or not to do it cold or warm,

00:58:28.980 | before training, after training, et cetera.

00:58:31.100 | - So yeah, there's obviously,

00:58:32.860 | there's a lot of different types of stretching.

00:58:34.420 | They could get even to, you know, PNF stretching

00:58:36.860 | and things that are a little bit more, you know, niche.

00:58:39.980 | But like in general, the two basic forms of stretching

00:58:42.860 | are active stretching and passive stretching.

00:58:44.900 | And your, you know, your dynamic work

00:58:48.440 | and your passive stretching is done with the goal

00:58:51.780 | of trying to create an increase in the flexibility

00:58:56.740 | of the muscle.

00:58:57.580 | So whether you're actually increasing the length

00:58:59.340 | of that muscle, you know, more so what you're doing

00:59:01.100 | is increasing the resistance or decreasing the resistance

00:59:04.000 | of that muscle to want to stay

00:59:05.220 | at a certain level of flexibility.

00:59:07.900 | So when we can sort of take the brakes off

00:59:10.620 | and allow that muscle to allow us more range of motion,

00:59:14.360 | we're inherently increasing flexibility

00:59:16.260 | without necessarily having to increase

00:59:17.680 | the length of that muscle.

00:59:20.420 | That is usually done at a time far away from your workout

00:59:23.860 | because they have shown where this type of stretching

00:59:26.740 | done prior to an activity.

00:59:28.700 | And it could be like a structured activity,

00:59:31.700 | like lifting, or it could be a little bit less structured,

00:59:35.700 | like competing in a sport in a spontaneous type way.

00:59:39.340 | That there is a period of recalibration that is needed

00:59:44.340 | after doing this because you're disrupting

00:59:46.740 | the length tension relationship of the muscle

00:59:48.740 | that causes you to not necessarily be able to rely on these,

00:59:53.500 | I've talked about before, stored motor engrams in your mind

00:59:56.420 | in terms of this is the pattern

00:59:58.060 | for how I swing a golf club, say, you know?

01:00:00.260 | And now introducing a little bit of flexibility

01:00:03.860 | or added flexibility or range

01:00:05.380 | because of the stretching I did before,

01:00:07.380 | it takes maybe a whole or two or three to match up again.

01:00:12.060 | Oh, this is what he's trying to do,

01:00:13.800 | that golf swing thing that I remembered again.

01:00:15.860 | Like it's not remembering that every component

01:00:18.300 | like I have to bend my right wrist back 10 degrees

01:00:21.180 | and then I have to bend my elbow and I have to break.

01:00:23.300 | Like your body stores these patterns for motor efficiency.

01:00:26.220 | So, and when I have to start matching up that stored pattern

01:00:29.540 | with what's feeling new because of the increased range,

01:00:32.660 | I can impair performance.

01:00:33.820 | And again, it could happen even in a gym workout

01:00:36.220 | where you're talking about your first, second set,

01:00:37.780 | third set, where maybe the repercussions aren't as big

01:00:41.260 | 'cause I'll just do a few extra sets.

01:00:43.120 | But in performance, if you screw up

01:00:44.500 | your first three rounds, you're playing on a PGA tour

01:00:46.220 | and you shoot, you know, you're six over after three,

01:00:48.140 | you're done, you know?

01:00:49.740 | So I think it matters there.

01:00:51.840 | As far as the dynamic, you know, so we relegate that,

01:00:55.660 | as I mentioned, sort of towards the end of the day,

01:00:57.060 | when it's not going to impact performance,

01:00:59.280 | but even maybe have the additional benefit

01:01:01.820 | of creating the feeling of length

01:01:05.540 | or the increase or decrease in resistance to this length

01:01:09.020 | at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend to heal

01:01:12.380 | and heal shorter, never longer, but heal shorter.

01:01:14.900 | So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra length

01:01:17.820 | or decreased resistance to that length,

01:01:20.060 | it's a better time to do it.

01:01:21.220 | So I think it promotes a better recovery.

01:01:25.180 | If I want to-

01:01:26.220 | - Sorry to interrupt.

01:01:27.060 | So stretching later in the day,

01:01:29.220 | because I'm intrigued by this concept of heal shorter.

01:01:33.040 | So part of the healing and recovery process

01:01:34.820 | means a shortening of the muscles.

01:01:35.980 | This is the tensing up in sleep.

01:01:37.900 | Could you elaborate just a bit on that

01:01:39.340 | and then sorry to break your flow, but then to continue?

01:01:41.420 | - Yeah, no, just basically, you know,

01:01:42.540 | what's been shown is that when the repair process,

01:01:46.720 | muscular repair from let's say strength training

01:01:49.360 | during the day,

01:01:50.200 | the repair process usually results in a muscle

01:01:52.440 | that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length.

01:01:55.820 | You know, it's just that it's, you know,

01:01:57.560 | muscles prefer to sort of ratchet their way down

01:02:00.920 | into that contraction and then, you know,

01:02:04.760 | maintain that more comfortable length tension relationship.

01:02:08.360 | So when you're sleeping, it tends to, you know,

01:02:11.140 | err on the side of shorter rather than longer

01:02:13.080 | when ideally we don't really want that.

01:02:15.040 | We want to maintain as much of that length

01:02:17.960 | because with more length,

01:02:19.680 | we actually have more leverage, right?

01:02:21.340 | That muscle has more leverage to contract.

01:02:23.220 | If it was all the way contracted, you know,

01:02:24.960 | you really can't obviously, you know,

01:02:26.040 | generate much force in a muscle

01:02:27.380 | that's already maximally contracted.

01:02:29.600 | So I think we want to do something that we,

01:02:33.060 | whatever we can,

01:02:33.900 | whatever little weapons we have in our arsenal

01:02:35.680 | that could allow us to do this prior to sleep.

01:02:39.540 | And again, it's just making a conscious choice

01:02:42.360 | to do it at a time of the day

01:02:43.360 | that makes a little bit more sense.

01:02:45.000 | Dynamic stretching is really not done for that purpose

01:02:48.760 | of trying to create any type of feeling of act

01:02:53.760 | or increasing the potential length,

01:02:56.380 | as you said, of the muscle,

01:02:57.480 | but more so the readiness of the muscle to perform

01:03:00.060 | and increasing, you know,

01:03:02.140 | exploring the ends of that range of motion

01:03:04.560 | in a more dynamic way so you're not hanging out there

01:03:07.600 | and disrupting that length tension relationship

01:03:09.600 | but just sort of touching the ends of those barriers

01:03:12.820 | so that when you feel movement again,

01:03:15.360 | it feels looser, it feels more ready.

01:03:17.440 | And obviously at the same time, warming up, blood flow,

01:03:20.880 | all the benefits we get from just warming up in general.

01:03:23.600 | So like, you know, that's the series

01:03:25.620 | you've probably seen a bunch of times,

01:03:26.720 | but like, you know, leg swings and, you know,

01:03:30.100 | butt kicks and, you know, lunge, walking lunges

01:03:33.080 | and all types of drills. - Toe touches.

01:03:34.920 | - Toe touches, all those kinds of drills,

01:03:36.840 | those active stretching drills,

01:03:37.980 | or, you know, lunging with rotations of the upper body

01:03:41.000 | to try to get some of the thoracic spine involved too.

01:03:43.200 | Those are the drills that people will do prior to training

01:03:46.100 | that are both excitatory in terms of just the nervous system

01:03:49.400 | but also helpful for just the general warmup of the body

01:03:52.580 | 'cause of the blood flow,

01:03:53.620 | but from a muscle readiness standpoint,

01:03:55.440 | not impairing the performance while at the same time

01:03:59.360 | exploring the increased ranges.

01:04:01.460 | 'Cause as you know, the first toe touch you do

01:04:04.160 | is not as high as the last toe touch you do.

01:04:05.800 | - For me, it doesn't even include the toe.

01:04:07.540 | (laughing)

01:04:08.380 | - Right, the shin touch, the knee touch.

01:04:09.220 | - Toe touch attempt, right. - Right, right.

01:04:10.680 | So like, you know, those are going to improve

01:04:12.760 | with each subsequent rep.

01:04:14.440 | And I think that's what people actually,

01:04:15.920 | like when you can see those actual changes

01:04:19.380 | from rep one to rep seven, you just feel ready.

01:04:22.500 | You feel more alert and ready to go in your workout.

01:04:25.220 | So the dynamic type of stretching,

01:04:27.840 | and I mentioned earlier on, you know,

01:04:29.340 | like what I've had to do

01:04:30.680 | to sort of increase my warmup focus, you know,

01:04:33.220 | I think that's more of what I try to do these days.

01:04:36.060 | I try to be a little bit more alert to the fact that,

01:04:39.120 | you know, my body's not ready.

01:04:40.260 | When I was working with Antonio Brown,

01:04:42.060 | I remember like he would spend 20 minutes,

01:04:44.900 | 30 minutes on all dynamic work.

01:04:47.300 | And I've never seen anybody spend that long

01:04:49.620 | on their dynamic work,

01:04:50.660 | but like he said, he just didn't feel right and ready to go

01:04:55.160 | unless he did a lot of that.

01:04:57.000 | And I mean, you know, his dynamic stretching routine

01:05:00.200 | would be a workout for most everybody, you know,

01:05:02.700 | it's crazy how much he did.

01:05:04.600 | - These pro athletes are amazing.

01:05:06.180 | And you've had the great fortune of working with

01:05:08.960 | and improving their abilities.

01:05:11.200 | But I can only imagine,

01:05:13.940 | 'cause I also imagine he's pretty strong in the gym also.

01:05:16.660 | - I mean, you know, and so it always amazes me

01:05:19.080 | the guys that make it to that level,

01:05:20.460 | no matter what sport they do,

01:05:22.480 | they're so gifted in everything, you know,

01:05:24.340 | like David Wright used to make me laugh all the time

01:05:27.260 | with the Mets because no matter what I ping pong,

01:05:31.680 | you know, like anything he,

01:05:33.000 | because of his hand-eye coordination,

01:05:34.460 | like anything, you know, great at.

01:05:37.100 | Jump rope, I remember he hadn't done a lot of jump rope.

01:05:39.780 | And I think jump rope was one of the best things

01:05:43.180 | you could do from a conditioning standpoint.

01:05:44.900 | It's actually, it's fairly interesting.

01:05:46.420 | It's not just, you know,

01:05:48.260 | it's not too harsh on the joints,

01:05:50.580 | depending on, you know, even though it's a ballistic move.

01:05:52.760 | And he wasn't, I have to admit, you know,

01:05:55.400 | if you listen to this, he's going to want to kill me,

01:05:56.820 | but I was better at him than at jump roping,

01:05:59.420 | one of the only things I could do.

01:06:00.580 | And then I gave him about five days

01:06:02.860 | and he completely blew me out of the water

01:06:04.660 | to the point where I could never keep up with him anymore.

01:06:06.820 | He made it look effortless.

01:06:08.260 | It's like, that's where the athlete in someone comes out.

01:06:11.140 | No matter what they pick up, they're good at it.

01:06:13.340 | And I think that when you see guys like this in the gym,

01:06:15.620 | like their strength levels tend to be pretty damn good

01:06:17.700 | and they're in their abilities, their coordination,

01:06:19.540 | they're everything just tends to sort of be good

01:06:22.000 | at that level, you know, and it sort of amazes me

01:06:24.380 | why those guys can go pick up a golf club, you know,

01:06:26.660 | and go shoot 72, you know,

01:06:28.960 | and having never really played, you know,

01:06:31.060 | they're just naturally good at whatever they do.

01:06:33.960 | - Yeah, I have a couple, I'm smiling

01:06:35.820 | 'cause I have a couple of really close friends

01:06:37.500 | who did a number of years,

01:06:38.820 | some several decades in the SEAL teams.

01:06:40.820 | And I don't know that their skill level at everything

01:06:43.340 | is so high as you're describing for athletes,

01:06:45.560 | but their level of competitiveness is beyond.

01:06:48.500 | I ocean swim with one.

01:06:49.580 | There's no chance that I'm going to, you know,

01:06:51.460 | out swim Pat ever, ever.

01:06:53.500 | He actually goes back and forth sometimes

01:06:55.000 | just to check up on me, which I appreciate.

01:06:57.520 | Thank you, Pat.

01:06:58.940 | I haven't drowned yet, but in addition to that, you know,

01:07:02.180 | we could play horseshoes and it's like this switch

01:07:04.780 | that just flips on and like he's going to murder me.

01:07:07.360 | He's a very nice guy, right?

01:07:08.620 | In general, they tend to be very nice,

01:07:09.820 | but the level of competitiveness is kind of unreal.

01:07:12.500 | - They're trying to beat themselves.

01:07:14.420 | They're not even trying to beat you.

01:07:15.320 | - That's right.

01:07:16.160 | I'm not even in the competition.

01:07:17.320 | - You're not even in the competition.

01:07:18.160 | You're not even there.

01:07:19.000 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:07:19.820 | Thank you.

01:07:20.660 | Now I won't feel so bad or worse.

01:07:22.920 | It's true.

01:07:24.860 | It's a remarkable thing.

01:07:25.680 | I'm glad you mentioned jump roping.

01:07:26.700 | I used to skip rope for warmup for boxing, you know,

01:07:30.220 | and those like three, three minute rounds

01:07:32.340 | or something like that.

01:07:33.860 | But I'm glad you brought it up because skipping rope

01:07:36.960 | is something that obviously has a cardiovascular component.

01:07:40.600 | There's the conditioning component, there's timing,

01:07:42.300 | and it is kind of interesting, right?

01:07:43.860 | You can, it's frustrating when you don't get it,

01:07:45.860 | especially when it whips you on the ear,

01:07:47.100 | if you're using a proper rope.

01:07:48.460 | I'm just curious if you could just give us a quick

01:07:50.800 | skipping rope one-on-one.

01:07:51.840 | Do you like to see people jumping with both feet and toes?

01:07:54.780 | We'll link to a video if there was one and I missed it.

01:07:57.660 | Do you like to see people doing high knees?

01:07:59.140 | Do you like people basically like shuffling?

01:08:01.940 | You want to see people doing double dutch?

01:08:03.200 | What do you want to see people doing over time?

01:08:05.480 | - All of the above, maybe not the double dutch,

01:08:07.220 | but all of the above.

01:08:08.340 | I mean, I think that that's the cool thing about it, right?

01:08:10.560 | Like once we sort of master the skill,

01:08:12.260 | 'cause for all of us, that first jump with the two feet

01:08:15.540 | going together is a challenge.

01:08:17.180 | 'Cause you just got to time that rope,

01:08:18.460 | you got to time your jump.

01:08:19.640 | And then we get bored as we often do as humans,

01:08:22.260 | we get bored with what we can do

01:08:23.520 | and want to take on new challenges.

01:08:24.940 | So then it becomes one leg at a time,

01:08:26.580 | or then it becomes side to side hops, right?

01:08:29.480 | All of those things are beneficial.

01:08:31.900 | I believe neurologically to enhancing the ability

01:08:34.620 | to do the skill as a whole,

01:08:35.920 | but also just because I'm such a believer

01:08:39.500 | in training in all three planes.

01:08:40.980 | So like just doing straight up and down

01:08:43.580 | versus now I can do frontal plane side to side motion.

01:08:46.660 | And then I can even do small little twists

01:08:48.760 | or corkscrews, we call them.

01:08:50.700 | It requires a different,

01:08:51.760 | you would know more about it better than I do,

01:08:53.460 | that it requires different neurological patterns

01:08:56.580 | to be able to coordinate that

01:08:58.000 | because you're changing the orientation

01:08:59.820 | of your body and space.

01:09:00.660 | So it's not just that I'm changing the exercise,

01:09:03.080 | but I'm changing how my body interprets that exercise

01:09:05.980 | because what's happening to my body and space.

01:09:07.900 | So I love whatever people wind up doing,

01:09:12.300 | but I am amazed.

01:09:14.420 | There are people,

01:09:15.540 | I just started following this young woman on Instagram

01:09:17.780 | who is like, I'll give her a plug.

01:09:20.860 | I think it's like Anna Skips or something.

01:09:22.300 | And she is ridiculous.

01:09:24.940 | Like I watch her and I'm like mesmerized

01:09:26.940 | at what she can do with the rope.

01:09:28.620 | It's like, it's an extremely athletic endeavor

01:09:31.940 | when it gets to be at that level

01:09:33.260 | and the speed and the precision

01:09:34.900 | and I think one of the goals

01:09:38.180 | that you want to be able to have

01:09:39.500 | is to where you're feeling

01:09:41.500 | as if you're almost effortlessly dancing without a rope,

01:09:45.260 | like where you're just bouncing off

01:09:46.760 | of the ball of your foot.

01:09:48.000 | And it's an important skill to learn too,

01:09:51.020 | whether you go back to run or even jog, right?

01:09:55.500 | Just like more casual running,

01:09:57.720 | learning how to land is so important.

01:10:00.300 | One of the drills that people should try

01:10:02.660 | is like try to jump on your heels.

01:10:05.260 | So just stand up, pull your toes off the ground, right?

01:10:07.940 | And just jump from your heels and land on your heels.

01:10:10.580 | You'll feel it in your jaw.

01:10:12.140 | You'll literally feel your jaw rattle

01:10:13.740 | when you land on your heels.

01:10:14.860 | There is no shock absorption capabilities

01:10:16.980 | through your heels.

01:10:17.940 | Meantime, a lot of people land on their heels a lot

01:10:21.420 | when they run and your body's not built

01:10:24.440 | to absorb the forces like the ball of your foot could.

01:10:26.980 | It's really built as a spring.

01:10:28.980 | And the foot is, to me, as a physical therapist,

01:10:31.960 | the foot has always been one of the most,

01:10:33.840 | you talk about having bad feet.

01:10:35.080 | I have flat feet.

01:10:36.360 | It looks like I got flippers if I took my shoes off.

01:10:39.000 | Like I'm wearing scuba fins.

01:10:41.440 | There is no adaptability of that foot to the surface.

01:10:46.440 | When it's completely caved and flattened like that,

01:10:50.180 | the job of the foot is to be adaptable.

01:10:53.360 | Well, maybe there is some adaptability

01:10:55.240 | because it's so floppy.

01:10:56.620 | But at the same time, at some point,

01:10:58.100 | that critical juncture when you're gonna then step through

01:11:00.640 | and you need to be able to push off,

01:11:02.520 | the foot has to actually change this in the mid-foot itself

01:11:05.660 | to become a rigid lever, as they call it.

01:11:08.340 | You're going from a mobile adapter to a rigid lever.

01:11:11.580 | That rigid lever literally locks up the mid-tarsal joint

01:11:14.760 | to become solid so that you can push off of it

01:11:18.060 | with leverage.

01:11:18.960 | If you lack that capability,

01:11:20.980 | all those stresses that are supposed to be borne by the foot

01:11:23.660 | go up into the ankle, into the knee, into the hip,

01:11:25.820 | into the low back.

01:11:27.020 | So learning how to land and start to train your body

01:11:32.020 | to experience ground reaction forces the right way

01:11:37.060 | is so critical to all other function

01:11:40.340 | and all their disability up the kinetic chain.

01:11:43.140 | And jumping rope is like one of the best ways

01:11:45.360 | to learn how to do that.

01:11:46.420 | - Great, I own a jump rope.

01:11:48.560 | I love doing it in the morning

01:11:50.380 | while I get sunlight in my eyes.

01:11:51.820 | It's actually a protocol I picked up from Tim Ferriss,

01:11:55.660 | who mentioned, 'cause listeners of my podcast know

01:11:58.420 | I'm like a broken record with get sunlight in your eyes,

01:12:01.140 | even through cloud cover.

01:12:02.180 | It just sets your sleep rhythms and your waking rhythms,

01:12:04.900 | the yada, yada, on and on.

01:12:06.440 | But sometimes they'd be kind of boring for people

01:12:09.300 | and I want to get them off their phone.

01:12:10.480 | So jumping rope is also just a great way to wake up.

01:12:12.740 | So jumping rope can be the cardio workout,

01:12:17.540 | the 15 or 30 minutes.

01:12:19.300 | - Definitely, and there's sort of that hybrid

01:12:21.180 | that we were talking about before of like,

01:12:23.180 | you're not necessarily dropping down to the ground

01:12:25.660 | and doing burpees,

01:12:26.500 | but I just look at it as a more athletic endeavor

01:12:29.060 | because of the coordination involved

01:12:30.900 | than just simply walking or jogging.

01:12:33.140 | - Yeah, and it's not much of a equipment requirement,

01:12:36.740 | very minimal cost.

01:12:38.060 | You could even use a rope or something if you, although--

01:12:41.380 | - We even instruct people that you use no rope

01:12:43.740 | and just pretend and just move the arms, right?

01:12:46.660 | - Truly zero cost.

01:12:47.580 | - You're never going to hit the rope, which is good,

01:12:49.140 | but at the same time,

01:12:50.100 | so you're never going to know if you're doing it wrong,

01:12:51.640 | but at least you can move through and get the same benefits

01:12:54.540 | through the feet.

01:12:55.380 | - I love it, I love it.

01:12:57.400 | I told myself before sitting down with you today

01:13:00.000 | that I wasn't going to focus on specific exercises

01:13:02.580 | because there's such a wealth of incredible content

01:13:05.380 | that you put out there that people could just put

01:13:06.980 | into YouTube or elsewhere and arrive at the proper way

01:13:10.360 | to do a chin or a dip or for whatever purpose.

01:13:13.440 | But there's one exercise in one particular motion

01:13:16.900 | that I'd like to discuss for a moment

01:13:19.380 | because I believe that learning about this cautionary note

01:13:23.820 | from you is one of the reasons

01:13:26.840 | that I've maintained steady training for 30 years

01:13:29.980 | with no major injury, knock on wood,

01:13:33.060 | and that's the upright row.

01:13:34.640 | One thing that, whether or not people weight train or not--

01:13:39.060 | - We censor this podcast?

01:13:40.360 | Are we censoring to be beeped this out or no?

01:13:42.100 | - Oh, do you get beef about this?

01:13:44.460 | - You know what, we always get beef

01:13:48.320 | in any social media platform we're ever put out,

01:13:50.720 | but no, I get some from it,

01:13:52.840 | but I'm fully prepared to defend myself.

01:13:55.740 | - But here's the reason for asking about this.

01:13:58.420 | I never really cared much for upright rows.

01:14:00.780 | It's not an exercise I tend to do,

01:14:02.300 | but one thing that's apparent in all my colleagues

01:14:05.320 | and every child I see and every adult I see

01:14:07.640 | is that almost everybody is in inward rotation now.

01:14:11.580 | So folks, I think I learned this from you all.

01:14:14.060 | So if you stand up straight

01:14:15.080 | and then you just point your thumbs out like a thumbs up,

01:14:18.140 | but you're just pointing, your hands are down,

01:14:19.540 | you're pointing your thumbs straight out,

01:14:21.300 | ideally they would go straight out.

01:14:23.080 | Most people, the thumbs are gonna be pointing

01:14:24.460 | toward one another,

01:14:25.300 | because most people are starting to look somewhere

01:14:26.880 | between a non-human primate and a melted candle.

01:14:31.880 | Bent at the hips, et cetera, from too much sitting.

01:14:38.640 | We're all sitting, we're in inward rotation,

01:14:40.880 | but I learned from you that the upright row compromises

01:14:44.940 | some important aspects of our shoulder mechanics

01:14:48.140 | and can be actually sort of a dangerous movement

01:14:50.260 | in some ways.

01:14:51.100 | I'm sure there's a safe way for people to do it,

01:14:53.000 | but so I've always made it a point now

01:14:55.740 | on the basis of this advice to A, not do upright rows,

01:14:59.740 | but I wasn't doing them before,

01:15:00.660 | but to really strive for external rotation

01:15:04.260 | on things like bench dips,

01:15:05.700 | on a number of different things.

01:15:07.320 | Whenever I can, I try and go into external rotation

01:15:09.780 | and provide, without looking like an idiot

01:15:11.620 | walking around with my palms facing outward.

01:15:13.740 | Please tell us about internal, external rotation.

01:15:16.240 | The upright row is one aspect of that,

01:15:20.060 | but why this is so important, not just for weight training,

01:15:23.700 | but as in terms of posture and mechanics

01:15:26.380 | and not looking like a melted candle

01:15:29.700 | or partially melted candle.

01:15:31.660 | - I actually love it.

01:15:32.500 | I am happy to talk about it

01:15:34.740 | 'cause I love the shoulder as a joint.

01:15:37.340 | I think PTs tend to fall in love with certain areas

01:15:39.880 | and the shoulder is one of the cool areas for me.

01:15:41.780 | It's like the foot is, but the shoulder has the most mobility

01:15:45.540 | in the body of any joint,

01:15:47.860 | but it's also got the least stability, right?

01:15:49.500 | There's always that trade off of mobility and stability.

01:15:52.100 | So your stability comes from certain muscle groups

01:15:57.100 | and one of the ones that the only muscle group

01:15:59.920 | that actually externally rotates the shoulder

01:16:01.980 | is going to be the rotator cuff, okay?

01:16:03.660 | And unless you were devoted to training

01:16:06.160 | through external rotation

01:16:07.420 | and exercises that are going to externally rotate

01:16:10.980 | the shoulder, you're not training that function.

01:16:13.660 | And it's so easy for us in everyday life,

01:16:17.020 | especially those that aren't training

01:16:18.600 | to not ever really undergo any of those stresses

01:16:21.460 | that could be beneficial to counteracting

01:16:23.560 | what happens freely and naturally,

01:16:25.820 | which is internal rotation.

01:16:27.100 | So when you think about the imbalance created just by nature

01:16:30.040 | and how we live our lives,

01:16:31.460 | internal rotation far, far, far outweighs external rotation.

01:16:35.820 | So you need to address it.

01:16:37.620 | And the reason why you need to address it

01:16:39.020 | is because you need to normalize those biomechanics

01:16:41.700 | to the shoulder if you want their long-term health.

01:16:43.740 | And one of the functions of the shoulder

01:16:45.460 | is to raise our arm up over our head.

01:16:47.380 | And if we do that from an internally rotated position,

01:16:50.900 | we're going to have a higher likelihood

01:16:53.620 | of creating stress inside that joint.

01:16:55.780 | Funny thing is, I talked about before my PT brethren

01:16:58.580 | can be somewhat angry these days.

01:17:01.660 | I don't know what happened, but fairly angry.

01:17:03.620 | You know, they wanna discredit the existence

01:17:06.760 | of something like a shoulder impingement,

01:17:09.040 | which I don't know how, I mean, certain studies,

01:17:12.840 | look at both, we all read studies

01:17:14.620 | and studies will say one thing one day

01:17:17.000 | and potentially conflict entirely in a different direction.

01:17:19.760 | Some studies will point to the non-existence

01:17:21.560 | of a shoulder impingement.

01:17:24.080 | Meanwhile, we have thankfully digital motion X-rays

01:17:28.640 | that will literally show the impingement occur

01:17:31.520 | in real time, in real function.

01:17:33.680 | And that's one of the limitations,

01:17:34.720 | I'm off on a tangent here,

01:17:35.600 | but like those types of X-rays

01:17:37.160 | or that type of fluoroscopy that we have nowadays,

01:17:39.360 | like gives us such insight that we never had before,

01:17:41.840 | 'cause we're taking static X-rays

01:17:43.320 | of someone laying down on a table.

01:17:44.880 | You know, when I wanna see what happens

01:17:46.160 | when he actually raised my arm up over my head in function,

01:17:48.860 | and the tools now exist to do that.

01:17:51.340 | We see the problems occurring

01:17:53.520 | because in order to get normal mechanics

01:17:56.840 | and free up the joint maximally inside,

01:17:59.260 | you need to externally rotate as you raise the arm up.

01:18:02.480 | So if your muscles aren't firing

01:18:04.560 | and they're not necessarily as strong

01:18:07.800 | as the internal rotation bias that pulls them in,

01:18:10.800 | you're asking for trouble every time you do that.

01:18:12.700 | Well, this exercise is literally putting you

01:18:16.560 | in elevation and internal rotation.

01:18:18.440 | And if you were to walk into a PT office

01:18:20.600 | and someone said, I think he's got impingement,

01:18:22.600 | will you diagnose him?

01:18:23.520 | There's a test called a Hawkins Kennedy test.

01:18:25.440 | And I would put you in the position,

01:18:27.240 | I know we're not visible at this point through the podcast,

01:18:29.720 | but I'll put you in this position here

01:18:31.640 | where I have your arm elevated

01:18:33.400 | and your hand pretty much under your chin,

01:18:35.880 | pushing downward on that

01:18:37.160 | to create that internal shoulder rotation.

01:18:38.960 | Pretty much the exact position that we're in

01:18:40.760 | when we're holding a bar in an upright row.

01:18:43.600 | Some will say, well, just don't go so high,

01:18:45.420 | go only up to the level of the chest,

01:18:46.940 | but you're still in this internally rotated position.

01:18:50.160 | The thing that I think frustrates me the most

01:18:51.880 | about the exercise is that I have an alternative.

01:18:55.280 | And the alternative does the same thing

01:18:56.820 | in terms of helping the muscles grow

01:18:58.880 | by simply fixing the biomechanics of the exercise,

01:19:01.240 | but just allowing the hands to go higher than the elbows.

01:19:03.740 | So instead of the elbows being higher than the hand,

01:19:06.080 | which drives you into internal rotation,

01:19:08.080 | if the elbow is lower than the hand,

01:19:10.160 | the hand being higher here, I'm in external rotation.

01:19:13.280 | And I could do something called a high pull

01:19:15.580 | and still get the same abduction of the arm

01:19:18.280 | and still get the same benefits of the shoulders,

01:19:20.420 | the delts and the traps

01:19:21.680 | without having to undergo any of the stresses

01:19:23.680 | that would come from the somewhat awkward movement

01:19:26.320 | of an upright row.

01:19:27.680 | - And for those listening,

01:19:29.040 | we'll put a link to a short clip of what this looks like,

01:19:31.480 | but basically what Jeff is doing,

01:19:33.020 | and tell me if I'm describing this

01:19:34.500 | incorrectly or correctly, Jeff,

01:19:35.720 | is taking your two thumbs and pointing behind you.

01:19:38.660 | So elbows up kind of near the chin

01:19:41.380 | and pointing behind you, like, go ahead it that way.

01:19:43.300 | Like somebody directing the airplane,

01:19:44.720 | like come back, come back, come back.

01:19:46.800 | I forget what they call that.

01:19:47.760 | I think it's called semaphorin,

01:19:49.560 | is the action of like where they direct the planes

01:19:52.000 | or something, the flags or whatever.

01:19:53.580 | Someone will of course tell me I'm wrong about that too,

01:19:55.840 | which is why I say these things,

01:19:57.340 | because I like being told what the correct answer is.

01:20:00.820 | In any case, so this replaces the upright row

01:20:04.640 | and probably does a number of other important things as well.

01:20:07.180 | - Yeah, well, again, listen,

01:20:09.380 | without naming names or programs or anything like that,

01:20:11.500 | when I got involved in Athlean-X,

01:20:16.180 | when I first started my online presence,

01:20:20.100 | there was a very, very, very popular program

01:20:23.300 | that was out there that I just for fun,

01:20:25.320 | I wanted to, as a PT, this is the nerdy things we do,

01:20:28.280 | but I wanted to evaluate the workout structure.

01:20:32.740 | And I went and I looked at every rep

01:20:34.920 | over the course of a week.

01:20:36.360 | And there were something like 890 repetitions

01:20:39.720 | or something done.

01:20:40.760 | And zero of them were dedicated

01:20:43.640 | to external rotation of the shoulder.

01:20:45.240 | So if you think about it,

01:20:46.080 | I mean, yeah, it was a very popular program

01:20:47.760 | that was done by a lot of people.

01:20:48.980 | There was no focus at all,

01:20:51.240 | no dedicated focus towards creating a balance to an action

01:20:56.240 | that is so predominant.

01:20:57.720 | And remember, it's not just because we sit with that posture,

01:21:01.160 | but the fact that our chest can internally rotate,

01:21:04.980 | our lats can internally rotate.

01:21:06.760 | There's like muscle, other big muscles that participate

01:21:09.360 | in things that we do every day

01:21:10.960 | that will further internally rotate the shoulder.

01:21:13.680 | The only weapons we have for external rotation

01:21:16.740 | are those little rotator cuff muscles,

01:21:18.720 | and three of them actually, three of the four.

01:21:21.100 | And the job is to sort of actively

01:21:23.680 | and consciously train them

01:21:25.280 | through really the boring exercises, right?

01:21:27.180 | Like you've seen them with the band,

01:21:28.560 | you anchor a band to a pole,

01:21:30.960 | you stand with the band in the opposite hand.

01:21:33.140 | So if it's anchored to the pole on my left side,

01:21:35.100 | I've got the band on my right side,

01:21:36.640 | and you see people where they kind of rotate their hand

01:21:38.680 | towards the back.

01:21:39.640 | Again, kind of what you were saying,

01:21:40.860 | but at a lower elevation,

01:21:42.720 | taking the back of my hand

01:21:43.840 | and trying to point it to somebody behind me.

01:21:46.800 | Well, that is one of the ways to train the muscle.

01:21:51.080 | It's just a one function of the shoulder,

01:21:53.000 | external rotation of the shoulder,

01:21:54.600 | and you need to do it.

01:21:56.480 | And again, it's not that if somebody

01:21:59.440 | was doing more external rotation work,

01:22:01.140 | could they absorb the upright row better?

01:22:04.220 | Probably, because as they elevated the arm,

01:22:07.000 | they probably have a little bit more of a contribution

01:22:10.800 | from the rotator cuff to one of the functions

01:22:13.780 | is to centralize the head of the humerus

01:22:15.860 | inside of the glenoid, the capsule.

01:22:18.640 | So as it rises up,

01:22:20.960 | it stays central as opposed to migrating up

01:22:24.280 | because the deltoid likes to pull up.

01:22:26.520 | So if the rotator cuff has some ability

01:22:29.440 | to counteract the upward pull of the delt,

01:22:32.180 | then it can maintain a more healthy relationship

01:22:34.640 | with overhead movement.

01:22:35.680 | So just realizing that functions only gain

01:22:38.580 | through doing these exercises,

01:22:40.080 | we would probably dedicate more time there,

01:22:43.800 | but the upright row might be better absorbed by that person

01:22:46.800 | because they have a little bit more strength.

01:22:48.400 | But again, why?

01:22:50.040 | Because if you have an exercise that does the same thing

01:22:52.800 | for what you're trying to do muscularly

01:22:54.600 | to build the muscles that it affects,

01:22:56.720 | why wouldn't you just do it where you can still see,

01:22:59.660 | actually pick up more repetitions of external rotation?

01:23:02.280 | You know, so you're getting none of the harm,

01:23:04.320 | all of the benefits.

01:23:05.400 | I see zero reason to ever do the upright row.

01:23:08.520 | And people will argue, this is the way they argue that,

01:23:11.080 | I've done this for 30 years and I've never hurt myself.

01:23:13.920 | And I always say, yeah, yeah.

01:23:16.920 | Like, hey listen, the goal is to not hurt yourself ever.

01:23:20.960 | So even if you, it's sort of like, you know,

01:23:23.600 | the championship game, you know,

01:23:25.720 | you might play the game of your life,

01:23:27.300 | but if you lose, you lost.

01:23:28.640 | And when you get into the end of the record books,

01:23:30.760 | you're still lost.

01:23:31.700 | So even if you had the game of your life, you lost.

01:23:34.180 | I don't care if you do it for 30 years, no pain,

01:23:36.040 | you're still doing it and there's no pain.

01:23:37.940 | I'm giving you an option that's going to give you

01:23:40.120 | the same results in the exercise that you're seeking.

01:23:42.720 | That's why you're doing the exercise

01:23:44.420 | without the possibility of having the, you know,

01:23:47.020 | the bad outcome come from it.

01:23:48.740 | So, you know, I get a little bit, you know,

01:23:50.860 | defensive of the move, but I feel like it's like,

01:23:53.300 | why would you do that, you know?

01:23:54.580 | - No, it makes sense.

01:23:55.580 | Being able to train for a long period of time

01:23:58.260 | and feel good, you know, I'm proud to say, you know,

01:24:01.260 | and I don't have the kind of genetics where like,

01:24:02.900 | we don't have a lot of impressive athletes

01:24:04.940 | in our family tree or anything.

01:24:06.220 | There are, you know, some fit individuals,

01:24:07.900 | some less fit individuals, but I really believe

01:24:09.940 | it's about putting in the work consistently over time.

01:24:12.000 | And the more often you can wake up not in pain, the better.

01:24:16.460 | And so, you know, I think that being in external rotation

01:24:21.020 | as often as possible is good.

01:24:22.140 | This is actually a good friend who's a yoga teacher told me,

01:24:25.560 | this is also a problem with the yogis, you know,

01:24:27.640 | all the downward dog stuff.

01:24:28.840 | For those listening, you can think of inward rotation

01:24:31.640 | as like thumbs down, just like thumbs down.

01:24:34.360 | Inward rotation isn't bad, but less thumbs down,

01:24:36.820 | more thumbs up is external rotation.

01:24:38.480 | So for those just listening, maybe that gives a visual.

01:24:41.440 | The more exercise you can do in external rotation,

01:24:44.240 | the better it seems on average.

01:24:46.400 | I'd love to chat with you just a little bit more

01:24:50.260 | about biomechanics.

01:24:52.520 | And this is a personal thing that, again,

01:24:56.720 | your content really helped solve for me.

01:24:59.500 | One is, I thought I had lower back pain.

01:25:01.980 | Thought I had sciatica.

01:25:03.460 | So badly that on a few trips, I worked trips years ago

01:25:07.620 | when I was doing a lot more international travel.

01:25:09.820 | I mean, it was hard to stand up sometimes.

01:25:11.560 | I mean, like excruciating pain.

01:25:13.040 | I didn't want to take medication.

01:25:14.280 | I didn't want to do back surgery.

01:25:16.720 | In the end, it turns out it wasn't a back injury at all.

01:25:19.700 | And one of the things that helped fix it was this,

01:25:23.680 | just learning about this thing called the medial glute.

01:25:26.280 | And you had a video that said fixed back pain,

01:25:29.480 | and then you quite accurately say that some back pain

01:25:32.340 | isn't really about the back at all.

01:25:34.200 | And it had me do an exercise or allowed me to try

01:25:38.480 | an exercise where I lay on my side

01:25:40.680 | and essentially pointing my toe down, top toe down,

01:25:45.000 | almost like pointing a toe down,

01:25:46.440 | and then would slowly lift the leg up

01:25:49.040 | while pointing the toe down.

01:25:50.940 | Maybe I got it incorrect here.

01:25:52.600 | And then holding that, and there's a muscle

01:25:54.680 | that sort of sits at the top of the glute.

01:25:56.200 | It kind of peeks out every once in a while.

01:25:57.960 | You can feel it there with your thumb,

01:25:59.560 | which is I think that you had pushed back on it a bit,

01:26:02.860 | creating that mind muscle link again.

01:26:04.980 | And there with proprioception,

01:26:06.600 | the actual feeling of a muscle literally with a limb,

01:26:10.680 | we know, based on the neural circuits for movement,

01:26:14.700 | that that enhances the contractile ability of a muscle.

01:26:17.580 | So like if you touch your bicep,

01:26:19.200 | you literally can contract it more strongly.

01:26:21.460 | And this makes total sense

01:26:22.620 | based on neuromuscular physiology.

01:26:26.740 | So it had me do that repeatedly.

01:26:28.240 | And I started doing that in my hotel room,

01:26:30.640 | and the pain started to disappear.

01:26:32.300 | And then it came back again in the afternoon.

01:26:33.840 | So I did it again in the afternoon.

01:26:35.360 | So this is something I did for three or four days,

01:26:37.600 | and lo and behold, my back pain's gone.

01:26:40.440 | I handed this off to my father

01:26:42.280 | because he, like me, has a slightly lower right shoulder.

01:26:44.980 | I think our gait is probably thrown off by this.

01:26:47.320 | It's probably a genetic thing.

01:26:48.280 | Who knows?

01:26:49.120 | He handed off to somebody.

01:26:52.080 | It turns out that we don't suffer from back pain.

01:26:54.800 | And in fact, now I don't suffer from remaining pain

01:26:56.300 | because I was doing this exercise,

01:26:58.060 | which I think is helping my medial glute.

01:27:00.960 | Two reasons why I raised this.

01:27:02.120 | One, I know a lot of guys who have right side sciatica

01:27:05.600 | 'cause people keep the wallet there is one idea,

01:27:08.320 | or left side sciatica.

01:27:09.700 | There are a lot of people, male and female,

01:27:12.180 | who think they have back pain

01:27:13.120 | when they don't actually have back pain.

01:27:14.560 | And the other thing is that,

01:27:16.120 | is about a general question about biomechanics

01:27:18.340 | or statement about biomechanics.

01:27:19.760 | I had of a feeling that a lot of what people think

01:27:22.740 | is back pain or knee pain or neck pain

01:27:24.800 | or headache or shoulder pain

01:27:26.640 | is actually the consequence of something that's happening

01:27:31.080 | above or below that site of pain.

01:27:33.720 | And this is a whole landscape of stuff

01:27:36.840 | related to PT and recovery and pain management.

01:27:40.400 | But maybe you just educate us a bit on this

01:27:43.260 | and why this works.

01:27:44.640 | What is the medial glute?

01:27:45.980 | Why did it make my so-called back pain disappear?

01:27:48.680 | And how should people think about pain?

01:27:51.040 | And I'd like to use this as a segue

01:27:52.200 | to get into a little bit deeper discussion

01:27:54.040 | about pain and recovery.

01:27:55.080 | - Sure.

01:27:55.920 | So this is definitely like a big cornucopia PT stuff here,

01:28:00.560 | but like, and this is what I love.

01:28:02.060 | So first of all, that video,

01:28:04.500 | that is, it's my proudest video that I have.

01:28:07.440 | And the reason being is that I,

01:28:09.120 | it's helped so many people.

01:28:10.620 | Like we get comments on that video every day.

01:28:14.360 | I don't even know how many of you

01:28:15.200 | just got now 30 some odd million or it's,

01:28:17.120 | there's a lot of-

01:28:17.960 | - We will link to it.

01:28:18.800 | - Yeah, there's a lot of views.

01:28:19.880 | And quite honestly,

01:28:22.760 | it was a little bit of an afterthought video

01:28:24.880 | in terms of its origin.

01:28:27.560 | I think that that day, maybe Jesse was having some problems

01:28:31.000 | or something like that, a little bit of low back pain.

01:28:32.600 | And I showed him and it helped right away.

01:28:34.980 | I was like, well, we can make a video on it.

01:28:36.880 | 'Cause this will help people, not everybody.

01:28:39.160 | If you have a real disc problem, it's not going to help

01:28:41.980 | because you're not changing the structural problem

01:28:44.780 | that's there.

01:28:45.920 | But as you said, a lot of people don't.

01:28:48.280 | And even disc issues, a lot of them are non-operative.

01:28:51.640 | So you'd want to try these things first.

01:28:54.220 | As far as what you sort of experienced,

01:28:57.480 | sometimes as that glute medius really tightens down

01:28:59.800 | and that's again from poor biomechanics

01:29:02.480 | up and down the kinetic chain,

01:29:03.960 | it can actually press on the sciatic nerve

01:29:06.480 | and give you what they call a pseudo sciatica.

01:29:09.040 | Where it's not like you're making it up.

01:29:12.680 | It's not like you're not feeling that pain

01:29:14.240 | over that same sciatic distribution,

01:29:16.380 | but it's not caused from a disc.

01:29:18.200 | It's not caused from something mechanical there.

01:29:20.680 | It's caused by the fact that this glute medius

01:29:23.640 | has posturally become a problem for you

01:29:26.700 | or weak because you don't train it

01:29:29.040 | and you need to address it.

01:29:30.800 | So not unlike any other muscle in the body,

01:29:34.120 | there are common trigger points and common areas

01:29:37.180 | where the muscle will become tightened

01:29:39.660 | or painful or spasm.

01:29:41.760 | And you can basically apply pressure to these areas

01:29:46.760 | to and then sort of thread that muscle through the pressure

01:29:50.520 | by pushing down through there

01:29:51.860 | and then contracting the muscle,

01:29:53.460 | which is why you go through that action of,

01:29:56.560 | I think we call it a toe stabber,

01:29:58.040 | but like stabbing down and lifting up

01:30:00.160 | and stabbing down and lifting up,

01:30:01.440 | taking that glute medius through its function

01:30:04.040 | so that it's basically kind of working underneath

01:30:07.040 | the downward pressure of the finger.

01:30:08.880 | And that tends to help you to almost knead out

01:30:13.480 | what might be that trigger point.

01:30:15.640 | And that's why people can see immediate relief there

01:30:18.060 | because once the trigger point lets go,

01:30:20.740 | it feels like, and that's what the comments are

01:30:23.300 | in that video, like my God, I literally, I couldn't walk.

01:30:25.980 | I've been on my hotel floor.

01:30:27.360 | I did this and I'm fixed.

01:30:29.280 | And meanwhile, then it could come back

01:30:31.540 | because your body is like, well,

01:30:32.760 | I like being more like this.

01:30:34.120 | This is how I've been ingrained to be.

01:30:37.720 | So it might come back,

01:30:38.560 | but then when you do another round of it

01:30:40.600 | and another round of it,

01:30:41.440 | and then finally it starts to say, all right,

01:30:42.660 | I'm not gonna do that anymore.

01:30:43.500 | It kind of eases up and you can relieve yourself

01:30:45.320 | of those trigger points.

01:30:47.200 | You could do that up and down the back.

01:30:49.540 | There's other people that get that

01:30:50.380 | and that sort of inside their shoulder blade,

01:30:53.100 | that same type of cramping in another area.

01:30:56.920 | But once that takes place,

01:31:00.100 | well, then the job that I think people have

01:31:02.120 | is like become educated that the glute medius

01:31:04.900 | is different than the glute maximus.

01:31:06.720 | Their functions are different.

01:31:08.640 | You have to work on not just extending the hip,

01:31:12.260 | but also abduction of the hip,

01:31:14.000 | external rotation of the hip.

01:31:15.360 | Same thing as in the shoulder.

01:31:17.640 | And this actually segues nicely

01:31:18.960 | into the whole concept you were talking about.

01:31:21.280 | The body is like a mirror image.

01:31:22.880 | The hip is like the shoulder, right?

01:31:24.460 | The ankle is the wrist.

01:31:26.100 | The foot is the hand.

01:31:27.240 | Like the knee is the elbow.

01:31:29.500 | They're two hinge joints.

01:31:30.560 | They function that way.

01:31:31.540 | Well, with the shoulder,

01:31:32.900 | you've got that mobility that comes from

01:31:35.640 | having all that freedom of motion,

01:31:37.160 | but the stability is lacking.

01:31:38.740 | Well, the same thing with the hip.

01:31:39.920 | Like you've got mobility,

01:31:41.520 | but if you don't fully stabilize it

01:31:43.500 | by training all of the muscles of the hip,

01:31:45.680 | and if you don't strengthen

01:31:46.840 | the external rotation of the hip,

01:31:49.160 | then you're gonna have issues.

01:31:52.380 | It's not biomechanically gonna work the same way.

01:31:55.100 | If you think of the body as a series of bands

01:31:59.220 | pulling in different directions

01:32:00.220 | at different levels of tension,

01:32:02.600 | you're being pulled into one direction or the other

01:32:05.280 | just by the balance of tension

01:32:06.960 | from one weak area to one dominantly tight area.

01:32:11.380 | And you need to make sure

01:32:12.440 | that you can sort of balance this out

01:32:14.400 | in order to eliminate some of the adaptations

01:32:16.860 | and compensations that happen.

01:32:19.080 | So what I say when we look at sort of the body as a whole,

01:32:25.800 | most often, wherever you're feeling the pain

01:32:27.980 | is absolutely not to blame.

01:32:30.760 | There's not to blame.

01:32:31.760 | It is somewhere above or below as you hinted at.

01:32:34.420 | You're talking about the knee is my favorite example of it.

01:32:38.100 | Whenever you have knee pain, patellar tendonitis,

01:32:41.200 | which I have forever.

01:32:43.080 | I've had bad, bad cases of patellar tendonitis

01:32:45.280 | where squatting is very difficult for me.

01:32:48.560 | It's not the knee.

01:32:49.560 | The knee is literally a hinge joint that,

01:32:52.600 | there's a minor rotation capabilities in the knee,

01:32:54.700 | but it's a hinge joint.

01:32:56.440 | And it's being impacted by the hip and the ankle

01:33:00.240 | and in the foot.

01:33:01.360 | As I said before, how critical the foot is.

01:33:03.820 | If you thought of the knee being the middle of a train track

01:33:08.460 | where the femur down your thigh and your shin

01:33:11.440 | down below your knee where the train track,

01:33:13.720 | what would happen if the foot collapses at the bottom?

01:33:16.820 | All of a sudden that train track on the bottom

01:33:19.220 | gets torqued just a little bit.

01:33:21.360 | Well, who's going to feel that the most?

01:33:23.660 | The area where it's torquing, which is at the knee.

01:33:25.800 | So the stresses are going to be felt there.

01:33:27.260 | Meanwhile, the problem is the foot

01:33:28.760 | or the problem is the ankle.

01:33:30.440 | People that are chronic ankle sprainers

01:33:32.820 | are almost always going to wind up having back pain

01:33:35.460 | because the ankle sprain causes weakness

01:33:37.840 | and maladaptations in the ankle

01:33:39.720 | that then gets connected through the chain.

01:33:42.120 | Because now once I distort the ankle and the shin,

01:33:45.060 | now the knee is trying to maintain

01:33:47.280 | its ability to hinge smoothly.

01:33:49.560 | So it torques on the femur to do that.

01:33:52.080 | Well, the femur is now inside the hip joint

01:33:53.940 | pulling on the pelvis and the pelvis is out of whack.

01:33:56.500 | So it really is fascinating.

01:33:58.660 | It's one of my favorite things about how the body works

01:34:01.500 | is how interconnected it is

01:34:04.520 | and how one little thing somewhere

01:34:06.600 | causes repercussion somewhere else.

01:34:09.560 | The easiest way to find out what your problem is

01:34:12.140 | is to say, "Okay, I know where my symptom is

01:34:14.040 | "but I got to find someone who can help me

01:34:16.000 | "find the source somewhere else."

01:34:17.920 | Because it is going to be usually either above or below.

01:34:20.460 | Mostly usually below

01:34:21.640 | 'cause it usually translates up the kinetic chain.

01:34:23.980 | But usually it's going to be below where the real source is.

01:34:26.860 | So people with low back pain usually have hip issues,

01:34:30.000 | weaknesses, tightnesses, flexibility issues.

01:34:32.840 | It's almost always below.

01:34:34.260 | When you get into really high performance athletics though,

01:34:38.820 | it almost works the other way.

01:34:40.180 | Like where we have pitchers who can't,

01:34:43.240 | I mean, I'm always fascinated by guys

01:34:44.860 | that have Tommy John issues in their elbow pitchers.

01:34:49.780 | If you can't externally rotate the shoulder

01:34:53.020 | that we talked about again,

01:34:54.080 | the ability to get your shoulder back into external rotation,

01:34:57.500 | well, your arm has to get to a certain position

01:35:01.140 | for release of the baseball.

01:35:02.980 | And if it can't get there

01:35:04.420 | 'cause you can't externally rotate the shoulder to get there

01:35:06.920 | then the elbow has to sort of torque more

01:35:09.880 | in order to allow the arm to get back further.

01:35:12.860 | And it will try to take some of that motion

01:35:15.140 | from a joint that's not really,

01:35:16.500 | again, the hinge joint, really capable of doing that.

01:35:19.920 | So it starts to stress that medial elbow ligament

01:35:22.240 | to get a little bit further back

01:35:23.740 | because the shoulder's not working.

01:35:25.360 | And that just ultimately places strain on the elbow.

01:35:27.820 | So when you see a guy that has pain that floats around,

01:35:32.300 | a pitcher that floats around their arm,

01:35:34.300 | all that is is sort of this balance of compensation.

01:35:36.880 | Once his elbow starts hurting,

01:35:38.820 | then he can't get the range from the elbow.

01:35:41.920 | So he tries to dig a little bit further back

01:35:44.120 | into external rotation

01:35:45.220 | and then the rotator cuff gets inflamed.

01:35:46.820 | And then he feels that's inflamed.

01:35:48.380 | So by the way, during that time period,

01:35:50.100 | it takes some of the strain off the elbow

01:35:51.260 | so the elbow feels better.

01:35:52.540 | Then he decides, okay, now I got the extra rotation

01:35:55.120 | but I'm getting too much of that.

01:35:56.380 | So now I start straining the elbow again

01:35:58.300 | and it keeps going through this cycle.

01:35:59.900 | So your body is very smart

01:36:03.280 | and it's gonna compensate every single time.

01:36:05.740 | It's gonna find the compensation

01:36:07.000 | but there's no guarantee that that compensation

01:36:08.940 | doesn't leave you with a whole host of other issues.

01:36:11.420 | - Yeah, it's fascinating.

01:36:13.400 | In another lifetime, I would have gone and been a PT,

01:36:15.720 | although it sounds like the community among PTs online--

01:36:18.440 | - I don't know what, listen, we're good people

01:36:20.500 | but it's like--

01:36:21.340 | - Yeah, scientists and neuroscientists

01:36:22.720 | can get into pretty intense battles.

01:36:25.200 | Coming from the academic community,

01:36:26.960 | the etiquette is so different online

01:36:28.700 | because I would say, I think in person,

01:36:30.440 | people would probably behave a bit differently.

01:36:32.140 | - They shake your hand and say hello.

01:36:33.120 | - Yeah, they shake your hand and say hello.

01:36:34.520 | And there's also, look, I'll just be very direct about this.

01:36:39.040 | There are a lot of people online

01:36:40.580 | for whom their only content is pointing out

01:36:43.240 | the misunderstandings or alleged flaws of other people.

01:36:47.560 | Where it's like the bulk of their identity,

01:36:49.580 | which to me is sort of a sad existence

01:36:51.580 | but there's always more to gain

01:36:53.840 | by thinking about what's possible

01:36:55.000 | and what's new and what's good

01:36:56.400 | but to each their own demise or win.

01:37:00.360 | - I mean, questioning what's out there,

01:37:02.520 | it's healthy, it's normal, it's great,

01:37:04.400 | it's actually a sparse conversation.

01:37:06.560 | But as you said, some people's existence

01:37:08.080 | is solely to find things to nag about

01:37:11.800 | and not actually with the goal being to advance anything

01:37:14.580 | but rather just to, yeah.

01:37:16.600 | - Yeah, in the world of science,

01:37:18.400 | being skeptical but not cynical is encouraged.

01:37:22.300 | But I would say that the longer

01:37:24.600 | that somebody is in a career path,

01:37:26.220 | it's certainly in science or medicine

01:37:27.820 | and they realize how hard it is to do various studies.

01:37:31.920 | Once they publish a few studies,

01:37:33.140 | generally they sort of get a better understanding

01:37:36.080 | of how the various things are done.

01:37:38.040 | - In any case, along the lines of pain and pain relief

01:37:43.040 | and misunderstandings about the origins of pain in the body,

01:37:47.240 | one of the great tools that I picked up from your content,

01:37:50.920 | which is benefit, I know a huge number of people is,

01:37:54.320 | I think I used to hold weights

01:37:56.000 | sometimes in the tips of my fingers

01:37:57.880 | as opposed to in the meat of the palm of my hands

01:38:00.360 | and I had elbow pain and I always thought that,

01:38:02.680 | I felt it most on tricep exercises and pushing exercises

01:38:05.600 | and I thought I was doing those exercises wrong.

01:38:07.880 | Turns out, toward the end of my pull-ups or my bicep work,

01:38:11.200 | I was letting the weight or the bar drift

01:38:12.960 | into my fingertips and the mere shift

01:38:16.680 | to making sure that my knuckles were well over the bar

01:38:19.280 | or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms

01:38:22.560 | has completely ameliorated that

01:38:24.520 | for reasons that you point out

01:38:26.160 | and maybe you could just share with us why that is.

01:38:28.480 | You have this kind of finger pull exercise.

01:38:30.680 | Usually when someone says pull my finger,

01:38:32.040 | it's like a bad middle school or elementary school joke.

01:38:34.360 | - Well, this one will say push your finger.

01:38:36.200 | - Right, right.

01:38:37.640 | - Yeah, this is fascinating.

01:38:39.600 | Because it just shows again how intricate the body is

01:38:42.280 | and how responsive or over responsive it can be

01:38:44.720 | to something so little.

01:38:45.960 | And what you're talking about is that when you grip a bar,

01:38:50.320 | whether it be through a curl or whether it be,

01:38:52.440 | and this is mostly pulling exercises

01:38:54.440 | because the tendency for the bar

01:38:56.320 | is gonna be to fall out of your hand,

01:38:58.160 | not like with a pushing exercise

01:38:59.440 | where you're pushing your hand into the bar,

01:39:01.680 | so on a bench press, say.

01:39:04.140 | That bar can drift just by gravity, doing its thing,

01:39:08.820 | or fatigue of the hand grip strength,

01:39:12.460 | can start to drift further away

01:39:14.300 | towards the distal digits through those last couple knuckles

01:39:18.900 | that we have on our hands.

01:39:20.300 | And though our hand can still hold it there,

01:39:24.440 | the muscles are not equipped to handle those types of loads.

01:39:28.460 | And that can start at a very, I'm not gonna say light,

01:39:31.640 | but it could start at dumbbell weight,

01:39:35.660 | 40 pounds, 30 pounds, even 25 pounds for some,

01:39:38.900 | depending upon their overall strength levels.

01:39:40.920 | But then when you start to apply it to something

01:39:42.660 | like your body weight with a chin up,

01:39:46.260 | 'cause that's natural for the bar to somewhat

01:39:48.380 | kind of float down towards your fingertips.

01:39:50.840 | And it actually is a little bit easier

01:39:53.260 | to perform the exercise with that sort of like false grip,

01:39:56.740 | little hook grip at the end,

01:39:58.100 | because you're not gonna engage the forearms

01:40:00.800 | into the exercise, you're not gonna start pulling down.

01:40:04.140 | But at the same time,

01:40:05.820 | while it could help you to perform them better

01:40:08.380 | by getting the back more activated,

01:40:10.220 | if you have weakness in these muscles,

01:40:12.120 | 'cause it's not a thing that happens to every,

01:40:13.700 | it's not one of those upright row type things

01:40:15.780 | where I think this is happening to everybody.

01:40:18.160 | This is happening to people that have

01:40:19.540 | these inherent weaknesses in these muscles.

01:40:23.540 | You or having done enough of the gripping

01:40:25.780 | in the fore, in the meat of the hand for long enough,

01:40:29.820 | but it starts to put that stress on these muscles

01:40:33.400 | that are ill-equipped to do this and to handle this.

01:40:35.900 | And it starts to, particularly on that fourth finger,

01:40:39.420 | which is part of the muscle we call the FDS,

01:40:41.760 | the flexor digitorum,

01:40:42.960 | that is just too much for it to handle.

01:40:45.380 | And that comes all the way down

01:40:46.780 | and meets right at the medial elbow,

01:40:48.320 | right on that spot that you can say

01:40:49.960 | feels like someone's knifing you right in the middle,

01:40:51.980 | in that medial elbow.

01:40:53.120 | And medial epicondylitis,

01:40:55.000 | or they call it golfer's elbow,

01:40:56.700 | is something that a lot of us deal with in the gym.

01:40:59.800 | It's one of the most common inflammatory conditions

01:41:02.380 | people get from the gym.

01:41:03.500 | And it all comes from this positioning of the dumbbell

01:41:07.380 | or barbell or hand on a pull-up bar over time.

01:41:10.480 | So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeper

01:41:13.580 | so that what you're doing is you're using

01:41:15.660 | more leverage from the palm to encapsulate the bar

01:41:19.380 | or the dumbbell or whatever.

01:41:20.740 | And you're not putting that pressure

01:41:22.580 | really distally right on that last digit

01:41:25.460 | because that's where that FDS muscle is most strained.

01:41:29.460 | So you're just almost eliminating that from the equation.

01:41:33.200 | And it's one of those exercises

01:41:35.780 | that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly

01:41:39.060 | so that maybe it's only capable of handling 30 pounds,

01:41:43.060 | and then when you're doing a chin up

01:41:44.420 | and it goes and it drifts so far that it's,

01:41:47.140 | now let's say you're a 200-pound guy,

01:41:49.620 | you've got, let's say, 100 pounds through one arm

01:41:52.100 | and 100 pounds, this is simplified math

01:41:54.220 | that obviously is offset by other muscles,

01:41:55.900 | but 100 pounds through one arm, 100 pounds through the other,

01:41:58.140 | 100 pounds off of a muscle that can handle 30,

01:42:00.940 | it's not going to take many repetitions to strain it.

01:42:03.540 | And you're going to feel that maybe

01:42:05.060 | by the time that set's over,

01:42:06.420 | or certainly by the time that workout's over

01:42:08.020 | or the next day you wake up,

01:42:09.040 | you've got that notable stabbing pain.

01:42:11.300 | Whenever someone feels that,

01:42:12.920 | the best thing would be to determine,

01:42:15.140 | okay, what exercises was I doing that were pulling

01:42:18.060 | and where the bar could have drifted deeper

01:42:20.060 | or further from the meat of my palm into my fingers

01:42:24.300 | and figure out a way to deepen that grip.

01:42:26.340 | When that happens, though, the best thing to do

01:42:28.380 | with most of these inflammatory conditions

01:42:30.580 | is not do any of that stuff for a little while.

01:42:33.200 | Not ever, just for a little while.

01:42:35.340 | There's always things that you can do around it.

01:42:37.300 | I'm not saying ever do I say, like, don't go to the gym

01:42:39.980 | or don't find something you can do,

01:42:41.840 | but I'm saying that particular exercise

01:42:44.220 | that you feel the pain on while you're doing it,

01:42:47.220 | never a smart idea to do that exercise

01:42:49.320 | when it's inflamed.

01:42:51.380 | If you are doing exercise and it hurts,

01:42:53.080 | you probably shouldn't do the exercise

01:42:54.640 | because another reason for the variability of exercise

01:42:59.640 | is there's so many other options that you can do

01:43:02.740 | that will train similar muscles or even the same motion

01:43:05.500 | and not cause that stress.

01:43:07.100 | So, I mean, a cable curl would be much easier to do that on

01:43:11.160 | than, let's say, a chin up where you don't have the control

01:43:13.720 | over the weight like you do by moving a pin on a stack.

01:43:16.980 | So, I think that is a common thing that people find

01:43:21.500 | and the best thing to do is just figure out

01:43:23.520 | how deep are you gripping that bar

01:43:25.400 | and you're going to find that,

01:43:26.240 | "Oh my God, I didn't even realize that,"

01:43:27.220 | because it was just, even though you might start a set

01:43:29.780 | in a good position and then it drifts away as you go.

01:43:32.600 | - Yeah, I think that's what was happening to me

01:43:34.500 | and I'm very conscious of this now.

01:43:35.940 | Again, for me, I haven't had this elbow pain at all.

01:43:39.940 | So, very fortunate.

01:43:42.140 | So again, a debt of gratitude to you.

01:43:45.060 | I thought there was some roll in my elbow, basically.

01:43:48.060 | And I thought maybe it was a tennis elbow.

01:43:49.660 | I don't even play tennis, so there you go.

01:43:52.180 | Other aspects of recovery and variables for recovery.

01:43:57.780 | I think you and I both put out content

01:43:59.540 | about the use of cold and I think we can summarize it

01:44:01.780 | by saying, yeah, it does seem like cold water immersion

01:44:04.500 | immediately after hypertrophy or strength workouts

01:44:07.400 | might be a problem, but a cold shower

01:44:08.720 | is probably not a problem.

01:44:09.660 | What about heat?

01:44:11.180 | Do you personally use heat and cold saunas,

01:44:15.120 | hot baths, hot compresses?

01:44:18.020 | And by you, I mean you personally and athletes

01:44:23.020 | that you coach or people that you coach.

01:44:25.460 | What are your thoughts on the use of heat and or cold?

01:44:28.300 | - Well, I think it might just be an inherited practice

01:44:32.580 | from the days of trainers since Babe Ruth.

01:44:36.980 | But we, in baseball, we used a lot of cold

01:44:39.140 | following performance just because the idea would be

01:44:43.460 | there is some, especially pitchers,

01:44:45.500 | there is some inflammation that is abnormal.

01:44:48.340 | The arm is not really designed to do what they do,

01:44:50.620 | especially at the speed that they move it

01:44:53.020 | and everything else.

01:44:53.880 | So we would use ice as a pretty standard practice

01:44:56.980 | after that.

01:44:57.820 | But not a lot of heat, I don't really use a lot of heat.

01:45:01.620 | And of course, from the recovery or the healing aspect,

01:45:04.940 | that actually becomes rather a personal preference

01:45:08.980 | they've found now after let's say the first 12 to 24 hours,

01:45:13.820 | where you're really trying to control inflammation

01:45:15.580 | of what you know might be an injury.

01:45:17.380 | But then it can kind of shift the personal preference

01:45:19.520 | because the heat can bring blood to the area also.

01:45:22.800 | And then the cold has its sort of anti-inflammatory effects.

01:45:27.260 | So there's a balance between

01:45:29.340 | which one's working better for you.

01:45:30.980 | So there's really no standard anymore

01:45:32.580 | for heat or cold in that way.

01:45:34.340 | But from a standpoint of like post-workout healthy status,

01:45:39.340 | I haven't used much heat or cold in terms of what we do.

01:45:42.380 | We cover the topic of the cold showers

01:45:44.520 | and to try to dispel the myth of even people saying

01:45:48.580 | that there's giant testosterone releases

01:45:50.940 | and all kinds of stuff that,

01:45:52.920 | listen, we hear all kinds of things 'cause people want,

01:45:54.980 | like I think the idea of just turning the water cold

01:45:58.100 | and being in it for 30 seconds

01:45:59.640 | and then all of a sudden magically growing

01:46:01.140 | three times your size is intriguing for a lot of people.

01:46:04.100 | And that's why they ask these questions

01:46:05.980 | 'cause they're like, that'd be a hell of a lot easier

01:46:07.460 | than going to the gym and training hard.

01:46:09.880 | But I'm always fascinated by some of the stuff

01:46:11.900 | that you talked about.

01:46:13.340 | In fact, we started to talk about some of the stuff

01:46:15.300 | in terms of cooling and what it can do on performance.

01:46:18.140 | And that was like, there's some untapped territory there

01:46:22.300 | that I think you're finding out about.

01:46:24.800 | - Yeah, what would be fun would be

01:46:25.780 | to bring the cool MIT technology from Stanford.

01:46:28.300 | This is Craig Heller, my colleague,

01:46:29.580 | Craig Heller's lab at Stanford.

01:46:31.380 | He's done really important and amazing work in this area,

01:46:35.140 | but then it moved on to some other things.

01:46:36.700 | He's also working on Down syndrome

01:46:38.180 | and he works on a number of other really important topics

01:46:40.460 | as scientists often do.

01:46:42.060 | But I have access to this cool MIT technology,

01:46:44.640 | no relationship to the company, by the way.

01:46:46.320 | We'd love to come out to your facility

01:46:47.820 | and we can do the blind type studies.

01:46:52.100 | - Like the blue blocker test.

01:46:53.020 | - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:46:54.840 | And see how that goes with somebody as advanced trained

01:47:00.300 | as you, that's probably the best thing to do.

01:47:02.500 | So content for the future.

01:47:04.780 | Yeah, I think heat and cold are kind of staples

01:47:07.780 | in the PT world and it does seem like people use them

01:47:10.640 | slightly differently, but they are kind of

01:47:12.980 | the macronutrients of recovery there along with sleep.

01:47:16.580 | I do have a question about precision of record keeping.

01:47:23.060 | Do you keep a training journal?

01:47:25.420 | Do you recommend people keep training journals?

01:47:27.740 | Are you neurotically fixed to cadence of movement

01:47:31.380 | and are you looking at the, do you have a buzzer going off

01:47:34.420 | when it's 90 seconds rest?

01:47:35.660 | Is it 90 seconds rest?

01:47:36.940 | I confess I have my slow workouts and my faster workouts

01:47:40.260 | and they scale with whether or not I'm training heavier

01:47:42.580 | with longer rest or whether or not maybe midway

01:47:45.540 | through a workout I'll shift over

01:47:46.580 | to doing higher repetition, lower rest.

01:47:48.340 | This is kind of my crude way of keeping time,

01:47:53.340 | but I'm not, will be just to kind of watch the clock.

01:47:56.540 | But I'm not neurotically fixed to the buzzer

01:47:59.820 | nor am I on social media during my workouts,

01:48:02.380 | which is actually a way to really improve workouts

01:48:05.020 | is to just not be on social media.

01:48:07.860 | - Yeah, I can't claim that I'm not guilty of that.

01:48:10.500 | Sometimes I am on social media,

01:48:12.040 | but sometimes I'm trying to post something.

01:48:13.580 | - Well, that's different, it's your profession.

01:48:16.180 | - But I mean, I'm not necessarily chained

01:48:24.380 | to some sort of protocol in terms of how I do.

01:48:27.240 | I think by this point, I've been doing this a long time.

01:48:29.760 | And not only is it something I've done for a long time,

01:48:31.580 | but it's a passion of mine, something I really enjoy.

01:48:33.740 | So I probably inherently have the ability

01:48:36.700 | to stick to these guidelines in terms of rest time

01:48:40.700 | to know what I lifted even six months ago on a lift

01:48:46.420 | and how it felt without journaling it.

01:48:49.680 | But I recognize the value it has to a lot of people.

01:48:52.860 | It goes back to that whole, my muscle connection idea

01:48:55.900 | that we talked about in the beginning,

01:48:57.060 | like there's a lack of awareness

01:48:58.900 | for all aspects of training,

01:49:00.620 | especially maybe it isn't like your interest level.

01:49:02.980 | And we're talking you and I from a position of interest,

01:49:07.180 | like this is what we do.

01:49:08.020 | We enjoy just how our bodies work

01:49:10.960 | and understanding how they work.

01:49:12.140 | Some people don't care, they just want the end result.

01:49:14.460 | But journaling and keeping track of that raises awareness

01:49:18.400 | to where like, oh my God, I have been on Instagram

01:49:21.660 | for the last seven minutes

01:49:22.980 | and I was supposed to be back at my next set in 90 seconds.

01:49:26.100 | Like there is a training effect of that.

01:49:28.540 | Like if you're training for a metabolic overload,

01:49:32.120 | you've blown that opportunity

01:49:33.580 | because your rest time was very important

01:49:38.220 | to that protocol working as it should.

01:49:40.820 | If you were training for strength,

01:49:42.100 | maybe the extra few minutes doesn't matter so much.

01:49:44.200 | When you get back on the bar, you might find,

01:49:46.180 | I mean, you might find that it's a better response

01:49:48.700 | for your body to rest even longer

01:49:50.260 | than you've been told three, four minutes, five minutes.

01:49:53.460 | And so that way maybe it helps.

01:49:54.940 | But I think that anything you can do

01:49:57.980 | to increase your awareness of your performance

01:50:00.340 | and also give yourself some objective goal.

01:50:04.380 | Whenever we have an objective goal,

01:50:05.860 | it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.

01:50:07.500 | When you're just there to get a pump

01:50:09.540 | and you're just there to lift how you feel that day,

01:50:12.740 | you have to be incredibly disciplined

01:50:15.420 | in all other aspects of your workout

01:50:17.180 | in order to make that effective.

01:50:18.980 | And I've done that too.

01:50:20.040 | I've actually been able to do that too.

01:50:21.860 | But again, the level of repetitions

01:50:24.700 | I've accumulated over the course of my life

01:50:26.420 | and the amount that I read about this stuff.

01:50:29.820 | And I think I'm able to get away with that.

01:50:32.180 | But I think more often than not,

01:50:34.500 | what I'm doing is not journaling,

01:50:36.620 | but journaling in my head

01:50:38.860 | exactly what I think people should be doing.

01:50:40.940 | And that is getting a specific effect

01:50:42.980 | from what you're trying to do.

01:50:44.300 | It's not so haphazard.

01:50:45.980 | You want to get a specific effect,

01:50:47.420 | just like any other experiment that you're doing.

01:50:49.260 | You're doing an experiment on your own body

01:50:50.960 | with your own weights,

01:50:51.860 | which to me is one of the most empowering things

01:50:54.740 | someone can ever do.

01:50:55.580 | When they get bitten by the bug

01:50:57.360 | for exercising and training,

01:51:00.400 | and I like to use the word training rather than exercise

01:51:02.740 | 'cause there's a purpose behind it.

01:51:03.920 | But when they get bitten by that training bug

01:51:06.100 | and they start to see actual changes and results,

01:51:08.700 | you know how empowering that is?

01:51:09.680 | 'Cause we can't really control

01:51:11.660 | that many things in our life, unfortunately.

01:51:13.640 | And so there's some things that happen to us

01:51:15.140 | that we really wish never happened.

01:51:17.580 | And those are not something that we can do anything about,

01:51:19.940 | but this is one thing that we can do our best to.

01:51:22.420 | We can't avoid disease entirely.

01:51:24.220 | We can't predict when we're going to die.

01:51:25.820 | We can't do those things,

01:51:27.900 | but we can certainly decide to show up into the gym that day

01:51:30.980 | and get a workout in or go for a run or do something.

01:51:33.700 | And by doing that, you're giving yourself, I think,

01:51:36.100 | a better chance at a higher quality of life.

01:51:37.980 | So anything you can do to increase your awareness of it

01:51:41.020 | and keep you on track with that

01:51:42.560 | is like I'm endorsing fully.

01:51:44.860 | - Couldn't agree more.

01:51:45.980 | I could not agree more.

01:51:47.740 | The, there is a topic, it's sort of a dreaded topic,

01:51:50.780 | but I think it's an important one

01:51:51.860 | and that's the topic of nutrition.

01:51:54.100 | And rather than get into specific meal programs,

01:51:56.660 | which would take hours and probably wouldn't even manage

01:52:00.860 | to scratch the surface even with hours,

01:52:02.860 | we could talk about principles around nutrition.

01:52:07.360 | What are sort of the themes

01:52:08.780 | that you think people should keep in mind

01:52:10.900 | in when thinking about how to eat generally?

01:52:15.280 | And pre-training and post-training

01:52:19.060 | are two particularly sensitive times for most,

01:52:21.980 | or times that people want to know a lot about.

01:52:24.740 | You know, what should they eat before training

01:52:26.460 | or can they train fasted?

01:52:27.780 | What should they eat afterwards?

01:52:29.020 | But just in general, what do you think are some axioms

01:52:32.260 | of nutrition that really hold?

01:52:34.980 | And I asked this because,

01:52:37.700 | not because there's a lot of debate about this,

01:52:40.440 | but because you've been around this space a long time

01:52:43.440 | and you've seen what works for you obviously,

01:52:46.460 | but for other people too.

01:52:48.540 | You know, what tends to work, what tends not to work?

01:52:51.860 | And how should we think about nutrition?

01:52:54.380 | - I mean, look, you've touched on it a bit,

01:52:56.880 | but like, you know,

01:52:58.220 | nutrition can be a touchy subject for people.

01:53:00.540 | And I understand where that comes from.

01:53:02.740 | I've talked about before the,

01:53:05.500 | there's a dogmatic tendency to nutrition

01:53:07.880 | and there's a reason for it

01:53:08.860 | because it's an area that people struggle with.

01:53:12.340 | More than anything else.

01:53:13.440 | And the reason why people struggle with nutrition

01:53:15.520 | is because the commitment is extremely high.

01:53:18.340 | You know, you could start a workout program

01:53:21.820 | and actually get to the gym three to five times a week.

01:53:24.660 | That's five hours,

01:53:26.140 | based on how you and I were discussing it before.

01:53:28.480 | Well, what about the other 23 hours of each of those days?

01:53:31.840 | There's opportunity to eat incorrectly or unhealthily.

01:53:35.940 | Every one of those hours,

01:53:37.260 | people wake up in the middle of the night to go eat.

01:53:39.000 | You know, like there are things that you can do

01:53:42.260 | that can cause amazing amounts of damage

01:53:45.820 | to your longevity in the 23 hours,

01:53:48.620 | not the one hour, the 23 hours.

01:53:50.380 | So when people finally figure out a way

01:53:54.000 | to make that work for them, it's very passionate.

01:53:57.940 | And I understand their passion.

01:53:59.800 | I do, like I've put out.

01:54:01.060 | So my approach, my approach is like,

01:54:02.700 | I've always been sort of a low sugar, lower fat guy.

01:54:06.640 | I made the mistake of going no fat years ago

01:54:09.280 | and I paid for it.

01:54:10.120 | I was like in college.

01:54:11.100 | And you know, back in the day we were the same age.

01:54:13.300 | You know, we read all the magazines

01:54:15.060 | and that was what we had.

01:54:16.040 | We didn't have internet then.

01:54:16.920 | So we were reading magazines

01:54:18.480 | and the recommended path was to go low fat.

01:54:21.180 | It helps you to become hypocaloric very easily

01:54:25.580 | because the density of the calories, you know,

01:54:28.340 | in a gram of fat versus a gram of carbohydrates or protein

01:54:31.100 | is nine versus four for the carbs and protein.

01:54:34.400 | So if you're cutting out grams of fat on a daily basis,

01:54:37.060 | you're quickly cutting out calories

01:54:38.980 | that allows you to get leaner.

01:54:40.740 | Well, of course that's everything.

01:54:42.420 | I mean, if a little is good, then a lot is better.

01:54:45.060 | So I would cut all of them out or almost all of them.

01:54:48.380 | And at the age of 22, 21,

01:54:52.140 | I'm like standing at a stop up at University of Connecticut

01:54:55.700 | waiting for the tram to come and bring me to campus.

01:54:58.620 | And I couldn't even open my eyes

01:55:00.640 | because the light was blinding to me.

01:55:02.860 | It was normal sunlight.

01:55:04.260 | It was blinding to me.

01:55:05.100 | The photosensitivity I had, you know,

01:55:07.300 | learning later on after a few more courses

01:55:09.460 | that I took there in biology, you know,

01:55:11.180 | how, you know, necessary fat was

01:55:15.180 | for the development of healthy, you know, cells.

01:55:18.860 | I realized what was going on.

01:55:21.800 | And not to mention other stuff,

01:55:22.780 | skin was bad, hair was falling out, all kinds of stuff.

01:55:25.200 | So I think that the approach to decreasing fat

01:55:30.200 | so it's not excessive, you know,

01:55:33.220 | because again, how calorically dense it could be

01:55:34.860 | and having lower sugar.

01:55:36.060 | I don't, I'm a firm believer in sugar

01:55:38.260 | is really pretty toxic and something

01:55:40.800 | that we would all do better getting rid of a lot of it.

01:55:43.920 | That is the best approach for, I believe, again,

01:55:48.420 | in my opinion, personally, for the overall big picture,

01:55:52.220 | because though the people can take exclusionary approaches

01:55:55.820 | to nutrition and taking carbs out,

01:55:57.780 | or, you know, eating only fats and proteins,

01:56:01.200 | or again, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.

01:56:03.740 | And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you

01:56:05.700 | to gain control of your nutrition

01:56:06.960 | to the point where you actually saw results

01:56:08.260 | and got to a healthier weight,

01:56:09.860 | then I always say, then do it, then do it,

01:56:11.780 | but just make sure it's something you can do forever

01:56:14.020 | and doesn't bring upon other repercussions.

01:56:16.980 | But I think that non-exclusionary approaches to diets

01:56:21.900 | are the most sustainable for the rest of your life.

01:56:25.760 | And when I, and all I'm interested in

01:56:27.360 | from a nutrition standpoint is something that's sustainable.

01:56:29.540 | So when I preach what I preach,

01:56:30.760 | I've been doing this since I was 15, 14, you know,

01:56:35.660 | people say like, how does he get so ripped?

01:56:37.640 | How does he get, I have been doing this for four,

01:56:40.100 | since, for how many years, 30, 30 years?

01:56:42.720 | - Eating clean, low sugar.

01:56:44.080 | - Yeah, 30 years, you know, and in the beginning,

01:56:46.860 | it was a slow shift I had to make where I was like,

01:56:50.420 | I went from the worst diet in the whole world.

01:56:53.180 | I was, even when I was 14 years old,

01:56:56.080 | my breakfast was, I talked about this so many times,

01:56:58.740 | but like enemins, I would eat enemins, you know, donuts,

01:57:01.360 | and- - Those long road-

01:57:03.160 | - Yeah, those long boxes. - Yeah.

01:57:05.300 | - Even took the whole out of the donut.

01:57:06.880 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:57:08.680 | - Why would you delete the middle of the donut?

01:57:11.800 | - You know, the crumb donut there, I would eat donut.

01:57:15.280 | - I can taste it in my, I don't like sugar very much,

01:57:17.480 | but over the years, I've lost my appetite for sugar.

01:57:19.800 | - Right. - But as you talk

01:57:20.720 | about the enemins, I can literally smell

01:57:22.960 | and taste the frosting.

01:57:24.560 | And to me now it's disgusting,

01:57:25.840 | but back then it might've been appetizing.

01:57:27.760 | - You would probably have like really good information

01:57:29.580 | on this, but like my ability to actually remember,

01:57:33.600 | and they've said smell is very evoking of memories, right?

01:57:37.740 | - So smell is unlike the other senses

01:57:39.940 | because there's a direct line, literally,

01:57:42.500 | from our sense of smell to the memory centers of the brain.

01:57:44.980 | It doesn't have to go through any intermediate stations.

01:57:46.900 | - Okay, so, you know, my ability to actually recall

01:57:51.160 | exact taste of all the stuff that I used to love

01:57:54.260 | is enough to satisfy me to not engage in those things now.

01:57:59.260 | As crazy as that is, like I almost get my fill

01:58:02.020 | through remembering 'cause of these strong senses of memory

01:58:05.360 | of what it was like.

01:58:06.200 | It was, "Oh, that used to taste so good.

01:58:07.400 | "Okay, that's good, I had it."

01:58:08.720 | - Fantastic. - Yeah.

01:58:09.840 | - Well, that's, we know the neuromodulator there,

01:58:12.480 | that's dopamine. - Yeah.

01:58:13.600 | - Your ability to get the dopamine release

01:58:15.760 | from the thought of something.

01:58:17.440 | Most people, when they get that dopamine release,

01:58:20.280 | it causes a triggering of the desire for more, right?

01:58:24.080 | People think of dopamine as pleasure.

01:58:25.640 | Dopamine, there's a book, great book,

01:58:27.600 | called "The Molecule of More."

01:58:28.720 | I didn't write the book, unfortunately,

01:58:30.060 | but someone else did.

01:58:31.240 | And it's a great book and it's really about how dopamine,

01:58:34.240 | we think it's about pleasure, but it establishes craving.

01:58:36.940 | So you're able to satisfy that

01:58:38.460 | and it's a very adaptive thing for you

01:58:40.340 | because you are indeed very lean.

01:58:42.820 | And that's one of your kind of hallmark things.

01:58:45.220 | And as a professional who does this in the public space,

01:58:48.160 | that's important when people are out there

01:58:49.860 | talking about getting lean and you look at them

01:58:51.620 | and you're like, maybe you need to do the protocols.

01:58:55.700 | It's a huge advantage.

01:58:56.720 | But yeah, I think that it sounds like

01:58:59.100 | you've cultivated practices around avoiding certain things.

01:59:03.240 | - Yes, yeah.

01:59:04.080 | I mean, but not, you know, avoiding certain things

01:59:07.160 | that I think are easily avoided if you realize that there,

01:59:11.980 | I mean, I think that we have enough science

01:59:13.440 | and literature out there to prove

01:59:14.920 | that the altered path is a better path.

01:59:17.520 | You know what I mean?

01:59:18.760 | Like, I feel like if I was just doing it

01:59:20.960 | because I wanted to be lean,

01:59:22.300 | I'm not quite sure it would have held for so long, you know?

01:59:25.800 | - And we have a guest whose episode has been recorded

01:59:29.460 | for this podcast who runs an eating disorder clinic

01:59:32.300 | at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School,

01:59:34.840 | studies binge eating disorders, anorexia, OCD,

01:59:37.460 | and he will go on record, and obesity,

01:59:39.900 | and he will go on record saying that

01:59:41.380 | these very highly palatable processed high sugar foods

01:59:45.060 | of the sort that we're talking about,

01:59:46.820 | donuts and so forth, that they are actually dangerous, right?

01:59:51.820 | That there are elements of the way

01:59:54.200 | that they engage neural circuitry, he's a neurosurgeon,

01:59:57.000 | that reshape the brain in dangerous ways,

02:00:00.140 | and those are his words, and-

02:00:01.260 | - Yeah, tank enemins, for sure.

02:00:03.500 | - Yeah, and it's not just enemins.

02:00:04.700 | I mean, I think not just enemins, right?

02:00:07.520 | Yeah, they're coming after us with what?

02:00:09.420 | With donuts.

02:00:10.260 | - Exactly.

02:00:11.100 | - Yeah, they can't catch us.

02:00:12.820 | - True, true.

02:00:13.660 | - In any case, so in terms of what you do eat,

02:00:18.780 | how do you structure that in terms of,

02:00:21.520 | when you look down at a plate,

02:00:22.860 | you've done these, you've described this before,

02:00:24.680 | but I think it's just a beautifully simple description,

02:00:26.900 | 'cause I think a lot of people

02:00:27.740 | don't want to do calorie counting and all this,

02:00:29.780 | and how should people think about what to eat?

02:00:34.780 | - So yeah, I have what I call a plate method,

02:00:37.780 | and it's just simple 'cause it works for me,

02:00:40.580 | and again, if you're struggling with real eating issues,

02:00:45.220 | these mechanisms become admittedly less effective

02:00:49.320 | because you're having,

02:00:50.620 | maybe you have emotionally triggered eating,

02:00:52.000 | and you can't stop at one plate.

02:00:53.760 | I mean, you can get the plate right,

02:00:55.740 | but if the portions are out of control.

02:00:57.460 | - Plate, plate has the dimensionality of height.

02:01:00.660 | - Or multiple plates, like second and third plates,

02:01:03.940 | or plate, right?

02:01:04.780 | Like then, all these things can be challenged,

02:01:07.080 | but what I say is, when you have your plate,

02:01:10.880 | then you just simply look at it as like a clock, right?

02:01:15.660 | And if you just make a 920 on the clock,

02:01:19.740 | so one arm goes over to the nine,

02:01:22.080 | and one of the arms goes over to 20,

02:01:24.200 | well then you're basically,

02:01:25.720 | you're gonna take the second largest portion of that,

02:01:29.280 | 'cause you're gonna make a line towards 12 o'clock too,

02:01:31.740 | and the largest portion is gonna be

02:01:33.940 | your fibrous carbohydrates.

02:01:35.100 | So that's the green vegetables, all right?

02:01:38.600 | So whether it be broccoli, or Brussels sprouts,

02:01:40.820 | or asparagus, or pick your favorites.

02:01:45.820 | Those are the ones that give us

02:01:47.400 | a lot of the micronutrients we need.

02:01:48.900 | They're the ones that are generally accepted as more healthy,

02:01:52.940 | and they're also gonna provide the fiber

02:01:54.800 | that's gonna be both beneficial

02:01:56.340 | in terms of its impact on insulin,

02:01:58.500 | and also just through filling you up, right?

02:02:01.220 | And then I take the next largest portion of that,

02:02:04.600 | and I devote that towards protein.

02:02:06.700 | And I think it's really important,

02:02:07.780 | especially for anybody active.

02:02:10.100 | The more active you are,

02:02:11.140 | the more you embark on trying to build muscle,

02:02:13.180 | you're gonna need to have protein every meal,

02:02:15.020 | so I have that.

02:02:15.920 | And again, we're talking cleaner sources of protein,

02:02:19.160 | but you'll never find boiled chicken on my plate.

02:02:22.840 | I ditched those days when I was 16, or 15, or 16.

02:02:26.120 | I realized after reading those bodybuilding magazines

02:02:28.480 | that maybe the low-fat thing stuck for too long,

02:02:31.260 | or the no-fat thing stuck for too long,

02:02:33.760 | but the boiled chicken and a steamed broccoli thing,

02:02:38.420 | that ended quickly for me,

02:02:39.440 | 'cause I'm not gonna eat this forever.

02:02:41.420 | So I'll have some sort of fish or chicken,

02:02:44.320 | but it will be cooked in a way that's like,

02:02:48.300 | it's got maybe some sauce on it,

02:02:49.980 | or it's got some, maybe it's tomato sauce,

02:02:52.220 | anything to just make it a little bit more palatable

02:02:54.220 | and interesting without blowing the value of the meal.

02:02:56.540 | And then that last portion

02:02:57.740 | is where I put my starchy carbohydrates.

02:03:00.060 | And again, that's the part that some people will say,

02:03:01.700 | exclude them entirely 'cause they're not healthy,

02:03:03.380 | or they don't work for you,

02:03:04.400 | or they're not beneficial long-term.

02:03:06.860 | For me, it's been a godsend.

02:03:08.940 | And I do think I'm like most people,

02:03:11.540 | my body craves those carbohydrates.

02:03:13.780 | I choose things like sweet potatoes, which is my favorite,

02:03:17.360 | or I'll have rice, or I'll have pasta.

02:03:21.140 | I'm Italian, so I like pasta.

02:03:23.620 | I will have those things.

02:03:24.580 | I'm not excluding them,

02:03:25.520 | but I don't put them in the portions

02:03:26.900 | that you would generally find.

02:03:28.400 | My wife and I will go out and we'll go to the restaurant

02:03:31.600 | sometimes because we travel quite a bit,

02:03:34.260 | or used to at least with baseball too.

02:03:36.260 | There's a Cheesecake Factory everywhere you went.

02:03:38.100 | And I love Cheesecake Factory,

02:03:39.820 | but the way they structure meals is it's all rice

02:03:44.180 | on the bottom and a little bit of chicken on top.

02:03:46.220 | And I mean, it's a plate full of rice

02:03:48.540 | that you wouldn't find me make a plate that way.

02:03:50.780 | I'm going to just devote that portion of the plate

02:03:53.180 | to the starchy carbohydrate.

02:03:55.100 | And so it gives me a little bit more responsibility

02:03:57.380 | in terms of portion control.

02:03:58.580 | 'Cause those are the foods, again,

02:04:01.000 | probably dopamine-driven that are most easily overeaten.

02:04:05.280 | I always ask the question,

02:04:06.980 | how was the last time you ate 10 chicken breasts at a meal?

02:04:09.540 | Like you're getting sick of it after maybe two or three,

02:04:11.940 | but you could eat a whole hell of a lot of carbohydrates,

02:04:14.620 | starchy carbohydrates, because they're just so satisfying.

02:04:18.060 | And I think those triggers, as you said,

02:04:19.660 | the want more, like that's what happens, right?

02:04:21.860 | You just keep, even when you're feeling full,

02:04:23.580 | you want more.

02:04:25.300 | And that's the biggest danger to carbohydrates.

02:04:27.420 | So if you can develop some sort of discipline around them,

02:04:31.120 | then you can still enjoy them.

02:04:33.140 | If you can't develop that discipline for whatever reason,

02:04:37.040 | then maybe they do become something

02:04:38.460 | that you have to work yourself around

02:04:39.900 | or adopt a different eating style.

02:04:41.260 | And as I said, I'm never to the point

02:04:43.420 | where I'm not trying to be dogmatic in my approach.

02:04:45.860 | I'm always trying to say, this is how I do it.

02:04:48.020 | And I'm a believer in it,

02:04:49.480 | just like everyone else is believer in their method.

02:04:51.780 | But I'm open to the idea that something that works for you

02:04:55.020 | and gets you to a healthier weight and a sustainability,

02:04:59.220 | like that is good.

02:05:00.380 | That's good for me.

02:05:01.660 | Provided it doesn't introduce other issues.

02:05:04.820 | - Yeah, something one can do consistently.

02:05:06.620 | That's something I picked up from you over the years.

02:05:10.140 | What can you do consistently?

02:05:11.240 | And for me, that also meant when and how can I eat?

02:05:14.860 | What can I eat consistently

02:05:16.300 | that will also allow me to be alert after lunch

02:05:18.380 | so I can actually get some work done or eat?

02:05:21.720 | I like to train fasted in the morning,

02:05:23.220 | but I don't do any long-term fasting.

02:05:24.620 | It just so happens that I'm fine doing water and caffeine

02:05:28.200 | in the morning and training in the morning,

02:05:30.180 | and then I eat my first meal afterwards.

02:05:32.260 | But I get carbohydrates at night,

02:05:33.980 | so my glycogen is restored.

02:05:35.740 | I think carbohydrates are wonderful.

02:05:37.740 | I just don't eat them in excess.

02:05:39.320 | So to me, I feel like when,

02:05:42.020 | what you describe as a very rational,

02:05:43.620 | literally balanced approach,

02:05:45.440 | and obviously there will be variations

02:05:47.340 | for people who are dealing with obesity or diabetes,

02:05:49.780 | or I've got friends that are on the pure carnivore thing.

02:05:53.620 | I have friends that are vegan,

02:05:54.700 | and it's always impressive to me

02:05:57.260 | when somebody can stick to anything consistently,

02:06:01.400 | except when they're sticking to just poor behavior

02:06:04.180 | 'cause there's nothing impressive about that.

02:06:06.540 | Well, I think that that's very helpful

02:06:09.420 | because I think there's,

02:06:10.460 | for the typical listener of this podcast,

02:06:13.540 | you know, the online content that people see,

02:06:16.420 | the battles are very confusing.

02:06:18.340 | They're distracting because people really think,

02:06:21.100 | oh, there's a right way and a wrong way.

02:06:22.620 | And it sounds like the way that one can eat consistently

02:06:26.340 | over time that's healthy,

02:06:27.660 | certainly fewer processed and sugary foods.

02:06:30.920 | I think almost everybody agrees there.

02:06:32.620 | - Yeah, almost everyone agrees on that, right?

02:06:34.400 | So I think it's calorie manipulation

02:06:37.800 | through some other method, right?

02:06:39.140 | So even intermittent fasting, like you said,

02:06:43.260 | that could be, it's for people that are grazers.

02:06:46.840 | Like if you are a grazer and your real problem

02:06:49.180 | is portion control over the course of the day,

02:06:51.700 | but you can respond to a rule that says no,

02:06:54.460 | you're eating between here and here,

02:06:56.300 | that you can obey that rule.

02:06:58.060 | Well, you're not gonna be able to graze during the times

02:07:00.820 | that you might be doing additional damage.

02:07:02.420 | So sure, there's other hormonal benefits

02:07:06.620 | that people will talk about from that approach,

02:07:08.500 | but from a longevity standpoint

02:07:10.860 | and habit forming standpoint,

02:07:12.460 | if it's fixing the habit that you're breaking too often

02:07:16.220 | by eating throughout,

02:07:17.060 | whenever you feel like you walk by food, it's good.

02:07:21.260 | And it works.

02:07:22.100 | And again, people will tell you,

02:07:25.520 | you can probably eat whatever you wanna eat

02:07:27.220 | as long as you're eating within that window.

02:07:29.520 | But I think the more responsible people

02:07:31.540 | who are practitioners of that will say,

02:07:33.480 | no, you still wanna avoid processed sugar

02:07:35.680 | and things like that.

02:07:36.960 | So, and that's just a mechanism of eating,

02:07:39.300 | not really a diet, right?

02:07:40.300 | But like, I think that people,

02:07:43.040 | I hate to be as like as basic as it sounds with that,

02:07:47.380 | but it's for the exact reason that

02:07:49.260 | if it's that 23 hour day phenomenon,

02:07:52.100 | that it's like, you said you're impressed,

02:07:54.340 | it is impressive.

02:07:55.300 | It's so hard to control all of our behaviors

02:07:58.100 | and food being one of the hardest thing,

02:07:59.860 | one of the biggest temptations for people.

02:08:01.980 | You gotta learn how to control that for so long

02:08:04.180 | and then do it day after day after day.

02:08:07.080 | Whatever that mechanism is that works for you

02:08:10.460 | is impressive and I'm a believer in it.

02:08:15.220 | I think that's how I feel.

02:08:17.900 | I just feel like people need to be able

02:08:19.340 | to be given some reigns

02:08:20.620 | to be able to find what works for them.

02:08:23.420 | - Well, I love to eat.

02:08:24.420 | And one of the beauties of weight training

02:08:26.020 | is I feel like I can eat plenty for my age

02:08:29.140 | and I'm not as lean as you are,

02:08:30.820 | but I'm happy with where I'm at.

02:08:33.340 | I could always do better.

02:08:35.060 | With each year, actually, I'm getting better,

02:08:37.620 | probably because I'm eating cleaner,

02:08:39.100 | probably because I also have someone to cook for me now.

02:08:41.580 | And we like healthy food and so I'm very fortunate.

02:08:46.580 | I don't think we have any packaged food in our home.

02:08:49.820 | We even started making sauerkraut at home.

02:08:51.660 | I don't make it, she makes it.

02:08:53.100 | - Well, my wife actually,

02:08:55.100 | she turned me on to a tip that I actually shared

02:08:58.020 | with the whole channel, which was like,

02:08:59.980 | you can go to, we have a Stu Leonard's

02:09:04.260 | around our big grocery store chain around us

02:09:07.060 | and they have a catering department

02:09:08.700 | and they're often used for catering big parties

02:09:11.260 | and big tubs of grilled chicken,

02:09:13.700 | but like really good grilled chicken.

02:09:15.860 | Again, not the boiled chicken,

02:09:16.900 | but big tubs of sweet potatoes.

02:09:18.980 | And we'll get a bunch of those

02:09:22.140 | and she'll go over and she'll get them

02:09:22.980 | and then she'll sort of arrange them on plates

02:09:26.300 | and put the plates in.

02:09:27.660 | And like, I'm okay with repetitive eating.

02:09:29.660 | I think more people are probably okay

02:09:31.380 | with repetitive eating than they think.

02:09:32.980 | I think that when you actually break down,

02:09:35.980 | how many different breakfast variety,

02:09:37.980 | like variations do you have?

02:09:38.940 | Three, two?

02:09:40.220 | - Two or three, maximum.

02:09:41.380 | - So like, I think when people do,

02:09:42.620 | there's more variety for dinner probably,

02:09:44.460 | but like even there,

02:09:45.860 | you probably eat five different types of dinners

02:09:48.180 | over the course of a week or a month.

02:09:50.740 | Well, if you have that ability

02:09:53.020 | to identify the things that you like,

02:09:55.340 | and again, no plan is going to work

02:09:56.940 | if you're eating stuff you don't like.

02:09:58.100 | It's not going to work forever, nothing will.

02:10:00.300 | You have to really enjoy what you're eating.

02:10:01.940 | As long as these variations of this meal

02:10:05.940 | are something that you really enjoy,

02:10:08.020 | and there are limited versions of them,

02:10:10.740 | the reproducibility of that is simple.

02:10:13.700 | It will take some time,

02:10:14.900 | but if you're fortunate enough in our case

02:10:16.500 | to have somebody who can prepare it for you,

02:10:18.420 | now that's even part out of the equation.

02:10:20.660 | And it's like, it just makes it very simple.

02:10:23.540 | But I do think when you tally up all the costs

02:10:27.140 | of medical care that are spiked by having poor nutrition,

02:10:32.140 | and you then offset that by what it might cost you

02:10:36.060 | to invest in a faster strategy like this catering trick

02:10:39.540 | or whatever it might be,

02:10:40.820 | you'd be best off figuring out a way

02:10:42.860 | to maybe reallocate some of your money

02:10:44.660 | to preparing this because you know how important it is

02:10:47.220 | to your long-term health and longevity.

02:10:49.300 | If you can figure out your nutrition issues,

02:10:52.380 | if everyone listening to this podcast

02:10:53.820 | can figure out their nutrition issues,

02:10:55.980 | this whole world will be different.

02:10:57.500 | That is like one of the largest sources of disease

02:11:00.380 | and pain and discomfort

02:11:02.180 | because people really struggle with nutrition.

02:11:04.180 | - Yeah, and it's a huge problem.

02:11:05.940 | I mean, the obesity, it is an epidemic in this country.

02:11:09.580 | It's very, very serious.

02:11:11.180 | Also, a lot of highly processed foods

02:11:13.140 | are more expensive than healthier foods

02:11:15.580 | when you really break it down.

02:11:17.220 | Even the better sourced high quality foods

02:11:21.160 | are right there on par less than the processed foods,

02:11:25.580 | for sure.

02:11:26.420 | I have a couple other questions as it relates to training

02:11:31.540 | because I think that one thing

02:11:34.020 | that a lot of people wonder about,

02:11:36.740 | and maybe we could do this in kind of a true/false method

02:11:39.740 | just to get through some of these.

02:11:42.900 | - 50/50, I'll get it right at least.

02:11:44.500 | - Exactly.

02:11:45.340 | Men and women should train differently.

02:11:48.300 | - The science of it will say false.

02:11:50.000 | - Mm-hmm.

02:11:50.840 | - And again, not to generalize,

02:11:54.680 | but kind of the point you touched on earlier today,

02:11:57.420 | I do find that casually interested women in training

02:12:02.420 | will migrate more towards certain types of fitness,

02:12:05.940 | like kickboxing, like dancing,

02:12:08.420 | like low-rest circuit type.

02:12:10.700 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:12:11.540 | And I think, again,

02:12:12.660 | whatever it is that you're going to engage in regularly

02:12:16.020 | is what you should do.

02:12:17.340 | Physiologically, no.

02:12:18.500 | And I think if we can get more women

02:12:20.920 | to feel more comfortable in the gym,

02:12:23.480 | performing the same exercises

02:12:25.080 | and receiving the same strength training benefits

02:12:29.040 | and working on progressive overload,

02:12:30.480 | and like, yeah, we've hit the holy grail.

02:12:32.300 | But I think that it's a big bridge

02:12:35.840 | that has to be gapped still

02:12:37.320 | because there's just some reality to,

02:12:41.000 | listen, there are very,

02:12:43.360 | my wife is a perfect example of this,

02:12:45.980 | living a very complicated, busy life.

02:12:49.240 | We have two young boys, they're twins,

02:12:51.580 | and her attention and focus is there.

02:12:55.400 | And it's like, she doesn't do this for a living like I do.

02:12:58.680 | And if she can get a decent workout in, she's happy,

02:13:02.040 | but she's not necessarily working on her deadlift PR.

02:13:05.520 | And so I think that that would help her

02:13:08.240 | and serve her in the longterm

02:13:10.680 | to work on increasing her PRs and different lifts

02:13:13.920 | and building her strength progressively.

02:13:15.460 | But in her life right now,

02:13:18.280 | it's not necessarily in the cards

02:13:19.680 | to have the time to focus on that.

02:13:21.480 | So would you then discourage this other thing

02:13:24.440 | that she might find interesting?

02:13:25.920 | Like some boxing, there was a little,

02:13:30.400 | I don't remember the brand,

02:13:31.240 | but like one of those punchable boxing standup things,

02:13:34.200 | and she enjoys it.

02:13:35.960 | And anything to get you moving is going to be preferable,

02:13:40.920 | but I don't think that necessarily physiologically

02:13:43.040 | there's a difference.

02:13:44.680 | - You started weight training pretty young.

02:13:46.300 | - Yeah, I messed around with my brother

02:13:50.040 | 'cause he was older, he was four years older.

02:13:51.520 | So I was kind of messing around with weights,

02:13:52.840 | probably 12 or 13 with a five pound dumbbell.

02:13:55.160 | - Okay, yeah, you hear that young kids

02:13:57.360 | shouldn't work out with the weights.

02:13:58.680 | I don't know what the going standard is now.

02:14:00.560 | They say, shuts down long bone growth

02:14:02.480 | or growth plates, this sort of thing.

02:14:05.840 | You've got two young boys, adorable kids, by the way.

02:14:08.160 | Yeah, one of the things that is very heartwarming

02:14:11.640 | is to see that you're in great shape,

02:14:13.440 | you're extremely bright, you know your craft,

02:14:15.480 | you love your craft.

02:14:17.080 | You work with Jesse, who we'll talk about as well,

02:14:19.700 | which is great.

02:14:21.640 | You know that there's a camaraderie there,

02:14:23.900 | having great teammates as part of a business

02:14:25.920 | or to work out with just makes life better.

02:14:28.440 | Let's just be honest.

02:14:29.580 | I'm grateful to have great teammates for the podcast

02:14:31.600 | and my lab, of course, as well.

02:14:33.240 | But to see your boys and your dogs and the whole picture,

02:14:38.520 | you know, I'm sure it has a lot of contours and complexity

02:14:42.640 | that we don't know about and shouldn't know about,

02:14:44.480 | but it's a beautiful picture.

02:14:45.820 | And will they weight train?

02:14:48.840 | I've seen the videos of one or both of them

02:14:51.160 | hanging from the box.

02:14:52.000 | - These kids are naturals, I'm telling you that.

02:14:54.320 | - I wonder where they get it from.

02:14:55.640 | - I don't even, you know, I don't even encourage it.

02:14:58.480 | I'm not going to be the dad who's sitting there saying,

02:15:00.120 | "Let's go, son."

02:15:01.700 | Yeah, we got our two days here.

02:15:02.960 | I'm not going to do that.

02:15:04.540 | But they have a natural interest in the gym.

02:15:07.940 | They just sometimes like to be out with daddy.

02:15:09.780 | So they'll come out there and, you know, I,

02:15:13.140 | of the two of us, my wife and I will be the one

02:15:15.180 | who has a little bit more of a longer leash

02:15:17.700 | to let them explore things.

02:15:19.100 | 'Cause I was a dummy at times too,

02:15:20.980 | and figured out best through the mistakes I made.

02:15:23.000 | - Through injury.

02:15:24.420 | In neuroscience, we call that one trial learning.

02:15:26.600 | - There you go, these guys are going to be masters

02:15:28.500 | of one trial learning because, you know, they'll go grab,

02:15:31.460 | you know, the bars of my, the handles of my jammer.

02:15:34.260 | Yeah, that's there, 'cause it's at a lower level to them.

02:15:36.220 | And they're swinging around,

02:15:37.300 | they're doing pull-ups on it naturally.

02:15:38.780 | Uncoached, nothing from me.

02:15:40.940 | One will walk up to a deadlift bar,

02:15:42.500 | stand over it naturally, never saw me do it.

02:15:44.900 | Stands over there and just goes (growls)

02:15:46.820 | tries to pull it.

02:15:47.820 | So there's a, there's a definitely an inclination

02:15:50.000 | to liking the gym and I will fully support that.

02:15:52.940 | But of course, you know,

02:15:54.180 | body weight will be good for quite a while.

02:15:56.180 | - So what age do you think is reasonable

02:15:57.940 | for kids to start exploring a non body weight training?

02:16:01.620 | - I think around 13, you know, I think around 13.

02:16:03.860 | Once puberty, I think it's okay to start to, you know,

02:16:08.580 | 'cause there's so much,

02:16:10.140 | I even say for people that are like later in age

02:16:12.740 | who are just starting out,

02:16:13.640 | learn with your own body weight first.

02:16:14.820 | There's plenty of resistance to be had

02:16:16.540 | by learning how to command your body in space.

02:16:18.640 | So if you have never trained before,

02:16:21.580 | you're going to get very stimulated

02:16:23.440 | by doing lunging and reverse lunging,

02:16:25.380 | even learning some of the proprioception

02:16:26.860 | around movement through space, pull-ups, chin-ups,

02:16:29.340 | pull-ups and chin-ups are challenging

02:16:30.440 | for even people that have had

02:16:31.700 | 20, 30 years of experience in the gym.

02:16:33.680 | So there's a lot of stimulus to be had by body weight

02:16:37.180 | and jumping straight to dumbbells or barbells

02:16:40.720 | is actually doing yourself a disservice.

02:16:42.180 | You can learn better command of your body in space

02:16:44.920 | so that when you go back to the bigger lifts,

02:16:48.060 | you're going to have an easier time

02:16:49.620 | sort of progressively loading them

02:16:51.100 | and building up that foundation of strength.

02:16:52.900 | I'm not saying that you have to become

02:16:54.300 | a master calisthenics athlete

02:16:56.020 | before you can touch a barbell, that's not even true.

02:16:58.140 | I'm just saying there's so much capacity.

02:17:00.200 | Kids are going to be doing this anyway.

02:17:01.480 | And really just, if you look at general play,

02:17:03.700 | they are jumping, they are lunging, they are climbing,

02:17:06.340 | they are pulling, that's what they do.

02:17:08.820 | So I don't know where the avoidance

02:17:12.620 | of structured training is for younger kids.

02:17:15.580 | Again, provided they're using body weight

02:17:17.220 | and maybe less ballistic movements or something like that,

02:17:21.480 | things that are certainly overloaded movements,

02:17:25.060 | I think we should encourage kids to do more.

02:17:26.860 | There's a lot of obesity in kids on the rise also

02:17:31.140 | and that is incredibly disconcerting to me.

02:17:34.180 | So I think, and I hope it doesn't come from the advice

02:17:37.380 | of some that say, well, wait until you're older

02:17:39.300 | to start doing something.

02:17:40.260 | Like that's a way worse trade off

02:17:42.220 | than engaging in something smart now.

02:17:45.340 | - We used to get kicked out of the house

02:17:46.640 | when we were kids. - Totally.

02:17:47.580 | - My mom would kick us out. - Right.

02:17:49.180 | - I had a huge pack of boys that lived on my street,

02:17:52.260 | but we'd get kicked out side.

02:17:54.100 | Like literally you're not allowed in the, no television.

02:17:57.660 | There were video games of course,

02:17:59.160 | but we were kicked out of the house.

02:18:00.540 | We had to go play.

02:18:01.380 | For us it was skateboarding, soccer,

02:18:02.740 | and then we'd find our trouble.

02:18:04.700 | But post-training nutrition, we're the same age.

02:18:09.700 | Years ago, I was sort of neurotic about the idea

02:18:14.080 | that I had to ingest a certain amount of carbohydrates

02:18:16.680 | and proteins within two hours,

02:18:18.380 | then it was 90 minutes of training.

02:18:20.540 | I confess I get, if I train hard,

02:18:22.620 | so I'm talking about the resistance training,

02:18:23.940 | not the running, but the resistance training,

02:18:26.380 | you know, 60 to 90 minutes later, I'm really hungry.

02:18:30.500 | But there've been days when I just skip

02:18:32.480 | and then the hunger passes and then later I eat more.

02:18:35.180 | I might eat twice as much later.

02:18:36.560 | You know, that's just the way sometimes schedules go.

02:18:39.080 | But what are your thoughts in terms of the nutrition science,

02:18:43.060 | the training related effects of the post-training meal?

02:18:47.380 | Is it something that you try to get?

02:18:50.060 | Is it something that you think

02:18:50.900 | people should pay attention to?

02:18:52.900 | - So that science has actually probably been the one

02:18:56.000 | that's changed the most in my lifetime, honestly,

02:18:58.360 | because I, again, we're the same age

02:19:00.660 | and I was falling for the same trap,

02:19:04.460 | you know, where I would really be focused on,

02:19:08.060 | like I'm risking speeding tickets,

02:19:10.220 | driving home from the gym to make sure

02:19:12.340 | I got an anabolic window, you know, like I did all that.

02:19:15.220 | I really did, you know.

02:19:16.660 | But thankfully that's been sort of debunked

02:19:19.360 | and your body isn't just rushing through, you know,

02:19:22.340 | these certain periods of time

02:19:23.560 | to utilize the nutrients in our body,

02:19:25.040 | but are able to partition them

02:19:26.320 | and use them over a long, much greater duration.

02:19:29.020 | Up to now they're saying, you know, three to four hours

02:19:31.660 | after training, five hours after training,

02:19:33.600 | you can still see the benefits of replenishment.

02:19:37.180 | A lot of that is just, you know,

02:19:38.740 | I think there's a consistency element to it

02:19:40.860 | that just utilizing a post-workout window

02:19:46.760 | or a post-workout meal,

02:19:48.460 | even if it's within two hours or one hour,

02:19:51.040 | is just integrating the habit of saying,

02:19:53.260 | listen, I just did this activity

02:19:55.660 | and now I want to replenish some of what I lost,

02:19:58.020 | the energy that I used to perform the exercises that I did.

02:20:02.380 | And just getting into the routine,

02:20:04.420 | knowing that the engine is ultimately fed

02:20:08.260 | by what we put in it.

02:20:09.580 | And the concept of replenishing the fuel lost

02:20:14.000 | is still a concept that I think, again,

02:20:15.980 | different in mechanism, but still important

02:20:18.360 | in terms of fueling the overall performance.

02:20:20.540 | So, you know, the pre-workout period of time

02:20:24.440 | gives us a chance to actually have a longer window

02:20:28.040 | because if those nutrients are obtained pre-workout,

02:20:31.480 | it's not like they're gone in that hour that you've trained.

02:20:34.640 | They're still there and available for your body to use.

02:20:36.560 | So, you know, I think it's important

02:20:38.400 | to get one of the two, you know, right?

02:20:40.440 | Or at least make sure you're consistently

02:20:42.440 | having one or the two,

02:20:45.300 | or you might risk going through all these periods

02:20:48.280 | of having no nutrition to support your efforts.

02:20:51.620 | Not only will your workouts potentially suffer

02:20:53.400 | in terms of the output,

02:20:54.520 | but then you're also not providing your body

02:20:56.640 | any ability to capitalize on an opportunity to feed it

02:21:01.280 | and refuel and recover.

02:21:02.800 | So, I'm not very dogmatic about what specifically

02:21:07.800 | to eat pre or post, you know, workout,

02:21:11.400 | but I do think you should have protein

02:21:13.880 | surrounding your training,

02:21:15.640 | whether that be ahead of time or after.

02:21:17.960 | Protein could be a little bit hard to digest

02:21:21.000 | for some people.

02:21:21.840 | So, if you do that pre-workout

02:21:23.460 | and then you're finding your workouts slogging

02:21:25.500 | because you don't feel good,

02:21:26.960 | then suddenly you put that after your meal.

02:21:29.120 | But this whole concept of the urgency of time

02:21:32.400 | has thankfully been removed

02:21:34.680 | and we can just learn to eat a little bit more,

02:21:37.560 | you know, responsibly and drive more responsibly

02:21:40.960 | so we're not, you know, trying to rush home from the gym

02:21:43.260 | and risk, you know, killing people on the way.

02:21:44.920 | You know, I think it's,

02:21:47.120 | but I think it's great because I think that

02:21:49.200 | that was something that it just showcases a belief

02:21:51.480 | that people had for so long

02:21:53.760 | that has since been proven to be not that important.

02:21:56.800 | And there's a tip of the cap towards research in a good way

02:22:00.320 | where it's like, all right, I think we could all agree

02:22:02.040 | that this isn't necessarily true anymore.

02:22:04.680 | And look at yourself and say,

02:22:08.040 | oh my God, I did that so often.

02:22:10.560 | Like I bit that one hook, line and sinker,

02:22:12.480 | but then realize, okay, we could always make a change.

02:22:15.720 | And the good thing about nutrition is

02:22:17.160 | those changes can happen the very next time you go to eat,

02:22:19.720 | you know, and you'll start to see the benefits of that.

02:22:21.520 | So I'm not a big believer in that strict approach

02:22:26.520 | to pre or post workout.

02:22:29.320 | I mean, even as far as pre-workout supplements,

02:22:32.080 | a lot of people don't take them.

02:22:34.200 | A lot of people don't like them.

02:22:35.360 | They don't take them.

02:22:36.200 | They don't like, they're not necessarily even being used

02:22:38.960 | as the new nutritive side of the pre-workout.

02:22:42.160 | They're just more used to fuel the workout.

02:22:45.000 | - For me, it's water and some form of caffeine.

02:22:49.120 | - Yeah, I mean, it's whatever, you know, again,

02:22:51.440 | I think it's important, I do think it's important

02:22:53.200 | to maintain a high level of output.

02:22:55.040 | So if your pre-workout nutrition requires a stimulant

02:22:59.120 | in order to help you do that,

02:23:00.240 | or if your pre-workout nutrition is causing you

02:23:03.660 | to have a harder time to train because you're feeling full

02:23:06.920 | or stomach ache or something else,

02:23:08.320 | then that's not achieving what you're trying to do.

02:23:10.240 | The ultimate goal is to still be able to perform

02:23:12.560 | at the highest level.

02:23:13.580 | So whatever your nutrition is required to allow you

02:23:16.080 | to still do that, that is probably the most important

02:23:18.520 | factor of all of it.

02:23:19.760 | - Great, I love the very clear and rational approach.

02:23:22.480 | Don't ingest anything right before your workout

02:23:24.840 | or near your workout that's going to make your workout worse.

02:23:27.960 | I mean, it's so simple and yet you don't hear this

02:23:30.760 | because I think people will think, oh,

02:23:32.100 | they must have a pre-workout, they must have a post-workout.

02:23:34.640 | - Again, like even if the benefits that are to be had

02:23:37.780 | from whatever's being suggested is going to be easily offset

02:23:41.440 | by the fact that you can't perform at an output

02:23:43.480 | capable of driving any change.

02:23:46.160 | So that would pretty much negate the fact that

02:23:49.320 | there's no, you're not outweighing those benefits

02:23:51.280 | of whatever nutritive approach you took

02:23:53.800 | and it's struggling through your workout.

02:23:55.360 | - Yeah, for me, the best pre-workout is a good night's sleep,

02:23:58.240 | hydration, caffeine, music.

02:24:00.320 | - Yeah, yeah, there you go.

02:24:01.440 | I mean, it's a pretty simple formula.

02:24:03.360 | - It works.

02:24:04.200 | And then post-workout, I do find I get quite hungry

02:24:06.320 | and want to eat quite a bit more.

02:24:08.160 | - Well, that's a natural response.

02:24:09.400 | The body's going to, and most people want to do that

02:24:11.880 | and I think it should be fed.

02:24:13.120 | I work out as, again, a lot of my postings on Instagram

02:24:17.200 | will happen at 10 o'clock at night, 10.30 at night,

02:24:19.960 | 11 at night, 'cause I am actually training there

02:24:21.720 | and that's where I'm taking those little breaks

02:24:23.020 | in between sets to actually film or post something.

02:24:25.400 | But like I then go inside, I eat dinner.

02:24:27.400 | So I'm eating at 11 o'clock at night.

02:24:29.880 | It's not necessarily ideal.

02:24:31.760 | I'm not recommending that as a tool for anybody.

02:24:33.840 | I think it dispels one thing.

02:24:35.240 | I've never been a believer in can eat carbs after six.

02:24:38.320 | - Yeah, that makes no sense to me.

02:24:40.000 | - Zero sense.

02:24:40.840 | And all the new, all the science of metabolism

02:24:43.240 | that I've seen makes no sense.

02:24:44.520 | I think as long as you can, sort of like napping.

02:24:47.040 | I talked to Matt Walker, one of the great sleep researchers

02:24:49.620 | wrote "Why We Sleep," et cetera,

02:24:51.480 | and has his own podcast about sleep,

02:24:53.300 | tremendous researcher, public communicator about sleep.

02:24:55.560 | And he said, naps are fine provided they don't interrupt

02:24:58.320 | your ability to sleep well at night.

02:25:00.560 | Simple.

02:25:01.400 | Some people can sleep from eight to 9 p.m.

02:25:03.060 | and then go to bed at midnight and not a problem.

02:25:04.820 | Other people, they take a 30 minute nap after lunch

02:25:06.820 | and they can't sleep at night.

02:25:08.120 | Same thing with, caffeine's a little different

02:25:09.840 | because Matt would argue the architecture of sleep

02:25:11.880 | can be disrupted, et cetera.

02:25:12.920 | But if you can eat dinner late and eat carbohydrates late,

02:25:16.440 | I actually need carbohydrates at night

02:25:17.800 | in order to be able to sleep.

02:25:19.360 | Whenever I've done a low carbohydrate type regimen

02:25:22.740 | in the evening, I have a hard time falling asleep.

02:25:24.720 | I'm just too alert.

02:25:25.960 | And so I eat carbohydrates in the evening

02:25:28.440 | to restore glycogen, but also in order to make sure

02:25:31.800 | that I can fall asleep.

02:25:33.100 | - I actually can, again, obviously it's already late

02:25:36.520 | at night by the time I'm done eating,

02:25:38.020 | but I can fall asleep within five, 10 minutes

02:25:40.780 | of finishing my meal.

02:25:41.920 | Because I do think that they have that same effect on me.

02:25:45.560 | But I'm not bothered by the feeling of fullness.

02:25:49.180 | I'm not unable to sleep because I'm feeling a fullness.

02:25:52.880 | But I do like the fact that I feel as if I'm at least

02:25:57.440 | replenishing what was lost through my hard training.

02:26:00.100 | And I do like to back it up with a dinner.

02:26:02.620 | I don't need to eat smaller amounts.

02:26:04.460 | Some people can't have that much.

02:26:05.920 | I will say after a hard leg workout,

02:26:07.700 | I don't have the same appetite that I do

02:26:09.280 | after let's say, an upper body workout.

02:26:11.980 | It can really disrupt my whole feeling of wellbeing.

02:26:16.980 | - You want to eat less after you train your legs?

02:26:19.840 | - I do, yeah.

02:26:20.680 | - Oh wow, I'm the opposite.

02:26:22.360 | - No, 'cause I just feel like I could feel sick

02:26:23.680 | to my stomach.

02:26:24.800 | - You're clearly training harder.

02:26:26.240 | I've seen the way you train.

02:26:27.080 | You do train very intensely.

02:26:28.400 | - Yeah, I think it's important.

02:26:30.400 | I mean, I think that again, it's that trade off

02:26:32.960 | between if you're not going to train

02:26:35.000 | for a long period of time,

02:26:37.080 | then you're going to want to train harder.

02:26:38.900 | And again, I actually feel like contrary

02:26:41.100 | to what people might think as you age,

02:26:44.160 | you're better off training harder

02:26:45.960 | for a shorter period of time.

02:26:47.400 | It's always within the realm of safe training.

02:26:52.060 | I mean, I think that's what I like to think.

02:26:53.720 | That's what I bring to the table,

02:26:54.800 | like an approach that's smarter so I can train harder.

02:26:58.120 | Like not doing the dumb things I did when I was a kid.

02:27:01.480 | And with that trade off being a harder trainer,

02:27:07.120 | I think I get the results that I want

02:27:08.740 | because I'm able to really push it and then back off.

02:27:11.480 | And again, the meal feels like almost a physiological reward

02:27:16.480 | for the hard effort I put in the gym,

02:27:18.280 | knowing that I'm also replenishing

02:27:20.200 | and setting the stage for the next day

02:27:22.740 | to be another successful day of training.

02:27:25.240 | Or maybe not, depending on how many times a week I train.

02:27:28.520 | But yeah, I think that it's a lot less,

02:27:34.160 | I hate to say, but it's a lot less scientific

02:27:36.360 | than we want to make it.

02:27:38.880 | And as it seems to be coming back oftentimes,

02:27:41.820 | like the thing that works for you

02:27:43.160 | is really the most important thing

02:27:44.600 | because ultimately getting your ass in there

02:27:46.520 | and doing what you do is really the thing

02:27:48.320 | that provides the best benefit.

02:27:50.320 | - Absolutely, and there are many things

02:27:53.240 | that I would say are hallmarks of Jeff Cavaliere,

02:27:55.320 | but one of them is certainly consistency.

02:27:58.180 | You make it happen one way or another.

02:28:00.600 | Huge, I mean, consistency really is the determinant.

02:28:04.320 | And I know that that is the hardest part for people

02:28:07.640 | and why people tend to look for the shortcut

02:28:10.320 | 'cause consistency is the part

02:28:11.800 | that becomes the biggest challenge.

02:28:14.400 | But if you could find, listen, if you could find the,

02:28:19.280 | through what I've been trying to encourage here

02:28:20.640 | is like if you could find the nutrition approach,

02:28:22.400 | if you could find the training approach,

02:28:23.720 | if you could try to find the training split,

02:28:25.160 | if you could try, all those things that encourage you

02:28:27.720 | to want to go to the gym.

02:28:28.600 | Like you're locked in at the point

02:28:29.880 | where you said you actually look forward

02:28:31.320 | to going and doing your workout.

02:28:33.360 | - I love it.

02:28:34.200 | I look forward to, I mean, it's, you know,

02:28:36.480 | actually this morning one of our teammates for the podcast,

02:28:39.920 | I got a workout and halfway through I just turned to him

02:28:42.200 | and I said, "I'll never figure out why that feels so good,

02:28:44.680 | but it feels so good."

02:28:45.680 | I just, I really enjoy it and it lets,

02:28:47.680 | and I love to eat and it lets me eat

02:28:49.320 | and I love the way it makes me feel afterward.

02:28:51.280 | I don't understand this concept of not enjoying the gym.

02:28:53.640 | Cardio is a little different.

02:28:54.980 | I always loathe the first 10 or 20 minutes of a jog.

02:28:58.920 | I mildly loathe the middle third and by the end,

02:29:02.640 | I think this is the greatest thing ever.

02:29:04.100 | Why don't I do it all at a time?

02:29:05.280 | And then that feeling evaporates

02:29:06.520 | before the next time I do it.

02:29:07.680 | - Yeah, of course you don't even remember it either.

02:29:09.080 | Next time you get on, you hate it again.

02:29:10.880 | - Exactly.

02:29:11.720 | - Yeah, I think if people could,

02:29:14.560 | if we had one gift we could give to everybody,

02:29:17.080 | it would be the love of fitness, right?

02:29:18.880 | If they could be bestowed the love of fitness,

02:29:20.920 | it would change the entire world, you know?

02:29:22.840 | But I think when you hear things like this that like,

02:29:27.000 | "Hey, that will work and that will work too."

02:29:28.820 | And that this will work too.

02:29:30.280 | Rather than the dogmatic one way only approach,

02:29:34.880 | which could become discouraging for people.

02:29:37.540 | Then I think it becomes a little bit uplifting like,

02:29:39.500 | "Well, I've never tried that.

02:29:40.680 | I've actually never tried a total body split

02:29:42.680 | or I've never tried that style of eating."

02:29:45.440 | It becomes encouraging that you might want to explore

02:29:48.340 | and then you might finally get locked in and say,

02:29:49.940 | "I really like this."

02:29:50.880 | And then you're off and running.

02:29:52.200 | - That's what I so enjoy about your content.

02:29:56.560 | We would be remiss if we didn't briefly discuss Jesse.

02:30:00.720 | One of the great pleasures for me in watching your content

02:30:04.060 | and learning from it over the years is that you took on,

02:30:06.940 | you decided to mentor somebody, Jesse.

02:30:09.480 | And there's some poking fun back and forth

02:30:12.160 | between the two of you, which is very amusing.

02:30:13.860 | But I have to say it inspired me to do something early on

02:30:17.320 | in developing this podcast as I have a young intern

02:30:19.880 | who has helped me with some of the research

02:30:23.080 | and he's interested in science.

02:30:24.940 | He's about to go off to college,

02:30:26.060 | but he also got really into fitness.

02:30:27.240 | We would watch the videos of you guys.

02:30:29.180 | He was helping me get the Instagram content out early on.

02:30:32.240 | And one thing that was just,

02:30:33.460 | it was such a pleasure to be able to pass along knowledge.

02:30:35.960 | And of course I'm learning from him.

02:30:37.840 | This is always the way it works.

02:30:39.240 | We learn from teaching and we learn from students.

02:30:42.160 | But it's been great to see Jesse's progress.

02:30:44.200 | It's amazing.

02:30:45.040 | I've gotten to meet him in person just now.

02:30:47.760 | And he has grown, he's changed physically.

02:30:51.460 | And I think that you mentioned a love of fitness.

02:30:53.620 | I think that one of the best ways to be consistent

02:30:56.800 | is to take on the responsibility of teaching others

02:30:59.360 | once one has proficiency in something.

02:31:01.240 | So maybe you just tell us a little bit

02:31:04.000 | about how that's going, how is Jesse doing

02:31:06.080 | and where does he need a little more work?

02:31:08.760 | Where is he thriving?

02:31:10.480 | I'm impressed by the progress.

02:31:12.080 | - Well, we have, I mean, physically,

02:31:13.480 | we can obviously see the changes,

02:31:16.000 | the list of things to work on is immense.

02:31:18.340 | It's so long for him to continue to improve.

02:31:20.880 | But no, actually, in reality, Jesse,

02:31:25.100 | the story of Jesse was that I knew Jesse

02:31:26.980 | prior to starting Even Athlean-X.

02:31:28.920 | And as a matter of fact, I think the funny thing

02:31:30.400 | is the very first video that was ever posted on my channel

02:31:33.500 | was a video that he shot as, I don't know,

02:31:36.700 | a 13 year old or something.

02:31:38.260 | And I said, can you just film this for a second?

02:31:40.060 | I was over there training members of the family.

02:31:42.900 | So he then went off to college, went into film,

02:31:47.580 | realized he had much greener pastures at Athlean-X.

02:31:50.780 | Instead of becoming the next Scorsese or something,

02:31:53.340 | and he decided to come work with me.

02:31:55.840 | And the expectations in the beginning

02:31:58.180 | were just to edit videos or just to help

02:32:02.100 | with various aspects of my day to day

02:32:05.420 | that I don't think I was equipped to really handle

02:32:07.720 | and grow the business anymore.

02:32:08.880 | So then look at, by virtue of being in that environment,

02:32:13.880 | there's an interest.

02:32:15.020 | I think if I worked in a gym,

02:32:17.020 | I might become interested in working out.

02:32:18.840 | And though mine is not a commercial gym,

02:32:20.620 | it's sitting right behind my office window,

02:32:24.820 | there became an interest in wanting

02:32:26.180 | to work out a little bit.

02:32:27.500 | And it wasn't even an intentional experiment

02:32:32.020 | to put Jesse there.

02:32:33.480 | I just thought that he's a very likable person.

02:32:36.380 | He has a very funny personality.

02:32:38.340 | He's also the every man.

02:32:39.800 | In some ways, as I'm sure maybe you experience sometimes,

02:32:44.180 | like I'm the guy that this comes naturally for me

02:32:47.620 | is what people will say.

02:32:48.580 | Like, this is what you do for a living.

02:32:50.100 | This is what you like.

02:32:51.060 | There's an element of disconnect

02:32:52.800 | in terms of the relatability

02:32:54.860 | because I do do this for a living.

02:32:56.840 | I can't deny that.

02:32:57.680 | I do work with professional athletes.

02:32:59.380 | So like there's a level of interest in this above and beyond.

02:33:02.300 | But for him, he's just the kid who wants to train

02:33:04.620 | maybe if he rolls out of bed before 11 a.m.

02:33:08.220 | and doesn't have a date on Friday night.

02:33:11.140 | But that's the guy everybody can relate to.

02:33:13.280 | And watching him transform.

02:33:15.980 | And I love the fact that even the interest level

02:33:19.920 | was up and down.

02:33:20.880 | Like it wasn't consistent for him

02:33:22.440 | because he was like part interested

02:33:24.980 | and then maybe not interested for three months

02:33:26.400 | and then interested in that.

02:33:27.340 | And I never pushed it on him.

02:33:29.180 | Again, this was no orchestrated experiment for me.

02:33:31.480 | It was just like, if you want to do this, then do this.

02:33:33.820 | And also from a standpoint of like lending my help

02:33:38.220 | or expertise to him, like I said with my son,

02:33:40.780 | I'm not going to force it on anybody.

02:33:42.140 | I don't want to do that to anybody.

02:33:43.340 | I don't think that that's ever going to spark that desire

02:33:46.600 | for long term adoption.

02:33:48.540 | So he got more interested.

02:33:50.700 | He started to learn more about it.

02:33:52.000 | He watches the videos that we're filming.

02:33:53.740 | He films the videos that we're filming.

02:33:55.300 | And he's learning through what I'm saying.

02:33:56.760 | He's becoming more of a student of the field.

02:33:59.940 | And I have to say his knowledge in the field

02:34:02.840 | has grown with the growth of his physique.

02:34:05.840 | And he's put into practice some of the things that I say.

02:34:08.500 | He's put in practice some things he hears other places

02:34:10.680 | and he winds up improving as he goes.

02:34:13.580 | And he winds up starting to love this

02:34:16.020 | like he never thought he would.

02:34:18.420 | But it's great to see anybody grow.

02:34:22.760 | And whether that be physically or that be emotionally

02:34:25.660 | or whether it be just in their career,

02:34:28.860 | it's great to see somebody grow.

02:34:30.220 | And I like to tease him, funny admission here.

02:34:35.220 | There are times when the jabs that I will throw at him

02:34:38.880 | are something that we might know ahead of time

02:34:40.860 | of what I'm going to say to him.

02:34:42.420 | People will say, you're so mean to him.

02:34:45.700 | I can't believe it, that's so abusive.

02:34:48.620 | Yeah, like dude, honestly, we laugh after it's over.

02:34:51.380 | It's good, we're good.

02:34:53.100 | So, of course, but like--

02:34:54.780 | - He's tougher than he looks is what you're saying.

02:34:56.620 | - He's tougher than he looks.

02:34:57.460 | Believe me, believe me. - And he looks pretty tough

02:34:58.620 | now, he's got the big beard.

02:35:00.180 | - He looks more manly than I do.

02:35:01.420 | I can't grow a beard.

02:35:02.540 | I don't, yeah.

02:35:03.380 | I mean, believe me, he's totally alpha.

02:35:05.660 | And I'm like, quickly becoming the second star of this show.

02:35:09.580 | But like, he's definitely contributed

02:35:14.100 | and people enjoy his presence for sure.

02:35:16.700 | - Yeah, I certainly do.

02:35:17.660 | And I think that as you pointed out,

02:35:19.820 | he's a kind of a proxy and a template for everybody.

02:35:23.260 | We can relate to him because even though I've trained

02:35:25.980 | for many years, it's been a struggle

02:35:28.420 | through graduate school postdoc,

02:35:29.940 | made it happen one way or another,

02:35:31.380 | but with more or less attention

02:35:32.980 | and admittedly through waxing and waning levels

02:35:35.980 | of motivation, although I'm fortunate that I do enjoy it.

02:35:39.980 | - What I think is nice about it too,

02:35:41.280 | is that it's a realistic expectation that we set.

02:35:45.180 | I think, in other words, you're showcasing

02:35:47.520 | what the journey actually looks like.

02:35:49.100 | And he's been on the journey for, again,

02:35:52.220 | devotedly for let's say the last year and a half,

02:35:54.540 | but on the journey for five years.

02:35:56.700 | If I could make the gains that he did,

02:35:59.840 | starting when I started training at 14, 15,

02:36:04.460 | and you're saying, hey, by 20,

02:36:05.860 | you're going to have the strength levels he does,

02:36:08.540 | the physique that he does,

02:36:09.980 | the knowledge that you've gained.

02:36:11.860 | That seems like a blink of an eye now, looking back.

02:36:14.920 | At 46 years old, I'm like, holy cow.

02:36:17.380 | I think it took me 20 years, 15, 20 years,

02:36:21.220 | so to just even start to get into a groove.

02:36:24.040 | For him to do it in a period of five years,

02:36:26.780 | it doesn't seem long, whereas there's people

02:36:28.600 | that will criticize his journey like,

02:36:30.460 | oh, it's just taken so long.

02:36:33.040 | There's such an instant gratification that people seek.

02:36:36.560 | Luckily, that's the minority.

02:36:37.980 | Most people are like, this is amazing.

02:36:40.520 | But I think that it becomes very uplifting

02:36:42.660 | because not only is it relatable, but the journey is real,

02:36:45.660 | and people can appreciate that.

02:36:48.560 | This is what will happen if you actually

02:36:49.820 | put in consistent hard work.

02:36:50.940 | And you'll watch him transform,

02:36:52.180 | go back and watch the videos.

02:36:53.740 | We like to oftentimes throw back to videos

02:36:55.960 | where he appeared as smaller Jesse, but also shy Jesse,

02:37:00.960 | arms crossed, head down,

02:37:03.460 | not making eye contact with the camera

02:37:05.980 | to where now he's got his own skits and intros.

02:37:09.060 | It's funny because the confidence

02:37:10.900 | with the growth of physique came confidence too,

02:37:13.340 | which is great.

02:37:14.380 | - Absolutely, pretty soon it'll be his world

02:37:16.780 | and we'll all be living in it, as they say.

02:37:19.640 | Well, on behalf of myself and all the listeners,

02:37:23.820 | I really want to thank you.

02:37:25.940 | First of all, for the discussion today,

02:37:27.460 | I learned an immense amount.

02:37:29.140 | Even though I thought I knew your content well,

02:37:30.900 | I still learned an immense amount,

02:37:32.420 | many things we could deploy from when to stretch,

02:37:34.360 | how to stretch, the skipping rope.

02:37:36.460 | We talked about nutrition.

02:37:37.480 | We talked about heat, cold, training regimens.

02:37:40.620 | And what I love about all of this now that you've given us

02:37:45.020 | is that there's a backbone of logic, you know,

02:37:48.300 | and some consistent themes indeed about consistency.

02:37:51.300 | But the logical backbone, I think,

02:37:53.440 | is what will enable people to really show up to the table

02:37:57.300 | and stay there for training consistently over time.

02:38:00.340 | And as you said, the gift of fitness is an immense gift.

02:38:03.600 | I can't thank you enough.

02:38:04.980 | I know you're an incredibly busy human being

02:38:06.980 | with kids and dogs and a marriage

02:38:09.180 | and a thriving business. - It's my pleasure.

02:38:11.540 | I'm happy I was able to make it work

02:38:12.860 | 'cause I really, I've been watching your stuff for a while

02:38:15.100 | and I really, I love the science of it.

02:38:17.060 | I like the way you think.

02:38:18.940 | And it's just, you know,

02:38:21.380 | I'm just really fortunate that I was able to do it.

02:38:23.180 | - Oh, well, I feel very gratified in hearing that

02:38:25.300 | and honored to have you here.

02:38:26.820 | So thank you so much.

02:38:27.940 | - Thank you.

02:38:28.820 | - Thank you for joining me

02:38:29.660 | for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.

02:38:31.400 | I hope you found it as interesting

02:38:33.180 | and as actionable as I did.

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Jeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools | Huberman Lab Podcast #79

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