The_Financial_Samurai_Podcast_Charlie_Albright
00:00:00.000 | Hello everybody, it's Sam from the Financial Samurai Podcast and in this episode I have
00:00:04.760 | a special guest with me, Charlie Albright, who is a concert pianist.
00:00:09.880 | He has been hailed as among the most gifted musicians of his generation with a dazzling
00:00:14.700 | natural keyboard affinity who made quite an impression by the Washington Post.
00:00:19.640 | American pianist, composer, improviser Charlie Albright has been praised for his "jaw-dropping
00:00:24.880 | technique and virtuosity" meshed with a distinctive musicality by the New York Times.
00:00:31.440 | So welcome to the podcast, Charlie.
00:00:33.760 | Thanks for having me on, Sam.
00:00:35.600 | You know, it's been a great, great time talking to you and getting to know you over the years.
00:00:41.520 | I think you mentioned you first started listening or reading Financial Samurai how many years
00:00:46.680 | ago?
00:00:47.680 | I was trying to remember.
00:00:49.920 | It was near the beginning.
00:00:51.200 | So I was still living in Boston because I know that I've been reading you while I was
00:00:56.040 | even like I think doing, finishing up my college stuff.
00:00:59.040 | So I'm thinking it was probably somewhere in like 2009 or 10 I started reading you regularly.
00:01:04.240 | I think that's not too long after you started Financial Samurai, right?
00:01:08.640 | Right, July 2009.
00:01:09.640 | And I don't even know how I stumbled on the blog or something but I've been, yeah, I've
00:01:15.200 | been reading pretty much every article since and so it's great to get to know you over
00:01:19.640 | the years.
00:01:20.640 | Yeah, definitely.
00:01:21.640 | And thanks for your support.
00:01:22.640 | So Charlie, you went to Harvard and it says you were, you got a bachelor's degree in economics
00:01:29.040 | and you were a pre-med student and then you got a master of music degree in piano performance
00:01:34.320 | at NEC and you also went to Juilliard.
00:01:40.080 | So to me, that's pretty impressive.
00:01:42.040 | Sounds like a parent's dream come true.
00:01:44.600 | How did you end up getting into Harvard and what is NEC exactly?
00:01:50.240 | And I know about Juilliard because Juilliard is probably the best music school in the country.
00:01:55.560 | Sure.
00:01:56.840 | I guess it's probably easiest to start from the beginning I guess because it kind of all
00:02:01.000 | connects.
00:02:02.920 | So I started piano when I was really young.
00:02:04.840 | I was about three and a half years old and we had a clunky upright garage sale piano.
00:02:09.600 | It was missing a few keys I think and my parents had just bought it and it was just sitting
00:02:13.440 | in the living room in my childhood home.
00:02:18.840 | I guess I climbed up when I was about three and a half when my mom was in the kitchen
00:02:22.280 | or so the story goes.
00:02:23.280 | I don't remember it.
00:02:25.960 | I guess I started picking out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star kind of by ear.
00:02:29.600 | So my mom came in and she asked, "Who taught you that?"
00:02:34.040 | And I guess I said something like, "Nobody" or something.
00:02:36.440 | So she saw that I had a knack for music and so she taught me what little she knows.
00:02:41.560 | She was born and raised in Korea and she had learned a little tiny bit of piano when she
00:02:46.800 | was younger I think.
00:02:49.560 | So she taught me a little bit of what she knows and then I had several teachers that
00:02:52.440 | would teach me entirely by ear.
00:02:54.720 | So I played and some of these teachers were like my first non-mom teacher was this old
00:03:01.200 | lady who played the accordion and like the organ a block away.
00:03:07.040 | There were several teachers that kind of just taught me by ear including like one who was
00:03:10.560 | a – she owned a piano and organ store like this flea market in our town.
00:03:17.560 | And anyway, so I was starting to perform a little bit and I couldn't read music at
00:03:23.240 | all.
00:03:24.680 | So when I was about seven, I was taking from a jazz teacher and he told my parents, "Charlie
00:03:29.920 | really needs a year's worth of like classical music training to develop his technique."
00:03:34.640 | And so the plan was – so he recommended this lady, Nancy Adcet, who was like a – she
00:03:40.200 | was a private music teacher in Olympia, Washington and about a half an hour from where I grew
00:03:45.360 | up in Centralia.
00:03:47.040 | And the plan was for me to go and take a year from her, develop technique and then go back
00:03:52.000 | to what I called the fun songs, right?
00:03:54.280 | And so fast forward, she became like family.
00:03:58.880 | Like her and her husband were like my grandparents.
00:04:00.720 | We traveled the world together for like competitions and all kinds of stuff with music and we went
00:04:06.640 | everywhere from Australia to I think Norway.
00:04:09.400 | I mean we traveled the world.
00:04:12.840 | And eventually it came time to be that I needed to figure out what I wanted to do for a living,
00:04:17.200 | right?
00:04:18.200 | Like growing up and – so my dad retired from the military and my mom is – she works
00:04:23.060 | in the local community college in the library.
00:04:25.520 | She's a student supervisor there.
00:04:28.280 | And so I didn't grow up in a wealthy family or anything.
00:04:31.600 | I knew that whatever I did, I had to be able to support myself, right?
00:04:37.040 | I had to be able to pay the bills and passion is great and all but you also like having
00:04:43.000 | electricity.
00:04:44.000 | That's a nice thing.
00:04:45.960 | So – and a lot of music is something that's out of your control.
00:04:50.600 | Like you can practice – the joke is how do you get to Carnegie Hall?
00:04:53.600 | Practice, practice, practice.
00:04:54.600 | No, no, no.
00:04:55.600 | How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
00:04:56.600 | Know the manager.
00:04:57.600 | How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
00:04:58.600 | And there's some truth to that and a lot of it is being in the right place at the right
00:05:02.320 | time, having the right person hear you at the right time, God's blessing.
00:05:06.400 | A lot of things are outside of what's in your control.
00:05:10.160 | So I thought if I can't – if I couldn't do music, I love music, but if I couldn't
00:05:13.480 | do music, what else was I interested in?
00:05:15.960 | And for me, like business and medicine were always interests.
00:05:21.040 | So I was attracted to these new joint programs that these various colleges had – were starting
00:05:27.480 | – back then it was kind of starting up between academic colleges and music schools.
00:05:33.360 | And they hadn't really existed much before then.
00:05:36.320 | And basically what it is is so that you can go to an academic school and you're – there's
00:05:40.680 | differences between each program, but the general one is you're there full time for
00:05:44.180 | four years.
00:05:45.180 | You can major in whatever you want.
00:05:46.280 | But you're simultaneously doing a first – your first year of your master's degree in music
00:05:51.080 | at like the conservatory.
00:05:52.080 | So you're kind of going back and forth those four years, having lessons all four years.
00:05:56.360 | And then you graduate with your normal degree from whatever the academic school is.
00:06:01.320 | And then you go one more year, your fifth year, full time at the conservatory.
00:06:04.920 | And that's really your second year master's.
00:06:06.640 | So instead of like six years, it only takes five to do both.
00:06:10.080 | And so those programs really kind of drew me.
00:06:12.720 | Okay.
00:06:13.720 | Well, let me talk about your childhood a little bit because I did see a clip, video of you
00:06:18.880 | playing piano on TV at three and a half.
00:06:21.840 | So it clearly seemed like you had way more talents than the average three and a half
00:06:26.640 | four-year-old.
00:06:27.640 | I have a three and a half-year-old and six-year-old.
00:06:29.240 | There's no way – I can't see her playing piano right now.
00:06:33.480 | So how much – it seemed like it was like a God-given talent where you could pick up
00:06:38.320 | sound and just do it.
00:06:41.080 | And then over the years, if you didn't hone your craft or practice, do you think you could
00:06:46.680 | still do it now?
00:06:47.680 | Like let's say you didn't have that jazz musician teacher, nothing.
00:06:51.680 | But you still listen to music and you still fiddle around with the piano.
00:06:55.640 | How good would you think you would be right now versus if you had not – if you went
00:07:00.880 | through all the training compared to going through all the training I guess?
00:07:03.880 | That's a good question.
00:07:06.280 | If I didn't ever play the piano, like if I did that picking out Twinkle Little Star
00:07:10.720 | and my mom did kind of start me on having – encouraging me to keep playing and take
00:07:15.720 | me to teachers who taught me by ear, then I don't know if I would have developed much
00:07:22.820 | at all.
00:07:23.820 | You might have had that natural inclination.
00:07:26.420 | But like if we didn't even have a piano in the house, we might not have ever known
00:07:29.080 | that I had an inkling for music until much later on if ever, right?
00:07:34.060 | And if we had just only gone to the teachers who taught me by ear, I'd probably still
00:07:39.180 | be able to play by ear and stuff like that because the classical side, the conservatory
00:07:44.740 | side, all that doesn't really teach any of that at all.
00:07:49.020 | So I might not be able to read music or maybe much more poorly.
00:07:53.420 | Maybe I would have taught myself as I got older.
00:07:56.740 | But I doubt that my technique would be as good.
00:08:00.660 | But I'd still probably be able to do the play by ear part.
00:08:03.500 | But doing the classical training did develop technique probably far better than if I hadn't
00:08:09.340 | taken at least from like a private classical teacher growing up.
00:08:13.620 | Yeah.
00:08:14.620 | So would you – let's say there are two variables, nature or nurture.
00:08:19.700 | So nature is just being gifted with it.
00:08:22.380 | What percentage out of 100% do you think your talents, your ability is nature?
00:08:28.300 | That's a tough one, Sam.
00:08:31.660 | That's the big question, right?
00:08:33.460 | That's the whole nature versus nurture debate.
00:08:35.300 | That's a tough one.
00:08:36.300 | I want to figure out how much do we need to – how hard do we need to try to get to where
00:08:39.820 | we want to go?
00:08:43.380 | The percentage is probably – the ratio probably varies depending on the subject, right?
00:08:47.260 | Let's talk about piano.
00:08:48.580 | But for music – Is it over 50% nature you think?
00:08:54.740 | That's a tough one.
00:08:58.500 | I don't know.
00:08:59.820 | I mean if – there are people who don't – I've met a lot of people and some people
00:09:04.980 | are – you can kind of tell – sometimes you can kind of tell if someone has what they
00:09:11.060 | call the X factor, the it factor.
00:09:13.700 | And even among people who can play almost any piece written for the piano.
00:09:18.500 | There's people who you can listen to and they might be extremely good.
00:09:23.660 | They can play Rachmaninoff and they can play – but maybe they don't have that X factor.
00:09:30.860 | They're still very good but maybe they don't have that X factor.
00:09:34.700 | I don't know if the X factor can be a learned thing.
00:09:37.500 | Maybe that's the whole nature part.
00:09:39.600 | Maybe you can't learn that.
00:09:41.380 | But then again, if you only have that and you don't nurture it at all, then you're
00:09:45.580 | just going to be kind of just raw talent with no honing or focus.
00:09:50.940 | So it's – I don't know the answer.
00:09:54.480 | But there's definitely both that's needed to be really good at – like really spectacular
00:10:00.620 | at something I think.
00:10:02.860 | So OK.
00:10:03.860 | Well, I'm not going to ask you specifically then.
00:10:06.020 | But how about Yo-Yo Ma?
00:10:07.180 | You played with him it says five times and everybody has heard of Yo-Yo Ma, the cellist.
00:10:13.300 | What do you think is his nature versus nurture?
00:10:18.380 | I mean there's no doubt he has that X factor or whatever you want to call it, that intangible
00:10:23.060 | thing.
00:10:26.560 | But he also is extremely disciplined and worked his butt off his whole life, right?
00:10:33.460 | Oh man, I wish I could give you an answer.
00:10:38.100 | I don't know.
00:10:43.460 | Both have to be there.
00:10:44.700 | Sometimes you can go to a concert or see someone and maybe they're really proficient in what
00:10:49.300 | they do.
00:10:50.340 | But they don't – maybe you're not moved by the person's playing or their singing
00:10:55.540 | or whatever they're doing.
00:10:57.180 | And that might be – but you can't necessarily nail it on the head why, right?
00:11:01.540 | Why is that – it was all the notes are right.
00:11:04.700 | The dynamics were good, all the stuff.
00:11:06.740 | But maybe you weren't really moved versus sometimes you go to a place and maybe someone
00:11:12.580 | has technical problems.
00:11:14.580 | They didn't play all the right notes or they didn't – but it's something that's
00:11:18.740 | like you're incredibly moved and touched.
00:11:20.860 | Maybe you cry.
00:11:23.260 | I think that's one of the criticisms also of maybe competitions is that – competitions
00:11:29.320 | can – we can discuss this later if you want.
00:11:31.340 | But what is a competition when it comes to things like art, right?
00:11:35.900 | It's not the Olympics.
00:11:36.900 | It's not who can play something a tenth of a second faster.
00:11:39.860 | It's a little subjective.
00:11:41.420 | Exactly.
00:11:42.420 | There's so much subjectivity and one person's incredible might be another person's eh,
00:11:46.340 | right?
00:11:47.340 | Yeah, right.
00:11:48.340 | I will say that you moved me twice and the first time you moved me was when you did a
00:11:53.980 | rendition of my song Cutie Baby which I came up with in 2017 to sing my son to sleep.
00:12:01.380 | And I just thought, "Hey, maybe Charlie can do an improv of Cutie Baby."
00:12:05.220 | And you sent it to me the very next day.
00:12:07.300 | You recorded it.
00:12:08.300 | It was unbelievable.
00:12:09.820 | It brought me to tears because as a creator, you just want to be heard or listened to and
00:12:15.540 | for you to make it ten times better.
00:12:18.060 | Wow.
00:12:19.060 | I couldn't believe it and I was truly moved.
00:12:21.380 | So thank you very much for that.
00:12:22.860 | Oh, thanks, Sam.
00:12:23.860 | It was unbelievable.
00:12:25.420 | And I play it in my car a lot and I play it to my kids.
00:12:28.020 | Let's listen to Charlie's rendition of Cutie Baby so maybe you can go to sleep better.
00:12:32.820 | So that was amazing.
00:12:33.920 | So thank you.
00:12:34.920 | Oh, thank you.
00:12:35.920 | The second time you moved me was at a concert that I saw recently at Union City in California
00:12:40.180 | where you do have the showmanship.
00:12:43.020 | You draw the audience in.
00:12:44.260 | It was the most entertaining concert that I've seen because you stood up and interacted
00:12:48.260 | with the conductor.
00:12:49.480 | You asked questions.
00:12:51.980 | You had a dialogue.
00:12:52.980 | And then you did the improv thing where you said, "Anybody in the audience, throw me out
00:12:56.700 | several random keys."
00:12:58.980 | And then you listened and you joked back with one of the members and said, "I'll see you
00:13:02.740 | later because he or she said F key when there was a G key."
00:13:06.060 | I don't know my music.
00:13:07.060 | Sure.
00:13:08.060 | And then you put together this unbelievable improv that sounded just amazing and I was
00:13:14.420 | blown away.
00:13:15.420 | So you do have the it factor.
00:13:16.420 | I totally see it.
00:13:17.860 | I appreciate that.
00:13:18.860 | Thank you.
00:13:19.860 | And I would say, I'm going to answer my own question, I believe that nature has to be,
00:13:26.420 | I think, over 50% of it, 60, 70% because you were born being able to hear music and play.
00:13:35.180 | You'd survey a thousand people, maybe only 10 people can do the same thing.
00:13:39.580 | And so you have to have that nature and that God-given ability to do something.
00:13:44.040 | But then even if it's only 30% nurture in terms of hard work and work ethic, that is
00:13:50.620 | still a huge percentage to get to the very top.
00:13:54.300 | Because we talked about, I asked you, and I'd love for you to share on this podcast,
00:13:59.040 | what differentiates the number one Juilliard graduate pianist versus the number five Juilliard
00:14:06.620 | pianist?
00:14:07.620 | And what differentiates the person who's playing at Carnegie Hall, which you have done, and
00:14:12.280 | the person who's not playing at Carnegie Hall?
00:14:14.200 | What are your thoughts on that?
00:14:17.680 | A lot of it's that what's out of your control thing, I think.
00:14:22.020 | And it really is.
00:14:23.020 | There's, I think, Willie Nelson, the country singer, I think he said sometime that he,
00:14:30.120 | it was something along the lines of, and I'm going to butcher his quote or whatever, but
00:14:33.840 | I'm paraphrasing.
00:14:35.100 | It was something along the lines of he felt bad for all of the people who are far better
00:14:39.600 | than he was, who never got a chance to have the career or anything close to the career
00:14:44.100 | that he had.
00:14:45.100 | And I think there's so much truth there.
00:14:47.520 | There's a lot of people, just because a particular person is more notorious, more famous than
00:14:55.000 | someone else in the music world, and I'm sure this is the case with a lot of, especially
00:14:59.840 | subjective fields, like acting is, I'm sure, a big one.
00:15:04.720 | Stand-up comedy might be a big one as well.
00:15:06.760 | I don't know, but there's a lot of people who are far better than I am, technically,
00:15:13.920 | musically, all kinds of things like that, that I'm sure don't have nearly the opportunities
00:15:21.240 | to perform that I do.
00:15:23.000 | And I feel very blessed by God to be able to do what I do and share music, because it's
00:15:30.200 | something that I really enjoy and stuff.
00:15:32.560 | But yeah, there's definitely a big cutoff, especially in a small world that something
00:15:41.000 | like classical music, where there's really not that many opportunities to play, if you
00:15:47.400 | really consider it.
00:15:49.600 | And it seems to be shrinking a lot, especially in the United States, but I think it's kind
00:15:54.920 | of a worldwide trend.
00:15:59.360 | For example, someone like me, I don't work for any company, I'm not associated with an
00:16:04.160 | orchestra or a presenter or anything, but I'm basically an independent contractor, is
00:16:11.360 | what it is.
00:16:12.360 | So orchestras or concert presenters that put on maybe so many shows a year in their city
00:16:19.920 | or whatever, recitals or whatever, they might say, "Okay, we have X number of concerts per
00:16:25.000 | year to present," and they might invite me to give a concert with their orchestra, where
00:16:29.360 | I'd go, kind of like what I did a couple weeks ago when I saw you.
00:16:34.720 | I would go down there, rehearse with them a couple times, give a concert or two with
00:16:39.840 | the orchestra where I'm playing and they're accompanying, and then I go on my way.
00:16:43.360 | And that's kind of the end of that interaction until maybe a few years later when I come
00:16:47.120 | back, maybe.
00:16:48.120 | For a recital, it's very similar.
00:16:49.800 | Maybe there's a presenter that has so many shows in this concert hall every year, and
00:16:54.340 | maybe they want one piano, and then they're all going to want one violinist and maybe
00:16:57.800 | a chamber group or something.
00:16:59.600 | Same with the orchestras.
00:17:01.440 | Sometimes if they have, especially smaller orchestras, which most of them are, not your
00:17:06.680 | LA Philz and your New York Philharmonics and stuff, which give tons of concerts, but they
00:17:11.640 | might have five, six sets of concerts per year over the course of nine months, every
00:17:16.160 | month or two, and they'll have maybe one pianist, one cellist, one violinist as their guest
00:17:22.080 | artist.
00:17:23.280 | And so there's really not a lot of, if you're thinking in terms of economics, the supply
00:17:27.440 | of concerts is very low, whereas there's a whole lot of people who would love to perform.
00:17:34.120 | The demand for giving concerts is high.
00:17:39.040 | And so there's a big drop off, I think, in terms of, I think we were talking, if you're
00:17:45.000 | a tennis star or a golfing star or something like that on the PGA Tour or whatever, you
00:17:51.040 | could be number 90 or 100 and still make a ton of money and have a tremendous career
00:17:56.880 | and have sponsorships and whatnot.
00:17:59.080 | But in the classical music world, that's much different.
00:18:04.000 | Maybe the first, the top few people might have, make a decent living.
00:18:12.920 | Still not going to be in the range of like golf or tennis, but after you get to the number,
00:18:19.600 | maybe it's five, maybe it's 10, then it's like feast or famine.
00:18:24.960 | They might not have any concerts.
00:18:26.640 | In the world?
00:18:27.640 | Yeah, in the world.
00:18:30.920 | It's very, very small.
00:18:33.920 | And it's not that it's impossible, but it's not as glamorous as it sounds in general,
00:18:42.560 | the industry.
00:18:43.960 | I think you make a really good point that, and I know you're being modest, that there
00:18:49.200 | are a lot of talented people out there who can do what we do, but not everybody has the
00:18:55.960 | same opportunity.
00:18:57.480 | And this is really something that we talk about and I think society needs to recognize
00:19:02.680 | the people who have that head start, who are wealthier, who are better connected, tend
00:19:07.040 | to stay wealthier and more connected because you just end up helping your friends or your
00:19:12.120 | cousins.
00:19:13.680 | And human nature is we take care of the people we know more than the people we don't.
00:19:20.160 | So the people who don't have that opportunity, it's going to be very tough.
00:19:23.560 | And I think that's why we need to fight for people who don't have that opportunity because
00:19:27.200 | so many people I think can do more, but they just aren't given that chance.
00:19:32.480 | So that's something, a theme that I do talk about on Financial Samurai.
00:19:36.960 | I love that everything is free on Financial Samurai, the podcast, the content.
00:19:41.480 | So anybody who wants to learn about personal finance can if they want to.
00:19:46.320 | Absolutely.
00:19:47.320 | Let's talk a little bit about the economics of being a musician because you are one of
00:19:53.840 | the top five pianists who can make…
00:19:56.360 | No, no, no, I don't think so.
00:19:59.160 | I would say you're in the top 0.1% of pianists and you could, like if you talked about the
00:20:06.720 | concerts and everything, tell me more about that.
00:20:10.360 | And also in college you majored in economics and I think you mentioned to me in our lunch
00:20:16.440 | conversation that you were being drawn to "the dark side of maybe consulting finance."
00:20:23.280 | But you held strong and you decided to continue doing music.
00:20:29.440 | So how did you push back against the draw, the allure of immediate financial rewards
00:20:35.880 | to focus on being a musician?
00:20:39.440 | Well, so when I was choosing colleges I ended up going with one of those joint programs
00:20:44.920 | we talked about.
00:20:45.920 | So I did the Harvard NEC one.
00:20:47.080 | NEC stands for New England Conservatory of Music.
00:20:49.680 | It's one of the big music schools in the US and the world.
00:20:54.520 | And they're both in Boston.
00:20:56.560 | Harvard's just across the river in Cambridge.
00:21:00.120 | And so I got there and I thought, "Okay, if I couldn't do music," and I wasn't
00:21:05.120 | necessarily dead set on doing music, but music was something I loved.
00:21:08.480 | And I was performing more and more.
00:21:10.920 | Kind of starting in high school I was starting to actually travel long distances for concerts
00:21:16.640 | and stuff.
00:21:18.260 | And I was thinking, "Well, if I can't do that, what would I do?"
00:21:21.400 | And I always thought medicine and business were interesting.
00:21:25.360 | My dad has a rare neurological disease called reflex sympathetic dystrophy.
00:21:31.320 | It's one of those kind of freak of nature diseases that no one knows the cause of or
00:21:35.880 | the cure for, but it causes intense neurological pain.
00:21:39.520 | So he was bedridden most of my life.
00:21:41.920 | He's doing a little better now.
00:21:43.480 | He's walking around and stuff.
00:21:47.040 | So maybe that's what drew me to medicine a little bit.
00:21:50.920 | So I thought maybe business or medicine.
00:21:52.560 | So I interned on Wall Street at NYSE Euro next one summer.
00:21:59.000 | I had a final round interview at Black Rock or something.
00:22:06.480 | And I remember calling the guy.
00:22:08.960 | So at the end of the four years I'd been traveling many weekends, I would be on the road giving
00:22:15.520 | a concert and emailing in homework and stuff, I think, and then coming back for lectures
00:22:21.200 | during the week.
00:22:22.200 | And at the end I had to make a decision.
00:22:24.680 | Am I going to go down the finance route or something where I'd probably make a tremendously
00:22:30.680 | lot more money than I am now?
00:22:33.600 | Or am I going to do the music route?
00:22:36.200 | And I had applied to Juilliard for their AD programs, artist diploma.
00:22:40.720 | It's kind of, I always joke around artist diploma.
00:22:43.920 | I joked before I got one too.
00:22:45.400 | It's like, why do you need a diploma to be an artist?
00:22:47.480 | That's kind of, what's the point of that?
00:22:50.400 | But it's a terminal degree.
00:22:55.480 | So it's basically, I kind of think of it as like, artist diploma is almost like a JD but
00:22:59.640 | for music.
00:23:00.640 | It's very practical performance based.
00:23:03.680 | And then there's other options.
00:23:04.760 | There's also a DMA, which is a doctor of musical arts.
00:23:08.080 | That's like if you want to, it's more like musicology.
00:23:12.640 | So if you want to become a professor somewhere, it's kind of straddling between some performance
00:23:16.780 | and some teaching.
00:23:17.780 | And then there's like PhD in music, which is all like hypothetical for the most part.
00:23:22.280 | And some people do multiple.
00:23:24.280 | But anyway, I thought, I remember giving, I was sitting at Prudential Center in the
00:23:29.160 | food court, I think, in Boston.
00:23:33.320 | And I remember calling up the guy who was my, or the guy interviewing me and I told
00:23:38.320 | him I was just going to cancel because I'm, I think, yeah.
00:23:43.480 | And I don't think he was very pleased, but the bottom line was like, I chose to go down
00:23:49.280 | that route.
00:23:50.280 | And I'm very glad I did.
00:23:51.280 | I'm glad you did too.
00:23:52.960 | But the economics of it, you ask, a lot of people, it's definitely not as glamorous as
00:23:57.640 | it seems.
00:23:58.640 | Like I can see from the outside how people would be like, oh, it's so, people probably
00:24:03.340 | may think I make a tremendous amount of money to these concerts.
00:24:06.320 | They probably thinking in their head, oh, look at these, you know, there's a 2000 people
00:24:09.820 | here or 1500 people here and we all paid, you know, so much money and Charlie probably
00:24:14.280 | gets most of that.
00:24:15.280 | And that's like just not the way the economics of what I do works.
00:24:19.680 | Generally how it works is, I mean, you're a sole, you're a, you're self-employed.
00:24:25.040 | So you're a contractor.
00:24:27.560 | And generally speaking, you, it's not a per ticket thing.
00:24:31.600 | So if nobody comes to the concert, you make the same as if it's sold out.
00:24:36.720 | Usually if it's sold out, it's better because that's probably means that people want to
00:24:40.000 | hear you and then, you know, if you can't, no one comes and they might not invite you
00:24:43.760 | back a second time.
00:24:45.540 | But there's no direct, like in the contracts, there's generally no stipulation for like
00:24:51.320 | percent of ticket sales, which I think might maybe the case in, you know, like pop stars
00:24:56.160 | and stuff like that, or maybe rock bands.
00:25:00.340 | And you go and usually it's a fixed, you know, a fixed fee that they'll pay and it may or
00:25:06.820 | may not include things like hotel, rental car, airfare, depends on the place.
00:25:12.900 | And so depending on, you know, where you're playing, you might have to be arranging for
00:25:16.620 | your transportation, hotel, lodging, car, all that stuff.
00:25:20.820 | And the other kind of funny part of it is that I've noticed firsthand, and no one explained
00:25:27.900 | this to me before, maybe they didn't know, I don't know, but like it seems to me that
00:25:32.380 | there's a correlation, an inverse correlation between like the size and prestige of where
00:25:37.460 | you're playing and the amount of money you get.
00:25:39.860 | At least firsthand, that's kind of where.
00:25:41.260 | So oftentimes, like if you're playing at the, you know, huge venue, very famous or whatever
00:25:48.780 | in a big city, you might get paid less than if you played in a smaller town somewhere
00:25:55.460 | or with a smaller orchestra.
00:25:57.580 | I think there's a correlation there.
00:25:59.500 | We were talking, I think doctors are very similar, at least here in the United States,
00:26:03.260 | where a doctor being any, basically any kind of doctor, they could be doing the same work
00:26:09.580 | and get paid a fraction in LA that they would be paid if they lived in, you know, maybe
00:26:14.340 | rural America somewhere.
00:26:17.300 | And it's probably that whole supply and demand thing we keep coming back to where it's, you
00:26:20.660 | know, it might be harder to get people to come out to rural areas so they have to pay
00:26:24.020 | more versus, you know, everyone wants to go live in, you know, maybe a big city.
00:26:29.260 | But it's similar with music too, I think.
00:26:31.580 | Right.
00:26:32.580 | Well, let me share some perspective from the outside looking in.
00:26:36.260 | I think you absolutely did the right choice by pursuing music, by pursuing what God-given
00:26:42.820 | talent you've been given and doing the most of it.
00:26:46.580 | Because you could always go to finance or consulting or whatever if you want.
00:26:52.940 | But if you went, let's say, the finance route for 10 years, 13 years like I did, I would
00:26:57.860 | say it would be almost impossible for you to go and give concerts at venues around America.
00:27:05.700 | I mean, maybe you could do it, but I would say it'd be much more possible.
00:27:09.340 | And also it might be impossible because you might be hooked on that, maybe that income
00:27:14.340 | or that lifestyle that it provides.
00:27:16.020 | And it's just like, you know, one more year, one more bonus, one more level to get to MD.
00:27:20.700 | And then after that is partner MD and all that stuff.
00:27:23.660 | So it's an interesting cycle that I broke after 13 years that I don't think a lot of
00:27:29.020 | people can break because the money tends to be pretty good.
00:27:33.020 | It is very rare to break that.
00:27:35.660 | It's very impressive that you were able to because it's that lifestyle.
00:27:39.300 | Inflation is a big part of it.
00:27:40.780 | You know, once you have the so high, there's always the next one to go to.
00:27:44.620 | And then you got the place in Greenwich, Connecticut.
00:27:47.260 | And then the mortgage is big.
00:27:48.580 | And then you can't.
00:27:49.580 | And there's not many jobs that will be able to support that.
00:27:52.460 | And yeah, it can – lifestyle creep can happen.
00:27:55.940 | You definitely.
00:27:57.540 | So as a hopefully future father, would you recommend your child go the music route if
00:28:06.980 | you observed her and you notice, "Oh, she's pretty talented.
00:28:10.820 | It could be something."
00:28:11.820 | What are your thoughts on music as a career or as a passion?
00:28:17.980 | That's a good question.
00:28:20.540 | If she was – if she had musical inclination, I think learning a musical instrument as a
00:28:27.060 | child is very good.
00:28:28.980 | Like I think there's probably benefits in the brain.
00:28:32.540 | I think there's probably also the whole teaching of discipline, you know, like you have to
00:28:38.540 | practice.
00:28:39.540 | You have something you have to do.
00:28:40.540 | You have a task that you need to accomplish.
00:28:44.100 | That's very good.
00:28:45.220 | My mom was fortunately not a tiger mom like at all.
00:28:48.900 | She was kind of the opposite of what the stereotypical tiger mother is.
00:28:53.820 | I was never forced to practice.
00:28:56.700 | I knew that I was supposed to.
00:28:57.900 | When I was a little kid, it was like an hour a day.
00:29:00.260 | And then when I got older, it became like two hours a day, which is actually very low
00:29:04.180 | when you compare it to like a lot of people who in maybe middle high school will be practicing
00:29:09.260 | like the serious classical people who might be practicing four, three, four, five to eight
00:29:13.220 | hours a day, which I would go crazy.
00:29:15.060 | I would hate it.
00:29:16.060 | I'd probably quit if I was forced to do that.
00:29:18.660 | I think I practiced eight hours a day including a piano lesson once ever, like one time, one
00:29:23.740 | day and I was like – it was at a piano festival too.
00:29:26.980 | So it probably didn't even count.
00:29:29.460 | But no, I think music is good for kids to – I think it's great for brain development.
00:29:34.900 | I think it's good for discipline and learning to – you have a task that you need to do.
00:29:38.820 | You have a job to do.
00:29:40.780 | In terms of – if my daughter was really like passionate about music and really wanted
00:29:50.980 | to and that's what she had to do, I hope that I would be supportive.
00:29:55.740 | I don't have a daughter yet.
00:29:57.660 | We're expecting – I mean we do have a daughter but she's not born yet.
00:30:03.060 | She's expecting in a few months.
00:30:04.780 | Thank you.
00:30:05.780 | But yeah, so we have a daughter now but she's not born quite yet.
00:30:09.860 | But if she really loved and was passionate about music, I hope that I'd be encouraging
00:30:14.500 | but I also consider myself to be one of the – like really pragmatic.
00:30:19.260 | It's funny.
00:30:20.260 | My friends always say I'm like super risk-averse as a person but I chose one of the most risky
00:30:25.300 | careers that you possibly could have chosen.
00:30:29.580 | In general, music is not – I mean it doesn't make sense to go into music as a career for
00:30:37.420 | classical music.
00:30:38.420 | It just doesn't make sense.
00:30:39.420 | It doesn't make financial sense.
00:30:40.420 | It doesn't make – practically, it doesn't make that much sense.
00:30:47.860 | But if like my daughter was super passionate and she just felt that she had to do it, I
00:30:52.820 | hope that I'd be supportive of that.
00:30:55.240 | But in general, like if you don't – it's almost as if – I can't speak today.
00:31:02.780 | It's almost as if if you don't feel like you have to do it and there's nothing else
00:31:06.380 | that you could do aside from that music.
00:31:09.560 | If you don't feel like that, then you probably shouldn't go into music.
00:31:12.900 | Like it's so tough.
00:31:15.660 | I mean it's tough financially.
00:31:17.060 | It's tough mentally.
00:31:18.060 | It's tough just in terms of the BS that you have to put up with a lot that if you
00:31:23.220 | don't absolutely feel like you have to do it, then it's probably good to not do it
00:31:27.940 | and choose something else.
00:31:28.940 | There are much easier ways to make money.
00:31:30.460 | There are much easier ways to have a comfortable life than a music career I think.
00:31:37.220 | I don't want to be a Debbie Downer or anything like that.
00:31:39.500 | It's very practical.
00:31:40.500 | But yeah, it's not for the faint of heart I think.
00:31:45.820 | Well, give us listeners an example.
00:31:48.340 | Let's say you were able to get into Juilliard.
00:31:51.820 | I don't know what the acceptance rate is there, probably less than 3% or something.
00:31:57.340 | What does the average Juilliard student do afterwards and what do you think he or she
00:32:01.620 | makes based on what they're doing?
00:32:05.820 | Piano is a little unique from other instruments because other instruments have basically two
00:32:10.020 | options in terms of if they want to perform.
00:32:14.140 | So if you go to a music conservatory, you have maybe two to four options of what you
00:32:20.780 | can realistically do if you want to actually use that degree to its fullest.
00:32:25.700 | You can do what I'm doing and be a solo performer and that's basically the only option for a
00:32:31.820 | pianist because orchestras don't really have a pianist.
00:32:35.100 | They usually have a part-time or maybe one.
00:32:37.460 | But most orchestra pieces don't involve a piano unless you're doing a solo concerto
00:32:41.020 | like you do if you're a soloist.
00:32:43.660 | So that's one option.
00:32:44.860 | And violinists, other instruments can do that too.
00:32:47.940 | Violin and cello are probably the most popular of the other.
00:32:50.500 | There's not many soloists who use some of the other instruments.
00:32:57.060 | Piano, violin, cello are kind of the main soloists, especially piano and violin.
00:33:02.000 | Another option you can do is if you're an instrumentalist that's not a piano, you can
00:33:07.340 | try to get a job performing with an orchestra.
00:33:10.460 | And that's really, that's kind of a, that's like an example of a nine to five of classical
00:33:17.180 | musicians.
00:33:18.180 | So if you get a job as a violinist at the New York Philharmonic, that's like what everyone
00:33:24.060 | dreams of who wants to go down that road.
00:33:25.980 | But not anybody, it's very hard to get.
00:33:28.660 | It's extremely hard to get because a lot of these jobs are you have them until you die
00:33:33.820 | type jobs.
00:33:34.820 | Right.
00:33:35.820 | Exactly.
00:33:36.820 | And so like how many people are in an orchestra?
00:33:38.700 | 80 to 100 maybe for a big one.
00:33:41.220 | How many violinists are there?
00:33:42.500 | Those are first and second violin.
00:33:44.180 | Maybe you have a few dozen.
00:33:46.180 | And there's only a spot that opens up if someone retires.
00:33:50.180 | And when someone has a job, they aren't going to retire until practically they die.
00:33:53.940 | Right.
00:33:54.940 | It's very rare for even someone I think to retire even when they get older.
00:34:00.660 | Like there's a lot of older people that play in orchestras too because you can, you know,
00:34:03.820 | you can play your instrument your whole life.
00:34:06.400 | And so only that only when someone, you know, leaves the orchestra, either retires or passes
00:34:11.940 | away, does that one spot open for the most part.
00:34:15.420 | And then you have thousands and thousands of people who want to try to get that spot.
00:34:21.220 | And you know, that's super competitive.
00:34:25.020 | So that's the second one.
00:34:26.540 | Oh, sorry.
00:34:27.540 | Yeah.
00:34:28.540 | No, I was going to say I remember I think the San Francisco Philharmonic Orchestra,
00:34:32.300 | they won a strike several years ago.
00:34:34.100 | And so it was revealed how much they got paid.
00:34:37.100 | And if I recall correctly, I think the pay was something like $160,000 to $200,000.
00:34:41.940 | So that's really, really good money for a musician.
00:34:44.620 | I mean, you aren't going to make that being a professor at, I mean, it'd be hard to make
00:34:49.940 | that as a professor at even some of the top music schools in the world.
00:34:53.540 | Like you, yeah.
00:34:55.260 | And a lot of the people working there.
00:34:59.860 | Yeah.
00:35:01.700 | So it's very competitive because there's like, as a musician, it's really, really, really
00:35:05.620 | hard to pull those kinds of numbers anywhere.
00:35:07.620 | Right?
00:35:08.620 | Right.
00:35:09.620 | Right.
00:35:10.620 | So the third option would be like being a private teacher.
00:35:12.620 | Right.
00:35:13.620 | And then the fourth option would be maybe trying to get a professorship somewhere at
00:35:19.740 | a college or university.
00:35:22.140 | And those don't necessarily pay all that great either.
00:35:26.180 | So like the most lucrative, if you're thinking just financially, it would probably be the
00:35:32.780 | second option, trying to get a spot at a major orchestra.
00:35:37.100 | But of course, there's very few of those.
00:35:38.220 | So there's far more smaller orchestras in the US.
00:35:43.820 | And a lot of those orchestras are pay per concert type things.
00:35:49.100 | And so a lot of times people, and there's not very many concerts, and they might, a
00:35:52.380 | lot of them give five, six sets of concerts a year, maybe over nine months or so.
00:35:56.860 | And so people in those orchestras will often be a member of multiple orchestras within
00:36:01.620 | several hours of driving.
00:36:03.060 | And so they'll just go all over the place performing.
00:36:06.100 | Got it.
00:36:07.380 | So definitely sounds difficult.
00:36:11.820 | It sounds difficult to maybe even make 60 to 70,000 a year regularly.
00:36:18.300 | I think so.
00:36:19.300 | I think so.
00:36:20.300 | Especially with, yeah, absolutely.
00:36:23.300 | Yeah.
00:36:24.300 | So it's definitely something that people need to consider.
00:36:27.900 | And maybe it sounds like what most people do is they get a normal higher paying job,
00:36:35.660 | and then maybe they can be a musician as their side gig on the side.
00:36:39.060 | I played with one orchestra in Boston once called the, I think it's called the Longwood
00:36:42.860 | Symphony.
00:36:44.060 | And it's made up entirely of doctors.
00:36:46.140 | Wow.
00:36:47.140 | Doctors who practice, I think for the most part, but there's been a lot of talk about
00:36:53.420 | correlation between medicine and music and stuff.
00:36:55.500 | But a lot of doctors do play instruments, many of which at a very high level.
00:36:59.700 | And so they have this orchestra that people who are practicing doctors, I think, will
00:37:05.180 | come and they'll give a few concerts a year or something, which is really cool.
00:37:08.380 | I mean, that sounds good because I'm assuming if you're a doctor, you're making 300 to
00:37:13.140 | a million dollars a year.
00:37:14.820 | And then if you are good at music, good enough, that sounds like a win-win.
00:37:18.660 | Yeah.
00:37:19.660 | Yeah.
00:37:20.660 | It could be.
00:37:21.660 | It's a good option for a lot of people.
00:37:24.780 | Of course, whether you should go into medicine now, that might be a changing industry as
00:37:28.500 | well.
00:37:29.500 | That's another discussion.
00:37:30.500 | Yeah.
00:37:31.500 | It's been tough.
00:37:32.500 | I mean, I had a friend who, one of my good friends from college, became a doctor, cardiologist,
00:37:37.100 | did a post-fellow and all that.
00:37:38.420 | And then 10 years after graduating from William & Mary, he's like, "Man, the whole industry
00:37:43.460 | changed.
00:37:44.460 | The whole pay structure changed because insurance companies made it much more difficult for
00:37:47.620 | doctors and litigation and all that."
00:37:49.180 | So the compensation as a cardiologist, I think he said, declined by 30 to 40% based on his
00:37:55.700 | expectations.
00:37:56.700 | Wow.
00:37:57.700 | And a lot of shifts in the industry are happening now.
00:38:00.220 | Private equity firms are acquiring more and more private practices.
00:38:04.020 | I think that's happening across the country quite a bit.
00:38:06.260 | And then that changes a whole bunch of everything as well because now it's less doctors who
00:38:12.020 | are working for themselves or for a hospital and shifting more toward doctors working for
00:38:17.900 | a financial group of some kind.
00:38:21.700 | Yeah.
00:38:23.060 | Let me ask, in terms of, again, being a musician, if you don't have your fingers and hands,
00:38:28.540 | you can't play, right?
00:38:30.500 | And this is something that I've been thinking about myself because if I don't have my fingers
00:38:33.140 | and hands, I can't write.
00:38:35.580 | And one of the things I like to do is forecast my future.
00:38:39.640 | And several years ago, I started getting carpal tunnel syndrome in my wrist.
00:38:43.500 | I was like, "Man, I don't want to write because I'm just writing too much."
00:38:45.980 | So I slowed down my writing.
00:38:48.620 | And also my vision during the pandemic started getting poor.
00:38:52.940 | My visual acuity and then the diopter was getting worse.
00:38:56.820 | My myopia, my nearsightedness.
00:38:59.140 | And I was thinking to myself, "At this rate, I don't know if I can continue writing in
00:39:03.020 | 10 years."
00:39:04.300 | So I thought, "Well, I think as a hedge, let's just do more podcasts because hopefully my
00:39:09.220 | voice will last for a long period of time."
00:39:12.100 | Do you as a musician think, "There might be one day where my fingers and hands don't work
00:39:19.100 | or my fingers don't listen to my brain," because right now I'm assuming a lot of the notes
00:39:23.300 | you play is just automatic.
00:39:24.540 | It's just like walking or talking or breathing.
00:39:27.620 | A lot is muscle memory.
00:39:29.620 | Yeah, muscle memory.
00:39:30.620 | Do you worry about in the future one day not being able to play?
00:39:34.900 | I hope that it doesn't ever happen that I can't play.
00:39:39.100 | I don't worry about it.
00:39:40.620 | I just try not to worry about it, that is.
00:39:42.420 | Maybe I should.
00:39:44.060 | But I've been fortunate to have been able to play for so long.
00:39:49.820 | I'm in my 30s now and I've been playing for decades and decades.
00:39:56.620 | I love music and if there was a time that I physically or mentally couldn't do it, I
00:40:05.140 | probably would be very sad.
00:40:08.220 | I hope I wouldn't be depressed or something.
00:40:12.020 | I'd probably be very sad.
00:40:16.180 | I guess the only thing you can do is hope that it doesn't happen and pray to God that
00:40:19.540 | it doesn't happen.
00:40:20.540 | No, I think you can do more though.
00:40:24.140 | The reason why I bring this up is because I'm 45 now and so I didn't really think about
00:40:27.900 | physical ailments as much in my 30s at your age.
00:40:30.900 | But I listened to Izzac Perlman play before he retired.
00:40:34.620 | An amazing musician.
00:40:35.620 | My wife loves him.
00:40:37.660 | Incredible.
00:40:38.660 | I think for normal people who don't know music, they can't really tell when a musician messes
00:40:42.600 | up on stage.
00:40:44.460 | I'm definitely a normal to below normal person in terms of music.
00:40:48.780 | But I heard him mess up a little bit.
00:40:50.860 | He has huge hands and I was like, "Oh man, this could be his swan song."
00:40:55.420 | It was a little bit sad.
00:40:56.940 | And what I'm saying is that it's tough to face our mortality but man, I think it's like
00:41:03.140 | around 40, 45.
00:41:05.160 | It seems like the things that we thought we could always do tend to fade.
00:41:09.740 | And so for you, I feel like your talent is unbelievable but if you could record more
00:41:18.020 | of your music on CDs or just on YouTube and all that and then it would last forever.
00:41:24.420 | I think that's one of the best hedges I guess or to diversify your identity.
00:41:30.860 | Because what happens is the more we're invested in our careers or who we think we are, like
00:41:36.500 | for you as a musician or for me as a banker or whatever, if we lose that, oh man, it's
00:41:42.340 | very devastating and it could take a while to get out of that hole.
00:41:45.580 | It kind of becomes part of your identity really, right?
00:41:48.420 | Oh, absolutely.
00:41:49.420 | People's occupations, they kind of become embedded with kind of who they are for better
00:41:55.020 | or for worse.
00:41:56.700 | I do try to record a lot.
00:41:58.100 | I have a few albums out and I've been doing more and more with YouTube.
00:42:01.220 | So shameless plug for YouTube.
00:42:03.660 | Absolutely.
00:42:04.660 | But yeah, so I try to record more and more.
00:42:09.180 | And I do a little bit of teaching on the side and things like that remotely.
00:42:14.180 | But yeah, it would be – so as a musician, there are some things you can also do to try
00:42:18.860 | to prevent potential problems.
00:42:22.900 | One of the most important things – I mean it doesn't guarantee it at all.
00:42:26.060 | But one of the most important things is staying very loose when you're playing.
00:42:30.720 | One thing that happens and it can kind of happen from a very young age is if you get
00:42:34.700 | into the habit of being tense while you're performing or practicing or anything like
00:42:38.260 | that, tightening up your hands, fingers, wrists, arms, all that stuff.
00:42:44.100 | Those habits are hard to break.
00:42:45.900 | But also they can kind of exacerbate potential problems and lead to problems.
00:42:52.340 | But staying loose, even when you're playing crazy stuff, there's bajillions of microseconds
00:42:57.620 | where you can take a split second to rest and keep loosey-goosey for lack of a better
00:43:01.940 | term.
00:43:03.140 | That is extremely important I think to help prevent things like carpal tunnel and things
00:43:09.860 | like that.
00:43:10.860 | I don't want to be a doctor or anything but staying loose I think is very important.
00:43:14.380 | Yeah.
00:43:15.380 | Have you ever had a point in doing a performance where your brain just froze up and you didn't
00:43:20.460 | know what to play?
00:43:21.460 | Oh yeah.
00:43:22.460 | Memory slips.
00:43:23.460 | Those are horrible.
00:43:24.460 | Luckily, that's when I can – that's when the improvisation portion comes in and I can
00:43:30.820 | just kind of make something up.
00:43:32.220 | A lot of the time, a lot of the time, very few people will know.
00:43:37.740 | I remember when I was a kid, it happened to me once.
00:43:39.860 | I was playing – I think I was like 13 or 14 and my teacher was with me.
00:43:43.540 | I was playing with an orchestra in I think Port Angeles, Washington.
00:43:49.420 | You're playing entirely by memory.
00:43:50.660 | So like I skipped a part and I'm playing with like an 80-piece orchestra and they are not
00:43:54.740 | skipping the part because they've got the music.
00:43:56.740 | I like skipped like a page or something or looped back or something because sometimes
00:44:03.940 | from going to one section to another, like one or two notes can mean whether you repeat
00:44:07.820 | a section or go on to the next section.
00:44:11.140 | Somehow though, the conductor and I like connected during the performance and we figured it out
00:44:15.660 | and we got through it and it was smooth enough that my teacher didn't even realize.
00:44:19.860 | He was sitting there watching the performance.
00:44:22.300 | So that was good.
00:44:23.780 | But it happens and that's probably one of my bigger fears when it comes to performing
00:44:28.660 | is that sometimes no matter how much you practice, how much you prepare, sometimes it's – your
00:44:34.860 | mind can just go blank and you'd like look at your hands.
00:44:36.920 | Just like when you think about how to walk, if you think about the physical movements
00:44:40.700 | of your toes and feet and ankles and stuff and your legs as you're walking, suddenly
00:44:44.580 | you forget how to walk, right?
00:44:45.940 | It becomes awkward.
00:44:49.000 | But yeah, it can be – that can be kind of scary.
00:44:51.860 | You told me something that I found fascinating.
00:44:56.100 | You said that before you give a show, you practice for a whole year the piece.
00:45:03.860 | Is that – a whole year and when you say a whole year, how many hours do you practice
00:45:09.220 | a week for that whole year on that piece?
00:45:12.440 | So yeah, I like to – if it's a new piece, depending on how weird sounding the piece
00:45:17.700 | is, if it's kind of a normal sounding piece, it's a little bit easier because you can
00:45:22.100 | intuitively know if something is right or wrong because it just sounds right or wrong.
00:45:25.420 | But then there are some pieces that it's not so clear.
00:45:29.380 | Maybe everything sounds wrong and so you have to – you don't know if it's right or
00:45:32.060 | wrong.
00:45:33.220 | I like to – I'm a horrible sight reader.
00:45:35.300 | I'm very slow.
00:45:36.300 | But I'm pretty good at memorizing.
00:45:40.460 | But I like to have at least a year to like slowly do the piece.
00:45:44.020 | But many pieces that I perform, you know, some of the pieces I perform even today are
00:45:47.880 | pieces that I've learned, you know, 20 years ago.
00:45:50.580 | That's one of the things also, as you get older as a performer, it's not – because
00:45:54.520 | it's not just about who can play fastest or who can play, you know, the loudest or
00:45:58.820 | anything like that because it's, you know, it's a lot of – it's art and entertainment.
00:46:02.580 | It's subjective.
00:46:04.660 | As you get older, maybe, you know, even people who are 70 who are performing, you know, they're
00:46:09.380 | not in the youth of their life at that stage.
00:46:13.860 | But a lot of times, their performing can be just absolutely incredible in its depth and
00:46:19.980 | stuff and maybe they're technically not as proficient as they were when they were
00:46:23.460 | 25.
00:46:24.460 | Yeah.
00:46:25.460 | But, you know, they have that – it's overcompensated by – it can be overcompensated by the level
00:46:31.580 | of maturity and insight into what and how they're playing it that can make it just,
00:46:37.900 | you know, incredibly moving.
00:46:39.700 | Right.
00:46:40.700 | Well, one of the things – one of the reasons why I thought it was incredible that you practice
00:46:44.740 | for a whole year before performing the piece is because in my mind, I think, well, you've
00:46:50.300 | had decades of experience.
00:46:51.940 | You know the music.
00:46:53.580 | You can listen and pick up.
00:46:55.420 | I'm always thinking, ah, you know, I would say, yeah, two weeks of practice and you're
00:46:59.540 | good to go or a month of practice and you're good to go.
00:47:02.540 | And the point I'm trying to make to listeners is that getting to the top of whatever your
00:47:07.180 | craft, it just doesn't come by winging it.
00:47:11.220 | You've got to work at it over and over and over again.
00:47:14.860 | And even if you've mastered it, things can still mess up and that's why you've got
00:47:18.020 | to continue to work at it.
00:47:20.100 | Absolutely.
00:47:21.100 | And it's – I think you've probably heard that saying or something or maybe it was a
00:47:26.380 | TikTok trend or something and it's like, oh, you pay someone, an expert craftsman or
00:47:32.460 | something and they can fix it in five minutes and then they charge a lot of money or something.
00:47:37.180 | And then the person might be like, oh, why is it – you only work for five minutes.
00:47:40.360 | How come it costs $500 or whatever?
00:47:42.580 | And it's like, well, you're not paying for that five minutes.
00:47:44.340 | You're paying for the 50 years of dedication and experience and practice to be able to
00:47:48.860 | do it in five minutes.
00:47:50.860 | Right.
00:47:51.860 | That's exactly right.
00:47:52.860 | And it's a lot – if I were to calculate like how much I make in terms of like per
00:47:57.620 | hour, it would probably be like single digit cents or less per hour when you factor in
00:48:03.500 | the practicing and the work over the years and stuff.
00:48:06.580 | It's definitely not for the money.
00:48:10.180 | Now, I hear you.
00:48:14.060 | In conclusion, I actually want to learn or hear from you about your thoughts on delusion.
00:48:20.020 | And this is interesting because you say you do teaching and I'm sure teaching pays pretty
00:48:25.340 | well.
00:48:26.340 | I've taught myself high school tennis for three years.
00:48:28.820 | It doesn't pay very well.
00:48:30.180 | But I've also had to manage expectations for the children, the high schoolers and also
00:48:35.700 | the parents who might think that their children are better than they are and deserve to play
00:48:40.200 | at a higher level on the depth charts, on the rankings.
00:48:44.020 | So as a teacher, I'm presuming that you can kind of identify within the first five
00:48:50.100 | minutes, maybe two minutes, whether the child is talented or maybe just not as talented
00:48:57.100 | as the parents think.
00:48:58.980 | So how do you as a teacher make sure that the child is not crushed in terms of their
00:49:05.700 | hopes and dreams of being like an amazing musician?
00:49:08.100 | And how do you manage the expectations of the parents?
00:49:11.820 | Because you will find out eventually when you become a father that your child will be
00:49:16.140 | the most beautiful, amazing child in the world and you might have – fall under their spell
00:49:21.180 | in terms of thinking they're better than they really are in whatever they like to do.
00:49:24.940 | That's a good question.
00:49:28.780 | I think you're probably right.
00:49:29.820 | You can – like in terms of teaching, you can tell if someone has the X factor or not
00:49:35.860 | within probably seconds of them playing.
00:49:40.620 | But I might even say a step further and say that most people – maybe not when they're
00:49:45.580 | super young but when they're a little older, if you see someone who is in middle school
00:49:49.820 | playing an instrument, you can tell if they have – even a normal person who is not in
00:49:55.460 | music at all can watch that person play, watch the kid play and be like, "That kid has
00:50:00.540 | it or doesn't?"
00:50:02.540 | I think it's – I think that at least for music, it's pretty clear.
00:50:07.580 | You see some kids who are 8 years old who are just like – you're jaw dropping.
00:50:13.100 | It's like holy smokes.
00:50:14.780 | What is – like this is incredible.
00:50:16.940 | Then there's most kids who aren't.
00:50:21.780 | So I'm sure there are parents who are delusional about my kid is going to be the next yo-yo
00:50:30.540 | mom when they're clearly not, no matter how much they practice or work or whatever.
00:50:38.180 | With my students, I try to be clear.
00:50:39.500 | If the parents ask about it, I can tell them, "Well, they're probably not going to do
00:50:43.860 | this as a career."
00:50:45.260 | I can tell.
00:50:46.780 | But I think at least I've been fortunate enough that the people I've worked with have
00:50:50.120 | not been delusional I think in terms of that.
00:50:53.700 | But it's probably important to be – you can say it in a nice way but like at least
00:50:59.900 | to the parents, if they are delusional, it's probably best to at least be up front with
00:51:06.020 | them and be like, "I don't think."
00:51:08.620 | I might be wrong but – yeah.
00:51:10.420 | >> Right.
00:51:11.420 | I mean it's a tough conversation.
00:51:13.540 | I truly believe being congruent with your thoughts and your actions and the reality
00:51:19.380 | is so important to manage happiness because the worst is if you think you deserve to go
00:51:25.100 | to Harvard and you don't get into Harvard or you deserve to be a concert pianist and
00:51:30.780 | you can't get any gigs, it's really soul crushing.
00:51:33.500 | But if you can adjust your expectations more closely to reality, that will bring a greater
00:51:40.820 | level of happiness.
00:51:43.220 | >> There was this thing on the internet that I read a long time ago and they had like a
00:51:47.500 | bunch of diagrams and stuff and they were like, "Happiness is the difference between
00:51:50.740 | expectation and reality.
00:51:52.860 | And if expectations exceed reality, then that's like – it makes you sad.
00:51:57.860 | But if reality exceeds your expectations, then that's like happy."
00:52:01.340 | There's probably some truth there.
00:52:04.380 | >> No, for sure.
00:52:06.100 | I've had pretty low expectations all my life.
00:52:09.060 | I mean since like trying to take the SATs, I was like, "How do you guys get high SATs?"
00:52:14.180 | I had to – I remember going to Barnes & Noble and just flipping through the SAT prep book.
00:52:18.180 | I was thinking, "Oh, well if I flip through it, I must be learning."
00:52:21.860 | But clearly I was fooling myself because my SAT scores were quite poor and we couldn't
00:52:26.340 | afford like $2,500 Princeton review stuff.
00:52:30.380 | But by going to a public school, I was thinking, "Oh, if I get a $30,000 a year job, I'll
00:52:34.660 | be happy."
00:52:35.940 | And so yeah, please manage expectations, folks.
00:52:39.980 | I know I talk to really successful people in their arts like yourself and others.
00:52:45.320 | But I'm just curious as to how people get to where they are right now.
00:52:50.620 | It's always amazing to hear from people like you directly.
00:52:54.780 | >> I think comparison also is something that can be – can cause you to be less happy.
00:53:03.660 | If you compare occasionally with other people in your field or whatever, it can – and
00:53:08.540 | you can use that as motivation.
00:53:10.300 | Oh, like I can – that person did this.
00:53:14.180 | That's great.
00:53:15.180 | Great for them.
00:53:16.180 | I'm going to try to do something amazing too.
00:53:18.700 | If you can use it as motivation on occasion, that can be good.
00:53:22.260 | But if you're always going through social media and it's like, "Oh, so-and-so is
00:53:26.300 | doing this and I'm not.
00:53:28.900 | How come I'm not as advanced in my career or in my whatever?"
00:53:33.700 | There's very little that can – good that can come from that kind of thing as well.
00:53:38.560 | Especially in careers where a lot of it is subjective and a lot of it isn't necessarily
00:53:43.020 | how many hours you put in, that can be especially kind of a difficult thing.
00:53:51.140 | So not comparing yourself too much is a good thing I think.
00:53:54.420 | >> Yeah, it's tough because on Financial Samurai, I just write about my experiences
00:53:59.500 | and I'm in an expensive city.
00:54:01.300 | I live in New York City.
00:54:02.300 | Now I'm in San Francisco.
00:54:03.700 | So when I write these figures, sometimes people are like, "Are you kidding me?
00:54:07.500 | Those are ridiculous figures, ridiculous income levels."
00:54:10.620 | And I'm saying, "Well, that's just the reality of the income in these areas and
00:54:14.940 | the cost of living is higher than obviously in the Midwest."
00:54:18.580 | So it's hard sometimes when I'm writing or talking.
00:54:22.300 | I don't want to be everything to all people, but I also want to be cognizant that people
00:54:26.260 | have different realities.
00:54:27.740 | So hopefully listeners can realize that.
00:54:31.140 | We all are in our little bubbles, but it's really fun to learn about people doing different
00:54:36.980 | things.
00:54:37.980 | >> Absolutely.
00:54:38.980 | Yeah.
00:54:39.980 | So Charlie, if people want to subscribe to your YouTube channel and listen to your stuff,
00:54:45.340 | where can they find you?
00:54:47.900 | >> You can find me on most online stuff.
00:54:50.080 | So my YouTube and Instagram and Facebook are all charliealbrightpianist.
00:54:56.460 | My albums and stuff are I think somewhere on there and then there's also Apple Music
00:55:00.480 | and Spotify, all that good stuff.
00:55:02.260 | And then my website's just my name, charliealbright.com.
00:55:05.180 | And then that's where all the upcoming concert touring info is and stuff.
00:55:11.300 | So yeah, so you can check me out online or if I'm in their area, they can come see a
00:55:16.100 | show and say, "Hey, I heard you're on with Sam Dogan on Financial Samurai.
00:55:20.260 | That'd be awesome."
00:55:21.260 | Meeting you was so tremendous too.
00:55:23.980 | I've been a fan of yours for what, over a decade or something?
00:55:28.700 | And finally getting to know you and meeting you and all that stuff has been just awesome.
00:55:32.940 | >> No, it's really great.
00:55:35.020 | And your concert, your performance was the most entertaining concert I've ever seen really
00:55:40.340 | because of you just stopping and showing to the audience that you're a real person with
00:55:45.900 | a personality and you're telling a story and interacting.
00:55:50.100 | I've never seen a concert like that before.
00:55:52.700 | Maybe it's because I'm not an experienced concert goer, but I've seen enough to say
00:55:58.120 | that it was truly entertaining.
00:56:00.140 | I hope you do more of that.
00:56:02.020 | >> I try.
00:56:03.020 | I try.
00:56:04.020 | There's a thing called classical music is dying and that's the best thing for classical
00:56:07.860 | music.
00:56:08.860 | It was a long time ago.
00:56:10.540 | It was on CNN and the first classical was in quotes.
00:56:14.540 | My point was the classical rules of classical music are dying.
00:56:18.940 | No talking at all.
00:56:20.980 | If someone coughs, you send them a laser eyes and shut the concert down.
00:56:25.820 | This kind of full of themselves, uppity kind of idea of classical music is dumb, I think.
00:56:33.940 | Talking and interacting and just making it low key.
00:56:37.180 | It's not me playing and people listening.
00:56:39.620 | We're all sharing an experience together.
00:56:41.380 | We're all having fun.
00:56:42.380 | >> Interactive.
00:56:43.380 | >> I think that's important.
00:56:44.380 | >> Oh, it's so important.
00:56:45.900 | Just to learn about the piece and then hear it is huge.
00:56:51.540 | So keep it up.
00:56:53.060 | I hope other musicians who are listening keep that interaction up as well because it's been
00:56:58.340 | wonderful.
00:56:59.340 | I'm going to link to all the stuff you said in the show notes.
00:57:01.900 | And Charlie, thanks again for your time.
00:57:03.700 | It's been great talking to you.
00:57:04.700 | >> All right.
00:57:05.700 | Thanks again, Sam.
00:57:06.700 | >> All right.
00:57:07.700 | Bye-bye.
00:57:08.700 | >> Bye.
00:57:08.700 | [ Silence ]