Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset

00:00:00.000 | >> When we go to the dojos there,

00:00:01.680 | we all get thrown by people that never come out to be world champions.

00:00:06.000 | They're just in the mix or they're going through three years of university,

00:00:09.520 | and then they go, we had a guy that came in.

00:00:14.720 | He was business guy, he came in with his suitcase and his tie up like that,

00:00:18.440 | and he's in his lunch hour.

00:00:20.480 | He's in his lunch hour, so we've got to be quick.

00:00:22.840 | >> Yeah.

00:00:23.760 | >> So he comes in and he goes through,

00:00:26.120 | he's working his way through the whole of the British team.

00:00:29.000 | We're all lined up, right?

00:00:30.680 | Ten minutes later, he's just tying his tie up like that,

00:00:34.760 | and back to work like that.

00:00:37.000 | Imagine him sitting behind his desk in his computer.

00:00:39.660 | >> Yeah.

00:00:40.680 | >> I'm glad he didn't get out.

00:00:43.200 | >> Who do you think wins, Yamashita?

00:00:46.120 | >> I think Yamashita, but-

00:00:47.920 | >> Wait. Do you think Yamashita will be steady in there?

00:00:51.200 | >> I think so.

00:00:52.400 | >> Strong words. The following is a conversation with Neil Adams,

00:01:01.400 | a legend in the sport of Judo.

00:01:03.860 | He is a world champion,

00:01:05.800 | two-time Olympic silver medalist,

00:01:07.720 | five-time European champion,

00:01:09.720 | and often referred to as the voice of Judo.

00:01:13.320 | Commentating all the major events,

00:01:15.720 | world championships, and Olympic games.

00:01:17.960 | Highlighting the drama, the triumph,

00:01:20.220 | the artistry of the sport of Judo.

00:01:22.560 | Making fans like me feel the biggest wins,

00:01:25.800 | the biggest losses, the surprise turns of fortune,

00:01:29.080 | the dominance of champions coming to an end,

00:01:31.360 | and new champions made.

00:01:33.600 | Always speaking from the heart.

00:01:36.720 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:01:39.200 | To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

00:01:42.320 | Now, dear friends, here's Neil Adams.

00:01:46.480 | You are a five-time European champion, world champion,

00:01:50.460 | two-time Olympic silver medalist.

00:01:52.900 | Let's first go to the 1980 Olympics.

00:01:56.300 | Where was your mind?

00:01:57.920 | What was your preparation like?

00:01:59.060 | What was your strategy leading into that Olympics?

00:02:01.740 | >> That was my first Olympic games.

00:02:04.620 | My preparation was a little bit different to how it

00:02:08.340 | was the '84 and the '88 Olympic games.

00:02:12.620 | I'd done part of the preparation as well for '76 Olympic games.

00:02:17.460 | I wasn't quite old enough for those,

00:02:19.440 | but I was first reserve.

00:02:21.100 | In 1980, I'd had four years build up,

00:02:25.220 | and I was hungry,

00:02:27.700 | and I was one of these young athletes,

00:02:30.860 | and I see them so often now that was developing and full of,

00:02:35.940 | I won't say I was full of myself,

00:02:37.480 | but I was certainly confident of my ability,

00:02:40.380 | and I wanted to conquer the world.

00:02:42.420 | I'd had a couple of really tight matches

00:02:46.300 | with the current Olympic world champion.

00:02:48.580 | I knew that there was possibility that I could get there for the '80 Olympics.

00:02:54.040 | Building up to the '80 Olympics was quite

00:02:57.840 | interesting because I was coming through the weights,

00:03:01.340 | and I was halfway in between the 71 kilos weight category,

00:03:06.420 | and the higher weight category of 78 kilograms.

00:03:11.260 | I'd got third place at the '79 World Championships,

00:03:16.580 | the weight below.

00:03:18.260 | For the whole year at the higher weight category,

00:03:22.500 | didn't want to lose a contest,

00:03:24.100 | so I'd beaten everybody in the world.

00:03:26.540 | Then I had to make decision as to whether to

00:03:29.600 | drop to the weight below because I was seeded in the weight below.

00:03:33.860 | It was a different seeding then.

00:03:36.320 | So I decided to drop into the weight below because I was seeded in the top four,

00:03:42.220 | and as it happens,

00:03:45.520 | I think it was probably the worst decision I made.

00:03:48.140 | Well, simply because it was

00:03:51.660 | the only contest that I lost was the final of the Olympic Games in that year.

00:03:55.860 | >> So you're a young kid,

00:03:57.780 | what, 1920 at that time,

00:04:00.140 | full of confidence, vigor.

00:04:02.340 | The decision to cut weight,

00:04:04.100 | how hard was it for you to cut weight to the 71 kg division?

00:04:08.140 | >> I've got to say that it was the hardest because as I was going up,

00:04:12.580 | I was, it was 73,

00:04:14.780 | then it was 74 kilos,

00:04:16.600 | 75, so I was moving through the weight category.

00:04:19.540 | It wasn't like I was stuck in the middle and then I dropped the old time to compete.

00:04:24.340 | It was literally going up in weight by a kilo every month.

00:04:30.300 | Then by the time I came to a month or two before the Olympics,

00:04:34.560 | it was really hard.

00:04:36.460 | Fought the European Championships at the higher weight category and won that.

00:04:40.620 | So everybody that was on the Olympic rostrum at

00:04:45.860 | the Olympic Games was on my rostrum at the European Championships.

00:04:52.220 | So was it a mistake?

00:04:54.900 | Yeah, because I didn't have my diet sorted out,

00:04:57.380 | my nutrition was appalling.

00:04:59.540 | It wasn't as readily available as it is now for the nutrition.

00:05:05.980 | I would say that if anything lost me that final,

00:05:11.580 | other than the fact that I was fighting somebody who was terrific.

00:05:14.820 | He was an excellent, brilliant athlete.

00:05:17.860 | But it definitely didn't help that my nutrition was not very good.

00:05:22.700 | >> So you lost to Ezio Gama.

00:05:25.140 | There's probably a lot that we could say about that particular match.

00:05:29.820 | Maybe let's zoom in. What were your strengths and

00:05:32.980 | weaknesses judo-wise in that Olympics?

00:05:36.180 | You said you haven't really lost a match,

00:05:37.820 | you won the European Championship leading into it.

00:05:40.060 | But if you had weak spots,

00:05:42.400 | okay, you already said diet,

00:05:43.880 | but specifically on the mat in terms of judo.

00:05:46.700 | >> I think that none of the fights lasted time going into the final.

00:05:52.380 | So I won fairly quickly and every match by Ippon way before time.

00:05:58.020 | >> Do you remember how you won the match?

00:06:00.180 | >> I won them by throw,

00:06:01.300 | a couple of throws for Ippon and then arm lock for Ippon.

00:06:05.900 | Semi-final was an arm lock against the East German Kruger.

00:06:10.820 | I was flying through.

00:06:13.460 | >> What were the throws? Do you remember?

00:06:15.460 | >> Tai otoshi, uchimata,

00:06:17.380 | my favorite Toku was my favorite throws.

00:06:22.660 | Then jujikotami as well,

00:06:25.700 | which was a jujikotami roll against an East German who I'd beaten before,

00:06:31.060 | but always had a really tough match,

00:06:32.980 | but I managed to beat him well.

00:06:34.620 | >> So you had a beautiful exhibition of

00:06:36.580 | Japanese type judo in the first two matches.

00:06:39.380 | >> Yeah.

00:06:39.500 | >> You threw people and then you also did the nawaza,

00:06:41.940 | you on-barred a person.

00:06:43.780 | Great. So you're going into the final.

00:06:46.060 | What are the weaknesses going into the final against the Italian?

00:06:49.220 | >> Like I say, taking nothing away from him as a great athlete and

00:06:52.780 | a brilliant judo man and left,

00:06:56.620 | which wasn't good for me.

00:06:57.820 | That was definite no,

00:06:59.620 | because I hated fighting lefties, still do.

00:07:02.460 | But I'll tell you why in a minute.

00:07:04.780 | >> Great.

00:07:05.780 | >> It's one of those. But I think as I went through the contest,

00:07:11.540 | we had an eight-hour break from the semi-final to the final.

00:07:15.660 | They took us back to the Olympic Village.

00:07:17.660 | Then we had to come back in and then we had to start a warm-up again.

00:07:21.620 | I lost my momentum.

00:07:23.260 | I had to start again. I didn't.

00:07:25.780 | I just didn't. I had a job to get going.

00:07:27.980 | I got halfway through,

00:07:29.180 | started to rescue a dying match and I was one step,

00:07:33.700 | half a step behind all the way through.

00:07:36.620 | So never really got into it.

00:07:38.860 | >> So why do you hate fighting lefties?

00:07:41.580 | Lefties are, we should say,

00:07:43.340 | over-represented in terms of the higher ranks of judo.

00:07:48.660 | I don't know why that is.

00:07:50.340 | >> Well, the thing is about a lefty is a lefty will

00:07:53.740 | have more opportunity to fight right-handers.

00:07:58.260 | Because 70 percent of the population are right-handers,

00:08:02.700 | 30 percent left, so they get to fight more right-handers.

00:08:08.140 | It's just a fact that happens.

00:08:11.380 | So the thing that they hate is fighting left against left.

00:08:14.780 | They don't like it left against left.

00:08:18.260 | Whereas a right-hander will go right against right.

00:08:21.500 | But the opposite is awkward for me

00:08:26.780 | because just simply I like to go onto

00:08:28.980 | the sleeve and then I like to dominate the grips.

00:08:32.260 | But the actual angle of the opponent wasn't what I wanted.

00:08:38.420 | So I had to work hard, really hard against it.

00:08:41.020 | >> What happened in that match?

00:08:43.140 | >> It was a split decision in the end.

00:08:46.300 | So to lose an Olympic final on a split decision is pretty,

00:08:51.340 | it's something that's still on my mind.

00:08:54.860 | I think that it's a strange one because I can still wake

00:08:59.260 | up that one and four years later at the Olympics because I was

00:09:03.820 | silver medalist at the Olympics four years later as well.

00:09:08.140 | Yeah, it still haunts me.

00:09:10.140 | >> Do you sometimes wake up and think like,

00:09:13.040 | "Man, I should have eaten better."

00:09:14.740 | >> Yeah.

00:09:15.420 | >> Or maybe like a specific grip,

00:09:17.380 | that you're like, "I shouldn't have taken that grip."

00:09:19.500 | >> I do. I mean,

00:09:20.820 | the diet side of it,

00:09:22.380 | it's difficult to really admit that, isn't it?

00:09:26.740 | That you went to an Olympic games and

00:09:29.860 | the one thing that you really sucked at,

00:09:32.500 | was one of the most important things now at world level sport,

00:09:38.300 | where you've got the nutrition, we've got it.

00:09:41.140 | You would think that most people have got it sorted,

00:09:43.500 | but there's still people making mistakes.

00:09:45.140 | There's still people that haven't got it totally sorted.

00:09:48.020 | >> Then there's people like Travis Stevens,

00:09:50.480 | who I think doesn't care.

00:09:53.460 | He'll just have atrocious nutrition and he just makes it work.

00:09:57.500 | I think the way he spoke about it is,

00:10:00.020 | you can't always control nutrition,

00:10:02.580 | so it's best to get good at having crappy nutrition.

00:10:05.940 | >> It's a good way of looking at it. Maybe that's what I did.

00:10:09.340 | [LAUGHTER]

00:10:11.220 | >> Exactly. Do you remember what you were eating?

00:10:13.300 | We're talking about like candy or?

00:10:15.580 | >> Yeah. Well, I got a sweet tooth,

00:10:17.300 | but it wasn't really.

00:10:19.300 | I mean, I didn't have a lot of money at that particular time either.

00:10:22.900 | The diet wasn't steak and good nutritional salads and things like that.

00:10:30.380 | I did what I thought was best without proper advice.

00:10:34.620 | The crazy thing is that I had such good advice as well.

00:10:38.380 | When it came to fitness training and things like that,

00:10:41.580 | we're quite ahead of our time and we really had

00:10:44.220 | it nailed as far as the conditioning was concerned.

00:10:47.900 | The Judo training as well was

00:10:49.900 | a way in advance because I was a good trainer and I trained more than most.

00:10:55.540 | I can honestly say that.

00:10:57.820 | It probably got me away with a lot.

00:11:01.260 | >> Where was your mind for mental preparation?

00:11:04.300 | Going into that Olympics,

00:11:06.020 | you said you were confident,

00:11:07.460 | but is there some preparation aspect behind that confidence?

00:11:11.060 | >> I think in the early days,

00:11:12.820 | I didn't think I was going to lose.

00:11:15.580 | I never thought it was possible to lose.

00:11:18.300 | I think that I went into every contest expecting to win.

00:11:22.660 | When it didn't quite go my way,

00:11:25.100 | I didn't lose that many contests.

00:11:26.620 | The only ones I lost were in

00:11:28.540 | the final of the World Championships or in the final of the Olympic Games.

00:11:31.820 | I didn't lose that many.

00:11:33.060 | I never lost a European title.

00:11:34.780 | I had seven golds at the European Championships,

00:11:37.900 | five seniors, two juniors, and 20s.

00:11:41.540 | I never lost the final.

00:11:44.140 | Then I only lost two on a split decision.

00:11:47.340 | I didn't lose that many.

00:11:49.780 | My attitude was that I wasn't going to lose and I couldn't lose.

00:11:54.260 | I was always surprised when something happened.

00:12:00.820 | >> In Neil Adams, A Life in Judo,

00:12:04.100 | written in 1986, you wrote,

00:12:07.060 | "Ever since I can remember,

00:12:08.780 | I have wanted to win.

00:12:10.500 | It wasn't the ordinary feeling that children have when they take part in

00:12:13.940 | their first primary school sack race on a grass track or

00:12:17.860 | even the keen determination of a young swimmer prepared to train early in

00:12:21.500 | the cold winter mornings in order to make it into the countryside.

00:12:26.260 | With me, the desire to win was and still is

00:12:30.060 | as much a part of me as my arms and legs.

00:12:34.260 | In other words, it wasn't something I learned as I grew older,

00:12:37.500 | but rather it was deeply rooted in me.

00:12:40.220 | Perhaps this competitive instinct is the greatest difference between

00:12:43.740 | my public image and the view from the inside."

00:12:47.620 | So people see the kindness,

00:12:50.060 | the warmth you have,

00:12:51.660 | the charisma, the excitement,

00:12:53.860 | but there's this big drive to win inside you.

00:12:58.340 | So what's behind that?

00:13:00.340 | Can you just speak to that drive to win and how that contributed to your-

00:13:05.620 | >> When I look back now-

00:13:08.020 | >> That's a lot of years ago, we should say.

00:13:09.860 | >> It is a lot of years ago.

00:13:11.100 | >> Is that true or were you just being poetic?

00:13:12.180 | >> It's not far off.

00:13:13.460 | >> Okay.

00:13:13.980 | >> When I think about it now,

00:13:16.620 | because I'd like to think that I'm a different person now,

00:13:20.260 | and since I've calmed down,

00:13:22.980 | I see athletes now and I see them,

00:13:26.940 | they're arrogance, they're walking, it's a strut.

00:13:33.140 | It's a confidence, isn't it?

00:13:36.140 | As we're older and as I've become older,

00:13:39.460 | I've calmed down.

00:13:41.660 | But it doesn't matter what I'm doing,

00:13:44.620 | it's still that will to win.

00:13:47.260 | I'm much better at masking it now if I don't,

00:13:51.100 | but it still bothers me as much.

00:13:53.820 | >> You're talking about, I don't know,

00:13:55.540 | even just stupid silly things like a game of pool,

00:13:59.180 | or something like this, or just anything.

00:14:00.820 | >> Yeah, I'm still trying to win.

00:14:02.980 | My son, he loves to play me at bowls because I'm useless,

00:14:09.380 | and I just can't throw a straight ball.

00:14:12.260 | He loves playing me at that,

00:14:14.020 | but it bugs me that I'm not better.

00:14:17.100 | There are certain things that I do,

00:14:19.620 | it really bugs me when I'm not good at it.

00:14:22.740 | I guess it's one of the reasons that,

00:14:25.900 | long after I'd finished competition, Judo,

00:14:29.820 | people still want to train with you.

00:14:32.380 | Even at an older age,

00:14:36.020 | even now, if I do a seminar or do you want to still go?

00:14:42.700 | Can I feel it? One of the things that's in me

00:14:47.860 | is that all the way up to 40 years of age.

00:14:51.540 | From 30 when I finished competition up to 40,

00:14:55.060 | I could still train with the best,

00:14:57.940 | and I could still go with anybody.

00:15:00.260 | Then when 40 hit,

00:15:02.060 | things started to fall off a little bit.

00:15:04.660 | I used to get either my hips or my legs and my knees.

00:15:09.060 | I realized that I had to pick my practices,

00:15:11.820 | and that rankled as well,

00:15:13.620 | and I had to then just calm it down a little bit.

00:15:16.180 | Otherwise, I was going to be injured,

00:15:17.380 | and it's not a good thing when you get an older

00:15:21.620 | and you've still got the same competitive mind.

00:15:25.220 | But things change.

00:15:26.620 | >> So still there, you get on the mat,

00:15:29.380 | probably even now, you get on the mat with the world champion,

00:15:32.860 | you're still the current world champion.

00:15:35.020 | There's still a little part of you,

00:15:36.300 | could I still toss this guy?

00:15:38.340 | Kids these days are soft.

00:15:40.340 | >> I did. Well, some of these athletes,

00:15:43.380 | I give you a prime example, is Ilias Iliadis.

00:15:48.180 | He is a monster.

00:15:51.140 | You just, of course,

00:15:53.580 | you couldn't, because just at 60 something, you couldn't.

00:15:58.700 | But you like to think that you could.

00:16:00.780 | >> You could, you never know, you got to find out.

00:16:03.180 | >> You know what you would do?

00:16:04.780 | What you can do is you can cause them problems,

00:16:08.260 | and they feel it immediately,

00:16:09.980 | but you'd last a minute.

00:16:11.500 | >> So you've trained with Ilias Iliadis.

00:16:13.180 | >> I've gotten a chance to train with him as well.

00:16:14.940 | He's a really nice guy, really great guy.

00:16:17.020 | >> He trained with me. We were training together.

00:16:19.740 | Every hotel that we used to go into,

00:16:21.700 | we'd end up in the gym together and we'd train.

00:16:24.340 | This one time he was in there and he just wanted

00:16:26.700 | somebody to grab and grip hold of him.

00:16:29.900 | So we ended up doing this grappling in the middle.

00:16:32.980 | The people doing weight training and the different things,

00:16:36.380 | watching these two madmen doing,

00:16:38.620 | I'm glad we weren't on a mat at that particular time.

00:16:41.140 | >> Yeah.

00:16:42.820 | >> But good fun.

00:16:43.620 | >> What do you think about that guy?

00:16:44.740 | He, like you, achieved a lot of success when he was young.

00:16:49.060 | >> 17. You imagine that?

00:16:50.500 | 17, 18 years of age,

00:16:52.380 | and he's able to compete with the men.

00:16:55.220 | There's not many men can do that,

00:16:57.820 | and it doesn't happen very often.

00:17:00.060 | It happens later with the men.

00:17:01.980 | Often, they're not physically as developed as they.

00:17:05.940 | So for me, for example,

00:17:08.060 | I fought Nev Zorov, who was World and Olympic champion.

00:17:11.420 | He was the current World and Olympic champion.

00:17:13.500 | They sent me to the European Championships senior at 17.

00:17:18.620 | That doesn't happen very often,

00:17:21.180 | and I pulled Nev Zorov.

00:17:23.060 | So I fought Nev Zorov and I had him really worried,

00:17:27.540 | because he expected without a doubt to come out,

00:17:31.660 | throw this kid and junior.

00:17:33.660 | >> He was thick and shredded like he's a man.

00:17:36.140 | >> He was shredded.

00:17:37.420 | There's a picture of him in his judogi,

00:17:40.100 | and his judogi is just cut,

00:17:42.660 | and he looks the business.

00:17:44.660 | There's me in this baggy.

00:17:47.460 | Skinny kid inside this baggy thing.

00:17:51.980 | The thing was, is that the more he tried,

00:17:55.180 | and the harder he tried,

00:17:56.380 | and the more he panicked,

00:17:57.980 | the further it went away from him.

00:18:00.940 | Of course, he got the decision at the end,

00:18:05.060 | and deservedly, but I worried him.

00:18:08.860 | For me, that was a massive step forward,

00:18:12.860 | because a year later,

00:18:15.420 | I was starting to fill out,

00:18:18.620 | and two years later,

00:18:20.740 | I was competing for the Olympic title.

00:18:23.580 | >> I don't know if I remember,

00:18:25.100 | but Elias Eliadis is interesting,

00:18:27.700 | because even at 17,

00:18:29.620 | I feel like he was doing big throws,

00:18:31.460 | like literally lifting them with his hands.

00:18:34.180 | >> Just rips them out of the ground.

00:18:35.740 | I was saying to Nikki, my wife,

00:18:38.500 | and she said, "What would you do now,

00:18:42.820 | that was different than the way you did then?"

00:18:45.940 | I never had any pickups.

00:18:48.500 | That's not what we did.

00:18:50.540 | But you have a look at the young Ukraines,

00:18:54.260 | or the young Russians,

00:18:55.980 | or the young Eastern Bloc Mongolians,

00:19:00.020 | and they're ripping people out the ground.

00:19:01.940 | It's just different style of judo,

00:19:03.740 | and it just looks different.

00:19:06.340 | But now they're starting to do

00:19:07.980 | traditional style judo as well.

00:19:09.900 | >> So can you speak to that,

00:19:10.740 | what are the different styles of judo?

00:19:12.540 | So for you, you mentioned Uchimaru, Taira Toshi,

00:19:15.380 | these, how would you describe them?

00:19:18.580 | They're like these effortless,

00:19:20.340 | less lifting off the ground,

00:19:22.260 | and power, and strength, and more timing,

00:19:25.940 | and position, movement, momentum,

00:19:28.500 | all this kind of stuff.

00:19:29.660 | That's more traditionally associated with Japanese judo.

00:19:32.620 | 'Cause for Japanese judo, the traditional judo,

00:19:36.740 | you're supposed to throw people

00:19:38.220 | in a big way without much effort.

00:19:40.500 | >> And of course, 1990 we saw the introduction

00:19:44.980 | of all these Eastern Bloc countries.

00:19:47.820 | There were so many more.

00:19:50.820 | I mean, it was Soviet Union when I was competing,

00:19:53.380 | and then of course in 1990, everything changed.

00:19:56.500 | And then there were so many more of them out there,

00:19:59.060 | different countries,

00:20:00.140 | that their wrestling styles were introduced into judo.

00:20:05.140 | Put a jacket on them and let's get into judo.

00:20:08.340 | So judo kind of changed shape.

00:20:10.460 | It changed shape from this upright standing,

00:20:15.300 | and having to know the technicalities

00:20:18.420 | of how to get a body that's weighing 40,

00:20:22.500 | 14 stone or whatever it is up into the air,

00:20:27.380 | and using the momentum, and the balance,

00:20:29.780 | and the direction, and the skill to do that,

00:20:33.380 | and knowing how to do it, and how to use movement.

00:20:36.460 | And then you get the wrestlers,

00:20:38.540 | and the leg picks, and the double legs,

00:20:41.180 | single legs, double legs, and it kind of,

00:20:44.420 | by 1995, judo was bent over.

00:20:49.060 | And so it was the IOC that went to IJF,

00:20:53.420 | International Judo Federation,

00:20:55.380 | and they said, you gotta change this,

00:20:57.740 | or we're just gonna have one wrestling style.

00:21:00.060 | It looks like wrestling with judo,

00:21:01.820 | with judo jackets on.

00:21:03.660 | So you either change it,

00:21:04.900 | or we're gonna take one of you out.

00:21:07.020 | - By the way, we should sort of clarify,

00:21:08.300 | when we say people are bent over,

00:21:09.340 | that's usually how you see freestyle wrestling.

00:21:11.780 | Wrestlers are more bent over

00:21:13.020 | to defend the legs and so on.

00:21:14.540 | And traditional judo, people are more standing up

00:21:16.940 | because that's the position

00:21:18.500 | for which you can do the big throws

00:21:19.700 | and all that kind of stuff.

00:21:20.940 | But I think the other case to make

00:21:24.020 | for banning leg grabs is,

00:21:26.500 | a lot of people are using it for stalling

00:21:28.060 | and not for beautiful big throws

00:21:29.700 | and all that kind of stuff.

00:21:30.860 | So it's not just not to make it different from wrestling.

00:21:34.580 | It's also like you want to maximize

00:21:37.140 | the amount of epic throws

00:21:40.100 | and dynamic judo and exciting stuff to watch, right?

00:21:44.860 | - Win by judo, not by wrestling.

00:21:46.940 | And I think that the ones that were shouting about it

00:21:50.860 | were the wrestlers, right?

00:21:51.820 | Because they like to compete with both.

00:21:54.020 | They want to do both.

00:21:55.220 | They want to do their wrestling matches

00:21:57.420 | and then come into judo.

00:21:59.340 | So basically, I mean, what we've said is,

00:22:03.620 | they learn to do judo

00:22:04.940 | and there's nothing stopping you then from doing both, right?

00:22:07.820 | But not from the other way around, all right?

00:22:10.260 | So rules always dictate development.

00:22:13.580 | They'll always dictate which direction it goes.

00:22:16.900 | So if you introduce a rule that states

00:22:19.460 | that you cannot dive at the legs and just pick up,

00:22:23.460 | then you'll have to do it standing up.

00:22:26.900 | And also it increases the possibility of defense

00:22:30.340 | with the hips because actually good defense judo wise,

00:22:34.820 | standing up is with the hips

00:22:36.780 | as opposed to sticking your arms out

00:22:39.820 | and then sticking your backsides out there just to defend.

00:22:43.580 | All right, so if you attack me

00:22:44.780 | and I move my body in the wrong place,

00:22:47.820 | so I'm in the wrong place at the right time,

00:22:51.100 | so you don't hit the right target.

00:22:52.660 | And then also I use my hips.

00:22:54.940 | So again, it's a form of judo that was being lost.

00:22:59.940 | So now we've got it back.

00:23:02.220 | - So let's go there.

00:23:03.420 | Let's speak about judo

00:23:05.060 | as if we're talking to a group of five-year-olds.

00:23:09.100 | So what is judo?

00:23:10.540 | What are some defining characteristics of judo as a sport,

00:23:15.020 | as a way, as a martial art, as a way of life,

00:23:17.460 | all that kind of stuff?

00:23:18.420 | - I think when you say it is a way of life,

00:23:21.340 | I mean, I think the great advantage that we have in judo,

00:23:26.340 | my young grandson, so I got two little boys

00:23:32.220 | that are three and a half years of age.

00:23:34.100 | They love going to our dojo.

00:23:35.620 | They love it.

00:23:36.660 | So dojo was the first word that they used.

00:23:39.460 | It was one of the first.

00:23:40.740 | So when they come to see us,

00:23:42.580 | to see my wife and I, it's like dojo.

00:23:46.380 | It's not grandma, granddad, it's a dojo.

00:23:49.580 | So dojo, they take their shoes off going into the dojo.

00:23:54.580 | So they have respect for where they're at.

00:23:56.980 | And I think it has that kind of feeling

00:24:00.060 | that like I tried to build my dojo

00:24:03.100 | with a feeling of reverence.

00:24:05.900 | It's kind of almost peaceful.

00:24:07.420 | So if I'm not religious, I'm not a religious person,

00:24:10.500 | but I like going to old churches

00:24:11.900 | because when I go into an old church,

00:24:14.020 | doesn't matter what the religion within the church,

00:24:16.420 | but there's a reverence in there.

00:24:18.980 | - Reverence is a good word.

00:24:20.660 | It feels like a really special place.

00:24:22.660 | No matter which dojo you go to,

00:24:25.180 | it's just you bow and there's a calmness

00:24:28.700 | before the storm of battle or whatever it is.

00:24:31.140 | (laughs)

00:24:32.140 | - And respect, you know?

00:24:32.980 | - Yeah, respect.

00:24:33.820 | - I mean, look at the respect.

00:24:34.860 | We were just talking about it just before we came on air.

00:24:38.060 | We were just saying that we very, very seldom

00:24:41.660 | do we have a situation where there is animosity

00:24:46.660 | other than them fighting, you know?

00:24:48.700 | So I'm not saying that they don't fight each other

00:24:51.060 | because sometimes it does turn into a brawl.

00:24:54.060 | And at the end, two people bow off and show their respect.

00:24:59.060 | You know, and one of the things that, you know,

00:25:02.940 | like so a champion, I see people winning events

00:25:06.620 | and they're good judoka or they're excellent.

00:25:10.020 | They win world championships,

00:25:11.780 | might even win the Olympic Games.

00:25:13.300 | But a great champion for me is somebody who treats,

00:25:18.300 | who does the right thing when they lose, you know?

00:25:22.140 | So when you see them lose,

00:25:24.260 | that's when you see the true them, you know?

00:25:26.660 | And actually that was one of the biggest things

00:25:28.700 | that I had to really cope with, you know?

00:25:31.260 | So when I lost the Olympic Games in Moscow

00:25:34.220 | and also the one in Los Angeles,

00:25:38.100 | the hardest thing is when the microphone's in there

00:25:41.900 | and you've got to be respectful and nice

00:25:46.540 | and the hardest thing is to smile.

00:25:49.020 | But actually some of the great champions, you know,

00:25:52.460 | they'll go, "That's just one match."

00:25:54.380 | You know, I remember we've got one great champion,

00:25:58.900 | Agbeg Nenu, she's a five-time world champion,

00:26:02.260 | she's an Olympic champion.

00:26:03.420 | She's favorite as well to get this Olympic gold medal.

00:26:07.900 | French.

00:26:09.300 | What a great champion she is, you know,

00:26:11.020 | because she lost one of the matches.

00:26:14.060 | I mean, she'd come back and she'd given birth,

00:26:18.820 | come back after giving birth

00:26:21.340 | and everybody was going, "Well, well, she," you know,

00:26:23.020 | but then she lost one of the matches on the way through

00:26:27.260 | and she said, "Oh, don't be upset.

00:26:29.780 | "You know, it's just one match.

00:26:31.980 | "It's just one contest, you know?

00:26:34.340 | "Next time I'm going to put it right."

00:26:35.660 | And she did put it right and now she's back up there

00:26:38.260 | and she won the world title back.

00:26:41.100 | So, you know, these are great champions for me.

00:26:43.980 | - Yeah, I mean, that's the right way to see it,

00:26:45.380 | but it's also tragic to lose the Olympic Games, you know?

00:26:49.700 | - Twice.

00:26:50.540 | (laughing)

00:26:52.340 | Yes, it is tragic.

00:26:55.380 | And I do have sleepless nights.

00:26:57.740 | - I mean, that's the magic of the Olympic Games.

00:27:00.060 | Anything can happen.

00:27:01.180 | And your 1980 Olympics were very different from the 1984,

00:27:05.980 | but if we just linger on the '80

00:27:08.820 | and just your, when we're talking about

00:27:10.780 | how much you wanted to win,

00:27:14.740 | do you love winning or hate losing more?

00:27:17.780 | - I hate losing more, but I love winning.

00:27:20.660 | When I won the world title a year later

00:27:23.820 | and I had no doubt when I went in that day

00:27:28.380 | that I was going to be world champion.

00:27:30.540 | No doubt.

00:27:31.380 | - So you won the '81 world championship.

00:27:34.820 | - At the higher weight.

00:27:36.220 | - At the higher, the 78.

00:27:38.020 | - Yes.

00:27:38.940 | - KG.

00:27:39.780 | Actually, can we go there?

00:27:42.900 | What was going through your mind?

00:27:45.260 | You ended up armbarring a Japanese fighter.

00:27:50.260 | I talked to Jimmy Pedro, a friend of yours,

00:27:53.180 | somebody who said you were a mentor to him for many years,

00:27:56.460 | and he told me a bunch of different questions to ask you,

00:27:59.340 | but he said that was a really special time.

00:28:01.740 | That was a really special, dominant run you had,

00:28:06.740 | and especially finishing with an armbar

00:28:10.420 | against a Japanese player.

00:28:11.780 | So take me through that.

00:28:13.740 | What do you remember from that?

00:28:15.380 | - I think that it was, so my weight was better.

00:28:18.980 | I didn't have to lose weight.

00:28:20.140 | That was one thing.

00:28:21.100 | So the nutritional side wasn't as important,

00:28:24.340 | but probably it still wasn't as good

00:28:27.340 | as it could be, mind you, in nutrition.

00:28:29.860 | Although it was getting better,

00:28:31.700 | and I was trying to eat the right things at the right time.

00:28:34.980 | But I still trained really well,

00:28:40.260 | and I was so confident going into that world championships

00:28:44.260 | that I could win it.

00:28:46.660 | I had no doubt in my mind that I was gonna win,

00:28:49.260 | but obviously, corner of your mind,

00:28:52.300 | you're thinking just don't make mistakes.

00:28:54.980 | But this is the incredible thing,

00:28:56.820 | is that once you start to ask you,

00:29:00.300 | once I see contests change direction when I'm commentating,

00:29:04.820 | so I can see somebody who's in there

00:29:06.980 | just going forward, just trying to win,

00:29:10.100 | and that's a difference to somebody who's trying not to lose.

00:29:13.700 | And there's two different ways there.

00:29:15.620 | So sometimes when you, so when I was world champion,

00:29:20.140 | then I had a period of time

00:29:21.500 | where every time I stepped out there,

00:29:23.420 | I was really afraid of losing.

00:29:26.820 | And I think that that's what happens

00:29:30.220 | later on in your competitive career.

00:29:33.060 | The great champions managed to come through that.

00:29:35.580 | Teddy Rene is one of those.

00:29:37.180 | He just, he puts it out there, and he keeps beating them,

00:29:41.140 | so they can't take it away from him.

00:29:42.820 | It's fantastic.

00:29:44.540 | - So stepping on the mat every single encounter,

00:29:47.100 | you're trying to win.

00:29:48.260 | You're looking for the grips

00:29:49.620 | and the intention to throw big,

00:29:53.380 | even when you're ahead on points,

00:29:54.820 | all that kind of stuff.

00:29:56.340 | - That's a really good point,

00:29:57.420 | is that if you go ahead in a match

00:30:00.900 | and you look at the clock, it depends when you go ahead.

00:30:03.300 | So sometimes you can go ahead in the first minute

00:30:05.940 | and you've still got three minutes to go.

00:30:07.900 | So I see the ones then that go into, I don't wanna lose,

00:30:11.300 | 'cause they go into defensive mode,

00:30:12.740 | and then sometimes they can lose it on penalties

00:30:15.500 | or something can go wrong,

00:30:16.980 | and the other one comes on strong

00:30:19.060 | and then they can sneak the contest.

00:30:21.780 | And so it's really difficult,

00:30:24.380 | but when I was coaching,

00:30:26.020 | I was trying to always encourage that positive attitude

00:30:30.460 | for the full four minutes, five minutes then.

00:30:33.260 | - I've competed a lot in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu.

00:30:34.900 | I've always hated that part of myself.

00:30:36.580 | When I'm up on points by a lot,

00:30:38.860 | you look at the clock and it's what you do.

00:30:41.340 | When you look at the clock,

00:30:42.500 | it's a minute and a half, you're really tired,

00:30:45.500 | and you kind of quit.

00:30:47.900 | You just defend.

00:30:49.140 | - Yeah.

00:30:49.980 | - And I hated that part about myself.

00:30:52.100 | It's like that--

00:30:52.940 | - You're saying don't do it.

00:30:53.780 | - Yeah, well, as opposed to just go out in Judo,

00:30:57.140 | that's for a big throw, just keep going for the throw.

00:30:59.420 | In Jiu-Jitsu, it's go for the submission.

00:31:02.100 | Like throw caution, like win in the real way

00:31:05.580 | versus on points, and I hated that part of myself.

00:31:08.140 | I mean, mostly underneath that

00:31:10.300 | is cowardice induced by exhaustion.

00:31:13.020 | - Exhaustion's the one, isn't it?

00:31:15.380 | - Yeah.

00:31:16.380 | - But it is, isn't it?

00:31:17.220 | It's a mindset as well.

00:31:18.500 | - Yeah.

00:31:19.340 | - So actually trying to get your mind

00:31:22.100 | positive all the way through.

00:31:24.420 | So I mean, if you listen, when I commentate to Noah,

00:31:27.820 | is I say I hope that they don't change the mindset

00:31:31.380 | and that they keep on,

00:31:32.780 | and they are going forward all the time,

00:31:35.020 | and actually they're then more difficult to catch.

00:31:38.220 | We had one just a couple of weeks ago,

00:31:40.380 | and he lost in the final second of the contest.

00:31:45.420 | Lost the final, he was the only one to score.

00:31:47.460 | He got penalized all the way up.

00:31:50.140 | Two seconds to go and stepped out of the area,

00:31:52.860 | and you know, but he went like that,

00:31:55.260 | thinking the bell was just going,

00:31:57.460 | and the bell went one second after he actually stepped out.

00:32:02.460 | So he got penalized, lost the match,

00:32:04.660 | and lost all of the points for qualification.

00:32:08.340 | So it was, you know, that's paying high price.

00:32:12.380 | That's paying high price.

00:32:14.100 | - Yeah, I mean, there's a thin line

00:32:16.700 | between triumph and tragedy in those competitions,

00:32:21.460 | but especially at the Olympic Games.

00:32:24.140 | So let's just stick on '81 World Championship.

00:32:27.020 | What did it feel like to win that World Championship?

00:32:29.980 | Like, and also getting an armbar as a Japanese player.

00:32:34.460 | Jimmy told me your arms were exhausted.

00:32:36.860 | - Yeah, I mean, you just,

00:32:38.740 | the thing is, is sometimes, you know,

00:32:40.140 | when you're going, when it's competitive as well,

00:32:42.420 | you know, ours is a different intensity to like,

00:32:46.260 | do you just, where you can take time a little bit.

00:32:48.900 | Ours is, bang, it's transitioning from standing down.

00:32:52.660 | You've got 10, 15 seconds to go in there.

00:32:55.460 | You go in a hundred percent.

00:32:56.740 | It's a bit like running, you know, full out for 10 seconds.

00:33:01.340 | Like, and then you've got to decide then,

00:33:04.700 | especially if they're defending it,

00:33:06.580 | whether you let it go,

00:33:08.780 | because when you get up and your forearms are blown,

00:33:11.620 | you know, and you've got lactic acid in there

00:33:13.420 | and you've still got to grip up,

00:33:14.780 | because remember, ours is about gripping as well

00:33:17.260 | on the jacket.

00:33:18.340 | So if you can't grip up,

00:33:19.620 | then you can't gain the advantage,

00:33:21.260 | then they can throw you, you know?

00:33:23.100 | So you have to decide.

00:33:24.540 | So I had a massive attack on him

00:33:28.700 | and we changed directions four or five times

00:33:32.340 | and then I wasn't going to let him go.

00:33:35.180 | But I still, you know, when I was turning him there,

00:33:38.740 | I had to decide, am I going to go all out for this?

00:33:41.860 | And just, or, you know, like,

00:33:43.740 | there has been occasions when I've kind of released it

00:33:47.580 | to just, you know, if I've got a minute to go

00:33:49.860 | and just lock out, yeah.

00:33:52.100 | - So what you're saying on the feet,

00:33:53.540 | there was a change of direction

00:33:54.660 | on all different kinds of attempts

00:33:55.860 | and then you went to the ground and that's,

00:33:57.580 | so what was that?

00:33:58.420 | Do you remember that decision of like,

00:34:00.340 | okay, am I going to finish this?

00:34:01.900 | - Yeah, I knew it.

00:34:02.740 | I just, as soon as I climbed his back

00:34:04.780 | and then I thought he's not going,

00:34:07.460 | he's not going, I'm not going to let him up, you know?

00:34:09.180 | So I was just changing.

00:34:10.540 | - A little voice in your head.

00:34:11.380 | - A little, something in my head was going,

00:34:13.740 | don't, don't, you know, just stick on him.

00:34:15.660 | And then it's always about pressure on the arm

00:34:18.780 | and I just, you know, and of course he was like that,

00:34:22.620 | you know, defending, you know,

00:34:24.620 | he was almost total bridge trying to get out of it.

00:34:27.740 | - Did it start in turtle and then like,

00:34:29.500 | did you flip him?

00:34:30.340 | - It started in turtle because I did an attack,

00:34:32.900 | came back out of the attack

00:34:34.500 | and then he went onto his front

00:34:36.980 | and then I was on his back

00:34:39.620 | and then I started the whole time.

00:34:41.060 | - Start opening and you just went for it?

00:34:42.820 | - Just, I was, it was an automatic transition.

00:34:45.180 | So, I mean, the transitions are what we teach,

00:34:48.540 | you know, because the ones that are quicker down

00:34:50.220 | with the transitions are the ones that catch it.

00:34:52.460 | That's our (indistinct)

00:34:53.460 | You know, our groundwork is the transition

00:34:56.100 | from standing down to ground.

00:34:57.820 | It's very, you know, we don't have a situation

00:35:00.180 | where you can kind of work your way in.

00:35:02.740 | You are in or you're not in, you're standing, you know?

00:35:06.300 | So, you've got to make sure that you're in.

00:35:08.100 | And so, I had, I was just on his back like a leech

00:35:10.980 | and I never let him go.

00:35:12.140 | - So, you see, I mean, yeah.

00:35:14.100 | So, that's where the arm bars,

00:35:15.300 | that's where the attacks on the ground,

00:35:17.140 | which is called Niwaza happens in the transition.

00:35:20.060 | - Yes. - At that level,

00:35:20.940 | at that high world-class level?

00:35:23.860 | - Yeah, I mean, he was no muggy though.

00:35:25.700 | I think he'd just got third place

00:35:27.580 | in the all Japan championships,

00:35:29.540 | which is all weight categories.

00:35:31.380 | So, he wasn't a mug, you know, he was strong

00:35:34.820 | and I'd fought him once before

00:35:36.860 | and I knew he was a lefty as well,

00:35:40.300 | which was really awkward for me.

00:35:42.100 | - Did it feel good?

00:35:43.020 | - Better for me than him.

00:35:44.620 | - Did it?

00:35:45.460 | - It did, it felt amazing, you know,

00:35:47.380 | because it was almost like all these things,

00:35:50.860 | disappointments and everything had kind of come

00:35:54.020 | to this one point where I was at last

00:35:58.460 | kind of champion of the world.

00:36:00.220 | It's everything I said as a kid,

00:36:02.420 | that I had no idea how difficult it was going to be.

00:36:04.540 | You know, so as a kid, as a 14-year-old kid,

00:36:06.700 | I remember saying, "I'm going to be world champion.

00:36:08.860 | "I'm going to be the best in the world."

00:36:10.580 | I had no idea how difficult that was going to be.

00:36:13.380 | - Well, there's wisdom to that, right?

00:36:14.780 | Like there's power in stupidity of youth.

00:36:18.420 | - I like that.

00:36:19.260 | - Right? - Yeah, it is.

00:36:20.220 | - Just like I'm going to be a world champion,

00:36:21.460 | I'm going to win this without knowing how hard it is.

00:36:24.140 | And then once you go after it, you're trapped.

00:36:29.140 | You're going to have to do the work.

00:36:30.340 | - Yeah, well, I mean, you see it a lot with parents as well.

00:36:33.620 | You know, parents, "Our little Johnny is amazing."

00:36:37.340 | And he's this, that, and the other,

00:36:38.340 | and they have no idea what's out there.

00:36:41.380 | I remember the very first time I stepped out, 1974,

00:36:45.700 | into the European cadets.

00:36:48.380 | And I remember that we were fighting.

00:36:52.060 | I'd only ever fought in Great Britain.

00:36:53.900 | I was the top, you know, I was unbeaten in the juniors, kids,

00:36:59.060 | and went out there and there were these

00:37:01.940 | different fighters out there

00:37:04.540 | that were treating me with total disdain.

00:37:07.140 | And I remember thinking, "How dare they?"

00:37:10.300 | You know, and I realized when I came back from that event,

00:37:15.300 | there's other people out there.

00:37:17.300 | There's just a whole, you know,

00:37:18.820 | and there are different levels of, you know,

00:37:20.700 | the majority of people are just not informed

00:37:24.180 | as to what's out there and the different levels

00:37:26.380 | that there are out there.

00:37:27.740 | - Do you remember like a certain opponent

00:37:30.340 | that for the first time you felt like, "Holy shit."

00:37:33.980 | - Yeah.

00:37:34.820 | - There's pop, like somebody's just gripped you up

00:37:36.820 | and you're like, "This is,

00:37:38.460 | there's another level to this game."

00:37:39.940 | - Ed Zio was, Ed Zio was one of them.

00:37:42.900 | And I fought him, you know,

00:37:44.980 | and I beat him in the European championships.

00:37:47.340 | I beat him in, you know, two times

00:37:49.260 | and then lost to him in the Olympic games

00:37:52.180 | two months after I'd beaten him

00:37:53.300 | in the European championship.

00:37:54.860 | - Wow.

00:37:55.700 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:37:57.380 | That made it even more difficult, right?

00:37:59.340 | - That's literally your nemesis there.

00:38:00.220 | - Yeah. - Wow.

00:38:01.460 | - So that made it more difficult.

00:38:03.500 | And so Ed Zio was one and getting hold of,

00:38:08.300 | I remember getting hold of Nishida of Japan

00:38:13.300 | and he had me going up and down

00:38:15.820 | and I just, I thought, "Wow, this guy is amazing."

00:38:20.420 | You know, and I'd never fought,

00:38:22.020 | first time I ever fought Japanese in a major tournament,

00:38:25.180 | you know, and I felt the danger.

00:38:28.340 | I always talk about the danger

00:38:29.780 | when we go out to Japan to train.

00:38:32.300 | I could go probably months without getting thrown

00:38:37.980 | in training here in Europe and I go to Japan

00:38:41.340 | and, you know, everybody's throwing you, you know,

00:38:43.500 | and that's difficult to accept.

00:38:45.980 | And the reason that that kind of danger

00:38:48.180 | and that kind of feeling of danger

00:38:53.260 | is something that puts a real edge on, you know,

00:38:55.940 | and so that was first time when I got hold of Nishida,

00:38:58.620 | I thought, "Oh my God, you know, this guy, you know,

00:39:02.220 | "didn't matter which way he was turning like that,

00:39:04.420 | "he'd be stretched out."

00:39:05.860 | And I thought this, I wanna do this, you know,

00:39:10.300 | and then I ended up fighting him again in Japan.

00:39:13.300 | - So that feeling of danger is really interesting.

00:39:15.500 | It's like I've, you know, did Ran Dory

00:39:19.380 | with a lot of world-class people

00:39:20.620 | from different parts of the world,

00:39:23.060 | including Ilyas Iliadis, and like there's certain part,

00:39:26.740 | like Eastern European Judo,

00:39:29.380 | you feel like you're screwed the whole way through.

00:39:32.540 | Like the gripping, you really feel it in the gripping.

00:39:35.380 | - It's the gripping that does it.

00:39:36.540 | - But with Japanese, like really good Japanese-style Jidoka,

00:39:41.420 | you don't, it's like, it's a terrifying calmness,

00:39:45.180 | or at least the experiences I've had,

00:39:47.420 | you don't really feel it in the gripping.

00:39:49.140 | You just feel like anywhere you step, you're getting thrown.

00:39:52.300 | - It's a different.

00:39:53.380 | - It's a different thing, isn't it?

00:39:54.420 | - It's a different thing.

00:39:55.260 | - So, I mean, mine was kind of a mixture.

00:39:57.060 | I liked it to be a mixture because there was,

00:39:59.780 | the gripping is definitely the key point.

00:40:03.740 | So if you get a high-level guys that are gripping up,

00:40:06.940 | and I always used to put this to the referees

00:40:09.180 | when we were doing referee seminars

00:40:12.180 | when we first started them.

00:40:13.900 | And I'd say, how many, because like they would referee

00:40:18.100 | to their understanding of the match.

00:40:20.940 | So they were penalizing for certain grips that were,

00:40:23.780 | and actually, so as an ex-athlete, high-level,

00:40:28.780 | I would say, have you ever gripped up with high-level?

00:40:33.100 | All right, because if you haven't, you need to do it,

00:40:36.340 | because then you will understand why

00:40:38.540 | they do certain things with the grips,

00:40:40.180 | because these guys are like, when somebody grips you

00:40:44.140 | and you think, you know you're gonna go,

00:40:46.300 | when Iliadis puts his arm over your back, all right,

00:40:49.140 | and you know you're gonna go up and over.

00:40:51.660 | You know you're gonna go over, you know, that's it.

00:40:53.580 | - It's a cool feeling.

00:40:55.260 | It's like whenever-- - Not for me.

00:40:56.580 | - I understand, but it's like, I mean, 'cause it's not,

00:41:00.300 | it feels way more powerful than it should.

00:41:04.540 | - Yeah. - It's weird.

00:41:05.620 | I don't know, you want to attribute it to strength

00:41:08.260 | and all that kind of stuff.

00:41:09.260 | I mean, people say you have like immense upper body strength,

00:41:12.340 | but it's probably something else.

00:41:14.340 | It's like technique, it's some kind of weird--

00:41:16.380 | - It's a mix of everything.

00:41:17.500 | - Just like something hardened through lots of battles

00:41:21.220 | and Randori and that kind of stuff.

00:41:22.820 | - Yeah. - But it's cool

00:41:23.660 | that humans are able to generate that kind of power.

00:41:26.300 | It's cool.

00:41:27.140 | - When I was, '84 Olympics,

00:41:29.300 | but I'm just gonna go there now just quickly.

00:41:32.460 | But there was, we had a freestyle wrestler.

00:41:36.820 | He's American actually, but he had the English nationality.

00:41:41.180 | So he competed for Noel Loban, his name is,

00:41:44.780 | and he competed for Great Britain.

00:41:46.420 | He got third place at the Olympics in '84,

00:41:50.020 | but he was training.

00:41:51.700 | We were training at Budokai and he was training.

00:41:54.820 | He came to do some judo and put jacket on.

00:41:58.300 | And of course he was training with some of the lower levels

00:42:00.540 | and he was really handling himself well.

00:42:04.020 | And then he said, "I need to feel."

00:42:06.220 | When we did Randori, so he did some Randori with me

00:42:12.820 | and I immediately thought, I gotta catch it.

00:42:16.260 | I gotta stop single leg and double leg

00:42:18.540 | 'cause he was really quick, right?

00:42:20.260 | So strong as well, 90 something kilos.

00:42:23.340 | He was like, you know, he's a big guy.

00:42:25.900 | So I caught his sleeve, immediately caught

00:42:28.820 | and controlled him and then he couldn't start, right?

00:42:32.380 | So he said, "I needed to feel the difference."

00:42:35.580 | So then I thought, I better reciprocate this.

00:42:40.340 | So I said, well, you know, so we did the Randori

00:42:43.060 | and I threw him a couple of times.

00:42:44.300 | He said, "I'm really glad we did that."

00:42:46.180 | So then I said, "I need to feel the difference as well."

00:42:48.540 | So we take the jackets off.

00:42:49.860 | So we took the jackets off and he was a nightmare.

00:42:53.140 | This guy was a nightmare and like a monster,

00:42:55.980 | you know, he was like single legging me

00:42:58.500 | and you know, it was just totally different, you know?

00:43:00.700 | So it was like the jacket makes a massive difference,

00:43:05.700 | huge difference to something, you know,

00:43:08.980 | and people think it's just a jacket that we're wearing,

00:43:12.900 | but it isn't, it's our only tool.

00:43:16.140 | - Excellent.

00:43:16.980 | - Yeah, and it's control.

00:43:18.380 | I mean, it's a way of establishing control over another body

00:43:22.500 | and it's a whole art form and a science.

00:43:24.660 | And I don't even know if you understand it really,

00:43:27.060 | you understand it sort of subconsciously through time.

00:43:31.780 | - Yeah.

00:43:32.620 | - 'Cause like there's so much involved

00:43:33.980 | 'cause pulling on one part of the jacket

00:43:35.460 | pulls other parts of the jacket.

00:43:37.140 | - Yeah.

00:43:37.980 | - Like the physics of that is probably insane to understand.

00:43:40.460 | - It's absolutely insane.

00:43:41.580 | And then, you know, they changed the rules for a little while

00:43:44.420 | and they changed the rules so that you couldn't hold,

00:43:47.500 | you know, that certain grips were not allowed.

00:43:51.780 | You only allowed a certain amount of time

00:43:53.740 | and there were a lot of penalties from it, you know?

00:43:55.820 | And then, you know, they had some of the X fighters

00:43:59.260 | into the referee commission.

00:44:01.500 | And so we were pushing for, just let them grip, you know?

00:44:05.900 | Because that's our game, you know?

00:44:07.980 | That's what makes us different.

00:44:09.460 | You know, again, if grip up with somebody like,

00:44:12.540 | so they were on about Teddy Rene.

00:44:14.860 | - Yeah.

00:44:15.700 | - Teddy Rene comes out, takes the sleeve.

00:44:17.180 | - Yeah.

00:44:18.020 | - Big arm over the top and then, you know,

00:44:20.020 | he throws people, right?

00:44:20.940 | So they were saying, yeah, but stop,

00:44:23.060 | you can't stop him doing it.

00:44:25.060 | This guy is six foot nine and he is built like Garth,

00:44:29.620 | you know, he's like, and not only that,

00:44:32.900 | he's skillful as well, you know?

00:44:34.260 | And he's got that mentality of a winner.

00:44:37.460 | He has got that mentality of a winner there.

00:44:39.500 | He just wins important matches.

00:44:41.540 | - And he goes over the top of the grip.

00:44:43.020 | Do they, where's that land now in terms of rules

00:44:46.020 | over the top?

00:44:47.020 | 'Cause those are some of the most epic,

00:44:48.460 | awesome types of grips.

00:44:50.100 | - Yeah.

00:44:50.940 | - Just like over the top, just big grab.

00:44:53.060 | - Yeah.

00:44:53.900 | Well, as long as they throw from it,

00:44:55.820 | so they can take any grip, as long as you move them

00:44:59.380 | and then catch them, kind of action reaction, really,

00:45:02.500 | you know, as long as you catch them on the move,

00:45:04.660 | then you can do it.

00:45:05.500 | - So as long as you're not using it to stall

00:45:07.500 | or that kind of stuff.

00:45:08.340 | - Yeah, you can't block out.

00:45:09.540 | - Yeah.

00:45:10.980 | So like, for example, if I've got dominant grip on you

00:45:14.940 | and I just block out and I just stop you attacking me,

00:45:19.300 | so then what?

00:45:20.140 | I get you three penalties, get you off,

00:45:23.260 | and you haven't done an attack.

00:45:24.700 | So you've got to stop that.

00:45:25.700 | You can't have that.

00:45:26.540 | - Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:45:28.460 | You were the favorite to win the 1984 Olympics,

00:45:31.700 | but you got silver.

00:45:33.140 | I watched that match several times.

00:45:35.460 | You probably have it playing in your head.

00:45:38.500 | So there is a nice change of direction by your opponent,

00:45:42.660 | German Frank Wonecki.

00:45:44.940 | - Yeah.

00:45:45.780 | - It was a fake right uchimata,

00:45:48.380 | and then to a left drop seoi nage.

00:45:50.940 | How did that loss feel?

00:45:54.780 | - Devastating is not, you know, is not enough, really.

00:46:00.380 | Because, you know, the strange thing was,

00:46:02.820 | is coming into that Olympics, I was tired, really tired.

00:46:07.220 | So my mental state wasn't the best,

00:46:09.780 | wasn't certainly the same as it was coming into the previous

00:46:14.060 | and I remember thinking I just need to get this over with

00:46:20.780 | and then I'm gonna have a break and just have a rest,

00:46:24.140 | you know, and that's totally the wrong attitude.

00:46:26.940 | It's just not good for going into an Olympic Games.

00:46:31.700 | And so I was coming in there with a different mindset

00:46:37.460 | and I remember every match that I had, I was winning well,

00:46:42.460 | but I was winning with a struggle.

00:46:46.140 | You know, it was really not, I'd fought Novak

00:46:50.740 | and I was pretty of France,

00:46:53.220 | who was one of the strongest physically.

00:46:55.860 | That was in the quarterfinals.

00:46:57.180 | I beat Brett Barron by an ippon, I armlocked him.

00:47:01.020 | I won my first match by ippon as well.

00:47:05.420 | And then Michel Novak, I was fighting a France

00:47:09.980 | and I was lucky to win it.

00:47:12.420 | I was up, I would scored on him,

00:47:14.740 | but I was like starting to defend

00:47:17.100 | and just everything that I talked to you about, you know,

00:47:19.220 | and then just about held on and then I won.

00:47:22.140 | And, you know, so him and I were talking afterwards,

00:47:25.180 | like some years afterwards and he said,

00:47:27.380 | "I was close, wasn't I?"

00:47:28.540 | I was, "Yeah, but not close enough."

00:47:30.580 | (all laughing)

00:47:33.740 | I didn't mean it.

00:47:34.580 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:35.420 | - But I had to say it, right?

00:47:36.940 | - Of course, of course.

00:47:39.380 | - And no, he was right.

00:47:41.180 | You know, and it was one of those,

00:47:43.620 | so it's through to the semifinal.

00:47:45.820 | I fought Lesac in the semifinal of,

00:47:49.780 | and I'd fought him in the semifinal of the Worlds as well.

00:47:53.060 | I'd never gone time with him.

00:47:55.980 | You know, I'd never, I'd always beaten him fairly easily

00:47:58.940 | and with by ippon and that went time.

00:48:03.580 | So I was, you know, I was just glad to get it done.

00:48:06.860 | And I was in the final then against Frank Winnicker

00:48:10.500 | of Germany and I'd beaten Winnicker before,

00:48:13.260 | but he was just a young German coming through.

00:48:15.740 | And when I started the final, I was, I thought, right,

00:48:20.060 | I've just, and I started all my techniques

00:48:24.700 | just that little bit off.

00:48:26.020 | Nothing was coordinated, just, it was just,

00:48:30.020 | I can't really explain why it was just a little bit off.

00:48:32.860 | And I see it so often now with a lot of the guys

00:48:36.700 | that are going for second, third Olympic games.

00:48:39.140 | And I see their technique just not quite there

00:48:42.540 | and they're struggling.

00:48:43.500 | And I know when they're, you know,

00:48:45.140 | I know what they're going through

00:48:46.100 | and I kind of empathize with them.

00:48:48.260 | - Well, you were, it felt like you were

00:48:49.580 | dominating that final.

00:48:50.620 | - I dominated it, yeah, I was winning.

00:48:52.340 | Yeah, I was, and actually,

00:48:54.580 | if it had gone another minute and a half,

00:48:55.780 | it would have been all over

00:48:56.780 | and I would have been Olympic champion

00:48:58.220 | and it would have been done.

00:48:59.220 | He wouldn't have batted an eyelid, right?

00:49:00.860 | 'Cause he would have fought me really, really well.

00:49:03.540 | And he would have, you know,

00:49:05.700 | we talked about it afterwards

00:49:06.900 | and he said it was just my good day for me, you know,

00:49:09.780 | and he knows, he was very respectful.

00:49:12.100 | This guy is very respectful.

00:49:13.700 | - He was surprised almost.

00:49:15.260 | I mean, not almost, he was very surprised

00:49:17.300 | and celebrating like a surprise.

00:49:19.220 | - Jumping up and down like, you know, he just,

00:49:21.500 | and you look at that, can't you go,

00:49:24.420 | well, it was a nip on, but, you know,

00:49:26.340 | would I have got it back?

00:49:27.540 | I don't know.

00:49:28.900 | I think that actually taking the pressure off,

00:49:32.020 | 'cause that was another thing as well,

00:49:33.660 | pressure of being favorite, you know,

00:49:35.580 | and I see that with a lot of them.

00:49:37.500 | And, you know, the great champions,

00:49:39.540 | the ones that keep coming through, Capellic.

00:49:42.340 | There's a guy, you know, he can look very ordinary

00:49:45.220 | and then comes the big tournament and he'll win it.

00:49:49.540 | - The tragedy of the Olympic Games.

00:49:54.300 | I mean, you were the favorite and just like that,

00:49:57.340 | like split moment, you lost it.

00:49:59.660 | - Split moment, devastated.

00:50:01.820 | And lived it probably, not every day,

00:50:06.180 | but you know, Nikki, my wife will tell you

00:50:09.180 | that woken up in sweats and, you know,

00:50:14.180 | and I think they contributed as well

00:50:16.940 | because I had a period of my life

00:50:19.100 | after where I was drinking too much.

00:50:21.700 | And, you know, and I think kind of when I look back,

00:50:26.220 | kind of led into that kind of dark period of my life,

00:50:30.860 | you know, and I never ever, ever, you know,

00:50:34.180 | did it go through my mind, anything else,

00:50:36.620 | but it definitely affected me.

00:50:38.860 | And I was on a downward kind of spiral

00:50:41.860 | in a lot of different ways and would still,

00:50:45.580 | even, you know, we have an amazing marriage

00:50:48.460 | and we have an amazing family and everything's great,

00:50:52.380 | but I still wake up sometimes and I'll say,

00:50:54.260 | I've just dreamt, you know, that,

00:50:56.020 | and it's the same reoccurring dream

00:50:58.460 | where I'm trying to get somewhere

00:51:00.340 | and I'm trying to put it right, you know,

00:51:02.180 | and I've got this chance of putting

00:51:05.700 | this Olympic final right, you know,

00:51:07.500 | in this dream, I've got a chance of doing it,

00:51:10.260 | but I can't get there and the traffic's stopping me

00:51:12.820 | or something stops me and I, you know,

00:51:15.020 | and then I wake up and I'm sweating and I just,

00:51:17.940 | and you think, well, after all this time,

00:51:20.020 | that's not possible, but it is, and it happens.

00:51:22.860 | - Yeah, I mean, in the match itself,

00:51:24.460 | there's that feeling, for me just watching it,

00:51:26.900 | like you're going for throws,

00:51:29.100 | you're almost getting there with the throws

00:51:31.340 | and it's almost like he's going for a kind of crap

00:51:34.420 | Uchimata and then you're just like,

00:51:36.460 | you're stopping, you're blocking it,

00:51:38.100 | and all of a sudden, I mean,

00:51:39.780 | that's the beauty of the Olympics,

00:51:41.100 | he finds it in himself to switch.

00:51:44.540 | - Yeah. - And that, like,

00:51:45.380 | against a favorite, against sort of

00:51:48.780 | the great British Judoka,

00:51:51.620 | just finds the perfect drops in Auggie.

00:51:54.220 | - Well, you know, his team doctor and coach,

00:51:59.140 | he came up to me afterwards and said,

00:52:00.500 | "I'm just really sorry."

00:52:02.020 | And that's all they said is, "I'm just really sorry."

00:52:05.140 | They were sorry because, you know,

00:52:06.820 | obviously, the obvious sadness about that, you know,

00:52:10.220 | and of course, everybody takes their,

00:52:13.740 | you know, I went actually two and a,

00:52:16.700 | was it three weeks later, the German Open.

00:52:20.700 | So he had to compete in the German Open three weeks later.

00:52:24.980 | So I went over to fight him

00:52:26.540 | and beat him in the final of the German Open.

00:52:31.980 | And it didn't do anything for me

00:52:34.020 | 'cause it was a much tighter match.

00:52:35.980 | He was a lot closer.

00:52:37.140 | He had a lot more confidence coming in.

00:52:39.380 | So he fought me a lot differently.

00:52:40.940 | And then it was me pulling it back

00:52:43.460 | and just managing to win in the final.

00:52:46.100 | And I thought, well, that might appease,

00:52:47.940 | it appeased nothing, didn't do anything.

00:52:50.980 | - When you give your whole life to judo,

00:52:53.620 | just, and your love of winning,

00:52:56.420 | that's crazy how much the Olympic Games mean.

00:52:58.700 | - It means so much.

00:53:01.620 | And I think, you know, but I've got to,

00:53:03.860 | and I've got to say this, and this is honestly, you know,

00:53:06.300 | if it meant that if I'd have won that Olympic Games

00:53:08.740 | and it had to change my life into a different direction,

00:53:11.740 | which I probably would have not competed

00:53:13.860 | in the '88 Olympic Games then,

00:53:15.900 | all right, so if it had changed my life

00:53:17.860 | and then I didn't have, I didn't meet my wife

00:53:20.220 | and I, you know, didn't have my family that I've got now,

00:53:22.980 | there's no, you know, I wouldn't swap that,

00:53:27.220 | what I've got now for anything.

00:53:29.420 | - Well, part of the demons that you've gotten to know

00:53:32.940 | because of those losses is part of probably

00:53:36.700 | the central reason that made you the man you are,

00:53:40.060 | a legend of the sport.

00:53:41.700 | You could have been not that.

00:53:44.460 | 'Cause an Olympic gold is just an Olympic gold.

00:53:47.340 | - Yeah, and it is, isn't it?

00:53:49.340 | You know, and I think that there's a lot

00:53:51.300 | of Olympic champions and world champions

00:53:54.140 | that win and then are forgotten.

00:53:57.300 | And I said to Nikki, I said, my wife, I said,

00:54:02.580 | I don't want to be forgotten and I want to be remembered.

00:54:05.900 | So if I'm going to do anything, anything I do,

00:54:07.980 | if I'm going to do commentary or whatever it is,

00:54:11.140 | or coaching, I want to do coaching to a high level.

00:54:14.300 | And I want to commentate at a high level.

00:54:17.180 | I remember the first commentary I ever did,

00:54:19.060 | it was terrible.

00:54:19.900 | And I just thought I've got to do better than this.

00:54:23.420 | And I thought, I just, I need to do it well.

00:54:28.060 | And I've got to do it professionally.

00:54:29.780 | - So in the book, "A Game of Throws,"

00:54:33.380 | you have a chapter titled "Lessons in Losing."

00:54:36.100 | So what are some of the lessons here?

00:54:38.580 | What are some of the deeper lessons

00:54:40.740 | you've pulled out of losing?

00:54:42.500 | - I think great champions are made up of the people

00:54:46.180 | that handle it in the right way.

00:54:49.020 | And you could say, well, I don't like losing.

00:54:52.900 | And you know, and you could throw your dummy out the pram

00:54:56.180 | and you can be a bad loser in front of everybody.

00:54:59.860 | And actually people pick up on that very, very quickly.

00:55:02.660 | You know what it's like in broadcasting, right?

00:55:04.740 | Somebody has a bad word to say about somebody and yeah.

00:55:08.580 | And it, but actually the ones that endear themselves to you

00:55:12.580 | are the ones that handle it in the right way,

00:55:15.420 | the correct way.

00:55:16.260 | It doesn't mean that you've got to like it.

00:55:17.940 | I didn't like it.

00:55:19.460 | And I thought that I handled it certainly in later years

00:55:24.260 | in the right way.

00:55:25.900 | And I like to see athletes do it in the right way.

00:55:29.020 | You know, and I think that it's a make or break situation.

00:55:32.580 | It's not all the contests they win,

00:55:34.300 | it's the one that they lose.

00:55:35.620 | And then how they pick themselves up

00:55:37.180 | and handle themselves after.

00:55:39.260 | So I think that that is a big one for me.

00:55:42.180 | And also, I mean, I went through, you know,

00:55:46.060 | obviously a later divorce and that was difficult on my son,

00:55:51.060 | really difficult on Ashley.

00:55:53.540 | And then I was, and I think that some of that

00:55:57.020 | was the fact that I was, you know, kind of,

00:55:59.660 | I wasn't drinking all the time,

00:56:01.460 | but I was drinking in excess at the wrong times, you know?

00:56:05.180 | And I think that that's what a lot of people do.

00:56:06.980 | Sometimes is that they use it for the wrong reasons,

00:56:10.620 | you know, and I used to hear it.

00:56:12.660 | I hear it now all the time, you know,

00:56:14.820 | and is that, you know, I need to knock the edge off

00:56:17.220 | and I need to just forget.

00:56:19.660 | And I need to, you know,

00:56:21.780 | and you need to be in a fuzzy place for a while.

00:56:25.220 | And I had a lot of time in fuzzy place

00:56:28.380 | and I needed to get rid of that, you know,

00:56:29.900 | and I needed to clear my head.

00:56:32.460 | - Where was that place?

00:56:34.820 | Some of the lower points in your life

00:56:37.980 | that you've reached mentally?

00:56:39.660 | - I think, you know, definitely, you know,

00:56:43.940 | the fact that my marriage, first marriage didn't work,

00:56:48.940 | you know, and that was, you know,

00:56:52.780 | it's a mix of things that, you know, between us.

00:56:55.700 | And then, you know,

00:56:57.620 | so that's not where I wanted to be at the time.

00:57:01.340 | And the effects that it had on my son,

00:57:06.180 | and it took a long time for him then

00:57:09.900 | to come around and to trust me again,

00:57:12.220 | you know, and to have belief.

00:57:15.340 | He always had belief in me, but to trust me again.

00:57:18.980 | And then I think that that was low.

00:57:21.780 | And I think that, you know, when I look back

00:57:24.460 | is that a lot of my bad decisions

00:57:27.100 | were when I was in that fuzzy kind of haze

00:57:30.220 | and that it got progressively worse.

00:57:32.940 | That got progressively worse to the degree

00:57:36.260 | where it was, you know, trying to hide it

00:57:39.180 | and trying to hide how much.

00:57:41.460 | And I was kind of a functioning kind of drunk.

00:57:46.460 | You know, I think you could probably say that.

00:57:49.380 | And I, you know, I was functioning.

00:57:50.980 | I was still able to, I was still training most days,

00:57:54.940 | crazily enough.

00:57:55.940 | You know, I was training to kind of mask it and cover it.

00:57:59.540 | And that was probably my savior that I was still,

00:58:02.620 | you know, 'cause I remember I said to my wife,

00:58:04.700 | I said to Nikki, "I'm probably the fittest.

00:58:07.700 | "If I'm, you know, a drunk,

00:58:09.140 | "then I'm a fittest drunk in the world."

00:58:11.340 | She said, "Yeah, you probably are actually."

00:58:13.620 | You know, I was in great condition for a drunk.

00:58:16.500 | - So the fuzzy haze, where was your mind?

00:58:20.020 | Did you have periods of depression?

00:58:23.060 | - I had periods of depression.

00:58:27.420 | I can honestly say that my depression wasn't that bad.

00:58:31.580 | Although I did, you know, when it's like anything

00:58:34.580 | that gives you an up, you know,

00:58:36.100 | it gives you an even bigger down, doesn't it?

00:58:38.660 | You know, and so I hated that feeling

00:58:42.420 | and also hated myself for letting it happen

00:58:46.780 | because I have got this really, it's a bizarre,

00:58:50.420 | I don't know whether you can call it a power,

00:58:54.220 | but I have the ability to be able to say, "Stop."

00:58:58.540 | And I can just, and that's what I did in the end.

00:59:02.700 | In the end, there was an incident

00:59:04.540 | when I was working for Belgian Judo

00:59:08.380 | and there was an incident, it was Christmas.

00:59:10.500 | It was, I tell you exactly the day.

00:59:12.660 | It was 20th of December and me and a Belgian coach,

00:59:17.660 | we got absolutely hammered.

00:59:21.340 | But we were at the wrong place and he got noticed

00:59:23.820 | and so I remember they pulled me up in front of this board

00:59:28.820 | and I looked down at these guys

00:59:32.460 | and half of them were people I didn't want to be

00:59:35.660 | in that situation with.

00:59:37.900 | You know, they're not people that I respected

00:59:40.060 | and they're not people that I trusted.

00:59:42.460 | So I said, "If you're gonna sack me, sack me,

00:59:49.220 | "but I'll promise you now that I will just,

00:59:53.500 | "this is it, I'll stop.

00:59:54.820 | "I'm just gonna stop."

00:59:56.020 | I've decided.

00:59:57.700 | On the way back in the car, I rang Nicky up, my wife,

01:00:02.220 | and I said, "Whatever you hear now, whatever,

01:00:04.820 | "I'm just gonna stop."

01:00:06.540 | So that was it, stopped.

01:00:10.260 | - You just saw the moment and said, "Stop."

01:00:14.700 | - Stop.

01:00:15.620 | - So that fuzzy place, what advice could you give to people

01:00:19.700 | how to overcome that dark place, the depression,

01:00:24.100 | whether it has to do with drinking or not?

01:00:26.540 | - I think if it's to do with drinking,

01:00:30.380 | all I can say is that the two days or a week

01:00:37.020 | into not drinking, you'll feel different.

01:00:40.740 | You know, it'll make a physical difference

01:00:43.420 | and you'll like that physical difference.

01:00:47.500 | And then from a mental perspective as well,

01:00:50.460 | because I think that you have a massive downer.

01:00:54.460 | And I think that that must be because of drugs as well,

01:00:59.500 | because I had a situation with my brother.

01:01:01.540 | He was like professional wrestling

01:01:05.500 | and the drugs was an element there.

01:01:08.540 | And so I'd never touched a drug

01:01:11.220 | or even seen one in my life.

01:01:14.140 | But I'd let the alcohol side go too far

01:01:17.860 | and then decided never to do that.

01:01:20.140 | So then I guess I had people ringing me up,

01:01:23.220 | saying, "How can we stop?"

01:01:26.940 | So when they say, "Can I have a word?

01:01:29.100 | Can I discuss something with you?"

01:01:31.420 | And I know then what they wanna discuss with me.

01:01:35.660 | And the thing is, is that I would say,

01:01:37.620 | if you stop, then feel the effects of it

01:01:43.940 | and it will make a difference to your everyday life

01:01:46.900 | and that will make a massive difference.

01:01:49.260 | And I think about anybody who kind of is down all the time

01:01:53.660 | is to find the cause of what's pushing you down,

01:01:57.380 | you know what I mean?

01:01:58.220 | And try and attack that.

01:02:02.940 | I mean, because it's never...

01:02:05.380 | Somebody once said to me, they said,

01:02:07.940 | "Whatever you got, we've got something special.

01:02:12.220 | I mean, we have a great life

01:02:14.300 | and I've had a great competition record."

01:02:18.140 | You know, it could have been better, but it was great.

01:02:21.620 | But I've had success with my business

01:02:25.820 | and we're still out there and we have a great life.

01:02:29.060 | We travel all the world.

01:02:30.660 | And there's people out there that would live in your house

01:02:34.060 | at the drop of a hat, wherever you are.

01:02:36.100 | They drive your car, no matter what car it is.

01:02:39.620 | Some people haven't got a car, you know?

01:02:41.900 | And whatever food you're having

01:02:44.220 | and you're moaning about food, right?

01:02:46.220 | Somebody out there that would take that

01:02:48.180 | and gladly eat that, all right?

01:02:49.900 | So there's always somebody worse off than you.

01:02:52.220 | And I think that we tend to sometimes, you know,

01:02:55.740 | look at the things that we haven't got

01:02:57.540 | rather than the things we have got.

01:02:59.020 | - Yeah, it's a skill probably to be grateful

01:03:02.220 | for the things you have, exactly as you said.

01:03:04.460 | And sometimes the little things like food

01:03:07.860 | and cars and all that kind of stuff,

01:03:11.220 | just to have gratitude for.

01:03:12.820 | And family, all this kind of stuff.

01:03:14.580 | But it's still, you know,

01:03:16.980 | having talked to a bunch of Olympic athletes,

01:03:19.460 | there is a, you know, when you give so much of your life

01:03:24.900 | to winning and then you lose,

01:03:27.740 | sometimes even when you win,

01:03:30.000 | but when you lose at the very top,

01:03:33.220 | it's a tough, tough, like tough thing to go through.

01:03:37.740 | - The most difficult thing, I think, for anybody

01:03:40.580 | is when they have to decide when to stop.

01:03:42.740 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:03:43.940 | - You know, and all of a sudden,

01:03:46.980 | and I see the ones that are going to second Olympic Games

01:03:50.220 | and then third Olympic,

01:03:51.500 | and the ones that are there and they're holding on

01:03:55.300 | and they're in their thirties now,

01:03:57.620 | different to when they were 19 years of age,

01:04:00.580 | you know, 30 something is different to 19.

01:04:03.780 | And then what are you going to do afterwards?

01:04:06.340 | You know, and then how do you become just a normal person?

01:04:09.340 | You're never going to be a normal person as such,

01:04:13.220 | but I think you've got to do normal things, you know,

01:04:15.500 | and then you've got, I remember the first time

01:04:17.100 | that when I finished competition, I had good sponsors.

01:04:20.140 | This was, you know, 40 years ago,

01:04:22.100 | but I had two really good sponsorships,

01:04:25.020 | Vitamin Company and also Judo Gi Company.

01:04:30.540 | And I had a car and, you know, I had money.

01:04:33.880 | I just, and I was going all over the world.

01:04:37.260 | I was successful.

01:04:38.540 | And then I stopped and they took everything back.

01:04:42.300 | They took my car.

01:04:43.340 | They did, and they did it within two weeks as well.

01:04:46.140 | They stopped my funding.

01:04:47.460 | They, you know, and the Vitamin Company said,

01:04:49.660 | thank you very much.

01:04:50.540 | It's been a great, you know, we've done well by you.

01:04:53.280 | Bye-bye.

01:04:55.140 | - This was after your last Olympics.

01:04:57.620 | - '88 Olympics.

01:04:58.620 | - Yeah, '88.

01:04:59.460 | - You know, when that finished and then that was it,

01:05:01.300 | you know, and then it's right, okay.

01:05:03.500 | First time I had to go in there and buy a track suit

01:05:06.220 | and a pair of training shoes.

01:05:07.460 | - Yeah.

01:05:08.380 | - Wow.

01:05:09.220 | - Yeah, those are different.

01:05:10.420 | Sitting there in the evening by yourself.

01:05:13.220 | - So you go from seven days a week or six days a week

01:05:16.260 | going into the gym and, you know,

01:05:17.940 | you're working out the dojo and then you,

01:05:21.060 | then you don't have to do it.

01:05:22.860 | You know, and that's why you get a lot of,

01:05:25.580 | when they finish competition,

01:05:27.420 | they finish that 30 to 40.

01:05:30.180 | It's still, I mean, Ilyas is still doing it now.

01:05:32.860 | He's still in there and he's still, you know,

01:05:35.500 | because he can, right?

01:05:36.700 | Okay, and it's natural.

01:05:38.620 | And I did exactly the same.

01:05:40.660 | And then, like I say, you just get to an age

01:05:42.620 | and you just think, well, I'm just gonna kind of

01:05:45.220 | take a step back.

01:05:46.980 | - Which is why, like, there's certain athletes

01:05:49.140 | like Ryo Kotani, never stops.

01:05:52.940 | It just dominates for 14 years.

01:05:55.980 | Probably one of the winningest athletes in judo.

01:06:00.020 | - Yeah.

01:06:00.860 | - Seven-time world champ, two-time Olympic champ,

01:06:03.140 | medaled at five Olympics.

01:06:05.460 | So it's always impressive.

01:06:06.380 | - Never stopped.

01:06:07.540 | - Never stopped.

01:06:08.940 | So that's an option, if you're like the greatest ever.

01:06:12.580 | - Be interesting, wouldn't it,

01:06:13.420 | just to see what they're doing now, you know?

01:06:15.580 | Because at some stage, you have to get a normal job.

01:06:17.780 | - You do have to stop.

01:06:18.620 | - You do have to stop, you know, at some stage.

01:06:21.020 | You have to decide what you're gonna do, you know?

01:06:23.860 | And we, you know, it's either into coaching,

01:06:26.020 | the judo is either to coaching,

01:06:28.500 | or if you're not in coaching, then it's into

01:06:31.660 | something to do with the media.

01:06:35.740 | And, you know, I was lucky that I,

01:06:37.780 | it was just by accident, really, with the commentary.

01:06:40.340 | Somebody said, "Would you do a voiceover?"

01:06:43.700 | So I did this voiceover, and that was back in 1982,

01:06:47.900 | I did that.

01:06:49.220 | - So you've been commentating since 1982.

01:06:52.300 | - I did some voiceovers.

01:06:53.500 | I wouldn't call it commentating.

01:06:55.820 | But I did some voiceovers, and then I did some,

01:06:58.940 | we did some different European Championships,

01:07:02.420 | World Championship kind of events,

01:07:05.180 | and I did the voiceovers for it.

01:07:06.940 | And the way that it was done, that it was more narration.

01:07:11.860 | And so it kind of turned into,

01:07:13.860 | then somebody asked me to do an event,

01:07:16.180 | and when you listen to the intonation of the voice

01:07:19.500 | and stuff like that, it wasn't like it is now.

01:07:22.340 | But I guess that's just something that developed,

01:07:25.300 | as I, you know, because then it was coming from the heart.

01:07:28.460 | And I started to get excited and just do my thing,

01:07:32.100 | and it was just me, really, it was just my style.

01:07:34.140 | - Well, I've listened to your commentary from a while back,

01:07:37.060 | I don't know if it's the '80s, but it's still there.

01:07:40.060 | - I think it's timing as well, isn't it?

01:07:41.860 | It's like, you know, you get your timing a bit better,

01:07:44.500 | and know when to go in, when to come out,

01:07:47.780 | when to say something, when not, you know?

01:07:49.860 | And I think that in the early days,

01:07:52.660 | I tended to think, I tended to want to talk all the time,

01:07:57.220 | and you don't have to do that.

01:07:58.980 | - Also knowing when to shut up.

01:08:01.300 | - That's the key, isn't it?

01:08:02.740 | - Yeah, part of the drama is in the silence,

01:08:05.500 | building up to the setup and the throw

01:08:08.540 | and all that kind of stuff.

01:08:09.740 | But also, you're very good at, while radiating passion,

01:08:14.740 | being very precise and specific about the details

01:08:18.260 | of the throw and the setup,

01:08:19.420 | and why something worked and didn't, so.

01:08:22.300 | - Yeah, I think there's two kinds of commentating.

01:08:25.100 | You can commentate what you see,

01:08:27.460 | and then you commentate what people can't see, you know?

01:08:31.420 | And so if you've got somebody that is not really understanding

01:08:35.260 | of what's happening in the inner part of the game,

01:08:38.140 | so it might be a technical thing,

01:08:39.820 | or it might be the tactical part of the play here

01:08:43.900 | that's going on, and if you can introduce that as well,

01:08:47.980 | then you've got an advantage.

01:08:49.500 | - Quick pause, I need a bathroom break.

01:08:52.380 | - Okay, good stuff.

01:08:54.820 | So we just took a little break and went to judotv.com,

01:08:59.340 | which is, I guess, an IGF website.

01:09:02.020 | IGF is the organization behind

01:09:03.940 | a lot of the big judo events in the world.

01:09:06.380 | And I just signed up.

01:09:07.540 | You should sign up too, it's great.

01:09:09.100 | - Absolutely, sign up.

01:09:10.820 | Cheaper the price, cheaper the price.

01:09:12.860 | - Yeah.

01:09:13.700 | And you can watch basically any match

01:09:16.820 | from the Grand Slams and go back through history, I guess.

01:09:20.740 | - Yeah, I've gotta say, Lex, I mean, everybody,

01:09:23.260 | there's still people saying to me,

01:09:24.740 | "Oh, we need more judo on television."

01:09:27.420 | They've got judo on television every other week

01:09:30.980 | that they can access.

01:09:31.980 | All of the top people in all the top events,

01:09:35.300 | and it costs $100 a year to access everything.

01:09:39.980 | And they can play all the videos.

01:09:41.620 | I mean, we've just accessed this here,

01:09:44.140 | the Paris tournament,

01:09:45.180 | and we're gonna have a look at Teddy Rene,

01:09:47.340 | but it's cheap at the price.

01:09:51.180 | So we're now at Paris Grand Slam 2024,

01:09:53.860 | Teddy Rene final.

01:09:55.420 | By the way, it's super cool.

01:09:56.260 | Like, you click on the draw,

01:09:57.660 | and you can just look at any of the matches.

01:10:03.180 | You can go to the bottom of the finals.

01:10:04.460 | You can go-

01:10:05.660 | - Yeah, to any one.

01:10:06.940 | - Any one of them, that's so cool.

01:10:08.420 | That's really well done.

01:10:09.980 | Really well done interface.

01:10:11.260 | Anyway, let me at first ask the ridiculous big question.

01:10:13.940 | Who do you think is the greatest of all time?

01:10:15.540 | Is Teddy Rene in the writing?

01:10:17.060 | - He's the greatest judo winner of all time.

01:10:20.860 | Of that, there's no doubt.

01:10:22.340 | You know, I mean, he is.

01:10:23.980 | And I think if you asked him

01:10:26.260 | whether he was the greatest judo man

01:10:30.260 | in the world of all time,

01:10:32.460 | he would say, "No, I'm not."

01:10:34.300 | You know, and he's not the greatest judo man.

01:10:37.140 | There are people with, you know,

01:10:39.980 | more beautiful judo in some ways,

01:10:42.020 | although he's got great technique,

01:10:44.300 | but he is the ultimate winner.

01:10:47.060 | - 10-time world champ.

01:10:49.180 | - Yeah.

01:10:50.020 | - 10-time gold medalist in the Olympics.

01:10:52.740 | I guess two-time bronze medalist.

01:10:54.860 | He's probably going, is he's going to Paris?

01:10:56.940 | - Yeah.

01:10:57.780 | - He's going after it again.

01:10:58.780 | So he's right here.

01:10:59.620 | I mean-

01:11:00.460 | - He's right there.

01:11:01.300 | You know, this was just a couple of months ago.

01:11:02.820 | And then last week he was out again and he won again.

01:11:07.540 | - You think he gets gold medal this time?

01:11:09.300 | - There's people getting closer to him, right?

01:11:11.460 | 'Cause he's obviously, you know, he's age-wise

01:11:15.020 | and the amount of time that he's been there,

01:11:17.300 | he's obviously somebody that is starting

01:11:22.300 | not quite at his best as he was when he was younger.

01:11:26.660 | But he, like I say, he still puts it on the line.

01:11:29.620 | He lays it on the line every single time.

01:11:32.660 | And then not only does he lay it on the line,

01:11:34.740 | but he beats them all, you know?

01:11:36.140 | And last week he just beat Saito,

01:11:38.740 | who's a young up-and-coming Japanese fighter.

01:11:41.140 | And he beat him in the final.

01:11:43.820 | It was close and he did well.

01:11:45.300 | There are certain people, the smaller ones actually,

01:11:49.380 | not the taller ones, 'cause like, you know,

01:11:51.300 | we're saying about the big arm over the top that he likes

01:11:54.300 | and the dominant grip that he likes.

01:11:57.020 | There are people that can give him a hard time.

01:11:59.940 | Now, if at the Olympic Games

01:12:01.180 | he has two or three of those on the trot,

01:12:03.740 | it might work against him, you know?

01:12:05.300 | And it's by no means an absolute certainty

01:12:08.700 | that he's gonna win the Olympic gold medal.

01:12:10.540 | But he's gotta be one of the favorites, top favorite.

01:12:14.500 | You know, no matter what happens now,

01:12:16.860 | Teddy Rene is the greatest winner that, you know,

01:12:19.700 | and if you asked the great Yamashita,

01:12:22.380 | he would say the same.

01:12:23.980 | You know, there's nobody that's...

01:12:25.940 | You know, and Yamashita was unbeaten

01:12:27.300 | in international competition.

01:12:28.580 | And I trained with Yamashita a lot over a two-year period

01:12:33.580 | and got to know him quite well.

01:12:35.860 | And he was one of the greatest of all times.

01:12:38.260 | You know, for me, he was one of the greatest judo men.

01:12:41.380 | And I'm talking about from a technical point of view,

01:12:44.460 | from a spectacular judo point of view,

01:12:48.140 | understanding the fundamental principles

01:12:51.860 | of how techniques work.

01:12:54.580 | Sometimes having, you know,

01:12:55.900 | different techniques that work for you, you know?

01:12:57.900 | So if one doesn't work

01:12:59.540 | and one particular direction doesn't work,

01:13:01.980 | you can change the direction completely.

01:13:04.740 | - In case people don't know,

01:13:05.580 | Yamashita is this legendary judoka, heavyweight.

01:13:09.300 | Teddy Rene, heavyweight, that's plus 100 kg.

01:13:12.780 | So he- - He would've caused him

01:13:14.220 | all sorts of problems.

01:13:15.540 | - Oh yeah, that's cool.

01:13:16.980 | Who do you think wins, Yamashita versus Teddy Rene?

01:13:18.420 | - Yeah, so I think Yamashita, but you know-

01:13:21.340 | - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:13:22.180 | Do you think Yamashita beats Teddy Rene?

01:13:24.020 | - I think so.

01:13:24.860 | - Strong words.

01:13:27.260 | You think so.

01:13:28.540 | You think so.

01:13:29.460 | Yamashita is on the shorter side, right?

01:13:32.060 | - Yeah, and he finds it more difficult with shorter people,

01:13:35.260 | you know?

01:13:36.100 | And so it would've been a very interesting confrontation.

01:13:40.820 | And I think if you asked Yamashita,

01:13:43.860 | he would probably say, you know,

01:13:47.980 | that Teddy Rene, he's very gracious.

01:13:50.340 | He's really gracious.

01:13:52.380 | It would be really good.

01:13:53.540 | It would've been an unbelievable matchup.

01:13:57.220 | And I've gotta say this, that, you know,

01:14:00.260 | Teddy Rene is the greatest winner of all time.

01:14:03.500 | - Competition-wise.

01:14:04.740 | So it's interesting.

01:14:06.220 | Both of them, maybe you can correct me,

01:14:09.380 | but have this Osorogare,

01:14:11.060 | which is kind of a trip that I never understood.

01:14:14.580 | - Yeah.

01:14:15.500 | - Like, it was a very tricky thing to do, right?

01:14:18.940 | It's very easy to do maybe as a white belt.

01:14:21.780 | You roll in, you can understand,

01:14:24.460 | but like to do it at the high, high, high level.

01:14:27.780 | - You see any of the top guys now,

01:14:30.140 | especially if they're second time out, you know?

01:14:34.100 | So like, they might catch somebody by surprise.

01:14:36.300 | They come out and they go, bang.

01:14:38.500 | And you go, that was amazing, right?

01:14:39.900 | But if they fought again, 10 minutes later,

01:14:42.900 | you go, you're not gonna catch me with that, right?

01:14:46.060 | You got a different situation here.

01:14:47.940 | And so it's slightly different,

01:14:50.500 | but the best fighters adapt like that.

01:14:54.940 | And they're able to see a situation, feel the situation,

01:14:59.500 | and they attack once and then go again

01:15:02.140 | and attack second, third time.

01:15:04.380 | And in the third time, they make it work.

01:15:06.260 | - Yeah, both Yamashita and Teddy Rene

01:15:08.180 | with Sorogare, they'll just like hit it

01:15:10.540 | over and over in the match.

01:15:11.700 | - Yeah, sometimes it'll hit first time and it won't go.

01:15:14.580 | And then you make a readjustment of the way in.

01:15:16.900 | It's a little bit like, I mean,

01:15:18.100 | if you take a really easy way of understanding it,

01:15:21.180 | is if we're shooting at a target

01:15:23.740 | and all of a sudden you start moving that target,

01:15:27.740 | you know, it's different hitting a moving target,

01:15:30.860 | but it's also different hitting a moving target

01:15:33.380 | that's trying to hit you as well.

01:15:35.700 | And that's our game, right?

01:15:36.980 | So we're not only trying to throw a moving target,

01:15:40.580 | we're trying to throw a moving target

01:15:42.100 | that's trying to throw us.

01:15:43.780 | So that makes it even more difficult.

01:15:45.460 | - Yeah, there's a few folks who you know what's coming.

01:15:50.420 | It's like over and over and over, it's the same attack.

01:15:53.580 | Anyway, with this Uchimada, it's like, it's different.

01:15:58.580 | There's not many people like that,

01:16:00.300 | where it's like the same attack.

01:16:01.900 | I mean, there's other attacks also,

01:16:03.380 | but they'll just go after the same thing

01:16:04.740 | over and over and over.

01:16:05.700 | - When I watch great athletes,

01:16:08.100 | most of them can throw over both flanks.

01:16:11.940 | Not always going left and right, you know,

01:16:14.100 | although our sport always, I mean,

01:16:17.500 | the Katters are always demonstrated left and right.

01:16:20.340 | So like, if you demonstrate,

01:16:22.220 | if you do something on one side, you know,

01:16:25.820 | then can you demonstrate it on the other side, right?

01:16:28.420 | Okay, so can you do it equally?

01:16:30.700 | No, but you do it differently, right, on the other side.

01:16:34.260 | So, you know, when I'm teaching,

01:16:36.300 | I don't teach left and right.

01:16:38.460 | I teach, so if I was teaching you to do a technique,

01:16:42.340 | first thing I'd do is say,

01:16:43.580 | I need you to take the sleeve and lapel, all right?

01:16:46.460 | So I'd let you decide what was left and right, okay?

01:16:49.980 | 'Cause often what happens is we impart on people,

01:16:54.980 | whether they're gonna be left or right

01:16:56.820 | when we start teaching.

01:16:57.860 | You know, you get a lot of teachers do that, all right?

01:17:00.180 | And they'll say immediately,

01:17:02.060 | what do you write with, left or right hand?

01:17:04.060 | And it's no indicator actually as to how we do judo,

01:17:06.900 | 'cause I'm left-handed

01:17:08.700 | and I do more predominantly right-handed

01:17:11.060 | because I lead off my strongest hand.

01:17:14.380 | And actually most people do, you know,

01:17:16.420 | so actually left and right is a bit of a trap sometimes,

01:17:20.020 | you know, when we're teaching.

01:17:21.260 | Better to get, you know, because we can go,

01:17:24.340 | so my point was is that a lot of people can go both flanks.

01:17:29.340 | So they'll do something over this side

01:17:31.180 | and something over this side.

01:17:32.620 | - But in a way it was one-sided.

01:17:35.020 | - He was one-sided, but he could switch it.

01:17:37.580 | So he had a Shinagi as well on the other side.

01:17:41.500 | So he could switch it if he had to, yeah.

01:17:44.500 | - And by the way, your opponent in '84,

01:17:48.060 | was he righty or lefty?

01:17:50.020 | - He was a righty.

01:17:51.060 | - So that drop left, say, oh, where did that come from?

01:17:55.020 | - Well, I mean, again, it was, you know,

01:17:57.100 | he could have probably, in other contests,

01:18:00.140 | he'd hit me with it several times

01:18:02.100 | and I'd just stopped it, you know,

01:18:03.580 | and just at the wrong place at the right time for him.

01:18:07.060 | Right place in the wrong time for me, right?

01:18:10.180 | - That's life, you know.

01:18:11.260 | - Yeah.

01:18:12.460 | - All right, let's watch from tight over there.

01:18:14.860 | - This is final of Paris tournament.

01:18:20.460 | And this is against the Korean.

01:18:23.660 | The Korean had had a great day, actually.

01:18:26.260 | - Again, shorter.

01:18:31.420 | - Again, shorter.

01:18:32.580 | So he does find that difficult.

01:18:33.820 | Have a look at Teddy Renner.

01:18:34.940 | Teddy Renner is trying to catch the sleeve.

01:18:37.700 | He's after the sleeve and then the right arm over the top.

01:18:41.300 | That's the key point for Teddy Renner.

01:18:43.500 | And of course, what he has done,

01:18:48.780 | if he can't always catch the big Osada Gary

01:18:52.660 | over his right-hand side,

01:18:55.900 | he's been doing something to the opposite side.

01:19:00.740 | And the Korean just went for a drop sale.

01:19:03.660 | And Teddy Renner blocked with the hips.

01:19:09.420 | And he's, he's a big boy.

01:19:12.060 | - Like I say, he has difficulty always against somebody

01:19:15.980 | smaller dropping with the sea and Aggies.

01:19:18.660 | - Has Teddy Renner ever been thrown for Ippon?

01:19:21.460 | Do you remember?

01:19:23.380 | - I've never seen him thrown for Ippon,

01:19:24.220 | but he was thrown last week for a nice technique

01:19:27.420 | and he's being caught more and more.

01:19:29.340 | - So it's getting close.

01:19:30.300 | - Yeah.

01:19:31.140 | And Tseyev in the final of the world championships,

01:19:34.860 | they had a strange situation there where Tseyev

01:19:37.940 | was a technique down and then pulled off a counter

01:19:44.100 | and they didn't count it, but then they overruled it.

01:19:49.580 | Unfortunately, I was commentating at the time

01:19:52.140 | and I went for a score for Tseyev.

01:19:56.580 | And anyway, they overruled it.

01:19:58.620 | And then they awarded a second gold medal to Tseyev.

01:20:02.220 | - What can you say about Tamerlan Basaev

01:20:04.780 | who also gave him trouble?

01:20:06.300 | - Yeah, Basaev and Tseyev are the two

01:20:08.700 | that could possibly go to the Olympics.

01:20:11.100 | So that was a close one there from Renner.

01:20:14.940 | That was closest that he'd actually been.

01:20:16.860 | - Oh, wow.

01:20:18.180 | - So didn't have the sleeve

01:20:20.100 | and he relies on the sleeve greatly.

01:20:23.140 | Big support there in the French, in the crowd.

01:20:26.740 | - And also maybe can you explain the penalties for stalling?

01:20:31.020 | - Yeah, so if they don't attack,

01:20:32.860 | if they've got a grip and they've got sleeve lapel

01:20:35.900 | or they got two hands on,

01:20:38.180 | if they're too passive and they don't attack,

01:20:40.660 | if they've got dominant sleeve grip, they don't attack.

01:20:43.660 | That was quite close as well from the Koreans.

01:20:46.100 | So the Korean here you can see is having a real go.

01:20:49.420 | The penalties will come if they don't attack

01:20:51.180 | at the right time.

01:20:52.340 | Step outside the yellow area,

01:20:53.980 | they'll get penalized as well.

01:20:56.220 | That...

01:20:57.060 | - That's dedication for...

01:20:59.660 | - Absolutely, I mean, it was really close, wasn't it?

01:21:01.980 | They had a nice little coach, Gary, there from the Korean.

01:21:05.900 | And if they touch below the belt line with the arms,

01:21:09.580 | so if they can, they're not allowed to grab the legs.

01:21:12.940 | They've stopped grabbing the legs.

01:21:14.740 | - Wow, the Koreans really going...

01:21:17.700 | - Koreans having a real good go at it.

01:21:20.140 | - I guess every single person in that division

01:21:22.300 | is probably training for Teddy Renner, right?

01:21:24.700 | - You think Teddy Renner's been there a long time.

01:21:27.420 | He's got another guy here

01:21:28.620 | in the final of the Paris tournament.

01:21:30.460 | He's got 18,000 people watching him.

01:21:33.380 | They're all on Teddy Renner's side.

01:21:35.580 | They want him to win.

01:21:36.940 | And the Korean's out there on his own with his coach.

01:21:39.660 | - But also the pressure on Teddy Renner.

01:21:41.980 | - Amazing pressure.

01:21:44.420 | We interviewed him after this.

01:21:46.780 | And he said, "I've got pressure."

01:21:49.060 | People go, "Well, is he gonna do it at the Olympic Games?

01:21:52.260 | "Can I do it in Paris?"

01:21:54.020 | He wanted to go to Paris.

01:21:55.820 | I mean, really, I mean,

01:21:56.940 | the last Olympic Games should have been it, shouldn't it?

01:22:00.220 | Should have been the final one.

01:22:01.940 | But he's gone, "No, I've got to do another four years."

01:22:04.580 | Two penalties are on the board already for the Korean.

01:22:07.220 | That Korean is really having a great go at Teddy Renner.

01:22:10.940 | - A bit of a lift on him.

01:22:12.620 | He's going after it. (laughs)

01:22:14.300 | - He's really going after it.

01:22:15.420 | You know, it's an amazing effort there from the Korean.

01:22:19.140 | And he's getting some last minute information.

01:22:23.260 | I don't know if you've ever seen his coach

01:22:25.340 | stood next to him like that, but it's amazing.

01:22:27.980 | He's six foot six, and he's about four foot six.

01:22:31.780 | (laughs)

01:22:32.860 | He's a real kid.

01:22:34.220 | - But full of passion.

01:22:35.060 | I love it.

01:22:35.900 | He's like screaming.

01:22:36.780 | - So a golden score.

01:22:38.580 | - How does golden score work, can you say?

01:22:40.060 | - So a golden score.

01:22:41.140 | So if it goes without any point on the board

01:22:43.380 | from a throw or a hold down or arm lock strangle,

01:22:47.820 | then it goes into golden score.

01:22:49.700 | So two Shidos on the board apiece.

01:22:52.220 | One more mistake now, and it's gonna be all over.

01:22:55.340 | - Oh, wow.

01:22:56.180 | - And that's it.

01:22:57.020 | Teddy Renner just manages to turn it on the Korean.

01:23:00.780 | And that went really against the run of play, didn't it?

01:23:05.780 | - Yeah.

01:23:07.300 | - 'Cause the Korean did better, you know.

01:23:08.900 | But you know, Teddy Renner is a winner.

01:23:10.860 | - Yeah.

01:23:11.700 | - And he says, right, okay, let's have more cheering.

01:23:14.780 | (laughs)

01:23:15.780 | - Finds a way to score.

01:23:17.940 | - And I have to say, you know, that even when he loses,

01:23:20.980 | you know, he's always graceful.

01:23:22.460 | - Yeah.

01:23:23.300 | - He doesn't like it, but he's graceful.

01:23:25.300 | - Yeah, there was so much love there, celebration.

01:23:27.300 | It was great.

01:23:28.140 | It's great to see.

01:23:28.980 | It's great that he's doing it again,

01:23:30.660 | going after it, chasing the gold medal again.

01:23:33.180 | - Well, he's chasing the gold medal.

01:23:34.380 | It's gonna be in Paris,

01:23:35.780 | which is gonna be even, you know, more fantastic.

01:23:39.100 | You know, he's already the greatest.

01:23:40.620 | You said, you know, what has he gotta do to be the greatest?

01:23:43.100 | He's already the greatest competitor Judo's ever known.

01:23:47.100 | And that was even, you know, with the great Tally, you know?

01:23:52.100 | So Tally was amazing as well.

01:23:56.100 | - Are you part of the commentating team for Paris?

01:23:58.180 | - I'm part of the commentating team,

01:23:59.780 | but it won't be for IJF because it's independent broadcast.

01:24:03.060 | - Have you ever had an athlete sort of come up to you

01:24:07.380 | and ask like, why'd you say that?

01:24:09.780 | Or like disagree with your commentary?

01:24:12.500 | - Do you know, I've gotta say that 99%,

01:24:15.100 | 99.9% of everybody is so grateful

01:24:19.180 | that I've commentated their fights all the way through.

01:24:22.220 | They know if they've messed up.

01:24:24.060 | So if I say something and I'm never disparaging,

01:24:27.860 | really disparaging, you know, but what I will say is,

01:24:30.820 | you know, it was a great throw by the other guy

01:24:32.500 | or it was a great match.

01:24:35.020 | And if they made a mistake, so if they walk out,

01:24:38.340 | they know that I will say something

01:24:41.220 | that will, you know, mean something.

01:24:43.540 | So nobody really moans about it.

01:24:45.580 | I try and talk the truth, if I can.

01:24:49.060 | - So who else would you consider as some of the greats?

01:24:53.820 | So I personally just,

01:24:55.260 | 'cause I love the standing Sanagi, Koga.

01:24:58.100 | So there's like, you know, the number of times

01:25:00.180 | you won the world championships and the Olympic games,

01:25:03.660 | but there's also like how you won

01:25:05.340 | and how you won into fights and what you did.

01:25:08.020 | You know, it's not necessarily about getting gold medals.

01:25:10.780 | It's about how you fought and how you represent the sport.

01:25:15.500 | And there's certain athletes like Inoue and Eliade

01:25:19.020 | that are going after the big throws.

01:25:21.660 | - Only after they don't wanna win by Ippon, you know?

01:25:24.700 | And I think that that is the difference

01:25:27.300 | is they're the ones that come out there.

01:25:28.900 | And it's a bit like, you know, when Tyson stepped out there,

01:25:33.300 | you knew what you were gonna get, you know?

01:25:35.580 | And if they went toe to toe,

01:25:37.460 | if Tyson had somebody going toe to toe,

01:25:40.340 | somebody was gonna get knocked out.

01:25:42.100 | And, you know, we got the same in judo

01:25:43.900 | when people go head to head and it's an open match.

01:25:47.220 | And I often talk about an open match.

01:25:49.380 | I say it's an open match.

01:25:51.980 | They're both trying to score.

01:25:53.380 | Somebody is gonna get scored on.

01:25:55.140 | Somebody's gonna go, you know?

01:25:56.740 | And that makes it exciting.

01:25:58.460 | And it's when they come out and they close up,

01:26:00.620 | you know, then that's not an exciting match.

01:26:02.420 | - Is there a case for Ohno, Shohei Ohno,

01:26:06.780 | three-time world champ, two-time gold medalist?

01:26:08.980 | - I think that, you know, judo-wise,

01:26:10.780 | he's gotta be one of the greatest

01:26:12.140 | because he had such versatility.

01:26:14.940 | He had, he could go right and he could go left.

01:26:20.260 | He could pick up, he could go to the ground as well.

01:26:22.940 | He won a lot of his earlier matches on the ground.

01:26:25.420 | I think his empathy, you know,

01:26:30.820 | and how he presents himself sometimes, he falls down.

01:26:35.020 | And I think that hopefully that should come

01:26:37.620 | with tutoring and, you know,

01:26:40.540 | of how to be a great champion after, you know,

01:26:43.740 | it's not just about what you do on the mat,

01:26:45.420 | but what you do off the mat as well.

01:26:47.140 | - So to you, a great champion is the whole package

01:26:49.980 | of how you present yourself when you lose,

01:26:52.740 | how you represent yourself just off the mat.

01:26:54.900 | - Yeah, I think it's how you present yourself afterwards,

01:26:57.860 | how you are with people, how much you can help people.

01:27:00.540 | I mean, people, kids, and, you know,

01:27:05.340 | they look up to these great champions

01:27:07.300 | because they want to be like them.

01:27:09.580 | So the worst thing is when you get somebody

01:27:11.780 | that's a bit of an arse

01:27:13.540 | and they're not presenting themselves in the right way.

01:27:17.060 | So I like to see somebody presenting themselves

01:27:19.180 | in the right way.

01:27:20.420 | And I think that it's something that can be taught.

01:27:23.140 | It's something that normally comes

01:27:24.420 | with a little bit of experience, a little bit of age,

01:27:27.380 | you know, and I like to think that I'm a little bit

01:27:30.220 | different now than I was when I was 19.

01:27:32.820 | Not that it was bad, you know, I just think I was just,

01:27:35.300 | you know, I see it often now, you know,

01:27:37.580 | just full of beans.

01:27:39.980 | - You're a beautiful work in progress.

01:27:43.340 | What about Nomura?

01:27:44.700 | Did I hear Nomura as three-time gold medalist?

01:27:50.060 | - Never lost an Olympic fight.

01:27:52.060 | So there's nobody-- - There's something there,

01:27:54.060 | right? - Yeah.

01:27:55.460 | Nobody ever done that, you know what I mean?

01:27:57.220 | So that's gotta be, it has to stand,

01:28:00.060 | he took two years off in between every Olympic games

01:28:04.260 | and came back, did the right amount of events

01:28:06.460 | to qualify for, not only did he, having to qualify,

01:28:10.300 | he had to qualify through Japan.

01:28:12.740 | Now Japan, remember, have got the greatest depth.

01:28:16.340 | So they got people coming through all the time,

01:28:18.860 | you know, and then he had to win the Japanese trials.

01:28:22.300 | I mean, we had a four-time world champion from Japan.

01:28:25.740 | This is when world championships was every other year,

01:28:28.540 | and this is Shozo Fuji,

01:28:32.140 | and he was the greatest middleweight of all time,

01:28:35.300 | and never got to participate in the Olympics

01:28:38.620 | because he lost the Japanese trials twice

01:28:42.340 | in two Olympic, you know, possibilities.

01:28:45.860 | So, you know, he had to qualify for Japan

01:28:50.860 | and then go to the Olympic games and then do it there,

01:28:52.980 | you know, so sometimes some of the best people in Japan

01:28:55.900 | can't get outside of Japan.

01:28:57.460 | Look at the situation they had with Abe

01:29:00.300 | and then they had Maruyama.

01:29:03.220 | Maruyama was, you know, and Abe were both the best by far

01:29:08.220 | in the under 66 kilos category.

01:29:12.340 | This is for the last Olympic games,

01:29:14.740 | and they sent one to the world championships,

01:29:17.300 | one to the Olympic games,

01:29:18.420 | and they both won gold medals, you know.

01:29:20.820 | - Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's why

01:29:22.540 | the All Japan Championships is, like, legendary.

01:29:25.660 | There's these battles, yeah,

01:29:28.180 | with Yamashita and all of them.

01:29:30.780 | - Well, Abe and Maruyama,

01:29:33.820 | they had a trials in the Kodokan.

01:29:36.780 | It was 26 minutes, I think it was 26 minutes it went.

01:29:42.460 | They were battling it out for 26 minutes.

01:29:44.980 | - That's great.

01:29:45.900 | If we can just go to, you've trained in Japan,

01:29:49.260 | what are those randoris like?

01:29:51.500 | What's that training like?

01:29:52.940 | - I touched on the danger.

01:29:57.460 | That danger of being thrown when you get hold of somebody

01:30:00.500 | or somebody gets hold of you.

01:30:02.340 | And I often reflect, I often talk about it

01:30:05.260 | when I'm commentating, you know,

01:30:06.500 | 'cause I can see immediately.

01:30:08.780 | You know, it's easy, isn't it?

01:30:09.620 | You know, if we're in the commentary chair,

01:30:11.180 | or if you're in the coach's chair,

01:30:12.980 | and you don't really understand totally,

01:30:15.420 | absolutely what's going on when you're being,

01:30:17.500 | somebody's being outgripped,

01:30:19.740 | and when they're in danger of being thrown.

01:30:21.860 | I mean, you know, if you're in danger of being thrown,

01:30:24.260 | the first thing you do is stick your backside out

01:30:27.100 | and defend by, you know,

01:30:28.820 | by not being in the position they want you to be in.

01:30:32.300 | All right, and so that's danger.

01:30:34.540 | You know, you feel the danger.

01:30:36.980 | And so in Japan, that was the place I used to go to train

01:30:41.700 | because I felt the danger,

01:30:43.700 | and so my defenses would be heightened.

01:30:48.700 | And so somebody that was,

01:30:51.580 | I went two years, one Olympic cycle,

01:30:54.780 | I went two years, two months

01:30:57.940 | without having a score on me in any competition.

01:31:02.940 | And then I went to one competition

01:31:05.820 | in the European championships, which I won,

01:31:08.620 | and I was struggling all the way through it,

01:31:12.300 | and got scored on three times in my pool of,

01:31:17.300 | you know, like my first pool of fights,

01:31:19.220 | and I was devastated.

01:31:20.260 | And I actually nearly lost the whole competition

01:31:23.500 | because I was more mortified about being scored on

01:31:27.140 | three times when I hadn't been scored on

01:31:29.420 | for two and a half years.

01:31:30.260 | I had this thing in my head about two and a half years,

01:31:32.620 | I've, you know, and then all of a sudden, right,

01:31:36.060 | I'm not unbeatable.

01:31:37.140 | And then you just, and you go,

01:31:39.660 | and I was almost lost it, completely lost it.

01:31:43.060 | Just so fortunate.

01:31:44.740 | Couple of things went my way and just came out,

01:31:47.820 | and I scraped and scratched my way to the final

01:31:51.020 | and won the final well, all right?

01:31:53.700 | But that was my best match, but I almost lost it.

01:31:56.940 | - Well, what do you do with the fact that if you go to Japan

01:31:59.020 | and you're getting, you're saying danger,

01:32:00.940 | like you're probably getting--

01:32:02.260 | - Getting thrown.

01:32:03.100 | - Getting thrown in Japan. - Yeah.

01:32:04.460 | - What does that do to your ego?

01:32:06.060 | - Well, again, it's my, you know,

01:32:07.700 | that was a winning ego that had to adapt.

01:32:11.540 | I remember we went to the Keisyo,

01:32:13.380 | which police dojo one time,

01:32:15.500 | and they wanted to see the,

01:32:18.220 | they created this groundwork competition

01:32:22.140 | because they wanted to see me do the juji,

01:32:26.660 | like how I went in and how I, yeah, the armbar, right?

01:32:30.180 | They wanted to see how I did it

01:32:31.820 | from underneath or over the top.

01:32:33.500 | And you'd just, they created this event.

01:32:35.900 | - Study the creature.

01:32:36.740 | - Yeah, they started it.

01:32:37.820 | So, and then winner stays on competition

01:32:41.100 | was happening at the Keisyo.

01:32:42.780 | So I did about seven, I think, seven in.

01:32:45.580 | And then my coach came in and said, "No, it's finished.

01:32:49.260 | That's it now, it's finished."

01:32:50.380 | You know, suddenly we realized what was going on.

01:32:52.740 | And I was going, "No, no, no, no, don't stop it like that."

01:32:56.900 | You know, and it was one of those moments

01:33:01.900 | where, you know, the boot was on my foot,

01:33:06.020 | you could say, you know,

01:33:06.940 | rather than the other side, the other way.

01:33:09.340 | 'Cause I had been to Japan in situation.

01:33:12.380 | I remember as a 16 year old, I got such a drumming

01:33:17.380 | from one of the Japanese guys, older students,

01:33:24.780 | and he had a gold tooth.

01:33:26.380 | And so he was gold tooth to me, you know,

01:33:29.540 | and he was my nightmare.

01:33:31.620 | And I remember kept coming out to fight him

01:33:35.140 | because he kept throwing me and I was crying

01:33:37.940 | and I was upset and I was like,

01:33:40.100 | and then that was another occasion where I got dragged away

01:33:44.180 | and I said, "No."

01:33:45.820 | So I wanted to go back and fight him.

01:33:47.740 | And I went back to the same dojo every year to fight him.

01:33:52.220 | He was on my mind.

01:33:53.980 | Morning, noon, night, he was on my mind.

01:33:57.100 | - Gold tooth was on your mind.

01:33:57.940 | - Gold tooth was on my mind, you know.

01:33:59.900 | And-- - You ever get him?

01:34:01.620 | - Two years later, I was, two years to me

01:34:05.100 | from 16 to 18 was totally different.

01:34:08.380 | 18 years of age, I was pretty competitive with him.

01:34:11.020 | And it was like, you know, I was standing up with him.

01:34:15.220 | 19, he was in the groundwork competition.

01:34:18.740 | - And that's when the switch happened.

01:34:22.060 | - Switch happened, you know, because I just,

01:34:24.660 | well, because I remember getting the arm lock

01:34:28.020 | and he didn't put it on immediately.

01:34:31.700 | I needed it to last, it had to last.

01:34:34.100 | - Sure, it had to last.

01:34:35.500 | - I spread it, the whole thing lasted

01:34:37.780 | as long as I could possibly get it.

01:34:39.980 | And it was a long memory as I was looking down at him.

01:34:44.060 | - And now he has nightmares about you.

01:34:47.380 | - Now he has nightmares.

01:34:48.220 | - I wonder what nickname he has for you.

01:34:49.580 | - I don't know, I'm hoping that he remembers me as--

01:34:53.260 | - He has a photo of you.

01:34:54.100 | - You know what, he probably doesn't say,

01:34:56.420 | just back of an eyelid, doesn't say a thing about it.

01:34:59.460 | - Well, I mean, can you just speak

01:35:02.580 | to that training with those folks, you know,

01:35:06.260 | you said crying, just the frustration of being thrown.

01:35:11.060 | - Yeah.

01:35:11.900 | - I mean, how do you, it's such a beautiful part

01:35:14.300 | of the process of becoming great.

01:35:16.780 | - Yeah, I think it is just something that you're,

01:35:20.420 | you know, that doesn't happen at this level.

01:35:22.980 | You know, we were talking about levels

01:35:25.100 | and then at this level, it never happened.

01:35:27.380 | And then I went out in my first European cadet

01:35:31.460 | and all of a sudden I wasn't this top guy,

01:35:36.060 | I was in the mix.

01:35:37.540 | And then I had to work myself to the top of that mix

01:35:39.940 | and then to the top of the next one, you know,

01:35:42.780 | 'cause I went to the European Senior Championships

01:35:45.500 | and, you know, again, you're not the top

01:35:47.460 | and, you know, you work your way to the top of that.

01:35:50.460 | And I think it is a frustration, you know,

01:35:52.300 | but I think it's that kind of hatred of losing

01:35:56.140 | and also being able to, you know,

01:36:01.140 | being out of control.

01:36:02.540 | I think that the first time,

01:36:04.020 | first Senior European Championships I fought,

01:36:06.620 | I fought Nevzorov, but he was only one of my contests.

01:36:09.780 | Then I had to fight a Frenchman for third place,

01:36:13.980 | but he totally outgripped me.

01:36:16.020 | And I remember I was more upset,

01:36:19.020 | though I won the contest,

01:36:20.780 | I was more upset that he totally out,

01:36:24.220 | he did outgrip me and I was more upset.

01:36:27.020 | And then I fought him a year later and outgripped him.

01:36:30.420 | All right, so it was one of those, you know,

01:36:33.300 | it was a learning process all the way through.

01:36:35.740 | - Yeah, that like frustration is like,

01:36:40.180 | whatever that does to your soul,

01:36:43.460 | the building up afterwards

01:36:45.420 | is what actually makes you better.

01:36:48.260 | It's fascinating.

01:36:49.100 | And you think there's in Japan, just killers there,

01:36:52.580 | they're like, just the world doesn't know about,

01:36:54.740 | they just-

01:36:55.940 | - Yeah, there's world champions in the dojo.

01:36:58.340 | You know, there's people that never make it out.

01:37:00.660 | You know, I remember we were training like so,

01:37:03.460 | and everybody that goes to Japan,

01:37:07.260 | all my friends that have been world Olympic champions,

01:37:12.260 | right, they all know what I'm talking about.

01:37:14.140 | They know exactly what I'm saying,

01:37:17.060 | is that when we go to the dojos there,

01:37:19.100 | we all get thrown by people that never come out

01:37:22.020 | to be world champions.

01:37:23.140 | You know, they're just in the mix

01:37:24.860 | or they're going through three years of university

01:37:26.900 | and then they go, we had a guy,

01:37:28.820 | we had a guy that came in, he came, he was a business guy.

01:37:34.460 | He came in with his suitcase and his briefcase like that,

01:37:37.180 | he's got his tie up like that.

01:37:39.460 | So he decides he's gonna come in and he gets changed

01:37:44.220 | and he's in his lunch hour.

01:37:47.500 | He's in his lunch hour, right?

01:37:48.620 | So gotta be quick.

01:37:49.860 | - Yeah.

01:37:51.220 | - So he comes in and he goes through,

01:37:53.020 | he's working his way through the whole of the British team.

01:37:56.180 | We're all lined up, right?

01:37:57.620 | He's just working his way through the whole

01:37:59.300 | of the British team and I knew it was my turn next.

01:38:01.540 | So I get hold of him and I throw him immediately.

01:38:05.820 | And then it was what we were talking about

01:38:08.340 | when it happens in the first few seconds of the practice.

01:38:13.340 | So then I had four minutes of him coming at me

01:38:17.140 | and I'm going up into the air and I'm twisting off

01:38:19.940 | and I'm like that.

01:38:21.380 | And then like everybody's laughing at the side of the mat

01:38:24.180 | or the whole British team,

01:38:25.140 | he's gone through the whole British team

01:38:26.460 | and then he, 10 minutes later,

01:38:29.220 | he's just tying his tie up like that,

01:38:31.860 | you know, and back to work like that.

01:38:34.300 | You know, imagine him sitting behind his desk

01:38:36.220 | in his computer.

01:38:37.860 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:38:39.980 | - I'm glad he didn't get out.

01:38:41.420 | (laughing)

01:38:43.660 | - Hopefully he listens to this.

01:38:46.340 | - Hopefully.

01:38:47.980 | - Anybody else I didn't mention as part of the greats

01:38:50.180 | that just kind of jumped in?

01:38:52.140 | - Kashiwazaki Sensei is my favorite of all favorites.

01:38:57.140 | He is what I would call a judo genius.

01:39:03.460 | I don't know if you can get him up here.

01:39:05.020 | Can we get him up?

01:39:05.860 | - Yeah.

01:39:06.700 | - So going to 1981 World Championships

01:39:09.700 | and I'll talk you through the great Kashiwazaki.

01:39:15.220 | He was one year in Great Britain

01:39:19.820 | and he was a guy that was so much a genius.

01:39:24.740 | All right, so you want the final of the under 60,

01:39:27.460 | 65 kilograms, there, the one at the top.

01:39:30.540 | This is him.

01:39:31.380 | He is two weight categories below my weight category

01:39:34.660 | that I won the World Championships.

01:39:36.500 | Same year, I won it.

01:39:37.940 | So this is, it's not,

01:39:41.700 | I'm not sure if this is going to show his final of.

01:39:45.140 | - This is the highlight.

01:39:45.980 | - I know, so watch this.

01:39:47.340 | This he did in the final of the world, right?

01:39:51.900 | - For people just listening,

01:39:52.740 | he did an incredible sacrifice throw.

01:39:55.820 | - Yep, and then he was on top for the Naoise

01:39:58.900 | and renowned for his groundwork

01:40:01.300 | and he was on top against a really strong Romanian guy.

01:40:06.300 | All right, so his transition was just phenomenal.

01:40:11.700 | - Yeah, let me go back and look at that,

01:40:13.660 | what just happened.

01:40:14.620 | - So he's just showing you.

01:40:16.100 | So he does this coachy thing just to create space.

01:40:20.900 | And it's his follow through into groundwork

01:40:24.980 | that is best of all.

01:40:28.380 | And then the Romanian, really strong, like I say,

01:40:31.460 | he'd gone all the way through to the final

01:40:33.020 | of the World Championships,

01:40:33.900 | winning most by Ipon, I think, the Romanian.

01:40:37.420 | And he's defending really, really well here.

01:40:40.540 | And you can see that how persistent.

01:40:43.860 | He knows exactly what he wants.

01:40:45.580 | He's just got to get his leg out.

01:40:47.220 | Now watch, he'll tie the arm up

01:40:49.140 | and then he'll pull the top leg towards him.

01:40:51.980 | And then he'll push the bottom one off.

01:40:54.260 | - Always working.

01:40:57.020 | - With both feet, always working, always working.

01:40:59.780 | Readjust the balance, still one leg trapped.

01:41:04.860 | Final of the World Championships,

01:41:06.100 | good referee because he's refereeing something here

01:41:08.860 | that's happening, that's going to decide as to whether.

01:41:11.980 | So he doesn't call it to stand it up at all.

01:41:14.780 | Watch him pull the top one now

01:41:16.340 | and he'll push the bottom one.

01:41:18.260 | - There's a calmness on his face.

01:41:21.420 | - Calm. - Which is great to see.

01:41:22.820 | - Calm, pushes the bottom leg, leg out, job done.

01:41:27.820 | All finished.

01:41:30.100 | This is him again.

01:41:30.940 | Watch this, this is another technique that he does.

01:41:33.780 | And then just, again, sacrifice directly in,

01:41:37.180 | directly into the Newaza.

01:41:38.780 | - Transition is everything, isn't it?

01:41:42.580 | - In judo.

01:41:43.420 | - Yeah.

01:41:44.260 | - Well, in anything really,

01:41:45.660 | but judo especially pays off.

01:41:47.660 | - Yeah, I mean, because we haven't got that long.

01:41:52.540 | I mean, we had more time here.

01:41:53.980 | They've just brought more time back.

01:41:55.620 | So we've got more time to transition in

01:41:58.220 | and to get the situation that we want

01:42:00.940 | and to get the attacking situation that we want.

01:42:04.380 | Because, you know, I remember I was teaching in America

01:42:08.900 | to some jiu-jitsu guys and they were saying,

01:42:11.820 | "Oh, we'll never give you our back."

01:42:14.420 | And I said, "With judo rules, certain situations,

01:42:18.300 | "it happens that, you know, when we try and do throws

01:42:22.700 | "where we're facing away from our opponent,

01:42:25.380 | "you know, so like, for example, Cienagis,

01:42:28.180 | "if they fail, then the back is there, you know,

01:42:31.580 | "and that's how we get the back.

01:42:33.060 | "And it's a different situation, you know,

01:42:34.900 | "than going on your back in the guard situation,

01:42:37.700 | "totally different."

01:42:38.540 | - Well, there are Travis Stevens,

01:42:40.100 | I don't know how familiar with his judo,

01:42:42.620 | but he's a really interesting example

01:42:44.420 | 'cause he competed at the highest level in jiu-jitsu as well.

01:42:47.340 | And his idea, he's a big Cienagis guy.

01:42:51.980 | And he basically threw all of that away.

01:42:55.820 | - In the jiu-jitsu?

01:42:56.900 | - In the jiu-jitsu.

01:42:57.820 | Like he took the sport from scratch for what it is.

01:43:02.300 | So he almost never did a standing Cienagis,

01:43:05.340 | Cienagis at all in jiu-jitsu.

01:43:07.620 | - No, because it would leave his back all the time,

01:43:09.700 | you know, if it failed.

01:43:11.340 | - Yeah, if it failed.

01:43:12.620 | - But he wouldn't have the same kind of grip

01:43:14.820 | on the judogi or the karate, the jiu-jitsu gi.

01:43:18.300 | - Yeah.

01:43:19.140 | - A little bit different.

01:43:20.300 | - And so you have to kind of consider the sport,

01:43:22.060 | the art of it, and also the competitors,

01:43:24.020 | the styles and the culture of the sport,

01:43:26.660 | if you want to win.

01:43:27.820 | If winning is the most important thing,

01:43:29.340 | then you're like, "All right, well, let's, you know."

01:43:31.700 | - No, but you learn the game, don't you?

01:43:33.620 | And that's what he did, he learned the game.

01:43:36.060 | You know, and I think that is credit to him,

01:43:38.540 | you know, and that's why I was saying about wrestling,

01:43:40.820 | you know, the wrestlers.

01:43:41.780 | I mean, good to learn the judo,

01:43:45.700 | and for what it is and the mechanics and how it works,

01:43:49.060 | and then learn the wrestling.

01:43:51.060 | I mean, I do the commentary as well for the freestyle,

01:43:53.540 | and I will be at the Olympics

01:43:55.260 | for the freestyle and the Greco-Roman.

01:43:57.580 | So, and I love the freestyle, absolutely love it.

01:44:00.940 | But freestyle is freestyle, judo is judo.

01:44:03.420 | I like to see people doing judo.

01:44:05.340 | - Yeah, but there's a rhyme to the whole combat thing.

01:44:10.980 | They're all, I mean, the body mechanics,

01:44:13.500 | it's all like fascinating echoes of each other

01:44:16.460 | in interesting ways.

01:44:17.540 | The details are different,

01:44:19.900 | but there's still two humans clashing.

01:44:24.580 | - Yeah, we've got some amazing crossovers

01:44:27.460 | with people like the Mongolians have come in,

01:44:31.380 | the Georgians, I mean, the Georgians do massive pickups

01:44:34.820 | and different techniques.

01:44:37.340 | And if you ask the fighters where they're grabbing the legs,

01:44:42.340 | a lot of them would say, some of the wrestling styles,

01:44:47.220 | the Georgians and the Mongolians might say,

01:44:51.020 | "Yeah, I'd like to be able to take the legs."

01:44:53.580 | But a lot of them just adapted.

01:44:55.900 | You get Iliadis, for example, he just adapted.

01:45:00.260 | So he thought, "I'll take my arm over the top

01:45:02.220 | "and I'll just rip them out the floor that way."

01:45:03.900 | You know what I mean?

01:45:05.300 | - They're still doing the big lifts,

01:45:07.020 | they're still doing the big gripping,

01:45:08.900 | but they just don't grab below the legs.

01:45:12.620 | It's weird, they figured it out.

01:45:14.940 | - And they figured it out like that.

01:45:16.500 | - Yeah, you would think it'd take a long time.

01:45:18.700 | No, it was like a month.

01:45:21.300 | - Yeah, no, exactly.

01:45:23.060 | - The highest level, which is crazy.

01:45:25.860 | So you mentioned jiu-jitsu a little bit.

01:45:27.340 | What to you is an interesting difference

01:45:29.700 | between jiu-jitsu and judo that you've observed?

01:45:32.940 | Because you're one of the greatest ever

01:45:36.220 | on the ground in judo.

01:45:38.380 | And so jiu-jitsu is primarily focused

01:45:44.380 | on similar type of stuff on the ground.

01:45:47.540 | So what to you is an interesting difference there?

01:45:49.500 | - They're a different approach,

01:45:50.780 | different time scale to them,

01:45:53.620 | and they have a different way in.

01:45:55.500 | So ours comes from a standing position directly in.

01:46:00.140 | We've got a time scale on it.

01:46:02.140 | So we have to, like the catch,

01:46:04.940 | what I always talk about the catch,

01:46:07.420 | because in judo terms,

01:46:09.220 | if you don't get the catch immediately,

01:46:12.220 | then the referee won't see the transition in

01:46:16.420 | and also the continuation from plan A, B, C, D,

01:46:21.420 | if something builds.

01:46:23.700 | So we have to build it.

01:46:25.660 | And we have to build it quickly.

01:46:28.060 | And I think in jiu-jitsu terms,

01:46:30.060 | you have more time to build.

01:46:32.540 | - Yeah, there's a kind of patience,

01:46:34.460 | like, "Oh, if this doesn't work out,

01:46:36.060 | I can try a different thing."

01:46:37.660 | With judo, there's like an urgency.

01:46:39.260 | - There's an urgency.

01:46:40.300 | - And there's a ref watching skeptically.

01:46:44.220 | So you better show that you're making progress.

01:46:47.260 | - You've got to show the progression.

01:46:48.740 | And that's why I always had a plan A, B, C.

01:46:51.740 | You see there with, that was 1981 there,

01:46:55.980 | the great Kashiwazaki had a progression.

01:47:00.740 | Everything was, he knew exactly where he had to be.

01:47:03.420 | It was feel, that wasn't by accident, it was trained.

01:47:08.420 | And I think that that transition there

01:47:11.100 | and taking control of somebody's mistakes.

01:47:14.540 | So somebody might have made a mistake or not hit properly,

01:47:18.540 | or your defense has caused them to make a mistake,

01:47:21.140 | and then you take advantage of it.

01:47:22.860 | And that is the difference.

01:47:24.940 | - So one of the side effects of that,

01:47:27.260 | I don't know what the chicken or the egg,

01:47:29.140 | but judo people on the ground are much more aggressive.

01:47:34.100 | So probably because of the urgency,

01:47:36.380 | but just like there's an intention

01:47:38.540 | behind the progress you're making.

01:47:40.980 | I think jujitsu is more relaxed.

01:47:45.580 | There's more a culture of just finding places to relax

01:47:50.100 | and think of different control and positions

01:47:52.300 | and take your time.

01:47:53.300 | And as a result, it's much, much less exhausting.

01:47:56.100 | So you can go for much longer.

01:47:57.860 | It feels like judo is exhausting.

01:48:02.100 | - It's that 10 second blast, isn't it?

01:48:03.700 | You know, it's like doing sprints all the time.

01:48:07.780 | You know, and that is really hard.

01:48:09.820 | And that's a special kind of condition you need.

01:48:12.140 | And you need to be able to catch it

01:48:13.980 | and know when to go and when not to go.

01:48:17.140 | And I think also, I was gonna ask you,

01:48:20.420 | you think it'd make a difference?

01:48:21.660 | I mean, certain jiu-jitsu,

01:48:24.140 | you can't just throw yourself on your back,

01:48:27.340 | you know, into the guard.

01:48:28.380 | You have to throw into the situation, you know?

01:48:32.060 | So you have got, I mean, I know Roger Gracie,

01:48:35.060 | he decided that he was gonna learn judo.

01:48:38.500 | He saw the importance of being able to throw

01:48:41.260 | for the transition in.

01:48:43.580 | And so he came to the Budokai

01:48:45.340 | and he was learning off Ray Stephens.

01:48:47.060 | And, you know, they were doing really a lot.

01:48:49.460 | - Yeah, well, he's a fascinating study

01:48:51.260 | because he does the most basic stuff.

01:48:54.500 | And he does it-- - But does it well.

01:48:56.020 | - Like we did, like another level of well.

01:48:58.700 | It's like Yamashita.

01:48:59.940 | Everyone knows what's coming with Roger Gracie.

01:49:03.380 | But he just does it anyway.

01:49:05.260 | I guess the best people in the world, it's crazy.

01:49:07.700 | He's like, everybody in jiu-jitsu at White Belt

01:49:10.780 | learns the techniques he's using.

01:49:13.060 | And he just does it. - Amazing, isn't it?

01:49:15.780 | But he has about 1,000 ways in?

01:49:17.660 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:49:18.660 | And in the 1,000 ways, there's in the details.

01:49:22.180 | So it kind of might even look the same to people,

01:49:24.340 | but there's, I mean, he finds a way to choke people.

01:49:27.580 | So he's on top of them mounted

01:49:29.460 | in a sort of judo pin position.

01:49:31.420 | And, you know, everyone knows what's coming next

01:49:34.900 | against the best people in the world.

01:49:36.740 | And you should be able to defend it, but nobody can.

01:49:40.220 | It's crazy.

01:49:41.060 | - I think there's the power element as well.

01:49:43.260 | You know, that you don't realize how, you know,

01:49:45.940 | when somebody is directed in a particular way,

01:49:49.980 | then you have that kind of element of absolute power.

01:49:53.660 | You can only feel like when Roger's doing a technique.

01:49:57.060 | I think that you would only feel it if he did it on you,

01:50:01.580 | you know, then you can feel it.

01:50:03.380 | It's not something that happens, you know,

01:50:05.980 | like so tricks is one thing,

01:50:08.660 | but actually being able to do something really well

01:50:11.980 | from a power point of view, you know,

01:50:13.700 | it's like you say, he only does those few things,

01:50:17.780 | but he does them really, really, really well.

01:50:20.140 | - Yeah, I don't know what that is about.

01:50:21.460 | Actually, judo pins is a very interesting case study as well

01:50:25.060 | because people are able to feel so heavy.

01:50:28.940 | One of the things judoka are able to do

01:50:30.660 | is pin extremely well.

01:50:33.220 | - Yeah.

01:50:34.060 | - And it makes you realize that it's not about the weight.

01:50:36.260 | It's about some kind of technique

01:50:39.020 | that makes people feel like they weigh 1,000 pounds.

01:50:43.140 | It's about weight distribution and change of balance.

01:50:47.420 | You know, a lot of people don't realize

01:50:49.660 | that there's huge changes of balance on the ground.

01:50:54.620 | Massive, you know, you know what it's like.

01:50:56.740 | I mean, you know, you're a jujitsu man

01:50:58.460 | and, you know, the detail of the techniques

01:51:02.500 | is what really interests me.

01:51:04.020 | You know, I mean, I'm always looking small ideas,

01:51:06.780 | you know, I'm always looking at the jujitsu

01:51:08.900 | and I just, it fascinates me.

01:51:11.100 | You know, I would have done jujitsu for sure,

01:51:13.940 | but I wouldn't have forgotten the judo way in

01:51:18.700 | to the techniques.

01:51:19.540 | You know what I mean?

01:51:20.380 | I think that you've got to differentiate the two,

01:51:23.700 | but I would have loved the jujitsu.

01:51:26.820 | I would have absolutely loved it, you know,

01:51:28.740 | but it wasn't as prominent then, you know.

01:51:30.980 | Where the newasa came from,

01:51:33.820 | it came from a mistake,

01:51:36.340 | me getting beaten in a particular contest.

01:51:38.740 | And I went, I'm not going to be beaten again on the ground.

01:51:41.980 | (laughing)

01:51:42.820 | That's how it happened.

01:51:44.340 | - Yeah, well, yeah.

01:51:45.300 | The story of your life is like a loss creates,

01:51:48.420 | the Phoenix rises.

01:51:50.820 | - Well, it was 1978 and it was, you know,

01:51:55.820 | it wasn't a mistake.

01:51:57.060 | It was a particular movement

01:51:59.300 | and I was fighting weight up from my normal weight,

01:52:03.740 | but I stayed in the same position for one second too long,

01:52:08.740 | got caught and-

01:52:10.260 | - Choked?

01:52:11.100 | - Sengaku, yeah, triangle.

01:52:12.980 | Triangle, triangle.

01:52:13.820 | - Triangle, wow.

01:52:14.780 | - And I said, I literally,

01:52:18.100 | just the same as I said to you when I said,

01:52:20.340 | I'm not going to drink anymore.

01:52:22.660 | I came off and I said,

01:52:23.860 | I'm never going to get caught on the ground.

01:52:25.820 | - Yeah, never going to lose on the ground ever again.

01:52:27.340 | - And I never lost in my whole competitive career again.

01:52:31.860 | - Oh, wow, but yeah, I shouldn't mention

01:52:34.900 | that there's nothing like a pin from a judo person.

01:52:38.420 | I don't actually know if people in jiu-jitsu

01:52:41.060 | have made sense of that, like loaded that in.

01:52:44.900 | - But it's not part of the game, is it?

01:52:48.340 | You know, the pin, it's submission.

01:52:50.780 | - Yeah, but, you know, control is part of the game

01:52:55.380 | and nobody controls a human body

01:52:58.260 | the way judo people do on the ground.

01:53:01.100 | Like, they have understood the science of control

01:53:03.820 | and I think that control is extremely useful

01:53:06.460 | in jiu-jitsu as well.

01:53:09.020 | It's just that people don't,

01:53:10.220 | 'cause there's so many other domains of exploration,

01:53:13.420 | but the-- - That's interesting.

01:53:14.700 | - I mean, just, especially when you apply jiu-jitsu

01:53:17.820 | to the fighting setting, so mixed martial arts,

01:53:22.020 | that control, that side control, that pin control

01:53:24.900 | is really, really, really important.

01:53:26.700 | But then you add punching to the thing

01:53:29.460 | and it becomes-- - That puts a whole different

01:53:31.580 | thing on it, doesn't it?

01:53:32.540 | - I mean, there's an alternate history

01:53:33.820 | where you would have been part of the early UFCs

01:53:36.700 | if time was a little different, you know?

01:53:38.780 | Maybe a few years later.

01:53:42.380 | 'Cause your style of judo and jiu-jitsu

01:53:48.020 | and the transitions and the aggression,

01:53:50.940 | all of that would have worked really well

01:53:52.500 | in the early UFCs.

01:53:53.580 | - I'm sure I was being set up at one stage

01:53:55.780 | by one of the graces.

01:53:58.220 | And that was when he was winning all the matches.

01:54:02.420 | But he came, him with a couple of the cousins

01:54:05.580 | to one of my seminars. - Nice.

01:54:07.420 | - Yeah, and he was one of the first ones, wasn't he,

01:54:11.500 | that, that's how I loved to see the kind of UFC

01:54:16.500 | because it was different martial arts, different skills.

01:54:20.380 | And, you know, I mean, he'd get close

01:54:22.780 | and he'd just choke 'em out or arm lock them

01:54:25.300 | or, you know, arm bar them.

01:54:27.460 | And that was, that was brilliant.

01:54:29.260 | You know, that was, for me, that was a revelation.

01:54:31.740 | That was how I saw it.

01:54:33.380 | - Yeah. - And--

01:54:34.220 | - It's a fascinating science experiment,

01:54:35.700 | which aspects of different martial arts work well

01:54:38.100 | and not when they clash together.

01:54:40.260 | And it did turn out that Newaza worked well.

01:54:44.060 | - Was the key, yeah.

01:54:45.100 | It was the key, wasn't it, yeah.

01:54:46.220 | - Yeah, it was a big missing link

01:54:48.460 | in our conception of fighting.

01:54:50.660 | It's the neutralizer of size

01:54:53.500 | and a lot of other components.

01:54:54.980 | And it just blew people's mind.

01:54:56.780 | Like, okay, it's not just about size.

01:54:59.300 | It's not just about big, big guys swinging hands.

01:55:04.300 | It's a lot of other components.

01:55:06.740 | And the groundwork is really, really important.

01:55:09.180 | And of course, there's a fujidoka

01:55:12.060 | that succeeded in the UFC since then,

01:55:15.200 | which is always interesting how they adapt without,

01:55:17.380 | you know, when you take off the gi,

01:55:18.700 | how can you still throw people?

01:55:20.700 | How can you still do control?

01:55:22.140 | How can you still take advantage

01:55:23.740 | of the transition on the ground?

01:55:25.700 | Ronda Rousey's a good example of somebody

01:55:27.540 | that took advantage of that.

01:55:29.220 | - Yeah.

01:55:30.300 | I think one of the biggest things for the judoka

01:55:33.460 | is we've never, you know, there's no strikes.

01:55:38.020 | And I think that's the biggest shock, if you wish.

01:55:43.020 | You know, when you get one--

01:55:46.100 | - Punched in the face.

01:55:46.940 | - Yeah, punched in the face.

01:55:48.100 | And you're not used to that.

01:55:50.540 | You know, that's not what we're used to.

01:55:52.400 | - Some people are able to get punched in the face

01:55:54.100 | better than others, yeah.

01:55:55.540 | - For sure.

01:55:57.100 | Then again, there's Ronda Rousey

01:55:58.380 | who doesn't need to get punched in the face.

01:55:59.740 | She just gets in close, throws a person,

01:56:02.300 | armbar right there.

01:56:03.140 | - Yeah, and Kayla.

01:56:04.540 | You know, Kayla's one of them as well.

01:56:06.260 | - Kayla Harrison, that's another incredible person.

01:56:08.620 | She could've probably been just winning Olympic gold medal

01:56:11.580 | after Olympic gold medal, but chose to--

01:56:13.900 | - Whatever, you know, she decides.

01:56:15.720 | I mean, Ronda as well, you know,

01:56:17.220 | whatever they decided to do, they're great athletes.

01:56:20.300 | Yeah, they hate losing.

01:56:21.820 | I don't know anybody that hates losing

01:56:24.120 | more than those two.

01:56:24.980 | - Yeah.

01:56:25.820 | - They don't like it.

01:56:27.500 | - And Kayla Harrison, like, I don't know anybody

01:56:29.300 | that works as hard as her.

01:56:30.580 | That's a crazy, crazy, crazy work ethic.

01:56:33.540 | Well, let me ask you about training.

01:56:35.180 | Again, Jimmy Pedro said he learned a lot from you.

01:56:39.200 | He learned how to do a tai toshi and the armbar jiu-jitsu.

01:56:45.140 | But he also learned from you training methodology.

01:56:47.840 | So what's he talking about?

01:56:50.900 | He told me about this.

01:56:52.060 | What's your approach to training throughout your career

01:56:55.940 | and as it developed?

01:56:57.420 | - I always wanted to train harder than anybody else.

01:57:00.780 | I still train now every day.

01:57:02.460 | If I don't train, do something.

01:57:05.100 | I do an hour of my physical work

01:57:07.900 | and I still go on the mat a little bit.

01:57:09.420 | You know, I'm 65 now.

01:57:11.060 | So I'm not doing really heavy stuff on the mat.

01:57:15.020 | But I still like to train.

01:57:16.540 | And when I was 21, 20, up to 30,

01:57:19.880 | I was one of the best trainers.

01:57:22.040 | But, you know, Jimmy Pedro

01:57:23.900 | was one of the best trainers as well.

01:57:25.720 | He was one of the, he's one of your dream athletes.

01:57:29.500 | You know, when Jimmy Pedro stepped through your door

01:57:32.580 | and he was just a kid.

01:57:33.620 | You know, he was like, he was just young

01:57:35.340 | when he stepped through my door.

01:57:37.820 | And I had a lot of full-time trainers.

01:57:39.780 | So I had up to 20 really good athletes

01:57:42.900 | that were training hard.

01:57:44.240 | And I only wanted hard trainers.

01:57:46.340 | Give me 10 that trained hard

01:57:49.040 | rather than your one prima donna that, you know,

01:57:51.320 | you're skillful, the one that, you know, could do it.

01:57:55.580 | I just, I wanted 10, you know, or 20 really hard trainers

01:58:00.580 | because you can do so much with them.

01:58:03.640 | You can make champions.

01:58:05.260 | You can make them world champions.

01:58:07.400 | You know, if you've got somebody that was a special talent

01:58:10.160 | and they wanted to work hard,

01:58:12.520 | then you had a special athlete.

01:58:14.000 | - When you say hard trainers, what do you mean?

01:58:15.880 | Are these people that just, like,

01:58:18.340 | every single day are able to just grind it out,

01:58:20.620 | do it around the door, do the training,

01:58:22.020 | do the boring things, just keep coming back?

01:58:24.380 | - Yeah, when the going gets tough, you know,

01:58:25.940 | and I think that was him.

01:58:28.300 | He had a special mentality and, you know,

01:58:30.700 | and the thing is, you see,

01:58:31.760 | when you've got him in your dojo, all right,

01:58:34.340 | even when you're tired, when somebody's tired and when,

01:58:36.860 | you know, what an example to the others.

01:58:39.180 | So he'd pull the other ones in as well, you know?

01:58:42.840 | So I had somebody that when everybody was tired

01:58:47.160 | and everybody was sick of it and everybody just wanted,

01:58:50.600 | you know, and he'd still be there, you know,

01:58:52.360 | so they had to do it.

01:58:53.920 | So that was, for me, a win-win, you know?

01:58:57.680 | So I had all the Americans, actually.

01:59:00.520 | I had Bobby Berland and I had Michael Swain

01:59:03.640 | and I had Ed Liddy and I had them all coming to visit me

01:59:08.080 | at different times.

01:59:10.440 | Jimmy was there, you know, they wanted to be the best.

01:59:14.500 | In the end, we had such a great club atmosphere,

01:59:18.260 | they wanted to come for the hard work.

01:59:22.500 | And they knew that if they came,

01:59:24.300 | they were going to be dragged out

01:59:25.700 | and we were going to do physical training

01:59:28.020 | and it was physical training like they hadn't done before,

01:59:31.020 | but it wasn't just a physical training,

01:59:32.420 | it was the judo and the skill side of it as well.

01:59:36.620 | And so I always had a great empathy

01:59:39.280 | with the US team, Olympic team.

01:59:42.960 | So a lot of your Olympic medalists

01:59:45.120 | have been through with me, you know,

01:59:47.160 | and so I'm proud of that because we had, you know,

01:59:49.720 | some great times and they're still great mates now.

01:59:52.160 | And so in New York, in a couple of weeks' time,

01:59:56.580 | I'm going to have everybody who's going to be there.

01:59:58.720 | They're all coming in.

01:59:59.800 | - All old friends.

02:00:01.120 | - All old friends.

02:00:01.960 | - And new friends.

02:00:03.080 | - What's a tough week look like at your peak?

02:00:07.120 | Physical training, randori, is there days off?

02:00:12.120 | Are you training like twice a day?

02:00:14.320 | - Twice a day.

02:00:15.160 | So we do the preparation training, we do the running,

02:00:18.320 | we do the weight training,

02:00:19.340 | we do the skills in the morning as well.

02:00:22.200 | The skills is, for me, one of the biggest advantages

02:00:26.600 | that any full-time trainers can have.

02:00:29.640 | Because what happens is, is that with most clubs,

02:00:33.000 | you're trying to fit everything into that hour and a half

02:00:35.520 | or two hours, you know, you fit your skills,

02:00:38.080 | you fit your physical training and your sparring

02:00:42.680 | and your, you know, everything's in there, all grouped in.

02:00:45.880 | So the biggest advantages of having a full-time group

02:00:50.380 | is that you can split your skills

02:00:52.600 | and your skills lay your foundation.

02:00:55.340 | So the biggest advantage is being able to work

02:00:58.080 | specifically on things without having to worry

02:01:01.720 | about getting to do your free, you know, your randori

02:01:06.400 | or your sparring, or then you gotta go out for,

02:01:09.560 | you just do the skills.

02:01:11.120 | - Well, when you talk about skills, like what is,

02:01:13.240 | say your specialty is Itai Toshi, what,

02:01:16.400 | are we talking about Uchikomi doing a bunch of fist,

02:01:19.720 | working with bands, are you doing throws,

02:01:21.720 | are you actually just having conversations

02:01:23.560 | about like specific, like tiny details of throws,

02:01:26.680 | like what does skills mean?

02:01:27.960 | - All those things about doing your repetition practice,

02:01:30.640 | making sure the repetition's correct,

02:01:33.160 | you know, there's good repetition.

02:01:34.600 | - So when we say good repetition, does it,

02:01:36.760 | Uchikomi, when you're just fitting the throw

02:01:38.600 | versus doing the throw, where do you land on the value?

02:01:41.520 | - And getting it moving, you know,

02:01:42.680 | so one of the biggest, most important things

02:01:44.440 | is getting it moving.

02:01:46.200 | If we do something static, again, it's that static target,

02:01:49.440 | you need to get it moving.

02:01:50.680 | So you need to do a repetition

02:01:52.440 | and also you need to do a correct repetition,

02:01:55.340 | because if you're doing a hundred repetitions

02:01:58.320 | that are not correct and repetition's under pressure,

02:02:02.480 | too much pressure without somebody overseeing those skills

02:02:07.120 | to make sure that you correct the skills.

02:02:10.400 | 'Cause if you're doing a skill,

02:02:11.240 | if you're doing it 99 times incorrectly, all right,

02:02:15.880 | then repetition doesn't make perfect,

02:02:18.320 | repetition makes permanent.

02:02:21.140 | So you're gonna make it as perfect as you possibly can.

02:02:23.840 | So actually that skills group there

02:02:26.960 | is the most important thing.

02:02:28.080 | And what I used to do is oversee it.

02:02:30.740 | So I'd oversee it to make sure that it was done properly.

02:02:33.760 | - So you're watching the footwork,

02:02:35.600 | you're watching the gripping,

02:02:37.200 | and then just constantly adjusting people.

02:02:40.440 | - I'll give you an example.

02:02:42.080 | Jimmy Pedro, Jimmy was one of the hardest

02:02:44.600 | when he was 19 years of age, right?

02:02:46.640 | So I was, he always asking me to practice, always.

02:02:50.680 | So he's always on me all the time.

02:02:53.000 | So I'd do groundwork with him.

02:02:54.360 | And could I put him on his back?

02:02:57.000 | No, I was all on him and he'll tell you,

02:03:00.680 | but he was just, wouldn't go.

02:03:02.800 | He was just, he was gonna be great, without a doubt.

02:03:06.720 | All right?

02:03:07.760 | So I wanted everybody on with him, everybody.

02:03:10.680 | So everybody went on with him,

02:03:12.360 | and so it only improved their game and it improved him.

02:03:15.840 | And then with small technical things

02:03:18.240 | that have stayed with him that we were doing,

02:03:20.700 | with the Juji Katami that was passed on to Kayla,

02:03:23.200 | and then gone on to Ronda.

02:03:24.800 | And it's all small things that I can see sometimes

02:03:28.640 | that it's passed on.

02:03:30.840 | - What about the Tai Otoshi?

02:03:32.000 | He said he learned a lot from you from that throw.

02:03:34.400 | - And he does it differently.

02:03:35.480 | - And so I should mention that's one of the trickier throw.

02:03:39.640 | I mean, I still don't understand Tai.

02:03:42.320 | - It is a tricky throw.

02:03:43.440 | - I don't understand.

02:03:44.280 | So for people who don't know it,

02:03:46.320 | boy, how would you even explain it?

02:03:49.160 | It doesn't make any sense.

02:03:50.280 | It's when you just look solo,

02:03:54.880 | the movement you make is quite simple,

02:03:58.080 | but how you get person to be off balance,

02:04:01.200 | how you actually get them to be thrown.

02:04:04.360 | And when you do throw it successfully,

02:04:06.680 | it looks like a whipping motion that's effortless.

02:04:10.040 | It makes no sense.

02:04:11.040 | - It makes no sense.

02:04:12.320 | Other than it's every technique starts with the hands.

02:04:16.160 | So it's what we call Kazushi,

02:04:17.600 | and you're pulling somebody off balance,

02:04:19.720 | getting them moving, pulling them off balance.

02:04:22.640 | Tai Otoshi means body drop.

02:04:24.160 | So it's basically two legs across your partner's body.

02:04:29.160 | I've got my back to you, all right?

02:04:31.760 | And I've already pulled you off balance with my hands.

02:04:34.720 | And then I'm going to just flex my legs up

02:04:36.920 | just as you're coming onto my back.

02:04:39.120 | And then you're going to go over.

02:04:41.040 | You know, if I coordinated all right,

02:04:42.960 | if it doesn't get coordinated right,

02:04:45.560 | then you're going to come right on my back

02:04:47.560 | and try to rip my arm off, you know?

02:04:49.160 | So yeah, I've got to get it right.

02:04:50.840 | - What was, if you can convert it to words,

02:04:53.960 | some secret ingredients that allows you to pull it off

02:04:58.640 | at the highest levels, the Tai Otoshi?

02:05:01.400 | - The hands start every technique.

02:05:05.000 | So getting the repetition right, first of all.

02:05:08.000 | So you need to get the repetition right,

02:05:10.000 | you need a good partner.

02:05:11.520 | So actually training your partner to react in the right way

02:05:15.600 | is just as important as learning the throw.

02:05:18.440 | So actually what happens is, you know,

02:05:20.480 | we could get a lesson of beginners.

02:05:23.240 | We teach the throw and then go, right, off you go.

02:05:27.560 | And 90% of them will get it wrong

02:05:30.080 | because their partner's not reacting in the right way.

02:05:32.560 | So half of it is to get the person to react as they should.

02:05:37.080 | So if I was doing it with you, you and I,

02:05:40.200 | first thing I'd teach you to do

02:05:42.000 | is to react the way I want you to react.

02:05:44.520 | And then I'd react the way that you want me to react.

02:05:47.720 | All right, so then we'd have success with it

02:05:49.920 | rather than you leaning back in the wrong way

02:05:53.280 | or resisting or frightened you going over.

02:05:56.520 | So, you know, so actually that's why nine times out of 10,

02:06:00.680 | people get the technique wrong.

02:06:02.240 | - It's actually fascinating to me

02:06:03.360 | 'cause in the United States where I came up,

02:06:05.880 | Judo, I mean, the level of Judo is not comparable

02:06:08.680 | to the level of Judo in the rest of the world.

02:06:12.240 | Of course, the Pedro Center is an exception to that.

02:06:16.160 | - Certain athletes, yeah.

02:06:17.240 | It's a certain athletes, like when I trained recently

02:06:21.640 | with Jimmy Pedro, it's like even like the 16-year-old kids

02:06:25.600 | are just all deadly.

02:06:27.360 | So it was terrifying.

02:06:29.100 | But, you know, I remember the Russian national team

02:06:33.800 | came through Philadelphia.

02:06:35.760 | And one of the things that really impressed me

02:06:38.240 | is just how much easier Judo was, training Judo with them.

02:06:41.800 | They moved correctly.

02:06:42.920 | As like Uke said, as the people getting thrown,

02:06:46.280 | every aspect of their body movement was correct

02:06:50.440 | in terms of it felt right to be throwing them,

02:06:53.160 | to be training with them, everything about the gripping,

02:06:55.480 | about the position of their hips,

02:06:56.860 | about the shoulder, everything.

02:06:58.520 | It was fun.

02:06:59.600 | It was easy.

02:07:01.200 | And like, and I always felt like I was learning.

02:07:03.480 | So I think all of that is loaded in, I guess,

02:07:06.660 | into proper training.

02:07:08.240 | So you're developing through the throws,

02:07:10.000 | you're developing the right technique.

02:07:11.440 | - Yeah, you have to develop between, you know,

02:07:14.360 | I always had training partners that I trained with

02:07:17.320 | up to each Olympic games.

02:07:18.880 | And we worked together for the, we did the skills together.

02:07:22.960 | And then we, you know, we worked together

02:07:25.600 | in order to make techniques work.

02:07:27.720 | And we got it moving as quickly as we could.

02:07:30.560 | And one of the worst things that I see is,

02:07:33.640 | and I see a lot of YouTube stuff with coaches.

02:07:37.160 | - Here we go.

02:07:38.000 | - Ah, don't even start me on that.

02:07:40.680 | Don't even start me on that.

02:07:42.120 | But, you know, you're laughing

02:07:46.640 | because you know what I'm talking about, right?

02:07:49.680 | - No, I'm actually laughing

02:07:50.760 | 'cause I'm enjoying you talking trash.

02:07:53.080 | But you're talking about technique.

02:07:57.560 | - Yeah, just, well, you know, the coaches

02:08:00.960 | and their clipboard guys, you know,

02:08:03.000 | with the clipboards and the stopwatches.

02:08:04.760 | And, you know, they got these kids running up

02:08:06.800 | and down the mat and then doing Uchikomi

02:08:10.680 | of something that's technically incorrect,

02:08:13.720 | you know, 10 times.

02:08:14.840 | And then running up and doing another 10 at the other side,

02:08:18.000 | you know, and actually mixing everything together.

02:08:21.200 | And it's just a mess, you know, just technical mess.

02:08:24.920 | - That said, some of it is conditioning type stuff

02:08:28.120 | that you were doing.

02:08:28.960 | So what is like the hardest type

02:08:30.720 | of physical conditioning you were doing?

02:08:32.560 | - Probably ran too much, you know, when I was a kid.

02:08:35.720 | If I could go back now, I wouldn't run as much.

02:08:38.880 | And I ran hard and I ran strong.

02:08:41.160 | And I remember doing London Marathon one time

02:08:44.760 | and I said, "I'm never gonna do it again."

02:08:47.920 | I've never.

02:08:49.680 | But I ran, you know, and I was trying to,

02:08:52.680 | the problem was when I did the London Marathon

02:08:55.120 | is I was trying to beat three hours.

02:08:57.160 | - It's that desire to win again.

02:08:58.000 | - It's totally insane, you know, it was insane.

02:09:00.840 | And I went out through half marathon

02:09:04.280 | in what I thought was a good time.

02:09:05.720 | Anyway, I got to 16, 17 miles

02:09:08.240 | and totally blew and--

02:09:10.160 | - So you went out too fast.

02:09:11.480 | - Yeah, I went out too fast.

02:09:12.480 | - And then you just--

02:09:13.680 | - I died, absolutely.

02:09:15.560 | - Just.

02:09:16.400 | - I died, I got in, I crossed the line.

02:09:20.280 | I remember seeing this bridge over there, right?

02:09:22.960 | And the bridge, it was the finishing line over the bridge.

02:09:26.680 | And I had to get, it was the longest bridge

02:09:28.520 | I've ever, ever walked over.

02:09:30.920 | It was like walk, run.

02:09:32.640 | So I got over the bridge

02:09:34.080 | and I took one step over the line like that.

02:09:37.600 | And there was a guy over there

02:09:38.960 | and he was trying to rush everybody through, you know,

02:09:40.960 | and he was going, "Come on, come on, come on."

02:09:42.280 | It was people behind me, "Get, get your hands off me."

02:09:46.160 | (both laughing)

02:09:47.960 | - Yeah.

02:09:48.800 | - "Get your hands off me now."

02:09:49.840 | Like that, 'cause we're gonna fall out, you know?

02:09:52.120 | And I couldn't move, I couldn't move.

02:09:56.320 | I was white.

02:09:57.880 | And--

02:09:58.720 | - It was amazing that you made it to the finish line though.

02:10:01.480 | - I did, I got over there.

02:10:03.480 | And, you know, yeah, Donald Duck passing me was a tell.

02:10:08.320 | - Oh, there's a person dressed as Donald Duck?

02:10:10.720 | - Donald Duck, yeah.

02:10:11.800 | But the thing was, I still crossed over 338.

02:10:16.720 | I crossed over 338, but I lost 38 minutes

02:10:19.480 | in the last four miles.

02:10:21.200 | - So that bridge, longest bridge ever.

02:10:23.760 | So you regret the run?

02:10:24.600 | - So anyway, I would do the running a little bit differently

02:10:27.360 | but we ran, we ran hard.

02:10:29.360 | We did the weight training, we did good weight training.

02:10:31.840 | It was all conditioned.

02:10:33.400 | So, I mean, it was never the same training all the time.

02:10:36.360 | So it was always, we'd have certain phases building up.

02:10:41.360 | It was scientifically done.

02:10:42.800 | It wasn't just out there, run, weight training,

02:10:46.040 | judo, same judo all the time.

02:10:47.960 | It was always pretty scientific.

02:10:50.320 | - Good variety.

02:10:51.240 | - It was a good variety and it had buildup

02:10:53.920 | and it had a speed phase and it had a power phase

02:10:56.160 | and it had, you know, like a base condition.

02:10:58.720 | - What about the Randoi?

02:11:00.400 | Was there a method to the madness there?

02:11:03.520 | How much Randoi did you do?

02:11:04.960 | - A lot.

02:11:06.240 | So the most important thing for me,

02:11:08.720 | I mean, I see now that there's a lot of people out there

02:11:12.480 | that are not getting enough Randoi.

02:11:14.200 | They're not Randoi-ing enough.

02:11:16.400 | And there's a lot of sports science people

02:11:19.280 | and they're running and they're weight training

02:11:21.160 | and they're doing it all to death.

02:11:23.480 | And there's not enough judo.

02:11:25.640 | And the only ones, you know, like you have a look

02:11:28.100 | at some of the Eastern block countries

02:11:30.520 | that are getting together, they're having these mass camps

02:11:33.960 | and the Japanese, they have, you know,

02:11:37.920 | just massive people that they can do there.

02:11:39.960 | They're doing probably 50, 60 Randois a week.

02:11:44.760 | - Wait, what?

02:11:45.600 | - 50 or 60 a week.

02:11:47.720 | - Wow.

02:11:48.720 | - The average person is getting together.

02:11:51.280 | I mean, when I was doing Randois,

02:11:53.200 | when I went to Japan, it was just purely

02:11:56.080 | for 60 Randois a week.

02:11:59.140 | - How much is each one?

02:11:59.980 | How long is it?

02:12:00.860 | - So they were five minutes then.

02:12:02.740 | They're four minutes now, but--

02:12:03.980 | - That's a lot, especially given the level

02:12:05.820 | of the competition there.

02:12:07.780 | - Well, you can do it in Japan because it's fairly light.

02:12:10.540 | If they throw you, they throw you.

02:12:12.100 | You throw them.

02:12:12.940 | - So there's like a level of, like you're moving

02:12:15.780 | at like a close to a hundred percent,

02:12:17.420 | but the actual power and the force is not quite--

02:12:20.500 | - Different in Korea.

02:12:21.860 | Korea was harder.

02:12:23.620 | It was more physical.

02:12:25.220 | So you couldn't do 50 Randois in Korea.

02:12:27.860 | You'd die.

02:12:29.600 | Yeah.

02:12:30.440 | So you'd do 30.

02:12:31.260 | - 50, 60 Randois, wow.

02:12:32.800 | - But you need the Randois, and so I chased the Randois.

02:12:36.680 | So I chased them into training camps.

02:12:38.680 | I traced them all over my country.

02:12:40.240 | So I was getting 40 to 50 a week in my club,

02:12:44.640 | and then I would go to training camps and add more.

02:12:49.340 | And I honestly don't think that they do enough now.

02:12:54.440 | A lot of countries.

02:12:55.360 | - Somebody who doesn't know Randoi is live training, so.

02:12:57.900 | - Yeah, sparring.

02:12:59.040 | - Was there a few people you remember

02:13:00.920 | that were just like really tough to go against?

02:13:03.360 | You mentioned Gold Tooth.

02:13:05.440 | Is there others like it?

02:13:06.280 | - Gold Tooth was pretty horrific.

02:13:08.060 | - Yeah.

02:13:08.900 | (laughing)

02:13:10.920 | Oh, you got him in the end.

02:13:11.760 | - He was pretty all right.

02:13:12.600 | I got him in the end, and yeah.

02:13:15.080 | - Is there like, I suppose I should say not just tough,

02:13:19.960 | but just good training partners that you like?

02:13:21.680 | - Great training partners.

02:13:22.540 | I remember when Nishida, and Nishida was,

02:13:25.200 | I mentioned him earlier, said he was one of the best.

02:13:28.180 | I mean, he was just such a great technician.

02:13:30.780 | So I would go there to his dojo,

02:13:33.960 | and he'd ask me to practice.

02:13:35.480 | And he'd always, he'd finish the practice,

02:13:37.720 | and you know that he would always say,

02:13:39.520 | "Another one, we'll do another one," right?

02:13:41.960 | So you'd go, "Oh, yeah."

02:13:43.520 | Because you had to make out that you weren't that bothered,

02:13:47.240 | that you had to do another one.

02:13:48.960 | So you do another one back to back,

02:13:50.280 | and then he'd go sometimes, "Let's do another one."

02:13:52.680 | So you'd end up doing 15 minutes with the same guy

02:13:55.440 | who could possibly throw you at any time,

02:13:57.440 | you know, and that was hard, you know?

02:13:59.920 | But I remember those particular guys,

02:14:04.520 | and there were plenty of those.

02:14:06.120 | - What do you do with the exhaustion

02:14:07.360 | that you're feeling in those?

02:14:08.800 | Like, how deep did you go in terms of like--

02:14:11.600 | - You have to dig deep.

02:14:12.440 | And I think that that was the great thing

02:14:14.980 | about having certain, like European training camps

02:14:18.560 | were more physical.

02:14:20.200 | So I remember that we would have European training camps

02:14:24.600 | where you'd fight Germans, and then the Dutch,

02:14:27.120 | and then the French, and then the Russian,

02:14:30.840 | or you'd have all sorts of different styles

02:14:34.680 | and people there to fight.

02:14:36.640 | And that was something then you'd have to dig in

02:14:40.800 | at a different place, come out of there.

02:14:43.080 | - Well, where do you go mentally when you,

02:14:45.560 | how many times have you gone there,

02:14:47.240 | or like you're really in deep waters exhaustion-wise

02:14:50.520 | in competition, actually?

02:14:53.640 | - Competition, it's happened.

02:14:55.480 | You know, so sometimes you go past

02:14:58.720 | where your forearms are absolutely blown.

02:15:01.160 | I remember the final of Czech tournament that we had

02:15:05.960 | and fought a Frenchman in the final,

02:15:09.960 | and my forearms were so blown, I couldn't shake his hand,

02:15:14.400 | you know?

02:15:15.240 | And then I remember they were solid, absolutely solid,

02:15:19.560 | and they had lactic acid in them.

02:15:21.400 | And I remember I stood on the rostrum this,

02:15:25.080 | and they were giving me things,

02:15:27.240 | and I couldn't grip them properly.

02:15:29.720 | So I was saying, put it under my armpit or, you know,

02:15:32.620 | chin, like that, I was trying to hold this.

02:15:34.960 | I couldn't hold anything, you know?

02:15:36.800 | So there are times when I really had to go really deep.

02:15:40.160 | I remember fighting two East Germans the same day,

02:15:43.800 | one of the competitions,

02:15:45.600 | and the number one and the number two East Germans.

02:15:49.020 | And that was another day where I had to really dig deep.

02:15:53.380 | - That's the fascinating thing

02:15:54.840 | about some of these tournaments is if you get,

02:15:57.840 | if you go full distance on several matches in a row,

02:16:01.400 | the way you're seeing in the finals

02:16:03.680 | are two people that have like fought a lot that day.

02:16:07.360 | - Yeah, and we have golden score now, you know?

02:16:09.720 | So we see a lot of guys, you know,

02:16:11.460 | that going into golden score,

02:16:12.760 | and they've done one contest in four minutes,

02:16:15.040 | and then they go another four minutes,

02:16:16.360 | and then, you know, we've had some go

02:16:18.020 | into a third four minutes.

02:16:19.520 | This is all back to back.

02:16:21.120 | It might be in the first round.

02:16:22.240 | It might be in the final, you know?

02:16:23.840 | And we've got some now that are coming out,

02:16:26.200 | and you can see the stats,

02:16:28.320 | and the ones that win in golden score.

02:16:31.200 | So we got a Japanese Hashimoto.

02:16:33.800 | He's the Japanese representative now,

02:16:36.880 | instead of Ono, 'cause Ono's finished.

02:16:39.320 | So Hashimoto's coming out.

02:16:40.840 | He was in a tournament last week, and he went--

02:16:43.120 | - Is there a good one to look up?

02:16:44.280 | - Yeah, just have a look at him.

02:16:46.400 | So Hashimoto's in white here, all right?

02:16:48.800 | And there's a great example there.

02:16:51.960 | Well, I'm glad we got onto that, you know?

02:16:53.720 | So, I mean, he has got great technique, Hashimoto.

02:16:57.060 | - Effortless, effortless.

02:16:57.900 | - There's the Tai Otoshi, all right?

02:16:59.480 | So you can see exactly what we're talking about there.

02:17:01.960 | Great timing.

02:17:04.340 | And again, you know, sometimes he backs them up to the edge,

02:17:09.560 | and then he'll wait for them to come back in,

02:17:12.580 | towards, they don't want to step out to get a penalty.

02:17:14.880 | - I guess that's a cross grip Tai Otoshi.

02:17:16.440 | I didn't see that wrong.

02:17:17.880 | - Yeah, cross grip, different grips.

02:17:19.680 | Oh, great examples there.

02:17:20.960 | Just what we were talking about.

02:17:22.380 | (laughing)

02:17:23.720 | - Making it look so easy, wow.

02:17:26.440 | - So he's gonna be their representative at 73 kilograms.

02:17:30.240 | Look at him, back him up again,

02:17:32.000 | and again, just catching him as he pushes back.

02:17:35.640 | - So push, push, push, and then--

02:17:37.280 | - Yeah, action reaction at his best there.

02:17:40.120 | And a slight change of direction,

02:17:42.920 | he sometimes goes down onto his knee there,

02:17:45.640 | which is Si Otoshi.

02:17:46.720 | It turns from Tai Otoshi, which is springing up,

02:17:49.480 | to Si Otoshi that's going down.

02:17:51.360 | - Oh, the title of the video is,

02:17:54.800 | his Tai Otoshi is a work of art.

02:17:57.240 | - Yeah, this is him at his best,

02:17:59.760 | showing him doing what he does best.

02:18:02.660 | But he had to go three times into golden score last week.

02:18:06.520 | And dig deep.

02:18:08.120 | And lost one of 'em, I think.

02:18:09.520 | - But you're still going at it.

02:18:10.880 | You talk about all those training sessions.

02:18:13.600 | Nikki, your wonderful wife, told me that you were looking,

02:18:15.920 | you were going all over, like from target to target,

02:18:18.040 | looking for workout clothes.

02:18:19.600 | 'Cause your luggage got lost.

02:18:21.520 | 'Cause you had to get a workout in.

02:18:23.280 | - Yeah, you know what, I just,

02:18:25.000 | I realize that if I'm a miserable git,

02:18:28.360 | right, then she'll get me into the gym, you know, so.

02:18:32.080 | And the thing is, is that I'm better

02:18:34.680 | if I get in there for an hour,

02:18:36.080 | and I just do something.

02:18:37.480 | At least 30, 35 to 40 minutes cardio,

02:18:41.280 | and then I do some weights.

02:18:43.120 | And more high repetitions.

02:18:45.000 | It's not so much heavy weights now,

02:18:46.960 | but more functional stuff.

02:18:48.360 | - I mean, you travel all over the world

02:18:49.720 | for the commentary of these competitions.

02:18:52.440 | So is it sometimes a challenge to figure out how?

02:18:56.320 | - Well, you know, during COVID,

02:18:58.800 | then they closed all the gyms.

02:19:01.120 | But we were still going out.

02:19:02.520 | We were one of the first ones out.

02:19:04.480 | The judo was some of the first out.

02:19:07.480 | The competitions were behind closed doors.

02:19:09.880 | So we were in the hotel.

02:19:11.720 | The gym was closed, so we couldn't use the gyms.

02:19:15.200 | So we had to look for other ways that we could work out.

02:19:19.960 | So most of the hotels that we were in

02:19:23.280 | were high-rise hotels.

02:19:25.120 | So we were in the steps.

02:19:26.800 | We were doing the steps right the way up, you know.

02:19:30.040 | So I started it, and so I started off with me going up,

02:19:34.680 | and then one or two of the others and the referees

02:19:37.240 | started to go up with me.

02:19:39.240 | So in the end, we'd have this trail of people

02:19:42.000 | going up the steps and down,

02:19:43.760 | and every place we went to, we had the steps.

02:19:46.800 | So yeah, that was an interesting situation.

02:19:50.200 | So we were sick of steps in the end.

02:19:52.520 | - What advice would you give to beginners,

02:19:56.680 | people starting out in judo,

02:19:57.920 | how to develop their game,

02:20:02.360 | how to find the beauty in the sport and the art of judo?

02:20:06.920 | - If you put 10 people in a room and said,

02:20:11.280 | "Right, get on with it," you'd have mayhem, right?

02:20:15.160 | And I think that whatever sport you're doing,

02:20:20.280 | you need good instruction, good teaching,

02:20:23.040 | and a good club atmosphere, you know,

02:20:24.960 | somewhere that's not so intense

02:20:28.440 | that winning is the only thing.

02:20:32.480 | And I think that if you look at 90% of the people

02:20:35.040 | that practice martial arts are doing it for pleasure,

02:20:38.120 | so they wanna get pleasure.

02:20:39.160 | So you need a club that's got a bit of a mixture.

02:20:42.080 | You know, they've got a direction

02:20:44.560 | to go into competition if they want,

02:20:47.400 | and then the rest, it's for fun and to enjoy it,

02:20:51.120 | but with really good instruction,

02:20:53.600 | because with really good instruction

02:20:55.240 | and a good foundation and a good base,

02:20:57.800 | you get more enjoyment because you have more success.

02:21:02.720 | And let's be honest, you know,

02:21:03.960 | the more success we have with something,

02:21:05.840 | the more we like it.

02:21:07.320 | - Yeah, and great technique is a way

02:21:08.880 | to really discover the beauty of the art.

02:21:11.240 | And so great teaching is really important there.

02:21:14.560 | - Great teaching is so important.

02:21:16.760 | - What does it take to get from the early days

02:21:21.520 | when you started judo to world-class level?

02:21:26.120 | - I think that with most, I mean, you do hear, don't you?

02:21:29.600 | You know, if somebody's been doing judo for eight years

02:21:32.280 | and then they're in, and I think it happened,

02:21:35.640 | one of the French, Chameo,

02:21:38.080 | she went to the Olympic Games in 2012

02:21:41.600 | and she'd been doing judo for eight years,

02:21:43.800 | but then she started to lose, you know,

02:21:45.440 | so she had a relative success early on

02:21:48.120 | and the Olympics was one of them.

02:21:49.440 | She got a silver medal,

02:21:51.240 | but then she went off the boil and then she came back

02:21:54.840 | and now she's been there for, she's still competing,

02:21:58.080 | and she's been there for well over 13 years

02:22:01.720 | at the very top.

02:22:02.600 | So I think that, you know, any foundation,

02:22:06.320 | it's like anything, if you lay a really solid foundation,

02:22:10.280 | generally it lasts longer.

02:22:12.320 | - Yeah, but that foundation, again, is that technique

02:22:15.160 | or is there, what does it take to build that foundation?

02:22:19.040 | - I think technique, you get away with murder, you know?

02:22:22.120 | With technique, you can get away with, you know,

02:22:25.960 | having bad condition, you know,

02:22:27.360 | but I mean, you get found out in the end,

02:22:30.200 | but you can, you know, you can go out

02:22:32.920 | and you can win certain things

02:22:34.920 | by doing really nice technique.

02:22:37.320 | But I think if you've got the mixture,

02:22:38.760 | if you've got the whole package,

02:22:39.760 | then you can, you know, go the whole way.

02:22:42.080 | - So for people who somehow don't know,

02:22:44.360 | you've commentated some of the greatest judo matches ever.

02:22:49.160 | You've done Grand Prixs, you've done all these events,

02:22:52.560 | Olympics, championship, everything.

02:22:54.840 | So what, just looking at the history of judo,

02:22:58.240 | what like stands out to you?

02:22:59.280 | What events stand out to you?

02:23:01.000 | What are some good memories that popped to your head?

02:23:03.920 | - I think, you know, some of the Paris tournaments

02:23:06.720 | are amazing because the crowd, they're there.

02:23:11.240 | You know, they're on the mat, they're all judoka,

02:23:13.640 | they're all, they're well-educated to the sport.

02:23:16.000 | Every time somebody twitches, you know,

02:23:18.480 | they're very biased towards their own,

02:23:20.280 | which is kind of you expect.

02:23:22.480 | But, you know, sometimes I haven't been able

02:23:24.160 | to hear myself speak.

02:23:26.160 | And that's very unusual.

02:23:27.240 | You know, you've got the headphones on

02:23:28.440 | and you're blocked out, you know.

02:23:30.000 | And like sometimes Teddy Rene's been walking out there

02:23:33.280 | and the crowd are going crazy and they're on their feet,

02:23:37.040 | you know, when somebody twitches and, you know,

02:23:39.600 | and then you get the crowd silences.

02:23:41.840 | We had one of those last week.

02:23:43.480 | You know, everybody's cheering their man

02:23:45.200 | and then bang, their man goes over.

02:23:47.040 | - Yeah, and there's silence.

02:23:48.520 | - Silence, nothing like that.

02:23:50.640 | And of course we were commentating,

02:23:52.560 | we were going, that was a bit of a crowd silencer,

02:23:55.480 | you know, but yeah, that happens.

02:23:57.800 | - Yeah, that is a surprising thing that,

02:24:00.200 | at least it was to me, that Paris and France

02:24:02.760 | is really big on judo.

02:24:04.000 | - Massive.

02:24:05.320 | You know, and there's always surprises.

02:24:07.480 | You know, it's like Paris is great.

02:24:11.760 | In Japan for the Olympic Games,

02:24:14.040 | the biggest surprise was Ono getting beaten

02:24:17.040 | in the team event.

02:24:17.880 | Now Ono's the greatest judo man,

02:24:19.720 | pound for pound, probably one of the best.

02:24:22.200 | And he won the Olympic title.

02:24:24.000 | And then they went into the team event against France

02:24:26.920 | and Ono lost to a, he's not run of the mill German,

02:24:31.880 | but the German, you know,

02:24:33.520 | it wasn't certainly Olympic title-esque.

02:24:37.360 | And beat Ono.

02:24:41.120 | - Yeah, well the team stuff is fascinating.

02:24:43.560 | - Yeah, it's fascinating, yes.

02:24:44.400 | - It changes the dynamics of the whole thing.

02:24:46.160 | - Yeah.

02:24:47.000 | - And it's, I mean, it's funny you say Paris,

02:24:48.920 | it really makes it really big deal

02:24:52.920 | that this Olympics is being held in Paris.

02:24:55.520 | - And they'll be the team to beat, French team.

02:24:59.560 | Because they have the best balance of the weight categories.

02:25:02.120 | They have the best balance with their people

02:25:04.480 | that are world and Olympic champions

02:25:06.400 | and qualified men and women.

02:25:09.960 | So three men, three women.

02:25:11.560 | They have the best balance out of anybody.

02:25:13.840 | - And an educated audience.

02:25:15.760 | - Educated audience, home grounds.

02:25:18.640 | - It's gonna be awesome.

02:25:19.480 | - It's gonna be mad.

02:25:20.320 | - It's gonna be super fun.

02:25:21.160 | - It will be super fun.

02:25:22.000 | - You nervous?

02:25:22.820 | - Yeah.

02:25:23.660 | - All right.

02:25:24.480 | - Do you get nervous?

02:25:25.320 | - I get nervous, I get nervous.

02:25:26.760 | - I do as well, I get really nervous.

02:25:27.600 | - I'm nervous right now.

02:25:30.040 | But given, especially 'cause it's the Olympics

02:25:33.680 | and you don't want to,

02:25:36.000 | you want to celebrate people properly, right?

02:25:38.960 | And it's like, it's everything for them.

02:25:40.760 | - Yeah.

02:25:41.600 | - And a lot of people, especially like the finals matches,

02:25:44.640 | it'll be watched millions of times,

02:25:49.800 | the highest of stakes, all of this.

02:25:51.800 | - Played over and over.

02:25:52.760 | - Yeah.

02:25:53.600 | - And I find that with mine,

02:25:55.120 | I'm now a little bit more careful.

02:25:57.760 | So I'll celebrate a massive throw

02:26:00.760 | and then have empathy to the one that's been thrown

02:26:03.640 | because it's not the best feeling in the world.

02:26:05.960 | Especially in Olympic finals.

02:26:08.480 | - Yeah.

02:26:09.320 | - Can you imagine that?

02:26:10.160 | - Yeah.

02:26:11.320 | - Must be terrible.

02:26:12.440 | - Must be terrible, yeah.

02:26:15.000 | - Just reflecting.

02:26:16.800 | So now I have a bit of empathy there

02:26:18.920 | and I just, I try and say the right things

02:26:22.840 | because they always do come up to me and say,

02:26:25.400 | you commentated my fights.

02:26:27.400 | - Yeah, you're the voice of the biggest triumphs

02:26:29.800 | and the biggest tragedies for these athletes,

02:26:32.440 | for the world that watches and admires these athletes.

02:26:35.040 | - No pressure.

02:26:35.880 | - You're the voice.

02:26:36.960 | Don't screw it up, yeah?

02:26:38.040 | - Don't screw it up.

02:26:39.720 | - Your voice is in my head when I watch these,

02:26:42.760 | you know, it's fascinating.

02:26:45.120 | It's fascinating.

02:26:46.080 | But you're a master of it.

02:26:48.160 | It's a huge honor that you would talk with me.

02:26:52.880 | Thank you for everything you've done

02:26:55.360 | for the sport of judo, for the Olympics,

02:26:57.600 | for just sports in general.

02:26:59.560 | Just celebrating greatness in all of its forms.

02:27:02.760 | Thank you for talking today.

02:27:03.720 | Keep going.

02:27:04.640 | I can't wait to listen to you in Paris.

02:27:07.360 | - Thank you for having me.

02:27:08.440 | - And it's just been an honor to be here with you.

02:27:12.520 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:27:15.080 | with Neil Adams.

02:27:16.080 | To support this podcast,

02:27:17.200 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:27:19.960 | And now, let me leave you with some words

02:27:21.920 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

02:27:24.480 | There's nothing outside of yourself

02:27:26.480 | that can ever enable you to get better,

02:27:28.320 | stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter.

02:27:31.080 | Everything is within.

02:27:33.440 | Everything exists.

02:27:35.360 | Seek nothing outside of yourself.

02:27:37.720 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

02:27:42.080 | (upbeat music)

02:27:44.680 | (upbeat music)

02:27:47.280 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset | Lex Fridman Podcast #427

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