Journalists’ Troubling Twitter Addiction | Deep Questions with Cal Newport

00:00:00.000 | We'll get through a lot here.

00:00:01.660 | I wanna start with a brief news reaction.

00:00:05.160 | As usual, I'm less interested in the details of the news

00:00:08.360 | as much as using this as a hook to get into a,

00:00:10.720 | maybe a slightly larger discussion of some bigger points

00:00:13.660 | going on with tech and culture.

00:00:15.160 | But I wanted to start with an article

00:00:17.800 | that a listener sent me that came from Pew Research.

00:00:22.800 | All right, so it's an article, this is from June 27,

00:00:26.600 | so quite recent for those who are watching on YouTube,

00:00:30.320 | youtube.com/CaliforniaReportMedia.

00:00:31.920 | You can see the article,

00:00:32.840 | those who are listening at home, I'll narrate it.

00:00:34.880 | The title of this article is

00:00:36.760 | "Twitter is the Go-To Social Media Site for US Journalists,

00:00:41.120 | "but Not for the Public."

00:00:44.560 | And if we look at it, it's based off of a survey.

00:00:48.380 | So a recent Pew Research Center survey

00:00:52.280 | of people from the news industry.

00:00:54.440 | So we have reporters, editors,

00:00:55.840 | and others working in the news industry.

00:00:57.960 | I wanna hone in on one particular chart,

00:01:01.620 | which you should be seeing, I'm gonna scroll this up now.

00:01:05.600 | There we go.

00:01:06.760 | So you should be seeing this chart

00:01:08.000 | if you're watching online.

00:01:10.020 | Basically, if you're listening, here's what it is.

00:01:12.160 | It's two bar graphs.

00:01:13.320 | On the left, it shows for each of these common

00:01:18.600 | social media style sites,

00:01:21.040 | what percentage of US journalists say they use that

00:01:25.920 | most or second most in their job.

00:01:28.040 | And then on the right, it is what percentage of US adults

00:01:31.240 | say they use that platform,

00:01:32.640 | particular platform regularly to get news.

00:01:34.840 | So we're comparing the platforms that journalists

00:01:38.200 | use regularly, when their top two sites

00:01:41.280 | they use in their job versus the websites

00:01:44.000 | that the average US adult uses to get news.

00:01:48.140 | That's the comparison being shown here.

00:01:49.620 | Left is journalist, right is adults.

00:01:52.600 | The big thing you'll notice,

00:01:54.680 | and this is from the headline,

00:01:55.800 | is that for the journalist, Twitter dominates.

00:02:00.000 | 69% of the journalists surveyed say Twitter

00:02:03.920 | is their top one or two platforms they use for their job.

00:02:08.920 | You look next to it, you look at US adults,

00:02:13.240 | and you see Twitter is 13%.

00:02:15.760 | 13% regularly use that to get news.

00:02:18.640 | So there is a major difference between the digital world

00:02:23.420 | in which journalists live versus the digital world

00:02:25.900 | in which most US adults live.

00:02:28.540 | Journalists are very Twitter focused.

00:02:31.280 | That is where they find news.

00:02:32.660 | That is where news is discussed.

00:02:34.820 | The average American adult is not.

00:02:36.760 | Now this matters for a couple of reasons.

00:02:40.060 | One, as we've covered numerous times on this show,

00:02:45.060 | there is a real effect, a real filter effect

00:02:47.640 | of what you see and how it is portrayed

00:02:49.940 | based on the particular platform you look at.

00:02:53.000 | So Twitter creates its own ecosystem

00:02:55.380 | of what's important and what's not important.

00:02:57.420 | How we should feel about this,

00:02:58.460 | how we shouldn't feel about this.

00:02:59.580 | And it's a very emotionally salient ecosystem.

00:03:02.820 | So it not only pushes things to the forefront

00:03:05.700 | as being important,

00:03:06.540 | but it does so with great emotional gusto.

00:03:10.180 | So if you're a journalist who lives in this world,

00:03:12.820 | you are being exposed to these huge,

00:03:16.420 | seemingly huge upswellings of emotion and commitment

00:03:19.780 | and engagement and activism,

00:03:21.660 | which may actually be largely artifice

00:03:24.100 | or at the very least, largely separate

00:03:26.440 | from what the population as a whole believes.

00:03:29.220 | This is why, as we covered in previous shows,

00:03:31.260 | we're beginning to see some of the major news companies

00:03:35.120 | pushing their staff away from Twitter

00:03:37.700 | because of this effect.

00:03:41.140 | New York Times being the most prominent example

00:03:43.380 | of them telling their reporters,

00:03:45.340 | please stop using Twitter.

00:03:46.900 | This is not helping the quality of our reporting.

00:03:51.380 | The other issue with Twitter,

00:03:53.720 | it's not captured directly,

00:03:54.880 | but it's implied by this graph,

00:03:56.260 | is that the reaction to what you do

00:04:00.060 | as an individual who posts on Twitter can be quite strong.

00:04:03.360 | We talked about this in a previous episode.

00:04:05.780 | Feedback is something we're wired to take seriously.

00:04:08.500 | So if you're a journalist who uses Twitter

00:04:10.780 | as your primary tool, like 69% of US journalists do,

00:04:14.700 | you're constantly working with this digital

00:04:17.820 | sword of Damocles hanging over your head.

00:04:20.540 | What if I say the wrong thing

00:04:22.500 | and really upset the crowd on Twitter?

00:04:25.980 | What if I miss out a particular caveat

00:04:28.740 | or don't mention this other factor that could be happening

00:04:31.380 | and I really get swarmed on by other people?

00:04:33.740 | This is anxiety producing.

00:04:35.220 | This is nerve wracking,

00:04:36.100 | and it really can push coverage in certain directions.

00:04:38.640 | Certain issues are never talked about

00:04:40.500 | or other issues are drowned

00:04:41.700 | in all sorts of defensive maneuvering.

00:04:43.940 | So there is all of these negative side effects,

00:04:45.660 | both what you see and how you worry about people seeing you

00:04:49.340 | if Twitter is the main thing you use.

00:04:51.000 | Most people don't use it.

00:04:52.580 | Journalists do, so it's an interesting separation.

00:04:54.780 | There is, however, something new I wanna remark about,

00:04:57.660 | new to this show, that I think is significant.

00:05:00.420 | And I don't quite understand this well,

00:05:01.920 | but I wanna put a preliminary stake in the ground here.

00:05:05.100 | Let's look at the right side of this chart.

00:05:07.260 | So the sites that US adults in general use to get news.

00:05:12.340 | Look at number two.

00:05:13.980 | YouTube.

00:05:14.860 | It's the second most used site by US adults to obtain news.

00:05:20.780 | So what's going on with that?

00:05:25.440 | Well, I think what this might be reflecting is generational.

00:05:31.120 | There is, I think, for the younger adult generations,

00:05:35.620 | what I guess you might call Gen Z

00:05:38.060 | and the younger millennials,

00:05:40.140 | a shift towards YouTube being a replacement

00:05:44.920 | for what my generation would have used cable for.

00:05:47.900 | That YouTube has become your source

00:05:53.300 | of television style entertainment.

00:05:57.300 | And so why are you getting a lot of news from YouTube?

00:05:58.940 | Because that's where I watch shows,

00:06:00.900 | putting quotation marks around them,

00:06:01.900 | 'cause they look very different than they did before.

00:06:03.300 | But if I want news, maybe I'm looking at breaking points

00:06:06.420 | or Kyle Kalinske, or if I'm on the other side

00:06:09.160 | of the political spectrum, Ben Shapiro or what have you.

00:06:13.020 | But this is actually where I think a whole generation

00:06:15.460 | is going for relatively reasonably produced video content.

00:06:20.460 | Now, I think this is really significant.

00:06:23.100 | I think it's really significant

00:06:24.140 | because it is a different game than is being played

00:06:26.860 | by the real flashy players

00:06:29.300 | in the online digital attention economy.

00:06:30.940 | We're looking now at the war between TikTok and Facebook,

00:06:33.780 | and there's Instagram and there's Twitter.

00:06:35.220 | And these are the platforms

00:06:36.380 | that are getting a lot of attention now.

00:06:37.900 | But they're playing a different game.

00:06:39.920 | Those platforms are playing what I think of

00:06:41.920 | as being the more short-term game

00:06:43.360 | of how do we get maximum engagement from people today?

00:06:47.200 | How do we get you to put your eyeballs

00:06:49.000 | on this app as long as possible?

00:06:50.680 | And so Facebook adds this feature

00:06:52.400 | and then TikTok tries something different

00:06:54.240 | and then Instagram tries to pivot

00:06:55.800 | and let's try to use reels here to be more TikTok like.

00:06:58.640 | And it's just fighting short-term

00:06:59.960 | to get people to glue their eyes to these screens.

00:07:02.560 | And they're using user generated content.

00:07:04.280 | Most of it's not super high quality, fine.

00:07:06.400 | YouTube, I think, is playing a longer game.

00:07:09.000 | It is looking at what happened when the web came along

00:07:11.580 | and it completely disrupted and democratized

00:07:14.360 | the production and publication of text.

00:07:17.460 | You used to have to be a newspaper or a magazine

00:07:19.920 | or a book publisher to have any sort

00:07:21.640 | of mass audience for text.

00:07:23.060 | The web said anyone could do this now.

00:07:25.140 | YouTube is doing this with video.

00:07:27.040 | And I think it's a really important shift.

00:07:29.240 | It's going to change long-term how we consume

00:07:34.500 | and produce video content away from the TV

00:07:39.500 | and towards these new sort of mediums

00:07:41.700 | that YouTube is experimenting with.

00:07:43.900 | And I don't think the game is,

00:07:45.580 | how do I do this addictive TikTok style experience

00:07:48.060 | that's going to get you glued to this as much as possible?

00:07:50.980 | I mean, maybe they care about that in the short term,

00:07:52.580 | but the long-term impact, I think,

00:07:54.000 | of democratizing video is going to be

00:07:56.440 | a complete change of that landscape.

00:07:58.260 | So we see hints of that in 22% of US adults

00:08:02.500 | getting their news from YouTube.

00:08:04.180 | That's because YouTube is their TV.

00:08:06.300 | That is their cable TV.

00:08:07.520 | They don't go to CNN.

00:08:08.860 | They go to a YouTube channel of someone they trust.

00:08:11.800 | They want to know about, let's say, the latest COVID news.

00:08:14.900 | Instead of going to Fox News or MSNBC,

00:08:17.980 | they will switch to something like

00:08:20.700 | John Campbell's YouTube page.

00:08:23.220 | A former nurse, an instructor of nurse

00:08:25.900 | who has a YouTube page where every other day,

00:08:27.860 | or maybe even every day, he literally just takes

00:08:30.040 | the statistics of what's going on in UK in particular

00:08:32.740 | with COVID numbers, and he goes through them,

00:08:34.220 | and the camera shows him the paper,

00:08:36.780 | and he just ticks things off with his pen,

00:08:38.380 | and just let's go through the numbers

00:08:39.560 | and see what's happening, 2.5 million subscribers.

00:08:42.540 | You get more people watching those videos

00:08:45.380 | than are watching the morning show on CNN.

00:08:48.300 | So this, I think, is interesting.

00:08:50.280 | And where is this all going to lead?

00:08:52.500 | Well, I honestly think the red herring in this conversation,

00:08:55.660 | the red herring is the highly engaging,

00:08:59.060 | addictive TikTok style, user-generated,

00:09:01.980 | go straight into my brainstem type,

00:09:04.260 | quick, quick, 15-second content.

00:09:05.980 | What I think is going to emerge from the YouTube world

00:09:08.980 | is this medium-level production value.

00:09:12.500 | Like, I think this is what's gonna be important.

00:09:14.420 | This is what is gonna disrupt the television,

00:09:16.980 | in particular, the cable television landscape,

00:09:20.540 | which is hundreds of billions of dollars of economy.

00:09:22.820 | What's gonna disrupt this is people creating videos,

00:09:25.960 | but not creating videos quickly with their phone

00:09:28.240 | to go to TikTok, but people who have some production value.

00:09:31.940 | That they have a set, they have some good lights,

00:09:34.500 | they have some people working on it.

00:09:35.340 | It's still a fraction of the cost

00:09:37.060 | of producing a half hour

00:09:38.260 | of standard terrestrial linear cable programming,

00:09:41.580 | but it's good enough production values.

00:09:44.700 | We saw that happen in the blogging revolution.

00:09:47.220 | It was individual bloggers that gave way

00:09:49.740 | towards content sites.

00:09:52.900 | You get the, like, BuzzFeeds and the Slates and the Vox

00:09:56.560 | that actually were replicating newspaper magazine quality,

00:10:00.220 | but at a fraction of the production cost.

00:10:01.620 | We're seeing that in audio.

00:10:02.620 | What's happening in podcast?

00:10:04.780 | We're seeing this large industry eating into

00:10:08.340 | and about the Conquer radio,

00:10:11.220 | but what are the shows that are doing this?

00:10:12.580 | Well, they have radio-style production values.

00:10:14.740 | I mean, there's a reason why we're in this studio,

00:10:16.780 | why we have all this equipment over here.

00:10:19.540 | It's a lot cheaper than running an NPR affiliate,

00:10:22.100 | but it's when you cross that uncanny valley

00:10:25.220 | into production values

00:10:26.320 | that are close enough to professional.

00:10:28.060 | That's when these democratized channels

00:10:31.180 | for media production become important,

00:10:32.660 | and that, I think, is the important thing

00:10:34.460 | happening in YouTube.

00:10:35.780 | It's not my picture I took with my smartphone,

00:10:39.820 | but the breaking point set

00:10:42.180 | where they have a pretty good lighting grid,

00:10:44.180 | and they're using a $60,000 4K camera,

00:10:47.180 | three-camera system with a TriCaster

00:10:49.020 | so that you can actually display their show

00:10:51.260 | on a 4K large-screen television,

00:10:53.860 | and it looks the same resolution style

00:10:56.440 | as what's coming out of the TV studios.

00:10:58.620 | $60,000 is a lot,

00:11:00.300 | but it's a fraction of what it pays to do,

00:11:02.100 | costs to do a traditional cable show.

00:11:03.700 | So anyways, there's this underlying trend

00:11:05.780 | I think is important.

00:11:07.300 | YouTube is becoming the new TV for a bigger generation.

00:11:10.420 | This is driving a crossing of the uncanny valley.

00:11:14.260 | More and more democratically distributedly produced

00:11:17.660 | video content is beginning to approximate

00:11:19.900 | the production values of low-end television.

00:11:22.020 | That, I think, those are the moves I think

00:11:23.760 | that really disrupt the media landscape.

00:11:25.300 | So there's the whole engagement war

00:11:27.340 | happening with social media platforms.

00:11:28.740 | Let's put that aside for now.

00:11:30.100 | This, I think, is a trend that is also,

00:11:32.580 | it's also worth keeping an eye on.

00:11:34.920 | I mean, Jesse, that's why we're doing video.

00:11:38.500 | I don't really know, we don't really know

00:11:41.060 | what exactly we're trying to accomplish

00:11:43.860 | by having the reasonably lit studio,

00:11:46.100 | a pretty good camera system, you know, some good audio.

00:11:49.300 | But as you heard me say all along,

00:11:51.220 | is I just had this instinct, I think we should be there.

00:11:54.180 | I think things are happening.

00:11:55.540 | I can't tell you, I can't point to,

00:11:57.940 | oh, we're trying to do X, what this person's doing,

00:11:59.900 | and we can be there in six months.

00:12:01.160 | But I think a couple years from now,

00:12:02.960 | there's some importance to being early on this.

00:12:05.860 | - It's the same deal that you talked about originally

00:12:08.000 | when you provided the justification for the YouTube channel

00:12:11.300 | and having your core ideas, those types of,

00:12:16.300 | like your reading lists, like you can get specific content

00:12:19.100 | where you went to the podcast and go to minute 32,

00:12:23.740 | whatever, to see Cal talk about books,

00:12:26.700 | whereas now you can just send him the video.

00:12:28.000 | It's like easy, they can watch it on their phone.

00:12:29.140 | - You can share, yeah, and there's something about visual.

00:12:32.180 | Like why do people watch video of podcasts?

00:12:34.660 | I had this conversation with a friend of mine,

00:12:36.220 | we went out to lunch, and he's my age.

00:12:38.220 | So he's like, I don't understand

00:12:40.460 | why anyone would have a video of a podcast.

00:12:43.860 | He's like, when are people, when are they listening to it?

00:12:46.500 | And I was like, no, people like to watch it.

00:12:48.180 | - It's funny, I actually figured out when they do,

00:12:50.740 | one of my buddies, Eitan, who I hadn't seen in a while,

00:12:54.140 | he watches it in the gym.

00:12:55.740 | So he has it on the gym and then he, like on a big TV,

00:12:58.820 | and then, 'cause he sent me a picture,

00:13:00.380 | he's like, is that you?

00:13:01.220 | And I was like, it is me.

00:13:03.140 | So then he watches it when he works out.

00:13:04.740 | I think a lot of people do that.

00:13:05.580 | - Which is like people used to put TV on, so why not?

00:13:07.940 | I think the sports radio people figured that out, right?

00:13:11.180 | Especially like the early, like Dan Patrick, Colin Coward,

00:13:15.740 | like they figured out people like to see you,

00:13:20.420 | even if it's just they're in their studio

00:13:21.980 | with their fancy mic and they're just sitting there talking,

00:13:23.820 | something about it is just, that was really compelling.

00:13:26.660 | There's the, you know, the sports junkies

00:13:28.460 | is a morning sports show here in DC.

00:13:32.260 | They have, they're now televised

00:13:35.220 | on the NBC sports network, right?

00:13:38.100 | It's just four guys around the table talking,

00:13:41.300 | but that is like compelling television.

00:13:43.180 | There's something, don't underestimate, you know,

00:13:45.260 | our attraction to the visual.

00:13:47.700 | So I don't think the model's there yet.

00:13:49.860 | Like the, obviously the monetization model

00:13:51.740 | is coming there for podcasts.

00:13:53.100 | I mean, the ad rates are good.

00:13:56.340 | Really good shows are getting bought up

00:13:58.300 | in the networks for real money.

00:14:00.220 | You know, people are making more on podcasts

00:14:02.820 | than they would have made in low end TV.

00:14:04.300 | So like the model is there for podcasting.

00:14:06.420 | YouTube, not really.

00:14:07.540 | I mean, there's like the super like professional YouTubers

00:14:10.860 | trying to do the Mr. B style.

00:14:12.900 | I have millions and millions of viewers

00:14:14.420 | and trying to, that game.

00:14:16.180 | But I think there's another video game

00:14:17.900 | that hasn't emerged yet.

00:14:19.300 | Where like high quality video, approximating cable,

00:14:22.420 | where the revenue is not from some incredibly low CPM

00:14:25.580 | automated YouTube ad, but from something else.

00:14:27.980 | And maybe that's nothing to do with YouTube.

00:14:29.260 | It's on private apps or networks.

00:14:31.900 | I don't know, but I mean, I think there's something.

00:14:34.740 | - Well, even on Tyler Cohen's podcast recently,

00:14:39.380 | he was talking to Horowitz and what's the partner's name?

00:14:43.980 | He was talking to the partner

00:14:44.860 | and they were talking about how-

00:14:45.980 | - Andreessen.

00:14:46.820 | - Yeah, Andreessen.

00:14:47.660 | - Mark Andreessen.

00:14:48.500 | - And he was talking about how the economic model

00:14:51.300 | for podcasts actually isn't there yet.

00:14:53.020 | - Oh, interesting.

00:14:53.860 | - He's like, it's starting to get there, but it's still,

00:14:56.700 | he was explaining, he does a much better job

00:14:58.220 | of explaining it than I did,

00:14:59.060 | but it was pretty cool to listen to.

00:15:00.380 | - Yeah, 'cause I know two people, not well,

00:15:01.940 | but just like I've crossed paths with them

00:15:03.540 | or talked with them who in the last year or two

00:15:06.420 | have done seven figure deals for podcasting.

00:15:12.860 | I mean, the interesting thing about that is,

00:15:16.740 | like in writing, for example,

00:15:18.060 | which has been around forever,

00:15:20.500 | seven figure deals are very, very hard

00:15:23.060 | and they're very, very rare, right?

00:15:24.700 | I mean, the level of success you have to have

00:15:28.860 | in the world of writing in terms of where you rank

00:15:33.020 | among other writers to do seven figure deals

00:15:35.180 | is like really at the tippy top.

00:15:37.820 | These guys doing seven figure deals for podcast

00:15:40.820 | are not at that super elite level.

00:15:43.700 | It's not like, okay, these are the names.

00:15:45.580 | I mean, if you're doing a seven figure deal for a book,

00:15:47.980 | people know who you are.

00:15:49.300 | These are not podcasters who people are like,

00:15:52.700 | oh yeah, I know that show, right?

00:15:54.380 | So there's something interesting going on.

00:15:55.740 | I think it's a highly monetizable world.

00:15:58.100 | It's the, I don't know, Jordan Harbinger and I

00:16:00.860 | talked about this when we did, I guess last summer,

00:16:03.860 | I don't know, I had him on the show a while ago

00:16:06.180 | and we got deep into the economics of podcasting

00:16:09.020 | and we tried to get into this

00:16:11.460 | and I was kind of arguing that the peak of,

00:16:14.700 | you know, you can make a good living

00:16:15.860 | is actually way broader on that than in other things.

00:16:18.180 | He kind of disagreed,

00:16:19.340 | but it was like something's interesting going on.

00:16:20.660 | When I know two people who's like,

00:16:23.940 | if I grab someone on the street and said their name,

00:16:26.980 | they don't know who they are,

00:16:28.100 | but are doing these seven figure deals,

00:16:30.220 | something's interesting going on

00:16:31.380 | because in almost every other media,

00:16:32.860 | if you're doing seven figure deals,

00:16:34.780 | at the very least you're a popular host of a radio show.

00:16:38.500 | You're like, you have a pretty good prime time,

00:16:41.260 | maybe early prime time cable news show.

00:16:44.380 | Your book is at the front of the bookstore at the airport

00:16:49.380 | and podcasting is bringing people to that level.

00:16:54.180 | - It's similar to like internet marketing,

00:16:55.900 | how people kill it on the internet, you know?

00:16:57.980 | And like you can compare that

00:16:59.140 | to like a brick and mortar business

00:17:00.500 | and some of these internet marketers

00:17:03.100 | or you would see this simple website

00:17:04.980 | and it generates millions and millions of dollars a month.

00:17:07.260 | It's kind of similar.

00:17:08.100 | - Yeah, you've told me about some of that world.

00:17:09.620 | Like the numbers are crazy.

00:17:10.660 | - Yeah, they're insane.

00:17:11.740 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:17:13.260 | - Forget seven, talk eight figures or more, right?

00:17:16.180 | - Some of them, I mean, it's really hard to figure out,

00:17:18.620 | but if you figure it out, I mean,

00:17:20.180 | but even like the seven figure ones or whatever,

00:17:22.260 | I mean, that's doable, you know?

00:17:24.540 | - Yeah, so it's interesting.

00:17:25.460 | I love those trends.

00:17:26.780 | So I think video, like, so audio is getting there.

00:17:29.940 | Text never got there.

00:17:31.640 | It was very, the upper limit

00:17:34.220 | for monetizing democratized text

00:17:36.620 | after the World Wide Web came along,

00:17:38.380 | the upper limit there was the ceiling

00:17:41.540 | was relatively low.

00:17:43.780 | Like Andrew Sullivan could get high six figures

00:17:48.220 | for the Daily Dish, but it was a huge pain.

00:17:51.740 | You know, it was a huge pain technically.

00:17:54.340 | You know, I think some people now with Substack

00:17:56.540 | can do like high six figures,

00:17:58.740 | but it's like, that's a ceiling for people

00:18:00.740 | who are at the very top of the game,

00:18:02.140 | the very top of their pyramid.

00:18:03.700 | Audio seems to be, you know, better.

00:18:08.540 | Like I could replace my Georgetown salary

00:18:11.820 | with what we're doing right now,

00:18:15.420 | which is a half day a week.

00:18:16.460 | So that's like, something's happening there.

00:18:18.380 | And we see these people doing seven figure stuff

00:18:21.020 | and video I think is gonna maybe have an even bigger ceiling.

00:18:25.380 | I just don't think it's figured it out yet.

00:18:26.380 | Obviously YouTube ads is not what is going

00:18:29.900 | to monetize video in a meaningful way.

00:18:32.380 | It's just the numbers aren't there.

00:18:33.660 | It only rewards virality and certain types of like content

00:18:38.660 | that serves to the algorithm.

00:18:41.460 | But I think there's gonna be monetization

00:18:43.460 | that gets free from the algorithm.

00:18:44.820 | - So we'll see.

00:18:45.820 | - That's kind of what Mark was talking about.

00:18:48.060 | - Right, so that's what he was.

00:18:49.500 | - I can't really explain it well,

00:18:51.340 | but I'd have to listen to it again.

00:18:52.420 | But he was talking about some stuff.

00:18:53.660 | - This was, so this was on Tyler Cowen's podcast

00:18:56.220 | kind of recently.

00:18:57.060 | - Yeah, I just listened to it last week.

00:18:58.860 | - Andreessen and Horowitz were both.

00:19:00.860 | - It was just Mark.

00:19:01.700 | - Just Mark Andreessen, yeah.

00:19:03.100 | - On the show, interesting.

00:19:04.060 | - He reads a lot too.

00:19:05.020 | You probably get along with him.

00:19:06.540 | - Never met him.

00:19:07.700 | - You guys, I could tell you guys would be able

00:19:09.540 | to talk about a lot of stuff.

00:19:10.540 | - Yeah.

00:19:11.380 | (upbeat music)

00:19:13.960 | (upbeat music)

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