Ep. 215: Interview With Ryan Holiday

00:00:00.000 | I think this goes to the question that you talk about in your books, which is like, I

00:00:04.320 | want to do something great, but I don't know what that is.

00:00:07.160 | And you just said you have a number of vague sort of passions or interests.

00:00:11.640 | Well, I think I think what I would do in that position is sort of first off, where do I

00:00:18.440 | have time that I'm wasting?

00:00:26.680 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, episode 215.

00:00:33.040 | I'm here in my Deep Work HQ, joined by my producer, Jesse.

00:00:40.840 | Jesse, one of the things I'm excited about today is we have a guest.

00:00:45.280 | Which has been a little while, but it's definitely been one of our ambitions to have

00:00:50.760 | more interviews on the show, so to help kick off a season in which we may have more of

00:00:57.680 | those coming, I sat down with our friend of the show, good friend of the show, Ryan

00:01:03.640 | Holliday.

00:01:04.240 | Exciting stuff.

00:01:05.920 | Yeah, he has a new book coming out.

00:01:07.320 | Discipline is Destiny.

00:01:09.160 | It comes out this week, the week that this podcast comes out.

00:01:12.960 | He is on track to sell, and this is the official number I just got from Bookscan, all

00:01:18.640 | the copies, what that says there.

00:01:21.120 | He has quite the following, so I think this book's going to do quite well, but it was a

00:01:25.400 | good, good chance to good chance to catch up.

00:01:27.960 | I'll say the long-term plan for guests, in case you're wondering, is in the future, what

00:01:33.600 | we would like, it might take us again a couple of months till we're really there, two

00:01:37.960 | episodes a week.

00:01:38.880 | Always the standard Q&A episode, like you know and love Deep Questions.

00:01:43.880 | It's us answering questions from you, taking calls from you.

00:01:47.480 | Other episode each week, doing a deep dive with a guest on a particular type of topic that we

00:01:52.560 | would cover normally on the show.

00:01:53.960 | So guest, Q&A, guest, Q&A.

00:01:56.280 | That's ultimately where we want to end up.

00:01:57.920 | The other exciting thing about today's guest episode is the first time in the history of

00:02:03.520 | the show that we have, knock on wood, video of guests.

00:02:08.200 | So that should be nice.

00:02:09.280 | I'm excited about that format.

00:02:11.640 | I can't wait to hear you talk to other people.

00:02:13.280 | Yeah.

00:02:14.040 | It's going to be great.

00:02:14.560 | Well, and I love the, you know, I love video.

00:02:16.360 | And so I like that we can also watch it.

00:02:18.280 | So at the youtube.com/countyreportmedia, we'll be able to release the video of Ryan and I

00:02:22.600 | talking as well as clips from our interview.

00:02:24.800 | And there's a lot of cool people I want to talk to.

00:02:26.720 | For me, my goal here is not so much of, I just want to have a bunch of famous people on.

00:02:32.200 | I'm happy having people return again and again.

00:02:35.840 | What I want to do is bring in other interesting thinkers that tackle the type of issues that we

00:02:40.240 | do on the show, that we tackle on the show.

00:02:41.920 | I want to bring in the most interesting brains, the people with the biggest experiences, the

00:02:45.360 | people who come at things from completely different angles.

00:02:47.600 | We could have certainly repeat guests.

00:02:50.440 | We tackle different topics each time they're here.

00:02:52.640 | We can have guests that are just here one time.

00:02:54.480 | I think there's a whole universe of interesting conversations to add into the mix.

00:02:57.560 | So the Q and A is not going anywhere.

00:02:59.080 | And it might just be Q and A for a little while, more or less, but we're going to be

00:03:02.920 | adding more, more guests in the not too distant future.

00:03:06.040 | So, I mean, this conversation we had today was a great one.

00:03:08.600 | We start by talking about, you'll hear the book, Discipline is Destiny.

00:03:14.440 | So we talk about discipline and why Ryan is writing about that, his main ideas.

00:03:20.040 | We do a little bit of advice by proxy.

00:03:22.840 | I say, OK, assume I'm a reader and this is my issue and I need more discipline.

00:03:26.560 | I'm in this circumstance. What would you do?

00:03:28.080 | OK, assume I'm in this circumstance.

00:03:29.480 | How should I think about this?

00:03:30.440 | And then as often happens when I get together with Ryan, we end up veering off to get in

00:03:37.160 | the weeds and play a little insider baseball on the publishing industry.

00:03:41.000 | His and I similar rise through becoming writers and having media companies and how to

00:03:47.280 | balance that all. So we we end up covering, I think, a fair amount of topics.

00:03:51.320 | We kept it tight, right, Jesse, because he had a hard out.

00:03:53.280 | Yeah, we got a good, I think, one hour.

00:03:55.520 | Get in, get out, keep it tight.

00:03:58.200 | Yeah, it was a good conversation.

00:03:59.760 | No Joe Rogan style three hours here, but I think it's fine.

00:04:03.200 | I think it's good. So that's the plan.

00:04:06.080 | So what we're going to do is we'll cut to the interview and then after the interview,

00:04:10.240 | Jesse will join me again and we'll do a little bit of a post game analysis before we get

00:04:16.440 | the Ryan, though. Let me just mention one of the sponsors that makes this show possible.

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00:10:02.040 | So enough sponsors.

00:10:02.920 | It is time now to get to my conversation with author extraordinaire Ryan Holiday.

00:10:11.240 | works yes it's just I'm bored so the new book discipline is destiny it's coming

00:10:18.360 | out the same week that this podcast releases so if you're hearing this it's

00:10:22.620 | out or about to come out let's start there I want to get into the book so

00:10:26.920 | this is one of four books based around the four Stoic virtues it's the second

00:10:32.960 | one you had the first book was courage is calling so the stoic virtue it's it's

00:10:37.460 | often translated the relevant virtue is temperance yeah what's going on here

00:10:42.360 | what's the thinking behind discipline is the term you used for the title well the

00:10:46.340 | problem is in America because of the temperance movement around the turn of

00:10:52.480 | the 20th century which sought to forbid the sale and consumption of alcohol

00:10:58.520 | people think that temperance means not having any of something right temperance

00:11:05.400 | is is really rooted in the idea of balance or moderation like finding the

00:11:10.520 | right amount a better word for this a Greek word is soft for Sinai which means

00:11:16.440 | or self self mastery so when you see the Stoics talk about this one of the four

00:11:22.560 | virtues courage temperance justice wisdom you often see it rendered as

00:11:28.040 | self-discipline which I think is a much more accessible and practical and and I

00:11:35.600 | would say urgent of the topics and so I decided not to spend a whole book

00:11:40.960 | talking about you know how do you find the right amount of something and

00:11:45.600 | instead talk about what you do once you know the right amount of something which

00:11:50.280 | is be disciplined about it so the book pivoted around that which I tend to find

00:11:55.720 | is the critical question on all all book projects which is you have this general

00:12:01.360 | vague idea of something you want to write about but what is the handle that

00:12:06.600 | the book is built around or what's the shelf that it's on like when you wanted

00:12:10.040 | to talk about sort of devices and our relationship with screens etc I've got

00:12:15.160 | to imagine it wasn't till you sort of come up with the idea it's like this is

00:12:17.720 | about minimalism applied to technology that you sort of figure out what it is

00:12:22.820 | you're going to say and how you're gonna say it I mean that is interesting that

00:12:26.960 | that's a shift if it with this specific topic and you talk about it in the book

00:12:32.080 | and in you know various interviews you've done when you go back to let's

00:12:35.840 | say Aristotle yeah right we get a lot of the the mean that we go to the

00:12:40.840 | Nicomachean ethics it's all about trying to find the what you should be pursuing

00:12:44.960 | that middle ground between excess and and and paucity and there was a lot of

00:12:49.000 | focus on that and you're right that seems less relevant to people today it's

00:12:53.080 | not the I know this is what the amount of exercise I should do this is where I

00:12:58.600 | should be with drinking this is the actual self mastery so where the Stoics

00:13:02.280 | because I don't know him as well as you obviously so where the Stoics locked

00:13:05.920 | into that self-control self-discipline piece of this more than you would see in

00:13:10.360 | let's say the non-stoic ancient Greeks like you would see an Aristotle for

00:13:13.960 | example I think so yeah it's a good question I mean and for me what's

00:13:18.100 | interesting is so much of like the knowing what the right amount of

00:13:21.440 | something also to me that fits pretty neatly under the under the the

00:13:28.880 | discipline or the virtue of wisdom or prudence right and so I I have taken

00:13:36.480 | some liberties in moving separate I'll give you another example so the Stoics

00:13:40.240 | typically rendered endurance as one of the elements of courage right so like

00:13:48.160 | that when they were talking about all the the sub virtues of courage they

00:13:51.520 | would talk about endurance but to me endurance quite clearly falls under the

00:13:57.160 | virtue of self-control or self-discipline right it's it's how do

00:14:00.720 | you hang on how do you how do you last through something how do you push

00:14:04.520 | through something so I I haven't really felt any compunction about moving stuff

00:14:09.040 | around I feel more than entitled to do that especially when you're thinking

00:14:14.120 | about temperance as a topic that probably isn't on its own big enough or

00:14:21.880 | interesting enough to go the distance for someone for a perspective reader so

00:14:29.200 | I really wanted to talk about self-discipline which I think most

00:14:32.200 | people believe they don't have enough of do you differentiate between the

00:14:38.360 | different flavors of this because people and I think discipline there's these

00:14:42.320 | broad categories that come up there's physical obviously yeah there's

00:14:45.960 | self-control in terms of addictions and consumptions there's self-control in

00:14:50.040 | terms of productive focused application to effort what's the ontology that you

00:14:55.240 | find useful with this idea so I ended up splitting the book in three parts that's

00:14:59.600 | how I'm kind of doing each structure I'm kind of thinking in it even in the terms

00:15:02.760 | of like beginning intermediate advanced but the way I did it here was the first

00:15:07.720 | is sort of physical discipline so that's like what you eat that's what you do

00:15:12.320 | that's what your environment looks like then it then it goes into sort of

00:15:16.680 | temperament or the sort of emotional mental discipline so focus you know

00:15:24.320 | controlling your temper you know push it pushing oneself and then the third part

00:15:31.960 | is kind of a fusing of those together where sort of in the real world someone

00:15:37.320 | is has that sort of almost monk like or or transcendent level of self-discipline

00:15:44.280 | like kind of under fire so that's that's kind of the the structure I was thinking

00:15:49.160 | about and and you're right it's self-discipline isn't just not doing

00:15:54.680 | things it's also doing something so the epigraph of the book I have a quote from

00:15:59.840 | Epictetus and he basically is trying to sum up like two words that function as

00:16:06.560 | your advice for life these are two words that you should always follow and

00:16:13.560 | observe and he says it's persist and resist and so some things you're

00:16:18.360 | resisting and then some things you're pushing through and doing and I like

00:16:22.480 | that sort of tension and to me it actually kind of does go back to the

00:16:28.280 | the origins of the idea of of temperance or self-discipline there's kind of a

00:16:33.520 | contradiction there it's this sort of paradox of like do some things don't do

00:16:38.160 | some things and you've got to know what which is what and when right and so do

00:16:45.080 | you think is the reason why you started with physical for approaching that

00:16:50.400 | whatever that that tension that dichotomy is physical the right entry

00:16:53.960 | way I mean because it's it's so clear you know yeah I'm exercising I'm

00:16:58.880 | whatever I whatever it is it's clear and so that is that meant to be

00:17:02.480 | foundational is that where people should start I think so I mean unless you're

00:17:07.040 | asking me a sort of an editorial question which it's too late for me to

00:17:10.480 | change if I should have moved that the part two of the book to part one which I

00:17:15.040 | certainly thought about but no I do like I start so I start with the physical and

00:17:22.080 | then I start with like just what time do you wake up in the morning or the idea

00:17:26.520 | of like starting the day sort of intentionally and deliberately I make a

00:17:31.040 | case for waking up early but I do think you want to start with with something

00:17:36.040 | very simple very straightforward something very clear you know if I say

00:17:41.680 | like master your emotions well what does that actually look like and what does

00:17:45.400 | that mean that's a vaguer that's a vaguer command then like wake up early

00:17:51.800 | go to sleep you know try to get eight hours of sleep every night or you know

00:17:56.120 | don't eat fatty foods or exercise regularly right like I wanted to talk

00:18:01.320 | about something very concrete very clear very tangible not just because I think

00:18:05.920 | it's simple but I also think momentum or sorry I think discipline is it's a

00:18:11.040 | muscle so the more disciplined you are able to be in I don't even want to call

00:18:16.320 | them trivial but in the these sort of straightforward parts of your life I do

00:18:20.360 | think it is transferable or the muscle once built allows you to be more

00:18:27.120 | disciplined in other facets of your life right I was thinking about this because

00:18:32.880 | we did a question on the show I'm only two weeks ago where someone was asking

00:18:38.480 | about being more disciplined and of course the short answer was get Ryan's

00:18:42.000 | book but it wasn't out yet so the longer answer was I ended up stumbling on this

00:18:48.800 | construction that that discipline is not it's not an adjective it's more an

00:18:54.200 | identity so instead of saying I'm going to I need to go apply discipline to this

00:18:59.160 | thing I'm doing it's an identity you build as I'm a disciplined person

00:19:02.600 | disciplined people are then able to actually go forward and do other things

00:19:06.160 | with discipline and if that is true then the obvious the physical the clear is

00:19:12.000 | probably a really good way into into identity building and the reason why I

00:19:15.520 | was thinking about this I want to get your take on this is there seems to be

00:19:18.960 | in the last let's say five years a pretty powerful online community I guess

00:19:25.480 | we could call it built around discipline and I'm talking about Cam Haines whose

00:19:31.440 | book I just read or David Goggins or rich role you know it's really how rich

00:19:36.280 | role got started before before he shifted more guru etc these type of

00:19:41.120 | characters who who demonstrate extreme physical typically that's right

00:19:46.880 | discipline and it's very popular is very popular and so what's going on is it

00:19:50.480 | what's this tapping into why is this so popular well I let's say a monk is

00:19:55.800 | equally impressive in terms of their dis let's let's say to be a monk you know

00:20:02.040 | you take your vow of poverty you detach from society where your robes you shave

00:20:06.960 | your head etc you meditate multiple hours a day let's let's let's stipulate

00:20:11.400 | an environment in which that demands as much discipline as running an ultra

00:20:16.800 | marathon perhaps more well one is much more cinematic than the other right one

00:20:22.880 | is much more followable than the other so I do think that's why you see sort of

00:20:28.120 | the feats of strength or the the sort of physical fitness influencers the sort of

00:20:34.760 | discipline manifesting itself whether it's hunting or running or lifting

00:20:39.400 | weights or what time you wake up this is easier to track and watch so I think

00:20:43.600 | there's some just sort of filter bias there but I do think it goes back to the

00:20:50.000 | idea that it is a transferable skill and you you want to build you want to build

00:20:55.200 | it up and and you know this is why the Stokes would talk about taking cold

00:20:59.720 | baths or you know wearing coarse clothing they were trying to build up a

00:21:04.280 | kind of a toughness right Seneca Seneca talks about treating the body

00:21:09.160 | rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind right like if you're the

00:21:13.440 | kind of person that can say when your body is tired and you're in the middle

00:21:18.000 | of a run and your body saying you should stop doing this it is hard and you have

00:21:23.440 | the ability to override that I think that is a skill that then when your

00:21:27.920 | phone says hey you should pick me up and tune out the world for the next 45

00:21:33.280 | minutes ideally you have cultivated again the ability to be like no I decide

00:21:39.400 | what I'm gonna do not the impulse not the urge etc and to go to go to your

00:21:45.880 | point about discipline being an identity I think it's an identity but I would also

00:21:49.200 | argue that it is a habit and this goes back to Aristotle he says like if you

00:21:53.400 | want to be a jet if you want the virtue of say generosity he says you get that

00:21:58.600 | by being generous right this isn't like a state that you arrive at it is a thing

00:22:03.880 | that you do and so again if you want to be more disciplined it starts by being

00:22:10.600 | disciplined and insisting on discipline and making discipline a habit so you

00:22:16.400 | know what are you gonna quit what are you gonna push yourself to do persist

00:22:19.600 | and resist this is how one develops the identity of discipline I don't think

00:22:25.440 | it's something you assert just like call calling yourself a writer is not as

00:22:32.680 | important as regularly writing we've already talked about that before yes

00:22:41.240 | yeah yeah I have the pen I mean I think that all makes sense right like it's

00:22:46.680 | it's tractable to get 10% more disciplined than you were before for

00:22:51.120 | example as a tractable goal so if you start by being as disciplined as you can

00:22:55.240 | you can then be six months later 20% more disciplined than six months later

00:23:01.240 | 20% more disciplined than that I mean you that's tractable increasing by a

00:23:05.240 | modest amount whereas jumping from you know I'm out of shape I'm on my phone

00:23:09.320 | all the time I'm gonna be elk hunting you know marathon elk hunting or

00:23:14.320 | whatever for six days next week it's not gonna happen which it by the way I think

00:23:19.000 | this is I don't know what your take is on this but you know I know various

00:23:23.280 | people who have been involved in we could think of as like manhood or

00:23:27.200 | manliness style online communities where yeah they're into it was you know was

00:23:33.360 | weightlifting I think after Rogan's influence definitely into bow hunting

00:23:37.240 | like everyone's bow yeah right so they're working out their bow hunting

00:23:40.040 | and I think it's easy for people around here like suburban DC to kind of roll

00:23:45.280 | their eyes and like oh come on what is this what do you think you are caveman

00:23:49.000 | yeah something like this but what I'm observing and what I hear from the

00:23:53.040 | people who run these communities is yeah you get in the door hunting because you

00:23:57.680 | saw cam Haines do it on like the Rogan podcast and lifting out because Jaco

00:24:02.040 | yes does it but what you then get six months down the line is also now they're

00:24:07.120 | drinking less also now they're showing up more for their kids also now they're

00:24:10.000 | you know a better father is like this the the pornography is gone it was this

00:24:13.160 | this entryway it's like entry entry drug to to greater discipline you got to

00:24:18.600 | start somewhere and as you say it's cinematic I can have a drone shot of me

00:24:21.840 | trail run well you know what's funny about it too is like there is a certain

00:24:25.760 | amount of fattishness to it it's like you can as you just said you can trace

00:24:29.360 | it like exactly to what influencer popularized what activity but it's not

00:24:34.880 | like they're it's some fad that came out of nowhere like they invented it's not

00:24:41.160 | like pickleball which wasn't a game you know even just a few years ago right

00:24:46.240 | like it is these are timeless activities you could say they're timeless

00:24:51.560 | disciplines right like bow hunting it taps into something immensely primal

00:24:57.040 | about the human experience hunting being outdoors you know sort of getting the

00:25:02.160 | endorphins from exerting oneself like the Brazilian Brazilian jiu-jitsu which

00:25:08.360 | a lot of people do these are these are traits activities that would not only

00:25:14.240 | have not been unfamiliar but were in fact practiced by Marcus Aurelius and

00:25:19.520 | Epictetus and Seneca and like they talk about these things not in the

00:25:23.560 | metaphorical sense but in the real sense when Marcus really says you know you

00:25:29.200 | know you should face life like a like a wrestler dug in for sudden attacks like

00:25:35.280 | he's saying that as a person who trains in the discipline of wrestling and had

00:25:40.320 | his whole life so I I think there is something you know when you look at our

00:25:44.520 | very modern sheltered sort of unchallenging lives there's something

00:25:50.640 | refreshing and invigorating about these activities like I just again kind of a

00:25:57.760 | fad I just got like a cold plunge at my house and you know there's there's some

00:26:03.080 | part of me that feels a little ridiculous because it's like everyone's

00:26:05.600 | doing it and who actually knows what the health benefits are like they're there I

00:26:09.520 | think they're there but they're not like I would I would not be shocked to find

00:26:14.440 | they were overstated but like in a world where you have hot water on demand at

00:26:20.560 | all times a certain softness comes from that and the ability to do uncomfortable

00:26:27.480 | challenging things on purpose and subject yourself to it it toughens you

00:26:33.640 | up and then when you know the hot water isn't there because you're staying in a

00:26:38.320 | hostel in Europe while you're traveling or something you you have a layer of

00:26:43.880 | resiliency or discipline there that a person who gets everything they want all

00:26:48.520 | the time doesn't have right I mean this is what I always used to think about my

00:26:54.000 | parents like my dad for example way less affected by hardship than I think we

00:27:00.080 | were I would be at my current age like oh you got to wake up early to pick

00:27:04.080 | someone up at the airport at 5 a.m. or this is inconvenience like whatever like

00:27:07.400 | just do the thing you need to do and and my long theory had always been well he

00:27:10.760 | had the you know right after college Vietnam was going on and yeah the leave

00:27:15.560 | college and be in Louisiana at an army base you know sleeping on tarps and

00:27:20.320 | crawling through the through the jungle and when that type of stuff happens later

00:27:25.480 | in life you say whatever I'll wake up at 4 to pick you up like being tired for a

00:27:31.080 | day is not though it's not the worst thing so let me put on a put on the

00:27:35.360 | lens of I'm one of my listeners they write about this fun a lot to me what

00:27:38.300 | we'll try to extract some they write me about this one a lot so try to extract

00:27:42.000 | some some reasonable advice so where do you tell someone to start if I'm

00:27:45.560 | calling in saying Ryan I watch those videos they resonate I watch you know

00:27:52.040 | discipline videos I know I want this in my life I know I'm missing and I'm all

00:27:55.200 | over the place what do I do tomorrow yeah I guess it would depend on where

00:28:01.320 | that person is I don't mean like that's interesting geographically but I mean

00:28:06.400 | like where are you in your life right are you a hundred and fifty pounds

00:28:09.920 | overweight I might say let's start with a walk right if you're in pretty decent

00:28:15.080 | shape I might say let's start with the run right like so I do think it depends

00:28:20.080 | like if I walked into your office and it was a disaster I might say let's start

00:28:24.520 | by cleaning up your desk right if you were someone who was over committed and

00:28:30.920 | and overbooked I might say well let's start by eliminating one thing from your

00:28:37.280 | to-do list each day not doing it right but like what is a task that we're gonna

00:28:42.160 | delegate or outsource or eliminate from your purview so you know what do you

00:28:47.440 | know what I'm saying like I think some people the discipline is you've got to

00:28:50.720 | get off your butt and start moving and then someone else I was just reading

00:28:55.360 | about Tom Brady like Tom Brady had to have the discipline to start taking one

00:29:01.280 | day off a week right like so so those are very opposite ends of the spectrum

00:29:06.400 | right here's a person whose discipline has taken them incredibly far but

00:29:11.840 | perhaps endangered or jeopardized other things that they're they really care

00:29:17.360 | about and then you have another person who doesn't have the life they want

00:29:21.720 | haven't hasn't realized the potential they they have and so they need to start

00:29:27.120 | small and build and so I guess maybe the first thing we want to look at is like

00:29:31.040 | are you a person who you don't have enough discipline or are you a person

00:29:35.520 | who is perhaps too driven too active too busy I would I probably personally lean

00:29:42.760 | more towards that end of the spectrum and so when I have thought about

00:29:46.480 | discipline it's been more like I'll give you an example I'm working on this book

00:29:51.520 | now and trying to say hey how can I do this book at the level that I want to do

00:29:58.000 | it but do it more sustainably do it not not not hate the process so much but do

00:30:05.560 | it more enjoyably at the same time and so I think it really depends on where

00:30:09.440 | you are on that spectrum oh interesting okay so so let me give you a specific

00:30:14.720 | scenario I'll give you two all right so so scenario number one because I hear

00:30:18.560 | this one a lot 23 out of school has a job is you know like I don't know maybe

00:30:26.040 | it's what I want to do maybe I don't doesn't have any real serious hobbies

00:30:29.920 | but sort of just out there in the world on their phone playing a little bit too

00:30:32.960 | much video games and they're in there early early in life like okay foundation

00:30:37.360 | lane time I'm feeling type a I don't know what to do with my energy I have

00:30:41.120 | ambition I have no target well start with that scenario maybe that's an easy

00:30:44.840 | one yeah so I think this goes to the the question that you talk about in your

00:30:50.480 | books which is like I want to do something great but I don't know what

00:30:53.360 | that is and you just said it have a number of vague sort of passions or

00:30:58.080 | interests well I think I think what I would do in that position is sort of

00:31:03.960 | first off where do I have time that I'm wasting right and video you've mentioned

00:31:08.200 | video games so it's like okay I'm gonna make this decision instead of video

00:31:11.120 | games I'm going to read or instead of video games I'm going to volunteer or

00:31:18.360 | attend this class or well I think what that person to me is really needing it's

00:31:23.400 | not more discipline per se but exposure to or an avenue to go down that begins

00:31:32.360 | to direct that energy and effort towards something constructive or positive right

00:31:38.040 | like for me the pivotal moment in my life my development of as a writer and I

00:31:42.320 | was in that position where I sort of like talented interested wanted to do

00:31:47.480 | something that wasn't you know it's sort of a normal nine-to-five job and I I end

00:31:52.520 | up starting to write for my college newspaper and this college newspaper

00:31:56.320 | introduces me to a number of people allows me to develop my skills and and

00:32:00.480 | thus puts in motion that thing so let's say I was out of school well you know

00:32:06.000 | maybe this is an email to someone that you admire that you want to you know do

00:32:10.440 | so you want to intern for maybe this is you know committing to some sort of

00:32:15.320 | charity project or some sort of group activity or I think you you've got to

00:32:19.440 | find something that you're directing this towards and it it might turn out

00:32:23.520 | that you don't like that thing as much as you think you do and you end up going

00:32:26.280 | in another direction but you've got to stop this sort of idea of like I'm just

00:32:30.400 | sitting around and that task or that thing is going to reveal itself to me

00:32:35.440 | that's not how it's gonna go interesting I mean so you're saying you need a

00:32:39.080 | target for disciplined energy discipline can apply in a vacuum again just okay

00:32:44.000 | I'm disciplined today you need to have things that you're directing your

00:32:46.600 | attention towards that seem valuable but then that's something now that you can

00:32:50.680 | you can okay pursue all right so then here's the harder scenario I guess is

00:32:54.280 | like you and I and you mentioned this before but like think about you and I

00:32:57.080 | are in a similar situation we're writers that has sort of spun out into sort of

00:33:03.520 | media companies we have you have the painted porch bookstore I have my

00:33:08.280 | academic career we we have a lot going on our issue is not laziness but our

00:33:14.240 | issue might be lack of lack of hitting potential in one particular area

00:33:19.240 | because of crowdedness so how do how do you and I think about discipline as

00:33:24.000 | people who do a lot we're not short on accomplishment but maybe you're doing

00:33:28.440 | too much I think you met less need the GM of the Rams right I don't know if I

00:33:34.920 | connected you guys anyway see the GM of the Rams and I went and I spoke to them

00:33:39.640 | maybe two three years ago and he he was sort of going over with me like the

00:33:43.840 | rules of the organization and one of the rules of the organization is the main

00:33:48.480 | thing is to keep the main thing the main thing which I love I just love I love

00:33:53.080 | that phrase and so I think for people like you and me as you have multiple

00:33:58.960 | things you're good at multiple things that produce revenue multiple things

00:34:04.000 | that produce rewards of all kinds you know it's it's it can be difficult to

00:34:10.640 | recall or remember or prioritize what the main thing is and so for me I've I

00:34:17.480 | like to do lots of things I have lots of interests but I have to sort I the

00:34:22.720 | discipline for me is the reminder of like what is the thing that drives all

00:34:27.160 | the other things what is the thing that only I can do right and so that's the

00:34:33.120 | actual writing of the books and the ideas right and so I've had that were

00:34:39.600 | you do you focus that your answer that question is just books I would you say

00:34:43.880 | it's podcast other things like someone else can't host your show but is it just

00:34:47.360 | books how do you answer it well it's someone else can't host the show but if

00:34:51.280 | I want to do the podcast then it's gonna mean organizationally or system wise I

00:34:57.240 | have to set up systems so the podcast takes as little time as possible right

00:35:04.200 | so it's like I have to hire a producer I have to hire a scheduler I have to hire

00:35:07.920 | this is one of the reasons that we were talking about this earlier why I did a

00:35:12.320 | deal with a network like I want to limit the imposition of that thing as much as

00:35:18.160 | possible so that it does not impede on the main thing which is me sitting down

00:35:24.080 | and writing but then also even that like okay what is a research assistant cost

00:35:29.080 | right what are the what's an office that I need to set up I just I just think

00:35:33.440 | about like how how do the decisions I make the schedule I have the priorities

00:35:39.080 | I have how are at the end of the day they facilitating the main driving thing

00:35:45.720 | and and I can't really compromise on that do you have a rule in terms of

00:35:53.200 | timing for writing is it this is what gets the time first it's it's this many

00:35:57.880 | hours it's the first mornings yeah I'll give you a good example of me not not

00:36:03.320 | falling being able to fulfill it completely so last week because of

00:36:07.800 | publicity for the book and because I had three different talks I had one full

00:36:15.280 | morning to write and I missed like five out of seven bedtimes or something like

00:36:24.280 | that right so like for my two main things which would be writing and family

00:36:28.680 | I I agreed to things that took me away from those main things and that's not

00:36:35.520 | how I want my life to be I also as an adult understand sometimes you're

00:36:39.360 | temporarily out of balance and you know it but I could I remember what I was

00:36:44.440 | thinking about as it was happening was how easily this could become the norm

00:36:47.960 | and how I'm going to have to be even more disciplined as fees go up as

00:36:53.440 | opportunities increase as asks increase that I don't allow that week to be the

00:36:59.960 | norm the week the norm has to be this week which is that I have written every

00:37:05.000 | morning and done every bedtime so it's it's really about I think it begins

00:37:09.200 | ironically you talked about the the sort of two different ends like a someone

00:37:13.900 | just starting and someone who's in it at the core it's like what it what are you

00:37:17.560 | trying to do what is the what is the important thing what's the target you're

00:37:21.040 | aiming at because if you don't know that it's really hard to be disciplined right

00:37:26.640 | well I mean how do you figure out this is insider baseball yeah but there's

00:37:31.080 | this this weird tension in both of our worlds between the writing is the main

00:37:36.160 | thing right that that's the core of our our success and the thing that can't be

00:37:40.000 | replicated the the online media the podcast etc really supports the writing

00:37:47.080 | in the sense of it it's what you know it's what allows stillness or courage to

00:37:52.840 | hit number one it's what allows the publishers will keep giving us money to

00:37:56.920 | write books or what have you and so then it's this weird tension and I haven't

00:38:01.080 | quite been able to figure that out so on the one hand I'm like the the online

00:38:04.120 | media company piece of it needs to be contained but it's very important

00:38:07.720 | because that's what will allow you to keep doing the books but there's this

00:38:10.680 | other counterfactual of what if you said no I'm just going straight care Robert

00:38:14.320 | Caro mode or McCullum only I'm just gonna think and write and put out the

00:38:18.160 | best books and some will sell better than others and I don't know what

00:38:21.880 | happened that counterfactual you I think that yeah I I think the key to being

00:38:26.440 | Robert Caro is to be born 90 years ago right like that's the key part of that

00:38:31.800 | strategy right like he comes from another like he has been putting out

00:38:37.240 | books since 1970 right he has a 50-year or I guess a 40-year head start on us so

00:38:42.920 | that is it it came out in a different environment it came out of a certain

00:38:46.760 | kind of scarcity it's like like if you want to be Steve McQueen like you're

00:38:52.680 | gonna have to find a different way to be Steve McQueen because the way Steve

00:38:55.640 | McQueen was Steve McQueen was from a different media environment right so I

00:38:59.680 | think understanding that some of the the just like people want to go back to

00:39:05.040 | living in the 19 you know America in the 1950s like that's not gonna happen right

00:39:08.960 | like fundamentally things have changed for the better right but one of the

00:39:15.480 | things I am sort of heartened by and it highlights the tension you're talking

00:39:19.760 | about which is like the number of people that I hear now that tell me they heard

00:39:25.080 | about me from YouTube is like probably it's probably the dominant way that I

00:39:30.360 | hear from people now or that people discover the work now what you're not

00:39:33.800 | just we're not subscribers now there it's high now right it's like 750,000

00:39:39.040 | something like that and it wasn't long ago that it was a hundred I remember

00:39:43.040 | thousand yeah it was very low yes it's been it grew very very fast and that is

00:39:48.360 | the power of the algorithms and you know the immense size of those

00:39:54.840 | platforms so I understand that people are not walking through bookstores and

00:40:00.600 | randomly discovering authors for the most part that's that's a reality so so

00:40:05.680 | yes if you want the work to resonate and reach people you have to have these

00:40:09.080 | online tools or you have to access these different platforms it's just thinking

00:40:13.800 | about it in a way that you know the mask doesn't eat the face so to speak right

00:40:19.280 | like that that you don't it here's here's the weird thing YouTube is easier

00:40:25.520 | than writing right like the I've worked on a couple of books for people where we

00:40:31.120 | tried to take a YouTube channel and turn it into a book or a podcast and turn it

00:40:34.600 | into a book now you might think this would be really easy it's actually quite

00:40:38.760 | hard because the visual side of the medium does most of the work like if you

00:40:44.400 | think about like what a dramatic drone shot to go to the rituals and the Cameron

00:40:49.120 | Haynes of the world a dramatic drone shot in an exotic location you know

00:40:54.800 | inspirational music and you know a voiceover right that paints a scene that

00:41:02.720 | is extraordinarily difficult to do in just words and so I see people more

00:41:10.680 | often than not start with writing which is a tough medium and then get seduced

00:41:15.880 | by or stolen away from these other mediums and what gets relegated or

00:41:23.320 | abandoned is the hard day to day miss of sitting down in front of a blank page so

00:41:28.920 | I have tried to set up systems where I take advantage of the platforms and I

00:41:33.560 | benefit from them and I'm I'm agnostic as to what medium the message is getting

00:41:39.040 | out but as an artist or a creator what I love is the craft of the writing and

00:41:45.520 | that's the thing that I feel like I am world-class at so I want to be

00:41:51.000 | uncompromising on my protection of that space and that skill I mean I think that

00:41:57.440 | all is right I was I was thinking you know the other day that why don't

00:42:01.960 | fiction writers have this issue if you think about well-known fiction writers

00:42:05.960 | for the most part do not have large online platforms John Grisham does two

00:42:13.080 | weeks of publicity once a year when his book comes out he semi famously when his

00:42:18.680 | assistant retired didn't bother to hire a new one because he said no one has my

00:42:23.320 | number only my editor has my number you know yeah but on the other hand when I'm

00:42:26.880 | thinking about fiction it it looks like yeah but it's incredibly more narrow the

00:42:31.720 | past to actually being successful there so either you're a Grisham or a king or

00:42:35.520 | you're selected for a book club and so that's probably the price we pay to be

00:42:39.520 | nonfiction writers is we don't have the option that fiction writers have of I

00:42:44.800 | disappear and right I really don't do anything else except for the two weeks

00:42:48.280 | of publicity when my book comes out we don't have that option but many more of

00:42:52.040 | us I guess can make a living at this than fiction writers I mean you know the

00:42:56.400 | I think that's better but yeah I think that's right I wouldn't I wouldn't say

00:42:59.520 | that that nonfiction is more a meritocracy than fiction but I would say

00:43:04.240 | that the individual has more agency in nonfiction so like and I don't want to

00:43:10.760 | dismiss the the fiction authors who have been successful and say that it's luck

00:43:14.280 | but I would say that it is a industry in which breaking through is a side of

00:43:19.280 | publishing in which breaking through requires more gatekeepers more breaks

00:43:24.960 | going your way and more sort of institutional support or I feel like an

00:43:33.800 | interesting self-help author with a somewhat new or you know a unique

00:43:39.800 | message has a reasonable chance of breaking through getting a toehold and

00:43:45.160 | like developing an audience whereas like the the fiction world is littered with

00:43:52.920 | talented potentially brilliant authors or creators who their books sell 66

00:44:00.600 | copies and they'll they'll they'll never get in front of an audience and there's

00:44:05.880 | really no and it's it's not because they're not working hard enough it's

00:44:09.840 | because there isn't the pathways that you're talking about to do that like for

00:44:14.920 | you and I like we write a book and then we can go make videos about the same

00:44:20.040 | ideas in that book and those videos can reach people in and thus sell the book

00:44:24.840 | if I wrote a sci-fi book about you know some planet in another solar system and

00:44:31.080 | it's this complex universe interesting characters it's a whole world it could

00:44:36.040 | be brilliantly done but I can't make videos about a world that nobody knows

00:44:40.440 | about and nobody cares about to draw attention to a book that nobody knows

00:44:45.440 | about and nobody cares about whereas me making videos about self-discipline you

00:44:50.960 | know there are people who are looking for help with self-discipline who then

00:44:54.720 | in watching the video might read the book and that that I I do think you want

00:44:59.600 | to as you seek out career paths obviously there's callings and you can't

00:45:04.480 | ignore a calling but I think you want to go towards places where you have agency

00:45:10.120 | it's like do you want to be the 50th Mexican restaurant in your town that's

00:45:15.680 | gonna be a hard way to break through and so when I think about what I'm doing I

00:45:19.600 | try to think like you know is is success here in my power or not right so so

00:45:26.960 | nonfiction right not meritocracy but many more paths many more paths to to

00:45:31.680 | non-trivial sales than fiction but you would almost say look if you want to be

00:45:35.880 | a fiction writer to face face the reality of this is how the gatekeepers

00:45:41.840 | work this is their credentialing that works if you want to be a literary

00:45:44.200 | novelist and be like well I have to have these proximate goals first of getting

00:45:47.920 | to the Iowa workshop or having an editorial position at in plus one or at

00:45:53.920 | Harper's I mean that's that's where you would need to be to get through the

00:45:57.600 | gatekeepers and and it's a world where you can't just say I want the world to

00:46:01.160 | be the way I want it to be so I want to just write my brilliant novel during

00:46:04.840 | National Novel Writing Month and and it break through you have to say oh here's

00:46:08.840 | the hurdles I have to get through and if I'm not making those hurdles then it's

00:46:12.960 | probably not going to work out where we're nonfiction writing right we do

00:46:16.160 | have we do it we do have more paths I mean I don't know what I hear from

00:46:20.040 | novelists you say like their their agents or their editors are really

00:46:23.040 | pushing them to be on social media and they don't want to be distracted they

00:46:25.920 | don't know what to do and and I don't really know how to answer because in my

00:46:28.600 | mind is like I don't think it's gonna matter either way right right they're

00:46:32.440 | just giving you general advice because they don't really there are no

00:46:35.720 | publishers gonna be like hey it's inherently a crapshoot let's hope that

00:46:39.240 | the gatekeepers you know anoint you it's funny because you know you talk about

00:46:43.480 | you know be so good they can't ignore you I I don't think anyone means that in

00:46:47.760 | the sense of like just make something amazing and then the world will beat a

00:46:52.160 | path to your door as Emerson said it's it's also figuring out in like who is

00:46:58.360 | the they so you know so good they can't ignore you who is it and then what is it

00:47:04.160 | that they want to see and how do you get in front of them you have to have the

00:47:08.680 | ability to break down that world like it's like if you wanted to run for

00:47:12.580 | office okay what are the qualifications I don't mean like can you do the job

00:47:18.460 | because we all know that's not really a qualification these days but like front

00:47:22.360 | what are what are the filtering mechanisms what are the gatekeepers and

00:47:26.280 | what do you need to bring to them to stand out or to distinguish yourself

00:47:31.600 | from other people so they can't ignore you it's not simply just being what you

00:47:38.080 | think you want to be and knowing that that has something to offer the world

00:47:42.520 | you have to figure out the peculiar logic or you know roadmap of the thing

00:47:49.800 | you're trying to break through that that that is what's so key about it right you

00:47:55.720 | have to find find your entryway which is hard and it might take experimentation

00:48:01.080 | and you see this pattern a lot when something clicks and it might not be the

00:48:05.280 | first three things you try then being willing to do the battering ram model

00:48:09.240 | hey this is working now we have to smash through that that opening we have to put

00:48:14.940 | all of our energy we have to run with it so no when something is working you have

00:48:19.440 | to run with it I would this is the advice I was giving to a young writer

00:48:22.480 | the other day is I was saying it's two things it's a it's the search and

00:48:27.840 | exploration and exploitation it's hard to tell like what's the package of the

00:48:32.480 | what you're talking about who you are how you're presenting it that's going to

00:48:35.960 | catch and so you the thing you try might not work but when you do find something

00:48:41.040 | that catches then it's the exploitation part you have to then really with

00:48:46.000 | discipline pursue that and so let me ask you about that as long as we're getting

00:48:50.400 | sort of insider baseball down there needs and all the other metaphors here

00:48:53.960 | you're very good at that and and you know I've known your work forever I mean

00:48:58.160 | I remember I don't know if I knew you specifically but we had friends in

00:49:01.800 | common back then probably probably through Ferris I remember when word got

00:49:06.280 | around that Ryan holiday the marketer the author of hello online is going to

00:49:11.760 | write a book about stoicism and I remember having that conversations with

00:49:16.120 | someone thinking you were going to write a text but I don't know what you were

00:49:18.280 | doing but like this is never going to work and I don't know how that's an

00:49:22.400 | interesting story to get into but at some point I don't think was right away

00:49:24.960 | that's what I want to ask you about at some point when you realize bringing

00:49:29.080 | this particular philosophy alive was was clicking you yeah really got focused so

00:49:34.960 | the daily stoic became a brand it became a focus it became a structure you you

00:49:41.040 | had a format that people could anticipate for the book so maybe walk us

00:49:44.760 | through how your exploration exploitation story when it came to kind

00:49:49.600 | of coming across this and then how you disciplined and diligently built up this

00:49:54.720 | like really powerful Empire around it well I knew I wanted to write about

00:49:59.120 | stoicism that's what I was interested in that's what I was excited about that's

00:50:03.200 | the style of writing I liked but I also understood that you know people were not

00:50:07.560 | lining up to give book deals to you know at that time like 23 24 year old college

00:50:14.540 | dropouts who had not even studied philosophy right and so I knew that to

00:50:21.520 | break into publishing I probably had to do something else first to then have a

00:50:26.840 | little bit of leverage or power to transition towards what I wanted to write

00:50:30.200 | about and so I said you know what are my strengths and my strengths were I was a

00:50:34.600 | marketer and I had I had seen a lot of stuff I had interesting opinions about

00:50:39.960 | how marketing work and I had a lot of connections and a track record as a

00:50:43.960 | marketer so my first book was about media and marketing I did I like an

00:50:48.120 | e-book in between there but then the next book was this book about so

00:50:52.600 | philosophy and even then I was thinking look I want to really nerd out about

00:50:56.600 | philosophy but that is not what the audience wants but the audience wants

00:51:00.640 | is something to help them be better at what they do to solve their problems so

00:51:05.800 | the obstacle is the way you know the word stoicism appears like maybe once or

00:51:11.120 | twice in the entire book that is a book about overcoming obstacles I happen to

00:51:16.560 | be using and basing it on stoic philosophy but that is not what the book

00:51:21.280 | is explicitly about and that's for a good reason and so I what I was really

00:51:30.080 | doing was getting more and more power more and more leverage more and more

00:51:34.640 | control over an audience as I went and then got closer and closer to what I

00:51:40.680 | wanted the daily stoic happened to be a breakthrough both platform wise but also

00:51:47.840 | like process wise because it was a page a day in the book but then I started the

00:51:54.320 | email list which was also a page a day and the ability to just have somewhere

00:52:00.040 | to direct that energy something to be very disciplined about that was like

00:52:04.560 | huge for me well that's a good case study too for people or think about

00:52:09.480 | exploration versus exploitation is that for years and years and you still have

00:52:13.680 | it today it's one of my favorite newsletters you have this very high

00:52:17.160 | quality newsletter the reading list and I recommend that everyone sign up for

00:52:21.440 | that I guess at Ryan holiday net and it's where you would share what you read

00:52:26.200 | each month which is like a great concept it's on brand for you as someone who

00:52:30.480 | reads a lot and you sort of lives this intellectual life and but I watched it

00:52:34.180 | sort of slowly grow towards you know a hundred thousand people or whatever it

00:52:38.960 | was over years over years and when the daily stoic idea came out after a year

00:52:44.160 | that thing was it was a hundred thousand three hundred thousand six hundred

00:52:47.040 | thousand and and to me that really encapsulate there's there's there's two

00:52:50.800 | things that play I mean just having a really good idea isn't necessarily going

00:52:55.200 | to explode it's the the right idea push there's some concept of sort of feeling

00:53:00.840 | out what's working what's working with with my audience and then same thing

00:53:04.760 | with your YouTube page it's built around the daily stoic not around like it was

00:53:09.480 | before Ryan holiday and there's something if there's a clarity in that

00:53:12.760 | that works for people and it's hard to predict in advance what structure is

00:53:16.560 | going to work with people but but when they do I mean you pushed on those with

00:53:21.160 | a lot of effort once they were working so to me that's a really valuable case

00:53:24.280 | study that I'm studying when thinking it comes down to your network really and if

00:53:29.720 | you think about like let's say you really love investing you you trade

00:53:32.680 | stocks on the side you're building up this small portfolio you know you're

00:53:36.680 | you're learning and then you know one day you want to strike out on your own

00:53:41.520 | right it can't be the moment that you strike out on your own that you're like

00:53:46.120 | oh I should meet people who might be interested in investing you know in my

00:53:50.160 | fund that you have to be doing these two things simultaneously which is you have

00:53:54.960 | to be developing your competence and your skill and your confidence but you

00:53:59.520 | also have to be developing a network of colleagues of patrons of you know

00:54:08.120 | resources of potential investors etc and then it's there's a moment where you

00:54:12.440 | transition you you call you call all those chips in and so for me like the

00:54:17.960 | the daily stoic was as you said like I had written about so philosophy I had an

00:54:24.360 | online audience etc and then I wanted to launch this daily newsletter but that

00:54:28.720 | newsletter didn't start at zero right that that newsletter I emailed the

00:54:32.840 | hundred or so thousand subscribers to daily to the to the reading list email

00:54:37.960 | maybe it's 50 I don't know where it was at that time but let's say it's in the

00:54:40.920 | high five figures low six figures I told them about the daily stoic the day that

00:54:45.920 | it launched and I believe we started the daily stoic in let's call it September

00:54:52.320 | of 2016 with roughly 10,000 people right so that 10,000 is now about 500,000 and

00:55:00.760 | you know it's like almost 2 million on Instagram it's almost a million on

00:55:05.160 | YouTube it's different on different platforms but I wasn't starting at zero

00:55:09.720 | I was starting with a large number of which a percentage were interested in

00:55:16.040 | betting on me on this thing and that was enough to jumpstart that process so you

00:55:22.080 | have to you you can't just be developing the so good they can't ignore you thing

00:55:26.960 | that we're talking about you can't just be developing the discipline of how to

00:55:30.680 | do it you also have to be cultivating the resources in the relationship and

00:55:35.640 | the audience and the platform that you're gonna need to support you when

00:55:39.600 | you go do that thing right but there's a discipline to the idea

00:55:43.880 | yes daily stoic I want to be more I want more stoicism in my life I like Ryan

00:55:52.440 | holidays writing about stoicism if I got an email about this every day it would

00:55:57.960 | help me accomplish the goal of remembering to be more stoic in my

00:56:01.800 | everyday life so that there's a the properly disciplined idea so what I'm

00:56:06.040 | doing now is basically taking the concept of your book and stretching it

00:56:09.280 | in the places that is inappropriate but I just a plain idea yeah I would just

00:56:15.320 | say but the the actual discipline of the daily stoic the real beneficiary of it

00:56:20.080 | is me like the having to make a thing every day and I have for four years

00:56:26.800 | wait no six years so that's basically a free book every year that I that I write

00:56:33.880 | that process and then doing the videos about it and doing the the daily podcast

00:56:40.800 | version of it like my game has exponentially improved as a result of

00:56:46.440 | the forcing function of the output or the thing that I signed up for so like

00:56:51.680 | you know the discipline like one of the one of the great stoic lines is

00:56:56.520 | well-being is realized by small steps but it's no small thing I have gotten so

00:57:02.480 | much better I think one of the problems with writing compared to a lot of

00:57:05.840 | professions it's probably maybe it's similar to like being a movie director

00:57:09.120 | is that you only get so many reps like I've written more books than most people

00:57:15.400 | and even I only have like a dozen at bats right like that's it's hard to be

00:57:21.080 | great at something when you only get to do it so many times yeah you're doing

00:57:25.760 | the little pieces of it but you're not like actually getting the stage time the

00:57:30.840 | way a comedian would or an investor would or a you know a leader would

00:57:35.840 | you're not getting like the day-to-dayness of it and so I I have

00:57:40.800 | very much benefited from the function or the process of like having to be

00:57:46.640 | disciplined about making this thing all the time well those reps was the exact

00:57:51.160 | word a friend of mine who's a magazine editor former magazine editor when I was

00:57:55.920 | first deciding whether I was going to sign my first contract with the New

00:57:59.760 | Yorker and I was like well it's going to be a lot of writing to do that was

00:58:04.360 | exactly his terminology is no no you need to do that and actually put a

00:58:08.040 | pretty big word count in the contract because it's reps like yes and that was

00:58:11.760 | the way he conceptualized the the advantage of of that writing setup is

00:58:16.760 | you're going to get reps to editing it has to be at a high level or you know

00:58:21.080 | they're not even going to sniff it and you can do it again and again and again

00:58:24.320 | then when I was deciding should I do a column for four or five months where it

00:58:28.240 | was every twice a month again it was all about reps so yeah I hear you on that

00:58:31.960 | is and then you're doing you're doing the work again and again yeah so that's

00:58:37.240 | interesting well sorry audience to write like from an audience yeah the the the

00:58:42.080 | tightrope of like if it doesn't work like you know very quickly whether it's

00:58:47.560 | not working or not and that that makes you better because you have to be alive

00:58:50.880 | and alert to it yeah so it's interesting so we're getting some nuances here

00:58:54.720 | around different applications of discipline so like an idea being

00:58:59.120 | disciplined meaning that it's it's very clear but then the discipline as a means

00:59:03.640 | of actual career development it means of reps as a means of actually you know

00:59:07.800 | building out skills there's a lot that comes out of this so I know we're

00:59:13.320 | getting short on time so I know you have a another interview coming out but I

00:59:16.760 | would be remiss if I did it on a podcast we talk a lot about the deep life and

00:59:20.920 | making radical decisions to affirm things that are really valuable to you

00:59:25.200 | you have to tell us about you're in what year one year in or one and a half years

00:59:30.120 | into owning your own bookstore which yes to me as a writer is very romantic so so

00:59:35.000 | are you going to fan the flames of my romance here or crash crash think down

00:59:40.000 | the reality I don't know which way you're gonna go with this but tell us

00:59:42.120 | about being a writer who now owns their own small-town bookstore I I love every

00:59:47.760 | every part of it so I will I will perpetuate the the romanticism of it I

00:59:53.240 | have no regrets so far but that that may well be because it's it's gone well so

00:59:59.000 | far I mean it was certainly difficult the pandemic made it more expensive take

01:00:02.400 | longer the elements have not been particularly cooperative we had to you

01:00:07.040 | know spend a bunch of money putting on a new roof and new ACs and all sorts of

01:00:10.280 | stuff but I would say the bookstore as a home base HQ sort of multi-use space has

01:00:20.920 | been one of the best not even decisions but investments I've ever made in myself

01:00:26.320 | and I think it's helped me up my game across the board so I guess I'm not

01:00:31.400 | saying everyone should open a bookstore but like in a world where everyone tends

01:00:37.560 | to default to doing digital things at scale I've actually really liked having

01:00:43.840 | something physical tangible rooted in a place that is my base of operations for

01:00:51.200 | for all the stuff that I do I would say the the if if I am trying to in effort

01:00:56.760 | of full disclosure the hardest thing has been actually the success of it you know

01:01:03.720 | people come from like all over and they they want to see me and so I kind of

01:01:07.640 | have to like hide out a little bit like it's not the the first year and a half

01:01:12.040 | from the pandemic was wonderful because it was like I had this huge space and

01:01:16.000 | then I had a reason why it was empty and now you know like even my wife because

01:01:21.800 | it's in this small town you know my wife will come to work and she'll be like I

01:01:25.800 | didn't get anything done because like everyone kept coming to say hi to me not

01:01:30.080 | like fans just like people who live here and so having to be disciplined and set

01:01:35.960 | boundaries has been you know one of the the lessons that I've been learning you

01:01:41.200 | know the last couple months for sure

01:01:44.680 | that we love you the rain oh sorry sorry what was the last right at you are right

01:01:53.200 | at saying having to set boundaries oh yeah so so having to set boundaries and

01:01:58.680 | be disciplined about you know protecting personal space protecting workspace like

01:02:04.040 | protecting like the bubble so to speak for both of us has been a challenge that

01:02:10.800 | I think we're getting better as a result of having to do and and that's that's

01:02:16.200 | part of being you know public in your work but it's also just like somebody

01:02:21.320 | working at an office right now has to be like look I can't say hi to you every

01:02:24.920 | time I walk to go fill up my water bottle like I'm never gonna get anything

01:02:27.680 | done so what are you say home base so what are the different activities is it

01:02:31.680 | is it writing podcasting videoing like when you says your home base for

01:02:35.040 | everything you're doing what what happens there yeah I mean my it's my

01:02:38.640 | office where I write it's where all the employees that work at my company have

01:02:43.600 | office have offices in it's right down the street from my house so like it's

01:02:49.000 | you know when it's where I get packages delivered or you know it's it's like

01:02:53.440 | it's the HQ which was helpful also you know I think we may have talked about

01:02:58.880 | this last time but like getting this stuff out of my house has also helped me

01:03:03.600 | be more have better boundaries at home right so like I'm not coming home from

01:03:09.640 | work and then getting lost in work because work is here and home is here

01:03:15.160 | and and so I just I think that there's something there's a reason that you know

01:03:23.040 | you don't want your desk to be in your bedroom you don't you want to separate

01:03:26.680 | these things yeah well I mean we talked about this last time but I definitely

01:03:30.640 | blame you for the HQ where I work because again it was you early pandemic

01:03:35.560 | yeah see me photos I was like man you have a place to go yeah and and even

01:03:40.720 | pandemic aside like you have a place to go that's not your not your house and

01:03:45.080 | yeah you corrupted but it's been great I love this notion it has worked for me

01:03:51.080 | you know my producer Jesse who's here will tell you we're only now because it's

01:03:55.640 | post pandemic more people are coming through only now really doing the

01:03:58.880 | serious renovation we should have done a year ago but every church painted we've

01:04:04.080 | re we're re hanging things you know professionally this afternoon Jesse and

01:04:07.800 | I are building tables that should be fun and it feels on the one hand it feels

01:04:12.920 | like a huge indulgence yes on the other hand it feels like what a necessary

01:04:18.280 | investment for this particular type of life I mean yeah you you invest and I

01:04:23.800 | think the podcast helped me segment things financially because I just think

01:04:27.760 | oh I'm just taking ad money from the podcast and reinvesting it into the

01:04:31.480 | space right through the podcast so it can be sort of conceptualized it doesn't

01:04:34.440 | feel like I'm taking money out of the you know kids college fund or something

01:04:38.440 | like this and so that that is helpful but but that was yeah that was your

01:04:42.200 | influence and I think that's been that's been great so place matters is basically

01:04:46.440 | the lesson there yeah the experience the place matters for your work yeah it's

01:04:52.040 | like a vibe or a headspace that you get into and I think it just it creates some

01:04:58.960 | separation that's required also to be balanced into it to have to have

01:05:05.200 | boundaries too so like like for instance like if I was walking down the street

01:05:09.400 | and someone said recognized me and said hello I'd be like hello but when when

01:05:13.000 | someone comes to the office and tries you know they're like hey is Ryan here

01:05:18.400 | can I see them I actually don't feel bad saying like you know passing a message

01:05:22.720 | no I can't because like I'm at work right like I'm working this is where I

01:05:27.720 | go to work it's not a it's I've hung out here before but it's not a hangout space

01:05:32.360 | right and so the ability to sort of know what each thing is for I also think is

01:05:39.760 | sort of a function of discipline yeah exactly I mean having the formal location

01:05:45.440 | having the formal address having the formal office and people's expectations

01:05:48.640 | yeah expectations are different well Ryan I think we're at the we're at the

01:05:53.160 | top of the the hour so it's promised we'll wrap it up but but this has been a

01:05:57.600 | pleasure as always so the book is discipline is destiny I'm gonna I'm

01:06:04.480 | gonna list the places I tell people to go for you and you tell me what I'm

01:06:07.640 | missing okay so okay so you have the daily stoic newsletter which is very

01:06:15.200 | popular you get the email every day with this touch of stoicism to keep things

01:06:19.360 | going and that's daily stoic net dot-com dot-com there we go dot-com there's a

01:06:25.000 | daily stoic podcast where it's a daily most days a short podcast and then you

01:06:30.640 | have interviews once or twice a week that are longer fantastic podcast

01:06:35.440 | YouTube is daily stoic and there you have videos it's Ryan against like the

01:06:40.560 | email but visual you get the videos pushing on different parts of stoicism a

01:06:44.760 | lot of aspirational views of your ranch of your bookstore and then there's a

01:06:51.240 | whole mess of social media that you know you can all ignore do I have that about

01:06:54.200 | right is that yeah you know you're so sure though I do point you by the way is

01:06:58.000 | my example of social media done right I mean you you post things on there it's a

01:07:02.280 | good way to reach people but you're not on there battling with people you're not

01:07:07.640 | on your phone trying to see what your mentions I always point to your Twitter

01:07:10.920 | page when authors ask me what they should do on Twitter I was like do what

01:07:14.160 | Ryan is doing it's very clear it's a stoic quote it's once a day it works

01:07:18.600 | well with how people use Twitter and he doesn't have to be in battles with you

01:07:25.440 | know QA of all the networks the one to personally spend the least amount of

01:07:30.920 | time on it's definitely Twitter yeah yeah it's the one that's the one that

01:07:35.120 | will break your brain yeah Twitter will break your brain Instagram will just

01:07:38.600 | melt your brain into like not very useful I'm just watching these videos

01:07:43.280 | yes but Twitter is going to make your make you feel like the apocalypse is

01:07:47.680 | here you need to fight someone or you're about to die I mean Twitter has a

01:07:50.240 | dynamic I love your Twitter approach which is I don't even know if you even

01:07:53.760 | touch it I mean it's just these quotes I imagine you have a document somewhere

01:07:57.760 | with these quotes and there's someone who's putting them out there and I love

01:08:01.360 | to imagine all the people who are angrily I don't know the terminology for

01:08:04.560 | Twitter but you know replying like well Ryan blah blah blah and then like so

01:08:08.000 | yes I like yeah when he sees that that's really gonna get him and then when they

01:08:11.020 | realize you never see it I get a little bit of joy out of that no even like I've

01:08:14.560 | been doing Twitter threads recently where I'll like I'll take an article or

01:08:17.760 | an idea and I'll try to break it down into like a 20 tweet thread like I write

01:08:21.720 | that in in Google Docs I never see Twitter you know I don't even upload it

01:08:26.160 | into the thing that then posted on Twitter because it's a toxic cesspool

01:08:31.280 | that you should spend as little time as possible and but if people are there I'm

01:08:35.160 | happy to deliver up some ideas yeah just follow Ryan get me Ryan's yeah once a

01:08:40.400 | inspiring quotes and and and never ever just as able to send button yes or

01:08:46.560 | whatever I don't know the buttons I don't know how it works people have

01:08:48.720 | learned them don't look at me for advice about social media all right well Ryan

01:08:51.520 | thank you very much this is this is great I know the books going to be the

01:08:54.560 | monster my audience loves this topic so appreciate it as always and we'll talk

01:08:59.640 | again soon thanks man all right and that was my

01:09:03.160 | conversation with Ryan holiday I'm back here now with Jesse we're gonna talk

01:09:10.280 | about some of our main takeaways from that interview before we do let me first

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01:13:45.860 | that was our first videotaped interview we just did I think it was a great

01:13:49.520 | conversation we've had Ryan on the show before it's been a minute since since

01:13:53.960 | we've had them so it's good to catch up I'm curious about your main takeaways

01:13:58.520 | I would say one of the things I really picked up out of this interview was this

01:14:05.600 | I have two ideas but first this notion of discipline needs a target so like if

01:14:13.480 | you want to be more disciplined what you actually first need is activities that

01:14:17.440 | you care about which can then be the target or receptacle for the discipline

01:14:22.720 | that you're going to build up so you need the right things to become

01:14:24.800 | disciplined about at first that that made a lot of sense to me also what made

01:14:28.560 | a lot of sense was this idea that discipline is cumulative that it is a

01:14:32.760 | reasonable goal to say I want to be 20% more disciplined than I am right now but

01:14:37.800 | it's not a reasonable goal to say I want to be David Goggins next month and so

01:14:41.000 | getting started somewhere reaching a certain level then moving to the next

01:14:46.200 | level to move to the next level that's how you work your way up to be a very

01:14:49.680 | disciplined person not just going from from zero to 60 yeah I don't think it

01:14:55.480 | really ever ends either I think it just keeps on going you know yeah and I think

01:15:00.960 | it's also interesting that we we ended up discussing for a while a notion of

01:15:05.160 | discipline that was actually about doing less and I don't know if that's just

01:15:09.320 | unique to me and Ryan I think it's probably not I think there's a lot of

01:15:11.920 | people in a similar situation but you Ryan and Tom Brady baby me Ryan and Tom

01:15:15.840 | Brady who was mentioned also in the interview we all share many things the

01:15:20.640 | three of us including needing to be disciplined about not doing too much and

01:15:26.880 | focusing on the things that matter I mean between the three of us it's not

01:15:30.280 | that we haven't been successful between the three of us we have like what six

01:15:33.520 | Super Bowl rings seven seven yeah so between me Ryan holiday and Tom Brady

01:15:38.880 | seven Super Bowl rings I don't know how many league MVP so you know we know what

01:15:44.240 | we're talking about - I think - league MVPs you know that he's got a 30 million

01:15:49.360 | dollar year for an ouncer after he stops playing did you know that is it really

01:15:53.440 | yeah he's making bank what's he what was his a Tampa Bay he always takes a little

01:16:00.000 | bit less so he's probably making 40 this year I would think right so he's gonna

01:16:04.960 | have to cut back his life Roger signed one for 50 he's so he's making bank - I

01:16:10.640 | think he's the highest right now so Brady okay so Brady's got to cut back

01:16:14.200 | his lifestyle is what you're saying when he becomes an announcer exactly you go

01:16:18.320 | from 40 to 30 million between here's what I'll just say I mean between me

01:16:22.520 | Ryan holiday and Tom Brady we're averaging more than 40 million dollars a

01:16:27.080 | year salary right now so like we know something something's going on between

01:16:31.080 | the three of us we have over 30 million dollars worth of media contracts next

01:16:34.840 | year so again let's just use that as social proof but I thought that was

01:16:39.120 | interesting because you know Ryan and I have very similar trajectories he's a

01:16:42.080 | little younger than me but I got started writing a little younger so we we line

01:16:46.000 | up pretty well so we've gone through a lot of this together coming up in

01:16:51.200 | writing building out these other things around writing really desperately trying

01:16:57.000 | to make sure that the writing itself is protected because without it nothing

01:16:59.520 | else matters but also recognizing that without the other stuff you're gonna

01:17:02.480 | disappear as a writer it's a really hard tightrope and you guys have the same

01:17:06.160 | publisher right yeah yeah we both are portfolio which is an imprint at

01:17:11.600 | Penguins we're both portfolio writers yeah I had four things I wanted to kind

01:17:17.120 | of ask you about from the interview all right one is cold bass what do you do

01:17:22.560 | you take cold showers are you doing that you hear people talk about all the time

01:17:25.120 | yeah I know it's big now or like cold plunge and then like sauna cold punch

01:17:29.640 | sauna or just even cold shower some people do that if they don't have the

01:17:32.560 | access to the other facilities and stuff well you're more up on these type of

01:17:35.520 | things to me is any of this in your routine yet yeah I started taking cold

01:17:40.280 | showers but then I didn't really like it Gonzaga just got brand new weight room

01:17:43.360 | with new cold tubes plunges so I'm gonna start going on that well so from what I

01:17:49.400 | understand and from what I understand let me let me cite my sources here I have

01:17:53.720 | one source so I just coincidentally like the other day was reading my friend

01:17:59.880 | Steve Magnus who's been on the show before he's a Brad Stolberg's the co-host

01:18:04.440 | of growth EQ podcast together and he's a athletic he's a running coach and was a

01:18:09.840 | high-level runner he did a Twitter thread about cold plunges because

01:18:14.640 | they're so popular and basically the takeaway from his thread seemed to be

01:18:17.600 | okay the and Huberman he timed in on this thread was interesting data is

01:18:23.160 | accumulating but we still don't completely understand it Steve's best

01:18:26.880 | guess is yes there are some these various benefits exist they're probably

01:18:35.280 | no different than what you get from like any sort of exercise mm-hmm so there's

01:18:41.040 | like some so if you do both yeah like it but but it's probably not doing

01:18:45.800 | something special I know if you hear like Laird Hamilton talk about it I

01:18:49.240 | think Laird has really influenced like how Joe Rogan talks about it they have a

01:18:55.760 | lot of claims yeah I think where it's like a very specific reaction that's

01:18:59.280 | causing all this and and Steve was saying maybe but like the best evidence

01:19:03.560 | they have now it's probably like it does you know it releases some chemicals to

01:19:06.440 | feel good there is a stress response that that you know all these things are

01:19:09.360 | kind of positive but you get the same thing running for 20 minutes you get the

01:19:12.680 | same thing from doing your your workout probably a lot of it is psychological

01:19:16.720 | but I think Ryan was saying there's a discipline aspect to it yeah I like this

01:19:21.920 | line treating the body rigorously so that it's you're not disobeying your

01:19:26.040 | mind and that's where I think there's probably the big advantage yeah like

01:19:29.280 | you're like I do the sauna I do the cold plunge it's part of it's part of the

01:19:32.600 | identity of being a disciplined person like I am the type of person who takes

01:19:36.160 | care of takes care of my body's willing to do things that are that are

01:19:39.360 | uncomfortable or non-obvious they get some sort of benefit out of it there's

01:19:43.160 | probably a huge psychological mm-hmm to it we have no space my wife's interested

01:19:48.280 | in the idea of a sauna etc but yeah we don't have space at our house right the

01:19:53.800 | second thing that I thought was really interesting is when he was talking about

01:19:57.200 | the network and I would actually ask this follow-up question to you because

01:20:00.520 | you asked him a question about discipline for like a 23 year old you

01:20:04.280 | know that scenario yeah so how would you talk to the 23 year old about you know

01:20:11.280 | creating that discipline but also establishing a network yeah that was

01:20:14.920 | interesting right because he was saying it's really important when you make the

01:20:19.160 | when like he made us leap the daily stoic calm like what he was doing before

01:20:23.960 | it helped that he had an audience but he knew all these people he had all these

01:20:28.000 | contacts the the pull on that I think that's it that's an interesting point

01:20:31.960 | that you know part of what you want to do is you're coming up is accumulate

01:20:35.760 | people who are on your side or on your team and I think a lot of that honestly

01:20:39.040 | is deliver be a good person be an interesting person have integrity

01:20:45.560 | deliver to stuff you say you're going to deliver be organized like be be a man a

01:20:52.040 | character a woman of character basically people remember that and it's actually

01:20:55.320 | pretty rare like most people they can't help themselves there's you know I'm

01:20:59.800 | just hung up on this or I have to mention this or get upset at someone

01:21:02.880 | about this and there's all that type of stuff that comes out if you're in the 10%

01:21:06.360 | of people who is just very reasonable and is able to be upset about something

01:21:09.880 | without making a big deal about something who's able to approach a

01:21:12.320 | social situation from the context of like what's appropriate here gonna be

01:21:16.600 | most effective not like I feel upset about this I can't not mention it or I

01:21:21.840 | have to brag they need to know I did this thing because you know and it just

01:21:25.880 | comes across terribly so there's probably something about in your 20s

01:21:29.480 | being a person that people like to be around yeah like authentic with

01:21:33.920 | integrity deliver you don't drop the ball you just do good work people want

01:21:38.320 | to work with people like that it's one of the things I've learned about

01:21:40.880 | publishing by the way is like that makes a difference mm-hmm and editors can

01:21:46.840 | write in and see if this is actually true or not but I've heard this time and

01:21:49.280 | again if you're a writer or a musician definitely for athletes I've heard this

01:21:54.280 | being someone that people like to work with or be around actually does make a

01:21:58.320 | difference you know I mean you could again if you're great at something

01:22:01.880 | Stephen King is if he was a jerk people are still gonna publish his books but I

01:22:06.320 | do think it makes an epsilon difference then eventually over time your network

01:22:09.520 | gets bigger it's bigger yeah yeah be willing to pull from it the next

01:22:13.880 | takeaway is I loved how he mentioned the Rams GM and the NFL I'm just a huge NFL

01:22:19.560 | fan so I always loved hearing about I know did they won the Super Bowl last

01:22:23.760 | year right last year yeah so they've been in it twice with McVay so Ryan spoke to

01:22:28.580 | them like three years ago all right two years later they win the Super Bowl I

01:22:33.360 | don't want to say trade for Stafford that was a big deal so he he helped

01:22:37.400 | training for Stafford and Ryan Ryan's talk yeah I think I think those two I

01:22:42.160 | do this two things I was telling Jesse off off-air deep work is more popular I

01:22:47.480 | guess in the NBA than the NFL but I did have an opportunity that I was not able

01:22:51.920 | to take advantage of just because I wasn't around we're one of the assistant

01:22:55.360 | coaches of an NBA team that was here to play the Wizards in DC who liked my book

01:22:59.620 | was like hey could you just come over to the team hotel and like talk to them

01:23:04.000 | about deep work and I couldn't do it I wasn't there well I think it goes hand

01:23:07.000 | in hand I mean you have a lot of golfers who are fans of your show and I think

01:23:12.160 | that you know even when we've talked you've answered some of the questions

01:23:15.820 | about time blocking as an athlete I think it goes it's really important

01:23:19.320 | because I mean they have certain things mapped out for them in terms of practice

01:23:23.400 | and lifts and whatnot but then when they're outside of that realm there some

01:23:27.480 | of them can have a tendency to be lost and yeah I think it helps hearing your

01:23:32.440 | message I mean that's what types of scenarios that's what a Mickelson was

01:23:36.560 | saying or no who was it Mickle Roy actually yeah Mickle Roy's the Mac

01:23:39.960 | McElroy sorry Rory but he's the digital minimalism fan yeah yeah and he was

01:23:46.840 | saying it made a big difference yet the outside not just during the game but the

01:23:50.440 | outside of game yeah yeah Ryan was great about that Ryan definitely did more with

01:23:57.040 | professional sports teams and kind of got the word out more that he was doing

01:24:00.560 | things with professional sports team and I think that helped yeah definitely

01:24:04.360 | expand expand his message because a lot of those athletes they want to like

01:24:07.720 | learn you know they're very like motivated yeah and they want to learn

01:24:11.880 | about discipline to these are disciplined guys yeah so yeah and then

01:24:17.120 | the fourth takeaway I found was I really liked his line about knowing what each

01:24:20.960 | thing is for you know he was talking about the office and like distinguishing

01:24:26.200 | work from home and that sort of thing yeah well that that's why we have the HQ

01:24:32.200 | with him that theory of his have a space if you can afford it spend the money on

01:24:37.680 | it have a space that's for the work it's different than home and you know now I

01:24:42.040 | have three spaces because I I have a space for writing at the home and then

01:24:47.560 | here is all for business so that gives me actually a separation between writing

01:24:51.440 | and all the business around our media business to me that's really important I

01:24:54.840 | know Ryan writes at his HQ I write in our study at home that we kind of custom

01:25:01.880 | built to be centered on writing and then I come here for the business side of

01:25:07.300 | things yeah and the writing where I write at home is a room that's kind of

01:25:10.400 | you know so it's all each place has its own place I think it goes hand in hand

01:25:14.360 | with your concept of time blocking too because you say a lot of times go to

01:25:19.880 | different areas for different spaces so and that that's important you know like

01:25:25.320 | I I think I gave you this example how I just went to like a different area for

01:25:29.040 | like a one of my online Spanish classes like a couple weeks ago and it was like

01:25:32.600 | cool because then you get motivated you're in there then you leave and you're

01:25:36.240 | done yeah yeah yeah keep it keep this place is separate so I think that's cool

01:25:40.680 | that's definitely something he said before about his bookstore too is it's

01:25:46.160 | not a super profitable endeavor to run a bookstore so like if you want to become

01:25:50.480 | rich or this or that but I really think the way he thinks about that whole thing

01:25:54.040 | is he he has a building in which lots of things that is useful to his life

01:25:58.880 | happens they sell books he records podcast he writes he has his staff is

01:26:03.100 | there and the bookstore offsets some of the cost of that mm-hmm but it's but

01:26:09.800 | also he just loves that the main benefit I think he gets from the actual selling

01:26:14.120 | of the books it's just that he loves bookstores yeah and like I have a bunch

01:26:17.140 | of books in here and I can bring books to people and curated and I love that

01:26:20.920 | and I think the space of a bookstore is highly motivating and it was really

01:26:24.520 | interesting way to think about it so if you just were doing a dollar and cents

01:26:27.640 | analysis on painted porch as a source of income I'm sure in the Ryan Holiday

01:26:32.920 | Empire that's like yeah way down way down towards this down there with the

01:26:37.640 | mint Oh Mori coins or something like that but if you see it as the bookstore

01:26:42.960 | as the center of his professional existence and a home for all the

01:26:48.480 | existence then suddenly it makes a lot of sense mm-hmm you can make the

01:26:53.000 | Republic a bookstore and it already has a bar built into it we just this is the

01:26:57.520 | thing if only if we had a bigger podcast we talked about it before a big enough

01:27:01.080 | podcast to be able to take over that space that's what that's what we'd have

01:27:05.800 | to do it's a big bar for a bookstore we'd have to cut that in half yeah it's

01:27:10.920 | a big bar for a bookstore maybe a book bar like you just have this would be so

01:27:14.920 | non-profitable if you had like multiple people behind a bar to like to help

01:27:18.920 | curate book selections for you it's like the the opposite we do need a bookstore

01:27:24.760 | in Takoma Park so look if someone is looking to start a bookstore and needs a

01:27:27.680 | partner let me know I think we need one I just can't do that work on my own all

01:27:32.560 | right well we should probably wrap this up but uh there you have it Ryan holiday

01:27:37.400 | by his book or check out his book discipline is destiny if you're near

01:27:41.280 | boss drop Texas you guys stop in on the painted porch bookstore we will be back

01:27:47.120 | next week with what should just be a standard Q&A episode so keep those

01:27:52.520 | questions coming you can find a link to submit questions in the show notes

01:27:57.360 | of this episode if you want to see video of today's episode go to youtube.com

01:28:02.040 | slash Cal Newport media until next time as always stay deep

Ep. 215: Interview With Ryan Holiday | Discipline Is Destiny

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